... and I'm surprised I didn't see it mentioned here. (I could have missed it, though, as there are so many posts to this board now).
On October 25th, 1977, R-9 1689 was delivered to the Branford Trolley Museum. That meant that October 25th, 2002 marked the 25th anniversary of the delivery.
Was that on Anon-e-mouse's cake? I hope you guys sang "happy anniversary" to it :)
--Mark
Nope, but we DID let her stretch her legs out and go for a spin or ten to celebrate. :)
According to Sparky, 1689 made more round trips (nine) that day than ever before. It sure got a good workout and it was great to ride on it again. My pet subway car, I like to call it.
P. S. What was the name of that Italian restaurant in Trolley Square we dined at?
Ristorante Faustini, I believe... that's in Trolley Square, in any event (based on Switchboard and Google searches).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nope.
Restaurant name was Aniello's Pizza
Thanks for the correction, Piotr - I couldn't remember so was just going based on what I could find on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, by the time we went to put her away, EVERYTHING had loosened up nicely. Even the storm doors. The BIG secret to keeping museum pieces in good running order is to RUN them every now and then to knock the corrosion off the moving parts. A look at the rails in Notch-It's pictures showed that the rust had come off the bearings and wheels pretty quickly and the axle grease was finally starting to show on the last couple of runs. She got a GOOD workout and was actually starting to get "frisky" by the end. What a FABULOUS car! :)
And no doubt, it made an inauguaral trip to Short Beach even though the old gal didn't have a trolley pole. If I'm not mistaken, the little Shunter that could was hitched to this monster of a car to supply power...
-Stef
For something that was thrown togather with parts laying around the shop in Montreal in 1920 this little yard tug, now a tool car has kept earning here keep over & over again.
And speaking of October 25 and Branford History,
1977, R-9 1689 was delivered,
1956, PCC 1001 left Brooklyn for Connecticut,
1940, Sparky was born in Brooklyn.
;-) Sparky
That means 1001 was on its way to Branford just days before trolley service in Brooklyn ended for good.
Correctamondo.
And was the first PCC to operate in the State of Connecticut
on October 27, 1956. Yes October 27, another famed natal day
for Sub~Talkers.
;-) Sparky
St Louis did make those cars pritty good.
And we can safely assume 1689 was the first arnine to ever operate in the state of Connecticut.
AFAIK it's the only R-9 in the state. Warehouse Point doesn't have any.
The last one is the best Sparky, mainly because it proves there is someone on board older than I am-----if only for a couple of days.
Karl B is a few years older than you.
Well, two out of three ain't bad. Bustini, bustini. :)
A Belated Happy Birthday!!!!
Jeff,
Thank You
;-) Sparky
Sparky: So October 25 was a great day in transit history. It also is the anniversary of the Charge of the Light Brigade and the birthday of at least one other sub-talker. Happy Belated Birthday.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Thanks,
;-) Sparky
[... Was that on Anon-e-mouse's cake? ...]
Sure was, with frosting highlight to match the Anine's green !
Offically it was a birthday charter of Steve & Sparky.
I just saw a TV commercial for the Cadillac Escalade SUV. It opens on two trains on two different tracks facing each other across a road. The Cadillac speeds across the crossing between the two trains, and as it disappears down the road, the trains are seen both crossing the road, passing each other. The text is something about breaking through to better motoring. Kids, don't try this at home!
Although it is true that in the beginning of the commercial the trains are stationary and there are no flashing lights so there is no explicit race for the crossing, it still sends a bad subliminal message regarding which vehicle should cross first.
Tom
You know that TV like shows people killing other people and like doing drugs and stuff. You don't seem to think that those images are "irresponsible".
Look, I hate to break it to you, but anybody who does something because they saw it on a commercial is stupid enough that he/she will probably die soon anyway. Irresponsible commercials aren't the problem, irresponsible people are.
Improving the gene pool is a painful process. Good people disagree on how hard we should work at it.
>>> I hate to break it to you, but anybody who does something because they saw it on a commercial is stupid enough that he/she will probably die soon anyway <<<
People's behavior is influenced all the time by commercials. That is the purpose of them, and it has been proven over and over that they are effective. Those selling SUVs are particularly good at getting people who will never take them off paved road to buy them by showing them driving over back country trails and along deserted beaches. Advertizing is still as much an art as a science, and therefore the behavior induced is not always only the behavior desired.
Tom
Irresponsible commercials aren't the problem, irresponsible people are.
Yes... And *they* create irresponsible commercials!
I think the manufacture and sale of Cadillac Escalade SUVs is irresponsible regardless of the advertising!
Mark
Hopehully this stunt won't be attempted by someone if there is a sequel to Jackass.
In contrast with some other posters here, I agree with Old Tom that this advertisement is totally irresponsible. Stupid behaviour at grade crossings (or level crossings in my native language) is one of the commonest causes of fatal accidents on railways. Even if General Motors doesn't give a damn about trains, they are encouraging their own car-buying customers in behaviour that could get them killed.
Fytton.
I had the same reaction when I saw it. They are trying to show that the trains "stop" for the Cadillac.
In a related note, just last evening, a 20-year old woman was killed at the Brockton MBTA commuter rail station, crossing in front of an approaching train so that she could catch it. The lights and bells were working properly, according to witness reports.
I agree with you, Tom.
Remember an old NJ Transit billboard ad? It shows a car and a train in close proximity at a crossing and warns drivers: "Even if it's a tie, you lose."
>>> "Even if it's a tie, you lose." <<<
I kind of like the posters on the L.A. Blue Line (which has had quite a few intersection accidents) which show an open wallet with a driver's license next to a wheel on a track, and says "If you are going to cross in front of the train, be sure to carry I.D."
Tom
It's not as if this ad is the first of its kind. An ad for Florida's Natural orange juice that ran for a while a couple of years ago showed a truck with the company logo passing over a non-crossbucked grade crossing as the warning lights were flashing.
We need less rich people and less Escalades so let them try to beat the train.
I wouldn't object to that (a car owner accepting responsibility for his/her own moronic behavior) if it didn't wreck the lives of so many other people (son/daughter/wife/husband/train engineer/conductor etc.)
My first thought when I saw that commercial was that anybody who watched it would understand that it was an intentional exaggeration of the Escalade's prowess....but thinking further, there are some drivers out there who might be emboldened by that portrayal, and that's troubling.
I had no problem with it.
I am proud to say I am smarter than the average commerical.
I'm with you....
I try not to watch much television myself, as it is a huge wasteland.
I almost never watch TV. Aside from an occasional movie, I don't think I've watched any TV since 9/11. (I just don't find it interesting. If I have time to kill, I come here instead.)
But obviously some people out there do watch TV, and some of them are influenced by TV advertising -- otherwise the advertisers wouldn't waste their money. I'm afraid I agree with Tom.
Thank you, Mr. Minnow.
MAD Magazine (remember keeping it out of your parents view because it was sooooo subversive) once featured the following:
"The Average American has a 40 year old body and five year old mind. If he watches television for an entire year he would have a 41 year old body and a four year old mind."
On an actual historical note, in 1976 an executive of the American Broadcasting Companies testified before a Congressional sub-committee that American television is generally aimed at the 8th Grade educational level.
It is now 26 years later and the level of programming has increased, but has not improved one teeny-tiny bit.
Avoid excess TV, engage in a healthy and entertaining hobby, like chasing streetcars and subway trains.
I have seent his commercial MANY times. It's not that the SUV driver tries to beat the trains....or even fails to yield right of way to them.
The gist of the commercial is that when you buy the luxury of the Cadillac Escalade, trains stop to let you go by as though you are more important!!
If that's the case, why not show Queen Elizabeth in her coronation coach and the Pope in his Popemobile defer to the Cadillac SUV driver?
Because they would oject to that misuse of their likenesses, and would not permit it.
The Dutchess of York, Ms. Sarah Ferguson, has signed contracts allowing companies to use her in commercials and print ads(Weight Watchers)
The Dutchess of York, Ms. Sarah Ferguson, has signed contracts allowing companies to use her in commercials and print ads(Weight Watchers)
Before she went to Weight Watchers, she was known as the Dutchess of Pork.
Maybe Weight Watchers could hire Anna Nicole as their new spokeswoman ...
Ouch! :)
Very true.
Anna Nicole isn't slender, but then most of her audience is interested in two assets situated a bit higher and more frontally than her hips...
Anna Nicole isn't slender, but then most of her audience is interested in two assets situated a bit higher and more frontally than her hips...
Have you watched her show? It's sort of like driving past a terrible car wreck on the highway - you know that you shouldn't look, and what you'll see will be very disturbing, but it's humanly impossible not to look.
Yes indeed!
Heh. Tell you how bad it's gotten. Yes, after reading reviews of it being a trainwreck, I too just *had* to take it in. TWICE! :)
The video bumper ("Anna Nicole" tune and the kissyface animation) is *HOT* ... live action, not. I've had some mighty bad cab blessings in my days, but I'm grateful I *never* got stuck with a pig in a poke like her. Woof. :(
Now shame on you - Anna Nichole is a plus sized woman, yes, but I have seen some who make her look like a scarecrow on crack. And Anna is pretty in her own way, so let her be. That creature who hosted the gameshow caled "The Weakest Link" is someone who would cause you to jump out of a window if you woke up in bed naked next to her.
My own hunny is voluptuous ... GEEZ guy, we're talking TRAILER TRASH here ... she'd be RIGHT at home in Rensselaer county, working sailors at the Joseph L Bruno Rensselaer Amtrak Station. I'd bet she'd be Senator Joe's PRIME dungeonlady choice. :)
but let's face it, de beech be butt ugly and selfish as all getout. Those who've met Bingbong know I've got one CLASSY foamerette. Who in their right mind would want el porko? Beauty is only skin deep, but DEEP down Anna Nicole is STILL butt ugly.
I *still* get a stiffy over the animated version kissyface on the program bumper, but the REAL thing ... Ick.
Anna Nichole is a plus sized woman, yes, but I have seen some who make her look like a scarecrow on crack.
Yeah, like the people you sometimes read about, who have to be taken out of their houses by the fire department after a wall is removed.
You said it, sportsman. Omar the tentmaker gets their clothing orders for Easter, Christmas, and other times of the year. Anna is getting there, but she is not there yet. She might have the last laugh, though. After all, she IS getting PAID.
Yep, business as usual it would seem. :)
Sorry, she's just *SO* offensive to me ... like I said, the girly in the animated bumpers would give me a stiffy, but I have a problem (even if I were to go for Viagra) getting brake reservoir ready to roll for such a SELFISH number. Now if ya wanna talk about Sandra Bullock, Angelina Jolie, or biologist Ellen Prager or Ellen Barkin or others, YUM ... but Anna? Souieeeee! grunt grunt grunt ...
Even Joe Bruno wouldn't tie her up. :(
Have another KRISPY KREME ... yeah, CNN's CANDY CROWLEY is a BABE compared to tubby ... :)
Ohhh... THAT'S not nice, true maybe, but not nice.
Peace,
ANDEE
Might work -- given the fact that Anna Nicole has pretty much eaten her way to about the size of a Cadillac Escalate (or maybe even a Ford Excursion by now), the Weight Watchers campaign could be a very long-running one even if she did manage to drop all the excess poundage not made of silicone...
Would my 1992 Chev. Cav. get the same respect ?
Don't think Anna Nichole could fit in a Cavalier, see seems to be spending most of Mr. Marshall's oil money on high-caloric products in an attempt to become a real-life version of Jabba the Hut.
STOP! You're KILLING ME! Hahahahahahaha ...
Correction: A silicone-enhanced Jabba the Hutt....
You can BARELY spot the GE silicone for da flab. And I'm no beanpole. :)
LMAO!
It's gears to the SUV driver attitude. They think they rule the road, are better than anyone else, and are invincible to danger. The Escalade, Expeditions, Navigators, and Hummers (are plentiful here in Snob hills) are the rich snob's ultimate dream vehicle.
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, and if you hit the lottery tomorrow, you'd be running out to buy one, IMO.
Peace.
ANDEE
I'd be running out to get out of my apt with cracking walls, no insulation, and a nasty Centipede problem.
You live at Chambers Street?
Well my living room wall looks like Chambers street, the plaster has cracked and fallen off, exposing a brown, stained, and cracked drywall.
The landlord (aka the slumlord) has not fixed it yet. I gave him an ultimatum to get it fixed this week. If it don't get done I am complaining to the Sea Cliff building dept, not that they will do anything.
At least Chambers street isn't in the middle of nowhere, with once an hour bus service! Chambers looks more appealing every day. :-O
I had a landlord like that once. Fortunately, it was only for about five months, and I knew what I was getting myself into so I was prepared to be persistent. I had considered filing a complaint with the building department as well, but the penalties were so small and the grace periods so long that there would have been little point.
Another good reason not to own a Cadillac - not that I needed another one, mind you, but...
I've seen what happens to a car when it gets hit by a train, from the engineer's point of view... staged collision with an emply vehicle for an Operation Lifesaver film down in North Carolina a few years ago... didn't even feel the impact (and almost didn't hear it) from the cab of the locomotive, but there wasn't much left of that Olds 88, and that was at about 20 mph. Not a pretty sight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Many auto makers have these sort of commercials,Nissan has cars skidding sideways on a wet track or Jeep with the vehicle driving in places not even a 4-wheel drive can go, including a slanted rooftop! They usually flash on the bottom of the screen "Professional driver on closed course,do not attempt" disclaimer to protect themselves from the same types of folks that electronic appliance makers do when they enclose with the owners manual, those pamphlets that have a diagram of someone sitting in the bathtub with a radio or TV on the edge of the tub and a big X over it to try and protect them from liability.
1918...The worst subway accident in city history. 97 passengers are killed, and more than 200 hurt, when a train smashes into a tunnel wall along the old Brighton Beach line. An untrained motorman who had crossed a picket line to fill in for striking train workers lost control of the train near the Malbone
Street station - now the Prospect Place station on the D and Q lines.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the station name was always Prospect Park. Malbone was the name of the street above the tunnel.
I believe you are correct, what is now Empire Boulevard was known as Malbone Street. A small piece of Malbone Street runs off Schenectady Avenue. The station was always Prospect Park, as far my info goes (my Mom's old Brooklyn street guide).
wayne
That piece of Malbone St existing now I don't think was an original part of it.
Correct...the Malbone Street of today is NOT related to the original street of the same name. The 'modern' Malbone is a narrow road that runs one block -- it's basically an alley used by officers of the 71st precinct to park their private cars. The 'street' runs from New York Avenue west and ends after about 500 feet.
On the same block is another old Brooklyn street, Clove Road, that dates back to Dutch settler days and runs between Nostrand & New York Avenues on Empire Blvd. check www.forgotten-ny.com for more details...
Most of Malbone St. was renamed Empire Blvd. However, a small St. that is named Malbone St. as you mentioned remains.
#3 West End Jeff
I've heard that the tunnel is...well....haunted. Wouldn't wan to be around ther at 7PM tonight. There have been stories of crews walking through the crash site feeling things grabbing their ankles, hearing screams and such....
That was just BMTman trying to convince them not to mess with his ride. :)
Hey! That's my secret hide-out you're talking about...watch that!
Guess it's a pretty safe one too.....ever seen/heard/felt anything around 7PM? Car running ok? Just curious, yesterday was Halloween after all....
Yes, the day the name Luciano became part of Railroad Lexicon...and perhaps the day that the title "Lucky Luciano" was first used...;)
Does anyone know what happened to Luciano in the years after the accident?
He seems to have dissappeared into thin air, but you can be sure his 'ghost' is present at Branford whenever any wooden equipment is brought out ;)
I understand he moved down south and got a job with a railroad - this was the result:
Luciano's Career Move
And ended his career in retirement, walking away from #315 after laying it up in 1969 on the Green Bay and Western ... photo of Luciano can be spotted here:
foto caption:
"Three minutes ahead of schedule!"
According to Brian Cudahy, Luciano moved to Upstate and went into the real estate business. He is said to have lived a long life, although no date of death was given.
Thanks for the answer. I'm glad he got out of the train business. Some industries promote their scabs into management for a job well done.
May the victims rest in peace.
It would be interesting to know whether there are any survivors of the wreck still around today. Only people who were children at the time would have a chance, and as it was a rush hour train the great majority of the passengers were adults. As best I can remember from the list of the dead in Brian Cudahy's book, only a few were under 20, with the youngest 13 or so, and there's no reason to believe that the age distribution of the survivors was any different. On the other hand, there were three survivors of the Titanic still alive as of about a year ago, and that was six years earlier than Malbone Street (but probably with more children aboard, however).
I would imagine there are still some people who remember the wreck but who were not on the train. My mother remembered the wreck well (also remembered bringing sandwiches to the boys returned from The Great War). She'd be 92 this month if she was still with us, so it's possible some of her contemporaries are still kicking.
As I had posted previously on threads about this topic, there may still be some people who might remember the wreck assuming that they still have their faculties.
My mom is 89 1/2 and in a nursing home. She was 5 1/2 at the time of the wreck and wouldn't remember it. Unfortunately for her, she is suffering from dementia and only remembers certain things on good days.
As with all of us, memory is a selective thing and if there are still survivors of the wreck how sharp are their recollections? How many of us remember things in our elementary school years?
Therefore it would be wonderful to film a survivor's recollections but I would still want to check certain details against documented facts to be sure that the memory is accurate and not a "good story"
Psychological research has suggested that children have to be about ten years of age to have competent memories of newsworthy events. Children who are younger at the time may remember bits and pieces, but probably cannot recall the "big picture" except in retrospect. Of course, ten is not carved in stone, but in most cases the age of understanding doesn't vary by more than a year either way.
What this means is that while someone born after 1908 may have vivid memories of certain aspects of the Malbone Street Wreck, he or she most likely cannot remember the full import of what happened that day, except of course based on things heard or read in subsequent years. While some people aged 94 or older still are in possession of all their faculties, that is the exception rather than the rule. The bottom line is that not too many people are left today who really understood what happened on November 1, 1918.
It's a near certainty that the opening of the IRT in 1904 has passed out of the realm of human memory.
Psychological research has suggested that children have to be about ten years of age to have competent memories of newsworthy events.
For the most part that is probably true. I know it's true in my case. I think major events will have more of an impact though, even for younger children. I remember some bad newscasts from when I was a kid, as well as events such as the Bi-Centenial when I was only about 5. It just sticks in my head as a major event. I remember quite a bit from that day (amazingly, even the subway ride to the city to see the tall ships).
My mother is in her seventies and grew up one block from the Brooklyn Museum. She ofter used the Shuttle and the Prospect Park (Brighton) Station.
I asked her if she ever heard of the "Malbone Street" subway wreck. Her response was, "Where is Malbone Street?" and, " I didn't know that there was ever a wreck there."
Oh well, she may know history, but not that history.
How many of you heard of the 1960 small airplane crash into an apartment building in Park Slope? I think that was around 7th Ave and Flatbush or somewhere near Grand Army Plaza. Two were killed in their bedroom. (In the afternoon) . Anyone remember that?
I know somebody who does, he showed me it a few years ago, it is quite visible on the buildings still
How many of you heard of the 1960 small airplane crash into an apartment building in Park Slope? I think that was around 7th Ave and Flatbush or somewhere near Grand Army Plaza. Two were killed in their bedroom. (In the afternoon) . Anyone remember that?
If we're talking about the same crash, it was quite a bit more serious. A United DC-8 crashed into Sterling Place after a midair collison with a TWA Constellation. All passengers on both aircraft died, IIRC something like 150 people total. Seven or eight people died on the ground in Brooklyn, and several buildings were destroyed including a church. The Constellation crashed at Miller Field in Staten Island, which is near the site of the present-day New Dorp High School, but there were no people on the ground in the vicinity.
Steven Balz was the little boy I remember from the story my grandmother told me who survived the initial crash due to the snow breaking his fall (or something like that).
Unfortunately, his lungs were seared from the smoke and fire and he later after a few days...(I believe there is a memorial for him at/near the chapel of the Methodist Hospital in Park Slope?). Seem to recall that his father dropped whatever loose change was in his son's pocket in the hospital's chapel and that is part of the memorial...
Steven Balz was the little boy I remember from the story my grandmother told me who survived the initial crash due to the snow breaking his fall (or something like that).
Unfortunately, his lungs were seared from the smoke and fire and he later after a few days...(I believe there is a memorial for him at/near the chapel of the Methodist Hospital in Park Slope?). Seem to recall that his father dropped whatever loose change was in his son's pocket in the hospital's chapel and that is part of the memorial...
You are correct about the Methodist Hospital "coins" memorial. There is an account of it, and of the crash, in the book Flatbush Odyssey by Alan Abel.
If I recall one of the buildings hit by the plane in Brooklyn was the Pillar of Fire Church right on the corner of Flatbush. I was in class at Erasmus at the time and went to see the scene afterwards. There was surprisingly a small amount of damage for what was then a pretty large plane. It went down relatively straight. Compare to the devastation from the planes on 9/11, but of course, they were trying... :(
The story of the boy who survived to soon die was especially sad.
If I recall one of the buildings hit by the plane in Brooklyn was the Pillar of Fire Church right on the corner of Flatbush.
Most appropriate, I'd say!
(brimstone sold separately)
The TWA Constellation that left Dayton Ohio at 9:00 AM on December 16 1960, for LaGuardia, collided in a snowstorm over Staten Island at 10:33AM with the United DC-8 bound for Idlewild from Chicago.The TWA fell in 3 sections over S.I. The United tried to continue but crashed in Brooklyn. All 128 aboard both planes perished. Ironically just 4 1/2 years earlier (June 30,1956) a United DC-7 and a TWA Constellation collided over the Grand Canyon-during the day,with clear skies and no turbulence-also killing all 128 aboard both planes.
I remember reading about it in the New York Daily News National Edition that came out once a week and was delivered to California. At that time the News was the largest circulation in American. I remember reading the crash came around Sterling Street in the fall of 1960. I remember asking myself if the people there had gotten over the loss of the Dodgers three years previous. They had torn down Ebbets Field earlier in the year. Yes I remember the accident.
Demolition of Ebbets Field began on February 23, 1960. They held a funeral wake of sorts. Campy was wheeled out behind home plate one last time and Gladys Gooding played some tunes including Thanks For the Memories (wonder if Bob Hope was there). When it came time for the wreckers to start, the first target was the visiting team's dugout.
Only in Brooklyn!
Psychological research has suggested that children have to be about ten years of age to have competent memories of newsworthy events.
Ten? Competent? I think that requires some interpretation. I have clear memories of quite a few things before age 10 that are provable today. I think it depends on how the subject was received, how important the subject was, whether the people around the child discussed it at any length, the impact on the child, repetition of experience, and so on.
Malbone Street was just before my mother's eighth birthday. She misremembered some details of the wreck, such as that the first car was demolished (it was not) but she may be remembering the impressive (but wrong) newspaper headlines of the time First Car Crashes Into Tunnel Pier and Other Cars Grind It to Splinters.
I think we can confuse between age as an issue and people's natural misremembrance of events. In my reseahes I have had people recount experiences that occurred in their 20s and 30s with date details that could not possibly be right.
It's the old story--ask a husband and wife the details of the exact same event that occurred in their mutual presence and see how they compare.
Got my hands on the Nov 1st issue of "The Chief". Mark Daly writes a article about the current state of negotations. At the end I found:
"In 2000, Mr. (Sonny) Hall was named by Mr. (Willy) James as Local 100's representative to the committee to discuss the NYC Transit- MaBSTOA merger (they part of the TA, but seperate from Local 100).
Mr. (Roger) Toussaint, who has feuded with Mr. Hall since taking office, said he would not continue that arrangement. "No one other then myself negotiates for Local 100," he said.
The article also talks about how the new MTA structure may effect 1,200 engineers & project managers, who are part of Locals 375 & 37.
So what else is new?
Roger T. will not stop until he has Sonny Halls' postition in the TWU (which he won't get).
My predictions:
If there is a transit strike, it will be the finale for Local 100. The penalties will bankrupt them. The members will be at the total mercy of the MTA.
Whether or not there is a job action, Roger T. will be voted out at the next Local 100 election and he will fight the results.
(Side prediction: Roger T. will be found guilty of improprieties within his administration and will be forced to resign).
I'll take that bet, as I don't think Roger is THAT stupid.
There are those within the union that think he's doing a gret job.
Some of them work for the "private" bus companies. Can you imagine that, he leaves them out on the cloths line for a month and one-half, gets them back to work with very little to show for it and some think he's doing a great job ? And some said Willy James was in bed with the company ????
As an old Teamster, afer a week I would have been calling for his head!
There are LOTS of people that LOVE Roger. The majority of members don't expect big numbers but they will not go for a crap contract either.
The in-fighting within the TWU Local 100 heirarchy has gotten serious. Members have been censured, other elected officials have been relegated to positions of insignificance. Recently, an internal memo accused some of Roger's men of sending those who are supposed to be at the negotiations, out into the field to handle arbitrations for less important disiplinary cases. The implications are clear - that Local 100 will negotiate with one voice even if all descenting voices have to be silenced.
Prediction: NYC fiscal crisis and the re-organization of the MTA will change the entire dynamics of the negotiations. TWU members will end up paying for part of their health care to make up the $20 million shortage in the health-benifit trust. That will cause tremendous dissatisfaction among rank-&-file members. Feud between Sonny Hall and Roger T, which almost ended in court last summer, will surface again. The national union will emerge as the savior and Roger T. and his pals will be voted out.
I think if the MTA played their cards right they could get a VERY cheap contract thru. Stepping up discipline (maybe the TSS was an ass but someone tried to write me up for bad uniform, on the way to work) and refusing to put anything on the table just makes Roger look better to many people.
I don't think that management actually wants a 'cheap' contract. Just wants one where both sides live up to it. I don't know about other divisions but in the Division of Car Equipment, the local 100 leadership has done everything to subvert the last contract. BTW - despite their protestations about the contract - they (New Directions) were key in the negotiations.
The funding of the health-benifit trust was tied to the Local 100 leadership committing to productivity gains. They've renegged. They've fought the broad-banding of titles in Car Equipment to the extent that THEY've suggested that the $1.00 per hour bonus paid to those in the broad-banded titles be taken away and the titles restored.
The current battleground is the disciplinary process. The union won some significant concessions in the last contract negotiations - yet local 100 has blocked some of the very provisions that they asked for. I, personally, perfer re-instruction in lieu of discipline where possible. However, local union chairmen object to re-instruction and choose to fight it out in arbitration. Don't blame the TSSs for your union's intransigence.
For what little it's worth (since I'm long gone, and my own personal saga is meaningless today) ... "back to schoolcar" would have been a WONDERFUL alternative to "retreat to your previous title, Mr McAleavey? WHAT previous title? You're a PROBIE even IF you were a conducor before." ... but I *got* my yayas years later.
And THANKS to 1689 at BRANFORD for showing ME the way ... the METHOD by which I was hosed ... the lapping "float" was dead in the car I ran to my demise ... jammed. Bad O-ring on the inlet ... NOW, I finally know what happened to me and to Branford, I'm FOREVER grateful for the answer.
But what saddens me personally is to see the same old tired sheet in TWU ... Michael Quill (the Commie) was the LAST person who seemed to GIVE a chit about the TRUE "rank and file" ... geez. :(
Reinstruction may or may no involve school car at least in RTO.
It also matters when it is presented. In RTO almost nothing is done in the field so an offer of reinstructino may in reality just mean 'I am watching you don't screw up again'. Once Control gets a earful it is a different matter and reinstruction is a rung on the ladder out of your job.
We all have a different transit experience down here.
A few months ago you guys gave me the backup on the fact that you can wrap it around without damaging a good order controller. I was 'reinstructed' on that and I was right, no way i am going up the discipline ladder to get alnog. Or in your neck of the woods, I was on board ordered to make a trip and threatented with OOS by a TD for asking what was my interval, here is a big clue, he was promoted very recently.
As for CED broadbanding I do hear compliants, likely from the same people that ran to get that extra dollar and did not think they would get moved or have to do any extra work.
How long is the management program at the TA for RTO managers?
It should be a very interesting contract season, I do believe that both sides would not mind a strike making it a very dangerous game of chicken.
As for the health benefits have you looked at the charts? NYCT employees cost the TA relatively little in health benefits compared to everyone else already.
For any of you T/O's, have any tales of any Halloween misbehavers who caused trouble along the subway lines. You know, general harrassment and eggs.
What is your favorite PCC car style? Pick one and vote:
1) Air-electric style (1936 to 45)
2) All-electric style (1946 to 52)
3) Kansas City all-electric
4) St. Louis/San Francisco car style (1100's)
5) Boston "Picture Window"
6) Washington DC 1400-1500's style
7) PE double enders
8) Chicago "Pre-war" air electrics
9) Chicago "Post War" all electrics
10) The Clark Equipment BRT # 1000
Some of the choices represent some of the variations in the basic PCC carbody designs, because although PCC cars were a standard design, there were some room to do a little customizing based on a company needs. Some companies wanted a certain style, others had operating chatacteristics that necessitated design modifications. For example, Washington DC PCC's were shorter than the average PCC car, while Chicago's were huge monstrosities. So pick, choose and discuss your chioces.
For the record, my choice was the Kansas City All-electric design. I loved that style when SEPTA ran them (2251-2290), and thought they could be the basis for a modern car. Maybe if SEPTA kept them , they would be used for the 15 restoration, rather than the 21-2700's.
I don't see it up there, but I'll write in for the Washington DC 1000-1100 series cars, the ones that looked like they had white snouts painted on front (that was the flash against the green body), they were so ugly they scared the heck out me as a little kid. I remember them vividly on the 40, 42, 90 etc.
wayne
None of the above !
1 = #1, i.e. 1001 from Brooklyn
2 = is Dallas Cars, double enders
3 = Tandy High Platformers
Why did you list #10, only one ever existed ?
This is mostly influenced by the paint scheme, but the PE double-enders are my favorite.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry for the blasphemy, but I fell in love with the all-electrics as used in Newark. Notably #6 after it was fully restored. I *loved* riding those ...
My sentimental favorite has to be the postwar Chicago cars, both the Pullman and St. Louis variations. The triple rear doors could really swallow a crowd very quickly.
Aesthetically, the Kansas City all-electrics had the most pleasing design. Back in the fifties, I thought the standee windows were "modern", but now they seem fussy, and Kansas City was wise to dispense with them.
My vote is a tossup among the P1, P2, and P3 cars in Los Angeles and Chicago's postwar Green Hornets. Had I grown up in L. A., chances are I would have remembered them, as I was 6 when Los Angeles gave up streetcars and can remember some events from 1963. Chicago is another story. There were two lines still up and running by the time I was born, and 7213's last run took place when I was all of 19 months.
My personal favourite would be the TTC A6 cars, which were basically your standard all electric PCC and they were numbered in the 4300s.
Interestingly enough, up here, the A8 (A15 really, I suspect) cars numbered in the 4500s and later 4600s seem to be the favourite because a lot of people like the simplified design, particularly of the interiors. I don't dislike them personally, but I'm not a huge fan of them either because I particularly like the crank windows.
-Robert King
My personal favorites are the original series of St. Louis Car Co. Air-electrics, notably the Brooklyn 1001-99's, Pittsburgh's first two series, LA's P1's, San Diego/ElPaso's cars, Baltimore's original St. Louis' cars and DC's first series. These were the cleanest, original art deco style design. Later series were diluted design wise a bit by practicality and war time shortages.
This is followed on my favorites list by the wide-body TCRT/Newark/Shaker/Mexico City all-electrics.
Though I didn't do much riding in them, I always favored the appearance of the Boston "Picture Window" cars.
As for riding, the San Francisco 1000 series were my favorites there.
I'll go for (1), especially the Pullman version of the standard air-electric as indicated by Baltimore's 248 cars. Only 1 standard air-electic Pullman PCC survives, 7407 at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum
Actually, there 7407 is the only one that operates. There are two more ex-Baltimore cars that have been sitting on the ground out in the country since 1964 or so.
7407 is the only complete 46 foot Pullman-Standard PCC car in existance. All the other "ex-Baltimore cars" are hulks that have been there for almost 40 years. Remember, a streetcar without trucks is not complete.
I was present at the 1964 scrappings, and cars were not treated gently by the scrappers. Trucks were literally torn from the bodies (the cars were picked up about a foot, a scrapper crawled under and cut the retrainers from the kingpins, causing the trucks to drop to the ground as the car was picked further up. The body was then dropped on to a flatbed. I saw cars go out upright, on their sides and several at each barn went out upside down. It wasn't pretty.)
The bodies bought by private parties were hauled off and literally dropped at the buyer's site.
BSM people have been to every surviving body and most are rotting into the ground. At least one hulk has the truck bolsters protruding above the remains of the floor, which is rotted almost totally away. The body was dropped so hard that the welds that hold the bolsters to the car sides have fractured. The bodies are unsalvageable.
Yup 7407 is complete and a beauty as well.
I guess they didn't count on those long kingpins when they literally dropped them off to their new owners!
John Engleman has also filled me in on the "new" car. Its going to be a great project.
Uh, my favorite PCCs are the ones you can still ride. Especially Mattapan...50 or more years of service. Astounding.
Is it possible to transfer the value from a regular metrocard to a senior citizen card?
Thanks
Sometimes. I think it's only the value. But not the time.
Yes
1) What cars does AMTRAK own that were once used as regular passenger cars in the earlier part of the 20th century?
2) What are the names of the rail companies that owned the cars that AMTRAK now has?
3) At Penn Station NY I have seen an antique navy blue colored, coach (?) car tagged behind an AMTRAK's Commuter train. The other day in my hometown, I saw an unreserved (I think) AMTRAK train with two brown-colored antiques speeding behind AMTRAK's normal coach cars.
4) I have also spotted odd-ball colored, small baggage cars at Harrisburg while driving around the roads there. They bear the 3-leaf logo of AMTRAK near the top on a corner and they are dark, olive-green colored. I have never seen them in use before. Can anyone tell me what they are used for?
5) Any other ODDITIES AMTRAK has?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
1) What cars does AMTRAK own that were once used as regular passenger cars in the earlier part of the 20th century?
The only operational cars are the Heritage fleet of non-Amfleet (ie non-ovoid) Budd cars and the former MetroLiner EMU cars now used as control cabs. The MtroLiners were owned by the PRR and I believe operated by the PC so they count. The heritage units had been sidelined, but has been returned to service. They also own 50 or so former Santa Fe Budd Highliners which are similar to the Pullman built Superliners. There need to be restored to service. I am sure that Amtrak has a fleet of previously owned coaches, but Budd and non-Budd, but all of them would either be in MoW service or scattered around rusting on isolated yard tracks. I don't think they have "vintage" stuff like pre-1930.
2) What are the names of the rail companies that owned the cars that AMTRAK now has?
Any Railroad with stainless steel, post 1950 built passenger equipment.
3) At Penn Station NY I have seen an antique navy blue colored, coach (?) car tagged behind an AMTRAK's Commuter train. The other day in my hometown, I saw an unreserved (I think) AMTRAK train with two brown-colored antiques speeding behind AMTRAK's normal coach cars.
If you give Amtrak mucho $ and pass an inspection then they will haul your private car around on the back of an Amtrak train.
4) I have also spotted odd-ball colored, small baggage cars at Harrisburg while driving around the roads there. They bear the 3-leaf logo of AMTRAK near the top on a corner and they are dark, olive-green colored. I have never seen them in use before. Can anyone tell me what they are used for?
There are a bunch of these at Lancaster, their big NEc maintainence yard, New Haven, Springfield Mass, etc. These are just leftover cars that are cheaper to store than to dispose of. They might be used for misc. storage. They are probably former PC cars.
5) Any other ODDITIES AMTRAK has?
These aren't oddities, they are just junk. The only two "oddities" are the Beach Grove and the Corridor Clipper. The former is a VIP car, the latter a wire inspection car. Both were rebuilt from standard Amfleets.
The link to the Trains.com news story is here.
A CSX conductor was shot in the shoulder early on the morning of October
31 near Buffalo, N.Y., while he was walking alongside his 51-car
westbound train.
: From my e-mail.
You would need to sign up for Trains.com to view current railroading updates from across North America. Signing up is very simple.
Unfortunately there are people who continue to plink at trains.
Is that a federal offense? I assume that, since railroad police are empowered to make arrests in any state the railroad operates, that the offender would go to federal court; correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, I would guess the offender SHOULD go to a court in any case. What if the bullet took another course to the chest or the more critical areas of the body? The shooter would be charged for counts of murder if that was the case. The infamous question lies: why did the shooter do it? What was his intent?
BTW what is plink?
Plink is the sound that the bullet supposedly makes on striking the side of the freight car. Hence plinking. It's perfectly harmless if you don't count the property damage and the people who get shot once in a while.
If I was still on the railroad, I'd shoot BACK. While I understand your valued explanation of what it means, I find it incredible that people would actually DO that and that the sound is so "familiar" as to have a word to it. I realize you meant no harm, but SHEESH. I dunno if you're aware of this or not, but MANY railroad crews carry guns, and they KNOW how to use them.
Shooting at a train is a LITERAL death wish, and this little ditty only serves to reinforce dead railfans as "justifiable homicide" ... it's as bad as "throwers" in my day which is why locomotives were equipped with birdcages ... GEEZ ...
I think, maybe, that we have just demonstrated one of the problems with irony. Let me make my position on this "issue" clearer. Shooting at freight trains is right up there with dropping rocks from highway pedestrian overpasses.
Oh, I knew you weren't on the wrong side of the issue, and yeah, the rocks from the overpass thing has been done also. But imagine the surprise on some miscreant's face when the train shoots back! :)
"Unfortunately there are people who continue to plink at trains.
Is that a federal offense?"
It certainly is the state offense of reckless endangerment.
An easy google search gives this for NY State:
Under our law, a person is guilty of Reckless Endangerment in the First Degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, that person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person.
Unfortunately there are people who continue to plink at trains.
Is that a federal offense?
It certainly is the state offense of reckless endangerment.
An easy google search gives this for NY State:
Under our law, a person is guilty of Reckless Endangerment in the First Degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, that person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person.
It could be argued that intentionally shooting at a moving train, especially at the locomotive, could be attempted murder.
What SOME might not realize until it's too late is that BECAUSE of the "Homeland Security" alerts, it is NOW an "act of terrorism." Free winter vacation at Guantanamo with deluxe accomodations.
If you don't want to sign up for Trains, or if you have a slow internet connection and Trains takes forever to download, the story is still available here.
Trains.com news stories:
Amtrak credit rating gets boost from Moody's
Moody's Investors Service on October 29 confirmed Amtrak's A3 bond
ratings, a move that pulled the financially troubled railroad off the
credit agency's watchlist and away from a possible downgrade.
NEWS STORY
Full Acela Express service restored between Boston and New York
Amtrak this week restored a full slate of nine Acela Express round-trips
between Boston and New York City, and launched an ad campaign to tout
the service.
NEWS STORY
It's about time my Acela Express Trainsets came back into full service.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
They aren't. There are plenty of Metroliners between DC and New York (not like they are much slower than the Acela).
According to "Under the Sidewalks of New York," a connection was planned between the Fulton Street El and the DeKalb Avenue Junction, and the many tunnels at DeKalb Avenue were designed to accomodate that connection. It was referred to as the Ashland Place Connection
What was that? Is there an empty trackway down there somewhere?
Not sure, Larry, but IIRC (and I COULD BE WRONG on this) they changed directions and sent the line south onto St.Felix Place instead of straight ahead on Fulton Street. Might be room for two trackways in there after where the 4th Avenue turns off onto Ashland going south. These may have been the route of the intended connection. I think with the Brighton plus the 4th avenue they may have already maxed out the capacity before adding any Fulton El service. Again I may be wrong on this, some of the oldtimers may have more and better details.
wayne
Any evidence of trackways and tunnel headings for the Ashland Place connection were obliterated when the flying junctions were added south of DeKalb Ave. in the 1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
(Any evidence of trackways and tunnel headings for the Ashland Place connection were obliterated when the flying junctions were added south of DeKalb Ave. in the 1950s. )
You mean DeKalb had crossover junctions before that?
I went through a lot of effort to modify the map for BEFORE, so you BETTER appreciate this:
BEFORE
AFTER
The after picture is one of Peter Dougherty's maps on this site. The before picture is a modification of that same map, by me.
Hmmm. It looks like the 4th Avenue express went via tunnel, the 4th Avenue local went via bridge, and the Brighton could do either, but there were really only four tracks going through rather than six.
Cruel irony. Thanks to the Manhattan Bridge, the pre-1950s set up would have worked just fine for the past 20 years. And the trains probably moved through faster.
There is at least one, possibly two errors in pig's drawing each eror multiplied by two (once NB , once SB).
First understand that the arrangement of tracks within DeKalb itself was (from outer wall), Fourth Avenue Local (now Bridge), Brighton Line (now tunnel), Fourth Avenue Express.
The north switches were as follows: double crossovers as shown (Brighton<->Bridge/Tunnel, Fourth Avenue Local<->Bridge/Tunnel) but the other switches were the opposite dierction of what is shown. They were Tunnel<->Fourth Avenue Express (Bypass). This is how the Culver-Nassaus were able to emerge from the tunnel, yet skip DeKalb. I think these was the only three-way passenger operation switches on the subway.
There appears to be a partial error in the suggestion that Brighton trains split north of Dekalb, with one tunnel (the one that now goes to the bridge track) east of another tunnel to the bypass track (the one that now goes to the tunnel track).
My memory is that there was only the one tunnel running directly into what is now the DeKalb tunnel track, with no switches whatever between Atlantic and DeKalb on the Brighton. Although I can't find it in documentary evidence (but my records are hardly complete), apparently there was once a switch which allowed Brighton-Nassaus to bypass DeKalb by switching over in the short area where the Brighton and Fourth Avenue Express tracks run side-by-side. It would seem this switch was removed in the very earliest stages of reconfiguring DeKalb.
On the issue of the Ashland Place connection, this was part of the BMT's plans to operate efficient services to downtown via its loop system, and to give Fulton Street trains entrance to midtown. The City would probably never have allowed them to complete this (IMO) unless the City gave up its Unification plans and there were an entirely new attitude in city government other than the general Hylan/LaGuardia position. Things might have been different if Jimmy Walker hadn't been so corrupt and had been able to serve a full two or three terms, and there were no Depression and so on, and so on, and so on...
I'm always glad to see someone interesting himself in historical arcana, Larry, but is there any other motive in your recent historical questions?
(I'm always glad to see someone interesting himself in historical arcana, Larry, but is there any other motive in your recent historical questions?)
You don't imagine me as someone interested in history for history's sake? Well, you're right.
You're all aware of the disasterous LIRR to Cranberry proposal. In addition to making he F wait behind the G at 4th, the C at Jay, and the C again as it waits behind the A at W 4th, the "extra capacity" in the Rutgers Tunnel is only extra if you assume the Mahattan Bridge is fully functioning for the next 100 years plus. As you know, I'm dubuious.
In any event, if the bridge were fully open, and we had to lose tunnel capacity, the capacity to lose (from Brooklyn's point of view) is the Montigue. Twelve TPH is plenty there for Brooklyn, and additional Broadway Locals from the north could relay at Whitehall. As for the JMZ, as you know I think 12 8-car Vs taking the place of the J/Z would be better deal for Broadway Brooklyn riders -- 2/3 of whom switch at Essex -- than the current arrangement. The M train could relay at one the west side of Chambers.
That leaves the Nassau Street side for the Jamaica suburban express, with up to 18 trains per hour from Jamaica and an easy cross platform transfer to an empty train for LIRR riders. The train could roll into the east side of Chambers (with its own platform), proving three well-posistioned stops. As I've said previously, I understand the suburban objection to changing at Atlantic and Grand Central. Unlike the PATH transfer at Newark and Hoboken, you have to get on an already crowded train in the middle of its run, with the dwell time of previous stops adding variability. This would be different.
Better yet, from there the "Snobway" could roll out the pre-Christie Manny-B tracks into what could become the express tracks of the Second Avenue Subway, and go non-stop up and over to Grand Central. It is only by aligning interests with the powerful from outside the city that we'll ever get that thing built.
That leaves a couple of problems. What about the Manny B? Well, if the Rutgers-DeKalb connection were built at the same time Brooklyn would be better off than it is now if one half of the bridge were once again lost, though still dead meat if it all was. That's a "break even."
Second, how do you get from the LIRR tracks into the Montigue Tube?
You're all aware of the disasterous LIRR to Cranberry proposal.
/* Begin rant mode *
This (the proposal, not you) is the ranting of non-technical people who like to draw lines on maps. I don't consider any of these proposals serious. In fact, I don't consider a lot of the proposals for which they pay consulting firms millions of dollats to "study" serious either. Perhaps we should be grateful for the "interests" who give us their brainstorms for free, when they could charge big bucks for them, if only they could bend the right ears.
/* End rant mode *
That leaves a couple of problems. What about the Manny B? Well, if the Rutgers-DeKalb connection were built at the same time Brooklyn would be better off than it is now if one half of the bridge were once again lost, though still dead meat if it all was. That's a "break even."
Second, how do you get from the LIRR tracks into the Montigue Tube?
In my semi-professional opinion, being involved in details of the system and the particular area you're describing for many decades, there is no excess capacity anywhere in the area that could be effectively used for any non-subway purpose.
Truth is, people are trying to accomplish something om the cheap, but these things rarely work. If, for some reason, there were a tunnel crossing that were completely unused (as, for the present, the 63rd Street tunnel lower level) it would make sense to see how it could be used effectively. But this is not the case.
I think the issue must be cast as a question of what service is provided. Talking about commuter rail vs. subway has an underlying demagoguery that obscures the broader issues, because the one thing city riders and suburbans riders have in common is that they are mostly just people who use mass transit on a daily basis to get to work, shopping and recreation. Therefore, we need to ask if its in the broad public interest to provide a new mainline to distribute these riders to city destinations, instead of depending on often-overburdened subway lines to do the work.
If the real issue were suburban snobs who didn't want to rub elbows with the proletariat, I would be the first to say fuhgeddaboutit.
If the job should be done, it should be done right--build all new facilities to carry the suburban trains and leave the subway be. This might mean only to the financial district or it might mean a loop up to 63rd Street that Metro North could also participate in.
If the job shouldn't be done, it shouldn't be done. Period.
It might amuse you to know that one of the first letters-to-the-editor I ever wrote was to The New York Times in opposition to the 40-years-ago idea to route LIRR trains (than 60 feet or so long) into the Brighton Line at Atlantic Avenue, through DeKalb, and through the Nassau Loop. I cited provisions of the Dual Contracts that prohibited operation of non-City services.
The first paid piece of writing I ever did was about the plans for Christie Street. It was for the New York Journal American and I was paid $25, not a bad sum in those days. I wonder what Hylan would have thought if he knew that he and I were both connected to Hearst. ;=)
(It might amuse you to know that one of the first letters-to-the-editor I ever wrote was to The New York Times in opposition to the 40-years-ago idea to route LIRR trains (than 60 feet or so long) into the Brighton Line at Atlantic Avenue, through DeKalb,
and through the Nassau Loop. I cited provisions of the Dual Contracts that prohibited operation of non-City services.)
I guess if you were against it then, it logically follows that you are against it now. The RPA proposed a new tunnel as part of two proposals, but business interests would likely oppose. Unable to stop spending on Medicaid, they try to stop it where they can.
If they want to do something on the cheap, perhaps they should run extend the LIRR to the waterfront, and have folks cross to Lower Manhattan via ferry.
(It might amuse you to know that one of the first letters-to-the-editor I ever wrote was to The New York Times in opposition to the 40-years-ago idea to route LIRR trains (than 60 feet or so long) into the Brighton Line at Atlantic Avenue, through DeKalb, and through the Nassau Loop. I cited provisions of the Dual Contracts that prohibited operation of non-City services.)
I guess if you were against it then, it logically follows that you are against it now. The RPA proposed a new tunnel as part of two proposals, but business interests would likely oppose. Unable to stop spending on Medicaid, they try to stop it where they can.
Well, over the course of 40 years ago, one does get new and different perspectives on things, and situations change as well, but, yes, you are correct, I am still against the plan now. The basic things I learned about transportation then are, I think, mostly as valid in 2002 as they were in 1962, or for that matter, 1922. But, before someone assumes I intend to bring back horsecars (except in Prospect Park, of course) new times require new ways of looking at solid ideas.
If they want to do something on the cheap, perhaps they should run extend the LIRR to the waterfront, and have folks cross to Lower Manhattan via ferry.
I think ferries are underutilized as a distributor in a compact area like lower Manhattan. Still, I think this could only be a stopgap. A Brooklyn shore terminal would necessarily have to be pretty deep if it were not to preclude a future tunnel.
As you know, I am pretty upset about the two sets of political rules that seem to apply to urban dwellers/minorities/immigrants and the suburban middle class. Arranging your life to qualify for welfare is freeloading, giving money to your kids to qualify for Medicaid (so the kids don't have to pay for you) is never questioned. School spending is never high enough in the suburbs, a lower level of spending in NYC is waste. Etc.
Nonetheless, there are many folks who are upset about these inequities who refuse to see the other side of things, and see inequities where there are none. I can accept that having to get on an already-packed train at Atlantic Ave, having already traveled a long distance, is not a quality commute. So I can understand the advantage of transferring to an empty train at Jamaica.
What bothers me is the complete disregard for the effect of this on the residents of Brooklyn and their needs. It is a non-issue for those pushing the proposal. They think Brooklyn's pols can be bought off, since they all drive anyway, with a little patronage. And they are probably right.
Nonetheless, there are many folks who are upset about these inequities who refuse to see the other side of things, and see inequities where there are none. I can accept that having to get on an already-packed train at Atlantic Ave, having already traveled a long distance, is not a quality commute. So I can understand the advantage of transferring to an empty train at Jamaica.
But a lot of subway commuters also have to get on already-packed trains. What makes LIRR commuters more deserving of seats?
(But a lot of subway commuters also have to get on already-packed trains. What makes LIRR commuters more deserving of seats?)
On the subway, those who get the crowded trains also get the shorter commutes, while those with longer rides get seats. There is a kind of rough justice there. Those riding the LIRR have already had a long ride.
Those with the shortest commutes pay the most per mile. I don't think anyone has a right to a seat, but if that right belongs to anyone, it belongs to those who pay the most per mile. Especially since crowding standards on commuter rail systems are already very generous compared to crowding standards on the subway. The 1 train I boarded this morning (and it was about as crowded this morning as it is any Sunday morning) was more crowded than a typical LIRR rush hour train.
Nobody forces LIRR commuters to be LIRR commuters -- they're welcome to move to the city if they prefer. Each person who makes that move slightly reduces the strain on the overall transportation network. So why do we give people incentives to move out of the city?
The big incentive for many is owning your own home. Sure mortage and property taxes may be a little more than what you pay for rent IF you choose wisely...and co-ops are never really 'yours.' Plenty of decent land to build decent homes in the South Bronx...only the incentive is missing! My rent controlled apartment in Manhattan is not inexpensive and offers me nothing now...I'd accept the first buy-out and make some changes. CI Peter
That's an incentive to some and a disincentive to others, but whatever it is, it's intrinsic. Of course people are going to make decisions based on stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with that.
But when we start taking money out of the hands of group X and placing it into the hands of group Y -- and then argue that group X should give even more to group Y -- one might expect such a subsidy to counteract an opposing hidden subsidy. Not so here -- we've set up our transportation system to complement the hidden subsidies with more subsidies.
And we wonder what happened to NYC in the 70's.
Thanks David. The subsidies are uncountable...they are everywhere not to be found. So at OUR demonstration last week, I had an arguement with one of those 'preserve the fare' people...their claim is that other cities have a much higher mass transit subsidy than NYC.
My arguement is that despite the conditions of travel, $ 1.50 is a cheap ride for the available LONGER DISTANCES without zoning systems.
Those with the shortest commutes pay the most per mile. I don't think anyone has a right to a seat, but if that right belongs to anyone, it belongs to those who pay the most per mile.
Those who pay the most per mile to ride the subway are the very commuters you'e complaining about, paying full fare to travel from Atlantic Avenue or Penn Station to their work destinations.
Especially since crowding standards on commuter rail systems are already very generous compared to crowding standards on the subway. The 1 train I boarded this morning (and it was about as crowded this morning as it is any Sunday morning) was more crowded than a typical LIRR rush hour train.
The average Long Island Rail Road commuter who also takes the subway pays five times the average non-student subway fare. (Source: Metropolitan Transportation Authority estimate for 2002)
Nobody forces LIRR commuters to be LIRR commuters -- they're welcome to move to the city if they prefer.
And you're welcome to move to the suburbs. They're not all expensive, but the price of the commute might break you.
All of this misses the important point that The Politics of Resentment is a bad way to frame public policy. New York City is not the premier economic center of the country because it's been kissed by the Commercial Fairy, especially in an era when more and more business can be done from your desktop, and from businesses located outside core cities. Transportation made the City what it is. The more inconvenient you make access to the City for people who work and do business, the more likely the City will lose its position.
People forget the 70's awfully fast, when a lot of the land in prime areas of the city was more valuable as parking lots than commercial space.
Those who pay the most per mile to ride the subway are the very commuters you'e complaining about, paying full fare to travel from Atlantic Avenue or Penn Station to their work destinations.
Larry was arguing that suburban commuters shouldn't have to stand on the subway since they've already had a long ride on the train. I responded by treating the entire ride as a unit, as he was. Now you want to split it up again. If you want to argue that suburban riders deserve different treatment (and I realize that it's Larry, not you, who made that argument, but you seem to be advancing it), you can't split it up.
Besides, some of the busiest stations in the subway system are on the Upper East Side and Upper West Side, and many of their passengers ride a shorter distance than from Atlantic Avenue to lower Manhattan. Their trains are more crowded, too, and they have fewer alternatives to choose from. They pay $1.36 for a single ride or $63 for a month's worth. I don't know if LIRR monthly ticketholders are eligible for discounted MetroCards (I thought they were, but I can't find any mention on the LIRR website), but Metro-North monthly ticketholders can get access to NYCT for $25, a 60% discount.
The average Long Island Rail Road commuter who also takes the subway pays five times the average non-student subway fare. (Source: Metropolitan Transportation Authority estimate for 2002)
And the average Long Island Rail Road commuter who also takes the subway rides over five times the distance of the average non-student subway ride.
A common ride from my home station at 86th Street is to Times Square. Let's say that's three miles (it's actually closer to two). It costs 45 cents per mile for a single ride or $21 per mile for a 30-day unlimited. At that rate, assuming similar crowding conditions, the LIRR fare from Woodmere to Penn Station (20.4 miles) should be $9.18 one-way or $428.40 for 30 days. A one-way ticket actually costs only $6.25 or $4.25 (21-30 cents per mile) and a monthly costs $135 ($6.61 per mile). At those rates I should be paying 90 cents or less for a single trip to Times Square or $19.83 per month -- in a padded seat.
And you're welcome to move to the suburbs. They're not all expensive, but the price of the commute might break you.
Sorry, not interested. I lived for 3.5 years in a quasi-suburban setting, although I could walk anywhere I needed to go on a daily basis and the bus service was excellent by suburban standards. My apartment was dirt cheap but I couldn't wait to get out of there.
Even if I'm willing to subsidize others' transportation (because it's the only way I can live the lifestyle I want to live), that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it -- or that I have to think it's good policy. Because it's very bad policy.
All of this misses the important point that The Politics of Resentment is a bad way to frame public policy. New York City is not the premier economic center of the country because it's been kissed by the Commercial Fairy, especially in an era when more and more business can be done from your desktop, and from businesses located outside core cities. Transportation made the City what it is. The more inconvenient you make access to the City for people who work and do business, the more likely the City will lose its position.
Exactly. Instead of spending money first on transportation for the suburbs, spend money first on transportation for the city. Why? Greater bang for the buck. The same money will move more people on the subway than on commuter rail. And improving transportation in the city will encourage people to live in the city, where they too can be efficiently served by the subway.
People forget the 70's awfully fast, when a lot of the land in prime areas of the city was more valuable as parking lots than commercial space.
I grew up in the 70's. I remember the 70's all too well. The 70's happened because, in the preceding decades, we built a lot of underpriced transportation facilities to the suburbs while allowing the city's transportation facilities to rot. I don't want the 70's to happen again, even if this time the catalyst is the LIRR rather than the LIE.
(Besides, some of the busiest stations in the subway system are on the Upper East Side and Upper West Side, and many of their passengers ride a shorter distance than from Atlantic Avenue to lower Manhattan. Their trains are more crowded, too, and they have fewer alternatives to choose from.)
That's an argument to build the Second Avenue subway which, despite what Ron in Bayside might say, is likely to be pulled once the election is over "we must defer our dreams" (but others must not?). As for the west side, there is capacity to add trains on the IND local, but folks won't walk over and ride it.
(People forget the 70's awfully fast, when a lot of the land in prime areas of the city was more valuable as parking lots than commercial space.0---- I grew up in the 70's. I remember the 70's all too well. The 70's happened because, in the preceding decades, we built a lot of underpriced transportation facilities to the suburbs while allowing the city's transportation facilities to rot. I don't want the 70's to happen again, even if this time the catalyst is the LIRR rather than the LIE.)
There is a point there. The rest of the state is trying to kill the city with differential school aid and tax burdens, not transportation policies. But transportation is the one reason that everyone with a child doesn't leave.
That's an argument to build the Second Avenue subway which, despite what Ron in Bayside might say, is likely to be pulled once the election is over "we must defer our dreams" (but others must not?).
Or to build the 7 train extension, or to spend money widening bottlenecks, or to spend money simply running more service.
(I'm not going to take sides on what's going to happen on 2nd Avenue, but let's just say that I'll believe it when I ride it.)
As for the west side, there is capacity to add trains on the IND local, but folks won't walk over and ride it.
Of coure not. It's poorly located, it has relatively infrequent service, and it doesn't lead to the most useful transfer points.
There is capacity to add trains on the IRT local, too. The 1/9 currently runs at about 5-minute headways, at least on paper. The sticking point seems to be terminal capacity at 242nd, but there are at least six places other than 242nd that the extra locals can terminate.
There's also capacity to add trains on the IRT express, but at the expense of direct Flatbush-East Side service. (The number of Flatbush trains can remain and the number of East Side trains can remain; it's the through routing that cuts into West Side capacity.)
But adding service costs money.
There is a point there. The rest of the state is trying to kill the city with differential school aid and tax burdens, not transportation policies. But transportation is the one reason that everyone with a child doesn't leave.
Don't get me wrong -- the city's transportation system, while imperfect, is quite good. But city residents are still expected to bear the brunt of many of the transportation costs incurred by suburban residents. That chases some people away to the suburbs -- and leaves those of us who remain with even more suburban transportation costs to worry about.
The first paid piece of writing I ever did was about the plans for Christie Street. It was for the New York Journal American and I was paid $25,
So what did you think about Christie St at the time?
I thought it was a bad idea to route the bulk of BMT southern division service up 6th Avenue with no Broadway service at all for the Brighton and West End Lines. I haven't changed my mind.
I've made the appropriate modifications. Check to see.
I have a question though. I've seen a map (unfortunately, I don't rememember where, hence my own effort here) showing the old configuration as I originally drew it.
Why did the BMT build the junction northbound after Myrtle, but not southbound? Or is the presence of the northbound junction another error?
The flying junction on the northbound side after Myrtle Ave. was there before the reconstruction, but the place where the two legs joined on the east (now 6th Ave.) side was moved further north (presumably to allow the tracks to accommodate 600' long trains. On the southbound side, there was just a double crossover north of Myrtle Ave. station (missing from the drawing).
-- Ed Sachs
I wasn't looking at the part north of Myrtle, but Ed Sachs already answered your question that there was a double crossover north of Myrtle on the southbound side so that trains from Nassau Street or Broadway could eitehr make or skip DeKalb and Myrtle.
The flyunder northbound was the reason that no BMT Standard train was to be run with more than one BX unit ... the grade was just too much. Yet the Standards were surprisingly peppy considering that they were no powerhouses (to be polite).
So, in view of the updated diagram, the simplest pattern with the old tracks would have been:
Brighton - Montague - Broadway Local / Nassau St
4th Av Local - Bridge South Side - Nassau St
4th Av Express - Bridge North Side - Broadway Express
Unca Fred would like that...
See above for second modification including crossover north of Myrtle.
Critique as necessary!
I recently re-did the before map. It was lost to a file corruption.
If you haven't seen it before, see it now!
Paul Matus's comment about the connector from the Brighton just north of Atlantic Avenue station to the DeKalb by-pass is correct. I rode the Brighton Special a number of times on that track. It was perhaps the very first casualty of the DeKalb rebuilding.
But I don't understand what he's talking about when he mentions the double crossovers and bypass-to/from-tunnel north of old DeKalb--the drawing is accurate.
The only thing the DeKalb rebuilding accomplished, except for longer platforms and closing of the curved platforms on the south end, was to move all the delays getting into the station from the southbound side to the northbound side, though when the Bridge was still in full operation, there seemed to have been a lot of delays while Broadway trains yielded to Sixth Avenue service.
The rebuild was another example of favoring Manhattan over Brooklyn--the rebuilding separates trains by Manhattan route northbound while the Brighton/Fourth Avenue separation occurs after DeKalb rather than on the platforms.
BTW, for trains coming out of the tunnel, home signal indications were green or yellow over green for Brighton (straight ahead), over yellow for Fourth Avenue (to the outside wall), and over blue for the bypass track to the left.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
But I don't understand what he's talking about when he mentions the double crossovers and bypass-to/from-tunnel north of old DeKalb--the drawing is accurate.
Pig corrected the drawing based on my comments--and it is now accurate. Is that what you're referring to, Ed?
It's possible I only got the corrected version, so that would clear up my confusion.
Ed Alfonsin
No. On the northbound, right where the bridge and tunnel tracks diverge, there is a bellmouth coming from the south/east. It seems if both Ashland and the existing Flatbush line had been built (it may have actually been one or the other), then the Ashland line from the Fulton would have fed into the bridge and the Flatbush from Atlantic Av. would have fed into the tunnel, with a diamond crossover (the current "wye" diverge is acually apart of what would have been).
IIRC on the Brighton Line leaving DeKalb, before the train makes the right hand turn to enter Atlantic, there is a turn-off there that I think was to have been the connection to the Fulton Ave El. I have no idea how far that tunnel goes. There is some machinery there to block the view.
The IRT was supposed to have had a connection before the line goes into Nevins St. I think that was to have gone along Lafayette Ave. But that whole section of Brooklyn has different provisions for different lines that for one reason or another didn't happen.
That makes sense, since its under Ashland place there...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/promo11_02/index.html
"Buy MetroCard® using your MasterCard® card and you could enjoy dinner for two at a Zagat Survey top-rated restaurant every month for an entire year!"
Now this something to talk about! :)
Maybe SEPTA should do that here. Imagine eating at Susannah Foo's or Le Bec Fin every month for free for a year.
Just being able to get a reservation at one of those places without being on a long waiting list is a miracle.
There was also a nationwide contest on Clear Channel Radio. The 50th person nationwide would win $50,000. The odds are about as good as winning 12 dinners at a Zagat rated restaurant. Slim if at all.
$50,000? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOO!
Tragic story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/columnists/ny-lirr1101,0,1837616.story?coll=ny%2Dlinews%2Dfeatured
Sad story indeed, but what the hell was he doing, lying on the tracks? Did he want to take a nap? Give me a break!
Forgive me for putting it this way, but I'm sure some enterprising barrister will get a jury to penalize LIRR for not tucking him in. :(
Common sense would dictate that even "F. You Bailey" couldn't make a case against the LIRR. Then again, it's been said that no one ever lost money betting on the stupidity of the general public.
Yo! We'll find out in four more days. Moo. :)
Well, I have to agree with you there. NY Governor's race has me scratching my head. Hillary appearing with Pataki means McCall is dead. He should be able to find work as an employment agency exec. But if you believe Galisano's ads, pataki should be making license plates instead of appointing the DMV Commish.
N.J. doesn't suprise me. Lousenburg (the resurrected mummified fossil) will be elected and the democratic proces will be set back an entire century in the Garbage State. Minnesota voters seem to be a little less gullible. The fossil, Mondale is fading fast after the initial spike in popularity. Control of the Senate is at stake. Democrats are desperate. Unfortunately, their bullpen is weaker than the one the Mets have.
As I keep trying to explain to SeaBits Fred when he slaps that "L" label on me, Noo Yawk's a WEIRD place. The REPUBS are the "tax and spenders" while the dems are the tightwads ... OUTSIDE of NYC where standard deviations still apply. Paturkey's just a hand puppet, always was ... BRUNO is our leader and he's an OLD style Rockefeller Liberal. Check your school taxes and county tax medicaid adjustment this year if you doubt me. BRUNO pulls the strings throughout which is why we're in such a FREAKING MESS.
I think Hillary pretty much sums it up, yet the a$$hole's going to get reupped. And when the bill that boy runs up comes due in January, folks are gonna flip OUT when they see their PATAXI. :)
But yeah, we has MET the enema and he is US. Heh. Vote for Goober, he'll put Galisano BACK on the mothership.
Actually, in New York it's whoever's in power for more than one term becomes so indebted to the special interests they become the "tax-and-spend" person, while the other side runs on fiscal responsability. Then if they do get into office (see "Pataki, George") they start courting the people who can get them the most money and votes, even if their political philosophies seem 180 degrees apart (see "Rivera, Dennis").
What's going to be interesting is seeing where Pataki goes after this election -- outside of replacing Tommy Thompson at HHS in the Bush administration, there's no way his current record is going to let him go anywhere in national Republican politics, and if he runs for a fourth term he will have a tough time against AG Elliott Spitzer, who is almost guarenteed to seek the job (unless the husband of George's new bud Hillary wants it...)
That's OK ... when Selkirk twirls the political turnstyle in two years, we'll all be here laughing our bolts off over VICE PRESIDENT RUDY snubbing the shrub. But yeah, you've got it right. But ya gotta admit, if you WATCH the numbers like we do up here in "Capital Land" (yes, Albanians spell "Capitol" as "Capital" and it's CORRECT! [?!?!?!]) PaTAXi has outspent CUOMO ... never thought I'd see the day.
Then again, Bruno's out for a legacy ... this link will DIE overnight Sunday night, but for now, it's still lit ... this is MISTER Shake down Amtrak so they had to cancel a BUNCH of upstate Amtrak trains (*OUR* subway) to pay for his phucking train station ...
Bruno engineers legacy
Just check out the BIG BRASS CLANGERS this sc*mbag has ... and his "tech vallee" STILL can't get DSL, much less TECHNOLOGY ... and ya wonder why I'm so cynical? Hell ... even MARIO would have done the state better than Bruno and his handpuppet (which he actually takes out of his pants every now and then) ... Bruno's butt buddy, Goober.
yes, Albanians spell "Capitol" as "Capital" and it's CORRECT! [?!?!?!]
Last I checked, a city is a "capital" and a building is a "capitol."
But do they know that in Albany?
You'd THINK that any of the downstate papers would have DARED to print what our local Hearst outlet did in the previous link. YEP, ***EACH*** of the New York newspapers ALSO got to suck at the state teat in order to rejoice in their Paturkey seven course meal.
But DO pass it on while it lasts, the ARROGANCE is stunning. And THIS is the man who puppeteers the state government, with Paturkey being his Punch and Judy show. And the phucker's going to get re-elected because of the diversionary sidewalk act. Geez ...
Four more days of Selkirk ranting, then I put the handpuppet BACK in the pants for just a little under two years, I promise. :)
(Control of the Senate is at stake. Democrats are desperate. Unfortunately, their bullpen is weaker than the one the Mets have.)
The Democratic Party has been brain dead since the Great Society era. To the extent it has leaders, it is those from those era, and to the extent it caters to interests, it is the non-profits formed to take public money at that time (along with public employee pensioners supported by the remaining "machine" Democrats). Aside from careerists and opportunists, and those who don't like Republicans, there is nothing else where.
The Republicans, however, have been brain dead since the early 1980s. They seem mentally active by comparison, because the body is still warm.
And Ronald Reagan was his OWN favorite vegetable.
DAMNED sad, but entirely *TRUE* ... maybe it's time to reconsider the DRAFT ... for OFFICE ... "The President of the United States, with this subway token affixed to this letter WELCOMES you to Congress." Failure to report is punishable by ten years imprisonment and a $500,000 fine.
I've always felt that the BEST legislation is provided by 100-500 crazy guys and gals, sealed into an edifice with reinforced concrete for a term, issued ONE index card and a box of crayons. Those serving would be entitled to EXCHANGE index cards and crayons with one another, and when the index cars were fully marked on all sides regardless of the trading involved, would issue forth LAW ... then be sent home.
As long as we're PAYING these sc8mbags to "generate law" then we might as well legalize prostitution. It's the SAME thing, only the hookers at least put a SMILE on your face, however briefly. 'word.
(As long as we're PAYING these sc8mbags to "generate law" then we might as well legalize prostitution. It's the SAME thing, only the hookers at least put a SMILE on your face, however briefly. 'word. )
Other states are not as bad as ours. Even the federal Congress is not as bad as our state legislature.
One example. In Michigan, everyone knew the system of school finance was inequitable and unfair, but it never changed because special interests would rally people against any and all alternatives. So what did they do? The repealed the entire school finance system, effective at a specific future date, so something HAD to be done. Not some special deal for some interest, but an overall solution for everyone.
As it happened, two proposals had a lot of support but neither one could get a majority. Time was running out, so what did they do? They submitted both to the people for a referendum, and the winner became law. How's THAT for effective, representative government.
Why do we allow this to continue.
And BTW, you are only madder at the Republicans because you live upstate surrounded by them, so THEY sold YOU out. Down here, we've been sold out the DEMOCRATS. Yes, Bruno is a scum, but Silver? ARRRGH!
Actually, I *admire* Shelley because, as upstaters, he's the *ONLY* politicain with a modicum of STONES against DA BRUNO ... Paturkey has demonstrated time and time again that he PREFERS to take it up the bungholio from the Brunolio ... Geez ... for all of his faults, Padre Cuomo at LEAST made Bruno apply some "love lotion" first. :(
Those of us here on Subtalk have at least had SOME exposure to what a COMPLETE DISGRATIATA Joe Bruno is, and Paturkey keeps asking HOW WIDE to spread his cheeks for that pelvic exam. In all my days as a NYS resident (and PROUD to be one), I've never seen a butt plug like our Paturkey. Joe Bruno is also "Mister let's get rid of RENT CONTROL" and a myriad other porkings of the public. Yet people HERE whine about Bloomberg, like HE has any control.
It's the PATURKEY, dammit ... and he's Joe Bruno's BITCH ... GEEZ. And we're going to elect Joe Bruno's bitch AGAIN? Nevermind. Let's *DO* the 'ho ... but if folks complain about their PaTAXis, or whine about the subways being cut by 25%, I just don't wanna hear it, you've ALL been warned and yet Bruno's handpuppet will be re-anointed. SHAME on EVERYBODY ... you COULD have had H Carl McCall ... he would have tightened the purse strings, but at least ya woulda had pocket change and no 30% tax hikes ...
And YES, Division of the budget figures on a 10% sales tax come next year along with a 30% hike in other taxes. Mayor Mike wasn't up for re-up THIS year, so he was able to mitigate the impact for CITY residents by charging it up when he did. Those of us beholden to the PANDER BEAR ... well ... Pope on a rope. :(
TWU - NOTHING, but many give-backs, City stuck with 4.5 billion in NEW taxes from upstate, GE gets cash refund. You'll see. It ain't just Selkirk getting DSL, we're all gonna get SHAFTED, hurricane style. Truth will be available in four weeks once the recounts are done.
TWU - NOTHING, but many give-backs, City stuck with 4.5 billion in NEW taxes from upstate, GE gets cash refund. You'll see. It ain't just Selkirk getting DSL, we're all gonna get SHAFTED, hurricane style. Truth will be available in four weeks once the recounts are done.
Well you know Selkirk, you seem to be more or less self-employed, i.e. with a "mobile" occupation, not like those of us occupationally tied to the state, so you may be able to take advantage of the ideal solution to New York's incomptent government, namely the North American Van Lines solution.
I would have, ***LONG*** ago ... alas, I bought ACRES of land upstate, I really *LOVE* being a New Yorker (travelled the WHOLE country, and yet there's no place LIKE NEw York, especially UPSTATE despite Bruno) ... I couldn't IMAGINE living anywhere else.
But yes, being a TRUE conservative (BARRY GOLDWATER HAD A CLUE, AND SO DID BILL BUCKLEY) Bruno and his whips and chains surrogates REALLY pythes me arf - we have ENOUGH sense *not* to run a high tech BUSINESS out of "Tech Valley" ... after all, to DO the internet, you need at LEAST DSL and that's all we ******PAID****** Joe Bruno (through WMHT) to do for his "legacy" and the mute vamm IGNORED us, preferring to discuss TABLE MANNERS at the FORT ORANGE CLUB when we PAID for his ass. But I digress.
Those of us who *ARE* the "Tech Valley* didn't even get a Job Blob out of the punkass. Nope, he pissed away the time trying to hustle us to come to his trailer park chithole and try to find out how much CASH we had to give him, rather than solving the problems of HUNDREDS of software companies already here in Voorheesville, NY 12186 in getting anything better than 33k baud. Yep, MOVE to the Troyley and PAY me for doing this to you, said the Joe.
Up your ARSE, we said. That's why we have to accept a check once a month from MINNESOTA for what we make HERE in New York ... after all, if the BEST you can do is 33k dialup and you're an internet CORPORATION in No YUK, we had no choice but to have a MINNESOTA company *be* us and we end up with a "royalty check" ... WE wrote the software, we do the support, but because New York would rather suck Darth Vader's twisted pair ("Verizon, A/K/A "Change NY" which *is* paturkey and Bruno, number please) that enable "high tech jobs" in New York such as *WE* created back in 1996, well ... we have to accept a royalty from Minnesota instead of doing it ALL "Made in New York" because of the pea-sized brains of Bruno and Paturkey, who'd rather shake down AMtrak for a monument.
Rest assured, all of my grievances are QUITE PERSONAL ... most folks are EMPLOYEES ... Nancy and I are "ontapanoors" who made the TRAGIC mistake to set up our company in NOO YAWK ... we COULD have been in Bimini. But no, we LOVE NEW YORK, and thsu we gets SHAFTED like any OTHER empliter in this backwards, Ozark morass. I still LOVE living here and contibuting, but JOE BRUNO and the PATURKEY PHUCKED us and continue to do so each waking moment ...
PHUCK 'EM ... Vote for H Carl McCall for "goober" ... H Carl is a NEIGHBOR of ours, I know him personally and he's a GREAT guy ... WITH a clue ... but no, he be a nigger, screw that. :(
Wait until you SEE the unlubricated reality come January if Paturkey makes it his "whoops, promise you TWO terms, I forgot how to count because I short-sheeted the schools."
I vote democratic because they are clearly the lesser evil. My views span both sides of the political spectrum and I will vote for som Republican canidates on the local level if I know them. Despite my opposition to gun control and my favour of tort reform, Republicans are the party of greed, exclusiveness and mass disempowerment and not only that they have the gaul to try to pass themselves off as something else. The only reason anyone votes for them is because they pander to the concerns of the stupid/un-educated (religion, taxes, ones "rights" to hurt/impact others), a demographic that is unable to see through their lies.
TRAILER parks LOVE them ... Republicans these days are like the lottery, EVENTUALLY you'll hit the number. Yeah, if you're KEN LAY (who is STILL walking the streets)
(The only reason anyone votes for them is because they pander to the concerns of the stupid/un-educated (religion, taxes, ones "rights" to hurt/impact others), a demographic that is unable to see through their lies. TRAILER parks LOVE them ... Republicans these days are like the lottery, EVENTUALLY you'll hit the number. Yeah, if you're KEN LAY (who is STILL walking the streets)
Interestingly, 50 years ago the Democrats were the party of bigots and Republicans the party of snobs, but now it is the other way around. The fact that so many vote for either based on being bigots or snobs is one reason that they can rip us off so much.
AMEN! Oh, if only there was a party that didn't believe in UFO's (Golisano, Jesse Ventura) ... OH if only there was a VIABLE third party. The other two would be more honest. MAYBE. Otherwise, ELVIS would be president. Show ME *any* porker who has some Elvis in them, and I'd pull da lever... :)
Let's create a new third party, the Railfan Party. Our Platform (Express, of course) will be based on plowing under every roadway in the country and building railways instead. There will be unlimited access to and photography of abandoned lines. Instead of Treason, we'll have NIMBYISM as the worst crime one could committ.
Let's create a new third party, the Railfan Party. Our Platform (Express, of course) will be based on plowing under every roadway in the country and building railways instead. There will be unlimited access to and photography of abandoned lines. Instead of Treason, we'll have NIMBYISM as the worst crime one could committ.
And EVERY train must have a railfan window.
Installation of grade timers will be a crime punished by long prison terms.
Heh. Oh great, FOAMERS on my lawn every November DEMANDING Pullman sleepers. :)
And here's the primary nominating vote for the party's candidates:
John Q-TrainDashSaalamallah
Watch out, I'd take our system over that of Europe's any day.
Aside from Cretien, I'd opt to be a CANADIEN *any day* ... a nation of such self-respect, liberty and such fairness ... if it wasn't for Fidel, we'd be boycotting THEM! :)
I have cousins in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. Pompous asses - all. Nationalism is great but they seem to look at themselves through the wrong end of the telescope and see themselves as much bigger than they really are. They are actually a 3rd world country, out of place in the new world - (Sorry Peter)
Well, they do still tend to think of themselves as part of the "Great British Empire", or at least my wife's relatives do (she's from Michigan, but half of her family is on the Ontario side of the border). But I don't think it's quite as bad as you paint it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No - I suppose some of it's that old juvenile cousinly rivalry. Yet, if it weren't for US industry north of the border, farming and Bombardier (hehehe) what have they got?
EVERY Canadian citizen has access to health care!
hahahaha - yeah, I know. My aunt goes back to Montreal for the routine stuff but whan it's serious she opts for US medical treatment.
EVERY Canadian citizen has access to health care!
Universal access to medical care is destroying New York.
Come off it Piggo. It would be nice if all people were insured but bashing the US Health Care system by implication is way off the charts. Our system is the best in the world when all things are considered. Hell, I've heard in some countries where they have universal health care they have waiting lists of up to three months, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Canada falls into that unenviable circle.
Somebody else must be paying YOUR insurance. Mine costs $500 a MONTH, and any time I go to the doctor, it's a runaround and no treatment for you. Could you pass that funky cigarette over thisaway? :)
I don't have a joint in my hand Selkirk and if I did I wouldn't know what to do with it. No, I pay for my own insurance and the district I worked for pays the other half until I'm 65 when I get Medicare and anything else I can get on my own.
My situation has been great up to know. In August of 2000 I had something that was making me weak and very lightheaded and I took every test imaginable. The doctors and nurses at Kaiser were great and by October whatever the hell I had went away====and I hope for good. I still don't know what the hell it was but I'm indebted for the help I got. It might not be as great when I go in for help next time, you never know, but up to now I've been very lucky with the medical treatment I've gotten.
Dang ... well I know the libs out your way are planning to put pot in every chicken, so just hang in there. :)
Out here, the insurance is completely out of hand so the Paturkey is able to give it to the unionmeisters for an endorsement. It's outrageous out here ...
>>> The doctors and nurses at Kaiser were great and by October whatever the hell I had went away====and I hope for good. I still don't know what the hell it was but I'm indebted for the help I got. <<<
Hardly a success story for the health care system. It sounds to me like you could have gotten the same result with acupuncture, or a guy in a mask dancing in the room and shaking rattles. It never ceases to amaze me how little the medical profession knows, and how many times medical treatment cures a condition in two weeks which would have gone away on its own in fourteen days. (Sometimes of course, the hard part is keeping the patient alive for fourteen days so the condition can go away.)
Then too, your endorsement of the health care system reminds me of the time in the ‘70s when my little old blue haired mother told me she couldn't understand why there were complaints about police brutality. All the policemen she had ever spoken to were very polite to her.
Tom
The point is Tom is that they gave a damn for what was bothering me. They could have shined me on because they had a hell of a lot more patients than me, but they all were caring. That was my take. Psychologically it helped to know that they were at it, and besides a virus, if that's what it was, is hard to detect. I would give a thousand dollars if I knew what it was that completely unnerved me.
>>> I would give a thousand dollars if I knew what it was that completely unnerved me. <<<
And you are well off enough to be able to give that thousand dollars. Those for whom the health care system has failed are the working poor who are not offered health insurance on their jobs, do not qualify for Medical and cannot afford to pay for either medical insurance or medical care until the situation becomes critical.
Tom
Canada is not 3rd world in any sence. In fact it is very much the utopia that people make it out to be. However, this is not via any actions of the Canadians. Their country is so large and their population is so low that there are more than enough natural resources to go around. That and living next to the richest country on earth helps too.
To tell you the truth, everytime I've gone over the bridge in Niagara Falls I've felt like I just went to another state. It doesn't seem like a foreign country at all. Same Malls, stores, and fast food places. However, I must admit crossing the border into Quebec (Province, not City) from either the Northway in NY or I-89 in Vermont definitely seems like going to another country. I guess its the language.
Well both times when I have gone there the country has been very desaturated, no bright colours. Everything is also very open and very clean. Roads are incredibly wide with wide grass margins. Building are all spread out and very low to the ground, etc. Its like you in some sort of bizzaro world, the same but...different and with French. Its sort of like Europe Lite.
Third world in the sense that they have no real industry of their own.
From what I have heard from my Canadian friend, they basically elect a dictatorship every 5 years. Unlike our system, there is very little "local" influance in Canadian politics and there is no seperation from the Prime Minister and the Legislature. As the PM is head of his party, and his party has a majority in the Parliment, when he wants something the Parliment rubber stamps it. If any MP dosen't go along w/ his party the party leader (PM) can kick him out of the party.
The Parlimentary system is evil because you don't vote for people, but for parties.
Well, Jersey, I'm beginning to regain my faith in you. Good post.
Yeah, but there's still something to be said for voting for a PARTY than voting for which corporation gets to loot the treasury. :)
Interestingly, 50 years ago the Democrats were the party of bigots...
Harry Truman integrated the armed forces more than 50 years ago.
Yes Truman did do that and to me his rating should be upped from near-great to great, but remember the Southern Democrats? They were a monopoly in the South back then and pro-civil rights they were not. In fact, the Republican Party was the party of Union, Emancipation and Civil Rights until the mid-20th Century when many of our leaders lost their way. It aches me no end when I think that the former party who did everything to prevent Blacks from doing anything for over a century now commands close to 90% of their alliegance.
I fully agree with that position. For many years I was a conservative Republican, one key issue that I had "learned" from my father (a proud right winger) was that labor unions were, as a whole, bad for business, protected incompetent workers and held up employers for unjustified raises and work rules. As I worked for a large industrial utility (one with a good reputation on the whole for it treatment of the work force), I saw just how important the union was to protect the workers from unjust disicpline and to win needed benefits and pay increases. As I saw one of the main tenets of my political beliefs discredited, I began to look at many other issues that often divide Democrates from Republicans. I found that when I looked at the issues, I usually agreed with the Democratic side. In recent years, I find it very distressing that Bush and the Republicans pushing tax cuts that only benefit the very wealth. I really haven't found the few extra dollars in my pay check from the Bush tax cuts to have changed my life much, but then I'm a middle class working man. If I made millions a year, the tax cuts would have been enormous. And the push to repeal the estate tax drives my nuts. The fact is that the government needs revenue, that must come through taxation. I really don't think that if you inherit more than $600,000 (I think it is now one million), it is wrong to tax a portion of it. The thing to keep in mind is that the first $600,000 to one million is tax exempt (much more between a husband and wife). Moderate to simply large (large as compared to emormous) estates are not taxed at all now, only very large estates are taxed! The bottom line is if you are inheriting it, YOU DID NOT EARN IT. I really don't buy into the thought that the money was already taxed once. Yea, but the person inheriting the money didn't pay tax on it. I get a paycheck every other week, I pay tax on it, but my employer has already been taxed on the profits from its business, so I can use the same arguement againt the inheritance tax to say I should not have to pay personal income tax.
The only reason anyone votes for them is because they pander to the concerns of the stupid/un-educated (religion, taxes, ones "rights" to hurt/impact others), a demographic that is unable to see through their lies.
Mike, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were speaking about the traditional minority support for the democrats.
I assume that by "Democratic Process" you mean "to the highest bidder".
Bankroll Bush and his Bussiness Buddies are in the process of perpetuating the largest single wealth transfer in this nation's history and are using the cover of a war to get away scot free. While this would make for a wonderful Hollywood hiest film, it sort of sucks in real life.
Don't you see what sort of government we are headed to? A Christian Fundamentalist Theoracry combined with Laissez Faire bussiness and environmental practices. That's worse than the Taliban.
Nope .. .at least the TALIBAN were compeltely up front about WHO was administering the beatings ...
Mike - I'n hindsight, the US supreme Court made a great decision. How do you suppose we've fared after 9/11 had Al (Made by Mattle) Gore been annointed. Despite your feelings, that's not the point. I find the Jersey democratic organization treated the NJ voters very cynically when they found that their candidate could not win, they pulled him down off the stage and sent in the stand-in, cobwebs and all.
I suppose in NJ you can get away with that sort of S#!t. I'm sure the NY democratic party would've love to try that here. I'm sure they wouldn't give a damn about the party loyalistas who only vote and send in their $5.00s. I'm sure they are more afraid of Sharpton and Jackson and their voices of the masses. In the meantime - the NY demcratic machine has already cut its losses and is withholding any further $upport for McCall.
What's worse is that the buzz has it that (assuming he's elected) Lautenberg won't serve, allowing McGreevey to appoint someone to serve two years and then have the incumbency advantage at a special election in 2004. So everyone on all sides gets screwed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
("How do you suppose we've fared after 9/11 had Al
(Made by Mattle) Gore been annointed. Despite your feelings, that's not the point.")
It's hard to say, but there is a real chance IMO it would have never happened. Despite a willingness to continue the Mideast negotiations begun by President Clinton expressed by Colin Powell back before he was appointed, bush decided to drop it. When you consider that the primary argument of the mideastern peoples is the US backing of Israel, the talks, providing a chance for a resolution, served to diffuse the passions surrounding the issue. Once they were abandoned, however, the terrorist groups felt no need for any restraint.
Except that we know that the plan for 9/11 was initiated long before President Bush was elected. Under the lax immigration policies of the clintonistas, these terrorists commuted back and forth for years. They received training in the US while consulting with the high command in Afghanistan, Iraq and even germany. I think that had al gore been in power - instead of hearing patriotic chorus's of "Let's roll" we'd have a president running in circles on the Whitehouse lawn yelling about the sky falling....
The idea and pursuit of training necessary to hijack planes and fly them into skyscrapers, yes.
Implementation and the intended targets were decided on in March of 2001. That's straight off the Binladen tapes from Aljazeera as seen on CNN.
That's not a particularly strong argument. The idea was born long before Bush was elected. Are you now going to tell me that the a$$hole$ might not have attacked if Gore were elected? That's pure snakeoil. They hate the US. They hate our way of life. They would have attacked regardless of who was in office. Otherwise, how do you explain the three major terrorist attacks during the Clinton Administration? Besides since when can you believe anything those camel jockeys say.
9/11 might not have happened if Gore was President for one very simple reason.....his people would have taken seriously the available intelligence, as well as the intelligence records handed over by the Clinton administration. (see Time magazine, the issue date isn't handy, but I'm sure you could easily find a copy at you local library)
There *were* plenty of signs, anyone who acknowledged Alqueda's potential threat (don't forget, Pres. Clinton *almost* got Binladen during the bombing run of 8/8/99) would have seen something was up. Shame the bush people didn't want to hear of anything done by the former President. A sadly childish approach taken on their part to domestic and world affairs has a lot to do with the state we find the world in now. (i.e. the global economy, Korea, middle east)
Binladen is still at large...
Enough...this has wandered *way* off topic.
Clinton was told about where Bin Laden was and did nothing about it. Get your facts straight. If Gore had been elected his party would have everything to prevent any action at all. We'd try to sanction them to death and try to create a dialogue with terrorists. That's how liberal Dems work because they are abhorred with the prospect that using force sometimes had its merits. Remember Carter? Remember Reagan, too. He took on the Soviet Union and brought it down. Read the book "Reagan's War." The former Soviet leadership all state that he alone was responsible for their pathetic system going down in flames. To get this back on topic, get my Sea Beach back on the bridge, express, and to Coney Island.
Next stop on Fred's train----20th Avenue.
>>>The idea was born long before Bush was elected. <<<
HAHA....elected? THAT'S verrrry debatable.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's to debate? He won fair and square, 5 to 4.
He *was* elected ... 5 to 4 by a court carefully chosen not to legislate from the bench. On the morning of September 11, 2001, just a half hour prior to the sad events downtown, it was officially determined that Gore had won Florida, but this story got pushed aside by more significant events. Hail to the Chief, Resident Bush.
They do not hate our "way of life". They hate our Jews and our Support for Jews. We have a region where a vast majority of the population is extremely poor and religious extremism is the only education available to them and the only hope they have for something better. In ANY situation where alternatives to religious education and religious dogma are non-existant you will get this type of shit. Jewish Orthodox, Christian Evangelical, Islamic Fundamentalist, Catholic, its all the same. "Western" civilization was fortunate enough to get this all out of our system about 400 years ago during the Reformation when Christian sects were in a race to see who could produce the most maryters and kill the most infadels. Sound familliar? The only differance was that they didn't have modern high explosives availble to them (although it didn't stop them from trying to blow up the Scottish Parliment anyway).
re how President Gore would have reacted to 9/11
It's hard to say, but there is a real chance IMO it would have never happened. Despite a willingness to continue the Mideast negotiations begun by President Clinton expressed by Colin Powell back before he was appointed, bush decided to drop it. When you consider that the primary argument of the mideastern peoples is the US backing of Israel, the talks, providing a chance for a resolution, served to diffuse the passions surrounding the issue. Once they were abandoned, however, the terrorist groups felt no need for any restraint.
The terrorist attacks had next to nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Hardly anyone in the Arab/Muslim world actually cares about the Palestinians. They may give lip service to their plight, but that's about it - notably, the wealthy Gulf oil countries provide little if any financial support for the increasingly impoverished Palestinians.
What lay behind the terrorist attacks was a much more basic conflict between fundamentalist Islam and the West (the "West," in this context, includes the more moderate Islamic countries too). The attacks would have occurred even if there had been peace and harmony between Israel and the Palestinians.
Frankly I was rooting Torricelli. I really wanted him to shake off all those inditments and then go on to win the Senate. Back in 1996 he came out on top of what was a really nasty campaign and I respected him for that. Anyway, I don't care if the party runs a ground hog for office as long as it can win and keep control of the Senate for the democrats. In this day and age National issues are far more important bringing pork home for the state so the indivudual who actually goes to Washington is immeterial as long as they resist the forces of evil.
>>> National issues are far more important bringing pork home for the state so the indivudual who actually goes to Washington is immeterial as long as they resist the forces of evil. <<<
Are you getting schizoid Mike? You just posted in another post that a problem with Canada was that they voted for the party, not the individual.
Tom
You are assuming a double implication on my part. I have no problem being able to vote for a party as long as you have the option not to if the need presents itself. The tools exists for all of our representitives to be held locally accountable. Remember that one person who voted against some post 9/11 military action. Well that was the will of her district. Currently I have no problems with my party's line, but if I did I, and others sharing my viewpoint would be able to say something about it.
Well said. I plan on voting for Gray Davis this Tuesday for Governor of California even though I haven't voted for a Democrat since 1986. I can't stand Bill Simon, warned my fellow Republican Club members of Arcadia, Calif, that this was a ignorant reactionary who would go nowhere. Many didn't listen to me and now they are going to pay for it. It might bring down the whole GOP ticket out here even though we have three good candidates for lower offices. If they had voted as I did for former LA Mayor Dick Reardon we would be celebrating Tuesday evening. As it is we won;t and I will be rooting for Davis to win.
Gray Davis really got hammered by a lot of crap that was beyond his control (ie the energy "crisis" that turned out to just be out and out fraud). I am glad he has been given an oppurtunity to redeem himself.
>>> Gray Davis really got hammered by a lot of crap that was beyond his control (ie the energy "crisis" that turned out to just be out and out fraud). I am glad he has been given an oppurtunity to redeem himself. <<<
Maybe you are too far away to see the situation clearly, but Davis was hammered for his handling of the energy crisis. He did nothing before it arose to insure power for the state in spite of many warnings of how use was exceeding capacity, and then when the market was manipulated by the energy companies, he signed long term contracts at top of the market prices, in spite of advice that the high prices could not last (and spot prices have never again gone as high as the long term contracts he signed). He came off looking like a rube that could be fooled by a three card monte game.
As far as an opportunity to redeem himself is concerned, he made his own opportunity by spending millions in the Republican primary to defeat Dick Riordan, so he could face a weaker opponent in the general election. Davis has no reputation for leadership but is best known as a prodigious fund raiser who does not forget those (big agriculture, polluting industries, etc.) who contribute.
Check this San Francisco Bay area transcript or this more in depth San Francisco Chronicle biography.
Tom
Mike, you'd really accept a corrupt - criminal in office for the sake of a democratically controlled senate. Are you ethically challanged?
In terms of ethics the Republicans are much worse than the Democrats. However, since they control the big lobbying bucks they have been able to keep their antics "legal". Since the set of all Democrats have substancially less net worth than the set of all Republicans, the Democrats have to sometimes resort to alternative methods to even the playing field. I won't feel a need to be outraged until some real campaign fimance reform is passed.
In terms of ethics? I guess you have forgotten Bill Clinton, the most morally corrupt President in US History. Ever heard of Koreagate, Tidal Basin, etc? Your boys have their share of ethics problems and don't try and deny it.
What do you mean? He lied about getting oral service from some employee. So what? What would you do? Tell the truth? A large segment of the population has done and is continuing to do the exact same things he did, probably even worse. We've had presidents before who were full blown alcoholists and who had full time mistresses. So Clinton got a few blow jobs.
This country is full of moral hypocrites and I am sick of it. Republicans have the gaul to promate a tax cut aimed at the top %5 and then tell the public that it will belifit everyone or structure drug laws that target minority groups for inproportionate prison terms in an attempt to disenfranchise their paticiular demographic, and then go and try to destroy someone else because they weren't forthright with intimate details regarding their private lives.
I personally thought that it was great that Clinton was getting it on in the oval office. More power too him!
Actually, it struck me more as plain old sour grapes. I mean who would want to blow Jesse Helms? Bunch of losers who couldn't get any because of their strong anti-woman political bent. No WONDER they were honked at Willie. He was doing it to some intern instead of doing it to America. :)
He did great moral harm to many of America's young and I know that factually from what I heard from some of my students. He did it so it was ok. Bull@##$%. As those friends of mine on Subtalk who have met me know that I have a certain charm with women but I never carry it to extremes. My wife is the only woman I want and that's the way it is with my friends as well.
Kenny Starr was brought in to find criminal wrongdoing in a real estate deal gone wrong. At the end, all he could find was Bubba's Taxophone getting played by an intern. So I'd ask WHO was it that did that harm, consistently drumming on an unimportant event when the supposed criminal wrongdoing came up empty-handed? America really could have done without the soap opera, but it's all the GOP could come up with and they played it day in and day out, having America spend better than a year the techniques of oral sex. So WHO was it that harmed the kiddies, giving the media material to repeat day after day to the kindergartners watching the news?
Kennedy did Marilyn Monroe ... home run, I might add. So let's put this in perspective. George Bush had a longtime mistress in the State Department. Ronald Reagan carried on for years, both as Governor and President, with a fetching ex-Nazi from Austria. Lyndon Johnson used to screw women on his desk in the Oval Office, never mind a side room (Harding preferred White House closets). After LBJ was caught once by Lady Bird, he had an alarm system installed so he'd know whenever she left the living quarters. Both Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt had their longtime extramarital partners, as did Ike. And never mind JFK. Hell, even Nixon was rumored to have made some sort of whoopee with a China lobbyist.
So let's move along now, Bubba's done. :)
>>> My wife is the only woman I want and that's the way it is with my friends as well <<<
Better keep a close eye on those friends. :-)
Tom
What would I do? I would remain true to my wife, that's what. A blow job in the oval office? You say that's ok. Bullshit. It is not ok. Reagan thought so much about the place he did his work in that he never once took off his jacket in there and your boy is getting hummers and you say it's ok. He also lied under oath. That's ok, too, I suppose. You never met me in person but I can tell you something. You ever got to know me and lied to me I would fry your Goddamn ears like you never heard before and would never talk to you again. There are a few of us who think morals and honesty count for something.
There are a few of us who think morals and honesty count for something.
Morality is one of the biggest evils of society.
NO ONE should have the right to tell anyone else how to act, unless said actions infringe on the rights of another.
Bill Clinton's blow jobs affected no one but himself, Ms. Lewinsky, a consenting adult and his wife. So the only person on Earth who had any right to pursue an investigation and CIVIL (not criminal) action against Bill Clinton was Hillary, she chose not too. Either they worked out their problems or their marriage was always a marriage of utility and remains a marriage of utility and it continues to suit them.
Bill Clinton needed a wife to be seen as pro-"family values" (euphemism for oppression of women by husbands and children by parents), Hillary Rodham needed a husband to control behind the scenes and rise to prominence, thanks to conservative views on women's role in society 25 years ago.
What are your thoughts on Rudys infidelities?
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee: What do I think of Rudy's infidelities? As a supporter of Rudy and a Republican it makes no difference that I like the man. His conduct was horseshit. I didn't think it proper that his wife Donna aired their dirty linen in public, but he should have kept his zipper closed. When you walk down that aisle you have pledged that you have eyes for no others. THAT IS SET IN STONE as far as I'm concerned and party affilitation makes no difference whatsoever. I hope my answer lets you know my take on it.
The marriage cerimony is mostly Mideival contractual law that was designed to facilitate the transfer of property from one generation to the next and to prevent voilence and bloodshed amoung rival human males. Since we no longer need these services, the institution of periment, monogomus marriage is largely irrelevent. A human male's primary functions are to eat, protect the "self" and to have sex wit as many females as possibly to propigate the species. I cannot find fault with someone who meerly does what is natural when the oppurtunity presents itself.
Also, if you go back to the Jews there was never any problem with having multiple wives.
Stick that in your ditty bag Jersey because when it comes to the meaning of word fidelity you are so full of barf that you make no sense at all. From your take I get the impression the human race is a bunch of primitive types with only our carnal instincts to serve us. I have a much higher feeling about the qualities of the human race than you do. However, I like this exchange because you at least have an opinion. I to take it, though, that you aren't married. Take my advice, stay that way for your own sake.
Shocking though it sounds, I'm actually with Fred on this! Men are not just walking libidos. My number one drive now is the best interests of my 4-month old daughter, and my number one desire is to get home to her and my wife. Yes, we males are capable of love too.
Marriage and family life have served me well. But they are not for everybody.
---Andrew
Thanks Andy, I was beginning to think that I was a hallow voice in the wilderness. Maybe Sour Grapes Jersey will pay more attention to you than he did to me, and give your little girl a big hug for me. There is nothing like a little girl.
Remember this: A son is a son until he takes a wife but daughter is
a daughter for all of her life.
My number one drive now is the best interests of my 4-month old daughter
That doesn't really make your point that men aren't walking libidos, since it just continues your goal (AND EVERYONE ELSE'S!) of having your DNA propogate itself.
Primitive species can have thousands of offspring and they're pretty much born with everything they'll ever need to survive and reproduce. Humans need to be "programmed" if you will.
But there always was a problem of wives having multiple husbands. That is blatantly unfair, of course.
:0)
I understand that there are some people there who believe that man has a higher purpose on Earth. I am not one of them.
The primary function of any organism is to reproduce, everything else is only there to make reproduction more efficient. Since evolution favors organisms that have a better time reproducing, any trait makes reproduction better will survive. All of the others will die out.
I do however take incident with your comment that human males must have sex with as many females as possible. Human infants are the most helpless of all animal infants because most human things are learned and not inborn, which is what gives humans the potential that they have. A man can have 100 children, but what good will that do? The purpose of the organism is to not only have offspring, but to guarantee that the offspring will have offspring and with good mates. A child is not going to be successful and is not going to be able to attract genetically superior mates when the time comes if he or she is not nurtured properly.
A lot of human functions can be traced not just to an organism's need to reproduce, but to an advanced organism's need to HINDER reproduction.
They're not any different, Giuliani didn't do anything wrong.
Both Clinton's and Giuliani's affairs were tacky and somewhat bizzare in their own ways. But Giuliani took it to another level when he actually paraded his mistress Judy Nathan all over the place, putting his family in an awkward situation. At least Clinton had the decency to be embarrassed about it.
One thing both men have in common is that both are big 'ol hams, addicted to the spotlight to the point where they'll just embarass the hell out of themsleves if it means they get the media attention. It is a sure sign that Clinton should be right at home here in New York.
:-) Andrew
Thank God for that. Just keep him and his bag lady wife Hillary the hell out of California.
"There are a few of us who think morals and honesty count for something. "
They do count for something, but not all of us interpret that the way you do.
Bill Clinton's lying about his affair was stupid, and the attention focused on it detracted from his bility to get things done, it's true. But the guy was a very capable President and the Clinton Administration did a lot of pretty good things - including knowing when NOT to interfere with something, a skill Ronald Reagan was not as good at.
Look, if hypothetically Bill Clinton had admitted his affair right away, and Hilary had said, "yeah, I knew about it. Hell, I watched it happen once or twice and enjoyed it," what then? I would have been inclined to say to the critics, "Get over it -we need to move on to other business."
Read up on J. Edgar Hoover sometime. There was a time he was considered a saint...
Yeah, but Hoover was a darling of the right, therefore the rules do not apply to him or Giuliani, either
Your point is taken.
"Darling" is right ... http://hnn.us/articles/814.html
What IS it about these right-wingers? DO check it out, Hoover LOVED black teddies and wearing evening gowns.
"What would you do? Tell the truth?"
No mike. I'd have nothing to tell my wife of more than 30 years. Perhaps fidelity is more of a republican thing. Then again - not seeing anything wrong speaks volumes about your ethics.
"Perhaps fidelity is more of a republican thing."
You can dream about it that way, but the Republicans know in their hearts it's not true..
For the most part, YES IT IS!!!!!!
Remember Newt, the Republican avitar? He dumped his wife for a cute yongue hottie too.
I definitly classify cheating on one's spouce as "Not Cool" and a very mean and hurtful thing to do. However I leave it at that and I make not other value judgements about someone's character. If you find that you seriously dislike your life partner it is stupid to continue the farce. It only leads to depression and domestic violence. It is the stupid institution of "fedility" that causes people to not be frank with their spouses in regard to their feelings. They feel bound to keep the marriage going while at the same time they feel the strong need for some sort of basic happiness. The presence of fedelity is what leads to cheating, not the other way round.
Let me comment on your last post. I'm neutral. You make some good points, though.
Tell that to Newt Gingrich, who left his wife the moment she came down with Cancer.
Pointing fingers accross the aisle is futile when it comes to marital fidelity. Both parties have cheating hearts all over the place!
--Andrew
Sea Beach Fred writes:In terms of ethics? I guess you have forgotten Bill Clinton, the most morally corrupt President in US History. Ever heard of Koreagate, Tidal Basin, etc? Your boys have their share of ethics problems and don't try and deny it.
Fred: I know that I excoriated you and some of the boys last week for turning this into a political bs board but I really must take you to task for these recent posts. You seem to have forgotten "CREDIT MOBILER"and "TEAPOT DOME." These are scandals that we all have read about in our history books which took place during Republican administrations. How many lives were ruined by the baseless accusations of the Republican Senator Joe McCarthy and his witchhunt for Communists? What about the bigest one of all WATERGATE? Where a Republican president used the power of the Oval Office to obstruct the administration of justice.
Morality is about more than sexual behavior. It implies a code of conduct consistent with a set of principles. What Bill Clinton did was wrong and no one says it was right. What I find difficult to understand is that the man leading the House Managers at the impeachment hearing (Henry Hyde-Republican) was himself an admitted adulterer. (Remember his "youthful affair" at the tender age of forty). And what about the chosen replacement for Newt Gingerich as Speaker of the House, Bob Livingstone, another Republican who liked to wander?
Immorality is about sexual infidelity, but is is also about lying, cheating, stealing and betraying the public trust.
A learned Jewish Rabbi put it more succintly: "Let the one amongst you who is without sin cast the first stone."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Heh. How do you explain Vice President ... Dick then? :)
Cheney: 2 CONVICTIONS, Drunk driving
Halliburton
So what's ANOTHER crook in the mix?
Shrub too
They're BOTH CONVICTS. Whoops.
Our President is no Boy Scout and it's been a long time since we've actually had one in the White House. The uniqueness of this incident is not the criminal activity pre-election but is the post-election corruption that was heading for almost certain prosecution. Now, you can say innocent until proven guilty and I'd have no problem with that. What I find scandleous is that faced with certain defeat at the polls, and the possible consequential loss of control of the senate, the dems pulled the plug on this loser and trotted out some worn out re-tread who's not sure what day it is. Now given the seeming IQ of the Jersey voter, he may actually win the election. I have little doubt, however, that after a respectable period, Mr. Lousenburg will have some 'serious health problems' and will be replaced by another loyal bundist.
That may well be and I'll grant you that. But when I hear people trying to convince me that Shrub is as pure as the driven snow (an inch and a half so far up here) that gets my rump in the air. Wouldn't it be mahvellous though if somehow this country could get past the kind of political practices that ensures a lower common denominator is attracted to politics than Howard Stern's demographic? :)
Nobody who DESERVES to govern would ever be stupid enough to run for office, so what we end up with in ALL these elections are the petty thieves that can't find gainful employment elsewhere. Damned shame.
How would you like it if I ran for office? Would I fall into that category, or would you tell me to go for it?
It would CERTAINLY be a learning experience. Just so's ya know, I got a chance to see the game from the INSIDE when I ran for Mayor of New Paltz, NY as a REPUBLICAN. :)
So yeah, go for it. Heh. "I am not a crook." I lost. ;)
Sorry about that. I never like a Republican losing to a Democrat, unless it is the Governor's race here in California where I'm going to cast my first vote for a Dem in 16 years tomorrow.
Nah, I wasn't ... the Mayor's position paid $3,000 a year as a "part time 60 hour a week job." I had to PAY $3,000 to the local committeeperson to be put up for the job. But as they explained it to me, that $3,000 was just the salary, I'd also get $3,000 from the water department fund, another $4,000 from the sewer fund, another $6,000 from the volunteer fire department, and the committee wanted me to pay THAT to them up front also. QUITE a learning experience it was.
You'll be pleased to know that the FROG party candidate won. :)
At least it wasn't the Democrats
The dems (as usual) forgot to PUT UP a candidate. That's why the frogs won. :)
Poor Bill Simon
You are the only Republican I'd vote for.
I'd be willing to vote for him if he shows up at my door with a breaded fried rat on a stick. I'm funny that way. I only vote for those who show up at MY house. You get spoiled living upstate. If the mayor won't buy you a beer, you get a new mayor. :)
Thanks John. If I do I hope there are enough Democrats and Independents who feel the way you do.
It tells the state of the Dems when they to trot out some old flabby retreads in order to hold down the fort, but I feel the same way about the Jersey voter as you do. When I went to my aunt and uncle's 50th Wedding Anniversary Party in August (In Clinton, if you can believe that without heaving), I made some snide remarks about Corzine and how he pulled one on the voters in that state. They didn't even argue with me on that. So there are a few Jerseyites who either understand that or don't answer because they haven't got a clue on anything.
hahahahah - interesting slant !!!!
Then again - we are the 500 Lb. gorilla - aren't we?
The Mouse That Roared - 2002 version.
Copied and saved - a classic.
Mike,
You summed it ALL up in three sentences. Excellent observation. It is truly amazing how the Bushies simply love big business. Yes, big business provides jobs and is vital to the country, but they need to be watched! If Enron, WorldCom and Global Crossing didn't open people's eyes, I don't know what will. Corporations are in business to make all the money they can. Remember not that long ago when the auto industry was crying about pollution controls, air bags and fuel economy goals! What do you think our enviroment would be like today if not for gov't mandated emissions standards! The fact we have much cleaner air and water today is because the government stood up to the auto makers and said these things were needed. You know no company would have instituted these things on their own!
You have a point but get in your head that your boys are not clean shirts by any means. Ever heard of Corzine, Kerrey, Cantwell, Kohl and Kennedy? Multi millionaires all of them and, wow can you believe it, all are of your political persuasion and with the exception of Kennedy all have their hands in the pockets of the rich either in actuality or in sympathy. Kohl, for instance, is the inept owner of the Milwaukee Bucks who regularly stiffs his players in contract negotiations and Cantwell was run out of office in '94 for her uselessness until she bought a senate seat six years later.
The irony is that in the long run things like environmental protection, increased efficiency and letting more and more people become part of the economic process IS BETTER FOR BUSSINESS than without. The best example is that of Henry Ford. He paid his workers high wages and in turn his workers were able to afford the products that Ford made thus creating more overall wealth than has he paid them standard wages.
Wealth is not like a pie. There is no set amount of wealth that we all have to fight over. When human beings work and engage in productive activities wealth is created. This is why recessions are 90% psychological. Anyway, the problem is that there exist all too frequently oppurtunities for an indivudual to increase their wealth at the cost of a greater amount of wealth of those around him. Basically, by some CEO going out and increasing his profits by x, he can all too easily decrease the group wealth by x + y.
The Republicans are the party of greed who seek to increase the wealth of a privilaged few at the expense of the many (odd that they used to be the party of inclusion instead of exclusion). What makes this truely revolting is that it isn't even a one to one transfer (aka Pareto efficient, the most basic measure of efficiency).
Things are getting pretty desperate these days. I saw an interesting news magizine type of show on PBS where the guy (Bill Moyer maybe) said that in the class struggle of rich vs poor the rich have won because they have simply outspent the poor. In a system where elections are decided on by who has the most $ to campaign, those with capital resources will always be able to win, as once in office they will use the system to perpetuiate their wealth to then win the next election.
There is the school of thought that if the vast citizenry of our country is so STUPID as to fall for these lies and TV ads then we should get what we deserve. I am of half a mind to just sit back and enjoy the long ride down hill with a stockpile of gasoline and ammunition in my basement.
Quick example. Republicans have made a popular issue of repealing the "death" tax. A tax that some 75%+ of all Americans will never have to pay. Yet by simply calling it the "death" tax instead of estate tax they have tricked the public into thinking that everyone has to pay it. Now those with capital resporces will be able to use the power of compound interest to not only never have to work again, but will at the same time be able to exponentionally outpace the wealth of those hardworking stiffs that come after them.
BTW, if anyone ever comes to you and says something like "why should some people pay a higher % of taxes than others if we all get the same services" ask them this:
"Who has more to loose if China invaded and took over our country today? Some poor guy living in public housing or some rish guy in a mansion up in West Chester? The Chineese would go right to West Chester, shoot the rich guy in the head and take his stuff. The poor guy would probably get free health care."
or:
"If something like 75% of the population is near of below the poverty line tell me one good reason why it would not be in their best interest to pick up pointed sticks, beat the useless gentry to death and take their stuff? Think of their tax burden as a bribe so that the rest of the population won't kill them in a revolution."
"Lousenburg"???
By any chance are you fan of Michael Savage's "Savage Nation"? I have heard him a few time (talk about a gas bag, if you listen to him for a few hours, he will claim to have doctorate's in at least three seperate fields) and he seems to be the one who coined that phrase.
Also, the Forrester commercial where the announcer asks "Why did Frank Lautenberg team up with Robert Torreclli to try and steal the Senate race?" is not only laughable but points up the fact that Forrester's entire campainge theme was "I'm not Torrecelli!" First, Torrecelli and Lautenberg had an intense rivalry (so much so that even after Lautenberg agreed to help his party by running for the seat on such short notice, Torrecelli has turned over very little of his campainge funds (which I believe he could have turned over the entire amount, it's not he will be running for office in the future. Maybe he's saving it for commisary money in the big house). If Lautenberg had "teamed up with Torreclli" you would think Torecelli would have given him as much financial support as possible.
Another statement in that commericial is so absurd it truly makes me shake my head in amazement. The ad claims that Lautenberg voted againt the death penalty for terrorists, making us less safe from those terrorists. Huh??!?!? First, the jihadist are looking to die for the cause, executing them will not do much to discourage them; and second the sniper case gives a good look at the deterent effect of the death penalty. First the killers started in Maryland, a death penalty state (ok, one with the death penalty, but one that does not impose it or carry it out often); then then moved to Virginia, a state that not only has the death penalty and imposes/carries it out frequently, but is the only jurisdiction on planet earth besides Texas that still executes juveniles. Yep, the death penalty sure detered them!
The death penalty is wrong.
Life in prison with regular torture is much better.
One word...poorly spelled. Oubliette.
Couldn't cut & paste the link so I opted to wait and read about it this AM. There was no evidence that it was either an accident due to poor judgement or a suicide. Other than the usual quips about Darwin Awards, one has to wonder about the mind-set of a person who would lay down on active railroad tracks. The fact that he was reported to be hispanic - Was he disillusioned with life in the US? Was he homesick? I can't figure it because there are better ways to go.
Odd that he chose the Oyster Bay Branch. He likely had a long, cold wait for the train.
"Odd that he chose the Oyster Bay Branch. He likely had a long, cold wait for the train."
Did he feel he needed a lot of sleep before the big event?
OK, that was a cruel comment. I apologize.
I wonder if our old friend Mr. Liquor was present. The Newsday article doesn't say, but it jsut could be. The victim was so smashed before the train hit him that he might never had even known where he was.
Betcha 3-1 when the details come out his BAC was 4.0 or higher.
Sometimes the blood alcohol level does not reflect the presence of other intoxicants that may be present - alcoholics have and will drink antifreeze (ethylene glycol), methanol (paint thinner), or anything else to get that elusive buzz. In the emergency room, we check the blood alcohol level and the difference between the measured serum osmolarity and the calculated serum osmolarity - the osmolal gap - a large gap means that our patient may have some other brands of poison on board and if action is not taken quickly, he will die.
The things that some people do to themselves, let alone to others, makes you want to scream. Guess what, folks? The antidote for ingested methanol or antifreeze is intravenous ethyl alcohol - that keeps the body ðÇÚÇ turning the antifreeze into some very toxic metabolic byproducts.
Sometimes the blood alcohol level does not reflect the presence of other intoxicants that may be present - alcoholics have and will drink antifreeze (ethylene glycol), methanol (paint thinner), or anything else to get that elusive buzz. In the emergency room, we check the blood alcohol level and the difference between the measured serum osmolarity and the calculated serum osmolarity - the osmolal gap - a large gap means that our patient may have some other brands of poison on board and if action is not taken quickly, he will die.
The things that some people do to themselves, let alone to others, makes you want to scream. Guess what, folks? The antidote for ingested methanol or antifreeze is intravenous ethyl alcohol - that keeps the body from turning the antifreeze into some very toxic metabolic byproducts.
Ron, I'd watch it. Just because the thought police stopped posting on subtalk does not mean that they are not hiding in wait - avidly ready to pounce on an errant comment.
Well, it probably wasn't necessary for me to post that...
Gee, a Hispanic guy in Glen Cove? Whodda thunk it?
As for laying on the tracks, given the quality of the local Hispanic crowd (and to be fair, there are a lot of productive ones there too), in that area, I wouldn't be surprised if the was alcohol involved in this one. Or other substances.
The bridge over Glen Cove Road and that stretch between Sea Cliff and Glen Street is a popular place for tresspassing, and has been for years. I hear they get lots of close calls there.
Oddly, despite the total lack of service on the OB line, everytime i go to Sal's to get a Pizza, I inevitably get stuck at Glen Street waiting for a train. *shrug*
Excellent timing. You're the James Bond of railroads.
I recall reading about a case in Chicago some years back, in which a guy walked onto a CTA right-of-way and urinated on the third rail. Supposedly his family sued because the warning sign was ONLY in English.
Does anybody know the outcome of that case?
If the person spoke only English and his family won, Someone should send the story to Reader's Digest. re: That's Outrageous!
I did a foot tour of Paramus today. I went to Van Saun park (up Forest avenue), which is absolutely beautiful this time of year (and took photos, no trouble anywhere).
Then Bergen Mall, which isn't as bad as some have made it out to be. Even at the early hour (10:30am) the mall was reasonably busy, way more people walking around than in that ghostown Palisades mall.
Then I walked down Spring Valley ave and Rochelle ave to Garden State Plaza. The fall leaves were just so beautiful, so I took more pics (we don't get as nice foiliage on LI). It was alot of walking, but it was relaxing.
I also walked on the west side of Garden state plaza and noticed an ROW, with PSEG lines, by the Passaic st entrance. I took some photos (no trouble again)and have reviewed the photos and saw a speed limit sign on the ROW. Also saw some discarded wooden RR ties in the brush. But did a railroad ever run there? The PSEG ROW just screams that it was a former ROW, like the LIPA lines around West Hempstead.
On the subway, I had R62A's both ways on the 7 (with no railfan window). Going I left Main st at 7:30am and was sitting in the 2nd car, not too packed fortunately, though I thought I may have seen a Subtalker on there, but by then we were at GCT.
I got off at 5th ave, the corridor which didn't look that bad to begin with looks real nice with the new artwork. I waited awhile for a D, which was held again at 5th ave, and at 59st I didn't have to wait long for an R44 A train.
Going back I did the 42nd st passagway, which is still quicker than taking the B or D at 42nd/6th.
R62A again, no front window (just missed a Redbird). Pretty packed (this was around 5:30pm).
GW Bus terminal now has Muzak, the PA must like it because I've heard it at 42nd street and the former WTC.
I grew up in Bergen County (Teaneck) and spend a fair amount of time at the Bergen Mall and the Garden State Plaze. I have no memory of a rail line in the area you mention west of the GSP. I'm 43, so my recolections begin in the mid to late 60's. The NJ Transit Bergen or Mail line is about 4 mile west of there, so maybe at one time, there was some kind of connection that ran in the area you mention.
I do recall hearing that pre-WWII (at least, maybe longer ago) NJ had an extensive trolley system, that may also be part of the anwser to your inquiry.
Piggo
Was Garden State Plaza once an airport? I was walking around and I saw a sign about that an airport was once there.
GSP Airport....? Not that I know of - are you sure the sign wasn't referring to Teterboro?
GSP was once an open-air mall (before my time).
And Bergen Mall - a very interesting place that appears to have stood still in time. Often times when I have a few hours between classes at Bergen CC, I'll take the 756 over to the mall and have lunch at the Oriental Grill (a Mongolian BBQ-type place that kicks ASS!), then spend some time gawking at the clusters of string lights hanging from the ceiling - just a couple weeks ago, I found the lower level..... that place is downright freakish! It's basically a long, dimly-lit concrete-walled corridor, with a chapel at one end (yes, a chapel), a tailor, and these little pseudo-village-looking shops that aren't really stores anymore.
Paramus was farmland (celery!) before the early 1960's openings of the GSP and Bergen Mall which were both open air malls (those lower level shops in the Bergen Mall used to be a kiddyland with rides) until the indoor Paramus Park Mall opened in the mid 1970's and the other 2 malls enclosed after that. Across route 4 from the Bergen Mall where Daffy's is used to be E.J Korvettes and Across from the GSP was Alexanders Dept. Store which on the front wall had the (at that time) world's largest mural-it was in the Guiness book of records!
Oh yeah, I remember the [abandoned] Alexander's building! IINM, they razed it and moved the mural somewhere else, I forgot where.
I remember that mural from the late 60s. Is the pedestrian bridge across Rt. 4 still there?
I haven't been through that area since, oh, 1968 or thereabouts.
Yes, the pedestrian bridge is still there. I crossed it, pretty old and kind of un-nerving.
Yeah I didn't see the lower level when I went to Bergen mall, I didn't even know there was one until I looked at the mall guide that I took when I got home.
Yeah that place reminds me of the malls in the 80s, believe it or not, I kind of miss those days.
The lower level is kind of hard to find - you have to look for the escalator that is sort of mid-span on the south side of the building.
I also remember Menlo Park being a small joint before becoming the massplex that it is now.
I never been to Menlo Park yet. Is it worth a trip?
I *WORKED* at Bergen Mall, at the Shoprite (since moved), in the early 70s. I lived in Paramus for a few years in the early 80s. It is a nice town and I support their enforcement of "blue laws", after all people need time to enjoy their town for themselves.
As far as rail lines I know of none that ever were.
As another poster stated, Paramus was mostly celery farms until the early 50s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Paramus is a pretty cool place, I just wish that Rts 4 and 17 were more like large boulivards rather than highways (they'd be more pedestrian and transit friendly that way). Imagine that - if the Route 4/17 interchange was like the intersection of Richmond Av and Victory Blvd on Staten Island.... and instead of being surrounded by a sea of asphalt, Garden State Plaza would also consist of high-rise office and apartment buildings. There would also be more thru-streets surrounding the complex and a large transit center that would serve regional and local buses as well as light rail.
I guess that's why we have imaginations, cause that's the only place we're gonna see a lot of things.
But getting back to reality, I also like downtown Hackensack. It, like Bergen Mall, is another blast from the past. It hasn't [yet] undergone gentrification, but it is also not a rundown area. There are a couple of nice army/navy stores and a lot of nice places to eat.
if the Route 4/17 interchange was like the intersection of Richmond Av and Victory Blvd on Staten Island....
... traffic would be backed up heading southbound all the way back to Suffern, and northbound all the way back to Newark.
I remember the taffic jams in Ramsey at Lake Street until the last traffic light was removed in the section north of route 4 in the late 1980s.
Paramus is the only town in NJ w/o a main street. NJ became its main street when some kind of agreement was reached to allow shopiing to be built along the highway. Or so I heard.
--Mark
Ah, but if local transit was much more beefed up and heavily used, with frequent and ample bus service, light rail and rapid transit, there'd be less private auto traffic...
I think I used this example before, but I read that in a couple of instances where roads/highways were eliminated or downgraded, the traffic volume actually went down. The two examples are when the lower section of the West Side Highway was demolished after a section collapsed, and when the Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was destroyed then demolished after the 1989 earthquake.
As for a "Main St, Paramus", I guess other than Rt 4 and 17, Passaic St, Paramus Rd, and Century Rd could be considered main thoroughfares, but they're mostly residential. Passaic St has some small stores and Century Rd has some office complexes and stuff, but...
And yes, "downtown Paramus" is really Garden State Plaza!
Damn right I hate traffic lights. We have so many of them here in Nassau county. Years ago, there should have been a plan to eliminate them. Northern Blvd especially. Each light has 1/2 mile backups in each direction. And the lights are timed so you miss every one. I remember when a storm knocked out power to the lights, traffic actually moved better.
Well I actually wish Northern Blvd was more like Rt4. Yes, it is pedestrian unfriendly, but at least there are no traffic lights (and how I hate traffic lights!).
There should be more ped bridges on Rt.4 and Rt.17. I was suprised not to see one crossing Rt.17 from where BJ's is to the mall property.
Anyone have news on what happened Friday morning, around 11 ish?
I was taking an F train to college in Brooklyn, riding in the first car. Before leaving Roosevelt Av, there's an announcement that the F train would be going through the 53rd Street tunnel; next stop Queens Plaza. There's a crowd on the platform but surprisingly only little noticed.
As we approach the 36 street area we're held by red approach signals for a few minutes. Then those signals clear and the home ball is... YELLOW? Seconds after we take the diverging route, the conductor comes back on and says that we were now going through 63rd Street... passengers for Queens Plaza can take, blah, blah.
We were delayed for a total of 20 minutes, I'd say, in the whole. Approaching Rockefeller Center the train took a green ball and used the track that the B and D trains used.
I was honestly surprised we didn't skip stops to make up lost time.
I waited almost 10 minutes for an uptown B or D at 42nd street around 8am.
>>>I waited almost 10 minutes for an uptown B or D at 42nd street around 8am. <<<
That is the usual interval at that time.
Peace,
ANDEE
So that would also mean southbound B/D run every 10 minutes also, since they have to head back north. Not very often, considering it's rush hour.
This has happened ot me a few times. Get to Roosevelt, F's through 53rd, but by the time you get to 36th, QBMT has gotten permission to send you back through 63rd.
This is why when I was a conductor, I always waited to make such announcements. Worst came to worst I would have to make one at QP that the train was going 53rd and tell them how to go.
You make think that rude of me, but as many times as they told me rerouted thru 53rd they always had it fixed by 36th. Just think if I had made those announcements at Roosevelt how many people for 21st, Roose. Island and Lex/63rd would have needlessly gotten off.
Very interesting, I happened to be at Rockefeller Center at about 11 AM Friday, waiting for the legendary V train to Queens to show up. It took about 20 minutes for me to get a single V train, starting a SubTalk-style discussion among us passengers on whether the V should run through 53rd Street.
There was a V train on the southbound local track that took about 5 minutes (no exaggeration) just to completely enter the station. This was before an F train (probably your train) showed up on the B/D tracks. That V probably forced the F onto the B/D tracks.
OK! There I was yesterday arguing with my english teacher about how much bettter the New York City Subway system is then the London Underground, and then she contends about how clean her system is, and how frequent the trains are and I counter with how frequent some of lines are, the 1 zone fare, and the fact that we have express lines, and there are very few cities that have followed suit. So people I need to know from you, which is the better system London Underground of the New York City Subway System?
From an OPERATIOAL standpoint:
NYCT
Pros:
-more express service
-longer trains, more capacity
-flat fare
-frequent during rush hour, decent during other hours
-Metrocard a great fare system
Cons:
-dirtier than LU
-slow
-lots of unused infrastructure (good for railfan's point of view, but costs money to have it sitting there)
-has little chance of expansion
-has redundant lines (IND following an IRT line in the Bronx), while other areas have little service (Queens, east side)
LU
Pros
-fast service
-cleaner
-more modern operations
-destination boards with next three trains listed
-fare system is also good
Cons
-zone fare not as convienent
-tiny trains
-stations with elevator only service reduces passenger flow
-some transfer complexes are mazes and can take up to fifteen minutes to traverse (like at Bank)
-lack of emergency walkways
It seens that Londoners are more vocal about how their subway sucks in operation, although there is not a lack of complaints coming from NYers. In the end, it'll come down to peronsal taste, which includes non-operational preferences.
As a railfan, I consider LU to be my #1 favorite subway in the world, NYCT comes in at #3. I actually LIKE many of the cons I listed for both systems. London has more history behind it and is a great mix of modern operation with old infrastructure.
I'd add a few.
NYCT
Pros:
-more express service
-longer trains, more capacity
-flat fare
-frequent during rush hour, decent during other hours
-Metrocard a great fare system
-dense network of stations
-24 hour service
Cons:
-dirtier than LU (perhaps)
-slow
-lots of unused infrastructure (good for railfan's point of view, but costs money to have it sitting there)
-has little chance of expansion
-has redundant lines (IND following an IRT line in the Bronx), while other areas have little service (Queens, east side)
-poor street access (narrow stairs, different entrances for different platforms
-missing inter-line transfers
LU
Pros
-fast service
-cleaner (perhaps)
-more modern operations
-destination boards with next three trains listed
-fare system is also good
-transfers at almost all line crossings
-access to all platforms from all entrances
-two new lines built in last 30 years
Cons
-zone fare not as convienent
-tiny trains
-stations with elevator only service reduces passenger flow
-some transfer complexes are mazes and can take up to fifteen minutes to traverse (like at Bank)
-lack of emergency walkways
-long inter-station distances (so less dense station network)
-some areas (esp. South London) not well served
-no overnight service (apart from special days)
Bloody hell! I forgot the most obvious pro for NYC, the 24 hour service. LU ends at a very early 12:00, even MARTA has longer service hours than LU (service ends at 2:30am) :-)
I didn't mention the dense network pro because it seems that LU also has a dense network as well. Both cities have areas with little or no service compared to other neighborhoods.
In London, poor, predominantly black areas (like Brixton) have very little Underground service and poor prospects for getting more.
So how do the black people get aroudn in London? I thought Brixton is the end of the Victoria Line is has pretty good service (i.e. if you walk to Brixton then you can get on a train)
They use buses.
Look at the Underground map. If you're south of the Thames, there isn't much rail service.
Gents,having experienced both systems i would say that NYC comes out top.
Why...?
Well...
24 hour service, London shuts at 1am opens 5 am
air conditioned,London has NO air conditioned cars
Fare Control,London has zones and time restrictions on passes
.
oh....and you have redbirds...enough said!
Rob
oh....and you have redbirds...enough said!
Not for much longer (glub glub glub).
The rail network in South London is very very extensive. The problem is it is not shown on the Underground Map.
Simon
Swindon UK
"The rail network in South London is very very extensive. The problem is it is not shown on the Underground Map."
You're comparing apples to oranges. A poverty stricken neighborhood's residents would have difficulty using higher-priced commuter rail. The residents use buses because that is what they can afford.
The analogy here would be shutting down the A and J train services through Brooklyn and offering only LIRR service.
But in London, they have a zone fare system so using Underground or former BR would not make a difference fare wise.
It is like you can chose between LIRR and Subway and still pay the same fare.
Hey, I've been in NYC for the past 15 years. It doesn't mean one system is better than another. Just mentioning the facts here.
Wow! That's excellent.
But what about travel frequency?
That really depends on which lines, which stations, but generally the frequency is less than on the Underground. Some local stations would only get trains every 20 minutes and some lines are peak hours only.
On the other hand, many lines have frequent service and fast(express) service and trains that run through Thameslink (an North-South connection) will continue to the North of London.
Also as long you are in the valid zones, a travel card (unlimited pass) lets you can transfer freely between the different systems and the buses too.
I'm sure some systems are cleaner, some are much more modern, some have even better scenery, but when you take everything into consideration there is no other subway system like New York's. Speaking as a non-New Yorker who ridden many different subways both in the US and abroad, I can only give my opinion. But to sheer variety, in both scenery and people, as well as reputation and tradition, New York's is number one with me. I'm certain, while not speaking for others, others do feel the way I do.
It is certainly No1 for railfan enjoyment.
Simon
Swindon UK
And you forgot to mention that New York's system has the Sea Beach Line, while London's does not.....
But we do have the (real)Brighton Line.
Simon
Swindon UK
True, True.
And it's authentically slow too...
The real Brighton Line? Get real! We had the original Brighton Beach Hotel, and even pulled it further in-land to keep it from going, er, to the other side of the pond :)
--Mark
Too bad!
But I don't suppose your Brighton was established by King George the Fourth (8-) ! My hometown on the south coast of England was.....and its railway line is pretty good too.
No, we're only up to King George the Second so far, and his claim to fame is the West End line, not the Brighton line.
At leasxt Both Brightons go to the Beach, what Beach Does The Sea Beach Go too. Oops Ialmost forgot the Brighton Beach outside of melbourne Australia, which also has Trolley Services(Trams)
Bob, not to be picky, but while the Melbourne Met's Sandringham electric tram line has a Brighton Beach Station, there is no tram to Brighton Beach. Closest is East Brighton.
There used to be a "Railways Tram" that ran from St Kilda to Brighton Beach on a 1600mm (5'3") guage, but it was scrapped in 1959.
Hey Wizard of Oz, you just threw some damp water on Bob's day. Shame on you.
No he didn t, E Brighton is a 20 minute walk to Brighton, I know I did it
Ah, but where else in the world can you find the Baker Loo? :o>
The north side of the Circle is approx. to NYCT's Sea Beach, being in a cut with covered stretches. Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and District/Edgware Road lines also run on it.
wayne
The Circle, eh? I'll have to remember that when I go to London in the future. A real nice city. I have always liked it there.
GP38: By all means I should have my head shaved for that omission. Yes, no other subway system in the whole wide world has the Sea Beach Line. Only New York has it; therefore, New York by a landslide. Sorry I was so remiss in making that omission.
Yes, no other subway system in the whole wide world has the Sea Beach Line.
Sorry I was so remiss in making that omission.
LOL. Ahh, we all forgive you, but can the Sea Beach?
Oh sure, my train loves me just like I love it. You ought to see the R-32's, Slant 40's and R 68's smile when I come to town and climb on board. I make their day like they make mine. A real crazy guy am I. Right?
now you have r-40m also.
To me, the R-32s are the N, just as the R-10s are the A.
But you also can catch a Brighton Express in London
A very good reason not to go there.
That's very good for riders. Bravo!
If LIRR fares within city zones (Zones 1-3 if I am not mistaken) were the same as subway fares (let us say a flat $1.50 for now) would the increase of utilization within the city make up for the loss in fare revenue, or would it result in NYCT subway and bus riders subsidizing LIRR patrons even more than they do now?
The impact of subway fares within NYC on LIRR and MNR traffic would be small, because so few MNR and LIRR stations are within the city limits - 13 MNR and 27 LIRR by my count, including GCT and Penn. The main beneficiaries would be the stations in Queens beyond Flushing on the Port Wash line, Hollis and Queens Village, Riverdale, and the central Bronx MNR stations that are some distance from subway lines, like Tremont and Fordham. I am not familiar enought with these services to know whether their frequencies are sufficient to encourage (or handle) increased ridership if the fares fell.
By contrast, as I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are over 300 national rail stations within London's boundaries.
Fytton.
In answer to your question, yes, the commuter rail lines in NY could handle additional traffic.
The Port Washington line is double-tracked all the way to just outside city limits (Great Neck station) and could easily handle 4 trains per hour - however the caveat is that west of Woodside station, things get dicey for that kind of frequency into Manhattan due to the East River tunnel bottlenecks. Once the 63rd Street tube is open for traffic, this could be reassessed.
I take it commuter rail in London does not have the same bottleneck problems NY has...
They have LOTS and LOTS of Central London stations. At least a dozen, maybe more. We here in NYC have but two in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn.
wayne
"We here in NYC have but two in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn."
Well, actually, three in Manhattan (Harlem-125) and one in Queens as well (Jamica Station serves an important business district as well as the airport when AirTrain opens) - but your point is well taken.
>>> and one in Queens as well <<<
Have Woodside and Flushing been closed?
Tom
No, they have not. The thread refers to major terminals or large stations. Actually, Woodside does qualify - thank you for pointing that out.
"The impact of subway fares within NYC on LIRR and MNR traffic would be small, because so few MNR and LIRR stations are within the city limits - 13 MNR and 27 LIRR by my count, including GCT and Penn. The main beneficiaries would be the stations in Queens beyond Flushing on the Port Wash line, Hollis and Queens Village, Riverdale, and the central Bronx MNR stations that are some distance from subway lines, like Tremont and Fordham. I am not familiar enought with these services to know whether their frequencies are sufficient to encourage (or handle) increased ridership if the fares fell."
The most succesful commuter rail stations within the city limits are (a) those in comfortably middle class neighborhoods where the fare is worth it if the time to Manhattan is greatly reduced (esp. Port Wash line, Riverdale, but also Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and a few others) and (b) ones offering service to the suburbs without the need to go into Manhattan (Jamaica, which of course is also a significant center and a place to change trains, Fordham, Marble Hill, Woodside).
The ones that have done worst are in poorer neighborhoods where the money makes a big difference. Many have even been abandoned or had service cut to almost nil (S Bronx, SE Queens) in the typical downward spiral of poorer service and poorer patronage augmenting each other.
I know the S Bronx and SE Queens periodically agitate for better rail service, but it might not get heavily used at current prices. At a straight $1.50 those stations might have a lot more demand.
Certainly also a $1.50 fare would move a lot of riders from the E/F to the LIRR at Jamaica, Kew Gardens, and Forest Hills.
the typical downward spiral of poorer service and poorer patronage augmenting each other.
At a straight $1.50 those stations might have a lot more demand.
Certainly also a $1.50 fare would move a lot of riders from the E/F to the LIRR at Jamaica, Kew Gardens, and Forest Hills
All that is very true. That was also the truth on the Lower Montauk Branch stations also. Service was poor to say the least, so no one rode. No one rode so they could keep service poor and blame poor patronage. It's the chicken and egg scenario. Of course the stations were basically a "stop" at a grade crossing or something similar, and that also added to the poor patronage. (at least Woodside, FH, and Kew Gardens are "real" stations.) But anyway, the fare was also fairly expensive at the lower Montauk Stations (just like the other Queens stations). The difference was that the two to four trains a day that were run on the line were rush hour trains, so the fare was high, as it was peak-fare whenever you used stations such as Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, etc.
I had used Fresh Pond and Glendale occasionally because I was living in Ridgewood at the time, and it was convenient, as I didn't have to take a subway or bus to get to the station (and go all the way to Jamaica). I could just walk. I would have used them much more if they were priced more competitievely with the subway, and if the schedules were a bit more convenient also.
Well those stations are water under the bridge, but back to FH, Kew Gardens, etc, i think the crowding on the Queens subway line (and the 7 also considering Woodside and Flushing-Main Street on the Port Washington Line) would be less if the fare was not so high at the Queens stations. (The Brooklyn line stations would also be more used if the price wasn't so high. I have used the East New York - Atlantic Avenue transfer many times.)
The LIRR however is geared towards non-city residents though, or Nassau and Suffolk residents traveling to Penn or Flatbush. There is no service geared towards intra Nassau/Suffolk service or Queens and Brooklyn Riders. Making the fare between Manhattan and Queens cheaper would attract a lot more city residents, and take some of them off of the Queens Line or the 7 line. (or giving Queens riders on the old Montauk Branch who have no other subway access) The 7 would be a lot less busy if the Queens riders could use Main Street on the Port Washington Branch (and the other Queens stations along the line) and even Woodside on the LIRR. They are not going to do that if they have to pay $5.50 (peak fare) as opposed to $1.50 ($1.36) for a subway ride. Of course the fair should be a bit more on the LIRR than the subway, but not by that much. The LIRR obviously no desire to move outer-borough residents to Penn Station.
No Ron, Travelcards can be used for all rail lines in London. The system is integrated (more or less). Paris is the same.
Simon
Swindon
That's truly excellent then. Thank you for correcting me.
However, are they not still at a disadvantage schedule-wise (you don't have to consult a schedule to use Underground)?
In and around london there is a vast network of surface lines which operate to all areas of the Greater London Area. On jointly used lines frequencies are every few minutes whilst most branches operate every twenty to thirty minutes. In South London particularly the network is such that there is no need for the Underground. Most lines originate at a main London termius and quite a number have intermediate access to the Underground for travel within central London. Valid travel cards can be used on all routes and modes with the exception of the Heathrow Express.
Simon
Swindon UK
I still think it would be nice to extend Baker Loo to Lewisham (via Denmark Hill etc) and Victoria to Beckenham Jct (via Herne Hill/W Dulwich etc), those would be the two most logical extensions of the LU.
wayne
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Whenever you have service which does not approximate Underground service frequencies, you have unmet demand.
I have heard Londoners from south of the Thames, by the way, accusing the transport authorities of neglecting that part of the city.
I have to say thsat in my experience the transport arrangements in South London are excellent. I am off there taday, and will be travelling to Sutton. Underground to Victoria then train to Sutton with a choice of service. All on my one day travelcard.
Simon
Swindon UK
Good job you weren't travelling from Wimbledon to Sutton on wednesday last week. 90 minutes wait for a train (should be every 30 minutes). I took a bus, most people do! Oh yes, and the train from Tattenham corner to London was over 20 minutes late. They run every 30 minutes, but judging by the loadings, most people gave up with using the line years ago.
I did a rough count which I posted a couple of weeks ago here: there are actually *more* national rail stations within the Greater London boundaries than there are tube stations (about 310 versus 265), plus thirty-odd each on the Docklands Light Rail and Croydon Tramlink. You can't evaluate rail transport in London on the basis of the tube alone. National rail provides a large proportion of the total service, its fares are not higher than the tubes's, in contrast with NYC) and some of the services are good
In a way, Simon Billis and Max Roberts are both right about the south London rail services. The frequent national rail services (some of which, unlike the tube, have express services) are well used and fill the need. The less frequent ones are less satisfactory - one cancellation of a half-hourly service and people are waiting an hour. The Wimbledon-Sutton line, which Max instanced, has been a failure pretty much ever since it was built (in the 1920s) - it was designed to be an extension of the District Line, Wimbledon branch, but fell foul of the wars between the (then privately owned) Underground group and Souther Railway, and ended up as an orphan child of the Southern. Essentially its natural customers mostly use Morden tube station. My own opinion would be that it should be converted to light rail and made part of the Croydon Tramlink network; a 10-minute frequency of LRVs might be the saving of it.
Fytton.
So why not run the District line there instead! Use it for, say, the Edgware Road service.
wayne
My journey to Sutton from Victora today was fine. I had a fast (express)train on the return run (Clapham, Victoria only) which took about 25 minutes.
Form time to time there are problems with most rail services. London Underground is certainly not an exception. Go and watch the frantic passengers waiting for a "Heathrow" at Acton Town.
Simon
ex London occassional railfan
As a South Londoner, I completely disagree with Simon's claim. With over 25 years of usage behind me (as opposed to an occasional visits as a railfan), I feel highly qualified to do this.
Rather than have a long rant, I will simply state that compared with the Underground, rail services into South London are awful in every way imaginable, especially the 'South Central' area (services to London Bridge and Victoria).
Plugging these lines into the Underground network would be extremely easy, and would get around the miserable process of having to transfer to the Underground at a main line terminal in order to get anywhere useful. The traffic figures for various stations around London bear this out: people prefer a one seat ride to a fast ride to a terminal and a change of train.
If Cockfosters can have a one seat ride right through to the centre of London, why not important South London destinations?
Thameslink does not count:
Brighton Line services don't actually stop anywhere apart from East Croydon.
Sutton Line services branch into every half hour.
During Sundays and rush hours, various services either do not run, or run too infrequently to be useful.
Would my two ideas for LU extensions (Baker Loo to Lewisham, interchange with DLR; Victoria to Beckenham Jct, interchange with Croydon Tramlink) be of any consideration?
wayne
Wow.
Do you really expect the whole of the travelling public of South London the cram onto hot sweaty tube size vehicles with little ventilation, stopping at all stations, just to save a change at one on the London termini. I think you will find that most commuters walk to their destination.
Thameslink does count especially with stops at Kings Cross, Farringdon, St Pauls, and Blackfriars. Brighton Line services stoping at Clapham Junction for almost every station in Souhthern England including the service to Willesdon and the North London Line.
The major problem is one of marketing, and packageing the network into identifiable lines with pretty colours would end some confusion especially to tourists and the like.
Your comment about a one set ride from Cockfosters is only true if the destination station is on the Piccadily line. Change at Kings Cross for Sutton which incidentally has a fifteen minute service including Thameslink (except for today when there was a power failure).
Perhaps we ought to look to Paris and the RER network, and full size trains e.g Crosslink.
Simon
Ex London occasional railfan
In fact that's a BIG minus for NYC - the Commuter Trains are more expensive than the Subway.
Noted from other posts...
> If you're south of the Thames, there isn't much rail service.
If you're south of the Thames, there isn't much Underground service. That's not the same as not having much rail service. Rememebr, LT Travelcards are good on the railroads within the 6 zones of the Underground. Look at this map for details:
http://www.thetube.com/content/tubemap/images/london_connnections.gif
Nice map, very detailed, too bad some of the colours are wrong!
(Central, BakerLoo, Met, E.London to name a few)
wayne
What can I say, it comes from their official site.
Thank you for posting that.
Ron,the reason Brixton and indeed most of south east London is not served by the tube is due to the poor soil quality for tunneling.
The suburban (above ground) rail network is very dense here compared with other London areas as a dirct result.
-,
Brixton is by no means poor, House prices are very very high as is ANYWHERE in London that is within 5 minutes of the Tube.
.
Rob
Bad example - Brixton is the southern terminus of the Victoria Line, which is one of the more reliable tube lines. Other parts of south London with poor or ethnic minority populations do have poorer services. And house prices are horrendous *everywhere* in London, regardless of transport links, ethnic mix or any other variable!
"Bad example - Brixton is the southern terminus of the Victoria Line, which is one of the more reliable tube lines
Actually, it is an excellent example of poor service. Brixton needs more than just a terminal. That's like saying that Ozone Park has excellent subway service because the A train has a terminal there.
Extend the Victoria line, and bring another tube or light-rail line over, and then we'll talk again.
Another con for London
- No railfan windows of any kind.
At least the R142s and R143s allow passengers to look out the front of the train, even if it is a little blurry. London Underground trains have a windowless wall and door separating the cab from the rest of the train.
Except the Docklands.
Simon
Swindon UK
Ah yes, the DLR, that was a magificent ride out to Lewisham, with the City lights just coming on (too bad it was cloudy), we had the Railfan SEAT aboard #85, didn't we.
There's a peephole at the operators's cab door; I snuck a look out one from the rear of the train whilst on the Northern Line on my trip from Mill Hill East to Euston. It was better than nothing.
wayne
Right, I forgot about the Docklands. But is it part of LU or is run separately by another transit agency?
Now part of LU.
Simon
Swindon UK
Unless things have changed since we were there together a few weeks ago, Simon, I think you are wrong about the Docklands. It has been privatized and now belongs to Serco. But LU tickets are accepted on it.
Fytton.
I think Serco look after and maintain the equipment under a contract with LU. I will check.
Simon
Swindon UK
It would appear that Serco and the franchise operator of the Docklands and that DLR Ltd are the franchiser.
It would appear that Serco are the franchise operator of the Docklands and that DLR Ltd are the franchiser.
And DLR Ltd is owned by 'Transport for London' (TfL), the transport arm of the new (greater) London city administration. At present TfL is responsible for London Buses, DLR, Croydon TramLink, Taxis, River Services and London's road network. It is they who will administer the road pricing scheme.
Bizarly, TfL has (as yet) no responsibility for London Underground. That is owned and run by London Underground Ltd (LUL), which is owned by the(national) government. The reason is that LUL is in the process of franchising the operation of the Underground lines to three private sector operators/maintainers. TfL opposes that move, so the transfer of LUL to TfL has been delayed until the franchises are fait accompli.
Big politics on this issue going on between the London Mayor and national politicians. Right in the middle of this politicing is one Bob Kiley, late of the MTA and now chief executive of TfL.
See here for more on DLR Ltd. You can see the row between TfL and LUL reflected on their respective web sites: Tfl and LUL.
A little blurry? Maybe you say that because you live in the Bronx. Try it underground. I'm afraid that's more than a little blurry.
It's way better than just a peephole, I'll say that much.
It depends. I had a decent view through the ad-hoc peephole on an F train (R-46) this afternoon. (It's largely a question of motivation. When I want to watch the scenery go by, I want a large window, and fuzz is a minor impediment. When I want to study the details of the track layout, fuzz stands in the way while a peephole is a mere inconvenience. Unfortunately for me, I operate more often in the second mode.)
Given the choice between a largish but fuzzy window like on the R-142 and a small but clear window on the R-62, I'll take the latter any day. (But which genius put a coat hook directly above that window?)
If the problem is light infiltration, I still wonder why the obvious solution of a sliding curtain separating the operating position from the rest of the cab wasn't implemented.
MBTA does the sliding curtain thing on the Blue and Orange Line trains. The right cab window has a curtain, probably to avoid light reflection and to keep people from looking over the T/O's shoulder. The small R62 window is clear. It, too, is better than a peephole. Or nothing at all, like in Montreal.
Sometimes, the peepholes in the cab doors are missing, provididng a very limited view. Unfortunately, the only time I got these trains was when the car I was in was the last car.
So how good is the view out of the peephole?
Not very. The R142A "railfan window" is better since you aren't trying to look into a hole less than 1 inch in diameter.
One more thing...
In London or Paris, most of the busier stations have walkways by direction of traffic. That means "way outs(exits)" and "entrances" traffic are separated. Same rules goes to interchanges(transfers).
It also means longer walks, but the 72/Bway situation would not happen there.
Of course in Paris, there are quite a few people trying to go against the traffic, to avoid paying the fare. But that is, I believe, another issue.
Not ALL the trains are tiny; the Circle, District (all flavours), Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City, East London lines all offer 60' standard size cars; only the tube lines (their equivalent of our IRT) run smallish trains. And even they're 51-foot long, just not as wide.
wayne
Yet as I remember, the Central Line trains are pretty large, n'est ce pas? And the central line is a pretty deep tube....you need lifts at Lancaster Gate and Queensway to get to the surface as I remember.
Regular sized 1992 Tube Stock is used on Central Line. There are lift-only stations all over the place; one in particular that got me was Covent Garden (Piccadilly line), smack in the middle of the city, very crowded, tough to get in and out of. Another one is Edgware Road on the Baker Loo, I believe it is lift only.
wayne
There are lift-only stations all over the place; one in particular that got me was Covent Garden (Piccadilly line), smack in the middle of the city, very crowded, tough to get in and out of.
Not to mention utterly pointless - it is a grand distance of 0.16 miles, or if you prefer 845 feet (or 257 metres), from Leicester Square. It is actually quicker to walk from Leicester Square than to try to get out of Covent Garden. It is the only station in Central London which I think needs closing outright.
Try telling that to the thousands who use it everyday. No one could find Covent Garden if the station was closed.
Simon
Swindon UK
"Try telling that to the thousands who use it everyday. No one could find Covent Garden if the station was closed."
As Yogi Berra once said, nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.
Plus a nickel ain't worth a dime anymore.
No one could find Covent Garden if the station was closed.
Yes, it would be very funny watching the bemused tourists wandering along High Holborn!
Yes but -- Covent Garden is the trendiest tourist area in London. For much of the week the lifts at Covent Garden and the escalators at Leicester Square are both seriously overcrowded, indicating that both are needed to handle the passenger traffic. Covent Garden station is very well situated right in the centre of the tourist area. Leicester Square serves the theatre district and is also an interchange (albeit a rather unpleasant one with long walks) with the Northern Line. Both are needed, even though they are so close together.
Would it make you happier if they joined up the platforms and called them all one very long station with entrances at both ends (8-) ?
That would make it like one of those "stations" on the State Street Subway in Chicago. (I think the platform runs continuosly for 4 stations.)
I'd be more happy if a new Line got built NE - SW across Central London, maybe running in from somewhere in the East End, then Old St, St Paul's, Ludgate Circus, Aldwych, the old Jubilee Line platforms at Charing X, under the parks to Victoria then under the King's Road to Parson's Green. That would take a lot of weight off the Piccadilly Line.
Anyway, however horrible Leicester Square is, Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Circus are both worse. Also, there are other stations walkable from the Covent Garden area - for instance Charing Cross, Temple and formerly Aldwych (re-open it - the shuttle was cool!!!).
Agreed that a NE-SW line is needed - Mayor Ken's Hackney-Chelsea line is it, though heaven knows whether it will be built before the Second Avenue Subway!
Tottenham Court Road is worse than Leicester Square, but Oxford Circus isn't so bad - convenient cross-platform interchange between the Victoria Line and the Bakerloo Line is a good feature, which provides the way of getting from Kings Cross to Charing Cross avoiding those long tunnels at Leicester Square.
Still not a reason for closing Covent Garden!
Mayor Ken's Hackney-Chelsea line is it, though heaven knows whether it will be built before the Second Avenue Subway!
The proposed route of the Chelney Line isn't really a very good one. I agree with the section along the King's Road and to Victoria, but routing it via Piccadilly Circus, Tottenham Court Road and King's Cross will just increase the number of passengers trying to change at those stations (which are busy enough already, esp TCR) and fail to relieve the Southern half of the Circle. I therefore prefer an alignment more like the Fleet Line was meant to have, via Charing Cross and along the Strand.
I reckon the Second Avenue Line will reach Downtown before ground is broken on the King's Road.
Tottenham Court Road is worse than Leicester Square
Exactly... Leicester Square isn't bad (I've only used it three times ever and never had a problem - TCR I've had trouble getting into the station several times and once decided to walk to Goodge St).
but Oxford Circus isn't so bad - convenient cross-platform interchange between the Victoria Line and the Bakerloo Line is a good feature,
Agreed the cross-platform transfer is nice, but the Central Line station is something else...
Plus Oxford Circus is probably the station which most packs out the Bakerloo Line (Piccadilly Circus and Baker Street run it close).
Still not a reason for closing Covent Garden!
It's a horrid station to get out of (I've never tried to get into it - at certain times they don't let you it's so bad - Leicester Square copes then)! It makes Aldwych seem like it was good and that was closed because of the lifts. What I really want to do is cannibalise the lifts at Covent Garden to repair the lifts at Aldwych so we can have the shuttle back!
I guess you could call the Circle, District, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City, and East London lines, the Sub-Surface lines, the B-division of the LU. But are they the same width as our B-division cars?
Pretty close, i.e. the D78 stock is the same as the R32/R38 etc. (doesn't look anything like it, however)
wayne
Chris W is being very fair, so as a Brit can I make two more points in NY's favour:
The wonderful historic decoration of the NY stations (mosaics etc)
The London fares which are far too high
London needs to put windows in its transverse cab doors or at least put windows in the cab wall like the MBTA does. Is there a reason they don't?
the main reason is that wall between passenger saloon and cab is in fact the bulkhead on older stock with the cab just tagged on!
the bulkhead has some electrical gear on it also.
Rob
I thought that might be why. But couldn't they put a full-size window in the cab or "J" door instead of just a peephole?
I dont think it is right to make comparisons. Each system is different, each has merit, and each has weakness. But I have to say New York comes first because the pizza is better, and you get pickles at Jacksons Hole.
Simon
Swindon UK
Oh? And what about that famous restaurant where the Queen gets her food? I shopped there with my uncle - can't remember the name at the moment..
The name is McDonalds :). We have one ot two.
Simon
Swindon UK
I've been to them. They have McVeggie Burgers not offered in the US.
Seriously, though, there is a combination food store and restaurant (offers other things too) which has a contract with Buckingham Palace. It's smack downtown. It's trendy and overpriced, and I recall being able to browse for every kind of tea you can possibly imagine.
2 big pros NYC
1. During the hot summer months. almost all trains now have effective air conditioning.
2. Flat 1 fare zones much much easier to administer.
Biggest pros LON
1. Signs telling pax how long to next train
2. Adequate service even as late as 11 PM. Most lines still have trains running every 3 or 4 minutes unlike NYC which considers a 12 minute headway as adequate service
1. Signs telling pax how long to next train
When they first starting putting up those digital signs on platforms (the colorful ones, usually displaying the date and time), I thought that is what they had planned.
For example, If you were at let's say 33rd Street, the sign would say, "The next downtown local 6 train is now at 51st Street".
That IS what is planned. It's just that the rest of the equipment needed to make that happen hasn't been installed yet.
David
Does this equipment require the completion of the Control Center on 54th Street where the old bus depot was?
When will that be finished?
The new Control Center is indeed part of the project. I don't have a completion date, though...I believe the building is nearly finished, but it has yet to be outfitted.
David
The LIRR offers audible announcements of that type -but I don't know if all lines are included (the Port Washington branch offers that).
Yeah, but in London, many lines branch. If it is 4 minutes between trains on the Central Line, it means it is 8 minutes between trains if your destination is West Ruislip, for example. The District Line always runs frequently between Tower Hill and Earl's Court although it branches so many different ways on the west side of London, so service is not every 2-3 minutes to Wimbeldon. Don't worry. They don't send trains to Upminster every 2-3 minutes all day either. Many District Line trains turn back at Tower Hill and other places along the line.
Yes, I noticed that too, trains would terminate at places other than their (map) advertized terminals - i.e. the Piccadilly Line train that got me as far as Arnos Grove and the Metropolitan Line train that refused to go any further than Moorgate. There were others too.
wayne
We have them here in NYC, too. (I've suggested adding one more to the list.)
Here are what I believe to be all the LU terminals:
Bakerloo: Harrow & Wealdstone, Queen's Park, Elephant & Castle
Central: West Ruislip, Ealing Broadway, Woodford, Hainault, Epping
Circle: N/A
District: Ealing Broadway, Richmond, Wimbeldon, Putney Bridge (I think), Olympia, Edgeware Road, Tower Hill, Upminster
East London: Shoreditch, Whitechapel, New Cross, New Cross Gate
Hammersmith & City: Hammersmith, Paistow, Barking
Jubilee: Stanmore, Willesden Green, Stratford
Metropolitan: Aldgate, Baker Street, Amersham, Chesam, Chalfont & Latimer, Watford, Moor Park, Uxbridge
Northern: High Barnet, Mill hill East, Edgeware, Kennington, Morden
Piccadilly: Heathrow, Rayners Lane, Uxbridge, Arnos Grove, Cockfosters
Victoria: Walthamstow Central, Brixton
Waterloo & City: Waterloo, Bank
Many stations have what's called "dropouts" aka turnarounds, and to mention them all would indeed be a tedious, if not impossible task (for NY'ers anyway). But most of WMATA's listing is indeed correct, but there are a couple errors to correct/add (additions have multiple dropouts):
Bakerloo: add Stonebridge Park
District: Olympia shuttle operates between Olympia & High Street Kensington (no Dinky mainline service to Olympia)
H & C: Whitechapel is the weekend & evening terminal when Barking is only served by the District.
Piccadilly: Northfields
Victoria: Seven Sisters
I totally forgot Whitechapel, my bad. I was not aware that the Olympia trains went to High Street althougn I am looking at my tube map now and the line to Olympia only connects to the Edgeware Road branch. Most of these dropouts are at or near yards, I have a track map of the Underground which shows where all the yards are.
The District Line is definitely a weird breed. It's service paterns are like this:
Upminster - Richmond
Upminster - Ealing Broadway
Upminster - Wimbledon
Edgware Road - Wimbledon
Olympia - High Street Kensington
That's correct but there are intermediate termini (not everything goes to Upminster in the east) - Mansion House, Tower Hill, and some other places out to the east
and some other places out to the east
Like Plaistow, the one word in the English language with a silent "i".
'Like Plaistow, the one word in the English language with a silent "i".'
But the cultured recorded lady who does the automated PA announcements on the Hammersmith & City line trains pronounces it wrongly as "Playstow", not correctly as "Plastow"!
But the cultured recorded lady who does the automated PA announcements on the Hammersmith & City line trains pronounces it wrongly as "Playstow"
How irritating - and how funny! I prefer the human announcements anyway - there's nothing like them sometimes...
On the Midlands Metro that you despise so much, James, there is the reverse: Bradley correctly pronounced "Braydly". And the (different) cultured recorded announcement lady got that one wrong too.....
But it's not the *only* word in the language with that silent i - how about plaid, the piece of tartan cloth that Scots used to wrap round themselves?
Bradley correctly pronounced "Braydly". And the (different) cultured recorded announcement lady got that one wrong too.....
Yes, Bradley Lane on the site of the former Bradley & Moxley station. Quite what's wrong with the name Bradley & Moxley, I don't know, because the station sits conveniently between Bradley and Moxley. It's actually one of the better placed stations on the line!
how about plaid, the piece of tartan cloth that Scots used to wrap round themselves?
That silent "i" helps differentiate it from a loopy Welsh political party at least!
I decided not to list the intermediate terminals for the sake of not confusing everyone. To do so would be the same as posting something like this:
These are the routes of the A line:
207 St - Far Rockaway
207 St - Lefferts Blvd
59 St - Rockaway Park
Rockaway Park - 168 St
Rockaway Park - Dyckman St
Lefferts Blvd - Dyckman St
Far Rockaway - Dyckman St
Euclid Av - Lefferts Blvd
Euclid Av - Far Rockaway
As you can see, it makes it very complicated. Better to be simplistic sometimes.
The District Line is definitely a weird breed. It's service paterns are like this:
Upminster - Richmond
Upminster - Ealing Broadway
Upminster - Wimbledon
Edgware Road - Wimbledon
Olympia - High Street Kensington
District: add Parson's Green
Metropolitan: add Moorgate, Rickmansworth (very few trains actually terminate at these)
Northern: I think it's possible for trains to terminate at one of the Tooting stations, also Highgate
Victoria: Victoria (though I think almost all trains go to Brixton now)
I figured Highgate once I looked at the track map after writing up my list. Are you sure any trains are scheduled to terminate at Victoria?
I was on one that "dropped out" at Victoria.
The Tooting Broadway station has a terminal track too, in fact there was an accident there in 1971 when a train of 1938 Tube Stock lost its way and ran into the end of the tunnel, the driver had been reading a book(!), unfortunately it was his last.
wayne
Are you sure any trains are scheduled to terminate at Victoria?
I don't think any are actually scheduled at the moment, but in reality it does happen (say if the trains have bunched and there is congestion in the Brixton area - quite easy with a rush hour frequency of 28tph).
Heh - just wait til you get on a train which says "Fast Amersham" on the front...
2. Adequate service even as late as 11 PM.
Yes, but we don't have trains all night or (shock horror) on 12/25.
"Yes, but we don't have trains all night or (shock horror) on 12/25."
Well, since the Queen is head of the Church of England, can she not issue a proclamation allowing it?
:0)
Well, since the Queen is head of the Church of England, can she not issue a proclamation allowing it?
I wish. She's got herself into enough of a row over intervening in the trial of the late Princess Diana's butler.
Yeah, nothing like a monarch butting in where she's not wanted (yawn).
There's no Underground service on Christmas Day? Wow, that is shocking!
Yep, and on boxing day, the patrons take turns driving the train driver around the system while he catches a snooze. :)
There's no Underground service on Christmas Day? Wow, that is shocking!
I find that to be a little outrageous for two reasons:
-For the people who observe Christmas Day, how are they supposed to get anywhere (if they don't have a car), such as family, etc?
-For people who aren't even Christian, why should they all be inconvenienced?
I know the freedoms are a bit different in England than here, but I find it absurd to shut the subway system down on any religious holiday, whether it's part of the "Queen's" religion or not. Actually, I observe Christmas, but if I wanted to go somewhere, or to family, or whatever someone decides to do, I would want to be able to get there. I guess we are spoiled in New York with a 24/7/365 subway system. The truth is, while I'm sure there are plenty religious people who observe Christmas for what it is, but I think most people are not thinking of the "real" Christmas when they are shopping for their Christmas gifts. I feel it's become mostly a commercial holiday. I even know a Jewish/Catholic couple and always get a kick out of how they celebrate their mutual holidays in Decemeber. He's an Italian Catholic, and she is Jewish. Their decorations - a blue and white decorated Christmas Tree. A white poinsetta with blue foil. Santa Claus and a Nativity Scene next to a Menorah. It's a good compromise I guess, as mixed religion marriges like that are difficult around the holidays, as so many holidays are religion driven, or at least religion based. Come-on though, like people like that or in general are really thinking of the Nativity scene on Christmas Day - the subway should be open, at the very least for people who want to visit family or aren't Christian. And if it's a problem of workers wanting to be with their family, I'm sure there are plenty of non-Christian, or non religious workers who would love to get their double pay that day.
I'd like to know if there have been complaints voiced against keeping the LU completely shut down all day on Christmas Day and how many. London's a pretty diverse place, and I'm sure there are a significant amount of Londoners who don't practice Christianity.
>>> I'm sure there are a significant amount of Londoners who don't practice Christianity. <<<
Why are you so hung up on the religious angle? I am sure that most Londoners no longer worship Belenos (the Celtic god of the sun), but they still shut down the LU every night at midnight. Christmas is a family holiday with virtually all businesses closed, so like the hours after midnight, the LU closes because of a perceived lack of riders, and Londoners are used to it and accept it.
Tom
I'm not so hung up on it. I'm just curious to know if anyone's ever brought it up. I was surprised that the system shut down on Christmas day. Am I wrong to be surprised by it?
>>> Am I wrong to be surprised by it? <<<
Possibly, and maybe at some time in the future as conditions change, the LU will run on Christmas, but remember it is a two day holiday, (December 26th is "boxing day"). The 25th is traditionally spent close to home with the family, with a big midday meal and relaxation in front of the telly. The 26th is the day to visit others and take presents to them (the Christmas boxes). It is similar to the difference between Thanksgiving and the day after Thanksgiving in the U.S. (without the start of the Xmas shopping season).
Tom
Christmas is a family holiday
Maybe for your family. Not for mine.
There's always Festivus. :)
>>> Maybe for your family. Not for mine <<<
Not for me either since I have no family, and probably not for many immigrants living in London, but if you look at the context of the statement, it is true for London in general.
Tom
I can't speak for anyone else there, but I can promise that Christmas is not a "family holiday" (or any other sort of holiday) for the substantial Orthodox Jewish community of London.
Let's not forget the substantial Muslim community, which IINM is the largest in Europe outside the Balkans.
Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwaanza (did I spell it right?) are all family holidays.
wayne
Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwaanza (did I spell it right?) are all family holidays.
Yes they are, depending on whichever one, if any, you celebrate. Although you don't need an excuse to spend time with family.
There is no right or wrong one. Most people are the religion that their parents brought them into. It all depends on which one you were brought up on. I was brought up with Christmas, so that is the one I celebrate. If I was brought up with Hanukkah, that would be the one, and so forth. The important thing really is that there are family holidays, not the reason for the gathering. I have no right to criticize anyone's religion, just like no one has the right to criticize mine. Just enjoy December (that's when most of these religions have their celebrations for some reason).
Mandatory Transit conntent: Just be glad New York's subway runs on November 30th (early this year) and December 25th.
No, no, no. Those three holidays are not equivalents. Chanukah specifically celebrates the victory of religion over assimilation -- and, ironically, the uneducated have assimilated it into Christmas. In fact, it has nothing to do with Christmas. At all.
The primary ritual of Chanukah is the lighting of candles each night for eight nights. Aside from that, they're basically normal days. Jews of all stripes go to work on Chanukah.
If you're looking for family holidays in Judaism, look at the major Biblical holidays in the fall, spring, and early summer, as well as the Sabbath (every week). An integral part of those celebrations are two or three elaborate meals each day. Observant Jews travel only on foot, so time is spent at home or with the local community. Going to work, watching TV, and even reading SubTalk are prohibited.
Chanukah is completely different. Aside from a few minutes each evening, a day of Chanukah is pretty much like any other day of the year.
Oh, and Chanukah usually comes out before December 25. This year it begins on the evening of November 29 and ends on December 7.
Thanks for the clarification, but there is one upcoming family holiday that everyone shares if a part of this great country - Thanksgiving! We all have a lot to be thankful for. Thanks to all the people that gave their lives many years ago, we are able to even discuss our religious differences. There are so many parts of the world where this basic right is not in existence. There is so much killing in the world based on religion. I'm sure that whatever Higher Being there is did not have "killing in His name" as an idea of how the world should be. It's a shame that so many wars had to be fought for scores of centuries for that exact reason. Times have not changed all that much, have they.
Well enough of that, the subway is also open on Thanksgiving, so there's that mandatory transit again....
And the best day of the year to ride the subway is the day after Thanksgiving. Never had a seat during rush hour? Now's your chance.
Except during parade time. West side lines mostly.
Peace,
ANDE
That's on Thanksgiving itself. The day after Thanksgiving is quiet. I had many seats to choose from last year on a morning rush hour 2 train.
I DID NOT say that they were equivalent, only that they were "family holidays", i.e. days of specific (albeit different) observance, which are celebrated with family and loved ones.
wayne
And my point is that Judaism has many family holidays, but Chanukah is not among them. People travel hundreds of miles, missing even more work than they already have to, to spend Rosh Hashanah or Pesach with family. I can't imagine anyone doing that for Chanukah.
I can't imagine anyone doing that for Chanukah.
Actually, in my family we do... not for the whole holiday, of course, but we try and have at least one night when everyone will be together. Conveniently, it will be the first night this year (and the second one too). And of course Passover. Our family doesn't make the effort for Rosh HaShanah, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Members of your family travel hundreds of miles just to spend Chanukah together? I'm surprised.
Members of your family travel hundreds of miles just to spend Chanukah together? I'm surprised.
Yes, we do... our older son (even though he now identifies as a Southern Baptist, thanks to his ex-girlfriend's father, a minister) comes 465 miles, our younger daughter comes 210... older daughter (non-Jewish) can't make it (2500 miles), younger son is still at home. Sometimes we're the ones travelling... when our younger daughter was in college in Staunton, Virginia, we made the trip there for the last night one year (and our older son came up from NC). Long story, but the short of it is that I grew up with an interfaith background and my wife was raised Episcopalian, and for a long time religion of any variety was unimportant to us. One year, for whatever reason, I became aware that something was missing... found myself in a Judaica shop browsing and talking with the staff that fall, kept going back and talking more, ended up purchasing a menorah and a book with a Chanukah service and brought them home on the first night of Chanukah that year. I explained to my wife and children some of what had been going on in my head, and proceeded to set the menorah up and go through the service. When we finished the service my younger daughter hugged me and said "Daddy, what took you so long?" (to return to the faith) and I knew that our lives would never be the same. So for us it is a celebration of a major milestone in our lives as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for sharing that. You have very good reason to get together as a family.
Anon, you have nothing on me. I help celebrate Passover every spring with some Jewish friends of ours, and I'm a Catholic. What to you think of that one?
What a great story. Thanks for sharing.
No, no, no. Those three holidays are not equivalents. Chanukah specifically celebrates the victory of religion over assimilation -- and, ironically, the uneducated have assimilated it into Christmas. In fact, it has nothing to do with Christmas. At all.
Both Christmas and Chanukah observe the darkest time of the year.
Chanukah is a festival of artificial lights, when nights are at their longest. It infuses optimism in what would otherwise be a time of pessimism.
Christmas is a Christian adaptation of pagan rituals around the Winter solsctice, the darkest day of the year, but also optimistic in that the days now grow longer.
Kwanzaa is a modern invention to create an African alternative to Christmas and Chanukah, and is no more real or fake than the other two holidays.
Christmas is also celebrating the birth of Christ. Over the years pagan rituals have influenced the Church as to when the date is. Since there is no way of knowing exactly when Christ was born December was chosen to be the time to celebrate.
"Christmas is also celebrating the birth of Christ. Over the years pagan rituals have influenced the Church as to when the date is. Since there is no way of knowing exactly when Christ was born December was chosen to be the time to celebrate."
Actually, December was a very conscious (and very political)choice - see my response to David Greenberger's post.
Your point? At least two of those three holidays have historical contexts -- and they have nothing to do with each other. Candles are lit on Chanukah to commemorate a specific historical event. All that's similar about the "two C's" is that they're both in the winter. Does anyone suggest that Pesach and Easter are alike? (And there's even a historical connection between the two.) Chanukah is often closer to Thanksgiving than to Christmas.
What holidays others choose to celebrate is none of my business. I expect the same in return. I resent the notion that I'm doing something wrong by trying to treat December 25 no differently than December 24 or December 26 and I'm embarrassed by the ignorance of my coreligionists who make a big deal about Chanukah but haven't heard of Shavuot.
The only connection I can think of between Pesach and Easter doesn't actually involve Easter itself - Jesus celebrated Pesach with his disciples on the night before his Crucifixion (April 6, AD 30)
wayne
You're missing his point, David.
Religious holidays are multidimensional - they have historical contexts, as you describe, but they also frequently have seasonal or perhaps "environmental" contexts - though the latter may have been acquired more recently than the former. Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, but it's date was changed to coopt a Pagan winter festival. There is some evidence that the birthday was actually during the summer, then moved to January (where the Russian Orthodox Church still has it) then to December to help in converting pagans (and I do not use that term derogatorily) to Christianity.
While I perceive that Jewish holidays' basis is more stable, a holiday appears as it is expressed by the people who celebrate it today, and their interpretation, and the tone of that holiday and the season of the year do bear some relationship to each other. Nothing wrong with that.
Isn't Russian Orthodox Christmas in January, because they still use the old calendar?
You mean the Julian calendar?
I will defer that detail to someone else more in the know.
The move to December , though, was a very political move, clearly - and the move from summer to winter as well (although that is more controversial).
I don't believe that the holiday was ever in January. But the Orthodox Christmas is still in December, but 12/25 Julian falls on January 7 Gregorian.
In the 22nd Century, Orthodox Christmas will be 1/8. This is because Gregorian 2100 will NOT be a leap year, but Julian 2100 will be.
Now, how much do you want to bet that there will be plenty of computers in 2100 that will think there's a February 29th?
I don't doubt you.
>>> how much do you want to bet that there will be plenty of computers in 2100 that will think there's a February 29th? <<<
Damn!! It's the dreaded Y2.1K bug. I just checked my 1984 calendar program, and sure enough it is not compliant. I'll get to my programmer tomorrow to start on a patch. I wouldn't want to miss calendar any March dates. :-)
Tom
"Now, how much do you want to bet that there will be plenty of computers in 2100 that will think there's a February 29th?"
I doubt the operating systems will have a problem. I suspect that as part of the Y2K bug they fixed that little item too. Individual software that uses the date will probably be an issue. On the other hand, the problems are less serious than Y2K was.
Each Jewish holiday exists in a religious and/or historical context. Most have associated rituals, some more recent than others, some more widespread than others, but the rituals reflect the context.
The modern ritual of copying Christmas not only fails to reflect the religious and historical contexts of Chanukah, it directly contradicts them. As I said, it's none of my business what holidays someone else celebrates, but a Jew who celebrates Christmas is celebrating Christmas, not Chanukah.
"The modern ritual of copying Christmas not only fails to reflect the religious and historical contexts of Chanukah, it directly contradicts them."
In your eyes, yes. But then, interpretation is in the eye of the interpreter. Chanukah is a living tradition, is it not?
"As I said, it's none of my business what holidays someone else celebrates, but a Jew who celebrates Christmas is celebrating Christmas, not Chanukah."
It is not your place to decide that, any more than it would be someone else' place to decide you're being too stodgy about it.
Chanukah is a living tradition -- but it's a tradition. If I take the existing themes or rituals of Chanukah and modify them to my liking, that's still Chanukah, though some may wish to argue that it's not a proper rendition of Chanukah. If I never even take a serious look at the themes or rituals of Chanukah but instead invent something new and unrelated, even antithetical, then what I have is my own invention -- I may find it very meaningful or very enjoyable, but it's not Chanukah. Even if I, ignorant to the preexisting themes and rituals of Chanukah, call it Chanukah.
I believe Alice and Humpty Dumpty discuss this issue as well.
I do recall Lewis Carroll writing about that.
Still, your argument doesn't directly deal with where the line between "modify " and "invent" sits. It's a gray area...
There is a gray area, but it's sometimes clear that it's been crossed.
Again, to you (and that's fine for you). Not to others...
Then tell me, what do you think is an absolute baseline for Chanukah? What is the point below which the result, while perhaps a very nice celebration, is no longer Chanukah? (You agreed two posts back that there is such a point.)
There is such a point, but I will decline to place it - as I said, it is for each to judge in his/her own way. You have decided you know where that point it. I'm certain others out there know where the point is too - whether their placement is the same as yours is an open question.
Perhaps by surveying you can determine an average point or a median point...
I'm looking for an objective point.
I see you agree with Humpty Dumpty.
Not really. I'm trying to point out to you that each of us views this a bit differently. You want it in high contrast black and white - that isn't going to happen.
Christmas, although a religious holiday, has become a secular holiday in many ways, especially the last few decades. The commercialism of it has killed much of the religious meaning, at least in this country anyway. In Europe it is more of a religious holiday.
Actually all the "gift-giving" that Christmas has become in this country is not as extreme in some countries like Holland. Actually when my mother was growing up in Holland, December 25th was strictly a religious, church going, spend time with family type of day. Gift-giving was actually done on Saint Nicholas Day, which is actually December 5th. (I don't know if that is still the case there today).
Although I do agree with you that it would be a bit odd for Jewish people to celebrate "Christmas", I don't think it even has too much religious meaning for many Christians anymore either. Many atheists celebrate the secular Christmas. There are many things involved in the current "Christmas" that have absolutely nothing to do with "religious" Christmas. Santa Claus, a Christmas tree, reindeer, a flying sled, elfs, Macy's open extra hours. Please. Like any of this has anything to do with the "real" Christmas - whatever is left of the "religious" Christmas, of the birth of Christ, which wasn't even in December to begin with, is lost to many, and has absolutely nothing to do with the commercialism and business Christmas has become.
Of course, for many, Christmas is still a religious day, with good reason for those who observe it, but for many it isn't. Their kids can go to the mall and wade through the crowds there, and sit on Santa's lap, under a sled hanging from the ceiling.
Although I do agree with you that it would be a bit odd for Jewish people to celebrate "Christmas", I don't think it even has too much religious meaning for many Christians anymore either. Many atheists celebrate the secular Christmas. There are many things involved in the current "Christmas" that have absolutely nothing to do with "religious" Christmas. Santa Claus, a Christmas tree, reindeer, a flying sled, elfs, Macy's open extra hours. Please. Like any of this has anything to do with the "real" Christmas - whatever is left of the "religious" Christmas, of the birth of Christ, which wasn't even in December to begin with, is lost to many, and has absolutely nothing to do with the commercialism and business Christmas has become.
Christmas in fact was not traditionally a major holiday in Christian tradition. Easter was the big holiday, which actually makes sense - every person is born (Christmas), but in Christian doctrine only Jesus was resurrected (Easter). Christmas started becoming more of a big deal in a religious sense about 200 years ago, and its "commercialization" in the United States dates back 100 years or so.
As far as I'm concerned, my favorite holiday is Ground Hog Day.
I like your attitude...
" I resent the notion that I'm doing something wrong by trying to treat December 25 no differently than December 24 or December 26..."
I doubt any reasonable person thinks you're doing anything wrong. But if your plans for Dec. 25 involve expecting public services in the same manner as on Dec. 27th, you're out of luck.
This is because December 25th in the US and UK is a civil holiday established by the government in addition to being a religious holiday in specific religions. Therefore, no trash is collected, transit is on Sunday schedules (or no schedule in much of the UK it seems), etc.
In the US, with its specific disestablishment of religion, there is no legal significance to the religious nature that many but not all citizens give to the holiday. But you're still going to get the same (lack of) services you get on New Year's and Thanksgiving because of the civil aspect of the holiday.
The UK just takes this one giant step further. Even though there is no requirement to celebrate it as a religious holiday, they have taken the civil holiday aspect of Dec. 25 to such an extreme that you're basically stuck where you are if you don't have a car. There's no obligation related to the religious aspect of the holiday, just no public services either.
I don't disagree with any of this. I wish it weren't the case, and I don't see how a religious holiday can be constitutionally declared a civil holiday, but I don't make the rules.
Recall, David, that the UK has an official religion, and the Queen is the head of it. There is no such thing in the US. So, in England, that's acceptable; here it is not.
I know. I was referring to the U.S. in my post.
I thought that the Archbishop of Canterbury was the head of it.
wayne
No, he's not.
The Church of England was created by Henry VIII when the Pope refused to allow him to divorce Catherine of Aragon because she could not produce a male heir (this was in the 1530's). So he told the Pope to go mind his own business, and created a new religion to officially sanction his actions.
The history goes much deeper, of course, but that's the gist of the story as I remember it.
And as a result the C of E is a great religion - nice services, believe what you like - I think it's a great idea having a religion that has nothing to do with religion!
December 25, as a civil holiday is a flag-flying day.
Because I do not believe it should be a flag-flying day, I fly the flag upside down in protest.
"...I fly the flag upside down in protest."
To a member of the US Navy, that is the equivalent of a distress flare or a 911 call.
" I don't see how a religious holiday can be constitutionally declared a civil holiday, but I don't make the rules."
In the US it probably happened very gradually. The main indicator of a civil holiday is that government services are unavailable or extremely limited. In the 19th century there were hardly any government services, but probably a lot of employers closed for the day. Private trolley and coach services probably had limited schedules, if any, on Dec. 25.
As government started to provide more services, it would have been natural to provide the same holidays as the private companies did. Certainly MNRR's holiday schedule closely reflects that of the NY Central and New Haven Railroads (though I believe in certain cases like Washington's Birthday service has improved).
Today it would almost certainly be unconstitutional for a legislature to proclaim a religious holiday as also a civil holiday. But Dec. 25 is grandfathered in, so to speak.
This is because December 25th in the US and UK is a civil holiday established by the government in addition to being a religious holiday in specific religions.
In 1998 Birmingham City Council (www.birmingham.gov.uk) took the civil aspect to extremes and renamed Christmas Winterval. They were universally derided.
Here's what the Beeb said at the time:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/210672.stm
In 1999 Christmas was back in Birmingham, but the Christmas lights read "npower" - an electricity company.
The thing is, Birmingham did the right thing in 1998, but for the wrong reason.
Sounds like something they'd do in Alabama, except this is Birmingham Classic, not Birmingham America.
>>>Christmas is a Christian adaptation of pagan rituals ...
I was under the impression that ALL religious holidays are adaptation of Pagan rituals.
Peace,
ANDEE
Really? What is the pagan origin of Yom Kippur?
The Underground used to run on Christmas Day - when I was young, newly married, childless and impecunious, we didn't own a car, and we went out to Christmas dinner with another similar couple (American as it happened), using the tube to get there. If it hadn't been running the four of us would have had a less sociable Christmas. However, the major reasons for not running public transport on Christmas Day in the UK are (1) lack of demand and (2) desire to let as many public employees as possible spend Christmas with their families rather than at work. True, there are large non-Christian minorities in the UK (Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, etc.) plus plenty of non-believers, but Christmas is a public holiday and there is a tradition (mainly but not wholly Christian - one atheist friend of mine used to send cards saying "Greetings for the winter solstice") of families meeting up that day. We don't have Thanksgiving for that a month earlier, don't forget!
We don't have Thanksgiving for that a month earlier, don't forget!
That's a good idea... we should all celebrate Thanksgiving so we're sick of Turkey and we don't get all the Xmas-balls.
However, the major reasons for not running public transport on Christmas Day in the UK are (1) lack of demand and (2) desire to let as many public employees as possible spend Christmas with their families rather than at work.
(1) There would be enough demand to run a few routes - mainly longer distances. I could see the Birmingham - South Wales and Newcastle - Birmingham - West Country routes for instance doing well.
(2) It would be the first day I'd volunteer to work. Getting paid extra for the last day I'd want to be at home on :-D
Not only that but no main line trains, nor buses in most cities. The only ways of getting around on Christmas Day are on foot, by bike or by car. And yes, it irritates the beep out of me. People make WAY to big a deal out of Christmas - here in Leicester, the Christmas lights went up in October! Plus then there's all the sickening stuff about one's family... New York seems very tempting for Christmas, despite it being colder.
The holiday season is absolutely beautiful in the New York area. And yet public transportation operates on a reliable basis on Xmas Day and the day after Xmas is not any special holiday. I always tell people that if they go to London during Xmas, they basically lose 2 days of their vacation when it becomes very difficult to get around and so much is closed that one is almost forced to stay in one's hotel and walk to whatever open restaurans there are.
With airfares so low, you'll love being in the NY area at that time.
Just thought about anothe rbig advantage of NYC subway over LU. How many times have I bounded up the steps from the Picadilly line at Earls Court needing an Edgeware Rd. train and there is a train in the station with its doors wide open ready to depart on the track where the Edgeware Rd. train stops. I look on the side of the train for signs telling me what kind of a train it is...guess what there are none. Decisions have to be made quickly and none of the indicator signs are right there....why don't they have signs on each of the carriages to tell you what kind of a train it is and where it is destined for?
The LU trains do have destination signs on the cab ends of the trains. Recently they have been installing line decals and painting the grab bars in the line colors. I don't know how much that helps, though.
But that doesn't really help the person running up the stairs at say Earls Court, seeing a train on the tracks where the Edgeware Rd. trains are knowing whether or not the train is going to Edgeware Rd. You have to start looking for the destination signs (not the clearest of all at Earls Court, try to listen to the PA on the train if it is working clearly, ask a passenger already on the train etc. In NY, when a train arrives at Nevins Street, there is a sign clearly indicating on the side of the each car telling me if the train is going to New Lots Avenue or Flatbush Avenue (or whether it is a #2 or a #3). Just don't understand why this isn't important on LU.
If the problem in confined to Earls Court then it is insignificant. In New York there are (I may well be wrong)no destination boards. I think LU have more pressing needs for resources.
Simon
Swindon
NYC has two destination boards on each car, one facing each side. Remaining Redbirds also have them at the front of the train. And in NYC, a line like the District would have a whole bunch of different numbers or letters.
In general, the subsurface lines of LU are much more like the NY subway - the size of the trains, the style of the stations and tunnels, and the ability to re-route trains and to devise "new" lines by renaming (The Hammersmith & City Line and East London Line were called part of the Metropolitan until a few years ago). If they wanted to, LU could rename parts of the District system - the Edgeware Road-Wimbledon service would be an obvious candidate, I wonder what they could call it (the Kensington Line?). The Paris metro is NY-subway-like too, even to the very closely-spaced stations. But the London deep tubes are a different animal altogether, with a totally different feel to them than the NY subway, and little or no operational flexibility.
Yes, I've often thought the sub-surface lines need some sort of letter indicator, because saying "This is a Metropolitan/District/East London Line train" really doesn't help very much. The best I've been able to come up with is the following:
A Amersham - via Moor Park
B Watford - via Moor Park
C Chesham - Chalfont & Latimer or via Moor Park
D Uxbridge
E New Cross - Whitechapel/Shoreditch
F New Cross Gate - Whitechapel/Shoreditch
G Circle
H Hammersmith - Whitechapel/Plaistow/Barking
J Ealing - Tower Hill/Barking/Upminster
K Richmond - Tower Hill/Barking/Upminster
L Wimbledon/Putney Br/Parson's Grn - Tower Hill/Barking/Upminster
M Wimbledon/Putney Br/Parson's Grn - Hi Ken/Edgware Rd
N Olympia - Hi Ken
R Watford - Rickmansworth/Chesham/Amersham
The lack of any sort of indicator on the sides of subsurface trains is in my opinion the worst feature of the London Underground. Saying that a station is on the Metropolitan Line might not be quite as useless as a direction as saying a station was on the BMT, but it is a similar situation.
Santa won't be bringing any presents for you :)
Simon
Swinon UK
In Japan they call him Annual Gift Man and he lives on the Moon.
Do they have chimneys in Japan ?
Simon
Off topic, but the Christmas lights go up so early in Leicester because they double-up for Diwali, which is earlier than Christmas (in fact it was a few days ago). And Ramadan starts today, by the way!
Yes, that explains the lights (and the fireworks going on for weeks - apparently several hundred people have called the Council to complain about it), but the big Xmas Tree by the Clock Tower?
Not sure anyone said this. NYC is more flexible, at least in the core area of Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. If you have a problem (which is not always the fault of the system), it's easier to reroute trains around the problem and easier for passengers to find a different way to get home.
You're dead right there. Trying to get to Marylebone when the Bakerloo Line's f***ed is NOT fun! London Bus Map anyone?
Oh well... at least the buses are the same - they go at approx 6 mph - slow enough to make you annoyed, but just fast enough that you can miss one.
Having seen both, I could consider them equals. Architecturally, London is way different than NYCT, similar more to parts of PATH. The trains are faster in London between stations. And those GAPS! I can't honestly or objectively say which system is better, only that each has something unique and special to offer. If I had to choose ONE as being in better condition overall I would have to go with London. I didn't see any festering eyesores there at all, and I rode 90% of the entire system (100% of the Tube portion). The London trains, especially the 1972 MkII tube stock, are quite attractive inside.
wayne
There's a picture of a refurbished 1972 Tube Stock car in the London pages. It looks great, except for that peephole.
Given that this is like a parent comparing siblings (we shouldn't do it), I have to go with my new home town, NYC. EXCEPT for the lack of transfers between divisions, it simply puts more stops closer together more flexibly and ruggedly, 24 hours a day, cheaply (at the price of longer headways and dirt). It takes a licking and keeps on ticking.
Its not even a question! By far NYC Subway is the greastest on earth you have to be kidding me London!?!?! haha
Whenever I arrive at JFK, I take the 'A' train home to The Bronx. I notice people on the train who ride from the Rockaways to 59th Street - Columbus Circle. I have often wondered what it would be like for people who work at night to take the same trip by bus - presuming that the subway were not a 24 hour operation.
I am used to getting on a 'D' train at 1 or 2 in the morning and finding it hard to get a seat - so there are many people riding our subway during the midnight hours.
My question is: What is the difference between London and New York that makes it possible for people in London who do not have a car to go to work at midnight hours? Are the distances smaller? Are the busses able to cover long distances easily? Are there fewer people working the midnight shifts? How can people get around without The Underground running 24 hours a day?
There ARE owl bus services that serve Central London, and some of the surrounding areas. Not as comprehensive as the regular schedule, though.
wayne
The L is also standing room only, even after midnight many times, especially between 6th Ave and about Montrose Ave.
Saturday nights the 1/2 attracts rush hour crowds north of Times Square well after midnight. South of Times Square trains are empty.
I first noticed this on a ride from Flatbush to 86th on the 2 (the last express of the day, but it ran local north of 72nd due to a GO). I claimed the railfan window but the rest of the car was empty -- until Times Square, where I suddenly had a crowd pressing against me.
Keep in mind that, unlike NYC, London does run a special network of night buses routes, presumably to take the place of the Underground. Obviously, if we were to try shutting down all or part of the system overnight, we'd have to do the same.
The N to Astoria is often crowded all night.
Can you imagine going by bus from the Rockaways to Columbus Circle? Is the area of London smaller than that of New York? Would a night owl bus system work here in New York? I personally cannot see how it could. The crowds mentioned in the previous posts seem to indicate that a night owl bus system would not work in New York.
Again, what is the differnce between the two cities that - in my opinion - would make it impossible to have the night time activity that we have here in New York without a 24-7 subway system?
Can you imagine going by bus from the Rockaways to Columbus Circle? Is the area of London smaller than that of New York?
My impression (I've lived and worked in NY; I've lived near and worked in London) is that London is actually slightly more spread out and less densly populated than NY; although nothing like as spread out as most other US cities.
Looking at your specific example on online maps, I make Rockaway to Columbus Circle about 11 miles straight line. From say Trafalgar Square in London, Uxbridge is about 15 miles straight line.
Again, what is the differnce between the two cities that - in my opinion - would make it impossible to have the night time activity that we have here in New York without a 24-7 subway system?
I suspect there isn't a simple, single answer.
My very limited usage of the London Night Bus network suggests that it is mostly used by returning party-goers etc rather than late shift workers. It may be that London is less of a 24-hour social city.
Normal tube and bus services in London run late enough for evening workers (office cleaners etc) to use them. And I suspect most genuinely 24x7 operations probably have an overnight shift that starts before tube shutdown and ends after startup. Not sure how tube workers get to and from work though.
To ChrisW: Thank you for your thoughtful answer. It is what I was looking for. You gave me a better feeling for the differences between the two cities. It certainly crimps one's style not to be able to go to or from any place in the city when you want to. I appreciate our 24-7 subway.
Are there any other cities that have 24-7 subway service? The only one I can think of in the U.S. is Chicago (not all lines at night).
It may be that London is less of a 24-hour social city.
Don't forget the repressively backward British licensing laws. Pubs shut at 11, 10:30 on Sundays, those who employ bouncers and apply to a Magistrate for permission can stay open til 2 or 3.
Plus shops have an irritating habit of closing at 5:30 (whereas in Italy, they'll stay open til at least 8). Then there's the difficulty in getting anyone to serve you food after 10...
Then there's the difficulty in getting anyone to serve you food after 10...
10:00? Wow, that is odd. Even in the New York suburbs on Long Island, you can get food here long after that. In fact, maybe easier than in New York itself, you could always go to a 24 hour diner - which there is no shotrage of here on Long Island.
Then there's the difficulty in getting anyone to serve you food after 10...
10:00? Wow, that is odd. Even in the New York suburbs on Long Island, you can get food here long after that. In fact, maybe easier than in New York itself, you could always go to a 24 hour diner - which there is no shotrage of here on Long Island.
You ought to see what it's like in Phoenix. On our trip there last August, we were looking around the center of Scottsdale, probably the most "happening" suburb, for a place to eat just after 9pm on a Saturday evening, and most everything was shut.
I found the same thing in Delft, a university town in Holland - got there one evening about 9 p.m. because I had a meeting at the university the next day, and could not get anything to eat anywhere (not even at the hotel I was staying at). Even the bars closed about ten - in a student town!! Actually James was being a little pessimistic about the UK - in Leicester, where he is now student, I bet he could get a meal well after 10, especially if he likes Indian food.
in Leicester, where he is now student, I bet he could get a meal well after 10, especially if he likes Indian food.
Or dodgy Queens Road take-aways :-D so tempting...
Oh and I love Indian food - pity the Belgrave Road's the other side of the City... hey, I suppose I could look around Highfields and Westcotes...
Most of the Diners here on Long Island serve 24 hours a day; some are open major holidays (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter) too.
wayne
Excuse me sir, but the A train doesn't go to the Bronx=====or has there been a change.
His post infers that he changes for the "D" at some point.
wayne
Sorry about that. I change at either Columbus Circle or 125th Street for the 'D'.
But no one is answering my main question. What is the difference between the two cities that would make it impossible to have no subway at night in New York and yet makes it possible to have no Underground in London at night?
Around 0430am yeaterday morning while heading to work @ Gun Hill Depot when i past by the Westcheaster Yard i saw R33 10 cars 92xx with #4 sign up & it been there over 3 days now. Why the hell R33 doing in Westcheaster Yard?
DNJ
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Now, now.. r33's still have the right to be around!
..after all, no one's sent them to damnation...
...(atleast NOT yet!).
Are you sure it wasn't the worktrain/dolly consists?
I saw them both on the IRT 2 and 6 lines, this week.
give em hell redbirds !!
1. They might be converted for work trains.
2. They might have been stored there for this weekend GO. Split service on the 4 btwn Manhattan and Bklyn. Bklyn 4s terminating at 125-Lex and turning at 3Av-138St. I believe there was a shuttle train from Woodlawn to 125St.
I'd go with number 1.
Peace,
ANDEE
I would guess so, too!
Eesh.. Redbirds in Westchester Yard..
...nuthin' to have a cow about.
Hey, SubBus...what are you doing here posting at SubTalk? Who let you back in this establishment?!
Funny here you are showing up and so does heypaul....hmmmm...is there a connection?
With the addition of 70 R-142As to the Jerome fleet, the #4 line is now 38 cars over quota. Since space at Jerome Yard and Concourse yard is tight due to the temporary pause in the reefing program, cars may show up in strange places.
cars may show up in strange places.
I got room for one in my backyard if ye wanna
bring it over for me to babysit... :)
Oh. I thought the strange observation was that you saw SUBWAYSURF sleeping walking through Westchester Yard in nothing but his BVD's. :)
The Daily News has a story today on Bloomberg saying no West Side stadium for the Yankees, but OK to one for the Jets because the Jets only play at home eight times a year (plus pre-season) to the Yanks' 80 or so home dates.
The downplayed factor (it shows up well down in the story) is a baseball facility wouldn't adapt to serving as an Olympic venue as well as a football stadium would, but that controversy should be settled in a couple of hours, when the USIOC makes its pick between New York and San Francisco for the U.S. nominee for the 2012 Olympics.
If Frisco wins, it's hard to see where the the momentum for a new Jets stadium would come from, and in turn (to get this at least a little on message) it's hard to see where the urgency would be anymore to start developing a plan for extending the No. 7 train over to the Javits Center and the stadium site. If New York was to get the nomination and then get selected by the IOC, the pols would have to build the thing to avoid major personal embarrassment a decade from now from having an Olympic stadium with no transit access.
I think I aw that article also. It also said that someone asked what if construction starts for this stadium. The money and materials, ect are committed and the IOC decides the games are held in SanFrancisco? The answer was something like:
"it's guaranteed!."
Like they say in the movies:
"Be afraid. Be very afraid"
(If Frisco wins, it's hard to see where the the momentum for a new Jets stadium would come from, and in turn (to get this at least
a little on message) it's hard to see where the urgency would be anymore to start developing a plan for extending the No. 7 train
over to the Javits Center and the stadium site.)
NYC Planning has wanted to rezone the far west side for offices, residences, and other such space for 20 years, before the Olympic angle was even thought of. It's the best place to add jobs and tax revenues to support our services. And we're better off without the stadium -- the space over the Javits expansion could be filled by taxpaying hotels. In fact, the whole stadium thing would be a loss to the MTA, which could sell the development rights over the yards (a la Grand Central) rather than just having them used up.
(If New York was to get the nomination and then get selected by the IOC, the pols would have to build the thing to avoid major personal embarrassment a decade from now from having an Olympic stadium
with no transit access.)
I'd be happier if they got NJ to build a branch off the NE corridor line to the Meadowlands and put the Olympic Stadium there to replace Giants Stadium. Does the region really need TWO of those types of facilities? I wouldn't mind a baseball stadium on the West Side, as long as the Mets AND Yankees shared it. It's like every airline demanding their own publicly subsidized airport.
Well, now that the USOC has picked New York as the 2012 nominee, the Olympic Committee is pretty much locked into a West Side stadium for the Olympics and the Jets. Of course, all this means for now is there will be three more years of planning studies before the IOC makes its decision in 2005.
From a transit standpoint, though, they will have to come out with a more specific proposal for the Flushing Line extension to the site between now and 2005, and given the construction timetables in New York, whatever proposal is decided -- either a route straight across 41st to the Javits Center or a zig-zag via Penn Station -- they will have to be ready to let the contracts and start boring tunnels pretty quickly after the final selection proesses, if they're to finish building the one-mile extension in seven years.
NYC hasn't gotten the games yet. NYC is now the site for the US bid for the games in 2012. We have to wait 3 more years before the IOC decides where the games are to be.
That's what I said:
Of course, all this means for now is there will be three more years of planning studies before the IOC makes its decision in 2005.
I know.
It is that some people (not you) will be thinking we WILL have the games in 2012.
What other world cities are on the board besides New York? We are one step closer though, at least.
A lot of tough competition. I think London, Rome and Moscow are confirmed to also be vying for the award.
All cities that have already held the Olympics.
I hear also Toronto, Rio and Cape Town, which have never held the Olympics (Toronto lost to Beijing for 2008).
I have a question about something you railfans might want to help me out with
I wanna know when you are underground going underwater is their something on the tracks that tells you you are underwater
No.
Robert
You can feel it generally...the air shaft from the ventilation tower is generally right on the edge of land so when you feel your ears pop (which is because the train is pushing the air acting like a plunger and the airshaft acts as a escape route for the pushed air so your ears pop) that's generally a sign that you're leaving land/re-entering land.
Once upon a time... Before there were M1s on the LIRR
There were older types of coaches
whose commodes dumped directly onto the tracks!
There was a notice in the wash room:
Do not flush in stations.
It also said: do not use in tunnels.
Well, this lady just *had* to go, and the train *wasn't* in the tunnel (yet)
(can you see where this is going?)
She let go of some pretty urgen diahrrea just as the train entered the tunnel: and the stuff went up instead of down.
Like I said: It wasn't pretty!
Elias
Actually when I'm on the A/C Lines going to Manhattan, in the tunnels there are these orange Lights and I guess a doorway at each end of the tunnel that I think tells when you have entered underwater or when you are re-entering land.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
In NYC subway, at the last station before an underwater tunnel, a signal has 2 lunar (white) lights. If they're white, it's ok to continue. If they're red, the train operator has to call Command Center on the wayside phone (if the radio isn't working) to find out what's going on.
Those are called Cat's eye signals I think.
The name is Train order signals and they are also at Marcy Avenue Manhattan Bound and at other key junction udnerground such as the Rogers Jct (where the 2 turns off)
Well cats eye is nickname, I've heard it used from a few people.
No, there no demarcation.
Remember, for subway tunnels, you are pretty much always underground. The point at which you cross underneath the surface water boundary is largely irrelevant.
However, you may be able to dicern a difference in tunnel construction. For example, in NYC, a change from cut-and-cover to deep bore tends to mean that you are taking a dive deeper underground.
Matt
Simple. Whereever you see 1 or 2 cops sitting at the end of the platform, 24-7-365...
why do you want to know?
i look fdor the red pipes.
til next time
Refuse to get off a Redbird and you'll be underwater soon enough.
Ha!
No but if you stand at the railfan window, you could feel the air from the outside coming in from the 1st car, especially on redbirds.
in a rush to go see silver line construction due to a class assignment this morning
froze my ass off in south boston cuz i forgot my scarf
got home, discovered that in a rush i'd left my keys in the apt
realize that having no roommates has its downsides
discover that my landlord is in florida
discover that guy that lives in the same triple-decker is away for the weekend
discover that it's too cold to pry things open
go to the office to get screwdriver
discover that i have no keys to my office, and my screwdriver is in there
am at the computer cluster posting to nycsubway.org
When in doubt, always post to subway.org...
Good luck putting your day back together.
Today is the first day of SEPTA's Rail Power Project. How are things progressing so far? Has anyone taken a ride yet? My first ride will not be until tomorrow.
I'd say it is electrifying.
:0)
what is a SEPTA Rail Power Project?
It's "THE" SEPTA Rail Power Project. Catenary replacement between Suburban Station and 30th Street.
Lucky them, it doesn't affect me too much. If I NEED the R3, I'll use it, but I have many other options for getting downtown.
I am looking for information about William Coke, the subway motorman who played the train motorman in the original French Connection. I figured someone here might know. Any help would be appreciated.
Paul, I can't get the link to come up right now, but this link should have some information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris... Thanks for the link, but I think that it is just a file that they set up for his name, but it has nothing in it. I'm doing some research for a friend, who would like to get in touch with the man.
OK... it timed out when I tried to bring it up so I didn't know what it had. Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey paul - welcome back!!!
Am I glad you had a change of heart about Subtalk and the fine people who post here.
The Motorman passed away 10-15 years ago. The Conductor retired a few years back.
-Mark
Mark... Thanks for the info.
I saw a post of yours at the Brooklyn Board about Philips Candy opening on Staten Island. Have they opened?
>>The Motorman passed away 10-15 years ago<<
I was told he died of a heart attack, just like acted on the French Connection. Eerie similarity there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill... Did he die while he was still on the job?
It has me wondering whether many transit workers have died of natural causes while operating a train?? I'm also curious if the dead man's control ever failed in its design, such as a train operator falling onto the controller?
>>Bill... Did he die while he was still on the job?<<
Not exactly sure if it was on the job or not. He may have been retired when he passed, which is my guess.
Bill "Newkirk"
That did actually happen once some time back in the 1970's or 80's (when the R-46 still had the P-wire system); a T/O suffered a fatal heart attack while relaying a train past the 179th Street station, and fell over on the controller, thereby de-activating the deadman feature. The train ended up hitting the wall - there's a picture of the car involved somewhere on the site (I thing in the "wreaked/scrapped" section). Interestingly enough, someone here (Train Dude?) mentioned that they were able to get a P-wire loop in the other seven cars of the consist, and they left under their own power.
BTW, welcome back.
subfan
subfan... Thanks for the info and for the greeting...
Paul, I'm glad to see you posting again. Sorry, that I can't help you with any info -- this is not my area of expertise. Now, if you were asking about the Franklin Shuttle...
Hope all is well. I'll speak to you later.
Doug
No problem - but what on earth are you doing up at such an ungodly hour on a Sunday morning?! I, at least, have a couple of good excuses; first, where I am, it's seven hours later than the east coast of the US, and second, the workweek here is Sunday through Thrursday - when I was in the States, though, you'd never see me up before eight at the earliest on a Sunday.
Cheers,
subfan
where I am, it's seven hours later than the east coast of the US, and second, the workweek here is Sunday through Thrursday
You're in the Middle East?
That was a Friday night at about 10 PM. I had been working the PM tour @ Jamaice and responded. I didn't leave until somewhere around 9 AM Saturday. Actually, we were able to get P-Wire on the rear 6 cars. They were pulled out by diesel but once on the 3rd rail, they made the trip to Jamaica Yard under their own power.
Cars 1054 and 941 were left behind. The cab of 1054 was pushed back to the first door opening as you can see from some of the pix we took when we got the cars back to Jamaica. I don't think it was ever determined whether it was a fatal heart attack or stroke that caused the tragedy. You can imagine why.
Incidently, aside from the motorman and the conductor, there were 3 sleeping skels in the 3rd car. Neither they nor the conductor was hurt.
Welcome BACK, buddy ... I'm not CERTAIN, but I believe the Jerome Avenue wreck with 62's might have also been a similar incident but I'm not sure if the motorperson died or passed out ...
If you are talking about the most recent one, that was a low speed collision where there were only minor injuries. In fact, because of the link-bars and the grade of the track, the lead motor suffered little damage while the middle car took the brunt of the hit.
If you are speaking of the 14th Street incident, the motorman, left the scene under his own power. Following the advice of John Blutarski ("Animal House") he immediately began to drink heavily in a nearby park.
It was the one on the Jerome. I remember reading something here about the guy in the box possibly having had a medical situation and that's why it bumped the train ahead but then you know how "facts" can be here. The Union Square wreck was a moron completely out of control who deserved what he got and then some more that he didn't. But didn't know what the outcome of the Jerome "bump" was which is why I wondered.
welcome back
Is this THE heypaul? Hopefully this is NOT some trick by Train Dude...or Avid...or SUBWAYSURF...
No trick by me, Doug. I'm as thrilled as everyone else to have paul back with us. After those harsh words he had for us on the other side of the tracks, I thought we'd never see him here again. Nice to know we're all forgiven.
instead of being inside the 62 transverse cab motormans cab with my video camera...( just for a good discussion folks )....lol
WHAT IF INSTEAD ...only my videocamera was inside the motormans cab..
I would set it up quickly and quickly remove it at the end of the line !! ..................??
.. A follow up comment
I would not do this ( unless i could get a permit ),... today !!
I did have the thought of this onb my last #4 trip back to atlantic
avenue ...........
You would have to enter the cab to install and retrieve your camera.
And for you (or any media members) to get a permit to enter a cab and film would be a paramount task.
Considering that your films are primarily for personal use, the chances of you recieving a permit are extremely remote.
>>> Considering that your films are primarily for personal use <<<
They are not for personal use. Salaam offers them for sale to the general public (and they are good). That opens another can of worms about taping anywhere on TA property without a permit.
Tom
Under the rules I cited in a previous post, there is a section banning the use of system property for commercial enterprise without permission. There is also a section about photography for non-personal use. Salaam was and would be in violation of both of thes sections as well. The penalty could be as much as 10 days in jail for each offense.
then mark fienman would also be sent to prison ....eh train dude?
Salaam, the rules are the rules are the rules. It's not a joke. You broke them. You could have gone to jail. You could have gotten some innocent dupe fired. Don't you care about doing the right thing, ever?
of cource i did not want anyuone to be fired!
dude please !! the complaints about the hot cars speed restricted
govonors timers set so you get stopped at almost every signal,
and you should have heard this guy and what hell he was going thru !
and as well he was venting on me big time !!
i was taking it in on my way back to the final station atlantic av.
( actually i was done shooting for the day / night )
i am really getting sick from all of the attacks on me on this !!
>>>Salaam offers them for sale to the general public ...<<
I cannot help but wonder if he pays taxes on the income derived from the sale of such videos. They aren't that good either, Marks are better.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought you had more chances for personal, private use. If you use it for commercial use, you are getting rich without any credit to MTA for your pictures. Just like in the FBI warnings you see at the beginning of movies on videotapes. "FOR PRIVATE HOME VIEWING ONLY" because the company is not getting any credit for the people who have watched if you view it publicly. It is stealing, indirectly.
Maybe if you sprayed it with some invisible paint!!
Salaam, give it a rest! The railfan "window" era is over. And CTA mo lomger has a 'railfan seat at the ftont either. Such is life.
Remember that the flanged steel wheels on steel rails are still magic.
Salaam, any chances of that went with 9/11. Even though there may not be any real security issues involved with photographing from the cab even you can see that every security rule will be enforced to the fullest (except for tightening up the borders). Now don't blame the the NYCT or any other transit property for your disappointment. Instead blame your asshole fundimentalist muslim buddies for the situation.
HAHA! YES! Well put!
again i have no "" buddies "" .....not well put !! at all !!
>>>again i have no "" buddies "" ...<<
For once, you have something right.
Peace,
ANDEE
why not for once you say something that makes sense ?
LOOK in the mirror,,,buddy
Peace,
ANDEE
..........ladies first ..........
And here I thought this board was above religious bigotry. We're here by a common interest in the NYC Subway.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
>>> I thought this board was above religious bigotry <<<
Welcome to the real world. Unfortunately, some here believe it is open season on Islam.
Tom
... and most of them are about to be Re-elected ...
>>> and most of them are about to be Re-elected <<<
By "here" I was referring to Sub Talk. :-(
Tom
>>And here I thought this board was above religious bigotry. We're here by a common interest in the NYC Subway.<<
You're right Jim. However, it's called flaming. It occurs once in a while, full moon or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
TRAIN DUDE! TRAIN DUDE! TRAIN DUDE!!!
AND Sallam make sure you're clean shaven next time!!! We now have GOs to report everything suspicious...they made us watch a useless and moronic videotape...even the Train Dude had to endure it! Guy with a camera or a bag, bad. Guy with a camera or a bag AND a beard, very bad. Got a security problem??? Don't call Property protection, call ME!!! TD's thinking about this all and starting to laugh.
>>> Guy with a camera or a bag AND a beard, very bad. <<<
Did they show you one with a guy carrying a round object with a sputtering fuse, or has that image gone out of date? :-)
Tom
No that is the silent training film warning about those damn anarcho-syndicalists.
I thought they would show the nazi sabateur video.
>>> I thought they would show the nazi sabateur video. <<<
That would be the one which warns to be suspicious of anyone with any device that could be used for two way wireless communications. :-)
Tom
So, how many people here own cellular phones? :)
-Robert King
i do not have any beard & or hair on my head at all !!
ask those who met me on the last D type trip !!
We know, we've seen your *wanted* poster.
Peace,
ANDEE
oh yea ! the "WANTED FOR MURDER MR.PIG" ...!!
the truth about eating the HOG flesh ...
the kosher and halal is a much better diet !!....lol !!
havent ate any PIG since 1970 !!.........do not miss it !
i do not have any buddies ! ( the type you stated )
sorry to dissapoint you on that !!
mark fienman told me his video railfan career is over too !..??
Salaam, I really do not want to get into this on Subtalk. Let it suffice to say that (if not buddies) you are affilliated with the "Nation of Islam". Louis Fahrakhan has stated more than once that it's Allah's will that America be destroyed (or words to that affect).In any event, we're straying from the original topic.
Now the trend is for more and more rail properties to go to transverse cabs. With this in mind, and since you do sell your videos for profit, why don't you just incorporate, and seek permits to shoot videos as an employee of the corporation. I'm not sure but the fees might not be as steep as you might imagine. In any event, it'll be cheaper that the legal fees if you continue to break the law.
anyones religion sexual orientation political spiritual beliefs
........are off topic on this forum ....( & i am not with farrakahn )
so there !! ....daves borad is for as mr david pirmann states:...
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only"
*********************************************
ok i may have broke some law..maybe so. i was even mentally prepared
to have to pay the price for it ...etc....so what ??
at least i was a man about it and not some weak ass wimp !!!
i dont make any profit at all most of my videos were given away at all
of my expense to many persons and schools and non profit organizations
family some friends you name it have found my videos something great to relax to and enjoy and it has a healing effect on many deserving persons that i send my videos to heal many and soothe them as well
i also shoot marching drum sections mix live audio recordings for jazz and other experemental music for recording purposes & have done that all of my life ( before the digital still / 8 mm video /& vhs )!
i dont just shoot railfan vidoes only !! i have shot cross country driving videos nature videos scenic videos and stills pan shots etc.
i am a audio mixer recorder of many types of music own my own remote
recording studio.( just some of the things i give to the world )!!
i dont disagree with all of your post,.. shooting railfan videos is
somewhat a new field as i am the master of many things i do as a artist and have been told this by many !!..
hell last week i shot a ""funky live party" & made this look like a
big rap video !! & ( you ought to see a video of my marching drum section )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuiralumnidrumasociation/
check out my drum sections i work with as thier photographer video
for them as well
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jmadadrums/
train dude i almost have no time for my religion that i do not discuss with anyone else as i will never ask you about yours !
oh yea !! anyones religion is more of what they do !
& what do you leave behind when you pass away !!
think about it folks !
Well to keep on topic, forgetting how some may have been gotten, etc - let's drop the craziness everyone...
All in all, you do take some great photos.
thankz that is my goal to tak the finest videos / amd still pictures that i can ...
Ameng!
you can e mail me at my e mail ( i am not with farrakhan ) sorry !!
we can discuss the first three lines of your off topic lines there !!
but not on subtalk please !!
not on mr david pirmanns board please !! ( thank you ) ..
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
e mail me there & then we can talk !
mark fienman told me his video railfan career is over too !..??
Mark Feinman said no such thing. Don't you put words in my mouth.
--Mark
you did not say on the last steeple cab D type trip you have cut back on shooting of videos since 911 ??
also you told me th lirr would not let you shoot video on thier trains ....
"mark fienman told me his video railfan career is over too !..??"
Interesting.
ok ...go to the # 7 train with a vidocamera ...maybe they will leave you alone ?
...like they did back in 2000 ?? .....!! ..i was left completely alone back then !! ( 2000 world series )...
i have recieved e mail form those who have tried to shoot on that line and was stopped ASAP!!
& was told they cannot shoot a videocamera on the #7 train ..... !!..( after 911 ) ..
this is not only about ..mark fienman...is about all of us ...
very unfortunate ......i do wish this was not happening .......
so i went on a still picture taking spree and got hasseled too...
Not true. See this post.
--Mark
I never said to you that "my video career is over". My career is not videography.
The one and only time I tried to take video of the LIRR was at Jamaica in 1997. I haven't gone back on the LIRR since, not because I was shooed away, but because my interest has been focused on subways in general. LIRR trains generally run less often that subway trains do, and I don't want to wait for such long intervals to get video runbys.
As for cutting back on video, I cut back on "your type of video" i.e. shots from the front, because of, aside from common sense about heightened security right now, the ruckus you caused during your trip here. While before I may have gotten a friendly toot, smile and a wave from a T/O, your "entitlement to the cab" attitude that you have been crying foul about for the past month has made such an activity look suspicious. So for that, thank you very much.
--Mark
you got me wrong on ""your type of video"....whatever that is
supposed to mean...?..........!!
what i was saying sir is that i have recieved e mails from persons
who try to shoot " ANY KIND OF VIDEO " ....etc... & especially on
the # 7 train !!...hope this clears this up !!
i am going to ignore the rest of you post ...........
however i would like to see someone shoot the # 7 these days !!
good luck if they leave you alone & I HOPE THE DO JUST THAT !!
( that is my original & real point )..ok folks ?? ....thank you !
& not some other crap some on this board think about me which says
more of THEMSELVES than any thing else !!
good luck with your tr67 and anything you shoot in the future !!
sincerely , salaamallah
"your type of video" = video shot from the railfan window.
Hope that is clear.
--Mark
i saw a digital still of you doing that too on a redbird ..........
hope it came out well !!
i saw a digital still of you doing that too on a redbird ..........
hope it came out well !!
Hope that is clear, also sincerely good luck on your next shoot !
salaamallah ....just turned 51 ! yesterday ....
you said
"As for cutting back on video, I cut back on "your type of video"
but i say there is no "my or your type of video"
however there is the "peoples video" which is for all who are
interested in this to enjoy!
i do not do "your type of video" or "my type of video" just
" the peoples type of video " for the purposes of healing and
soothing and comforting the viewer who sees this kind of thing
like any other photogrer / videophotographer etc..
i try to take full advantage of any oppertunity (s) of each & every
situation i encounter whenever & whereever i may be weither it is
photographing nature shots scenic photography or video , for example
shooting from the dashboard of my 1982 caprice station wagon cross
country ( yes on video ) it was a challenge trying to make the orange
empire museum look good on video but somehow i will manage !!
but there is no "your type of video" or "your type of photo" ..
...etc.. this robs the person doing his / her artwork as we who do
this do so from our abilities talent prespectives and equipment we
can afford ! if it all comes together right the resuls is what did
fortunately did happen for me when i shot the # 7 train on my digital
still camera ! ( especially since they dont allow videos anymore )
photography / videos works (s) is not the only artworks is do.
audio mixing and recording ( recording engineer ) is another one !
so much for ""your type of video" bing some smart ass way of getting
me told and setting me straight!--- i do not think so !!
you can see just a thumnails sketch of my attempts at some of this!
thank you ............keep on shooting with yor sony tr67 ...
Salaam .. you read too much into things. You clearly have a preference for cab video. That is, as I said, "your type of video".
--Mark
seemed more like a nasty swipe at me ........i would nevr do that to you or anyone else ...
i have seen , & heard other cab videos like the pentrex videos and many others ...
thank you
Look Salaam, you had your big chance and you blew it!!!! Think long and hard about that day you got caught in a tranverse cab on the #4 line. It should be obvious to you, and everyone on this board, as to why you got caught. You were so close, but you made one mistake.
So my advice to you is this:
Stay away from NYC T/O's for a long time. You've caused enough trouble already. It's a shame stalker laws don't apply to substalkers like you.
Luch,
You are preaching to the choir.
Salaam has been repeatedly told the rules and what he did was wrong.
Nowever, he refuses to either acknowledge or admit he did anything that was wrong. It's pretty obvious. Read any of his responses to anyone who posted that what he did was wrong.
The rules he ignored and violated were in place long before his latest visit. Everybody who works in RTO has a copy of these rules. Even NYCT managers who don't work in RTO are aware of them. The rules are there for a good reason - safety. The cab of a subway train is no place for someone who is not an operating person. Period, paragraph.
That being said, when Salaam recognises that what he did was wrong, every Redbird that was reefed will reappear in the condition it was first delivered at every IRT yard, and the Myrtle and Fifth Avenue Elevateds will also reappear with BU's in full service. The Second Avenue Elevated will also reappear, complete with steam engines. :)
i said i was sorry this happened twice !! also i did this back in october 2000 on the #6.....
really getting tired of all of the attacks from some of the wimps ...
ugh !
Look, this was NOT directed at you, so stay out of it. It was a reply to LuchAAA, not Salaamallah.
ok my apology please ( thank you )
Apology accepted.
omg the REPUBLICANS have won everything !!
oh no !!
Life will go on. We survived Ronnie, we survived Daddy Bush. We even survived Nixon. It ain't the end of the world.
shit! ...........all hell is going to break loose !!
there goes the king & county !!
Wrong, Salaam, There goes the republican form of government in America. Hail to King George II.
a new boston tea party is in order !!
'Assemble the box in three lines. Charge your Enfield muskets, affix bayonets, sight in the Colonials and first line fire one volley upon orders.'
yea !!lets all head back to nyc with our cameras still & video ..
it b' like dat' party 4 our RIGHT to do railfan photography !
dont shoot until you see THE WHITES OF THIER EYES !!!
lol !!
Chill, John.
All is not lost. Learn from history, it teaches us that whenever the party the President is from increases or takes control of Congress in the mid-term elections, that President is defeated in the next election. It's happened before. It will happen again.
Learn from history, it teaches us that whenever the party the President is from increases or takes control of Congress in the mid-term elections, that President is defeated in the next election.
Not true. The last two Presidents who took control or had an increase at the mid-term elections were both named Roosevelt - TR in 1902 and FDR in 1934. Both won re-election.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You are right, but the two cases may not fit.
TR was not not elected, but suceeeded to the Presidency when McKinley was assassinated. The "rule" seems to apply to elected Presidents only.
FDR was the special case. Elected in 1930, he took office at the peak of the Depression and began the economic rescue. He suceeded a very unpopular Republican President (Strangely, Hoover was more successful after he left the Presidency, much like Jimmy Carter.)
1902 was Teddy Roosevelt's first election, so it doesn't fit your model.
Actually, 1904... but you're right, TR was there by succession in 1902, not election. But his party had been in control of the Presidency for a number of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello, I'm new and I'm really into the NYC Subway Im from NJ and got to NYC all the time. I was in the Transit Museam today and bought a nice piece of history. The Sign for the Car Number 7786. I have found out some infor about it but does anyone know where this would go and if it was a red bird. Thanks please email me at
bpawelko@comcast.net
Thanks
It would go on the side of the Car.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
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7786 was an R-26, and was more than likely painted red during its last years of service.
It was a 50' subway car, and may have been one of those that was dumped into the ocean.
Last summer I bought the car number sign for an R-26 also. I forget which car number. It's at home. But yeah, those things are cool and I'm glad I bought one. I really hope the Transit Musuem starts selling OTHER peices of REDBIRDS real SOON! HINT! HINT! HINT! I want a strap, and seat, a destination rollsign, and anything else I can can buy. I'm sure they have hundreds of extras laying around that they pulled out of Reefbirds so what in the heck is the freakin HOLDUP????? SELL ME STUFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!
--Brian
P.S. Sorry, I'm a bit wound up :)
They should sell more of all of that kind of stuff at the museum. I remember someone here saying that a lot of the stuff just goes in the dumpster (like the rollsigns). I'm sure many people would be willing to buy stuff like rollsigns (and not just railfans - tourists also, especially if they do it where there are tourists - like the GC gift shop). The money could be used towards the transit museum. It's better than just throwing it in the dumpster, I feel. I have bought quite a few things at the Transit Museum Auction when they used to have it. It was fairly cheap (at least the tag sale stuff part was cheap - I didn't bother with the auction stuff) I bought some station signs for between $8 and $25, and there was so much of it, that it was a hard decision on what NOT to buy.
I have an original column sign from the lower level 42 Street that was only $8, a large E to World Trade Center center track sign for $25.00, a side rollsign from the R46's for $15, etc, etc. There was so much stuff. The entire mezzanine level of the Court St Transit Museum and the platform level also was literally FILLED with stuff. I always thought they sell the stuff year round instead of once every two years having a tag sale/auction. Now they don't even do that anymore - I wonder why.
Yes, this car is/was a redbird, an R26 to be exact and the car# would go on the side of the train car in the front and back of the car since there were 2 # pieces per train car on each side.
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Why does the late night shuttle bus have a stop at Cortlandt Street?
Why not? The only reason why there isn't a stop at Cortlandt Street is because there is nowhere for passengers to exit, unless they want to take a death defying leap. Now if you want to talk about errors, check out the advisory for Nov 9 to 11 on the 1 (Uptown trains skip...). It says at the bottom for service FROM these stations take a downtown train to 59st and take an uptown from there, no longer! Now we can take a downtown train to 72st and catch the uptown! Wahoo!
I thought, as a matter of policy, that shuttle buses didn't serve stations that didn't exist. Otherwise, why wasn't there a 1 shuttle bus at all times before 9/15?
Yes, I saw the other error. It's actually a double error -- what's wrong with 66th?
The station "exists," at least for the purposes of the map. It is just closed. Before 9/15, there was no shuttle bus for the closed 1 stops. It was an operations decision of the MTA. For part of the time, it would have been nearly impossible to run buses from South Ferry to Chambers Street. Since West Street and Church Street opened, it would be possible, but it would clog the streets of Lower Manhattan with even more buses and would reduce the TA's already sparse bus reserves.
It seems that major station/connection closings get shuttle buses or shuttle trains on a case by case basis so as "best to serve the passengers and meet operational requirements." That has been the TA's argument when confronted with complaints about the closing of the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and cutting off three of the lines to Stillwell.
GO's are a little different, in that they tend to be at night and on weekends (or middays, in the case of the Williamsburg Bridge). There usually aren't as many options, nor are there as many passengers affected or street traffic with which the buses would have to contend.
Very true, but I understand the irony of the Service Notice also. It's set up like:
If you use the Rector St station, your shuttle bus will stop here, or if you use the South Ferry station, your bus will stop here or if you use the Cortlandt Street Station, your bus.........wait a minute, no one uses the Cortlandt Street station.
In reading an old NY ERA Bulletin from 1964, I noticed a small list of R-1/9 cars that had exchanged numbers. Those listed were...
100 & 190
115 & 196
118 & 192
119 & 191
139 & 185
Two R-16's exchanged numbers as well. They were...
6400 & 6418
This number switching was part of another thread some weeks ago and I thought there might be some interest in this info.
I'm not sure whether the the official NYCT policy is to permit number swapping. In the past 20 years or so, I have not seen it happen. In fact when on R-32 needed to be switched from a compressor car to a converter car (odd to even) to make up a marriage, they didn't give it the number of the car that it replaced. Instead, they went to an entirely new number outside of the R-32 sequence (3348).
In reading some of these old ERA Bulletins, I get the impression that they really went wild in switching numbers around in the late 1950's and early 1960's. The Q cars (three car sets of rebuilt gate cars) were the victims of a lot of number trading.
Of course I (almost) put my foot in my mouth and no one called me to task for it. Thre numbers were not switched but we did change over 1,000 numbers on the R-44 & R-46 fleets.
Of course I (almost) put my foot in my mouth
No you didn't. That was a complete renumbering of every car in the whole series. I'm glad they did, that's how I got my R-46 plate with #902 on it.
Wasn't there another R-32 which underwent a similar changeover and was given its wrecked mate's number? IIRC it was 3668 which became 3669 or vice versa. I may have the wrong car number.
The BMT Standards were also victim to number switching. A black and white picture I saw of Standards, on the West End about to enter the tunnel for 36th St., show a 2000-2499 series car wearing #2576.
We all know the 2500 series cars had the box air vents on the roofs. Also I've been told deck roof cars and low numbered cars had numbers swapped over the years.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just got back from Toronto on Thursday. Had a great time, as usual, but I noticed that during the mid-day hours, the streetcar lines, especially the Carlton line, ran much less often than in the past. I haven't been up there since 1995, did they cut service since then? Or was it just my imagination?
Oh yes, service has been cut. Almost entirely due to nonfunding - I've been hearing statistics that surface service is half what it used to be a decade ago while the cost of fares has approximately doubled.
Let's consider 1995 and 2002 in terms of streetcar service. In 1995 there were the CLRVs, the ALRVs and 17 PCCs. The 17 PCCs were retired at the end of the first full week of 1995. Since then, the Spadina line and the new Harbourfront line have opened - while the streetcar fleet shrank by 17 cars. This alone should hint at the size of the surface service cuts that have taken place since the transportation funding was decimated.
The Harbourfront line (509) only requires a small handful of streetcars to operate, but Spadina needs about 20 at least. All of these streetcars were made availible from a smaller total fleet that had surplus cars due to service cuts made on the other lines, including Carlton, before the two new lines opened up. Even if funding is restored, and there is no indication it will be, streetcar service can't be increased too much on all of the lines because there just aren't many availible in the surplus pool - smaller streetcar fleet (no PCCs) and more territory to cover (two additional lines).
-Robert King
I'm sorry to hear all that. Even so, overall service still seems better than places like Philadelphia, Boston, or San Francisco. Does that mean that service in Toronto was "too good" years ago, or service everywhere else is just horrible?
I wouldn't say that the service was 'too good' or that it's bad now, but you have to remember that the service being provided now is 82% paid for by fares without much of an operating subsidy at all. Personally, given the cost of fares and the extend of the service that is being run these days, I'd say the present service is very good.
Back then, when there were large operating subsidies paid for by the Government of Ontario and the City of Toronto, more service could be run and it was - indicating that the money being put into the TTC was coming out as better service than there is now, now that hardly any money is going in. Again, I'd say the service was good back then, given the amount of money the TTC had to work with.
-Robert King
I wanted to place one word in italics look what I ended up doing...
This is how that post should have appeared:
---
I wouldn't say that the service was 'too good' or that it's bad now, but you have to remember that the service being provided now is 82% paid for by fares without much of an operating subsidy at all. Personally, given the cost of fares and the extend of the service that is being run these days, I'd say the present service is very good.
Back then, when there were large operating subsidies paid for by the Government of Ontario and the City of Toronto, more service could be run and it was - indicating that the money being put into the TTC was coming out as better service than there is now, now that hardly any money is going in. Again, I'd say the service was good back then, given the amount of money the TTC had to work with.
-Robert King
I noticed that as well when I was in Toronto during the first two weeks of October. Whereas I used to wait about 3-5 minutes for the 506 and even the 505, the wait was more towards 7-10 minutes. I stayed at the Courtyard on Yonge and Wood Sts so that was my primary line into and out of the Spadina Chinatown.
This definitely seems to support the claims made that surface service on average has been halfed over the last decade.
-Robert King
Service has not been "halved" in the last decade, though there have been dramatic cuts since TTC ridership reached an all time peak in 1990. The subsequent recession meant less riders and also less funding. Very dramatic cuts were made system wide in 1996 and service has improved in many cases since then, but certainly not up to 1990 levels.
Current midday service Monday to Friday on Carlton is 21 cars providing 5 minute and 45 second scheduled headways. In 1990 during middays there were 27 cars providing 4 minute 22 second headways.
I wanted to know is the M-7's Comfort Level better than the R143's?
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
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Is a luxury motor coach more comfortable than a standard transit bus? Yes.
The new M-7's have seating similar to the new bilevel diesels. The subway cars, while offering an improved, quiet ride, still feature standard subway seating.
So the M7's are more comfortable than the new subway cars. But then you're paying more to ride them.
Maybe standard for NYCTA, but the seating on the subway cars I rode in Boston last week was much more comfortable than anything in the fleet here.
he new M-7's have seating similar to the new bilevel diesels.
Diesels *have* seating????
Where can I ride one?
Does it have a railfan window?
: ) Elias
LOL. Okay, okay!
How about:
Similar to the new diesel's bilevels.
Better?
Geesh..... :)
Isn't this sort of like comparing apples to oranges?
I heard that the comfort level is similar to the C-3 push pull diesel coaches. That's a lot better than the M-1's with their rattles and vibrations.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wanted to know is the M-7's Comfort Level better than the R143's?
You really should have asked if the comfort level is better than the M1's or C1's. You are comparing commuter railroad coaches to subway equipment. That would be like comparing a charter bus to a MTA bus. The subway coaches are always going to be less comfortable than a commuter coach. (And a commuter coach is always going to be less comfortable than a long distance RR coach like Amtrak) Its hard to compare the comfort level of different class equipment to each other because they are all meant to provide a different type of service.
Actually though, from what I heard is that they have similar seating to the diesel bi-level C1's(or tri-levels, whatever you want to call them), except that they have 3-2 seating as opposed to 2-2 seating. I'm going to assume that they are more comfortable than the M1's, but maybe a little less comfortable than the C1's.
The LIRR diesel coaches are all C3 class, not C1. The C1s were the ten prototypes that ran behind the FL9s. The C1s are no longer in service.
Yeah, that's what I meant, I know. I was thinking M1, and for some reason I kept typing "1" when getting to the C class. It was early, didn't have coffee yet.....
I asked that because, I thought maybe since they are brand new units, maybe they have the same comfort level, meaning is the ride as smooth as the M-7's.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
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It's like asking is college harder than high school!
Is the E terminating at 2nd Avenue or at WTC this weekend?
Normally, when the E runs via 6th, it terminates at 2nd. But this weekend, a different GO sends the SB F via Cranberry. Even if the work is south of 2nd, running the E to 2nd might lead some passengers astray. OTOH, it would be useful for those going specifically to 2nd, and the C/E/F crunch between W4 and Canal is a bit tight.
Probably second ave. Wat they usually do in such a case is the last stop southbound for passengers is W4, and then the train runs light to 2 Ave. Then runs in service Noprth from 2 Ave. AT least that's how its done when the D runs to 2nd and the F runs south through Cranberry,
When the D runs to 2nd, does it use the dash?
Not normally. The Grand Street shuttle relays on the express tracks. Before 12/16, it sometimes ran local and sometimes ran express (more often local, IME).
One night the D's were running express south, and local north for that GO...
When the D is extended to 2nd, doesn't it usually run one way via 8th? It has to go local on 8th to get to or from 2nd. (I was once waiting for such a D train at 50th/8th when one actually went by on the express track. I guess it terminated at WTC.)
If it runs on 8th, yes, it has to run local since the switches from 8th to 6th/6th to 8th only exist on the local tracks. That's why when something happens between W4 and Jay, any A trains that are on the express between 59 and W4 can't go anywhere.
As for southbound D's I've never seen one continue in service from W4 to 2 Ave (at least when it runs south on 6th) when the F runs south via Cranberry. The reasoning behind this is that they feel if people see the D come in and hear it will continue down the 6thAve line, they think it ill stop at Delancy and E. B'way and will be 'stranded' at 2nd Ave. At least that was the reasoning a TD gave me.
Oops... as for the D express at 50/8 yes, they would have been terminating at WTC.
Yeah, I know -- but it was signed for 2nd Avenue and all other D trains were going to 2nd Avenue.
I had been waiting a long time for a train. Maybe something had gone wrong on the local track so that D train had to be sent down the express. The next D train ran local.
The last time this happened,it was a total disaster!Believe me I was there for it and I lost count on how many people were CLUELESS! That day I was at Broadway-Lafayette and I had to tell a more than 10 people to either cross to the Queens bound platform and take a train 1 stop to West 4th and cross over again or wait for the Grand St shuttle.The same thing happened at 2nd Av. I noticed that the Brooklyn bound staircase was taped off but that must've been during the late night when the E ran to Whitehall St instead of 2nd Av.
But after that,they FAILED to tape off the platform! Sure the E was stopping where the V does normally but the Brooklyn track wasn't in use so as to why they didn't tape it off is beyond me.
I was on the staircase and standing at where the turnstile's were telling people who were about to walk to the Brooklyn side to go up to West 4th St and take the F there.Then as I finally decided to leave,I had people come into the E train that was on the brooklyn side before they went on wait forever for a train that wouldn't come.
Oh yeah and get this,some people actually THOUGHT that when they read the service notice on the wall saying it started at 12:01AM Saturday, they thought it was for the upcoming 12:01AM,I was there untill 7:30PM so that meant they thought it was gonna start 4 1/2 hours later.I know calling people names is bad but those that thought that were really dumb.
Yes, 2nd ave to Jamaica Ctr. via 63rd st.
For whatever the reasons was, I don't understand why this http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/45_edo.pdf and http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/45_edo.pdf "take-one" stated that E terminate at West 4 instead of 2nd Ave. The last time (back in Aug 31 and Sep 2) when this same G.O. on the E took place, E terminate at 2 Ave instead of West 4 and D was replacing E between 50 St and WTC. Only except that this time, WTC E platform is closed.
During the F line GO hours, the E runs 60th-B'way, terminating at Whitehall.
The other night, they ran one "rogue" E train express up B'Way, then thru 63rd st to Queens. Dunno why.
That's at night. I'm talking about the daytime version.
Incidentally, last week I was on a 6 train whose C/R made a very helpful announcement -- except he made the same mistake you did, and directed E passengers downstairs at 59th rather than up to the street. This was late Sunday morning.
Maybe the E was a reroute.
According to Station's G.O. List: The SOuthboudn E wierminate at West 4 and run light to 2nd Ave where it will neter Northbound service. Overnight E runsa on the R to Whitehall.
Okay, here's what was really happening today:
F trains were running via Rutgers in both directions. E trains were running to 2nd Avenue, with passengers.
The same thing happened last week.
I don't know if the F GO was cancelled or if it ended early.
(Also, 1 trains were running local from Chambers to 34th.)
I recently received word that, as of 10/31/02, there are no R-29's in service.
Can anyone confirm or deny? I last saw them running (on the 5, of course) on 10/24.
See this thread.
--Brian
I know there were a Redbird transfer on Monday and Tuesday nite to 207St. But Tuesday nite, I saw a Redbird set heading back south on the 1 line. this was around the 168St-191St area.........
Some Redbirds are not going to the Reef just yet. A group is re-emerging from 207th St with overhauled trucks and re-entering service.
-Stef
Stef, one would assume that NYCT brass are a bit nervous about scapping all the Redbirds since the experiences with the BOMBardier cars indicates reefing ALL might be a hasty decision.
I have suggested here that some of the Redbirds in better shape be kept for service increases (beyond the modest increase that would be otherwise possible). Is it possible that this is being done?
I have heard it said from various sources that a number of the Redbirds would be kept in mothballs - perhaps these are some of them - but they have to consider the fact that the majority of these cars are eaten up with rust and getting worse.
wayne
The majority, sure -- but some of the R-33's, at least to my untrained eyes, are still in good shape.
The best are now homes for the fishies. Widecab5@aol.com pointed out we're getting 'rotation cars' which are worn out cars taken out of service for several months and then brought back again...many, many problems that East 180th Street crew finds and repairs. R33s are rusted/rotten Redbirds now that can be made servicable for more extended time with decent MBDF but will never look like home again.
Ssstand Back, ...there's a Murricane comin' through!!
It is still a train. Remember what happened in Philly when a few M4s had major bugs and they scrapped all the M3s? SEPTA's busiest line was a mess. They need to keep cars in reserve, and if possible, use the best redbirds to provide service increases.
The best Redbirds became the best fishie homes...rotation cars are now being brought out of the yards to 239th for the East 180th crew to resurrect. Two pairs with severe freon leaks were scrapped today...probably will go to work service...the pair I had carbody assignment on today had 37.5 VDC invertor failure and brake package/emergency valve problems...holding me up for inspection in the dark to discover a broken door panel window improperly secured at 1PM. The job is always a lot of fun, especially when you're struggling to clear out ten minutes after the bell. CI Peter
The best Redbirds became the best fishie homes...rotation cars are now being brought out of the yards to 239th for the East 180th crew to resurrect.
Isn't that kind of dumb? Why didn't they just scrap all the
"rotation" cars first, and keep the best redbirds running to the end?
That's a good question.
Not a snowballs chance in Hell now!!! Last week, I received some OT.
R33 pair had received SMS in major shop...both cars had rebuilt trucks and groupboxes...job was to carefully inspect groupboxes for loose and missing connections which were found and repaired. Point is that TA has recently propulsion/undercar revamped several R33 pairs
for continued service until??? When Bombardier R142 warranties finally expire, all Hell will break loose and I think TA is finalizing
a 'survival plan.' OT for everyone!!! CI Peter, Ubreakem Mefixumup
The Bondo/Duct Tape Squad must be pretty busy nowadays.
Wait: TWO things now going on!!! NO overhauled Redbirds are to be going into RTO/passenger service by Federal edicts (from a CI on the floor.) EIGHT cars being rebuilt at 207th two weeks ago were probably being outfitted with 'diversion valve systems' so they can be used for work service/garbage trains. Yes we did receive three R33 pairs and I passed another pair today on the line with new trucks...got boquoo OT last week because I had to do special inspection of two group boxes...loose or missing 600 VDC cabling discovered by my Deputy Superintendent...had to torque and mark all 600 VDC hardware. Boyz...ride em while you can...Weeks is back at 207th loading Redbird carbodies today...the LAST Redbird excursion will have the fishies as railfanners. CI Peter
Sounds like you guys finally ran out of rotbird carbodsky still connected to chassissky ... at least without having to lower carbodksy by a footsky of three to find weldable steel. Feds caught up with you guys, eh? :)
That's fine, but the fact of the matter is there are Redbirds in service with overhauled trucks. 9074-75 have them and are carrying passengers, as is 8914-15. 9070-71 also came back recently.
So we have more work motors. They'll be put to use.
-Stef
You know that doesn't mean squat Stef. If they can send R27s through the CAP without the usual square wheels, then send them to Naporano two weeks later, or the 17s with brand new radio brackets, they can do it again today. When 9018/9 and 8958/9 got their work service trucks, 9018 had cast iron shoes and 9019's #2 was from the 7366. They were too lazy to install diversion valves on the car's trucks when they came O/S so they used the trash from the outgoing yellowbirds. Next time you see them, look at the numbers on the shoe beams.
NO overhauled Redbirds are to be going into RTO/passenger service by Federal edicts (from a CI on the floor.)
Why are the Feds getting involved?
--Mark
They probably aren't. Car Inspectors usually don't have access to such information (no disrespect intended to OTJ), and the federal government probably couldn't care less -- remember, NYC Transit is not under FRA rules.
David
To Mr. Greenberger & Everyone Else:
Last R-29 trip in passenger service was Thursday, October 24.
I have the numbers somewhere and will post when I get a minute.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
Widecab5@aol.com)
You're kidding! There I was, having just enjoyed a ride on a surprise R-33 2 train, and little did I know that the 5 train that passed in the other direction was on its last trip ever.
Did you have a bugle with you, to play taps?
The T/O driving the very last Redbird in service should be visited by an honor guard of Car Inspectors, Cleaners and Mechanics, upon reefing of that train, with a bugler and the Redbird standard folded and presented to him/her...
Hopefully they will keep a trainset for fantrips though.
Widcab5@aol.com can probably supply info in detail but I'll make this one short: #2 line is swapping R142s with #5 line. #5 will have all the higher numbers now...#2 is getting the older trainsets along with the 'storage cars.' The reasoning is very simple...two many trainsets floating around with incompleted modifications. #5 gets 'completed mod' trainsets to be used wherever (East 180th sans Redbirds) and the rest make 239th 'home' with the vendors to complete
all mods. Barge at 207th has fifty carbodies for the fishies. CI Peter
OK:
6301-6700 on the 2.
Everything else on the 5 for now.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Speaking of the R142s: I can NOT figure this 1 out. I rode 7718 on the 4 today and 7062 on the 5 yesterday and when I got to 59 St the message is comes over the address system as follows:
THIS IS 59 ST. TRANSFER IS AVAILABLE FOR THE 6 F N R and W Trains.
I do not remember the F stopping anywhere at 59/60 St and Lex Ave but at 63 St which is a few blocks away. Unless there's a hidden walkway where you can transfer from the 4 5 6 N R and/or W to the F that nobody knows about? Otherwise why is the F on this recorded address system? Either that or these R142 cars have so many glitches in them it makes Y2K look like a walk in the park.
#1625 4 Lexington Ave Express
Actually, there is an out-of-system MetroCard transfer from the 4,5,6,N,R,W @ 59th and Lex to the F @ 63rd and Lex
So if the 3 gets the 4's R-62's and the 4 gets the R-142A's that had initially been slated for the 3, then the oldest East Side car will be newer than the newest West Side car.
Wait a second...I only know 2 and 5. 3s and 4s are out of my line...
I have two left feet and struggling to do the 'Bomba Dance En Espanoil.' CI Peter
Anyone who wants to ride a "Redbird" train on a fantrip should come with NYD-ERA on December 8. Check the "Current Events" section of nycsubway.org for details. Remember, it's $45 before November 15 and $55 after, and November 15 is almost here!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroader's Association, Incorporated
Accompanied by the strains of Goodbye, Redbirds (to the tune of Good Night, Ladies).:)
7031-40 and 7056-65 have each entered service on the 5. Dave, you can put these sets down on the delivery page in service as of 11/4/02.
One of these sets spelled the end for the R-29s. Did they go to Concourse Yard?
-Stef
P.S. 7066-75 are burn testing for 5 service right now...
7031-40 have red squares under the car# plates. Wassup wit that??
Special cars for Rooskie CIs?
Does it have something to do with the fact that these cars have the newer automated announcement system also used by 6951-60, 7056-65, 7066-75 (not in service), and 7651-7730?
6951-60 have those red squares as well, and stay together most of the time. 7651-60 also stay married.
-Stef
I received the following from my dad who in turn received it from informed railfan Bernard Ente. Enjoy...
--------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:37:06 EST
Subject: NYC Redbird Subway Car Status Oct 31 2002
Cars Reefed (667):
R-26 100
R-28 92
R-29 216
R-33 112
R-33s 1
R-36 146
Cars stripped at 207th (72):
R-26 0
R-28 0
R-29 4
R-33 50
R-33s 0
R-36 18
Cars being stripped (in progress) at 207th (8):
R-26 0
R-28 0
R-29 0
R-33 2
R-33s 0
R-36 6
Cars Waiting to be stripped at 207th (6):
R-26 0
R-28 0
R-29 0
R-33 2
R-33s 0
R-36 4
Cars in Storage at Concourse Yard (82):
R-26 4
R-28 6
R-29 0
R-33 58
R-33s 0
R-36 14
not counting last night's arrival of 20 R-33 cars from Mosholu.
Cars in Storage at Unionport (36):
R-26 2
R-29 14
R-33 10
Cars in Storage at Westchester (10):
R-33 10
Cars Held for EPA at E. 180 St. (10):
R-26 2
R-28 2
R-29 2
R-33 2
R-36 2
Cars Used with Signal Dolly @ 207th (8):
R-33 8
Cars Used by Police @ Floyd Bennett (2):
R-33 2
Cars Used by RTO @ Canarsie (2):
R-26 2
Cars Used by Coney Island O/H (2):
R-33 2
GRAND TOTAL: 905
REDBIRD FLEET STATUS
R-26 7750-7859
Fleet Total: 110
Reefed: 100
207 Street: 0
Concourse: 4
EPA (E. 180 St.) 2+2
Canarsie 2
Total in Service: 0
R-28 7860-7959
Fleet Total: 100
Reefed: 92
207 Street: 0
Concourse: 6
EPA (E. 148 St.) 2
Total in Service: 0
R-29 8570-8805
Fleet Total: 236
Reefed: 216
207 Street: 4
Concourse: 0
EPA (E. 180 St.) 2
E. 180 St. 14
Total in Service: 0
R-33 8806-9305
Fleet Total: 500
Reefed: 112
207 Street: 54
Concourse: 58
EPA (E. 180 St.): 2
Unionport: 20
Westchester: 10
Signal Dolly: 8
Coney Island O/H: 2
Scrap: 14
NYPD Floyd Bennett: 2
Total in Service: 220
R-33s 9306-9345
Fleet Total: 40
Reefed: 1
207th 0
Concourse: 0
Museum: 1
Total In Service: 38
R-36 9346-9769
Fleet Total: 424
Reefed: 146
207th: 28
Concourse: 14
EPA (E. 180 St.): 2
Total in Service: 234
Total Redbirds in Service: 492
Cars Reefed (667)
Total to Delaware: 567
Total to South Carolina: 100
Cars stripped at 207th (80)
Cars Used with Signal Dolly at 207th (8)
Cars Used by NYPD at Floyd Bennett (2)
Cars Used by RTO at Canarsie (2)
Reefed Car Totals:
Delaware:
Load Number Load Date Total Cars for Load
1 8/16/01 27
2 8/23/01 30
3 9/06/01 31
4 9/20/01 31
5 10/4/01 31
6 10/13/01 31
7 10/24/01 30
8 1/10/02 31
9 1/19/02 31
10 1/23/02 32
11 1/30/02 34
12 2/15/02 32
13 3/01/02 32
14 3/21/02 32
15 4/18/02 32
18 8/21/02 & 8/22/02 50
19 10/28/02 & 10/29/02 50
South Carolina:
16 7/09/02 & 7/10/02 50
17 7/29/02 & 7/30/02 50
That's the whole list
WHEW!
--Brian
Damn, I didn't know Bernie was up on his Redbirds! He's mostly a mainline RR kinda guy...surprise, surprise...
What about Corona's (7's) Redbirds? By far, they are in the WORSE condition!
Brian, Thanks for the update, i've printed off a copy for future reference.
Mr rt__:^)
Run, don't walk, to your local supermarket where you may be able buy a box of General Mills brands cereals that come with a free copy of the movie "Muppets take Manhattan" on DVD! Why should you do this, you ask? Hmm, let me count the reasons:
1) you're hungry
2) you just bought a new half gallon of milk and need to use up your almost empty old half gallon of milk (my reason tonight)
3) you want to see movie scenes of HOBOKEN TERMINAL of Edison MU cars leaving the station (featuring Miss Piggy)
4) you want to see movie scenes of an "LIRR freight train" being pulled by an LIRR MP-15 [i think] and passing two parked GP-38's [i think] with the Manhattan skyline in the background (featuring Fozzy Bear in a box car)
This is a classic movie that the whole family can enjoy! Happy hunting.
--Brian
"Muppets takes Manhattan?.." Sound like Barney will be discharge from kid's favorite prime time show. :)
No, this is a movie. And a witty one at that. Today's kids don't dig this stuff. That's the problem with today's yutes. They like stuff like Barney and not stuff like the Muppets. Our society is going down the toilet.
Wow...those seem like good LIRR scenes. Does the LIRR still run MP-15s?
4) you want to see movie scenes of an "LIRR freight train" being pulled by an LIRR MP-15 [i think] and passing two parked GP-38's [i think] with the Manhattan skyline in the background (featuring Fozzy Bear in a box car)
RUN, DON'T WALK, to your nearest supermarket!
How old is that movie?
1984 - click here
--Brian
Hey! When did NJTransit get new MU's? I saw one in Penn Station from my train which departed at 7:22. I wasn't aware they got new coaches? What model are they? Who are they made by? They were stainless steel with an R-142-like decal that ran along the bottom of the car. The middle doors seemed wider than the older MU's. Have I been asleep at the wheel?
nappy
Not for NJT, but LIRR. These are M-7s.
-Stef
Yes, you've been asleep. Have some coffee and then read the posts on this site more often :)
--Brian
NJT hasn't gotten any new MU cars, what you saw were their new stainless push-pull coaches, the Comet V.
Hmmmm. Either he can't tell an MU from a coach, in which case he is confused; or he can't tell NJT from LIRR, in which case he is confused.
The Comet Vs have some similarities to the M7s - side windows, for example. Door layout is completely different, though.
I have some recent photos of Comets but couldn't figure out how to post an image in this message box. If anyone can explain how, I'd be glad to post one. Thanks.
write ". That will do it. Please post them!
Tried it but it didn't work. My photos are JPEGs accessed using MS Photo Editor.
If I copy the picture nothing happens when I try to paste into the message box, with or without the quote marks. Please be a little more specific with your instructions and I'll try again.
Oops, I screwed that last post. I'm going to a big train show in Syracuse now. (How's that for an excuse?) I'll try to post better instructions when i get back. Sorry.
--Brian
First you need to post the picture on a webserver somewhere. You cannot just copy them into a text post.
Once you have it on a webserver, you use standard HTML code to display it here.
The actual line of code that caused the picture to appear is:
{img src="http://test.assumptionabbey.com/Photos/BNSF.jpg"}
where you replace the { } with < and >
The "webserver" that I am using is in my own office. Win2K and XP both have built in webservers which you can use if you have a static IP number.
Elias
The "webserver" that I am using is in my own office. Win2K and XP both have built in webservers which you can use if you have a static IP number.
Can anyone do that if they have XP (which I do). What is a "static IP number"?
A "static IP number" means you have an always-on connection to the internet (cable modem, DSL, dedicated T-1, or some such) AND that said connection has been assigned a fixed IP address, not one that changes every time you connect. When I first had cable service I had a static IP address, but my provider changed everything and now we connect through a DHCP server, which means that each time I reconnect I get a different IP. The security of my computer is significantly enhanced as a result, but it can't be used as a webserver that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. I use a dial-up connection at both home and work, so I can't use that idea.
The IIS server is standard on Win2K and WinXP, but is not loaded by default. You need to install it from your system disk and set it up as a "service" (a service runs when your computer is booted up, but before you actually log on to a desktop).
We have DSL and love it all to peices, the static IP number costs us an extra $10 a month. But we also use it to host our own email (MX) server.
Tis a simple matter to run the IIS as well.
We have about 20 computers on our network, all sharing that one DSL connection. If you have more than one computer at home it is cheaper to run DSL than to run separate dial up lines. (Especially since it also serves as your telephone line all at the same time) In that case the DSL router protects your IP number from being hacked. The one computer with the ISS / MX server however is outside of this protection (as it needs to be for you to address mail to us or access the ISS webserver. (Actually, I am running both ISS for web pages and Apache for remote (web-based) email access by our users.)
You *can* have a static IP number with dial up, but 1) it will cost; and 2) it will be as slow or slower than ever. We originally had 14 computers sharing a single 56K modem (on all of the time, but not a static number) before DSL was available in our area. Even so we did not buy the FASTEST option that our telephone company (ISP) offered.
Elias
A DHCP server does not imply a static or non-static IP. On most Network the DHCP server is usually responsible for maintaining static IP's based on a hardware address. Its a little hard to do IP printing if the IP's keep changing.
If I copy the picture nothing happens when I try to paste into the message box, with or without the quote marks. Please be a little more specific with your instructions and I'll try again.
The photos have to be posted first online somewhere, you can't post photos from your own computer to a post unless you already posted it online womewhere. Once you have a URL for a photo, it should be very easy to post it, that is if your photos are downloaded in a site that allows it. Webshots and many others do not make it possibe.
Speaking of which, does anyone know of a place where you can post photos (cheaply)? I have just started to scan many of my photos, and would like to share them in posts once in a while, but have no idea where to begin. Anyone have any suggestions?
If you have a static IP number, you can do it right from your own computer, even if you do not have a web domain.
The IIS server is already part of your Win2K or XP operating system, and I think it might also be on Win98 or ME, but I am not sure about that, but in any case it is not installed by default.
Once you do load it, the help menus that go with it will also become available to you. Or your can download a free copy of Apache from the internet. There is a version for Windows.
When you put a computer on line like this you do need a firewall to protect it from attacks. There are some good free ones out there. I use "Tiny Firewall" a freebe that came with one of my hubs.
Elias
>>> If you have a static IP number, you can do it right from your own computer, even if you do not have a web domain <<<
Your picture did not come through, but looking at the source makes me think you might have forgotten a quotation (") mark.
Tom
If you have a static IP number, you can do it right from your own computer, even if you do not have a web domain.
the code line then would look like:
{img src="12.23.190.250/Photos/ETrunsR9,jpg"}
The IIS server is already part of your Win2K or XP operating system, and I think it might also be on Win98 or ME, but I am not sure about that, but in any case it is not installed by default.
Once you do load it, the help menus that go with it will also become available to you. Or your can download a free copy of Apache from the internet. There is a version for Windows.
When you put a computer on line like this you do need a firewall to protect it from attacks. There are some good free ones out there. I use "Tiny Firewall" a freebe that came with one of my hubs.
Elias
PS: Dave gives us this nice preview option that you can play with until it works correctly, but which I clearly failed to do with my last post :( Me Bad
NEXT TIME:
When you post HTML tags, you don't need to use {} and tell people to replace it with <>
Just use the following:
< = <
> = >
& = &
So if you want to enter <Q>, you would use <Q>
NOTE: You must enter these things as all caps, and you cannot preview them. If you must preview, click back on your web browser and post from the form, NOT THE PREVIEW!
If they had NJtransit logo's on them you most likely saw the new Comet V pushpull cars made by Alstom in Hornell NY. NJTransit has no new MU's
Ok, so NJT isn't getting MUs anytime soon, probably not till after 2015 at the soonest, and the Arrow III's will probably not be replaced by MUs, but by some locomotive (ALP-48s? perhaps Swiss Re460s this time?) hauled comet VIs, to beat FRA regs on MU operation. But just for the heck of it, let's suppose that NJT is gonna go EMU in the immediate future, or at least purchase a few for Local service, while locomotive pulled comets run the express routes. What EMU currently on the market would you select for NJT if you were on the commitee? You can make basically any modification to get it onto the American rail system, such as electrical systems, seating arrangements, and truck systems.
I would have to say that the Danish Flexliner would be on the top of my list. Of course modifications would need to be made to it, such as decreasing the pitch, possibly making it 3+2 (that'd have to wait til the M-7s are fully in service, to see how they do with the 3+2 to 2+2 seating change), also a single unit version would be needed, with cabs at either end of a non-married car, for use on the Dinky and so on, but I think the semi-articulated married-triplets sounds like a good idea, it would mean only 16 wheels on the gound where there had been 24, which would mean lower maintainance fees, of course if something goes wrong in one of the three cars, that's one more car out of service than with the MAH-1Js. One of the interesting things is that with the DMU versions of the Flexliner, it would seem to me that you could take the DMUs and EMUs, place them at every other set in a train, perhaps DMU-EMU-DMU-EMU-DMU, and then run the train out from under the catenary, acceleration would suck in either regieme, and I'm hoping that the EMU version is a bit more powerful than the DMU, but in that configuration the train could be run from Port Jervis or Hacketstown direct into NYP.
Anybody else got any critism, or better ideas?
Man, you confuse an MU with a push/pull coach and you commit blasphemy on this board. Alright, I'm guilty. I saw the overhead access air-conditioning units and mistook them for pantograph units. I was on a moving train. My bad
nappy
Hey man, I wasn't getting down on you for thinking the Comet V was a new and improved Arrow, heck that was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It's just that NJT has MU-phobia, they're afraid of the costs that the FRA levies on those that insist on running them. Hence the 9 car ALP pulled comets that are replacing 12+ cars of Arrows, resulting in more than a few standees. Pretty soon it'll be SEPTA, MN, LIRR, and Metra as the only railroads running MUs in the Us, if the current trend continues, and even then, Metra's electric Highliners comprise only one line of the system, and are probably on the way out anyway.
The major reason that NJT is avioding MU's is the FRA regs that consider every MU as a locomotive and requires all the FRA rigamole and Mickey Mouse stuff that goes with a locomotive, but nothing as severe for a passenger coach, even one with cab controls.
The FRA is worse than even the ICC on steriods.
The Flexliner would also have been an ideal solution for Amtrak's Hartford-Springfield service. If they ran a DMU and an EMU Flexliner together, they could have kept through service to New York, Philly and DC instead of having to run shuttle service from Springfield to New Haven or changing power at New Haven like they do now.
However, the Flexliner was made by Adtranz which Bombardier took over in late 2000, and I think Bombardier isn't interested in making the Flexliner anymore. They have their own DMU/EMU train, the Talent. The Talent is a very nice-looking train with a bullet-shaped nose. But that bullet-shaped nose prevents passage from one car to the next, something you can do in linked sets of Flexliners.
If NJT gets its way it won't get new MU's ever. There is the strong possibility that they will try to go 100% push pull.
Whoops, I didn't see you state my very point.
NJT is not going to go with any sort of euro-trash car. Euro-designs are simply too small for the sort of crush-load traffic that NJT sees. They will want something with as much interrior room as possible and of course hi-lo-level platform capibility.
I would look toward the design of the SEPTA Silverliner V. Of course no 2-2 seating, but two, extra wide hi/lo doors would almost be a given due to the new FRA regs eliminating vestabule doors on the end of "leading" cars. The alternative would be longer MU trainsets of 3-5 cars with end cars maybe having a 3rd single door setback from the cab end.
Hey, don't worry about it, I got my post in a whole minute before you, in all likelyhood my post wasn't on the board when you started posting your response.
Why wouldn't NJT go for European rail cars? MN and LIRR are going for the M-7, which isn't much different from the Flexliner, just married pairs, not triplets, and there are two more doors per side for three cars. That is one thing that would have to go, NJT NEEDS at least 2 doors per car per side, that and the 2+2 seating are two things that would have to change if an Americanized version were ever to be built, unlikely though that may be. Seating can always be changed, if something is 2+1, it can be made 3+2 just as easy as having a socket wrench handy.
Silverliner Vs would also be nice for NJT, especially if they're all that the Septa pamphlets make them out to be, at the least we'll get an RFW (maybe, assuming NJT doesn't go all FRA friendly on us).
The M-7 is not European in way except for some asthetic similarities. European rolling stock is light weight (for less safety) and much smaller, in both width and height. Combine light rail vehicles with coach busses and you have Europen trains.
Like the M-1's did w/ the R42/44/46, the M-7's sort of have a unified design theme with the R-142/3's. NJT typically gets a more mainstream design that is as off the shelf as possible. So they would either try to get something like the Silverliner V as by the time it is needed that design will be a tested and working product just like the ARROW III's were off the shelf Silverliner IV's.
Oh come on, "European rolling stock is light weight (for less safety)" simply isn't true, they run as tight a ship as sny railroad over here, it simply happens that they manage to avoid accidents, and as such have no need for over weight train cars. Besides, it isn't the weight of a car, it is how it's engineered. Unfortunately right now I don't see a lot of real original structural engineering going into railcar design, FRA regs could be met at lower weight, and yet the design would be every bit as safe as anything on the rails today. Within 20 year europe will begin rolling out Composite railcars, which will weigh a fraction of what a steel car weighs, and have loadings equal to or greater the loadings that a steel or stainless steel car can take now. Composite Aircraft have been flying for over 30 years now, and a few have saved their pilots lives in situations where an aluminum plane would have shredded. Just because a train is light weight does not mean that it's is weak. In fact, a lighter trainset should be safer, especially in a front-on collision, there is less pushing on the back of the colliding car, and consequently less force on the car's body. Assuming that the car is well engineered, it should come out better off than anything out there now.
Alright, the Flexliners are small, I'll give you that, but to me the Metropolitan series from the MTA looks small as well, but in reality thay are at least as big as the Arrows. I guess I need to visit Denmark, to get an idea of the actual size of them. There does appear to be an oversize aisle, undoubtedly a side effect of the intercity routes that they run, and that could be eaten into to add seats and make it 3+2. Besides, even with 2+2 seating, a 12 car train of Flexliners would at least equal if not surpass a 9 car train of Comets, and do it with greater acceleration, every bit the speed, and greater reliablity.
I get the last part, it make sense, but first off, how can you say that the Arrows and Silverliner IVs are mainstream designs? There are 1609 or so M-1s,2s,3s,4s,6s. I couldn't find a good roster for Septa, but got 557 (I know that number is wrong) Silverliner Is,IIs,IIIs,IVs and Arrow IIs,and IIIs (not Arrow Is). If that is the case, then which is the "mainstream" design, the Ms or the Silverliners/Arrow? The Silverliners/Arrows may look like the old MP54s and stuff, but if the Ms were built in greater numbers, then aren't they the new Mainstream design? I suppose it's a moot point cause now Septa is buying the M-7-derived Silverliner V, if NJT follows suit (not that that is likely), then MN's New Haven branch will be the oddball MU operation in the US.
One last question about the Arrows and Silverliners. Which of the three came first, the Arrow II, the Silverliner IV, or the Arrow III? I know there has to be some interesting history there, since all of them are slighly different. GE built both the Silverliner IVs and the M-2s, right? IF so, then is there any relationship in the large roof mounted fairing on both designs? I always assumed that the traction package for both was similar. Or is that HVAC equipment?
manage to avoid accidents, and as such have no need for over weight train cars.
HA! In the UK they have had a seriously fatal accident for each of the last 4 years. Its killed something like 80 people. In all of the cases lightweight car design attributed to the death toll. In one case a train flipped over and broke appart after hitting a vehicle on the tracks. Imagine if that happened every time there was a grade crossing accident over here. As AEM7 has pointed out, a standard US car can absorb 1MJ of energy. A European coach is safely designed to absorb 2MJ at each end, for 4MJ total. Now, compare the weights and speeds involved in trains compared to cars and you can see how disproportionate the rail safety measures are.
Composite Aircraft have been flying for over 30 years now, and a few have saved their pilots lives in situations where an aluminum plane would have shredded.
Yeah, except in the case of that A300 over the Rockaways.
There are some cases where bigger is better. Look how an SUV will just demolish any sort of normal car it hits. Trains and rolling stock needs to be able to demolish obsticles that get in their way, not fly off the track, rip open and kill hundreds of people.
There is also the issue of comfort. Lightweight cars ride like shit. They are also undoubtably smaller. An Amfleet coach car is the size of a European first class car. If commuters are stuffed in the cramped, bouncy rail vehicles, no matter how fast the acceleration is, they will just go and get into their big old SUV for a nice smooth roomey ride to work.
The M-# design was designed by the MTA's in house design office I believe. The Arrows and Silverliners were designed by their respective builders. Furthermore, the LIRR and MNRR are very different operations from NJT and SEPTA. For one, the former uses all hi-platforms in its electric territory.
The roof bulge on the Silverliner IV and M-2 are for dynamic brake grids. I believe that the order is Arrow II, Silverliner IV and Arrow III.
don't know if you know, but there are new EMU'S coming to NJT. they will be made by Bombardier. they look like one of the EMU's that is used in Germany, built by the same manufacturer. go to www.transport.bombardier.com to see them. you may have to see them in the media center. don't know if you know thats why i am posting
New DMU's are coming to Camden from (former Adtranz) in Berlin for NJT's SNJLRTS.
More photos at bottom of Webshots page.
the one that i seem to be looking at are supposed to be the new lightrail vehicles for njt. i am most likely mistaken the one that i have seen are not diesel powered. they are electric and not made in berlin. they are made in some other city. in Germany. have you seen it?
The new Light Rail Vehicles for NJT are either the Kinki Sharyo LRVs that NJT is running up in the northeastern corner of the state on the HBLRT and the NCS, or they are the Adtranz DMUs from Germany for the SNJLRTS. You won't be seeing much variety on the HBLRT, NCS, or even the Newark Elizabeth Rail Link, as NJT seems to be going for a unified roster to keep maintainance costs to a minimum, all the artwork that has been done for the NERL shows the same Kinkis that the NCS and HBLRT use.
Near as I can tell, the DMUs that NJT will be running on the South Jersey Light Rail will be similar to the German Class 646, but with the front end similar to the less streamlined Class 650, oddly enough using the 646's automatic coupler. Of course Mr Vogel has as always been kind enough to post his pictures of them online at his webshots site. In Germany these DMUs are perfectly acceptable as mainline or at least branch line trains, however, here with the insane FRA breathing down everybody's neck, they are considered too weak to go head to head with a trio GP40 and their 50 cars (probably corret anyway), so they are relagated to LRT duties only at hours when heavy rail trains are not using those rails.
I suspect that the EMU you probably saw was Bombardier touting it's Talent series of DMUs and EMUs. In typical bombardier fashion, they don't really specify whether they come in diesel-electric dual mode, or just one or the other. It seems to be that it's just electric and just diesel. To make it worse, the photos that come up in sequence at the top of the screen make show the diesel and then the electric version under some catenary, just to confuse us. NJT's DLRV is based off the Adtranz series that became Bombardier's Talent, but, IIRC, they aren't the same product. The Talent is signifigantly heavier than the DLRV, and travels faster, it is more suited to mainline local running between major business centers as opposed to the DLRV's ancestors, which were the ones to handle the lighter load runs from suburbs to rather rural areas. I think the DLRV had to be slowwed down and lightened up from it's German ancestry to make sure the FRA would leave NJT alone over it's new line, they already must not like the shared use thing with CSAO, and it wouldn't take much for them to decide that it's their business.
Hope I helped a little .
Thanks
exactly
Actually the Talent was built by Wagenfabrik Talbot in 1996, but shortly after that, they were acquired by Bombardier. It's become very popular in Germany both with the DB and the private local lines. Norway's rail system also purchased some of them and Austria's rail system has electric-powered Talents on order. And of course OC Transpo in Ottawa, Canada, is running them. I'm surprised Bombardier decided to build the Adtranz-designed cars for the Trenton-Camden line. I thought when they acquired Adtranz, they would use Talent DMUs on the line. The Talent is a much more attractive car, IMHO, than is the 646/DLRV.
This is a photo of an NJ Transit Comet V coach:
Oh, and here's an interior shot:
This photo and previous photo courtesy Bob Daniels from www.ble373.org
Are these trains in service and on which lines?
Very few are in service as of yet. They can be found running as 3-car sets (I suppose) along the Morristown Line. I am not sure though, of which line the train belongs on, since the Gladstone, Midtown Direct, and Boonton line trains could run via the Morristown Line through to Hackettstown.
Most likely a Gladstone train because Gladstone trains are always a 3-car set of MU's, either three, single-units connected, or a married pair and a single unit.
I have personally seen one going westbound at Orange Station led by an ALP44 around 5:30pm on a Saturday.
Refurbished Comet II's are popping up on the NEC "clubbed in" with Comet IV coaches. These are not very rare.
The Comet V was ordered to replace the Comet I fleet, :(, and replace some older push-pulls so you'll see the Hoboken Division lines filled with them in the near future.
I saw a trainset of Comet V's at Elizabeth Station on Oct 14th.
This past Friday (11/1) I rode a six car consist of Comet V's on Coast Line train # 3240 from Matawan to New York. Later that same day, I rode a six car consist of Comet V's on Montclair Train #6242 from Upper Montclair to Newark Broad Street.
I only have one question - Would you enter the subway blindfolded?
That's exactly what a group of young adults did this evening at 66th St. One seeing eyedog (it has two legs, not four) for a small group of 4 people. There were at least 3 seeing eyedogs guiding the blind through the turnstiles and down the underpass to the Uptown Plat. I'm scratching my head and wonder what the hell is going on here?!?
A Cleaner mentioned this was a Fraternity. Great! Will they do Stupid Human Tricks next?
-Stef
A dog with only two legs? THAT'S CRAZY! I'm Brian Fellow!
--Brian
A dog with only two legs? THAT'S CRAZY! I'm Brian Fellow!
I think he meant it that another person (not a dog) was leading them. That makes me think this may be some kind of college thing, although it could be a person leading real blind people. The thought scares me either way. If they are not really blind, and it is just a college thing, they would not be used to walking around the subway and not being able to see. All you need is one bad move and someone is on the tracks in front of a train. At least real blind people know their other senses better, and know better how to walk around, not knowing how to see. Either way though it's a scary thought.
Maybe it was a serious college experiment. To give students an idea what it is like to be blind and entering the subway system.
I had an experience like that 3 months ago. I had an operation on my foot and told to stay off it for several weeks. On Sunday mornings I wanted to attend Mass at my church 2 blocks away. I did not want to watch it in TV. So I borrowed a wheelchair. One Sunday I tried going to Church on my own. I realised how uneven the sidewalk is. How difficult to go on and off the curbs. How curved the streets are. Crowned? And in general how difficult it is to get around whereas before I never gave it a second thought.
What all of us, who have no handicaps, take advantage of is the fact that we have no handicaps, until we fall on a situation like you had. Now imagine that same wheelchair situation and add the subway to the mix. That is some scary stuff. I really give someone credit, who is in a wheelchair, and does their best to get around. It's not easy.
Not easy at all. I read a TA booklet a few years back about disabled travel. If someone in a wheelchair is going to JFK via subway, They are to take the A train to Mott Ave and then take the train back to Howard Beach to take advantage of the handicapped exit.
And then there are the wonderful cases of elevators that remain dead for months at a time.
And then there are the wonderful cases of elevators that remain dead for months at a time.
Or the new ones that take years to install.
Many (many) years ago (when I was in the Navy) we did a similar thing on board ship. They shut off all of the lights and you had to 'escape' from your berthing and or work space safely. It is not as easy as you think.
Elias
>>> I'm scratching my head and wonder what the hell is going on here?!? <<<
It could be some group trying to raise awareness of just how poorly New York subways provide for the visually handicapped. Or possibly orientation for workers who will be working with blind people to give them a "day in the life" experience of their clients.
Tom
Or just some college fraternity nonsense.
If both people were blindfolded, I'd agree.
Hazings in the subway can only lead to somebody getting 3 days off
>>> Hazings in the subway can only lead to somebody getting 3 days off <<<
Why?? No MTA personnel were involved.
Tom
Excuse me? I totally missed that.
-Stef
Hazing-
SNIFF, SNIFF. Too much steel dust up my nostrils. I must be seeing and hearing things....LOL!
-Stef
I was talking about the time a crew gets off when their train hits a person.
I think he means whoever was working at the booth and let them in is probably going to be suspended.
Atleast did the (human) DOG pay it's fare...
Oh Yea! I'll try not to go OT here, but the DOG definitely paid it's fare and didn't bark once, didn't mark it's territory, or do anything dastardly (Once in a while they do).
Good One.......
-Stef
There are three large mosaics at the Times Square complex by Jack Beal, Jacob Lawrence and Roy Lichtenstein. My absolute favorite is Jack Beal's "The Return of Spring". Here's a link to an image of the work:
Jack Beal mosaic at Times Square
It has been up since September 2001 and seems to have attracted very little press attention. I'm not sure if it was unveiled after the World Trade Center horror.
I just love it. It's very realistic and the colors are very rich and warm. I tell people that the kid on the bike is a younger heypaul. The three workmen bending over a hole seem like The Three Wise Men. From what I've read, the work has a strong influence from Greek mythology. There's a young women in the picture carrying flowers who is supposed to be Persephone, whoever that is.
I've had my eye on it since last year. At first, I had a hard time finding it, during all the work that has been going on in the complex. It's located at 41st St. & 7th Ave, accessible from the middle stairway of the #1,2 & 3 platforms. It is also along the route to the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
Oddly, there is no plaque identifying the artist or the title of the work. It is lit up quite well with spotlights though.
I'm curious how other people find this mural.
Thank you for the link. That is one of my favorite pieces of subway artwork.
David... I'm glad to hear someone else has noticed it and likes it... Have you ever seen mention of it in the newspaper?... The MTA does acknowledge it on the #1 line station arts guide...
I've never seen mention of it anywhere (except here). I didn't even know the artist or title until your post came along. The other artwork at Times Square doesn't do anything for me, despite the hype.
I also like this mural at 36th Street in Brooklyn:
David... If you want to read an interpretation of the Jack Beal mosaic, click on the 6th entry Mosaici a New York City on this Google Search Results page. Click on "Translate this page" if your Italian is not up to speed. The translation is garbled but gives a sense of the mural.
jack beal
I like the 3 murals in the 36th Street Brooklyn station also. I ran into them a couple of years while riding the rails with BMTman and company. The artist is Owen Smith, who did the mural inside the Kawasaki 142's. His work has a nice 30's look.
The other two murals at Times Square don't do much for me either. Jacob Lawrence's work is too abstract or expressionistic for my literal sense. Roy Lichtenstein's work is a little too futuristic for me. Although there are two interesting items about Lichtenstein. He referred to Philip Copp's "Silver Connection" for details on the design of the "42" in the mural. And really neat is the fact that Lichtenstein deferred the grant for his art work, which allowed the money to be used to fund Jack Beal and Jacob Lawrence. That was a very classy thing to do.
Paul, thanks for the info on Lichtenstein regarding Phil Copp, and the grant deferment.
Definitely one of my favorite art installations in the subway.
As long as we're sharing photos...
Thanks David... That gives a much clearer shot of the younger Heypaul on the bicycle.
It still amazes me that there is nothing by the mural identifying the artist.
Much better. I'll take yours over mine any day.
Beautiful. I hope some of the people that were criticizing how New York's system was in decay, and had ugly uninteresting stations in the other thread a few weeks ago are taking note.
>>> Here's a link to an image of the work: <<<
Your link is to a canvas, that I guess the artist worked from to create the mural in the subway. What size is the mural? I liked what I saw, and would like to see all three of them. Is this a new artistic upgrade to the subway. Will there be more mosaic murals in other stations? This one is conservative when compared to the Rivera murals of the ‘30s, which of course were meant to be political messages to the illiterate under class.
Tom
Tom... The size of the Jack Beal mosaic is about 6 ft x 21 ft... It is large... The artist's rendition on canvas was put on computer and the computer controlled the cutting of the 1,000,000+ pieces of this mosaic using 1,000 colors...
The Arts for Transit Program is at least 10 years old. They have a webpage which shows the artwork on each of the subway lines, station by station.
listing of artwork
The Arts for Transit program is a well designed and classy operation.
Thanks for that link! I never knew that existed. Now I will know which stations to pay more attention to when I am out with my camera on the subway next time.
Thanks for that link! I never knew that existed.
I mean the link of course, I never knew they had all of that on the MTA website. Before when I would see subway murals, it was just a matter of finding them by accident. Now I know which stations to look in for them a little better.
Persephone was the daughter of Demeter, the goddess of the harvest.
She was betrothed to Hades, the god of death and moved with him to the underworld, leading Demeter to be very sad and thus plunging the world into a permanent winter.
Eventually, Hades was convinced to allow Persephone to stay with her mother on Mt. Olympus, but only for 6 months out of the year.
And that is how the ancient Greeks explained the seasons.
I also like that mural.
Jack Beal has also done other public works, such as those for the US Dept of Labor in Wash., DC. I've never seen those in situ, but the are reproduced, along with many other of his works in this book:
Jack Beal
by Eric Shanes
c. 1993
ISBN:1-55595039-6
He is known for very dynamic compostions that direct the eye rather eloquently around the picture plane. He was more well known in the '60s and '70s. His figures sometimes have an odd, cartoon-like quality and he uses very vibrant colors. This combined with his dynamic arrangements lend his work well to public art.
Urbanlens... Thanks for the information about the Jack Beal book... I haven't seen any of his other work but I am drawn to the intensity of colors as well as the theme... It is available used for $20 on up... Is the book worth a look??... It doesn't have to have subway themes, but are there other intense kind of scenes??... Thanks again...
Only worth a look if you are into that type of art, it doesn't have any subway themes or anything. He has done many portrait commissions (one in the national portrait gallery in DC), as well as a few other public murals, in addition to showing at galleries, etc. You may just want to check it out at the library.
Yes, I've seen it on several occasions, either rushing to the Broadway lines or the Flushing lines and admittingly, I nver gave it much thought until this post. Since it has so many references to Greek mythology, I now look at it at a whole new light. It truly is magnificent. I wonder how long it took for Mr. Beal to paint it?
CPSTP... If you mean painting the actual mural on the wall, he didn't. If I understand the process correctly, he executed a painting and then it was translated to colored glass. Then it was assembled by the mosaic people. If I recall correctly, it took 2500 manhours to assemble it.
I see; that sure is a long time... BTW, it's CPCTC.
What a refreshing change to the mix of posts you bring.
Glad to have you back here my friend !
And judging by all the responces, it's what many have been craving.
Thanks Thurston... Despite my occasional tantrums to the contrary, I have missed the activity and people of Subtalk. In the time that I've been away, I've become aware of what a treasure of mosaics and artistry went into the early subway and the work being done now by Arts for Transit, as well as Music Under New York. I am happy to find other people here who enjoy this side of the subways.
On a personal note, we are all very lucky to have you the honorable and good friend that you are.
Over the last year, I've gotten interested in subway mosaics. Over the last month or so, I've been amusing myself doing a copy of the old TIMES SQUARE sign that is on the wall by the exit near the brdige across the shuttle tracks.
I took some pictures with my camcorder, measured the whole sign out, and proceeded to do a full size replica using poster board, which I either colored blue or white, and cut into 5/8" squares. Well I did that for most of the TIMES part of the sign, and have been cheating to get the rest of the sign done. It is not done as I have to paste in the "S" in SQUARE and do some restyling of the "Q" and "R".
TIMES SQUARE sign
There are over 2500 pieces of cut-up paper, which has kept me quite content in the day treatment program. Aside from showing off what approximately $250,000 of your taxpayer money has accomplished, I am really in awe of how the tile workers back 100 years ago accomplished this and other extraordinary works.
Are there any documents which describe the mosaic work done on the original subway? How did they do this? Did they cut each tile as they worked??
I know that the Jack Beal mosaic, as well as most of the modern ones are not done by hand, but with the assistance of a computer.
There are a couple of books describing the ceramics and mosaics found in the subway... I don't have either of them so I can't comment on the specifics of what they might contain, but I would guess that they are available through the library. They are Susan Tunick's Ceramic Ornament in the New York City Subway System and Lee Stookey's Subway Ceramics: A History and Iconography, both of which are referenced on theSubway Bibliography: Art and Design page of this website.
Or our resident mosaic expert, Wayne Whitehorne, might have the answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although it has nothing on the construction of the mosaics, there's also Paintings by Squire Vickers, 1872-1947, Designing Architect of the New York Subway System, a catalog from a 1992 exhibition of his works with a brief essay on his work, including BMT tile bands and historical plaques, and the architecture of IND substations.
39 years ago, on November 3, 1963 car 7407 pulled into Irvington Car House and closed out the 104 year history of Baltimore's streetcars.
7407 is alive and well today at The Baltimore Streetcar Museum
Are you guys having an appropriate celebration at the museum?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most likely not.
It will probably be announced on all the cars operating today.
Remember, the anniversary means little to the visitors. Most of them either weren't around in 1963 or lived in an area that lost its cars earlier.
We will do something in 2016, which will be the 50th. We did something for the 25th.
Remember, I was there. I lived it. The world ended at 6:34 AM for us. For the rest, the world ended in Dallas on Novermber 22nd.
I don't know if the word 'celebration' is a good one to use; I don't think streetcar abandonments are anything anybody here wants to celebrate. I guess I think they should be commemorated, but in any case it's unfortunate Baltimore did abandon...
However, hopefully the Baltimore Streetcar Museum doesn't follow this method of operation:
October(?) 2000:
10th anniversary of the retirement of the TTC's original Gloucster subway cars. The Toronto Transportation Society did nothing to commemorate the event. Not even a mention of it was made in the newsletter or at any of the meetings. I don't know if anything was done at Halton.
December (specifically, December 8) 2000:
5th anniversary of the retirement of the TTC's last revenue service PCC cars. The Toronto Transportation Society did nothing to commemorate the event. Not even a mention of it was made in the newsletter or at any of the meetings. I don't know if anything was done at Halton.
Mid 2003:
10th anniversary of the second and truly final abandonment of the TTC's trolley buses. We'll see what happens when the appropriate time comes around.
-Robert King
True, "celebration" is a lousy choice of words, "commemoration" is much better... thanks. At least Toronto still has cars, though... would that everyone else did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, fortunately the TTC still runs lots of stretcars and it is too bad that so many places abandoned.
Ignore the little rant, it's just damn fustrating that both the local fan club and the local museum are both such basketcases that events which are noteworthy at the very least, if not outright important, aren't commemorated or even mentioned.
-Robert King
One thing intrigues me: how did Baltimore arrive at a 5' 4" track gauge?
Required by the original franchise to the Baltimore City Pasenger Railway Company in 1859. The idea seemed to be "If we allow a private company to rip up the public streets to lay tracks on them, then the spacing of the rails should match the wheel spacing of the private carriages."
This idea seemed to be popular among city councils, and may be the reason for Pennsylvania Broad Gauge (5' 2 1/2").
The Baltimore gauge is actually 5 feet 4 and 1/2 inches.
Once the gauge was established, all street railway companies in Baltimore were required to use it.
Since when cable came to Batimore, the companies used their largest horsecars as cable trailers, and when electrification came, the largest horsecars were the ones first converted.
Once the gauge was established, it became the standard.
Thanks. I stand corrected on the gauge itself.
The Fire Brigades' Union Executive will meet tomorrow to decide whether to go ahead with their planned strikes. It is highly expected this will happen - the dates are 6-14 November, 22-30 November, 4-12 December, 16-24 December. This will for reasons of safety entail significant disruption on the London Underground:
BAKERLOO LINE: No service South of Waterloo (Lambeth North and E&C closed), Regent's Park and Edgware Rd also closed.
CENTRAL LINE: Holland Park, Queensway and Lancaster Gate closed.
DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAILWAY: Normal service.
EAST LONDON LINE: Wapping closed, Shadwell closed Rush Hours only.
JUBILEE LINE: Normal service.
MET/DIS/H&C/CIRCLE: Normal service.
NORTHERN LINE:
Edgware Branch: Hampstead and Belsize Pk closed, Chalk Farm closed Rush Hours only.
Barnet Branch: Tufnell Pk closed.
Charing X Branch: Mornington Crescent and Goodge St closed.
Bank Branch: Borough and E&C closed.
Southern End: Kennington closed.
PICCADILLY LINE: Gloucester Rd, Covent Garden, Russell Sq and Caledonian Rd closed, Holloway Rd closed Rush Hours only.
VICTORIA LINE: Normal service.
Many of these closures aren't too significant - no-one will miss Covent Garden or Edgware Rd (Bakerloo) - but I don't want to be around Elephant & Castle when this happens! Also, I wonder how short turn Northern Line trains will work with Kennington closed.
Don't tell me they'll be asking for your shoe size, among other things, if you call them.:) (If you're a Monty Python fan, you know what I'm referring to.)
Why is 57th the wide crosstown street when Columbus Circle and the park are at 59th?
And why did the IRT build a station at East 59th Street instead of East 57th Street?
I betcha Kevin Walsh would know something about this. Maybe it has something to do with the old reservoirs in Central Park?
The Second Ave. El had a stop at 57th and I think the 6th Ave el ran along 57th to meet up with the the 9th Ave. el.
The 6th Avenue El ran along 53rd Street to 9th Avenue and there was a branch that stayed on 6th Avenue and ended on 58th Street.
Also, 59th and 60th Streets (58th and 59th on the west side) had streetcar service, but 57th Street didn't.
Maybe 57th St is Haunted!
57th Street is a very classy street, somewhat like 5th Avenue. Maybe they wanted to keep streetcars off it, as they did 5th Avenue.
>>>I betcha Kevin Walsh would know something about this. <<<
Abrade the lamp and the genie appears.
I have also wondered why 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 72nd etc. are the main streets. I wonder how they got chosen. They're not exactly the most popular numbers, like 10, 25, 50, etc. I emailed ed Boland, the fyi guy in the Times and he didn't answer.
It might have something to do with the East and Hudson River ferries. But were the ferries there before the street grid was laid out and built?
Does anyone know why they picked these streets?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did the wide streets predate or postdate the Central Park transverses?
That might give us a clue about 79th and 86th -- but it doesn't account for 65th/66th, 72nd, 96th (the transverse is actually at 97th), or 106th.
A quick googling of "Manhattan" "street grid" 1811 indicates that, while the grid was laid out in 1811, the actual purchase of land by the city to create the rights of way for the streets didn't start till 1824, and only slowly worked its way uptown. The 104th (?) St block association says their street didn't actually exist till the 1880s.
Therefore the decisions of which streets were to be the wide ones weren't necessariy made at the beginning or all at once.
My guess is that the location of Broadway was a factor in the choosing of 14th, 23rd, 34th, possibly 42nd, and 72nd.
The city did have to pay for the land to build the streets. So if at some places an expensive house or two was already in the way, a wide street might have become too expensive.
Another totally wild guess. The UN used to be the stockyards. Maybe that's why 42nd is where it is rather than a few blocks north. Maybe ugly industry of some kind also made a wide 50th Street less useful.
Various postings do say that natural landmarks weren't an issue. They blasted away a lot of outcroppings to enforce the grid and make it easy to build houses.
>>>My guess is that the location of Broadway was a factor in the choosing of 14th, 23rd, 34th, possibly 42nd, and 72nd. <<'
That seems to make sense...14th crosses Broadway at Union Square, where it meets Park/4th Avenue Avenue. Interestingly, the name "Union Square" predates the street grid since the road which would later become Broadway and the Post Road met here. As the street grid was laid out, the Post Road fell into disuse and was demapped by the 1840s. The Union Square name remains.
23rd crosses Broadway at 5th Avenue.
34th crosses Bway at 6th Avenue.
42nd Street is interesting, it doesn't cross Bway at 7th. The two streets cross each other at a narrow angle and the intersection comes from 43rd-45th Streets. So 42nd street is an odd case.
Broadway crosses 59th Street at 8th Avenue and 72nd at Columbus (9th) Avenue. 57th Street's importance was probabaly an unrelated development.
Bway crosses Amsterdam (10th) Avenue at 106th Street and it indeed is wider than its brother streets. Above that the pattern fades. Interestingly, 125th Street west of Morningside wasn't always 125th. that section was previously known as Manhattan Street.
The only place where there seems to be an exception to the "wide streets where Broadway intersects an Avenue" rule is at 64th-65th Streets where Bway meets Columbus (9th) Avenue. Perhaps this cross street was deemed too close to 59th Street to deserve traffic, despite the 66th Street Transverse Road.
Necessary transit content:
You don't think of NYC cross streets as being shrouded under els. But 23rd, 42nd, 53rd and 110th as well as others all had els along them at some point.
www.forgotten-ny.com
IIRC, 34th Street did too, a spur of the 3rd Ave El to the ferry.
--Mark
>>That seems to make sense...14th crosses Broadway at Union Square, where it meets Park/4th Avenue Avenue. Interestingly, the name "Union Square" predates the street grid
since the road which would later become Broadway and the Post Road met here. As the street grid was laid out, the Post Road fell into disuse and was demapped by the 1840s.
The Union Square name remains. <<<
I should clarify...the Post Road was part of the Bowery north to Union Square then it was in Broadway's path NW to where 23rd street is now. There it took a northeast turn. That northern part of it fell into disuse.
The widening of Broadway btwn. 22nd and 23rd Strrets marks the point where the Post Road took its northeastern path.
There, I feel better now, except for the bronchitis and the coughing.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I should clarify...the Post Road was part of the Bowery north to Union Square then it was in Broadway's path NW to where 23rd street is now. There it took a northeast turn. That northern part of it fell into disuse. The widening of Broadway btwn. 22nd and 23rd Strrets marks the point where the Post Road took its northeastern path.
Interesting, where did it go after turning northeast? Was it a fork in the road with the current Broadway on the left and the "disused" side on the right?
The post road travelled a winding route along approximately 3rd Avenue.
1811 Street Grid Map
The above map goes up to 67th Street. All of the wide crosstown streets are already intact, it also shows two parks, the Parade (in the middle between 23rd and 34th) and the Market Place in Alphabet City covering the Tompkins Square Park area.
You can faintly make out the old roads to be removed, including Broadway above Union Square.
1807 Map
This map is easier to make out, but it shows only 14th, 23rd and 34th as future crosstown streets, above there, it goes by 10.
So in 1857 they already decided to make 42nd and 57th wide streets.
23rd and 34th presumably are based on the parade ground, which was already firmly established then. But why 42nd and 57th?
I meant in 1811 etc., etc.
The Parade Ground wasn't firmly established, it was a proposal for a park and was never executed.
Very interesting. Thanks for posting that. Actually, for the most part, the real alignment of Broadway (Bloomingdale Road) seems to have it's basic original alignment up to about Cathedral Parkway - 110th Street, where currently it basically takes over the route of West End Ave-11th ave, but the old map shows it's original alignment continuing west a bit more and then zig-zagging back and forth over the current Broadway (11th Ave on the map) before heading sort of northeast. The real alignment of the Bloomingdale Road (Broadway) seems to be lost north of 110th.
Traces of BloomingdaleRoad (Broadway)'s old path can be made out in Harlem. Both Hamilton Place and Old Broadway follow the route of the original road.
Generally speaking, older roads that defy overall street grids are there because there was substantial property along them--or big shots who wouldn't move when the time came to close the road.
I wish I knew the year(s) when Broadway was straightened to its present route in Harlem...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would think around 1900 when the IRT built their line up there.
"Broadway crosses 59th Street at 8th Avenue and 72nd at Columbus (9th) Avenue. 57th Street's importance was probabaly an unrelated development.
Bway crosses Amsterdam (10th) Avenue at 106th Street and it indeed is wider than its brother streets."
Broadway crosses Columbus at 66th and Amsterdam at 72nd. It merges with West End at 106th.
But the actual avenue crossings are a block or so off in some of those cases -- 24th, 71st, 107th. And given 72nd and 106th, why the seemingly arbitrary choices of 79th, 86th, and 96th, with gaps of 7, 7, 10, and 10, rather than (say) 80th, 89th, and 97th?
"Why is 57th the wide crosstown street when Columbus Circle and the park are at 59th?"
The street grid far predates the park. Perhaps the land from 57th to 59th would have cost to much because it was already built up, but there wasn't any need to make the S boundary of the park 72nd St.
"And why did the IRT build a station at East 59th Street instead of East 57th Street?"
Can't answer that one for sure, but it probably has to do with what they decided was reasonable spacing. It's probably linked to why there is no stop at 72nd. 42, 50, 57, 65, 72, 79, 86 may have been one more stop than they thought was needed.
"And why did the IRT build a station at East 59th Street instead of East 57th Street?"
Can't answer that one for sure, but it probably has to do with what they decided was reasonable spacing.
I guess the same reason they made a stop at 33rd street on the original IRT line instead of 34th Street - I guess it wasn't known which would be the major street? Although the street grid laying out the wider streets must have been in effect when they decided on 59th or 33rd instead of 57th or 34th.
A few years later when they did the southern extension on the west side line, they did choose 34th (even though Penn station is actually between 31 and 33rd Streets), but they still did choose 59th on the on the East Side extension at the same time.
NO.
At the time the original IRT was built, 34th Street was already built up as a wide crosstown street.
The reason a stop was built at 33rd probably has to do with the difficulty of building a stop along the Park Avenue Tunnel.
"The reason a stop was built at 33rd probably has to do with the difficulty of building a stop along the Park Avenue Tunnel."
In addition, Park and 34th is considerably higher in elevation than Park and 33rd, so the station would have been much deeper. That issue doesn't apply further west.
Correct, I didn't think of the Park Ave Tunnel, which is right there.
I wanted this thread to degenerate into a general discussion of why Manhattan crosstown streets are where they are. Why the 15 block gaps from 42 to 57, then 57 to 72, then 7 blocks to 79 and then 86?
Why are 14th, 23rd, 34th and 42nd the wide ones (9, 11, 8 blocks apart).
Don't tell me it's because of Broadway, because original plans called for the elimination of the Bloomingdale Road, and that doesn't explain 42nd and 57th.
Why the 15 block gaps from 42 to 57, then 57 to 72, then 7 blocks to 79 and then 86?
Why are 14th, 23rd, 34th and 42nd the wide ones (9, 11, 8 blocks apart).
If I were approaching this question with no foreknowledge whatever, I would consider:
What were the locations of aboriginal trails?
What physical properties might have encouraged or discouraged original street locations? (swamps, dense woods, streams, rock formations, valleys, passes)?
Where were the earliest stage or streetcar franchises?
Where were farm roads located?
What prominent individuals had interests which encouraged or discouraged development along particular corridors?
Some curiosities are easily answered. Why are there Brighton stations at both Beverley and Cortelyou Roads? The answer may not be totally obvious, but neither is it obscure.
What physical properties might have encouraged or discouraged original street locations? (swamps, dense woods, streams, rock formations, valleys, passes)?
That didn't seem to be too much of an impediment for the Manhattan Grid system though. They flattened hills, filled in ponds and streams, wen straight through vallies, and removed rock formations all to keep the grid system intact. (although there are some spots in upper Manhattan where they had to give in).
went straight through vallies
How stupid. "vallies". Where the hell did that come from? Of course I meant "valleys".
Some curiosities are easily answered. Why are there Brighton stations at both Beverley and Cortelyou Roads? The answer may not be totally obvious, but neither is it obscure.
OK. I'll bite. Why are these two stations so close together?
:-) Andrew
Some curiosities are easily answered. Why are there Brighton stations at both Beverley and Cortelyou Roads? The answer may not be totally obvious, but neither is it obscure.
OK. I'll bite. Why are these two stations so close together?
I believe because powerful business/real estate interests at Beverley and Cortelyou both wanted stations.
Avenue C was the more important road, with trolley service, while the Prospect Park South development wanted its own station at Avenue B, which had no trolley service and was not a main commercial street.
And one of the developers had family connections to the railroad.
Exactly.
They are close together (about 75 feet, i go there every day, my schools on cortelyou and east 9th)because they serve different neiborhoods, beverly the nicer, cortelyou everyone else- also most stations on the Q are close example: aves h, j ,and m.
Ditmas School? Intermdiate School? It was a brand-new Junior High when I went there. I also went to PS 139, which was old when I went there. You can see it in this picture:
Actually no, i goto school on east ninth between ditmas and cortelyou
Which school is that?
>>Which school is that?<<
Must mean Ditmas J.H.S. 62, as it was called back in the mid 60's when I went there. Graduated June 1967.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was at JHS62, also, Bill, right after it opened, 1957-1960.
I think Mike from Midwood was saying it wasn't JHS62 he went to.
Small world - I graduated from Ditmas in 1967 too!!!
Wow you went there? Me too went to Ditmas but I graduated back in 1998. I had no idea that a few bustalkers went and graduated from there :-)
>>> I also went to PS 139, which was old when I went there. <<<
And I suppose that is you on left, running to beat the tardy bell? :-)
Tom
No, I'm running to catch the Brighton train to Brighton Beach "on the hook." :)
Disagree. Neck Road and Ave U are close. Maybe Avenues J and H. But not the others.
--Mark
Maybe Avenues J and H [are close]
...illustrates how there are different ways to define "close." Because of the LIRR right-of-way, you have to walk a block-and-a-half over to E14 (Rugby Rd) at Avenue J and then back again to get station-to-station.
Compare to the "close" stations of 14 and 18 on 7th Avenue, where it is a straight line of wide sidewalk between the two.
It is more like 700 feet. There is only one block (for signals) between the two stations. Look at http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/R405.jpg to see how close they are. Also look at http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics2/nycsta25.jpg.
Even better. If it were only 75 feet between stations, then 1 car would be between the stations while the other 7 would be in the other station.
Nice shot!
Let's not forget that once upon a time the stations were not so close together as now. Five-car trains were run during the early part of the 20th century. The longer trains that ran later on required extension of the platforms. Hence the north end of Cortelyou and the south end of Beverley are closer together now than what they once were.
But the station houses are the same distance apart as always.
During the '50s there was talk in the newspapers that one of the two stations would be eliminated to "speed up" local service. When the TA extended the Brighton Line platforms for 10 car R-types in the '60s, a lot of railfans thought that the stations would be extended toward each other and connected so that Beverley and Cortelyou would be entrancess on a new station. Other than obvious logic, I don't know why we thought so--i.e., whether there was any firm plan.
Anyway, this obviously didn't happen.
You said not to mention Broadway, but it does seem to coincidently have a play in it. Where 14, 23rd, 34th, etc meet, you do have the wider streets. But if they did originally plan to eliminate what is now Broadway, who decided, and why, 23rd, etc should be a wide street? If they were planning to do it neatly, they should have chosen ever 10 blocks, or every 15 blocks or even some random number, like every 9 blocks. If the grid was made way before there was any kind of real development, which it was, I wonder why they did choose the wide streets the way they did, in seemingly no pattern.
Maybe because of the concentation of business along Broadway at Union Square(14th) Madison Square(23rd) Herald Square(34th) Times Square(42nd) and Columbus Circle(59th) all subway stops and 2-way streets from east to west, except 59th from 8th ave to 5th ave.
I think we've got a chicken and egg question here. Assuming a high concentration of business at those points, were the streets made wide for them, or did they locate where the streets were wide?
True, but I think 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, etc were made to be wider streets when they originally made the grid system in Manhattan in the 1800's. That was way before any of the businesses along Broadway were even around. I believe even 42nd Street was still farmland when they put the original Gtrand Central there.
Good points. I guess I was referring to the main streets as they related to turn of the century with the advent of the automobile and subway system.
Good points. I guess I was referring to the main streets as they related to turn of the century with the advent of the automobile and subway system.
First, I think the Abbreviation for Off Topic should be Off T, since OT could also mean ON topic.
Second, I'm sure a lot of you know where I got the 57 Varieties from, but does anybody know what Heinz 57 Varieties were? Surely they can't be making 57 different flavors of ketchup!
P.S. I know the answer
Heinz makes a lot more than just ketchup.
While riding a NY elevated train in 1892, Mr Heinz saw an advertising card for 21 styles of shoes. He liked the idea, got off the train at the 28th St station, and started planning his own advertising slogan,
He settled on Heinz 57 even though his products numbered more than 60 at the time.
Pickles, o porcine one... pickled pigs' feet not included :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nothing like the 'flava' of true green 'TA monkey oil' to liven up a salad, pasta or pizza. Everything flows out (egress) smoothly just like it went in...relieves friction of door panels too. CI Peter
Supposely "57" was a number that Heinz chose to promote how many types of ketchups they had. If there were 57 kinds, who knows? It was a promotional stunt in those days.
Actually, "Heinz 57" meant 57 varieties of canned beans ... aren't ya glad you're not downwind? :)
Fifty-seven varieties doesn't mean 57 varieties of ketchup, it means 57 varieties of food products in general. There are only three varieties of Heinz ketchup, regular, hot, and low-sodium, but there are far more than 57 varieties of Heinz pickles, Heinz sauces, Heinz soups, etc. In fact, if you count everything Heinz and all its divisions and subsidiaries make, there are something like 1,300 varieties, including 108 varieties of baby food, 60 kinds of pickles, and so on.
The number 57 has mystical significance to the Heinz company, but it has never had much to do with reality. The slogan was invented by the company's founder, Henry J. Heinz, in 1892 while he was cruising around on the elevated in New York one day. Whilst reading the car cards on the ceiling, his eye alighted on the slogan "21 styles of shoes." Heinz could recognize genius when he saw it. Cogitating briefly, he soon conceived the immortal words "57 varieties," whereupon he got off the train and set about plastering the nation with the now-famous pickle-plus-number logo. The one problem with this scheme was that at the time the company was manufacturing more than 60 varieties. However, Heinz stuck with 57, for what his biographer describes as "occult reasons."
Heinz, as may already be evident, was something of a character. He started off bottling horseradish in a little town near Pittsburgh in 1869 (ketchup did not arrive on the scene until 1876). He made a major selling point of the fact that he put his product in clear glass bottles, thus demonstrating that he did not adulterate his sauce with turnips or other false vegetables, as his competitors did.
Once Heinz hit on the notion of "57 varieties," he constructed a number of hideous advertising signs at various strategic locales around the country. One, which was six stories high, was located at 23rd and 5th Avenue in New York City and dazzled tourists with a 40-foot-long electrified pickle. Heinz also built an exhibition hall in Atlantic City on a pier that extended 900 feet out into the ocean; another monstrous pickle, this one 70 feet tall, perched heroically on the end.
After a few more demonstrations of this style of architecture, the citizenry became alarmed lest Heinz encumber every landmark in the Republic with giant pickles. When a rumor (unfounded, it appears) got out that he had purchased Lookout Mountain near Chattanooga, Tennesee, in order to scrape off the side and sculp a pickle of unprecedented proportions in the native granite, or whatever it is they have out there, there was a general uproar, with one partisan threatening to pickle Heinz 57 ways if he tried it.
The Heinz people are still quite attached to the number 57. The phone number at corporate headquarters in Pittsburgh is 237-5757, and the address is P.O. Box 57. One of their salesman was a player for the Pittsburgh Steelers at one time, and you'll never guess what his number was. It is enough to make you want to swear off ketchup forever.
I'm pickled tink with this story.
Here's another trivia question - do you know why the "57" is etched near the center of the ketchup bottle?
--Mark
I am very intrested in obtaining used items/memrobilia from the NYC Subway only. I live in NJ and go into the City often. I have visited the Store in Grand Central and found a few things there. Doe anyone know what is inside of the Times Square and Brooklyn Heights one? Does anyone know if they sell this stuff at the place where they dismantle the Redbirds/ Subway cars. Any help of where I can obtain these things will be apprciated! Thanks!
Brian Pawelko
bpawelko@comcast.net
Though nothing is listed right now, keep an eye on:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/materiel/collectsales/index.html.
And there is always eBay...
It sounded good until I read the "Please Note" section:
All sales are subject to $50.00 minimum processing fee.
How much do these things cost if the processing fee is a minimum of $50.00? When they used to hold the Tag Sale/Auction, you could buy signs, etc for as little as $10.00. Well, even if you think that the prices went up a bit in the last 10 years, how much could all this stuff cost if the processing fee alone is $50.00?
Try heypaul's apartment
Yea whats up with that I want some nice stuff but if its 50 alone I cant afford that. 50 bucks for what the whole subway car. jezze.
I'll sell ya da whole woiks for 25 smackaroos....how dat for ya...
Try Alan Zelazo at............ subwayal@aol.com
Drop him an e-mail and inquire what he might have for you. He usually auctions roll signs and other subway stuff on ebay.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would agree with that one, I've done business with Al on numerous occasions on stuff that I've purchased on e-bay.....Always professional, always a positive feedback.
Mark
How long can these els last? How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?
How long can these els last?
As long as they keep them in good repair, they can still last a long time. Over the last decade or two, most have them have been kept in fairly good repair, and on many of them, like the Broadway el in Brooklyn they have been redoing the stations (quite nicely also). The condition of most of the els are much better than they have been in years (although the Livonia El does look a bit 70's-ish in condition and could use some paint). They will get to the ones that need help.
How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?
"Ain't" going to happen. While at some far off date that our great great great great great granchildren may see, they may replace some of them with subway, open cuts or embankments are just not going to happen. I'd like to see them even try to put an embankement or open cut along Broadway/Brooklyn, Westchester Ave, or McDonald Ave, etc. That was only possible when Brooklyn was fairly rural place in the early part of the century. They could have built open cuts or emabnkements in some parts of the Bronx when they originally built the els there, as many of them were built through farmland, however they didn't, and it could never be done now.
Replacement subways, on the other hand are possible, but unlikely because there is no funding available, and it is probably more important to expand service to areas that have no subway service, than to replace perfectly usable els with subway. (That is one of the mistakes that were done replacing the Fulton El with the Fulton Subway in the 30's. The money they spent on that would have been much better spent somewhere else where they really need subway service like in many areas of Queens or Brooklyn where there is NO service).
And just look at 2nd Ave in Manhattan. They have been trying to build a much needed subway under that avenue since the 30's and it's still not there!
"How long can these els last? How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?"
What would be the impetus for doing that? They are well maintained.
The neighborhoods have adjusted to them. Open cuts would destroy the neighborhood by eliminating the busy shopping street underneath.
With proper maintenance and care, the els can last for at least another fifty to one hundred years. Thank goodness many were overbuilt late in the 19th and the early 20th centuries, so the structures continue to serve their users well.
Cases in point:
In NYC, the J train stretch between Cresecent Street and Alabama Avenue was built in 1893 when steam trains ruled, and is still in daily use. This is the oldest portion of the NYC subway system still in daily use - it predates the "official" subway opening (last week was the 98th anniversary) by nine years! On the IRT, the #2/#5 line from 149th Street to Tremont Ave. opened in November 1904, and the #1 above Dyckman street dates from 1906-1908. These lines are still in 24/7 daily use.
In Chicago, the famous Loop L was opened in 1897 and still is a key link in the CTA system, carrying hundreds of trains daily.
Well if they were to tear the els down (VERY UNLIKELY!), then this will cause problems in the long run, look what happened when they tore down the Jamaica el in the late 70's-early 80's, the Archer subway only goes to Parsons Blvd instead of 168 St plus Jamaica went into deep decline and now its resurging. The system is far too small for the amount of passengers who ride the system; 3 million+ every day and the system has gotten slower. They need to:
Restore lost express services
Build the 2 Av subway
Build lines to eastern Queens
Build a line to Co-op City
There are more improvements and expansions out there but these would be most beneficial but there is not too much or any funding to make these projects possible.
One el that should NEVER be torn down is the Flushing el. The el makes the 7 what it is today. All the els are in fine shape although the Livonia el needs a little "help".
"How long can these els last?"
It depends on the el and how it was constructed. Over the course of the NYCT system history, there has really been a wide range of construction quality. A case in point is the differences between the 2nd and 3rd Avenue els.
Many of the els appear to be in worse shape than they really are due to neglect.
"How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?"
This is unlikely for the forseeable future. While it would improve many neighbourhoods, the limitted funds available for transit will be directed to maintaining existing service and providing service to new areas first.
Matt
From what I can gather, 1435, 1437, 1439, and 1440 were destroyed in the Union Square wreck. I also read that 1431, 1432, 1433, 1434, & 1438 is running as an odd linked set. That leaves the question of what happened to 1436? Was it too destroyed at Union Square, or is it in storage? Does anyone know?
Next Question:
1369 and 1370 were destroyed in the Fordham Road wreck. What has become of 1366, 1367, & 1368? Are those cars still on the property? If so are they still servicable? If so, has any consideration been given to converting 1368 to an operating car with a full width cab? If so it could become one of the shuttle sets.
Now that the T/O list has expired, will the TA have a provisional opportunity available? Because the next test is next year and people probably won't be called until the following year.
By law they can hire provisonaly (unless there is somthing in the contract), will they do so? Who knows.
It takes awhile to train(and a lot of money too) to train a Train Operator. Would YOU do that, train someone who may not pass the test with a high enough score to keep (though if your in the title provisonaly and you score 100% they can take you no matter the one and three rule) once the list came out?
I wouldn't take the chance.
Sometimes provi is good and sometimes provi is bad. It depends upon how much you need a new job and/or that special position. Many Car Inspectors were hired one year before me by personal interview and NO test. I put in many hours of study to prove in an interview that I knew something about subway control systems for signals and car equipment...passed both tests NEVER having an interview. Got M/F 7-3 RDOs S/S to boot which I have kept. The CIs with one year more service HAD to take and PASS exam # 0051. The top thirty percent are now permanent...seventy percent remain provisional at this time and the handful that failed are still working. 'Last hired first fired' has not been implemented yet. Being at the bottom of the list may be chancy but with attrition rates, retirements, promotions and resignations, life on the bottom can look better. I agree with Lou but if you want the position and your present employment offers nothing, GO FOR IT ! I did. CI Peter
There is smething going on funny with that list. Look thru the archives and you will see that in the past it was extended twice in the same year (or at least announced twice in the Chief).
There are also people 'in the pipe' and in the hiring plan.
Also provisionals will likely come from existing employees not from off the street.
The list has officialy been retired ,check the chief archives no extension has been made.Also provi T/O's are risky but if it will keep off the streeters from paying their dues I am open for inhouse Provi.
In the issue of the Chief 2 weeks ago it said T/O list #9058 was extended for another year
The next list will be a stinky one anyway. In 2004 at least 100 jobs will disappear maybe 150. Many people with 22-25 years cashed out already with the military bonus. Plus the TA was not in a hiring mood 25 years ago so there may not be a big pool of retirees in the pipe. Even the V extension if it goes thru may not add that many jobs.
I was looking at the pictures of the tandy PCC cars, and i realized that the doors and windows seemed to align on their high platform PCCs, and their weird Boxy cars.
1. Were these boxy cars rebuilds of PCCs?
2. How was this done?
3. Could it be undone?
4. where are the origins of the PCCs?, (I read in places that there were washington DC cars there, but Boston PCCs are in some pictures)
5. How many pccs are there?
6. Where are they now?
Here's a webpage with photos on the late, lamented Tandy subway.
Semi-short answers to your questions:
1. Yes, they were. The original 1960's modifications raised the doors to high platform and bodies wrapped in decorative stainless steel. The cars were equipped with controls on both ends and airconditioned.
2. The original bodies were cut down to the frames and rebuilt with a new shell in the late 70's.
3. No, it cannot. The original upper body shells were dumpstered.
4. Most were Washington DC air-electrics. There were some Boston early air-electrics bought for parts and a pair of Chicago rapid transit cars that had their origins as streetcars bought for parts as well. One of the Boston cars was converted for Tandy service.
5. They were numbered up to 7, but I don't know how many operated at any one time, probably just two or three. It was pretty short run.
6. All cars, parts, and all hardware are in storage. Everything is also already spoken for by several concerns.
It's too bad they closed down in September, as Ft. Worth has a light rail plan underway, they might only end up using the Tandy tunnel.
For the first time, on this site, never published anywhere, a picture of the Rebodied ex-DC Transit in the buff!!
As you can see, it not possible to reverse the body back to its PCC disigned.
Phil Hom
BTW, this web site has some GREAT photos of the Fort Worth Operation from the mid 70's during the transition from M&O Subway, Dillard's MetroLiner, and Tandy Center Subway.
The Greenberg show was at the Expo Center in Pennsauken (South Jersey) this weekend. The West Jersey Chapter NRHS had a table to display (and try to sell) our books (the Chapter is into writing and publishing railroad history books), and to maintain a presence to attract new members. We also give out some freebies, such as the Chapter’s former monthly publication, Crew Caller. On Saturday shortly after noon our table was being manned by Frank Kozempel and others, and an older gentleman (seventy something) was leafing through the Crew Callers, when he exclaimed “My picture’s in here!”
The June 1991 issue featured a story titled “The Shrewsbury Shuffle”, about some tricky freight handling on the “Back Road” by the Pemberton Branch local freight train. The story was written by Frank Kozempel and was accompanied by photographs of Penn Central GE 44-tonner #9999 shifting the Agrico siding at Shrewsbury Road. The photos were taken by Frank on November 24, 1976.
The older man who found his photograph was the engineer, visible and identifiable in the cab of #9999. He and Frank had a most cordial conversation, replete with reminiscences of the “good old days”.
A few weeks ago I wanted to ride the subway from New Carrollton, MD to Georgetown (Wash, DC). The public timetable lists a train leaving at 8:38 p.m. I got to the station at 8:33 and the train pulled out 5 minutes early.
I wrote to customer service and got the incredibly stupid answer that timetables are merely advisory. Here's the exchange of messages.
(I'm also going to post this to bustalk since this answer also applies to buses.)
Michael
Dear Mr.
Thank you for your e-mail. The trains are not operated on a strict
timetable. Operators and customers use the timetable as a guide.
Again, as the Metrorail timetable states: "Times listed in this
timetable are approximate,..." The trains do not offer any exact arrival or departure times and the timetables are merely intended as a guide.
Sincerely,
Bob
Consumer Representative
Case Number: 15509
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Dear Mr.
I want to be sure what you're telling me. Are you saying the DEPARTURE
times from ORIGIN stations don't match the DEPARTURE times that are
given to operators? Are you saying operators are given one set of departure times and the public is given a DIFFERENT set of departure times? If what you say is true, then your Ride Guide is useless because it doesn't have the correct times. How can I rely on the ride guide to catch a particular train from an ORIGIN station?
CSVC needs to think some more about its position on timetables.
next move--a FOIA request for the INTERNAL timetable, 'CAUSE you KNOW they are FIXED. I mean, when a transit worker BIDS a job, it specs a schedule. It is IMHO a matter of the PUBLIC's RIGHT to Know, the Real times for at least whatever timepoints are used to "disciline/direct" employees.
Consumer Representative "Bob" isn't very skilled at "spin". Even Ari Fleisher could do a better job at spinning lies.
That's OK ... we all know who Bob is, and he routinely dispenses slack from his La-Z-Boy at the Church of the Subgenius (subgenius.com)
JR Bob Dobbs.....6955 USB
Yep, Bob's a ham too. :)
I don't think Bob is right. I find the Ride Guide times to be accurate, although in morning rush, the trains can be up to 3 minutes off schedule (with regular spacing). They also don't post pprinted schedules during rush hour, the RideGuide has them but don't use them, just assume the train will come every 2-4 minutes if you are on "shared trackage" and every 4-8 elsewhere.
I should have made clearer. It happened on a Saturday night where the headway is 15 minutes.
Michael
There could have been a need to send the train early, or you got a train running late. I don't think what happened to you was a regular occurance at all.
It probably the practice at DC Metro to send out a train ahead of its posted schedule to cover a gap in service due to previous delays. Remember we are talking about a subway line here - with frequent service, all trains making all stops, and lack of customer dependence on printed schedules. DC Metro is not a commuter rail with relatively infrequent service and trains that may make a unique pattern of specific stops. Unless the next train did not leave until say 8:48, this complaint is really petty. If a train leaving 5 minutes early is the biggest problem anyone has had in the last week, then that person has no problems. As my now-grown children used to say, "Chill!"
Your answer is reasonable (of course I don't know if it's correct in this case).
Bob's is not.
Thank you for the kind words!
How about Bob offering:
"What the hell do you want for your $2? Now please hang up, I got other idiots (I mean, customers) to talk to. JeezuZ..."
:0)
while during 'base day' timings I might agree, from a look at WMATA's web site, the headway in question is 15 minutes. Leaving 5 min early is rider hostile in my view.
This explanation makes no sense. A revenue train was sitting the station before I arrived at the platform. (I could see it from the parking lot.)
After 8:38, the next train is 8:53. It WASN'T a gap train. The operator left early. In the unlikely event it was a gap train, the early departure opened another gap. You can't close a gap by opening another gap unless you use an extra train. There WASN'T an extra train.
Did it ever occur to you that I was trying to make a connection to a bus that only runs once a hour? NO!!
And since the next scheduled train was 8:53, which is later than the "8:48" you quote above, I guess it WASN'T petty by your standards.
Thank you for agreeing with me.
Michael
Washington, DC
If the 8:23 train was not running for some reason, you have a 30 minute gap between Orange Line trains. This way, there was a train at 8:08, 8:33 (approx), and 8:53, resulting in gaps of 25 and 20 minutes, instead of 30 and 15, especially important for passengers going to Vienna. Also, the operator can not leave early, the switch will not be set until it is time to go.
I don't think your answer about the switch is correct. The operator keys up the train and the switch will set for the correct direction unless central has the current of traffic set for New Carrollton, in which case the arriving train will get priority over the departing train. But then, that would only apply if the arriving train has to cross over to come into the station on the empty track. (I'm reluctant to use track numbers because I'm not sure of the numbers.)
Michael
... Ouch. I've ready every message, BTW. That sounds nothing like what Metro would do. However, I do believe you.
I guess now I know who the better company is between WMATA and SEPTA. NEVER IN MY LIFE have I known SEPTA trains to depart early. Bus routes, yes, but never the trains. I also have never had reason to complain to SEPTA, and the one time I did write them, while they didn't follow my suggestion (at first), they didn't spout a bunch of bullcrap about what they were trying to do. Just gave the facts, and let themselves learn their lesson.
Judging by what you've said, WMATA doesn't give a rats ass about their customers at all, if they go so far as to condone early departures. It's forgivable to be late, but not early, and certainly not in areas of limited headway.
I was on a babylon local today and the train broke down about a mile or so before valley stream, then was pushed to valley stream and terminated there due to brake problems,
which yard do eastbound trains goto?
There is a layup track at the east end of the station which is governed by Valley Tower. Lots of West Hempstead trains terminate there as shuttles, and use it. Also, an occasional Far Rockaway train might make its way there, also for shuttles to Valley Stream.
As you mentioned, the overnight Far Rock - Valley Stream shuttles also use the layup track. The one westbound train that originates in Valley Stream doesn't use the layup track. It comes in empty from the west, stops in the station to pick up passengers for about 5-10 minutes and then reverses back west to Penn.
That I know already. It used to go as train 2825, then go back to Jamaica from Penn Station light, then go back as train 1303 which used to be a Penn connection for what was formerly train 617 from Port Jeff. Not that train terminates at Hicksville, and goes back to Port Jeff from there. This train also comes out of one of the two trains from Westbury in the AM, to which I believe is train 2401.
There is a large yard just east of Babylon Station on the West Islip border. It can be seen from Rte 231.
There is a large yard just east of Babylon Station on the West Islip border. It can be seen from Rte 231.
Or from a train on the Montauk line.
i passed it today, and saw only one track branching off the main line.
is it true that the trains in both directions use one track????
Yep. It's single track the whole way.
There IS a second track at the West Hempstead terminal, but the headways and length of the track (about 5 miles) are such that single-track operation is feasible.
The stations are: West Hempstead, Hempstead Gardens, Lakeview, Malverne, Westwood, .... (Valley Stream, etc.)
wayne
Yup, quite a few lines are only one track. In addition to the West Hempstead Branch, the Montauk Branch is only one track from east of Sayville all the way to Montauk - almost 60-70 miles. Ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson Branches also have a lot of one track sections. They use passing sidings to bypass trains coming from the opposite direction. On the Montauk branch they are near some of the stations, like Mastic-Shirley. On the Port Jefferson Branch, the passing sidings are some of the stations themselves.
Just to add a few:Hempstead Line between Garden City and Hempstead including the Country Life Press Station.The Oyster Bay Branch N/O Glen Cove Parts of the Port Washington BranchThe Greenport Branch (although you did say the Ronkonkoma Line which this is an extention of)The line that branches off the Ronkonkoma Branch in Bethpage and goes south to Babylon and points east There might be others that I'm not aware of.
"The line that branches off the Ronkonkoma Branch in Bethpage and goes south to Babylon and points east."
This is the Central Branch - no stations, diesel trains only, but does connect the Main Line to the Montauk Branch.
I know, I was just listing it as one of the single tracked lines.
The Long Beach branch is single track across the Reynolds Channel Bridge (between Island Park and Long Beach).
CG
I had a feeling there was a single tracked section of the Long Beach Branch but since I wasn't sure I didn't mention it.
It's not very long -- probably less than 1/2 a mile, but it does create something of a bottleneck at times -- not enough to double track the bridge when they replaced it a few years back, though.
CG
Ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson Branches also have a lot of one track sections. They use passing sidings to bypass trains coming from the opposite direction.
Most of the Ronkonkoma line east of Farmingdale is single-track. That's pretty amazing considering how busy the line is.
It's only about five miles long and the service pattern is such that any train that enters the branch EB at Valley Stream has exclusive use of the branch. There are no passing sidings enroute. Once an EB train reaches West Hempstead, it normally turns for the next WB from W Hempstead to Valley Stream, and again is the only train operating on the branch.
Single track RR branches are quite normal in most parts of U.S. and Canada. Between passing sidings, signals, and strict operating rules, there is virtually no danger of a collision between trains going in opposite directions.
there is a hotel on the end of the line / the west hempstead station
anyone here ever stayed there ?..it looked ok to me ...( oh well )..
this hotel on the end ot the lirr station west hempstead .....
has to be better than the hempstead -- " no so quality inn""
which was run better when it was a best western hotel on clinton st.
in hempstead ...
i would not reccomend any one stay in that hell hole there !!
by no means !!
I think the hotel you are referring to is being used as temporary (emergency) housing.
wayne
i do not think so ....well, the sign said it is a hotel with rooms
for rent like nay other hotel / motel
...
however i should have got a phone number and business card there !
i did like how close it was to the west hempstead lirr station ...
the quality inn at 80 clinton street in hempstead sucks since it was
dropped by the best western hotel chain ( much better back in 2000 )..
..
Baaad area, that's for sure!
John, what's wrong with that area, other than the color of the locals skin?
Well the main thing wrong with that area is it's high crime rate and delapidation.
How does the crime rate in West Hempstead (or downtown Hempstead for that matter -- I'm not sure which area you're talking about) compare to other areas?
What makes you say that the areas around those two hotels are dilapidated?
How does the crime rate in West Hempstead (or downtown Hempstead for that matter -- I'm not sure which area you're talking about) compare to other areas?
What makes you say that the areas around those two hotels are dilapidated?
The area around the end of the West Hempstead line is a rather uninteresting commercial zone with little to see, but it's not a dangerous area in any way.
I was a little surprised about that that comment also. I never found West Hempstead to be a bad neighborhood at all. Not particularly pretty near the station, but far from being a dangerous neighborhood.
i was saying that the quality inn at hmpstead on clinton street has terribl management
it was owned by th best western hotels back in 2000
was an excellent hotel back then !!
only 2 blocks away from the lirr ...
i was saying that the quality inn at hmpstead on clinton street has terrible management
it was owned by th best western hotels back in 2000
was an excellent hotel back then !!
only 2 blocks away from the lirr ...
It aint pretty near the station and I always see alot of hobos walking around. West Hempstead, the town which is a bit west of there is quite nice though. I remember seeing alot of kosher resteruants when I rode the N32 down Hempstead ave.
I never got past the White Castle right at that station to eat anywhere else.
I can't forget it either, I locked my keys in my car at that White Castle when I was railfanning the West Hempstead and Hempstead branches about 10 years back! Luckily I didn't realize it until after I ate, or I would not have enjoyed my lunch. Luckily though, I was able to pry one of the windows open.
I actually remember when that White Castle actually had waitresses that went to your car. They attached a tray to the window and you paid them there. (no they weren't on roller skates) Actually the White Castle was a little further west than it is now, near where the IHOP is. There was still a railroad crossing on Hempstead Tnpk (and Hempstead Av) in those days. The White Castle was just W/O the track. By the way, the building that Shopper's Village is in was S. Klein in those days.
P.S. I've been carrying an extra set of car keys in my pocket for years to avoid what happened to you. And of course ever since I started carrying the extra keys I never had to use them!
Drifting off topic a bit... many years ago, when our children were small, we stopped at a friend's house (in rural North Carolina) intending that I would simply drop a couple loaves of fresh bread off (she was recovering from surgery) and head on our way. She was doing much better and invited us in, so I went back to the car, switched it off (leaving the keys in the ignition, as always), and gathered up the older children while Mary got our youngest out of his car seat. In the process, Mary or Jr. apparently managed to bump the electric lock button, and also left her purse in the car, so ALL THREE SETS OF KEYS (mine plus the two she carried) were now locked inside. Fortunately, it was a simple matter to get a bent coathanger inside and trip the electric lock button again.
All of our cars now either require some form of positive action from outside to lock the doors or have a numeric combination pad that will let you unlock the vehicle without the key - no more lockouts!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Slim Jim" ... don't leave home without it. :)
Unfortunately, with most new cars, slim jims don't work anymore. And some makes, especially GM cars, are extremely difficult for locksmith picks. And even if you don't leave home without a slim jim, where are you going to store it where it won't get locked in the car too? Take it from me, an extra set of keys in your pocket will not only open your locked car but because of Murphy's Law will insure against you ever locking your keys in the car in the first place.
A problem I've had with several cars is locks being frozen on cold days. And although the tubes of anti-freeze lock spray (for want of a better name) works very good only if you're at home and have the stuff in the house. It doesn't really work too well if you keep it in the glove compartment.
As a side note, whenever I got a police call for keys locked in a car the first thing I asked was "have you tried a rock?" :)
Hahahahahahaha ... Yeah, figgered I'd get a lecture. Heh. Keys in the pocket at all times IS a viable rule, although breaking into most cars upstate involves little more than poking your finger through the plastic bag doubling as a window. :)
"Slim Jim" ... don't leave home without it.
I like the extra-spicy ones myself, the ones with Tabasco sauce.
Heh.
>>> All of our cars now either require some form of positive action from outside to lock the doors or have a numeric combination pad that will let you unlock the vehicle without the key - no more lockouts! <<<
My car has one of those numeric pads, so I keep a house key in the car, since my problem is getting locked out of my apartment, which locks whenever the door is closed. I usually pat my trouser pocket just before closing the door to be sure I have my keys, but there have been a few times (usually if I am in a hurry) when the patting and the slam of the door coincided.
Tom
didnt churches chicken replace that location ?
No, like a lot of White Castle/Church's Chicken locations, they share the same store. By the way, years ago there was a Wetson's on the South side of Hempstead Av by the station.
I think there's a Wendy's in West Hempstead, not too far from the train station.
they merged
Is Church's chicken any good? Or is it like that KFC junk? I wish Kenny Rogers was still around, they had the best chicken around.
As for the Best Roast Pork award, that goes to Szechuan express in Greenvale.
OK, now I'm getting hungry. Can't wait to have it again tomorrow. :-)
Mmmm, chopstick lickin good
Last February or March, my wife was going to the wake for a distant relative in West Hempstead. We decided that I'd take the train to West Hempstead station, she'd pick me up around 7 pm after leaving the wake, and we'd go to dinner (Hunam in Levittown, terrific food). I got to the station, such as it is, a bit before 7, only to have Carole call me on my cell phone and tell me that her car was blocked in the funeral home's parking lot. Once she did get out, she had trouble finding the station - the person at the wake who gave her directions ended up directing her to Hempstead Gardens. She wasn't able to get to pick me up for about 45 minutes. Let me tell you, there must be few more boring things in the world than to have to kill 45 minutes around West Hempstead station! It didn't help that the jacket I was wearing was woefully inadequate for the evening's cold temperatures.
At least we ended up having a very good meal at Hunam.
Well to me, the area where the West Hempstead station seems more like Hempstead Village, once you're on Woodfield Rd or Hempstead ave heading SW, there is a large improvement.
Also the power lines around the West Hempstead station are the oldest I ever seen. It doesn't help any.
If you think those are old, you should see the ones up around Country Life Press station! Those are so old, the wooden poles have aged to grey!
wayne
LIPA has the oldest poles around it seems. Well I guess that's why the power goes out so much.
Also the power lines around the West Hempstead station are the oldest I ever seen. It doesn't help any.
I think those power lines follow the route of the old line when the Railroad used to continue and run from West Hempstead to Mineola. I wonder if those power lines were there when the tracks were still there.
Bob Andersen once sent me this old picture of the crossing at Hempstead Tnpk which I posted HERE. You can see a telophone pole on the left of the pic which would be the South side where IHOP is now.
What a great old picture! It is interesting that they abandoned that old line. It seems like it would have been handy, even if just for reroutes, or loop service. I believe the LIRR still owns the overgrown ROW, but not sure.
Thank Bob Andersen, it was his picture.
By the way Jacove Liquors, although in a new building slightly east of where they are in the pic, is still there. Those tudor style buildings are still there too.
I think I got the picture from Art Huneke
WOW! Steam on the West Hempstead branch, next stop Country Life Press.
I wonder when that was taken, had to be the 40s or 50s. I remember seeing ONE TRAIN cross there, this was in 1960 IIRC, they had stopped revenue service before then, so it may have been a non-revenue move. The train was grey MP54 type cars and had owl windows in front. I remember it clearly even to this day. We had been shopping at S.Klein and the train just happened by.
wayne
Yes the do follow the ROW, and I wouldn't be suprsied if they were the original poles. The picture for November in my LIRR calander has a shot of the RR from Tuckahoe rd back in the 60s, and you can see in the left the wide T-arm poles that still remain in the LI Power system today.
Many poles are in terrible shape today due to their age, many warped and leaning. I thought when LILCO became LIPA things would change. Guess not. :-(
what are you comparing it too?...Sea Cliff?...have you ever walked down Glen Cove Ave past the housing projects on the hill that abutts Sea Cliff?...gee....maybe that's what you are comparing it too. Hempstead for the most has had very few shootings, compared to Roosevelt. And beside...I am sure you have gone through the Hempstead bus terminal at night..right?...do you need a body guard when you past through there?...lets get real....Hempstead is not like South Jamaica.....ok?
I've been through the bus terminal at night, and I feel fairly safe because it's busy. I never see many people around that West Hempstead LIRR station.
That area on the "hill" on Glen Cove ave in Glen Cove is pretty bad, yeah it's worse than W.Hempstead LIRR for sure. That hill looks like the S.Bronx easily. I hate going by there, but sometimes I don't have a choice (my doc's office is near there).
No, Hempstead is no South Jamaica. In alot of ways, there has been more improvements to Hempstead than Glen Cove, like that brand new shopping center they opened up on the west side.
Hempstead has alot more going for it, with LIRR electric service near by, and plenty of bus and road access. Glen Cove is too far gone for any fixing. Not to mention it's NIMBY ville.
Talking about the Hempstead Bus Terminal (and no, I won't bring it to BusTalk, so there!) who remembers the old terminal a block away? Nedicks was inside, not to mention the best pizzaria I've ever been to. The smell of their pizza actually complimented the smell of the exhaust of the Hempstead Bus Company's Macks! And for trivia sake who can name all of the pre-MSBA/LI Bus companies that operated out of the terminal?
I can only remember The Bee Line, which is today's N6. Bee Line had lot of other routes too besides N6. N2 ran right past our house.
wayne
They NEVER went to the old terminal. The Bee Line Hempstead to Jamaica run (precurser to the N-6) terminated at Little Main Street, a street that doesn't exist anymore near the end of Main Street. There were usually 3-4 buses waiting there so you knew how many fishbowls you can turn down to get a genuine Ralph Kramden old style GM. After getting on the bus it would turn into a big bumpy dirt lot which would raise a lot of dirt and the bumps would be so great in the rear seat of an old style GM you might hit the ceiling, then would make a right onto Franklin, a left onto Hemp Tnpk, and make the first stop at the Phone Company Bldg. To keep this on topic for SubTalk the bus would be signed "Jamaica Subway".
Let me see if I could remember some of the pre-MSBA companies at the old terminal:Hempstead Bus Company-East Meadow, Hicksville, Freeport & Baldwin routes-Macks & Fishbowls
Stage Coach Lines-Farmingdale, Levittown, Bethpage runs
Jerusalem Av Bus Company-ugly brown no rear door old style GM's to Bellmore, Massapequa, etc. Same company as Harran Transportation which then ran school buses but today runs fancy Atlantic City buses
Schenk Transportation (sp)- mostly North Shore routes to Glen Cove, etc. Also ran the parking lot shuttles at Aqueduct & Belmont
Hendrickson Transportation- don't remember where they went, I only remember they were at the last stalls in the terminalThe Hempstead Bus Company was the only LI company that had Macks.
I believe the Stop 20 Diner, near the corner of Hempstead Tpke. and Meacham Ave. was named after the stop number of the Bee line route.
It's called the "Courtesy Hotel", phone number is 516-485-2000.
I have never been inside it, but it has the reputation of being a dump. I have been inside the Hempstead Quality Inn / Best Western / Holiday Inn recently and share your observation about the decline.
Your next choice for a relatively inexpensive, safe and clean hotel in Nassau near an LIRR station might be the Best Western in Massapequa Park.
CG
Another inexpensive motel near an LIRR Station is in Westbury behind Nathans on Old Country Rd. (near the Source Mall) The motel is on Taylor Av. It used to be called Black's Raceway Inn but has new owners and a new name which I don't recall. Although I haven't been there for about 12 years, (it was for temporary lodging when I got lucky!) I recall it was inexpensive (about $60 a night) and clean, although no-frills. Its less than a 1/2 mile walk down Post Av to Westbury Station.
Loads of malls in the area too!
May I also suggest the Floral Park motor lodge, on Jericho Turnpike in Bellerose, a ten-minute walk to the Floral Park LIRR station.
wayne
One big advantage to staying at the hotel in West Hempstead is if you get an urge gor White Castles in the middle of the night its right across the street!!!
I've stayed there a few times,and I dont have a problem with it or the station.
anybody have the real dirt on that hotel next to the west hempstead
station ?? is it in operation ?? who runs it anybody ever stay
there ?
I spotted this graffiti on a northbound C train last night, around 9.30 at 145st. Of note is that the scrawled message - 'fair contract' - was placed SPECIFICALLY over the MTA logo along the entire length of the train. Only one or two cars did not have their logos 'tagged' over.
Smells like an unsatisfied MTA employee to me.
Or someone who wants you (and everyone else) to think its an employee.
i doubt it. graff writers don't bother much with subways these days, and the lettering and 'handwriting' has no graffiti stylism (if that's even a word). If it were an actual graffiti artists that did it, he/she is either pulling a really good, well planned prank, or drugged out of their minds and not able to write straight...
'Inside job.' We had a Redbird R33 pair in for inspection painted all over in white, 'If You Me Save Me...HUG a Redbird.' Quite a stir.
CI Peter
I thought Salaam went back home? :)
This was at least four months ago.
Then he's got a solid alibi. :)
i don't buy it. WHERE'S THE PROFF!!!!
(sorry, i couldn't stop myself... heh heh !)
Heh. I'd go with just the cirumstantials. If Salaam were to tag a redbird, there would have been "railfan window" somewhere in the slogan. There, run rings around you logically there. :)
that or 'photography' mentioned in the mix...
Maybe it was SeveN :0) heh heh heh!
(why i find all this so humorous is beyond me... )
Nah, I think SeveN's gone straight on us ... anybody seen Mayor Rudy? :)
In Maryland yesterday stumping for our Republican gov candidate plus an apprearence in the 2nd Congressional District where the GOP is behind in the polls. Then it's on to Florida to stump for Jub Bush.
Did Rudy have his Reichsbunker hunny in tow to demonstrate that fine fundamentalist moral fiber the repubs claim to have a liplock on? (like Newtie, "do as we SAY, not as we DO?") :)
Don't know, the local media didn't bother with the "important" stuff, just the political drivel.
The local DEMs are taking heat for training 100 or so folks to be poll watchers, in violation of a Maryland law dating to the 1970's. Mucho backpedaling went on today.
As zero hour approaches the TV is overrun with political ads of everybody running for local and House seats. Also for us, several "Unavalable" phone calls each and every day, many for pol's not in my district. However, many of these go bye-bye without ever touching my ear or answering machine, thanks to a liitle device called a Tele-a-Zapper, which tells the automatic computer dialler that my number is disconnected. Cuts the telemarketers off at the knees.
We're registered as "unenrolled" which means that every anklebiter pander bear in the district has been climbing the hill to seek out the sage of the gurus up here, begging and pleading for us to vote for the candidate of (their) choice. For their amusement, we have the "Tom Ridge Homeland Security Light Festival" burning in the atrium, so they can play the "what is your quest? What is your favorite color? What is TODAY'S color?" ...
We'll vote for the candidate of our choice who has been OUT to our house. Paturkey's a no show, H Carl was. Hmmm. If Golisano shows up though, we'll sell. :)
>>> The local DEMs are taking heat for training 100 or so folks to be poll watchers, in violation of a Maryland law dating to the 1970's <<<
No poll watchers? I thought they had just outlawed armed poll watchers wearing white hoods. What prevents the ballot boxes from being stuffed? If everyone believes all the pols in Maryland are so squeaky clean that it is not necessary to watch the polls they are certain to be disillusioned one of these days. If you are really trusting, you can get a "vote by mail" system like Oregon has.
Tom
I used the wrong term (serves me right for typing too fast), what Maryland law has prohibited since the 1970's was the practice of paying people to get voters to the polls by paid GOP or DEM people who would get the voter to cast their vote for the party's candidate.
We have poll judges, who are paid by the local election boards and who run the polling places and make sure everything is on the up-and-up.
>>> what Maryland law has prohibited since the 1970's was the practice of paying people to get voters to the polls by paid GOP or DEM people <<<
That sounds like a "get out the vote" campaign. As long as the voter goes into the booth by himself there should be no harm. Why was it made illegal?
In the 1964 election (the one where we elected the peace candidate rather than the one who would lead us into war) I was a volunteer walking the precinct in a heavily Democratic area from 5:30 to 7:30 P.M., stopping at each house and asking if the person answering the door and all voters in the household had voted and pointed out the need to elect our candidate. If they had not voted, I told them where the polling place was and asked if they needed a ride. If they wanted a ride, I would call HQ from their phone (no cell phones then) to have someone come by with a car to take the voter(s) to and from the voting place. We had no guarantee of how they would vote, but if the person answering the door started raving like Sea Beach Fred, no offer of a ride to the polls would be tendered.
To me, that seemed like fair campaigning and still does. Although I was a volunteer, I do not see the harm of paying someone to do what I did (they did give us free sandwiches and soft drinks at HQ), or paying the guy using his car to transport people.
Tom
WE are going to get a 'fair contract,' it's just some won't see it as such because they have been out of or had not worked in private industry. So they mark up trainsets and make everyone look bad.
Conspiracy theories abound in TWU 100.
Its stupid, MTA employees degrading their own system and then they wonder what they choose off the Street T/O's and other positions. They are just proving how stupid they are and reasons why the MTA should resort to more off the street people.
My crew is all 'off the street.' We work harder and longer, fix more than anyone else, even get more overtime because we salvage the Redbirds. 'Timers' hate use and chastise us because of our 'private industry ways' but I am always learning and I am accepted by them now.
Only our Deputy Superintendent and Supervisors give the crew praise for what we have learned and able to do in just one year, forgiving mistakes that could not have been encountered and learned about in such a short time period. OTS does not always work...45 of 50 T/Os had major incidents of record and the whole class was sent back to SubSchool. CI Peter
45 of 50 in which 34 no longer work with us .And Juice please get a grip I have no doubt that you are a great employee but I hope you realize those redbirds you brag about saving would of been on the road and in great working condition IF YOU NEVER WERE HIRED.
Why do you think the graffie is not from a T/O or C/R or someone that are from off the street. Are you saying that this new contract won't efects them as much as the one who came up thought the ranks to get to were we are now. Is the TA going to put some wording that states that anyone from off the streets will get anything they want becouse they came thought a different route to get hear. If the TA cuts anything from the new contract it will effect all of us the same dame way.
I was tolled by a pasager on Saturday that we don't deserive anything because the signs were programed for Rockaway parkway instead of Broadway Juction because of the G.O. on an R143. I told him that I hope when he ask his boss for raise or anything extra in benafits, that his boss tell him NO. Because he made a misstake on something and he was not worthe of anything and that he is going to get something cut out of his Benfits.
I know that poeple like this will cry foul if we go on strike, but we need to do what it take to keep from being steped on by the Hire Ups. Don't get me worng, I don't think that it's right to do this to the trains or anything eles in the system for that matter.
So think before you posted anything this bull sh-t that says that the worker who are from within the system are wrose then the ones from off the streets Remeber that all TA worker came off the streets before geting the jobs they are in now. Just that some of them stood were they started by choice or for other reason.
Robert
>>> Of note is that the scrawled message - 'fair contract' <<<
There is precedence for this type of graffiti. The first graffiti I saw on subway cars (as opposed to mustaches drawn on advertizing posters) was "8/40" (extra credit for those who remember what it meant) in chalk, or just traced in the surface dirt in 1947 when Mike Quill was being accused of trying to bankrupt the city.
Tom
>>> "8/40" (extra credit for those who remember what it meant)<<<
8 hour workday, 40 hour workweek.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> 8 hour workday, 40 hour workweek <<<
You are correct, and for those of you who do not appreciate the TWU, remember that when Mike Quill organized the union in 1934, the typical motorman worked 11.5 hours each day, 7 days a week.
Tom
Rather than performing a ridiculous act like this, the employees could actually do something worthwhile if they think they're getting screwed. No offense, but...
for 'bearing' with me today. 'Trackworker' was not the title I expected today but the work was healthy and the results 'positive in my face.' Just don't leave me hanging to get my 'feed bag' at lunchtime albeit I eat all day on the job...donuts and water are NOT CED cuisine. I had a very good day and expect me back. CI Peter
Wowsers ... they hijacked YOU TOO for the chain gang? Well, now you have actually gotten the experience to be your very own Roger. :)
I did a full day Saturday but I told the track superintendant that I was only helping Sunday until my brother showed up. 3 hours on a 2nd day of track work and my body is screaming today.
Good man. Did you undo the 'work' of 'Mr. Bizzario' (spiked tie but minus a plate?).
39 ties were replaced between the two days. All on riverside curve so that meant the guard rail had to be removed (Fri) and put back (assume Monday).
Sorry to say, that's something I ain't got the back for anymore myself. Too much bending over in state service for too many years, now my bod naturally assumes the position but can't get out of it. :)
And we're not talking about climbing onto step plates on R-1/9s, either, right?:)
No, THAT would be a "step UP" ... moo. :)
I think it was 8 or 9 on Saturday which made a good dent in the planned job. We also had some folks from Baltimore stop by, just to say HI. They had jealous eyes about our little track machine. That plus the rented compressor made us much more productive.
I too was very tired Saturday night. Spent some time Sunday soaking the tar out of my jeans.
That 'tie clencher is a Godsend and if I had been shown the 'spool lever process' (yes I do hydraulics too) a lot of bad ties would have been missing by the time everyone came back...I do not operate unknown machinery without some instruction save what I put together in my NJ acreage. The little green service vehicle was cute and the seating was warm...we're getting R33s now with new trucks/group boxes that are 'scrap materiel.' Maybe the legend of a CI in CI who tested his trucks by mounting a seat on top and contacting the third rail with a 'chicken stick' is not so far fetched. Of course, if the shoe beam contact shoe is used on one side, the other WOULD NOT BE A STEP!!! BTW: Weeks Barge loading once again at 207th. CI Peter
Peter, just to add to Mr. T's post I must say it was nice to see that two or three of the Balitmore crew lending a hand in the trackwork for a short bit. We couldn't really ask them to get too dirty since they were merely 'passing through'. But I do have photographic evidence of them becoming gandy dancers....I hear you got your first experience of 'dancing' the BERA way yourself, yesterday. Congrats!
Was Jeff there assisting you and Mr. Young?
With 4 operators working/volunteering today on an extra cold day there was a lot of free time between runs. And although the slide show and the Harry Reasoner tape are both quite good after seeing them for the 12,000th time you get tired of them. So to pass the time I started reading the entries in the "Visitor's Comments" book.
The last entree, on todays date stated:
"I really liked the conductor, is he single?"
Now that is plain torture! Which of the four of us did she mean? (hoping that it was a she!) Is my newly shaven head that irresistable or did she mean one of the others? Was it really Karen in the gift shop as a joke? Or Headlights? And which girl was it if it was a passenger? This is driving me nuts.
Gee, I hope my wife doesn't read this!! :)
Jeffrey: do you shave your head often?? Does it look good?? If I shave my head and do an inspection where my safety helmet will not fit, am I losing some protection?? Should I paint my scalp BLUE??
Had a wonderful but tiring day today...we changed out 39 ties. CI Peter
Were you part of the crew at the Quarry Trestle? I didn't envy you guys being out there in the cold all day. However I must admit that I drove 90 miles to East Haven just to get the chance to operate to Short Beach, NOT the Quarry Trestle!!! :)
Check the board Jeff, you will see when they need operators. The superintendant called a few to keep them from coming since it was a slow day (no charters).
I know they need operators for Nov 30th, the first Santa Day.
Nov 17th will be few because opeartors stay over from the anual meeting as well (sometimes 7 operators that day).
It is the head.
Sarge, you sure that guys named is Headlights or Headlice? :)
Yeah, that entry could've been a gag. Particularly if there is no name/address, etc. next to the entry.
The Branford Dating Service, what a concept !
We'll get the Board to spend a little seed money & watch what happens.
Just think of it, we'll have to institute car pooling to accommodate them all. Only trolleys with longitudinal seats ... boys on the left, girls on the right. After dark romantic rides for couples only.
Ring Ring ... that's the sound of the cash register < G >
1602 during daylight...775 thereafter for couples only!!! >G<
;-) Sparky
Toot toot !
One little catch ... any excursions would require adding a car or two since as we ALL know, all the action's in the lead car and it ain't gonna work unless there's a second car for the terminally shy. :)
Extra sections is our speciality A-N-D those that go out last, come back first. We'll have to talk to Dear Abby about this.
Kind of a new twist on "the last shall be first and the first shall be last".:)
Father Selkirk is just as capable of blessing an entire train as a piddly cab. Ohm. Ohm. Watt. Amp. :)
I got a look at all the new mosaic work at the 28th Street Station on the BMT Broadway line. It is quite colorful, quirky and funny. Here's a couple of the mosaics. There must be about 30 different ones.
click on page 3 for 28th Street
I also found a while ago, the MTA notice announcing the competition for the art work at these stations:
MTA proposal
I added those to the list of my favorites the moment I first saw them. Whimsical's the word, I think.
Have you seen the new artwork in the Bryant Park passageway? I first saw it today, and I like it a lot, although I miss the old display there.
David... I would agree that whimsical is a much better word. I'm going to call Arts for Transit and find out some more information about the artist.
I haven't been in the Bryant Park passageway in a long time. I will give it a look as soon as the Manhattan Bridge switches sides. What's in there??
Heypaul? In Subtalk?
Welcome back!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey Kevin... Thanks for the welcome back....
I called the MTA Arts for Transit office and got some information about the installation at 28th Street. It is the work of Mark Hadjipateras, and the themes on the walls reflect the toy center, fashion center and flower center businesses. I also learned that the glass is cut individually by hand, and not by computer as I had thought. I really like the work at 28th Street. There will be other work at 23rd, 8th and Prince. There will be a ceremony after all the stations are done.
Here's a link to a page with some information on the artist and his intent at 28th Street.
28th Street Murals
Truly, I really like the new artwork at 28th. I just saw it with a glance, but will have to check it out better next time I am there. It's a real treat having the original mosaics on Broadway back, and I think all the little extras they have been adding to many of the stations (all over the system) really makes them more interesting over the alternative of them just restoring the plain white tiles.
Should be more like:
Welcome back, Paul
/____|-|____\----THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE WELCOME BACK---/____|-|____\
A.P. Smith hydrants immortalized in tile. Cool.
I thought the new mosaics at 28th were really cool. I didn't have a chance to get off the train about a week ago when I went through there, so didn't really get a chance to look at them closely. They caught me by surprise actually, and they looked like little UFO's to me at first glance. I got to get off the train the next time I go through there. All in all I think they have been doing an amazing job at the Broadway Line stations so far. Hopefully they will continue into 4th AVe in Brooklyn soon. The station at 36th Street is already a jewel, hopefully the local stations will follow.
I gotta tell ya, these look pretty ugly to me. A better way to decorate these stations would have been to follow precedent and show historical images.
--23rd and 5th was the toy center in Manhattan for many years.
--28th between Bway and 6th was Tin Pan Alley and indeed I believe Astaire was "discovered" on 28th Street along with his sister, Adele.
What they're putting there looks like a bad version of Keith Haring, or the dude who had that exhibition in the old Myrtle Avenue BMT station at Flatbush Ave...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Two examples of mosaics without local connections are on the 1/9 line at Houston and 50th. Houston Street has mosaics showing sea creatures in a flooded station, while 50th has Alice in Wonderland characters. Both mosaics date from the early 1990's and do not, as far as I can tell, have any specific meaning or context with regards to the stations at which they are located - in other words, they could be at almost any station.
Two examples of mosaics without local connections are on the 1/9 line at Houston and 50th. Houston Street has mosaics showing sea creatures in a flooded station, while 50th has Alice in Wonderland characters. Both mosaics date from the early 1990's and do not, as far as I can tell, have any specific meaning or context with regards to the stations at which they are located - in other words, they could be at almost any station.
While on the subject of the meaning of "art in stations". What is the meaning of the "art" sculptures in the 14th Street/8th station. They are little figures under the stairways, or in corners here and there. When I first seen them under a stairway getting off of the A train at 14th, at first glance I thought it was a pile of....well you know. Then I realized it was actually a sculpture and they were everywhere, even in the corners of the mezzanine. Is there a common theme I am missing.
>>>What is the meaning of the "art" sculptures in the 14th Street/8th station. <<<
Those are by the occasionally ubiquitous Tom Otterness. His brand of whimsy can also be glimpsed at the new West Side park at the north end of Battery Park City, as well as Metrotech in Brooklyn. He has a knack for invloving his art with street fixtures like staircases and lampposts.
The theme on the west side is the pursuit of money as gnomes push pennies around. If I had a chance to view the art at 14th St I could probably tell you what that theme is too.
This is Tom's webpage
http://www.tomostudio.com/
while this page deals with his Battery Park City work
http://www.batteryparkcity.org/otterness.htm
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks. They are interesting, they just caught me off gaurd when I first saw them. Then I realized they are everywhere, even in some of the corners in the hall leading to the L Train.
For those not familiar with them, see here for a sample from the MTA site:
14th Street/8th Art
Actually the "birds" theme at the Canal Street - A/C/E station are also kind of cool.
The art at Canal IND is called "The Gathering"
Yes. They're nice, but why are we putting tchotchkes on the wall, when the T/A doesn't have money to buy basic supplies like paint?
Hasn't the money already been allocated for this in the MTA Captial Program?
why are we putting tchotchkes on the wall, when the T/A doesn't have money to buy basic supplies like paint?
I think that part of any station renovation requires that a certain percentage go for artistic work.
Perhaps William Barclay Parsons words in 1900 have a bearing here:
The railway and its equipment as contemplated by the contract constitute a great public work. All parts of the structure where exposed to public sight shall therefore be designed, constructed, and maintained with a view to the beauty of their appearance, as well as to their efficiency.
I think that this was an attempt to make the subway into something more than an ugly grim hole in the ground. I suppose that the many hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers heading to work right now may not have the time to look at and appreciate the artwork. But the work is colorful, intriguing, fun and a welcome relief from the appearance of much of the new equipment which in contrast seems quite harsh and sterile.
I think that part of any station renovation requires that a certain percentage go for artistic work.
And thankfully so. They really add some interest to the stations.
I think that this was an attempt to make the subway into something more than an ugly grim hole in the ground. I suppose that the many hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers heading to work right now may not have the time to look at and appreciate the artwork. But the work is colorful, intriguing, fun and a welcome relief from the appearance of much of the new equipment which in contrast seems quite harsh and sterile.
People may not stop and look, but subliminally, I think people do notice it. I think people do enjoy it. It may be unconscous, but these art additions are noticed. They do bring cheer to the stations, thereby improving the commute, even if that is all they do for many people.
I know I would much rather wait for a train 5 days a week at the 28th Street/Broadway station than the Rector/Broadway Line station, whether I like the art, look at the art, totally ignore it, or don't even notice it. It's the atmosphere that the renovations give that improves the general climate of the subway.
Heypaul is correct. It is a legal requirement that 1% of the project's budget go for artwork. MTA calls it "Percent for Art,"
or at least did at one time.
David
...Turner Classic Movies ran a 30-minute MGM travalogue earlier tonight on Manhattan from 1945 or 46, complete with several shots and a mention of the Third Ave. el "the last remnant of the lines that once covered Manhattan."
The first, brief shot was of an uptown el train going past Wall Street at Pearl, while the narration part was a much longer segment, accompanied by Technicolor shots up an uptown el train (complete with Interborough logo) apparently somwhere on the Bowery. The sharpness of the print made the color images look as though they were far newer than 55 or so years old (and the number of different colors the GM surface transit buses were painted in the mid-40s was also pretty amazing).
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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With dollar-sign dreams tempting them, rail equipment manufacturers worldwide are eyeing California, where notions of a $25 billion high-speed passenger train service are moving nearer to reality.
Bombardier Transportation’s new 5,000-horsepower JetTrain is perfect for aspects of the California system that planners envision will whisk people from San Diego and Los Angeles in the south to San Francisco and Sacramento in the north, Bombardier officials said recently when they unveiled their new locomotive.
California’s high-speed rail plan is one of about a dozen across the country that are moving forward, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.
Florida issued a request for proposals for its rail project two weeks ago, and Californians will vote on a $9.95 billion high-speed rail bond issue in November 2004 to get construction started.
“The New California Gold Rush” is how California’s High-Speed Rail Authority bills its ambitious plan. It envisions creating hundreds of thousands of jobs building railroad track and cars. A high-speed rail system would relieve congestion in the air and on the state’s major north-south freeways by someday carrying 32 million passengers annually and making the downtown San Francisco-Los Angeles trip in 2 _ hours.
“We want to have as many bidders as we can,” said longtime rail advocate and ex-Santa Clara County Supervisor Rod Diridon, who now heads the state authority. “I’m sure in the end the work will go to a consortium. This will be a large-scale enterprise and the companies will figure it’s best to spread the risk.”
Bombardier, which is already the world’s largest supplier of high-speed rail cars and engines, is preparing for the challenge, and keeping watch on its competitors, including France’s Alstom and Germany’s Siemens. All have built systems in Europe and Asia.
The main line of the California bullet train, which is designed to enter downtown San Francisco from the Peninsula, will feature electric trains “powered by fuels that result in zero emissions” and go faster than 200 mph.
Companies that make high-speed engines and passenger cars will line up to supply the electric trains, many of which will get their power from catenary.
The 2004 bond issue also calls for spending $950 million on branch lines for the high-speed system, such as on the coastal route from San Diego to Los Angeles’ Union Station. The authority already admits that coastal communities in Orange County are unlikely to accept the overhead wire, so it is searching for other options.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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“Meager federal funding for Amtrak contributes to the closure of large Ohio steel company,” states the Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers last week in a press release.
The Ohio ARP’s administrative director, Stu Nicholson in Columbus, said, “Years of subsistence level funding for Amtrak is now contributing to the near demise of an Ohio steel supplier that provides the passenger railroad’s fleet with most of its undercarriage assemblies. This may result in the loss of hundreds of good-paying jobs.”
The Ohio ARP is a non-profit railroad advocacy association.
Buckeye Steel Castings Corp. of Columbus said it had suspended operations as it negotiates for financing to continue operations.
Buckeye once employed more 1,400 people, but that number shrank to as few 400 two years ago. Business had begun to turn around slightly and employment rose to almost 700 as of last week.
The post-September 11, 2001 downturn in the economy and railroad industry saw the domestic demand for Buckeye products drop.
“This drop in business is due in no small part to the fact that action to fully fund Amtrak, one of Buckeye Steel’s major customers, has been sidetracked by Congress and the Bush Administration,” said Nicholson.
Buckeye Steel’s closure and layoffs follows the loss of another major Ohio rail industry supplier – a Timken bearings plant in Columbus, which also had Amtrak as an important customer. Ohio has more than 100 rail industry suppliers, many of which serve Amtrak and commuter rail agencies nationwide.
“When the federal government starves Amtrak, it also starves Amtrak’s suppliers, their employees and local economies which depend on these manufacturing jobs,” said Nicholson.
“Amtrak’s trains don’t even serve Columbus, and yet the ripple effect from starving Amtrak has had a direct and serious impact on our local economy. If the federal government provided enough funding to create a world-class passenger rail system, world-class economic development would be an obvious result,” Nicholson added.
Buckeye Steel, an OARP corporate member, began 121 years ago as the Murray-Hayden Foundry. Ironically, President George W. Bush’s great-grandfather, Samuel Prescott Bush, was president of Buckeye Steel from 1907-1927.
“Yet, President Bush proposes a $571 million budget for Amtrak in 2003 that would result in its shutdown. Amtrak said it needed at least $1.2 billion for 2003 just to survive,” Nicholson added, “but the General Accounting Office reported earlier this year that Amtrak needs $2.4 billion per year to run the system as-is and begin returning the condition of its physical assets to a state of good repair. That includes the replacement of hundreds of worn-out trucks that Buckeye Steel would likely provide, as well as assemblies for new rail passenger cars.”
Buckeye Steel officials say that would immediately improve its financial situation and preserve valuable jobs.
“It’s ironic that President Bush’s lack of support for Amtrak is contributing to the fall of a company that his great-grandfather helped make a success,” Nicholson said.
“President Bush and Congress can change this tomorrow by working to give Amtrak the funding it needs to rebuild.”
Uh huh.
Any company out there would be awefully stupid to stake their existence on a government agency that's been teetering on the edge of extinction for years now.
There's nothing unique about RR steel castings (besides the acient sloppy designs that Amtrak and Metra seem to love) that prevents anyone who's casting for RR parts from casting anything else.
Cast trucks have been on the way out for decades now (Budd developed the first more or less modern fabricated ones in the early 50's), and for lots of reasons. Today, reducing unsprung weight to a minimum is recognized throughout industry as a positive thing, welding has matured greatly, and casting has fallen out of general favor (though it's still used in many places).
In any case, the handwritting was on the wall 5 years ago. Why didn't they diversify? And why the hell would they think any future orders would be on cast trucks? (The LIRR, NYCTA, NJT, MN, Septa, etc, don't order new stuff with cast trucks).
The article says undercarriage assemblies, not truck assemblies.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Beginning October 27, Amtrak added another round-trip train on the Hiawatha Service operating between Chicago and Milwaukee. The new trains leave Chicago and Milwaukee at the beginning and end of the workday, and will bring the total number of round-trips in the corridor up to seven from Monday through Saturday, while remaining at six round-trips on Sunday.
“We are excited that Amtrak will offer even more options for travelers in this key corridor,” stated Acting Secretary Tom Carlsen of the Wisconsin DOT.
Carlsen added, “With almost 1,100 people using the Hiawatha Service every day, we have one of the busiest intercity passenger train routes in the country. We also have the best on-time performance rate, 94 percent, of any Amtrak route,” according to the San Francisco Chronicle.
Northbound No. 329 operates Mondays through Saturdays, leaving Chicago’s Union Station at 6:00 a.m.; Glenview at 6:22 a.m.; Milwaukee at 6:59 a.m.; and arriving Sturtevant, Wis. (Racine) at 7:29 a.m.
Southbound No. 342 leaves Racine daily at 7:30 p.m.; Milwaukee, 7:54 p.m.; Glenview, 8:31 p.m.; and arrives Chicago 8:59 p.m.
By adding the new service, Amtrak will be making more efficient use of its equipment. Previously, the six roundtrips required the use of three trainsets to correctly position the equipment to meet the timetable. By adding the seventh roundtrip, Amtrak will use just two trainsets that are rotated more frequently.
Wisconsin contributes about $3.9 million each year, which is added to the $1.3 million provided by the state of Illinois, to support the Hiawatha Service. Wisconsin is in the middle of a $2.6 million renovation and private development partnership at the passenger rail station in downtown Milwaukee, and is planning a new $7.5 million train station at Milwaukee’s General Mitchell International Airport. The village of Sturtevant is also developing a new train station to serve that community.
“Amtrak’s new service fits very well into our long-term goal to make the Hiawatha Service more efficient while at the same time expand opportunities for ridership growth,” Carlsen noted.
“More frequent train service is essential to providing good connections for business and leisure travelers and, ultimately, airport connections. The potential growth in ridership also improves the viability for our public and private development partnership at the Milwaukee station, which is already among Amtrak’s top 20 busiest stations. This also keeps us on track for eventual high-speed passenger rail service to Madison and other parts of Wisconsin.”
Since Chicago and Milwaukee are only 90 minutes apart by train,does the Hiawatha service carry a significant amount of daily Loop commuters, similar to the New York-Philly Clocker?
There is no analogy. The MILW trains are 4-5 cars and do not duplicate Metra's North line service on the same line. Clockers trains are really NJT trains with liitle ridership south of Trenton.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Cincinnatians are debating the merits of a light rail system for their city, to be decided in the ballot boxes on November 5.
“We don’t even agree on the facts or on what facts to use,” said Hamilton County Commissioner John Dowlin, one of three panelists to present positions in a debate on October 23 against the issue that would raise the Hamilton County sales tax by one-half cent, reports The Cincinnati Enquirer.
The two-plus hour debate at Xavier University included several sharp exchanges over everything from the impact of the proposed plan on air quality to how to calculate the percent of transit ridership.
If passed, the ballot initiative would cover the local portion of the 30-year $2.7 MetroMoves plan, which includes a proposed 60-mile light rail system that would cost $2.6 billion and another $100 million in expansion and improvements to the existing Metro bus system.
One of those exchanges came after a question over air quality, with Glen Brand of the Sierra Club, speaking for the pro-light rail side, claiming that the system would pull enough cars off the road to eliminate hundreds of thousands of tons of air pollution from the skies.
That brought a quick response from County Auditor Dusty Rhodes, co-chair of the Alternatives to Light Rail Transit, the committee campaigning against Issue 7.
“Maybe we ought to go to the Draconian measure of limiting each family to one car,” Mr. Rhodes said. “That’s the road we’re heading down now. It’s like if you don’t live where and how they want you to live, you’ll be thrown in a gulag.”
Each side had a three-member panel, and after each panelist gave a presentation, they took questions from the audience of about 60-70 students and local residents.
Another point of contention arose over the issue of how many riders use mass transit or light rail in other cities.
Stephan Louis, chairman of the Alternatives to Light Rail Transit, said that the light rail system would only reduce the amount of vehicle miles traveled in the seven-county metropolitan area by 1 to 2 percent.
“That’s just not worth it, and those numbers are the same or even dropping in other cities,” Mr. Louis said.
Light rail advocate John Schneider said that Louis was distorting that number by including the entire region, even though mass transit is only available in parts of Hamilton County.
“He’s twisting the numbers,” Mr. Schneider said. “When you look at the one place where transit is readily available in our region, downtown Cincinnati, the market share is more like 30-35 percent, which is a significant number.”
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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There is a chance that subway and bus fares will rise in New York City.
The current basic fare is $1.50, but since the subway opened in 1904 at a nickel a ride, fares have risen 13 times, five of those in the last two decades.
Not much is expected to happen until after Election Day, November 5. Gov. George E. Pataki and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which he controls, are not expected to make any changes until then, wrote the The New York Times of October 22.
Some transit officials say they expect a dangerous operating deficit for next year of more than $600 million, but the most recent figures show subway and bus revenues actually running $33 million ahead of budget. Questions have been raised about how those numbers came to be, as well as how last year’s equally dangerous deficit projection of more than $700 million, vanished.
At a City Council hearing in March, the MTA’s budget director, Gary G. Caplan, stressed that it has been seven years since the last increase, and added that MetroCard discounts have driven the cost of an average subway or bus ride down to $1.06.
He did not add an important related point, but his critics quickly did: the drop does not mean that the agency now collects less money. Ridership has increased, so fare revenue has remained actually about the same over the last five years.
Returning to the Council this month, Mr. Caplan appeared to place another important brick in his foundation, contending that New York riders pay slightly less than half of the transit system’s operating costs.
So what else is new?
Gee you just figured that out?
Duh.
I am surprised, however, at the high-quality of auditing they did on the books. Enron could have used these guys.
And to think, there's a real accountant who can count his balls and arrive at the same number TWICE running for governor (McCall) and New Yorkers would rather have the guy from Enron up for a third term. :(
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Out in Illinois, with development moving west from Kane County into Kendall County, Metra, the region’s commuter railroad, is eyeing plans to extend commuter rail service beyond Aurora – and some communities are already feeling left out.
A recent feasibility study by Chicago consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff Inc. found that ridership volume warrants extending service to Montgomery and Oswego, west of Aurora, but the study stopped short of recommending an extension into the Kendall towns of Yorkville and Plano, where big subdivisions are planned.
“Huge tracts of land are being bought up by developers here and we’re facing significant population growth,” says Yorkville Mayor Arthur Prochaska. “We’d like to have a commuter station here as soon as possible,” Crain’s Chicago Business News reported on October 19.
Dennis Gary, a Parsons Brinckerhoff vice-president who co-authored the study, conceded that some of the new subdivisions were not taken into account.
“We used past growth rates to project into the future,” he said. “Our data showed that ridership would drop off considerably if train service were to be extended as far as Plano.”
Technically, Metra’s parent, the Regional Transportation Authority, covers only the six-county metro area. To reach into Kendall, new legislation would be required.
Officials, though, are keeping an open mind.
“We’re telling these areas to go ahead and do the planning work,” said Philip Pagano, Metra’s executive director.
“They may not have the population base at the moment to support commuter rail service, but that can change over time. It’s good to get ahead of the population curve.”
The curve could be substantial. Naperville-based Moser Enterprises Inc., for instance, has proposed a 2,700-home subdivision on Yorkville’s west side.
“Train service here would definitely help us market our homes,” said Moser CEO Arthur Zwemke.
You gotta love Chicagoland residents, the anti-NIMBYs. Between this and the fighting over who will get the El Blue line extention to Schaumberg, Chicago is making itself out to be the one city (or maybe region for that matter) in the country that actually welcomes rail expansion.
You do gotta be careful about any group out of Naperville, nationwide beacon of suburban sprawl at it's worst that it is. They'll come in, build their 3000+ homes each, get their buyers, fill the schools, roads, and any semblance of a transit system out there with people. Then laugh all the way to the bank while the housing market drops right along with the liveablity of the city, and the new homeowners are stuck, a half hour minimum from a hour and a half train ride out of Aurora, in a community that looks like downtown tokyo in a suburban setting.
I've been to Yorkville a few times, a nice little town, with the Fox River flowing right down the west side, down that end it's so shallow you could practically wade across it. Lots of farmland though, and that, of course, screams to developers. I can remember some developments to the north of it, along whatever that north south highway was out there, but they were small, clustered around crossroads from Chicago. Most of the development then was people out there to 'get away' from the city in spec homes on acre lots carved out of the corners of corn fields. Often, to make up for the 2+ hr commute to the city, they have a little fishing ponds to relax when they finally get home.
I have a 2000 Chicago RTA map, and it shows a Pace (suburban bus system) line going south from Aurora into Montgomery in Kendall County. Since this is outside the RTA 6 County area, how is such a service funded (I realize this is more a BusTalk question, but it may determine the feasibility of the Metra extention).
Also, since the Metra UP-North line crosses the state line to terminate in Kenosha, WI, does the state of Wisconsin help subsidize the cost?
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Birney streetcar service returned to neighborhoods in Tampa, Fla., when service began on October 19 on the new TECO Line Streetcar System. The system operated free for its opening weekend, with grand opening celebrations held along its full length.
Tampa Mayor Dick Greco, joined by other dignitaries and longtime streetcar supporters, launched the new service at Centennial Park in Ybor City. Invited guests then traveled down the line in a parade of streetcars, which broke through grand-opening banners at each station stop. Events held along the line included neighborhood outdoor fairs with art, food, and entertainment; open houses at sites of interest; discounts at area restaurants; and 5K runs and walks to benefit charity.
The system is being managed by Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., a not-for-profit organization created by joint action of the city of Tampa and the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, and HART operates and maintains the system under contract to THS. The naming rights for the system were sold to TECO Energy, which is the title sponsor.
In the first phase of development, the streetcars run on a 2.3-mile-long route between the Ybor City Historic District and downtown Tampa, and the trip takes 22 minutes. The route operates with eight streetcars built by the Gomaco Trolley Company of Ida Grove, Iowa, from designs created by HART to resemble the double-truck Birney Safety streetcars used on Tampa’s streets between the 1920s and 1946.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Amtrak will end its five-year effort to haul cars of express cargo on its passenger trains, a service that it had hoped would pump life into the struggling rail line, according to a Wall Street Journal report.
Amtrak spokeswoman Karina Van Veen in Washington told D:F, “We don’t have a timeline, yet, but a plan is currently being formulated.”
The move, approved by Amtrak’s board last week, had been under review by Amtrak for months, according to a report from the United Transportation Union.
Last summer Amtrak President David Gunn indicated he was unhappy with the express business, which he said was losing money and hampering on-time performance of Amtrak’s long-distance trains.
Amtrak spokesman William Schulz said eliminating the cargo business “will be better for our finances, better for our service and better for our continuing customers, both passengers and mail.” He said express cargo would be phased out during Amtrak’s fiscal year ending September 30, 2003. He declined to comment on how many jobs will be eliminated.
Amtrak launched the service in 1997, leased freight cars, opened cargo terminals and carried magazines, fruit juices, tuna fish, canned goods, apples, machinery parts and other products on the same trains that carry passengers.
Some Amtrak long-haul trains started carrying more freight cars than passenger cars, and the company even started some new trains based on anticipated revenue from express service.
Passenger services became an issue, however, because so much time was lost en route at terminals switching out the express cars.
Instead of generating hundreds of millions of dollars a year of additional revenue, the express business had a loss of about $7 million on revenue of about $35 million for the fiscal year ended September 30.
Eliminating express cargo was part of Amtrak’s $3.4 billion budget for the current fiscal year, approved by the board. The budget calls for a larger financial contribution from states to operate Amtrak services in their communities, repair of at least 22 damaged passenger cars sidelined as a result of recent accidents and a federal appropriation of $1.2 billion.
I believe US mail hauling will continue.
KYW news radio reported this morning that the completion of this project is about (1) year away. Rebuilding of the PCC's is taking longer than they thought. They are doing (18) cars.
Chuck Greene
The civil/trackwork and traffic signal portions of the construction are close to done. Unfortunately this work will all be completed about a year before the first car is due back from Brookville. Good ol' Phila drivers will establish their bad habits and when rail service resumes it will come as a big shock (a number of the crash cushions at loading islands have already been taken out by errant motorists).
At least one suggestion went to SEPTA to institute a service of sorts when the construction is done (using either K cars or a mix of the repainted PCC's - and, yes, I know there is an extreme shortage of K cars!), to at least let folks know that trolleys are back, but this idea has fallen on deaf ears at SEPTA.
Hi Bob, its not that it has fallen in deaf ears, but Bob Hughes ho is a close friend of mine hs told me that the saftey island platforms are to high to clear the K cars. At leastthats where there guss is . They havent tried it yet. Its goodfor a PCC but the step well on the K Cars are to low.Bob has tried to get at least weekend service on the 15 running wen all the track work is done and a super told him of that situation. i hope hat helps. Also Bob im an assistant conductor on the RR division so I get some inside word. If you every have any questions, just email me and hopefully I can help.
Hopefully this helps
John
I wouldn't want to doubt Bob Hughes, but I'd also be surprised that the islands can't clear the K's since there was some talk way back when of using some surplus double-enders on the line in the interim. Even back then ('back then' being 3-4 years ago, when the project first got to the drafting board), K cars were the design vehicle - there was going to be a small order of a dozen or so articulated low-floors purchased for 13 and this would free up enough K's to run 15.
The objection to operating mixed (i.e. weekend LRV's, weekday bus) service is twofold, from what I hear - rider confusion (do they board at the loading islands or at the curb?) and ADA-related (the PCC's will be accessible, but the K's aren't, so even with mixed bus operation and SEPTA's current standing at 80%+ accessible buses, this becomes an issue). I've also heard informally that SEPTA doesn't want to 'tease' riders with K's and then switch to rehabbed PCC's once the line gets going and the PCC's are available.
I got wind of this book from a post by Allan over at Harry's site about a month ago.
"New York's Forgotten Substations... The Power Behind the Subway" was written by Christopher Payne.
In 1997, the author was walking past one of the substations in Brooklyn and got a look inside. He was intrigued by the feel of the place, as it appeared to be a place where time has stood still for 80 or 90 years. He later met Robert Lobenstein who is one of the superintendents of the Power Department, and got access to many of the substations.
One of the things that I love about the book is the author has a poetic heart. In the preface he writes:
"Each substation I encountered held a sense of calm and isolation. Thick masonry walls buffered the
interior from outside noise, while the silent and idle machines became sculptures, as if this were some deserted, forgotten museum. Only the change in daylight kept time from standing still. The experience was quite magical and also very surreal. Crossing the threshold of the front door, I felt like I was slipping into a dream, going back ninety years in time to a place far different from anything I had ever known."
The book is loaded with black and white photographs of many of the substations, as well as schematics of the plants. It is a very poetic and moody book, well worth the $21.95 at the museum shop.
If you enjoy going back in time, I would recommend the Steam Generating Plant at Pratt Institute, which is presided over by Conrad Milster, who is a very gracious and knowledgeable host.
When I was there this year, he opened up a breaker and created an arc that was overwhelming. It was almost like the legendary flame I saw flowing from a GG1's pans to the wire in Sunnyside Yard years ago.
Breaker Arc
hey!WELCOME BACK DUDE!
Good to see you posting on Subtalk again heypaul. I was disappointed that you couldn't join us Monday and Tuesday two weeks ago. But that cab in your house was the highlight of my trip. I almost imagined myself chugging her up and flying out of your window onto the street.
I was talking with BMTman last night and he mentioned seeing an old picture of some railfans. When he described it to me, it rang a bell. I went to the Heypaul Rapid Transit Archives which is a pile of newspaper articles that are strewn around my apartment and sure enough found the article and picture.
Who are these two people and what was the occasion??
The person on the train is no doubt the Motorman of the last train on the Myrtle Avenue "El," which ran on Saturday, October 4, 1969. My GUESS is that the other person is E. Jay Quinby, founder of the Electric Railroaders' Association.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David... I'm glad you responded. The man on the right is from the Electric Railroaders' Association but is NOT E. J. Quinby. He is identified as Leo J. Ross, President of the Electric Railroaders' Association. Doug and I were wondering....
The man on the left is indeed the motorman of the trip and is someone who graces our presence here at Subtalk...
Lee Ross is the man on the right (ERA President and editor of Headlights).
Well...not anymore. But he DID grace the Canarsie and Jamaica lines with his presence a few weeks ago.
And was spotted by the authorities at the Selkirk yard later that weekend on his way back to Chi-town ... and that's DEFINITELY him. :)
LOL!
I spotted BigEdIRTmanL's mug RIGHT away ... yep, that's the last Myrt alright, and I know he ran it. Wowsers! :)
You know, I THOUGHT that guy looked like Leo, but since it was over 30 years ago I thought it couldn't be...guess some people look the same forever. I worked with Leo for several years -- nice guy -- and yes, he was an ERA official years ago.
As for the Motorman (proper title at the time), I'm guessing "Big Ed," since he's been identified as a SubTalker, though he hasn't posted here for a while.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Yeah, Big Ed's been a bit too busy kitbashing his models and generally disturbing the peace as an elected official out in Montany lately - unfortunately this place is a bit too dense for him to wade through with the spare time he has. You can STILL find Unca Ed though through Joe Frank and he does look in here every now and then ... now that the snow's flying he might find more time than he's had lately ...
But yep, can't mistake that face. :)
Give that me a Seegar!
Ed Davis, Sr. (aka BIGEDIRTMANL alias the ORIGINAL IRTman) is the youngish Motorman reaching out of the cab to greet Leo Ross...
Well, obviously the Ross on the right is NOT related to you since you would have recognized him.
The gent with the Engineer's cap is the Motorman for the special ERA run on the Myrtle El...and a former SubTalker of much distinction. C'mon Selkirk, at least YOU oughta know who that is!
Heh. Yeah, while I was joyriding the Brighton, Unca Ed was making his biweekly nut over on the Yeastern division. How could I *not* know what mug? My good buddy, shutting down the Myrt and turning off the lights when he left da cab as the last one out the door. :)
How far back do your "rapid transit archvies" go? I have a steady supply of news clippings dating back to 1976.
--Mark
Mark... That may have been one of the earliest articles that I have that hasn't been sucked up into the vacumn cleaner when I do my biannual housecleaning. The archives are very spotty, as I mainly saved things that I knew about.
Another old one is from May 15, 1973 Daily News with 3 pictures from a trip sponsored perhaps by the Polytechnic Rapid Transit Club. There's one picture of the D types up on the Williamsburg Bridge. One shot of Steve Zabel waving out of the cab window of the Triplex cars. And one shot between 2 cars with Conductor Sam Shifter discussing the finer points of the old cars.
If anyone wants to see them, I'll post them here.
May 15, 1973 ... aside for that having been my 11th birthday, isn't that the same day that Rebecca Morris rode the entire system on one token and wrote about her experience for the Daily News? Do you have that, too?
--Mark
May 15, 1973 ... aside for that having been my 11th birthday, isn't that the same day that Rebecca Morris rode the entire system on one token and wrote about her experience for the Daily News? Do you have that, too?
I've never heard of Rebecca Morris... I kept this page because of the shot of Steve Zabel sticking his head out of the cab window. I don't remember if I belonged to the ERA then, or if I actually knew who he was. In later years, I used to see him with his slides at the ERA shows. I considered him fortunate when he went to work on the subways and very tragic the way things fell apart in his life.
Rebecca Morris was a woman who rode the entire NYC subway on a token and wrote about her experience in the Sunday News, and I think it was in May of 1973. I am not sure if she was a railfan or not. It was one of the first experiences about doing a trip like this ever written for a NY newspaper, I think.
I am only aware of Mr. Zabel from his photographs; I had no idea about how "tragic the way thigns fell apart in his life".
--Mark
OK, how about the front page of Newsday on the same date:Click Here
Check out Salaam's photos that Dave has put up on the web site. He took some very good night shots of the LA Gold line:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-04.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-09.jpg>
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-05.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-22.jpg
Salaam, how were you taking these shots? Film or digital? Did you have a tripod or monopod? What camera settings did you use? I would love to get night shots as clear and crisp as yours.
I used a sony DSCS30 digital still "cybershot" camera !
my webpages on that 1999 - 2000 series discontinued camera is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dscs30sonydigitalstillcamera/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30/?yguid=43376975
you can see my camera there
also join my webpage
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitaltransitphotography/?yguid=43376975
please post your marta digital posts there
join the group and load em up big time !!
thank you very much i missed this post because i caught it too late!
i also used a cheap tripod i bought from BEST BUY to support it !!
Cool. My camera is broken right now and is in the shop being repaired. I was thinking about buying a monopod becasue it would be easier and faster to setup and take spur of the moment photos. Are they still stable enough to take clear night photos like yours, or would I need a tripod for the best results? (this question is directed to anybody with an answer)
sure ! e mail me again at...........
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
then join my yahoo group on mass rail trainsit
digital transit phoography
post your pics there as many as you want !!
thanks !
The Federal gov't is funding a drill to see how the nation's subway respond to a terrorist attack. MARTA had their drill this weekend.
What other cities have done this already, and where on the system were they doing it? And why wasn't I picked to be one of the victims? That would have been cool :-)
Did the drill involve two trainloads of passengers running around the trains, going "woowoowoowoowoowoowoo?" Ya GOTTA love CNNtown and its own value of selfimportance. Yeah, terrorists WOULD choose Atlanta as a platform for a worldwide political statement.
Hey! The feds made us do it! But yeah, we WOULD think we're that important, because, well, we ARE :-) Isn't Coke the only drink made and only Delta goes anywhere worth going to? Do a news.google.com search for Free Trade Area of the Americas Atlanta, and you'll see how us ATLiens want to be the center of the world, even if it makes NO sense! Just read about the competition between Atlanta and Miami, and you'll see what I mean. We're a bunch of power-hungry mofos.
Hopefully Al Qaeda has stored the link and will leave US alone for a while. :)
It's only good for systems with stations named "College Park"---I guess the DC Metro is next, that is if the train gets there as "scheduled"
:)
What about systems with stations named College, built beneath the College Park?
-Robert King
I was told by the man from Arts for Transit that there will be another mural by Jack Beal on the opposite wall. When that will be wasn't known. That would really be neat.
Perhaps he will expand the study of the boy on the bike and do an entire mosaic devoted to
Heypaul: A Life in Progress
It's my third day in downtown Brooklyn after 18 years in Long Island City. Each morning I've changed from the 7 to something different to see what works best. The increase in commuting time probably only amounts to a half an hour extra- at least without any major delays.
On Thursday the 31st I left home at 6:00 instead of the 6:30 I had been leaving. Took the bus to Main Street terminal, 7 to Court House Square, breakfasted at the Court Square diner (knowing my new office would be cluttered and chaotic) and walked downstairs to the G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. At 7:10 the onslaught of Brooklyn Tech kids hasn't really hit yet, so there wasn't a long line trying to get through the three Metrocard-only turnstiles. Exiting at Hoyt/Scherm, there's a very long passageway (thankfully past a Transit Police precinct) that dumps you on Scherm somewhat east of Hoyt. It's a ten-minute walk to Court between Joralemon and Livingston, including long wait for light at Boerum Place. I arrived around 7:30.
Going home, I walked around the corner into the Borough Hall complex and had to wait over five minutes before a rather crowded Bronx-bound R-62 4 arrived. A lot of people bailed out at Bowling Green, but many more piled on at each stop to Grand Central. The stock exchange reportedly closes at 4:00 every day. Got down the ramp and stairs to the 7 platform just as a Redbird's doors were closing and being denied hearing whether it was local or express. The latter prevailed. Passed my old homebound boarding stop, Court House, at 4:30 sharp- not bad, only twenty minutes later than before. Not a terrible backup getting into Main Street, but a rather long wait for the bus home at a stop where I have a choice of four routes home. Halloween may have had something to do with it, judging from what the dispatchers were saying. Got home at 5:15, a half-hour later than usual.
On Friday the 1st, left home at 6:10. Despite news reports of power failure on upper WPR, took 7 to Grand Central for downtown express to Borough Hall. PA on 4/5/6 platform was advising people headed to Flatbush to take 4 to Nevins for 2 or 5. Very crowded (for 7:00) R-62 4 arrived in a couple minutes; held for over five minutes along with downtown 6 across platform. Inexplicably crawled to Union Square, then slowed again for most of the Joralemon tube. Seemingly normal number of uptown trains passed the other way. Arrived at 7:40.
Going home, walked to Hoyt/Scherm. Queens-bound G arrived almost instantly. Held at 21st for over five minutes waiting for slot to clear at Court Square. Climbed up to 7 platform at around 4:35, just missing what turned out to be an express. Got home at 5:25- ANOTHER long wait for bus!!
Today, left at 6:20- getting bold. Heard on news of previous delays on 4 "between Fulton Street and Broadway"(?!) lifting, so took 7 to 5th Avenue; walked through interestingly renovated passageway to downtown F, which arrived immediately. Most people exited at 42nd and 34th; remainder of ride to Jay Street very roomy- and fast. Noticed unusual fifties-style Art Deco 'SUBWAY' sign fixtures on street level near Transit HQ entrance. Fulton Street an absolute ghost town, with only a couple of buses. Arrived at 7:40.
Will probably go home through Grand Central again. Tomorrow's a half-holiday (don't have to get son at after-school), so with trains possibly less crowded, maybe I can experiment with changing at Times Square for the 2/3, or taking the F/7 combo home.
There certainly is more life in downtown Brooklyn than there was on the LIC waterfront- not to mention eateries. And, while this belongs on Bustalk, there's plenty of them to observe from every Brooklyn depot except UP.
It's gonna take a lot of getting used to.
It sounds so far as if the F is the best choice, with the G a reasonably close second. Not much point in an all-IRT route, however.
If they ever wire subway tunnels for cellphones with broad band internet (which mind you, is a development I DON'T relish) I wonder if Shadow Traffic could do subway reports the way they do traffic reports, ie. Heather or Joe Nolan or whoever it is would warn people about sick passengers at 59th and Lex, or police action at 23rd on the BMT--avoid those lines...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The radio stations already do a transit report. It's of just as poor quality as the road reports.
>>> I wonder if Shadow Traffic could do subway reports the way they do traffic reports, <<<
Better yet would be the MTA itself making the announcements throughout parts of the system which would be affected. Out here they even post any station with a non operating elevator at stations along the line.
Tom
Out here they even post any station with a non operating elevator at stations along the line.
New York could save a step and just post the name of every station with an elevator.
Actually, a remarkable proportion of NYCT elevators DO work.
I could understand not relishing the installation of cell phone transmitters in the subway (I feel the opposite), but what is wrong with broadband internet if it was to be (unlikely) implemented?
Don't judge traveling on Tuesday with school (public) closed and most city offices off as well (though I assume your working and taking the floater holiday as I am).
Why did NJTransit decided to close the stations down, like the Rowe St. station?...he friend just moved into a condo right near by and now it bites that that station is now closed. Also there does not seem to be any weekend service to that area at all...maybe I should just hop on the Newark subway to Grove St and get a cab then.....any thoughts?
Your friend should have asked around. The project (Montclair-Boonton Line Connection) that lead to the closing of Rowe St. took several years from planning to completion. It was no secret.
A condominium near Rowe St?
I don't think so. Are you thinking of the Davy St apartments?
In any case, the #92 bus serves the area (runs on Belleville Av), so you can take the Newark Subway to Branch Brook Park then the 92.
Yes, the closing of those stations does bite, suck, and whatever other sexual act it does... but DeCamp bus lines is trying to pick up some of the business that used those stations. I already wrote a letter to DeCamp with a proposal for a new interstate line that roughly follows the old #55, but haven't heard back from them yet.
In case you're wondering, the route I proposed would start at the 41st St Terminal (of course;-), run express on the NJ Turnpike and I-280, take the Clifton Av exit in Newark, turn right on Clifton, right on Bloomfield, left onto Mt. Prospect (which becomes Union Av), left onto Belleville Av, then either
1) turn left onto Broad St and terminate at Glenwood/Conger (opposite the Glenwood Diner and near Troy Towers)
OR
2) proceed straight up Belleville Av (which becomes Glen Ridge Av), turn right onto Grove St, left onto Claremont Av, left onto N Fullerton Av, right onto Bloomfield Av, right onto Park Av and terminate at the YMCA.
I think option 2 is obviously the better choice, but I proposed option 1 with reality in mind...
Yes...as in Montegomery Street....towards the end part of the street that borders Belleville.
Any Chicago SUbtalker, pelase e-mail me off-site. I am planning a vacation in CHicxago and need some specific info about CTA and METRA.
If you plan to take a camera along, be sure to stop at EVERY public parking garage along the Loop for pictures. And spend some time in the garage across the street from tower 18 - go to the 3rd level. WOW!!
--Mark
If you're looking for schedule information, I would suggest:
www.transitchicago.com (for the CTA)
www.metrarail.com (for Metra)
Also, for an incredible amount of information about the stations, lines, rolling stock and lore of the Chicago elevated system, I highly recommend
www.chicago-l.org
I would also highly recommend the Illinois Railway Museum, but that's another story and we're closed anyway... :-)
Frank Hicks
You will probably find what you need at
http://www.chicago-L.org/
Sort of nycsubway.org's 'sister site'
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you are planning to railfan the whole CTA L, the Douglas branch of the Blue Line and the Skokie Swift (Yellow line-the only line with an overhead catenary) are both closed on the weekends. As far as scenic CTA routes, ride the Brown line which has numerous street crossings on the western leg, and has fantastic views of the skyline from the Hancock building to the loop. The Metra electric South Shore branch runs on street median ROW similar to a light rail line, but with a bi-level emu coaches.
"The Metra electric South Shore branch runs on street median ROW similar to a light rail line, but with a bi-level emu coaches."
I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're confusing the Metra Electric (former Illinois Central electrification) with the South Shore Line (owned by the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District, not Metra). They both depart from Randolph Street Station and share trackage for a ways south from downtown, but the South Shore splits off to go to Indiana while the Metra Electric goes to Blue Island and University Park. The Metra Electric operates with bi-level EMU cars but has no street running; the South Shore uses single-level EMU cars and still does feature a small amount of street running. The cars are not intermixed.
Frank Hicks
The Illinois Central (Metra) Electric's branch line on 71st Street is the South Chicago branch. The original MU cars carried signs that said "South Shore Dist." since the trains passed though the South Shore neighborhood. Of course, this is distinct from the South Shore Line (CSS&SB), today's NICTD.
AFAIK the only remaining street running on the South Shore is through Michigan City. There used to be street running through East Chicago until September of 1956, when the bypass along the Toll Road opened, and in South Bend until July of 1970, when the terminus was moved to the western outskirts near the Bendix plant. I still remember seeing trains rumbling down the center of LaSalle Ave. in downtown South Bend.
I believe that the South Shore District Branch of the former Illinois Central was the old name of the branch that is now Metra Electric South Chicago Branch.
Although it does not actually ride on the streets, it uses the street median along 71th street.
Do you know if 370 Jay St. Would be open tommorow? I would like to fill out an application and get on a list for C/R. You guys have any advice for me? What it entails etc.?
The advice is to never listen to whomever told you to do that again.
C/R for NYCT is a civil service exam, for LIRR and MNRR it is a promotion and that is not the right address for those agencies either.
You need to buy "The Chief" each week. Itts civil service exams and where to go to get the applicaton to tatke the test. You have to pay to take the test. If you do not qualify to take the test you lose your money. If for some reason they do not select you to take the test then you get your money back if you do qualify for the job.
ie- Let's say I apply for the signal maintainer test. I'd have to send a money order. I woudl not qualify and would not get my money back . Now let's pretend I have the experience and they cancel the test- I'd get my money back.
The Chief costs 50cents
You need to buy "The Chief" each week. It lists civil service exams and where to go to get the applicaton to tatke the test. You have to pay to take the test. If you do not qualify to take the test you lose your money. If for some reason they do not select you to take the test then you get your money back if you do qualify for the job.
ie- Let's say I apply for the signal maintainer test. I'd have to send a money order. I woudl not qualify and would not get my money back . Now let's pretend I have the experience and they cancel the test- I'd get my money back.
The Chief costs 50cents
hey do you have any idea how much the C/R test would cost for me to take the exam?
$50 or $55 is the cost for most civil service exams.
I rode home on a set of Redbirds on the #5 this evening. Lead car S/B was 8997. When the train pulled into Flatbush I was intrigued by the fact that the normal rust-spots and corrosion on these type of cars was cleaned up. Areas were re-spayed and I was even surprised when I looked at 8779 from the end -- brand new hoses to the brake shoes and the couplers (with new fittings).
Anyone have any info on this resto work for this set would be much apppreciated...Stef, SubBus, Pelham Bay Dave...I could use your input...
Everything brand new: hoses, brake shoes, group box contactor tips, lightbulbs, motor brushes and so much more replaced during inspection. There is a red urethane insulation paint that matches carbody color...just duct tape and spray. Everything gets lubricated with 'TA green monkey oil,' no squeaks. Sadly, only cracked glass gets replaced...the rest of the scratchitti remains. These trainsets have TWO MILLION MILES on them. The crew does their best to maintain a decent MDBF despite the trainsets age.
This is the work of the East 180th Street Crew at 239th Street Yard.
Most of the crew now came from the SubSchool Car Inspector class of September 17th, 2001 from which I came. I am a lead tech, I work troubles and backfill in this crew and always lend a hand when called.
You posters notice the good work the crew does...I only wish Jay Street had open eyes. I am proud to carry the label '180/239th.'
CI Peter
Peter, thanks for your input. Yes, you guys did an A-1 job on making the cars look new again. (Even seemed that they got a washing as well as an all-around touching up).
Keep up the great work! And thanks for lending a hand with the MOW Dept. at Branford on Sunday.
Thank you my friend. The crew is not making the trainsets look new but RUNNING!!! Personally, I hate the Bondo/steel wool/duct tape scheming and welded plates often interfere with the door pockets.
Maybe MOW is my calling....holidays, some necessary home maintainance
and a few other situations are coming up. Holding my breath till December 15th. CI Peter
I have no info on it but things are going kind of crazy with these redbirds. I now spotted the 10 car Pelham R29 at Unionport its just sitting there. Also a 10 car R33 from Jerome has been at Westchester YD for 2 weeks just sitting there.
Also today a Redbird broke down No C/R Indication so what are they going to do reef it or fix it.
In case anyone is interested, I've got a PATH Car squeeze toy listed on EBay. It's about 6" long, represents one of the later three-door PATH cars. It came from a manufacturer of extruded moulding products, has no PATH logos.
Look under seller "sjh50" or search by "PATH squeeze"
Steve - if you came to NY and attended the NJ transit festival in Hoboken on 9/29 you could have gotten the real thing - with the "P" and the www and the 800# printed on it for free.
They were supposed to be given out only to kids. I told the guy that I have two kids at home so I have a little train.
Conveniently forget to tell the guy that my kids are 24 & 26 lol!
I went down to Collingswod, NJ this past Sunday to visit a church. If you don't know where this is, it is slightly to the right of Camden, and geographically below Philadelphia. It is right outside the suburb of Camden. Cherry Hill station is about a 5 minute drive from here.
When I was walking down Park Av., I heard a distant but noisy rumble of MU cars slowing down and stopping. About 15 seconds later, they would start up again. The funny thing was, they sounded like electric motors installed on Arrow III MU's.
There is one track that has catenary wire (to the best of my memory) and third rail as an overpass on the main road right outside of Park Av. The Atlantic City Rail Line is about 5 minutes away.
Could this be the PATCO?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Yeah, that's PATCO only there is no catenary and its two track. Which Church were you visiting? Why hadn't you ever seen PATCO before? Its pretty hard to miss.
I was visiting BFT Baptist Church at 900 Park Av. Yes, I have seen PATCO before when I have rode the Atlantic City Rail LIne on July 4th, 2001. The cars are not too bad, but I think they look a little dull from the usual side and the front and back view.
BTW, what is PATCO's top speed?
What is the Atlantic City Rail Line's top speed?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Also, to add, (I'm not sure if one will know), between what two station stops is PATCO found right outside Park Av.? (The two tracks appear as a dull, concrete flat bridge overpass over a main road.
PATCO trains go 65 on the Main Line and 40 max in the subways. The overpass was probably between Ferry Ave and Collingswood station.
PATCO trains did 75 when they first started running, but something wore out fast at that speed, so top speed has been set at 65 ever since. The Collingswood station is close to where Pete's church was, so the bridge that he saw could have been on either side (Ferry Ave or Westmont) of the station.
first off i would like to say that the rennovation of the 42nd street 8th avenue station is a major flop. it looks like a patch up job. but something always bugs me about the stations. when in rennovation, or installation, there is drilling or screwing that goes on. after that happens, there is this yellow pustule colored slime or paste, that oozes out of the walls. sometimes it leaves a puddle of ooze on the surface. can anybody tell me what it is, where it comes from or how does it form?
first off i would like to say that the rennovation of the 42nd street 8th avenue station is a major flop. it looks like a patch up job. but something always bugs me about the stations. when in rennovation, or installation, there is drilling or screwing that goes on. after that happens, there is this yellow pustule colored slime or paste, that oozes out of the walls. sometimes it leaves a puddle of ooze on the surface. can anybody tell me what it is, where it comes from or how does it form
It's probably some type of sealant.
oh. it looks so neeeeaaaasssty!
Maybe from the sex shops upstairs! sorry, hehe
Chances are that the 'yellow pus colored stuff' is uncured urethane foam sealant improperly applied by a subcontractor. This stuff is nasty if you make contact with it without proctective and/or discardable clothing. It is GLUE, period. AND it does not come off easily....someone fell asleep at the switch. I know firsthand...subcontractors damage to my car was immediately assesed by Hartford Insurance at $ 752.49 with my personal vehicle lawfully parked upon the city street in front of my shop. Sixteen hours of hand labor to clean the vehicle up....fourty plus CIs cars damaged...a few got $ 175 damages from the subcontractor...one MS1 got a facefull of the glue. Stuff does catch mice. CI Peter
There are a lot of variants of the urethane foam. All of the stuff us consumers can buy is the slow-cure stuff (usually 1+ hour to tack-free, 4 to 24 hours for complete cure). You can buy it at places like Home Depot in a variety of expansion ratios - and by the way, "Gorilla Glue" is the same stuff in a very-low-expansion version. If it is still uncured it can be cleaned up with acetone or similar solvents; once cured it is impossible to get rid of.
But what were they doing with it outdoors - it has almost no ultraviolet resistance - it'll turn dark brown and crumbly within months!
There are extremely-fast-cure (minutes) variants of this stuff, used for roofing (but it needs a UV protective sealant on top) and wall insulation.
Another type of yellow slime is cable pulling lubricant, a disgusting wax/soap-like substance. But that doesn't harden.
I've used almost every woodworkers urethane adhesive save 'Gorilla Glue' (it's not cheap.) I'll take scrap walnut, run it throught the bandsaw and glue the pieces up with seven tons of pressure to manufacture solid blanks with common grain to produce clock bodies and office accesories....no glue lines!!! The stuff used to seal up the roof has almost no ultraviolet resistance, did turn dark brown, flake off and pieces have already crumbled to the street. Overspray on our vehicles was a big secret...use acetone to remove 'the glue' combined with street dirt and steel dust and you strip off the clear coat and color coat. BTW: the wood workers urethane adhesive expands more than you think....what I used ordinary clamping had nice big fat glue lines. The biggest problem is getting waste glue off your fingers...that is what a belt sander was invented for. The stuff used for pulling wire makes for a nice bagel. CI Peter
It really is pus. When the walls were redone, they probably covered up an undetected infection. ;-)
Where would i enquire to take the civil service test so i can be a C/R for the NYC Subway system. Any advice , requirements etc. Would be greatly appreciated
Go to the website -> transit -> employement -> List of upcoming Civil Service Exams.
Unless its newly posted, I don't think there's an upcoming exam for C/R.
You may find something else interesting coming up.
212 268 2200
used to be the number for a recording of upcoming exams.
Vota Boriqua Liberacion!!!! My friend, there is an ongoing hiring freeze in TA but keep a daily eye on MTA and NYC/DCAS. NYCTA could concieveably offer C/R and T/O open competitive examinations at any time despite a hiring freeze in anticipation of relief. IF your present employment stinks and you have the passion for the rail, go for it despite any risks. TA work is excellent work. CI peter
You are going to have a long wait for C/R. They just had an Exam about 3 years ago. There where over 8,000 on the list.
Tuesday is election day. Please make sure to cast your vote for the man or woman or Third Party of your choice. And if you don't think that your vote counts just look at the last election. So get up off your BU and pull the level on Row B (for Standards) or Row D (for Triplex) or Row G (for Gibbs) but vote. This country is supposed to be the showcase of liberty and yet we're lucky to get a voter turnout of 50%. In Iraq 100% of the electorate turns out or else and they don't have any problem with hanger chads, dimpled chads, and pregnant chads. So go vote. Don't worry, subtalk will be here when you get back.
A Public Service Announcement
Larry, RedbirdR33
Vote early, vote often! :)
ONE day to go, then Unca Selkirk has to get a new sidewalk act. :(
If you don't vote for who you want,
don't bitch about who you get!
If you don't vote for who you want, don't bitch about who you get!
The only problem is that they never seem to offer "None of the above"!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't THAT be great? Sure would put an end to the losers they keep offering. I'm in favor of a DRAFT where citizens are randonly scooped off the street and thrown into a congressional office and forced to serve 4 years. I'd bet things would be very different since this "all volunteer congress" ain't been cutting it. :)
Wouldn't bother me as long as the compenstion stays the same. Ain't gonna work for free.
Helluva pension plan. MUCH better than da army ...
The only problem is that they never seem to offer "None of the above"!
If they did, it would always come in first, and control all branches of the government.
Seriously, you can ask for a paper ballot and add whatever name you like. My father did in 1988, putting in Ronald Reagan.
Well, since this is Selkirk's last day of politicking, hope y'all don't mind if I whine and mope anyway. I *always* vote for the wrong person. :)
Hope you're still in a good "moo-d"
Rim shot!
Yeah, I'm about to head out and pull some levers for McCall in a few. Just wish I could pull an anti-Bruno lever, but as is the case with goobermint here in NYS, there ISN'T anyone to vote for. Bruno is running unopposed just like any good Marxist republican.
Bruno is running unopposed
But can he get 100% like that guy in the mideast ;-)
I asked ... seems turnout is INSANELY low around his district. And woe be to those who DIDN'T vote for the Joe. We may be upstate, but good old Joe Stalin is alive and well and majority leader in the NYS Senate. But that's your NYS Republicans for ya - "competition is good, as long as it ain't in the voting booths."
Pull levers? You mean they've still got the old mechanical voting machines in your neck of the woods? I liked those machines. Their levers sounded a lot like the trigger caps on the R-1/9s.
And row "A" goes "click" ... row "B" goes "clack" ... row "C" goes "clunk" and you wonder why your property and school taxes went up for voting wrong? Yep, "Microsoft VOTE SP2 (tm)" solves THAT problem ... just ask Florida, or Georgia, or Colorado. :(
Remember the Brighton Ballot!!
--Mark
I'll be voting row "R", slots 16 and 44
We're all doomed.
The following appears on the TfL (Tube) website FAQ page:
"Why the Tube isn't 24 hour
If LU did introduce 24 hour running the entire system would come to a halt within days.
The problem is engineering. Systems that do operate every hour of the day and night, like New York, can do so because they have a four tunnel structure.
This means that not only can engineering staff and machinery be quickly ferried to the point they're needed, trains can also be routed through the extra parallel tunnels.
Therefore there is no need to close part or all of the system in order to effect repairs. In contrast, the Tube has only two tunnels, the ones through which the trains run.
In order to perform any engineering work on the track or signals train service obviously must come to a halt.
So that's why the Tube must close down for a few hours every night. Remember that the next time a politician promises, in exchange for your vote, he or she will have the system running 24 hours a day."
Couple of questions. First, for those with knowledge of London, does this explanation make any sense? Aren't there altenate routings that could be used if LU had to have "GOs" on weekends like NYC?
Second, what do they mean NYC has a "4-tunnel" system? Are they referring to express tracks?
This explanation is perfectly correct but how other systems cope i.e. Path I have no knowledge. There are very few alternative routings. GO's are usually shutdowns with shuttle buses. Yes I think they mean the four track express system.
Simon
Swundon UK
>>> This explanation is perfectly correct but how other systems cope i.e. Path I have no knowledge <<<
I suppose part of the problem is the close clearances in the tubes. Is there room for anyone to safely be between stations when the trains are running? NYC used to do major track work on active tracks, back in the day, but the NY tracks are such that they could work, then step aside when a train passed.
If it is possible for workers to be in the tubes, some kind of owl service could be instituted, with possibly one train every half hour, with the drivers knowing in advance where work was being done. LU probably would not think the benefit worth the effort.
Tom
>>>>>>>>Is there room for anyone to safely be between stations when the trains are running?
Absolutely not. 99% of the London tubes would be considered "No Clearance".
"If it is possible for workers to be in the tubes, some kind of owl service could be instituted, with possibly one train every half hour, with the drivers knowing in advance where work was being done. LU probably would not think the benefit worth the effort."
What about LU simply "single-tracking" it (while workers maintain the other track)? Is the trackage not set up for that?
What about LU simply "single-tracking" it (while workers maintain the other track)? Is the trackage not set up for that?
Not at all. In the tubes, distances between switches can be many miles.
"This explanation is perfectly correct but how other systems cope i.e. Path I have no knowledge."
One doesn't hear much of PATH GOs that close a whole leg of the system. But I guess they must happen.
Pre-9/11, they could have closed the whole WTC leg or the whole 33rd St leg and told people to use the other for Manhattan access. Pieces within NJ could be served by shuttle buses for a whole weekend if necessary.
"This explanation is perfectly correct"
Actually, of course, while correct this explanation is extremely self-serving. Surely they don't work on every line every night. Say that 5% of the system needs work at a given time. Just concentrate on a few lines at a time, and close them at night until the work is done. People who need the system at night would rather have 80-90% of it open than 0%.
The real reason no doubt is that it would cost more money and require a fare increase.
Of course, that's exactly what's done here on the lines that don't have extra tracks, and sometimes even on lines that do.
Another option (also used here), depending on the circumstances, is single-tracking.
Aren't there altenate routings that could be used if LU had to have "GOs" on weekends like NYC?
Not enough of them. The service which could be run in this fashion could hardly be described as worthwhile. There could be a wonderful two line system with Baker St - Moor Park and Gloucester Rd - Acton Town
what do they mean NYC has a "4-tunnel" system
I think you should read 'track' for 'tunnel' throughout this extract. With very few exceptions, Underground lines are two track only. The norm is that the deep level 'tube' lines use seperate single track tunnels, the older sub-surface lines a single two-track tunnel.
Aren't there altenate routings that could be used if LU had to have "GOs" on weekends like NYC?
Generally not.
The sub-surface lines do form an inter-connected network, similar to but sparser than the NY Subway, and there are some opportunities for alternate routings.
The tube lines were concieved very much as self-contained operations, and there are very few track connections between lines.
The tube lines were concieved very much as self-contained operations, and there are very few track connections between lines.
Pretty much the case. The Jubilee Line North of Baker St can be operated as a branch of the Bakerloo Line and North of Finchley Rd as a branch of the Metropolitan Line. The Northern Line of course has the via Bank / via Charing X choice.
Why couldn't they just "single track" portions in order to bypass emergency work/broken trains? I know that's what DC does. There was an emergency at the Union Station station on the Red Line and the Metro kept running by alternating trains in opposite directions on the same track in order to bypass the station.
Come to think of it, a few years ago I took the subway into Chicago from O'Hare on a Saturday and we came to a complete stop for 20 minutes. Then a train passed going the other way and soon we were moving again. Clearly a case of single tracking, probably for the whole weekend.
Because lets face it. Washington's system opened in 1976 while London's opened up more than 100 years earlier.
For the sub-surface lines in London, single-tracking is a viable option which is sometimes used for weekend track work. However, it is not an option for the tubes considering the vast distances that exist between switches.
When they need to pour concrete or do something major, an overnight repair isn't going to do it They need to close for the weekend just like everyone else. I don't know: do they single track for long distances and provide really infrequent service, or do they shut down the whole line?
They shut down the affected section and provide "rail replacement buses" aka shuttle buses. This is also commonly done whenever there is major engineering work (aka track work) to be performed on the sub-surface lines.
Whenever shuttle bus service is provided, the LU does not skimp on the buses. There are many abound, just like when NY has shuttle buses replacing rail service.
The London Tube FAQ page has a long explanation why they don't A/C their trains -- basically that the tunnels are too small to fit retrofitted trains and the A/C units would overheat the stations.
But then they make this astonishing statement:
"Only the most recent metro systems, those of Hong Kong and Singapore, have air conditioning on their trains and, even there, they are experiencing great difficulties in making it work."
Can they actually believe this?
Yes, it's quite incredible! Maybe e-mailing LT would be an idea and mentioning NYC. However, I don't think AirCon would be a valuable investment in the UK as the temperature hovers in the low 50s for three quarters of the year ;-).
However, I don't think AirCon would be a valuable investment in the UK as the temperature hovers in the low 50s for three quarters of the year
On the contrary, I think it would be a great advantage. In summer LU trains (esp tube trains) can be overpoweringly hot. Whilst in winter the contrast between outside temperature and tube temperature (and the fact that you are likely dressed for winter weather) can feel worse.
More significant is the point made on LU's web site about the effect of train air-conditioning on station and tunnel temperatures. I have no experience of NY Subways prior to the introduction of train a/c but I know from experience how hot the stations can get.
Has it always been this way, or has this got worse since train a/c was introduced?.
"Has it always been this way, or has this got worse since train a/c was introduced?."
Stations are hotter than they used to be. They have put in fans and even some station AC in select really awful places like GCT.
However, I remember back in the 60s there were warnings that if they put AC into the trains the stations would become totally unbearable. The effect is less than was feared. Also, a brief wait in a hot station isn't so bad if you can cool down in the train.
It's gotten worse since A/C was introduced. All that heat produced by the A/C motors running has to go somewhere ... so it's into the tunnels. On the IRT, especifally the contract 1 lines, it can get stifling because the tunnels were waterproofed with tar, and that doesn't let the heat out either. Also, the tunnels are seperated with beams and not concrete walls, so there is less of a piston effect when trains enter and leave stations, something that is very common in London's tube stations. This piston effect can also be used to ventilate the stations.
--Mark
They said the same thing about the IRT cars years ago but somehow they found a way.
I don't think NYC subway would be usable by most people in this day and age without A/C...you just get used to it.
Of course it is quite true knowing about the conservation of energy laws of physics that the heat has to go somewhere...mostly into the tunnels and stations which makes the a/c cars feel even more wonderful.
I might take issue with the question of A/C on the Underground. I know that when I am there in the summer, the conditons on many cars are very uncomfortable as is true often in my hotel rooms where you have to pay an arm and a leg to get an A/c in your room; even thought the temperature is rarely all that much above 20.
Remember, it'sa the humidity also that makes one feel uncomfortable and that A/C helps to relieve.
Even the first part of the statement is, how shall we say, "careless" with the truth. The PATH tubes are just about the same size as the London Tubes (even if the stations have a little more clearance) and PATH has been running air-conditioned cars since the K series arrived under the old H&M management in 1958. So just in New York you've got a subway with tight clearances built before World War I that has now been running AC stock for roughly half of its existance.
Retrofitting might be a problem because of the lack of space under the cars, as with the R-33WFs on the IRT, but the statement itself sounds like something they're trying to pass off on the public in hopes no one will actually bother fact-checking them on.
What happens when you don't get to the terminal in time for your next trip?(Ex. Signal problem caused congestion from Grand Concourse to 241 Street this evening). And also, when you get to the terminal at 5:15 when your reporting time is...let's say 4:45 because of delays?
Most of the time the dispatchers will jump another conductor or train operator head to make the trip. This is if the C/R or T/O hasn't reported in time to make his/her scheduled trip on that particular job. The thing is you had better have a legitimate reason for not showing up to work on time; such as what you stated, that the train you were on was running late due to some delay in the system. Being caught in traffic is not considered acceptable; you are given a free transportation pass to ride the subways and buses. If your reason for being late is deemed not acceptable, you will either have your time cut to when you actually reported, you will be written up on disciplinary charges, or you will be sent home and charged a day without pay. And if your lateness causes a trip to be ABDed, or dropped, then heads will roll. Particularly, yours. The TA doesn't stand for dropped trips without a very good reason.
Usually if your not back in the Right time to make your scheduled trip the dispatcher will tell you to hang tight.which means dont stray to far cause after traveling for the last 2 hours your going right back within next 10 -20 minutes.
>>> If your reason for being late is deemed not acceptable, you will ... have your time cut to when you actually reported, <<<
In many private industries your time would be cut to when you arrived, even with a good excuse.
Tom
In Stations the policy is the same. They do accept (or did in my case) NJT delays when I formed a taxi pool to Newark Penn and kept them informed via cell phone. I lost no pay and got to skip the stations I missed by going to wherfe I would be and pick up my shcedle from there.
I was docked only once when I misunderstood the station i was to go to and went to the wrong station- I lost only 15 minutes.
Consider yourself lucky. In general, RTO will not accept a problem with the SI Ferry as a legit excuse (exceptions dependent on the TD and what your job is). And, on occasion, I've had a problem when a NYCT bus on SI fails to show on schedule (or at all, for that matter). How do you identify a bus that doesn't show up?
Has anyone spotted the new ALP-46 & Comet V Equipment on the NJT Rails lately? And how many are in revenue service? All Information is greatly appreciated.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I saw a train of Comet V's on Track 3 at Newark Penn Station a couple of hours ago on Long Branch bound train # 3201. I did not notice the type of engine, but I did see ALP-46's this past Friday (11/1) running on both the M&E and the Coast Line. One was pulling Comet V's and one was pulling Comet 3's and 4's.
I have seen an ALP46 pushing a Coast Line train of eight Comet IV's at Newark Airport Station several months ago.
I've also seen an ALP44 pulling a set of 3 Comet V's at Orange Station westbound, most likely headed for Gladstone about 2 months ago.
I have seen a whole pack of about 50 estimated Comet V's and about ten sighted ALP46's in the same area, flooding the front yard of the MMC while riding the Waterfront Connection the same day I saw the 3 Comet V's.
The Comet V's and ALP46's are running on the Monclair, M & E, NEC and NJC lines. They have only operated in revenue service on the Gladstone Branch once and that was on October 19th when the Steeple Chase took place. Your best bet to catch one is on the Montclair Line.
The November issue of RailPace has a couple of shots of it/them, page 26, 27 & front cover. An article talks about the new Montclair Connection, including a small map .... enjoy
I've gotten to see the ALP-46 up close a few times even though I've yet to get my cab ride. Yesterday, I did get a copy of the ALP-46 engineers manual from my counterpart at NJ Transit.
Does anyone know when the ERA library/collection at Grand Central Terminal is open? I have an appointment in Mid-town tomorrow, and I'd thought I might stop in and browse for a few hours.
It's not that kind of library. It is a private research collection.
Like the NY public library research libraries, it is not open-shelf
and it is not "browsable". You'd need to make an appointment with
one of the ERA librarians. I'm not an officer of the ERA but
hopefully one will see this and can give you the phone #.
ERA
212-986-4482
Open Monday evenings, but you may be able to make an appointment for another time.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thank you. I stopped by the Grand Central Transit Museum Store this afternoon before going up (and not yet knowing the details). Met all sorts of interesting and helpful railfan folk just in the general vincinity of the store!
Thanks all!
I was there the other day nice store they had a few used train numbers for $8
After a subtalker posted here that when viewing from a railfan window of a northbound (J), you can see the Canal St. realignment, I though I'd have a look myself.
When approaching Canal St, there's a timer which slows the train so you can get a good look at the tunnel. The northbound track seems to have a natural lineup with the new northbound track and the tunnel structure looks as though this track was meant to follow this route. In other words, perhaps this portion of the Centre St. subway between Canal and Chambers was designed as a four track subway instead of the two tracks that are there today. Maybe the BRT planned on a four track line, but opted for two tracks approaching Canal St. Take a ride on a northbound (J) looking through the railfan window and see for yourself.
Some may say that the BRT planned the Centre St. subway as is today. but you never know what the BRT may have first planned. Your thoughts.
Bill "Newkirk"
I found this map in the 1914 Moody's Investors Manual - It gives some insight into the original plans.
1914 BRT Proposals
Very interesting map, even shows turnouts for a Central Park West subway. However, map shows the line as is today, but when riding a (J), you'll see what I meant about the tunnel construction. You gotta see for yourself.
Bill "Newkirk"
You missed the obvious...look in the direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. The line over the bridge connects to the outer tracks on the loop, northbound to the Williamsburgh Bridge. Tw tracks still terminate at Canal St from the Williamsburgh. The tracks from the Montague tunnel DON'T go to the Williamsburgh, the go to the Manhattan Bridge. There's no through connection shown on the map from the tunnel to the Williamsburgh Bridge.
-Hank
It looks like the Fulton El was supposed to run over the Brooklyn Bridge and run via the Nassau/Centre line then back over the Williamsburg. It lookks like the Myrtle El was also supposed to run over the Brooklyn Bridge (it's a little hard to make out from the map). Is that true? that would have been really neat. From Myrtle-Bway you could have taken a Myrtle El train, down Myrtle over the BB, over the WB, and back to Myrtle-Bway via Broadway/Brooklyn! I guess the similar could have been done from Atlantic (current L line) - Fulton El-BB-Nassau-WB-Broadway-back to Atlantic.
Joe Brennan discusses this here. The line opened in August 1913 with all trains using the west platform. In September 1914 a new northbound track brought northbound trains to the east platform. The change being made now is a return to the 1913 setup.
Correct. The wall and walk-across platform that they are currently removing was not original. It was added very near the beginning, but when a train rolls through that "express" track there in the the near future, it will not be the first time. About 90 years ago, a train was able to do that. That original setup didn't last long though.
I see the TA "spruced" up old water damaged Chambers St. The ceiling above the platorm and mezzanine was painted white and above the tracks, painted brown. Wow, I am so impressed (sarcasm).
When I look at the old abandoned northbound outer platform, I assume that the last time there were revenue passengers using it was before the Nassau St. subway was open and Chambers St. was a bustling terminus as opposed to a station. Am I correct or wrong ?
Also the walled up southbound outer platform raises this question. I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ? <<<
Probably wrong, since the old IRT Worth Street side platform station which is north of Brooklyn Bridge co-existed with Chambers Street while the old side platform was there.
Tom
Old Tom,
Any idea why the southbound outer platform was walled up amd not the northbound ? I'm wondering what's behind that wall.
Bill "Newkirk"
Isn't the uptown #6 train just behind that wall?
--Mark
Yes, behind the north end of the station.
Towards the south end there is still some platform there, you can see its edge.
wayne
When I look at the old abandoned northbound outer platform, I assume that the last time there were revenue passengers using it was before the Nassau St. subway was open and Chambers St. was a bustling terminus as opposed to a station. Am I correct or wrong ?
I believe the "local" platforms at Chambers were to be used for unloading, while the "in use" platforms were to be used for loading trains. The center platform had that "unloading" function also. Remember that the two pairs of tracks at Chambers go to/come from different lines than the other. Even though they look like "express" tracks, they were really seperate lines running next to each other. I forgot the layout, but look for the "I can see the light" thread going on, and there is a map posted in that thread that shows how Chambers was supposed to be layed out.
Also the walled up southbound outer platform raises this question. I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ?
Your assumptions are correct. The Broad Street bound local platform at has been destroyed to make way for the extension at the Lexington Brookly Bridge platform. The 6 line tracks are on the other side of that wall walling off the "no longer there" local platform at Chambers Street.
Actually, you can see one of the columns from the old Chambers street walled up local platform in the tunnel at Lex's BB station!
In this photo from Joe Brennan's site, you can see one side of this former column, and at Chambers looking at the walled off platform you can see the other. This column used to be on the walled off local platform at Chambers and now it is along the track wall of the local Lexington line at BB!
Here is a quote from his site:
"The west side platform is walled up, and much of it was destroyed to make room for the expansion of Brooklyn Bridge station. The tiled columns project a little bit from the new wall, except the last one which is flush with the wall. You can see the other side of that last column...from Brooklyn Bridge station! Go to the uptown end of the uptown platform, and look into the tunnel where the 6 train goes. Just outside the station, on the side away from the platform, is the column shown here. It's dirty, but it has a light on it for the route request buttons."
For more info on Chambers see here:
Brennan's site
The question I've always had about Chambers St is how far south do the express tracks go leaving Chambers St? I understand it becomes 1 track and reaches a bumper block. What was the original use for that trackage?
I think those tracks were originally planned to run over the Brooklyn Bridge and connect to the Myrtle, Lexington, Fulton and 5th Avenue Els.
Considering the express tracks go down and the local tracks go up, south of Chambers St, I'd think the local tracks were to have connected to the Brooklyn Bridge.
Considering the express tracks go down and the local tracks go up, south of Chambers St, I'd think the local tracks were to have connected to the Brooklyn Bridge.
No, I believe, at Chambers, what is the current Broad Street bound "local" track and what appears to be the Broad St bound "express" track were meant to run from Canal Street and then over the Brooklyn Bridge. The Eastern tracks at chambers were meant to come from Fulton, and then run over the Manhattan Bridge (which actually did connect until the late 60's).
Now forgetting that the real original layout for Canal St was for the two western tracks in 1913 were meant to go south, consider Canal what it became with the two stub center tracks-(the layout at Canal is a whole other story-this is a later plan-the plans for the line changed many times). Considering Chambers Street, what is the current Nassau Line was actually meant to be two seperate lines, meeting at Chambers St (and a third one terminating on the center tracks at Canal).
One line was to run:
WillyB-Essex-Bowery-Canal(outer tracks)-Chambers(western tracks)-Brooklyn Bridge-Fulton and Myrtle Els in Brooklyn.
Another was to run:
Manhattan Bridge-Chambers St(eastern tracks)-Fulton Street-Broad Street-Montague Tunnel.
The current: Bowery-Canal Street-Chambers St-Fulton St-Broad Street route was not to be possible with that arrangement.
The reason that the Nassau Line seems so screwy, and has so much unused infastructure is because the planned layout for it has changed so many times, and the actual layout has changed so many time. You could write a whole book on the Nassau Line and it's connections, and planned connections alone!
Click here for the map that may help illustrate this a bit more:
1914 BRT Proposals
Thanks for the interesting map!
Your welcome, but the credit actually goes to someone who posted it in the "I can see the light" thread going on now about Canal Street here also. But yes, it is an interesting map!
You are correct. From my article Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 to 1913 right here on this site:
The [Brooklyn Loop Lines] would connect to all transit lines running over the Brooklyn Bridge, and the Manhattan and Williamsburgh bridges when transit lines would be constructed over them. The Manhattan portion of the loop would run under Centre Street, but part of the proposed ROW was already in use by the IRT. The proposal was then changed to have a terminal built under a new city office building and it became known as Chambers Street. Construction began on January 27th, 1907. Since the area under construction was at one time a pond that was later filled in, construction of the Municipal Building proved difficult, causing delays in station construction so the foundations could be properly secured. The initial plans for Chambers Street comprised of a four track, five-platform station, later changed to a six-track station with seven platforms. This never came to pass and the original plans were used; however, provision for two additional tracks and pltforms was built into the station at the east end. The westernmost tracks of Chambers Street (the ones closest to the IRT Lexington Ave line), at the south end of the station, were built to curve eastward and climb to connecting ramps onto the Brooklyn Bridge. These ramps were located under the Park Row terminal, and were built, but tracks were never laid on them. The easternmost tracks, at the south end, were to connect to a proposed subway to William Street. On the north end, after a complex series of crossovers, four tracks would continue north to Canal Street and eventually the Williamsburgh Bridge, and the two easternmost tracks would also have a branch to cross the Manhattan Bridge. Chambers Street was built to be a through station that could handle heavy traffic; the outer and center platforms would be used for exit traffic and the remaining inner platforms used for boarding trains. The elevation of the westernmost tracks is higher at the south end of the station than the others, in anticipation of crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.
--Mark
Do you know where I can view some pictures of it in it's heyday ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Those tracks were meant to connect to the tracks coming off the Brooklyn Bridge, in effect replacing Park Row as the terminal for those trains.
Why didn't they just remove the wall and leave an island platform?
Why didn't they just remove the wall and leave an island platform?
The "local" platform is gone. That column that you see in the post above next to the 6 track used to be one of the columns on the local platform at Chambers. The platform is gone, the space it occupied is now part of the 6 northbound track. All that seperates the 6 track from the Broad Street bound J/M track at Chambers is that column (at least at that point anyway), and the wall they put up there. This might be a generalization, but see here (again a photo from Joe Brennan's site):
Of course, this the still existing platform, but it may help to illustrate. Picture the 6 train running where that stairway in the photo is, with the column on it's right, then the wall between the columns, then the J/M track. That's how the set-up is on the abandoned side.
Besides, in those days these were two separate railroad companies, each with their own fare collection. It would not do to allow Brooklyn passengers to co-mingle with those from the Bronx!
: ) Elias
>>>"Besides, in those days these were two separate railroad companies, each with their own fare collection. It would not do to allow Brooklyn passengers to co-mingle with those from the Bronx!"<<<
And dependent on the year, besides the subways, you could also
transfer from Brooklyn to da Bronx and visa verse via the open
air route (Elevated) Park Row (BRT) and City Hall (IRT) and
Brooklyn and Manhattan Surface Lines. TARS & B&QT.
It was a transit hub, that has gone to hell in the shadow of
City Government.
;-) Sparky
air route (Elevated) Park Row (BRT) and City Hall (IRT)
Where were Park Row (BRT) and City Hall (IRT El) in relation to eachother - must have been pretty close, but I can't figure it out from the pictures...
If you can imagine where the BMT Terminal is at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, The IRT Terminal was around the corner on Park Row alongside City Hall.
A few years ago, they had a door open on the southern mezzanine, and I saw the whole depth of the platform, all thw way beck to the original wall. They made some sort of cable room or something out of it, but at least on that end, the whole platform is still there.
When I look at the old abandoned northbound outer platform, I assume that the last time there were revenue passengers using it was before the Nassau St. subway was open and Chambers St. was a bustling terminus as opposed to a station. Am I correct or wrong ?
Correct. The two outer and center platforms were removed from passanger use in 1931. I'm not sure if they were ever used for the old "Nassau/SeaBeach/Franklin" summertime specials to CI after that date.
Also the walled up southbound outer platform raises this question. I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ?
Correct again. The northbound platform was destroyed in 1962 to make room for the extension of the Brooklyn Bridge platform. In fact you can see one of the old tiled BMT platform pillars peek out from the wall on the BB extension on the extreme northern end of the uptown platform:
>>Correct again. The northbound platform was destroyed in 1962 to make room for the extension of the Brooklyn Bridge platform. In fact you can see one of the old tiled BMT platform pillars peek out from the wall on the BB extension on the extreme northern end of the uptown platform:<<
Wow, I didn't know that. I gotta check this out next time I'm at Brooklyn Bridge station. So in order to extend BB station, they had to intrude onto the southbound Chambers St. outer platform. That station is full of history as well as mystery.
Bill "Newkirk"
So in order to extend BB station, they had to intrude onto the southbound Chambers St. outer platform. That station is full of history as well as mystery.
That's why it is one of my favorite stations....yes, I must be sick. I still think that would be an amazing station if it was all fixed up. Although maybe it's the extreme squalor that makes it so interesting.
Photo from Harry Beck's site. (Isn't it embarrasing that this is the condition of a station basically at the base of City Hall?)
Unbelievable! I couldn't resist posting these photo's after looking through some more of Harry's photos of Chambers Street. No wonder they chose Chambers Street to film C.H.U.D. A Hollywood set couldn't have made a better location for a horror movie!
You know, maybe C.H.U.D. actually stood for Chambers' Horrible Underground Delapidation. :-)
Good point. You'd think you were on Ellis Island before the main building was rejuvenated.
Neat, he has a shot of one of the ancient punchboxes.
Yes, it is pretty neat!
What amazes me more about the station is that mess in the first photo is in a working station! It would be expected at a station like 18th/PAS, or 91/Bway, but this is a normal in use station. Yes, the platform seen there is abandoned, but it's all in view of the in service platforms. And the paint chips falling all over the station in the photo in the post before that, also are a part of the working station! 91st Street's ceiling actually is in better shape! I don't understand how there is so much work going on at stations all over the system, while Chambers has been allowed to deteriorate to the level it is in.
I used this station on almost a daily basis from 1954-1957, and it was in a deplorable condition even back then.
It still had incandesent lighting in those days.
The ceiling couldn't have been that bad back then. Or could it?
It was the worst looking station on the system at the time, tiles falling, water coming through the ceiling. It probably looked worse because of the dimness of the incandesent lights. The lights were all out on the three unused platforms, and this added to the gloom.
It was the worst looking station on the system at the time, tiles falling, water coming through the ceiling. It probably looked worse because of the dimness of the incandesent lights. The lights were all out on the three unused platforms, and this added to the gloom.
Things there haven't changed much!
>>It was the worst looking station on the system at the time, tiles falling, water coming through the ceiling. It probably looked worse because of the dimness of the incandesent lights. The lights were all out on the three unused platforms, and this added to the gloom.<<
>>Things there haven't changed much!<<
Oh they have changed much, fluorescent lighting makes the station looks 10 times worse than in the old incandescent days.
See the movie "Somebody up there likes me" starring Paul Newman in the biography of boxer Rocky Graziano. Chambers St. is disguised as 14th St. Two scenes were shot there in this 1955 movie, involving BMT Standard #2354. Yes, the station was incandescent lit and very murky. That scene should have been named somebody down there hates me !!
Bill "Newkirk"
My father used it in the early 50's, when he could ride there from Cortelyou Road on the Brighton line over the Manhattan Bridge. He too said the station was in sorry shape. It's as if the station's appearance became irrelevant after the 1931 platform closures.
One of your favorite stations LMAO?! I agree with you about a major renovation. If it is fixed it will look beautiful That pic oly makes Chambers even more hideous than it already is. Don't you guys think so?.
One of your favorite stations LMAO?! I agree with you about a major renovation. If it is fixed it will look beautiful That pic oly makes Chambers even more hideous than it already is. Don't you guys think so?.
Yeah! I was only there only a few weeks ago, and it didn't seem THAT bad (gasp-at least not as bad as the photo makes it out to be). Most of the time photos make things appear better than they actually are. That photo really makes it look like some ancient ruin!
If you were to knock out the wall along the n/b local track at northern end of Brooklyn Bridge, the Chambers St. station would theoretically be in plain sight.
Wouldn't that be an interesting sight? An 8 track, 8 platform megaplex!
It would make for an interesting station! In addition, I guess they would have been forced to clean up the Chambers station when they redid Brooklyn Bridge. Interesting, most of the time when they redo one station in a complex, they usually redo all the stations in a complex. That certainly wasn't the case for Chambers. Brooklyn Bridge was redone two times (once when they abandoned Worth St, and again about 10 years ago) and Chambers not even once!
I can't figure out why Chambers St. is still in such awful shape. Fulton, Broad & Canal Sts have all been rehabbed.
>>I can't figure out why Chambers St. is still in such awful shape. Fulton, Broad & Canal Sts have all been rehabbed.<<
Rehabbing Chambers St. would be a multi million dollar nightmare. And the station is way to large for today's ridership. The best thing to do to rehab Chambers St. is to do what is being done to Canal St. Make Chambers a single island platform like Canal and abandon the rest. Rescue the marble and Brooklyn Bridge tablets from the northbound outer platform and incorporate them into the 1960 false wall. Build a false wall for the northbound side's unused platform replicating the original mosaics. And for the high ceilings, install grating to lower the ceiling.
Other than that, what else can be done to rehab Chambers St ? This station essentially died back in 1931 when it was downgraded from a major terminal to an over built station. Any suggestions, I'm out of ideas on this one.
Bill "Newkirk"
Only way Chambers gets restored to its former glory is if the Nassau loop is included some day in any Second Ave. subway project. Once the station became a boarding/disembarking stop for people living on the mid- and Upper East Side, it's sorry condition would suddenly become a far greater concern at MTA headquarters, especially if it was the showplace downtown stop of an all-new line north of Delancey Street.
How would a Second Avenue Line reach Chambers St? Through the former Manny B leads?
They would probably have to build brand-new flying junctions, with one track swinging under the Delancey Street tracks; the 2nd Avenue Line would connect with the two OUTER Delancey tracks, while the M and J trains would use the two inner tracks. I woould imagine that unless they wanted to build a "jughandle"-type curve, 2nd Avenue trains would most likely skip The Bowery station. (That is no great loss, since it is an underutilized station, anyway.) 2nd Avenue trains would then stop at the outer tracks of Canal Street and Chambers Street, continuing on to Fulton Street, Broad Street, and through the Montague Tunnel to Brooklyn. M and J Trains would most likely terminate at Chambers Street.
I agree with that. I'm sure if the 2nd Ave subway would come through the Nassau line, it would probably end the M and J going past Chambers (although the J might still go to Broad). I think it would be better for the J and M to use the middle tracks though, and the 2nd Ave subway use the outer tracks, because then the J and M could termminate on the center tracks at Chambers, and possibly even use the Center platform. Either one though would be better than the let's say the J and M using the western tracks at Canal, and the 2nd Ave line using the western ones. With that you would not have an across the platform transfer at Canal and Chambers for southern Brooklyn trains. Although you would still have to switch platforms if you were going uptown on the 2nd Ave and were coming from the WillyB.
After the reconfig of Nassau line, my guess would be that 2nd Av line would use 2 easternmost tracks.
Arti
Doing that would mean less disruption of the J/M/Z north of Canal, but it would also dead end both that line and Second Ave. at Chambers without a major reconfiguration of the connections south of Chambers. That would also require construction within the station itself, since the west side elevation at the south end is higher than the east side -- you'd either have to build a crossover from the "express" track on the east side of Chambers to the downtown Nassau St. line to continue the Second Ave. route, or build one from the track coming off Nassau from Fulton to the west side "experess track" to allow through service for the J/M/Z.
Don't forget that the reconfiguration of Nassau line is already in progress. What's lest after that is abandoned 2 east side tracks.
Arti
The line is being reconfigured, but the tracks will still be there and can be modified again if a major project like Second Avenue was involved. Going back to the old alignment, or moving the J/M/Z trains to the center tracks either between Bowery and Canal or Canal and Chambers to allow through Second Ave. service to Broad St. and on to Brooklyn would be a minimal part of the cost of the entire line.
You could build the merger with minimal service disruptions if you reconfigure the Centre St. interlocking so that Queens bound J/M trains use the outside track (the old Dekalb Ave. bound bridge track) all the way to Canal/Centre, instead of the way service runs now, switching over the two Manhattan bridge stub tracks immediatley upon leaving Chambers St. Construction could be done in between both J/M tracks as was done north of Queens Plaza for the 63rd. St. connector. And no construction south of Chambers to reconfigure the differing grades would be necessary.
An even easier way exists. As the 2nd Ave line contines south down Chrystie St. from it's station at Grand (which would be an expanded station), the tracks could dive underneath the current Q/W tracks running along Canal St, turn 90 degrees east, run underneath the current Manny B stubtrack tunnel from Chambers St, the turn 90 degrees south, raise the grade and have the 2 tracks emerge between the 2 J/M/Z tracks coming from Canal/Centre. These tracks would then feed the 2 center tracks at Chambers St, with scissor crossovers just north of the station so 2nd Ave trains could move to the outer tracks and continue south along Nassau.
I don't see the need to have the tracks from 2nd Avenue in the center - if they're on the East side of the station, they're on the trackways designed to go to Fulton, Broad and the Montague tunnel anyway.
The line from Canal, Bowery etc could then use the current downtown half of the station as a terminal or maybe run up the half-constructed leads onto the Brooklyn Bridge and back along the Myrtle Avenue El (if only it existed still) - that would be some cool route Metropolitan Avenue to Metropolitan Avenue.
Putting steel subway cars on the Brooklyn Bridge won't fly, because of their weight -- right now the city is even considering limits on SUVs crossing the bridge because of their added stress on the structure.
As for connecting any Second Ave. subway line to Nassau St. between Chambers and Canal, any arrangement would probably want to have tracks emerge between the "express" and "local" tracks on both sides, which would give trains the option of terminating/starting on the center tracks at Chambers or south to Broad soouth of the Canal St. J/M/Z station, there would be a scissors crossover, which would permit trains coming off the Willie B the same option of terminating at Chambers or continuing on to Broad.
(Of course, if the MTA ever does find the money for a four-track Second Ave. line, then the cross-platform transfer to the B/D at Canal could be handled by either the express or local tracks, while the other could split off at Delancey and connect up with the Nassau St. line between the Bowery and Canal stations. That would allow for direct access to Manhattan Bridge trains from Second Ave. even if one side of the bridge is closed).
No, only the 2 "local" tracks go south of Chambers St:
By bringing up the 2nd Ave tracks in the center of the 2 local tracks north of Chambers, you retain the flexibility of using Chambers St as a terminal if the train runs straight, or it could switch over to the local track north of the station for continued service down Nassau St. It would eliminate any need for work south of the station, retain Chambers St's ability to be used as a terminal, and the work could be done with no interruption of J/M service if you connect the old Dekalb Ave-bound Manhattan bridge track to the Queensbound track at Canal/Centre.
You know, now that I've read some posts about Chambers St. and the Second Ave. subway, I theorize why Chambers St. was left to slowly deteriorate over the years.
The answer is Chambers St. being the terminus of the 2nd Ave. subway. Since the 2nd Ave. subway has been planned and put off for many decades, the BMT and later the City probably felt that when the 2nd Ave subway was to be built, then Chambers would have to be rehabbed.
We all know that World War II, the need for new rolling stock, the City's fiscal crises and other things put the 2nd Ave. line on the shelf. So can it be safe to say that the dilapidated condition of Chambers St. is visual proof of the delayed construction of a subway line on 2nd Ave. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Could it also be that rehabbing Chambers will be inordinately expensive because you can't just remove the roof and start all over as you can elsewhere? They have to fix the ceiling while the Municipal Building remains in place above.
Grand Central was rehabbed with a bigger structure over it. Rehabbing Chambers St. wouldn't involve compromising load bearing beams.
That still leaves the problem of how to connect the current tail track to the northbound through track leaving Fulton Street.
Should we try and fix the leaks or should we just put pans on top of the grate to catch the drips? Those are toilet lines leaking up there!
wayne
Eeewwwwww!!
Just what we all need - having raw sewage dripping onto that Ellis Island-like ruin.
My plan for Chambers St:
1. Lower the ceilings
2. Wall off the remaining side and the middle platforms up to the new ceiling level. This would create 2 different and seperate 2 track/1 island platforms.
3. Re-tile the new walls in the same brown/green grecian mosaics used at Broad, Fulton & Canal to meld the whole line together.
I say they should feed the trains from Fulton onto the Queens-bound "express" track. They would need to put a switch in. They then should put a wall up along the west side of the current Queens-bound platform, and then abandon it. The current abandoned center platform would become the Queens bound platform. This would make Chambers into a two island platform station with three tracks.
The center track (current Broad St bound "express" track) could be used on weekends when the J terminates at Chambers, or even short runs of the M. This idea would get all of the eyesore abandoned platforms out of view. They could remove all the pink marble and Brooklyn Bridge bas-reliefs from the abandoned side platform and use them on the new wall along the west side of the current Queens platform. They could re-create them for the other wall covering where the west local platform used to be.
Doing that reduces the capacity that Chambers St. could be used as a terminal. I'd like to retail all 4 tracks if possible. That idea would also entail a major service interruption as the track from Fulton and the northbound "express" tracks are at different grades entering the station.
And its a shame, I guess that station is not important. If a 2 Av subway is ever built, it should terminate at Chambers if thats what it takes to improve the station. Maybe a Broadway line-Nassau line connection should make a comeback.
Maybe the uncertain future of the 2nd Ave line is to blame for the lack of work at Chambers. I know it'll never be built, but has any official decision between the Water St. option and the Nassau St. connection been made yet?
According to Joe Brennan, the southbound local platform was mostly destroyed when the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward. My guess is that while there is something behind the wall, its just a shell of the local platform that was there.
A few years ago, they had a door open on the southern mezzanine, and I saw the whole depth of the platform, all thw way beck to the original wall. They made some sort of cable room or something out of it, but at least on that end, the whole platform is still there. On the northern end, the stair connecting to Lexington can be seen going through the new wall, and the passageway seems to be further in than wthe depth of the platform would go, and this runs below the level of the IRT local tracks, so It looks like the whole platform could be there and they just use it for electrical purposes.
Interesting, so there is still some small remnant of the west local platform. I wonder if any of the Brooklyn Bridge picture tables still exist on it.
I wonder if any of the Brooklyn Bridge picture tables still exist on it.
TABLETS, not tables......
Today's Times The Tunnel Vision Column
And a tip of the Selkirk Motorman's cap and a solid brake lapping to the "Master of self-promotion!" CONGRATS, GUY! :)
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/05/nyregion/05TUNN.html
Just remember who to leave it to in your will. Heh.
Congrats to heypaul!
Peace,
ANDEE
[Just remember who to leave it to in your will. Heh.]
Hey, bro, ya gotta to wait ya turn in line...LOL! :)
A BIG Congrats to Paul (once again).
Congrats, Paul!
That cab is sooo cool!
I think Randy Kennedy has your number !
"In a City filled with people who live to work ... he has carefully worked just enough to live exactly the kind of life he wants to have."
Congrags to you my friend !
I met heypaul in October and we spent the afternoon together along with Brighton Express Bob. Yes, Thurston, you assessment on heypaul is correct. He knows what's important in life and what is pure bs. Bob and I liked him right off. He doesn't deal in bullshit and like my other Subtalk buddy, Train Dude, you know where they're coming from from the get-go.
And I thought I'd never understand the people on this board.
Does this rock or what?
Nah. Paul's yet to make it in the 'National Enquirer'. WHEN he does that then he's REALLY made it big...:)
I hear "News of the World" might have a scoop on him now :)
--Mark
"Brooklyn man's shocking story: I was abducted by D Types" ...
And unless you knew what a D-type is, you'd think the guy was referring to aliens from outer space.:)
That's why I suspect we could pitch the story successfully if CERTAIN PEOPLE would keep their yap shut. Heh.
if CERTAIN PEOPLE would keep their yap shut.
Hey, this is SubTalk, not SubShutup, you know!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was TEASING Steve there ... after all, our friends at News Corporation wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a D type and the grand mothership unless someone squealed. :)
Abducted by the Triplexes? You should be so lucky. What a train. I still get chills remembering riding one again in May after so many years. You should have seen Mark Feinmann and I at the railfan window. It was a blast for the ages.
I'll call the Enquirer's tips line and bang ya in then. :)
Best truckload of lunatics I've ever hung out with. :)
I resemble that remark!
Hey, I love skee-ball and the R9, oh boy!!
Apologies if everyone knows about this site. I couldn't find it linked to on nycsubway.org
http://www.dewi.ca/
In particular, there are some stunning photos at:
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/tubes.html
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/trains.html
Plenty else to see on these web pages.
did i see a railfan window on those cars ??.......... wow !
i bet they sounded great !
No, you don't see a railfan window. You see a window looking into your most favourite thing - a TRANSVERSE CAB!
-Robert King
Was surprised to find two local museums featured on the cover of November's Railpace magazine:
- Waterbury/Naugatuck diesel museum. Article inside has several very nice shots of their RS-3 (pulling freight) & FL9s (passenger train).
- Laurel Line Tunnel opening at the Electric City Trolley Museum at Scranton, PA. Article includes many shots of their PTS/Red Arrow Center Door trolley. The article also talks about some potential freight customers along this 19 mile line.
P.S. The read cover shot is a nice one of the trolley inside the tunnel.
*Waterbury/Naugatuck diesel museum*
Isn't that the Danbury RR museum? Or is this something different?
The Railway Museum at Naugatuck is an operating excursion line.
The Railway Museum at Danbury is basically a static museum, which
on occasion charters MN equipment for excursions.
Still haven't seen the November issue of "Railpace". Why Greenpoint,
Brooklyn is considered a foreign country to the USPS. Still awaiting
the October Issue of the BERA Tripper.
;-) Sparky
Does the museum line use the old Naugie ROW for it's run?
Dave,
I'm not that familiar with their operation, so maybe someone else
will chime in.
;-) Sparky
The Naugatuck Railroad is operated by the Railroad Museum of New England, and is not affiliated with the Danbury Railroad Museum. The RMNE website is at (surprisingly enough) www.rmne.org
Frank Hicks
Thanks Frank,
;-) Sparky
Got it yesterday (Tue mail) Sparky.
Seems Paul is back in the saddle again...this time Randy Kennedy apparently got a tour of his establishment. Poor guy...he'll never be the same again! ;)
Jeez, what next? Heypaul on Larry King Live?!
From the article (the emphasis below is mine):
After delving over the years into other research areas — old radios, Greyhound buses, cash registers and Otis elevators — Mr. Kronenberg said last week he had found two new ones that might help supplant his subway obsession.
One is Skee-Ball, the old-fashioned arcade game, a version of which he is considering building intact in his living room. The other, he says, smiling, is a very nice woman from Texas, whom he met recently and who seems to appreciate the very things he appreciates.
You devil, you! Attaboy!! heypaul, heypaul, heypaul .....
But wait, the article further states ....
He is still unsure, however, whether a motorman's cab, a Skee-Ball alley and a new woman friend are completely compatible in the life of just one Brooklyn man: "Something might have to go."
Oh NO - not the cab ... wait, here's a great, er, compromise .... speak to SelkirkTMO about blessing the cab ....
In all seriousness, congrats to heypaul on getting an article all about himself in today's Times.
--Mark
Bingbong and I *already* blessed Heypaul's cab. And Heypaul has the PROFF on VIDEO! :)
Whatever came of the premise to elect heypaul FOR MAYOR?
Such blessed irony he's in the NYT on election day...
I didn't have the time to ride the Green Line light rail during my brief trip to Los Angeles last week, but it does puzzle me a bit. As best I can tell, based on the map and my admittedly incomplete knowledge of the area, the line runs basically from nowhere to nowhere. It doesn't seem particularly useful to commuters and requires a double transfer for those using Metro Link rail. It comes fairly close to the airport but doesn't actually get there, requiring a Howard Beach-esque bus transfer. Is there some point to the line that I'm missing?
You're correct in that the line is functionally unfinished. A branch should have gone straight into LAX (but there are persistent anti-airport political problems with that) and the eastern end doesn't go far enough.
However, the stations along the Century Freeway are useful and would be more useful if the line were finished.
Similarly, the Century Freeway itself is underutilized in part because a key stretch at the end was blocked by NIMBYs.
The whole history of that freeway is nightmarish. The whole project probably took 20 years to build. Environmental impact lawsuits, NIMBY lawsuits, pro-mass transit lawsuits, civil rights lawsuits, corruption, and a whole assortment of issues delayed the "completion" of that freeway.
The inclusion of the Green Line is more the result of compromise than anything else. CALTRANS originally wanted a 10-to-12 lane traditional freeway. To appease the various parties, it was built as a six-lane (with added car-pool lane) highway with a light rail line running down the median.
There are other projects in L.A. with similar histories. The 710 Freeway, for instance, stops abruptly at South Pasadena, then picks up at the intersection of the 210 and 134 at the eastern end of Pasadena. The homeowners in South Pasadena have fought off construction for years, because the freeway would destroy a historic district of Craftsman Victorian homes.
Then there's the aborted Beverly Hills Freeway: The Glendale Freeway ends suddenly east of Dodger Stadium in downtown. It was supposed to have turned east, intersected with the Hollywood Freeway, (the right-of-way for the cloverleaf is clearly visible,) and run parallel to Santa Monica Blvd to the 405 (San Diego) Freeway. Powerful NIMBY interests in Beverly Hills killed that freeway.
One leg of the Red Line Subway in L.A. was stopped far east of its terminus, after a powerful and influential Congressman succeeded in blocking federal funds earmarked fr the project. The excuse used was that pockets of methane gas in the "Miracle Mile" district might cause an explosion similar to one that occured at a department store there in the late 70's. The safety concerns were legitimate, but I suspect NIMBYism had a hand in it, too. Beverly Hills never cared for the subway, and behind-the-scenes manipulation "erased" a proposed station at Crenshaw Blvd. (far east of Beverly Hills) because that station might bring in the (ahem) "element". (L.A., sadly, remains an amazingly segregated city.)
Last but not least: Let's not forget the truncated, little-used Marina Freeway. It runs between a shopping mall in Culver City and Marina Del Rey. It was once called the Richard M. Nixon Freeway. Like his term of office, it was never finished.
One leg of the Red Line Subway in L.A. was stopped far east of its terminus, after a powerful and influential Congressman succeeded in blocking federal funds earmarked fr the project. The excuse used was that pockets of methane gas in the "Miracle Mile" district might cause an explosion similar to one that occured at a department store there in the late 70's. The safety concerns were legitimate, but I suspect NIMBYism had a hand in it, too. Beverly Hills never cared for the subway, and behind-the-scenes manipulation "erased" a proposed station at Crenshaw Blvd. (far east of Beverly Hills) because that station might bring in the (ahem) "element". (L.A., sadly, remains an amazingly segregated city.)
I noticed that the Wilshire Boulevard leg of the Red Line went just a short distance west of the Vermont Ave. split. It seemed odd that the leg would go only as far as Western and then abruptly stop. Now it makes sense. Can't have those people getting easy access to our 'hood, can we?
What I ended up doing in Los Angeles was taking Metro Link from Claremont, near where I was staying, then exploring downtown on foot for a while. I of course wanted to check out the Red Line too. Rather than getting it from downtown, I decided to walk to MacArthur Park and get it there, mainly because I was thinking of that silly song. The MacArthur Park station was okay, but the park itself was really nasty - in a rundown area and absolutely chock full of skells. I ended up taking the Red Line to Hollywood and Vine (another area that's seen better days), and returned to Union Station.
i do remembr the latinio & black communities complaining about how the subway was STEERED AWAY FROM THEM
And how the working average stiffs still have to depend on the rapid bus metro bus santa monica bus lines montebello
bus lins etc..
But the "" los angles red line subway to nowhere "" did not FINISH THE JOB and go to the areas were it was most
needed ! I have some old talk radio tapes i think i will give away that deal with the DIRT ON THE RED LINE ..
the LONG BEACK BLUE LINE however is the most succssful of all of the rail lines here !!
the PASADNA GOLD LINE however will only run to UNION STATION ( not downtown ) & will not ""hook up""
to the BLUE LINE ...but talk about a nice right of way !! very scenic & beautiful !! .....wow !!
I do however feel the RED LINE CARS ......" much better than a r-142"".....sorry folks !!
the hollywood vine area dos take good tourist photography oppertunities !!
the RED LINE stations are a bit too fancy and more could have been done to extend the line much longer !!
( also they should have built the same rail cars used on the BLUE , GREEN , & GOLD lines so they could all
work together ! Also the RED LINE system should have not been all underground !!
"the PASADNA GOLD LINE however will only run to UNION STATION ( not downtown ) & will not ""hook up""
to the BLUE LINE ...but talk about a nice right of way !! very scenic & beautiful !! .....wow !! "
Be grateful for getting even that. The line can be extended later, if there is $$$ and political will for it.
i do remember the latinio & black communities complaining about how the subway was STEERED AWAY FROM THEM
And how the working average stiffs still have to depend on the rapid bus metro bus santa monica bus lines montebello
bus lins etc..
But the "" los angles red line subway to nowhere "" did not FINISH THE JOB and go to the areas were it was most
needed ! I have some old talk radio tapes i think i will give away that deal with the DIRT ON THE RED LINE ..
the LONG BEACK BLUE LINE however is the most succssful of all of the rail lines here !!
the PASADNA GOLD LINE however will only run to UNION STATION ( not downtown ) & will not ""hook up""
to the BLUE LINE ...but talk about a nice right of way !! very scenic & beautiful !! .....wow !!
I do however feel the RED LINE CARS ......" much better than a r-142"".....sorry folks !!
the hollywood vine area dos take good tourist photography oppertunities !!
the RED LINE stations are a bit too fancy and more could have been done to extend the line much longer !!
( also they should have built the same rail cars used on the BLUE , GREEN , & GOLD lines so they could all
work together ! Also the RED LINE system should have not been all underground !!
>>> It seemed odd that the leg would go only as far as Western and then abruptly stop. Now it makes sense. Can't have those people getting easy access to our 'hood, can we? <<<
You have it wrong. Rapid transit was the vision of Tom Bradley and a few other visionaries. There was always a group who said it would be a waste of money because no one (i.e. they) would never ride a subway, and the money could be much better spent on freeways. As the red line progressed, there were cost overruns and serious accidents. Bradley, toward the end of his last term was getting old and was losing his power base. The Wilshire line was cut off because of the claims of transit opponents that tunneling near the La Brea tar pits with all the dinosaur farts (methane) in the area would be dangerous and much more expensive than expected.
The opponents got the upper hand and got the digging stopped by convincing the voters to vote against any more expenditures for subways. It wasn't traditional NIMBYs that stopped the Wilshire line as much as those living in the suburbs not wanting to spend money on the central city.
>>> The MacArthur Park station was okay, but the park itself was really nasty - in a rundown area and absolutely chock full of skells <<<
That is the heart of the infamous Rampart Division. Twenty-five years ago I used to play chess in Mac Arthur Park regularly, but the place went downhill after the freedom loving Marielitos arrived from Cuba and made it their headquarters. Now the south side of the park is mainly Latino immigrants, while the north and west sides have a lot of retirees. Many of the hotels on the east side of the park are halfway houses for convicts on parole. The south side of the park is now filled with drug dealers, stolen goods dealers, phoney document dealers and other assorted lowlifes.
>>> I ended up taking the Red Line to Hollywood and Vine <<<
It's a shame you did not ride further to Universal City. You missed the 70 mph portion of the ride.
Tom
It seemed odd that the leg would go only as far as Western and then abruptly stop. Now it makes sense. Can't have those people getting easy access to our 'hood, can we?
You have it wrong. Rapid transit was the vision of Tom Bradley and a few other visionaries. There was always a group who said it would be a waste of money because no one (i.e. they) would never ride a subway, and the money could be much better spent on freeways. As the red line progressed, there were cost overruns and serious accidents. Bradley, toward the end of his last term was getting old and was losing his power base. The Wilshire line was cut off because of the claims of transit opponents that tunneling near the La Brea tar pits with all the dinosaur farts (methane) in the area would be dangerous and much more expensive than expected.
What doomed the Wilshire line might not have been too many NIMBY's, but not enough YIMBY's. In other words, it sounds as if the support for the line was too lukewarm to overcome opposition. Which isn't to say that the cost overruns and construction problems weren't major issues. They certainly were, but if there had been a big consensus on extending the Red Line to the Westside it probably would have been extended. In addition, I'm not saying that the extension necessarily should have been built. It simply might not have been worth the cost.
The MacArthur Park station was okay, but the park itself was really nasty - in a rundown area and absolutely chock full of skells.
That is the heart of the infamous Rampart Division. Twenty-five years ago I used to play chess in Mac Arthur Park regularly, but the place went downhill after the freedom loving Marielitos arrived from Cuba and made it their headquarters. Now the south side of the park is mainly Latino immigrants, while the north and west sides have a lot of retirees. Many of the hotels on the east side of the park are halfway houses for convicts on parole. The south side of the park is now filled with drug dealers, stolen goods dealers, phoney document dealers and other assorted lowlifes.
Ah, the Rampart Division - brings back memories of Adam 12!
I walked into the north side of the park having come west on Wilshire. Looking around, I thought the south side would be more interesting with its lake. There is a pedestrian tunnel under Wilshire that looked to be the best way of getting there. As I started to enter the tunnel, however, I was immediately assaulted by the stench of Numero Uno, and to make matters worse saw two skells making their contribution to that stench. They weren't even facing the tunnel walls, just standing there right in the middle of the tunnel. Unbelieveable. I decided that my dignity was more important than my safety and chose to take my chances with the traffic on Wilshire. And you are right about the low-lives in the south side of the park. How sad, it could be a very nice park.
By the way, three skells approached me in the park separately and, presumably, begged for money in Spanish (I caught the word "dinero" each time.) Now, I do not look Hispanic any more than the typical Caucasian does, I still can't figure out why they thought I would be Spanish-speaking.
On a happier note, at least the subway station was well-maintained and largely skell-free.
>>> They certainly were, but if there had been a big consensus on extending the Red Line to the Westside it probably would have been extended <<<
You still do not understand. There was never any great popular desire for a subway. Only a few who believed a subway was necessary for L.A. to be a "great" city rather than just a large one. They had the political clout to get it started and it was sustained by those making money from the construction. The original plan did call for it to run farther along Wilshire, but it was cut back by the penny pinchers in the end.
>>> brings back memories of Adam 12! <<<
Many old cop shows on TV such as "Police Story", "Blue Knight" and of course "Adam 12" were shot in that area, particularly in the back alleys.
>>> I walked into the north side of the park having come west on Wilshire <<<
From the route you took, I guess you missed Langer's Deli on the corner of 7th and Alvarado (a left turn from the station). It will probably close when Mr. Langer dies. It is a great deli in the old New York style, but the prices are too high for the neighborhood (the Fresser's Special sandwich is $12.00+, others $8.00+) and not many are willing to go there from out side the neighborhood. At one time it stayed open to 3:00 A.M. seven days a week, and was a great place for a late snack. Now it relies on lunch business only, including downtown workers taking the Red Line to get there, and closes at 4:00 P.M. on weekdays. I know it is closed Sunday, and I believe it is closed on Saturday also.
>>> By the way, three skells approached me in the park separately and, presumably, begged for money in Spanish <<<
It is very possible that they were not begging, but were independent businessmen, and if you had tendered $10-$20, they would have handed you, or signaled someone to bring you, a little baggie of rocks or crank.
Tom
There are other projects in L.A. with similar histories. The 710 Freeway, for instance, stops abruptly at South Pasadena, then picks up at the intersection of the 210 and 134 at the eastern end of Pasadena. The homeowners in South Pasadena have fought off construction for years, because the freeway would destroy a historic district of Craftsman Victorian homes. ?
comment please !!
they can be moved easy !! and you should hear the south pasadena
NYMBYS NUTZ complain about the gold line blowing horns !!
total insanity !
they can be moved easy !!
Obviously you've never been involved in moving a house, or any other building. It is an EXTREMELY expensive proposition, even for a short distance. And in the case of a neighborhood such as the one referenced in South Pasadena, the neighborhood itself is part of what makes the houses worth saving. In another context those houses wouldn't be nearly as significant.
Freeways be damned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
oh come on man !!
( sorry for being slightly off topic )........BUT !!
in the pasadena star news ...( tribune etc..) it was those NYMBYS..
of south pasadena who use everyones elses' highways/freeways etc..
AND THEY SURE DONT MIND USING SOMEONE ELSES FREEWAY / HIGHWAY
THAT RUN THRU ...glendale azuza pasadena arcadia ....etc...
BUT .......now my main man these same NYMBYS now bitch and moan bout'
da' GOLD LINE using horns at railroad crossings ....those s.o.a.b.s!
as for moving houses that was done to all the other areas that the
freeways run thru today ( WHAT IS SO DAMMED SPECIAL ABLOUT S-PAS )
( south pasadena ) ....omg they are such dammmed NYMBYS there !!
I have watched the moving of houses and apartments etc..
remember when this was first done here in southern california ..
Old L.A. ( now a museum of the first homes of los angeles )..is
made up of a lot of em along the pasadena freeway near the river !!
It is a matter of personal opinion as to how much a classic house is
worth ! if south pasadena was just another poor low income area
( with only latinios and blacks and some trailer types etc.. )..
The LONG BEACH 710 FREEWAY would have been completed a long time ago!
south pasadena to me is not even worth it at all !!..the dammed sobs!
there should be no offramps to south pasadena when we do finally build
the 710 and FINISH THE JOB !! ...& asap ...!!
if you think i am bluffing here watch them BITCH AND MOAN about the
GOLD LINE blowing horns at railroad crossings the dammed bastards !
( my opinion about them ) ...
They're not used to trains like we are. The LIRR hasn't hurt Great Neck any (just the opposite; the Port Washington branch helps make Great Neck a preferred community).
yes sir i watched the LIRR running over every crossing blowing horns
in all kinds of neighborhoods ...etc...........
multiple blasts of the horns ! at every crossing ..
no nymbys just passengers getting on and off trains !!
to hell with south pasadena..........aka the gold line ...
lol !!
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the freeway took not 20, but nearly 30 years to build. Some demolition had started along its right-of-way when I moved out here the first time in 1968!
At that time, the aerospace industry maintained a VERY heavy presence at the western end of the line, and for this reason if nothing else, the lien DID have someplace to wind up. North American Rockwell owned much of the property around the Imperial/Aviation station (they were turning out Sabreliner business jets faster than you could imagine). Hughes Aircraft owned most of the property around the next three stations (GM bought Hughes, most of their facilities either relocated or simply closed)-- and TRW was around the last two stations. All these companies are merged with someone else, and the production they did moved elsewhere.
The eastern end of the line goes nowhere due to the NIMBY factor. originally it was to connect with the then-planned Orange County system (which still hasn't turned shovelful number one of dirt thanks to the NIMBY's down here....) There is talk now of extended the Green Line to the Norwalk Metrolink station about three miles from its present terminus, but again, the NIMBY factor is stalling it big time.
On a side note -- those into HO scale trains might find it insteresting, that one of the major manufacturers of HO scale model railroad equipment....Athearn....was one of the first properties to be relocated due to the Century Freeway. Their old plant at 11929 South Western Avenue was located right smack in the middle of the freeway!!
in reference to the green line ?
which runs on the center of the 105 freeway crossesthe blue line
as for orange county i hear there is a link to metrolink....
i would have hooked it up with a transfer station to the blue / green
line instead !
my old man used to work for Hughes Aircraft / TRW back in the 1960s-70s
the plants almost look abandoned today a shadow of what they once
were !!
looking at those places from the green line platforms is something
else !
I worked at Hughes in the mid-1980's - did programming for their business operations unit (procurement stuff). We built the atmospheric probe for Galileo, the radar for the Venus Magellan spacecraft, and a series of GOES weather satellites.
you worked at Hughes in the mid-1980's - ?
wasnt that near TRW ??
>>> The eastern end of the line goes nowhere due to the NIMBY factor. <<<
It wasn't the NIMBY factor that stopped the Green Line as much as the end of the Century Freeway. The Green Line was built on the cheap by routing it along the center of the freeway. The freeway builders did the heavy lifting in obtaining the ROW. In the planning stage it was expected to take workers from the blue collar communities to the aerospace industries south of LAX, removing commuters from the new freeway. Before the line opened, but after too much had been spent to back out, the aerospace industry moved to Texas, and the potential riders disappeared.
At this point, the idea was to cut the losses and build no more, so the western end which had turned south toward Redondo Beach ends unceremoniously at an elevated station with bumper blocks at the end of the track, and a drop to the street beyond them. The biggest attraction at that end is a miniature golf course and video arcade. Although there is a vestal stub turning toward LAX, taking the line to the airport, which is a number of terminals on a horseshoe design would require a subterranean loop to serve the terminals (there are already two levels of auto traffic), and the Green Line does not go to areas (blue collar communities) that most airport travelers want to go to. Buses or vans to downtown, the Valley, and Long Beach and Orange County all would be much faster than taking the Green Line and transferring to the Blue Line. Airport workers do take the Green Line and the free shuttle bus to LAX.
The eastern end is at the end of the freeway about three miles from the Norwalk Metrolink station. The track ends in an open cut below grade level suggesting any extension to the east would be subterranean. But that Metrolink station is really a stop on the route between downtown Los Angeles and Santa Ana, or Riverside. The station is lightly used, and it is hard to imagine that extending the Green Line to that station would increase traffic for either line.
In short, although NIMBYs may have stopped the freeway from going further, it was unwillingness to spend the money necessary and very little bang for the buck that stopped the Green line on both ends.
Tom
catch the G bus doenstairs to LAX ....I took shots of the
" breakaway " that was supposed to go to the LAX airport ...
now they run the siemens P 2000s instead of the shayrop85s
if the green went inside the LAX LIKE IT SHOULD HAVE !!
it would have been a working solution to the transit problems here!
why they 1/2 did this transit thing here is a bummer !!
hard to figure !
You're correct in that the line is functionally unfinished. A branch should have gone straight into LAX (but there are persistent anti-airport political problems with that) and the eastern end doesn't go far enough.
However, the stations along the Century Freeway are useful and would be more useful if the line were finished.
Similarly, the Century Freeway itself is underutilized in part because a key stretch at the end was blocked by NIMBYs. Another reason is that (until recently), the aerospace industry at the airport (Hughes, TRW, Aerospace Corp, Rockwell(now Boeing) etc and its suppliers in Norwalk were sucking eggs instead of orders...
i think i can find out more about the ornage county rail system on
the OCTA page ...
found it the orange county light rail construction page
http://centerline.octa.net/
next one
http://centerline.octa.net/press/maps.asp
hmmm... they used to have a digital station 2 station photo
re-creations ...glad i downloaded when it was running !!
i do have it on a photo CD ...
...oh well .....................lol
I have to make a trip today from downtown Manhattan to the Bronx. I plan to use the 5 train to the Morris Park station.
I have a couple of questions about the trip:
1) Do all 5 trains go to Dyre Avenue during the midday hours?
2) How long should the trip be from Fulton Street station to Morris Park?
Thanks.
Easily answered from the schedules on the MTA web site.
Looks like all mid-day trains (all 6 per hour) go to Dyre.
55 min Bowling Green to Dyre Ave. (adjust accordingly)
5 trains go to Dyre Ave at all times.
Except when some go to 238th St.
You have a point.
But Mitch45 was talking about
midday.
Servive to 238 St is
rush hours only.
with one exception, the 8:59 Utica (proving that the <5> has ran outside of rush hours)
0859 is still within TA limits for 'rush hour.'
Up until sometime this year there WAS one 5 train that did go to 238 Street at around 10:13 am from Utica Avenue at 8:59. The redbirds being officially eliminated from the #2 line probably destroyed that special run. The ONLY 238 Street #5 scheduled to stop at Bronx local stops, like Simpson Street, etc.
Up until sometime this year there WAS one 5 train that did go to 238 Street at around 10:13 am from Utica Avenue at 8:59. The redbirds being officially eliminated from the #2 line probably destroyed that special run. The ONLY 238 Street #5 scheduled to stop at Bronx local stops, like Simpson Street, etc.
Somehow it is still on the schedule(for some reason), if you want to check
The Mutilingual edition of the the September 2002 The Map is now making its way into circulation and instead of having a red tint on the cover like the previous versions, it has a light green tint.
So now we have the regular version - Blue, Multilingual version - Green.
And here I thought it was already November.
As promised, here it is. If you were there and don't see your name listed, please respond, especially if you had handle time on 1689. I will submit this to Dave Pirmann once everything is straight. Also, please advise if you prefer to be referred to as something other than what appears here. Happy reading!
The first Subtalk Day at the Shoreline Trolley Museum was held on Sunday, October 13, 2002. A fairly large group of regular Subtalk posters attended on what was for the most part a gray, dreary, drizzly day. R-9 1689, specially chartered for the day, was the main attraction. TARS 629 and Montreal’s 2001 carried regular paying guests.
The day began for most Subtalkers with breakfast at the Twin Pines diner not far from the museum. From there it was off to the Sprague Building, where we parked and went inside. The staff members and operators changed into their uniforms while the rest of us either took in the subway interlocking signal in the lobby or filled out membership paperwork. Once all was ready, we walked along the track to the barn area, where the first order of business was to rouse 1689 from its peaceful slumber. The car looked terrific! Kevin McAleavey aka Selkirk TMO, who once operated the R-1/9s as a motorman on the IND D line, raised its trolley pole and went through his favorite motorman’s ritual of flipping switches and circuit breakers and as he did, 1689 came to life. He also took the time to answer questions about the car in general. The last step was to set the marker lights on the end facing the barn door to green-green, the proper combination for a D train running express in the Bronx. While waiting for the car to charge up, R-17 6688 was brought out of its barn with Kevin’s wife, Nancy aka Bingbong, at the controls under the watchful eye of Lou (from Brooklyn) Levinson, our expert instructor for the day. Unlike 1689, 6688 was not chartered; it was brought out so that we Subtalkers could have a closer look at it. Once 6688 was parked, Lou and Nancy joined us aboard 1689, which by then was all charged up and ready to roll. Lou slowly nudged the 42-ton car out of the barn and after a series of reverse moves, stopped it by the high-level loading platform near the barn area known as Avenue L, so named after a former station on the Canarsie line which no longer exists. We waited for our turn to proceed onto the mainline and once we got the go-ahead from dispatcher John “Sparky” Sikorski, we were on our way with Lou at the controls. It was great to hear those all-too-familiar sounds again: the moaning, groaning spur-cut bull and pinion gears, the throbbing compressor, the snarl and hiss along with the accompanying “tch-ssss” magnet valve sound as the brakes were applied, and the sounds of the doors as they opened and closed. For this author, it was a trip back in time to when these cars still carried revenue passengers in New York on the IND and in later years, the BMT’s Eastern Division.
We returned to Avenue L, and because we had to wait while a streetcar carrying paying guests made a round trip, most of us walked over to 6688. We boarded through one of the storm doors via a portable wooden stairway. Inside, the car looked great. The cab doors were open, and it afforded an opportunity to check out the breakers and especially the lever-style door controls up close. Thurston (Mr. R T) Clark produced a door key, and those of us who wanted to work the doors had a chance to do so. Then it was time for a group picture (one of many taken that day), and some who had cameras had a chance to put the self timer feature to use for the first time! Because of the rain and drizzle, 6688 was put away shortly afterwards because it was in the process of being repainted and had only a coat of primer.
The noon hour had arrived and some went to get lunch while others went for a ride on one of the streetcars. A few of us rode on TARS (Third Avenue Railway System) 629, operated by Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse. Several people got a rare glimpse at the Mineola, August Belmont’s private subway parlor car which at this time needs major restoration and is not normally accessible by the general public.
By this time, the mainline was ours once again, and we reboarded 1689. Now the fun part began: handle time for Subtalkers! Everyone who either joined the museum as a member that day or contributed to the cost of the charter had an opportunity to operate the car under Lou’s supervision. This went on all afternoon between streetcar runs. All in all, 1689 made a total of nine round trips – more than on any other day it was operated. Kudos to Lou for his limitless patience and expert instruction!
The list of attendees reads like a who’s who on Subtalk: Steve Bulota aka Steve B 8AVEXP; Doug Diamond aka BMTman; Thurston Clark; Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse; Lou Levinson aka Lou from Brooklyn; John “Sparky” Sikorski aka John S., Harry Beck, webmaster of www.nycrail.com featuring The Other Side of the Tracks; Kevin and Nancy McAleavey aka SelkirkTMO and bingbong; Jeff Rosen aka Sgt. Jeff; Joe Roth; Jeff H., resident technical expert par excellence; Bill Newkirk, whose subway calendar photos receive rave reviews; Subway Surf (Andee); Mike Fendrich; David Cole; Larry Fendrick aka Notchit along with his girlfriend Marie (Notchette) and her daughter, Deanna; Piotr from Poland; Larry Redbird R-33, who possesses a wealth of NYC transit trivia; CI Peter aka On the Juice; RIPTA42Hope Tunnel aka Mike; Bob and Linda Andersen.
Because of the number of attendees, handle time was limited to either an outbound or an inbound run. Eventually, handle time was rationed to quarter-runs; i. e., two people per outbound or inbound run. Even the streetcar operators had some handle time. Once the museum had closed to the public for the day, Subtalk Day participants were treated to a cake baked by Chris Leverett and served aboard 1689. As always, all good things come to an end, and after one last group picture including the operators and dispatcher, it came time to put 1689 back in its barn and close up for the night. We made our way back to the Sprague Building, where museum staff personnel changed out of their uniforms. Then it was off to an Italian dinner for a dozen of us at Aniello’s Pizza located in Trolley Square near the museum before going our separate ways. The consensus opinion was that a good time was had by all and that this event should be continued in the future.
A special thanks also to Sparky for keeping things going smoothly and efficiently all day long from his dispatcher’s post.
Nice Job Steve,
A couple of quickie comments.
>>>"Now the fun part began: handle time for Subtalkers! Everyone who either joined the museum as a member that day or contributed to the cost of the charter had an opportunity to operate the car under Lou’s supervision."<<<
The minimum requirement for Handle Time for members was a regular or higher category of membership.
Also you had to be a member of the museum & contributor to ride the Charter. This priveledge was not accorded to visitors or museum members.
Also please note that the operating staff at the museum [the penguins] were also contributors to the costs, there were no freebies. We all shared the costs. Thanks guys.
;-) Sparky
I stand corrected on all of this. Thanks for pointing it out. I will make changed where needed.
I realy fine report, I have only one very small point to make, we refer to Piort as Piort the Pole because of his skill at turning the pole AND his national origin.
Wait a minute ... being the one who gave him the monicker,
it is correctly "Peter The Pole". And watch that stuff about
Polski's and Poles.
;-) Sparky
Thanks.
I just read the thread
Peter The Pole
Piotr,
Nima Zaco.
;-) Sparski
Here is my subsequent draft with corrections suggested by several of you. Thanks for your input and feedback. Give it a once over if you would, please. Again, if you have a preference as to how you would like to be referred to, speak now or forever hold your peace. I will be submitting my report to Dave Pirmann next week. An abridged version will appear in The Tripper. Note: my handle time account is based on Lou's instructions. Lou, feel free to chime in if you see anything inaccurate. Kev, your comments are welcome, too.
The first Subtalk Day at the Shoreline Trolley Museum was held on Sunday, October 13, 2002. A fairly large group of regular Subtalk posters attended on what was for the most part a gray, dreary, drizzly day. R-9 1689, specially chartered for the day, was the main attraction. TARS 629 and Montreal’s 2001 carried museum visitors, with Johnstown Traction Company 357 and Connecticut Company 775 making one trip apiece.
The charter was open specifically to those who were both museum members and contributors to the cost of the charter. The operating staff also contributed to the cost.
The day began for most Subtalkers with breakfast at the Twin Pines diner not far from the museum. From there it was off to the Sprague Building, where we parked and went inside. The staff members and operators changed into their uniforms while the rest of us either took in the subway interlocking signal in the lobby or filled out membership paperwork. Once all was ready, we walked along the track to the barn area, where the first order of business was to rouse 1689 from its peaceful slumber. The car looked terrific! Kevin McAleavey aka Selkirk TMO, who once operated the R-1/9s as a motorman on the IND D line, raised its trolley pole and went through his favorite motorman’s ritual of flipping switches and circuit breakers and as he did, 1689 came to life. He also took the time to answer questions about the car in general. The last step was to set the marker lights on the end facing the barn door to green-green, the proper combination for a D train running express in the Bronx. While waiting for the car to charge up, R-17 6688 was brought out of its barn with Kevin’s wife, Nancy aka bingbong, at the controls under the watchful eye of Lou (from Brooklyn) Levinson, our expert instructor for the day. Unlike 1689, 6688 was not chartered; it was brought out so that we Subtalkers could have a closer look at it. Once 6688 was parked, Lou and Nancy joined us aboard 1689, which by then was all charged up and ready to roll. Lou slowly nudged the 42-ton car out of the barn toward the reverse loop track. After we passed the barn spur switch, we reversed direction. Nancy threw the switch and Kevin took over the controls at the other end of the car, piloting it down the mainline past Narrangansett Siding. Once again we reversed direction, and after the switch to the the high-level loading platform was thrown, Lou brought the car to a stop at the platform. It’s a station setup named Avenue L, so named after a former station on the Canarsie line which no longer exists. We waited for our turn to proceed onto the mainline and once we got the go-ahead from dispatcher John “Sparky” Sikorski, we were on our way with Lou at the controls. It was great to hear those all-too-familiar sounds again: the moaning, groaning spur-cut bull and pinion gears, the throbbing compressor, the snarl and hiss along with the accompanying “tch-ssss” magnet valve sound as the brakes were applied, and the sounds of the doors as they opened and closed. For this author, it was a trip back in time to when these cars still carried revenue passengers in New York on the IND and in later years, the BMT’s Eastern Division.
We returned to Avenue L, and because we had to wait while a streetcar carrying paying guests made a round trip, most of us walked over to 6688. We boarded through one of the storm doors via a portable wooden stairway. Inside, the car looked great. The cab doors were open, and it afforded an opportunity to check out the breakers and especially the lever-style door controls up close. Thurston (Mr. R T) Clark produced a door key, and those of us who wanted to work the doors had a chance to do so. Then it was time for a group picture (one of many taken that day), and some who had cameras had a chance to put the self timer feature to use for the first time! Because of the rain and drizzle, 6688 was put away shortly afterwards because it was in the process of being repainted and had only a coat of primer.
The noon hour had arrived and some went to get lunch while others went for a ride on one of the streetcars. A few of us rode on TARS (Third Avenue Railway System) 629, operated by Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse. Several people got a rare glimpse at the Mineola, August Belmont’s private subway parlor car which at this time needs major restoration and is not normally accessible by the general public.
By this time, the mainline was ours once again, and we reboarded 1689. Now the fun part began: handle time! This was an exclusive privilege offered to museum members of regular or higher category of membership. Because of the high turnout, handle time was limited to either an outbound or an inbound run. Eventually, handle time was rationed to quarter-runs; i. e., two people per outbound or inbound run. Even the streetcar operators had some handle time. This went on all afternoon under Lou’s supervision between streetcar runs. All in all, 1689 made a total of nine round trips – more than on any other day it was operated. Kudos to Lou for his limitless patience and expert instruction!
Handle time was something like this: hold the controller down while in the coast position with your right hand and move the reverse key forward with your left hand. At this point the side destination signs illuminate. Now without letting up on the controller, hold the handle down with your left hand and release the brakes with your right hand. Check to make sure you have a clear track and give two toots on the whistle. Move the controller to switching (first point) and as the car picks up speed, peg it up to series (second point). Cut power before reaching the first curve and coast through it. Reapply power after clearing the curve and cut it once again before the insulating block. Listen for the click, then reapply power once again. Now we're on the straightaway headed directly for Narrangansett Siding. Peg it up to parallel (third point) and feel the car accelerate. Keep an eye out for anyone or anything near the track at all times. Take a reduction as you approach the switch. Lap. Repeat as needed to bring the car to a full stop. Once the switch is set for diverging, move the controller to switching and once the car gets moving, cut power and coast to the platform, applying the brakes as before for a (hopefully) perfect alignment along Avenue L. Whew!
If we were in New York, there would be a two-buzz highball from the conductor before proceeding, signifying the doors are closed and locked. 1689's buzzer still works and was used for highballs on outbound runs.
The list of attendees reads like a who’s who on Subtalk: Steve Bulota aka Steve B 8AVEXP; Doug Diamond aka BMTman; Thurston aka Mr. rt; Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse; Lou Levinson aka Lou from Brooklyn; John “Sparky” Sikorski aka John S., Harry Beck, webmaster of www.nycrail.com featuring The Other Side of the Tracks; Kevin and Nancy McAleavey aka SelkirkTMO and bingbong; Jeff Rosen aka Sgt. Jeff; honorary Subtalker Joe Roth; Jeff H., resident technical expert par excellence; Bill Newkirk, whose subway calendar photos receive rave reviews; Subway Surf (Andee); Mike Fendrich; David Cole; Larry Fendrick aka Notchit along with his girlfriend Marie (Notchette) and her daughter, Deanna; Peter the Pole aka NJCoastExp; Larry Redbird R-33, who possesses a wealth of NYC transit trivia; CI Peter aka On the Juice; Mike Pompili aka RIPTA42Hope Tunnel; Bob and Linda Andersen, and Jeff Babbitt, who had handle time on 2001.
Once the museum had closed to the public for the day, Subtalk Day participants were treated to a cake baked by Chris Leverett and served aboard 1689. As always, all good things come to an end, and after one last group picture which included the operators and dispatcher, it came time to put 1689 back in its barn and close up for the night. We made our way back to the Sprague Building, where museum staff personnel changed out of their uniforms. Then it was off to an Italian dinner for a dozen of us at Aniello’s Pizza located in Trolley Square near the museum before going our separate ways. The consensus opinion was that a good time was had by all and that this event should be continued in the future.
A special thanks also to Sparky for keeping things going smoothly and efficiently all day long from his dispatcher’s post.
AMEN.
;-) Sparky
Small, teeny tiny detail - Unca Lou raised the pole for 1689 ... but otherwise, nice and lengthy bro. :)
Thanks, I'll fix it. Lou must have opened 1689's barn and gone to fetch 6688 right away.
Yep ... that's pretty much how it went. I didn't know where the trolley pole was or whether I should put it up, so I waited until Unca Lou came back. I imagine he expected I'd just raise it, but I didn't want to do that without supervision just in case there was a procedure I wasn't aware of. Worked out nicely for Nancy though, she got to roll out a redbird and she loved every minute of it. :)
looks great!
thanks for the efforts
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
Just moving any trainset more than five feet out of 'powertest' was an absolute priviledge and honor. Some of the 239th and 180th crew gave me the biz..'Well, I know how to....' but they never did. I prefer self lapping brakes...you can release the brake handle and watch your DVD!!! BTW: today the garbage roll-off had a surprise...a dozen brake slack adjuster tools had been tossed in..I got two...and they will be modified IF they do not 'walk' from my rolling tool crib. CI Peter
Manual lapping brakes ain't so bad ... unlike the old BMT, you get to exercise the same hand that would get you in TROUBLE if someone on the platform saw you using that hand for "other purposes" ... one of these days, TWU will go for that darker covering for cab glass like they've got on many limos these days ... it's make every crossover in the SYSTEM a "JO interlocking." :)
I know THAT hand...it is the very same one observed in action at 239th being used in a transverse cab when I started in TA. Bombardier should have used polarised window glass.
That hand gets REAL strong in government service. :)
Excellent report!
A correction and an addendum: MikeF is Fraser, not Fendrich, and avid reader said he was there but worshipped, er, observed from afar.
Too bad he didn't acknowledge his presence.
Gone back to lurking here, but I saw a smile on his face most of that day ;-)
I just downloaded BVE and already IM Having problems. Every time I
play this message comes up saying "this program has been performing
illegal actions and must be terminated." I have had this problem
before with the same program and I have tried everything. Uninstalling it, scanning for
viruses, everything. If it helps I have a Compaq presario 5304, 4 GB of memory total, 64mb ram, 512k pipeline burst cache, made in 1999. Can
someone e-mail me and help me?
Thanks in Advance
BTW: To LuchAAA, Your partially right about the Second Avenue line. Only the 4 and 5 run above subway capacity, but I still stick by what I say (If anyone remembers what I said).
That should be MORE than enough "computer", might be a bad install or something's missing.
Suggest checking THIS page:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_tshoot.htm
The site at large should hopefully have the answers. It's most likely that you don't have "DirectX" installed or didn't collect all the needed files. Full explanation of how to install and then enjoy BVE can be found here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Good luck with BVE. It sounds like a cool program. But all graphic-intensive program cause problems from time to time with different hardware (even things as "standard" as Microsoft Flight Simulator (which I admit to liking).
"BTW: To LuchAAA, Your partially right about the Second Avenue line. Only the 4 and 5 run above subway capacity, but I still stick by what I say (If anyone remembers what I said). "
No, he's not, actually. He's misrepresenting the state of the line. And even if he were, the 4 and 5 being over-capacity is only half the problem. The other half is the Lex doesn't serve anyone on the Far East Side, either above or below 63rd Street.
I had BVE but had to take it out of my computer, since it seemed to be crashing with the new AOL 8.0.
It was a great program, but anything that lets you blow through red and keep going, isn't realistic enough for me.
Might wanna complain to the author about that then. FWIW, you can get past reds on a REAL railroad too ya know. :)
But not on the subway. The NYC subway layouts lacked grade timers and train stopping from passing RED signals.
Well, do bear in mind that BVE is a RAILROAD simulator, not rapid transit and the authors for the subway routes did as much as they could with the way the graphics engine was designed. I can live with it. After all, even if you don't get tripped on the subway, you pass a red, you're done so you just DON'T.
I look at it as authorized key-by if I do. :)
"And even if he were, the 4 and 5 being over-capacity is only half the problem. The other half is the Lex doesn't serve anyone on the Far East Side, either above or below 63rd Street. "
Well, it serves them -- it just doesn't serve them very well. I used to live at 91/York and remember way too many 15-20 minute cold/rainy walks over to 86/Lex. Of course, that was 1996 and pre Metrocard bus/subway transfer but there's still nothing* other than the Lex.
CG
* - Well, almost nothing. Since the bus/subway transfer was implemented, there are many more east-siders who take the bus across the park and take the CPW lines down. This seems to occur more with the M79 than the M86, but the number isn't trivial.
Also try opening the directX diagnosis (start>run>dxdiag) and click on the sound tab. Look at your "Hardware sound acceleration level" Try turning it down a level or two or three, depending on if BVE keeps crashing. I had a similar problem, and thats how I fixed it.
Hey all,
I just got to school, on the way in I managed a ride on one of PATCO's original double ended Budd trains (the first cars, #101-125, IIRC). I shoulda grabbed the RFW, or the one of the two seats behind it (the third back is great, good view out the front, and a good view of the T/Os position, assuming he doesn't draw the curtain), but didn't realize that one was open until we were almost in Haddonfield, so two other people grabbed them when we pulled in there.
Anyway, on to my question, has anyone ridden car #102, it really is pretty different. The panels above the doors are rounded in this very strange manner, not like the flat panels on every other car, and the lights indicating door closures and openings were these strange yellow warning lights, mounted on the frame next to the door, also the bells didn't seem to work, the one faded in and out, while the one that I assume was for the other set of doors would work at one station, then not work at another, at those times I could hear the other car's bells working.
One last thing, does anybody ever remember seeing a double ended car working solo? I've seen the photo of one at the bottom of the PATCO section on this site, was that car inservice, or was it an extra movement?
I haven't noticed recently, but years ago when I could see PATCO from my house in Collingswood, single cars running solo were common on Sundays.
I do recall seeing a 'different' car in my infrequent trips on PATCO, with the different indicator lights ringing a bell (no pun intended) in my mind. Whether the warning bell is different is a different matter - I've been told that the system often shorts, especially in cold and wet weather, and I've experienced this on many different runs, conceivably on many different cars.
Single-car operation is another topic. PATCO ran the singles in overnight and Sunday/holiday service from the beginning up until the late 80's, I believe. When the Vickers cars arrived in '80, they became the mainstays of base service and the Budd cars were relegated to second-class status, more or less. The Budds were rehabbed in the mid/late 80's but the singles still stayed in peak-hour only service. I recall that many Ferry Ave shorts usually ran 4/6-car solid trains of singles. For at least the last 10 years the minimum size train on PATCO is 2 cars.
The singles also have the single-leaf door directly behind the operator stand. This was originally to be used in off hours when fare gates would be opened and riders would pay fares on the trains, collected by the operators (similar to Cleveland). I don't believe this ever happened, although the single doors did get used from time to time. I saw this happen when employees were picked up at the tower adjacent to Broadway station (in the open cut, there is a small 'platform' of sorts for this purpose) - the operator would spot the single door at the platform and pick up/drop off riders there, usually opening the door with his key rather than from the control stand.
The first time I rode PATCO is was a signle car -- on New Years Eve, 1981.
PATCO has not used single cars in operation in at least ten years. I believe the reason they stopped using the cars were due to excessive failures with the double-ended cars. After midnight, PATCO will run two single cars connected together with the rear car powered down. Therefore if the lead car fails, they can operate from the rear car. Sounds plausible, I wonder if that situation has ever occurred?
You are wrong, they still use single cars as demand dictates and I have been on and seen many single car trains since 1992. Until recently they usually only used single cars on Sunday nights. Just recently I heard a crew mentioning that they now run double cars all the time due to the decreased headways from the tie repair project.
they now run double cars all the time due to the decreased headways from the tie repair project.
Here's a recent photo of the PATCO tie replacement project, taken on Oct 27 on my way home from the Rockhill Trolley Museum's SEPTA Route 23 PCC charter.
I "accidentally" stumbled onto this one which is probably required reading for everyone on this board.
How We Got to Coney Island: The Development of Mass Transportation in Brooklyn and Kings County, by Brian Cudahy, due December 2002
And has anyone heard of this book, listed as "just published", that is currently up for bids on eBay? The Brooklyn and Queens Transit by Harold K. Smith and Frederick Kramer
--Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the heads up. The "How We Get To Coney Island" on Amazon,
is a good deal with pre-publication pricing.
As for the B&QT, Kramer's books usually show up at my favored
"Trolley Museum" and I expect this one will also. If it doesn't
it's "shame ~ shame" on somebodies "six".
;-) Sparky
Sparky, the B&QT is for sale at Branford. Karen said they just received it. I thumbed through it between operating trips and it had some excellent pictures. I will probably purchase a copy even though I'm really an RT fan.
I'm pretty sure I've seen the B&QT book at Barnes & Noble on Staten Island, so your local B&N may have it also.
Thanks Sarge,
I'm on one of my "keep the chief dispatcher" happy interims, so I
haven't been visual at my favorite "Trolley Museum" of late.
Will pick it up on the sixteenth. It's a must have for all
B&QT Trolleynauts and endorsed by a RTnaut.
;-) Sparky
Mark, I have the B&QT book in front of me as I write this. I purchased it at the Gaithersburg Show on Sunday.
It is an 80 page book, packed with b & w photos of trolleys. There is very little text with the book concentrating on the photos and picture captions. The pictures seem to be of excellent quality. I paid 3/4 of the starting bid price shown in the eBay auction.
Karl B,
Thanks for the heads up. The price start on ebay is most likely
suggested list price, which for a new book is bullsheet. Well
after the piece on 60 Minutes Sunday, they say you can & will
sell anything on ebay. Well, its buyer beware.
May not get as deep a discount as you received, but have to support
my local "Trolley Museum". And of coarse the communist state
of constipation charges you sales tax also. Have to feed those
greedy son of female dogs. >G<
;-) Sparky
Sparky, Knowing of your interest in trolley pictures, I think you will really like this book!
Karl,
I likely will, just hoping there will be some pictures from
Brooklyn North, besides Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza. In the
early forties, there were some great lines that served that
section of the borough. Haven't been too successful in
locating same.
;-) Sparky
Thanks for the heads up, Karl ... I don't intend to bid on it on eBay especially since I know it just came out. But I will purchase it.
--Mark
Mark,
At least we know you aren't the person who opened the bidding on Ebay.
;-) Sparky
Still only one bid, twenty four hours later.
;-) Sparky
That should be a good book. One of Brian Cudahy's other books, "Under the Sidewalks of New York", is a great book for anyone needing "Subway 101". When I first started college, and was first really interested in the subway, my college library had the original 1970's version of that book. So many questions I had were answered in that book, especially knowing very little history about the subway at the time. Then I found the reprint version a few years later at the transit museum gift shop.
If you can read german, here's another new one:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3861532743/qid=1036617031/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_18_1/028-6886578-8863704
yeap, that's a peter dougherity photo of city hall stop on the cover. i've got 3 of my own in there...
-joe
I might try to get the book if I can. It might be interesting to see how the transit system in Brooklyn developed
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff,
Using a CC, it can be pre-ordered from Amazon.Com at the pre-publication price plus $3.99 shipping for the softcover version.
That's the route to go, if you really want it, that is.
;-) Sparky
The hardcover edition to this book is already out ... it's $45.00 at Amazon.
--Mark
Thanks, but I'll wait for the soft cover and expend the differential
on something more lucrative. I have something in mind.
;-) Sparky
Still only the single bidder on ebay with 68 hits.
;-) Sparky
SF MUNI PCC # 1060, the Newark Public Service Car, derailed around two this morning as it made the left turn from Steuart Street onto Market. No passengers were aboard the car as it jumped off of the tracks and plowed into a light pole alongside the Hyatt-Regency Hotel at the foot of Market. SFFD paramedics transported the operator to San Francisco General Hospital after he complained of back pain. He was later treated and released. MUNI crews removed the damaged car from the sidewalk and towed it to Geneva Barn around 5:00am local time. The mishap did not affect morning service. 1060 was making its final run of the night when the crash occurred and it was not carrying any passengers. No word yet on what caused the accident. TV station KRON reports the car is quote "Totaled". It sustained major damage to the right side between the front and rear doors.
George Devine, Jr.
San Francisco, CA
Well, that makes four of the fourteen cars now out of service due to accidents.
The Brooklyn car got quite banged up with it hit a truck a couple months back. The Kansas City car rear ended another one, rendering both useless.
It's a good thing Muni found four of their own original 1000 series cars up near Lake Tahoe, and bought back the two that were rotting at the Orange Empire Railway Musem in southern California!!
"It's a good thing Muni found four of their own original 1000 series cars up near Lake Tahoe, and bought back the two that were rotting at the Orange Empire Railway Musem in southern California!! '
I am a family member of that fine museum and they are doing an excellnt job of rail car restoration (s)!!
and on thier entire fleet fine rail museum pieces including PE Blimps nad Lary narrow gaug cars !!
and being on the desert they do not rot away ! A MUST VISIT FOR ANY EASTCOASTER !!
Those MUNI cars at OERM have been there for years and haven't had a thing done to them. At leastnow something WILL be done now that they are going back to San Francisco.
allright then thank the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM for saving them from scrap !! i have seen them on the center tracks waithing to be restored ! they can only do so much at a time there it is not like they are filthy rich and have unlimited funds there !!
everybody is a volunteer there ....
Just to let you know, the two OERM PCC's haven't been moved to San Francisco yet, and I'm not even sure the sale is finalized.
Frank Hicks
oh really ! well then they are still parked on the center tracks of
the museum area near where the PE Blimps are stored along with the
other PE Cars etc..a gang of PCC type equipment all waiting thier
turn for restoration ! Also there is a nice "Bullet High Speed Car"
man that sucker is slick !! ( nice )
I feel comfortable everytime i am out there surrounded up close by all
of that railroad and rail transit museum classic pieces !!
An excellent place for photographers to go crazy shooting off still shots and the nighbt events out there in da' desert is an adventure in
itself ! I am glad i am a family member !!
They have quite a number of PCC restorables at the largest western rail museum ...I beleive the illinios museum is the #1 Largest
how bout this train dude ??
That is the best way for railfans to practice their hobby. Restrictions on civil liberties will only get worse as the war goes on. Al-Qa'ida is sure to respond to our VAPORIZING those six pig terrorists in Yemen. Today's realities call for railfans to work closely with their museums and gain opportunities to earn ALL ACCESS to rail operations. Trade in your cameras for work clothes and a GOOD set of tools. I did that 15 years ago and have NEVER looked back. Railfan window, Heck, I ride IN THE CAB OF AN >>>E8<<< ***LEGALLY*** during excursions, My EXPERTISE is NEEDED there. foamers can go play with their cameras, we MAKE E8s GO, hauling mommies and daddies riding the CHOO-CHOO and watching foamers chase us in cars breaking traffic laws and NEVER buying a ticket.
watching foamers chase us in cars breaking traffic laws and NEVER buying a ticket.
It's amazing that more accidents are not caused by that.
On a similar note, while on the subject of taking photography almost to extremes: A few years ago I went on a "Farewell to the old LIRR diesels" fantrip. It was one of the old diesels that they ran on some of the electric branches. It started at West Hempstead, and by the end of the trip we were headed to Long Beach. There were a few photo stops along the way. But one of the funniest scenes (or spectacle actually) happened at the Island Park station. A photo stop was scheduled there. The scene of this and the motorists at the grade crossing at the station was priceless. Here they were, just stopping at the gates for what they thought would be a normal station stop. But this train pulls in, stops at the station and hundreds of people holding cameras, tripods, etc come running off the train and start setting tripods up in the middle of the street and everywhere around the stopped motorist's cars, along the tracks, etc. People came out of the stores there and all of a sudden there seemed to be people everywhere - and jumping in front of cars, etc. It was as if Island Park was under seige! Of course you could image that tensions started to flair when the motorists figured out that their seemingly normal 1 or 2 minute grade crossing stop was not going to be over very quick, especially with tripods in front of their cars. A lot of choice words started getting yelled out and horns were blowing. But people just continued to just stand anywhere. The tripods all over the middle of the street is a vision I will never forget. Finally it was decided to make everyone move out of the road and hold open the gates to allow the motorists to go through.
It just amazed me that seemingly intelligent people would think it was a good idea to just jump off of a train, and instead of using common sense, and getting out of the road, and off to the side, out of the way, just set up in the middle of the road!
All in all it was a fun trip, and the rest of the photo run-bys seemed a bit less chaotic, but I always get a smirk when I think of the Island Park station and what all those people around the station must have thought when that train stopped and all those people jumped off the train and pured into the street.
It started at West Hempstead
Oopps, I meant it started WITH West Hempstead, meaning the branch, not the station.
Actually, truth be told I think, IIRC, the train started at Jamaica, then the Port Washington Branch, and then to West Hempstead....not that it makes much of a difference.
I was on that trip, that scene was a scream. The townsfolk had never seen anything like this before, and they were not happy. My wife was with me, and she likes to bring up the foamer story every once in a while.
Similar was the last PCC day at Newark, foamers were all over the place, almost getting run over at the grade crossings, hanging off bridges, climbing on stuff. And they got really mad if you walked into their shot.
And they got really mad if you walked into their shot.
I remember my first "fantrip". It was also on the LIRR. It was a mixed consist of gondola cars and passenger cars behind the two MU Penn Station protect engines 102 and 104. We got to ride out all the way out to Greenport in the Gondola cars "open-air". It was so much fun.
The first photo runby was at Calverton. I didn't even know what a photo run-by was. I didn't realize people took this so seriously. I accidently walked in front of someone's shot when I was taking some photos, and at the end of the runby was almost given death threats by the person. I thought to myself this guy is nuts! It almost ruined the entire day for me! Then I figured it was him that was nuts and taking it way to seriously, and luckily just shrugged it off. There's a fine line between getting a good shot and fanaticism.
i can still shoot on the los angeles MTA system., However i will restrict my operations to digital stills only !
i have a contractors badge and i.d. so they wont bother me .
( metrolink commuter trains excluded )...oh well.............!
>>> That is the best way for railfans to practice their hobby <<<
Wait a minute! Who are you to define the best way for rail fans to practice their hobby. Some may have no interest in restoring old equipment and want to see, ride on and photograph modern equipment in revenue service. If you get your jollies by working on and operating old equipment, more power to you, but that is not somehow more pure or superior to one who travels all over the world to travel on and photograph different rail systems.
Tom
old tom i like doing both.!! the old and the new !!
old wine in new bottle ?
OLD tom, Railfans who continue to do it the old way will face increasing harrassment from the authorities. The voters have spoken in Tuesday's election. They want strong homeland security and the Bush Administration and hundreds of new right wing judges will see to it that police/railroads have the power they need to basically shut down camera toting railfans. Without foamer interference and the bad reputation which it gives railbuffs in railroad circles, a museum can work with railroads in the areas of PR and donations of material,supplies and railroad equipment Photographers and trespassers make so much bad will that it limits ehe credibility of the museum movement. Last week I saw a picture of a U-25-B locomotive, a nearly extinct model of diesel. This photo was obviously taken from the top of a train on an adjacent track. If railfans did not do STUPID things like that, there would certainly be more examples of GE's first road diesel in museums, now all we got are some STUPID photos. Talk about the BOOBY prize. GO RAILROAD POLICE, Railfans should be sentenced to community service at the local rail museum. NOW THAT'S REHABILITATION.
Well then, the thing to do is to organize into a recognizable group that can demonstrate to the appropriate authorities that they are not a threat, and work out a deal for authorization/limits/identity.
Let me find out more from my airline foaming buddies what they are doing.
Airline foaming buddies are loading B-52s up with WP and gelled naptha. John Blair is verrrry correct...authorities are in 'skitters' about foamers with cameras and rightly so. I would like to produce a CD-ROM demonstating Redbird inspection procedures but there are intrinsic security problems despite my status and the trainsets will soon all be gone. CI Peter
Any subtalkers from the bay area?? San Frncisco County California...
& did the recent 70 mph winded rainstorm cause poere blackouts on any
of the rail transit systems in northern california ??
like BART , MUNI etc.. Also the storm went into sacramento ca.
did it stop the light rail there also ?
in so. cal we got light rain only !
Any subtalkers from the bay area?? San Frncisco County California...
& did the recent 70 mph winded rainstorm cause any blackouts on any
of the rail transit systems in northern california ??
like BART , MUNI etc.. Also the storm went into sacramento ca.
did it stop the light rail there also ?
in so. cal we got light rain only !
For all concerned, the operator was the only one on the car, and is now home.
1060 is pretty banged up with a fair amount of body damage. Any further details from the Left Coasters? Like what caused the car to derail?
>>> Any further details from the Left Coasters? Like what caused the car to derail? <<<
I think we can rule out shifting concrete blocks. :-)
Tom
The cause of the derailment was excessive speed, thought to be about 20mph. Cause of excessive speed is unknown. The car took a turn too fast and the rear truck derailed, apparently swinging out across the pavement and causing the car to broadside a pole of some sort.
Frank Hicks
Frank,
Thanks for your input. I've been following this post as to cause.
Very Politically Correct as to fault. Do you have any knowledge
of the other recent PCC accidents at MUNI that were posted?
If so the input would be appreciated.
;-) Sparky
"Do you have any knowledge of the other recent PCC accidents at MUNI that were posted?"
There are two other PCC's that I know are out of service with wreck damage. One is the Kansas City car (1056), which is semipermanently sidelined with major damage, and the other is the Brooklyn car (1053), which is apparently being repaired. I think that both of those accidents involved the PCC rear-ending a road vehicle of some sort, but I'm not absolutely sure. Below is the URL of a report on F-Line & SFMR historical equipment status as of two days ago.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SFMuniHistory/message/10444
Frank Hicks
Sounds like the Body Doctors out there are going to have their hands full!
wayne
The Brooklyn car (1053) reportedly could not stop in time to avoid a truck making an illegal U-turn in front of the PCC. Not sure of the location.
The Kansas City car was involved in a rear-end collision with another PCC! Not sure if it was the hitter or the hittee.
i am going to go out there and check to see how many MUNI PCCs
are still at the orange empire museum !!
I bet they will still be there for a long time !!
I can think of a few Republicans you might want to do this to, based on their passenger rail funding votes, but Amtrak better hope the Democrats maintain control of the Senate after this little fiasco.
This happens all the time, but most people without the benifit of a scanner would never notice. At least 1-3 times per longer distance trip you will head the C/R give the E/R the "highball" and the train will start to move slowly before the C/R then tells the E/R to stop the train for some reason (usually a scrambling passenger on either the platform or inside the train). Every time this has happened, the train crew has gone out of their way to sucessfully accomidate the wayward passenger.
Politicians are SPECIAL people. Waters are supposed to part of their own free will.
That’s special as used in the phrase Special Education. Right?
Yep, and "Special interests" as well. Moo. :)
And what is wrong with that? If you can't do a good job with a VIP on board then maybe he has a point.
Well, I'd pretty much say they're done. Times have officially changed, "another one rides the bus." :(
What *IS* it with these moron republicans? Couldn't he have asked a conductor to stop the train or figure out what that red cord is for? Geez. *SO* close to a 12-9 and yet not far enough. So I take it this is Amtrak's fault? Maybe next time he should take the PLANE. :)
He's a railfan so his subconsious was probably egging him on to jump from the moving train just so he could have a story about jumping from a moving train. He is also a polition so after bowing to his his railfan instincts, his political instinct was to complain and bitch.
I guess Amtrak needs to install a GRANDSTAND at the end of each high level platform. :)
Form: 9.5
Reaction time: 6.2
Political insight: 9.8
Long-term judgment: 2.0
Dear Railfans,
Here is a link to the story which appears in today's Journal News.
We've even got a picture on the front page, lots of Subway products
inside and celebrities wearing them.
This link has the story only, no pics. Don't believe the $1M bucks though,I said I was "edging up" on that in sales. (But, I'm an optimist!) : )
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/110502/05nyc.subway.html
Subway grrl
Congrats! Publicity is always a good thing ...
You go grrl!
See? Transit and radio together lives in many places!
Congratulations.
"What I'm finding is that people really love their trains," she says. "They come up to me and say, 'Hey, you haven't done the J train yet.'
So, why haven't you? :)
Congrats!
--Mark
I'm waiting for the Slant (diamond) Q.
wayne
Mostly money!
Each train - once I do it, has to be inventoried in all 3 colors and
5 adult sizes, plus 3 youth sizes. Then people want me to do the larger sizes as well. Whew! It's a big commitment!
But I will eventually do them all, or my nickname's not Subwaygrrl!
Thanks for your congrats!
Instead of going to the "Transit Museum" Stores, deal direct
with the source. I'm a larger structured male and her product
doesn't use skimpy sizing. Her double X adults are full size.
Many items, I have to buy triple X, which are meager. It's a
quality product, worth the price and a portion supports the
"NYCTA Transit Museum". I ordered the two colors for my line
and received the order mucho pronto. 2 days service. That
was the blue & gray for the 'G' Line. The store does stock
the black in adult sizes. Want the other colors order direct.
Also this is an unsolicited endorsement, wish we could get such
arrangements at the Trolley Museums, a % of sales without outlay
up front.
;-) Sparky
Lynne,
Congrats.
It is nice to see you get the recognition from the media that you deserve.
You were always getting recognition from most of us here via word of mouth but that can only go so far.
BTW - has the TM asked you to do anything or have you planned on your own to have anything special for the 100th Anniversary in 2004?
Regards,
Allan
good news- They are starting to renovate this station and even better- it is an in-house job. Most of the pretty stations such as 81 IND are in-house rehabs (as is Houston and 18 on the 1, Sheepshead Bay,5th Ave N R W etc.
A heads up: sometime in July the booth and station will close for six months due to renovation.
Does that mean during those 6 months there will be a shuttle bus at 181 and 200 Streets for those who want 191 Streets?
There was no shuttle bus when 181 was closed.
Most passengers will probably opt to take the A instead. The elevator (which is outside fare control) had better remain in service -- it's a hefty climb from Broadway to St. Nicholas.
I thought there was a free transfer to the M3 if you got on/off at 168 or 191 St to go to 181 St.
A few years ago when TA was rebuilding the elevators at one of the stations on the 1 line, (I forget where at the moment) they had shuttle bus service from the station before it to the one after it.
I do not know. As far as another poster's question about the A train-- you do not need the elevators ate either station:
from 191 ont he 1 use the tunnel to Broadway Cross Broadway att he street which is 190th. Walk onme block to Bennett and turn right after crossing Bennett after walkingn about 1- 1 1/2 blocks you'll see doors in the side of the hill--that si the tunnel to 190 on the A.
Be careful at both stations-- kids liek to riude their bikes at high speed down the hills. throught he tunnel and up the elevators to repeat the process.
Yeah, I love it when the cops in the 191 St station yell at the kids.
But if you're coming from street level at St. Nicholas, you do need the elevators to take you to the tunnel. (More importantly, to get back up to St. Nicholas from the tunnel, you need the elevators unless you're ready for a workout.)
Good news there, that's one of the seedier-looking IRT stations.
wayne
And in some places on that station, as bad or worse than Chambers ont he J. I have seen bare steel and falling concrete. When it rains, it pius in the station!
I'll have Peggy contact you to arrange a tour at some time in the future.
I wish they would do more "in-house" jobs. 18th and Houston are some of the nicest station rehabs in the system (in addition to 81st/CPW and the rest mentioned).
For laughs, I did a google image search using "Myrtle Ave El". One of the weirdest pics that popped up was this one from Joe Korman's website. Where on earth are those tracks going? That aint the Lexington Ave. connection, cuz that building that's blocking the tracks looks to have been built well before 1950:
The old "main line", which was abandoned in the early 20th century?
wayne
Would any of that structure survive into the late 1960's?
That piece of structure (to the Park Avenue L) lasted until the very end of the Myrtle Avenue Line.
The antiquity of its abandonment (1891) is demonstrated by the fact that the abandoned structure pointed at some very old tenament buildings, which were obviously built after the Park Avenue was abandoned.
I'm shocked a building would be built so close to the steelwork. The 2nd floor view must've been awful.
And most of that building's life must have been with that right in front of it, the building already looks quite old by the time that photo was taken!
IIRC the BRT main line which started at Myrtle/Grand was abondoned early on. 1890-1900. So as old as the building is, the line was even older!
Does anyone know the exact block where that spur was? I'd love to see if that building that used to have the spur going inot it's windows is still there. Anyone know?
I'd say Myrtle Ave between Steuben St and Grand Ave.
>>>"Steuben St"<<< PLEASE CLARIFY, we are speaking of Brooklyn.
;-) Sparky
>>>"Steuben St"<<< PLEASE CLARIFY, we are speaking of Brooklyn.
Look at a map, perfectly possible in Brooklyn along Myrtle. Classon, Emerson, Steuben, Grand. Although I am still having troble understanding what that spur was for, where it went, and abandoned already in the late 1800's.
Look at this map. Brooklyn 1888
http://brorson.org/maps/NYC/Brooklyn_1886/Brooklyn_1886_Level2_702_1195.html
It shows the spur going north on Grand Ave from Myrtle Ave, west on Park toward the Brooklyn Bridge. Then press the down arrow at the bottom of the page to show how it connected with the rest of the lines at the Bridge.
Thanks, very interesting. See, you learn something new every day. I never even knew that line existed! It looks like that was the original route of the Lexington El, actually predating the Myrtle El (I can't tell what that line on Myrtle means. It looks like that may mean a surface street car line?). I always wondered about why the Lexington El even existed. It always seemed redundant to me, especially in the context I have always seen it in between Myrtle/Grand and Broadway. I really had no idea that it actually crossed Myrtle at one time. It also seems that it predates what became the Broadway El, because it bends off of Broadway, down Lexington, the Broadway El is not there going West at that location.
Anyone know of where I can find other info on the old "Lexington Ave" line?
Yes, it was the first elevated line in Brooklyn. With Myrtle and Lexington Ave being built later, the Park Ave/York Ave. spur was considered redundant. It was abandoned prior to the electrification of the other elevateds in 1891.
Anyone know of where I can find other info on the old "Lexington Ave" line?
The Watson/Greller book.
I'd like to know what numbering system did the BMT use on their change booths on the Lexington Line?
I haven't read the entire thread, but found it familiar the way we sometimes find out about transit history little by little. I found out about the Lexington Ave. el and the old Mainline el in a piecemeal manner. I first heard it mentioned on LO-V fan trip during the mid 60's; and had never heard of it, nor had I known that the Myrtle Ave route, shown on the pre Chrystie St. TA maps, was about all that remained of the extensive Brooklyn el system. Over the next year or so, I found a battered 1948 Hagstrom map which showed the Lexington el route, and an early 40's street directory which listed it's stations and approximate running times from Park Row.
At an ERA meeting, shortly after I joined the N.Y. Division, I heard someone mention the "Park Ave. El." The Park Ave. El??? - again, I was given a brief explanantion, no info. as to it's complete route. I started buying older issues of N.Y. Division bulletins and reading the David Rogoff articles where he listed the abandoned and partially remaining BMT structures - that's where I found the first solid information about these routes. He described the remaining trackways visible under the Myrtle Ave. L, but it wasn't till I actually was underneath it that I was able to fully take in what he wrote about. Riding the Myrtle in '67 and '68 (after reading those articles) I do remember seeing the turnout in the Joe Korman picture.
In 1969 I mistakenly got off at Jay St. on the IND for the final "Q" fantrip on the Myrtle, the night after operations ended. Bridge/Jay, was fenced and completely sealed off.... "Oh ----!, I'll bet it started up at Broadway Myrtle I said to my brother who had come along - I had misread the fan trip flyer. So, we walked, trotted, walked, ran, trotted, etc. the entire southern length underneath the Myrtle up to Broadway. About halfway up, or so, I spotted the ancient trackways from the Park Ave. el intersecting underneath the Myrtle structure as described by Rogoff and the Lexington Ave turnout. So that morning, while rushing on my feet north, and stopping to glance upwards for probably about a minute, I finally could see and understand the track arrangement of the ancient junctions.
You're right, I erred. When I looked at the map index, I misspelled,
it's there. 2 blocks long between Park & Willoughby Aves.
;-) Sparky
I suggest you look at a map of Brooklyn. Steuben St currently runs 2 blocks from Flushing Ave to Myrtle Ave. Once upon a time it went to Lafayette. 3 more blocks. However it was demapped by 2 housing projects and Pratt Inst. built over there.
Not a very good photo. I'd say the pic was taken at the site of Myrtle Ave and Grand St. I don't think it's the beginning of the Lexington Ave El. But an older connection to the BRT line that ran north on Grand Ave then west on Park Ave when the BQE is now.
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/myrtleave/
Click on the link for Myrtle Jay
In the index bar for Myrtle Jay, the link for this picture is labeled "Cut off to Park Avenue"
Street map showing Park Avenue/York Street El
Gerhard Dahl, the former BMT president, used to live there and had direct service to his home through his private car, the Luciano.
:)
--Mark
>>>"his private car, the Luciano"<<< ROFL :)
Wonder whom was the motorman? Was it the "Double D"?
;-) Sparky
The Luciano, wasn't that one #726?
wayne
Before or after it's, er, renovations? :)
--Mark
The spur was killed by oppositon from NIMFW's (Not in My Front Window.)
IIRC, the elevated intersection of Myrtle and Grand was a joint venture between 2 Brooklyn RR companies. On that 1st day of operation, engines for both companies had a collision at the sight.
I wonder if neither engineer would concede anything.
Reminds me of that Looney Tunes cartoon with Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam headed toward each other on the same track, full speed ahead.
Does that necessarily have to be a turnout holding tracks? Could it just possibly be part of the el structure. If you drive along Bway along the "J"Train ROW there are some diagonal supports along the el.
If you drive along Bway along the "J"Train ROW there are some diagonal supports along the el.
Those diagnol "supports" along the el on the J are actually spurs/turnouts that went off the el. On the Broadway part of the el they are from the turnout for the old Lexington El. The ones near Crescent are the Chestnut St turnouts that used to lead to the LIRR Atlantic line. The LIRR used to use them to access the BRT el and run to Chambers Street back around the early part of the century. So those are indeed former track turnouts.
I wasn't talking about those locations. There are a number of diagonal supports along Broadway.
Just to clarify, the turnoff for the Lex was right at the corner of Bway and Ralph Av, where Lexington begins. (just w/o the Gates Av station) There is no trace of the turnout there at all. There is a diagonal support however there is the same type of diagonal supports by the Koscuiuscko St Station and several others where there were no turnouts and that could have been what was in the Myrtle Av picture.
As far as the Chestnut St flyover to the LIRR is concerned that is nowhere near any part of Broadway, that was on Fulton.
If you drive along Bway along the "J"Train ROW there are some diagonal supports along the el.
Those diagnal "supports" along the el on the J are actually spurs/turnouts that went off the el. On the Broadway part of the el they are from the turnout for the old Lexington El. The ones near Crescent are the Chestnut St turnouts that used to lead to the LIRR Atlantic line. The LIRR used to use them to access the BRT el and run to Chambers Street back around the early part of the century. So those are indeed former track turnouts.
I had to go to the Bronx today on business, and had the opportunity to ride the 5 from Fulton Street in downtown Manhattan to Pelham Parkway on the Dyre line. This was my first foray into that part of the system and particularly on the former NYW&B trackage.
There's actually some interesting things to see on this trip. Of course, there's the usual jaunt past the Worth Street and 18th Street stations. Up in the Bronx, I had the chance to glimpse the ironwork and truncated trackways that once led to the Bronx Park spur of the IRT. The many curves on the trip were enjoyable as well.
But the highlight of the trip was passing through the Unionport yard and making the transition from IRT trackage to the former NYW&B right of way. The abandoned East 180th Street NYW&B station is in plain sight and looks to be in pretty good shape. Its a railfan's dream - just sitting there with overgrown weeds covering the trackways and the old concrete trackbeds passing beyond the station into nothingness. Its appearance reminded me mostly of the appearance of the southern end of the LIRR Rockaway line, as it merges into today's A line - just rough concrete, some rusty and abandoned rails and a lot of foliage. Nifty!
The NYW&B right of way itself is pretty grand - reminds me a lot of the LIRR Rockaway line, with four widely spaced trackways. The Pelham Parkway station itself still has the concrete work on the outside of the station bearing the NYW&B logo. The logo is still visible even though its been painted over several times, apparently.
While waiting for the 5 on my return trip, I was struck by how quiet the station was, even when trains were passing through them. The station house was pretty nice, even in its old, fairly dilapidated state.
I couldn't help feeling a little sad about the failure of the NYW&B system; looks like they made a real go of it. Too bad it failed.
It's been a while since I've been up there (years actually). I also enjoyed the trip the last time I was there. It's a very interesting run (including the el before the Dyre line). I got to get up there one day.
I couldn't help feeling a little sad about the failure of the NYW&B system; looks like they made a real go of it. Too bad it failed.
The NYW&B was quite overengineered, what with the 4-track ROW and the grandiose station houses. The one thing it really needed, unfortunately, was what it did not have - a direct route into Manhattan.
I live in Westchester County and you can still see evidence of the NYW&B in quite a few places. There is a big stone bridge in Pelham that once carried the tracks of the once great NYW&B. In White Plains you can see evidence of a long gone overpass for the NYW&B. Too bad that it failed. It could have been a great railroad.
#3 West End Jeff
I read somewhere that the NYW&B's lack of a Manhattan terminus was the result of a business decision. When the line was being designed, the business hub of Manhattan was still in the process of moving from downtown to midtown. The NYW&B planners thought that with the passage of time, the business hub would keep moving north and eventually reach the Bronx. As such, they decided not to expend the money to extend their line into Manhattan but instead keep their terminal in the Bronx.
That plan failed because of City zoning laws passed in the 1920's limiting the amount of commercial building construction above 59th Street. This is why Manhattan above 59th Street is far more residential than it is below. Unfortunately for the NYW&B, that meant that their line was doomed, because people would have to continue into Midtown to go to work. This resulted in many more people taking the IRT and NY Central lines rather than the NYW&B, and the line ended up failing.
The irony is that even had the NYW&B extended their line into Manhattan, it would almost certainly have been an el because the NYW&B did not have the resources to build a subway line. That el line would most likely have been demolished by the City with the other els in the '30s and '40s, so even if they had built into Manhattan the line probably would have failed anyway.
Another irony is that after WWII, there was a flight to the suburbs, including Westchester County, and the NYW&B system could have been pretty handy as an alternative to the NY Central (today's Metro North).
I read somewhere that the NYW&B's lack of a Manhattan terminus was the result of a business decision. When the line was being designed, the business hub of Manhattan was still in the process of moving from downtown to midtown. The NYW&B planners thought that with the passage of time, the business hub would keep moving north and eventually reach the Bronx. As such, they decided not to expend the money to extend their line into Manhattan but instead keep their terminal in the Bronx.
My impression is that it was more a case of wishful thinking on the part of the planners. They didn't have the resources to build a Manhattan extension and terminal, and justified the line's stopping in the Bronx by telling themselves that the Bronx would eventually become a major business hub. Whether the planners really believed that, or were just trying to put a positive spin on a difficult situation, is probably unknowable today.
The whole NYW&B seems to be so overbuilt also. Maybe if they had spent less on the huge four track ROW and and all the elaborate stations, they may have had some more money to at least get into Manhattan. Although, unless it went to the West Side, a NYW&B on the East side would have been kind of redundant to the New York Central. At least if it terminated somewhere on the West Side, at least they would have had a West End edge, and the NYC would have had an East Side edge, so at least they would not have been competing on all fronts in Westchester and the East Side.
Two other stations to check out next time you are up that way are Morris Park (half in tunnel, half outside; mind the pigeons), and East 180th Street's station entrance is THE definitive NYW&B station building, with sculpted Mercury heads gracing the facade and a grand medallion logo.
wayne
I passed through that station on the way to Pelham Parkway. You're right, the pigeon dung on the covered part of the station was startling.
The station itself reminded me of the Sedgwick Avenue station on the old 9th Ave el/Polo Grounds shuttle route. That was also a hybrid inside/outside station.
I think we should go back to allow hunting/killing of pigeons. They are just flying rats IMHO.
I always love the squirrel comparision also. Basically they are just rats with furry tails. If they had skinny tails like rats, you wouldn't hear people in Madison Square Park, etc saying, "Oh look, how cute....."
Is that station that was converted to a private home still standing? that was a NYW&B station it's in one of the books on the NYW&B railway,are there any videos around of that line? i know there was a couple available awhile back. thanks.
>>Is that station that was converted to a private home still standing? that was a NYW&B station it's in one of the books on the NYW&B railway,are there any videos around of that line? i know there was a couple available awhile back. thanks.<<
It is still standing, the last I heard. That station building was the Quaker Ridge station. About ten years ago, I scouted the area for remaining traces of the NYW&B ROW. Went to that home and talked with the owner who said he was an artist from Manhattan. He didn't show me the inside, he must have had other railfans ring his doorbell.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is that station that was converted to a private home still standing? that was a NYW&B station it's in one of the books on the NYW&B railway,are there any videos around of that line? i know there was a couple available awhile back. thanks.
It is still standing, the last I heard. That station building was the Quaker Ridge station. About ten years ago, I scouted the area for remaining traces of the NYW&B ROW. Went to that home and talked with the owner who said he was an artist from Manhattan. He didn't show me the inside, he must have had other railfans ring his doorbell.
There's also a street in Scarsdale that's built on the former ROW. I can't remember it's name, but its alignment is very different from any of the other roads in the area.
>>There's also a street in Scarsdale that's built on the former ROW. I can't remember it's name, but its alignment is very different from any of the other roads in the area<<\
I can't think of the name...........*something* bypass. If you and I are thinking of the same road, it was on the ROW at the Heathcote station. Pics are in Roger Arcars book "Westchesters Forgotten Railway" on page 45.
Bill "Newkirk"
There's also a street in Scarsdale that's built on the former ROW. I can't remember it's name, but its alignment is very different from any of the other roads in the area
I can't think of the name...........*something* bypass. If you and I are thinking of the same road, it was on the ROW at the Heathcote station.
Now I recall, thanks to what you said. It's Heathcote Bypass.
Three posts, and I only clicked once (with DSL).
Hmmm, very interesting.
DSL is fast!!
Greetings,
I am looking for retailers, wholesalers, or drop-shippers of NYC model Subway Trains in service from 1970's to present.
I have access to many potential customers and would appreciate any information.
Thank You
Joseph Russ
Did you check out these links under the Transfer Station?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29542
Thought this might be amusing, too late of course for the eastern time zone, but polls are still open out west and therefore a meal suggestion ...
Tonight, the crew here celebrates the election with ROAST PORK (no explanation necessary), Stuffing (to represent the ballot boxes), potatoes (to represent the electorate), and squash (to represent the party lawyers waiting to pounce on the results), served with whine and raspberry fritters ... no Paturkey though. :)
You forgot the juice.... :o)
Bruno took it. :)
Ouch! LOL!
I guess I should be honored to have licked the boots of the privileged. Yowsah, missuh. :(
Here on the Left Coast, my plate is empty. Senator Dianne, along with Senator Hillary, decided that the best way to stop a war is to vote for it. Our governor, running against a dufus, is the very best that money can buy.
Chock full of nuts...nothing a millionaires money cant buy.
JUICE! JUICE! JUICE!!!
Would you like us to send out a plate of Paturkey with stuffing? :)
Ummm....Sounds tasty! ;)
The Juice is Here!!!!!!!!!!! I refused TWU -party lines...they wanted us to vote line G...Aaronowitz...Green Party....but Roger did NOT properly follow orders from his handlers in Moscow and never got the word out...the monies spent were not used to contact us and the TWU Boards decision was posted on closed internet . Paturkey wins so buy schedule 40 PVC pipe and lots of caps...bury everything.
Fortunately, I live outside of Albany. We ain't seen Paturkey in Albany (except when he darts in and out in the middle of the night on Air Cuomo for a photo op) so looks like status quo time continues. At least now that New York has PROVEN once again that a "candidate of color" has a better chance of getting elected in TEXAS, H Carl can drop by for a beer and some tunes without a contingent in tow. Sure hope he sticks around the neighborhood now that it's over. He's a GREAT guy ...
The rudderless ship of state chugs on ... moo.
"H Carl can drop by for a beer and some tunes without a contingent in tow. Sure hope he sticks around the neighborhood now that it's over. He's a GREAT guy ..."
And there in lies his problem, a intelligent, honest person with some integrity stand no chance against an oppurtunist like Paturkey. By the way, does anyone know Georgie Boy stands on any issue, aside from saying "Yes sir!" to Joe Bruno?
I'd imagine "What's good for East Greenbush is good enough for that big hole downtown, let's put up a Wal*Mart supercenter and a Cracker Barrel." :(
One of the advertising inserts in Sunday's paper was for an offer from Hawthorne Village in Illinois.
The item appears to be an HO model of a two unit engine and the first passenger car very elaborately decorated for the Philadelphia Eagles pro football team. The train is to be known as the Philadelphia Eagles Express. It appears to be an artist's rendering and not an actual photo. Additional cars are to be available every two months.
Is this just a one team deal, or are they offering trains painted for other football teams in other areas of the country?
Around here (Eatontown, New Jersey) it was an ad for the New York Giants train. It's a limited edition, too... limited to the number of suckers who sign up to buy it, plus another million or so for the bargain bins next year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It could be a Bachmann produced HO model, which does not gain value as it ages like Lionel.
It could be a Bachmann produced HO model, which does not gain value as it ages like Lionel.
Right... worthless to start with, less than worthless after a year :-)
(Back when I ran The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina we called them Barfman... with good reason!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yesterday while i was checking the video store near marcy ave,i herd
the wine sound of an R143,i saw it and it was going the willy-b,maybe
going to ci yard,do they sometimes do that?
til next time
They might have been heading to Piken Yard for the Test track testing on the Flats of Rockaway. They do this to every set that is getting ready for the 24 hour burn test on the L line.
Robert
Check out this movie. It is set in Chicago circa 1931. Tom Hanks drives over the Chicago River south on La Salle St. Up ahead an El train goes by.
Sure looks a 2400 series Green Line Train to me!!!
This subject was extensively examined on the message board www.northshoreline.com, the site for North Shore Line fans. This detail was overlooked, and there is a possibility that the "L" train will be digitally "repainted" in the orange/green Chicago Rapid Transit scheme of the thirties for the video/DVD release. I thought it interesting that the Wrigley Building was the site of the syndicate's (that's what we called it in Chicago) headquarters.
It's already been posted on Nitpickers.com, though not with much detail.
I didn't see it there. How do I find it??
Wrigley building in LIC...structure of disgrace. Magnesium Cearate was an integral component of 'Chiclets' and when improperly handled materiel ignited, at least four employees were burned to death. My commentary is that these motion pictures never acknowledge the losses...Wrigley was once a major corperation like Standard Oil or Coca-Cola...now just a name like Zenith. 'Calling Phillip Morris.'
my step cousin lived somewhat near this location when i first got there in the early 1960s !
what a shame it is gone ! man am i glad someone took this shot !
Doesn't Staples Center sit where the carbarn used to be?
Yea..........i think so .........
what a shame they allowed our PCCs to be taken away !!
mayor yorty !
>>> Doesn't Staples Center sit where the carbarn used to be? <<<
I think it is the Convention Center which was built on the old carbarn location.
Tom
a lot of people lost ther homes there for that place
terrible and a shame !
Hmmmm. A P-2 PCC running on the P line at such a late stage (the two-tone green scheme began to be applied when LAMTA took over in 1958). The P-3 all-electrics held down the fort exclusively on the P line from the time they were delivered until the last day of service, when some ran on the J line to facilitate the transfer to dead storage.
L. A.'s PCCs are the one reason I sometimes wish I'd grown up there. Chances are I would have remembered them.
It's a rush hour tripper pulling in. P-2's and P's were used as rush hour add-ins and trippers. P-3's were the P-Line's base service cars.
That's right. The P line always got the newest equipment because it had the highest ridership. I've read it was almost retained when streetcar service ended, but that would have meant keeping a lot of nonrevenue trackage open for yard moves.
The yards were only 1 block off the P Car, now where the Convention Center is
which line served pico ? especially where it crossed pico / western
i used to live on serrano avenue whent to hobart elementary school
back in early 1960 saw the holloywood hills fire remember that ?
& the wiltern building with that huge diamond clock revolving ! \
any body else out there remember those dayz ?.........!
which line served pico ? especially where it crossed pico / western
i used to live on serrano avenue went to hobart elementary school
back in early 1960 saw the holloywood hills fire remember that ?
& the wiltern building with that huge diamond clock revolving ! \
any body else out there remember those dayz ?.........!
The P line, IIRC.
I saw an LIRR M7 being tested today. I was in Hicksville and it was there waiting for a signal. When it took off it was quiet and really took off fast compared to a old M1.
Yeah the M1's accelerate so slow. Even the diesel sets can outpace them in acceleration.
I cant wait to ride the M7. Hopefully they will be better than BOMBardiers other product, the R142.
they are. i rode them already, and they FLY off! they make a DE30 cry!
they are. i rode them already, and they FLY off! they make a DE30 cry!
The DE30's make ME cry.
There running? What line??? WHen????
The M7's have been on the Flatbush to Long Beach run this week. I don't know where else.
Any way to find out when? I'm flying in for the weekend. Trying to find an R-143 shouldn't be hard, but I would love to catch an M-7 too.
Does anybody know the time the M-7 comes through Flatbush Branch? Because I live 2 blocks away from the Nostrand Ave. Station on the Branch and I would love to see the new units. Thanks!!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Why not just take a ride on the Long Beach train?
Because I don't have time to go all the way out there, when I can just walk two blocks and ride it there, or take a look at it.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
"Yeah the M1's accelerate so slow. Even the diesel sets can outpace them in acceleration. "
No, not really. The old diesels definitely not, and the DM30's, while good, are still not that good...
if they are in service already and haven't failed yet.... i think its obvious its not a hiccup;dud;lemon;bomb;fart;and all of your favorite bom-bashing verbs
I spoke to a friend of mine who is a LIRR engineer. He told me he attended classroom training a week or two ago. Today he hit the road this morning, operating the M-7's out of Long Beach to Flatbush Ave.
After Flatbush, the train layed up in VD (Vanderbilt) yard for some sort of adjustment. After that, he operated the M-7's to Hempstead (running light). After Hempstead, it was back to Jamaica. On board was a couple of LIRR motor instructors, but no one from Bombardier.
He liked the M-7's very much. Said they were quiet and fast. The acceleration from standing start blows the M-1/3's away. He said they accelerated like subway cars. Maybe he means R-142/143's. There are two computer screens that tell the engineer the status of the train. Yeah, just like the R-142/143.
Inside the full width cab, there is a drop down two seater opposite the engineers area for passenger seating when the cab door is closed in mid consist. Cab door will lock like the WMATA and SEPTA B-IV cars. so passengers can pass between cars.
He also told me more cars were delivered. These cars may make up the second train due to go into revenue service in December. Eventually, 20 cars per month will be phased in.
Some posters raised questions about less seating due to the size of the handicapped (ADA) lavatory. Eventually, when all M-7's are delivered, along with current M-3's, the LIRR fleet will number some 1000 cars, some 100 cars than today. That should take care of short changed seating on M-7's and the standee problem during peak hours.
As far as big things (new M-7 fleet) go, the next big thing on the LIRR is triple tracking the Port Jeff Branch between Floral Park and Hicksville. The new track should be south of the eastbound track. Expect Nassau tower to be a casualty, get your shots now. He also told me something wild, that Mineola may be an island platform. Probably like Hicksville or Babylon. This would make sense for terminating Oyster Bay trains. To make room, current eastbound station waiting building may be demolished or moved. This is not written in stone and subject to change. Ronkonkoma yard was expanded by a couple of tracks, also expect Port Wash, Long Beach and Babylon to accommodate a future expanded fleet.
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the Rockland County election results, with 3/4 of the precents in, the Proposition for the Palisades Mall to use extra empty space they built in the mall, has been voted down.
I guess it's one for the NIMBY's. Not suprised though, the mall doesn't do well. Malls always have midday shoppers. Palisades didn't.
Alot of empty space within the existing mall structure.
Maybe a direct EXPRESS bus from NYC would help. Well it couldn't hurt.
Does anyone know of sites that have NYC subway or LIRR downloads? I know there are such sites for BVE, but any such sites for MSTS downloads would be great.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I am interested in this as well. MSTS works great for me, but I can never get BVE to work...it always crashes for me.
Patrick,
I feel the same way about MSTS. It works fine for me, too. I purchased an Abacus add-on that advertised it had a Chicago el scenario. It turns out all it gave the track layout of a line with NO scenery or trains! I emailed Abacus to let them know it was not appreciated marketing such an incomplete scenario. Oh well, hope somebody answers us on this board.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Mistake Number One:
Purchasing the Abacus Train Sim Roundhouse Add-On.
Everything in that box is available FREE at http://www.train-sim.com
I heard that the 1, 2, 3, and 9 trains were having trouble this afternoon. What exactly happened?
- Lyle Goldman
Smoke condition at 96 Street.
I wonder if that was a track fire, or a fire in the garbage.
I remember before they started putting those garbage storage rooms around they sometimes would store bags of garbage under a stairway, or at the end of the platforms sometimes, station fires would be more common. I remember a fire under a stairway at the Myrtle (L) stations under a stairway. The flames completely burned all the paint off of one of the columns, and all of the paint off of the ceiling above. I obviously wasn't there when the fire was going on, but it seemed to be a pretty bad fire, especially for an underground station. All the tiles were sooty around the whole station, and had a horrible stench.
Luckily, now they have built those little rooms around many stations to store garbage in. Not only was it unsightly to throw bags of garbage in the corner, kids can't set them on fire anymore.
The way I heard it on Shadow Traffic, it was something with the train.
Doesn't the 1/2/3/9 have trouble every day?
(Actually, not anymore, IME. Local service used to be notoriously unreliable, but it seems to be pretty reliable most of the time now.)
That LOOP makes a difference. HAPPY to have it back! Seriously, though, the MAGIC of IRT locals was that on BOTH runs, then CONTINUE on through a pesky loop which means no "relaying" or "reversing ends" downtown, and THAT is what works. Of COURSE there are morons suggesting stub ends, but folks fail to remember that with IND headways, stub ends worked. Not so for da IRT. :)
Hallo? Is this thing ON? Heh.
No, it's not the loop. West Side IRT local service has been dreadfully unreliable for years. My first everyday experience on the 1/9 was in 1991, and it was unreliable then. It was unreliable before 9/11. It was still unreliable after 9/11, but the 2 ran local (usually), so problems on the 1 didn't necessarily yield a lack of service at local stations (except that the 2 actually ran express so often that service was completely unpredictable). Even though the schedule now is basically the same as it was before 9/11, something is being done very differently.
I wonder if some of my common sense ideas are being followed now. Like making adjustments north of 137 rather than south of 96. (I've pointed out before that 50, 66, 79, and 86 alone have more passengers than the entire line north of 137, yet trains bypass those stations all the time in a vain attempt to get up to the Bronx on time.)
There still seems to be some sort of strong resistance to running expresses on the local track to fill gaps. A few weeks ago there was a 30-minute gap in local service (which is supposed to have 5-minute gaps) at the tail end of rush hour, but an express zipped by every few minutes, and the S/A proudly informed us that "there's nothing wrong with the trains."
What the line could use now is simply more service, both rush hours and weekends. (Sundays the line is consistently SRO north of 42. How many other locals in residential areas are consistently SRO on weekends? I can't think of any.) The loop is great -- it's the north terminal that limits capacity. There are other potential north terminals (137 and Dyckman are the obvious ones, but trains could also switch to the express at 96 and run up Lenox to one of the terminals in that direction), but they haven't been regularly used on the 1 since 1989.
Before I got away from the #1 Line I notice they really don't skip any trains between 34 St and 96 any more. Even when I was running 8 Minutes late at Times Square with train behind me backed up to 14 Street I still made local stops. This was the peak hour of the PM Rush Hour. Anyway when I made it to 96 Street 12 Minutes late I got a super skip to 242 Street. The thing that killed my trip was crowds of people holding the doors between Wall St all the way to 59 Street.
Before 9/15, there was still lots of skipping between 34 and 96, especially on the 2.
It still happens on occasion (after that half-hour delay, the train stopped at 86 and 79 but not at 66 or 50), but I've been seeing a lot less of it than I used to see.
You skipped all the way from 96 to 242? Wow! With passengers?
The skip I had was 96,137,168, Dyckman, 242. to me thats a super skip.
Yeah, that's pretty super. IMO, 116 should have been substituted for Dyckman. Did you run up either middle track?
No, Stayed on the Local track. It funny anytime a skip is made the #1 always stops at Dyckman but the #9 Skips it.
Why is Dyckman considered so important? It's not a very busy station compared to others on the line.
It's the last station with free transfer to either uptown or downtown service before 242.
Interesting point. That makes it a somewhat useful stop on a southbound run (so people who didn't realize the train was bypassing their stops could backtrack), but coming from the south, I can't imagine a huge number of passengers who boarded at 168 for 181 or 191 who now have to backtrack.
Conversely, there's no free crossover at 137, so anyone trying to get to the very busy stations at 103, 110, 116, and 125 has to go all the way up to 168 to backtrack. (I was once on a train that was sent up the middle track from 96 to 137 with no prior warning to the passengers. Almost everyone got off at 137 and the S/A had to give out hundreds of block tickets.) Stop at 116 instead of Dyckman and most of them can get where they're going in a fraction of the time.
For the record: in 2000, Dyckman had 1,960,113 fare registrations, 137 had 4,003,597, 125 had 2,056,685, 116 had 4,127,702, 110 had 4,172,774, and 103 had 3,969,126. My question stands: why Dyckman?
Interesting, considering that 137 used to turn trains. (not that that really matters I guess, because under normal service, any passenger on a train that terminated at 137, but wasn't destined for 137, would be looking to go north, not back south).
Was there ever a crossunder at 137, and it was closed (similar to stations like 28th/Lex), or was there never one there to begin with.
I don't think there was ever a crossunder, but I'm not sure.
It probably is for the reason of allowing passengers to backtrack. While not many may have boarded at 168 for 181 and 191, that presupposes that all those who boarded earlier listened to announcements and noticed that other stations were being bypassed.
A second item worth considering is simply the TA mentality. To them, 137 and Dyckman are important stations because you can turn trains there. 168 is important because of the A/C transfer. To the guy giving orders from the tower, Dyckman is more important than 116.
CG
It probably is for the reason of allowing passengers to backtrack. While not many may have boarded at 168 for 181 and 191, that presupposes that all those who boarded earlier listened to announcements and noticed that other stations were being bypassed.
Let's look at the numbers. By stopping at Dyckman, 6,475,100 passengers (on an annual fare registration basis, in 2000) who either got on at 168 or didn't notice all the earlier bypassed stations and didn't hear the announcement are relieved from having to travel 42 additional blocks out of their way, where they can then either stay on the same train or cross the platform to return. By not stopping at 116, 12,269,602 passengers who didn't hear the announcement (the train was making all stops until 96, so there was no prior relevant experience) are forced to travel 52 additional blocks out of their way, and must then share the two narrow overpasses with the 7,149,513 passengers who missed 125, 145, and 157.
In addition, passengers at 168 bound for 181, 191, and Dyckman have the alternative option of the A train, which stops a few blocks away, if they don't want to wait for the next local. Passengers at 96 bound for 103, 110, 116, and 125 don't have any other options. (The M104 is slow and doesn't have room for more than a handful of additional subway passengers.)
A second item worth considering is simply the TA mentality. To them, 137 and Dyckman are important stations because you can turn trains there. 168 is important because of the A/C transfer. To the guy giving orders from the tower, Dyckman is more important than 116.
So what? It had already been decided that this train was not turning at 137 or at Dyckman. In fact, trains are almost never turned before 242. The skip-stop planners realize that Dyckman isn't a very important station, even though backtracking is a necessary part of riding skip-stop services for short distances.
Most of the time the skip that is given is 116,137,168,Dyk,231 and 242. Another reason to stop a Dyckman st. is that no other mass transit stops in that area unless you want to walk up to Broadway.
The distance from Dyckman on the 1 to Dyckman on the A is about half the distance from 110 on the 1 to 110 on the B/C -- and it's flatter, too.
Minutes late I got a super skip to 242 Street.
Wow, did the train run on one of the express track sections up there?
Of COURSE there are morons suggesting stub ends, but folks fail to remember that with IND headways, stub ends worked. Not so for da IRT.
I think the loop still serves it's purpose after all these years at turning trains fast. Of course it is not the ideal situation because it only allows for a half of train to platform there. I was actually called "clueless" here a few months back when I showed concern that a stub terminal at South Ferry could actually slow the line down, especially if poorly planned. It could actually be less efficient than the current terminal.
Of course the root of the problem could be the service itself, as was mentioned. Sure it sounds great, there are two locals on the 7th Ave-Broadway line. Yeah, in theory that's true, but the 9 is basically just another name for split 1 service. I think the 1/9 set-up would be much better if they got rid of the skip stop, and made the 9 a 1 again (or possibly keep the 9) but start them short at a station like 137, where they could turn them, and send them back downtown. This would increase local service on the line because even though they may have the same amount of trainsets allocated for the West Side local, the trainsets would not have to go all the way up to Van Cortlandt Park and return before getting to where the service is needed most.
Some might argue that it is not necessary because of the IND so close by, well with the park being on one side of CPW, I think the old IRT hits where people want to go better. And the few times I have found myself on CPW instead of the West Side line, the service seems to be even worse at those local stations! I avoid that line if at all possible. I've never had a short wait at any of those stations.
Bigger loops could serve bigger trains, but it WOULD appear that Gibbs HAD that clue that you apparently lack. :)
Hate to differ with "if *I* were king of the BMT, the Q train would go to East 180th, but you can't argue with reality. Unless you voted, of course, but that's another story. But normally I avoid these like the plague. When you're WITH the railroad, whatever they make you key onto is yours. Whenever, whatever. But it WOULD appear that "Ferry" has proven its design even IF not all cars platform. :)
There was also a third rail fire at 191. I understand service was hindered from 79th. 191 was bedlam, according to the PM S/A. Elevators went up to the street level and shut down, the station filled with smoke, FDNY had to call specialized unit. Even MVMs were out and two were fried.
I can account for the 191 incident. I was the one who called it in to Control.
Thanks! I was just going to post that I got an e-mail from someone,whose address I wont reveal, confirming there were two separate incidents-- 191 and 79th.
Adding to 191-- later that night I lost all lights except for booth lighting and emergency lights plus 1/2 of Northbound plat (as I found out later). Thankfully elevators did not stop and turnstiles still worked with no loss of information. It was determined to be vandalism-- an electrical box on the platform was broken into and breakers tampered with.
the person stated a train had to wrong rail back to 181 to discharge passengers due to low visibility at 191.
When I got off and went home, I saw the charred remains on the downtown plat. Wow!
To our tech people: How can a third rail catch fire and why cant regular FDNY put it out. I was told it kept reigniting.
"How can a third rail catch fire and why cant regular FDNY put it out."
I can answer the first part. The third rail doesn't burn. A spark ignites garbage that our less civic minded fellow citizens deposit everywhere for it to blow onto the tracks.
As for the second part, I do know FDNY is leary of high voltages. They do like the power off before they spray water.
America under the wet bedsheets has spoken, therefore I must ACCEPT it. But I'd like to leave one last thought before my political comments *END* ... and no, no REPLIES here either. Just a geezer saying, MARK MY WORDS ...
1. Move out of the top 50 cities ... you're going to die.
2. For those who voted who never did a history class, I leave the following ... I've posted this BEFORE ...
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the
public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the