... and I'm surprised I didn't see it mentioned here. (I could have missed it, though, as there are so many posts to this board now).
On October 25th, 1977, R-9 1689 was delivered to the Branford Trolley Museum. That meant that October 25th, 2002 marked the 25th anniversary of the delivery.
Was that on Anon-e-mouse's cake? I hope you guys sang "happy anniversary" to it :)
--Mark
Nope, but we DID let her stretch her legs out and go for a spin or ten to celebrate. :)
According to Sparky, 1689 made more round trips (nine) that day than ever before. It sure got a good workout and it was great to ride on it again. My pet subway car, I like to call it.
P. S. What was the name of that Italian restaurant in Trolley Square we dined at?
Ristorante Faustini, I believe... that's in Trolley Square, in any event (based on Switchboard and Google searches).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nope.
Restaurant name was Aniello's Pizza
Thanks for the correction, Piotr - I couldn't remember so was just going based on what I could find on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, by the time we went to put her away, EVERYTHING had loosened up nicely. Even the storm doors. The BIG secret to keeping museum pieces in good running order is to RUN them every now and then to knock the corrosion off the moving parts. A look at the rails in Notch-It's pictures showed that the rust had come off the bearings and wheels pretty quickly and the axle grease was finally starting to show on the last couple of runs. She got a GOOD workout and was actually starting to get "frisky" by the end. What a FABULOUS car! :)
And no doubt, it made an inauguaral trip to Short Beach even though the old gal didn't have a trolley pole. If I'm not mistaken, the little Shunter that could was hitched to this monster of a car to supply power...
-Stef
For something that was thrown togather with parts laying around the shop in Montreal in 1920 this little yard tug, now a tool car has kept earning here keep over & over again.
And speaking of October 25 and Branford History,
1977, R-9 1689 was delivered,
1956, PCC 1001 left Brooklyn for Connecticut,
1940, Sparky was born in Brooklyn.
;-) Sparky
That means 1001 was on its way to Branford just days before trolley service in Brooklyn ended for good.
Correctamondo.
And was the first PCC to operate in the State of Connecticut
on October 27, 1956. Yes October 27, another famed natal day
for Sub~Talkers.
;-) Sparky
St Louis did make those cars pritty good.
And we can safely assume 1689 was the first arnine to ever operate in the state of Connecticut.
AFAIK it's the only R-9 in the state. Warehouse Point doesn't have any.
The last one is the best Sparky, mainly because it proves there is someone on board older than I am-----if only for a couple of days.
Karl B is a few years older than you.
Well, two out of three ain't bad. Bustini, bustini. :)
A Belated Happy Birthday!!!!
Jeff,
Thank You
;-) Sparky
Sparky: So October 25 was a great day in transit history. It also is the anniversary of the Charge of the Light Brigade and the birthday of at least one other sub-talker. Happy Belated Birthday.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Thanks,
;-) Sparky
[... Was that on Anon-e-mouse's cake? ...]
Sure was, with frosting highlight to match the Anine's green !
Offically it was a birthday charter of Steve & Sparky.
I just saw a TV commercial for the Cadillac Escalade SUV. It opens on two trains on two different tracks facing each other across a road. The Cadillac speeds across the crossing between the two trains, and as it disappears down the road, the trains are seen both crossing the road, passing each other. The text is something about breaking through to better motoring. Kids, don't try this at home!
Although it is true that in the beginning of the commercial the trains are stationary and there are no flashing lights so there is no explicit race for the crossing, it still sends a bad subliminal message regarding which vehicle should cross first.
Tom
You know that TV like shows people killing other people and like doing drugs and stuff. You don't seem to think that those images are "irresponsible".
Look, I hate to break it to you, but anybody who does something because they saw it on a commercial is stupid enough that he/she will probably die soon anyway. Irresponsible commercials aren't the problem, irresponsible people are.
Improving the gene pool is a painful process. Good people disagree on how hard we should work at it.
>>> I hate to break it to you, but anybody who does something because they saw it on a commercial is stupid enough that he/she will probably die soon anyway <<<
People's behavior is influenced all the time by commercials. That is the purpose of them, and it has been proven over and over that they are effective. Those selling SUVs are particularly good at getting people who will never take them off paved road to buy them by showing them driving over back country trails and along deserted beaches. Advertizing is still as much an art as a science, and therefore the behavior induced is not always only the behavior desired.
Tom
Irresponsible commercials aren't the problem, irresponsible people are.
Yes... And *they* create irresponsible commercials!
I think the manufacture and sale of Cadillac Escalade SUVs is irresponsible regardless of the advertising!
Mark
Hopehully this stunt won't be attempted by someone if there is a sequel to Jackass.
In contrast with some other posters here, I agree with Old Tom that this advertisement is totally irresponsible. Stupid behaviour at grade crossings (or level crossings in my native language) is one of the commonest causes of fatal accidents on railways. Even if General Motors doesn't give a damn about trains, they are encouraging their own car-buying customers in behaviour that could get them killed.
Fytton.
I had the same reaction when I saw it. They are trying to show that the trains "stop" for the Cadillac.
In a related note, just last evening, a 20-year old woman was killed at the Brockton MBTA commuter rail station, crossing in front of an approaching train so that she could catch it. The lights and bells were working properly, according to witness reports.
I agree with you, Tom.
Remember an old NJ Transit billboard ad? It shows a car and a train in close proximity at a crossing and warns drivers: "Even if it's a tie, you lose."
>>> "Even if it's a tie, you lose." <<<
I kind of like the posters on the L.A. Blue Line (which has had quite a few intersection accidents) which show an open wallet with a driver's license next to a wheel on a track, and says "If you are going to cross in front of the train, be sure to carry I.D."
Tom
It's not as if this ad is the first of its kind. An ad for Florida's Natural orange juice that ran for a while a couple of years ago showed a truck with the company logo passing over a non-crossbucked grade crossing as the warning lights were flashing.
We need less rich people and less Escalades so let them try to beat the train.
I wouldn't object to that (a car owner accepting responsibility for his/her own moronic behavior) if it didn't wreck the lives of so many other people (son/daughter/wife/husband/train engineer/conductor etc.)
My first thought when I saw that commercial was that anybody who watched it would understand that it was an intentional exaggeration of the Escalade's prowess....but thinking further, there are some drivers out there who might be emboldened by that portrayal, and that's troubling.
I had no problem with it.
I am proud to say I am smarter than the average commerical.
I'm with you....
I try not to watch much television myself, as it is a huge wasteland.
I almost never watch TV. Aside from an occasional movie, I don't think I've watched any TV since 9/11. (I just don't find it interesting. If I have time to kill, I come here instead.)
But obviously some people out there do watch TV, and some of them are influenced by TV advertising -- otherwise the advertisers wouldn't waste their money. I'm afraid I agree with Tom.
Thank you, Mr. Minnow.
MAD Magazine (remember keeping it out of your parents view because it was sooooo subversive) once featured the following:
"The Average American has a 40 year old body and five year old mind. If he watches television for an entire year he would have a 41 year old body and a four year old mind."
On an actual historical note, in 1976 an executive of the American Broadcasting Companies testified before a Congressional sub-committee that American television is generally aimed at the 8th Grade educational level.
It is now 26 years later and the level of programming has increased, but has not improved one teeny-tiny bit.
Avoid excess TV, engage in a healthy and entertaining hobby, like chasing streetcars and subway trains.
I have seent his commercial MANY times. It's not that the SUV driver tries to beat the trains....or even fails to yield right of way to them.
The gist of the commercial is that when you buy the luxury of the Cadillac Escalade, trains stop to let you go by as though you are more important!!
If that's the case, why not show Queen Elizabeth in her coronation coach and the Pope in his Popemobile defer to the Cadillac SUV driver?
Because they would oject to that misuse of their likenesses, and would not permit it.
The Dutchess of York, Ms. Sarah Ferguson, has signed contracts allowing companies to use her in commercials and print ads(Weight Watchers)
The Dutchess of York, Ms. Sarah Ferguson, has signed contracts allowing companies to use her in commercials and print ads(Weight Watchers)
Before she went to Weight Watchers, she was known as the Dutchess of Pork.
Maybe Weight Watchers could hire Anna Nicole as their new spokeswoman ...
Ouch! :)
Very true.
Anna Nicole isn't slender, but then most of her audience is interested in two assets situated a bit higher and more frontally than her hips...
Anna Nicole isn't slender, but then most of her audience is interested in two assets situated a bit higher and more frontally than her hips...
Have you watched her show? It's sort of like driving past a terrible car wreck on the highway - you know that you shouldn't look, and what you'll see will be very disturbing, but it's humanly impossible not to look.
Yes indeed!
Heh. Tell you how bad it's gotten. Yes, after reading reviews of it being a trainwreck, I too just *had* to take it in. TWICE! :)
The video bumper ("Anna Nicole" tune and the kissyface animation) is *HOT* ... live action, not. I've had some mighty bad cab blessings in my days, but I'm grateful I *never* got stuck with a pig in a poke like her. Woof. :(
Now shame on you - Anna Nichole is a plus sized woman, yes, but I have seen some who make her look like a scarecrow on crack. And Anna is pretty in her own way, so let her be. That creature who hosted the gameshow caled "The Weakest Link" is someone who would cause you to jump out of a window if you woke up in bed naked next to her.
My own hunny is voluptuous ... GEEZ guy, we're talking TRAILER TRASH here ... she'd be RIGHT at home in Rensselaer county, working sailors at the Joseph L Bruno Rensselaer Amtrak Station. I'd bet she'd be Senator Joe's PRIME dungeonlady choice. :)
but let's face it, de beech be butt ugly and selfish as all getout. Those who've met Bingbong know I've got one CLASSY foamerette. Who in their right mind would want el porko? Beauty is only skin deep, but DEEP down Anna Nicole is STILL butt ugly.
I *still* get a stiffy over the animated version kissyface on the program bumper, but the REAL thing ... Ick.
Anna Nichole is a plus sized woman, yes, but I have seen some who make her look like a scarecrow on crack.
Yeah, like the people you sometimes read about, who have to be taken out of their houses by the fire department after a wall is removed.
You said it, sportsman. Omar the tentmaker gets their clothing orders for Easter, Christmas, and other times of the year. Anna is getting there, but she is not there yet. She might have the last laugh, though. After all, she IS getting PAID.
Yep, business as usual it would seem. :)
Sorry, she's just *SO* offensive to me ... like I said, the girly in the animated bumpers would give me a stiffy, but I have a problem (even if I were to go for Viagra) getting brake reservoir ready to roll for such a SELFISH number. Now if ya wanna talk about Sandra Bullock, Angelina Jolie, or biologist Ellen Prager or Ellen Barkin or others, YUM ... but Anna? Souieeeee! grunt grunt grunt ...
Even Joe Bruno wouldn't tie her up. :(
Have another KRISPY KREME ... yeah, CNN's CANDY CROWLEY is a BABE compared to tubby ... :)
Ohhh... THAT'S not nice, true maybe, but not nice.
Peace,
ANDEE
Might work -- given the fact that Anna Nicole has pretty much eaten her way to about the size of a Cadillac Escalate (or maybe even a Ford Excursion by now), the Weight Watchers campaign could be a very long-running one even if she did manage to drop all the excess poundage not made of silicone...
Would my 1992 Chev. Cav. get the same respect ?
Don't think Anna Nichole could fit in a Cavalier, see seems to be spending most of Mr. Marshall's oil money on high-caloric products in an attempt to become a real-life version of Jabba the Hut.
STOP! You're KILLING ME! Hahahahahahaha ...
Correction: A silicone-enhanced Jabba the Hutt....
You can BARELY spot the GE silicone for da flab. And I'm no beanpole. :)
LMAO!
It's gears to the SUV driver attitude. They think they rule the road, are better than anyone else, and are invincible to danger. The Escalade, Expeditions, Navigators, and Hummers (are plentiful here in Snob hills) are the rich snob's ultimate dream vehicle.
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, and if you hit the lottery tomorrow, you'd be running out to buy one, IMO.
Peace.
ANDEE
I'd be running out to get out of my apt with cracking walls, no insulation, and a nasty Centipede problem.
You live at Chambers Street?
Well my living room wall looks like Chambers street, the plaster has cracked and fallen off, exposing a brown, stained, and cracked drywall.
The landlord (aka the slumlord) has not fixed it yet. I gave him an ultimatum to get it fixed this week. If it don't get done I am complaining to the Sea Cliff building dept, not that they will do anything.
At least Chambers street isn't in the middle of nowhere, with once an hour bus service! Chambers looks more appealing every day. :-O
I had a landlord like that once. Fortunately, it was only for about five months, and I knew what I was getting myself into so I was prepared to be persistent. I had considered filing a complaint with the building department as well, but the penalties were so small and the grace periods so long that there would have been little point.
Another good reason not to own a Cadillac - not that I needed another one, mind you, but...
I've seen what happens to a car when it gets hit by a train, from the engineer's point of view... staged collision with an emply vehicle for an Operation Lifesaver film down in North Carolina a few years ago... didn't even feel the impact (and almost didn't hear it) from the cab of the locomotive, but there wasn't much left of that Olds 88, and that was at about 20 mph. Not a pretty sight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Many auto makers have these sort of commercials,Nissan has cars skidding sideways on a wet track or Jeep with the vehicle driving in places not even a 4-wheel drive can go, including a slanted rooftop! They usually flash on the bottom of the screen "Professional driver on closed course,do not attempt" disclaimer to protect themselves from the same types of folks that electronic appliance makers do when they enclose with the owners manual, those pamphlets that have a diagram of someone sitting in the bathtub with a radio or TV on the edge of the tub and a big X over it to try and protect them from liability.
1918...The worst subway accident in city history. 97 passengers are killed, and more than 200 hurt, when a train smashes into a tunnel wall along the old Brighton Beach line. An untrained motorman who had crossed a picket line to fill in for striking train workers lost control of the train near the Malbone
Street station - now the Prospect Place station on the D and Q lines.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the station name was always Prospect Park. Malbone was the name of the street above the tunnel.
I believe you are correct, what is now Empire Boulevard was known as Malbone Street. A small piece of Malbone Street runs off Schenectady Avenue. The station was always Prospect Park, as far my info goes (my Mom's old Brooklyn street guide).
wayne
That piece of Malbone St existing now I don't think was an original part of it.
Correct...the Malbone Street of today is NOT related to the original street of the same name. The 'modern' Malbone is a narrow road that runs one block -- it's basically an alley used by officers of the 71st precinct to park their private cars. The 'street' runs from New York Avenue west and ends after about 500 feet.
On the same block is another old Brooklyn street, Clove Road, that dates back to Dutch settler days and runs between Nostrand & New York Avenues on Empire Blvd. check www.forgotten-ny.com for more details...
Most of Malbone St. was renamed Empire Blvd. However, a small St. that is named Malbone St. as you mentioned remains.
#3 West End Jeff
I've heard that the tunnel is...well....haunted. Wouldn't wan to be around ther at 7PM tonight. There have been stories of crews walking through the crash site feeling things grabbing their ankles, hearing screams and such....
That was just BMTman trying to convince them not to mess with his ride. :)
Hey! That's my secret hide-out you're talking about...watch that!
Guess it's a pretty safe one too.....ever seen/heard/felt anything around 7PM? Car running ok? Just curious, yesterday was Halloween after all....
Yes, the day the name Luciano became part of Railroad Lexicon...and perhaps the day that the title "Lucky Luciano" was first used...;)
Does anyone know what happened to Luciano in the years after the accident?
He seems to have dissappeared into thin air, but you can be sure his 'ghost' is present at Branford whenever any wooden equipment is brought out ;)
I understand he moved down south and got a job with a railroad - this was the result:
Luciano's Career Move
And ended his career in retirement, walking away from #315 after laying it up in 1969 on the Green Bay and Western ... photo of Luciano can be spotted here:
foto caption:
"Three minutes ahead of schedule!"
According to Brian Cudahy, Luciano moved to Upstate and went into the real estate business. He is said to have lived a long life, although no date of death was given.
Thanks for the answer. I'm glad he got out of the train business. Some industries promote their scabs into management for a job well done.
May the victims rest in peace.
It would be interesting to know whether there are any survivors of the wreck still around today. Only people who were children at the time would have a chance, and as it was a rush hour train the great majority of the passengers were adults. As best I can remember from the list of the dead in Brian Cudahy's book, only a few were under 20, with the youngest 13 or so, and there's no reason to believe that the age distribution of the survivors was any different. On the other hand, there were three survivors of the Titanic still alive as of about a year ago, and that was six years earlier than Malbone Street (but probably with more children aboard, however).
I would imagine there are still some people who remember the wreck but who were not on the train. My mother remembered the wreck well (also remembered bringing sandwiches to the boys returned from The Great War). She'd be 92 this month if she was still with us, so it's possible some of her contemporaries are still kicking.
As I had posted previously on threads about this topic, there may still be some people who might remember the wreck assuming that they still have their faculties.
My mom is 89 1/2 and in a nursing home. She was 5 1/2 at the time of the wreck and wouldn't remember it. Unfortunately for her, she is suffering from dementia and only remembers certain things on good days.
As with all of us, memory is a selective thing and if there are still survivors of the wreck how sharp are their recollections? How many of us remember things in our elementary school years?
Therefore it would be wonderful to film a survivor's recollections but I would still want to check certain details against documented facts to be sure that the memory is accurate and not a "good story"
Psychological research has suggested that children have to be about ten years of age to have competent memories of newsworthy events. Children who are younger at the time may remember bits and pieces, but probably cannot recall the "big picture" except in retrospect. Of course, ten is not carved in stone, but in most cases the age of understanding doesn't vary by more than a year either way.
What this means is that while someone born after 1908 may have vivid memories of certain aspects of the Malbone Street Wreck, he or she most likely cannot remember the full import of what happened that day, except of course based on things heard or read in subsequent years. While some people aged 94 or older still are in possession of all their faculties, that is the exception rather than the rule. The bottom line is that not too many people are left today who really understood what happened on November 1, 1918.
It's a near certainty that the opening of the IRT in 1904 has passed out of the realm of human memory.
Psychological research has suggested that children have to be about ten years of age to have competent memories of newsworthy events.
For the most part that is probably true. I know it's true in my case. I think major events will have more of an impact though, even for younger children. I remember some bad newscasts from when I was a kid, as well as events such as the Bi-Centenial when I was only about 5. It just sticks in my head as a major event. I remember quite a bit from that day (amazingly, even the subway ride to the city to see the tall ships).
My mother is in her seventies and grew up one block from the Brooklyn Museum. She ofter used the Shuttle and the Prospect Park (Brighton) Station.
I asked her if she ever heard of the "Malbone Street" subway wreck. Her response was, "Where is Malbone Street?" and, " I didn't know that there was ever a wreck there."
Oh well, she may know history, but not that history.
How many of you heard of the 1960 small airplane crash into an apartment building in Park Slope? I think that was around 7th Ave and Flatbush or somewhere near Grand Army Plaza. Two were killed in their bedroom. (In the afternoon) . Anyone remember that?
I know somebody who does, he showed me it a few years ago, it is quite visible on the buildings still
How many of you heard of the 1960 small airplane crash into an apartment building in Park Slope? I think that was around 7th Ave and Flatbush or somewhere near Grand Army Plaza. Two were killed in their bedroom. (In the afternoon) . Anyone remember that?
If we're talking about the same crash, it was quite a bit more serious. A United DC-8 crashed into Sterling Place after a midair collison with a TWA Constellation. All passengers on both aircraft died, IIRC something like 150 people total. Seven or eight people died on the ground in Brooklyn, and several buildings were destroyed including a church. The Constellation crashed at Miller Field in Staten Island, which is near the site of the present-day New Dorp High School, but there were no people on the ground in the vicinity.
Steven Balz was the little boy I remember from the story my grandmother told me who survived the initial crash due to the snow breaking his fall (or something like that).
Unfortunately, his lungs were seared from the smoke and fire and he later after a few days...(I believe there is a memorial for him at/near the chapel of the Methodist Hospital in Park Slope?). Seem to recall that his father dropped whatever loose change was in his son's pocket in the hospital's chapel and that is part of the memorial...
Steven Balz was the little boy I remember from the story my grandmother told me who survived the initial crash due to the snow breaking his fall (or something like that).
Unfortunately, his lungs were seared from the smoke and fire and he later after a few days...(I believe there is a memorial for him at/near the chapel of the Methodist Hospital in Park Slope?). Seem to recall that his father dropped whatever loose change was in his son's pocket in the hospital's chapel and that is part of the memorial...
You are correct about the Methodist Hospital "coins" memorial. There is an account of it, and of the crash, in the book Flatbush Odyssey by Alan Abel.
If I recall one of the buildings hit by the plane in Brooklyn was the Pillar of Fire Church right on the corner of Flatbush. I was in class at Erasmus at the time and went to see the scene afterwards. There was surprisingly a small amount of damage for what was then a pretty large plane. It went down relatively straight. Compare to the devastation from the planes on 9/11, but of course, they were trying... :(
The story of the boy who survived to soon die was especially sad.
If I recall one of the buildings hit by the plane in Brooklyn was the Pillar of Fire Church right on the corner of Flatbush.
Most appropriate, I'd say!
(brimstone sold separately)
The TWA Constellation that left Dayton Ohio at 9:00 AM on December 16 1960, for LaGuardia, collided in a snowstorm over Staten Island at 10:33AM with the United DC-8 bound for Idlewild from Chicago.The TWA fell in 3 sections over S.I. The United tried to continue but crashed in Brooklyn. All 128 aboard both planes perished. Ironically just 4 1/2 years earlier (June 30,1956) a United DC-7 and a TWA Constellation collided over the Grand Canyon-during the day,with clear skies and no turbulence-also killing all 128 aboard both planes.
I remember reading about it in the New York Daily News National Edition that came out once a week and was delivered to California. At that time the News was the largest circulation in American. I remember reading the crash came around Sterling Street in the fall of 1960. I remember asking myself if the people there had gotten over the loss of the Dodgers three years previous. They had torn down Ebbets Field earlier in the year. Yes I remember the accident.
Demolition of Ebbets Field began on February 23, 1960. They held a funeral wake of sorts. Campy was wheeled out behind home plate one last time and Gladys Gooding played some tunes including Thanks For the Memories (wonder if Bob Hope was there). When it came time for the wreckers to start, the first target was the visiting team's dugout.
Only in Brooklyn!
Psychological research has suggested that children have to be about ten years of age to have competent memories of newsworthy events.
Ten? Competent? I think that requires some interpretation. I have clear memories of quite a few things before age 10 that are provable today. I think it depends on how the subject was received, how important the subject was, whether the people around the child discussed it at any length, the impact on the child, repetition of experience, and so on.
Malbone Street was just before my mother's eighth birthday. She misremembered some details of the wreck, such as that the first car was demolished (it was not) but she may be remembering the impressive (but wrong) newspaper headlines of the time First Car Crashes Into Tunnel Pier and Other Cars Grind It to Splinters.
I think we can confuse between age as an issue and people's natural misremembrance of events. In my reseahes I have had people recount experiences that occurred in their 20s and 30s with date details that could not possibly be right.
It's the old story--ask a husband and wife the details of the exact same event that occurred in their mutual presence and see how they compare.
Got my hands on the Nov 1st issue of "The Chief". Mark Daly writes a article about the current state of negotations. At the end I found:
"In 2000, Mr. (Sonny) Hall was named by Mr. (Willy) James as Local 100's representative to the committee to discuss the NYC Transit- MaBSTOA merger (they part of the TA, but seperate from Local 100).
Mr. (Roger) Toussaint, who has feuded with Mr. Hall since taking office, said he would not continue that arrangement. "No one other then myself negotiates for Local 100," he said.
The article also talks about how the new MTA structure may effect 1,200 engineers & project managers, who are part of Locals 375 & 37.
So what else is new?
Roger T. will not stop until he has Sonny Halls' postition in the TWU (which he won't get).
My predictions:
If there is a transit strike, it will be the finale for Local 100. The penalties will bankrupt them. The members will be at the total mercy of the MTA.
Whether or not there is a job action, Roger T. will be voted out at the next Local 100 election and he will fight the results.
(Side prediction: Roger T. will be found guilty of improprieties within his administration and will be forced to resign).
I'll take that bet, as I don't think Roger is THAT stupid.
There are those within the union that think he's doing a gret job.
Some of them work for the "private" bus companies. Can you imagine that, he leaves them out on the cloths line for a month and one-half, gets them back to work with very little to show for it and some think he's doing a great job ? And some said Willy James was in bed with the company ????
As an old Teamster, afer a week I would have been calling for his head!
There are LOTS of people that LOVE Roger. The majority of members don't expect big numbers but they will not go for a crap contract either.
The in-fighting within the TWU Local 100 heirarchy has gotten serious. Members have been censured, other elected officials have been relegated to positions of insignificance. Recently, an internal memo accused some of Roger's men of sending those who are supposed to be at the negotiations, out into the field to handle arbitrations for less important disiplinary cases. The implications are clear - that Local 100 will negotiate with one voice even if all descenting voices have to be silenced.
Prediction: NYC fiscal crisis and the re-organization of the MTA will change the entire dynamics of the negotiations. TWU members will end up paying for part of their health care to make up the $20 million shortage in the health-benifit trust. That will cause tremendous dissatisfaction among rank-&-file members. Feud between Sonny Hall and Roger T, which almost ended in court last summer, will surface again. The national union will emerge as the savior and Roger T. and his pals will be voted out.
I think if the MTA played their cards right they could get a VERY cheap contract thru. Stepping up discipline (maybe the TSS was an ass but someone tried to write me up for bad uniform, on the way to work) and refusing to put anything on the table just makes Roger look better to many people.
I don't think that management actually wants a 'cheap' contract. Just wants one where both sides live up to it. I don't know about other divisions but in the Division of Car Equipment, the local 100 leadership has done everything to subvert the last contract. BTW - despite their protestations about the contract - they (New Directions) were key in the negotiations.
The funding of the health-benifit trust was tied to the Local 100 leadership committing to productivity gains. They've renegged. They've fought the broad-banding of titles in Car Equipment to the extent that THEY've suggested that the $1.00 per hour bonus paid to those in the broad-banded titles be taken away and the titles restored.
The current battleground is the disciplinary process. The union won some significant concessions in the last contract negotiations - yet local 100 has blocked some of the very provisions that they asked for. I, personally, perfer re-instruction in lieu of discipline where possible. However, local union chairmen object to re-instruction and choose to fight it out in arbitration. Don't blame the TSSs for your union's intransigence.
For what little it's worth (since I'm long gone, and my own personal saga is meaningless today) ... "back to schoolcar" would have been a WONDERFUL alternative to "retreat to your previous title, Mr McAleavey? WHAT previous title? You're a PROBIE even IF you were a conducor before." ... but I *got* my yayas years later.
And THANKS to 1689 at BRANFORD for showing ME the way ... the METHOD by which I was hosed ... the lapping "float" was dead in the car I ran to my demise ... jammed. Bad O-ring on the inlet ... NOW, I finally know what happened to me and to Branford, I'm FOREVER grateful for the answer.
But what saddens me personally is to see the same old tired sheet in TWU ... Michael Quill (the Commie) was the LAST person who seemed to GIVE a chit about the TRUE "rank and file" ... geez. :(
Reinstruction may or may no involve school car at least in RTO.
It also matters when it is presented. In RTO almost nothing is done in the field so an offer of reinstructino may in reality just mean 'I am watching you don't screw up again'. Once Control gets a earful it is a different matter and reinstruction is a rung on the ladder out of your job.
We all have a different transit experience down here.
A few months ago you guys gave me the backup on the fact that you can wrap it around without damaging a good order controller. I was 'reinstructed' on that and I was right, no way i am going up the discipline ladder to get alnog. Or in your neck of the woods, I was on board ordered to make a trip and threatented with OOS by a TD for asking what was my interval, here is a big clue, he was promoted very recently.
As for CED broadbanding I do hear compliants, likely from the same people that ran to get that extra dollar and did not think they would get moved or have to do any extra work.
How long is the management program at the TA for RTO managers?
It should be a very interesting contract season, I do believe that both sides would not mind a strike making it a very dangerous game of chicken.
As for the health benefits have you looked at the charts? NYCT employees cost the TA relatively little in health benefits compared to everyone else already.
For any of you T/O's, have any tales of any Halloween misbehavers who caused trouble along the subway lines. You know, general harrassment and eggs.
What is your favorite PCC car style? Pick one and vote:
1) Air-electric style (1936 to 45)
2) All-electric style (1946 to 52)
3) Kansas City all-electric
4) St. Louis/San Francisco car style (1100's)
5) Boston "Picture Window"
6) Washington DC 1400-1500's style
7) PE double enders
8) Chicago "Pre-war" air electrics
9) Chicago "Post War" all electrics
10) The Clark Equipment BRT # 1000
Some of the choices represent some of the variations in the basic PCC carbody designs, because although PCC cars were a standard design, there were some room to do a little customizing based on a company needs. Some companies wanted a certain style, others had operating chatacteristics that necessitated design modifications. For example, Washington DC PCC's were shorter than the average PCC car, while Chicago's were huge monstrosities. So pick, choose and discuss your chioces.
For the record, my choice was the Kansas City All-electric design. I loved that style when SEPTA ran them (2251-2290), and thought they could be the basis for a modern car. Maybe if SEPTA kept them , they would be used for the 15 restoration, rather than the 21-2700's.
I don't see it up there, but I'll write in for the Washington DC 1000-1100 series cars, the ones that looked like they had white snouts painted on front (that was the flash against the green body), they were so ugly they scared the heck out me as a little kid. I remember them vividly on the 40, 42, 90 etc.
wayne
None of the above !
1 = #1, i.e. 1001 from Brooklyn
2 = is Dallas Cars, double enders
3 = Tandy High Platformers
Why did you list #10, only one ever existed ?
This is mostly influenced by the paint scheme, but the PE double-enders are my favorite.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry for the blasphemy, but I fell in love with the all-electrics as used in Newark. Notably #6 after it was fully restored. I *loved* riding those ...
My sentimental favorite has to be the postwar Chicago cars, both the Pullman and St. Louis variations. The triple rear doors could really swallow a crowd very quickly.
Aesthetically, the Kansas City all-electrics had the most pleasing design. Back in the fifties, I thought the standee windows were "modern", but now they seem fussy, and Kansas City was wise to dispense with them.
My vote is a tossup among the P1, P2, and P3 cars in Los Angeles and Chicago's postwar Green Hornets. Had I grown up in L. A., chances are I would have remembered them, as I was 6 when Los Angeles gave up streetcars and can remember some events from 1963. Chicago is another story. There were two lines still up and running by the time I was born, and 7213's last run took place when I was all of 19 months.
My personal favourite would be the TTC A6 cars, which were basically your standard all electric PCC and they were numbered in the 4300s.
Interestingly enough, up here, the A8 (A15 really, I suspect) cars numbered in the 4500s and later 4600s seem to be the favourite because a lot of people like the simplified design, particularly of the interiors. I don't dislike them personally, but I'm not a huge fan of them either because I particularly like the crank windows.
-Robert King
My personal favorites are the original series of St. Louis Car Co. Air-electrics, notably the Brooklyn 1001-99's, Pittsburgh's first two series, LA's P1's, San Diego/ElPaso's cars, Baltimore's original St. Louis' cars and DC's first series. These were the cleanest, original art deco style design. Later series were diluted design wise a bit by practicality and war time shortages.
This is followed on my favorites list by the wide-body TCRT/Newark/Shaker/Mexico City all-electrics.
Though I didn't do much riding in them, I always favored the appearance of the Boston "Picture Window" cars.
As for riding, the San Francisco 1000 series were my favorites there.
I'll go for (1), especially the Pullman version of the standard air-electric as indicated by Baltimore's 248 cars. Only 1 standard air-electic Pullman PCC survives, 7407 at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum
Actually, there 7407 is the only one that operates. There are two more ex-Baltimore cars that have been sitting on the ground out in the country since 1964 or so.
7407 is the only complete 46 foot Pullman-Standard PCC car in existance. All the other "ex-Baltimore cars" are hulks that have been there for almost 40 years. Remember, a streetcar without trucks is not complete.
I was present at the 1964 scrappings, and cars were not treated gently by the scrappers. Trucks were literally torn from the bodies (the cars were picked up about a foot, a scrapper crawled under and cut the retrainers from the kingpins, causing the trucks to drop to the ground as the car was picked further up. The body was then dropped on to a flatbed. I saw cars go out upright, on their sides and several at each barn went out upside down. It wasn't pretty.)
The bodies bought by private parties were hauled off and literally dropped at the buyer's site.
BSM people have been to every surviving body and most are rotting into the ground. At least one hulk has the truck bolsters protruding above the remains of the floor, which is rotted almost totally away. The body was dropped so hard that the welds that hold the bolsters to the car sides have fractured. The bodies are unsalvageable.
Yup 7407 is complete and a beauty as well.
I guess they didn't count on those long kingpins when they literally dropped them off to their new owners!
John Engleman has also filled me in on the "new" car. Its going to be a great project.
Uh, my favorite PCCs are the ones you can still ride. Especially Mattapan...50 or more years of service. Astounding.
Is it possible to transfer the value from a regular metrocard to a senior citizen card?
Thanks
Sometimes. I think it's only the value. But not the time.
Yes
1) What cars does AMTRAK own that were once used as regular passenger cars in the earlier part of the 20th century?
2) What are the names of the rail companies that owned the cars that AMTRAK now has?
3) At Penn Station NY I have seen an antique navy blue colored, coach (?) car tagged behind an AMTRAK's Commuter train. The other day in my hometown, I saw an unreserved (I think) AMTRAK train with two brown-colored antiques speeding behind AMTRAK's normal coach cars.
4) I have also spotted odd-ball colored, small baggage cars at Harrisburg while driving around the roads there. They bear the 3-leaf logo of AMTRAK near the top on a corner and they are dark, olive-green colored. I have never seen them in use before. Can anyone tell me what they are used for?
5) Any other ODDITIES AMTRAK has?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
1) What cars does AMTRAK own that were once used as regular passenger cars in the earlier part of the 20th century?
The only operational cars are the Heritage fleet of non-Amfleet (ie non-ovoid) Budd cars and the former MetroLiner EMU cars now used as control cabs. The MtroLiners were owned by the PRR and I believe operated by the PC so they count. The heritage units had been sidelined, but has been returned to service. They also own 50 or so former Santa Fe Budd Highliners which are similar to the Pullman built Superliners. There need to be restored to service. I am sure that Amtrak has a fleet of previously owned coaches, but Budd and non-Budd, but all of them would either be in MoW service or scattered around rusting on isolated yard tracks. I don't think they have "vintage" stuff like pre-1930.
2) What are the names of the rail companies that owned the cars that AMTRAK now has?
Any Railroad with stainless steel, post 1950 built passenger equipment.
3) At Penn Station NY I have seen an antique navy blue colored, coach (?) car tagged behind an AMTRAK's Commuter train. The other day in my hometown, I saw an unreserved (I think) AMTRAK train with two brown-colored antiques speeding behind AMTRAK's normal coach cars.
If you give Amtrak mucho $ and pass an inspection then they will haul your private car around on the back of an Amtrak train.
4) I have also spotted odd-ball colored, small baggage cars at Harrisburg while driving around the roads there. They bear the 3-leaf logo of AMTRAK near the top on a corner and they are dark, olive-green colored. I have never seen them in use before. Can anyone tell me what they are used for?
There are a bunch of these at Lancaster, their big NEc maintainence yard, New Haven, Springfield Mass, etc. These are just leftover cars that are cheaper to store than to dispose of. They might be used for misc. storage. They are probably former PC cars.
5) Any other ODDITIES AMTRAK has?
These aren't oddities, they are just junk. The only two "oddities" are the Beach Grove and the Corridor Clipper. The former is a VIP car, the latter a wire inspection car. Both were rebuilt from standard Amfleets.
The link to the Trains.com news story is here.
A CSX conductor was shot in the shoulder early on the morning of October
31 near Buffalo, N.Y., while he was walking alongside his 51-car
westbound train.
: From my e-mail.
You would need to sign up for Trains.com to view current railroading updates from across North America. Signing up is very simple.
Unfortunately there are people who continue to plink at trains.
Is that a federal offense? I assume that, since railroad police are empowered to make arrests in any state the railroad operates, that the offender would go to federal court; correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, I would guess the offender SHOULD go to a court in any case. What if the bullet took another course to the chest or the more critical areas of the body? The shooter would be charged for counts of murder if that was the case. The infamous question lies: why did the shooter do it? What was his intent?
BTW what is plink?
Plink is the sound that the bullet supposedly makes on striking the side of the freight car. Hence plinking. It's perfectly harmless if you don't count the property damage and the people who get shot once in a while.
If I was still on the railroad, I'd shoot BACK. While I understand your valued explanation of what it means, I find it incredible that people would actually DO that and that the sound is so "familiar" as to have a word to it. I realize you meant no harm, but SHEESH. I dunno if you're aware of this or not, but MANY railroad crews carry guns, and they KNOW how to use them.
Shooting at a train is a LITERAL death wish, and this little ditty only serves to reinforce dead railfans as "justifiable homicide" ... it's as bad as "throwers" in my day which is why locomotives were equipped with birdcages ... GEEZ ...
I think, maybe, that we have just demonstrated one of the problems with irony. Let me make my position on this "issue" clearer. Shooting at freight trains is right up there with dropping rocks from highway pedestrian overpasses.
Oh, I knew you weren't on the wrong side of the issue, and yeah, the rocks from the overpass thing has been done also. But imagine the surprise on some miscreant's face when the train shoots back! :)
"Unfortunately there are people who continue to plink at trains.
Is that a federal offense?"
It certainly is the state offense of reckless endangerment.
An easy google search gives this for NY State:
Under our law, a person is guilty of Reckless Endangerment in the First Degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, that person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person.
Unfortunately there are people who continue to plink at trains.
Is that a federal offense?
It certainly is the state offense of reckless endangerment.
An easy google search gives this for NY State:
Under our law, a person is guilty of Reckless Endangerment in the First Degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, that person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person.
It could be argued that intentionally shooting at a moving train, especially at the locomotive, could be attempted murder.
What SOME might not realize until it's too late is that BECAUSE of the "Homeland Security" alerts, it is NOW an "act of terrorism." Free winter vacation at Guantanamo with deluxe accomodations.
If you don't want to sign up for Trains, or if you have a slow internet connection and Trains takes forever to download, the story is still available here.
Trains.com news stories:
Amtrak credit rating gets boost from Moody's
Moody's Investors Service on October 29 confirmed Amtrak's A3 bond
ratings, a move that pulled the financially troubled railroad off the
credit agency's watchlist and away from a possible downgrade.
NEWS STORY
Full Acela Express service restored between Boston and New York
Amtrak this week restored a full slate of nine Acela Express round-trips
between Boston and New York City, and launched an ad campaign to tout
the service.
NEWS STORY
It's about time my Acela Express Trainsets came back into full service.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
They aren't. There are plenty of Metroliners between DC and New York (not like they are much slower than the Acela).
According to "Under the Sidewalks of New York," a connection was planned between the Fulton Street El and the DeKalb Avenue Junction, and the many tunnels at DeKalb Avenue were designed to accomodate that connection. It was referred to as the Ashland Place Connection
What was that? Is there an empty trackway down there somewhere?
Not sure, Larry, but IIRC (and I COULD BE WRONG on this) they changed directions and sent the line south onto St.Felix Place instead of straight ahead on Fulton Street. Might be room for two trackways in there after where the 4th Avenue turns off onto Ashland going south. These may have been the route of the intended connection. I think with the Brighton plus the 4th avenue they may have already maxed out the capacity before adding any Fulton El service. Again I may be wrong on this, some of the oldtimers may have more and better details.
wayne
Any evidence of trackways and tunnel headings for the Ashland Place connection were obliterated when the flying junctions were added south of DeKalb Ave. in the 1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
(Any evidence of trackways and tunnel headings for the Ashland Place connection were obliterated when the flying junctions were added south of DeKalb Ave. in the 1950s. )
You mean DeKalb had crossover junctions before that?
I went through a lot of effort to modify the map for BEFORE, so you BETTER appreciate this:
BEFORE
AFTER
The after picture is one of Peter Dougherty's maps on this site. The before picture is a modification of that same map, by me.
Hmmm. It looks like the 4th Avenue express went via tunnel, the 4th Avenue local went via bridge, and the Brighton could do either, but there were really only four tracks going through rather than six.
Cruel irony. Thanks to the Manhattan Bridge, the pre-1950s set up would have worked just fine for the past 20 years. And the trains probably moved through faster.
There is at least one, possibly two errors in pig's drawing each eror multiplied by two (once NB , once SB).
First understand that the arrangement of tracks within DeKalb itself was (from outer wall), Fourth Avenue Local (now Bridge), Brighton Line (now tunnel), Fourth Avenue Express.
The north switches were as follows: double crossovers as shown (Brighton<->Bridge/Tunnel, Fourth Avenue Local<->Bridge/Tunnel) but the other switches were the opposite dierction of what is shown. They were Tunnel<->Fourth Avenue Express (Bypass). This is how the Culver-Nassaus were able to emerge from the tunnel, yet skip DeKalb. I think these was the only three-way passenger operation switches on the subway.
There appears to be a partial error in the suggestion that Brighton trains split north of Dekalb, with one tunnel (the one that now goes to the bridge track) east of another tunnel to the bypass track (the one that now goes to the tunnel track).
My memory is that there was only the one tunnel running directly into what is now the DeKalb tunnel track, with no switches whatever between Atlantic and DeKalb on the Brighton. Although I can't find it in documentary evidence (but my records are hardly complete), apparently there was once a switch which allowed Brighton-Nassaus to bypass DeKalb by switching over in the short area where the Brighton and Fourth Avenue Express tracks run side-by-side. It would seem this switch was removed in the very earliest stages of reconfiguring DeKalb.
On the issue of the Ashland Place connection, this was part of the BMT's plans to operate efficient services to downtown via its loop system, and to give Fulton Street trains entrance to midtown. The City would probably never have allowed them to complete this (IMO) unless the City gave up its Unification plans and there were an entirely new attitude in city government other than the general Hylan/LaGuardia position. Things might have been different if Jimmy Walker hadn't been so corrupt and had been able to serve a full two or three terms, and there were no Depression and so on, and so on, and so on...
I'm always glad to see someone interesting himself in historical arcana, Larry, but is there any other motive in your recent historical questions?
(I'm always glad to see someone interesting himself in historical arcana, Larry, but is there any other motive in your recent historical questions?)
You don't imagine me as someone interested in history for history's sake? Well, you're right.
You're all aware of the disasterous LIRR to Cranberry proposal. In addition to making he F wait behind the G at 4th, the C at Jay, and the C again as it waits behind the A at W 4th, the "extra capacity" in the Rutgers Tunnel is only extra if you assume the Mahattan Bridge is fully functioning for the next 100 years plus. As you know, I'm dubuious.
In any event, if the bridge were fully open, and we had to lose tunnel capacity, the capacity to lose (from Brooklyn's point of view) is the Montigue. Twelve TPH is plenty there for Brooklyn, and additional Broadway Locals from the north could relay at Whitehall. As for the JMZ, as you know I think 12 8-car Vs taking the place of the J/Z would be better deal for Broadway Brooklyn riders -- 2/3 of whom switch at Essex -- than the current arrangement. The M train could relay at one the west side of Chambers.
That leaves the Nassau Street side for the Jamaica suburban express, with up to 18 trains per hour from Jamaica and an easy cross platform transfer to an empty train for LIRR riders. The train could roll into the east side of Chambers (with its own platform), proving three well-posistioned stops. As I've said previously, I understand the suburban objection to changing at Atlantic and Grand Central. Unlike the PATH transfer at Newark and Hoboken, you have to get on an already crowded train in the middle of its run, with the dwell time of previous stops adding variability. This would be different.
Better yet, from there the "Snobway" could roll out the pre-Christie Manny-B tracks into what could become the express tracks of the Second Avenue Subway, and go non-stop up and over to Grand Central. It is only by aligning interests with the powerful from outside the city that we'll ever get that thing built.
That leaves a couple of problems. What about the Manny B? Well, if the Rutgers-DeKalb connection were built at the same time Brooklyn would be better off than it is now if one half of the bridge were once again lost, though still dead meat if it all was. That's a "break even."
Second, how do you get from the LIRR tracks into the Montigue Tube?
You're all aware of the disasterous LIRR to Cranberry proposal.
/* Begin rant mode *
This (the proposal, not you) is the ranting of non-technical people who like to draw lines on maps. I don't consider any of these proposals serious. In fact, I don't consider a lot of the proposals for which they pay consulting firms millions of dollats to "study" serious either. Perhaps we should be grateful for the "interests" who give us their brainstorms for free, when they could charge big bucks for them, if only they could bend the right ears.
/* End rant mode *
That leaves a couple of problems. What about the Manny B? Well, if the Rutgers-DeKalb connection were built at the same time Brooklyn would be better off than it is now if one half of the bridge were once again lost, though still dead meat if it all was. That's a "break even."
Second, how do you get from the LIRR tracks into the Montigue Tube?
In my semi-professional opinion, being involved in details of the system and the particular area you're describing for many decades, there is no excess capacity anywhere in the area that could be effectively used for any non-subway purpose.
Truth is, people are trying to accomplish something om the cheap, but these things rarely work. If, for some reason, there were a tunnel crossing that were completely unused (as, for the present, the 63rd Street tunnel lower level) it would make sense to see how it could be used effectively. But this is not the case.
I think the issue must be cast as a question of what service is provided. Talking about commuter rail vs. subway has an underlying demagoguery that obscures the broader issues, because the one thing city riders and suburbans riders have in common is that they are mostly just people who use mass transit on a daily basis to get to work, shopping and recreation. Therefore, we need to ask if its in the broad public interest to provide a new mainline to distribute these riders to city destinations, instead of depending on often-overburdened subway lines to do the work.
If the real issue were suburban snobs who didn't want to rub elbows with the proletariat, I would be the first to say fuhgeddaboutit.
If the job should be done, it should be done right--build all new facilities to carry the suburban trains and leave the subway be. This might mean only to the financial district or it might mean a loop up to 63rd Street that Metro North could also participate in.
If the job shouldn't be done, it shouldn't be done. Period.
It might amuse you to know that one of the first letters-to-the-editor I ever wrote was to The New York Times in opposition to the 40-years-ago idea to route LIRR trains (than 60 feet or so long) into the Brighton Line at Atlantic Avenue, through DeKalb, and through the Nassau Loop. I cited provisions of the Dual Contracts that prohibited operation of non-City services.
The first paid piece of writing I ever did was about the plans for Christie Street. It was for the New York Journal American and I was paid $25, not a bad sum in those days. I wonder what Hylan would have thought if he knew that he and I were both connected to Hearst. ;=)
(It might amuse you to know that one of the first letters-to-the-editor I ever wrote was to The New York Times in opposition to the 40-years-ago idea to route LIRR trains (than 60 feet or so long) into the Brighton Line at Atlantic Avenue, through DeKalb,
and through the Nassau Loop. I cited provisions of the Dual Contracts that prohibited operation of non-City services.)
I guess if you were against it then, it logically follows that you are against it now. The RPA proposed a new tunnel as part of two proposals, but business interests would likely oppose. Unable to stop spending on Medicaid, they try to stop it where they can.
If they want to do something on the cheap, perhaps they should run extend the LIRR to the waterfront, and have folks cross to Lower Manhattan via ferry.
(It might amuse you to know that one of the first letters-to-the-editor I ever wrote was to The New York Times in opposition to the 40-years-ago idea to route LIRR trains (than 60 feet or so long) into the Brighton Line at Atlantic Avenue, through DeKalb, and through the Nassau Loop. I cited provisions of the Dual Contracts that prohibited operation of non-City services.)
I guess if you were against it then, it logically follows that you are against it now. The RPA proposed a new tunnel as part of two proposals, but business interests would likely oppose. Unable to stop spending on Medicaid, they try to stop it where they can.
Well, over the course of 40 years ago, one does get new and different perspectives on things, and situations change as well, but, yes, you are correct, I am still against the plan now. The basic things I learned about transportation then are, I think, mostly as valid in 2002 as they were in 1962, or for that matter, 1922. But, before someone assumes I intend to bring back horsecars (except in Prospect Park, of course) new times require new ways of looking at solid ideas.
If they want to do something on the cheap, perhaps they should run extend the LIRR to the waterfront, and have folks cross to Lower Manhattan via ferry.
I think ferries are underutilized as a distributor in a compact area like lower Manhattan. Still, I think this could only be a stopgap. A Brooklyn shore terminal would necessarily have to be pretty deep if it were not to preclude a future tunnel.
As you know, I am pretty upset about the two sets of political rules that seem to apply to urban dwellers/minorities/immigrants and the suburban middle class. Arranging your life to qualify for welfare is freeloading, giving money to your kids to qualify for Medicaid (so the kids don't have to pay for you) is never questioned. School spending is never high enough in the suburbs, a lower level of spending in NYC is waste. Etc.
Nonetheless, there are many folks who are upset about these inequities who refuse to see the other side of things, and see inequities where there are none. I can accept that having to get on an already-packed train at Atlantic Ave, having already traveled a long distance, is not a quality commute. So I can understand the advantage of transferring to an empty train at Jamaica.
What bothers me is the complete disregard for the effect of this on the residents of Brooklyn and their needs. It is a non-issue for those pushing the proposal. They think Brooklyn's pols can be bought off, since they all drive anyway, with a little patronage. And they are probably right.
Nonetheless, there are many folks who are upset about these inequities who refuse to see the other side of things, and see inequities where there are none. I can accept that having to get on an already-packed train at Atlantic Ave, having already traveled a long distance, is not a quality commute. So I can understand the advantage of transferring to an empty train at Jamaica.
But a lot of subway commuters also have to get on already-packed trains. What makes LIRR commuters more deserving of seats?
(But a lot of subway commuters also have to get on already-packed trains. What makes LIRR commuters more deserving of seats?)
On the subway, those who get the crowded trains also get the shorter commutes, while those with longer rides get seats. There is a kind of rough justice there. Those riding the LIRR have already had a long ride.
Those with the shortest commutes pay the most per mile. I don't think anyone has a right to a seat, but if that right belongs to anyone, it belongs to those who pay the most per mile. Especially since crowding standards on commuter rail systems are already very generous compared to crowding standards on the subway. The 1 train I boarded this morning (and it was about as crowded this morning as it is any Sunday morning) was more crowded than a typical LIRR rush hour train.
Nobody forces LIRR commuters to be LIRR commuters -- they're welcome to move to the city if they prefer. Each person who makes that move slightly reduces the strain on the overall transportation network. So why do we give people incentives to move out of the city?
The big incentive for many is owning your own home. Sure mortage and property taxes may be a little more than what you pay for rent IF you choose wisely...and co-ops are never really 'yours.' Plenty of decent land to build decent homes in the South Bronx...only the incentive is missing! My rent controlled apartment in Manhattan is not inexpensive and offers me nothing now...I'd accept the first buy-out and make some changes. CI Peter
That's an incentive to some and a disincentive to others, but whatever it is, it's intrinsic. Of course people are going to make decisions based on stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with that.
But when we start taking money out of the hands of group X and placing it into the hands of group Y -- and then argue that group X should give even more to group Y -- one might expect such a subsidy to counteract an opposing hidden subsidy. Not so here -- we've set up our transportation system to complement the hidden subsidies with more subsidies.
And we wonder what happened to NYC in the 70's.
Thanks David. The subsidies are uncountable...they are everywhere not to be found. So at OUR demonstration last week, I had an arguement with one of those 'preserve the fare' people...their claim is that other cities have a much higher mass transit subsidy than NYC.
My arguement is that despite the conditions of travel, $ 1.50 is a cheap ride for the available LONGER DISTANCES without zoning systems.
Those with the shortest commutes pay the most per mile. I don't think anyone has a right to a seat, but if that right belongs to anyone, it belongs to those who pay the most per mile.
Those who pay the most per mile to ride the subway are the very commuters you'e complaining about, paying full fare to travel from Atlantic Avenue or Penn Station to their work destinations.
Especially since crowding standards on commuter rail systems are already very generous compared to crowding standards on the subway. The 1 train I boarded this morning (and it was about as crowded this morning as it is any Sunday morning) was more crowded than a typical LIRR rush hour train.
The average Long Island Rail Road commuter who also takes the subway pays five times the average non-student subway fare. (Source: Metropolitan Transportation Authority estimate for 2002)
Nobody forces LIRR commuters to be LIRR commuters -- they're welcome to move to the city if they prefer.
And you're welcome to move to the suburbs. They're not all expensive, but the price of the commute might break you.
All of this misses the important point that The Politics of Resentment is a bad way to frame public policy. New York City is not the premier economic center of the country because it's been kissed by the Commercial Fairy, especially in an era when more and more business can be done from your desktop, and from businesses located outside core cities. Transportation made the City what it is. The more inconvenient you make access to the City for people who work and do business, the more likely the City will lose its position.
People forget the 70's awfully fast, when a lot of the land in prime areas of the city was more valuable as parking lots than commercial space.
Those who pay the most per mile to ride the subway are the very commuters you'e complaining about, paying full fare to travel from Atlantic Avenue or Penn Station to their work destinations.
Larry was arguing that suburban commuters shouldn't have to stand on the subway since they've already had a long ride on the train. I responded by treating the entire ride as a unit, as he was. Now you want to split it up again. If you want to argue that suburban riders deserve different treatment (and I realize that it's Larry, not you, who made that argument, but you seem to be advancing it), you can't split it up.
Besides, some of the busiest stations in the subway system are on the Upper East Side and Upper West Side, and many of their passengers ride a shorter distance than from Atlantic Avenue to lower Manhattan. Their trains are more crowded, too, and they have fewer alternatives to choose from. They pay $1.36 for a single ride or $63 for a month's worth. I don't know if LIRR monthly ticketholders are eligible for discounted MetroCards (I thought they were, but I can't find any mention on the LIRR website), but Metro-North monthly ticketholders can get access to NYCT for $25, a 60% discount.
The average Long Island Rail Road commuter who also takes the subway pays five times the average non-student subway fare. (Source: Metropolitan Transportation Authority estimate for 2002)
And the average Long Island Rail Road commuter who also takes the subway rides over five times the distance of the average non-student subway ride.
A common ride from my home station at 86th Street is to Times Square. Let's say that's three miles (it's actually closer to two). It costs 45 cents per mile for a single ride or $21 per mile for a 30-day unlimited. At that rate, assuming similar crowding conditions, the LIRR fare from Woodmere to Penn Station (20.4 miles) should be $9.18 one-way or $428.40 for 30 days. A one-way ticket actually costs only $6.25 or $4.25 (21-30 cents per mile) and a monthly costs $135 ($6.61 per mile). At those rates I should be paying 90 cents or less for a single trip to Times Square or $19.83 per month -- in a padded seat.
And you're welcome to move to the suburbs. They're not all expensive, but the price of the commute might break you.
Sorry, not interested. I lived for 3.5 years in a quasi-suburban setting, although I could walk anywhere I needed to go on a daily basis and the bus service was excellent by suburban standards. My apartment was dirt cheap but I couldn't wait to get out of there.
Even if I'm willing to subsidize others' transportation (because it's the only way I can live the lifestyle I want to live), that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it -- or that I have to think it's good policy. Because it's very bad policy.
All of this misses the important point that The Politics of Resentment is a bad way to frame public policy. New York City is not the premier economic center of the country because it's been kissed by the Commercial Fairy, especially in an era when more and more business can be done from your desktop, and from businesses located outside core cities. Transportation made the City what it is. The more inconvenient you make access to the City for people who work and do business, the more likely the City will lose its position.
Exactly. Instead of spending money first on transportation for the suburbs, spend money first on transportation for the city. Why? Greater bang for the buck. The same money will move more people on the subway than on commuter rail. And improving transportation in the city will encourage people to live in the city, where they too can be efficiently served by the subway.
People forget the 70's awfully fast, when a lot of the land in prime areas of the city was more valuable as parking lots than commercial space.
I grew up in the 70's. I remember the 70's all too well. The 70's happened because, in the preceding decades, we built a lot of underpriced transportation facilities to the suburbs while allowing the city's transportation facilities to rot. I don't want the 70's to happen again, even if this time the catalyst is the LIRR rather than the LIE.
(Besides, some of the busiest stations in the subway system are on the Upper East Side and Upper West Side, and many of their passengers ride a shorter distance than from Atlantic Avenue to lower Manhattan. Their trains are more crowded, too, and they have fewer alternatives to choose from.)
That's an argument to build the Second Avenue subway which, despite what Ron in Bayside might say, is likely to be pulled once the election is over "we must defer our dreams" (but others must not?). As for the west side, there is capacity to add trains on the IND local, but folks won't walk over and ride it.
(People forget the 70's awfully fast, when a lot of the land in prime areas of the city was more valuable as parking lots than commercial space.0---- I grew up in the 70's. I remember the 70's all too well. The 70's happened because, in the preceding decades, we built a lot of underpriced transportation facilities to the suburbs while allowing the city's transportation facilities to rot. I don't want the 70's to happen again, even if this time the catalyst is the LIRR rather than the LIE.)
There is a point there. The rest of the state is trying to kill the city with differential school aid and tax burdens, not transportation policies. But transportation is the one reason that everyone with a child doesn't leave.
That's an argument to build the Second Avenue subway which, despite what Ron in Bayside might say, is likely to be pulled once the election is over "we must defer our dreams" (but others must not?).
Or to build the 7 train extension, or to spend money widening bottlenecks, or to spend money simply running more service.
(I'm not going to take sides on what's going to happen on 2nd Avenue, but let's just say that I'll believe it when I ride it.)
As for the west side, there is capacity to add trains on the IND local, but folks won't walk over and ride it.
Of coure not. It's poorly located, it has relatively infrequent service, and it doesn't lead to the most useful transfer points.
There is capacity to add trains on the IRT local, too. The 1/9 currently runs at about 5-minute headways, at least on paper. The sticking point seems to be terminal capacity at 242nd, but there are at least six places other than 242nd that the extra locals can terminate.
There's also capacity to add trains on the IRT express, but at the expense of direct Flatbush-East Side service. (The number of Flatbush trains can remain and the number of East Side trains can remain; it's the through routing that cuts into West Side capacity.)
But adding service costs money.
There is a point there. The rest of the state is trying to kill the city with differential school aid and tax burdens, not transportation policies. But transportation is the one reason that everyone with a child doesn't leave.
Don't get me wrong -- the city's transportation system, while imperfect, is quite good. But city residents are still expected to bear the brunt of many of the transportation costs incurred by suburban residents. That chases some people away to the suburbs -- and leaves those of us who remain with even more suburban transportation costs to worry about.
The first paid piece of writing I ever did was about the plans for Christie Street. It was for the New York Journal American and I was paid $25,
So what did you think about Christie St at the time?
I thought it was a bad idea to route the bulk of BMT southern division service up 6th Avenue with no Broadway service at all for the Brighton and West End Lines. I haven't changed my mind.
I've made the appropriate modifications. Check to see.
I have a question though. I've seen a map (unfortunately, I don't rememember where, hence my own effort here) showing the old configuration as I originally drew it.
Why did the BMT build the junction northbound after Myrtle, but not southbound? Or is the presence of the northbound junction another error?
The flying junction on the northbound side after Myrtle Ave. was there before the reconstruction, but the place where the two legs joined on the east (now 6th Ave.) side was moved further north (presumably to allow the tracks to accommodate 600' long trains. On the southbound side, there was just a double crossover north of Myrtle Ave. station (missing from the drawing).
-- Ed Sachs
I wasn't looking at the part north of Myrtle, but Ed Sachs already answered your question that there was a double crossover north of Myrtle on the southbound side so that trains from Nassau Street or Broadway could eitehr make or skip DeKalb and Myrtle.
The flyunder northbound was the reason that no BMT Standard train was to be run with more than one BX unit ... the grade was just too much. Yet the Standards were surprisingly peppy considering that they were no powerhouses (to be polite).
So, in view of the updated diagram, the simplest pattern with the old tracks would have been:
Brighton - Montague - Broadway Local / Nassau St
4th Av Local - Bridge South Side - Nassau St
4th Av Express - Bridge North Side - Broadway Express
Unca Fred would like that...
See above for second modification including crossover north of Myrtle.
Critique as necessary!
I recently re-did the before map. It was lost to a file corruption.
If you haven't seen it before, see it now!
Paul Matus's comment about the connector from the Brighton just north of Atlantic Avenue station to the DeKalb by-pass is correct. I rode the Brighton Special a number of times on that track. It was perhaps the very first casualty of the DeKalb rebuilding.
But I don't understand what he's talking about when he mentions the double crossovers and bypass-to/from-tunnel north of old DeKalb--the drawing is accurate.
The only thing the DeKalb rebuilding accomplished, except for longer platforms and closing of the curved platforms on the south end, was to move all the delays getting into the station from the southbound side to the northbound side, though when the Bridge was still in full operation, there seemed to have been a lot of delays while Broadway trains yielded to Sixth Avenue service.
The rebuild was another example of favoring Manhattan over Brooklyn--the rebuilding separates trains by Manhattan route northbound while the Brighton/Fourth Avenue separation occurs after DeKalb rather than on the platforms.
BTW, for trains coming out of the tunnel, home signal indications were green or yellow over green for Brighton (straight ahead), over yellow for Fourth Avenue (to the outside wall), and over blue for the bypass track to the left.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
But I don't understand what he's talking about when he mentions the double crossovers and bypass-to/from-tunnel north of old DeKalb--the drawing is accurate.
Pig corrected the drawing based on my comments--and it is now accurate. Is that what you're referring to, Ed?
It's possible I only got the corrected version, so that would clear up my confusion.
Ed Alfonsin
No. On the northbound, right where the bridge and tunnel tracks diverge, there is a bellmouth coming from the south/east. It seems if both Ashland and the existing Flatbush line had been built (it may have actually been one or the other), then the Ashland line from the Fulton would have fed into the bridge and the Flatbush from Atlantic Av. would have fed into the tunnel, with a diamond crossover (the current "wye" diverge is acually apart of what would have been).
IIRC on the Brighton Line leaving DeKalb, before the train makes the right hand turn to enter Atlantic, there is a turn-off there that I think was to have been the connection to the Fulton Ave El. I have no idea how far that tunnel goes. There is some machinery there to block the view.
The IRT was supposed to have had a connection before the line goes into Nevins St. I think that was to have gone along Lafayette Ave. But that whole section of Brooklyn has different provisions for different lines that for one reason or another didn't happen.
That makes sense, since its under Ashland place there...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/promo11_02/index.html
"Buy MetroCard® using your MasterCard® card and you could enjoy dinner for two at a Zagat Survey top-rated restaurant every month for an entire year!"
Now this something to talk about! :)
Maybe SEPTA should do that here. Imagine eating at Susannah Foo's or Le Bec Fin every month for free for a year.
Just being able to get a reservation at one of those places without being on a long waiting list is a miracle.
There was also a nationwide contest on Clear Channel Radio. The 50th person nationwide would win $50,000. The odds are about as good as winning 12 dinners at a Zagat rated restaurant. Slim if at all.
$50,000? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOO!
Tragic story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/columnists/ny-lirr1101,0,1837616.story?coll=ny%2Dlinews%2Dfeatured
Sad story indeed, but what the hell was he doing, lying on the tracks? Did he want to take a nap? Give me a break!
Forgive me for putting it this way, but I'm sure some enterprising barrister will get a jury to penalize LIRR for not tucking him in. :(
Common sense would dictate that even "F. You Bailey" couldn't make a case against the LIRR. Then again, it's been said that no one ever lost money betting on the stupidity of the general public.
Yo! We'll find out in four more days. Moo. :)
Well, I have to agree with you there. NY Governor's race has me scratching my head. Hillary appearing with Pataki means McCall is dead. He should be able to find work as an employment agency exec. But if you believe Galisano's ads, pataki should be making license plates instead of appointing the DMV Commish.
N.J. doesn't suprise me. Lousenburg (the resurrected mummified fossil) will be elected and the democratic proces will be set back an entire century in the Garbage State. Minnesota voters seem to be a little less gullible. The fossil, Mondale is fading fast after the initial spike in popularity. Control of the Senate is at stake. Democrats are desperate. Unfortunately, their bullpen is weaker than the one the Mets have.
As I keep trying to explain to SeaBits Fred when he slaps that "L" label on me, Noo Yawk's a WEIRD place. The REPUBS are the "tax and spenders" while the dems are the tightwads ... OUTSIDE of NYC where standard deviations still apply. Paturkey's just a hand puppet, always was ... BRUNO is our leader and he's an OLD style Rockefeller Liberal. Check your school taxes and county tax medicaid adjustment this year if you doubt me. BRUNO pulls the strings throughout which is why we're in such a FREAKING MESS.
I think Hillary pretty much sums it up, yet the a$$hole's going to get reupped. And when the bill that boy runs up comes due in January, folks are gonna flip OUT when they see their PATAXI. :)
But yeah, we has MET the enema and he is US. Heh. Vote for Goober, he'll put Galisano BACK on the mothership.
Actually, in New York it's whoever's in power for more than one term becomes so indebted to the special interests they become the "tax-and-spend" person, while the other side runs on fiscal responsability. Then if they do get into office (see "Pataki, George") they start courting the people who can get them the most money and votes, even if their political philosophies seem 180 degrees apart (see "Rivera, Dennis").
What's going to be interesting is seeing where Pataki goes after this election -- outside of replacing Tommy Thompson at HHS in the Bush administration, there's no way his current record is going to let him go anywhere in national Republican politics, and if he runs for a fourth term he will have a tough time against AG Elliott Spitzer, who is almost guarenteed to seek the job (unless the husband of George's new bud Hillary wants it...)
That's OK ... when Selkirk twirls the political turnstyle in two years, we'll all be here laughing our bolts off over VICE PRESIDENT RUDY snubbing the shrub. But yeah, you've got it right. But ya gotta admit, if you WATCH the numbers like we do up here in "Capital Land" (yes, Albanians spell "Capitol" as "Capital" and it's CORRECT! [?!?!?!]) PaTAXi has outspent CUOMO ... never thought I'd see the day.
Then again, Bruno's out for a legacy ... this link will DIE overnight Sunday night, but for now, it's still lit ... this is MISTER Shake down Amtrak so they had to cancel a BUNCH of upstate Amtrak trains (*OUR* subway) to pay for his phucking train station ...
Bruno engineers legacy
Just check out the BIG BRASS CLANGERS this sc*mbag has ... and his "tech vallee" STILL can't get DSL, much less TECHNOLOGY ... and ya wonder why I'm so cynical? Hell ... even MARIO would have done the state better than Bruno and his handpuppet (which he actually takes out of his pants every now and then) ... Bruno's butt buddy, Goober.
yes, Albanians spell "Capitol" as "Capital" and it's CORRECT! [?!?!?!]
Last I checked, a city is a "capital" and a building is a "capitol."
But do they know that in Albany?
You'd THINK that any of the downstate papers would have DARED to print what our local Hearst outlet did in the previous link. YEP, ***EACH*** of the New York newspapers ALSO got to suck at the state teat in order to rejoice in their Paturkey seven course meal.
But DO pass it on while it lasts, the ARROGANCE is stunning. And THIS is the man who puppeteers the state government, with Paturkey being his Punch and Judy show. And the phucker's going to get re-elected because of the diversionary sidewalk act. Geez ...
Four more days of Selkirk ranting, then I put the handpuppet BACK in the pants for just a little under two years, I promise. :)
(Control of the Senate is at stake. Democrats are desperate. Unfortunately, their bullpen is weaker than the one the Mets have.)
The Democratic Party has been brain dead since the Great Society era. To the extent it has leaders, it is those from those era, and to the extent it caters to interests, it is the non-profits formed to take public money at that time (along with public employee pensioners supported by the remaining "machine" Democrats). Aside from careerists and opportunists, and those who don't like Republicans, there is nothing else where.
The Republicans, however, have been brain dead since the early 1980s. They seem mentally active by comparison, because the body is still warm.
And Ronald Reagan was his OWN favorite vegetable.
DAMNED sad, but entirely *TRUE* ... maybe it's time to reconsider the DRAFT ... for OFFICE ... "The President of the United States, with this subway token affixed to this letter WELCOMES you to Congress." Failure to report is punishable by ten years imprisonment and a $500,000 fine.
I've always felt that the BEST legislation is provided by 100-500 crazy guys and gals, sealed into an edifice with reinforced concrete for a term, issued ONE index card and a box of crayons. Those serving would be entitled to EXCHANGE index cards and crayons with one another, and when the index cars were fully marked on all sides regardless of the trading involved, would issue forth LAW ... then be sent home.
As long as we're PAYING these sc8mbags to "generate law" then we might as well legalize prostitution. It's the SAME thing, only the hookers at least put a SMILE on your face, however briefly. 'word.
(As long as we're PAYING these sc8mbags to "generate law" then we might as well legalize prostitution. It's the SAME thing, only the hookers at least put a SMILE on your face, however briefly. 'word. )
Other states are not as bad as ours. Even the federal Congress is not as bad as our state legislature.
One example. In Michigan, everyone knew the system of school finance was inequitable and unfair, but it never changed because special interests would rally people against any and all alternatives. So what did they do? The repealed the entire school finance system, effective at a specific future date, so something HAD to be done. Not some special deal for some interest, but an overall solution for everyone.
As it happened, two proposals had a lot of support but neither one could get a majority. Time was running out, so what did they do? They submitted both to the people for a referendum, and the winner became law. How's THAT for effective, representative government.
Why do we allow this to continue.
And BTW, you are only madder at the Republicans because you live upstate surrounded by them, so THEY sold YOU out. Down here, we've been sold out the DEMOCRATS. Yes, Bruno is a scum, but Silver? ARRRGH!
Actually, I *admire* Shelley because, as upstaters, he's the *ONLY* politicain with a modicum of STONES against DA BRUNO ... Paturkey has demonstrated time and time again that he PREFERS to take it up the bungholio from the Brunolio ... Geez ... for all of his faults, Padre Cuomo at LEAST made Bruno apply some "love lotion" first. :(
Those of us here on Subtalk have at least had SOME exposure to what a COMPLETE DISGRATIATA Joe Bruno is, and Paturkey keeps asking HOW WIDE to spread his cheeks for that pelvic exam. In all my days as a NYS resident (and PROUD to be one), I've never seen a butt plug like our Paturkey. Joe Bruno is also "Mister let's get rid of RENT CONTROL" and a myriad other porkings of the public. Yet people HERE whine about Bloomberg, like HE has any control.
It's the PATURKEY, dammit ... and he's Joe Bruno's BITCH ... GEEZ. And we're going to elect Joe Bruno's bitch AGAIN? Nevermind. Let's *DO* the 'ho ... but if folks complain about their PaTAXis, or whine about the subways being cut by 25%, I just don't wanna hear it, you've ALL been warned and yet Bruno's handpuppet will be re-anointed. SHAME on EVERYBODY ... you COULD have had H Carl McCall ... he would have tightened the purse strings, but at least ya woulda had pocket change and no 30% tax hikes ...
And YES, Division of the budget figures on a 10% sales tax come next year along with a 30% hike in other taxes. Mayor Mike wasn't up for re-up THIS year, so he was able to mitigate the impact for CITY residents by charging it up when he did. Those of us beholden to the PANDER BEAR ... well ... Pope on a rope. :(
TWU - NOTHING, but many give-backs, City stuck with 4.5 billion in NEW taxes from upstate, GE gets cash refund. You'll see. It ain't just Selkirk getting DSL, we're all gonna get SHAFTED, hurricane style. Truth will be available in four weeks once the recounts are done.
TWU - NOTHING, but many give-backs, City stuck with 4.5 billion in NEW taxes from upstate, GE gets cash refund. You'll see. It ain't just Selkirk getting DSL, we're all gonna get SHAFTED, hurricane style. Truth will be available in four weeks once the recounts are done.
Well you know Selkirk, you seem to be more or less self-employed, i.e. with a "mobile" occupation, not like those of us occupationally tied to the state, so you may be able to take advantage of the ideal solution to New York's incomptent government, namely the North American Van Lines solution.
I would have, ***LONG*** ago ... alas, I bought ACRES of land upstate, I really *LOVE* being a New Yorker (travelled the WHOLE country, and yet there's no place LIKE NEw York, especially UPSTATE despite Bruno) ... I couldn't IMAGINE living anywhere else.
But yes, being a TRUE conservative (BARRY GOLDWATER HAD A CLUE, AND SO DID BILL BUCKLEY) Bruno and his whips and chains surrogates REALLY pythes me arf - we have ENOUGH sense *not* to run a high tech BUSINESS out of "Tech Valley" ... after all, to DO the internet, you need at LEAST DSL and that's all we ******PAID****** Joe Bruno (through WMHT) to do for his "legacy" and the mute vamm IGNORED us, preferring to discuss TABLE MANNERS at the FORT ORANGE CLUB when we PAID for his ass. But I digress.
Those of us who *ARE* the "Tech Valley* didn't even get a Job Blob out of the punkass. Nope, he pissed away the time trying to hustle us to come to his trailer park chithole and try to find out how much CASH we had to give him, rather than solving the problems of HUNDREDS of software companies already here in Voorheesville, NY 12186 in getting anything better than 33k baud. Yep, MOVE to the Troyley and PAY me for doing this to you, said the Joe.
Up your ARSE, we said. That's why we have to accept a check once a month from MINNESOTA for what we make HERE in New York ... after all, if the BEST you can do is 33k dialup and you're an internet CORPORATION in No YUK, we had no choice but to have a MINNESOTA company *be* us and we end up with a "royalty check" ... WE wrote the software, we do the support, but because New York would rather suck Darth Vader's twisted pair ("Verizon, A/K/A "Change NY" which *is* paturkey and Bruno, number please) that enable "high tech jobs" in New York such as *WE* created back in 1996, well ... we have to accept a royalty from Minnesota instead of doing it ALL "Made in New York" because of the pea-sized brains of Bruno and Paturkey, who'd rather shake down AMtrak for a monument.
Rest assured, all of my grievances are QUITE PERSONAL ... most folks are EMPLOYEES ... Nancy and I are "ontapanoors" who made the TRAGIC mistake to set up our company in NOO YAWK ... we COULD have been in Bimini. But no, we LOVE NEW YORK, and thsu we gets SHAFTED like any OTHER empliter in this backwards, Ozark morass. I still LOVE living here and contibuting, but JOE BRUNO and the PATURKEY PHUCKED us and continue to do so each waking moment ...
PHUCK 'EM ... Vote for H Carl McCall for "goober" ... H Carl is a NEIGHBOR of ours, I know him personally and he's a GREAT guy ... WITH a clue ... but no, he be a nigger, screw that. :(
Wait until you SEE the unlubricated reality come January if Paturkey makes it his "whoops, promise you TWO terms, I forgot how to count because I short-sheeted the schools."
I vote democratic because they are clearly the lesser evil. My views span both sides of the political spectrum and I will vote for som Republican canidates on the local level if I know them. Despite my opposition to gun control and my favour of tort reform, Republicans are the party of greed, exclusiveness and mass disempowerment and not only that they have the gaul to try to pass themselves off as something else. The only reason anyone votes for them is because they pander to the concerns of the stupid/un-educated (religion, taxes, ones "rights" to hurt/impact others), a demographic that is unable to see through their lies.
TRAILER parks LOVE them ... Republicans these days are like the lottery, EVENTUALLY you'll hit the number. Yeah, if you're KEN LAY (who is STILL walking the streets)
(The only reason anyone votes for them is because they pander to the concerns of the stupid/un-educated (religion, taxes, ones "rights" to hurt/impact others), a demographic that is unable to see through their lies. TRAILER parks LOVE them ... Republicans these days are like the lottery, EVENTUALLY you'll hit the number. Yeah, if you're KEN LAY (who is STILL walking the streets)
Interestingly, 50 years ago the Democrats were the party of bigots and Republicans the party of snobs, but now it is the other way around. The fact that so many vote for either based on being bigots or snobs is one reason that they can rip us off so much.
AMEN! Oh, if only there was a party that didn't believe in UFO's (Golisano, Jesse Ventura) ... OH if only there was a VIABLE third party. The other two would be more honest. MAYBE. Otherwise, ELVIS would be president. Show ME *any* porker who has some Elvis in them, and I'd pull da lever... :)
Let's create a new third party, the Railfan Party. Our Platform (Express, of course) will be based on plowing under every roadway in the country and building railways instead. There will be unlimited access to and photography of abandoned lines. Instead of Treason, we'll have NIMBYISM as the worst crime one could committ.
Let's create a new third party, the Railfan Party. Our Platform (Express, of course) will be based on plowing under every roadway in the country and building railways instead. There will be unlimited access to and photography of abandoned lines. Instead of Treason, we'll have NIMBYISM as the worst crime one could committ.
And EVERY train must have a railfan window.
Installation of grade timers will be a crime punished by long prison terms.
Heh. Oh great, FOAMERS on my lawn every November DEMANDING Pullman sleepers. :)
And here's the primary nominating vote for the party's candidates:
John Q-TrainDashSaalamallah
Watch out, I'd take our system over that of Europe's any day.
Aside from Cretien, I'd opt to be a CANADIEN *any day* ... a nation of such self-respect, liberty and such fairness ... if it wasn't for Fidel, we'd be boycotting THEM! :)
I have cousins in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. Pompous asses - all. Nationalism is great but they seem to look at themselves through the wrong end of the telescope and see themselves as much bigger than they really are. They are actually a 3rd world country, out of place in the new world - (Sorry Peter)
Well, they do still tend to think of themselves as part of the "Great British Empire", or at least my wife's relatives do (she's from Michigan, but half of her family is on the Ontario side of the border). But I don't think it's quite as bad as you paint it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No - I suppose some of it's that old juvenile cousinly rivalry. Yet, if it weren't for US industry north of the border, farming and Bombardier (hehehe) what have they got?
EVERY Canadian citizen has access to health care!
hahahaha - yeah, I know. My aunt goes back to Montreal for the routine stuff but whan it's serious she opts for US medical treatment.
EVERY Canadian citizen has access to health care!
Universal access to medical care is destroying New York.
Come off it Piggo. It would be nice if all people were insured but bashing the US Health Care system by implication is way off the charts. Our system is the best in the world when all things are considered. Hell, I've heard in some countries where they have universal health care they have waiting lists of up to three months, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Canada falls into that unenviable circle.
Somebody else must be paying YOUR insurance. Mine costs $500 a MONTH, and any time I go to the doctor, it's a runaround and no treatment for you. Could you pass that funky cigarette over thisaway? :)
I don't have a joint in my hand Selkirk and if I did I wouldn't know what to do with it. No, I pay for my own insurance and the district I worked for pays the other half until I'm 65 when I get Medicare and anything else I can get on my own.
My situation has been great up to know. In August of 2000 I had something that was making me weak and very lightheaded and I took every test imaginable. The doctors and nurses at Kaiser were great and by October whatever the hell I had went away====and I hope for good. I still don't know what the hell it was but I'm indebted for the help I got. It might not be as great when I go in for help next time, you never know, but up to now I've been very lucky with the medical treatment I've gotten.
Dang ... well I know the libs out your way are planning to put pot in every chicken, so just hang in there. :)
Out here, the insurance is completely out of hand so the Paturkey is able to give it to the unionmeisters for an endorsement. It's outrageous out here ...
>>> The doctors and nurses at Kaiser were great and by October whatever the hell I had went away====and I hope for good. I still don't know what the hell it was but I'm indebted for the help I got. <<<
Hardly a success story for the health care system. It sounds to me like you could have gotten the same result with acupuncture, or a guy in a mask dancing in the room and shaking rattles. It never ceases to amaze me how little the medical profession knows, and how many times medical treatment cures a condition in two weeks which would have gone away on its own in fourteen days. (Sometimes of course, the hard part is keeping the patient alive for fourteen days so the condition can go away.)
Then too, your endorsement of the health care system reminds me of the time in the ‘70s when my little old blue haired mother told me she couldn't understand why there were complaints about police brutality. All the policemen she had ever spoken to were very polite to her.
Tom
The point is Tom is that they gave a damn for what was bothering me. They could have shined me on because they had a hell of a lot more patients than me, but they all were caring. That was my take. Psychologically it helped to know that they were at it, and besides a virus, if that's what it was, is hard to detect. I would give a thousand dollars if I knew what it was that completely unnerved me.
>>> I would give a thousand dollars if I knew what it was that completely unnerved me. <<<
And you are well off enough to be able to give that thousand dollars. Those for whom the health care system has failed are the working poor who are not offered health insurance on their jobs, do not qualify for Medical and cannot afford to pay for either medical insurance or medical care until the situation becomes critical.
Tom
Canada is not 3rd world in any sence. In fact it is very much the utopia that people make it out to be. However, this is not via any actions of the Canadians. Their country is so large and their population is so low that there are more than enough natural resources to go around. That and living next to the richest country on earth helps too.
To tell you the truth, everytime I've gone over the bridge in Niagara Falls I've felt like I just went to another state. It doesn't seem like a foreign country at all. Same Malls, stores, and fast food places. However, I must admit crossing the border into Quebec (Province, not City) from either the Northway in NY or I-89 in Vermont definitely seems like going to another country. I guess its the language.
Well both times when I have gone there the country has been very desaturated, no bright colours. Everything is also very open and very clean. Roads are incredibly wide with wide grass margins. Building are all spread out and very low to the ground, etc. Its like you in some sort of bizzaro world, the same but...different and with French. Its sort of like Europe Lite.
Third world in the sense that they have no real industry of their own.
From what I have heard from my Canadian friend, they basically elect a dictatorship every 5 years. Unlike our system, there is very little "local" influance in Canadian politics and there is no seperation from the Prime Minister and the Legislature. As the PM is head of his party, and his party has a majority in the Parliment, when he wants something the Parliment rubber stamps it. If any MP dosen't go along w/ his party the party leader (PM) can kick him out of the party.
The Parlimentary system is evil because you don't vote for people, but for parties.
Well, Jersey, I'm beginning to regain my faith in you. Good post.
Yeah, but there's still something to be said for voting for a PARTY than voting for which corporation gets to loot the treasury. :)
Interestingly, 50 years ago the Democrats were the party of bigots...
Harry Truman integrated the armed forces more than 50 years ago.
Yes Truman did do that and to me his rating should be upped from near-great to great, but remember the Southern Democrats? They were a monopoly in the South back then and pro-civil rights they were not. In fact, the Republican Party was the party of Union, Emancipation and Civil Rights until the mid-20th Century when many of our leaders lost their way. It aches me no end when I think that the former party who did everything to prevent Blacks from doing anything for over a century now commands close to 90% of their alliegance.
I fully agree with that position. For many years I was a conservative Republican, one key issue that I had "learned" from my father (a proud right winger) was that labor unions were, as a whole, bad for business, protected incompetent workers and held up employers for unjustified raises and work rules. As I worked for a large industrial utility (one with a good reputation on the whole for it treatment of the work force), I saw just how important the union was to protect the workers from unjust disicpline and to win needed benefits and pay increases. As I saw one of the main tenets of my political beliefs discredited, I began to look at many other issues that often divide Democrates from Republicans. I found that when I looked at the issues, I usually agreed with the Democratic side. In recent years, I find it very distressing that Bush and the Republicans pushing tax cuts that only benefit the very wealth. I really haven't found the few extra dollars in my pay check from the Bush tax cuts to have changed my life much, but then I'm a middle class working man. If I made millions a year, the tax cuts would have been enormous. And the push to repeal the estate tax drives my nuts. The fact is that the government needs revenue, that must come through taxation. I really don't think that if you inherit more than $600,000 (I think it is now one million), it is wrong to tax a portion of it. The thing to keep in mind is that the first $600,000 to one million is tax exempt (much more between a husband and wife). Moderate to simply large (large as compared to emormous) estates are not taxed at all now, only very large estates are taxed! The bottom line is if you are inheriting it, YOU DID NOT EARN IT. I really don't buy into the thought that the money was already taxed once. Yea, but the person inheriting the money didn't pay tax on it. I get a paycheck every other week, I pay tax on it, but my employer has already been taxed on the profits from its business, so I can use the same arguement againt the inheritance tax to say I should not have to pay personal income tax.
The only reason anyone votes for them is because they pander to the concerns of the stupid/un-educated (religion, taxes, ones "rights" to hurt/impact others), a demographic that is unable to see through their lies.
Mike, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were speaking about the traditional minority support for the democrats.
I assume that by "Democratic Process" you mean "to the highest bidder".
Bankroll Bush and his Bussiness Buddies are in the process of perpetuating the largest single wealth transfer in this nation's history and are using the cover of a war to get away scot free. While this would make for a wonderful Hollywood hiest film, it sort of sucks in real life.
Don't you see what sort of government we are headed to? A Christian Fundamentalist Theoracry combined with Laissez Faire bussiness and environmental practices. That's worse than the Taliban.
Nope .. .at least the TALIBAN were compeltely up front about WHO was administering the beatings ...
Mike - I'n hindsight, the US supreme Court made a great decision. How do you suppose we've fared after 9/11 had Al (Made by Mattle) Gore been annointed. Despite your feelings, that's not the point. I find the Jersey democratic organization treated the NJ voters very cynically when they found that their candidate could not win, they pulled him down off the stage and sent in the stand-in, cobwebs and all.
I suppose in NJ you can get away with that sort of S#!t. I'm sure the NY democratic party would've love to try that here. I'm sure they wouldn't give a damn about the party loyalistas who only vote and send in their $5.00s. I'm sure they are more afraid of Sharpton and Jackson and their voices of the masses. In the meantime - the NY demcratic machine has already cut its losses and is withholding any further $upport for McCall.
What's worse is that the buzz has it that (assuming he's elected) Lautenberg won't serve, allowing McGreevey to appoint someone to serve two years and then have the incumbency advantage at a special election in 2004. So everyone on all sides gets screwed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
("How do you suppose we've fared after 9/11 had Al
(Made by Mattle) Gore been annointed. Despite your feelings, that's not the point.")
It's hard to say, but there is a real chance IMO it would have never happened. Despite a willingness to continue the Mideast negotiations begun by President Clinton expressed by Colin Powell back before he was appointed, bush decided to drop it. When you consider that the primary argument of the mideastern peoples is the US backing of Israel, the talks, providing a chance for a resolution, served to diffuse the passions surrounding the issue. Once they were abandoned, however, the terrorist groups felt no need for any restraint.
Except that we know that the plan for 9/11 was initiated long before President Bush was elected. Under the lax immigration policies of the clintonistas, these terrorists commuted back and forth for years. They received training in the US while consulting with the high command in Afghanistan, Iraq and even germany. I think that had al gore been in power - instead of hearing patriotic chorus's of "Let's roll" we'd have a president running in circles on the Whitehouse lawn yelling about the sky falling....
The idea and pursuit of training necessary to hijack planes and fly them into skyscrapers, yes.
Implementation and the intended targets were decided on in March of 2001. That's straight off the Binladen tapes from Aljazeera as seen on CNN.
That's not a particularly strong argument. The idea was born long before Bush was elected. Are you now going to tell me that the a$$hole$ might not have attacked if Gore were elected? That's pure snakeoil. They hate the US. They hate our way of life. They would have attacked regardless of who was in office. Otherwise, how do you explain the three major terrorist attacks during the Clinton Administration? Besides since when can you believe anything those camel jockeys say.
9/11 might not have happened if Gore was President for one very simple reason.....his people would have taken seriously the available intelligence, as well as the intelligence records handed over by the Clinton administration. (see Time magazine, the issue date isn't handy, but I'm sure you could easily find a copy at you local library)
There *were* plenty of signs, anyone who acknowledged Alqueda's potential threat (don't forget, Pres. Clinton *almost* got Binladen during the bombing run of 8/8/99) would have seen something was up. Shame the bush people didn't want to hear of anything done by the former President. A sadly childish approach taken on their part to domestic and world affairs has a lot to do with the state we find the world in now. (i.e. the global economy, Korea, middle east)
Binladen is still at large...
Enough...this has wandered *way* off topic.
Clinton was told about where Bin Laden was and did nothing about it. Get your facts straight. If Gore had been elected his party would have everything to prevent any action at all. We'd try to sanction them to death and try to create a dialogue with terrorists. That's how liberal Dems work because they are abhorred with the prospect that using force sometimes had its merits. Remember Carter? Remember Reagan, too. He took on the Soviet Union and brought it down. Read the book "Reagan's War." The former Soviet leadership all state that he alone was responsible for their pathetic system going down in flames. To get this back on topic, get my Sea Beach back on the bridge, express, and to Coney Island.
Next stop on Fred's train----20th Avenue.
>>>The idea was born long before Bush was elected. <<<
HAHA....elected? THAT'S verrrry debatable.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's to debate? He won fair and square, 5 to 4.
He *was* elected ... 5 to 4 by a court carefully chosen not to legislate from the bench. On the morning of September 11, 2001, just a half hour prior to the sad events downtown, it was officially determined that Gore had won Florida, but this story got pushed aside by more significant events. Hail to the Chief, Resident Bush.
They do not hate our "way of life". They hate our Jews and our Support for Jews. We have a region where a vast majority of the population is extremely poor and religious extremism is the only education available to them and the only hope they have for something better. In ANY situation where alternatives to religious education and religious dogma are non-existant you will get this type of shit. Jewish Orthodox, Christian Evangelical, Islamic Fundamentalist, Catholic, its all the same. "Western" civilization was fortunate enough to get this all out of our system about 400 years ago during the Reformation when Christian sects were in a race to see who could produce the most maryters and kill the most infadels. Sound familliar? The only differance was that they didn't have modern high explosives availble to them (although it didn't stop them from trying to blow up the Scottish Parliment anyway).
re how President Gore would have reacted to 9/11
It's hard to say, but there is a real chance IMO it would have never happened. Despite a willingness to continue the Mideast negotiations begun by President Clinton expressed by Colin Powell back before he was appointed, bush decided to drop it. When you consider that the primary argument of the mideastern peoples is the US backing of Israel, the talks, providing a chance for a resolution, served to diffuse the passions surrounding the issue. Once they were abandoned, however, the terrorist groups felt no need for any restraint.
The terrorist attacks had next to nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Hardly anyone in the Arab/Muslim world actually cares about the Palestinians. They may give lip service to their plight, but that's about it - notably, the wealthy Gulf oil countries provide little if any financial support for the increasingly impoverished Palestinians.
What lay behind the terrorist attacks was a much more basic conflict between fundamentalist Islam and the West (the "West," in this context, includes the more moderate Islamic countries too). The attacks would have occurred even if there had been peace and harmony between Israel and the Palestinians.
Frankly I was rooting Torricelli. I really wanted him to shake off all those inditments and then go on to win the Senate. Back in 1996 he came out on top of what was a really nasty campaign and I respected him for that. Anyway, I don't care if the party runs a ground hog for office as long as it can win and keep control of the Senate for the democrats. In this day and age National issues are far more important bringing pork home for the state so the indivudual who actually goes to Washington is immeterial as long as they resist the forces of evil.
>>> National issues are far more important bringing pork home for the state so the indivudual who actually goes to Washington is immeterial as long as they resist the forces of evil. <<<
Are you getting schizoid Mike? You just posted in another post that a problem with Canada was that they voted for the party, not the individual.
Tom
You are assuming a double implication on my part. I have no problem being able to vote for a party as long as you have the option not to if the need presents itself. The tools exists for all of our representitives to be held locally accountable. Remember that one person who voted against some post 9/11 military action. Well that was the will of her district. Currently I have no problems with my party's line, but if I did I, and others sharing my viewpoint would be able to say something about it.
Well said. I plan on voting for Gray Davis this Tuesday for Governor of California even though I haven't voted for a Democrat since 1986. I can't stand Bill Simon, warned my fellow Republican Club members of Arcadia, Calif, that this was a ignorant reactionary who would go nowhere. Many didn't listen to me and now they are going to pay for it. It might bring down the whole GOP ticket out here even though we have three good candidates for lower offices. If they had voted as I did for former LA Mayor Dick Reardon we would be celebrating Tuesday evening. As it is we won;t and I will be rooting for Davis to win.
Gray Davis really got hammered by a lot of crap that was beyond his control (ie the energy "crisis" that turned out to just be out and out fraud). I am glad he has been given an oppurtunity to redeem himself.
>>> Gray Davis really got hammered by a lot of crap that was beyond his control (ie the energy "crisis" that turned out to just be out and out fraud). I am glad he has been given an oppurtunity to redeem himself. <<<
Maybe you are too far away to see the situation clearly, but Davis was hammered for his handling of the energy crisis. He did nothing before it arose to insure power for the state in spite of many warnings of how use was exceeding capacity, and then when the market was manipulated by the energy companies, he signed long term contracts at top of the market prices, in spite of advice that the high prices could not last (and spot prices have never again gone as high as the long term contracts he signed). He came off looking like a rube that could be fooled by a three card monte game.
As far as an opportunity to redeem himself is concerned, he made his own opportunity by spending millions in the Republican primary to defeat Dick Riordan, so he could face a weaker opponent in the general election. Davis has no reputation for leadership but is best known as a prodigious fund raiser who does not forget those (big agriculture, polluting industries, etc.) who contribute.
Check this San Francisco Bay area transcript or this more in depth San Francisco Chronicle biography.
Tom
Mike, you'd really accept a corrupt - criminal in office for the sake of a democratically controlled senate. Are you ethically challanged?
In terms of ethics the Republicans are much worse than the Democrats. However, since they control the big lobbying bucks they have been able to keep their antics "legal". Since the set of all Democrats have substancially less net worth than the set of all Republicans, the Democrats have to sometimes resort to alternative methods to even the playing field. I won't feel a need to be outraged until some real campaign fimance reform is passed.
In terms of ethics? I guess you have forgotten Bill Clinton, the most morally corrupt President in US History. Ever heard of Koreagate, Tidal Basin, etc? Your boys have their share of ethics problems and don't try and deny it.
What do you mean? He lied about getting oral service from some employee. So what? What would you do? Tell the truth? A large segment of the population has done and is continuing to do the exact same things he did, probably even worse. We've had presidents before who were full blown alcoholists and who had full time mistresses. So Clinton got a few blow jobs.
This country is full of moral hypocrites and I am sick of it. Republicans have the gaul to promate a tax cut aimed at the top %5 and then tell the public that it will belifit everyone or structure drug laws that target minority groups for inproportionate prison terms in an attempt to disenfranchise their paticiular demographic, and then go and try to destroy someone else because they weren't forthright with intimate details regarding their private lives.
I personally thought that it was great that Clinton was getting it on in the oval office. More power too him!
Actually, it struck me more as plain old sour grapes. I mean who would want to blow Jesse Helms? Bunch of losers who couldn't get any because of their strong anti-woman political bent. No WONDER they were honked at Willie. He was doing it to some intern instead of doing it to America. :)
He did great moral harm to many of America's young and I know that factually from what I heard from some of my students. He did it so it was ok. Bull@##$%. As those friends of mine on Subtalk who have met me know that I have a certain charm with women but I never carry it to extremes. My wife is the only woman I want and that's the way it is with my friends as well.
Kenny Starr was brought in to find criminal wrongdoing in a real estate deal gone wrong. At the end, all he could find was Bubba's Taxophone getting played by an intern. So I'd ask WHO was it that did that harm, consistently drumming on an unimportant event when the supposed criminal wrongdoing came up empty-handed? America really could have done without the soap opera, but it's all the GOP could come up with and they played it day in and day out, having America spend better than a year the techniques of oral sex. So WHO was it that harmed the kiddies, giving the media material to repeat day after day to the kindergartners watching the news?
Kennedy did Marilyn Monroe ... home run, I might add. So let's put this in perspective. George Bush had a longtime mistress in the State Department. Ronald Reagan carried on for years, both as Governor and President, with a fetching ex-Nazi from Austria. Lyndon Johnson used to screw women on his desk in the Oval Office, never mind a side room (Harding preferred White House closets). After LBJ was caught once by Lady Bird, he had an alarm system installed so he'd know whenever she left the living quarters. Both Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt had their longtime extramarital partners, as did Ike. And never mind JFK. Hell, even Nixon was rumored to have made some sort of whoopee with a China lobbyist.
So let's move along now, Bubba's done. :)
>>> My wife is the only woman I want and that's the way it is with my friends as well <<<
Better keep a close eye on those friends. :-)
Tom
What would I do? I would remain true to my wife, that's what. A blow job in the oval office? You say that's ok. Bullshit. It is not ok. Reagan thought so much about the place he did his work in that he never once took off his jacket in there and your boy is getting hummers and you say it's ok. He also lied under oath. That's ok, too, I suppose. You never met me in person but I can tell you something. You ever got to know me and lied to me I would fry your Goddamn ears like you never heard before and would never talk to you again. There are a few of us who think morals and honesty count for something.
There are a few of us who think morals and honesty count for something.
Morality is one of the biggest evils of society.
NO ONE should have the right to tell anyone else how to act, unless said actions infringe on the rights of another.
Bill Clinton's blow jobs affected no one but himself, Ms. Lewinsky, a consenting adult and his wife. So the only person on Earth who had any right to pursue an investigation and CIVIL (not criminal) action against Bill Clinton was Hillary, she chose not too. Either they worked out their problems or their marriage was always a marriage of utility and remains a marriage of utility and it continues to suit them.
Bill Clinton needed a wife to be seen as pro-"family values" (euphemism for oppression of women by husbands and children by parents), Hillary Rodham needed a husband to control behind the scenes and rise to prominence, thanks to conservative views on women's role in society 25 years ago.
What are your thoughts on Rudys infidelities?
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee: What do I think of Rudy's infidelities? As a supporter of Rudy and a Republican it makes no difference that I like the man. His conduct was horseshit. I didn't think it proper that his wife Donna aired their dirty linen in public, but he should have kept his zipper closed. When you walk down that aisle you have pledged that you have eyes for no others. THAT IS SET IN STONE as far as I'm concerned and party affilitation makes no difference whatsoever. I hope my answer lets you know my take on it.
The marriage cerimony is mostly Mideival contractual law that was designed to facilitate the transfer of property from one generation to the next and to prevent voilence and bloodshed amoung rival human males. Since we no longer need these services, the institution of periment, monogomus marriage is largely irrelevent. A human male's primary functions are to eat, protect the "self" and to have sex wit as many females as possibly to propigate the species. I cannot find fault with someone who meerly does what is natural when the oppurtunity presents itself.
Also, if you go back to the Jews there was never any problem with having multiple wives.
Stick that in your ditty bag Jersey because when it comes to the meaning of word fidelity you are so full of barf that you make no sense at all. From your take I get the impression the human race is a bunch of primitive types with only our carnal instincts to serve us. I have a much higher feeling about the qualities of the human race than you do. However, I like this exchange because you at least have an opinion. I to take it, though, that you aren't married. Take my advice, stay that way for your own sake.
Shocking though it sounds, I'm actually with Fred on this! Men are not just walking libidos. My number one drive now is the best interests of my 4-month old daughter, and my number one desire is to get home to her and my wife. Yes, we males are capable of love too.
Marriage and family life have served me well. But they are not for everybody.
---Andrew
Thanks Andy, I was beginning to think that I was a hallow voice in the wilderness. Maybe Sour Grapes Jersey will pay more attention to you than he did to me, and give your little girl a big hug for me. There is nothing like a little girl.
Remember this: A son is a son until he takes a wife but daughter is
a daughter for all of her life.
My number one drive now is the best interests of my 4-month old daughter
That doesn't really make your point that men aren't walking libidos, since it just continues your goal (AND EVERYONE ELSE'S!) of having your DNA propogate itself.
Primitive species can have thousands of offspring and they're pretty much born with everything they'll ever need to survive and reproduce. Humans need to be "programmed" if you will.
But there always was a problem of wives having multiple husbands. That is blatantly unfair, of course.
:0)
I understand that there are some people there who believe that man has a higher purpose on Earth. I am not one of them.
The primary function of any organism is to reproduce, everything else is only there to make reproduction more efficient. Since evolution favors organisms that have a better time reproducing, any trait makes reproduction better will survive. All of the others will die out.
I do however take incident with your comment that human males must have sex with as many females as possible. Human infants are the most helpless of all animal infants because most human things are learned and not inborn, which is what gives humans the potential that they have. A man can have 100 children, but what good will that do? The purpose of the organism is to not only have offspring, but to guarantee that the offspring will have offspring and with good mates. A child is not going to be successful and is not going to be able to attract genetically superior mates when the time comes if he or she is not nurtured properly.
A lot of human functions can be traced not just to an organism's need to reproduce, but to an advanced organism's need to HINDER reproduction.
They're not any different, Giuliani didn't do anything wrong.
Both Clinton's and Giuliani's affairs were tacky and somewhat bizzare in their own ways. But Giuliani took it to another level when he actually paraded his mistress Judy Nathan all over the place, putting his family in an awkward situation. At least Clinton had the decency to be embarrassed about it.
One thing both men have in common is that both are big 'ol hams, addicted to the spotlight to the point where they'll just embarass the hell out of themsleves if it means they get the media attention. It is a sure sign that Clinton should be right at home here in New York.
:-) Andrew
Thank God for that. Just keep him and his bag lady wife Hillary the hell out of California.
"There are a few of us who think morals and honesty count for something. "
They do count for something, but not all of us interpret that the way you do.
Bill Clinton's lying about his affair was stupid, and the attention focused on it detracted from his bility to get things done, it's true. But the guy was a very capable President and the Clinton Administration did a lot of pretty good things - including knowing when NOT to interfere with something, a skill Ronald Reagan was not as good at.
Look, if hypothetically Bill Clinton had admitted his affair right away, and Hilary had said, "yeah, I knew about it. Hell, I watched it happen once or twice and enjoyed it," what then? I would have been inclined to say to the critics, "Get over it -we need to move on to other business."
Read up on J. Edgar Hoover sometime. There was a time he was considered a saint...
Yeah, but Hoover was a darling of the right, therefore the rules do not apply to him or Giuliani, either
Your point is taken.
"Darling" is right ... http://hnn.us/articles/814.html
What IS it about these right-wingers? DO check it out, Hoover LOVED black teddies and wearing evening gowns.
"What would you do? Tell the truth?"
No mike. I'd have nothing to tell my wife of more than 30 years. Perhaps fidelity is more of a republican thing. Then again - not seeing anything wrong speaks volumes about your ethics.
"Perhaps fidelity is more of a republican thing."
You can dream about it that way, but the Republicans know in their hearts it's not true..
For the most part, YES IT IS!!!!!!
Remember Newt, the Republican avitar? He dumped his wife for a cute yongue hottie too.
I definitly classify cheating on one's spouce as "Not Cool" and a very mean and hurtful thing to do. However I leave it at that and I make not other value judgements about someone's character. If you find that you seriously dislike your life partner it is stupid to continue the farce. It only leads to depression and domestic violence. It is the stupid institution of "fedility" that causes people to not be frank with their spouses in regard to their feelings. They feel bound to keep the marriage going while at the same time they feel the strong need for some sort of basic happiness. The presence of fedelity is what leads to cheating, not the other way round.
Let me comment on your last post. I'm neutral. You make some good points, though.
Tell that to Newt Gingrich, who left his wife the moment she came down with Cancer.
Pointing fingers accross the aisle is futile when it comes to marital fidelity. Both parties have cheating hearts all over the place!
--Andrew
Sea Beach Fred writes:In terms of ethics? I guess you have forgotten Bill Clinton, the most morally corrupt President in US History. Ever heard of Koreagate, Tidal Basin, etc? Your boys have their share of ethics problems and don't try and deny it.
Fred: I know that I excoriated you and some of the boys last week for turning this into a political bs board but I really must take you to task for these recent posts. You seem to have forgotten "CREDIT MOBILER"and "TEAPOT DOME." These are scandals that we all have read about in our history books which took place during Republican administrations. How many lives were ruined by the baseless accusations of the Republican Senator Joe McCarthy and his witchhunt for Communists? What about the bigest one of all WATERGATE? Where a Republican president used the power of the Oval Office to obstruct the administration of justice.
Morality is about more than sexual behavior. It implies a code of conduct consistent with a set of principles. What Bill Clinton did was wrong and no one says it was right. What I find difficult to understand is that the man leading the House Managers at the impeachment hearing (Henry Hyde-Republican) was himself an admitted adulterer. (Remember his "youthful affair" at the tender age of forty). And what about the chosen replacement for Newt Gingerich as Speaker of the House, Bob Livingstone, another Republican who liked to wander?
Immorality is about sexual infidelity, but is is also about lying, cheating, stealing and betraying the public trust.
A learned Jewish Rabbi put it more succintly: "Let the one amongst you who is without sin cast the first stone."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Heh. How do you explain Vice President ... Dick then? :)
Cheney: 2 CONVICTIONS, Drunk driving
Halliburton
So what's ANOTHER crook in the mix?
Shrub too
They're BOTH CONVICTS. Whoops.
Our President is no Boy Scout and it's been a long time since we've actually had one in the White House. The uniqueness of this incident is not the criminal activity pre-election but is the post-election corruption that was heading for almost certain prosecution. Now, you can say innocent until proven guilty and I'd have no problem with that. What I find scandleous is that faced with certain defeat at the polls, and the possible consequential loss of control of the senate, the dems pulled the plug on this loser and trotted out some worn out re-tread who's not sure what day it is. Now given the seeming IQ of the Jersey voter, he may actually win the election. I have little doubt, however, that after a respectable period, Mr. Lousenburg will have some 'serious health problems' and will be replaced by another loyal bundist.
That may well be and I'll grant you that. But when I hear people trying to convince me that Shrub is as pure as the driven snow (an inch and a half so far up here) that gets my rump in the air. Wouldn't it be mahvellous though if somehow this country could get past the kind of political practices that ensures a lower common denominator is attracted to politics than Howard Stern's demographic? :)
Nobody who DESERVES to govern would ever be stupid enough to run for office, so what we end up with in ALL these elections are the petty thieves that can't find gainful employment elsewhere. Damned shame.
How would you like it if I ran for office? Would I fall into that category, or would you tell me to go for it?
It would CERTAINLY be a learning experience. Just so's ya know, I got a chance to see the game from the INSIDE when I ran for Mayor of New Paltz, NY as a REPUBLICAN. :)
So yeah, go for it. Heh. "I am not a crook." I lost. ;)
Sorry about that. I never like a Republican losing to a Democrat, unless it is the Governor's race here in California where I'm going to cast my first vote for a Dem in 16 years tomorrow.
Nah, I wasn't ... the Mayor's position paid $3,000 a year as a "part time 60 hour a week job." I had to PAY $3,000 to the local committeeperson to be put up for the job. But as they explained it to me, that $3,000 was just the salary, I'd also get $3,000 from the water department fund, another $4,000 from the sewer fund, another $6,000 from the volunteer fire department, and the committee wanted me to pay THAT to them up front also. QUITE a learning experience it was.
You'll be pleased to know that the FROG party candidate won. :)
At least it wasn't the Democrats
The dems (as usual) forgot to PUT UP a candidate. That's why the frogs won. :)
Poor Bill Simon
You are the only Republican I'd vote for.
I'd be willing to vote for him if he shows up at my door with a breaded fried rat on a stick. I'm funny that way. I only vote for those who show up at MY house. You get spoiled living upstate. If the mayor won't buy you a beer, you get a new mayor. :)
Thanks John. If I do I hope there are enough Democrats and Independents who feel the way you do.
It tells the state of the Dems when they to trot out some old flabby retreads in order to hold down the fort, but I feel the same way about the Jersey voter as you do. When I went to my aunt and uncle's 50th Wedding Anniversary Party in August (In Clinton, if you can believe that without heaving), I made some snide remarks about Corzine and how he pulled one on the voters in that state. They didn't even argue with me on that. So there are a few Jerseyites who either understand that or don't answer because they haven't got a clue on anything.
hahahahah - interesting slant !!!!
Then again - we are the 500 Lb. gorilla - aren't we?
The Mouse That Roared - 2002 version.
Copied and saved - a classic.
Mike,
You summed it ALL up in three sentences. Excellent observation. It is truly amazing how the Bushies simply love big business. Yes, big business provides jobs and is vital to the country, but they need to be watched! If Enron, WorldCom and Global Crossing didn't open people's eyes, I don't know what will. Corporations are in business to make all the money they can. Remember not that long ago when the auto industry was crying about pollution controls, air bags and fuel economy goals! What do you think our enviroment would be like today if not for gov't mandated emissions standards! The fact we have much cleaner air and water today is because the government stood up to the auto makers and said these things were needed. You know no company would have instituted these things on their own!
You have a point but get in your head that your boys are not clean shirts by any means. Ever heard of Corzine, Kerrey, Cantwell, Kohl and Kennedy? Multi millionaires all of them and, wow can you believe it, all are of your political persuasion and with the exception of Kennedy all have their hands in the pockets of the rich either in actuality or in sympathy. Kohl, for instance, is the inept owner of the Milwaukee Bucks who regularly stiffs his players in contract negotiations and Cantwell was run out of office in '94 for her uselessness until she bought a senate seat six years later.
The irony is that in the long run things like environmental protection, increased efficiency and letting more and more people become part of the economic process IS BETTER FOR BUSSINESS than without. The best example is that of Henry Ford. He paid his workers high wages and in turn his workers were able to afford the products that Ford made thus creating more overall wealth than has he paid them standard wages.
Wealth is not like a pie. There is no set amount of wealth that we all have to fight over. When human beings work and engage in productive activities wealth is created. This is why recessions are 90% psychological. Anyway, the problem is that there exist all too frequently oppurtunities for an indivudual to increase their wealth at the cost of a greater amount of wealth of those around him. Basically, by some CEO going out and increasing his profits by x, he can all too easily decrease the group wealth by x + y.
The Republicans are the party of greed who seek to increase the wealth of a privilaged few at the expense of the many (odd that they used to be the party of inclusion instead of exclusion). What makes this truely revolting is that it isn't even a one to one transfer (aka Pareto efficient, the most basic measure of efficiency).
Things are getting pretty desperate these days. I saw an interesting news magizine type of show on PBS where the guy (Bill Moyer maybe) said that in the class struggle of rich vs poor the rich have won because they have simply outspent the poor. In a system where elections are decided on by who has the most $ to campaign, those with capital resources will always be able to win, as once in office they will use the system to perpetuiate their wealth to then win the next election.
There is the school of thought that if the vast citizenry of our country is so STUPID as to fall for these lies and TV ads then we should get what we deserve. I am of half a mind to just sit back and enjoy the long ride down hill with a stockpile of gasoline and ammunition in my basement.
Quick example. Republicans have made a popular issue of repealing the "death" tax. A tax that some 75%+ of all Americans will never have to pay. Yet by simply calling it the "death" tax instead of estate tax they have tricked the public into thinking that everyone has to pay it. Now those with capital resporces will be able to use the power of compound interest to not only never have to work again, but will at the same time be able to exponentionally outpace the wealth of those hardworking stiffs that come after them.
BTW, if anyone ever comes to you and says something like "why should some people pay a higher % of taxes than others if we all get the same services" ask them this:
"Who has more to loose if China invaded and took over our country today? Some poor guy living in public housing or some rish guy in a mansion up in West Chester? The Chineese would go right to West Chester, shoot the rich guy in the head and take his stuff. The poor guy would probably get free health care."
or:
"If something like 75% of the population is near of below the poverty line tell me one good reason why it would not be in their best interest to pick up pointed sticks, beat the useless gentry to death and take their stuff? Think of their tax burden as a bribe so that the rest of the population won't kill them in a revolution."
"Lousenburg"???
By any chance are you fan of Michael Savage's "Savage Nation"? I have heard him a few time (talk about a gas bag, if you listen to him for a few hours, he will claim to have doctorate's in at least three seperate fields) and he seems to be the one who coined that phrase.
Also, the Forrester commercial where the announcer asks "Why did Frank Lautenberg team up with Robert Torreclli to try and steal the Senate race?" is not only laughable but points up the fact that Forrester's entire campainge theme was "I'm not Torrecelli!" First, Torrecelli and Lautenberg had an intense rivalry (so much so that even after Lautenberg agreed to help his party by running for the seat on such short notice, Torrecelli has turned over very little of his campainge funds (which I believe he could have turned over the entire amount, it's not he will be running for office in the future. Maybe he's saving it for commisary money in the big house). If Lautenberg had "teamed up with Torreclli" you would think Torecelli would have given him as much financial support as possible.
Another statement in that commericial is so absurd it truly makes me shake my head in amazement. The ad claims that Lautenberg voted againt the death penalty for terrorists, making us less safe from those terrorists. Huh??!?!? First, the jihadist are looking to die for the cause, executing them will not do much to discourage them; and second the sniper case gives a good look at the deterent effect of the death penalty. First the killers started in Maryland, a death penalty state (ok, one with the death penalty, but one that does not impose it or carry it out often); then then moved to Virginia, a state that not only has the death penalty and imposes/carries it out frequently, but is the only jurisdiction on planet earth besides Texas that still executes juveniles. Yep, the death penalty sure detered them!
The death penalty is wrong.
Life in prison with regular torture is much better.
One word...poorly spelled. Oubliette.
Couldn't cut & paste the link so I opted to wait and read about it this AM. There was no evidence that it was either an accident due to poor judgement or a suicide. Other than the usual quips about Darwin Awards, one has to wonder about the mind-set of a person who would lay down on active railroad tracks. The fact that he was reported to be hispanic - Was he disillusioned with life in the US? Was he homesick? I can't figure it because there are better ways to go.
Odd that he chose the Oyster Bay Branch. He likely had a long, cold wait for the train.
"Odd that he chose the Oyster Bay Branch. He likely had a long, cold wait for the train."
Did he feel he needed a lot of sleep before the big event?
OK, that was a cruel comment. I apologize.
I wonder if our old friend Mr. Liquor was present. The Newsday article doesn't say, but it jsut could be. The victim was so smashed before the train hit him that he might never had even known where he was.
Betcha 3-1 when the details come out his BAC was 4.0 or higher.
Sometimes the blood alcohol level does not reflect the presence of other intoxicants that may be present - alcoholics have and will drink antifreeze (ethylene glycol), methanol (paint thinner), or anything else to get that elusive buzz. In the emergency room, we check the blood alcohol level and the difference between the measured serum osmolarity and the calculated serum osmolarity - the osmolal gap - a large gap means that our patient may have some other brands of poison on board and if action is not taken quickly, he will die.
The things that some people do to themselves, let alone to others, makes you want to scream. Guess what, folks? The antidote for ingested methanol or antifreeze is intravenous ethyl alcohol - that keeps the body đÇÚÇ turning the antifreeze into some very toxic metabolic byproducts.
Sometimes the blood alcohol level does not reflect the presence of other intoxicants that may be present - alcoholics have and will drink antifreeze (ethylene glycol), methanol (paint thinner), or anything else to get that elusive buzz. In the emergency room, we check the blood alcohol level and the difference between the measured serum osmolarity and the calculated serum osmolarity - the osmolal gap - a large gap means that our patient may have some other brands of poison on board and if action is not taken quickly, he will die.
The things that some people do to themselves, let alone to others, makes you want to scream. Guess what, folks? The antidote for ingested methanol or antifreeze is intravenous ethyl alcohol - that keeps the body from turning the antifreeze into some very toxic metabolic byproducts.
Ron, I'd watch it. Just because the thought police stopped posting on subtalk does not mean that they are not hiding in wait - avidly ready to pounce on an errant comment.
Well, it probably wasn't necessary for me to post that...
Gee, a Hispanic guy in Glen Cove? Whodda thunk it?
As for laying on the tracks, given the quality of the local Hispanic crowd (and to be fair, there are a lot of productive ones there too), in that area, I wouldn't be surprised if the was alcohol involved in this one. Or other substances.
The bridge over Glen Cove Road and that stretch between Sea Cliff and Glen Street is a popular place for tresspassing, and has been for years. I hear they get lots of close calls there.
Oddly, despite the total lack of service on the OB line, everytime i go to Sal's to get a Pizza, I inevitably get stuck at Glen Street waiting for a train. *shrug*
Excellent timing. You're the James Bond of railroads.
I recall reading about a case in Chicago some years back, in which a guy walked onto a CTA right-of-way and urinated on the third rail. Supposedly his family sued because the warning sign was ONLY in English.
Does anybody know the outcome of that case?
If the person spoke only English and his family won, Someone should send the story to Reader's Digest. re: That's Outrageous!
I did a foot tour of Paramus today. I went to Van Saun park (up Forest avenue), which is absolutely beautiful this time of year (and took photos, no trouble anywhere).
Then Bergen Mall, which isn't as bad as some have made it out to be. Even at the early hour (10:30am) the mall was reasonably busy, way more people walking around than in that ghostown Palisades mall.
Then I walked down Spring Valley ave and Rochelle ave to Garden State Plaza. The fall leaves were just so beautiful, so I took more pics (we don't get as nice foiliage on LI). It was alot of walking, but it was relaxing.
I also walked on the west side of Garden state plaza and noticed an ROW, with PSEG lines, by the Passaic st entrance. I took some photos (no trouble again)and have reviewed the photos and saw a speed limit sign on the ROW. Also saw some discarded wooden RR ties in the brush. But did a railroad ever run there? The PSEG ROW just screams that it was a former ROW, like the LIPA lines around West Hempstead.
On the subway, I had R62A's both ways on the 7 (with no railfan window). Going I left Main st at 7:30am and was sitting in the 2nd car, not too packed fortunately, though I thought I may have seen a Subtalker on there, but by then we were at GCT.
I got off at 5th ave, the corridor which didn't look that bad to begin with looks real nice with the new artwork. I waited awhile for a D, which was held again at 5th ave, and at 59st I didn't have to wait long for an R44 A train.
Going back I did the 42nd st passagway, which is still quicker than taking the B or D at 42nd/6th.
R62A again, no front window (just missed a Redbird). Pretty packed (this was around 5:30pm).
GW Bus terminal now has Muzak, the PA must like it because I've heard it at 42nd street and the former WTC.
I grew up in Bergen County (Teaneck) and spend a fair amount of time at the Bergen Mall and the Garden State Plaze. I have no memory of a rail line in the area you mention west of the GSP. I'm 43, so my recolections begin in the mid to late 60's. The NJ Transit Bergen or Mail line is about 4 mile west of there, so maybe at one time, there was some kind of connection that ran in the area you mention.
I do recall hearing that pre-WWII (at least, maybe longer ago) NJ had an extensive trolley system, that may also be part of the anwser to your inquiry.
Piggo
Was Garden State Plaza once an airport? I was walking around and I saw a sign about that an airport was once there.
GSP Airport....? Not that I know of - are you sure the sign wasn't referring to Teterboro?
GSP was once an open-air mall (before my time).
And Bergen Mall - a very interesting place that appears to have stood still in time. Often times when I have a few hours between classes at Bergen CC, I'll take the 756 over to the mall and have lunch at the Oriental Grill (a Mongolian BBQ-type place that kicks ASS!), then spend some time gawking at the clusters of string lights hanging from the ceiling - just a couple weeks ago, I found the lower level..... that place is downright freakish! It's basically a long, dimly-lit concrete-walled corridor, with a chapel at one end (yes, a chapel), a tailor, and these little pseudo-village-looking shops that aren't really stores anymore.
Paramus was farmland (celery!) before the early 1960's openings of the GSP and Bergen Mall which were both open air malls (those lower level shops in the Bergen Mall used to be a kiddyland with rides) until the indoor Paramus Park Mall opened in the mid 1970's and the other 2 malls enclosed after that. Across route 4 from the Bergen Mall where Daffy's is used to be E.J Korvettes and Across from the GSP was Alexanders Dept. Store which on the front wall had the (at that time) world's largest mural-it was in the Guiness book of records!
Oh yeah, I remember the [abandoned] Alexander's building! IINM, they razed it and moved the mural somewhere else, I forgot where.
I remember that mural from the late 60s. Is the pedestrian bridge across Rt. 4 still there?
I haven't been through that area since, oh, 1968 or thereabouts.
Yes, the pedestrian bridge is still there. I crossed it, pretty old and kind of un-nerving.
Yeah I didn't see the lower level when I went to Bergen mall, I didn't even know there was one until I looked at the mall guide that I took when I got home.
Yeah that place reminds me of the malls in the 80s, believe it or not, I kind of miss those days.
The lower level is kind of hard to find - you have to look for the escalator that is sort of mid-span on the south side of the building.
I also remember Menlo Park being a small joint before becoming the massplex that it is now.
I never been to Menlo Park yet. Is it worth a trip?
I *WORKED* at Bergen Mall, at the Shoprite (since moved), in the early 70s. I lived in Paramus for a few years in the early 80s. It is a nice town and I support their enforcement of "blue laws", after all people need time to enjoy their town for themselves.
As far as rail lines I know of none that ever were.
As another poster stated, Paramus was mostly celery farms until the early 50s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Paramus is a pretty cool place, I just wish that Rts 4 and 17 were more like large boulivards rather than highways (they'd be more pedestrian and transit friendly that way). Imagine that - if the Route 4/17 interchange was like the intersection of Richmond Av and Victory Blvd on Staten Island.... and instead of being surrounded by a sea of asphalt, Garden State Plaza would also consist of high-rise office and apartment buildings. There would also be more thru-streets surrounding the complex and a large transit center that would serve regional and local buses as well as light rail.
I guess that's why we have imaginations, cause that's the only place we're gonna see a lot of things.
But getting back to reality, I also like downtown Hackensack. It, like Bergen Mall, is another blast from the past. It hasn't [yet] undergone gentrification, but it is also not a rundown area. There are a couple of nice army/navy stores and a lot of nice places to eat.
if the Route 4/17 interchange was like the intersection of Richmond Av and Victory Blvd on Staten Island....
... traffic would be backed up heading southbound all the way back to Suffern, and northbound all the way back to Newark.
I remember the taffic jams in Ramsey at Lake Street until the last traffic light was removed in the section north of route 4 in the late 1980s.
Paramus is the only town in NJ w/o a main street. NJ became its main street when some kind of agreement was reached to allow shopiing to be built along the highway. Or so I heard.
--Mark
Ah, but if local transit was much more beefed up and heavily used, with frequent and ample bus service, light rail and rapid transit, there'd be less private auto traffic...
I think I used this example before, but I read that in a couple of instances where roads/highways were eliminated or downgraded, the traffic volume actually went down. The two examples are when the lower section of the West Side Highway was demolished after a section collapsed, and when the Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was destroyed then demolished after the 1989 earthquake.
As for a "Main St, Paramus", I guess other than Rt 4 and 17, Passaic St, Paramus Rd, and Century Rd could be considered main thoroughfares, but they're mostly residential. Passaic St has some small stores and Century Rd has some office complexes and stuff, but...
And yes, "downtown Paramus" is really Garden State Plaza!
Damn right I hate traffic lights. We have so many of them here in Nassau county. Years ago, there should have been a plan to eliminate them. Northern Blvd especially. Each light has 1/2 mile backups in each direction. And the lights are timed so you miss every one. I remember when a storm knocked out power to the lights, traffic actually moved better.
Well I actually wish Northern Blvd was more like Rt4. Yes, it is pedestrian unfriendly, but at least there are no traffic lights (and how I hate traffic lights!).
There should be more ped bridges on Rt.4 and Rt.17. I was suprised not to see one crossing Rt.17 from where BJ's is to the mall property.
Anyone have news on what happened Friday morning, around 11 ish?
I was taking an F train to college in Brooklyn, riding in the first car. Before leaving Roosevelt Av, there's an announcement that the F train would be going through the 53rd Street tunnel; next stop Queens Plaza. There's a crowd on the platform but surprisingly only little noticed.
As we approach the 36 street area we're held by red approach signals for a few minutes. Then those signals clear and the home ball is... YELLOW? Seconds after we take the diverging route, the conductor comes back on and says that we were now going through 63rd Street... passengers for Queens Plaza can take, blah, blah.
We were delayed for a total of 20 minutes, I'd say, in the whole. Approaching Rockefeller Center the train took a green ball and used the track that the B and D trains used.
I was honestly surprised we didn't skip stops to make up lost time.
I waited almost 10 minutes for an uptown B or D at 42nd street around 8am.
>>>I waited almost 10 minutes for an uptown B or D at 42nd street around 8am. <<<
That is the usual interval at that time.
Peace,
ANDEE
So that would also mean southbound B/D run every 10 minutes also, since they have to head back north. Not very often, considering it's rush hour.
This has happened ot me a few times. Get to Roosevelt, F's through 53rd, but by the time you get to 36th, QBMT has gotten permission to send you back through 63rd.
This is why when I was a conductor, I always waited to make such announcements. Worst came to worst I would have to make one at QP that the train was going 53rd and tell them how to go.
You make think that rude of me, but as many times as they told me rerouted thru 53rd they always had it fixed by 36th. Just think if I had made those announcements at Roosevelt how many people for 21st, Roose. Island and Lex/63rd would have needlessly gotten off.
Very interesting, I happened to be at Rockefeller Center at about 11 AM Friday, waiting for the legendary V train to Queens to show up. It took about 20 minutes for me to get a single V train, starting a SubTalk-style discussion among us passengers on whether the V should run through 53rd Street.
There was a V train on the southbound local track that took about 5 minutes (no exaggeration) just to completely enter the station. This was before an F train (probably your train) showed up on the B/D tracks. That V probably forced the F onto the B/D tracks.
OK! There I was yesterday arguing with my english teacher about how much bettter the New York City Subway system is then the London Underground, and then she contends about how clean her system is, and how frequent the trains are and I counter with how frequent some of lines are, the 1 zone fare, and the fact that we have express lines, and there are very few cities that have followed suit. So people I need to know from you, which is the better system London Underground of the New York City Subway System?
From an OPERATIOAL standpoint:
NYCT
Pros:
-more express service
-longer trains, more capacity
-flat fare
-frequent during rush hour, decent during other hours
-Metrocard a great fare system
Cons:
-dirtier than LU
-slow
-lots of unused infrastructure (good for railfan's point of view, but costs money to have it sitting there)
-has little chance of expansion
-has redundant lines (IND following an IRT line in the Bronx), while other areas have little service (Queens, east side)
LU
Pros
-fast service
-cleaner
-more modern operations
-destination boards with next three trains listed
-fare system is also good
Cons
-zone fare not as convienent
-tiny trains
-stations with elevator only service reduces passenger flow
-some transfer complexes are mazes and can take up to fifteen minutes to traverse (like at Bank)
-lack of emergency walkways
It seens that Londoners are more vocal about how their subway sucks in operation, although there is not a lack of complaints coming from NYers. In the end, it'll come down to peronsal taste, which includes non-operational preferences.
As a railfan, I consider LU to be my #1 favorite subway in the world, NYCT comes in at #3. I actually LIKE many of the cons I listed for both systems. London has more history behind it and is a great mix of modern operation with old infrastructure.
I'd add a few.
NYCT
Pros:
-more express service
-longer trains, more capacity
-flat fare
-frequent during rush hour, decent during other hours
-Metrocard a great fare system
-dense network of stations
-24 hour service
Cons:
-dirtier than LU (perhaps)
-slow
-lots of unused infrastructure (good for railfan's point of view, but costs money to have it sitting there)
-has little chance of expansion
-has redundant lines (IND following an IRT line in the Bronx), while other areas have little service (Queens, east side)
-poor street access (narrow stairs, different entrances for different platforms
-missing inter-line transfers
LU
Pros
-fast service
-cleaner (perhaps)
-more modern operations
-destination boards with next three trains listed
-fare system is also good
-transfers at almost all line crossings
-access to all platforms from all entrances
-two new lines built in last 30 years
Cons
-zone fare not as convienent
-tiny trains
-stations with elevator only service reduces passenger flow
-some transfer complexes are mazes and can take up to fifteen minutes to traverse (like at Bank)
-lack of emergency walkways
-long inter-station distances (so less dense station network)
-some areas (esp. South London) not well served
-no overnight service (apart from special days)
Bloody hell! I forgot the most obvious pro for NYC, the 24 hour service. LU ends at a very early 12:00, even MARTA has longer service hours than LU (service ends at 2:30am) :-)
I didn't mention the dense network pro because it seems that LU also has a dense network as well. Both cities have areas with little or no service compared to other neighborhoods.
In London, poor, predominantly black areas (like Brixton) have very little Underground service and poor prospects for getting more.
So how do the black people get aroudn in London? I thought Brixton is the end of the Victoria Line is has pretty good service (i.e. if you walk to Brixton then you can get on a train)
They use buses.
Look at the Underground map. If you're south of the Thames, there isn't much rail service.
Gents,having experienced both systems i would say that NYC comes out top.
Why...?
Well...
24 hour service, London shuts at 1am opens 5 am
air conditioned,London has NO air conditioned cars
Fare Control,London has zones and time restrictions on passes
.
oh....and you have redbirds...enough said!
Rob
oh....and you have redbirds...enough said!
Not for much longer (glub glub glub).
The rail network in South London is very very extensive. The problem is it is not shown on the Underground Map.
Simon
Swindon UK
"The rail network in South London is very very extensive. The problem is it is not shown on the Underground Map."
You're comparing apples to oranges. A poverty stricken neighborhood's residents would have difficulty using higher-priced commuter rail. The residents use buses because that is what they can afford.
The analogy here would be shutting down the A and J train services through Brooklyn and offering only LIRR service.
But in London, they have a zone fare system so using Underground or former BR would not make a difference fare wise.
It is like you can chose between LIRR and Subway and still pay the same fare.
Hey, I've been in NYC for the past 15 years. It doesn't mean one system is better than another. Just mentioning the facts here.
Wow! That's excellent.
But what about travel frequency?
That really depends on which lines, which stations, but generally the frequency is less than on the Underground. Some local stations would only get trains every 20 minutes and some lines are peak hours only.
On the other hand, many lines have frequent service and fast(express) service and trains that run through Thameslink (an North-South connection) will continue to the North of London.
Also as long you are in the valid zones, a travel card (unlimited pass) lets you can transfer freely between the different systems and the buses too.
I'm sure some systems are cleaner, some are much more modern, some have even better scenery, but when you take everything into consideration there is no other subway system like New York's. Speaking as a non-New Yorker who ridden many different subways both in the US and abroad, I can only give my opinion. But to sheer variety, in both scenery and people, as well as reputation and tradition, New York's is number one with me. I'm certain, while not speaking for others, others do feel the way I do.
It is certainly No1 for railfan enjoyment.
Simon
Swindon UK
And you forgot to mention that New York's system has the Sea Beach Line, while London's does not.....
But we do have the (real)Brighton Line.
Simon
Swindon UK
True, True.
And it's authentically slow too...
The real Brighton Line? Get real! We had the original Brighton Beach Hotel, and even pulled it further in-land to keep it from going, er, to the other side of the pond :)
--Mark
Too bad!
But I don't suppose your Brighton was established by King George the Fourth (8-) ! My hometown on the south coast of England was.....and its railway line is pretty good too.
No, we're only up to King George the Second so far, and his claim to fame is the West End line, not the Brighton line.
At leasxt Both Brightons go to the Beach, what Beach Does The Sea Beach Go too. Oops Ialmost forgot the Brighton Beach outside of melbourne Australia, which also has Trolley Services(Trams)
Bob, not to be picky, but while the Melbourne Met's Sandringham electric tram line has a Brighton Beach Station, there is no tram to Brighton Beach. Closest is East Brighton.
There used to be a "Railways Tram" that ran from St Kilda to Brighton Beach on a 1600mm (5'3") guage, but it was scrapped in 1959.
Hey Wizard of Oz, you just threw some damp water on Bob's day. Shame on you.
No he didn t, E Brighton is a 20 minute walk to Brighton, I know I did it
Ah, but where else in the world can you find the Baker Loo? :o>
The north side of the Circle is approx. to NYCT's Sea Beach, being in a cut with covered stretches. Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and District/Edgware Road lines also run on it.
wayne
The Circle, eh? I'll have to remember that when I go to London in the future. A real nice city. I have always liked it there.
GP38: By all means I should have my head shaved for that omission. Yes, no other subway system in the whole wide world has the Sea Beach Line. Only New York has it; therefore, New York by a landslide. Sorry I was so remiss in making that omission.
Yes, no other subway system in the whole wide world has the Sea Beach Line.
Sorry I was so remiss in making that omission.
LOL. Ahh, we all forgive you, but can the Sea Beach?
Oh sure, my train loves me just like I love it. You ought to see the R-32's, Slant 40's and R 68's smile when I come to town and climb on board. I make their day like they make mine. A real crazy guy am I. Right?
now you have r-40m also.
To me, the R-32s are the N, just as the R-10s are the A.
But you also can catch a Brighton Express in London
A very good reason not to go there.
That's very good for riders. Bravo!
If LIRR fares within city zones (Zones 1-3 if I am not mistaken) were the same as subway fares (let us say a flat $1.50 for now) would the increase of utilization within the city make up for the loss in fare revenue, or would it result in NYCT subway and bus riders subsidizing LIRR patrons even more than they do now?
The impact of subway fares within NYC on LIRR and MNR traffic would be small, because so few MNR and LIRR stations are within the city limits - 13 MNR and 27 LIRR by my count, including GCT and Penn. The main beneficiaries would be the stations in Queens beyond Flushing on the Port Wash line, Hollis and Queens Village, Riverdale, and the central Bronx MNR stations that are some distance from subway lines, like Tremont and Fordham. I am not familiar enought with these services to know whether their frequencies are sufficient to encourage (or handle) increased ridership if the fares fell.
By contrast, as I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are over 300 national rail stations within London's boundaries.
Fytton.
In answer to your question, yes, the commuter rail lines in NY could handle additional traffic.
The Port Washington line is double-tracked all the way to just outside city limits (Great Neck station) and could easily handle 4 trains per hour - however the caveat is that west of Woodside station, things get dicey for that kind of frequency into Manhattan due to the East River tunnel bottlenecks. Once the 63rd Street tube is open for traffic, this could be reassessed.
I take it commuter rail in London does not have the same bottleneck problems NY has...
They have LOTS and LOTS of Central London stations. At least a dozen, maybe more. We here in NYC have but two in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn.
wayne
"We here in NYC have but two in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn."
Well, actually, three in Manhattan (Harlem-125) and one in Queens as well (Jamica Station serves an important business district as well as the airport when AirTrain opens) - but your point is well taken.
>>> and one in Queens as well <<<
Have Woodside and Flushing been closed?
Tom
No, they have not. The thread refers to major terminals or large stations. Actually, Woodside does qualify - thank you for pointing that out.
"The impact of subway fares within NYC on LIRR and MNR traffic would be small, because so few MNR and LIRR stations are within the city limits - 13 MNR and 27 LIRR by my count, including GCT and Penn. The main beneficiaries would be the stations in Queens beyond Flushing on the Port Wash line, Hollis and Queens Village, Riverdale, and the central Bronx MNR stations that are some distance from subway lines, like Tremont and Fordham. I am not familiar enought with these services to know whether their frequencies are sufficient to encourage (or handle) increased ridership if the fares fell."
The most succesful commuter rail stations within the city limits are (a) those in comfortably middle class neighborhoods where the fare is worth it if the time to Manhattan is greatly reduced (esp. Port Wash line, Riverdale, but also Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and a few others) and (b) ones offering service to the suburbs without the need to go into Manhattan (Jamaica, which of course is also a significant center and a place to change trains, Fordham, Marble Hill, Woodside).
The ones that have done worst are in poorer neighborhoods where the money makes a big difference. Many have even been abandoned or had service cut to almost nil (S Bronx, SE Queens) in the typical downward spiral of poorer service and poorer patronage augmenting each other.
I know the S Bronx and SE Queens periodically agitate for better rail service, but it might not get heavily used at current prices. At a straight $1.50 those stations might have a lot more demand.
Certainly also a $1.50 fare would move a lot of riders from the E/F to the LIRR at Jamaica, Kew Gardens, and Forest Hills.
the typical downward spiral of poorer service and poorer patronage augmenting each other.
At a straight $1.50 those stations might have a lot more demand.
Certainly also a $1.50 fare would move a lot of riders from the E/F to the LIRR at Jamaica, Kew Gardens, and Forest Hills
All that is very true. That was also the truth on the Lower Montauk Branch stations also. Service was poor to say the least, so no one rode. No one rode so they could keep service poor and blame poor patronage. It's the chicken and egg scenario. Of course the stations were basically a "stop" at a grade crossing or something similar, and that also added to the poor patronage. (at least Woodside, FH, and Kew Gardens are "real" stations.) But anyway, the fare was also fairly expensive at the lower Montauk Stations (just like the other Queens stations). The difference was that the two to four trains a day that were run on the line were rush hour trains, so the fare was high, as it was peak-fare whenever you used stations such as Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, etc.
I had used Fresh Pond and Glendale occasionally because I was living in Ridgewood at the time, and it was convenient, as I didn't have to take a subway or bus to get to the station (and go all the way to Jamaica). I could just walk. I would have used them much more if they were priced more competitievely with the subway, and if the schedules were a bit more convenient also.
Well those stations are water under the bridge, but back to FH, Kew Gardens, etc, i think the crowding on the Queens subway line (and the 7 also considering Woodside and Flushing-Main Street on the Port Washington Line) would be less if the fare was not so high at the Queens stations. (The Brooklyn line stations would also be more used if the price wasn't so high. I have used the East New York - Atlantic Avenue transfer many times.)
The LIRR however is geared towards non-city residents though, or Nassau and Suffolk residents traveling to Penn or Flatbush. There is no service geared towards intra Nassau/Suffolk service or Queens and Brooklyn Riders. Making the fare between Manhattan and Queens cheaper would attract a lot more city residents, and take some of them off of the Queens Line or the 7 line. (or giving Queens riders on the old Montauk Branch who have no other subway access) The 7 would be a lot less busy if the Queens riders could use Main Street on the Port Washington Branch (and the other Queens stations along the line) and even Woodside on the LIRR. They are not going to do that if they have to pay $5.50 (peak fare) as opposed to $1.50 ($1.36) for a subway ride. Of course the fair should be a bit more on the LIRR than the subway, but not by that much. The LIRR obviously no desire to move outer-borough residents to Penn Station.
No Ron, Travelcards can be used for all rail lines in London. The system is integrated (more or less). Paris is the same.
Simon
Swindon
That's truly excellent then. Thank you for correcting me.
However, are they not still at a disadvantage schedule-wise (you don't have to consult a schedule to use Underground)?
In and around london there is a vast network of surface lines which operate to all areas of the Greater London Area. On jointly used lines frequencies are every few minutes whilst most branches operate every twenty to thirty minutes. In South London particularly the network is such that there is no need for the Underground. Most lines originate at a main London termius and quite a number have intermediate access to the Underground for travel within central London. Valid travel cards can be used on all routes and modes with the exception of the Heathrow Express.
Simon
Swindon UK
I still think it would be nice to extend Baker Loo to Lewisham (via Denmark Hill etc) and Victoria to Beckenham Jct (via Herne Hill/W Dulwich etc), those would be the two most logical extensions of the LU.
wayne
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Whenever you have service which does not approximate Underground service frequencies, you have unmet demand.
I have heard Londoners from south of the Thames, by the way, accusing the transport authorities of neglecting that part of the city.
I have to say thsat in my experience the transport arrangements in South London are excellent. I am off there taday, and will be travelling to Sutton. Underground to Victoria then train to Sutton with a choice of service. All on my one day travelcard.
Simon
Swindon UK
Good job you weren't travelling from Wimbledon to Sutton on wednesday last week. 90 minutes wait for a train (should be every 30 minutes). I took a bus, most people do! Oh yes, and the train from Tattenham corner to London was over 20 minutes late. They run every 30 minutes, but judging by the loadings, most people gave up with using the line years ago.
I did a rough count which I posted a couple of weeks ago here: there are actually *more* national rail stations within the Greater London boundaries than there are tube stations (about 310 versus 265), plus thirty-odd each on the Docklands Light Rail and Croydon Tramlink. You can't evaluate rail transport in London on the basis of the tube alone. National rail provides a large proportion of the total service, its fares are not higher than the tubes's, in contrast with NYC) and some of the services are good
In a way, Simon Billis and Max Roberts are both right about the south London rail services. The frequent national rail services (some of which, unlike the tube, have express services) are well used and fill the need. The less frequent ones are less satisfactory - one cancellation of a half-hourly service and people are waiting an hour. The Wimbledon-Sutton line, which Max instanced, has been a failure pretty much ever since it was built (in the 1920s) - it was designed to be an extension of the District Line, Wimbledon branch, but fell foul of the wars between the (then privately owned) Underground group and Souther Railway, and ended up as an orphan child of the Southern. Essentially its natural customers mostly use Morden tube station. My own opinion would be that it should be converted to light rail and made part of the Croydon Tramlink network; a 10-minute frequency of LRVs might be the saving of it.
Fytton.
So why not run the District line there instead! Use it for, say, the Edgware Road service.
wayne
My journey to Sutton from Victora today was fine. I had a fast (express)train on the return run (Clapham, Victoria only) which took about 25 minutes.
Form time to time there are problems with most rail services. London Underground is certainly not an exception. Go and watch the frantic passengers waiting for a "Heathrow" at Acton Town.
Simon
ex London occassional railfan
As a South Londoner, I completely disagree with Simon's claim. With over 25 years of usage behind me (as opposed to an occasional visits as a railfan), I feel highly qualified to do this.
Rather than have a long rant, I will simply state that compared with the Underground, rail services into South London are awful in every way imaginable, especially the 'South Central' area (services to London Bridge and Victoria).
Plugging these lines into the Underground network would be extremely easy, and would get around the miserable process of having to transfer to the Underground at a main line terminal in order to get anywhere useful. The traffic figures for various stations around London bear this out: people prefer a one seat ride to a fast ride to a terminal and a change of train.
If Cockfosters can have a one seat ride right through to the centre of London, why not important South London destinations?
Thameslink does not count:
Brighton Line services don't actually stop anywhere apart from East Croydon.
Sutton Line services branch into every half hour.
During Sundays and rush hours, various services either do not run, or run too infrequently to be useful.
Would my two ideas for LU extensions (Baker Loo to Lewisham, interchange with DLR; Victoria to Beckenham Jct, interchange with Croydon Tramlink) be of any consideration?
wayne
Wow.
Do you really expect the whole of the travelling public of South London the cram onto hot sweaty tube size vehicles with little ventilation, stopping at all stations, just to save a change at one on the London termini. I think you will find that most commuters walk to their destination.
Thameslink does count especially with stops at Kings Cross, Farringdon, St Pauls, and Blackfriars. Brighton Line services stoping at Clapham Junction for almost every station in Souhthern England including the service to Willesdon and the North London Line.
The major problem is one of marketing, and packageing the network into identifiable lines with pretty colours would end some confusion especially to tourists and the like.
Your comment about a one set ride from Cockfosters is only true if the destination station is on the Piccadily line. Change at Kings Cross for Sutton which incidentally has a fifteen minute service including Thameslink (except for today when there was a power failure).
Perhaps we ought to look to Paris and the RER network, and full size trains e.g Crosslink.
Simon
Ex London occasional railfan
In fact that's a BIG minus for NYC - the Commuter Trains are more expensive than the Subway.
Noted from other posts...
> If you're south of the Thames, there isn't much rail service.
If you're south of the Thames, there isn't much Underground service. That's not the same as not having much rail service. Rememebr, LT Travelcards are good on the railroads within the 6 zones of the Underground. Look at this map for details:
http://www.thetube.com/content/tubemap/images/london_connnections.gif
Nice map, very detailed, too bad some of the colours are wrong!
(Central, BakerLoo, Met, E.London to name a few)
wayne
What can I say, it comes from their official site.
Thank you for posting that.
Ron,the reason Brixton and indeed most of south east London is not served by the tube is due to the poor soil quality for tunneling.
The suburban (above ground) rail network is very dense here compared with other London areas as a dirct result.
-,
Brixton is by no means poor, House prices are very very high as is ANYWHERE in London that is within 5 minutes of the Tube.
.
Rob
Bad example - Brixton is the southern terminus of the Victoria Line, which is one of the more reliable tube lines. Other parts of south London with poor or ethnic minority populations do have poorer services. And house prices are horrendous *everywhere* in London, regardless of transport links, ethnic mix or any other variable!
"Bad example - Brixton is the southern terminus of the Victoria Line, which is one of the more reliable tube lines
Actually, it is an excellent example of poor service. Brixton needs more than just a terminal. That's like saying that Ozone Park has excellent subway service because the A train has a terminal there.
Extend the Victoria line, and bring another tube or light-rail line over, and then we'll talk again.
Another con for London
- No railfan windows of any kind.
At least the R142s and R143s allow passengers to look out the front of the train, even if it is a little blurry. London Underground trains have a windowless wall and door separating the cab from the rest of the train.
Except the Docklands.
Simon
Swindon UK
Ah yes, the DLR, that was a magificent ride out to Lewisham, with the City lights just coming on (too bad it was cloudy), we had the Railfan SEAT aboard #85, didn't we.
There's a peephole at the operators's cab door; I snuck a look out one from the rear of the train whilst on the Northern Line on my trip from Mill Hill East to Euston. It was better than nothing.
wayne
Right, I forgot about the Docklands. But is it part of LU or is run separately by another transit agency?
Now part of LU.
Simon
Swindon UK
Unless things have changed since we were there together a few weeks ago, Simon, I think you are wrong about the Docklands. It has been privatized and now belongs to Serco. But LU tickets are accepted on it.
Fytton.
I think Serco look after and maintain the equipment under a contract with LU. I will check.
Simon
Swindon UK
It would appear that Serco and the franchise operator of the Docklands and that DLR Ltd are the franchiser.
It would appear that Serco are the franchise operator of the Docklands and that DLR Ltd are the franchiser.
And DLR Ltd is owned by 'Transport for London' (TfL), the transport arm of the new (greater) London city administration. At present TfL is responsible for London Buses, DLR, Croydon TramLink, Taxis, River Services and London's road network. It is they who will administer the road pricing scheme.
Bizarly, TfL has (as yet) no responsibility for London Underground. That is owned and run by London Underground Ltd (LUL), which is owned by the(national) government. The reason is that LUL is in the process of franchising the operation of the Underground lines to three private sector operators/maintainers. TfL opposes that move, so the transfer of LUL to TfL has been delayed until the franchises are fait accompli.
Big politics on this issue going on between the London Mayor and national politicians. Right in the middle of this politicing is one Bob Kiley, late of the MTA and now chief executive of TfL.
See here for more on DLR Ltd. You can see the row between TfL and LUL reflected on their respective web sites: Tfl and LUL.
A little blurry? Maybe you say that because you live in the Bronx. Try it underground. I'm afraid that's more than a little blurry.
It's way better than just a peephole, I'll say that much.
It depends. I had a decent view through the ad-hoc peephole on an F train (R-46) this afternoon. (It's largely a question of motivation. When I want to watch the scenery go by, I want a large window, and fuzz is a minor impediment. When I want to study the details of the track layout, fuzz stands in the way while a peephole is a mere inconvenience. Unfortunately for me, I operate more often in the second mode.)
Given the choice between a largish but fuzzy window like on the R-142 and a small but clear window on the R-62, I'll take the latter any day. (But which genius put a coat hook directly above that window?)
If the problem is light infiltration, I still wonder why the obvious solution of a sliding curtain separating the operating position from the rest of the cab wasn't implemented.
MBTA does the sliding curtain thing on the Blue and Orange Line trains. The right cab window has a curtain, probably to avoid light reflection and to keep people from looking over the T/O's shoulder. The small R62 window is clear. It, too, is better than a peephole. Or nothing at all, like in Montreal.
Sometimes, the peepholes in the cab doors are missing, provididng a very limited view. Unfortunately, the only time I got these trains was when the car I was in was the last car.
So how good is the view out of the peephole?
Not very. The R142A "railfan window" is better since you aren't trying to look into a hole less than 1 inch in diameter.
One more thing...
In London or Paris, most of the busier stations have walkways by direction of traffic. That means "way outs(exits)" and "entrances" traffic are separated. Same rules goes to interchanges(transfers).
It also means longer walks, but the 72/Bway situation would not happen there.
Of course in Paris, there are quite a few people trying to go against the traffic, to avoid paying the fare. But that is, I believe, another issue.
Not ALL the trains are tiny; the Circle, District (all flavours), Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City, East London lines all offer 60' standard size cars; only the tube lines (their equivalent of our IRT) run smallish trains. And even they're 51-foot long, just not as wide.
wayne
Yet as I remember, the Central Line trains are pretty large, n'est ce pas? And the central line is a pretty deep tube....you need lifts at Lancaster Gate and Queensway to get to the surface as I remember.
Regular sized 1992 Tube Stock is used on Central Line. There are lift-only stations all over the place; one in particular that got me was Covent Garden (Piccadilly line), smack in the middle of the city, very crowded, tough to get in and out of. Another one is Edgware Road on the Baker Loo, I believe it is lift only.
wayne
There are lift-only stations all over the place; one in particular that got me was Covent Garden (Piccadilly line), smack in the middle of the city, very crowded, tough to get in and out of.
Not to mention utterly pointless - it is a grand distance of 0.16 miles, or if you prefer 845 feet (or 257 metres), from Leicester Square. It is actually quicker to walk from Leicester Square than to try to get out of Covent Garden. It is the only station in Central London which I think needs closing outright.
Try telling that to the thousands who use it everyday. No one could find Covent Garden if the station was closed.
Simon
Swindon UK
"Try telling that to the thousands who use it everyday. No one could find Covent Garden if the station was closed."
As Yogi Berra once said, nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.
Plus a nickel ain't worth a dime anymore.
No one could find Covent Garden if the station was closed.
Yes, it would be very funny watching the bemused tourists wandering along High Holborn!
Yes but -- Covent Garden is the trendiest tourist area in London. For much of the week the lifts at Covent Garden and the escalators at Leicester Square are both seriously overcrowded, indicating that both are needed to handle the passenger traffic. Covent Garden station is very well situated right in the centre of the tourist area. Leicester Square serves the theatre district and is also an interchange (albeit a rather unpleasant one with long walks) with the Northern Line. Both are needed, even though they are so close together.
Would it make you happier if they joined up the platforms and called them all one very long station with entrances at both ends (8-) ?
That would make it like one of those "stations" on the State Street Subway in Chicago. (I think the platform runs continuosly for 4 stations.)
I'd be more happy if a new Line got built NE - SW across Central London, maybe running in from somewhere in the East End, then Old St, St Paul's, Ludgate Circus, Aldwych, the old Jubilee Line platforms at Charing X, under the parks to Victoria then under the King's Road to Parson's Green. That would take a lot of weight off the Piccadilly Line.
Anyway, however horrible Leicester Square is, Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Circus are both worse. Also, there are other stations walkable from the Covent Garden area - for instance Charing Cross, Temple and formerly Aldwych (re-open it - the shuttle was cool!!!).
Agreed that a NE-SW line is needed - Mayor Ken's Hackney-Chelsea line is it, though heaven knows whether it will be built before the Second Avenue Subway!
Tottenham Court Road is worse than Leicester Square, but Oxford Circus isn't so bad - convenient cross-platform interchange between the Victoria Line and the Bakerloo Line is a good feature, which provides the way of getting from Kings Cross to Charing Cross avoiding those long tunnels at Leicester Square.
Still not a reason for closing Covent Garden!
Mayor Ken's Hackney-Chelsea line is it, though heaven knows whether it will be built before the Second Avenue Subway!
The proposed route of the Chelney Line isn't really a very good one. I agree with the section along the King's Road and to Victoria, but routing it via Piccadilly Circus, Tottenham Court Road and King's Cross will just increase the number of passengers trying to change at those stations (which are busy enough already, esp TCR) and fail to relieve the Southern half of the Circle. I therefore prefer an alignment more like the Fleet Line was meant to have, via Charing Cross and along the Strand.
I reckon the Second Avenue Line will reach Downtown before ground is broken on the King's Road.
Tottenham Court Road is worse than Leicester Square
Exactly... Leicester Square isn't bad (I've only used it three times ever and never had a problem - TCR I've had trouble getting into the station several times and once decided to walk to Goodge St).
but Oxford Circus isn't so bad - convenient cross-platform interchange between the Victoria Line and the Bakerloo Line is a good feature,
Agreed the cross-platform transfer is nice, but the Central Line station is something else...
Plus Oxford Circus is probably the station which most packs out the Bakerloo Line (Piccadilly Circus and Baker Street run it close).
Still not a reason for closing Covent Garden!
It's a horrid station to get out of (I've never tried to get into it - at certain times they don't let you it's so bad - Leicester Square copes then)! It makes Aldwych seem like it was good and that was closed because of the lifts. What I really want to do is cannibalise the lifts at Covent Garden to repair the lifts at Aldwych so we can have the shuttle back!
I guess you could call the Circle, District, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City, and East London lines, the Sub-Surface lines, the B-division of the LU. But are they the same width as our B-division cars?
Pretty close, i.e. the D78 stock is the same as the R32/R38 etc. (doesn't look anything like it, however)
wayne
Chris W is being very fair, so as a Brit can I make two more points in NY's favour:
The wonderful historic decoration of the NY stations (mosaics etc)
The London fares which are far too high
London needs to put windows in its transverse cab doors or at least put windows in the cab wall like the MBTA does. Is there a reason they don't?
the main reason is that wall between passenger saloon and cab is in fact the bulkhead on older stock with the cab just tagged on!
the bulkhead has some electrical gear on it also.
Rob
I thought that might be why. But couldn't they put a full-size window in the cab or "J" door instead of just a peephole?
I dont think it is right to make comparisons. Each system is different, each has merit, and each has weakness. But I have to say New York comes first because the pizza is better, and you get pickles at Jacksons Hole.
Simon
Swindon UK
Oh? And what about that famous restaurant where the Queen gets her food? I shopped there with my uncle - can't remember the name at the moment..
The name is McDonalds :). We have one ot two.
Simon
Swindon UK
I've been to them. They have McVeggie Burgers not offered in the US.
Seriously, though, there is a combination food store and restaurant (offers other things too) which has a contract with Buckingham Palace. It's smack downtown. It's trendy and overpriced, and I recall being able to browse for every kind of tea you can possibly imagine.
2 big pros NYC
1. During the hot summer months. almost all trains now have effective air conditioning.
2. Flat 1 fare zones much much easier to administer.
Biggest pros LON
1. Signs telling pax how long to next train
2. Adequate service even as late as 11 PM. Most lines still have trains running every 3 or 4 minutes unlike NYC which considers a 12 minute headway as adequate service
1. Signs telling pax how long to next train
When they first starting putting up those digital signs on platforms (the colorful ones, usually displaying the date and time), I thought that is what they had planned.
For example, If you were at let's say 33rd Street, the sign would say, "The next downtown local 6 train is now at 51st Street".
That IS what is planned. It's just that the rest of the equipment needed to make that happen hasn't been installed yet.
David
Does this equipment require the completion of the Control Center on 54th Street where the old bus depot was?
When will that be finished?
The new Control Center is indeed part of the project. I don't have a completion date, though...I believe the building is nearly finished, but it has yet to be outfitted.
David
The LIRR offers audible announcements of that type -but I don't know if all lines are included (the Port Washington branch offers that).
Yeah, but in London, many lines branch. If it is 4 minutes between trains on the Central Line, it means it is 8 minutes between trains if your destination is West Ruislip, for example. The District Line always runs frequently between Tower Hill and Earl's Court although it branches so many different ways on the west side of London, so service is not every 2-3 minutes to Wimbeldon. Don't worry. They don't send trains to Upminster every 2-3 minutes all day either. Many District Line trains turn back at Tower Hill and other places along the line.
Yes, I noticed that too, trains would terminate at places other than their (map) advertized terminals - i.e. the Piccadilly Line train that got me as far as Arnos Grove and the Metropolitan Line train that refused to go any further than Moorgate. There were others too.
wayne
We have them here in NYC, too. (I've suggested adding one more to the list.)
Here are what I believe to be all the LU terminals:
Bakerloo: Harrow & Wealdstone, Queen's Park, Elephant & Castle
Central: West Ruislip, Ealing Broadway, Woodford, Hainault, Epping
Circle: N/A
District: Ealing Broadway, Richmond, Wimbeldon, Putney Bridge (I think), Olympia, Edgeware Road, Tower Hill, Upminster
East London: Shoreditch, Whitechapel, New Cross, New Cross Gate
Hammersmith & City: Hammersmith, Paistow, Barking
Jubilee: Stanmore, Willesden Green, Stratford
Metropolitan: Aldgate, Baker Street, Amersham, Chesam, Chalfont & Latimer, Watford, Moor Park, Uxbridge
Northern: High Barnet, Mill hill East, Edgeware, Kennington, Morden
Piccadilly: Heathrow, Rayners Lane, Uxbridge, Arnos Grove, Cockfosters
Victoria: Walthamstow Central, Brixton
Waterloo & City: Waterloo, Bank
Many stations have what's called "dropouts" aka turnarounds, and to mention them all would indeed be a tedious, if not impossible task (for NY'ers anyway). But most of WMATA's listing is indeed correct, but there are a couple errors to correct/add (additions have multiple dropouts):
Bakerloo: add Stonebridge Park
District: Olympia shuttle operates between Olympia & High Street Kensington (no Dinky mainline service to Olympia)
H & C: Whitechapel is the weekend & evening terminal when Barking is only served by the District.
Piccadilly: Northfields
Victoria: Seven Sisters
I totally forgot Whitechapel, my bad. I was not aware that the Olympia trains went to High Street althougn I am looking at my tube map now and the line to Olympia only connects to the Edgeware Road branch. Most of these dropouts are at or near yards, I have a track map of the Underground which shows where all the yards are.
The District Line is definitely a weird breed. It's service paterns are like this:
Upminster - Richmond
Upminster - Ealing Broadway
Upminster - Wimbledon
Edgware Road - Wimbledon
Olympia - High Street Kensington
That's correct but there are intermediate termini (not everything goes to Upminster in the east) - Mansion House, Tower Hill, and some other places out to the east
and some other places out to the east
Like Plaistow, the one word in the English language with a silent "i".
'Like Plaistow, the one word in the English language with a silent "i".'
But the cultured recorded lady who does the automated PA announcements on the Hammersmith & City line trains pronounces it wrongly as "Playstow", not correctly as "Plastow"!
But the cultured recorded lady who does the automated PA announcements on the Hammersmith & City line trains pronounces it wrongly as "Playstow"
How irritating - and how funny! I prefer the human announcements anyway - there's nothing like them sometimes...
On the Midlands Metro that you despise so much, James, there is the reverse: Bradley correctly pronounced "Braydly". And the (different) cultured recorded announcement lady got that one wrong too.....
But it's not the *only* word in the language with that silent i - how about plaid, the piece of tartan cloth that Scots used to wrap round themselves?
Bradley correctly pronounced "Braydly". And the (different) cultured recorded announcement lady got that one wrong too.....
Yes, Bradley Lane on the site of the former Bradley & Moxley station. Quite what's wrong with the name Bradley & Moxley, I don't know, because the station sits conveniently between Bradley and Moxley. It's actually one of the better placed stations on the line!
how about plaid, the piece of tartan cloth that Scots used to wrap round themselves?
That silent "i" helps differentiate it from a loopy Welsh political party at least!
I decided not to list the intermediate terminals for the sake of not confusing everyone. To do so would be the same as posting something like this:
These are the routes of the A line:
207 St - Far Rockaway
207 St - Lefferts Blvd
59 St - Rockaway Park
Rockaway Park - 168 St
Rockaway Park - Dyckman St
Lefferts Blvd - Dyckman St
Far Rockaway - Dyckman St
Euclid Av - Lefferts Blvd
Euclid Av - Far Rockaway
As you can see, it makes it very complicated. Better to be simplistic sometimes.
The District Line is definitely a weird breed. It's service paterns are like this:
Upminster - Richmond
Upminster - Ealing Broadway
Upminster - Wimbledon
Edgware Road - Wimbledon
Olympia - High Street Kensington
District: add Parson's Green
Metropolitan: add Moorgate, Rickmansworth (very few trains actually terminate at these)
Northern: I think it's possible for trains to terminate at one of the Tooting stations, also Highgate
Victoria: Victoria (though I think almost all trains go to Brixton now)
I figured Highgate once I looked at the track map after writing up my list. Are you sure any trains are scheduled to terminate at Victoria?
I was on one that "dropped out" at Victoria.
The Tooting Broadway station has a terminal track too, in fact there was an accident there in 1971 when a train of 1938 Tube Stock lost its way and ran into the end of the tunnel, the driver had been reading a book(!), unfortunately it was his last.
wayne
Are you sure any trains are scheduled to terminate at Victoria?
I don't think any are actually scheduled at the moment, but in reality it does happen (say if the trains have bunched and there is congestion in the Brixton area - quite easy with a rush hour frequency of 28tph).
Heh - just wait til you get on a train which says "Fast Amersham" on the front...
2. Adequate service even as late as 11 PM.
Yes, but we don't have trains all night or (shock horror) on 12/25.
"Yes, but we don't have trains all night or (shock horror) on 12/25."
Well, since the Queen is head of the Church of England, can she not issue a proclamation allowing it?
:0)
Well, since the Queen is head of the Church of England, can she not issue a proclamation allowing it?
I wish. She's got herself into enough of a row over intervening in the trial of the late Princess Diana's butler.
Yeah, nothing like a monarch butting in where she's not wanted (yawn).
There's no Underground service on Christmas Day? Wow, that is shocking!
Yep, and on boxing day, the patrons take turns driving the train driver around the system while he catches a snooze. :)
There's no Underground service on Christmas Day? Wow, that is shocking!
I find that to be a little outrageous for two reasons:
-For the people who observe Christmas Day, how are they supposed to get anywhere (if they don't have a car), such as family, etc?
-For people who aren't even Christian, why should they all be inconvenienced?
I know the freedoms are a bit different in England than here, but I find it absurd to shut the subway system down on any religious holiday, whether it's part of the "Queen's" religion or not. Actually, I observe Christmas, but if I wanted to go somewhere, or to family, or whatever someone decides to do, I would want to be able to get there. I guess we are spoiled in New York with a 24/7/365 subway system. The truth is, while I'm sure there are plenty religious people who observe Christmas for what it is, but I think most people are not thinking of the "real" Christmas when they are shopping for their Christmas gifts. I feel it's become mostly a commercial holiday. I even know a Jewish/Catholic couple and always get a kick out of how they celebrate their mutual holidays in Decemeber. He's an Italian Catholic, and she is Jewish. Their decorations - a blue and white decorated Christmas Tree. A white poinsetta with blue foil. Santa Claus and a Nativity Scene next to a Menorah. It's a good compromise I guess, as mixed religion marriges like that are difficult around the holidays, as so many holidays are religion driven, or at least religion based. Come-on though, like people like that or in general are really thinking of the Nativity scene on Christmas Day - the subway should be open, at the very least for people who want to visit family or aren't Christian. And if it's a problem of workers wanting to be with their family, I'm sure there are plenty of non-Christian, or non religious workers who would love to get their double pay that day.
I'd like to know if there have been complaints voiced against keeping the LU completely shut down all day on Christmas Day and how many. London's a pretty diverse place, and I'm sure there are a significant amount of Londoners who don't practice Christianity.
>>> I'm sure there are a significant amount of Londoners who don't practice Christianity. <<<
Why are you so hung up on the religious angle? I am sure that most Londoners no longer worship Belenos (the Celtic god of the sun), but they still shut down the LU every night at midnight. Christmas is a family holiday with virtually all businesses closed, so like the hours after midnight, the LU closes because of a perceived lack of riders, and Londoners are used to it and accept it.
Tom
I'm not so hung up on it. I'm just curious to know if anyone's ever brought it up. I was surprised that the system shut down on Christmas day. Am I wrong to be surprised by it?
>>> Am I wrong to be surprised by it? <<<
Possibly, and maybe at some time in the future as conditions change, the LU will run on Christmas, but remember it is a two day holiday, (December 26th is "boxing day"). The 25th is traditionally spent close to home with the family, with a big midday meal and relaxation in front of the telly. The 26th is the day to visit others and take presents to them (the Christmas boxes). It is similar to the difference between Thanksgiving and the day after Thanksgiving in the U.S. (without the start of the Xmas shopping season).
Tom
Christmas is a family holiday
Maybe for your family. Not for mine.
There's always Festivus. :)
>>> Maybe for your family. Not for mine <<<
Not for me either since I have no family, and probably not for many immigrants living in London, but if you look at the context of the statement, it is true for London in general.
Tom
I can't speak for anyone else there, but I can promise that Christmas is not a "family holiday" (or any other sort of holiday) for the substantial Orthodox Jewish community of London.
Let's not forget the substantial Muslim community, which IINM is the largest in Europe outside the Balkans.
Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwaanza (did I spell it right?) are all family holidays.
wayne
Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwaanza (did I spell it right?) are all family holidays.
Yes they are, depending on whichever one, if any, you celebrate. Although you don't need an excuse to spend time with family.
There is no right or wrong one. Most people are the religion that their parents brought them into. It all depends on which one you were brought up on. I was brought up with Christmas, so that is the one I celebrate. If I was brought up with Hanukkah, that would be the one, and so forth. The important thing really is that there are family holidays, not the reason for the gathering. I have no right to criticize anyone's religion, just like no one has the right to criticize mine. Just enjoy December (that's when most of these religions have their celebrations for some reason).
Mandatory Transit conntent: Just be glad New York's subway runs on November 30th (early this year) and December 25th.
No, no, no. Those three holidays are not equivalents. Chanukah specifically celebrates the victory of religion over assimilation -- and, ironically, the uneducated have assimilated it into Christmas. In fact, it has nothing to do with Christmas. At all.
The primary ritual of Chanukah is the lighting of candles each night for eight nights. Aside from that, they're basically normal days. Jews of all stripes go to work on Chanukah.
If you're looking for family holidays in Judaism, look at the major Biblical holidays in the fall, spring, and early summer, as well as the Sabbath (every week). An integral part of those celebrations are two or three elaborate meals each day. Observant Jews travel only on foot, so time is spent at home or with the local community. Going to work, watching TV, and even reading SubTalk are prohibited.
Chanukah is completely different. Aside from a few minutes each evening, a day of Chanukah is pretty much like any other day of the year.
Oh, and Chanukah usually comes out before December 25. This year it begins on the evening of November 29 and ends on December 7.
Thanks for the clarification, but there is one upcoming family holiday that everyone shares if a part of this great country - Thanksgiving! We all have a lot to be thankful for. Thanks to all the people that gave their lives many years ago, we are able to even discuss our religious differences. There are so many parts of the world where this basic right is not in existence. There is so much killing in the world based on religion. I'm sure that whatever Higher Being there is did not have "killing in His name" as an idea of how the world should be. It's a shame that so many wars had to be fought for scores of centuries for that exact reason. Times have not changed all that much, have they.
Well enough of that, the subway is also open on Thanksgiving, so there's that mandatory transit again....
And the best day of the year to ride the subway is the day after Thanksgiving. Never had a seat during rush hour? Now's your chance.
Except during parade time. West side lines mostly.
Peace,
ANDE
That's on Thanksgiving itself. The day after Thanksgiving is quiet. I had many seats to choose from last year on a morning rush hour 2 train.
I DID NOT say that they were equivalent, only that they were "family holidays", i.e. days of specific (albeit different) observance, which are celebrated with family and loved ones.
wayne
And my point is that Judaism has many family holidays, but Chanukah is not among them. People travel hundreds of miles, missing even more work than they already have to, to spend Rosh Hashanah or Pesach with family. I can't imagine anyone doing that for Chanukah.
I can't imagine anyone doing that for Chanukah.
Actually, in my family we do... not for the whole holiday, of course, but we try and have at least one night when everyone will be together. Conveniently, it will be the first night this year (and the second one too). And of course Passover. Our family doesn't make the effort for Rosh HaShanah, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Members of your family travel hundreds of miles just to spend Chanukah together? I'm surprised.
Members of your family travel hundreds of miles just to spend Chanukah together? I'm surprised.
Yes, we do... our older son (even though he now identifies as a Southern Baptist, thanks to his ex-girlfriend's father, a minister) comes 465 miles, our younger daughter comes 210... older daughter (non-Jewish) can't make it (2500 miles), younger son is still at home. Sometimes we're the ones travelling... when our younger daughter was in college in Staunton, Virginia, we made the trip there for the last night one year (and our older son came up from NC). Long story, but the short of it is that I grew up with an interfaith background and my wife was raised Episcopalian, and for a long time religion of any variety was unimportant to us. One year, for whatever reason, I became aware that something was missing... found myself in a Judaica shop browsing and talking with the staff that fall, kept going back and talking more, ended up purchasing a menorah and a book with a Chanukah service and brought them home on the first night of Chanukah that year. I explained to my wife and children some of what had been going on in my head, and proceeded to set the menorah up and go through the service. When we finished the service my younger daughter hugged me and said "Daddy, what took you so long?" (to return to the faith) and I knew that our lives would never be the same. So for us it is a celebration of a major milestone in our lives as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for sharing that. You have very good reason to get together as a family.
Anon, you have nothing on me. I help celebrate Passover every spring with some Jewish friends of ours, and I'm a Catholic. What to you think of that one?
What a great story. Thanks for sharing.
No, no, no. Those three holidays are not equivalents. Chanukah specifically celebrates the victory of religion over assimilation -- and, ironically, the uneducated have assimilated it into Christmas. In fact, it has nothing to do with Christmas. At all.
Both Christmas and Chanukah observe the darkest time of the year.
Chanukah is a festival of artificial lights, when nights are at their longest. It infuses optimism in what would otherwise be a time of pessimism.
Christmas is a Christian adaptation of pagan rituals around the Winter solsctice, the darkest day of the year, but also optimistic in that the days now grow longer.
Kwanzaa is a modern invention to create an African alternative to Christmas and Chanukah, and is no more real or fake than the other two holidays.
Christmas is also celebrating the birth of Christ. Over the years pagan rituals have influenced the Church as to when the date is. Since there is no way of knowing exactly when Christ was born December was chosen to be the time to celebrate.
"Christmas is also celebrating the birth of Christ. Over the years pagan rituals have influenced the Church as to when the date is. Since there is no way of knowing exactly when Christ was born December was chosen to be the time to celebrate."
Actually, December was a very conscious (and very political)choice - see my response to David Greenberger's post.
Your point? At least two of those three holidays have historical contexts -- and they have nothing to do with each other. Candles are lit on Chanukah to commemorate a specific historical event. All that's similar about the "two C's" is that they're both in the winter. Does anyone suggest that Pesach and Easter are alike? (And there's even a historical connection between the two.) Chanukah is often closer to Thanksgiving than to Christmas.
What holidays others choose to celebrate is none of my business. I expect the same in return. I resent the notion that I'm doing something wrong by trying to treat December 25 no differently than December 24 or December 26 and I'm embarrassed by the ignorance of my coreligionists who make a big deal about Chanukah but haven't heard of Shavuot.
The only connection I can think of between Pesach and Easter doesn't actually involve Easter itself - Jesus celebrated Pesach with his disciples on the night before his Crucifixion (April 6, AD 30)
wayne
You're missing his point, David.
Religious holidays are multidimensional - they have historical contexts, as you describe, but they also frequently have seasonal or perhaps "environmental" contexts - though the latter may have been acquired more recently than the former. Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, but it's date was changed to coopt a Pagan winter festival. There is some evidence that the birthday was actually during the summer, then moved to January (where the Russian Orthodox Church still has it) then to December to help in converting pagans (and I do not use that term derogatorily) to Christianity.
While I perceive that Jewish holidays' basis is more stable, a holiday appears as it is expressed by the people who celebrate it today, and their interpretation, and the tone of that holiday and the season of the year do bear some relationship to each other. Nothing wrong with that.
Isn't Russian Orthodox Christmas in January, because they still use the old calendar?
You mean the Julian calendar?
I will defer that detail to someone else more in the know.
The move to December , though, was a very political move, clearly - and the move from summer to winter as well (although that is more controversial).
I don't believe that the holiday was ever in January. But the Orthodox Christmas is still in December, but 12/25 Julian falls on January 7 Gregorian.
In the 22nd Century, Orthodox Christmas will be 1/8. This is because Gregorian 2100 will NOT be a leap year, but Julian 2100 will be.
Now, how much do you want to bet that there will be plenty of computers in 2100 that will think there's a February 29th?
I don't doubt you.
>>> how much do you want to bet that there will be plenty of computers in 2100 that will think there's a February 29th? <<<
Damn!! It's the dreaded Y2.1K bug. I just checked my 1984 calendar program, and sure enough it is not compliant. I'll get to my programmer tomorrow to start on a patch. I wouldn't want to miss calendar any March dates. :-)
Tom
"Now, how much do you want to bet that there will be plenty of computers in 2100 that will think there's a February 29th?"
I doubt the operating systems will have a problem. I suspect that as part of the Y2K bug they fixed that little item too. Individual software that uses the date will probably be an issue. On the other hand, the problems are less serious than Y2K was.
Each Jewish holiday exists in a religious and/or historical context. Most have associated rituals, some more recent than others, some more widespread than others, but the rituals reflect the context.
The modern ritual of copying Christmas not only fails to reflect the religious and historical contexts of Chanukah, it directly contradicts them. As I said, it's none of my business what holidays someone else celebrates, but a Jew who celebrates Christmas is celebrating Christmas, not Chanukah.
"The modern ritual of copying Christmas not only fails to reflect the religious and historical contexts of Chanukah, it directly contradicts them."
In your eyes, yes. But then, interpretation is in the eye of the interpreter. Chanukah is a living tradition, is it not?
"As I said, it's none of my business what holidays someone else celebrates, but a Jew who celebrates Christmas is celebrating Christmas, not Chanukah."
It is not your place to decide that, any more than it would be someone else' place to decide you're being too stodgy about it.
Chanukah is a living tradition -- but it's a tradition. If I take the existing themes or rituals of Chanukah and modify them to my liking, that's still Chanukah, though some may wish to argue that it's not a proper rendition of Chanukah. If I never even take a serious look at the themes or rituals of Chanukah but instead invent something new and unrelated, even antithetical, then what I have is my own invention -- I may find it very meaningful or very enjoyable, but it's not Chanukah. Even if I, ignorant to the preexisting themes and rituals of Chanukah, call it Chanukah.
I believe Alice and Humpty Dumpty discuss this issue as well.
I do recall Lewis Carroll writing about that.
Still, your argument doesn't directly deal with where the line between "modify " and "invent" sits. It's a gray area...
There is a gray area, but it's sometimes clear that it's been crossed.
Again, to you (and that's fine for you). Not to others...
Then tell me, what do you think is an absolute baseline for Chanukah? What is the point below which the result, while perhaps a very nice celebration, is no longer Chanukah? (You agreed two posts back that there is such a point.)
There is such a point, but I will decline to place it - as I said, it is for each to judge in his/her own way. You have decided you know where that point it. I'm certain others out there know where the point is too - whether their placement is the same as yours is an open question.
Perhaps by surveying you can determine an average point or a median point...
I'm looking for an objective point.
I see you agree with Humpty Dumpty.
Not really. I'm trying to point out to you that each of us views this a bit differently. You want it in high contrast black and white - that isn't going to happen.
Christmas, although a religious holiday, has become a secular holiday in many ways, especially the last few decades. The commercialism of it has killed much of the religious meaning, at least in this country anyway. In Europe it is more of a religious holiday.
Actually all the "gift-giving" that Christmas has become in this country is not as extreme in some countries like Holland. Actually when my mother was growing up in Holland, December 25th was strictly a religious, church going, spend time with family type of day. Gift-giving was actually done on Saint Nicholas Day, which is actually December 5th. (I don't know if that is still the case there today).
Although I do agree with you that it would be a bit odd for Jewish people to celebrate "Christmas", I don't think it even has too much religious meaning for many Christians anymore either. Many atheists celebrate the secular Christmas. There are many things involved in the current "Christmas" that have absolutely nothing to do with "religious" Christmas. Santa Claus, a Christmas tree, reindeer, a flying sled, elfs, Macy's open extra hours. Please. Like any of this has anything to do with the "real" Christmas - whatever is left of the "religious" Christmas, of the birth of Christ, which wasn't even in December to begin with, is lost to many, and has absolutely nothing to do with the commercialism and business Christmas has become.
Of course, for many, Christmas is still a religious day, with good reason for those who observe it, but for many it isn't. Their kids can go to the mall and wade through the crowds there, and sit on Santa's lap, under a sled hanging from the ceiling.
Although I do agree with you that it would be a bit odd for Jewish people to celebrate "Christmas", I don't think it even has too much religious meaning for many Christians anymore either. Many atheists celebrate the secular Christmas. There are many things involved in the current "Christmas" that have absolutely nothing to do with "religious" Christmas. Santa Claus, a Christmas tree, reindeer, a flying sled, elfs, Macy's open extra hours. Please. Like any of this has anything to do with the "real" Christmas - whatever is left of the "religious" Christmas, of the birth of Christ, which wasn't even in December to begin with, is lost to many, and has absolutely nothing to do with the commercialism and business Christmas has become.
Christmas in fact was not traditionally a major holiday in Christian tradition. Easter was the big holiday, which actually makes sense - every person is born (Christmas), but in Christian doctrine only Jesus was resurrected (Easter). Christmas started becoming more of a big deal in a religious sense about 200 years ago, and its "commercialization" in the United States dates back 100 years or so.
As far as I'm concerned, my favorite holiday is Ground Hog Day.
I like your attitude...
" I resent the notion that I'm doing something wrong by trying to treat December 25 no differently than December 24 or December 26..."
I doubt any reasonable person thinks you're doing anything wrong. But if your plans for Dec. 25 involve expecting public services in the same manner as on Dec. 27th, you're out of luck.
This is because December 25th in the US and UK is a civil holiday established by the government in addition to being a religious holiday in specific religions. Therefore, no trash is collected, transit is on Sunday schedules (or no schedule in much of the UK it seems), etc.
In the US, with its specific disestablishment of religion, there is no legal significance to the religious nature that many but not all citizens give to the holiday. But you're still going to get the same (lack of) services you get on New Year's and Thanksgiving because of the civil aspect of the holiday.
The UK just takes this one giant step further. Even though there is no requirement to celebrate it as a religious holiday, they have taken the civil holiday aspect of Dec. 25 to such an extreme that you're basically stuck where you are if you don't have a car. There's no obligation related to the religious aspect of the holiday, just no public services either.
I don't disagree with any of this. I wish it weren't the case, and I don't see how a religious holiday can be constitutionally declared a civil holiday, but I don't make the rules.
Recall, David, that the UK has an official religion, and the Queen is the head of it. There is no such thing in the US. So, in England, that's acceptable; here it is not.
I know. I was referring to the U.S. in my post.
I thought that the Archbishop of Canterbury was the head of it.
wayne
No, he's not.
The Church of England was created by Henry VIII when the Pope refused to allow him to divorce Catherine of Aragon because she could not produce a male heir (this was in the 1530's). So he told the Pope to go mind his own business, and created a new religion to officially sanction his actions.
The history goes much deeper, of course, but that's the gist of the story as I remember it.
And as a result the C of E is a great religion - nice services, believe what you like - I think it's a great idea having a religion that has nothing to do with religion!
December 25, as a civil holiday is a flag-flying day.
Because I do not believe it should be a flag-flying day, I fly the flag upside down in protest.
"...I fly the flag upside down in protest."
To a member of the US Navy, that is the equivalent of a distress flare or a 911 call.
" I don't see how a religious holiday can be constitutionally declared a civil holiday, but I don't make the rules."
In the US it probably happened very gradually. The main indicator of a civil holiday is that government services are unavailable or extremely limited. In the 19th century there were hardly any government services, but probably a lot of employers closed for the day. Private trolley and coach services probably had limited schedules, if any, on Dec. 25.
As government started to provide more services, it would have been natural to provide the same holidays as the private companies did. Certainly MNRR's holiday schedule closely reflects that of the NY Central and New Haven Railroads (though I believe in certain cases like Washington's Birthday service has improved).
Today it would almost certainly be unconstitutional for a legislature to proclaim a religious holiday as also a civil holiday. But Dec. 25 is grandfathered in, so to speak.
This is because December 25th in the US and UK is a civil holiday established by the government in addition to being a religious holiday in specific religions.
In 1998 Birmingham City Council (www.birmingham.gov.uk) took the civil aspect to extremes and renamed Christmas Winterval. They were universally derided.
Here's what the Beeb said at the time:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/210672.stm
In 1999 Christmas was back in Birmingham, but the Christmas lights read "npower" - an electricity company.
The thing is, Birmingham did the right thing in 1998, but for the wrong reason.
Sounds like something they'd do in Alabama, except this is Birmingham Classic, not Birmingham America.
>>>Christmas is a Christian adaptation of pagan rituals ...
I was under the impression that ALL religious holidays are adaptation of Pagan rituals.
Peace,
ANDEE
Really? What is the pagan origin of Yom Kippur?
The Underground used to run on Christmas Day - when I was young, newly married, childless and impecunious, we didn't own a car, and we went out to Christmas dinner with another similar couple (American as it happened), using the tube to get there. If it hadn't been running the four of us would have had a less sociable Christmas. However, the major reasons for not running public transport on Christmas Day in the UK are (1) lack of demand and (2) desire to let as many public employees as possible spend Christmas with their families rather than at work. True, there are large non-Christian minorities in the UK (Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, etc.) plus plenty of non-believers, but Christmas is a public holiday and there is a tradition (mainly but not wholly Christian - one atheist friend of mine used to send cards saying "Greetings for the winter solstice") of families meeting up that day. We don't have Thanksgiving for that a month earlier, don't forget!
We don't have Thanksgiving for that a month earlier, don't forget!
That's a good idea... we should all celebrate Thanksgiving so we're sick of Turkey and we don't get all the Xmas-balls.
However, the major reasons for not running public transport on Christmas Day in the UK are (1) lack of demand and (2) desire to let as many public employees as possible spend Christmas with their families rather than at work.
(1) There would be enough demand to run a few routes - mainly longer distances. I could see the Birmingham - South Wales and Newcastle - Birmingham - West Country routes for instance doing well.
(2) It would be the first day I'd volunteer to work. Getting paid extra for the last day I'd want to be at home on :-D
Not only that but no main line trains, nor buses in most cities. The only ways of getting around on Christmas Day are on foot, by bike or by car. And yes, it irritates the beep out of me. People make WAY to big a deal out of Christmas - here in Leicester, the Christmas lights went up in October! Plus then there's all the sickening stuff about one's family... New York seems very tempting for Christmas, despite it being colder.
The holiday season is absolutely beautiful in the New York area. And yet public transportation operates on a reliable basis on Xmas Day and the day after Xmas is not any special holiday. I always tell people that if they go to London during Xmas, they basically lose 2 days of their vacation when it becomes very difficult to get around and so much is closed that one is almost forced to stay in one's hotel and walk to whatever open restaurans there are.
With airfares so low, you'll love being in the NY area at that time.
Just thought about anothe rbig advantage of NYC subway over LU. How many times have I bounded up the steps from the Picadilly line at Earls Court needing an Edgeware Rd. train and there is a train in the station with its doors wide open ready to depart on the track where the Edgeware Rd. train stops. I look on the side of the train for signs telling me what kind of a train it is...guess what there are none. Decisions have to be made quickly and none of the indicator signs are right there....why don't they have signs on each of the carriages to tell you what kind of a train it is and where it is destined for?
The LU trains do have destination signs on the cab ends of the trains. Recently they have been installing line decals and painting the grab bars in the line colors. I don't know how much that helps, though.
But that doesn't really help the person running up the stairs at say Earls Court, seeing a train on the tracks where the Edgeware Rd. trains are knowing whether or not the train is going to Edgeware Rd. You have to start looking for the destination signs (not the clearest of all at Earls Court, try to listen to the PA on the train if it is working clearly, ask a passenger already on the train etc. In NY, when a train arrives at Nevins Street, there is a sign clearly indicating on the side of the each car telling me if the train is going to New Lots Avenue or Flatbush Avenue (or whether it is a #2 or a #3). Just don't understand why this isn't important on LU.
If the problem in confined to Earls Court then it is insignificant. In New York there are (I may well be wrong)no destination boards. I think LU have more pressing needs for resources.
Simon
Swindon
NYC has two destination boards on each car, one facing each side. Remaining Redbirds also have them at the front of the train. And in NYC, a line like the District would have a whole bunch of different numbers or letters.
In general, the subsurface lines of LU are much more like the NY subway - the size of the trains, the style of the stations and tunnels, and the ability to re-route trains and to devise "new" lines by renaming (The Hammersmith & City Line and East London Line were called part of the Metropolitan until a few years ago). If they wanted to, LU could rename parts of the District system - the Edgeware Road-Wimbledon service would be an obvious candidate, I wonder what they could call it (the Kensington Line?). The Paris metro is NY-subway-like too, even to the very closely-spaced stations. But the London deep tubes are a different animal altogether, with a totally different feel to them than the NY subway, and little or no operational flexibility.
Yes, I've often thought the sub-surface lines need some sort of letter indicator, because saying "This is a Metropolitan/District/East London Line train" really doesn't help very much. The best I've been able to come up with is the following:
A Amersham - via Moor Park
B Watford - via Moor Park
C Chesham - Chalfont & Latimer or via Moor Park
D Uxbridge
E New Cross - Whitechapel/Shoreditch
F New Cross Gate - Whitechapel/Shoreditch
G Circle
H Hammersmith - Whitechapel/Plaistow/Barking
J Ealing - Tower Hill/Barking/Upminster
K Richmond - Tower Hill/Barking/Upminster
L Wimbledon/Putney Br/Parson's Grn - Tower Hill/Barking/Upminster
M Wimbledon/Putney Br/Parson's Grn - Hi Ken/Edgware Rd
N Olympia - Hi Ken
R Watford - Rickmansworth/Chesham/Amersham
The lack of any sort of indicator on the sides of subsurface trains is in my opinion the worst feature of the London Underground. Saying that a station is on the Metropolitan Line might not be quite as useless as a direction as saying a station was on the BMT, but it is a similar situation.
Santa won't be bringing any presents for you :)
Simon
Swinon UK
In Japan they call him Annual Gift Man and he lives on the Moon.
Do they have chimneys in Japan ?
Simon
Off topic, but the Christmas lights go up so early in Leicester because they double-up for Diwali, which is earlier than Christmas (in fact it was a few days ago). And Ramadan starts today, by the way!
Yes, that explains the lights (and the fireworks going on for weeks - apparently several hundred people have called the Council to complain about it), but the big Xmas Tree by the Clock Tower?
Not sure anyone said this. NYC is more flexible, at least in the core area of Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. If you have a problem (which is not always the fault of the system), it's easier to reroute trains around the problem and easier for passengers to find a different way to get home.
You're dead right there. Trying to get to Marylebone when the Bakerloo Line's f***ed is NOT fun! London Bus Map anyone?
Oh well... at least the buses are the same - they go at approx 6 mph - slow enough to make you annoyed, but just fast enough that you can miss one.
Having seen both, I could consider them equals. Architecturally, London is way different than NYCT, similar more to parts of PATH. The trains are faster in London between stations. And those GAPS! I can't honestly or objectively say which system is better, only that each has something unique and special to offer. If I had to choose ONE as being in better condition overall I would have to go with London. I didn't see any festering eyesores there at all, and I rode 90% of the entire system (100% of the Tube portion). The London trains, especially the 1972 MkII tube stock, are quite attractive inside.
wayne
There's a picture of a refurbished 1972 Tube Stock car in the London pages. It looks great, except for that peephole.
Given that this is like a parent comparing siblings (we shouldn't do it), I have to go with my new home town, NYC. EXCEPT for the lack of transfers between divisions, it simply puts more stops closer together more flexibly and ruggedly, 24 hours a day, cheaply (at the price of longer headways and dirt). It takes a licking and keeps on ticking.
Its not even a question! By far NYC Subway is the greastest on earth you have to be kidding me London!?!?! haha
Whenever I arrive at JFK, I take the 'A' train home to The Bronx. I notice people on the train who ride from the Rockaways to 59th Street - Columbus Circle. I have often wondered what it would be like for people who work at night to take the same trip by bus - presuming that the subway were not a 24 hour operation.
I am used to getting on a 'D' train at 1 or 2 in the morning and finding it hard to get a seat - so there are many people riding our subway during the midnight hours.
My question is: What is the difference between London and New York that makes it possible for people in London who do not have a car to go to work at midnight hours? Are the distances smaller? Are the busses able to cover long distances easily? Are there fewer people working the midnight shifts? How can people get around without The Underground running 24 hours a day?
There ARE owl bus services that serve Central London, and some of the surrounding areas. Not as comprehensive as the regular schedule, though.
wayne
The L is also standing room only, even after midnight many times, especially between 6th Ave and about Montrose Ave.
Saturday nights the 1/2 attracts rush hour crowds north of Times Square well after midnight. South of Times Square trains are empty.
I first noticed this on a ride from Flatbush to 86th on the 2 (the last express of the day, but it ran local north of 72nd due to a GO). I claimed the railfan window but the rest of the car was empty -- until Times Square, where I suddenly had a crowd pressing against me.
Keep in mind that, unlike NYC, London does run a special network of night buses routes, presumably to take the place of the Underground. Obviously, if we were to try shutting down all or part of the system overnight, we'd have to do the same.
The N to Astoria is often crowded all night.
Can you imagine going by bus from the Rockaways to Columbus Circle? Is the area of London smaller than that of New York? Would a night owl bus system work here in New York? I personally cannot see how it could. The crowds mentioned in the previous posts seem to indicate that a night owl bus system would not work in New York.
Again, what is the differnce between the two cities that - in my opinion - would make it impossible to have the night time activity that we have here in New York without a 24-7 subway system?
Can you imagine going by bus from the Rockaways to Columbus Circle? Is the area of London smaller than that of New York?
My impression (I've lived and worked in NY; I've lived near and worked in London) is that London is actually slightly more spread out and less densly populated than NY; although nothing like as spread out as most other US cities.
Looking at your specific example on online maps, I make Rockaway to Columbus Circle about 11 miles straight line. From say Trafalgar Square in London, Uxbridge is about 15 miles straight line.
Again, what is the differnce between the two cities that - in my opinion - would make it impossible to have the night time activity that we have here in New York without a 24-7 subway system?
I suspect there isn't a simple, single answer.
My very limited usage of the London Night Bus network suggests that it is mostly used by returning party-goers etc rather than late shift workers. It may be that London is less of a 24-hour social city.
Normal tube and bus services in London run late enough for evening workers (office cleaners etc) to use them. And I suspect most genuinely 24x7 operations probably have an overnight shift that starts before tube shutdown and ends after startup. Not sure how tube workers get to and from work though.
To ChrisW: Thank you for your thoughtful answer. It is what I was looking for. You gave me a better feeling for the differences between the two cities. It certainly crimps one's style not to be able to go to or from any place in the city when you want to. I appreciate our 24-7 subway.
Are there any other cities that have 24-7 subway service? The only one I can think of in the U.S. is Chicago (not all lines at night).
It may be that London is less of a 24-hour social city.
Don't forget the repressively backward British licensing laws. Pubs shut at 11, 10:30 on Sundays, those who employ bouncers and apply to a Magistrate for permission can stay open til 2 or 3.
Plus shops have an irritating habit of closing at 5:30 (whereas in Italy, they'll stay open til at least 8). Then there's the difficulty in getting anyone to serve you food after 10...
Then there's the difficulty in getting anyone to serve you food after 10...
10:00? Wow, that is odd. Even in the New York suburbs on Long Island, you can get food here long after that. In fact, maybe easier than in New York itself, you could always go to a 24 hour diner - which there is no shotrage of here on Long Island.
Then there's the difficulty in getting anyone to serve you food after 10...
10:00? Wow, that is odd. Even in the New York suburbs on Long Island, you can get food here long after that. In fact, maybe easier than in New York itself, you could always go to a 24 hour diner - which there is no shotrage of here on Long Island.
You ought to see what it's like in Phoenix. On our trip there last August, we were looking around the center of Scottsdale, probably the most "happening" suburb, for a place to eat just after 9pm on a Saturday evening, and most everything was shut.
I found the same thing in Delft, a university town in Holland - got there one evening about 9 p.m. because I had a meeting at the university the next day, and could not get anything to eat anywhere (not even at the hotel I was staying at). Even the bars closed about ten - in a student town!! Actually James was being a little pessimistic about the UK - in Leicester, where he is now student, I bet he could get a meal well after 10, especially if he likes Indian food.
in Leicester, where he is now student, I bet he could get a meal well after 10, especially if he likes Indian food.
Or dodgy Queens Road take-aways :-D so tempting...
Oh and I love Indian food - pity the Belgrave Road's the other side of the City... hey, I suppose I could look around Highfields and Westcotes...
Most of the Diners here on Long Island serve 24 hours a day; some are open major holidays (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter) too.
wayne
Excuse me sir, but the A train doesn't go to the Bronx=====or has there been a change.
His post infers that he changes for the "D" at some point.
wayne
Sorry about that. I change at either Columbus Circle or 125th Street for the 'D'.
But no one is answering my main question. What is the difference between the two cities that would make it impossible to have no subway at night in New York and yet makes it possible to have no Underground in London at night?
Around 0430am yeaterday morning while heading to work @ Gun Hill Depot when i past by the Westcheaster Yard i saw R33 10 cars 92xx with #4 sign up & it been there over 3 days now. Why the hell R33 doing in Westcheaster Yard?
DNJ
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Now, now.. r33's still have the right to be around!
..after all, no one's sent them to damnation...
...(atleast NOT yet!).
Are you sure it wasn't the worktrain/dolly consists?
I saw them both on the IRT 2 and 6 lines, this week.
give em hell redbirds !!
1. They might be converted for work trains.
2. They might have been stored there for this weekend GO. Split service on the 4 btwn Manhattan and Bklyn. Bklyn 4s terminating at 125-Lex and turning at 3Av-138St. I believe there was a shuttle train from Woodlawn to 125St.
I'd go with number 1.
Peace,
ANDEE
I would guess so, too!
Eesh.. Redbirds in Westchester Yard..
...nuthin' to have a cow about.
Hey, SubBus...what are you doing here posting at SubTalk? Who let you back in this establishment?!
Funny here you are showing up and so does heypaul....hmmmm...is there a connection?
With the addition of 70 R-142As to the Jerome fleet, the #4 line is now 38 cars over quota. Since space at Jerome Yard and Concourse yard is tight due to the temporary pause in the reefing program, cars may show up in strange places.
cars may show up in strange places.
I got room for one in my backyard if ye wanna
bring it over for me to babysit... :)
Oh. I thought the strange observation was that you saw SUBWAYSURF sleeping walking through Westchester Yard in nothing but his BVD's. :)
The Daily News has a story today on Bloomberg saying no West Side stadium for the Yankees, but OK to one for the Jets because the Jets only play at home eight times a year (plus pre-season) to the Yanks' 80 or so home dates.
The downplayed factor (it shows up well down in the story) is a baseball facility wouldn't adapt to serving as an Olympic venue as well as a football stadium would, but that controversy should be settled in a couple of hours, when the USIOC makes its pick between New York and San Francisco for the U.S. nominee for the 2012 Olympics.
If Frisco wins, it's hard to see where the the momentum for a new Jets stadium would come from, and in turn (to get this at least a little on message) it's hard to see where the urgency would be anymore to start developing a plan for extending the No. 7 train over to the Javits Center and the stadium site. If New York was to get the nomination and then get selected by the IOC, the pols would have to build the thing to avoid major personal embarrassment a decade from now from having an Olympic stadium with no transit access.
I think I aw that article also. It also said that someone asked what if construction starts for this stadium. The money and materials, ect are committed and the IOC decides the games are held in SanFrancisco? The answer was something like:
"it's guaranteed!."
Like they say in the movies:
"Be afraid. Be very afraid"
(If Frisco wins, it's hard to see where the the momentum for a new Jets stadium would come from, and in turn (to get this at least
a little on message) it's hard to see where the urgency would be anymore to start developing a plan for extending the No. 7 train
over to the Javits Center and the stadium site.)
NYC Planning has wanted to rezone the far west side for offices, residences, and other such space for 20 years, before the Olympic angle was even thought of. It's the best place to add jobs and tax revenues to support our services. And we're better off without the stadium -- the space over the Javits expansion could be filled by taxpaying hotels. In fact, the whole stadium thing would be a loss to the MTA, which could sell the development rights over the yards (a la Grand Central) rather than just having them used up.
(If New York was to get the nomination and then get selected by the IOC, the pols would have to build the thing to avoid major personal embarrassment a decade from now from having an Olympic stadium
with no transit access.)
I'd be happier if they got NJ to build a branch off the NE corridor line to the Meadowlands and put the Olympic Stadium there to replace Giants Stadium. Does the region really need TWO of those types of facilities? I wouldn't mind a baseball stadium on the West Side, as long as the Mets AND Yankees shared it. It's like every airline demanding their own publicly subsidized airport.
Well, now that the USOC has picked New York as the 2012 nominee, the Olympic Committee is pretty much locked into a West Side stadium for the Olympics and the Jets. Of course, all this means for now is there will be three more years of planning studies before the IOC makes its decision in 2005.
From a transit standpoint, though, they will have to come out with a more specific proposal for the Flushing Line extension to the site between now and 2005, and given the construction timetables in New York, whatever proposal is decided -- either a route straight across 41st to the Javits Center or a zig-zag via Penn Station -- they will have to be ready to let the contracts and start boring tunnels pretty quickly after the final selection proesses, if they're to finish building the one-mile extension in seven years.
NYC hasn't gotten the games yet. NYC is now the site for the US bid for the games in 2012. We have to wait 3 more years before the IOC decides where the games are to be.
That's what I said:
Of course, all this means for now is there will be three more years of planning studies before the IOC makes its decision in 2005.
I know.
It is that some people (not you) will be thinking we WILL have the games in 2012.
What other world cities are on the board besides New York? We are one step closer though, at least.
A lot of tough competition. I think London, Rome and Moscow are confirmed to also be vying for the award.
All cities that have already held the Olympics.
I hear also Toronto, Rio and Cape Town, which have never held the Olympics (Toronto lost to Beijing for 2008).
I have a question about something you railfans might want to help me out with
I wanna know when you are underground going underwater is their something on the tracks that tells you you are underwater
No.
Robert
You can feel it generally...the air shaft from the ventilation tower is generally right on the edge of land so when you feel your ears pop (which is because the train is pushing the air acting like a plunger and the airshaft acts as a escape route for the pushed air so your ears pop) that's generally a sign that you're leaving land/re-entering land.
Once upon a time... Before there were M1s on the LIRR
There were older types of coaches
whose commodes dumped directly onto the tracks!
There was a notice in the wash room:
Do not flush in stations.
It also said: do not use in tunnels.
Well, this lady just *had* to go, and the train *wasn't* in the tunnel (yet)
(can you see where this is going?)
She let go of some pretty urgen diahrrea just as the train entered the tunnel: and the stuff went up instead of down.
Like I said: It wasn't pretty!
Elias
Actually when I'm on the A/C Lines going to Manhattan, in the tunnels there are these orange Lights and I guess a doorway at each end of the tunnel that I think tells when you have entered underwater or when you are re-entering land.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
In NYC subway, at the last station before an underwater tunnel, a signal has 2 lunar (white) lights. If they're white, it's ok to continue. If they're red, the train operator has to call Command Center on the wayside phone (if the radio isn't working) to find out what's going on.
Those are called Cat's eye signals I think.
The name is Train order signals and they are also at Marcy Avenue Manhattan Bound and at other key junction udnerground such as the Rogers Jct (where the 2 turns off)
Well cats eye is nickname, I've heard it used from a few people.
No, there no demarcation.
Remember, for subway tunnels, you are pretty much always underground. The point at which you cross underneath the surface water boundary is largely irrelevant.
However, you may be able to dicern a difference in tunnel construction. For example, in NYC, a change from cut-and-cover to deep bore tends to mean that you are taking a dive deeper underground.
Matt
Simple. Whereever you see 1 or 2 cops sitting at the end of the platform, 24-7-365...
why do you want to know?
i look fdor the red pipes.
til next time
Refuse to get off a Redbird and you'll be underwater soon enough.
Ha!
No but if you stand at the railfan window, you could feel the air from the outside coming in from the 1st car, especially on redbirds.
in a rush to go see silver line construction due to a class assignment this morning
froze my ass off in south boston cuz i forgot my scarf
got home, discovered that in a rush i'd left my keys in the apt
realize that having no roommates has its downsides
discover that my landlord is in florida
discover that guy that lives in the same triple-decker is away for the weekend
discover that it's too cold to pry things open
go to the office to get screwdriver
discover that i have no keys to my office, and my screwdriver is in there
am at the computer cluster posting to nycsubway.org
When in doubt, always post to subway.org...
Good luck putting your day back together.
Today is the first day of SEPTA's Rail Power Project. How are things progressing so far? Has anyone taken a ride yet? My first ride will not be until tomorrow.
I'd say it is electrifying.
:0)
what is a SEPTA Rail Power Project?
It's "THE" SEPTA Rail Power Project. Catenary replacement between Suburban Station and 30th Street.
Lucky them, it doesn't affect me too much. If I NEED the R3, I'll use it, but I have many other options for getting downtown.
I am looking for information about William Coke, the subway motorman who played the train motorman in the original French Connection. I figured someone here might know. Any help would be appreciated.
Paul, I can't get the link to come up right now, but this link should have some information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris... Thanks for the link, but I think that it is just a file that they set up for his name, but it has nothing in it. I'm doing some research for a friend, who would like to get in touch with the man.
OK... it timed out when I tried to bring it up so I didn't know what it had. Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey paul - welcome back!!!
Am I glad you had a change of heart about Subtalk and the fine people who post here.
The Motorman passed away 10-15 years ago. The Conductor retired a few years back.
-Mark
Mark... Thanks for the info.
I saw a post of yours at the Brooklyn Board about Philips Candy opening on Staten Island. Have they opened?
>>The Motorman passed away 10-15 years ago<<
I was told he died of a heart attack, just like acted on the French Connection. Eerie similarity there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill... Did he die while he was still on the job?
It has me wondering whether many transit workers have died of natural causes while operating a train?? I'm also curious if the dead man's control ever failed in its design, such as a train operator falling onto the controller?
>>Bill... Did he die while he was still on the job?<<
Not exactly sure if it was on the job or not. He may have been retired when he passed, which is my guess.
Bill "Newkirk"
That did actually happen once some time back in the 1970's or 80's (when the R-46 still had the P-wire system); a T/O suffered a fatal heart attack while relaying a train past the 179th Street station, and fell over on the controller, thereby de-activating the deadman feature. The train ended up hitting the wall - there's a picture of the car involved somewhere on the site (I thing in the "wreaked/scrapped" section). Interestingly enough, someone here (Train Dude?) mentioned that they were able to get a P-wire loop in the other seven cars of the consist, and they left under their own power.
BTW, welcome back.
subfan
subfan... Thanks for the info and for the greeting...
Paul, I'm glad to see you posting again. Sorry, that I can't help you with any info -- this is not my area of expertise. Now, if you were asking about the Franklin Shuttle...
Hope all is well. I'll speak to you later.
Doug
No problem - but what on earth are you doing up at such an ungodly hour on a Sunday morning?! I, at least, have a couple of good excuses; first, where I am, it's seven hours later than the east coast of the US, and second, the workweek here is Sunday through Thrursday - when I was in the States, though, you'd never see me up before eight at the earliest on a Sunday.
Cheers,
subfan
where I am, it's seven hours later than the east coast of the US, and second, the workweek here is Sunday through Thrursday
You're in the Middle East?
That was a Friday night at about 10 PM. I had been working the PM tour @ Jamaice and responded. I didn't leave until somewhere around 9 AM Saturday. Actually, we were able to get P-Wire on the rear 6 cars. They were pulled out by diesel but once on the 3rd rail, they made the trip to Jamaica Yard under their own power.
Cars 1054 and 941 were left behind. The cab of 1054 was pushed back to the first door opening as you can see from some of the pix we took when we got the cars back to Jamaica. I don't think it was ever determined whether it was a fatal heart attack or stroke that caused the tragedy. You can imagine why.
Incidently, aside from the motorman and the conductor, there were 3 sleeping skels in the 3rd car. Neither they nor the conductor was hurt.
Welcome BACK, buddy ... I'm not CERTAIN, but I believe the Jerome Avenue wreck with 62's might have also been a similar incident but I'm not sure if the motorperson died or passed out ...
If you are talking about the most recent one, that was a low speed collision where there were only minor injuries. In fact, because of the link-bars and the grade of the track, the lead motor suffered little damage while the middle car took the brunt of the hit.
If you are speaking of the 14th Street incident, the motorman, left the scene under his own power. Following the advice of John Blutarski ("Animal House") he immediately began to drink heavily in a nearby park.
It was the one on the Jerome. I remember reading something here about the guy in the box possibly having had a medical situation and that's why it bumped the train ahead but then you know how "facts" can be here. The Union Square wreck was a moron completely out of control who deserved what he got and then some more that he didn't. But didn't know what the outcome of the Jerome "bump" was which is why I wondered.
welcome back
Is this THE heypaul? Hopefully this is NOT some trick by Train Dude...or Avid...or SUBWAYSURF...
No trick by me, Doug. I'm as thrilled as everyone else to have paul back with us. After those harsh words he had for us on the other side of the tracks, I thought we'd never see him here again. Nice to know we're all forgiven.
instead of being inside the 62 transverse cab motormans cab with my video camera...( just for a good discussion folks )....lol
WHAT IF INSTEAD ...only my videocamera was inside the motormans cab..
I would set it up quickly and quickly remove it at the end of the line !! ..................??
.. A follow up comment
I would not do this ( unless i could get a permit ),... today !!
I did have the thought of this onb my last #4 trip back to atlantic
avenue ...........
You would have to enter the cab to install and retrieve your camera.
And for you (or any media members) to get a permit to enter a cab and film would be a paramount task.
Considering that your films are primarily for personal use, the chances of you recieving a permit are extremely remote.
>>> Considering that your films are primarily for personal use <<<
They are not for personal use. Salaam offers them for sale to the general public (and they are good). That opens another can of worms about taping anywhere on TA property without a permit.
Tom
Under the rules I cited in a previous post, there is a section banning the use of system property for commercial enterprise without permission. There is also a section about photography for non-personal use. Salaam was and would be in violation of both of thes sections as well. The penalty could be as much as 10 days in jail for each offense.
then mark fienman would also be sent to prison ....eh train dude?
Salaam, the rules are the rules are the rules. It's not a joke. You broke them. You could have gone to jail. You could have gotten some innocent dupe fired. Don't you care about doing the right thing, ever?
of cource i did not want anyuone to be fired!
dude please !! the complaints about the hot cars speed restricted
govonors timers set so you get stopped at almost every signal,
and you should have heard this guy and what hell he was going thru !
and as well he was venting on me big time !!
i was taking it in on my way back to the final station atlantic av.
( actually i was done shooting for the day / night )
i am really getting sick from all of the attacks on me on this !!
>>>Salaam offers them for sale to the general public ...<<
I cannot help but wonder if he pays taxes on the income derived from the sale of such videos. They aren't that good either, Marks are better.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought you had more chances for personal, private use. If you use it for commercial use, you are getting rich without any credit to MTA for your pictures. Just like in the FBI warnings you see at the beginning of movies on videotapes. "FOR PRIVATE HOME VIEWING ONLY" because the company is not getting any credit for the people who have watched if you view it publicly. It is stealing, indirectly.
Maybe if you sprayed it with some invisible paint!!
Salaam, give it a rest! The railfan "window" era is over. And CTA mo lomger has a 'railfan seat at the ftont either. Such is life.
Remember that the flanged steel wheels on steel rails are still magic.
Salaam, any chances of that went with 9/11. Even though there may not be any real security issues involved with photographing from the cab even you can see that every security rule will be enforced to the fullest (except for tightening up the borders). Now don't blame the the NYCT or any other transit property for your disappointment. Instead blame your asshole fundimentalist muslim buddies for the situation.
HAHA! YES! Well put!
again i have no "" buddies "" .....not well put !! at all !!
>>>again i have no "" buddies "" ...<<
For once, you have something right.
Peace,
ANDEE
why not for once you say something that makes sense ?
LOOK in the mirror,,,buddy
Peace,
ANDEE
..........ladies first ..........
And here I thought this board was above religious bigotry. We're here by a common interest in the NYC Subway.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
>>> I thought this board was above religious bigotry <<<
Welcome to the real world. Unfortunately, some here believe it is open season on Islam.
Tom
... and most of them are about to be Re-elected ...
>>> and most of them are about to be Re-elected <<<
By "here" I was referring to Sub Talk. :-(
Tom
>>And here I thought this board was above religious bigotry. We're here by a common interest in the NYC Subway.<<
You're right Jim. However, it's called flaming. It occurs once in a while, full moon or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
TRAIN DUDE! TRAIN DUDE! TRAIN DUDE!!!
AND Sallam make sure you're clean shaven next time!!! We now have GOs to report everything suspicious...they made us watch a useless and moronic videotape...even the Train Dude had to endure it! Guy with a camera or a bag, bad. Guy with a camera or a bag AND a beard, very bad. Got a security problem??? Don't call Property protection, call ME!!! TD's thinking about this all and starting to laugh.
>>> Guy with a camera or a bag AND a beard, very bad. <<<
Did they show you one with a guy carrying a round object with a sputtering fuse, or has that image gone out of date? :-)
Tom
No that is the silent training film warning about those damn anarcho-syndicalists.
I thought they would show the nazi sabateur video.
>>> I thought they would show the nazi sabateur video. <<<
That would be the one which warns to be suspicious of anyone with any device that could be used for two way wireless communications. :-)
Tom
So, how many people here own cellular phones? :)
-Robert King
i do not have any beard & or hair on my head at all !!
ask those who met me on the last D type trip !!
We know, we've seen your *wanted* poster.
Peace,
ANDEE
oh yea ! the "WANTED FOR MURDER MR.PIG" ...!!
the truth about eating the HOG flesh ...
the kosher and halal is a much better diet !!....lol !!
havent ate any PIG since 1970 !!.........do not miss it !
i do not have any buddies ! ( the type you stated )
sorry to dissapoint you on that !!
mark fienman told me his video railfan career is over too !..??
Salaam, I really do not want to get into this on Subtalk. Let it suffice to say that (if not buddies) you are affilliated with the "Nation of Islam". Louis Fahrakhan has stated more than once that it's Allah's will that America be destroyed (or words to that affect).In any event, we're straying from the original topic.
Now the trend is for more and more rail properties to go to transverse cabs. With this in mind, and since you do sell your videos for profit, why don't you just incorporate, and seek permits to shoot videos as an employee of the corporation. I'm not sure but the fees might not be as steep as you might imagine. In any event, it'll be cheaper that the legal fees if you continue to break the law.
anyones religion sexual orientation political spiritual beliefs
........are off topic on this forum ....( & i am not with farrakahn )
so there !! ....daves borad is for as mr david pirmann states:...
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only"
*********************************************
ok i may have broke some law..maybe so. i was even mentally prepared
to have to pay the price for it ...etc....so what ??
at least i was a man about it and not some weak ass wimp !!!
i dont make any profit at all most of my videos were given away at all
of my expense to many persons and schools and non profit organizations
family some friends you name it have found my videos something great to relax to and enjoy and it has a healing effect on many deserving persons that i send my videos to heal many and soothe them as well
i also shoot marching drum sections mix live audio recordings for jazz and other experemental music for recording purposes & have done that all of my life ( before the digital still / 8 mm video /& vhs )!
i dont just shoot railfan vidoes only !! i have shot cross country driving videos nature videos scenic videos and stills pan shots etc.
i am a audio mixer recorder of many types of music own my own remote
recording studio.( just some of the things i give to the world )!!
i dont disagree with all of your post,.. shooting railfan videos is
somewhat a new field as i am the master of many things i do as a artist and have been told this by many !!..
hell last week i shot a ""funky live party" & made this look like a
big rap video !! & ( you ought to see a video of my marching drum section )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuiralumnidrumasociation/
check out my drum sections i work with as thier photographer video
for them as well
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jmadadrums/
train dude i almost have no time for my religion that i do not discuss with anyone else as i will never ask you about yours !
oh yea !! anyones religion is more of what they do !
& what do you leave behind when you pass away !!
think about it folks !
Well to keep on topic, forgetting how some may have been gotten, etc - let's drop the craziness everyone...
All in all, you do take some great photos.
thankz that is my goal to tak the finest videos / amd still pictures that i can ...
Ameng!
you can e mail me at my e mail ( i am not with farrakhan ) sorry !!
we can discuss the first three lines of your off topic lines there !!
but not on subtalk please !!
not on mr david pirmanns board please !! ( thank you ) ..
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
e mail me there & then we can talk !
mark fienman told me his video railfan career is over too !..??
Mark Feinman said no such thing. Don't you put words in my mouth.
--Mark
you did not say on the last steeple cab D type trip you have cut back on shooting of videos since 911 ??
also you told me th lirr would not let you shoot video on thier trains ....
"mark fienman told me his video railfan career is over too !..??"
Interesting.
ok ...go to the # 7 train with a vidocamera ...maybe they will leave you alone ?
...like they did back in 2000 ?? .....!! ..i was left completely alone back then !! ( 2000 world series )...
i have recieved e mail form those who have tried to shoot on that line and was stopped ASAP!!
& was told they cannot shoot a videocamera on the #7 train ..... !!..( after 911 ) ..
this is not only about ..mark fienman...is about all of us ...
very unfortunate ......i do wish this was not happening .......
so i went on a still picture taking spree and got hasseled too...
Not true. See this post.
--Mark
I never said to you that "my video career is over". My career is not videography.
The one and only time I tried to take video of the LIRR was at Jamaica in 1997. I haven't gone back on the LIRR since, not because I was shooed away, but because my interest has been focused on subways in general. LIRR trains generally run less often that subway trains do, and I don't want to wait for such long intervals to get video runbys.
As for cutting back on video, I cut back on "your type of video" i.e. shots from the front, because of, aside from common sense about heightened security right now, the ruckus you caused during your trip here. While before I may have gotten a friendly toot, smile and a wave from a T/O, your "entitlement to the cab" attitude that you have been crying foul about for the past month has made such an activity look suspicious. So for that, thank you very much.
--Mark
you got me wrong on ""your type of video"....whatever that is
supposed to mean...?..........!!
what i was saying sir is that i have recieved e mails from persons
who try to shoot " ANY KIND OF VIDEO " ....etc... & especially on
the # 7 train !!...hope this clears this up !!
i am going to ignore the rest of you post ...........
however i would like to see someone shoot the # 7 these days !!
good luck if they leave you alone & I HOPE THE DO JUST THAT !!
( that is my original & real point )..ok folks ?? ....thank you !
& not some other crap some on this board think about me which says
more of THEMSELVES than any thing else !!
good luck with your tr67 and anything you shoot in the future !!
sincerely , salaamallah
"your type of video" = video shot from the railfan window.
Hope that is clear.
--Mark
i saw a digital still of you doing that too on a redbird ..........
hope it came out well !!
i saw a digital still of you doing that too on a redbird ..........
hope it came out well !!
Hope that is clear, also sincerely good luck on your next shoot !
salaamallah ....just turned 51 ! yesterday ....
you said
"As for cutting back on video, I cut back on "your type of video"
but i say there is no "my or your type of video"
however there is the "peoples video" which is for all who are
interested in this to enjoy!
i do not do "your type of video" or "my type of video" just
" the peoples type of video " for the purposes of healing and
soothing and comforting the viewer who sees this kind of thing
like any other photogrer / videophotographer etc..
i try to take full advantage of any oppertunity (s) of each & every
situation i encounter whenever & whereever i may be weither it is
photographing nature shots scenic photography or video , for example
shooting from the dashboard of my 1982 caprice station wagon cross
country ( yes on video ) it was a challenge trying to make the orange
empire museum look good on video but somehow i will manage !!
but there is no "your type of video" or "your type of photo" ..
...etc.. this robs the person doing his / her artwork as we who do
this do so from our abilities talent prespectives and equipment we
can afford ! if it all comes together right the resuls is what did
fortunately did happen for me when i shot the # 7 train on my digital
still camera ! ( especially since they dont allow videos anymore )
photography / videos works (s) is not the only artworks is do.
audio mixing and recording ( recording engineer ) is another one !
so much for ""your type of video" bing some smart ass way of getting
me told and setting me straight!--- i do not think so !!
you can see just a thumnails sketch of my attempts at some of this!
thank you ............keep on shooting with yor sony tr67 ...
Salaam .. you read too much into things. You clearly have a preference for cab video. That is, as I said, "your type of video".
--Mark
seemed more like a nasty swipe at me ........i would nevr do that to you or anyone else ...
i have seen , & heard other cab videos like the pentrex videos and many others ...
thank you
Look Salaam, you had your big chance and you blew it!!!! Think long and hard about that day you got caught in a tranverse cab on the #4 line. It should be obvious to you, and everyone on this board, as to why you got caught. You were so close, but you made one mistake.
So my advice to you is this:
Stay away from NYC T/O's for a long time. You've caused enough trouble already. It's a shame stalker laws don't apply to substalkers like you.
Luch,
You are preaching to the choir.
Salaam has been repeatedly told the rules and what he did was wrong.
Nowever, he refuses to either acknowledge or admit he did anything that was wrong. It's pretty obvious. Read any of his responses to anyone who posted that what he did was wrong.
The rules he ignored and violated were in place long before his latest visit. Everybody who works in RTO has a copy of these rules. Even NYCT managers who don't work in RTO are aware of them. The rules are there for a good reason - safety. The cab of a subway train is no place for someone who is not an operating person. Period, paragraph.
That being said, when Salaam recognises that what he did was wrong, every Redbird that was reefed will reappear in the condition it was first delivered at every IRT yard, and the Myrtle and Fifth Avenue Elevateds will also reappear with BU's in full service. The Second Avenue Elevated will also reappear, complete with steam engines. :)
i said i was sorry this happened twice !! also i did this back in october 2000 on the #6.....
really getting tired of all of the attacks from some of the wimps ...
ugh !
Look, this was NOT directed at you, so stay out of it. It was a reply to LuchAAA, not Salaamallah.
ok my apology please ( thank you )
Apology accepted.
omg the REPUBLICANS have won everything !!
oh no !!
Life will go on. We survived Ronnie, we survived Daddy Bush. We even survived Nixon. It ain't the end of the world.
shit! ...........all hell is going to break loose !!
there goes the king & county !!
Wrong, Salaam, There goes the republican form of government in America. Hail to King George II.
a new boston tea party is in order !!
'Assemble the box in three lines. Charge your Enfield muskets, affix bayonets, sight in the Colonials and first line fire one volley upon orders.'
yea !!lets all head back to nyc with our cameras still & video ..
it b' like dat' party 4 our RIGHT to do railfan photography !
dont shoot until you see THE WHITES OF THIER EYES !!!
lol !!
Chill, John.
All is not lost. Learn from history, it teaches us that whenever the party the President is from increases or takes control of Congress in the mid-term elections, that President is defeated in the next election. It's happened before. It will happen again.
Learn from history, it teaches us that whenever the party the President is from increases or takes control of Congress in the mid-term elections, that President is defeated in the next election.
Not true. The last two Presidents who took control or had an increase at the mid-term elections were both named Roosevelt - TR in 1902 and FDR in 1934. Both won re-election.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You are right, but the two cases may not fit.
TR was not not elected, but suceeeded to the Presidency when McKinley was assassinated. The "rule" seems to apply to elected Presidents only.
FDR was the special case. Elected in 1930, he took office at the peak of the Depression and began the economic rescue. He suceeded a very unpopular Republican President (Strangely, Hoover was more successful after he left the Presidency, much like Jimmy Carter.)
1902 was Teddy Roosevelt's first election, so it doesn't fit your model.
Actually, 1904... but you're right, TR was there by succession in 1902, not election. But his party had been in control of the Presidency for a number of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello, I'm new and I'm really into the NYC Subway Im from NJ and got to NYC all the time. I was in the Transit Museam today and bought a nice piece of history. The Sign for the Car Number 7786. I have found out some infor about it but does anyone know where this would go and if it was a red bird. Thanks please email me at
bpawelko@comcast.net
Thanks
It would go on the side of the Car.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
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7786 was an R-26, and was more than likely painted red during its last years of service.
It was a 50' subway car, and may have been one of those that was dumped into the ocean.
Last summer I bought the car number sign for an R-26 also. I forget which car number. It's at home. But yeah, those things are cool and I'm glad I bought one. I really hope the Transit Musuem starts selling OTHER peices of REDBIRDS real SOON! HINT! HINT! HINT! I want a strap, and seat, a destination rollsign, and anything else I can can buy. I'm sure they have hundreds of extras laying around that they pulled out of Reefbirds so what in the heck is the freakin HOLDUP????? SELL ME STUFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!
--Brian
P.S. Sorry, I'm a bit wound up :)
They should sell more of all of that kind of stuff at the museum. I remember someone here saying that a lot of the stuff just goes in the dumpster (like the rollsigns). I'm sure many people would be willing to buy stuff like rollsigns (and not just railfans - tourists also, especially if they do it where there are tourists - like the GC gift shop). The money could be used towards the transit museum. It's better than just throwing it in the dumpster, I feel. I have bought quite a few things at the Transit Museum Auction when they used to have it. It was fairly cheap (at least the tag sale stuff part was cheap - I didn't bother with the auction stuff) I bought some station signs for between $8 and $25, and there was so much of it, that it was a hard decision on what NOT to buy.
I have an original column sign from the lower level 42 Street that was only $8, a large E to World Trade Center center track sign for $25.00, a side rollsign from the R46's for $15, etc, etc. There was so much stuff. The entire mezzanine level of the Court St Transit Museum and the platform level also was literally FILLED with stuff. I always thought they sell the stuff year round instead of once every two years having a tag sale/auction. Now they don't even do that anymore - I wonder why.
Yes, this car is/was a redbird, an R26 to be exact and the car# would go on the side of the train car in the front and back of the car since there were 2 # pieces per train car on each side.
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Why does the late night shuttle bus have a stop at Cortlandt Street?
Why not? The only reason why there isn't a stop at Cortlandt Street is because there is nowhere for passengers to exit, unless they want to take a death defying leap. Now if you want to talk about errors, check out the advisory for Nov 9 to 11 on the 1 (Uptown trains skip...). It says at the bottom for service FROM these stations take a downtown train to 59st and take an uptown from there, no longer! Now we can take a downtown train to 72st and catch the uptown! Wahoo!
I thought, as a matter of policy, that shuttle buses didn't serve stations that didn't exist. Otherwise, why wasn't there a 1 shuttle bus at all times before 9/15?
Yes, I saw the other error. It's actually a double error -- what's wrong with 66th?
The station "exists," at least for the purposes of the map. It is just closed. Before 9/15, there was no shuttle bus for the closed 1 stops. It was an operations decision of the MTA. For part of the time, it would have been nearly impossible to run buses from South Ferry to Chambers Street. Since West Street and Church Street opened, it would be possible, but it would clog the streets of Lower Manhattan with even more buses and would reduce the TA's already sparse bus reserves.
It seems that major station/connection closings get shuttle buses or shuttle trains on a case by case basis so as "best to serve the passengers and meet operational requirements." That has been the TA's argument when confronted with complaints about the closing of the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and cutting off three of the lines to Stillwell.
GO's are a little different, in that they tend to be at night and on weekends (or middays, in the case of the Williamsburg Bridge). There usually aren't as many options, nor are there as many passengers affected or street traffic with which the buses would have to contend.
Very true, but I understand the irony of the Service Notice also. It's set up like:
If you use the Rector St station, your shuttle bus will stop here, or if you use the South Ferry station, your bus will stop here or if you use the Cortlandt Street Station, your bus.........wait a minute, no one uses the Cortlandt Street station.
In reading an old NY ERA Bulletin from 1964, I noticed a small list of R-1/9 cars that had exchanged numbers. Those listed were...
100 & 190
115 & 196
118 & 192
119 & 191
139 & 185
Two R-16's exchanged numbers as well. They were...
6400 & 6418
This number switching was part of another thread some weeks ago and I thought there might be some interest in this info.
I'm not sure whether the the official NYCT policy is to permit number swapping. In the past 20 years or so, I have not seen it happen. In fact when on R-32 needed to be switched from a compressor car to a converter car (odd to even) to make up a marriage, they didn't give it the number of the car that it replaced. Instead, they went to an entirely new number outside of the R-32 sequence (3348).
In reading some of these old ERA Bulletins, I get the impression that they really went wild in switching numbers around in the late 1950's and early 1960's. The Q cars (three car sets of rebuilt gate cars) were the victims of a lot of number trading.
Of course I (almost) put my foot in my mouth and no one called me to task for it. Thre numbers were not switched but we did change over 1,000 numbers on the R-44 & R-46 fleets.
Of course I (almost) put my foot in my mouth
No you didn't. That was a complete renumbering of every car in the whole series. I'm glad they did, that's how I got my R-46 plate with #902 on it.
Wasn't there another R-32 which underwent a similar changeover and was given its wrecked mate's number? IIRC it was 3668 which became 3669 or vice versa. I may have the wrong car number.
The BMT Standards were also victim to number switching. A black and white picture I saw of Standards, on the West End about to enter the tunnel for 36th St., show a 2000-2499 series car wearing #2576.
We all know the 2500 series cars had the box air vents on the roofs. Also I've been told deck roof cars and low numbered cars had numbers swapped over the years.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just got back from Toronto on Thursday. Had a great time, as usual, but I noticed that during the mid-day hours, the streetcar lines, especially the Carlton line, ran much less often than in the past. I haven't been up there since 1995, did they cut service since then? Or was it just my imagination?
Oh yes, service has been cut. Almost entirely due to nonfunding - I've been hearing statistics that surface service is half what it used to be a decade ago while the cost of fares has approximately doubled.
Let's consider 1995 and 2002 in terms of streetcar service. In 1995 there were the CLRVs, the ALRVs and 17 PCCs. The 17 PCCs were retired at the end of the first full week of 1995. Since then, the Spadina line and the new Harbourfront line have opened - while the streetcar fleet shrank by 17 cars. This alone should hint at the size of the surface service cuts that have taken place since the transportation funding was decimated.
The Harbourfront line (509) only requires a small handful of streetcars to operate, but Spadina needs about 20 at least. All of these streetcars were made availible from a smaller total fleet that had surplus cars due to service cuts made on the other lines, including Carlton, before the two new lines opened up. Even if funding is restored, and there is no indication it will be, streetcar service can't be increased too much on all of the lines because there just aren't many availible in the surplus pool - smaller streetcar fleet (no PCCs) and more territory to cover (two additional lines).
-Robert King
I'm sorry to hear all that. Even so, overall service still seems better than places like Philadelphia, Boston, or San Francisco. Does that mean that service in Toronto was "too good" years ago, or service everywhere else is just horrible?
I wouldn't say that the service was 'too good' or that it's bad now, but you have to remember that the service being provided now is 82% paid for by fares without much of an operating subsidy at all. Personally, given the cost of fares and the extend of the service that is being run these days, I'd say the present service is very good.
Back then, when there were large operating subsidies paid for by the Government of Ontario and the City of Toronto, more service could be run and it was - indicating that the money being put into the TTC was coming out as better service than there is now, now that hardly any money is going in. Again, I'd say the service was good back then, given the amount of money the TTC had to work with.
-Robert King
I wanted to place one word in italics look what I ended up doing...
This is how that post should have appeared:
---
I wouldn't say that the service was 'too good' or that it's bad now, but you have to remember that the service being provided now is 82% paid for by fares without much of an operating subsidy at all. Personally, given the cost of fares and the extend of the service that is being run these days, I'd say the present service is very good.
Back then, when there were large operating subsidies paid for by the Government of Ontario and the City of Toronto, more service could be run and it was - indicating that the money being put into the TTC was coming out as better service than there is now, now that hardly any money is going in. Again, I'd say the service was good back then, given the amount of money the TTC had to work with.
-Robert King
I noticed that as well when I was in Toronto during the first two weeks of October. Whereas I used to wait about 3-5 minutes for the 506 and even the 505, the wait was more towards 7-10 minutes. I stayed at the Courtyard on Yonge and Wood Sts so that was my primary line into and out of the Spadina Chinatown.
This definitely seems to support the claims made that surface service on average has been halfed over the last decade.
-Robert King
Service has not been "halved" in the last decade, though there have been dramatic cuts since TTC ridership reached an all time peak in 1990. The subsequent recession meant less riders and also less funding. Very dramatic cuts were made system wide in 1996 and service has improved in many cases since then, but certainly not up to 1990 levels.
Current midday service Monday to Friday on Carlton is 21 cars providing 5 minute and 45 second scheduled headways. In 1990 during middays there were 27 cars providing 4 minute 22 second headways.
I wanted to know is the M-7's Comfort Level better than the R143's?
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
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Is a luxury motor coach more comfortable than a standard transit bus? Yes.
The new M-7's have seating similar to the new bilevel diesels. The subway cars, while offering an improved, quiet ride, still feature standard subway seating.
So the M7's are more comfortable than the new subway cars. But then you're paying more to ride them.
Maybe standard for NYCTA, but the seating on the subway cars I rode in Boston last week was much more comfortable than anything in the fleet here.
he new M-7's have seating similar to the new bilevel diesels.
Diesels *have* seating????
Where can I ride one?
Does it have a railfan window?
: ) Elias
LOL. Okay, okay!
How about:
Similar to the new diesel's bilevels.
Better?
Geesh..... :)
Isn't this sort of like comparing apples to oranges?
I heard that the comfort level is similar to the C-3 push pull diesel coaches. That's a lot better than the M-1's with their rattles and vibrations.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wanted to know is the M-7's Comfort Level better than the R143's?
You really should have asked if the comfort level is better than the M1's or C1's. You are comparing commuter railroad coaches to subway equipment. That would be like comparing a charter bus to a MTA bus. The subway coaches are always going to be less comfortable than a commuter coach. (And a commuter coach is always going to be less comfortable than a long distance RR coach like Amtrak) Its hard to compare the comfort level of different class equipment to each other because they are all meant to provide a different type of service.
Actually though, from what I heard is that they have similar seating to the diesel bi-level C1's(or tri-levels, whatever you want to call them), except that they have 3-2 seating as opposed to 2-2 seating. I'm going to assume that they are more comfortable than the M1's, but maybe a little less comfortable than the C1's.
The LIRR diesel coaches are all C3 class, not C1. The C1s were the ten prototypes that ran behind the FL9s. The C1s are no longer in service.
Yeah, that's what I meant, I know. I was thinking M1, and for some reason I kept typing "1" when getting to the C class. It was early, didn't have coffee yet.....
I asked that because, I thought maybe since they are brand new units, maybe they have the same comfort level, meaning is the ride as smooth as the M-7's.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
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It's like asking is college harder than high school!
Is the E terminating at 2nd Avenue or at WTC this weekend?
Normally, when the E runs via 6th, it terminates at 2nd. But this weekend, a different GO sends the SB F via Cranberry. Even if the work is south of 2nd, running the E to 2nd might lead some passengers astray. OTOH, it would be useful for those going specifically to 2nd, and the C/E/F crunch between W4 and Canal is a bit tight.
Probably second ave. Wat they usually do in such a case is the last stop southbound for passengers is W4, and then the train runs light to 2 Ave. Then runs in service Noprth from 2 Ave. AT least that's how its done when the D runs to 2nd and the F runs south through Cranberry,
When the D runs to 2nd, does it use the dash?
Not normally. The Grand Street shuttle relays on the express tracks. Before 12/16, it sometimes ran local and sometimes ran express (more often local, IME).
One night the D's were running express south, and local north for that GO...
When the D is extended to 2nd, doesn't it usually run one way via 8th? It has to go local on 8th to get to or from 2nd. (I was once waiting for such a D train at 50th/8th when one actually went by on the express track. I guess it terminated at WTC.)
If it runs on 8th, yes, it has to run local since the switches from 8th to 6th/6th to 8th only exist on the local tracks. That's why when something happens between W4 and Jay, any A trains that are on the express between 59 and W4 can't go anywhere.
As for southbound D's I've never seen one continue in service from W4 to 2 Ave (at least when it runs south on 6th) when the F runs south via Cranberry. The reasoning behind this is that they feel if people see the D come in and hear it will continue down the 6thAve line, they think it ill stop at Delancy and E. B'way and will be 'stranded' at 2nd Ave. At least that was the reasoning a TD gave me.
Oops... as for the D express at 50/8 yes, they would have been terminating at WTC.
Yeah, I know -- but it was signed for 2nd Avenue and all other D trains were going to 2nd Avenue.
I had been waiting a long time for a train. Maybe something had gone wrong on the local track so that D train had to be sent down the express. The next D train ran local.
The last time this happened,it was a total disaster!Believe me I was there for it and I lost count on how many people were CLUELESS! That day I was at Broadway-Lafayette and I had to tell a more than 10 people to either cross to the Queens bound platform and take a train 1 stop to West 4th and cross over again or wait for the Grand St shuttle.The same thing happened at 2nd Av. I noticed that the Brooklyn bound staircase was taped off but that must've been during the late night when the E ran to Whitehall St instead of 2nd Av.
But after that,they FAILED to tape off the platform! Sure the E was stopping where the V does normally but the Brooklyn track wasn't in use so as to why they didn't tape it off is beyond me.
I was on the staircase and standing at where the turnstile's were telling people who were about to walk to the Brooklyn side to go up to West 4th St and take the F there.Then as I finally decided to leave,I had people come into the E train that was on the brooklyn side before they went on wait forever for a train that wouldn't come.
Oh yeah and get this,some people actually THOUGHT that when they read the service notice on the wall saying it started at 12:01AM Saturday, they thought it was for the upcoming 12:01AM,I was there untill 7:30PM so that meant they thought it was gonna start 4 1/2 hours later.I know calling people names is bad but those that thought that were really dumb.
Yes, 2nd ave to Jamaica Ctr. via 63rd st.
For whatever the reasons was, I don't understand why this http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/45_edo.pdf and http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/45_edo.pdf "take-one" stated that E terminate at West 4 instead of 2nd Ave. The last time (back in Aug 31 and Sep 2) when this same G.O. on the E took place, E terminate at 2 Ave instead of West 4 and D was replacing E between 50 St and WTC. Only except that this time, WTC E platform is closed.
During the F line GO hours, the E runs 60th-B'way, terminating at Whitehall.
The other night, they ran one "rogue" E train express up B'Way, then thru 63rd st to Queens. Dunno why.
That's at night. I'm talking about the daytime version.
Incidentally, last week I was on a 6 train whose C/R made a very helpful announcement -- except he made the same mistake you did, and directed E passengers downstairs at 59th rather than up to the street. This was late Sunday morning.
Maybe the E was a reroute.
According to Station's G.O. List: The SOuthboudn E wierminate at West 4 and run light to 2nd Ave where it will neter Northbound service. Overnight E runsa on the R to Whitehall.
Okay, here's what was really happening today:
F trains were running via Rutgers in both directions. E trains were running to 2nd Avenue, with passengers.
The same thing happened last week.
I don't know if the F GO was cancelled or if it ended early.
(Also, 1 trains were running local from Chambers to 34th.)
I recently received word that, as of 10/31/02, there are no R-29's in service.
Can anyone confirm or deny? I last saw them running (on the 5, of course) on 10/24.
See this thread.
--Brian
I know there were a Redbird transfer on Monday and Tuesday nite to 207St. But Tuesday nite, I saw a Redbird set heading back south on the 1 line. this was around the 168St-191St area.........
Some Redbirds are not going to the Reef just yet. A group is re-emerging from 207th St with overhauled trucks and re-entering service.
-Stef
Stef, one would assume that NYCT brass are a bit nervous about scapping all the Redbirds since the experiences with the BOMBardier cars indicates reefing ALL might be a hasty decision.
I have suggested here that some of the Redbirds in better shape be kept for service increases (beyond the modest increase that would be otherwise possible). Is it possible that this is being done?
I have heard it said from various sources that a number of the Redbirds would be kept in mothballs - perhaps these are some of them - but they have to consider the fact that the majority of these cars are eaten up with rust and getting worse.
wayne
The majority, sure -- but some of the R-33's, at least to my untrained eyes, are still in good shape.
The best are now homes for the fishies. Widecab5@aol.com pointed out we're getting 'rotation cars' which are worn out cars taken out of service for several months and then brought back again...many, many problems that East 180th Street crew finds and repairs. R33s are rusted/rotten Redbirds now that can be made servicable for more extended time with decent MBDF but will never look like home again.
Ssstand Back, ...there's a Murricane comin' through!!
It is still a train. Remember what happened in Philly when a few M4s had major bugs and they scrapped all the M3s? SEPTA's busiest line was a mess. They need to keep cars in reserve, and if possible, use the best redbirds to provide service increases.
The best Redbirds became the best fishie homes...rotation cars are now being brought out of the yards to 239th for the East 180th crew to resurrect. Two pairs with severe freon leaks were scrapped today...probably will go to work service...the pair I had carbody assignment on today had 37.5 VDC invertor failure and brake package/emergency valve problems...holding me up for inspection in the dark to discover a broken door panel window improperly secured at 1PM. The job is always a lot of fun, especially when you're struggling to clear out ten minutes after the bell. CI Peter
The best Redbirds became the best fishie homes...rotation cars are now being brought out of the yards to 239th for the East 180th crew to resurrect.
Isn't that kind of dumb? Why didn't they just scrap all the
"rotation" cars first, and keep the best redbirds running to the end?
That's a good question.
Not a snowballs chance in Hell now!!! Last week, I received some OT.
R33 pair had received SMS in major shop...both cars had rebuilt trucks and groupboxes...job was to carefully inspect groupboxes for loose and missing connections which were found and repaired. Point is that TA has recently propulsion/undercar revamped several R33 pairs
for continued service until??? When Bombardier R142 warranties finally expire, all Hell will break loose and I think TA is finalizing
a 'survival plan.' OT for everyone!!! CI Peter, Ubreakem Mefixumup
The Bondo/Duct Tape Squad must be pretty busy nowadays.
Wait: TWO things now going on!!! NO overhauled Redbirds are to be going into RTO/passenger service by Federal edicts (from a CI on the floor.) EIGHT cars being rebuilt at 207th two weeks ago were probably being outfitted with 'diversion valve systems' so they can be used for work service/garbage trains. Yes we did receive three R33 pairs and I passed another pair today on the line with new trucks...got boquoo OT last week because I had to do special inspection of two group boxes...loose or missing 600 VDC cabling discovered by my Deputy Superintendent...had to torque and mark all 600 VDC hardware. Boyz...ride em while you can...Weeks is back at 207th loading Redbird carbodies today...the LAST Redbird excursion will have the fishies as railfanners. CI Peter
Sounds like you guys finally ran out of rotbird carbodsky still connected to chassissky ... at least without having to lower carbodksy by a footsky of three to find weldable steel. Feds caught up with you guys, eh? :)
That's fine, but the fact of the matter is there are Redbirds in service with overhauled trucks. 9074-75 have them and are carrying passengers, as is 8914-15. 9070-71 also came back recently.
So we have more work motors. They'll be put to use.
-Stef
You know that doesn't mean squat Stef. If they can send R27s through the CAP without the usual square wheels, then send them to Naporano two weeks later, or the 17s with brand new radio brackets, they can do it again today. When 9018/9 and 8958/9 got their work service trucks, 9018 had cast iron shoes and 9019's #2 was from the 7366. They were too lazy to install diversion valves on the car's trucks when they came O/S so they used the trash from the outgoing yellowbirds. Next time you see them, look at the numbers on the shoe beams.
NO overhauled Redbirds are to be going into RTO/passenger service by Federal edicts (from a CI on the floor.)
Why are the Feds getting involved?
--Mark
They probably aren't. Car Inspectors usually don't have access to such information (no disrespect intended to OTJ), and the federal government probably couldn't care less -- remember, NYC Transit is not under FRA rules.
David
To Mr. Greenberger & Everyone Else:
Last R-29 trip in passenger service was Thursday, October 24.
I have the numbers somewhere and will post when I get a minute.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
Widecab5@aol.com)
You're kidding! There I was, having just enjoyed a ride on a surprise R-33 2 train, and little did I know that the 5 train that passed in the other direction was on its last trip ever.
Did you have a bugle with you, to play taps?
The T/O driving the very last Redbird in service should be visited by an honor guard of Car Inspectors, Cleaners and Mechanics, upon reefing of that train, with a bugler and the Redbird standard folded and presented to him/her...
Hopefully they will keep a trainset for fantrips though.
Widcab5@aol.com can probably supply info in detail but I'll make this one short: #2 line is swapping R142s with #5 line. #5 will have all the higher numbers now...#2 is getting the older trainsets along with the 'storage cars.' The reasoning is very simple...two many trainsets floating around with incompleted modifications. #5 gets 'completed mod' trainsets to be used wherever (East 180th sans Redbirds) and the rest make 239th 'home' with the vendors to complete
all mods. Barge at 207th has fifty carbodies for the fishies. CI Peter
OK:
6301-6700 on the 2.
Everything else on the 5 for now.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Speaking of the R142s: I can NOT figure this 1 out. I rode 7718 on the 4 today and 7062 on the 5 yesterday and when I got to 59 St the message is comes over the address system as follows:
THIS IS 59 ST. TRANSFER IS AVAILABLE FOR THE 6 F N R and W Trains.
I do not remember the F stopping anywhere at 59/60 St and Lex Ave but at 63 St which is a few blocks away. Unless there's a hidden walkway where you can transfer from the 4 5 6 N R and/or W to the F that nobody knows about? Otherwise why is the F on this recorded address system? Either that or these R142 cars have so many glitches in them it makes Y2K look like a walk in the park.
#1625 4 Lexington Ave Express
Actually, there is an out-of-system MetroCard transfer from the 4,5,6,N,R,W @ 59th and Lex to the F @ 63rd and Lex
So if the 3 gets the 4's R-62's and the 4 gets the R-142A's that had initially been slated for the 3, then the oldest East Side car will be newer than the newest West Side car.
Wait a second...I only know 2 and 5. 3s and 4s are out of my line...
I have two left feet and struggling to do the 'Bomba Dance En Espanoil.' CI Peter
Anyone who wants to ride a "Redbird" train on a fantrip should come with NYD-ERA on December 8. Check the "Current Events" section of nycsubway.org for details. Remember, it's $45 before November 15 and $55 after, and November 15 is almost here!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroader's Association, Incorporated
Accompanied by the strains of Goodbye, Redbirds (to the tune of Good Night, Ladies).:)
7031-40 and 7056-65 have each entered service on the 5. Dave, you can put these sets down on the delivery page in service as of 11/4/02.
One of these sets spelled the end for the R-29s. Did they go to Concourse Yard?
-Stef
P.S. 7066-75 are burn testing for 5 service right now...
7031-40 have red squares under the car# plates. Wassup wit that??
Special cars for Rooskie CIs?
Does it have something to do with the fact that these cars have the newer automated announcement system also used by 6951-60, 7056-65, 7066-75 (not in service), and 7651-7730?
6951-60 have those red squares as well, and stay together most of the time. 7651-60 also stay married.
-Stef
I received the following from my dad who in turn received it from informed railfan Bernard Ente. Enjoy...
--------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:37:06 EST
Subject: NYC Redbird Subway Car Status Oct 31 2002
Cars Reefed (667):
R-26 100
R-28 92
R-29 216
R-33 112
R-33s 1
R-36 146
Cars stripped at 207th (72):
R-26 0
R-28 0
R-29 4
R-33 50
R-33s 0
R-36 18
Cars being stripped (in progress) at 207th (8):
R-26 0
R-28 0
R-29 0
R-33 2
R-33s 0
R-36 6
Cars Waiting to be stripped at 207th (6):
R-26 0
R-28 0
R-29 0
R-33 2
R-33s 0
R-36 4
Cars in Storage at Concourse Yard (82):
R-26 4
R-28 6
R-29 0
R-33 58
R-33s 0
R-36 14
not counting last night's arrival of 20 R-33 cars from Mosholu.
Cars in Storage at Unionport (36):
R-26 2
R-29 14
R-33 10
Cars in Storage at Westchester (10):
R-33 10
Cars Held for EPA at E. 180 St. (10):
R-26 2
R-28 2
R-29 2
R-33 2
R-36 2
Cars Used with Signal Dolly @ 207th (8):
R-33 8
Cars Used by Police @ Floyd Bennett (2):
R-33 2
Cars Used by RTO @ Canarsie (2):
R-26 2
Cars Used by Coney Island O/H (2):
R-33 2
GRAND TOTAL: 905
REDBIRD FLEET STATUS
R-26 7750-7859
Fleet Total: 110
Reefed: 100
207 Street: 0
Concourse: 4
EPA (E. 180 St.) 2+2
Canarsie 2
Total in Service: 0
R-28 7860-7959
Fleet Total: 100
Reefed: 92
207 Street: 0
Concourse: 6
EPA (E. 148 St.) 2
Total in Service: 0
R-29 8570-8805
Fleet Total: 236
Reefed: 216
207 Street: 4
Concourse: 0
EPA (E. 180 St.) 2
E. 180 St. 14
Total in Service: 0
R-33 8806-9305
Fleet Total: 500
Reefed: 112
207 Street: 54
Concourse: 58
EPA (E. 180 St.): 2
Unionport: 20
Westchester: 10
Signal Dolly: 8
Coney Island O/H: 2
Scrap: 14
NYPD Floyd Bennett: 2
Total in Service: 220
R-33s 9306-9345
Fleet Total: 40
Reefed: 1
207th 0
Concourse: 0
Museum: 1
Total In Service: 38
R-36 9346-9769
Fleet Total: 424
Reefed: 146
207th: 28
Concourse: 14
EPA (E. 180 St.): 2
Total in Service: 234
Total Redbirds in Service: 492
Cars Reefed (667)
Total to Delaware: 567
Total to South Carolina: 100
Cars stripped at 207th (80)
Cars Used with Signal Dolly at 207th (8)
Cars Used by NYPD at Floyd Bennett (2)
Cars Used by RTO at Canarsie (2)
Reefed Car Totals:
Delaware:
Load Number Load Date Total Cars for Load
1 8/16/01 27
2 8/23/01 30
3 9/06/01 31
4 9/20/01 31
5 10/4/01 31
6 10/13/01 31
7 10/24/01 30
8 1/10/02 31
9 1/19/02 31
10 1/23/02 32
11 1/30/02 34
12 2/15/02 32
13 3/01/02 32
14 3/21/02 32
15 4/18/02 32
18 8/21/02 & 8/22/02 50
19 10/28/02 & 10/29/02 50
South Carolina:
16 7/09/02 & 7/10/02 50
17 7/29/02 & 7/30/02 50
That's the whole list
WHEW!
--Brian
Damn, I didn't know Bernie was up on his Redbirds! He's mostly a mainline RR kinda guy...surprise, surprise...
What about Corona's (7's) Redbirds? By far, they are in the WORSE condition!
Brian, Thanks for the update, i've printed off a copy for future reference.
Mr rt__:^)
Run, don't walk, to your local supermarket where you may be able buy a box of General Mills brands cereals that come with a free copy of the movie "Muppets take Manhattan" on DVD! Why should you do this, you ask? Hmm, let me count the reasons:
1) you're hungry
2) you just bought a new half gallon of milk and need to use up your almost empty old half gallon of milk (my reason tonight)
3) you want to see movie scenes of HOBOKEN TERMINAL of Edison MU cars leaving the station (featuring Miss Piggy)
4) you want to see movie scenes of an "LIRR freight train" being pulled by an LIRR MP-15 [i think] and passing two parked GP-38's [i think] with the Manhattan skyline in the background (featuring Fozzy Bear in a box car)
This is a classic movie that the whole family can enjoy! Happy hunting.
--Brian
"Muppets takes Manhattan?.." Sound like Barney will be discharge from kid's favorite prime time show. :)
No, this is a movie. And a witty one at that. Today's kids don't dig this stuff. That's the problem with today's yutes. They like stuff like Barney and not stuff like the Muppets. Our society is going down the toilet.
Wow...those seem like good LIRR scenes. Does the LIRR still run MP-15s?
4) you want to see movie scenes of an "LIRR freight train" being pulled by an LIRR MP-15 [i think] and passing two parked GP-38's [i think] with the Manhattan skyline in the background (featuring Fozzy Bear in a box car)
RUN, DON'T WALK, to your nearest supermarket!
How old is that movie?
1984 - click here
--Brian
Hey! When did NJTransit get new MU's? I saw one in Penn Station from my train which departed at 7:22. I wasn't aware they got new coaches? What model are they? Who are they made by? They were stainless steel with an R-142-like decal that ran along the bottom of the car. The middle doors seemed wider than the older MU's. Have I been asleep at the wheel?
nappy
Not for NJT, but LIRR. These are M-7s.
-Stef
Yes, you've been asleep. Have some coffee and then read the posts on this site more often :)
--Brian
NJT hasn't gotten any new MU cars, what you saw were their new stainless push-pull coaches, the Comet V.
Hmmmm. Either he can't tell an MU from a coach, in which case he is confused; or he can't tell NJT from LIRR, in which case he is confused.
The Comet Vs have some similarities to the M7s - side windows, for example. Door layout is completely different, though.
I have some recent photos of Comets but couldn't figure out how to post an image in this message box. If anyone can explain how, I'd be glad to post one. Thanks.
write ". That will do it. Please post them!
Tried it but it didn't work. My photos are JPEGs accessed using MS Photo Editor.
If I copy the picture nothing happens when I try to paste into the message box, with or without the quote marks. Please be a little more specific with your instructions and I'll try again.
Oops, I screwed that last post. I'm going to a big train show in Syracuse now. (How's that for an excuse?) I'll try to post better instructions when i get back. Sorry.
--Brian
First you need to post the picture on a webserver somewhere. You cannot just copy them into a text post.
Once you have it on a webserver, you use standard HTML code to display it here.
The actual line of code that caused the picture to appear is:
{img src="http://test.assumptionabbey.com/Photos/BNSF.jpg"}
where you replace the { } with < and >
The "webserver" that I am using is in my own office. Win2K and XP both have built in webservers which you can use if you have a static IP number.
Elias
The "webserver" that I am using is in my own office. Win2K and XP both have built in webservers which you can use if you have a static IP number.
Can anyone do that if they have XP (which I do). What is a "static IP number"?
A "static IP number" means you have an always-on connection to the internet (cable modem, DSL, dedicated T-1, or some such) AND that said connection has been assigned a fixed IP address, not one that changes every time you connect. When I first had cable service I had a static IP address, but my provider changed everything and now we connect through a DHCP server, which means that each time I reconnect I get a different IP. The security of my computer is significantly enhanced as a result, but it can't be used as a webserver that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. I use a dial-up connection at both home and work, so I can't use that idea.
The IIS server is standard on Win2K and WinXP, but is not loaded by default. You need to install it from your system disk and set it up as a "service" (a service runs when your computer is booted up, but before you actually log on to a desktop).
We have DSL and love it all to peices, the static IP number costs us an extra $10 a month. But we also use it to host our own email (MX) server.
Tis a simple matter to run the IIS as well.
We have about 20 computers on our network, all sharing that one DSL connection. If you have more than one computer at home it is cheaper to run DSL than to run separate dial up lines. (Especially since it also serves as your telephone line all at the same time) In that case the DSL router protects your IP number from being hacked. The one computer with the ISS / MX server however is outside of this protection (as it needs to be for you to address mail to us or access the ISS webserver. (Actually, I am running both ISS for web pages and Apache for remote (web-based) email access by our users.)
You *can* have a static IP number with dial up, but 1) it will cost; and 2) it will be as slow or slower than ever. We originally had 14 computers sharing a single 56K modem (on all of the time, but not a static number) before DSL was available in our area. Even so we did not buy the FASTEST option that our telephone company (ISP) offered.
Elias
A DHCP server does not imply a static or non-static IP. On most Network the DHCP server is usually responsible for maintaining static IP's based on a hardware address. Its a little hard to do IP printing if the IP's keep changing.
If I copy the picture nothing happens when I try to paste into the message box, with or without the quote marks. Please be a little more specific with your instructions and I'll try again.
The photos have to be posted first online somewhere, you can't post photos from your own computer to a post unless you already posted it online womewhere. Once you have a URL for a photo, it should be very easy to post it, that is if your photos are downloaded in a site that allows it. Webshots and many others do not make it possibe.
Speaking of which, does anyone know of a place where you can post photos (cheaply)? I have just started to scan many of my photos, and would like to share them in posts once in a while, but have no idea where to begin. Anyone have any suggestions?
If you have a static IP number, you can do it right from your own computer, even if you do not have a web domain.
The IIS server is already part of your Win2K or XP operating system, and I think it might also be on Win98 or ME, but I am not sure about that, but in any case it is not installed by default.
Once you do load it, the help menus that go with it will also become available to you. Or your can download a free copy of Apache from the internet. There is a version for Windows.
When you put a computer on line like this you do need a firewall to protect it from attacks. There are some good free ones out there. I use "Tiny Firewall" a freebe that came with one of my hubs.
Elias
>>> If you have a static IP number, you can do it right from your own computer, even if you do not have a web domain <<<
Your picture did not come through, but looking at the source makes me think you might have forgotten a quotation (") mark.
Tom
If you have a static IP number, you can do it right from your own computer, even if you do not have a web domain.
the code line then would look like:
{img src="12.23.190.250/Photos/ETrunsR9,jpg"}
The IIS server is already part of your Win2K or XP operating system, and I think it might also be on Win98 or ME, but I am not sure about that, but in any case it is not installed by default.
Once you do load it, the help menus that go with it will also become available to you. Or your can download a free copy of Apache from the internet. There is a version for Windows.
When you put a computer on line like this you do need a firewall to protect it from attacks. There are some good free ones out there. I use "Tiny Firewall" a freebe that came with one of my hubs.
Elias
PS: Dave gives us this nice preview option that you can play with until it works correctly, but which I clearly failed to do with my last post :( Me Bad
NEXT TIME:
When you post HTML tags, you don't need to use {} and tell people to replace it with <>
Just use the following:
< = <
> = >
& = &
So if you want to enter <Q>, you would use <Q>
NOTE: You must enter these things as all caps, and you cannot preview them. If you must preview, click back on your web browser and post from the form, NOT THE PREVIEW!
If they had NJtransit logo's on them you most likely saw the new Comet V pushpull cars made by Alstom in Hornell NY. NJTransit has no new MU's
Ok, so NJT isn't getting MUs anytime soon, probably not till after 2015 at the soonest, and the Arrow III's will probably not be replaced by MUs, but by some locomotive (ALP-48s? perhaps Swiss Re460s this time?) hauled comet VIs, to beat FRA regs on MU operation. But just for the heck of it, let's suppose that NJT is gonna go EMU in the immediate future, or at least purchase a few for Local service, while locomotive pulled comets run the express routes. What EMU currently on the market would you select for NJT if you were on the commitee? You can make basically any modification to get it onto the American rail system, such as electrical systems, seating arrangements, and truck systems.
I would have to say that the Danish Flexliner would be on the top of my list. Of course modifications would need to be made to it, such as decreasing the pitch, possibly making it 3+2 (that'd have to wait til the M-7s are fully in service, to see how they do with the 3+2 to 2+2 seating change), also a single unit version would be needed, with cabs at either end of a non-married car, for use on the Dinky and so on, but I think the semi-articulated married-triplets sounds like a good idea, it would mean only 16 wheels on the gound where there had been 24, which would mean lower maintainance fees, of course if something goes wrong in one of the three cars, that's one more car out of service than with the MAH-1Js. One of the interesting things is that with the DMU versions of the Flexliner, it would seem to me that you could take the DMUs and EMUs, place them at every other set in a train, perhaps DMU-EMU-DMU-EMU-DMU, and then run the train out from under the catenary, acceleration would suck in either regieme, and I'm hoping that the EMU version is a bit more powerful than the DMU, but in that configuration the train could be run from Port Jervis or Hacketstown direct into NYP.
Anybody else got any critism, or better ideas?
Man, you confuse an MU with a push/pull coach and you commit blasphemy on this board. Alright, I'm guilty. I saw the overhead access air-conditioning units and mistook them for pantograph units. I was on a moving train. My bad
nappy
Hey man, I wasn't getting down on you for thinking the Comet V was a new and improved Arrow, heck that was the first thing I thought of when I saw it. It's just that NJT has MU-phobia, they're afraid of the costs that the FRA levies on those that insist on running them. Hence the 9 car ALP pulled comets that are replacing 12+ cars of Arrows, resulting in more than a few standees. Pretty soon it'll be SEPTA, MN, LIRR, and Metra as the only railroads running MUs in the Us, if the current trend continues, and even then, Metra's electric Highliners comprise only one line of the system, and are probably on the way out anyway.
The major reason that NJT is avioding MU's is the FRA regs that consider every MU as a locomotive and requires all the FRA rigamole and Mickey Mouse stuff that goes with a locomotive, but nothing as severe for a passenger coach, even one with cab controls.
The FRA is worse than even the ICC on steriods.
The Flexliner would also have been an ideal solution for Amtrak's Hartford-Springfield service. If they ran a DMU and an EMU Flexliner together, they could have kept through service to New York, Philly and DC instead of having to run shuttle service from Springfield to New Haven or changing power at New Haven like they do now.
However, the Flexliner was made by Adtranz which Bombardier took over in late 2000, and I think Bombardier isn't interested in making the Flexliner anymore. They have their own DMU/EMU train, the Talent. The Talent is a very nice-looking train with a bullet-shaped nose. But that bullet-shaped nose prevents passage from one car to the next, something you can do in linked sets of Flexliners.
If NJT gets its way it won't get new MU's ever. There is the strong possibility that they will try to go 100% push pull.
Whoops, I didn't see you state my very point.
NJT is not going to go with any sort of euro-trash car. Euro-designs are simply too small for the sort of crush-load traffic that NJT sees. They will want something with as much interrior room as possible and of course hi-lo-level platform capibility.
I would look toward the design of the SEPTA Silverliner V. Of course no 2-2 seating, but two, extra wide hi/lo doors would almost be a given due to the new FRA regs eliminating vestabule doors on the end of "leading" cars. The alternative would be longer MU trainsets of 3-5 cars with end cars maybe having a 3rd single door setback from the cab end.
Hey, don't worry about it, I got my post in a whole minute before you, in all likelyhood my post wasn't on the board when you started posting your response.
Why wouldn't NJT go for European rail cars? MN and LIRR are going for the M-7, which isn't much different from the Flexliner, just married pairs, not triplets, and there are two more doors per side for three cars. That is one thing that would have to go, NJT NEEDS at least 2 doors per car per side, that and the 2+2 seating are two things that would have to change if an Americanized version were ever to be built, unlikely though that may be. Seating can always be changed, if something is 2+1, it can be made 3+2 just as easy as having a socket wrench handy.
Silverliner Vs would also be nice for NJT, especially if they're all that the Septa pamphlets make them out to be, at the least we'll get an RFW (maybe, assuming NJT doesn't go all FRA friendly on us).
The M-7 is not European in way except for some asthetic similarities. European rolling stock is light weight (for less safety) and much smaller, in both width and height. Combine light rail vehicles with coach busses and you have Europen trains.
Like the M-1's did w/ the R42/44/46, the M-7's sort of have a unified design theme with the R-142/3's. NJT typically gets a more mainstream design that is as off the shelf as possible. So they would either try to get something like the Silverliner V as by the time it is needed that design will be a tested and working product just like the ARROW III's were off the shelf Silverliner IV's.
Oh come on, "European rolling stock is light weight (for less safety)" simply isn't true, they run as tight a ship as sny railroad over here, it simply happens that they manage to avoid accidents, and as such have no need for over weight train cars. Besides, it isn't the weight of a car, it is how it's engineered. Unfortunately right now I don't see a lot of real original structural engineering going into railcar design, FRA regs could be met at lower weight, and yet the design would be every bit as safe as anything on the rails today. Within 20 year europe will begin rolling out Composite railcars, which will weigh a fraction of what a steel car weighs, and have loadings equal to or greater the loadings that a steel or stainless steel car can take now. Composite Aircraft have been flying for over 30 years now, and a few have saved their pilots lives in situations where an aluminum plane would have shredded. Just because a train is light weight does not mean that it's is weak. In fact, a lighter trainset should be safer, especially in a front-on collision, there is less pushing on the back of the colliding car, and consequently less force on the car's body. Assuming that the car is well engineered, it should come out better off than anything out there now.
Alright, the Flexliners are small, I'll give you that, but to me the Metropolitan series from the MTA looks small as well, but in reality thay are at least as big as the Arrows. I guess I need to visit Denmark, to get an idea of the actual size of them. There does appear to be an oversize aisle, undoubtedly a side effect of the intercity routes that they run, and that could be eaten into to add seats and make it 3+2. Besides, even with 2+2 seating, a 12 car train of Flexliners would at least equal if not surpass a 9 car train of Comets, and do it with greater acceleration, every bit the speed, and greater reliablity.
I get the last part, it make sense, but first off, how can you say that the Arrows and Silverliner IVs are mainstream designs? There are 1609 or so M-1s,2s,3s,4s,6s. I couldn't find a good roster for Septa, but got 557 (I know that number is wrong) Silverliner Is,IIs,IIIs,IVs and Arrow IIs,and IIIs (not Arrow Is). If that is the case, then which is the "mainstream" design, the Ms or the Silverliners/Arrow? The Silverliners/Arrows may look like the old MP54s and stuff, but if the Ms were built in greater numbers, then aren't they the new Mainstream design? I suppose it's a moot point cause now Septa is buying the M-7-derived Silverliner V, if NJT follows suit (not that that is likely), then MN's New Haven branch will be the oddball MU operation in the US.
One last question about the Arrows and Silverliners. Which of the three came first, the Arrow II, the Silverliner IV, or the Arrow III? I know there has to be some interesting history there, since all of them are slighly different. GE built both the Silverliner IVs and the M-2s, right? IF so, then is there any relationship in the large roof mounted fairing on both designs? I always assumed that the traction package for both was similar. Or is that HVAC equipment?
manage to avoid accidents, and as such have no need for over weight train cars.
HA! In the UK they have had a seriously fatal accident for each of the last 4 years. Its killed something like 80 people. In all of the cases lightweight car design attributed to the death toll. In one case a train flipped over and broke appart after hitting a vehicle on the tracks. Imagine if that happened every time there was a grade crossing accident over here. As AEM7 has pointed out, a standard US car can absorb 1MJ of energy. A European coach is safely designed to absorb 2MJ at each end, for 4MJ total. Now, compare the weights and speeds involved in trains compared to cars and you can see how disproportionate the rail safety measures are.
Composite Aircraft have been flying for over 30 years now, and a few have saved their pilots lives in situations where an aluminum plane would have shredded.
Yeah, except in the case of that A300 over the Rockaways.
There are some cases where bigger is better. Look how an SUV will just demolish any sort of normal car it hits. Trains and rolling stock needs to be able to demolish obsticles that get in their way, not fly off the track, rip open and kill hundreds of people.
There is also the issue of comfort. Lightweight cars ride like shit. They are also undoubtably smaller. An Amfleet coach car is the size of a European first class car. If commuters are stuffed in the cramped, bouncy rail vehicles, no matter how fast the acceleration is, they will just go and get into their big old SUV for a nice smooth roomey ride to work.
The M-# design was designed by the MTA's in house design office I believe. The Arrows and Silverliners were designed by their respective builders. Furthermore, the LIRR and MNRR are very different operations from NJT and SEPTA. For one, the former uses all hi-platforms in its electric territory.
The roof bulge on the Silverliner IV and M-2 are for dynamic brake grids. I believe that the order is Arrow II, Silverliner IV and Arrow III.
don't know if you know, but there are new EMU'S coming to NJT. they will be made by Bombardier. they look like one of the EMU's that is used in Germany, built by the same manufacturer. go to www.transport.bombardier.com to see them. you may have to see them in the media center. don't know if you know thats why i am posting
New DMU's are coming to Camden from (former Adtranz) in Berlin for NJT's SNJLRTS.
More photos at bottom of Webshots page.
the one that i seem to be looking at are supposed to be the new lightrail vehicles for njt. i am most likely mistaken the one that i have seen are not diesel powered. they are electric and not made in berlin. they are made in some other city. in Germany. have you seen it?
The new Light Rail Vehicles for NJT are either the Kinki Sharyo LRVs that NJT is running up in the northeastern corner of the state on the HBLRT and the NCS, or they are the Adtranz DMUs from Germany for the SNJLRTS. You won't be seeing much variety on the HBLRT, NCS, or even the Newark Elizabeth Rail Link, as NJT seems to be going for a unified roster to keep maintainance costs to a minimum, all the artwork that has been done for the NERL shows the same Kinkis that the NCS and HBLRT use.
Near as I can tell, the DMUs that NJT will be running on the South Jersey Light Rail will be similar to the German Class 646, but with the front end similar to the less streamlined Class 650, oddly enough using the 646's automatic coupler. Of course Mr Vogel has as always been kind enough to post his pictures of them online at his webshots site. In Germany these DMUs are perfectly acceptable as mainline or at least branch line trains, however, here with the insane FRA breathing down everybody's neck, they are considered too weak to go head to head with a trio GP40 and their 50 cars (probably corret anyway), so they are relagated to LRT duties only at hours when heavy rail trains are not using those rails.
I suspect that the EMU you probably saw was Bombardier touting it's Talent series of DMUs and EMUs. In typical bombardier fashion, they don't really specify whether they come in diesel-electric dual mode, or just one or the other. It seems to be that it's just electric and just diesel. To make it worse, the photos that come up in sequence at the top of the screen make show the diesel and then the electric version under some catenary, just to confuse us. NJT's DLRV is based off the Adtranz series that became Bombardier's Talent, but, IIRC, they aren't the same product. The Talent is signifigantly heavier than the DLRV, and travels faster, it is more suited to mainline local running between major business centers as opposed to the DLRV's ancestors, which were the ones to handle the lighter load runs from suburbs to rather rural areas. I think the DLRV had to be slowwed down and lightened up from it's German ancestry to make sure the FRA would leave NJT alone over it's new line, they already must not like the shared use thing with CSAO, and it wouldn't take much for them to decide that it's their business.
Hope I helped a little .
Thanks
exactly
Actually the Talent was built by Wagenfabrik Talbot in 1996, but shortly after that, they were acquired by Bombardier. It's become very popular in Germany both with the DB and the private local lines. Norway's rail system also purchased some of them and Austria's rail system has electric-powered Talents on order. And of course OC Transpo in Ottawa, Canada, is running them. I'm surprised Bombardier decided to build the Adtranz-designed cars for the Trenton-Camden line. I thought when they acquired Adtranz, they would use Talent DMUs on the line. The Talent is a much more attractive car, IMHO, than is the 646/DLRV.
This is a photo of an NJ Transit Comet V coach:
Oh, and here's an interior shot:
This photo and previous photo courtesy Bob Daniels from www.ble373.org
Are these trains in service and on which lines?
Very few are in service as of yet. They can be found running as 3-car sets (I suppose) along the Morristown Line. I am not sure though, of which line the train belongs on, since the Gladstone, Midtown Direct, and Boonton line trains could run via the Morristown Line through to Hackettstown.
Most likely a Gladstone train because Gladstone trains are always a 3-car set of MU's, either three, single-units connected, or a married pair and a single unit.
I have personally seen one going westbound at Orange Station led by an ALP44 around 5:30pm on a Saturday.
Refurbished Comet II's are popping up on the NEC "clubbed in" with Comet IV coaches. These are not very rare.
The Comet V was ordered to replace the Comet I fleet, :(, and replace some older push-pulls so you'll see the Hoboken Division lines filled with them in the near future.
I saw a trainset of Comet V's at Elizabeth Station on Oct 14th.
This past Friday (11/1) I rode a six car consist of Comet V's on Coast Line train # 3240 from Matawan to New York. Later that same day, I rode a six car consist of Comet V's on Montclair Train #6242 from Upper Montclair to Newark Broad Street.
I only have one question - Would you enter the subway blindfolded?
That's exactly what a group of young adults did this evening at 66th St. One seeing eyedog (it has two legs, not four) for a small group of 4 people. There were at least 3 seeing eyedogs guiding the blind through the turnstiles and down the underpass to the Uptown Plat. I'm scratching my head and wonder what the hell is going on here?!?
A Cleaner mentioned this was a Fraternity. Great! Will they do Stupid Human Tricks next?
-Stef
A dog with only two legs? THAT'S CRAZY! I'm Brian Fellow!
--Brian
A dog with only two legs? THAT'S CRAZY! I'm Brian Fellow!
I think he meant it that another person (not a dog) was leading them. That makes me think this may be some kind of college thing, although it could be a person leading real blind people. The thought scares me either way. If they are not really blind, and it is just a college thing, they would not be used to walking around the subway and not being able to see. All you need is one bad move and someone is on the tracks in front of a train. At least real blind people know their other senses better, and know better how to walk around, not knowing how to see. Either way though it's a scary thought.
Maybe it was a serious college experiment. To give students an idea what it is like to be blind and entering the subway system.
I had an experience like that 3 months ago. I had an operation on my foot and told to stay off it for several weeks. On Sunday mornings I wanted to attend Mass at my church 2 blocks away. I did not want to watch it in TV. So I borrowed a wheelchair. One Sunday I tried going to Church on my own. I realised how uneven the sidewalk is. How difficult to go on and off the curbs. How curved the streets are. Crowned? And in general how difficult it is to get around whereas before I never gave it a second thought.
What all of us, who have no handicaps, take advantage of is the fact that we have no handicaps, until we fall on a situation like you had. Now imagine that same wheelchair situation and add the subway to the mix. That is some scary stuff. I really give someone credit, who is in a wheelchair, and does their best to get around. It's not easy.
Not easy at all. I read a TA booklet a few years back about disabled travel. If someone in a wheelchair is going to JFK via subway, They are to take the A train to Mott Ave and then take the train back to Howard Beach to take advantage of the handicapped exit.
And then there are the wonderful cases of elevators that remain dead for months at a time.
And then there are the wonderful cases of elevators that remain dead for months at a time.
Or the new ones that take years to install.
Many (many) years ago (when I was in the Navy) we did a similar thing on board ship. They shut off all of the lights and you had to 'escape' from your berthing and or work space safely. It is not as easy as you think.
Elias
>>> I'm scratching my head and wonder what the hell is going on here?!? <<<
It could be some group trying to raise awareness of just how poorly New York subways provide for the visually handicapped. Or possibly orientation for workers who will be working with blind people to give them a "day in the life" experience of their clients.
Tom
Or just some college fraternity nonsense.
If both people were blindfolded, I'd agree.
Hazings in the subway can only lead to somebody getting 3 days off
>>> Hazings in the subway can only lead to somebody getting 3 days off <<<
Why?? No MTA personnel were involved.
Tom
Excuse me? I totally missed that.
-Stef
Hazing-
SNIFF, SNIFF. Too much steel dust up my nostrils. I must be seeing and hearing things....LOL!
-Stef
I was talking about the time a crew gets off when their train hits a person.
I think he means whoever was working at the booth and let them in is probably going to be suspended.
Atleast did the (human) DOG pay it's fare...
Oh Yea! I'll try not to go OT here, but the DOG definitely paid it's fare and didn't bark once, didn't mark it's territory, or do anything dastardly (Once in a while they do).
Good One.......
-Stef
There are three large mosaics at the Times Square complex by Jack Beal, Jacob Lawrence and Roy Lichtenstein. My absolute favorite is Jack Beal's "The Return of Spring". Here's a link to an image of the work:
Jack Beal mosaic at Times Square
It has been up since September 2001 and seems to have attracted very little press attention. I'm not sure if it was unveiled after the World Trade Center horror.
I just love it. It's very realistic and the colors are very rich and warm. I tell people that the kid on the bike is a younger heypaul. The three workmen bending over a hole seem like The Three Wise Men. From what I've read, the work has a strong influence from Greek mythology. There's a young women in the picture carrying flowers who is supposed to be Persephone, whoever that is.
I've had my eye on it since last year. At first, I had a hard time finding it, during all the work that has been going on in the complex. It's located at 41st St. & 7th Ave, accessible from the middle stairway of the #1,2 & 3 platforms. It is also along the route to the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
Oddly, there is no plaque identifying the artist or the title of the work. It is lit up quite well with spotlights though.
I'm curious how other people find this mural.
Thank you for the link. That is one of my favorite pieces of subway artwork.
David... I'm glad to hear someone else has noticed it and likes it... Have you ever seen mention of it in the newspaper?... The MTA does acknowledge it on the #1 line station arts guide...
I've never seen mention of it anywhere (except here). I didn't even know the artist or title until your post came along. The other artwork at Times Square doesn't do anything for me, despite the hype.
I also like this mural at 36th Street in Brooklyn:
David... If you want to read an interpretation of the Jack Beal mosaic, click on the 6th entry Mosaici a New York City on this Google Search Results page. Click on "Translate this page" if your Italian is not up to speed. The translation is garbled but gives a sense of the mural.
jack beal
I like the 3 murals in the 36th Street Brooklyn station also. I ran into them a couple of years while riding the rails with BMTman and company. The artist is Owen Smith, who did the mural inside the Kawasaki 142's. His work has a nice 30's look.
The other two murals at Times Square don't do much for me either. Jacob Lawrence's work is too abstract or expressionistic for my literal sense. Roy Lichtenstein's work is a little too futuristic for me. Although there are two interesting items about Lichtenstein. He referred to Philip Copp's "Silver Connection" for details on the design of the "42" in the mural. And really neat is the fact that Lichtenstein deferred the grant for his art work, which allowed the money to be used to fund Jack Beal and Jacob Lawrence. That was a very classy thing to do.
Paul, thanks for the info on Lichtenstein regarding Phil Copp, and the grant deferment.
Definitely one of my favorite art installations in the subway.
As long as we're sharing photos...
Thanks David... That gives a much clearer shot of the younger Heypaul on the bicycle.
It still amazes me that there is nothing by the mural identifying the artist.
Much better. I'll take yours over mine any day.
Beautiful. I hope some of the people that were criticizing how New York's system was in decay, and had ugly uninteresting stations in the other thread a few weeks ago are taking note.
>>> Here's a link to an image of the work: <<<
Your link is to a canvas, that I guess the artist worked from to create the mural in the subway. What size is the mural? I liked what I saw, and would like to see all three of them. Is this a new artistic upgrade to the subway. Will there be more mosaic murals in other stations? This one is conservative when compared to the Rivera murals of the ‘30s, which of course were meant to be political messages to the illiterate under class.
Tom
Tom... The size of the Jack Beal mosaic is about 6 ft x 21 ft... It is large... The artist's rendition on canvas was put on computer and the computer controlled the cutting of the 1,000,000+ pieces of this mosaic using 1,000 colors...
The Arts for Transit Program is at least 10 years old. They have a webpage which shows the artwork on each of the subway lines, station by station.
listing of artwork
The Arts for Transit program is a well designed and classy operation.
Thanks for that link! I never knew that existed. Now I will know which stations to pay more attention to when I am out with my camera on the subway next time.
Thanks for that link! I never knew that existed.
I mean the link of course, I never knew they had all of that on the MTA website. Before when I would see subway murals, it was just a matter of finding them by accident. Now I know which stations to look in for them a little better.
Persephone was the daughter of Demeter, the goddess of the harvest.
She was betrothed to Hades, the god of death and moved with him to the underworld, leading Demeter to be very sad and thus plunging the world into a permanent winter.
Eventually, Hades was convinced to allow Persephone to stay with her mother on Mt. Olympus, but only for 6 months out of the year.
And that is how the ancient Greeks explained the seasons.
I also like that mural.
Jack Beal has also done other public works, such as those for the US Dept of Labor in Wash., DC. I've never seen those in situ, but the are reproduced, along with many other of his works in this book:
Jack Beal
by Eric Shanes
c. 1993
ISBN:1-55595039-6
He is known for very dynamic compostions that direct the eye rather eloquently around the picture plane. He was more well known in the '60s and '70s. His figures sometimes have an odd, cartoon-like quality and he uses very vibrant colors. This combined with his dynamic arrangements lend his work well to public art.
Urbanlens... Thanks for the information about the Jack Beal book... I haven't seen any of his other work but I am drawn to the intensity of colors as well as the theme... It is available used for $20 on up... Is the book worth a look??... It doesn't have to have subway themes, but are there other intense kind of scenes??... Thanks again...
Only worth a look if you are into that type of art, it doesn't have any subway themes or anything. He has done many portrait commissions (one in the national portrait gallery in DC), as well as a few other public murals, in addition to showing at galleries, etc. You may just want to check it out at the library.
Yes, I've seen it on several occasions, either rushing to the Broadway lines or the Flushing lines and admittingly, I nver gave it much thought until this post. Since it has so many references to Greek mythology, I now look at it at a whole new light. It truly is magnificent. I wonder how long it took for Mr. Beal to paint it?
CPSTP... If you mean painting the actual mural on the wall, he didn't. If I understand the process correctly, he executed a painting and then it was translated to colored glass. Then it was assembled by the mosaic people. If I recall correctly, it took 2500 manhours to assemble it.
I see; that sure is a long time... BTW, it's CPCTC.
What a refreshing change to the mix of posts you bring.
Glad to have you back here my friend !
And judging by all the responces, it's what many have been craving.
Thanks Thurston... Despite my occasional tantrums to the contrary, I have missed the activity and people of Subtalk. In the time that I've been away, I've become aware of what a treasure of mosaics and artistry went into the early subway and the work being done now by Arts for Transit, as well as Music Under New York. I am happy to find other people here who enjoy this side of the subways.
On a personal note, we are all very lucky to have you the honorable and good friend that you are.
Over the last year, I've gotten interested in subway mosaics. Over the last month or so, I've been amusing myself doing a copy of the old TIMES SQUARE sign that is on the wall by the exit near the brdige across the shuttle tracks.
I took some pictures with my camcorder, measured the whole sign out, and proceeded to do a full size replica using poster board, which I either colored blue or white, and cut into 5/8" squares. Well I did that for most of the TIMES part of the sign, and have been cheating to get the rest of the sign done. It is not done as I have to paste in the "S" in SQUARE and do some restyling of the "Q" and "R".
TIMES SQUARE sign
There are over 2500 pieces of cut-up paper, which has kept me quite content in the day treatment program. Aside from showing off what approximately $250,000 of your taxpayer money has accomplished, I am really in awe of how the tile workers back 100 years ago accomplished this and other extraordinary works.
Are there any documents which describe the mosaic work done on the original subway? How did they do this? Did they cut each tile as they worked??
I know that the Jack Beal mosaic, as well as most of the modern ones are not done by hand, but with the assistance of a computer.
There are a couple of books describing the ceramics and mosaics found in the subway... I don't have either of them so I can't comment on the specifics of what they might contain, but I would guess that they are available through the library. They are Susan Tunick's Ceramic Ornament in the New York City Subway System and Lee Stookey's Subway Ceramics: A History and Iconography, both of which are referenced on theSubway Bibliography: Art and Design page of this website.
Or our resident mosaic expert, Wayne Whitehorne, might have the answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although it has nothing on the construction of the mosaics, there's also Paintings by Squire Vickers, 1872-1947, Designing Architect of the New York Subway System, a catalog from a 1992 exhibition of his works with a brief essay on his work, including BMT tile bands and historical plaques, and the architecture of IND substations.
39 years ago, on November 3, 1963 car 7407 pulled into Irvington Car House and closed out the 104 year history of Baltimore's streetcars.
7407 is alive and well today at The Baltimore Streetcar Museum
Are you guys having an appropriate celebration at the museum?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most likely not.
It will probably be announced on all the cars operating today.
Remember, the anniversary means little to the visitors. Most of them either weren't around in 1963 or lived in an area that lost its cars earlier.
We will do something in 2016, which will be the 50th. We did something for the 25th.
Remember, I was there. I lived it. The world ended at 6:34 AM for us. For the rest, the world ended in Dallas on Novermber 22nd.
I don't know if the word 'celebration' is a good one to use; I don't think streetcar abandonments are anything anybody here wants to celebrate. I guess I think they should be commemorated, but in any case it's unfortunate Baltimore did abandon...
However, hopefully the Baltimore Streetcar Museum doesn't follow this method of operation:
October(?) 2000:
10th anniversary of the retirement of the TTC's original Gloucster subway cars. The Toronto Transportation Society did nothing to commemorate the event. Not even a mention of it was made in the newsletter or at any of the meetings. I don't know if anything was done at Halton.
December (specifically, December 8) 2000:
5th anniversary of the retirement of the TTC's last revenue service PCC cars. The Toronto Transportation Society did nothing to commemorate the event. Not even a mention of it was made in the newsletter or at any of the meetings. I don't know if anything was done at Halton.
Mid 2003:
10th anniversary of the second and truly final abandonment of the TTC's trolley buses. We'll see what happens when the appropriate time comes around.
-Robert King
True, "celebration" is a lousy choice of words, "commemoration" is much better... thanks. At least Toronto still has cars, though... would that everyone else did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, fortunately the TTC still runs lots of stretcars and it is too bad that so many places abandoned.
Ignore the little rant, it's just damn fustrating that both the local fan club and the local museum are both such basketcases that events which are noteworthy at the very least, if not outright important, aren't commemorated or even mentioned.
-Robert King
One thing intrigues me: how did Baltimore arrive at a 5' 4" track gauge?
Required by the original franchise to the Baltimore City Pasenger Railway Company in 1859. The idea seemed to be "If we allow a private company to rip up the public streets to lay tracks on them, then the spacing of the rails should match the wheel spacing of the private carriages."
This idea seemed to be popular among city councils, and may be the reason for Pennsylvania Broad Gauge (5' 2 1/2").
The Baltimore gauge is actually 5 feet 4 and 1/2 inches.
Once the gauge was established, all street railway companies in Baltimore were required to use it.
Since when cable came to Batimore, the companies used their largest horsecars as cable trailers, and when electrification came, the largest horsecars were the ones first converted.
Once the gauge was established, it became the standard.
Thanks. I stand corrected on the gauge itself.
The Fire Brigades' Union Executive will meet tomorrow to decide whether to go ahead with their planned strikes. It is highly expected this will happen - the dates are 6-14 November, 22-30 November, 4-12 December, 16-24 December. This will for reasons of safety entail significant disruption on the London Underground:
BAKERLOO LINE: No service South of Waterloo (Lambeth North and E&C closed), Regent's Park and Edgware Rd also closed.
CENTRAL LINE: Holland Park, Queensway and Lancaster Gate closed.
DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAILWAY: Normal service.
EAST LONDON LINE: Wapping closed, Shadwell closed Rush Hours only.
JUBILEE LINE: Normal service.
MET/DIS/H&C/CIRCLE: Normal service.
NORTHERN LINE:
Edgware Branch: Hampstead and Belsize Pk closed, Chalk Farm closed Rush Hours only.
Barnet Branch: Tufnell Pk closed.
Charing X Branch: Mornington Crescent and Goodge St closed.
Bank Branch: Borough and E&C closed.
Southern End: Kennington closed.
PICCADILLY LINE: Gloucester Rd, Covent Garden, Russell Sq and Caledonian Rd closed, Holloway Rd closed Rush Hours only.
VICTORIA LINE: Normal service.
Many of these closures aren't too significant - no-one will miss Covent Garden or Edgware Rd (Bakerloo) - but I don't want to be around Elephant & Castle when this happens! Also, I wonder how short turn Northern Line trains will work with Kennington closed.
Don't tell me they'll be asking for your shoe size, among other things, if you call them.:) (If you're a Monty Python fan, you know what I'm referring to.)
Why is 57th the wide crosstown street when Columbus Circle and the park are at 59th?
And why did the IRT build a station at East 59th Street instead of East 57th Street?
I betcha Kevin Walsh would know something about this. Maybe it has something to do with the old reservoirs in Central Park?
The Second Ave. El had a stop at 57th and I think the 6th Ave el ran along 57th to meet up with the the 9th Ave. el.
The 6th Avenue El ran along 53rd Street to 9th Avenue and there was a branch that stayed on 6th Avenue and ended on 58th Street.
Also, 59th and 60th Streets (58th and 59th on the west side) had streetcar service, but 57th Street didn't.
Maybe 57th St is Haunted!
57th Street is a very classy street, somewhat like 5th Avenue. Maybe they wanted to keep streetcars off it, as they did 5th Avenue.
>>>I betcha Kevin Walsh would know something about this. <<<
Abrade the lamp and the genie appears.
I have also wondered why 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 72nd etc. are the main streets. I wonder how they got chosen. They're not exactly the most popular numbers, like 10, 25, 50, etc. I emailed ed Boland, the fyi guy in the Times and he didn't answer.
It might have something to do with the East and Hudson River ferries. But were the ferries there before the street grid was laid out and built?
Does anyone know why they picked these streets?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did the wide streets predate or postdate the Central Park transverses?
That might give us a clue about 79th and 86th -- but it doesn't account for 65th/66th, 72nd, 96th (the transverse is actually at 97th), or 106th.
A quick googling of "Manhattan" "street grid" 1811 indicates that, while the grid was laid out in 1811, the actual purchase of land by the city to create the rights of way for the streets didn't start till 1824, and only slowly worked its way uptown. The 104th (?) St block association says their street didn't actually exist till the 1880s.
Therefore the decisions of which streets were to be the wide ones weren't necessariy made at the beginning or all at once.
My guess is that the location of Broadway was a factor in the choosing of 14th, 23rd, 34th, possibly 42nd, and 72nd.
The city did have to pay for the land to build the streets. So if at some places an expensive house or two was already in the way, a wide street might have become too expensive.
Another totally wild guess. The UN used to be the stockyards. Maybe that's why 42nd is where it is rather than a few blocks north. Maybe ugly industry of some kind also made a wide 50th Street less useful.
Various postings do say that natural landmarks weren't an issue. They blasted away a lot of outcroppings to enforce the grid and make it easy to build houses.
>>>My guess is that the location of Broadway was a factor in the choosing of 14th, 23rd, 34th, possibly 42nd, and 72nd. <<'
That seems to make sense...14th crosses Broadway at Union Square, where it meets Park/4th Avenue Avenue. Interestingly, the name "Union Square" predates the street grid since the road which would later become Broadway and the Post Road met here. As the street grid was laid out, the Post Road fell into disuse and was demapped by the 1840s. The Union Square name remains.
23rd crosses Broadway at 5th Avenue.
34th crosses Bway at 6th Avenue.
42nd Street is interesting, it doesn't cross Bway at 7th. The two streets cross each other at a narrow angle and the intersection comes from 43rd-45th Streets. So 42nd street is an odd case.
Broadway crosses 59th Street at 8th Avenue and 72nd at Columbus (9th) Avenue. 57th Street's importance was probabaly an unrelated development.
Bway crosses Amsterdam (10th) Avenue at 106th Street and it indeed is wider than its brother streets. Above that the pattern fades. Interestingly, 125th Street west of Morningside wasn't always 125th. that section was previously known as Manhattan Street.
The only place where there seems to be an exception to the "wide streets where Broadway intersects an Avenue" rule is at 64th-65th Streets where Bway meets Columbus (9th) Avenue. Perhaps this cross street was deemed too close to 59th Street to deserve traffic, despite the 66th Street Transverse Road.
Necessary transit content:
You don't think of NYC cross streets as being shrouded under els. But 23rd, 42nd, 53rd and 110th as well as others all had els along them at some point.
www.forgotten-ny.com
IIRC, 34th Street did too, a spur of the 3rd Ave El to the ferry.
--Mark
>>That seems to make sense...14th crosses Broadway at Union Square, where it meets Park/4th Avenue Avenue. Interestingly, the name "Union Square" predates the street grid
since the road which would later become Broadway and the Post Road met here. As the street grid was laid out, the Post Road fell into disuse and was demapped by the 1840s.
The Union Square name remains. <<<
I should clarify...the Post Road was part of the Bowery north to Union Square then it was in Broadway's path NW to where 23rd street is now. There it took a northeast turn. That northern part of it fell into disuse.
The widening of Broadway btwn. 22nd and 23rd Strrets marks the point where the Post Road took its northeastern path.
There, I feel better now, except for the bronchitis and the coughing.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I should clarify...the Post Road was part of the Bowery north to Union Square then it was in Broadway's path NW to where 23rd street is now. There it took a northeast turn. That northern part of it fell into disuse. The widening of Broadway btwn. 22nd and 23rd Strrets marks the point where the Post Road took its northeastern path.
Interesting, where did it go after turning northeast? Was it a fork in the road with the current Broadway on the left and the "disused" side on the right?
The post road travelled a winding route along approximately 3rd Avenue.
1811 Street Grid Map
The above map goes up to 67th Street. All of the wide crosstown streets are already intact, it also shows two parks, the Parade (in the middle between 23rd and 34th) and the Market Place in Alphabet City covering the Tompkins Square Park area.
You can faintly make out the old roads to be removed, including Broadway above Union Square.
1807 Map
This map is easier to make out, but it shows only 14th, 23rd and 34th as future crosstown streets, above there, it goes by 10.
So in 1857 they already decided to make 42nd and 57th wide streets.
23rd and 34th presumably are based on the parade ground, which was already firmly established then. But why 42nd and 57th?
I meant in 1811 etc., etc.
The Parade Ground wasn't firmly established, it was a proposal for a park and was never executed.
Very interesting. Thanks for posting that. Actually, for the most part, the real alignment of Broadway (Bloomingdale Road) seems to have it's basic original alignment up to about Cathedral Parkway - 110th Street, where currently it basically takes over the route of West End Ave-11th ave, but the old map shows it's original alignment continuing west a bit more and then zig-zagging back and forth over the current Broadway (11th Ave on the map) before heading sort of northeast. The real alignment of the Bloomingdale Road (Broadway) seems to be lost north of 110th.
Traces of BloomingdaleRoad (Broadway)'s old path can be made out in Harlem. Both Hamilton Place and Old Broadway follow the route of the original road.
Generally speaking, older roads that defy overall street grids are there because there was substantial property along them--or big shots who wouldn't move when the time came to close the road.
I wish I knew the year(s) when Broadway was straightened to its present route in Harlem...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would think around 1900 when the IRT built their line up there.
"Broadway crosses 59th Street at 8th Avenue and 72nd at Columbus (9th) Avenue. 57th Street's importance was probabaly an unrelated development.
Bway crosses Amsterdam (10th) Avenue at 106th Street and it indeed is wider than its brother streets."
Broadway crosses Columbus at 66th and Amsterdam at 72nd. It merges with West End at 106th.
But the actual avenue crossings are a block or so off in some of those cases -- 24th, 71st, 107th. And given 72nd and 106th, why the seemingly arbitrary choices of 79th, 86th, and 96th, with gaps of 7, 7, 10, and 10, rather than (say) 80th, 89th, and 97th?
"Why is 57th the wide crosstown street when Columbus Circle and the park are at 59th?"
The street grid far predates the park. Perhaps the land from 57th to 59th would have cost to much because it was already built up, but there wasn't any need to make the S boundary of the park 72nd St.
"And why did the IRT build a station at East 59th Street instead of East 57th Street?"
Can't answer that one for sure, but it probably has to do with what they decided was reasonable spacing. It's probably linked to why there is no stop at 72nd. 42, 50, 57, 65, 72, 79, 86 may have been one more stop than they thought was needed.
"And why did the IRT build a station at East 59th Street instead of East 57th Street?"
Can't answer that one for sure, but it probably has to do with what they decided was reasonable spacing.
I guess the same reason they made a stop at 33rd street on the original IRT line instead of 34th Street - I guess it wasn't known which would be the major street? Although the street grid laying out the wider streets must have been in effect when they decided on 59th or 33rd instead of 57th or 34th.
A few years later when they did the southern extension on the west side line, they did choose 34th (even though Penn station is actually between 31 and 33rd Streets), but they still did choose 59th on the on the East Side extension at the same time.
NO.
At the time the original IRT was built, 34th Street was already built up as a wide crosstown street.
The reason a stop was built at 33rd probably has to do with the difficulty of building a stop along the Park Avenue Tunnel.
"The reason a stop was built at 33rd probably has to do with the difficulty of building a stop along the Park Avenue Tunnel."
In addition, Park and 34th is considerably higher in elevation than Park and 33rd, so the station would have been much deeper. That issue doesn't apply further west.
Correct, I didn't think of the Park Ave Tunnel, which is right there.
I wanted this thread to degenerate into a general discussion of why Manhattan crosstown streets are where they are. Why the 15 block gaps from 42 to 57, then 57 to 72, then 7 blocks to 79 and then 86?
Why are 14th, 23rd, 34th and 42nd the wide ones (9, 11, 8 blocks apart).
Don't tell me it's because of Broadway, because original plans called for the elimination of the Bloomingdale Road, and that doesn't explain 42nd and 57th.
Why the 15 block gaps from 42 to 57, then 57 to 72, then 7 blocks to 79 and then 86?
Why are 14th, 23rd, 34th and 42nd the wide ones (9, 11, 8 blocks apart).
If I were approaching this question with no foreknowledge whatever, I would consider:
What were the locations of aboriginal trails?
What physical properties might have encouraged or discouraged original street locations? (swamps, dense woods, streams, rock formations, valleys, passes)?
Where were the earliest stage or streetcar franchises?
Where were farm roads located?
What prominent individuals had interests which encouraged or discouraged development along particular corridors?
Some curiosities are easily answered. Why are there Brighton stations at both Beverley and Cortelyou Roads? The answer may not be totally obvious, but neither is it obscure.
What physical properties might have encouraged or discouraged original street locations? (swamps, dense woods, streams, rock formations, valleys, passes)?
That didn't seem to be too much of an impediment for the Manhattan Grid system though. They flattened hills, filled in ponds and streams, wen straight through vallies, and removed rock formations all to keep the grid system intact. (although there are some spots in upper Manhattan where they had to give in).
went straight through vallies
How stupid. "vallies". Where the hell did that come from? Of course I meant "valleys".
Some curiosities are easily answered. Why are there Brighton stations at both Beverley and Cortelyou Roads? The answer may not be totally obvious, but neither is it obscure.
OK. I'll bite. Why are these two stations so close together?
:-) Andrew
Some curiosities are easily answered. Why are there Brighton stations at both Beverley and Cortelyou Roads? The answer may not be totally obvious, but neither is it obscure.
OK. I'll bite. Why are these two stations so close together?
I believe because powerful business/real estate interests at Beverley and Cortelyou both wanted stations.
Avenue C was the more important road, with trolley service, while the Prospect Park South development wanted its own station at Avenue B, which had no trolley service and was not a main commercial street.
And one of the developers had family connections to the railroad.
Exactly.
They are close together (about 75 feet, i go there every day, my schools on cortelyou and east 9th)because they serve different neiborhoods, beverly the nicer, cortelyou everyone else- also most stations on the Q are close example: aves h, j ,and m.
Ditmas School? Intermdiate School? It was a brand-new Junior High when I went there. I also went to PS 139, which was old when I went there. You can see it in this picture:
Actually no, i goto school on east ninth between ditmas and cortelyou
Which school is that?
>>Which school is that?<<
Must mean Ditmas J.H.S. 62, as it was called back in the mid 60's when I went there. Graduated June 1967.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was at JHS62, also, Bill, right after it opened, 1957-1960.
I think Mike from Midwood was saying it wasn't JHS62 he went to.
Small world - I graduated from Ditmas in 1967 too!!!
Wow you went there? Me too went to Ditmas but I graduated back in 1998. I had no idea that a few bustalkers went and graduated from there :-)
>>> I also went to PS 139, which was old when I went there. <<<
And I suppose that is you on left, running to beat the tardy bell? :-)
Tom
No, I'm running to catch the Brighton train to Brighton Beach "on the hook." :)
Disagree. Neck Road and Ave U are close. Maybe Avenues J and H. But not the others.
--Mark
Maybe Avenues J and H [are close]
...illustrates how there are different ways to define "close." Because of the LIRR right-of-way, you have to walk a block-and-a-half over to E14 (Rugby Rd) at Avenue J and then back again to get station-to-station.
Compare to the "close" stations of 14 and 18 on 7th Avenue, where it is a straight line of wide sidewalk between the two.
It is more like 700 feet. There is only one block (for signals) between the two stations. Look at http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/R405.jpg to see how close they are. Also look at http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics2/nycsta25.jpg.
Even better. If it were only 75 feet between stations, then 1 car would be between the stations while the other 7 would be in the other station.
Nice shot!
Let's not forget that once upon a time the stations were not so close together as now. Five-car trains were run during the early part of the 20th century. The longer trains that ran later on required extension of the platforms. Hence the north end of Cortelyou and the south end of Beverley are closer together now than what they once were.
But the station houses are the same distance apart as always.
During the '50s there was talk in the newspapers that one of the two stations would be eliminated to "speed up" local service. When the TA extended the Brighton Line platforms for 10 car R-types in the '60s, a lot of railfans thought that the stations would be extended toward each other and connected so that Beverley and Cortelyou would be entrancess on a new station. Other than obvious logic, I don't know why we thought so--i.e., whether there was any firm plan.
Anyway, this obviously didn't happen.
You said not to mention Broadway, but it does seem to coincidently have a play in it. Where 14, 23rd, 34th, etc meet, you do have the wider streets. But if they did originally plan to eliminate what is now Broadway, who decided, and why, 23rd, etc should be a wide street? If they were planning to do it neatly, they should have chosen ever 10 blocks, or every 15 blocks or even some random number, like every 9 blocks. If the grid was made way before there was any kind of real development, which it was, I wonder why they did choose the wide streets the way they did, in seemingly no pattern.
Maybe because of the concentation of business along Broadway at Union Square(14th) Madison Square(23rd) Herald Square(34th) Times Square(42nd) and Columbus Circle(59th) all subway stops and 2-way streets from east to west, except 59th from 8th ave to 5th ave.
I think we've got a chicken and egg question here. Assuming a high concentration of business at those points, were the streets made wide for them, or did they locate where the streets were wide?
True, but I think 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, etc were made to be wider streets when they originally made the grid system in Manhattan in the 1800's. That was way before any of the businesses along Broadway were even around. I believe even 42nd Street was still farmland when they put the original Gtrand Central there.
Good points. I guess I was referring to the main streets as they related to turn of the century with the advent of the automobile and subway system.
Good points. I guess I was referring to the main streets as they related to turn of the century with the advent of the automobile and subway system.
First, I think the Abbreviation for Off Topic should be Off T, since OT could also mean ON topic.
Second, I'm sure a lot of you know where I got the 57 Varieties from, but does anybody know what Heinz 57 Varieties were? Surely they can't be making 57 different flavors of ketchup!
P.S. I know the answer
Heinz makes a lot more than just ketchup.
While riding a NY elevated train in 1892, Mr Heinz saw an advertising card for 21 styles of shoes. He liked the idea, got off the train at the 28th St station, and started planning his own advertising slogan,
He settled on Heinz 57 even though his products numbered more than 60 at the time.
Pickles, o porcine one... pickled pigs' feet not included :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nothing like the 'flava' of true green 'TA monkey oil' to liven up a salad, pasta or pizza. Everything flows out (egress) smoothly just like it went in...relieves friction of door panels too. CI Peter
Supposely "57" was a number that Heinz chose to promote how many types of ketchups they had. If there were 57 kinds, who knows? It was a promotional stunt in those days.
Actually, "Heinz 57" meant 57 varieties of canned beans ... aren't ya glad you're not downwind? :)
Fifty-seven varieties doesn't mean 57 varieties of ketchup, it means 57 varieties of food products in general. There are only three varieties of Heinz ketchup, regular, hot, and low-sodium, but there are far more than 57 varieties of Heinz pickles, Heinz sauces, Heinz soups, etc. In fact, if you count everything Heinz and all its divisions and subsidiaries make, there are something like 1,300 varieties, including 108 varieties of baby food, 60 kinds of pickles, and so on.
The number 57 has mystical significance to the Heinz company, but it has never had much to do with reality. The slogan was invented by the company's founder, Henry J. Heinz, in 1892 while he was cruising around on the elevated in New York one day. Whilst reading the car cards on the ceiling, his eye alighted on the slogan "21 styles of shoes." Heinz could recognize genius when he saw it. Cogitating briefly, he soon conceived the immortal words "57 varieties," whereupon he got off the train and set about plastering the nation with the now-famous pickle-plus-number logo. The one problem with this scheme was that at the time the company was manufacturing more than 60 varieties. However, Heinz stuck with 57, for what his biographer describes as "occult reasons."
Heinz, as may already be evident, was something of a character. He started off bottling horseradish in a little town near Pittsburgh in 1869 (ketchup did not arrive on the scene until 1876). He made a major selling point of the fact that he put his product in clear glass bottles, thus demonstrating that he did not adulterate his sauce with turnips or other false vegetables, as his competitors did.
Once Heinz hit on the notion of "57 varieties," he constructed a number of hideous advertising signs at various strategic locales around the country. One, which was six stories high, was located at 23rd and 5th Avenue in New York City and dazzled tourists with a 40-foot-long electrified pickle. Heinz also built an exhibition hall in Atlantic City on a pier that extended 900 feet out into the ocean; another monstrous pickle, this one 70 feet tall, perched heroically on the end.
After a few more demonstrations of this style of architecture, the citizenry became alarmed lest Heinz encumber every landmark in the Republic with giant pickles. When a rumor (unfounded, it appears) got out that he had purchased Lookout Mountain near Chattanooga, Tennesee, in order to scrape off the side and sculp a pickle of unprecedented proportions in the native granite, or whatever it is they have out there, there was a general uproar, with one partisan threatening to pickle Heinz 57 ways if he tried it.
The Heinz people are still quite attached to the number 57. The phone number at corporate headquarters in Pittsburgh is 237-5757, and the address is P.O. Box 57. One of their salesman was a player for the Pittsburgh Steelers at one time, and you'll never guess what his number was. It is enough to make you want to swear off ketchup forever.
I'm pickled tink with this story.
Here's another trivia question - do you know why the "57" is etched near the center of the ketchup bottle?
--Mark
I am very intrested in obtaining used items/memrobilia from the NYC Subway only. I live in NJ and go into the City often. I have visited the Store in Grand Central and found a few things there. Doe anyone know what is inside of the Times Square and Brooklyn Heights one? Does anyone know if they sell this stuff at the place where they dismantle the Redbirds/ Subway cars. Any help of where I can obtain these things will be apprciated! Thanks!
Brian Pawelko
bpawelko@comcast.net
Though nothing is listed right now, keep an eye on:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/materiel/collectsales/index.html.
And there is always eBay...
It sounded good until I read the "Please Note" section:
All sales are subject to $50.00 minimum processing fee.
How much do these things cost if the processing fee is a minimum of $50.00? When they used to hold the Tag Sale/Auction, you could buy signs, etc for as little as $10.00. Well, even if you think that the prices went up a bit in the last 10 years, how much could all this stuff cost if the processing fee alone is $50.00?
Try heypaul's apartment
Yea whats up with that I want some nice stuff but if its 50 alone I cant afford that. 50 bucks for what the whole subway car. jezze.
I'll sell ya da whole woiks for 25 smackaroos....how dat for ya...
Try Alan Zelazo at............ subwayal@aol.com
Drop him an e-mail and inquire what he might have for you. He usually auctions roll signs and other subway stuff on ebay.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would agree with that one, I've done business with Al on numerous occasions on stuff that I've purchased on e-bay.....Always professional, always a positive feedback.
Mark
How long can these els last? How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?
How long can these els last?
As long as they keep them in good repair, they can still last a long time. Over the last decade or two, most have them have been kept in fairly good repair, and on many of them, like the Broadway el in Brooklyn they have been redoing the stations (quite nicely also). The condition of most of the els are much better than they have been in years (although the Livonia El does look a bit 70's-ish in condition and could use some paint). They will get to the ones that need help.
How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?
"Ain't" going to happen. While at some far off date that our great great great great great granchildren may see, they may replace some of them with subway, open cuts or embankments are just not going to happen. I'd like to see them even try to put an embankement or open cut along Broadway/Brooklyn, Westchester Ave, or McDonald Ave, etc. That was only possible when Brooklyn was fairly rural place in the early part of the century. They could have built open cuts or emabnkements in some parts of the Bronx when they originally built the els there, as many of them were built through farmland, however they didn't, and it could never be done now.
Replacement subways, on the other hand are possible, but unlikely because there is no funding available, and it is probably more important to expand service to areas that have no subway service, than to replace perfectly usable els with subway. (That is one of the mistakes that were done replacing the Fulton El with the Fulton Subway in the 30's. The money they spent on that would have been much better spent somewhere else where they really need subway service like in many areas of Queens or Brooklyn where there is NO service).
And just look at 2nd Ave in Manhattan. They have been trying to build a much needed subway under that avenue since the 30's and it's still not there!
"How long can these els last? How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?"
What would be the impetus for doing that? They are well maintained.
The neighborhoods have adjusted to them. Open cuts would destroy the neighborhood by eliminating the busy shopping street underneath.
With proper maintenance and care, the els can last for at least another fifty to one hundred years. Thank goodness many were overbuilt late in the 19th and the early 20th centuries, so the structures continue to serve their users well.
Cases in point:
In NYC, the J train stretch between Cresecent Street and Alabama Avenue was built in 1893 when steam trains ruled, and is still in daily use. This is the oldest portion of the NYC subway system still in daily use - it predates the "official" subway opening (last week was the 98th anniversary) by nine years! On the IRT, the #2/#5 line from 149th Street to Tremont Ave. opened in November 1904, and the #1 above Dyckman street dates from 1906-1908. These lines are still in 24/7 daily use.
In Chicago, the famous Loop L was opened in 1897 and still is a key link in the CTA system, carrying hundreds of trains daily.
Well if they were to tear the els down (VERY UNLIKELY!), then this will cause problems in the long run, look what happened when they tore down the Jamaica el in the late 70's-early 80's, the Archer subway only goes to Parsons Blvd instead of 168 St plus Jamaica went into deep decline and now its resurging. The system is far too small for the amount of passengers who ride the system; 3 million+ every day and the system has gotten slower. They need to:
Restore lost express services
Build the 2 Av subway
Build lines to eastern Queens
Build a line to Co-op City
There are more improvements and expansions out there but these would be most beneficial but there is not too much or any funding to make these projects possible.
One el that should NEVER be torn down is the Flushing el. The el makes the 7 what it is today. All the els are in fine shape although the Livonia el needs a little "help".
"How long can these els last?"
It depends on the el and how it was constructed. Over the course of the NYCT system history, there has really been a wide range of construction quality. A case in point is the differences between the 2nd and 3rd Avenue els.
Many of the els appear to be in worse shape than they really are due to neglect.
"How long before they tear them down and replace them with open cut and embankments?"
This is unlikely for the forseeable future. While it would improve many neighbourhoods, the limitted funds available for transit will be directed to maintaining existing service and providing service to new areas first.
Matt
From what I can gather, 1435, 1437, 1439, and 1440 were destroyed in the Union Square wreck. I also read that 1431, 1432, 1433, 1434, & 1438 is running as an odd linked set. That leaves the question of what happened to 1436? Was it too destroyed at Union Square, or is it in storage? Does anyone know?
Next Question:
1369 and 1370 were destroyed in the Fordham Road wreck. What has become of 1366, 1367, & 1368? Are those cars still on the property? If so are they still servicable? If so, has any consideration been given to converting 1368 to an operating car with a full width cab? If so it could become one of the shuttle sets.
Now that the T/O list has expired, will the TA have a provisional opportunity available? Because the next test is next year and people probably won't be called until the following year.
By law they can hire provisonaly (unless there is somthing in the contract), will they do so? Who knows.
It takes awhile to train(and a lot of money too) to train a Train Operator. Would YOU do that, train someone who may not pass the test with a high enough score to keep (though if your in the title provisonaly and you score 100% they can take you no matter the one and three rule) once the list came out?
I wouldn't take the chance.
Sometimes provi is good and sometimes provi is bad. It depends upon how much you need a new job and/or that special position. Many Car Inspectors were hired one year before me by personal interview and NO test. I put in many hours of study to prove in an interview that I knew something about subway control systems for signals and car equipment...passed both tests NEVER having an interview. Got M/F 7-3 RDOs S/S to boot which I have kept. The CIs with one year more service HAD to take and PASS exam # 0051. The top thirty percent are now permanent...seventy percent remain provisional at this time and the handful that failed are still working. 'Last hired first fired' has not been implemented yet. Being at the bottom of the list may be chancy but with attrition rates, retirements, promotions and resignations, life on the bottom can look better. I agree with Lou but if you want the position and your present employment offers nothing, GO FOR IT ! I did. CI Peter
There is smething going on funny with that list. Look thru the archives and you will see that in the past it was extended twice in the same year (or at least announced twice in the Chief).
There are also people 'in the pipe' and in the hiring plan.
Also provisionals will likely come from existing employees not from off the street.
The list has officialy been retired ,check the chief archives no extension has been made.Also provi T/O's are risky but if it will keep off the streeters from paying their dues I am open for inhouse Provi.
In the issue of the Chief 2 weeks ago it said T/O list #9058 was extended for another year
The next list will be a stinky one anyway. In 2004 at least 100 jobs will disappear maybe 150. Many people with 22-25 years cashed out already with the military bonus. Plus the TA was not in a hiring mood 25 years ago so there may not be a big pool of retirees in the pipe. Even the V extension if it goes thru may not add that many jobs.
I was looking at the pictures of the tandy PCC cars, and i realized that the doors and windows seemed to align on their high platform PCCs, and their weird Boxy cars.
1. Were these boxy cars rebuilds of PCCs?
2. How was this done?
3. Could it be undone?
4. where are the origins of the PCCs?, (I read in places that there were washington DC cars there, but Boston PCCs are in some pictures)
5. How many pccs are there?
6. Where are they now?
Here's a webpage with photos on the late, lamented Tandy subway.
Semi-short answers to your questions:
1. Yes, they were. The original 1960's modifications raised the doors to high platform and bodies wrapped in decorative stainless steel. The cars were equipped with controls on both ends and airconditioned.
2. The original bodies were cut down to the frames and rebuilt with a new shell in the late 70's.
3. No, it cannot. The original upper body shells were dumpstered.
4. Most were Washington DC air-electrics. There were some Boston early air-electrics bought for parts and a pair of Chicago rapid transit cars that had their origins as streetcars bought for parts as well. One of the Boston cars was converted for Tandy service.
5. They were numbered up to 7, but I don't know how many operated at any one time, probably just two or three. It was pretty short run.
6. All cars, parts, and all hardware are in storage. Everything is also already spoken for by several concerns.
It's too bad they closed down in September, as Ft. Worth has a light rail plan underway, they might only end up using the Tandy tunnel.
For the first time, on this site, never published anywhere, a picture of the Rebodied ex-DC Transit in the buff!!
As you can see, it not possible to reverse the body back to its PCC disigned.
Phil Hom
BTW, this web site has some GREAT photos of the Fort Worth Operation from the mid 70's during the transition from M&O Subway, Dillard's MetroLiner, and Tandy Center Subway.
The Greenberg show was at the Expo Center in Pennsauken (South Jersey) this weekend. The West Jersey Chapter NRHS had a table to display (and try to sell) our books (the Chapter is into writing and publishing railroad history books), and to maintain a presence to attract new members. We also give out some freebies, such as the Chapter’s former monthly publication, Crew Caller. On Saturday shortly after noon our table was being manned by Frank Kozempel and others, and an older gentleman (seventy something) was leafing through the Crew Callers, when he exclaimed “My picture’s in here!”
The June 1991 issue featured a story titled “The Shrewsbury Shuffle”, about some tricky freight handling on the “Back Road” by the Pemberton Branch local freight train. The story was written by Frank Kozempel and was accompanied by photographs of Penn Central GE 44-tonner #9999 shifting the Agrico siding at Shrewsbury Road. The photos were taken by Frank on November 24, 1976.
The older man who found his photograph was the engineer, visible and identifiable in the cab of #9999. He and Frank had a most cordial conversation, replete with reminiscences of the “good old days”.
A few weeks ago I wanted to ride the subway from New Carrollton, MD to Georgetown (Wash, DC). The public timetable lists a train leaving at 8:38 p.m. I got to the station at 8:33 and the train pulled out 5 minutes early.
I wrote to customer service and got the incredibly stupid answer that timetables are merely advisory. Here's the exchange of messages.
(I'm also going to post this to bustalk since this answer also applies to buses.)
Michael
Dear Mr.
Thank you for your e-mail. The trains are not operated on a strict
timetable. Operators and customers use the timetable as a guide.
Again, as the Metrorail timetable states: "Times listed in this
timetable are approximate,..." The trains do not offer any exact arrival or departure times and the timetables are merely intended as a guide.
Sincerely,
Bob
Consumer Representative
Case Number: 15509
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Dear Mr.
I want to be sure what you're telling me. Are you saying the DEPARTURE
times from ORIGIN stations don't match the DEPARTURE times that are
given to operators? Are you saying operators are given one set of departure times and the public is given a DIFFERENT set of departure times? If what you say is true, then your Ride Guide is useless because it doesn't have the correct times. How can I rely on the ride guide to catch a particular train from an ORIGIN station?
CSVC needs to think some more about its position on timetables.
next move--a FOIA request for the INTERNAL timetable, 'CAUSE you KNOW they are FIXED. I mean, when a transit worker BIDS a job, it specs a schedule. It is IMHO a matter of the PUBLIC's RIGHT to Know, the Real times for at least whatever timepoints are used to "disciline/direct" employees.
Consumer Representative "Bob" isn't very skilled at "spin". Even Ari Fleisher could do a better job at spinning lies.
That's OK ... we all know who Bob is, and he routinely dispenses slack from his La-Z-Boy at the Church of the Subgenius (subgenius.com)
JR Bob Dobbs.....6955 USB
Yep, Bob's a ham too. :)
I don't think Bob is right. I find the Ride Guide times to be accurate, although in morning rush, the trains can be up to 3 minutes off schedule (with regular spacing). They also don't post pprinted schedules during rush hour, the RideGuide has them but don't use them, just assume the train will come every 2-4 minutes if you are on "shared trackage" and every 4-8 elsewhere.
I should have made clearer. It happened on a Saturday night where the headway is 15 minutes.
Michael
There could have been a need to send the train early, or you got a train running late. I don't think what happened to you was a regular occurance at all.
It probably the practice at DC Metro to send out a train ahead of its posted schedule to cover a gap in service due to previous delays. Remember we are talking about a subway line here - with frequent service, all trains making all stops, and lack of customer dependence on printed schedules. DC Metro is not a commuter rail with relatively infrequent service and trains that may make a unique pattern of specific stops. Unless the next train did not leave until say 8:48, this complaint is really petty. If a train leaving 5 minutes early is the biggest problem anyone has had in the last week, then that person has no problems. As my now-grown children used to say, "Chill!"
Your answer is reasonable (of course I don't know if it's correct in this case).
Bob's is not.
Thank you for the kind words!
How about Bob offering:
"What the hell do you want for your $2? Now please hang up, I got other idiots (I mean, customers) to talk to. JeezuZ..."
:0)
while during 'base day' timings I might agree, from a look at WMATA's web site, the headway in question is 15 minutes. Leaving 5 min early is rider hostile in my view.
This explanation makes no sense. A revenue train was sitting the station before I arrived at the platform. (I could see it from the parking lot.)
After 8:38, the next train is 8:53. It WASN'T a gap train. The operator left early. In the unlikely event it was a gap train, the early departure opened another gap. You can't close a gap by opening another gap unless you use an extra train. There WASN'T an extra train.
Did it ever occur to you that I was trying to make a connection to a bus that only runs once a hour? NO!!
And since the next scheduled train was 8:53, which is later than the "8:48" you quote above, I guess it WASN'T petty by your standards.
Thank you for agreeing with me.
Michael
Washington, DC
If the 8:23 train was not running for some reason, you have a 30 minute gap between Orange Line trains. This way, there was a train at 8:08, 8:33 (approx), and 8:53, resulting in gaps of 25 and 20 minutes, instead of 30 and 15, especially important for passengers going to Vienna. Also, the operator can not leave early, the switch will not be set until it is time to go.
I don't think your answer about the switch is correct. The operator keys up the train and the switch will set for the correct direction unless central has the current of traffic set for New Carrollton, in which case the arriving train will get priority over the departing train. But then, that would only apply if the arriving train has to cross over to come into the station on the empty track. (I'm reluctant to use track numbers because I'm not sure of the numbers.)
Michael
... Ouch. I've ready every message, BTW. That sounds nothing like what Metro would do. However, I do believe you.
I guess now I know who the better company is between WMATA and SEPTA. NEVER IN MY LIFE have I known SEPTA trains to depart early. Bus routes, yes, but never the trains. I also have never had reason to complain to SEPTA, and the one time I did write them, while they didn't follow my suggestion (at first), they didn't spout a bunch of bullcrap about what they were trying to do. Just gave the facts, and let themselves learn their lesson.
Judging by what you've said, WMATA doesn't give a rats ass about their customers at all, if they go so far as to condone early departures. It's forgivable to be late, but not early, and certainly not in areas of limited headway.
I was on a babylon local today and the train broke down about a mile or so before valley stream, then was pushed to valley stream and terminated there due to brake problems,
which yard do eastbound trains goto?
There is a layup track at the east end of the station which is governed by Valley Tower. Lots of West Hempstead trains terminate there as shuttles, and use it. Also, an occasional Far Rockaway train might make its way there, also for shuttles to Valley Stream.
As you mentioned, the overnight Far Rock - Valley Stream shuttles also use the layup track. The one westbound train that originates in Valley Stream doesn't use the layup track. It comes in empty from the west, stops in the station to pick up passengers for about 5-10 minutes and then reverses back west to Penn.
That I know already. It used to go as train 2825, then go back to Jamaica from Penn Station light, then go back as train 1303 which used to be a Penn connection for what was formerly train 617 from Port Jeff. Not that train terminates at Hicksville, and goes back to Port Jeff from there. This train also comes out of one of the two trains from Westbury in the AM, to which I believe is train 2401.
There is a large yard just east of Babylon Station on the West Islip border. It can be seen from Rte 231.
There is a large yard just east of Babylon Station on the West Islip border. It can be seen from Rte 231.
Or from a train on the Montauk line.
i passed it today, and saw only one track branching off the main line.
is it true that the trains in both directions use one track????
Yep. It's single track the whole way.
There IS a second track at the West Hempstead terminal, but the headways and length of the track (about 5 miles) are such that single-track operation is feasible.
The stations are: West Hempstead, Hempstead Gardens, Lakeview, Malverne, Westwood, .... (Valley Stream, etc.)
wayne
Yup, quite a few lines are only one track. In addition to the West Hempstead Branch, the Montauk Branch is only one track from east of Sayville all the way to Montauk - almost 60-70 miles. Ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson Branches also have a lot of one track sections. They use passing sidings to bypass trains coming from the opposite direction. On the Montauk branch they are near some of the stations, like Mastic-Shirley. On the Port Jefferson Branch, the passing sidings are some of the stations themselves.
Just to add a few:Hempstead Line between Garden City and Hempstead including the Country Life Press Station.The Oyster Bay Branch N/O Glen Cove Parts of the Port Washington BranchThe Greenport Branch (although you did say the Ronkonkoma Line which this is an extention of)The line that branches off the Ronkonkoma Branch in Bethpage and goes south to Babylon and points east There might be others that I'm not aware of.
"The line that branches off the Ronkonkoma Branch in Bethpage and goes south to Babylon and points east."
This is the Central Branch - no stations, diesel trains only, but does connect the Main Line to the Montauk Branch.
I know, I was just listing it as one of the single tracked lines.
The Long Beach branch is single track across the Reynolds Channel Bridge (between Island Park and Long Beach).
CG
I had a feeling there was a single tracked section of the Long Beach Branch but since I wasn't sure I didn't mention it.
It's not very long -- probably less than 1/2 a mile, but it does create something of a bottleneck at times -- not enough to double track the bridge when they replaced it a few years back, though.
CG
Ronkonkoma and Port Jefferson Branches also have a lot of one track sections. They use passing sidings to bypass trains coming from the opposite direction.
Most of the Ronkonkoma line east of Farmingdale is single-track. That's pretty amazing considering how busy the line is.
It's only about five miles long and the service pattern is such that any train that enters the branch EB at Valley Stream has exclusive use of the branch. There are no passing sidings enroute. Once an EB train reaches West Hempstead, it normally turns for the next WB from W Hempstead to Valley Stream, and again is the only train operating on the branch.
Single track RR branches are quite normal in most parts of U.S. and Canada. Between passing sidings, signals, and strict operating rules, there is virtually no danger of a collision between trains going in opposite directions.
there is a hotel on the end of the line / the west hempstead station
anyone here ever stayed there ?..it looked ok to me ...( oh well )..
this hotel on the end ot the lirr station west hempstead .....
has to be better than the hempstead -- " no so quality inn""
which was run better when it was a best western hotel on clinton st.
in hempstead ...
i would not reccomend any one stay in that hell hole there !!
by no means !!
I think the hotel you are referring to is being used as temporary (emergency) housing.
wayne
i do not think so ....well, the sign said it is a hotel with rooms
for rent like nay other hotel / motel
...
however i should have got a phone number and business card there !
i did like how close it was to the west hempstead lirr station ...
the quality inn at 80 clinton street in hempstead sucks since it was
dropped by the best western hotel chain ( much better back in 2000 )..
..
Baaad area, that's for sure!
John, what's wrong with that area, other than the color of the locals skin?
Well the main thing wrong with that area is it's high crime rate and delapidation.
How does the crime rate in West Hempstead (or downtown Hempstead for that matter -- I'm not sure which area you're talking about) compare to other areas?
What makes you say that the areas around those two hotels are dilapidated?
How does the crime rate in West Hempstead (or downtown Hempstead for that matter -- I'm not sure which area you're talking about) compare to other areas?
What makes you say that the areas around those two hotels are dilapidated?
The area around the end of the West Hempstead line is a rather uninteresting commercial zone with little to see, but it's not a dangerous area in any way.
I was a little surprised about that that comment also. I never found West Hempstead to be a bad neighborhood at all. Not particularly pretty near the station, but far from being a dangerous neighborhood.
i was saying that the quality inn at hmpstead on clinton street has terribl management
it was owned by th best western hotels back in 2000
was an excellent hotel back then !!
only 2 blocks away from the lirr ...
i was saying that the quality inn at hmpstead on clinton street has terrible management
it was owned by th best western hotels back in 2000
was an excellent hotel back then !!
only 2 blocks away from the lirr ...
It aint pretty near the station and I always see alot of hobos walking around. West Hempstead, the town which is a bit west of there is quite nice though. I remember seeing alot of kosher resteruants when I rode the N32 down Hempstead ave.
I never got past the White Castle right at that station to eat anywhere else.
I can't forget it either, I locked my keys in my car at that White Castle when I was railfanning the West Hempstead and Hempstead branches about 10 years back! Luckily I didn't realize it until after I ate, or I would not have enjoyed my lunch. Luckily though, I was able to pry one of the windows open.
I actually remember when that White Castle actually had waitresses that went to your car. They attached a tray to the window and you paid them there. (no they weren't on roller skates) Actually the White Castle was a little further west than it is now, near where the IHOP is. There was still a railroad crossing on Hempstead Tnpk (and Hempstead Av) in those days. The White Castle was just W/O the track. By the way, the building that Shopper's Village is in was S. Klein in those days.
P.S. I've been carrying an extra set of car keys in my pocket for years to avoid what happened to you. And of course ever since I started carrying the extra keys I never had to use them!
Drifting off topic a bit... many years ago, when our children were small, we stopped at a friend's house (in rural North Carolina) intending that I would simply drop a couple loaves of fresh bread off (she was recovering from surgery) and head on our way. She was doing much better and invited us in, so I went back to the car, switched it off (leaving the keys in the ignition, as always), and gathered up the older children while Mary got our youngest out of his car seat. In the process, Mary or Jr. apparently managed to bump the electric lock button, and also left her purse in the car, so ALL THREE SETS OF KEYS (mine plus the two she carried) were now locked inside. Fortunately, it was a simple matter to get a bent coathanger inside and trip the electric lock button again.
All of our cars now either require some form of positive action from outside to lock the doors or have a numeric combination pad that will let you unlock the vehicle without the key - no more lockouts!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Slim Jim" ... don't leave home without it. :)
Unfortunately, with most new cars, slim jims don't work anymore. And some makes, especially GM cars, are extremely difficult for locksmith picks. And even if you don't leave home without a slim jim, where are you going to store it where it won't get locked in the car too? Take it from me, an extra set of keys in your pocket will not only open your locked car but because of Murphy's Law will insure against you ever locking your keys in the car in the first place.
A problem I've had with several cars is locks being frozen on cold days. And although the tubes of anti-freeze lock spray (for want of a better name) works very good only if you're at home and have the stuff in the house. It doesn't really work too well if you keep it in the glove compartment.
As a side note, whenever I got a police call for keys locked in a car the first thing I asked was "have you tried a rock?" :)
Hahahahahahaha ... Yeah, figgered I'd get a lecture. Heh. Keys in the pocket at all times IS a viable rule, although breaking into most cars upstate involves little more than poking your finger through the plastic bag doubling as a window. :)
"Slim Jim" ... don't leave home without it.
I like the extra-spicy ones myself, the ones with Tabasco sauce.
Heh.
>>> All of our cars now either require some form of positive action from outside to lock the doors or have a numeric combination pad that will let you unlock the vehicle without the key - no more lockouts! <<<
My car has one of those numeric pads, so I keep a house key in the car, since my problem is getting locked out of my apartment, which locks whenever the door is closed. I usually pat my trouser pocket just before closing the door to be sure I have my keys, but there have been a few times (usually if I am in a hurry) when the patting and the slam of the door coincided.
Tom
didnt churches chicken replace that location ?
No, like a lot of White Castle/Church's Chicken locations, they share the same store. By the way, years ago there was a Wetson's on the South side of Hempstead Av by the station.
I think there's a Wendy's in West Hempstead, not too far from the train station.
they merged
Is Church's chicken any good? Or is it like that KFC junk? I wish Kenny Rogers was still around, they had the best chicken around.
As for the Best Roast Pork award, that goes to Szechuan express in Greenvale.
OK, now I'm getting hungry. Can't wait to have it again tomorrow. :-)
Mmmm, chopstick lickin good
Last February or March, my wife was going to the wake for a distant relative in West Hempstead. We decided that I'd take the train to West Hempstead station, she'd pick me up around 7 pm after leaving the wake, and we'd go to dinner (Hunam in Levittown, terrific food). I got to the station, such as it is, a bit before 7, only to have Carole call me on my cell phone and tell me that her car was blocked in the funeral home's parking lot. Once she did get out, she had trouble finding the station - the person at the wake who gave her directions ended up directing her to Hempstead Gardens. She wasn't able to get to pick me up for about 45 minutes. Let me tell you, there must be few more boring things in the world than to have to kill 45 minutes around West Hempstead station! It didn't help that the jacket I was wearing was woefully inadequate for the evening's cold temperatures.
At least we ended up having a very good meal at Hunam.
Well to me, the area where the West Hempstead station seems more like Hempstead Village, once you're on Woodfield Rd or Hempstead ave heading SW, there is a large improvement.
Also the power lines around the West Hempstead station are the oldest I ever seen. It doesn't help any.
If you think those are old, you should see the ones up around Country Life Press station! Those are so old, the wooden poles have aged to grey!
wayne
LIPA has the oldest poles around it seems. Well I guess that's why the power goes out so much.
Also the power lines around the West Hempstead station are the oldest I ever seen. It doesn't help any.
I think those power lines follow the route of the old line when the Railroad used to continue and run from West Hempstead to Mineola. I wonder if those power lines were there when the tracks were still there.
Bob Andersen once sent me this old picture of the crossing at Hempstead Tnpk which I posted HERE. You can see a telophone pole on the left of the pic which would be the South side where IHOP is now.
What a great old picture! It is interesting that they abandoned that old line. It seems like it would have been handy, even if just for reroutes, or loop service. I believe the LIRR still owns the overgrown ROW, but not sure.
Thank Bob Andersen, it was his picture.
By the way Jacove Liquors, although in a new building slightly east of where they are in the pic, is still there. Those tudor style buildings are still there too.
I think I got the picture from Art Huneke
WOW! Steam on the West Hempstead branch, next stop Country Life Press.
I wonder when that was taken, had to be the 40s or 50s. I remember seeing ONE TRAIN cross there, this was in 1960 IIRC, they had stopped revenue service before then, so it may have been a non-revenue move. The train was grey MP54 type cars and had owl windows in front. I remember it clearly even to this day. We had been shopping at S.Klein and the train just happened by.
wayne
Yes the do follow the ROW, and I wouldn't be suprsied if they were the original poles. The picture for November in my LIRR calander has a shot of the RR from Tuckahoe rd back in the 60s, and you can see in the left the wide T-arm poles that still remain in the LI Power system today.
Many poles are in terrible shape today due to their age, many warped and leaning. I thought when LILCO became LIPA things would change. Guess not. :-(
what are you comparing it too?...Sea Cliff?...have you ever walked down Glen Cove Ave past the housing projects on the hill that abutts Sea Cliff?...gee....maybe that's what you are comparing it too. Hempstead for the most has had very few shootings, compared to Roosevelt. And beside...I am sure you have gone through the Hempstead bus terminal at night..right?...do you need a body guard when you past through there?...lets get real....Hempstead is not like South Jamaica.....ok?
I've been through the bus terminal at night, and I feel fairly safe because it's busy. I never see many people around that West Hempstead LIRR station.
That area on the "hill" on Glen Cove ave in Glen Cove is pretty bad, yeah it's worse than W.Hempstead LIRR for sure. That hill looks like the S.Bronx easily. I hate going by there, but sometimes I don't have a choice (my doc's office is near there).
No, Hempstead is no South Jamaica. In alot of ways, there has been more improvements to Hempstead than Glen Cove, like that brand new shopping center they opened up on the west side.
Hempstead has alot more going for it, with LIRR electric service near by, and plenty of bus and road access. Glen Cove is too far gone for any fixing. Not to mention it's NIMBY ville.
Talking about the Hempstead Bus Terminal (and no, I won't bring it to BusTalk, so there!) who remembers the old terminal a block away? Nedicks was inside, not to mention the best pizzaria I've ever been to. The smell of their pizza actually complimented the smell of the exhaust of the Hempstead Bus Company's Macks! And for trivia sake who can name all of the pre-MSBA/LI Bus companies that operated out of the terminal?
I can only remember The Bee Line, which is today's N6. Bee Line had lot of other routes too besides N6. N2 ran right past our house.
wayne
They NEVER went to the old terminal. The Bee Line Hempstead to Jamaica run (precurser to the N-6) terminated at Little Main Street, a street that doesn't exist anymore near the end of Main Street. There were usually 3-4 buses waiting there so you knew how many fishbowls you can turn down to get a genuine Ralph Kramden old style GM. After getting on the bus it would turn into a big bumpy dirt lot which would raise a lot of dirt and the bumps would be so great in the rear seat of an old style GM you might hit the ceiling, then would make a right onto Franklin, a left onto Hemp Tnpk, and make the first stop at the Phone Company Bldg. To keep this on topic for SubTalk the bus would be signed "Jamaica Subway".
Let me see if I could remember some of the pre-MSBA companies at the old terminal:Hempstead Bus Company-East Meadow, Hicksville, Freeport & Baldwin routes-Macks & Fishbowls
Stage Coach Lines-Farmingdale, Levittown, Bethpage runs
Jerusalem Av Bus Company-ugly brown no rear door old style GM's to Bellmore, Massapequa, etc. Same company as Harran Transportation which then ran school buses but today runs fancy Atlantic City buses
Schenk Transportation (sp)- mostly North Shore routes to Glen Cove, etc. Also ran the parking lot shuttles at Aqueduct & Belmont
Hendrickson Transportation- don't remember where they went, I only remember they were at the last stalls in the terminalThe Hempstead Bus Company was the only LI company that had Macks.
I believe the Stop 20 Diner, near the corner of Hempstead Tpke. and Meacham Ave. was named after the stop number of the Bee line route.
It's called the "Courtesy Hotel", phone number is 516-485-2000.
I have never been inside it, but it has the reputation of being a dump. I have been inside the Hempstead Quality Inn / Best Western / Holiday Inn recently and share your observation about the decline.
Your next choice for a relatively inexpensive, safe and clean hotel in Nassau near an LIRR station might be the Best Western in Massapequa Park.
CG
Another inexpensive motel near an LIRR Station is in Westbury behind Nathans on Old Country Rd. (near the Source Mall) The motel is on Taylor Av. It used to be called Black's Raceway Inn but has new owners and a new name which I don't recall. Although I haven't been there for about 12 years, (it was for temporary lodging when I got lucky!) I recall it was inexpensive (about $60 a night) and clean, although no-frills. Its less than a 1/2 mile walk down Post Av to Westbury Station.
Loads of malls in the area too!
May I also suggest the Floral Park motor lodge, on Jericho Turnpike in Bellerose, a ten-minute walk to the Floral Park LIRR station.
wayne
One big advantage to staying at the hotel in West Hempstead is if you get an urge gor White Castles in the middle of the night its right across the street!!!
I've stayed there a few times,and I dont have a problem with it or the station.
anybody have the real dirt on that hotel next to the west hempstead
station ?? is it in operation ?? who runs it anybody ever stay
there ?
I spotted this graffiti on a northbound C train last night, around 9.30 at 145st. Of note is that the scrawled message - 'fair contract' - was placed SPECIFICALLY over the MTA logo along the entire length of the train. Only one or two cars did not have their logos 'tagged' over.
Smells like an unsatisfied MTA employee to me.
Or someone who wants you (and everyone else) to think its an employee.
i doubt it. graff writers don't bother much with subways these days, and the lettering and 'handwriting' has no graffiti stylism (if that's even a word). If it were an actual graffiti artists that did it, he/she is either pulling a really good, well planned prank, or drugged out of their minds and not able to write straight...
'Inside job.' We had a Redbird R33 pair in for inspection painted all over in white, 'If You Me Save Me...HUG a Redbird.' Quite a stir.
CI Peter
I thought Salaam went back home? :)
This was at least four months ago.
Then he's got a solid alibi. :)
i don't buy it. WHERE'S THE PROFF!!!!
(sorry, i couldn't stop myself... heh heh !)
Heh. I'd go with just the cirumstantials. If Salaam were to tag a redbird, there would have been "railfan window" somewhere in the slogan. There, run rings around you logically there. :)
that or 'photography' mentioned in the mix...
Maybe it was SeveN :0) heh heh heh!
(why i find all this so humorous is beyond me... )
Nah, I think SeveN's gone straight on us ... anybody seen Mayor Rudy? :)
In Maryland yesterday stumping for our Republican gov candidate plus an apprearence in the 2nd Congressional District where the GOP is behind in the polls. Then it's on to Florida to stump for Jub Bush.
Did Rudy have his Reichsbunker hunny in tow to demonstrate that fine fundamentalist moral fiber the repubs claim to have a liplock on? (like Newtie, "do as we SAY, not as we DO?") :)
Don't know, the local media didn't bother with the "important" stuff, just the political drivel.
The local DEMs are taking heat for training 100 or so folks to be poll watchers, in violation of a Maryland law dating to the 1970's. Mucho backpedaling went on today.
As zero hour approaches the TV is overrun with political ads of everybody running for local and House seats. Also for us, several "Unavalable" phone calls each and every day, many for pol's not in my district. However, many of these go bye-bye without ever touching my ear or answering machine, thanks to a liitle device called a Tele-a-Zapper, which tells the automatic computer dialler that my number is disconnected. Cuts the telemarketers off at the knees.
We're registered as "unenrolled" which means that every anklebiter pander bear in the district has been climbing the hill to seek out the sage of the gurus up here, begging and pleading for us to vote for the candidate of (their) choice. For their amusement, we have the "Tom Ridge Homeland Security Light Festival" burning in the atrium, so they can play the "what is your quest? What is your favorite color? What is TODAY'S color?" ...
We'll vote for the candidate of our choice who has been OUT to our house. Paturkey's a no show, H Carl was. Hmmm. If Golisano shows up though, we'll sell. :)
>>> The local DEMs are taking heat for training 100 or so folks to be poll watchers, in violation of a Maryland law dating to the 1970's <<<
No poll watchers? I thought they had just outlawed armed poll watchers wearing white hoods. What prevents the ballot boxes from being stuffed? If everyone believes all the pols in Maryland are so squeaky clean that it is not necessary to watch the polls they are certain to be disillusioned one of these days. If you are really trusting, you can get a "vote by mail" system like Oregon has.
Tom
I used the wrong term (serves me right for typing too fast), what Maryland law has prohibited since the 1970's was the practice of paying people to get voters to the polls by paid GOP or DEM people who would get the voter to cast their vote for the party's candidate.
We have poll judges, who are paid by the local election boards and who run the polling places and make sure everything is on the up-and-up.
>>> what Maryland law has prohibited since the 1970's was the practice of paying people to get voters to the polls by paid GOP or DEM people <<<
That sounds like a "get out the vote" campaign. As long as the voter goes into the booth by himself there should be no harm. Why was it made illegal?
In the 1964 election (the one where we elected the peace candidate rather than the one who would lead us into war) I was a volunteer walking the precinct in a heavily Democratic area from 5:30 to 7:30 P.M., stopping at each house and asking if the person answering the door and all voters in the household had voted and pointed out the need to elect our candidate. If they had not voted, I told them where the polling place was and asked if they needed a ride. If they wanted a ride, I would call HQ from their phone (no cell phones then) to have someone come by with a car to take the voter(s) to and from the voting place. We had no guarantee of how they would vote, but if the person answering the door started raving like Sea Beach Fred, no offer of a ride to the polls would be tendered.
To me, that seemed like fair campaigning and still does. Although I was a volunteer, I do not see the harm of paying someone to do what I did (they did give us free sandwiches and soft drinks at HQ), or paying the guy using his car to transport people.
Tom
WE are going to get a 'fair contract,' it's just some won't see it as such because they have been out of or had not worked in private industry. So they mark up trainsets and make everyone look bad.
Conspiracy theories abound in TWU 100.
Its stupid, MTA employees degrading their own system and then they wonder what they choose off the Street T/O's and other positions. They are just proving how stupid they are and reasons why the MTA should resort to more off the street people.
My crew is all 'off the street.' We work harder and longer, fix more than anyone else, even get more overtime because we salvage the Redbirds. 'Timers' hate use and chastise us because of our 'private industry ways' but I am always learning and I am accepted by them now.
Only our Deputy Superintendent and Supervisors give the crew praise for what we have learned and able to do in just one year, forgiving mistakes that could not have been encountered and learned about in such a short time period. OTS does not always work...45 of 50 T/Os had major incidents of record and the whole class was sent back to SubSchool. CI Peter
45 of 50 in which 34 no longer work with us .And Juice please get a grip I have no doubt that you are a great employee but I hope you realize those redbirds you brag about saving would of been on the road and in great working condition IF YOU NEVER WERE HIRED.
Why do you think the graffie is not from a T/O or C/R or someone that are from off the street. Are you saying that this new contract won't efects them as much as the one who came up thought the ranks to get to were we are now. Is the TA going to put some wording that states that anyone from off the streets will get anything they want becouse they came thought a different route to get hear. If the TA cuts anything from the new contract it will effect all of us the same dame way.
I was tolled by a pasager on Saturday that we don't deserive anything because the signs were programed for Rockaway parkway instead of Broadway Juction because of the G.O. on an R143. I told him that I hope when he ask his boss for raise or anything extra in benafits, that his boss tell him NO. Because he made a misstake on something and he was not worthe of anything and that he is going to get something cut out of his Benfits.
I know that poeple like this will cry foul if we go on strike, but we need to do what it take to keep from being steped on by the Hire Ups. Don't get me worng, I don't think that it's right to do this to the trains or anything eles in the system for that matter.
So think before you posted anything this bull sh-t that says that the worker who are from within the system are wrose then the ones from off the streets Remeber that all TA worker came off the streets before geting the jobs they are in now. Just that some of them stood were they started by choice or for other reason.
Robert
>>> Of note is that the scrawled message - 'fair contract' <<<
There is precedence for this type of graffiti. The first graffiti I saw on subway cars (as opposed to mustaches drawn on advertizing posters) was "8/40" (extra credit for those who remember what it meant) in chalk, or just traced in the surface dirt in 1947 when Mike Quill was being accused of trying to bankrupt the city.
Tom
>>> "8/40" (extra credit for those who remember what it meant)<<<
8 hour workday, 40 hour workweek.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> 8 hour workday, 40 hour workweek <<<
You are correct, and for those of you who do not appreciate the TWU, remember that when Mike Quill organized the union in 1934, the typical motorman worked 11.5 hours each day, 7 days a week.
Tom
Rather than performing a ridiculous act like this, the employees could actually do something worthwhile if they think they're getting screwed. No offense, but...
for 'bearing' with me today. 'Trackworker' was not the title I expected today but the work was healthy and the results 'positive in my face.' Just don't leave me hanging to get my 'feed bag' at lunchtime albeit I eat all day on the job...donuts and water are NOT CED cuisine. I had a very good day and expect me back. CI Peter
Wowsers ... they hijacked YOU TOO for the chain gang? Well, now you have actually gotten the experience to be your very own Roger. :)
I did a full day Saturday but I told the track superintendant that I was only helping Sunday until my brother showed up. 3 hours on a 2nd day of track work and my body is screaming today.
Good man. Did you undo the 'work' of 'Mr. Bizzario' (spiked tie but minus a plate?).
39 ties were replaced between the two days. All on riverside curve so that meant the guard rail had to be removed (Fri) and put back (assume Monday).
Sorry to say, that's something I ain't got the back for anymore myself. Too much bending over in state service for too many years, now my bod naturally assumes the position but can't get out of it. :)
And we're not talking about climbing onto step plates on R-1/9s, either, right?:)
No, THAT would be a "step UP" ... moo. :)
I think it was 8 or 9 on Saturday which made a good dent in the planned job. We also had some folks from Baltimore stop by, just to say HI. They had jealous eyes about our little track machine. That plus the rented compressor made us much more productive.
I too was very tired Saturday night. Spent some time Sunday soaking the tar out of my jeans.
That 'tie clencher is a Godsend and if I had been shown the 'spool lever process' (yes I do hydraulics too) a lot of bad ties would have been missing by the time everyone came back...I do not operate unknown machinery without some instruction save what I put together in my NJ acreage. The little green service vehicle was cute and the seating was warm...we're getting R33s now with new trucks/group boxes that are 'scrap materiel.' Maybe the legend of a CI in CI who tested his trucks by mounting a seat on top and contacting the third rail with a 'chicken stick' is not so far fetched. Of course, if the shoe beam contact shoe is used on one side, the other WOULD NOT BE A STEP!!! BTW: Weeks Barge loading once again at 207th. CI Peter
Peter, just to add to Mr. T's post I must say it was nice to see that two or three of the Balitmore crew lending a hand in the trackwork for a short bit. We couldn't really ask them to get too dirty since they were merely 'passing through'. But I do have photographic evidence of them becoming gandy dancers....I hear you got your first experience of 'dancing' the BERA way yourself, yesterday. Congrats!
Was Jeff there assisting you and Mr. Young?
With 4 operators working/volunteering today on an extra cold day there was a lot of free time between runs. And although the slide show and the Harry Reasoner tape are both quite good after seeing them for the 12,000th time you get tired of them. So to pass the time I started reading the entries in the "Visitor's Comments" book.
The last entree, on todays date stated:
"I really liked the conductor, is he single?"
Now that is plain torture! Which of the four of us did she mean? (hoping that it was a she!) Is my newly shaven head that irresistable or did she mean one of the others? Was it really Karen in the gift shop as a joke? Or Headlights? And which girl was it if it was a passenger? This is driving me nuts.
Gee, I hope my wife doesn't read this!! :)
Jeffrey: do you shave your head often?? Does it look good?? If I shave my head and do an inspection where my safety helmet will not fit, am I losing some protection?? Should I paint my scalp BLUE??
Had a wonderful but tiring day today...we changed out 39 ties. CI Peter
Were you part of the crew at the Quarry Trestle? I didn't envy you guys being out there in the cold all day. However I must admit that I drove 90 miles to East Haven just to get the chance to operate to Short Beach, NOT the Quarry Trestle!!! :)
Check the board Jeff, you will see when they need operators. The superintendant called a few to keep them from coming since it was a slow day (no charters).
I know they need operators for Nov 30th, the first Santa Day.
Nov 17th will be few because opeartors stay over from the anual meeting as well (sometimes 7 operators that day).
It is the head.
Sarge, you sure that guys named is Headlights or Headlice? :)
Yeah, that entry could've been a gag. Particularly if there is no name/address, etc. next to the entry.
The Branford Dating Service, what a concept !
We'll get the Board to spend a little seed money & watch what happens.
Just think of it, we'll have to institute car pooling to accommodate them all. Only trolleys with longitudinal seats ... boys on the left, girls on the right. After dark romantic rides for couples only.
Ring Ring ... that's the sound of the cash register < G >
1602 during daylight...775 thereafter for couples only!!! >G<
;-) Sparky
Toot toot !
One little catch ... any excursions would require adding a car or two since as we ALL know, all the action's in the lead car and it ain't gonna work unless there's a second car for the terminally shy. :)
Extra sections is our speciality A-N-D those that go out last, come back first. We'll have to talk to Dear Abby about this.
Kind of a new twist on "the last shall be first and the first shall be last".:)
Father Selkirk is just as capable of blessing an entire train as a piddly cab. Ohm. Ohm. Watt. Amp. :)
I got a look at all the new mosaic work at the 28th Street Station on the BMT Broadway line. It is quite colorful, quirky and funny. Here's a couple of the mosaics. There must be about 30 different ones.
click on page 3 for 28th Street
I also found a while ago, the MTA notice announcing the competition for the art work at these stations:
MTA proposal
I added those to the list of my favorites the moment I first saw them. Whimsical's the word, I think.
Have you seen the new artwork in the Bryant Park passageway? I first saw it today, and I like it a lot, although I miss the old display there.
David... I would agree that whimsical is a much better word. I'm going to call Arts for Transit and find out some more information about the artist.
I haven't been in the Bryant Park passageway in a long time. I will give it a look as soon as the Manhattan Bridge switches sides. What's in there??
Heypaul? In Subtalk?
Welcome back!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey Kevin... Thanks for the welcome back....
I called the MTA Arts for Transit office and got some information about the installation at 28th Street. It is the work of Mark Hadjipateras, and the themes on the walls reflect the toy center, fashion center and flower center businesses. I also learned that the glass is cut individually by hand, and not by computer as I had thought. I really like the work at 28th Street. There will be other work at 23rd, 8th and Prince. There will be a ceremony after all the stations are done.
Here's a link to a page with some information on the artist and his intent at 28th Street.
28th Street Murals
Truly, I really like the new artwork at 28th. I just saw it with a glance, but will have to check it out better next time I am there. It's a real treat having the original mosaics on Broadway back, and I think all the little extras they have been adding to many of the stations (all over the system) really makes them more interesting over the alternative of them just restoring the plain white tiles.
Should be more like:
Welcome back, Paul
/____|-|____\----THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE WELCOME BACK---/____|-|____\
A.P. Smith hydrants immortalized in tile. Cool.
I thought the new mosaics at 28th were really cool. I didn't have a chance to get off the train about a week ago when I went through there, so didn't really get a chance to look at them closely. They caught me by surprise actually, and they looked like little UFO's to me at first glance. I got to get off the train the next time I go through there. All in all I think they have been doing an amazing job at the Broadway Line stations so far. Hopefully they will continue into 4th AVe in Brooklyn soon. The station at 36th Street is already a jewel, hopefully the local stations will follow.
I gotta tell ya, these look pretty ugly to me. A better way to decorate these stations would have been to follow precedent and show historical images.
--23rd and 5th was the toy center in Manhattan for many years.
--28th between Bway and 6th was Tin Pan Alley and indeed I believe Astaire was "discovered" on 28th Street along with his sister, Adele.
What they're putting there looks like a bad version of Keith Haring, or the dude who had that exhibition in the old Myrtle Avenue BMT station at Flatbush Ave...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Two examples of mosaics without local connections are on the 1/9 line at Houston and 50th. Houston Street has mosaics showing sea creatures in a flooded station, while 50th has Alice in Wonderland characters. Both mosaics date from the early 1990's and do not, as far as I can tell, have any specific meaning or context with regards to the stations at which they are located - in other words, they could be at almost any station.
Two examples of mosaics without local connections are on the 1/9 line at Houston and 50th. Houston Street has mosaics showing sea creatures in a flooded station, while 50th has Alice in Wonderland characters. Both mosaics date from the early 1990's and do not, as far as I can tell, have any specific meaning or context with regards to the stations at which they are located - in other words, they could be at almost any station.
While on the subject of the meaning of "art in stations". What is the meaning of the "art" sculptures in the 14th Street/8th station. They are little figures under the stairways, or in corners here and there. When I first seen them under a stairway getting off of the A train at 14th, at first glance I thought it was a pile of....well you know. Then I realized it was actually a sculpture and they were everywhere, even in the corners of the mezzanine. Is there a common theme I am missing.
>>>What is the meaning of the "art" sculptures in the 14th Street/8th station. <<<
Those are by the occasionally ubiquitous Tom Otterness. His brand of whimsy can also be glimpsed at the new West Side park at the north end of Battery Park City, as well as Metrotech in Brooklyn. He has a knack for invloving his art with street fixtures like staircases and lampposts.
The theme on the west side is the pursuit of money as gnomes push pennies around. If I had a chance to view the art at 14th St I could probably tell you what that theme is too.
This is Tom's webpage
http://www.tomostudio.com/
while this page deals with his Battery Park City work
http://www.batteryparkcity.org/otterness.htm
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks. They are interesting, they just caught me off gaurd when I first saw them. Then I realized they are everywhere, even in some of the corners in the hall leading to the L Train.
For those not familiar with them, see here for a sample from the MTA site:
14th Street/8th Art
Actually the "birds" theme at the Canal Street - A/C/E station are also kind of cool.
The art at Canal IND is called "The Gathering"
Yes. They're nice, but why are we putting tchotchkes on the wall, when the T/A doesn't have money to buy basic supplies like paint?
Hasn't the money already been allocated for this in the MTA Captial Program?
why are we putting tchotchkes on the wall, when the T/A doesn't have money to buy basic supplies like paint?
I think that part of any station renovation requires that a certain percentage go for artistic work.
Perhaps William Barclay Parsons words in 1900 have a bearing here:
The railway and its equipment as contemplated by the contract constitute a great public work. All parts of the structure where exposed to public sight shall therefore be designed, constructed, and maintained with a view to the beauty of their appearance, as well as to their efficiency.
I think that this was an attempt to make the subway into something more than an ugly grim hole in the ground. I suppose that the many hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers heading to work right now may not have the time to look at and appreciate the artwork. But the work is colorful, intriguing, fun and a welcome relief from the appearance of much of the new equipment which in contrast seems quite harsh and sterile.
I think that part of any station renovation requires that a certain percentage go for artistic work.
And thankfully so. They really add some interest to the stations.
I think that this was an attempt to make the subway into something more than an ugly grim hole in the ground. I suppose that the many hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers heading to work right now may not have the time to look at and appreciate the artwork. But the work is colorful, intriguing, fun and a welcome relief from the appearance of much of the new equipment which in contrast seems quite harsh and sterile.
People may not stop and look, but subliminally, I think people do notice it. I think people do enjoy it. It may be unconscous, but these art additions are noticed. They do bring cheer to the stations, thereby improving the commute, even if that is all they do for many people.
I know I would much rather wait for a train 5 days a week at the 28th Street/Broadway station than the Rector/Broadway Line station, whether I like the art, look at the art, totally ignore it, or don't even notice it. It's the atmosphere that the renovations give that improves the general climate of the subway.
Heypaul is correct. It is a legal requirement that 1% of the project's budget go for artwork. MTA calls it "Percent for Art,"
or at least did at one time.
David
...Turner Classic Movies ran a 30-minute MGM travalogue earlier tonight on Manhattan from 1945 or 46, complete with several shots and a mention of the Third Ave. el "the last remnant of the lines that once covered Manhattan."
The first, brief shot was of an uptown el train going past Wall Street at Pearl, while the narration part was a much longer segment, accompanied by Technicolor shots up an uptown el train (complete with Interborough logo) apparently somwhere on the Bowery. The sharpness of the print made the color images look as though they were far newer than 55 or so years old (and the number of different colors the GM surface transit buses were painted in the mid-40s was also pretty amazing).
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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With dollar-sign dreams tempting them, rail equipment manufacturers worldwide are eyeing California, where notions of a $25 billion high-speed passenger train service are moving nearer to reality.
Bombardier Transportation’s new 5,000-horsepower JetTrain is perfect for aspects of the California system that planners envision will whisk people from San Diego and Los Angeles in the south to San Francisco and Sacramento in the north, Bombardier officials said recently when they unveiled their new locomotive.
California’s high-speed rail plan is one of about a dozen across the country that are moving forward, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.
Florida issued a request for proposals for its rail project two weeks ago, and Californians will vote on a $9.95 billion high-speed rail bond issue in November 2004 to get construction started.
“The New California Gold Rush” is how California’s High-Speed Rail Authority bills its ambitious plan. It envisions creating hundreds of thousands of jobs building railroad track and cars. A high-speed rail system would relieve congestion in the air and on the state’s major north-south freeways by someday carrying 32 million passengers annually and making the downtown San Francisco-Los Angeles trip in 2 _ hours.
“We want to have as many bidders as we can,” said longtime rail advocate and ex-Santa Clara County Supervisor Rod Diridon, who now heads the state authority. “I’m sure in the end the work will go to a consortium. This will be a large-scale enterprise and the companies will figure it’s best to spread the risk.”
Bombardier, which is already the world’s largest supplier of high-speed rail cars and engines, is preparing for the challenge, and keeping watch on its competitors, including France’s Alstom and Germany’s Siemens. All have built systems in Europe and Asia.
The main line of the California bullet train, which is designed to enter downtown San Francisco from the Peninsula, will feature electric trains “powered by fuels that result in zero emissions” and go faster than 200 mph.
Companies that make high-speed engines and passenger cars will line up to supply the electric trains, many of which will get their power from catenary.
The 2004 bond issue also calls for spending $950 million on branch lines for the high-speed system, such as on the coastal route from San Diego to Los Angeles’ Union Station. The authority already admits that coastal communities in Orange County are unlikely to accept the overhead wire, so it is searching for other options.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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“Meager federal funding for Amtrak contributes to the closure of large Ohio steel company,” states the Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers last week in a press release.
The Ohio ARP’s administrative director, Stu Nicholson in Columbus, said, “Years of subsistence level funding for Amtrak is now contributing to the near demise of an Ohio steel supplier that provides the passenger railroad’s fleet with most of its undercarriage assemblies. This may result in the loss of hundreds of good-paying jobs.”
The Ohio ARP is a non-profit railroad advocacy association.
Buckeye Steel Castings Corp. of Columbus said it had suspended operations as it negotiates for financing to continue operations.
Buckeye once employed more 1,400 people, but that number shrank to as few 400 two years ago. Business had begun to turn around slightly and employment rose to almost 700 as of last week.
The post-September 11, 2001 downturn in the economy and railroad industry saw the domestic demand for Buckeye products drop.
“This drop in business is due in no small part to the fact that action to fully fund Amtrak, one of Buckeye Steel’s major customers, has been sidetracked by Congress and the Bush Administration,” said Nicholson.
Buckeye Steel’s closure and layoffs follows the loss of another major Ohio rail industry supplier – a Timken bearings plant in Columbus, which also had Amtrak as an important customer. Ohio has more than 100 rail industry suppliers, many of which serve Amtrak and commuter rail agencies nationwide.
“When the federal government starves Amtrak, it also starves Amtrak’s suppliers, their employees and local economies which depend on these manufacturing jobs,” said Nicholson.
“Amtrak’s trains don’t even serve Columbus, and yet the ripple effect from starving Amtrak has had a direct and serious impact on our local economy. If the federal government provided enough funding to create a world-class passenger rail system, world-class economic development would be an obvious result,” Nicholson added.
Buckeye Steel, an OARP corporate member, began 121 years ago as the Murray-Hayden Foundry. Ironically, President George W. Bush’s great-grandfather, Samuel Prescott Bush, was president of Buckeye Steel from 1907-1927.
“Yet, President Bush proposes a $571 million budget for Amtrak in 2003 that would result in its shutdown. Amtrak said it needed at least $1.2 billion for 2003 just to survive,” Nicholson added, “but the General Accounting Office reported earlier this year that Amtrak needs $2.4 billion per year to run the system as-is and begin returning the condition of its physical assets to a state of good repair. That includes the replacement of hundreds of worn-out trucks that Buckeye Steel would likely provide, as well as assemblies for new rail passenger cars.”
Buckeye Steel officials say that would immediately improve its financial situation and preserve valuable jobs.
“It’s ironic that President Bush’s lack of support for Amtrak is contributing to the fall of a company that his great-grandfather helped make a success,” Nicholson said.
“President Bush and Congress can change this tomorrow by working to give Amtrak the funding it needs to rebuild.”
Uh huh.
Any company out there would be awefully stupid to stake their existence on a government agency that's been teetering on the edge of extinction for years now.
There's nothing unique about RR steel castings (besides the acient sloppy designs that Amtrak and Metra seem to love) that prevents anyone who's casting for RR parts from casting anything else.
Cast trucks have been on the way out for decades now (Budd developed the first more or less modern fabricated ones in the early 50's), and for lots of reasons. Today, reducing unsprung weight to a minimum is recognized throughout industry as a positive thing, welding has matured greatly, and casting has fallen out of general favor (though it's still used in many places).
In any case, the handwritting was on the wall 5 years ago. Why didn't they diversify? And why the hell would they think any future orders would be on cast trucks? (The LIRR, NYCTA, NJT, MN, Septa, etc, don't order new stuff with cast trucks).
The article says undercarriage assemblies, not truck assemblies.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Beginning October 27, Amtrak added another round-trip train on the Hiawatha Service operating between Chicago and Milwaukee. The new trains leave Chicago and Milwaukee at the beginning and end of the workday, and will bring the total number of round-trips in the corridor up to seven from Monday through Saturday, while remaining at six round-trips on Sunday.
“We are excited that Amtrak will offer even more options for travelers in this key corridor,” stated Acting Secretary Tom Carlsen of the Wisconsin DOT.
Carlsen added, “With almost 1,100 people using the Hiawatha Service every day, we have one of the busiest intercity passenger train routes in the country. We also have the best on-time performance rate, 94 percent, of any Amtrak route,” according to the San Francisco Chronicle.
Northbound No. 329 operates Mondays through Saturdays, leaving Chicago’s Union Station at 6:00 a.m.; Glenview at 6:22 a.m.; Milwaukee at 6:59 a.m.; and arriving Sturtevant, Wis. (Racine) at 7:29 a.m.
Southbound No. 342 leaves Racine daily at 7:30 p.m.; Milwaukee, 7:54 p.m.; Glenview, 8:31 p.m.; and arrives Chicago 8:59 p.m.
By adding the new service, Amtrak will be making more efficient use of its equipment. Previously, the six roundtrips required the use of three trainsets to correctly position the equipment to meet the timetable. By adding the seventh roundtrip, Amtrak will use just two trainsets that are rotated more frequently.
Wisconsin contributes about $3.9 million each year, which is added to the $1.3 million provided by the state of Illinois, to support the Hiawatha Service. Wisconsin is in the middle of a $2.6 million renovation and private development partnership at the passenger rail station in downtown Milwaukee, and is planning a new $7.5 million train station at Milwaukee’s General Mitchell International Airport. The village of Sturtevant is also developing a new train station to serve that community.
“Amtrak’s new service fits very well into our long-term goal to make the Hiawatha Service more efficient while at the same time expand opportunities for ridership growth,” Carlsen noted.
“More frequent train service is essential to providing good connections for business and leisure travelers and, ultimately, airport connections. The potential growth in ridership also improves the viability for our public and private development partnership at the Milwaukee station, which is already among Amtrak’s top 20 busiest stations. This also keeps us on track for eventual high-speed passenger rail service to Madison and other parts of Wisconsin.”
Since Chicago and Milwaukee are only 90 minutes apart by train,does the Hiawatha service carry a significant amount of daily Loop commuters, similar to the New York-Philly Clocker?
There is no analogy. The MILW trains are 4-5 cars and do not duplicate Metra's North line service on the same line. Clockers trains are really NJT trains with liitle ridership south of Trenton.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Cincinnatians are debating the merits of a light rail system for their city, to be decided in the ballot boxes on November 5.
“We don’t even agree on the facts or on what facts to use,” said Hamilton County Commissioner John Dowlin, one of three panelists to present positions in a debate on October 23 against the issue that would raise the Hamilton County sales tax by one-half cent, reports The Cincinnati Enquirer.
The two-plus hour debate at Xavier University included several sharp exchanges over everything from the impact of the proposed plan on air quality to how to calculate the percent of transit ridership.
If passed, the ballot initiative would cover the local portion of the 30-year $2.7 MetroMoves plan, which includes a proposed 60-mile light rail system that would cost $2.6 billion and another $100 million in expansion and improvements to the existing Metro bus system.
One of those exchanges came after a question over air quality, with Glen Brand of the Sierra Club, speaking for the pro-light rail side, claiming that the system would pull enough cars off the road to eliminate hundreds of thousands of tons of air pollution from the skies.
That brought a quick response from County Auditor Dusty Rhodes, co-chair of the Alternatives to Light Rail Transit, the committee campaigning against Issue 7.
“Maybe we ought to go to the Draconian measure of limiting each family to one car,” Mr. Rhodes said. “That’s the road we’re heading down now. It’s like if you don’t live where and how they want you to live, you’ll be thrown in a gulag.”
Each side had a three-member panel, and after each panelist gave a presentation, they took questions from the audience of about 60-70 students and local residents.
Another point of contention arose over the issue of how many riders use mass transit or light rail in other cities.
Stephan Louis, chairman of the Alternatives to Light Rail Transit, said that the light rail system would only reduce the amount of vehicle miles traveled in the seven-county metropolitan area by 1 to 2 percent.
“That’s just not worth it, and those numbers are the same or even dropping in other cities,” Mr. Louis said.
Light rail advocate John Schneider said that Louis was distorting that number by including the entire region, even though mass transit is only available in parts of Hamilton County.
“He’s twisting the numbers,” Mr. Schneider said. “When you look at the one place where transit is readily available in our region, downtown Cincinnati, the market share is more like 30-35 percent, which is a significant number.”
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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There is a chance that subway and bus fares will rise in New York City.
The current basic fare is $1.50, but since the subway opened in 1904 at a nickel a ride, fares have risen 13 times, five of those in the last two decades.
Not much is expected to happen until after Election Day, November 5. Gov. George E. Pataki and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which he controls, are not expected to make any changes until then, wrote the The New York Times of October 22.
Some transit officials say they expect a dangerous operating deficit for next year of more than $600 million, but the most recent figures show subway and bus revenues actually running $33 million ahead of budget. Questions have been raised about how those numbers came to be, as well as how last year’s equally dangerous deficit projection of more than $700 million, vanished.
At a City Council hearing in March, the MTA’s budget director, Gary G. Caplan, stressed that it has been seven years since the last increase, and added that MetroCard discounts have driven the cost of an average subway or bus ride down to $1.06.
He did not add an important related point, but his critics quickly did: the drop does not mean that the agency now collects less money. Ridership has increased, so fare revenue has remained actually about the same over the last five years.
Returning to the Council this month, Mr. Caplan appeared to place another important brick in his foundation, contending that New York riders pay slightly less than half of the transit system’s operating costs.
So what else is new?
Gee you just figured that out?
Duh.
I am surprised, however, at the high-quality of auditing they did on the books. Enron could have used these guys.
And to think, there's a real accountant who can count his balls and arrive at the same number TWICE running for governor (McCall) and New Yorkers would rather have the guy from Enron up for a third term. :(
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Out in Illinois, with development moving west from Kane County into Kendall County, Metra, the region’s commuter railroad, is eyeing plans to extend commuter rail service beyond Aurora – and some communities are already feeling left out.
A recent feasibility study by Chicago consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff Inc. found that ridership volume warrants extending service to Montgomery and Oswego, west of Aurora, but the study stopped short of recommending an extension into the Kendall towns of Yorkville and Plano, where big subdivisions are planned.
“Huge tracts of land are being bought up by developers here and we’re facing significant population growth,” says Yorkville Mayor Arthur Prochaska. “We’d like to have a commuter station here as soon as possible,” Crain’s Chicago Business News reported on October 19.
Dennis Gary, a Parsons Brinckerhoff vice-president who co-authored the study, conceded that some of the new subdivisions were not taken into account.
“We used past growth rates to project into the future,” he said. “Our data showed that ridership would drop off considerably if train service were to be extended as far as Plano.”
Technically, Metra’s parent, the Regional Transportation Authority, covers only the six-county metro area. To reach into Kendall, new legislation would be required.
Officials, though, are keeping an open mind.
“We’re telling these areas to go ahead and do the planning work,” said Philip Pagano, Metra’s executive director.
“They may not have the population base at the moment to support commuter rail service, but that can change over time. It’s good to get ahead of the population curve.”
The curve could be substantial. Naperville-based Moser Enterprises Inc., for instance, has proposed a 2,700-home subdivision on Yorkville’s west side.
“Train service here would definitely help us market our homes,” said Moser CEO Arthur Zwemke.
You gotta love Chicagoland residents, the anti-NIMBYs. Between this and the fighting over who will get the El Blue line extention to Schaumberg, Chicago is making itself out to be the one city (or maybe region for that matter) in the country that actually welcomes rail expansion.
You do gotta be careful about any group out of Naperville, nationwide beacon of suburban sprawl at it's worst that it is. They'll come in, build their 3000+ homes each, get their buyers, fill the schools, roads, and any semblance of a transit system out there with people. Then laugh all the way to the bank while the housing market drops right along with the liveablity of the city, and the new homeowners are stuck, a half hour minimum from a hour and a half train ride out of Aurora, in a community that looks like downtown tokyo in a suburban setting.
I've been to Yorkville a few times, a nice little town, with the Fox River flowing right down the west side, down that end it's so shallow you could practically wade across it. Lots of farmland though, and that, of course, screams to developers. I can remember some developments to the north of it, along whatever that north south highway was out there, but they were small, clustered around crossroads from Chicago. Most of the development then was people out there to 'get away' from the city in spec homes on acre lots carved out of the corners of corn fields. Often, to make up for the 2+ hr commute to the city, they have a little fishing ponds to relax when they finally get home.
I have a 2000 Chicago RTA map, and it shows a Pace (suburban bus system) line going south from Aurora into Montgomery in Kendall County. Since this is outside the RTA 6 County area, how is such a service funded (I realize this is more a BusTalk question, but it may determine the feasibility of the Metra extention).
Also, since the Metra UP-North line crosses the state line to terminate in Kenosha, WI, does the state of Wisconsin help subsidize the cost?
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Birney streetcar service returned to neighborhoods in Tampa, Fla., when service began on October 19 on the new TECO Line Streetcar System. The system operated free for its opening weekend, with grand opening celebrations held along its full length.
Tampa Mayor Dick Greco, joined by other dignitaries and longtime streetcar supporters, launched the new service at Centennial Park in Ybor City. Invited guests then traveled down the line in a parade of streetcars, which broke through grand-opening banners at each station stop. Events held along the line included neighborhood outdoor fairs with art, food, and entertainment; open houses at sites of interest; discounts at area restaurants; and 5K runs and walks to benefit charity.
The system is being managed by Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., a not-for-profit organization created by joint action of the city of Tampa and the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, and HART operates and maintains the system under contract to THS. The naming rights for the system were sold to TECO Energy, which is the title sponsor.
In the first phase of development, the streetcars run on a 2.3-mile-long route between the Ybor City Historic District and downtown Tampa, and the trip takes 22 minutes. The route operates with eight streetcars built by the Gomaco Trolley Company of Ida Grove, Iowa, from designs created by HART to resemble the double-truck Birney Safety streetcars used on Tampa’s streets between the 1920s and 1946.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10282002.shtml
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Amtrak will end its five-year effort to haul cars of express cargo on its passenger trains, a service that it had hoped would pump life into the struggling rail line, according to a Wall Street Journal report.
Amtrak spokeswoman Karina Van Veen in Washington told D:F, “We don’t have a timeline, yet, but a plan is currently being formulated.”
The move, approved by Amtrak’s board last week, had been under review by Amtrak for months, according to a report from the United Transportation Union.
Last summer Amtrak President David Gunn indicated he was unhappy with the express business, which he said was losing money and hampering on-time performance of Amtrak’s long-distance trains.
Amtrak spokesman William Schulz said eliminating the cargo business “will be better for our finances, better for our service and better for our continuing customers, both passengers and mail.” He said express cargo would be phased out during Amtrak’s fiscal year ending September 30, 2003. He declined to comment on how many jobs will be eliminated.
Amtrak launched the service in 1997, leased freight cars, opened cargo terminals and carried magazines, fruit juices, tuna fish, canned goods, apples, machinery parts and other products on the same trains that carry passengers.
Some Amtrak long-haul trains started carrying more freight cars than passenger cars, and the company even started some new trains based on anticipated revenue from express service.
Passenger services became an issue, however, because so much time was lost en route at terminals switching out the express cars.
Instead of generating hundreds of millions of dollars a year of additional revenue, the express business had a loss of about $7 million on revenue of about $35 million for the fiscal year ended September 30.
Eliminating express cargo was part of Amtrak’s $3.4 billion budget for the current fiscal year, approved by the board. The budget calls for a larger financial contribution from states to operate Amtrak services in their communities, repair of at least 22 damaged passenger cars sidelined as a result of recent accidents and a federal appropriation of $1.2 billion.
I believe US mail hauling will continue.
KYW news radio reported this morning that the completion of this project is about (1) year away. Rebuilding of the PCC's is taking longer than they thought. They are doing (18) cars.
Chuck Greene
The civil/trackwork and traffic signal portions of the construction are close to done. Unfortunately this work will all be completed about a year before the first car is due back from Brookville. Good ol' Phila drivers will establish their bad habits and when rail service resumes it will come as a big shock (a number of the crash cushions at loading islands have already been taken out by errant motorists).
At least one suggestion went to SEPTA to institute a service of sorts when the construction is done (using either K cars or a mix of the repainted PCC's - and, yes, I know there is an extreme shortage of K cars!), to at least let folks know that trolleys are back, but this idea has fallen on deaf ears at SEPTA.
Hi Bob, its not that it has fallen in deaf ears, but Bob Hughes ho is a close friend of mine hs told me that the saftey island platforms are to high to clear the K cars. At leastthats where there guss is . They havent tried it yet. Its goodfor a PCC but the step well on the K Cars are to low.Bob has tried to get at least weekend service on the 15 running wen all the track work is done and a super told him of that situation. i hope hat helps. Also Bob im an assistant conductor on the RR division so I get some inside word. If you every have any questions, just email me and hopefully I can help.
Hopefully this helps
John
I wouldn't want to doubt Bob Hughes, but I'd also be surprised that the islands can't clear the K's since there was some talk way back when of using some surplus double-enders on the line in the interim. Even back then ('back then' being 3-4 years ago, when the project first got to the drafting board), K cars were the design vehicle - there was going to be a small order of a dozen or so articulated low-floors purchased for 13 and this would free up enough K's to run 15.
The objection to operating mixed (i.e. weekend LRV's, weekday bus) service is twofold, from what I hear - rider confusion (do they board at the loading islands or at the curb?) and ADA-related (the PCC's will be accessible, but the K's aren't, so even with mixed bus operation and SEPTA's current standing at 80%+ accessible buses, this becomes an issue). I've also heard informally that SEPTA doesn't want to 'tease' riders with K's and then switch to rehabbed PCC's once the line gets going and the PCC's are available.
I got wind of this book from a post by Allan over at Harry's site about a month ago.
"New York's Forgotten Substations... The Power Behind the Subway" was written by Christopher Payne.
In 1997, the author was walking past one of the substations in Brooklyn and got a look inside. He was intrigued by the feel of the place, as it appeared to be a place where time has stood still for 80 or 90 years. He later met Robert Lobenstein who is one of the superintendents of the Power Department, and got access to many of the substations.
One of the things that I love about the book is the author has a poetic heart. In the preface he writes:
"Each substation I encountered held a sense of calm and isolation. Thick masonry walls buffered the
interior from outside noise, while the silent and idle machines became sculptures, as if this were some deserted, forgotten museum. Only the change in daylight kept time from standing still. The experience was quite magical and also very surreal. Crossing the threshold of the front door, I felt like I was slipping into a dream, going back ninety years in time to a place far different from anything I had ever known."
The book is loaded with black and white photographs of many of the substations, as well as schematics of the plants. It is a very poetic and moody book, well worth the $21.95 at the museum shop.
If you enjoy going back in time, I would recommend the Steam Generating Plant at Pratt Institute, which is presided over by Conrad Milster, who is a very gracious and knowledgeable host.
When I was there this year, he opened up a breaker and created an arc that was overwhelming. It was almost like the legendary flame I saw flowing from a GG1's pans to the wire in Sunnyside Yard years ago.
Breaker Arc
hey!WELCOME BACK DUDE!
Good to see you posting on Subtalk again heypaul. I was disappointed that you couldn't join us Monday and Tuesday two weeks ago. But that cab in your house was the highlight of my trip. I almost imagined myself chugging her up and flying out of your window onto the street.
I was talking with BMTman last night and he mentioned seeing an old picture of some railfans. When he described it to me, it rang a bell. I went to the Heypaul Rapid Transit Archives which is a pile of newspaper articles that are strewn around my apartment and sure enough found the article and picture.
Who are these two people and what was the occasion??
The person on the train is no doubt the Motorman of the last train on the Myrtle Avenue "El," which ran on Saturday, October 4, 1969. My GUESS is that the other person is E. Jay Quinby, founder of the Electric Railroaders' Association.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David... I'm glad you responded. The man on the right is from the Electric Railroaders' Association but is NOT E. J. Quinby. He is identified as Leo J. Ross, President of the Electric Railroaders' Association. Doug and I were wondering....
The man on the left is indeed the motorman of the trip and is someone who graces our presence here at Subtalk...
Lee Ross is the man on the right (ERA President and editor of Headlights).
Well...not anymore. But he DID grace the Canarsie and Jamaica lines with his presence a few weeks ago.
And was spotted by the authorities at the Selkirk yard later that weekend on his way back to Chi-town ... and that's DEFINITELY him. :)
LOL!
I spotted BigEdIRTmanL's mug RIGHT away ... yep, that's the last Myrt alright, and I know he ran it. Wowsers! :)
You know, I THOUGHT that guy looked like Leo, but since it was over 30 years ago I thought it couldn't be...guess some people look the same forever. I worked with Leo for several years -- nice guy -- and yes, he was an ERA official years ago.
As for the Motorman (proper title at the time), I'm guessing "Big Ed," since he's been identified as a SubTalker, though he hasn't posted here for a while.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Yeah, Big Ed's been a bit too busy kitbashing his models and generally disturbing the peace as an elected official out in Montany lately - unfortunately this place is a bit too dense for him to wade through with the spare time he has. You can STILL find Unca Ed though through Joe Frank and he does look in here every now and then ... now that the snow's flying he might find more time than he's had lately ...
But yep, can't mistake that face. :)
Give that me a Seegar!
Ed Davis, Sr. (aka BIGEDIRTMANL alias the ORIGINAL IRTman) is the youngish Motorman reaching out of the cab to greet Leo Ross...
Well, obviously the Ross on the right is NOT related to you since you would have recognized him.
The gent with the Engineer's cap is the Motorman for the special ERA run on the Myrtle El...and a former SubTalker of much distinction. C'mon Selkirk, at least YOU oughta know who that is!
Heh. Yeah, while I was joyriding the Brighton, Unca Ed was making his biweekly nut over on the Yeastern division. How could I *not* know what mug? My good buddy, shutting down the Myrt and turning off the lights when he left da cab as the last one out the door. :)
How far back do your "rapid transit archvies" go? I have a steady supply of news clippings dating back to 1976.
--Mark
Mark... That may have been one of the earliest articles that I have that hasn't been sucked up into the vacumn cleaner when I do my biannual housecleaning. The archives are very spotty, as I mainly saved things that I knew about.
Another old one is from May 15, 1973 Daily News with 3 pictures from a trip sponsored perhaps by the Polytechnic Rapid Transit Club. There's one picture of the D types up on the Williamsburg Bridge. One shot of Steve Zabel waving out of the cab window of the Triplex cars. And one shot between 2 cars with Conductor Sam Shifter discussing the finer points of the old cars.
If anyone wants to see them, I'll post them here.
May 15, 1973 ... aside for that having been my 11th birthday, isn't that the same day that Rebecca Morris rode the entire system on one token and wrote about her experience for the Daily News? Do you have that, too?
--Mark
May 15, 1973 ... aside for that having been my 11th birthday, isn't that the same day that Rebecca Morris rode the entire system on one token and wrote about her experience for the Daily News? Do you have that, too?
I've never heard of Rebecca Morris... I kept this page because of the shot of Steve Zabel sticking his head out of the cab window. I don't remember if I belonged to the ERA then, or if I actually knew who he was. In later years, I used to see him with his slides at the ERA shows. I considered him fortunate when he went to work on the subways and very tragic the way things fell apart in his life.
Rebecca Morris was a woman who rode the entire NYC subway on a token and wrote about her experience in the Sunday News, and I think it was in May of 1973. I am not sure if she was a railfan or not. It was one of the first experiences about doing a trip like this ever written for a NY newspaper, I think.
I am only aware of Mr. Zabel from his photographs; I had no idea about how "tragic the way thigns fell apart in his life".
--Mark
OK, how about the front page of Newsday on the same date:Click Here
Check out Salaam's photos that Dave has put up on the web site. He took some very good night shots of the LA Gold line:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-04.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-09.jpg>
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-05.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/losangeles/gold/la-gold-22.jpg
Salaam, how were you taking these shots? Film or digital? Did you have a tripod or monopod? What camera settings did you use? I would love to get night shots as clear and crisp as yours.
I used a sony DSCS30 digital still "cybershot" camera !
my webpages on that 1999 - 2000 series discontinued camera is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dscs30sonydigitalstillcamera/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30/?yguid=43376975
you can see my camera there
also join my webpage
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitaltransitphotography/?yguid=43376975
please post your marta digital posts there
join the group and load em up big time !!
thank you very much i missed this post because i caught it too late!
i also used a cheap tripod i bought from BEST BUY to support it !!
Cool. My camera is broken right now and is in the shop being repaired. I was thinking about buying a monopod becasue it would be easier and faster to setup and take spur of the moment photos. Are they still stable enough to take clear night photos like yours, or would I need a tripod for the best results? (this question is directed to anybody with an answer)
sure ! e mail me again at...........
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
then join my yahoo group on mass rail trainsit
digital transit phoography
post your pics there as many as you want !!
thanks !
The Federal gov't is funding a drill to see how the nation's subway respond to a terrorist attack. MARTA had their drill this weekend.
What other cities have done this already, and where on the system were they doing it? And why wasn't I picked to be one of the victims? That would have been cool :-)
Did the drill involve two trainloads of passengers running around the trains, going "woowoowoowoowoowoowoo?" Ya GOTTA love CNNtown and its own value of selfimportance. Yeah, terrorists WOULD choose Atlanta as a platform for a worldwide political statement.
Hey! The feds made us do it! But yeah, we WOULD think we're that important, because, well, we ARE :-) Isn't Coke the only drink made and only Delta goes anywhere worth going to? Do a news.google.com search for Free Trade Area of the Americas Atlanta, and you'll see how us ATLiens want to be the center of the world, even if it makes NO sense! Just read about the competition between Atlanta and Miami, and you'll see what I mean. We're a bunch of power-hungry mofos.
Hopefully Al Qaeda has stored the link and will leave US alone for a while. :)
It's only good for systems with stations named "College Park"---I guess the DC Metro is next, that is if the train gets there as "scheduled"
:)
What about systems with stations named College, built beneath the College Park?
-Robert King
I was told by the man from Arts for Transit that there will be another mural by Jack Beal on the opposite wall. When that will be wasn't known. That would really be neat.
Perhaps he will expand the study of the boy on the bike and do an entire mosaic devoted to
Heypaul: A Life in Progress
It's my third day in downtown Brooklyn after 18 years in Long Island City. Each morning I've changed from the 7 to something different to see what works best. The increase in commuting time probably only amounts to a half an hour extra- at least without any major delays.
On Thursday the 31st I left home at 6:00 instead of the 6:30 I had been leaving. Took the bus to Main Street terminal, 7 to Court House Square, breakfasted at the Court Square diner (knowing my new office would be cluttered and chaotic) and walked downstairs to the G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. At 7:10 the onslaught of Brooklyn Tech kids hasn't really hit yet, so there wasn't a long line trying to get through the three Metrocard-only turnstiles. Exiting at Hoyt/Scherm, there's a very long passageway (thankfully past a Transit Police precinct) that dumps you on Scherm somewhat east of Hoyt. It's a ten-minute walk to Court between Joralemon and Livingston, including long wait for light at Boerum Place. I arrived around 7:30.
Going home, I walked around the corner into the Borough Hall complex and had to wait over five minutes before a rather crowded Bronx-bound R-62 4 arrived. A lot of people bailed out at Bowling Green, but many more piled on at each stop to Grand Central. The stock exchange reportedly closes at 4:00 every day. Got down the ramp and stairs to the 7 platform just as a Redbird's doors were closing and being denied hearing whether it was local or express. The latter prevailed. Passed my old homebound boarding stop, Court House, at 4:30 sharp- not bad, only twenty minutes later than before. Not a terrible backup getting into Main Street, but a rather long wait for the bus home at a stop where I have a choice of four routes home. Halloween may have had something to do with it, judging from what the dispatchers were saying. Got home at 5:15, a half-hour later than usual.
On Friday the 1st, left home at 6:10. Despite news reports of power failure on upper WPR, took 7 to Grand Central for downtown express to Borough Hall. PA on 4/5/6 platform was advising people headed to Flatbush to take 4 to Nevins for 2 or 5. Very crowded (for 7:00) R-62 4 arrived in a couple minutes; held for over five minutes along with downtown 6 across platform. Inexplicably crawled to Union Square, then slowed again for most of the Joralemon tube. Seemingly normal number of uptown trains passed the other way. Arrived at 7:40.
Going home, walked to Hoyt/Scherm. Queens-bound G arrived almost instantly. Held at 21st for over five minutes waiting for slot to clear at Court Square. Climbed up to 7 platform at around 4:35, just missing what turned out to be an express. Got home at 5:25- ANOTHER long wait for bus!!
Today, left at 6:20- getting bold. Heard on news of previous delays on 4 "between Fulton Street and Broadway"(?!) lifting, so took 7 to 5th Avenue; walked through interestingly renovated passageway to downtown F, which arrived immediately. Most people exited at 42nd and 34th; remainder of ride to Jay Street very roomy- and fast. Noticed unusual fifties-style Art Deco 'SUBWAY' sign fixtures on street level near Transit HQ entrance. Fulton Street an absolute ghost town, with only a couple of buses. Arrived at 7:40.
Will probably go home through Grand Central again. Tomorrow's a half-holiday (don't have to get son at after-school), so with trains possibly less crowded, maybe I can experiment with changing at Times Square for the 2/3, or taking the F/7 combo home.
There certainly is more life in downtown Brooklyn than there was on the LIC waterfront- not to mention eateries. And, while this belongs on Bustalk, there's plenty of them to observe from every Brooklyn depot except UP.
It's gonna take a lot of getting used to.
It sounds so far as if the F is the best choice, with the G a reasonably close second. Not much point in an all-IRT route, however.
If they ever wire subway tunnels for cellphones with broad band internet (which mind you, is a development I DON'T relish) I wonder if Shadow Traffic could do subway reports the way they do traffic reports, ie. Heather or Joe Nolan or whoever it is would warn people about sick passengers at 59th and Lex, or police action at 23rd on the BMT--avoid those lines...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The radio stations already do a transit report. It's of just as poor quality as the road reports.
>>> I wonder if Shadow Traffic could do subway reports the way they do traffic reports, <<<
Better yet would be the MTA itself making the announcements throughout parts of the system which would be affected. Out here they even post any station with a non operating elevator at stations along the line.
Tom
Out here they even post any station with a non operating elevator at stations along the line.
New York could save a step and just post the name of every station with an elevator.
Actually, a remarkable proportion of NYCT elevators DO work.
I could understand not relishing the installation of cell phone transmitters in the subway (I feel the opposite), but what is wrong with broadband internet if it was to be (unlikely) implemented?
Don't judge traveling on Tuesday with school (public) closed and most city offices off as well (though I assume your working and taking the floater holiday as I am).
Why did NJTransit decided to close the stations down, like the Rowe St. station?...he friend just moved into a condo right near by and now it bites that that station is now closed. Also there does not seem to be any weekend service to that area at all...maybe I should just hop on the Newark subway to Grove St and get a cab then.....any thoughts?
Your friend should have asked around. The project (Montclair-Boonton Line Connection) that lead to the closing of Rowe St. took several years from planning to completion. It was no secret.
A condominium near Rowe St?
I don't think so. Are you thinking of the Davy St apartments?
In any case, the #92 bus serves the area (runs on Belleville Av), so you can take the Newark Subway to Branch Brook Park then the 92.
Yes, the closing of those stations does bite, suck, and whatever other sexual act it does... but DeCamp bus lines is trying to pick up some of the business that used those stations. I already wrote a letter to DeCamp with a proposal for a new interstate line that roughly follows the old #55, but haven't heard back from them yet.
In case you're wondering, the route I proposed would start at the 41st St Terminal (of course;-), run express on the NJ Turnpike and I-280, take the Clifton Av exit in Newark, turn right on Clifton, right on Bloomfield, left onto Mt. Prospect (which becomes Union Av), left onto Belleville Av, then either
1) turn left onto Broad St and terminate at Glenwood/Conger (opposite the Glenwood Diner and near Troy Towers)
OR
2) proceed straight up Belleville Av (which becomes Glen Ridge Av), turn right onto Grove St, left onto Claremont Av, left onto N Fullerton Av, right onto Bloomfield Av, right onto Park Av and terminate at the YMCA.
I think option 2 is obviously the better choice, but I proposed option 1 with reality in mind...
Yes...as in Montegomery Street....towards the end part of the street that borders Belleville.
Any Chicago SUbtalker, pelase e-mail me off-site. I am planning a vacation in CHicxago and need some specific info about CTA and METRA.
If you plan to take a camera along, be sure to stop at EVERY public parking garage along the Loop for pictures. And spend some time in the garage across the street from tower 18 - go to the 3rd level. WOW!!
--Mark
If you're looking for schedule information, I would suggest:
www.transitchicago.com (for the CTA)
www.metrarail.com (for Metra)
Also, for an incredible amount of information about the stations, lines, rolling stock and lore of the Chicago elevated system, I highly recommend
www.chicago-l.org
I would also highly recommend the Illinois Railway Museum, but that's another story and we're closed anyway... :-)
Frank Hicks
You will probably find what you need at
http://www.chicago-L.org/
Sort of nycsubway.org's 'sister site'
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you are planning to railfan the whole CTA L, the Douglas branch of the Blue Line and the Skokie Swift (Yellow line-the only line with an overhead catenary) are both closed on the weekends. As far as scenic CTA routes, ride the Brown line which has numerous street crossings on the western leg, and has fantastic views of the skyline from the Hancock building to the loop. The Metra electric South Shore branch runs on street median ROW similar to a light rail line, but with a bi-level emu coaches.
"The Metra electric South Shore branch runs on street median ROW similar to a light rail line, but with a bi-level emu coaches."
I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're confusing the Metra Electric (former Illinois Central electrification) with the South Shore Line (owned by the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District, not Metra). They both depart from Randolph Street Station and share trackage for a ways south from downtown, but the South Shore splits off to go to Indiana while the Metra Electric goes to Blue Island and University Park. The Metra Electric operates with bi-level EMU cars but has no street running; the South Shore uses single-level EMU cars and still does feature a small amount of street running. The cars are not intermixed.
Frank Hicks
The Illinois Central (Metra) Electric's branch line on 71st Street is the South Chicago branch. The original MU cars carried signs that said "South Shore Dist." since the trains passed though the South Shore neighborhood. Of course, this is distinct from the South Shore Line (CSS&SB), today's NICTD.
AFAIK the only remaining street running on the South Shore is through Michigan City. There used to be street running through East Chicago until September of 1956, when the bypass along the Toll Road opened, and in South Bend until July of 1970, when the terminus was moved to the western outskirts near the Bendix plant. I still remember seeing trains rumbling down the center of LaSalle Ave. in downtown South Bend.
I believe that the South Shore District Branch of the former Illinois Central was the old name of the branch that is now Metra Electric South Chicago Branch.
Although it does not actually ride on the streets, it uses the street median along 71th street.
Do you know if 370 Jay St. Would be open tommorow? I would like to fill out an application and get on a list for C/R. You guys have any advice for me? What it entails etc.?
The advice is to never listen to whomever told you to do that again.
C/R for NYCT is a civil service exam, for LIRR and MNRR it is a promotion and that is not the right address for those agencies either.
You need to buy "The Chief" each week. Itts civil service exams and where to go to get the applicaton to tatke the test. You have to pay to take the test. If you do not qualify to take the test you lose your money. If for some reason they do not select you to take the test then you get your money back if you do qualify for the job.
ie- Let's say I apply for the signal maintainer test. I'd have to send a money order. I woudl not qualify and would not get my money back . Now let's pretend I have the experience and they cancel the test- I'd get my money back.
The Chief costs 50cents
You need to buy "The Chief" each week. It lists civil service exams and where to go to get the applicaton to tatke the test. You have to pay to take the test. If you do not qualify to take the test you lose your money. If for some reason they do not select you to take the test then you get your money back if you do qualify for the job.
ie- Let's say I apply for the signal maintainer test. I'd have to send a money order. I woudl not qualify and would not get my money back . Now let's pretend I have the experience and they cancel the test- I'd get my money back.
The Chief costs 50cents
hey do you have any idea how much the C/R test would cost for me to take the exam?
$50 or $55 is the cost for most civil service exams.
I rode home on a set of Redbirds on the #5 this evening. Lead car S/B was 8997. When the train pulled into Flatbush I was intrigued by the fact that the normal rust-spots and corrosion on these type of cars was cleaned up. Areas were re-spayed and I was even surprised when I looked at 8779 from the end -- brand new hoses to the brake shoes and the couplers (with new fittings).
Anyone have any info on this resto work for this set would be much apppreciated...Stef, SubBus, Pelham Bay Dave...I could use your input...
Everything brand new: hoses, brake shoes, group box contactor tips, lightbulbs, motor brushes and so much more replaced during inspection. There is a red urethane insulation paint that matches carbody color...just duct tape and spray. Everything gets lubricated with 'TA green monkey oil,' no squeaks. Sadly, only cracked glass gets replaced...the rest of the scratchitti remains. These trainsets have TWO MILLION MILES on them. The crew does their best to maintain a decent MDBF despite the trainsets age.
This is the work of the East 180th Street Crew at 239th Street Yard.
Most of the crew now came from the SubSchool Car Inspector class of September 17th, 2001 from which I came. I am a lead tech, I work troubles and backfill in this crew and always lend a hand when called.
You posters notice the good work the crew does...I only wish Jay Street had open eyes. I am proud to carry the label '180/239th.'
CI Peter
Peter, thanks for your input. Yes, you guys did an A-1 job on making the cars look new again. (Even seemed that they got a washing as well as an all-around touching up).
Keep up the great work! And thanks for lending a hand with the MOW Dept. at Branford on Sunday.
Thank you my friend. The crew is not making the trainsets look new but RUNNING!!! Personally, I hate the Bondo/steel wool/duct tape scheming and welded plates often interfere with the door pockets.
Maybe MOW is my calling....holidays, some necessary home maintainance
and a few other situations are coming up. Holding my breath till December 15th. CI Peter
I have no info on it but things are going kind of crazy with these redbirds. I now spotted the 10 car Pelham R29 at Unionport its just sitting there. Also a 10 car R33 from Jerome has been at Westchester YD for 2 weeks just sitting there.
Also today a Redbird broke down No C/R Indication so what are they going to do reef it or fix it.
In case anyone is interested, I've got a PATH Car squeeze toy listed on EBay. It's about 6" long, represents one of the later three-door PATH cars. It came from a manufacturer of extruded moulding products, has no PATH logos.
Look under seller "sjh50" or search by "PATH squeeze"
Steve - if you came to NY and attended the NJ transit festival in Hoboken on 9/29 you could have gotten the real thing - with the "P" and the www and the 800# printed on it for free.
They were supposed to be given out only to kids. I told the guy that I have two kids at home so I have a little train.
Conveniently forget to tell the guy that my kids are 24 & 26 lol!
I went down to Collingswod, NJ this past Sunday to visit a church. If you don't know where this is, it is slightly to the right of Camden, and geographically below Philadelphia. It is right outside the suburb of Camden. Cherry Hill station is about a 5 minute drive from here.
When I was walking down Park Av., I heard a distant but noisy rumble of MU cars slowing down and stopping. About 15 seconds later, they would start up again. The funny thing was, they sounded like electric motors installed on Arrow III MU's.
There is one track that has catenary wire (to the best of my memory) and third rail as an overpass on the main road right outside of Park Av. The Atlantic City Rail Line is about 5 minutes away.
Could this be the PATCO?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Yeah, that's PATCO only there is no catenary and its two track. Which Church were you visiting? Why hadn't you ever seen PATCO before? Its pretty hard to miss.
I was visiting BFT Baptist Church at 900 Park Av. Yes, I have seen PATCO before when I have rode the Atlantic City Rail LIne on July 4th, 2001. The cars are not too bad, but I think they look a little dull from the usual side and the front and back view.
BTW, what is PATCO's top speed?
What is the Atlantic City Rail Line's top speed?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Also, to add, (I'm not sure if one will know), between what two station stops is PATCO found right outside Park Av.? (The two tracks appear as a dull, concrete flat bridge overpass over a main road.
PATCO trains go 65 on the Main Line and 40 max in the subways. The overpass was probably between Ferry Ave and Collingswood station.
PATCO trains did 75 when they first started running, but something wore out fast at that speed, so top speed has been set at 65 ever since. The Collingswood station is close to where Pete's church was, so the bridge that he saw could have been on either side (Ferry Ave or Westmont) of the station.
first off i would like to say that the rennovation of the 42nd street 8th avenue station is a major flop. it looks like a patch up job. but something always bugs me about the stations. when in rennovation, or installation, there is drilling or screwing that goes on. after that happens, there is this yellow pustule colored slime or paste, that oozes out of the walls. sometimes it leaves a puddle of ooze on the surface. can anybody tell me what it is, where it comes from or how does it form?
first off i would like to say that the rennovation of the 42nd street 8th avenue station is a major flop. it looks like a patch up job. but something always bugs me about the stations. when in rennovation, or installation, there is drilling or screwing that goes on. after that happens, there is this yellow pustule colored slime or paste, that oozes out of the walls. sometimes it leaves a puddle of ooze on the surface. can anybody tell me what it is, where it comes from or how does it form
It's probably some type of sealant.
oh. it looks so neeeeaaaasssty!
Maybe from the sex shops upstairs! sorry, hehe
Chances are that the 'yellow pus colored stuff' is uncured urethane foam sealant improperly applied by a subcontractor. This stuff is nasty if you make contact with it without proctective and/or discardable clothing. It is GLUE, period. AND it does not come off easily....someone fell asleep at the switch. I know firsthand...subcontractors damage to my car was immediately assesed by Hartford Insurance at $ 752.49 with my personal vehicle lawfully parked upon the city street in front of my shop. Sixteen hours of hand labor to clean the vehicle up....fourty plus CIs cars damaged...a few got $ 175 damages from the subcontractor...one MS1 got a facefull of the glue. Stuff does catch mice. CI Peter
There are a lot of variants of the urethane foam. All of the stuff us consumers can buy is the slow-cure stuff (usually 1+ hour to tack-free, 4 to 24 hours for complete cure). You can buy it at places like Home Depot in a variety of expansion ratios - and by the way, "Gorilla Glue" is the same stuff in a very-low-expansion version. If it is still uncured it can be cleaned up with acetone or similar solvents; once cured it is impossible to get rid of.
But what were they doing with it outdoors - it has almost no ultraviolet resistance - it'll turn dark brown and crumbly within months!
There are extremely-fast-cure (minutes) variants of this stuff, used for roofing (but it needs a UV protective sealant on top) and wall insulation.
Another type of yellow slime is cable pulling lubricant, a disgusting wax/soap-like substance. But that doesn't harden.
I've used almost every woodworkers urethane adhesive save 'Gorilla Glue' (it's not cheap.) I'll take scrap walnut, run it throught the bandsaw and glue the pieces up with seven tons of pressure to manufacture solid blanks with common grain to produce clock bodies and office accesories....no glue lines!!! The stuff used to seal up the roof has almost no ultraviolet resistance, did turn dark brown, flake off and pieces have already crumbled to the street. Overspray on our vehicles was a big secret...use acetone to remove 'the glue' combined with street dirt and steel dust and you strip off the clear coat and color coat. BTW: the wood workers urethane adhesive expands more than you think....what I used ordinary clamping had nice big fat glue lines. The biggest problem is getting waste glue off your fingers...that is what a belt sander was invented for. The stuff used for pulling wire makes for a nice bagel. CI Peter
It really is pus. When the walls were redone, they probably covered up an undetected infection. ;-)
Where would i enquire to take the civil service test so i can be a C/R for the NYC Subway system. Any advice , requirements etc. Would be greatly appreciated
Go to the website -> transit -> employement -> List of upcoming Civil Service Exams.
Unless its newly posted, I don't think there's an upcoming exam for C/R.
You may find something else interesting coming up.
212 268 2200
used to be the number for a recording of upcoming exams.
Vota Boriqua Liberacion!!!! My friend, there is an ongoing hiring freeze in TA but keep a daily eye on MTA and NYC/DCAS. NYCTA could concieveably offer C/R and T/O open competitive examinations at any time despite a hiring freeze in anticipation of relief. IF your present employment stinks and you have the passion for the rail, go for it despite any risks. TA work is excellent work. CI peter
You are going to have a long wait for C/R. They just had an Exam about 3 years ago. There where over 8,000 on the list.
Tuesday is election day. Please make sure to cast your vote for the man or woman or Third Party of your choice. And if you don't think that your vote counts just look at the last election. So get up off your BU and pull the level on Row B (for Standards) or Row D (for Triplex) or Row G (for Gibbs) but vote. This country is supposed to be the showcase of liberty and yet we're lucky to get a voter turnout of 50%. In Iraq 100% of the electorate turns out or else and they don't have any problem with hanger chads, dimpled chads, and pregnant chads. So go vote. Don't worry, subtalk will be here when you get back.
A Public Service Announcement
Larry, RedbirdR33
Vote early, vote often! :)
ONE day to go, then Unca Selkirk has to get a new sidewalk act. :(
If you don't vote for who you want,
don't bitch about who you get!
If you don't vote for who you want, don't bitch about who you get!
The only problem is that they never seem to offer "None of the above"!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't THAT be great? Sure would put an end to the losers they keep offering. I'm in favor of a DRAFT where citizens are randonly scooped off the street and thrown into a congressional office and forced to serve 4 years. I'd bet things would be very different since this "all volunteer congress" ain't been cutting it. :)
Wouldn't bother me as long as the compenstion stays the same. Ain't gonna work for free.
Helluva pension plan. MUCH better than da army ...
The only problem is that they never seem to offer "None of the above"!
If they did, it would always come in first, and control all branches of the government.
Seriously, you can ask for a paper ballot and add whatever name you like. My father did in 1988, putting in Ronald Reagan.
Well, since this is Selkirk's last day of politicking, hope y'all don't mind if I whine and mope anyway. I *always* vote for the wrong person. :)
Hope you're still in a good "moo-d"
Rim shot!
Yeah, I'm about to head out and pull some levers for McCall in a few. Just wish I could pull an anti-Bruno lever, but as is the case with goobermint here in NYS, there ISN'T anyone to vote for. Bruno is running unopposed just like any good Marxist republican.
Bruno is running unopposed
But can he get 100% like that guy in the mideast ;-)
I asked ... seems turnout is INSANELY low around his district. And woe be to those who DIDN'T vote for the Joe. We may be upstate, but good old Joe Stalin is alive and well and majority leader in the NYS Senate. But that's your NYS Republicans for ya - "competition is good, as long as it ain't in the voting booths."
Pull levers? You mean they've still got the old mechanical voting machines in your neck of the woods? I liked those machines. Their levers sounded a lot like the trigger caps on the R-1/9s.
And row "A" goes "click" ... row "B" goes "clack" ... row "C" goes "clunk" and you wonder why your property and school taxes went up for voting wrong? Yep, "Microsoft VOTE SP2 (tm)" solves THAT problem ... just ask Florida, or Georgia, or Colorado. :(
Remember the Brighton Ballot!!
--Mark
I'll be voting row "R", slots 16 and 44
We're all doomed.
The following appears on the TfL (Tube) website FAQ page:
"Why the Tube isn't 24 hour
If LU did introduce 24 hour running the entire system would come to a halt within days.
The problem is engineering. Systems that do operate every hour of the day and night, like New York, can do so because they have a four tunnel structure.
This means that not only can engineering staff and machinery be quickly ferried to the point they're needed, trains can also be routed through the extra parallel tunnels.
Therefore there is no need to close part or all of the system in order to effect repairs. In contrast, the Tube has only two tunnels, the ones through which the trains run.
In order to perform any engineering work on the track or signals train service obviously must come to a halt.
So that's why the Tube must close down for a few hours every night. Remember that the next time a politician promises, in exchange for your vote, he or she will have the system running 24 hours a day."
Couple of questions. First, for those with knowledge of London, does this explanation make any sense? Aren't there altenate routings that could be used if LU had to have "GOs" on weekends like NYC?
Second, what do they mean NYC has a "4-tunnel" system? Are they referring to express tracks?
This explanation is perfectly correct but how other systems cope i.e. Path I have no knowledge. There are very few alternative routings. GO's are usually shutdowns with shuttle buses. Yes I think they mean the four track express system.
Simon
Swundon UK
>>> This explanation is perfectly correct but how other systems cope i.e. Path I have no knowledge <<<
I suppose part of the problem is the close clearances in the tubes. Is there room for anyone to safely be between stations when the trains are running? NYC used to do major track work on active tracks, back in the day, but the NY tracks are such that they could work, then step aside when a train passed.
If it is possible for workers to be in the tubes, some kind of owl service could be instituted, with possibly one train every half hour, with the drivers knowing in advance where work was being done. LU probably would not think the benefit worth the effort.
Tom
>>>>>>>>Is there room for anyone to safely be between stations when the trains are running?
Absolutely not. 99% of the London tubes would be considered "No Clearance".
"If it is possible for workers to be in the tubes, some kind of owl service could be instituted, with possibly one train every half hour, with the drivers knowing in advance where work was being done. LU probably would not think the benefit worth the effort."
What about LU simply "single-tracking" it (while workers maintain the other track)? Is the trackage not set up for that?
What about LU simply "single-tracking" it (while workers maintain the other track)? Is the trackage not set up for that?
Not at all. In the tubes, distances between switches can be many miles.
"This explanation is perfectly correct but how other systems cope i.e. Path I have no knowledge."
One doesn't hear much of PATH GOs that close a whole leg of the system. But I guess they must happen.
Pre-9/11, they could have closed the whole WTC leg or the whole 33rd St leg and told people to use the other for Manhattan access. Pieces within NJ could be served by shuttle buses for a whole weekend if necessary.
"This explanation is perfectly correct"
Actually, of course, while correct this explanation is extremely self-serving. Surely they don't work on every line every night. Say that 5% of the system needs work at a given time. Just concentrate on a few lines at a time, and close them at night until the work is done. People who need the system at night would rather have 80-90% of it open than 0%.
The real reason no doubt is that it would cost more money and require a fare increase.
Of course, that's exactly what's done here on the lines that don't have extra tracks, and sometimes even on lines that do.
Another option (also used here), depending on the circumstances, is single-tracking.
Aren't there altenate routings that could be used if LU had to have "GOs" on weekends like NYC?
Not enough of them. The service which could be run in this fashion could hardly be described as worthwhile. There could be a wonderful two line system with Baker St - Moor Park and Gloucester Rd - Acton Town
what do they mean NYC has a "4-tunnel" system
I think you should read 'track' for 'tunnel' throughout this extract. With very few exceptions, Underground lines are two track only. The norm is that the deep level 'tube' lines use seperate single track tunnels, the older sub-surface lines a single two-track tunnel.
Aren't there altenate routings that could be used if LU had to have "GOs" on weekends like NYC?
Generally not.
The sub-surface lines do form an inter-connected network, similar to but sparser than the NY Subway, and there are some opportunities for alternate routings.
The tube lines were concieved very much as self-contained operations, and there are very few track connections between lines.
The tube lines were concieved very much as self-contained operations, and there are very few track connections between lines.
Pretty much the case. The Jubilee Line North of Baker St can be operated as a branch of the Bakerloo Line and North of Finchley Rd as a branch of the Metropolitan Line. The Northern Line of course has the via Bank / via Charing X choice.
Why couldn't they just "single track" portions in order to bypass emergency work/broken trains? I know that's what DC does. There was an emergency at the Union Station station on the Red Line and the Metro kept running by alternating trains in opposite directions on the same track in order to bypass the station.
Come to think of it, a few years ago I took the subway into Chicago from O'Hare on a Saturday and we came to a complete stop for 20 minutes. Then a train passed going the other way and soon we were moving again. Clearly a case of single tracking, probably for the whole weekend.
Because lets face it. Washington's system opened in 1976 while London's opened up more than 100 years earlier.
For the sub-surface lines in London, single-tracking is a viable option which is sometimes used for weekend track work. However, it is not an option for the tubes considering the vast distances that exist between switches.
When they need to pour concrete or do something major, an overnight repair isn't going to do it They need to close for the weekend just like everyone else. I don't know: do they single track for long distances and provide really infrequent service, or do they shut down the whole line?
They shut down the affected section and provide "rail replacement buses" aka shuttle buses. This is also commonly done whenever there is major engineering work (aka track work) to be performed on the sub-surface lines.
Whenever shuttle bus service is provided, the LU does not skimp on the buses. There are many abound, just like when NY has shuttle buses replacing rail service.
The London Tube FAQ page has a long explanation why they don't A/C their trains -- basically that the tunnels are too small to fit retrofitted trains and the A/C units would overheat the stations.
But then they make this astonishing statement:
"Only the most recent metro systems, those of Hong Kong and Singapore, have air conditioning on their trains and, even there, they are experiencing great difficulties in making it work."
Can they actually believe this?
Yes, it's quite incredible! Maybe e-mailing LT would be an idea and mentioning NYC. However, I don't think AirCon would be a valuable investment in the UK as the temperature hovers in the low 50s for three quarters of the year ;-).
However, I don't think AirCon would be a valuable investment in the UK as the temperature hovers in the low 50s for three quarters of the year
On the contrary, I think it would be a great advantage. In summer LU trains (esp tube trains) can be overpoweringly hot. Whilst in winter the contrast between outside temperature and tube temperature (and the fact that you are likely dressed for winter weather) can feel worse.
More significant is the point made on LU's web site about the effect of train air-conditioning on station and tunnel temperatures. I have no experience of NY Subways prior to the introduction of train a/c but I know from experience how hot the stations can get.
Has it always been this way, or has this got worse since train a/c was introduced?.
"Has it always been this way, or has this got worse since train a/c was introduced?."
Stations are hotter than they used to be. They have put in fans and even some station AC in select really awful places like GCT.
However, I remember back in the 60s there were warnings that if they put AC into the trains the stations would become totally unbearable. The effect is less than was feared. Also, a brief wait in a hot station isn't so bad if you can cool down in the train.
It's gotten worse since A/C was introduced. All that heat produced by the A/C motors running has to go somewhere ... so it's into the tunnels. On the IRT, especifally the contract 1 lines, it can get stifling because the tunnels were waterproofed with tar, and that doesn't let the heat out either. Also, the tunnels are seperated with beams and not concrete walls, so there is less of a piston effect when trains enter and leave stations, something that is very common in London's tube stations. This piston effect can also be used to ventilate the stations.
--Mark
They said the same thing about the IRT cars years ago but somehow they found a way.
I don't think NYC subway would be usable by most people in this day and age without A/C...you just get used to it.
Of course it is quite true knowing about the conservation of energy laws of physics that the heat has to go somewhere...mostly into the tunnels and stations which makes the a/c cars feel even more wonderful.
I might take issue with the question of A/C on the Underground. I know that when I am there in the summer, the conditons on many cars are very uncomfortable as is true often in my hotel rooms where you have to pay an arm and a leg to get an A/c in your room; even thought the temperature is rarely all that much above 20.
Remember, it'sa the humidity also that makes one feel uncomfortable and that A/C helps to relieve.
Even the first part of the statement is, how shall we say, "careless" with the truth. The PATH tubes are just about the same size as the London Tubes (even if the stations have a little more clearance) and PATH has been running air-conditioned cars since the K series arrived under the old H&M management in 1958. So just in New York you've got a subway with tight clearances built before World War I that has now been running AC stock for roughly half of its existance.
Retrofitting might be a problem because of the lack of space under the cars, as with the R-33WFs on the IRT, but the statement itself sounds like something they're trying to pass off on the public in hopes no one will actually bother fact-checking them on.
What happens when you don't get to the terminal in time for your next trip?(Ex. Signal problem caused congestion from Grand Concourse to 241 Street this evening). And also, when you get to the terminal at 5:15 when your reporting time is...let's say 4:45 because of delays?
Most of the time the dispatchers will jump another conductor or train operator head to make the trip. This is if the C/R or T/O hasn't reported in time to make his/her scheduled trip on that particular job. The thing is you had better have a legitimate reason for not showing up to work on time; such as what you stated, that the train you were on was running late due to some delay in the system. Being caught in traffic is not considered acceptable; you are given a free transportation pass to ride the subways and buses. If your reason for being late is deemed not acceptable, you will either have your time cut to when you actually reported, you will be written up on disciplinary charges, or you will be sent home and charged a day without pay. And if your lateness causes a trip to be ABDed, or dropped, then heads will roll. Particularly, yours. The TA doesn't stand for dropped trips without a very good reason.
Usually if your not back in the Right time to make your scheduled trip the dispatcher will tell you to hang tight.which means dont stray to far cause after traveling for the last 2 hours your going right back within next 10 -20 minutes.
>>> If your reason for being late is deemed not acceptable, you will ... have your time cut to when you actually reported, <<<
In many private industries your time would be cut to when you arrived, even with a good excuse.
Tom
In Stations the policy is the same. They do accept (or did in my case) NJT delays when I formed a taxi pool to Newark Penn and kept them informed via cell phone. I lost no pay and got to skip the stations I missed by going to wherfe I would be and pick up my shcedle from there.
I was docked only once when I misunderstood the station i was to go to and went to the wrong station- I lost only 15 minutes.
Consider yourself lucky. In general, RTO will not accept a problem with the SI Ferry as a legit excuse (exceptions dependent on the TD and what your job is). And, on occasion, I've had a problem when a NYCT bus on SI fails to show on schedule (or at all, for that matter). How do you identify a bus that doesn't show up?
Has anyone spotted the new ALP-46 & Comet V Equipment on the NJT Rails lately? And how many are in revenue service? All Information is greatly appreciated.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I saw a train of Comet V's on Track 3 at Newark Penn Station a couple of hours ago on Long Branch bound train # 3201. I did not notice the type of engine, but I did see ALP-46's this past Friday (11/1) running on both the M&E and the Coast Line. One was pulling Comet V's and one was pulling Comet 3's and 4's.
I have seen an ALP46 pushing a Coast Line train of eight Comet IV's at Newark Airport Station several months ago.
I've also seen an ALP44 pulling a set of 3 Comet V's at Orange Station westbound, most likely headed for Gladstone about 2 months ago.
I have seen a whole pack of about 50 estimated Comet V's and about ten sighted ALP46's in the same area, flooding the front yard of the MMC while riding the Waterfront Connection the same day I saw the 3 Comet V's.
The Comet V's and ALP46's are running on the Monclair, M & E, NEC and NJC lines. They have only operated in revenue service on the Gladstone Branch once and that was on October 19th when the Steeple Chase took place. Your best bet to catch one is on the Montclair Line.
The November issue of RailPace has a couple of shots of it/them, page 26, 27 & front cover. An article talks about the new Montclair Connection, including a small map .... enjoy
I've gotten to see the ALP-46 up close a few times even though I've yet to get my cab ride. Yesterday, I did get a copy of the ALP-46 engineers manual from my counterpart at NJ Transit.
Does anyone know when the ERA library/collection at Grand Central Terminal is open? I have an appointment in Mid-town tomorrow, and I'd thought I might stop in and browse for a few hours.
It's not that kind of library. It is a private research collection.
Like the NY public library research libraries, it is not open-shelf
and it is not "browsable". You'd need to make an appointment with
one of the ERA librarians. I'm not an officer of the ERA but
hopefully one will see this and can give you the phone #.
ERA
212-986-4482
Open Monday evenings, but you may be able to make an appointment for another time.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thank you. I stopped by the Grand Central Transit Museum Store this afternoon before going up (and not yet knowing the details). Met all sorts of interesting and helpful railfan folk just in the general vincinity of the store!
Thanks all!
I was there the other day nice store they had a few used train numbers for $8
After a subtalker posted here that when viewing from a railfan window of a northbound (J), you can see the Canal St. realignment, I though I'd have a look myself.
When approaching Canal St, there's a timer which slows the train so you can get a good look at the tunnel. The northbound track seems to have a natural lineup with the new northbound track and the tunnel structure looks as though this track was meant to follow this route. In other words, perhaps this portion of the Centre St. subway between Canal and Chambers was designed as a four track subway instead of the two tracks that are there today. Maybe the BRT planned on a four track line, but opted for two tracks approaching Canal St. Take a ride on a northbound (J) looking through the railfan window and see for yourself.
Some may say that the BRT planned the Centre St. subway as is today. but you never know what the BRT may have first planned. Your thoughts.
Bill "Newkirk"
I found this map in the 1914 Moody's Investors Manual - It gives some insight into the original plans.
1914 BRT Proposals
Very interesting map, even shows turnouts for a Central Park West subway. However, map shows the line as is today, but when riding a (J), you'll see what I meant about the tunnel construction. You gotta see for yourself.
Bill "Newkirk"
You missed the obvious...look in the direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. The line over the bridge connects to the outer tracks on the loop, northbound to the Williamsburgh Bridge. Tw tracks still terminate at Canal St from the Williamsburgh. The tracks from the Montague tunnel DON'T go to the Williamsburgh, the go to the Manhattan Bridge. There's no through connection shown on the map from the tunnel to the Williamsburgh Bridge.
-Hank
It looks like the Fulton El was supposed to run over the Brooklyn Bridge and run via the Nassau/Centre line then back over the Williamsburg. It lookks like the Myrtle El was also supposed to run over the Brooklyn Bridge (it's a little hard to make out from the map). Is that true? that would have been really neat. From Myrtle-Bway you could have taken a Myrtle El train, down Myrtle over the BB, over the WB, and back to Myrtle-Bway via Broadway/Brooklyn! I guess the similar could have been done from Atlantic (current L line) - Fulton El-BB-Nassau-WB-Broadway-back to Atlantic.
Joe Brennan discusses this here. The line opened in August 1913 with all trains using the west platform. In September 1914 a new northbound track brought northbound trains to the east platform. The change being made now is a return to the 1913 setup.
Correct. The wall and walk-across platform that they are currently removing was not original. It was added very near the beginning, but when a train rolls through that "express" track there in the the near future, it will not be the first time. About 90 years ago, a train was able to do that. That original setup didn't last long though.
I see the TA "spruced" up old water damaged Chambers St. The ceiling above the platorm and mezzanine was painted white and above the tracks, painted brown. Wow, I am so impressed (sarcasm).
When I look at the old abandoned northbound outer platform, I assume that the last time there were revenue passengers using it was before the Nassau St. subway was open and Chambers St. was a bustling terminus as opposed to a station. Am I correct or wrong ?
Also the walled up southbound outer platform raises this question. I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ? <<<
Probably wrong, since the old IRT Worth Street side platform station which is north of Brooklyn Bridge co-existed with Chambers Street while the old side platform was there.
Tom
Old Tom,
Any idea why the southbound outer platform was walled up amd not the northbound ? I'm wondering what's behind that wall.
Bill "Newkirk"
Isn't the uptown #6 train just behind that wall?
--Mark
Yes, behind the north end of the station.
Towards the south end there is still some platform there, you can see its edge.
wayne
When I look at the old abandoned northbound outer platform, I assume that the last time there were revenue passengers using it was before the Nassau St. subway was open and Chambers St. was a bustling terminus as opposed to a station. Am I correct or wrong ?
I believe the "local" platforms at Chambers were to be used for unloading, while the "in use" platforms were to be used for loading trains. The center platform had that "unloading" function also. Remember that the two pairs of tracks at Chambers go to/come from different lines than the other. Even though they look like "express" tracks, they were really seperate lines running next to each other. I forgot the layout, but look for the "I can see the light" thread going on, and there is a map posted in that thread that shows how Chambers was supposed to be layed out.
Also the walled up southbound outer platform raises this question. I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ?
Your assumptions are correct. The Broad Street bound local platform at has been destroyed to make way for the extension at the Lexington Brookly Bridge platform. The 6 line tracks are on the other side of that wall walling off the "no longer there" local platform at Chambers Street.
Actually, you can see one of the columns from the old Chambers street walled up local platform in the tunnel at Lex's BB station!
In this photo from Joe Brennan's site, you can see one side of this former column, and at Chambers looking at the walled off platform you can see the other. This column used to be on the walled off local platform at Chambers and now it is along the track wall of the local Lexington line at BB!
Here is a quote from his site:
"The west side platform is walled up, and much of it was destroyed to make room for the expansion of Brooklyn Bridge station. The tiled columns project a little bit from the new wall, except the last one which is flush with the wall. You can see the other side of that last column...from Brooklyn Bridge station! Go to the uptown end of the uptown platform, and look into the tunnel where the 6 train goes. Just outside the station, on the side away from the platform, is the column shown here. It's dirty, but it has a light on it for the route request buttons."
For more info on Chambers see here:
Brennan's site
The question I've always had about Chambers St is how far south do the express tracks go leaving Chambers St? I understand it becomes 1 track and reaches a bumper block. What was the original use for that trackage?
I think those tracks were originally planned to run over the Brooklyn Bridge and connect to the Myrtle, Lexington, Fulton and 5th Avenue Els.
Considering the express tracks go down and the local tracks go up, south of Chambers St, I'd think the local tracks were to have connected to the Brooklyn Bridge.
Considering the express tracks go down and the local tracks go up, south of Chambers St, I'd think the local tracks were to have connected to the Brooklyn Bridge.
No, I believe, at Chambers, what is the current Broad Street bound "local" track and what appears to be the Broad St bound "express" track were meant to run from Canal Street and then over the Brooklyn Bridge. The Eastern tracks at chambers were meant to come from Fulton, and then run over the Manhattan Bridge (which actually did connect until the late 60's).
Now forgetting that the real original layout for Canal St was for the two western tracks in 1913 were meant to go south, consider Canal what it became with the two stub center tracks-(the layout at Canal is a whole other story-this is a later plan-the plans for the line changed many times). Considering Chambers Street, what is the current Nassau Line was actually meant to be two seperate lines, meeting at Chambers St (and a third one terminating on the center tracks at Canal).
One line was to run:
WillyB-Essex-Bowery-Canal(outer tracks)-Chambers(western tracks)-Brooklyn Bridge-Fulton and Myrtle Els in Brooklyn.
Another was to run:
Manhattan Bridge-Chambers St(eastern tracks)-Fulton Street-Broad Street-Montague Tunnel.
The current: Bowery-Canal Street-Chambers St-Fulton St-Broad Street route was not to be possible with that arrangement.
The reason that the Nassau Line seems so screwy, and has so much unused infastructure is because the planned layout for it has changed so many times, and the actual layout has changed so many time. You could write a whole book on the Nassau Line and it's connections, and planned connections alone!
Click here for the map that may help illustrate this a bit more:
1914 BRT Proposals
Thanks for the interesting map!
Your welcome, but the credit actually goes to someone who posted it in the "I can see the light" thread going on now about Canal Street here also. But yes, it is an interesting map!
You are correct. From my article Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 to 1913 right here on this site:
The [Brooklyn Loop Lines] would connect to all transit lines running over the Brooklyn Bridge, and the Manhattan and Williamsburgh bridges when transit lines would be constructed over them. The Manhattan portion of the loop would run under Centre Street, but part of the proposed ROW was already in use by the IRT. The proposal was then changed to have a terminal built under a new city office building and it became known as Chambers Street. Construction began on January 27th, 1907. Since the area under construction was at one time a pond that was later filled in, construction of the Municipal Building proved difficult, causing delays in station construction so the foundations could be properly secured. The initial plans for Chambers Street comprised of a four track, five-platform station, later changed to a six-track station with seven platforms. This never came to pass and the original plans were used; however, provision for two additional tracks and pltforms was built into the station at the east end. The westernmost tracks of Chambers Street (the ones closest to the IRT Lexington Ave line), at the south end of the station, were built to curve eastward and climb to connecting ramps onto the Brooklyn Bridge. These ramps were located under the Park Row terminal, and were built, but tracks were never laid on them. The easternmost tracks, at the south end, were to connect to a proposed subway to William Street. On the north end, after a complex series of crossovers, four tracks would continue north to Canal Street and eventually the Williamsburgh Bridge, and the two easternmost tracks would also have a branch to cross the Manhattan Bridge. Chambers Street was built to be a through station that could handle heavy traffic; the outer and center platforms would be used for exit traffic and the remaining inner platforms used for boarding trains. The elevation of the westernmost tracks is higher at the south end of the station than the others, in anticipation of crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.
--Mark
Do you know where I can view some pictures of it in it's heyday ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Those tracks were meant to connect to the tracks coming off the Brooklyn Bridge, in effect replacing Park Row as the terminal for those trains.
Why didn't they just remove the wall and leave an island platform?
Why didn't they just remove the wall and leave an island platform?
The "local" platform is gone. That column that you see in the post above next to the 6 track used to be one of the columns on the local platform at Chambers. The platform is gone, the space it occupied is now part of the 6 northbound track. All that seperates the 6 track from the Broad Street bound J/M track at Chambers is that column (at least at that point anyway), and the wall they put up there. This might be a generalization, but see here (again a photo from Joe Brennan's site):
Of course, this the still existing platform, but it may help to illustrate. Picture the 6 train running where that stairway in the photo is, with the column on it's right, then the wall between the columns, then the J/M track. That's how the set-up is on the abandoned side.
Besides, in those days these were two separate railroad companies, each with their own fare collection. It would not do to allow Brooklyn passengers to co-mingle with those from the Bronx!
: ) Elias
>>>"Besides, in those days these were two separate railroad companies, each with their own fare collection. It would not do to allow Brooklyn passengers to co-mingle with those from the Bronx!"<<<
And dependent on the year, besides the subways, you could also
transfer from Brooklyn to da Bronx and visa verse via the open
air route (Elevated) Park Row (BRT) and City Hall (IRT) and
Brooklyn and Manhattan Surface Lines. TARS & B&QT.
It was a transit hub, that has gone to hell in the shadow of
City Government.
;-) Sparky
air route (Elevated) Park Row (BRT) and City Hall (IRT)
Where were Park Row (BRT) and City Hall (IRT El) in relation to eachother - must have been pretty close, but I can't figure it out from the pictures...
If you can imagine where the BMT Terminal is at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, The IRT Terminal was around the corner on Park Row alongside City Hall.
A few years ago, they had a door open on the southern mezzanine, and I saw the whole depth of the platform, all thw way beck to the original wall. They made some sort of cable room or something out of it, but at least on that end, the whole platform is still there.
When I look at the old abandoned northbound outer platform, I assume that the last time there were revenue passengers using it was before the Nassau St. subway was open and Chambers St. was a bustling terminus as opposed to a station. Am I correct or wrong ?
Correct. The two outer and center platforms were removed from passanger use in 1931. I'm not sure if they were ever used for the old "Nassau/SeaBeach/Franklin" summertime specials to CI after that date.
Also the walled up southbound outer platform raises this question. I was told the reason why they walled up this area was because the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward, and the outer southbound platform was sacrificed. Also, am I correct or wrong ?
Correct again. The northbound platform was destroyed in 1962 to make room for the extension of the Brooklyn Bridge platform. In fact you can see one of the old tiled BMT platform pillars peek out from the wall on the BB extension on the extreme northern end of the uptown platform:
>>Correct again. The northbound platform was destroyed in 1962 to make room for the extension of the Brooklyn Bridge platform. In fact you can see one of the old tiled BMT platform pillars peek out from the wall on the BB extension on the extreme northern end of the uptown platform:<<
Wow, I didn't know that. I gotta check this out next time I'm at Brooklyn Bridge station. So in order to extend BB station, they had to intrude onto the southbound Chambers St. outer platform. That station is full of history as well as mystery.
Bill "Newkirk"
So in order to extend BB station, they had to intrude onto the southbound Chambers St. outer platform. That station is full of history as well as mystery.
That's why it is one of my favorite stations....yes, I must be sick. I still think that would be an amazing station if it was all fixed up. Although maybe it's the extreme squalor that makes it so interesting.
Photo from Harry Beck's site. (Isn't it embarrasing that this is the condition of a station basically at the base of City Hall?)
Unbelievable! I couldn't resist posting these photo's after looking through some more of Harry's photos of Chambers Street. No wonder they chose Chambers Street to film C.H.U.D. A Hollywood set couldn't have made a better location for a horror movie!
You know, maybe C.H.U.D. actually stood for Chambers' Horrible Underground Delapidation. :-)
Good point. You'd think you were on Ellis Island before the main building was rejuvenated.
Neat, he has a shot of one of the ancient punchboxes.
Yes, it is pretty neat!
What amazes me more about the station is that mess in the first photo is in a working station! It would be expected at a station like 18th/PAS, or 91/Bway, but this is a normal in use station. Yes, the platform seen there is abandoned, but it's all in view of the in service platforms. And the paint chips falling all over the station in the photo in the post before that, also are a part of the working station! 91st Street's ceiling actually is in better shape! I don't understand how there is so much work going on at stations all over the system, while Chambers has been allowed to deteriorate to the level it is in.
I used this station on almost a daily basis from 1954-1957, and it was in a deplorable condition even back then.
It still had incandesent lighting in those days.
The ceiling couldn't have been that bad back then. Or could it?
It was the worst looking station on the system at the time, tiles falling, water coming through the ceiling. It probably looked worse because of the dimness of the incandesent lights. The lights were all out on the three unused platforms, and this added to the gloom.
It was the worst looking station on the system at the time, tiles falling, water coming through the ceiling. It probably looked worse because of the dimness of the incandesent lights. The lights were all out on the three unused platforms, and this added to the gloom.
Things there haven't changed much!
>>It was the worst looking station on the system at the time, tiles falling, water coming through the ceiling. It probably looked worse because of the dimness of the incandesent lights. The lights were all out on the three unused platforms, and this added to the gloom.<<
>>Things there haven't changed much!<<
Oh they have changed much, fluorescent lighting makes the station looks 10 times worse than in the old incandescent days.
See the movie "Somebody up there likes me" starring Paul Newman in the biography of boxer Rocky Graziano. Chambers St. is disguised as 14th St. Two scenes were shot there in this 1955 movie, involving BMT Standard #2354. Yes, the station was incandescent lit and very murky. That scene should have been named somebody down there hates me !!
Bill "Newkirk"
My father used it in the early 50's, when he could ride there from Cortelyou Road on the Brighton line over the Manhattan Bridge. He too said the station was in sorry shape. It's as if the station's appearance became irrelevant after the 1931 platform closures.
One of your favorite stations LMAO?! I agree with you about a major renovation. If it is fixed it will look beautiful That pic oly makes Chambers even more hideous than it already is. Don't you guys think so?.
One of your favorite stations LMAO?! I agree with you about a major renovation. If it is fixed it will look beautiful That pic oly makes Chambers even more hideous than it already is. Don't you guys think so?.
Yeah! I was only there only a few weeks ago, and it didn't seem THAT bad (gasp-at least not as bad as the photo makes it out to be). Most of the time photos make things appear better than they actually are. That photo really makes it look like some ancient ruin!
If you were to knock out the wall along the n/b local track at northern end of Brooklyn Bridge, the Chambers St. station would theoretically be in plain sight.
Wouldn't that be an interesting sight? An 8 track, 8 platform megaplex!
It would make for an interesting station! In addition, I guess they would have been forced to clean up the Chambers station when they redid Brooklyn Bridge. Interesting, most of the time when they redo one station in a complex, they usually redo all the stations in a complex. That certainly wasn't the case for Chambers. Brooklyn Bridge was redone two times (once when they abandoned Worth St, and again about 10 years ago) and Chambers not even once!
I can't figure out why Chambers St. is still in such awful shape. Fulton, Broad & Canal Sts have all been rehabbed.
>>I can't figure out why Chambers St. is still in such awful shape. Fulton, Broad & Canal Sts have all been rehabbed.<<
Rehabbing Chambers St. would be a multi million dollar nightmare. And the station is way to large for today's ridership. The best thing to do to rehab Chambers St. is to do what is being done to Canal St. Make Chambers a single island platform like Canal and abandon the rest. Rescue the marble and Brooklyn Bridge tablets from the northbound outer platform and incorporate them into the 1960 false wall. Build a false wall for the northbound side's unused platform replicating the original mosaics. And for the high ceilings, install grating to lower the ceiling.
Other than that, what else can be done to rehab Chambers St ? This station essentially died back in 1931 when it was downgraded from a major terminal to an over built station. Any suggestions, I'm out of ideas on this one.
Bill "Newkirk"
Only way Chambers gets restored to its former glory is if the Nassau loop is included some day in any Second Ave. subway project. Once the station became a boarding/disembarking stop for people living on the mid- and Upper East Side, it's sorry condition would suddenly become a far greater concern at MTA headquarters, especially if it was the showplace downtown stop of an all-new line north of Delancey Street.
How would a Second Avenue Line reach Chambers St? Through the former Manny B leads?
They would probably have to build brand-new flying junctions, with one track swinging under the Delancey Street tracks; the 2nd Avenue Line would connect with the two OUTER Delancey tracks, while the M and J trains would use the two inner tracks. I woould imagine that unless they wanted to build a "jughandle"-type curve, 2nd Avenue trains would most likely skip The Bowery station. (That is no great loss, since it is an underutilized station, anyway.) 2nd Avenue trains would then stop at the outer tracks of Canal Street and Chambers Street, continuing on to Fulton Street, Broad Street, and through the Montague Tunnel to Brooklyn. M and J Trains would most likely terminate at Chambers Street.
I agree with that. I'm sure if the 2nd Ave subway would come through the Nassau line, it would probably end the M and J going past Chambers (although the J might still go to Broad). I think it would be better for the J and M to use the middle tracks though, and the 2nd Ave subway use the outer tracks, because then the J and M could termminate on the center tracks at Chambers, and possibly even use the Center platform. Either one though would be better than the let's say the J and M using the western tracks at Canal, and the 2nd Ave line using the western ones. With that you would not have an across the platform transfer at Canal and Chambers for southern Brooklyn trains. Although you would still have to switch platforms if you were going uptown on the 2nd Ave and were coming from the WillyB.
After the reconfig of Nassau line, my guess would be that 2nd Av line would use 2 easternmost tracks.
Arti
Doing that would mean less disruption of the J/M/Z north of Canal, but it would also dead end both that line and Second Ave. at Chambers without a major reconfiguration of the connections south of Chambers. That would also require construction within the station itself, since the west side elevation at the south end is higher than the east side -- you'd either have to build a crossover from the "express" track on the east side of Chambers to the downtown Nassau St. line to continue the Second Ave. route, or build one from the track coming off Nassau from Fulton to the west side "experess track" to allow through service for the J/M/Z.
Don't forget that the reconfiguration of Nassau line is already in progress. What's lest after that is abandoned 2 east side tracks.
Arti
The line is being reconfigured, but the tracks will still be there and can be modified again if a major project like Second Avenue was involved. Going back to the old alignment, or moving the J/M/Z trains to the center tracks either between Bowery and Canal or Canal and Chambers to allow through Second Ave. service to Broad St. and on to Brooklyn would be a minimal part of the cost of the entire line.
You could build the merger with minimal service disruptions if you reconfigure the Centre St. interlocking so that Queens bound J/M trains use the outside track (the old Dekalb Ave. bound bridge track) all the way to Canal/Centre, instead of the way service runs now, switching over the two Manhattan bridge stub tracks immediatley upon leaving Chambers St. Construction could be done in between both J/M tracks as was done north of Queens Plaza for the 63rd. St. connector. And no construction south of Chambers to reconfigure the differing grades would be necessary.
An even easier way exists. As the 2nd Ave line contines south down Chrystie St. from it's station at Grand (which would be an expanded station), the tracks could dive underneath the current Q/W tracks running along Canal St, turn 90 degrees east, run underneath the current Manny B stubtrack tunnel from Chambers St, the turn 90 degrees south, raise the grade and have the 2 tracks emerge between the 2 J/M/Z tracks coming from Canal/Centre. These tracks would then feed the 2 center tracks at Chambers St, with scissor crossovers just north of the station so 2nd Ave trains could move to the outer tracks and continue south along Nassau.
I don't see the need to have the tracks from 2nd Avenue in the center - if they're on the East side of the station, they're on the trackways designed to go to Fulton, Broad and the Montague tunnel anyway.
The line from Canal, Bowery etc could then use the current downtown half of the station as a terminal or maybe run up the half-constructed leads onto the Brooklyn Bridge and back along the Myrtle Avenue El (if only it existed still) - that would be some cool route Metropolitan Avenue to Metropolitan Avenue.
Putting steel subway cars on the Brooklyn Bridge won't fly, because of their weight -- right now the city is even considering limits on SUVs crossing the bridge because of their added stress on the structure.
As for connecting any Second Ave. subway line to Nassau St. between Chambers and Canal, any arrangement would probably want to have tracks emerge between the "express" and "local" tracks on both sides, which would give trains the option of terminating/starting on the center tracks at Chambers or south to Broad soouth of the Canal St. J/M/Z station, there would be a scissors crossover, which would permit trains coming off the Willie B the same option of terminating at Chambers or continuing on to Broad.
(Of course, if the MTA ever does find the money for a four-track Second Ave. line, then the cross-platform transfer to the B/D at Canal could be handled by either the express or local tracks, while the other could split off at Delancey and connect up with the Nassau St. line between the Bowery and Canal stations. That would allow for direct access to Manhattan Bridge trains from Second Ave. even if one side of the bridge is closed).
No, only the 2 "local" tracks go south of Chambers St:
By bringing up the 2nd Ave tracks in the center of the 2 local tracks north of Chambers, you retain the flexibility of using Chambers St as a terminal if the train runs straight, or it could switch over to the local track north of the station for continued service down Nassau St. It would eliminate any need for work south of the station, retain Chambers St's ability to be used as a terminal, and the work could be done with no interruption of J/M service if you connect the old Dekalb Ave-bound Manhattan bridge track to the Queensbound track at Canal/Centre.
You know, now that I've read some posts about Chambers St. and the Second Ave. subway, I theorize why Chambers St. was left to slowly deteriorate over the years.
The answer is Chambers St. being the terminus of the 2nd Ave. subway. Since the 2nd Ave. subway has been planned and put off for many decades, the BMT and later the City probably felt that when the 2nd Ave subway was to be built, then Chambers would have to be rehabbed.
We all know that World War II, the need for new rolling stock, the City's fiscal crises and other things put the 2nd Ave. line on the shelf. So can it be safe to say that the dilapidated condition of Chambers St. is visual proof of the delayed construction of a subway line on 2nd Ave. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Could it also be that rehabbing Chambers will be inordinately expensive because you can't just remove the roof and start all over as you can elsewhere? They have to fix the ceiling while the Municipal Building remains in place above.
Grand Central was rehabbed with a bigger structure over it. Rehabbing Chambers St. wouldn't involve compromising load bearing beams.
That still leaves the problem of how to connect the current tail track to the northbound through track leaving Fulton Street.
Should we try and fix the leaks or should we just put pans on top of the grate to catch the drips? Those are toilet lines leaking up there!
wayne
Eeewwwwww!!
Just what we all need - having raw sewage dripping onto that Ellis Island-like ruin.
My plan for Chambers St:
1. Lower the ceilings
2. Wall off the remaining side and the middle platforms up to the new ceiling level. This would create 2 different and seperate 2 track/1 island platforms.
3. Re-tile the new walls in the same brown/green grecian mosaics used at Broad, Fulton & Canal to meld the whole line together.
I say they should feed the trains from Fulton onto the Queens-bound "express" track. They would need to put a switch in. They then should put a wall up along the west side of the current Queens-bound platform, and then abandon it. The current abandoned center platform would become the Queens bound platform. This would make Chambers into a two island platform station with three tracks.
The center track (current Broad St bound "express" track) could be used on weekends when the J terminates at Chambers, or even short runs of the M. This idea would get all of the eyesore abandoned platforms out of view. They could remove all the pink marble and Brooklyn Bridge bas-reliefs from the abandoned side platform and use them on the new wall along the west side of the current Queens platform. They could re-create them for the other wall covering where the west local platform used to be.
Doing that reduces the capacity that Chambers St. could be used as a terminal. I'd like to retail all 4 tracks if possible. That idea would also entail a major service interruption as the track from Fulton and the northbound "express" tracks are at different grades entering the station.
And its a shame, I guess that station is not important. If a 2 Av subway is ever built, it should terminate at Chambers if thats what it takes to improve the station. Maybe a Broadway line-Nassau line connection should make a comeback.
Maybe the uncertain future of the 2nd Ave line is to blame for the lack of work at Chambers. I know it'll never be built, but has any official decision between the Water St. option and the Nassau St. connection been made yet?
According to Joe Brennan, the southbound local platform was mostly destroyed when the Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward. My guess is that while there is something behind the wall, its just a shell of the local platform that was there.
A few years ago, they had a door open on the southern mezzanine, and I saw the whole depth of the platform, all thw way beck to the original wall. They made some sort of cable room or something out of it, but at least on that end, the whole platform is still there. On the northern end, the stair connecting to Lexington can be seen going through the new wall, and the passageway seems to be further in than wthe depth of the platform would go, and this runs below the level of the IRT local tracks, so It looks like the whole platform could be there and they just use it for electrical purposes.
Interesting, so there is still some small remnant of the west local platform. I wonder if any of the Brooklyn Bridge picture tables still exist on it.
I wonder if any of the Brooklyn Bridge picture tables still exist on it.
TABLETS, not tables......
Today's Times The Tunnel Vision Column
And a tip of the Selkirk Motorman's cap and a solid brake lapping to the "Master of self-promotion!" CONGRATS, GUY! :)
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/05/nyregion/05TUNN.html
Just remember who to leave it to in your will. Heh.
Congrats to heypaul!
Peace,
ANDEE
[Just remember who to leave it to in your will. Heh.]
Hey, bro, ya gotta to wait ya turn in line...LOL! :)
A BIG Congrats to Paul (once again).
Congrats, Paul!
That cab is sooo cool!
I think Randy Kennedy has your number !
"In a City filled with people who live to work ... he has carefully worked just enough to live exactly the kind of life he wants to have."
Congrags to you my friend !
I met heypaul in October and we spent the afternoon together along with Brighton Express Bob. Yes, Thurston, you assessment on heypaul is correct. He knows what's important in life and what is pure bs. Bob and I liked him right off. He doesn't deal in bullshit and like my other Subtalk buddy, Train Dude, you know where they're coming from from the get-go.
And I thought I'd never understand the people on this board.
Does this rock or what?
Nah. Paul's yet to make it in the 'National Enquirer'. WHEN he does that then he's REALLY made it big...:)
I hear "News of the World" might have a scoop on him now :)
--Mark
"Brooklyn man's shocking story: I was abducted by D Types" ...
And unless you knew what a D-type is, you'd think the guy was referring to aliens from outer space.:)
That's why I suspect we could pitch the story successfully if CERTAIN PEOPLE would keep their yap shut. Heh.
if CERTAIN PEOPLE would keep their yap shut.
Hey, this is SubTalk, not SubShutup, you know!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was TEASING Steve there ... after all, our friends at News Corporation wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a D type and the grand mothership unless someone squealed. :)
Abducted by the Triplexes? You should be so lucky. What a train. I still get chills remembering riding one again in May after so many years. You should have seen Mark Feinmann and I at the railfan window. It was a blast for the ages.
I'll call the Enquirer's tips line and bang ya in then. :)
Best truckload of lunatics I've ever hung out with. :)
I resemble that remark!
Hey, I love skee-ball and the R9, oh boy!!
Apologies if everyone knows about this site. I couldn't find it linked to on nycsubway.org
http://www.dewi.ca/
In particular, there are some stunning photos at:
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/tubes.html
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/trains.html
Plenty else to see on these web pages.
did i see a railfan window on those cars ??.......... wow !
i bet they sounded great !
No, you don't see a railfan window. You see a window looking into your most favourite thing - a TRANSVERSE CAB!
-Robert King
Was surprised to find two local museums featured on the cover of November's Railpace magazine:
- Waterbury/Naugatuck diesel museum. Article inside has several very nice shots of their RS-3 (pulling freight) & FL9s (passenger train).
- Laurel Line Tunnel opening at the Electric City Trolley Museum at Scranton, PA. Article includes many shots of their PTS/Red Arrow Center Door trolley. The article also talks about some potential freight customers along this 19 mile line.
P.S. The read cover shot is a nice one of the trolley inside the tunnel.
*Waterbury/Naugatuck diesel museum*
Isn't that the Danbury RR museum? Or is this something different?
The Railway Museum at Naugatuck is an operating excursion line.
The Railway Museum at Danbury is basically a static museum, which
on occasion charters MN equipment for excursions.
Still haven't seen the November issue of "Railpace". Why Greenpoint,
Brooklyn is considered a foreign country to the USPS. Still awaiting
the October Issue of the BERA Tripper.
;-) Sparky
Does the museum line use the old Naugie ROW for it's run?
Dave,
I'm not that familiar with their operation, so maybe someone else
will chime in.
;-) Sparky
The Naugatuck Railroad is operated by the Railroad Museum of New England, and is not affiliated with the Danbury Railroad Museum. The RMNE website is at (surprisingly enough) www.rmne.org
Frank Hicks
Thanks Frank,
;-) Sparky
Got it yesterday (Tue mail) Sparky.
Seems Paul is back in the saddle again...this time Randy Kennedy apparently got a tour of his establishment. Poor guy...he'll never be the same again! ;)
Jeez, what next? Heypaul on Larry King Live?!
From the article (the emphasis below is mine):
After delving over the years into other research areas — old radios, Greyhound buses, cash registers and Otis elevators — Mr. Kronenberg said last week he had found two new ones that might help supplant his subway obsession.
One is Skee-Ball, the old-fashioned arcade game, a version of which he is considering building intact in his living room. The other, he says, smiling, is a very nice woman from Texas, whom he met recently and who seems to appreciate the very things he appreciates.
You devil, you! Attaboy!! heypaul, heypaul, heypaul .....
But wait, the article further states ....
He is still unsure, however, whether a motorman's cab, a Skee-Ball alley and a new woman friend are completely compatible in the life of just one Brooklyn man: "Something might have to go."
Oh NO - not the cab ... wait, here's a great, er, compromise .... speak to SelkirkTMO about blessing the cab ....
In all seriousness, congrats to heypaul on getting an article all about himself in today's Times.
--Mark
Bingbong and I *already* blessed Heypaul's cab. And Heypaul has the PROFF on VIDEO! :)
Whatever came of the premise to elect heypaul FOR MAYOR?
Such blessed irony he's in the NYT on election day...
I didn't have the time to ride the Green Line light rail during my brief trip to Los Angeles last week, but it does puzzle me a bit. As best I can tell, based on the map and my admittedly incomplete knowledge of the area, the line runs basically from nowhere to nowhere. It doesn't seem particularly useful to commuters and requires a double transfer for those using Metro Link rail. It comes fairly close to the airport but doesn't actually get there, requiring a Howard Beach-esque bus transfer. Is there some point to the line that I'm missing?
You're correct in that the line is functionally unfinished. A branch should have gone straight into LAX (but there are persistent anti-airport political problems with that) and the eastern end doesn't go far enough.
However, the stations along the Century Freeway are useful and would be more useful if the line were finished.
Similarly, the Century Freeway itself is underutilized in part because a key stretch at the end was blocked by NIMBYs.
The whole history of that freeway is nightmarish. The whole project probably took 20 years to build. Environmental impact lawsuits, NIMBY lawsuits, pro-mass transit lawsuits, civil rights lawsuits, corruption, and a whole assortment of issues delayed the "completion" of that freeway.
The inclusion of the Green Line is more the result of compromise than anything else. CALTRANS originally wanted a 10-to-12 lane traditional freeway. To appease the various parties, it was built as a six-lane (with added car-pool lane) highway with a light rail line running down the median.
There are other projects in L.A. with similar histories. The 710 Freeway, for instance, stops abruptly at South Pasadena, then picks up at the intersection of the 210 and 134 at the eastern end of Pasadena. The homeowners in South Pasadena have fought off construction for years, because the freeway would destroy a historic district of Craftsman Victorian homes.
Then there's the aborted Beverly Hills Freeway: The Glendale Freeway ends suddenly east of Dodger Stadium in downtown. It was supposed to have turned east, intersected with the Hollywood Freeway, (the right-of-way for the cloverleaf is clearly visible,) and run parallel to Santa Monica Blvd to the 405 (San Diego) Freeway. Powerful NIMBY interests in Beverly Hills killed that freeway.
One leg of the Red Line Subway in L.A. was stopped far east of its terminus, after a powerful and influential Congressman succeeded in blocking federal funds earmarked fr the project. The excuse used was that pockets of methane gas in the "Miracle Mile" district might cause an explosion similar to one that occured at a department store there in the late 70's. The safety concerns were legitimate, but I suspect NIMBYism had a hand in it, too. Beverly Hills never cared for the subway, and behind-the-scenes manipulation "erased" a proposed station at Crenshaw Blvd. (far east of Beverly Hills) because that station might bring in the (ahem) "element". (L.A., sadly, remains an amazingly segregated city.)
Last but not least: Let's not forget the truncated, little-used Marina Freeway. It runs between a shopping mall in Culver City and Marina Del Rey. It was once called the Richard M. Nixon Freeway. Like his term of office, it was never finished.
One leg of the Red Line Subway in L.A. was stopped far east of its terminus, after a powerful and influential Congressman succeeded in blocking federal funds earmarked fr the project. The excuse used was that pockets of methane gas in the "Miracle Mile" district might cause an explosion similar to one that occured at a department store there in the late 70's. The safety concerns were legitimate, but I suspect NIMBYism had a hand in it, too. Beverly Hills never cared for the subway, and behind-the-scenes manipulation "erased" a proposed station at Crenshaw Blvd. (far east of Beverly Hills) because that station might bring in the (ahem) "element". (L.A., sadly, remains an amazingly segregated city.)
I noticed that the Wilshire Boulevard leg of the Red Line went just a short distance west of the Vermont Ave. split. It seemed odd that the leg would go only as far as Western and then abruptly stop. Now it makes sense. Can't have those people getting easy access to our 'hood, can we?
What I ended up doing in Los Angeles was taking Metro Link from Claremont, near where I was staying, then exploring downtown on foot for a while. I of course wanted to check out the Red Line too. Rather than getting it from downtown, I decided to walk to MacArthur Park and get it there, mainly because I was thinking of that silly song. The MacArthur Park station was okay, but the park itself was really nasty - in a rundown area and absolutely chock full of skells. I ended up taking the Red Line to Hollywood and Vine (another area that's seen better days), and returned to Union Station.
i do remembr the latinio & black communities complaining about how the subway was STEERED AWAY FROM THEM
And how the working average stiffs still have to depend on the rapid bus metro bus santa monica bus lines montebello
bus lins etc..
But the "" los angles red line subway to nowhere "" did not FINISH THE JOB and go to the areas were it was most
needed ! I have some old talk radio tapes i think i will give away that deal with the DIRT ON THE RED LINE ..
the LONG BEACK BLUE LINE however is the most succssful of all of the rail lines here !!
the PASADNA GOLD LINE however will only run to UNION STATION ( not downtown ) & will not ""hook up""
to the BLUE LINE ...but talk about a nice right of way !! very scenic & beautiful !! .....wow !!
I do however feel the RED LINE CARS ......" much better than a r-142"".....sorry folks !!
the hollywood vine area dos take good tourist photography oppertunities !!
the RED LINE stations are a bit too fancy and more could have been done to extend the line much longer !!
( also they should have built the same rail cars used on the BLUE , GREEN , & GOLD lines so they could all
work together ! Also the RED LINE system should have not been all underground !!
"the PASADNA GOLD LINE however will only run to UNION STATION ( not downtown ) & will not ""hook up""
to the BLUE LINE ...but talk about a nice right of way !! very scenic & beautiful !! .....wow !! "
Be grateful for getting even that. The line can be extended later, if there is $$$ and political will for it.
i do remember the latinio & black communities complaining about how the subway was STEERED AWAY FROM THEM
And how the working average stiffs still have to depend on the rapid bus metro bus santa monica bus lines montebello
bus lins etc..
But the "" los angles red line subway to nowhere "" did not FINISH THE JOB and go to the areas were it was most
needed ! I have some old talk radio tapes i think i will give away that deal with the DIRT ON THE RED LINE ..
the LONG BEACK BLUE LINE however is the most succssful of all of the rail lines here !!
the PASADNA GOLD LINE however will only run to UNION STATION ( not downtown ) & will not ""hook up""
to the BLUE LINE ...but talk about a nice right of way !! very scenic & beautiful !! .....wow !!
I do however feel the RED LINE CARS ......" much better than a r-142"".....sorry folks !!
the hollywood vine area dos take good tourist photography oppertunities !!
the RED LINE stations are a bit too fancy and more could have been done to extend the line much longer !!
( also they should have built the same rail cars used on the BLUE , GREEN , & GOLD lines so they could all
work together ! Also the RED LINE system should have not been all underground !!
>>> It seemed odd that the leg would go only as far as Western and then abruptly stop. Now it makes sense. Can't have those people getting easy access to our 'hood, can we? <<<
You have it wrong. Rapid transit was the vision of Tom Bradley and a few other visionaries. There was always a group who said it would be a waste of money because no one (i.e. they) would never ride a subway, and the money could be much better spent on freeways. As the red line progressed, there were cost overruns and serious accidents. Bradley, toward the end of his last term was getting old and was losing his power base. The Wilshire line was cut off because of the claims of transit opponents that tunneling near the La Brea tar pits with all the dinosaur farts (methane) in the area would be dangerous and much more expensive than expected.
The opponents got the upper hand and got the digging stopped by convincing the voters to vote against any more expenditures for subways. It wasn't traditional NIMBYs that stopped the Wilshire line as much as those living in the suburbs not wanting to spend money on the central city.
>>> The MacArthur Park station was okay, but the park itself was really nasty - in a rundown area and absolutely chock full of skells <<<
That is the heart of the infamous Rampart Division. Twenty-five years ago I used to play chess in Mac Arthur Park regularly, but the place went downhill after the freedom loving Marielitos arrived from Cuba and made it their headquarters. Now the south side of the park is mainly Latino immigrants, while the north and west sides have a lot of retirees. Many of the hotels on the east side of the park are halfway houses for convicts on parole. The south side of the park is now filled with drug dealers, stolen goods dealers, phoney document dealers and other assorted lowlifes.
>>> I ended up taking the Red Line to Hollywood and Vine <<<
It's a shame you did not ride further to Universal City. You missed the 70 mph portion of the ride.
Tom
It seemed odd that the leg would go only as far as Western and then abruptly stop. Now it makes sense. Can't have those people getting easy access to our 'hood, can we?
You have it wrong. Rapid transit was the vision of Tom Bradley and a few other visionaries. There was always a group who said it would be a waste of money because no one (i.e. they) would never ride a subway, and the money could be much better spent on freeways. As the red line progressed, there were cost overruns and serious accidents. Bradley, toward the end of his last term was getting old and was losing his power base. The Wilshire line was cut off because of the claims of transit opponents that tunneling near the La Brea tar pits with all the dinosaur farts (methane) in the area would be dangerous and much more expensive than expected.
What doomed the Wilshire line might not have been too many NIMBY's, but not enough YIMBY's. In other words, it sounds as if the support for the line was too lukewarm to overcome opposition. Which isn't to say that the cost overruns and construction problems weren't major issues. They certainly were, but if there had been a big consensus on extending the Red Line to the Westside it probably would have been extended. In addition, I'm not saying that the extension necessarily should have been built. It simply might not have been worth the cost.
The MacArthur Park station was okay, but the park itself was really nasty - in a rundown area and absolutely chock full of skells.
That is the heart of the infamous Rampart Division. Twenty-five years ago I used to play chess in Mac Arthur Park regularly, but the place went downhill after the freedom loving Marielitos arrived from Cuba and made it their headquarters. Now the south side of the park is mainly Latino immigrants, while the north and west sides have a lot of retirees. Many of the hotels on the east side of the park are halfway houses for convicts on parole. The south side of the park is now filled with drug dealers, stolen goods dealers, phoney document dealers and other assorted lowlifes.
Ah, the Rampart Division - brings back memories of Adam 12!
I walked into the north side of the park having come west on Wilshire. Looking around, I thought the south side would be more interesting with its lake. There is a pedestrian tunnel under Wilshire that looked to be the best way of getting there. As I started to enter the tunnel, however, I was immediately assaulted by the stench of Numero Uno, and to make matters worse saw two skells making their contribution to that stench. They weren't even facing the tunnel walls, just standing there right in the middle of the tunnel. Unbelieveable. I decided that my dignity was more important than my safety and chose to take my chances with the traffic on Wilshire. And you are right about the low-lives in the south side of the park. How sad, it could be a very nice park.
By the way, three skells approached me in the park separately and, presumably, begged for money in Spanish (I caught the word "dinero" each time.) Now, I do not look Hispanic any more than the typical Caucasian does, I still can't figure out why they thought I would be Spanish-speaking.
On a happier note, at least the subway station was well-maintained and largely skell-free.
>>> They certainly were, but if there had been a big consensus on extending the Red Line to the Westside it probably would have been extended <<<
You still do not understand. There was never any great popular desire for a subway. Only a few who believed a subway was necessary for L.A. to be a "great" city rather than just a large one. They had the political clout to get it started and it was sustained by those making money from the construction. The original plan did call for it to run farther along Wilshire, but it was cut back by the penny pinchers in the end.
>>> brings back memories of Adam 12! <<<
Many old cop shows on TV such as "Police Story", "Blue Knight" and of course "Adam 12" were shot in that area, particularly in the back alleys.
>>> I walked into the north side of the park having come west on Wilshire <<<
From the route you took, I guess you missed Langer's Deli on the corner of 7th and Alvarado (a left turn from the station). It will probably close when Mr. Langer dies. It is a great deli in the old New York style, but the prices are too high for the neighborhood (the Fresser's Special sandwich is $12.00+, others $8.00+) and not many are willing to go there from out side the neighborhood. At one time it stayed open to 3:00 A.M. seven days a week, and was a great place for a late snack. Now it relies on lunch business only, including downtown workers taking the Red Line to get there, and closes at 4:00 P.M. on weekdays. I know it is closed Sunday, and I believe it is closed on Saturday also.
>>> By the way, three skells approached me in the park separately and, presumably, begged for money in Spanish <<<
It is very possible that they were not begging, but were independent businessmen, and if you had tendered $10-$20, they would have handed you, or signaled someone to bring you, a little baggie of rocks or crank.
Tom
There are other projects in L.A. with similar histories. The 710 Freeway, for instance, stops abruptly at South Pasadena, then picks up at the intersection of the 210 and 134 at the eastern end of Pasadena. The homeowners in South Pasadena have fought off construction for years, because the freeway would destroy a historic district of Craftsman Victorian homes. ?
comment please !!
they can be moved easy !! and you should hear the south pasadena
NYMBYS NUTZ complain about the gold line blowing horns !!
total insanity !
they can be moved easy !!
Obviously you've never been involved in moving a house, or any other building. It is an EXTREMELY expensive proposition, even for a short distance. And in the case of a neighborhood such as the one referenced in South Pasadena, the neighborhood itself is part of what makes the houses worth saving. In another context those houses wouldn't be nearly as significant.
Freeways be damned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
oh come on man !!
( sorry for being slightly off topic )........BUT !!
in the pasadena star news ...( tribune etc..) it was those NYMBYS..
of south pasadena who use everyones elses' highways/freeways etc..
AND THEY SURE DONT MIND USING SOMEONE ELSES FREEWAY / HIGHWAY
THAT RUN THRU ...glendale azuza pasadena arcadia ....etc...
BUT .......now my main man these same NYMBYS now bitch and moan bout'
da' GOLD LINE using horns at railroad crossings ....those s.o.a.b.s!
as for moving houses that was done to all the other areas that the
freeways run thru today ( WHAT IS SO DAMMED SPECIAL ABLOUT S-PAS )
( south pasadena ) ....omg they are such dammmed NYMBYS there !!
I have watched the moving of houses and apartments etc..
remember when this was first done here in southern california ..
Old L.A. ( now a museum of the first homes of los angeles )..is
made up of a lot of em along the pasadena freeway near the river !!
It is a matter of personal opinion as to how much a classic house is
worth ! if south pasadena was just another poor low income area
( with only latinios and blacks and some trailer types etc.. )..
The LONG BEACH 710 FREEWAY would have been completed a long time ago!
south pasadena to me is not even worth it at all !!..the dammed sobs!
there should be no offramps to south pasadena when we do finally build
the 710 and FINISH THE JOB !! ...& asap ...!!
if you think i am bluffing here watch them BITCH AND MOAN about the
GOLD LINE blowing horns at railroad crossings the dammed bastards !
( my opinion about them ) ...
They're not used to trains like we are. The LIRR hasn't hurt Great Neck any (just the opposite; the Port Washington branch helps make Great Neck a preferred community).
yes sir i watched the LIRR running over every crossing blowing horns
in all kinds of neighborhoods ...etc...........
multiple blasts of the horns ! at every crossing ..
no nymbys just passengers getting on and off trains !!
to hell with south pasadena..........aka the gold line ...
lol !!
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the freeway took not 20, but nearly 30 years to build. Some demolition had started along its right-of-way when I moved out here the first time in 1968!
At that time, the aerospace industry maintained a VERY heavy presence at the western end of the line, and for this reason if nothing else, the lien DID have someplace to wind up. North American Rockwell owned much of the property around the Imperial/Aviation station (they were turning out Sabreliner business jets faster than you could imagine). Hughes Aircraft owned most of the property around the next three stations (GM bought Hughes, most of their facilities either relocated or simply closed)-- and TRW was around the last two stations. All these companies are merged with someone else, and the production they did moved elsewhere.
The eastern end of the line goes nowhere due to the NIMBY factor. originally it was to connect with the then-planned Orange County system (which still hasn't turned shovelful number one of dirt thanks to the NIMBY's down here....) There is talk now of extended the Green Line to the Norwalk Metrolink station about three miles from its present terminus, but again, the NIMBY factor is stalling it big time.
On a side note -- those into HO scale trains might find it insteresting, that one of the major manufacturers of HO scale model railroad equipment....Athearn....was one of the first properties to be relocated due to the Century Freeway. Their old plant at 11929 South Western Avenue was located right smack in the middle of the freeway!!
in reference to the green line ?
which runs on the center of the 105 freeway crossesthe blue line
as for orange county i hear there is a link to metrolink....
i would have hooked it up with a transfer station to the blue / green
line instead !
my old man used to work for Hughes Aircraft / TRW back in the 1960s-70s
the plants almost look abandoned today a shadow of what they once
were !!
looking at those places from the green line platforms is something
else !
I worked at Hughes in the mid-1980's - did programming for their business operations unit (procurement stuff). We built the atmospheric probe for Galileo, the radar for the Venus Magellan spacecraft, and a series of GOES weather satellites.
you worked at Hughes in the mid-1980's - ?
wasnt that near TRW ??
>>> The eastern end of the line goes nowhere due to the NIMBY factor. <<<
It wasn't the NIMBY factor that stopped the Green Line as much as the end of the Century Freeway. The Green Line was built on the cheap by routing it along the center of the freeway. The freeway builders did the heavy lifting in obtaining the ROW. In the planning stage it was expected to take workers from the blue collar communities to the aerospace industries south of LAX, removing commuters from the new freeway. Before the line opened, but after too much had been spent to back out, the aerospace industry moved to Texas, and the potential riders disappeared.
At this point, the idea was to cut the losses and build no more, so the western end which had turned south toward Redondo Beach ends unceremoniously at an elevated station with bumper blocks at the end of the track, and a drop to the street beyond them. The biggest attraction at that end is a miniature golf course and video arcade. Although there is a vestal stub turning toward LAX, taking the line to the airport, which is a number of terminals on a horseshoe design would require a subterranean loop to serve the terminals (there are already two levels of auto traffic), and the Green Line does not go to areas (blue collar communities) that most airport travelers want to go to. Buses or vans to downtown, the Valley, and Long Beach and Orange County all would be much faster than taking the Green Line and transferring to the Blue Line. Airport workers do take the Green Line and the free shuttle bus to LAX.
The eastern end is at the end of the freeway about three miles from the Norwalk Metrolink station. The track ends in an open cut below grade level suggesting any extension to the east would be subterranean. But that Metrolink station is really a stop on the route between downtown Los Angeles and Santa Ana, or Riverside. The station is lightly used, and it is hard to imagine that extending the Green Line to that station would increase traffic for either line.
In short, although NIMBYs may have stopped the freeway from going further, it was unwillingness to spend the money necessary and very little bang for the buck that stopped the Green line on both ends.
Tom
catch the G bus doenstairs to LAX ....I took shots of the
" breakaway " that was supposed to go to the LAX airport ...
now they run the siemens P 2000s instead of the shayrop85s
if the green went inside the LAX LIKE IT SHOULD HAVE !!
it would have been a working solution to the transit problems here!
why they 1/2 did this transit thing here is a bummer !!
hard to figure !
You're correct in that the line is functionally unfinished. A branch should have gone straight into LAX (but there are persistent anti-airport political problems with that) and the eastern end doesn't go far enough.
However, the stations along the Century Freeway are useful and would be more useful if the line were finished.
Similarly, the Century Freeway itself is underutilized in part because a key stretch at the end was blocked by NIMBYs. Another reason is that (until recently), the aerospace industry at the airport (Hughes, TRW, Aerospace Corp, Rockwell(now Boeing) etc and its suppliers in Norwalk were sucking eggs instead of orders...
i think i can find out more about the ornage county rail system on
the OCTA page ...
found it the orange county light rail construction page
http://centerline.octa.net/
next one
http://centerline.octa.net/press/maps.asp
hmmm... they used to have a digital station 2 station photo
re-creations ...glad i downloaded when it was running !!
i do have it on a photo CD ...
...oh well .....................lol
I have to make a trip today from downtown Manhattan to the Bronx. I plan to use the 5 train to the Morris Park station.
I have a couple of questions about the trip:
1) Do all 5 trains go to Dyre Avenue during the midday hours?
2) How long should the trip be from Fulton Street station to Morris Park?
Thanks.
Easily answered from the schedules on the MTA web site.
Looks like all mid-day trains (all 6 per hour) go to Dyre.
55 min Bowling Green to Dyre Ave. (adjust accordingly)
5 trains go to Dyre Ave at all times.
Except when some go to 238th St.
You have a point.
But Mitch45 was talking about
midday.
Servive to 238 St is
rush hours only.
with one exception, the 8:59 Utica (proving that the <5> has ran outside of rush hours)
0859 is still within TA limits for 'rush hour.'
Up until sometime this year there WAS one 5 train that did go to 238 Street at around 10:13 am from Utica Avenue at 8:59. The redbirds being officially eliminated from the #2 line probably destroyed that special run. The ONLY 238 Street #5 scheduled to stop at Bronx local stops, like Simpson Street, etc.
Up until sometime this year there WAS one 5 train that did go to 238 Street at around 10:13 am from Utica Avenue at 8:59. The redbirds being officially eliminated from the #2 line probably destroyed that special run. The ONLY 238 Street #5 scheduled to stop at Bronx local stops, like Simpson Street, etc.
Somehow it is still on the schedule(for some reason), if you want to check
The Mutilingual edition of the the September 2002 The Map is now making its way into circulation and instead of having a red tint on the cover like the previous versions, it has a light green tint.
So now we have the regular version - Blue, Multilingual version - Green.
And here I thought it was already November.
As promised, here it is. If you were there and don't see your name listed, please respond, especially if you had handle time on 1689. I will submit this to Dave Pirmann once everything is straight. Also, please advise if you prefer to be referred to as something other than what appears here. Happy reading!
The first Subtalk Day at the Shoreline Trolley Museum was held on Sunday, October 13, 2002. A fairly large group of regular Subtalk posters attended on what was for the most part a gray, dreary, drizzly day. R-9 1689, specially chartered for the day, was the main attraction. TARS 629 and Montreal’s 2001 carried regular paying guests.
The day began for most Subtalkers with breakfast at the Twin Pines diner not far from the museum. From there it was off to the Sprague Building, where we parked and went inside. The staff members and operators changed into their uniforms while the rest of us either took in the subway interlocking signal in the lobby or filled out membership paperwork. Once all was ready, we walked along the track to the barn area, where the first order of business was to rouse 1689 from its peaceful slumber. The car looked terrific! Kevin McAleavey aka Selkirk TMO, who once operated the R-1/9s as a motorman on the IND D line, raised its trolley pole and went through his favorite motorman’s ritual of flipping switches and circuit breakers and as he did, 1689 came to life. He also took the time to answer questions about the car in general. The last step was to set the marker lights on the end facing the barn door to green-green, the proper combination for a D train running express in the Bronx. While waiting for the car to charge up, R-17 6688 was brought out of its barn with Kevin’s wife, Nancy aka Bingbong, at the controls under the watchful eye of Lou (from Brooklyn) Levinson, our expert instructor for the day. Unlike 1689, 6688 was not chartered; it was brought out so that we Subtalkers could have a closer look at it. Once 6688 was parked, Lou and Nancy joined us aboard 1689, which by then was all charged up and ready to roll. Lou slowly nudged the 42-ton car out of the barn and after a series of reverse moves, stopped it by the high-level loading platform near the barn area known as Avenue L, so named after a former station on the Canarsie line which no longer exists. We waited for our turn to proceed onto the mainline and once we got the go-ahead from dispatcher John “Sparky” Sikorski, we were on our way with Lou at the controls. It was great to hear those all-too-familiar sounds again: the moaning, groaning spur-cut bull and pinion gears, the throbbing compressor, the snarl and hiss along with the accompanying “tch-ssss” magnet valve sound as the brakes were applied, and the sounds of the doors as they opened and closed. For this author, it was a trip back in time to when these cars still carried revenue passengers in New York on the IND and in later years, the BMT’s Eastern Division.
We returned to Avenue L, and because we had to wait while a streetcar carrying paying guests made a round trip, most of us walked over to 6688. We boarded through one of the storm doors via a portable wooden stairway. Inside, the car looked great. The cab doors were open, and it afforded an opportunity to check out the breakers and especially the lever-style door controls up close. Thurston (Mr. R T) Clark produced a door key, and those of us who wanted to work the doors had a chance to do so. Then it was time for a group picture (one of many taken that day), and some who had cameras had a chance to put the self timer feature to use for the first time! Because of the rain and drizzle, 6688 was put away shortly afterwards because it was in the process of being repainted and had only a coat of primer.
The noon hour had arrived and some went to get lunch while others went for a ride on one of the streetcars. A few of us rode on TARS (Third Avenue Railway System) 629, operated by Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse. Several people got a rare glimpse at the Mineola, August Belmont’s private subway parlor car which at this time needs major restoration and is not normally accessible by the general public.
By this time, the mainline was ours once again, and we reboarded 1689. Now the fun part began: handle time for Subtalkers! Everyone who either joined the museum as a member that day or contributed to the cost of the charter had an opportunity to operate the car under Lou’s supervision. This went on all afternoon between streetcar runs. All in all, 1689 made a total of nine round trips – more than on any other day it was operated. Kudos to Lou for his limitless patience and expert instruction!
The list of attendees reads like a who’s who on Subtalk: Steve Bulota aka Steve B 8AVEXP; Doug Diamond aka BMTman; Thurston Clark; Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse; Lou Levinson aka Lou from Brooklyn; John “Sparky” Sikorski aka John S., Harry Beck, webmaster of www.nycrail.com featuring The Other Side of the Tracks; Kevin and Nancy McAleavey aka SelkirkTMO and bingbong; Jeff Rosen aka Sgt. Jeff; Joe Roth; Jeff H., resident technical expert par excellence; Bill Newkirk, whose subway calendar photos receive rave reviews; Subway Surf (Andee); Mike Fendrich; David Cole; Larry Fendrick aka Notchit along with his girlfriend Marie (Notchette) and her daughter, Deanna; Piotr from Poland; Larry Redbird R-33, who possesses a wealth of NYC transit trivia; CI Peter aka On the Juice; RIPTA42Hope Tunnel aka Mike; Bob and Linda Andersen.
Because of the number of attendees, handle time was limited to either an outbound or an inbound run. Eventually, handle time was rationed to quarter-runs; i. e., two people per outbound or inbound run. Even the streetcar operators had some handle time. Once the museum had closed to the public for the day, Subtalk Day participants were treated to a cake baked by Chris Leverett and served aboard 1689. As always, all good things come to an end, and after one last group picture including the operators and dispatcher, it came time to put 1689 back in its barn and close up for the night. We made our way back to the Sprague Building, where museum staff personnel changed out of their uniforms. Then it was off to an Italian dinner for a dozen of us at Aniello’s Pizza located in Trolley Square near the museum before going our separate ways. The consensus opinion was that a good time was had by all and that this event should be continued in the future.
A special thanks also to Sparky for keeping things going smoothly and efficiently all day long from his dispatcher’s post.
Nice Job Steve,
A couple of quickie comments.
>>>"Now the fun part began: handle time for Subtalkers! Everyone who either joined the museum as a member that day or contributed to the cost of the charter had an opportunity to operate the car under Lou’s supervision."<<<
The minimum requirement for Handle Time for members was a regular or higher category of membership.
Also you had to be a member of the museum & contributor to ride the Charter. This priveledge was not accorded to visitors or museum members.
Also please note that the operating staff at the museum [the penguins] were also contributors to the costs, there were no freebies. We all shared the costs. Thanks guys.
;-) Sparky
I stand corrected on all of this. Thanks for pointing it out. I will make changed where needed.
I realy fine report, I have only one very small point to make, we refer to Piort as Piort the Pole because of his skill at turning the pole AND his national origin.
Wait a minute ... being the one who gave him the monicker,
it is correctly "Peter The Pole". And watch that stuff about
Polski's and Poles.
;-) Sparky
Thanks.
I just read the thread
Peter The Pole
Piotr,
Nima Zaco.
;-) Sparski
Here is my subsequent draft with corrections suggested by several of you. Thanks for your input and feedback. Give it a once over if you would, please. Again, if you have a preference as to how you would like to be referred to, speak now or forever hold your peace. I will be submitting my report to Dave Pirmann next week. An abridged version will appear in The Tripper. Note: my handle time account is based on Lou's instructions. Lou, feel free to chime in if you see anything inaccurate. Kev, your comments are welcome, too.
The first Subtalk Day at the Shoreline Trolley Museum was held on Sunday, October 13, 2002. A fairly large group of regular Subtalk posters attended on what was for the most part a gray, dreary, drizzly day. R-9 1689, specially chartered for the day, was the main attraction. TARS 629 and Montreal’s 2001 carried museum visitors, with Johnstown Traction Company 357 and Connecticut Company 775 making one trip apiece.
The charter was open specifically to those who were both museum members and contributors to the cost of the charter. The operating staff also contributed to the cost.
The day began for most Subtalkers with breakfast at the Twin Pines diner not far from the museum. From there it was off to the Sprague Building, where we parked and went inside. The staff members and operators changed into their uniforms while the rest of us either took in the subway interlocking signal in the lobby or filled out membership paperwork. Once all was ready, we walked along the track to the barn area, where the first order of business was to rouse 1689 from its peaceful slumber. The car looked terrific! Kevin McAleavey aka Selkirk TMO, who once operated the R-1/9s as a motorman on the IND D line, raised its trolley pole and went through his favorite motorman’s ritual of flipping switches and circuit breakers and as he did, 1689 came to life. He also took the time to answer questions about the car in general. The last step was to set the marker lights on the end facing the barn door to green-green, the proper combination for a D train running express in the Bronx. While waiting for the car to charge up, R-17 6688 was brought out of its barn with Kevin’s wife, Nancy aka bingbong, at the controls under the watchful eye of Lou (from Brooklyn) Levinson, our expert instructor for the day. Unlike 1689, 6688 was not chartered; it was brought out so that we Subtalkers could have a closer look at it. Once 6688 was parked, Lou and Nancy joined us aboard 1689, which by then was all charged up and ready to roll. Lou slowly nudged the 42-ton car out of the barn toward the reverse loop track. After we passed the barn spur switch, we reversed direction. Nancy threw the switch and Kevin took over the controls at the other end of the car, piloting it down the mainline past Narrangansett Siding. Once again we reversed direction, and after the switch to the the high-level loading platform was thrown, Lou brought the car to a stop at the platform. It’s a station setup named Avenue L, so named after a former station on the Canarsie line which no longer exists. We waited for our turn to proceed onto the mainline and once we got the go-ahead from dispatcher John “Sparky” Sikorski, we were on our way with Lou at the controls. It was great to hear those all-too-familiar sounds again: the moaning, groaning spur-cut bull and pinion gears, the throbbing compressor, the snarl and hiss along with the accompanying “tch-ssss” magnet valve sound as the brakes were applied, and the sounds of the doors as they opened and closed. For this author, it was a trip back in time to when these cars still carried revenue passengers in New York on the IND and in later years, the BMT’s Eastern Division.
We returned to Avenue L, and because we had to wait while a streetcar carrying paying guests made a round trip, most of us walked over to 6688. We boarded through one of the storm doors via a portable wooden stairway. Inside, the car looked great. The cab doors were open, and it afforded an opportunity to check out the breakers and especially the lever-style door controls up close. Thurston (Mr. R T) Clark produced a door key, and those of us who wanted to work the doors had a chance to do so. Then it was time for a group picture (one of many taken that day), and some who had cameras had a chance to put the self timer feature to use for the first time! Because of the rain and drizzle, 6688 was put away shortly afterwards because it was in the process of being repainted and had only a coat of primer.
The noon hour had arrived and some went to get lunch while others went for a ride on one of the streetcars. A few of us rode on TARS (Third Avenue Railway System) 629, operated by Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse. Several people got a rare glimpse at the Mineola, August Belmont’s private subway parlor car which at this time needs major restoration and is not normally accessible by the general public.
By this time, the mainline was ours once again, and we reboarded 1689. Now the fun part began: handle time! This was an exclusive privilege offered to museum members of regular or higher category of membership. Because of the high turnout, handle time was limited to either an outbound or an inbound run. Eventually, handle time was rationed to quarter-runs; i. e., two people per outbound or inbound run. Even the streetcar operators had some handle time. This went on all afternoon under Lou’s supervision between streetcar runs. All in all, 1689 made a total of nine round trips – more than on any other day it was operated. Kudos to Lou for his limitless patience and expert instruction!
Handle time was something like this: hold the controller down while in the coast position with your right hand and move the reverse key forward with your left hand. At this point the side destination signs illuminate. Now without letting up on the controller, hold the handle down with your left hand and release the brakes with your right hand. Check to make sure you have a clear track and give two toots on the whistle. Move the controller to switching (first point) and as the car picks up speed, peg it up to series (second point). Cut power before reaching the first curve and coast through it. Reapply power after clearing the curve and cut it once again before the insulating block. Listen for the click, then reapply power once again. Now we're on the straightaway headed directly for Narrangansett Siding. Peg it up to parallel (third point) and feel the car accelerate. Keep an eye out for anyone or anything near the track at all times. Take a reduction as you approach the switch. Lap. Repeat as needed to bring the car to a full stop. Once the switch is set for diverging, move the controller to switching and once the car gets moving, cut power and coast to the platform, applying the brakes as before for a (hopefully) perfect alignment along Avenue L. Whew!
If we were in New York, there would be a two-buzz highball from the conductor before proceeding, signifying the doors are closed and locked. 1689's buzzer still works and was used for highballs on outbound runs.
The list of attendees reads like a who’s who on Subtalk: Steve Bulota aka Steve B 8AVEXP; Doug Diamond aka BMTman; Thurston aka Mr. rt; Chris Leverett aka Anon_e_mouse; Lou Levinson aka Lou from Brooklyn; John “Sparky” Sikorski aka John S., Harry Beck, webmaster of www.nycrail.com featuring The Other Side of the Tracks; Kevin and Nancy McAleavey aka SelkirkTMO and bingbong; Jeff Rosen aka Sgt. Jeff; honorary Subtalker Joe Roth; Jeff H., resident technical expert par excellence; Bill Newkirk, whose subway calendar photos receive rave reviews; Subway Surf (Andee); Mike Fendrich; David Cole; Larry Fendrick aka Notchit along with his girlfriend Marie (Notchette) and her daughter, Deanna; Peter the Pole aka NJCoastExp; Larry Redbird R-33, who possesses a wealth of NYC transit trivia; CI Peter aka On the Juice; Mike Pompili aka RIPTA42Hope Tunnel; Bob and Linda Andersen, and Jeff Babbitt, who had handle time on 2001.
Once the museum had closed to the public for the day, Subtalk Day participants were treated to a cake baked by Chris Leverett and served aboard 1689. As always, all good things come to an end, and after one last group picture which included the operators and dispatcher, it came time to put 1689 back in its barn and close up for the night. We made our way back to the Sprague Building, where museum staff personnel changed out of their uniforms. Then it was off to an Italian dinner for a dozen of us at Aniello’s Pizza located in Trolley Square near the museum before going our separate ways. The consensus opinion was that a good time was had by all and that this event should be continued in the future.
A special thanks also to Sparky for keeping things going smoothly and efficiently all day long from his dispatcher’s post.
AMEN.
;-) Sparky
Small, teeny tiny detail - Unca Lou raised the pole for 1689 ... but otherwise, nice and lengthy bro. :)
Thanks, I'll fix it. Lou must have opened 1689's barn and gone to fetch 6688 right away.
Yep ... that's pretty much how it went. I didn't know where the trolley pole was or whether I should put it up, so I waited until Unca Lou came back. I imagine he expected I'd just raise it, but I didn't want to do that without supervision just in case there was a procedure I wasn't aware of. Worked out nicely for Nancy though, she got to roll out a redbird and she loved every minute of it. :)
looks great!
thanks for the efforts
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
Just moving any trainset more than five feet out of 'powertest' was an absolute priviledge and honor. Some of the 239th and 180th crew gave me the biz..'Well, I know how to....' but they never did. I prefer self lapping brakes...you can release the brake handle and watch your DVD!!! BTW: today the garbage roll-off had a surprise...a dozen brake slack adjuster tools had been tossed in..I got two...and they will be modified IF they do not 'walk' from my rolling tool crib. CI Peter
Manual lapping brakes ain't so bad ... unlike the old BMT, you get to exercise the same hand that would get you in TROUBLE if someone on the platform saw you using that hand for "other purposes" ... one of these days, TWU will go for that darker covering for cab glass like they've got on many limos these days ... it's make every crossover in the SYSTEM a "JO interlocking." :)
I know THAT hand...it is the very same one observed in action at 239th being used in a transverse cab when I started in TA. Bombardier should have used polarised window glass.
That hand gets REAL strong in government service. :)
Excellent report!
A correction and an addendum: MikeF is Fraser, not Fendrich, and avid reader said he was there but worshipped, er, observed from afar.
Too bad he didn't acknowledge his presence.
Gone back to lurking here, but I saw a smile on his face most of that day ;-)
I just downloaded BVE and already IM Having problems. Every time I
play this message comes up saying "this program has been performing
illegal actions and must be terminated." I have had this problem
before with the same program and I have tried everything. Uninstalling it, scanning for
viruses, everything. If it helps I have a Compaq presario 5304, 4 GB of memory total, 64mb ram, 512k pipeline burst cache, made in 1999. Can
someone e-mail me and help me?
Thanks in Advance
BTW: To LuchAAA, Your partially right about the Second Avenue line. Only the 4 and 5 run above subway capacity, but I still stick by what I say (If anyone remembers what I said).
That should be MORE than enough "computer", might be a bad install or something's missing.
Suggest checking THIS page:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_tshoot.htm
The site at large should hopefully have the answers. It's most likely that you don't have "DirectX" installed or didn't collect all the needed files. Full explanation of how to install and then enjoy BVE can be found here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Good luck with BVE. It sounds like a cool program. But all graphic-intensive program cause problems from time to time with different hardware (even things as "standard" as Microsoft Flight Simulator (which I admit to liking).
"BTW: To LuchAAA, Your partially right about the Second Avenue line. Only the 4 and 5 run above subway capacity, but I still stick by what I say (If anyone remembers what I said). "
No, he's not, actually. He's misrepresenting the state of the line. And even if he were, the 4 and 5 being over-capacity is only half the problem. The other half is the Lex doesn't serve anyone on the Far East Side, either above or below 63rd Street.
I had BVE but had to take it out of my computer, since it seemed to be crashing with the new AOL 8.0.
It was a great program, but anything that lets you blow through red and keep going, isn't realistic enough for me.
Might wanna complain to the author about that then. FWIW, you can get past reds on a REAL railroad too ya know. :)
But not on the subway. The NYC subway layouts lacked grade timers and train stopping from passing RED signals.
Well, do bear in mind that BVE is a RAILROAD simulator, not rapid transit and the authors for the subway routes did as much as they could with the way the graphics engine was designed. I can live with it. After all, even if you don't get tripped on the subway, you pass a red, you're done so you just DON'T.
I look at it as authorized key-by if I do. :)
"And even if he were, the 4 and 5 being over-capacity is only half the problem. The other half is the Lex doesn't serve anyone on the Far East Side, either above or below 63rd Street. "
Well, it serves them -- it just doesn't serve them very well. I used to live at 91/York and remember way too many 15-20 minute cold/rainy walks over to 86/Lex. Of course, that was 1996 and pre Metrocard bus/subway transfer but there's still nothing* other than the Lex.
CG
* - Well, almost nothing. Since the bus/subway transfer was implemented, there are many more east-siders who take the bus across the park and take the CPW lines down. This seems to occur more with the M79 than the M86, but the number isn't trivial.
Also try opening the directX diagnosis (start>run>dxdiag) and click on the sound tab. Look at your "Hardware sound acceleration level" Try turning it down a level or two or three, depending on if BVE keeps crashing. I had a similar problem, and thats how I fixed it.
Hey all,
I just got to school, on the way in I managed a ride on one of PATCO's original double ended Budd trains (the first cars, #101-125, IIRC). I shoulda grabbed the RFW, or the one of the two seats behind it (the third back is great, good view out the front, and a good view of the T/Os position, assuming he doesn't draw the curtain), but didn't realize that one was open until we were almost in Haddonfield, so two other people grabbed them when we pulled in there.
Anyway, on to my question, has anyone ridden car #102, it really is pretty different. The panels above the doors are rounded in this very strange manner, not like the flat panels on every other car, and the lights indicating door closures and openings were these strange yellow warning lights, mounted on the frame next to the door, also the bells didn't seem to work, the one faded in and out, while the one that I assume was for the other set of doors would work at one station, then not work at another, at those times I could hear the other car's bells working.
One last thing, does anybody ever remember seeing a double ended car working solo? I've seen the photo of one at the bottom of the PATCO section on this site, was that car inservice, or was it an extra movement?
I haven't noticed recently, but years ago when I could see PATCO from my house in Collingswood, single cars running solo were common on Sundays.
I do recall seeing a 'different' car in my infrequent trips on PATCO, with the different indicator lights ringing a bell (no pun intended) in my mind. Whether the warning bell is different is a different matter - I've been told that the system often shorts, especially in cold and wet weather, and I've experienced this on many different runs, conceivably on many different cars.
Single-car operation is another topic. PATCO ran the singles in overnight and Sunday/holiday service from the beginning up until the late 80's, I believe. When the Vickers cars arrived in '80, they became the mainstays of base service and the Budd cars were relegated to second-class status, more or less. The Budds were rehabbed in the mid/late 80's but the singles still stayed in peak-hour only service. I recall that many Ferry Ave shorts usually ran 4/6-car solid trains of singles. For at least the last 10 years the minimum size train on PATCO is 2 cars.
The singles also have the single-leaf door directly behind the operator stand. This was originally to be used in off hours when fare gates would be opened and riders would pay fares on the trains, collected by the operators (similar to Cleveland). I don't believe this ever happened, although the single doors did get used from time to time. I saw this happen when employees were picked up at the tower adjacent to Broadway station (in the open cut, there is a small 'platform' of sorts for this purpose) - the operator would spot the single door at the platform and pick up/drop off riders there, usually opening the door with his key rather than from the control stand.
The first time I rode PATCO is was a signle car -- on New Years Eve, 1981.
PATCO has not used single cars in operation in at least ten years. I believe the reason they stopped using the cars were due to excessive failures with the double-ended cars. After midnight, PATCO will run two single cars connected together with the rear car powered down. Therefore if the lead car fails, they can operate from the rear car. Sounds plausible, I wonder if that situation has ever occurred?
You are wrong, they still use single cars as demand dictates and I have been on and seen many single car trains since 1992. Until recently they usually only used single cars on Sunday nights. Just recently I heard a crew mentioning that they now run double cars all the time due to the decreased headways from the tie repair project.
they now run double cars all the time due to the decreased headways from the tie repair project.
Here's a recent photo of the PATCO tie replacement project, taken on Oct 27 on my way home from the Rockhill Trolley Museum's SEPTA Route 23 PCC charter.
I "accidentally" stumbled onto this one which is probably required reading for everyone on this board.
How We Got to Coney Island: The Development of Mass Transportation in Brooklyn and Kings County, by Brian Cudahy, due December 2002
And has anyone heard of this book, listed as "just published", that is currently up for bids on eBay? The Brooklyn and Queens Transit by Harold K. Smith and Frederick Kramer
--Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the heads up. The "How We Get To Coney Island" on Amazon,
is a good deal with pre-publication pricing.
As for the B&QT, Kramer's books usually show up at my favored
"Trolley Museum" and I expect this one will also. If it doesn't
it's "shame ~ shame" on somebodies "six".
;-) Sparky
Sparky, the B&QT is for sale at Branford. Karen said they just received it. I thumbed through it between operating trips and it had some excellent pictures. I will probably purchase a copy even though I'm really an RT fan.
I'm pretty sure I've seen the B&QT book at Barnes & Noble on Staten Island, so your local B&N may have it also.
Thanks Sarge,
I'm on one of my "keep the chief dispatcher" happy interims, so I
haven't been visual at my favorite "Trolley Museum" of late.
Will pick it up on the sixteenth. It's a must have for all
B&QT Trolleynauts and endorsed by a RTnaut.
;-) Sparky
Mark, I have the B&QT book in front of me as I write this. I purchased it at the Gaithersburg Show on Sunday.
It is an 80 page book, packed with b & w photos of trolleys. There is very little text with the book concentrating on the photos and picture captions. The pictures seem to be of excellent quality. I paid 3/4 of the starting bid price shown in the eBay auction.
Karl B,
Thanks for the heads up. The price start on ebay is most likely
suggested list price, which for a new book is bullsheet. Well
after the piece on 60 Minutes Sunday, they say you can & will
sell anything on ebay. Well, its buyer beware.
May not get as deep a discount as you received, but have to support
my local "Trolley Museum". And of coarse the communist state
of constipation charges you sales tax also. Have to feed those
greedy son of female dogs. >G<
;-) Sparky
Sparky, Knowing of your interest in trolley pictures, I think you will really like this book!
Karl,
I likely will, just hoping there will be some pictures from
Brooklyn North, besides Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza. In the
early forties, there were some great lines that served that
section of the borough. Haven't been too successful in
locating same.
;-) Sparky
Thanks for the heads up, Karl ... I don't intend to bid on it on eBay especially since I know it just came out. But I will purchase it.
--Mark
Mark,
At least we know you aren't the person who opened the bidding on Ebay.
;-) Sparky
Still only one bid, twenty four hours later.
;-) Sparky
That should be a good book. One of Brian Cudahy's other books, "Under the Sidewalks of New York", is a great book for anyone needing "Subway 101". When I first started college, and was first really interested in the subway, my college library had the original 1970's version of that book. So many questions I had were answered in that book, especially knowing very little history about the subway at the time. Then I found the reprint version a few years later at the transit museum gift shop.
If you can read german, here's another new one:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3861532743/qid=1036617031/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_18_1/028-6886578-8863704
yeap, that's a peter dougherity photo of city hall stop on the cover. i've got 3 of my own in there...
-joe
I might try to get the book if I can. It might be interesting to see how the transit system in Brooklyn developed
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff,
Using a CC, it can be pre-ordered from Amazon.Com at the pre-publication price plus $3.99 shipping for the softcover version.
That's the route to go, if you really want it, that is.
;-) Sparky
The hardcover edition to this book is already out ... it's $45.00 at Amazon.
--Mark
Thanks, but I'll wait for the soft cover and expend the differential
on something more lucrative. I have something in mind.
;-) Sparky
Still only the single bidder on ebay with 68 hits.
;-) Sparky
SF MUNI PCC # 1060, the Newark Public Service Car, derailed around two this morning as it made the left turn from Steuart Street onto Market. No passengers were aboard the car as it jumped off of the tracks and plowed into a light pole alongside the Hyatt-Regency Hotel at the foot of Market. SFFD paramedics transported the operator to San Francisco General Hospital after he complained of back pain. He was later treated and released. MUNI crews removed the damaged car from the sidewalk and towed it to Geneva Barn around 5:00am local time. The mishap did not affect morning service. 1060 was making its final run of the night when the crash occurred and it was not carrying any passengers. No word yet on what caused the accident. TV station KRON reports the car is quote "Totaled". It sustained major damage to the right side between the front and rear doors.
George Devine, Jr.
San Francisco, CA
Well, that makes four of the fourteen cars now out of service due to accidents.
The Brooklyn car got quite banged up with it hit a truck a couple months back. The Kansas City car rear ended another one, rendering both useless.
It's a good thing Muni found four of their own original 1000 series cars up near Lake Tahoe, and bought back the two that were rotting at the Orange Empire Railway Musem in southern California!!
"It's a good thing Muni found four of their own original 1000 series cars up near Lake Tahoe, and bought back the two that were rotting at the Orange Empire Railway Musem in southern California!! '
I am a family member of that fine museum and they are doing an excellnt job of rail car restoration (s)!!
and on thier entire fleet fine rail museum pieces including PE Blimps nad Lary narrow gaug cars !!
and being on the desert they do not rot away ! A MUST VISIT FOR ANY EASTCOASTER !!
Those MUNI cars at OERM have been there for years and haven't had a thing done to them. At leastnow something WILL be done now that they are going back to San Francisco.
allright then thank the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM for saving them from scrap !! i have seen them on the center tracks waithing to be restored ! they can only do so much at a time there it is not like they are filthy rich and have unlimited funds there !!
everybody is a volunteer there ....
Just to let you know, the two OERM PCC's haven't been moved to San Francisco yet, and I'm not even sure the sale is finalized.
Frank Hicks
oh really ! well then they are still parked on the center tracks of
the museum area near where the PE Blimps are stored along with the
other PE Cars etc..a gang of PCC type equipment all waiting thier
turn for restoration ! Also there is a nice "Bullet High Speed Car"
man that sucker is slick !! ( nice )
I feel comfortable everytime i am out there surrounded up close by all
of that railroad and rail transit museum classic pieces !!
An excellent place for photographers to go crazy shooting off still shots and the nighbt events out there in da' desert is an adventure in
itself ! I am glad i am a family member !!
They have quite a number of PCC restorables at the largest western rail museum ...I beleive the illinios museum is the #1 Largest
how bout this train dude ??
That is the best way for railfans to practice their hobby. Restrictions on civil liberties will only get worse as the war goes on. Al-Qa'ida is sure to respond to our VAPORIZING those six pig terrorists in Yemen. Today's realities call for railfans to work closely with their museums and gain opportunities to earn ALL ACCESS to rail operations. Trade in your cameras for work clothes and a GOOD set of tools. I did that 15 years ago and have NEVER looked back. Railfan window, Heck, I ride IN THE CAB OF AN >>>E8<<< ***LEGALLY*** during excursions, My EXPERTISE is NEEDED there. foamers can go play with their cameras, we MAKE E8s GO, hauling mommies and daddies riding the CHOO-CHOO and watching foamers chase us in cars breaking traffic laws and NEVER buying a ticket.
watching foamers chase us in cars breaking traffic laws and NEVER buying a ticket.
It's amazing that more accidents are not caused by that.
On a similar note, while on the subject of taking photography almost to extremes: A few years ago I went on a "Farewell to the old LIRR diesels" fantrip. It was one of the old diesels that they ran on some of the electric branches. It started at West Hempstead, and by the end of the trip we were headed to Long Beach. There were a few photo stops along the way. But one of the funniest scenes (or spectacle actually) happened at the Island Park station. A photo stop was scheduled there. The scene of this and the motorists at the grade crossing at the station was priceless. Here they were, just stopping at the gates for what they thought would be a normal station stop. But this train pulls in, stops at the station and hundreds of people holding cameras, tripods, etc come running off the train and start setting tripods up in the middle of the street and everywhere around the stopped motorist's cars, along the tracks, etc. People came out of the stores there and all of a sudden there seemed to be people everywhere - and jumping in front of cars, etc. It was as if Island Park was under seige! Of course you could image that tensions started to flair when the motorists figured out that their seemingly normal 1 or 2 minute grade crossing stop was not going to be over very quick, especially with tripods in front of their cars. A lot of choice words started getting yelled out and horns were blowing. But people just continued to just stand anywhere. The tripods all over the middle of the street is a vision I will never forget. Finally it was decided to make everyone move out of the road and hold open the gates to allow the motorists to go through.
It just amazed me that seemingly intelligent people would think it was a good idea to just jump off of a train, and instead of using common sense, and getting out of the road, and off to the side, out of the way, just set up in the middle of the road!
All in all it was a fun trip, and the rest of the photo run-bys seemed a bit less chaotic, but I always get a smirk when I think of the Island Park station and what all those people around the station must have thought when that train stopped and all those people jumped off the train and pured into the street.
It started at West Hempstead
Oopps, I meant it started WITH West Hempstead, meaning the branch, not the station.
Actually, truth be told I think, IIRC, the train started at Jamaica, then the Port Washington Branch, and then to West Hempstead....not that it makes much of a difference.
I was on that trip, that scene was a scream. The townsfolk had never seen anything like this before, and they were not happy. My wife was with me, and she likes to bring up the foamer story every once in a while.
Similar was the last PCC day at Newark, foamers were all over the place, almost getting run over at the grade crossings, hanging off bridges, climbing on stuff. And they got really mad if you walked into their shot.
And they got really mad if you walked into their shot.
I remember my first "fantrip". It was also on the LIRR. It was a mixed consist of gondola cars and passenger cars behind the two MU Penn Station protect engines 102 and 104. We got to ride out all the way out to Greenport in the Gondola cars "open-air". It was so much fun.
The first photo runby was at Calverton. I didn't even know what a photo run-by was. I didn't realize people took this so seriously. I accidently walked in front of someone's shot when I was taking some photos, and at the end of the runby was almost given death threats by the person. I thought to myself this guy is nuts! It almost ruined the entire day for me! Then I figured it was him that was nuts and taking it way to seriously, and luckily just shrugged it off. There's a fine line between getting a good shot and fanaticism.
i can still shoot on the los angeles MTA system., However i will restrict my operations to digital stills only !
i have a contractors badge and i.d. so they wont bother me .
( metrolink commuter trains excluded )...oh well.............!
>>> That is the best way for railfans to practice their hobby <<<
Wait a minute! Who are you to define the best way for rail fans to practice their hobby. Some may have no interest in restoring old equipment and want to see, ride on and photograph modern equipment in revenue service. If you get your jollies by working on and operating old equipment, more power to you, but that is not somehow more pure or superior to one who travels all over the world to travel on and photograph different rail systems.
Tom
old tom i like doing both.!! the old and the new !!
old wine in new bottle ?
OLD tom, Railfans who continue to do it the old way will face increasing harrassment from the authorities. The voters have spoken in Tuesday's election. They want strong homeland security and the Bush Administration and hundreds of new right wing judges will see to it that police/railroads have the power they need to basically shut down camera toting railfans. Without foamer interference and the bad reputation which it gives railbuffs in railroad circles, a museum can work with railroads in the areas of PR and donations of material,supplies and railroad equipment Photographers and trespassers make so much bad will that it limits ehe credibility of the museum movement. Last week I saw a picture of a U-25-B locomotive, a nearly extinct model of diesel. This photo was obviously taken from the top of a train on an adjacent track. If railfans did not do STUPID things like that, there would certainly be more examples of GE's first road diesel in museums, now all we got are some STUPID photos. Talk about the BOOBY prize. GO RAILROAD POLICE, Railfans should be sentenced to community service at the local rail museum. NOW THAT'S REHABILITATION.
Well then, the thing to do is to organize into a recognizable group that can demonstrate to the appropriate authorities that they are not a threat, and work out a deal for authorization/limits/identity.
Let me find out more from my airline foaming buddies what they are doing.
Airline foaming buddies are loading B-52s up with WP and gelled naptha. John Blair is verrrry correct...authorities are in 'skitters' about foamers with cameras and rightly so. I would like to produce a CD-ROM demonstating Redbird inspection procedures but there are intrinsic security problems despite my status and the trainsets will soon all be gone. CI Peter
Any subtalkers from the bay area?? San Frncisco County California...
& did the recent 70 mph winded rainstorm cause poere blackouts on any
of the rail transit systems in northern california ??
like BART , MUNI etc.. Also the storm went into sacramento ca.
did it stop the light rail there also ?
in so. cal we got light rain only !
Any subtalkers from the bay area?? San Frncisco County California...
& did the recent 70 mph winded rainstorm cause any blackouts on any
of the rail transit systems in northern california ??
like BART , MUNI etc.. Also the storm went into sacramento ca.
did it stop the light rail there also ?
in so. cal we got light rain only !
For all concerned, the operator was the only one on the car, and is now home.
1060 is pretty banged up with a fair amount of body damage. Any further details from the Left Coasters? Like what caused the car to derail?
>>> Any further details from the Left Coasters? Like what caused the car to derail? <<<
I think we can rule out shifting concrete blocks. :-)
Tom
The cause of the derailment was excessive speed, thought to be about 20mph. Cause of excessive speed is unknown. The car took a turn too fast and the rear truck derailed, apparently swinging out across the pavement and causing the car to broadside a pole of some sort.
Frank Hicks
Frank,
Thanks for your input. I've been following this post as to cause.
Very Politically Correct as to fault. Do you have any knowledge
of the other recent PCC accidents at MUNI that were posted?
If so the input would be appreciated.
;-) Sparky
"Do you have any knowledge of the other recent PCC accidents at MUNI that were posted?"
There are two other PCC's that I know are out of service with wreck damage. One is the Kansas City car (1056), which is semipermanently sidelined with major damage, and the other is the Brooklyn car (1053), which is apparently being repaired. I think that both of those accidents involved the PCC rear-ending a road vehicle of some sort, but I'm not absolutely sure. Below is the URL of a report on F-Line & SFMR historical equipment status as of two days ago.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SFMuniHistory/message/10444
Frank Hicks
Sounds like the Body Doctors out there are going to have their hands full!
wayne
The Brooklyn car (1053) reportedly could not stop in time to avoid a truck making an illegal U-turn in front of the PCC. Not sure of the location.
The Kansas City car was involved in a rear-end collision with another PCC! Not sure if it was the hitter or the hittee.
i am going to go out there and check to see how many MUNI PCCs
are still at the orange empire museum !!
I bet they will still be there for a long time !!
I can think of a few Republicans you might want to do this to, based on their passenger rail funding votes, but Amtrak better hope the Democrats maintain control of the Senate after this little fiasco.
This happens all the time, but most people without the benifit of a scanner would never notice. At least 1-3 times per longer distance trip you will head the C/R give the E/R the "highball" and the train will start to move slowly before the C/R then tells the E/R to stop the train for some reason (usually a scrambling passenger on either the platform or inside the train). Every time this has happened, the train crew has gone out of their way to sucessfully accomidate the wayward passenger.
Politicians are SPECIAL people. Waters are supposed to part of their own free will.
That’s special as used in the phrase Special Education. Right?
Yep, and "Special interests" as well. Moo. :)
And what is wrong with that? If you can't do a good job with a VIP on board then maybe he has a point.
Well, I'd pretty much say they're done. Times have officially changed, "another one rides the bus." :(
What *IS* it with these moron republicans? Couldn't he have asked a conductor to stop the train or figure out what that red cord is for? Geez. *SO* close to a 12-9 and yet not far enough. So I take it this is Amtrak's fault? Maybe next time he should take the PLANE. :)
He's a railfan so his subconsious was probably egging him on to jump from the moving train just so he could have a story about jumping from a moving train. He is also a polition so after bowing to his his railfan instincts, his political instinct was to complain and bitch.
I guess Amtrak needs to install a GRANDSTAND at the end of each high level platform. :)
Form: 9.5
Reaction time: 6.2
Political insight: 9.8
Long-term judgment: 2.0
Dear Railfans,
Here is a link to the story which appears in today's Journal News.
We've even got a picture on the front page, lots of Subway products
inside and celebrities wearing them.
This link has the story only, no pics. Don't believe the $1M bucks though,I said I was "edging up" on that in sales. (But, I'm an optimist!) : )
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/110502/05nyc.subway.html
Subway grrl
Congrats! Publicity is always a good thing ...
You go grrl!
See? Transit and radio together lives in many places!
Congratulations.
"What I'm finding is that people really love their trains," she says. "They come up to me and say, 'Hey, you haven't done the J train yet.'
So, why haven't you? :)
Congrats!
--Mark
I'm waiting for the Slant (diamond) Q.
wayne
Mostly money!
Each train - once I do it, has to be inventoried in all 3 colors and
5 adult sizes, plus 3 youth sizes. Then people want me to do the larger sizes as well. Whew! It's a big commitment!
But I will eventually do them all, or my nickname's not Subwaygrrl!
Thanks for your congrats!
Instead of going to the "Transit Museum" Stores, deal direct
with the source. I'm a larger structured male and her product
doesn't use skimpy sizing. Her double X adults are full size.
Many items, I have to buy triple X, which are meager. It's a
quality product, worth the price and a portion supports the
"NYCTA Transit Museum". I ordered the two colors for my line
and received the order mucho pronto. 2 days service. That
was the blue & gray for the 'G' Line. The store does stock
the black in adult sizes. Want the other colors order direct.
Also this is an unsolicited endorsement, wish we could get such
arrangements at the Trolley Museums, a % of sales without outlay
up front.
;-) Sparky
Lynne,
Congrats.
It is nice to see you get the recognition from the media that you deserve.
You were always getting recognition from most of us here via word of mouth but that can only go so far.
BTW - has the TM asked you to do anything or have you planned on your own to have anything special for the 100th Anniversary in 2004?
Regards,
Allan
good news- They are starting to renovate this station and even better- it is an in-house job. Most of the pretty stations such as 81 IND are in-house rehabs (as is Houston and 18 on the 1, Sheepshead Bay,5th Ave N R W etc.
A heads up: sometime in July the booth and station will close for six months due to renovation.
Does that mean during those 6 months there will be a shuttle bus at 181 and 200 Streets for those who want 191 Streets?
There was no shuttle bus when 181 was closed.
Most passengers will probably opt to take the A instead. The elevator (which is outside fare control) had better remain in service -- it's a hefty climb from Broadway to St. Nicholas.
I thought there was a free transfer to the M3 if you got on/off at 168 or 191 St to go to 181 St.
A few years ago when TA was rebuilding the elevators at one of the stations on the 1 line, (I forget where at the moment) they had shuttle bus service from the station before it to the one after it.
I do not know. As far as another poster's question about the A train-- you do not need the elevators ate either station:
from 191 ont he 1 use the tunnel to Broadway Cross Broadway att he street which is 190th. Walk onme block to Bennett and turn right after crossing Bennett after walkingn about 1- 1 1/2 blocks you'll see doors in the side of the hill--that si the tunnel to 190 on the A.
Be careful at both stations-- kids liek to riude their bikes at high speed down the hills. throught he tunnel and up the elevators to repeat the process.
Yeah, I love it when the cops in the 191 St station yell at the kids.
But if you're coming from street level at St. Nicholas, you do need the elevators to take you to the tunnel. (More importantly, to get back up to St. Nicholas from the tunnel, you need the elevators unless you're ready for a workout.)
Good news there, that's one of the seedier-looking IRT stations.
wayne
And in some places on that station, as bad or worse than Chambers ont he J. I have seen bare steel and falling concrete. When it rains, it pius in the station!
I'll have Peggy contact you to arrange a tour at some time in the future.
I wish they would do more "in-house" jobs. 18th and Houston are some of the nicest station rehabs in the system (in addition to 81st/CPW and the rest mentioned).
For laughs, I did a google image search using "Myrtle Ave El". One of the weirdest pics that popped up was this one from Joe Korman's website. Where on earth are those tracks going? That aint the Lexington Ave. connection, cuz that building that's blocking the tracks looks to have been built well before 1950:
The old "main line", which was abandoned in the early 20th century?
wayne
Would any of that structure survive into the late 1960's?
That piece of structure (to the Park Avenue L) lasted until the very end of the Myrtle Avenue Line.
The antiquity of its abandonment (1891) is demonstrated by the fact that the abandoned structure pointed at some very old tenament buildings, which were obviously built after the Park Avenue was abandoned.
I'm shocked a building would be built so close to the steelwork. The 2nd floor view must've been awful.
And most of that building's life must have been with that right in front of it, the building already looks quite old by the time that photo was taken!
IIRC the BRT main line which started at Myrtle/Grand was abondoned early on. 1890-1900. So as old as the building is, the line was even older!
Does anyone know the exact block where that spur was? I'd love to see if that building that used to have the spur going inot it's windows is still there. Anyone know?
I'd say Myrtle Ave between Steuben St and Grand Ave.
>>>"Steuben St"<<< PLEASE CLARIFY, we are speaking of Brooklyn.
;-) Sparky
>>>"Steuben St"<<< PLEASE CLARIFY, we are speaking of Brooklyn.
Look at a map, perfectly possible in Brooklyn along Myrtle. Classon, Emerson, Steuben, Grand. Although I am still having troble understanding what that spur was for, where it went, and abandoned already in the late 1800's.
Look at this map. Brooklyn 1888
http://brorson.org/maps/NYC/Brooklyn_1886/Brooklyn_1886_Level2_702_1195.html
It shows the spur going north on Grand Ave from Myrtle Ave, west on Park toward the Brooklyn Bridge. Then press the down arrow at the bottom of the page to show how it connected with the rest of the lines at the Bridge.
Thanks, very interesting. See, you learn something new every day. I never even knew that line existed! It looks like that was the original route of the Lexington El, actually predating the Myrtle El (I can't tell what that line on Myrtle means. It looks like that may mean a surface street car line?). I always wondered about why the Lexington El even existed. It always seemed redundant to me, especially in the context I have always seen it in between Myrtle/Grand and Broadway. I really had no idea that it actually crossed Myrtle at one time. It also seems that it predates what became the Broadway El, because it bends off of Broadway, down Lexington, the Broadway El is not there going West at that location.
Anyone know of where I can find other info on the old "Lexington Ave" line?
Yes, it was the first elevated line in Brooklyn. With Myrtle and Lexington Ave being built later, the Park Ave/York Ave. spur was considered redundant. It was abandoned prior to the electrification of the other elevateds in 1891.
Anyone know of where I can find other info on the old "Lexington Ave" line?
The Watson/Greller book.
I'd like to know what numbering system did the BMT use on their change booths on the Lexington Line?
I haven't read the entire thread, but found it familiar the way we sometimes find out about transit history little by little. I found out about the Lexington Ave. el and the old Mainline el in a piecemeal manner. I first heard it mentioned on LO-V fan trip during the mid 60's; and had never heard of it, nor had I known that the Myrtle Ave route, shown on the pre Chrystie St. TA maps, was about all that remained of the extensive Brooklyn el system. Over the next year or so, I found a battered 1948 Hagstrom map which showed the Lexington el route, and an early 40's street directory which listed it's stations and approximate running times from Park Row.
At an ERA meeting, shortly after I joined the N.Y. Division, I heard someone mention the "Park Ave. El." The Park Ave. El??? - again, I was given a brief explanantion, no info. as to it's complete route. I started buying older issues of N.Y. Division bulletins and reading the David Rogoff articles where he listed the abandoned and partially remaining BMT structures - that's where I found the first solid information about these routes. He described the remaining trackways visible under the Myrtle Ave. L, but it wasn't till I actually was underneath it that I was able to fully take in what he wrote about. Riding the Myrtle in '67 and '68 (after reading those articles) I do remember seeing the turnout in the Joe Korman picture.
In 1969 I mistakenly got off at Jay St. on the IND for the final "Q" fantrip on the Myrtle, the night after operations ended. Bridge/Jay, was fenced and completely sealed off.... "Oh ----!, I'll bet it started up at Broadway Myrtle I said to my brother who had come along - I had misread the fan trip flyer. So, we walked, trotted, walked, ran, trotted, etc. the entire southern length underneath the Myrtle up to Broadway. About halfway up, or so, I spotted the ancient trackways from the Park Ave. el intersecting underneath the Myrtle structure as described by Rogoff and the Lexington Ave turnout. So that morning, while rushing on my feet north, and stopping to glance upwards for probably about a minute, I finally could see and understand the track arrangement of the ancient junctions.
You're right, I erred. When I looked at the map index, I misspelled,
it's there. 2 blocks long between Park & Willoughby Aves.
;-) Sparky
I suggest you look at a map of Brooklyn. Steuben St currently runs 2 blocks from Flushing Ave to Myrtle Ave. Once upon a time it went to Lafayette. 3 more blocks. However it was demapped by 2 housing projects and Pratt Inst. built over there.
Not a very good photo. I'd say the pic was taken at the site of Myrtle Ave and Grand St. I don't think it's the beginning of the Lexington Ave El. But an older connection to the BRT line that ran north on Grand Ave then west on Park Ave when the BQE is now.
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/myrtleave/
Click on the link for Myrtle Jay
In the index bar for Myrtle Jay, the link for this picture is labeled "Cut off to Park Avenue"
Street map showing Park Avenue/York Street El
Gerhard Dahl, the former BMT president, used to live there and had direct service to his home through his private car, the Luciano.
:)
--Mark
>>>"his private car, the Luciano"<<< ROFL :)
Wonder whom was the motorman? Was it the "Double D"?
;-) Sparky
The Luciano, wasn't that one #726?
wayne
Before or after it's, er, renovations? :)
--Mark
The spur was killed by oppositon from NIMFW's (Not in My Front Window.)
IIRC, the elevated intersection of Myrtle and Grand was a joint venture between 2 Brooklyn RR companies. On that 1st day of operation, engines for both companies had a collision at the sight.
I wonder if neither engineer would concede anything.
Reminds me of that Looney Tunes cartoon with Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam headed toward each other on the same track, full speed ahead.
Does that necessarily have to be a turnout holding tracks? Could it just possibly be part of the el structure. If you drive along Bway along the "J"Train ROW there are some diagonal supports along the el.
If you drive along Bway along the "J"Train ROW there are some diagonal supports along the el.
Those diagnol "supports" along the el on the J are actually spurs/turnouts that went off the el. On the Broadway part of the el they are from the turnout for the old Lexington El. The ones near Crescent are the Chestnut St turnouts that used to lead to the LIRR Atlantic line. The LIRR used to use them to access the BRT el and run to Chambers Street back around the early part of the century. So those are indeed former track turnouts.
I wasn't talking about those locations. There are a number of diagonal supports along Broadway.
Just to clarify, the turnoff for the Lex was right at the corner of Bway and Ralph Av, where Lexington begins. (just w/o the Gates Av station) There is no trace of the turnout there at all. There is a diagonal support however there is the same type of diagonal supports by the Koscuiuscko St Station and several others where there were no turnouts and that could have been what was in the Myrtle Av picture.
As far as the Chestnut St flyover to the LIRR is concerned that is nowhere near any part of Broadway, that was on Fulton.
If you drive along Bway along the "J"Train ROW there are some diagonal supports along the el.
Those diagnal "supports" along the el on the J are actually spurs/turnouts that went off the el. On the Broadway part of the el they are from the turnout for the old Lexington El. The ones near Crescent are the Chestnut St turnouts that used to lead to the LIRR Atlantic line. The LIRR used to use them to access the BRT el and run to Chambers Street back around the early part of the century. So those are indeed former track turnouts.
I had to go to the Bronx today on business, and had the opportunity to ride the 5 from Fulton Street in downtown Manhattan to Pelham Parkway on the Dyre line. This was my first foray into that part of the system and particularly on the former NYW&B trackage.
There's actually some interesting things to see on this trip. Of course, there's the usual jaunt past the Worth Street and 18th Street stations. Up in the Bronx, I had the chance to glimpse the ironwork and truncated trackways that once led to the Bronx Park spur of the IRT. The many curves on the trip were enjoyable as well.
But the highlight of the trip was passing through the Unionport yard and making the transition from IRT trackage to the former NYW&B right of way. The abandoned East 180th Street NYW&B station is in plain sight and looks to be in pretty good shape. Its a railfan's dream - just sitting there with overgrown weeds covering the trackways and the old concrete trackbeds passing beyond the station into nothingness. Its appearance reminded me mostly of the appearance of the southern end of the LIRR Rockaway line, as it merges into today's A line - just rough concrete, some rusty and abandoned rails and a lot of foliage. Nifty!
The NYW&B right of way itself is pretty grand - reminds me a lot of the LIRR Rockaway line, with four widely spaced trackways. The Pelham Parkway station itself still has the concrete work on the outside of the station bearing the NYW&B logo. The logo is still visible even though its been painted over several times, apparently.
While waiting for the 5 on my return trip, I was struck by how quiet the station was, even when trains were passing through them. The station house was pretty nice, even in its old, fairly dilapidated state.
I couldn't help feeling a little sad about the failure of the NYW&B system; looks like they made a real go of it. Too bad it failed.
It's been a while since I've been up there (years actually). I also enjoyed the trip the last time I was there. It's a very interesting run (including the el before the Dyre line). I got to get up there one day.
I couldn't help feeling a little sad about the failure of the NYW&B system; looks like they made a real go of it. Too bad it failed.
The NYW&B was quite overengineered, what with the 4-track ROW and the grandiose station houses. The one thing it really needed, unfortunately, was what it did not have - a direct route into Manhattan.
I live in Westchester County and you can still see evidence of the NYW&B in quite a few places. There is a big stone bridge in Pelham that once carried the tracks of the once great NYW&B. In White Plains you can see evidence of a long gone overpass for the NYW&B. Too bad that it failed. It could have been a great railroad.
#3 West End Jeff
I read somewhere that the NYW&B's lack of a Manhattan terminus was the result of a business decision. When the line was being designed, the business hub of Manhattan was still in the process of moving from downtown to midtown. The NYW&B planners thought that with the passage of time, the business hub would keep moving north and eventually reach the Bronx. As such, they decided not to expend the money to extend their line into Manhattan but instead keep their terminal in the Bronx.
That plan failed because of City zoning laws passed in the 1920's limiting the amount of commercial building construction above 59th Street. This is why Manhattan above 59th Street is far more residential than it is below. Unfortunately for the NYW&B, that meant that their line was doomed, because people would have to continue into Midtown to go to work. This resulted in many more people taking the IRT and NY Central lines rather than the NYW&B, and the line ended up failing.
The irony is that even had the NYW&B extended their line into Manhattan, it would almost certainly have been an el because the NYW&B did not have the resources to build a subway line. That el line would most likely have been demolished by the City with the other els in the '30s and '40s, so even if they had built into Manhattan the line probably would have failed anyway.
Another irony is that after WWII, there was a flight to the suburbs, including Westchester County, and the NYW&B system could have been pretty handy as an alternative to the NY Central (today's Metro North).
I read somewhere that the NYW&B's lack of a Manhattan terminus was the result of a business decision. When the line was being designed, the business hub of Manhattan was still in the process of moving from downtown to midtown. The NYW&B planners thought that with the passage of time, the business hub would keep moving north and eventually reach the Bronx. As such, they decided not to expend the money to extend their line into Manhattan but instead keep their terminal in the Bronx.
My impression is that it was more a case of wishful thinking on the part of the planners. They didn't have the resources to build a Manhattan extension and terminal, and justified the line's stopping in the Bronx by telling themselves that the Bronx would eventually become a major business hub. Whether the planners really believed that, or were just trying to put a positive spin on a difficult situation, is probably unknowable today.
The whole NYW&B seems to be so overbuilt also. Maybe if they had spent less on the huge four track ROW and and all the elaborate stations, they may have had some more money to at least get into Manhattan. Although, unless it went to the West Side, a NYW&B on the East side would have been kind of redundant to the New York Central. At least if it terminated somewhere on the West Side, at least they would have had a West End edge, and the NYC would have had an East Side edge, so at least they would not have been competing on all fronts in Westchester and the East Side.
Two other stations to check out next time you are up that way are Morris Park (half in tunnel, half outside; mind the pigeons), and East 180th Street's station entrance is THE definitive NYW&B station building, with sculpted Mercury heads gracing the facade and a grand medallion logo.
wayne
I passed through that station on the way to Pelham Parkway. You're right, the pigeon dung on the covered part of the station was startling.
The station itself reminded me of the Sedgwick Avenue station on the old 9th Ave el/Polo Grounds shuttle route. That was also a hybrid inside/outside station.
I think we should go back to allow hunting/killing of pigeons. They are just flying rats IMHO.
I always love the squirrel comparision also. Basically they are just rats with furry tails. If they had skinny tails like rats, you wouldn't hear people in Madison Square Park, etc saying, "Oh look, how cute....."
Is that station that was converted to a private home still standing? that was a NYW&B station it's in one of the books on the NYW&B railway,are there any videos around of that line? i know there was a couple available awhile back. thanks.
>>Is that station that was converted to a private home still standing? that was a NYW&B station it's in one of the books on the NYW&B railway,are there any videos around of that line? i know there was a couple available awhile back. thanks.<<
It is still standing, the last I heard. That station building was the Quaker Ridge station. About ten years ago, I scouted the area for remaining traces of the NYW&B ROW. Went to that home and talked with the owner who said he was an artist from Manhattan. He didn't show me the inside, he must have had other railfans ring his doorbell.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is that station that was converted to a private home still standing? that was a NYW&B station it's in one of the books on the NYW&B railway,are there any videos around of that line? i know there was a couple available awhile back. thanks.
It is still standing, the last I heard. That station building was the Quaker Ridge station. About ten years ago, I scouted the area for remaining traces of the NYW&B ROW. Went to that home and talked with the owner who said he was an artist from Manhattan. He didn't show me the inside, he must have had other railfans ring his doorbell.
There's also a street in Scarsdale that's built on the former ROW. I can't remember it's name, but its alignment is very different from any of the other roads in the area.
>>There's also a street in Scarsdale that's built on the former ROW. I can't remember it's name, but its alignment is very different from any of the other roads in the area<<\
I can't think of the name...........*something* bypass. If you and I are thinking of the same road, it was on the ROW at the Heathcote station. Pics are in Roger Arcars book "Westchesters Forgotten Railway" on page 45.
Bill "Newkirk"
There's also a street in Scarsdale that's built on the former ROW. I can't remember it's name, but its alignment is very different from any of the other roads in the area
I can't think of the name...........*something* bypass. If you and I are thinking of the same road, it was on the ROW at the Heathcote station.
Now I recall, thanks to what you said. It's Heathcote Bypass.
Three posts, and I only clicked once (with DSL).
Hmmm, very interesting.
DSL is fast!!
Greetings,
I am looking for retailers, wholesalers, or drop-shippers of NYC model Subway Trains in service from 1970's to present.
I have access to many potential customers and would appreciate any information.
Thank You
Joseph Russ
Did you check out these links under the Transfer Station?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29542
Thought this might be amusing, too late of course for the eastern time zone, but polls are still open out west and therefore a meal suggestion ...
Tonight, the crew here celebrates the election with ROAST PORK (no explanation necessary), Stuffing (to represent the ballot boxes), potatoes (to represent the electorate), and squash (to represent the party lawyers waiting to pounce on the results), served with whine and raspberry fritters ... no Paturkey though. :)
You forgot the juice.... :o)
Bruno took it. :)
Ouch! LOL!
I guess I should be honored to have licked the boots of the privileged. Yowsah, missuh. :(
Here on the Left Coast, my plate is empty. Senator Dianne, along with Senator Hillary, decided that the best way to stop a war is to vote for it. Our governor, running against a dufus, is the very best that money can buy.
Chock full of nuts...nothing a millionaires money cant buy.
JUICE! JUICE! JUICE!!!
Would you like us to send out a plate of Paturkey with stuffing? :)
Ummm....Sounds tasty! ;)
The Juice is Here!!!!!!!!!!! I refused TWU -party lines...they wanted us to vote line G...Aaronowitz...Green Party....but Roger did NOT properly follow orders from his handlers in Moscow and never got the word out...the monies spent were not used to contact us and the TWU Boards decision was posted on closed internet . Paturkey wins so buy schedule 40 PVC pipe and lots of caps...bury everything.
Fortunately, I live outside of Albany. We ain't seen Paturkey in Albany (except when he darts in and out in the middle of the night on Air Cuomo for a photo op) so looks like status quo time continues. At least now that New York has PROVEN once again that a "candidate of color" has a better chance of getting elected in TEXAS, H Carl can drop by for a beer and some tunes without a contingent in tow. Sure hope he sticks around the neighborhood now that it's over. He's a GREAT guy ...
The rudderless ship of state chugs on ... moo.
"H Carl can drop by for a beer and some tunes without a contingent in tow. Sure hope he sticks around the neighborhood now that it's over. He's a GREAT guy ..."
And there in lies his problem, a intelligent, honest person with some integrity stand no chance against an oppurtunist like Paturkey. By the way, does anyone know Georgie Boy stands on any issue, aside from saying "Yes sir!" to Joe Bruno?
I'd imagine "What's good for East Greenbush is good enough for that big hole downtown, let's put up a Wal*Mart supercenter and a Cracker Barrel." :(
One of the advertising inserts in Sunday's paper was for an offer from Hawthorne Village in Illinois.
The item appears to be an HO model of a two unit engine and the first passenger car very elaborately decorated for the Philadelphia Eagles pro football team. The train is to be known as the Philadelphia Eagles Express. It appears to be an artist's rendering and not an actual photo. Additional cars are to be available every two months.
Is this just a one team deal, or are they offering trains painted for other football teams in other areas of the country?
Around here (Eatontown, New Jersey) it was an ad for the New York Giants train. It's a limited edition, too... limited to the number of suckers who sign up to buy it, plus another million or so for the bargain bins next year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It could be a Bachmann produced HO model, which does not gain value as it ages like Lionel.
It could be a Bachmann produced HO model, which does not gain value as it ages like Lionel.
Right... worthless to start with, less than worthless after a year :-)
(Back when I ran The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina we called them Barfman... with good reason!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yesterday while i was checking the video store near marcy ave,i herd
the wine sound of an R143,i saw it and it was going the willy-b,maybe
going to ci yard,do they sometimes do that?
til next time
They might have been heading to Piken Yard for the Test track testing on the Flats of Rockaway. They do this to every set that is getting ready for the 24 hour burn test on the L line.
Robert
Check out this movie. It is set in Chicago circa 1931. Tom Hanks drives over the Chicago River south on La Salle St. Up ahead an El train goes by.
Sure looks a 2400 series Green Line Train to me!!!
This subject was extensively examined on the message board www.northshoreline.com, the site for North Shore Line fans. This detail was overlooked, and there is a possibility that the "L" train will be digitally "repainted" in the orange/green Chicago Rapid Transit scheme of the thirties for the video/DVD release. I thought it interesting that the Wrigley Building was the site of the syndicate's (that's what we called it in Chicago) headquarters.
It's already been posted on Nitpickers.com, though not with much detail.
I didn't see it there. How do I find it??
Wrigley building in LIC...structure of disgrace. Magnesium Cearate was an integral component of 'Chiclets' and when improperly handled materiel ignited, at least four employees were burned to death. My commentary is that these motion pictures never acknowledge the losses...Wrigley was once a major corperation like Standard Oil or Coca-Cola...now just a name like Zenith. 'Calling Phillip Morris.'
my step cousin lived somewhat near this location when i first got there in the early 1960s !
what a shame it is gone ! man am i glad someone took this shot !
Doesn't Staples Center sit where the carbarn used to be?
Yea..........i think so .........
what a shame they allowed our PCCs to be taken away !!
mayor yorty !
>>> Doesn't Staples Center sit where the carbarn used to be? <<<
I think it is the Convention Center which was built on the old carbarn location.
Tom
a lot of people lost ther homes there for that place
terrible and a shame !
Hmmmm. A P-2 PCC running on the P line at such a late stage (the two-tone green scheme began to be applied when LAMTA took over in 1958). The P-3 all-electrics held down the fort exclusively on the P line from the time they were delivered until the last day of service, when some ran on the J line to facilitate the transfer to dead storage.
L. A.'s PCCs are the one reason I sometimes wish I'd grown up there. Chances are I would have remembered them.
It's a rush hour tripper pulling in. P-2's and P's were used as rush hour add-ins and trippers. P-3's were the P-Line's base service cars.
That's right. The P line always got the newest equipment because it had the highest ridership. I've read it was almost retained when streetcar service ended, but that would have meant keeping a lot of nonrevenue trackage open for yard moves.
The yards were only 1 block off the P Car, now where the Convention Center is
which line served pico ? especially where it crossed pico / western
i used to live on serrano avenue whent to hobart elementary school
back in early 1960 saw the holloywood hills fire remember that ?
& the wiltern building with that huge diamond clock revolving ! \
any body else out there remember those dayz ?.........!
which line served pico ? especially where it crossed pico / western
i used to live on serrano avenue went to hobart elementary school
back in early 1960 saw the holloywood hills fire remember that ?
& the wiltern building with that huge diamond clock revolving ! \
any body else out there remember those dayz ?.........!
The P line, IIRC.
I saw an LIRR M7 being tested today. I was in Hicksville and it was there waiting for a signal. When it took off it was quiet and really took off fast compared to a old M1.
Yeah the M1's accelerate so slow. Even the diesel sets can outpace them in acceleration.
I cant wait to ride the M7. Hopefully they will be better than BOMBardiers other product, the R142.
they are. i rode them already, and they FLY off! they make a DE30 cry!
they are. i rode them already, and they FLY off! they make a DE30 cry!
The DE30's make ME cry.
There running? What line??? WHen????
The M7's have been on the Flatbush to Long Beach run this week. I don't know where else.
Any way to find out when? I'm flying in for the weekend. Trying to find an R-143 shouldn't be hard, but I would love to catch an M-7 too.
Does anybody know the time the M-7 comes through Flatbush Branch? Because I live 2 blocks away from the Nostrand Ave. Station on the Branch and I would love to see the new units. Thanks!!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Why not just take a ride on the Long Beach train?
Because I don't have time to go all the way out there, when I can just walk two blocks and ride it there, or take a look at it.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
"Yeah the M1's accelerate so slow. Even the diesel sets can outpace them in acceleration. "
No, not really. The old diesels definitely not, and the DM30's, while good, are still not that good...
if they are in service already and haven't failed yet.... i think its obvious its not a hiccup;dud;lemon;bomb;fart;and all of your favorite bom-bashing verbs
I spoke to a friend of mine who is a LIRR engineer. He told me he attended classroom training a week or two ago. Today he hit the road this morning, operating the M-7's out of Long Beach to Flatbush Ave.
After Flatbush, the train layed up in VD (Vanderbilt) yard for some sort of adjustment. After that, he operated the M-7's to Hempstead (running light). After Hempstead, it was back to Jamaica. On board was a couple of LIRR motor instructors, but no one from Bombardier.
He liked the M-7's very much. Said they were quiet and fast. The acceleration from standing start blows the M-1/3's away. He said they accelerated like subway cars. Maybe he means R-142/143's. There are two computer screens that tell the engineer the status of the train. Yeah, just like the R-142/143.
Inside the full width cab, there is a drop down two seater opposite the engineers area for passenger seating when the cab door is closed in mid consist. Cab door will lock like the WMATA and SEPTA B-IV cars. so passengers can pass between cars.
He also told me more cars were delivered. These cars may make up the second train due to go into revenue service in December. Eventually, 20 cars per month will be phased in.
Some posters raised questions about less seating due to the size of the handicapped (ADA) lavatory. Eventually, when all M-7's are delivered, along with current M-3's, the LIRR fleet will number some 1000 cars, some 100 cars than today. That should take care of short changed seating on M-7's and the standee problem during peak hours.
As far as big things (new M-7 fleet) go, the next big thing on the LIRR is triple tracking the Port Jeff Branch between Floral Park and Hicksville. The new track should be south of the eastbound track. Expect Nassau tower to be a casualty, get your shots now. He also told me something wild, that Mineola may be an island platform. Probably like Hicksville or Babylon. This would make sense for terminating Oyster Bay trains. To make room, current eastbound station waiting building may be demolished or moved. This is not written in stone and subject to change. Ronkonkoma yard was expanded by a couple of tracks, also expect Port Wash, Long Beach and Babylon to accommodate a future expanded fleet.
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the Rockland County election results, with 3/4 of the precents in, the Proposition for the Palisades Mall to use extra empty space they built in the mall, has been voted down.
I guess it's one for the NIMBY's. Not suprised though, the mall doesn't do well. Malls always have midday shoppers. Palisades didn't.
Alot of empty space within the existing mall structure.
Maybe a direct EXPRESS bus from NYC would help. Well it couldn't hurt.
Does anyone know of sites that have NYC subway or LIRR downloads? I know there are such sites for BVE, but any such sites for MSTS downloads would be great.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I am interested in this as well. MSTS works great for me, but I can never get BVE to work...it always crashes for me.
Patrick,
I feel the same way about MSTS. It works fine for me, too. I purchased an Abacus add-on that advertised it had a Chicago el scenario. It turns out all it gave the track layout of a line with NO scenery or trains! I emailed Abacus to let them know it was not appreciated marketing such an incomplete scenario. Oh well, hope somebody answers us on this board.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Mistake Number One:
Purchasing the Abacus Train Sim Roundhouse Add-On.
Everything in that box is available FREE at http://www.train-sim.com
I heard that the 1, 2, 3, and 9 trains were having trouble this afternoon. What exactly happened?
- Lyle Goldman
Smoke condition at 96 Street.
I wonder if that was a track fire, or a fire in the garbage.
I remember before they started putting those garbage storage rooms around they sometimes would store bags of garbage under a stairway, or at the end of the platforms sometimes, station fires would be more common. I remember a fire under a stairway at the Myrtle (L) stations under a stairway. The flames completely burned all the paint off of one of the columns, and all of the paint off of the ceiling above. I obviously wasn't there when the fire was going on, but it seemed to be a pretty bad fire, especially for an underground station. All the tiles were sooty around the whole station, and had a horrible stench.
Luckily, now they have built those little rooms around many stations to store garbage in. Not only was it unsightly to throw bags of garbage in the corner, kids can't set them on fire anymore.
The way I heard it on Shadow Traffic, it was something with the train.
Doesn't the 1/2/3/9 have trouble every day?
(Actually, not anymore, IME. Local service used to be notoriously unreliable, but it seems to be pretty reliable most of the time now.)
That LOOP makes a difference. HAPPY to have it back! Seriously, though, the MAGIC of IRT locals was that on BOTH runs, then CONTINUE on through a pesky loop which means no "relaying" or "reversing ends" downtown, and THAT is what works. Of COURSE there are morons suggesting stub ends, but folks fail to remember that with IND headways, stub ends worked. Not so for da IRT. :)
Hallo? Is this thing ON? Heh.
No, it's not the loop. West Side IRT local service has been dreadfully unreliable for years. My first everyday experience on the 1/9 was in 1991, and it was unreliable then. It was unreliable before 9/11. It was still unreliable after 9/11, but the 2 ran local (usually), so problems on the 1 didn't necessarily yield a lack of service at local stations (except that the 2 actually ran express so often that service was completely unpredictable). Even though the schedule now is basically the same as it was before 9/11, something is being done very differently.
I wonder if some of my common sense ideas are being followed now. Like making adjustments north of 137 rather than south of 96. (I've pointed out before that 50, 66, 79, and 86 alone have more passengers than the entire line north of 137, yet trains bypass those stations all the time in a vain attempt to get up to the Bronx on time.)
There still seems to be some sort of strong resistance to running expresses on the local track to fill gaps. A few weeks ago there was a 30-minute gap in local service (which is supposed to have 5-minute gaps) at the tail end of rush hour, but an express zipped by every few minutes, and the S/A proudly informed us that "there's nothing wrong with the trains."
What the line could use now is simply more service, both rush hours and weekends. (Sundays the line is consistently SRO north of 42. How many other locals in residential areas are consistently SRO on weekends? I can't think of any.) The loop is great -- it's the north terminal that limits capacity. There are other potential north terminals (137 and Dyckman are the obvious ones, but trains could also switch to the express at 96 and run up Lenox to one of the terminals in that direction), but they haven't been regularly used on the 1 since 1989.
Before I got away from the #1 Line I notice they really don't skip any trains between 34 St and 96 any more. Even when I was running 8 Minutes late at Times Square with train behind me backed up to 14 Street I still made local stops. This was the peak hour of the PM Rush Hour. Anyway when I made it to 96 Street 12 Minutes late I got a super skip to 242 Street. The thing that killed my trip was crowds of people holding the doors between Wall St all the way to 59 Street.
Before 9/15, there was still lots of skipping between 34 and 96, especially on the 2.
It still happens on occasion (after that half-hour delay, the train stopped at 86 and 79 but not at 66 or 50), but I've been seeing a lot less of it than I used to see.
You skipped all the way from 96 to 242? Wow! With passengers?
The skip I had was 96,137,168, Dyckman, 242. to me thats a super skip.
Yeah, that's pretty super. IMO, 116 should have been substituted for Dyckman. Did you run up either middle track?
No, Stayed on the Local track. It funny anytime a skip is made the #1 always stops at Dyckman but the #9 Skips it.
Why is Dyckman considered so important? It's not a very busy station compared to others on the line.
It's the last station with free transfer to either uptown or downtown service before 242.
Interesting point. That makes it a somewhat useful stop on a southbound run (so people who didn't realize the train was bypassing their stops could backtrack), but coming from the south, I can't imagine a huge number of passengers who boarded at 168 for 181 or 191 who now have to backtrack.
Conversely, there's no free crossover at 137, so anyone trying to get to the very busy stations at 103, 110, 116, and 125 has to go all the way up to 168 to backtrack. (I was once on a train that was sent up the middle track from 96 to 137 with no prior warning to the passengers. Almost everyone got off at 137 and the S/A had to give out hundreds of block tickets.) Stop at 116 instead of Dyckman and most of them can get where they're going in a fraction of the time.
For the record: in 2000, Dyckman had 1,960,113 fare registrations, 137 had 4,003,597, 125 had 2,056,685, 116 had 4,127,702, 110 had 4,172,774, and 103 had 3,969,126. My question stands: why Dyckman?
Interesting, considering that 137 used to turn trains. (not that that really matters I guess, because under normal service, any passenger on a train that terminated at 137, but wasn't destined for 137, would be looking to go north, not back south).
Was there ever a crossunder at 137, and it was closed (similar to stations like 28th/Lex), or was there never one there to begin with.
I don't think there was ever a crossunder, but I'm not sure.
It probably is for the reason of allowing passengers to backtrack. While not many may have boarded at 168 for 181 and 191, that presupposes that all those who boarded earlier listened to announcements and noticed that other stations were being bypassed.
A second item worth considering is simply the TA mentality. To them, 137 and Dyckman are important stations because you can turn trains there. 168 is important because of the A/C transfer. To the guy giving orders from the tower, Dyckman is more important than 116.
CG
It probably is for the reason of allowing passengers to backtrack. While not many may have boarded at 168 for 181 and 191, that presupposes that all those who boarded earlier listened to announcements and noticed that other stations were being bypassed.
Let's look at the numbers. By stopping at Dyckman, 6,475,100 passengers (on an annual fare registration basis, in 2000) who either got on at 168 or didn't notice all the earlier bypassed stations and didn't hear the announcement are relieved from having to travel 42 additional blocks out of their way, where they can then either stay on the same train or cross the platform to return. By not stopping at 116, 12,269,602 passengers who didn't hear the announcement (the train was making all stops until 96, so there was no prior relevant experience) are forced to travel 52 additional blocks out of their way, and must then share the two narrow overpasses with the 7,149,513 passengers who missed 125, 145, and 157.
In addition, passengers at 168 bound for 181, 191, and Dyckman have the alternative option of the A train, which stops a few blocks away, if they don't want to wait for the next local. Passengers at 96 bound for 103, 110, 116, and 125 don't have any other options. (The M104 is slow and doesn't have room for more than a handful of additional subway passengers.)
A second item worth considering is simply the TA mentality. To them, 137 and Dyckman are important stations because you can turn trains there. 168 is important because of the A/C transfer. To the guy giving orders from the tower, Dyckman is more important than 116.
So what? It had already been decided that this train was not turning at 137 or at Dyckman. In fact, trains are almost never turned before 242. The skip-stop planners realize that Dyckman isn't a very important station, even though backtracking is a necessary part of riding skip-stop services for short distances.
Most of the time the skip that is given is 116,137,168,Dyk,231 and 242. Another reason to stop a Dyckman st. is that no other mass transit stops in that area unless you want to walk up to Broadway.
The distance from Dyckman on the 1 to Dyckman on the A is about half the distance from 110 on the 1 to 110 on the B/C -- and it's flatter, too.
Minutes late I got a super skip to 242 Street.
Wow, did the train run on one of the express track sections up there?
Of COURSE there are morons suggesting stub ends, but folks fail to remember that with IND headways, stub ends worked. Not so for da IRT.
I think the loop still serves it's purpose after all these years at turning trains fast. Of course it is not the ideal situation because it only allows for a half of train to platform there. I was actually called "clueless" here a few months back when I showed concern that a stub terminal at South Ferry could actually slow the line down, especially if poorly planned. It could actually be less efficient than the current terminal.
Of course the root of the problem could be the service itself, as was mentioned. Sure it sounds great, there are two locals on the 7th Ave-Broadway line. Yeah, in theory that's true, but the 9 is basically just another name for split 1 service. I think the 1/9 set-up would be much better if they got rid of the skip stop, and made the 9 a 1 again (or possibly keep the 9) but start them short at a station like 137, where they could turn them, and send them back downtown. This would increase local service on the line because even though they may have the same amount of trainsets allocated for the West Side local, the trainsets would not have to go all the way up to Van Cortlandt Park and return before getting to where the service is needed most.
Some might argue that it is not necessary because of the IND so close by, well with the park being on one side of CPW, I think the old IRT hits where people want to go better. And the few times I have found myself on CPW instead of the West Side line, the service seems to be even worse at those local stations! I avoid that line if at all possible. I've never had a short wait at any of those stations.
Bigger loops could serve bigger trains, but it WOULD appear that Gibbs HAD that clue that you apparently lack. :)
Hate to differ with "if *I* were king of the BMT, the Q train would go to East 180th, but you can't argue with reality. Unless you voted, of course, but that's another story. But normally I avoid these like the plague. When you're WITH the railroad, whatever they make you key onto is yours. Whenever, whatever. But it WOULD appear that "Ferry" has proven its design even IF not all cars platform. :)
There was also a third rail fire at 191. I understand service was hindered from 79th. 191 was bedlam, according to the PM S/A. Elevators went up to the street level and shut down, the station filled with smoke, FDNY had to call specialized unit. Even MVMs were out and two were fried.
I can account for the 191 incident. I was the one who called it in to Control.
Thanks! I was just going to post that I got an e-mail from someone,whose address I wont reveal, confirming there were two separate incidents-- 191 and 79th.
Adding to 191-- later that night I lost all lights except for booth lighting and emergency lights plus 1/2 of Northbound plat (as I found out later). Thankfully elevators did not stop and turnstiles still worked with no loss of information. It was determined to be vandalism-- an electrical box on the platform was broken into and breakers tampered with.
the person stated a train had to wrong rail back to 181 to discharge passengers due to low visibility at 191.
When I got off and went home, I saw the charred remains on the downtown plat. Wow!
To our tech people: How can a third rail catch fire and why cant regular FDNY put it out. I was told it kept reigniting.
"How can a third rail catch fire and why cant regular FDNY put it out."
I can answer the first part. The third rail doesn't burn. A spark ignites garbage that our less civic minded fellow citizens deposit everywhere for it to blow onto the tracks.
As for the second part, I do know FDNY is leary of high voltages. They do like the power off before they spray water.
America under the wet bedsheets has spoken, therefore I must ACCEPT it. But I'd like to leave one last thought before my political comments *END* ... and no, no REPLIES here either. Just a geezer saying, MARK MY WORDS ...
1. Move out of the top 50 cities ... you're going to die.
2. For those who voted who never did a history class, I leave the following ... I've posted this BEFORE ...
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the
public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury,
with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal
responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the
world's
great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to
spiritual
faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to
complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from
dependency back again to bondage."
What's next for the USA??
===
God help us all. MY last word for two more years on politics. Time to store grains. :(
An explanation I s'pose is in order here since "#1" in my previous post was a bit "drastic" standing alone ... I say this only because prior to "last night" there was a stalemate in our government which required "due deliberate process" that is now gone. We'll see a stiffening of political posture on the world platform as a result (duh) and this will bring about episodes of "petit terrorism" given the results of the right wing media's "Sniper! Sniper! Sniper!" dog and pony show that did NOT go unnoticed overseas. Trust me, a FEZ doesn't screw up your vision through a boresight ...
I also see UNIONS being disolved as a matter of "Homeland security," and a rash of other unhappy things. I *Knew* the numbers would twirl the way they did as a former journalist who understands "propaganda and presentation skills" along with a mood of the country that few understand. It was "played" like a 3 card monty game on 42 and 8.
But I see very difficult times ahead, since we've apparently just empowered the "American Taliban" ... that is MY fear. Suddenly, Iraq and Usama pale by comparison to what fundamentalist zealots can do, and we just punched their ticket. :(
OK, that's it ... enjoy the fanwindow, all is well. Selkirk say so.
'nough said, bro...
Sorry, soldier, but grain storage was for when we all lived on farms. Two totaly new things happened in the last hundred years: overpopulation; and we all moved into cities. With schools, and offices, and TRANSPORTATION. It BROKE THE CYCLE. Now instead of apathy we have NIGHT SCHOOL and COFFEE SHOPS and WEEKDAY MEETINGS and all the other things that come with GREAT CITIES and their WORKING TRANSIT SYSTEMS. As soon as people start moving back in from the suburbs, you'll see. It will change.
History is not going to repeat itself. And guess what? This is ON TOPIC.
Here's hoping ... seriously though, for the FIRST time, I'm worried. But I'll leave it there, my post was only for archival purposes as a a potential future "I told you so" ... I'm just a bit nervous about us slipping into that "from dependency back again to bondage" part. But don't mind me, election's over and politics is now justifiably off limits. I've made my comments prior as to how it would affect planes, trains and automobiles, seriously, I'm done, just wanted to offer my last prognostications since I hadn't expected such an EXTREME outcome.
The cities will be nothing but run down beehives for the underclass 99% of the population while the rich undertaxed larded upperclass will live in suburban gated communities and corporate farmworkers will live in rural poverty along with their overseers and police Federal tax cuts will cause trickle down deficits which will nake state and local governments bankrupt and subservient to the fatcat bankers. In a free market race to the bottom triggered by terroristic business threats to move jobs to third world countries, local governments will gut school systems and other essential services to pay more welfare to the rich and their businesses. The Dream of America will then be smashed. At this point all we can hope for is that somewhere in the world maybe someday Jeffersonian democracy will again take hold. R.I.P. USA.
And then, America voted. Sheesh. Sorry once again, when I awake, I will ignore this thread, but all I can say is wow ... WOW. Cheney uber alles ...
United States of America 1776-2002 Now comes the long IRREVERSIBLE decline. EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES. Goodbye to the once wonderful place called America.
In the interest of BALANCED REPORTING, Have you noticed since everyone has a camcorder these days no one talks about seeing UFOs like they use to. This is FOZZ NOOZE, fair, balanced, and reporting from onboard the mothership. :)
Sorry once again, when I awake, I will ignore this thread, but all I can say is wow ...
Hmmm. Too tempting wasn't it......
O O
.
Moo.
Let's try that AGAIN ...
O O
.
Moo.
Easy! Easy! I'm as mad as you are, but the past is never the future. People who think the easy life will go on forever (they built in the Roman suburbs, in the British countryside, in "fashionable" downtown NYC) always end up with big albatrosses on their hands. The larded upperclass will be taking in boarders when they get stuck with those mortgages in the real estate crash, and there ain't no Republican gonna save their asses when the currency deflates. What we yuppies renovating in scuzzy lower Westchester and crawling in on Metro North won't be paying rent, gas, or travel time, we can spend on schools instead, after we're REALLY fed up. We just have to hit bottom first before we really get it.
america is the new roman "empire" -a decline into global irrelevance
Comparatively. After the same mistakes as ours (expanding too far). But for a few hundred years they pulled back into their CITIES and were cultural arbiters. Irrelevant, yes, but still exporting that Broadway rhythm like no one else on Earth.
And year after year, the Republican's code demographic (whose who find themselves mesmorized by shiny objects) will elect them time and again.
There will bo NO MORE real elections, Dubya's judges and those worthless new hackable "voting" machines will see to that.
You aren't the first person to say history won't repeat. Sorry, but history ALWAYS repats itself. From the Sumarians to today, humans have NOT changed a single bit, no matter the circumstances. Think about it, every previous civilizations (ie, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Incas, and many more) were at the height of humanity, no one before acomplished as much as them, and now they are all gone. What makes you think that OUR height of humanity is different from the other ones?
In a few hundred years a new great civilization may arise, but NOT HERE
Definately a big night for Republicans across the board. Also the Clarkstown NIMBY's vote no on using the "attic" in Palisades center.
In all seriousness, you're %@$#%@ insane. America was delivered last night. All we can hope for now is that the Republicans don't blow it.
they willand then hack the voting machines. RIP USA
Has a republican government EVER delivered us from financial ruin? You might have to go back to the mid 19th century for that one. Heck, democrats have done it twice in the past 100 years, FDR and Clinton, definitely two of out best presidents.
NOW WHO'S GONNA JOIN ME IN RECARVING (or maybe just destroying) ALL THE DAMN REAGAN STATUES THAT THE ELEPHANTS STUCK UP! After that we can scrap the letters off the signs at National Airport. Next, we attack CVN76, we'll need some serious thinner to get the Reagan of the stern, I think it should be the USS United States, since that name keeps getting shot down. Finally we neeed to black mail the Secretary of the Navy, (or is it Chief Naval Operations), and get him to call the supposed "George Bush," CVN77, at the very least the Alan Shepard, I don't care if he was or wasn't a republican, but at least he accomplished something, much more than can be said for King BUSH I.
Heck, I'm already gonna go to the cell next to Lindh anyway, may as well have as many prohibited thoughts as possible on my way down!
Has a republican government EVER delivered us from financial ruin?
1981
You might have to go back to the mid 19th century for that one. Heck, democrats have done it twice in the past 100 years, FDR and Clinton, definitely two of out best presidents.
FDR did nothing to halt the depression. WWII did that. Clinton is the cause of every current non-9/11 related economic difficulty. The entire Clinton "boom" was a massive scam.
Chris, how dare you tell the truth about something so serious as that. You have completely burst Sour Grapes' balloon, along with those of his fellow liberal-socialist travelers. But keep in there pitching Chris because there's always hope for him.
1981? You're KIDDING, right? 1981 and the madness that followed CREATED the "National Debt Clock" ... and ... IT'S BACK! :)
Gee, I didn't get that impression while listening to the unbiased, moderate talk show hosts such as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, or Mike Savage!!!
If that's all you get on your radio, it's time to switch on the CD player!
-Robert King
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to
spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
What's next for the USA??
On that scale, I'd say where probably somewhere between apathy to dependency right now, and on the express train to bondage. Especially if mega-corporations and the fanatical Christian Right continue their unabated rise in power, which looks all but certain now.
Right now in my architectural history class, we're looking at Roman art and architecture. Of course, you can't do that without also looking at the history of the Roman empire. The similarities of the late Roman Empire to our own culture are more than a bit unsettling.
They basically got lazy, apathetic, and spoiled rotten, and they got overrun by the barbarians.... I can't help but wonder if 9/11 was merely the first incursion of the "barbarians" overrunning our own civilization. (The Romans were also likely brain dead from lead poisoning by then... Who the hell knows what we're being poisoned with today. The popularity of Fox News and reality TV would certainly seem to indicate some level of mass retardation.)
History may not repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I would hope that when we run out of money in Washington, and none is borrowed or printed and after possible de-monitization of the currency, the citizens of the nation will vote in a Libertarian Party majority.
That will bring back true freedom. Sink or swim freedom with charities and churches as the only safety net.
Yes, I had a weird dream involving my beloved Thunderbirds.
For starters, they were royal blue! No racing stripe scheme, no silver and blue, no dark green, just solid blue. Plus they were nice and quiet. No compressor or door sounds, nor were there any flat wheels. But the ultimate difference was these were model trains!> I guess my wish for R-10s in S gauge mainfested itself in this dream, which featured an 8-car train. It wasn't signed up as any particular train (go figure), and it darted along the track the way the real R-10s used to. Alas, there was no 81st St. station for them to rip past.
FWIW, I had another dream last night in which I was headed out to Shea Stadium aka the Toilet Bowl to see the Mets and got 7 express trains both before and after the game. Both trains were R-36s in their original teal and blue finish.
Ain't TOUCHING that one. But pass it over here just the same. :)
Moo.
From the Connecticut Post http://www.connpost.com/Stories/0,1413,96%257E3750%257E973595,00.html
Authorities awaiting ID of teen hit by train
Teen hit, killed by train in Orange Victim likely boy, 15, mom reported missing
By GREG SHULAS
ORANGE - A teenager was struck and killed by a Metro-North train Tuesday morning near the town's border with Milford, spreading shock through the neighborhood and disrupting commuter rail service to Waterbury.
The male victim is believed to be an Orange teenager, whose mother had reported him missing, police said.
Authorities were not releasing the boy's name until the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner examined the body and made a positive identification.
"There is a parent in the neighborhood who said his kid is missing," said Assistant Police Chief Mark Greco.
The mother's description of the youth and the body's characteristics match, police said, although a positive identification had not been made.
The teenager was struck around 10:45 a.m. on a northbound stretch of Metro-North Railroad tracks paralleling Aspen Lane, near the Great River Golf Club in Milford.
While victim remained unidentified, fears spread among neighborhood parents who worried their child might have been the one hit by the train. Groups of parents gathered outside their homes near the scene, consoling each other.
As news of the tragedy spread through town, parents' fears were amplified because school was closed for Election Day on Tuesday, and they were unable to immediately account for the whereabouts of their children.
Many children who ordinarily would have been in school in the morning were outside playing and may have wandered onto the tracks.
"I think it is a tragedy. I really do," said Orange resident Lyn Mucciacciaro.
The conductor told police he saw a person on the tracks ahead of the train and sounded the horn, but was not able to stop before striking the pedestrian.
Greco said that an undamaged bicycle was found several hundred yards away from the accident scene. Investigators are not certain if the youth was holding or riding the bicycle at the time he was struck.
Young people use the area surrounding the tracks as a place to ride motor bikes, and to collect golf balls from the Great River Golf Club, neighborhood residents said.
"The kids usually ride their dirt bikes in the area," said James "Skip" Thomas.
A neighborhood resident for 17 years, Thomas can't recall a fatal train accident in the area.
Fearing incidents like Tuesday's, Diane Kissel said she tells her two children stay away from the tracks.
"We always tell the kids that they are forbidden to go near there," said Kissel. "All the kids know each other."
New York-based investigators from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which oversees Metro-North, and the Orange Police Department descended on the accident scene, where a white sheet was placed over the victim's body.
A football field-sized area, abutting several suburban back yards, was sealed off with yellow police tape, as investigators looked for clues.
The train had departed from Bridgeport at 10:30 a.m. and was scheduled to arrive at Waterbury at 11:25, said Marjorie Anders, spokeswoman for Metro-North.
"The matter is under investigation," Anders said, declining to comment further.
The accident disrupted service on the Bridgeport-Waterbury rail line for several hours, although the busier Metro-North line between New Haven and New York was not affected, she said.
At the time of the incident, about 15 people were on the Waterbury-bound shuttle train, which consisted of two cars and an engine, Anders said.
Around 12:30 p.m., officials assisted passengers off the train and across the tracks, leading them up a hill and onto a residential property.
They were then sent up the property's steep driveway to Aspen Lane, where a bus was waiting to transport them the rest of the way.
Passenger Herman Figueroa of Danbury said he heard a bump and then the train stopped suddenly. He said that the delay caused him to be late for work in Waterbury.
"The only thing that happened was that the train started to stop," said another passenger, who declined to give his name. "You could smell the heavy burning from the train trying to stop. There was a lot of friction."
The conductor told police he saw a person on the tracks ahead of the train and sounded the horn, but was not able to stop before striking the pedestrian.
It's a tragedy.
Once again notice that it's the conductor operating the train and/or blowing the horn. Will reporters ever learn?
Yeah, such a tragic. My prayers go out to the victims families.
Can anyone identify the location of this image?
The caption reads "16th Ave Junction - Brooklyn, N.Y." , and I believe the building on the left says Kennsington.
It's dated 1910
-Larry
Maybe where the Sea Beach and the LIRR Bay Ridge BRanch met?
I was thinking it might be where the LIRR Bayridge Branch met the Culver?
I was thinking it might be where the LIRR Bayridge Branch met the Culver?
I think that may be Parkville Junction where Culver meets Bay Ridge, and that is further east than 16 Ave. Although Bay Ridge and Sea Beach don't really cross at 16th Ave, but they run near each other at that point. But they actually seperate from each other around 15th Ave, but that is currently, I don't know if they were moved a bit with the grade seperation projects.
The picture depicts the point where the SBK tracks met with the McDonald Ave. trolley Line (late Culver Line) tracks.
>>>"the SBK tracks met with the McDonald Ave. trolley Line"<<<
All the references in this tread as to the location, refer to
its current name McDonald Avenue. What year did Gravesend Avenue
change to McDonald Avenue? While where at it, when did 10th Ave.
become Prospect Park West?
IIRC, the 50 McDonald Avenue, was instituted after the line was
split from the 69 Vanderbilt, as the line was the 69 Vanberbilt/
McDonald. Also it was the last line served by the venerable
8000s of the B&QT fleet. [IMO the quintessential Brooklyn Streetcar]
Tripper service to Avenue I, till 1954, since there was no turning loop at that location.
Also 8361, the last car to operate this service is preserved at TMNY in Kingston, N.Y.
Also the Church Avenue cars going to 16th Avenue were designated
Church/Gravesend to differentiate from regular Church Avenue cars
going to Brooklyn's South Ferry.
;-) Sparky
All the references in this tread as to the location, refer to
its current name McDonald Avenue. What year did Gravesend Avenue
change to McDonald Avenue?
Both the question of who and when re: McDonald were covered within the last year here but I forget who posted it.
Anyway, IIRC, the name change was during the 1930s. McDonald may have been a nice guy but he didn't loom large in the area's history. So the name of the main road of one of Kings County's oldest communities (and the only English patent) disappears to honor someone who everyone's forgotten anyway.
Also the Church Avenue cars going to 16th Avenue were designated
Church/Gravesend to differentiate from regular Church Avenue cars
going to Brooklyn's South Ferry.
At the end both branches were 35-Church Avenue Line and no differentiaton was made between them. Same cars, same transfers but alternate cars went to each destination. With bustitution, the former 16th Avenue runs ended at Church & McDonald.
Earlier (pre-1949, IIRC) they were separate lines, separately numbered, 8-Church and 13-Gravesend/Church. And before that, they were routes of different component companies, which probably is the basis of the later separation.
Thanks Paul,
>>>"At the end both branches were 35-Church Avenue Line and no differentiaton was made between them. Same cars, same transfers but alternate cars went to each destination. With bustitution, the former 16th Avenue runs ended at Church & McDonald."<<<
Yes, that was with the PCCs, the only streetcars to use a route
number in Brooklyn. Also IIRC, coming to 35-Church Avenue line
in 1951, when the 6000s were scrapped. Most of Brooklyns Streetcar
Lines had route designated numbers under B&QT, but when rubberized
did not use same number designation. Branford's 1001, has a
complete route curtain for all Brooklyn Car Lines, where looping
was possible.
Also IIRC the McDonald segment of McDonald-Vanderbilt which became
the 50 McDonald Avenue was served by the 8000s, without a route sign,
using the white cardboard designators as buses till the arrival of
the PCCs in 1951. Also not sure, if the route sign was added to the
rush hour trippers that served till 1954.
;-) Sparky
Thanks for the additional details.
Yes, that was with the PCCs, the only streetcars to use a route
number in Brooklyn. Also IIRC, coming to 35-Church Avenue line
in 1951, when the 6000s were scrapped.
I don't have a clear memory of any Brooklyn trolleys but the PCCs, though I remember riding Flatbush to Parkes Cadman a number of times, and a few runs to "Avenue U"--maybe once to 71st-Island, but am not sure. So those Flatbush runs must have been 6000s, but I cannot conjure any image of the cars in my mind--I was 5 when Flatbush quit.
The quick demise of Brooklyn streetcars was the subject of quite a bit of negative conversation among (non-railfan) adults at the time, but that was before public hearings, so all they could do was mutter in their clams and beer.
I recall my dad was particularly cranked when they took the cars off the Rogers Avenue Line (that is, Ocean Avenue). I must have ridden that line with my parents to go to Lundy's or Tappen's, but have no memory whatsoever. I still remember the tracks in the middle of Ocean Avenue, turning at Farragut.
Most of Brooklyns Streetcar Lines had route designated numbers under B&QT, but when rubberized did not use same number designation. Branford's 1001, has a complete route curtain for all Brooklyn Car Lines, where looping was possible.
I wonder where they got that curtain. AFAIK all or almost all of the PCCs only had 35-Church, 50-McDonald and 68-Coney Island at the end. I once got to roll a trackless trolley curtain--it showed the lines that "might have been" even under the BofT, including 53-Metropolitan and 59-Grand.
Also IIRC the McDonald segment of McDonald-Vanderbilt which became
the 50 McDonald Avenue was served by the 8000s, without a route sign,
using the white cardboard designators as buses till the arrival of
the PCCs in 1951. Also not sure, if the route sign was added to the
rush hour trippers that served till 1954.
The TA was supposed to have 10 or 20 8000s onthe roster right to the end, but I don't recall ever seeing one in service. I imagine they didn't get out much after they ended the 50 trippers, and certainly they didn't need them after Coney Island was converted in 1955.
The rapid destruction of the Brooklyn trolleys was a crime. I remember railfans complaining that some track wsa newly rebuilt not long before abandonment. And they spent a fortune on replacement buses. Then as now, the City has come up with money for the wrong things.
I don't remember the years, but the 8000s were used on McDonald to substitute for the PCCs while the street underneath VanSiclen station was being rebuilt and paved; the Surf Avenue trolley, which shared the tracks with McDonald there, was discontinued permanently at the same time.
The double-ended cars were necessary because there wasn't a loop before Coney Island, so Avenue X was the southern terminal.
PCCs were back on McDonald before November of 1951 (which is when our family moved from West 2nd Street to Bay Ridge).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Thanks Ed,
That puts the use of 8000s on McDonald Avenue that I remember in the correct time slot. I was a meager youngster of 9 or 10 years.
But I had this thing for Trolleys.
;-) Sparky
>>>"Thanks for the additional details."<<<
You are quite welcome, it's neat to compare memories of what was.
JS:>>>"Yes, that was with the PCCs, the only streetcars to use a route number in Brooklyn. Also IIRC, coming to 35-Church Avenue line
in 1951, when the 6000s were scrapped."<<<
P.M.>>>"I don't have a clear memory of any Brooklyn trolleys but the PCCs, though I remember riding Flatbush to Parkes Cadman a number of times, and a few runs to "Avenue U"--maybe once to 71st-Island, but am not sure. So those Flatbush runs must have been 6000s, but I cannot conjure any image of the cars in my mind--I was 5 when Flatbush quit."<<<
Yes, the ride on Flatbush, would have been on a 6000. They were
single ended Peter Witt type cars built in 2 lots in 1930 & 31.
They were also the last cars to operate in my "hood" on the
Crosstown Line. None were saved. And maybe because they served my
"hood" along with the 3000 ETBs, they are my favorite Brooklyn Car.
Can't remember them too well, it's just something. I was 11, when
they was scrapped.
P.M.>>>"I recall my dad was particularly cranked when they took the cars off the Rogers Avenue Line (that is, Ocean Avenue). I must have ridden that line with my parents to go to Lundy's or Tappen's, but have no memory whatsoever. I still remember the tracks in the middle of Ocean Avenue, turning at Farragut."<<<
The cars serving the Ocean Avenue Line were the 8000 Speed Cars
[don't know, why designated so, maybe someone else will chime in]
of which 8111 is preserved at Branford. They operated out of
Canarsie Car House. Also, if I'm correct Brookdale Hospital sits
on the acreage of the Canarsie Car House.
J.S.>>>"Most of Brooklyns Streetcar Lines had route designated numbers under B&QT, but when rubberized did not use same number designation. Branford's 1001, has a complete route curtain for all Brooklyn Car Lines, where looping was possible."<<<
P.M.>>>"I wonder where they got that curtain. AFAIK all or almost all of the PCCs only had 35-Church, 50-McDonald and 68-Coney Island at the end."<<<
The line curtain that's in 1001, I haven't the fogiest. COULD BE
an original that was on the cars, when built in 1936. The assigned
route numbers have to be Pre WWII. Two that come to mind OTOH are
on 1001 - 29 Court Street [29 was designation for Meeker~Marcy Bus]
and 72 Smith Street, 68 IIRC correctly reads Smith~Coney Island
[72 became the designation of the only Brooklyn Bus Route that
operated strictly in Queens, Junction Boulevard, before the sale
or transfer of the line to Triboro Coach, where it now operates
as the Q72 as far South a Queens Boulevard].
Also the destination curtain on 1001 front and the side signs are only for the three remaining Brooklyn routes. That's why I posed the question in another tread, when did 10th Avenue become Prospect Park West. The paste over off PPW & 20th Street over 20th Street &
10th Ave. is apparent on the side curtain of 1001.
P.M.>>>"I once got to roll a trackless trolley curtain--it showed the lines that "might have been" even under the BofT, including 53-Metropolitan and 59-Grand."<<<
Two other "might have been" from the ETBs, were 58 Corona Avenue
and 72 Junction Boulevard. Also another oddity of the 1001 Route
Curtain, Grand Street is not included with any route number. Even
though it required double ended cars for service to Broadway and
Marcy Avenue, it could have been shortened two blocks and looped
on Brodway between Bedford and Driggs Aves. Other end of line
was Maspeth Depot, where the Flushing Avenue 6000s did loop .
J.S.>>>"Also IIRC the McDonald segment of McDonald-Vanderbilt which became the 50 McDonald Avenue was served by the 8000s, without a route sign, using the white cardboard designators as buses till the arrival of the PCCs in 1951. Also not sure, if the route sign was added to the rush hour trippers that served till 1954."<<<
P.M.>>>"The TA was supposed to have 10 or 20 8000s on the roster right to the end, but I don't recall ever seeing one in service. I imagine they didn't get out much after they ended the 50 trippers, and certainly they didn't need them after Coney Island was converted in 1955."<<<
My understanding is the 8000s operated tripper service till
1954, when the IND "captured" the Culver Line from the BMT. >G<
P.M.>>>"The rapid destruction of the Brooklyn trolleys was a crime. I remember railfans complaining that some track was newly rebuilt not long before abandonment. And they spent a fortune on replacement buses. Then as now, the City has come up with money for the wrong things."<<<
Well, from what I been told over the years, Flatbush Avenue trackage
was renewed and operators trained on PCCs, which never came to
the Flatbush Car House.
Also look at the Crosstown Depot, post 1948, which was a new storage and maintenance facility built for the ETBs and the 6000s serving the Crosstown Line. The service pit and trackage are still in the building, even though it now serves RT, System Response.
Also in this section of Brooklyn, the tracks on Nassau Avenue, were removed after busification in 1949 or 1950. Nassau Avenue tracks were newly installed, after 1945 when the Franlin Avenue line was abandoned along with the Nassau Avenue line and the Lorimer Street cars rerouted and IIRC cut back to Prospect Park at Empire Blvd.
from Park Circle.
Pardon, the ranting but you got me started on "Brooklyn Trolleys",
something I have to restrain myself from, when I'm the docent at
Branford and commenting about BRT Car 1792 and it relationship to
the then "Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers".
To those that have read this far, thanks
I may not have all the facts, but I enjoy commenting about the
Brooklyn Trolleys.
;-) Sparky
Pardon, the ranting but you got me started on "Brooklyn Trolleys",
something I have to restrain myself from, when I'm the docent at
Branford and commenting about BRT Car 1792 and it relationship to
the then "Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers".
To those that have read this far, thanks
I may not have all the facts, but I enjoy commenting about the
Brooklyn Trolleys.
Hey, I love it! I'm saving the entire thread for future reference.
And I'm sure one or two younger people are reading this avidly. Such as one whose handle initials are A.P. ;-)
Paul,
A belated thanks for your commentary.
Lots of reading this week on the board.
Still trying to catch up.
;-) Sparky
Lots of reading this week on the board.
Still trying to catch up.
Yeah, this week had so much interesting stuff on the board. I have been spending too much time here trying to catch up, in fact it's 20 after 8, I better jump in the shower, or I'll be late for work.
While where at it, when did 10th Ave. become Prospect Park West?
Never. 9th Avenue is Prospect Park West.
The answer is sometime in the 1890s.
Thanks AP,
Now I understand. I questioned same because the destination sign
on 1001 is obvious that PPW & 20th St. was pasted over
20th St. & 10th Ave. In my mind, I conjured a street change
name. Never thinking they moved the "Last Stop" from 10th to
9th Avenue. Well, it was on a "Trolley" Line, not as easy to
do as a "Bus" Line. >G<
;-) Sparky
If I am not mistaken That is what is currently Mcdonald ave and Ave C
Thats where the 23 trolley to Flatbush met the Culver Local.
23 trolley is currently the B23 bus.
That would make sence, then that would be the Parkville Station.
McDonald Ave and Ave C is much further north than Parkville Station. Parkville was around McDonald and Foster between Avenues H and I.
If I remember my history, Once upon a time around McDonald and Ditmas there was a split on the Culver line. One route went along 37 and 38 Streets toward the water. The route of the current ROW of the old BMT Culver Shuttle. The other route continued along McDonald Ave. Along the east side of Greenwood Cemetery and I forget at the moment where that route went.
I think that area is known as Kensington. Which might explain the station sign. And McDonald Ave does meet 16 Avenue in that same area.
When did the BRT take over the Culver route?
I believe you are on the right track.
The Avenue C trolley (never known as 23) only went as far as Coney Island Avenue, IIRC.
The caption and location suggest that you are looking northwest at the junction on the Culver Line between its old route to 20th St. and Greenwood Cemetery and its "new" route to the 5th Avenue L (curving left in this picture).
This is analagous (up in the air) to the Culver Shuttle going left and the current F train continuing straight ahead.
This junction survived to the end of trolley operation, November 1, 1956, when the South Brooklyn freights went around the curve to the left and 50-McDOnald and 35-Church trolleys continued straight ahead. There was a trolley loop over your left shoulder in the picture known as the 16th Avenue Loop.
Paul Matus is right.
In its heyday, Gravesend Avenue was a busy place, with trolleys from Prospect Park, L trains from 5th Avenue, and South Brooklyn freight all moving along on the same tracks from this point to Coney Island (Culver Terminal, later West Fifth Street trolley terminal). Even in the 1940s and 1950s, you could see freights mixed in with PCC cars. Nice picture.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I'd assume that it's the 16th Ave Junction as written on the photo. Also, this is consistent with the location of the Kensington station on the Culver. Looking north, it's where the Culver branched to its two northern terminals. The branch turning to the left in the picture, eventually went to the 39th St Ferry. The branch continuing straight was the original alignment of the Prospect Park & Coney Island RR and went to the depot at 20th St and 9th Ave (Prospect Park West).
I wonder if the PP&CI RR had their yard around 20 St and 9 Ave? It doesn't make sense to have a terminal there without a rail link to service coming from Manhattan.
The last Brooklyn car house was at 20th Street and 9th Avenue.
Is it the Bishop Ford High School site?
Yes, that's the location.
;-) Sparky
Ah, I see you answered the question before I did. I didn't read your post before I posted.
That would be 'Kensington Junction' which was Mickey D Ave. and Dahill Rd....
(Former SBK territory to the layman. ;)
Well thanks for the info everyone. :-)
That's where I thought this location was, just wanted to confirm it.
-Larry
How totally different southern Brooklyn looked, not that long ago...
Yes, looks like farm country. My grandfather passed away in '93, but he remembered coming to Brooklyn, from the Lower East Side on gate cars across the Brooklyn Bridge, and on surface on Gravesend Avenue, getting off at Washington Cemetary on low level wooden platforms.
Wow! I would have loved to have taken that ride.
Larry,
In 2003, we will try and recreate pastoral Brooklyn on the Connecticut
Shore at the "Shore Line Transit Museum" for the Gathering of
SubTalkers on Sunday, March 30. Weather permitting, it will be
a Brooklyn Gate Car, 1227 paired with the oldest rapid transit car
in existence, Manhattan Car 41. Service from Avenue L to Short
Beach on the oldest operating suburban trolley line. You'll come.
;-) Sparky
Hey that would be great.
I have the date marked on my calandar!
-Larry
The subway totally transformed it. I have seen pictures of Woodhaven and Ozone Park prior to the Jamaica and Liberty Ave. els going up. Looked like the middle of Iowa. Northeastern Queens was similiarly unpopulated before the IND opened.
Very True, and it is also true for the Bronx els, and the Flushing line also. They were built basically through what looked like rural areas! Even upper Manhattan was sort of rural and farmland about a 100 years ago!
The postcard said 16 Avenue. When you mentioned Culver and pointed out the station sign, it was easy.
5 Americans, all from the same family among the dead. STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
My gut reaction: If they're going to allow smoking, they ought to install battery-operated smoke detectors. The cost of their installation woould not have much effect on ticket prices...
Of course, I haven't looked at statistics about train fires here or in Europe. I don't know what the probability is of dying in a fire aboard a train on the SNCF system.
You have a good point.
Peace,
ANDEE
The conductor told police he saw a person on the tracks ahead of the train and sounded the horn, but was not able to stop before striking the pedestrian.
It's a tragedy.
Once again notice that it's the conductor operating the train and/or blowing the horn. Will reporters ever learn?
Yeah, such a tragic. My prayers go out to the victims families.
Today, I was riding the F towards Manhattan and between Ditmas Av and Church and on the MB express track was a 8 car train of R68A's with N train destinations parked on that track! Also, I saw workers with the orange vests inside. I only saw 1 set of numbers though. Car #'s 5116-5115-5113-5114-high 5000's. What was this doing here?!
Funny, that was the same set of cars, with 5043-5046, I think, hooked to 5113-5116 that was used for a movie at the Church Avenue Culver Station, and the signs had A on them...I have pics, if you want to see them...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
carlwal@hotmail.com
From Railpace:
SW-1001, 102 and 104 are not smi-permanently coupled as previouly reported; they are connected via knuckle couplers nose to nose, with M-1 tyoe couplers at their cab ends.
SW1001 100 has speed control. The Dutch Kills Drawbridge is speed control equipped, thus anything workni garound Long Island City requires it.
MP-15ACs 167 and 172 were recently returned to srvice after being out of service for quite a while. One of them may be going to New York & Atlantic. No. 167 was being repainted into a competley new schemme black roofs and pilots, yellow ends and gray body with a blue stripe the same width as the current scheme.
DE/DM 411 and 522 were returned to service in September after receiving taps transformers and phase modules for the HEP system. 421 has been sitting in the yard at Morris Park, lng out of service. 503 is a $5 million parts car and is completely stripped. 506 is actually bein gfixed in the Richmond Hill backshop, albeit very slowly. 518 is reported still at Super Steel. 521 has been parked on the Moris Park transfer table for several weeks. The taps transformers are failing and the LIRR does not have the parts to fix them.
401 was fowarded to CP at Fresh Pond and sent to Juniata to be the first unit cycled through NS' repair and rebuilding program.
GE 25 Tonners 397 has been reveiving parts from 398. 397 actually has a bad gearbox and there is only one traction motor and a chain connect the two axles. 398 hasd been smoking excessivley for a few months and had set brush fires when used to pull C3 cars into the wheel truer. Rumor is the LIRR is looking for replacement for the smallest members of its fleet.
>>503 is a $5 million parts car and is completely stripped.<<
#503 cannot be sent to Juniata for rebuild ?
Total loss ?
Bill "Newkirk"
From reading the blurb, yup total loss.
Why is the car a total loss?
I checked the transit museum page on the MTA's website, and all it says is that it is re-opening sometime in 2003. Originally, I had heard January 2003. Anyone know if there have been delays, and if so, when the museum will be open again? I'd love to attend the re-opening celebration. -Nick
The exact date has not been made public.
I have heard that it will open sometime in the Spring of 2003.
Don't worry - as soon as one of us in here finds out about a definite date it will get posted here.
I'm sure the reopening date will be mentioned here hundreds of times once it is announced. Don't worry, you will know about it if you come here once in a while, and we'll all be there at the reopening.
Sounds good! :-) -Nick
Yesterday was the last day of the elevated exhibit at the Grand Central store ... missed it :-(
Too bad, it was a really good exhibit. I wonder what they are going to do next there.
I'm sure it will be something interesting. Also as a footnote,
the builder of the models exibited, Dr. George Rahilly passed on
to the ultimate "Transit Museum In The Sky" this year, let's
remember his contributions in our prayers.
May He Rest In Peace,
Sparky
Somewhere in the back of my mind is a disucussion that we had some time ago about the use of the Multis on the #4 Sea Breeze Line. I just came accross a reference that the Multis were tested on the Sea Breeze Line on July 20,1936.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Wasn't the Sea Breeze Express tracks the equivalent to todays
test track on the Rockaway Line for 'B' division or the
center track[s] under Esplanade in the Bronx for the 'A' division.
;-) Sparky
Yes. They are still used for testing purposes today.
Every R type prior to the R143 was tested there. I remember new R68's there in 1986.
Sea Breeze?
The Sea Beach express tracks were frequently used for testing back to BMT days, but originally had a broader purpose.
Those Sea Beach Express Tracks.
What do people believe the effect of the election result will be on:
1) AMTRAK.
2) FTA funding for New York.
3) Major subway investments.
My assumptions:
The federal government will seek to cut transportation funding, while retaining road spending and transit subsidies in states where Republicans predominate. That means:
1) Shutting down AMTRAK, and forcing Northeastern states to maintain the Northeast Corridor.
2) Cutting rail transit subsidies of all kinds, but maintaining bus subsidies with a per capita cap on any one area (the more transit you have, the less you get).
3) Not increasing the Northeast's share of road funding to make up the losses.
Yes, I believe the effects of this election are primarily regional and generational redistribution, with those under 50, living in cities, and living in the Northeast once again on the losing end.
I'd say that sounds about right. :o(
Shrub's friend Dick Davidson (whose UP originally wrote the Amtrak enabling legislation) will get those pesky Amtrak trains out of the way of his gridlocked by incompetence RR.
FTA money will only go to "net gain" (universally Republican) states.
Hey Dave, ask Jersey to share his sour grapes with you. I think the Frisco fog has gotten to you somewhat. Maybe I can convert you to my party. After all I belonged to the other one before I got a few brains and a lighter wallet.
How can shifting the tax burden to the wealthiest %5 of the population give you a lighter wallet? Do you just happen to be one of these lucky few or are you just stupid.
Congress passed a resoulution in 1948 declaring that the purpose of the income tax was to provide a more equitable distrabition of income. In fact this is the whole reason we have a progressive income tax in the first place. Those least able to pay should bear the least burden. Republicans support the bussiness cycle and the concentration of wealth with in the hands of a very few. There comes a point when the Loernz curve is shifted so far over that the 80% or so with only %5 of the wealth realize that they can work a firearm just as well as the other 20% and you have something call a bloody revolution. The Republican phlisophy is inheriantly unsustainable unless their goal it to at some point take all their wealth and build a giant dome seperate from the rest of the world and the problems they have caused it.
You ever heard of a program involving matching funds? That's where the federal govt passes a good intentioned law that states should share in so everyone is helped. Only it doesn't happen that way. What happens is that someone has to pay for it and the rich don't because they have smart corporation lawyers to get them great writeoffs. And the poor don't pay for it because they have nothing to pay with. So it is the middle class that gets hit in the shorts. All those job training and welfare programs of the 60's? Close to a humdred billion spent, large tax increases, and the result is that many people who those programs were designed to help are worse off today than before------broken homes, fatherless families, etc, etc.
I see, and the way to fix all of that is to lower taxes for the rich and declare war on Iraq and Drugs.
Question: If those with the majority of the wealth don't pay for all these wars, who will? (answer for both lives and dollars)
BTW, back in the 1960's (and 50's before that) the income tax (which reached as high as 90% so at 39% nobody has any right to complain) largely went to pay for fighting the cold war (Vietnam and the space race included). So if you want to know where most of the tax dollars of those day went head down to your nearest navel reserve basin.
Vietnam? Well that rings a bell Sour Grapes. Does John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson also ring a bell? They got into that fucking war which bled our young and our treasury dry. Your kind of people, not mine.
Eisenhower set up the mechanics of SEATO, merely mentioned in the interest of historical fact. The "advisors" were sent in by Ike and Tricky ...
I'm not naming any names here. It was Trueman who refused to listen to Ho Chi Mein in 1945, it was Esienhower who support the French (of all people to support in a WAR) in the 1950's and it was Johnson's lack of forgien affairs skill that led to the Vietnam debaccle.
But that is beside the point. The Cold WAR is what feuled the inasne tax levels between 1950 and 1980, not Welfare. In the 1980's we just charged the Cold War to our credit card, a banalce that has yet to be paid off.
And because of Reagan who helped bring down the Soviet Empire we won the Cold War.
They're going to SHAFT those OVER 50 as well. Byebye Amtrak (Senator fall down and go boom), byebye new subways (only used by the great unwashed, that money can go to a Limousine tax cut) ... anyone who was around for the 70's and the 80's knows the score ... here we go again.
The federal government will seek to cut transportation funding, while retaining road spending and transit subsidies in states where Republicans predominate. That means:
1) Shutting down AMTRAK, and forcing Northeastern states to maintain the Northeast Corridor.
2) Cutting rail transit subsidies of all kinds, but maintaining bus subsidies with a per capita cap on any one area (the more transit you have, the less you get).
3) Not increasing the Northeast's share of road funding to make up the losses.
As I've noted elsewhere, predominately Republican states have taken the initiative in developing light rail. Consider the successful new system in uber-Republican Utah as a prime example.
It is misleading to think that Republicans are viscerally anti-transit. Republicans are by and large pro-business, and the fact remains that good transit is increasingly important to business in many cities. If there's an anti-transit contingent in the GOP, it's mainly among small-town and rural voters, especially in Sunbelt states. But people like that no longer dominate the party and their influence is surely much less than that of the pro-business (and therefore frequently pro-transit) contingent.
Which is not to say that a Republican Congress is going to be handing a blank check to transit operators. Heavily unionized systems that function more as social services may not be looked upon too well. As for the effects on the New York subway, it's hard to tell. The system is unionized, of course, and it goes without saying that Republicans are few and far between in the Big Apple. On the other hand, most Republican congressmen realize that New York is important to the nation's business, and that the city can't function without adequate transit. I would imagine that federal funding levels for NYC will remain pretty much the same.
I don't know much about Amtrak and venture no opinion.
Actually, New York City will be in big trouble, but not for THAT reason. There's already chatter of federal demand for any corporation in New York City to move at least HALF their employees at least 300 miles away from the city for "national security purposes" and if this is borne out in reality, they'll be able to demolish some existing subway lines with the lower population.
And let's stop with this "light rail" nonsense. Let's call it what it is ... TROLLEYS ... "living in the past" ... not that there's anything wrong with that.
"And let's stop with this "light rail" nonsense. Let's call it what it is ... TROLLEYS ... "living in the past" ... not that there's anything wrong with that."
Light Rail, Trolleys...whatever you want to call them do have their place in transit. It doesn't matter whether the system is 105 years old (aka the Tremont Street Subway in Boston, which is now just a section of the Green Line), or if it's brand new. It's a people mover on rails, and it doesn't have to be heavy rail. -Nick
Yeah, but it needs to be more than a tourist trap or political stunt. I'll bet that the Republicans are banking on low ridership numbers to "prove" that transit isn't popular.
Yeah, but it [light ral] needs to be more than a tourist trap or political stunt. I'll bet that the Republicans are banking on low ridership numbers to "prove" that transit isn't popular.
Most of the newer light rail systems have done well in ridership terms.
Come on Pistol Pete, you're spitting in the wind. Jersey is too busy eating his sour grapes to hear what you said.
"Yeah, but it needs to be more than a tourist trap or political stunt. I'll bet that the Republicans are banking on low ridership numbers to "prove" that transit isn't popular"
I highly doubt that, Mike. Just because Republicans don't spend as much money on, well, everything, like the Democrats, doesn't mean they are going to waste taxpayer money for something that silly and untrue. -Nick
"Actually, New York City will be in big trouble, but not for THAT reason. There's already chatter of federal demand for any corporation in New York City to move at least HALF their employees at least 300 miles away from the city for "national security purposes" and if this is borne out in reality, they'll be able to demolish some existing subway lines with the lower population. "
Not getting enough of your daily RDA of Vitamin H, I see....
:0)
Actually, I expected people would think Unca Selkirk was smoking the Quack pipe, but it's QUITE true. There have been articles in the NYTimes, WSJ and other magazines for corporate management recommending that any company which maintains records in New York City and a few other cities consider moving HALF of their employees to "a secure location at least 300 miles distant from New York City and other potential targets for financial continuity."
The Federal Reserve has also endorsed this policy as has FEMA ... here's some links for those who doubt:
Impact of 9/11 on NYC (ADOBE PDF FILE!)
http://www.mckinsey.com/knowledge/articles/ImpactofAttack.asp
Corporate White Paper (PDF FILE!)
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue6_12/cox/
http://www.facilitycity.com/fc_con_01_09_special.asp
(Actually, I expected people would think Unca Selkirk was smoking the Quack pipe, but it's QUITE true. There have been articles in the NYTimes, WSJ and other magazines for corporate management recommending that any company which maintains records in New York City and a few other cities consider moving HALF of their employees to "a secure location at least 300 miles distant from New York City and other potential targets for financial continuity." )
I've heard from someone who knows more about this than all but a few hundred people in the country, and its all overblown. Only a few critical financial functions, most of which most of you have never heard of, are being asked to have "active-active" capabilities, and these do not amount to more than 20,000 jobs. The stock exchages are NOT among them, let alone all the underwriters and analysts that account for most of our jobs. The requirement might lead to ADDITIONAL jobs overall, since both locations will have to be fully capable, so those who do not want to pay are trying to stampeded New Yorks's politicians into joining the opposition. At most 10,000 jobs, and perhaps half that many, are at stake for NYC and NJ.
Plenty of vacant space, and cheap housing, in Buffalo, which is outside the 300 mile limit. They should all move their back up centers there. Just rehab some huge factories into computer centers in one part of town, to recreate another cluster of skills.
Yep, but for what it's worth, our OWN little company was advised by customers of ours that we're too close to NYC in Smallbany and should move further away. And of course there's the incessant "You're not SAFE unless you're in Georgia" trash that flies across my desk twice a day. Well, I'm a NEW YORKER ... and I've stopped buying Coca Cola and am now drinking the official drink of Michael Jackson until we make a deal with Polar Beverages of Boston to stock our hydrant for us. :)
"America, wet your bedsheets" is the mantra for the next two years. The game worked. :(
Good post Pistol Pete but I hate to break the bad news to you but Selkirk, Jersey and Frisco Vartanoff aren't buying what you have to say because their minds are already made up. We Republicans simply hate rapid transit. That's their take on it and you will not change their mind with facts or otherwise, but nice try anyway.
It is against the Republican phlisophy that Americans should be forced to endure cramped conditions when ::shudder:: other people when they could use their own personal conveyances that give them the "FREEDOM" to go anywhere they wish, anytime they want. America is about FREEDOM, not fixed timetables and no personal space.
Tell me why any Republican would support transit aside from some sort of concession? Without it you sell more cars, sell more oil, build more roads and brand spanking new bussiness locations out in the open suburbs where there is plenty of room to live and park and drive.
So, keep beliving the fiction of Republican trnasit based on a few paltry light rail systems. You're already living in a fantacy world.
The majority of Americans live in, or near, urban areas. For the past half century, billions of federal dollars have been spent on road construction and expansion. The end result, in 2002, is stop dead traffic, increased air pollution, and a serious inability to move goods and services from A to B. It seems to me that Republicans, despite their majority, can't afford to NOT support mass transit.
The end result, in 2002, is stop dead traffic, increased air pollution, and a serious inability to move goods and services from A to B.
That is only true in the largest urban areas. The ideal Republican plan would be to get the bussiness interests out of urban areas and into exurban areas where pressures on highways are non-existant. The inner cities (typically home to democratic support) would be left to rot as litteral modern ghettos.
I am not being arbitrary here. If my goals were their goals that is exactly what I would do.
We are an urban society in this country. Mid size cities nationwide with populations under half a million, often are surrounded by suburbs which swell the metropolitan areas to well over a million or more! A major factor in this scenario is the failure of expanded highways to address a fundamental problem that is NOT unique to large cities like New York- moving an ever growing # of people. The fact that many smaller cities are investing $$$ in various types of mass transit systems (heavy rail, light rail), seems to me to indicate that the climate is changing, and there is nothing the Republicans can do but support it. They must be doing so to a certain degree, or we wouldn't be seeing subways in L.A., light rails systems almost eveywhere (it seems), OR SERIOUS planning for a 2nd Ave. subway.
Sorry Mike, Sour Grapes Jersey didn't hear a word you said. He was too busy having a snack with his buddy Corzine, champion of the poor.
I am not trying to champion them. I just think its probably a good idea not to kick sand in their face.
Thank you Mike. What you said is reality but Sour Grapes Jersey still is buying it. He seems to have a hard time believing that many of us Gopers are all for public transit as cheap, quick and efficient. But keep working on Jersey. He might get religion yet.
(As I've noted elsewhere, predominately Republican states have taken the initiative in developing light rail. Consider the successful
new system in uber-Republican Utah as a prime example. )
That isn't necessarily good for New York. That means that Republicans will want to reduce NY's transit funding even further, to get more for themselvels.
As I've noted elsewhere, predominately Republican states have taken the initiative in developing light rail. Consider the successful new system in uber-Republican Utah as a prime example.
That isn't necessarily good for New York. That means that Republicans will want to reduce NY's transit funding even further, to get more for themselvels.
If a Republican Congress cuts New York's transit funding in favor of the Sunbelt - which is not a foregone conclusion, but let's assume that it is - it may not be for the reasons you mention. Efficient use of the funds may be the key factor. In other words, Congress likely figures that transit funds sent to, say, Phoenix or Tampa actually will be put to good use, namely by constructing and operating new transit systems. Transit funds sent to New York, on the other hand, are more likely to be piddled away on worthless "studies," skimmed off by greedy politicians, and most of all sucked up by the unions. It's a classic case of throwing good money after bad.
Trust me, members of Congress and others knowledgeable about transit are not clueless when it comes to Typical New York Incompetence. They know all about the Second Avenue Subway debacle, the rampant union featherbedding, the way it took seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel connecting 63rd Street to Queens Boulevard, how it takes a year to fix a broken escalator, NYCT's insistence on 24/7 staffing at every station, and so on. Unless New York cleans up its act, and fast, it'll continue to be the nation's laughingstock and will end up sucking wind in its quest for transit money.
Yep,
Those damn unions again. They have a lot of nerve fighting for better pay and benefits for thier member, and useless things like job safety. Hell, the more people maimed or killed on the job means more job openings and lower unemployement. We can just trust our employers to treat the workers fairly. After all, before unions we had it good, 6 or 7 day work weeks, 12 hour days, no benefits and sickly pay scales. What do these unions what, dignity and repect for the workers? How dare they!
I happen to be a strong union man..was a member of the American Federation of Teachers for 30 years.
The TEACHERS UNION ... Public Enemy number ONE in the eyes of the republicans ... I'd HIDE if'n I were you - are those torches I see in the distance? :)
That is the WHOLE REASON FOR SCHOOL CHOICE-- NUKE THE NEA For a public school teacher to support Republicans is like Bambi voting for The Deer Hunter.
I'd have to agree with you. 90% of New York's unions endorsed the Paturkey. There'll be no tears shed here when they get theirs. :)
TWU ... calling TWU ... your turn in the barrel ... NEXT!
What about the fact that All of the industrial unions I'm aware of endorsed McCall.
So how come the only place he could set up his campaign headquarters was the Janitor's union hall of SEIU? Seriously, even the Democratic machine Mayor Jennings of Albany puckered up and bent over for
Pataki. Most of the unions *I* know of went for Paturkey, TWU went for the Green party (?!) Matters not now though, does it?
Reality will be here soon enough, revealed in January and put into place once there is a state budget. State budget. Heh. The voters have decided though, enjoy ...
I'm my own man John. PERIOD. I believe when my party starts respecting the rights of all workers they will be better off. I have said this countless times to my co-partyers and that's that.
They looked attentive,thet walked into the next room for a good belly laugh.
Not to laugh myself, but that's rich. Even the DEMOCRAPS have abandoned the working schlump because they can't raise the campaign cash. If you want to know where you stand with EITHER party, go visit ANY of your elected officials and try to talk to them about your own issues. Go ahead, SEE how much you matter in terms of their time. And say hello to that intern that runs interference for them who you'll spend time with if you get ANYONE to talk to at all.
The repubs will spit on you, the democraps will play the "your call is important to us, please remain on the line for the next available ... click" ... who lowered YOUR taxes? Nobody. Who's looking out for YOU? Nobody. Nobody for President. :(
The Homeland Security Bill was held up by Democrats because bu$h wants to destroy the rights of the employees in the new agency Furthermore, the Republicans are working with thier friends in the business community to make this Republican utopia come about in workplaces throughout america.
Well, since democrats STILL outnumber republicans nationwide by a large number and have a tendency to vote for kook subparties or more likely stay home because it conflicted with the Star Trek marathon, I s'pose there's going to be an awful lot of comeuppance dished out over the next two years. I'd be sympathetic, but WE* got off our butts and voted. Betcha many of those whining did not, or voted for the tinfoil party. Whoops.
Still, in talking to some of the folks I know who work for the democrats, the OBJECTIVE was to get out of the picture so the repubs could enjoy the spotlight as the economy goes down the toilet, referred to often as the "Hooverville strategy" ... let's see what happens. But as for the political number, I'm QUITE done for a while. Exit right to funway ... no flashes, please ...
Aw come on Selkirk, they know who I am and I dance to my own band. If they don't like my brand of Republicanism they can go heave ho. They know that on the crunch issues I'm with them and I always remind them that Lincoln thought unions would be a good thing for workers and TR was the first President to actively defend a union. All I'm doing is adhering to the roots of my party.
Sounds like you didn't open the campaign materials when they arrived at your house. "Teachers Union obstructs nation" was one of the ditties we got here ... but not to worry, those campaign fliers come in handy this time of year. Put them into a meatgrinder and blow the confetti into the walls to insulate for winter. Such a deal. But seriously, the GOP considers the teachers union to be one step beneath those pesky artists and Barbra Streisand. I'd watch my back. Heh.
The examples you state of "Typical New York Incompetence", sounds to me like a lot of ancient history. The examples you mention all reflect back to a time when New York, and the northeast, were flying solo in regards to maintaining, or (God forbid) expanding their aging transit infrastructure. Cars and highways were the future in the Sun Belt of the south and west, and to hell with aging subways and crumbling cities from another era.
I have lived and worked in NYC and LI my whole life, and was once extremely cynical of the MTA and it's prospects for turning the system around.
However, credit must be given for what has been accomplished to date, and the outlook for the future.
The 2d Ave. subway WAS a debacle for over 50 years, but the rent has finally come due, and the need is overwhelming, and the MTA is, at least taking the right steps toward completing it.
The 63d St. connector IS COMPLETE. After a half century of abandonments, and diversion of $$$$, I'll take it. To be fair, it was a difficult job, despite the short distance.
How many subway stations have been completely rehabbed to date?
I don't believe that, in our present pro transit environment (nationwide), partisan or regional politics will be an issue in securing federal transit $$$ for NY.
The examples you state of "Typical New York Incompetence", sounds to me like a lot of ancient history. The examples you mention all reflect back to a time when New York, and the northeast, were flying solo in regards to maintaining, or (God forbid) expanding their aging transit infrastructure. Cars and highways were the future in the Sun Belt of the south and west, and to hell with aging subways and crumbling cities from another era.
I have lived and worked in NYC and LI my whole life, and was once extremely cynical of the MTA and it's prospects for turning the system around.
However, credit must be given for what has been accomplished to date, and the outlook for the future.
Well, maybe you're right, I certainly hope so. We'll have to see what happens with respect to the Second Avenue Subway. If the MTA can actually get something accomplished, it will be a very good sign. But I'd say it's premature to say that there has been a turnaround until we see some progress.
Thoughtful remarks Peter, I hope you're right (about pro mass transit out side of NY).
In NY Pataki, Bloomberg & Kalikon have serious money problems that is going to prevent anything of a major nature getting started, mass transit wise.
Not that I approve of a balkanized Amtrak, but wouldn't the NE come out ahead if each of the regions had to pay for itself (operationally)? I thought the money losers were the long-haul Western runs.
Actually they aren't. I'll be posting an interesting Destination Freedom article about that very soon.
The Northeast Corridor covers its operating costs, and could cover capital costs as well if it was operated by someone other than Amtrak. But the ROW has been left in serious disrepair and needs upgrading.
It's sure screw NEW YORK ... New York pays next to NONE of its fair share for Amtrak and prefers to stick Connecticut and Jersey with most of the costs. If Amtrak had to pay its fair share of Amtrak, it'd be a mighty staggering amount. :(
The impact on new starts (subways, light rail, commuter rail) will be minimal. It has been a very popular program on a bipartisan basis, and through many changes on the hill and administrations.
Amtrak, on the other hand, is in deep trouble. The biggest critic is (new Commerce Chairman) McCain. He is a media darling who never takes the hits for being the point person against the system. Just watch it happen again. He'll make draconian proposals, and there won't be a peep in the NY Times or elsewhere in the media establishment.
OK, one by one:
1) AMTRAK.
Toast as we know it, even before John "Faster than a Speeding Locamotive" Warner had his little incident down in Virgina the other day. Amtrak's funding will be cut back severely, with IMHO the best option as far as the Northeast corridor is concerned being a "pay-to-play" one, in which the rail subsidies are redirected from the federal government's responsability to the individual states.
For high-usage areas such as Washington-New York-Boston, this might actually be a good thing, because the states with large areas and small populations in the South, Plains and Mountain States will have to take over funding the biggest money-losing lines or lose them. The trains in the northeast overall don't make money, but they don't lose that much, either. David Gunn knows this, which is why his initial plan even before the election was pointing Amtrak in this direction.
2) FTA funding for New York.
Conservative Republicans in the south and west such as Tom DeLay will be looking to slash here, but New York is probably in a better position to survive this than in your average year because of the Republican governor and mayor, which will offset the fact that all six Tri-State area Senators are now part of the minority party. Add to the mix the continued World Trade Center situation -- it stays on the political map so long as Bush continues his War on Terror -- and the FTA may come out all right, so long as the city isn't seen as squandering the initial federal recovery funds.
3) Major subway investments
Any funding would be part of the 2004 transportation bill. On a larger scale, the Republicans' need for suburban votes and the fact that only a few cities have any room for any more major new highways means that mass transit will not get the shaft some people fear. Suburbanites are far more inclined to support rail transit development than they were 20 years ago, and even in Texas, DeLay's stance is at odds with his own governor, and the reps up north in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. However, how much cash, if any, gets directed towards any possible heavy rail expansion in New York remains to be seen.
If New York and New Jersey are considered states "in play" in the 2004 election, that actually increases their chances of getting funding in the 2004 bill, the same way some extra $$$ were tossed to New York post-WTC to help Pataki's re-election chances. He and Bloomberg convincing the Republicans to hold their 2004 convention in New York would also make it more likely some goodies will be thrown the city's way, but the key will probably be the city and MTA coming up with a coherent transportation plan for Lower Manhattan.
Federal funding is still far more likely for projects tied to the WTC restoration, which is why a Second Ave. subway project linked to the Nassau loop and a downtown transit hub would be more likely to fly than a stand-alone project (the Flushing line extension to the West Side will get federal help if New York gets the 2012 Olympics, but that money wouldn't be forthcoming until the 2006 Transportation bill at the earliest).
The title of my post is a little misleading because I plan to call the RNC tomorrow and ask them what their plans for rapid transit are. I know in the past it has been evident that the GOP has been less than enamored with the subway systems in this country, although in some Republican controlled states there have been numerous light rail lines implemented with their blessing.
As a Republican I am ebullient over yesterday's doings, but as a subway fanatic I want to impress upon my Republican friends that public transportation can go a long way to alleviate some of our dependence on foreign oil. Anyway guys, wish me luck.
Next stop on Fred's Sea Beach-----Avenue U.
("...but as a subway fanatic I want to impress upon my Republican friends
that public transportation can go a long way to alleviate some of our dependence on foreign oil. Anyway guys, wish me luck. ")
I'd bet they'll ask you if you are a Democrat. They care about how they can get us to use more oil, how they can drill for more oil and how they can make a killing with it.
OnTheJuice was an engineer and a electronics communication specialist of license. I am also an avowed Conservative. Electricity does not grow on trees...it comes from powerplants, many of which are fired up with foreign oil or domestic hard coal. A ten car Redbird trainset weighs about 400 tons requiring a phenomenal amount of power to operate...and carrying a handfull of passengers requires a phenomenal amount of fuel waste and atmospheric pollution. Selkirk, bring out the shoe paddle. I love nuclear power...it smells like VICTORY! CI Peter
Nuke the saudis 2 ways.
I have to admit, I get quite a chuckle out of "biomass" ... takes four times as much energy to MAKE it as it yields, same for hydrogen which takes better than ten. And while coal may be plentiful FOR NOW, if America's piggy energy needs would deplete that too in twenty years. I won't even go into the clinkers and pollution from coal and what to do with the slag.
Solar *is* an answer but you know how inefficient THAT is, and of course the problem of UV pollution of the silicon causing output to fall off from the day they're put out in the open is the reason why hams get such GREAT deals on "used amorphous" from the oil companies when they swap out cells every few years.
Damned shame it is, but nuclear *is* about as good as it gets. I just don't want to live near a kettle with the daughter products and bad plumbing. Makes me THANKFUL Bomba doesn't make tea kettles. What DOES surprise me though is that nobody's thought of using the waste product to generate hydrogen. After all, Three Mile Island and that pesky bubble in the reactor DID prove that you can generate hydrogen on the cheap (plus "solar salt" for water softeners and MickeyD fries) from waste fuel rods.
But hey, pleasing Allah is an easy way out. So what if people get killed for that Texas tea? Insurance companies chalk it up as a mere cost of doing business. :(
But for all the years I've been trying to find an answer, I haven't found one either that ACTUALLY WORKS ...
"And while coal may be plentiful FOR NOW, if America's piggy energy needs would deplete that too in twenty years."
Also, the coal industry doesn't like to publicize this, but pure carbon products produce about half as much energy per ton of CO2 created as hydrocarbons do! So coal doubles the global warming problem.
"But for all the years I've been trying to find an answer, I haven't found one either that ACTUALLY WORKS ..."
Wind works. Tremendous numbers of farmers would love to lease 5% of their land to wind power producers. The whole southern tier of NY State is a perfect area long on wind, short on NIMBYs, and strongly in need of income. The northern Great Plains are great too (though there is a shortage of transmission capacity there).
If you have enough wind turbines and enough transmission capacity, the local variations in wind cancel out. The main catch is that it's less windy in the summer. But more electricity gets used for heat than AC anyway.
The original turbines in CA were garbage, but the new ones are good. Low maintenance, don't need to be stopped when it gets too windy, reliable, etc. Oddly enough, Enron was a major manufacturer, but I beleieve that business has been successfully transferred to a real company.
Nope, gotta argue "Wind power" with you there ... FIRST off, go spend a night in Ellenville, NY where there's a wind farm. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO at varying pitches all the doodah night and day. It'll make you crazy in ten hours, no joke. Wind can be quite variable too. Ask the Brits who committed to it whole hog and are rather unhappy with the results.
I'll tell you where it WOULD work though ... OFFSHORE. A couple of miles out on the oceans, the noise would only bother the fish so that problem is eliminated and the winds out there are a bit more constant. Only problem is the wire to carry the current back ON SHORE. This scenario though might be viable, but in terms of sheer numbers required for practical amounts of power, the breezes would be attentuated to the point that nobody would want to live near the shore anymore, so that's another consideration too.
In the current small numbers of those things, folks don't quite know the realities yet. They're definitely useful in small quantities though, but I've heard the annoying whine of those things and out in the sticks it's hellatiously loud compared to ambient noise. Now if they wanna put those things up in Queens, I'm all for it. :)
How old are the turbines in Ellenville? Newer ones are much quieter. I also haven't heard any complaints about noise related to the (new, big) Madison County wind farm.
They've been there a while - GE's ... before I go further, I think I should explain why I talk about this so "matter-o-factly" ... I worked for the NYS Public Service Commission for about two years before I said "up yours, I'm going back to the private sector, have a nice day."
While I worked in the "Communications division" (phones, cable, radio, computers/internet) I found that the Paturkey PSC was not the LEAST bit interested in "input" from technical/engineering types when the lawyers for the lobbyists had "all the necessary insight" on EVERY issue (that's why DSL STILL isn't available in most parts of the state because it's oh such black magic, we can't share it with everyone or the SUN would explode) ... but being there and working with others who had to look over the bullshirt would ask me and others there who DO have backgrounds in technology and DID the research.
Instead, I got paid to go around to various Paturkey Appointee's machines all over the agency and erase their tracks of their porn downloads "lest the press get a FOI and demand to examine the contents of the Chief Counsel's computer" ... no joke, that's what I did. I automated the process of hiding interenet tracks and started nsclean.com after all I learned and continue to re-learn every day.
But I *did* the "efficiency studies" and I looked into ALL of this because giving the largest share of our economy to those who spit in our faces and blow up innocents just frosted my butt and I wanted to *DO* something about it LONG before 9/11 ... alas, politicians are not interested in any of that and the energy companies fill the candidate of their choice's wallets so we'll have none of that.
So I spent as MUCH of the "people's time" as I could looking into the various proposals to see if there was any practicality to it. I learned the *REALITIES* of nuclear power, nuclear WAR and a number of other scenarios. I studied "cold fusion" (heh) and a number of other Green Party crackpot schemes, looked for that "200 miles carburetor" only to find it's BULLSHIRT, I looked for information on the "gas pill" (also bullshirt) and nuerous other solutions to offer to get in good with the Paturkey administration, earning my nut by trying to find answers. For two years, I studied this DEEPLY because I really didn't have much else to do with my time on the people's timeclock.
That's the reason why I'm so fatalistic about all this, I actually was PAID to look into all this only to find out that Paturkey and pals didn't want to KNOW the realities ... follow the money. :(
I'll tell you where it WOULD work though ... OFFSHORE. A couple of miles out on the oceans,
Gee you mean like this and this? Both links refer to the same project, just two different pages. That has to be one of the best ideas I have ever seen relating to power generation. Just about the only problem I could see would be the obvious maintinence requirements, but then I suppose it wouldn't be too different a job from working one of the new huge Suspention Bridges that are going up (like the Akashi Kaikyo bridge, 6,000 some feet long, 700 ft towers). We've been laying cable on the ocean floor for a century and a half, so we know how to, although pumping actual power, not just signals would add complexity, that part it fundamentally doable (well obviously, since they're doing it already in Denmark).
It would be nice to see them do it out around Montauk or something, maybe stretch them around Shelter Island, then use the power they generate to run LIRR electrifications out to both Greenport and Montauk. MTA could build it, LIRR get the power, then sell what's left to LIPA, to pay for the SAS. Even better would be to see a wholely separate transmission line go from the Turbines out at the end of LI into the city. In the event of something like the great power outages of the past, a subway system isolated by breakers would be powered by the Turbines and would allow the city to limp on with minimal service.
I must say that I have seen a few Turbines, but never really heard them, infact, that was the one thing that impressed me the time my family stopped up on one of the hills west of LA, all that power is being generated, and yet, with all the flow noise from the wind, you can't hear the windmills. Only one was making a groaning noise, and that one had an older looking stand than the others, probably one of the first on the hill, due for replacement.
It's nice to see a thread that started out completely OT and slightly inflamtory come back to something of actual importance, and something close to On Topic.
Yep, I was aware of that - the Brits are planning on similar as well. And sorry for my attempts to rip off-topics and put them back on the rails every now and then. I refer to it as "penance." :)
My own "experience" with them though is that they can be noisy (not much of a problem offshore) but at the same time, they don't generate all THAT much power based on their costs. Of course, this may change. They're certainly more efficient than biomass though at this time. Oh, if only we could harness the energy from those gasbags we keep re-electing. We wouldn't have this thread. Heh.
"they don't generate all THAT much power based on their costs. Of course, this may change."
It has changed. Last figures I saw was that a single 1.5 MWatt wind turbine cost about $1.5 million fully installed.
$1 per watt of capacity is reasonable, since you may be able to get about 5000 watts per year per watt of capacity. And I'm sure in 5-10 years that cost will have gone down by a factor of 2, while capital costs for traditional generators have already incorporated the learning curve, economies of scale, etc.
Those figures are MUCH better than they were 7 years ago when last I looked at this. Maybe there's hope after all ...
There is. AIM has a point and some encouraging news to boot.
I'd say there might be hope them as part of the answer after 2004 (or heaven forfend, 2008) ... I don't see them going far under the current regime though. The biggest investor in wind power was ENRON ya know ...
Enron bought the wind turbine building business from a successful company
GE has bought the operations in full of the former Enron wind company
Wind power is turning out to be a great source of cheap electicity. The turbines are cheap to put up and new computer control circuity that automatically adjusts the fins on the turbine greatly improve their output even in wind gusts as low as 11 mph.
In amsterdam they have wind turbines along railroad Right of ways. I think that may be an idea that needs to be looked at in this country. I did not notice any noice coming from the turbines. THen again I was inside a TGV train coming up from paris.
Lets hope that the new energy bill in congress retains the tax credit for installing wind power turbines.
"In amsterdam they have wind turbines along railroad Right of ways."
Can we install blades large enough so they chop off the roofs of cars which dare to go around the crossing gates?
:0)
(It would be nice to see them do it out around Montauk or something, maybe stretch them around Shelter Island, then use the power they generate to run LIRR electrifications out to both Greenport and Montauk.)
LIPA proposed a series of offshore windmills along the south shore. The NIMBY's have blocked it on "environmental" grounds, which just shows the extent to which the term "environment" has been hijacked by snobs and luddites. It's as idiotic as having to do "environmental" studies of subway improvments.
The objections to windmills are noise and "visual pollution." The noise issue is reduced if they are far offshore, but even the possibility of noise is enough to raise objections from wealthy waterfront property owners. Visual pollution? First will come objections. Then acceptance. Two decades later, if LIPA wanted to tear them down to build new ones, you'd have objections from those who wanted to preserve part of the Long Island landscape.
Personally, I'd like to see a row of windmills down the entire Long Island and Staten Island shore from Montauk to Tottenville. I'd spend them money to finish off the bases in identical tan brick with the state logo, paint them identical white, and put two beacons on each, one offshoe and one facing onshore. In ten years, they'd be on every license plate in Nassau, Suffolk, Queens, Kings and Richmond counties.
In cape code there is a wind project that is being held up because the locals believe it will ruin thier tranquil view.
To apease theses concerns the developer had to move the project 12 miles offshore. Now the project is getting held up because a group is now contending that the army corp of engineers who issued the permit to build has not right too.
THe windmills along the rail ROW in holland were a thing a beuety.
We should not hesistate to encourage wind mill development off shore.
Agreed, so long as potential problems with harm to birds and the like are addressed. A lot of this NIMBY stuff is silly, but it illustrates the problems involved with bringing new modes of energy productio on-line.
Here's the link to the story on the cpae cod off shore wind farm
http://www.eyeforenergy.com/content.asp?news=33136&nli=energy
An interesting article.
This is a welcome development, energy-wise. But please note the power output - 75 megawatts. The Canadian project? 50 megawatts.
I'm not complaining. I hope it happens. But we can't rely on these projects to supplant other sources of baseload power.
Actually, since you mention it...
While offshore wind farms are gaining steam (heh) in Europe, LIPA's also got them on its mind. The plan is to build off of the South Shore. They've either floated an RFP, or are doing whatever it is they do immediatley before that.
Don't get your hopes up, though: there's still plenty of time for the project to be killed.
Mark
The whole southern tier of NY State is a perfect area long on wind ...
Yes, but it's kind of hard to keep politicians in the harness :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's some promise there, and hopefully it will be encouraged. But don't get carried away - 2,000 acres of wind turbines still can't generate what a single 1,000 MW nuclear plant can, and 2,000 acres of wind turbines creates some environmental problems too (nothing gives you a free lunch). And with new passive safety technologies, you can now pack 3 gigawatts of baseload into the space of just a hundred acres or so.
Additionally, wind energy is still not demonstrably reliable enough to make up more than a few percent of baseload power.
I'm all for it - and I want to see it paired up with solar plants like Solar One (a tall water tower surrounded by mirrors which focus sunlight at the top, create steam and drive a turbogenerator), and the judicious use of new solar cells. Of course at a maximum of 1 kw per square meter (that's all you can get at the earth's surface) there are limitations with that too.
"2,000 acres of wind turbines still can't generate what a single 1,000 MW nuclear plant can"
True, but they're roughly comparable. 1.5 MB wind turbines can be spaced every 400', I think, which means 750 MB of capacity in 2000 acres (which is only 3 square miles). And the US has the better part of a billion acres of undeveloped land, much of it windy and not scenic (think N Dakota, Iowa, MN).
"2,000 acres of wind turbines creates some environmental problems too"
Depends what you call environmental problems. I believe they have figured out how to keep eagles from flying in. They look visually obtrusive, but farmers and cows don't mind that. They make some noise, but not as much as they used to, and again farmers and cows don't mind.
I'm not suggesting putting them in "forever wild" sections of Catskill or Adirondack Parks. But the southern tier of NY State is about 10 million acres with numerous ideal low ridges, owned by farmers who can use the money. If I lived in Elmira, NY, I'd rather have a wind farm on the nearby ridges than a nuclear plant down the road. The wind farms would also create semi-skilled local jobs for turbine maintenance workers.
"Additionally, wind energy is still not demonstrably reliable enough to make up more than a few percent of baseload power."
Yes, you can have a hot sultry summer day where the entirety of NY State is calm. But for 9 months of the year it's always windy somewhere. And as I said, wind power is much better for supplying power for electric heat than for A/C. Winters are consistently windy.
Anyway, the power companies have all these peak load gas turbines. I'm not suggesting one would decommission those turbines; wind power would allow the turbines to get much less usage, reducing the burning of fossil fuel.
There's a nice map of NY State wind strengths at http://www.abacuswave.com/truewind/.
"True, but they're roughly comparable. 1.5 MB wind turbines can be spaced every 400', I think, which means 750 MB of capacity in 2000 acres (which is only 3 square miles). And the US has the better part of a billion acres of undeveloped land, much of it windy and not scenic (think N Dakota, Iowa, MN)."
True, but then you have to service the turbines - which means pavment or gravel roads for service vehicles, which means drainage, which means...I'm not saying that's always bad, but you have to pay attention to that.
"If I lived in Elmira, NY, I'd rather have a wind farm on the nearby ridges than a nuclear plant down the road."
Only because you don't understand the relative risks. If you did, you would have no problem at all with a nuke down the road.
"The wind farms would also create semi-skilled local jobs for turbine maintenance workers."
Yes, that is true. But any new generating plant creates skilled and semiskilled jobs and helps the local economy. I do agree with you that this is a plus.
"Anyway, the power companies have all these peak load gas turbines. I'm not suggesting one would decommission those turbines; wind power would allow the turbines to get much less usage, reducing the burning of fossil fuel. "
I strongly agree with you, if there is sufficient developable capacity for wind on the grid. And this should be pursued even if we don't reach that capacity.
"I love nuclear power...it smells like VICTORY!"
I have no inherent objection to nuclear power myself. But if nuclear power is so wonderful, why hasn't any private operator built a plant in the last 20 years? The answer is that by the time you make the plant safe to operate, you have so much capital expense that oil is cheaper.
Also, I'll believe Yucca Mtn. is open for business when it happens.
Yucca mountain will come back to bite us in a few hundred years, the issue there is water table and corrosion of metal. In Europe, they've at least had the sense to bury their nasties BELOW the water table in noncorrosive containers. That bit aside (glassification could be a BIG help here, but too expensive) the real issue for private nuclear operators is the same as it is for Larry $ilverstein and most developers these days - INSURANCE COSTS ...
Nuclear power may still be almost "too cheap to meter" but the infrastructure, insurance and operating and compliance costs are phenomenal. So yeah, that's the problem. It's a shame though that politicians and corporate intrigue has kept SOLAR and battery storage technology from taking off ... that could be a viable alternative. Some day once we're cut off from our "friends" in the middle east, we'll be forced to deal with it and I fully expect a large number of fallow patents to be turned over to manufacturing.
"Status quo" though is a corporation's best friend ... makes for fatter dividends and reinvestment credits. :(
"It's a shame though that politicians and corporate intrigue has kept SOLAR and battery storage technology from taking off"
There's one more trouble with solar, and that's the management costs. Say solar panels were free to manufacture. You'd still have to manage the process of putting them on everyone's roof, connecting them to the grid, detecting malfunctions and dispatching a repair person to private property, dealing with the physical structural issues (one in a hundred is going to be so misinstalled as to screw up the roof), repairing damage after storms, dealing with liability issues (who pays if a storm rips off the panel and damages your roof?), etc. It will magnify the problems electric companies have with outside plant 1000-fold.
Also, solar is a great provider of electricity for AC, but terrible for heating.
Actually, I've seen the HEATING part work NICELY. But yeah, one of the problems with me living upstate is that LAND isn't an issue for a solar cell farm (sorry for forgetting NYC's density, been up all night and AM tired and fear picking up on this when I wake up at sunset for another day of dissecting trojan horses, worms and viruses again, I'll be dumer than Dubya) but at the same time, the old windmill solution is even LESS workable (them blades need room to go WOOOOOOOOO) so we'll call it a draw. :)
SOLAR FURNACES (look it up - mirrors and a tower to receive the focused sunlight onto a steam turbine pipe) work pretty well if you have enough tracking reflector mirrors to make it go. That black plastic crap that people put on their rooves is humorous, but then just like "heat pumps" they work pretty nicely at LOW latitudes, but NOT up here.
The most efficient photovoltaics I've seen come in at around 12% efficiency (the first hour they've been exposed to UV, they begin dropping quickly thereafter as they "color") and are typically as abysmal as 4% ... GULF and SHELL tend to remove theirs when they hit about 9% since they're no longer worth the desert southwest real estate once they get down there ... but the intensity of solar light and UV is QUITE capable of many photovoltaic cehmical reactions of far higher yield. The polycrystalline jobs are far more efficient than the ancient Clarex silicons were, and there IS hope ... but the limiting factor has ALWAYS been battery technology (OK, we'll call it "Storage" since there's more ways of storing energy than just batteries - TA's been experimenting with twilring metal too) ...
But yeah, we've got us a problem here - there ARE alternatives, but NONE of them has been developed properly owing to a complete lack of GUMPTION ... this esoteric stuff will ONLY be looked again in earnest when oil hits $120 a barrel, if even then. :(
You DO realize that's a prohibited thought. Not to worry, when we come to visit you for your conjugal, we'll bring chocolates and smokes for ya. :)
Brace yourself, my brother Democrats. Go seek shelter and hold tight for the catagory 5 storm that is about to sweep over your party. The vacuum left by the (not) unexpected departure of Dick Gephardt is bound to cause a major upheaval.
The storm will rise from an unexpected corner, however. The democrats, 'the party of inclusion' has chosen Nancy Pelosi to fill the vacant shoes. Now they had the chance to be the real party of inclusion and select a black rep from Texas or even a Jewish Rep from elsewhere (forgive me if I can't recall their names) however, they chose the richest white woman they could find.
The problem is Ms. Pelosi is liberal - very liberal. In fact, Ms Pelosi is so liberal she's just one hashmark to the right of out and out socialism. Oh, that great storm I mentioned - I believe it'll be the wind caused by the mass defection from your 'party of inclusion ' as people realize that they are not being represented and most certainly not being served.
Ah well ... dunno how I got to be selected as the poster child of the "new democratic party" but I'll serve proudly if someone would just cut me a check. No money, no endorsement. :)
It's actually entertaining to know that the democrats have reached out to the deepest of their own lunatic fringe, I guess that'll sorta tip the scales of lunacy back since the republicans seem to have embraced their own far reaches.
The way I figure it, both sides have gone so far out into the lunatic fringe that there's no hope of finding a sane middle, the best we can hope for is that the weight of both extremes causes the platform to break in the middle near the fulcrum and everybody will get a day or two off because the government broke.
Rest assured though, I'm not impressed by EITHER pander bear party and just like the battle of the mental midgets in 2000, once again we got served up a tin plate of unheated poo once again. So THIS year, we voted "Working Families" party. And hey, guess what? OUR party survived the election! Right to Life, Libertarian, Liberal, Marijuana Reform and several of the other kook parties are DONE in this state.
So three cheers for Ms. Pelosi, I hope she gives the other side gas. :)
Actually, given Bush's connection with Pelosi's daughter it will be interesting to see how Nancy deals with George during the upcoming Congressional session.
Heh. Also makes me glad I turned down HBO. It's the one "package" I wouldn't buy. I get SUCH a kick though out of all this partisan hoohah, both parties are the same bizarro world. Mirror images of one another. I think it should be an amusing two years - Pelosi on the left, Fallwell on the right. Perfect together. :)
Ha! That was rich---and this time I can't be accused to starting a political brouhaha. And, of course, you are right but it no sweat off of my bodini because I'm a member of the other party, you know, the one that WON last Tueaday. Still, it will be nice to see the Dems squirm for awhile. However, the ball is in Bush's court now and he must do the people's work. If he does it will be clear sailing in 2004 when the Prez takes on the ticket of Hillary Clinton and John Corzine. Now there's a pair for you.
Rumor has it that when Pelosi is elected as Minority Leader, a few Democrats might defect over to the GOP. Stay tuned.
Fred, on the contrary, I read an article today in the paper with the headline:
Bi-Partisan Effort by Democrats and Republicans to Pour Money Into West End and Brighton Lines
No Money For Open Cut Bklyn Lines
Bi-Partisan Effort by Democrats and Republicans to Pour Money Into West End and Brighton Lines
No Money For Open Cut Bklyn Lines
Er, some parts of the Brighton line look awfully open-cuttish to me ...
Open cut portions of the Brighton line will be served by dirigibles. :)
HEY! Quit knocking lighter-than-air! It runs faster than 20 mph!
So who's knocking it? :)
Natch, MTA would put out RFP's to bid for HYDROGEN bladder-based dirigibles. It's the 'publican thing to do. Heh.
Such as the Goodyear Blimp.:)
or the Hindenburg, or the Akron, etc..
wayne
Or the British R-100, which the Home Minister insisted be delivered before it was tested, WITH all his china on board, crashing it in three pieces in the woods before it even got through France. As usual, when there's an Empire, It Rules!!!
Yeah, I KNEW I wasn't going crazy! :)
It can't be true Sarge. I don't think my Republican friends would put down dough to help the West End and Brighton and leave my Sea Beach in the lurch. My buddy George wouldn't stand for it.
The next sound you hear will be Jersey swirling around the bowl.
Prediction - Lousenberg will serve less than 6 months before he gives up the position and the governor replaces him with a younger bundist.
Otherwise, to answer your question - Yes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Although I did not vote straight Republican. For me, the real bright spot is that in New York, the liberal party is no more.
>>Prediction - Lousenberg will serve less than 6 months before he gives up the position and the governor replaces him with a younger bundist.<<
You mean Torricelli will be forgiven and accepted back into their graces ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Wassa 'younger bundist?' The 'Bundt' would have all trainsets fully operational and on time.
>>Wassa 'younger bundist?' The 'Bundt' would have all trainsets fully operational and on time.<<
Nah.....'Bundt' is a cake.....ain't it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yah...Bundt is a piece of cake and Mussolini ran the trains on time. CI peter
Nah, Trafficante will be appointed. :)
Glad to have seen the 'Liberal Party' go since it was never truly 'liberal' in the literal sense anyway...
Too bad the Green Party had to go with it though...no more 'Grandpa' Al Lewis (sniff) :(
That's OK ... Al Lewis will probably be adopted by Judy Hopeless and forced into a primary with the Andrew. :)
Well I knew I could count on you Dude to back up my play, but if you have been reading the posts the sore loser Dems are foaming at the mouth.
Fred,
Actually I'm not foaming at the mouth, I'm sitting a state of deep depression. One of the really frightening things that keeps going through my head is "CHIEF JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS"! Let that one sink in for a few moments.
But I will say I feel no loss for the liberal party, there is a new truly progressive party that is picking up steam the Working Families Party. I've voted for all the Dems on that line since 2000.
In any event, those of you celebrating today, enjoy. But remember.."Be careful of what you wish for; you may just get it!" Just say CHIEF JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS a few times and see how that sounds.
Hey Piggo, good post. I am feeling good politically, yes, but, then again, I had to endure a lot of crap in 2000 over that disputed election. Still, you seem to be taking it well. Remember, though, this election saw many conservatives set aside in primaries for more moderate candidates, such as New Hampsshire where Bob Smith was defeated in the GOP Primary by the more moderate John Sununu Jr. Don't lose faith is us Republicans; there are a lot more progressives among us than you suspect.
I know in the past it has been evident that the GOP has been less than enamored with the subway systems in this country, although in some Republican controlled states there have been numerous light rail lines implemented with their blessing.
Republican states seem to be the leaders when it comes to developing light rail. Consider Texas, Utah, Arizona, and Colorado.
Everybody (Democrat or Republican) has to bring home the bacon (or corned beef, as the case may be). Suburban Republicans in NY were effective at getting capital funds for the commuter railroads, for example.
While I am not particularly enamored of some of GWB's domestic policy, I do respect a lot of what Pataki has accomplished in Albany. I want more money for subways, but that is just one issue. He actively supported and facilitated the creation of Sterling Forest State Park, the expansiuon of state parks on Long Island, and open space protection in the Adirondacks, for example. And he's a moderate on social issues, which I like.
There is, of course, still the issue of NYC's subsidizing the rest of the state, but, to some degree, any governor is going to have to walk a tightrope with that. Comes with the territory...
The problem with Pataki, as I see it, is that he is all too willing to kowtow to Joe Bruno, which takes away money *from all of us* to pour it into the black hole trailer park called Rensellaer County. Stopping that would be a good first step.
The distribution of budget money will probably never seem fair, folks upstate feel they're subsidizing NYC (not the reality, the perception) . However, an attempt to cut *truly wasteful* spending would at least provide the opportunity to meet needs, be it up or downstate. Budgets are finite, put the money to good use.
I do respect a lot of what Pataki has accomplished in Albany....And he's a moderate on social issues...
The first act that Pataki signed into law was the reinstitution of capital punishment. He then used executive authority to remove the Bronx District Attorney from a murder case because the DA refused to pursue capital punishment in the first murder case that came after bill became law.
His second action was to replace the existing Senate Majority Leader with somebody to his liking - Joseph Bruno. He had to replace the existing Majority Leader because Bruno would do what his predecessor refused to do: take the low road and far right path. This permits Pataki to appear to be moderate while Bruno does his dirty work.
Hey Steve, I don't think your fellow New Yorkers are buying your message because Big George won in a landslide Tuesday. He must be doing something right. Out here I voted for the Democrat in the gubernatorial election because, as much as a Republican that I am, I simply will not vote for a political baboon and that was what William "simple" Simon was to me.
"The first act that Pataki signed into law was the reinstitution of capital punishment. He then used executive authority to remove the Bronx District Attorney from a murder case because the DA refused to pursue capital punishment in the first murder case that came after bill became law. "
That's fine. I'm pro-capital punishment too, for selected crimes. But I'm also pro-choice (so is Pataki) and adhere to other tenets involving separatio of church and state, a line which he has not crossed.
"He then used executive authority to remove the Bronx District Attorney from a murder case because the DA refused to pursue capital punishment in the first murder case that came after bill became law."
The Bronx DA also made it clear he could not support the Death penalty law; so his removal from that case was entirely appropriate.
"His second action was to replace the existing Senate Majority Leader with somebody to his liking - Joseph Bruno. He had to replace the existing Majority Leader because Bruno would do what his predecessor refused to do: take the low road and far right path. This permits Pataki to appear to be moderate while Bruno does his dirty work. "
I was not aware that it is the Governor's right to do that. Would you kindly point out what clause in the New York State Constitution permits the Governor to exercise that power?
Just because a particular Republican does not seem to be a foaming right winger doesn't mean that a thinking person should vote for him. Your vote for paTURKEY only helps hin to get in a position to possibly replace the widely disliked dick cheney in '04 and help bush get reelected. NOT A GOOD MOVE!!! cheney, interestingly enough played a major role in solving the Union Pacific service meltdown of a few years ago. As VP of UPRR, he worked with senior executives of the other class 1 railroads to lease locomotives and borrow engineers. cheney really belongs back in the private sector where he excels but no CEO should be trusted with the presidency of vice presidency. Furthermore cheney has heart disease and if something happenned to bush, cheney's heart may not be able to take the stress of being suddenly thrust into the presidency.
While I disagree with you regarding Pataki (and please note that I do not agree with him on all issues), your comments on Dick Cheney hold much merit.
I see you've decided to deactivate your Killfile. Good. And Welcome back to Subtalk.
I was not aware that it is the Governor's right to do that. [replace the Senate Majority Leader] Would you kindly point out what clause in the New York State Constitution permits the Governor to exercise that power?
It's called politics. The Governor controls the purse strings and appointments. Any legislator of the Governor's party, is aware of this and acts accordingly. Members of the opposite party don't expect such favors and are more immune to such pressure.
There used to be a Democratic Assemblywoman in Nassau County. She had defeated one of Nassau County's GOP old boys. This infuriated the Republican organization. They resolved to defeat every measure that she sponsored when it came to the Senate, regardless of its merit or lack thereof. Also not in expressly the NYS Constitution but that's the way the game is played.
"It's called politics. The Governor controls the purse strings and appointments. Any legislator of the Governor's party, is aware of this and acts accordingly. Members of the opposite party don't expect such favors and are more immune to such pressure. "
That's a convenient excuse when you want to ignore everything else.
"There used to be a Democratic Assemblywoman in Nassau County. She had defeated one of Nassau County's GOP old boys. This infuriated the Republican organization. They resolved to defeat every measure that she sponsored when it came to the Senate, regardless of its merit or lack thereof. Also not in expressly the NYS Constitution but that's the way the game is played."
Maybe part of the problem was that she lorded it over Republicans and lacked social and political skills required to work collaboratively with the GOP elements in the legislature. It was her opportunity to lose and she lost it.
The first act that Pataki signed into law was the reinstitution of capital punishment.
Fullfilling a campaign promise and the will of the people.
He then used executive authority to remove the Bronx District Attorney from a murder case because the DA refused to pursue capital punishment in the first murder case that came after bill became law.
Wrong. He removed Johnson because he stated that he'd NEVER pursue capital punishment in any murder case, present or future.
Fullfilling a campaign promise and the will of the people...He removed Johnson because he stated that he'd NEVER pursue capital punishment in any murder case, present or future.
Mr. Johnson was elected to his post with the pledge not to seek the death penalty by the WILL OF THE PEOPLE within the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. Which people's will should count more?
The capital punishment law gives the DA discretion as to whether or not to seek the death penalty. Mr. Johnson acted completely within the statute. Mr. Johnson simply refused to participate in the charade that Mr. Morganthau does in refusing to seek the death penalty. You may recall that there was a media frenzy to see where the first death penalty case would be tried. The case in NY County came first. Morganthau, also an avowed capital punishment opponent, had enough clout to make his decision stick. Both men are fine DA's. You will have to look to Westchester County to find a DA who will seek the death penalty at every opportunity. But then again, she never looked into her husband's income tax statements.
I do not recall the specific details of the incident that brought the issue to a head but I remember that it involved the premeditated death of a police officer. I think the governor did the correct thing although the issue is moot. The death penalty will never be used in NY State in our time.
I do not recall the specific details of the incident that brought the issue to a head but I remember that it involved the premeditated death of a police officer.
It involved the death of a police officer. Whether or not it was premeditated was up to a jury to decide.
...the issue is moot.
The issue is moot because the prisoner was found dead in his jail cell. He reportedly hanged himself.
There never was a trial.
"The issue is moot because the prisoner was found dead in his jail cell. He reportedly hanged himself."
A fortuitous break for the good taxpayers of this wonderful state. Given what it costs for a capital punishment trial plus more than ten years on death row during appeals, the taxpayers really lucked out. I love a good bargain....
Mr. Johnson was elected to his post with the pledge not to seek the death penalty by the WILL OF THE PEOPLE within the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. Which people's will should count more?
You can't have a double standard for commiting murder. If I'm a killer, i'm automatically immune from capital punshment in the Bronx, but if I do the exact same thing in Queens, I'm not. Besides, Johnson was elected prior to Pataki signing capital punishment into law. It was hardly a campaign issue for him.
The capital punishment law gives the DA discretion as to whether or not to seek the death penalty.
In a case by case basis, pursuant to New York State law. Not on his own personal beliefs.
Mr. Johnson acted completely within the statute.
Not according to the New York State supreme court.
Mr. Johnson simply refused to participate in the charade that Mr. Morganthau does in refusing to seek the death penalty. You may recall that there was a media frenzy to see where the first death penalty case would be tried. The case in NY County came first. Morganthau, also an avowed capital punishment opponent, had enough clout to make his decision stick. Both men are fine DA's. You will have to look to Westchester County to find a DA who will seek the death penalty at every opportunity. But then again, she never looked into her husband's income tax statements.
You're right about the random use of the current statute. I support a change which would force DA's to seek the death penalty if cicumstances allow it.
So do I
I'm a killer, i'm automatically immune from capital punshment in the Bronx, but if I do the exact same thing in Queens, I'm not.
Such double standards already exist accross state and national boundaries so that is a non-issue.
I thought that drilling in our national parks is going to alieviate our dependance on forgien oil. Besides, traisit is bad for the automotive industry, the steel industry, auto parts, mechanics, etc, etc. How else are we going to get out of this recession? Get with the times guy. Transit is for loosers or poor minority scum and why should we help them? If you don't think so then you're not a Republican.
Despite what we have all been fed, transit is one of the worst polluters. Takes zillowatts to move ten empty fourty ton subway cars...the electricity is generated by engines fueled with fossil fuels. On the other hand, I get into my personal vehicle during early hours to be into my shop twenty minutes later...not dragging 400 tons of dead weight behind me. CI Peter
True, but what about the rest of the auto commuters (literally in the 10s of thousands)...put all you guys together and it creates a heck of alot of pollutants in the atmosphere...probably more so than a few empty subway cars...
>>True, but what about the rest of the auto commuters (literally in the 10s of thousands)...put all you guys together and it creates a heck of alot of pollutants in the atmosphere...probably more so than a few empty subway cars...<<
That old Chrysler you used to drive was a polluter, wasn't it ? Remember that BIG trunk, so big you could put an R-27 truck in it and close the lid ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Good point...Bill. BUT, I am NOT a daily driver...use the car for evening errands and trips on the weekend (like driving to Branford...heh).
>>Good point...Bill. BUT, I am NOT a daily driver...use the car for evening errands and trips on the weekend (like driving to Branford...heh).<<
I thought you sold the tank....er.....Chrysler !
I used to own a 1969 Dodge Polara back around 1971. That car had that same huge trunk. But I think your trunk was bigger than mine !! LOL
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, I sold the $$$ mobile...passed everything but a gas station ;)
I have another mopar -- '94 Dodge Spirit...the spirit being my '72 Dart that was used in the film, "Summer of Sam'. At least that was a gas saving ol' clunker...
Actually, rail travel is one of the most efficient forms of transportation. The main reason for this is that there is so little static and kenetic friction. The point of contact for each wheel is about the size of a dime. Electric subway trains don't burn fuel idling and the electricity that powers them comes from a point source that either does not polute (nuclear, hydro) or (usually) has pollution controls better than that of a typical car.
A a car subway train has about, let's say 40 motors of 120 hp. If you take the average ridership per train trip (which I think is a lot more than 40) you would need a 120 (at least) hp motor per car/SUV to make up for that trip.
Transit can be a polluter no doubt. Luckily, most new buses are running on cleaner gasses, and in some places like San Francisco and Cambridge Massachusetts, they have trackless trolleys in addition to busses. I realize that trains consume lots of power, but at least subways and light rail can use less power thans to the alternating current on newer trains. When all the R142s and R142As are running, the MTA will save $50 million per year on electrical bills. -Nick
the electricity is generated by engines fueled with fossil fuels.
Not always
IIRC, every megawatt of juice the MTA uses comes from Niagra Falls, which generates electricity with no fossil fuels burned.
Am I correct?
Nope ... the Niagara power portion stopped feeding NYC a couple of years ago. Enron bought the rights to it. Most of NYC's power comes from oil and gas burning plants up and down the Hudson as well as some Nuclear plants near Rochester. That's PASNY (Power Authority) power. Mostly fossil, some leaky nuke power from the Fitzpatrick plant and I believe one of the Indian Point kettles as well.
No. There isn't enough hydropower available to do that.
Fitzpatrick is only 400 megawatts, so its power stays upstate (butit is still part of the grid that can feed NY.
ENTERGY owns Fitzpatrick now, New York utilities were ORDERED by Paturkey to dispose of ALL of their assets. Entergy is wheeling most of that power WEST to Chicago now ... and with the collapse of Enron and the others like Enron, ALL construction has halted. Result? New York will be hard pressed to buy electricity next year should the economy come back. Paturkey PERFECTLY reproduced California's situation with the big difference being that demand fell by 20% so nobody's had a chance to notice it YET ...
ALL of the power plants in New York have been sold to outsiders though and they'll sell their watts for tots to whoever pays the MOST for them ... wherever.
Wow. You learn something new every day.
If so, mass transit users are also polluting the atmosphere as if they were driving a car.
Help yourself to a bowl of sour grapes Jersey. Your presumption is that Republicans are against rapid transit which means you don't know much about me. Check with the other Subtalkers who know me and they'll tell you I'm a little more than strange when it comes to my feeling for the subway. Besides, I am calling the RNC tomorrow and make my feelings known.
I don't care what you think, I care what the rubberstampers elected to the houses think. I could be, hypothetically, a democrat against abortion, for NMD, and for oil drilling, so long as we wipe out the maximum number of species that are cute and furry. But the fact that I am not in power, nor even anywhere near the dogma of my group means that I would have a better time trying to turn a SI ferry with a trolling motor.
"No transit, use a car, we paid for the roads, didn't we?" (walks away counting money from the oil cartels)
If you make less than 100k per annum then you are definitly not a Republican. You may vote that way, but you are not one of the people they truely represent. When you call them tomorrow I am sure that they will tell you that they are definitly for transit. Their definition might be vague and it might come with qualifiers, but they will tell you exactly what you want to hear. Not only that, they will be able to fund exactly what you want AND provide a tax cut to boot.
You can turn it into a game of Bingo. Fill out a 5x5 card with such words as "effective", "state matter", "alternatives", "looking into", "homeland security", "study", "trial", etc, and then see if you get a BINGO.
If you are going to vote Republican you might as well go all out and at least have fun. Drive that 12mpg SUV because its big and cool and fun. Chop down a tree because it makes a pleasing crashing sound. Send you kids to religious school so that they become more receptive to instruction. Move into the exurbs and buy an inexpensive 4000 sqft house on a huge lot that used to be a forest with a 2 hour commute, put up a fence and sit inside with the air conditioner blasting feeling supperior in the fact that you don't have to be near all that trash in the cities. And make sure you treat the rest of the world with contempt and scorn because after all, you're not them.
I hate hypocrites more than I hate Republicans. Don't vote Republican and then say you care. Just be honest and say "I care about me first and you second so there." Of course you might be one of the millions who were fooled by their campaign of lies, but I don't want to insult your intelligence.
I would typically be more tongue-in-cheek about how in 10 years we will have no privacy, no natural environment and no consumer protection, but those things will sort of affect me negitively so I can't really just laugh it off.
Sometimes Rush Limbaugh makes more sense that *that*!
Elias
Humorous post Sour Grapes Jersey, except where the word hypocrite came into play. I assure you that I'm not one at all, and anyone who knows me knows that. I also do not make over 100 grand a year. I'm a Republican because I used to be a Democrat and know how they really feel about the "great unwashed" They actually look down on middle and lower middle class people as being ignorant as to what"s "good for them." I heard all this crap when I was active in the Dimwit Party. I also like lower taxes, local control, the death penalty, balanced budgets and a very strong national defense. I believe strongly in family values and fidelity to my one and only. That is why I am a Republican and proud of it.
Something else. I always wondered why my wallet was getting lighter and lighter the harder I worked. I found out why. Your left leaning friends.
Balanced Budget, Georgie porgie got rid of that so his millionaire friends got a tax break, and we are now in the hole again
Thanks, Bob. Freddy boy tends for forget that the Repubs can't balance a friggin' dime!
BTW, apparently ONLY the Republicans are interested in a strong defense, are into family values, etc...what a load of hogwash....
Freddy boy knows that September 11, 2001 (remember that Dougie) changed a lot of things. We still had a surplus then, not much but a little. And remember the recession began eight months prior to Bush taking office. I just thought I would remind you of that. But it is good that you've entered the fray, and if you want to call me Freddy boy, go ahead. It makes me feel younger than I really am.
[It makes me feel younger than I really am.]
Then let me stop calling you Freddy boy...;)
Remember 9-11-01....who was in the White House at the time? And what is the connection between the Bush and Bin Laden famiilies? The whole clan in the White House has their hands bloodied with the Americans who died that day...as far as I am concerned.
We had a LOT of surplus before Shrub gave it away ... pity he didn't spend it on INTELLIGENCE and BORDER PATROL instead, but I guess it's too late now. But not to worry, we're deep in the hole now and we all know that wars are FREE, so let's have another tax cut party. But hey, the democratic strategy appears to have paid off BIGTIME. No democraps to blame for what happens in the next two years, hope y'all don't mind if we gloat just as loudly in two years when republicans are as easy to find as Arabs on Star Trek. :)
BUSH AND cHANEY ARE FRIENDY WITH THE sAUDI fAMILY, WHO SPONSOR THE WHADI FACTION OF ISLAM, WHO SPONSOR BEN LADIN.
SAUDI OIL. MOBILE-EXXON, SHELL-TEXACO CHEVRON- ALL PURCHASE MOST OF THEIR OIL FROM SAUDI ARABIA.
BP-HESS-SHEETZ-CITGO-ARCO-DO NOT BUY SAUDI OIL
If you got that from the Internet "CHAIN LETTER", best recheck the facts from the DOE newsletters ... google "oil companies middle east contracts" but rest assured, many of the companies cited in the chain letter are INNACURATE. I went looking for a quick list of things I could link to but came up short, I did it before and the listing was NOT accurate in terms of today. MOST of our "gasoline" now comes from Europe, and most of our raw oil comes from RUSSIA, IRAQ and NIGERIA. All I can offer is the following, and due to my LIMITED time, is probably immaterial ... check the USDOE oil import lists if you have time, and you'll learn what BULLSHIRT that internet listing of bad boys truly is. The very companies endorsed are the BIGGEST towelhead importers, it's all a smokescreen just like the mushroom food we got for the most recent election ...
Try this:
Oil Companies in the Gulf
Extra credit:
Pipe dreams: How oil fuels the Bush administration "war on ...
First, don't call me liberal. I am an open minded economic rational darwinist. I don't think its "liberal" to be for things like...air and against things like...oppression. I attend a very activist school and I frequently have to be the voice of reason in the face of all the hippie activist freaks here.
I believe strongly in family values and fidelity to my one and only. That is why I am a Republican and proud of it.
So you believe in legislating morality? Let's break out the scarlet letters then!
BTW, let's see if you can give a good definition of "family values". That is a popular Republican buzz word that like most of their buzz words has no real meaning so that depending on the situation is can mean basically whatever they want it to.
Here's a news flash. A person's character is what mostly defines their Family Life. Not any sort of law. Laws will lead to more problems than they fix.
"BTW, let's see if you can give a good definition of "family values". That is a popular Republican buzz word that like most of their buzz words has no real meaning so that depending on the situation is can mean basically whatever they want it to."
The same is true for such terms as "judicial activism," "environmental activist," and many others. Both Republicans and Democrats (and many others) suffer from this.
Very astute post.
I define the latter when you attend a protest and wave a sign. I don't even know what the first term is.
LOL!
"I frequently have to be the voice of reason "
Gee, Mikey, that wasn't self-serving at all. I bet your classmates are glad to have you there to keep them on the straight and narrow.
Hey Dude, he sounds like an elitist to me. What do you think?
Fred - what's the point. Dave'll just delete it.
I believe strongly in family values and fidelity to my one and only.
You might belive in good family values, but family values is usually a euphemism for oppression of women by their husbands and of children by their parents.
It was "family values" that prevented the passage of the equal rights amendment.
I'm not saying that having a nice family with fidelitous partners and children is wrong, just that the crowd that calls itself for "family values" is really for "patriarchal dominance"
And even if women are part of it, it's always anti-youth.
No sir Pig, you are wrong on this. A wife is an equal partner and a life companion. To me a man is not whole without a woman at his side, and if it happens to be the right woman a man has 90% of his world safely secured. I sort of copied that last statement from something Truman said once. But I believe it whole heartedly.
You should read before you respond.
You might believe that I am wrong, but where does the rest of your post counter what I said?
being glad of being republican today? HELL NO!!! NEVA THAT!!! very disappointed that he won again. looks like New York City will get the shitty end of the stick again. cut here there everywhere, no money for our city agencies. the income that NYC produces is taken by Albany, distributed to the surbubs and none for the 5 boroughs. again, we (new york city) who produce bigger share of the states income than the rest of the state will not get anything to show for it. sick and sad. makes me want to move to canada where things are fair and easy but i can't because i am American.
makes me want to move to canada where things are fair and easy but i can't because i am American.
Last I checked, the United States has open exit borders and Canada has the most liberal immigration policy in the world.
Go ahead.
so the government says but society pressures up there are highly intolerable
I'd offer you some sour grapes but Jersey Mike and Frisco Vartanoff has consumed them all. Don't lose faith my man, things willwork out better down the road. We Gopers are NOT anti-transit, and, besides, Rudy was Mayor and things got much better in transit on his watch.
God No, Now all the tax cuts will go to the Top 2 pct, George will get his little war with Iraq, which his father should have done 12 years ago. More Social Programs will be cut, and Social Security will go the way of the down stock exchange
Don't bet on George will get his little war with Iraq. Right now our friends all over the world are telling him "Don't think you'll have our support on Iraq." This includes Canada, Germany, Mexico and others. Also, the administration is now talking an Iraq invasion in seven or eight months, and as we all know, a lot can happen, good or bad in seven or eight months.
Hussein, who is no dummy, will figure out a way to let the UN inspectors look everywhere they want to and not loose face. He's already started to look a litle moderate, by releasing some of the oppenents he didn't kill.
Besides, the doom sayers forget a fact of history: Every time the sitting President's party takes control of Congress in the mid-term elections, he looses his re-election bid. This does not respect party lines, either. It's happened to Democrats and Republicans.
Well don't hold your breath expecting it to happen in 2004. Big Georgie is going to get his second helping and we may even expand our holdings in Congress. Brave talk, eh? Well I'm saying all this with my fingers crossed.
As I'm a student of history, and I've seen it happen at least twice, but I'll wait for 2004. A lot is going to happen in the next 24 months, and my chrystal ball is as fuzzy as yours.
I didn't vote for Bush in 2000, as I considered him as the lesser of the two, although I wasn't wild about Al either.
I'm not totally comfortable with the recent trend of electing state governors to the Presidency. We've done it twice, and I don't think the electorate made a wise choice either in 1992 or 2000. A governor has to concern himself with the needs of his state, not with decisions that might affect the entire country.
I did take note that Georgie took most of his cabinet from Daddy's adminsitration. This could have been either a wise choice or a "cover my butt 'cause there aren't a lot of people my age that have what I need" choice.
The real sad thing is that the people who would be the best for the country tend not to run due to the constant effort of the media to dish the dirt on any and all who run. They don't want to put their families throught it.
Well, we can always have a recession get worse
And let's face it, "Bushvilles" just ain't got the "click" of "Hoovervilles" ... how 'bout you and I do a radio show and skroo Fred? hahahahaha. Gotta be better than listening to that gasbag Novak. :)
Hell I agree, Bob and Fred over Novak and Shields. Now if we could only get the newtworks or Fox to agree, think of all the entertainment we could have berating each other over the airwaves. They'd never know for a second that we are close friends.
I expect this recession to last right through the 2004 election. Recessions feed upon themselves as if you don't have a job you can't increase spending so no new jobs are created.
Giving a tax cut to the top %5 isn't going to stimulate enough spending. Regan tried this trickle down theory in the 1980's and it clearly didn't work. At the very least the target %5 will spend a a much smaller proportion of their income on local goods and services.
Recessions require government action or some sort of mass hypnosis to solve. Several good ideas that have worked elsewhere in the world is increased government consumption, full employment programmed or targeted micro and macro lending programmes to small and really small bussinesses (less than 100 employees). Large multi-national firms can usually take care of themselves, they just typically have the money to amplify their whining so that they get recovery money they really don't need..
I expect this recession to last right through the 2004 election. Recessions feed upon themselves as if you don't have a job you can't increase spending so no new jobs are created.
Recessions require government action or some sort of mass hypnosis to solve. Several good ideas that have worked elsewhere in the world is increased government consumption, full employment programmed or targeted micro and macro lending programmes to small and really small bussinesses (less than 100 employees).
Government action is usually of limited success in getting the economy out of recessions. What cures recessions is the gradual turning of the business cycle, as the excesses that caused them in the first place are slowly worked out. Our present economy will improve as the effects of the capital overinvestment of the 1990's lessens. There isn't really much that government policy can do, except at the fringes.
One important part though - DEFICITS ... if the GOVERNMENT is borrowing all the money ("borrow and spend" vs. "tax and spend") then there ISN'T money available for business to turn the economy around. That's where we are now. The Fed rate is SO low that banks LOSE money by loaning it out. Businesses CANNOT get financing right now to dig us out of this.
Remember when the republicans were howling about the deficit and all the damage it was doing? Whoops.
Honey, you forget...the republicans *caused* the deficits of the 80s. First they cut taxes, then increase defense spending,(leaving little if anything for transit-BTW, wasn't most of the recent work done in the past 10 years?) and voila!
Hey wait a minute....sounds a *LOT* like right now, eh?
The bussiness cycle is something that needs to be eliminated. Boom, bust, boom, bust is the worst of all possible situations. The government needs to learn into the wind and level out the manic behavior. When things try to boom you need to run a surplus, when things try to bust you need to run a deficit. In the end we'll get our nice 3-5% annual growth, with no peridoic unemployment crisis that ruines working people's life every 10 years or so.
The bussiness cycle is something that needs to be eliminated. Boom, bust, boom, bust is the worst of all possible situations. The government needs to learn into the wind and level out the manic behavior. When things try to boom you need to run a surplus, when things try to bust you need to run a deficit. In the end we'll get our nice 3-5% annual growth, with no peridoic unemployment crisis that ruines working people's life every 10 years or so.
Eliminating the business cycle would be nice but certainly doesn't seem possible. I suspect the reasons behind its persistence have to do more with psychology than with economics. It is a natural human tendency, both on a macro and micro level, to want to enjoy the good times even though that sort of behavoir may, mainly through overinvestment and excessive indebtedness, make a slump inevitable. In other words, if we spend less when we have money in our pockets, we won't have the same sort of booms but also won't have the same sort of busts. People don't act that way in real life, of course, and therefore the business cycle is here to stay.
Well booms need not be totally eliminated. If productivity increased or inputs become cheaper, the economy will re-adjust to a new level of base wealth. THe problem is the sort of overshooting we saw over here in the 90's and in Japan in the 80's or here in the 20's or here in the 60's, you get the picture.
The way to limit this overshooting is more taxes specifically designed to take $ out of circulation, either into a rainy day fund or to repay past debt. When the economy starts to bust this tax money is released back into the economy in the form of government spending. Its just like a water resevior evening out the flood cycles of major rivers.
Mike, read about John Maynard Keynes. His economic theories are similar to yours.
Giving a tax cut to the top %5 isn't going to stimulate enough spending. Regan tried this trickle down theory in the 1980's and it clearly didn't work. At the very least the target %5 will spend a a much smaller proportion of their income on local goods and services.
I agree with you. that money never 'trickled-down' it was traded back and forth on the stock market, running the dow up Ponzi-like until it crashed.
But *before* it crashed, *somebody* had that money in thier hot little hand. Certain CEOs and CFOs need to go directly to jail... do not pass GO, do not collect $200.
**********************
Recessions require government action or some sort of mass hypnosis to solve.
Most usually, this means a WAR!
Oh? Ok.... we are doing that. I guess everything will be ok in the end.
Well, at least so if you are among the survivers.
Elias
Boy oh boy, I knew that sooner or later you would be coming out of your hole to add your worthless two cents to this set-to, but hell come on in because there's always room for one more.
How did you like the election Bobby? I kind of loved it. Made me feel exuberant all over. Did you notice your party didn't even put up a candidate against Senator Warner in Virginia? They knew better and what to expect if they did.
I did not even vote, here we had Warner Running Unopposed, and the local Facist, Oops Right Wing Congressmen was also unopposed. BUT YOU DID VOTE FOR A DEMOCRATIC
I did vote for Gray Davis for Governor and Bill Lockyer for Attorney General. Yes, I promised myself that I would vote for Davis because of what he did for teachers and for their retirement. But now we are going to do everything we can to get Arnold Schwarzenegger to run for governor in 2006, and when he does the Republicans in California will return to power. Make book on it.
I can't believe what you just said!? Are you actually admitting that the Republican strategy is instead of running qualified canidates, you just run highly recognizable, media whore celebrities that people will be sure to vote for? Canidates with no inate governing or leadership skills of their own who only act as mouthpieces for NON-ELECTED interests standing behind the curtain?
You know that if Kenedy has listened to his advisors in 1962 the world would be a smoking nuclear crater right about now. Thank god we had someone in charge who could think for themself.
Arnold has been in the forefront on programs for the disadvantaged for years, and has put his own money where his mouth is. He engineered Prop 49 out here, which mandates a large amount of state money for after school programs. He is very popular in minority communities because he is a very compassionate person, and yes, we want to win and he can and will win---if he runs. Reagan had no political experience either but he turned out to be a decent governor and an outstanding President.
["Reagan had no political experience either but he turned out to be a decent governor and an outstanding President"]
Maybe outstanding until he fired the air traffic controllers. As far as I'm concerned he became an asshole that day and I lost all respect for him!!! (and this from someone who was once the head of a union, the Screen Actor's Guild)
Rudy did declare City Hall Loop off limits to subway customers.
That's it Colorado, jump on the bandwagon after the rest of us have made the tough journey. I will give this to you. You kept Allard in the Senate and that helped a lot. I heard Strickland was kind of a boob anyway.
well, Fred, you are correct on one count. Some far right theorists support mass transit in otder to "return" women to their "prescribed roles" as homemakers. See the Free Congress Foundation site article why Conservatives should support transit.
'Course if the vast bulk of couples wish a single wage earner, they will need to reverse the declining standard of living trends. As to other issues, the GOP in general while trumpeting "free enterprise" and personal "freedoms" is in the forfront of intrusive government snooping against dissenters, the destruction of 'habeas corpus' rights ,which date back to the Magna Carta, ending reproductive freedom, and relieving capitalist crooks such as Enron of government oversight. (Cal me when a corporate crook does hard time like a low level drug dealer). The good news is there wil be more elections, unlike some other places, so the arguments will continue.
How do you like your new nickname Frisco Vartanoff? Well if you don't I will give you another one. Some of the things you said have merit, but let me ask you something. Didn't a one family earning once prove to be adequate for a decent living? Yes it did. In 1946 the workers toiled until January 21 for the government. The rest was theirs. By 1994 the workers were toiling until the middle of May for Uncle Sam? Now let me ask you who controlled the purse strings during most of that time. Your right, the Democrat Party. Except for 1947-48 and 1953-54, your party was in complete control of Congress and what we saw were our taxes going through the roof until Reagan alleviated somewhat. Finally in '94 the people got smart and sent the Democrats home. But the taxing damage had been done. That's why it is so rough on people today. HIGH TAXES.
What a load of nonsense...
Do you live in LA? The land where it takes half an hour for a police officer to respond to an urgent call, where there is no such thing as a CPOP and no Compstat, where crime is significantly higher per capita than in NY and where mass transit is still a weakling?
You're right, Fred. Nothing like low taxes.
Nonsense? My facts are straight from the Congressional Record of 1994. That was why the Contract With America was signed by so many Republican office holders, an attempt to alter the mind boggling and crippling taxes your boys heaped on the American people. As for LA we don't have low taxes. We play almost as much as New Yorkers and our state income tax is oppressive as hell. That is why so many older Californians leave the state for Nevada, Arizona, Idaho and Texas, states that do not have an income tax.
"We play almost as much as New Yorkers and our state income tax is oppressive as hell. That is why so many older Californians leave the state for Nevada, Arizona, Idaho and Texas, states that do not have an income tax. "
And yet the LAPD has an authorized strength which is 50% of where it should be on a per capita basis...
We get high taxes, because the ultra rich and big corps have many loopholes, and who supports this the Republicans. Let us see in the next 2 years what the Republicans do about health care, medi-care, ssi prescriptions for the old. Fred, you have a good Retirement Plan, because you were a school teacher, but millions of us do not, and every penny helps.
Until George Bush I was President, it was against the law for Pharacutical companies to advertise to the general public. Now they urge people to tell their doctors about new meds, that cost up to 3-4 dollars a pill, when one of their older generics at 15 cents a pill will do.
We pay the highest Rx costs in the world, because the Republican Congress received over 500 million dollars in campaign money from the drug companies over the past 10 years, not to regulate.
Did you know, that there are senior bus tours to Canada from various places to buy medicine there, because people can not afford it, and of course there are the bean counters in Insurance Companies who tell doctors how to treat their patients.
Then the banks. Just drive down Wilshire Blvd, from LA to Westwood, and see who have the giggest buildings. Banks and Insurance Companies, all support Republicans and the Republicans are the party of business, and the Demos the Working people. The hell with Liberal, Moderate and Conserative. Just labels their comitition give them
Even though I voted for Davis, he certainly was in league with those banks and insurance companies you lampoon. Otherwise he never would have been able to raise #70 million dollars for his re-election campaign. Face it, the Dems are also with their fingers in the corporate pie.
Taxes ARE NOT HIGH! My grandfather in 1955 paid a marginal tax on a 50,000 bonus of 90% In 1980 they passed a LAW that there no Federal tax should exceed 50% on the dollar due to MANY taxes that were ABOVE 50% at the time. So looking at the historical perspective, the current trend in Europe and Canada and given that the Government would maximize its tax revenue at a rate of something around %57, taxes are incredibly low. They are even lower for most of the population.
The WW2 to 1980 taxes were to pay for the Cold War. If you are enjoying the absence of Global Communism right now your taxes paid for it. All Regan did is put the Cold War on our National Credit Card instead of billing it directly to the people. We are still carrying around a several trillion dollar balance and it needs to be paid off.
Your fixation on taxes if typical of Republican "me first" greed. You think of your own wallet without thinking of what is best of society. And no, what is best for the indivudual is NOT what is best for the group. That's elementary game theory as made popular in the 2001 Best Picture "A Beautiful Mind".
And now you're passing yourself off as a psychologist trying to read people's minds and attempting to evaluate what motivates us. I'd like to know if you have a full time job. Doesn't sound that way, otherwise you would know the tax burden on the middle class is preventing millions of people of:
1. Trying to save money to buy a house
2. Attempting to put something away for their kids to go to college which is becoming more arduous with each passing year because of the skyrocketing increase in college tuition.
3. Trying to sock some money away for a rainy day and for their retirement.
Doing these things can get to be so draining on the human body that when it comes time to get their half-ass social security checks they're not eligible for them because they are dead early in life, or
they're too exhausted to enjoy what little the government allocates to them.
Capice??
They'll be elections yes, but the GOP will just buy them like usual and if the outcome is ever in doubt more opposition canidates will die is suspicious accidents.
Aw come on, what are you implying? That the Republicans sabotaged the planes of Mel Carnahan and Paul Wellstone? That's a new low Jersey. Hell even BMT Doug, who loves to use me as a foil, doesn't believe such crap as that.
Who had the MOST to gain from their deaths? I will NEVER put it past any human being to do what they think is in his or her best interest.
Just try to think about it out of context. A cage rattling opposition leader dies just 7 days before an extremely close election in a tragic accident of unknown cause, which pretty much seals the fate of the race. If this was like Russia or China the first think you would think would be some sort of foul play.
Now tell me why you think that the ruling party in this country would not ever do such a thing to maintain their grip on power. And I don't want to hear something like "they just woudln't" or "we're better than that" because frankly we aren't.
This election was worth billions of dollars to various interested parties. With that much money at stake the effort of an assination would be miniscule. Do you think it would be very hard for the Government of the United States of America to get away with killing someone and passing it off as an accident? There existed motive and oppurtunity and although there will never be any direct evidence it would not surprise me if someone connected with the organization in power was responsible for their amazing little turn of fortune there.
I had always had faith in America because at least opposition members weren't dying in tragic accidents, now I don't know any more.
When those in power recieve a tremendious political gain from the well timed and tragically accidental death of an opponent you're damn right I am going to be suspicious.
yes it got better but not to work of the governor or the mayor. remember how they were threatening to "F" up the system back in 1993
I'm right with you, Fred! That sounds like a good idea to call the RNC and ask them about their plans for transit. Even though I am a conservative, obviously I am pro-transit...and I'm sure there are a few in Washington as well (even if they are not buffs). -Nick
Even though I am a conservative, obviously I am pro-transit
Those two are mutually exclusive. As a conservitive you must oppose state run bussinesses so therefore if transit was a reasonable option then some private firm would right not be building lines and running trains. Because they don't it is obviously un-necessary government waste.
PLEASE don't confuse these right wing moron dittohead Talibanners with "conservatives" ... True conservatives (not seen since the 60's) believe in government doing those things that are NOT practical for the people to accomplish (military, transportation across state lines, public health, natural resources, and protection against thugs both criminal and corporate) themselves or are not practical in scale for the private sector to accomplish. Conservatives believe that people should be provided with the tools to make their own way and when they're unable to, provide the means for them to survive. But above all else, Conservatives believe in INDIVIDUAL freedom free of government intrusion so long as you don't harm others.
Sorta flies in the face of the mentality these days where government's purpose is to check your pants and redistribute your wealth to those who already have more than enough.
That's not a conservitive, that's a Libritarian. Conservatives prefer the status quo that is most advantageous to them. Conservitive politics have brought us such memorable things as slavery, segrigation, robber barrons and a great depression.
And what have Liberals brought us? Clean cities? Safe Streets? Well run schools? Racial harmony? High morale? I think all those grapes you ate have given you a bad case of gas. Quick, get the bicarb.
What is a Liberal?
That's easy Bob. A liberal is one who:
1. Talks equality and lives in a gated commmunity.
2. Talks up integration of public schools and sends his kids to exclusive private schools.
3. A liberal is one who believes if you throw money at something, even if it hasn't worked before and before, it will work now. The only caveat is that it's our money not theirs. They are usually very stingy with their own. Remember Gore's charitable contributions? Disgusting.
4. A liberal is one who blames the United States for all of the world's ills.
5. A liberal is one who never wants to use military force because they believe like Phil Donahue that we can get a dialogue with terrorists. Count Fartin' Martin Sheen in with that sick group.
Do you know what a liberal is now?
That's not a liberal, Fred. That's just a hypocrite.
Of course, by your standards, one could say a conservative:
1) Wants everybody ELSE to keep zippers zipped but has trouble getting the blonde kneeling in front of him to close his properly.
2) Wants the government to monitor people's bedrooms but removes the camera from his own bedroom due to "national security" reasons
3) Wants to cut taxes, but, just to make sure, gets together with an Arthur Anderson professional for his own finances
4) Thinks that a handgun is really an extension of his p---s and therefore registering it would essentially mean castration and impotence.
5) Thinks Freedom of Religion means everyone is free to be required to go to church on Sunday
OK! If that is your opinion and you really believe it, then fine. You are entitled to your point of view. Realistically, though, I think you don't really believe all the things you said while I do. Maybe I'm wrong.
I believe that your caricature of "liberals" deserved a companion caricature of "conservatives."
And thanks to Joe De Rosier of the Albany Times Union ...
Very cute!
The first two examples can also apply to conservatives....just kicked ya self in the nads ol' boy...
Uh, most retired U.S. Generals are in group #5 BTW, whether they be liberal or conservative....look at Colin Powelll...he was for negotiations INITIALLY.
At least Martin Sheen gets off his --s and does something (even if you my not agree with it)...what have you done lately?
Well I announced at an alumni luncheon yesterday that I am running for our local school board next spring, and I called the RNC today to urge them to think positively in the coming months to endorse support for public rapid transit. Is that ok for a start?
Not bad...
AW GEEZ ... STOP sucking up, ereection is over. "Your call is important to us, press 1 to deduct cash from your debit card, press 2 to favor mass transit, press 3 to deduct cash from your debit card ..." Bingbong asked the boy a question and he pulled a Karl Rove ... what did the GOP promise there? "Your call is important to us, press 1 to deduct cash ... click" Moo. :)
For Unca Fred - bustini, bustini.
That is a good thing you did there, Fred.
Father Selkirk to the rescue with an answer to that pesky question (Since Professor Irwin Corey is on a bender, I'll fill in) ...
Question:
You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children.
Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner
and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a .357
Magnum and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches
you and your family. What do you do?
Liberal Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look
poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to
attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his
hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be
happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he
just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could
my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I
need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a
conclusion.
Conservative Answer:
Shoot the son of a b____Then take your family to a baseball game, eat some
hot dogs with apple pie, sing the national anthem, go to church and praise
the Lord for one more day of freedom.
Yep, that's right and that could be my family at a Mets game after that ordeal. If my family was threatened by a knife wielding psycho I would send him post haste to meet his maker.
You've switched the two around, it's the conservative who wouldn't even carry the gun because only KINGS with their divine right have the right to carry weapons and protect his life, while the liberal believes in the liberty to protect himself and own firearms.
The founding fathers were liberals.
I would do the second one, except for the part about church and god. I would however be thankful for another day of LIBERty.
No, some sort of hippie passifist freak (or maybe Hamlet) would do the first option.
Just like not all Republcians are Christianbans, not all Liberals are hippie looser freaks.
I'll throw out that differance is that Conservitives tend to put their own utility before that of the group's aggrigate utility and Liberals do the reverse. I.E. Conservitives want their tax money back first and will then worry about the rest of society and Liberals will pay to improve society in ways that will hopefully improve their own situation later.
"Conservitive politics have brought us such memorable things as slavery, segrigation, robber barrons and a great depression."
Allright, Mike...I think it's time you took a little break from the computer, huh? Once again you've put your foot in your mouth, I bet you can smell the leather. -Nick
"That's not a conservitive, that's a Libritarian"
You mean Libertarians?
Libritarians are a secret sect which believe in the daily consumption of Librium for good mental health.
:0)
Heh. It didn't work. The "Libertarian party" is just another Lynodon LaRouche scam since drug-running for the Queen didn't work out as well as he'd planned. :)
Nope, I *know* what libertarianism was, I actually JOINEd the party for a year until the smell became overwhelming. Libertarians believe in ANARCHY ... anyone crosses your propertly line, SHOOT'EM. TRUE conservatives believe that everybody should get an education (and PAY for it) so that they CAN become self-sufficient. For those who can't, conservatives believe in helping those unable to help themselves, however the LAZY could use a kick in the pants. BIG difference.
Conservatives believe that there's things that government HAS to do because it's not practical for individuals or the private sector to do so on the necessary scale. Only problem is there AREN'T any conservatives anymore. What you have now is right wing morons guided by Saint Rush, Cal Thomas, Ralph Reed and Jerry Fallwell whose solution to everything is to ship the poor off to the Hormel meatpacking plant to make yummy lunch meats and to emulate the Taliban domestically. If someone somewhere is having fun, let's STOP it. :(
You could bring me back into the Republican Party with TRUE conservatives like that.
One other point I forgot to mention about "old time conservatism" is "pay as you go" rather than running up deficits. Here in New York, there was nothing really on the national level to vote for, and upstate the DEMOCRATS are closest to "true conservative" and the repubs are the "drunken sailor borrow and spenders" with the loansharks at the door with Louisville Sluggers.
Speaking of which, now that it's over and the Division of the Budget is trying to make up a $12 BILLION (prior to the elections, it was only $4 Billion) there's talk of MAJOR hikes in car registration, surcharges on utility bills and the best yet to come, deciding on a 7% or 8% STATE portion of sales tax. This would bring the sales tax upstate to 10% and 11% (where counties do 4% typically) and 12% in New York City. There's also talk of cutting Transportation Authorities completely loose, having to generate 100% of revenue from the farebox.
We'll know what they've finally decided on the week following the "State of the State" speech in January. Drink up, Shriners ...
"$12 BILLION (prior to the elections, it was only $4 Billion) there's talk of MAJOR hikes in car registration, surcharges on utility bills and the best yet to come, deciding on a 7% or 8% STATE portion of sales tax. This would bring the sales tax upstate to 10% and 11% (where counties do 4% typically) and 12% in New York City. There's also talk of cutting Transportation Authorities completely loose, having to generate 100% of revenue from the farebox".
Typical Trickle down deficit. Republicans hate the Federal income tax most of all because it is somewhat progressive. They favor Sales taxes because those taxes are regressive (poorer taxpayers pay a proportionately larger share of their incomes) and better still, state programs are terminated,regardless of their necessity and the real bad guy (bush) gets to avoid blame. That's why I wouldn't vote for ANY Republican even if he floated down from the sky on a little cloud.
Should be amusing times ahead. Fortunately, the democraps are COMPLETELY out of the way now, so even Rush won't be able to point the finger elsewhere. What a BRILLIANT strategy for 2004, leaving the building entirely. Won't be Bubba's fault anymore. :)
The problem is, those aren't conservatives.
However, that is the way the Republican party used to be, with the Democrats being the party of oppression.
Conservative politics have brought us nothing, since a true conservative wants to CONSERVE the status quo that was brought on by the previous generation.
Liberal comes from the Latin word liber, meaning free. Liberals therefore concern themselves primarily with freeing the population from the wretched shackles imposed upon them by kings, noblemen and clergy.
HOWEVER at some point people who call themselves liberal decided to start doing things like controlling the economy and reining back free capitalism (something that was previously the province of conservatives).
Libertarian comes from the word liberty, which is also based on liber. Libertarians are also sometimes known as classical liberals, in that they are for freedom for every section of society.
Liberals are for LIBERTY, EQUALITY AND FRATERNITY.
Conservatives are for keeping the third estate oppressed.
The terms liberal and conservative as they are applied today have, for the most part, little or nothing to do with their original meanings, and I am absolutely certain that in another century, the meanings will change again.
You could be right Pig. Very observant on your part. Remember, the Republican Party was once the liberal party of free territories, free labor and Union and emancipation, while the Democrats were the conservative party of of status quo, slavery and rebellion. Things have changed as far as those two entities are concerned.
Glad to see that you know so much about so many things. Ever think about becoming a genius?
I don t like paying taxes either, but taxes should be fair. Why now that he has a majority, try to plass a flat tax, so everyone pays a equal share.
because a "flat tax" is absolutely discriminatory against the lower wage earners. 'Coure if you are part of the overpaid rich, its a great deal shifting even more of the costs ofour meager public services to the working classes.
If you read Dave's post Bob, there you have it. Frisco Dave is a Dem and his feelings are the feelings for the Dimwitocrat heirarchy.
Pardon me for being a little remiss in my last post. How are you feeling? Did you finally shake that stuff you had? I am fighting a little cold and I'm going in for flu shot tomorrow.
A flat tax? Hey, I'm for that, too. However, your party is not.
It was brought up during the Actor s administration, and he was against it
The problem with a flat tax is an economic principle called Decreasing Marginal Utility. Someone with only $100 will value a single dollar more than someone with $1000. So with a flat tax, those with more money are BURDENED less than those with less money.
There is also a problem with something called fixed costs. Every human has certain fixed costs. We need to eat and live somewhere and probably some other basic things. For someone with less $, fixed costs might take up 70% or more of their income. For someone with more $ the fixed costs might take up only %5 of their income. Asuming the popular 20% flat tax (which would RASIE the poor's marginal rate BTW) a poor person will then only have 10% disposable income from which to do things like educate themselves or maybe enjoy some recreational time or invest in some sort of capital enterprize (like stock or a bussiness venture). A rich person would have 75% of thie income be disposable. Again the rich are BURDENED less than the poor.
We are all citizens and thusly we should bare an equal burden.
The last arguement that can be made against a flat tax is that who has more to loose if the system breaks down. Those with more to loose if the country suddenly went kaa kaa should pay more to prevent that from happening. Either in the context of National Defence or the prevention of internal Revolutions.
An excellent explanation of the flat tax. Well argued. Bravo!
"We are all citizens and thusly we should bare an equal burden."
If that were the case, women would go topless at the beach routinely. :0)
Technically, in NY, that's legal. But you wouldn't be able to control yourself, and it would start a riot or something. Sorry.... :o)
You're thinking of the NYS Court of Appeals in the Santorelli case where it was done for political purposes in a public park as an act of protest. I wonder what John Ashcroft would do. Oh wait, he IS a boob. Geez, he's SAFE here then. :)
"If that were the case, women would go topless at the beach routinely. :0)"
You mean they don't where you are? Out here, just a few miles south of sunny Bay Shore, the frequently go topless - and bottomless too. So while some spend subtalkers their Saturdays genuflecting in front of kronenburgers R-9 utility shed, I'll be working on my tan.
Mikey, go sit in the corner until we call you! Where do you get your inane wisdom? "Most" of the managers at NYCT are pro-transit and very few vote democratic.
And Mikey, if you do what Train Dude says and behave yourself I will personally give you another bowl of sour grapes.
You'd have a point if the Republicans actually represented the people who voted for them.
Answer the following two questions for me.
Urban areas that require the most transit and usually Democratic. Why would Republicans want to do things for people who don't vote for them?
Transit would reduce the number of car sales and gasoline consumption. If the automotive industry and oil industry are some of your largest supporters why would you support transit?
Mike, let's assume for a moment that you are correct about Republicans not doing anything for people who don't vote for them. Well then why indeed would they support mass transit? As the myth goes, the Republicans are the bankers, the brokers and the captains of industry. Thus the Republicans would need to provide a cost effective means for transporting labor from their homes to the worksite so the republican bankers, the brokers and the captains of industry can continue to get richer.
Of course this is not reflective of John Corzine and the Kennedies and other rich Democrats who transport their workforce by limosine.
Thus the Republicans would need to provide a cost effective means for transporting labor from their homes to the worksite so the republican bankers, the brokers and the captains of industry can continue to get richer.
Some acceptable counter solutions would be to simply have a corporate office park out in the suburbs. Like Microsoft out in Redmond Washington. Or just keep building new roads Robert Mosses style.
New road construction not only provides construction job AND promotes the use of cars/gasoline, but in the current American mindset SUVing yourself to work is much more popular than transit. I can't speak for NYC, but in Philly 25% of people use publicly accessable transport to get to work. That means 75% don't and a new road will please more of the crutial, wealthy suburban vote than a new rail line will.
Just like prisons, roads are an incredible $ generator for thrid party bussinesses. More cars, more gas, more service stations, more repair shoppes, more after market parts and more pay and park joints. The only people who don't seem to benefit from driving are, well, drivers, but drivers aren't big bussiness and don't tell me that Republicans aren't a friend to bussiness.
All transit provides is a boost to some forgien where the cars are built and a host of newsstand and restaurant operators. It also does things like clean the air and save consumers $ and reduce our dependance on terrorist states for their black drug, but that's not really good for bussiness.
Someone needs to stand up and say that it is NOT a right for Americans to convey themselves to their destination in their climate controled, inefficient, pollutting, isolation-mobiles. At least with Democrats the chance of that is non-zero.
The difficulty with having a serious conversation with you, Mike, is that you never stay on topic. You claim that Republicans do not support mass transportation. I tell you you are wrong and give you an absurd exaggeration to prove the point. You just keep rambling with your liberal BS without any substantitive argument. Now as to your current argument - perhaps you wouldn't mind an office complex or industrial park in your backyard. I pay much in taxes not to live with that. Perhaps when you start paying instead of sponging, you'll appreciate the difference.
I'll make it simple for you.
Republicans support bussiness, specifically big bussiness.
Automobiles are an extremely expensive form of transportation requiring all sorts of support infrastructure, most of which is provided by big bussinesses.
If more people drive, more money flows into these big automobile support bussiness.
Big automobile support bussiness contribute large amounts to Republicans.
Wealthy suburbanites are typically Republican.
The vast majority of them do not use transit.
Rural voters are typically Republican.
Rural voters are not served by transit.
By expanding roads the Republicans please more of their core voters and core contributers.
Did I get anything wrong here?
By following the logical progression here you can see that transit will take a back seat to roads.
First of all, mikey, I don't need you to make anything simple for me. Until you reach my stage in life, economically, professionally and educationally, I'll be the one who makes it simple for you.
The democrats are the party of cynicism. They play on the fears of minorities and the elderly to maintain their voter base. They have no issues - only critical of republican platform. That's why they failed to generate any real passion this election.
You keep saying that the Republicans support big business and perhaps that is so. We believe that if business makes money, it filters down through all strata. The democrats want to redistribute wealth - largely through taxes. Usually take from the middle class and give it to the poor - usually while helping themselves to a fair share of the spoils.
Now mikey, I know you are a smart guy and being so smart, i'm sure that you've already put 2 and 2 together after today's events. Do you think that the unanimous vote in the security council today, just 48 hours after the elections, was a coincidence? Perhaps the rest of the world has gotten the message that some here on subtalk have not yet gotten. That is, "It's not the economy, stupid - it's war, peace and security."
Keep in mind that regardless of your pontificating and protestations, you are still in the minority of national thought. Most see Mr. Bush as an effective leader despite the quips here. Finally, the rest of the world seems to have gotten the message that this president is motivated and has the popular support of his nation and the free world.
As to transportation, however, Guliani and Pitaki have done more for the NYCT in the way of improvements than Koch. Dinkie and Cuomo. So much for you theory about republicans not supporting mass transit. Now, if you really want to pursue that, I have the numbers to back up those claims - other than your political beliefs, what have you got?
Bush will tie up that loose end in Iraq,possibly without bloodshed. Saddam has to be stopped. What really frosts me is that Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector, spoke at Syracuse University about how we should appease Saddam. Smart liberals support Bu$h's efforts to destroy Saddam's genocidal ambitions. I will only criticize the war effort if it seems that Bu$h is not using enough overwhelming force to crush all Iraqi resistance. OTOH, the economy is something that Bu$h will be held accountable for in two years. I'm willing to bet that we are still in recession in '04 and am saving this message to CD so I can say I told you so.
Today, on radie, I heard tapes of eye witnesses to dozens of women being beheaded in Iraq over the past few weeks. Of course, the commentator was asking where babs streisand was while this was going on. My only hope is that hans blix has problems there. Then let's hope the world responds quickly, definitively and convincingly.
[Bush will tie up that loose end in Iraq,possibly without bloodshed.]
Uh, just like his father did, right?
Bu$h does have to redeem his father's honor here. Make no mistake, when Bu$h is done with Iraq, we could make it the 51st state.
By killing young Americans? Are their lives worth less than "Daddy"?
Had to be asked....please don't reply, as this is getting way off topic....
All of you democratistas keep assuming that the president is targetting Iraq because of the 'unfinished work of his father'. Did it ever occur to you that there may be legitimate need to take out the Iraqi government. Perhaps the wholesale slaughter of hundreds of iraqi women who have been publicly beheaded for speaking against the government? Perhaps the imprisonment and torture of thousands of political prisoners? Perhaps it's the Iraqi government's support of terrorist organizations by providing funding and sactuary? Perhaps it's the Iraqi government's development of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons - weapons that they've demonstrated by past use, that they would be willing to use, unilaterally? Do you really think, with all those legitimate & persuasive reasons for moving against Iraq, our President needs to use 'Correcting the mistakes of his father' as a motive. Even a loyal democtratista should be able to argue more credibly than that.
He has come out publicly and said that this is about the attempt on his father's life, eliminating any legitimacy beyond enforcing the original UN resolutions and sanctions. I can get you the exact quote, date, and location if you want.
In many other places all over the world same things are going on. Look at North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Sudan. Nothing like this is being done about those. Why are they any different?
He has come out publicly and said that this is about the attempt on his father's life,
That's a lie. Prove it.
I guess you don't read newspapers much...
Please post a link to an article in any paper which states that Bush gave the attempted assination of his father as the only reason for attacking Iraq.
I real all the papers. Maybe my paperboy is delivering incomplete papers.
President Bush did mention once or twice that he would like to even the score for Hussein's attempt on his father's life but that is incremental to the real reason the President wants to deal with Hussein. If he is going to use poison gas on his own people do you think he would hesitate a moment to use the oon others?
I was well aware of that. Somehow, this off-handed remark was transformed into Bush's main justification for going to war. That outraged me.
"After all, this is a guy that tried to kill my dad at one time."
Houston, Texas, Sep. 26, 2002 (referring the Saddam Hussein during fundraiser for John Cornyn)
And what does that statement say? It says he would go so far as to kill a former leader of the Free World. And to attempt that beyond a reasonable doubt that Saddam Hussein is one sick person. The sooner he is deposed the better for his people and the rest of the world.
And what does that statement say? It says he would go so far as to kill a former leader of the Free World. And to attempt that beyond a reasonable doubt proves that Saddam Hussein is one sick person. The sooner he is deposed the better for his people and the rest of the world.
This is the corrected version .
That sounds like a comment meant to convey something beyond the vital international reasons for the US foreign policy against Sadaam. I guess when you are a democrat you hang on to any thin thread you can get your fingers on.
While you are mulling that over, perhaps you'd be interested in the fact that former president Clinton (husband of hillary) stated on the Late Show that he felt the move against Iraq was both justifiable and necessary. he also felt that it would take very little time to accomplish. So now I ask you - if Al (the dullard) gore had won the election (don't bother to say he did)what do you think he would have done about Iraq?
Geez guy ... that's EASY! Al Gore would have put Saddam in a LOCKBOX. :)
Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! Wrong answer. Al Gore would not have done anything. He'd still be in hiding after 9/11.
Well, dunno if you noticed, but everyone got tired of the chestbeatings and decided to go play something else. Perhaps if BOTH parties had spared us the "battle of the mental midgets" we might have security AND an economy today. Do we really have either? But I digress, I go ride a train. MUCH more relaxing ... :)
Don't think that I wouldn't love to get rid of Iraq, but since 9/11 there has emerged a new rub. By attacking Iraq, no matter how bad Saddam is, we are going to come off as looking like impearalist thugs which is going to spur new terrorism. There is also a serious chance that, unlike Afghanistan, the Iraqi people will activly resist our occupation. Rational or not you NEVER want to be at odds with an indeginous population on their home turf. We already learned that lesson in Vietnam.
Daddy Bush and his lack of initiative after the gulf war is the root cause of the Saddam problem. We hung all those who rose up against Saddam out to dry and how he's only more powerful. Look at Serbia for a good example of Regime Change. US Bombs only enraged the population, but outside countries enabling internal forces to start an indegenous movement to oust that country's foul dictator proved to be completely successful and now he's rotting in some jain in the Hague.
now he's rotting in some jain in the Hague.
I don't think it's a Jain that's imprisoning him.
You mean Jain with the leather whip?
:0)
bingbong,
GW cited the failed plot against his father while he was visiting Kuwait as one of MANY examples of Saddam's ruthlessness and evil. Perhaps you and many others still believe in the last election that "It's the economy, stupid". Others such as myself and the majority of the population of the U.S. who did indeed vote realize that threats to global stability have to be dealt with SOONER rather than later. History teaches us that threats do not go away through appeasement or casting a blind eye.
If you think that we do not have enough info concerning Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction, think again. With our technology, spies, defections, and captured high ranking prisoners from Desert storm, the facts are loud and clear.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
They haven't even begun to discuss any facts. I would love to see some facts. If they had offered any facts chances are they'd see more support.
I did fully support the first Gulf War, as it is wrong to invade other countries, especially unprovoked. Had I known at the time that the US government essentially acquiessed on Iraqi invasion of Kuwait I doubt my support would have been as strong. We should have acted to stop it from happeneing in the first place, yet no attempt to do so was made. Yes, the UN resolutions should be in place and enforced. However, to go in unilaterally where there has been no proven actual provocation or direct threat to the US on the part of the Iraqui government and people is as wrong as what they did 10+ years ago.
However, to go in unilaterally where there has been no proven actual provocation or direct threat to the US on the part of the Iraqui government and people is as wrong as what they did 10+ years ago.
You're right! Luckily Britain and France heeded your advice in 1936, 1938 and early 1939, bringing us "Peace in our time."
Yea pig!!! I despise Bu$h's fascist economic policies, but Iraq M*U*S*T be crushed.
Have you been to the recruiting office yet? America needs you ...
Although I do agree with you in theory, I do have to bring up one major difference between appeasement today and appeasement in the 30's. In the 30's there WAS "actual provocation" and "direct threat" already as the taking of the Rhineland AND the Anchluss of Australia Austria already happened and hitler was threatening to take over Czechoslovakia by force if he didn't get his way.
And anyway, as much as we disagree with Bingbong politically we do have to admit she did a hell of a job piloting the redbird at Branford last month!
She????? Well that answers a lot of questions for me. I wish I had known sooner because, yes, I would have gone a little easier on her. I'm such a softy when it comes to women.
That's "Mrs. SELKIRK" to you ... and could we PLEASE stop it? This isn't SHRUBTALK ya know. At least us so-called liberals talk about TRAINS every now and then. :)
The nation's already divided enough without rending subtalk asunder too. The only thing that's worse than a sore loser is a sore winner. 'word ...
Good God, I learn someting new every second. Well please do me a favor and convey my warmest regards to your better half, and if she will permit it give her a great big hug for me. I promise I will be on my best behavior whenever I deal with bingbang.
I dunno dewd ... that's sorta between you and her. While I've spent some time trying to "hip you" to where WE'RE at and why we don't fit the Rush Limbag "pigeonholes," THIS time you've stomped on a corporation CEO held in the HIGHEST regard by your own GOP - a "Captain of Industry" and one I learned YEARS ago not to mess with. Nancy and I are BOTH "ontapanoors" with a DEFINITE capitalist bent. No commies are WE, though "noblesse oblige" *STILL* is part of our OWN "fundamentalist moral fiber" ... whoops, call us GOLDWATER Commies if you must, but WE believe the money sent to *US* must be showered back on NORMAL people, not Enron and Halliburton. Whoops. WE contribute to social causes because it's the RIGHT thing to do with our "largesse" from those who pay our company bills for us and keep us with FOOD on the table ... SHARE and SHARE alike, "there but for the grace of God go WE" ... whoops.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Calling bingbong a "commie" when she's the CEO of a "straight domestic corporation" of equal wight under the law as IBM or GE is something that REALLY irked her. There's NO ONE who is as much of a SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE CAPITALIST as Bingbong. You screwed up bigtime here, bro ... really. And I, being a capitalist lackey, ain't no commie either. Watch the rhetoric, doesn't MATTER if she's a woman in charge of a corporation to MOST folks ... and I *love* being a "kept man" ... goes against the grain of fascism. :)
A little old lady called 911. When the operator answered she yelled, "Help, send the police to my house right away! There's a damn Republican on my front porch and he's playing with himself."
"What?" the operator exclaimed.
"I said there is a damn Republican on my front porch playing with himself and he's weird; I don't know him and I'm afraid! Please send the police right away !" the little old lady said.
"Well, now, how do you know he's a Republican???"
"Because, you damn fool, if he were a Democrat, he'd be screwing somebody!"
Moo. :)
Nancy is the CEO of our company and her forgiveness is ENTIRELY based on the amount of grovelling you do. And let me ASSURE you, the "republican" mindset don't buy doo-wah-diddy-doo among WOMEN ("gender-gap", anyone?) who have had to guide a corporation DESPITE your pals ... and beating up on wimmen ... well ... that's the hallmark of "republicanism" ... "we're for the rights of the unborn, but once you're born, you're on your own, and if you're twat-impaired, we'll give you the high hard one" and "RESPECT you in the morning." Uh-huh. Poor little critters, we gotta PROTECT da wimmens from themselves. Wonder why there's still democrats? Ayup. :)
If the GOP paid ANY mind to REAL women's issues, there wouldn't BE democraps. You got yourself into this, you get yourself out. I stand CLEAR of THIS mess, bucko. I *know* better! :)
Well, it looks like I'm still in a pile of doo-doo and must fend for myself to get extracated from this mess. You're going to have to go to bat for me because if she won't allow you to give her a hug on my behalf, I sure as hell know she won't let me do it when I eventually meet her. But I don't think I ever called her a Commie.
That joke is worth a rim shot.:)
Wow ... that got formatted strangely, thank you, latest version of Nutscrape ... :(
"bing-bang?" Ummm.. that freudian slip is showing bro, and it's PINK! Oh, the humanity! :)
No offense, but the "skirt-impaired" actually are capable of holding their own. Heh. Stop being a mook and realize that we're ALL just plain old folks here - Nancy can run a subway train better than *I* can. And I enjoyed every MOMENT of it. Stop hanging out with those Taliban you admire and emulate. Glad you're getting some on you still after all these years, but fatc is wimmen are really cool people if you stop putting them up on a pedestal so's you can look up their skirt. :)
But yeah, ya wonder why Wimmen vote for the "other side" ... it's JUST that same mentality that embraces the mindset of the "right." REALITY? Girls just wanna have FUN ... get over the apologies, get over the namecalling and you might find that Bingbong is a LOT of fun. I didn't stick with here for 25 years UNLESS she was fun. And she's a bigger foamer than the rest of US ... as long as you're not one of those who believe in the far right, who'd make AMERICAN women wear Burkhas or hide behind Ashcroft's blue curtain. Let's face it, bro ... wimmen are a LOT more fun to be with than GUYS ... so why do the repubs INSIST on screwing them without benefit of yayas?
Anyhoo, you got yourself into this, you get yourself outta it. :)
You may not believe this but I love the company of women and I am not a Taliban of any sort. I'm a compassionate, pro-choice Republican who happens to be a hawk on foreign policy and death on taxes.
And a real nice guy to boot.
Thank you sir, though I'm sure there are a few on board right now who might disagree with you. Have a great week.
Not to worry, bro ... there's a lot of folks who are just plain stunned by the stupidity on all sides that's gotten us to where we are this week. But you did make a comment about "Comrade bingbong" back there somewhere and Nancy is anything BUT "pink" on economics. Alas, when you've got boobs like Ashcroft and Ralph Reed and Jerry Fallwell lurking about, republicans ain't looked upon too favorably. The democrats have largely jettisoned their OWN loonies, but the repubs keep sucking up to theirs. Something's gotta give. :)
But as long as we have to endure the "family values" nonsense from parental units who are adulterers and whose own children are in jail, well ... gets a bit hard to swallow. Heh.
The answer to that is simple: If it doesn't have anything to do with rail transit (or bus transit on BusTalk), then DON'T POST IT. Don't start a subject that's off-topic, and don't continue one that's off-topic.
...end transmission from thought police :-) ...
David
["She????? Well that answers a lot of questions for me. I wish I had known sooner because, yes, I would have gone a little easier on her. I'm such a softy when it comes to women."]
Shhhh, Fred, don't tell anyone, but she's Selkirk's wife. But then again, you would've known that and have met her if you and Bob took all of our advice and came to Branford on SubTalk day.
Selkirk just informed me of that. Well Branford, here I come next October. God willing, nothing will keep me away. You think Selkirk's wife will forgive me for putting her on like I did in some of my posts?
Well, it all begins with a sincere apology.
The Rhineland was German territory, think of it as the Iraqi no fly zones.
Iraq's provocation was the explusion of the weapons inspectors. Now that they are being allowed to return, that changes things somewhat. But if they are expelled again, that will be cause for attack.
Not to mention 1689.:) Got it up to E above middle C on the straightaway.
The attempted assasination of Bu$h 41 by Saddam JUSTIFIES anything the office of the presidency can do to ensure that Iraq poses no further threat to the civilized world. The coincidence that W's father was the target of said assasination attempt merely serves to make it more certain that justice will be served. I am on the Administration's side on this.
Daddy went over to Kuwait as a private citizen when the attempt on his life happened, not performing in any variety of civil capacity or represnting the government of the US at the time.
If was still in office or representing the US in an offical (even temporary) capacity, it would be a different story. Bill Clinton ordered Baghdad bombed over it, case closed, what more do they want?
What difference does it make if he was still President or private citizen? He was still a former President and one of our country's most prominant citizens. And as for what more do I want, I want Saddam Hussein disarmed. He is a threat to the world, comrade Bingbong.
"Even a loyal democtratista should be able to argue more credibly than that."
How about this, then:
- Saddam is an extremely vicious person, but he's getting older and except when he's provoked he doesn't seem to be interested in terrorizing anyone except the unfortunate people of Iraq. Also, working together with the Israelis we can insure that his missles don't travel very far.
- The unrest that will follow an invasion of Iraq will make our job of finding Al Qaeda terrorists much harder and less successful.
- We don't trust Bush to do the WHOLE job right. Getting rid of Saddam is step 1 and has a high probability of success. What about creating an Iraqi government that will not be a threat? We're having trouble enough doing this in Afghanistan. Are we willing to make the $50 billion investment and ongoing loss of American lives to do it in Iraq, or will we just walk out after the 50th soldier is murdered?
- For our own safety, it would be a lot cheaper to properly secure our borders and give the Coast Guard and Customs the money they need. Where's the money to do an externam radiation check on each truck and ship that comes to the US? Bush doesn't want to spend it!
And this is actually ON TOPIC. We need technology to allow free flow of people and goods across our borders while still maintaining security. This technology costs money, though much less than an occupation of Iraq, but Bush isn't willing to spend it.
You make some excellent points there.
These are things which should be carefully accounted for before we act overtly to topple Saddam.
Iraq is an artificial creation from remnants of the Ottoman Empire, and has three different groups which do not get along. We will need to deal with the chaos that results afterward, something the elder Bush avoided (or at least postponed) by not toppling Saddam in 1991.
First, just recall that big old Republican problem with our country becomming "The World's Policeman".
Most of the reasons you gave aren't legitimate simply for the following reason, there exist MANY MANY countries that are doing the exact same sort of things. China, North Korea, Pakistan, Iran and who know how many other Middle Eastern and Central Asian countries are all guilty of essentially the same transgressions. The only differance with Iraq is that they directly threaten our oil supply. We used to support Hussein in our effort against Iran, but then he failed to ask proper permission to invade Kuwait and became the bad guy.
Anyway, we have absolutely no moral high ground when it comes to forgien affairs. We routienly use countries for our own advantage and then wad them up and throw them away. The only reason we care about the Iraq problem is because Saddam is the enemy of our oil buddies.
Saddam only cares about one thing, his own regime and power. He really dosen't want to pick a fight with the US. He would like nothing more than for us to just leave him alone to do his own thing. Pre-1990 we supported Saddam as a check against Iran. Saddam would probably be loathe to support large scale terrorist operations from his country simply because they would not be working for him, but for Bin Ladden and his gang and also for some sort of religious ideal that would further undermine Saddam's rule. If Saddam is harbouring terrorists it is for bargaining purposes. Saddam's weapons of mass destruction are one of three things: A deterrant for a US attack, a means to attack Isreal and a means to attack his neighbors. Saddam would never make an aggressive assault on US forces using those weapons and Irseal has its own nukes and anti-missile systems and can pretty much take care of itself. This leaves Iraq's role as a destabilizing force in the region as the only main problem w/ Saddam's regime.
I think that we could successfully negioiate with Saddam to stop terrorists w/in his borders and to guarentee a steady flow of oil from his country. I don't think he can be trusted not to attack his neighbors.
I feel that he we wanted to sell out all of our gulf "friends" and give Saddam a free hand in the region he would keep the oil flowing and the terrorists at bay. But to do so would be to give up any sence of moral authority we have left in the world. So I guess it just matters where our priorities lay. Bush obviously dosen't care what the rest of the world thinks about us, so he must have another motovation to attack Iraq.
This whole problem has been made worse because we have gotten ourselves into such a moral gray zone. Terrorists hate because, us amoung other things, we support authoritarian governments that provide us with oil w/o regard to the people of those countries. Saddam is clearly evil, but by attacking only him and not demanding regime change in any of the other countries w/ bad govermnets we only stregnthen the terrorists position. By leaving Saddam in place he might provide resources to terrorists and thus stregnthen the terrorists position. We've backed ourselves into a horrible Catch 22 and all Bush is doing is working it for political leverage.
Hey Bubba Bingbang, you want a missile dropped on your loved ones? It could happen if that maniac has his way. War is not inevitable. If Saddam complies with the U.N. Resolution and allows full inspection of his facilities and disarms all his nuclear weapons then there will be no war. Have you read about the beheadings of people there in recent weeks? The guy is a brutal bastard and with weapons of mass destruction in his hands he is a danger to the rest of humanity.
What the hell does Iraq have to do with this discussion? Just like Baby Bush (any many dictators before him) you are trying to deflect the issue by screaming about national security.
The Security Council passed the resolution because after Bush won the election he was able to back down and compromise over the wording of the resolution. Bush was using the big tough Iraq / War talk to win political points because as you said he's the big important war leader. Now that the election is over we don't need a war any more so we can have another round of Arms Inspection.
Here's a prediction. The Arms Inspection will last for about 18 months before Iraq starts to break its promices all over again...just in time for the 2004 election.
Thanks Nick, and now there are three of us who are happy===Nick, Dude and SBF. Any more happy campers out there?
My pleasure, Fred...always glad to be of service :-) -Nick
Repubs are here, it's war, and recession, fear, and deficts. Gone are the good old clinton days when all we had was a pres who banged what, 3 or 4 chicks? Hell, I respect the guy, he showed that american presidents can still get it up, after a few that demonstrated they had a pair, but left questions as to other functions down below.
Now we're right back where we started in 1991, all I can hope for is that BUSH II screws up like BUSH I, making war to early, only to come crashing back to economic and political reality. But notice how THE WAR keeps getting pushed back? Lots of posturing and so on? How much ya wanna bet that Bush is doing nothing more than positioning for reelection. We coulda had Iraq dead long ago if he really meant it, but he sees it. Keep the war close to the elections, ride the wave of popular opinion right over the economy to another term. Course then if the war goes badly, he can duck and cover, leave the mess for whatever democrat comes in after him, and thereby sets up another republican pres. This trend could go on for as much as 4 or 5 terms, unless some outstanding president comes along, resulting in the same situation as back in the middle-late 19th century, lots of forgettable presidents, which would mean that Clinton would be the last great president we have for quite a while. And don't kid yourself, BUSH II will never be a great president, his vocabulary easily sees to that, if it weren't for 9/11, we'd all be screaming for his head. But now, because of some foreign policy mistake dating back to the eisenhower administration (heck, maybe back to Hoover...), he's the luckiest president of all time, public approval is up, he's got all the branches of the government to jump at his (or his political handler's) words, and he's got the entire nation terrified, and whats more, he's got the perfect 'wag the dog' cover to keep us all off his case over his old enron buddies, still running around with billions in retirement funds from their employees.
Maybe I should consider Political Science as a major...
Oh yeah, and you can kiss all those nice transit systems goodby, ain't no way in hell they'll even get out of committee, let alone onto the floor for a vote, what with the votes for oil drilling anywhere, Tobaccy subsidies, and castrating the the EPA, they're dead.
You sure you and Sour grapes Jersey aren't the same guy? I seem to be hearing the same bs from both of you. Tell you what Double Dribble Dobner, I'll make a deal with you. Give Bush a year and let's see what happens. He proved in Texas he could get a lot of things done and his popularity there skyrocketed. He will now do the same here. Come on, Triple D, have some optimism.
This Republican didn't vote for Pataki, he's moved too far to the left to suit me.
Pataki's TOO FAR TO THE LEFT???? Since when?
"Pataki's TOO FAR TO THE LEFT???? Since when? "
Depends on where you are standing.
But was *anybody* running to the right of him?
Elias
Some think Golisano was "to the right" but alas, Golisano was one of those clowns with tin foil on his head in order to contact the mothership. New York's answer to Jesse Ventura. :)
Did you try voting for the National Socialist canidate? If you're looking for right wing you can't go wrong with them.
The National Socialist Candidate would be a reactionary and not a Conservative. Your slipping SourGrapes Jersey.
Golisano? You've got to be kidding me. Well Thumping Thurston, you're still ok in my book and if you are happy with what took place overall on Tuesday you can join Big Nick, Dude and SBF in the pantheon of happy campers. Any others want to join?
Maybe I'm not happy & maybe I'll get unhappyer, but at least I voted.
That's more then I can say for a lot in this good old USA.
BTW, got the wife & daughter to vote also ... with the help of my grandson, he pulls the lever pritty good ... must be his expierence in pulling the handle at Branford < G >
Absolutley. Hearing the liberal whining (which has also infected this board) gives me nothing but pleasure. What's interesting is how the Democrats will react. Will they move to the left, which will energize their base but insure their continued demise? Or will they attempt to ride Bush's coattails? That'll turn off their liberal faction but might keep them from becoming more irrelevant.
Id rather move to North Korea and eat dirt than vote Republican. As a life-long, very liberal Democrat, I am disgusted at the Republican's plans for Arctic drilling and their refusal to fight for tougher pollution laws. The oil and automotive industries control the GOP (which really stands for Gas, Oil, and Petroleum). The Republican party is satisfied with suburban, upper-middle-class, SUV-driving white men, and transit benefits those democratic, minority, poor, stupid, lazy little heathens who live in the cities. Who would support such trash like that? That would be UN-AMERICAN! Perhaps if we shipped these ungrateful, minority, welfare rats to places like Iraq, we wouldnt need transit and they could finally appreciate the forced nationalism and shredded Constitution that makes up the American way. Hopefully, as long as the GOP keeps shipping those jobs south of the border and keeps passing Free Trade agreements, there will be no blue-collar jobs left in the US, thus no more lower-class and no more minorities in the cities needing to use transit.
Just a little tribute to the kind of mentality that has now seized control of ALL branches of government. Wanna talk conservative? Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they saw the kind of neo-Fascist leadership that has eliminated all forms of checks and balances created in the Constitution.
Id rather move to North Korea and eat dirt than vote Republican.
Flights to Pyonyang leave JFK daily. I'm sure their in-flight menu has some sort of soil on it.
As a life-long, very liberal Democrat, I am disgusted at the Republican's plans for Arctic drilling and their refusal to fight for tougher pollution laws.
Every drop of oil from Alaska lessens the dependance on oil imports. Start those drills up!
The oil and automotive industries control the GOP (which really stands for Gas, Oil, and Petroleum).
No major corporation puts all of it's political capital in one party. Oil companies are no exception. They give liberally to Democrats as well as Republicans.
The Republican party is satisfied with suburban, upper-middle-class, SUV-driving white men, and transit benefits those democratic, minority, poor, stupid, lazy little heathens who live in the cities. Who would support such trash like that? That would be UN-AMERICAN!
Class warfare? How nostalgic. You sound like the narrator on one of those democtatic campaign comercials that didn't work.
Perhaps if we shipped these ungrateful, minority, welfare rats to places like Iraq, we wouldnt need transit and they could finally appreciate the forced nationalism and shredded Constitution that makes up the American way.
[yawn]
Hopefully, as long as the GOP keeps shipping those jobs south of the border and keeps passing Free Trade agreements, there will be no blue-collar jobs left in the US, thus no more lower-class and no more minorities in the cities needing to use transit.
That's a despicable statement. If you disagree with republican policies, that's fine. But to claim they're racist because they don't prescribe to the liberal welfare state that too many minorities have been bamboozeled into believing is their economic salvation is beyond the realm of decency.
I'd rather move to North Korea and eat dirt than vote Republican.
Flights to Pyonyang leave JFK daily. I'm sure their in-flight menu has some sort of soil on it.
No direct flights, alas. You'd have to take Air China to Beijing and then Air Koryo to Pyongyang. A connection via Moscow, using Delta or Aeroflot and then Air Koryo, also would be possible but likely more expensive.
"Every drop of oil from Alaska lessens the dependance on oil imports. Start those drills up! "
It isn't necessary. Specifically in the NY state region, we can add a third nuclear unit to Indian Point (a new unit pre-certewd by the NRC, rated at 1500 megawatts which utilizes passive safety technologies). Replace the 400 megawatt nuclear plant run by Rochester Gas and Electric (or whoever owns them now) with another 1500 megawatt unit. Result: stick to existing sites, add 3 gigawatts of baseload power to the grid, and tell Washington we don't need the extra crude just yet.
By the way, US marketers have recently been purchasing refined gasoline from Europe. Nearly half of cars driven in France and Germany use diesel fuel and their refineries are still configured to put out a lot of gasoline. So they've increased diesel output within existing facilities, and exported the refined gasoline here. It costs a LOT to reconfigure a refinery to change the mix of fuels it produces, which is why this is happening.
And, of course, we're gulping it down with 10 mpg SUVs, which outsell every other vehicle in the marketplace.
>>And, of course, we're gulping it down with 10 mpg SUVs, which
outsell every other vehicle in the marketplace. <<
Well, there it is--free market polluters, just what we need, whereas I the tree hugging, enviro, TRANSIT USER, want the SUV's destroyed. My bleeding heart cries out for O2 not CO2, less wasteful plastic packaging, and a myriad of other "coercive" efforts to preserve a livable planet in contrast to the "free marketers" who still deny global warming because it is inconsistent with expanding sales.
Oh and Fred, its capitalism which allowed the Dodgers to abandon Brooklyn. ('course you followed them to the southern wastelands)
"Oh and Fred, its capitalism which allowed the Dodgers to abandon Brooklyn. ('course you followed them to the southern wastelands)"
AKA "Unmentionable" in Texas-speak. The Mexican portio is called "Lower Unmentionable" in Texas.
"Oh and Fred, its capitalism which allowed the Dodgers to abandon Brooklyn. ('course you followed them to the southern wastelands)"
AKA "Unmentionable" in Texas-speak. The Mexican portion is called "Lower Unmentionable" in Texas.
No Frisco, the Dodgers followed ME out here. And if you want to compare the scenic beauty of the North with Southern California go right ahead. I don't mind at all if you make a complete fool of yourself.
Technically, you're correct. But America isn't going to cut it's energy consumption, expand nucular power plants, or give up it's SUV's. I'd rather drill in Alaska than become even more dependant on those Arab lunatics in the middle east. And in reality, those are your only 2 realistic options.
There is one advantage to a Republican Administration and Congress - Yucca Mountain will move forward and our chances of getting another nuke up and running got a little better.
Hold the drilling...
Hold the drilling...
I'd rather drill in Alaska than expand nucular power plants. It's politically and perhaps ecologically more sound, despite what the environmentalist wackos will tell you.
I'd rather drill in Alaska than expand nucular power plants. It's politically and perhaps ecologically more sound.
It's obviously politically more sound to drill for oil, but how is it ecologically more sound? Nuclear power is the safest, cheapest and cleanest form of practical power production there is.
Nuclear power is the safest, cheapest and cleanest form of practical power production there is.
Sorry, everytime I think of nucular power plants, I think of a Homer Simpson-type running them.
"Sorry, everytime I think of nucular power plants, I think of a Homer Simpson-type running them."
If you're truly interested, there is a lot of reading you can do to disabuse yourself of the erroneous and dishonest notions promoted by the antinuclear lobby.
you're truly interested, there is a lot of reading you can do to disabuse yourself of the erroneous and dishonest notions promoted by the antinuclear lobby.
I know, but after Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island, the nucular power industry is DOA in this country.
"I know, but after Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island, the nucular power industry is DOA in this country."
That remains to be proven. :0)
Chernobyl was the fault of communist ideology's willingness to forgo the safety of it's citizens for the sake of industrialization. This is sinilar to radical laissez-faire capitalism's desire to void environmental regulations for the sake of profits. Nuclear power plants can be built safely, it just requires careful engineering and fewer, larger plants built underground. Oil is the "crack" of our economy and anything which can be used to replace it is worth exploring.
"Chernobyl was the fault of communist ideology's willingness to forgo the safety of it's citizens for the sake of industrialization. This is sinilar to radical laissez-faire capitalism's desire to void environmental regulations for the sake of profits."
No, that's not it at all. Chernobyl was an old, obsolete design by Western standards, but the accident there happened because workers ran a test after disabling every safety mechanism the plant had. Their actions violated operating tenets that even the Soviets had reasonably adhered to up till then.
I know, but after Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island, the nucular power industry is DOA in this country.
Three Mile Island proves completely the safety of nuclear power. That after all those "worst case scenarios" the worst nuclear disaster in the country caused no harm except to the reactor itself.
Chernobyl is proof that the nuclear industry in the Soviet Union should be dead. That could never happen in the United States. Even if they pull the exact same experiment in the US, it still wouldn't happen because of the higher standards of plant construction.
P.S. DOA stands for dead on arrival. If the nuclear industry was "DOA" it would have been dead in 1955. It wasn't.
Very nice post.
I should have said that any plan to increase or expand our use of nuclear power would be DOA. New nuclear plants cannot be built in this country. It's taking herculean efforts to keep the existing ones operational. For political reasons they cannot compete with oil. Given that choice, we HAVE to start drilling in Alaska. It's either that or become even more dependant on oil from the middle east.
Or...we just get off oil entirely and start expanding the already existing technology with bio-fuels. But since the Repukes are at the mercy of the oil and automotive industry, thats not likely to happen anytime soon.
Sorry, but there is no viable alternative to fossil fuels today. Nucular energy is politically untenable, and the technology of so-called "alternate" energy sources cannot maintain America's energy needs at a cost comparable to fossils. Without oil, our economy & our way of life would collapse.
Where do you get this information?
Bio Fuels could nearly eliminate our dependency on foreign oil, which is about 50% of our total supply. It would also create a huge surge in value and prices for the agriculture industry, which would be a huge boost to the working man and to this economy.
Bio Fuels could nearly eliminate our dependency on foreign oil, which is about 50% of our total supply. It would also create a huge surge in value and prices for the agriculture industry, which would be a huge boost to the working man and to this economy.
Can you provide links to unbiased scientific studies confirming this? Note I said "unbiased".
here are some links that you might find interesting
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0132/baard.php
http://www.hempcar.org
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020415&c=3&s=bivens
There are plenty of other articles out there, I just dont have the time to link them all.
Actually, there's REMARKABLE quantities of oil and natural gas right off the Florida coast - probably more than in Alaska. And to make it even MORE useful to drill within a mile or two of Florida's sunny beaches, there's a miracle compound down there called HYDRIDES that would also work to solve our energy needs far better than the piddly amount up north.
Of course, that isn't going to happen - unless Florida elected democrats. As long as "Bro" is down there, all that exploration that turned up HUGE quantities of domestic energy will go nowhere. Even HERE, it's plain old politics ...
Environmentalist whackos?
Yeah, caring about the planet and trying to protect nature is such a whacked out idea. What are these assholes thinking? How dare they stand in the way of industrial progress! Since when did the Bush Regime give them the right to think about the long term impacts of their Fascist agenda? Damn those dissenters! Caring about the earth is UN-AMERICAN and un-patriotic. United We Stand, they are either with us or against us. No room for opinions in the post-war AmeriKKKa.
Jeez, I havent heard a stupider comment since Bush's last public address.
And when you just can't get enough of those zany speeches, there's always:
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/
When subtalk slows down overnight, I head over there ...
"Jeez, I havent heard a stupider comment since Bush's last public address."
Well I can tell you I've heard one stupider. YOURS!!!!
1. Oil drilling doesn't destroy the earth.
2. "Protecting the Earth" is not the environmentalists main agenda. It's an anti-business, anti industrial agenda.
3. Jobs and energy are more important than trees and owls. Hundreds of species of plants and animals become extinct every year without any hel from modern man.
If permanent damage to the earth and a depletion of non-renewable resources doesnt destroy the planet, then what does? Why should we permanently ruin pristine wilderness for short-term economic gain?
I am an environmentalist myself, and we are NOT anti-business. We are in favor of clean, respectful, and honest business. We prefer small business over corporations, and we advocate workers rights. Saying environmental protection and economic prosperity can't co-exist is an outright lie. We need responsible industry, not greedy industry.
Jobs and energy can indeed be created without destroying the environment. If there weren't so many corporate mergers and greed in the workplace, there would be hundreds of thousands of additional, good-paying jobs.
If so many animals and plants become extinct naturally, why don't you name some?
You are talking out of your ass with this anti-Earth, pro-ultracapitalist garbage. Protecting the planet is more important than having people make $70 Billion.
"I am an environmentalist myself, and we are NOT anti-business. We are in favor of clean, respectful, and honest business."
Bravo. No argument there from me.
"We prefer small business over corporations, and we advocate workers rights."
Size of business per se has nothing to do with this. In some cases it can actually be an advantage.
" Saying environmental protection and economic prosperity can't co-exist is an outright lie."
I agree with you there.
"Jobs and energy can indeed be created without destroying the environment."
True statement
"If there weren't so many corporate mergers and greed in the workplace, there would be hundreds of thousands of additional, good-paying jobs."
False statement. Mergers can be efficient or inefficient; with the caveat that antitrust protection may be inadequate, amerger per se does not destroy jobs - it leads to their redistribution. What must accompany them are organizing rights for workers, and workers' understanding that they must bear responsibility for updating their own job skills and adapting to new work environments. It's a two-way street.
" We need responsible industry, not greedy industry."
Not accurate. What we need is effective regulation and open disclosure so that business can operate for a profit motive under rules which protect the environment. This works for businesses large and small. Whether the current Administration truly believes in that is an open question,, certainly controversial. If you believe they do not then I would be sympathetic to you, to a point.
I do believe that there was a major problem that led to the debacles of Enron, WorldCom, tyco and many others.
I believe that there is likely enough some way to craft an ethical standard of behavior for corporations and their officers that provides for transparity and honesty in business (though I do not know what this might look like). I do not that the government has the physical or moral authority to enforce such an ethical standard ahead of the violation of law in which case the fiscal damage to others is already done.
I believe that the *MARKET* can do this if it chooses. The stock exchanges can agree to list only those companies that do have such ethical standards in place: You want to exchange your stocks on *my* floor, you show me that you are in compliance with these ethical standards! You prove to me that your books are honest, then you can be traded here.
Ow well, my skypie is as good as anybody else's.
Elias
Needs salt. :)
"I'd rather drill in Alaska than expand nucular power plants. It's politically and perhaps ecologically more sound, despite what the environmentalist wackos will tell you. "
The whackos want neither, and you don't understand the relative risks involved. Oil drilling in Alaska's National Wildlife Refuge will kill wildlife, destroy land which cannot be restored, and lead to thousands of deaths and millions of cases of respiratory illnesses. The burning of fossil fuels seriously hurts us, both health-wise and environmentally, and costs us billions of dollars every year.
Nuclear power poses a tiny, tiny fraction of that risk and has actually saved lives, from that perspective.
I guess i'm one of those "whackos", and I agree with you.
I have mixed feelings with nuclear power. It is the cleanest, most efficient method of energy generation we have come up with. However, it poses a very serious threat with radiation, and it creates waste that is dangerous for millions of years. However, it generates a very small amount of waste for the amount of energy produced. A piece of Uranium the size of a pen cap powers a submarine nonstop for 25 years. However, I believe it should be very strictly regulated, and it shouldn't be seriously expanded anytime soon.
Fossil Fuels are the worst techology we could expand. Not only do they burn massive amounts of fuel for a small amount of energy, but they release outrageous amounts of CO2 and particulate matter. I could go on for hours about how much better nuclear is over fossil fuels, but I feel the real future technology lies in bio-fuels and win power, where it's available. Hydroelectric is a brilliant method of production, but it creates a lot of environmental disturbance and you need a large land area for reservoirs.
"However, it poses a very serious threat with radiation, and it creates waste that is dangerous for millions of year"
True in the first case, but one that has been effectively addressed - so it's not an issue.
The second case is true but not relevant, because there are many more wastes which we accept in close proximity to ourselves which last FOREVER. Nuclear waste is the only waste which actually becomes less dangerous with time (and some isotopes become harmless in months). And now that the federal government has approved Yucca Mountain as a monitored waste repository, expansion of generating capacity is practical.
So an expansion of nuclear power is the easiest way to save lives and the environment.
Or place the spent fuel in a rocket and sent it away from the planet.
OK what if the roket explodes on lift off?
Elias
I'm sure somebody thought about that and dismissed the idea as impractical.
I suspect when our level of technology reaches the point where we don't need to put people or things into space on top of what are basicly bombs we can safely send nuclear waste into the sun, where all the nuclear waste we currently have wouldn't even cause a blip in the star's output.
Well, we've learned how to "beam up" (Star Trek-style) one electron a distance of a couple of feet, and, if I heard right, we're learning how to do that for a proton or a neutron. Who knows...
WRONG
The best option right now is bio-fuels. A Bio-diesel fuel can be made simply from soy or hemp, and added straignt to a diesel engine with no modification. Burns clean and is renewable. Also adds a high value on American agriculture, which is an industry that has been hurting over the past decades. With hybrid technology, combined with diesel and bio-fuel technology, we can build some very sophisticated, very efficient automobiles. The problem--The GOP has its hands in the pockets of the oil industry, and car manufacturers won't take the initiative to make these improvements without huge subsidies from the government. And since the fascists in power like to spend their money bombing other countries, and fattening their wallets by the oil industry, none of this is likely to happen anytime soon.
The real irony is that a 2 mpg average fuel efficiency improvement for new US motor vehicles would like save 4-5 times the amount of oil that would ever ever come out of the Artic Wildlife Refuge. I'm all against wussy cars, but 2 mpg more is like nothing. If we can design stealth bombers we can make SUV's 2 mpg more efficient.
I am personally against drilling in the artic less for environmental reasons, but because it is stupid to use up all of our natural oil right now. 50 years from now we want the OTHER countries to run out of oil, not ourselves.
"The real irony is that a 2 mpg average fuel efficiency improvement for new US motor vehicles would like save 4-5 times the amount of oil that would ever ever come out of the Artic Wildlife Refuge. I'm all against wussy cars, but 2 mpg more is like nothing. If we can design stealth bombers we can make SUV's 2 mpg more efficient. "
I agree. Improving a car's performance by 2 mpg is actually quite trivial, but the automakers see no market advantage in doing so.
"The real irony is that a 2 mpg average fuel efficiency improvement for new US motor vehicles would like save 4-5 times the amount of oil that would ever ever come out of the Artic Wildlife Refuge. I'm all against wussy cars, but 2 mpg more is like nothing. If we can design stealth bombers we can make SUV's 2 mpg more efficient. "
I agree. Improving a car's performance by 2 mpg is actually quite trivial, but the automakers see no market advantage in doing so. They are getting a free ride on this issue.
Hey Chris, if I lived in Sunnyside I'd probably want to move to North Korea, too. And as a Republican I feel we have to convince African-Americans that we want to see them succeed which right now they don't believe. I would hope that would see through the vaneer of the Demos phony pitch, especially since the 60's only a third of our black bretheran have improved their economic status, a third are about the same, and a third a worse off. That to me is not what I would call economic progress.
No demographic group is as politically impotent as African Americans are today. Democrats take them for granted, ignoring their concerns because the know they'll vote democrat without exception. Republicans ignore them, not thinking it worth the effort to woo them. They should take the road latinos are taking. While still predominently Democratic, nearly one-third have voted Republican in recent elections, giving them a power base in both parties.
Until the latinos get smart enough to see that they're being used by the GOP as much as by the Dems...the truth could be that third party politics might end up being THE ONLY ROUTE for ANY minority groups in America someday soon (this includes blacks, latinos, Asians, handicapped, gay/lesbian, most 'working stiffs', etc.).
What if I said that I sort of agree with you, would that be earth shaking? There seems to be a lot of taking for granted on both sides and maybe a third option is the way. However, the party would have to be centrist because either a left or right leaning party would lead to one of the mainstream parties being permanently marginalized.
*NOW* you're singing *MY* tune, Unca Fred ... repubs are the extreme right wing, dems are the extreme left wing and until SOME party starts to think about us "normal" folks, they can BOTH go to hell ... I think you're finally starting to see where I'm coming from. MOST of America just wants to be left alone, and to be able to select people that will do the CORRECT thing for EVERYBODY. Ain't nobody in office like that anymore though, just lunatic zealots from both fringes ... catering to their OWN special interests, and screw everybody ELSE ...
AMEN!
Heh. Sorry for my HERESY, but doing the will of the PEOPLE, not ENRON shouldn't has to be NUKE-U-LAR brain science. :)
However, the party would have to be centrist because either a left or right leaning party would lead to one of the mainstream parties being permanently marginalized.
I don't see that as a problem. It has happened before, the Republicans replaced the Whigs in 1856.
Finally, we agree on something! Fred, we'll have to celebrate...:)
Until the latinos get smart enough to see that they're being used by the GOP as much as by the Dems...
Well duh. Every demographic gets "used" by the two major parties. What latinos have done well is attach a pricetag to that "usage". African-Americans don't.
That's partially correct. But the 'race issue' is still a part of the equation for why African-Americans get screwed no matter who they side with in an election.
You'll see more and more people of different ethnic groups move away from the two-party system as they start to wake up and see that they get nowhere with the GOP or the Dems. It's a slow process, but it is growing...
You'll see more and more people of different ethnic groups move away from the two-party system as they start to wake up and see that they get nowhere with the GOP or the Dems.
That will further their political impotence, as nothing of substance ever gets done in Washington without the two-party system being involved. The best thing to do is to form a power base within both parties and excercize that power when the time arises. Right now, Republicans control everything. Since there are so few black republicans, they're practically powerless inside the beltway. And calling Colin Powell a "house negro" doesn't help things.
Pardon me, but I don't think there are ANY black republicans anymore. The party caused JC Watts to give up and quit in disgust. Of course, they made him rephrase his original comments to "resign in order to spend more time with my family" ... same difference though. He gone. And what the GOP's done to Colin Powell (who was once a true condender) is pretty impressive.
No, I think the democrats have proven beyond a doubt that it's time for them to go the way of the Whigs and the Know-nothings into the dust bin of history. So WATT'S the future? Greens? Jesse Ventura's disco dance party thing? Or should we all just stay home and let the republicans have a 19% majority instead of this year's 39.4%?
As I've said before, I no longer care, the American people have spoken, and they'll get PRECISELY the government they deserve.
The best thing to do is to form a power base within both parties and excercize that power when the time arises
Some people have tried this: it makes the Democrats *are* a third party all onto themselves! There are so many people pulling that party in so many different directions that they might as well be the 'third-party'.
The Republicans on the other hand (replete with back-room politics) is somewhat free from this fragmentation.
You see, it is not enough to try to sway the party from the outside, supporting those candidates that you like... you need (if you wish to be a meaningul political animal) to be able to negeotiate your agenda in the back room, and crafting a workable political platform that will hold the whole party, and not just your South Bronx (or wherever) district.
The Republicans have the honesty and cohesion to stand together, and you know where they stand... even if it is in the wrong place much of the time.
Elias
In the old days there were:
Country Club Republicans (Rockefeller , Henry Cabot Lodge)
Christian Pro Life Republicans (Jesse Helms, Pat Robertson)
Libertarian Republicans (Ron Paul, Jack Kemp)
Moderate Republicans(Gerald Ford)
Liberal Republicans (Jacob Javitz, Paul Sarbanes?)
Fiscal/Balanced Budget Republicans (David Stockman)
I probably missed three or four other distinctions. My question, has all this changed? Are They now just REPUBLICANS?
Steven Green,
Member Libertarian Party
Eeeerrrrrr, sorry, Sarbanes is a Democrat and has always been one.
Yeh, I thought he might be. Maybe it was some other liberal republican from Maryland. Not Spiro Agnew. I know there were a few truly liberal republicans in Wasington.
Yeh, I thought he might be. Maybe it was some other liberal Republican from Maryland. Not Spiro Agnew. I know there were a few truly liberal Republicans in Wasington.
Sorry, Steve, but Paul Sarbanes is a Democrat and one of Maryland's two US Senators. He's referred to as our "stealth" Senator as he keeps a low profile, but is well respected and intelligent and get a lot of things done both locally and nationalal.
[The Republicans have the honesty and cohesion to stand together, and you know where they stand... even if it is in the wrong place much of the time.]
I wouldn't say that the Republicans have the 'honesty and cohesion to stand together'...they have their factions to deal with as well. However, what has happenned there is that the progressive Republicans (traditional base) has taken a back seat to the 'yahoo' bible-thumpers who slowly crept into the party during the Ronny RayGun years and grabbed power.
No demographic group is as politically impotent as African Americans are today. Democrats take them for granted, ignoring their concerns because the know they'll vote democrat without exception. Republicans ignore them, not thinking it worth the effort to woo them. They should take the road latinos are taking. While still predominently Democratic, nearly one-third have voted Republican in recent elections, giving them a power base in both parties.
Very true, although your observation about Hispanics does not really apply in New York, where almost all vote Democratic. It's been said that black and Hispanic voting patterns in New York are largely indistinguishable. That isn't the case in most other parts of the country.
If you wanna play the location argument, I'd take Sierra Leone (ranked lowest on the UN HDI) over southern California any day. Sunnyside is a great place, I would hardly call it somewhere to regret moving to.
The only way to help African Americans advance is to invest in urban education and job growth in the inner cities. Since both require money, and you conservatives hate taxes more than you hate Bill Clinton, neither of them is going to happen anytime soon. IMPROVEMENT COSTS MONEY, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. If you want your tax cuts and a government that is so inadequately funded that it can't meet the needs of the people, then keep on truckin'. We are already there. Personally, I am in favor of a $5 Million salary cap, socialized healthcare, no free trade, and a $15 minimum wage. But then again, I guess Im just one of those pinko commies who are against the "American" way. Maybe I'll build a little shrine to Ronald Reagan in my house, that will make me feel like a real American.
God Bless America.
We have a Ronald Reagan shrine here in our Atrium. It's a bottle of Heinz Ketchup, his favorite vegetable. :)
LOL! I wonder if he remembers what ketchup is.
Truth be told, when he was inaugurated, I was sent down there by the TV station I was working for to celebrate his inauguration and to cover the return of the "hostages" ... had the lawn pass, white house pass, the whole enchilada. While I was setting up for my shot, Reagan came out with his press secretary ostensibly to welcome us to the White House and to my shock and amazement, HE THOUGHT HE WAS IN A MOVIE! No joke. He had his "script" and was going over it, asking where his mark was and WHEN THE MOVIE WAS GOING TO BE RELEASED!
I've made it a point not to mention any of this because of so many disciples, but Ronnie didn't know he was President FOR REAL even when he STARTED. That's why he was so good at it, he thought it was just another movie. And I don't wanna hear any qwap, I heard it for myself and saw more than enough OTHER demonstrations of how out of it he was while he was in office. That one scared me. And he WASN'T kidding. He may have been sharp when he was governor of California, but by the time he hit the White House, he was long gone. And that "bombing will begin in five minutes" bit he did for one of his radio speeches was a gag slipped to him by one of the other reporters and he read it just like the "real" scripts. He was genuinely THAT out of it.
His "handlers" did a pretty good job though, gotta hand THAT to them.
I want to recommend a book to you called "Reagan's War". You would find it very interesting for the main reason that the Soviet political and military heirarchy both believe that it was Reagan's trade and defense policies that led to the collapse of that half-ass system. You and Jersey can then trade notes while you help each other remove the hammer and sickle from your living rooms. Ha.
Actually, I already read it and realize that Reagan's guys bankrupted the Russians with a buildup they were ill prepared to counter. At the same time, there's a valid argument that the Russkies had ALREADY bankrupted themselves and that buildup only hastened the inevitable by only a ocuple of years. And it took the Clinton administration and paying those evil taxes to PAY IT OFF on our side. If ONLY we had kept the money in the treasury though and spent some of it on homeland security instead of a tax cut, maybe we'd still have those two big buildings downtown instead of a hole.
Sorry for putting it this way, but I wouldn't have minded paying the taxes to pay for intelligence, border security and a functional INS ... some things are WORTH paying for. And while we HAD the balanced budget, there was money available for Nancy and I to grow our business. Not anymore. We're those entrepreneurs the GOP talks so much about, but bitch-slaps around. We HAD employees, can't afford them anymore. It's SMALL business that provides jobs and growth and I ain't seen doowahdiddy doo from THIS "regime" ... that's why I'm so scornful. CLINTON put food on our table, Shrub ATE it. Sorry ...
Sorry to hear about your business reverses. I happen to believe the small business man is the backbone of this country and helps to create many new jobs when there is incentive to do so. I certainly would have those negative feelings if what happened to you happened to me, but I was fortunate to work for a school district where I was well taken care off and didn't have to fend for myself except for knowing where I wanted my money to go for my tax shelter. I hope conditions are favorable for you to start a new business again down the road.
Well ... we're hanging on by a thread here, mostly from customers in France, Germany, UK, New Zealand and Canada. Haven't done a sale to an American in nearly a week now just to give you an idea of how things are ... and the malls around here are EMPTY, which is shocking for a Friday night.
As to small business, if we go under, there's no hope of starting up another - the Small Business Administration was scuttled by Shrub and does not do loans anymore except for very special circumstances, and venture capital went away with the collapse of Enron. You can't start a business without money and you can't get money if your prior business went under. And just so you know, a MAJOR priority given by Shrub in his speech the other day is privatizing your social security, so I'd sock away as much as I can and join the rest of America in closing their wallet for the season.
But yeah, if people aren't going to be buying software, I'll have to do what pretty much everybody else has been doing lately, looking for a criminal enterprise to get into. THAT still pays. :)
It is certainly true that the Reagan Administration led the way to NATO's winning a strategic victory over the Wasaw Pact without a shot being fired (and then the Nobel Committee, not liking the USA very much that year, awarded a Peace Prize to International Physicians for Prevention of Nuclear War, a silly side show if there ever was one).
On the other hand, Mikhail Gorbachev earned his Peace Prize in spades. He was no democrat, really, but his courage and conviction and (relative to other Russians) openness will be remembered by Americans for a long time to come.
Oh Ron, do not get me wrong. I love Gorbachev. I even sent him a birthday card for his April 2, 1990 birthday. I believe he turned 59 that year. I would love to meet him someday and shake his hand and if he ever knocked on my door I would invite him in for dinner. He is still very popular with Americans. I was hoping that he could survive and use his talents to restructure his country but it was too far gone by them for him to succeed.
I feel the same way about him. A lion in history!
Of course, you'd need to either bone up on Russian or invite a translator along. Mr. Gorbachev doesn't speak English.
Are you implying that it's wrong to have a hammer and sickle in your living room??? Jeepers, I better rip down my Che Guevara posters before the guys with mirror glasses and black suits come and take me away.
Let me ask you this: Is is all right for a person to have a swastika hanging in his living room? I thought we'd agree on that. Well to me the hammer and sickle is just as sickening. They both stand for tyranny and oppression. Do you know that Stalin actually killed more people than Hitler did? So yes, both symbols should be consigned to the scrap heap
"Let me ask you this: Is is all right for a person to have a swastika hanging in his living room?"
Answer: yes. It's called freedom of speech and expression (First Amendment).
Now, it won't make the person very popular, and I will not associate with such a person, but it's his right to hang the swastika there if he wants to.
Ron, are you sure you ain't confusing the words "right" and "legal"? Just because something is legal and protected by the first amendment doesn't make it right.
"Ron, are you sure you ain't confusing the words "right" and "legal"? Just because something is legal and protected by the first amendment doesn't make it right. "
There's no confusion here. If you hang a swastika in your room, how does that directly hurt me? It doesn't - unless you come into my room and force me to hang one up too. That's not right, and unconstitutional.
I will interpret your action to be obnoxious, and will not support you. I will oppose you by speech and ballot box, but forcing you to take the swastika down by invading the privacy of your home is WRONG and illegal.
The Supreme Court has wisely noted that:
a) You can't legislate thought (George Orwell, anyone)
b) Obnoxious speech is precisely the type of speech most in need of constitutional protection
Hold that thought for a few months and we'll check back on the scoring. :)
It's hardly fair comparing a symbol of communism with a symbol of Naziism. The entire theory of Communism is based on improving the lives of the public and calling for more equality in life. Naziism is about militarism, arms, and hate. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Stalin didn't do the best job with communism, and I prefer Castro's interpretation more, but that's beside the point.
Castro? Castro? You had to have lost your marbles to say Castro's brand of Communism is good. Hell the people have been rationed in food for decades now. They have no hard currency and the economy is a basket case. If that is how Communism works then it's fair to say that it is a disgusting and useless system.
The reason why communism would never work and capitalism can is because of our nature. Whether we like it or not, truth is, human beings always feel the need to be better than the next person. Think about it...I mean REALLY think about it. How many times have we've said on this board essentially, "my idea is better than yours"? How many times in normal everyday life we hear "I can't stand this person because he (or she) is too..." basically implying the way the speaker behaves is better. Why have all of these sports competitions? Is it really just for fun, or a quest to prove "I'm better than you are"? We as human beings cannot stand the thought of being absolutely equal.
Socialism/Communism in its purest form is supposed to be absolute equality for everyone. The idea for the most part is solid. People are the ones who are flawed. Because of that, it'll never work. Capitalism on the other hand is tailor-made for human nature. We can feel "better" than the next person by having better clothes, fancier cars, more money etc...
I couldn't agree with you more.
I am a supporter of democratic socialism, but It would only work if:
A) everyone participated in it by their own free will.
B) People were the best they could possibly be.
Capitalism brings out the worst in people. Socialism would only work if everyone was an idealist, which isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
"Capitalism brings out the worst in people."
It also brings out the best in people. At the same time.
Sunnyside Sid should try teaching for a year or so and then offer his students this deal---as I did to my students so many times, knowing full well what the answer would be. I would tell them that we would jump "rap" and do current events the rest of the year and everyone would be guaranteed a "C" in the class. I would then ask to see a show of hands as to how many favored this deal. Out of 34 or 35, only two or three would ever raise their hands, mostly the tried and true losers in school. The rest rejected it out of hand because in our system we don't try to grind down everyone into a common thread. Whether we like it or not, all people are not equal in ability, talent, looks, luck and whatever. All people are equal in the eyes of nature and nature's God but nowhere else. And those who have superior talents must be given the opportunity of taking their talents as far as they can without anyone getting in their way and trying to stomp them down.
You're correct, not everyone is equal in ability. But it can also be argued that capitalism doesn't necessarily reward those who have superior talents. Capitalism is based on the notion that hard work and good business sense will get you to the top of the economic ladder. What happens though when you have kids and they inherit your wealth? Many of the "tried and true losers" you talked about may have parents who are wealthy, or they have a relative or friend who is rich. As a result they'll probably be at the top of the economic ladder without really earning it. On the other hand, you can be a hard-working straight A student with "superior talents" and wind up not being well-off in the future because of your lack of connections. I know this, I've seen people fit this category. After several generations, capitalism becomes more about who you know and less about hard work.
To be sure, I'm not a communist, capitalist or socialist. I'm just merely pointing the flaws in these systems.
Q, great post. I was not completely looking at the whole picture when I wrote my original post. Hopefully, we won;t see as much of who you know in the future because being in a global economy we need the very best our youth have to offer.
Any system that rejects the idea of a Supreme Being, not matter what religion, goes against the very nature of the human spirit. You cannot stamp out religion and while agnostics believe they have a valid point, Communists just say there is no God at all. That is, until they are about to die, as Mao said in September of '76, a day before he passed on--'I now go to join God'". Well what do you know.
Didn't Breshnev say somewhat the same thing in 1982, just days before he departed. Yes he did. What have we here, then? Leaders who don't even fully believe what they have preached their whole lives?
I am an atheist (secular humanist), and very happy and proud of it. Communism doesn't have to reject religion, only certain takes on it have done so. I believe someone's religion is their business and nobody elses, and that the government should be totally independent of religion. No tax money for religious organizations, no government involvement, and no religious references in government. This is the only way to practice a pure freedom of religion without discrimination and without bias.
Any system that rejects the idea of a Supreme Being, not matter what religion, goes against the very nature of the human spirit.
What makes you qualified to say what type of religion is the right one? If a Hindu told you: "Any system that rejects the idea of MULTIPLE supreme beings, no matter what religion, goes against the very nature of the human spirit" you would no doubt be insulted.
You cannot stamp out religion and while agnostics believe they have a valid point, Communists just say there is no God at all.
You're confusing a communist with an atheist. While traditional communists are atheists, atheists aren't always communists. I am an atheist, but am not a communist. Like most atheists, I don't care what religion other people practice, so long as they don't try to preach it to me or tell me that I am wrong in my beliefs.
While I've only been an atheist since I was 12, I never at a single time in my life believed in the afterlife. Neither of my parents believe in the afterlife. In fact, while I am open to others' beliefs in a supreme being (and to a concept of God as a metaphor for nature), I am openly hostile to beliefs in the afterlife.
What you fail to realize is that while you would not interfere with anyone's religion and neither would I, the Communists prevent you from exercising your right to worship if that's your desire. That makes Communism not only anti-religious freedom but oppressive and a horsedung idea.
What do I fail to realize? I fail to realize nothing. You are the one who fails to realize that communists and atheists are two different things.
Any system that rejects the idea of Jesus as a Supreme Being, no matter what denomination, goes against the very nature of the human spirit. You cannot stamp out Christianity and while Protestants believe they have a valid point, Jews and Muslims just say that Jesus is no son of God at all.
Now, how is that any different from what you said?
I may be livestock and thus susceptible to foot and mouth disease, but you have a bad case of foot in mouth disease.
Dewd ... as a friend ... there's no talking to dogmatics with no concept of individual cranial capacity, independent of the mothership. They'll believe what Rush and his ilk "implant" as consciousness. Over the past (almost a) week, we've lost Subtalk in "Shrubtalk" and the mindless rantings of the apostles of both sides who have HEARD the trush (available on cassette at this low price) ... what's the POINT in arguing with closed minds? I'm SURE you can appreciate the futility as surely as I can. It's as much a waste of time s preaching to the choir. Sometimes you've just gotta sit back and say, "you won. Enjoy what you prayed for" and let it go.
There's many of us here who approach everything with a "maybe I can learn something new here, and for most of us, we HAVE." Then there's those who just are so set in their rhetoric that arguing with them is pointless. HOPEFULLY there's still enough left of "America" that we can hold our own values without the labelling that we've seen rampantly here. A valid society maintains its value by constantly re-evaluating itself and adjusting. I'm afraid for now, too many of us are beyond that ... let the "kharma" seek its equilibrium, even if it's on the ground like a locomotive that just lost its ditch lights. :)
This is subtalk after all, we're here for the trains. As long as we keep dividing ourselves over non-related issues, well ... I know you're wiser than feeding the bears ... took me five DAYS to re-discover the truth myself. We have one thing in common here, let's not let the dividers win by making this place so unattractive that we all abandon what we like the most in our petty railfan lives.
"My Kharma ran over your dogma." Word. :)
Shma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai Echad
The prayer that observant Jews chant when they declare allegiance to one God, "our God" as the Hebrew goes.
If that works for you, great. Does it help give you comfort and meaning? Wonderful. More power to you.
I'm Jewish, but I am not observant of the rituals. There are people who follow an agnostic path, not really worrying about a God (neither accepting nor denying the existence of a supernatural being). Thankfully, the Constitution protects that as well.
When the hell did I ever mention that you have to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior? I never said that so get your head out of you know where. I said any regime that doesn't believe in a Supreme Being----that could mean God, Allah, Twin Gods, etc. No religion was specified and none was intended. The fact is Communists are thorough atheists who prevent people from exercising their religion. Read the history books. You can be an atheist if you want, that is your right, but as soon as you try to prevent others from worshipping then you are a Communist. Only they prevent the free exercise thereof. Now that ought to help you get it out. Please read this statement carefully.
For the last time, NOT ALL COMMUNISTS ARE ATHEISTS!
Get your thick skull out of your ass and pay attention!
Wake up and smell the coffee...you are not McCarthy and this isn't 1952.
"Not all Communists are atheists" You tell me which Communists you know that aren't atheists? The very nature of Marxism-Leninism is based on the idea that there is no God and that life ends in the grave. The only reason I don't retaliate and give you something for insulting me is that I insulted you and I'm allowing you to get your shot in. But your idea is ridiculous on the face of it because it completely ignores Marx and Lenin. Boy, I'll bet your Government teacher had a hell of time with you.
I'd be willing to bet you were no picnic either...
:0)
In high school? Ron, you never made a more accurate statement. Take a bow.
But the only thing that counts is that you've been very entertaining on Subtalk. May you keep posting here for another 100 years. :0)
(Actually, the most important thing is the Sea Beach line, but you get the idea).
STOP THIS POLOTICS CRAP ALREADY
Thank you sir, but the past few days I'm afraid you have been in the minority. But I'll still be in there pitching. Hope to keep hearing from you, too. Take care and have a great week.
Likewise.
Itr wouldn't be Subtalk without a little boxing, would it?
Live long and prosper, sir.
Likewise.
It wouldn't be Subtalk without a little boxing, would it?
Live long and prosper, sir.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=407499
No, you clearly said: "Any system that rejects the idea of a Supreme Being, not matter what religion, goes against the very nature of the human spirit."
You never specified that such a system only goes against the human spirit if it prevents others from believing in a supreme being.
You can be an atheist if you want, that is your right, but as soon as you try to prevent others from worshipping then you are a Communist.
Sorry, a communist is a person who believes that society will be better off with common ownership of property where each person does according to his ability and each receives according to his need. Someone who prevents others from worshipping how they want is a bigot, like you.
Only they prevent the free exercise thereof.
No. What about in theocratic regimes where you must worship only the state religion and no other? Those also prevent the free exercise thereof. And don't tell me that the Ayatollah is a communist.
I'm not talking about theocratic regimes. Pay attention. I said and will say for the last time that if you PREVENT someone from exercising their right to worship there is an excellent chance that is a Communist regime. I don't give a shit about about which regime forces someone to worship a certain way. That is not what we're arguing about right now. That is foranother time. And I don't need a little twirp like you calling me a bigot because you don;t what the hell you're talking about and I'm not about to have a little snot nose like you get away with it. If you want to keep this discussion civil keep the personal crap out of it and I will be glad to reciprocate.
Fred, control yourself, dude. The fact is, you got some definitions mixed up and these were clarified. Appreciate the learning opportunity you were offered.
Communist regimes do discourage religious practice because Marx compared religion to opium, an addictive substance. But that was not a central tenet, just one of its significant supporting points.
Consider this paradox, Fred: The State of Israel was founded in 1948 by a bunch of socialists and atheists as a place where Jews could practice their religion free of persecution. The religious right in Israel (the founders of the Likud party)did not come to power until decades later, and almost did not come to power at all, because some of their founders, serving in the Irgun, came very close to starting a civil war in the country. Had they done so, people like Menachem Begin might have been arrested and jailed or killed if they resisted the Israeli Army's move to disarm their little private militia.
American Pig described it correctly.
Communism and Socialism in its normal form isn't supposed to be atheist, or even anti-religion. This goes back to what I've said before. Again thanks to seriously flawed human beings, it's turned out that way. While you're right in saying that Communist regimes have targeted religion, this was done by flawed egotistic human beings who felt the need to feel like "the man". Religion, these leaders feared posed a threat to this image, so religion was targeted.
None of this is any of my business and I don't care very much about it one way or the other, but while there is no reason in practice why a Communist society should be athiest, my understanding is that the the classical Marxist and Marxist Leninist theories of communism - as systems of philosophic and ecomonic though - certainly haven't much time for religion.
Marxism is a materialist system (in the philosophical, not the prejorative sense) which sees societies, including their culture and religion, as the product of historical and ecomomic forces. I don't think Marx explicit militant atheism, I think rather he felt that in the final stage of Communism, religion would simply be irrelevant.
The Marxist Leninists were much more militantly atheist. This may be have been partly a reaction to the role of the church as an arm of the state in imperial Russia, but it is not ionconsistent with classical Marxism, at least as I understand it.
You're right. Marxist-Leninist version of communism was a human corruption of communism, formed by people not wanting to be entirely equal (which was a cornerstone of the original idea of communism). As you yourself mentioned, one major difference between pure communism and Marxist-Leninism is that Communism still allows free worship of religion. While original socialist/communist ideology doesn't exactly praise religion, it doesn't ban it either.
Marxist-Leninism on the other hand did not allow ANY practice of religion. It was strictly atheistic. This version of communism is the atheism Sea Beach Fred was referring to.
With that, I'll leave this whole thread alone.
"Any system that rejects the idea of a Supreme Being, not matter what religion, goes against the very nature of the human spirit. "
You're misreading it. More accurate: "Any system that rejects the freedom of people to believe as they like about a Supreme Being (or not a Supreme Being) goes against the very nature of the human spirit." That's more like it.
People are rationed equal amounts of food, and everybody is being fed. There are very few...if any...starving people in Cuba. Why should one person get more food than another? The US Dollar is the preferred method of currency in Cuba. They aren't the only country with a bad economy. Look at us, and look at Cuba's capitalist neighbors. Cuba is better off than most of them. And the reason Cuba's economy is so bad is because of our half-assed trade embargo that has lasted senselessly for the past 43 years. It's insane! Cuba gets over 2 million tourists a year from Canada, Europe, and yes, the United States. Americans aren't supposed to go to Cuba, but nobody enforces it.
Cuba has one of the best educational and medical programs in the world. Their economic troubles are largely the US's fault.
"Their (Cuba) economic troubles are largely the US's fault."
Not true. Castro is in trouble because he lost his primary sponsor (the USSR) and has been too inflexible to change his political relationships with other countries, especially the US.
It may be good for us to improve relations with Cuba, but we don't need Castro as much as he needs us. So it's incumbent on him to make the first move. That's reality.
Oh, yeah, you forgot to mention that Cuba is harboring Joann Chesamard.
Joann Chesimard-- Cop Killer>8-<
Yes, true.
Offer a carrot, though, and Fidel will gladly part with that criminal.
That's it Larry Liberal, blame the United States for the problems of other countries. Could it be that collectivized agriculture blunts human incentive to such an extent that people simply don't give an effort? Every hear of those boat people? If Cuba is such a paradise why do they want to leave or defect or defecate on that island paradise? Have you read what those people have said when they arrive here? They sure as hell don't talk about the wonderful land they left behind. And most don't get enough to eat. When food is severely rationed as it has been for most of Castro's ill begotten regime, you never can say there is enough to eat.
I know from a Cuban refugee that the rice ration was five pounds per person per month. You call that being well fed. Tell you what. If you agree I will pay your bus fare from where you live to Fort Bliss Texas where you can take a bus toMexico to catch a plane to Cuba where you would partake in their great system. You know what? You would never go for two reasons.
1. You're too chicken shit to leave this for that.
2. You have more brains and common sense than you have shown in our inane posts defending a system that can't be defended.
Whoa, nice to see Sea Bitch Freddie boy is so open-minded to other opinions.
People defect from Cuba because people have differing opinions, its simple as that. If you don't agree with the way a country is run, then by all means move out. Nobody should be forced to live in a political/economic system that they don't agree with. Of course they speak ill of their homeland, why would they leave if they liked it there? There are certain aspects of our government that I don't agree with...such as our leaders and our capitalist system. There are also aspects that I do agree with, such as democracy and small business ownership. I am not a communist, I am merely a sympathizer who has mixed feelings on the issue. I am, however, a supporter of pure democratic socialism, which is a very mainstream idea in Europe. Would it ever work here? Probably not. Does that bother me enough to leave? I don't think so. Could I leave if i wanted to? Probably not. Due to inadequate public education when it comes to foreign language, I would have a very difficult time dealing with living in a place that doesnt speak English.
Ive spent two months living in Cuba with friends of mine, and we never starved. There was always plenty of food for all of us. Before you talk shit that you don't know a damn thing about, why don't you spend some time living there?
Good Point! Disagreement with socialist politics is one reason why I left New York City for Austin, Texas. Yes, Austin is liberal-democratic, but it is in TEXAS.
Look at your taxes in New York and see what socialism got you.
If the government adequately meets the needs of the people (which it hasnt been doing lately), I have absolutely no problem with paying taxes.
Can't expect government benefits without paying for them.
The problem with taxes is that they should be PROGRESSIVE, so that rich people pay a higher percentage and thus bear an equal burden.
Taxes are progressive, but not progressive enough.
I agree. Instead of giving tax cuts to the richest 1%, we should be taxing them at LEAST 50%, and relieving the tax burden on America's working class. Use the rich people's money to improve the quality of life for working Americans, and give them top-notch education, universal healthcare, and things like that.
Then the trickle UP theory would make the poor get rich and the rich get richer but the greedy idiots can't see that.
And stop taxing the poor (meaning, raise the minimum annual income which is subject to any level of income tax).
This is something that has been supported in the past by both conservatives and liberals.
should be PROGRESSIVE, so that rich people pay a higher percentage and thus bear an equal burden.
How, pray tell, does a HIGHER rate lead to an equal burden?
The Progressive Tax is BULLSHIT! It should be eliminated!
The reason *why* it is bullshit is because of all of the loopholes put in place for the purposes of social and environmental engineering.
I am not against social and or environmental engineering, but it can not be done on the vehicle of the tax code, if for no other reason that that vehical does not go to that destination! YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE! If you need a social or an enviromental result: Pass a Law, and be done with it.!
What these attempts have done is to open loopholes so that those whom you would have taxed at a higher rate end up PAYING AT A LOWER RATE!
You cannot tax the RICH that way, because the rich define WHAT MONEY IS! They are the ones who will tell you what money is and what it is not and how much your money will be worth. It is the rich taxpayer who decides what is income and what is not. For the poor schlub, it is his boss who submits a W2 form who decides what money the guy has and can be taxed.
The graduated income tax is here to stay and it will never go away: that is a well understood political reality with which even the rich can live. They would *like* a lower rate, and what the rest of us should be willing to do is to negeotiate a new tax law that evens somewhat the tax rates, but at the same time, eliminates all personal tax loopholes. EVERYBODY weither earning $10,000 or $10,000,000 a year should USE THE SHORT FORM! You earn x$, your rate is y%, your tax is xxx$, SEND IT IN, Thank You. no ifs, ands, buts, or loopholes. (PERIOD). Even Rush Limbaugh cannot complain about that!
The same more so in spades applies to corporate income taxes!
Make the corporate tax rate 0.5% and then apply it to GROSS INCOME not on profits after taxes expenses etc etc etc and more etc and before deductions for corporate greed. YOU TOUCHED THE MONEY: YOU PAY THE TAX!
Get the Loopholes OUT of the tax law!
You cannot SOAK THE FAT CATS, because they are the ones who make the money and the jobs and the products that you buy from them, and all they will do is tun around and GOUGE YOU FOR THE DIFFERENCE! That's business. And that is the part of the cycle that needs to change.
Elias
How, pray tell, does a HIGHER rate lead to an equal burden?
There are certain costs that everyone must bear. You need basic food, clothing and shelter. Beyond that, most things are luxuries. Poor people pay a higher percentage of their income on basic goods and services. Therefore paying a higher percentage for rich people is an equal burden.
$6000 for a person who makes $40,000 a year is worth a lot more to him than $6,000,000 to someone who makes $40,000,000 even though it is still 15%. You can do a lot more with $34M than with $34K
I don't advocate robbing the rich blind, but I don't believe in a flat tax.
I also believe in higher rates for capital gains taxes than salary taxes. Along with a hefty penalty for offshore tax shelters.
As for exemptions, they should also be eliminated, except deductions for child expenses and the like. Maybe for charity too.
If the government adequately meets the needs of the people (which it hasnt been doing lately), I have absolutely no problem with paying taxes.
New Yorkers pay high taxes but get diddly squat in return. Tax revenues are used to subsidize a rapacious health care morass, support union featherbedding, and keep layers of redundant bureaucrats happy. Meanwhile, we still can get the %#@*& Second Avenue Subway built. Your tax dollars (not) at work.
If the government adequately meets the needs of the people (which it hasnt been doing lately), I have absolutely no problem with paying taxes.
New Yorkers pay high taxes but get diddly squat in return. Tax revenues are used to subsidize a rapacious health care morass, support union featherbedding, and keep layers of redundant bureaucrats happy. Meanwhile, we still can't get the %#@*& Second Avenue Subway built. Your tax dollars (not) at work.
I agree with you. Hence why I said that the government hasn't been using tax money to meet the needs of its people.
Aw bs. Come out and say your a Communist and be done with it. It's not illegal to be one in this country. I happen to know two and they are as screwed up as you are, but at least they are honest with themselves. And don't tell me if there was free migration for Cubans that most wouldn't leave that pisshole at the first opportunity. You can call be Sea Bitch if that turns you on but one thing I'm not is full of %$#@. I say what I am and that;s it, but you beat around robin hood's barn saying your everything but the truth. You very words make you a Marxist, if not in actuality, then certainly in spirit. And personally, it is my opinion that you are a dork.
Nice to see you are resorting to personal attacks instead of legitimate attacks on my viewpoints.
I am NOT a communist, and I have mixed feelings on the issue. I don't feel that pure Marxist Communism could ever work, and I don't believe that Communism is the best political system. I feel that mild Democratic Socialism is the best political system thought up, but it isn't the most practical. I also think that Cuba has had the most effective socialist system in world history for several reasons. Is their system perfect? Far from it. Is it better than the USSR, North Korea, and Vietnam? By far.
A very small percentage of Cubans flee from Cuba. Most of which are looking for jobs, not escaping a political system. In world history, a very small percentage of migrants have fled from political oppression, most have fled due to hunger, no jobs, or something of that nature. If Cubans don't agree with the political system, they can have another revolution, or they can leave. Nobody should live under a political system they completely disagree with. But you can't say that Cubans would be better off if they lived in some of the other Caribbean countries, because thats an outright lie. Cuba has one of the highest standards of living on the planet. Nearly all of Cuba's free-market Caribbean neighbors are much worse off than Cuba is.
"Nearly all of Cuba's free-market Caribbean neighbors are much worse off than Cuba is."
A meaningless statement. Cuba doesn't have many "free market" neighbors in the same vein that the US operates, so you really have nothing to compare Cuba to. Right-wing and left-wing dictatorships don't count.
An example of a success story is Costa Rica. Mexico isn't free-market, really, since too many large industries are still state-owned or state-dependent. Ditto for countries like Argentina.
Nonsense. Cuba is an economic basket case and if the floodgates were open the people would leave en-masse, except for the aparatchicks. However, since we aren't going to convince each other of anything I will drop this as of now. One caveat. I should not have called you a dork, that is personal, and I apologize for it. Perhaps down the road we can find some things we have in common and start a positive dialogue. Some of my closest companions on Subtalk started out as adversaries. Have a nice day.
Isn't disagreeing with our capitalist system but agreeing with small business ownership kinda contradictory?
I'll show you the corporate books sometime. Government gets about 78% of it. I think Putin would give us a better deal. Nah, come to think of it, I already DID the aparatchik thing on the Paturkey farm. Nevermind. Pork good, Bruno bad. :)
Great idea posting here - perhaps your old SDS buddies will be able to find you.
Opportunities in NYCTA have abounded over the years and the Car Equipment Department offers higher salaries but Afican AMERICANS have been told not to accept 'manual labor that is dirty work.' So guess who has taken their place??? Clue: Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day and Thanksgiving are 'open holidays.'
I was pulling your leg. When I lived in Long Island City years ago, we played baseball against a team from Sunnyside called the Beebe Avenue Boys. We had one hell of a rivalry and no one from LIC cared for people in Sunnyside. It was like the Hatfield and McCoys. But to take Sierra Leone over Southern California, please wake up from your stupor and smell the freaking coffee.
Folks, a lot of phony pitches are made on the part of BOTH parties. I think that many African-Americans (and for that matter many minorities) are fed up with the BS. Politicians say all of these high-sounding ideas, promising change. People love what they hear and elect them as their representatitives. Very little in the way of change happens where you live. Generally speaking, you're STILL at the bottom rungs of the economic ladder. Then two, four and six years later, these same politicians are back again wanting your vote. The process repeats itself. Arguably, since the 60's, not much progress has been made by African-Americans.
As for African-Americans being politically impotent, I'm not so sure about that. I've heard of several cases in this past election, particularly the South, where their not voting (probably because of what I've just talked about) cost the Democrats several seats.
"I want to impress upon my Republican friends that public transportation can go a long way to alleviate some of our dependence on foreign oil. Anyway guys, wish me luck."...do not hold your breath
thats why in cali' we voted democrat !!
how do you like the gold line construction progress ??.....nice ?
I love the Gold Line construction and they seem to getting more done every time I ride the 210 Freeway (that's right easterners, we have free access to our roads in the Golden State like not you philistines in the rainy and muggy East). I want to be on the first car out of Pasadena when the line opens next July. How much of it is going to be underground, I wonder?
i think thru 2 sections only but below street level only
under pasadena in some downtown areas and then soimewhere in the
middle of the route !
i am going to tak a sunday off to go out and shoot the stations
the p 2000s will be fun to ride on ......
Well Fred, it's tomorrow now.
What did they say?
Well BB all I can say is that most on this board are not glad they are Republicans because most are not, and, therefore, did not like what happened on Tuesday. I, on the other hand, am elated.
But you didn't answer the question...what did they say about mass transit funding? That *was* the question, right?
Knew they didn't give a hang. In all the years I've paid the slightest attention to politics, the republicans have consistently been the ones who will tell you anything you want to hear, get into office, and do the oil companies bidding while tossing the economy, and actively seeking war. Started with Nixon, and hasn't changed one note of the tune since.
They said that this is one strong possibility for alleviating the oil crisis we are in. If they could really fund reliable and cheap public transportation, whether light rail or subway it would be a possible way to go. Sorry I didn't answer your question, but, as I said, most Republicans are not against mass transit. What they worry about are cost overrides and going over budget because of boon doggles. Hey, let's face it, Conservatives happen to know the value of a buck better than liberals do-----for the most part.
Well that's all well and good, but I have very little faith in what they say, considering that the oil companies are the $$$ behind the reupublican party. I don't see why they would be concerned about transit- what would be the motivation behind diminishing the largesse for big oil derived from more highways that end up mandating more drilling.
As to modern "liberalism" (which is actually the center), let me remind you that fiscal responsibility has been the hallmark of the Democrats for the past 10 years now, and in the years I spent being able to watch government closely (while Selkirk was working for the state), the largest amount of wasted money occurred in large construction projects, porkways to nowhere, and similar, while operation budgets were being squeezed to the bone. In NY, it's the republicans that budgeted themselves these wasteful "pork-jects", like Joe Bruno's baseball stadium and the now-infamous Amtrak station. I doubt things will go much differently on the Federal level, look at the recent history of House appropriations....
[I, on the other hand, am elated.]
Elatd to the point of having to change ya underwear?
You'll be elated to know that roll of film with that picture of you guys at Coney Island is being developed as I write this. That picture you wanted should be in the mail by the end of the week.
Thanks. For a moment I thought you defected to the other side.
Since the new head of transportation in the Senate is Virgina's John Warner -- a rail buff according to Tuesday's Washington Post -- I'm not expecting as much change to mass transit funding as some people fear (Plus Warner has to satisfy his suburban Washington D.C. constituents and D.C. traffic beats Los Angeles and Houston as being the absolute, totally most abominable in the entire country. If the House and Senate were to cut mass transit funding with the proposed WMATA extensions in Virginia coming up, Republicans there would be in a heap of trouble in 2004 and 2006).
I also don't think, outside of Bush getting his judicial nominations out of committee and his Homeland Security bill passed, there's going to be as much change in legislation enacted as Republicans hope and Democrats fear (based on what I saw down in the Texas Legislature in 1999 after Bush's re-election), but we'll find out over the next 18 months.
Well maybe your post will help alleviate the fear that most Dems have about possible slashed transit budgets by the Republicans. To me this whole frightening display by the lefties is one big canard. There will be no slashing of any kind.
With Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins in Maine, Lincoln Chafee in Rhode Island and Arlen Spector in Pennsylvania, any hard move to the right on things that someone like Tom DeLay might want -- whether it be cutting transit funding or naming ultra-conservative judges to the Supreme Court -- would never get through the Senate. Those four Republicans (and possbily some others like McCain on certain domestic issues) aren't going to vote that way, because it's not in their interest in their home stuff.
That's why I find some of this garment-rendering, teeth-gnashing, wrist-slitting talk so funny, the same way it was when some Republicans were acting the same way over Clinton on policy matters in 1992, 1996 and 1998 (Bill was always the pragmatist and rarely went against provailing opinion, so while his private life was a mess, he was never as liberal as Republicans made him out to be).
On social programs in Texas -- especially the school funding reform battle -- Bush (with Rove as his advisor) had as much trouble from the right as from the left in the legislature -- the ultra-conservatives ran candidates against the ones Bush supported for all the down-ballot statewide offices in 1998 (including the current governor Perry and the Senator-elect Cornyn), and the political deals Bush worked out with Speaker Pete Laney and the other House Democrats in 1999 were killed by a procedural action by a Dallas right wing rep, not the liberal Democrats in the legislature. My guess is domesticlly in 2003, there will be conservative Republicans as pissed off about some of Bush's agenda by this time next year as will be some liberal Democrats, though admittedly not as many on the right as on the left.
The U.S. Senate leans towards inertia unless there is a major, major issue before it or a very strong majority leader, and since Trent Lott's about as sharp as a bowling ball, he's not going to be ramming much through that a unified Democratic opposition couldn't block. And while Bush will get his judge nomination to a full Senate vote, any nominee too far to the right would get nixed by the northeast Republican Senators. The same thing goes for mass transit funding. Cuts might get rammed through the House, but if they are, they'll probably die a slow death in Warner's Senate committee.
The U.S. Senate leans towards inertia unless there is a major, major issue before it or a very strong majority leader, and since Trent Lott's about as sharp as a bowling ball, he's not going to be ramming much through that a unified Democratic opposition couldn't block.
Transit funding is almost by definition not a major issue, at least from the Senate's perspective. That could be both good and bad, depending on the Senate's overall attitude toward transit. Sometimes it's best to be a small fish and slip under the radar screen (is that a mixed metaphor?)
Transit buffs: It's MCCAIN, stupid ... screw Warner, he COULDA had a 12-9 (V8's don't cut it) ... but we're talking "oncoming train, elevation 42, declination 12, FIRE!" ... Warner's a poosy compared to McCain's Viagra-reinforced, take no prisoners, put that beech ont he ground attitude. After all, Grayhound WAS an Arizona (now Texass) company ... if he puts every locomotive on the ground, MAYBE gray running mutt will come BACK to Phoenix. :)
But no, these be right wingers ... the more Lionels they have running in THEIR neck of the woods, the fewer Lionels NEW YORK gets. Hell, where's that 9/11 money anyway? NEW YORKERS should pay attention to that money, especially since SHRUB stiffed us for it, you're about to make up the difference - that's *WHY* New York is $14 billion behind (was $12 billion day before yesterday, whoops - spot the TREND yet?) because for all the pandering, Shrub did *NOT* ante up the bucks for 9/11, even YET ...
Glad to be a republican? PHUCK THEM. We got left holding the bag. And now that the election's OVER, PHUCK US ... just in case I said all the things *I* have been saying the last few days ... I commune with the cogs in the government wheel up here in Albany, can't AVOID the reality in the world up here, fresh sausage made daily ...
Anyhoo, NYS is WAY short. If Amtrak sends us a bill, we CANNOT pay it. If Transit needs cash to pay those checks for the R-160's, we ain't GOT it ... bouncy, bouncy ... but hey, wait for the official word in mid-January, ignore that Arnine motorman who glanced at the speech ahead of release time. :)
Yea, Amtrak's in trouble, especially after this week's "Throw John Warner off the Train" incident in Virginia (or at the very least, Gunn, like Lucy, will have a lot of splainin' to do). But even the people in McCain's home state, especailly around Phoenix, are figuring out that building another highway isn't going to solve their transportation problems.
Yeah, but if only Warner had been 12-9'd, it would have been an "unfortunate accident at a critical time during the election" and Jesse Ventura could have nominated a replacement. Whoops, wrong state. I *hope* our fears are wrong, and probably they ARE ...
Only reason I say that is that Ashcroft was SO offended by the teat on the statue of justice, that he stuck us with a blue curtain of more than Martha Stewart original price excess bill to cover UP the teat. Proves that he IS a teat. Still, I'm not vaginally impaired, and thus I am CAPABLE of being a republican. But not to fear, the NOUVEAU TALIBAN will be too busy scaring the CRAP out of wimmen and limiting THEIR rights, that NONE of us will GET ANY anymore ... and THUS, we SHOULD be concerned about Amtrak since we ain't women. "We're for the rights of the unborn, once you're born you're on your own ... and if you AIN'T pregnant already, the ministry of ministerial services shall MAKE it so ... IF you're white."
Don't mind me, I'm one of those liberals who mistakenly think WOMEN are PEOPLE too ... don't mind me, ignore that Taliban behind the curtain. :(
Hey J, you said it better than I ever did. That ought to comfort some of the others on board who are fearful as hell of transit cuts when they shouldn't be.
When it comes to politics, I guess it's a matter of picking the lesser of the two evils. I've never been a fan of politics, but from a railfan's perspective we're probably going to be in some serious trouble two years from now.
What I'M glad about is I didn't check out Subtalk since Wednesday. So I missed all the political bloviation over the last 3 days.
It is still going on Steve so you're going to have to tune in. What started out as a celebration by me and a few others has taken on a life of its own. My worry is while all this is going on who's looking out for my Sea Beach. You guys out there make sure they do no more dissing of my train.
...that someone renamed this thread? ;o)
I'll be glad when Fred answers the question.....
What did the RNC say to him about mass transit funding?
Which is what this thread was originally all about.
Actually I think you *do* have your answer. :)
no answer is an answer all it's own...
Well, turns out there WAS an answer ... I posted that before I had gotten to it. However, it's your typical "political gladhanding, "whaddyawannahear", oh yeah, we're for whatever you want" ... we'll see what happens. Ain't no subways here, so I won't notice.
ACTUALLY ... with all the emotional displays of the past few days and us all getting snookered with rhetoric here, we *HAVE* had a demonstration RIGHT HERE in NEW YORK of the GOP future of rail projects, and I COMPLETELY forgot about it ...
CDTA proposed and obtained funds to build a commuter rail/light rail system in order to alleviate gridlock on the Northway between Saratoga and Albany ... and the project got the green light thanks to money provided by Senators Hillary and Chuckie. When it came down to it, the proposed route would have run along existing trackage and was almost ready to actually RUN A TRAIN when Rep John Sweeney (repub) had a canary because the train would not run through HIS district.
So it got delayed, studies made which determined that it would have been insanely expensive to reroute the trains through his district. Result? He yanked the money, no railroad AT ALL ... I forgot about that. So now, we have NOTHING. So much for the GOP ... there's yer PROFF ...
ACTUALLY ... with all the emotional displays of the past few days and us all getting snookered with rhetoric here, we *HAVE* had a demonstration RIGHT HERE in NEW YORK of the GOP future of rail projects, and I COMPLETELY forgot about it ...
CDTA proposed and obtained funds to build a commuter rail/light rail system in order to alleviate gridlock on the Northway between Saratoga and Albany ... and the project got the green light thanks to money provided by Senators Hillary and Chuckie. When it came down to it, the proposed route would have run along existing trackage and was almost ready to actually RUN A TRAIN when Rep John Sweeney (repub) had a canary because the train would not run through HIS district.
So it got delayed, studies made which determined that it would have been insanely expensive to reroute the trains through his district. Result? He yanked the money, no railroad AT ALL ... I forgot about that. So now, we have NOTHING. So much for the GOP ... there's yer PROFF ...
A typical tale of woe, but it doesn't prove anything about Republican attitudes toward transit. What it does illustrate is political egomania. And that's something that affects both Democrats and Republicans.
The money for the railroad was transferred by Sweeney and Bruno to a train station in Saratoga ... a SECOND Joe Bruno Amtrak station. But yeah, I guess you're right, it doesn't mean a thing. Republicans are good, anyone else can ride in the back of the bus. Whoops, no bus either.
The fact then, by your admission, is that the actual politicans who make the decisions are going to decide what is in their own personal interest.....agreed, as this case demonstrates....
Next fact: Commuters don't bring in the kind of campaign cash that oil companies and construction companies do.
Therefore, any self-serving politican will vote for the highway project and the drilling project (gotta get oil/make gas to fill up all those 10mpg SUVs) over the subway project.
It's tough to compete against big oil. Sorry.
To Dave Pirrmann:
How about deleting this whole thread? It is just polarizing railfans who normally get along fine when discussing trains. When I want to discuss politics I go to other forums!! (for ex. the mideast forum of historychannel.com) I come here to discuss trains, for ex. how the R1-9's are much better than any other train ever made and how the 142's & 143's suck.
My apologies for being part of the problem. What started out as something IMHO legitimate-questions about the future of transit funding based on the outcome of the past weeks election- turned typically ugly.
Yes the R-9 is a better train, and is fun to run.
The only chance I've had to ride the 143's was last Christmas (such is the fate of living upstate) when they were still in testing. They're very high-tech, very nice and have a lot of gewgaws but one has to wonder how they are holding up with the rigors of day to day operation?
For all their "heavy metal" the R-9s held up through years of service, and even today, with some TLC, the one at Branford is still real sweet!
Here we go again - back to the "good old days."
By today's standards, for passenger safety and comfort, the R143 blows the museum pieces away. The R9 was wonderful when I rode it as a kid. I'll always ejoy visiting them in the Transit Museum.
Time to move on. You don't drink your milk from a sippie cup anymore, and you don't ride R9s in regular service anymore. Get over it.
I don't ride anything in regular service anymore. I live 200+ miles north of here. Last time I was near a subway, I ran it.
BTW: it was an R-9, earlier a Redbird. Both are wonderful trains to operate.
:o)
For all their aura and musical sounds, the R-1/9 family late in life was a most uncomfortable train. R-4s were plagued with dead and dying motors; while the R-6-2 held up pretty well, some of the others in the Jamaica pool suffered from door troubles; and the fleet as a whole seemed to have lost its ability to govern the heat - it would come on in summer and fail in winter. The Eastern Division R-7a and R-9 were TERRIBLE with their back-breaking fiberglas bench seats. Deferred maitenance made a mess out of the last days of these glorious and classic trains.
Don't get me wrong - offered the ambience of the R-6-2 or the GE R-9 over more recent equipment (from R42 up), I would gladly take the older.
wayne
And that was precisely the problem, the abandoned MAINTENANCE. I acn attest to many attempts to kick breakers to restore heat only to have the bat handle fall off in my gloves, or to hold for a minute or two and then kick out. Each car had three breakers, so you had three chances to win for heat. Conversely, other breakers would fail in the closed position so that they could not be turned off. Car equipment DID have the replacement parts too which made the situation all the more insufferable. Crews such as myself KNEW how to deal with fussy doors, and in the worst of conditions where they wouldn't loosen up and move once the car got warm, we'd lift and lock them out, but usually they worked (maybe a pair of leaves would be SLOW) but generally they didn't do as poorly as their newer counterparts (27's and 30's, 'nuff said).
As to the motors, sometimes you had them, sometimes you didn't. There was a whole RAFT of lower numbered cars that actually had TRAILER trucks on them as motors were borrowed to fix other cars. What a lot of folks weren't aware of though was how many of the cars' number plates did NOT match the numbers on the decals inside. One way of getting dogs through the system I s'pose was to swap car numbers to make the reports look better. :)
Fortunately, I didn't get to see many of them with the plastic seats, but I can tell ya, the torn wicker was HELL on the legs. And if you think it was bad for the geese, you should have SEEN the condition of some of the cabs in them. Still, after seeing and running 1689 at Branford, they COULD have kept running if only they'd been maintained, and 1689 is the PROFF of that ...
Yes, 1689 has been well-cared for and looks and runs great. It was a kick to see just how sluggish its doors were before it had fully charged up. What can I say - I love to play conductor.:) Handle time was fun just the same.
IMHO the R-1/9s fell victim to the prevailing attitude of "new cars are on the way anyway, so we don't care about the old ones anymore".
The sluggish doors were quite normal, that's why when you noticed it and pointed it out, I was so nonplussed about it, grabbed the rubber, gave it a yank and voila! All part of the wakeup ritual in the yards, and that morning it was JUST like Coney. At least we didn't have to cut any out for the trip. :)
That was the reason why I fired up the fans and opened the roof vents, to try to circulate some air in there (and opened the door panels) ... it did help and fortunately, no door problems at all once we had geese. All part of knowing the little dears. Ed and the caretakers at Branford did a WONDERFUL job of maintaining the car. Words cannot DESCRIBE how grateful I am!
I think I may add an acknowledgement to Eddie S. for his part in the museum's acquisition of 1689 in the first place.
He did a lot of work on her too. He chose WISELY! :)
Yep, he sure did. I'll bet Eddie had 1689 picked out for the museum even before it was retired.
Don't forget about their marvelous "symphony of sounds".:)
I'm actually surprised you didn't bring a "recording device" ... while she was still in the barn grunting and hissing, she sounded pretty much like your happy IND car at a terminal. :)
I already have Heypaul's tape plus that CD you sent me. All the sounds are there.
You're a cheap date. :)
Yeah, I must admit I haven't said a whole lot about subways lately. Politics is a shady, depressing world, where money and might makes right. Talking about subways is a little more cheerful.
The more I see the R-143's, the more I love them. I think they are the best of the newer trains. I only hope people don't scratch them up too badly.
Sorry for not closing the html!!!
How's it now? Better?
Better, but I guess the other one was better for our almost blind subtalkers.....
My apologies for being part of the problem. What started out as something IMHO legitimate-questions about the future of transit funding based on the outcome of the past weeks election- turned typically ugly.
Yes the R-9 is a better train, and is fun to run.
The only chance I've had to ride the 143's was last Christmas (such is the fate of living upstate) when they were still in testing. They're very high-tech, very nice and have a lot of gewgaws but one has to wonder how they are holding up with the rigors of day to day operation?
For all their "heavy metal" the R-9s held up through years of service, and even today, with some TLC, the one at Branford is still real sweet!
I liked the Pullman-built, GE-equipped R-6-2, with their funky fans, fancy interior flourishes and flat-out SPEED. These cars hauled ass.
wayne
I remember them well ... alas, they spent most of their lives in QUEENS. :(
I still love the D Type Triplexes and they will always be my favorite car. They were majestic and powerful and they were the only trains used on my Sea Beach when I was a kid.
I'm the one who started the thread about being glad to be a Republican. I did it because I felt good and wanted a little comeback from some of my Democrat friends. It seemed to take on a life of its own. Since I started it, I'm now asking everyone to end it. I have only one favor to ask in return.\\\\\\
PLEASE CALL THE TA AND ASK THEM, BEG THEM, THREATEN THEM, SUCK UP TO THEM, DO ANYTHING NECESSARY TO GET MY SEA BEACH BACK ON THE MANNY B IN 2004.
The Sea Beach belongs on the bridge. No doubt about it. And it should be on the express track under Broadway.
["PLEASE CALL THE TA AND ASK THEM, BEG THEM, THREATEN THEM, SUCK UP TO THEM, DO ANYTHING NECESSARY TO GET MY SEA BEACH BACK ON THE MANNY B IN 2004."]
OK, and what if Hillary C. is the politician that arranges it for you?
I am so desperate that I would gladly accept hilarious Hillary to do my bidding for me. Now that should tell you something.
[PLEASE CALL THE TA AND ASK THEM, BEG THEM, THREATEN THEM, SUCK UP TO THEM, DO ANYTHING NECESSARY TO GET MY SEA BEACH BACK ON THE MANNY B IN 2004.]
For starters why not move back to NYC? That way you could actually RIDE your 'prized' Sea Beach Line instead of talking about it from afar?
Nothing against New York City because it's the greatest city in the world as far as I'm concerned, but I am a Californian. When you live in a place for 48 years certain comfort zones are established. However, you could use your influence, which I hear is plenty, to get the job done. I'm told the TA is scared shitless of you. So do me a favor, get it done and the drinks are one me when I come to New York again next spring.
Actually, prior to 1967 (that being the point when the R-7a and R-9 were transferred to Eastern Division), most of the R-6 family was based out of Concourse and ran on the "D" train
wayne
I didn't move to Concourse territory until 1968, so I missed them there. I DO remember seeing them on the Queens lines though. We ended up with the 7's and 9's if I remember correctly and a sheetload of R4's. They're all still one big happy Arnine family to me though. :)
note: this is why I call them "Arnines" ... solves a lot of argument. Heh.
That's OK; we know what you're talking about.:)
FWIW all of the R-6s and up got headlights whereas most of the R-4s and all of the R-1s did not. If the D trains you operated didn't have headlights (and none of the handful of prewar D trains I rode on after 1967 didn't), the lead motor at least was an R-4.
Well, now that you know where the switch is located, there were many R-NINES that I ran that didn't have headlights either. :0
Can you imagine 1233 and 1277 in the same train? They probably ran together at some point.
Bing Bong: Pleae don't feel that you are part of the problem. The same thing happend recently when Dan Lawrence posted a question about the New Jersey Senate Race and the thread got hijacked by some foamer who should know better. It was nice to meet you and Selkirk at Branford.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks, I was trying to avoid getting so deeply into the fray, but it just kind of happened. Sometimes I have to threaten Selkirk to make sure he keeps his cool.
It was great to meet you too, and I hope you had fun at Branford!
:o)
80)
Heh. Now THERE'S a way for the TA to make some chump change ... little coin-operated schpritzers of "parfum" near the doors. :)
I'm not so sure it would be the financial panacea you may think. After all, you can walk into any department store and they'll spray you for free...why pay? :o)
OK ... time to retool the fun factory ... OK ... how about we do something along the lines of a HUGE Halon dump ... insert a dollar on the platform and the whole car gets a HUGE cloud of bouquet - no more locking out a car owing to big stinky, and that "fresh country scent" will fill the tunnels. Hmmm ... better put down the quack pipe, huh? :)
TRYING to move away from "Shrubtalk" ...
Hey bucko, I *know* what "fresh country scent" *is*. I really don't think that's what they want in those enclosed tunnels.
Moo.
"R1-9's are much better than any other train ever made and how the 142's & 143's suck."
and the r-142s suck too! (no railfanwindow ) !!
If R1-9 was the greatest, (and they are great) why did the BMT standards run all the way to the summer of 1969? Did they not start before WWI?
Actually, the R1-9s were purchased for the the IND, post WW1, pre WW2. They ran from the 30s, with their final demise in the early 80s. IMHO, if they had kept them up they'd probably still be running today. The R-9 1689 ran beautifully up at Branford last month. Shows what some TLC can do! :o)
The standards were terrific, but they had gotten tired by the time the left the railroad. Both ran for about the same amount of time- 50 years. I wonder of they'll see the same lifespan with the new cars they're buying now.....
>>They ran from the 30s, with their final demise in the early 80s.<<
Sorry to correct you, that should read late 70's, March 31, 1977 to be exact. And #1689 was on that consist on that (J) train.
The BMT Standards ran their last mile on the Myrtle-Chambers (M) line on August 4th, 1969. There has been some chatter that they may have ran one trip, but that's gossip.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ooops..I stand corrected. I thought they had lasted a little longer, but I was living upstate by that time, not riding anywhere near regularly. They were gone by 1982, when I was commuting from New Paltz to work in Manhattan, never saw one then but had heard they were just recently taken off the railroad.
It would have been nice for them to last 4 or 5 years and be retired in the early 80's, but they were graffitti scarred, dirty and just plain beat. The then new R-46's sent them to the scrapper.............except #1689. Hard to believe that a quarter century has passed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah...wow...forgot about the graffitti, it's been so long (although some of the windows had their plexiglass pretty well scraped up at an attempt to so the same). To think that when the last R-9 left the system, I was single...it has been a long time....
Hello bingbong. Are you going to forgive me for my transgressions on Subtalk? If I knew you were Selkirk's better half I can assure you I would have been on my best behavior.
Don't know if 1689 was in that J consist on 3/31/77. It was a put-in train from 168th St. that ran to Broad St., dumped its load, and ran light to Coney Island.
Oh yeah, well just go to Branford and compare 2775 with 1689 and see which one is still running and which one is rotting out!!! Actually I'm just busting chops as I loved the Standards too, especially the long seats and the pull down rail fan window, and would love to see 2775 renovated. I'd volunteer to operate the first round trip to Short Beach!
I hadn't realized that 2775 was heavily damaged by flooding. I guess those motors ain't gonna turn anymore. :(
But I'd sure love to see her come back to life somehow just because of her age. My first love is still 1689 though, she's the only IND car there ... BMT didn't run to the Bronx and I've already seen enough IRT cars, thus my love for that IND sweetie. Heh.
2775 has taken a turn for the worse since the last time I saw it in 1995. Back then it had just been painted and looked good from the outside. Last month I was shocked to see one body panel literally hanging by a thread, about to fall off.
Supposedly they have the necessary parts to bring 2775 back to life and restore it to as-delivered single car status. It's a matter of time and $$$.
For the record, the BMT standards served subway patrons from 1915 until 1969. However, very few of them actually lasted 50 years on an individual basis. The museum set 2390-91-92 did so.
I took this Wednesday night. Tell me what everybody thinks.
I checked it out on the PREVIEW featue and it works. So no complaints
:)
Interesting effects!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NICE BRIGHT choochoo! GREAT shot! :)
Cool pic!!
Hey thanks for the comments. I took so many up there tonight. So I will see if I post one in the AM.
I love this picture! What a shot! Great job, Tony!
Chuck Greene
Where was it taken?
I was thinking the same question. The only stations on the Canarsie Line that have island platforms AND is elevated is Bway Junction and Atlantic. And since there is no other platform next to it it can't be either one. And 105th and Rockaway Pkway are on the ground yet the pic is undoubtably on an el. So PLEASE, WHERE IS IT???
Atlantic Avenue.
One for the history books. I wonder how much time the Snediker Av portion has before it comes down? Doug, do we have a timetable?
-Stef
Back end of the train. I never would have thought that it was Atlentic Avenue. Being A T/O on the L, I should kick myself in the ass for not knowing this. But I do only see the frount veiw anyway, the red lights should have given it away.
Robert
What I like about the pic (and the station) is that it doesn't have those corrugated metal sheets installed that block the view of the street (and keep the rowdies from throwing stuff "downstairs"). Any pre-1970s photo shows the elevated stations without these view-blockers.
What I like about the pic (and the station) is that it doesn't have those corrugated metal sheets installed that block the view of the street (and keep the rowdies from throwing stuff "downstairs"). Any pre-1970s photo shows the elevated stations without these view-blockers.
I agree with you about that. I like being able to see the neighborhood. Although that station is set up as an island platform anyway (trackways on both sides, even if one doesn't have tracks in this case). In general island platforms don't have those metal sheets anyway - only side platform stations have them.
I think it was an L drop-out that terminated at Atlantic. And it wasn't ready for ENY yard yet.
Maybe it is the Manhattan Bound platform and that was the back of the train.
Thats right!! I let a few go by and I was taking photos I will post an "Artsy" one sometime tonight.
Atlantic Avenue is an island platform station (even if one of the tracks are abandoned). Well actually three island platforms. I believe you can see the other two platforms in the distance. That would also explain why the lights are out on this platform. The Manhattan bound platform is to be abandoned and the lights currently on the platform consists of worker lights strung along the canopy. About three weeks ago I used the East New York LIRR connection at that station at night, and all the lights were out on that platform when I waited there for a train. The center platform's canopy was almost completely gone. It won't be long and this photo will not be able to be repeated.
Great shot!
Is it film or is it digital? Also, why are the platform lights off when it's that dark?
-Robert King
I was wondering that myself. It did make for a better photo though!
Its a digital photo. My Sony camera :)
Now that's cheating!
-Robert King
Maybe the pic was taken at the time of day where it's dark out. But the automatic lights didn't come on yet.
Very nice indeed!
How did you take that? Digital? Film? What was your exposire time?
What a perfect sky!
That's a beautiful shot.
did you use a tripod ?
No I did't, I actually used one of the lamp posts as support because they are shaped in a way in which you can rest a camera on a bolt. So I just let it sit there. I NEVER use a tripod when taking photos.
No I did't, I actually used one of the lamp posts as support because they are shaped in a way in which you can rest a camera on a bolt. I NEVER use a tripod when taking photos.
And is NOT allowed in the subway. Your photo is perfectly legal, using the lampost.....
And I have talked with professional photographers who suggest using things such as lamps, trash cans, columns, pylons, and the like to substitute for tripods.
And at one time or another I've done all those things and more... although I'm far from being a professional!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
you can use a one leg monopod .
but tripods dont work when the platforms move and shake ...
Very nice!
Very nice !
A lovely Vulture- that was at Atlantic, they had the lights OFF after dark there? Scary thought...
wayne
splendiferous!!!
As for the stations lights, IMO if there on a timer,
the TA hasn't fallen back to Standard Time as yet.
;-) Sparky
As for the stations lights, IMO if there on a timer,
the TA hasn't fallen back to Standard Time as yet.
I don't think so. I was there about 9 or 10:00PM about 3 weeks ago, and they were all out then also. All they had was a string of those yellow construction bulb lights they usually have in construction areas. I think they have them all disconnected on that platform.
Not bad at all. We rode on the R-143s last month and I was impressed. Very smooth and quiet, quick acceleration. IIRC the door chimes sound twice, once before the doors close and again as they close. OTOH on the R-142s, the chimes sound only once.
that was at Atlantic, they had the lights OFF after dark there? Scary thought...
I'm used to that station, as I use it quite often for the East New York LIRR connection, it looks a lot creepier than it really is. Although it is very dark on the Manhattan-bound platform (even when the lights were on because it was just some dim bulbs). Although I do love the "police escort" usually there. AT night, there is almost always a police car in a corner between the LIRR station exit and the L Atlantic station entrance. Although a couple of weeks ago there was an abandoned "dumpster carrier" truck just abandonned in the middle of the street right there that you had to walk around it to get to the Atlantic Station stairway.
That platform would be scary at night without any of the old fixtures still working. You'd think they'd string up some temporary lighting while the platform is still in use.
Superb shot. What I wonder is when does the L line discharge its R143 trainset into revenue service? How many R143 sets total are there on the L?
Last time I rode the L, it was a weekend. I did not notice any R143's, and at the storage area outside of ENY, I saw about 4 or 5 R143's sitting there.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Last time I rode the L, it was a weekend. I did not notice any R143's, and at the storage area outside of ENY, I saw about 4 or 5 R143's sitting there.
As far as I know, the R143's do run on the weekend, at least sometimes. I have ridden R143's on the L on Saturday, within the last three weeks, and they were on the opposite side also, so there were a few sets in service on Saturday. Of course the M also gets the R143 on the weekend (Athough the stripmaps were for the L, but the announcements were proper for the M). I wonder too how many sets they do have right now.
Why aren't the station lights on?
They are abandoning that platform, and the lights have been off there for a wihile. I think they are disconnected, but since they are going to remove that station anyway, they will probably not be reconnected.
They are abandoning that platform, and the lights have been off there for a wihile. I think they are disconnected, but since they are going to remove that station anyway, they will probably not be reconnected.
Can I have some more information about this? When and why are they going to remove the station?
Atlantic currently has two seperate el structures, three platforms and 6 trackways (some with tracks, some without). The importance of Atlantic basically was dropped after the Fulton El was removed. Currently, the only tracks used is the one that the far east side, which the Canarsie line uses, and the 2nd to end one for Manhattan L trains (the one in the photo). All the others, and the center platform are abandoned, and don't even have tracks.
To basically remove all unnecessary infastructure there, the entire el structure over Snediker Ave (where the train in the photo is) will be removed. Currently they are working on realigning the Manhattan bound track to connect to the unused track on the current Canarsie bound platform. Eventually, that will be all that Atlantic Avenue will be - the current Canarsie platform with service in both directions. All the other platforms, trackways, and the entire structure that now holds the Manhattan platform will be removed.
Do you know when they are planning on removing the trackways and structures?
Great photo. Try to see if you can have it published. It might even look great in a book on the New York subways.
#3 West End Jeff
Awesome photo! Keep up the good work!
--Brian
Thanks for helping me fix my BVE problem. So far you have been the only person who had enough knowledge too help me, and the only one who took time out of their schedule too help me. Therefor I thank you.
You're most welcome ... so pray tell, what WAS the problem so others can learn from your turdhunt as well? :)
I dont know if the problems gone for sure, but I presume the Directdraw acceleration must of inerfeired with the BVE program. I just disabled it and pray it worked.
That's a rare one. Well, now you know what you want for Kissmoose, a nice accelerated 3D card. :)
Actually I'm in the process of purchasing a labtop computer. I just hope BVE or MSTS runs on Windows XP.
Where can you get BVE?
http://mackoy.cool.ne.jp/-Gets you BVE
http://www.crotrainz.com/-Gets you the trains
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/-Just in case
Thanks!
Yes indeed ... Mackoy had to do the latest version BECAUSE of XPee ... and then had to redo it AGAIN when Macrosuck screwed UP XPee with that service pack that broke nearly everything.
Well it had to happen some time. It will happen at exactly 9:59 AM on Thursday November 7, 2002. At that time the LIRR will break the color barrier. at 9:59 AM, Low Home Signal 2RC that governs westward movement of the west layup track (Hall Interlocking) will be removed from service and will be replaced with a Color Light Home Signal. The new signal will have 3 colors, Green over Yellow over Red. It will have 4 different aspects & indications. They are:
Red = Stop Signal
Solid Yellow = Restricting
Flashing Yellow = Slow Approach
Green = Slow Clear
This is the first step in the LIRRs goal to replace the LIRRS Pennsy Signal System with color signals.
They DO use color aspect signals in the tunnels (Atlantic Avenue and East River), don't they. Still that's surprising news. Are they using glass lenses or LEDs?
wayne
Jersey Mike will be wearing black
no, Brunswick Green with road grime,
Seriously, though, while I sympathize, (although Color Posistion Lights are even cooler--think Best & Only) even the slow minds in Philly of yore might have figured out colored LEDS by the end of the decade. Have you seen how much brighter th LED traffic signals are? and longer lasting at much lower wattage.
Amtrak uses LED's in its PRR colourized position lights.
I was thinking in Jackie Robinson terms when I saw the subject line. Hey, the LIRR is so behind the times it almost could be true!
ACTUALLY ... Branford has an interesting signal departing the rapid transit car platform - it's a combination color and position signal and it's pretty damned neat. LIRR might want to take a look at what Jeff and friends have done up there - satisfies both worlds on one signal head. I really enjoyed it.
What would you consider a semaphore with a color lens? NYC had plenty of them on the els.
I *loved* the old IRT doubleheader at the end of the W platform at Stillwell under the signal tower. What Branford has is even neater though - it's pretty much your standard three lens signal head, but it's got an OVERLAY on top of the lenses - red is "-", yellow is "/" and green is "|" ... it's VERY nice ... never saw anything like it before, but it was genuinely used somewhere or it wouldn't have been there. REAL NEAT.
Hate to break it to ya, but the signal in question (#19E)
was home-made. It is patterned after switch position indicator
signals, which were prototype on some railways (none around here
that I know of), but it was made by stitching together these
obscure RACO UniLens signal heads that we have so many of and
making up a custom mask for the bar symbols (similar to the way
the illuminated "S" is done on NYCT signals).
Ah well, I *still* think it was pretty damned neat, and one hell of a nice touch. Mon compliment au chef! I'd give my left nut to see an IRT semaphore on the run sometime. You guys have some really neat toys there, would love to take some home. :)
How 'bout we get together in the spring, I'll bring an old fashioned water bottle, let's see if we can rig it up to the air line and make 1227 MOO? Heh.
Well, get your left-handed nutcracker ready...I am working
on putting up a working semaphore display signal.
KEWLNESS! So how about that rubber bladder for 1227? A straight flute will make it moo, or we could put in a warbler for a duck call. Waddya say? :)
You DO have to stop the WD and the bingbong for next year ya know. You've unfortunately started a tradition and Unca Selkirk is always game for a good gag.
Dammit ... meant "TOP the WD and the bingbong" ... damned sticky fingers. :)
Circa 1940 rulebook has all of the old IRT signals. I think I still have the zipfile if anyone is interested.
Oooo! Oooo! PLEASE!?!?! I *love* those old rulebooks!
Steve,
If you could send that my way too I would appreciate it.
Thanks
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
This is not the news I needed right now. NS is removing the PRR Position Lights at EAST CONWAY (a manned interlocking tower) and several nearby automatic signals somethime within this year. Those are original 4-track PRR signal bridges. I hope the LIRR has some serious accidents due to the decreased signal visbility.
That is indeed a long tradtion that may be uprooted if the LIRR decides that this is the way to go. And the heavy M7 vs lighter M1-M3 ...hmmm... If signal visibility is a potential issue (and I don't doubt your opinions in this matter), perhaps they should opt for the brightest and largest color signals possible, with large aspects and leds, much like some of the traffic lights we see nowadays.
Metro North uses colored signals, don't they?
wayne
MNRR dosen't really use signals at all.
Position Light signals are particiularly valuable at interlockings where they help to clearly define the interlocking boundaries. This is why CSX kept B&O CPL on at interlockings at the Toledo Branch.
given how many other CSX interlockings have been redone with "C&O" lights, I am skeptical as to this reasoning. Recent examples include Miller west of Martinsburg, and Sand Patch. I expect I may outlive CPL's on the ex B&O lines (I am 58)
They are "Seaboard" lights. C&O lights (large target) are just as endangered.
The Toldeo Sub and the Cumberland Sub are under two different operating divisions and different direct management.
one of my treasures is a Chicago area ALL RR signals guide. It sure is comical how many different ways to say the same thing. or perhaps almost the same thing.
As to visibility, the new LEDs are better than the amber lamps I suspect, BUT the real answer for ALL densely operated passenger service is CAB SIGNALS. They are just safer no matter which scheme is employed.
Most Chicago area commuter lines have either cab signals of some sort or positive train stop systems with wayside signals.
>>>I hope the LIRR has some serious accidents due to the decreased signal visbility. <<<
That's really twisted.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's really twisted.
So's JM.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I assume this is one of the MTA's first approaches to 'standardizing' the signalling systems on all NY area railroads that come under their jurisdication? Sounds like that's what's in place with the LIRR.
Compared to MNRR, that would be a "non-standard" signal.
What do they use now, some kind of single colour position based display?
-Robert King
It is replacing a PRR position dwarf which uses 4 smaller white lamps instead of 3 larger traffic light lamps. The PRR dwarf can show 4 indications w/o needing to flash.
| = slow clear
-- = Stop
\ = Restricting
/ = Slow approach
Thank you. It sounds like these were very well designed - colourblindness wouldn't be an issue with them at all.
-Robert King
I'm with you on this one...the PRR 4 light dwarf was just fine.
No reason to spend money to replace these things
Wha's the point? Both work equally well, and there's no signifcant reason to dump the existing system.
Unless the LIRR wanted to get more up to date and replace the current ASC with a newer system and ditch wayside signals altogether.
Of course, the real answer here is 'follow the money'.....
LIRR was fooling with CBTC last year. May be that the two are related. The other consideration is that LIRR personnel need to know the PRR signals and color signals. Perhaps they realize that to standardize might lead to fewer errors.
>> Perhaps they realize that to
standardize might lead to fewer errors. <<
YES!!!
They will need to know them anyway because to run into Penn Station they need to be qualified on NORAC Zone A signal rules. Position Lights are much more intuitive than colour light signals any way and there is a one to one correspondance between each position and each colour so there really isn't that much more information that engineers have to memorize.
On some parts of the MBTA Commuter Rail System (Boston north side -- i.e. not NE Corridor), they have been installing signals that only come on when a train enters (or is in) the block. Typically, that means that signals are dark until a minute or two before the train passes the signal (blocks are always long enough so that the signal aspect is always visible when it enters the engineer's vision). When the entire train is past the signal, if there is no following train entering the block, the signal will again go dark.
By the way, this has an interesting benefit. At my station (Anderson/Woburn on the Lowell line), during bad weather I can wait in my car until I see the signal at the departing end of the station illuminate. That's just enought time to dash out of the car, up and down the stairs to the island platform, and catch the train into Boston.
I assume this is to save bulb life. Is there a name for this system? Is it in use on other passenger lines (I've seen it out west on freight lines)?
Energy efficiency as well I'm sure ... THAT'S NEAT! And yes, it would serve such a useful purpose for the "commuters" as well. I *like* it!
SIR does that, the signal comes on when the train enters the block before that signal. After the train passes, it goest to RED and then a few seconds later shuts off.
Had no idea ... then again, last time I rode on SIRT, B&O owned it. :)
I have heard it called "approach lighting"
It has been common on many RR's B&O (thus SIR,neeSIRT) CRI&P, and many others. Bulb life, electrical draw, a fine system, and useful as a fan knowing when something is 'on the block'.
Although you can't watch the signals do their little dance. Depending on how its set up, on rule 261 lines both directions of a bi-directional signal will light up when a train is in either in front of or in rear of the signal giving you advance warning for both following and opposing movements. This is particiularily helpful on the NJT Atlantic City Line.
Approach lighting has beein in use since the 1950's. It is mostly for bulb life. In some cold places like Canada approach lighting is sometimes not used to keep the signal from getting damaged by cold or being covered by ice and snow.
It also helps by having a shorter period the signal can be used for target practice.
The LIRR is beginning to replace it's position light signals for 1 primary reason, as I understand it. The company which produced the PRR style signals went out of business.
Um no. Both US&S and Stfetran make PRR PL signals and both are still very much in bussiness and both still offer position lights in their catalogues. The US&S and Safetran high signal differ greatly in their lamp and mounting assemblies, while their dwarfs are pretty much of identical design, the Safetran one being of cheaper manufacture.
You can check out US&S by going to www.switch.com
10/24/02, laid up at East 180 Street after PM rush (as complete as I can get):
(N) 8708/8709-8785/8784-8787/8786-8716/8717-8718/8719 (S).
Spare Set: 8740/8741.
As of 11/5/02, 8708/8709, 8784/8785, 8786/8787 and 8740/8741 were laid up on Track 35, while 8716/8717 and 8718/8719 were hauling Rail Adhesion Car 8885 around.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Finally they give the Widow some company! Are all these scheduled for Work Motors?
wayne
The widow gets company every so often....
-Stef
Stef & List:
Persistent persistence finally yielded these car numbers as most recently delivered 25 through 11/5/02. Some you've already advertised:
7066-7070
7071-7075
7076-7080
7081-7085
7086-7090
Surprisingly--still no 6800 or 6900 in-fills!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks George for the updates.
As I've mentioned in another post, 7031-40 and 7056-65 have gone into service on the 5. 7066-75 are road testing. Not sure as of yet if R-142As 7721-30 have gone into service on the 4.
Can you confirm or deny for me, there was a delivery on Tuesday night? 7091-95?
-Stef
Stef & List:
The newest delivered were 7086-7090, so that was probably what arrived on November 5.
7721-7730 went into service last week (October 29). That's the wrap!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I'm eagerly awaiting publication of the new Brian Cudahy book How We Got To Coney Island. It's a history of the various subway lines and previously, railroads that traversed Brooklyn. It's a part of NYC subway history nobody reads too much about, how surface steam RR lines became, eventually, subway lines...I got it amazon pre-ordered already...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
You must have been away because Mark Feinman posted that on Tuseday 11/5
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=405055
Well, probably not as detailed as Mr. Cudahy's book, here's a little something to tide you over while waiing for the book to arrive :)
--Mark
Maybe Cudahy cribbed from you!
www.forgotten-ny.com
One never knows! I'll check his credits for sure :)
--Mark
This time we use a little clout.
In late April 1983, I took a trip to the Louisville, Kentucky area. The Louisville, New Albany and Corydon Railroad was having some sort of an open house. Being that I knew virtually nothing about this line other than they had quite a few blue box cars that appeared in the yards where I worked, I decided to take a few days off and attend so as to see the place for myself. The event turned out to be less than what I had anticipated, so I left the proceedings early. Having never really spent any time there before, I decided to use this suddenly gained free time to check out the Louisville area.
I did some of the so-called tourist stuff including a visit to the Hillerich and Bradsby Company, home of the "Louisville Slugger" baseball bat. They are manufactured here. After finishing the tour I decided to check out the railroads of the region. After all, railroading is what I came down here for in the first place.
I managed to find my way over to Osborn Yard, the major hump and classification yard of Seaboard System Railroad in Louisville. Osborn was formerly a Louisville & Nashville facility. It was opened for business in 1977 consolidating several smaller yards the L&N operated in the Louisville area. The name is in honor of former L&N President Prime F. Osborn. Seaboard System was the new name of the recently merged components of the Family Lines Rail System; Seaboard Coast Line, Louisville & Nashville, the Clinchfield, the Georgia, and the West Point Route, which itself was comprised of the Atlanta & West Point and Western of Alabama Railroads. These individual companies having been under the same corporate ownership for quite some time were merged into one company on January 1, 1983.
After driving all over God’s half acre looking it, I finally found my way in to the yard. I came upon an office observing a couple of people at work. So in I went. I asked about speaking to a Trainmaster in regards to getting permission to take a look around the facilities. While making my pitch, I mentioned to the lady with whom I was speaking that I too was a railroader, employed by Missouri Pacific as a Locomotive Engineer in Chicago. I figured that mentioning my railroad experience might be the "in" that I needed. The lady I spoke with very graciously made a telephone call to somebody and told them of my request. After concluding her phone conversation, she smiled and informed me that the person at the other end of the phone would be with me shortly. While I was waiting, we struck up a conversation.
This very friendly lady informed me that both she and a man also working in this office were the Crew Callers. One of them handled all the Engineers and the other handled all the Trainmen. It was a decent sized office and they were both rather busy. All during the conversation, both of these folks were very friendly and hospitable despite handling all of the business and busyness of a Caller’s office. They took a few moments to explain the workings of their system. I wonder if this same hospitality would prevail in today’s world. Both had also mentioned they had started their careers with the L&N. I guess the L&N aside from teaching people the requirements of their jobs, also emphasized courtesy.
A company looking vehicle appeared and in walked a man who introduced himself as Joe Carlson, Trainmaster. I introduced myself and told him of my credentials. I also mentioned to him that I worked at Yard Center where numerous Seaboard (formerly L&N) trains, including the 290 train that originated here at Osborn Yard terminated. I mentioned that we also originated the 291 train that terminated at Osborn along with several Seaboard trains that operated via the Evansville Division. This seemed to create a common bond between us. We were railroaders of different employers who shared a common link.
Mr. Carlson had me hop into the car with him but not before I grabbed my photography gear. He then proceeded to begin the tour of Osborn Yard. Our first stop was at the end of a track at the bottom end of the hump. A hump crew was shoving a track to its limit and Mr. Carlson was there to protect this move. It was here that I had my first major exposure to the different terminology used for the same things. When giving a count down, the term "tote" was used. I had never heard this term before and inquired as to its meaning. It was explained to me about L&N’s intermodal or piggyback trains being called "Tote trains." Tote being the acronym for Trailer On Train Express. It was further explained that a "tote" was the jargon used to describe a long car. The flatcars used for hauling trailers were generally 89 to 93 feet long as opposed to the average fifty-foot car length normally used.
In counting down the distance to the stop Mr. Carlson used the term "five totes, two totes, one tote", meaning five long ones, two long ones, one long one. It was very much exactly the same as what we said at Yard Center, only different.
We then proceeded to the hump tower. I noticed the tower stood taller than the one I was familiar with at Yard Center appearing to be a couple of stories higher. It made for quite the impressive sight as the tower itself was strategically placed at the crest of the hump, clearly the highest point within Osborn Yard. From the top floor of the hump tower, the glass enclosed office provided a great vantage point for observing operations of this sprawling facility. I could see the entire bowl of the hump as well as a large portion of the yard and the locomotive servicing tracks.
In between explaining the operations of the hump and some information about the Seaboard’s computer system, Mr. Carlson also went about the business of running a major rail yard. He was involved with getting a "Short Line Extra" prepared. This was an extra through freight train that would operate between Osborn and Cincinnati on the former L&N’s renowned "Short Line." The Short Line is well known by many for its so-called saw tooth profile that makes operating trains a challenge.
I took various photographs of the yard in a panoramic style to capture the layout of the hump and surrounding yard and facilities. I didn’t want to disturb the operations anymore than I already was, so I didn’t take any pictures inside the tower itself, as this would have required using my strobe light.
Soon we were back into the car again heading out to take some paperwork to a crew ready to depart with a transfer job. This assignment featured an L&N Geep and a U25B for power, both wearing the Family Lines System paint scheme. The little "L&N" initials on the cabs of both units next to the road numbers had been blanked out being that the L&N no longer existed as a railroad. Neither unit had the "SBD" initials of the new name stenciled on their cabs as of yet.
After taking care of this business, we drove around the yard. I was shown the RIP Track and the locomotive servicing facilities. The locomotive facilities were near the hump tower. While Louisville was home to L&N’s famed South Louisville Shops, they were at the other end of this entire complex. The servicing facilities were what are commonly referred to as "running" facilities. This would be where locomotives are worked in service as it were. Locomotives are fueled, sanded, lubed, watered and daily inspected. Major repairs are not conducted at running facilities. Only smaller repairs, such as replacing lights or brake shoes, adjusting brake rigging and the like are handled at facilities like these.
As we slowly drove passed the servicing facilities, I noticed some Chessie System power on one of the tracks. Mr. Carlson explained that since the parent companies of Seaboard and Chessie System had merged in 1981, a daily through freight train from Chessie System called upon Osborn Yard. A daily outbound Chessie train was built and originated at Osborn. I guess this would be a precursor to the merger of the two railroads into CSX Transportation.
When I asked of his background, Mr. Carlson told me he began his career with the L&N in 1969 at DeCoursey Yard, just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati in Latonia, KY. After the merger of Seaboard and Chessie’s parent companies, DeCoursey was closed in favor of Chessie’s relatively new Queensgate Yard where the Cincinnati Terminal operations for both railroads were consolidated. Queensgate was a larger and far more modern facility than DeCoursey opening for business around 1980.
With the tour now concluded, Mr. Carlson brought me back to the Caller’s office and my car. In addition to getting permission to drive around on my own and take some pictures, I was given a parting gift of an L&N, Louisville Division employee timetable. Seaboard System had not yet issued a timetable under their name, so the L&N timetable was still in effect. Being that I was a trained, qualified railroader, Mr. Carlson simply reminded me to heed all safety rules, to be careful, use good judgment and to remember this was an active and busy rail yard. I thanked Mr. Carlson for his time, wished him a good and safe day and we parted company.
I took the opportunity to drive around and get some photos. I snapped off quite a few pictures around the locomotive servicing facilities getting shots of various locomotives. One of the notable locomotives present was an SDP35 locomotive. When these units were ordered in the mid 1960’s, it was thought that these units would be used to pull passenger trains. Plans changed and these units spent their life first in freight service and now in yard, hump and transfer service in the latter days. The particular locomotive on hand, the 4546, was recently modified having the portion of the engine room that was designed to house a steam boiler shortened and its rear porch lengthened to more easily accommodate somebody walking across the back of the locomotive. The rear ladders were replaced with the more common stairs making it easier to ride as well as board and alight from the rear of the locomotive.
As I was concluding my own private tour, I noticed a switcher working some assignment. It was a rather uncommon MP15AC locomotive. Several railroads purchased them, but the only ones I had ever observed up close at this point in time were those of the Milwaukee Road. L&N and sister road Seaboard Coast Line also purchased them. While L&N sent numerous SW1500 and MP15DC locomotives to Yard Center to use in captive yard service, they never sent us the MP15AC model. I snapped a shot of it and then departed Osborn Yard, heading back across the Ohio River to my hotel room in New Albany, IN.
When I returned home to Northwestern Indiana and then back to work, I made it a point to stop and visit Seaboard Assistant Superintendent Jack King. Mr. King, a former L&N man himself was assigned to Yard Center and oversaw Seaboard’s Chicago Terminal operations. I told him of my visit to Osborn Yard and the very courteous and friendly welcome I received there. I also thanked him for the very cordial welcome the people of the former L&N railroad gave me. He seemed gratified that I was treated so well by the people of his company.
This little adventure occurred in an era before lawyers advertised on television saying things like "even though you may be at fault, you may be entitled to compensation." This term personally makes my flesh crawl. Since litigation has become the norm and people file lawsuits because they can, not because they are innocent victims, the railroads have been party to many the frivolous suit by trespassers. With our litigious society of today, it is highly unlikely I could attempt to make a tour like this happen again. I would most certainly be told in the coldest and most unfriendly manner that I must remove myself from the premises immediately or face certain arrest and prosecution.
I guess that sunny Friday in April of 1983 was one of my personal "good old days."
And so it goes.
Tuch
A 10 Car Transfer was on the move tonight soutbound, destination unknown.
On the train was 8982-83, 9052-53, 9192-93, 9210-11, and R-29s 8694-95. 8694-95 haven't been active for more than a month. It's a curtain call! Next stop....The reef.
-Stef
P.S. I hope my friends at IRM are reading this, time may be running out for your ACF acquitions!!!
Well this evening I witnessed a first. The c/r of my n/b F
train never opened the front section at Roosevelt. Several times
I've seen this happen where the complete announcement cycle is made
and then the c/r notices that ooops, the front section isn't open.
In this case, he never opened and the train continued in service.
At Continental, the front section opened, and the c/r, surrounded
by a multi-lingual irate mob, was trying to make some excuse about
"the key didn't work".
I can understand missing the button the first time, but how do you
close down and not notice that there were no guard lights lit?
It wasn't me!
Obviously someone using the force without benefit of Yoda. :)
Makes one wonder if that sort of thing ever happened in the olden days.
If it did, it was probably rare.
Considering that the c/r had to stand between the cars he was right out in the open and could not avoid seeing if the doors opened (or hearing from irate riders when they didn't).
More so that two trigger switches had to be actually moved. If you had momentary pushbuttons on R10s, it would have happened again I'm sure.
>>>"c/r had to stand between the cars he was right out in the open and"<<<
exception to this, the BMT Standards & Multis, the c/r was either
in the car [ABs] or compartment [MS].
;-) Sparky
But them who ever cares about those???
Just kidding.
I rode on the BMT standards on the Canarsie line during their final two years of service and never saw the conductor at a button console. The only explanation would have to be that I never rode in the same car he was on.
The Triplexes also had interior door controls, but these could only be used if a unit was operating alone because they didn't trainline.
Makes one wonder if that sort of thing ever happened in the olden days.
It was never a problem on the gate cars.
Sure it did ... but the big problem back then was getting the doors to CLOSE. Once the latches came off, folks were pretty good about opening them if they were stuck closed. Then I'd have to get down and walk the train to rock 'em so we could go again. :)
Somebody should have pulled the cord as the train was leaving Roosevelt.
That's exactly what I would've done. I have done it in the past.
Peace,
ANDEE
If it was, then people would be complaining more about a disruption in service.
And held up the entire line just for that? What's the emergency?
The same once happened to me on a C train at 81st Street. The one passenger in my car who wanted to get off looked a bit surprised but not disturbed, and he got off at 72nd instead.
The C train at 81st and the F train at Roosevelt are two entirely different animals. It's a short walk from 72nd to 81st on CPW, as opposed to a much longer distance between Roosevelt and Continental. The F passengers who needed to exit at Roosevelt now had to switch over to the westbound side at Continental and take another train back to Roosevelt, or to one of the intermediate local stops. (They may also have had to wait a while for the westbound train.) In addition, with Roosevelt being a heavily used transfer point, it's likely that far more people were affected by the incident on the F at Roosevelt than by the incident on the C at 81st.
Imagining myself in those two situations, I think I would have been mildly irritated if I had wanted to get off that C train at 81st, and thoroughly irate if I had wanted to exit that F at Roosevelt.
Having said all that, I still would not have pulled the cord on either train. An inconvenience is not an emergency.
I've done it late night when they are running 20 min headways and the other direction train just passed us, I'll pull the cord.
I've seen it happen on < Q > trains at Atlantic Avenue with slant R-40s. Sometimes it's an individual car, sometimes it's an entire section. I believe the guard light(s) for the affected car(s) go(es) on, making it difficult to tell from the Conductor's position that the doors haven't actually opened.
And no, I don't know why the train seems to always pick Atlantic Avenue to do this.
David
Its always at Atlantic because that's the first stop from Brighton where the doors open on that side. Probably, it is also the first run of that train in the morning, so the contacts may have oxidized overnight.
It doesn't happen as much as it used to, but it had happened on my train fairly often in the past.
In this case I don't recall seeing the interior guard light on.
I'm pretty sure the c/r just wasn't paying attention. Also,
this was an R-46, and the total lack of a bing-bong from the
front section should have been a clue!
I have been on an R32 where the first two cars failed to open,
similar to what you are describing, the guard light came on.
This is due to either high-resistance connections across the
coupler electrical portion faces and/or (especially when it happens
at a certain station) a rail bonding/grounding problem which causes
a ground loop through the train, thus creating a relative difference
in B- voltage between the conductor's MDC panel and the door
relays on the car in question. Next time you're at that station
and have some time to kill, take a look at the bonding on the
power rail side (from the platform, of course)...bet you'll find
a broken or burned-off return bond.
What time of night was it? (I assume it was night!)
One day this sleepy C/R will promote to T/O, and run through the flashing yellows!
Once upon a time at 59 St/4 Ave there was an R train where the C/R got indication that the doors opened in 1 car. It was just 1 door out of 8. I was in that 1 car.
I've been on an MNR New Haven run when an overconscientious conductor locked down end cars that wouldn't platform prior to Stamford and then didn't unlock them for Stamford (the end of the run). Several of us were on an empty train to, as far as we knew, Casablanca or the crushing machine. A very special feeling.
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/4464092.htm
So the crows have come home. San Jose's elites got voter approval for the BART "fantasy" project while sabotaging other proposals for traffic relief possible at lower cost and sooner. Now that the dor bomb boom has burst, the sales tax proceeds have fallen and the BART extension cannot be paid for even if the capital costs are "free" from the Feds. Meanwhile actual service is being cut, shafting the riders.
http://www.rantpipe.com/LIRR/M7/ is the picture site of Commuter Michael Justice who took very nice lot of pictures of in service M-7's
So many pictures, but nothing of a view out the front! Ahhhhhhhh! Why hasn't anyone ever taken a pic of the Railfan View (or lack thereof) out of fromt of an M7 or C3?
DAMN!!! Those M-7's are so beautiful! The love everything about it, I even like the railphone.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Is railphone still popular, especially with all the cell phones out there? -Nick
I don't think it was particularly popular to begin with...
But cell phones won't work in the tunnels...or will they? Do they work while standing on the platforms at NYP or GCT?
How is the Railfone's reception on the M-7 anyway? Can they be used in tunnels?
Last time I checked, Railfone doesn't work in the Hudson Tubes entering NYP or in the tunnels around Baltimore on the Amfleet cars. I don't use it but I've seen it and the red light indicating no service is on.
That's some bullshit. Thanks for the Info!
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Not really. I don't know of any wireless phone (Railfone is wireless) that works underground at that depth. Do you>
You may be able to use cell phones on the Boston Subway, if the MBTA goes ahead with their plans to install cell phone receivers in the tunnels. -Nick
amazing. Railfone doesnt work there, but your cel phones do!!!
What cell phone are you using? I've never seen a cell phone work in those parts of the NEC. Also, reception in Penn Station itself is next to nothing.
Thanks for the link to the photos.
--Brian
I am looking for accurate information and historic images regarding what is left of the old power sub station located near the Gowanus Canal at Carrol Street and 3rd Avenue in Brooklyn. The power sub station backs what used to be the 1st Street Basin. I have a historic photo that shows the building in the distance. It seems that a portion of it was torn down at some point. I know it was built before 1909 but when? For what subway line? Any information or clues where I could find additional information and/or photos would be greatly appreciated!!
I don't know where the stack trains will unload, but the Hudson line is going to be cleared to accept them. I would look for many of the old rusting NYC walkways to be demolished.
I don't know where the stack trains will unload, but the Hudson line is going to be cleared to accept them. I would look for many of the old rusting NYC walkways to be demolished.
Cleared to where? The Oak Point Yard in the Bronx would be a natural location for the intermodal terminal, but I can't imagine how sufficient clearance under the Broadway Bridge could be accomplished except at enormous cost.
In any event, the need to route freights via Selkirk would seem to make east-of-Hudson double stack operations a doubtful proposition no matter what clearances may exist on the Hudson line.
If I recall correctly, the Broadway Bridge is quite high over the MNRR tracks. It is higher than the pedestrian overpasses at Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale. Both of those stations are slated fopr major renovations soon, which will presumably take into account the necessary clearances.
The easiest way to provide clearence for overheight vehicles is to lower the vehicle. In this case, they would likely take a track out of service for a week, and dig out from under it. No need to to anything at all the the bridges over the tracks.
-Hank
(Cleared to where? The Oak Point Yard in the Bronx would be a natural location for the intermodal terminal, but I can't imagine how sufficient clearance under the Broadway Bridge could be accomplished except at enormous cost. In any event, the need to route freights via Selkirk would seem to make east-of-Hudson double stack operations a doubtful proposition no matter what clearances may exist on the Hudson line.)
There have been a series of incremental improvements, including a direct link from the Hudson Line to Oak Point, over the years. This would be another one. Personally, I don't see how the harbor tunnel could ever cover more than a fraction of its costs, but perhaps they could do a tunnel from North Bergen under Harlem to Oak Point some day. That would eliminate the need to turn around at Selkirk.
MNRR to Upgrade Hudson LIne for Double Stacks
Double Stacks ??? H'mmm. Reminds me of a girl I used to know.
After all the hard words about this last election I felt we needed a laugh.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ya think IHOP will get a cut in the revenue
if they serve Double Stacks in the T/O car?
...was this not just covered last week?
They would load/unload at harlem river and on LI, at a proposed site on the old pilgram state hospital.
As many of you know, many new pieces of new commuter equipment (Comet V, M-7, etc) now come with huge ADA bathrooms. This and other things has cut car capasity from like 130 down to 113 or so. Anyway, what is your view on bathrooms in commuter rail cars?
I think that most of the time you can do without them. SEPTA has no bathrooms on its trains and this is fine because most of their runs are less than one hour and if you can't hold it for an hour then you should probably just stay at home. Commuter cars are generally very crowded and as they are more of a "public" convetance they bathrooms tend to be trashed more frequently.
Therefore, I would only put bathrooms on cars that would be used on longer distance routes (like the LIRR C3's or MNRR diesel coach), but leave the MU fleet lartgely without bathrooms. A 3-car configuration (like the CDOT M-2's) would be ideal as you could have 1 bathroom per 3 MU cars for emergencies, but even one bathroom per two MU cars would be a better solution. Commuter rail ain't Amtrak, it needs to move as many people as can possibly jam themselves into the train. Bathrooms only remove needed seats and lead to SRO conditions. If you pay 30-50$ for Amtrak then you get 2 bathrooms per car. If you pay 10$ for a 40 min LIRR ride then you can pretty damn well hold it.
If you can't hold it for an hour then you should probably just stay at home.
What about transportation time to the station, waiting for the train (they might be late), transportation to your destination.
Questions
1 - I'm running late and have to go to the bathroom. Make the train (and go on the train), or go to a bathroom and miss the train. In rush hours maybe, but off hours with an hour or more between trains???
2 - Someone just has to go!! No bathroom? Use the floor !!
The bathroom of last resort is the gap between cars.
This should not be an alternative. The bathrooms on the trains ARE needed. If they weren't there you would be smelling piss all over the place. If ADA requires that they be made bigger, so be it.
Typical narrow minded Jerky Mike statements.
Peace,
ANDEE
Exactly. It was a ridiculous statement.
And I'd like to see a woman hve to do that. The bathrooms are not luxury, they are necessity.
And I'd like to see a woman have to do that ["go" between cars].
It's been posted here before, but in case you haven't seen it, here it is.
If you are caught doing it, Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not collect $200.
And would you like to see someone pissing or crapping in public? YUK !!
Would you like to step in it? DOUBLE YUK !!
I would want there to be one or two on a train, especially if there is more than 20 minutes between stops, which is pretty typical for rail lines heading out into the suburbs. Emergencies do happen. There is no need for one or two per car, however, except on longer runs like Amtrak routes.
MBTA Commuter Rail (Boston) trains have one per train -- the "MBB" cars (#500-series which are trailers, and usually adjacent to the engine, or #1500 control cars, which are on the inbound head end). One is just enough for emergencies (people have #2 emergencies too, you know). MBTA trains' runs can be up to two hours, but trains with shorter times get stuck between stations sometimes. If you gotta go, you gotta go. Fortunately, the MBTA does a reasonable job of keeping the facilities working and reasonably clean.
On a similar note, the MBTA is ordering an additional 28 bilevel cars (all blind trailer coaches) in anticipation of the opening of the new Greenbush line in a few years. I noted with interest that the RFP specifies an ADA bathroom in each coach, and wondered why when the MBTA policy is just one restroom-equiped car per train.
Here's why: Currently, the restroom needs are served by the single-level 500/1500 series MBB cars, of which there are a total of 67 active (not all are in the lineup every day, due to maintenance, etc.). This means that even trains which are predominantly bilevels have at least one single level car for ADA access and a restroom. But when Greenbush arrives, the number-of-trainsets requirement will exceed the number of MBB cars available. So if the MBTA is to order only bilevels from now on, at least some must be restroom-equiped to ensure there is one available per train. I'm not sure what the "ADA seats to all seats" ratio must be for a train, but remember that bilevels (OK, Jeffrey, trilevels!) only have a few platform-level postitions as compared to a single level, and that each potential wheelchair position must have access to a restroom per ADA, trains that end up having all bilevels will need more than one restroom-equiped car to be compliant.
At least, that's my thinking. If anyone out there has better knowledege of ADA requirements, please chime in!
I don't think every car has to have wheelchair access-on;ly some of them. Therefore not every car has to have a bathroom.
Just look at the new cars that Metro-North just got
My point was that I believe there is a ratio of ADA seats to all seats. So if a train is all bi-levels, then the ADA seats will have to be spread out over more than one car, since the available space for ADA seats in bi-levels is very limited.
On MN single-level cars, wheelchair users can navigate the length of the car to get to the restroom. On bi-levels, they can't -- the restroom has to be on the same "level" and same side of the car.
A month or two ago, my 30-minute LIRR ride turned from Penn Station to New Hyde Park into a 90-minute LIRR ride thanks to signal problems that delayed a number of evening rush hour trains. I would hate to be stuck on a train stopped in the middle of a 4-track mainline between stations for an hour with no bathroom anywhere on board. Also, many EMU runs are normally scheduled for more than an hour (Brewster North, New Haven). It's better to have bathrooms than to force people to go between cars ... that's what they do all the time on the NYC subway, and I'd rather we try to avoid the practice than to encourage it!
hey, why provide seats at all? if you can't stand for an hour...
The point here is DECENT PUBLIC SERVICE. Gutting the bathrooms because the train is crowded is the wrong response--demand more cars!
Trains can only be so long and you can only run so many per hour. Are bathrooms worth billions in capital expendature?
You can always surf on top !!
["Trains can only be so long"]
Although you don't really see that too often any more, years ago on the LIRR there were some VERY long trains. I remember seeing in Jamaica trains with about 5-6 cars plus the engine snaking through the switches E/O the platform waiting in Jamaica.
Especially the Montauk runs. And they are still fairly long, even with the Bilevels, (although not as loing as they used to be).
"If you pay 10$ for a 40 min LIRR ride then you can pretty damn well hold it."
You'll be changing your tune when you're 50. Many railroad stations are locked up tight most of the time, so there may be no rest rooms at the suburban end. Now you're talking trip to station, waiting for a train that can be late, and being on a train. And lots of suburban rail rides are more like 80 minutes than 40.
I agree, though, that 1 per train is enough.
My impression is that on MNRR a portion of cars have rest rooms but by no means all.
ON MNRR - MU married pairs have 1 bathroom per set. MU triplets (89xx and 90xx) has one per triplet. On push-pulls there are some but since I don;t ride those, I can't comment on the ratio of cars with and without restrooms.
There are several heavily used LIRR electric runs over an hour. Consider also the "ADA" issue. Be grateful if you are not one of the people who may have a necessity for an accessible bathroom where you can't wait an hour plus for a bathroom. You can't get off at an intermediate station because (1) you might have a bathroom there either (fewer station houses are open any kind of reasonable hours) and (2) you then have to wait an hour or more for the next train in most cases.
I also think the NYCTA should provide ADA compliant bathrooms at key stations, separated by no more than 20 or 30 minutes travel time. I know it should be an expense and security would be a major problem, but it could be done if they had the impetus.
Since I just retired from the NYPD and my police pass expires at the end of the year, can you please tell me, Jersey Mike, an alternative place to hide when the conductor comes through the car punching tickets?
:) That was actually going to another of my reasons why to eliminate bathrooms.
That might be all the more to keep the bathrooms. Just hide in there.
I am sure the C/R might notice if someone stays in the bathroom for the whole ride.
Absolute necessity! My commute via LIRR is about 45 minutes but with a delay here and there, that could easily be extended to over an hour. Its a real comfort knowing that if I really had to go I could go on the train, and for the good money I pay yearly to travel via LIRR (over $1,600) having a bathroom is a luxury I deserve.
having a bathroom is a luxury I deserve.
Don't you mean necessity at times? And mine is over $2800 per year !!
And necessity, of course.
And I also have to take the subway from the LIRR because I work downtown, so there's another $756 per year I spend, bringing my grand total to $2356 per year. You do pay a lot.
$756 for my subway also !!
Therefore, I would only put bathrooms on cars that would be used on longer distance routes (like the LIRR C3's or MNRR diesel coach), but leave the MU fleet lartgely without bathrooms.
The Ronkonkoma Branch is long enough to have a bathroom needed. I would assume that Huntington riders appreciate it also. Heck, even the Babylon Branch requires it I feel, if you got to go by let's say Jamaica, I'm sure you wouldn't to hold it until Babylon, then get in your car and have to wait until you get home. That goes for even the shorter run lines.
If you pay 30-50$ for Amtrak then you get 2 bathrooms per car. If you pay 10$ for a 40 min LIRR ride then you can pretty damn well hold it.
Obviously you don't use the LIRR too often, otherwise I don't feel you would feel that way.
Okay, I read most of the arguments here and they appear to be in favor of restrooms on trains, BUT -
Many commuter buses do not have restrooms. None of the NYCTA MCI's have them and only a handful of NJ Transit cruisers have them.
And many of those express/commuter lines are quite time consuming, sometimes over an hour, sometimes approaching two hours and sometimes even more.
At least NJ Transit dedicates lavatory-equipped buses for their longer commuter/intercity lines, such as the 319. Sometimes they'll make a cameo appearance on a line that doesn't normally use those buses (such as the 195, where I once rode a 6900- MC9, and the 164, where I saw a 6800 running once).
I don't recall seeing LIRR crews locking bathrooms, but here is a story from the early 1960's. My wife was traveling coach on the Southern's "Southern" from New Orleans to NY. Nearing D.C., the Southern crew member would lock the restrooms, then hand the key to one of the Pennsy crew. Apparently, only one key per train! Anyhow, this time he neglected to pass the key on. All toilets were locked save one (in the entire train). Near Wilmington, some sort of problem ahead caused a 4-hour delay. Arriving in Penn Station, the passengers "on hold" went directly to ..... the important room.
I have noticed on Bob Scheurle's NJT schedules page (nj.com/njtransit) that NJT has numerous "super expresses" speeding across the tracks both morning and evening rush hour. NJT has also added two, non-peak super expresses in the 20th hour of the day s/b from New York, Newark, then New Brunswick. What is convenient is that super expresses (there is a set that does from Newark to Princeton Jct) reach Trenton to NYP and vice versa in a little over an hour. The down side is, I need to buy one-way tickets which don't save because I don't have a weekly or monthly pass. (except for those two non-peak expresses).
I have one question.
1) Does NYP make clear announcements about these "super-expresses"? I just want to clarify. Last time I was at Penn with the departure of a Super Express I don't think they made announcements clearly.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
"Does NYP make clear announcements about these "super-expresses"?"
They announce stops, so if you listen and hear that there are very few stops, you've got yourself a fast train.
Are you wondering if they actually use the term "express" or "super-express"?
Are you wondering if they actually use the term "express" or "super-express"?
No. I know they don't use "super express." This was a term that I just used to describe the NJT trains that skip more than 3 stops (I don't count North Elizabeth because I am so frequent on trains that skip there).
It is unfortunate also that NJT makes PM peak trains also that cannot accept RTX tickets. NJT used to not have "PM peak" although it would set aside a group of marked "L" trains (train may leave ahead of schedule) for PM peak.
Yeah it does suck, it's more work for me. All I do is cut freaking step-ups. And it's like nobody understands "RTX tickets ARE NOT GOOD BETWEEN 4PM and 7PM!".
Yeah, Moe (whoever you are), I feel your pain. I spend half of the trip between Newark and Roselle Park conducting "Step-Up 101" classes. After making at least 3 announcements PRIOR to departing, and another announcement AS we're departing, the moron passengers still either "play" dumb or are dumb, whichever you prefer.
Suppose that someone wants to board with an RTX ticket on a peak train. How much extra will the passenger need to pay to complete the one-way fare?
The difference between two One-Way tickets and what they paid for the RTX. For example two One way tickets from NYP to NWK is $6.60 and the RTX is $5.00. So if you board a peak train with an RTX, you pay $1.60.
Here is the real pain in the ass:
If the psgr buys an RTX ticket from a TVM during peak hours, we have to take both tickets, charge the step-up, cut them a return ticket and explain 10 times why I had to charge them more and give them a different ticket.
What if someone has only one segment of the RTX ticket on a peak train intentionally? (Meaning they need to catch a peak train to get home on time, etc.) This would probably happen if someone took an early morning train into the city and had one segment of RTX left.
You'll have to take that ticket and charge the difference of the OW fare between the two stops?
Charge the difference of 2 OW fares from the Fare of the RTX.
BTW, it seems that many trainmen working out of New York are not doing their jobs properly. Many passengers are getting on my peak hour Raritan Valley train at Newark with either RTX's or ORT's from New York, and they are punched OUT. They should have been stepped up on that train from New York before getting on my train. Another classic, today, somebody handed me an ORT that was cut on a peak train out of New York! The only explanation for all of this is that all of these passengers took their trip from New York BEFORE 4pm, and they hung out in Newark for 2 1/2 hours and then decided to get on my train. Yeah, right!
What are ORT's?
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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Amtrak – which only a few months ago was looking at bankruptcy and possibly missing a payroll –is now on its way to restored health.
For one thing, Moody’s Investors Service has confirmed the passenger railroad’s A3 ratings. Moody’s cites the FRA $100 million loan and the Congressional $205 appropriation.
“In Moody’s opinion, these two measures demonstrate continued federal support for Amtrak given the strategically vital role it plays as the national passenger railroad,” said the ratings firm.
Moody’s Investors Service is a global credit rating, research and risk analysis firm, with more than 800 analysts worldwide.
The service also noted, “While there is greater scrutiny and the expectation of greater accountability, it is clear that the Bush Administration would like to avoid Amtrak shutdown or service interruptions.”
Also cited were new senior management’s focus on streamlining and getting back to Amtrak’s core business, the importance of Acela services, and a steady growth in ridership.
The only warning sign at the present time, said Moody’s, is the risk that the House’s lower version of Amtrak appropriations might result in pressure to pull the company’s funding to a level that could in turn “place downward pressure on the rating,” which is related to “the reliability of services provided, given badly needed capital investment.”
Amtrak President David Gunn, meanwhile, is proceeding with the “streamlining” of the “core business” that Moody’s notes. The company now has 500 fewer employees than it did when he took office in May. Of those laid off, 200 were managers.
His decisions, he told The AP last week, are based on the assumption that the higher Senate appropriations figure of $1.2 billion will be upheld, as opposed to $762 million on the House side. The lower figure, he said, would have “enormous repercussions.” The Amtrak board has approved a $3.4 billion budget that assumes the $1.2 billion support.
Gunn says there will be $76 million in the till at year’s end, and in reference to his predecessor’s mortgaging New York’s Penn Station just to meet ongoing expenses, he added, “We’re not selling my desk, and we’re not assuming any bank loans.”
The budget includes $11 million to repair 21 Superliner cars at Beech Grove, and Amtrak is rehiring 48 furloughed workers at Bear to fix damaged NEC cars.
In his interview with D:F last summer (See August 5 issue), Gunn said he would lean on the states to get them to help pay for rail services they receive. Judging by his comments to the wire service, the CEO has yet to make the sale on that one. The states are facing economic squeezes of their own right now, and are not in the mood to take on new costs.
He also reiterated that the long-distance trains are not the problem or fiscal drain on the budget that come lawmakers assume.
On a recent train trip to the West coast, Gunn found morale among Amtrak workers “amazingly good for what they go through and what they’ve been put through.”
Moody’s report also stated the firm “believes that Amtrak’s fiscal 2003 budget is a realistic one that assumes flat ridership, and no significant growth in revenues other than a 5 percent increase in ticket sales due to growth in premium products, namely Acela. The budget also assumes no cash-flow borrowing and forecasts an ending balance of $76 million.”
Moody’s opined that “apart from the risk that a lower amount is appropriated than the $1.2 billion requested, the most significant risks facing Amtrak in the coming year that could place downward pressure on the rating relate to the reliability of the services provided, given badly needed investment capital investment. Other significant risks are much the same as those faced by the transportation industry as a whole: the price of fuel, the threat of terrorism, a possible war on Iraq, and the disruption that these events would cause.”
Moody’s Investor Service is online at http://moodys.com.
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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The beans are still being counted at Amtrak, but now in a different way, says the company’s newest press officer in Washington.
We queried Bill Schulz, the carrier’s chief of corporate communications on October 8. He said he would look into the matter, which he did; and Dan Stessel, the new guy in town at the railroad’s headquarters, who responded on Friday (November 1). Stessel is a manager of media relations. There is one other, Karina van Veen, and director Cliff Black, who, by the way, returned to his old job on November 1 after being farmed out to various sites in different capacities. The Philadelphia office is closed. Other media offices are still located in Chicago and Oakland.
D:F’s query to Amtrak came about partly because Dan Chazin of Teaneck, N.J., a treasurer by day and an observer of the passing railroad scene at other times, especially online, had some questions and observations about the carrier’s fiscal reporting practices.
Schulz pointed out, “‘Generally accepted accounting principles’ and ‘Route Profitability System’ (GAAP and RPS) have little or nothing to do with one another. GAAP is a series of rules developed by certified public accountants (CPAs). RPS is a complex formula allocating costs to individual trains developed by Amtrak. Formulas by their nature are changeable – imagine how many different ways there may be to allocate baggage handling costs; now pick the right one.”
Deno Bokas replaced Arlene Friner as Amtrak’s chief financial officer over the summer.
I made it clear to Schulz I am not an economist, nor an accountant; not even a bookkeeper.
We asked how accounting practices have changed in the last few months, especially after Mr. Gunn came aboard?
Stessel replied on Friday, “Regarding changes in accounting practices implemented by Mr. Gunn, one of his first priorities was to make clear, public disclosure of Amtrak’s financial results. He began the practice of providing Amtrak’s Monthly Performance Report to the USDOT and the Congressional Appropriations Committee members each month. This report contains the same detailed financial data that is sent to Amtrak’s Executive Committee as well as the Board of Directors.”
He added, “In regard to your question concerning changes in accounting practices, Amtrak’s financial statements have and continue to be prepared on the basis of generally accepted accounting practices and are audited on an annual basis by outside, independent auditors. Audited financial statements are complete through Fiscal Year 2001.”
He noted Gunn “has completely reorganized Amtrak to reflect a more traditional railroad structure – Operations, Mechanical, Engineering, Marketing, etc. Each area is held responsible for their results by requiring signed monthly reports evaluating their performance. This allows for a clear line of responsibility and accountability.”
D:F remarked, “No matter what Amtrak ever does, the GAO never seems to be satisfied. How large is their influence on Amtrak fiscal matters? What could make them happy, short of Amtrak going away?”
Stessel said, “The GAO provides a service of checks and balances. They are often asked to provide insight into Amtrak’s actions and this provides an opportunity to review the decision-making process and outcome.”
We were struck by the logic Chazin displayed in his letter.
Chazin noted in his epistle to the online All_Aboard e-mail railroad list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/all_aboard), “I can’t say that I fully understand Amtrak’s accounting practices, but I understand enough about them to realize that figures claiming that they lose $200 per passenger on a particular train are nonsensical.”
He added, “The problem that an organization such as Amtrak is faced with is how to allocate charges that relate to the organization as a whole to individual trains. Thus, for example, to what do you allocate the salary of the President? What about the cost of maintaining the reservations system?”
In Chazin’s view, “There are some costs that Amtrak would incur regardless of how many trains it operates – or even if it doesn’t operate any trains at all. One very large item (I think that it amounts to about $200 million a year) is the payment of Railroad Retirement Benefits to former employees of other railroads (or something like that).
“For convenience sake, Congress required Amtrak to make these payments, but they have nothing to do with the operation of any trains today.”
Stessel explained, “The data from Amtrak’s financial systems is the source of Amtrak’s audited financial statements. The portion of this data, which is related to trains, is interfaced with the Route Profitability System in order to assign revenues and costs to routes. The system attributes revenues and certain on board train costs directly to trains within routes; however, a material portion of costs is allocated rather than a directly assigned.”
You can see now why it takes a financial guru to understand these ins-and-outs for these kinds of finances. It is not like balancing the ol’ checkbook at home.
Stessel added, “The massive infrastructure needed to run a railroad – reservations, stations, train crews, maintenance-of-way, engineering, dispatching, to name but a few – is not necessarily directly assignable to a specific route and therefore must be allocated based on a driver that best matches the expense to the route, say call volume for reservations.”
He also noted, “It is also correct that eliminating a route or service does not result in a pro-rata reduction in overhead or indirect expenses.”
“The writer’s statement that some of the trains that lose $200 per passenger actually make money on a cash basis is not accurate. A route may make a contribution towards costs; it does not cover all costs necessary to provide the service.”
Chazin told his readers, “As I’ve learned from having served as treasurer of a relatively large non-profit organization (annual budget of about $500,000), accounting is not a precise science. When you hear that Company X earned $2.00 per share last year, that figure assumes a number of arbitrary allocations of revenue and expenses.
The writer attributed the allocation methodology of Amtrak’s overhead costs to ridership. In fact, the majority of Amtrak’s overhead costs (such as legal, accounting, human resources, etc.) are allocated based on total train expense. The driver is based on the belief that the more money a route costs, the more assets or management time the route consumes.”
Chazin noted that in his view, “‘Generally accepted accounting principles’ require that these allocations be done in a standard manner, but any good accountant would be the first to admit that the stated profit per share – even if arrived at in good faith and in full compliance with standard accounting principles – may not give a full and fair financial picture of the company.”
Chazin opined Amtrak’s books are serpentine.
“In the case of Amtrak, matters are particularly complicated. I have seen figures that indicate that on a cash basis, some of the trains, which allegedly lose $200 per passenger, actually make money.
“The Southwest Chief is the example that comes to mind. If you look only at the direct costs that Amtrak incurs by operating that train, it seems that operating revenues fully cover the direct costs of operations (such as the payments to the BNSF Railroad over whose tracks the train operates, the salaries paid to the crew members who run the train, the cost of diesel fuel needed to run the train, the cost of maintaining the equipment used, etc. It’s only when you add a share of Amtrak’s overhead that the train seems to lose an outrageous amount of money.”
Chazin viewed it this way: “Amtrak’s method of accounting appears to use a particularly bizarre method of allocating overhead. It seems the number of passengers who ride a particular train allocates that overhead, at least in part.
“So, the more successful the train is, the more overhead gets allocated to it. That’s why the Southwest Chief appears as such a big loser according to Amtrak’s accounting. In fact, if you’re trying to determine how much money a particular train loses, the only fair way to do it is to estimate how much money would be saved by discontinuing that train.”
He added, however, in the next paragraph, “Everyone who is knowledgeable about Amtrak recognizes that if the Southwest Chief were discontinued, the savings that Amtrak would realize would not approach anything near the $200 per passenger loss that Amtrak now claims to incur. In fact, due to the pivotal importance of that train in our national system, it is very likely that Amtrak would actually lose more money on a cash basis if it discontinued that one train. All of Amtrak’s general overhead would remain, and it would just have to be allocated over fewer trains, which means that those trains would now appear to lose more money.”
Stessel responded, “Regarding the discussion on route performance, the writer has many good points, but is incorrect in some observations.”
An interesting article. Just about every business of any appreciable size struggles with expense allocations at some point in time. It's interesting to see Amtrak struggle with the same issues.
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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Amtrak and Montreal-based Bombardier Transportation, Inc. have put up a cooperative front to fix cracks that have sidelined part of the high-speed Acela Express fleet for two months, but in court, the passenger railroad and the train manufacturer remain locked in a legal battle over who is responsible for the delays and glitches that have plagued America’s first attempt at high-speed rail. At stake, in addition to the companies’ reputations, is up to $450 million in damages and penalties.
Bombardier, a world leader in building railroad equipment and small jet aircraft, contends Amtrak held up production through shifting demands and bad decisions, according to an AP report last week. It even suggested Amtrak intentionally delayed the work because its tracks were not yet ready for high-speed trains – a charge Amtrak called baseless.
Amtrak blames Bombardier and says that by filing its lawsuit, the company violated a contract provision requiring attempts at out-of-court resolutions. The judge last month turned down Amtrak’s request to dismiss the case, but the railroad is appealing.
Meanwhile, Bombardier-hired mechanics and Amtrak officials continue to work together to repair cracks on and near yaw dampers that keep the Acela Express locomotive trucks from hunting.
Amtrak restored full Acela Express service October 25 between New York and Boston, but only partial service continues between New York and Washington.
“It is a complex piece of machinery, and all sorts of different systems, and we disagree totally on who is at fault for each one,” Bombardier lawyer Phil Douglas said in a July 9 hearing in U.S. District Court.
Amtrak lawyer Les Fagen told the judge, “We think we’re owed the money, and the reason is we think Bombardier messed up this contract something fierce.”
Bombardier Corp., the U.S. subsidiary of Bombardier Inc., is seeking at least $200 million in damages. That would be enough cash to cover Amtrak’s operations for nearly three months.
Amtrak has not filed a counter-suit but argues that, under its contract, it reserves the right to seek more than $250 million in penalties for delays, failure to meet contract specifications and inadequate maintenance.
The problems with Acela Express trains, which can reach 150 mph, have hurt the images of both companies. Amtrak, which has relied on government subsidies since its creation in 1971, is struggling to convince lawmakers it should remain in charge of intercity passenger train service.
Bombardier’s lawsuit culminated years of disputes. In hindsight, some critics say Amtrak asked for trouble by trying to introduce high-speed service using a new, untested train design while under financial and political pressure to get it done fast.
“I presume they wanted to be able to sit in front of Congress and say, ‘We designed this little choo-choo. Look how proud we are of ourselves,” said Joseph Vranich. “Well, look what happened.”
When Vranich was president of a rail advocacy group in the 1990s, he urged the railroad to buy high-speed trains already in use in Europe.
Bombardier teamed with Alstom Ltd. of France to win the Acela Express contract in 1996. In addition to building the trains, Bombardier is under contract to maintain and repair the trains for 10 years.
The FRA required the carbuilders to meet FRA crash safety standards, which are much more stringent than European designs.
Alstom did not join in the complaint Bombardier filed in November 2000.
Bombardier alleges Amtrak did not sufficiently upgrade tracks in the Northeast to prepare for the new trains, provided inaccurate information about tunnels and tracks and imposed “costly and time-consuming new design requirements” that, among other things, made the trains too heavy for high-speed service.
Bombardier said the paper trail of Amtrak’s meddling consists of more than 19,900 letters, 9,000 engineering change notices and 4,700 retrofit notices.
Bombardier has not directly linked design disputes to the cracks that sidelined the entire Acela Express fleet in August, but one dispute involved wheel assemblies under train cars and locomotives.
Aside from the cracking issue, Amtrak says the first 18 high-speed trains it received from Bombardier needed numerous repairs and modifications. Amtrak recently took possession of a 19th, and a final one is expected soon.
The case has twice been reassigned, most recently to U.S. District Court Judge Richard J. Leon. To reach trial, thousands of pages of Bombardier documents will have to be translated from French. Douglas, the lawyer for Bombardier, told Leon at the July 9 hearing that the case could be ready for trial in two years, at the soonest.
Amtrak President David Gunn said recently that a settlement would be welcome, but he was not optimistic.
“One of the things that happens in those cases is you end up spending a bloody fortune, both sides,” Gunn said. “If they came to us and said they wanted to talk, would we talk? Of course. But whether we can settle it, I don’t know.”
Bombardier trainsets are pure crap. I cannot post everything going on...we must all assume the position with liberal applications of'TA Green Monkey Oil.'
I sorta like Bombbardier. The propulsion sound on takeoff is intoxicating, although the audio system and sign systems suck.
Just wait till you're a passenger and stuck in the tunnel with a pull-apart or failure of propulsion. Trains are junk.
TA should have ordered the Labatts option for the cars. Then nobody would be grumpy and would actually wave OFF the pusher train. :)
When will the R1442's be redone just like the R68's?
R142s are expected to have a thirty year lifespan. My experience is that these trainsets out of warranty will not be reliable in RTO service for more than five years. Trucks will have to be replaced, software brough up to date and scratchitti tolerated.
Aren't the new tech trains designed to be be extremely flexible, I mean, why is this software so impossible to update? There should be an ethernet port right on the coupler and every night, every train gets its daily download of info. This includes service changes. There would be a master computer in each yard, and a super master computer in the MTA office.
I've been on a few Bombardier R142s with upgraded software. Cars 6801-05 display "The Next Stop Is . . ." on the interior destination signs and they announce "This is West Farms Sq - East Tremont Avenue." They also announce "Transfer is available to the 5 train" at East 180th Street in the Manhattan-bound direction. I also rode on cars 6481-85, which announced "This is a Brooklyn-bound, Flatbush Avenue-bound, 2 Express train."
"There should be an ethernet port right on the coupler and every night, every train gets its daily download of info."
You don't create new versions of operational software every day if you expect the equipment to keep on running. You do new releases from time to time and test the hell out of them, then download them into the system.
It would be nice if new DATA (such as names of connecting trains) could be downloaded more easily without any need to change the software. That looks like a design flaw.
Actually, I consider that to be BRILLIANT SECURITY ... you've got to change a CHIP to change ANYTHING on the train. Think about the implications of hacker kiddies, viruses, Microsoft anything ... would YOU want to be on a train that could be HACKED? So while it might be a pain in the butt, it certainly strikes ME as SMART.
Aside from 9/11 and bridge closings in general, how often do routes and stations along them actually change? Normally. By going with a method that can only be changed by opening up a box and replacing a fixed memory chip, I'd say that's actually pretty damned smart even if inconvenient. Prevents ankle-biting virus writers from wreaking havoc if you think about it.
I'm still worried about CBTC though - that's hackable ...
Good point about the security. But it shouldn't take 6 to 15 months to get the new chip (recently took a #6 train that still didn't know about the changes at 63rd St.)
As for how often are there changes, it seems like an average of once a year. So there doesn't need to be a really quick mechanism, but there needs to be something that doesn't require a new software release.
I predict the following service changes, each of which will require changes to the announcements.
early 2003: service cuts (e.g., less M service).
late 2003: PATH service reinstated at WTC.
late 2004: MB reopens, but with an austerity service plan. Massive service changes.
2005: economy gets better and some lines are restored.
2006: Some new connection opens somewhere (maybe Bway Lafayette and Bleecker northbound).
2007: E connected to 4/5 at Fulton St. with all that entails.
I honestly don't know what's sitting on the motherboards of the new tech trains, but I'll venture a *GUESS* ... the announcement and sign control system probably reads a 256K 40 pin memory chip using "EEROM" type technology (Electrically Eraseable Read Only Memory) and it's PROBABLY in a socket. For the hackers, they'd have to gain entrance to the equipment cabinet in a cab, open a box, pull out the motherboard with live power on it, pull a chip, and plug in a new one. Since the train is POWERED, byebye motherboard. (See? Even MORE security against tampering with a tightly controlled number of people permitted to perform the task) ...
There'd be no WASTE with EEROMS, just a matter of returning the old one to the software people, erase it, dump the NEW code into it, put it on the "replacement parts" shelf to go out again. So what would be required for changes is moving each car into the shop, having someone open the box, swap chips and away you go with the new codes. I'd also *GUESS* that the announcement and signage stuff is on a SEPARATE computer so a failure there wouldn't affect safe operation of the train's propulsion, braking and control systems.
However, doing all that swapping out when a car isn't in for "troubles" would certainly be a waste of manpower. But at least it's more secure than leaving an ethernet port hanging for some ne'er-do-well with a laptop and too much time on their hands from screwing up the railroad.
So I'm agreeing with your point and hopefully there's provisions, but I also don't think it'd be a very good idea for those of us NOT working in car equipment to discuss the details much further, also for security purposes. Sometimes obscurity is a good thing, I'm hoping that the cars were designed on a basis similar to what I've described. If so, I'm *VERY* comfortable with the design as someone who earns their living dealing with computers, security and hunting down digital evil-doers and slaying their nasties for a living. :)
Maybe you don't know this, but nearly every 2 train, including the most recent arrivals on the line, still makes the pre-7/22/01 announcements. Most are confusing, and PATH at Park Place is insulting. Few C/R's, IME, bother to replace the erroneous announcements or even to cut them out. (And I've only once heard the V announced at 14th; I've never heard the midday M added at Fulton.)
Most 6 trains similarly have outdated announcements.
And the strip maps, even on the trains with updated announcements, are out-of-date.
The system is apparently a bit too inconvenient to update.
Either that, or it's still UNDER WARRANTEE ... "no user-serviceable components inside until you pay us to learn HOW to open it." Once again, I can only GUESS, but perhaps opening up the box, pulling the motherboard and replacing the memory chip might be legally risky since the vendors and the TA still have "issues" ... I can also tell you that these "new tech" cars are something entirely NEW to people whose car maintenance experience involves sledgehammers. Maybe the TA isn't yet up to speed on the software dump to chip angles yet or there are other issues that cause them to prefer to leave the boxes alone until everything ELSE works.
No, I haven't witnessed bad announcements, and forgive me here - I'm a throwback to the Arnines. If the train MOVED, it was a JOYOUS day. New Yorkers didn't give a QWAP if the rollsigns were wrong or if the train was two minutes late as long as one SHOWED UP. I guess there's a major loss as a result of the marker lights going away, you could ALWAYS count on a motorman to make sure their bulbs on the bulkhead were the right color ALWAYS or they'd have to explain why they took a wrong lineup (because THEY created the wrong lineup with their lights). But please forgive me if I consider announcements and signage to be PETTY, it's just my own personal experience and expectations back in the 60's and 70's ... a train showing up WAS good enough then. :)
That all said, I have faith that once the TA gets up to speed, it won't be so hard to do. I strongly suspect there are the other issues I mentioned as the REAL reason why things ain't happy right now. Hey. I remember when "air conditioned trains" were SPECIAL, and you didn't care if one wasn't completely cold. It was STILL colder than an Arnine. Heh. Maybe this needs the same "I'll be patient, but PLEASE work on that" we did back then. But I'm SURE the equipment can do it, and will not that far in the future ...
"New Yorkers didn't give a QWAP if the rollsigns were wrong or if the train was two minutes late as long as one SHOWED UP. I guess there's a major loss as a result of the marker lights going away"
I used the subway in the 60s and 70s and I sure got pissed if a train didn't go where the rollsigns said it was going. I never got to memorize the marker lights because I didn't use the train to go to the same place every day.
Also, back then NYC was less of a tourist place; also life in general was more rigid. A greater percentage of riders were doing the same run back and forth every day. Now there is a lot more casual use, and the casual users can really get messed up if you misinform them. They get messed up easily enough when you tell them the facts correctly.
Also, there were fewer changes back then. Looking at the map page on this site, in the entire 60s and 70s there was only one real change, the Christie St connection. Otherwise it was localized stuff like abandonment of shuttles and Els (3rd Ave, Culver, Myrtle), plus the KK train.
I do remember that when the Chrystie St connection opened, the papers covered the complaints for a long period of time. People had no clue what to do.
By comparison, in the last 10 yrs we've had the MB changes, 63rd St, work on the WB, and several different service plans to deal with the destruction of the WTC. And as I mentioned in another post, we're sure to have significant changes once a year for the upcoming future as well.
Yeah, guess you're right ... wasn't LIKE that back then. If you used the subways, you took personal responsibility and KNEW your train. Then again back then, we had numerous OTHER cheats other than knowing that GREEN/GREEN on the rooftop meant that it was a northbound D train and it would run Express from 145th to Tremont ... we had all those DIFFERENT car types and you could tell your route JUST by what rolled in ... if it was a 32 or an Arnine, it was a D train. 42's, 44's and 46's were cheating - there was this HUGE orange D you could see from two stations down the line if it didn't have markers.
If it was a SLANT, it was an F train, if it looked like a 32 but was REALLY a 38, it could be an E *or* an F (so you'd have to look at the marker lights or see if the route designator on the bulkhead was robin's egg blue (E) or magenta (F) ... sure wouldn't be a D ... R10's were A trains (and ONLY A trains) etc, etc, etc.
TOURISTS would spot the conductor and ASK ... if they didn't have the sense God gave them to stand at the MIDDLE of the platform (not knowing train lengths) then they'd spot the guy with the brrom and the uniform and ask THEM which train was which.
But yeah, after seeing the vote the other day, I guess people need a personal psychic and correct signage to remind them to (Sam Kinnison, now kids) ***BREATHE*** ...
Sheesh ... whatever happened to "you're on the wrong train, moron" followed by a sheepish look, followed by crossing the platform and going BACK to Manhattan and try again? :)
Whew! I think the whole problem was going all the way back to Manhattan. We don't need better signage, we need to extend the G line across Riker's Island.
OOOH! I'd put my job ticket on the extra list for THAT! :)
If memory serves, NYCT Senior Vice President-Subways Joe Hofmann has been quoted as saying the cars are supposed to last FIFTY years, not thirty.
David
Hahahahaha ... sorry, I'm just trying to rationalize that with the lifespan of other hoopy-scoopy "high tech" like computers, telco switches, automobiles and other "high tech" ... not that I'm a Luddite, but GEEZ ... NOTHING lasts thirty years anymore. Ask Joe if he can pass that funny cigarette over this way. :)
Apologies for putting it that way but I just don't see them doing 50 years with thermoplastics, PVC wire and all things modern without GOH's every five years ...
PERSONAL opinion. This is featuritis a la Microsoft Word fixing my spelling as I type. Zippy the Paper Clip Rides the Rails. A rugged train with rugged trackside and in-cab signaling provides good service. Good platform signage -- maybe with the addition of London-type time-to-arrival and SERVICE CHANGES, PLEASE -- is a good addition. Putting all the information on board is just the Pink on the Princess Phone. It's too little too late.
Ah, just wait until the TA discovers PUSH BUTTON phones! The platform signage guy will ALSO sell batteries, two dollah. :)
bombardier being crap is just your experience. looking at their record, they aren't crap. they are more reliable than any other railcar maker. if it weren't for that, they would not be the world leader in railcars. as for the Bomb. R-142's you say they are crap. well you work on them so i can't really argue BUT, are you saying they are crap because of their salty debut? because i ride those so-called lemons and i have yet to have gotten stuck on them. i do agree that in the beginning, they have fallen apart and i did get stuck on one last year when the propulsion system failed (summer 2001 set 6501-6505) but, i cannot agree with you anymore that they are crap because they haven't caused much problem. even because you work on them.
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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An Amtrak “extra” train roared through a sliver of southern Illinois last Friday at 109.6 mph. It was part of a first-of-its-kind test of satellite technology crucial to the introduction of high-speed passenger operations in Illinois, according to the Chicago Sun-Times.
The journey marked the first time in recent history a local train moved so quickly, but the focus was more on how well the technology worked rather than the speed itself.
“We see it as the first step toward our goal of reducing the travel times from St. Louis to Chicago to just a shade over 3_ hours,” John Schwalbach, chief of the Illinois DOT’s bureau of railroads said.
The technology is part of the positive train control system. Using satellites, it pinpoints a train’s location, helping trigger crossing gates, avoid collisions and adhere to posted speeds.
The test occurred on Amtrak’s Chicago-to-St. Louis corridor from Normal to Lexington on Union Pacific tracks, where the current top speed is 79 mph.
The train had a normal Amtrak diesel locomotive on each end, and two café cars and a coach in the middle. They cruised at nearly 110 mph for one-third of the 15-mile stretch. The cars carried political leaders and the press.
Still unclear is when high-speed service might actually begin.
Planning progresses on this and other Chicago-based corridors, but long-range funding is elusive.
Amtrak CEO David Gunn, believes states wanting high-speed rail should pick up more of the financial burden. At least for now, he told the Chicago Sun-Times, they also should abandon thoughts of pricey new high-speed trains, like those on the East Coast, and look to the existing fleet or something less expensive.
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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The State of New York will be spending more than $9 million to upgrade its Beacon Station, and another $4 Million to improve Poughkeepsie Station where Amtrak calls.
Gov. George E. Pataki said last week the funding would expand access to the Metro-North Railroad’s station in Beacon. The cash is part of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s (MTA) comprehensive 2000-2004 Capital Program.
“By providing additional parking, expanded access and improved facilities for the growing ridership utilizing our Metro-North stations in Beacon and Poughkeepsie, we will help further the economic and cultural revitalization taking place in the Hudson Valley,” Pataki said.
“These investments will make the stations even more attractive and inviting destinations for commuters, and for visitors who can enjoy all that our Hudson Valley cities have to offer.”
The funding for the Beacon station will help complete construction of a walkway to connect the Beacon train station, the waterfront and the new Dia Museum. The quarter-mile walkway will use the existing Red Flynn Drive Bridge, but will extend southward on the east side of the tracks to the old Nabisco factory. The factory is currently being reconstructed as a museum to house Dia’s internationally acclaimed collection of modern art. The museum is expected to open next spring.
The Poughkeepsie improvements include rehabilitation of the overpass and platform canopies, as well as lengthening the canopy to cover the entire platform. It also includes replacing two staircases, one from the platform to the overpass and the other from the platform to Main Street. These will complement the recent restoration of the historic covered walkway and intermodal facility, as well as a new three-level parking garage.
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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Fanning the flames of an already testy feud, Amtrak’s controversial president is privately blasting the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for putting out to bid a new commuter-rail contract that makes “a mockery of the competitive process.”
In a memo to Amtrak’s board of directors on October 24, David Gunn said the labor provisions included in the new contract have given away the store to workers, who rank among the lowest paid unionized railroad workers in the nation who are angling for hefty raises.
“Clearly, the MBTA has put labor in an incredibly powerful bargaining position and made a mockery of the competitive process,” Gunn wrote in his memo, obtained by the Boston Herald.
“The winning bidder will be the one paying the highest salaries. Labor will determine the successful bidder,” he noted.
While Amtrak bowed out of the bidding for the five-year commuter contract early, citing cost concerns, three companies have submitted proposals. MBTA officials, who hope to make a recommendation to the agency’s board of directors in December, are reviewing those.
The contract requires that Amtrak’s replacement retain the current work force and keep existing workplace rules in place.
The purpose of the memo was unclear, and Amtrak officials were unavailable for comment, but MBTA general manager Mike Mulhern said Gunn’s assessment of the new contract was off base.
“The conclusions he has drawn are inaccurate,” said Mulhern. “I’m not sure if he’s even read the (contract). Having said that, though, I want to emphasize that the MBTA is very pleased at the way Mr. Gunn has handled the (contract) procurement and we wish the very best to Amtrak in their future struggles on a national level.”
The memo follows months of bickering and finger-pointing between Gunn and Mulhern, who have butted heads since Gunn threatened to send commuter rail workers home this summer because of Amtrak’s latest funding crisis.
The T’s commuter rail is the nation’s fourth largest, but union officials are quick to say that workers are ranked dead last in wages among the 19 largest systems nationwide.
“David Gunn is trying to blow up the bidding process,” said Charlie Moneypenny of the Commuter Rail Labor Coalition, which represents about 1,300 of the 1,600 T workers.
“That’s what Amtrak’s strategy has been from the beginning… so the MBTA will have to come crawling back.”
T officials are strident that that will never happen.
Meanwhile, Gunn tried to assure Amtrak’s board that he made the right call in not submitting a bid.
“I would also suggest that Amtrak was wise to have nothing to do with the MBTA (bidding) process,” he wrote. “We must maintain a business-like relationship with labor if we hope to survive.”
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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A 15-mile monorail route between the northern Delaware communities of Blue Ball and Glasgow is the top pick for a proposed regional rail system that would be the first in the state.
The proposed route, which begins at the Blue Ball properties in Brandywine Hundred off U.S. Route 202, would include stops along Delaware 141 at the New Castle County Airport complex, Christiana Mall and the Fox Run Shopping Center, according to The AP via The Wilmington News Journal of October 1.
The route was chosen by members of a steering committee, made up of Wilmington Area Planning Council staff, residents and politicians, that worked to figure out how many people would use a regional rail service and the best route for it.
Heather Dunigan, senior planner for the council, said the group chose the route from among about a dozen other options, which included one from Newark to Fairplay train station in Stanton and another from Blue Ball to Brandywine Town Center, a shopping plaza on Concord Pike.
She said the Glasgow route was the best because it would serve people commuting to work in downtown Wilmington as well as the suburbs. It would also ease congestion on heavily traveled roads and cut down on the number of cars contributing to air pollution.
“We know that this route needs work, but it was the best option to do preliminary studies [on],” Dunigan said.
The Wilmington Area Planning Council, which operates on state and federal tax dollars, is responsible for coordinating New Castle County and Cecil County, Md., transportation plans.
Wilmington resident Roy Podorson, who supports a rail system, said at a workshop last week he is happy that the council is studying a monorail system.
“This route doesn’t look fast enough, but it’s a start,” said Podorson, who has used public rail systems in other areas.
“If Delaware doesn’t consider something like this soon, in 10 years, we are going to be in trouble.”
The council’s commitment to studying a monorail system is due in large part to the crowded roads and Delaware’s urgent need to meet federal clean air laws, said state Rep. David H. Ennis ®. Earlier this year, the Environmental Protection Agency found New Castle County among the areas nationwide with high toxic air pollution-related cancer risks, based on 1996 conditions and data. Many of the pollutants come largely from vehicle exhaust, the EPA reported.
“We can either do it now and get ahead of the curve, or do it later and play catch-up,” Ennis said of efforts to improve the state’s air quality.
Critics, however, have said monorails are too expensive.
The Monorail Society’s Web site, which Wilmington-area planners have used as a reference in their studies, cites cost figures for monorails in other areas ranging from $6.5 million per mile to $68 million per mile.
In Seattle, Wash., voters will decided tomorrow whether to accept a proposal to build a downtown monorail system for $1.2 billion.
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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The Western New York & Pennsylvania Railroad’s track department sweated and grunted doing the work they’ve done so far, now they have 66 more miles to get back into running condition in southwestern New York, between Olean and Hornell. The line used to be Erie’s main stem – before Conrail, before Penn Central, before Erie-Lackawanna.
The line in Cattaraugus and Steuben Counties will cost $2 million for additional track work, which will include tie replacement. The state has already invested $4.1 million for initial track and grade crossing improvements for a total investment of $6.1 million.
On October 24, New York Gov. George Pataki said, “Today, we celebrate the rebirth of rail in the Southern Tier. This newly re-established rail link will increase the movement of freight through the area by linking Southern Tier businesses with major existing rail lines, spurring economic activity, new investment and job creation.”
The restored line, part of what is known as the Southern Tier Extension, re-establishes a local service link and connections between major railroads in Hornell and Northeastern Pennsylvania for the first time in 11 years. Total state, federal and private investments made along the entire route of the Southern Tier Extension totals over $12 million.
No one is currently running on the line because of its poor condition, “but the plan is to be operational on January 1, 2003,” Michael Griffin, the state’s regional public affairs officer told D:F last week.
The tracks “pass through Hornell, Alfred, Andsover, Wellsville and Olean, in New York,” he said, “to Corry Pennsylvania,” he said.
WNY&P spokesman Vince Millikan – who wears a variety of hats on the short line– told D:F We have some continuous welded rail on wooden ties, but we’re inserting wood ties” in the new section.
“Rail weights vary from 110 pounds-per yard to 136,” he said.
Conrail shut down the rail line 1991 due to a variety of economic factors, and it forced shippers and receivers to end their loads onto awkward routes to ship goods to and through the Southern Tier.
“Olean to Corry, Penn., is operational, but Olean to Hornell is being worked on currently” Griffin said. He added, the work involves “Scouring washouts and tie replacement.” The work is beginning in “Hornell and ending in Corry.”
He also explained “It is the original Erie Line which became the Erie Lackawanna.”
The Southern Tier West Railroad Authority, comprised of representatives from Chautauqua, Allegany, Steuben and Cattaraugus counties, negotiated an agreement with current track owner, Norfolk Southern, and a new operator, the Western New York and Pennsylvania Railroad, to re-open the stretch, which has leased the line from NS for 30 years.
The restored 66-mile stretch of line fills a gap in what is known as the Southern Tier Extension, the rail line that runs from Hornell to Meadville, Penn. Other work on portions of the extension between Olean and Meadville was completed independently.
Full restoration of the extension serves as an important economic development tool. Shippers on the line will have competitive access to a number of additional large rail carriers, including CP Rail at Hornell, The Buffalo and Pittsburgh Railroad at Salamanca, and the New York and Lake Erie Railroad at Waterboro, providing a more direct route of access to cities and businesses throughout the Northeast and reducing shipping costs.
Rehabilitation of the line will help improve rail access to businesses such as Alstom in Wellsville, makers of industrial pre-heaters and Monofrax, Inc. in Jamestown, makers of industrial composites.
State Transportation Commissioner Joseph H. Boardman said, “We are yet again restoring an important piece of the state’s rail infrastructure. This restoration will greatly enhance the speed and efficiency of freight rail service in the Southern Tier and help improve competitiveness of regional businesses.”
The return of service to the line is seen as a significant achievement since most rail lines that have remained dormant for more than a few years rarely escape abandonment.
The charter for the New York & Erie Railroad “was approved by the New York State legislature on April 24, 1832 and specified that the western end of the line must be on the shore of Lake Erie in Chautauqua County,” writes rail historian Norman P. Carlson in “The Advent of the Railroad in Western New York, and in the Jamestown Post-Journal, Jamestown, N.Y., 1992
By 1939, the Erie branched off its double-track main at Hornell to go northward on a secondary main track to Buffalo. The main eventually went to Chicago.
Western New York & Pennsylvania’s (WNYP) timetable for restoring service is in three steps, the first of which has already been done – opened for service between Wellsville and Olean by last September 30.
The next major task is to open the line between Meadville and Hornell at 25 mph or better by December 31, and the final task, at least for now, is to continue rehabilitating the railroad during 2003, and aimed at raising all main track speeds to 40 mph.
WNYP operated a work train from Olean to Wellsville last September 30, marking the first time a train used the former Erie line to Wellsville since 1994, when Conrail operated one train for an Air Preheater Corp. shipment. The last regular freight train service ended in 1991.
WNYP president William D. Burt, who was on the train, noted that many of the children who lined the tracks along the route had never seen a train in their home town. Its appearance in Wellsville was made possible by repair of a 360-foot long, 17-foot high washout along the Genesee River near Belmont, N.Y. John Anderson Construction of Warren, Penn., repaired the washout.
WNYP
It took a little while to raise the old track (left), lay in a new foundation and bank along the Genesee River, realign the iron and put down fresh ballast, but Anderson Construction got the job done for WNYP. They started in June and were finished by September.
The Belmont was “The first step of a large-scale rehabilitation of the railroad that is being funded by a $3 million grant from the U.S. Department of Commerce Economic Development Administration grant and a $2 million grant from the New York State DOT, as well as capital investments by WNYP,” the carrier states on its web site. WNYP employees performed other repairs making the line passable to Wellsville over several weeks.
Erie
D:F featured Erie passing through Corning, N.Y. ca. 1955 in the October 21 edition.
With the split of Conrail in 1998, the former Erie main line between Hornell, N.Y. and Corry, Penn., became part of the Norfolk Southern Ry.
In February 2001, NS entered into a ten-year sale/leaseback agreement with the Southern Tier Extension Rail Authority, which had been formed by Chautauqua, Cattaraugus, Allegany, and Steuben Counties to ease the railway tax burden, and to get grant funding to re-establish the rail line as an essential part of the region’s economic development infrastructure. In April 2001, NS subleased the Hornell-Corry line to WNYP for 30 years.
Subsequently, WNYP reopened the long-closed segment between Jamestown and Corry, and acquired a connecting 42-mile segment between Corry and Meadville, Pa., with the objective of re-establishing a continuous route between connections with NS at Meadville and Hornell.
The Western New York & Pennsylvania Railroad is online at http://www.wnyprr.com/
That's exciting news! I went to college in Western NY, and for a couple of years lived in Dunkirk, literally 50 feet from the Norfolk & Southern tracks. It was a railfan's dreamhome! It helped that I grew up a couple of hundred yards from the Brighton elevated. I was already immune to the noise. There was a turn in the track just before it got to my house, as well as a grade crossing a block apart on both streets to the side of the house. So, as you looked out my livingroom window, the train came on a straight line towards the house and then turned less than a quarter of a mile before the house. There's nothing like using a freight train bearing down on you as a night light!
From this weeks Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11042002.shtml
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An Atlanta firm has successfully defended CSX Transportation Inc. in a $12 million wrongful-death claim that stemmed from a triple fatality at a Vienna, Ga., railroad crossing.
The litigation relied, in part, on data stored by a “black box” that General Motors, Inc. began installing in some of its vehicles in 1990. It was the first railroad crossing accident case in the United States to go to trial using GM’s black box data as evidence, said Matthew D. Williams, a partner at Atlanta’s Casey Gilson Leibel, who defended CSX.
Black box data was not available to anyone outside GM and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration until two years ago when Cobb County, Ga., attorney Matthew C. Flournoy forced the automaker, as part of a wrongful-death suit, to release and interpret recorded data from the device, also known as a sensing and diagnostic module. The device is similar to those in airliners that record and preserve flight data moments before a crash, according to the Fulton County Daily Report via Law.com on October 31.
Williams said he, partner James E. Gilson and co-counsel Carr G. Dodson of Jones, Cork & Miller in Macon, Ga., won the case after floating a settlement offer that would have paid the 15-year-old plaintiff, who was the only survivor of the car’s four occupants, about $4 million over the course of her life. Her lawyers rejected the offer.
The Macon jury, Williams said, “decided the railroad played no part” in causing the accident, which killed the teen-ager’s brother, father and stepmother.
The jury deliberated a day at the end of a two-week trial before delivering its verdict. (Wright v. CSX Transportation, 5:01-cv-324-4 (M.D. Ga. Oct. 1, 2002).
“We established that the railroad was zero percent at fault,” Williams continued. “It did absolutely nothing that contributed to the accident.”
The teen’s attorneys included former Georgia Supreme Court Justice Hardy Gregory Jr. of Gregory Christy & Manikal in Cordele, Ga.
Gary C. Christy, through his assistant, referred all questions to Gregory. Gregory was out of town for three weeks and could not be reached for comment.
Williams said the car’s driver, Kevin Wright Sr., his wife and his son died in the late-night crash. The family was returning from a deposition in Albany, Ga., where the two children had testified in a civil action springing from the death of their mother, who had died in an accident caused by a drunken driver.
Wright was driving across a set of three tracks at the crossing, despite the flashing signal that indicated a train was approaching, Williams said.
The train crew testified that they sounded the horn as their train, its headlights lit, approached the intersection. Georgia law bars drivers from crossing railroad tracks when faced with flashing lights until they can do so safely, but the plaintiff’s attorneys argued that Wright’s view of the track on which the fast-moving train was traveling was obscured by a small building between two sets of tracks and by tank cars parked there, Williams said.
In addition, the plaintiff’s lawyers argued, the railroad crossing where the crash occurred had a history of false signal activations.
Williams said the railroad offered to settle as part of court-ordered mediation, but “the mediation broke down fairly quickly” when the plaintiff’s lawyers refused anything less than $11.5 million. When the railroad’s attorneys offered a $4 million annuity payable over the teen’s lifetime, the plaintiff’s lawyers countered with a $4 million lump-sum payment, which the railroad rejected.
The “cutting-edge technology” of the black box in the rental Cadillac that Wright was driving helped the railroad make its case, Williams said. The box captures data in the five seconds prior to the deployment of a car’s air bags, including the vehicle’s speed, brake application, engine rpm and throttle position.
The information obtained from the black box indicated that the car was going 11 mph as Wright crossed the triple set of tracks and then stopped immediately prior to impact, according to Williams. It also indicated, based on calculations by a Georgia state trooper who downloaded the data, that Wright coasted past the flashing signal without stopping, the lawyer said. Williams said the train crew saw Wright’s wife look up at the train, point at it and then turn back toward her husband in the seconds before the crash.
“We think she might have said the train was coming, and his initial response was to stop. If he had never slowed, but maintained that 11 mph, he wouldn’t have been hit... All he had to do was go another 12 feet and he was clear,” Williams said.
“This black box is what helps us understand how all this unfolded. I do not know of a jury trial where the data has been used. I know there has not been one in this country where it was used in a grade-crossing accident.”
Williams said obtaining black box data from GM was not an issue in the CSX litigation. Since Flournoy’s suit two years ago, GM has granted a license to a private firm to sell software that will download and read black box data, he said. “There was no need to get involved with GM.”
...Wright coasted past the flashing signal without stopping, the lawyer said. Williams said the train crew saw Wright’s wife look up at the train, point at it and then turn back toward her husband in the seconds before the crash.
“We think she might have said the train was coming, and his initial response was to stop. If he had never slowed, but maintained that 11 mph, he wouldn’t have been hit... All he had to do was go another 12 feet and he was clear,” Williams said.
Ok, a train is coming, what to do? Stopping on the tracks sounds very logical, huh? Typical South Georgia dumbasses.
By the way, I was in Cordele, GA mentioned above (that place sucks) a couple of weeks ago inspecting five bridges. I was inspecting an interstate bridge that was crossing over a two track CSX line. We didn't stand on the tracks when a freight train came barreling past us. We even parked our truck on a dirt access road instead of on the tracks. We is smart.
This case appears to have only used the black box in the automobile. How common are black boxes in locomotives now-a-days? Are black boxes installed in any NYC transit equipment?
All locomotives need to have an Event Recorder in order to go above 25 mph.
Presumably that's for railroads under FRA jurisdiction. Are black boxes used/required in transit systems?
I do not believe they are required on Transit Systems. And their are called event recorders, not black boxes.
The IRT R-142s are equipted with event recorders. I am sure the R-143s are as well.
An appropriate verdict.
If the article is accurate about the flashing light being like a stop sign, then perhaps Georgia law needs to be changed. With three tracks, one ought to add a crossing gate. It should be illegal to enter a railroad crossing until the gate is up and the red lights are off. No exceptions.
A new MEM-MVM pair is now up and running at the corner of 87th and Broadway, at the part-time entrance to the 1/9. Due to tight quarters downstairs, the machines are at street level. They were still not operational yesterday at 4pm; when I passed at 8, someone appeared to be working on them; when I passed again at 9:30, they were running.
The downside? They're behind a gate that's locked 82% of the time. I'm hoping that the next step will be a removal of the booth downstairs (which fills up half of the space down there) and a replacement of the three turnstiles with three HEETs, at which point the entrance (and machines) can become full-time.
I noticed the working machines on my way to school this morning. They really need to get HEET's down there and dissasemble the booth.
What are MEM's? HEET's?
MetroCard Express Machine (a small MetroCard vending machine that doesn't take cash)
High Entry-Exit Turnstile
One of my favorite railfan sites is the abandoned BMT Chambers St side platform. Its very rare for NYCT to allow a facility that has been disused for so long and has become so dilapidated to remain in plain view of the public. I'm very surprised it wasn't walled off years ago.
What do you think will become of that platform? Will it eventually be walled off? I hope that NYCT will recognize it for the historic treasure it is and restore it to its original glory, with proper lighting and all, and leave it there for the public to see.
Or, it could be turned into a lower Manhattan annex of the Transit Museum, featuring subway curios and a gift shop.
I would hate for Transit to simply wall it off the way it has so many other subway treasures. But, I guess that might be the cheapest way to go.
On the contrary, there are many disused platforms that are still in public view: Columbus Circle, 96th Street, Bowling Green, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and all of the IRT Bronx terminals come to mind. Stations that have been bypassed (Worth, 18th, 91st, Myrtle northbound) are dimly lit but aren't walled off. In fact, I can't think of a single disused platform that has been walled of for no other reason.
On the contrary, there are many disused platforms that are still in public view: Columbus Circle, 96th Street, Bowling Green, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and all of the IRT Bronx terminals come to mind. Stations that have been bypassed (Worth, 18th, 91st, Myrtle northbound) are dimly lit but aren't walled off. In fact, I can't think of a single disused platform that has been walled of for no other reason.
The side platforms at Brooklyn Bridge and Union Square come to mind.
Those are what I was thinking of when I wrote this. I know those stations are also in plain view, but not to the extent Chambers is.
While BB was being rehabbed a ways back, the uptown wall platform was open for all to see for quite a while. It gave the whole station a different look. It's original mosaics and tilework were also remarkably well preserved. The rehabbed tilework was a poor attempt at reproducing it. Alas, I've never seen the side platforms at US.
Those are what I was thinking of when I wrote this. I know those stations are also in plain view, but not to the extent Chambers is. Those closed stations are dark and unless you're on a fan trip or on a congested line, you'll never get more than a visual swipe at those stations. Chambers just sits there for all the world to see.
The side platforms at Brooklyn Bridge and Union Square come to mind.
Amazingly, the local platforms at Brooklyn Bridge are in better shape than Chambers Street! And they are not even in clear view to the public like Chambers Street. See here from a tour in 1996:
Stations that have been bypassed (Worth, 18th, 91st, Myrtle northbound) are dimly lit but aren't walled off.
And the ceiling at 91st Street is in better shape than Chambers Street also! Actually, the tiles at both 18th and 91st are in pretty good shape, although covered with grafitti. At least they don't seem to be falling off the walls (not that it matters there anyway). The only thing that makes Chamber's wall platforms look to be in better shape than these two abandoned ones is that they at least remove the grafitti when it occurs.
it could be turned into a lower Manhattan annex of the Transit Museum, featuring subway curios and a gift shop.
I like this thought.
What do you think will become of that platform? Will it eventually be walled off? I hope that NYCT will recognize it for the historic treasure it is and restore it to its original glory, with proper lighting and all, and leave it there for the public to see.
I agree with that, as long as they keep the current track arrangement in effect. If they ever decide to do something similar to what they are doing at Canal, and they use the western tracks, it's best if they wall all the unused platforms up. However if they elect to use the eastern tracks (or the current arrangement) the platform should be restored.
It is really intersesting to look at, and the tilework is beautiful (although dirty and needing help). It should be cleaned up, and kept clean. There is no excuse that it should be so filthy and covered with garbage. 59th Street has an abandoned platform, and it isn't strewn with garbage, at least not like Chambers.
Pavonia-Newark on the PATH had a closed platform for many years and it has now been renovated, though it is still not in use.
Not for long.
That station is becoming increasingly crowded as that area is built up.
I believe now they are building an elevator to that platform and once that is complete the platform will be open for Hoboken and 33rd-bound services.
It'll be like Bowling Green.
I just started posting some photos online and was hoping this would work, so basically this is just a test post to see if people can see the photo when posted (before I waste time really starting to upload photos, which I won't do, if I can't use them here every once in a while).
Well, I didn't upload any subway photos yet, so this LIRR one will have to do for the test...(no it's not an ad for Getty gasoline....)
It was taken on December 25, 1991. (I better clean the dust off some of my slides before I scan some more - but again, it was basically a test).
Nope, got a box with a message that said "Sorry...You are trying to access an image from outside of ImageStation.com."
Shoot, I'll have to try again.
Okay, let me try again with a different photo and the old one, it works in my preview, so maybe it will work when it's posted.
Looks good to me.
Hey, where did you find such a clean railfan window?
It was around 1992, and "scratchitti" didn't take hold yet! Actually, the R42's had just come back from from being rebuilt, and I was more excited about them than the R27-30's that may still have been running there around that time (I forgot when they were retired - they may have been on the C only in 1992).
Notice all the great ironwork that is unfortunately all gone on the WillyB. Actually that scene is quite different now (And R42's rustier.....).
Nice shots! Chris, you have quite the eye for composition for an amateur photographer.
Thanks! I enjoy doing it. I just wish I had more time to do it though.
Works fine for me.
Oh good, if it works for at least one other computer, where the original photo wasn't already loaded into, then it shouldn't be anything I am doing wrong.
Could be a slow connection and then it times out.
Really strange. When I clicked the first time, the picture appeared.
When I went back after reading the following posts, up comes an ImageStation error.
Now, even after exiting SubTalk and cleaning out the browser's cache, the error message is still here.
It was a neat photo, and great for a rail xmas card.
Thanks! Actually I got it to work from the first post the first time, but doesn't work anymore for me. It works each time on one of the follow-up posts (M train and LIRR Photo), when I posted it a different way, after re-uploading the photo - go figure. The original one doesn't work for some reason.
I'm flying in to The City for the weekend and am going to railfan a bit on Saturday. Is there any way to find out when/where the M-7 trainset will be running. (Sorry if this was on another thread).
I read a post one day this week that a set of M7s departed from Long Beach at 8:38 am though I'm not sure if this is still the case.
I saw one on the Hempstead Branch on Thursday at about 1 pm.
Story: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/33436p-31666c.html
Your former mayor, Mr. Giuliani, will be in on November 14th for some function, probably related to that leadership book of his, taking place at an Indigo store with Heather Riesman.
-Robert King
Guliani motion picture filmed in Toronto
I'll notify the border patrol, you take care of the Mounites for me, will ya? :)
Sure. Let me know if you guys send anymore politicians up, and I'll make the arrangements with the Mounties! Failing that, I have a few red shirts of my own from work!
-Robert King
Okay, I guess this can apply to both boards, but I decided on Subtalk, since it gets more usage.
Basically, my question is, why does rail transportation seem to be more appealing than bus transportation?
Now I'm not talking about from a bus/railfan POV, I'm talking about the average person POV.
If you are a regular commuter or traveler, and don't have much of an interest in either trains or buses, what method would you choose and why?
For example, if you were travelling from a New Jersey town that has both convenient rail and bus access to New York City, would you opt for the train or the bus?
-OR-
If you were going from New York City to Albany or Buffalo, and given a choice of Amtrak or Trailways, which would you choose (and suppose that driving or flying were not options for some reason)
I'll go on - back in the era of dismantling streetcar and railroad lines and replacing them with buses (mid-century), what was the general public attitude? Did they welcome it, disagree with it, or remained neutral?
Now I know many other factors played a role in dwindling ridership of transit systems, such as urban flight and the construction of highways, but suppose that none of that happened?
Suppose that most people remained in the cities and suburban sprawl hardly occered, would the bus systems that replaced streetcars and railroad lines be much more heavily used than they currently are?
I would be interested in any answers, particularly from those who lived through that time period and experienced it first hand.
Thanks.
I would always prefer a rail car over a bus. The railcar , due to the placement of the rails and ballast, is almost always smooth.
A bus has to fight the roughness of the roads, and it's air suspension can't compete with the smoothness of a railcar. The best LRV ride I ever rode was out in Pittsburgh on a charter. We covered the route from Gateway center to South Hills village, and was like riding on silk.
Chuck Greene
Trains operate on a dedicated ROW. A bus usually has to fight its way through automobile traffic.
Trains can run at speeds which are illegal for cars and buses on the roads.
I think it depends on a lot of different factors.
Reasons for choosing buses over trains:
1. Some people just cannot afford the fares charged for the trains whereas the buses offer a cheaper alternative.
2. Buses tend to be more convenient for some passengers due to the fact they tend to run on main and in a lot of cases back streets. This helps passengers who do not have access to cars in order to drive to the railroad stations. There are a lot of locations where the railroad stations are in the middle of nowhere.
3. In a lot of cases, buses tend to provide more frequent and direct service to Manhattan than their railroad counterparts - especially in areas served by the Montclair, Boonton, Pascack Valley and Main Line Branches.
4. Eventhough there has been a little improvement for people with disabilities on the trains, it is far from enough. There are a lot of NJTransit stations that are not handicapped accessable and at least 70% of the time, the escalators at Penn Station (NY) do not operate. There are lot of people who suffer from all types of arthritis, knee and other joint diseases that makes it unbearable if not impossible to climb all of those steps. Whereas with the buses, one quick lift for those in a wheelchair or three steps and that is it.
5. This may sound a little sexist but I've based this statement from people that I personally deal with. For whatever reason, some women tend to use the buses over trains.
Reasons for choosing trains over buses:
1. Some people value their time more than money. Trains just make way fewer stops than the buses, plus buses have to stop at every stop sign and a lot of traffic lights. The traffic that you have to wait in just trying to cross one of those Hudson river crossings is totally unacceptable to many. Other than an occasional train delay or a signal failure, the trains are just much quicker than the buses.
2. Again, this may sound a little sexist but I've based this statement from people that I personally deal with. For whatever reason, some men tend to use the trains over buses.
Please feel free to comment.
Thank you.
This may sound a little sexist but I've based this statement from people that I personally deal with. For whatever reason, some women tend to use the buses over trains.
Women who prefer buses probably do so because they feel safer with the driver nearby.
This past summer, I took a one-day trip to Fresno from Los Angeles. A round trip on United would have cost over $300, and I don't drive, so Amtrak was the carrier of choice. The part from Los Angeles to Bakersfield is served by a bus; from Bakersfield north it's train. The bus was tolerable, about as comfortable as a bus can get. The train, in contrast, was a pleasure. New equipment, comfortable, smooth, one can stroll around, and beverage and snacks are available. I wish the train went the whole distance, but there's something about mountains in the way.
Bus versus rail in local transit? Here in Los Angeles, buses are used by those who have no other choice (some commuter runs excepted). Light rail, subway, and commuter rail are used by those, among others, who have a choice and prefer the comfort of rail transit.
(Why does rail transportation seem to be more appealing than bus transportation?)
Three reasons: the right of way, the stations, and the diesel engine. Rail transit doesn't get stuck in traffic, while buses get obstructed by automobiles and stop at every light. Rail stations wait in a "place," often one out of weather, while bus riders stand by the side of the road like losers as the cars go by. Until the RTS bus, I couldn't even ride bus without feeling sick from the diesel fumes.
That's why "Bus Rapid Transit" is such a good idea. You give buses a separate right of way, or at least privleged access to a shared right of way, in the most congested areas of town for a fast trip. You provide better places to wait, with information on when the next bus will arrive. The new clean engines are great; fuel cells and hybrids will be even better. I rode an inter-city bus for the first time in years last February, and let me tell you, it was a hell of a lot nicer than an airplane.
In New York City, the buses stink because they are caught in the traffic. It takes forever to get anywhere. But in a mid-sized city just starting a transit system, I'd recommend Bus Rapid Transit based on two grade-separated rights of way that cross downtown. Especially after finding out what rail signal systems cost.
Personally, I believe that it all depends. For example, I rarely take a local bus in Manhattan, but I use express buses to Queens from the city.
If I were going to/from New Jersey, I would no doubt use the rails simply because I have been stuck in traffic heading for the Lincoln Tunnel on a NJT bus. One time for up to 40 minutes. Not pleasant.
However, if I were going upstate, I would no doubt use the bus. When I went to Montréal last month, I used Greyhound because it was faster than Amtrak and there were more departures to choose from.
I have to admit, it was a very nice ride up to Montréal even though it rained 90% of the journey (I like rain by the way). I would do the 8 hours again in a heartbeat.
First of all, good question...
Personally, I'd consider rails because, unlike buses, they don't generally get stuck in traffic.....unless it's light rail going down, say, Howard Street in Baltimore. Plus, at least in cities where rail transit is newer, they are perceived as being cleaner.
Trains are wider too. 4 across on an intercity train is much more comfortable than 4 across on an intercity bus.
Yesterday around 6pm[would of posted yesterday but I didn't], I was going on a little trip so I started by taking the Q[any Q] and waited until a Q local came at Newkirk Av and I didn't feel like taking/waiting for the express so I got on it. So next thing I know, we are held at Newkirk for 10 minutes for what I don't know. So we finally move and we go pretty quickly. At Av U, I saw a friend of mine so I decide to go back and meet with him so I scrap my ride. BAD MISTAKE!!!
So, I'm waiting freezing my ass off at Neck Rd(it was too late to get off at Av U since the doors closed) and there's a big crowd at both of these stations. So 10 minutes pass until I see a train BUT a R68A passes us and skips Av U via local track and went pretty fast. So another 10 minutes and 2 MB 's later, it finally comes. Waiting 20 minutes in the damn rush hour, that's ridiculous. 3 or 4 BB bound local trains go by but only ONE COMES BACK! I meet my friend and he tells me he waited 45 MINUTES, that's right 45 and tells me at least 7 BB locals went by but it seems like either none returned or it passed them via local. What happened on the Brighton yesterday????
My sources tell me that near the end of the evening rush last night, there was a minor collision between an NJT train and a LIRR train. The two were passing through JO interlocking and they bumped collision posts at less than 10 MPH. Reports were that they passed a point where the normal clearance is about 3" and the LIRR car was listing to one side. The incident was re-enacted about 1 AM - suprisingly with the same result. NJT crew was unhurt but LIRR engineer and conductor both claimed injury.
Will this require a signaling change to ensure that trains are clear of each other?
JO Interlocking is being rebuilt with most switches being relocated to increase clearances within the interlocking area.
What is a collision post?
The collision posts are just what they sound like. They are structural members placed at critical points in the car structure to prevent damage in minor collisions and to preserve life in major hits. From what i'm told, there was no damage due to the bump.
Where is JO interlocking. I am guessing it is somewhere between Penn and Sunnyside but exactly where is it?
JO interlocking are the switches that route Penn Station tracks 5 through 17 into Line 1 & Line 2 (river tunnels) to Sunnyside. I'm sending you a GIF of the Penn Station layout via E-mail
A public thanks for the GIF! You are a true asset to Transit.
Yeah, that did supposidly happen, but they did not know what train was involved. I worked train 3868 going into NY (comet V's) and they (transit officials) thought that train is what was hit (leaving Sunnyside going to Trenton), but they did not inspect the train until it got to Trenton. Fortunately that was not the equipment involved.
I don't think this one is as good as the R143 Photo I posted here last night. And thank you all for the comments. So here is number 2. If anyone has any suggestions or want to see something in particular let me know I will see if I have it.
By the way you can go to IMAGESTATION.COM and take a look at my photos there too 'R40_Railfan' is my member name.
I tried the PREVIEW feature (As usual) and it works, so no complaints :p
The first thing I did looking at the photo was to put my hand up. The sun was blinding.
I like it! I love how you framed the sun in the canopy support! See, you can take a photo into the sun sometimes. Shots like these are more interesting than the standard "3/4 head-end" shots.
This is a J train between which two station stops?
The 'J' train is pulling into Crescent St Station heading Jamaica-bound. I live near the station so I have photos from every angle. I just like the way the sun reflects off the cars.
You're the man. I too love getting shots like you took. Dawn and dusk are my favorite times to take photos. Like you said, the sun reflection can make for great shots. Trying experimenting with getting a nice sky shot in the background, especially when the sky has vivid red and orange colors when the sun is setting/rising, it's really cool. I don't have a subway shot on the web, but something like this is what I'm talking about.
Advice taken. I think I do have a photo of one that you are asking I will see if I can post it (If I can find it)
R-38?
R-42. The R-38 doesn't have a wide beltline, its ripples are rounder, and it doesn't have a bulkhead rollsign.
Plus the R-38s are currently found only on the A and C lines.
The sun in this shot first of all is very distracting, second it prevents a krisp shot of the train. However, as I said before I did like the night shot.
Maybe if you change the camera angle to remove the sun from the photo.
>>The sun in this shot first of all is very distracting, second it prevents a krisp shot of the train. However, as I said before I did like the night shot.
The sun glare in the shot is what makes it interesting, not annoying. If he took some peoples advice here, he would have a typical non intersting railfan 3/4 roster shot. Being creative is sometimes needed to break from photographic bordeom.
>>Maybe if you change the camera angle to remove the sun from the photo.<<
If I was there using my camera, I would put on a wide angle 35mm or 28mm lens to expand the image and over expose by one stop to compensate for the sun glare. Some people on this board who post their photos need to experiment and learn to compose their images better rather than brag it.
As for Tony, he seems to show some promise for being a good photographer of trains by experimenting and asking for opinions. You don't know what your potential is unless you experiment. And with a digital camera, you have an advantage since film and processing can be expensive.
As for Tony's image at Atantic Ave, once again, he experimented and came up with a nice photo. Had he been ther about 5 or 10 minutes earlier, he would have had a great shot because twilight is critical when doing night photography. I've seen some railfan's night shots that were really very uninteresting by my standards. They will set up a tripod and shoot after twilight and depend on the golden glow of sodium vapor lighting to come up with a classic. The image will fall short of being a classic because there was no twlight to define building, mountains, structures etc. The worst night photography I've seen is a shot of a diesel, etc. with the railfans car headlights shining on the engine to make it appear artsy fartsy !!
Word to all photographers out there......Take a gamble, experiment, be creative. Enjoy the photographic aspect of this hobby.
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree completely. I said right away in my post that the sun made it very interesting. Actually, the sun on one side and half the train cut off on one side made for a very interesting and artsy photo.
It sounds like some thought the sun was an "accident" in the photo. The sun in the photo seems to me, right from the start as definitely done on purpose. If not, it would be the standard 3/4 view of an R42 in a station.
Some interesting input, thanks for sharing.
>>Some interesting input, thanks for sharing.<<
You always learn something new on SubTalk.
Bill "Newkirk"
Right you are, and sometimes it's amazing what it is that you learned!
I, personally, LOVE IT!
Peace,
ANDEE
Ilike that picture. A very nice impression of the train. This type of picture is good for contemplating. Also a great cover shot for a magazine...
I like that picture. A very nice impression of the train. This type of picture is good for contemplating. Also a great cover shot for a magazine...
I think it's an excellent picture. Bravo.
Back in the 70's my father bought a shoebox full of old train photos at a yard sale. Most of the photos were labeled, but a few were not. Many of them are NYC subway photos. There were only about 30 photos all together in the shoebox, and about 10 unlabeled, with about 6 I am having trouble with. Some I have been able to figure out myself, but some are harder because many of them show abandoned structures, and city-scenes that don't exist anymore. With the passage of time, I have no idea where the photos came from or who took them. And for a few I need you guy's help in identifying some of them. They may be easy for some of you.
So, for now, here's one of them. There seems to be some kind of abandoned turnout or switch area right at the end of the station, and some other elevated in the backround. It looks like it may be Manhattan.
Looks like the 34th Street Shuttle. In the distance is the 2nd Avenue El. It ran from the river to a connection with the 3rd Avenue El.
-Mark
There was an el on 34th Street? Did trains run from the 3rd Ave el directly onto 34th Street, or did the passengers have to switch trains?
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/irt-1920.gif
It was a shuttle that ran from the 3rd Ave El at 34 Street to the East River just after 1 Ave. Todays NYU Medical center. It wasn't a thru service from downtown. Customers had to transfer from the 3rd or 2nd Avenue Els at 34 St to get the ferry that took people to the LIRR terminal at Long Island City. Needless to say when the LIRR built their tunnels under the East River, the shuttle was doomed.
>>> Looks like the 34th Street Shuttle. <<<
I cannot dispute your identification since I never saw the 2nd Ave. El, or even pictures of the 34th St. shuttle, but from looking at the picture it must have been taken from the 3rd Avenue end based on the shadows. The shuttle was at the same level as the 3rd Avenue El, so where was the photo taken from? The crossover of the 3rd Avenue tracks is at the North side of 34th Street. Also, the sidewalks seem much too wide for 34th Street (unless the street was widened after the shuttle was torn down), in the mid 40s there were no buildings on 34th Street with the typical Brownstone stairway to the entrance as appears to be in the middleground, and I cannot identify the tall building at the back of the picture. The station seems too long for a three block shuttle. How many cars would be on such a train?
OTOH, the tracks on the far side of the station seem to be curving away from the station which matches the track diagrams for the connection between the 34th Street shuttle and the 3rd Avenue El.
Tom
It also appears that there is no third rail visable, so the picture was taken prior to 1903.
Interesting. You are right. The physical photo doesn'r appear to be that old, so it must be a reprint.
I gave this photo a closer look, and there does seem to be a third rail. On the outer side of the right running rail, you can see another rail alongside it, and it is uncovered, as are the third rails in many other old Manhattan el photos I've seen. I’ll guess that this photo is from the 20’s or even the early 30’s.
Check out the historic views, pages of old Interborough el photos in the following pages at this site. The uncovered third rail is visible in a number of these:
2nd ave. el - http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irt-els/2nd-ave-el.html
3rd ave. el - http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irt-els/3rd-ave-el.html
6th ave. el. - http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irt-els/6th-ave-el.html
9 th ave. el - http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/irt-els/9th-ave-el.html
This is what I got when I tried to see the pictures.
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please try the following:
If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
Open the 2nd%20ave.%20el%20-%20http: home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.
HTTP 400 - Bad Request
Internet Explorer
HTTP 400 - Bad Request
Internet Explorer
I saw it the first time with no trouble at all....
Oh that's right... I *am* using Netscape Navigator! : )
Elias
What's really interesting is that it appears that no motor vehicles are visable in the shot, which has to date it very early.
It's a shame the photographer didn't wait for a train before taking the shot. That would almost cinch the dating, as the shot would show what was operating on the line at the time the shot was taken.
These 2 pictures are fascinating. Why not put them all up for display?
There are more where that came from from that box. I wanted to get the "mystery" photos out of the way first, and them maybe put them up on a site, with all the ones that were labeled included. I didn't want to overwhelm, by putting all the mystery ones up on SubTalk at the same time. There are a few more - which I still have to scan.
There are also a bunch from the 3rd Ave el in Manhattan and the Bronx, and when they were dismanteling the el Bronx Portion in the 60's, especially near Gun Hill Road, so stay tuned.
There are also some photos of what look to be the dismanteling of one side of Queensboro Plaza. All the back says is "Queensboro Plaza", but it looks like construction or demolition is occurring. One has a date of 1962.
Great mystery photos! Thanks so much for putting them up on Subtalk.
And for volunteering to put up some or more of the rest, as you are able and as time permits.
- Ed
Great mystery photos! Thanks so much for putting them up on Subtalk.
And for volunteering to put up some or all of the rest, as you are able and as time permits.
- Ed
Great mystery photos! Thanks so much for putting them up on Subtalk.
Well, thanks to everyone for the comments and help in identifying some of them. There will be some more, as I get a chance to work on them. I enjoy sharing them, as they do no good sitting in a box. I'm glad my father picked them up when he saw them. I was a kid in the 70's and had no real interest in trains yet, and my father didn't particularly like trains or the subway, so I was surprised he even bought them. I assume the photographer is not alive anymore, and possibly the yard sale might have been his "kids" selling off some stuff. Well luckily they didn't just throw them out. Who knows - my father doesn't even remember where he got them anymore, it's probably 25 years ago! Well, glad people are enjoying them.
Fox 5 had a report Thursday night that London is considering a plan to put an $8 toll on certain thoroughfares to curb congestion. Hoorah and pip pip. I love it.
Working as I do at 7th and 34th, I say toll 'em back to the stone age. Cut the cars, the pollution and the honking in half. Great idea!
Of course it only works if public transit could be expanded to accommodate the displaced motorists. In NYC, despite all the talk, building or adding to existing subway lines is a dream at best.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I saw it too. An excellent idea, long overdue in congested urban centers.
When streets are outlawed, only outlaws will drive on streets.
Um, yes, well ....
First, the streets are not being outlawed, they are merely being charged.
Second, yes, murder is illegal, and yes, murderers do commit murders, but I personally would prefer to keep it that way than legalise it.
Lets have fewer bad analogies please, including my own!
Of course it only works if public transit could be expanded to accommodate the displaced motorists.
Without free streets, people will realize which is the better deal. Transit w/o subsidies is a far better deal than roads without subsidies and since there would be a buck to be made in building new unsubsidized transit lines, it would be done.
I just hope this means a couple of new tube lines!
Ended up in the City today with Jr. doing some Chanukah shopping... managed to ride a bit of the IRT while we were at it. Part of our wanderings took us down to South Ferry (station looks nice, obviously not a total rehab though) and then over to Bowling Green for the trip back up on the Lex. Lo and behold, when we arrived on the uptown platform, what should be discharging on the opposite side but a string of redbirds! Needless to say, we passed on the 4 train (R62s 1411-1415 with the Yankee logos still applied bringing up the rear) that arrived next and waited for the birdies. In order, they were: 9151, 9150, 8944, 8945, 8914, 8915, 8827, 8826, 8883, 8882. We hogged the window all the way to 125th street before switching to the downtown side for a new-tech train back to 103rd. These cars have obviously had some serious work done underneath as they did not slam around like the last birds I rode (from Cortland Street to South Ferry on 09/08/2001). But the bondo was plainly visible on the sides.
Boarding the Lex later at 86th, the computers were down and a flash of the Metrocard at the slam gate was all that was required for admittance. We had bought Fun Passes anyway... three subway rides (one involving three lines - 4, Times Square shuttle, 1) and one bus ride... got our money's worth.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on the Lex too today. I was waiting at 14th street around 12:30pm and also rode a Redbird 5 train, and got a good view out of the railfan window. I took it to 86th. The ML Redbirds still ride great. The Corona ones should have been scrapped before them. Also the ML's have a nice smell.
I got back on the subway at 86th st around 1:45pm, I didn't notice any problems. But there was an announcement that downtown 6 trains were running on the express track. However, just before I headed downstairs for the express I did see a 6 come into the station on the usual (upper) level.
Also noticed alot of smoke coming from the 60th street tube while waiting for a downtown BMT train at60th&Lex, after I got off the 4 I took from 86th.
"also rode a Redbird 5 train, and got a good view out of the railfan
window"
.......well that will be gone very soon ?? maybe by this summer ??
what a shame !
I was waiting at 14th street around 12:30pm and also rode a Redbird 5 train...
Sounds like we were on the same one! Either that or they were running two of them... I didn't happen to see you, but then again I was glued to the window and Jr. was sitting down next to me, occasionally peering out... were you lurking back, looking over my shoulder from a distance, or were we on different trains?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are lots of Redbirds on the 5. Why do you think they're so uncommon? It's Redbirds on the 2 and 6 that are a big deal, since they've both been officially free of Redbirds for months.
David, I haven't been in the City in about a year now... got the impression from what I read here that they were virtually extinct and will be totally gone by next month (hence the NYDERA "farewell" fantrip. Is that an incorrect assessment of the situation?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very incorrect, thankfully. The 7 is still mostly Redbirds, and the 4 and 5 still have a good number. They will still be running next month, definitely on the 7, probably on the 4 and 5 (in reduced numbers).
They are extinct on the West Side, though.
I saw several Redbird sets on the 4 and 5 last month in addition to the 7. As it stands, R-33 9183 will go down as the last Redbird I ever rode on unless by some miracle they'll still be around next fall.
>>>"(hence the NYDERA "farewell" fantrip. Is that an incorrect assessment of the situation?"<<<
"farewell" isn't that an oxymoron as "limited edition"?
Well with the NYDERA, they have "farewell" trips for whatever,
don't they?
What year was their "farewell" to MN 1100s, still in service?
;-) Sparky
If I'm not mistaken there may be only one train of "Redbirds" on the 5 at this point as certain times. I have this funny feeling that there won't be anymore "Redbirds" on the 5 soon so ride them while you can.
#3 West End Jeff
I think I would've noticed, since I was standing at the front window myself. I didn't see any kids around either. I guess we were on different trains.
Must have been - if we were sharing a window we would have known it! And if Jr. had wanted to share the window there wouldn't have been room for either of us... he's 6' 2" in his bare feet and broad enough in the shoulders to occupy the entire window without even trying :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed on my first trip a P/O was at the open gate at 86 St/Lex. The Express had some kind of problem. At Grand Central I made a connection with the S/B #5 Express but beat it to 14 Street. I pulled out of 14 Street as it came into 14 Street.
Just wondering did you take a ride around the City Hall loop. I had a few that came on in the 7th car just to ride around.
Just wondering did you take a ride around the City Hall loop. I had a few that came on in the 7th car just to ride around.
No, we were uptown-bound on the Lex and only came back as far south as Grand Central (headed for NYP) on the return. Might have hung around longer and done some more railfanning (would have liked to taken the time to check out Canal Street) but by day's end we had several packages and my arthritis was making itself known so we decided to grab a train and head home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No surprise there -- the 4, 5, and 7 are still running Redbirds.
But I'm confused about your ride on 9/8/01: the 1/9 has been running R-62A's and only R-62A's since the mid-80's. Maybe you also rode the 7? The 7's Redbirds are choppy. The 5's generally are not -- their ride, IMO, is no less smooth than the ride on an R-142A, though it's a bit noisier (until the brakes are applied).
But I'm confused about your ride on 9/8/01: the 1/9 has been running R-62A's and only R-62A's since the mid-80's.
We rode several lines that day (all within Manhattan and not the 7)... might have been on the Lex. What stuck in my mind was that it was not a long ride, hence my thinking it was the last one (Cortlandt to SF to the SI ferry - we had parked over there and taken the ferry across that day), but we had taken several short rides that day so it could well have been one of the other ones.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could it have been a train of R-40's on the N (from Cortlandt to Whitehall)? They have a pretty rough ride.
But since the mid-80's, the West Side was simple: the 1/9 and 3 have had only R-62A's and the 2 has had only Redbirds and later R-142's.
Could it have been a train of R-40's on the N (from Cortlandt to Whitehall)? They have a pretty rough ride.
No, we rode from Whitehall to Times Square on the way in that morning... we were in the last car as we barely caught the train, don't remember the type. Rode several short hops on the Lex later in the day before working our way back up to 125th street on the A for supper, then back down to WTC via a change to an E and a Metrocard transfer to the 1 for the ride to South Ferry, Staten Island, and our car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did you hear door chimes on the BMT? That would narrow it down somewhat.
Why are the 7's "Corona" Redbirds so rough? Was it the design of the R36WF? Or bad treatment at Corona?
They were the first cars to go through GOH. My guess is that some of the improvements that were made on the other cars never got done on the R-36's. (That's also why the lights flash and the doors go puff.)
The WF R-36s still have their original load sensing valves; hence the high-pitched beep after the doors close.
No surprise there -- the 4, 5, and 7 are still running Redbirds.
I contradict your statement.
I went railfanning this past Saturday (11/9/02) on the #5 line. The stations on the Lex line in Manhattan and Atlantic Av. were icky, due to construction. We caught a R142A #5 train at 125th to Eastchester-Dyre Av.
Thinking we were lucky, I see another R142A #5 train going s/b at the Concourse. We elevate, and see a R142 #2 pass. A minute later, I saw another R142A #5 train. until E. 180 St., I continually saw a pattern of passing R142 #2's and R142A #5's and when we got to the segment between E. 180 St. and Dyre Av., 3 or 4 more R142 #5's passed by Manhattan-bound. We got off at Dyre Av. (This is pretty interesting. The dispatcher lets go of the train almost immediately after it arrives.) And I see a R142A set on the right-hand track of the station in the storage area just past the station.
We waited for the next train inbound, which was another R142A. Traveling back down to E.180 I saw 3 more R142A's pass. We got off at 125th St. to railfan the #6 line. I saw no redbirds above ground.
Nearing the end of our railfanning day, I saw a total of three #5 Redbirds, including one at 42nd St. Grand Central, and about 12 or however many that passed between the time it takes from 125th to Dyre and back, were R142A's.
The time was in the middle to late afternoon.
Is the #5 line planned to be all R142A's in the future? If not, can someone explain to me why I saw so mnay R142A's on the #5 that day?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Were they running that GO around 125th Street with split service? If they were, R142As shouldn't have been up on the el anyway.
FYI: The R142As are 7211 and higher. 7000-7210 are still R142s.
Those were R-142's, not R-142A's.
I don't see a contradiction. Right now, the 4, 5, and 7 are running Redbirds. No line is running only Redbirds, because most of the R-142's and R-142A's have come in. The only line with a majority Redbird fleet at this point is the 7.
Once all the new cars arrive, the 5 will be running only R-142's. The only line with a split fleet will be the 4, with some R-142A's and some R-62's or R-142's (I don't know if a decision has been made yet -- whichever doesn't end up on the 4 will end up on the 3). The 1 and 7 will have R-62A's, the 2 and 5 will have R-142's, and the 6 will have R-142A's. The R-26, R-28, and R-29 fleets have already been fully retired and the R-33 and R-36 fleets will be retired in the end.
Of course, none of this is set in stone (although some of it is sunk in the Atlantic), but that's the plan for now.
Amother Weeks barge left for the Atlantic with fifty Redbird Carboidskies. We're doing #2 R142s shifted over to us at #5 right now (big swap) but when the crew gets Redbirds, everything that can be 'put right' is to make those trainsets go. #2 line just tossed out a big lot of brake adjustment tools...no word on our end. CI Peter (Inspector #5 line...from Redbirds to R142s...nothing inbetween.)
Was #9117-9116 one you worked on recently? If so, BRAVO, you did good. A beautiful machine.
wayne
if redbirds were still on the #2, you would have a real railfan treat, the 8:59 Utica, which was a #5 ran on upper WPR at the end of the AM rush/beginning of midday opposite of peak direction, now it only goes to E 180 Street thanks to the elimination of the interlines.
You sure? The schedule for the 5 on the MTA website I think shows it going to 238th.
The No.5 line is only running about at max 12 Redbird sets. Last weekend I had mostly Redbirds. I don't mind taken a Redbird down the road after a week of R142A's and R142's.
Man what a ripoff. When the Airtrain opens, the only way to get from Howard Beach A train station to JFK Airport will be to pay $5 for Airtrain (buses will be discontinued from Howard Beach).
Once it happens, I won't be visiting JFK Airport anymore. $5 for a freakin 5 minute ride, gimme a break!!!!
A train to Lefferts instead of Howard Beach. Q-10 to JFK. Much cheaper.
If you have ever used the bus $5.00 is a bargain :)
Simon
Swindon UK
For free, you get what you pay for.
And with $1.50 to Manhattan it is a bargain, but I would not object to paying more if the journey was a little more comfortable. I shall ride it again tomorrow though.
Simon
Swindon UK
???
You really thought the Port Authority was going to make it cheaper for anyone? They need the money to pay for improvements to New Jersey facilities.
$5 for a freakin 5 minute ride, gimme a break!!!!
For the overwhelming majority of people who go to JFK only when they have to, $5 for AirTrain would be far, far better than the free bus, which is slow, crowded, unreliable, and just generally frustrating to use.
I know how to settle this ... for $20 extra, you get a dragon clip AND a cab blessing. NOW how much would you be willing to pay? :)
To John ... you could ALWAYS take a taxi. Compare, discuss, moo.
People will still take taxis to the Airport. For a family of 4 from lets say Manhattan, via the A train that would be 4x$1.50=$6. Then 4x$5=$20. $26 with the inconvenience of having to carry your luggage onto the subway. With LIRR you add about $16.
People will prefer taxis unless mass transit offers a big discount, something Airtrain will not do. People take the A train to JFK because it's cheap. Once that option is taken away, they will go to taxis. A train to Leffers onto a Q10 (which is way worse than any PA shuttle bus) is not gonna work.
Thanks PA, now we'll have even more cabs on the roads.
Whilst $5 for the Airtrain does seem expensive, the total cost of $6.50 from JFK to any subway station in New York City seems pretty reasonable. I don't think that cost is going to put off too many air travellers, or drive them to use taxis.
What will put off many air travellers will be the use of subway for most of the journey. I'm a subway enthusiast, but after a 10 hour filght, with 5 hours jetlag, a suitcase in one hand, a laptop in the second and a bag of tax free in the third (:-)), I'd hestitate to use the subway.
That is why airports need dedicated rail services, not shuttle links to subways or commuter railways.
A lot of people forget that the PA could easily improve the shuttle bus service. But it's in the PA's interest not to do that, so the AirTrain to Howard Beach can be touted as a major improvement. And it's also in the PA's interest to charge an outrageous fare, to encourage people to drive and park at the airport rather than taking the subway.
I wonder how many people will realize that they can get from the airport to Howard Beach for less than $5 by cab -- an especially good value (in comparison) when traveling with others. I also wonder how long it will take before cabbies start lining up for fares outside the Howard Beach station. Or, more likely, Rockaway Boulevard, which has twice the service.
$5 is perhaps a reasonable fare to Jamaica, but not to Howard Beach.
Aren't they similar distances? Didn't I see the Howard Beach segment quoted as actually being longer?
You did, but take a look at the map -- the numbers are misleading. The cited length of the Howard Beach branch includes the terminal circulator, which isn't really part of the Howard Beach branch at all.
"I also wonder how long it will take before cabbies start lining up for fares outside the Howard Beach station."
It's not always a sure thing to get a cab (and I mean livery, not yellow) at Jamaica station. I very much doubt any cabs will show up at Howard Beach. Also it is several miles to actually get to a terminal. It's probably $4 on the meter.
Man what a ripoff. When the Airtrain opens, the only way to get from Howard Beach A train station to JFK Airport will be to pay $5 for Airtrain (buses will be discontinued from Howard Beach).
The best $5 you'll ever spend. I would rather gargle with Liquid Drano than take one of those evil, repulsive, disgusting shuttle buses.
Hell ... take Amtrak up to Smallbany and take one of our LOVELY busses over to the Smallbany county INTERNATIONAL AIRPOOT ... Air Canada would *LOVE* for a passenger to show up, having admired the bronze BUST of Ho Bruno in the lobby prior to getting frisked. I'd say even that BUS would be entertainment up HERE. :)
Price of cab, fun of shuttle bus ... I'd pay $10 if it worked.
Gee, I remembered when JFK had NO shuttle buses.
How long has the Q10 been going to JFK?
"How long has the Q10 been going to JFK?"
I first took the Q10 in 1969, and I believe it had been around for a long time then. At that time (I don't know about now) at most every other Q10 went to JFK, though. So it was at least 15 mins. between buses.
What I meant was that if you were coming American and had to interline at National (I'm Mary, Fly me...), there is no shuttle bus on the property. Taxi was the only way to get from one building to another.
How long has the Q10 been going to JFK?
Since it was Anderson Field
I've taken the shuttle buses, I don't mind them. At LEAST the option should be kept for people who don't want to spend $5.
$5 is alot of money for a short train ride. I'd rather spend it on a CD, food, or a set of blank tapes. Then again, you don't see me on those expensive museum trips either. I guess I'm just cheap. :-0
I've taken the shuttle buses, I don't mind them.
Have you done any of the following:
- arrived at JFK at 11pm on a hot, humid night last August, having just gotten off a 5+ hour flight from PHX?
- waited over a half-hour in the heat and humidity for the next shuttle bus?
- had to squeeze onto the grossly overcrowded, un-airconditioned bus when it finally arrives, and being "serenaded" in the process by the unionized driver bellowing at people to stay behind the white line?
- been nearly asphyxiated by the stench of diesel fuel once aboard the grossly overcrowded, un-airconditioned bus?
- had the unionized driver stop the grossly overcrowded, un-airconditioned bus on one of the roadways for several minutes as he talked with the unionized driver of another bus?
Until these things have happened to you, it would not be fair for you to express your opinion of the shuttle buses.
Why do you have to make a point of the driver being unionized?
Have you done any of the following:
-Being forced to work 12 hour days 6 days a week to make a few dollars to put food on the table?
-Missed a day of work because you were ill and were then fired, forcing your family to subsist on stale bread crumbs?
-Lost a limb because of poorly protected machinery and sent home with not so much as a get well soon card?
-Got fired and blacklisted for expressing to your fellow employees the dire situation of your work conditions?
-Got killed in a fire because your employeer chose to lock all the exits to prevent employees from leaving?
Until these things have happened to you, it would not be fair for you to express your opinion of unionized employees.
Unions are obsolete, as can be seen by the fact that they're losing membership everywhere except in the public sector and in the taxpayer-supported health care industry. Workers are treated well when there is a thriving economy. Trouble is, the more unionization, the less likely the economy is to thrive.
"Workers are treated well when there is a thriving economy"
You need to review some history. Try the late 1800's and the early 1920's. Your great grandparents might not agree with you.
Workers are treated well when there is a thriving economy
You need to review some history. Try the late 1800's and the early 1920's. Your great grandparents might not agree with you.
That's because the urban/industrial labor force was expanding rapidly at both times, with people leaving the farms and immigrants. Labor force growth today is much less rapid.
"That's because the urban/industrial labor force was expanding rapidly at both times, with people leaving the farms and immigrants. Labor force growth today is much less rapid."
That's one factor. Another is that with no effective government controls of any kind over information or labor practices, people could be exploited like chattel.
That problem has eased somewhat, but it hasn't gone away.
Aha, I see you've fallen for the trap. The bus service currently in place is bad -- and of course it's bad, since its operator wants to promote an overpriced replacement as better. How would you feel if the PA ran a good bus service and replaced it with the exact same service, running on steel rather than on rubber, with a fare increase from $0 to $5?
People still use tapes?
Arti
Here we go again. I use tapes and damn proud of it. It sure beats carrying around those thin sounding UFO players.
Never had a problem with tapes. Why change what aint broke?
Also amusing is watching people continue to drop those weird looking round walkmans, because their shape is naturally inconvenient to hold.
I won't be visiting JFK Airport anymore. $5 for a freakin 5 minute ride, gimme a break!!!!
AirTrain will be free to people using the long term or employees parking lots.
More than half of AirTrain's projected users will be using their cars to get to the airport. Somebody has to pay to operate AirTrain, guess who has been selected not to get a free ride.
People using the parking lots are paying too, either as part of the price of the long term lot, or their employer's rent is paying to support the employee lots.
I guess this means the free shuttle buses to the airport will be discontinued. No point in operating free shuttle buses if they will only serve to draw customers away from AirTrain.
$5 is a rip off. There should be a maximum fee of $1 if they want to attract customers. In reality, it should be a free transfer.
Now more than ever I believe that the AirTrain will go down as one of the worst boondoggles in NYC political history.
Maybe for the first few weeks the ride will be free. After all the PA has to get people to discover it.
I have to agree with you. Airtrain may not do well, when you consider that most people will probably still prefer to use taxis.
The fare from Jamiaca should be $3, with groups of 3 or more getting a 30% discount. Howard Beach should be free.
Let the PA have an "airport" toll for all cars going into the airport. Mass transit use should be encouraged, by making car use costly and inconvenient, and making transit use easy and CHEAP.
As for the shuttle buses, they are good buses, I wish LI Bus could get a few. Those things ran good.
Mass transit use should be encouraged, by making car use costly and inconvenient, and making transit use easy and CHEAP.
No, nothing should be encouraged or discouraged. People should be forced to pay the costs of their journey, including pollution taxes. If transit comes out cheaper, than great. If transit can't cover its fares with a market price and it's on a level playing field with competing modes, it is an inefficient mode and therefore shouldn't exist.
The truth is that as long as New York exists, transit will be the more efficient mode. If transit is inefficient, then so is the entire city, in which case IT shouldn't exist.
"People should be forced to pay the costs of their journey, including pollution taxes."
Currently, the price people pay to drive cars is far below that level.
"If transit comes out cheaper, than great."
We're a long way from being able to do that equitably, thanks to the auto industry.
Might be longer than 5 minutes. It will be stopping at all the parking lots along the way, right?
--Brian
"It will be stopping at all the parking lots along the way, right?"
Just one. See http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/projectframe.htm.
Stops are HB, Jamaica, long term parking (1 stop), Federal Circle, and 5 terminal stops.
I'm not aware of any official Port Authority announcements about service yet. They are still recovering from the accident and a final decision about service has yet to be made.
Do you always bitch and moan about things that haven't happened yet and haven't been decided yet?
Oh, I forgot, yes you do...
(I'm not aware of any official Port Authority announcements about service yet. They are still recovering from the accident and a final decision about service has yet to be made.)
That's right, do you have any evidence a decision has been made? A $5.00 fare is a declaration of war, and I'm preparing my keyboard to fire lots of salvos. Please don't say the British Are Coming until you can see the whites of their eyes.
"That's right, do you have any evidence a decision has been made? A $5.00 fare is a declaration of war, and I'm preparing my keyboard to fire lots of salvos. Please don't say the British Are Coming until you can see the whites of their eyes."
Instead of forming all your salvos on Subtalk, put them to paper in the form of letters and send them to the Port Authority and your elected officials. If you have time to rant on Subtalk then you have time to do something meaningful, too.
(Instead of forming all your salvos on Subtalk, put them to paper in the form of letters and send them to the Port Authority and your elected officials. If you have time to rant on Subtalk then you have time to do something meaningful, too.)
Take my word for it, every single public agency in the city, and every single newspaper in the region, has heard more than they want to from me. I've already alerted the editors of the Daily News, which publishes about one of letters to the editor every six months, to jump on this issue of the Airtrain fare is more than the PATH fare, since PATH has been financed by the NYC airports.
"Phase IV Ridership Estimates for the JFK Light Rail System", Prepared for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, Prepared by Parsons Brinckerhoff, July 1996, Executive Summary p. iv
Passengers boarding at Howard Beach and Jamaica pay a $5.00 fare. Employees pay $2.00 per ride.
This section was included in the FEIS.
What's the surprise?
Those are not binding figures, of course.
Those are not binding figures, of course.
Ah, there is a possibility that it will be $10 per ride. :-)
"Ah, there is a possibility that it will be $10 per ride. :-) "
Or $2 per ride. Mocking without facts is ignorant, of course, but that never bothered you. :0)
>>I won't be visiting JFK Airport anymore. $5 for a freakin 5 minute ride, gimme a break!!!!<<
Just curious John, when was the last time you visited JFK airport and where did your flight take you ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, cheaper than phone sex, at $1/minute :)
The PA Is In discussions with MTA For using Metrocard For Fare Payment At Jamaica & Howard Beach.
That would drain a $15 -> $80 metrocard quick but how would it work for a fun pass or Unlimted Local or Local/Express Metrocard User?
I really have to correct the "ignorance" of some of the statements here, please donot not be "too" offended.
First the JFK Airtrain system costs $3 Billion, the EWR Airtrain system which includes it's own NEC rail station cost $600 Million.
Yet the surcharge the PA is imposing on both systems will be equal?
The surcharge on a NJ Transit ticket from anywhere in NJ to EWR is $5 dollars on top of the actual rail fare, for example it costs $6 to go from Newark Penn Station to Newark airport. It costs less to from Newark Penn to Elizabeth NJ, which is the next station after Newark airport on the NEC when leaving Newark Penn.
For travel between Newark Airport and NY Penn the surchage is $7-7.50, on top of the normal NJ Transit fare which totals $11.95.
Why on Earth would the PA (which is controlled equally by the Governor's of NY and NJ) drop the $5 surcharge for the $3 Billion JFK Airtrain, but keep the $6-$7.50 surcharge for the $600 Million EWR Airtrain.
The Port Authority institutes the surcharges for both Airtrains because of the way the two projects were finaced, they were not financed with Federal Mass transit funds like Washington's Metro which serves National airport. They were financed with a combination of Airport improvement funds (the surcharge you pay for each airline ticket in the US, which funds new runways, terminals and in these cases rail links), NJ and the MTA did want to divert any of their precious transportion funding from Washington to airport rail lines which would mostly benefit travelers who live outside the region.
NJ wanted their precious share of funds for the HBLRT and Montclair connection, while the MTA wanted their funds to help with projects such as the East Side access project. These projects improve transit for locals, while one seat "affordable" Subway rides from NYC to JFK would mostly benefit tourists and business travelers.
So the PA who were pressured to build these two rail links , without Federal funds had to get "creative". They used a combination of Federal airport improvement funds and their own bonds to build these Airtrains, the catch is however that the Federal law which directs how the Airport improvement money should be spent stipulates that the funds should only be used to improve travel for Airport travelers and that their should be some sort of matching funds.
So to deter non-airport passengers from using the Airtrain lines they instituted the surcharge (which also goes towards paying off the bonds , matching funds requirement, and maintenance and operation). They also (in the case of the Newark airport rail station) donot allow foot access, I would imagine at Howard Beach the access to the Airtrain will not be accessible from the street. Only through the turnstiles of the Subway platforms.
Lots of folks in NJ tried to fight (or at least reduce) the surcharge for the Airtrain, this is when it was explained that the surcharge was neccasary under the terms of the Airport improvement trust fund.
The comparison someone made before about the PATH only being $1.50 while the JFK Airtrain is $5, that's true but I would also again point out that the cheaper EWR Airtrain costs $6-7.50.
The Port Authority is actually studying a PATH extension to Newark "Liberty" International, kind of a toned down version of the Plainfield service corridor plan of the 1970s. It would include a PATH extension of about 1-2 miles from the PATH yard South of Newark Penn Station to the Newark Airport Rail station or right into the terminals.
That too would include a surcharge, a $7.50 surcharge ontop of the $1.50 fare for a total of $9.00 to go from the WTC to EWR. Steep (much steeper than the $6.50 for the A train/ Airtrain connection at Howard Beach) but very reasonable considering the service.
The last figures I saw for the EWR Airtrain rail links was 3,000 average daily passengers taking either NJ Transit or Amtrak trains to Newark "Liberty" International airport, pretty good (IMO) considering the surcharge and the airtravel slump, that 3,000 daily rail ridership to EWR is expected to double by 2004.
(Why on Earth would the PA (which is controlled equally by the Governor's of NY and NJ) drop the $5 surcharge for the $3 Billion
JFK Airtrain, but keep the $6-$7.50 surcharge for the $600 Million EWR Airtrain.)
They should reduce both. JFK and LaGuardia both make big profits, then the passenger facility charge was imposed on top of this.
During the early 1990s recession, New Jersey insisted that PATH fares and Port Authority tolls not rise. So profits from New Jersey's AND New York's airports were diverted to the PATH. That's why the entire airport access system New York was promised when it got the PFC still isn't built.
Now NYC is once again facing service reductions, rare increases, and toll increases. Will the Port Authority impose equal sacrifice on New Jersey in THIS recession. Or will it simply grab profits from New York's Airports once again?
The fare on the Airtrain, and the EWR monorail, should be no higher than the PATH.
Why on Earth would the PA (which is controlled equally by the Governor's of NY and NJ) drop the $5 surcharge for the $3 Billion
JFK Airtrain, but keep the $6-$7.50 surcharge for the $600 Million EWR Airtrain.
They should reduce both. JFK and LaGuardia both make big profits, then the passenger facility charge was imposed on top of this.
Considering the state of air travel today, I would imagine that the airports are making far lower profits than they were 14 months ago. Fewer flights mean fewer landing fees, fewer passengers mean lower revenues from parking, concessions, etc.
I hate to complain every night, but the TA could do a better
job of managing overnight GO notices. For example, tonight I arrived
at W4 St around 0100. There was a notice NO E TRAINS THIS STATION
12:01 AM to 5:00 AM, Nov 5 to 8. Funny, I thought, this notice
was NOT posted there last night, when presumably the same GO was
in effect. Lo and behold, in defiance of the sign, an E train
arrived and eventually took me out to Queens, +/- a wait for
track gangs at Lex (which is probably the reason for the GO
in the first place).
This is certainly not the only time that late-night GOs have been
cancelled, but the notices were still posted, or conversely no
notices were posted for a GO that took place.
Another big problem with overnight GOs is date and time confusion.
When I see that the GO starts at 12:01 AM, OK, I assume that the
start date refers to that morning. Sometimes the start time is
10:00 PM or 11:00 PM, e.g., and I've seen that result in an off-by-one
error in reporting the starting date. It's also very unclear from
these posters when the exact starting time is. That's pretty
important, especially late-night where making the wrong decision
could cost 1/2 hour or more.
I know it is perhaps not "user-friendly" in that it introduces
too much "railroad jargon", but I really, really wish that the TA,
in posting GO notices in stations and on their web site, would
always include information such as "the last Queens-bound E
train to run over the normal route is the 11:43 PM departure from
WTC. The first Queens-bound E to run over the R line is the
12:05 out of Whitehall St."
The railroad jargon could be avoided by printing a different notice for each station, listing the last scheduled arrival at that station.
Or, better yet, electronic signs that provide up-to-the-minute information for riders. These can be controlled remotely and cannot be torn down like posters (hopefully!). The sign could show the next trains to arrive, cycling through each line serving that platform. Any changes, delays, or other service disruptions could be noted.
A few stations have locked display cases for service notices. There should be more of them.
I wonder why the R-142's don't have similar display cases. No, the windows between cars don't count.
Up-to-the-minute information would be nice, but I don't think it's possible just yet.
Or saying that the last E train from World Trade Center will be at 11:46 PM. That train will pass West 4th Street at 11:51, 34th Street at 11:57, and Lexington Avenue at 12:01 (all times approximate). Then you have to hope someone who is using, lets say, 42nd, has the intelligence to get to the station at about 11:56 to ensure they will catch the E.
The Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS is chartering the Philadelphia Brill Car No. 76 at the Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA for four hours on Sunday, November 17. 11AM to 4PM. Cost: $15. On & off continuously with photo runbys & still trolley shots in the 4747 foot long Laurel Line Crown Avenue Tunnel , on the bridge over Roaring Brook, everywhere & anywhere we chose to stop & get out! I believe the cost also includes admission to the museum. Maximum of 40 people allowed, so for reservations email laurellines@juno.com.
--Brian
Thanks a ton for the headsup. I hope I can get in on this trip.
Avid
Okay, same scenerio as the other Mystery Photo. I have no idea when it was taken, who took it, or where. It was in a shoebox of photos my father bought at a yard sale in the 70's. So where is it, and about when do you guys think it was taken. All it says is "1" train.
Those are R-12/14s in the process of being delivered to the city. In that case, the year would have to be 1948/49.
-Stef
While I am not sure of the location, that is defenitely a wood New Haven RR caboose. My bet is the Harlem River Branch, delivering those cars. Hope this helps out a bit.
Steve Loitsch
"My bet is the Harlem River Branch, delivering those cars."
Doesn't it look like catenary? That would suggest NHRR, but not Harlem River branch. Maybe the PRR tracks between Hellgate and New Rochelle?
"That would suggest NHRR, but not Harlem River branch. Maybe the PRR tracks between Hellgate and New Rochelle?"
Originally this was the Harlem River Branch of the New Haven, it was later a part of the NY Connecting RR which continued over Hell Gate Bridge into Penn Station. I have a map put out by the New Haven RR Historical Society of the Harlem River Yard and vicinity. It doesn't show any connection to the NY Subways but if I remember right there was/is a connection. I seem to remember a photo of Q cars being pulled by a New Haven EY-2 on the Harlem River Branch. With all the knowledge on this board we should be able to come up with the answer.
Steve Loitsch
>>>"It doesn't show any connection to the NY Subways but if I remember right there was/is a connection"<<<
I do not know, when the connection was last active or if ever used
by the Subway, but the trackage, etc. from East 180th Street ~
Dyre Avenue [ex NYW&B] is now removed. The structure now ends
on East 177th Street, where the Coliseum Bus Depot used to stand.
;-) Sparky
John: That connection was alive and well until about 15 years ago. As you know the New York Connecting Railroad ran as a four track line through the east Bronx with overhead wire. The NYW&B RR connected at about 174 Street. When Amtrak and Conrail split up the tracks about 1981 Amtrak got the two westernmost tracks which connected to the old NYW&B and severed the connection. The connection was certainly used for delivery of IRT R-types unti the mid sixties. I remember seeing the Bluebirds on the viaduct when they first arrived.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There were actually two connections between the New Haven and the Subway. The NYW&B connection at East 180th St is already mentioned here, but there was also a connection with the 3rd Avenue El near the Harlem River. IIRC, there was a yard near the Willis Ave area, as well as a terminus for service. There's a picture in Cunningham's IRT book that shows a train of El cars pulling newly delivered World's Fair Motors (Steinways) from the Harlem River area.
I'm wondering if any R-Type deliveries were done over the 3rd Ave El, prior to abandonment in 1955.
A related side note: I also found a picture of a spanking new R-17 (6700 series?) in Greller's NY Subways Book on Page 69. It was posed with MUDC and Gate Cars. The 3rd Rail in the picture is uncovered. Where is it? I'm calling the experts here.
-Stef
Hello Stef
That photo was taken with the R-17 at the 239th street yards of the IRT near the terminal (241st Street) of the IRT White Plains Riad Line. The IRT 3rd ave El MUDC's, Dyre Line gate cars (then in use) and ex-BMT Q type el cars and Manhattan work cars, were stored and shopped at 239h street. The 3rd ave El connection at Gun Hill Road allowed this. There was dual 3rd rail in both the yards and the White Plains Road Line from Gun Hill road north to the 239th street shops. Prior to 1950, the dual 3rd rail continued south on the White Plains Road line south to the interlocking below Jackson Ave Station as the 3rd Ave (and earlier 2nd Ave) El used the White Plains Rd. line in service north of the Westchester & Brook Avenue interlocking --via the joint Bergen Avenue El Connection and 3rd Ave-Westchester Avenue (150th Street) 2 block EL connection l block North of 149th Street (EL) station. When the Bergen Ave EL link was cut about late 1946-7, and the Westchester Ave EL Link abandoned about 1950-51, gradually over the next few years the elevated type Third rail below Gun Hill Road station on the White plains Road line was removed...as the "EL" trains has no further reason to venture south of Gun Hill Road on the White Plains Rd. elevated structure. Layup and repairs were done at 239th street shops from 1950 thru 1956 for the EL Cars unrtil they were removed from the Bronx service by January 1957. IRT EL MUDC and few Dyre gate cars scrapped, ex-BMT Q-type cars went to BMT Myrtle Avenue El in Brooklyn in mid 1958.
I remember seeing (and took photos of) El cars at various parts of 239th street yards in 1954-55-56.
Regards - Joe
Joseph Frank
NYCTMG-NYCMTS
Thanks, Joe! The R-17 picture had me stumped. You're very knowledgable in this subject.
Regards,
Stef
On the MNRR Hudson Line at (I think) Yonkers, I see new IRT subway cars that seem to be almost ready o be delivered to TA. How do they get delivered to the IRT?
R-142As (IRT) and R-143s (BMT/IND) are trucked from the Kawasaki Facility in Yonkers. IRT cars go to 239th St Yard, BMT/IND cars are unloaded at 207th St.
-Stef
There are track connection at the 239th St and 207th St Yards?
For TRUCKS, yes ... strangest damned thing I ever saw was 142's and 143's on RUBBER TIRES ... somebody posted a picture of them here a couple of months ago. Looked hysterical.
In 207th St, there's an unloading ramp at the far end of the yard nearest to the water. At 239th St, cars were brought in through the driveway leading to one of the storage tracks. One car at a time was trucked to the city over several nights, until a complete unit was assembled.
-Stef
I know I saw R142's at NYA's Fresh Pond Yard in Glendale (Although they could have been R143's, I don't rememeber). If they are unloaded at either 238th or 207th Yards, why would they need to bring them to Fresh Pond?
Maybe there is no way trains from Yonkers can be unloaded directly at 238 st or 207th st yards. They have to be brought to Linden Yard via Hell Gate Bridge then sent over the IRT Livonia Ave line or the BMT Canarsie line.
Deliveries are done by both truck and rail. I responded to Chris on the subject in another post.
-Stef
Kawasaki Cars from Yonkers are trucked. However, Bombardier R-142s are shipped by rail from upstate New York to the city. What you saw was right, the 142s come down the Husdon Line on a CP Rail train to Fresh Pond, in batches. The subway cars themselves are going for a ride, mounted on flats. Ironically enough, Bombardier cars pass the Kawasaki plant with 142As/143s on the way down!
-Stef
Yeah, but CPRail has the advantage of being able to read FRENCH, thus the cars arrive at a railyard. Je ne parle pas japonais. Mangez-moi. :)
Mon Japonais n'est pas trop bon moi-même.
L'ampèreheure, mais eux aiment des serpents.
It must have been something. My translating website wouldn't translate it.
Then I shall ( no extra charge) ...
"L'ampèreheure, mais eux aiment des serpents."
Ah, but they love snakes (The Japanese).
"Mangez-moi"?
Même une expression aiment qui peut sembler gentille en français. Bien qu'elle prenne l'"www.babelfish.altavista.com" pour comprendre ou écrire en français pour moi. :)
J'utilise le site Web en ligne de traduction sur AOL.
It's funny, with babelfish, I translated what I wanted to say from English to French. If I translate it back to English again, it comes out totally different than I originally started. At least you can get the idea though with it though.
Translation is more than a word-for-word substitute of a sentence. It involves the grammer and the correct choice of words.
I had a neighbor who had finished doing laundry. She had to bend the clothes. She meant to say fold. But she wasn't too fluent with English. And bend and fold mean the same thing.
Obtenez la vache. Meu. :)
How about somewhere on the Bay Ridge Branch ... the NH caboose would be right & there was three connections to the subway system (SBK, L & IRT).
>>>"there was three connections to the subway system (SBK, L & IRT."<<<
IIRC, the three connections to the subway were not there when this
photo was taken. [L & IRT are recent additions]. And the SBK
connected on McDonald Avenue at Avenue I. Put since the cars were
destined for the Flushing Line, it's plausible they would have delivered to the NYC B of T via the SBK & Coney Island.
;-) Sparky
Sparky...seems we think alike...:) (see my response to Quick-draw McThurston).
John, the caboose could also have a connection to Branford -- notice it's the same model as ol' #12? Are you wondering what I'm wondering?....:)
John, the caboose could also have a connection to Branford -- notice it's the same model as ol' #12? Are you wondering what I'm wondering?....:)
What? Something good? I've never been to Branford, so is that like a caboose they have? The photo itself is clearer than the scan, I'll check to see if it has a number on it.
I have it in my hand, but I can't make out the number or the writing on the side. I need to find a magnifying glass, but don't know where I have one off hand.
>>>"I've never been to Branford, so is that like a caboose they have? The photo itself is clearer than the scan, I'll check to see if it has a number on it."<<<
LIRR Caboose #12 was at Branford till June, when it return to Long Island to a rail fan group in Oyster Bay.
The caboose, which was never accessioned in the BERA collection, now has a home on Long Island.
;-) Sparky
Okay, I found a magnifying glass. The side of the caboose says:
LONG ISLAND - 29, oh well, not #12. (any word on where that one went - hopefully not the scrapper.....)
What's with the flatcar/gondola car between the caboose and the "1" train? Was that typical?
Oh, by the way, with the magnifying glass the 1 Train says, "1 Broadway --- Van Cortlandt Park". It is much clearer in the original photo, than the scan. Maybe I should increase the DPI on the scan - I'm new at scanning things.
>>>"Okay, I found a magnifying glass. The side of the caboose says:
LONG ISLAND - 29, oh well, not #12. (any word on where that one went -hopefully not the scrapper.....)"<<<
O.K., it's not LONG ISLAND #12, but a round of applause for the
BMT Man for identifying it as a LIRR Caboose. That definitely
puts the move in Brooklyn not da Bronx.
#12 didn't go to the scrapper, but when I go to the Members Only section of BERA.ORG and the July, 2002 Tripper, it errors out on that edition. Maybe someone else from Branford will chime in with the data. I'll look for my printed version.
#12 is on LONG ISLAND.
>>>"Oh, by the way, with the magnifying glass the 1 Train says, "1 Broadway --- Van Cortlandt Park". It is much clearer in the original photo, than the scan."<<<
All the R12-R15s were delivered with signage for all IRT lines,
1 thru 8, even though they didn't see regular mainline service
till displaced by the R33/R36 WF Cars in the early sixties.
;-) Sparky
Well, it's not #12, but it's one of her 'sisters'. Damn well profiles the same...figured as much since -- like we discussed on Land-line --the New Haven always proudly marked their cabooses in their livery...that was one of the giveaways of it NOT being an NH caboose.
IIRC the LIRR was one of the last RRs (at least on the east coast) to use huge, old wooden cabooses that dated back to the steam-era.
Increasing the scan size will help if you PRINT it on a printer capable or that size, but your MONITOR is only good for 72 - 96 dots per inch, so don't bother trying to bother it if that is waht you are going for. It would also make a file way too big to transimit conviently on the Internet.
Elias
Pease note that the cars are separated from the caboose by a gondola. The B&O Railroad had two such gondolas which usually could be found in the Jersey City Yard. They had a subway coupler on one end and a standard railroad coupler on the other. When St Louis had a shipment of cars ready for NY the gondolas would be sent there and the subway cars would be hauled as part of a regular freight to Jersey and car-floated accross the Hudson probaly to Brooklyn and the SBK. After that they would run over the Hell Gate onto the NY Connecting RR (aka NHRR Harlem River Branch) and run up to 174 Street to connect with the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I said in the last post that the gondolas would be sent to St Louis when a new shipment of subway cars were ready. It has been rumored that during the 50's at least one other company did build New York subway cars . Since these are either R-12's or 14's the gondolas must have been sent to the ACF Plant in Berwick PA.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>>"LIRR Caboose #12 was at Branford till June, when it return to Long Island to a rail fan group in Oyster Bay."<<<
>>>"The caboose, which was never accessioned in the BERA collection, now has a home on Long Island."<<<
LIRR Caboose #12 left the "Shore Line Transit Museum", East Haven,
Conn. and was floated across Long Island Sound on June 25th, 2002.
BERA-TRIPPER, July, 2002:
"In the late 1980s, the Branford Electric Railway Association
re-afirmed its scope of collection policy which excludes "main
line railroad" equipment. Caboose #12 was de-accessioned from
the formal collection, but remained at the museum while the search
for a more appropiate home went on slowly. Several offers being
refused, the museums preference being to follow the guidelines
of the 'Association of Railway Museums' and to find another museum
or preservation group to take the car.
A few years ago, a deal was reached with 'The Friends of Locomotive
#35', a railroad museum located in Oyster Bay. The deal was closed
this spring as the Oyster Bay group had raised the necessary funds
to move the caboose."
There you have the whole story of #12 returning to Long Island,
not the scrap heap or "Solid Waste Mangement".
;-) Sparky
I will bow to the experts on this one, my knowledge of the LIRR an d Brooklyn is minimal, funny thing about being a Bronx native. I figured you guys would know.
Steve Loitsch
Thurston, when this photo was taken the connection to the subway system on the Bay Ridge DID NOT exist. The connection to the SBK DID exist, but since these cars are destined for the IRT, I would guess that the delivery would have been made directly to the Bronx via the Bay Ridge thru Fresh Pond and then over the Hellgate Bridge...
BTW, that is a LIRR caboose. Doesn't it look familiar to you???
Damn! What an AWESOME Photograph! Looks like R-12/14's on the Bay Ridge Branch! NIIIICE!
Gotta be quite rare to see a set of IRT cars on LIRR territory...
I say it was taken in the late 40's when the 12/14s were new on the system. BTW, location seems to be in the vicinity of Brooklyn College or near the crossing with the Brighton line as there are four tracks clearly visible. I'd assume this train is heading eastbound...toward East New York from Bay Ridge.
Doug
Now that I think about it...and since Sparky mentioned these cars first appeared on the Flushing line, I'm thinking that the location might be right near Parkville Junction. Notice a flagman/brakeman (?) on the ground. He may be about to 'split the load' for SBK to take charge of the 12/14's for their last leg to CI Yards. Restudying the photo, I notice that the far left track branches off the second track, so it could be the lead up and over onto Avenue I at McDonald Ave.
Double D,
You are the man, whose familiar with the Bay Ridge Branch and
Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways. Just have to point you in the
proper direction. Not that familiar with the turf, it was a
GUESS. BTW GMTA
;-) Sparky
Yeah, I thought it was a pretty cool photo myself. It was sitting in the box for years, only a few weeks ago did I pull that old box out. AT first, since it was an IRT car, I thought maybe it was under catenary in the Bronx somewhere. But since you mentioned that was an LIRR caboose, it must be the Bay Ridge Branch. Your guess is as good as mine (well better actually), so it makes sense to me that it would be headed to McDonald Ave. The only thing that puzzles me though is the timeframe. Did they call the West Side local the "1" train already in the late 1940's? I don't remember when they started numbering the route. Although what would that train be doing on the LIRR tracks if it wasn't a delivery photo, so it must be when they were delivering them in the late 40's.
I would love to see what was on the front of that train. Is that how they would typically deliver IRT cars back then - Hell Gate-Fresh Pond-Bay Ridge-McDonald Ave-Coney Island, and then up the BMT to the IRT?
Actually, another question (for current deliveries). I've seen the R142's at Fresh Pond. Do they send them down the Bay Ridge line, and then switch them to the Bay Ridge Line, and then send them to the Junius Street switch, or do they send them to the L interchange, and switch them to the IRT somewhere else?
The R-142's from Plattsburgh arrive from CP Rail on flatcars at NY&A headquarters at Fresh Pond (Glendale). The delivery usually occurs on a Wednesday night/Thursday morning. Then, on Fridays (mostly) they are off-loaded individually. Then a TA contractor crew adds drawbars and the cars are assembled into trains of 5-car sets. One of the NY&A diesels hauls them up the Bay Ridge to Linden yards where they meet a NYCT diesel (not necessarily an SBK unit) and the consist is moved inside the fence at Linden. The NY&A loco returns to Fresh Pond, and the NYCT loco will haul the new cars through the IRT system via the 'Y' connecting bridge alongside Junius Street to 180th Street Yard. So, Chris you are pretty much on the money about the new car movements.
I think you're right. I remember a newspaper photo from about 1948 showing brand new subway cars (I not sure if they were R10's or R12/14's) being ferried on a car float across N.Y. harbor.
Hey Chris! Thanks for sharing these photos with us subtalkers. Your father's find are pricesless. They should be preseved for the future to see. Some of our R-62+ fans would want to explore the past and wished they were born earlier.
Philip Hom
The SMEE era - Oldies but goodies!
I enjoy learning about and looking at the past, but I would not want to have been born earlier.
I once RIPPED on a person who said he was born at the wrong time.
I enjoy learning about and looking at the past, but I would not want to have been born earlier.
I agree with that. Although I would love to go back in time for a few days here and there (as long as I could come back to now).
I think I found the front of the train that is shown in the beginning of this thread! (The R12's with the LIRR caboose at the end). This photo was buried in the bottom of the box. Wait till you see what is on the front! Of course it may not be the same train, but I think it probably is.
R12's behind steam! (I believe it is #5772 followed by #5771). I can't quite make out the engine's number, so I have no idea what kind of engine it is. Also, what are the tracks that move off to the left?
So what do you think? I thought it was pretty cool. Well I better get back to work now, tonight I will have to continue sorting through the box.
That photo is whack, yo. Looks like PATH or something, but I know it is not. Are you sure the steam engine is on the same track as the subway cars? Could you scan the photos a little larger so we can see them better? Thanks.
--Brian
Try looking at it directly from the link posted below. It'll be a little bigger. When I try to post the original size as a photo in a post, the photo doesn't work, that's the problem I had last week when I first started to try to post photos from the site I have the photos uploaded onto.
Click Here
it says sorry....
your photos are on a sony image station page like many of mine. i am on the sony image station for uploads of my transit photography &
my sony digital camera and it will not allow uploads...
dont feel bad they block that out.
Oh well, you'll just have to do with the smaller photos until I upload them on a different site.
sony used to allow thier users to do this however they ar now a bunch
of cheepooos !!
no links and no photo uploads !!..........................
It's a LIRR steam engine, and the steam engine IS connected to the R-12's via that transition car between the engine's tender and the R-12's.
I'd venture to say that the cars were being delivered and are on the LIRR Bay Ridge line near Parkdale Junction.
Did the Bay Ridge line's overhead elecrical wiring last into 1948?
It lasted well into the 1950's, then was de-energized, with the wires left in place, sometime in the late 50's or early 60's, with diesels providing the power. The wires were re-energized around 1964 when the New Haven acquired some used electrics fron the Norfolk and Western. However, a few years later, the wires were de-energized again and scrapped.
More rapid transit improvements for Miami:
Add 88.9 new miles to the existing rapid transit system.
Add 24-hour daily service beginning June 2003.
Increase frequency of rail service to every 15 minutes evenings and weekends and every 10 minutes during midday hours.
Free Metromover service for everyone.
Link below shows map of expanding trackage
http://www.trafficrelief.com/rapid_transit_projects.htm
More information about the improvements are linked below:
http://www.trafficrelief.com/
Paul
WOW!! I didn't know that they were thinking of doing all of that with the Metrorail in Miami.Thanks for sharing this info and if each extention does get permission to be built,I can't wait for them to be completed.
The picture I see on the Home page today is the one of the redbirds
being dumped off the barge into the ocean.
Question:
Do they have to strip off any asbestos and other toxic material before
doing this?
Where is this work done?
I am tempted to make a shirt with a redbird and it's new fishy passengers aboard! Seriously, I'm not so into the equipment as I am
the culture. Think of all of the memories these birds are taking along with them to their burial at sea.
The reefing is being done because reefed Redbirds don't require Asbestos removal, so this is saving NYC Transit lots of dough. Windows, doors and some other items are being removed before reefing, but not a great deal. This workk is being done in 207th St Yard in Manhattan.
Now, if you could incorporate a T-shirt with a (reefed) Redbird memorializing the lines it ran on, that would be a best seller!
--Mark
I agree with this post.
I like the idea of the T-shirt. Maybe when we find out when the last RB gets retired there could be a T-shirt commemorating that.
But a best seller? There is a rather selective audience for such a T-shirt showing a subway car.
The route T-shirts that Subwaygrrl makes appeal to a much more general audience which is why they sell.
But a best seller? There is a rather selective audience for such a T-shirt showing a subway car
Point well taken. That's why I suggested putting the routes on which the Redbirds ran.
--Mark
We need a tee-shirt with some fish hanging out the windows and a big old octopus at the controls!
: ) Elias
That's the spirit!!
Or how about a song?!?
"Re-hed bird, down low neath the reef are thee.
Re-hed bird, they buried you in the sea..."
Everybody!! Anybody??
Will this do?
Ah yes, a current photo of one of the redbirds, showing that the fish are starting to move into their reefs........obviously taken off the South Carolina coast......
I thought they would be packed with sardines during rush hour.
Giggle!
I like that one. I picture sardines with briefcases in one fin,
and holding the overhead handholds in the other. (What are those
things called, now that they're not straps?)
I thought they would be packed with sardines during rush hour.
I guess that means life has not changed too much for the sunken redbirds.....
Some of us would rather see this, of course...
Looks good to me!
Oooooh! I must have seen these images, which prompted my initial
thoughts on the redbirds. You guys are putting all the pieces together now.
Still, that distinctive red on the outside is what makes the redbirds
stand out for me.
Are this painting and that mosaic likely to be based on redbirds?
the "painting" is a modified picture of an R142, But the mosaic is a redird of some kind(or an R32/38)
I see they decided to start reefing the R142's instead of continuing the redbird reefing program.
Awwww, a Sea Vulture! Nyuk nyuk nyuk! :o>
wayne
Why, soitanly!:)
Sure, David,
We'll just make it a redbird!
Division C (work trains) did make up T-shirts for their work train motormen and supervisors last year as the first cars went out to sea. I knew they were giving or selling them at 207 in limited supply. Making the T shirt isn't the hardest part, its choosing the background. There aren't many clear pictures of the cars walking the plank. It is because of the asbestos they are being dumped in the first place. PATH on the other hand is abating the asbestos inside the Ks before sending the cars out for conventional scrapping on flatbeds. Junkyards are not scrapping cars with asbestos the way they did in the '80s anymore
I have a feeling our paths (no pun intended) have crossed. Contact me by e-mail. I will return it to you later tonight. Thanks.
The url's of two November 1 photos of the temporary PATH station at the WTC site were emailed to me by Bill Vigrass.
http://photomail.photoworks.com/sharing/ImageLarge.asp?1=IclvCgMBmdcXAMEKMwxN&2=0&3=2&fromroll=&Key=1~FQQ4aBru.cLf2pIHnPT.fJJgLU6J.O5yG2BHoGpjMm0odnCMCQmcyMtXM.9bF.Xs&voice=&idx=18&msgurl=
http://photomail.photoworks.com/sharing/ImageLarge.asp?1=IclvCgNHmtcXAMYINckT&2=0&3=2&fromroll=&Key=1~FQQ4aBru.cLORA9bsJET1DISi.xEyRUTA1K/6Qav2nQ94UEW.tCThepkcygRhP0D&voice=&idx=19&msgurl=
Looks rather permanent to me.
It appears they are going to make it look as close to the previous station as they can. I think the only difference is that the entrances will be at either end rather than in the middle.
"Looks rather permanent to me. "
What did you expect? Tin foil and cling-wrap? It's permanent until they decide to reroute it.
Doesn't the US Army still use temporary buildings that were constructed during WWII?
Perhaps. Quonset huts come to mind.
Until very recently, the University of Miami's (Miami, Florida) physics department labs were in WWII era Quonset huts.
Don't knock Quonset huts. They were built stronger than many buildings built today. If you keep your eyes open you'll still see survivors all accross this country.
If you keep your eyes open you'll still see survivors all accross this country.
Right. Barn #1 at Branford comes to mind... we still refer to it as the Quonset.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not knocking them.
They do seem to be getting somewhere. However, I am amazed no one from NJ is making a fuss that they only seem to be working a single shift.
Remember you are talking about the Port Authority. They never rush for anything.
"Remember you are talking about the Port Authority. They never rush for anything."
All the worse in this case where they're not even paying. Insurance and FEMA are. Meanwhile tens of thousands of NJers are stuck with longer trips to the office. Not only PATH riders, but now also north Jersey riders whose Secaucus Transfer connections are being delayed.
«Not only PATH riders, but now also north Jersey riders whose Secaucus Transfer connections are being delayed. »
What has Secaucus transfer to do with Downtown access? PATH still goes to 33rd Street, avenue away from Penn Station.
Arti
"What has Secaucus transfer to do with Downtown access?"
Secaucus transfer is just about ready to open. However, because the WTC PATH station is closed, NJT trains from Newark to Penn are standing room only. There is no room for the additional passengers the Secaucus transfer would bring.
NJT has therefore announced that the Secaucus transfer will not open, at least during rush hour, until the PATH WTC station is reopened.
This is a transcript
between a commuter and the
railroad company, regarding services of the latter.
"Gentlemen: I have been riding trains daily for the
last twenty-two years, and the service on your line
seems to be getting worse every day. I am tired of
standing in the aisle all the time on a 14-mile trip.
I think the transportation system is worse than that
enjoyed by people 2,000 years ago.
Yours truly, A Commuter"
The Reply to the above:
"Dear Sir: We received your letter with reference to
the shortcomings of our service and believe you are
somewhat confused in your history. The only mode of
transportation 2,000 years ago was by foot.
Sincerely, LIRR
the Counter-Reply was:
"Gentlemen: I am in receipt of your letter, and I
think you are the ones who are confused in your
history. If you will refer to the Bible, Book of
David, 9th Chapter, you will find that Balaam rode to
town on his ass...
That, gentlemen, is something I have not been able to
do on your train in the last twenty-two years!
Yours truly, A Commuter"
The Counter Reply was:
Dear Sir: We are sending you one donkey for your riding pleasure.
Note: Hay, grain and water are not included. You will need to supply
those.
Sincerely, LIRR"
Heh heh, that was pretty good.
Of course, one might say that the Long Island Rotten Road is a joke.
Moral of the story:
Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
:o)
Still, things have improved since the 1960s, when the claim is that a villain tied a heroine to the LIRR tracks, and she starved to death.
Two decent jokes!
LOL
I have been railfanning at Metuchen for quite some time and I periodically hear those automated or manual PA announcements which inform passengers which train will arrive late, etc. I have come to notice that more than half of those announcements are inaccurate and pointless.
On a Sunday a couple of months ago, a manual message (female) was announced stating that all NJT trains are subject up to a 30 minute delay due to a police investigation. The second time they repeated that message about 3 minutes later, the train arrived during the announcing.
This morning I railfanned at Metuchen. I hear an automated (male) announcement of "the 7:46a train to New York, will be operating 5, to 10 minutes late. We apologize for the inconvenience." At 7:48, the train arrives. The only accurate message I heard was that the 8:00a train to Trenton is operating 5 to 10 minutes late. The train came at 8:08a.
Another accurate message I heard was over a year ago in the summer, where I took the train at Metuchen, and as I got off, the automated message said "The -:--p (I don't know the time) train to Trenton, is operating 25 minutes late." I was really mad. What can make a train so late? There wasn't even construction, disruption, or anything.
The other times that I have been at Metuchen to railfan or to ride, a miscellaneous number of inaccurate announcements were heard.
Questions:
1) Who controls the automated, manual announcements at intermediate NJT stops on the NEC and elsewhere?
2) How accurate are they and where do they get their information from?
3) This morning, there was a totally inaudible announcement made at Metuchen. Minutes later, The manual (female) voice said "We are testing the PA system. Any ticket agent at the station who hears this message, please respond to Hoboken." First of all, there are no ticket agents at Metuchen, only TVM's. The announcement was made while the train was entering the station, so I don't think any of the workers on the train heard it. (I know sometimes they put the key in and open the door to look out before the train stops, but no one did it in today's 30 degree weather.
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The same for this question, plez?
Nobody knows who controls the PA System?
Nobody knows how accurate they are?
Nobody posting on this board - or at least who has read your question - obviously.
Most of us probably have an opinion about their accuracy, but since we don't have facts we're not saying anything.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the cold, sunny morning today, I have spent about one hour (7:15a to about 8:10a) railfanning at Metuchen and I noticed some interesting things:
1) ALL northbound and southbound NJT trains were consisting of Arrow III MU's.
2) ALL southbound "super-expresses" were slow even without the track switch from track 4 to 3 at Metuchen.
3) ALL northbound "super-expresses" sped past the station on track 1 and 2.
4) A 16-car of Amfleets led by an AEM7/AC sped past track 1 at 80mph.
5) A strange "4-car" consist which is probably the 8:01a train but I want to make sure.
6) Southbound, 8-car, 8:00a train has rusty and noisy wheels on trailing cars #1489-1488.
7) Acela Regional Amfleets consisted of about 5 out of an 8-car, train pulled by a HHP-8 locomotive.
8) Impressed by the many number of trains that passed in this hour.
Questions:
1) Does NJT have its Comet IV trainsets reserved for NEC's midday, weekday trains?
2) What causes the slow speed for the southbound super-expresses passing at Metuchen?
3) What is the odd-ball 16-car Amfleet train that sped past the station this morning? Or is it regular?
4) Is the strange, 4-car Arrow III consist the 8:01a train?
5) Does the rusting of the wheels create more friction or anything? How high are they on the repair priority list?
6) Is AMTRAK going to get rid of ALL of its Acela Regional Amfleets? Because I noticed those turquoise cars on that train this morning.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Yes..................
This is very interesting.
Now would someone PLEASE answer my questions?
...
I haven't seen SubTalk this way.
Se Habla Ingleso. ;)
Well I can't believe with a SubTalk crowd like this not ONE person can answer ONE of my questions.......
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/'
and it has been TWO WEEKS........
Just be patient. If someone knows, he will answer your questions.
Chaohwa
Lighten Up. If someone knows the answer, you'll get one.
-Stef
and maybe as dion and the belmonts sang no one knows.
Man, I realize that it's frustrating when nobody seems to notice your questions. However, it should have occured to you that perhaps nobody here actually knew the answers to your questions. A few of those are pretty pointed questions, the kind that it would take an engineer or conductor to answer. What you should do, rather than just posting incessant reminders, is simply to ask the questions later in another post. Or else go to Railroad.net or Trainorders.com and ask the questions again, in sure that TR-00 or Sirsonic at RR.net might have anwers to some of your questions. All you are doing is trying to get on peoples killfiles through that kind of post, and then you'll really be sunk, cause then you might have alienated somebody who might have been able to actually help you.
BTW: I think I remember riding 1489 over the summer, yeah it sucked, rough noisy ride, all the way into the city.
Also, you might want to check the original post, I belive that at least one of you questions got answered.
I've asked quite a few question over the last year that no one has answered. It usually means no one knows.
Well I can't believe with a SubTalk crowd like this not ONE person can answer ONE of my questions.......
and it has been TWO WEEKS........
DOn't take it personal. The likely answer is that probably no one knew the answer. I know I have asked questions that maybe one person responded to in a week. Other times I have asked something and got maybe 20 replies in 30 minutes. It all depends on the question/topic. If someone knows the answer, believe me, the people here will be more than happy to answer. You will probably learn more than you ever wanted to know about whatever the topic is. If not it is more than likely very few know the answer.
Don't take it so personally, I might be redundant but most questions are answered rather quickly but in your case, basically we just don't know the answers to your questions. It looks like a lot of us are not familiar with NJT to that extent so you can't get mad at us if we don't know.
Yo no sé nada.
I did answer (just) one of your questions, but I guess not well enough. If you would clarify your question maybe someone could give a better answer.
Que Pasa? :)
The only Spanish I know is "La via del tren subterraneo es peligrosa...". I can't remember if I've seen those signs on the subway lately. Are they still there?
The only Spanish I know is "La via del tren subterraneo es peligrosa...".
I also learned a phase in Spanish from the subway. "No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta". I learned that from the R27-30's.
I'm sure that phrase will come in quite handy one day when I am lost in a Spanish speaking country one day and I must tell someone "not to lean against the door!" :)
They had those stickers on the trains right after the "Please Keep Hands Of The Door." stickers were removed.
I can't remember if I've seen those signs on the subway lately. Are they still there?
I can't remember either. I don't think I noticed those lately.
I know my phrase, "No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta" is gone.
Now that phrase is going to be in my head all evening:
-No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta.......
-No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta.......
-No Se Apoye Contra La Puerta.......
Yeah I know I should have taken a book or newspaper on all those trips on the subway staring at the sign over the doors....
6) Is AMTRAK going to get rid of ALL of its Acela Regional Amfleets? Because I noticed those turquoise cars on that train this morning.
What do you mean by "get rid of" ... they were always going to keep the cars themselves, Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to just throw them away. I believe Gunn has said that he wants to get rid of the Acela brand from the non-Express trains, so maybe they'll remove that weird outside decal scheme from all of them at some point.
From what I've heard Amtrak isn't going to remove the overall lava lamp paint scheeme, just not paint any more cars that way.
1) Does NJT have its Comet IV trainsets reserved for NEC's midday, weekday trains?
No, most Comet IV's are on Midtown Direct trains.
2) What causes the slow speed for the southbound super-expresses passing at Metuchen?
Who knows, any number of anomolies can cause this.
5) Does the rusting of the wheels create more friction or anything? How high are they on the repair priority list?
A moving wheel gatheres no rust on the tred and requires no repair to fix it.
6) Is AMTRAK going to get rid of ALL of its Acela Regional Amfleets? Because I noticed those turquoise cars on that train this morning.
Huh?
Me and my family are going to the Museum this coing up Sunday 11/10. I think my daughter will like it since she like trains. Is there anyone going to be there, and were would I be able to find you.
Robert
Robert,
I think most SubTalkers will be away from "Shore Line" this weekend.
What's the age of your daughter? Strong representation of
SubTalkers on Saturdays after Thanksgiving for "Santa On The Trolley"
except December 7. I do not know if that fits your schedule.
;-) Sparky
I should be around. Finding me is another story!
I try to find you.
Robert
Me and my family are going to the Museum this comming up Sunday 11/10. I think my daughter will like it since she like trains. Is there anyone going to be there, and were would I be able to find you.
Robert
Robert,
Most of the SubTalk regulars from the museum worked last weekend
on 'Maintenance of Way' with the track guru, so it's doubtful any
would be about. Check my reply on other tread, since you echoed.
;-) Sparky
I already saw some pictures of new cars on the LIRR and Metro-North. What lines are they on? Where can I find pictures of them on the web?
There are no new units on the MNRR, just the LIRR.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
however MN will be recieving the M7's. LIRR has priority, thugh
ANYWAY! The new units may be called the M-8's.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
My friggin Bad. M7, M8, Big shyt. Alright? If youre gonna nitpick....
To anser the question, on the LIRR they are running to Flatbush Terminal but I forget which line it is but it is one of the lines that servies Brooklyn.
The current M-7 runs are
The FBA to Long Beach leaving at 7:31am from FBA.
The Long Beach to FBA leaving Long Beach at 8:38am.
The FBA to Ronkonkoma leaving FBA at 6:04pm.
Is that a weekday schedule? Because Im gonna try to see if I can view it at Nostrand Ave. from my window at like 6:15 pm.
AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
you were right, they will ONLY be called the M7s
>ANYWAY! The new units may be called the M-8's.
>
>-AcelaExpress2005
if they are M-8's they better have panthographs on them.
They wont !!
Connecticut DOT didn't contibute 1 penny toward the purchase.
Hello all:
I'm not sure how many people are interested in this, but I thought I'd mention the fact that a new and updated version of the "Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars" list has been posted. It is also at a new URL, www.bera.org/pnaerc.html
There are a few new cars on the list, but the majority of the changes were made at Jeff Hakner's end (website/interface design). He designed a new search feature that allows you to search in just about any field. If you like, you can search for NYCTA cars owned by Railway Preservation Corporation that have D3-F compressors! It's really quite amazing, especially to someone like myself who has to keep reminding himself NOT to put white-out on the computer screen. :-)
Hope you enjoy it. As always, comments and corrections are welcomed and appreciated.
Frank Hicks
way cool and many thanks. the surprise is the two ex IC Electric trailers in East Ely Nevada who would have imagined/ BTW I have a destination rollsign from a sister car -- one of my TREASURES.
and a spare roll only. Does IRM need the spare?
"I have a destination rollsign from a sister car -- one of my TREASURES. and a spare roll only. Does IRM need the spare?"
Sorry it took so long for me to respond - I've been busy at IRM this weekend! I don't think we really need an extra roll sign for our IC MU cars, although we're always looking for extras like this just in case a need arises. My suggestion - and I don't mean to be macabre here - is that folks may want to put IRM in their will for such items, to eventually give them to the Museum (or any other museum) where they would be reunited with their fellow equipment. We always appreciate people keeping us in mind!
Frank Hicks
Very good.
The comprensive index of organizations makes it easy to find what's almost everywhere and the current condition of it.
Hat's off to Frank and Jeff H. for their hard work on this index and to BERA for hosting it.
Very Impressive. Thanks, Jeff, for the new search feature which must have taken a lot of work and is fabulous!!! I think I'm going to spend a lot of time there.
Heard on the news that Queens bound E/V trains will skip 53/Lex between 7 and 9am. No doubt this is in response to the severe crowding in that station due to the RCA's (Restricted Clearance areas).
What do is meant by "restricted clearance areas"? What are they doing there?
Construction.
Oh, it must have one of those walls up along the platform like Canal Street/Nassau. There is only about 10 (maybe less!)feet of platform to wait on at least 3/4 of the platform!
The station is getting an ADA upgrade.
That's between 7:30 and 9:30am.
I arrive in that station (Manhattan-bound) at the peak of the AM rush to transfer to the 6 and things have actually gotten better in the last week or so. They now force everyone exiting the trains (in both directions) or coming down the stairs from the Lex Av end to keep to the right, moving forward. In that way, there is only 1-way traffic on each side of the construction. Before this, there was a chronic "traffic jam" when people tried to go in both directions on both sides of the construction (they're building both a new escalator and an elevator). While this means people exiting Queens-bound trains have to "loop around" to exit at the Lex Av end, it's a lot less inconvenient than having the trains skip Lex entirely.
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
E V 6 Morning Rush Hour Changes
for Lex Av/51 St Customers
Beginning Tuesday, November 12 and continuing until 2004
The following service changes are necessary to reduce overcrowding and make the Lexington Av platform safer during station rehabilitation.
Monday to Friday, between the hours of 7:30 AM and 9:30 AM only, the following is in effect:
No transfer from the 6 to the E or V at 51 St
Queens-bound E and V trains SKIP Lexington Av
If you transfer from the 6 to the E or V:
For Queens, stay on the 6 to 59 St and transfer to the R. Take the R to Queens Plaza.
For 6 Av/8 Av, take the 6 to 42 St-Grand Central and transfer to the 7. Take the 7 to 5 Av for the V or Times Square for the E.
If you usually take a Queens-bound E or V to Lexington Av, use the 5 Av E and V station at 53 St instead.
---END OF ALERT---
Seems to me they are also making the transfer from the 6 to the E and V one way in the mornings. Should be interesting to see this. My question is why didn't they tell people until now?
They're overreacting (see my post above). I think the real reason they're doing this is to save money by not needing as many Platform Conductors to keep things moving. It's going to inconvenience a lot of people for a long time.
I heard there going to be budget cuts in the MTA. Could mean less trains, and less station agents. Lets just hope the 80s don't return, when you waited a long time for a grafitti train full of gangstas.
They have done this before for a brief time.
The pass two weeks there have been calls to the PD for cops to respond because of the heavy crowding. They have shut down the esculators almost every day because of the crowding.
This GO is NOT because of budget cuts.
I've been there during and just after those 2 hours in the morning and it is quite a crazy situation. Transfering from the 6 to the E to get to Penn Station with one suitcase on wheels is a mess there. Firstly, no one walks on the right side of the walkway between the IRT and IND. Secondly, both escalators are going up so everyone going down has to walk. People with suitcases don't go very fast, nor do the elderly. As a result you get a whole line of people going down the stairs at a very slow speed. Finally, at the bottom, many people are trying to get on trains to 8th Avenue and cross over the platform, blocking the flow of traffic heading upstairs. I haven't been in NYC since August although someone posted they have made a traffic pattern at the bottom of the escalator to improve the flow there. Even so, the amount of people there is ridiculous. They don't save much on fewer platform conductors, I am sure some of them will be repositioned so people can't get into the corridor from the IRT to the IND, which I imagine will become one way (to the IRT) in the mornings.
No, they're not overreacting. That platform has been dangerous since work began. However, the real reason isn't the restricted clearances, but the stubborn, argumentative and downright stupid Queens IND riders who ignore the platform attendants. Despite being warned verbally and in writing, people continue to stand and wait for trains in the RCA's. They do NOT allow safe passage for people coming from the opposite direction to pass (everyone assumes they have the right of way and that YOU must wait for them to pass). It was only a matter of time before someone got shoved onto the tracks.
Sounds like they need Tokyo style "pushers"
Since they installed a chain at the bottom of the stairs last week, it forces people coming down the stairs to keep to the right, moving forward beyond the construction. I was there at 8:35 this morning and things were much better than 2 weeks ago. They should have waited another week before deciding to have Queens-bound trains skip the station. Another thing they could do is remove the railing on the downtown side just before the escalator and then move the southbound 10 car marker to the end of the platform. In this way, people getting off the first car (the most crowded) would not be blocked by the construction.
How things were this morning is a poor reading on how it will be in the future. Due to the holiday, many people are off from work today. Riding will be back to normal tomorrow, riding is much lighter than normal today.
That's true (although the trains were pretty crowded this morning) but even last week when there was no partial holiday, things were much better than the previous week.
One other point frtom a bulletin issued by Stations:
All booth areas on the Lexington Avenue side will be exit only form 730 am until 930 am. Entries are from the 3rd ave side. Queens E and V trains will bypass the station
One other point frtom a bulletin issued by Stations:
All booth areas on the Lexington Avenue side will be exit only form 730 am until 930 am. Entries are from the 3rd ave side. Queens E and V trains will bypass the station from 730 am until 930 am
So now any passengers on the E coming up from Penn or Port Authority or PATH intending to get off at Lex/53 will exit at the Madison Avenue end of 5/53?
When an E train pulls in now during the AM rush, the platform frequently doesn't clear until the next train is in the station and opening up its doors. Just guessing, but this has got to just about triple the number of people using that exit. If 2 E trains ever pull in consecutively, there may be no room on the platform for people to get off.
CG
Its one of those things damned if you do and damned if you don't. At least Fifth/53rd has no RCA's though, a lot of times I had to deal with that station I felt uncomfortable passing an RCA with someone next to me (they slip, I slip, we both hit the tracks).
I think they need to extended the hours a little more, because when I've been on PC at Lex/53rd it really does not slow down too much until around 10:30.
It seems to me that this should be reversed.
It's inconvenient either way. But passengers from Queens to the 6 can use the R (transferring across the platform at Queens Plaza, if necessary), or if they don't mind going up to the street and using a MetroCard transfer, they can use the F. They can also use the 7 from Roosevelt. And passengers from Queens to Lex itself can go to 5th and backtrack one short stop.
OTOH, passengers from the 8th Avenue corridor to the 6 have few decent alternates. Sure, they can go to 42nd and walk through the long passageway to the 7, N/R/W, or shuttle, but that's a pretty painful transfer, and it's crowded enough as it is. Or they could stay on the train to 23rd-Ely and backtrack, but that's a heck of a detour, and it forces them to use the overcrowded Manhattan-bound trains.
Then there's the issue of people who don't normally ride the E/V in the morning rush who may be unaware of the service change. If they don't hear the announcement at 5th, they're in for a long ride to another borough. OTOH, if the pattern were reversed, at worst they'd end up a few blocks away.
The E currently carries a heavy load of passengers from Penn Station to the East Side. Many of them come in on the LIRR, and I expect a lot of them to get off at Jamaica or Woodside for easier access to the East Side. Aren't the inbound subways from Jamaica and Woodside crowded enough already?
Fewer people are inconvienenced by making the Manhattan bound trains stop. Most mornings, both escalators are going up and are packed.
Yes, but their inconvenience is much more easily avoided than the inconvenience of those going the other way.
I agree. Having trains from Queens skip the station would make more sense. The R is only running at 72% capacity, and it can absorb all the E/V riders who need to transfer to the 6 at Lex without difficuty. But lets remember one thing: Queens IND riders are the most whiniest, selfish, ignorant and arrogant straphangers in the system. They complain for unjustifiable reasons. Imagine how they'll react with a legit reason?
If I had my way, I'd close the whole station and I'd get all the work done as quickly as possible.
>>But lets remember one thing: Queens IND riders are the most whiniest, selfish, ignorant and arrogant straphangers in the system. They complain for unjustifiable reasons. Imagine how they'll react with a legit reason? <<
Back in 1980, when the R-46 trucks were cracking, the Queens IND riders bitched about the R-46's being replaced by R-10's on the (E) & (F) !
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course I would celebrate, as there'd be a railfan window again.
I never rode the R10's, too bad I missed out on them.
The MTA website says that only QUEENS-bound E and V trains will skip Lex/53 between 7:30 AM and 9:30 AM.
BUT... if you listen to the automated message the MTA has on their hotline (718-330-1234), they just say that E and V trains will skip Lex/53. The message makes no reference to exactly which trains (in which direction) will skip the station... but it does say that passengers coming to or from Queens to Lexington Avenue should use the 7 to Grand Central or the R to Lex/59.
So, what or who is correct here?
Might it be an effort by the MTA to divert Lexington Av passengers to the other lines, which is why they're not specific in their recorded message as to which trains are skipping?
There will also be no transfer from the 6 to the E/V in either direction.
"There will also be no transfer from the 6 to the E/V in either direction."
Last time they did this, the stairways and escalators at the Lexington end of the platform were 1-way up. I suspect that's what they'll do again.
That means no free transfer from the 6 to the E/V because you have to go outside and over to 3rd Ave to get to the E/V platform.
It's very unlikely they would prevent transfers from the E/V to the 6, since once you're at the top of the west escalator the passage to the 6 has plenty of space and no danger.
From what I understand, there will be, just only from the E and V to the 6, and not the other way around. The escalators from the E and V to the walkway are often both going up in the mornings anyway, so it is logical to assume they will make that whole escalator/stairway and transfer one way to keep the crowds moving.
Just keep away from 53 St and Lexington Ave until the work is finished!
Only reason I use the E to 6 transfer on a regular basis is to get to Penn Station so I don't have to take my suitcase over the gap at Times Square or up and down the stairs at Grand Central. The E transfer is the easiest way to get from the 6 to Penn. Of course, you used to easily get me onto the 7 train since it had Redbirds but it is harder now. The crosstown isn't really an option since it is so slow. Of course, I can try to time my departures so I pass through after 9:30 (I have only gone through before 7:30 once).
Only Queens trains will skip during the speciufied hours. Also- all booths on the Lexington Ave Side will be set for exit only./ Yes- you can still buy cards or tokens at those booths.
Oncer the project is finished there will be a full length mezzanine.
For those who complain about the non-railfan view (they complain when the TA does work, they complain when it doesn't do work), here's an explanation from my wife as to why this annoys her:
OK, so they're improving the station. That's great. But why can't they accelerate the work? Why are they saying it will take the better part of 2 YEARS? And usually things take longer than they say! (Example, in our neighborhood a subway entrance scheduled for reopening in August 2002 is still closed).
"OK, so they're improving the station. That's great. But why can't they accelerate the work? Why are they saying it will take the better part of 2 YEARS? "
Budget and manpower. Are the crews available to do the work 24/7? Is there budget available to do that? Is there cash flow available from MTA accounts available to cut checks any faster per fiscal quarter?
Also, they have to keep the station open during the work. That surely slows things down.
Definately!
Agreed.
Why do they HAVE to keep the station open? I know it may inconvience some people, but as was mentioned earlier in this thread, Manhattan-bound travelers can always transfer to the R at Queens Plaza and Queens-bound passengers always have the option of exiting at 5/53rd (Madison exit, which is only 2 blocks away) or trekking through times square to go crosstown. While it may be annoying for a while, I feel that the really long term (until at least 2004) construction at Lex/53 will be even more of a pain.
The users of the station have a choice. Close the station so the work takes less time or keep it open and have the work take longer and have RCAs in the station. The answer is almost always the latter. The passengers who use the station got what they wanted.
Well, some of them. Not the ones traveling northbound in the morning rush nor the ones transferring from the 6 to the E/V in either direction.
Yes they do. I would say partially closing or restricting movement in a station goes in the category of keeping it open with RCAs and the like. If you gave them choice of being the victim of a 12-9 or having to take the R train, which do you think they would choose?
As I've pointed out, having Manhattan-bound trains skip the station would cause a minor inconvenience for most of those affected (a cross-platform transfer at Queens Plaza or a short backtrack from 5th Avenue), while having Queens-bound trains skip the station forces additional long walks or rides on many.
While that is true, I think the cross platform transfers would cause major delays on the R and more inconvienences than convienences. I really do think what they will be doing is the best for everyone.
Will this involve the normal station skipping procedures, which I think are, two horns entering the station, two horns leaving the station, 15 MPH passing the departure signal?
If you ask me, they should run the trains at a constant, slow speed through the platform - 15 MPH from the time the first car enters to the time the last car clears - so the passengers on the platform are not at risk of brushing against a fast moving train. Either put a 15 MPH speed restriction in place during the morning, or better yet, reconfigure the signals in the area with one-shot GT timers which would be active during the morning.
So, they're willing to close the station to limit crowding, but they dont't seem to be willing to get rid of them stupid junk pedalers who lay out blankets in the middle of the platform and sell bootlegged cds and the like.
i love MTA logic.
I just thank god i never have to use that station...
V trains will be skipping 53/Lex from 0742 until 0927.
E trains will be skipping 53/lex from 0733 until 0929.
Will weekend service ever come now that the Montclair Connection is in place?...I would like to be able to visit my friend on the weekends in Bloomfield, but no trains run on the weekends....will NJTRANSIT ever even think about restoring some weekend service in certain lines?
"Will weekend service ever come now that the Montclair Connection is in place?..."
It doesn't look good at the moment. Even the weekday ridership numbers are not up to their expectations. Also, the lovely folks from Montclair are constantly whining about the train horns now that there is much more service coming through, and there is currently a ban on sounding the horn between 7pm and 7am, except for emergencies. I guess that after the first Montclair resident is killed by a train he/she did not hear approaching, they will either eliminate that ban, or try to eliminate nighttime service altogether.
It's not up to expectation, but I heard the company was still pushing to start weekend service.
I thought NJT had money trouble as well as the MTA. Didn't they just do a fare hike?
I don't think they are in a position to add service.
The NJT fares went up in April, I'm not sure if they still are in financially bad shape or not. The source who provided my info on how there might not be weekend service so soon was a trainman on train # 6237 (a Montclair train). He's the one who told me about the lack of ridership (plus I witnessed it myself) and the Montclair residence's aversion to the train horns and all. I don't know where "Moe" is getting his information from. One of us is obviously wrong!
Well here's the thing - won't most new services take time to attract more and more riders?
HOw soon after the opening of the Morris & Essex Midtown Direct did ridership skyrocket?
"HOw soon after the opening of the Morris & Essex Midtown Direct did ridership skyrocket?"
From what I heard, almost immediately! The word was that the immediate popularity of the service caught NJ Transit by surprise. They did not staff the trains adequately (not enough ticket collectors to handle fare collection) in the beginning, and had to create more assignments, obviously. As far as the plans for weekend MidTown Direct service to Dover back in 1996: The plans were there, just that during the first couple of months of MidTown Direct, they had to finish work that was being done at Dover Yard before introducing weekend service.
Regarding Montclair, I believe the company would like to have weekend service there, like Moe stated, but I did hear about community opposition in Montclair. There were stories in the Essex County section of The Star-Ledger a couple of weeks back. The articles might be available on-line, I'm not sure.
Here are two links to recent articles about the whiners in Montclair:
The First Article
The Second Article
Hasn't anyone come forward and told them what the CURE for their problem is? REMOVE those grade crossings, spend some NEW tax money to build an overpass or two and the trains can then blow by silently? Nah. :)
They're getting what they're willing to pay for. Wooooooo-wooooooo-woo-wooooooooooooo ... music to MY ears ...
That would be even worse for those "poor souls" in Montclair..since that would mean CONSTRUCTION NOISE.....you see, Montclair wants to remain like HOOTERVILLE on Green Acres, where one train a day is enough. They don't want ANY progress that would enfringe on their quiet little town and forget about the other towns that might like to have weekend service.
After reading these articles, I seem to remember issues that some people had about the new LIRR DBs when they went into service. But no where in these articles does it mention weekend service and why there is none. I think it is appauling that a local government can tell a state run railroad when and how to run its trains. The LIRR never had any troubles like these.
I have no trouble wit a whistle-ban - as long as NJ Transit gets full immunity from any lawsuit whatsoever arising from a pedestrian or automobile accident at an RR crossing.
How much money woould the town be willing to put up to replace one or more of these crossings with an overpass or underpass, or to permanently close a lightly used crossing and redirect traffic elsewhere?
Yes, there will be weekend service. I have not heard of any specific date yet. Originally, the town of Montclair did not want trains running on the weekend to Hoboken..as a matter of fact, they prohibited NJT's trains from sounding the horns at crossings and stations. Now that they can get a one seat ride to NY, the demand is in. It'll be just a matter of time.
Going the Bloomfield, if you are starting in Manhattan or Newark, there are other options. Newark City Subway now runs to Grove Street in Bloomfield 7 days a week from early AM till after midnight. At Newark Penn connections are available to the NJT Corridor trains and PATH. Also DeCamp bus has service from PABT to Bloomfield - not sure which route and if it runs 7 days per week - but there must be some bus service. Maybe some NJ-based subtalkers can comment further about DeCamp service - but I know that the City Subway now serves Bloomfield.
I was thinking about that, but I am uncertain about the safety of traveling late at night into Newark on the Newark Subway. Also, Grove Street is not very close to where my friend is. He lives right at the end of Montgomery St. which literally borders Belleville. You can actually see the Morris Canal from his window.
It would be so easy for me if the Montclair were available on the weekends. I wish the state of NJ would convince Montclair to let the trains through, if that is the reason for not having service on the weekends.
Think of how many people would love to travel into the city now on the weekends for shopping and the theaters....
Weekend service on the Pascack Valley Line will not occur until the minimum, 2004. I'm not sure about the Montclair Connection. This was on the NJT website under its lists of projects regarding the Secaucus Transfer. Since the delay of the opening of this station, NJT's plans have been pushed back, which includes providing weekend service on this line. NJT is still working on it.
When the North side of the Manhattan bridge opens, the MTA should route the trains as follows (with an emphasis on getting the N out of the tunnel).
B and D would resume their regular 6th ave routes.
The N would run Astoria/Broadway exp/bridge/4th ave exp/Sea Beach (it would stop as 49th, as per the current W)
The Q would run 57th and 7th/Bway/bridge/brighton express
The W would run Astoria/Broadway local/tunnel/4th ave local Bay Ridge
All other routes would remain, except for the M being cut back to Broad st except rush hours
The MTA better get the N out of the slow rat infested tunnel, otherwise they must be high on drugs.
Actually there has been no official plans for when B and D service comes back to brooklyn. If the MTA were smart either:
The B and Q Full time
The D and W Full Time
The D and Q Full time
or the B and W full time.
Whichever one can make the decision of rather we go through this fiasco again.
If only the B and D or the Q and W is full time it can screw up the bridge. AGAIN.
no... it cant hurt the bridge... on the contrary, it would help it
1 on the north and 1 on the south is better than 2 on either side, but ballanced or not, less service is better for the bridge.
Wouldn't that tilt the bridge to a point of no return. Remember, everytime a train passes the building sways.
Sorry. Ignore this please.
I could have sworn someone who knows engineering, about two weeks ago, posted emphatically that having balanced service on the bridge isn't that important. He (or she) explained that the MB was designed to slightly tilt towards the train in the area where the train is. The area then returns to its normal position when the train leaves an area of the bridge.
"I could have sworn someone who knows engineering, about two weeks ago, posted emphatically that having balanced service on the bridge isn't that important. "
The point i that balanced service isn't POSSIBLE. NYCT can't possibly coordinate the trains so that they cross the bridge in pairs, one on the north side and one on the south.
If the bridge isn't repaired to allow it handle an ongoing stream of unbalanced trains, then it hasn't been fixed.
A balanced AMOUNT of service is possible (same number of trains crossing per hour on both sides), even if trains aren't in the exact same position on both sides at the same time.
As to the tilting, part of the rehabilitation project involves stiffening the bridge.
David
"A balanced AMOUNT of service is possible"
Of course. But some people posting here seem to think either that (a) a balanced amount of service puts less strain on the bridge or (b) a balanced amount of service actually means that whenever there is a train on the north side of the bridge there is a train on the south side.
It's probably impossible to dispel those myths, but I thought I'd give it another try.
My fault, I should have been more specific. I meant balanced in terms of train routings on the MB (2 north side routes, 2 south side routes). Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that the tph on both sides should be exactly the same.
Not really. You're assuming that the twisting on one side of the bridge will be cancelled out by twisting from the other side. That won't happen. Balanced service will merely spread out the damage over the whole structure.
Why do we need yet another "What happens when the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens?" thread? Didn't the first few hundred satisfy everyone?
David
And as for (people who work for) the MTA being "high on drugs" if the N doesn't return to the Manhattan Bridge, as a professional who works for NYC Transit I highly, HIGHLY resent that remark. Nobody says that everyone has to like whatever service plan comes to be, but the fact is that the plan is being devised by my fellow professionals, who are well-trained, take great pride in their work, and to my knowledge are completely drug-free. In other words, either prove that people who make decisions that railfans don't agree with are on drugs, or stop saying it.
David
Well somebody over there doesn't like the N. It is now reduced to a shuttle weekends, and none of the Sea Beach stations are scheduled for much needed rehabs.
Couldn't agree with more. It obviously that N is being neglected for several years to this day. Sad enough, THAT SOMEBODY is DUMPING OUR N like YESTERDAY'S TRASH
Where the hell have you been these past few years? A genuine Sea Beach fan. Well, you have made a buddy on Subtalk. I have to admit, though, that although I'm basically an optimist, what has transpired on the Sea Beach the last two decades has made me a little less buoyant about its future. We need a break in the weather.
HAYYYY!...AT LEAST U AND SEA BEACH LINE NOW HAVE MY SUPPORT, If that N does't return to bridge by the end of 2004, Yes, the end of 2004. A protest will be taken place at MTA Headquarter, by then we N fans shall be joined together. This time we're gonna do exactly the same way as Greenpoint folks did for their G.. LOUD AND MEAN!.
You tell me when and where and I will be there.
We're about approach to 2003. And Northside MannyB will be reopen sometime in 2004. We'll just have to wait and see whats gonna happen in the next fall.
Maybe not drugs but don't give any shit that the Sea Beach hasn't gotten the shaft from your pals at the TA. No express anymore, not on the bridge and not at Coney Island. And on weekends a shuttle. That is pure crap. The Sea Beach must be restored to its previous place in the pantheon of great train lines. And it must happen soon.
"The Sea Beach must be restored to its previous place in the pantheon of great train lines. And it must happen soon."
Why? To please people in Arcadia, California?
Yes, the Sea Beach has "gotten the shaft." With all the construction going on over the past few years (Manhattan Bridge, Stillwell Terminal, etc.), SOMEthing had to give. The choice was made to penalize the least-used line in the affected area, and, like it or not, that line is the Sea Beach.
David
Double Dribble David===== No, not to please the people in Arcadia, but rather one person in Arcadia------the number one Sea Beach fan in the country. And no more excuses. Make the Sea Beach an express again, get it over the bridge and send it to Coney Island while fixing the express tracks in Brooklyn and ridership will increase. Instead, you strip the line down bare and then complain no one uses it. What kind of bs are you expecting me to swallow. Now use your good offices and influence and do the things needed to make me happy, hear?
Fred, my good man, how are you? Listen, just to play "devil's advocate" here, just hear me out. I don't have exact statistics to back me up, but just maybe, the population surrounding the Sea Beach line is less than that of the West End. I would bet my paycheck that the area by the Brighton Line is much more populated than the Sea Beach, PLUS you have buses from the "non-subway" areas feeding that line as well. Plus, the Sea Beach is situated mid-way between the Culver Line and the West End, so people on the borders might choose the alternatives for various reasons (the Culver goes to the lower east side and 6th ave, the West End stops near Maimonides Hospital,etc.)
A quick way to determine things is to look at ridership statistics from the days just before the bridge mayhem started back in the early 80's. When the Sea Beach went from Coney Island to Queens via 4th Ave Express, the Bridge, and Broadway Express. When the West End went via 4th Ave Express, over the bridge, and up 6th Ave (either local to 57th Street or express and then Central Pk West local to 168th street). If the Sea Beach had more ridership at that time than the West End, you might have an argument. HOWEVER, all of that was over 20 years ago, and population shifts, demographical changes, and things like express buses (which took some riders away from 4th Ave and Brighton trains) are all factors today.
That being said, David might be right when saying that the Sea Beach is the least used line, even though your argument might be right when you say they "stripped the line bare". The truth may never be determined!
Check out www.bmt-lines.com. It had figures for 1927. Even back then the Sea Beach was less than the West End and far less than the Brighton. Seems to me it had the least ridership of the three Broadway Express services, even back then.
Hey Fishbowl, good to hear from you. Certainly you have a lot of arguments in your favor, but with me, as you know, the Sea Beach is an emotional attachment that runs deep, and since I'm so big on nostalgia I probably subconsciiously want things to return to what I remembered them as a kid. But I appreciate your attempt to let me down easy. Take care and keep in touch.
"The Sea Beach runs deep." That is a good line, because the Sea Beach does run pretty deep especially since it does not go over the bridge anymore.
I don't know if you count Astoria as Sea Beach territory.
At least up to Queens Blvd. the Sea Beach runs deep except for the elevated station in Coney Island.
It is my opinion that had the Sea Beach been designed with some express stations between 59th St and Coney Island (Kings Highway, New Utrecht Avenue), ridership patterns might be totally different. The BRT devised the line for a quick trip to Coney Island, in that time a very big drawcard, and the Sea Beach delivered on that, but as a rapid transit line serving intermediate stations for folks going to work, the local run to 59th Street is considerably slow. You also have to give the TA credit for trying the NX in 1968, but that didn't draw the expected ridership, so it was cut.
--Mark
How much ridership does 86 St on the N have? Yes, I know the MTA has a budget crunch but if it has decent numbers and if the engineering is possible, maybe the TA should consider reconfigurating 86 St into a express stop(if not Kings Hwy). They could construct a new island platform and leave the current side platforms and that could bring new riders to the N [Sea Beach] and that could keep the W. Either one could terminate on the express tracks while one of them could go on to CI, rehab the CI bound express track(its in SORRY shape!) and its all good from there. Plus all of the stations could get a rehab and close every other station in one direction then do the other (a similar plan like the J/Z station rehabs).
These are my thoughts to improve this line.
This should please "Sea Beach Fred#4" ;-)
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Yes, this would please me very much. While we are at it, maybe the TA can allocate some money to repair the express tracks so they run in two directions. That would help immensely to make the Sea Beach a true express. I'm also wondering if they could make Kings Highway, New Utrecht or Fort Hamilton Parkway express stops. Anything to get people going somewhere to get there faster and restore the glory my train deserves.
>>>...maybe the TA can allocate some money to repair the express tracks so they run in two directions.<<<
Fred,
While I can respect your dreams, unfortunately, I do not see the TA doing this anytime soon.
Peace,
Andee
Is that anyway to treat your new friend? You burst my bubble but the dream was good while it lasted. And, by the way, that cartoon you E-Mailed me was a gem. If you get anymore of them keep them coming. I love to laugh and that was a whopper.
I'm afraid express service doesn't make sense on the Sea Beach.
The four busiest stops are 8th Avenue, New Utrecht (including passengers for the W upstairs), Kings Highway, and Fort Hamilton Parkway.
If you were to implement express service by running the N at its current headways but sending half of them express, you'd be reducing service by 50% on the busiest part of the line.
If you were to implement express service by running expresses in addition to the current N local service, you'd be running way too much service on the line.
There's no law that, if an express track exists, it must be used to provide the best service. Look at Astoria: service is better now that both the N and W run local than in 2001 when the W ran express, since the busiest stops are local stops.
Fred, quick...somebody's "dissing" your Sea Beach line...:0)
"Iz he disrespectin' me?!? Iz he disrespectin' me?!? I KNOW he din't jus' disrespec' me!"
Who, me? It's one of my favorite lines to ride -- and, recently, to photograph.
It just doesn't get all that much ridership, especially the stations at the south end. Express service would not serve the ridership demands of the line.
(Note that I'm referring to express service on the Sea Beach line itself, not on 4th Avenue or in Manhattan. I will leave those questions to those who have a better idea than I of ridership patterns, among both Sea Beach passengers and other Brooklyn BMT passengers who all have to make it through DeKalb unscathed.)
Hell Ron, I'm used to Greenie doing that. He does in a way that doesn't pull my chain, but I know he;s no Sea Beach fan. What he might fail to realize is while the Sea Beach could run local in the open cut sections of the line, it could run express throughout the subway portion of Brooklyn, and in Manhattan make it an express as it once was as the Broadway Express. Do that and put over the bridge and back to Stillwell when that station gets refurbished, and walla, you have solved my problem.
Sea Beach Line annual ridership, 2001:
86th Street: 504,878
Avenue U: 690,175
Kings Highway: 947,757
Bay Parkway: 1,256,959
20th Avenue: 944,065
18th Avenue: 1,156,288
New Utrecht Avenue: (complex)
Fort Hamilton Parkway: 1,313,755
Eighth Avenue: 1,936,527
86th Street is easily the least-used station on the line. Why should it be an express stop?
David
Thanks for the info, David. But I did say if it had low ridership/usage, it should be another station(I think I said Kings Hwy). How do you guys think the Sea Beach could have express service w/o costing too much money and have a sensible service pattern?
No Fred, you're wrong. The Sea Beach had the lowest ridership of the affected lines before the long-ago service change. So it should have been the one to have been cut back. It even had the lowest in 1927 and should have had a lower priority even then. Consider yourself lucky to have the memories. But of course, we've been through this several times before....
Well things die very hard with me and since you have been jousting with me for some time I think you are aware that I don't want to give up easily. As I told Fishbowl, the Sea Beach is an nostalgic and emotional attachment that only railfan fanatics can understand.
All kidding aside, Fred, I definitely empathize with you regarding railfan feelings and otherwise. (And I do like your train.) I think we sub-talkers can for fun offer all the 2004 plans we want (my favorite is the one proposed some time ago by Q Exp; what I believe to be the most likely one has been expounded several times by Chris R27/30 and others; and a whole bunch of what I consider to be unrealistic, lousy plans have also appeared on this board). I also believe that the professionals, such as David, at the TA have access to what we don't--ridership figures, times of day with how much ridership, etc. I trust them more to make the correct, realistic decisions than I do many of our fellow subtalkers....
Yep, as usual Q Brightliner, you're right. The bottom line is that it's all in the MTA's hands. I can only wish that my little routing plan comes true. Hey, by the way Sea Beach, if the N doesn't run 4th Ave/Broadway Express over the bridge, I say we march on MTA headquarters. Please don't try to throw foreign objects or hurl grenades at the MTA bosses.
How about we make the MTA bosses walk through the rat infested Montague tunnel?
No, no that would be cruel and unusual punishment and TEN times worse than the grenades. We might all be executed in New York State for unspeakable horrors to humanity...
Still, we ought to consider it and give it a try. After what they have done to my Sea Beach it is probably the mildest form of punishment we could meter out to them.
Wow, Sea Beach showing NO mercy for the bosses. If some of us subtalkers ever march on MTA Headquarters in the name of the Sea Beach line, we gotta tell the cops to bring riot gear, cause Fred would probably be in town.
You mean them skinny midget NYPD riot chicks with white batons that greeted us at Grand Central????? A five MPH breeze would knock em over...third rail contact make em a whisp of stupidity.
Something that can be done before 2004 is to provide adequate service on the F line by repairing the Bergen junction or whatever it is called (can't be that expensive) and to take advantage of the express tracks that were built when it was conceived that the purpose of subways was to provide adequate and fast transportation for the people of the city.
I understand there is still some question as to whether there are enough cars (hell, I see plenty of cars laid up in the Canarsie yard even during the rush hours) but if that problem is surmounted then:
1. G service should be extended on the local tracks to the natural terminal at Church Avenue which was the intended terminal on that line when it was constructed. Why they came up with Smith-9th Street makes no sense whatsoever as the switching disrupts F service constantly and pax on the G service are deprived of the transfer available at 4th Avenue
2. F service should be via express tracks at least to Church Avenue using the express tracks that are there which would cut about 4 or 5 minutes off the commute. F service during peak times should probably continue express in the peak direction to at least Kings Highway.
3. V service should be extended into Brooklyn running local at least to Church Avenue and probably to Kings Highway to provide local service in conjunction with F express in #2.
This would provide adequate service for folks using this line (service is inadequate especially during evening hours when all trains have standees at current 10 minute headways) and not require very much in capital construction.
I can't see how this plan doesn't make sense if there are enough cars available.
I'm sure you didn't know this, but this plan has been hashed up a couple of times now. The Bergen interlocking is presently under contract for a rebuilding (I don't know if work has started).
"I can't see how this plan doesn't make sense if there are enough cars available."
How about a massive budget crunch. If it isn't at 95% occupancy, don't expect more serrvice; expect the same or less. If it is at 95% occupancy (E, 4), there probably isn't room for more service.
I think that headways in the evening hours is good enough. 10mins? That's perfect considering that the more into the night time,the less people that'll be riding.It's not like there's ever a rush hour crowd at 10PM or anything.
Not a rush hour crowd...take a look at the F trains coming into Jay Street. If there are not seats for everybody outside the rush hours then service is inadequate. A 6 minute headway is what would be adequate until about 11 PM when it could expand to 8 minutes and at midnight perhaps 10 minutes...
If you think every passenger should be guaranteed a seat off-peak, then I'm afraid the F isn't first in line for increased service -- the 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, and A (and possibly others) have worse off-peak crowding.
I've commented in the past that when I ride the 1 on a Sunday morning, chances are I have to stand.
Late night headways are 20 minutes across the board. Where routes overlap, the effective average headway is 10 minutes. The 1/2 gets rush hour crowds at 1:30 in the morning at a combined 10-minute headway.
They should run certain train lines which feed a late night patronage at midday levels. I've ridden the #1/#2/#6/A & W (N at the time) at late nights and their midtown legs are always packed pretty well.
Good idea but the policy is that all late night trains run 20 minutes, even though some lines have 2 lines that create 10 minute intervals.
If the Broadway line has good crowds, maybe they should extend the N or R to 57 St in the late nights and it could terminate on the Q express track when it is not used. This is a good choice if 57 has a double switch from the MB express track (towards the 63 St connector) back to the Brooklyn bound local track. BTW, I WOULD NOT make the (Q) a local in the late nights. What do you guys think?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
I think running the Q local from Canl to 57th at night is a GOOD idea.
I think running the Q local from DeKalb to 57th is an even better idea.
Perhaps, but lower Manhattan isn't as heavily patronized as midtown late at night. There are places to go and things to do at all hours of the night north of Canal St.
Tell that to the Staten Island contingent.
It comes down to a question of time.
Is it more important for through passengers, seated in (relative) comfort and safety on a well-lit, climate-controlled train, to save about seven minutes, or for local passengers, standing on potentially creepy platforms (we're talking late nights, remember), to save an average of five minutes and up to ten minutes? I vote for the latter.
True, but if you're going to run the Q as a local thru the tunnel from 57th St, extra trains will have to be added. That's gonna cost money. I guess you could OPTO the Q with 4-car R68 trains overnight.
Service improvements cost money.
Perhaps it could be balanced by an elimination of one of the three late night Queens Boulevard services.
The G comes to mind.
>>>"The G comes to mind."<<<
Chris, don't even go that route or you'll have this Greenpointer
as an enemy. We Greenpointers have sacrificed service on the
'G' and now that Son of a Beach, Phuckin Mikey Bloomers wants
to take away the "Peoples Fire House" in Williamsburgh/Greenpoint.
Abe Beam tried in '75 and lost. Bloomie could even be Abe's
bootblack. Don't start me up. I like your posts & photos,
but leave my beloved "GG" alone.
;-) Sparky
>>>"The G comes to mind."<<<
Chris, don't even go that route or you'll have this Greenpointer
as an enemy. We Greenpointers have sacrificed service on the
'G' and now that Son of a Beach, Phuckin Mikey Bloomers wants
to take away the "Peoples Fire House" in Williamsburgh/Greenpoint.
Abe Beam tried in '75 and lost. Bloomie couldn't even be Abe's
bootblack. Don't start me up. I like your posts & photos,
but leave my beloved "GG" alone.
;-) Sparky
>>>"The G comes to mind."<<<
Chris, don't even go that route or you'll have this Greenpointer
as an enemy. We Greenpointers have sacrificed service on the
'G' and now that Son of a Beach, Phuckin Mikey Bloomers wants
to take away the "Peoples Fire House" in Williamsburgh/Greenpoint.
Abe Beam tried in '75 and lost. Bloomie couldn't even be Abe's
bootblack. Don't start me up. I like your posts & photos,
but leave my beloved "GG" alone.
;-) Sparky
I was referring to midnight service. The G never ran past Court Sq. prior to the introduction of the V.
Besides, G riders have not been inconvenienced beyond the reduction of train lebgths to 4 cars, despite they crying in the media.
Chris,
I beg your pardon, the 'G' or the "GG" ran most of its service
life between Smith~9th Street and Continental 24/7.
Court Square was a recent terminal. Late nights in the
nineties, they ran to Queens Plaza. At one time when
F's were terminating at 57/6 late nights, the 'G' serviced
179th~Jamaica. Besides it's the only local service on Q.B.
at night, if they have the E & F on the express track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
G/GG Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown
8-19-33 service begins between Queens Plaza and Nassau Ave. Not sure if it went past Queens Plaza at this point.
7-1-37 completed rest of way to Bergen St. Probably began terminating at Smith-9th St. at this point. Also became the Queens Blvd local to 71st St./Continental Av.
1939 World's Fair specials were supposed to be "G" (single), but "S Special" was used
In late 60's and early 70's, was extended to Church Av. so F could run express. But this deprived local passengers of direct Manhattan service, so it was ended.
Becomes G during double letter elimination in the '80s, but some still refer to it as "GG"
1995-2001 cut back to Court Square for 63rd St. connector construction.
12-16-01 Was to be cut back to Court Square at all times to make room for the new V train when the connection opened, but due to rider opposition, it was cut back only weekdays until 8:30 pm, and extended to Continental all other times (the reverse of the previous pattern)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope the above data was helpful.
Didn't mean to sound harsh, so please condone my verbiage.
;-) Sparky
Let's see we have "#4 Sea Beach Fred", and now "G Train Sparky".
Seriously though, I seem to remember in the early 90's having the G Train terminate at Court Square on the weekends, around the time when the connection to Ely Ave was first opened. I had been on a few of the G's that terminated there. I didn't use the G all that much back then, but definitely remember the terminal there though a few times when I was going from the L to the Queens Blvd line. I don't know how long it lasted though.
>>>"and now "G Train Sparky".<<<
Chris,
For those on this board for sometime know, I don't buy that
single letter poob, if it's Fred's #4, it's "Sparky's GG".
;-) Sparky
I think G's were still terminating at Queens Plaza off hours unless they shortened it to Court Sq for that time period. I don't mean to insult G riders but you guys always seem to get stuck with lousy terminals, bad transfer points LIKE Court Sq [yes I know they have people movers], they have ugly stations, 4 cars at all times and you get cheated out of a direct 1 seat ride to the 4 Av transfer.
Do you guys agree/disagree?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
The Moronic Transportation as far back as 1990, studied a proposal to build a new tunnel from Court Square, to a lower level of Queens Plaza station. Instead, like the Transit Authority tried to kill the Franklin Ave Shuttle (big mistake), they are STILL trying to find ways to close the G crosstown. So G riders suffer at the expense of the V riders (less people use that line than the Franklin Shuttle.)
Don't you see how all this ties together. The MTA has a pro Manhattan anti Brooklyn/Queens bias. The needs of Manhattan come first and always have. In Manhattan, they use the express tracks where available most of the day to provide fast service for those people but in the outer boroughs, after 6 PM other than on the A/C line, there is hardly any express service. On weekends, there is express service in Manhattan, none in Brooklyn (other than the A/C line)...service is branched off in Brooklyn so that if there is a combined 5 minute headway in Manhattan on the 2/3, there is a 10 minute headway in Brooklyn on the Flatbush and New Lots branches.
G riders don't count...the trains don't go into Manhattan. So terminate the train at Smith 9th Street...to hell with the pax who wish to make the transfer at 4th Avenue. So make them wait for the next F train or if they are travelling in the other direction make them wait for an F tran to go 1 xtop to switch to the G. After all, these are Brooklyn people, not the rich ones who live in Manhattan.
Why isn't there Brighton Express service on weekends?? Why arent't the express tracks on the various Bronx lines used on weekends? They are in Manhattan. Why haven't they been able to use the wisely built express tracks on the F line between Jay St. and Church Avenue which would save Brooklyn commuters 5 to 6 minutes of commute time; of course becaus they live in Brooklyn.
The facts are as plain as the nose on any of our faces. In the planning the MTA does, Manhattan and its needs comes first. The other boroughs get the left overs. The facts speak for themselves.
Jeff, there is express service on the N line on weekends in Brooklyn. That is you have to catch the N first, and it takes THREE trains to do this (Q over the bridge, transfer to W and R at DeadKalb, then transfer again at Pacific St.)
Don't you see how all this ties together. The MTA has a pro Manhattan anti Brooklyn/Queens bias. The needs of Manhattan come first and always have. In Manhattan, they use the express tracks where available most of the day to provide fast service for those people but in the outer boroughs, after 6 PM other than on the A/C line, there is hardly any express service. On weekends, there is express service in Manhattan, none in Brooklyn (other than the A/C line)
After all, these are Brooklyn people, not the rich ones who live in Manhattan
While what you say has some truth to it, you have to remember that Manhattan is the place where most of the people from the outer boroughs are going when they take the subway. I don't live in Manhattan, but when I come to Manhattan, I do benefit from the express service that is there. For example, a passenger coming from the Bronx, let's say Mt Eden Ave/Jerome (4) bound for lower Manhattan, benefits from the express run down Lexington Ave to get them to let's say Wall Street. It's not just the so called "rich" people in Manhattan that benefit from the express service in Manhattan.
G riders don't count...the trains don't go into Manhattan. So terminate the train at Smith 9th Street...to hell with the pax who wish to make the transfer at 4th Avenue.
I agree the G should terminate at Church, and agree that it sucks that the G doesn't go to at least Queens Plaza, but there is no way to let the G terminate at Queens Plaza with the V there. As for Smith-9th, well that's just dumb. However, there is nothing that can be done about the G not going to Manhattan, that's the way the line was built in the 30's.
Why isn't there Brighton Express service on weekends?? Why arent't the express tracks on the various Bronx lines used on weekends?
The Brighton would benefit from weekend express service, so we agree there.
As for the Bronx, I don't think passenger levels warrant it.
They are in Manhattan.
Well, again, everyone benefits from that. Where are all the Brooklyn and Bronx trains going - Manhattan. The passenger levels warrant the express service, and the Brooklyn and bronx riders benefit from that as well as the manhattan residents.
Why haven't they been able to use the wisely built express tracks on the F line between Jay St. and Church Avenue which would save Brooklyn commuters 5 to 6 minutes of commute time; of course becaus they live in Brooklyn.
Currently in the capital plan, money has been provided to fix the Bergen interlocking that was damaged a few years back by a fire. It is currently not possible to run express service there, until that is repaired. Switches must be hand thrown right now.
However, in the past when they did try to run express service there, the BRooklyn areas of Park Slope and Carroll gardens complained because they actually lost direct Manhattan service when the G was the only local service there (when it did run to Church), and the F skipped the local stations. The only way express service would be viable there is if the V was extended to Church along with the G. The V would pick up the lost F service, allowing the local stations to keep direct Manhattan service, otherwise all of those people would have to use the stairs at Bergen to transfer from the local G to the express F. They did have a valid complaint. Just the fact that the Bergen Interlocking repair is in the Capital Program shows that the MTA has some idea of using those express tracks in the future.
What a rant! But it's good to advocate for better borough service.
Still:
The N does run express on the weekend.
Queens does not support your complaint. Your complaint is more pertinent to the Bronx and Brooklyn. The E and F run express in Queens.
"Why haven't they been able to use the wisely built express tracks on the F line between Jay St. and Church Avenue which would save Brooklyn commuters 5 to 6 minutes of commute time; of course becaus they live in Brooklyn. "
Would these be the tracks affected by the Bergen Tower fire? If so, you already know the answer. The contract has been let to rebuild the interlocking. Be patient and let that happen. Then you'll get your express service back.
I don't think the TA is as biased as you think it is. However, I agree that there is room for more Bronx and Brooklyn Express service.
And don't forget that full express service over the Manny B will resume in 2004.
The E and F run express in Queens
Oh, nonsense. Express service in Manhattan benefits the other boroughs most of all. Do you think I enjoy standing at my local station watching empty express after empty express pass by? If the TA's motives were as you claim, there would be no Manhattan express service on weekends.
Why is there no Bronx express or Brighton express on weekends? Because if there were express service on those lines, passengers at local stations would have to wait twice as long for a train.
Per capita, Manhattan actually gets the worst service. Where are trains crowded on weekends? In Manhattan.
Also the flat fare structure favors riders from the outer boroughs. Since most Manhattan riders take their trips within that borough, their cost/distance ratio is higher than someone coming in from South Brooklyn, the north Bronx or south-central Queens (Of course, if the MTA went to a fare structure that raised fares according to distance traveled, like WMATA or BART, the politicians in office would be strung up from the highest lampposts in those three boroughs, so a distance-based Metrocard system is likely a very long way off).
It is impossible, given the volume, to administer a zone fare structure on the NYC subway. I have been to London and one of the reasons for the zone fare structure is to pay for the administration of it what with tickets being inserted on entrance and exit and in many stations without the automatic turnstiles having personnel collect and check on the spot tickets. If they had any brains they would go to a flat one fare system and would find they would probably save money.
And it is inherently unfair. If you travel 2 stops on the Picadilly line from Barons Court to Glouester Rd. it costs you a zone 2 to zone 1 ride while if you travel from Earls Court to Tower Hill, a far far further distance, you pay for a zone 1 ticket. Similar stupidities would occur on the NYC subway...would they charge you for two zones to travel from Borough Hall Brooklyn to Bowling Green, yet charge you for one zone to travel from Bowling Green to 149th Street? And the personnel needed to administer such a system and the difficulties in purchasing tickets.
It will never happen.
I don't think it will happen, either, but more for political reasons than technological ones. Washington D.C. has the assanine zone fare system on its cabs, but WMATA incrases its fared based on the computer determining the entrance point on the system, for which cost X is set to travel to any other station on the system, a cost which is adjusted based on rush hour and non-rush hour times.
New York certainly would have more problems than D.C. implementing the system -- A rider on the G train going from Court Square to Bergen might see a sudden jump in his Metrocard fare at the last stop, because of the fare structure of the F train running between 23rd-Ely and Bergen -- the trip on the G would be shorter, but because both trains start and end at the same point, the fare would have to be the same while at the same time gradually increasing on the F as it makes its way from Queens to Manhattan and then into Brooklyn.
There would be other oddities as well -- what do you charge for a fare from Kew Gardens to B'way Junction/East New York via transfer from the E to the J at Sutphin Boulevard, compaired to a trip from Kew Gardens to, say, Utica Ave. via the E and A trains? The fare could go up going towards Utica on the A via Manhattan, and then go back down again when you get to B'way Junction.
That and other screwball situations would serve to further tick off riders. Manhattan residents might not care, since their fares might actually go down under a distance-based fare system, but given the number of voters in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens versus Manhattan, I think this is just going to remain a hypothetical problem for a long time.
Actually the #4 runs express in Bklyn to about 11:30pm on the weekdays and 10pm on the weekends.
The Moronic Transportation as far back as 1990, studied a proposal to build a new tunnel from Court Square, to a lower level of Queens Plaza station. Instead, like the Transit Authority tried to kill the Franklin Ave Shuttle (big mistake), they are STILL trying to find ways to close the G crosstown.
I find it rather hard to believe that the MTA actually wants to close the G.
They tried that, but community opposition stopped that demise, just like community opposition stoppped the Franklin Shuttle from being R.I.P. and the Moronic Transportation Authority decided to rebuild the shuttle to a beautiful and scenic line.
To the best of my knowledge, the TA never tried to kill G service. Opposition came from the survice being cut back to Court Square 24/7. As far back as I can remember, if we ever had to go down a train out of jamaica Yard, dropping a G train was never an option. G service ALWAYS had to be full.
Train Dude,
Considering your position in the TA, can you clarify something
I was told in the mid nineties, by a TA employee, when the crew room was built at Court Square. "Were there ever plans to }wall off{ the Crosstown Tracks East/North of Court Square and
transfer the line to Coney Island?" Or was this just plain scuttlebutt?
;-) Sparky
I doubt it. You need to send the G's to/from the yard. You need the connection in the event you re-route an F crosstown. The connection is needed for refuse, collector and work trains. You can't close off operational flexibility routes.
I don't see any reason in the world why they would or should, even if they cut back (G) service to Court Sq. permanently and made it a Coney Island-shopped line. It is good to always have as many ways open as possible even if they're not used in revenue service, and to physically cut it off would be a waste of money and capacity that would serve absolutely no purpose. There are still a number of non revenue connections that are very much alive, such as the connection between 6th Ave/Chrystie and the Williamsburgh Bridge.
:-) Andrew
Besides they use the sb (between qp and ct sq) as a layup track at certain times of the day.
Bill & Mr. K,
Thanks for the input, but you are both logistical and think wisely.
But remember, we are dealing with the NYCTA. "NO YOU CAN'T THINK
ANYBODY" division of the MTA.
Also, the person who discussed it with me is logistical, not a
rumor monger.
;-) Sparky
There was never plans to wall off the tracks. After all, why would you give up that flexibility. The G route is used by the F line when there is a service suspension in Manhattan. Besides, work trains use the line even when trains don't.
There was a plan - there still is, in fact, to supply the G line with 4-car R-68 units out of Coney Island. That still amy happen if the V is extended into Bklyn.
But the only con is that they reduced the shuttle to a mostly 1 track line. They should have at least built it to 4 car stations and 2 track at all stations, just like before b/c ridership is going up. By the way, is the SB 'local' track at Prospect Park still usable or not?
Franklin Av could have been a island platform instead of a extra wide side platform, Park Place could have been 2 side platforms and its ridiculous that a Franklin bound train has to wait at the Botanic Garden station for the next S to clear and its the same for Prospect Park bound trains.
Very true. I don't think they really thought about how much ridership has increased/can increase due to the fact that the Franklin shuttle is a pleasant line to use now. After the rebuild, capacity has been severely diminished on the line, while ridership has increased.
If you're talking about the Malbone track, yes, it is usable, but they choose to use it only for non-revenue moves.
wayne
It is also used during G.O.s when they work ont he track they usually use.
It is also used during G.O.s when they work on the track they usually use.
It was used for a midday GO for a few days in 2001, when the NB platform was closed for rehab work. (NB D/Q trains bypassed the station.)
I severely doubt the G was ever a target for abandonment. The Franlklin Shuttle was at one time, but community opposition did save that line. the G and the shuttle are two entirely different type of lines.
Nobody's trying to close the G train.
The E runs local at night. If the G is cut back to Court Square, the F would likely also run local at night.
I disagree with Chris, but just a bit. You were inconvenienced when the weekday G got cut back to Court Square, but your inconvenience is well within the bounds of inconvenience that is the de facto standard in the subway system. The long passageway that everyone is so fond of complaining about is much shorter than a number of much busier passageways, and you don't have to navigate intricate networks of ramps or pass through intermediate platforms.
Well, they got people movers at Court Sq but I still think its inconvenient but you're right, there are WORSE connections like:
4 Av/9 St(so much stairs and its dark, dirty, not really maintained)
Times Sq(going from the B'way line to the 8 Av line)
14 St(going from the 6 Av line to 7 Av)
Atlantic Av/Pacific St(especially since it was reconfigured and now there are more stairs from the Q to the M,N,R,W)
How about the stairs from Roosevelt Ave. (IND) up to 74th Broadway #7)?
WRONG!!! The G used to run to 179 St via local to replace the F in the late nights when the F only used to 21 St-Queensbridge to replace the B(when it used to go there when orange Q's did not run evenings, weekends and holidays).
In other words, when the Q didn't run, the B replaces it to 21 St when it did not run to 168 St(later 145 when the northern terminals switched w/the C). When the B was a shuttle in the nights, the F went only to 21 until the MTA got smart and put a shuttle btw 2 Av and 21 St and extended F's all times to 179.
At one time, G's terminated at Queens Plaza all times except weekdays before 10pm, when it went to 71 Av, NOW its the opposite except it goes to Court Square on weekdays when the V runs.
"ChrisR27-R30", If you have older subway maps, probably around 1996 or 1997 with strip maps see for yourself. That should help.
Flatbush 41,
Thanks for the clarification of (G) AKA "GG" services in the
mid nineties.
"GG" back on QB 24/7.
;-) Sparky
Yes, I was aware of past services. However, service prior to 12/16/01 had G trains running only to Court Sq.
I was referring to midnight service. The G never ran past Court Sq. prior to the introduction of the V.
Besides, G riders have not been inconvenienced beyond the reduction of train lengths to 4 cars, despite their crying in the media.
Besides, G riders have not been inconvenienced beyond the reduction of train lengths to 4 cars, despite their crying in the media.
4 cars is really not enough during a period of about 1 hour, but other than that, you are right.
Then again, the "V" train doesn't deserve to be 600' long either. And the Q definately doesn't deserve to be extended to queens.
4 cars is really not enough during a period of about 1 hour, but other than that, you are right.
They really need to restore the 450' trains on the G ASAP.
Then again, the "V" train doesn't deserve to be 600' long either.
Perhaps the V should be made up of 8 car R32 trains. That would free up some cars without cutting service anywhere.
And the Q definately doesn't deserve to be extended to queens.
Nobody was suggesting that. We were merely looking for night time services which could be cut to pay for extra Q trains so they could run local at night, increasing service on Broadway.
Oh no, don't do that!!! As a Brighton rider who has taken Q (and before that the D) many times during late nights, turning the Q into a four-car, R-68, Manhattan local would be a catastrophe. On several occasions that train resembled a rush-hour train in the middle of the night, PARTICULARLY during Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. It's arguably the most used Broadway train during late nights. From what I've seen, only the 1 and 2 trains (in Manhattan) are more crowded than the Q during late nights. Do this and Brighton riders would go beserk.
A 6 minute headway is what would be adequate until about 11 PM when it could expand to 8 minutes and at midnight perhaps 10 minutes...
That's too much service. 8 minute headways equal the C/M lines, and 10 equals the G line during rush hour. There's no way that a late night train line needs 6tph.
Trains every 15 minutes would be cool, and require only 1tph extra. But with service cuts coming, I can't see this happening.
I agree. Extension of the V to Church Ave will probably happen within the decade. I'm still shocked that there has never been more demand for using the express tracks (while adressing that there needs to be more than the G line providing local service). The ride from Ave. X to 34th St. is a bitch.
After the Culver connection opened in 1954, they never used the express tracks despite the ability to extend both D and F trains into Brooklyn. Had not so much money been wasted on the eastern division component of the Chrystie St. connection, the "KK" designation might have been used for a Church Ave/57th St. rush hour local as far back as 1968.
You're right about the MTA considering extending the V into Brooklyn. I sent the MTA a letter about it (among other things) and they replied that V into Brooklyn option was being considered. As ZMan179 tells it though, it would be very inconvenient to run the V local and the F express south of Church during rush and have the G terminate at Church. I gotta admit that he was right on this. I now believe that we're probably better off having both the G and V terminate at Church Av during most of the day (including rush) and have the F make all stops south of Church Av.
>>>"As ZMan179 tells it though, it would be very inconvenient to run the V local and the F express south of Church during rush and have the G terminate at Church."<<<
Why not reverse the express portion south of Church Avenue and
have the "V" as the Smith Street~Culver Express to Kings Highway.
The "V" doesn't run 24/7, neither would the Brooklyn Express.
Ends the confusion as the "F" is local in Brooklyn 24/7 to C.I.
and "G" AKA "GG" goes to Church Avenue at all times.
What you think about that? Chime In.
;-) Sparky
That's not a bad idea. The ZMan though stated that the way Church Ave is laid out, only one tower operator could operate the switches. From what he tells me, that poor person would have to help turn around G trains AND work the switches at Ditmas. Even with a V express to Kings Hwy this would still be a problem. Having both locals terminate at Church makes life easier for the tower operator. They would only have to worry about turning trains around. The switches at Ditmas would be set.
I favor the F as the Culver Express only because it runs to Coney Island normally. It would be more convenient for those heading south of Church to have a quicker one seat ride on the express. I've also noticed that while there is ridership south of Church, it's probably not enough to run an express south of Church. NORTH of Church however, I believe it's justified. As for the level of confusion, all passengers would have to remember is that if it's not late at night, the F runs express between Bergen and Church. That's a little less confusing than having a V run express in one direction south of Church and two directions north of Church.
"Something that can be done before 2004 is to provide adequate service on the F line by repairing the Bergen junction or whatever it is called (can't be that expensive) and to take advantage of the express tracks that were built when it was conceived that the purpose of subways was to provide adequate and fast transportation for the people of the city."
I agree. I have to go through the torture of riding from 18 Av to Jay St via local EVERY DAY! For example, this morning around 7:30, I'm going to school, I missed a F so I wait about 7 minutes until a next one comes. The ride is smooth until we get held at 4 Av for about 5 minutes, then again at Smith and guess what.. the F I missed is right in front of us(a G was btw the 2 F's). Its ridiculous, my trip took about 30-35 minutes when it should have took 20 or 25.
The Bergen interlockings got damaged what 3 YEARS ago. It should/could have been done already. The MTA is inconsistent with their projects b/c look a how fast the tunnel from South Ferry to Rector St was completed(about 7 months around the clock), plus look at how fast they completely rebuilt Rector.
Back to the F, what kind of terminal is Smith-9 for the G? It's just awful, the station is in sorry shape, 4 Av needs a touch up itself and this train only blocks the chance for a consistent F express(especially Av X bound). Look at how much room is at Church Av, the G could very well terminate there. It could start from Kings Hwy and switch at 4 Av in the peak direction until the interlockings are fixed.
This is what they could do in the meantime:
F: All trains to/from Kings Hwy should run local in Brooklyn then regular route(local in Manhattan, express in Queens)
All trains to/from Av X could run express from Kings Hwy to 4 Av then switch to local
G: All trains go to Church Av weekdays(possibly weekends) except nights, wher it could terminate at Smith-9.
What do you guys think?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
R46 6230(F)
"Its ridiculous, my trip took about 30-35 minutes when it should have took 20 or 25."
But what you describe isn't because the F was local. It's because the F didn't come in 5 minutes at most as would be expected by a train running at 12 tph, and then got held for reasons that shouldn't be either.
If you had a train reliably every 5 minutes, and it kept on moving, you would still benefit from an express, but you'd have a lot less to complain about.
Ok, I wasn't too clear on what I was saying. Yes, the F took longer than it should have but I'm saying that this happens constantly and it does get ridiculously crowded sometimes. Recently, I rode the F and the car I rode in was near a crush load and this was a R46 train and I believe this was on schedule.
The G's moronic terminal at Smith-9 and the damage of the Bergen interlocking just kills a full Culver express[Jay St-Kings Hwy] and when G's switch to the local, this adds time, as well as crowds at 4 Av since it cannot enter the station w/o waiting for G's to clear and more people come from the M/R.
Right now, it is not possible for the peak direction service on the Culver line to be implemented. Either Kings Hwy trains would have to run express, or Locals would have to go into service at Av X (at least northbound, southbound trains would have to skip Ditmas Av.
I give credit to "NX" opps! I mean Sea Beach Fred. Perhaps when the Stillwell reconstruction is complete in 2004, Fred can petition to the MTA in bringing back to short lived NX super express line, riot gear not included.
I don't think you understand that I have zilch influence with the TA. In fact, in 2004 they will probably put a roadblock up to keep me from coming to town---especially if the Sea Beach is still in that underground rat hole.
You mean ... you mean ... you didn't get the RNC to fix the subways? Then everything I heard about the plans for the Sea Beach next year will come true. As a Brighton boy, even I can't stand for what's to come. Tell me it ain't so ... tell me that the RNC isn't going to stop the landfill project along New Utrecht? The whole line from 8th avenue to Bay Parkway filled in with trash? Oh, the humanity, Oh the housing shortage for da rats. Oh well, folks can still get there on the W train. :)
Now you've really lit his fuse.... :-)
Uh-oh, now you've done it. Fred's blood pressure just went off the chart. Batten down the hatches!
Women and children off the street!
Keep talking Selkirk, it feels fine.
As Kevin would say, bustini, bustini.
Heh. Just checking to see if your screen's working. :)
In fact, in 2004 they will probably put a roadblock up to keep me from coming to town---especially if the Sea Beach is still in that underground rat hole.
I heard that sometime in 2003, they will 'roadblock' the N off the Manhattan bridge. The connection to the express tracks south of 59th st will be severed, (but bay ridge trains will retain their access) and all "N" trains will be forced to run local. They'll do it on a G.O. for a few months, and say that it's just a 'temporary arrangement', and oh, wait, this is what happened on the Culver line. My bad. Look at the bright side, you ain't been as screwed as the Culver line!
"Look at the bright side, you ain't been as screwed as the Culver line!"
The Culver Line may be forever relegated to a tunnel, but at least it's a tunnel that gets you to midtown quickly.
And F trains have the Rutgers tunnel all to themselves.
Good to hear from you J, hope you are getting along fine. Yes, I've heard the Culver got the royal shaft, but that doesn't give me any consolation because my train has been and is still getting the short end of the stick. Why? I have no idea. I used to float the idea that someone in the TA had it in for the Sea Beach, but I know ridership is down. I do believe, however, a faster trip would increase it somewhat. It takes forever on the N to get to Brooklyn because they have to traverse the bowels of Manhattan and that infamous Montague rat hole. An express over the bridge would certainly be a great step in the right direction.
My guess is that it will happen but only on weekdays from 7:00 AM to 7:30 PM.
Yeah, I can see the MTA doing that. From what I've seen in the past though, I think that Broadway/Sea Beach Express service could be extended to at least 9 PM, if the MTA has the money. If the MTA does a good job of selling the Broadway/Sea Beach Express as a legitimate option to Bay Ridge/Staten Island riders, I think you may find that route having decent ridership during evenings and weekends.
If that money was around, what I'd prefer to see would be it invested in expanded service on weekends during the summer, from Memorial Day to Labor Day, as follows:
Q Broadway Express/Brighton Express to Brighton Beach
W Astoria to Whitehall
N Broadway Express/Sea Beach to Coney Island
Essentially this means expanding mid-day week-day service to the weekend for 3-1/2 months per year.
Harry,
My fault, I totally missed this post; there's A LOT of messages on this thread. I think for summer weekends this is a good idea if the MTA had the money. Two questions though, would your N run express in Brooklyn and would it run to Astoria?
Les
No, I would have the West End train provide the express service on 4th Av. The N would run via bridge and terminate at 57th St.
Sorry for the delay on the response, I've haven't been near a computer lately. You would have only the West End (probably B) run as the 4th Ave Express. You'd have the N run local in Brooklyn but over the bridge and then express in Manhattan and terminate at 57th? Then you'd have the W run local between Ditmars and Whitehall? I don't know about this...
Terminating the N at 57 would make it very difficult for the Q to run as a Broadway Express on weekends to 179. I've also rode the W from Astoria a few times on the weekends. Many of the W riders seem to get off at either Lexington Ave, Times Square or Herald Square. I've also noticed that many of these riders tend to be a little younger. What I had in mind is to offer these riders a one seat express ride to Coney Island, via Broadway and 4th Ave Express. The N could then rip through the Sea Beach Line in about 12 minutes. Still, the N as a 4th Ave Local/Broadway Exp isn't a bad idea either. As for the W, I'm not too sure Broadway needs two weekend locals. If the R has short enough weekend headways, it may be enough...
Then again, I'm could be wrong.
Why is everyone intent on sending the Q to 179th?
This is some of my reasoning behind having a Q sent express to 179. For those who has already seen this argument, sorry for the repeat.
You can shoot me later.
The Q running as the third express on the Queens Blvd Line has many advantages:
(A) It offers its riders many convenient transfers at Times Square, Union Square, and Canal Street. This is something that neither the E nor F offers.
(B) It would be the only Queens Blvd route to run express in Manhattan. As we’ve seen, Queens riders favor express trains.
(C) It offers to reduce crowding at Lexington Av-53rd Street. A good chunk of the passengers at this station are coming from (or going to) lower Manhattan on the Lexington Line. For them, the only way to get the Queens Blvd Express, without walking long distances, is to use two other trains. With the Q running express in Queens, these passengers can get their Queens Blvd Express at Union Square.
(D) It offers Queens Blvd riders a relatively quick route into Downtown Brooklyn, particularly MetroTech. At DeKalb Ave, MetroTech is basically around the corner from the Willoughby exit.
(E) The Q running express all the way to 179 would save passengers heading to Eastern Queens and Long Island several minutes.
(F) It could potentially be a popular weekend/tourist option with its stops at Times Square, Herald Square, Union Square, Canal Street and on hot weekends, Brighton Beach.
(A) It offers its riders many convenient transfers at Times Square, Union Square, and Canal Street. This is something that neither the E nor F offers.
Let's consider each of these stations, and why these 'convinient xfers' are really unnecessary.
Times Square: A Q express would allow transfer to the 7th avenue IRT, as well as 7 and Shuttle service. 1. E trains serve 8th av, F trains serve 6th. There's no reason to transfer to an IRT 7th av train.
Union Square: The E/V offers connections to the 6, the F to the 4/5/6. If you're going to Union Sq. purely as a transfer, then you might as well transfer somewhere else.
Canal St: Doubt that there's a huge following for passengers who want to transfer here.
(B) It would be the only Queens Blvd route to run express in Manhattan. As we’ve seen, Queens riders favor express trains.
The key is express where?
(C) It offers to reduce crowding at Lexington Av-53rd Street. A good chunk of the passengers at this station are coming from (or going to) lower Manhattan on the Lexington Line. For them, the only way to get the Queens Blvd Express, without walking long distances, is to use two other trains. With the Q running express in Queens, these passengers can get their Queens Blvd Express at Union Square.
This seems pretty frivolous. "R" trains already serve an area close to 4/5 trains. Instead of encouraging these passengers to take a Lex. train, take a Broadway local instead.
For the record, Union Square seems to be a BAD place to try and get more riders to get on. Already too many delays there...
(D) It offers Queens Blvd riders a relatively quick route into Downtown Brooklyn, particularly MetroTech. At DeKalb Ave, MetroTech is basically around the corner from the Willoughby exit.
The F train stop is in MetroTech. DeKalb is far enough away that it just makes more sense to take the F. Downtown Bklyn is an area I know.
(E) The Q running express all the way to 179 would save passengers heading to Eastern Queens and Long Island several minutes.
I don't see how this justifies adding service where it is presently unused (the R train). At best, you could say route some E trains there, but not the Q.
(F) It could potentially be a popular weekend/tourist option with its stops at Times Square, Herald Square, Union Square, Canal Street and on hot weekends, Brighton Beach.
Running it to Queens doesn't affect this.
You've made some good arguments. But there are some factors at work you've may have overlooked. Forgive me for this long post, but I needed to explain things in detail.
(A). The Transfers:
Times Square: "A Q express would allow transfer to the 7th avenue IRT, as well as 7 and Shuttle service. 1. E trains serve 8th av, F trains serve 6th. There's no reason to transfer to an IRT 7th av train."
You have a very good point here. I'm looking at it more from a convenience standpoint for riders heading to/from uptown. If I have a stop on Broadway-7th Ave north of 59 and I don't feel doing a lot of walking (which usually is the mood for most passengers), I can now take just two trains, instead of three. As a bonus, 57 Street-7 Ave is only one block from the Columbus Circle station. If I'm a Queens rider, I could now conceivably just take one train to Columbus Circle.
Union Square: "The E/V offers connections to the 6, the F to the 4/5/6. If you're going to Union Sq. purely as a transfer, then you might as well transfer somewhere else."
I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of Queens Blvd riders who are trying to get to lower Manhattan (which is a good portion of these riders). Lexington Avenue-53rd Street is seriously overcrowded and a VERY inconvenient transfer. Between riding up/down the very long escalator and in the case of heading downtown on the Lex, down a set of steps and up ANOTHER escalator; it takes about 3-5 minutes just to reach the other platform. If you think this is bad, try transferring during rush hours. The reputed Metrocard transfer between the F and the 4, 5, 6 is even worse than this. I believe there's like 3 sets of escalators just to get in/out of Lex-63 Street, followed by a three block walk south to the 60th Street exit on the Lex-59 station, followed by a walk up/down the stairs, and in the case of the 4, 5 ANOTHER long ride ride up/down the escalator. You could time this transfer with an hourglass. I think very few people even ATTEMPT to do this. The Union Square transfer is much more convenient. You're looking at a three minute (tops) transfer time there.
Canal St: "Doubt that there's a huge following for passengers who want to transfer here"
Not so fast. Canal Street offers another option for Queens riders who want to head to lower Manhattan but do not want to deal with the crowded Lex Av. line. The Nassau Line basically imitates the Lexington Av line in lower Manhattan. If enough riders pick up on this, you could conceivably have a busy transfer point here. The fact that the transfer is a only a short couple flights of stairs, helps.
B) Express where?... As I said before, 57 St-7 Ave is one block west of Columbus Circle. It also has a exit that is only 2 blocks north of 7th Ave-53 Street station. It's also in a corporate area. Times Square and Herald Square both sit in the middle of corporate areas. Union Square also is in a business area, though not nearly on the level as Times and Herald Squares. Then you have Canal Street, which is in the middle of Chinatown and its businesses. Finally you have DeKalb Ave with one of its exits on the edge of MetroTech. I'd say this Q express is going to some popular stops.
C) Lex-53 overcrowding: "This seems pretty frivolous. "R" trains already serve an area close to 4/5 trains. Instead of encouraging these passengers to take a Lex. train, take a Broadway local instead.
For the record, Union Square seems to be a BAD place to try and get more riders to get on. Already too many delays there..."
Trust me, this isn't frivolous. The R train is probably the slowest train in the entire system. That's why it's not nearly as crowded during rush hours as other trains. Queens riders (like other riders) love express service. As for Union Square being a big delay area, heck the whole Lexington Line is one big delay during rush hours. There are also other options, particularly the underused Nassau Line. With a Q as a Queens Blvd Express, they could transfer to the B'way Local at either 14th, or get Nassau service (which also parallels Lex Av. Line) at Canal.
D) "The F train stop is in MetroTech. DeKalb is far enough away that it just makes more sense to take the F. Downtown Bklyn is an area I know."
From Queens the Q could probably get to MetroTech at least 5 minutes earlier than the F. I also know Downtown Bklyn pretty well. 4 MetroTech is basically around the corner from the Willoughby exit and connects with 3 MetroTech. There's another MetroTech building being completed that is 2 blocks north of the Willoughby exit. These three buildings I believe are closer to DeKalb's Willoughby exit than Jay Street. Unless you're looking for 1 MetroTech, there's at the very least an even trade-off between riding the F and riding the Q.
E) The Q to 179 Street argument: "I don't see how this justifies adding service where it is presently unused (the R train). At best, you could say route some E trains there, but not the Q."
Again, the R isn't very popular because it's a local and a very slow one at that. The E service going as an express to 179 is very irregular. The MTA may be better off just running the E to Jamaica Ctr.
F) Tourist option: My fault, bad wording on my part. What I should have said is that Queens Blvd riders could now get to all of these stops on a single relatively quick ride.
The N as the Broadway Express. For that I'd even concede to let the Sea Beach run local in Brooklyn. Good plan. Too bad you haven't a slither of influence with the TA, otherwise we would really be making some progress for a change.
Hey, we can always protest. Everyone else seems to be protesting SOMETHING these days, usually with good reasons. As long as you promise not to go medieval (or worse, Montague Tunnel) on the MTA bosses, everything should be fine.
Those are some good points, Les. I was assuming here that the TA would be terminating the Q at 57th. But, if it does get extended to Jamaica, given the reasons you've presented along with your plan, the N could not terminate at 57th. I have no direct knowledge of my own on this, only what other Subtalkers have posted, but it seems that Broadway could use two locals (in Manhattan) even on weekends whether these be the R and the W or N and R doesn't matter much.
On a scaled-back, tight-budget plan Harry, the N probably should terminate at 57. At the rate the economy is going, that's going to be in the MTA's future.
I've used the Broadway line many times on the weekends. From what I've seen, I'm about 80% convinced that if the weekend B'way Local has short headways (about 6-8 minute headways), you can get away with having only one Broadway Local.
Isn't it true that if you say "this line is less used so we'll cut its service", this tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the reduced service will lead to its being even less used, thus proving you right? Then when the Manhattan Bridge and Stillwell Avenue are fixed, you will find it's a struggle to get the patronage back again (it's always harder to get customers back once you've lost 'em than it is to to keep 'em), so the service will tend to remain lower than on the other routes to Coney Island.
"Isn't it true that if you say "this line is less used so we'll cut its service", this tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the reduced service will lead to its being even less used, thus proving you right?"
This is true only to a very limited degree. The N in rush hour has trains every 8 minutes. If the N is your most convenient line, you're not going to go out of your way to the West End or Culver Line to save a minute of waiting time plus the few minutes to change at Pacific or DeKalb, unless one of those other lines is almost exactly as convenient for you. But the Sea beach goes through the least dense areas of south Brooklyn, so for most people another line is more convenient no matter what goes over the bridge.
So if you ran N trains over the bridge, yes you'd probably get a few more people before Pacific, but probably not more than one train's worth. Of course, at Pacific and DeKalb, they'd fill up just because they would now be bridge trains rather than tunnel trains, but that's not really relevant to this discussion.
Given that not all Coney Island originating trains can go over the bridge right now, by making the Sea Beach the only Coney Island line with no quick direct route to midtown, they've inconvenienced the least number of people, because no matter how you configure the trains the Sea Beach has fewer riders than the Brighton, Culver, or West End.
Hopefully once the bridge reopens fully, NYCT wil realize that N riders come from far enough away that they deserve the quick route to midtown without a change at DeKalb. But there's no reason to expect that to significantly change ridership on the Sea Beach portion of the trip.
That's what this board is here for. Since no plans have been set in concrete, there's plenty of room to speculate.
True, but my points are (a) what's left to say, and (b) if someone insists on saying something, why not use one of the many, MANY recent threads instead of starting a new one?
David
Right QT7, that's what I have been saying since the cows left the barn. Maybe someone out there is listening to us.
The bad news is that TA still hasn't came up 2004 Manny B plan yet, which N service to/from brooklyn via bridge or tunnel still remain ?????? But I still keep my fingers cross for N TOOOO BEEE RETURN TO THE BRIGE.
Good for you Eddie Express, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Now what kind of influence have you with the TA? Or are you just like me, out of the loop and just hoping they do something right for my favorite line? I would have said something right for a change, but my Subtalk buddy Train Dude works for the TA and I value his friendship and know that he one guy I do not want to piss off.
Well Fred, to be honest with you, I don't work with TA. And I guess you can say that I'm just like you hoping that TA will do better thing for Sea Beach Line because I feel that the SEA BEACH line itself deserve best, Why I think Sea beach deserves best? Sea beach line is the only NYCT reliable line that make my commute a better and confortable ride...The ridership is great, its not overcrowded and less crowded. The line always arrives at my home station (Canal Street) and at my school station (57th Street) on time with very less delay (depends on the R).
Express, it's always good to hear someone say something positive about my train. I'm getting the impression there are more Sea Beach fans on Subtalk that I previously thought. Think, though, how much quicker it could be if they went over the bridge and avoided that vermin infested rathole of the Montague Tunnel.
If you look at the map you'll see the big difference in number of stops between Prince Street and Dekalb Ave on MannyB route and tunnel route.
On MannyB route, the stop u have go through between Prince and Dekalb is Canal....That one stop only
On the tunnel route, the stops u have go through between Prince and Dekalb is Canal, City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, Whitehall, Court, Lawrence..Now that 7 stops.
You will also see the difference when u counted the minutes on the arrival and departing on each stations plus the min from some jerks who decide to hold the door forcing Conductor to hold the train. Add that to the top, u now can tell how much quicker it could be if they went over the bridge and avoided that vermin infested rathole of the Montague Tunnel.
Thanks Express. That is as succinct as can be said. It ought to end all arguments that going through that rathole is just as quick as going over the bridge. However, five will get you ten that there will be a few numnuts who will insists there is not difference in time. God protect us from small minds.
In addition to my comments on my post I must informed TA that THE SEA BEACH N LINE should belong to where its supposed to belong to..."THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE!"..."NOT THE RAT INFESTED MONTAGUE STREET TUNNEL!"
We have to get together the next time I come to New York. I have got to buy you a drink====or two or three. You've made a friend.
Well, my man fred, that is the moment I've been waiting for. Sorry to reply to you for so long. I still kickin up with school. Yeah, defintely we should get together. Thanks for the awesome comment. No wonder why you're one of my favorite subtalk colleage :) I like the way how u express ur thoughts here on this board.
Thank you Express---and I meant every word of it. Maybe when I come to New York again next spring we can touch base. I have railfanned with a bunch of Subtalkers, including my buddies Brighton Express Bob, Marty Siegal, Newkirk and Doug Wengeroff, among many others who I hope I didn;t offend by not mentioning their names. You school work does come first, so no apology needed. The fact is, I don't think I have more than a couple of people on Subtalk who I am at odds with and that is amazing in a way because I'm sure some of them might get a little tired of hearing me sing praises to the Sea Beach. But I guess they are used to it by now and take all my rantings about my train with a grain of salt.
Good idea, 1 flaw: the W running to Bay Ridge would be redundant. Look for it to run to Whitehall St. only
Would it be better if both side of Manny B have brighton and west end service at the same time
B (WestEnd) and D (Brighton) on Northside
W (WestEnd) and Q (Brighton) and N (Sea Beach) on Southside
M is run via Sea Beach
R is full time to/from Manhattan (via tunnel) and regular hours to/from QB
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Service on NorthSide Manhattan Bridge:
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
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Service on SouthSide Manhattan Bridge:
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (via West End).
[Evening] - Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 9th Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Nights/Weekends]: No Service, Use B for service to/from Brooklyn, Use R for service to/from Manhattan and N for service to/from Queens. Transfer between B N and R at 36th Street, Brooklyn.
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Service on the Tunnel:
*R Train: Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
* means service to be increased during late nite hours.
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening until 10 PM] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 86 Street Gravesend, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn. Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
Fred, I know that's you. How did you get John Qtraindash7's password?
Sounds like me, doesn't it? Well, maybe I have some supporters backing my play after all.
i believe we should get rid of the W and Q express and make the N resume to Astoria on nights and weekends the B and D could run the 6 ave Express and we could have one train on the broadway express which could be the Q train. It will run express all times on the brighton line and then it could go from DeKalb Ave. to Canal St. i believe thats the most like ly possibility.
'we could have one train on the broadway express which could be the Q train.'
strike that i think there should be 2 broadway expresses the Q and N
trains and i believe the R should run through the Montague St. tunnel but it all depends on the amount of people who use the downtown local N,R track is there anyway possible that the n train coul switch tracks at canal st to go express on the bway track JUST A THOUGHT!
i kinda like the N going local its seems much more a pleasant ride though
I don't get it: Isn't the plan as follows, according to the ERC {east river crossings} study for when the bridge is fully open?
B: Bronx-6th-Bridge-West End
D: Bronx-6th-Bridge-Brighton Lcl
N: Astoria-Bway-Bridge-Sea Beach
Q: 57-Bway-Bridge-Brighton Exp
R: same
W: replaces old diamond N, Astoria-Bway lcl-Whitehall
D, N, and R run full time, full length. B ends at either 36th or Pacific late nights. The part I'm not sure about is if they were willing to sacrifice balance on the bridge to run one less train into Manhattan at night, in which case the R would stay in Bklyn and the N would run through the tunnel and up the Bway line.
I remember reading this and it makes so much sense. So why are people pretending this ERC plan doesn't exist?
"I remember reading this and it makes so much sense. So why are people pretending this ERC plan doesn't exist?"
Maybe because the rest of us don't remember reading it and don't know it exists. It's not under Planning Studies on the MTA web site. Also, at least one NYCT employee says that no final decisions have been made.
Wither the V?
F and V are unaffected; they'd be the way they are now.
That's not the ERC plan I saw, unless they've updated it. TSM-O: Bridge fully open without Rutgers and other construction, kept the Q on 6th Av. via 63rd., and had the T running over the Bway side with the N and via West End with the B. (The M also goes to 95th) You can see the plans here.
All of this reflected the time when it seemd the Q was fixed to 6th Av. forever, and the W hadn't become the Bway-West end, so it would need to be updated, and if it was, please tell us.
"You can see the plans here."
This is very interesting. However, this is some aol-based site with zero indication that I could find of the source of the information. Is this MTA-based, or a private study? If it's a private study, its connection to reality may be extremely tenuous.
That's my site, and I copied the info from the actual ERC report that was given out at their last public meeting back in '97 (at 2WTC, and my last time up in one of the towers, BTW). (they were submitted by private consultants, but still this is what the MTA was seriously looking at)
The ERC had their own page, which I can't remember right now (though it didn't have much info regarding the plans, IIRC).
Transit planners seem to have painted themselves into a corner with the need for four Sixth Av services. The concept of the Chrystie St connection was to unite Broadway trains with no distinct northern terminals and Sixth Av ones with no unique southern ones. But once the Sixth Av line was extended to 57 St the damage was done. It seems unlikely that Brighton riders will give up one of their Sixth Av trains, or that the V will continue to turn around in the middle of nowhere at Second Av.
I see the Q replacing the V, with Broadway service more up in the air. Are two locals really needed and the future W turning around at Whitehall St? If the Chrystie St era is used as a model, the only change come 2004--other than the Q extended from 21 St to Queens Blvd--from pre July 22, 2001 operations is that the N should return to the Bridge.
Why do you think that Brighton riders prefer two 6th Avenue services over one 6th Avenue service and one Broadway service?
Broadway definitely needs more local service than just the R, both north and south of Canal Street. Where that local service goes north of 57th and south of Whitehall isn't critical, but Broadway BMT locals are crowded even on weekends.
Montague/Nassau Street service should be INCREASED if anything, not decreased, as your service proposal indicates. The "W" replaces the "N" as the Broadway Local, and runs Short Line to Whitehall.
wayne
The R would be increased.
How about:
TerminallineBrooklyn routepatternTPHSouth CrossingManhattanrouteManh.PatternNorth CrossingNorthRouteN
patternTerminalNotesConey IslandWest Endexpress12Manhattan Bridge AB6th Ave.expressCPWlocal145th/Bedford Pkeves&weekends to 145th?Coney IslandBrightonlocal10Manhattan Bridge AB6th Ave.expressConcourseexpress205th StConey IslandCulverexpress12Rutgers6th Avelocal63rdStQueensBlvdexp.-71st179thSt.Church Ave. Crosstownlocal Ct. Sq.non wkdys Smith/9th-QP95th St or Coney Is4thAve. or Brighton7MontagueNassaulocalWilliamsb BridgeMyrtleAve.LocalMetropolitanConey IslandSea Beachexpress10Manhattan Bridge HBroadwayexpress60thStAstoriaDitmars BlvdBrighton Beach Brightonexpress12Manhattan Bridge HBroadwayexpress57thSt663rdStQueens Blvd(peak)express-179th179thStQueens peak specialChurch AveCulverlocal15Rutgers6thAve.Local53rdSt.Queens Blvdlocal71st or 179th Steves&wknds to MetropolitanWhitehall or Bay Pkwy?BroadwayLocal60th St.AstoriaLocalDitmars Blvd=12TPH=15TPH
Yes, I would drink to this. My train is back where it belongs.
I also considered having it terminate at 57th, and letting only the cover Astoria. With both Q's using 57th now (really two services), it might be possible, and would insure it skipped 49th, and would be indentical to the original 1957-76 service.
Eric, that would be even better. Get on it and see what you can do. Contact Train Dude. He's the one friend I have at the TA and maybe he can browbeat those guys into accepting your plan. Anything to get the Sea Beach out of that Montague rat hole.
Fred, you got another supporter. I agree that it should be removed from that rat infested [well the system is full of rats], slow ass cramped tunnel and go back to where it belongs, the Manny-B, 3 services is too much for the Montague tunnel and I don't understand how trains travel so slow through it [usually goes no more than 25-30] if you have Missing, Never & Rarely. By the way, to Eric B, nice chart.
I'm sure it will, unless Sea Beach riders really want the tunnel, but I'm sure there are enough going to midtown and in the hearing to make it express in Bklyn again, the people all complained of the tunnel banishment since 1985.
I guess you didn't see http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=410974 (Re: 155th St. station...) where I mentioned a plan to put it on 6th Ave. and uptown if Rutgers is built. It would be bridge and express, but still vastly different than tradition. I wondered how you would react to such a tradeoff.
I doubt you will see the need for service to Metro Ave., especially on evenings and weekends. This line-up would also mean that you will be limited to 8 60' MU's for service.
We could sure use it, though it might take effort to get people to notice it, being people are so used to having next to nothing over here. (transferring several times, or just taking car service). Why should we stay cut off?
For a on weekends, (which they don't have now at all), 8×60 should suffice. They might even be treated by a few 143's.
I wonder if David knows whether they are even looking into this, since he says thay are simulating just about everything else that is possible.
Except for a few kinks in the details, very nice.
Not bad, and I like your presentation. Much easier to read than just listing it!
R+V can't exceed 20 tph max because of Continental's vagaries.
Besides, why would the R and V need such a massive increase in service?
I had increased the like that because the was removed from the tunnel. This all BTW, was based on the ERC plans, which did try to max out the allowable capacity. After I at the last minute added the option of sending the to Bay Pkwy, I realized that the wouldn't need that much.
Someone posted the url to this interesting site with plenty of photos on the LIRR forum of Railroad.net and I thought I'd share it with you all: http://www.mindspring.com/~jhdeasy/lirr/
Why did the LIRR buy all these cars and why did they retire them after such a short time?
The LIRR bought the cars because their parlor car service was very, very lucrative with all the rich-bitches going out to the Hamptons all the time.
Why didn't the cars last long? A few reasons, the main one is the fleet changeover in the early 1970's -- the older, heavyweight cars were becoming harder to maintain. Many were sidelined for lack of parts. Replacements came in the form of sleepers, etc., from NH, PRR, KCS, FEC, but these, too, were not in the greatest of mechanical condition and just didn't last. Plus, with the fares on the increase, and LIRR's service getting worse at the time, people were giving up on using the trains. They'd just drive out to the Hamptons...
I remember the days when you'd see two all-parlor trains head east on Fridays to Montauk, and three others that had parlor cars on them with the coaches. There was the "Advance Cannon Ball" which usually ran 4-6 cars -- then the "Cannon Ball" with 12-16 cars. And the parlor/coach trains had two or three parlors each!!
Besides... the Parlour cars were not all that comfortable anyway!
Besides service getting worse a bus company known as Hamptons Jitney was started at this time with service from Manhattan to the South Fork of Long Island. Their service starts on the Upper East Side of Manhattan so the people don't have to go to Penn and the service is more frequent.
Don't know when Sunrise Bus started their service from NYC to Greenport. But it is more frequent than the two trains a day the LIRR runs out there.
As long as people can afford to use gas guzzling SUV's, they can afford to pay additional tolls on roads and bridges to pay for the MTA budget shortfall.
and contribute to politicians who will raise fares, drill for unneeded oil, and degrade CAFE standards.
CAFE? Where you can enjoy a coffee or is it an acronym?
It is acronym for the EPA's fuel milage standards for motor vehicles. (Corporate Average Fuel Effiency) Each automaker has to ensure that the average MPG of the passenger cars they sell does not exceed a particular nomber. SUV's and Pickups are exempt. (Just more corporate corruption)
Gee, what a surprise. Thanks for the clear-up.
The tolls on the bridges are already too high. New York City is almost a series of islands and as cool as transit is people will still need to drive. Higher bridge tolls will only punish people for living in NYC and punish those simply passing through the city for whom transit is not an alternative. The goal should be that people will chose transit if transit is an option for their trip. If it is not they should be free to drive.
Better alternatives to accomplish this are: Stop all highway improvement projects. Eventually traffic will get so bad that those who can use transit will use transit.
Institute a manditory MetroCard purchase for all of those wishing to keep vehicles in certain parts of the city. The theory is that if you force all car owners to pre-buy a certain amount of transit, they will use transit as much as they can as they have already paid for it. If they still choose to drive, the Mandatory purchase acts as tax. Granted there would be some problems with resale and transfer.
Parking permits: The city owns the street then people should pay to park on them. This means everybody in a passenger vehicle, from one day visitors to year-round residents for areas of town with the worst traffic and the best transit. The date-range permits would need to be able to be obtained easily. Those simply passing through the city would not be charged. For those driving into certain parts of the city there would then be an unavoidable price for parking.
Okay, so how will emergancy services get around if the roads fall apart?
Probably the same way they do upstate - helicopter and Ski-Doo ... or they come around in the spring and sprinkle some water on the ashes. Not that I have any axes to grind, but the "rural way" is what America voted for, and shall have ... yeehah.
Institute a manditory MetroCard purchase for all of those wishing to keep vehicles in certain parts of the city. The theory is that if you force all car owners to pre-buy a certain amount of transit, they will use transit as much as they can as they have already paid for it. If they still choose to drive, the Mandatory purchase acts as tax. Granted there would be some problems with resale and transfer.
That's actually a pretty good idea. It makes more sense than higher bridge and tunnel tolls, which penalize people just passing through the city.
Why shouldn't we penalize people just passing through?
Actually, you've got a point there. Anyplace I need to get to near New York City has routes around the city, and Long Island? Well, no need to go there. :)
Actually it's the other way around. Why should we penalize the people driving into the city and theoretically spending money there and adding to the city's economy, and not just passing through.
Because anyone traveling TO NYC as a destination can and should use non-car transportation. You can fly into the airport, take Amtrak into Penn Station or park n ride from a commuter station.
People should not be penalized for passing through the city (any more than they already are) because they are paying a tax for services that will never benefit them. And because most cities do not have oppressive bridge tools the payents aren't even reciporical.
People passing through the city contribute to congestion in the city and to maintenance and other expenditures on city highways, bridges, and streets. Why should city residents be expected to foot the bill? Most city residents don't even have cars.
Due to geography the city has a monopoly on all surface routes between Long Island and the rest of the country. Like all monopolies the city needs some sort of reasonable regulation to keep from exploting consumers and thus harming society.
In every other example of bridges or toll roads that I can think of there are always cheaper, albeit slower alternatives. Like I can take the Tacony Palmyra bridge instead of the more expensive Betsy Ross. I can take I-80 instead of the Penna Tkp. I can take the Tappen Zee instead of any crossing through Manhattan. No consumer should be held hostage by a fluke of geography.
Nobody is being held hostage. Contrary to popular belief, it costs a lot to maintain a bridge or even a local street. Tolls should cover those costs -- no more, no less. Those Long Island residents who don't want to pay for the costs they incur on NYC streets can accomplish that by not incurring any costs on NYC streets: (a) move somewhere else and never go back; (b) stay on Long Island and don't travel anywhere else; or (c) take the LIRR and NJT, Metro-North, or Amtrak.
Without tolls, each time someone from Long Island cuts through Manhattan to get to New Jersey, I pay. Even though I haven't driven anywhere at all.
Nobody is being held hostage. Contrary to popular belief, it costs a lot to maintain a bridge or even a local street. Tolls should cover those costs -- no more, no less. Those Long Island residents who don't want to pay for the costs they incur on NYC streets can accomplish that by not incurring any costs on NYC streets: (a) move somewhere else and never go back; (b) stay on Long Island and don't travel anywhere else; or (c) take the LIRR and NJT, Metro-North, or Amtrak.
Now really. (a) and (b) are ridiculous, and (c) does not work in all circumstances.
I think he means that the LI'ers should pay tolls and not complain about it
They're not at all ridiculous. Anybody who lives on Long Island and regularly drives to New Jersey should know that that's an expensive trip. Conversely, anyone unable or unwilling to pay the price to drive between Long Island and New Jersey has no business driving between Long Island and New Jersey.
People move out of Manhattan because housing costs tend to be high. You're suggesting that nobody should move out of Long Island because transportation costs are high. Why shouldn't they?
Anybody who lives on Long Island and regularly drives to New Jersey should know that that's an expensive trip. Conversely, anyone unable or unwilling to pay the price to drive between Long Island and New Jersey has no business driving between Long Island and New Jersey.
Many people I know living on Long Island, and who worked at or near the World Trade Center before 9/11 had no problem getting to work before via the LIRR. After 9/11, a few of them saw their jobs move to Jersey City, or other places in New Jersey. They had to adjust because the commute became a nightmare.
One of them moved to Brooklyn to make the commute easier (subway to PATH). Two actually left their jobs to find more convenient jobs in the city. None of them expected to "drive for free" to New Jersey.
I had the opposite scenario. I had lived in New York City my entire life. I found a job on Long Island, so actually moved out of the city to make my commute easier. I could not see living in the city and commuting to Long Island (I was really thinking about moving anyway). But by making that choice I do not expect a free commute into Manhattan. Actually, I almost always use the Midtown tunnel anyway if I choose to drive (instead of the LIRR), instead of one of the "free" bridges. With EZPass it's convenient anyway. I however, would never live on Long island if I had to commute regularily to New Jersey.
I think that people commuting from Long Island to New Jersey are insane to have that arrangement, but it is their choice to have that nightmare, and expensive commute.
I think that people commuting from Long Island to New Jersey are insane to have that arrangement, but it is their choice to have that nightmare, and expensive commute.
It's not always a matter of choice as jobs do tend to relocate. Consider the people you mentioned, whose jobs went to New Jersey as a result of 9/11.
They're not at all ridiculous. Anybody who lives on Long Island and regularly drives to New Jersey should know that that's an expensive trip. Conversely, anyone unable or unwilling to pay the price to drive between Long Island and New Jersey has no business driving between Long Island and New Jersey.
People move out of Manhattan because housing costs tend to be high. You're suggesting that nobody should move out of Long Island because transportation costs are high. Why shouldn't they?
Moving is the sort of thing that's easier said that done. I've gathered from your postings that you're not married and don't own a house or apartment. Moving probably would be a lot easier for you than for a married homeowner, especially if he has a working wife and/or children in school. In addition, there might be other reasons why someone would want to live on Long Island, the intangibles that make places "liveable," notwithstanding high transportation costs.
It simply is not fair that Long Island residents are stuck paying high NYC tolls every time that want to go virtually anywhere else. There are no "just passing through" discounts on the bridges and tunnels. What I'd like to see are much lower tolls, or ideally no tolls at all, with significant costs for parking in Manhattan. That way, Long Islanders will have to pay for the privilege of driving to and parking in Manhattan, trips for which they could and should use transit, while not being penalized for wanting to drive anywhere else in the nation.
Well if that Oyster Bay Rye bridge got built, LI'ers would have more choices. Long Island itself is very isolated, only main ways out all go through NYC. That's part of the reason they had to shut down Shoreham.
Ideally, if I was married and had a job in Manhattan, if I lived in a suburb I'd choose New Jersey over LI anytime.
It simply is not fair that Long Island residents are stuck paying high NYC tolls every time that want to go virtually anywhere else.
Residents of Long Island have chosen to live there, and thus have chosen to live on an island requiring two river crossings to reach most of the rest of the United States. If Long Island is such a great place otherwise, then the people there should pay for its geography. Otherwise they can live on a cheaper geographical feature.
Unless you lived in your parents house until they die and you inherit it, you choose the house you own and where it is.
Peter, moving is probably the activity in life I detest most. I certainly never said it was easy. But face the facts: driving from Long Island to New Jersey is an expensive venture, and if you find it more expensive than you're willing or able to pay, then you're going to have to find some way to reduce those costs. I made three suggestions (change the origin, change the destination, and change the mode), and you objected to two of them. Feel free to put forth any other suggestions you come up with.
Wait, I think I have one: reduce those costs by having someone else pay them. Oh, wait, that's the status quo!
I don't mind bridge tolls in principle as bridges are expensive, require more than a bit of maintainence and are cool to drive over. Not only that I feel that it is fair to charge drivers on congested bridges more in order to then put more funds into direct transit alternatives. However there does reach a point where bridge tolls become excessive, especially if no transit alternatives exist. The MTA $7 toll is definitly in this category. Some of the MTA bridges, like the Triboro, aren't even grand enough to warrent anything close to $7.
If I were in charge of NYC tolls I would have the Hudson Crossing be $5, the Bayone be $4, the Gothels and Outer Bridge by $3, the Varizanno Narrows by $7, the Battery tunnel be $5, the midtown tunnel be $5, the Whitestone and Throgs Neck be $4. The bridges over Jamacia bay would be $1-2 and the Henery Hudson would be $2-3. I would consider making the Triboro free so that you could get anywhere in NYC w/o having to pay a bridge toll. If it did have a toll it would probably only be the suspension part.
Basically, the longer the bridge, the more you pay.
Gax and vehicle taxes already cover the vast majority of repair costs. Bridge and road tolls are always used as a cash cow for the rest of state of local entity that collects the taxes. When these tolls are seriously abused it becomes detrimental to society from an economic point of view.
Oops. Looks like you forgot about local streets, which generally aren't funded by gas taxes. (Vehicle taxes? What vehicle taxes?)
I have a car and I park it on city streets. My most recent gas purchase was for 9.496 gallons, and it was in New Jersey, at one of the popular gas stations on the GWB approach. I have about a quarter tank left. Forget about maintenance -- consider space alone. What is the value of the space my car has occupied for the past month and a half? (Compare to the rent charged by a private storage facilities, for cars or for other items.) Who has been paying for that space? (Not I, that much is clear.)
"Stop all highway improvement projects."
What improvement projects (as opposed to repairs) are going on in NYC?
I do like the mandatory metrocard and the street parking permits, though.
The theory is that if you force all car owners to pre-buy a certain amount of transit, they will use transit as much as they can as they have already paid for it
That is a very good point. It does not appear to be costing you as much if you don't stick your hand in your wllet and pull out money evrytime you take a ride
A better way to institute this program is to have EZ-PASS toll account electroically linked with metrocard accounts.
The way EZ-PASS automatic refilling works(credit card only) is that once your ballance falls down to less then certainthreshold they auotmtically refill you account to your average monthly ussage pattern for the past three months.
It is time that the MTA brings its spending in line with its revenues. The MTA spent millions installing metrocard. It is time that the riding public see's the econmies of schale that this sofisticated fare collection system brings.
Eliminate most token booth. Increase the retail network of 3rd party sellers. Institute automatic refilling subscription metrocards (transit center's transitchek already has this feature)
We are taling savings in excess of $200 million a year. That is 1/3 of the projected shortfall.
Stamps are now becoming available at ATMs. Why not Metrocards?
There was a time when you'd be able to buy tokens at banks....
Metrocards are already available at some ATM's
The availablity of metrocrds at other locations is pointless if token booths are not closed.
The MTA is holding a series of public meetings on whether it can close auxilary token booths
Auxilary token booths are those booths that are only open for part of the day. The current contract with station agents allowed the mta to close these booths and reassing personell to other job functions but the straphangers campaign sued the mta to have a puvlic hearing on the clossing of token booths
Make your voice herd. Cut the waste not the bus and train service
ok...I wasn't aware of that. Been living upstate way too long. I thought you could only get them in the station, either at the kiosks or the attended booth.
Many booths could be closed during off-peak hours, so long as someone with cash could get a ticket through other means, such as the kiosks. If the contract states that the staff must be reassigned to perform other tasks, that's even better since no one will lose their job because of the change. Where's the problem?
In addition metrocards are sold at news stands, super markets, drug stores, gas stations and the like. Most stations around the city have 24 hour newstands outside train stations.
The problem is that groups like the straphangers campaign and other advicitcy groups in New York need to justify their existings
It is common practice for them to oppose any change to anything. No what the change is. They often use misleading scare tactics and distort the truth.
The cuts that were opposes were to part time booths. Worst case senario the rider would have to crtoss the street and buy his/her metrocard at another entrance to the same station
Due to the configuration of local stops in manhattan, each local stop have a full time token booth in each direction and sometimes a part time booth in each direction
34th street herald square station had six different entrances each with a token booth.
The tolls on the bridges are already too high. New York City is almost a series of islands and as cool as transit is people will still need to drive.
Bridge tolls are NOT HIGH ENOUGH!
Or more to the point, the CBD should be CLOSED to private automobiles!
Elias
["Bridge tolls are NOT HIGH ENOUGH!"]
That's easy to say if you live in South Dakota!
Bridge tolls are NOT HIGH ENOUGH!
I'm with you, Elias... a couple of years ago I made a few posts suggesting that tolls be increased to $20 or more on the bridges and tunnels coming in from New Jersey at peak hours and that the money be used to fund the additional rail tunnels and associated capacity needed. The idea met with little enthusiasm here, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those simply passing through the city would not be charged.
For those 'passing-through' the darn well better be doing it via Staten Island or the Bronx... if they MUST pass through Manhattan.... SOAK THEM!
You state that the "city owns the street then people should pay to park on them." Let me get this straight. I pay NYC income, property and sales taxes. So I and other taxpayers already are paying the city to maintain the streets. Now you advocate making us pay twice for the use of these same streets. I have a house with a driveway, would I be exempt from this new permit system or would you put a parking meter in my backyard.
Don't forget the gas tax.
Most NYC households don't have cars. They pay income, property, and sales taxes too. Why should they be paying for on-street parking for the few who do?
The obvious thing to do is put a toll on all non-NY registered vehicles entering NY state. They don't get a vote :-D
By the U.S. Constitution in some cases, and legal precedent in others, it is difficult to impossible to restrict access to public transportation facilities (including highways), or charge different rates, based on the residence of the user.
True, but I think resident discounts have held up. SI residents get a discount on the Verrazano.
IT has held up in the case of staten island residents because the toll was structured as a two part too
A base toll and a MTA surcharge. Since at the time staten island had little MTA services it has held up. In addition many people outside of staten island had no idea that there was such a discount
A base toll and a MTA surcharge. Since at the time staten island had little MTA services it has held up.
If that's the basis, the issue could certainly be revisited. I believe the political issue is that it was part of the City's effort to keep Staten Island politically satisfied and part of the City, along the same lines as eliminating the ferry fare (which Bloomy is eyeing), eliminating the Dump, and making the SIRT virtually free.
On the financial side, the differential fare for Staten Islanders and Rockaways bridge users, seems to pass legal muster by a bit of arcane fiddling. In the case of Verrazano-Narrows, it is the theory that the amount above what Staten Islanders pay is really a surcharge. In the case of the Cross Bay Bridge, it's even more interesting. In effect, everyone pays the toll, but residents of the Rockaways and Broad Channel have the MTA pick up the toll on their behalf by transferring funds (approximately $2 million a year) from the MTA's "unencumbered funds" (we used to call these "slush funds") to the TBTA annually.
My point in these cases is, that if some group (like the AAA) mounted a serious lawsuit, calling these ploys fictions, they might not stand up.
Or to put it another way, every law is constitutional until someone challenges it.
Your crazy!!!
THe MTA wastes far more moenie and electricity the any SUV
Drivers in this city already pay far too much in taxes.
$0.50 or more a gallon on gas
and outragiously hight tolls on MTA controlled bridges all to fund the social wellfare program that is the MTA
THe following are cost saving cuts that would not harm the riding public.
1) Close 2/3 of all token booth. Metrocards are avialble from vending machines at all stations. If a rider is dead set on buying it for a token booth he/she can refill his/her card at a station that has a token booths clerk.
2)Shut the lights off in areas sealed off from the public at night such as part time fare controls.
This Idea that anyone who drives car is a "fat cat" on this board is completly obsured.
1. See my comments on BusTalk.
2. If it's OK with the New York Police Department, it's OK with me. Howzabout someone asks them?
David
$0.50 or more a gallon on gas
and outragiously hight tolls on MTA controlled bridges all to fund the social wellfare program that is the MTA
WRONG
Gasoline prices in this country are grossly subsidized! In Europe it is $3 or $4 a Gallon for guzzleoline... (most of that tax of course), but it is also most appropriate over here.
It SOAKS those who waste (by using a bigger car than needed) and rewards those who use more reasonible transport, alternate fuel, or public transport.
In any event... Infrastructure (highway, bridge, subway, and rail) is very expensive to maintain and operate. You can pay for it this way, or you can pay for it another way, but it must be paid for.
Elias
Yes the tax in europe is higher
The Tax in NY state aproaches $0.50 a gallon.
Thats a fact. And yes those who drive those monster SUV really hurts them in the pocket.
Pesonally I find those large SUV's a big waste of money. $40k for the interior comfort of a $15 car
Well it's all about being a "road terrorist". That's why most people drive SUV's.
Mostly females, want to feel "superior" to every car on the road, they like feeling higher than all the other cars.
And in my neck of the woods, BIGGER is BETTER to these people. I see Navigators,Suburbans, and the new H2 is popping up everywhere.
They claim they want to be safe from other SUV's, so they buy one of their one. Dog eat dog mentality at it's worst.
You should really consider having an "assectomy" ie: having your head removed from your ass.
Peace,
ANDEE
You should really consider having an "assectomy" ie: having your head removed from your ass.
I thought that was called a "rectocraniotomy".
Well it's all about being a "road terrorist". That's why most people drive SUV's.
Mostly females, want to feel "superior" to every car on the road, they like feeling higher than all the other cars.
And in my neck of the woods, BIGGER is BETTER to these people. I see Navigators,Suburbans, and the new H2 is popping up everywhere.
They claim they want to be safe from other SUV's, so they buy one of their one. Dog eat dog mentality at it's worst.
Not all SUV's are huge hulking monsters with horrible fuel economy. I have a fairly compact model, an Isuzu Rodeo, and its fuel economy is roughly the same as a midsixe car, ~20mpg in mostly nonhighway driving. There are other, even smaller models with equivalent or better economy, such as the Toyota RAV, Suzuki Vitara, and Ford Escape. Navigators and Suburbans are not representative of all SUV's.
Thing is, I never see people around here (in my area) driving compact SUV's. They all seem so big to me.
I guess it's just a regional thing. North Shore is big SUV country.
SUV's that are compact, and have good fuel economy is not what I'm against. Also I have no problem with people who actually use SUV's for their given purpose, usually as part of a job, or individually owned purpose.
The popularity of the H2, is beyond comprehension.
Well it's all about being a "road terrorist". That's why most people drive SUV's.
And in my neck of the woods, BIGGER is BETTER to these people. I see Navigators,Suburbans, and the new H2 is popping up everywhere.
Well, I don't know if that is entirely true. Although I do agree that Navigators, etc are like boats. I drive a Ford Explorer, I guess a medium size SUV. I drive it not because I want to rule the road, or be a "road terrorist"; I drive it because it is a really comfortable to drive. And gas milage on it is not really that bad. I used to have a car, and I really wouldn't want to go back to it. Although, I would never want an Expidition, Navigator, or some of those other huge ones. I don't think a chance to be a "road terrorist is the reason most people drive SUV's.
Pesonally I find those large SUV's a big waste of money. $40k for the interior comfort of a $15 car
In our fleet of cars (we have a nine car garage with four more cars parked at the curb) we have one SUV, (not counting farm trucks and tractors of course) which I like to drive, because I can fit into it without having to contort my tired body to twist itself into some miniature roller skate. I find it ver difficult to get into most (full size) American passenger cars.
That being said, there is no reason why a biger car cannot be made with more stability and fuel effeciency, or that a passenger car can not be built in a manner that allows for dignified access and egress, and forget the darned 'styling' that dictates such imposible vehicles.
Elias
I was a GMC Yukon gassing up today at the gas station. The meter said $60.00 and rising.
The people in Greenvale area are so fifthy rich and wasteful if makes me want to SCREAM. If it wasn't for Szechuan, I would never go to that area, the people disgust me. :-0
I was a GMC Yukon gassing up today at the gas station. The meter said $60.00 and rising.
So that Yukon has the optional huge fuel tank and its owner was pumping premium gas. What't the big deal? He doesn't need to stop for gas nearly as often.
As a comparison: my '96 Windstar has a 25 gallon fuel tank, which when totally full gives me a highway range of over 600 miles. At $1.40/gallon (current price for Sunoco regular at the station where I buy most of my gas) that means it costs $35 to fill my tank, or 5.83¢/mile at 24 mpg. I can drive all the way from our New Jersey house to our home in North Carolina (465 miles) and still have a quarter tank left. By contrast, my wife's '94 Mustang convertible (6 cyl., automatic - not one of those high-performance V-8 models) has a 15.3 gallon tank, which when totally full gives her a highway range of less than 400 miles - not enough to make the trip without stopping for gas. And her gas costs $1.62/gallon (Sunoco Ultra), so that 15.3 gallon tank costs $24.79, or 6.23¢/mile at 26 mpg. Smaller is not always better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So they don't pay $60 a week, because the tank doesn't use up all that gas within a week.
Now diesel buses must have HUGE tanks. I wonder how much they cost to fill up, and how long they take.
Here's a fair compromise, convert all large SUV's to CNG. :-0
i'm generally a pro transit guy, but parking tickets and the such have all recently been DOUBLED. $110 fine for not feeding the meter fast enough, etc? is there any other city in this country with such extreme fines?
I ain't a smoker neither, but $7 a pack? no more recycling? And now they want to close fire houses and raise the fares?
the real untold story is where this: just where was that aid money the feds promised? the headlines ought to read as follows: "Bush to NYC, Drop Dead"
The fact is that NYC has depened far too long on Wall Street for the majority of its tax revenue.
Instead of investing in eduucation and attrating new industies, NY has let the unions run amuck driving up cost and forcing many industries out of state.
The biggest discrase is the way the outer bouroughs have deteriated over the last 20 years. Instead of working to develope low cost commercial space where small compaines can plant roots, NY has forced inovative compaines espeially in the biotech area across the river to NJ in search of affortable space.
The biggest problem on our hand is our waste and energy problem. Community groups in semi industrial areas such as red hook take the city to court anytime a new factory or waste transfer station wants to set up in their area.
The fact of the mattter is NYC is a city with no majorities just a many groups of minorites (Itailians, columbian, jamacians, irishman) This legal issue of unfairly putting factories in minority areas does not hold any water in NYC any longer
...thing with trash is there is an easier way. If each truck that collected the trash simply stuffed the trash into a removable container already on the truck, it would be rather simple to have locations in each bourough to put the containers onto freight cars and send them on their way, without it being too smelly and digusting. Once the trash is in the container, it stays there until it gets to the landfill. Lord knows such 'intermodal' yards to swap out the containers could easily be built in industrial areas with rail access, along newtown creek, the south bornx or the northwest corner of staten island... (manhattan - maybe they can barge it?)
I'm sure Nimbys would have a fit even with this arrangement though...
Instead of investing in eduucation and attrating new industies, NY has let the unions run amuck driving up cost and forcing many industries out of state.
Absolutely. Attracting new industries is a zero-sum race to the bottom. Industries want to locate where there are nonunionized labor forces that won't demand $25/hour for jobs that trained chimpanzees would find boring. That ain't New York.
Community groups in semi industrial areas such as red hook take the city to court anytime a new factory or waste transfer station wants to set up in their area.
And then they bitch and moan that there aren't any jobs.
i'm generally a pro transit guy, but parking tickets and the such have all recently been DOUBLED. $110 fine for not feeding the meter fast enough, etc? is there any other city in this country with such extreme fines?
What in the world is wrong with a $110.00 parking fine.
That *IS* the correct amount!
back when the fare was 15c the parking fine was $10.00
Now the fare is $1.50 (.15 x 10) the parking fare should be $100. ($10. x 10). THIS just keeps up with NORMAL INFLATION.
Elias
perhaps the problem is that it was doubled overnight. that definitely isn't going over very well with many, many people.
perhaps the problem is that it was doubled overnight. that definitely isn't going over very well with many, many people.
They should complain? They had a free ride for so many years.
Hey, they don't have to pay a penny! All they gotta do is not break the law. *That* cannot be too much to ask for, can it.
You see, they had been looking at the parking fine as license to park wherever the felt, and yes a 100% increase in a license fee might be steep, but they were wrong: it was not a license fee, it was a penalty for breaking the law. As such a $500 fine would not be out of line in such locations as their violation of law denies others of the free flow of traffic and goods in the city. (Ie congested areas, rather than some residential street in Queens.)
Elias
Those fancypants women probably pay that much just on gas for their zip code on wheels.
Duly noted:
Wheb 9/11 happened, NY representatives asked for $20 BILLION dollars and New Yorkers were shocked when Bush said "Yes."
Then they said: "Oh, he won't give it to us." But he did, more than twenty-ONE billion is committed. What do you think is paying for the cleanup, the new 1/9 project (completed) and a bunch of other things in the pipeline.
So if your post is typical of the attitude of New Yorkers, there are two points.
1. No matter what a disfavored politician does for the City, it will be spit upon, so
2. There's no point in doing anything for the City at all.
Might as well save the money for all the gratitude.
Only problem is that when the numbers were tallied, it came to $54 billion, and everybody accused New York of being piggy. So New York politicos backed off and settled for less than half that amount. Turns out that the $54 billion WAS accurate. I'm not judging here, but we're just as screwed ...
Only problem is that when the numbers were tallied, it came to $54 billion, and everybody accused New York of being piggy. So New York politicos backed off and settled for less than half that amount. Turns out that the $54 billion WAS accurate. I'm not judging here, but we're just as screwed ...
$54 billion? After insurance (there was a lot of insurance)? NYC and NYS were asking for candy store stuff, including the Second Avenue Subway. For what? Our good looks? Our appealing nature?
Think if this had happened in San Francisco. S.F. mayor asks for $20 billion. President says "Yes." S.F. mayor sees S.F. has lots of good will and ups the ante. "Now I want $54 billion." You'd give it to them?
As I said, for all the gratitude, why bother?
I'm DESPERATELY trying to keep this away from the "politics" angle. Second Avenue is not, and SHOULD NOT be part of that amount. The $54 billion represents actual loss, much of it in revenue to the state and city itself as a result of the casualties. My understanding of the financial "aid" was that the money could only be used to "make NYC whole again" and not for expansive fantasyland projects.
So rather than playing a political postulate, I'll end my part in this by saying Al Qaeda might want to consider HOUSTON next time, or Atlanta and we'll see what happens when THEY get blowed up. New York voted BLUE ... maybe they'll pick on a RED state next time. :(
"maybe they'll pick on a RED state next time."
Not too likely, except for some accidental damage to VA while atatcking Washington DC. The red states don't represent the power of the US to Al Qaeda. New York and Washington do. The closest they'd get to a red state (other than the WA suburbs) is Chicago, and even that's not likely.
Then like I said last year, looks like someone owes US some money for taking *their* punch in the face. :(
I'm DESPERATELY trying to keep this away from the "politics" angle. Second Avenue is not, and SHOULD NOT be part of that amount. The $54 billion represents actual loss, much of it in revenue to the state and city itself as a result of the casualties. My understanding of the financial "aid" was that the money could only be used to "make NYC whole again" and not for expansive fantasyland projects.
Actual damages from the attacks weren't anywhere close to $54 billion. When Pataki came up with that amount, he was including funding for some projects that weren't even close to NYC - bridge repairs near Syracuse were part of the request, if I recall correctly.
It's probably impossible to tally up the damages caused by the attacks. It does appear, however, that the $20+ billion in federal aid is a pretty good approximation of the uninsured losses. There certainly has been enough to repair transit damage.
Maybe we should sue Saudi Arabia for the difference, considering that is where most of the people actually responsible for the actual destruction were from.
You know, in most historical situations, anything vaguely like what happened 9/11, where those responsible were (IIRC) 80% nationals of a single country, that country would be scrambling to explain how these were not agents and seeking to make amends, before the bombs started falling...
"Reparations" have ALWAYS been part of diplomacy. I think that's the reason why some of us have been so outraged. Instead of pursuing THAT course, we'd rather pyth away MORE money and go blow up someone ELSE. Must be me, but I just don't get it.
"Turns out that the $54 billion WAS accurate."
The big problem was that the $54 billion included a high speed rail link to Schenectady. This may be a very good idea, but it has nothing to do with 9/11. It may also have been the only non-9/11 item in the wish list, but it was so egregious that Pataki destroyed NY's credibility.
THAT number was STRICTLY Bruno ... and of course, spoken through his handpuppet. As it IS, Bruno walked away with a substantial part of NYC's money for his own personal pet rocks ANYWAY.
What I'm saying though is $54 billion IS the amount of money NYS and NYC lost as a direct result of 911, most of it in lost revenue as a result of the economic damage caused by 911 ... the terrorists came to NYC to "destroy our economy." They DID ... I'd say more, but I won't lest we get into another slugfest.
[... parking tickets ... recently been DOUBLED ...]
[... smoker ... $7 a pack ... and raise the fares ...]
[... the headlines ought to read ... "Bush to NYC, Drop Dead"]
NO, wrong, it's not Washington, it's our man in Albany who's been doing it to us ever since he got elected. This Republican didn't vote for him !
Bruno wants a SECOND train station in Saratoga, gotta pay for it somehow. And YES, despite the budget shortfall, it's already a DONE DEAL. :(
Let's be clear about this. The deal is LOTs of money from the rest of the state is drained into New York City for Medicaid, which finances the health and social services industries which form the base of what used to be called the "reform" Democrats. In exchange, New York City gets ripped off in every other way, and our "represenatives" in Albany go along with it.
Now, for seven years Pataki worked to make this an even WORSE deal for NYC, increasing the unequal treatment for NYC in other categories (taxes, transportation, school aid) while trying to restrain the money drained into the city. Then, after 9/11, he decided to pour big bucks into the city.
Does anyone remember what that was for? Can anyone imagine what is going to come next?
I'm curious to know, alas after reading that last sentence several times, I've discovered the bulb on my thinking cap ain't gonna give indication no matter how many times I kick it. What's the deal?
(I'm curious to know, alas after reading that last sentence several times, I've discovered the bulb on my thinking cap ain't gonna
give indication no matter how many times I kick it. What's the deal?)
New York City's Medicaid payments per recipient were double the national average, and far higher than in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Massachusettes (ie. not right wing, no services states) in 1999. Two thirds of that money is spent in NYC, though (as a result of the local share of Medicaid) NYC residents pay a lot of it. This is what you upstaters are paying INTO as opposed to sucking OUT OF NYC.
In January 2002, Pataki pushed through a bill to raise reimbursements rates higher. Higher than double the national average. He outbid the Democrats, and local 1199, the health care workers union, then supported him, as did the Greater New York Hospitals Assn, the Nursing Home owners, etc. After the Democrats has sold out EVERYONE, and EVERYTHING for this particular interest.
For more detail, check out the Independence Party Website at www.ipny.org, under Essays. Read "The Truth About the State of New York,' and then "Pataki's 10 Most Unforgivable Decisions."
OK ... then it IS what I thought it was rather than something brand new. Yeah, our property taxes went up by 31% here as a result and school taxes by another 15% ... Amusingly (?) those taxes combined amounted to 68% of my annual income last year. :(
In January 2002, Pataki pushed through a bill to raise reimbursements rates higher. Higher than double the national average. He outbid the Democrats, and local 1199, the health care workers union, then supported him, as did the Greater New York Hospitals Assn, the Nursing Home owners, etc. After the Democrats has sold out EVERYONE, and EVERYTHING for this particular interest.
I don't understand what Pataki totally capitulated to 1199. He probably didn't get many votes out of it, and it wasn't as if he ever was facing a tough re-election campaign. I find it a very puzzling decision.
(I don't understand what Pataki totally capitulated to 1199. He probably didn't get many votes out of it, and it wasn't as if he
ever was facing a tough re-election campaign. I find it a very puzzling decision. )
Think of it as a substitute for giving NYC a fair share of state school aid, and financing the Second Avenue Subway.
It appears the way to win in politics is to seek out the already-priviledged interests that manipulate the government and give them even more before an election, then screw everyone else afterward. Pataki and Hillary both have this in common.
The cigarette tax is a city tax and the parking fines are also NYC, so thank our Mayor. Now he wants to raise the property tax 25%, I'll need a second job to pay my maintenance.
Quick Doug, tell them no politics on Subtalk. I dare you.
I have been considering this situation.
It is quite a bit like smoking. And now cigarettes are what $7.00 a PACK in NYC???
So increase the guzzleoline tax to say $1.00 (or +/gal).
It would have to be a regional tax. (NY-NJ-CT) at least the areas within say 150 mi NYC. This money goes to regional transportation development and operation. (Europe is at $3.00+ /gal (US) IINM)
Of course Boston, Albany, and Philidelphia regions might well impose a similar fuel-tax, so that trying to drive 100 miles to avoid the tax would not be an option.
It may encourage more fuel-efficient transportation for those who as cannot afford the tax, and will soak the wealthy-have-a-right-to-SUV-ala-Limbaughites.
And most importantly, it develops an itegrated regional solution to transportation.
Elias
Let's face it:
- Tax receipts are way down because the Wall St bonuses and huge personal capital gains are gone.
- Govt expenses are the same as always, and gradually increasing.
- We're all going to have to pay more and get less.
In this environment, is it really a bad idea to put in place SELECTED service cuts. For example, in these times, can we REALLY justify the following MID-DAY levels of service?
- 12 tph on Nassau St and the WB.
- 26 tph on CPW.
- 14 tph on the Brooklyn Fulton St line.
- 20 tph in the Montague tunnel.
- 12 tph on the Brighton line.
- 24 tph on 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
- 12 tph to Astoria.
- Also, 17 tph in the evening on the QB local tracks.
(Some numbers may actually be slightly higher).
Yeah, they are bad.
Bring back the commuter tax.
Yes we can. Decreasing service reduces ridership. In the case of the Brighton line the the service is neccissary.
Increase the wait and people opt to drive or call a cab
In the case of the Brighton line the the service is neccissary.
Midday Brighton express service is one of the least ridden lines I've ever seen. Especially now that both trains are headed for the same trunk line in manhattan, I say eliminate midday < Q > service. You could also get rid of Midday "B" service right now. For a long time, CPW was served only by one service, The "AA" (later the "K"). Having the "C" serve it now would be adequate. Midday "W" trains could terminate at 57th/7th.
Also both Q's share the same terminal now. I love the Brighton express and would be sad to see it cut back, but I usually never see many others on the train in Brooklyn. Also often we have to run a segment of the run on the local anyway, due to construction.
Also I'm suprised at the high ridership of the Grand st shuttle. Considering they could just ride the NRQW to Canal and walk, perhaps that should be eliminated as well.
But the biggest waste by far the midday M to Brooklyn. The train is always EMPTY. That should be the first cut.
Also I'm suprised at the high ridership of the Grand st shuttle. Considering they could just ride the NRQW to Canal and walk, perhaps that should be eliminated as well.
There was a considerable amount of community opposition when Grand Street service was reduced to a shuttle (not that there was much of a choice). Total elimination of service would be way too controversial even with Canal as a nearby alternative.
The M to Brooklyn comes out of the NY State budget, not the TA budget. It may be cut, although it will be as a result of statewide budget cuts, not TA budget cuts. As long as NYS is willing to fund it, the TA will run it.
Do some of these rush hour + midday service patterns exist because there is no way to split a shift to cover just the peak periods? Unlike crossing guards, train operators and conductors can't go home in between!!
I don't get to the big city that often, but when I do I try to ride the Brighton Express mid-day. Once, just once, I found it fairly empty. On all other occasions it was crowded, and noisy, and bustling. Most of those occasions were during the summer, though, perhaps there is a difference.
Yes we can. Decreasing service reduces ridership. In the case of the Brighton line the the service is neccissary.
Increase the wait and people opt to drive or call a cab or forgo a trip into the city
I'd rather see the rich suffer. As long as people can afford to buy these luxury SUV's and pay for them, then they can pay additional vehicle taxes.
I can't imagine any less service on subway lines than what is now. Trains are always packed, and I never, ever get a seat. Perhaps the shortening of some lines, like having M Brooklyn service only in rush hours, may be more of a viable option. CPW trains are always crowded, I cant see any cuts there. The Grand st shuttle bus is a waste however, I never see anybody on there, so that can be cut.
Mass transit use should be encouraged, and maybe forced, on the public. London has the right idea, by instituting a tax on all vehicles traveling to the CBD. NYC should do this, before cutting any MTA service. Also token booth clerks serve a valuable purpose to passengers that may be in trouble, have questions, or helping crime victims.
The M to Brooklyn middays is funded by Albany from what I understand. I don't think it will get cut.
The whole TA is funded by Albany.
What I meant was the service was funded through New York State and does not come out of the TA's budget. Of course, Albany can discontinue its funds in which case service will end since the TA doesn't want to run it if they have to pay for it.
Look for ANYTHING "not life critical" to end - the state's over $12 billion in the hole and the end is nowhere in sight. We're on the tinfoil standard now, headed for the ball of string ... I see LOTS of cuts unless money can be made up elsewhere, and even there, I'd expect any "found money" to also be used elsewhere ... things are a LOT worse than we'd been lead to believe prior to the election.
I understand that. I am saying that the often ridiculed M service to Brooklyn outside of rush hours comes out of the state budget, not the MTA budget. The state has to cut the service since they pay for it, not the MTA.
We'll see what happens now that the pander bears have been put back in the toychest for 2-4 years and there'll be no repercussions from the voters now. :)
Just soak the wealthy. Greenvale and East Hills probably has enough money to get the state out of the hole. As long as people are spending $60 a week to fill their snob trucks, then they can help us all out.
As long as people are spending $60 a week to fill their snob trucks, then they can help us all out.
John, did it ever occur to you that the folks who are spending that kind of money on gas just might possibly have done something to EARN that money? Unlike yourself, of course, who sits around on your butt expecting those of us who do work to hand you a free living.
When you get a job paying $130K a year (median family income of the target market for full-sized SUV owners, according to an auto industry study), then perhaps you can decide how the money you EARN should be spent. But as long as you are a parasite on society, KEEP YOUR DAMN MOUTH SHUT about how those who are involuntarily supporting you choose to spend the money that the government hasn't managed to pick from their pockets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well I just have a different belief on spending money. If I was lucky enough to be making $130K I'd be spending it more wisely.
If I was lucky enough to be making $130K I'd be spending it more wisely.
I'll have to agree with you on that. I don't make anywhere near that, and I'm the sole income source for my family, so I'm not part of the target market for an SUV, but I don't have any particular desire to have one anyway. The older I get the more important COMFORT is to me, and I find my Windstar to be extremely comfortable - more so than an Explorer or an Expedition or even than an Escalade (a co-worker has one that I've ridden in) - and a whole lot more frugal on gasoline and initial cost. After all, the Windstar is a Ford Taurus at heart, not an F-150 or a Ranger, so it rides much more like a car instead of a truck. (And, when I want to drive a truck, I have one... my '65 Ranchero... oh wait a minute, that's built on a car chassis too [Ford Falcon]. But comfortwise it is comparable to a modern truck - much more comfortable than a truck of the same era.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I was lucky enough to be making $130K I'd be spending it more wisely.
It is practically a rule of nature that one's expenses increase in line with one's pay. In other words, if I suddenly started making $250K, I'd still be broke the day before payday.
Well that is the problem. If people actually didnt spend so much of their money on luxury items, they'd be better off in the long run and not be broke. I heard that even in the economic boom of the mid to late 90s, household debt kept rising ever higher.
(It is practically a rule of nature that one's expenses increase in line with one's pay. In other words, if I suddenly started making
$250K, I'd still be broke the day before payday.)
It's a rule of American culture, not nature. My wife and I have a reputation as nortorious cheapskates, but we will have our mortgage paid off after 10 years, have a lot of money saved, and give a lot away.
How? By bucking American culture, beginning with not owning a car for years and then owning just one cheap one and using it only on the weekend. By taking vacation by camping in state parks. By eating a lot of pasta and beans and rice and beans and not eating out much. By not having A/C, and hanging clothes on the line. Etc.
It all starts with the subway. If you need two cars, then you each have to have a car from the moment you get married. That means you have to borrow, and then borrow for the next two cars, etc. The difference between the interest you pay (though perhaps not these days) and the investment returns you could earn (though again, perhaps not these days) is like a snowball going downhill.
It all starts with the subway. If you need two cars, then you each have to have a car from the moment you get married. That means you have to borrow, and then borrow for the next two cars, etc. The difference between the interest you pay (though perhaps not these days) and the investment returns you could earn (though again, perhaps not these days) is like a snowball going downhill.
Totally correct. Cars are quite a big expense, and unlike houses do not go up in value. We have to have two cars, soon to be three, and it certainly takes quite a bite out of the budget.
It is practically a rule of nature that one's expenses increase in line with one's pay. In other words, if I suddenly started making $250K, I'd still be broke the day before payday.
On average, one's percentage of spending decreases with increasing income. Engel's Law still applies.
They should cut LIRR and Metro North service, BEFORE they get to NYC Transit, Metro North riders already get a discount for traveling every day, the only thing we get close to a discount is the 11/10 Metrocard.
The express buses are the real drain on the MTA, especially the X32, get rid of that, since school kids can just use the extra Q44 service (or even their school buses) plus the other SI express buses (who uses that when they have FREE SIRT service (except 2 stops) and FREE Ferry service as well)
The Q44 doesn't run to Bedford Park, requiring people to make a number of annoying transfers.
And the kids cannot use "their school buses"
High schools don't have school buses since the pass system is cheaper for the city and more humane. Schools like Bronx Science cannot possibly have a school bus system because students there come from the whole city.
I saw a school bus one the other day, it said Bronx School of Science and it almost ran into the Bx22 bus
Even though statistics say otherwise, I never enjoyed riding in a school bus. Always froze my butt off in winter on those cold, cold seats and the ride was always nauseating (school bus fumes are the worst!). Those vehicles seem to be built very flimsey, but stats say they are the safest vehicles on the road, so I better keep my mouth shut.
Even today the look of school buses is pretty much the way it was 30 years ago. Do they ever intend to modernize the look? I always wondered too - did they ever install a/c on those damn things?
Yes, but you don't see it much in the northeast since the buses are only used a few weeks per year when A/C would be needed. Same reason most of London lacks A/C.
A/C is needed more than a few weeks per year. Transit busses run the A/C from April or May to September or October. The subway still has the A/C running.
A/C might only be needed half the year, but the same can be said for heating. School busses are heated.
Bronx High School of Science does indeed have their own school bus routes. They use bluebird yellow school buses. The company is Science Bus Co. They have various routes in the city. Of course, parents rightfully have to pay. My youngest son was exploring the possibility of going there. I see the bus traveling around Maspeth regularly.
High schools don't have school buses since the pass system is cheaper for the city and more humane.
Cheaper, granted, but "more humane?"
School busses might be safe, but a ride in the back of a dump truck is more comfortable.
Yes they are.
26tph on cpw???
HA!!!
they could cut the D and make the B a full time local to 205 with 1.5X more service though.
The simple way to avoid service cuts is to raise the fare to $2.00. At that level, I believe, the subway would cover all of its operating cost with farebox revenue, even given all the discounts now in place. Then there would be no reason to reduce service on the subway, ever.
I would rather see the fare jump to $2 without seeing the cuts.
Unfortunately, Pataki is dead set against raising the fare, and because of that, we may see cuts instead.
The elections are OVER. What I expect to see is the fare hike AND the cuts ... but we'll all find out for SURE in mid-January after the "State of the State" speech and the issuance of "budget school" somewhere around the 15th of January ... THEN we'll KNOW.
The simple way to avoid service cuts is to raise the fare to $2.00. At that level, I believe, the subway would cover all of its operating cost with farebox revenue,
According to FTA data, the farebox brings in $2.1 billion and the operating expenses are $3.4 billion. (2000)
In order for the farebox alone to meet current operating expenses, the fare would have to be raised to $2.43 per ride.
Next, should be done with the TBTA surpluses that currently go to make up the existing farebox shortfall?
Right, someone ELSE should pay for it.
Although I think your reasoning is a bit oversimplistic, the fact is that a majority of New Yorkers would prefer bridge tolls over a subway fare increase.
This afternoon at 2PM there will be a film showing and a lecture about the history of trains in Queens and Long Island and trolleys in Queens. This event will take place at the Poppenhusen Institute In College Point at 114-04 14th road. Call 718-358-0067 for more info.
Ah, Conrad Poppenhusen , the founder of the Flushing and North Side RR. Too bad I didn't find out about this earlier.
Bob Andersen
Long Island Rail Road History Website
A while back somebody posted a message asking about Stop Arms on the 10,11,13,34, and 36 in the Tunnel to and from Center City. While I am still not aware of anything on the 'Mainline' from 13th st to 40th St portal, I did get to ride the 10 'branchline' to 36th St portal for the first time yesterday, and noticed a massive stop arm. It comes up from the tracks just after the Red Signal, as we aproached it the signal went yellow, and the arm dropped. I'm assuming that it's there to keep a 10 car from punching it's nose into some 11,12,34, or 36 car's side, and should a 10 car pass it, it would fall to the ground and cut power to the wire. Has anybody seen a similar device on the Main tunnel just west of 33rd st? It was quite umistakable, a large pole sticking up with red strips on the sign attached to it.
I assume it's to keep automobiles out of the tunnel. This used to happen all the time. I recall one newspaper report where a motorist wanted to get someplace and someone told them to "follow the trolley" and they did--straight into the tunnel, where they got hung up.
They've used tire prong things, but those have the problem that if they do give people some flats, they can clog ip the tunnel mouth.
I've seen the stop arms. They appear to be used more for traffic control. Since only one trolley can use the intersection where the 10 and the main line meet at one time....the bar goes up on the track on which the trolley should stop...until the intersection has cleared and it is safe to proceed.
(example: eastbound route 13 trolley approaches the intersection at close to the same time a eastbound route 10 approaches the intersection. the bar will go up before the 10 trolley while the 13 trolley makes it through the merge)
The arms control the 10's divergence from the subway at 36th portal. There are 'arms' that rise from between the rails in both directions until the signal clears the move and the car proceeds.
The arms control the 10's divergence from the subway at 36th portal. There are 'arms' that rise from between the rails in both directions until the signal clears the move and the car proceeds.
I just heard on 1010 WINS that beginning next week, all n/b E and V trains will bypass 53/Lex from 7:30am-9:30am. This is in response to overcrowding caused by construction which has greatly reduced platform space, forcing passengers to walk dangerously close to the platform's edge.
There was just a Bulletin out stating that they was going to move the 10 car and C/R indication board up about 25 feet. I guess theyre both related...........
Maybe if they'd swap the F & V, the 53rd Street line would get more service and the platform wouldn't be so over-crowded.
I doubt it. The crowded F trains would make the crowding at the Lexington Ave platform worse. All the TA can do otherwise is to make the contracters work faster.
Actually, the Metrocard transfer between 63rd-59th becomes more useful now - since people have to walk anyway.
They might also bring back the metrocard transfer between Lexington Ave/53 St and 51 St/Lexington Ave.
They never had one, did they? I wouldn't. There will be no reason to have the transfer, since you won't be able to transfer to Queens bound trains. What they need to do is program the transfers at Lexington Avenue and 45th Road to give you a third transfer, so people will take the F and 7. I am surprised they aren't telling people they can take the 7 to 45th Road and then catch the E and V.
There was a metrocard transfer a few years back. IIRC new esculators were being built at the Lexington Ave end. For a while there was no direct transfer from the E and F to the 6. So people got out at 3 Ave and walked over to 51 St and Lexington to transfer. Assuming they had a metrocard.
Absolutely not relevant.
Now all I can say to those construction complainers, by complaining you've now made the situation worse. :-0
People complain when the subway is falling apart, and they complain when they are trying to fix it.
Over in Unionport Yard, there are:
A pair of Pelham Redbirds
A pair of Corona Redbirds
Of course several Dyre Redbirds.
IDK if this was metioned b4. I forgot what track these cars are stored on.
My idea for the TA to generate revenues to help fill in the huge deficit is as follows: Cell phone towers in subway tunnels. It could be an INCREDIBLE marketing tactic for the winning cell phone company. It would also mean REALLY big bucks for the TA. The deal would go something like: The carrier is responsible for all installation and maintainance costs, and in return the TA can ONLY allow one carrier to use the tunnels for cell phone service. The carrier pays $1000 ( or more) per month per tower rent to the TA.
Would this work?
I wouldn't mind people waiting for the train on a subway platform to use a cell phone. I would mind people yammering while squeezed in riding the train. I think that is the consensus on Subtalk.
SubTalk is not representative of all the feelings of New Yorkers. Unfortunately, Quiet Car rules, like those on Amtrak, can not be easily enforced on the subway.
WMATA had Bell Atlantic (now Verizon) install receivers in the subway tunnels although I see very few people using phones in the subway. It had been advertised in the station mezzanines with purple ads reading HEAR HERE white text and a picture of a cell phone next to the text.I used to be able to get analog Sprint signals down below too, but I can't anymore for some reason.
We all have to make sacrifices. People complain about the fare hike, and they complain about people screaming on cell phones. Something has to give...
It could be done with the current infrastructure that the MTA has in the tunnels for radio. Cell service could be coupled into the existing antenna system used for train to command communication without interference (due to different frequency ranges), all they would need is to put the equipment in the racks and hook it up. The service, however, would be limited as to the number of people that could use it at one time, since the system would not have all that many cells to accomode a lot of users.
The NY-PSC looked into doing it back in the mid 90's, but the phone company wasn't all that interested.
Yep, I was part of that little study group.
With all the dead spots (underground and above) in the system you would be better off with 2 dixie cups and string.
Heh. Back in the 70's, the radio might have gotten you someone at a terminal but even then it was touchy at best. The REASON though is the TA's chosen frequencies and the happenstance of "standing waves" generated by the coax from adjacent tracks and reflections back and forth off the steel. Ever notice when you're in your own "tube" the radio coverage ain't so bad, but when it's four-wide open steel, it goes straight to crap?
The reason is each "leaky coax" follows each trackway and sometimes the 12 feet of difference from each repeater out to its own coax happen to magically hit a null at 150 MHz. Amazingly at cellular frequencies, it'd work just fine. If the TA had smarts (and money) they'd move the TA radios up to 900 Mhz or so and things would work a lot better. Just thought you'd be amused, we studied the issue at PSC back around 1994/1995 ...
Yes, it would, if there is no public outcry against it. Wiring the subways for cellphone use is controversial, politically.
How is that? Most people now have cell phones, wouldn't there be more support FOR it.
I highly doubt that most people have cell phones.
I highly doubt that even most NYC residents have cell phones.
Yes, it would, if there is no public outcry against it. Wiring the subways for cellphone use is controversial, politically.
I don't see why it should be controversial - as long as taxpayers or subway riders are NOT asked to pay for it. The whole system should be installed at telco expense with rental income going to the TA.
A poll in Britain just selected Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" as the greatest song of all time. What'll be next, they'll say "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians" is the best movie of all time???
Hooray for Santa Claus!
Bohemian Rhapsody is different. It is not bad, but best??? What happened to The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd?
Hey Jude got third (or second, I think it was third). I heard it on the CBS Houly news this morning although I was in bed and not fully awake.
Why not Bohemian Rhapsody? It tells a story, it integrates several different tunes into one, it has beautiful harmony and genuine singing... What makes this song unworthy of the title? Does a song have to be the most popular song of all time to be considered the "best" song of all time?
Third, and here's the full list:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2426865.stm
Now the real proff that it's nuts to say Bohemian Rhapsody's the best song ever is that it isn't even the best song on the Queen album A Night at the Opera.
Noel Coward wrote a song that stated the British were nuts. It's called "Mad Dogs and Englishmen." The theme is "Only Mad Dogs and Englishmen go in the Mid Day Sun."
Michael
Washington, DC
And Flanders & Swan wrote a song “The English are Best!” as an alternative national anthem.
I would point out that going out in the mid-day sun in England is a challenge. First find your sun…
What'll be next, they'll say "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians" is the best movie of all time???
Come on, Peter. Everybody knows that Plan 9 from Outer Space is the best movie of all time - followed closely by Robot Monster.
What'll be next, they'll say "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians" is the best movie of all time???
Come on, Peter. Everybody knows that Plan 9 from Outer Space is the best movie of all time - followed closely by Robot Monster.
Let's see ... in "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians," you had the green makeup melting and running under the movie lights, while in "Plan 9 from Outer Space" you had the car hubcap "flying saucers." A difficult choice.
I think "Santa Claus conquers the Martians" is remembered because it was starred Pia Zadora.
What'll be next, they'll say "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians" is the best movie of all time???
Actually, "Apocalypse Now" was voted best movie of all time.
Today at appprox 2:15PM/2:20PM at Broadway Junction Station on a train that was getting ready to go to Manhattan a father and his 3 children were getting and the doors closed while one child was still on the platform. This incicdent took place right in front of the conductor and she refused to do anything about it. It was the 5th car of a R-143 car number was 8227 i believe.
When talking to the female conductor about it she told me to get a life and cused me with a 4 letter word.
How could a person like this work for NYC Transit and how can this incicdent be reported to supervision and not buried under the rug.
By the way the child was approx 5 years of age.
The train was gettig ready to go to Manhattan on Track #1 and originated their because of a general order.
The head 4 cars were 8100's but the 8th car number was 8230
Would appreciate any one's help
Thank You
Please read my prior post on this subject
Thank You
What kind of help are you looking for? If you want NYCT to start a disciplinary proceeding against this C/R (which would be a very reasonable thing to want), you're going to have to file a complaint yourself. You're the one who witnessed it.
You can't expect an employee of NYCT who happens to read your posting to speak to that C/R's supervisor just based on your posting. And it would be a gross violation of that employee's rights for NYCT to start any disciplinary action without an authenticated statement from the witness, namely you.
What are you saying happened that the kid got clobbered by the doors or that it stood there like a deer as the doors closed.
Should the C/R have 'pulled the cord'? When were they aware that the child was supposed to be on the train when it was moving or after the C/R gave indication back to the T/O?
Report it to customer service. At the same time, I hope the family involved had a contingency plan. WMATA encourages groups to make them. Often, they are to have the people on the train get off at the next station and to have those who missed it take the next train to the next station.
8230 shouldn't have been the last car of the train, since they are in 4 car sets. 8228 and 8231 can be cab cars.
If one has the phone number for customer service, call them instead of 243-3222. Be prepared to give the correct time, train direction, Car numbers and any infomation you have to spot this train.
If you were on the platform with the seperated child, you should have taken the child to the police district. Downstairs behind the token booth. I'm not backing up the conductor. But getting the child reunited with the father is more important than reporting the conductor.
Reporting the conductor starts with dialing 243-3222.
That phone number is available 24 hours a day, but it is for the Station Command Center. The employee is not a Division of Stations employee.
The phone number for Customer Assistance is 718-330-3322; it's available 9A-5P weekdays (not this coming Monday, Veterans Day). As an alternative, write a letter to NYC Transit, 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn NY 11201. Be sure to provide as much pertinent information as possible (what was provided in the SubTalk message looks like it should be sufficient).
David
Maybe it's not the correct number (I didn't know what was the number) But at least it's a step in the right direction.
What happened to the little kid? Did you try and help him out by getting on the next train and riding it till you saw his father? I feel so bad for that young child,and so ticked off at that C/R for having an attitude problem.
While I don't endorse that type of behavior allegedly displayed by a NYCT conductor, I also do NOT condone stupid parenting. I still hold my 11 year old daughter's hand every now and then and always have an eye on her while doing everyday activities like riding the bikes, in the park, and especially congrgating in crowded conditions where separation is possible. For this knucklehead to be on the train with the doors closing on his child on the platform shows that we will never have enough Darwin awards to hand out. Thank god it wasn't another child left at home while the parent went out "for a minute".
he had 3 children with him, and was without other adults
That wouldn't be an excuse for me failing to safeguard my child. Thank god he got his 5 year old back without harm, and hopefully the father learned his lesson not to trust anyone, not even a public servant with the safety of his own child.
How is it comprehensible that a man can manage to walk
and maintain 8 to 12 dogs at once... but yet the absurd loon
in this instance CANNOT walk with and maintain his 3 children?
While I agree that what the conductor in this case did was totally irresponsible, and showed a total lack of judgement, how can a father enter a train before his child, and not stand in the doorway to make sure all of his children are on the train before the doors close!
.......from a poster at the LIRR forum at railroad.net.
Rode on M-7 set on the 6:04 Ronkonkoma train out of Flatbush. Wow! incredibly smooth ride and extremely quiet. Because the view out the big windows is dark in the terminal after the doors closed the only way you could tell you were moving was by the intermittent muffled whine of the AC propulsion system. No more flickering lights or bumping and squeaking over the switches. Even the deafening roar of the run through of the Atlantic Ave tunnel is gone. On the M-7s its now possible to have a conversation on that part of the run. If the LIRR can maintain these cars, this is going to be a huge success. Suddenly the M-1s are old.
RA..RA M-7s
Peace.
ANDEE
suddenly the railfan window is gone ...........
i did enjoy the trip on the D types ...
when i have enough change in my pocket i want to order your
new claendar !! they are really nice !
>>when i have enough change in my pocket i want to order your
new claendar !! they are really nice !<<
I'll reserve a copy for you.
Bill "Newkirk"
well thanbk you sir !! much appreciated
Perhaps Bombardier FINALLY has a decent finished product?
its obvious.....it hasn't crapped out yet and i am surprised there hasn't been a crap out upto now. Go Bombardier!!
Yes, go Bombardier!
What is the difference between the R27 and the R30? They were used extensively on the Brighton local. Though I had not read any subway books at that time in my life, I was aware of subtle differences in subway car models. whan I rode the QT, QJ or QB, I never knew if I was on an R27 or an R30.
How could you tell?
Here are two things I've observed on the difference between the R-27 and R-30's:
1) Those poles down the center of the car, at the top is something called an escutheon (sp?) or collar with screws in it. On the R-27's they are curved like the IRT R-26/28's. On the R-30's, they are straight.
2) Door leafs on R-27's open and close slowly and make a whirring sound. On the R-30's they open and close faster, no whirring sound'
Then of course, there are car numbers to tell them apart
R-27 #8020-8249
R-30 #8250-8351 #8412-8569
R-30A 8352-8411
Bill "Newkirk"
I do remember that very distinct sound of the doors. I can not remember hearing that noise in any other subway model in NYC or any other city. I did not know that it was only on the R27, and not the R30.
That's an escutcheon. Weren't there differences in the lighting diffusers between the R30 and R30A?
R27 is heavier (80,345 vs. 79,360 for A; 81,090 to 80,150 for B)
R30 has more HP per ton (i.e 9.96 for R27, 10.08 for R30/R30A)
R27 side signs were by Teleweld, r30 was by Hunter Sign
Control groups were slightly different -.
R30A was GE only.
Couldnt find any other differences
THE ABOVE courtesy of "PASSENGER CAR DATA 1947-1968"
wayne
Hey thanks. Even to the eye of a subway person, it still seems hard to tell the differences by sight. But the help I received from subTalk willgive me additional discretion.
Hey thanks. Even to the eye of a subway person, it still seems hard to tell the differences by sight. But the help I received from SubTalk willgive me additional discretion.
I rode them on the J/M/L lines in the 70's and 80's, and never really could tell them apart. Even now, when I see a photo of one, or commenting on them here, I usually call them R27-30, because I still don;t really know the difference, and it's the safest way to describe them
Externally, they were virtually identical. They were also the first and only 60-footers to have couplers at the blind ends. The R-32s had drawbars.
I don't remember anything unsual about the R-27 doors except their windows didn't line up with the car side windows the way they did on the R-32s. The concept of double sliding doors coming together was fascinating to me when I first rode on the subway. I had my eyes glued to the doors whenever the train I was on would come to a stop at a station.
I rode them extensively in their last 7-10 years and I never knew there were 2 different classes until I discovered this website.
>>Weren't there differences in the lighting diffusers between the R30 and R30A?<<
You mean the glass lens ? They looked alike to me, unless soemone here agrees with your finding.
Bill "Newkirk"
A lot of the components like the doors, lighting glass and windows were made by the same company. You could use any of that stuff in any subway car model except the R-40's on.... That book "The History Of New York City Subway Cars" could varify that, look at all the specifications for each car. The only diffrences was weight the wood used for the floor and electrical and air brake equipment. I went to Transit Tech High. We have an R-30#8337 there That back came in handy for studying there.:)
i like the the R30 better cause they used the redbird sheme color.
til next time
Well, they did towards the end. I still remember their original olive drab paint, then in the late 60s a number of R-27/30s were repainted bright red before the silver-and-blue scheme took over.
before the silver-and-blue scheme took over.
That scheme wasn't really seen too much. It seems that within a week of being repainted, whenever they would repaint them to the silver and blue stripe scheme, they were then covered with their "unoffical" scheme.
I once rode a freshly painted R27/30 out of Queens Blvd in the spring of 1979. Within 48 hours I saw the same train roll past my house covered in grafitti...all 8 cars. Was their even a fence around the ENY yard at this time??
The first silver and blue LAHT cars began appearing in late 1970. They remained clean through 1971, as the graffiti epidemic didn't hit with full force until 1972. I often wonder how they managed to snag a group of clean cars for the original Pelham 1-2-3. Chances are they grabbed those cars as they emerged from the paint shop - except for R-17 6762. On the DVD, you can see graffiti on it if you advance frame by frame.
I once saw a pair of freshly repainted IRT cars around 1980, and one side of one car was already totally obliterated, as if someone just splattered a whole can of paint onto it.
I know this is sacrilege, but I loved the silver & blue scheme, when not covered with grafitti (a rare sight after 1974). The later orange/creme interior of 1978 on definatley beat the grey/puke green that existed prior.
As for the modern redbird scheme, a number of R27's were actually painted in this manner, but since they weren't given a general overhaul their performance was awful and they didn't last long.
Actually the orange interior doors was not that bad (well even though it gave them a "Brady Bunch" look - but it was the 70's). The problem was that it never lasted long until their "unofficial" scheme took hold. In the early 80's every so often you would get a car that still had the grey doors and mint green walls. Of course they only stood out a bit because the graffiti was everywhere.
I remember riding to high school in the 80's and getting newly painted R30's with the orange beige scheme and with in a few days, they were trashed again.
Then the reds scheme started to arrive. I thought they were so attractive. Nobody thought clean trains were possible. I thought they would be trashed just like all the other times a "Clean painted" train would arrive. The reds started to disappear almost as quick as they came though, as the R40's and R42 rebuilds started to arrive.
On a similar note, while discussing paint schemes in the 70's and 80's. The R16's seemed to be the opposite of the R27-30's. With the R30's you would have mostly "orange/beige" interiors, with an occasional grey/green mixed in. WIth the R16's you would have mostly grey/green interiors, with an occasional orange/beige thrown in. Although it was almost hard to notice, as almost every inch of the trains were tagged.
I actually liked the silver and blue scheme when it first appeared just before the graffiti epidemic hit. It seems they did the oldest cars first; i. e., R-10s, R-12s, R-14s, etc. I saw a few R-27/30s just out of the paint shop in early 1971. Not too many R-7/9s got the silver and blue treatment; I never saw any with my own two eyes.
Steve:For some reason the silver and blue MTA paint scheme seemed to work much better with the R-10,12 and 14 crowd. Maybe it had something to do with the roof line. It was okay on the cars with the low arch roof but looked absolutely awful on the R-1/9's. (IMHO)
Years later when they tried out the Pullman Green scheme on the R-10's it worked much better there than the R-33's
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I preferred the Pullman green over the current redbird scheme and I was sorry it wasn't used beyond the experimental R33's and the GE R10's. For some bizarre reason, I expected to see the R16's painted green in 1986, not knowing their fate was already sealed.
Chris: Perhaps the most unflattering paint scheme ever used was that olive drab that the R-16's had when new. As did the R21 thru R28.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For some bizarre reason, I expected to see the R16's painted green in 1986, not knowing their fate was already sealed.
Actually that is not as bizarre as you may think. I was thinking the same thing when I was a teenager and first saw the green R10's on the C/H line in Rockaway. The interiors were somewhat similar between the two classes. Very different - yet similar. I had no idea that the end was near for all of those classes of cars. I thought the Red R27-30's would be around forever, and though that the R16's would soon look like the R10's - Green. But then what did I know about the subway at that time.
Yes, before the internet was invented railfans liks us usually had no idea what was going on. I didn't know the R16's were gone until they were.....well gone. I'd have taken more opportunities to ride them in early 1987 had I known.
I didn't know the R16's were gone until they were.....well gone.
Same here, and I hated them when they were running. Now I only wish one of those disasters would pull into the station! They went very quickly. Around late 1986 or early 1987 they made up almost the mainstay of the M when I took them to High School. They were everywhere. Then all of a sudden they were gone. The M seemingly quickly became mostly red or grafittied R27-30's (which were always on the M anyway) and then rebuilt R40-42's almost as quickly as the R16's disappeared. Even then I didn't realize they had been scrapped. I just figured they were out getting their green paint-jobs.
I vividly remember my last R16 ride in March 1987. Fttingly, I was booted off the train at Pacific St. when it was removed from service for a mechanical problem.
I remember mine also. I guess less fittingly than yours, as it got me to where I was going, but little did I know when I stepped off that train at Wyckoff Ave, it would be the last time I would ever step foot on one of them in service again - sniff-sniff.
Don't feel bad. I rode on the R-16s twice, 19 years apart. The article on the demise of 6321 back in December of 1986 pretty much sums up their woes as a fleet.
6321? LOL. I rode the "new" 6321 yesterday on the #2. I always feel some trepidation when riding on the R142's sporting old R16 numbers.
I saw the "new" 6688 last month on the 5.
As long as the doors work, no need for a Jesuit. :)
With the R-16s, it was a crapshoot as to whether or not the doors on any given car would open. 6321 had repeated door problems near the end. Perhaps the eletric portion pins weren't making contact.
Many of the TA electric door motors suffered a number of problems. Sure electric portions depended on routine brushing and flossing, but the 27/30's in particular (and probably others of the same design) had a NASTY problem with high humidity and the motor brushes ... dunno why, but on soupy days (rain, or especially fog) those suckers would DIE on ya ...
For all the whining those of us who actually did Arnines had about the trains being in crappy shape, maybe it was a few bad cars (that came out day after day no matter HOW much you wrote them up) but the old AIR doors didn't give a crap about the weather. The ELECTRIC doors on SOME cars though ... woof. That's WHY they went inside when the weather sucked. It was the MOTORS that were crap ... no "ooomph."
The BMT standards were immune to bad weather, too. It took a blizzard of epic proportions to slow them down. IIRC their doors didn't give off any air sounds as they opened and closed. They had some sort of electro-pneumatic system.
Yeah, those 6000's are almost synonymous with the R16's. Actually I think the R143's are getting the old R27-30 numbers, I remember them being in the 8000's.
Yup, the R143's are using the old R27 numbers 8101 to 8322. I'm assuming the R160's will start at 8323. That leaves an interesting problem, if all 1700 R160 cars are purchased. There would have to be 22 cars with 5 digit numbers because there aren't enough numbers available between 8323 and 9999 to assign to them all. Could there be an R160 numbered 10001?
Or maybe they'll number the R160's starting from 3000 instead.
Huh? What article in Dec 1986? Where can I find it?
It appeared in the NY Times. My sister sent it to me and I still have it. It's titled, "Requiem For a Subway Car, Age 31" and chronicles the final months of 6321, which was described as being "one of the biggest lemons in the fleet".
A couple of R16s did get the redbird treatment, apparently after their retirement and conversion to work (or school) cars. (See the R16 photos in the "Rolling Stock" section of this site.
:-) Andrew
You can see one of them from a W train just before the West End line turns from Stillwell Ave. onto 86th St. - not far from that famous collision during the chase sequence in The French Connection.
but looked absolutely awful on the R-1/9's. (IMHO)
I totally agree. It made the R1/9s look, well, old :)
--Mark
My dislike of the silver and blue scheme is probably linked to those gawdawful pistacchio green and gray interiors with the yellow-stenciled car numbers (jeez, how cheap can you get?) combined with the similar color schemes going up at the same time on most of the BMT local stations on Broadway. It seemed as though Ronan and Rocky's main goal was to get the MTA corporate colors imbedded everywhere, the same way a cat or dog pees on a tree or a hydrant to mark their "property."
As it turned out, that's pretty much exactly what they were doing, since new paint seemed to be the MTA's answer to deferred maintenance for about the first 15 years of the agency's life. If the color scheme hadn't been so closely linked to Bill and Nellie's self-indulgance, I probably would have had a better opinion of it. As it is, give me the R-10s, R-33s and R-36s in the World's Fair paint scheme with the old TA logo anyday.
I'm surprised they didn't make us wear silver and blue polyester uniforms. Oh wait, they did. Nevermind. :)
I loved that R-10 racing stripe scheme. It was perfect for those speedsters.
The olive drab color is the true R27 color. That is the color they were meant to travel in. Any other color is a slight turn-off to me.
The Westinghouse controller in the R27 (8020 to 8135) was easier to hold down than the Westinghouse controller in the R30 (8413 to 8569) for some reason.
I saw my first R32 (Brightliner) as I walked on Sheepshead Bay Road. I was seven, and always paid attention to the trains at the station while in the street.
At first I could not believe it. I had never seen a stainless steel subway car before, but there it was. i could not believe my eyes.
Since that day, I have spent many hours in the first car of the R32. First on the Q in the mid 1960's and later on the D.
I lived in Bensonhurst, after I graduated from Drexel in Philadelphia, and took the R32 on the N to work in New York. Later I moved to Astoria, and again took the R32 to NY or the Queens Blvd. on the N.
The R32 subway cars look a bit different now, than they did in 1965. They no longer have straps and now they are air conditioned and have many other "improvements". They still have a nice large window in the front of the first car for a little boy like I was, to watch where we are going, just to the left of the "motorman". This is the train that I grew up on. From second grade until now, there has always been an R32 available to ride 24 hours a day. They are an old friend to me and I will miss them when they are retired.
The hours spent on an R32 rank right up there with the time spent in a classroom and the time spent in bed asleep as to their volume. I have spent many hours riding them over the last 37 years. They are the trains that I grew up on.
I got my first picture of one on the back of the 1967 subway map. The train was on the Sea Beach Line. I have that map and picture still today.
My first experience with the "Brightliner" came on Sunday, November 22, 1964 - at the Cortelyou Road station of the Brighton Line. The train was signed "QB" and the first car was #3407. I remember this as if it happened yesterday. My Grandmother was taking me to Manhattan to see a movie and have dinner at Schraffts. Coming back it was R27/30.
wayne
I also remember my first R-32 ride as though it were yesterday, and it also happened to be my very first subway ride ever. The station: 36th St. in Brooklyn; the train: a shiny new N (don't remember what the bulkhead sign said; I've concluded it was an N by the green backlit "57th St." side signs); and the date: July 21, 1965. We were on our way to 34th St. in Manhattan and the Empire State Building. While I don't remember blowing by any local stations, although we certainly did, I do remember crossing the Manhattan Bridge on the north side tracks. Remember, this was before Chrystie St. The biggest attention grabber had to be the blue doors - dark blue on the outside and a delightful teal on the inside. One ad still stands out - a smiling little girl with chocolate all over her face with a caption that said, "Do all minors dig Milky Way?".
From the Empire State Building, we went down to the Battery to catch the ferry to Liberty Island, so we took either a QT or RR, most likely of R-27/30s. That evening we were at my father's cousin's off New Utrecht at the 71st St. station on the West End, and I was mesmerized by the sounds of trains entering and leaving that stop. Chances are some of those trains were Triplexes in literally their final days of service. Had I known then what I know now, I would have made an effort to at least see one, if not ride on one.
Luckily the R-32s will still be around for a few more years. Budd really outdid themselves. Too bad the city didn't buy more cars from them.
was not the r11- the first stainless steel car ??
look at the DOUBLE RAILFAN WINDOW !!
Yes the R11 was the first stainless steel car, but when I was seven I never saw them. The first stainless steel that I ever "saw" was the R32.
I think the few R11 cars were on the BMT east division, and I was on the Brighton Line. I did get to ride the R11 three car Franklin Shuttle trains when they started service at the retirement of the standard cars in 1969. My grandparents lived a block from the museum and the Botanic Garden station was convenient.
I did not know that the R11 ever had letters such as "F" in its rollsign. I thought that it was all numbers.
>>I did not know that the R11 ever had letters such as "F" in its rollsign. I thought that it was all numbers.<<
The R-11's had BMT signs and numbered routes when first built. However, through the years they may changed the front signs, though the side signs didn't have IND route and destinations to my knowledge.
That shot at Bergen St. was probably a fan trip photostop. Now was that Bergen upper level or lower level ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>was not the r11- the first stainless steel car ??<<
The Budd built "Zephyr" was the first stainless steel subway car. But since it was designed to run on older elevated lines due to their light weight, they may also be classified as elevated cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
did i remember this right some of the r11s ran on the A train as well
.........??..........( 1956 -1959 ) .......
>>did i remember this right some of the r11s ran on the A train as well .........??..........( 1956 -1959 ) .......<<
Not really sure about that. There was a time when the R-11's were OOS because they were oddballs. One car was overhauled to run with R-16's as they were not compatible for some reason. Then around 1965, the R-34 contract came about for all remaining nine cars to be overhauled and made compatible with all SMEEs.
I have a black & white shot of the R-11's layed up on a center track on an "el", possible the Fulton St. line out near Lefferts Blvd. Maybe what you saw was an R-16, which did service on the (A).
Bill "Newkirk"
im i,am also a fan of the R32 and they are great cars.
til next time
in my childhood years i remember something like a r 11 on the A train
doing the express maybe it was a r-16?
>>in my childhood years i remember something like a r 11 on the A train
doing the express maybe it was a r-16? <<
The R-16's had the same round railfan storm door window as the R-11's. Also the R-16's defintely ran on the (A) in the 50's, for a short time. Perhaps it was a R-16s that you saw.
Bill "Newkirk"
i was almost not tall enough for that window !!
man was i that short one time in my life ??...........!!
........lol
What about those round windows on the R16 and on certain IRT cars, R17? It took a lot of waiting to grow up to those high round portal windows.
Thanks for that tribute. I started at age 14, Sept. '65, on the Q, at Kings Highways. The Brightliners were the most impressive TA cars then. Less so now, after their overhaul. Nonetheless, I hope they are around forever.
Thanks for the help on the other photos.
Well, no question on the location of these photos. I believe they show the destruction of part of Queensboro Plaza (at least the first two photos do). Okay, so the question is, is the third photo also Queensboro Plaza, and where is the train in the top left corner of the photo? Around when did they demolish part of Queensboro Plaza?
What exactly did they take away at Queensboro Plaza? I know that Queensboro plaza was a much more important station when the 2nd Ave El ran over the Queensboro Bridge.
Check the Astoria line history on this site to get your answers. here is a link ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/astoria/
I believe the train in the third picture is headed to or coming from Astoria.
Looks like it's an Astoria-bound R-27/30 train, given the height of the track, with the picture taken looking east from near the entrance to the Queensboro bridge.
I believe half of Queensborough Plaza was taken down in 1949.
#3 West End Jeff
I believe half of Queensborough Plaza was taken down in 1949.
Take a closer look at the cars in the pictures. They are a lot newer than 1949. The north side of the Queensboro Plaza station was abandoned in 1949. It stood abandoned until the early 1960's.
It's a pity the MTA (or whatever it was known as at the time. TA?) was in such a rush to tear down all those El structures. Little did they know it would only add more stress to the current lines today.
>>It's a pity the MTA (or whatever it was known as at the time. TA?) was in such a rush to tear down all those El structures. Little did they know it would only add more stress to the current lines today.<<
For the record, it was the NYCTA back when that portion of Queensboro Plaza was demolished. But remember, that half of the "Plaza" was redundant after the termination of 2nd Ave "el" service over the Queensboro Bridge to Queens in 1942. Not demolishing it would have no effect today since it was wasted space anyway.
Bill "Newkirk"
I did notice that the cars in the picture were from the late 1950s and early 1960s and all you could see was the heavy equipment. I did look at the information concerning the partial demolition of Queensborough Plaza and it took place in 1964.
#3 West End Jeff
The north side of the station (four tracks, two levels, two platforms) was demolished in the early 1960's. Based on the cars parked on the adjacent curb, that's when I would date these photos. The north side was unused after the Oct. 1949 changeover that made all BMT trains through routed to Astoria and made the Flushing Line an entirely IRT route. The BMT shuttles stopped running and the northside was no longer needed.
The north side of Queensboro Plaza was not torn down until 1961 or 1962.
Has anyone ever noticed at Jackson Ave and Queens Blvd a route for a crosstown El that would have went south on Jackson Ave. I read what was to be the route and what were to be the stations. People could have transfered with the BMT Brooklyn Broadway El at (I think) Driggs Ave. Probably the Myrtle, Lexington and Fulton Ave Els also. Eventually it would have physically connected with the Franklin Ave Shuttle. In the book I read it was a serious proposed line. I guess with Hylan's anti BRT bias and his own pushing for his IND System, the BMT line never got past the serious proposal stage
Very Interesting. Do you remember what book that was?
It was a refrence book at the QBPL on 81 Street in Jackson Heights. I think it was something like "The history of Rapid Transit in Brooklky and Queens (Nassau and Suffolk) The book also had a map to it that one day disappeared. This was the late 60's. So who knows if the book is still there?
>>I guess with Hylan's anti BRT bias and his own pushing for his IND System, the BMT line never got past the serious proposal stage<<
Perhaps the ghost of the old BMT got back at Hylan and his IND by jinxing the IND Second System !
Bill "Newkirk"
The ghost of Hylan sure got BMTman on that Arnine. :)
He was doing his best impression of Lucky Luciano.:)
Maybe that's why a few weeks after the IND Second System was announced people were jumping out of the office windows at Wall Street. They saw the ghosts and they caused the Crash.
Wow, that's cold porridge ... true, but cold. :)
The north (BMT section) of Queensboro Plaza was closed in 1949. This platform was designed to be used as a connector between the BMT Astoria & Flusing el service (using 9' wide el cars due to both lines being built to IRT standards) and the steel subway cars coming from the 60th St. tube. The southern half was the IRT section which served the Steinway tubes and the 2nd Ave el. In 1949, the Astoria line was changed to accomodate the 10' cars of the BMT and the incoming tracks from 60th St. were moved to enter the former 2nd Ave track on the southern IRT section. The northern half lay abandoned until 1962/3, when it's demolition was carried out, probably to avoid it being an eyesore to the crowds coming to the '64 World's Fair.
>>> This platform was designed to be used as a connector between the BMT Astoria & Flusing el service (using 9' wide el cars due to both lines being built to IRT standards) and the steel subway cars coming from the 60th St. tube <<<
The demolished North half of the station was a mirror image of the remaining South half. When the station was built (1923??), the BMT and IRT were separate companies, so each had its own station and collected its own fares without any interconnection within fare control. All BMT trains stopped at the North station, and all IRT trains stopped at the South Station. There was no free transfer between the divisions at QBP until 1942 when the 2nd Avenue El stopped running over the bridge.
Tom
I know that GO has been used for a detour, but what does G-O stand for?
General Order
G/O also stands for Major Confusion. 8-)~
A General Order is one that affects the whole line, and all of the trains moving on it. Otherwise orders are delivered to individual trains such as: "Go Out of service at 14th Street and move into the pocket at Canal."
Elias
Great Order
Geese Overload
When you work in the 'yahd,' a toilet may be to or three city blocks away. So, you secure your tools as fast as you can, drop your work assignment and run as fast as you can for a 'GO.' CI Peter
Hmmm... suddenly I'm having visions of some
MIGHTY interesting GO-TV programming...
G-O stands for General Order.
#3 West End Jeff
I am intrested in getting some used subway signs. Does you have any to sell. I have around $60 to pay for a used sign. Please email with what you have at bpawelko@comcast.net Thanks!
Check eBay. Subway Al is good
Would you believe that I found an old Dekalb Avenue wall post sign with white backround and black letters while walking to work in Downtown Brooklyn back in 1988. I picked it up and looked at it and decided that I did not need more junk and threw it back on the sidewalk.
I regret that.
Would you believe that I found an old Dekalb Avenue wall post sign with white backround and black letters while walking to work in Downtown Brooklyn back in 1988. I picked it up and looked at it and decided that I did not need more junk and threw it back on the sidewalk.
Oh man, that does suck!
Actually, I was found two signs in the trash over the years. One I found on my way to college one morning. It is a white with black letters porcelain sign, with the woodened framing, and metal ceiling. I have no idea if it is IRT, IND, or BMT. It says:
"Passengers With Exact Fare Enter Here. Drop Nickel in Coinbox.", with an arrow pointing diagnally down.
It was just lying on top of some trashbags in front of someone's house! I had a choice, miss the subway and be late for class, or grab it and take it home....I was late to class that morning....
The other one is one of the pillar signs from the IND Roosevelt station. It is also white with black letters: "ROOSE-VELT" - also just lying on the trash.
The rest of my signs I bought at the Transit Museum Tag sales when they had them.
Actually, I was found two signs in the trash over the years.
"I was found two signs"?
Sorry, I meant, "I have found two signs".
To the List:
Last count I have (October 29) shows 8236 as the highest number in passenger service, and 8260 highest number delivered at ENY.
Anyone have anything higher either way?
Also, FYI the Siemens prototype train (8205-8212) will be testing along the Sea Beach Line during late November and much of December.
Suggest you watch the middle iron from New Utrecht to Avenue U.
Testing may conducted any day of the week, including weekends.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Hopefully this 8236 will have better luck than its namesake predecessor!
Aside from the R143, any news on the gap in the R142 6800 and 6900
series?
wayne
There's a gap between 6800 and 6900 on the R142's? Then explain to me how come I've been on some 6800 car numbers on the 2 train before.
I think what he means, is that there is a large number of 6800s and 6900s that are not on TA property, whereas car #s in the 70s are not only on the property, but in passenger service.
For example, I rode #7023 on the "5" a few weeks ago, but to this date delivery of all of the 6800s and 6900s are not complete.
That is correct. To date I've only seen 6836-6850, 6856-6865, 6971-75, 6996-7000. I am sure there are others, but I've not seen them yet. I have a 10-hour plus railfan trip coming up tomorrow (with Simon Billis and company), so I may see some of them then.
wayne
List & Stef:
Confirmed delivery of 7091-7095 on Thursday, 11/7/02.
Don't know if 7096-7100 might have chased them last night.
It now appears 6800s and 6900s will be arriving after 7210.
Any sign of 7056-7065 on the road yet?
Numbers for the Second Option are changed. Originally 7731-7850, now to be 1101-1220. 7731 and up will be held for the R-160s.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I saw 7031-40 on the Dyre Avenue line is this the only "married " trainset of R-142's running I've noticed the other cars are broken up.
I saw 7061-7065 in service on the 5 line.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
1101-1220???????
WHAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTT?????????????
And 7731-what for the R160s? 7731-9799?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
1101-1220??? SWELL! That makes an absolute MESS out of my numbers book.
If they're going to hold 7731-out for the R160, they have to hop over the R143 numbers, don't they? I thought the R160 was going to start with 83xx or 8400 and go right out to 9999.
wayne
R142#1101-1220.Ok i confused.Bombardier will make this change Some one tell me where you got this info.
AML
R143MAN
If 7731 is the first R160 number, they can't go past 7999 because the 8000 series is the R110, while 8101 starts the R143's. I assumed that the R160's would start at 8312, but we all know what happens when one ASS-U-MEs.
Sure you can change the numbers on the R110A's to free up the 8000 number group, but 7731 to 8099 (or 8100) would still mean a split series for the R160's. Car numbers on older cars could be changed to accomodate consecutive R160 numbers similiar to what was done in the past on buses.
The other alternative would be to renumber the R-143s (unlikely?). How do they come up with these numbering schemes?!?
-Stef
How do they come up with these numbering schemes?!?
The same way the Pennsy did... with a dart board :-)
Seriously, as a general rule the PRR did not put their steam locomotives into any particular numbering sequence, they simply used whatever number happened to be available at the time a particular locomotive was constructed. There were times, of course, when a block of numbers was open and they used it for a series, but there were many other times when they simply scattered them all over the roster. The only caveat to that rule 100 years ago was that locomotives for Lines West would be numbered 5000 and above and Lines East locos were numbered below 5000.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's easy, the R160's can be numbered from 100-on to the first of the R62 fleet. Remember the R1-9's the R44's and 46's. Think about it, 660 cars as the base order with the option up to 1200. This would perfectly fit for the R160's. Anyway, why did they renumber the R44's and R46's?
Even simpler, they can number them starting with 10001 like they did in London with the 1938 Tube Stock. Lots of LU cars have five-digits today (1992, 1995, 1996 stock; D78 stock NDMs, etc.)
wayne
From what I heard, the TA wants all passenger equipment to have 4 digit numbers, and miscellaneous equipment have 2 or 3 digit numbers. This is reason behind the R44/46 renumbering several years ago.
7056-65 are on the road this week, 7066-75 are burn testing.
6926-30 arrived tonight, behind the usual trio of diesels.
Also take note, it would appear that the R-142's automated announcements are in the process of being updated. When the mods are done, a Red Square is placed under the number plate. The cars assigned to the 5 are getting these updated announcements.
-Stef
As my #2 train snaking into the tunnel, what comes snaking out? 6926-30. 6916-20 are also at the East on 6 Track.
Were you tooting your horn at 66th St by some chance? You've answered a question about what else has arrived. Much appreciated. I really need to sleep...
-Stef
That was me. Both uptown and downtown. BTW, guess who was on my train last night???
Doug Diamond? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh.
-Stef
Stef, you get the million dollar prize!
Yeah, I had just finished having a brew at a pub on Court Street (O'Keefe's) with Thurston and Simon Billis (Simon, thanks for the treat!). I took a #4 to Nevins St. My train (#2) comes into the station and the C/R yells, 'Hey Doug!'. It was Mike! And I thought he would've been on the #7.
Simon's flight from England came in earlier in the day. He met up with Thurston and they went Redbird spotting on the Flushing Line (too bad they found out a GO was in effect -- reason why Mike was not on the deuce). The GO in effect had the #7 running between QBoro Plaza and Main St. only (They had to take the R to QBoro-Plaza). I met up with them at Times Square after I went to an antique Post Card show. I suggested that we ride the New Lots Avenue Line since Simon was interested in railfanning on an El line in Brooklyn, and it sounded convenient enough to do.
[He met up with Thurston and they went Redbird spotting on the Flushing Line (too bad they found out a GO was in effect ...]
Actually it didn't turn out half bad. He liked the multiple changes we had to make, e.g. N to Queensboro Plaza, 7 to Main Street, 7 back to 74th, then R back to Times Square where we met back up with the BMTman (we did the post card show with him at The New Yorker Hotel before going on our adventure in Queens).
After the BMTman joined us we caught a R-142, then R-62s. Doubling back to Boroughall we dinned at a local bar suggested by the BMTman, a couple of tall ones & a man sized sandwich to put a nice cap on the day.
>>>He liked the multiple changes we had to make...<<<
ahhh....ONLY a tourist could love GOs. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
PS....i hope he had a good time
Yes, W-E did, e.g. at Main Street he found a work train to photograph, then I spyed the 2000 Sunway Series pair. Nose wrap was still in place ... he took several photos while I held the door :-(
Back at Times Sq we went over to the old connection between the 7th & Lex lines and I showed him the Knickerbocker door. The BMTman memtioned what we saw at Atlantic Ave & Juunius St.
So, we did a little more then just riding, Peggy would be proud of us.
I'm proud of you young man! Too bad you don't have time to show him around Branford. Speaking of Branford, Saturday is a big day for you. I'll keep my fingers crossed...
-Stef
We may have another Birthday Party Charter in the works ... next year, and thanks.
We spent THIRTEEN HOURS on the metals yesterday, Nov.11 - Simon, Mark Feinman, Peggy and myself. Does anyone want a transcript?
wayne
Uh, I'm not sure we can handle it :)
Sidestepping the whole megillah, I will note that we had a glorious Redbird #5 from Atlantic Avenue all the way to Dyre, R33 #9117, with an express run from 3rd Avenue to East 180th. It was superb, one of the best Redbird runs I've ever been on.
wayne
Wayne, did the Redbird set look like it got some recent exterior work (new spray painting particularly around the door pockets?). Would the car #8997 been a part of that consist?
I didn't note any of the other numbers (I had them all) except for the north motor, but come to think of it, they didn't look like they were in that bad a shape outside, just a little bubbling here and there. A couple of cars looked like areas had been touched up.
wayne
Yeah, then that's one of the sets worked on by CI Peter and Co.
Yeah, then that's one of the sets worked on by CI Peter and Co.
Well, if they did work on that trainset, then they did their work well, because this Redbird was in absolutely classic shape ride-wise; while not overpoweringly fast (due to the poky #4 ahead of us, we never really had a chance to unwind), it had a flawless ride and carriage to it, and the wheel noise (esp. coming into Mott Avenue) was absolutely operatic. Tell them not to touch a thing, it's perfect.
I think the south motor was #9067.
wayne
Did the aria sound anything like "Una Voce Poco Fa"?:)
Mark was with us on Monday, Oct. 14 along with Howard Fein.
I don't know about that, but it did hit its classic high "B". I was relieved to see that there was no track sprayer yet at Mott Avenue. I am dreading the day when they install them there. Later in the evening, on our way back from Dyre, we changed from #5 to #2 at Mott, and while we were waiting, a brand-new trainset of 7000-series Vultures (the 7061-7070 bunch, not consecutive) came roaring around the Jughandle, at what we thought to be a rather brisk pace, maybe doing 20MPH or so. LOTS of grinding and gnashing of wheels on rails.
wayne
Yep, you got it right - those wheels shriek at a nice high B - with a lower D# thrown in for good measure.
That set of Vultures (as you call them) was SMOKIN' on that curve!
--Mark
A couple of years ago (1998 I think) I was on a set of R26/28 mixed cars and he leaned into the curve like that; normally the T/O will treat that one with kid gloves, doing no more than, say 15 - don't forget, the only timer guarding it is BEFORE the hard right, so once he's free of it, he can lean on it, if he dares. They are more likely to juice it on the southbound side. Our own T/O on the way up to Dyre was very prudent; he took all the curves with care.
wayne
Correction on the numbers:
(N motor) 7060-7059-7058-7057-7056=7065-7064-7063-7062-7061 (S Motor)
wayne
Gee, why couldn't they couple the other two ends together?:)
How about a brief synopsis?
OK,E 34th-8th to Union Tpke, F to 179th St, F back to Roosevelt; then #7 to 111th (it ended there), #7 to Main, #7 exp back to GCT (R62A), met up with Mark, then shuttle to TSQ, #3 to 96th, #1 to 207th,#1 to 215th (Death Row), walked to 207 (A), R32 A all the way to Lefferts, Q10 bus to Jamaica Ave then J 121st to BJ, L down to Canarsie, L back to BJ, W across to Canal, then W to CI , (Nathans), bus to Brighton Bch, Slant Q to Atlantic, then Redbird #5 to Dyre, vulture #5 back to Mott, then #2 to Fulton, M up to Chambers, M back to Fulton, and a C to Penn and that was it.
wayne
CORRECTION - that should be "J" from Broadway Junction to Canal Street, south motor #4810. The "W" was a weak and weary Walrus - #5002.
wayne
Whew!
That ranks up there with what we did. Sparky, Fred, and I had a double dose since we did two days' worth of railfanning.
Did you bring up that rocket R-10 F ride while riding out to 179th?
BTW, those pics you took of me at Flushing Meadow Park turned out OK. I tell you, that scene of the Unisphere with the State Towers looming in the background hasn't changed much since 1965, except for the trees.
Also 6946-50 has been on the property for awhile as well.
Well now that the 2 line R142s consist of 6301-6700, then me thinks its time to start updating the annoucemnets on those bad boys............
will they get around to it?
SubBus have you notice the new announcements on the No.5 Line? A few sets it on the #5 Line a new female voice making the announcements. Alos she drags it out more but on the bright side the No.5 trains can be programed for Dyre to 149,125,Grand Central,Brooklyn Bridge, Atlantic Ave, Utica, New Lots and Reroute Via 7 Ave to Flatbush, Utica or New Lots. Some of the cars that have this or updated software R142 6951-60 7031-40 7056-60/7061-65 R142A 7751 and up. The other bad thing is the new voice will be the same on the #4,5,6 Lines.
Is the new voice already being used on one of those lines? I like the 6 voice the best. I am also glad they have the Via 7th Avenue option, does it actually say This is a Brooklyn bound 5 express train via 7th Avenue? Also, why not via 7th Avenue for Bronx bound trains?
Yes, I was on the 5 last friday and the female voice was making all the annoucements. Also last weekend when the s/b 5s were terminating at 149-GC, I did see a few R142s with the side destination signs set to 149St-GC, Bronx Local.
But the 5 already has up-to-date announcements! Why is the 5 getting a minor cosmetic upgrade while the 2 is still making 16-month-old announcements that no longer apply?
because they haven't got around to it yet
Obviously. I'm asking why a cosmetic upgrade on the 5 has priority over a long overdue corrective upgrade on the 2.
because a cosmetic upgrade is quicker to be done than a technical upgrade. technical upgrades take a little longer. also who said anything about a cosmetic upgrade? if there is one i surely have not seen it yet unless you are talking about the add-ins of ad windows into the interiors which has been going on since last year.
No, the cosmetic changes I'm referring to are the minor changes to the announcement system that have been implemented on some 6 trains and were in place on the 4 from the start. Updates to the content of the announcements would seem to come for free, so to speak, so why not make the cosmetic upgrade first where the content needs updating, too?
Here's the next mystery photo.
One clue, the photo says Novermber 1965. It looks to be an IRT train, but I'm not good at the old trains.
Well, there's no mystery involved in the next one (161st St/Jerome), but I really like the shot! (Although I don't know the class of cars - again, the oldest trains I am familiar with are the R10's on the IND, or the R12's on the IRT). I thought it was an interesting shot. (The train's destination sign says "Atlantic Ave", BTW).
Top one is looking NORTH from Fordham Road as the Third Avenue El swings off Webster Avenue, heading south onto the Bronx Zoo spur and into Fordham Road stop over the NYC Harlem line ... one below obviously, southbound Jerome Avenue at Junkee Stadium. :)
Thanks for the info, I guess that sums it up pretty exactly. I had trouble with that one.
one below obviously, southbound Jerome Avenue at Junkee Stadium
Hmmm, a Mets fan possibly? "Sheat" Stadium better than Junkee Stadium?:)
What can I say? I lived in the Bronx and had to endure those boorish Steingrabber lovers who littered our streets, kept our cops too busy and other loud and obnoxious behavior. Yes, I've always been a Mets fan. They're *civilized* ... reason enough. Besides, the Mets are the patron saints of lost causes and have soul. Junkees have cash. :)
LOL....
Shea Stadium should be renamed the Toilet Bowl, the way the Mets have been playing lately. When Tom Seaver was traded in 1977, fans began calling it Grant's Tomb.
Just in case Chris wanted to know the type of cars, the top one is the Worlds Fair Low-V's while the bottom one at Yankee Stadium I believe is a Low V but could possibly be a High V. Anyone know for sure? I'm still not positive how to tell them apart.
The Third Avenue El in the BRONX did a consist of five cars, USUALLY two WF LoV's, a standard LoV TRAILER in the middle, then two more WF LoV's ... in the alternative, it would be Two WF LoV's and Two motor standard LoV's with an unpowered trailer ALWAYS in the middle - this was done to control the WEIGHT owing to the poor condition of the El below Fordham Road.
Picture of typical "monkey in the middle" LoV
Matching shot of the curve into Fordham from the north looking south of a typical consist
The shot on the Jerome line was the standard LoV's ... hope this helps ... moo! :)
The "monkey in the middle" Low-V trailer #4902 has been on display in the Transit Museum since 1976.
Bill "Newkirk"
WOWSERS! They KEPT that wreck? Hahahahahahahahahahaha ... Sorry, that car number I remembered as "FRANKENTRAIN" ... GRAB THE NEXT! :)
Those are definately Low-Vs. I can tell by the doors. The doors on the Low-Vs have one large panel under the windows whereas the doors on the High-Vs have three smaller panels under the windows.
>>Just in case Chris wanted to know the type of cars, the top one is the Worlds Fair Low-V's while the bottom one at Yankee Stadium I believe is a Low V but could possibly be a High V. Anyone know for sure? I'm still not positive how to tell them apart.<<
High-V's, decked roofed or sloped end roofed cars never ran on the Jerome Ave. line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Geez, the first mystery photo was right in my old neighborhood....Webster Avenue and 194th Street! It's a string of the 1938 IRT cars on the Third Avenue "el" crossing over the then-New York Central RR. Photo was taken from the pedestrian overcrossing of the NYC. Fordham University is on the right.
I have heard he has alot of stuff on ebay. I want to see what he has what is his ebay account?? Typed in Subway Al nuttin came up
Try Subwayal or Subwayal@aol.com
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not sure if anybody pointed this out, but since I haven't seen mention of this, at least one of the M shuttles today was an R143. Sighted car #8114 on the middle track at Myrtle signed up as "M."
They have been running there as weekend OPTO shuttles for some time.
Bill "Newkirk"
today i rode the weekend M shuttle on the R143 and quite a smooth ride
on the el,s of myrtle av and diffrent then on the L line too.
til next time
Effective 9/8/02, leaving Metropolitan from 2:04 AM Saturday until 1:44 AM Monday, all M shuttle trains are R143 equipment with one person train operation.
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as i toured Staten Island, hands down it is the hardest borough to get around because their isn't a second or third rail that will send it across to the other side of the island. not that the buses don't get the job done, but rails are faster as most of us in here do agree. and its more convenient because of the fact that the buses hunts throught traffice to complete its route. quite annoying. anyway why not build more rail lines in S.I.? why wouldn't it be allowed? i know there wouldn't be a stretch of the 1/9 into s.i. because from what i heard, the people there would scream and go ballistic, but shouldn't they create another line or two or three or four for the sake of making the island more easier to get around?
It is about time that SI was connected to the rest of NYC. Maybe by the 100th aniversary of the abandonment of the Narrows tunnel, it should started again and this time finished. Staten Island is part of New York and should be connected to the subway system. Then new lines can be built. New lines will be demanded.
What do you expect from NIMBY's?
If there was a subway that went to Manhattan,
they're afraid the neighborhood will go.
If the subway goes thru Brooklyn,
the trip will take too long or roundabout.
If the subway goes thru Jersey,
they'll have to pay at least 2 fares.
If there is no subway
they feel abondoned by Manhattan.
How much of Staten Island did you explore? Why not look at a topographic map, if you feel that an in person survey would take too long because of traffic jams.
i went basically through the northern part. i was looking at maps and all that. i think it would do S.I. some good to to make 3 more lines stemming from Saint George and going across the the island. let the lines go to the busiest areas of S.I. where traffic is a bitch and transportation is hard to find. now, one reason i think this will be hard is from the stories i hear about the S.I. public (may not be true. many wouldn't want rails in their backyards, or they want to keep certain people out of their neighborhoods and all that. so to make a another rail line would cause massive problems in the preliminary stages of establishing its routes and stops. based on another thing i heard that the Poeple of S.I. were pissed at the fact the Verazzano Br. build (another flam i heard)so based on that, i believe that building more rail lines will cause conflict. but i am optimistic that they will make them
i went basically through the northern part
What do you consider the "northern part"? Richmond Terrace or some streets further inland.
to make 3 more lines stemming from Saint George and going across the the island
There's already one rail line from St. George that crosses the island to Tottenville in a southwest direction. There used to be one that crossed the island to Port Ivory to the west that could be revived.
What other lines are you contemplating?
let the lines go to the busiest areas of S.I. where traffic is a bitch and transportation is hard to find. now
Just where might these places be and what route would they take from St. George?
that where the sirt i running is what i considered the east side of S.I. the Farthest i got was Staten Island Mall somewhere around Hylan and Arthur Kill (is that right? can't remeber how it is spelled). now i am thinking of lines stemming from the Ferry Stop, or St. George, then it goes down the N.J. shore side (the where you can see N.J. and another one that goes down the middle, (maybe using Hylan Boulevard as a viaduct. and go to th south portion of the island reaching close to New Dorp or something. the west side line i would know where to end that one yet. and one line crossing the island connecting all 3 lines. probably in a meandering "S" curve.
Part of the issue on Staten Island is vertical.
Both Victory Blvd and Forest Avenue would make good candidates for subways, but the uphill grades from St. George would make an intersting engineering challenge. Not impossible, but only interesting.
The existing SIRT plans its trains to make connections with the boats, and it does not appear that more trains would carry more people: Ergo: 3tph!
Not really subway traffic levels, Id say!
Elias
Staten Island would benefit from (a) better feeder bus service to SIRT stations, (2) increased SIRT train frequency, and, as a long shot, (3) revival of the North Shore line. Construction of new rail transit lines would be far too expensive for the ridership they'd generate.
"Construction of new rail transit lines would be far too expensive for the ridership they'd generate. "
Surface LRVs to St. George might be interesting.
Eliminate the parking lanes on Victory and Forest
replace them with dedicated LRV tracks
might be worth doing.
No more than that though.
Elias
The real answer for Staten Island is bus rapid transit, because buses from a variety of routes could use it. That's what I'd do with the north shore rail line. Provided that it had pull out stations for the main route, other routes could run north-south in the north shore, get on the busway, and run express to the ferry terminal.
Other BRT busways could be built in the rights of way of the unbuilt Willowbrook and Richmond Expressways, for better cross island bus service and runs up over run in the Bayonne Bridge, down South Avenue and Richmond Avenue in new, bus-only lanes, down Capadino Blvd throgh Miller Field and onto and through Great Kills Park, and in new lanes on the Staten Island Expressway.
The entire local bus network could be reorganized around these bus-only rights of way, with specific routes stopping at the "stations" along them, and others running on local streets for part of the trip and on busways for the rest. And express buses on the busways could go straight onto Manhattan without a new rail tunnel.
The real answer for Staten Island is bus rapid transit, because buses from a variety of routes could use it. That's what I'd do with the north shore rail line.
Would that be any cheaper in the long run than rebuilding the rail line? Sure, the capital costs of BRT would be much lower, but the operating costs would be substantially higher.
(Would that be any cheaper in the long run than rebuilding the rail line? Sure, the capital costs of BRT would be much lower, but the operating costs would be substantially higher.)
If you can fill an eight car subway train, then rail is cheaper to operate. But how many people can walk to that line? Note enough to fill more than an articulated bus.
If you have a BRT line, other bus lines could go on it as well. Staten Island isn't dense enough for a full rail network. But it is dense enough for BRT.
How is SI a republic? I think you're mistaking it with a boro. If anything, it could use subway access. It's so boring there.
"If anything, it could use subway access. It's so boring there. "
Way out in the sticks...
That boro does not need a subway.
It needs a burro!
: ) Elias
Speaking of a burro from the boro,
LIRR Railroad Joke.
This is a transcript
between a commuter and the
railroad company, regarding services of the latter.
"Gentlemen:
I have been riding trains daily for the
last twenty-two years, and the service on your line
seems to be getting worse every day. I am tired of
standing in the aisle all the time on a 14-mile trip.
I think the transportation system is worse than that
enjoyed by people 2,000 years ago.
Yours truly,
A Commuter"
The Reply to the above:
"Dear Sir:
We received your letter with reference to
the shortcomings of our service and believe you are
somewhat confused in your history. The only mode of
transportation 2,000 years ago was by foot.
Sincerely,
LIRR
The Counter-Reply was:
"Gentlemen:
I am in receipt of your letter, and I
think you are the ones who are confused in your
history. If you will refer to the Bible, Book of
David, 9th Chapter, you will find that Balaam rode to
town on his ass...
That, gentlemen, is something I have not been able to
do on your train in the last twenty-two years!
Yours truly,
A Commuter"
The Counter Reply was:
Dear Sir:
We are sending you one donkey for your riding pleasure.
Note: Hay, grain and water are not included. You will need to supply
those.
Sincerely, LIRR"
LMAO!! Thanks for the joke! :-D
Even the borough of "The Bronx" omits the "The" in its county name.
Borough of Manhattan - New York County
Borough of Brooklyn - Kings County
Borough of Queens - Queens County
Borough of The Bronx - Bronx County
Borough of Staten Island - Richmond County
First off, Bronx County was named after the Borough. The Borough of the Bronx was in New York County, when the Greater NY was formed in 1898.
Secondly, until very recently it was the Borough of Richmond not Borough of Staten Island.
Third, what was your question? :-)
Third, what was your question? :-)
It's been a slow night here on LI :-)
why have too many names for one borough? i think it confuses people. or maybe not. why is S.I. called Richmond anyway? and why Brooklyn is also Called King's? why did The Bronx replace Bronck's?
At the time counties were established in 1683, Brooklyn was only a small part of Kings County.
And Staten Island is the Dutch name, Richmond is the British name. The name change didn't exactly take after 350 years.
ok. before there was a Kings County, in the dutch times there was Breuklen. so i guess the british dwarfed it and called most of it kings
ok. before there was a Kings County, in the dutch times there was Breuklen. so i guess the british dwarfed it and called most of it kings
Sorry, WRONG
Brooklyn only expanded to include all of Kings County in 1896, it was never as large as it is now. Not in Dutch times, not in Native American times, not in Dinosaurian times (really Ichtyosaurian, since LI was underwater).
The dutch had no collective name for the settlements of Breuckelen, Boswijck, Vlackebos, Nieuw Utrecht, Nieuw Amersfoordt and Gravesend beyond that they were all part of the Nassau Eylandt and the Colony of Nieuw Nederland.
Breuckelen was founded on a marsh along what is now Fulton Street at what would eventually be Hoyt and Bond Streets.
In 1683 when New York Colony was divided into "Shires and Countyes," Brooklyn became a township whose boundaries were the Upper New York Bay, what would later be 60th Street, a diagonal from 60th and 7th that entered Greenwood Cemetery at 9th Avenue, then through the cemetery, along Terrace Place, through Prospect Park, along a winding route south of Montgomery Street and later north of East New York Avenue, and then via Broadway and Division Avenue to the East River and along the East River shoreline and into the middle of the bay to the origin.
This would remain the boundary of Brooklyn for 171 years.
In 1816, the Village of Brooklyn was formed in the Town of Brooklyn. Its boundaries were along District Street (the future Atlantic Avenue), Red Hook Lane (which now runs only from Fulton to Boerum Place), and then the line of Red Hook Lane to the East River.
In 1834, the City of Brooklyn replaced the Town of Brooklyn.
In 1854, Brooklyn took over the City of Williamsburgh and the Town of Bushwick. If you extend the east-west part of the Brooklyn-Queens boundary through Highland/Forest Park westward, it eventually aligns with the old southern boundary of Brooklyn north of ENY Avenue. This, extended to the County line was now the boundary of B'klyn.
In 1886, the Town of New Lots was annexed to Brooklyn. Now the border turned off of its original southern path near Howard Avenue and followed Hunterfly Road (look for Hunterfly Place between Atlantic Avenue and Herkimer Street), and eventually the Fresh Creek, and then turned southwest to follow East 103rd Street.
In 1894, New Utrecht, Flatbush and Gravesend joined Brooklyn, leaving Flatlands as the sole holdout in Kings County. Flatlands boundaries were from approximately Foster Avenue and East 17th Street along a slight diagonal until it reached Ocean Avenue (now Olean Street, not THAT Ocean Avenue), then followed old Ocean Avenue to Kings Highway and then along the Gerritsen Creek into the Rockaway Inlet and Jamaica Bay, then along the New Lots border to Hunterfly Road, then along a diagonal that crosses Flatlands Neck Road (Kings Highway) between Church Avenue and Beverly Road and eventually becoming more east-west before hitting the origin.
Flatlands succumbed in 1896.
Brooklyn became part of New York City in 1898.
cool. i learned it differently thats why i asked.
Go, Pig!
And to add to the confusion for those not from the area....mail going to folks in Queens gets addressed by the neighborhood name, doesn't it?
the same thing i was gonna ask. it is weird that people have to use their farm names to locate them in Queens. i live in Long Island City/Astoria. sometimes i just use Queens because it is just damn easier.
Unless they've changed it very recently, there is no Post Office of "Queens, NY." They still use the town names (Jamaica, LIC, Flushing)-- know I missed a few) and within them, a lor of people use the community names, which were once villages and hamlets.
And why not? Out in the 'burbs (and most of the U.S.), post offices name the community. It would be entirely possible to send all mail to "Nassau, NY" plus the Zip Code, but why? Coney Island and Flatbush and Brownsville are as distinct communities as Roosevelt and Mineola and Freeport, so why not let people identify more closely with their communities. With zip codes there shouldn't be any doubt where to send the mail.
THere was a thread about this a while back. I was always wondering the same thing. In Brooklyn, people seem to lump the communities into just
"Brooklyn, NY 11222". You never see:
"Park Slope, NY, 11222" or "Bedford-Stuyvesant, NY 11222".
Wheras in Queens you hardly ever see just "Queens, NY 11333". You usually see:
Glendale, NY 11333 or Douglaston, NY 11333.
In Manhattan you always see: New York, NY 10000. You never see:
Chelsea, NY 10000 or Greenwich Village, NY 10000
I kind of like the Queens version, calling it by the community name. It's a lot less vague than just saying Brooklyn, NY, etc.
Well, they put the community names on subway terminals after decades of trying to wipe them out, so we can always hope...
It very important to use the Commuinty Name. Home Depot Expo puts out flyers stating their Queens store is in Queens NY. It gives the street name but since Queens a big borough I had no clue where it was until I drove by there tring to get on the Grand Central Parkway .
It very important to use the Commuinty Name. Home Depot Expo puts out flyers stating their Queens store is in Queens NY. It gives the street name but since Queens a big borough I had no clue where it was until I drove by there trying to get on the Grand Central Parkway .
There is another one on Rockaway Blvd near Aqueduct Race Track. IIRC there is another one on Woodhaven Blvd near the LIRR Montauk Branch.
I am refering to Home Depot Expo not Home Depot it self. They are 2 different stores yet own buy the same firm.
I always write "Queens, NY". It always gets there.
For me it's about Queens pride, and NYC pride for that matter. Some of the neioghborhood names are so obscure (Glendale, NY; Neponsit, NY or my own Oakland Gardens, NY) that to an out-of-towner they sound like they could be upstate or on Long Island or something. Queens actually means something!
For the record, the main PO's in Queens are Jamaica (114xx), Flushing (113xx), Long Island City (111xx) and Far Rockaway (116xx), as well as the section of Floral Park (110xx) that overlaps into Queens. They correspond somewhat to the old townships, but not exactlty. The Rockaways were never their own town, they were either part of Hempstead or Jamaica. Also there was a Town of Newtown in the northwest that is now divided between the Flushing and LIC PO's. (Long Island City itself was a city.) Anyway, the most "correct" thing to do in Queens is to write whichever main PO that services your neighborhood. But like I said I usually write Queens.
Though I've noticed that Queens isn't the only place where neighborhood names are often found in the addresses. I have often seen "Riverdale, NY".
:-) Andrew
Anyway, the most "correct" thing to do in Queens is to write whichever main PO that services your neighborhood. But like I said I usually write Queens.
I lived in Ridgewood, Queens for a while, and always used Ridgewood, NY 11385. (although when I was younger it was 11227 - but that's another story about half of Ridgewood being in both Brooklyn and Queens). Anyway, many times bulk mail, etc would come to me with my Ridgewood address and "Flushing, NY 11385" on the envelope.
Now I understand why that was done, (for the reasons given in your post), but I find that even more confusing than just "Queens" NY. To make matters worse in the case of Ridgewood, which zip code is 11385, The "real" Flushing's (people who live in Flushing) zip code is 11358.
Personally, I don't like using just "Queens, NY". I like the town identities better.
Personally, I don't like using just "Queens, NY". I like the town identities better.
I agree with you there - I always write "Astoria, NY" - I really like the small town feel it has.
In the 60's, when in Rockaway, we used to address our mail as:
"Edgemere, L.I., N.Y."
I have a cousin who still uses:
"Manhattan Beach, Brooklyn, NY" plus his zip code.
When living in Boston, many people with 021xx zips used their post office (local) name, rather than just Boston, MA. For instance, I lived in 02135, which is inside the city proper, and I used:
"Brighton, MA 02135"
though my junk mail all said Boston.
Now I live in Buffalo in the 142xx zip codes. These are all supposed to be addressed as Buffalo, NY (the post office even mails out reminders!). But this doesn't stop people, particularly outside the city proper, from using other local names.
In the 60's, when in Rockaway, we used to address our mail as:
"Edgemere, L.I., N.Y."
To me that's odd on a couple of different fronts:
1. Queens is not Long Island.
2. Long Island is not a city. It is not a state. It is a region of New York State. I don't see people in Westchester writing "Hartsdalle, HV, NY" (for "Hudson Valley")
But I've even seen "NY" ommited in favor of "LI" on addresses.
I'm against it.
:-) Andrew
All true. But that's how it was done.
I speculate that most of early Queens history, and certainly Rockaway history, was tied more to Long Island than the City. Even in the 60's, people from Eastern Queens would still say they were from Long Island, rather than the city, or "Queens".
On the other hand, Brooklyn seemed more homogenized, with some exceptions, particularly Canarsie and beach areas east of Coney Island, as to where people would say they lived.
To me that's odd on a couple of different fronts:
1. Queens is not Long Island.
That's odd, the last time I looked, there were no bridges between Queens and Nassau. Brooklyn and Queens ARE Long Island.
Don't you read these boards? Queens and Kings (Brooklyn) are on Royal Island, where (American) Pigs belongs.
:-D Andrew
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>1. Queens is not Long Island.<<<
Yes it is. Long Island is composed of 4 counties, Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk. It is a goegraphic reality, like it or not.
Peace,
ANDEE
That is why I route for the Mets as they play on Long Island. They were put on Long Island for the people of Long Island.So that makes it Long Island's home team. The Brooklyn Dodgers played in Brooklyn. Brooklyn is part of Long Island too.
Everyone should pay attention to the sign when leaving the Midtown Tunnel east bound the sign says "Welcome to Long Island".
Everyone should pay attention to the sign when leaving the Midtown Tunnel east bound the sign says "Welcome to Long Island".
It's gone. Been replaced with a standard NYCDOT "Welcome to Queens" sign.
BTW Notice that Brooklyn HAS to be different from the other boroughs, and has substituted a series of "Welcome" signsm with cheeky slogans for the standard "welcome signs that Manhattan, Queens, The Bronx and (presumably) Staten Island uses.
:-) Andrew
Why did they take the sign down? (Welcome to LI) Did it confuse people? Guess it confuses the people that are 1st generation here. I am a 3rd generation Long Islander and I do not say Penn Station when I am going into New York.
Well it was an oddball sign. "Long Island" is not a governmental entity. Just a land mass. It might have given the impression that you'd just crossed a state line (when in fact you're still in the same city!) and anyway it was inconsisntently placed in one place only. There was no such sign comming off the Verrazano, Brooklyn-Battery, Brookyln Bridge, Manny B, Willie B, Queensboro, Roosevelt Island Br, Triboro, Whitestone, or Throgs Neck Bridgem or any of the ferries for that matter.
BTW there isn't even a "Welcome to New York" sign comming off the Bridgeport-Port Jefferson Ferry. I wonder what's up with that. (There is one arriving from the Cross Sound Ferry in Orient Point.)
:-) Andrew
>>>...I do not say Penn Station when I am going into New York. <<<
What DO you say? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I always say Round Trip to New York.
Psst!
Brooklyn and Queens are BOTH part of Long Island!
Originally Brooklyn was only one town in the county known as Kings. Others were New Utrecht, Flatbush, among others. Brooklyn gradually annexed these towns thus becoming the only "town" in Kings County.
Even today, Queens has their "town names" and has more than one main post office such as L I City, Flushing, Jaamica, among others.
Manhaatn alwasy was the only town in New York County.
Manhaatn alwasy was the only town in New York County.
BZZZT!
The Town of New Harlem existed until about 1835.
Also, you must mean New York was the only CITY in NY County, since New York was never a town and there was never a municipality called Manhattan.
I think that Greenwich Village was a separate town at one time also.
Look up an old map of Manhattan Island. There were several towns there.
There may have been many settlements, but we haven't established that they were towns as New York State defines them.
The only one I know about is New Harlem.
"Brooklyn gradually annexed these towns thus becoming the only "town" in Kings County."
Brooklyn was first a town. Roughly the area around Jay Street today. It grew. Annexed several other towns in the process. (New Lotts, Williamsburgh, Flatbush ect) Finally Brooklyn took up all of Kings County, NY. It then turned into a City. It was a large city in its own right. (I've always wondered why "Brooklyn" Dodgers?) In 1898 it was annexed in turn by NYC.
Up here at SUNY-Binghamton, 4 long years ago during freshman orientation, the following was noticed by me when the other people in my orientation group introduced themselves:
(example)
I'm Tom from Buffalo, New york
Marti from Watertown, new york
Jon from Livingston, new jersey
Alan from Brooklyn, new york
Justin from Jericho, *Long Island*
Dana from Islip, *Long Island*
Sam from fairfield, connecticut
Mitch from Hewlett, *Long Island*
Stefanie from Staten Island, New York
I don't think I was the only one who noticed that Long Island had been elevated to a State!
-West End Scott
It is obvious that both Queens and Brooklyn are part of Long Island. Prior to urbanization (and certainly well prior to incorporation with Greater New York), both areas were characterized by economies and patterns of ethnic settlement similar to the areas further east on Long Island. The Brooklyn Historical Society was in named the Long Island Historical Society until about 10 years ago, when they changed their name in an effort to improve their appeal to New York City based philanthropists and foundations. Finally, I also remember the LI on mail from the early 1960's. I think that in those days the mail was sent to NYC for sorting and distribution out to Long Island.
I also remember the LI on mail from the early 1960's. I think
that in those days the mail was sent to NYC for sorting and distribution out to Long Island.
Certainly the fact that Kings, Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk ZIP codes all begin in "11" means something in terms of mail operations.
(The following is just because I feel like shwoing off...)
110-NW Nassau County and a tiny bit of eastern Queens
111-NW Queens
112-Brooklyn/Kings County (all)
113-N. Queens
114-S. Queens
115-W. Nassau County
116-Extreme Southern Queens (The Rockaways, if you will)
117-Eastern Nassau and Wetern Suffolk Counties
118-Eastern Nassau County (oddly just Hicksville and its satelite POs at Plainview and Old Bethpage.)
119-Eastern Suffolk County.
:-) Andrew
And LIU's main campus is in Downtown Brooklyn!
The post office does make some distinction between LI (four counties) and the rest of NY because it gives the 11--- zip codes to the post offices on the island.
Horrendously long discussions with friends from the (cringe!) suburbs have yielded the following distinction....
Brooklyn and Queens are located *on* the geological feature called Long Island, however they are neither "part of" Long Island nor on "The Island".
-West End Scott
"I always write "Queens, NY". It always gets there."
Long as you put the correct zip code after it.
You should always use the right ZIP code on anything you send anywhere, but even if you don't it should get there if you write "Queens, NY". The address system in Queens assures that addresses don't repeat, with the first part of the hyphenated number representing the number of the nearest cross-street to the north or west. For instance, there is only one 41-61 Kissena Blvd. in Queens.
Whatever the case, you should always use the right ZIP code anyway.
:-) Andrew
You have, perhaps, met a location where the same numerical address exists twice on the same street?
New York -- the city as a single entity.
You could write "Arden, PA" and the letter would probably
still be delivered without hinderance, so long as you provided
the correct zip code. As each piece of mail enters the postal
system, some clerk has about 4 seconds to look at the envelope and
key in the zip code. Thereafter the little barcode that gets printed
on the bottom routes the mail. The state and municipality are only
looked at if there is some problem with the zip code.
>>> As each piece of mail enters the postal system, some clerk has about 4 seconds to look at the envelope and key in the zip code. Thereafter the little barcode that gets printed on the bottom routes the mail. The state and municipality are only looked at if there is some problem with the zip code. <<<
Actually the clerk looks at it only if an OCR is unable to read the zip code, or any bar code on the envelope. Those letters without a zip code go into the box marked, "we will get to it when we can" unless the person reading zip codes knows the correct zip code. The box goes to an operator who types in the address to a computer which bar codes the zip code onto the envelope, and it returns to the system with a one or two day delay. If the computer cannot put a zip code on the envelope, it will probably be returned for insufficient address.
Tom
The Rockaways were never their own town, they were either part of Hempstead or Jamaica.
They were part of Hempstead.
In addition to the answers Stephen Bauman already gave you...
Borough of Manhattan - New York County
As Steve already said, New York County (Manhattan & part of The Bronx) was the City, Manhattan the island until Consolidation.
Borough of Brooklyn - Kings County
Kings and Queens Counties were obviously a named pair. Kings was not coextensive with Brooklyn until Flatlands was the last town annexed by Brooklyn in 1896, only two years before Greater New York created the "borough" of Brooklyn as Kings County.
Borough of Queens - Queens County
Originally consisting of what is now Queens plus Nassau County, there was no consolidated town or city of Queens at Consolidation, as there was of Brooklyn.
Borough of The Bronx - Bronx County
"To The or Not To The" is a nitpick, and this question answered by Steve.
Borough of Staten Island - Richmond County
It was Richmond Borough and County until recently. Back when I was writing about the SIRT in 1965, Staten Island bus routes had "R" prefixes.
So where did "Staten Island" come from?
So where did "Staten Island" come from?
It was a plot by an IRA member to de-Anglicize New York City.
The 1860's Italian rebel (nation-builder) Giribaldi fled to Staten Island during a part of his struggle and temporary retreat.
The name "Staten Island" came from the Dutch "Staaten Eyelandt" for the Dutch Parliament - the Staaten (States) General.
What would you consider to be the First Staten, Second Staten and Third Staten?
In France, the Church, the Nobles, the People. Don't know if Holland worked that way.
Oh ... the Fourth Staten ... Talk Radio.
There is also one down around the southern tip of South America
A Staten Island? Long ferry trip.
When Varazanno sailed up though upper New York Bay he pointed west (northwestish) and said "Is-dat-en Island?"
LMAO!
Ouch! :)
Heard that one... but we'll give ya a rim shot anyway! ;)
Yeah, and when the Myrtle Av El was torn down, the residents along Myrtle Av all sang the Christmas song "Noel, Noel".
Thank ya! I'll be here all week! Hey, try the fish! :)
At one time long, long ago (1840?) New Jersey had a claim to Staten Island and there was some boat race to settle the dispute.
No lawyers?
At one time long, long ago (1840?) New Jersey had a claim to Staten Island and there was some boat race to settle the dispute.
1687...
"Staten Island [...] became a curiosity after England's Duke of York claimed Nieuw Amsterdam for the Crown. The former Dutch colony included large parts of New Jersey and New York. A dispute promptly arose as to whether the New York or New Jersey colony was entitled to the island. Geographically it was impossible to conceive of it belonging to anything but New Jersey, a conclusion New York was not going to accept. So the Duke declared that whosoever could get a boat to circumnavigate the island within twenty-four hours could have it. In 1687 Captain Christopher Billop turned the trick and the island, named "Richmond" by the Duke, was a part of New York -- almost.
--Staten Island Rapid Transit
Copyright 1965, 2001
This suggests it was not a race, per se.
It was Richmond Borough and County until recently. Back when I was writing about the SIRT in 1965, Staten Island bus routes had "R" prefixes.
Thank the United States Postal Service and some confused/clueless customers in part for that change -- too many pieces of mail, mainly those dealing with official business and addressed to "Richmond County" were being sent either by the Post Office or by underlings at the source who didn't know any better to (of course) the Virginia state capitol. Changing the name of the county to "Staten Island" removed that problem.
Don't send any mail to Portland... Or Brooklyn, MD, or Brooklyn, OH, or ...
Brooklyn in Maryland is a part of Baltimore City and has Baltimore, MD 21225 as its Zip Code. Been that way since 1918.
They didn't have zip codes in 1918.
Well aware of it.
And in 1918 you could mail a letter in Parkville in the morning and it would be delivered the same day in Brooklyn. It only cost one cent.
Brooklyn was in Anne Arundel County until the 1918 annexation put it in Baltimore City. Some of the folks that live there (It's in the part of the City that is the most out-of the way part) feel they are are ignored and want to get out of the City and go back to Anne Arundel County
Fast forward to the 1950's: Use of Zone numbers began.
For example: Where I live is in Baltimore City. In the 1950's we began adding 14 to the address, as in Baltimore 14, Md.
Somewhere around 1960 we were put in a new code, 34.
Around 1964 the Post Office began the Zone Improvement Program, or ZIP Code and Baltimore got to add 212 to the Zone number and put it after the City & State, as in Baltimore, MD 21234
To keep this on topic, streetcar service to Brooklyn, MD began in 1896.
And in 1918 you could mail a letter in Parkville in the morning and it would be delivered the same day in Brooklyn. It only cost one cent
Don't you mean a postcard? The first class mail rate was three cents practically forever (although I believed it was dropped to two cents for a little while in the 1800s) before it began rising in (IIRC) the mid-50s.
An historic curiosity is that the mint made three cents coins (silver or copper--the silver were tiny) for a while to make purchasing stamps easier. There were also three dollar gold coins around Civil War times to purchase 100 stamps, but these are pretty scarce, and I don't know how much they were actually used.
The three cent coins were first silver, then nickel, just like the five cent pieces.
There was also a four dollar gold coin, but it is so rare that it is classified as "unique", only a single digit number of them exist.
:-) Andrew
There was also a four dollar gold coin
Wasn't that called a "Stella" but meaning as in "stellar" or star. But I can't figure it--how many four pointed stars have you ever seen?
Maybe it was named for Stanley Kowalsky's wife? Don't mind me, I need more coffee. :)
This is true! My father found a silver three cent coin dated 1853 on the floor of the 34th Street BMT platform during afternoon rush. Probably in the early 1960's he found it. He still has it and I saw it many times. He is not a coin collector. The coin has what looks like a Jewish star of David on the whole of one side.
Five cent silver coins were called "half dimes".
Five cent silver coins were called "half dimes".
Half dimes coexisted for some time with nickels. I think the first nickel was minted in 1867, while the half dimes persisted until sometime in the 1870's.
:-) Andrew
My father found a silver three cent coin dated 1853 on the floor of the 34th Street BMT platform during afternoon rush.
Nice find! They also made a Nickel Three Cent Piece -
I've been visiting the USA for 34 years (next trip, tomorrow) and I never knew what ZIP (in ZIP codes) stood for before.
Zone Imtrovement Program....But, er, how does numbering zones improve them? A slum is still a slum even with a number! Maybe numbering places is cheaper than urban renewal.......
Fytton.
I've been visiting the USA for 34 years (next trip, tomorrow) and I never knew what ZIP (in ZIP codes) stood for before.
Zone Imtrovement Program....But, er, how does numbering zones improve them? A slum is still a slum even with a number! Maybe numbering places is cheaper than urban renewal.......
Zip codes are strictly a way of expediting mail delivery. They have nothing to do with urban renewal and aren't intended as such.
Before there were ZIP codes there were numbered zones as Dan Lawrence pointed out.
The Zone Improvement Program improved the zone system for mail delivery. As Peter Rosa said, they have nothing to do with urban renewal.
In any case, to advertise ZIP codes, the Post Office stole the Manic Mailman character from Roger Myers Sr. and renamed him Mr. Zip.
They eventually had to pay Roger Meyers Jr. money for that.
Indeed. Then came Ziptronic machines, where an operator had to read a zip code and key in the first three numbers so the machine would sort the letter or postcard into the right bundle for shipment. Letters, manila envelopes and cards were put in front of the operator at about 1 per 1.5 seconds. This is mechanized mail sorting.
Then came optical character readers.
Today the nine-digit zip code can sort a letter automatically down to the block where it's headed.
Today the nine-digit zip code can sort a letter automatically down to the block where it's headed.
And, depending on where you live, to the exact house or apartment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That I didn't know!
Believe it or else, but the 4 digits in the Zip + 4 identifies what side of a street or what floor of an apartment your address is.
My Zip + 4 is 6938, and everybody on the north side of Oakcrest Avenue has 6938 as theirs.
Zip + 4's for PO boxes is the box number. If less than 4 four digits, a zero is added to the box number. If more than 4 digits, one of the numbers is dropped. Example: The address for Baltimore Streetcar Museum is P.O.Box 4881, Baltimore MD 21211-4881
My 60 unit apartment building has at least 4 plus 4 designations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Zip + 4's for PO boxes is the box number.
Not always true.
I once rented a PO box, my address was:
P.O. Box 2022
New York, NY 10021-0051
Also, zip codes don't always tell the real story. I have a friend who lives in Marble Hill and his zip code is 10463...a Bronx zip code right (actually it's a Riverdale P.O. I believe). Yet Marble Hill is part of Manhattan and officially he lives and votes in New York County despite the fact he lives in the Bronx. Or does he?
Also, zip codes don't always tell the real story. I have a friend who lives in Marble Hill and his zip code is 10463...a Bronx zip code right (actually it's a Riverdale P.O. I believe). Yet Marble Hill is part of Manhattan and officially he lives and votes in New York County despite the fact he lives in the Bronx. Or does he?
Marble Hill is definitely in the "special case" category. You can probably find some discussion of its status in the Subtalk Archives.
>>> Believe it or else, but the 4 digits in the Zip + 4 identifies what side of a street or what floor of an apartment your address is. <<<
The first five digits of the ZIP get the mail to a local post office. The purpose of the extra four digits is to help the mail carriers organize their routes. Before they leave the post office, each carrier sorts his mail into pigeonholes according to what part of the route it is going to, and then arranges it in his bag so he does not have to paw through the whole bag at each address to find the mail going there. Regular mail carriers probably do not need the extra four digits because they know the addresses on their route, but it is a big help for vacation relief carriers.
Tom
My Zip + 4 is 6938, and everybody on the north side of Oakcrest Avenue has 6938 as theirs.
That may be true where you are - sharing a zip+4 - but where I live in New Jersey 07724-1302 uniquely identifies my house, and my parents' home in North Carolina is uniquely identified as 28027-9654. My North Carolina home is 27508-0367, but that is a P.O. Box; I use that since the rural carrier route only follows the main road, which runs a half mile from my house.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oddly the house I grew up in, Snowbird Lane in Levittown, N.Y. had its own ZIP+9, while the whole rest of our side of the street had another one. I never understoodd why.
:-) Andrew
[Believe it or else, but the 4 digits in the Zip + 4 identifies what side of a street or what floor of an apartment your address is.]
As an example, the north side of 82nd Road between Queens Blvd and Kew Gardens Road includes the following 4-digit extensions:
1601 for the entire north side, including my building;
1606 for Apartments 4S-4U, 5L-5U, and 6L-6R in my building;
1611 for my building as a whole.
To find your building's breakdown, just go to www.usps.com, click on "Find Zip Codes," and type in your address with an incomplete apartment number (e.g. "1" instead of "1B").
The original zoning worked ok for instate mail, but interstate mail is where the ZIP really proved its worth. The first digit is the region, the second digit is the state, third digit is the city, and the last two digits (of the original five-digit ZIP) are the two-digit zone from the fifties.
1 covers NY and Pennsylavania, 0 covers NJ, the US terrritories in the Carribean and New England, 00 is for APO/FPO, 9 for the West Coast, and so on (I used to know them all...)
With the new 9-digit code, theoretically, you could just put a name and that number on an enveleope, and it will get to its destination.
-Hank
>>With the new 9-digit code, theoretically, you could just put a name and that number on an enveleope, and it will get to its destination
Yup, my code covers 6 apartments all on the same floor. There is one general code just for the building if there is no department on it.
11201-1956 for building
11201-1958 for apts on 3rd floor.
Actually, Richmond County, VA is quite a ways away from the city and State Capitol. It is to the NE near where the Potomac empties into Chesapeake Bay
I know somewhat about the old towns, villages and cities in Kings, western Queens, and southern Westchester Counties before they joined New York City, but one place I seem to draw a blank is Richmond County. Even my map of New York State from 1867, showing town and city lines everywhere else in the state, has none on Staten Island. Anyone know about this?
:-) Andrew
Uh...I just did some internet research and answered my own question. Before 1898, Richmond County consisted of the Towns of Northfield, Westfield, Southfield, Castleton, and Middleton and the Villages of New Brighton, Port Richmond and Edgewater. I don't know what towns the villages lay in, but the Village of Edgewater consisted of what would today be called Stapleton, Clifton and part of Tompkinsville. Must have been a really rural place at the time if three of the five towns were named for their geographical positions on the island, as if to say "There's nothing much we can say about this place."
:-) Andrew
The original towns of Richmond County were Castleton, Northfield, Southfield, and Westfield. Just as they were preparing to build the SIRT, a new town, Middletown, was created from parts of Castleton and Southfield. The SIRT had ferries named for all these towns, except I don't recall if there was a ferry "Middletown."
Castleton was the location of St. George, where the ferry and SIRT terminal were/are.
There were villages as the years went by: New Brighton (which covered all of Castleton Town by Consolidation). Tottenville became a village, and Port Richmond and others.
For those unfamiliar, in New York State, counties are usually divided into cities, towns, villages and hamlets. Towns are the primary subdivisions of a county, containing villages and hamlets. Hamlets are unincorporated areas, sort of like neighborhoods, with a named identity, but depend on the town for services and governance. Villages are incorporated areas within a town. They provide most of the local service, have a mayor and village hall and a large measure of home rule, but still depend on the town for some things and are answrable to the town for other issues.
Cities are more or less autonomous and have a high level of home rule and local responsibility for services and governance.
I think New York City is nationally unique in having a city spread across more than one county. Anyone know of another?
Atlanta - DeKalb & Fulton, Kansas City - Clay, Jackson & Platte.
Atlanta - DeKalb & Fulton, Kansas City - Clay, Jackson & Platte
Do these cities take up the whole counties, like in NYC?
Wait a minute, I had always assumed that Atlanta was entirely within Fulton County. DeKalb too. Perhaps Rob in Atlanta could confirm this.
Anyway, Philadelphia and San Francisco are co-terminous with counties. Chicago is the majority of Cook County, and Boston is almost all of Suffolk County. I've always wondered why the other communities don't just join the city, rather than sharing a county that is utterly dominated by the city. Washington is its own DC, and Baltimore City is actually NOT part of Baltimore County. If you want central city data from a source normally available only by county, to compare with New York, these are the ones you can use.
On the other had, the City of Los Angeles is one small part of Los Angeles County -- it terms of population and importance it is the county (9 million) that is comparable to NYC (8 million). Orange County is comparable to Long Island, but we have New Jersey, which puts us "ahead."
>>> On the other had, the City of Los Angeles is one small part of Los Angeles County -- it terms of population and importance it is the county (9 million) that is comparable to NYC (8 million) <<<
You are mixing apples and oranges. The County of Los Angeles is no where near as important as the City of Los Angeles in terms of its effect on its inhabitants. The county is governed by five supervisors, and they control only the unincorporated areas. The 80+ cities within Los Angeles County each have their own governments with Los Angeles (city) being the largest with a population of 3+ million. So the population governed by Los Angeles County is much smaller than 9 million, about 1 million, and much of the unincorporated County area covering 2,649 square miles is desert, rural, and low density mountainous area.
Tom
"much of the unincorporated County area covering 2,649 square miles is desert, rural, and low density mountainous area. "
You mean there's actually some "rural" left in Los Angeles County?
Wow. In LA, "undeveloped land" is an oxymoron.
I'm coming to LA to visit family at the end of November (a distant relative turns 100 in a few days. I wrote to the White House greetings office to see if I could get a letter sent on the occasion).
Um, L.A. county is 2,649 square miles?
Long Island is like, 1,377 square miles, including Brooklyn & Queens. The population of LI (including B&Q) is about 8 or 9 million. So L.A. County is almost twice as big as all of Long Island with a similar population.
So having some rural in the mix isn't that amazing. Is it?
"So having some rural in the mix isn't that amazing. Is it? "
I see you haven't been there...trust me, it is amazing.
I take it back. I was exaggerating - a little.
Tom's post is right.
Um, L.A. county is 2,649 square miles?
Long Island is like, 1,377 square miles, including Brooklyn & Queens. The population of LI (including B&Q) is about 8 or 9 million. So L.A. County is almost twice as big as all of Long Island with a similar population.
So having some rural in the mix isn't that amazing. Is it?
What's really funny is the Los Angeles CMSA. It includes all of San Bernardino County's 20,000+ square miles, much of it uninhabited desert.
And the Seattle-Tacoma-Bremerton CMSA (and the individual MSAs within it) includes a lot of places that you can't get to without serious mountaineering experience and equipment.
And San Bernadino Co. is the largest land area of any county in the USA.
>>> You mean there's actually some "rural" left in Los Angeles County? <<<
Give us a break here. There are 4,081 sq. miles in Los Angeles County, nearly as large as the State of Conneticut (4,845 sq. miles). Most of the northern part of the county is rural, much of it desert. The dairy farms are gone from the southern part of the county, but the hills and canyons above Malibu are still rural. There is a County fair every September with the traditional displays of produce and farm animals raised in the county.
>>> In LA, "undeveloped land" is an oxymoron. <<<
In the city maybe, but certainly not in the county. The county of Los Angeles includes 1,875 sq. miles of mountains, including the Angeles National Forest where search and rescue parties are sent regularly to find lost hikers. Bears, mountain lions and coyotes wander down to the civilized areas from time to time, vying with freeway chases for local news time.
Tom
OK, so I exaggerate a little. :0)
You have no idea how ticked off I got when I heard the City of LA planning to rip up the last natural area left (the Santa Clarita River area) to put up single family homes.
The county of Los Angeles includes 1,875 sq. miles of mountains, including the Angeles National Forest where search and rescue parties are sent regularly to find lost hikers. Bears, mountain lions and coyotes wander down to the civilized areas from time to time
They should just stay in the mountains and eat the lost hikers.
In LA, "undeveloped land" is an oxymoron.
In the city maybe...
If you've ever driven "The 405" (I-405/San Diego Freeway) between the Valley and the heart of LA, you go through some apparently undeveloped, mountainous land in the area of Mulholand Drive. That is within the City of Los Angeles. I suspect it is not so much undeveloped though as it is just a bunch of humnungous backyards.
The highway itself hardly seems "rural". It's one of the worst traffic nightmares I've ever seen. I used to think there was no traffic worse than the NYC area. Now I know better!
:-) Andrew
Part of Mulholland Drive was a dirt road until relatively recently. It really is undeveoped, but it is right up on the ridge of the mountains so developing it (especially organising a water supply)would be pretty expensive.
Damn sloppy developers. They missed terracing those hillsides. Would make a nice Universal Studios mudslide show...:0)
[I've always wondered why the other communities don't just join the city, rather than sharing a county that is utterly dominated by the city.]
For the same reason Nassau County left the city - after years of building an identity based on "not the city," they'll do anything, at any cost, to avoid becoming part of the city.
For the same reason Nassau County left the city - after years of building an identity based on "not the city," they'll do anything, at any cost, to avoid becoming part of the city.
Nassau County never "left" the City. When Consolidation took place in 1898, the Queens Towns of North Hempsstead, Oyster Bay and most of Hempstead did not join the City but remained part of Queens County. A year later, they formed Nassau County.
Even with all the extreme problems Nassau County has, tell me what advantage the people there would get by being part of the City.
Even with all the extreme problems Nassau County has, tell me what advantage the people there would get by being part of the City.
Property taxes would drop considerably. Although Nassau residents who don't already work in the city would become subject to the city's income tax, I suspect that most would get a significant net gain thanks to much lower property taxes.
Property taxes would drop considerably. Although Nassau residents who don't already work in the city would become subject to the city's income tax, I suspect that most would get a significant net gain thanks to much lower property taxes.
And what about people who don't own property?
Even those that do - you get used to property tax being part of your mortgage payment - it is a fixed amount and is paid once a month, easy to plan and budget for. And it virtually becomes "invisible" to you - all you think about is paying the mortgage - the bank takes care of the rest.
And if it is rental property - the property tax is a fully deductible expense. You cannot deduct income tax on Schedule E (Rental Property).
Furthermore, the percentage of income tax varies with salary level and also takes an increased bite out of overtime pay. A person who only has property tax to pay does not pay more tax because he works heavy overtime. It hits your paycheck and is not "invisible"...
Property taxes would drop considerably [if Nassau became a part of NYC]. Although Nassau residents who don't already work in the city would become subject to the city's income tax, I suspect that most would get a significant net gain thanks to much lower property taxes.
And what about people who don't own property?
Even those that do - you get used to property tax being part of your mortgage payment - it is a fixed amount and is paid once a month, easy to plan and budget for. And it virtually becomes "invisible" to you - all you think about is paying the mortgage - the bank takes care of the rest.
And if it is rental property - the property tax is a fully deductible expense. You cannot deduct income tax on Schedule E (Rental Property).
Furthermore, the percentage of income tax varies with salary level and also takes an increased bite out of overtime pay. A person who only has property tax to pay does not pay more tax because he works heavy overtime. It hits your paycheck and is not "invisible"...
Your points are well taken, but I still maintain that most Nassau County residents would derive a net financial benefit if the county became part of NYC (the nonfinancial aspects are a completely separate and probably much more complicated matter). While it's true that residents who don't own houses wouldn't benefit from low property tax NYC rates, the fact remains that Nassau is, by and large, a county of homeowners. I'll also stereotype a bit and surmise that most county residents who do not own their houses are not at the income levels where they'd have to pay much if any income tax to NYC.
I have to disagree completely when it comes to the "invisibility" of property taxes, especially vs. income taxes. Most people pay their property taxes via mortgage escrows, but it's pretty hard to forget the property-tax component of your mortgage payment when, as is often the case in Nassau, you're paying $6,000 per year in property taxes on a modest house in a modest neighborhood. Income taxes are buried in the deductions section of one's paycheck and tend to be easier to ignore. Also note that because property tax payments are taken into account when underwriters determine how much of a monthly payment mortgage applicants can afford, high rates make Nassau less affordable to first-time house buyers and therefore can (and probably have) lead to an aging population and declining tax base.
While you are correct about salary levels and overtime, I do not see the problem - after all, income taxes are supposed to be progressive, with rates rising along with income. Property taxes of course are not, which can lead to hardships for people whose incomes have declined for whatever reasons.
Finally, while you have it right as far as rental property is concerned, the fact remains that most people in Nassau and elsewhere do not own any.
Furthermore, the percentage of income tax varies with salary level and also takes an increased bite out of overtime pay. A person who only has property tax to pay does not pay more tax because he works heavy overtime.
Conversely, when times are bad and you get laid off, you pay the same property tax, even if you're heating baked beans over Sterno.
Property taxes would drop considerably. Although Nassau residents who don't already work in the city would become subject to the city's income tax, I suspect that most would get a significant net gain thanks to much lower property taxes.
REALITY CHECK TIME!!! DING, DING, DING!!!
The city would never ever absorb a suburb in order to craete a net cash outflow to the former suburb.
Property taxes would drop considerably. Although Nassau residents who don't already work in the city would become subject to the city's income tax, I suspect that most would get a significant net gain thanks to much lower property taxes.
REALITY CHECK TIME!!! DING, DING, DING!!!
The city would never ever absorb a suburb in order to create a net cash outflow to the former suburb.
Of course not. The chances that NYC would ever absorb Nassau are so close to zero that for all intents and purposes they are zero. As one would say on soc.history.what-if, it's an Alien Space Bats (i.e. deus ex machina) situation. But IF the unthinkable ever happened, Nassau residents would benefit financially.
Baltimore and St. Louis are both unique since neither is in a county.
Maryland has 24 subdivisions, 23 Counties and Baltimore City.
Baltimore became an independent city in 1845. At that time the County Seat of Baltimore County was moved to Towson, where it remains.
Baltimore and St. Louis are both unique since neither is in a county.
They are not that unique. Carson City, NV and nearly every city in Virginia are independent. And also, since those states don't have counties, every part of Alaska and Louisiana is not in a county.
But doesn't Louisiana have parishes, which are county-equivalent?
Correct. Are the major cities in Louisiana situated within a parish, or are the parishes only around them, with the city being a separate jurisdiction?
Are the major cities in Louisiana situated within a parish, or are the parishes only around them, with the city being a separate jurisdiction?
Most or all are within the surrounding parishes.
A parish is a county in all but name. Every part of the state is in one parish or another.
I meant what I said.
Baltimore and St. Louis are cities NOT in a county. Both happen to be adjoined by a county with the same name.
Being an "independent" city means the city does not have to go to the county goverment for laws. They have their own Mayor and City Council, but are still within the county. City residents in these cities may pay some county fees and taxes.
Residents of Baltimore and St. Louis pay taxes/fees only to their city, not to the county that has the same name.
Both happen to be adjoined by a county with the same name.
Well in that case they are probably unique.
But in Philadelphia, San Francisco and New York, the City controls the entire county and there is no county government. The city controls everything the county otherwise would and that makes it similar to an independent city.
In Connecticut and Massachusetts there are no county governments anywhere. The counties only exist for court purposes.
But in Philadelphia, San Francisco and New York, the City controls the entire county and there is no county government. The city controls everything the county otherwise would and that makes it similar
to an independent city.
The counties in NYC do have District Atorneys.
In Connecticut and Massachusetts there are no county governments anywhere. The counties only exist for court purposes.
Rhode Island too.
:-) Andrew
[In] New York, the City controls the entire county and there is no county government. The city controls everything the county otherwise would and that makes it similar to an independent city.
Are you quite sure of that?
At least as late as the 1960s Brooklyn had a County Clerk, whose job seemed be to maintain certain records and he was the de facto county historian.
Also, I dug out Silver Leaf's business certificate and see it is filed in Kings County, not the "Borough of Brooklyn" or "City of New York." It also contains the imprimiteur of he Kings County seal.
([In] New York, the City controls the entire county and there is no county government. The city controls everything the county otherwise would and that makes it similar to an independent city. Are you quite sure of that? At least as late as the 1960s Brooklyn had a County Clerk, whose job seemed be to maintain certain records and he was the de facto county historian. Also, I dug out Silver Leaf's business certificate and see it is filed in Kings County, not the "Borough of Brooklyn" or "City of New York." It also contains the imprimiteur of he Kings County seal.)
Kings County continues to exist as a subdivision of the state for purposes of the state court system. The county clerk works for the courts.
St. Louis is not in a county either. Nor is any city in VA.
(St. Louis is not in a county either. Nor is any city in VA. )
I had forgotten about St. Louis, and Alexandria Va.
Again, the main reason I was interested in this issue is that some key data sources are not available below the county level. In fact, you really can't get reliable data on anything between decenial censuses below the county, although the American Community Survey might change that if it is fully funded.
My original source was the National Geographic Road Atlas, which shows eastern Atlanta in DeKalb. I vaguely recall some problem between the Metro Atlanta Police and those in DeKalb some years ago.
However the 2002 New York Times Almanac lists Atlanta as being only in Fulton. More curiously, Kansas City is also claimed to continue south to Cass County, although this is not depicted in the Atlas. I hope the gentleman from Atlanta can at least clear up the first mystery.
As to the Virginia references, what is even more bizarre is that the county seats are independent cities. For example, Charlottesville is surrounded by Albemarle County and serves as its seat, but is not affected by decisions of county lawmakers meeting within its boundaries. It's as if Central Park was an independent jurisdiction but New York City Hall was located at Strawberry Fields.
The question of "cities divided by county boundaries" is not just academic. Once again, in 2000, there was a political fight over the standards used to designate the boundaries of metropoltian areas.
Every 10 years, federal agencies propose a set of standards that will result in metro areas official being what everyone thinks of them as. Then the standards are sent out for public comment, and Nassau and Suffolk Counties (aka the Nassau-Suffolk metropolitan area) and New Jersey get outraged at being officially associated with New York City. And the agencies back down and the standards change.
Based on 1990 data and the updated standards, the NY Metro area will include New York City and Hudson County, NJ, and nothing else. To do this, however, they had to make the standards for separation based on commuting flows so weak (but only in Metro Areas with five million or more people) that some of the NYC boroughs would not have been in the NY Metro Area either! So they had a special provision for cities divided by county boundaries. I had assumed NYC was the only one.
When the new "Metro Areas" come out, I wonder how the fact that Nassau and Suffolk aren't even in the NY Metro Area will factor into the relative value of East Side Access?
I think you need to consider also the impact of technology businesses. Twenty years and longer ago there was more of a tendency for suburban businesses to be satellites or back offices of businesses in the core city (and what would you call South Dakota, which is a back office for a lot of banks?)
Now a company like Computer Associates or Cablevision can be major companies without a significant presence in the City.
I wonder if this makes the Nassau-Suffolk SMSA different from others surrounding NYC?
Now a company like Computer Associates or Cablevision can be major companies without a significant presence in the City.
I wonder if this makes the Nassau-Suffolk SMSA different from others surrounding NYC?
It shouldn't make Nassau-Suffolk any different from other surrounding counties/SMSA's, as they all have major companies too.
I'm looking at a map city planning generated from the 1990 census. The influence of NYC on the suburbs is far greater than the number of workers, because those are the high earning workers, and their spending generates most of the jobs in the burbs.
The map shows the share of each county's residents' income earned in NYC (mostly Manhattan). Westchester and Nassau were 40 percent plus. Rockland, Bergen and Hudson were 25 to 40. Fairfield, Essex, Monmouth and Suffolk were also 15 to 24.
The other counties, further out, were below 15 percent, although many work in jobs in the inner counties that are generated by residents of those counties who earn their income in Manhattan.
A million years ago when I was doing planning, there was a Jersey City SMSA that consisted of Hudson County. But there was also a New York City Standard Consolidated Area (the only other one was Chicago or LA)that took in the Jersey City, Newark and Paterson-Clifton-Passaic SMSAs. Why was this two tier category abandoned? It seems to have solved the problem of needing different data bases.
While we are on the subject (or off subject) just look at a map of any major city in Texas. At the extremities, the city border snakes along an interstate or state highway for many miles, with the border of the city only being about 20 feet along each side of the highway or "frontage road" ie. road running along the highway. The same is true for rivers with the city boundry running along the river bank for 5-20 miles or so past the proper boundry of the city.
If you have a map with a different color for areas within the city border, you can easily see this.
>>> As to the Virginia references, what is even more bizarre is that the county seats are independent cities. For example, Charlottesville is surrounded by Albemarle County and serves as its seat, but is not affected by decisions of county lawmakers meeting within its boundaries <<<
What is so bizarre about that? In most states, Counties, (or in Louisiana Parishes) are the primary sub-division of the state. Every sq. foot of the state is in a county. The State legislature makes the big laws, defining such things as Rape, Robbery and Mayhem, and other state wide laws. Where there are incorporated cities, the cities make and enforce local laws within the city limits. The County government makes and enforces local laws for all the unincorporated areas within that county. Therefore Charlottesville is not just surrounded by Albemarle County, it is in the county. Since county seats are usually the largest concentrations of people in a county, they are virtually always incorporated cities, so the county government sitting there does not make the municipal laws.
Since most cities use some county services, such as the County Recorder, and Registrar of Voters, and County courts, what is rare is an incorporated city (as opposed to a metropolitan area) existing in more than one county.
Tom
>>> Therefore Charlottesville is not just surrounded by Albemarle County, it is in the county <<<
I stand corrected. The Commonwealth of Virginia does have a different form of subdivision, giving an "Independent City" charter which makes such a city equivalent to and outside of the counties. Is that system unique to Virginia, or do some other states have similar schemes?
Tom
As we have already established, Carson City, NV, St. Louis, MO and Baltimore, MD are independent cities.
>>> Carson City, NV, St. Louis, MO and Baltimore, MD are independent cities. <<<
That is correct, but each is the only one in its respective state, while Virginia has a lot of independent cities.
Tom
Also interesting- There are at leasr two cities which are in two states:
Bristol-- Tennessee and Virginia. The main street is the state line with oen side in each state.This city has two Post Offices-oen for each state complete with their only zip code.
Texarkana- Texas and Arkansas.
>>> There are at leasr two cities which are in two states: .....
Bristol-- Tennessee and Virginia. ...
Texarkana- Texas and Arkansas. <<<
Sorry, you are wrong there. They are twin cities, but in each case, they are separate cities on each side of the border. Each has a separate government elected by its own citizens. It is true that they are immediately adjacent to each other, and each considers the twin cities to be one community, but politically they are separate.
Tom
There are at leasr two cities which are in two states:
Bristol-- Tennessee and Virginia
Texarkana- Texas and Arkansas.
Sorry, you are wrong there. They are twin cities, but in each case, they are separate cities on each side of the border. Each has a separate government elected by its own citizens. It is true that they are immediately adjacent to each other, and each considers the twin cities to be one community, but politically they are separate.
Very true, but I can't help myself but to mention a few other such circumstances:
Kansas City, MO and KS
South Lake Tahoe, CA and NV
Niagara Falls, NY and ON (Two countries!)
I want to also mention West New York, NJ but that's just too silly.
:-) Andrew
Maybe a slice of Staten Island could be called "East New Jersey"
Just kidding. I promise not to mention it again.
Of interest:
When I drive to NYC from here (Austin, TX) the direct route takes me through Texarkana on I-30. The post office is split between TX and Ark. If you mail your letter to a distant city from the Ark. side, the letter will go through Little Rock. If you mail from the TX side, the letter will go through Dallas. A sign informed customers of that fact.
Also the P.O. has two different zip codes.
Also the P.O. has two different zip codes.
It would have to, as the ZIP codes are organized by state. For (a local) example:
100xx-149xx: New York
150xx-196xx: Pennsylvania
197xx-199xx: Delaware
:-) Andrew
Same situation with Texarkana -- the state/city divide is right down the middle of U.S. 71, and both sides have their own local and state government operations, though from a busniess standpoint, the only difference is in the tax structure from locating on the east or west side of town. (Kansas City is another example, though the river there makes the divide between the two states more obvious).
On the other hand, the citizens of Wendover, Utah are petitioning the state and federal government to be allowed to seceede from Utah and join its sister city of Wendover, Nevada. The two cities are located at the western end of the Bonniville Salt Flat on Interstate 80, but economically, the Utah portion of Wendover is in far worse shape because of legalized gambling in Nevada -- once you cross the state line, the difference between the two Wendovers is pretty startling.
It's been a long time since a state boundary change like that has been approved (Texas and Oklahoma are fighting over their boundary, but that's because of changes in the Red River flow), so it will be interesting to see how far the move to turn two cities into one gets.
On the other hand, the citizens of Wendover, Utah are petitioning the state and federal government to be allowed to seceede from Utah and join its sister city of Wendover, Nevada. The two cities are
located at the western end of the Bonniville Salt Flat on Interstate 80, but economically, the Utah portion of Wendover is in far worse shape because of legalized gambling in Nevada -- once you cross the state line, the difference between the two Wendovers is pretty startling.
I saw Wendover when my wife and I drove cross country on our honeymoon. (How cool is that!) Having not seen Vegas, the Nevada side of Wendover was the greatest concentration of cassinos I've ever seen! It made me doubt the resolve of many Utah residents in their quasi-Puritan lifestyle when many are obviously supporting a great number of cassinos just over the state line. I wonder if Utah considers it an embarrassment.
:-) Andrew
Thanks for the correction. Wasn't sure about the government setup. Thanks!
BTW- There is (or was) a newspaper in Bristol called the Virginia Tennessean
"Sorry, you are wrong there. They are twin cities, but in each case, they are separate cities on each side of the border. Each has a separate government elected by its own citizens."
Here's a puzzle I don't know the answer to. The towns of Hildale UT and Colorado City, AZ have a joint police force, i.e., police vehicles are marked as belonging to this joint force. How do they manage that? Especially considering that the fundamental reason for the towns being there is to evade specific laws (i.e., the marriage statutes) of the two states.
>>> The towns of Hildale UT and Colorado City, AZ have a joint police force, i.e., police vehicles are marked as belonging to this joint force <<<
Looking at a map of the two towns, it appears that Colorado City is much bigger than Hildale. I suspect that Hildale contracts with Colorado City to provide police services. This is not unusual with small towns in the western U.S., but is unusual across state lines. The police officers would have to be sworn as peace officers in both states, and be aware of the differences in state and local laws in the two towns.
Norwalk, where I live, has a Public Safety Department which responds to minor things like traffic accidents, or someone complaining about neighbors children causing problems, but contracts with the Los Angeles County Sheriff to handle the big calls such as shots fired or any felony. The next town, Santa Fe Springs (transit content: used to be a watering stop for Santa Fe steam engines) has a similar arrangement with the City of Whittier.
Tom
"Looking at a map of the two towns, it appears that Colorado City is much bigger than Hildale. I suspect that Hildale contracts with Colorado City to provide police services. This is not unusual with small towns in the western U.S., but is unusual across state lines."
It's the state line aspect that surprises me. I'm amazed either state allows anyone with police powers to be a resident of the other state.
By the way, the two town really are one very closely knit integral unit. Almost all land in both towns is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (an interesting group but truly off topic).
To add to the list, Virginia has numerous "Independent Cities" which seceeded from their county such as Charlottesville. Carson City Nevada consildated with the former Carson COunty, the city being the survivor and is listed as in indpendent city. Balimtor has Baltimroe City (independent city) and Balitmore County.
Tennessee has Nashville which consoildated with Davidson county (but the county name survives since the areas has two districts- one is the former Nashville and the other the rest fo the county.)
I believe the upstate City of Geneva straddles the border of Ontario and Seneca Counties, but by no means does it take up anywhere near all of either county. So in no way is it the same thing.
:-) Andrew
I think Los Angeles. I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago is like that also.
Philadelphia is coterminous with Philadelphia County.
Boston takes up nearly all of Suffolk County, Massachussets, except for a tiny area to the northeast of the city.
However Los Angeles does NOT take up all of Los Angeles County. There's a number of incorporated cities (such as Beverly Hills and Santa Monica) surrounded by the City of Los Angeles itself, and there are also some outlying cities and unincorporated areas still within Los Angeles County.
:-) Andrew
Actually, Suffolk County includes the City of Chelea and may also include Revere and Winthrop (I have forgotten the details of this.)
I think New York City is nationally unique in having a city spread across more than one county. Anyone know of another?
Rocky Mount, North Carolina... the CSX (ex-ACL) main line forms the county line between Nash and Edgecombe Counties and also bisects the city. Rocky Mount does not occupy all of either county, however - not even close. Historically, that part of Rocky Mount on the Nash County side of the tracks is white, and the part on the Edgecombe County side is black, although that's less true today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is little known oddity that a very small portion of the City of Chicago is incorporated in neighboring DuPage County. The area involved is part of O'Hare Airport, and basically uninhabited.
Atlanta
Atlanta & Part of Austin, Texas is Williamson Co. but most is Travis County.
When is a conversation like this appropriate? It was with Me, Clayton, and one of his friends... and the CR.
CR: You think your funny?
Me: No. I'm Sorry.
CR: You're Sorry?
Me: Won't happen again.
CR: How old are you?
Me: 16
CR: Your acting like a fuckin' 10 year old. I'm here everyday. I'm gonna remember all 3 of your faces. If I see you again and you fuck around with me like that, you're going to be part of my train. What are you smiling at? (said to Clayton's friend) I'll break all your fuckin' teeth.
Any suggestions on what to do? I have time of date, location, northbound leading motor, possible interval and a rough description. Customer Service is closed probably till Tuesday.
What in the world prompted the CR to say that?
I kicked it bottle on the platform... it hit the train and bounced back. The CR's window was right on top and he saw me. The bottle didn't leave the floor. His window was closed. Nothing flew off the ground except his language.
I think the question that begs to be asked is why are you doing something stupid like kicking a bottle in the first place? What did you expect the conductor to say, "oh, excuse me, could you please not kick that bottle. I was afraid it was going to break and I or someone else might get cut by a shard of glass." ?
Empty plastic Nestea bottle in the middle of the platform?
He did get carried away, it's true.
Well, write a letter and send it to the TA (Larry Reuter, President) at 370 Jay St, NY NY 11201, and they'll route it to the right person. Include all details, and be honest about what you did.
That could have landed on the trackbed and tripped the train?
Not a good idea. (Not that it justifies the C/R's response.)
"That could have landed on the trackbed and tripped the train?"
A nestea bottle won't trip a train. Where do you guys come up with this crap? Kicking the bottle, empty or full, is a moronic, reckless thing to do. Someone could have been seriously hurt - period.
Oh yeah! Watch out for the flying Nestea bottle. Yeah, I bet the cap could've put an eye out! Give me a break.
I'd rather get the five-cent refund than be stuck
with paying C/R $749 eye exam bill...
Heh, good point. I'd think you'd have a btter chance of getting your eye out with a pebble, then some Nestea cap. Yeouch!!
Well, excuse me for not knowing all the details of tripcocks. It's not like I've ever tried it myself.
Just to play devils advocate, could a bottle or other trash foul the trip-arm of a signal if it blocked the arm from reverting back to the lowered position after a train has pasted?
Kicking the bottle, empty or full, is a moronic, reckless thing to do. Someone could have been seriously hurt - period.
You're kidding me, right? He kicked a plastic bottle, who the hell is he going to hurt, the flies on the wall? Kicking a bottle is something that happens without you even knowing it sometimes, I've been walking, talking to someone and have accdently sent a bottle down a platform, sometimes over the edge. But, what I really want to know how the hell someone is going to get seriously hurt here?
Here are some observations I noted here:
1. This story is funny as hell. This could easily become a plot on some mindless TV comedy. Matter-of-fact, Friends could use this, and it would be funny.
2. All this could have been avoided if R-68 just says that he didn't mean to do it. Even if the C/R still wants beef, then he just looks like an ass.
3. I think the punk-ass C/R just harassed them because they were harmless-looking kids (I don't know how big you guys appear though). I could get away with worse than that, and I've observed much worse than that when 'thugish' kids take-over a cab and get on the intercoms. Hell, I've kicked a bottle into a train before, and no one said shit.
Anyone who says kicking bottles is 'dangerous and moronic' must still be 4. That's when you believe all the stuff that adults tell you not to do because it's more annoying than dangerous.
"I've observed much worse than that when 'thugish' kids take-over a cab and get on the intercoms."
Sounds like people who would benefit from being fed a nightstick.
Rectally.
My father is missing an eye due to one of these harmless youthful games.
Someone kicked a plastic bottle into his eye? That's a freak accident, and I am sorry for you/him. But c'mon, you have more of a chance getting hurt walking down some stairs or playing a sport.
As for it being plastic how is the C/R supposed to know that and why should they have to.
It's assholes like you that end up saying things like,
"I didn't think it was loaded."
"I didn't think it would burn."
"I didn't think it would break."
"I didn't think you could get pregnant if you did it standing up."
"I didn't think anyone would notice"
"I didn't think anyone would get hurt."
"I just didn't think."
Grow up!!!!!!!!!!
It's assholes like you that end up saying things like,
"Don't slouch"
"Don't step in that puddle"
"Don't do that when I'm not around"
"Don't go there, it's dangerous"
"Don't go in tall buildings"
"Don't touch anything"
"Don't, Don't Don't"
Lighten up!!!!!!
You forgot "you'll poke your eye out." :)
Yes, and it's assholes like you that end up saying things like:
"Would you like that 'super-sized', sir?"
"Would you like hot wax, sir?"
"Warden, do you think I'll get parole, next time?"
You hate on McD's workers but then I'm sure you rely on them to serve you food. It's assholes like you that end up saying things like:
"Blame your asshole muslim fundamentalist buddies" or something to the extent of that.
"Which car should I drive today?"
(SNIP)
Lighten up a little bit Clayton...we are all friends. Unca Steve is Unca Steve and i understand him far better than i did a year ago. No McBagget by Concourse...BYOB or eat off the 'roach coach.' CI Peter
You must think that you're real big stuff. Rest assured, you aren't. Apparently, you think that someone getting an entry level job must be scum, because you just used that as an insult. In that case, you're a stuck up snob. To say something like that only proves that you think that you are some type of god, and you sound mildly like a racist with that crap you just said.
As for the last reference, I did not know that bottle-kicking was the first step on the road to incarceration. In that case, Juvenille hall had better make way for lots and lots of kids.
Kicking a plastic bottle without malicious intent is not wrong. From the sound of it, R-68A wasn't being malicious, or trying to hurt anyone. I could see if he threw the bottle, or if it was glass, but neither of those things happened.
What I really want to know is: why do you feel it necessary to start insulting someone?
Congratulations! You have said what I always wanted to say but never had the balls to, and I'm sure you said what everyone else wanted to say but never wanted to be so upfront about it. Well put, IN THE FACE TD!
Bad move, J trainloco. Do not challange or insult Train Dude. He knows what he is saying and has little patience with those who believe rules are for everybody but themselves.
Now as to plastic bottles. I have seen bus & streetcar windows broken by kicked/thrown plastic soda/tea bottles. That being said being immature is not age specific. I know several immature people in their 40's.
Do not challange or insult Train Dude. He knows what he is saying and has little patience with those who believe rules are for everybody but themselves.
Well, thanks for the advice "Dan Lawrence", but this is not my first run-in with Train Jerk. Apparently, having knowledege here is a valid reason to put others down. The lines used in that last post were just wrong, and a slap in the face to any poor person who doesn't have a college (or high school) education whether it's their fault or not. That was totally uncalled for, as are many of his posts on this site. But usually, he quotes some number or fact and no one can rebutt him, and so they shut up. I'd like to know what rule says that C/R's are supposed to harass customers (because that C/R was definately harrassing those kids).
Now as to plastic bottles. I have seen bus & streetcar windows broken by kicked/thrown plastic soda/tea bottles.
That was obviously done with malicious intent. From the sound of it, R-68A merely said that he kicked the bottle so that it rolled, maybe bouncing a few times, but he didn't try to do a 'kickoff'. Things like that could come as natural as pacing when you're waiting for a train. In fact, when a bottle is left on a train, it rolls around, just like a kicked bottle. Should trains that have bottles on them be taken out of service to remove the imminent danger posed by them?
That being said being immature is not age specific. I know several immature people in their 40's.
I'm saying that what they did was not immature, it was something that was done subconciously. Like biting your nails.
>>>Lighten up!!!!!!
From the person that wrote the thread "Punk-ass TA employees"?
So is this more appropriate.
The little girly who did something stupid got yelled at, had their feelings bruised and had to get uppity should lighten up.
Hahahaha ... LOVE the title. Only problem is NYC is FULL of people who would LOVE to be locked in the little conductor's room and get to meet Mr Shoe Paddle. :)
Be careful what you suggest. Heh. Thank you, ma'am, may I have another.
Are you kidding?
with the cost of butts being what it is renting them out for cigarettes would be financially sound. Or I could use the $ to get a nice bike.
Hahaha ... but the lipstick bill's gonna KILL the business, bro. :)
Becoming a personal pet of a TA employee is the biggest thing in clubbing now ... man, you gotta get OUT one of these days. Heh. Get you some.
Get the bike, but it better have a motor or I don't want to know you anymore ;-)
>>>Lighten up!!!!!!
From the person that wrote the thread "Punk-ass TA employees"?
Calling transit employees punk-asses does not mean that i cannot lighten up. In fact, I can't see how this makes me dead-ass serious at all.
The little girly who did something stupid got yelled at, had their feelings bruised and had to get uppity should lighten up.
1. It wasn't me.
2. Do you understand the meaning of lighten up?
3. The people posting here are making kicking a plastic bottle seem like it's as dangerous as subway surfing. Has anyone ever heard of the game 'kick the can?' Because Train Dude would like to make playing that a capitol offense.
Don't get me wrong, not all Transit employees are punks. A while back, an employee saved a kid who was getting beat down (and in the process got beat himself.) That guy was not a punk. And, my dad works for the TA, and I know he doesn't take crap. But realistically, would that employee have yelled at some big black guys in the Junius St station? And chasing him up the stairs? I definately don't think so.
Someone on this board (Could have been you, Wannabe1) said recently that they were operating on a train and heard someone getting mugged outside their cab and didn't do shit about it. But this C/R can CHASE these kids up the stairs to yell at them, and threaten them. Now that my dear, dear Wannabe1 is:
BITCH-ASS TRANSIT EMPLOYEE SHIT
And you know it too.
Actually it was me. I did come out but the punk railfan said nothing TWICE. I had to force the kid to go to the cop standing 10 ft away from him.
"But realistically, would that employee have yelled at some big black guys in the Junius St station? And chasing him up the stairs? I definately don't think so."
FIRST OF ALL, please keep race out of this post and future posts unless it is justfied although in general race and ethnicity should be left out period!. Second, I know there are always a few employees who are daring enough to go chase people, which I think they are crazy but they're brave. Third, you really can't say that TA employees are punk asses[yes I know some are] b/c if they physically hurt a passenger,they are held liable unless there is proof that they were provoked and must protect themselves, they could get fired/suspended, and then the victim [most of the time its the passenger] could sue the TA in which there is a better chance that the injured passenger wins.
FIRST OF ALL, please keep race out of this post and future posts unless it is justfied although in general race and ethnicity should be left out period!
I'm sorry if my mention of race is offending to you, but let's be realistic: judgement of people purely due to race is an everyday occurrence. I face it everyday too. Why should I pretend that it doesn't happen? It does.
Second, I know there are always a few employees who are daring enough to go chase people, which I think they are crazy but they're brave.
Yeah, there are some pretty nuts TA employees who would do that. One of them is my father, who actually did something to that extent once on his break.
Third, you really can't say that TA employees are punk asses[yes I know some are] b/c if they physically hurt a passenger,they are held liable unless there is proof that they were provoked and must protect themselves, they could get fired/suspended, and then the victim [most of the time its the passenger] could sue the TA in which there is a better chance that the injured passenger wins.
I called the guy a punk-ass because he chased kids, and verbally abused them. Kids who are probably too scared to do anything about it. That's what makes him a punk-ass.
>>> I called the guy a punk-ass because he chased kids, and verbally abused them. Kids who are probably too scared to do anything about it. That's what makes him a punk-ass. <<<
First of all, the kids are not too scared to do anything about it. When they first posted about the incident they talked about banging the C/R in over the incident, which all agreed they had a right to do.
Second if you think what this C/R did makes him a punk-ass, you do not know much about the derivation of the term.
Tom
Nothing was done to the C/R. Although one of us did see him again and got a glare from him, we'll do something about him next time he rolls out of his cab, not for his break.
When they first posted about the incident they talked about banging the C/R in over the incident, which all agreed they had a right to do.
Many of the employees on the site suggested that they do nothing, because they were being childish and immature by kicking the bottle, and they acted as if what the C/R did was perfectly justified.
Second if you think what this C/R did makes him a punk-ass, you do not know much about the derivation of the term.
What made him a 'punk-ass' was the fact he did this to kids.
>>> Many of the employees on the site suggested that they do nothing, because they were being childish and immature by kicking the bottle, and they acted as if what the C/R did was perfectly justified. <<<
Not only employees, but others such as I, thought what they did was childish and immature, and I did not see so many saying what the C/R did was justified as saying it was perfectly understandable, and some of them might have done the same thing. There is a difference. Those who have held jobs to support a family are not so interested in seeing a C/R get time in the street over what was in the big scheme of things a minor transgression. They were suggesting some empathy with the C/R was in order.
Keep in mind, nobody loves a snitch. These people suffered no lasting harm and should let the whole thing drop.
>>> What made him a 'punk-ass' was the fact he did this to kids <<<
I understood why you called him a "punk-ass," but what I said before still goes, you obviously do not understand the derivation of the term.
Tom
It's been dropped.
We cannot leave our post. We can lsoe our job. We are trained, in stations at least, that such an action can bea ruse to get you to opent he booth door and then an accomplice will rob the booth. If a booth egts robbed, the S/A has to make full payment and can lose their job.
Let's say I leave the booth for a person getting mugged. They'll attack me to then we have two victims. If I stay in the booth I can call for help (Police) and then try to negiotiate from the safety of the booth and use the P A System to page Police that could be in the station.
We cannot leave our post.
Isn't that what the C/R did?
We can lsoe our job.
The C/R should loose his then.
We are trained, in stations at least, that such an action can bea ruse to get you to opent he booth door and then an accomplice will rob the booth.
The example I gave was the contrast. Sure, Wannabe1 could have done something for the kid, but he was operating a train here, and he could have got hurt himself. My whole point here was that if TA personnel shouldn't intervene in a mugging, why should they go out of their way to chase kids who kicked a bottle?
Let's say I leave the booth for a person getting mugged.
No one is saying you should leave the booth. But, the C/R did exactly the opposite.
Let me present you with a scenario. Let's say that after the C/R says something to the extent of "If I see you again I'll make you a part of my train" & "I'll break your fucking teeth in", R-68A and his friends jump the conductor. How's it going to look in court if the kids (who are 16 mind you) say that the C/R followed them up the stairs, Shouted obsenities at them and threatened to hurt them. They could be fearing for their safety.
Let's say that this bottle rolls at a homeless man instead. He follows them upstairs, shouts obsenities at them and then threatens to hurt them. Who would be at wrong then?
We cannot leave our post. We can lsoe our job. We are trained, in stations at least, that such an action can bea ruse to get you to opent he booth door and then an accomplice will rob the booth. If a booth egts robbed, the S/A has to make full payment and can lose their job.
Let's say I leave the booth for a person getting mugged. They'll attack me to then we have two victims. If I stay in the booth I can call for help (Police) and then try to negiotiate from the safety of the booth and use the P A System to page Police that could be in the station.
You know,this little thread has crossed the line WAY AT THE BEGINING.... BUT NOW it's vulger AND you people should know better.....SHAMFULL,and shamless at the same time......
Yo J trainloco: when the TrainDude posts a response, we're talking serious third rail. It is really tough to deal with the public in TA
and any stupid childish act reflects on everyone else whether it is a passenger doing something stupid or a Conductor responding. Perhaps NYCTA should operate 'Railroad Rules' with the Conductor in charge locking all doors and moving the trainset to a platform with waiting MTA Police.
I second the idea. Seriously, Jtrainloco-- in any organized society the leadership decides on allowable actions. Just like we cannot come to your hosue and draw on your walls even if you do not have any posted signs tellign us not to draw on your walls, so too Transit has rules and employees are made resposible for system condtions. Let's say a mkiscreant rides their bike in the mezzanioen inf ront of the booth and hits an elderly customer injuring the customer. Supervision would ask us why we did not challenge the customer and call police.
I realzioe you do not like authority. I say find an uninhabited island and set up your own rules and tell us so we can break your rules.
I wonder, what rule can I break first? Maybe we can hold a poll on what rulese of J trainloco Island we can break and then say you are being nasty when you tell us not to break your rules.
Now that you got that out of your system:
1. One of my points is that he unnecessarily chased them, just because they were kids.
2. Kicking a plastic bottle? Supervision is gonna bust your balls because you didn't stop him from kicking a plastic bottle? Whoa, someone call up TWU, you guys need to get a new provision in your contract that will make you exempt from stopping people who kick plastic bottles.
You have come up with some moronic idea that I don't accept authority. That's wrong. I always follow the rules, and accept even the bogus ones that my dumbass school imposes. But my issue was the harrassment.
Harrasment? Not hardly- the bottle could have richocheted(bounced) and hit someone or landed at someone's feet and when they moved, caused them to trip. Sure, the bottle could have been without thinking but it was kicked.Picking up the bottle woudl have been nice
I suggest for future reference not to kick bottles or do anything to upset train crews. it may be silly, but on a train the crew is reaponsible for the safety and well being of others.
Iy is better not to pursue any actions that will cause Transit employees to notice your preeence. We can call for police and in most cases the officer will side with the employee.
As far as bogus rules that your bleeping school has, why dont you try to change the rules. Run for student gopvernemnt and help change the system you think is flawed.
Case closed. I wont respodn to future posts on this subject from you.
Watch the closing doors! Ding Dong, whine, whine, whine..
Harrasment? Not hardly
Really? The C/R threatens to physically hurt them next time he sees them. Is that in the TA rule books?
the bottle could have richocheted(bounced) and hit someone or landed at someone's feet and when they moved, caused them to trip.
The bottle could have been tripped over before, when it wasn't moving.
Picking up the bottle woudl have been nice
You expect New Yorkers to pick up a peice of trash off station platforms? Why not just fire all station cleaners then?
Let's put this in perspective: When you see trash on the street (regardless of what it is) do you pick it up?
I suggest for future reference not to kick bottles or do anything to upset train crews. it may be silly, but on a train the crew is reaponsible for the safety and well being of others.
It's not silly at all. But that bottle had as much chance of hurting someone as when the C/R's close doors ON people. I've seen instances where C/R's close a door on a person (not just an arm or leg mind you)and don't seem to care. They'll just keep pressing open/close real fast, slamming the door onto the torso of said passenger. What if the car malfunctioned?
Plus, if you re-read the first message, it is plainly obvious that the C/R didn't think anyone would get hurt, but that he thought the kids were 'fucking with him'.
Iy is better not to pursue any actions that will cause Transit employees to notice your preeence. We can call for police and in most cases the officer will side with the employee.
The C/R didn't call for the cops here. Especially after chasing them and yelling at them. How could a cop side with him then?
As far as bogus rules that your bleeping school has, why dont you try to change the rules. Run for student gopvernemnt and help change the system you think is flawed.
Student government has virtually no say over anything. To put it in perspective, it would be like if the U.S. government had to answer to a higher authority. They can only suggest, not change.
Case closed. I wont respodn to future posts on this subject from you.
1. C'mon! You're gonna miss out on all the fun!
2. You already did. Too late.
Student government has virtually no say over anything. To put it in perspective, it would be like if the U.S. government had to answer to a higher authority. They can only suggest, not change.
Student government exists to cover up a fundamental hypocrisy: How can you teach people about democracy while keeping them locked up under a fascistic regime? Student government gives the impression that the slaves students actually have some say.
You just don't get it. If it struck the train in a certain way and his window was open (he has to observe the platform), it could have easily bounced up and hit him, you or someone else in the face. That plastic bottle is a projectile once it flies around. Think SAFETY and RESPECT.
You're not being very clear. Did you kick the bottle on purpose, or by accident?
If it was done on purpose, then let the incident go. And if you kicked the bottle by accident as you were walking by, I'd still recommend that you forget about the whole thing. Why pursue it? You can tarnish someone's work record for such a minor incident. This person might have to face disciplinary action, lost wages, and harassment from line TSS's and superintendants just because of you.
Move on with your life. Forget about it. And if you'd like, you can vent on me since I work for the TA. Ok?
"You can tarnish someone's work record for such a minor incident. This person might have to face disciplinary action, lost wages, and harassment from line TSS's and superintendants just because of you."
Bad advice in this case. While I perfectly agree that he should be honest about his own actions (I insist on that), if the conductor actually threatened physical violence upon him, then supervision needs to set him straight. That isn't tarnishing a reputation; that's retraining a transit professional to ensure that he doesn't repeat an inappropriate behavior.
>>> if the conductor actually threatened physical violence upon him <<<
B.S. The damned juvenile delinquents deserved to have their asses kicked. Since the C/R did not follow through on his threats, it should just be dropped.
Tom
"B.S. The damned juvenile delinquents deserved to have their asses kicked. Since the C/R did not follow through on his threats, it should just be dropped. "
Sorry, Tom. While I agree with you about the juvenile's behavior, the TA can't afford to have its professionals behaving that way.
"The damned juvenile delinquents deserved to have their asses kicked."
I don't think we deserved to be followed up the stairs and cursed at in our faces for having a bottle move near a train and making a spin. Definately not from a Professional city worker.
How do you know he won't follow through? I live on the 1 train, it is my home line, I take it to school every day and from school every day. If I see him, what do you think might happen to me even if I don't do anything? By the way, you'll be the first to know if something does happen without provoking him.
>>> If I see him, what do you think might happen to me even if I don't do anything? By the way, you'll be the first to know if something does happen without provoking him. <<<
Don't wet your pants. Nothing is going to happen to you as long as you are just riding the train minding your own business. And BTW, if something happened without provoking him, I should be the third to know, after the police, and your lawyer.
Tom
Seriously, conductors deal with a lot of BS like that, he didn't know that you meant no harm, or didn't know better. I knew a conductor personally that went on disabled leave perminantly because some hoodlum threw a glass bottle at him while he was looking down the platform.
Perhaps you didn't deserve all the yelling, but you really ought to know better.
But what was the purpose? Good thing he had the window closed and no one got hurt. The glass could have broke and shot upwards injuring the conductor or another passenger or you. Was it on an elevated structure? If so, it could have feel to the street hitting someone in the head. If you are a true rail fan, you would have shown a little respect by picking up the bottle and throwing it into the garbage. Transit workers do not go around breaking bottles at peoples places of employment and we ask that you respect our place of employmment.
After I responded, I read it was a plastic bottle, but it still is an unsafe and childish thing to do.
Umm, he said that it was a Nestea bottle, and that it was empty.
One would have to be a conductor for a few days to appreciate the reason why the guy in the cab got so honked off. Even 30 years ago, people would throw things at you when you were pulling in or out of a station. And with so many other things going on in your job as a conductor, all you really get to see is that split second "something's coming at me" ... no time to determine paper or plastic, no time to read the label, too many times it *WAS* thrown *AT* you ...
Obviously what we have here is a conductor who HAS been hit by "missiles" (and that's what the police would have written it down as) and although our friend may not quite understand the WHY yet, he's DAMN lucky the conductor didn't just flag down a cop. The lesson for everybody is don't do that. As for the conductor, my bet is this particular conductor HAS been hit before ... I've been ...
I do regret to hear that you have been a victim of assault while working..
No big thing in my case - I just learned to pay attention. I don't think there's a conductor to be found whose been on the road for a while that hasn't had their OWN "thrower incident" ... I'm merely explaining WHY it's a big deal to some, and for those who have been injured, it's REALLY a big deal. Happens more often than people think.
While I don't condone the Conductor's behavior, certainly he could not have known that the object was an empty plastic bottle as it was hurtling toward him. From where I sit, as far as he was concerned, he was under attack.
David
it didnt leave the ground according to the prior posts
True enough...but it doesn't change my opinion. What these people did was asinine and, given that railfans (which these people are) supposedly have an appreciation for the system and admiration for the people who work in it, they should have known better than to do it, irrespective of their ages. If I had been the Conductor and I had seen something come flying toward me, I probably would have gone off, too -- I might have had to pay for it from a disciplinary standpoint later, but in the heat of the moment I might very well have gone off, too.
David
Next time don'tbe kicking a bottle across a subway platform and you won't piss off a conductor.
Yes, you WERE acting like a 10 year old.
You shouldn't have kicked the bottle so it hit the train. The CA could've been more diplomatic; but these men are not trained in diplomacy, and he got his message across...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Go back tomorrow with 2 bottles, kick them, and report back here.
this has got to be the funnyest thing i've read all day.
I guess it really is all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out.
>>>this has got to be the funnyest thing i've read all day. <<<
Agreed, maybe they should go back tommorow and throw empty 40 oz. bottles at the C/R....J/k 8-).
Something tells me we are *not* being told the whole tale.
Peace,
ANDEE
Best we can tell it. Nothing inconsistant. Might've missed something. If anything doesn't make sense, feel free to post.
Remember there are 3 sides to every story
1. My side
2. Your side
3. The TRUTH
Ain't that the truth!
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok, maybe the C/R shouldn't have used that language but you're 16 and you should know better than that. But what if it had possibly caused a track fire or a disruption, then what? That was not justified but don't think all C/R's are going to say nothing and take it nicely or say please don't do that.. etc..common sense should tell you that is something you DON'T DO in the subway.
a stressed out conductor. i wouldn't blame them for acting the way they are acting. its always the passenger who throughs the attitude first.
Not always. The conductor can be pretty bitchy toward passengers as I've seen in some situations. It's a double-edged sword, my friend.
i know. but based un how stressful a conductor's job is i support them in their actions.
Yelling at passengers? Not acceptable. Condutors are not the only ones who have to endure stress these days. City life can be pretty beating to people as well.
Yelling at passengers? Not acceptable. Conductors are not the only ones who have to endure stress these days. City life can be pretty beating to people as well.
This was at Chambers Street. And we ran up the stairs to hide from him. In just a few minutes we see him coming up the stairs where his screaming starts. It was face to face upstairs. He was no farther than 2 feet away from us.
You ran up the stairs to hide from him, even though you didn't think you'd done anything wrong? I suspect we still haven't heard the whole story.
The bottle hit the train right under his window. You needed to see his face. The train was slow enough to make direct eye contact for a few seconds.
Don't go kicking bottles at subway trains
It wasn't at the train. The bottle is tapered at the end and turned that way.
R68A-5200, Did your foot come in contact with the bottle as you were walking, or did your foot come in contact with the bottle with the specific purpose of kicking it?
I'm liking this story.
Again, if the widow was open and it bounced a bit higher, you would have hit him in the face. If you were in his shoes, wouldn't you have been thinking of that? No wonder why he was pissed.
Ah! Monster!!
I have 2 suggestions:
First, TA rules require all employees to conduct themselves properly regardless of provocation. If you have a car # and time you can report the incident.
Second, grow the hell up. Start acting like an adult. The fact that you didn't hurt anyone does not mean that you couldn't have. Just remember that while railfanning may be a hobby to you, railroading is a job to the employees. They may or may not care about railfans but I can guarantee that they don't appreciate little schmucks screwing with them on the job.
A very sensible post.
NYCTA patrons deserve courteous professional service at all times. NYCTA employees deserve to be treated with respect and courtesy in return.
Yes, quite true. It's a pity it never works out that way most of the time.
I kicked it to get it out of the way of the middle of the platform between the edge and the base of the stairs. Actually, it wasn't even a hard kick. It was more like a tap. It wasn't like a big soccer play. Despite what they go through everyday it's part of their job and I didn't mean to have it go anywhere near him. Exiting out of the train, coming up the stairs and sreaming profanities and threats in our faces is still unjustified especially when the train was moving as a slow speed as it way. Another 1 Train just left and it was entering slowly. Also, we need to remember the guy was behind the glass with goggles. When the bottle hit, all it did was a small spin-the-bottle motion.
I believe you, man.
I know what you're saying about rudeness though.
A few years ago, I was boarding a bus in an unusual location for me, the Q44 at the end of the line at the Bronx Zoo. I mistook the end of the line (on East 180th) for the beginning (at Boston Road).
When the bus pulls in, I go to enter the bus. The driver starts screaming at the top of his lungs...Step off! Step off! The man was out of his mind.
Mystified, I retreated and soon found where the bus stop was. I took my time though, because i didn't want to ride with this guy, and got the next bus.
How come it couldn't have been, "Excuse me, but the first stop is over there, don't get on here."
After all, if a business treats its customers like crap, they won't be customers anymore.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Excuse me but if you wanted to move the bottle out of the way - errr, what about picking it up? Or what about pushing it with your feet? Admit it - you kicked it because you were thoughtless as to the act or the possible consequences. Next time, instead of acting like a common thug or jackass - think before you act.
YOU WERE WRONG - LET'S MOVE ON!!!!
Hey, how do you do text like that? I mean, I use the , , and , but nothing happens...I need help! :-(
I use very basic HTML tags. You can view the source codes in MS Explorer and see how it's done or get a primer on HTML. I bought HTML for Dummies but most of it was too advanced for me.
"I use very basic HTML tags. You can view the source codes in MS Explorer and see how it's done or get a primer on HTML. I bought HTML for Dummies but most of it was too advanced for me. "
Train Dude,
Get real. I know what you do for a living, and basic HTML is not beyond you.
I don't use it here on this site - but I fully admit it's pure laziness, nothing else.
Thanks, I'll remember that.
You do realize it worked? You put in < i >, < b >, and < u > (without spaces), and by doing that you added the codes. All you have to do is put < /i >, < /b >, or < /u > (again without spaces), at the end of the text you are changing so you don't make it run into the response section.
For example, if I did't put "< /font color >" at the end of "For example", the rest of the page would look like this:
Thank you very much!
Acutally you only put </FONT> You don't need to put color or anything after it, the tag and all of its attributes will close without you specifying the attribute.
BTW, some terms:
<TAG ATTRIBUTE="value">
That is closed with
</TAG> not </TAG ATTRIBUTE>
What does the speed of the train have to do with this???
What did **you** do to get that response. I notice you noly printed what happenede adfter some unknown incident.
I am a railfan too and as such I enjoy sharing the system with other railfans but everyone should act civilized.
I ask- what did you do to get the response. Did you throw something or act in an unruly manner?
In any society, the group decides what is proper. The City of NY decided on rules for Transit.
I am pulling out random acts, none of ewhich I would actually dos icne I respect other people's property:
1-Could I draw on your walls
2- Could I throw bottles, glass, metal cans, plastic on your lawn
4-Could I seal something of yours
OF COURSE NOT!! Let's pretend I was at your residence and started drawing on your walls or got some friends to use your walls as a restroom you'd ask me and them to leave? Why is Transit different? They are not different.
While the language may not be appropriate, the C/R was within his rights to ask you to behave. If you wish to be a responsible member of asociety please learn to obey the rules or find an uninhabited island and make your own society so we can come to your island and break your rules!
What are you supposed to do??? Am I hearing you right???
Listen to the man!!! Evidently you had it coming. That's pretty mild compared to some of the things I said to punk kids in my 21 years as a cop.
And the police expects to get some amount of respect from the "punk kids" from what you said? Right...
Sounds like a lame-o excuse for some cop bashing. After all, it was your stupidity that caused the entire incident.
Careful there, Sarge. Some posters here on this board would not want to hear about how you would chew out some kid who was acting like a jerk!
>>> That's pretty mild compared to some of the things I said to punk kids in my 21 years as a cop. <<<
And in my days of running in the Manhattan streets in the ‘40s, it was not only what the beat cop said, but the way he made sure you would remember it and not have to be reminded again that was effective.
Tom
Being a C/R who has had bottles thrown at him ,spit at,and a a physical confrontation with a passenger these are my 2 cents.Honestly
It wasnt that big of a deal you were cursed at ,but you still got on the train and it didnt escalate.So dont rat the guy out ,But he was wrong for what he said.I personally know a C/R who was taken OOS and put NWA (no work available) for 45 days, from a passenger saying he spit at her and said "have a nice F ing Day" 45 days non paid is rough and unnessarry But thats what we go through so everyone think twice about what you want to complain about ,I am not justifying letting train crews do whatever they want complain if the situation deserves but remember what your complaining about could take food out of a families mout for almost 2 months.
"I am not justifying letting train crews do whatever they want complain if the situation deserves but remember what your complaining about could take food out of a families mout for almost 2 months."
That's why the C/R needs to "put brain in motion before moving mouth."
At the same time, I would strongly support the suspension of all transit privileges (for a couple of months at least) for anyone menacing or harming a transit employee, and I would also support a zero tolerance policy by transit (similar to a zero tolerance policy for shoplifting. If you cause a problem on a train or platform, the TA will prosecute you. Period. No exceptions).
I would never advocate a zero tolerance policy, since zero tolerance is usually a euphemism for zero intelligence.
I guess I'll just wait and see till what happens next time I see him...
In all likelihood, he isn't going to remember any of the three of you - unless you go do something silly again.
Uhh, wrong. I saw him again as I was getting off the 1 today, he was the conductor of my train and he gave me this evil glare.
Clayton, where did this first incident take place?
Chambers Street, uptown platform on the 1.
So how was the conductor able to chase you up the stairs? He should have been on the train unless there was a GO I am not aware of.
Chambers is the official terminus of the 1. No crew change though, just the green holding lights are there. Once the train stopped and he opened the doors, he walked up the stairs.
I know that they don't change crews there, so there is no reason for him to be going up the stairs, although the train can't go anywhere without him.
They stop at Chambers uptown for about 3 minutes at max sometimes...maybe more! You have to live in New York City to see what I mean.
Just because I am not a New Yorker doesn't mean I haven't seen it. I was there on August 20 of 2001 waiting for Redbirds on the 2 and saw quite a few 1s go by and they did sit there for quite some time, but I have never seen crew members leave the train there. Are they allowed to leave the train at that station?
>>>....I was there on August 20 of 2001...<<<
Well over a YEAR ago. Try riding the system daily.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was there [Chambers] on August 20 of 2001 waiting for Redbirds on the 2 and saw quite a few 1s go by and they did sit there for quite some time, but I have never seen crew members leave the train there. Are they allowed to leave the train at that station?
As passengers are not required to leave the trains, I would imagine that the crewmembers cannot leave.
Passengers are allowed to be on trains with no crew members present. It happens all the time at terminals.
Boy, you guys must have REALLY made an impression on him. In five years, the only 'person' I've ever seen again was the idiot who spit in my face. He was dumb enough to get back on my my train at the same station a week later. Unfortunately, he had no idea - until the police took him off at Pacific. The general, run-of-the-mill annoyances fall out of memory within minutes.
MBTA recently stopped the testing of the Type 8's because they are now blowing some sort of breaker that has to do with the breakig system. The MBTA responded with a G/O for any movementof Type 8's are to be a dead tow till Breda corrects this problem. The recent problms have pushed back the date the cars were going to return to service. There is no time given by the T or Breda of when the problem will be corrected . Stevie
The (T) should return those cars to Breda and get their money back. They're like what, 2 years old and STILL not working right?
Actually, they're four years old! Yes, the T needs to make Breda pay through the nose for all the problems the Type 8's have been having! I'm glad they went with Siemens for the new Blue Line cars. Maybe they should go to Siemens for streetcars while they're at it!
Why are the current Blue Line cars being replaced? As I recall, they are about 22 years old and similar to the Orange Line Cars (obviously shorter, with only two side doors and pans on the roof). The Orange Line cars, to my knowledge, are not being replaced now. So why the Blue Line cars?
I'm not from Boston (have travelled there many times, though), so any answer would be appreciated. Thank.s
I think a # of them are having body problems. the remaining cars in good shape are to be transfered to the orange line.
Guess that their clearance profile matches the Orange Line as well - but no doubt the pantographs would have to be removed for vertical clearance. I guess this also means the Orange Line needs more equipment.
Guess that their clearance profile matches the Orange Line as well - but no doubt the pantographs would have to be removed for vertical clearance. I guess this also means the Orange Line needs more equipment.
The Blue Line cars are suffering from frame rot due to the salty conditions in Eastie (East Boston) and Revere. Recently, a duece's frame was rebuilt in Hornel, NY. This is the test pair to see if rebuilding 24 cars is doable. This duece (622-623) will be watched closely and be evaluated when the new cars start arriving in 2 to 3 years.
These 24 cars would be used for 3 eight car trains on the Orange Line. 8 car Blues = 6 car Oranges. Increased shop time is expected on the Orange due to the age of that fleet. As these cars use the same mechanical components, it really is the ideal solution. If they have to order 18 cars to fill this maintenance gap, they may be mongrels and not compatible with the new fleet that is to be ordered in the next 8-10 years.
What are you talking about? I thought that the proposal was to have Orange Line cars rebuilt to replace Blue Line cars, so that the Blue Line cars could be scrapped and the Orange Line would get new cars. The reason it is this way round is because Blue Line has a wider loading gauge than Orange Line. Orange Line cars are same gauge as Green Line Cars (about 6.5'), and the Blue Line cars are wider (7' or so) and the Red Line cars are the widest (8' or so). Therefore Blue Line cars should not fit on the Orange Line.
Am I spewing crap?
AEM7
Yes, AEM, you are :-) The plan is to have eight Blue line cars run on the Orange Line (after rebuild), as 8xblue = 6xorange.
Blues are shorter than Oranges, but the same width. All the details are on the NETransit site. Click on the line of your choice. On the Blue Line page, there's info on this activity.
Thanks for setting him straight, Todd. Actually I found out that while the Blue and Orange cars are the same width at the belt-line, the Blues are slightly narrower at the floor line. They will have to put small extenders on the door thresholds to have the proper gap at the platforms.
BTW, if the 622-623 program doesn't work out, these two would be ideal candidates for STM.
Increased shop time is expected on the Orange due to the age of that fleet....If they have to order 18 cars to fill this maintenance gap, they may be mongrels and not compatible with the new fleet that is to be ordered in the next 8-10 years.
Why not just reduce Orange Line service accordingly, to free up additional sets for maintenance? You can always put them all out at the peak, and just have less off-peak service. If long-term shop time is required, you could just short-turn Orange Line trains at the north end. The Malden end of the line chews up so many vehicle hours and achieves much lower ridership than the Forest Hills end of the line.
AEM7
Worse, they're actually four years old and still not in service, or even limited service. I don't think the Boeings were quite as bad as this.
-Robert King
because the state economy and budget is in a sham, alot of things will have to be put on hiatus until improvement is seen. the mayor is looking at cut backs on funds to the mta and many other agencies state wide. to curve the fair raise, an idea of reducing rail service and layoffs are being thought of.
now, talking to a friend of mine that is heavy on the politics (i think he is wrong half the time)says that to go along with the planned ways of saving the states economy and bringing the budget up to par, the Governor is so looking at stopping the order of the Alstom R-160. i was so arguing with him that it will not stop because the order was put in. he says that the state will not pay for them. and i told him that the money was coming from this fiscal year budget not next years. then he started mixing up the MTA and the PANYNJ (he is not a fan of the subways, he is glad it takes him from point a to b)and i told him to wait 30 months to be proven wrong.
i started to think, can the MTA or the Governor stop an order before it is finished are while its in progress; the order of rail cars and related equipment for any reason? and if they were to stop it now wouldn't that be a lawsuit against them? responses to a buzzing mind is greatly appreciated.
There won't be ANY real answers to this until mid-January when the 2003 budget is released by the governor's office and the usual late budget process begins. I've heard the same thing out of people who work for the Division of the Budget, which actually CRAFTS that sausage. But for now, they're looking for ANYTHING they can cut. Add politics, stir, and presto, instant sausage.
But right now, they're looking over the numbers (a LOT worse than they ever expected and getting worse daily) and no decisions have been made other than "we is in deep poo." Don't expect any answers though until mid January. Right now, anything's possible as the bureaucrats scrounge for every penny they can spot. They haven't even tallied up the expenses column yet for all the promises that were made just for the election since new pork was being dispensed on election day. :(
dayum! we is gonna need some good EX-Lax to get out of this deep poo. i support the creation of state and federal rebound tax at a flat rate of 1 dollar per working person, and a commuter tax for outsiders coming into the 5 boroughs. my imagination is too radical though i wish these things would be heavily supported by the people and the governments nationwide
Nah, no 'lax will be needed ... the sheet will be flowing free for the next couple o' years, literally a Texas gusher.
Tax those damn SUV's. Why should anybody be living in luxury why we all suffer!!!
"Tax those damn SUV's. Why should anybody be living in luxury why we all suffer!!!"
I think the word you are looking for is "WHILE". As for the thrust of your post - it's very easy for a person who pays no taxes to suggest that others be taxed more heavily. I wonder if you were not living on the public dole would you be so quick to suggest taxing people. Ah, but alas, we'll never know. BTW - I don't drive an SUV.
Back when I didn't live in the middle of nowhere and I had a job, and had to pay taxes, yet I still felt the same way as today.
Excess doesn't make much sense to me. Like I said, I have been spending too much time in Greenvale. :-o
"Tax those damn SUV's. Why should anybody be living in luxury why we all suffer!!!"
I think the word you are looking for is "WHILE". As for the thrust of your post - it's very easy for a person who pays no taxes to suggest that others be taxed more heavily. I wonder if you were not living on the public dole would you be so quick to suggest taxing people. Ah, but alas, we'll never know. BTW - I don't drive an SUV.
"Why should anybody be living in luxury?" Perhaps because they earned it. You know like worked for it.
"why (while) we all suffer". Are you suffering John? You don't work. Those of us who do, involuntarilly support you while you live in your own little Peter-Pan world. FOr you, every dsy is Saturday. You do nothing but play. How the FU@K are you suffering?
That was pretty mean... BTW, how do you know all that stuff about Qtraindash7?
He tell people (posts) it all the time, just read his next post and we can hear over and over how life is so unfair to him.
Oh, I see. Thanks For responding to my post!!
But you were correct. The post was mean - and I offer no apology for it.
Oh yeah, I play. Lets see, I have to walk 15 min TWICE a week to the nearest laundromat.
I have to do errands, like supermarket shopping. That's a 30 minute trip, twice a week.
And where I live, buses only run hourly. Did I mention I suffer from Irritable bowel syndrome, anxiety disorder, and depression?
I'd love to have a job. But with all this garbage goin on I just can't handle it.
The only fun days I have is once, maybe twice a week. And often I cant even get any sleep, because drunks are screaming out at 4am.
If you could take away my IBS, mental illness, and put me in a decent area to live in, I'd be at a job in no time.
(Again, too much time in Greenvale. Wondering if roast pork is worth all the torture of seeing snobs and getting all upset over it)
Now imagine if you add a full time job to your list and you'll know what it's like to be many other people. The ONLY person that can help you is yourself. Sorry, but saying "if you..." won't get you much sympathy, especially from people who took initiative themselves to be successful (such as myself, although I have 1.5 years before my hard work pays off). Of course, asking others for help will go a long way in getting your life together. There are many people who gladly help you (I know I would help one of my friends or whomever if they needed it, hell I plan on buying $50 worth of dry goods for one of those Christmas donation programs at my work), but no one will bring it to you on a golden platter.
Not asking for a golden platter. I would just like to be in a location that would make it bearable to find work and do household errands. Most people I know agree, Sea Cliff is tough, transit wise.
Also you have to remember the IBS. It's one of the reasons I cant eat in McDonalds.
One young lady(dont go there, she's engaged) I know who takes the bus has a part time job. She has to take two buses (from Glen Head to Great Neck), and often the trip can take 2 hours. She is so stressed out over the commute, and she lives with her parents (who take care of errands). You dont know until you try getting around solely on LI Bus, on the north shore.
Again, most people I know, from my doctors and case workers agree why it is difficult for me to manage a job.
and here it is ,I thought you guys were talkin' about the R160 contract.....
I just hope the R160 contract goes through, it is important. Especially when the R44s die out. The R44's are so bad, I cant see them around even 5 years from now.
And even though I love the slants, they seem to have roofs made of duct tape! If we dont get the R160 order, I fear the future B division car shortage will dwarf the "problems" we have now.
John - you are correct as usual. After all, what would I know anout IBS? 7 members of my family suffer from it in its various forms. I, myself have been dealing with it since 1982. Despite it, I keep working and take damn few days off because of it. Go get some prednisone & Asacol.
You want to talk about depression. I'll show you my pay stub some time. See what happens to a fairly descent salary after the entitlement programs (such as the one that keeps you railfanning) are deducted. That's depressing. Depression and anxiety - go get some Buspar.
Now don't get me wrong, John. Someone has convinced you that you are a physical and mental cripple, unable to hold a job. So you've become our burden. We live with that. It's just that you sound like a FU@K!NG asshole when you take issue with people who work hard for a living so they can get things like an SUV. If it were not for people like you - we'd have to work a lot less hard to get our toys. You don't want any more lectures - go get a FU@KING JOB!!!!!
Train Dude, that was pretty mean. Qtraindash7 already said that it isn't possible for him to work. We should offer him some support and understanding instead of yelling.
Look, you can call it mean or tough love or anything else that fits your needs. I think it's mean for John to criticize those of us who aspire to live better lives and he feels we shouldn't. Did you even bother to read the portion of John's post that I object to? Perhaps you should check with John before you spend your money. See if he approves of your purchase.
I read Qtraindash7's posts and interpreted his war on SUV's as a simple on war of excess.
Exactly! I own 9 vehicles. 4 motorcycles and 5 autos. I also have a model train collection worth several thousand dollars. I'll be damned if I'm going to let a malcontent like John determine for me what excess is.
Whoa! Do you own any R142 models? I wanna play with the announcements!
No! I have the R-42s, R-21, R-17 and R-36 sets, all with protosound.
Wow ... I figured you of all people would have filled up the yahd with 32's instead. So many IRT cars ... OK, now I'm finally onto you buddy ... you're planning a coup across the fence there and have little GI Joes hiding out in your IRT cars ... no WONDER they have orders at Jerome yard to shoot to maim if they see you trying to come up that fence from the Concourse yard side. :)
I have R-32s, R-38s, R-15s, R-33 singles, R-1/9s, and AB Standards in my (HO scale) fleet. Does that put me on the other side of the fence? :)
I'm hoping for approval of my next 3 year capital improvement program for a purchase of R-40 slants and R-42s! The stockholders are discussing that now ....
--Mark
Hahaha ... I was just surprised to see a dyed in the wool B division grunter to have so many UFO's on his property. Yours is DEFINITELY a more balanced fleet. Maybe we can get a petition signed. :)
But I'm wondering about Dude there, so much IRT envy I wonder if I'd dare open up the crew door for him on 1689 now. Heh.
Nothing that dramatic. In fact, quite the opposite. I started eviction procedings for the IRT cars nesting in my yard. The little fellas are takin over the place. But down in my basement, on the NYCT Fitchburg Division, all subway cars, R-42 or R-17 are 50' long. That's just the way MTH builds em.
Does anyone make R142 class train models? I think it would be kool to let me get my practice in Smash-a-Train!!
A friend and I areworking on a five-car set, complete with operating passenger doors and interior lighting/details. Progress has been slow...
Well, that's not authentic. You have to provide blinking interior lights, doors that don't open, chipmunk announcements of stations in Nebraska and trucks that fall off. Sheesh. :)
LMAO!! I hate new tech! Bring back the arnines and triplexes and D-Types and redbrids and standards!! Down with the R142's!! Hippos suck!!!!
I remember when R-10's were "new tech" ... damned wimpy SMEE. :)
Yeah one day future railfans will be crying over the scrapping of the R142's, and despise the new trains that will be replacing them. The new cars always seem to be hated at the beginning, when they first arrive, probably because they are replacing much beloved cars, that have many happy memories.
Even the Low V's must have been hated when they first arrived.
Nah, usually it's just the nutcakes like US that get offended by shiny new trains. I remember when the air conditioned cars came on the railroad and in the summertime, nobody complained. Of course the lack of foamer glass today makes things different I s'pose but then again, you didn't have 10 cars worth of folks fighting over the front window either.
My own bias about the older cars was RUNNING them, they were a treat to operate. I really wasn't impressed by R10's because they were all beat to hell by the time I came on board, the 32's were OK but didn't work like the older cars (too easy) and I *despised* the "joystick" cars (44's and such) ... I was always happy when I got a junker to run and I loved the sights, sounds and smells when I just rode on them.
I s'pose we all adopt what we grew up with as "ours" ... and you're probably right about the LoV's though I can tell you for SURE that when them pesky rotbirds first showed up and shoved our beloved LoV's into the dumpster, most of the geese were HAPPY to have new trains while us foamy types did a very ANGRY slow burn of disgust at the cheap tin cans that replaced REAL trains. :)
What if the 142s are replaced by personal beaming devices?
Of course, NYCT personal beaming devices will be offered with optional fixed block signalling...
HAND throws! Hand throws! :)
The Lo-Vs didn't replace anything. They simply augmented the IRT fleet. Chances are the riding public didn't know the difference between a Hi-V and a Lo-V, let alone a Steinway from a Flivver. As long as the train got them to where they were going, everything was hunky dory.
The Lo-Vs didn't replace anything. They simply augmented the IRT fleet. Chances are the riding public didn't know the difference between a Hi-V and a Lo-V, let alone a Steinway from a Flivver. As long as the train got them to where they were going, everything was hunky dory.
True, but I was talking about railfans, not the general public. I always say that you could send something like a BART train down Broadway (I'm talking figuratively, not physically) and most people would just look up and say to themselves, "Oh good the train is here.", get on and not even give it a second thought.
Hell, geese have been known to step onto the revenue collector and freaking FLATCARS on WORK TRAINS ... nothing new there, if it stops, must be MTA going my way. :)
That's what I thought when that quasi-Aqueduct Special R-1/9 train pulled into Broadway-Nassau all those years ago. It stopped, the doors opened, and we piled in. I watched it leave 42nd St., and it turned off to Queens from the n/b express track.
QVACK. :)
Neener-neener.:)
Hey - I resemble that remark!:)
A friend and I are working on a five-car set, complete with operating passenger doors and interior lighting/details. One of the cars will be powered, so the train will move itself. Progress has been slow...
Kewl!
I figured the "real" yard collection of IRT luxuryliners was just your hedge against the wall falling down (after all, they were planning to get them wet anyway) ... but still ... hang your head in shame for filling up your home yard with them A division toys. I woulda figured you'd corner the R32 market for your D train collection. I know ... you're going to weld teeny weeny floor sills on them IRT cars, no? :)
Awww....
4 motorcycles and 5 cars? Excess means above average by the way, and I consider you situation that.
Honestly I think its mean, but I have too agree with Train Dude on this. John is a nice guy but alot of other people deal with the same crap as him, but also has a stable job which they hate.
And I just find it funny on how a discussion on the R160 can turn into a game of "whos better than who"!
Let's face it, the R160 doesn't care who's better - it will accept all comers with doors open (make sure to pay your fare and no smoking please).
:0)
I didn't think that it was mean of Train Dude at all. He simply is calling it like he sees it (and it just happens to be the same way that I see it as well).
If John wants to get by with his government freebie, then so be it. But I simply do not understand how an individual who puts so much time and effort galavanting around the tri-state area for no purpose whatsoever cannot put forth the same effort with some decent employment. How does one travel sometimes 5 to 6 hours a day with IBS, but yet cannot work because of it? Maybe I'm missing something here.
Then again, considering his lack of a recent employment history, the job that he is able to get would probably pay less than his government entitlement. If I were him, I'd try to get a job with the MTA like station cleaner/custodian. Something fairly easy......and with a toilet nearby.
>>If I were him, I'd try to get a job with the MTA like station cleaner/custodian. Something fairly easy......and with a toilet nearby.<<
Yeah, and he would receive an employee Metrocard for free travel and eyeball more subway cars in one day than he would see in one week. Sounds like a win win situation to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why not? He's got nothing to lose by trying.
Well IBS is not all "loose movements". It is a condition where somedays you go to the toilet alot, and somedays you dont. Cramps and nausea are frequently brought on by stress, physical or mental. It was so bad back in 2000 (when my mom got really sick) I hardly was able to eat anything for months. And getting those nausea/cramp attacks and tremors. I wasnt able to go out at all.
I am on medication and fiber now, which eases the symptoms.
" But I simply do not understand how an individual who puts so much time and effort galavanting around the tri-state area for no purpose whatsoever cannot put forth the same effort with some decent employment. "
I dont know why you think that. I only do traveling to NYC or "fun" traveling once, maybe twice a week. I have two loads of laundry, but my cart can only hold one, so I have to make two trips to the laundromat (a 15 min walk) on different days. Laundry takes 3 hours.
I have to go to the supermarket 2 or 3 times a week, because I can only carry a few days worth of food with me. The nearest supermarket is a 20-30 min busride away (actually, Glen Cove has a supermarket, but no way to get there by bus).
I also have weekly therapy appointments. Taking this week for example, if you are all so curious on what I do
Monday:Laundry, be done at 1pm. Have to clear everything for contactor (wall). I take a 3:25pm bus to Szechuan, always runs late I get there at 4pm. I eat, pick up some drug items at the supermarket, then come home around 5:30pm or 6pm. If it rains all day, this will be real fun
Tuesday:Have an appointment, a 2 hour busride each way. Hopefully stop at Szechuan on the way home
Wednsday:Try to squeeze in that 2nd load of laundry if weather permits. In the afternoon, back to the supermarket, and szechuan. Then to my therapy appointment.
Thursday:A trip, maybe? I'm already tired from all the busrides and errands, and I'll have to clean up the place from the contractors.
Friday: Hopefully a trip, but if did that Thursday, then I have to go to supermarket again
Weekend:Rest and maybe another trip to the drugstore or supermarket
You have to remember that it is very difficult where I live to get around. I have hourly bus service and that is it.
The N21 bus stop is 3 blocks from my house. N21 usually takes 30 minutes to Great Neck, it is usually 5-15 min late most of the time
N27 bus stop is about 8 blocks, long blocks, or 1/2 mile from my place. Also often runs late, though more ontime than N21. 15-25 min to get to Greenvale. 45-55min to get to Roosevelt Field. An hour or more to Hempstead
If you break up my week, I spend about 7 to 10 hours waiting and riding LI Buses (mostly for errands)
6 hours at the laundromat
"Then again, considering his lack of a recent employment history, the job that he is able to get would probably pay less than his government entitlement."
Part of the problem indeed. If I go out and seek employment and get a minimum wage job, I would not be making any more money than now (remember Social security takes money away when you earn money, and my rent will go up).
I need to make $10 or more to do more than break even, or find a job off the books.
Gosh you should get the idea. Of course I'd rather my week look like this
Monday-work
Tuesday-work
Wednsday-work
Thursday-work
Friday-work
5 days a week may be too much for me, but I could definately handle 4 if I didnt have all those days for errands. To think, if I could just get a weeks worth of laundry and food shopping done in one day, there'd be alot more time for work, as well as play.
BUT, because I can only carry at the most two bags of groceries atrip, that only lasts me for a few days. And there aint a supermarket right around the corner.
What I would like is another place to live in a better location. I'd even accept a continency that would require me to seek employment. I'm not asking for a silver platter, just a place to live where going to the supermarket, or going anywhere for that matter, isn't a tiring trek.
Dont you think when I do go to the city and see all the office workers, I want to be one of them? Because I sure do. :-)
dude,IM not knocking you around like some folks are here, but get a job.... part time at least... 20 hours a week,then you will like yourself a little more.
Well I cant expect anyone else to understand my own problems, and perhaps, I shouldn't try to understand why other people behave the way they do.
But if I can find a way to trim those errands to one day, I will get a job.
Until then, I just cant handle it. Nuff said (this is my last post on the subject of my own doing)
hey,i understand better than you think.... and it's okay...you do what you have to do. I guess someday ,you'll find your calling in life.
Have you considered moving to a location which has better access to shopping? Even on Long Island, there are apartments closer to shopping centers than where you live now.
You're making excuses. Yes, your errands take a long time but youre not taking step to manage them better.
It's all a matter of scheduling and time-budgeting. I leave the house at 6:30 each weekday morning to get the LIRR and don't get home until a little after 7 most evenings. That's 12 1/2 hours out of the house each day. Plus, now that I'm into weightlifting, I spend at least an hour at the gym five or more evenings a week. Add it up, there's not a whole lot of free hours in the day, yet I manage to get everything done. I'm not some super efficiency expert either, time budgeting has never been a particular skill of mine, but out of necessity I've learned to manage. You can too.
Five days of work is too much?
You need a job that pays more then $10 an hour?
And I'm upset about working two jobs and some weeks not having a single day off?
I now face the fact that my wife will lose her job (we are only a 3 job houshold) at the end of the month. That I will lose my job at the end of the year.
PLEASE tell me how I can have a life like yours?? It looks like a vacation.
Oh when I lose my full time job and try to collect unemployment and live off the money of others, they will deduct any money I earn on my 2nd job from the benefit.
On my 2 job life I also find time for recreation at a little place in CT (part time job avg. 20 hrs week I can have weeks of now work and overtime on a parttime job on other weeks).
You are being mean. I shouldnt even reply.
You know what, I'll admit I was wronga bout one thing. I keep letting all this stuff get to me. I shouldnt do that.
I keep letting all this stuff get to me. I shouldnt do that.
THat is very true. You would feel much better if you wouldn't let SUVers, or Greenvalers, or Sea Cliffites (is that a word?), or any of this other stuff you may have problems with get to you. WHo cares what they drive or how much money they make in Greenvale? People should not make over-generalizations about people who don't work (although try to take some of the advice, it could help), just like you shouldn't over-generalize people who live in a certain community, or drive SUV's, etc.
Hey, I drive a Ford Explorer (which I bought used), am far from rich, do not drive "road rage", and am far from a snob - although I don't live in Greenvale :)
Also Greenvale has the best roast pork around, I shouldnt let anything get in the way of that. :-)
Could it be you have IBS because you come off as a very unhappy, depressed and nervous person? Maybe I don't understand the condition, but there is an over the counter product called immodium which may help you out.
"Could it be you have IBS because you come off as a very unhappy, depressed and nervous person? Maybe I don't understand the condition, but there is an over the counter product called immodium which may help you out. "
Irritable bowel syndrome is a poorly understood disorder (or perhaps set of disorders). It is NOT a psychiatric diagnosis (meaning the problem isn't "all in your head.") However, stress and anxiety can trigger it - so properly treating anxiety disorder can help reduce the symptoms of irritable bowel disease. So a psychiatrist can help you with both problems. With irritable bowel, invasive procedures like colonoscopy are usually not necessary.
Treatments include a high-fiber diet and exercise and stress management; effective drugs include tegaserod (Zelnorm), a 5HT4 receptor agonist, which is the only drug approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for women with IBS and constipation, and alosetron (Lotranex), which was taken off the market due to serious side effects but is being reintroduced for patients who can't get help any other way.
Consultation with and cooperation with a doctor are essential.
John,
Let's get real here.
There are a lot of people out there with IBS, Anxiety Disorder and all kinds of other things - and they work.
In fact, an acquaintance of my wife has something worse - Crohn's Disease - and he's had multiple surgeries. He was an aerospace engineer, then went to law school, and now he's an attorney.
As a physician, I have participated in the health care of young people suffering from cancer, auto-immune diseases, mental illnesses, etc. who have been able to get meaningful employment.
Are you under the care of a psychiatrist? If you are, are you following your doctor's advice?
Have you asked for job counseling? With medication and counseling, you can hold a job.
A relative of mine has anxiety disorder, not well managed - yet she raised children (including a special needs child), worked as a bookkeeper and teacher's aide, and even charged $$$ to sew dresses for people in her own home.
I hate to break the news to you, but Train Dude, rough though he might be in his posts, is correct - you offer only excuses for not working. And they're not legitimate.
Not only should they tax those damn SUVs. They should also teach people how to drive them since many of them drive the blasted things halfway over the double yellow line much of the time. Another thing that they should tax are those damn cell phones since people talk into them wherever they are and do not care about those who aren't interested in their conversations.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah I almost got hit by SUV's twice, driven by someone talking on the cellphone. I also almost never see anyone using the hands free devices, people still talk the regular way while driving.
They also cant see pedestrians as well due to the height and shape of the thing.
Yeah I think maybe SUV drivers should get special training, since they usually dont handle the road like cars do.
I have to be VERY aware crossing the street anywhere, but especially in Nassau county where they dont always give you enough time to cross. Good thing I can walk fast. :-)
Think you have to walk fast. In Westchester County where I live sometimes you have to RUN across the street to dodge those SUVs. It is worth your life sometimes when you're driving and one of those behemoths is going in the other direction halfway across the double yellow line. The drivers of those SUVs generally have absolutely no consideration for others. They think that they OWN the road. Never mind the fact that others have to share it with them. :-)
#3 West End Jeff
Cellular implants for women before age of pregenancy!!! First they start as jaywalkers on city streets steeping out in front of your lawfully moving vehicle and then they graduated to SUVs paying no attention to moving traffic.
Got to school
learn the golden rule
and earn a decent living
feed, and educate your family
save for your childrens education
buy any vehicle you want
pay the high taxes on gasoline if you want to drive a v8 sport ute
PS: Lincoln town cars and taxi cabs get worse fuel ecomomy then most sport ute's
The new trailblazers use V6's not V8 these days
Why all the meat references, Selly-boy? :-)
Yeah with all the mention of pork around I am bound to get hungry.
Something I learned when in government - a popular saying among the politicians, "there's two things that you don't want to SEE being made, sausage and the law." ... legislatures are commonly referred to by insiders as "sausage works" and the executive agencies as "helium mines" ... ask any insider. :)
Somebody gettin smacked if the R160 is put on hold!
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Good, more time to enjoy Railfan Windows.
I doubt the first phase of the R-160 order will be cancelled. The capital program is financed with debt and federal money -- state tax contributions were cut off a decade ago. So unless they are thinking of pulling a Beame shuffle and using the capital program to finance operating costs, I think projects underway are OK.
Depending on the overall level of debt and federal transit aid, I'd say the Second Avenue Subway will disappear, along with most new capital contracts that are not safety related. They will blame the economy. We know better. The only work that will proceed for what is now New York City Transit is that financed by the city itself.
Suburban improvements will continue using dedicated MTA taxes and tolls, in part raised in New York City.
Depending on the overall level of debt and federal transit aid, I'd say the Second Avenue Subway will disappear,
That sounds kind of familiar doesn't it? It's a broken CD, that seems to keep skipping.
The subway gods have never been too kind to the 2nd Ave subway.
Politically it will take too long to reap the voter benifit, so it makes no since to do it, i.e. if you're a new guy the work in progress won't get you re-elected & if you're a lame duck other projects are more likely to get you in the record books.
If we had had a Robert Mosses rapid transit kind of guy on day one of Pataki's term it might of happened. Instead we had George's man Virgal who did exactly what he was told.
yes yes. 95% of us dislike the French Canadians (they hate us too...Hell!everybody hates everybody!) and strongly dislike Bombardier Transportation. Many has said that they Screwed up the R-62A project. but now they are very Reliable. They screwed up the Acela Project, but Amtrak could be the blame for that also. Can't say they screwed up the Airtrain project because the cars aren't finished being examined to determine if they did. they are also are accused by many to have screwed up the R-142 Project as well because of the breaking flaw and a few other hiccups.
the M-7 is the only Bombardier Project that has seen reliability and no equipment problems in their history with New York. also the R-142 is now seeing less and less problems. i think so because if they weren't, you would see cars on the 2 and 5 borrowed from other irt lines.
after 2 screw ups and one Success, the MTA over the years has went back to Bombardier for more rail Equipment. do you guys think that will pick Bombardier again in the next 15-20 years for the replacement of the R-62 and62A projects? (if they need replacing) and the R-68/68A projects? if they were to get the contracts, on a scale of 1-10 how mad would you be?
1=who cares?
2=yeah but as long as i get to where i am going
3=yeah but at least there new trains or equipment
4=yeah and i hope they don't screw it up again
5=yeah and the MTA should've pic someone else
6=what was the MTA thinking?
7=Hell yess
8=Hell Yes and i will not ride a subway line using Bombardier built trains
9=i wouldn't ride the subway for my own safety and if there were such a police, i would arrest the MTA for Attempted Homicide with sour quality rail equipment
10=i would use Terrorist tactics to stop the unloading and shipment of Bompardier railcars to MTA Territory (i hope this one ain't too harsh)
responses greatly appreciated.
I'd be pissed! I'd be anything from level 6 to 11!
knowing how you feel about them, and supposedly they got the contract, would you be extremely surprised that they built problem free trains on this imaginary contract, but still hate them?
Bombardier is a very good manufacturer. Many people have the misconception that they make poor-quality trains by looking at the R142's, but it is so easy these days to be fooled. If anything, I have faith in them and I think senseless bashing them pretty much does nothing.
IF you feel Bombardier is so bad, write them a letter, expressing your feelings and see what you get for a reply.
i agree also. i think that they are good because i've seen their other projects go very well, for example the overhaul (what we called the GOH, what are R-30's and 40's whent through 12 years ago) of some Rail Cars of the London Underground, and also their Lightrails being used in Minnesota.
the main reason why i posted this message is because of the M-7. this model has finally proved the true background of bombardier and proved everybody else wrong that it builds crap. also because of the many times that even though they "screwed up" at contracts the MTA still went back to them for more rail vehicles. so my thought is that will they get another contract in 2017? or earlier? who knows.
so i on the scale of 1 to 10 i give it a 1.
Yes, quite true. I love the M-7's. Bombardier has such high standing in the world. They do stuff all over the world.
yes. and to be honest, i think they will get another MTA contract.
It may be the contract that replaces the R62 and R62A. According to info on the MTA's website, they will be scrapped by 2020.
The main issue with Bombardier, as far as I know, is quality control at the Plattsburgh, NY plant, where the R-142s are being built. To my knowledge, neither the London cars nor the Minneapolis light rail cars were built/rebuilt at that plant.
David
That seems to be it as I've seen post correlating to that plant. I have no idea as to why the issues are not resolved there. It would greatly improve Bombardier's image and reputation. Maybe the plant could use an overhaul? Who knows.
I'm not sure what an overhaul of the Plattsburgh plant would entail, or what it would accomplish. It's a new plant, which opened right before the R-142s started coming out of it. If an "overhaul" is needed, it's probably of personnel and procedures -- but I don't work there and I'm not on NYCT's assembly line inspection team, so I'm not in a position to say for sure whether that's what's needed or whether that's even been done already.
David
Really? Thanks for the clarification on the plant's construction.
well to say their is quality control problem at the Plattsburgh plant is no more. the M-7's came out of the same plant and they are running fine.
Really? So it is...
They've been running for, what, a week or two now? It's a bit early to be making final judgments, no?
same judgements applied to the R-143
You mean the R-143 which was pushed through its initial 30-day test period even though the test train was running around anonymous (no automated announcements or displays at all, not even the letter L) on at least one of those days?
The R-143 isn't a Bombardier product, BTW.
i know the R-143 isn't a bombardier product. i am saying that the thing of judging the m-7 is the same they did with the R-143. so i am saying the m-7 is reliable. it didn't have problems in testing and it so far hasn't had a problem on its 30 day test run as we type. yes this is its 30 day test run; the m-7
My problem with Bombardier is that they have consistently put out mediocre cars. Look at the R-62A. It's a stainless steel redbird for crying out loud! And they still found a way to f' it up. But I don't hold this against Bombardier only. All companies today make their products cheaper and charge more money. There's no way that the R-142's should have been having as many problems as they did, but I expected that especially after the R-130/131 had the problems that they had.
The entry of another carbuilder in the NYCT market (Alstom) can only bring good things for NYCT.
*Sigh* The R62A are not failures! They are fine to me while I ride them on the 7. As for Alstom, I suspect them of being the guys and gals behind the R142 incidents, just to kick Bombardier out of the competition. All in money.
*Sigh* The R62A are not failures!
I am referring to the early problems that the R-62A's faced. There's nothing wrong with them now, and I suspect that the same will eventually happen to the R-142's. But the fact the the R-62A's had problems on delivery only proves to me that Bombardier has serious problems.
so what makes you think that Alstom is gonna bring good things? one of the main reason Bombardier R-142 was having so many problems is because of the parts that Asltom supplied, such as the traction motor that has failed several times. R-130 made by Kawasaki was a test train R-131 made by bombardier was a test train R-131 lasted longer than R-130 in service but that doesn't count because they were test trains.
one of the main reason Bombardier R-142 was having so many problems is because of the parts that Asltom supplied, such as the traction motor that has failed several times.
Bombardier is responsible for the finished product of cars, NOT Alstom. This is what sunk the St. Louis Car Co. The R-44 was entirely their responsibility, and they failed. Thus, they did not get the R-46 order, period. By the same standards, If Bombardier puts out a crappy product, they are responsible for it, not each individual maker responsible for each individual part. If Alstom is making bum parts, Bombardier should cut them loose.
so what makes you think that Alstom is gonna bring good things?
More companies in the market, lower prices and better quality. It's a simple idea. Alstom could build ka-ka, and it wouldn't matter, because future orders would be cheaper.
yet half the things you say are wrong. a vendor can be held accountable for a bumbed out part. if the manufacturer assembled the part properly but the part doesn't work right or at all, then the maker of the part is too blame. and if Alstom screwed up on traction motors, then of course Bombardier will not use them in the future.
No, half of what I said was not wrong, none of it was wrong. Bombardier is responsible for the final product, that's who NYCT is buying the cars from. Alstom could indeed be held responsible for the failure of one of their own components (going back to the R-46, the Rockwell built trucks made Rockwell shoulder some responsibility, but Pullman was ultimately responsible), but in the end the real culprit will be bombardier. NYCT will say: "well bombardier? why is this part screwed up?" Bombardier cannot respond: "It wasn't our fault at all, ALSTOM DID IT!!!", because they are responsible for the finished product. A good non-subway example is the whole Firestone-Ford incident awhile back. Firestone merely supplied Ford with tires, but in the end, Ford ended up taking some responsibility (even though they did not make ANY tires). That's because when you buy a car, you buy on product from one company, not 70 different parts from 70 companies.
What amazes me is the way you defend Bombardier. Either: a). You're Canadian, and you think that the put-downs of bombardier are an insult to Canadians, b) You work for Bombardier or c) You have a shrine in your room with pictures of Bombardier executives and Bombardier products, and you worship it every night. (let's hope this is not you!)
#1 i am not Canadian. #2 i can defend bombardier as much as i want. i am not ignorant and biased as you are because unlike some people in here, i look at the many possibilities of how things happen, or get resolve. #3 i don't praise companies for their products. i am just happy the shit gets me from point A to B and tha fact it isn't a redbird. #4 i don't work for bombardier. #5 i can think what i want when i want and share my opinion when i want. if you don't like my opinion and have a real problem with it, then don't respond to it. #6 i never bashed you so don't bash me with your accusatory words i what am supposed to be. you have all rights to imagine who you are talking to but keeps the words to yourself about who they are. thats not so hard to do isn't it?
First off, when and how did I bash you? At no point did I call you a name, say your viewpoint was stupid or just dissmiss you as an incompetant jerk. I took your points seriously, and answered then with examples.
#1 i am not Canadian.
#4 i don't work for bombardier.
Another Subtalker who fails to understand when sarcasm is coming into play. That was something that was not meant to really reflect you. I doubt anyone has a bombardier shrine in their room, or elsewhere. And if they did, more power to 'em.
#2 i can defend bombardier as much as i want. i am not ignorant and biased as you are because unlike some people in here, i look at the many possibilities of how things happen, or get resolve.
This line is the one that REALLY irks me here. I wanna know how I am being the ignorant and biased one? I specifically stated in an earlier post that I held similar viewpoints toward Kawasaki. I also made all of my statements and backed them up with facts. How does this make me ignorant and biased? On the other hand, you have jumped in and insulted those who didn't like bombardier (not individually, but as a group) right after the airtrain crash. You blindly defend Bombardier, when they did not live up to their end of the bargain on the R-142 contract (at least in the beginning). You have not looked at the many possibilities, you've looked at how you can defend bombardier at all costs. In the last post, I made valid points and backed them up with facts, and you then post this garbage. The only possibility you're looking at in this post is the one where your arguments are exhausted, and then you resort to insulting the poster.
#5 i can think what i want when i want and share my opinion when i want. if you don't like my opinion and have a real problem with it, then don't respond to it.
You're the one who had beef with my opinion. First, you told me I was wrong, when I wasn't and then when I use facts to back up my statements, you launch this crap. You're the one who has a problem with my opinion.
you have all rights to imagine who you are talking to but keeps the words to yourself about who they are. thats not so hard to do isn't it?
I said that either you were canadian, you worked for bombardier or you worshipped bombardier (...did you really think this was serious?). If you find being Canadian or working at Bombardier offensive, than I apologize. Otherwise, you need to loosen up a bit, and realize that no one insulted you in that post.
like i said. if you have a problem. don't respond to my posts. and i see its not a simple task with you. i'll speak my garbage like you speak yours.
MEGA: just accept a little 'tongue in cheek' humor. I do this work very seriously...at my age, this will probably be my last job. I do not care of the origin of these trainsets...Bombardier du Canada or Kawasaki Heavy Industries...just know what is in my face during inspection is a lack of quality and care. These trainsets do have quality manufactured USA components but how they are used and the assembly processes in the construction of the trainsets has led to major 'Train Troubles' which has already been disclosed on this board.
Sad to say that NYCTA will have to 'eat poor decisions' but what that will lead to is continuous employment opportunities for Car Inspectors. TA work is excellent work. CI Peter
i don't have a problem with it. i just brought the subject to start the usual online converse and they way this trainloco person came at me sounded like fighting words. so i fired back.
How do you make a muffin??? Flour, some water, butter, sugar, salt and some yeast in a decent muffin pan baked in an oven of the correct temperature. Now, if you get someone who cannot understand the assembly of the ingredients you get 'burnt baseballs.' The ingredients can be A+ and the results unmarketable.
BTW MEGA: ten million dollar R142 trainset I did inspection upon Monday still remains out of service upon discovery and my reports.
>>>the M-7 is the only Bombardier Project that has seen reliability and no equipment problems in their history with New York<<<
Hmm...what about the Shoreliner III and IV push-pulls that Metro-North runs (and the NJT Comet IVs)? Aren't they pretty reliable, or were there problems that I don't know of?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
BTW, I would give anything from a 4-7 rating...
well besides those which are push-pulls. this is an EMU a far more complex piece of machinery. and this is the first EMU made by bombardier in new york history to run without problems even in its earlier testing stages
National Anthem: 'Oh Canada, your trainsets are such....'
Me, post my opinion??? Get into more hot water???
TA picked up on the R-62As and made them work.
R-142s were 'assembled' stateside with a whole batch of problems.
Postal Delivery vehicles from American General have lasted 20 years.
My prediction is R-142s may go the way of Grumman Flexible and
won't make five of their thirty year lifespan BUT TA may eventually
pick up on them and turn them into decent transport (sans the 'steerable trucks' and a lot of the BS software.)
Numbah Five, Numbah Five, this is a Numbah Five train to Dyre Avenue.
CI Peter
dude... get a grip. you sound like your are just ranking on them because its canadian. maybe you say they aren't reliable but if thats the case why are they still running up and down day in and day out? convince me that they will not be reliable for 5 years. and how many sets are you talking about that is so claimed to cause problems? 1 or 2? i am no expert, and i don't do your job. but, i think you are exagerating and if you aren't, atleast be happy that you get to fix it everyday because it keeps you busy.
Trainsets are NOT Canadian per se...they are assembled by U.S. citizens by contract in good old Plattsburg, New York. I like to keep busy...simply cannot stand idle time...continue to take the toughest assignment of inspection...'troubles.' I do not exagerate problems, am careful what I post per NYCTA regulations, try to explain everything in reader-friendly detail and never lie as a matter of Faith. R142s are safe to travel upon...we make sure of that because it is our job. The problems are not with one or two trainsets...they are recurrent even though they don't surface all at the same time or even frequently...and are a result of poor assembly practice by persons with minimal mechanical skill or common sense.
Yesterday, my assignment was propulsion service on two R142 cars.
There was a lot to do and temporary heating systems were at full blast in the shop...far worse than summer heat. I checked a few things that some may overlook to save time assuming this is a new trainset...what I found took five cars out of service which could have been repaired with an ordinary automotive 'Helicoil Repair Kit.'
Speed will require truck replacement...all due to careless assembly.
This costs TA and riders money...revenue was lost. CI Peter
you make them sound like crap everytime you talk about them. now i can understand the little things bring them out of service. you make it sound like its the whole shebang is giving problems. you were assigned to propulsion. may i make the prediction that the set pulled out of service was 6501-6505? 5 cars. i rode that a few days ago (i think it was thursday or wendesday) and it was in a jerking motion while running. i think i got stuck on that same set in the summer 2001 between pelham pkwy and allerton ave. "speed will require truck replacement" are you saying that the speeds that the train travels at are wrecking the bogies? because they are flimsy? that last statement is unclear to me. please explain. and one more thing, how often do these reappear? just want to know.
I'm too busy to keep my 'butcher books' in order...turns out that a pair of cars had reports of gearbox noise disclosed after my inspection...we do not always get all paperwork and history. The repair necessary could have been done with readily available automotive parts...what did happen is that the whole five car trainset had to be pulled out of service to accomodate one simple repair. Speedy repair would be a complete truck replacement to put the trainset back in RTO because a housing put in place before wheels were pressed in place cannot be replaced or repaired by TA or vendors procedures...the work required which could be done in one hour or less will be my 'employees suggestion' Same for Air Conditioning units...one car has one of two failed and five cars come out of service. As for speed, there is no damage to truck units as they are not flimsy. Bogies are only on 'B' cars and remain unaffected. System speed for R142s is held at 40 MPH max per RTO schedules. Slowly but surely, TA Engineering has been after Bombardier and WabTek
to improve tread brake units. We all know that trackage is not up to date BUT Bombardier did contract to provide trainsets to sucessfully run upon them. MEGA, we could overlook all the little problems and pass the inspections but our employment future depends upon maintaining passenger and system safety. My crews 'upstairs-carbody' spends more time addressing repair of vandalism not realising that they have the most important job...seeing to it that doors are properly secured with proper T/O indication...THAT work requires full understanding of propulsion and undercar control systems as well as door controls. This is not your great-grandparents subway system anymore...this is 21st century running 19th century trackage. CI Peter
cool i got it. it makes your head spin and want to ask the question "what is priority". but i got it now. thanks for the clarification.
Thankyou my friend. The bottom line is not to allow a trainset to go back into service which could be unsafe or fail in RTO service. Our heads don't spin...just locked into a path that warns us we could be held responsible for a catastrophic failure for skipping a few steps.
That R142 'pull-out'...I discovered something simple that others would have overlooked assuming it was a new trainset.
no it doesn't make your head spin. but it sure makes mine do. lol
Never question 'TheJuice'!
Thanks. It's not a matter of 'question' but just ask and I'll try to explain to the best of my ability. If I don't have the answer, I'll make the effort to find out. The work is good, God Bless to all. CI Peter
There is a diamond W on the rollsign. But what about the V, Are there any Diamond V?
The diamond V does not exist.
IIRC, the diamond W only exists on the old roll signs.
THE FOLLOWING WAS POSTED BY STEPHEN BAUMAN
We are talking about 3 signals: A; B and C. A is located just before the station; B is located in the station and C is located just beyond the station. Signals A and C have 3 aspects; signal B does not have a green aspect. Rail segments A-B and B-C are occupied by the train, when the train is in the station. First, segment A-B and then B-C are no longer occupied, as the train leaves the station, The tripper associated with signal B goes up, when segment A-B is not occupied but segment B-C is. The tripper associated with signal C goes up, when segment B-C is no longer occupied. The aspect of signal A turns to yellow within 2 seconds of the tripper associated with signal C goes up. This means that all the signals before signal A have will have a green aspect in a couple of seconds. A bit later signal B will turn to yellow (49 seconds after the train has started to leave the station) and signal A's aspect will turn from yellow to green.
If a train is at signal A at 49 seconds after its leader has started to leave Union Sq, then it will see a green aspect at signal A and a yellow aspect at signal B. This will permit the following train to enter the station. The time it takes the train to go from signal A to opening its doors is 30 seconds. The total elapsed time from when the leader left Union Sq is 79 seconds. This still leaves 41 seconds to keep the doors open and maintain 30 tph. Only 25 seconds are required for this, when they were running 24 tph in 2000. Assuming a linear relationship between necessary dwell time and headway, this would be reduced to 20 seconds for 30 tph, 16 seconds for 37 tph. There are 18 seconds available for dwell time with 37 tph.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve, I must've misunderstood your post few weeks ago, regarding trains entering Union Square on the s/b express track. Since then, I've operated several s/b 4 and 5 trains through the same area, and found things to be a little different than you described in your study.
You say that signal "A" is located just before the station! Signal "B" inside the station, and "C" just beyond.
There are actually four signals located in the area you studied. One is located just before you enter the station, 2 SIGNALS ARE IN THE STATION, and there is indeed one located just beyond the station. There numbers are 912, 942, 952, and 972 respectively. This is significant because it won't allow trains to enter the station the way you describe.
Signal 972 is signal A; signal 942 is signal B and signal 912 is signal C. Ignore signal 952 it is not important for controlling access to the platform. Signal 942 has only 2 aspects: red and yellow. The others have 3 aspects.
If signal B (942) is yellow then signal A (972) will be green. I do not want the following train to encounter any red or yellow signals except for signal B. The question of keying by a signal is always a red herring that is raised, when one mentions the greater service levels in the past. The scenerio I've proposed does not involve the follower ever encountering a red signal. The only yellow signals he will encounter are those that do not have a green aspect.
How long does it take for signal B (942) to turn from red to yellow? It takes an average of 49 seconds after a train starts moving.
How long does it take a train to go from signal A (972) when it is green until it opens its doors? It takes an average of 30 seconds.
So, every train stopping at Union Square takes up at least 79 seconds plus the amount of time that the doors remain open. Suppose trains are running at a service level of 36 tph or once every 100 seconds. This permits the doors to remain open for 21 seconds. (100 - 79 = 21). The dwell time rises to 41 seconds for 30 tph (120 - 79 = 41).
I hope that this clarifies things.
wOw!
First, segment A-B and then B-C are no longer occupied, as the train leaves the
station, The tripper associated with signal B goes up, when segment A-B is not occupied but
segment B-C is. The tripper associated with signal C goes up, when segment B-C is no longer
occupied. The aspect of signal A turns to yellow within 2 seconds of the tripper associated with
signal C goes up. This means that all the signals before signal A have will have a green aspect in a
couple of seconds. A bit later signal B will turn to yellow (49 seconds after the train has started to
leave the station) and signal A's aspect will turn from yellow to green.
I must have missed this original post. If the intent was to describe
actual signaling conditions in the NYCT system, it contains some
important errors. First, the stop arm of signal B will not come
up if track circuit B-C is still occupied, because of the "retaining
circuit". The behavior you describe is only true for home signals,
not automatics. With automatics, the arm for signal B won't come
up until section B-C is clear.
However, these semantics are modified by the presence of "cut-
sections", i.e. track circuit boundaries with no signals, which
cut down the retaining circuit. So, in fact, arm B may come up
when the rear of the train has gone half way through section B-C.
You also ignore the issue of control line lengths. Although the
double-overlap system usually produces an aspect sequence of
R - R - Y - G behind the train, in the case you cite, the distance
between signals A and C may have been deemed inadequate to allow
signal A to go to yellow as soon as the train clears signal C.
The solid control line of signal A may extend beyond signal C
by several hundred feet.
Regardless, I'm not sure how you think trains can consistently
achieve a 41 second dwell time at Union Sq s/b given the time
needed for the gap fillers to come out, the high volume of passengers
entering and exiting, and the delay leaving the station waiting
for the GF signal to clear.
You did miss the first part of the discussion that goes back to another thread from about a month ago.
The times of 49 and 30 seconds, along with standard deviations of 2 and 1 second respectively, refer to actual measurements made at Union Square on 27 Oct 2001. As such they reflect the differences control line length. Also, I was assuming that signal A would turn green shortly after signal B turned yellow - not after signal C turned yellow.
Regardless, I'm not sure how you think trains can consistently achieve a 41 second dwell time at Union Sq s/b given the time needed for the gap fillers to come out, the high volume of passengers entering and exiting, and the delay leaving the station waiting for the GF signal to clear.
I have defined the stopping time measurement of 30 seconds as follows: the time from when a train passes signal A (with a green aspect) until the doors open. I have defined the leaving time measurement of 49 seconds as: the time from when the train starts to move, with signal C having a green aspect, until signal B turns yellow. Any additional time due to the presence of gap fillers is contained in these measurements. The dwell time consists of that portion of the time the train is stationary in the station from when the doors are first opened until the train starts to move. It does not include the time required for the gap fillers to move out nor does it include the time for the gap fillers to retract.
This definition of dwell time corresponds to that presented in the TRB's "Rail Transit Capacity" section of its "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual". This manual further further divides dwell time into three distinct components: one of passenger movement; followed by one with the doors open and no passenger movement; and followd by one with the doors closed but no train movement.
The study also shows that passenger movement accounts for only 64% of dwell time for measurements taken at Grand Central on the NYCT. The same study also states that the mean dwell time for NYCT is around 30 seconds. So, Union Sq should not pose a bottleneck for 30+ tph operation. Indeed, if dwell time were better managed, so that the passenger movement component accounted for 80% of dwell time, then 34 tph would be possible. This result does not even take into account a proportional decrease in the passenger movement component due to an increased service level.
Again, this is quite an impressive effort, Stephen.
Are you a form of scientist or architect?
You really seem to have your corn dogs together.
Wow. Impressive research. :)
Oh yea!!!
I learned tonight the next best thing to railfanning from the apartment window is to watch the action from the local token booth. At 2345 hours, I hear the rumbling of a diesel. It's an R-142 Delivery!!! Up close and personal at 66th St... 6926-30 have arrived on the property. The transfer was followed by a northbound local waiting for the lineup to the express track at 72nd St. At midnight, I was greeted by VakTrak, the train that clears the trash from the rails. A work train or two went south during that time.
I tell you, you get to see interesting sights from within the booth. I love railfanning!!! And I love you folks too... Be on the lookout - I think I'll be in attendence for the 12/8 Redbird FanTrip. I've ordered tickets and mailed my payment today.
Until We Meet Again...
Stef
P.S. I promise to go to sleep now, I have way too much on my mind...
I'm sure you do, since railfanning from the token booth has to be one of those ideas resulting from your lack of sleep...
Which booth at 66th? Were you there this past Thursday around 6pm?
I wasn't there on Thursday. The booth I had was on the uptown platform.
-Stef
Is that a full or part time booth? I haven't worked up there in a while.
Part time booth that closes at 1AM. Interesting schedule. I start out on a Lunch Relief Schedule and then man the booth 'till closing.
-Stef
And a NLR escorts you back to the main booth before he signs in at Columbus Circle?
A PM L/R escorts me, and we go off duty at the same time.
-Stef
I just read both Barry and R68A-5200 posts about their run in with C/Rs. As a C/R, I feel a right to respond:
Barry: As a passenger, I would write a letter about the C/R behavior IF you catch an attitude with her. At the same time, that parent should have made sure that child was on the train. These parents are assholes when it comes to the subway. They make sure theyre on the train and can give a rats ass about their kid(s). Ive seen it myself. Its a damn shame what people would do to get on the train.
R68A: Grow up!!! Cmon now, plastic or not, kicking a bottle is wrong!!! Then you and your friends have the balls to laugh at the man while he venting for a very good reason. Then again you punks didnt have any balls if ran from him. If you was smart you would have put the damn bottle in the trash. Just chill out and be a railfan!!!
To Both: Do both of you know what these C/Rs and T/Os go through every workday? I guess not. People holding doors in your face and dont give a shit. People asking you the same question over and over again even though you gave them an answer. People having an attitude when your train go out of service due to a fellow sick passenger. As been said here many times, were are the front line employees. We got to take a lot shit in the face from the customers. Every day, day in and out. So when you guys write your complaint letters to TA, just stop and put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Im sure youll see otherwise........
Im going to bed.... now.
Pity I missed you with a response so we could elaborate ... I've been out of the system since 1971, but realities seemingly never change. I wish others here could go into more of the details about what it's like from the broom closet side of the train for folks who never get a chance to see life from our "two or more trips a day, the eagle shitteth biweekly, hoorah" side of reality. That's one of the GOOD THINGS Subtalk is here for when it ain't "Shrubtalk." :)
It seems a LOT of people on both sides have forgotten where NYCTA was 20-30 years ago and lack a degree of GRATITUDE for what passes for train and "customer" service THESE days. Folks just don't know how lucky they are, and are STILL crapping on the folks in the cab who are just trying to do their trip and have NO control over reality. Hell, the WIGS don't most of the time. One of the reasons why I waste so much time here on POLITICS is that folks don't understand how MUCH politics play int he daily operations and WHY things are as they are.
As a former UMD TWU 100, just wanted to let you know that SOME of us "get it." :)
You know before I left, they took a vote to rename the UMD? No more motormen, I think it is now the Train Operator's Division or something to that effect
Geez ... "TOD" sounds like something out of a Saturday Night Live skit. Ah well, still have my old crest. :)
Mike, your post should be saved for future reference....so that others might hear what you guys have to put up with...
Good post.
Nice talking with you last night. Wouldn't have happenned if there had not been a GO on the Flushing. ;)
Yannow, the longer that post about
"Today's (Literally) conduct of R68A-5200"
dwells on into detail and HTML discussion,
the quicker I am to notice that the fellow
is mentally as slow as his R68A namesake hippo...
Whoa! Do Not turn this into, me being in an incident to you sticking your ass into this with your smart comments.
This is a PUBLIC forum.. if you post something here,
it instantly becomes topic for PUBLIC discussion
which enables others to participate and contribute;
regardless if by means of praise, critique, or contrast.
50% chance you'll get praise.
50% chance you'll get critique.
Frankly, I gave critique.
50% chance the C/R had a bad incident before you.
50% chance you could have kicked the bottle the other way.
Had you NOT posted this incident, we wouldn't have critiqued.
Sorry for YOU and the C/R.
Yes, but lets keep my conduct and the C/R's conduct here in discussion. Not me personally nor any "health" conditions. Don't make things personal, this isn't a campaign.
You made it PERSONAL when you posted what YOU did.
Growup, don't kick things and learn to take comments about yourself when you ask form em by posting.
Thanks, Lou!! :)
Criticism: Acceptable.
Personal Attacks: Not needed.
Ill email you privately later on.........
I like your post very much.
Legitimate complaints about crew behavior should be documented and sent to the TA. But passengers have a responsibility too.
My request to all:
If you are ever on a train where a passenger falls ill, try to remember that it could just as easily have been you with the illness. Contact a member of the crew, and be patient and understanding about it. Help the crew if you are medically trained, and if the crew members did their jobs appropriaytely, thank them for helping someone in need, and let their supervision know that you appreciate the concern and caring you saw. Don't bitch and moan about being late - after all, it could be worse - the stricken passenger is headed for the hospital and definitely won't be arriving at his or her intended destination at all. You're the lucky one - appreciate it.
People Dont realize Complaining about Uselesss situations such as this Could cost someone their jobs ,or days with out pay.Should the guy have cursed NO,But I dont think his family should go hungry for 30 days because he did.We C/R's go through alot of headaches I was personally involved in a physical confrontation with 2 teenagers and Lost 60 days without pay till it was proven self defense.So 5200 GROW UP and take it on the chin like a man .
AND REMEMBER MOSTS C/R's Will be angry at some point during the day so dont piss them off more.
The 'pooblick' assumes we are public servants to be used and abused...we are Civil Servants of Record performing a service as 'Captains and Peace Officers.' We are there to operate and maintain trainsets safely and profitably...ANY interference with our duties is a violation of law. On railroads, the Conductor is the person in charge over the Engineer and Trainpersons. Conflict of authority has been a NYCTA problem...'door enablers' will eventually be added to all trainsets to force cooperation in the crew.
Some of my CI crew shirks...hides...unwilling to identify themselves
as TA employees while commuting. When I travel subways, I always wear my ID....I am not there to provide directions but in an emergency, there to provide assistance even if I do not get paid on my day off!!! Get that union and management, there are many of us that are responsible employees...many of us on this board...so settle your differences swiftly!!!!!!! CI Peter
Hello to all, I've been away for awhile and now that I'm back and checking out this site again, what brought on the reconstruction of the Coney Island Station and why is the N line terminated at 86th Street and is that permanant?!
The Stillwell Avenue terminal was falling apart and is being rebuilt/replaced a piece at a time. The truncation of Sea Beach ("N") service at 86th Street is related to the project -- the Sea Beach platform and tracks were among the very first facilities to be torn down and replaced. The truncation is not intended to be permanent.
David
Yeah, what he said.
As an aside, I found myself in New York City yesterday and spent most of my time (probably too much time, actually) riding the subways. I ended up out at Coney Island late in the evening on the offhand chance that the amusement parks would be open given the beautiful weather, but it looked like everything was shut down for the season. Since it was dark out, I really couldn't see to what extent the Stillwell terminal had been demolished, but the entire front concourse to Surf Avenue is now totally gone. The entrance to the station is now around the side, off Stillwell Avenue itself. Despite having a nice dinner at Nathan's, the trip out there was a bit of a disappointment, mostly because it was two hours that I could have spent doing something far more interesting.
However, I was treated to a nice express run on the Sea Beach line as my (W) train for the return trip was diverted to the Sea Beach route for some reason, and we ran down the center express track the entire way until we re-joined the normal (W) route and ran local. What made it even more cool was that I had the entire car (an R68) to myself during this express run. We got up to a decent speed (by NYCTA standards, anyway) a couple times, but also crawled along at a snail's pace in a few spots. The fastest express runs I rode on yesterday were actually on a train of R68's on the (Q) through Manhattan, and on some R62's on the (2) from Times Square to 96th Street. Sea Beach Fred will be pleased to know that my inpromptu Sea Beach Express train continued its journey into Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge.
Aside from that, my trip was mostly uneventful, as I didn't even get into the city until around 3:00 PM or so and didn't have that much time to kill. I took the NJT Turnpike almost to the Holland Tunnel where I took a left and parked at the Pavonia/Newport PATH station and took PATH into the city. (NJ Transit from Hamilton is nice, but I hate being dependent upon a commuter rail timetable.) Upon my return later that night, I had this incredible urge to drive across the Verazzano Narrows Bridge, so I took the Holland Tunnel into Manhattan, twisted my way through the streets of Lower Manhattan over to the Brooklyn Bridge, and drove across the Brooklyn Bridge and onto the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway while following the signs to Staten Island. Driving across the Verazzano Narrows Bridge, my first thoughts were: HOLY FUCKING SHIT, THIS IS A HUGE FUCKING BRIDGE!!! I drive across the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philly almost every day, which is no small bridge in itself, but the Verazzano Narrows Bridge is incredible. Say what you want about Robert Moses, but he was an impressive builder. I returned to Philly by driving across Staten Island and the Goethalls Bridge (what an incredibly narrow and claustrophobic span that is) and back to the NJ Turnpike.
So far I've driven in all of NYC's five boroughs except for Queens, and at one time or another I've driven across the George Washington Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge, Verazzano Narrows Bridge, Goethalls Bridge, and through the Holland Tunnel. My goal is to eventually drive across every major bridge and through every major tunnel in NYC. Why? Well, why not?
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
"Say what you want about Robert Moses, but he was an impressive builder."
Robert Moses was supremely gifted - it's just that he was an anti-transit aristocratic snob.
By the way, Moses never drove a car in his life.
according to the Ric Burns documentary, He took some driving lessons in 1922, never say never!
(I drive across the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philly almost every day, which is no small bridge in itself, but the Verazzano Narrows Bridge is incredible.)
Wait a minute. Aren't you the same guy who lived in Boston, and was from and returned to Chicago. Now you are in Philly? You seem to be touring every traditional older major city in the U.S.
When are you going to graduate to the REAL major leagues (you know where)?
...asks the Brooklyn resident.
What do you think he was talking about? That smaller and less-populated city on the west side of the East River?
The Verrazano Bridge's main span is 4,260 feet long - 60 feet longer than that of the Golden Gate Bridge. The towers are 1 5/8" further apart at their tops than at their bases.
It truly is a big bridge. And not cheap, either. It was a $324 million project in early 1960s dollars.
...on some R62's on the (2) from Times Square to 96th Street.
That would be something, R-62's on the (2). I guess you meant the (3)
There are occasional R-62A appearances on the 2 nowadays. Apparently they're preferred over R-33 appearances.
(R-62 appearances, at least for the time being, are as rare on the 3 as on the 2.)
I saw alot of talk earlier about the love for the R32 Subway Car and I happen to love them too. About the only thing I don't like about their present condition is the upper paneling on the car end. Back in the day they had the upper marker lights, a double window rollsign and the local and express lights too. Now all that's left is this cyclops looking digital sign, I wonder why that was done in the first place?!
Although I do not find the R32 to be ugly, even now, they did make them much uglier when they rebuilt them and put that stuipid digital sign on the front, which is very hard to read from a distance. They were much more attractive before the rebuild.
Actually, I liked them best in the time period when they had the blue doors, between when the graffiti was removed and when they were rebuilt. (Of course they probably looked that good when they were new also, but I hadn't seen them new.
The cyclops signs had to do with the new A/C compressor motors that were put in place during rebuilding. Truly if the rebuilding took place back then, a single rollsign could of still been placed there for visibility purposes.
And how would it have been rolled?
The rollsigns would have fit, but the a/c units would have blocked access to them.
You could just have the crank (or hex key slot) on the top of the doorway like in some of the older cars.
Not the compressor motor...the #1 end evaporator/blower. But it's true that the location of the equipment wasn't compatible with the location of the roll signs, so they were replaced by flip-dot route signs that could be controlled from the #1 cab.
David
Couldn't they just given the MK rebuilt R32s the same treatment as the 10 GE rebuilt R32s?
The 10 GE-rebuilt R-32s have the same sign arrangement as the MK-rebuilt R-32s. The only difference is cosmetic, in that one can see where the marker lights used to be on the GE cars -- MK could have done it that way, of course, but for whatever reason chose not to do it that way, and, really, outside of railfans, who cares? It doesn't affect the operation of the car or the service provided to customers one iota.
David
When they retire the R-32s, they should preserve at least one married pair of R-32s and then restore them to their original appearance.
#3 West End Jeff
Amen. But let's hope that retirement will occur only in the very, very distant future.
At the rate things are going, I wouldn't be surprised to see the R-32s in service perhaps into the year 2010.
#3 West End Jeff
Train Dude posted a message that, to my recollection, had them scheduled to go to 2011. If the post-election budget restrictions discussed elsewhere on this board come into effect, there is the possibility that the option order of R160s will be decreased or eliminated. This may well allow the R32s to continue well beyond....
If the R-32 fans are lucky, those cars might be running up to their 50th birthday.
#3 West End Jeff
I'd say the odds are even right now that the R-32s will last 50 years.
If they really wanted to go for it, the R-32s could last 60 years.
#3 West End Jeff
In any event, it looks like they will be the longest lived of the R series.
We'll see.
The longest lived cars of the post World War II R series cars so far have been the R-26s. Some of the soldiered on for more than 42 years.
#3 West End Jeff
That would be great news indeed, and it also would bode well for the other cars from the same era (the R38, Slants, R40M, R42). The R32s are in fine shape, we had two Monday - one on the "E" and one on the "A", both trains performed beautifully in their express runs.
wayne
Nope. Someone forgot to order all stainless steel constuction on the 38 through 42 Rs. Much as I love the slants, they're still fust buckets.
Nope. Someone forgot to order all stainless steel constuction on the 38 through 42 Rs. Much as I love the slants, they're still rust buckets.
And of course "#3 West End Jeff" will be happy to pay for it.
David
Some interesting points were made in the recent thread.
RE: The a/c blocking access to the rollsign cranks, had they chose to retain rollsigns, they could have had the cranks accessible from the bulkhead/anticlimber plates (outside the storm door), I believe the R-11's were set up this way.
Montreal uses cardboard signs clipped above the motorman's head, and inside the windshield, just in the way of comparative methodologies.
As an aside, I believe that 10 R-38's were equipped with experimental A/C that blocked access to the signs. Does anyone have any info on how these cars were assigned? My recollection is that, between markers and side signs, everyone just lived with an occasional incorrect route sign when one of these ten cars was a lead motor.
The AC unit is located at both ends of the car. It blocks access to get to the roll sign and marker lights. It was hard to change the roll sign on the prototype R38 with AC.
If you believe this then I wonder why the redbirds kept theit roll signs and marker light when they were refitted with AC.
Phil Hom
The SMEE era - golden oldies.
Because the Redbird a/c unit is in the middle of the car, not at the ends.
the Redbird a/c unit is in the middle of the car, not at the ends.
...and are clearly inferior to the A/C units on the R32 and R38. I don't like those semi-legible dot matrix signs either, but it was worth the loss of the front and rear rollsigns if it meant getting a comfortable car. The front and rear rollsigns are IMHO far less important than the side signs, the ones you can see when the train is in the station, and the ones that were ruined on the post-GOH R44 and R46.
:-) Andrew
Does anyone know why the side signs were replaced on the R-44/6 during GOH? The digital ones suck, and the pics I've seen with the bullet in the middle seem cool.
AFAIK there was an additional trainline circuit available, so they took advantage of it. I like those signs.
Poof ... those old rollsigns on the 44's and 46's were *VERY* useful and well designed. You're only whining because you didn't have the poiuyt key that rolled them, so you couldn't screw aroudn with them. Man oh man, after Branford, I finally *realize* why we got those stupid things to keep people like *you* from screwing up our train. :)
Sparky? Dougie? Anybody who was at Branford when We were? How come the only pix of the rollsigns being diddled with do not show the ACTUAL perpetrator(s)? Heh.
Selkirk...was that key really called a poiuyt, or were you just a Mad Magazine reader in the 60s? :-)
It was a FUNKY key ... just like I've tried to be "politically correct" by referring to the "butt plug" instead of "dick," the "poiuyt key" is truly a Don Martin invention with Rube Goldberg burning in effigy ... TA called it a "sign key" but there were so many on the old chain (vapor key, paycheck key, crew keys, etc) that I figured I'd have a wee bit of fun. It was a FUNKY zigzag key that you used though some of the platform conductors cheated with a DRILL and a bit ...
What me worry? I already *PAID* my taxes ... now I gotta worry about NEXT YEAR'S surprise with "faith based education" pushing my school and property taxes passing my TOTAL INCOME ... so just fold the back cover in, gotta be better than the reality ... Paturkey lied ... so what ELSE is new? :(
I used to love to look at all the different routes on the M train rollsigns when the R27's used to run there when I was a teenager. (of course they would never wind up being the M train when I was done).
You! IN the conductor's room, NOW! Now GENUFLECT to the TA godess ... you'll LIKE this. :)
I've always loved "rolling rollsigns". I'd try to remember every destination that "rolled by".
Chuck Greene
I was so pissed after Christie Street took away the T and QT that I changed every "RR" sign I could to either "T" or "QT", so that it would read Astoria / Coney Island / T or QT.
It was my way as a 10 year old of fighting the TA ....
Long live the W ;-)
So what's wrong with changing signs? By the time I was done taking pictures that day, 1689's sign boxes were set for a GG. I didn't do that.
The only time I ever messed with a roll sign on a train in revenue service was on a BMT standard. We were waiting for our train to leave 8th Ave. and I noticed one route sign not being set to "14th St. L'c'l". So I took hold of the crank handle and started cranking away. My mother almost had a stroke wondering what would happen if anyone saw me and begged me to stop. Anyway, when the generic "Local" sign came into view (it was in the middle of the roll), I quit cranking.
I got my pics of one of 1689's sign boxes set for an A train and the other set for a D train, with first one sign lit and then the other. Now all I have to do is get that cotton-pickin' roll developed.:) It was still strange to see an R-9 with A signs. That's what happens when most of one's A rides were on R-10s.
>>>"So what's wrong with changing signs? By the time I was done taking pictures that day, 1689's sign boxes were set for a GG. I didn't do that."<<<
This time, I plead innocent, I did not change the signs on 1689
on 13 October, 2002. Other times, I take the 5th. Even thought,
I like to set her up as a 'D' to Kings Highway for Big Lou's
home station.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
How long have you lived in the NYC area?
Just curious, you remind me of someone local that just
transferred up there..
Mark
Mark,
I'm a lifelong resident of "Greenpoint Brooklyn US of A",
the Garden Spot of the World or "Krakow on the East River".
Six decades to be excact, we were out of Greenpoint for
three years in the late sixties.
Also have roots for the past twenty plus years in Ulster County,
New York as a seasonal resident.
;-) Sparky
Nah, we've got your alibi - it was Nancy and I that rolled them around. After all, it was YOUR birthday, guy and as much as I loved my D train, we had to give honors where honors were due. Besides, after busting Steve's chops all day about sign twirling, doesn't it figure WE would be the ones snagged with photographic evidence? Moo! :)
Then how do you explain one sign box being set for a GG going all the way to 179th St?
A GO perhaps? Coulda sworn we'd set them both for "Forest Hills" but then that sucker was moving most of the day. :)
Kevin, Steve
I received a set of photos from Larry Redbird R-33 yesterday,
guess what, in living color, 1689 was set for "GG" Queens~Forest
Hills" [top] and "Brooklyn~Church Avenue" [bottom]. Soebody's
wishful thinking. >G<
;-) Sparky
Heh. That was Bingbong and I that did that one. For you. :)
Kevin for you Thanks and for BingBong XOXOX.
:-) Sparky
It's too bad you don't have a set of Eastern Division signs for 1689, that you could fit in place of the current IND rolls she now wears.
Nothing permanent, mind you, but if the oilcloths would withstand a change, might be nice to see it signed up as "M". AND change out the wicker for a set of grey fiberglas benches. Just dreaming of the first time I saw that car, it was on the "M" of course, the Shuttle, December 27, 1969, in the snow. Mom was taking Dad's place on one of my subway rides (Dad was sick); this was the trip we rode PATH for the first time. The diversion up and down the "M" shuttle was on the way into town. Six inches of wet snow on the ground. Nobody was on the train and I amused myself by turning it into an "MM".
wayne
The route-bullet-in-the-middle look was on the R40, R42 and R44 when they were first delivered. But by the time the R46 came about the TA had decided on the now-familiar configuration with the route bullet on the side. In time the earlier rollsigns were changed to that, at least after 1979 when the route colors were also changed (or certainly after 1985 when the double letters were eliminated.)
One thing that did not change until GOH: All the rollsigns on the R40 through R46 were single curtains, containing all the route information on a single page. They could all be changed from the cab. But the single page format meant there were limitations on the route variations that could be displayed. With the GOH, the R40 and R42 were given the three part rollsigns like on the R62, R62A, R68, and R68A. For whatever reason, the R44 and R46 got those old calculator LCD displays.
(Yuck!)
:-) Andrew
The R-40 and R-42 rollsigns could be changed from the cab? I thought that was only an R-44/46 feature (that never worked quite right).
I met a railfan on Sunday who told me that, between the single side curtains and the huge letters up front, the R-40's originally had signage only for the E and F.
Unless I am mistaken, I think the R44's were the first trains to have the "remote" operation of the rollsigns (which like mentioned never really worked right). I don't think the R40-42's had remote operated ones. I could be wrong though.
Yeah, those single side curtain signs led to some strange settings. The upper B/D from 86-88 were never signed properly. The D's always said "205th St-Brighton Beach" and the B said "168th St-Bay Parkway" even though both lines terminated at 34th St.
The R44/46 cars were wired for remote controlled rollsigns, and they made naturally made for conversion to electronic signage.
And a powerful AC unit it is! Few sensations are nicer than waiting on a steamy hot platform in summer, and then stepping onto an icy cold R32.
the R32 look cool the way they are now.
til next time
Inside they look GREAT, especially the Phase I's with the Black Floors. The bulkhead sign, far too hard to read, is an unfortunate by-product of the A/C retrofit.
wayne
Inside they look GREAT, especially the Phase I's with the Black Floors.
I agree with that! I love the interior of the R32's. I think the interiors look better now, but the exteriors looked better before the rebuilding. In addition to the rollsigns on the front, which is the biggest change that I dislike on them, I liked the blue doors. It gave them a little more color.
I find the R-32 interior quite spartan. It's not very friendly for short passengers, either -- there aren't many vertical poles and the horizontal handholds are high.
I find the R-38 (and R-32GE) interior much better, both aesthetically and functionally. (The exterior is also a bit more exciting.)
It's not very friendly for short passengers, either -- there aren't many vertical poles and the horizontal handholds are high.
Although I do like them, they actually are not very freiendly for tall passengers either. A friend of mine, a bit taller than me, hit's his head if standing at the end of those cars, and can't even stand in the doorways there if he wanted too! (although now I can't remember if that was on the R32's or the R38's, I havn't been in one of those cars with him lately). One of those classes of cars doesn't even have horizontal handholds in some of the doorways either, although that may stop people from standing in the doorway, and not moving when the doors open on the station side.
I like the R32 & R38 because of their ability to pick up speed quickly, and I like when I ride the R32/38 on the A Line Express between Euclid Ave. & Bway ENY because of the speed.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
To put A/C in the cars.
Blue doors, metal straps, tile floor and royal blue interior paint with the full route/destination sign in the front and side route sign that you do not need a key to change. That is the R32 that I fondly remember. NO BING BONG!
I do miss the original look of the R-32 (and R-38) too. ...especially with their all blue interiors, but I'd rather have them as they are now with the nice A/C.
Wayne
Check out this page on the Blue Print & Specs of the LIRR M-7 and other Commuter Cars that are being built by Bombardier.
http://www.sonic.net/~mly/Caltrain-Electrification/2000-08-Rolling-Stock-Draft/a6.pdf
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Thanks. I had ben wondering if the Montreal cars were similar to the M-7. Now I see that they aren't that similar.
--Brian
Brian, do you have missing pixs? I wanted to look at your R143 shots and was 404ed.
Usually on Veteran's Day the subway system runs a normal weekday schedule, but I just heard on the radio that "all mass transit systems will be running on a Sunday schedule tomorrow". Is their a change, or was this report false?
TIA
All the Current Schedules have the service box and those say it's a normal Monday Schedule. But Memorial Day is Sunday for some reason.
The financial markets are closed on Memorial Day. Only the bond market is closed tomorrow. That's why I came here to clear things up.
It's a regular schedule I believe. As far as mail goes, I dont think they have delivery.
From the NY Post
WHAT'S CLOSED ON VETS DAY
Sun Nov 10, 3:43 AM ET
Tomorrow is Veterans Day, a federal, state and local holiday in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.
Post offices are closed and there is no regular mail delivery. Express Mail and special delivery are unaffected. Banks in New York and Connecticut are closed. Banks in New Jersey have the option to close.
City subways and buses, the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North trains are on a weekend schedule.
Alternate side-of-the-street parking rules are suspended in the city. There will be no garbage collection and recycling pickup in New York City.
Public schools are closed in New York City, New York state and Connecticut.
That can't be right. Veteran's day for the subway system has always been a normal weekday schedule.
Someone help! I have railfanning plans tomorrow!
LIRR is on regular Weekday Schedule....the paper schedule doesn't have Veterans listed on the holiday list and also someone who's involved in the RR told me that it is weekday.
Isn't Memorial Day the same?
No. Veteran's day honors those who served in the military. Memorial Day honors those who were killed in the line of duty.
That not's what I meant! I wanted to know if Memorial had the same schedule, silly! :-)
I know. LOL
And the real answer is: no. The financial markets are closed on Memorial Day and the system runs on a holiday schedule.
Memorial day is a Sunday schedule. The reason is simple: most New Yorkers work on Veterans Day and are off on Memorial Day.
The Post gets it wrong again. All subway service is on a regular, daily Monday to Friday schedule.
Stations and RTO is running a normal weekday service tomorrow as is NJT and PATH. That means any part-time booth open weekdays will be open as will any exits open weekdays.
The part about the booths is not true. On Monday, I tried entering the system at two entrances that are normally open weekdays - one at 43rd St and Broadway, the other at 7th Ave & 42nd St, and both were closed, even though the sign said the booth was open "weekdays from xxx.".
--Mark
AHH...another one of those lovely TA vagueries.
Doncha love 'em
Peace,
ANDEE
I can hear the Brighton Line from my windown (loud when it rains) and right now 10:52am I can tell you that I'm off (hence the bedroom reference) and that the number of trains I'm hearing it is a weekday schedule. >G<
Well Kings Hwy's two part time entrances that are closed on weekends were closed today all day including both rush hours.
Guess some SA's didn't show up.
Crowding to say the least, was pretty heavy on the platforms during rush with only two stair cases open on each side.
At Fulton St. J/M/Z station (Broad St. bound), the exit by the 8 car marker was closed for the holiday. Train service were on a regular weeekday schedule but I suspect that station dept. was either on a Saturday or Sunday schedule.
Oops. Was Broad Street open at all, then?
Yes, Broad St. was open. I suppose station dept. covered the job with extra list personel, or the regular agents had to work in accordance with a footnote on their pick sheets when he/she picked the job.
Sorry for the closures. USually they put out a bulletin for holidays but I did not see one so I assumed Statiosn would run Weekday. I did not find out unitl my lunch relief came and told me that stations was on a Sunday schedule. Those "lesser holidays" are always a problem tryign tog uess what NYCT or other syatems will do.
The S/As in closed areas worked extra unless they picked Satureday, Sunday, Holiday (SSH) or SUnday, Monday, Holday (SMH) in which case they'd be off.
The subways ran normal, but the Staten Island Ferry ran on a WEEKEND schedule - departures from SI every hour from 1:00am to 11:00am for the morning rush. (this according to an article in today's (Tuesday) SI Advance).
Beside NYC and Philly, does any other North American Cities have a commuter rail system that runs during non peak hours or rush hours at LEAST 1 train per hour on each line, and weekends and holidays. in both directions
I know for a fact that Metra in chicago runs weekends, off peak, holidays, and so on. Aside from the fact that they are diesel electric (and don't expect to see electrification for a good long while), they run a tight ship. All of their track is shared with freights, yet when I was there my line, the CNW (never UP) Northwest Line was almost never delayed due to Freight trains. Never mind that metra had the freights outnumbered 10 to 1, even if something happened, metra seemed determined to keep the trains moving.
One time a drunk stumbled onto the tracks in front of an aproaching CNW freight, the freight slammed on the brakes, and it's train separated. It took CNW about 2 hours to get their train put back together and get out town, during which time Metra just ran around them like it was single tracked (actually double tracked, but the freight obviously was on the one track), I don't think delays ever got worse than 5 minutes that time.
In what has to be one of Metra's worst accidents to date, on October 25, 1995, a school bus headed to the local high school was hit by a Chicago-bound express train traveling at around 75 mph while stopped at a stoplight. Only the busses very rearmost section was hit, but that was enough. The entire body, filled with kids was wrenched from the chassis and planted on the grass between the railroad tracks and the highway that the bus was waiting to turn onto, seven kids were killed, I knew one, Jeffery Clark, through Boy Scouts, however, he was much older than me.
But even then, again single tracked, but this time with media, rescue, and the Fox River Grove residents, for whom this was a big deal, Metra kept it's trains running, they'd start blowing the horn and flashing the ditch lights when the crested a small hill about 2 miles outside town, and crawled through town, right past the train that had hit the bus, still sitting on the south-bound track, Metra workers crawling over the cab car looking for damage, over Algonquin road where the accident had happened, past the media vans with their Microwave antennae, and into FRG station.
Metra caught a lot of flak from the locals, who thought that metra should stop running all together while they mourned their loss, and afterward they sued for damages from everybody, Metra, CNW, the School District, the Village of Fox River Grove, the makers of the Crossing Gates, there was even talk of somebody sueing the Bus driver, a substitute, who was just about broke, and basically on suicide watch.
Last time I was back there I noticed little change in the speed, which I see as good, the FRG police are now nuts about ticketing people waiting for lights on the wrong side of the tracks, and there is talk of an over or underpass for one of the three crossings in town. Don't expect the NW line to be electrified for a long time, after 2040 at the least, more likely never, and even then, if anyone were to seriously suggest it, somebody (and people in that town NEVER leave, 90% of the residents grew up there, less now because of 2 large housing developments, but still there will be residents there for the next 40 years who were there then) will pull out a scrapbook detailing the life of one of the seven kids, and the idea will be shot down. Maybe electrified to Barrington, they don't like the Diesels running through their downtown with all their noise, smell, and so on. But I'd say electrification has a snowballs chance in hell north of there, even though Crystal Lake, Harvard and Mc Henry might like it.
Oh well, sorry to get all carried away on the accident, I suppose I might add that my old house at 409 1/2 Concord ave was about 1/4 mile from the Algonquin Rd crossing where the accident happened, and that's by the roundabout roads, as the crow flies, it was like 100 yards (look it up on mapquest). I could watch the trains through the houses and trees across the street by standing in a specific spot in my living room, thus I heard the accident that morning, My sister and I were in the living room, heard it and then went on with getting ready for school. My mother was dropping my father at the train and both were about 50 or so yards from the accident.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9510/bus_crash/10-26/
http://www.emergency.com/fxrvrgv.htm
Hope I wasn't too longwinded, thanks for letting me vent that.
The Next Big Thing is an hour radio show that airs on WNYC on Sundays at 11 AM on 93.9 FM and at 1 PM
on 820 AM.
I just heard a segment on this week's show that is really funny. The host of the program laments the introduction of automated annoucements on the subway. Interestingly, he plays about 1 minute of Harry Nugent, who was the very informative and whimsical conductor on the # 1 line.
This is a wonderful contrast to the current female and male voices now heard on the new equipment. The piece starts with the regular two voices, but something begins to go wrong. If you've seen the movie Airplane, you'll recall how the two voices, who were advising motorists not to park in front of the terminal, also went amuck.
Anyway, the show will be rebroadcast at 1 PM today, and this particular segment which is about 3 minutes long will air between 1:10 to 1:15 PM. If you're near a tape recorder, you'll probably want to make a copy of it.
In case you're not in the reception area of WNYC, they archive the programs and will probably have today's show later in the day. Here is a link to the program website:
The Next Big Thing
Could I get a copy of that tape from the 'heypaul archives'?
The Swammi, doing his normal NFL pre-game bit, delivered a joke which would only make sense to us NYC railfans by stating the Chicago Bears running back Anthony Thomas (known as the "A" train) "has been running like the Z train of late with only a 3 yard per carry average".
I do wonder if he truly understood how funny that comment was considering the long, slow, tortured ride the Z or J train can be. LOL.
I don't think Chris Berman has any knowledge of the real Z train. Just another A-to-Z joke.
Chaohwa
And also especially with the infrequency (hours of operation not TPH) of the Z, banished only to a very short time at rush hours.
Alright guys, hope you are not sick of these yet, but this one had me scratching my head a bit. These photos seem to be on the Brighton Line, but it seems that many of the tracks are completely out of service. The trains are going in and out of the express tracks, but there aren't even switches present. What in the world are they doing? It's obvious that they are working on the line. Was there ever a time that only two tracks were in service, or is this just the way they did track replacement on the line? The local track on the far right of the bottom photo doesn't look like it had seen trains in quite a while, not to mention that it isn't even connected - and it seems like that R32 is coming off of the "local track" alignment and onto the "express track, but there does't seem to be even a switch present. The same goes for the local track on the left side. Then the "express" tracks seem to be abandoned beyond where the two local tracks come together and take over the express tracks in the front of the photo. The active tracks seem to switch roles (express and local alignments) at the location of this photo. Strange. I estimate the photo to be from about the early 60's, but am not sure. So what is happening here?
I'm not sure of the exact location, but it seems that the photos are taken from opposite directions - I think the top photo was taken from the bridge in the backround in the bottom photo, and the opposite for the bottom photo.
This one is easy. These pics date to 1964-6, when the stations along the brighton line were being extended to accomodate the post-Chrystie St. trains of 600' lengths. The local tracks were temporarily out of service while Newkirk Ave. was extended southward. I'm not sure, but I think the local stations had platform extenders so all trains could stop at them while using the express tracks. Very similar to the 1994-5 configuration south of Ave. H while the embankment overpasses were being replaced underneath the tracks.
Great pics, especially of what appears to be a fairly new R32 in the lower one.
Thanks Chris, I couldn't understand what in the world was going on in those photos or why they would be weaving in and out of the local/express tracks, and the out of use tracks seemed to be rusting away. Amamzing that they couldn't just do the work by adding switches without completely severing the other tracks.
As for the class of cars in the photos, I know the bottom photo - a fairly new R32. But the top one, I am not as sure. I think the one on the left might be an R27 or R30? Not sure of the one on the right.
Top shot appears to be D-Types on the right and a consist of R-27/30s passing it on the left.
The good old days on the Brighton Line!
Q, QT, QB and M during rush hour.
Only bad part, express tracks were only used during rush hour.
Up to 1959, you had express service Monday-Saturday at almost exactly the same hours as now for Monday-Friday, plus Franklin Expresses on Sunday during the summer.
They cut-cut-cut until, as you say, it was M-F rush hours only. The express did run, but local south of Prospect Park.
About time they restored weekend express service. If they can do it on Fulton Street, they can do it for Brighton.
The extending of the stations was 1964, which must be when the photographs were taken. The rush-hour (actually until 9:00 A.M. in the morning, from 3 P.M. in the afternoon) only express service was until November, 1967. When the D became the Brighton train, mid-day express service was restored.
Must've been an awful downgrade in Brighton local service after 11/67, from 2 midtown-bound Broadway services to one fairly useless Nassau St. train.
Was the midday Q signed as a QB, or was it left as Q?
The midday Brighton Expresses were signed the same whether they were on the local or express track in Brooklyn, Q or 1.
I once read that initially after 11/67, the D express service was only to be a Brighton EXP for the rush hour only, local other times. The QJ was only supposed to run via tunnel and Brighton during rush hours as well, and there was to be NO QB service at all. Community opposition stopped all that!!! TOny
Supposedly people complained about losing Brighton local service to midtown Manhattan, and the QB was retained as a rush-hour peak direction service.
Makes one wonder what the TA brass were smoking when the Chrystie St. changes were being worked out.
The QB was a late-night and weekend service prior to Chrystie St. It had the Brighton line all to itself and made all local stops from Astoria to Coney Island.
I know, but since the midday Q ran the same way, I was wondering if they altered the signage to show that.
The midday Q ran express in Manhattan (as opposed to the short-lived Saturday Q 1961-62 which ran express in Brooklyn and local in Manhattan, Coney Island to Astoria).
-- Ed Sachs
The mid-day service was signed up as Q. Side signs were Q/Broadway Exp.
Check out the photo of an R-32 Q train bound for Brighton Beach on the local track on the Brighton line in Under the Sidewalks of New York.
Let it be known that my last ride on a Type D triplex was around 9:30 AM. One Q-Express on the middle track Manhattan Bound at Sheepshead Bay came in late and I got to take my last ride on one at the age of six and I remember it as if it was today.
We were surprised to see an express come so late in the morning, but it was a very pleasant surprise. We expected to take an R27 model to NY on the QB line. That was mother and me on that day in 1965.
What month in 1965? I started riding in Sept. that year. By then, it was all Brightliners on the express (Q and M), R27/30s on the local (QT), all R34s on the Franklin (7).
The Triplexes rode off into the sunset on July 23 - the same day we left the city for home while on vacation. I'm surprised they were still being used on the Brighton in 1965, since most of the ones still in service were running on the West End.
I do not remember, I was too young. Maybe it was summer or during spring vacation, because I was not in school.
They did that to the tracks during the 1994-1995 period where they rebuilt parts of the platforms at the local stations. South of Avenue H, they put "permanent switches" that connected the local tracks to the express tracks.
And the pedestrian bridge in the backround. I spent many hours watching rush hour afternoon trains go under me and by me when I went down to the street (Glenwood Ave. I think).
I went there when I visited my grandparents after they moved to Ave. J in 1970.
There was no express track service for six months. Express trains skipped the local stations up to Kings Highway on the local track.
I don't remember any extenders to the express track.
The details.
that is most likely the brighton line entering franklin. it looks like there is a lot of construction happening.
One other thing: Is that a Triplex or Standard in the upper photo adjacent to the obvious R27/30? I thought both types were gone from the Brighton line by the mid-60's.
Since Triplex cars used numbers I wonder when the D types were taken off the Brighton and new cars with letters substituted in its place. I finally got that right with the Sea Beach starting in 1963 when the Triplexes were taken off but my line still carried numbers on a couple of different cars until around 1967. What about the Brighton? That is a mystery to me.
After the Triplexes were gone, R16s still carried numbers where they were used, mostly on the 15-Jamaica, but sometimes on 10-Myrtle, 14-Broadway/Brooklyn and 16-Canarsie. I think this may have been right up to Chrystie.
The R11's had numbers until they were retired. When used on the Franklin shuttle, they were always set to #7.
That I knew too. I had a picture that I used as my desktop showing an R-11 at King Highway on January 24, 1970. Until I retired as a teacher that picture was staring at me every morning. It was my Linda's 22nd birthday and the year we got married. The fact it carried a #4, my handle, made the whole thing a winner.
And I remember them well. The first few times I saw them (Sept. 1965) I thought the small round door portals to be funny, but cute. They had the outside of the doors painted dark blue, too. They were the exclusive service providers of the Franklin Av. line back in those days.
Yup the ol' R-11's on the Frankie...remember them well. Teamed up with the R-32 sets on occassion (toward the end of their run).
After the "34" mods when they became quite compatible ...
Why were they scrapped before reaching 30 years of age?
I guess like the D types and many other working members of the fleet, they were "weird orphans", "non-standard" or perhaps even more likely, "parts shortage" ... but the 11's became R34's and there were just ten of them. But I don't have a good answer for it. They were strange cars though.
The R-11s fall into the same category as the R-110As and R-110Bs. Experimental cars with special parts which were hard to come by, if not impossible.
From what I've heard, the Triplexes were categorized as nonstandard rolling stock once the 60-foot car became the norm, and it became TA policy to get rid of all nonstandard equipment regardless of condition. It's still a travesty IMHO - slaughtering a fleet of cars when they were still running beautifully.
If you'll notice, both the Triplex and the R-11 ran on, guess what, which line? Ahhhmmmmmm. See something there? The TA struck stupidly again. Getting rid of cars that still worked and were a sight to behold. Not to beat a dead horse but to ride a Triplex was a thrill in itself. What a magnificent machine. You had to ride it down 4th Avenue in Brooklyn as an express to get the full thrill of what that train was like. It is an experience I will never forget.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the R-11s spent more time on Bob's favorite line than on yours. At least they did when they were new, anyway. They made a token appearance on the West End in October of 1968, then surfaced on the Sea Beach in January of 1970, although that may have been a mixed consist in that photo you're familiar with. Most people associate the R-11s with Doug's favorite line, the Franklin Ave. shuttle. Because they were experimentals, TA engineers milked as much as they could out of them until they outlived their usefulness.
I don't mind anyone trying to burst my bubble, just those trying to bust my chops. Your point is received. I knew the R-11's were only on the Sea Beach a short time but didn't know how long they were on other trains. Thanks for the info. And, if I can throw a political plug in (ok BMT Doug, just a little one), good job in keeping Allard in the Senate. Now tell Stickland to either change parties or get lost. And what house race is still disputed in your state?
It's the one in the newest congressional district.
I can almost see the Triplexes going to the slaughterhaus, much like the R9's ... AGE and that "worn out look" ... as well as they might have been maintained (or not) they exuded "old" ... the R11/34's on the other hand were a bit more "modern" and yet, they got it too. But I do agree that the oddballs would have been a pain, especially since there had to be qualified car inspectors trained in their oddities. The fewer car types you have to maintain, the better the quality of experience that can be brought to bear on weird "troubles" ...
Yeh, but what about that "F" train at Bergen?
IMO, that looks like a fan trip at lower Bergen Street, while
it was still tiled. Note the lack of advertising on the walls.
Also, if my eyes do not deceive me, the person in the cab,
looks like, the "Branford Trademeister". Trying to locate
the tread again. HELP!!!
When Steve Zabel ran the R-10 trip for the ERA in June of '86,
he brought along a numbered route indicator for BMT on the
motorend in use at the time. The number/letter curtain on the
ends of all R series thru 38 were interchangable prior to GO.
;-) Sparky
They all used the same mechanisms. Even the R-1/9 side sign boxes were made by the Hunter Illuminated Car Sign Company.
Upon further review, it seems the cars DID get letter signs, but there are several pics of in service R11's sporting the #7 as late as 1971. So who knows?
BTW, is this TWO railfan windows I see on this train???
Is that Marcy Ave and a fan trip?
Correct on both counts. I'm surprised they didn't use the original #15 route curtain.
And the fantrip predates Chrystie, so the QJ designation wasn't even in use yet.
They must gave gotten a hold of a brand new route curtain and provided Jamaica riders with a sneak preview.:)
I have read that originally the R11's came with the extra railfan window.
It seems the window was covered with an advertising rack soon afterwards, and survived the R-34 overhaul/(bastardization)
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
Most of the older subway cars (from R1 up to the 11's at least) had GLASS on the offside of the cab ... R9 #1689 at Branford has its offside glass restored to see-through. The understanding is that back in the Board of Transportation days, that extra pane of see through glass required cleaning and it was determined that time could be saved by either painting it over, or replacing it with metal just to save on the time of cleaning that glass ...
It was also a good place to earn some advertising revenue on the inside of the cars!
What about the windows at the door pockets on the R-1/9s? Didn't they have ads or maps?
There was at least one map in each car, maybe more.
Most other door pocket walls had ads.
1965 the triplexes left and the R32 took over.
*Sniff*
Are those the BMT Triplexes or the Q-Types? I'm guess the Triplexes with those truncated tops.
Chris,
They are D-types in the upper photo. Therefor I would guess that it would have to be pre 1965. By 1965 the only D-types left in service were on the West End. (the last run of the D-types were on the West End in July of 1965.) There is a picture in the BMT ABs section of photos in this site showing ABs laid up between Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach, dated 1964. I assume the date is correct since in the background you can see Brightwaters Towers under construction. And from what I've been told by an impeccable source, the ABs were gone from the Brighton by 1966. There is a qualifier to this though: After Chrystie St., on rare occasions, when the R9s and R27s on the QJ ran into in service problems, an "M" AB train would be inserted into the QJ run and voila, you had an AB back on the Brighton for a rare run.
We've Got: Hot Lunch!
Well, the pics are obviously dated to the time that the Brighton platforms were being extended for 600' trains. I, too thought that D types during this time period on the Brighton was odd, but the R32 that appears on the second pics MUST date this picture to 1964 at the earliest. Question is, what's that Triplex doing there?
Question is, what's that Triplex doing there?
The R32s only started to be delivered in 1964. Triplexes ruled for most of the platform work period.
So maybe we're seeing one of the first R32's in actual service.
For sure.
I had heard that Brighton line riders hated the new R27/R30 & R32 cars because they didn't have the seating capacity the older standards and triplexes had.
The R27s in particualr were not that popular. I think factors included:
the commodious (and soft) seats of the Standards were replaced with the hard benches of the R27s;
the R27s were operated in a very uncomfortable manner. Acceleration and braking and shifts between modes (accelerating to coasting, for example) were very abrupt;
the lighting and interior were harsh;
the ventilation was a disaster. The Axiflow fans blasted on your head and in the winter, all the heat seemed to get sucked out of the cars on the outdoor portions of the line every time the doors opened. I think part of the problem was the door arrangements. Remember that the four door sets to a 60' car instituted on the IND were for a system that was almost completely underground;
the linoleum floors could kill you during the winter, slipping and sliding as people tracked slush in. The older BMT cars had concrete floors which (a) absorbed some of the moisture and (b) were rougher so rarely slippery.
The crowd problem must be why they spent most of their time on the local and not the Brighton Express.
At the time, the theory was that new equipment should go on local services in order to attract people off more crowded expresses and to take advantage of the faster acceleration/deceleration on the post-war R-types.
The latter theory worked pretty well on the IRT Broadway Local as opposed to the Lo-Vs that still worked the expresses.
So what are now calld "Redbirds" showed up first on the 1 and 6 and on the RR and QT. R16s also showed up early on the BMT Jamaica in one of many unsucessful efforts to attract riders from the E and F.
The only line I know of which consistently seemed to get the "latest and greatest" was the 7.
The #7 didn't get it this time; nor did they get it the previous (1985) time. Maybe next time, but that won't be until 2022 or so.
wayne
The only line I know of which consistently seemed to get the "latest and greatest" was the 7
Only when there's a World's Fair... Maybe they'll do something for 2012 if the line becomes important for Olympic events ;-)
The #7 (Flushing Line) also got new cars in 1948-50 (R-12, R-14 and R-15). Story goes that the new R-types went to the Flushing line as their door arrangement was incompatible with the gap fillers used on the Manhattan IRT lines.
-- Ed Sachs
The new R36 cars on Flushing World's Fair duty had the unique paint job, and many of them were named after states. Each of the 50 states was used once on one subway car per state. On my 1967 edition subway map is a World's Fair car (R36) that says, "State of Vermont," on its side.
Will Olympic event cars each have one country per car?
Actually, only a few states paid for their name on the cars. I think it was fewer than 11 and it was "singles only" ... Kansas, maybe Idaho, a couple of others but it wasn't that many. There was a charge for the name on the side, and it was pretty hefty.
There was a charge for the name on the side, and it was pretty hefty
Lets start a collection to name a car the "Joseph L Bruno" for 2012....
I'm sure the cup will be full of spit LONG before then. :)
Seriously, is Mercedes still making stretch railcars?
Kevin, I think that it was actually five states...Kansas, Vermont, Missouri, Rhode Island & Massachusetts.
That sounds about right ... you've clicked all the ones I remembered. And they were all singles too, right? They say when you get older, the mind goes first ... good thing it's not a VITAL organ. :)
None were singles; all were half of a pair. The whole list is here. 9440's my favorite car :).
Thanks for the fill-in there, I was never a car number counter myself. Only reason I ever noticed a car number was to turn it in (when I was geese) or write it up (when I had to sit in a cab) ... sadly, folks that end up working for the TA normally didn't pay much attention to that, too many other distractions. :)
But yeah, those fall outside the singles numbers. All those years, I thought they were singles. Whoops.
Those were the ONLY cars done. There was a sixth car, but NOT with a state name. It was 9658, with Neighborhood Youth Corps banners painted onto the sides between the doors.
So maybe we're seeing one of the first R32's in actual service.
That makes it even more interesting - one of the first R32's in actual service and one of the last Triplexes (one of the last on Brighton anyway).
This reminds me of the Franklin shuttle tracks. Are you sure this isn't them?
Yes.
Your looking at the track shifting around Newkirk Avenue station for the extension of the platform from 8 BMT Cars to 10 R-types, beginning in 1964.
The local platforms and express platforms except Newkirk Avenue could be extended without track changes, but the ends of Newkirk platforms were already so narrow that it was only possible to extend them by knocking down the cut walls at the Newkirk Avenue end in order to shift the local tracks outward.
This required the local tracks to be closed in Newkirk Avenue for the duration of the work. Express and local service was discontinued from Prospect Park to Kings Highway and a skip-stop service substituted. See the brochure below from The JoeKorner.
All trains ran on the local tracks between Prospect Park and Kings Highway except that they shifted to the express track at Newkirk. There were no switches at either side of Newkirk. The express tracks were simply stub-ended at each side of the construction and the local tracks in Newkirk were isolated.
During the period of skip-stop service, the TA got the bug in their heads that they could make it permanent and abandon Brighton Expresses entirely but opposition was organized and, after one of the first public hearings in TA history, express service was restored.
Note that the Brighton Express was still "1", not "Q", as long as the Triplexes lived and breathed (OK, ran their compressors).
That reminds me--this makes a trick trivia question--when did one service on the NYC subway carry two different letters at the same time?
Answer: During the Newkirk Avenue reconstruction in 1964, when a "QT" was also a "B".
Paul, thanks for all the great info. That really clears it up well.
BTW, The R27-30 in the photo has "QT" on it and the R32 has Q on it. (It's a bit clearer in the original photos).
Sure, Chris,
Of course, the R32 didn't have any numbers. And R27s also carried "Q" when they ran the Brighton Express on Saturday during the period before the Saturday expresses were discontinued, but basically, the Brighton remained the "1" for years after the R27s and first R32s were delivered and until the Triplexes were gone.
A "Q" indeed, somethings NEVER change, they just get older and better. And in this case, they inherit the classic Slant 40s!
wayne
And we had a nice express run down the Brighton on Monday, Oct. 14, followed by a parade of slants at Stillwell Ave. We thought about you as we sat outdoors at Nathan's and chowed down.
Yesterday we had a run UP the Brighton, #4202 the lead motor, we did dust a hippo just above Kings Highway, it was a very nice ride, at twilight, with the stations lit, the only thing that spoilt it was the slowdown for leaf dust approaching Newkirk. They had the little marker up there, with the yellow dots, indicating the slowdown. It was quite a day. Somewhere I shall post the log of it, which was 13 hrs long.
wayne
Looks like I got the time and location right, but the details wrong. Thanks for the rigt info.
I don't think this is the Brighton Line. If I had to make a guess, I'd say the pictures were taken on the Sea Beach line. That line also has the open cut and 4 tracks.
Newkirk in particular, and Newkirk to Prospect Park in general looks similar to Sea Beach. Take my word for it, that picture is absolutely Newkirk Ave. on the Brighton Line.
No, Church to Prospect Park looks most like the Sea Beach. Church to Glenwood cut was built earlier and to a different style.
In the first picture it seemed like there was a gap between the express tracks. To me I thought it was the Sea Beach Line between 8 Ave and the portal. When I wrote it, I hadn't read the answers that other people wrote after me. The bottom pic is definately the Brighton Line.
My trip to Washington, D.C.was yesterday. I went down to see my son in Beltsville, Md. I asked him if it would be OK before lunch to ride the Green Line from Greenbelt to Branch ave. and back.He said go do it, so off I went. As always I was impressed with the system, but disappointed I didn't get to ride one of the new CAF cars. I had Bredas the whole trip.I rode all the way down to Branch Ave. but on the return trip, I decided to ride a little of the Yellow line, so
I got off at L'Enfant Plaza, and took the Yellow to the Pentagon and back. I wanted to see the view of D.C. from the Yellow line's bridge. It's quite a view! After going back to Greenbelt, my son, his wife, and I had lunch at a great Deli in Silver Spring. Then we went to the National Capitol Trolley Museum and rode a Toronto PCC.
They only had 2 cars running one their (1) mile of track, and everything else was in pretty sad shape in a (2)barn type sheds. That place needs money & volunteers!
Anyway it was a nice change of pace, it got me away and stopped me thinking about my wife's passage just 2 weeks ago. Thanks again , Subtalkers for all your kind words.
Chuck Greene
Chuck,
I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed your ride on WMATA's Metrorail. I still miss NYCT (yes, I'm a native NY'er), but I always enjoy WMATA buses and subway. I'm suprised that you didn't get the CAF cars on the Green Line. There's plenty of them there now. I rode one of them on Friday evening.
Wayne
Yeah, for some reason, they didn't have any running on Satutday. or at least I didn't see any! WMATA's system is clean, efficient and on time!
Chuck Greene
However, when I drove home from College Park around 5PM, I did saw a four-car CAF train on Green line yesterday.
I hate driving out of campus after a football game. Every road exiting the campus is full of cars.
Chaohwa
My son works at UMD and told me to stay away from the area during any event. On my way back from Greenbelt staion I saw the eastbound(inner) loop of 495 backed up like crazy. At least Maryland won the game. I'm sorry I missed the CAF cars!
Chuck Greene
Oh yes. College Park (and some surrounding areas) are to be avoided during a UMD event. The Beltway can get just as bad as it does when there's a Redskins game.
Wayne
Just a quick thought...
First of all, glad you had a great time....I just wish I would've known you'd be there...coulda joined you and maybe turn it into a sort of Rail-Fan Road Trip....
An idea to subtalkers, whenever you're heading to another town with a system, let other subtalkers know, perhaps, they can "hook-up" and become "tour-guides" of their home system...I know I probably just confused you....
I just wish I knew ahead of time whenever subtalkers were coming to the DC/Baltimore area....there's nothing I love better than showing off the systems in both cities.
Mark
Mark:
I only had a limited amount of time on Saturday. Sometime I'll go down again and dedicate a day to riding. When I do that , I'd love to ride with you. It's always fun to go with another railfan.
I'll let you know when and we can get together.
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
Chuck,
I'll bring my 10-yr old son---he's a railfan in training :)
Mark
It's always nice to turn someone else into a railfan. I saw plenty of fathers with their kids, who we really enjoying the ride, like the
ducking into tunnels on the Green Line. My boy is 28, so I'm a lot older than you (I'm 60), but don't worry,except for my balding head, I look like 45.
See you some day....
Chuck Greene
According to Sunday's Times, the last two-block stretch of the Third Avenue El...the part beneath the IRT tracks at the Gun Hill Road station below the el tracks in regular service...will be removed as part of renovations along the line.
Subtalkers will remember that some 1950's vintage signage was still on the platform as recently as 3 years ago.
So finally the process that began in 1955 will conclude early in 2003...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Absolutely terrible. But I saw it coming. Let's just say I had a little to do with this project about 2 years ago.
--Brian
Bummer. :o(
What's the point of spending a lot money to remove some old steel beams and platforms? Isn't the state in some sort of budget crunch? Coudln't this money be spent on something more useful?
My thoughts exactly. The city and the MTA are bitching and they are doing this of all things. It makes me laugh out loud.
They are redoing the whole station complex and making it intermodal.
Actually, the process began in 1950 when they closed the Chatham Sq to South Ferry branch.
Funny thing, while driving N/B on the Bronx River Pkway I still expect to see the el above the Gun Hill Rd overpass.
Biggest mistake they ever made tearing it down. Those Bx55 busses can't really handle the traffic the shuttle carried. With some structural strengthening south of Fordham Road the el would have been an ideal feeder into the proposed 2nd Ave. line.
I have to agree with you there.
But let's not cry over spilled milk, as the old saying goes. We're moving on.
Seeing this scene in person must have been a sight to behold.
Since most of you guys are not in your 60's let me warn you of upcoming danger known as a senior moment. That's when you forget what you're supposed to know or just don't remember. This morning George Foolschow (sik) called me up and told me the book "The Sea Beach to Coney Island" was now available on E-Bay. I was elated and thanked him, then told my wife. She let the air out of the balloon by showing me a copy of the book she had purchased a year ago. I didn't even know I had it. Good God, does it even get worse?
BTW, I got even with my wife. The spelling is extrIcated, not extracated. That's what happens to a guy who always listens to his wife.
Sorry, the book's obsolete now. A new edition of the book would carry the title The Sea Beach to Gravesend-86th Street.
Sorry, the book's obsolete now. A new edition of the book would carry the title The Sea Beach to Gravesend-86th Street.
LOL! Oh man, Sea Beach Fred is going to freak when he see this!
Hey GP, I've had ample time to get used to Gravesend and 86th by now. It still freaks me out but not as much as not knowing I already had the book someone was trying to get me to buy. Is there a doctor in the house?
I ended up with two copies of "The Long Island Rail Road in Early Photographs" after winning one one eBay and not realizing I already had a copy (and I'm not in my 60's yet!) Luckily, I was able to sell the extra copy for about what I paid for it.
Hey about 10 years ago I bought two copies, on seperate occasions, of the book, The K4's Remembered. I think that's the name - see I can't even remember that. Well anyway, that's when I was in my early 20's!
You weren't dabbling in illegal mind-altering substances at the time, were you?
Nope, never do/did that. However I don't mind a few drinks now and then, but not often do I overdo it. I can't blame the double book buying on anything but pure stupidity. (And I didn't even say that I did it twice, once with another book, that luckily I was able to return, because I realized it the next day).
Senior Moment?! I've had Senior Episodes! I have any number of books (a lot that I bought on eBay) that duplicate others in my collection. You're lucky to have an astute wife; I depend on my Access database, which is woefully not up to date. In any event, I enjoyed talking to you today.
It's great to know guys that I'm not the only one who can't remember this from that. Hell, I can tell you what happened 40 and 50 years ago on a certain date, but what I had for breakfast yesterday, or whether I know I now have a certain book or not===well I have to admit I'm out to lunch. Quick, get that doctor fast.
Just what I have been telling you for 3 years now. YOU ARE SENILE
Thanks for your admirable support numnuts. I knew I could count on you for moral support. I could make a comment about the political situation today but I promised myself I wouldn't that route again for awhile.
Are you still trying to pick up young girls who are young enough to be your granddaughter? See you soon, and I am feeling much better, but still have the cough. Today it was 69 degrees, tomorrow rain, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE SMOG, hey that s your problem, you live in SMOG VALLEY USA
84 Degrees today in sunny Southern California, no smog and clean, clear air. We had one hell of a rainstorm Friday and Saturday, though.
Many years ago, I read of a proposal to build tracks under (or near) Prospect Park to connect Brighton and Culver. Since the Manhattan Bridge north tracks are closed now until?, run the V under the park with a stop at Prospect Park (on the shuttle tracks, both sides), then utilize the Franklin Shuttle tracks, so Franklin can become a terminus for the V similar to the Astoria (31street tracks or #3 Lenox termial) for the N/W and 3 respectively.
Brighton riders wanting to connect to the IND can do so at Prospect Park without having to go all the way to 34th Street. I know adjustments to the length of Franklin Stations and the single track to two tracks at Fulton Street would have to be made.
Prospect Park would have connections on the "wrong" side, so some how, that must be fixed too.
Many years ago, I read of a proposal to build tracks under (or near) Prospect Park to connect Brighton and Culver. Since the Manhattan Bridge north tracks are closed now until?, run the V under the park with a stop at Prospect Park (on the shuttle tracks, both sides), then utilize the Franklin Shuttle tracks, so Franklin can become a terminus for the V similar to the Astoria (31street tracks or #3 Lenox termial) for the N/W and 3 respectively.
Brighton riders wanting to connect to the IND can do so at Prospect Park without having to go all the way to 34th Street. I know adjustments to the length of Franklin Stations and the single track to two tracks at Fulton Street would have to be made.
Prospect Park would have connections on the "wrong" side, so some how, that must be fixed too.
Today my F train, which was several minutes late and packed with passengers, went on the local tracks from 21 St Queensbridge to Roosevelt Avenue, with the T/O blaring the horn as the train bulleted through each local station.
When I got to Roosevelt Avenue (around 4:50 PM) I saw an empty E train sitting on the express track.
I then saw my F train depart and cross over to the express track, with an E train following right behind on the local track.
The E train on the express track, running light, then left, still on the express track... and an F train with passengers was right behind that one.
I also heard an announcement, to the likes of "Due to , E and F trains are running at slow speed from Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza..."
SO..... any word on what happened today?
>> "Due to , E and F trains are running at slow speed from Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza..."
That was as much as I could make out of that announcement.
WIthout being there, the possiblity of one of two things: when the F was about to enter the express track at 36th St., that E train was in the process of going out of service. Just in case they had a problem with a passenger refusing to disembark, the F you were on would not be delayed behind it. Or, that E train was already out of service and had a speed restriction. No matter what, it was good train dispatching.
That E train Lost Indication between Q P and Roosevelt Ave. So Genius Decided to Go under the seat and pop a door on the express Run.So lets just say it tied a few trains up .
That's no reason for the train to go out of service. As soon as the door was opened, the motorman would stop the train upon losing indication and the crew would investigate the problem. They would close the door, problem solved, and remain in service.
Re-rebuilt gate cars 1407, 1273 & 1404 reside in the Museum. These were supposedly rebuilt from Q Type 1622 A-B-C. When 1622 was originally created in 1939 however, 1407, 1273 & 1265 were used. 1404 was originally 1603C. What happened?
It seems that in April 1957 1603C (1404) replaced 1622C (1265), and became the new 1622C.
A few of Q Types were scrapped in the 1950's, and some of the better cars replaced units of the remaining active Q's.
Thanks to the Dec 1965 issue of the New York Division ERA Bulletin and a Renumbering Chart by the late Ed Watson for this information.
Hi Karl: I see that your starting to get some mileage out of those bulletins. There's only five Q's left and three of those are on borrowed time. The one at Kingston has one end stove in. Only the one at the TA museum is in good shape.
Do you have the book "UNIFYING THE SUBWAYS" by Frederick Kramer?
There is a picture on page 64 of the BMT Coal Train being hauled by Q types. One of the Q's at the end of the train has not standard marker lights in a non-standard positon underneath the roof line. Could this be a QX trailer? Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Those two pictures are a puzzle. If you look closely, there are no rooftop markers visable on any of those cars. The QX's were supposed to be a motor car and a control trailer. If the train is what we think we see, it would mean that the TA sent out a coal train with two motor cars, two trailers, and three hopper cars. That's an awful load for two motor cars to pull around. I don't think we are seeing what we think we are seeing.
Another puzzle... The roofs are already cut down on these cars which would indicate late 1950's, yet I thought that all of the station coal stoves were replaced by electric heaters in the early 1950's.
Fred Kramer would be the person to ask as to the picture dating and car numbers, but I am still waiting for an answer from him on another question from eight months ago.
Karl: I believe that you have the The Brooklyn Elevateds" by James Greller. Take a look at page 74. There is a picture of QX 1635 with the lowered roof and the markers below the roofline. Very similar to the picture on page 64 of "Unifying The Subways."
Why would the QX's have had there roofs lowered since they never came over to the IRT. Was it because with lowered roofs they could operate anywhere on the BMT whereas with the higher roofs they could not operate through Montague Street. Also you raise a good point. Why would you want a trailer in a work train?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, That sure would appear to be a QX with the strange markers, lowered roof, and also subway type pickup shoes, at least on the first three trucks. It would sure seem that these OX's in work service must have been both motorized instead of one unit being a control trailer.
I don't know about you, but I am hoping to find an explanation in one of those old ERA Bulletins.
Thanks for the info, Karl. Fascinating... my insatiable curiosity compels me to ask you a couple of questions about this. Do you know when 1404 was originally rebuilt into Q-type 1603C? Also, when were 1622A-B-C retired and rebuilt into gate cars? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
AFAIK they were re-rebuilt into gate cars in 1979 or 1980.
Frank, All of the Q types were created from 1200's and 1400's in early 1939, in time for the World's Fair. The QX's were supposedly created in 1939/40, during the fair. I was around then, but I was too young to take notes so I am passing on info that I gained from reading various books. I hope that it is right.
I see that Steve B has already commented on the dates of the re-rebuilt gate cars.
What happenned to 1601A? I have something from that car...
BTW, there are 3 Q's in MOW yellow sitting out on the far end of SBK Yard. They are in horrendous shape and look like they had fires in them at one time. Supposedly, vagrants are living in them.
The original 1601A was 1433.
1601A became 1604A in 3/59.
1624A(1295) became 1601A in 3/59.
1601A-B-C apparently served until the end of the Myrt in 1969.
Thanks, Karl.
In case anyone's interested:
The N was running at least one train of R-32's, at least one train of R-40M's, at least one train of R-68(A)'s (sorry, I wasn't paying close attention at the time -- the train came just at the perfect time to ruin a shot I was about to take of a W train). Otherwise it was the usual R-40's.
The W was running at least one train of R-32's and at least three trains of R-40's -- two in a row, then an R-68(A) train, then a third.
There was also an R-40M set in the yard signed as a diamond-Q.
I didn't see the CI R-42's. Were they on the road today?
I wasn't aware that R42s had made it to CI, do you have the numbers so I can change the dots in my R42 file?
wayne
I haven't seen any myself. Alex L says he's operated a set on the N. (Surprising, since ENY is not yet rid of its R-40M's.)
Here's the roster of R-42 cars assigned to Coney Island:
4665
David
P.S.: It's coupled to 4460 (R-40M)
Nice
Oh, just that one? I had been led to believe that there was a full train's worth, running solid. In that case, it may have been running on the N -- I wasn't examining each car.
With the most recent shifts of November 3-4, we're down to just 3 trains of R-32s at Coney Island, plus spares.
Enjoy the sights & sounds on the Broadway BMT. Their end draws near....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I didn't see the CI R-42's. Were they on the road today?
Wow, I didn't realize any of them were sent to CI yet. I can't wait to see one somewhere off of the JMZL. I'm so used to them there. It will be strange to see them off of the Eastern Division lines again.
I was at the Canal Street station and when over at the Manny B bicycle/Pedestrian cross way for 1/2 day, and what I've seen on the W, are mostly R68A, few slants, one or two R32, no R40M or 42. Mostly R68A on the Q, Mostly R46 on the R with no R32 sighting, then went to Pacific Street where I've seen N with some R32, more slants, one or two R68.
The only R42 assigned to CI is M/K car 4665. The M/K R42's are numbered 4550 to 4839. Several of these are scrapped. The CI R42's are numbered 4840 to 4949 with none scrapped. All are assigned to ENY except 4665 which is married to R40M 4460. These 2 cars are assigned to CI.
M/K R42's received their GOH from Morrison/Knudsen. CI R42's received their GOH in house at CI main shop.
West Chester, Pennsylvania. The WCRR operates between Glen Mills and West Chester under catenary, on the former PRR, PC, and SEPTA West Chester branch. The West Jersey Chapter NRHS chartered a trip on Saturday November 9 which used 1949 Alco S2 #3 and 1960 MLW RS18 #1803 with ex PRR baggage car (snack bar) #9275 and coaches 9114 and 9117, de-motored ex-Reading Blueliner MU's.
Photos have been uploaded to a Webshots page.
Very nice Bob, thanks for sharing.
Great pictures.
Great shots! I hadn't even been aware of 9109's existence. Thanks for posting.
Out of curiosity, are you planning to leave these shots online for the foreseeable future, or take them down after a month or two to "rotate in" new pics?
Frank Hicks
Thanks. I intend to leave them up for the forseeable future.
I just looked at the page (I can't see Webshots at work; the morality police application blocks it) and realized that I had neglected to upload my favorite shot. It's up now.
Look at what I found on a platform in Penn Station. Someone at Amtrak's ad revenue department needs to have their head dunked in a toilet for this f--- up.
Government agencies are under more restrictions than private parties in terms of their right to reject advertising on the grounds they just don't like it.
If Amtrak refused this ad, it would create a big stink, publicity about "what are you afraid of", etc.
If Amtrak can't hold on to its loyal customers despite this ad, then it can't succeed anyway.
Saw the ad this past Thursday myself. I presume that Amtrak has sold the ad space in bulk to a reseller, and the resale contract probably only restricts advertising for legally objectionable items.
On the other hand, I saw an ad for Amtrak at the Denver airport last year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ad agency in question may be Viacom Outdoor (formerly TDI, Inc.), one of the largest transit ad contractors in the US. They control poster ad space on SEPTA property as well.
I think the ads in the subway used to be run by a company called "Gannett" Transit or something (don't know if that is still the case). When I was in college, in one of my marketing classes we had to do a term project involving a product, and method of advertising, marketing , etc for it. OF course my "product" involved subway ads on the trains and in the stations - What better way to kill two birds with one stone. It made me have to research something I was interested in (the subway, or at least a part of it any way - the ads) and do a term project at the same time. So I learned a lot about subway advertising at that time, (and got an A on my project).
Amtrack can specify in it's contract that it does not want competitors advertising on billboards in penn station
Many ads including tv, cable tv . internet and billboards are sold by third party ad representation compnies. The owners of the bilboards or tv airtime can specify to the third part rep company which advertisers it will not accept. For instance most tv stations won't run ads for a competing tv station. Cablevision will not accpept an ad for directv on the ad space it controls on its cable system
Either Amtrack never request that delta airlines should not run on ts billboards or no one is paying attention at amtrack
It is an ad for American, not Delta. Maybe Amtrak didn't expect Amtrak to enter the market. Then again, Amtrak has been known to buy ads at the airports. I think they had one at LGA reading "The only departures from Downtown"
It's so stupid it's sad. Here's some words from another stupid commercial (this for McDonald's)
"Wow A Big and Tasty for just 99 cents. You did your thing dog! Not that I'm calling you a dog, you're more like a big purple.....I don't know what you are."
Their latest commercials show that if you eat at McDonald's everyday, youre going to look like "Grimace". A hidden message not too hard to uncover. :-0
It appears to be a strategically designed ad. Notice how the overhead view of the plane nose could make it pass for the front of one of the more advanced trains.
What's the surprise? They contract out the ad space to a company that does advertising and said company fills the billboards. Whomever loads the ads doesn't really care who the hell they sell the space to, and they don't have to.
In any case, what wrong with AA advertising their services in Penn? Last I checked, it wasn't illegal to advertise an air service....
It is generaly smart NOT to advritise for your direct compeditor in your own store. You never see NBC running ads for shows on ABC.
>>> You never see NBC running ads for shows on ABC. <<<
But you do see them running ads for HBO, and frequently guests on the late night talk shows are plugging their series on ABC. They do not ignore the competition like ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Tom
"What's the surprise? They contract out the ad space to a company that does advertising and said company fills the billboards. Whomever loads the ads doesn't really care who the hell they sell the space to, and they don't have to."
While not as "dramatic" and not in the same category as the American Airlines ad, about 3 years ago, 103.5 WKTU bought space on Northeast Corridor Amtrak/NJ Transit stations, including PRINCETON JUNCTION. If you can pick up WKTU anywhere close to Princeton, you might have super-human powers. There is a 14,000 watt radio station at 103.3 in Princeton called WPRB.
What's the surprise? They contract out the ad space to a company that does advertising and said company fills the billboards. Whomever loads the ads doesn't really care who the hell they sell the space to, and they don't have to.
This is not exactly so. An advertizer *can* specify a specific location, even a specific billboard. The ad company will be more than happy to sell it to them under whatever terms they wish to negotiate.
AMTK *could* have set restrictions on these billboards when they made their contract with the ad company. Apparently they did not restrict this kind of ad.
All of this being said... AMTK ought have no problem with the add, as it confirms to its riders that AMTK *is* stiff competition to the airlion. Besides, those who are taking the train already know that it is far more convient than the airplane. Before I could get to an airport and onto an airplane from the place where this billboard stands, I could ALREADY BE IN WASHINGTON on this next train out!
Elias
One thing to note is that the American Eagle service being advertised uses regional jets that seat only about 45 passengers. As a result, the service is so small-scale that it barely qualifies as competition to Acela.
On Sun Nov 10 20:49:52 2002, Jersey Mike <mbrotzman@wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>
> Look at what I found on a platform in Penn Station. Someone at Amtrak's ad revenue department
> needs to have their head dunked in a toilet for this f--- up.
>
> <img src="http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_Stupid-ad.jpg">
>
Sorry, Mike, but I can't see the picture. Are you sure it's on your website?
- Lyle Goldman
I take them down after about 2 weeks to make room for newer pics. Sorry.
Oh, it was an American Eagle Ad, advritising shuttle flights to DC and Boston and how much better they are.
I wwas in town today to check out a few things. Took a #5 to East 180th St. and a #2 back to 34th St. Penn Station. But before I boarded that #2 train, I noticed a couple of things in East 180th St. yard.
One Redbird #7848, totally dark, roll signs turned to black or just plain missing, but, the storm door had a lock and chain on it. Wonder what that is all about ?
Another Redbird #9001 signed up #5 Bowling Green, her marker lights were amber and green. Boy do I miss those color marker lights. But the Bowling Green front destination sign is not the current type being used. The font looks like when the IRT first used color bullets on their route signs back about 20 years ago. A rareity but a goodie !
Explain this Stef !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC, 7848 was converted to schoolcar or storage....
..there was a thread on it a few weeks back south..
Here are the secnd set of pictures from my Toronto Trip over the weekend of October 11th to the 14th. Links are in alphabetical order.
Here is an interrior shot of Albany's new Union Station
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Albany_New-Station-Inside-1.jpg
Looks like a busy time in Amtrak's Sunnyside Yard.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Amt_Sunnyside-3.jpg
Here is a view of the ailing Buffalo Central Terminal, the former Conrail ShortLine branching off to cut through the passenger concourse. Note the flying pidgeons. The tower's clocks have been restored.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Buffalo_Central_Terminal-4.jpg
Here is a shot of the other side of the Buffalo Central Terminal
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Buffalo_Central_Terminal-6.jpg
Here is a view of the rear of the passenger concourse.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Buffalo_Central_Terminal-concourse-rear.jpg
Here is an old CN geep in Niagaria Falls ON
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CN_7018.jpg
Here is the draw bridge over the Cos Cob creek on the Metro North New Haven Line. The catenary is not present over the draw span and trains have had to coast through the gap since 1908.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Cos-Cob_PDO.jpg
here is CSX geep 2777 standing by the Rochester yard tower. Note how the old NYC tower has been incorporated into the modern structure.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CSX_2777+Old-Tower.jpg
Here's a find. MNRR FL-9 #412 in MNRR colours hanging out at Utica New York near the equipment for the Adarondak Senic Railroad. Note former NYC Tower 30. Tower 30 is the only other NYC tower surviving on the Chicago Line in New York State. All the rest have been demolished for tax reasons.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/MNRR_412+Tower_30@UTICA.jpg
Two views of the Niagara River from the CN bridge at Niagara Falls.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Niagara-Gorge-2.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Niagara-Gorge-4.jpg
Amtrak #814 sitting in Toronto Union Station ready to take the Maple Leaf back home.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Toronto-Union-Station-Amt_814.jpg
A TCC Subway train at Warren
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/TTC-@-Warren.jpg
For all you BusTalkers, one of the many old TTC GM busses.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/TTC_GM-bus.jpg
TTC #5186
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/TTC_5186.jpg
The TTC RoW down the median of a freeway.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/TTC-median-RoW.jpg
The famout TCC Subway Viaduct. The underground subway Subway emerges into daylight due to a deep river valley.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/TTC-Viaduct.jpg
Active Amtrak UNION tower, Rahway NJ.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/UNION-0.jpg
A lock on the Welland Canal between Lake Eria and Ontario.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Welland-Canal.jpg
Thanks. Nice photos.
--Brian
Saturday afternoon as I was riding a Dyre Avenue Redbird, as the train was going on the EL structure towards East 180th station, I noticed a group of various redbirds, a R-36, a R-26 with green Dyre Avenue stickers and believe it or not an R-29 with Pelham Yellow stickers, are these cars being converted into something or being prepped to be "reefed"? Thank You
I was up in Syracuse, NY, for the big trainshow last weekend. Here are links to some of the photos I took:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/syracuse1
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/syracuse2
--Brian
Yes that's right, go the Amtrak Railsale right now and you'll find train 304 (BTW, which one is that?), offering a FREE ride between Kansas City and St. Louis! Now you cannot beat that deal! Wonder if it's a leftover from Warrington that Gunn doesn't know about? Wonder what the reaction of the ticket people would be if you wanted to get your money back after a disatisfactory trip? Maybe, "You git whatchu pay for!"?
Oh yeah, since it's hard to find (or at least I had problems) the Railsale is located here
Thanks for posting that.
The train is actually train #306, and the rail sale price is $27. The regular price ranges from $27-$53.
I'd buy a ticket right now but it's a reserved train. I'd have to know which train I wanted and on what day.
On Wednesday I wrote a post called: "It's Great to be a Republican Today." My intention was to show my pride and happiness that my party had defied the pundits and won a nice victory in the mid-term election. I had hoped my fellow GOPERS would respond. Some did, but the post soon deteriorated into name calling, inuendoes, and a lot of bile and nastiness. For the good of all of us, it is high time we put this subject to bed. Some did not like it because the election didn't come out their way and a lot of nasty things were said on both sides. We don't need any flamage on this board and so I'm asking all of you to let this matter drop and go away once and for all so we can just get back to arguing over the merits of why the Sea Beach is the greatest subway line of all.
I also want to put an end to the MTA cuts and related threads. I started it, and it got a little too personal.
America is a free country and we all need to respect our pluses and shortcomings.
There is a saying "whatever will be will be". And that no one should give up on life. We all should fight to improve our own lives, as well as the lives of others. Everyone has their own goals, and works at their own pace.
That said, I'm gonna do my best to leave the sociological talk by the wayside. If it comes up again, I'll have to punish myself by taking an R68 through the rat infested Montague tunnel. :-0
And if you spot a rat, you have to yell, "THERE'S ONE!!!!!!":)
That's my clarion call in the Montague and it is as good as any other I can think of. But those creatures are sure disgusting. And, BTW, where the hell is that picture you promised me. Come on friend and get off the dime.
Fred: The way you put it it would seem that rats only exist in the Montague Street Tunnel, actually they can be found all over the subway system and throughout the world. There are even rats in the open cut of the Sea Beach Line.
Rats have been a part of the subway system ever since Al Beach took out the first spade of dirt for the Pneumatic Subway.
Did you know that when Columbus landed in the New World a rat walked
right down the gangplank behind him?
Throughout history rats have suffered from bad press. We are told that rats were the cause of the Bubonic Plague of the Middle Ages. Not so.'' Rats, along with humans died by the hundreds of millions, not to mention the billions of fleas who succombed. And since rats and humans lived side by side isn't it fair to say that it was the human who infected the rats and not the other way around.
We are told that a rat betrayed his country in the Revolutionary War. This is pure bull. It was a human by the name of Benedict Arnold who sold out his country for thirty pieces of silver. The good loyal American rats at the time were doing there best to consume British food supplies.
It easy when your three thousand miles away on the wrong side of the San Andreas fault to speak ill of some poor little four leged creature who lives in abjecy poverty and is just trying to get by on a few miserable pieces of chesse. I can honestly say that I never heard a rat say a bad word about Sea Beach Fred, which is probably more than I can say for myself at this time.
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
Oh GREAT, Larry ... like there aren't already ENOUGH special interest groups for the politicos to pander to? For shame. Now that the Greens, Right to Life, Liberal and Libertarian parties have spit the electoral bit in this state because they didn't get enough votes, it's time to put the Squeaky Rodent party on the books. And it's ALL your fault. :)
Selkirk: Hi buddy. You may not be aware of it but rats have been active in politics for a long time. Rats can be found in all political parties and in all branches of government. Rats can even be found in the transit industry. Several years ago there was a bus company running between Hoboken and New York by the name of Red Apple Transit, which if you abbreviate it is R. A. T.
And don't forget that movie where the rats took over the Toronto Subway.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Yipe ... I just saw that "RATS" movie on Fox a few weeks ago. Lameass movie too. And yeah, don't have to remind me of the political affiliations of our furry little friends, they had a victory party here late Tuesday night, flashing their fun passes and holding up their "Via Bridge" signs. Moo. :)
No more politics, remember? No more Pataki bashing. And BMT Doug, if you are out there reading this, do your service and send a broadside to these guys telling them to cut it out like you did to me. Either that, or you will your credibility as nothing more than a selective politcal hack. If you are going to criticize my GOP flaunting, then you must condemn Pataki bashing as off subject. But I don't think you will.
Who's bashing Paturkey? The rats have their OWN chamber in the capit-hole. And don't mess with them, they've got their fun passes and their "Via Bridge" signs ready to slap anyone who sez different. :)
I'll let others bash our goober now that reality's starting to leak out. Don't matter to me, ain't no subways or stubways here.
Hey Kev, don't forget about the "No Foaming" signs.:)
Foaming's permitted in our place, as long as it's beer. :)
Remember Rheingold Beer with its ten-minute head? I still remember all of their commercials when they sponsored the Mets. Hal Linden did a number of voice-overs on those commercials.
Yeah, but when that "10 minute head" slogan got turned into a drug joke, it went away pretty quickly. Or was it that Consumers' Union actually timed it without benefit of some salt as was done on those commercials? Hmmm. That was some mighty crappy beer though. :)
Now that you mention it, the reference to the 10-minute head went away around 1970. After that, their marketing people came up with the idea of promoting Rheingold as being "natural", brewed with nothing more than water, barley malt, corn, and hops.
I can go through my Mets yearbooks of that era and compare some of their slogans from year to year.
Yeah, for those who weren't aware of it, in 1969 and 1970 there was a drug going around called "DMT" (I *think* the proper name was DiMethylTriptane) and the brokers on Wall Street would smoke that stuff and it would last for ten minutes, making it the perfect lunchtime recreational ... it became known around the city as the "ten minute head" which cheesed off Rheingold to NO end. And no, I was a relatively good boy at the time. I smoked all my vegetables, but that was about it. :)
Come on Steve, get your head out. I know you are a confirmed bachelor but hell, Rheingold Beer shouldn't be remembered for a ten minute head or ten minutes in the head. It should be remembered for nice things like Loretta Rissell, Miss Rheingold of 1963. What a babe, the kind of young lady you would be glad to bring home to visit Momma.
I began following the Mets in 1968 and got hooked on them in '69. I'm not sure if they still had a Miss Rheingold by then.
No, I won't tell Linda about Loretta Rissell.:)
No ppprooooblluuummmmmm Steve, my wife already knows about Loretta Rissell and Mary Austin (1952). As I have mentioned before so many times, my wife trust me completely and knows I do not do anything below board. However, I like to look and converse with attractive women of all ages. I like women period. But I know where to call it a halt even if some of them sometimes don't. But Loretta was a nice clearn looking young lady.
FYI, I mailed out that photo yesterday after getting home from work. You can plainly see the word "Cyclone" through the trees.
Hey Steve, it is like the "check is in the mail". If you don't mind I will wait until I see it for myself and then thank you. Oh hell, why not!!!! I will thank you now-----prematurely, of course, but thank you. That Selkirk, what a horse's #$%. But I still like the guy.
You should see it by the end of the week.
I liked Selkirk when I met him. Ditto for his wife.
Giant RAT??? Hey, whats a TWU party without the giant rat?? Somebody took all the pics from Branford off the 239th bulliten board but trimmed out all my pics of two demonstrations...the giant rat sticks out. Anyone for a 'giant inflatable rat franchise?' CI Peter
Peter,
Eyeballed that giant inflated rat this AM on location with the
Greenpoint Film Factory at Russell Street and Norman Avenue
along with other props for "Third Watch".
;-) Sparky
"If you are going to criticize my GOP flaunting, then you must condemn Pataki bashing as off subject."
If you had flaunted the GOP victory because of the good things they will do for transit, that would have been on subject. Similarly, bashing a NY politician of either party when they damage transit is on subject.
Schumer has gotten his share of bashing too, you may remember. And some less than totally kind things have been said about Manhattan's Borough President.
And how could I forget. Sheldon Silver has not exactly been treated kindly on this board either.
To the extent Democrats have any power, they get their share of bashing.
Yep, and that's a wise, simple rule of conduct. It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate transit from politics since public transportation IS a political animal. When I go after Bruno or the other demagogs, it's ALWAYS within a transit perspective. But while there is no separating transit and politics, it's quite another thing to sit and gloat pure "in your face" partisanism. I think that's where we got ourselves collectively in trouble.
And once the budget is revealed and the extent of political damage is known to all, I expect there will be public lynchings of politicians here and it WILL be on topic. :(
Larry, thanks for a very funny AND informative post....:)
Thank you Doug for some of your earlier posts. I hope to see you this Saturday at Branford.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I'll be there!
Mr. & Mrs. Sparky will be there also. Gathering of the .......:-)
Once upon a time...
We lived on Bond Street (at Bergen)
and people would come over to our house in order to attend the Saturday Evening Mass. One of the ladies was up on our neighbor's stoop. I said "Hey... Our house is over here."
She said: "Theres was a rat in the street."
I looked at it and said "Yeah... its almost dead."
She said: "I thought it was a cat and I reached down to pet it!"
Well she came down off of the neighbor's stoop, and came into our house, and I went outside to scoop up the rat with a dust pan and drop him into the garbage.
She says: "You put it in OUR garbage pail?"
Hehehehe.....
The neighbor kids said: "What! No flowers"
and so we picked a sprig of weeds and placed them on top of the garbage pail.
Later (Monday morning) the Department of Snaitation truck comes, and so I tell the sanitation agent that there is a rat in that pail.
He puts it down in a hurry, he says, "Is it alive?"
I say, "It was when we put him in there, but I suspect he is dead now."
The sanitation agent opens the pail, sees that the rat is dead, and then with macho aplom empties the pail into his truck.
: ) Elias
Fred is on the San Andreas fault, or about 20 miles south of it the way the crow flies.
Well I heard in Calcutta they have a building where they worship rats, so you can tell me all about when you return from your trip there. In the meantime thanks for the history lesson. Are you about the critter to followed Chris down the gangplank. I never heard of that. Interesting if true. And yes, no rat has ever bothered me in New York. One did go by me on Utica Avenue like I was't even there.
We've got one of those buildings up here too, but it's over in Albany. Curry optional. :)
I saw a rat in the Lexington Ave. IRT subway tunnel in 1993 while standing in front of the railfan window of a #6 train. It was on the southbound track of the 103rd St. station. There are rats everywhere in the subway system.
#3 West End Jeff
The Philistines sent a dozen golden rats to the Israelites with the ark of the covenant and a half dozen gold tumors. You can read about it in 1 Samual. I think it is around chapter 4.
As I mentioned in an earlier post today, the film is being developed as I write this, and the promised photo should be in the mail before the end of the week.
I heard you the first time Steve. When someone tells me something twice I begin to think it is like the check is in the mail. I'm beginning to think you don't believe your own story. I'll be waiting.
Your rat is not partial to the BMT. He was seen at East 149th Street and 3rd Avenue yesterday (11/11) evening from the railfan window of a #5 train. He personally asked me to send you his regards.
--Mark
If he was the fat rat you must have mistaken him for John Corzine.
Nope ... this rat was not wearing glasses. Not even the safety ones :)
--Mark
Could it have been Hillary in drag? I wouldn't put anything past her.
That's not nice, Fred.
Nobody should be compared to a rat. Unless you are dealing with the lab variety. White rats are cute. Your regular old Norway rat, not.
Fred's shown that he has no thoughts of his own, talk to Rush Limbaugh ... the man who REQUIRED SURGERY in order to "listen." Sorry to put it this way, but there's no talking to dittoheads, their minds has already been made up by OTHERS. :(
Aren't you GLAD you're a republican? No brains required! :)
>>My intention was to show my pride and happiness that my party had defied the pundits and won a nice victory in the mid-term election.<<
Hello Fred, you and I share the same political beliefs, but notice that I stayed out of the path of a tidal wave of politcally charged posts.
You have to admit, that when you go off topic with a sensitive subject like politcs, you attracted more flies to honey than vinegar. Looks like you tipped over a 55 gallon drum of honey ! Even Jeff Rosen's post had large screaming letters begging Dave Pirmann to delete this thread. I guess you're right about the thread taking on a life of it's own.
I had a little thread going on about Chambers St. (J)(M)(Z). Next to 76th St, Chambers St. is the station that evokes much history and mystery. No politics there, so no flame war.
So in closing, this is not my web site, so I can't tell you guys to stay on topic. But, we seem to get along just fine when we keep it on topic and keep the flames in the barbecue where they belong.
Bill "Newkirk"
THEN WHY THE HELL DID YOU CREATE A NON-RAIL RELATED THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE? What does your gloating about elections have to do with this site?
WHAT YOU DID WAS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE REFRAINED FROM: "It's Great to be a Republican Today." had nothing to do with R-9s, R-142s or the Sea Beach Line...stop creating off-topic threads...
Ironically, this is the stuff Freddy was talking about. I stayed away from the first thread, and I'll stay away from this one.
fRED AND HIS %&#$mouth
Tell you what I'll do Doug. Next time I decide to do something I will check with you because you are perfect and never make a damn mistake. I expected more from you than that biled response you gave me. Yes, I should have probably crap canned that topic but I let my enthusiasm get carried away. But you didn't win any points by jumping all over me because that's pure bull@#$%. Am I supposed to lampoon you when I think you go overboard. Watch what you wish for because you could get it. Hopefully the next posts between us will be ones where mutual respect is the byword. I've always had a high regard for you and was disappointed in what just transpired. Have a nice Veteran's Day.
What exactly were you thinking, why did you go an create a thread with a title like that when you have seen that Subtalk is a tinderbox, all you did was offer everyone a match with which to light it. Of course the other side is going to be mad that they lost, thats life, but coming back and smearing it in our faces, hell, thats just wrong. Im sure you were all mad when Clinton got his first and second terms, but really, its worse for us, we cant have all that Polical BS [ken starr, grand juries] that the GOPers pulled with Clinton.
Of course, the underlying assumption in "this" (i.e. the "It's Great" thread) is that the Republicans and Democrats are actually SEPARATE parties. Far from it - they're just parts of a single organization, stringing the public along with a mega-fiction at huge expense.
Anybody who has ever paid any attention to politics knows by now that EVERYTHING is decided far in advance - every campaign, every debate, every attack ad, every controversy, and every Election Day - EVERYTHING (except, perhaps, the occasional death of a candidate). The "Republicans" won big ONLY because the scriptwriters said so. It's that simple.
<< EVERYTHING is decided far in advance - every campaign, every debate, every attack ad, every controversy, and every Election Day - EVERYTHING (except, perhaps, the occasional death of a candidate). The "Republicans" won big ONLY because the scriptwriters said so. It's that simple. >>
Thanks for setting the record straight.
Watch out for the black helicopters...and remember to change the parts in your head.
PS: We never really landed on the moon, it was all filmed on a Hollywood sound stage.
Remember - just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not out to get you!! Keep your guard up - theyre watching you !!!!!!!!!
>>> but the post soon deteriorated into name calling, inuendoes, and a lot of bile and nastiness. For the good of all of us, it is high time we put this subject to bed <<<
What a surprise!!! Since starting a political (or sports) "up yours" thread has never deteriorated in the past. Perhaps some of us should learn from this and stick to starting transit related threads only.
Tom
Hello, all. A few weeks ago, somebody (I think it was a conductor named Paul) mentioned two people, named Robert Ray and Leyton Gibson, slowing down the Subway system. Exactly who were these people, and how is it that they slowed down the Subways? No one explained this.
- Lyle Goldman
"Hello, all. A few weeks ago, somebody (I think it was a conductor named Paul) mentioned two people, named Robert Ray and Leyton Gibson, slowing down the Subway system. Exactly who were these people, and how is it that they slowed down the Subways? No one explained this."
Robert Ray:
Motorman, 14th Street Wreck
Layton Gibson:
Motorman, Williamsburg Bridge Wreck
For the bendfit of those who don't know/remember, Robert Ray is alive and Leyton Gibson died in the wreck.
Oh, those guys. I remember the incidents; I just didn't recognize the names.
- Lyle Goldman
>>Hello, all. A few weeks ago, somebody (I think it was a conductor named Paul) mentioned two people, named Robert Ray and Leyton Gibson, slowing down the Subway system. Exactly who were these people, and how is it that they slowed down the Subways? No one explained this.<<
Robert Ray was a motormen who drove a 4 train drunk at the wheel. Like all drunks he passed out at the wheel. Because of a GO all 4 trains was running local south of 14 street so he had to go over a switch at 10 mph. When he hit the switch he ran at 40 mph and crashed the train killing 4 and injuring 200. This was in 1991.
Leyton Gibson was a mototmen who for some reason was running a 16 hour shift. When entering the Williamsburg bridge he fell asleep. There was another stopped train on the bridge also. For some reason the trip mechanism didn't stop the train and Leyton's train rear ended the stopped train(I belive it was a M train that was rear ended by the J). BTW this was June 5 1995, the same day as my birthday. I am happy to say that was the last fatality on NYC rails involving collisions or human error(Airtrain dont count since thats Port Authority property).
As for slowing down the system, I don't know how.
"As for slowing down the system, I don't know how."
That's easy. The investigations into these accidents showed deficiencies in the signal system and in the cars (as far as stopping distance went), and NYCT was determined to ensure that they couldn't happen again. Modifications to the cars and the signals were made throughout the system, which has resulted in the system being slower than it was prior to August 1991. For details, look at old posts for things like "field shunting."
David
>>>When he hit the switch he ran at 40 mph and crashed the train killing 4 and injuring 200.<<<
5 people were killed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert Ray was a motormen who drove a 4 train drunk at the wheel. Like all drunks he passed out at the wheel.
Subway trains don't have steering wheels.
Because of a GO all 4 trains was running local south of 14 street so he had to go over a switch at 10 mph.
Actually, the GO was that 4 trains were running express. This was at night, when the 4 is (and was, in 1991) scheduled to run local.
For some reason the trip mechanism didn't stop the train
The trip mechanism did engage the train's emergency brakes, but the train was still moving when it reached the train in front of it.
As for slowing down the system, I don't know how.
The signal system is supposed to protect against incidents of this sort. The first incident occurred because there was no speed enforcement over switches -- hence the birth of the WD. The second incident demonstrated that the signal system would only do its job with more rapid brakes or with slower trains, requiring adjustment of one of the three.
BTW this was June 5 1995, the same day as my birthday.
Hey! June 5th is *my* birthday! What were you doing in 1948?
: )
As for slowing down the system, I don't know how.
You can read the NTSB report on the Williamsburg Bridge Wreck on their website.
The newer trains require greater stopping distances than what the older signal systems allowed for, and so the blocks ad to be lenghtened, or the trains slowed down. Guess which is cheaper!
Elias
<<<>>>
Slowing down the entire system. I would have rather seen them lengthen the signal block so that if another motorman falls asleep at the controller the train might actually stop before it crashes into another train.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>>The newer trains require greater stopping distances than what the older signal systems allowed for, and so the blocks ad to be lenghtened, or the trains slowed down. Guess which is cheaper!<<<<
Slowing down the entire system. I would have rather seen them lengthen the signal block so that if another motorman falls asleep at the controller the train might actually stop before it crashes into another train.
#3 West End Jeff
>>Hey! June 5th is *my* birthday! What were you doing in 1948?<<
I wasnt even alive in 1948. I dont think at least.
>>The newer trains require greater stopping distances than what the older signal systems allowed for, and so the blocks ad to be lenghtened, or the trains slowed down. Guess which is cheaper! <<
I presume lenghtened blocks would be cheaper since I saw no new B or A division trains out until 2000
Leyton Gibson was not working a 16 hour shift. As far as I knew, he was a 40 hour week man. He was working midnights and was on his last trip of his workday following his RDO's. I was working early AM's on the J that pick. We had just passed each other at Alabama Ave. (I had just pulled my train out of ENYD). Just before I went underground north of 121 St., all hell broke loose on the radio. Upon arrival at Parsons/Archer, I was told what happened. Later, the dispatcher told all of us motormen to call our singificant others that "I'm okay". Around 6:30 AM, a girlfriend called my wife on the phone, waking her out of sleep telling her of the incident. My wife "didn't get it" at first. Shortly thereafter, some else called and my wife freaked out. She called a conductor friend of mine (now a train operator) apologetically waking him out of sleep. He asked her the time of the incident. He knew what time I left Jamaica Center and told her that I didn't cross the bridge for the first time till a later time. Needless to say by the time I called her, she was hysterical.
I didn't comprehend your story until I realized that those were two southbound trains. It must of been depressing to find out what happened after just seing him.
From what I remember, the trip mechanism didn't stop the train because the track bed settled, i.e. the tripper was too low to stop the train.
Michael
Washington, DC
yea layton Gibson collided his J into the M. the headlines were as follows
"Motorman killed, 54 injured as J train rams M train"
Has the Metro North ever transfered any of its equipment from east of Hudson to west of Hudson, or vice versa?
If yes, how did they do that?
Don't know if MNRR does this - but the way to do it would be:
Hoboken to Meadowlans Maintenance Complex; MMC to NY Penn Station; continue over Hell Gate on Amtrak to the New Haven Line.
I have seen NJT trains in NY Penn Station with MNRR Comet cars in the consist, so I assume this is how it's done.
I think a few Shoreliner cab cars were transferred from the East to the West lines. So it was most likely done the reverse way. Or they could have come from the Hudson Line and gone down Amtrak's Upper West Side line into Penn Station.
Also MN purchased push-pull cars that have run exclusively on the West lines. These are pooled with NJT Comet cars.
The lower level of the 63rd St tubes allows for LIRR to enter Manhattan by that means. Assuming, these tubes are meant for LIRR to go to Grand Central, how would it get there? I'm sure it wouldn't converge with the MNRR. Would it use 3rd Ave?
The LIRR 63rd Street tube stretches from Sunnyside Yard (where connections are now being built to the main line and the Port Washington branch) under 41 Av in Queens, under the East River, to 2nd Av and 63rd Street. On the Manhattan side, a tunnel boring machine will be drilling a tunnel west bound and then southbound under Park Avenue. The LIRR's tracks will NOT merge with MNRR tracks, but will travel in a lower level under them.
The tunnelling contracts run for 37 months. That means the tunnel (but not terminal, tracks, signalling or anything else) will be completed by late 2005 or very early 2006.
I do not recall whether the LIRR GCT terminal will be next to lower level (100 series) MNRR platforms, or underneath them at a third (lower) level. My copy of the FEIS for this project is in a bx somewhere.
Consult www.mta.info and see if it's available online.
>>The tunnelling contracts run for 37 months. That means the tunnel (but not terminal, tracks, signalling or anything else) will be completed by late 2005 or very early 2006.<<
Early projections call for completion around 2010, some eight years from now. Let's see if that date is kept or not. Of course we all know that the bi-level coaches cannot operate to GCT, change at Jamaica !
Bill "Newkirk"
"I do not recall whether the LIRR GCT terminal will be next to lower level (100 series) MNRR platforms, or underneath them at a third (lower) level. My copy of the FEIS for this project is in a bx somewhere"
If it is another lower level (maybe the tracks will start with the # 200), that is going to be one heck of a project! Because now in addition to adding tracks, you are also expanding the "non-track" area of GCT!!! -Nick
It would join the MNRR at Park Avenue via a ramp at around 61st or 62nd St. It would use dedicated tracks because the 3rd rail used is different (MNRR uses underiding, LIRR uses overriding like the subway).
LIRR is creating it's own path to Grand Central Terminal.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
LIRR is creating it's own path to Grand Central Terminal.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Here's the MTA's brochure.
Thank you for posting that.
A poster had previously asked how the MTA will avoid disrupting train service through Sunnyside. The brochure states that a TBM will also be used, in addition to cut and cover work, on the Queens side under the yard.
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/mtapfalm.gif
What do those dots around midtown represent? Tram service?
Ah, you stumbled upon old plans for LIRR Extensions, originally the MTA wanted the to build a transportatiom station at 3rd Avenue and 42nd Street so that the Second Avenue Subway Line would be easier to get to then the Lexington Avenue line, so the people getting off at The Metropolitan Transit Station would walk to the S.A.S. instead of the congested Lex. The bottom line looks like what they want to do now, and Extend the LIRR to where the World Trade Center was, so u stumbled on a good extension plan there.
The LIRR terminal was to be at E. 48th Street & Third Avenue, not E. 42nd Street & Third Avenue.
David
Those plans seem to create the impression that MTA center at 48th and 3rd would be in the middle of it all. However, it is far from Grand Central, and really not in the heart of midtown at all. Why would they make something like that at this location?
What was there at the time? Where there development plans for the area around the proposed station site?
Don't know. Good point.
It looks like the wanted to run the LIRR over the Manhattan Bridge and onto the the Nassau Street line. That wouldn't even be considered now.
Since the Bronx is so Close to Queeens, would it not have made sense to built a subway line that connected the 2 boroughs (i'm sure the same argument can be used for a Brooklyn-SI Subway connection)? I live in the Bronx, but I go into Queens a lot to visit family and shop. It's such a pain the butt to go all the way into Manhattan to catch a Queens bound train. I'm pretty sure that many people would argue that the line would not be used as much, but I wouild disagree. You could connect it to the Astoria line and then to LaGuardia Airport and continue it out to Eastern Queens which is an area that is not served by any subway lines. If you could built the Bronx-Queens line, where would it begin-end, would it go into Manhattan? Would it be Express or local (or a combination of both)?
It would be great, but I don't see it being much of a priority.
I'd also love to see a Nassau-Westchester rail line, together with an Oyster Bay-Rye Tunnel, but I'm not holding my breath.
:-) Andrew
I don't see the priority for it.
Most people in the Bronx are going to Manhattan anyway. True the people in Staten Island would prefer going to Manhattan over Brooklyn. But New York Bay is a long stretch of water. Easier to go to Manhattan via Brooklyn.
An extension of the N across Flushing Bay to the Bronx would not be difficult to accomplish. That would offer riders direct access to astoria and LIC, and, wit a transfer, access to Jackson Heights, Corona, and Flushing. Even with the transfer, the ride would be quicker and less crowded than going through Manhattan.
Unfortunately, there's no room for it in the Capital Plan, and no one with political power advocating for it.
"Unfortunately, there's no room for it in the Capital Plan, and no one with political power advocating for it."
Given the densities of the areas it would serve, it would have also have a ridership that would make the G look crowded by comparison.
But the G has lousy connections. I think routing the 5 onto the N across the Bay is at least as reasonable as Robert Moses trying to build a bridge from New Rochelle to Oyster Bay. And if we really had a circumferential AND radial subway network, people might work and live in all four boroughs (assuming Staten Island is too big a tech. challenge). Imagine -- a real city.
The G line wa supposed to have a line continuing along Lafayette Ave after Bedfored/Nostrand. Not to mention a major transfer at Broadway for trains coming out of 2nd Avenue Manhattan. Look up the IND Second System proposals. If NYC had been able to build those lines, I could imagine a real city.
If we didn't have the depression of the 30s, all areas of the city would be covered by the subway except for some parts in Queens and Staten Island. I agree: Build the 2nd Ave line. Have two (maybe 3) lines running on it:
- train going from Kings Plaza, Brooklyn (along Flatbush Ave) to Utica Ave. Along Utica to Fulton St, then along Malcolm X Blvd to DeKalb Ave. Along Dekalb Ave to Bushwick Ave. Along Bushwick Ave to Montrose Ave. Along Meserole St to South 4th St (using the already built hull). Under the East River, connecting to the F line 2nd Ave station, then going north along 2nd Ave to 125th St terminal.
- train going from Whitehall St uptown to 72nd St. Along 72nd St (across East River) to 36th Ave. Along 36th Ave to 21st St. Along 21st St to Ditmars Blvd. Along Ditmars Blvd to La Guardia Airport.
- train going from Whitehall St uptown to the Bronx to Co-op City
Having these three lines built would help the City out in many, many ways.
I think routing the 5 onto the N across the Bay is at least as
reasonable as Robert Moses trying to build a bridge from New Rochelle to Oyster Bay.
That would be Rye to Oyster Bay. New Rochelle to Oyster Bay would be a long bridge (or tunnel), crossing as much east-west as north-south. Actually, even Rye to Oyster Bay is somewhat diagnal. The due north-south route across the sound would take you from Rye to Glen Cove, or Greenwich, CT to Oyster Bay, NY. But a diagnal route would be shorter due to the orientation of the sound.
If I were the King of New York I'd have not just one LI Sound crossing, but several: City Island-Kings Point Bridge (not much longer than the Throgs Neck), Pelham-Port Washington Bridge (NY 101), Glen Cove-Mamaroneck Bridge(NY 107), Oyster Bay-Rye Bridge (which would be part of I-86, with a new name, the Empire State Highway), Huntington-Stamford Tunnel, Kings Park-Norwalk Tunnel, Port Jefferson-Bridgeport Tunnel, Shoreham-New Haven Bridge (I-91), and maybe that crazy tristate crossing they proposed over the Block Island Sound, linking Orient Point, NY; Fishers Island, NY; Groton, CT; and Westerly, RI.
In the real world I'd settle for that Oyster Bay-Rye crossing, a tunnel if that's what it's gotta be. But I'm not holding my breath.
:-) Andrew
My memory just cleared (for the last time before I age and croak). My copy of "Power Broker" is at home, so I apologize. The south end of the bridge would have been on Sand Point. The uproar was -- well, you can imagine.
If I could have any say, I would certainly build a Rye to Oyster Bay crossing. Not only would it inclide a highway, it would also include a railway.
#3 West End Jeff
If I could have any say, I would certainly build a Rye to Oyster Bay crossing. Not only would it include a highway, it would also include a railway.
#3 West End Jeff
>> If I were the King of New York I'd have not just one LI Sound crossing, but several... <<
You'd have to be the King of New York *and* Connecticut to get all those crossings built. :)
You'd have to be the King of New York *and* Connecticut to get all those crossings built. :)
...and Rhode Island for that matter.
I'm up to the task!
:-) Andrew
Fred's Sea Beach to the Bronx? God help us all.
How about an intermediate stop at Riker's Island ;-)
"How about an intermediate stop at Riker's Island ;-)
"
With a platform marked "For Inmates/Employees Only"
I remember a time I was working the booth at Queens Plaza. I had a lady that came to the window crying and said:
"I left my son on Riker's Island!"
Rikers Island, eh? Well that holds a possibility. I could probably find a few of my childhood friends there.
Yes combine the N and the B ha ha ha
I hear an evil "ha ha ha" in there don't I?
That's Bob clarion call. You ought to see him perform in person. He belongs in the circus.
I never said shouldn't be in a circus. as the clown
An extension of the N across Flushing Bay to the Bronx would not be difficult to accomplish.
I think you mean over the East River.
Actually, I advocate an extension across Flushing Bay too, to serve College Point, Whitestone, and Bay Terrace, communities that would certainly use it (and relieve some of the overcrowding on the IRT.)
:-) Andrew
Is there any vacant trackage on the Hell of a gate bridge?
avid
I think the Federal regulations would kill that even if there were spare trackage, but no I don't think there is.
:-) Andrew
I think only 3 of the four tracks is in service. Two for passenger, one for freight?
Yes - that is the current configuration.
Once more, let's not here any more nonsense about extending the N into the Bronx. The Sea Beach is BMT and doesn't belong in the Bronx. Besides it's my train and that train in Brooklyn-Maanhattan Transit, with a little spur in Queens, and my train does not belong in the Bronx. It belongs on the Manny B.
I'm sure there's a few folks who would be happy to push a few of them up the north side of the bridge for ya. :)
"I think you mean over the East River. "
No, I mean over Flushing Bay. The line would continue to run directly north from Ditmars Blvd. Look at a map: http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm
That's still the East River. Flushing Bay begins a little to the east of there, and even if it went across part of Flushing Bay it would still have to cross the East River to get the The Bronx.
:-) Andrew
I've actually had a weird dream in which such a line really exists. In fact, base service was provided by either the 2 or - get this - the 3.
Not a bad idea but don't count on it. It is a good idea to bring a Bronx-Queens subway line but I wouldn't extend the N. I would build a new subway line from Co-op City/Bay Plaza to eastern Queens but I doubt a Bronx-Queens subway is in the works plus people have the Q44 as a limited(yes, I know its long) but i think its best at the moment.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Back in the day when the powers that be where deciding who to built the subway lines, the main idea was to have them go into Manhattan, since in the early 1900s, Manhattan was the center of commerce, not the outer boroughs. That is why the LIRR does not go north and south, only east and west.
If you really need a way to get into eastern Queens without going to Manhattan all the time, try taking the Q44 from the Bronx. You at least bypass Manhattan and go right into Flushing.
"If you really need a way to get into eastern Queens without going to Manhattan all the time, try taking the Q44 from the Bronx. You at least bypass Manhattan and go right into Flushing. "
Yes. There are always reasonable options in New York, though they might not involve a train.
Q44? Great number. I wore that on my baseball uniform during my last 20 years as a coach. The number can seen 14 times in my baseball trophy room. 44! Great number.
Yes especially for Reggie Jackson and the Yankees against the L>A> Dodgers, and remember 4444 on the N last month, your favorite numbers on the N train. For once you got lucky.
As they say old friend, I'd rather be lucky than good. But that 4444 was something special, wasn't it. Of course, I better not get too elated over it. Someone in the TA might be reading this and the next thing I know 4444 is on some other line. As for Reggie, that was really some feat and he is to be commended for his clutch hitting when it counted. Glad to hear you're feeling better.
Yep, three swings, three dingers. At least it enabled the Yankees to beat the Dodgers that year.
[You could connect it to the Astoria line and then to LaGuardia Airport and continue it out to Eastern Queens which is an area that is not served by any subway lines.]
From the western side of the Bronx, it's just as easy to go into Manhattan and transfer. I'd keep a new line to the east:
1. I'd start by having it intersect the #7 in Flushing.
2. North of Flushing, it would serve College Point, then under the Long Island Sound and up White Plains Road to meet the #6 at Parkchester and the #2 at Bronx Park East, then either up the Dyre Avenue Line or west on Fordham Road to 207th & Broadway.
3. South of Flushing, it would follow Main Street to Union Turnpike, then down Lefferts Blvd to the Belt, then into the Rockaway Line (perhaps to Rock Park in place of the shuttle).
3A. Alternately, it could follow Main Street to the LIE, then west to Queens Blvd, down Woodhaven, and swerve into the Rockaway Line at Aqueduct.
- - - - -
Of course, it would be far cheaper to just enhance existing bus service than to build this or any new subway line.
I ride the Subway often they seem to be more Redbirds on the 5 and 7 then regular. Almost anytime I take the line im in a redbird.
MTA is supporting the development with seed money.
Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-ligrab103000304nov11,0,1959203.story?coll=ny%2Dlinews%2Dheadlines
Maybe it's a thin line between a crackpot idea and a brilliant innovation. You judge which this is.
First consider the technical problems. Someth8ing which is buried in the roadway is subject to all the problems of environment (rain, snow, road salt, leaves, dirt, junk) plus its own inherent problems. Is that mesh going to get stuck in its holder as it gets older and frayed?
But in a broader sense--all the LIRR crossings are protected by well-maintained gates. This is already way more than your average road-crossing, which is protected by nothing more than traffic signals. People takes chances, defy lights, and get themselves and others creamed. Are we going to start going after these with butterfly nets?
If someone is that intent on violating the law and common sense to defeat crossing gates, they will also defeat the nets by simply driving around them.
"Maybe it's a thin line between a crackpot idea and a brilliant innovation. You judge which this is."
That remains to be seen. I don't want to discourage people from trying new ideas, but whether or not this actualy works is an open question.
"First consider the technical problems. Someth8ing which is buried in the roadway is subject to all the problems of environment (rain, snow, road salt, leaves, dirt, junk) plus its own inherent problems. Is that mesh going to get stuck in its holder as it gets older and frayed?"
These are all good questions, and must be answered before such a device is used widely.
I agree with you that the LIRR gate crossings are much better than most others - four-quadrant gates, extra lights overhead, bell continues ringing after gate arms drop, etc.
"Are we going to start going after these with butterfly nets?"
Kevlar is much more than a butterfly net. These nets are still used today on aircraft carriers to stop a 100,000 pound airplane going 150 mph in 2 seconds. They are deployed when the airplane's tail hook malfunctions. So that part of the idea is very realistic.
If you are not secured with a seatbelt, the kevlar net will likely cause a significant injury to you when your car is stopped by it - but what chance of living would you have when a consist of M1s collides with you at 80 mph?
"If someone is that intent on violating the law and common sense to defeat crossing gates, they will also defeat the nets by simply driving around them. "
Possibly, although if deployed properly, the net may be set to react to you (ie you wouldn't see it until it was draped over your car). But I don't know enough about the deployment options for this device.
>>> MTA is supporting the development with seed money. <<<
Interesting, and technically feasible, but cost effectiveness comes into account to prevent it from being used everywhere there are crossing gates. After all, how many crossing accidents occur each year where an automobile breaks through closed crossing gates?
Tom
I agree with you, Tom. A lot of open questions here. I'm glad, though, that MTA saw fit to try this. The investment was $850,000, and I think that's money well spent, whatever the outcome. We will have learned something.
To the List:
The last time I posted this inquiry, the thread wandered off the Never-Never Land, so let me try again:
The last count I have (October 29) shows 8236 as the highest number in passenger service, and 8260 highest number delivered at ENY.
Anyone have anything higher either way?
Also, FYI the Siemens prototype train (8205-8212) will be testing along the Sea Beach Line during late November and much of December.
Suggest you watch the middle iron from New Utrecht to Avenue U.
Testing may conducted any day of the week, including weekends.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
>>Also, FYI the Siemens prototype train (8205-8212) will be testing along the Sea Beach Line during late November and much of December.<<
Any idea how the Siemens set differs from the other R-143s ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Gents,
rumour has it that the Central Line will again be using an 8 car set of 1959/62 tube stock for this seasons rail treatment duties on the open sections of line.
The unit (outer cars fitted with ATP equipment) is formed:
1406-2406-9125-1681+1682-2682-treatment car-1407.
.
all unpainted cars except treatment car which is red white and blue and does not currently carry its number (9459)displayed.
.
Do any readers have times of when this runs ???
.
REGARDS
rob -()-
Going back to MTA planning, a map showing the 2nd Ave subway project {I believe it is plan 132A on the site} mentions moving of the Canarise line south of Bway Junction. Where would it have gone if it ever happened? Also, rumor says that part of the line may be dismantled. I highly doubt that.
Also, rumor says that part of the line may be dismantled. I highly doubt that.
Part of the line is being dismantled at Atlantic Ave. That station will go from a three platform, six trackway, two seperate elevated structure station, to a one platform, two track station. The entire el structure over Snediker Avenue, and the current Manhattan bound platform and track will be entirely dismantled and removed. They are currently realigning the Manhattan bound track through there so it will soon used the unused trackway on the current Queens-bound platform. The center platform will also be removed. Actually, there was not too much left of it about two weeks ago when I was there.
And the way things are going, it looks like the weekend of NYD-ERA's Redbird fantrip will be the last weekend that the old alignment will be in service -- and we expect that the fantrip train will use it!
Yet another reason to...BE THERE!
(see the Upcoming Events section of nycsubway.org for details -- remember, your ticket order must be postmarked by this Friday to get the $45 rate; after that it goes to $55)
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Was there ever a plan or qusai talks to put the line in the below grade cut.
The one that parallels the Canarsie line.
avid
Yes, avid. Back in the early '70's when the Bay Ridge LIRR cut was rarely in use, the NYCTA considered reconfiguring the Canarsie Line by placing it in the cut. This would've rendered the ENTIRE Canarsie Elevated section obsolete. The line would've diverged right after Wilson Avenue (the closest point at grade with the Bay Ridge Line).
It would've also left the 14th Street-Canarsie Line somewhat with a strange name, because the plan was to use the Bay Ridge all the way to Bensonhurst where the line meets up with the Sea Beach (near 10th Avenue). Furthermore, Canarsians felt betrayed by this plan as their new station would be located at Rockaway Avenue near Linden Boulevard neccesitating a bus connection (extension of the B-42) to get them home (the Bay Ridge crosses at Rockaway Ave. on a point closer to Brownsville than Canarsie).
Neighborhood opposition as well as financial considerations killed this bold plan. I'm sure part of the problem involved dealings with the LIRR who owned the line at the time (as is the case today).
Interesting. Is the ROW 4 trackways wide all the way from the ENY tunnel to Bay Ridge? I'm only familiar with the other side of the ENY tunnel. If it is, it would not have messed up the Freight operations either. You would have 2 tracks for the L, and one or two tracks for the freight.
It's too bad that plan didn't take hold. Although it would have inconvenienced Canarsie riders by about 4 or 5 blocks, the benefits of this would have been great. A whole part of Brooklyn that has no subway service would have gotten it. The line would have skirtted along Avenue D, connected with the Flatbush Spur at Brooklyn College, and then connected all 5 former BMT lines in Brooklyn, and made a midway transfer, instead of having to go all the way to Coney Island to switch lines. Canarsie riders bound for Lower Manhattan may have actually benefited from the extension because they then had a second option into Manhattan, instead of just the current L line. They could have taken the "Bay Ridge L line" to the 2/5 transfer, or any of the other BMT els/cuts and transfering to those trains instead of taking the 14th Street route.
You're points are the same made in the report -- by having the 14th St.- Canarsie Line running on the Bay Ridge, it would have tied together all of the north/south running BMT-IND lines as well as connecting (via transfer) to the 2/5 at Brooklyn College. As well, with the line down in the cut by East New York, there was a provision in the report for a FREE TRANSFER to the New Lots Avenue Line at Livonia Ave. & Junius Streets (no need for that long walkway at between the two lines as is today).
The Bay Ridge branch is four tracks wide at MOST locations. I believe it narrows down to two tracks behind the homes in Midwood (westbound from Brooklyn College). But that does not last and the dual track configuration MAY be a fairly recent creation...
As well, with the line down in the cut by East New York, there was a provision in the report for a FREE TRANSFER to the New Lots Avenue Line at Livonia Ave. & Junius Streets (no need for that long walkway at between the two lines as is today).
It would have made the connection there a bit easier if the L was in the Bay Ridge Cut.
But what amazes me even with the current L configuration and about a possible connection at Junius/Livonia between the L and the 3 is that when they decided to close one of the entrances at the Junius Street station, they closed the one closer to the L line, and kept the one further away open. They have since even removed the stairways. The mezzanine is still there, although completely boarded up. If they would have left that fare control area open and closed the other one insteadm they would have had a fairly simple job at connecting the L to the 3. The now out of fare control walkway over the Bay Ridge line could have become an in system area, connecting the two lines.
Of course the L in the Bay Ridge cut would have made it even easier. But it seems like no planning was thought of when they did things years ago. Closing the actual "Junius Street" entrance to the Junius Street station was dumb in my opinion. The current open mezzanine should have been the one they closed.
And the way things are going, it looks like the weekend of NYD-ERA's Redbird fantrip will be the last weekend that the old alignment will be in service
Really?!? Well, that's gonna be the first stop during my annual Thanksgiving Week railfanning trip. Thanks for the tip!
--Mark
Today is Veteran's Day. Due to a recently passed New York State law veterans in state employ are entitiled to a day off with pay.
Henece the reason that I am making this post at 2 in the afternoon.
I just want to say thank you to my fellow vets and especially to those that were injured or disabled. We share a continuity and a heritage with all those who have worn there country's uniform starting with the Minutemen and the Continental Army. The great heros of World War II are leaving us at the rate of 1000 a day. The men and women who served in a thankless war in Vietnam and those of the unfinished Gulf War deserve our gratitude. Because they served no enemy has ever vanquished us.
Abraham Lincoln said it best when he remarked that "all the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined could not by force make a trak in the Blue Ridge (Mountains) or take a drink from the Ohio (River)."
He could say this because of the courage and fortitude of our military personnel, men and now increasingly women.
So best wishes and good fortune to those of those of you who have served your country and may God Bless you and keep you.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Sergeant
United States Air Force
1968-1972
Amen.
Well said. I didn't have the opportunity to serve - Uncle Sam stamped my draft card 4 F and told me to go home - but my older daughter and her husband are both veterans of the Gulf War era. To all of you we extend our thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on a warship in the Gulf!
Yeah... The Gulf of Tonkin!
A special thanks to all the Veterans out there.
Thanks
Philip Hom, MSgt, USAF (Retired)
1972-1993
The SMEE era - golden oldies.
Phil: I see that you came in to the AF the same time that I went out. We still had TAC,MAC and SAC in those days, as well as another major command known as AFCS. Now AFCS is gone, SAC and TAC were replaced by ACC and MAC is AMC. Things certainly have changed.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry
I'm now a civilian working FOR the USAF at Bolling/Pentagon. And to think I couldn't wait to punch out back in 92 (finally did it in 93).
Phil Hom
The Smee Era - golden Oldies.
Phil: I was lucky enough to be stationed in England about forty miles outside of London so I was able to ride the Underground as well as British Rail. After that I was stationed near Madrid so I was able to ride their subway system and see the last days of there streetcar lines. (Early 1972).
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
The first two years were bland. USAF Tech school was in Denver (buses stopped running after 10PM) and a tour on the former US island of Okinawa. The only railfanimg while in Okinawa was a 90 day temp duty to Taiwan (narrow gauge EMD diesel and steam), plus a R&R trip to Hong Kong. I got all of my Nikons in Okinawa.
Another change of assignment took me to Fort Worth (see my Fort Worth Tandy Subway photos), then back to the Pacific to Korea (more EMD diesels and the Seoul Subway) and on to Southern California (Cajon Pass railfanning and photographing RTD buses). I later took a special assignment which took me back yo New York City for six years.
With 12 years down, I left New York City to return to Southern California with a wife and kids (It was hard to railfan San Francisco pushing a stroller and having a heavy Nikon around the neck). My only tour of Europe followed, with a three year working vacation in Pisa Italy, with a two week temp duty to Madrid (TJ) to help close the base by moving its asset by air. Also drove to RAF Welford for a 10 day vacation and also stayed at the Union Jack Club (guest must be a member of any uniformed services regardless of country) across from the Waterloo Train station where I parked my "Yank Tank" to get it off the street. Plus a few trips up to Germany and stayed at the Armed Forces Recreation Center.
Final tour was in Holloman AFB New Mexico, where once in a while new RTS buses to the west coast drove by the main gate on its way to I-10 in El Paso. Not much railfaning there, but I finished my Master in business in my off time.
I retired at age 40 and moved back east to DC.
While during my 21 years I did not engage in any action, I support my command in chief (Nixon to Clinton) and stood by in case I'm needed. Yes there were training scheduling problems or unable to take a class I needed, but it was worth doing the 20+. It is estimated only 10 percent of the population ever serve more than 90 days of active duty, but those 10 percent defended the remaining 90 percent.
Phil Hom
The SMEE era - Classic subway
(Yes this is transit related. I got alot of transit photographs during my USAF career.)
Larry, to celebrate Veteran's Day I took my son to the Cradle of Aviation Museum by the Nassau Coliseum. I live only 2 miles away from it and yet didn't even know it was completed!! I really recommend it, especially since you were in the Air Force. The only negative thing: No R-9's!!
B-17 are the closest (in age) to the R-9.
Jeff: Thanks for the tip. I've been to the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio. I'll plan a trip out to Nassau and maybe even ride the LIRR. Your right. We didn't have any R-9's but we did have the B-52 "Stratofortress", KC-135 "Stratotanker", F-4 "Phantom and the B-58 "Hustler" the first supersonic bomber not to mention that magnificent experiment the XB-70 "Valkyrie."
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I thought the F-4 Phantom was a Navy plane.
When I was at the late Homestead Air Force Base, they were flying B-52's, KC-135's, and F-100's and F-104's. Homestead had been a SAC base until three MiG-21's flew over Florida and part of Georgia taking pictures of our build-up for the invasion of Cuba in October, 1962. A SAC wing was replaced by a TAC wing (the F's) at Homestead, and Key West NAS brought in some F-4's so the Rooskies couldn't repeat their wake-up call.
I was part of the invasion force staging in Fort Stewart, GA, to provide combat intelligence support to the First Armored Division. I guess the Rooskies have a photo of the top of my helmet.
The B-52's and F-104's were awesome!
The F-4 served in both the Navy and the Air Force.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The F-4 served in both the Navy and the Air Force.
Thanks for the info, Larry. I'm still not too old to learn something.
The F-4 was originally developed as a Navy plane by McDonnell. The aircraft became operational in 1958 or 1959. The Air Force realized (or was bullied by DoD) that the airplane was suitable for Air Force service. The reverse is often not true, however: an F-104, for example, would not have survived the modifications needed for carrier duty (undercarriage, tailhook, etc.)
The F-4B was the first real production airplane to see action, and, due to the Navy thinking of the time, carried no gun (a pure missile carrier). The F-4C and F-4D, and F-4E were Air Force versions; the F-4J was a Navy version (essentially an F-4B with leading-edge dogfight slats).
If I recall correctly, it was the F-4B that Navy pilot Cunningham and his RIO Bill Driscoll flew in the Vietnam War's most famous dogfight - the shootdown of North Vietnam's Colonel Tomb, an fighter ace in his own right.
The last version of the F-4 to see service was the F-4G Wild Weasel, used in the Gulf War and then retired. It's function was taken over by the EA-6B Prowler; that airplane is now being retired as the EA-18 takes over.
>>> The B-52's and F-104's were awesome! <<<
The B-52's are still awesome. The AB Standards of the Air Force.
Tom
Did you see that HUGE Peacekeeper Rail Garrison boxcar? 8 axles and an ICBM to go.
One is on display at Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton Ohio.
Phil Hom
The SMEE era - Classic subway.
Thanks,
Steve Loitsch
Fire Controlman First Class
1990-2002
and soon to be US Coast Guard
Best Wishes to you Steve and Good Luck
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, I figure I had 12 years of being a deep water sailor, now that I have a family its time to be a "puddle pirate" as we used to call them, so I can be around my daughter and son more. Besides I can get back up north (NY/CT) as God intended!!
Steve
>>> I had 12 years of being a deep water sailor <<<
Heh Heh, you just know they will assign you to an Alaskan ice breaker, or possibly trans Atlantic plane guard.
Tom
Thanks,
Steve Loitsch
Fire Controlman First Class, USN
1990-2002
and soon to be US Coast Guard
Thank you for your service.
I've had the pleasure and privilege of working together with various military services as a member of a Disaster Medical Assistance Team.
We couldn't do it without you!
Alright, we went from a 1 train with a caboose, the 34th Street shuttle el, the destruction of Queensboro Plaza, crazy track alignments on the Brighton Line, and now here's the next one, two odd photos, that look to be the destruction of some kind of railroad structure.
This one I have no clue about, or where to start. I'm thinking from the first photo that it may be in the Bronx. There is an el in the backround. Maybe the removal of some part of the NYW&B? I have no clue, so where do you guys think this is, and what is happening in this photo?
From the age of the autos, I think it's the demolition of the viaduct portion of the Third Avenue el in the Bronx, which did not come down easily.
Where was the viaduct portion of the old 3rd Ave El? Why did they have it on a viaduct and not an el?
If it's any help, the car parked on the left side of the lower picture appears to be an Oldsmobile, or possibly a Buick, from the early to middle 1960's, say 1962 to 1966. That might help date the picture.
It's either 2 things:
1. The demolition of the 3rd Ave. shuttle. The cars look too old for this, and B & W photography wasn't the norm by 1974.
or
2. The destruction of the Polo Grounds Shuttle.
I'll go with #2.
If this is the NYW&B line, I'd say it was around the area of E180 to E174 Sreets.
This is Old 9th Ave El line that used to Jerome Ave El on #4 line back in early 60's.
DNJ
Where on the 9th Ave El would that be?
This is Old 9th Ave El line that used to Jerome Ave El on #4 line back in early 60's.
DNJ
I think its the demolition of the Jerome/Anderson Avenue station on the 9th Ave El in the Bronx.
Very possible. David Coolist suggested this also. So this would make the location at the point just south of the junction of the Jerome El and the 9th Ave El. I would assume that is the Jerome El in the backround of the first photo then?
Thats the Woodlawn in the background, The white building is Concourse Village, the area to the right is Macoombs (spelling) Dam Park to the right,circa 2002, if you walk up the block the "Stub" is still there, along with the structure that used to support the tracks.
Go to Forgotten NY page http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/9thavel/9Ave.html and scroll about halfway down to the picture with the caption: This view of the Anderson/Jerome station, from a different angle, was taken in 1966. It's pretty much the same location and scene.
No doubt there anymore. Those photos are taken from almost the same angle!
Mystery 100% solved.
By the way, does anyone know what street that is? Is it 167th? When I was a teen in the late 60's I worked as a vendor at Yankee Stadium and parked on 167. I don't recall any structure except the very small stub coming out of the el on River Av.
I believe that's 163rd Street.
--Mark
Possibly the destruction of the old connection between the NYW&B at 180th St. and AMTRAK, only recently destroyed.
Bob Sklar
I figure with all the off-topic stuff being posted lately, one more won't hurt. And at least this one's not likely to be too controversial, not like the political ones.
Anyway, take the quiz!
If anyone's interested, I got 11 out of 16 correct.
I too got 11 out of 16----the last four that were grouped together through me----
Hey Pete : I didn't know that you took pictures of us on sub-talk day up at Branford.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey Larry, which picture is yours?
I got a 14 out of 16! That is if anyone cares.....
Actually I got 14 out of 16 also - I was surprised I got that many.
15 out of 16!
I got all of em.
:D
I had exactly eight wrong!
What is a passing grade?
Not having to pay palimony I guess. :)
A passing grade? That depends on your disappointment or elation level when your "date" for the evening turns out differently from what you expected.
I got a pathetic 9 out of 16 right. I guess I'm easily fooled. But at least I picked out a real female when it actually mattered. I mean, I even have a child by her!
:-) Andrew
Peter, you're right about one thing - it is really, really stupid. But it's much better than reading about a bunch or railfans' political opinions :-)!!!
How about a quiz with pictures of men and pick out which ones are normal and which ones are foamers !
Bill "Newkirk"
We're still getting them developed ... be patient. :)
Is there a difference?
Yes, yes it is. :o)
It makes me wonder why women (persons who are biologically female) make themselves up to look like drag queens.
That's why rule number one in New York dating has ALWAYS been "check da beaver for a kickstand" ... :)
Holy Christ-
I only got 9 out of 16...
Help *L*
Here's my help, J-Train-Tony. At the end of a date, just relax and enjoy it.
Gee, THANKS *LMFAO*
PLUS, a couple of the shemales looked better than some of the the females---but don't get me wrong here.
Watch 24 at 9:00 Eastern on Fox, pay close attention to Elisha Cuthbert, and you'll do much better next time.
It's all in the Adam"s Apple. That is the way to tell.
If the MTA does build the 2nd Avenue Subway, and they go ahead with the 2-track plan, most likely this new line won't have many station stops. Instead, it will only parallel the Lexington Express stops, which is why I consider this to be a semi-express if this particular plan goes through.
But here is my question..will there be connections (meaning tunnels) at each 2nd Avenue Subway to connect with the Lexington lines, so passengers can switch to a regular local train? If the MTA doesn't do this, they should at least offer a free metrocard transfer. -Nick
I doubt they'll only have the express stops only. It's more likely to have duplicate stops of the Lexington Avenue Local in order to ease crowding allowing more of a choice. Connections to the 63, 60, and 53 Street Tunnels are a must.
"But here is my question..will there be connections (meaning tunnels) at each 2nd Avenue Subway to connect with the Lexington lines, so passengers can switch to a regular local train?"
No.
The plan is at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sas_stations.htm.
Unfortunatley the link leads here:
"Welcome to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority Website!
We have recently updated our site. The file you requested is no longer at its old location.
Please select the agency in which you are interested by clicking on its name, above, or simply wait to be taken automatically to our homepage."
I just tried the link again, and it works for me. Do you use AOL by some chance? Maybe it's one of their infamous caching issues.
No, definitely don't use AOL. I did figure out the problem though. Your proper punctuation at the end of the sentence, the period, messed me up. (Your English teacher would be proud).
So anyone trying the link, make sure you don't copy and paste the period at the end of the sentence/link, when pasting the link.
Thank you for the information..I'll have to take a look at those plans. -Nick
According to official MTA documents from the early 1970's, these are the projected Manhattan stations for the 2nd Ave Line, going from south to north. (The list is also on this site at http:\\www.nycsubway.org\ind\2ndave\2ave-tr.gif)
Whitehall Street
Pine/Wall Streets
Chatham Square
Grand Street
Houston Street
14th Street
23rd Street
34th Street
48th Street
57th Street
72nd Street
86th Street
96th Street
105th Street
125th Street
A few comments:
1) I don't see a 42nd Street station on the list but I have to assume that one will be built. I can't imagine a north-south line without a 42nd Street stop. It would serve the UN very nicely.
2) There does not appear to be a 63rd Street stop. Instead, there is to be turnoff tracks north of 57th Street that will connect with the 63rd Street tunnel.
3) There are no stops anywhere in the East 60s. Maybe this serves to minimize disruption of street traffic coming on/off the Queensboro Bridge ramps/approaches from East 57 to East 62 Streets.
The 63rd Street stop on the 2nd Av line already exists. The first operating segment of the line will turn west through the 63rd Street line's bellmouth and proceed to Lexington Av/63rd Street, where a free transfer to the F train is offered.
Also note that a stop at 116th Street is now approved.
Glad to hear about 116th Street. It's only fair for the people who live there.
I know this has been discussed before, but I still don't understand the absense of a 79th Street station. It's only one more stop, and the other lines have a stop either there or right near there. Moreover, the absense is particularly surprising, given the political pull of many of the upscale residents who reside at that location.
That's the Lexington Avenue station on the 63rd Street Line. There never was a planned 63rd Street station on the Second Avenue Line. What's under E. 63rd Street at that point is the beginning of an unfinished, massive interchange.
David
You are correct. The 63rd street station is intended for the Stubway - the 2nd-Av-Broadway Express service which will be the first operating segment. Passengers will transfer to the F, if they desire, to go down Sixth Av or to go out to Queens.
Interesting list, Mitch. I'm sure we'll see 42nd street get approved as well. -Nick
With all the doomsaying coming from the MTA about budget deficits and the possibility of a fare hike, I can't believe that any kind of work is going on with respect to the 2nd Ave line. Not even studies.
Anyone know anything?
I believe the Manhattan Borough President is contiuing to fight for the building of it. It was one of her "promises" during her campaign.
Jeez, is that it? The Manhattan BP? There's no real power in the boro presidencies any more.
Looks like its a dead duck again.
Where have you been the last five years that this has been playing out? On a desert island somewhere with no TV, radio newspapers or Subtalk?
Right here. That's why I'm asking. I thought things were stirring but now with the papers being full of bad MTA news these days, I was just wondering.
OK.
It's all Posturing, the Second Ave Subway will get built. How long though I can only guess.
"It's all Posturing, the Second Ave Subway will get built"
I agree, there is no way they can't build this line. Perhaps the politicians should try to ride the Lex and 7th Avenue Lines during rush hour, and then they'll see why this is necessary.
"How long though I can only guess."
I don't know. But I hope as the bid pushes on for the 2012 Olympics, perhaps the city will add it in favor of being the international winner. -Nick
"Perhaps the politicians should try to ride the Lex and 7th Avenue Lines during rush hour, and then they'll see why this is necessary."
The 7th Avenue line? We're now pitching Second Avenue to relieve congestion on the OTHER side of the park?
Well, both lines are heavily congested during the rush hour, only difference is that the Lex line is more crowded during non rush-hours. True, walking from 7th avenue to 2nd avenue takes a little while, but you never know how many New Yorkers would have the energy to do it...especially on a nice day. -Nick
Currently they don't seem to have the energy to even walk to CPW.
Arti
Why should we walk the extra ten minutes to CPW, only to have to put up with poor transfer points? (Many of us have to transfer, you know.) It's not like the IRT local is running at even close to capacity -- it's scheduled for 12-15 tph.
If I need the IND and the weather's decent, I'll walk to CPW. If I need to transfer to the BMT or the shuttle at Times Square, I'll take the IRT, thank you very much.
Well the 2nd Ave subway would take some of the pressure off the 7th Ave line, if it continued into the Bronx. A passenger who works in Lower Manhattan and commutes from the Bronx, would then be able to take avoid the crowded 7th ave lines, or Lex lines. That's how it could also lesson crowds on the 7th Ave line. Although I believe the Lex line is more crowded than the 7th ave line, the 7th Ave line is also very crowded considering that the CPW line is also nearby, wheras the Les is the only line. Although the CPW line is much more inconvenient than the IRT. I avoid the 8th Ave line if I can, the service is bad, or at least worse than the IRT West side line, and the stations are not near where most people want to go, and I rarely have a short wait at the CPW local stations.
I avoid the 8th Ave line if I can, the service is bad, or at least worse than the IRT West side line,
The 8th avenue local service has at least 25tph on the local alone during rush hours. "A" service while not as frequent as 1/9 service is much faster, and "C" service is somewhat quicker too (the wait could nullify that though). B/D service provides west side access for Woodlawn riders. Let's also keep in mind that a B division train can carry substantially more people than an 'A' division train.
...and the stations are not near where most people want to go,
Port Authority Bus terminal, Madison Sq. garden, Columbus Circle, Fulton St, W4th st and to a lesser extent, the connection to the Times Sq. complex are all "places people want to go." It's also the closest line to the Javits Center right now.
...and I rarely have a short wait at the CPW local stations.
That's one negative, especially after the Bridge closure made "B" service even worse. CPW local stations are a little bad, but they don't have it as bad as other lines...
"The 8th avenue local service has at least 25tph on the local alone during rush hours."
Try 13 on CPW. According to the published MTA schedules, 7 Bs and 6 Cs. The E has 15 tph, but that doesn't serve the upper west side, which was the context of the discussion.
Try 13 on CPW. According to the published MTA schedules, 7 Bs and 6 Cs. The E has 15 tph, but that doesn't serve the upper west side, which was the context of the discussion.
Sorry, I was talking about 8th av, not CPW. Doesn't the C have 8tph anyway?
E trains have been operating 18tph during rush hours since the 63rd st connector opened. There are the extras from 179th st.
"Sorry, I was talking about 8th av, not CPW. Doesn't the C have 8tph anyway?"
But the post you were responding to was talking about CPW.
The MTA schedule says 6 C tph southbound in the morning rush. I believe it's more northbound.
E trains have been operating 18tph during rush hours since the 63rd st connector opened. There are the extras from 179th st."
Actually, it's 12 from Parsons and 3 from Hillside.
Try 13 on CPW. According to the published MTA schedules, 7 Bs and 6 Cs. The E has 15 tph, but that doesn't serve the upper west side, which was the context of the discussion.
Correct, Maybe I wasn't completely clear in my original post, but I did mean CPW, not the midtown section of the 8th Ave line. I did interchange CPW and 8th Ave a few times, I can see how my point may have been misunderstood.
"A" service while not as frequent as 1/9 service is much faster, and "C" service is somewhat quicker too (the wait could nullify that though). Let's also keep in mind that a B division train can carry substantially more people than an 'A' division train.
That was my point, the wait for some reason seems longer on 8th Ave, that would cancel out the fact that the A or C may be faster. The 8th Ave/CPW line is not a bad line, and is no doubt necessary, but I prefer the IRT West Side Line.
Port Authority Bus terminal, Madison Sq. garden, Columbus Circle, Fulton St, W4th st and to a lesser extent, the connection to the Times Sq. complex are all "places people want to go."
Basically, the same places the IRT West Side Line goes also. I never said it was an un-necessary line, only less convenient than the West Side IRT.
When it went in, the Eigth Ave. line made some sense as a replacement for the Ninth Ave. el, especially south of Columbus Circle. North of there, the fact the line runs along CPW takes away 50 percent of the potential riders from the area, though if you're going to Central Park, the Museum or the Hayden on a weekend it is convienent. And to be fair, it does access to areas between 86th and 125th and north of 168th that are not right near easily accessable to the IRT West Side line.
The Sixth Ave. line was the IND route that served no rational purpose when built, other than to take passengers away from the neighboring BMT and (to a lesser extent) the IRT to make Mayor Hylan happy. Given all the underground obsticles along the way between Ninth and 34th streets, the cost would have been lower, and the city better served in the long run, if the Eighth Ave. and Second Ave. lines had been the main routes for the original IND construction.
They should build back a 4 track el. it is more cost effective than tunneling. But then the complaints will start about not having any sun light and the noise, but I am sure the merchants will like the extra business they may gain. but logic does not always prevail. what do I know we just pay tax's and fare increases
Is this the 1970's all over again? Man I knew I should of kept my afro.
It can't really be dead "again" considering that it was never alive.
Wasn't there study money allocated for it recently?
Refer to my post, and ignore Peter. :0)
"With all the doomsaying coming from the MTA about budget deficits and the possibility of a fare hike, I can't believe that any kind of work is going on with respect to the 2nd Ave line. Not even studies. "
People can doomsay whatever they want. Acvtivities (studies, engineering, construction, whatever) which are already funded and for which contracts have been let are performed according to those contracts. Funding whicvh has been approved by the FTA is disbursed as per contract. Projects approved in the Capital Plan generaly either have complete funding (the money is contractually there regardless of how long it actually takes to spend the money) or5 partial funding.
Projects like the rebuild of Jamaica Station or Stillwell Av or the LIRR's Atlantic Av station ($400 million each) will be completed because their funding has already been appropriated. East Side Access, a $4.3 billion project, is underway now. The work leading up to this point was done in stages, because each previous Capital Plan paid for only a portion of it. Whatever was paid for, was done.
The doomsaying refers to future annual fiscal years and appropriations which we want, but are have not been legislated or released by the administrative agencies controlling the money. And doomsaying is opinion and speechmaking, not legislation.
Whatever was appropriated for Second Av in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan will be spent. That may mean that construction will begin in 2004, and will last as long as the funding specifies. The 2005-2009 Capital Plan will likely continue construction, but how fast is an open question. The 2012 Olympic Bid may be helpful to this (I have been skeptical about that but events could change my mind).
Please note that the reverse is true also - optimistic chest-beating about a new subway means nothing if the project is not approved in the Capital Plan.
Sounds all well and good, but it sounds like this play has been played many times already for the 2nd Ave subway. In the 70's construction also started - look how far they got since then. I hope it's not true, and history won't repeat itself, but time has not been too kind on the 2nd Ave Subway in the past. They have been trying to build it since the 30's.
"Sounds all well and good, but it sounds like this play has been played many times already for the 2nd Ave subway."
So what? The Chunnel has a similar history.
"In the 70's construction also started - look how far they got since then."
It got far enough so that MTA will be using those tunnel segments. That saves time and money today. It's silly to complain about that.
The Second Avenue is funded right up to the point where they start digging a few holes. By that time, additional federal and state funding will either be in place, or it will not be. My guess is no. They'll use all kinds of excuses, but the fact will be that the money has already gone elsewhere.
There is enough need for, and support for, the Second Avenue Subway, however, that no one will dare to declare it "dead." It will merely become "undead," neither really alive nor officially expired. That can go on for years. Or decades.
or as it will be in 27 years, centuries
("There is enough need for, and support for, the Second Avenue Subway, however, that no one will dare to declare it "dead." It
will merely become "undead," neither really alive nor officially expired. That can go on for years. Or decades.")
Or until the next election....see what happens in 2 years, and again in 4 years.....
Maybe some of my great great great great great great great grandchildren will one day get a chance to ride the 2nd Ave Subway.
By the time it gets built, I'm sure we will have sufficiently evolved that we will no longer need a subway. Just punch in some numbers on your wristpad and you'll be there already. :)
By the time it gets built, I'm sure we will have sufficiently evolved that we will no longer need a subway. Just punch in some numbers on your wristpad and you'll be there already. :)
via the Joseph L Bruno Teleportation Center ;-) Beam me up Joe....
How'd ya know? The boy got his start running his own phone company called "Coradian" ... which strangely equipped every office in the capitol ... it went under. So yeah, wouldn't be surprised. :)
The funding process for new construction is much better today than it was in the 1970's. If you fund a project, it gets built, or at least it gets moved along. Building subways in the 1970's was a disorganized haphazard thing. (And yet, some things did get done).
At any rate, we owe both the $$$ investment and the Capital Plan process itself for the completion of the Archer Av and 63rd Street projects, as well as the extensive station rehabs both already accomplished and going on right now.
"It will merely become "undead," neither really alive nor officially expired. That can go on for years. Or decades."
It's interesting that you work for an agency and don't understand its funding process very well...atre you sure you wouldn't be happier in a private sector job? You complain about it enough...
So long as funding is present in the Capital Plan, the ESA project and the Second Av project will move ahead.
I won't claim expertise here, but one thing I *can* tell you is that New York doesn't follow the rules, one of the reasons why the feds are reluctant to fund this state. There is a difference in NYS between "allocated" and "ENCUMBERED" funds. And even when funds are "encumbered" they can be "recaptured." All technical terms to be sure, but if the legislature deems it so, even cash in the bank can be "recaptured."
What I don't know is the status of the various bits of funding for SAS. Anything "allocated" is already gone, funds that are "encumbered" require more diddling to call back, but even those aren't necessarily set in stone, though they're certainly more "firm" than "allocated." Federal money can only be used for the purpose for which it was granted, matching funds can be toyed with in the manner of IOU's by the state. Financial hijinx is what this state's governance has always specialized in ... "find the queen, find the queen, find the queen" ...
So what it comes down to is what funding is "allocated", which is "encumbered" and which has actually been "disbursed" ... anyone know?
My guess, just based on reading the papers and not based on detailed knowledge of the technical terms, is that as long as no contract has been signed with a vendor, a government organization can always decide not to spend the money.
As I mentioned in another post, even if the money is already "there", the 30 years of interest payment may not be there, and so a budget crunch might cause a government not to spend capital funds as long as they can avoid being sued over it.
I've done bidding and contracts for the state - if you follow these things, contracts are broken up into pieces and "let out to bid" in pieces. Digging is one contract, pouring cement another, HVAC and electrical are separate, etc. When equipment is ordered, there's the main order, option orders, and all contracts have escape clauses. This is why so few vendors will bother bidding on government contracts because getting paid or getting the full contract completed is a crap shoot. Contractually, once you LET the contract, you're usually committed and the vendor is wise to get as much built as is possible since there is a requirement of payment for work actually performed.
That said though, it's a slipknot. :)
Just as a confirmation for all here - I'm NOT saying the Second Avenue Subway is dead by any means, I'm merely indicating how the state could back out of it if budgetary constraints require them to do so. Contracts are not necessarily contracts and budgets are not necessarily budgetted until the checks are cashed. Just wanted to let folks know that I'm NOT saying it's dead ... but it could be ...
I think the only contracts so far have been for design and engineering, not construction. The groundbreaking has been "promised" for calendar year 2004, so everybody has most of 2003 to decide whether that date slips or not.
It is interesting to note that the original project was suspended in 1975, but construction on the East Harlem segments was still going on well into 1978.
Correct. Contracts for construction have not yet been let, though there is line item money in the current Capital Plan to do that (but engineering is not yet complete, so it is inappropriate to do that now).
Yep, that's pretty much what I had expected - as long as the shovel contracts haven't been let, they can be filed away for another study group at another time to "rediscover" ... here's hoping the NEXT study group has enough sense to scratch out "Wagner" and put in "Cuomo" as mayor when that day comes. :)
(It's interesting that you work for an agency and don't understand its funding process very well...atre you sure you wouldn't be happier in a private sector job? You complain about it enough... )
(So long as funding is present in the Capital Plan, the ESA project and the Second Av project will move ahead.)
Your attitude is unreasonable, your facts incorrect. Prior to the mid-1990s, the FTA engaged in what was called "full funding agreements" That is, it only approved the early stages of a project if it had funding for the project as a whole. The congress suspended that policy to get more projects started, over FTA objections, and as a result there are more projects in the planning stages than there is money for in construction -- assuming funding is reauthorized at prior levels. When and where did I hear this? At a seminar on FTA funding, in Washington, in January 2002.
No, I have it exactly right, actually.
I'm well aware that the entire project (start to finish) is not fully funded yet. But that's OK.
So long as some funding is available to move it forward year after year, that's really what counts. The Capital Plan process made that more predictable and stable, and more coherent. Plus, a project that is moving along is more likely to continue receiving funding. You cannmot demonstrate a single thing wrong with either SAS or ESA projects at the moment.
But you haven't answered my question: Why do you work for an agency you hate so much?
I'm well aware that the entire project (start to finish) is not fully funded yet. But that's OK.
So long as some funding is available to move it forward year after year, that's really what counts. The Capital Plan process made that more predictable and stable, and more coherent. Plus, a project that is moving along is more likely to continue receiving funding. You cannmot demonstrate a single thing wrong with either SAS or ESA projects at the moment.
I've got an idea. You have some free time, right? (In fact, judging by all your postings you seem to have a hell of a lot more free time than any physician I've ever known or known of, but that's another matter for another time.) Head out to your local Blockbuster or Hollywood Video, or better yet an indie video store, and rent the VHS or DVD of Jerry Maguire, a 1996 flick starring Tom Cruise, Cuba Gooding Jr. and Renee Zellweger. Pay special attention to the movie's famous tagline, as delivered by Mr. Gooding (it's pretty unmistakable). That line succinctly sums up my response to the Capital Plan and the Second Avenue Subway.
"Head out to your local Blockbuster or Hollywood Video, or better yet an indie video store, and rent the VHS or DVD of Jerry Maguire, a 1996 flick starring Tom Cruise, Cuba Gooding Jr. and Renee Zellweger. Pay special attention to the movie's famous tagline, as delivered by Mr. Gooding (it's pretty unmistakable). That line succinctly sums up my response to the Capital Plan and the Second Avenue Subway. "
Why should I do that, when you've already fed me that line many times (I saw the movie by the way. Did you like it?).
"(In fact, judging by all your postings you seem to have a hell of a lot more free time than any physician I've ever known or known of, but that's another matter for another time.)"
My wife is dragging me to Kansas City, and I've completed consulting engagements recently. This means:
1) I'm home supervising contractors who are fixing up a house so I can sell it.
2) I'm talking to realtors while my wife wraps things up at the hospital (she's a doc too).
3) I'm still trying to convince myself that moving to KC is a Good Thing and the fact that KC will probably never see an R143 or anything else is OK.
Not to mention the fact that I will be even more removed from Manhattan's realities than you are (The horror...GASP, Air, I need Air...) :0)
(Why do you work for an agency you hate so much?)
Why do you believe I dislike the agency I work for, and where did you get that impression? The opposite is true.
The decisions I disagree with are made by the Governor and State Legislature, and I have a longstanding dislike of the majority of those decisions. I tend to point out decisions they make that benefit the narrow interests that keep them in office, you tend to dismiss those criticisms or justify the decisions. If anything, I have to chuckle when people blame "the MTA" for potential fare increases, service cuts, etc. That just means that people have fallen for the political ruse. I'm not sure how the top bureaucrats at the agency put up with it.
Plunging the state and the MTA deep into debt before even beginning the major capital investments that have been deferred for so long, in particular, is something I objected to strongly, publicly, and continually. As a result of this, I suspect, some of those improvements will not be built, with the state pols blaming "circumstances." We'll see.
Just to let you know buddy, there's *SOME* of us who understand the madness of politics and how the sausage gets packed. Of course, we must be *liberals* because we've worked for these porcine swine at soem point in our lives and know too much for our own good among people who seem to see all this as "repub vs dem," "spy vs. spy" ...
As for those in your agency and how they manage to put up with it, they're political appointees ... they "serve at the pleasure of the governor" (I always LOVED those words, visions of trollops on 8th avenue always came to mind, "ON YOUR KNEES!") But rest assured, the neverending screwing of the public mind, along with the cluelessness of the public serves the political masters well. Face it Larry, It *IS* your fault. :)
(But rest assured, the neverending screwing of the public mind, along with the cluelessness of the public serves the political masters
well. Face it Larry, It *IS* your fault. :)
That's what my wife says. Give up public service, and give up the crusades off the job. And stop complaining about the negative effects on us personally (we're too well off to complain much, it's the principle of the thing that drives me nuts). They haven't screwed us. We screwed us by choosing to live here. But we can't live the way we want to live elsewhere, so they've got us.
Didn't Bloomberg say as much recently? Just take the pain, where are you going to go?
Heh. Well, I threw 12 years of my own life "performing the people's duties" as a "line item" ... the first 10 at the Cable Commission were pretty neat. Worked for Chairman Bill Finneran, one hell of an astute former assemblyman from Greenbergh (near Tarrytown) who was an absolute pleasure to work for/with because he LISTENED, took the effort to LEARN what you were talking about, and then told you what he WANTED and let you go DO IT.
Then came Paturkey. Cable Commission, DEAD ... Finneran and everybody else, FIRED. Fortunately for the 60 souls, Bingbong and I had nothing to lose after getting our "abolishing your titles" announcement so the two of us went STRAIGHT for the TV cameras describing the dietary habits of republicans and Paturkey and Bruno had a "change of heart" ... the agency died, but we all got transferred to the Public Shafting Commission (PSC) ... TOTAL TURNAROUND - Docudroids and Adminiswigs out your arse there, nobody interested in knowing ANYTHING and more study groups than you could shake a powerpoint disk at, producing nothing but METHANE if anything at all.
After two years of that place, my mood had turned bitter, I'd become nasty (just like the assholes I was working for) and Nancy and I went into the software business and I piped off the good ship Lollipop and back into the private sector where rocks do not float, perfectly happy to remain on the ground where Jesus flung 'em. AAAaaaaahhhh.
So for what it's worth, state service ain't as phat as it used to be and my only advice is what would have kept ME with the state - if you can do good even only ONCE per contract period, then there's a reason to stay. However, once two performance reviews have come and gone and all you can do with yourself is download porn on the internet on state taxpayer time (that's what I ended up doing cuz I was an engineer type and they didn't WANT that, confused the lawyers) and watch the clock agonizingly crawl to 10AM, then you might want to consider hitting the silk. I would have been happy to have influenced ANYTHING when I was with the PSC. They wouldn't even let me pick the background color for my powerpoint puppet shows ... :)
So how bad is it?
(I would have been happy to have influenced ANYTHING when I was with the PSC. They wouldn't even let me pick the background color for my powerpoint puppet shows ... :So how bad is it?)
NYCT is better than City Planning. Any operating agency is better than a policy agency because in the end SOMETHING has to get done because there is an actual service to be provided. My advice is stay away from policy. You don't provide information to make decisions, because the pols can't understand information and don't want to make decisions. They want to do deals, and have you come up with "information" to justify them after the fact.
PRECISELY ... and yeah, that was the aspect that drove me the craziest, ESPECIALLY when I had to come up with proof that TimeWarner's 1550 nM fiber was better than Cablevision's 1330 nM fiber when the differences were SO extreme as to be laughable. In the end, I was unable to provide the "proff" required, so it all got swept under the rug and I got to cut out paper dolls as a result of my failure to find documentation ANYWHERE that supported the big lie. 1550 nM is the state's specification though, and that in turn forced the entire cable industry to adopt it. :(
(PRECISELY ... and yeah, that was the aspect that drove me the craziest, ESPECIALLY when I had to come up with proof that TimeWarner's 1550 nM fiber was better than Cablevision's 1330 nM fiber when the differences were SO extreme as to be laughable. In the end, I was unable to provide the "proff" required, so it all got swept under the rug and I got to cut out paper dolls as a result of my failure to find documentation ANYWHERE that supported the big lie. )
Yeah, that's about the victory you get -- writing something unusable. My big coup was an economic analysis that was insufficiently supportive of a billion dollar subsidy for the new stock exchange. They used the EDC -- whore analysis instead, so EDC is responsible for $300 million in city funds down the toilet with zero to show for it.
Yeah, working for the PSC was QUITE the eye-opener for me. I was lucky though, there was an economy out there crying for people who could do what I do, and so I went and did it. There are times though that I miss that mediocre paycheck but at least had days off on a regular basis. Still, I can sleep absent any stab wounds. :)
Didn't Bloomberg say as much recently? Just take the pain, where are you going to go?
It's hard to believe that a sophisticated businessman like Bloomberg would say such an absurd thing. Where are people or businesses going to go? Let's see, there's Atlanta, Phoenix, Denver, Las Vegas, Dallas, Charlotte ... heck, just about any Sunbelt metro area.
>>>>It's hard to believe that a sophisticated businessman like Bloomberg would say such an absurd thing.<<<
But, say it he did.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the article spells out precisely why Bloomie's exasperated:
"So why the flip-flop for Bloomberg? Aides said it's more a matter of necessity than conviction. They noted that the city can be taken over by a financial control board if it fails to balance its budget by June 30."
Here's the scenario kids ... Bloomberg HAS to raise your taxes and cut your city at the knees ... *OR* ... Joe Bruno becomes mayor. So what's it gonna be, folks?
The funding process for new construction is much better today than it was in the 1970's. If you fund a project, it gets built, or at least it gets moved along. Building subways in the 1970's was a disorganized haphazard thing. (And yet, some things did get done).
At any rate, we owe both the $$$ investment and the Capital Plan process itself for the completion of the Archer Av and 63rd Street projects, as well as the extensive station rehabs both already accomplished and going on right now.
"It will merely become "undead," neither really alive nor officially expired. That can go on for years. Or decades."
It's interesting that you work for an agency and don't understand its funding process very well...are you sure you wouldn't be happier in a private sector job? You complain about it enough...
So long as funding is present in the Capital Plan, the ESA project and the Second Av project will move ahead.
"If you fund a project, it gets built, or at least it gets moved along."
You're very certain of that. Isn't it possible though, that the powers that be might decide it's better not to spend certain capital funds, even though they have been appropriated, because if they spend them then they have the interest expense (which they can't afford right now) for the next 30 years?
There is enough need for, and support for, the Second Avenue Subway, however, that no one will dare to declare it "dead." It will merely become "undead," neither really alive nor officially expired. That can go on for years. Or decades.
Unfortunately, the need and support for the SAS is not quite strong enough to bring about the start of actual, shovel-in-the-ground construction. It would be nicer just to let the project die once and for all.
"Unfortunately, the need and support for the SAS is not quite strong enough to bring about the start of actual, shovel-in-the-ground construction. "
False statement, since this has already been approved and funded in the Capital Plan.
You still haven't posted a copy of your latest pay stub proving you actually work in Manhattan...:0)
"It would be nicer just to let the project die once and for all."
If you really believed that, you would write a letter to the Governor and say so. But Iknow you won't.
Such pessimism from a railfan? Although I can understand skepticism due to the 2d Ave subways' seemingly endless postponements, I don't understand your easy dismissal of such a vital transit link for NYC.
Such pessimism from a railfan? Although I can understand skepticism due to the 2d Ave subways' seemingly endless postponements, I don't understand your easy dismissal of such a vital transit link for NYC.
I certainly want the Second Avenue Subway to be built, unfortunately given its long, sad history it's very difficult to be even slightly hopeful. I don't believe in supernatural stuff, but if it were possible for something as inanimate as a proposed subway line to be cursed, well you get the point.
By continually stringing everyone along with their "coming soon" talk, the city and the MTA are systematically destroying their credibility. That's why it might be better to declare the SAS officially dead. It already is dead, and has been so for decades, let's stop being cowardly and just say so.
Nonsense.
It's very simple: If the shovels turn in 2004, the MTA will have kept its promise.
In the last five years, the agency's record is quite good, with the Capital planning process' help. The 63rd Street Connector project was completed exactly on time. East Side Access is on time, proceeding according to schedule, with construction underway and no NIMBY problems of any kind, thanks to a good construction plan. The 1/9 rebuild was a success, albeit being a special case.
Now it's SAS' turn. If construction contracts are let in 2004, the current Capital Plan is fulfilled, and we're ready to go to the next stage.
The rest of your post is basically claptrap.
Now it's SAS' turn. If construction contracts are let in 2004, the current Capital Plan is fulfilled, and we're ready to go to the next stage.
The last time contracts were let, back in the early 1970's, there actually was some construction - and just look what happened. Or didn't happen.
As far as I'm concerned, the MTA and the city have a well-deserved bad reputation as do-nothings. They're going to have to work very, very hard to restore their reputation. Completion of the 63rd Street connection doesn't really count, for although the work was completed on schedule it was a preposterously long schedule. Restoration of 1/9 service was too much of a special case to indicate much of anything. As for East Side Access, it's still too early to see whether it'll be a success or a fiasco.
(Now it's SAS' turn. If construction contracts are let in 2004, the current Capital Plan is fulfilled, and we're ready to go
to the next stage...The last time contracts were let, back in the early 1970's, there actually was some construction - and just look what happened. Or didn't happen.)
The TA's capital program is far better managed than it was in the 1970s, and so is New York City. The problem is fiscal mismangement at the state level, and federal budget priorities.
Then, the MTA had federal money to build the Second Avenue, and squandered it. Now, I believe it is unlikely to get more than 50 percent federal funding for the line, and perhaps far less. And the pre-construction debt run up and other fiscal choices by the state have eliminated the possibility of building it with primarily state and local funds, something that would have been possible otherwise.
You bring up a good point about the federal 50 percent share, assuming that that percentage (not set in stone yet) becomes reality for new starts in TEA-3.
Would you know what constitutes a "new start" in the FTA's eyes? Do they consider it a new start if the shovels are ready to break ground when the Feds are about to cut the checks, or is it a new start if the project's merely in engineering? And would it make a difference as far as federal funding percentages?
Thanks ....
(Would you know what constitutes a "new start" in the FTA's eyes? Do they consider it a new start if the shovels are ready to break ground when the Feds are about to cut the checks, or is it a new start if the project's merely in engineering?)
Until recently, "new starts" were approved right through completion when design engineering was approved. That changed in TEA2. We'll see about TEA 3.
(And would it make a difference as far as federal funding percentages? )
Republicans wanted to cut the percentage for transit vs. roads, while the FTA wants a variable percentage -- lower in some areas like NYC, higher in other areas. The key thing is, if you add up ESA, the Second Ave and some other stuff in the pipeline, it is more than all the FTA "new starts" funding for the whole country for a decade. And after taking care of all their own interests and their own states, the Republicans are talking about budget constraints.
Except that, during horse trading, on seemingly unrelated things, if you play nicely, you get a little pork to take home. In New York State's case, that can include transit money.
So we're not dead in the water just yet.
(Except that, during horse trading, on seemingly unrelated things, if you play nicely, you get a little pork to take home. In New York State's case, that can include transit money. So we're not dead in the water just yet.)
Not yet. I have two thoughts -- get that Republican Convention in 2004 and keep to the design schedule, so they will either have to appropriate or turn down funds just before the election (they can duck with a little help from Pataki and Bloomberg).
And, as I said, have the City Council threaten to enact a development moratorium on the entire area east of 5th Avenue from 14th Street north. No relief for the overcrowded infrastructure, no new buildings paying STATE taxes which are spent OUTSIDE the city. That should get the state's attention.
Transportation, however, has been something that New York State's, and particularly New York City's representatives have traded AWAY in the past. And the health care industry doesn't seem any less powerful.
"Completion of the 63rd Street connection doesn't really count, for although the work was completed on schedule it was a preposterously long schedule."
By your standards, maybe (misses the point but what else is new?).
Why don't you just pretend they didn't build it at all? It could just be a figment of your imagination. If you get off at 21 St in Queens and walk another station, you don't have to acknowledge it. That would fit your world view much better.
:0)
Nonsense.
It's very simple: If the shovels turn in 2004, the MTA will have kept its promise.
In the last five years, the agency's record is quite good, with the Capital planning process' help. The 63rd Street Connector project was completed exactly on time. East Side Access is on time, proceeding according to schedule, with construction underway and no NIMBY problems of any kind, thanks to a good construction plan. The 1/9 rebuild was a success, albeit being a special case.
Now it's SAS' turn. If construction contracts are let in 2004, the current Capital Plan is fulfilled, and we're ready to go to the next stage.
If New York City *really* wants to get a Second Avenue Subway built, there's a way to get it done even now ... simply RENAME Second Avenue to "Joseph L Bruno Boulevard" and you'll have a subway running there within two years. :)
Excellent point.
I'd favor that, if it would help.
It'd work ... Borough Presidents. Heh. Joe Bruno would eat a RAT if it had his name on it. :)
You mean he's into cannibalism? ;)
Nope, ain't gonna touch THAT one. Just hope you ain't surprised though. :)
Me too.
You know what would work? A massive public push to put a permanent new construction moratorium on the entire area east of 5th Avenue and north of 14th Street. The Lex and the streets are already too crowded. No infrastructure, no development -- and no additional state taxes to spend outside New York City. And the New York City Council could pass it, over-riding a Mayoral veto, unless the City Planning Commission stopped it. It could also alter the building code and put in the moratorium that way.
As I said, however, the Second Avenue will never be declared dead, it will merely become "undead," with no decision to rise up against. Perpetual incumbents have learned to make non-decisions, not decisions.
>> If New York City *really* wants to get a Second Avenue Subway built, there's a way to get it done even now ... simply RENAME Second Avenue to "Joseph L Bruno Boulevard" and you'll have a subway running there within two years. :) <<
I thought you were going to say "rename Eighth Ave to Second Ave" but this was funnier.
Sssshhhhhhh! The OBJECTIVE is to take Joey boy to 8th Avenue (with redirected signs) to show him how close we ARE to completion in order to ensure that he hands over the check for the REAL Joe Bruno Boulevard "capping off" party. :)
If the "Gang of Three" (Pataki, Bruno, Silver) want a Second Avenue subway, it will be built; if they don't, it won't. Either way, they'll announce what they've already decided if and when they choose to.
That's about it. As of now, they've stated that they do want one (which is why it's in the Capital Plan).
Second week of January ... the wednesday following the "State of the State" message on your PBS station ... the festivities are called "budget school" ...
I know there are more than a fair share of old TV and Radio buffs on this board, so I just wanted to ask if old Vacuum tubes pulled from old TV's and Radio's and the like have any value and if so what is the relivent information someone would need to know about them.
Thanks.
Vacuum tubes work very well in environments where solid state or IC technology (which has not been hardened) falls prey to EM interference.
Philip Nasadowski, where are you? Take a stab at this, will you?
Here :)
Tubes don't care about lots of things. Run a transistor past it's rated power, it's toast. I've seen tubes merrilly run wit white hot plates and not care. They'll draw current until they arc over, pretty much. Or jusr flat out waste the cathode.
Tubes will also resist EM pulses that will screw up or totally waste solid state devices. Some physics types prize old Tektronix scopes because of this - they work around the Tokamak or whatever, whereas the new whoopdeedo digital stuff just goes dead.
What kills tubes it the physical enviroment, noteably vibration. They'll run remarkably hot (though it's not great for them), but shake them and they do all sorts of interesting things. Thermal drift is also a bit of a problem, though better circuits can compensate.
Circuit density is what killed tubes. You can't get high density with them (though I saw one speculation that said a Pentium built out of 12AX7s could concieveably be only the size of a small home...).
In a lot of areas, semicoductors have caught up with or exceeded tubes in power handling, but many RF regions are still the domain of tubes (even the new HDTV transmitters are tube). Some specialized areas still use tubes, such as imaging, where tubes still offer advantages over CCD devices.
As for pulls from TVs and radios? Loose bases are generally bad, and a white powdery coating on the glass is always bad. Most tubes will have a silvery spot on the envelope - this is a sign that the tube's vacuum is intact.
CRTs from any TV without UHF are worth saving - TV collectors need them, as even a bad one can be rebuilt if it's physically intact and still holding a vacuum. Doubly true for any round color CRT (which, Mike, I'll glady take off your hands, especially 21FJP22 or 21FBP22 ( or 15GP22 :)
'Globe' style tubes from REALLY old radios are a good find too, hell, take the whole radio :)
The more common types, 12AX7, 12AU7, 6L6, 6V6, etc, are worth taking, but are very common anyway.
You'd be amazed where tubes pop up, too.
Ob subway blabber:
When the NYCTA got PA systems on subway cars, were the first ones tube, and does anyone know where the amp was and what tubes it used?
Who cares???? Really cool running a kilowatt AM equivalent on eighty meters with a pair of carbon plate 572B/TTL160s. Lights dim and room gets warm. 'This is 6L6GB calling CQ.' Gets em everytime on Field Day! CI Peter is WB2SGT Extra Class listening 20 below.
You woulda loved my electronics teacher ... showed us that "thermionic emission" does not require ELECTRONS! Sumbitch took a BLOW TORCH, fired it up, and pulled in local AM's through a loudspeaker connected to the plate. Straight "crystal set" but proved the point since it wasn't plugged in and there were no batteries. Sure taught ME a thing or three. Try THAT with six transistors. :)
And something even MORE twisted (more tricks with a blowtorch) ... take an old audio plate transformer, hook up audio to the speaker side, take the primary side, place in a flame about 3 inches apart (must be a controlled blue flame from a blowtorch) and turn up the volume. The flame talks, sings and plays music MUCH cleaner than any piddly speaker would. :)
Oh, yes, I've been WANTING to build one, but I never think of it when my parents are out of the house....
Can't feed the audio directly from the 8 ohm tap to the torch, huh? that sucks. Now I have to find a plate tranny and a guniea pig amp. Hmmm. Must have one somewhere...
Oh yes, ribbon speakers out of aluminum foil are a cute trick too, but the DC resistance and AC resistance are just too low uness you go long with the foil :(
I've heard flame speakers are REALLY weird, though...
Care to put up a RealPlayer file of one here :0)
Real Player files come already distorted. How would you be able to tell which is real and which is memorex? :)
Remindes me of this website I saw where this kid turned a bunch of old hard drives into speakers. Had a laptop, a 3.5" and a 5" HD for a trebble, woofer and sub-woofer. He has downloadable recordings and by golly they worked really well.
Yeah, unfortunately you need an impedance up about 2000 ohms to HEAR anything through a flame, and it's got to be nicely ionized which means long and blue ... the foil jobs don't sound all that great, but are pretty adequate on high end (dogs cringe) ... just be sure to trim off the bottom end of the frequency response or you'll blow out the flame. But yeah, I once ran a company called "Avalanche Sound Research (ASR) and we actually tried to perfect that madness. Oh, the gas bills. :)
I wonder how a moo would sound.:)
Pretty much like "Moo" if the flame doesn't go out from the bass. :)
Fortunately an old rubber hot water bottle connected up to the airhorn still works pretty nicely as long as the slit on the bottom isn't too wide. If you recall, I told you about some of the cutups at Coney Island car shop, I knew a guy who showed me that trick once on an Arnine ... it was a pretty damned good MOO he got out of the car. Heh.
You'll have to jog my memory on that R-9 moo.
It was something I mentioned here in passing a few days ago to Jeff H at the museum as a neat trick to pull for next year. The catch is you have to make the slit at the end about 3/4 inch or so so that air passes out and the bladder vibrates enough to "Moo" ... make the slit TOO large and it goes into whoopie cushion mode. Then again, I can that too. Tie it off where the horn trumpet was and voila, interesting train horn. There's supposedly a company in India that makes these things for real. :)
I mean, bear in mind there were some REAL nutcases back at Coney in my day. They'd go and buy some balloons over on the arcade, then put them over the airpipe and hold down the cord until they burst. :)
Do you really want 1689 to sound like a cow when pulling the whistle cord?:) The whoopie cushion sound would be pretty funny, though.
With me in the cab? You betcha ... though I'd settle for a geese call. :)
But no, that's for NEXT year. I don't think 1689 will be out for THAT tour. Then again, considering who the docent/Luciano for the day will be, maybe we SHOULD go for the whoopie cushion. I'll bring some clothespins for that udderly ridiculous sound for when *I* dump the train. :)
I'll be ROTFLMAO, guaranteed.
Hey ... if you can't dance, then you're no fun ... and if you're no fun, you're a 12-9. MEMBERS can't sue. Whoops. :)
Hey, in keeping with spirit of this off-topic thread:
Thay STILL use vacuum tubes as part of the leveling devices on the manually operated freight elevators where I work.
Peace,
andee
I have no problem with tubes myself, if there's ever an Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) event, anything that runs on tubes will still WORK whereas ANYTHING with semiconductors will revert to beach sand. Sometimes "old tech" has advantages, that's why the Russkies STILL make brand new tubes for THEIR military gear. :)
From what I understand, there is no (very little - whoever gobbled up Western Electric has reinstated 300b production) tube manufacture in the states. I've also been told that the American military has gone completely solid state, which is something I have a hard time believing.
-Robert King
That's correct. Even the remains of IEC/Mullard in Germany have given up. However the Russkies AND the Chinese are still blowing glass for THEIR military and other uses. I tell ya, I miss the days when you could leave stuff plugged in during lightning storms and have a reasonable expectation that it would still work after that bright flash outside. Then again, the cost of replacing numerous appliances you forgot to unplug is probably still cheaper than the electric bill in the alternative. :)
After all, even making coffee requires a CPU now.
Was 300As matched pair in wooden box with papers for $ 800. Built from tooling of WE in Kearny.
Well its a moot point for the immediate future. They were clearing out a lot of old 60's and 70's AV equipment (including old reel to reels and VHS machines), which included two large condole B&W video-input display monitors. One had its back off exposing all the tubes and I wondered if I should salvage them. Anyway, long story short everything has disappeared off the dock, but I'm sure I'll run into tube stuff again and maybe I'll salvage them. I already have a bunch of Ampex tubes from an old Galvanometer.
I am still amazed that those old engineers could actually make all that stuff with tubes actually work and do something as complex as display a broadcast image.
Indicently, the Physics storage rooms are just loaded with replacemnt tubes for the old scopes and demo devices.
I was one of those old engineer types who designed TV sets and other equipment. Wasn't as hard as it looks really - tubes were VERY forgiving of sloppy design. :)
Hey, if they clear those rooms, let me know, I'll send my wish list :)
Indeed the first subway PA systems used a tube amp. I don't
know the specifics of exactly what tube was used, but it was
a single-tube unit. I believe the B+ supply was taken from
the 600 with a suitable ballast resistor. The unit was located
under one of the seats. Most of these were replaced with solid-state
but here and there a few survived. The last one I saw was in an
R-22 work motor on the scrap line, alas another collector got
to it first! 6688 up at Branford originally had a tube amp but
the current unit is transistor.
Single tube? Joy. fed off the 600V line must have been fun to filter the line. And no real voltage regulation. No wonder they never worked right!
Actually, are you *sure* it was only one tube? I'm trying to think of ways to do this with a single tube, but none are really poppng into my mind now...
With a 1V p-p trainlined audio signal from (carbon) mics, a 6V6 or such could maybe put out a watt or two. With a 12SN7 and 6V6, that goes up a bit. Add another 6V6, you get a push pull amp and a lot more watts....
I'd love to see a schematic, but I doubt there are any around.
I bet the solid state units sucked hard too at first....
Carbon mic PTT in the cathode circuit, grid leak bias, transformer up top. I can see it. 6L6 ... also explains that LOUD crackle. :)
(!)
The 6L6 would be an easy choice, given the availability of the 5881 (industrial version), but you'd need around 14 volts P-P at the grid to get 6 watts, single ended. That's a tall order for a carbon mic, IMHO.
Then again, it only needed to feed a few speakers, and I'd doubt you'd need THAT much power.
And, the vibration would keep a carbon mic 'loose'. It'd also keep the tube loose, even with a good spring thing holding it.
I guess if one had 600V laying around, a carbon mic, and a 6L6, it could be breadboarded easily. Though I suspect the actual. voltage was less (the early 6L6s didn't like 600V). As for being driven directly off the third rail, it's possible, and cheap, but I wouldn't do it, if only to get line isolation and the ability to get some regulation into the supply (which a vibrator inverter and autotransformer could help achive)
I still want to know if Septa's Silverliners still use the as delivered Ignitron tube setup in the propulsion system...
6L6 was a nice tube. Beam power pentode. Simple, made a nice CW unit. 6L6 to 807 to WW2 1625 to post war 6146...a nice tube. In my 'minds eye,' I can see Shep keying down in the attic with barglass electrolyctic rectifiers boiling over. 'Flick, help me, my pants are on fire!!!!' Line up all the aluminum folding chairs. CI Peter
The 6L6 was a great tube (though the EL-34 might have sounded better), but today, I'd go with a 6550 for an amp. They can push pull (class A1, ifixed bias) 100 watts :)
My favorite (ab)use of a pair of 6L6s was the auto speed units in late 50's Seeburg jukeboxes. Probbably the first real comerical use of VFDs outside of factories...
Later tube Seeburgs had a leaf switch on the turntable...sensed the 45 or 33 RPM hole...motor drive servo unit became transistorised but the rest of the jukebox was tubes until black/blue box MSI integration
universal serial/parallel converters were placed in use. Remember the Seeburg 'TORMAT?.' Cleaned those suckers with a piece of sandpaper and degreased the scanning fingers. Let us not forget 'morning sickness,' hardened grease in the scan motor ran the gearbox slow in cold weather until warmed up. TA green monkey oil would have fixed em all up. CI peter
What I expect on a trainline is that the Mic would be connected between ground and the CATHODE, a grid-leak resistor with a trainline transformer to the grid for "feed thru" and a transformer with tap on the plate circuit. Probably about 100 divided down for plate source and a sheetload of caps to keep the mess quiet.
I *saw* one of those amplifier jobbies years and years ago and I'm pretty sure it *was* a 6L6 (not an industrial renumbering either) and there were two transformers mounted, 4-5 resistors and a bunch of good old fashioned tubular caps. I remember it was a CHEAPASS thingy. I didn't ask to see a schematic at the time (and yes I could have read it at the time if I was the least bit interested) ...
Hopefully there's someone around here who might have actually worked on some of them - I imagine most of them were still going in the 80's and I'd wager there's a few of them still laying around somewhere in cardboard boxes in the car shops. CHEESY things they were though.
Modulating a 6L6 with a carbon mike was easy....look up ARC-5s
Don't gotta sell ME on that. My fave about those old lugs was yanking out the mic and plugging in a key. 100 ohms was a happy amount. Things were so much easier in the days of radio that glowed. :)
So I had a service call on Rockaway Boulevard because the RockOla CD jukebox had no sound. My 'boss' had his hands in the CD decoder and busted some lands on the PCB which could not be seen. Used the old 'grid leak resistor wet finger on the PCB' trick to find the broken path and make an emergency field repair in mono two channels.
Chubby chicks got to shake everything they had in the airline truckers face thanks to me...of course, no reward as usual.
Ya know, I don't miss doing that kinda stuff anymore. Cold solder joints and Nardaforms ain't fun. Not at $8 a repair. :)
When I said, "and a transformer with tap on the plate circuit" I meant "separate winding" for trainline ...
I guess if one had 600V laying around, a carbon mic, and a 6L6, it could be breadboarded easily. Though I suspect the actual. voltage was less (the early 6L6s didn't like 600V).
I just looked up the 6L6 specs in my RCA Receiving Tube Manual (RC-18, price 75 cents). Max plate voltage was 360 (down to 275 volts for a triode connection).
I guess if they actually put 600 volts on the plate, it would have sounded as bad as they did and the tubes would have lasted as long as they did.
You still have the 'Red Book?'
Still have my own 1956 Sylvania tube book, my 1958 CBS/Hytron book, and my 1962 Harrison, NJ RCA tube manual ("introducing the 6GH8") all arranged in a nice series string in my bookcase.
I think that the 1962 Silverliner II's came with silicon diode packs and the PRR E-44 freight units bought in 1960 had the iniital units be Hg arc rectifiers and the later units (E-44a) be silicon diode. Eventually all the E-44's got the silicon diode packs, so I wouldn't see why the Silverliners II's if not built w/ the technology wouldn't have been built w/ an upgrade in mind. The Pioneer III cars had Hg Arc rectifier tubes for sure and probably kept them until retirement.
Gee, we didn't cover vacuum tubes at all when I was in electronic school. Transistor amps, nothing else. I gotta tell you, it's been 15 years since I graduated and I'm rusty to the point of corrosion. I've retained more music theory than electronics theory.:)
Just as well ... we don't make or fix electronics in this country anymore. That's why Radio Shack sells phones, and polypacks went under. :(
Yeah, everything's become disposable now. When I went VCR shopping this past summer, one sales clerk told me there are so many plastic parts in VCRs now that it would cost as much to repair them (if you can even get parts) as it would to just buy a new one.
I wound up getting a fully loaded JVC.
Yeah, once upon a time, I made a living fixing them. Now I make a living fixing MICROSUCK. I remember when "Junk Video Company" was a technician's WORST nightmare ("schematica? NOBODY see schematica") ... now, the replacement's cheaper than paying the Pakistani with a soldering iron to fill out a Nardaform. Yipe!
I'm personally pleased that I can still keep the 1970 Sylvania console that I designed lit. But when I turn it on, you can SEE the meter spin. Needless to say, I do it sparingly. I would have "modernized" it but the damed old thing was something I designed to SUCK watts for tots when it didn't matter like it does in today's Enronized "too cheap to meter" world.
Ohm ..........
Side thought to the tune of "Kodachrome" by Paul Simon ... appropriate as a diversion to KEEP this "transit-related" for a brief femtosecond ...
"I've got a NICHROME wire ...
I love to raise the pantograph ...
Momma don't TAKE 1689 away ..."
Railroaders LOVE to hump. With indication and four part harmony. :)
Once in a great while I'd get a train of R-1/9s whose bull and pinion gears would be a major third apart as the train picked up speed. Gorgeous sound. The closest analogy would be that stock footage of fighter planes with accompanying engine sounds.
Sometimes, the work trains pass over the trestle on the south end of 239th yard. I'm the only one to stop, listen and look. Arnines...straight cut tool steel gearing made in U.S. of A. Ivan and Krishna will never understand...they felt no loss from 911.
Is a brief femtosecond an attosecond? Does time get granular? Walk the Planck and see!
John
I had to learn to do tube and transistor curves in RCA Institutes...even learn to draw Karnow maps...in 1973. TA
sends me to school at 207th with Lewis...module three
'Boolean Algebra'...almost thirty years later. Never saw
Boleas agid bra. PolyPacks floor sweepings never worked...
RCA was big on "nodal analysis" ... alas, so many of their "engineers" couldn't analyze a sine wave on their little 3 inch toy scope. You remember those I'm sure. Everybody had to build one and keep troubleshooting it until it worked. Rotate it 30 degrees and there went the focus. Silly me, I went the CIE route. Aiyee. :)
I 'liberated' the parts for one when i worked for RCA Home Study but the school had decent Teks with multilayer tubes that smucks carved their initials into with unscanned beams. RCA scope was sold for ten bucks.
Yep ... CIE sold an EICO. Ewwwww. But I got better, my OTHER scope is a Tek 442. My old jobbie with the plug-ins died years ago and I decided it was cheaper to buy a HOUSE than get it fixed. :)
We DID cover Boolean Algebra in electronics school. Right now, one of the few things I remember is Ohm's Law, and then only a couple of formulas out of 12. Open circuit voltage and short circuit current are a few others. Digital was fun with "and" and "nand", "or" and "nor", and "exclusive or" gate logic.
Not so 'off the wall' even with 'solid state.' Thirty years ago, I built a modulated voltage regulator placed into a Ten-Tec QRP CW transciever. Modulated VCC affected output power for AM equivalent with little FMing as VFO ran about six volts or so. Busted into Post Office 80 meter net to say hello dropping the 'N' from my novice callsign. Easy stuff. 6L6GB QRZ. CI Peter
I will attempt to locate a schematic. The single tube may have
been a dual-pentode for push-pull operation. The line-level
signal from the carbon mic was powered from the 37.5 battery
bus and then capacitively coupled to the trainline. The AC audio
signal was superimposed on a DC "logic level" signal, i.e. the L1
lighting control trainline, because there were no spare trainlines
available when PAs were retrofitted to the fleet. IIRC, there
were some experiements on R10s, but the R15 was the first order
to have PA from the get-go. Oh, of course, some of the BMT cars
had PAs too, but that was a totally different circuit.
Do me favor? If you DO find it, send me a copy of it? If you're a REAL good boy, I'll try to build you one. Nothing like authentic. :)
This looks like one of the Japonese WW2 one tube 'walkie-talkies.' R33s have these Com/Co interphone panels insulated from carbody but do not work without carbody ground. That's what sash windows are for...stick your head out and yell, 'in the hole, in the hole, IN THE HOLE BIE speak English.'
Ricky the K uses vacuum tubes in his studio and on his board to create a "warm" sound of his internet re-creation of WABC like top 40 radio of the sixties. He is on the net by subscription under 60's radio.
For the most part, I'd have to say yes, unless they're defective. There is quite some interest in vintage electronics these days, particularly in consumer goods such as radios, component hifi/stereo and televisions. There's also some interest in old test and scientific equipment that also uses vacuum tubes as well, but it's to a lesser extent. This is where you'd find a market for good used tubes. The high priced audiophile people wouldn't buy used tubes; only new ones or new-old-stock.
If you're pulling them out of old TV and radio sets, what you'd need to do first, assuming that the tube's evelope isn't obviously leaking or outright broken, is check the filament(s) for continuity with an ohmmeter. You'll need a pin out for each type of tube, and sometimes even for specific tubes, to know which pins are for the filament(s). Once you've established this, you should try the tube in a tube tester to see if it does indeed work and if it's performance is acceptable. If your tubes pass the tube tester test, then you can sell them as good used.
Hope this helps!
-Robert King
P.S. I take delivery of a nice Scott 330C later this week.
Additionallly, the specific value of any given good tube is usually dictated by the following:
- Maker and type of tube, including various models of the same tube from the same manufacturer. Eg. I think Telefunken had a couple of different 12AX7s.
- Rarity
- Market demand, especially if a lot of people are using vintage equipment that requires a less-than-easy-to-find tube. After all, tubes are consumables!
Cosmetic condition usually doesn't matter as long as the markings are there and are legible, but buyers will sometimes insist on clean, good looking tubes if their equipment is in a visible place and they don't have covers, or keep the covers off (remember, glowing tubes look good).
-Robert King
They might and might not have value. I've seen them up for auction on ebay and at a flea market in Manhattan. Radio Shack still sells them, but are a special order.
Some of the rarer types can be valuable, because they just don't make them anymore. A technician who wants to repair an old TV set or hi-fi amp may have to search around big time. The days of the old electronic stores that sold tubes and other old type components are vanishing fast.
Bill "Newkirk"
We have one such store in Denver, Fistell's. They've been around for years. Up until a few years ago, you could still get car radio vibrators from them. An American Flyer train enthusiast bought out their entire stock. Gilbert's air chime whistle used a car radio vibrator as a signal generator.
So I woke up!!!! Pulled tooobs have little value unless: they are tested on a dynamic tube tester, found of decent emission and are rare or unavailable. Really oldies with glass globe construction cannot be tested on anything anymore other than a home-built jig...if the filament tests OK with an ohmmeter...it is worth something to someone. Besides collectors books and online reference, Ebay auctions can give you some ideas. If it's a box of 6L6s, 12SN7s and assorted 'miniature tubes,' preserve them as keepsakes. I not only fix trainsets but am a member of Quarter Century Wireless Club and Antique Wireless Association. Now IF you only had a matched pair of
WE-300As!!! CI Peter is WB2SGT EXTRA CLASS
still own a tube tape recorder 2 ampex f44 fine line 7" reel 2 reel
were the first audio system on any subway car powered by a tube sound
system?. when the conductor keys down on his pager mic or wall mic..
was it powered by a tubes type audio PA system ?? I have operated tube audio PA type systems back in my school dayz for the audio /visual department as a volunteer student / stagecraft etc..
with electro voice 665 & 664 sometimes the old 630 ot a sure44
but this was a land system powered by 110 volt system ( wall socket )
I'm sure the experimental PA system on the B-types used tubes. Since the transistor was invented in 1948, it might be reasonable to expect that any car manufactured before the R16/17 that had an electronic public adress system HAD to use vacuum tubes.
On this subject, I'm the proud owner of my grandmothers 1940ish RCA radio set, with open back, vacuum tube operation, bakelite case and steel chassis construction. It takes 2 minutes to warm up, only gets AM stations and uses so much electricity that it warms the space around it, but there's nothing like listening to a baseball game on it. It's deep, rich sound cannot be found on any modern equipment.
I'd go as far as saying any subway PA system made before the mid 60's was tube. Early solid state devices hated temperature swings, couldn't handle power, and were fragile as hell. It wasn't until the 60's that practical solid state audio amps even began to appear...
Jeez, they had working transistor radios by 1955.
Maybe that explains why all those 50's and early 60's cars had PA systems which were kaput by the 1980's. I remember when working PA's were the exception, usually on the new R44/46/62/68's only.
Does anyone remember the conductor on the #1 line back in the 80's who'd act like he was on a tour bus, telling a different story about the neighborhood surrounding the station the train was in? I loved that guy.
Servo control amps, fly by wire and voltage regulators....2N174 to 2N3055.
Nothing beat the CK722 in my book. :)
AWA just listed a 122 page book someone wrote on the Raytheon CK722.
Here ya go, there goes the night ... a WONDERFUL site on the glorious CK722 PLUS "build a real radio" schematic!
http://www.geocities.com/ck722transistor/
Geiger counters too! :)
Unca Selkirk: I never lie as a matter Faith...book is 120 pages!
next question. the first subway cars to have any kind of a sound system PA etc... maybe a tube powered R-9?
R-4 484 had an experimental PA system installed. The mikes were above the trigger boxes on the exterior corners. That car is now at the Transit Museum, and the PA is still in place.
It wasn't applied to the rest of the R-1/9 fleet, although the R-10s had a similar PA system installed.
Didn't at least one of the BMT experimentals have a PA system as well?
-Robert King
Yes. In Grellar's book, it states that a few 2600 & 2800 series had experimental PA systems. They had wired microphones which allowed the conductor to step out on the platform while making announcements. There are even pictures of them being used on #2640 on p. 46. It further states that they weren't popular because people usually knew where they were going and preferred a quiet ride. What a difference 60 years makes. Today, on a much simpler system, PA announcements are considered vital to avoid people getting lost.
>>>...PA announcements are considered vital to avoid people getting lost. <<<<
OR, helping them get lost. Depending on whether or not the C/R is a marble mouth. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The multis may have had a PA or at least the Green Hornet or the Zephyr did, AFAIK.
Will defer to Paul Matus on this one, but I think the C-types
had a PA system.
i will have to see that and will make sure next time the museum is
open and i am fortunate enough to be there
I have my folks' 1954 Bulova clock radio. Its filter capacitor was replaced in 1971. The radio works fine, although it suffers from station drift occasionally. I also have their 1954 Magnavox hi-fi. It's in a wooden housing, and with the lid down, has a pretty tone which my father particularly likes. Its heavy tonearm allows you to physically guide it along a record, and it also fixes skips. You have to use sapphire needles on it. I put a diamond stylus in it once, and it literally stopped a 45 rpm record in its tracks. One of its tubes was still original as late as 1973. Well, it had "Magnavox" on its side, anyway.
"Gravesend Ave to the Scrapper?" I can't imagine why else this train would be under an el instead of on top of the el. Is this what we are looking at in this photo - the funeral procession for this train along McDonald Ave under the Culver El? I don't know older trains too well, so is this a Low V at the end of it's life, or am I totally off on this one - assuming this is even McDonald Ave. Maybe it's an earlier photo? Some of the photo's in the box are clearly reprints of older photos. Most are taken in the 60's and original. I can't figure out if this is a reprint of an older photo, or if it was actually taken in the 60's. The paper of the photo is consistant with the ones that are clearly 60's photos.
Nah, that was how the predecessors to the Transit museum HID the train of LoV's that they were playing peekaboo with the TA over in order to save them from the scrappers ... before they ended up on the Esplanade on the 5 line in the express tunnel, they were often moved about under the Jerome El. (just kidding, looks like McDonald to me)
I'll say this pic was taken under the current F line. If someone can read the sign on the right side of the picture, that might be a clue.
If someone can read the sign on the right side of the picture, that might be a clue.
Well I can only make a few words out. The billboard on the right says, "Anna Lucasta" or something. I can't make out whole sentences on the one on the left. It says, "Century" possibly a theather name. The movies say, "Bringing in the --- ---", and under, "Fighting Freed ---". Best I could do. Maybe that helps.
I concur. That's definatley the SBK under the CUlver line. I cant think of anywhere in the system where an el is directly over a surface railroad, and seeing soon to be scrapped cars here is not an isolated incident:
Keep those pics coming, Chris!
What is that building the two men on the right are standing next to? Lokks like a taxi stand or streetcar shelter of some sort.
The green area directly behind that building is probably Washington Cemetery. Therefore the building is in the park adjoining the south boundary of that cemetery. It is north of Avenue M.
Bob Sklar
No it's the entres to Coney Island Yard. The trees is were Mac 5 is now.
Robert
Yeah the D-Type trip that I missed! Running along 2nd Ave. and then Bay Ridge to Parkville Junction -- and the final leg down to Coney Island on Mickey D Avenue....probably THE best damn D-Type trip of all time!
Yeah Doug, you missed a great trip! After running along the street on 2nd. Ave, it went along the West End to the newly abandoned 9th. Ave. lower level, were we got out for a photo stop.
At that point, rumor started to spread that we would be going up on the abandoned Culver Shuttle elevated section, but as planned we went on SBK under the Culver Shuttle, then all the way up Mickey D to CIY.
That was my favorite trip!
-Larry
How could the triplexes operate on the SBK? No third rail? Pulled by a locomotive?
I'm still stunned that a subway train could run down a street with cars and people crossing it!
Here's the flier for the trip:
NIIIICE!
Larry, without a doubt, I bet I was railfanning on trains on the Brighton the same time you were. Probably even shared the railfan window with you...back in H.S. days
Too bad I was only 3 years old at the time!
And all of that for $12.00!! WOW!!!
--Mark
And all of that for $12.00!! WOW!!!
I was only 15 at the time so I got my ticket for the child's price of $6.00 :-)
I was only 4, so I could have gone for $6.00 also. What a great trip that must have been.
Now that's value. Damned inflation.
Now that's value. Damned inflation.
Yeah, but if you think about it:
1975 fare = 35¢
Fantrip ($12) = 34.28 x fare
2002 fare = 2.00
Redbird trip ($45) = 30 x fare
-Larry
2002 fare = 2.00
Redbird trip ($45) = 30 x fare
Sorry typo, of course the current fare is $1.50 :-)
2002 fare = 1.50
Redbird trip ($45) = 30 x fare
Hey Chris, where are you coming up with all these great pictures from?
Keep them coming!
Hey Chris, where are you coming up with all these great pictures from?
Keep them coming!
I have shoebox full of them that my father bought at a yard sale back in the 70's. Many of them are labeled, but many are not. Whoever took them didn't put his name on even one of them, so I have no idea who took them, and of course no idea where they came from anymore. I assume after the photographer passed away, his heirs had a yard sale, and my father luckily went to it. I guess that was better than if they threw them out, as some of them are really interesting. I am glad that my father decided to buy them, I imagine there must have been more at the yard sale, but who knows what happened to them. My father said it was just this box, but he doesn't really remember. The funny thing is I was just a kid in the 70's, and didn't really show an interest in the subway yet, and my father aside from being a daily commuter on the subway didn't really care for it - it was the 70's afterall, but he bought them anyway.
Well, I will keep them coming. Actually I will also upload some of the ones that are clearly labeled on a website, and post the link here when I get the chance to scan some more. There are some LIRR ones mixed in also. Did you see the thread titled, "Mystery Photo #2" from a few days ago, it has R12's being delivered with a LIRR caboose on the end of the train on the Bay Ridge Branch - figured you may like that one. Everyone here seemed to like that one.
The photo location is McDonald (Gravesend) Avenue near Foster Avenue. The train is passing over the LIRR tracks which are below the low concrete wall in the right hand corner near the small billboards. I'm guessing that the train is moving southbound. The righthand poster may say "Anna Lucasta" which was a play in 1944 and 1947, and a movie in 1949 and 1958. I'm guessing again but the style of poster indicates the 1940s more than the 1950s.
That is McDonald Ave. on the South Brooklyn railway track for sure. I'm guessing that those are old Low-Vs or flivvers sent down the Bay Ridge branch interchanged at Parkville Jct. for the ride on McDonald to Coney Island yard for scrapping.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Canarsie CBTC's goal of creating a universal standardized CBTC system has failed. The system to be installed will have as its critical communications subsystem a proprietary system developed by the lead supplier - Siemens. Any of the follower suppliers, Alcatel and Alstrom, will have to purchase this critical piece from Siemens. Moreover, they will probably have to buy the rest of the equipment from Siemens because the critical nature communications subsystem.
This proprietary communications subsystem has never been tested. The communications subsystem used in the test trials was the Springboard RailPath DCS. This provided an well defined interface that any supplier. By contrast, the essential protocols for Siemen's system are proprietary. Any alternate supplier will be forced to purchase equipment from Siemens or will have to try to reverse engineer the equipment.
One of the primary objectives of the Canarsie CBTC project was to free NYCT from a single supplier. The experience with Cubic's implementation of the Metrocard demonstrated the shortcomings of dealing with proprietary equipment. A lengthy and costly development cycle was instituted to prevent dependence on proprietary systems. It would appear that this development cycle has failed.
What does this mean for the future? If NYCT wants to expand CBTC beyond the Canarsie line it will have to either buy from Siemens or develop a brand new system. The brand new system will not be compatible with the Canarsie line.
Crazy S--t! Well, the R-142's will be running as is for the foreseeable future, I presume...
I think you mean R-143???
You are correct, Bob. BTW, what's new with LIRR history? I hope your site isn't history? :(
I would like to say that I finally finished uploading everything I possibly could to the website - but that would be lying. I have loads of stuff to add (a lot of it from you, Doug), but just haven't found the time to do it. One of these days - maybe when I retire, or when the grandkids get a little older :-)...
By the way, fellow Subtalkers, we should all really appreciate Dave P's efforts with nycsubway.org. It really does take a lot of time and effort to keep these websites going.
Bob Andersen
www.lirrhistory.com
You mean the R143's?
The Canarsie line is isolated and has it will have it's own dedicated fleet. However, not having the Canarsie CBTC system compatible with a future system to be implemented elsewhere is foolish in the extreme.
No wonder nothing ever gets done in NYC either i) cheaply, ii) on time, iii), within our lifetimes, or iv)ever [pick one]
The one exception, of course being the reconstruction of the 1/9 south of Chambers. Too bad we don't have the resolve to get other infrastructure jobs done similarly as that one.
Are you confident that Stephen actually knows what he's talking about here?
I'm not.
Well, now that you mention it... I assumed that he did.
But still, I believe that it just takes too much time to get anything done for a reasonable amount of money in NYC (and let me expand that to all of the NY Metro region - excepting perhaps the HBLR and Airtrain in the last few years).
Get in line, pal, we're all complaining.
But there really is good news up ahead. 2004 will see the restoration of full Manny B service, therefore a complete and fully restored subway service; fully restored PATH service; HBLR stretching from Bayonne to Hoboken and beyond; substantial progress in completing the 53rd/Lex station, the Stillwell Av and Jamaica Station rebuilds; AirTrain service in Queens underway; enhanced NJT services; more Acela services; and progress in the new Amtrak Penn Station. Not to mention all the new rolling stock
There's a lot to be thankful for here.
2004 will see the restoration of full Manny B service
Based on what's happened before on the bridge, it might be 2014 !!
Uh, good point. BUT, he SOUNDS like he has some kind of 'inside source'. Either that or he's a damn good yard spinner...
I like your second explanation better. Of course, 50 years after he's gone, we'll find out he knew the TA version of "Deep Throat." I won't worry about that now.
The 1/9 got federal funds. You should change that to anything funded by NYS or NYC.
The Federal Funds sure did make it a lot easier. I think what I'm trying to say is that we need more "resolve" to get these things done.
No wonder nothing ever gets done in NYC either i) cheaply, ii) on time, iii), within our lifetimes, or iv)ever [pick one]
The one exception, of course being the reconstruction of the 1/9 south of Chambers. Too bad we don't have the resolve to get other infrastructure jobs done similarly as that one.
I'll take choice iv).
While the quick reconstruction of the 1/9 was a remarkable achievement, it obviously was about as special a case as you can possibly get.
"The Canarsie CBTC's goal of creating a universal standardized CBTC system has failed. The system to be installed will have as its critical communications subsystem a proprietary system developed by the lead supplier - Siemens."
As reported and judged by the official New York State CBTC Approval Commissioner - Stephen Baumann.
"One of the primary objectives of the Canarsie CBTC project was to free NYCT from a single supplier."
Your source for this, besides yourself?
"The experience with Cubic's implementation of the Metrocard demonstrated the shortcomings of dealing with proprietary equipment. A lengthy and costly development cycle was instituted to prevent dependence on proprietary systems. It would appear that this development cycle has failed."
There is only one choice here, Stephen. It is imperative that, as CBTC Commissioner, you immediately suspend CBTC operations on the Canarsie Line. Further, you should relieve the Canarsie Line's manager of his responsibilities and take over yourself while a search committee looks for his replacement. Finally, you should immediately write to Larry Reuter and inform him that he no longer enjoys your confidence to continue as President of NYCT.
:0)
Steve Bauman is correct -- one of the goals of the CBTC installation on the Canarsie Line was to provide interoperability among equipment from multiple suppliers to avoid dependence on any one supplier. As for the rest of his post, I just don't know. I'm not sure what contract he's talking about.
David
Assuming that the goal is as he's stated it, we still don't know exactly what went on. Is Siemen's equipment truly proprietary?
One thing that Stephen could do (he won't - but I'm willing to be surprised) is write to the TA and ask about this. He'll get an answer, which he can dissect here.
The Metrocard system seems to be working just fine
Working in the technology area there is no such thing as a non proprietary technology.
Even though they may be standards such as ANSI/ISO SQL, or JAVA, each software company/manuafactures customizes/extends the standard/enhances the standard. The important thing is that the system works and the manufacture is finacially stable.
If I am not incorrect the siemens system is installed in paris and paris is rather happy with its operation. That is all that matters.
Most cd players from all mnaufactures hace a propritary chip made by one big name japanese electtronic firm.
If I am not incorrect the siemens system is installed in paris and paris is rather happy with its operation. That is all that matters.
You are incorrect. The Metra system installed in Paris does not use an rf DCS. It uses lossy transmission wire.
The question of dependence on a single supplier also matters, regardless of whether or not the system currently works.
"The question of dependence on a single supplier also matters, regardless of whether or not the system currently works."
Definitely. However, there are often provisions in contracts for putting software or other technical details in escrow. If the supplier goes bankrupt or leaves the business, the customer can get access to the technology and give it to another vendor. Not an ideal solution, but it's a lot better than nothing.
there are often provisions in contracts for putting software or other technical details in escrow. If the supplier goes bankrupt or leaves the business, the customer can get access to the technology and give it to another vendor. Not an ideal solution, but it's a lot better than nothing.
The problem is not only that tradecraft would be lost should the supplier stop supporting the product (bankurptcy, etc.). It is also that customer will be locked into a single and usually high priced supplier. The escrow solution does not address the single supplier problem.
In addition to the main CBTC contract, there is a separate "interoperability" engineering contract with Siemans and the other suppliers, intended to create a common standard. It is a design contract, already underway, with activity expected to pick up once the CBTC installation on the Canarsie is finalized. And I can tell you it isn't cheap. There are engineers who sit in my vicinity beavering away on interoperability. They travel often, and visit France as well as Germany. I'll mention tomarrow that Mr. Bauman has announced the end of the project. Maybe we can cut off the money (LOL).
But look at the cost savings of moving to one person train operation vs. two person train operation
If you don't think full time OPTO once automatic train operation get's all the kinks out then your crazy.
Interesting. Who pays for this seperate cottage industry of compatibility?
We all do ... it's called college. But once they graduate, they expect a check. :)
What is CBTC?
Communication-
Based
Train
Control
For lots and lots of words on this, look at the archives.
David
CBTC may one had had the concept of interoperability with trainsets in France but the data communications system that was to be originally implemented was in violation of FCC law. It was a microwave transponder system operated on an amateur radio band (2300-2404 mHz) on a secondary basis against radiolocation and amateur communications and supposedly dumped for a inductive loop comm system every 200 feet. Problem is in obtaining up to date information and the A Division is supposedly installing ATS which I am still trying to make contact with anyone involved. If anyone thinks I'm 'off the wall,' just go look up the FCC STAs for the Los Angeles Police Department and airborne surveillance cameras....one PD actually went so far as to have all fixed and rotor winged aircraft pilots licensed as radio amateurs to operate a 'video repeater system.'
BTW: Careful analysis of R142 technology will disclose the possibility of CBTC/ATS incorperation as there are empty slots in the system which can be used. Five car OPTO is the first step and has been sucessful. Integration of a Signals System ATS to comm the R142/R142A is next.........then elimination of the crew. Funny, we in private industry went through this over thirty years ago...we called it 'automation.' Of course, there will always be a human operator to monitor the systems and take control when systems fail...
until the 'Brain of Spock' is cloned. CI Peter
CBTC may one had had the concept of interoperability with trainsets in France but the data communications system that was to be originally implemented was in violation of FCC law. It was a microwave transponder system operated on an amateur radio band (2300-2404 mHz) on a secondary basis against radiolocation and amateur communications and supposedly dumped for a inductive loop comm system every 200 feet.
The Springboard RailPath DCS that was used sucessfully for the trials utilizes spread spectrum technology in the 2.4 GHz band. Such rf systems operate at reduced power and are legal in the United States. Its protocols are also part of the open TCP/IP standards. This means that standard off the shelf 802.11b hardware could be used with commodity pricing.
Siemens's previous systems, including Metra, had used lossy transmission lines. Using the same technology for a system retrofit would make CBTC prohibitively expensive. Rather than using an existing technology that uses open standards, This means that anybody could design equipment for an installation. It is not a question of trading a proprietary Springboard technology for one owned by Siemens. It also means that anybody could build equipment and Siemens could not control suppliers through licensing of their proprietary technology.
God, TCP/IP for life critial communications? What bonehead thought THAT up? Just what the NYCTA needs, a router going down and the entire subway grinding to a halt, with a few bumpskies scattered around.
Or, some pimply teenage 'hacker' type breaking into the system and playing smash-a-train.
IMHO, CBTC has a LOT of pittfalls, and the MTA had damm well better be careful here. Loss of communication in itself is going to be a big problem. Garbled data (despite redundant encoding), software errors, intentional intrusion, accidental intrusion, random HW failures, design flaws, does the train need a 'keep alive' signal to keep moving, what happens if it doesn't hear from anything - will it stop, can a train legitamately dissapear off the tracks. Oh, and physical - junk wacking the antennas, signal attenuation due to everything (microwave is so much fun), rats (What's that cooking smell?), third rail arcing (harmonic city, but not microwave at least). Inverter failures. Oh, the potential list of questions here is endless. Sure some of it applies to the existing system, but at least it's understood well.
And finally - will this actually improve anything materially enough to justify it over a more tranditional coded track circuit cab signal system?
Maybe the Patco approach is better than the BART one here....
--Or, some pimply teenage 'hacker' type breaking into the system and playing smash-a-train. --
That'll be ME!! ( Evil laugh) Bwahahahaha ( Big evil grin)
The MTA currently does not know where exactly trains are
Stop being a neysayer
Paris is not exactly spotlessly clean
In fact NYC is cleaner in some places
"And finally - will this actually improve anything materially enough to justify it over a more tranditional coded track circuit cab signal system?"
With the proper software, properly tested (yes, those are two giant ifs), CBTC will provide the information that tells the train operator and C/R exactly where the train ought to be for high tph service.
Trains will be able to be spaced closer together without compromising safety, finally allowing 40 tph operation even under NYCT's ultra-cautious litigation-avoidance mentality.
In particular, not only can the T/O know how far away the train in front is, they can know how fast it's going. And if it's stopped, the software or the T/O can slow down the current train, while if it's moving that might not be necessary.
None of this will be easy, but it's not impossible either. It just takes time and competent employees, both of the NYCT and the manufacturer.
what happens if it doesn't hear from anything - will it stop
Just for information. I understand that if MNRR looses signaling it triggers restricted speed indicator (15 MPH). If the operator does get it to that speed in a predetermined amount of time --- CACHOW !!
TCP/IP for life critial communications...
CBTC is communications based. Status messages from trains to wayside computers, command messages from wayside computers to individual trains, messages to and from supervisory consoles, etc., etc. There is nothing inherently different from the messages carried than in any other context. The question is whether to use an existing and proven technology or to try to invent something new.
Any communications system will have at least one weak link or failure mode that can disable communications to a single node. There are techniques that can limit the scope of such individual failures. They are not always applied in laying out tcp/ip networks. So, a single router failure (most likely an incorrectly configured route table) can affect many nodes. OTOH, many features that are in tcp/ip for redundant network topologies are not always used. One would assume that such techniques would be used in any tcp/ip network that requires a fair amount of uptime would use such techniques. This would be true for NYCT, whether they used an open or proprietary system.
some pimply teenage 'hacker' type breaking into the system and playing smash-a-train...
The NYCT system for communications does not use the Internet as the communications link between the various computers and supervisory stations. I do not recommend that it use it. They are using a private fibre network that is physically isolated from the Internet.
However, it is using rf as the communications medium to and from trains. Such transmissions can be intercepted and compromised. There are built-in encryption techniques to prevent unauthorized listeners from discovering the underlying data or hacking the system with spurious messages.
The hacking risk for the rf links is present whether an open 802.11b standard or a proprietary system is used. The use of an open standard means that more hacking equipment is available. However, properly using the built-in encryption techniques will address the problem. However, neither rf system would be safe from organized, 9/11 like sabotage. The only alternative would be to use a system with very limited rf dispersion - a leaky transmission wire. The problem with such security is that its cost would make the entire CBTC project economically unviable.
CBTC has a LOT of pittfalls...some of it applies to the existing system, but at least it's understood well.
Reliable communications systems have been used for decades in other contexts. Their pitfalls are well understood. They may not be understood by TA or railroad industry personnel.
will this actually improve anything materially...
No it will not. CBTC will not improve service levels over the existing fixed block system. The use of an rf based DCS is supposed to give it a cost advantage over conventional systems.
It does have another advantage - a long gestation period. The system will not be able to operate at any supposed increased service level until the entire system is implemented. This will take decades. The project managers and executives will have retired by then and will be beyond punishment.
"No it will not. CBTC will not improve service levels over the existing fixed block system. The use of an rf based DCS is supposed to give it a cost advantage over conventional systems."
False statement. There are significant system flexibility advantages offered by CBTC. The fact that you haven't a clue about them doesn't mean they don't exist.
You'd be far better off sticking to math, Stephen. At least there you know what you're talking about. :0)
There are significant system flexibility advantages offered by CBTC
Name one that cannot be implemented using a block system.
The most obvious one is that with a fixed block system, you cannot redefine the spacing and speeds of trains on the fly as needed.
If you install enough signals close enough together, you can do whatever you want, of course. But the whole point is to eliminate the need for that.
But the whole point is to eliminate the need for that.
Why?
Does the Paris 14 line (the only automated one, last I knew) run on a similar microwave system?
Does the Paris 14 line (the only automated one, last I knew) run on a similar microwave system?
No, it does not. It uses a leaky transmission line.
Are there relays in place in the 'J' line from Myrtle to Broadway ENY. I have noticed what looks like transmitters on some ends of stations between that stretch.
from the way it sounds, that was a very good business move Siemens made. make something bad and make sure everyone has to come to you because your bad stuff is only good for what you have. it may stay this way unless the authority trashes the whole project and keep the trains manual. that would be much better i feel
Why would that be better
Labor costs are what kill you in any business. In order for NYC transit to continue to provide safe afordable transport in the future it most automate much of it's aging labor intensive infrastructure
Automatic train operation has been around for over 30 years and it is about time NYCT catches up with the times
i think its better because i am for humans running the machine. not machines running the human's job.
Nah, you haven't caught the mantra of the future ... "Men as machines, working for machines as men" ... adjust as necessary based on gland classifications and/or preferences ...
Well the CBTC signal mondernization will go in the annals of NYCT like the 2nd Ave Subway, the proposed Bleecker Street tunnel transfer from the IND to the Uptown #6, and the cost of renovating 116th St/Lenox Ave station (not the mention the time it took to restore THAT station
"$1.50 $2.00 and a dream." :)
Humans do run the computer systems that run the trains. Just in a more orderly manner
Why do we need to spend $300 million a year for a clerk dressed up in a silly uniform do what a MVM does so gracefully
Why do we need a person to push and pull levers and potentiially develope repettive stress injuries for s task that a software program programed by a human can do more gracefully
If humans have followed your attitude through out the course of man kind, we all be still living in caves eating tasteless meat over a fire
The New York Stoock exchange handles more transactions per minute utilizing technology then it did all day with a 1/3 of the workers it did 30 years ago. An commisions paid by the average joe droped to $5 a trade form $70
If machines did everything, no one has a job.
That's not a concern.
What is of concern is unwillingness to update one's job skills. If you're complacent about that, you have no right to complain if you find yourself unemployed.
NO new jobs are created
MVM's - MVM refiller, maintainers, builders, system administrators.
In my industry product improvements roll out every 18 months. I must keep myself informed of new advances.
There were a time when each elavator had an operator. Where did all the elavator operators go? They found something else to do
The only people left without jobs in the end are those who do not educated themselfs and keep thier job skills current.
Unemployment gives you $5000 educational allowence to update ones skills. Most people don't take advantage of the opurtunity. I updated my skills and got a much better job then I got laid off from.
Gone are the days of being lazy in High School and getting a do nothing job in a token boothe. The tax payers of new york will no longer pay for it
In my industry product improvements roll out every 18 months. I must keep myself informed of new advances.
It's unfortuante that NYCT and the railroading industry did not realized, when they wrote some of the specifications for CBTC. A lot of their specifications are 8 years behind current technology.
Impossible. Failure is not one of the allowable outcomes.
The future of NYCT depends on this!
What are we going to do!?!?!? The system is doomed!!!
SHUT DOWN THE SUBWAY AND START WALKING. COVER THE RAILS WITH PLYWOOD AND PLACE DRINKING WATER FOUNTAINS EVERY 800 FEET.
:0)
That just means it could be failing badly, and no one would admit it.
Why write a specification for CBTC and then immediately go against it?
I'll take the relays, please. Maybe we could bring carrier code-control back to the BMT. Modern enough?
Or, to quote Ed Harris from Apollo 13, failure is not an option.
I have 2 questions, what is the daily ridership between Far Rocakaway, Queens and 207 street Manhattan. Also the daily ridership between Lefferts Blvd, which is in Richmond Hill, Queeens, comon MTA correct your maps and 207 street.
They say more people ride out to Far Rockaway, but how much? 30,000, 40,000?
Lets try to get some numbers here. I do belive myself that more do ride out to the Rockaways than to Lefferts but I am not of the numbers.
TA has no way of knowing how many people travel from one point to another. The closest they can get is the number of paid fares entering at the stations.
If someone can find it, Newsday had the results from a fare evasion survey back in 1991. The number of evaders range widely from very low to very high. But I believe the number of paid fares listed was more accurate.
That what to those checkers count in the summer when people get on and off the car? (Traffic Checkers I think is the city title).
They count the number of people getting on/off the train. Not asking each and everyone person where they're coming/going.
Actually, NYCT has Traffic Checkers who collect various types of data. I don't know whether Traffic Checkers are ever stationed at, say, Rockaway Boulevard, to check arriving (northbound)/leaving (southbound) loads on Lefferts trains vs. Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park trains, but it's certainly feasible. Perhaps one of the Traffic Checker SubTalkers will elaborate.
In 2001, there were 5,455,263 registrations at the 14 Rockaway Line stations (both sides, Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, including Aqueduct Racetrack) and 3,623,828 registrations at the 3 Lefferts Boulevard stations. Of the 17 total stations we're talking about here, Lefferts Boulevard was the busiest, with 2,258,782 passengers.
David
Okay one thing here. Why does the MTA call Lefferts Blvd. Ozone Park when the station is in Richmond Hill?
"Why does the MTA call Lefferts Blvd. Ozone Park when the station is in Richmond Hill?"
Liberty Ave. is more or less the border between Ozone Park and Richmond Hill.
Actually Lefferts/Liberty is in South Richmond Hill. Ozone Park starts on the west side of 107 Street.
Richmond Hill is further north of Lefferts Blvd. The old Village of Richmond Hill was centered around the library at Lefferts and Hillside Ave. It existed as part of Jamaica until NYC took it over in 1898.
Why does the MTA call Lefferts Blvd. Ozone Park when the station is in Richmond Hill?
Liberty Ave. is more or less the border between Ozone Park and Richmond Hill.
Besides, Richmond Hill's already got the J line. This way Ozone Park has a line too.
Can a 75 foot train run from on the J,M and Z line from the bowery to Court street? If not then how much would it cost to modify the tunnel for a 75 foot train too fit?
I'm pretty sure that the tunnel up to Chambers Street and through the Manhattan Bridge leads can fit a 75 footer. Where else would they turn a 75 footer that took the wrong lineup? Farther north, I don't know about southbound, but northbound there used to be a pretty hard turn into Canal Street right before the station but that's changing soon with the new alignment. Southbound, I haven't railfanned there for some time.
Yes 75 ft cars can get that far. Matter of fact they were doing so far more than what the TA wants, they removed the punch from the 10 car marker at Court St.
I think it can go at least as far as Chambers. I'm not too sure about Chambers to Essex.
The elevated problems, I think there is a problem at Marcy (by the Tower), at Myrtle for turning M trains, and at the S curve by Cypress Hills.
BTW, did the Banker's Specials from Bay Ridge to Chambers ever use 75 Foot cars?
BTW, did the Banker's Specials from Bay Ridge to Chambers ever use 75 Foot cars?
The first 75-foot cars were the R44s, delivered (IIRC) in 1972. The "Bankers Specials" you refer to, by which I assume you mean the Nassau St-Manny B connection, ended by 1967.
:-) Andrew
Alright, maybe I don't mean the "Banker's Specials". What I mean is the R that used to run to Chambers, which ended I guess in the late 80's or early 90's. Did the R ever use R44-46's when it ran to Chambers?
No ... but the "RR" did ... :)
Ahhhhhhhhhh!
Okay, I don't mean the Banker's Specials, and I don't mean the "R". I guess I mean the RR.
Apparently the RR did run R44's or R46's to Chambers/Nassau. :)
Actually, it was the RR but that's OK, all's forgiven, now come inside or you'll catch your depth. :)
Okay maybe I can type some more when I stop laughing......
The Chambers St. RR most likely used 60-footers. AFAIK those trains did not necessarily reverse direction at Chambers St but instead kept going to Fresh Pond Yard or ENY Yard, either running light or carrying revenue passengers.
Speaking of Chambers St., I was under the impression at one time that it had six tracks instead of four (not taking into consideration the provision for two additional tracks behind the eastern wall) and that trains could either continue through the station or terminate from either end with a setup similar to Canal St. I have since been proven wrong.
Speaking of Chambers St., I was under the impression at one time that it had six tracks instead of four
It's easy to assume that if not a regular user or the station. The station seems so huge, and has so many platforms. Usually when we think of a multi platform station with all the platforms such as Chambers you think:
platform-track-track-platform-track-track-platform-track-track-platform-track-track-platform - 5 platforms, 8 tracks
with Chambers, course, instead only having single tracks between it's platforms:
(dismantled platform)-track-platform-track-platform-track-pltform-track-platform - 5(4) platforms, 4 tracks - more platforms that tracks!
The 75 footers DID have to go back and I can verify that there WERE a few of them that did the short run on the RR, then went back home to 95th when they were done.
Thanks. I would imagine the 75-footers could clear the curve from Canal St. to Bowery without too much difficulty.
Hard to say, I was coming from the other direction, but I know I've seen them there. Unless a big hand lifted the lid of the station and put them on the other track, they would have had to turn around somehow, somewhere. But back in those days, only the biggie trains had the whole window in green with the RR in it in white. :)
There were no 75 footers to 95th St. until the 1987 N/R switch, and the R special may have been discontinued by or around that time. When it ran, it used Eastern div. equipment (R-30 redbirds, R-42), and any 75 footers would have had to be 4 or 6 cars, and would not have interchanged with the 8 car Forest Hills R.
Ya got me thinking about that ... mighta been 42's (I forgot they were 60 footers) but they were "air conditioned" which was still something "special" and NOTICED at the time ...
The R42's did look a bit like the R44-46's when they were newer with their blue stripe.
Could be ... wasn't one of my home lines, so I can't swear to the clarity of my memory ... hell, I can't even remember what I had for dinner. Oh, just got told I didn't have dinner yet. :)
The R42's even look a bit like the LIRR M1's at quick glance, especially on the front.
BTW, with those big letters on the front when delivered, there was no doubt what route train was coming into a station!
They WERE hard to miss, though I'm sure some of the RR's I saw had the black surround with the peekaboo circle hole too. But yeah, saw some of those too ...
IIRC the original R-44 and R-46 route curtains included a circle around the letter, plus the letter itself was smaller than the ones on the R-40Ms and R-42s.
Correct. Still large enough to substitute for the missing marker lights.
Actually I think you have the RR's backwards
Damn! I knew something didn't look right about it!
Any train of 75' cars may not pass the 10-car marker 600' past the crossover north of Broad.
There is a sign underneath the 10-car stop explicitly stating that.
The crossover is so the trains may return to Brooklyn without passing "go", or collecting 200 dollars.
But can trains turn arround at Bowery? Without disrupting the through (J)(M)(Z) service that is.
When there was a Nassau Street (R) back in the day it used to terminate arround at Chambers.
:-) Andrew
Not with the current track configuration nor with the planned one.
Trains can turn on the middle track at Essex, but when the north platforms at Canal and the Bowery are abandoned, through trains will use the middle track.
A train of 75-foot cars can run as far as Bowery (really, Essex Street). However, the platforms on the Nassau Street Line aren't long enough to handle a standard 8-car train of 75-footers (the side platform at Essex Street comes closest at 590 feet).
David
They can presumebly make it to Chambers. For whatever reason, either because they think if the train makes it to Chambers, it might go further, or because of the platform lengths (you still need to make the people walk through to get off the train at Broad), they prefer to have it turn at Broad, requiring a double reverse move and delaying J and Z (if the train happens to take the wrong lineup during those 120 minutes of the day when the Z actually runs on a weekday).
Crazy of them to rebuild both Broad and Fulton and not extend them (Chambers could easily be extended a bit southward without rebuilding). Canal-Bway Jct. also got or are getting significant rebuilds, without even a thought. You could have had full length service as far as Bway-Ject, (and relay on the yard leads, or if they had kept 2 more tracks at Atlantic), and then you could do something like run the V out there. As well as making it easier in the Montague in the case of wrong routes, and allowing immediate reroutes when there is a problem in or north of Whitehall.
But it seems like they want to forever keep this section of the system isolated.
You could have had full length service as far as Bway-Ject, (and relay on the yard leads, or if they had kept 2 more tracks at Atlantic), and then you could do something like run the V out there.
All the Broadway El stations are/were being rebuilt. They could have extended them while doing thses rebuilding/renovations. Although Myrtle/Broadway may be a bit harder to rebuild/extend. Actually, they could have done extensions all the way to Canarsie, then allowing the V to run to canarsie via Chrystie, or have some train from 95th Street (like the old RR) out to Canarsie.
Crazy of them to rebuild both Broad and Fulton and not extend them (Chambers could easily be extended a bit southward without rebuilding). Canal-Bway Jct. also got or are getting significant rebuilds, without even a thought. You could have had full length service as far as Bway-Ject, (and relay on the yard leads, or if they had kept 2 more tracks at Atlantic), and then you could do something like run the V out there. As well as making it easier in the Montague in the case of wrong routes, and allowing immediate reroutes when there is a problem in or north of Whitehall.
But it seems like they want to forever keep this section of the system isolated.
Can a 75 foot train run from on the J,M and Z line from the bowery to Court street?
Actually, I beleive that te trains on that line are 480 feet long.
: ) Elias
During GOs in the early 80s when problems with the Manhattan Bridge became the focus of attention, R-44 D trains were re-routed through the Montague Street tubes by taking the 6th Ave-Broadway Brookyn Chrystie Street connection south of Broadway Lafayette. The train would roll through Essex Street and head up the Williamsburg Bridge until it cleared the switch and signal out of Essex. It would then run express to Dekalb. Some of the passengers called it the "Essex Street Shuffle". You could leave 205th Street in the first car and arrive at Brighton Beach in the last car without changing seats!
I rode one or more such D trains. They were not R44's or any other 75 footer. They had only one motorman. After stopping the train on the WB ramp, he would change ends by walking through the train. They used 60 foot cars on that run.
Hey, we spell our first names the same and we both like the Brighton line. Cool.
Maybe you're right, but I'm pretty darn sure that I was on more than one R-44 that picked up a T/O at Essex and immediately reversed once it got up the ramp. You know, a couple of times the shuffle ended up back at Broadway Lafayette. Maybe those were the times that I got the R-44s. Boy were people pissed when that happened.....
75' car trains can operate as far as myrtle av theoretically. But at that point, they would not be able to take the M train's curve if an M was coming in the other direction at the same time (can't have 2 M's on curve simultaneously.) This would further slow an already slow junction. They could operate on the J until that S-curve on the line, but why would you do that?
I've gotten lots of great comments on my past two photos. I just want to say thanks to all you guys for being so supportive. So here is my third photo...It is a bit different than the other 2. So let me know what you all think.
Thanks Again
Anthony
And I checked it (Again) it does work in the preview feature. :)
KEEPER! F train at Warp 6. :)
That is beautiful. How did you take that photo?
I had a friend of mine operating that day. He operates fast!! Anyway We were in an R-32. And I was messing with the camera settings. I adjusted the shutter to allow more light in(Just like the R-143 Photo I put on here less than a week ago). The train was not rocking from side to side so thats how I was able to get such a nice shot.
I Give it 2 thumbs up
Very nice picture!
You do realize, I hope, that you could try to place some of these in magazines or in a book.
Magazines will pay freelance photographers for pictures - depending on their needs. And not just transit or news - how about an art rag?
Your photo is good enough to be published.
How much?
I don't know, since I'm not in that business. But perhaps you can browse through magazines in one of the big stores that carry 1,000 different titles and call the editorial offices of selected ones to ask about photo submission policies and rates.
Yeah I've been told that before. But I wouldnt know where to start. But I do print these photos out. So maybe I can show them around and see who would take them
See my other response to you. Good luck.
Great shot Tony, you're getting there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Great picture, Tony.
Looks like a nightmare!
Since I'm not sleeping, I'd say Lexingtom/63 St
Really? I first thought 5th Avenue/53rd.
I'm sure, Lexington/53 St
Maybe Tony will tell us...
Its 63rd and Lex. The station where you have to walk (Out of the system) to the 6 for a free transfer.
Very, very nice.
Reminds me of 2001:A Space Odyssey...
...next stop, Jupiter....Dave.....
Really Great. Super Visual Effect.
Great photo! One of the best I've seen! Just awesome!
--Brian
Great pic! Keep them coming!
Beautiful man! Hey, does anyone know what station it is? I'm pretty sure it's some station on the F though..?
Captain, give me warp 2!
--Mark
lol. Actually it reminds me of the beginning of the Space Mountain ride at Disney.
solitary, venturesome, divergent.
;-) Sparky
solitary, venturesome, divergent.
;-) Sparky
i too have a collection of those type of shots ..
call em "station blurs" or " rail blurs "
By the way I took that photo with the same type of Sony camera you had on the D-Type trip with the Steeple Cab
i own the 1999 dscs30 ( discontinued model ) ....
and i still own some one piece 35mm types minolta types
i used to shoot with KODAK GOLD 400 and hold the camera on the
railfan window block all meter cells with tape on all underground
shotz and hold on to it for dear life .
also i shot some lirr blurs at night like that
the bucking broncos do go up and down and a time exposure will get
that big time !
so called station blurs are a nice thing to do remember to write
down when and where you do it .........he he
lol
i have 2 yahoo groups on that camera 1999 discontinued
----------------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30andOtherSonyDightalStillCameras/
---------------------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30SonyCybershotDigitalCamera/
-------------------------------------------------------------
you can join this group and post your train pics as long as they
were taken by a digital camera
_---------------------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalTransitPhotographers/
anyway check it out and see if you like it .........
thankz salaamallah
The New York Division, Electric Railroaders’ Association is pleased to announce a trip on the Newark City Subway and a tour of the new Bloomfield Shops on Friday, November 29, 2002 (the day after Thanksgiving). The trip will begin at the departure platform for City Subway cars in Penn Station – Newark. Please be on the platform, with a valid ticket (purchased on your own for $1.10; seniors, $0.50) prior to 10:00 AM, as we plan to board the vehicle that is scheduled to leave the platform at 10:03 AM sharp. We will arrive at Grove Street Station at 10:23 AM and take the short walk over to the Shops for our tour. In connection with the tour, you should have ample opportunity to photograph the PCC cars that are in storage there. Following the tour, we will board a car at Grove Street Station (after each of you purchases and/or validates a one-way ticket) and make several photo stops en route back to Newark Penn Station. It is expected that the entire trip and tour will last approximately 3 hours. The ticket price of $15.00 includes the shop tour and an organized trip to and from Grove Street. Transportation to and from Newark Penn Station and your individual tickets for the ride on the City Subway are on your own. For further updates and information, please call (718) 784-3643 evenings. This trip and tour operates rain or shine and starts at 10:00 AM on Friday, November 29th. TICKETS WILL BE SOLD AND ISSUED DURING THE TRIP DUE TO THE SHORT NOTICE.
The New York Division is also operating a Redbird Fan Trip on Sunday, December 8th. Please see the notice in the “Upcoming Events” section of this site for further information. You must mail your trip money in no later than November 15th to avoid a $10 jump in the price.
Sounds like a great way to get rid of some of the bird !
Thanks for posting.
did anyone see LIRRs new signal yet? according to my friends in LIRR, there was a new signal put up near jamaica by the Atlantic branch headed westbound, i understand it looks similar to our color lights in Metro North
It's been in service since Thursday at 9:59 AM.......
Would that be the fix for the last collision that happened there at Jamaica?
I think it's more the LIRRs first attempt at standardizing signals.
If anything it is more a cost thing than standardization.
Sadurday I found it strange to see a LIRR signal near Jamaica with green vs. white lights.
I do think they serve a worthy purpose with that. We sometimes laugh at what we find in Rider Diaries, etc., but I like a lot of what Gene Russianoff has done over the years.
So I'm reproducing their most recent appeal. Consider supporting it:
-----------------
Dear rider-
Paying more for less? That's what the MTA may be planning.
This week the agency announced budget cuts which could mean dirtier subways, longer lines at token booths and longer waits for trains.
What can you do?
Please add you name to the thousands who have already spoken out against an increase in the transit fare! Take one minute for fair and adequate funding for city transit and sign the online petition at http://www.straphangers.org . Sign the petition, then tell all your friends. You're help is needed!
You'll also be able get all the facts and find other ways to take action. Our Fare Hike Newsroom will get you all the latest news about a possible hike and service cuts.
Thank you for your support!
--------------------------
I got the e-mail today.
It's a lot to battle...I think they better focus their efforts on one thing, and that should be to block service cuts. You don't want to divide the troops by fighting two tough issues at once.
I see your point, though they are not unrelated.
I've signed their petition, so to speak. I hope you do too.
But what does the petition say?
Don't raise fares or cut service.
Wow, tough well thought-out positions there!
The mplied position is more direct state aid for subways.
And the point of signing it is (do I really have to explain this?) to maximize the number of signatures they deliver to Albany and to the MTA.
Oh, so there position is "give us more money."
They sure go for the difficult solutions, don't they?
"They sure go for the difficult solutions, don't they?"
1) Do you have a better one?
2) Are you against Albany's allocating direct state aid for subways?
3) If you did have a better solution, would you actually havbe taken the time to put it on paper and send it to your state assemblyperson, state senator and the MTA?
Unless you can answer "Yes" to all three questions above, you might want to think about what your post really says.
"They sure go for the difficult solutions, don't they?"
1) Do you have a better one?
2) Are you against Albany's allocating direct state aid for subways?
3) If you did have a better solution, would you actually have taken the time to put it on paper and send it to your state assemblyperson, state senator and the MTA?
If you answer No to 1) or 3) above, then your post becomes hypocritical.
"They sure go for the difficult solutions, don't they?"
1) Do you have a better one?
Yes, many. And I've described them on this forum and in my writings going back 40 years.
2) Are you against Albany's allocating direct state aid for subways?
It's a big state, Ron. Whatever goesin one pocket comes out of another. Advocacy needs to be smarter than that.
3) If you did have a better solution, would you actually have taken the time to put it on paper and send it to your state assemblyperson, state senator and the MTA?
I've done more than that, and recently, and on issues more complex than this. And I've found that you now need to battle not only the State, but also advocacy groups who find your agenda "off message."
If you answer No to 1) or 3) above, then your post becomes hypocritical
You are a very intelligent and thoughtful person, but too quick to turn to the ad hominem.
"I've done more than that, and recently, and on issues more complex than this. And I've found that you now need to battle not only the State, but also advocacy groups who find your agenda "off message." "
Yes, you are correct. It can be frustrating. One of the big challenges is to find common ground so you can multiply the effect your own advocacy has. Many voices singing together are better than one.
I commend you on your efforts.
"f you answer No to 1) or 3) above, then your post becomes hypocritical
You are a very intelligent and thoughtful person, but too quick to turn to the ad hominem."
I apologize if I implied a personal attack on your character.
However, it's really not ad hominem, at all. I do express impatience with posts (not people) which throw rocks at others. Perhaps the Straphangers would have said something similar about your post and Selkirk's. There is a distinct difference between that and ad hominem.
For what it's worth, I'm not INTENDING to throw rocks at Straphangers ... but some of what they're doing suggests an incredible naievity about the political landscape in this state today. The liberals and the democrats are gone - even Shelley Silver barely hangs on to any ability to serve the "advocacy groups" and what I'm trying to say is that the same old tired mentality of "we sign a petition and the politicians cower in fear" is as tired as petitioning the Politburo in Novosibirsk.
Times have changed. Politicians don't even get to READ the bills they're voting on, the ONLY way to get an issue heard is on the editorial page of UPSTATE newspapers, but really even THAT is ineffective now that the election's over and people will forget all transgressions in two years ... the ONLY way to get their ear in a meaningful way is to pay the politicos CASH (too late for that now too) so that you're on the "contributors list" so that you're entitled to your 10 minutes of face time per term. That's how it goes.
So the question is, what are the names of NYPIRG's lobbyists, and how much time does Bruno owe them this term to say what needs to be said? Sorry, but that's how things work now - petitions are useless. Politics is a CASH AND CARRY business nowadays ...
Your points noted.
"the ONLY way to get their ear in a meaningful way is to pay the politicos CASH (too late for that now too) so that you're on the "contributors list" so that you're entitled to your 10 minutes of face time per term. That's how it goes."
No way - it is NEVER too late to give $$$. The only questiuon is are you giving $$, $$$, $$$$, or $$$$$.
Good point (especially the new rate after an election) ... imagine though if we had had people that listened to us who were saying this BEFORE the election ("politics don't belong here") and could have applied the grease and evoked a meaningful promise (we know what those are worth) out of the politicos ... it isn't like we didn't KNOW this was coming ...
But until NYPIRG turns into a BANK for politicos to draw from, their voice is meaningless. The government was sold a long time ago and signing petitions is about as meaningful as posting on subtalk. Makes you feel better, but doesn't accomplish much. It's ONLY when they're up for re-election that they worry. And only TWO incumbents were defeated statewide ... so there's no fear factor at ALL once the elections are over.
I just can't believe anyone waited until NOW to go after this. :(
I'm throwing rocks at the Campaign. Why would I do such a thing?
Advocacy groups have to advocate intelligently. The Straphangers' Campaign wants to see no fare hike and no cuts. There is a $663 million hole and it needs to disappear. It doesn't go away by increasing service, but by increasing revenue. And to this very day, they do not have a plan. Under the new MTA structure, we may be able to adjust that formula to get $325 million allocated towards the city, but there will be NO chance of a commuter tax because the NYC suburban resident who works in NYC gets hit THREE TIMES! They have to pay a commuter tax, a higher subway fare, and a higher commuter rail fare. These people will BLOCK the commuter tax and rightfully so.
What I would advise the Campaign to do is to find out HOW this gap was caused and where are fare hikes going to be spend. Then, you need to find out your base of people to appeal to. Then, you need to promote why your system works and NOT WHY SOMEONE'S DOESN'T
I agree with the general thrust of your post, but you're misinterpreting what they are doing.
The Straphangers intent was to craft a very simple message that could repeated over and over again in soundbites, on posters, in other venues. "End the Crush" was a slogan advocating for the purchase of new subway cars, for example.
In venues like Subtalk, just putting up a slogan on a post doesn't accomplish anything. Ditto for writing to your elected officials. But it does work for focusing attention on an issue - even if the slogan itself doesn't say how you're going to solve a problem.
I think it's great that they're making noise about this. It's up to ALL of us (Subtalkers especially, since this group is so knowledgable) to then communicate coherently ideas to our govt and the MTA.
The Straphangers have come up with specific proposals for issues in the past. Some were good (like discounts for riders), some were stupid (like the recent G train business - sorry, Sparky,); I think the Campaign should put more details up on its website to answer your criticism, which is valid.
The greatest strength of their site is the objective data collection and reporting they do. That's good stuff - you can see what they measured, verify it for yourself if you want, draw your own conclusions (agree or disagree with them, whatever the case may be).
Please don't take any offense to this, but think for a second. Just how MUCH influence does anybody think NYPIRG has with Joe Bruno? Place your bets ... place your bets ...
It's not even worth it to bet!
I dunno ... people STILL buy Looto tickets. I'd say there's better odds on Joey. :)
Not directly relevant. As long as they can effectively support Sheldon Silver (that's the point), who cares?
Shelley's just 1/3 of the Triumvirat ... last time I checked, a 66-33 vote left the 33% faction on the losing side. I don't think Shelley needs NYPIRG telling him that a fare hike will hurt the city, I'd expect that to be a GIVEN. But for the issue to be WON, then either Paturkey or Bruno has to be convinced to sock it to someone else. That's the point I've been trying to make ... I don't see Bruno giving a QWAP about NYC (Rent Control, anyone?) and Paturkey's been reupped so what does he owe? Therein lies the rub.
All this posturing should have been done *BEFORE* the election, back when it mattered. It DOESN'T anymore - the Triumvirat has a completely free hand now ... it's too late. :(
They're opposed to raising fares, but they're also opposed to reductions in service. Maybe NYPIRG would like to divert some of its own state subsidy, or the surcharges it imposes on state college students, to help fund public transportation, instead of wasting money whining about it.
"They're opposed to raising fares, but they're also opposed to reductions in service. "
Yes. They want to see more direct state aid to the subways, and they are right about that.
"Maybe NYPIRG would like to divert some of its own state subsidy, or the surcharges it imposes on state college students, to help fund public transportation, instead of wasting money whining about it."
That's a a silly thing to say. They're focusing public attention on support for subways, and even if I don't agree with their entire agenda, they are exerting pressure where pressure needs exerting.
As for you, why are you whining about the Straphangers? At least they're working constructively for transit support. What have you done lately?
"They're opposed to raising fares, but they're also opposed to reductions in service. "
Yes. They want to see more direct state aid to the subways, and they are right about that.
"Maybe NYPIRG would like to divert some of its own state subsidy, or the surcharges it imposes on state college students, to help fund public transportation, instead of wasting money whining about it."
That's a very silly thing to say. They're focusing public attention on support for subways, and even if I don't agree with their entire agenda, they are exerting pressure where pressure needs exerting.
As for you, why are you whining about the Straphangers? At least they're working constructively for transit support. What have you done lately?
Their argument for more state aid to the subways is that farebox revenue is unjustly higher on subways than on commuter rail. The only problem with this line of reasoning is that higher state subsidies for LIRR and MNRR are necessary to maintain the lines' existence. The fares are considerably higher than transit; take away the subsidy and make them excessively high, and their riders could just as easily drive or take a private bus.
NYPIRG says that more state aid is the answer to avoiding a fare hike and improving service (including four minute headways on the G train and "many more new buses and subway cars"). Yet thay also demand more aid for state colleges and new programs without raising tuition, and refinancing the Superfund program. The state budget deficit is at least $2.8 billion (Albany's own figure; other independent groups estimate it to be as much as $10 billion). The old adage about bleeding stones applies. Also, you should read the Rider Diaries; you'd learn that Straphangers' Project Coordinator, Michael Hernandez, is not only against a fare hike and demanding of service increases, but he also advocates eliminating advertising from the subways.
I do have a solution, albeit an unpopular one, that doesn't require lobbying, letter-writing, or demonstrating - a fare increase. Sevem years is a long time to go without one. I know I'd be pretty upset if I went seven years without a raise. Fare discounts would make it easier on commuters, so occasional riders and visitors would be hit with most of the burden. Maybe it would push some of the occasional riders to take advantage of discounts and ride more often to soften the blow.
Remember what the 5¢ fare restriction did to the IRT and BMT.
"Also, you should read the Rider Diaries; you'd learn that Straphangers' Project Coordinator, Michael Hernandez, is not only against a fare hike and demanding of service increases, but he also advocates eliminating advertising from the subways. "
So you've found something significant amid the drivel. I didn't read the Diaries (I used to occasionally) and I missed it. More power to you!
Sounds like Hernandez is barking up the wrong tree on the advertising. Does he say why? (His opinion on Rider Diaries is not necessarily the official viewpoint of the organization, however).
I read their electronic newsletter every week, at least the headlines, but I don't spend much time on their web site ... at lot of dribble.
Actually, a lot of useful statistics (I ignore Rider Diaries, though. That is dribble). You should pay more attention to their website - you might actually learn something.
Really, Ronnie...it seems like you are advocating them...I am puzzled at how they gather statistics though...
"Really, Ronnie...it seems like you are advocating them...I am puzzled at how they gather statistics though..."
You're right. I like many of the things they do. They employ both paid staff and volunteers to watch train lines and record data regarding arrivals and how much litter is on the floor of each train.
The Straphangers' political campaign was key in persuading NYCT to introduce the MetroCard. They persuaded many legislators in Albany in the early 1980's to support setting up up a Capital Plan system, and fund it.
Do I like everything they do? No, some of it (like the Gtrain protest) is silly. But they're entitled to disagree with me.
I give credit where credit is due. Subtalk is a great place to exchange ideas, but when it comes to actually supporting the subway by contacting legislators, communicating with MTA, and attending hearings, Subtalkers mostly sit on their asses and whine on line.
Are you advocating Subtalkers? :0)
Ahem ... I would argue that the politicians actually READ what gets written here more often than on known "commie conspirator groups." If someone writes up a train crew member on the other place, nothing much happens. Name an interval, give a car number, or say "they said something naughty about Bombardier" then things happen when they're said here. I've even been contacted by Bruno staffers demanding to know why I've got such a foul attitude. I told them. Still ain't got DSL though. :)
"Ahem ... I would argue that the politicians actually READ what gets written here more often than on known "commie conspirator groups." If someone writes up a train crew member on the other place, nothing much happens. "
Don't flatter yourself too much. The Straphangers can legitimately claim credit for helping establish the Capital Plan process, the campaign against graffitti, approval for the the MetroCard project, and being cooperative advocates on the Manhattan Borough President's Second Av Task Force.
Writing up crew members isn't what they're about - nor should it be.
There are some great ideas on Subtalk, but they don't get translated into anything meaningful most of the time unless Subtalkers do something with it.
I've had ideas (which I've bounced around Subtalk for feedback) accepted and implemented by the MTA, but only after writing a lot of letters, showing up at hearings and following up with the pols and key staffers.
And yes, there are others on Subtalk who bring ideas back into agency offices. And that's good.
But when people sit on their lazy asses and do nothing at all (most of the time), what gets posted on Subtalk doesn't amount to a hill of cow manure in the scheme of things. It's information, but nothing comes of it.
I *do* agree with you, believe it or not ... but NYPIRG has pretty much blown its political capitol in ALBANY ... endorsing the Greens didn't help matters on a political basis either. That said, the only way their point gains any credibility is INDEED for the public to rise up and demand independently. I should have said that but didn't think I would need to. But you're absolutely right.
The bad news though is cuts WILL have to be made, it's only the CHOICES of what's cut that will matter, the state is in the financial crapper and there's no getting around that. They'll be cutting LIRR and MNRR too ya know, and THEIR advocates, who actually provided campaign ca$h are far more likely to be heard than people in the city who didn't ante up cash and are seen solely as a drain on the treasury. That's the mentality among the lawgivers in Albany, and they're the ones who will untlimately decide who gets what, and WHERE.
The bad news though is cuts WILL have to be made, it's only the CHOICES of what's cut that will matter, the state is in the financial crapper and there's no getting around that. They'll be cutting LIRR and MNRR too ya know, and THEIR advocates, who actually provided campaign ca$h are far more likely to be heard than people in the city who didn't ante up cash and are seen solely as a drain on the treasury. That's the mentality among the lawgivers in Albany, and they're the ones who will untlimately decide who gets what, and WHERE.
Which brings up a very astute point recently raised in the Post. Everyone likes to whine about how the legislators in Albany always give the city a raw deal, but proportional representation being what it is, many of those legislators were elected by, yes, city voters!
In my opinion, city residents who want to know what's really wrong with the political process ought to start out by looking in mirrors.
Agreed!
Just ONE little thing to add (has to do with the Triumvirat thing) is that New York City's SENATORS are largely "minority party" ... and that's IMPORTANT for "next time." In NYS, it is the MAJORITY LEADERS (Bruno, republican Senate Majority Leader; Silver, Democratic Assembly leader) who make the "deals" ... if your "member" is in the "minority party" they don't have *ANY* input ... if your "member" is in the "MAJORITY party" they don't have *ANY EITHER!* ... all the deals are made by the Triumvirat.
Results of the agrrements are printed up as bills MINUTES before the vote and in most cases, YOUR representative isn't even given the chance or time to READ it before they must play "beat the clock" to vote on it based on what their leadership tells them to do. (No joke, if you doubt my words, call your representative and ASK them how it works) ... so ANYTHING that needs doing in this state is DIRECTLY attributable to Shelley, Joey, or Goober.
Shelley's already got religion, no point in being a pain in the butt to HIM, so consider who's left. Joe Bruno and Paturkey ... I spent the campaign season trying to get you folks familiar with these guys ... let's see how far we get using "logic" on them now.
Yep ... the SENATE is largely territory-based, but if I remember correctly, the CITY has a pretty close to majority in the Assembly. But Shelley Silver already HAS religion on this issue, it's the SENATE where the points need to be made ... and here, the city IS at a disadvantage. But Paturkey COULD come through ... and there's just ONE of him. Hmmm ... do I spot a potential focus of anger?
Once again though, election's over ... too late to feed the pander bear. :(
"I *do* agree with you, believe it or not ... but NYPIRG has pretty much blown its political capitol in ALBANY ... endorsing the Greens didn't help matters on a political basis either. That said, the only way their point gains any credibility is INDEED for the public to rise up and demand independently. I should have said that but didn't think I would need to. But you're absolutely right. "
Oh, I agree with you. Supporting the Green Party and other bullshit fringe groups was a mistake, and they're paying for it. And they've done other silly things too. Part of it is what their leadership thinks, part of it is who funds them, membership dues, etc.
People come as "packages." It's hard to accept one good aspect of them and not have to deal with the more objectionable stuff - you know, kind of like me. :0)
Oh, hmmm..Who does support them, anyways? Rag tag people who want to rebel against the current world order? Political asses who want revenge? Who is it?
The Straphangers' political campaign was key in persuading NYCT to introduce the MetroCard. They persuaded many legislators in Albany in the early 1980's to support setting up up a Capital Plan system, and fund it.
That's a half-truth, at best. The MTA wanted to offer discounts since before the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 in 1990, but it was knocked down then by class arguments. If anything, Straphangers' provided the political cover for the MTA to do what it wanted to do anyway.
"That's a half-truth, at best. The MTA wanted to offer discounts since before the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 in 1990, but it was knocked down then by class arguments"
That's bullshit, and you have nothing to support it with. I'm not saying MTA was against it - but it needed encouragement, and it got it.
"If anything, Straphangers' provided the political cover for the MTA to do what it wanted to do anyway. "
Even if that were true, somebody had to encourage them. Political cover is a good and sometimes necessary thing.
Did they get any from you?
"That's a half-truth, at best. The MTA wanted to offer discounts since before the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 in 1990, but it was knocked down then by class arguments"
That's bullshit, and you have nothing to support it with. I'm not saying MTA was against it - but it needed encouragement, and it got it.
I know history, Ron, and I was there.
What evidence or standing have you to call me a liar?
"I know history, Ron, and I was there."
So was I.
"What evidence or standing have you to call me a liar? "
I am not saying you're lying. I'm saying you're mistaken. Gene Russianoff, whom I happen to know, has been vocal and aggressive in advocating for discounted rides and the Metrocard long before MTA came out with it. He wasn't the only advocate, but he was effective.
"What evidence or standing have you to call me a liar? "
I am not saying you're lying. I'm saying you're mistaken. Gene Russianoff, whom I happen to know, has been vocal and aggressive in advocating for discounted rides and the Metrocard long before MTA came out with it. He wasn't the only advocate, but he was effective.
OK, I originally said:
"That's a half-truth, at best. The MTA wanted to offer discounts since before the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 in 1990, but it was knocked down then by class arguments"
You said:
"That's bullshit, and you have nothing to support it with. I'm not saying MTA was against it - but it needed encouragement, and it got it."
OK, so you're not calling me a liar, you're calling me a bullshit artist. I feel much better now.
Now, from what do you assume I have nothing to support it with. That would be a statement of fact, that you know or do not know that there is supporting information.
Now, as to your contention as to Straphangers' being the morivating force behind fare discounts, can you give me any solid timeline with support for when and how?
The problem here, Paul is, that you took all of that personally. I didn't call you, nor do I think you to be a bullshit artist (which is one who consistently and repeatedly engages purposefully in the art of), nor did I call you a liar (because I do not believe that you said something inaccurate on purpose). So why take offense at it?
Gene Russianoff has been in the business of transit advocacy for as long as I can remember. He's been doing it for 25 years. He graduated from Harvard Law School, and by all accounts is one hell of a bright, astute guy. He was one of two people who founded the group. I don't remember the year, but it was before the first Capital Plan was established and the thing on everybody's mind was the graffitti on the trains.
1979 was the 75th Anniversary of the subways and the year I started working on a subway based computer game (I got a license from MTA to use the map).
Russianoff could have used is Law School contacts to do the M&A thing and get a license to print money, but he did this instead. (I'm not saying he couldn't join a law or lobbying firm today - he certainly could).
The first Capital Plan started in 1982.
The group was always a kind of underdog type - and no doubt they attracted some class-based scorn, especially from people who thought that only low-lifes rode anything with steel wheels (even LIRR).
One thing they started doing then which I didn't like, and still doing today, is not offering MTA enough credit for things that do get done. But that's politics...
Kind of likewhat some Subtalkers do to the Straphangers!
I will try to locate some articles for you. Are indices of articles from back issues of the NY Times from the late 1970's or early '80's available on-line? If not, this will have to happen by going to the NY Public Library and doing it manually - next time I'm there.
Since you're being light on specifics, I'll be a little heavier.
When the TA proposed the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 that took place in 1990, they originally called for a two-tier system. A single token fare of $1.25, or nine tokens for $10 (or $1.11 a ride). This was knocked down as being unfair to the poor, who presumably would not be able to invest $10 at one time to purchase the discounted tokens.
In 1992, the MTA proposed a $1.50 fare. They promised it would be the only increase for five years (and it has gone seven so far, I believe). At the same time they proposed an unlimited monthly pass for subway riders, and discounts for two-fare zone city riders and suburban riders.
This proposal was by MTA Chairman Peter Stangl. Gene Russianoff said at the time "If Peter Stangl can get New Yorkers an unlimited-ride monthly pass [...] he'll really have given the city something."
You tell the MTA part of the story reasonably well, but you've glossed over the Straphangers' contribution. So you're no heavier on the details than I was.
"When the TA proposed the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 that took place in 1990, they originally called for a two-tier system. A single token fare of $1.25, or nine tokens for $10 (or $1.11 a ride). This was knocked down as being unfair to the poor, who presumably would not be able to invest $10 at one time to purchase the discounted tokens."
SEPTA does that now. The fare is $2 (.60 for a transfer between buses or from bus to subway), but you can buy tokens for $1.30, in quantities of a minimum of 2 tokens. However, tokens are not available everywhere (though you can get them from certain stores, machines in several subway stations and at the downtown commuter rail sales offices and the SEPTA gift shop). So I see a lot of people feeding the bus fare box $2. The transit agency has been criticized for that. Would you agree with that criticism?
"In 1992, the MTA proposed a $1.50 fare. They promised it would be the only increase for five years (and it has gone seven so far, I believe)."
Yes, the agency did keep its promise. Very nice indeed.
"This proposal was by MTA Chairman Peter Stangl. Gene Russianoff said at the time "If Peter Stangl can get New Yorkers an unlimited-ride monthly pass [...] he'll really have given the city something."
Yes, he did say that, and appropriately so. But what you've glossed over is that Russianoff was advocating for that sort of thing even before then. This is a team effort here: the Straphangers advocating for a concept, helping organize political support, and the MTA's Stangl deciding to make an executive decision (with the Governor's assent, of course) to do it.
Russianoff gave credit where credit was due - something you don't do very well...
Yes, he did say that, and appropriately so. But what you've glossed over is that Russianoff was advocating for that sort of thing even before then. This is a team effort here: the Straphangers advocating for a concept, helping organize political support, and the MTA's Stangl deciding to make an executive decision (with the Governor's assent, of course) to do it.
Russianoff gave credit where credit was due - something you don't do very well...
I do not intend to beat on Russianoff where he does good. But a lot of us advocated for fare reform. You've presented no evidence that this was uniquely his idea or that he was the moving force in getting it done.
And, once again, you slip in an ad hominem at the end, which you have shown to be your style.
"I do not intend to beat on Russianoff where he does good."
You could have fooled me. Not recognizing someon'e accomplishments is not far above discrediting him - and unfairly, I might add.
"You've presented no evidence that this was uniquely his idea or that he was the moving force in getting it done."
And you've presented no evidence that it was purely the MTA's doing. If and when I have access to newspapers at the library, I can put this to rest.
"And, once again, you slip in an ad hominem at the end, which you have shown to be your style."
It's not ad hominem, and you earned it. Try being a little less defensive next time.
Your style of debate is confrontational and when people respond in kind, you criticize them for being thin-skinned.
"Your style of debate is confrontational and when people respond in kind, you criticize them for being thin-skinned."
You used the term thin-skinned, not me. It refers to the person, rather than the attitude, which is what I was referring to.
'Nuff said.
Oh, yeah. I almost forgot.
You seem to like to have the last word. So I'll let you have the last word so you don't wear your fingers out! ;-)
They'll never wear out for you, Paul!
:0)
OHHH....sweethearts in the making???
Peace,
ANDEE
Always.
Paul is a good guy - and he knows I know it...
Yeah, and Ron knows that I know that he knows that...
Oh, Rats. I promised him the last word. Now he has to respond again to save me from infamy.
Golly. Ron let me have the last word. What a nice guy.
:0)
Is it me or is this just a spam branched from the original thread? God save us all!
That's a half-truth, at best. The MTA wanted to offer discounts since before the fare increase from $1.00 to $1.15 in 1990, but it was knocked down then by class arguments.
That's bullshit, and you have nothing to support it with. I'm not saying MTA was against it - but it needed encouragement, and it got it.
I know for a fact that there were a lot of class-based arguments when the unlimited MC's were introduced some years back. It's entirely possible that there were such arguments back in 1990 too, and that they were (temporarily) successful.
That doesn't diminish the Straphangers' role in getting the Metrocard established. Recall that Gene Russianoff's advocacy goes back a very long way (he was around in the mid 1980's too, you know).
Are you saying that MetroCard was Russianoff's idea that the MTA adopted?
Recall that Gene Russianoff's advocacy goes back a very long way (he was around in the mid 1980's too, you know).
What? Are we doing a seniority thing, here? I go back to the early 1960s, and have the writings to prove it.
But isn't it amazing how fare afield we can go? This wasn't a question of whether or not Gene Russianoff hss ever been effective or whether he's a nice guy. (My impression is that he is--I've met him and he is cheerful and engaging--FWIW). The point is that a "plan" to save the fare and service which amounts to "demand more from somewhere else" lacks something.
My younger daughter, 10, complained the other day as to why she should have to study and do homework.
"Because you need to make a living when you're grown up."
"Why won't you pay for me?"
"After a certain point we'll be dead."
"Then I'd better start saving up my allowance."
Maybe she'll be an advocate someday, too.
You win on the seniority question (I landed in NY in 1963 at the age of two).
---------------------
My younger daughter, 10, complained the other day as to why she should have to study and do homework.
"Because you need to make a living when you're grown up."
"Why won't you pay for me?"
"After a certain point we'll be dead."
"Then I'd better start saving up my allowance."
--------------------------------------
A precious moment indeed!
Do you remember a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon, where Calvin is asked by his father about how he plans to make a living growing up? "I'll do it the old fashioned way," Calvin tells him. "I'll inherit it."
A precious moment indeed!
Yes, one of the unexpected treats of patenthood is the straightforward amd disarming observations of kids.
Do you remember a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon, where Calvin is asked by his father about how he plans to make a living growing up? "I'll do it the old fashioned way," Calvin tells him. "I'll inherit it."
That's a good one, though I don't recall it. It reminds me of an old brokerage house (?which one?) commercial "We get our money the old-fashioned way. We earn it." I swear that every time I heard that commercial I expect them to say: "We steal it." :)
You'd be right...
>>>It reminds me of an old brokerage house (?which one?) commercial "We get our money the old-fashioned way. We earn it...<<<
Smith Barney, IIRC. John Houseman(sp?), was the spokesman.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh heh heh, if anything, you have it right on the money, as usual Ronnie. But, I'll tell you right now, Subtalk is far more mature than the 'dribble' as you say goes on at the Rider Diaries. I swear, the same amount of whining about the system goes on there as well.
I love it here with all of the same people I've come to recognize and laugh at...
"But, I'll tell you right now, Subtalk is far more mature than the 'dribble' as you say goes on at the Rider Diaries. I swear, the same amount of whining about the system goes on there as well. "
You're 100% right. The value of the information on Subtalk IS much better, no doubt. Rider Diaries is mostly drivel. I go to that site to check line statistics (that's good information which helps with discussions here) and to electronically sign petitions which I agree with.
What bothers me about Straphangers is that they are fighting the wrong battle.
There WILL be service cuts wherever it doesn't lead to dangerously overcrowded trains (i.e., no cuts on the 4 in rush hour unless the economy gets still worse).
There WILL be a fare increase.
There WILL be reductions in the contributions of both the city and the state to NYCT.
The only battle worth fighting right now is to insure that critical maintenance isn't deferred. And Straphangers isn't addressing that at all.
"The only battle worth fighting right now is to insure that critical maintenance isn't deferred. And Straphangers isn't addressing that at all. "
I'm amazed at the incredible ignorance that Subtalkers sometimes display. Have you looked at the Straphangers' site? Check out the site, look carefully at the service statistics they report on, and then come back and we'll talk.
"Check out the site, look carefully at the service statistics they report on, and then come back and we'll talk."
I've looked at their service statistics. They are useful. But that is not what I was addressing. I was addressing priorities. Where on their site does Straphangers urge NYCT to maintain its budget for infrastructure repair? It may be buried somewhere but it sure isn't obvious. What's out in the open and obvious is "No fare increase, no service cutbacks".
Referring to this as ignorance when you are addrsssing something different from what I was discussing IS an ad hominem attack, by the way. But if I seriously minded that I wouldn't reply to your postings.
"Where on their site does Straphangers urge NYCT to maintain its budget for infrastructure repair? It may be buried somewhere but it sure isn't obvious. What's out in the open and obvious is "No fare increase, no service cutbacks"."
If the Straphangers document, over time, a deterioration in service (% of breakdowns, % of trains clean, % of on-time arrivals), that should lead the average person to conclude that the system is not in a state of good repair. These are the variables that measure the state of repair in ways that are important to the rider.
The Straphangers compile these data periodically, so they can be compared.
Check out the Reports hyperlink. Look at, for example: http://www.straphangers.org/stationrelease02.html And that's not the only one. Now, you may or may not agree with its content or methodology - that's your right - but it makes for useful reading.
I believe I've just demonstrated for you that the site does deal with infrastructure repair, in context, though with the system overall.
"Referring to this as ignorance when you are addrsssing something different from what I was discussing IS an ad hominem attack, by the way."
Perhaps I did come off a bit strong there. Fair enough. Point taken.
[... Straphangers is that they are fighting the wrong battle.
- There WILL be service cuts ...
- There WILL be a fare increase.
- There WILL be reductions (from) both the city & the state to NYCT.]
But somebody should cry foul. I don't agree with everything they do or say, but I don't mind them doing it.
Look at the situation with the "private" bus companies, everyone is afraid to speak out and say don't do it, so it will probably happen once the red tape & money issues are worked out ... that will make the MTA an even bigger, impersonal, untouchable, monster, controlled by Albany.
Case in point, Pataki has put NYC riders in the situation they're in, i.e. a growing big big debt. Rudy/Bloomberg weren't able to do much about it because it was a MTA/Pataki action.
AMEN ... and while I agree that it's useful for NYPIRG to make some noise, what riders and TWU negotiators need is some ACTION. What are the chances, now that folks are seeing what I warned was coming, of TWU getting ANYTHING now with all this flying above their collective heads? Raises? No increase in medical contributions? Better conditions? I don't think so. And with court jesters in the way, it ain't going to get any better - that was the reason I was concerned, as well as the reason why I feel the methodology is counterproductive.
Where *WERE* these "straphangers" *BEFORE* the election, when any of this would have MATTERED? :(
"Where *WERE* these "straphangers" *BEFORE* the election, when any of this would have MATTERED? :( "
Unfair cheap shot. They agitate constantly, but they don't leaflet up where you are.
My apologies, I can only go by what I read here, and didn't see any agitation over the potential fare hike prior to the election. Too many "activist groups" arrive on the platform after the train has rounded the bend on the outbound, so I just assumed this was another of those.
Dennis Rivera and 1199 were there, plate in hands, and got their lump of commissary lunch (news: 1199 members didn't apparently follow through, so that sammich turned into a lump of coal) and are going to receive the high hard one anyway in the upcoming budget. All of the other savvy groups were lined up around the corner before the election, so that was the reason why I said what I did. If I was wrong, my apologies. I can only describe what I can see.
Not a problem.
You're absolutely correct in that APATHY KILLS. You can never give up.
I know that if I want my assemblyman, senator etc. to support something (and in recent years when I was in Bayside I got a couple of previously disinterested pols to publicly support SAS and AirTrain), I have to write a letter, follow up with a phone call, then walk into the community office and get REAL friendly with the key staffers, and then repeat that cycle. If you convince a staffer you are right, that staffer will advocate your position to the pol, which helps you.
Again, and again, and again. Get signatures on a petition, and bring it in. Call and remind them again. Write a thank-you letter for the pol's support. Send copies of all my correspondence with the pols on those topics to the PA or MTA, and to the Manhattan Borough President. Sign other people's petitions if they are compatible with yours.
Write letters to the editor of local papers.
You know what? It's a lot of work, and it's drudgery, and it can be deadly boring at times, because you're playing yourself like a broken record.
You know what else? It does work.
That indeed does ... but signing an internet form (internet data is still not accepted legally) and clicking off counters is meaningless on a political basis, same for email or "form snail mail" to politicians. At BEST, some intern on staff will count up the pros and cons and mention it in a "position report" ... my big problem I suppose is that I got to see the OTHER side of how politics works sitting behind the desks of the porcine ...
The ONLY thing that matters is how much MONEY comes in and how many babies have to be kissed and how many boring-ass luncheons (at a price per plate) have to be attended until the poll numbers are good enough. The 2004 campaign is already underway ...
Bottom line is those who give *MONEY* to the politician get face time, everyone else gets a form letter that may or more likely may NOT mention what you contacted your rep about. And so it goes, as Tuch says.
By the way AND THIS IS NOT A JOKE ... here's the price breakdown to talk to a politico ... note that party affiliation makes NO difference in the price:
US PRESIDENT: $10,000
US Senator or congress: $5,000
Mayor, major city: $5,000
Mayor, BS city: $1,000
Governor: $5,000
State Senator (or upper house): $1,000
State legislator: $500-$750
Small town official/community board: $100-$250
No joke, we've paid the price in several of the above categories. The above price gets you anywhere from 60 seconds to ten minutes to make your case. Pay again for more time. :(
Where *WERE* these "straphangers" *BEFORE* the election, when any of this would have MATTERED? :(
Unfortunately, they were probably not deemed newsworthy by the media. They would not have received any coverage had they tried sending out a ton of press releases a day. The media was "busy" covering an election. The last thing they would have wanted would have been to cover any issues. Informing the electorate is not part of their charter.
Now that it's a slow news season, the media is begging for something to fill the space between the advertising. Thank you NYPIRG for those fillers.
I think that demonstrates why I admire Al Sharpton. No matter WHAT is going on, the media will always attend a circus. Al's always been willing to be considered a buffoon if it gets his issues covered, and he has always managed to get the media to come out. I think straphangers could learn something from Sharpton's media methods here. Even if people despise Sharpton, he is able to get his message out even if he has to denigrate himself to make it happen.
That said, you probably also see why I hold the media in such extreme contempt myself, having once been part of it ... but Straphangers COULD have popped up on the radar if they had any understanding of how to set up a tent ...
"That said, you probably also see why I hold the media in such extreme contempt myself, having once been part of it ... but Straphangers COULD have popped up on the radar if they had any understanding of how to set up a tent ... "
Hold on now. Russianoff is pretty good with that. Consider this: Nearly every time subway-related funding or some project is discussed, it's considered mandatory for the newspaper reporter to get Russianoff's take on it.
Check the Subtalk archives for article links and you'll see what Imean.
"That said, you probably also see why I hold the media in such extreme contempt myself, having once been part of it ... but Straphangers COULD have popped up on the radar if they had any understanding of how to set up a tent ... "
Hold on now. Russianoff is pretty good with that. Consider this: Nearly every time subway-related funding or some project is discussed, it's considered mandatory for the newspaper reporter to get Russianoff's take on it.
Check the Subtalk archives for article links and you'll see what I mean.
Point taken, thanks for the input.
Why shouldn't there be service cuts, if done carefully? (Yes, I realize that there's a good chance they won't be done carefully, but that's a different issue).
I posted a list of places where there are way more than 8 tph in midday and no need I could see for those trains, and not a single person responded to say that those trains are actually halfway full.
To my mind, far worse than service cuts is irregular service. I've got no problem with 8 tph on a weekend or midday (where the traffic doesn't need more trains), as long as it's regular.
Admittedly, if they cut the 4 in rush hour, bad things would happen. But if they delete midday and weekend service on the B, C (Brooklyn segment), M (Montague tunnel and south), or < Q >, no one would really suffer as long as the remaining services ran regularly.
Actually, CPW local stations need more than just the C. There should always be two local services on CPW, one to 8th Avenue and one to 6th Avenue. One of the express services can afford to go, though. And I think the C should continue to run in Brooklyn, if only because the A is the train to JFK and it would be nice for it to run express. The A is one of the few B Division lines that often has midday standees.
Based on my observations (which may or may not be typical), these midday services can afford modest midday service reductions: B/D (eliminate one and run the other local), G, J, L, M, N, Q, R, W. OTOH, weekend improvements are warranted in places: CPW local (run the D local or call it the B), R, V (not necessarily the full route, but 6th Avenue needs more service and the 6th-53rd connector needs to be restored to weekend service), and all A Division lines, especially the 1 and 4.
I would also argue against terminating the midday M in Manhattan, although headways on the entire line could be increased. Especially with the Fulton transfer from the A/C, it's a useful connection between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and eliminating the M would cut local service between Pacific and 36th (including a transfer point to the F) to the R alone, unless the N fills in for the M on the local track.
I didn't mention the G or J because they are already down to 6 tph at midday, wich I think is a minimum of tolerable service. Also, in the last few years I've never been on an L, at any time of day, that had a seat available by the time it got to 3rd Ave.
I agree the A express to JFK would be nice. A local would be sending the wrong message.
Midday, the M could terminate at Broad St, and the N could run local under 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
I won't be surprised if when the crunch comes the W and M are actually reduced to shuttles midday, though those cuts would be more onerous for the people who do use those trains (first waiting up to 10 mins for the shuttle, then up to another 10 for the connecting train).
The Straphangers Campaign knows, better than most groups, the Rules of New York Politics:
1. Anything can happen, and probably will.
2. By the time an issue reaches the public for debate, the Gang of Three - George Pataki, Joe Bruno, Sheldon Silver - has already decided its outcome.
3. Like any business, The Straphangers Campaign exists solely to stay in business. That means it must create issues, even if they don't exist or have long since been decided. In the case of subway/bus fares, Gene Russianoff is probably the rare fourth person in the Gang's room, in which case he's fighting service cuts and fare increases to which he might have agreed!
"2. By the time an issue reaches the public for debate, the Gang of Three - George Pataki, Joe Bruno, Sheldon Silver - has already decided its outcome. "
Not true, and self-serving. It's a wonderful excuse for not doing anything - or simply blaming somebody else if you don't get what you want. Yes, the three have a lot of power. This does not mean the public doesn't have a voice, however.
If you feel you have no voice, it's in large part your own fault.
"Like any business, The Straphangers Campaign exists solely to stay in business. That means it must create issues, even if they don't exist or have long since been decided."
Often true, yes.
"In the case of subway/bus fares, Gene Russianoff is probably the rare fourth person in the Gang's room,"
Not true, but he does have credibility (built up over 20 years in advocacy) and some influence
"in which case he's fighting service cuts and fare increases to which he might have agreed! "
False, and very silly.
No, "Gotham Bus" has it RIGHT. First off, this isn't a "democrat/republican" thing, the state Triumvirat worked this way when the democrats had two out of three as well - it's the WAY that New York government works, primarily because of the population of New York City. The PERFECT diversionary tactic has always existed - namely that folks in New York City think their city operates SOLELY by lever-pulling in the city council and City Hall. BUZZZZZZzzzzzz.
But since anything bad gets blamed on the mayor, or in the suburbs on their "county executives" there's no penalty when the state government does what it does since almost nobody is paying ANY attention to the on-goings in Albany. The Assembly and the Senate have "conferences" which are ruled by the majority leader (Currently democrat Sheldon Silver of NYC in the Assembly and republican Joe Bruno of TROY in the Senate) ... the "conference structure" works under the control of the two majority leaders, one in each house and it's a STRONG leadership. For all intents and purposes, call it "dictatorship" ... even the MAJORITY party members will not argue with the leadership and THAT is why the "Triumvirat" is how this has worked for decades.
In the complete absence of notice by the majority of the public, htings like this can go on. Bruno and Silver and Paturkey negotiate, and dictate to the legislature how the vote will go. This power is further amplified by the way the legislature works (both houses) with appointments. The pay of senators and assemblypeople is pitiful. In order to get a reasonable paycheck, you have to go for appointments to committees and what is called "lulus" (or payments "in lieu of") in order to make your nut. Don't do what you're told and you're OFF the committee and you don't get your lulu. So NOBODY crosses the leadership or fails to do what they're told.
But THIS is how the public gets shafted, the leadership makes ALL the decisions and woe be to that single elected sausage crafter who fails to follow the directions of the leadership. There's a battle going on right now in the Senate and the assembly over individual representatives who endorsed the wrong candidate last week. Such is the power struggle when nobody's watching. I've spent the better part of my life covering all this, and observing it daily. Gotham's RIGHT.
No, Selkirk. Gotham's WRONG.
A lot of what you say is true, but that does not mean issues and agendas are not set or influenced outside the troika - though in the end, the troika sign off on them.
Naivete doesn't only run one way - Gotham is proof of that.
Believe what you wanna, can't make you believe. I only spent about 15 years of my life watching all this, observing it, overhearing the deals made in backrooms and reporting it.
All I can say is everybody give it your all, see what happens.
I'm not denying the back-room deals. But they happen everywhere and are a fact of life. What I am saying is, you can get your wishes into that room if you want iot badly enough.
I'm not denying the back-room deals. But they happen everywhere and are a fact of life. What I am saying is, you can get your wishes into that room if you want it badly enough.
No, Selkirk. Gotham's WRONG.
A lot of what you say is true, but that does not mean issues and agendas are not set or influenced outside the troika - though in the end, the troika sign off on them.
Naivete doesn't only run one way - Gotham's post is proof of that.
No offense intended towards Russianoff, but I've had the "privilege" of being in hearing rooms after the circus has left town in order to pack up our television equipment. Since we were the LAST to remove microphones from the dais, and our board was always hot, we'd get to hear the politicos talk with their hands over their mouths (and whoops! Sometimes that would get to "air" accidentally and QUITE unintentionally) ... Russianoff was held in contempt by the lawgivers for a long long time as are other NYPIRG people.
And I say this in all sincerity - Al Sharpton was held in a higher degree of respect because once the lights go out, he's a real nice guy and very polite with the "powers that be" ... Sharpton would do his sidewalk act for the cameras in order to ensure that his face and his issues appeared on the news, but at the same time he knew how to wheel and deal, get his issue out to the legislature and governor *AND* provide a number of avenues they could pursue as compromise measures, all intended to get as much of a result as he COULD. More often than not, Sharpton managed to get SOME of what he wanted because he was willing to work the system.
NYPIRG on the other hand, takes a postion, does their thing for the press and goes and talks amongst themselves, unwilling to make a deal. I've seen it myself. Russianoff is certainly quite competent and well meaning, but it does seem as though his political capital just ain't there. We'll see. It all comes down to what's in it for Joe Bruno and I already know what Bruno thinks of NYPIRG - not much. In THIS political climate, that's GOT to change before anything can happen. :(
Your specific criticism and comparison vs. Sharpton holds merit. The Straphangers do work with others, but are not willing to deal as much, and Gene's folks can come across as arrogant sometimes, refusing to return phone calls, that sort of thing.
The fact that politicos don't like them, however, does not mean they are impotent. Don't confuse one with the other.
Thanks for the understanding. The more people realize that this ISN'T a "republican" or "democratic" thing the better - in ALL of my political things, trying to explain how things WORK (or don't), my whole point is to illustrate the STRUCTURE and who the current holders are in order to show how we get from point A to falling over the cliff. That's all.
Russianoff unfortunately *is* impotent on the necessary political basis strictly BECAUSE he hasn't sucked up to Joey and greased his palm like others who HAVE gotten results have done. Joey is like Sea Beach Fred in personality and temperment. Joey sees Russianoff as a communist. Period, end of story. Judgement made, nothing Russianoff could say or do will ever change Joey's mind now.
The REAL issue here though is that you have three PEOPLE who make the rules and all the decisions. So my SUGGESTION is that rather than signing silly petitions or picketing outside the hallowed halls, about the only semi-effective solution here would be to flood Joe Bruno's Senate office with individual letters, handwritten with valid return addresses and one of those "registered, return receipt requested" tags on each and every letter. THAT might get some attention since his staff will have to deal with all that. But handing out petitions or leafletting the public is a complete waste of time.
If some thoughtful people sat down, looked over the actual numbers and came up with monetary diversions from specific funds to the transit funds and can SHOW a way, THAT might work. But playing 1960's war protest numbers will be a waste of time, Joe Bruno is an old time republican politburo type. He's as likely to listen as Tom Delay.
"So my SUGGESTION is that rather than signing silly petitions or picketing outside the hallowed halls, about the only semi-effective solution here would be to flood Joe Bruno's Senate office with individual letters, handwritten with valid return addresses and one of those "registered, return receipt requested" tags on each and every letter. "
Yes, very good.
"But handing out petitions or leafletting the public is a complete waste of time."
No, it's not. Think logically about it. How are you going to get people to follow your suggestion? You hand each one a leaflet with all the information on it.
Yeah, you're right about the leafletting. The newspapers and teevees probably won't spread the word. And handbills would give people the address since I'm sure nobody knows where to FIND Bruno. :)
Sorry once again for my naysaying, the old methods don't really work anymore in a campaign financed, soundbite mentality political "screw the people" world ...
1995...It's long lines and short tempers, as straphangers deal with the first day of an increased mass transit fare. The hike is a whopping 20 percent, boosting the fare 25 cents to $1.50. But if it's any consolation, the Transit Authority promised no further increase for the rest of the century.
Peace,
ANDEE
... and, as we are all seeing, the Century is over ..... and a fare increase looms.
--Mark
I'd like to see them make that same promise now. Like it would actually happen.
Bingo!!!!!!!!
Perhaps fellow subtalkers can put in writing the sounds of the subway back when redbirds, and arnines and D-types were king!! Lets make this a fun ON TOPIC thread! Give it a try! :)
This is a pelham bay park bound 6 express train, the next stop is Westchester Square- East Tremont avenue. Stand clear of teh closing doors please. ( Door chimes) Ladies and gentlemen for your safety please do not block the doors while the train is in the station. Stand clear of the closing doors please. ( door chimes) ( DING) If I have to leave this cab lets just say that you won't be very happy... LET GO OF THE DOORS!!!!!!! Stand clear of the closing doors please. ( Door Chimes) IEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ( R142A second, then third phase takeoff, then cruise)
This is a Crown heights bound 4 express train. THe next.......stop is Atlantic avenue. Stand Clear of the closing doors please. ( door chimes) Ieeeeeee ( R142A second then third stage takeoff, then cruise)
Knock yourselves out ( please don't do it literally)
Part 2:
( on the middle of the express tracks somewhere in BLKYN) This is a crown heights bound 4 express train (ding) This is the last stop on this train (ding) This is (DING) this is Bedford Park Boulevard ( ding) this is kingsbridge road. ( at Borough hall) this is fordham road. ( All announcements killed) (Strip map illuminating all lights) ( strip map killed) ( 30 minutes later) (Doors open) (flyer exits at an undisclosed location and sees that the External LCD side signs on this R142A are showing the correct destination) 4 TO WOODLAWN-- LEXINGTON AV EXP-- BROOKLYN EXPRESS.
This is 3rd av. 138 street. Transfer is available to the 6 local. ( traction motors slowing down) ( cruise ending, Third then second phase R142A slowdown) IEeeeeeee. ( Squeel, traction motors grunt) Click-ka-crunch ( doors open) This is a pelham bay park bound 6 express train. the next stop is Hunts point Avenue. Stand clear of the closing doors please. ( Door chime) ka-crunch ( doors close) IEeeeee ( R142A takeoff second stage, then third stage, then cruise) R142A accelerates, begins bouncing and rocking violently. ( Squeeky, squeeky, squueeky)
I think that you have a great idea with the sounds of the system. Try making a tape and/or CD recording of the sounds. Some people might find them quite interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Heypaul did just that some 30 years ago. I highly recommend his tape recordings to anyone who appreciates the R-1/9s.
I have a few of "heypaul's" tape recordings of the R-1/9s. I've listened to them a couple of times since I've had them.
#3 West End Jeff
There are a number of websites that have audio recordings from on board trains in Japan (and also from standing on the station platforms, since they have those jingles that play whenever a train is about to leave). (Unfortunately, I don't understand Japanese. But they bring back fond memories of riding the trains there when I was on vacation.) Ever since stumbling on the treasure trove of Japanese railfan sites I've wondered why there are very, very few audio recordings of the NYC subway system on the web. Although we have far fewer intelligible announcements to be recorded here, I think it would be interesting to have, for example, a recording where one of the stops is at a station where there's live music (like that guy who sings opera on the 6-- where is that, somewhere around 68th or 77th?).
You want audio????? Gotta get to my yard!!!! 'In the Hole, In the Hole, IN THE HOLE SPEAK ENGLISH TRAINSET GOING B I E .....take cover'
I have a cassette that I bought years back of the sounds of the Myrtle El. It's amazing how different the sounds were. Even some movies that were filmed on location have some great sounds. Brighton Beach Memoirs, which was filmed around 1985 at the Seneca M station has some great sounds of the R27-30's going through the station. The movie was set in the 1930's, and when they show the station it never has a train in it (a grafittied R27 would not have went well with the 30's theme!). But when they were filming on the street below, or at the top of the stairways in the station, they would often keep filming as the trains went by, and the sounds are there.
Another movie with a lot of subway scenes (and sounds) in it is The Warriors; an old gang-banging movie. Just watching the movie gives you a very good idea how the NYC subways were like circa 1979. I vaguely remember riding on some of these trains as a little kid.
Put up some of the R10s I sent ya lad.
On the Brighton many years ago, the automated announcements would have sounded like ....
This is a Manhattan-bound 1 Brighton Express Train. The next stop is Church Avenue. Stand clear of the closing door please.
This is Church Avenue. Transfer is available to the 35 Church Avenue Trolley. The next stop on this train is Malbone Street.
Thank you for riding the Brighton Express - the pride of the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation
This is Malbone Street. Transfer is available to the Ocean Avenue speed cars. Connection is also available to Ebbets Field.
This is Sheepshead Bay. Connection is available to the 36 Trolley. Connection is also available to Sheepshead Bay Race Track.
This is Brighton Beach. This is the last stop on this train, everyone please leave the train. Thank you for riding Brooklyn - Manhattan Transit.
This is a Coney Island-bound Brighton Local Train. The next stop is Coney Island.
This is Coney Island. Transfer is available to the West End Line, the Sea Beach Line, and the Culver Line. Transfer is available to the Norton's Point Trolley. Connection is available to the Cyclone and Thunderbolt.
This is a Manhattan-bound Brighton Express Train. The next stop is Myrtle Avenue ....
You get the idea.
--Mark
Nice ARTICLE about Joe Hofmanns impending retirement. The TA is losing one of the good ones.
Peace,
ANDEE
Composite Brake Shoes.
Yeah, but folks wanted their trains to be quieter, right up to that sound of crunching metal. :)
I think we ALL owe Joseph E. Hofmann a great debt and many kind words for all he's done over the years ...
But now the big question:
Will anyone inherit his $30,000 office shower stall?
Bigger question, who will run the two Harley Davidsons the TA spend dough on this year?
Wow!
What a guy.
I don't remember four subway cars leaving the elevated tracks and landing on a building roof. In 1998. Somebody remind me exactly what happened. Was this a revenue train?
Was this a revenue train?
No, I don't believe so... seems to me it might have been on the Wakefield Yard lead, but I could be mistaken.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Redbird #2 was entering the Wakefield Yard lead when it bumped into a stopped R62 #4 train that was visiting the facility for a car wash.
The #2 train was on a curve. What followed was similar to what happened in January 1977 on the Chicago El, a low-speed impact caused the rear train to buckle and derail. R33 #8980,8981,9152 and 9153 were lost, the latter two to fire when they crashed onto a parked truck loaded with paint thinner. R62 #1400 got the pie in the face.
wayne
Pie in the face?
Awwright, a shot in the kisser. He had a little anticlimber and bonnet damage when the R33 began to push the rear of the train.
wayne
"You must remember this ...
A kiss is still a kiss,
a sigh is just a sigh
The fundamental things apply
As trains go by ..."
Thanks for the explanation and responding to my post Wayne-MrSlantR40!!!
No problem, I always try to shed a little light on things, even if it's sometimes a rather dim bulb :o>
wayne
Thank you!
In other words, the 2 was waiting in line at the birdbath.:)
Thanks for the link Andee, interesting reading !
From the Times article:
Such as the 1995 crash on the Williamsburg Bridge in which a motorman died and a train literally had to be sliced into pieces to get it off the bridge.
Sliced into pieces? What are they talking about?
Both #4664 AND #4461 were removed intact, their noses were demolished, but they were in one piece.
wayne
I am coming over to NY from England for a long weekend trip with my wife and stepson; we'll only be there Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
As I want to be able to take the family to various places of interest in a trouble-free manner, and I've always told them that the subway is *the* way to get around New York, can subtalkers help me with news of any disastrous GOs planned for this coming weekend, November 16-17?
Thanks, Yours, Fytton.
You can check individual line GOs HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
The catch is that this coming weekend's GOs may not all be posted until Friday.
I know, but what can you do. Some are already posted though.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Times Square visitors center on 7th Avenue between 45th and 46th Streets has a number of computers with Internet connections. Use of these computers is free. Go to one of these computers and check the list of GOs before you make your trip.
--Mark
Ask the station attendant where the "GOs This Weekend" poster is. It's a quick summary of all GOs in effect that weekend on a single poster. A good "GOs at a glance" type of thing.
--Mark
By Thursday, all stations have a universal red and white poster which lists all service changes for all lines near the station agents booth (unless the vandals rip them down!).
Trains had trouble slipping up Summitt hill. Joe Malinconico story in Star-Ledger.
In the article above, it states "Before Midtown Direct, the agency used trains composed of EMUs (electrical multiple units), which have power sources in every rail car and better traction." If that's the case why not just swap the Arrow III MU equipment on the NE Corridor with the ALP-44s and Comet III thru V equipment on the Morris & Essex and Montclair Branches temporarily until the problem of falling leaves is over?
The Arrow MU's cannot automatically switch between the 25KV power on the M&E line and the 11 KV power on the NEC at Harrison where they make the changeover. The ALP-44's can do the changeover.
I see Arrow IIIs on the Montclair and the M&E (especially the Gladstone branch). Are these cars electronically different from those that operate on the NE Corridor and the North Jersey Coast branches?
Their transformers are hardwired to certain voltages. The ones on the M&E are set yo 25kV 60hz, the ones on the PRR Lines are set to 12Kv, 25hz. To change them you would need to take then into a shop for some degree of tinkering. If you look you'll see little orange triangles on the MU's with the voltage they are set to.
While I have not seen specs, the next overhaul for Arrow III cars supposedly will include automatic voltage switching like the ALP44 and ALP46 locmotives
Leaves on the line have been causing havoc on the railways of the UK for the last couple of weeks. The sequence of events goes like this. On Sunday 27 October we had very severe winds in the UK (the worst for ten years or so). This caused damage to overhead electric wires, signalling, trees blown down across lines, etc., so trains stopped running altogether on that day. But as it is the fall, the winds also brought down massive quantities of leaves that might otherwise have fallen more gradually over a period of weeks.
On the Monday, although the immediate obstructions had been cleared and trains were running, they were massively late owing to wheel-slip problems, and also caution approaching station stops because of fears of sliding when braking. Incidentally this effected both EMUs and DMUs, and was even bad on trains where all cars are powered.
But then -- owing to all the wheel-slipping, trains had to be taken out of service for necessary repairs to their wheels, leading to train cancellations owing to a shortage of rolling stock! All in all, November has been a bad month for British trains, and apparently all due to one windy day....
Fytton.
The weird thing is here in Edison, the streets have not yet been raked. If you go down a common road here, you will see piles and thick layers on the sides of the road and down the middle (between the lanes of a 2-way roadway). Many houses have front lawns messy with a blanket of leaves, and I don't notice the brown bags used to recycle leaves in Metuchen in front of houses.
Is it too early to rake? (I don't think so. On some trees most of its leaves have already fallen.)
Without a doubt, the most popular feature of the decrepit 53/Lex station on the E/V is the free connection to the 6. However, with the current construction situation going on, it seems to me that NYCT could reduce crowding at the station by simply closing the connection to the 6 until the project is concluded.
Its true that a very convenient and popular connection would be lost. However, given the dangerous situation that currently exists, convenience should take a back seat to safety. Passengers coming from Queens can still get the 6 pretty easily by taking the R from Queens Plaza one stop to 59/Lex. I used to do this all the time to avoid the crowds at the escalators at 53/Lex. Depending on which side of Manhattan they're coming from, passengers coming from Manhattan can get the east side IRT by changing from the 6th Ave line for the 7 at 6th Ave/42nd Street and going one stop to Grand Central or changing from the 8th Ave line at 42nd Street and taking the shuttle to Grand Central.
Sure, these alternates can prove to be inconvenient. But aren't they worth it if a tragedy at 53/Lex can be avoided?
"Sure, these alternates can prove to be inconvenient. But aren't they worth it if a tragedy at 53/Lex can be avoided?"
By making the west stairs/escalator from the E/V one-way upward, they are increasing the capacity out of the platform, as well as making the pedestrian flow on the platform pretty much one-way westward. Those two items should make the platform safer than it was before the work started.
Why create more misery than is necessary? If you closed the connection you'd unleash a can of worms of new routing patterns that could cause other forms of massive congestion and possible danger. For example, Queens Plaza platforms might get overcrowded if no R comes for a while.
I don't see the need to reroute any trains if the connection were closed. True, R service would have to be upgraded but that could be alleviated by running an extra R or 2 per hour. Otherwise, passengers could use the routing system that already exists.
And about creating misery: True, a lot of people would be unhappy and there would be a lot of bad press. That might be used to Transit's advantage by offering the contractor a bonus for finishing the work quickly.
And as far as "new" routing patterns are concerned: there would be no "new" routing patterns. There would just be a temporary return to the patterns that existed before the 6 connection opened in the 1980's. The subway survived quite nicely before that connection was opened.
>>>That might be used to Transit's advantage by offering the contractor a bonus for finishing the work quickly. <<<
I was under the impression that offering a bonus for finishing early was standard operating procedure for the last few years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, but that was also tied to a PENALTY for finishing late. Let's just say they've gotten better at crystal-balling towards the revenue (umm, err, penalty) side of the equation with contractors lately. It's all about the juice after all. :)
That's a nice idea.
"And as far as "new" routing patterns are concerned: there would be no "new" routing patterns. There would just be a temporary return to the patterns that existed before the 6 connection opened in the 1980's. The subway survived quite nicely before that connection was opened."
There are a lot more people using the subway than there were then. There are many buildings on 3rd Ave in the 40s and 50s that didn't exist then.
By "routing patterns", I meant of people (how they get from home to office), not of trains.
What's the problem? I transfered from the E to the 6 at 7:50 this morning and there was no congestion at all. With the current one way traffic, if anything, the station (even with the construction) is underutilized. The only trains stopping there now are the Manhattan-bound E and the relatively lightly crowded V.
New York State Department of Transportation officials accepted the first of seven turbotrains being rebuilt for service on Amtrak's Empire Corridor by SuperSteel Schenectady Inc. in Glenville, New York on Thursday. Acceptance of the first five-car trainset came after overnight tests conducted on the night of November 6, said DOT spokeswoman Melissa Carlson.
State and SuperSteel officials ran the train from Rensselaer to Penn Station during the late night and early morning hours when no regularly scheduled Amtrak service is on the route, Carlson said. The late night/early morning run, was the final shakeout in a series of tests that began in September, Carlson said. "We didn't find any problems. We figured out what needed to be fixed and fixed it," she said.
SuperSteel is refurbishing seven turbotrains dating from the 1970s for $98.5 million from the state. The goal is to put the seven trains into high speed service on the Empire Corridor that runs from Niagara Falls to New York City. As part of the agreement, Amtrak is to upgrade the rails to accept high speed trains and to finance the installation of a second track from Schenectady to Rensselaer.
As far as the DOT is concerned, now that the train has been accepted for service, it can be turned over to Amtrak and begin regular runs, Carlson said. Amtrak spokesman Daniel Stessel, said there was no date set yet for putting the turbotrains into service. They can't be used for high speed travel until the tracks are upgraded and that hasn't happened yet, he said.
Amtrak is facing a budget crunch that could delay its part of the deal with the state. New York will turn the turbotrains over to Amtrak to provide additional service on the Empire Corridor, but it will be up to Amtrak to man and operate them, Carlson said. While Stessel, who works in Amtrak's Washington D.C. headquarters said there was no target for putting the new turbotrains in service.
It is possible the train accepted Thursday could be in revenue service before Thanksgiving, Phillip Larson stated.
Ya-hooooooooooooooo! I want to go for a ride....once they are running in "high-speed" mode.
--Brian
I'd expect direct service to Albany via Second Avenue around then. :)
And the upgrade of the tracks has been put on hold ... so don't hold your breath ... the train will run though, but not up to its capabilities. Since Amtrak is already short of rolling stock, expect to see it running as soon as crews are familiar with it. It's a NICE choochoo though, electric outlets at each seat, though DirecWay (tm) high speed internet service will not be available right away. Fortunately there's only a few spots along the route from NYP to ALB where digital cell dies out for a minute or so ...
That Turbo is as nice a train as any, including Acela. It ran well the first time around and, if maintained, should do well again. From my recollection it was much smoother than the Talgo sets in the Pacific NW and it certainly looks better than a tall straight-sided engine pulling curved-sided coaches.
joe c...
They have been testing it for a while now, and not without some problems. Lets hope it holds togather ... and where are the rest of them ?
What exactly is a turbotrain?
Here ya go ...
http://gcdranet.homelinux.com/davehonan/turbo/rtl-iii.html
Wow. Thanks! That looks great
You're most welcome ... only question now is when they'll run. There's been at least one of the older trainsets running on the Hudson line (that hasn't burst into flames like the others) for quite some time and it was a GREAT ride ... can't wait to see the imrpovements. I got a ride on one of the rebuilts about a year ago and it wasn't looking too good for them at the time, one of the reasons I took to bashing StupidSteel last year. I'm told that they've finally built ONE that works. :)
Also see Railfan & Railroad Nov 2002, page 29 & Railpace October page 44.
The rebuilt trains are certainly quite a contrast to some of the originals...
Are those the same model or different models?
Same Rohr equipment, wouldn't surprise me if the rust bucket is on the tail of the train that got refurbed ... they had gotten that bad, and many of them burst into flames on the railroad. That's WHY the refurb.
no they arent, the rusted out train is an ANF turbo.
Yeah, saw someone else mentioned it. Ah well, that's what I get for being delinquent in my trainspotting all these years. If it lit up, I just ran it. :)
the top one a RTL III is a rebuilt Rohr Turbo built in California and rebuilt by Supersteel.
the bottom picture is a AMF built RTG imported from France. both are completly differed beast.
the RTG even has european buffers between cars and could not operate on third rail.
the Rohrs did have third rail Capabilities thru a traction motor connected to the Voight Hydraulic transmission.
"the Rohrs did have third rail Capabilities thru a traction motor connected to the Voight Hydraulic transmission. "
That sounds inefficdient on a high-speed train...
That was done to make New York City happy ("no stinky diesels shall pass unless they have a genuine BABACO alarm sign") :)
The originals looked pretty decent when they were new.
Now they certainly look spiffy - let's see how well they perform.
Vermont's governor wants approval to spend $2 million on a nine-month contract with Amtrak that would keep the state’s two passenger trains running until the end of March. The Vermonter and the Ethan Allen Express have been running without a contract since the last one expired July 1.
Transportation Secretary Brian Searles was due to present to the Joint Fiscal Committee a proposal to pay $2 million - all that was allotted last spring by the Legislature - to cover a period that started July 1 and ends March 31. It would be the latest of many short-term contracts for the two passenger trains, which are paid for by state funds and by Amtrak.
Service and amenities have come and gone since the Vermonter, which runs between Washington, D.C., and St. Albans on the eastern side of the state, was introduced in 1995 to replace the canceled Montrealer. Baggage cars added on with great fanfare a few years ago were removed this year because they couldn’t run at high speeds, they needed repairs, and they weren’t been used very much, said Charlie Miller, the director of rail at the Vermont Agency of Transportation.
In September, Amtrak closed its four ticket offices in Vermont, forcing customers to buy tickets online, on the train, or through a travel agent. Service on the Ethan Allen Express, which runs between New York City and Rutland, was shaved back last winter. The service used to have two northbound trains and one southbound, but one northbound train was canceled.
Since the Vermonter started running, the state has paid a subsidy to Amtrak for service that is linked to ticket sales. But long-standing problems at the national passenger rail company have prompted Amtrak to ask states to bear the full load of the cost. For Vermont, that would be about $9 million per year - or $5.3 million after revenues, Miller said.
Vermont only has to pay $2 million for now, Miller said, because of previous contractual arrangements with Amtrak. But he doesn’t expect that to last long - and Vermont’s $2 million share will only keep the train going through March. “This year we requested a much higher amount, but the Legislature only saw fit to give us $2 million, so we’re doing what we can with it,” he said. “I’d love to do more with it.” The state would have to come up with another $670,000 to run the trains through June, he said.
Searles will present the proposed contract for approval to the Joint Fiscal Committee, which acts on these issues when the full Legislature is not in session. Miller said about 70,000 people a year ride the Vermonter, and about 40,000 a year ride the Ethan Allen Express. They sell out during holidays, he said. “It is a lot of people, and that’s pretty decent ridership for Amtrak trains overall,” Miller said.
It’s not clear what would happen if the Joint Fiscal Committee didn’t approve the contract. Either way, Vermont will have to pay Amtrak something. “It’s been running since July, so we’re at least going to owe them for whatever service they performed up to this point,” Miller said.
Interestingly enough, I'll be riding the Vermonter this coming Friday... from Washington Union to Newark Penn. Why the Vermonter? Because it's a reserved train rather than unreserved, and with the online purchase discount the price is just $46.80. Of course, it does leave WAS at 0730, which means I have to be there before 0700 to pick up my ticket, so I'll have to get up at 0500 in order to get organized, check out of my hotel, and get to the Metro (I'm staying in a hotel adjacent to the Eisenhower Road stop in Alexandria)... but at least I'll be back down the NJT Coast Line to the Little Silver station (three miles from our house) by noon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've lived in Denver for almost 15 years and had a chance to spend a day rail-fanning in NY on Saturday. Please allow me to share some high points(for me):
I rode the Q to Atlantic to find an M-7 (with no luck). Nice mosaics at Canal Street! The Q over the Manhattan bridge was wonderful. The amount of construction from Dekalb and then Atlantic Avenue station on the Brighton line, through the passageways under the LIRR, and at the IRT and LIRR stations at Atlantic was amazing. I rode the 7th Ave line up to 14th St. One thing is for sure, I am not a big fan of Grade Timers.
The ride on the R-143 to Bdwy Jct was interesting, especially since I grew up on the Brighton Line. I don't think the T/O had much experience operating an R-143, because he constantly left himself short coming into stations and would have to completely release the brakes in order to roll to his mark. A few times he actually reapplied forward power. I don't think it was a mechanical problem because the train was turned as normal.
Due to the Canarsie Line GO which caused L trains to be turned, I got a chance to assist some bewildered people standing around on the platform at Broadway Junction trying to figure out how to get to Canarsie. You know, when they don't speak much English, it's pretty hard to convince them that they have to leave the train station and take a shuttle bus! Thankfully, I had the time, and a Metrocard all day fun-pass (which is too cool), so that I could walk and old Russian lady all the way to the shuttle bus.
I got to see for the first time what a cool express run Eastern Pky to Myrtle would be on the J. Too bad I also know the reality of why it won't happen.
Myrtle Avenue was a kick. There were four (4-car sets) R-143 trains sets running on the M to Metropolitain as a shuttle out of the center track in Myrtle. That was a lot of fun too. Southbound we reached 40MPH on the odometer between Wyckoff and Central Ave. This was the only leg on an R-143 where I could read the speedometer through the front window (which was surprising since the cars are so new). By the way, what are the freight tracks paralleling Metropolitain Ave used for?
My first complete trip over the Williamsburg Bridge was a lot of fun. I say "complete" because I got to ride up the Manhattan side(and right back down into Essex St) quite a few times in the 80's due to Brighton Line GOs. It was interesting to see the extremely small clearances on the ramp down to Manhattan and how the signals are placed because of the premium on space.
Thanks to everybody for all of the great pointers on what to look for on the Nassau/Centre line; especially at Chambers street. It breaks my heart that these tracks were never completely used to their potential. I am glad that the Brighton GOs in the 80s gave me the opportunity to ride on some of the tracks that I never would have otherwise (mostly because I'm too young to have rode on them while in service).
I was not hugely impressed with the ride on the 142-A. It's been over 6 months since I rode on one, and the ride has sure loosened up quickly. The jolting between cars when accelerating from a stop was reminiscent of pre-overhaul R-32s.
I rode the LIRR out to Merrick on Saturday night. The Engineer evidently forgot he needed to stop at Floral Park. It sounded like the train dumped after the front of the train platformed. I don't know if the engineer dumped it or if there is some electronic means by which the train can be stopped (I'm not an LIRR aficionado). But, I did get reintroduced to the smell of overheated brake shoes, and it was like having an acid flashback(I think), even though I never did acid! Anyway; all of the people that were waiting in the front four cars were told to make there way to the last four, then another announcement came to come to the last two cars, then the last one. So evidently communication about which cars remained in the station was not very good. The engineer kept asking the conductors to throw some sort of "toggle". I guess this must have had something to do with being able to open doors on the specific cars they needed to, without opening any others.
Overall, it was a great day, and I am continually amazed and appreciative of the amount of infrastructure improvement that has taken place over the last decade or so. I sure hope they get North side of the Manahattan Bridge opened up ASAP so that things in Brooklyn can get back to normal.
Hey, is there any way I can find out exactly what if any improvements will be made to Ocean Parkway and West 8th Street in conjunction with the Stillwell rebuild?
Another Denverite, eh? What part of town? I'm down in Centennial myself.
I'm up in Westminster. I live a couple of hundred yards off the BN&SF tracks near Wadsworth Blvd and 92nd Ave.
The freight track at Metropolitain is the Bay Ridge line and it's the interchange at Fresh Pond where the new cars come in
Phil Hom
The SMEE era - Classic Oldies
Student - Lowry AFB 72-73, 86, 90 (pre light rail)
Sorry I missed you on the L, but I was on vocation last week. I evey got Sunday and Monday so I took my famly to Shore line Trolly musenm on Sunday and to Myskic on Monday.
Glad you had fun.
Robert
Thought I'd do a take on the terminology used by the 'hip-hop' community. ;)
Any of my SubTalk 'homies' up for some railfanning and exploring over by Pitkin Avenue and Van Sinderin Street Friday night after the ERA meeting? Work to connect the old K tracks with the northbound track just outside of Sutter Avenue is what the GO on the Canarsie Line is all about this weekend.
A report will follow...
Peace Out ;)
We saw yesterday that they were VERY close to connection, not more than ten yards separated the two structures, maybe even less. They didn't seem to be that far along at the other end.
wayne
Put down the crack pipe......8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
....sure, if you put down the bong...LOL! ;)
Dag! How come *I* don't get invited?!?!?! :)
Shizzle!
We now have the following update through November 9, 2002:
No new cars in service, still 8101-8116, 8125-8204, 8213-8236 for 120 cars total.
8237-8244 were about ready for the road. Keep eyes peeled!
8249-8256 testing and 8257-8260 waiting to test.
8261-8268 delivered.
Many thnaks!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Man I've been out a week and someone aready is replacing me. Justr kidding. Good work, Thank for the help.
Robert
No new cars in service, still 8101-8116, 8125-8204, 8213-8236 for 120 cars total
I'm curious, where's 8117-8124, 8205-8212, 8245-8248?
8245-48 was out testing a couple of weeks ago.......
8117-8124 CBTC Test Train, based at East New York ("Test Train" stickers in windows). These have not yet been in passenger service.
8205-8212 Siemens propulsion prototype train, based at Pitkin. Testing possible system for use in the R-160. You may find this on the Sea Beach Line over the next several weeks.
As of November 9, 8245-8248 were @ ENY, Track 23--Burn-in testing.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I been hearing that they may cancel the trip because they do not have a lot of people going. I spoke to one of the gentleman doing the trip and he told me that the MTA wants $10,000 for use of the redbirds on the trip. So that is why they need as many people that can go on the trip. If you need to call them just go to "Upcoming Events" and there is a phone number if you need to ask any questions regarding the trip. But the trip is still going on as planned.
Regards,
Frankie Nicholas-Alexander Perez
Hey I was thinkin on goin where does this start?
SEE HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey thanks for the link just saw it now. As you might see Im younger than most here (16 yrs old), I really just got into the Subway ( I always was intrested but never really got into it) This would be my first time on something like this. Could some of you experts with the Subway kind of give me a run down of what the trips are like. These seem very intrested but if you could give me a little more detail I would really apprciate it as I am considering going on this but a little more detail would give me a better idea. Thanks!!!!
Brian Pawelko
bpawelko@comcast.net
[I been hearing that they may cancel the trip because they do not have a lot of people going.]
Although your facts are not 100% accurate, the gist of what you say is true. The cost to the NYD-ERA by NYCT is fairly high and the non-profit NYD would lose its shirt if not enough railfans attend. At this point, we are cautiously optimistic about attracting enough attendees, but the real proof will be the number of people who send in their money by November 15th, the date after which the price goes up by $10. Hence, it is important for all of you thinking of going to send your money in ASAP. Naturally, if we have to cancel the trip, you would get a full refund. Given the time and effort that is going into planning and carrying out this trip, we are doing all we can to make it a go. If we can get enough responses by November 15th to run the trip, we are sure everyone going on it will have a great time.
As a side note, many thanks to Dave for posting the info about this and the other upcoming NYD-ERA trips under "Upcoming Events". It is greatly appreciated by the Division.
And kudos also to Sid for helping to put this trip together! Now, let's all thank him by buying tickets and making the trip happen (I've bought mine).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I have bought mine too, but have not gotten them back yet. I sent mine out a few weeks ago. Anyone else having problems with not getting them ?
yea, me to I send my money order to the ERA few weeks ago & haven't received my tickets yet.
Some tickets already went out. The guy who sends out the tickets plans to catch up this weekend. Sorry for any inconvenience...
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
[I have bought mine too, but have not gotten them back yet. I sent mine out a few weeks ago. Anyone else having problems with not getting them ?]
Don't worry about not having received your tickets yet. It should now be obvious to you that it doesn't make sense for us to send your tickets until we know that we definitely will be having the trip. We will know for sure by the end of next week, after which you will receive in the return envelope you provided either (1) your ticket(s) or (2) your refund. I hope we are in a position to make it (1) and not (2)!!!
I sent mine in about 3 weeks ago fearing it would sell out. Silly me. I wish you luck.
I sent mine in yesterday. I hope you guys get it.
I too have already contributed to the success of this project ... I hope it runs!
--Mark
I'll be sending in an order for 3 tickets today.
I want to go, but a 9:30 AM departure is impossible for me. 10:00 AM at 59th Street is possible. Are there any others out there who are unable to go because of the departure time?
When the trips leave from the Shuttle platform at 42nd Street, there is usually some slack as to the actual departure time. Ditto for a departure from 57th and 7th. This is not possible when the trip leaves from the express track (or local track for that matter, too) at 59th Street.
So, tonight's TV reports that between 7:30 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. weekdays, the last Manhattan stop for Queensbound E and V trains is Fifth Avenue. The service advisory has simple advice: Get off at Fifth Avenue. I'm hopeful that southbound Lex passengers are reminded to get off at 59th and learn to take the R, which provides half the service. The advisory says, "till 2004"!
Make that no eastbound trains STOP morning rush hours at 53/Lex. They roll through!
I wonder why the R-143's have so low volume when they make their announcements and why they hardly use the outside speakers on the train. I rode the M train over the weekend and you can barely hear it. Is it a problem or they are just keeping the volume low.
Regards,
Frankie Nicholas-Alexander Perez
The 143's have started M service!
Very cool. BMT patrons deserve the best.
Yes, the R143's run on the M, well at least on the weekend shuttle only, for now.
I was amazed last year when I found out the Eastern Division Lines would be the first to get new trains. Usually the J/M/L (only the C is treated worse) get all the hand-me-downs. For once they started with the Eastern Division.
Well, we got the R16's when new. Wait, that wasn't good ...
Well, we got the R16's when new. Wait, that wasn't good ...
Ahh yes the R16's - every ride was an adventure.
(You'd never know where you'd stop or which station you would have to get to get off at).
Usually the J/M/L (only the C is treated worse)
I think that the "G" is treated the worst. They put R-10's being maintained out of PITKIN on the line, just to put crappy cars on the line.
Very cool. BMT patrons deserve the best.
Well, we've certainly had the rest. I'm sick of seeing my beloved eastern division getting hand-me-downs, lemons, or rebuilt cars. Hopefully the R143's will be the first cars on the eastern division since the multisection cars that'll be none of those.
Exterior speakers are only used for manual announcements.
actually...no. exterior speakers are supposed to project automated announcemets. the reason why the speakers are not so loud or isn't being projected outsided is either there is something wrong with the p.a. system or the t/o's are still learning the controls of the train.
I haven't heard them used for an automated announcement once, has anyone else?
The announcements seem fine to me anyway, except when they announce transfers that haven't been available in a year and get cut off when the doors close.
Haven't ridden the R143s, but the exterior speakers on the R142[A]s are often (though not always) used to announce the route and next stop when the train is in a station. i.e., "This is a Bronx-bound 6 train. The next stop is 33 St." is announced on the exterior speakers.
I haven't heard them used for an automated announcement once, has anyone else?
They use the exterior automated announcements on the M Shuttle on the weekends. I find them quite loud. I was a block away from the station and heard them announce the whole speach, "This is a Middle Village bound M train, next stop Fresh Pond Road, etc." It was loud. I was even thinking that I would be pissed if I had to listen to those announcements all night if I had an apartment next to an el station. In the subway it doesn't matter because they are not bothering anyone, but at the outdoor el stations, I think it can be an annoyance for people trying to sleep.
they actually not loud.or atleast i think so. its just that it projects the sound (i think thats one of the pluses of digital audio tech) if you stand next to it, you wouldn't say its loud.
Since I work on the R143's all the time on the L, I can tell you that the exterior speeker can be turned on and off by ether the T/O or C/R. The exterior speeker are to be turned off between the hours of 9:00pm and 7:00am when out side the tunnels. The exerior only are used when inside a station with the door open, and only on that side.
Robert
i know that they can be turned off and on by a t/o or cr. i was around when the m train r-143 was running. of course i could hear it on the street, but when i was indoors i didn't hear it except when the train rumbled into the station. i didn't hear the exterior announcements. and if anybody gets annoyed by it, most likely they won't complain.
but it does serve a purpose to turn it off at night. because of low ridership on those lines at night, it doesn't serve a purpos to keep them on.
Yeah, I only saw a problem if the didn't shut it off at night. I didn't realize that they shut it off after a certain time at the outdoor stations. During the day it's fine.
It based on the same rule as not using your horn during the same time fram execpt in an emegsey. It is to keep from waking people from sleeping.
robert
Hahahaha ... come on out and live in FREIGHT country, with grade crossings where it *WAS* quiet, before the ball went red. :)
i have heard them project. they are more audible outside than inside. the audio inside is very faint. its like listening to a conductor on an older model train where the p.a. isn't working well. it isn't loud enough.
The volume is perfect. The R142's are too loud.
i don't know but.. i think that the reason that the R-142 speakers are too loud is because of the featured noise elimination. when noise increases, the speakers get louder so people can hear. the other new model cars are supposed to have them but i haven't heard them work.
I caught part of a report about Amtrak on tonight's NewsHour (6:00-7:00 on Channel 21, 7:00-8:00 on Channel 13).
There was a paseing mention that, when Amtrak discontinues a line, the employees on that line receive TWO YEARS' worth of severance pay! I have two questions:
1. Is that only for those who lose their jobs, or it it also for those who pick (or are reassigned to) other lines?
2. What if the discontinuation is part of a network restructuring which results in no net change (or even a net increase) in the total amount of work?
For example: Suppose that the Maple Leaf were eliminated and a second Adirondack added. Would Amtrak have to pay severance to the Maple Leaf crew and then hire a brand new Adirondack crew? Or could the displaced Maple Leaf crew(s) simply work the additional Adirondack (and could they do so while receiving severance from the Maple Leaf)?
Alright here's the next one. The Empire State Building seems to be watching over this scene in the distance. Although, maybe it's not the Empire State because there seems to be some shorter building right next to it, although that may only be an illusion of depth perception. It possibly may be Manhattan. However there seems to be a bunch of abandoned buildings on the left, and a wide open space, so maybe in Brooklyn? The Empire State Seems too close for this to be the Bronx, if that even is the ESB, which I am beginning to doubt.
It looks to be a pretty impressive junction right here. It seems that the photo was taken from an express stop, with the express tracks going either up to some other two track line, or going further on this three track line. The local tracks also could either go up to the two track line, or continue their path. A pretty impressive and very neat, symmetrical junction.
I've been there, but can't remember where. It's the Bronx and that junction still exists and might have been reworked only recently. I *think* it's the Jerome line perhaps or the 2/5 but I can't place WHERE ... but I sure do remember that and saw a picture of that junction recently HERE somewhere ...
It's the Bronx and that junction still exists and might have been reworked only recently.
Sure, just the borough, I thought I ruled out. Oh well, I'm sure someone will be able to confirm.
The problem is that no matter which borough it is, all the surrounding buildings may be gone, and the area around this el, whether the el still exists or not may look totally different. The buildings and neighborhood look to be in bad shape at the time of this photo, so the whole area may look different now.
I'm sure the junction's gone now too, but I *do* remember seeing that in a picture and I'm pretty sure I was on a train facing that junction when I was a kid ... but then I may be completely wrong too ...
Wouldn't it be a hoot if that's South Ferry? :)
You are looking downtown from the Canal St station on the Third Ave El.
Meaning that the tall building is NOT the ESB.
Meaning that the tall building is NOT the ESB.
It's the Cathedral of Commerce.
Not unless it was moved uptown while nobody was looking.
Really? I could SWEAR that there's a junction just like that on one of the Bronx IRT els ... might have been north of Gunhill, might have been on the Jerome where the 9th split off, but I swear I've seen that before and I wasn't around for the lower 3rd Avenue ...
might have been north of Gunhill, might have been on the Jerome where the 9th split off
For both of those junctions the 2-track El tracks decended from the 3-track structure. The 2-track diversion is rising in this instance.
Not to worry, I'm not doubting YOU, I'm doubting ME. :)
Yup, here's a pic of that junction from the opposite direction. I think Chris's pic was taken from the Canal St. platform itself:
Good enough for me ...
It's even more apparent here:
Those are the two tall buildings in downtown Brooklyn,
That makes this the Myrtle Line when it still went across the Brooklyn Bridge. Some tracks go tow to the Fulton Street Ferry Landing, and he others aim off to the bridge.
Leastwise that is what it is until someone else contradicts me! : )
Elias
We've solved this one. It's the 3rd Ave. el looking south from Canal St. The tracks rising go to the upper level of hat monstrosity of a station called Chatham Sq.
Yeah, I think Stephen and Chris are right. The photo above definitely looks like my photo from the opposite direction.
BTW, what cross-street did the el run over when intersecting with Canal, and where did the merging route go?
I can't believe that's Canal Street with the El intersecting it! ALthough it amazes me when I am on any street in Manhattan where there used to be an el. The other day I was at 86th Street and 3rd at Papaya King, and they have some great photos of the el on the wall running right in front of their store. It's hard to believe that an el used to run right in front of those buildings for so many years. Although even Jamaica Avenue amazes me, and I remember that el, wheras I never even seen any of the Manhattan els.
I believe the el ran along the Bowery from Canal St to Houston (2 stops north).
Your pic would be even better if it had been taken closer to Chatham Sq. That station was very bizarre, with the 2nd Ave el crossing over it at a 45 degree angle, with conections to it, the City Hall spur and the branch to South Ferry. It makes Atlantic Ave look like Crescent St!
Speaking of Atlantic av, how far have they come to completing the new manhattan bound connection from sutter av to Broadway junction in East New York
thanks
john
Well the picture looks to have been taken back in the 1930's or 40's and my impression is that this is the 3rd ave el facing south toward Chatman Square and the decending tracks are for the 2nd av El. Check out the train roster pictures on this site under manhattan els and I think you may see some simular pictures.
I caught part of a report about Amtrak on tonight's NewsHour (6:00-7:00 on Channel 21, 7:00-8:00 on Channel 13).
There was a passing mention that, when Amtrak discontinues a line, the employees on that line receive TWO YEARS' worth of severance pay! I have two questions:
1. Is that only for those who lose their jobs, or it it also for those who pick (or are reassigned to) other lines?
2. What if the discontinuation is part of a network restructuring which results in no net change (or even a net increase) in the total amount of work?
For example: Suppose that the Maple Leaf were eliminated and a second Adirondack added. Would Amtrak have to pay severance to the Maple Leaf crew and then hire a brand new Adirondack crew? Or could the displaced Maple Leaf crew(s) simply work the additional Adirondack (and could they do so while receiving severance from the Maple Leaf)?
As you might see Im younger than most here (16 yrs old), I really just got into the Subway ( I always was intrested but never really got into it) This would be my first time on something like this. Could some of you experts with the Subway kind of give me a run down of what the trips are like. These seem very intrested but if you could give me a little more detail I would really apprciate it as I am considering going on this but a little more detail would give me a better idea. Thanks!!!!
Brian Pawelko
bpawelko@comcast.net
[Could some of you experts with the Subway kind of give me a run down of what the trips are like.]
A trip like the Dec. 8th Redbird Fan Trip is planned with the rail fan in mind. This particular trip features equipment that probably won't be around the system much longer and the itinerary will take the redbirds to the B Division, which is unusual. With an eye towards not interfering with public operations that day, opportunites are usually still offered for interesting photo stops and run-by's. For example, on a line with an express track, attendees are given the opportunity to ride ahead on a regular service train to the next local stop, from where they can photograph the redbirds as they go by. The redbirds would, of course, wait at the next express stop to pick up the photographers taking the next local train. There will be many other rail fans on the trip, so there is usually some very good conversation available. I think it is safe to say than most rail fans that have been on trips like this in the past have found them enjoyable for the most part. We'd love to have you (and many others) come try it out. It should be a trip that will be worth remembering, both personally and through the photos you would take.
Sounds really cool I use the subway all the time and it intrest me so basiclly by going I can learn alot from other people and get some good pictures to remember along with a rewarding expirence huh. If so count me in just as long as im free that day
Remember to order your tickets soon...tickets purchased after November 15 (this Friday; postmarked date) will be $55 instead of $45 -- order tickets at this Friday's NYD-ERA meeting if you like. We have to have a certain number of attendees to run the trip, and we need to achieve that magic number soon, so order now!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Just watch out for the "foamers" and you'll be fine ... you'll find most of them near the front of the train < grin >
This writer has learned a lot from them ... enjoy !
If I am not mistaken, the Ramadan holiday is approaching or is here.
I would like to extend best wishes for a safe and peaceful Ramadan to Subtalkers and their friends and family of Muslim faith.
If I am not mistaken, the Ramadan holiday is approaching or is here.
I would like to extend best wishes for a safe and peaceful Ramadan to Subtalkers and their friends and family of Muslim faith.
Good Post Ron, I'll second it. Best Wishes to our friends of the Islamic faith.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do you see the irony regarding the family name...
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/34885p-33014c.html
Gee, he must have been really ticked off - 14 shots to the brother.
Didn't say how many to the dog.
*Gee, he must have been really ticked off - 14 shots to the brother.*
I'd rather have two shots from Old Grandad....*VBG*
Just as ironic as the last name of that bitch caught beating the crap out her kid on video last month, Toogood was her last name.
Peace,
ANDEE
I always thought the Love Canal was a pretty ironic name, too.
Does anybody have any reasonable guesstimates about the probability of redbirds still running between December 29th and January 5th? If so, where and when (more than likely during rush hour) would they most likely be found?
-Robert King
The # 7 and prob afew 5's during the rush hour and thats about it .At this rate by March 2003 only the 7 will have some birds.
Does anyone know when the last of the "Redbirds" are expected to be retired?
#3 West End Jeff
When I drop dead of old age!!! 25/55 retirement will make me 73.
CI Peter remains OnTheJuice #5 Redbirds.
I'm sure you'll be around when the last of the "Redbirds" are retired from passenger service. I have a funny feeling that they'll be gone towards next summer.
#3 West End Jeff
#5 Crew provides Salvation. Redbirds Live Forever in our hearts!
The #7 line is in the process in replacing the World's fair R36's with R62A's. And the R62A cars break down more frequently than the R36's. Last Saturday at Queensboro Plaza, the conductor could NOT open any doors on the train, he had to key each car manually, to let the customers out. That's how bad these R62A's are in need of better maintenance, they have a good 24 years left of life to go.
"That's how bad these R62A's are in need of better maintenance, they have a good 24 years left of life to go."
That is interesting to hear, because reports on this board in the past have suggested that the R62 and R62As have already had various repairs made to them (which could be true). However, it has also been stated that they won't need the major overhaul that the birds had back in the 1980s. But now, who knows what they will need. -Nick
The next sound you will hear is a barge fishing the retired redbirds
OUT OF THE WATER TO BE PUT BACK IN SERVICE !! ..................lol
oh yea !
Beautiful Picture!! Long may they live!!
oh yea ! took that photo and others with the love they deserve
Definitely on the 7, probably on the 4 and 5. Except for a possible guest appearance on the 2, you won't find them anywhere else.
What I'll probably do is visit 7 during the day and then cover 4 and 4 during a rush hour, maybe on different days.
-Robert King
Today I had the pleasure of handing out "Save the Fare" fliers today with the union. We were at the 42nd TSQ mezzanine,I was the one with the Pony tale and TWU jersey on. Did any fellow subtalkers see the specialist?
You wanna ride on my Redbird Carbody???? Two bucks, all motor brushes and air filters replaced. I don't sweep out underseat dirt or clean floors. My Carbody smells like...a freshened urinal!!! If I had known you made an appearance...I certainly would have made the effort to back you up. Right, no more scratchitti and five bucks a ride. CI Peter
[Right, no more scratchitti and five bucks a ride.]
What?! Five bucks a ride?!! I say make it an even six...;)
Yo man, you SAW that guy licking his chops at taking apart that BMT standard ... watch what you wish for, $6 a ride would buy him a whole SET of tools ... and I've gotten to know him enough to guarantee you that when he puts that standard back on the rails, it'll zip along like 6688 but he'll have a Ryder truck filled with leftover parts. Just don't go there and put down the quackpipe. :)
Well, it may take longer for 2775 to get up to speed compared to 6688. Two 140-hp motors trying to get 47-49 tons of steel moving vs. four 100-hp motors moving 37-38 tons. 6688 would win a drag race hands down.
Not that the BMT standards accelerated all that sluggishly. They did pretty good on the Canarsie line.
Put it this way: if CI Peter wants to give it a shot, turn him loose.
Resistors and contacts can be altered...Redbirds did lose one powerful step of 'propulsky.' They keep telling me that notch in the MCC does not exist but the crew balks when I do sequence and get stuck in it...the group box has a number of sawed-off fingers.
#3 parallel sans the grid. Funny how these things come up...yesterday, called to give a hand with DBRT braking failure...fixed itself...what was interesting is that the schematic indicated a switch in the T/O cab for 'energy conservation.'
SSsssshhhhh! That switch does not exist, that's a prohibited thought. Now bang yourself in, mister. :)
When I saw the title, I was afraid you'd turned up on a milk carton, bro. :)
LOL!
That's worth a double moo.:)
HEY HEY MADE THE 11 O'CLOCK NEWS ON CHANNEL 4
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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It was a mixed bag for rail transit initiatives around the country November 5.
While cities from Miami, Florida to Riverside, California gave a thumbs up, the folks in cities such as Seattle, Washington and Kansas City, Missouri said, “no way.”
Voters in Miami and Dade County voted almost 2 to 1 to build a multi-billion dollar mass transit system that includes construction and operation of a network of new rail lines, which eventually will reach every quadrant of the county.
Miami-Dade Mayor Alex Pinelas described the project as “huge.”
“This is huge for generations to come,” agreed Miami-Dade Commissioner Bruno Barreiro.
“Twenty years from now,” he told the Miami Herald, “this community will look a lot different. You will have Metrorail and Metrobus to every corner of Miami-Dade County, and even into Broward County.” Vastly expanded bus service is also part of the integrated package.
Ninety miles of rail lines are included, bringing to reality the original plan for Metrorail as a network of trains fed by buses and reaching across Miami-Dade to the Broward line.
In California, Riverside voters gave the go-ahead to extend for another 30-years a 1/2-cent sales tax for transportation improvements that include expansion of Metrolink commuter rail service from Riverside to Perris and Hemet-San Jacinto.
Statewide, however, California voters rejected Proposition 51, an all inclusive transportation measure that would have established a new trust fund, and would have used money from an existing tax on motor vehicles for specific projects to expand mass transit.
A half-cent sales tax referendum fared poorly in the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C. Voters there slapped down a measure whose backers promised all kinds of things both for roads and for transit.
Rail operators are now scrambling for “Plan B” (the Washington Post’s description).
Virginia Railway Express commuter rail service had counted on $100 million to pay for 50 new cars. The top manager of VRE said this means more crowding and that in about a year from now, the trains won’t be able to carry any additional passengers.
Metrorail, the rapid transit “subway” whose 103-mile system links Virginia with D.C. and Maryland had counted on money from the sales tax for maintenance of trains, buses and stations.
However, the ballot initiative also was to pour billions into highway projects, and the conspicuous support of the Northern Virginia business establishment, especially those who stood to reap the benefit of this taxpayer largesse, stirred some resentment among taxpayers who conducted a David and Goliath battle that led to the proposal’s resounding defeat. Ironically, opponents contended that the vast highway and roads component of the measure would lead to road-builder and developer-instigated “sprawl,” notwithstanding the transit segments of the plan. Opponents note their 55 percent to 45 percent victory came despite being outspent 25-to-1.
Further south, voters in the Norfolk-Hampton Roads-Virginia Beach area knocked down a 1-cent sales tax increase that would have included $200 million worth of unspecified mass transit projects, possibly including a light rail line in Norfolk.
In terms of pure confusion, even for a mixed message, Seattle may take the prize. We will try to navigate the ticket:
The voters there appear to have narrowly approved a measure to create a new “Seattle Popular Monorail Authority” to oversee construction of a 14-mile monorail line to serve the city’s downtown and west side. As of Friday, the initiative was still leading, though absentee ballots (still being counted) had narrowed the margin somewhat.
At the same time, a ballot proposal that would slash 20 percent of the funding from Sound Transit’s light rail budget was approved, but hold the phone!
Just a few days before the election, a judge had ruled that the Sound Transit Agency did not even need to ask the voters to reaffirm support for a planned rail line from downtown Seattle to Tukwila [See story in Commuter lines, below – Ed].
Anti-transit pro-highway activist Tim Eyman crafted the measure. He said the latest Election Day vote was more a shot at light rail than an anti-tax movement. It would reduce car tabs to $30 partially by repealing a 0.3 percent excise tax that feeds Sound Transit.
King County (Seattle) Executive Ron Sims, who chairs the agency, said he believes the measure will be thrown out “just as many of Eyman’s past tax-slashing measures have been.” Count on future court battles there.
The voters of Washington State also apparently deep-sixed Referendum 51, a gasoline tax proposed by the state legislature that would have included funding for intercity freight and passenger rail, public transportation, and passenger ferries.
Washington Gov. Gary Locke said the outcome of the Tuesday’s vote “was not the end of our efforts to improve transportation.”
“Hundreds of thousands of people across the state said they want transportation improvements,” the governor added, “They just didn’t want the package that was on the ballot.” He promised to seek a bipartisan effort on a revised plan.
That long-running soap opera in the Northwest has yet to play itself out.
In Las Vegas, Nevada, the locals in the gambling city – which is overrun with tourist traffic on a year-round basis – decided they would take action to put an infusion of money from quarter-cent sales tax into a fund to relieve the congestion in part by strengthening mass transit’s role in the transportation mix.
That would include extending monorail to downtown Fremont Street, and expand a new commuter rail system to outlying areas via Union Pacific Railroad from Strip/downtown to Henderson-Boulder City and Strip/downtown to Apex-Ivanpah.
Denton County, Texas approved transit big time. By a healthy margin, they okayed a Denton County Transportation Authority that would include a $132 million commuter rail line from Denton to Carrollton, where Denton County’s train will meet Dallas Area Rapid Transit trains for service to Dallas. Essentially, DCTA will work with Dallas’ DAR and Ft. Worth’s FWTA’s “T” to extend rail transit lines to Denton County.
Kansas City, Missouri offered less happy news for transit advocates. There, the voters defeated by a landside proportions a ten-year 1/2 percent sales tax increase that would have included reinstating the city’s historic street cars (using modern technology) for connecting neighborhoods and destinations in the downtown urban core. It also would have funded a regional transit hub at the North Waiting room at Union Station, providing convenient connections for suburban commuter trains, downtown streetcars, Amtrak, buses, light rail express routes, and walking and bicycle greenway trails.
Cincinnati, Ohio, by more than 2 to 1, defeated a 1/2-cent sales tax hike that would have included 60 miles of light rail improvements in Hamilton County. There would have been new light rail lines in Interstate 71, Interstate 75, and Interstate 74 corridors. Two additional light-rail lines would have run from Xavier University to Eastgate and Northside.
Charleston, South Carolina narrowly approved a half-cent sales tax increase for “traffic congestion relief” that will include $335 million for mass transit.
By a thin margin, Boulder County, Colorado defeated a proposal to increase its debt for key transportation upgrades such as “rail, buses, high-occupancy vehicle lanes, special transit and bike and pedestrian paths.”
The ski resort city of Aspen, Colorado turned down a plan to authorize a citizens group to raise funds and operate city-owned trolleys. The Aspen City Railway Co. would have served a route between Gondola Plaza and the post office replacing the Galena Street shuttle. Without authority for the restoration, the six antique trolleys will be given away to another city.
How does one explain the overall transit picture November 5? What is the message? Explanations that have been offered range from a mistrust of transportation planners to an anti-tax mood, pure and simple. Only a minority point of view (such as the one we have already cited) holds that the outcome stemmed from an inherent antipathy to mass transit. Voters generally were just as hostile to paying more taxes to highways as for mass transit, if not more so.
The voters, or so the theory goes, are not necessarily visionaries. Many of them will open their wallets only to those things they actually see as opposed to those still on drawing boards.
Anti-transit pro-highway activist Tim Eyman crafted the [Washington] measure. He said the latest Election Day vote was more a shot at light rail than an anti-tax movement. It would reduce car tabs to $30 partially by repealing a 0.3 percent excise tax that feeds Sound Transit.
King County (Seattle) Executive Ron Sims, who chairs the agency, said he believes the measure will be thrown out “just as many of Eyman’s past tax-slashing measures have been.” Count on future court battles there.
Courts have thrown out two prior antitax initiatives in Washington on technical grounds. In 2000, the initiative which called for the repeal of the statewide MV excise tax was struck down mainly because it did not set out the full text of the statutes being repealed, which was the sort of requirement that only a very careful reading of the Washington Constitution would have uncovered (the legislature later made the repeal part of state law). Eyman and his followers have learned from experience and now are much more diligent in crafting their ballot proposals..
The 0.3% Seattle-area MV excise tax for Sound Transit may remain in effect despite approval of the initiative due to bond obligations. Eyman and the other proponents were aware of that possibility and worded the proposal accordingly.
Cincinnati, Ohio, by more than 2 to 1, defeated a 1/2-cent sales tax hike that would have included 60 miles of light rail improvements in Hamilton County. There would have been new light rail lines in Interstate 71, Interstate 75, and Interstate 74 corridors. Two additional light-rail lines would have run from Xavier University to Eastgate and Northside.
That's unfortunate, but hardly surprising. This is the same city that would rather see basic city services and public schools go down the toilet than raise their already-low taxes by a fraction of a cent. And then they act so shocked and outraged when riots break out in disadvantaged neighborhoods. From censorship to police brutality to Marge Schott, Cincinnati routinely embodies the worst of fanatical knee-jerk Republicanism. And I fear that it's just a microcosm of where the rest of the country is headed if things continue on their present course.
I love my hometown of Cincinnati dearly, but you'll never catch me moving back there anytime soon. If they want to turn themselves into another Houston by rejecting a perfectly sensible -- and desperately needed -- light rail system, that's fine by me. I won't be there to watch it happen.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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Businesses and officials hope Amtrak’s Downeaster service will stop in Old Orchard Beach, Maine year-round. The community is, for now, a summer-only stop on the Portland-Boston route over Guilford Rail System tracks. Service stopped on October 31 until next spring, the AP reported on November 6.
“I see no reason why we can’t be a year-round stop,” said Town Councilor Darryl Chandler. “The beach is beautiful in the winter.”
More than 4,600 people traveled to and from the town from July to September, generating revenues in excess of $70,000.
Those figures are impressive, given that the Amtrak train only began stopping in town seven weeks before Labor Day, said James Harmon, executive director of the Chamber of Commerce. Harmon and other business owners said there is no reason the town cannot operate all year.
“I think it will be a natural progression,” Harmon said, and added they “built the platform with that in mind. The focus now will be to develop a marketing campaign to bring more people to Old Orchard Beach.”
Business owners say the Downeaster has the potential to extend the tourist season. “It’s difficult to attract clientele during the off-season around here,” said Rick Payette, co-owner of the Landmark Restaurant. “I think the train would definitely help.”
John Englert, executive director of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority, said there are no discussions planned about making the town a year-round stop, but said it is a future possibility. “Right now we’re all fairly comfortable with the seasonal aspect,” he said.
Jonathan Carter, chairman of the board for the authority, said it would take a few more seasons before such a change could be adopted. “I feel that Old Orchard Beach was a huge success for us this year, and it’s certainly something that if the service is going to continue to be successful, we need to take a look at it,” he said.
I rode past Old Orchard Beach on my way to Portland a couple of weeks ago. The amusement area is right by the tracks. The abandoned amusement park looked spooky in the snowy 35 degree weather. Of course i didn't see a soul out the window. The train stopped but it was scheduled to, until the end of Oct.
www.forgotten-ny.com
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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Under high fog and dim pre-dawn light, the last B.C. Rail passenger train left Prince George, British Columbia on October 31 with 72 passengers.
B.C. Rail is derailing the Prince George-to-North Vancouver passenger service to cut costs, Canadian Press reported.
Prince George station personnel present for the start of the final run noted that more passengers would be picked up at Quesnel, Williams Lake and other centers, and the two Budd cars would be full by the time the train reached Lillooet.
The train arrived in North Vancouver around 10 p.m. that night.
A banner on the Budd car commemorated 88 years of service for the rail line. B.C. Rail is cutting the service in what it calls a fight for its own survival.
Spokesman Alan Devers called it a sad day for the railway, which is losing $5 million a year on the route. He said B.C. Rail is in a financial fight for its survival and it needs to focus on its core business of moving freight. The only passenger service left will be a 60-kilometer run from Darcy to Lillooet.
Dave Johnson, a director of AmericaRail Tours, was in charge of 23 U.S. tourists who were among the passengers on the last train.
He said they were railway enthusiasts who had specifically traveled to Prince George to take the trip on the last Cariboo Prospector.
At 6:55 a.m. the metal platforms for passengers to step on the train were pulled up for the last time as conductors called out, “All Aboard!”
“’Board!” the conductor called, and the last Cariboo Prospector passenger train to leave Prince George, B.C. left the depot enroute to North Vancouver, B.C.
Cameras flashed both inside the train and on the platform as people sought to record the historic last departure. As the train started to move out, a woman working in the still open baggage compartment said hopefully to well-wishers on the platform, “We’ll be back. We’ll be back.”
Station personnel on the platform embraced and many broke into tears as the train moved out past the platform on its last run.
Inside the brightly lit, modern passenger terminal, a woman took a group photo of them during their last shift working together.
As one service ended, though, another began. Shuttle service from D’Arcy to Lillooet began on November 1. The Seton Lake Indian Band and BC Rail launched its new service between D’Arcy and Lillooet.
It will operate year round on BC Ry. and will make at least one return trip from Seton Portage to Lillooet each day. The shuttle service will use two new 20-seat rail shuttle vehicles (RSVs).
The Indian band will manage the passenger bookings, ticket sales, revenue collection, marketing and customer service and BC Rail will operate the RSVs.
“We are pleased to be part of a unique solution that offers a service for people along Anderson and Seton Lakes,” said Cliff Casper, Seton Lake Band Councilor.
“We are working diligently with BC Rail to bring us one step closer to the inaugural run of this important shuttle service for the D’Arcy to Lillooet corridor.”
Service between D’Arcy and Lillooet and additional trips between Seton Portage and Lillooet will be on a demand basis, with at least four passengers required per trip. All passengers must pre-purchase tickets by making a booking at least three days in advance. Shuttle Saver tickets will be distributed by the Seton Lake Band at select stations and/or onboard the RSVs. Ticket pricing will be similar to current fares in the corridor – exact prices will be released in the near future.
The Rail Shuttle Vehicles will service D’Arcy early morning prior to departing Seton for Lillooet if more than 4 persons have made bookings at least 3 days in advance. Similarly the RSVs will service D’Arcy in the afternoon as an extension of the afternoon run from Lillooet to Seton Portage.
This is really sad news - it was a wonderful scenic run.
It really was more of a tourist run than an actual usable railway, though. The schedule was awful, averaging something like 30 mph.
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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Williamsburg, Mass., is a woodsy neighbor to Northampton, but a single question has inflamed the passions of some residents: Who owns the patchwork remnants of an abandoned railroad right-of-way, dormant, and little noticed, for more than twenty years?
Some property owners who live beside the old railroad route say the land belongs to them. Others say it belongs to an electric company that wants to sell it to the town for a public bicycle path – and the opposing camps in this town of 2,427 have accused each other of harassment and threats, of hang-up phone calls in the wee hours, of barking dogs planted to intimidate, the Boston Globe reported on November 3.
The country is criss-crossed with nearly 12,000 miles of railroad corridors reborn as public trails. Massachusetts already has 14 rail trails and the conversion of 65 more is underway.
“I guess what’s unusual here is the bile, the venom, the hostility that is palpable,” said Larry Hott, vice president of Burghy Bikers, the group fighting for the Williamsburg path.
The argument that began festering here in the 1980s, and that now hinges on the interpretation of a technical property law, will go before the Supreme Judicial Court. Two years ago, a lower court judge threw out the neighbors’ lawsuit, ruling that the land belonged to Massachusetts Electric Co.
Linda Sarafin Rowley, the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit, insists the case is not about the bike path but about citizens fighting a corporate behemoth. Mass. Electric’s claims to her property, she says, include a chunk of land that runs beneath her house.
“What we’re fighting for is simply to be allowed to live in our homes in peace and quiet,” said Rowley, a former nurse who quit her job five years ago to pursue the lawsuit full time.
Rowley lives in the house on Hatfield Road that her great-grandparents bought around 1900. The house was handed down, generation by generation, until she and her husband moved in nine years ago.
She says she cannot tear down a small, old barn and build a new one, or add a stone retaining wall along a crumbling bank, because the ownership of those sections of her property is disputed. Sheri Cone, a fellow neighbor and plaintiff, said the planned sale of her house fell apart a few years ago when the buyers learned about the murky title and walked away.
And Richard Goldman, another plaintiff, said he lost money on a restaurant he sold because the disputed territory ran through the parking lot.
“What’s kept us together is principle,” he said, sitting at Rowley’s kitchen table one day last week. “How dare a large corporation try to roll over people’s property rights?”
Still, the landowners make no secret of their dislike for a bicycle path that would veer close to their houses. “Your backyard is like a room of your house when you live in the country,” argued their lawyer, Wendy Sibbison.
Since the contentious land issue arose, lawyers and residents have been looking through 150 years of paperwork, scrutinizing old deeds and railroad maps. In 1866, the Legislature gave permission to the New Haven and Northampton Rail Co. to extend its tracks from Northampton to Williamsburg. Within a decade, the railroad bought some strips of land for the tracks, and got easements across others, but in 1962, the railroad stopped running and eventually ripped up its tracks.
In 1971, the Penn Central Transportation Co., the eventual successor to the original railroad, sold some of its land, including the Williamsburg strip, to Massachusetts Electric. Sibbison argues that the railroad could not sell what it did not own – and it did not own the strips of property.
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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New York Regional Rail Corp. said last week it has been awarded a multi-year contract for its rail subsidiary, New York Cross Harbor (NYCH) from Balfour Beatty Construction Co., Inc. to receive, store and transfer freight cars containing bridge beams and supports for constructing the new Sikorsky Bridge over the Housatonic River.
The railroad expects to earn $250,000 and $500,000 over next two years from the project, which represents a 20 percent to 40 percent increase in rail revenues.
Bridge beams, as long as 120 feet and as high as 16 feet, are fabricated in Vancouver, Wash., and shipped by rail across the country.
NYCH is able barge freight cars to waterfront locations. The steel beams are transferred from flat cars to specially outfitted barges, and then taken directly to the construction site where they are lifted on to the bridge span.
The Sikorsky Bridge, being built for Connecticut DOT by Balfour Beatty, is a major link in Connecticut Route 15, the Merritt Parkway.
The bridge components will move the final 100 miles through the congested New York metropolitan area.
They are going to have to learn how to get up the East River, thru Hell Gate & across Long Island Sound. Am wondering if they'll be able to use the City owned tugs to do that ? Am also wondering if the beams will come off the rail cars in NJ ... no need for them to stay on the rail cars for the water trip.
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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U. S. Maritime Administrator Capt. William G. Schubert warned shippers and receivers on November 1 that large U.S. ports area heading toward a glut.
The Maritime Administration report, based on a survey of 70 percent of American intermodal ports. It focused on the state of roadway, rail, and waterside access.
Schubert said it found that “while intermodal connections at U.S. ports may be good enough now to keep cargo moving, they probably won’t be in a few years.”
Expected increases in cargo traffic will strain the system especially in already congested metropolitan areas and major trade corridors.
“Getting a ship into port is only part of the story,” said Schubert.
“If the goods can’t move quickly away from the water, then our transportation system isn’t doing the job.”
He noted that most ports anticipate greater cargo flows in the future.
An emerging need for all U.S. Ports, especially container ports, is for real-time traffic information.
Radio transmission and web-based information on traffic conditions is of increasing importance to ports and transportation providers as they manage the inland movement of marine cargo. That is reflected in the large number of ports reporting unacceptable conditions in these emerging elements of the intermodal access system.
Significant access issues are found on the local access roads to ports, and at-grade rail crossings. Truck-only routes are of increasing significance as cargo volumes grow and there is a critical need to separate freight and passenger traffic on local roads and on state and interstate roads.
The report also revealed the positive results of intermodal access investments. More than 90 percent of the ports reported acceptable or higher conditions in terms of the availability of on-dock rail facilities and aids to navigation on the waterways.
The Maritime Administration, which uses the acronym “MARAD,” said it “will continue its assessment on the access to the marine ports and terminals, on an annual basis, to address the magnitude of intermodal access issues that impact the flow of commerce.”
The agency said the action “will complement other departmental initiatives in identifying the direction and trend that these intermodal interface linkages between land and water impact congestion on our transportation system that threatens our economy and well-being.”
MARAD is primarily responsible for encouraging the development and maintenance of a competitive United States merchant fleet “that is capable of carrying the nation’s domestic waterborne commerce and a substantial portion of its waterborne foreign commerce.”
From Destination Freedom:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11112002.shtml
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UAfter an 18-year struggle that finally turned around when pro-transit Mayor Dick Greco took office and got behind the project, Tampa brought back the first in a series of trolley lines it had shut down in 1946. That was in October.
Shepherded by Hillsborough County Area Regional Transit (HARTLine) Engineering Director Steve Carroll and City of Tampa Chief Design Engineer Tom Capell, and with the direct involvement of top Mayoral aide Ron Rotella, the first 2.3 mile segment opened to much fanfare October 19 and 20, with some 20,000 riders.
Regular ridership is expected to top 300,000 per year, with most business concentrated on the weekends, since the first segment serves Tampa’s thriving entertainment district, Ybor City, connecting it to the convention center and waterfront area. Ridership will grow as the route is extended over the next five years to the main downtown business area, and then to one of Tampa’s oldest residential neighborhoods.
The $53 million project (trolley line plus development, when completed) benefits from a unique operating fund endowment which will augment farebox revenues. Naming rights to individual trolley cars (there are eight) and station stops are being sold, and advertising will be a key part of operating revenues, according to Rotella.
Federal grants will help with operating costs for the first three years. The line gets about $12 million from the local gas tax – but the line got a big boost when HFC Corp. granted $1 million to Historic Streetcar, Inc., a nonprofit corporation formed to manage the operation of the system, to pay the system to take down a failed people mover, and $4 million for the operating endowment.
Unlike strictly public systems, Tampa’s operator “will have the ability to invest available revenues to support future operation of the system” noted Steve Carroll.
Observers expect that Tampa’s example will be studied closely by other communities interested in bringing back streetcar service, as many are doing across America.
For example, New Orleans is restoring trolley (or “streetcar”) service to Canal Street after a lapse of 38 years, and a streetcar named Desire is also in the works. Recall New Orleans’ French connections and you’ll get the right pronunciation.
Tampa’s eight streetcars are from-the-ground-up recreations of the historic Birney trolley cars that ran in Tampa from 1896 to 1946. Built on original Birney chassis by Gomaco of Idaho (online at http://www.gomacotrolley.com/Resources/tampaopening1.html,) the eight cars cost only about $600,000 each, yet are fully modernized and air conditioned for the hot Tampa climate.
They run on standard-gauge track reinstalled in Tampa’s streets in a special right-of-way, and even cross CSX railroad’s track that run parallel to the main streets of Ybor City. That required an elaborate permanent flagman system to insure safety.
The TECOLine operators are re-trained bus drivers from HARTLine, which runs TECOLine under contract from Historic Streetcar Inc.
There are many features of Tampa’s trolley revival which show the kinds of creative thinking that will be necessary to streetcar revival in other cities, a growing trend across America as city officials realize that the trolleys they ripped up 50 years ago comprised an essential element of downtown’s vitality and economic health. As transportation planners come to appreciate the huge impact on real estate values that a vibrant downtown can bring to a city, trolleys are likely to become more and more the solution of choice for urban transportation.
HARTLine’s SteveCarroll wrote a technical description of the project. He wrote that the The first Teco “line segment extends from Ybor City through the Channelside and Garrison Seaport Districts to the Tampa Convention Center in the Central Business District.”
The system is designed to operate as a single-track, bi-directional line “with six passing tracks” to allow street car meets.
It also added flexibility needed “to allow up to eight streetcars to operate simultaneously and serve 12 station stops every 6 to 9 minutes in either direction.”
The streetcars have their own separate right-of-way, so they are not competing with automobile traffic.
He said most of the right-of-way, about 70 percent, “is owned by public entities. The remaining 30 percent in private ownership is being donated to the project.”
He aid “The line will operate with hard meets, and the location of the meets depends on the number of streetcars operating at any one time. All of the sidings are directional with spring-run-through switches to control meets. Power for the system will be 600 volts direct current (DC) supplied by an overhead trolley wire.
Each of the stations includes a covered waiting area, and a specially designed high block and bridge mechanism to comply with guidelines established by the Americans with Disabilities Act.Each station will be lighted and have security cameras.
Eight replica double-truck Birney streetcars, already completed, are capable of handling up to 84 passengers.
“These will be the first streetcars with four wheelchair positions, door sensing edging, a voice attenuation digital display system, interior bicycle racks, insulation and air conditioning, and an inverter to convert DC power to alternating current to run the air conditioning system,” he said.
Each car four 48-inch doors and a 40-inch clear opening to accommodate wheelchairs.
Why can't we do this in the outer Boroughs, like in Brooklyn?
I agree. Brooklyn, and every other city.
I hope that the right of way is wide enough to be double tracked in the future. Hopefully it will be such a success that it will need double tracking.
Congrats to PATH on their 40th year in service. They have come a long way since the retirement of the Hudson Tubes and its "black" cars.
However, according to the new issue of PATHways, PATH plans to retire all 340 cars currently operating in favor of something more...advanced??? As they state:
"To provide a more comfortable ride to the passengers".
How? Does this mean brighter lights? Faster speeds? Does this mean providing cross seating once again. A longer, wider car? I doubt all of this. If advanced means digital signs and/or automated announcing, please, forget it and spend the $1.5 billion elsewhere. The current fleet is fine. Try expansion; everyone else is doing it.
joe c.
Amen, brother!
--Brian
The current fleet is fine.
The current fleet unfortunately isn't fine. There are a number of problems. Probably the most serious is corrosion in the PA-1 through PA-3 cars, which are not stainless steel. And I've seen a number of rot spots on the PA-4's as well. Other less major problems are leaks in the window gaskets (from the retrofit of the emergency pop-out windows), erratic heating/cooling, etc.
A PATH employee friend of mine states that the PA-3 Hawker-Siddely cars are problematic and would be the first to go.
Bill "Newkirk"
The current PATH fleet needs updating in terms of ADA compliance, which includes PA systems, visual aids, lighting and wheelchair accommodations. Some of the cars have the same problems the LIRR Budd M-1's have. Fleet expansion is good, but there is rolling stock which will have to be retired.
Today, spotted at Porter Sq., was Brooklynite girl Lisa Housman who was performing to a "foreign" crowd -- yes they would consider us Bostonians foreign, wouldn't they? She was giving out free demo CD's of presumably her and her husband "Dave Falk". I listened to the demo CD. I thought that her husband's music was crap (but that might just be jealousy factor at work -- she was too good for him), and her music on that CD wasn't much better -- she sounded a lot better live. The music has particular subway relevance because it was called "Going Over Brooklyn" and the lyrics waffled about meeting some person in a subway car. Exactly what QtrainDash7 needs, right?
Lisa Housman is at http://www.lisahousman.com/ where presumably she will have the same songs in MP3. I don't have time to check out her website, so don't complain if it's not what you want.
AEM7
From Pittsburgh: a short plug for nycsubway.org
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20021113sam1113p1.asp
The plug is nice but the columnist really should have been pointing people to the MTA website. Some could get the errneous impression that nycsubway.org is a MTA site. That is something Dave doesn't need.
And reporters get it right HOW often? After all, the A train goes to "Kennedy Eahpawt WAH WAH WAH WAH wawaWAH WAH." If MTA wants to give Dave tsuris over that, I'd offer that if the reporter was able to figure out the internet address of the MTA (www.mta.com? www.subway.com? nycsubway.gov? I give up) maybe she would have gone there. Sorry, but not many are capable of figuring out "www.mta.nyc.ny.us" ... that's JUST not intuitive, especially to the clueless media. Maybe MTA might want to register a more logical internet address for the non-savvy? :)
Their address is:
mta.info
Doesn't get any easier than that.
-Larry
Maybe MTA might want to register a more logical internet address for the non-savvy?
If you type in:
www.subway.com, you can see what sandwiches Jarred eats.
It you type in:
www.subway.com.ru, you wind up at my site.
But if I want a web site for MTA info, I go to:
www.mta.info
Don't like www.mta.nyc.ny.us?
Then try one of these instead:
www.mta.info
www.nyct.org
www.lirr.org
www.mnr.org
www.libus.org
www.mtahq.org
That should please both the pragmatists (who want short, easy-to-remember URLs) and the purists (who want structured URLs -- although the MTA isn't a city agency, so the top URL isn't structured quite right).
Never a problem for me, but do you REALLY think a reporter from another city would have figured that out? They should let Dave keep his .org, and register everything with "subway" in it to point to the proper domain. It ain't expensive and sure would have caused the clueless to end up at the right place. But if Unca Dave's place shows up higher in a Lycos search (still the most popular search engine because most reporters are on AOL) than the MTA, I don't think that's Dave's fault. :)
The word subway is not specific to the MTA so why should they be allowed to have exclusive rights to it?
And what about the Subway fast food chain? I am sure they would have something to say about it.
You are starting to sound like McDonald's in their quest to copyright anything that has the "Mc" in the name.
And what about the Subway fast food chain? I am sure they would have something to say about it.
Exactly, subway is a common word, not a brand name (except for "Subway" itself, where it is a brand name for it's restaurants). There is nothing stopping them from using that word as their brand, or using uncopyrighted subway maps of the New York Subway as their wallpaper.
As for the "Mc" in McDonalds, I find that outrageous that they are trying to do that.
Huh? I was MERELY suggesting that all that ".state.ny.us" nonsense is something a clueless reporter would NEVER figure out if they couldn't run a search engine. Same clods that would NEVER figure out the Dewey Decimal point system or EVER set foot between the lions downtown in the "research branch." Sorry, back in my day the life of a "urinalist" was *BORING* and involved traipsing out to county offices, filing requests for documents and waiting for a librarian to bring you a cardboard box hours later.
Today, if it ain't on their damned rolodex, it never happened. And if it ain't on their editor's internal homepage, ain't worth covering. And while "subway" shops might con people into believing they're healthier and a "Blimpie base" (health provided by portion control) I doubt they'd get confused with them copyrighted red bullets. :)
Seriously though, why doesn't MTA just grab "nycsubway.com" from the cyberterrorist who has already STOLEN the freaking domain? Here ... check THIS out ...
http://www.nycsubway.com/
SHOWS you the STUPIDITY of our anointed morons ... AND the $hitheads they appoint to RUN it ... Paturkey for thanksgiving? See why I have DISGUST for the media and adminiswigs and docudroids? Someone STOLE it! I just *LOVE* it ...
You know how porn sites LOVE to take advantage of people typing in the wrong URL to hijack people to "sexy lolitas wearing rubber" and such ... I just mentioned this in another thread as but one example fo the MORONS that politicians appoint to run things ... but this one's a corker ... imagine YOUR CHILDREN searching for info on NYC subways, and typing in "www.nysubway.com" to get train info?
Seriously though, why doesn't MTA just grab "nycsubway.com" from the cyberterrorist who has already STOLEN the freaking domain? Here ... check THIS out ...
http://www.nycsubway.com/
SHOWS you the STUPIDITY of our anointed morons ... AND the $hitheads they appoint to RUN it ... Paturkey for thanksgiving? See why I have DISGUST for the media and adminiswigs and docudroids? Someone STOLE it! I just *LOVE* it ... MTA, going straight to hell. :)
I don't get it. What is the problem, Selly?!
(Seriously though, why doesn't MTA just grab "nycsubway.com" from the cyberterrorist who has already STOLEN the freaking domain? Here ... check THIS out ...http://www.nycsubway.com)
It's not the MTA's site that's being cyberterroized, it's Dave's site! The one we're on!
Thanks to Phil for pointing it out. I agree with Allan, this link should have been to the MTA official site.
nycsubway.org has a lot more better stuff than the MTA official site...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
No one here will disagree with you but sending people here based on the article would have put everything out of context.
Perhaps. But since this wasn't Dave Pirmann's doing, and because he has a disclaimer on the site's greeting page, he doesn't have much to worry about.
I'm not worried. I don't mind the attention. Besides it wasn't like a slashdotting. :)
Heh. See my own post about mta stupidity ... porn sites LOVE to absorb mistaken manual URL entries, and www.nycsubway.com is PARKED. Whoops. Dumbasses ... but then again, I QUIT the Paturkey farm after trying to deal with the morons that let *THIS* happen ...
MTA OFFICIAL SITE ... NEW PATURKEY PICTURES! CLICK HERE:
http://www.nycsubway.com/
Advertising and cookeis delivered on EVERY hit! Maybe the webmeister might sell some Metrocard ... DANG! Wish I had registered that domain first, SCREW 25/55! I'd be ****RICH****!!!! Put them sales in ***MY*** bank account ... DANG!
Phucking MORONS ... PATURKEY appointees ... MORONS ...
The NYC subway is the worst subway in the world - except for every other one!
Congratulations to Dave Pirmann - another feather in the cap...
On a somewhat related note, I finally rode the "subway" down here. It's nice (they have classical music playing in the stations!), but extremely useless.
On a somewhat related note, I finally rode the "subway" down here. It's nice (they have classical music playing in the stations!), but extremely useless.
What city?
Pittsburgh?
Yeah, pittsburgh.
Cool...but can the servers handle all of that possible people visting!? Poor David! :-(
A while back there was a thread regarding the building of a temporary PATH station on the site of the old one at the WTC site. I had commented that I thought that the station was going to be much more permanent.
Well, this article in today's Daily News supports my theory:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/35113p-33189c.html
I agree; it does support your theory.
So be it. The important thing is to open it ASAP; remodelling it later to give it more amenities would be nice too.
One thing it will likely do better than the old WTC station; its ADA features will not be limited to one metal wheelchair ramp mounted on the stairs.
I think it finally dawned on the PA that spending $1.5 billion just to create a permanent station 200 yards further east wasn't a good use of money, even if it wasn't their money.
Is the job expreience requirment for the next T/O exam (on the MTA website)going to be different from the last test, so as less work experience is required? If not, do they look at volunteer work as job experience(I've been volunteering for my sister's PTA for the past four years)? Thanks for any information in advance,
B63Mike
And that is a full time job?
Last test was five years FULL TIME PAID work.
So no volanteer work does not count. I don't see them changing it to less then that. More yes, less no.
Aspen residents rejected a ballot issue which would have financed a short streetcar line in this Colorado winter resort. They had the cars, donated from European cities and built in the early 20th century. Now they're looking to see who will give the cars a good home. Bummer.
Guess they forgot about Denver's light rail being a smashing success.
Although this is a shame - especially as they had the cars ready and waiting - Aspen is very small, and it is perfectly possible to walk everywhere downtown (well, in the summer, anyway!).
Yeah, a streetcar line in Aspen probably would have been nothing more than a tourist attraction, if that.
It might have been of some use during the winter. I guess that the people in Aspen have no sense of pleasure except to ski.
#3 West End Jeff
Judging from my visit during the summer, they must be ptetty keen on shopping too!
Maybe the residents of Aspen have deep pocket and/or have huge credit card bills. However, they don't seem to care about spending money on a trolley system, but they'll spend the money on anything else.
#3 West End Jeff
Seems like you and Qtraindash7 should get together.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your suggestion seems interesting. As a matter of fact I've seen Qtraindash7 on 2 railfanning trips with some of the other people on SubTalk.
#3 West End Jeff
A street car line in aspen is not needed.
Was in Aspen last summer you can practically walk form one side of the city to another.
The area which could use the street mass transit would not have bennifitted from the line at all
Good thing it failed. Let the money be spent where it is really needed
You're probably right.
That really is too bad, Aspen is a good deal bigger than most people seem to give it credit for, much of it's size gets lost in to the edges of the mountains to the east west and south, the Chalets and Mini Ski-Mansions go off into the hills for miles around. But the people who own those things don't need nor want public transportation, they have their SUVs (and in one case I saw, a Snow Cat, like you'd use for grooming snow, cept this one had like a suburban body) for use in the snow. Whats really needed isn't a downtown streetcar, but rather a light rail and or monorail to get all the Yahoos that want to go to Aspen just to say they've been there in and out quickly with minimal traffic.
I was there three years ago now, summer of 1999, and we sat for 2 or so hours headed into town from the north, up by our campsite south of Carbondale, then you need to hunt around for a parking spot, another hour wasted, and all for less than 2 hours of shopping!
It would be nice if they could build a light rail line out to around, possibly futher than, the airport. Make it a park and ride, you pay for parking and you enter the pay control area, charge for like $5 = 1 car = 4 people, and then 1.00 per person in that car after that. At the same time, raise parking meter rates in downtown to a rate that the Light Rail becomes a much more economical alternative no matter what the time cost may be. To keep the locals quiet, make all the parking meters 'Smart,' able to accept prepayed cards good for X number of hours per month, and while every ounce of me says to shake every penny that Aspen can get out of them, if they feel that a trip to town for a gallon of milk will cost them (or their maid) 3 bucks not including the milk, they'll sink this project before it even gets to a ballot referendum.
On this next part I'm a little hazy, but does the Bus into Maroon Bells charge? I know I rode it, couldn't tell you the equipment, I think that the fall after I got back from that trip I discovered NYCsubway.org, busses are a very recent minor facination. But, if the busses charge, offer a free transfer somehow between the LRT and the National Park Service's busses.
Even better, and again, I can't remember if the busses were diesel or CNG, Colorado doesn't seem to be the kinda place that would jump to spend that much on CNG, yet Aspen is so yuppified that I wouldn't be surprised if the sniffed the tailpipes just to make sure it's still clean. If they are diesel, then there might be considerable merit to running the LRT up into Maroom Belles somehow. I don't remember the grade as that bad, although it did cross some Avalanche chutes and jumps and stuff, which would pretty much kill the catenary come winter, but it's only 8 miles I think.
It would seem to me that everybody wins, the locals get rid of the tourist's cars, the tourists still get to say they went to Aspen, and can do it with far less hassle, Aspen still gets all the Tax revinue that it can grab from the tourists, it just has to pay for the LRT and busses, and it too gets away from that traffic mess.
BTW, Maroon Bells is the most beautiful place in all the rockies. If ever you get out by Glenwood Springs, definitely head down there, skip Aspen, just find a place to ditch the car for a couple hours, and ride the bus up to the old parking lot. From there it's like 2 miles at most to actually really see the bells up close, they sit behind a frigid melt lake, and often are seen reflected in it on postcards and so on. It really is breath taking, they are just huge, jagged pieces of rock stuck at the end of a valley, amazing, still covered in some snow, more awe-inpiring than any skyscaper.
its like vail colorado,... i drive thru there from time to time ...
.......a bunch of stuck-up jakass elite types ....
nymby syndrome or some other kind of sickness ...
I want to build a case for a redbird rollsign and want to paint it the redbird color. Can anyone tell me what 'color' I would use. Krylon Burgundy or Krylon Cherry at http://www.krylon.com/paint/ps_color_card.asp or american beauty red at http://www.krylon.com/paint/ps_color_card_farm.asp or something else?
Banner red looks more like it. those other two you mentioned are too dark!
Thank you sir!
Jrr4: based on my experience of getting a match for Branford's R-17 Redbird (#6688), you should look to Sherman Williams for a color called 'Tile Red'. It was the closest match we were able to get in an oil-based paint.
Good Luck!
Daily News Story
Times Newsweekly (formerly the Ridgewood Times) Story
"Ridgewood has very little in common with Bushwick or the rest of Brooklyn. Ridgewood has always been Queens-oriented," said Paul Kerzner, president of the property owners and civic association.
I would certainly argue with that. Ridgewood (spanning the B-Q border) was always more Brooklyn-oriented than most Queens community, based on both settlement and transportation history.
The current political argument attaching it to Queens has a great deal of validity, but let's not rewrite history.
Not to mention baseball wise. In the late 40's and 50's the area was strong Brooklyn Dodgers territory. While other Queens regions were more Yankee orientated, not so Ridgewood or either Maspeth, for that matter. The people who lived here were very much attached to Brooklyn in just about everything. Of course, things might have changed in the past 48 years.
>>>...things might have changed in the past 48 years. <<<
Surely you jest. MIGHT have changed. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, they tell me all the time you can't stop progress, that it is part of the march of time. I only hope that the progress that has taken place is positive. New York City deserves the very best since it is our greatest metropolis.
Sorry, Fred, but despite that we were Dodger Fans (I'm talking from the 1950's here) and we took the Myrtle Ave. El to "Downtown" (Brooklyn) and we had Brooklyn Post Office addresses, those of us on the Queens side of the border always considered us as "Queensites" and not "Brooklynites"
Bob
Your point is well taken because you know more of that than I do since I lived in Long Island City. However, are you sure we were called Queenites? I always thought we were called Queensians. No kidding. Which term is right?
Should the Council lines be redrawn, I wonder whether Ridgewood residents would see their car insurance rates rise once more. Or do insurers go solely by Zip Code?
What a cute little neighborhood pissing contest...
It's not so cute. Ridgewood & Bushwick do not belong together. It would probably create the most racially divisive district in the state.
"Can't we all just get along?"
Um, nope. I have relatives in Ridgewood. They're very white, very old & very conservative.
So, I guess it would be a crime to put them in the same city council district with a bunch of democratic, non-white, younger people? If you are going to feed us a load of bullshit, you can do better than that.
A City Councilman/woman's job is to serve their district, concerns of Bushwick are not that far off from the concerns of the rest of the city. This is nothing but a neighborhood pissing contest, as Ron said. There is no validity or logic in opposing something so frivolous. Frankly, I wouldnt give a rats ass whether my councilman was from another borough. Your neighborhood concerns don't stop at the borough line. I don't know a single council district that doesn't encompass diverse areas. Councilmen make the decisions that will beneift their district the most. They shouldn't and probably won't favor one end of their district over another based solely on where it is located. If your relatives don't like it, there is something called a vote. I suggest they use it.
Holy Mary. mother of God, I actually agree with this guy on the subject. Quick, take my temperature. It's about time we finally put this racial crap to bed once and for all. Politicos represent people, at least they should, and not racial groups. If they do they should be looking for another line of work.
So, I guess it would be a crime to put them in the same city council district with a bunch of democratic, non-white, younger people? If you are going to feed us a load of bullshit, you can do better than that.
A City Councilman/woman's job is to serve their district, concerns of Bushwick are not that far off from the concerns of the rest of the city. This is nothing but a neighborhood pissing contest, as Ron said. There is no validity or logic in opposing something so frivolous.
Focusing solely on race may result in missing the real point. While the differences between the neighborhoods are not huge, I get the impression that Ridgewood is the more affluent of the two by a non-insignificant margin. Ridgewood seems to be mainly middle class and working class, while Bushwick has a much higher percentage of welfare-dependent residents and working poor. Of course there is overlap, but these distinctions are real.
What all this means from a political standpoint is that the typical Ridgewood resident makes lower taxes a priority, while the typical Bushwick resident is more concerned about getting more government services. To touch on a theme that's been running through my mind for a while, we could stereotype a little - but only a little - and say that Ridgewood residents tend to be net revenue producers, while their Bushwick counterparts are net revenue consumers. It is this distinction, more than race or gender, that tends to split groups apart these days, and makes it unwise to have one Council member represent both districts. Ridgewood and Bushwick have too little in common politically or economically.
I just don't agree with you on your economic theory.
A Blue-collar neighborhood has an extremely similar political agenda as a low-income neighborhood. And most Republicans in city government tend to be more tax-and-spend than their suburban and rural counterparts. There really isn't a big difference between an Urban Republican and an Urban Democrat. Ridgewood isn't suburban-like and conservative in terms of income. It is your average, middle class, blue collar urban neighborhood. If Ridgewood was the Upper East Side, and it was stuck in the same district as Bushwick, then I would have to disagree with it. But in reality, Ridgewood is very similar to Bushwick, just more prosperous and less impoverished.
The whole point is: I grew up in Rigdewood, Queens. I consider myself as being "brought up in Queens" I would not like it if they now decided that it was Brooklyn (we had enough of those problems with being in the Brooklyn Post Office zone until the 1970's!). Ridgewood, Queens is my "Hometown" and I would not want it to be changed for any reason. I'm sure everyone here also has a "Hometown" that they are similarly attached to.
But determining who represents you in the city council doesn't change your community at all. They aren't deciding that it is part of Brooklyn, they are merely putting Ridgewood in a district that is predominantly Brooklyn. How is it that much different from when you have a congressman or assemblyman that represents multiple counties?
Ridgewood/Glendale/ Middle Village/ Maspeth has always been the one area that has always been a little - in the past a lot - more conservative than it's neighbors. Take a piece here, a piece there, and their political philosophy will just be gerrymandered out of existence (which I feel this is just the beginning of).
political philosophy lies in the voters minds, not in who represents them. Just because a democrat represents your community doesn't mean that the area's people have lost their conservative values.
>>> political philosophy lies in the voters minds, not in who represents them. Just because a democrat represents your community doesn't mean that the area's people have lost their conservative values. <<<
No, just their ability to have their conservative values expressed.
Tom
I agree with that completely. Ridgewood is much more like Glendale and Maspeth than like Bushwick.
A Blue-collar neighborhood has an extremely similar political agenda as a low-income neighborhood. And most Republicans in city government tend to be more tax-and-spend than their suburban and rural counterparts. There really isn't a big difference between an Urban Republican and an Urban Democrat. Ridgewood isn't suburban-like and conservative in terms of income. It is your average, middle class, blue collar urban neighborhood. If Ridgewood was the Upper East Side, and it was stuck in the same district as Bushwick, then I would have to disagree with it. But in reality, Ridgewood is very similar to Bushwick, just more prosperous and less impoverished.
A working-class 'hood like Ridgewood has much more in common with an affluent place like the Upper East Side than it does with a poor area like Bushwick even though its average income may be much closer to the Bushwick level. As I noted, the difference is that Ridgewood (and UES) residents generally pay more in taxes than they consume in city services, while in Bushwick precisely the opposite is true. That makes all the difference.
Lot of truth here. If this is done, I feel it would be Bushwick which would suffer. Ridgewood residents vote on a regular basis. Bushwick is largely minority, and they simply don't turn out to vote at the same rate. That means the person elected to represent them will be more indebted to the conservative nature of Ridgewood residents.
You guys out there know a hell of a lot more about this subject than I do but I have to admit I am fascinated by the topic. My question is doesn't New York City have a Congressman that represents parts of two boroughs? I think Vito Fosella represents part of two boroughs, isn;t that correct? So to me it doesn;t seem that unusual, unless the parts of two boroughs he represents are very different. Are they?
The city concil and congress and stae senate districts are set in a way to get a member of a particular group or political party elected.
They argue over redistricting with every census
they should draw lines in geographic sand. It is funny that people of diverse backgrounds are good enough to live close by but not good enough to be represented by the same elected official
You guys out there know a hell of a lot more about this subject than I do but I have to admit I am fascinated by the topic. My question is doesn't New York City have a Congressman that represents parts of two boroughs? I think Vito Fosella represents part of two boroughs, isn;t that correct? So to me it doesn;t seem that unusual, unless the parts of two boroughs he represents are very different. Are they?
Vito Fosella's district encompasses Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn. These areas are fairly close in demographic and economic terms, however, nowhere near as different as Ridgewood and Bushwick.
In Germantown, there is an enclave of people who are mostly white, middle class, living in old, old Victorian houses in an historic district amid a larger, lower-middle class black population. Some of them (the busybodies who always claim to speak for everyone) feel the black City Councilwoman is too corrupt and too racist to do anything except ignore them.
Every time a proposal comes up which benefits local school children, local black residents, local businesses, these NIMBYs fight tooth and nail to stop it, regardless of what it is.
The result: On at least two occasions, the NIMBYs lost an opportunity to revive a local community garden they wanted and take care of a vacant lot because they absolutely could not compromise on anything. Their councilwoman was elected with very strong majorities and she is not going away anytime soon. Yet every opportunity to "play ball" and get something in return is squandered, and done in a manner so public and ugly that it kills any spirit of cooperation. This is one thing I find very embarassing about my neighbors...(None of them have kids anymore)...
Well, Philadelphia's City Council is not known for its productivity or its effective-ness. Over 12 City Councilmen have been led out in handcuffs over the past 25 years, I believe. Not only does the city council need cleaned up, but citizens also need to get their heads out of their asses and keep their eyes on the ball, and realize that petty differences don't get you anywhere and don't solve problems. A typical problem everywhere.
Yes! You are correct, sir.
Hey, I didn't say I agreed with Ridgewood's complaints. I'm only acknowledging them.
Hopefully they're Republican as well. Ooooooops, I went political again. Watch out for the though polizia.
Ooooooops, I went political again. Watch out for the thought polizia.
Fred, can you believe this is the first political discussion that I have been involved with (much less started!) on Subtalk (and only because it deals with my "hometown") since I first started posting here in 1997 - you can check the archives!
Why would I want to check any archives when I know you to be a straight shooter? I take your word for that. Unfortunately I have become a political junkie and as soon as someone brings it up I jump in. Sometimes I initiate them myself. I think you are better off at this that I am. Take care.
Fred, can you believe this is the first political discussion that I have been involved with (much less started!) on Subtalk (and only because it deals with my "hometown") since I first started posting here in 1997 - you can check the archives!
LOL! Yeah, I usually try to stay away from the political threads also, but with Ridgewood involved, I couldn't resist.
Although that county thread you started kind of mushroomed pretty large too, I think it's still going strong!
It's not so cute. Ridgewood & Bushwick do not belong together. It would probably create the most racially divisive district in the state.
Who cares what the demographic makeup of a city council district is? Are the issues for white Ridgewood that far off from the issues of their neighbor, black Bushwick? Give me a break. It's not like you are forcing people to live in the same house with one another. This isn't going to be the end of the world, and is totally exaggerated in its impact on the city.
Ridgewood is not "White" any more and hasn't been for almost two decades. North of the El, perhaps yes. But south of the El to the Brooklyn/Queens border, I'll guess 40% white, 40% hispanic, 20% other.
But it is a genuine lower-middle class working neighborhood.
My neighborhood has a very similar makeup. Its about 40% white (irish), 40% South American, and 20% other. Its a very pleasant place, and everyone seems to get along great with one another. Racial tensions are not apparent.
Ridgewood is my former hometown; it is not the same Ridgewood that I grew up in, and certainly not the same one that my grandmother settled in, however it is still a very stable, pleasant place to live. It does not compare to Bushwick at all. However, most of Ridgewood is far from being all white. It is a working class neighborhood with many different groups. Currently it is about as much Hispanic as it is White. But it is mainly a working class neighborhood. There is also a high influx currently of Eastern Europeans. Even so, it is far from being an all white neighborhood.
The aspect that seperates it more from Bushwick, is not a racial issue, it is that Bushwick is more run-down. You do not see all the abandoned buildings or vacant lots where buildings "used to be" in Ridgewood, like you see in Bushwick. If you are riding the M train you can almost tell when you have crossed into Bushwick from Ridgewood by how the condition of the buildings abruptly changes.
Chris, I'm afraid I can't buy one. Racial divides can be alleviated if people will look at themselves as people and not racial groups.
Amen to that.
Booshwa!! It's extremely important, even cataclysmic!! It's only people like you, who never add the extra four digits to zip codes because you can't count that high who believe this.
And your mother wears Army boots.
Booshwa???
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I take a lot of flak and giggles from my friends and my wife BECAUSE IT IS PATRIOTIC TO USE ALL NINE DIGITS OF OUR ZIP CODE (and also it helps the post office deliver mail faster and more accurately).
my last four are 5224 (and no, I don't live in Ridgewood any more :-)
Perfect assesment, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
What a cute little neighborhood pissing contest...
Do you think it would be cute if they somehow combined (political representation) Bayside with, say, Parkchester, Hunts Point or City Island?
If the councilman represents everyone in the district the best he possibly can, what difference does it make?
Do you realize how petty this entire argument is? It doesn't f*ckin matter what borough you live in. Everyone needs to stop being so territorial, its sickening. Its not a Brooklyn aganst Queens thing, and one borough isn't trying to take a bite out of another. This is merely a council map proposal, to determine who represents who. What borough you live in shouldnt have anything to do with it, as long as the neighborhoods are somewhat contiguous, and are reasonably similar in concerns and problems, thats all that should matter.
Its not a Brooklyn aganst Queens thing, and one borough isn't trying to take a bite out of another. This is merely a council map proposal, to determine who represents who. What borough you live in shouldnt have anything to do with it, as long as the neighborhoods are somewhat contiguous, and are reasonably similar in concerns and problems, thats all that should matter.
Chris, in the grand scheme of things , of course you are correct, it is sort of petty, but I'm still proud to call Ridgewoood, Queens my hometown. Mostly, I consider myself an American first then a New Yorker.
P.S. I was actually born in Brooklyn
but I'm still proud to call Ridgewoood, Queens my hometown. Mostly, I consider myself an American first then a New Yorker.
Same here! I have many happy memories from there.
They should do away with the city concil all together. All they are are a bunch of no nothings who are on the take. All they do is pander to the small subgroup who actually vote in the concil elections (seniors in my area). The biggest waist is thier discreshionary monies. The local concilman has secured monies to build a new senior center in marine park although a senior center less thena mile is cloding because of budget issues
In terms of drawing concil lines, there has been a movement for decades not to draw the concil districts based on geography, buy ethnicity.
In district is broken into many illogical parts. This is because they wanted to have a russian concilman, a chinease concilman, a black concilman instead of a concilman who serves the people of his district.
Welcome to the world of American politics. Im proud to call myself a liberal Democrat, but I am disgusted with the amount of special interests and pandering in our politics. But I'd rather have that than have a totally ineffective government where the people had no say.
Nobody's telling you not to vote. If you and your friends do not vote or become active, you will have no say at all - your choice.
My personal opinion....if you don't vote and don't get involved, you have no right to complain.
Absolutely!
>>> They should do away with the city concil all together. All they are are a bunch of no nothings who are on the take. All they do is pander to the small subgroup who actually vote in the concil elections <<<
How shocking. Politicians who carry out the will of those who elected them rather than those who contribute the most to their political campaigns. We certainly do not want a trend like that spreading and endangering our American political system. :-)
Tom
If you already noticed, my handle says DaRIDGEWOODBusBuff. Here's what I have to say:
As a person who's been living near the Bushwick/Ridgewood borderline for more than years of his life, I would have to say Ridgewood should stay the way it currently is. Here's something interesting, I was really born in Bushwick, Brooklyn, so that doesn't make me a Queens person.
Now here's the thing with Ridgewood Residents, they seem to know a lot about more about traveling Brooklyn, than Queens. Most Ridgewood Residents can care less what happens in areas like Flushing, College Point, or any other Northern Queens area. However, I bet all of them would know a lot about Downtown Brooklyn.
The thing that brings Bushwick and Ridgewood close together is the Myrtle/Wyckoff Av. (M),(L) train stations, which is also an area that has 6 bus routes. Ridgewood's most important transportation to Manhattan is the (M) and (L) lines, which both pass through a good portion of Brooklyn before touching Manhattan.
Ridgewood is a white(italian) and hispanic area. Bushwick is a hispanic & black area. And it's interesting that you can truly see the borderline. Once you cross Wyckoff Av., you can see the difference. Bushwick is polluted, and has a lot of graffiti, Ridgewood is a cleaner, and is being given new paved streets.
What I'm trying to say is this, Ridgewood make look like Queens, but the people seem to know a lot about Brooklyn, and don't care about any of the far off Queens areas.
But overall, Ridgewood IS Queens not Brooklyn. So I hope the people here are smart enough to go against this proposal of making Ridgewood a part of Bushwick. The Myrtle/Wyckoff av. station borderline is unique, and I don't want it to change.
We'll see what happens...
I meant more than 15 years of my life.
There was a post earlier that discussed a photo of an F train made up of R-11's at the lower level of Bergen Street, but I can't seem to find the photo referred to.
Does anyone have a copy they can attach? I'd like to see that photo.
Thanks.
Here it is. Looks like the upper level at Bergen anyway. Pic was dated in 1975, shortly before the R11's were scrapped:
Yeah, that's definitely the upper level.
Peace,
ANDEE
It sure is.
Oh well. My quest for a photo of the lower level continues.
Your quest is over:
From Joe Brennan's site
Here's another one ...
Were the R11's unique in having all the letter IND routes AND all-numbered BMT routes on their roll signs at the same time?
The R10 had no BMT signs (except for the 30 sent there in the late 1950's), and the R16 had merely BMT routes 10 - 16 (except for the 50 on the A and years later on the GG).
Big question. Why is the train going in the wrong difection. It is going Manhaten bounf on the Coney island Side. Lok at the signal about one car lenght behind the first car.
Robert
Please exonerate my mislocating the level at which the R11/34
is shown in the picture at Bergen Street.
>>>"It is going Manhattan bound on the Coney Island Side. Look at the signal about one car lenght behind the first car."<<<
Just speculating since the running lights are on in the picture,
the train may be doing a southbound move from the northbund
platform to the crossover south of Bergen. Would have been
operational at time of this photo. Used for short turns of "GG"
during GOs.
My other inquiry to Branford Members, look closely at the person
in the operating cab, is it our "TradeMeister" or Not?
;-) Sparky
O.K., I blew it, Bergen Street [IND] was never titled.
;-) Sparky
I thought that bizarre too. If it was on the lower level, it would make more sense as the train could use a switch south of Bergen St. without interferring with normal F/GG service. But that still looks like the upper level.
It was on the upper level and there is no crossover switch on
the lower level. Excuse the mislead about lower level in
earlier posts, since I spuriously speculated that Bergen
lower was tiled.
;-) Sparky
Excuse the mislead about lower level in
earlier posts, since I spuriously speculated that Bergen
lower was tiled.
I still say I think it was tiled. In the movie Jacob's Ladder, which was supposedly filmed there, you can clearly make out the tiles, with the little standard IND "Bergen"s, and it was clearly tiled.
Yes, the lower level WAS tiled at one time. I remember riding through it many times when it was in service.
One time the train I was on had to stop and pick up stranded passengers (today called "customers") that were let out by the previous train. (The gates to the upper level were locked)
The conductor, kept repeating over the PA, "Do no get out at this station, the station is closed. We are only stopping to pick up passengers!"
A while after regular express service was stopped through the lower level, I was on a train diverted through the lower level, and remembered how strange it looked without the tiles.
-Larry
Larry & Chris,
Thanks for assisting me in preserving my sanity.
Being a Streetcarnaut, I may not have all the facts,
but I try to comprehend reasonable conclusions.
Besides, the time the service was operating as Express,
I wasn't riding much due to work and personal obligations.
Thanks again Guys.
;-) Sparky
One time the train I was on had to stop and pick up stranded passengers (today called "customers") that were let out by the previous train. (The gates to the upper level were locked)
The conductor, kept repeating over the PA, "Do no get out at this station, the station is closed. We are only stopping to pick up passengers!"
I wonder why the passengers were let out there to begin with. It must have been freaky for them to be stuck down there, with no way out - Tunnel walking anyone?
You're right -- back in the 70s when I would railfan on the PM Culver expresses to CI (ACed R-40s at the railfan window were my personal favorites), Bergen lower definitely was tiled, but it never had any ads in the gray concrte wall boxes all IND underground side platform stations came with. That made the station seem barren even with the tiles.
Now I'm convinced that's an R11 on the lower level @ Bergen St. Another clue I missed was the type of incandescent fixtures on the platforms. The lower level has external fixtures which seem to be attached to the ceiling with it's electrical wiring running through exposed pipe, wheras the upper level had it's fixtures recessed into the ceiling's concrete. You can see these external fixtures today by looking down underneath the upper platforms from the side of an F train.
I'm pretty sure that is lowe Bergen also. First of all, it seems to be a fan trip running on the wrong track, so I doubt they would have disrupted service like that for a fantrip. Second, the light observation you mentioned. Next, the condition of the ceiling seems to be that of an unused station. Not that that was atypical in the 70's, It just has that abandoned station look.
Another clue is the missing 'grates' that presently allow you to see to the lower level. They aren't there. The only answer: It IS the lower level!
My last trip thru lower Bergen (1994) revealed that one of the platform edge walls (not sure which) was still tiled.
It also appears from recent pics that the lower platform areas have deteriorated dramatically in the last 8 years.
It was on the upper level and there is no crossover switch on
the lower level.
Yes, there was/is a switch between the two lower express tracks just south of Bergen St:
>>>"It was on the upper level and there is no crossover switch on
the lower level."<<<
<<<"Yes, there was/is a switch between the two lower express tracks just south of Bergen St.">>>
I'll stand corrected again, the track map I referenced showed no
switch on the lower level of Bergen Street. [http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/]
This was not conjecture, I checked a source. Look for Bergen Street Lower Level. Pictures from the sight are on the other tread.
What is the date of your map, since it is color coded by line?
;-) Sparky
Chris,
Disregard, >>>"What is the date of your map, since it is color coded by line?"<<<
I located your source for the drawing. Two different drawings
from different sources that do not agree.
;-) Sparky
I have a cab ride through Bergen Lower that I took back in 1997 or 1998 .... I oughtta run that real fast and see if there was a crossover at that time.
--Mark
Didn't one of the Transit Museum Coney Island trips go through the lower level at Bergen last year or late 2000?
No, since those tracks are out of service from Bergen to the 4th Ave interlocking and have been, with rare exception, since March 1999.
I have seen the switch on the lower level with my own two eyes when I last went through there 8 years ago.
Chris,
I've come to one definite conclusion from all the treads on the
various posts that >>>"F ~ R11/34 at Bergen Street
Posted by JohnS on Wed Nov 13 10:00:26 2002, in response to Re: Brighton Line Mystery, posted by peppertree5706 on Tue Nov 12 18:37:11 2002.
IMO, that looks like a fan trip at lower Bergen Street, while
it was still tiled. Note the lack of advertising on the walls."<<<
WAS CORRECT FROM THE OUTSET, even though it was a guess.
;-) Sparky
Oops, I missed this whole part of this thread when I posted that photo on the other thread about Bergen Street asking about the wrong railing of the train.
>>Here it is. Looks like the upper level at Bergen anyway.<<
I don't see the flourescent lights in the station. When were they installed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Most Culver line stations from Bergen to Church didn't get flourescent lighting until the 1980's. In fact Church Ave. and Fort Hamilton Parkway were the last incandescent-lit platforms to be upgraded within the system, in 1987.
Bergen and Carroll went flourescent in 1985. Ft.Hamilton and Church were the last two.
wayne
Is it my imagination, or does it appear to anyone else that the doors in the second car are open?
It is NOT your imagination. The doors are open. That whole photo is very strange and puzzling.
IMO, it was a fan trip and they were or going to wrongrail at
Bergen Street to the crossover on the Upper Level and travel
south. On a fan trip anything is possible on the end signs.
>>>"I better jump in the shower, or I'll be late for work."<<<
Chris, you made it to your place of employ without incident.
Have a good day.
;-) Sparky
Maybe not, all fan trips are double ended and he was just posing for the pictures at a photo stop.
Story: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/13/nyregion/13REBU.html
The article notes that PATH has been runing a 12-hour shift, 6-day per week construction schedule.
Yeah, I saw that. I'm glad they reported on it. Interesting stuff.
--Brian
"The article notes that PATH has been runing a 12-hour shift, 6-day per week construction schedule."
Glad to hear that. As I reported at one point, I was there at 7:10 PM and all was quiet.
You didn't say whether you knew when the shift had started that day.
I have no clue when the shift started that day. I got there at 7:10 and all was quiet, and that's all I knew. I asked if anyone knew more, but no one did.
I was lamenting the fact that there was obviously only one shift, but it's far better if it's a 6-day 12 hour shift than if it's a 5-day 8 hour shift.
It could easily have been (and continue to be) a 7 to 7 or 6:30 to 6:30 shift.
The contractor working on my house now shows up at 6AM (which means I have to be up and ready before he gets here...).
Below is an image I took today. On the TV screen in the rail car is a woman doing a weather report.
Where am I, anyway?
I have no clue.
Agreed, I have no clue, but it is a really ugly color combination. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Christopher Lowell would be repulsed. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
An Acela?
Nope.
That looks a lot like the Heathrow Express. Unless you pick a “quiet car” you get a news & weather summary with adverts during the run.
John
And the weather map on the screen looks like the UK!
Congratulations JohnL, you got it!
Well, it's beddy-bye time. I have to get up early to catch the rail to Cambridge (England, of course :-)
Well, I have taken the Heathrow Express a number of times. It’s expensive (compared to a Piccadilly line ticket), but it gets me to Paddington in 15 minutes, and then it’s a quick cab to Notting Hill Gate where I stay. (I’m tired on the way to England, so I get the cab. On the way back, I take the Number 15 bus (to Paddington, that is)!
John
I'd say that the island that the lady is pointing to looks a lot like england, her hand looks like it's covering scotland up around the tiny islands that make up the northern part. But shouldn't base my answer off of that, cause the weather channel does it's overseas forecast every so often, and it could just as easily be that on the screen. If it is england, I can't place the equipment, but then my knowledge of british rail equipment is limited at best and I will defer to other more knowledgeble people for that.
If it's America, maybe one of the Kawasakis that MBTA has? A tv getting news reports seems kinda high end for a commuter coach, but I suppose it's possible, maybe they snuck some money out of the big dig to 'appease' the commuter rail passengers.
You were on the "right track" at first. As JohnL guessed, it's the Heathrow Express (25 BP second class; 45 BP first class for a round-trip ticket). My shot was taken the 2nd class car (very comfy). I peeked in the window of first class, and it had 2x1 seating. I think it's hardly worth the extra BP for a 15-minutes ride.
MBTA's Kawasakis? Uh... no. I ride them often (when I'm not in England :-) and about as close as you come to weather on the MBTA Commuter Rail is when Conductor Jay (seniority #3 out of hundreds!) asks me to do the weather over the PA system on the 4:40 pm train from North Station to Lowell.
Kawasaki was responsible for the MBTA's rolling stock? Model # or pics, pretty please!
I think he's referring to trolley cars on the Green Line. The newest subway cars are on the Red Line, built by Bombardier, and offer functions similar to the R142.
Presumably he's referring to the Kawasaki-built bi-level coaches used on the MBTA commuter rail.
The "Japanese" cars on the Green Line were made by Kinki-Sharyo.
Todd, my wife and I are heading over to London tomorrow evening. I sent you an e-mail to see if there's any chance we might hook up.
Nice pic of the Heathrow Express. I'm afraid I'll be sticking to the Piccadily Line to get into town.
I don't know and the pic makes me dizzy. That trainset stinks...how can I perform proper 'horizontal inspections' during my lunch break?
Trainset needs some Redbird seating. CI Peter
I just can't understand how they ever came up with Smith-9th Street as a termination point for the G train. It makes no sense whatsoever. The fact is that it clogs up the F line as often times an F train from Bergen St. is right behind a G train and has to hold up while the G train is clear at Smith-9th Street and then switched onto the express track to sit at 4th Avenue...of course there might already be a G train there waiting to turn back waiting for an F train Manhattan bound to clear etc. It also deprives G passengers of their transfer at 4th Avenue forcing them to take 3 trains if they want to use that transfer point.
Of all the things being thrown around, it can't be that much more expensive at the very least to clear this bottleneck to run the G train through to Church Avenue which was constructed to be a termination point for this portion of the line.
"The fact is that it clogs up the F line as often times an F train from Bergen St. is right behind a G train and has to hold up while the G train is clear at Smith-9th Street"
As long as the F runs local, that problem would be the same even if the G went to Church. According to the track maps, the G would have to terminate on the local track at Church.
So the main benefit of extending the G (unless you run F expresses, which opens up other cans of worms) seems to be the connection to 4th Ave.
That can of worms will ultimately be visited, when the Bergen tower is finally redone.
And less dwell times at the terminal. If a G is currently waiting on the express track ready to head back towards Smith/9th at 4th Ave, the next G has to wait for it to clear. With the capacity of Church Ave, the trains should be able to leave as soon as it's verified they're empty. And don't discount that 4th Ave connection. Nothing is more maddening than transferring from an M/R at 9th Street, climbing up those mountain of steps, seeing the G train RIGHT THERE, but it leaves before your next Manhattan bound F arrives. GRRRR!
Been there....done that.....amen!
That is maddening. It has happened to me, but usually at 4th I am Manhattan-bound, and would probably transfer to the F anyway. However, it's got to be totally maddening for passengers that use that transfer, and are either Queens-bound, or bound for G line stations in Brooklyn. Sitting there frustrated looking at that G train on the express tracks leaving has to be similar to the "you can look but you can't touch" for those passengers.
Which is why they should extend the G to Church Ave, at least on weekdays, even with the F running local.
According to the track maps, the G would have to terminate on the local track at Church.
But, it would turnaround on a lower level outside of Church, not unlike the present Broad St. terminus.
What I meant is that it would have to sit on the local track at Church while the train was being emptied, forcing any F behind it to wait, just as it now sits on the local track at Smith-9th. That is, this problem of delaying a following F train would not be remedied unless the F ran express.
Get to Smith and Ninth punch express like now, cross over like now and go express to Church. That solves the plugging the F.
OTOH you would need at least one more crew
The F train used to terminate at Church Avenue when I was a kid in New York. I see no reason why the G train can't be routed there as well. I also believe Smith and 9th is a ridiculous terminal point for a train.
I'm no Brooklynite, but from Hoyt-Schermerhorn why not run it through the tunnel to Delancey and Herald Square and generate some traffic for it? Do Bergen, Carroll and Smith need it that much that they couldn't transfer at Boro Hall?
I don't think there's a track connection at Hoyt between the (G) and the (A(C).
:-) Andrew
You're right. They only share a platform (I think; I need to go look). It's a flyover to the east, and you'd have to back onto the F first. A long-term project for the MTA and a weekend project for me. God, I love this board.
The G tracks duck beneath the Manhattan-bound A/C tracks as you leave Hoyt-Schermerhorn on a n/b G train. There is little if any room for switches.
I agree, I just don't understand that neither, I mean Smith-9 is just a poor excuse for a terminal. That station, along with 4 Av and the 4 Av conncetion needs a drastic renovation plus the beyond rusty tracks between 4 Av and just before Carroll needs replacement. This terminal ruins all chances for a Culver express and you're right, it also cheats G riders of the 4 Av transfer. They could attempt a 'interim' express service until the interlockings are rebuilt, see my post on the subject "F Riders". Let me know what you think. Holla back.
I agree, I just don't understand that neither, I mean Smith-9 is just a poor excuse for a terminal. That station, along with 4 Av and the 4 Av conncetion needs a drastic renovation plus the beyond rusty tracks between 4 Av and just before Carroll needs replacement. This terminal ruins all chances for a Culver express and you're right, it also cheats G riders of the 4 Av transfer. They could attempt a 'interim' express service until the interlockings are rebuilt, see my post on the subject "F Riders". Let me know what you think. Holla back.
Well Smith-9th has been the southern terminal for most of the
service life of the "GG" aka (G) sice service was extended from
Nassau Avenue in the late thirties. WHY? That's the million
dollar question. Has to be some plan for it that was never
implemented, that no one has refered to on this board.
Also, when was the free transfer between Fourth Avenue [IND] and
Ninth Street [BMT] established? As built they were independent
and rival operations.
I'll agree it's a pain in the six transfer, moreso from Ninth
Street to Fourth Avenue and then miss your connecting train.
;-) Sparky
PS-Return the (G) to QB, 24/7. If Sea Beach Fred, can bewail about
the BMT #4, I want equal whining space for the IND GG. :-)
PS-Return the (G) to QB, 24/7. If Sea Beach Fred, can bewail about the BMT #4, I want equal whining space for the IND GG. :-)
The difference between your whining and Fred's is that yours is justified and Fred's isn't - not that what Fred wants wouldn't be nice, but what you want is the way things should be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because that's where the switches happen to be.
Why are they there? Ask the IND planners. Perhaps to make connections with the BMT just a little bit more difficult than they could be.
Looking at the maps on this site, the free transfer only came into being between 1948 and 1959, presumably well after the switches were put in place at Smith-9th.
Also, on the 1948 map, the G is there already, and the IND line ends at Church Ave., but it already has express and local stops all the way to Church Ave. That sort of suggests there were locals all the way to Church back then.
Of course the free transfer wasn't in place from the start, but the IND seemingly went out of its way to avoid even the possibility of future convenient interdivisional transfers.
Except for a few years in the late 60's and early 70's, the G/GG has always terminated at Smith-9th and all (scheduled) service on the line has been local.
"Except for a few years in the late 60's and early 70's, the G/GG has always terminated at Smith-9th and all (scheduled) service on the line has been local."
So everyone says, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. It's just odd that the 1948 map lists local and express stops on the IND line to Church Ave. in that case.
"CHURCH AVE to FOREST HILLS" ... check any Arnine sign. :)
Kevin,
The signs were there, but the service wasn't, except in the
seventies, when the locals between Church & Bergen squalled
at their losing their one seat ride to Manhattan.
It was either E or F to Church Avenue thru 1954 from Jamaica.
And prior to Fulton Street opening to Roackaway Ave, it was
the A.
;-) Sparky
Dammit, Sparky! I had them GOING! DANG, I'm pulling your SHOE FUSE! Now go sit on da bench. Ah shadduppa you face. :)
Now I know I can get in on this. Since the GG and F trains were the only ones to go outdoors of all the IND lines when I lived in New York, I can tell you without equivication what the routes were.
GG----Forest Hills at 71st to Smith and 9th Stree.
F-----179th Street Jamaica to Church Avenue.
That is how it was from 1947-1954.
And there is a tower for the Disptacher (or Asst. Dispatcher) so he doesn't have to stand out in the rain.
But it is sure a hell of a climb for the switchman (I think they use one during rush hour?) on those stairs.
I was wondering which station in Queens was the first to open. I had assumed it was Vernon-Jackson on the Queensboro IRT, but a perusal of the Openning Dates Timeline on this site showed that this station openned in June of 1915. The BMT Myrtle El was open from Wyckoff to Metropolitan Ave by February of 1915. So those stations (Seneca, Forrest, Fresh Pond and Metropolitan) would be first. Vernon-Jackson would still be the first subway (meaning underground) station though. Or did anything else operate in Queens before that?
:-) Andrew
I think the first station in Queens was the original Cypress Hills station on the BMT Broadway line. That station predated the Dual Contracts and was the eastern terminal of the line before the Dual Contracts extended the line to 168th Street in Jamaica.
Isn't the Cypress Hills station in Brooklyn?
:-) Andrew
The first Cypress Hills ststion was located on Crescent St, about five blocks from the Queens line.
Probably true - at least if you want to say "adjacent to Queens." Crescent Street is right near the Brooklyn-Queens border, and the Broadway El was extended along Fulton Street to Crescent Street in 1893. This stretch is today the oldest unrebuilt section of rapid transit trackage in New York City.
Also, the old Fulton Street el along Liberty Avenue originally terminated at "City Line" (Grant Ave) - right on the Brooklyn Queens border as well. This line also opened in the mid-1890's but no longer exists, replaced between 1936 and 1956 as we all know by the A train subway along an almost identical route.
See Mark Feinman's excellent article on this very website (click on BMT division) about the history of the BRT elevateds prior to the Dual Contracts.
Cypress Hills is several blocks inside Brooklyn. The next stop Eldert's Lane is at the Brooklyn/Queens line.
Nope, you're correct. The section north of Wykoff was first. The Liberty Ave. el also opened in 1915 (beyond Grant Ave) a few months later. The Jamaica el opened in stages in 1917, and the Astoria/Corona lines opened in 1919.
So before Dual Contracts, Queens had nothing, huh.
:-( Andrew
So before Dual Contracts, Queens had nothing, huh.
Before Dual Contracts Quees *was* nothing (but a farm)
Elias
So before Dual Contracts, Queens had nothing, huh.
Before Dual Contracts Queens *was* nothing (but a farm)
Long Island City was big enough to be a city. Flushing and Jamaica had downtowns too. I don't think it was that much different from the outer parts of Brooklyn that the els were serving.
:-) Andrew
Steinway had built a trolley from Grand Central to Hunter's Point. The route of the #7 Flushing line. That I believe was before the dual contracts.
Except the LIRR, nope. To get to my neighborhood (Woodhaven), you had to use the LIRR to a now-gone surface local station at 87th St. and Atlantic Ave.
But then, come to think of it, part of the old LIRR in Queens is now part of the NYC Subway, namely the Rockaways branches of the (A) (and Rock Park (S).) When was the Rockaway Branch openned? It might actually be one of the oldest sections of today's subway.
:-) Andrew
And it appears from this site that it first openned arround 1870, making it one of the oldest sections of the current NYC Subway.
:-) Andrew
Only 2 years after occupation consolidation, the city began to build a subway that completely ignored its new size.
There was no line to Queens, the line to Brooklyn was merely a token line to the LIRR terminal and there is STILL no line to Staten Island.
I think I read somewhere the LIRR and the BRT reached an agreement in the 1890's that the BRT would concentrate their routes in Brooklyn and the LIRR would get Queens.
The BMT Myrtle El was open from Wyckoff to Metropolitan Ave by February of 1915.
It definitely goes to the northern end of the Myrtle el, the current M line. Even before 1915 when the el was built from Wyckoff north, the line left the el at Wyckoff and continued on the ground to Metropolitan. I think that was in the 1880's. So Seneca (then Covert) Avenue is the first station that was in Queens.
The original 1907 Vernon-Jackson station on the Steinway/Belmont
line probably falls under the trolley category, plus it was never
officially opened for the public.
Although it is plainly a "railroad" now, the Long Island Rail Road
did provide "rapid-transit" style local service in Queens before
the subway/els.
Also, in 1903-1904, the BRT had a ramp at Cypress Hills and trains
of BU cars operated on Jamaica Avenue, under trolley wire, across
the borough line and into Queens.
Was the white/blue "racing stripe" theme ever used on any other class of cars, other than the R10?
Don't believe so.
wayne
My understanding is that the paint scheme was an attempt to replicate the World's Fair color scheme of the 33/36's and was unique to the R10's.
when I was looking fore these pics, I came across this
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3036.jpg
slope married to a 16...
BTW I remember that Juicy Fruit gum commercial depicted by that ad above the storm door.
Today we do some toilet talk.
Or perhaps it could be tails from the can.
This will not be a column about off color or dirty jokes, although after reading
it you may wish for the jokes instead.
As I have mentioned several times in past columns, I have had numerous readers
ask questions about the restroom facilities on the engines and what we do when
we have to use them while en route and moving. While some might be appalled by
such a topic, I find it amusing. It is good to see that some folks are as deeply
demented as I. It is almost refreshing to see that this sort of behavior and
mentality is not lost on railroaders alone.
Fear not though, we are not going to get into descriptions of what is going on
while we use the facilities. Even I am not that sick and disgusting, although
several people I know may disagree with that statement. For descriptive purposes
though, I will use the highly technical terms of #1 and #2 for the two different
waste elimination methods. I believe these to be pretty much universal
descriptions.
The restroom facilities on most locomotives are not exactly the finest of
accommodations. You won't find the trusty "Sanitized for Your
Protection" labels across the seats when the locomotives roll out of the
servicing facilities. Oftentimes, quite the contrary is the case. Many times in
my career I have boarded locomotives that reek of stinking, disgusting toilets
making the cab almost unfit for human occupancy.
On locomotives so equipped, the toilets are usually placed in one of five
locations based upon the manufacturer and cab style. EMD standard cab units
generally have them mounted in the nose. You have to step down into the nose to
access it. As originally designed and built on locomotives with the short low
front nose, a door is mounted directly on the front bulkhead of the cab to
access the nose and toilet inside. One has to open this door and then reach down
leg and foot first to catch the step inside of the nose and then lower one's
self inside. Coming back out was no simple chore either as you have to grab onto
the door frame to pull yourself back up and out into the cab. Not exactly simple
and convenient, but it works.
On EMD units built beginning in latter 1976, the design was modified to a much
more convenient and safer design. A small hallway or corridor of sorts was built
with a step down from the cab. A door is located at the end of this little
corridor and you can enter the toilet standing up and without having to lower
yourself in or pulling yourself out. With this arrangement though, the room
itself is much smaller, not that you need a huge place anyway.
Being that the toilet is mounted in the low nose, you do not have the greatest
amount of headroom, so particularly tall employees might have to crouch a bit.
EMD made gestures to remedy this problem around 1980 by making the mid-portion
of the nose a little bit higher. This added a couple of inches of headroom where
it was needed.
The standard cab SD70's obtained by the Illinois Central, Norfolk Southern and
Conrail have very large restrooms in them as the noses on these units are a bit
longer than many of the previous models. But the height is still an issue.
General Electric standard cab locomotives have the restroom behind the cab with
the access door about in the center of the cab itself. This compartment is far
more cramped than their EMD counterparts, but it is at cab level. There is no
climbing of stairs involved at all. The toilet is located there because of the
snub nose on GE standard cab units and there being no room for the toilet in the
nose as a result.
High nose units like those on Norfolk Southern predecessors Southern Railway and
Norfolk & Western had plenty of headroom in theirs toilets. That high nose
paid off in this situation. Even though you had to step down into the nose, the
door was full height and you stepped right in. The high nose Geeps of the
earlier years of railroading in the diesel generation also allowed for this type
of access, except everything was level between the cab and nose.
When some railroads rebuilt their older Geeps and cut off the high short nose,
they had to make adjustments. The Illinois Central Gulf's massive fleet of
Paducahbuilt GP8 and 10 locomotives had the floor in the nose dropped and a huge
concrete weight added. The toilet was moved over to a corner and you had two
choices, enter from within the cab confines and work around the concrete slab or
go out the front cab door and enter from a door placed on the left side of the
new low nose.
Union Pacific SD40-2 locomotives that were equipped for mid train remote
operation had their short low noses extended to hold this radio gear. A separate
door was added out side the nose to access this equipment. The toilet was moved
over to the right side of the nose with access still accomplished from within
the cab.
Not all locomotives are equipped with toilets. Most small switcher type units
ranging from the NW2 and SW1 to the SW15's and others generally do not come
equipped with them. The MP15DC locomotives MoPac obtained were equipped. Being
that the MP15DC's were frequently used on travelling switch engines (road
switchers) the toilets were required. These particular units are slightly longer
than their SW1500 cousins as they were built on the same frame as the GP15
series units, so there is more room for one. On the MP15DC models it is located
just in front of the cab on the left (Fireman's side) behind the high voltage
cabinet. You have to step outside of the cab to reach it. And needless to say,
it is a bit cramped in there with low clearance for headroom as well.
The super or wide cab units have the toilets placed on either the left or right
side of the nose "downstairs." To exit the cab from the front, you
have to drop down a couple of stairs and go through a corridor or foyer that is
separated from the cab by a door. The toilet is normally just ahead of the wall
separating the cab from the foyer. On the GE units and the SD70 and newer EMD
units, it is on the left side. On the older SD40-2W units it is on the right
side. Again, they are a bit cramped as the ceiling slopes down. If you are tall,
you are slouching. If you are fairly overweight, you are looking for the grease
or shoehorn to get inside.
In any event, no matter where the location, I often refer to the room with the
toilet as "the dungeon." Although this might not be a fair comparison
to dungeons everywhere as they were probably cleaner and more sanitary that what
we have.
It is amazing to see the variations in philosophy on toilet maintenance. Some
railroads put forth a great effort. Others, well when the thing is really
stinking, about full to the top and totally revolting, they believe it is now
toilet dumping, cleaning, recharging and refreshing time. In my observations and
first hand experiences over the years, I believe some roads attempted to go at
least one year in between the basic maintenance. When they get overfull,
sometimes the crews take action to eliminate the problem. More on this subject
in a bit.
Right here on the CN system we have two distinct maintenance policies. In
Canada, they seem to stay right on top of toilets. They are generally cleaner
and usually fresh and charged without the basic overload, as it were. They also
use a solution in them that smells better than what is used in the U.S. On the
U.S. side, it can be a different story. It used to be far worse, but significant
improvements were made thanks to the efforts of the Locomotive Partnership
Council of which yours truly is a member. While not up to the standards of our
Canadian brethren, our toilets are much cleaner than just a few years ago,
although they could stand to improve some more.
Not all can be blamed on poor maintenance though. There are specific items that
are not to be placed into the locomotive toilets. These items would include
bottles, cans, paper towels, sanitary napkins, diapers, cardboard and the like.
However, there are train and engine crews that insist on dropping such items in
there just the same. This can really make things get rather disgusting rather
quickly. These items do not break down and often do not flush either. In the
case on one railroad I worked for, some idiot even tossed in a coupler knuckle.
Fortunately it was far too big to flush down that little opening, so at least it
didn't get plugged up in there. I'm not certain that if it did even the
"RotoRooter" man could have rodded that thing out.
Now while I didn't throw it in there, I once lost my pager in the toilet.
Somehow when I was finishing up, the pager popped off my belt, hit the toilet
and landed directly in the bowl. This particular toilet did not have a flapper
at the bottom that opened and closed when you flushed, just an opening that
everything went through. When the pager hit the bowl, Newton's theory on gravity
was tested and proven. That handy little electronic device shot right down the
bowl and through the opening making the mad dash for the holding tank. Needless
to say, I did not make any efforts to attempt to retrieve it.
I thought about trying to send a page to it though. It was in the vibrate mode
and I wondered if maybe a few pages to get it shaking pretty good would create a
volcano type effect in that holding tank leading to an eruption. Considering
what all goes into those tanks, I figured the entire thing probably dissolved
within moments after landing in whatever was in that holding tank, so I didn't
make an attempt at this scientific experiment.
After the merger of the Southern and N&W into Norfolk Southern, somebody
there came up with the idea for the use of bags for human waste. Now before you
start thinking about the concept of this (truly a strange one to be mulling over
anyway) let me explain it. They installed what was essentially a toilet seat on
a mount. You took a sanitary bag and placed it completely over the seat with the
opening of the bag going through the opening of the seat. You performed your #2
into the bag and deposited all the required paperwork with it. You would then
remove the bag, seal it with a twist tie and deposit this into the waste
receptacle for such bags and replaced the lid. In evaluating this method, in
some ways it was actually more sanitary as you placed your tushy on a clean bag
instead of directly on a toilet seat that may not have been cleaned for months
or even years.
A drawback to this system, aside from the concept of doing it into a Hefty bag
was the fact that the containers used to store the loaded bags were not always
emptied in a timely manner. This could lead to another form of overflow. It also
resulted in crews tossing loaded bags from the windows of the locomotives along
the right of way and into the weeds. What then occurred was the NS weed watchers
were now stepping into these bags of waste and getting their boots and pants
soiled. I have no problem with this as I consider this to be a form of poetic
justice. This is the price you pay for being so devious.
Now for the simpler #1, there was a urinal connected to a small holding tank.
Since September 11th of last year, these devices have been renamed "Bin
Laden's bubbler."
NS has begun to replace this system with flush toilets on their power. All of
their new power is equipped with the flush systems right from the factory. All
of the Conrail locomotives they acquired with their takeover of 58% of that line
were also flush toilet equipped.
In the late 70's and early 80's CN installed incinerator type toilets on some of
their units. These units did just what their name described, incinerated the
waste. If you think rotten grain lying around in the peak of high heat and
humidity during the summer stinks, try catching a whiff of human waste being
burned up at high temperatures. This is downright brutal and inhumane. And guess
where the exhaust from this always seems to wind up? After receiving zillions of
complaints they have gotten away from this madness returning to flush toilets.
Over the years, some railroads have experimented with toilet location. Union
Pacific attempted to relocate the toilet to the rear of the locomotive. It was
thought that if it was well away from the cab, nobody would complain about how
disgusting they were or could become. It was a good theory, but on paper only.
To use this toilet while moving meant you had to step out the rear cab door and
walk down the catwalk on the Engineer's side to the toilet room at the very rear
of the unit. This could be quite the adventure if you were rolling along at 50
or 60 MPH, especially in the rain snow or really cold weather. This experiment
lasted on one locomotive and was never repeated.
When cabooses were being eliminated on all freight trains beginning in the
mid-80's, it was decided to place an entire crew of four or five on the
locomotives. Some railroads decided to stuff everybody into one locomotive cab.
So now you have accommodations for three now being elevated to four of five
people. With all these people came all their grips as well. So now there is
absolutely no room in the cab to move at all. You had to climb over everybody
and their grips to get around.
Burlington Northern hatched an idea. They decided to install luggage racks in
the restroom. The idea was to have the crewmembers jam their grips onto these
small racks and stow them away in there to free up cab space. Needless to say,
This idea went over about as well as that proverbial fart in church. The crews
and the unions balked at such preposterous idea. I mean think about it, would
you stow your carry on in an airplane restroom? Even though they make a better
effort to keep them clean, the entire concept is totally insane.
Some railroads do use this room for storage though. I have seen some railroads
install racks for tools and spare air hoses in the rest room. All of the IC's
SD70's were delivered with the rack to hold fusees (flares) placed in the
restroom. And they also have a little locker with replacement light bulbs and
headlamps in there as well. Pre-1976 built CNW units had the cut out switches
for the Automatic Trains Stop system mounted in there. Other roads had other
electronic devices in there like radio power packs.
There is normally a single or two electric lights normally placed in the
restroom. On occasion they burn out. Aside from leaving the door open there is
virtually no other light source in there unless the unit is equipped with a vent
hatch. Even the open vent offers very little light and this is only in daytime
anyway. So the Conductor or Brakeman's switch lamp is borrowed. If you have
replacement bulbs on board, you can make the effort to change them yourself,
which I have done on numerous occasions. It is either that or risk going on your
shoes.
Toilet placement can be an adventure. In some instances the person or persons
involved in actually installing the toilets may opt for the low road method and
install the toilet where it is convenient for them, never mind the logical
location. In more than one instance, they have placed it directly in front of
the steps so that you actually have to climb over it in order to use it.
We had one locomotive here, the 6136, that had the toilet in the high hurdles
position meaning you had to climb over it as part of the maneuver to get into
the room. They had a light bulb locker installed behind and just above it so
that you had to not only become a track star, you also had to be a contortionist
to get around it in order to use the toilet. A couple of calls to the Locomotive
Hot Line finally got the problem corrected. All they had to do was turn the
entire toilet around sideways and it created a clear and unobstructed path. No
time to do it right the first time, but always the time to make it right the
second.
The things we do to go.
There are various brands and styles of toilets used on locomotives. Some have an
empty bowl while others have the solution of water and chemical in them at all
times. The chemical is actually a biological agent that attacks the waste and
breaks it down. Into what it gets broken into is beyond me and I am not certain
that I want to know, but I'll bet if you dropped this stuff on the Taliban, al
Qaida of Saddam Hussein, they would all surrender immediately. Of course, this
would probably have us accused of using biological warfare but...They are
equipped with either foot pedal flushing device or a lever you pull by hand to
flush. In some cases, it takes numerous pulls to get them to actually flush.
I had mentioned taking charge when the holding tank was over loaded earlier.
When this happens, we as the crews may take control of the situation and dump
the tank enroute, not all of it, but enough to clear out the bowl. In some
situations, the tank was dumped at locations where we have experienced problems
with neighbors who like to camp out along the right of way. Enough toilet tank
dumpings, especially in the summer will quickly chase those intruders and pests
away.
A friend and former Conductor of mine that used to work for the Chicago &
Northwestern told of a great toilet-dumping story. It seems there was a
particular Trainmaster his Conductor was not fond of. (Gee, that's hard to
believe, eh?) Anyway, this Trainmaster calls the train on the radio informing
them he would on the platform at a station at a certain location to give them a
roll by inspection. He also told them what side he would be standing. With that,
the Conductor jumped out of his seat in the caboose to check out the toilet. He
learned it was on the correct side he needed and began to set his devious plan
into motion. He told my buddy to keep a good lookout for the Trainmaster and
when the leading end of the caboose got to him to just yell out,
"NOW!"
Being the good Flagman and railroader my buddy was, he was more than happy to
comply with his Conductor's instructions. As they approached the station where
the Trainmaster was standing, he maintained a diligent lookout. They were only
travelling about 10 MPH owing to a slow order in the area. When the head end of
the caboose reached the Trainmaster, my buddy complied with his Conductor's
instructions and called out "NOW!"
There was a whoosh and suddenly, a strange colored liquid began to be rapidly
discharged from the drainpipe of the cabooses holding tank. It gushed all over
the platform with much it either splashing onto or flowing all over the
Trainmaster's shoes and pant legs. My buddy described this liquid solution as
also having some sort of "lumpy, solid material" in it as well. An
inquiry later into the situation had the Conductor telling an Assistant Super
that apparently he must have "accidentally" kicked the drain valve
while using the toilet. Of course, the release rod for the drain is behind a
cover that has to be opened and the handle itself has to be pulled, but
apparently this Assistant Super was not aware of this. The caper was completed
and covered up in plain view in grand fashion
I love it when a plan falls into place.
Now, to answer a question asked several times by several people, how do we go
when we are moving? Well, you pick your spots. I drink a great deal of water
while at work. This much water makes me have to "step out of the
office" fairly often. This is not a problem when stopped, but when moving,
you need to pick your spots. I will generally make my dash for the door when we
are in an area where there are no road crossings for a good stretch. I don't
want to be away from my post when really, really needed. I also do not leave the
seat while reducing speed for restrictions or when slowing down to stop.
As with sailing, you learn to develop "sea legs" as it were to
maintain your balance while in there so as not to go all over yourself.
Now when I get a locomotive equipped with an alerter, I have to have a
well-timed trip out of the office. The speed upon which the train is rolling is
a major factor in the how often the alerter will sound in between resets. This
means I may have to have the Conductor or Brakeman hit the acknowledger while I
am out or I have to hit it, make my mad dash and return before it begins to send
out its warning tones and prepare to stop the train.
Now technically, we are not supposed to leave the seat while moving. But if we
all stopped every time we had to go, we would take forever to get over the road.
There is sort of an unwritten understanding of this situation.
When it comes to the #2 move also referred to as setting out a "bad order,
creating a new Trainmaster or making a non-revenue move" you have to be
stopped. There is no way around it for the Engineer unless the Conductor is also
an Engineer that is presently set back. In making this move, the toilet often
(almost always) has to be prepared first. It has to be cleaned and wiped down (I
carry Windex in my grip). They also give us those paper seat liners as well.
If the toilet is too foul or disgusting to use at all, we can step outside.
However, this is not a good idea when running over 10 or 15 MPH. I'm sure most
of you are familiar with the old phrase about spitting into the wind.
I know of one Engineer that will never step outside. He will stop his train by a
gas station or other place that has public restrooms, get off and go use their
facilities. His attitude is if they cannot provide him with clean facilities,
their trains will just have to wait.
I always tell new shooter Conductors and Brakemen to never go use the facilities
when we are approaching road crossings. Aside from the safety issue, there is
the collision factor. One Brakeman I worked with told me a story of what
happened to him one trip.
Being that they had a Fireman, he figured he could make a dash for the door
while approaching a road crossing. While down there, he hears the train go into
emergency and the Engineer yell out "Hold On!" Then there was a
collision. When all was said and done, the Brakeman was on the floor next to the
toilet and had proceeded to go all over himself in the process. I wonder if this
would be akin to "putting on his airs."
Finally, the same CNW Conductor friend with the toilet-dumping episode told me
this story. Back in the early 70's most CNW locomotives did not have toilets. He
tells me of one trip down the road when the Engineer informed him that he really
needed to make a #2 move. The Engineer proceeded to lie out some newspapers on
the cab floor. He told my buddy he would probably want to step out during this
event, which he did. He went out the back door and stood on the side catwalk and
held on while they rolled along at some 50-MPH.
When he observed the Engineer come back into view, he stepped back into the cab.
At this point in time the papers on the cab floor had been rolled up into a
ball. He said the Engineer, not watching where he was or what was going on
opened cab the window and tossed everything out into the countryside. Only it
wasn't country, it was a road crossing and a car was stopped waiting for the
train to pass. The rolled up papers landed smack dab on the hood of the stopped
car.
The following day, a directive was posted upon bulletin boards everywhere on the
division prohibiting the throwing of human waste from moving trains, especially
when passing over road crossings at grade.
>From what he had learned, the motorist in this car (a woman) upon
discovering what was in the rolled up papers contacted the railroad and made a
complaint.
Yet another reason I don't pull right up to a crossing and wait. I always stay
back at least one hundred feet or more. You just never know what might hit you.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Here's the site.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/bergenst.html
Thanks, Joe!
Very cool. I still say it had tile at some point in time, many years ago, I remember an R-6/7 express run from Jay to Church years ago, but I can't remember the exact date - might have been 1971, we stopped there, it was Hunter Green border with Lawn Green center, like it used to be, and like Carroll Street is today - but with three tiles in the band instead of two.
wayne
The lower level at Bergen Street did indeed have tile. The tiles were removed shortly after the lower level was abandoned.
David
Anyone know why? I'm sure that the LL could have been used in an emergency or in a GO.
Supposedly the tiling was damaged when the upper level station was renovated, so maybe they decided to strip it all off rather than wait for water damage or something else to push them off. Its easier to maintain a "bald" station than one with tiles.
From the look of the photo from Joe Brnnan's site, there seems to be quite a bit of water collected on the platform down there. There was probably water damage to the tiles, and many may have become loose anyway.
It did have tiles at one time. You can see them in the movie Jacob's ladder which was filmed at the lower Bregen station. They did look the same as Carroll (and upper Bergen) before the rehab.
BTW, why is this F train wrong-railing?
Oops, I missed the other thread that explains this photo, before I posted it here.
That is the question also in my mind.
Note that the first car doors are closed, but the next car is open.
I'd SUSPECT a Railfan Trip.
I mean, since when did the R11s ever run on the (F) anyway!
Elias
Or for that matter have F signs?
>>>"Or for that matter have F signs?"<<<
Without sounding redundant, I posted the following under the
F - R11/34 at Bergen Street tread.
..."When Steve Zabel ran the R-10 trip for the ERA in June of '86,
he brought along a numbered route indicator for BMT on the
motorend in use at the time. The number/letter curtain on the
ends of all R series thru 38 were interchangable prior to GO..."
So the sponsors or attendees could easily exchange the end signs
on the R-11s.
;-) Sparky
That's what I meant. They swapped roller curtains and signed the train as an F.
It's a fantrip from 1975. There's a debate about whether it's the upper or lower level. I'm now convinced it's the lower level.
Again, I agree. Especially since it was a fan trip. I severely doubt they would have disrupted service by allowing that train to wrong rail on the upper level. Just the fact that it is wrong-railing makes me almost sure it's the lower level, and where would a better stop be for a photo run-by be than an abandoned or little used station.
Oh, I got scooped. Those look like the same pictures sent to me a little while ago and have been in my queue to upload to the site. Oh well! :-)
Here's something very strange that happened to me today. I was waiting for the (L) train to Manhattan it around 1:30 P.M., and the R143 comes, so I take it. As I was traveling, I noticed that we passed the Dekalb Av. station without stoping! A first, I thought there was something wrong with that station. Then when we reach Jefferson St., it skips that too! Along with the next 4 stations(Morgan, Montrose, Grand, and Graham). And it finally stops at Lorimer St. , which is where I needed to get off to catch the (G) train. That was a good express ride(LOL).
Anyone want to explain why this happened?
Unannounced battery run?
That's it, but if you haven't been around the board long, be advised that old Brooklynites claim there used to be regular express service on the L. The "local" would wait in the storage track beyound Mytle, then follow the "express" out of the station. The express would run non-stop to Manhattan, with the local making stops behind it. The local would reach 8th Ave before the following express would catch it.
That only worked when they could run BMT Standards on the expresses and MultiSection cars on the locals. The MultiSection cars, with their higher speed and better acceleration, could almost keep up with the expresses which were skipping stops. Making all of the stops after Lorimer, the express trains probably found the locals right on their tails as they approached 8th Ave.
-- Ed Sachs
Does anyone who had the chance to ride the multi-sections know if the R-143s acceleration is close to the acceleration of those units?
--Mark
More likely, it was announced, but the OP wasn't listening (or the speakers weren't working in his car).
Did other passengers in the car seemed surprised that they were missing their stops?
They used to do that quite often when I was a regular user or the L line a few years back. MOst of the time it would follow a long wait at one of the Manhattan Stops, due to delays, or bunching of trains. I usually got on at Union Square. If there is a delay in service for some reason, they may send the first one out to spread the trains out a bit. It was so crowded at Union Square once that the conductor even told people that there would be a train right behind ours. Many times they would only tell the people at Lorimer that it would be skipping everything to Myrtle, so many people got off and had to wait for the L behind us.
I left at around 3, and the R-42 that pulled into Wyckoff made it's next stop Lorimer, and another train making all stops was right behind. (I did barely hear the message and was happy). There must have been delays on the line. Of course, this speedy trip Rockefeller Ctr. to see the newly erected tree to was messed up at 42nd when the F had some sort of door problem, and they kept the doors closed wheile they checked it out, and a B and D passed by, and I couldn't get out to catch them.
Actually, I heard no announcements when I stepped in the train. And I think none of the other Myrtle Av. riders heard it either. I was riding in the 8141-8144(back) portion of the R143.
Simon B. and I spent the day in Philadelphia giving him the chance to see a different American city's rail. (We went there two years ago and the weather was nearly identical-- rainy and cold till about 3:30pm)
We started out on the PATCO from Woodcrest to 8th & Market. Bought a Day Pass there, and then took the 10:34 R6-Norristown to Norristown. Driver told us that the Rt. 100 was all a single fare zone now, contrary to the SEPTA web site, so the Day Pass covered it all. Then, the 100 to Bryn Mawr, stop for coffee and Tasty-Klairs at the Wawa there. Then to 69th St.
From there, the 101-Media to Media. On the way outbound, the operator told us that our Day Passes were only good for a single suburban fare zone and that Media was in the 2nd zone, so we had to pony up $0.50 each. (This concurs with Septa's web site.) On the way inbound from Media, however, the driver told us that now the Day Pass covered all the way to Media as well. So something needs to be done in terms of educating the drivers & fixing the web site on what exactly is covered on the Day Pass.
Back at 69th St. rode inbound on the Market-Frankford El to 13th St. Stopped at the SEPTA Museum and then Reading Market for hoagies. Then returned to 30th St via M-F line and then outbound on some random trolley to Woodland Jct (is that the proper name?). Photo above taken on Woodland Ave near the jct. Then outbound on the #13 to Darby and back on the #11. Dark by the time we reached the portal. Transfered at 30th St. for M-F line to 8th & Market to PATCO.
-Dave
p.s. if there were a photo contest this year, that might be my entry.
Next year?
(It is a great shot. Look at all that color!)
Click here to see some suburban Philly color from this year.
Yeah, the fall provides for some great color for good shots. It's probably my favorite time of year to take train photos.
Tuscan Red
Who'd judge then? It'd be no contest :)
--Mark
Simon just gave a ring (10PM) and gave a glowing account of the Philly systems. Sounds like he had a real good time. He will fill me in more on Sunday.
wayne
Technically the operator on Rt 100 was wrong - the zones have been revised from the previous 4 to the current 2, so the Day Pass should have required a zone fare. The first op on 101 was correct.
In my various experiences with the DayPass, most operators outside of the routes which penetrate the Center City area have next to no familiarity with the pass, and I even had one operator refuse to honor it at first. When I showed him the holder (it was the first vehicle I was using it on, thus the procedure was for the op to issue a transfer and affix the sticker part on it), he waved me past. I figured it was easier to not continue the disagreement and got the transfer on the next leg of my trip.
By the way, I'm glad to hear you (youse?) guys enjoyed our fair city and its environs.
And the 40th Street portal is called just that, or, for short, the portal (even though there's another on 36th Street).
Fall foliage - something I miss here in California. But "Tasty-Klairs at the Wawa"? Whatever is that? Another gourmet secret unique to Philadelphia?
But "Tasty-Klairs at the Wawa"? Whatever is that? Another gourmet secret unique to Philadelphia?
No, you can get them at Wawa stores everywhere. Best served with a side of Maalox :-)
Seriously, they're just another obnoxiously sweet pastry that none of us need.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if he means Tasty-Kakes, which are sort of like those Little Debbie snack things you can get at the grocery store. And Wawa is a local convenience store chain, nearly identical to White Hen Pantry in Chicago. Don't ask me where the silly name came from.
I'm actually pretty shocked that Dave let Simon escape Philly without introducing him to a big fat Philly cheesteak.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Even us folks in Baltimore know about WaWa. The company started as a dairy located in --- Wawa, Pennsylvania. The convenience store chain grew out of the dairy.
The Tasty Baking Company, makers of the TastyKake line also started in Philadelphia. It's product line is sold only within 250 miles of the plant, so it's not known unless you grew up and/or live in the area.
There used to be a Wawa in Cheshire, CT when we lived there.
And the Tasty-Klair is only available within a much smaller radius. Never in North NJ although we do get the fruit pies.
Wawa is an Indian name for a goose. The Wawa has the least expensive gas here in Virginia, usually 7 cents less than Southland's 7-11. Plus their sandwiches are made to order.
Tasty Kakes is a regional brand of baked goods, such as Drakes in the NY area (hard to find here in Virginia).
Actress Pat Carroll did a series of commercials for Tasty Kakes over 30 years ago.
I believe the Native American tongue is the Lenni-Lenape.
wayne
Sorry, only time for one meal and it was big Italian hoagies at Reading Market.
I had a few great rides on the Broad Street Subway. It makes great noises out bound because it is basically going up hill.
In bound there are time signals because of the down grade. The noise was not as great.
Glad you guys had an excellent time.
I think Simon tried Adelman's Deli in Brooklyn (Kings Highway between E 19th and OCean Avenue) for lunch today (Thursday). I expect a full report shortly :)
--Mark
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/nyregion/14BUDG.html
Good idea. People that derive their income and use city services should be happy to pay for them.
I also am completely in support of Bloomberg's anti-smoking proposal. Elaine Kaufman's whining is just that. She should be told that business has never been better at California's bars and restaurants, totally smoke-free.
I for one only go out to bars maybe once every two months these days. if they were smoke free, I'd probably stop by at least once every week or two.
And the commuter tax? it should have never been taken off the books...
Good idea. People that derive their income and use city services should be happy to pay for them.
Use city services? Exactly what city services do suburban commuters use? Sure, they use transit, but of course they pay for the privilege. And suburbanites are generally less likely to use transit during the late night hours when farebox recovery rates are at their lowest.
It might be easier to look at what city services suburban commuters do not use:
They do not send their children to city schools.
They are relatively unlikely to use city hospitals, and if they do, they have health insurance.
They do not use any of the city's myriad social services.
They make little use of the city's libraries and parks.
Amazing how this commuter tax proposal was floated less than one week AFTER ELECTION DAY. This tax needs 'home rule' legislation from Albany. If it passes, all the state senators and assemblymen will hope that the people have short memories two years from now when they come up for re-election.
If this passes, then Tom Suozzi, Robert Gaffney and all other county executives plus the leaders (?) from the other suburbs should see that a similar tax is imposed on NYC residents who work in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester et al.
After all don't these people take advantage of our roads, police, fire, sanitation, etc.
I'm sure that the number of reverse commuters do not equal the number of commuters but it might bring more pressure to kill this self-defeating proposal.
If this passes, then Tom Suozzi, Robert Gaffney and all other county executives plus the leaders (?) from the other suburbs should see that a similar tax is imposed on NYC residents who work in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester et al.
Should this tax be imposed on Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester residents who work in their own counties?
No the commuter tax is not imposed on people who live in NYC. When Bloomie raises the REAL ESTATE TAX to the levels here on LI then there could more of an argument for a commuter tax.
I know landlords who own 8 unit apartment houses whose real estate taxes are $3,000 per year, which is $375 per living unit per year, while I live in an 8 room house on Long Island and pay $ 6,500 per year.
Listen, NYC is being ripped off by the rest of the state, and ripped off by the rest of the nation, in 1,000 ways. But Peter is right about the commuter tax. The property and sales taxes paid by the businesses they patronize pay for the limited services they use many times over.
That's why suburban communities always try to overzone for business while keeping out new people, esepcially the non-affluent. That's called "fiscal zoning," and NYC has often done it in reverse -- building more low income housing, and zoning new businesses out.
So repealing the commuter tax wasn't a crime per se. Allowing it to be repealed without demanding some of the anti-NYC ripoffs be repealed at the same time (ie. the school aid formula, the Medicaid formula, the TBTA toll distribution formula) was.
BTW, as far as folks like Joe Bruno is concerned, what's the next best thing to screwing those who live in NYC? Screwing those who work in NYC.
No the commuter tax is not imposed on people who live in NYC.
Not true. The NYC Income tax was enacted for NYC residents at the same time that the commuter payroll tax was enacted for non-residents working in the city. The NYC Income tax is rougly 10 times greater than the payroll tax. The NYC Income tax on NYC residents was not repealed at the same time that the commuter payroll tax was repealed.
Bloomberg appears to want to rectify this imbalance. Now, both residents and non-residents would pay an identical income tax.
Does this mollify your feelings of unfairness? :-)
No the commuter tax is not imposed on people who live in NYC.
Not true. The NYC Income tax was enacted for NYC residents at the same time that the commuter payroll tax was enacted for non-residents working in the city. The NYC Income tax is rougly 10 times greater than the payroll tax. The NYC Income tax on NYC residents was not repealed at the same time that the commuter payroll tax was repealed.
As I've noted repeatedly, NYC residents place much greater burdens on city services than do suburban commuters.
As I've noted repeatedly, NYC residents place much greater burdens on city services than do suburban commuters.
So may I infer that you are not against Bloomberg's income tax proposal, per se? You only believe that commuters should pay less than City residents because they place fewer demands on NYC. May I further suppose that the old commuter payroll tax, where commuters paid about one tenth as much as city residents, would meet your criterion of fairness?
THESE elections PROVED "short memory" ... Enron was acquitted. Hey, admit it, you kissed a beaver with a kickstand. Paturkey for Thanksgiving, anyone? :)
"If this passes, then Tom Suozzi, Robert Gaffney and all other county executives plus the leaders (?) from the other suburbs should see that a similar tax is imposed on NYC residents who work in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester et al."
That's been tried (NJ tried it) and was thrown out by the Supreme Court. You can't impose an income tax on non-residents unless you also impose at least the same tax on residents.
Schenectady: 25% prop tax hike, Albany, 30%, Troy looking at 40% plus equal parking fine hikes to NYC ... these numbers that Bloomberg is proposing MATCH tax hikes all over the state announced this week. And there will be many more. Like I said before the election, the state is in DEEP poo and PATURKEY LIED.
In addition, most cities and localities upstate are looking at reductions in their workforce ranging from 15% (Albany) to as much as 60% (Troy) ... the state workforce will be cut, and so will others. "It's the economy stupid," and it's too late. :(
"Like I said before the election, the state is in DEEP poo and PATURKEY LIED."
These are numbers that Bloomberg is requesting. Pataki hasn't had his say just yet. -Nick
Well, the document I was looking for from Division of the Budget has been pulled from the agency's web site, so about all I can offer is a mediocre synopsis of it by a state reporter from the Albany Times Union newspaper. It should still pretty much provide a flavor of the mess we're about to go into ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=69700&category=GOVRACE&BCCode=GV&newsdate=11/13/2002
No subscription required ...
Aha ... no wonder Paturkey and the Division of the budget have gone silent. State leader Joe Bruno decided to speak on behalf of the governor instead:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=72242&category=STATE&newsdate=11/14/2002
We're only 2 billion in the hole, so we're OK. Time for another train station I guess. :)
Isn't it amazing how much the state and city economic outlooks changed from November 5 to November 14?
Wasn't like I didn't *WARN* people that the truth was OUT there if only they'd bothered to follow all the now dead links I posted in the past to the Albany Times Union and other credible news organizations that actually WATCH the phuckers here in Albany and Trailer Park county over where Bruno sits on his Ti-D-bowl stadium. :)
But yeah, I've been warning folks here for MONTHS about it so lard-assed morons could whine that I was "off topic with politics" while this shell game got played in people's faces. The cause of my own personal malfunction in having done it is that, like most TRANSIT EMPLOYEES, folks who depend on the eagle crapping biweekly who are sworn (ahem) "IN" have to keep an eye on the politicos - part of the job, know WHEN to pick up dat soap. My own experience extends beyond that, having been a journalist who did political reporting for a few years, and then was a founder (and BUILDER) of "NY-SCAN" ... check it out ...
http://www.commoncause.org/states/newyork/study0501/history.html
http://www.commoncause.org/states/newyork/study0501/conclusion.html
I designed and built the TECHNICAL aspects of NY-SCAN and stayed on as FCC Chief Engineer (desk title, "Chief Operator," and Civil Service title [since abolished] of "Senior Cable Television Program Equipment Technician"), and in conjunction with others who operated the channel, got stuck in hearing room after boring hearing room DOING the crap, and PUTTING the pigs on the air. BRUNO killed it with TimeWarner's financial backing, and Paturkey jerked as usual on Bruno's strings. Guess TimeWarner paid him too. Bottom line, as hard as they wanna try, they CANNOT resurrect it (a personal pyhrric victory).
Therefore, when *I* go political, I have journalistic background as well as having to LISTEN to these phuckers after the "press" left. And I got PAID by them, so I had to worry about anything I thought, said or did ... NOW, I don't care. Folks mistakenly believe that I favor one party over another, I *don't* ... they're *ALL* selfish bastards out to screw *YOU* ... and yet you vote for the incumbent. DOH! :)
>>> But yeah, I've been warning folks here for MONTHS about it so lard-assed morons could whine that I was "off topic with politics" while this shell game got played in people's faces. <<<
And you promised to give it a rest after the elections. As the saying goes, you are beginning to chew your cud twice. Moo.
Tom
"Like I said before the election, the state is in DEEP poo and PATURKEY LIED."
Your assessment of Golisano was pretty good too. See
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/nyregion/14MATT.html
I can't object to his holding the position he did on tuition for illegal immigrants. But his way of supporting it was sneaky and polarising to the extreme.
Yep, you'll be pleased that I checked out his nonsense (Gollisano, who really realy does have abackchannel to the mothership which has since beamed him up to reinstate him once again in FOUR years through the miracle of cryogenics, New York's OWN Harold Stassen) on all sides (thanks to satellite instead of cable, you can watch EVERYTHING) and I found him to be really no worse than the democans or replutocraps) ...but I won't waste my time on analyzing Golisano, hell ... Anna Nicole is prettier. :(
But yeah, once again we have PROFF that the American electorate is what Mencken and others have supposed, "dumber than a box of bowling balls" ... and hey, the nonsense WORKED. Fortunately for ME, I'm living in the woods. Makes no difference to me, Bambi is the same price at Wal*Mart, 29 cents a round. :)
(In addition, most cities and localities upstate are looking at reductions in their workforce ranging from 15% (Albany) to as much
as 60% (Troy) ... the state workforce will be cut, and so will others. "It's the economy stupid," and it's too late. :()
It was too late even before the election. McCall would do better? The die is cast. I've been sick about it for three years, since the deals were done in 1999 and 2000 that put us in this mess.
The time for blaming the state is past, however. Bloomberg backed Pataki for re-election, and the idiots in the City Council backed our wonderful Democratic state legislators. So I don't want to hear about it being the state's fault now. It's Bloomberg and the Council's fault, even though I know it isn't
Sounds like a good time to buy stock in moving-van companies and Sunbelt housebuilders.
Or, from a corporate angle -- if they don't want to go that far -- Jersey City real estate. :-)
If I had money I'd invest in office space in Nassau and NJ - businesses will be moving there by the droves!! That way their employees won't have to pay the city tax...
How many other cities can you pull this off?
Got on a Red Line train at about 7:25 AM as usual with the usual operator for that run.
Then, at 6:50 PM, get on another Red Line train. I normally don't take the Metro home in the evenings, but I did today. First few announcements are mumbled, at the first station it sounds like a familiar voice, and at the second station, I realize this is the same operator I get many mornings.
How did I pull this off, despite getting on the second train almost 12 hours after I got on the first?
WMATA has split shifts since half as many trains are needed weekday middays than at rush hours. So the question is, how many other cities do this? I always knew WMATA did this, but I believe this is the first time I have gotten the same operator twice in a day. If it wasn't it certainly was the largest gap between getting the same operator (almost 12 hours). I have just switched ends when we got to the terminal and got on the same train but that doesn't count.
Also, another coincidence, I got 1039 this morning and 2039 this evening.
Finally, I shot a movie of 1117 this evening. I am hoping that it comes out well enough to be put on OTP. Speaking of OTP, the new server should be open either this weekend or next if all goes well, and by Thanksgiving at the latest.
Split shifts were fairly common in transit for just the reasons you noted. On SEPTA there are still many runs with split shift operations, although part-timers are eating into some of this.
I had a friend (he passed away 2 yrs. ago) who was a SEPTA Bus driver. After his morning run , instead of sitting around the depot,he would get another run for his mid-day swing. Then back to his night shift run. On his days off, he made even more money by working 3 longer runs that day.
Chuck Greene
How many other cities do this? Any city that has a workday morning and evening rush hour. Split shifts have been a fact of the transit industry since the days of horsecars.
I understand TWU finally got rid of that madness in New York many moons ago. I worked splits as both a conductor and a motorman. It *sucked* ... and what I learned is that a good number of folks didn't shape up for the PM run, had too many beers for lunch or quit. Me, I went the OTHER statistical route - I crashed a TRAIN.
Splits ain't such a bright idea, except to beancounters.
In Baltimore we called them swings, and I loved 'em. Get up early, work to 10:00 AM, then off until 2:30 to 6 ish. First part on 8, second on 15.
Usually paid 9 to 9 1/2 hours.
The mid-day was good for the chores you couldn't get done on an early straight, like going to bank or getting auto oil changed or things like that.
Yeah, that might have worked for me ... my problem is that I lived at 205th in the Bronx (northbound terminal of the D) and had to report for both shifts and roundtrip from Stillwell (Coney) back to Coney. So for the hours I worked, spent just as many deadheading home and to work and ended up having to split shift SLEEP also. Now had I been assigned to report at Bedford, that would have been the teats. Didn't work that way though. :(
I know this is not Bus talk but at Suffolk Transit, many routes have a run here or there with a split or "swing" attached. Most drivers hate it though. It's really kool if you live near by the garage you could run home or what ever you like.
Dave
Does it make $ense? To pay people for that dead time even at half rate?
Back in THOSE days, we only got paid when we were ON A TRAIN. PREP time wasn't on the clock, nor was fetching the mofo off the ladder. Those deadheads were on my OWN time, OFF the clock. Wonder why I have such a Chitty attitude about local 100/UMD? I got HOSED, but it STILL paid better than fixing teevee sets. :)
Folks don't REALIZE how good they've got it these days. STILL, I worked for the state and also know everyone gets their time in the barrel with the high hard one, but GEEZ. *WE* got knocked up! Heh.
Well killing DH is an MTA request so is non-fulltime tricks
???
Put down da handle with that mysterious hole in the bottom and the end which allows you to put a SCREEN n da hole in da bottom and smoke da ganga ... huh? :)
Back in the DAZE of splitties, we just learned how to use "Elbow grease" on our sphincters in schoolcar. Has something CHANGED? LoveLube? Asspotion number nine? Inquiring mines knead to gno. Ewww.
they are asking to reduce DEADHEAD payments and also are talking about part time TO's in the next pick.
Yep, here we go again ... same mental midgets that have let their INTERNET equivalent go the way of www.nycsubway.com and www.nycsubways.com go the way of our brainless leaders at www.whitehouse.com ... yep, it all FITS ... :(
And hey, as the LAST "splits" proved, let's KILL some STRAPHANGERS, phuck'em for not having a limo ... geez. Yep, ain't you "GLAD you're a republican." Ayup.
I know New York doesn't do them anymore, not to mention, they don't have the same number of trains in both AM and PM rush hours. In DC the same number of trains and operators are required and since exactly half as many are needed for middays, it makes sense. You can also pick a straight shift when you get the senority, although I think the splits are liked alot by the higher senority. From what I understand, they actually pay you a small amountfor the 9:30 to 3 time frame in addition to the 6:30 to 9:30 and 3:30 to 6:30 periods.
We have lots of such split shifts where I drive out here in southern California. As long as a driver is within a 15-hour spread time, they're legal.
In many cases, it could have been an extra-board operator too.
Many of our splits are 3-4 hours; our contract calls for paying a driver for a split of 59 minutes or less....or pay them for whatever time of a split extends 211 or more minutes (in other words, a four-horu split, they get paid a half hour).
Luckily I have enough seniority to get a straight run.
I will be going to Japan during the last week of November, and I wonder if the subtalk gang wants to see pictures from that country's subways and railroads. If I get enough of them, would they become an additional segment of the Asia/Pacific section on rapid transit systems? I will send as many pics as possible to Mr. Pirrman for his review, and if he gives the green light, the rest of you will see what the Japanese must deal with at rush hour. Let us see what turns up.
Sure get as many pictures as you want and upload them. I would like to learn more about the japense railways and subways. I have a whole bunch of those routes as Bve routes. I would like to see pictures of these actually lines. Have a nice trip in Japan.
Adam
For sure, I don't think I've seen too many photos of that system. Try to get photos of the "pushers" doing their thing, if they are still around. I would love to compare it to Sao Paulo's commuter rail, whose rush hour makes Lexington Av during peak time look empty.
Take the Narita Express from the airport to Tokyo Station. Go to the first car and you can railfan. Among the highlights along the way, position light signals and the Chiba Monorail. I was there just last week...
Bring your wallet. Everything is very expensive to Americans.
I think that the 1962 Silverliner II's came with silicon diode packs and the PRR E-44 freight units bought in 1960 had the iniital units be Hg arc rectifiers and the later units (E-44a) be silicon diode.
The Si diode packs are secondary rectification. The Hg tubes were used as 'voltage valves' in the "A" variable voltage winding. The B and C windings were constant voltage, with no tubes, just diodes. The A winding fed a diode pack. Each pack was 24 sillicon diodes arranged as a bridge (each leg being 6 diodes). Thus, there were 3 packs of 24 diodes.
The A winding could be varried from about 70 volts to it's full 637 something voltage. B and C were the both the same, I think at 567 volts. Thus, the voltage could be run from 70V to 1911 volts, which was then fed in parrallel to each truck, which had 2 motors in permenant series.
No shunting was used at all to achive the 80mph rated speed of the units.
The A winding would vary under electronic control. When it was at full voltage, the B would kick in, A would go to 70V, and then raise up to max. Then C would kick in and it'd repeat. The actual voltage variation was via phase angle control. This is what the tubes did.
GE's proposal for the Arrow I (Westinghouse got it, I think) says it's the same PCI system that the SL II has, which I know as a fact was delivered with Ignitrons.
The Pioneer III probbably used ignitrons in both the voltage valve AND rectifier sections.
Eventually all the E-44's got the silicon diode packs, so I wouldn't see why the Silverliners II's if not built w/ the technology wouldn't have been built w/ an upgrade in mind.
As stated, the SL II's had ignitrons. The Arrow IIs did, and the GE Metroliners I believe did. The M-2s were delivered with ignitrons, but converted to SCR. The Arrow III was totally SCR.
Although the controller had 4 notches, the actual control system was continuously throttleable from near zero power to full. None of the GE electric locomotives were. I believe Asea built the first continuously throttleable locomotive (RC-1? The RC-1 was also the first all SCR based locomotive), and they were one of the first all SCR MU builders. Westinghouse used SCR (also Thyristor, in some documentation) technology in the Metroliner (split order), and the Arrow I (according to GSI's book on it). The Westinghouse SCR system was a failure, I believe. Early SCRs didn't like inductive loads at all.
The Pioneer III cars had Hg Arc rectifier tubes for sure and probably kept them until retirement.
Yes. Liquid cooled to, I believe. I don't know who equipped the New Haven cars, but I believe they were not phase angle control, and had liquid cooled rectifiers. They also supposedly had a rep for misfires and arcbacks, both of which are bad news for an Ignitron tube.
I have a book which I believe is a copy of the actual proposal from GE to the PRR for the NJ Arrow I order. It includes a lot of interesting features (60Hz, 25kv, automagic changeover), including the dynamic brake option, which used a single hangle controller that's a dead ringer for the LIRR M-1's.
BTW, the Reading order of Silverliner IVs have 25kv 60hz capability on them, and I believe 11kv 60hz. Thus, they can theoretically run the entire NEC, plus NJT territory. If GE got the Arrow I order, it would have shipped with a 25kv tap on the main transformer.
Wow! Thanks for the details! :)
The E-44's first used liquid cooled Hg rectifiers which is why they wanted them repalced with solid state. Would the Hg based voltage values need similar water cooling? The whole liquid cooling requirement was why I thought the Hg tubes would be dropped like a bad habbit. Also, on my SEPTA shoppe tour I saw absolutely nothing about any Hg based electronics. Hg requires some pretty strict environmental proceedures and absolutely none of that was evident in the SEPTA shops where electrical work was preformed on all of the Silverliner classes.
Would the Silverliner III's have had Hg tubes?
The E-33 and E-44 used liquid (water) cooling, the EP-5 might have been either water or oil.
The Silverliner II and onward were air blast. The 1963 Silverliners needed a 1 hour warm up on cold days, the later ones had anode heaters.
SEPTA might still use them. The amount of Hg in them is akin to that of a flourescent bulb (I'm told), and the tubes are sealed glass/steel devices anyway. They woudn't handle them directly, but rather change out and send to a rebuilder.
Such tubes are still used in industry in places.
Unless you knew what to look for and where, you'd miss one of these things. They don't look much like tubes at all.
If you ever get a shop tour again, let me know, I'd loveto tag along. I'd like to see what's in all those boxes under there.
GE might have sold SEPTA on SCR conversions, but I don't know.
Oh yes, the black hole I pulled this out of? A 1/2 thick GE book on the propulsion system proposed for the Arrow I. With letters to St Louis Car and your favorite Pa based car manufacturer (who didn't get the contract for Arrow I). It has a total system description, including options, and diagrams of the equipment.
I was the sole bidder on ebay for this. Sad. Cross out MU and write in the model of a generic GE diesel, and everyone would have been tripping over themselves to get it.
Yes, ignitron tubes look like big features metal cylinders with bolts. From a description I read of them, they need a small pool of Hg, on which an "ignitor" (a lead from a tube diode) makes an arc and vapourizes a spot on the Hg metal pool which then lets the current flow. So there seems to be more than a little Hg in them.
Oh, and I know that the E-44's had 6 motors per truck. That 567 voltage # is correct. I don't know what black hole you pull this information out of, but its really great.
used SCR (also Thyristor, in some documentation)
Thyristor is a generic term a solid-state device that behaves
like a thyratron tube, i.e. it blocks up to a certain voltage
and then breaks down. An SCR is an example of a thyristor.
It's not as much as you'd think it is. I too imagis this big pool at the bottom of the tube, but people I've talked to who've seen them and the various types say it's not a big pool at all, and it's not really even much.
They have trouble with cold temperatures (likely for the same reasons as flourescents), and remember that one design goal was likely to get the voltage drop as low as possible, which in a tube requires close electrode spacing.
Having said that, I've never actually seen one of these, so I wouldn't know exactly how big the pool is, but I'm told it's very small.
Later tube Seeburgs had a leaf switch on the turntable...sensed the 45 or 33 RPM hole...motor drive servo unit became transistorised but the rest of the jukebox was tubes until black/blue box MSI integration
The Auto Speed in the 'Q' was all tube. You had to drill vent holes to install it!
Blue/black boxes are something I've yet to run into. I try to avoid late model Seeburgs for a few reasons (noteably, they're butt ugly)
universal serial/parallel converters were placed in use.
???
Remember the Seeburg 'TORMAT?.'
Yeah, seen those. IIRC, first use of computer 'core' memory by anyone.
Cleaned those suckers with a piece of sandpaper and degreased the scanning fingers.
Scans twice, doesn't pick! Scans twice again, doesn't pick. Kick it, try a third time, scans twice again. Drop another quarter....
Let us not forget 'morning sickness,' hardened grease in the scan motor ran the gearbox slow in cold weather until warmed up.
Scan motor? I thought all Seeburgs were single motor? Oh yeah, ever watch a V run? Slower than molasses. Hey, kinda like another V we all know... :)
Oh yes, the L and KD/KS circuit boards are no fun either :(
TA green monkey oil would have fixed em all up. CI peter
Ok, what's 'Green Monkey Oil'?
Seeburgs had one carraige/scan motor. Turntable was the other. My memory has to be tweekd: UARTs....universal asynchronus receiver/transmitters....in black/blue boxes. Used to run my motorcycle over to Al Simon at 43rd and 10th...was remembered even twenty years later. Green Monkey Oil is the organic vegetable oil used by the gallons in TA for everything Redbird...even imparts a nice 'flavah' to pizza and cleans out the bowels too.
Weird. All the seeburgs I've seen were one motor, but I suspect they did in fact adopt 2 in the 60's or 70's.
I've got a Wurlitzer 2204 now in the basement getting revived. Fun mechanism to watch. Easy to repair, too, thankfully...
In case anyone is curious, I came across this site with recent monorail construction pics, and it seems to be progressing nicely.
Monorail Construction Pictures
allright !! man i will be there on opening day ! 4 SURE
I'll be in Vegas around Christmas...I'll be sure to check it out.
I'lll be there in January - I will too.
Have they built the supports to hook the new line into the existing monorail between Bally's and the MGM Grand, or is that line not going to be part of the new system?
The new section looks exactly like the old section....which looks almost exactly like Walt Disney World's system.
When I was there for the APTA Show, the line was doing pretty well. Most of the beams were in place, except for gaps where the stations were to be.
I hope this monorail will have a smoother ride than the EWR Airtrain, which was really bumpy. I remember thinking that it was a poor choice, technologically, for the train to the plane. The cars are very small and rather cramped too. Hope Vegas' version of monorail transport is better.
BTW, is it going to connect with McCarran Airport?
Reminds me -- too bad new Amtrak starts are abandoned. I was looking forward to seeing that L.A.-L.V. Talgo service come on line.
A set of Jerome Redbirds running on the 5 Tuesday night? 9234-35, 9254-55, 9292-93, 9301-03 made up the train. That's unusual. A few of these cars haven't run on the 5 in a number of years. I wonder....
Over at Concourse Yard, another group of Redbirds was awaiting disposition. At the front of one group was 4 WH R-36s. 9442-43 were among those awaiting their fate.
Dang it! R-17 #6895 was drenched in the pooring rain (as was I). Hope the rain didn't get inside. Storm door was slightly ajar.
-Stef
Sounds like Unca Peter's been busy this week. :)
How can we save a few of these trainsets for CI school or Branford???
I've been busy with R142s...the other day I had propulsky split between two trainsets...had two cars to do...lacking gauges. Ran back and forth all day till I dropped dead...head out 'B' car had a disintegrated axle brush assembly which would have noticed only on proper inspection...ten million dollars of trainset is still out of RTO service four days later. Redbird 'troubles' is reaL WORK that ends at a decent time in the shift...R142s 'troubles' just goes on and on unless you cannot be found.
11:00 PM
Channel 5 WNYW
Thursday, 14 November
Seinfeld
The Subway 30 min.
Subway adventures from 1992: A beauty picks up George;
Jerry makes friends with a naked guy; Kramer is tipped
to a hot horse; Elaine gets stuck en route to
a lesbian wedding.
AND.....
8:00 pm
Saturday 16 November
A & E Network
Behind Closed Doors
NYC Subway 60 min.
Joan Lunden visits the Metropolitan Transportation Authority,
the nerve center for New York's subway system and gets to
drive a subway train; learns how special situations are handled
on subways...
Per TVGuide OnLine the Behind Closed (RedBird) Doors will be on the 23rd.
Errr...
Due to a typographical GO "November 16" should
really be "November 23"..
Thanks, jr
I realize New York City needs to raise money, but the commuter tax is not the way to do it. Everytime I go into the city, the MTA gets nearly $20 of money from me riding the train round trip, and frankly, thats quite enough. I already pay a lot more than the Boston and Chicago Commuter rails..take a look at what they charge for equal distances!
Also, with the city wanting businesses to stay and move back into the city after 9/11..the commuter tax won't help this one bit. Why pay to commute to NYC, when you can commute to CT and NJ for free? -Nick
Commuting to CT and NJ isn't free. There are tolls on the NJ Turnpike and someone commuting is driving a car, which is hardly cost-free! Compare the real cost of driving a mile or two to the station and taking the train, versus driving 10 - 30 miles each way to work from home (gas, maintenance, tires, etc.). At 27 cents/mile and a 50-mile roundtrip commute, that's $54/week, exclusive of maintenance. If a monthly commuter ticket is, let's say, $250, the costs end up about the same.
I meant commuting by train, either by MNRR to CT or NJT to NJ. -Nick
Any imposition of a city income tax on NJ or CT commuters does not represent a tax increase for them. Such taxes, like the NYS Income Tax they already pay, is treated as a tax credit on their NJ or CT income tax returns. Such money paid to NYS and NYC reduces their NJ or CT income tax liability dollar for dollar.
What a city tax on commuter incomes represents is a shift of tax receipts from Trenton or Hartford to NYC. Similarly individual commuters never saw a penny from the repeal of the commuter tax in 1999. Trenton and Hartford got it all.
The same does not apply to NYS residents who pay taxes on income to NYC. NYS residents cannot deduct nor get tax credits for income or real estate taxes paid to any entity of the state.
OTOH, only local income and real estate taxes are deductible on one's federal income taxes. (Prior to the Reagan "tax cut", all state taxes wwere deductible.)Raising such local taxes, will not increase a tax payer's total tax liability by the full amount. Assuming one is in a 25% federal bracket, then one's actual taxes are only 75 cents on each dollar paid to NYC. This is not true for other taxes, such as sales tax and user fees. Each dollar raised by NYC by these means represents a full dollar out of the payer's pocket.
Not quite true.
Before the early 90's, you did get a full credit in all cases. Now, because every state wants to extract the last penny, what you have are allocation rules.
If you earn ALL your income in one location (say NYC) and live elsewhere (say CT), then you do get a full credit in your home state for tax paid where you work. But assume that your spouse also has income, and that income is from you home state. What happens is that your home state will reduce the deduction for NYC tax by the percentage of income that is not NYC related.
For example, if the NYC wage earner makes $100,000 and pays the (proposed) Bloomberg tax of $2,700, and the CT spouse also makes $100,000, but in CT, CT will allow only a $1,350 credit for the NYC tax against the $12,000 CT tax.
(Note that if the only income was $200,000 earned in NYC, CT would allow a full $5,400 credit against the same $12,000 CT tax!)
I have no objection to paying NYC tax for services even though I live in CT. But I do object to paying more because each jurisdiction seeks to grab the maximum amount possible!
Before the early 90's, you did get a full credit in all cases. Now, because every state wants to extract the last penny, what you have are allocation rules.
I was not aware of that wrinkle. My personal experience being an interstate commuter ended in 1969.
At that time I had to pay NJ income taxes, even though there wasn't a NJ income tax for NJ residents. The entire tax paid was a credit that offset my NYS tax payment.
I have no objection to paying NYC tax for services even though I live in CT. But I do object to paying more because each jurisdiction seeks to grab the maximum amount possible!
I would think your quarrel is with Hartford. I'd also think that the allocation rules are probably in violation of the Constitution's prohibition against interstate tarriffs.
The old NJ tax was unconstitutional, because its sole purpose was to sop up the NY taxes.
Actually, it was NY that started the apportionment wars by denying full credit for reverse commuters who worked in NJ and CT. NJ and CT then retaliated.
Finally, the US Supreme Court has never held that dual taxation (where income was earned and where the taxpayer resides) is either constitutional or unconstitutional in the context of individual taxpayers. For corporations, however, it is unconstitutional.
>>> Finally, the US Supreme Court has never held that dual taxation (where income was earned and where the taxpayer resides) is either constitutional or unconstitutional in the context of individual taxpayers. For corporations, however, it is unconstitutional. <<<
Although not specifically decided, I cannot imagine the reasoning which would find it could be unconstitutional for corporations and constitutional for individuals.
Tom
If you earn ALL your income in one location (say NYC) and live elsewhere (say CT), then you do get a full credit in your home state for tax paid where you work. But assume that your spouse also has income, and that income is from you home state. What happens is that your home state will reduce the deduction for NYC tax by the percentage of income that is not NYC related.
For example, if the NYC wage earner makes $100,000 and pays the (proposed) Bloomberg tax of $2,700, and the CT spouse also makes $100,000, but in CT, CT will allow only a $1,350 credit for the NYC tax against the $12,000 CT tax.
I don't think your statement is entirely accurate. CT limits the amount of credit so that credits derived from paying NYS income tax cannot be used to reduce the tax liability on income derived from CT sources.
In your example, you assumed a total income of $200,000 and a CT tax liability of $12,000, with half the income subject to NYS taxes. The amount of maximum tax credit CT permitted for paying NYS taxes would be $6,000. ($12,000 x $100,000 / $200,000). To the extent that NYS tax rates are higher than those of CT, then that excess tax does indeed make the NYS income subject to a higher rate than were it earned in CT.
Should CT raise its tax rates, then CT residents who work in NYS would suffer far less than CT residents who work in CT.
Just so's you folks know ... the proposed "BUSH tax cut" would eliminate deductions for property taxes and mortgages. It's still bouncing around in committee, but Tom DeLay has already said that in exchange for the reduction in the inheritance tax (ahem, "death tax") and a cut in capital gains, some deductions will need to go. Of course, the "poot out a fresh baby each annum credit" will go up. But if you're a property owner, you is SCROOD, since property taxes are the fastest accelerating tax nationwide aside from SCHOOL taxes, which would also not be deductable.
Ah well ... at the rate things are going, folks might as well move INTO New York. Bingbong and I like it here despite the STATE emptying our wallets before the feds ever get near it. :)
Bingbong and I like it here despite the STATE emptying our wallets before the feds ever get near it.
God only knows why. If I were in your position, I'd probably be riding MARTA to work.
We run an INTERNET business, and we could just as well be in BIMINI. As long as there's a DIALTONE, we're set. Wish the PIGS we elect oculd ralize that, but no ... we actually LOVE NEW YORK. That's why we LIVE here. But that could change. As long as there's DIALTONE anywhere on the PLANET, we could continue to do our thing.
****THAT**** is how MUCH we LOVE New York ... and yet that moron Joe Bruno and the rest of our PIGS in office want to screw US too. And already HAVE ... just so y'all know how MUCH we believe in New York, even if our elected SWINE *****DON'T***** ... arrrrgh! $cumbags!
"Ah well ... at the rate things are going, folks might as well move INTO New York"
Believe me, I want to. Once I get a full-time job and can afford housing in one of the 5 boroughs, I am big-apple bound! -Nick
If too much NYC taxes reduces the amout that CT or NJ takes in, then they might have to raise taxes !!
If too much NYC taxes reduces the amout that CT or NJ takes in, then they might have to raise taxes !!
They will have to raise taxes regardless of what NYC does.
The state in which the income is earned has first crack at any income taxes. That's the way the system works. Both NJ and CT tax the income of NY residents working in their states. That provides some form of "equity" in this respect.
<< OTOH, only local income and real estate taxes are deductible on one's federal income taxes. (Prior to the Reagan "tax cut", all state taxes wwere deductible.)>>
Not so. Section 164 of the Internal Revenue Code states that state income taxes are still deductible as an itemized deduction on Schedule A of Form 1040. See below, subsections (a)(3) and (b)(2):
§ 164. Taxes
(a) General rule.--Except as otherwise provided in this section, the following taxes shall be allowed as a deduction for the taxable year within which paid or accrued:
(1) State and local, and foreign, real property taxes.
(2) State and local personal property taxes.
(3) State and local, and foreign, income, war profits, and excess profits taxes.
(4) The GST tax imposed on income distributions.
(5) The environmental tax imposed by section 59A.
In addition, there shall be allowed as a deduction State and local, and foreign, taxes not described in the preceding sentence which are paid or accrued within the taxable year in carrying on a trade or business or an activity described in section 212 (relating to expenses for production of income). Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, any tax (not described in the first sentence of this subsection) which is paid or accrued by the taxpayer in connection with an acquisition or disposition of property shall be treated as part of the cost of the acquired property or, in the case of a disposition, as a reduction in the amount realized on the disposition.
(b) Definitions and special rules.--For purposes of this section--
(1) Personal property taxes.--The term "personal property tax" means an ad valorem tax which is imposed on an annual basis in respect of personal property.
(2) State or local taxes.--A State or local tax includes only a tax imposed by a State, a possession of the United States, or a political subdivision of any of the foregoing, or by the District of Columbia.
Among people who form 1040-EZ, who itemizes? Aren't you GLAD you're a republican? Don't ya wanna just bash in the faces of those who ARE? :(
And SPEAKING of "proud to be a republican," has it SETTLED IN YET? The end is nowhere in sight. You see, those of us who live UPSTATE ALREADY got shafted BEFORE election day. Folks didn't believe me. Now it's YOUR TURN ... "aren't you GLAD you're republican?" Bloomberg was a democrat, but you INSISTED on Republicans.
Y'all GOT what you voted for (or didn't) ... wish I could be sympathetic, but I alread GOT thr reailty. Upstate pays taxes BEFORE you do since repubs KNOW us upstaters will vote for them anyway. Neener-neener. TOLD YA ... :(
All state and local taxes were deductible, prior to the Reagan "tax cuts". These taxes included not only income and real estate taxes but also sales taxes, gasoline and other excise taxes, etc. Even the NYC Automobile Use Tax could be deducted.
One could save one's receipts to prove taxes were paid, but there were tables for estimating sales taxes based on income and jurisdiction. There were tables for gasoline taxes based on residence and miles travelled. Accounting for these deductions was one of the easier parts to filling out a 1040.
The services you demand rom a government cost x$.
They must collect that amount in taxes.
Pay up and quit your bitching.
Or reduce the services demanded.
If you live or work in the city you pay a tax to the city.
The city may divide its taxes into catagories and collect it in different ways.
A transit tax would hopefully go to provided transit services.
A fuel tax would hopefully go to maintain roads.
Roads can also be improved by reducing the traffic demands by improving transit.
Elias
That's SIXTY Hail Mary's there, bro. But YES, that's reality. Thank GOD those of us who live upstate only expect the ROADS to be plowed. That's about ALL we can expect up here. In da city, folks actually expect their GARBAGE to be picked up ... for FREE!!!!!!!!! Heh. Can you imagine Manhattan loading up the pee-cup truck and having to haul it out to da landfill? Whoa. :)
"Pay up and quit your bitching."
Thats the thing, Elias...me and thousands of other commuters already feel like we pay up. We don't want our rates increased more. -Nick
That's the problem. You feel like you pay up.
Trust me, commuters do pay their fair share of city taxes, despite placing few significant demands on city services. Imposing the commuter tax will only make matters worse.
They do?
The commuter rail systems are effectively subsidized by the subway. Metro-North (I don't know about LIRR) monthly ticketholders are even eligible for $25 unlimited MetroCards, while the rest of us have to pay $63.
Commuters from the suburbs generally confine their subway and commuter rail riding to rush hours, when (as you point out) operating costs per capita are lowest but (as you don't bother pointing out) capital costs are highest. (The 63rd Street connector wasn't built to accomodate midday crowds. ESA isn't being built to accomodate weekend crowds.) City residents' riding patterns have less of a peak.
For the 8+ hours each weekday a commuter is in the city, that commuter is using the same city services a city resident is using during that time, including parks, streets, and police protection.
Tell you what. The suburbanites here who think a commuter tax is unfair should petition their town and village governments to impose reciprocal commuter taxes. Then it will all be equitable, right?
"(The 63rd Street connector wasn't built to accomodate midday crowds"
The 63rd Street connector takes people outside of midtown, where the commuters don't go! -Nick
For the 8+ hours each weekday a commuter is in the city, that commuter is using the same city services a city resident is using during that time, including parks, streets, and police protection.
Fair enough, although all those services would still have to be provided, arguably at somewhat lower levels, were it not for the commuters. My point, however, is that while commuters may use these infrastructure-like services to some extent, they do not use, or very seldom use, the expensive transactional-like services such as schools, health care, Medicaid and social services. That's where the city spends the vast majority of its money, and commuters are not part of the demand.
Nor are most taxpaying residents. Your point?
Nobody's asking commuters to pay as much as residents, or even one-third as much (8 hours vs. 24 hours).
For the 8+ hours each weekday a commuter is in the city, that commuter is using the same city services a city resident is using during that time, including parks, streets, and police protection.
But at the same time they are also adding money to the city by spending. Many of those commuters also many times buy breakfast and lunch from the area shops, patronize the local drug store, shoe store, clothes store or whatever. That is different than than public services, but is still beneficial to the city. Yes they are also using city services during that time, but they also help support the local economy around their workplaces also.
And city residents don't spend money in the city?
And city residents don't spend money in the city?
That's not how I meant it. What I meant by that was that the city needs the commuters just as much as the commuters need the city. The commuters add to the city economy (not that the city residents don't). And the commuters need the city also, or else they wouldn't have a job, or at least not as high pay if they didn't have the city.
I don't really feel that it should be city against suburb. A healthy city has healthy suburbs, and healthy suburbs need a healthy city, and they both contribute to each other's health.
I feel that I am not biased in either's favor, because I am neither a commuter to the city, nor a city resident anymore. I don't particularly agree with the commuter tax, although it really wouldn't affect me either way.
Eesh... I'd HATE to be dating Pataki's daughter..
Just imagine.. the breath-mint TAX.. then the
toothpick TAX.. then the sit-on-the-couch TAX..
the chaperone TAX (aint leavin' Home without 'im!)..
the parking space TAX.. and if you don't bring
her back in due time, the LATE RETURN TAX..
Ole!
You're wacky, but I love it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The MTA is providing you a SERVICE! You are paying to be TRANSPORTED somewhere. When in the city you are then using city resources like police, sanitation, subusdized roads and subway service, etc. Just like your local taxes help pay for your local services, including commuter rail subsudies. If you are spending 1/3 of your time using up city services then you should at least pay something.
The MTA is providing you a SERVICE! You are paying to be TRANSPORTED somewhere. When in the city you are then using city resources like police, sanitation, subusdized roads and subway service, etc. Just like your local taxes help pay for your local services, including commuter rail subsudies. If you are spending 1/3 of your time using up city services then you should at least pay something.
See what I posted elsewhere. Suburban commuters pay for their use of transit. While they make some use of certain other city services, they make little or no use of the costly ones such as schools, health care, and social services. Come to think of it, they are probably a terrific deal for the city - they pay taxes yet take very little in return.
"Suburban commuters pay for their use of transit. While they make some use of certain other city services, they make little or no use of the costly ones such as schools, health care, and social services. Come to think of it, they are probably a terrific deal for the city - they pay taxes yet take very little in return."
Thank you, Peter!! At least somebody understands what I am saying!! :-) -Nick
Suburban commuters pay for their use of transit. While they make some use of certain other city services, they make little or no use of the costly ones such as schools, health care, and social services. Come to think of it, they are probably a terrific deal for the city - they pay taxes yet take very little in return.
Thank you, Peter!! At least somebody understands what I am saying!! :-) -Nick
You're quite welcome. The way things are going, I think you and Larry are the only ones who get my point. Actually, I suspect other people known deep down that it's true, but are afraid to admit the truth.
OMG! I agree with Jersey Mike, a biblical sign that the world is about to end......8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Jersey Mike, I DO pay for a service, and I pay a hell of a lot more than other major cities!!!!!! -Nick
Jersey Mike, I DO pay for a service, and I pay a hell of a lot more than other major cities!!!!!!
What can I say, filet mignon costs more than ground chuck.
In 1832...Public transportation arrives when the first streetcar begins running from Prince Street to 14th Street.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now THERE'S something to celebrate! And now they're coming back, renamed to "light rail" so as to fool the unsuspecting. :)
One or two horse power ?
Watch where you step !
Hey, hey hey hey HAY! :)
I heard Branford has a horsecar or two ... they're LOVELY (even if inappropriate for all but the Central Park vicinity) ... that's "fresh country scent" yer talking about ... BOY ... Light rail is light rail. Get over it. Heh.
Moo. Or should I say, Neeeii-iiii-iigh:)
As long as you've got your nickel, I could care. :)
In this day and age of massive layoffs on Wall Street, to now impose a huge commuter tax on non-city residents is an obscene idea.
True, I live in the suburbs but I still put plenty of money in the city's coffers every day. Since I work late hours I shop exclusively at Manhattan stores for clothes and other items during the day and buy my meals there. I also invest money in the company I work for, which is has its world headquarters in lower Manhattan. Because there is no LIRR service to lower Manhattan, I have to pay double fares to the MTA every month in the forms of an LIRR ticket and NYCT Metrocard. My travel costs per year just to and from work exceeds $2,300.
And now Bloomberg wants us to shell out even more on top of all that? Maybe I'll just sell my house and move back to a rental apartment in Queens, where I lived until 2000. This way, my wallet will be relieved from paying Mayor Mike's commuter tax AND real estate tax.
Now I know that Bloomy thinks I'm loaded because I live in Cedarhurst but believe me, I'm not. Nassau County just socked me with a 27% raise in my real estate tax, which in turn has pushed my mortgage payments up.
Maybe Nassau County should tax NYC residents who work in Nassau. I know of many Far Rockaway residents who work at Nassau County hospitals and use MSBA buses to get there. Maybe they should be taxed as well!
It is an obscenity. And it's not as if all commuters would be equally burdened. New Jersey and Connecticut residents will get increased credits against their own states' income taxes. Commuters from elsewhere in New York State, like me, will be the losers. I really had thought that Bloomberg was an asture businessman who give NYC the sort of financial discipline that it desperately needs. Christ, was I ever wrong.
Actually, what NYC really needs is a huge shock to the system, something that'll make 9/11 look like a peaceful summer morning. One thing that would work nicely is an annoucement by a big corporate employer, say Citibank, Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley, that it's disgusted with the city's drunken-sailor financial managment and therefore is packing up and moving, lock, stock and barrel. Or better yet, several such employers. With modern telecommunications, there's no real reason why Citibank can't operate out of Atlanta, say, or Merrill Lynch in Dallas. Maybe then, with the resulting huge job losses, Bloomberg the Mongoloid would finally come to his senses.
We're in upstate New York ... and EVEN IF our business runs on a 33k DIALUP (servers are in MINNESOTA where DSL and T1's are available) we could be in TAHITI for all the world cares ...
But hey, these are REPUBLICAN times and the INTERNET IS DEAD ... if there ain't OIL in your conference room, then you don't exist. :(
We're in upstate New York ... and EVEN IF our business runs on a 33k DIALUP (servers are in MINNESOTA where DSL and T1's are available) we could be in TAHITI for all the world cares ...
You'd probably be better off, DSL will be available in Tahiti before it will be available upstate.
...there is a problem with moving your office to the middle of the sticks: finding good employees.
the big ugly company i used to work for merged with one that had an office in chicago, and an office in the middle of nebraska. needless to say, the brains of that operation were in chicago...
...there is a problem with moving your office to the middle of the sticks: finding good employees.
the big ugly company i used to work for merged with one that had an office in chicago, and an office in the middle of nebraska. needless to say, the brains of that operation were in chicago...
Point taken, but I'd say that the problem is not as severe as you might think. First of all, if a major New York employer such as Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley were to relocate to a more congenial location, many of its employees would follow their jobs to the new location. Sure, some would be tied down by family obligations, or are just too emotionally attached to the city, but I suspect we'd all be surprised at the percentage who'd be willing to move. Generally speaking, the weaker the job market, the greater the percentage of workers who'll relocate.
New York also has no monopoly on skilled educated workers. Yes, there's a big concentration of "brain power" here, but it is a grotesque New York Times-perpetrated fiction that most people in the Great Flyover are hillbillies with three teeth who marry their 12-year-old first cousins. Believe me, there are skilled, well-educated people available in most parts of the country, and I suspect most of them have a better work ethic than the typical looking-for-an-angle New Yorker. Speaking of which, let's not forget that New York's educational system leaves a lot to be desired.
Finding enough workers could be a problem if a major New York company were to move to a remote rural location. But that's not likely to happen - what we'd probably see instead is a move to a dynamic Sunbelt metro area such as Charlotte, Atlanta, Dallas, Denver or Phoenix. Labor availability isn't likely to be a huge issue in a place like that.
>>>>New York's educational system leaves a lot to be desired.<<<<
Don't you mean, New Yorks PUBLIC educational system?
Peace,
ANDEE
New York's educational system leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't you mean, New Yorks PUBLIC educational system?
Yes of course. It's the public system that really counts.
I suspect most of them have a better work ethic than the typical looking-for-an-angle New Yorker.
You mean those farmers who are getting government subsidies not to grow crops on their farms? :-)
Oooooo ... there's a nasty one. Your farm has to be *BIG* enough to get paid not to grow things, so unless you're CocaCola, ADM, or a megaconglomerate, you get bupkis these days. I say eliminate ALL price supports as corporate welfare and turn that money over to the few small family farmers left so they don't have to subdivide and build ANOTHER suburb out in the middle of nowhere that then in turn goes for block grants because nobody lives there. :(
ConAgra does NOT need more money.
...there is a problem with moving your office to the middle of the sticks: finding good employees.
NOT! A large NYC travel agency does much of its work in rural North Dakota... Much more RELIABLE employees willing to work at a REASONABLE wage.
Elias
...there is a problem with moving your office to the middle of the sticks: finding good employees.
NOT! A large NYC travel agency does much of its work in rural North Dakota... Much more RELIABLE employees willing to work at a REASONABLE wage.
I suspect we'll be seeing a lot more of these arrangements. Take THAT, Bloomie Boy!
Sorry to throw this, but your taxes are NOTHING compared to what you're about to pay once the STATE kicks in. After all, Joe Bruno needs MORE monuments, and he and his buddy John Sweeney (aren't you GLAD the election's over so you can't do CHIT now?) are about to soak you for a BRAND NEW TRAIN STATION in SARATOGA? After all, Saratoga is home to the rich, guess who pays? NOT Saratoga ... no sir.
Find the queen, find the queen, find the queen ... WARNED yas ...
Perhaps, but at least that's not a NEW tax. Its a raise in an existing tax, which is inevitable in any event.
Additionally, at least suburban residents can affect the futures of some State politicians at the ballot box every few years. I cannot do a thing about Bloomberg or Shelly Silver.
Hate to put it this way, but Shelley *ISN'T* the problem, at least as far as "downstate" goes ... like Hillary for those of us UPSTATE, he's the ONLY representative you folks HAVE ... alas, New York City (and much of upstate) re-elected the PATURKEY ... *HE* sold us all out. H Carl McCall owed NOBODY, but alas, he be a nigger, I guess I understand WHY he didn't get elected, even if he's a TRUE economist and actully had a clue. Ah well, enjoy your Paturkey dinner ... many won't see a feast this large for YEARS. The people have spoken, and they coted like MORONS. Too late now. :(
So ... how about them TAXES? Huh? Aren't you GLAD you voted republican NOW? Sea Beach local N Train to 59 Street, 59 Street, everybody off! Change for the R to Manhattan ... Moo. :)
"but alas, he be a nigger, I guess I understand WHY he didn't get elected"
WOAH...I think you crossed the line here, and I'm not even an African American. -Nick
Rather than fight the commuter tax, I'd encourage the mayors of Jersey City and Hoboken to institute their own out-of-state-commuter tax at the same rate on all those new office workers on the waterfront.. lets see who backs down first.
Rather than fight the commuter tax, I'd encourage the mayors of Jersey City and Hoboken to institute their own out-of-state-commuter tax at the same rate on all those new office workers on the waterfront.. lets see who backs down first.
That's an excellent idea!
Dave, GOOD point! Seriously. I have to agree that the "commuter tax" is completely unfair and destructive. INSTEAD, municipalities should re-enact the PAYROLL TAX ... If you make money in the city, you should pay PAYROLL taxes on the income. That settles ALL of the issues for "out of towners," equalizes the penalties and ensures that taxes on both state lines are equitable base on WHERE you make your income. I'm not trying to be a wiseass here, but WHERE you earn your "largesse" is taxed should be based on where you earn it.
Given the effort placed on "out of city" business, it's only fair based on WHERE that business is. It would sure equalize the realities all around ... with businesses these days being able to locate ANYWHERE, and the options to employees being pretty much equal, that'd be a much more logical way of locality fundraising ... seriously. And yeah, I'm a 'business' so it makes absolute sense to me for what it's worth.
Pity people voted on the republican lie ... we might have had an economy now and all this wouldn't MATTER like it does now, AFTER the erections. :(
The problem with a payroll tax is that it is too easy to transfer income from category of salary and wages to capital gains.
YEP ... but it settles the other arguments ... after all, this is the EMPIRE STATE and as Leona Helmsley once so adequately stated, "ONLY THE LITTLE PEOPLE PAY TAXES" ... these are republican times after all, screw the poor ... and we won't pay for their teenage pregnancies EITHER. The salvation of the white race DEPENDS on them getting knocked up - watch the numbers in the next two years, aren't you GLAD you're a republican? Moo, I mean meow. :(
"we won't pay for their teenage pregnancies EITHER"
Right, because Bush re-vamped the sex ed program to teach abstinence only, so why should we? -Nick
NJ tried that already in the early 80s. Thrown out by the courts. Can't tax the commuters more than your own residents.
Hey...Mike lives in his own $4.8 billion dollar world. What does he care about real people who work real jobs and scrape to get by? Heck, the reason I lived in the suburbs and commuted into the city (to work for Bloomberg) in the first place was to keep my expenses down.
Let's approach this from a different perspective. Why did our ancestors fight the American Revolution? Can anyone say "taxation without representation?" The commuter tax is the same thing. Name me one commuter from outside the city who has representation in the NYC government? Do commuters elect city officials? No. Then commuters, who lack representation, should not have to pay taxes. It's that simple.
Question ... Did you VOTE? 60% DIDN'T ... you got what you VOTED for. No personal offense intended ...
I didn't vote for a commuter tax.
Settle down, everybody -- any commuter tax has to be approved by the state legislature and governor, so the idea that this would amount to taxation without representation is just wrong. And, for the record, the neighboring states ALREADY have commuter taxes (although, to be fair, not the localities).
That having been said, I have to say that I'm growing more and more heartsick as I watch this year's budget battles unfold. This is a massive crisis -- I'd say it's worse than the 70s, just because the state is also a basket case. The only way to get through this is collective action and shared sacrifice. Cuts everywhere. Taxes everywhere (don't forget -- Bloomberg is talking about a 25% property-tax hike for his own constituents). And then we pray for a miracle -- that the GOP can restore the national economy and we can grow out of the austerity program.
Instead, we have Pat Lynch buying radio ads with his gravelly, threatening voice claiming that the city will descend back into lawlessness if a single cop is laid off.
We have Acorn, the guys who sponsored the pro-schools civil disobedience last year, threatening a lawsuit if a dollar is cut.
We have Tom Suozzi, one man who should be sympathetic to a municipal leader who inherits a massive budget gap, claiming that Bloomberg is telling the suburbs to "drop dead."
We saw it coming for the last 18 months, but what happened? We postponed the day of reckoning. We BORROWED money for a teachers' contract. We BORROWED money for an 1199 contract. We BORROWED money for environmental projects, then raided environmental funds for the state's operating budget.
Anybody see any similarities to our other local fiscal basketcase, Nassau County? I will submit that it's not a coincidence that the chief executives of all of these governmental units share a party affiliation (although, before you jump all over me, I'll say you can't absolve Silver of all responsibility).
To keep this region livable, we are going to need a massive increase in volunteerism. Neighborhood watches. Volunteer tutoring. Food banks. Cross your fingers.
Here are some things that are better than the 70s:
- A systematic approach to crime prevention that will allow far better results than in the 70s and 80s, even with fewer police than we have now.
- An understanding that deferred maintenance is a disaster, and it's better to cut service and raise fares than to defer maintenance.
- A basic optimism about the value of real estate in NYC, plus a fantastic rental and sales market for real estate, both of which are keeping unscrupulous landlords from torching their buildings.
We can live with dirtier streets and subways for a while. What we need to agitate for is that infrastructure maintenance continues, so that this is a 3-year crisis and not another 15-year crisis.
And those suburbanites with Republican congressional reps should be pressing them to support Federal aid to the NYC police for antiterrorism expenses. The nice safe suburbs aren't going to be any fun either if there's another major attack in NYC.
OK, you made me feel a little bit better. However...
I'm a little more skeptical about how deeply our leaders are committed to maintenance. I think we're going to see higher fares, less service, and less maintenance. There's also the fact that a lot of the infrastructure maintenance (not of rolling stock, but of physical plant) is still done as capital maintenance with borrowed money, which cannot be sustained forever.
Real estate nationwide is probably overvalued. Again, the national economy will dictate whether the current optimism can be maintained. If the economy can recover, or at least continue with its slow growth, we might avoid a crash. If not, the optimism will disappear again.
Bottom line: I agree with you that NYC is going to need significant Federal help. I, unfortunately, think the wallet is closed. The only thing the governor has proven himself willing to ask for is the VP nomination.
>>>...not another 15-year crisis. <<<
EXACTLY what it is.
Peace,
ANDEE
That having been said, I have to say that I'm growing more and more heartsick as I watch this year's budget battles unfold. This is a massive crisis -- I'd say it's worse than the 70s, just because the state is also a basket case. The only way to get through this is collective action and shared sacrifice. Cuts everywhere. Taxes everywhere (don't forget -- Bloomberg is talking about a 25% property-tax hike for his own constituents). And then we pray for a miracle -- that the GOP can restore the national economy and we can grow out of the austerity program.
It's not a real problem at all. All the city and state have to do is cut Medicaid funding levels back to nationwide averages and their financial problems will be much less serious. Medicaid is just a money pit, as far as I'm concerned most Medicaid funding is equivalent to flushing cash down the donicker. I mean, NYC spends more on Medicaid than the entire state of California, with more than four times the population. And the streets of the Golden State are not filled with the rotting corpses of poor people who have died from lack of health care.
RE: California, How do you explain tax cheats like SALAMM ALLAH?
Peace,
ANDEE
I mean, NYC spends more on Medicaid than the entire state of California, with more than four times the population. And the streets of the Golden State are not filled with the rotting corpses of poor people who have died from lack of health care.
Most NYS&NYC Medicaid funds go to the elderly for nursing home care. NYS law permits the elderly to impoverish themselves by giving their assets away to their children and going on welfare. It's not the poor of Harlem; it's the suburban middle class who are Medicaid's beneficiaries.
Other states require children to support their parents in such circumstances. NYS does not. George Pataki's father was confined to a nursing home at taxpayer expense. At the same time his father was able to deed over the family farm, valued at $1 million, into George's name. Cuomo's mother also was confined to a nursing home before her death. She also became a Medicaid recipient, after her net worth of $200K was exhausted (about 2 years worth of nursing home care).
Just which party is in favor of family values? :-)
I mean, NYC spends more on Medicaid than the entire state of California, with more than four times the population. And the streets of the Golden State are not filled with the rotting corpses of poor people who have died from lack of health care.
Most NYS&NYC Medicaid funds go to the elderly for nursing home care. NYS law permits the elderly to impoverish themselves by giving their assets away to their children and going on welfare. It's not the poor of Harlem; it's the suburban middle class who are Medicaid's beneficiaries.
Other states require children to support their parents in such circumstances. NYS does not. George Pataki's father was confined to a nursing home at taxpayer expense. At the same time his father was able to deed over the family farm, valued at $1 million, into George's name. Cuomo's mother also was confined to a nursing home before her death. She also became a Medicaid recipient, after her net worth of $200K was exhausted (about 2 years worth of nursing home care).
I know of no state that requires children to support their parents in nursing homes. Such a requirement would, indeed, be absurd. What states require - and I would imagine that New York is no different, as Medicaid is of course a federal program - is that nursing home residents exhaust their resources before becoming eligible to go on Medicaid. To help avoid evasion of that requirement, any assets transferred to a resident's children (or anyone else except a spouse) within X years of Medicaid application are subject to a state lien for Medicaid services. I believe this X is two years, but don't quote me on that. In other words, elderly people in New York and anywhere else can "impoverish" themselves via property transfers in order to qualify for Medicaid, they just have to wait a while.
None of this explains why New York's Medicaid spending is at such obscene levels.
require children to support their parents in nursing homes. Such a requirement would, indeed, be absurd.
Do you feel the concept of filial responsibility no longer applicable in modern society? Or do you not believe that some states still require it.
My mother was dignosed with probable Alzheimers about 5 1/2 years ago. I discussed the problems of getting her institutionalized and other care options with representatives from the Alzheimers Association. They informed me that CT did require children to help support a partent's nursing home stay. Their reaction was how lucky I was to be in NY, where this was not the case. (Mom died about 4 1/2 years ago and was never institutionalized).
None of this explains why New York's Medicaid spending is at such obscene levels.
I'd start by looking at where the money is going. The NY Times printed such a survey about a dozen years ago. The majority of the money was going for custodial care. As a member of the middle class, I can only quote Pogo: "we have seen the enemy and he is us".
(None of this explains why New York's Medicaid spending is at such obscene levels.---I'd start by looking at where the money is going.)
Thanks to a bit of work I did about 20 months ago, you can find out EXACTLY where it is, or rather was, going. Check out this comprehensive tabulation at NYU's Taub Urban Research Center.
http://urban.nyu.edu/research/littlefield/index.html
I believe the section in question is chapter 3. Dont' just be satisfied with the charts -- download the spreadsheets.
(The majority of the money was going for custodial care. As a member of the middle class, I can only quote Pogo: "we have seen the enemy
and he is us".)
Funny how hostility toward "big government" has abated now that they've cut funding for the poor, especially the minority and immigrant poor, and those living in cities. As a matter of fact, the level of farm subsidies is now double the level of cash welfare spending. As for the elderly, in 1990 70 percent of NYC resisdents over age 65 were White, and 70 percent of those under age 18 were not. Hence the "wasteful" NYC schools, and no complaints about Medicaid.
require children to support their parents in nursing homes. Such a requirement would, indeed, be absurd.
Do you feel the concept of filial responsibility no longer applicable in modern society? Or do you not believe that some states still require it.
I'm not talking about any moral responsibility, strictly the legal ones that may exist.
My mother was dignosed with probable Alzheimers about 5 1/2 years ago. I discussed the problems of getting her institutionalized and other care options with representatives from the Alzheimers Association. They informed me that CT did require children to help support a partent's nursing home stay. Their reaction was how lucky I was to be in NY, where this was not the case. (Mom died about 4 1/2 years ago and was never institutionalized).
Well I am quite familiar with Connecticut, having lived there until five years ago. Children would be required to support a parent's nursing home stay only if they had received property transfers from the parent within two or three years of the parent's entry into the nursing home. Even then, financial responsibility would be limited to the value of the transferred assets.
>>> Do you feel the concept of filial responsibility no longer applicable in modern society? <<<
Absolutely. A child cannot pick its parents. Your suggestion that children should be responsible for their parents looks great in the Norman Rockwell world where parents and children have remained close and the children have been going to the parents' home for Thanksgiving dinner for 30 years. But why should the child who was abused during childhood, left at age 18 and never had contact with his parents from that time on be forced to support those parents later on in life? This is particularly true if the parents were irresponsible and never saved for their later years.
On a more practical societal level, with the trend toward small families, with only one or two children, requiring children to support their parents would impoverish the next generation at the time when it was about to send its children to college, reducing generational social and economic mobility.
The real answer is universal health care, paid by all through taxes.
Tom
"Other states require children to support their parents in such circumstances. NYS does not. George Pataki's father was confined to a nursing home at taxpayer expense. At the same time his father was able to deed over the family farm, valued at $1 million, into George's name."
That statement could theoretically get you a heap of trouble, because it inadvertantly accuses Pataki of criminal conduct (which I am sure is not what you meant). Pataki claims that his father deeded the family farm over to his children several years BEFORE he entered the nursing home.
I believe both the "lookback" and "spenddown" periods are roughly 3 years. Any money you have given away in the three years before you enter a nursing home is part of your "assets" for Medicaid eligibility purposes. Further, you must pay for the first 3 years of nursing home care out of your assets if you have them. Then Medicaid covers it. Finally, the average nursing home stay is about 3 years, so it's not as though this is a huge subsidy for the middle class.
That statement could theoretically get you a heap of trouble, because it inadvertantly accuses Pataki of criminal conduct (which I am sure is not what you meant).
Thank you for reminding me. I'd have thought that statements regarding elected officials are almost immune from libel or slander prosecution. I certainly did not intend to imply that Pataki committed a criminal act. I believe that the transfer and the Mr Pataki's father's entrance into a nursing home took place before the present 3 year lookback and spenddown law was enacted. The press never investigated the story, when it surfaced 8 years ago. The Democrats did not press the issue because Cuomo was also vulnerable on this point. It is ceratinly noteworthy that there need be no stigma for a sitting governor's parent being on welfare.
The base yearly stay in a NYS nursing home was in excess of $80K, when I priced it five years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if that average 3 year nursing home stay would be close to $500K today. The surveys I've read show that this is where the Medicaid money goes. The people who are subsidized are the nursing home operators who receive state Medicaid reimbursiments and the relatives of the Medicaid "clients" who don't have to support them.
Let me try to return to the subject. Medicaid is a state program. The eligibility requirements are the same statewide. It is not a NYC program. NYC does not have any discretion as to what it it can spend or deny. To blame NYC current fiscal problems on NYC's Medicaid extravagance, as Mr. Rosa implied, is intellectually dishonest.
Let me try to return to the subject. Medicaid is a state program. The eligibility requirements are the same statewide. It is not a NYC program. NYC does not have any discretion as to what it it can spend or deny. To blame NYC current fiscal problems on NYC's Medicaid extravagance, as Mr. Rosa implied, is intellectually dishonest.
Yes, but voters in what city elect many of the state legislators in Albany who impose these absurd Medicaid spending requirements on NYC? Fishs Eddy? Tupper Lake? Chittenango?
"I believe that the transfer and the Mr Pataki's father's entrance into a nursing home took place before the present 3 year lookback and spenddown law was enacted. The press never investigated the story, when it surfaced 8 years ago."
My memory is that the press raised questions because the deed wasn't filed with the County Clerk until long after the date placed on the deed. This raised the question of whether the deed had been backdated, which if true would have been a serious act. So unless I have it all wrong, the lookback provision was already there at the time.
>>>Did you VOTE? 60% DIDN'T<<<
That's just plain NAUSEATING. BTW, I did vote.
Peace,
ANDEE
GLAD to see SOMEBODY gave a qwap. Then there's all those whiners who DIDN'T ... My sympathy bone for their plight is Gingrich-sized ... a/k/a, where's my got-dam viagra to get it up for the party? :)
H. CARL was my man. At least I'm glad that MOST of city (even Queens!) went that way.
Congrats to the Working Family party, too!
Peace,
ANDEE
H Carl missed taking Albany COUNTY by 100 votes, he beat the hell out of Pataki in the CITY of Albany though. And this despite Mayor Jennings crossing lines and endorsing Pataki. Since the vote didn't come through though, it's a safe bet Jennings is done down there. I'm just hoping McCall will stick around up here after he's finished transitioning the Comptroller's office. I'm *relieved* that Faso, my former assemblyhole didn't win. We would have been in a WORLD of hurt had he won.
>>>I'm *relieved* that Faso, my former assemblyhole didn't win<<
It always seems that Paturkeys coattails are non-existent, thank God.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also note that there are people who are not allowed to vote.
Foreigners
Convicted felons
Even certain US Citizens who have committed no crime except for having failed to travel 10,518,052,202 miles around the sun.
"Can anyone say "taxation without representation?""
Excellent point. One thing, though. Can you explain how this currently works in practice? How do you avoid paying the sales tax when you buy something in person in another state? How does an owner of property in two juridictions avoid paying property tax on one of the parcels?
Excellent point. One thing, though. Can you explain how this currently works in practice? How do you avoid paying the sales tax when you buy something in person in another state? How does an owner of property in two juridictions avoid paying property tax on one of the parcels?
Here's another:
Why do people in the District of Columbia pay federal taxes?
Good point!
The folks in DC have a lot to complain about!
:-) Andrew
The theory is that living in the seat of power would be an unfair advantage as the government would tend to keep its home away from home nice and clean. Although folks in DC don't vote for canidates, they can physically confront any and all of our elected officials and thus influence them. To offset this advantage they don't get a vote.
Basically instead of expressing your political power with your vote, you can yell at any old senator when you run into him at the Stop and Shop.
I think its a pretty fair trade off.
Consider that the WMATA was getting a gauranteed $200 million a year from the feds while other subways in the US got much less and even that wasn't consistant.
WMATA serves the Maryland and Virginia commuters, and there are probably more of them than residents in DC working in DC.
Each time I was in DC, there were more MD and VA license plates than DC plates. There were more US Government plates than DC plates.
Each time I was in DC, there were more MD and VA license plates than DC plates.
You were in the tourist neighborhoods mostly, I presume... I've done a fair amount of travelling in non-tourist neighborhoods over the past couple of years, what with my daughter living in Silver Spring, and the balance is quite different there. Even in the main downtown area the DC plates outnumber the out-of-District plates on the weekends.
There were more US Government plates than DC plates.
Actually, I've seen very few Government plates in the District. They're mostly in Northern Virginia and outside the Beltway in Maryland, where the main military operations are.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do you avoid paying the sales tax when you buy something in person in another state?
Sales taxes are imposed based on location of sale. The buyer's address is irrelevant, with some exceptions for motor vehicles.
Sales taxes are imposed based on location of sale. The buyer's address is irrelevant, with some exceptions for motor vehicles.
That is not true. Sales taxes are based on where the purchaser lives. However, the seller is obligated only to collect such taxes to the state in which he does business. So, if a sale is made in one state and the goods are delivered to another state, without the purchaser taking possession of them, the seller need not collect any sales tax. It is the buyer's obligation to inform his own state's tax bureau of the purchase and to pay any sales tax. This has led to much tax avoidance on the part of both buyers and sellers.
You may recall several instances of fraud. Jewelry dealers in NYC were discovered to have recorded sales to New Jersey residents and to have shipped the items to New Jersey addresses. The problem was that the customers were New York residents and empty boxes were shipped. In another case the Ikea parking lot in Jersey City was staked out by NY State tax agents. NYS license plates were recorded and surprised NYS residents got letters from NYS demanding sales tax payment.
The automobile provides a fairly simple way to enforce the law because all cars must be registered. That's when the tax man can say pay up. It does not represent an exception.
Sales taxes are imposed based on location of sale. The buyer's address is irrelevant, with some exceptions for motor vehicles.
That is not true. Sales taxes are based on where the purchaser lives. However, the seller is obligated only to collect such taxes to the state in which he does business. So, if a sale is made in one state and the goods are delivered to another state, without the purchaser taking possession of them, the seller need not collect any sales tax. It is the buyer's obligation to inform his own state's tax bureau of the purchase and to pay any sales tax. This has led to much tax avoidance on the part of both buyers and sellers.
The original question had asked about in-person sales, in which case the buyer's location is not relevant. Mail-order and internet sales are a whole different kettle of fish.
The original question had asked about in-person sales, in which case the buyer's location is not relevant.
For in-person sales the buyer's "location" is the store and is not relevant. However, the buyer's residence is relevant. Both the examples of tax evasion that I cited were for in-person sales.
Mail-order and internet sales are a whole different kettle of fish.
There is no distinction between mail order and internet sales vs. in-person sales. The same rules apply. BTW, the federal exemption on sales taxes for internet purchases expired about a year ago.
The presumption that stores must make is that in-person sales are for buyers residing within the same jurisdiction. Usually the amount of sales tax on each purchase is insignificant compared to the paper work involved not to collect the sales tax. Residence information is required for mail order/internet sales, so the paperwork mechanism is already present.
However, the sales tax collected for big ticket items is not insignificant. Therefore, such stores will provide mechanisms not to collect sales tax on in-person customers who reside outside the jurisdiction. The Jersey City Ikea case was noteworthy because Ikea placed advertisements in NY newspapers that NYS residents would not be charged sales tax. Those ads precipitated the NYS gumshoes staking out the Ikea parking lot. :-)
However, the sales tax collected for big ticket items is not insignificant. Therefore, such stores will provide mechanisms not to collect sales tax on in-person customers who reside outside the jurisdiction. The Jersey City Ikea case was noteworthy because Ikea placed advertisements in NY newspapers that NYS residents would not be charged sales tax. Those ads precipitated the NYS gumshoes staking out the Ikea parking lot. :-)
The states are actually trying to cooperate with respect to sales-tax collection, particularly with respect to mail-order and Internet sales. 32 states recently entered into an agreement that eventually may allow them to require so-called "remote" sellers to collect a buyer's home-state sales tax on a mail-order or Internet sale. Whether this actually will become reality is another matter, mainly because state sales tax schemes differ considerably.
>>> Whether this actually will become reality is another matter, mainly because state sales tax schemes differ considerably. <<<
This was always the excuse given when sales were written up by hand with a clerk checking a table to see how much tax to add to each sale. With computers there is no problem with calculating the amount to be collected by punching in a state code with the sale. The same software would tell the seller how much to remit to each state at the end of a month or quarter.
Tom
The same software would tell the seller how much to remit to each state at the end of a month or quarter.
But the seller might not be authorized to collect sales tax in each of the 50 states.
This was always the excuse given when sales were written up by hand with a clerk checking a table to see how much tax to add to each sale. With computers there is no problem with calculating the amount to be collected by punching in a state code with the sale. The same software would tell the seller how much to remit to each state at the end of a month or quarter.
States also disagree as to what's taxable and what's exempt. For example, clothing is fully taxable in some states, taxable up to certain dollar amounts in other states, and fully exempt in still others.
>>> States also disagree as to what's taxable and what's exempt. For example, clothing is fully taxable in some states, taxable up to certain dollar amounts in other states, and fully exempt in still others <<<
An added difficulty, but those too could be programed in, possibly using product bar codes, so that interstate collection would be just as simple as collection within the home state. The real opposition is by the mail order and internet sellers who are able to offset the cost of shipping by not charging sales tax.
Tom
The real opposition is by the mail order and internet sellers who are able to offset the cost of shipping by not charging sales tax.
That's absolutely true. Which isn't to say that I have much sympathy for them. Mail-order and Internet sellers are excused for collecting sales taxes only by virtue of a 1992 Supreme Court decision, the logic behind which has been much disputed (the decision focused on the concept of "physical presence" in a state, a concept which has been losing much of its validity). If the Streamlined Sales Tax Project ever reaches its goals of increasing uniformity among the various state sales tax systems, this exemption for mail-order and Internet sellers may be able to be aboolished without violating the Supreme Court's edict. As I noted earlier, however, it's an open question as to whether enough states will go along.
"Sales taxes are imposed based on location of sale. The buyer's address is irrelevant, with some exceptions for motor vehicles."
My question was a rhetorical one in response to the claim that taxation without representation was improper.
Hey...Mike lives in his own $4.8 billion dollar world. What does he care about real people who work real jobs and scrape to get by? Heck, the reason I lived in the suburbs and commuted into the city (to work for Bloomberg) in the first place was to keep my expenses down.
So you are basically admitting to being a leach off of the city. Cities cost money to run. You 9 to 5ers SWELL the population 2 or 3 times and cause massive congestion. You then tromp back home to avoid all the negitives of city live while enjoying all the positives. You want a nice clean, well run city with lo crime and nice eating an entertainment establishments. Well whrn city services break down the city quickly becomes crime ridden, dirty with faled bussinesses everywhere. You want you nice little 9 to 5 world with its cafe' and subways and Lincoln Centers, but you don't want to pay for it. Well SOMEBODY has to pay for it because such a world dosen't take fix itself. By recieving enjoyment without paying for it you are effectivly STEALING from the city. You have no right to complain when they find a way to make you pay up.
Cities cost money to run. You 9 to 5ers SWELL the population 2 or 3 times and cause massive congestion. You then tromp back home to avoid all the negitives of city live while enjoying all the positives. You want a nice clean, well run city with lo crime and nice eating an entertainment establishments. Well whrn city services break down the city quickly becomes crime ridden, dirty with faled bussinesses everywhere.
Don't be ridiculous. Suburban commuters are a terrific deal for the city - they pay taxes, spend money, yet place hardly any demands on city services.
commuter tax is the same thing. Name me one commuter from outside the city who has representation in the NYC government? Do commuters elect city officials? No. Then commuters, who lack representation, should not have to pay taxes. It's that simple.
Nobody is FORCING you to commute. If you don't like it then WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE. The Incorporated New York City represents the will of its citizens. If they feel that outsiders should pay a tax to work in their city then it is their choice, not yours. Your choice is to work in the city or not. Not being a voting resident of some place does NOT give you a FREE PASS to come on over and ignore locally imposed rules.
Its funny how u can be taught one thing and not remember, only to have that thing pop up in the near future. If the commuter tax isn't one of em then I don't know what is. I learned about how the british was taxing the 13 colonies only for British purposes, which is calld "taxation without representation". The commuter tax is a damn good example of taxation without representation. The only service that the "out of towners" use that is provided by the City Of NewYork is the LIRR and MNRR. Plus the whole commuter tax idea is a load of bullshit. Why should someone who lives in Hempstead pay money for the good of another city, on top of state, local and federal tax.
Good point. Congress has acted, but only for one group of us -- employees of interestate railroads and airlines. Those folks can be taxed ONLY where they live, not where they work.
"Why should someone who lives in Hempstead pay money for the good of another city, on top of state, local and federal tax."
Exactly. This is why hopefully the State will not pass the Commuter Tax. Heck, if you need money, raise the Subway fares, or layoff State Workers (which CT is about to do itself). At least with subway fares, EVERYONE that uses them (both commuters and residents) must pay. -Nick
I agree with you that a commuter tax would be unconstitutional. Where I am in Westchester County the only service provided by the City of New York is the MNRR. Some of our sales tax goes towards it. The commuters perhaps pay for the greatest share of the MNRRs revenue. Now they want to put a tax on those who live in Westchester County and the other suburbs for that matter to put into their coffers so that the politcians can squander even more money. FIE ON THEM!!
#3 West End Jeff
Where I am in Westchester County the only service provided by the City of New York is the MNRR.
I believe the NYC supplies water to Westchester County residents.
>>I believe the NYC supplies water to Westchester County residents.<<
Its visa versa. All of New York City's water comes from resivoirs in Westchester. And this part of the Hudson and East river is undrinkable water.
The resevoir property is on land owned by New York City. The land was purchased in the early 19th century.
New York City has uses 4 water systems. In addition to the Croton System in Westchester there are also the Catskill, Delaware and Hudson systems.
The Hudson and East Rivers are too salty for drinking purposes in Westchester and near the City. The Hudson River system takes in water at Beacon, which is 60 miles north of the City and 2 counties above Westchester.
NYC supplies Westchester water as part of the 19th century agreement. Both NYC and Westchester have outgrown the Croton system. Much of that supplied water comes from the Catskill and Delaware systems.
The tax wouldn't apply to you if you lived and worked in Westchester. it only would apply if you lived in Westchester and worked in NYC, on the theory that while you're working all day you are using some city services (police, fire, water,...) that you wouldn't otherwise be paying for. The .25% sales tax surcharge and the MNRR fare go just to the MTA, no one else.
Keep in mind, if you lived in Westchester and worked in NJ or CT, you'd have to file non-resident income taxes for NJ/CT in addition to resident taxes for NY. Bloomberg's idea is to treat the NYC income tax the same way states' income taxes work for non-residents. It's not so unreasonable, but then again I'm a NYC resident-- if NYC relies solely on a big city property tax hike it's time for me to move to the suburbs.
Can politicians find any other ways to tax us to death. My answer is YES!!
#3 West End Jeff
If it's unconstitutional, better let the District of Columbia because they've been taxing commuters who live in Maryland & Virginia yet work in the District for several years.
Actually a number of cities nationwide have non-resident ("commuter") income taxes. And most states with state income taxes also tax non-residents who work there. It's not at all an unusual setup.
The proposition that a commuter tax is unconstitutional reveals a complete ignorance of recent history and this area of law. NYC had a commuter tax until just a few years ago, when it was stupidly abandoned in a fit of political gamemanship by the democratic leadership in Albany. The tax had been litigated and upheld. There is no reason to think that it would not withstand judicial scrutiny if it is reinacted.
In that case, can you answer this question
Prior to the destruction of the old commuter tax, how did it benefit "out of towners" who just happen to work in New York City?
I.E what did the old commuter tax pay for?
I believe that the old tax simply went into NYC's general fund. The constitutional issue does not turn on what NYC did with the money, but on the City's sovereign authority to impose a tax. The courts have upheld the City's right to tax earnings derived within the city, regardless of the residence of the earner.
[The only service that the "out of towners" use that is provided by the City Of New York is the LIRR and MNRR.]
Umm... Hel-LO!! Tow things here:
1. Every SubTalker, including SciGuy, knows full well that both LIRR and MNRR are operating agencies of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York; i.e. they're STATE agencies, not city agencies.
2. Out-of-towners benefit from police, fire, sanitation, and other municipal services while they're in town, and thus should pay something for those services. PLUS, the suburbs get extra protection from NYC cops (whose union doesn't want them to live in the five boroughs). Either that, or make them wait for their own local sheriffs when they get mugged.
["Out-of-towners benefit from police, fire, sanitation, and other municipal services while they're in town..."]
By that reasoning everybody should pay a tax to any municipality thay visit when they leave their own county!
"By that reasoning everybody should pay a tax to any municipality thay visit when they leave their own county!"
They usually do, if the visit involves stopping off at a store, restaurant, or gas station. It's called sales tax.
[By that reasoning everybody should pay a tax to any municipality thay visit when they leave their own county!]
Yup. Bloomberg has even endorsed the principle (but not necessarily the reality) of reciprocal commuter taxes.
Also, nobody seems willing to admit that the N. Y. STATE commuter tax is still in effect, AND that the City of Yonkers was allowed to keep its commuter tax - based on a "home rule" argument, no less!
NOTE: I'm reposting this, in the hope that someboody actually ADDRESSES the issue rather than merely replying to it.
- - - - -
[The only service that the "out of towners" use that is provided by the City Of New York is the LIRR and MNRR.]
Umm... Hel-LO!! Two things here:
1. Every SubTalker, including SciGuy, knows full well that both LIRR and MNRR are operating agencies of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York; i.e. they're STATE agencies, not city agencies.
2. Out-of-towners benefit from police, fire, sanitation, and other municipal services while they're in town, and thus should pay something for those services. PLUS, the suburbs get extra protection from NYPD officers (whose union doesn't let them live in the five boroughs). Either that, or make them wait for their own local sheriffs when they get mugged.
I agree 100% with your post. Out of towners get NYC services. That doesn't mean they should pay 10 times the commuter tax they used to pay, but they should pay something.
>>2. Out-of-towners benefit from police, fire, sanitation, and other municipal services while they're in town, and thus should pay something for those services. PLUS, the suburbs get extra protection from NYPD officers (whose union doesn't let them live in the five boroughs). Either that, or make them wait for their own local sheriffs when they get mugged.<<
I see your point, but in that case shouldn't the city of New York pay for municipal services provided by the State and other counties? And another thing, shouldn't the city of New York be prepared for the potential consequences of the reinstatement of this tax?
As for the first one, I am aware of the mistake I made therefor I apologize.
[...shouldn't the city of New York pay for municipal services provided by the State and other counties?]
IT DOES!!! For as long as the State has existed, it's seen the City as nothing more than a cash cow. City residents have always subsidized the rest of the state (AND the nation), only to be trashed as a financial drain!
I forgot to add something. You did make a good point, and yes people should pay for a commuter tax. But not the amounts Bloomberg is talking about.
2. Out-of-towners benefit from police, fire, sanitation, and other municipal services while they're in town, and thus should pay something for those services. PLUS, the suburbs get extra protection from NYPD officers (whose union doesn't let them live in the five boroughs). Either that, or make them wait for their own local sheriffs when they get mugged.<<
I see your point, but in that case shouldn't the city of New York pay for municipal services provided by the State and other counties? And another thing, shouldn't the city of New York be prepared for the potential consequences of the reinstatement of this tax?
As for the first one, I am aware of the mistake I made therefor I apologize.
By THAT logic, everytime you go to another city, you should pay a visitor's tax when you get there, because you don't live there and you're breathing THEIR air that THEY paid for, not YOU. Hey, maybe the next time you have to go to the bathroom and walk into a restaurant and ask to use the bathroom you should pay them a "flush tax" for using the water, and the toilet paper.
Plus, next time someone's car breaks down and you give them a ride or let them use your phone, charge 'em, you paid for it, they didn't. Well, of course, a lot of people don't stop to help people because it'll cost them somehow and it's not their responsibility to help people
THAT'S what I think of you saying that an out-of-towner shouldn't get local services like police protection and sanitation.
Besides, as an American citizen who pays taxes to America, one should be able to go everywhere in America, why does it matter if you're not from there? So much for Americans standing together.
Unless your visitis extra short, you do. THere's a room tax on hotels, there's the sales tax...
SOmeone working in the city makes use of much more in the way of city services than someone on a vacation. A commuter will be in NYC approximately 300 days a year, for 8-10 hours a day. During that time frame, anything they need in the way of municipal services is provided by the City of New York.
Look at it the same way you like to look at and criticize the road use tax.
-Hank
A commuter will be in NYC approximately 300 days a year, for 8-10 hours a day. During that time frame, anything they need in the way of municipal services is provided by the City of New York.
More like 230 days if you take out weekends, holidays, vacation and sick time.
Agreed, and for those services we pay taxes to the State of New York, which in turn provides funding to the City. Additionally, during those "300" days, or how many days we are here, we put a lot of money into City-owned businesses, such as clothing stores and diners, which transfer some of these funds to the City by way of taxes. So while commuters may not pay the City directly, we sure as hell put money into the City economy.
In short: I already pay Federal tax, State tax, County tax and taxes for the local school board (District 15). My property taxes are probably twice as high as they would be had I still been living in Queens. Why in the world should I now have to pay NYC taxes too? Do YOU pay taxes to the Village of Cedarhurst or Nassau County?
Agreed, and for those services we pay taxes to the State of New York, which in turn provides funding to the City.
New York is a donor city to the state.
Additionally, during those "300" days, or how many days we are here, we put a lot of money into City-owned businesses, such as clothing stores and diners, which transfer some of these funds to the City by way of taxes.
And we residents put a lot more into those businesses. We don't make occasional purchases in the city; we make almost all of our purchases in the city. (Clothing stores and diners aren't generally city-owned. Clothing stores don't even collect sales tax on most items.)
So while commuters may not pay the City directly, we sure as hell put money into the City economy.
And you sure as hell also use city resources -- more than the dollar sales tax on your diner bill.
In short: I already pay Federal tax, State tax, County tax and taxes for the local school board (District 15). My property taxes are probably twice as high as they would be had I still been living in Queens. Why in the world should I now have to pay NYC taxes too?
Because you use city resources in addition to federal, state, county, and local (Cedarhurst) resources. Nobody's stopping you from moving back to Queens if that's what you'd prefer.
Do YOU pay taxes to the Village of Cedarhurst or Nassau County?
No, but I very rarely make use of Cedarhurst or Nassau services. If I got a job in Cedarhurst, I'd be glad to pay my share.
OK, but I do pay city tax, just like you, will I also get the chance to vote out Mr. Bloomberg if I so desire?
"OK, but I do pay city tax, just like you, will I also get the chance to vote out Mr. Bloomberg if I so desire?"
No more so than NYC residents get to vote on the local government in the places outside of NYC where they pay sales or income taxes. Lots of NYC residents pay a ton of NJ income tax (commuter tax!!!).
New York City doesn't pick up my garbage or police my neighborhood. Nassau County does and I pay taxes for that.
New York City doesn't educate my child. Nassau County does that and I pay taxes for that too.
New York City doesn't fix my sidewalk. New York City doesn't shovel my streets in the winter. New York City doesn't provide me with power, heat and light at home. Its true that it does during the day, but my employer pays that bill. Why should I? So the City can get paid twice?
New York City doesn't transport me to work every day. LIRR and Transit do, both State operated agencies, to which I pay taxes both in the forms of income tax and tolls.
New York City does not perform a SINGLE SERVICE for me that it does not already provide for its residents. On the other hand, if I am going to be charged for those services anyway, can I sue the City if I don't get those services? If I get mugged on Fulton Street, can I sue the police department? If not, why not? I'm paying for their services! If there is no power in my building, can I sue Con Ed?
Most of all, if Bloomberg, an elected official, is permitted to take money out of my pocket, do I get a corresponding right to vote against him in 2005? No?
"New York City doesn't pick up my garbage or police my neighborhood. Nassau County (i.e, my home jursidiction) does and I pay taxes for that."
Replace "New York City" with "New Jersey", and yourself with a NYC resident. The statements are all still true, and yet NYC residents who work in NJ pay large amounts of tax to NJ.
Is this fair? Maybe not. But it is common practice.
New York City doesn't pick up my garbage or police my neighborhood. Nassau County does and I pay taxes for that.
New York City picks up your garbage and polices the neighborhood where you work, and you don't pay taxes for that.
New York City doesn't educate my child. Nassau County does that and I pay taxes for that too.
New York City doesn't educate my child either.
New York City doesn't fix my sidewalk.
You don't use the sidewalks when you're in the city?
New York City doesn't shovel my streets in the winter.
You don't use the streets when you're in the city?
New York City doesn't provide me with power, heat and light at home.
New York City doesn't provide anyone with power, heat, or light, at home or at work.
Its true that it does during the day, but my employer pays that bill. Why should I? So the City can get paid twice?
The city doesn't get paid for those services since the city doesn't provide those services. A commuter tax wouldn't pay for them any more than the resident income tax doesn't pay for them.
New York City doesn't transport me to work every day. LIRR and Transit do, both State operated agencies, to which I pay taxes both in the forms of income tax and tolls.
LIRR and NYCT aren't city-operated for city residents either. Despite that, the city pays the MTA. And your commute is more highly subsidized than the averae city resident's.
New York City does not perform a SINGLE SERVICE for me that it does not already provide for its residents.
No, not if you don't bother looking at how much of each service the city provides. Manhattan has twice as many daytime occupants as nighttime occupants; you wouldn't appreciate it if the city only took the nighttime occupants into consideration when planning infrastructure.
On the other hand, if I am going to be charged for those services anyway, can I sue the City if I don't get those services? If I get mugged on Fulton Street, can I sue the police department? If not, why not? I'm paying for their services! If there is no power in my building, can I sue Con Ed?
Sue whoever you like. I doubt you'll win, and I doubt a city resident who sued would win. NYPD doesn't guarantee that you won't be mugged (neither does the Cedarhurst police department) and Con Ed doesn't guarantee power all times (neither does LIPA).
Most of all, if Bloomberg, an elected official, is permitted to take money out of my pocket, do I get a corresponding right to vote against him in 2005? No?
Not unless you move to the city first. Just like, if I work in New Jersey and pay New Jersey's commuter tax, I can't vote for the governor of New Jersey unless I move there first.
--This isn't really a direct response to David's post, but it made as much sense here as anywhere else--
Nobody here seems to be asking one question that seems very relevant to me. How do other cities pay for the services they provide?
Are there any other cities in the country besides New York that impose an income tax on the people who work there?
Most cities get their revenue from the property tax. Residential property taxes in NYC are outrageously low compared to the rest of the region. But raising residential real estate taxes to the market level would cause collapse of the rent control system.
Commercial real estate taxes increases are a tough sell as well. By and large, the city provides less service to the commercial sector than they do to their residents. They don't provide sanitation service, they don't even provide EMS (if you're taken away in a city ambulance, you will receive a bill). Of course, raising the commercial property tax would only drive rents even higher and potentially driving more jobs out of the city.
CG
"Are there any other cities in the country besides New York that impose an income tax on the people who work there?"
Yes.
Good question.
While researching your answer, also consider the services provided by the city (as supposed to some other entity, like the state or private bodies).
>>> New York City does not perform a SINGLE SERVICE for me that it does not already provide for its residents <<<
I have seen all this griping about what New York does not provide, but remember the most important thing that NYC does provide to those affected by the tax – a JOB where they earn a living. Without the city, that particular job would not be there. Those that say, "I could get a job outside of the city" are welcome to do so.
Tom
OK....so if you come to Cedarhurst and you get mugged, you'd better be able to pay the Nassau cops and EMT's who come to help you. Otherwise, you can just lie there and bleed.
And you sure as hell also use city resources -- more than the dollar sales tax on your diner bill.
I wish I didn't have to keep repeating this point. Suburban commuters represent a terrific deal for the city. Basically, they're nothing but a big herd of cash cows.* While they place some additional demands on infrastructure-style services such as transportation and public safety, and transit in particular, they do not use the expensive transactional-style services that account for the vast majority of the city's expenditures - schools, hospitals, Medicaid, and social services. City residents, in contrast, have a voracious appetite for stuff like that. Bloomberg ought to be very thankful that the city attracts so many commuters.
* = sort of puts a new twist on one of my favorite expressions, cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons.
You can stop repeating this point, since I've already responded to it. In case you missed my response, I pointed out that most city residents don't use those services either.
>>> While they place some additional demands on infrastructure-style services such as transportation and public safety, and transit in particular, they do not use the expensive transactional-style services that account for the vast majority of the city's expenditures - schools, hospitals, Medicaid, and social services <<<
This may be news to you, but most of the taxpayers who live in the city do not use those services either. The taxpayers in the city are there for the same reason commuters subject to this tax are there; because the city provides a place to earn their living.
Tom
[Because there is no LIRR service to lower Manhattan, I have to pay double fares to the MTA every month in the forms of an LIRR ticket and NYCT Metrocard.]
Ummm... When did the MTA and its operating agencies fall under the Mayor's control? When did the Pataki/Bruno/Silver change the state's Public Authorities Law to allow for that change? Why was there no mention in the media?
Are the M-7's still testing midday? I saw them in Forest Hills several weeks ago between 1 and 2 PM, on two separate days.
In today's chapter of "Changing Places," (I'm in London and Simon's in the US)... the firefighters in London have gone out on a 48-hour strike. This has affected the LU Tube in two ways: (1) Some deep stations are being bypassed, as officials are concerned about evacuations if necessary. (2) Some LU drivers are out on sypathy (officially, they are "worried" about what would happen in an emergency). So today, the Circle Line is at very reduced service, and there are sporatic delays on other lines.
On a more positive note, I had a great ride today on the "Cambridge Cruiser," which goes non-stop from King's Cross to Cambridge in about 53 minutes. At one point, I clocked a 37-second mile.
Next stop, Bangkok.
In today's chapter of "Changing Places," (I'm in London and Simon's in the US)... the firefighters in London have gone out on a 48-hour strike. This has affected the LU Tube in two ways: (1) Some deep stations are being bypassed, as officials are concerned about evacuations if necessary. (2) Some LU drivers are out on sypathy (officially, they are "worried" about what would happen in an emergency). So today, the Circle Line is at very reduced service, and there are sporatic delays on other lines.
LU's drivers may have a point. According to a British news site I was reading, the military will be providing very bare-bones fire coverage during the strike, using obsolete equipment. In all of London, there will be only one unit with the ability to extricate people from wrecked motor vehicles. You can just imagine how chaotic the response to a train accident would be.
Evening update: The Circle Line (anticlockwise) and Picadilly Line (in Central London) are closed. Most other stations in Central London are overcrowded, so the police are restricting entrance to stations. I just had to walk from Tottingham Court Square to Marble Arch; even though the Central Line is running, the stations are outies only -- no innies!
The strike is due to end 6:00 pm Friday, so another day of LU mayhem.
Sounds like a regular zoo.
Peace,
ANDEE
You picked a bad time to be in London :-)
So T/Os didn't show up in fear if there was a fire that there would be mass casualites and no way to get out, but now that there are fewer trains, a fire would be even more devistating because of more crowding.
Would the London firefighters just sit at home watching the news if a disaster happened and lots of help was needed? I know FDNY's off-duty people went to work as soon as they heard about the WTC.
TLC- Tonight---Thursday 11/14 at 8PM & 11PM EST Wheels Of Steel. Hi-Tech. trains Acela,Bullet train, EuroStar,Channel tunnel.....
I was heading to the Q44 at E.180 on the 2 train last night and spotted a consist of R142's signed up as a 7 to Queensboro Plaza. I said to myself "What in the world?". My guess it's was just someone playing around with the signs, or could it be something else!?!
Tony
I'd love to see a picture of that. Well, what can ya do?
:-) Andrew
HOLY CHIT!
I had no IDEA that Paturkey's MTA management was ****SO**** STUPID! I mentioned that NYCSUBWAY.COM was exposed to any hijacker, but just took the time to check and ANYBODY could take over the subways, FAKE a Site and Take OVER the subways using the follwoing URL's to sell phony metrocards and other things through hijacking of the trademarked NYC Trainsit good name through BUYING the following domains from the SPAMMERS that own them now ...
MY GOD! Just a little HTML and a little JAVASCRIPT and ANYBODY willing to PAY THE PRICE could ****BE**** the MTA and cash it in. TYPICAL republican cluelessness that Al Gore's INTERNET Exists ...
http://www.nycsubway.com/
http://www.nycsubways.com/
Yow! Of course, without the influence of techies, they'd NEVER guess at the potential of the risk. After all, MTA possesses the magic MDBF numbers, and republicans know nothing about the internet, since that's AL GORE'S THING ... wow... FRAUD potential of registering those domains and selling METROCARDS with a credit care wouldn't OCCUR to the "high tech PATAKI administration" ... nope ...
Well, so long as the NYCSUBWAY(S) site are available, I might as well register them MYSELF and pay the cash, and then allow TWU to use them as THEIR spokes-site ... or maybe I'll just turn this all in to the New York Times ... after all, better a disgrace to the MTA than a PORN SITE using the domain. What *****assholes!***** GEEZ ...
I had no IDEA that Paturkey's MTA management was ****SO**** STUPID!
Hey, why don't you complain all the was up to the president!
check out HIS website at:
http://www.whitehouse.com/
Nah, already worn myself out on dubyaspeak ...
http//www.dubyaspeak.com
Forwarded the links to Randy Kennedy at the NYTimes to do with as he pleases. Sorry, the STATE doesn't PAY me anymore for the use of braintissue, they refused to use it while I was THERE, they can go contract it out for all I care ...
MORONS ... I now *SEE* where MTA management is at ... figures. :(
KWAP! Bad link on the previous message, missing a colon, just like Dick Cheney ... whoops ... THIS will work:
http://www.dubyaspeak.com
Wait a minute. You mean Reagan. Well, he's missing part of it, anyway.
There was a joke about that after he had his operation:
How do you address a letter to President Reagan?
"Dear Mr. President;", etc. Semicolon, get it? Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
What is up with all these perverted goverment jokes? Oh well, I'm laughing my ass off!!! Ha ha, thank you Selly!!
*****OH CHIT!!!!!!*****
Well, for a WHILE, Bubba had that domain. DAMN! I'm ****GLAD**** these are REPUBLICAN times! Hahahahahah ... at least NOW those 6 year old will understand FINALLY what a "haddon" is and won't have to disturb mommy while she's tied to the bedpost in an otherwise "compromising position" ... wowsers ...
Yeah, pretty much says it ALL as to the cluefullness of our "ahem" leadership. No WONDER Usama's STILL alive and FREE ... yep, we'se safe from war wit' da busch. As long as Daddy's safe, so's da D train. THAT ****WAS**** fixed before, back when Al Gore was veep, whoops. WELL, for what it's worth, I'm SURE it won't get fixed, maybe there'll be a TAX CUT for child porn, so long as it's an oil company that does it.
THANKS for the PROFF that republicans, and homeland security are "on the ball" even if it was a HOMEBALL and they passed it at 45 MPH. I ***LOVE*** it ... so much for the gasbags ... moo. And THANKS again! Hahahahahahaha ... MORONS ...
If you're going to rant and rave so loudly, at least have the courtesy to indicate how this caused you injury or financial damage.
If you're going to rant and rave so loudly, at least have the courtesy to indicate how this caused you injury or financial damage.
My apologies ... stayed awake way too long yesterday and posted while stupid. I went off because it was suggested that because a reporter couldn't figure out how to find the MTA site that somehow our Unca Dave might have somehow been at fault as a result. Shoulda gone to bed LONG before I did. Sorry, folks ...
Hey, why NOT set it up as a pron site.
Ever check in at http://www.whitehouse.com????
It sure ain't Dubya's house, that's for sure....more like Billy Bob Clinton's sort of material.
(Well, so long as the NYCSUBWAY(S) site are available, I might as well register them MYSELF)
If you're worried about it, try registering www.mta.com, www.mta.nyc.com, www.mta.nyc.ny.com, or www.mta.nyc.ny.us.com. They're all free. Once again, the ones you have exposed are takeoff on THIS site, not the official site.
nycsubway.org is the best and the most informative transit website. nycsubway.com is a sorry clone than does nothing than to con you in buying worthless merchandise and is a BIG SCAM
Not to mention the amount of cookies I had to delete after clicking on that site.
Actually all those domains are taken with all imaginable top levels.
Arti
If you're worried about it, try registering www.mta.com, www.mta.nyc.com, www.mta.nyc.ny.com, or www.mta.nyc.ny.us.com. They're all free.
What do you mean their all free?
By free do you mean available or at no cost?
All the domains you mentioned are already taken.
You can't register hostnames, only domain names, so if you want:
"www.mta.nyc.com" you need first to buy the domain "nyc.com", then create the hostname "www.mta" for that domain.
If you want to buy the domains you mentioned, you would need to buy:
nyc.com, ny.com and us.com, but if you do a whois, you will see they are all taken.
-Larry
I’m almost scared to start another thread with the word "Branford" in it, but some more of my photos need a bit more info, so I know what I am looking at, and can organize it. All they say is "Branford, 1964". I’ve never been to Branford, and thought maybe some of you are familiar with some of these trains.
Any information would be appreciated – what they are, if they are still in the museum’s collection, etc. Anything you want to share about them. The photos are 38 years old (I wasn’t even born yet), so I don’t know if you guys know too much about these. There will be a few more Branford ones, but I still have to scan them when I get a chance. So here are the first three, hope you enjoy them:
Photo1
Photo2
Photo3
Photo 2: looks to be Money car G.
Photo 3: looks to be BMTmans favorite car (1227?)
Photo 1: I have no clue.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pic #3 is a 1300 seris convertible so my guess is 1349??? (Not a bad guess from a BMTguy ;)
I think it is 1362!
Great pictures!
Photo #1 is BRT/B&QT single Truck Sweeper #9832/#7 built by Brill in 1915 at what looks like the location of the yet unbuilt Barn #6
Photo #2 yep that is IRT "G" with BRT BU #659 behind it
Photo #3 would be BRT Convertible El car 1349 or 1362 in front of Barn #1.
If you need any other info please let us know.
Steve Loitsch
I have some BERA pictures on my webshots page if they help.
http://community.webshots.com/user/3rdavery
Steve,
If I'm correct, these pixs are older than you? What year did
Dad start taking you to Branford?
Chris,
You can post all the positives of Branford you desire.
We all cherish, the views from the past. We can see
what's been done or what we haven't done or neglected.
MORE>>>MORE>>>MORE.....PLEEEZE.
BMT Man,
I'm dumbfounded, you picked up on the LIRR Caboose in another
post and can not differentiate between BRT BU Cars.
You assist the Department of Illumination on 3 rail duty
on 30 November.
;-) Sparky
Banished to Lionel restoration chores, am I? :(
Well, if you can not differentiate between a BRT 1200 & 1300,
it's track cleaning of the three rail type for yaw.
;-) Sparky
Well, at least I wouldn't need 'Bags' to supervise changing ties on 1:48 scale ROW! LOL! :)
If what I saw in the pictures was accurate, looks like there's at least one S curve where you can achieve ramming speed. :)
You can post all the positives of Branford you desire.
We all cherish, the views from the past. We can see
what's been done or what we haven't done or neglected.
MORE>>>MORE>>>MORE.....PLEEEZE.
That's what I figured. I assumed you guys that are familiar with Branford would really enjoy seeing some of the trains that you know, from almost 40 years ago. There are a few more shots from Branford. I'm sure the museum has changed quite a bit in that time.
So as long as you guys keep wanting to see some of these old photos I will keep posting them every now an then. I have really enjoyed going through them over the last week or two, especially because I haven't really looked at them in over 5 years. I'm finally starting to put them in albums, where they rightfully belong, and will scan some more of the more interesting ones as I get the chance.
Chris,
We await your scanning.
;-) Sparky
I would think others here would also be interested is see what survives of the El fleet as well as the trolleys & services cars of the various companies in NYC.
For me, I note how it looked then vs. today. Back then most of the fleet was outside. The elements weren't to kind to some :-( Also, there have been a number of "trades" between museums, e.g. we had two elect. cranes not too long ago, now we have one diesel. It has a cracked manifold, so we don't rev it up, but it does function and God fobid we loose power she'll be asked to help out.
What is the "Official deal" on the Mineola (which has historical significance for both the Subway and the LIRR). Will it ever see the light of day on the rails again. I heard it needs about $1M to bring it to its former glory. Is that in the ballpark (Just in case I win the Mega-Millions one of these days :-)?
It sure was a beautiful car. However, the condition of what it looks like from that photo and some others I have seen recently posted here, the Mineola seems to the rolling stock counterpart to the Chambers/Nassau Station. Some serious bucks needed.
Now that begs an interesting question. For all these years we have speculated if August Belmont used the connector at Flatbush Ave. to get from the IRT to the LIRR and on to Belmont Racetrack. I wonder if he ever used it, starting at Chambers, over the Williamsburg Bridge to the Chestnut St. connection and on to Belmont Park?
That is a good question.
Interesting photo. I assume that is the Atlantic line. Is that the spot where the LIRR left the Atlantic line on it's connection to the Jamaica Line?
Yes, you are looking east on the Atlantic Ave. line
Although the Chestnust St. connection ended in 1916 or 1917, it was not trorn down until the beginnning of WWII.
Would his compeditors, the BMT, let him? Besides, how would he get to Chambers in the first place from the IRT?
He didn't. Belmont would leave from the basement spur in his hotel on 42nd St.
OOps, That important fact totally slipped my mind.
August used his IRT to reach Atlantic Ave. where a spir existed to switch his car to the LIRR, which he also had interest in.
Since he brought up the question, I was hoping Bob would start the ball rolling by making a starting donation of $350,000...I know Bob, times are tough and the holidays are approaching....come on I KNOW ya can reach down and find a few hundred thou for a good cause...:) LOL!
>>>"the Mineola seems to the rolling stock counterpart to the Chambers/Nassau Station. Some serious bucks needed."<<<
Chris,
Do not classify the Mineola as the "rolling stock counterpart",
being a voluntary dues paying membership, of which a small %
labors in all aspects, we do mighty well on the limited amount
of income & funding we have. In all earnestness, are you a
member of a "Trolley/Transit" Museum? Get involved, as a member
of such a group before expressing views. We all have skeletons
on our properties, but some handle them better than others.
;-) Sparky
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it offensively. I understand exactly what you mean. I was just trying to say that some serious money will be needed.
Hey, Bob! Was Thurston on board when you took that shot? Looks like his notorious waterbottle on Belmont's desk (he always forgets where he left the darn thing).
Doug,
Bob & Linda departed the property before the tour of the "Minnie".
So Bob, who's photo's are they?
;-) Sparky
Yes, that's my water bottle & camera on the famous desk < G >
McThurston clutter!!! Aye.
;-) Sparky
Yeah, a GREAT shot ruined...;)
I concur!!!
But whose picture is it?
;-) Sparky
John, I thought Bob DID get a tour of the Mineola before he left for the day...he took the shot!
To the best of my recolection, they left before the "Minnie" tour.
It was after lunch wasn't it? Or am I losing it?
;-) Sparky
I took that picture last at year's Autumn in NY.
So both the BMTman and Sparky were off the mark.
What you mean off the mark...I said from the begining that Bob and
Linda left prior to the "Minnie" tour of 13 October, 2002.
YoK, half right ... same as you, half right as to whose photo
and of course the McThurston Clutter.
Half a pie is better then no pie. >right<
;-) Sparky
As for the McClutter I set down so I could shine my flash light & give the tour geees, Bob must have liked the effect, i.e. it added a little color to the photo < G >
Bob,
Aye, mystery solved. Thanks for preserving my lucidity.
;-) Sparky
"I heard it needs about $1M to bring it to its former glory."
Jesus Christ, you'd have to be using birdseye maple siding boards for it to cost $1M. :-)
Seriously, though, the rebuild of Fort Wayne & Wabash Valley #504 at IRM cost considerably less than half of that, and the rebuild included:
-Perhaps 15% of framing members replaced
-Majority of roof replaced
-All siding replaced
-All windows replaced and reglazed (including stained-glass windows)
-Painting and gold-leaf lettering
-New brass exterior fixtures (grabs, window guards)
-Refurbished trucks, compressor, a few other mechanical parts
Food for thought - I don't know much about the "Mineola," but unlike #504 pre-restoration I don't think it has any doors cut in the sides. My wild, off-the-wall ballpark guess would be $200-250K. That's assuming that most major electromechanical components (trucks, control, etc) are on hand and only need refurbishing, as opposed to fabrication.
Frank Hicks
As Jeff said the figure was $250,000 several years ago. It seems to go up everytime someone tells the story :-( Because it was one of a kind & has a lot of historical value our Curator doesn't want it started by well meaning novices. I for one would love to do some work on it, but know I don't have the cabinet maker type skills to do it right.
Just before it did a turns as a farmer's bunk house it lost all it's running gear. Branford has acquired most parts that either are or are nearly correct for the car ... so it can be restored & currently resides inside a barn to slow further deterioration.
Meanwhile other cars in the collection continue to get their share of TLC. The work must go on with them too just to keep up with normal ware and tare. e.g. PCC 1001 was restored when she arrived, now she needs a new paint job & some metal work ... and so it goes.
The figure given by a restoration specialist was more like $250,000,
several years ago.
Sparky,
I think Dad started taking me in 72 or 73. Yeah they are defenitely older than me, in '64 my parents had not even met yet.
Steve
Thanks for the info.
Your link will help me identify some of the photos I have.
Nice photos! I didn't make it to Branford for another two years, and then got stung by a wasp while climbing up one end of the Hi-V to look inside - it had made it's nest up in some hidden spot within the deck roof...
Okay here are a few more. Any information on what these are is appreciated. Again, all they say is, "Branford 1964". I have about 3 more branford ones after these.
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6
Chris,
Photo 4, is either 1414 or 1425 at Farm River Road going outbound.
Avenue 'L' platform, is now to the right on track 10. That's
CONNCO 855 to the left, as the BERA Rollsign Shop at the inbound
station stop.
Photo 5, is a caboose on track #13 outside carhose #1.
Photo 6, is either CONNCO 865 or 1199.
Eagle Eyes Steve, Chime In Please.
;-) Sparky
I will have to agree with you Sparky, I cant make out the truck type under the Conn Co car so I am not sure either, my guess would be 865. The caboose is an Ex Lehigh & New England car number escapes me now. Was used as a bunkhouse for members.
"Eagle Eye"
Thanks Eagle Eyes,
I took a quickie glance at the photos earlier and took a guess
as to what they are.
Also dating the photos, there is a time lapse of twenty years.
Photo 4 is in the early seventies at earliest. My first visit
to Branford in 1967/8 it was single track in that area with
cars stored on track 2 [current inbound main].
A educated guess at photos 5 & 6, would be in the fifties.
I also agree with you that photo 6 is 865. 1199 now being
readied for restoration, has more of it CONNCO yellow paint
on the exterior.
;-) Sparky
I don't doubt you at all, because you know a lot more about Branford than I do. However, each photo has "Branford Trolly Museum" and "July 1964" hand-written on the back, except for Photo 4 which has "July 1965". Those are the only clues I have. In addition, each photo has a white frame around it (like they did in the 60's), and the actual date of July 1964 (July 1965 for photo 4) actually printed on the white edge by the developer. So, I don't know about the early 70's.
But again, I can't even make an educated guess on them, I'm just going by the actual photos I have in front of me. Very stange.
John,
Track 2 (the present inbound main) was used for storage.
However, it only stretched from the original Alex Switch
(which was a few hundred feet west of the present switch)
to the road crossing. The current Alex switch, loop switch,
Sando and Edgewood were all put in ca. 1970.
Chris/Jeff,
I glanced in a hurry and missed the absense of track 2 on photo 4.
So the dates on the photos are correct.
But, for a quickie peak and indentifying the cars and locations,
give me a B. Also I do not have access to the archieves as
our Webmaster does. So it was CONJECTURE, but it wasn't meant
to be misleading.
;-) Sparky
I made out "1414" on the open bench car.
So the sign shop was CONNCO 855. Is it still on the property?
No, 855 is on Frontage Road at the Holiday Inn Express, leased
to the City of East Haven and used as their Visitors Center.
The only CONNCO Streetcar to receive "Air Conditioning". >golly<
As to photo 4, the clarity on my screen was not distinct to
read the number. But only the pair of 1400 opens would be
in service in 1964. Or it's seasoning. Second youngest
on this board, yaw know. >G<
;-) Sparky
As to photo 4, the clarity on my screen was not distinct to
read the number.
Looks like 1414 to me. The paint on the second "1" seems scratched, but it seems like a "1" to me. I'm sure of the other numbers. ALso, if it helps, the top sign says "Woodmont", and the lower destination sign says, "Woodmont RR Station".
I'm sorry if some of the scans are not clear, as they are in the originals, but the site I have them posted on does not allow me to remote post them any bigger than I have been doing, If I try to post the larger version, an error message comes up.
>>>"Looks like 1414 to me. The paint on the second "1" seems scratched, but it seems like a "1" to me. I'm sure of the other numbers. ALso, if it helps, the top sign says "Woodmont", and the lower destination sign says, "Woodmont RR Station".<<<
Well, I drew my conclusion on what would have been in service
at the time and the roof of the car. I could not read the number.
The "Woodmont" on the curtain on top or "Woodmont RR Station",
have no meaning to me, being a Brooklyn Boy. But the true
significance of them, is that they are a matched pair for
route & destination.
Keep them coming, even if I'm not getting an A on identification.
I'm having a blast trying.
;-) Sparky
#4 is open car 1414 (now leased to Lake Compounce park) outbound
at Farm River Road switch. Same yellow-striped pole still there
today, but no switch stand in 1964; it was still a single-point job.
ConnCo 855 across the right-of-way
#5 LNE Caboose 516 on track 13 in front of Barn 1. It is still
on the property today (last I looked).
#6: I lean strongly towards 865. At this time (1964), 1199
was being stored in Barn 2, track 2, on the disconnected track,
and could not have reached this location (in front of NY Barn).
775 was housed in Barn 2 and this is also plainly not 775, just
look at the side window pattern.
Well here are the last of the Branford Photos for now that need identifying. Photo 9 I think is the sweeper train we saw earlier, with something else behind it. All have "July '64" on them, except for #10 which has no date or markings, and I don't even know if it's even Branford, although it does have a trolly pole. It's obviously more recent than 1964. After this we'll get back to the other mystery photos, have fun....
Photo 7
Photo 8
Photo 9
Photo 10
Chris,
Here we go again, I'll surmise the following, till corrected.
Photo #7, Brooklyn Rapid Transit El Instruction Car #999
Photo #8, Motreal Tramsway #2001, still in service in 2002
Photo #9, Not the same sweeper as earlier, Yonkers RR #59
in front of Montreal Tramsways #1972
Photo #10, IRT HiV Gibbs Deck Roof Car #3662
Will wait to hear from my other colleagues at Branford.
Eagle Eyes [Traction Fan] picture from his collection of #999
in roster of Preserved North American Electric Cars Roster.
;-) Sparky
Neat photos! I have a couple of questions, of course, that I'm mildly curious about. Any idea what the gooseneck brake handle we're looking past in photo #8 belongs to? Also, what barn is going up in #9 - and is that PSNJ 2431 on the left, inside a barn?
Frank Hicks
Sparky & Frank,
I have no idea what car that is in #8 could be a few as a few of the South Brooklyn cars had open platforms as well as the Baltimore crane.
I cant tell what barn that is going up, from the angle my guess would be the Meadows barn(#6)
Yep that is 2431 there on the right Frank.
"Eagle Eye"
Chris, Thanks for posting, I've enjoyed them.
The same goes for me Chris. Always enjoy Branford Pictures. One question though, how were you able to post them here on the message board? I have tried in the past to do this with no luck.
Steve Loitsch
Steve, before you post them on a board like this, you have to upload them somewhere online. You can't just copy and paste it here from your computer. Once you get a URL for the photo, you can post the photos here using HTML codes - (img src ="www.whatever.the.URL.is") - putting your photo URL between the quotes, and replacing ( ) with < >.
Some photo sites however, like Webshots, do not allow for remote posting of photos, so you have to make sure wherever you upload your photos to, you can remote post them to places like SubTalk, if that is what you plan to do. It sounds complicated, but it really is very easy.
Chris I wish I knew about Webshots before I posted about 50-60 Branford shots there. Oh well right?? Thanks for the help. I will look into another image hosting source. Thanks again
Steve
I was up there with my parents in 1963. We saw #1414 and rode on #34, another one of the open cars. I believe #34 is still there. We got as far as a trestle and had to go back because they lost power in the trolley line.
wayne
Wayne,
1963...come on that's thirty nine years ago. [shades of Jack Benny].
The mainstays of the double truck open fleet have been CONNCO 1414
and 1425. Lynchburg, VA/Wilwood, NJ #34, the first car owned
by the museum is still there. Not currently in the operating fleet.
You gonna do a pilgramge for your forty year absence in '03.
;-) Sparky
Yeah, we can sign up 1689 as an F just for you.:)
Seeing all of ChrisGP38's shots has lit a fire under me to get more added to my Webshots albums. Added a few shots to show how things have changed since 1947. Also a shot of 1227 on members day 1986. And one for Sparky since he asked the question a while back, my 1st ride at Branford in 1973 (I think, still waiting for confirmation from my father)
Steve Loitsch
http://community.webshots.com/user/3rdavery
Fresh out of school car, does a new T/O have to go to the extra/extra list, or can he/she be assigned (or pick if they're lucky) to a regular steady job(i.e. the D and Q in the PM shift, W/T off or RDO relief)? If not, how long do they have to stay on extra/extra?
I am ALMOST guaranteed to pick next time and it will be after working the road for almost two years as extra-extra. A few of my classmates will still not be able to pick even then. For the people after me it will be even longer and even when you do pick the last jobs filled is OPTO XL which involves lots of Queens based jobs.
If you know someone at the Supt level you can get a holddown.
But, then again, I had a picked job (granted, it was Midnights) after 10 months out of School Car.
I got a pick jobs 9 mouths out of school car, but it more like the job pick me. I got one of the last open jobs of the pick that started 12/2001. I was stuck on the work train for five mouths. I heated every day of work, during that pick. I even booked off sick more then I ever did in all my time while I was driving buses for the MTA.
Robert
It was 6 months before I picked.
I am ALMOST guaranteed to pick next time and it will be after working the road for almost two years as extra-extra. A few of my classmates will still not be able to pick even then. For the people after me it will be even longer and even when you do pick the last jobs filled is OPTO XL which involves lots of Queens based jobs.
If you know someone at the Supt level you can get a holddown.
I would think a new T/O would go extra/extra. They might be able to get a regular job the first or second pick. However it would probably be the job that nobody would pick if they could pick something else.
As a C/R I was able to get my first steady job off the Bid sheets 9 Months out of School car. It was 5 days on the #1 Line 5PM to 1AM T/W off. Now after almost 2 Years I can pick almost any line exept AM's on the Lex and anything on the # 3 Line. I don't like the # 3 anyway and love PM's so I'm a happy.
You a happy camper dude? Same here. PMs are most covenient for working, and sleeping in. I don't see myself getting AM or night jobs for a long time, these are harder to come by in the pick room. By the time I get into the room, those jobs are already gone. I'd better get some seniority, and say a prayer. I'm going down the yellow brick road!!!!
-Stef
Stef,
Redbirdie Lover, are you going to take the next test for T/O or
stay in the booth and watch trains go by?
;-) Sparky
With time, I hope to move on up.
We shall see....
-Stef
Right now I'm happy I'm working PM'd RDO Relief which works out good. I don't want a steady assignment because with RDO Relief I can extend my own weekend by picking early on my Friday and late on my Monday's.
The same here. I am so feeling RDO Relief. Thats where Im staying until there is a GOOD straight job to pick. Why bother when I know I can I get at least 3 days out of BK.......(A division)
It all depends on where you go. A or B division. T/O's who were hired in January 2001 and came to the A division, are still, for the most part, stuck on the extra list. However, some T/O who were hired months later, and went right to the B division, are already working picked jobs.
I've been with the TA for a year, and expect to pick RDO relief or OPTO VR in the B division in the spring.
No, only about 25-30 of the Deb 2001 class have jobs.
I was near the top of the whole class and I barely got in. The top person from 2-26 was 3399 and it cut off around 3430. There were some RDO jobs left, and those of us who didn't want the G OPTO every weekend went for OPTO VR.
Exra extra was better for me as being near the top I had Sat./Sun.
Now I got "poisoned" with OPTO and not only do I have to worry about jobs like the G (Though the M and Grand St. shuttle are cool), but now there's talk of making OPTO T/O's go down the road as C'r's aome times. A total step backwards!
I was more disputing what Luch said.
There were people behind you that did OK.
If you really wanted to stay RX, going A Div was also a legitimate move.
Were there any more openings over there? So many people in our class that went to A div. were then sent over to B.
I's love to see the rest of the system, but many if not most of the jobs over there are ridiculous, from what I've heard (2 trips on 2, 3 on 4, 6, etc). Plus everything except Livonia and Utica is far away.
I assume you are 2/26 class.
I was told if you were near the top and were in the A last pick you would have had a job, this pick you would have fallen to the XXL. Many 9/11 related jobs are no longer needed, jobs stopped in the 3300's
Amount of trips on each IRT line:
Line:
1: 3 Trips
2: 2 Trips
3: Can be 2 or 3 trips
4: Can be 2 or trips
5: Can be 1, 1 and a half, 2 and a half, or 3 trips
6: 3 trips
7: Anyhwere from 3 trips tp 5 trips
Then you have utility jobs that there is only 1 trip.
1. probably comparable to 3 on the C (which I avoid like the plague in my bids along with the 4 trip J's). The C goes into Brooklyn, but the 1 goes further north, and IRT stations are more (closer together) than IND. So that sounds like too much. (WTC schedule to New Lots was 2, and this I heard was the worst.)
2. Likewise, goes not as far south as the A, but goes much further north and is local everywhere except Manhattan (all local nights and during WTC plan, and still 2 trips). As the A can get tiring, that too sounds like too much.
3. 2 trips, sure. 3, not sure. Not as long as the others (all those local stops in Bklyn though), but I'm sure with all the delays on those lines, it gets tiring.
4. 2 I guess would be OK. But at not all that much shorter than the 2, 3 trips must be too much.
5. I know the full line to Flatbush must be the 1½ and 2. That's just like the 2, except express in the Bronx one trip. 3 to Bowling Green? Might be bearable and comparable to 3 on the Q circle since it is express in Manhattan. Still it seems much longer than the Q though.
6. Like the 1, That sounds like way too much. It seems like forever just from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge.
7. I've heard about the 5 trips. That would be just like our L. (I had one of those jobs once, but because of the 8 minute supplement for the signal work around Canarsie, one of the trips was cut out.)
Other lines:
B. 4 (a few 5 trips. The benefit of these is they start from 34th, but I never had one of those yet)
D, 3. Much shorter in Manhattan than the 1, 3 and 6, though
E. 3 and 4. The four trippers seem to be bearable, since it is express the bulk of the trip (Queens). If it's an early AM, and I didn't get enough sleep, it gets tiring.
F. 2 (very few 1½). Exp. in Queens, but a long winding local the rest of the way. (with plenty of delays, work gangs/maintainers, etc) I used to get to around Church feeling like I did a whole day's work, then realizing I had to complete my first run, then go all the way back, then do it all over again. This is what the 2 might be like.
G. 5 to CSQ, 3 to CTL. There are 2 6 trips, one of which I kept getting alot because the guy works in the union. (this pick he has a 5 trip job, but I'm no longer XXL). This was too much, (no time to breathe) along with the 3 OPTO, which I also avoid like the plague (Had Labor Day; picked VR to avoid having it every Sunday.)
J. 3 is pretty much enough. (going through the slow Cresent St. area makes it seem much longer than it is)
M. 3: 2 to one terminal and one to the other. (only goes through lower Manh.; not the length of Manh.) I forgot if I ever had the 2 to Bay Pkwy/1 to 9th Av. If early or late enough and you have shuttles, that cuts out one trip. OPTO shuttles are about 10 trips.
N. 2. I notice there are a couple of 2½ out of City Hall.
Q diamond. I think mostly 4. Runs really fast. I was lucky enough to have 3 and a layup to the yard earlier this pick.
R. 2 Perhaps the fast Queens run makes it not seem as long as it is.
V. 3. really fast flowing and bearable.
W. 2 have this today till Wed. Plenty of spare time. Wouldn't the N, R and W be about the same length as the 3 trip 1, 3 and 6?
Maybe it's my perception, since I am not as familiar with the Bronx IRT, and it seems like there are so many more stations on each line up there than there are on the Brooklyn, Queens and Concourse lines (plus it's much further away from the CBD than Bklyn and Queens).
Still, going from one end of the four boroughs to the other on the B div. is basically the A and F now, and the B and D when that side of the bridge is open, and two trips of these are enough but people like them for the money. 3 trippers half way through the city are not nearly as long as the slow uptown IRT.
You forgot that almost every B job also involves DH or some sort of short trip to 145.
The PM 4 E is hell as the road starts to blow up or the GO's kick in. The AM one is sort of nice.
G OPTO in service to Church OW was the height of dog jobs. A classmate has the G OPTO, every Thursdat night he goes to the crew office and puts in the AVA/VID request. He will only work the job if he knows there is a GO that cuts a trip or the length of the line. With luck he will not have a regular 3 tripper until March
Yeah, I forgot about the shorter B trips, and I also forgot the D is usually 4 trips, not 3. If it goes local on CPW due to a G.O., one of them may be cut out.
I never got 4 on the D but I hope 2/4 would be express. As a midnight guy my jobs are often better on paper and worse in practice than yours.
The running time on the 2 is anywhere from 1hr22min to 1hr34min depending on the time of day. The running times on the 3 and 4(express) is 61-65 minutes.
The running times on the 1,5(Bowling Green), and 6 trains are about 55 minutes.
Imagined if the 2 was extended to Sheepshead Bay... Scary..........
There is one (and only one) 5 tripper on the B - B214. It starts and clears at 34/6. One round trip to Bedford, 4 round trips to 145, the first of which is the first to terminate at 145.
At least one of the Ns from City Hall is a trip and a half in service - light from CHL to Astoria, one round, lunch, clear at KH-N.
Isn't the PM job out of 34th 5 trips also? Maybe I just assumed.
It's either four or four and a half - I forget where it finishes. But having worked B214 for over a year, I KNOW it is the only five tripper.
Amount of trips on each IRT line:
Line:
1: 3 Trips
2: 2 Trips
3: Can be 2 or 3 trips
4: Can be 2 or trips
5: Can be 1, 1 and a half, 2 and a half, or 3 trips
6: 3 trips
7: Anyhwere from 3 trips to 5 trips
Then you have utility jobs that there is only 1 trip.
Y'all are having so much fun deciding how it might get killed that I hate to ask about a detail of its actual construction, but here goes...
Does anyone know if the connection to Chrystie at Delancey (to what is now the shuttle) has been designed? Elsewhere on this site are some alternatives, and I'm wondering if one has been settled on.
"Does anyone know if the connection to Chrystie at Delancey (to what is now the shuttle) has been designed?"
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/index.html
They have not yet decided whether to continue down Christie St below Delancey, in which case you'd have two island platforms, or connect the SAS into the J/M/Z at Delancey, in which case there would be no connection at all.
If you go deeper into the site, at
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/pdf/sara_park.pdf (Acrobat Reader required)
there is more detail about six suboptions (four for Chrystie/Water Streets, two for Nassau Street) with maps and cross-sections.
Yes. This is exactly the set of PDFs I was thinking of and had printed out a while ago -- thanks for posting the link. But does anyone know if the MTA or any of the powers-that-be have eliminated any of the options yet? If engineering is actually advanced, it seems as though they'd at least know whether they'd do a deep or shallow option. (As an adopted New Yorker I'm always pro-shallow. I'd also hate to see the Christie connector severed).
Though the V line runs on all IND tracks, it was given a letter below "K". Does that break the mold, or has it happened before?
Is it the first IND line lettered below K?
I think it is, and I think you mean "above" K.
Depends on whether you consider the 6th Avenue (Q) an IND or a BMT. That was just a temporary reroute, though---a temporary reroute that lasted 13 years! Also since the disappearance of the "EE" the Queens Blvd. IND local has had service from both the (N) and (R).
For that matter there are also the various shuttles, lettered "S", that could be considered IND: 63rd St, Grand St, and Rockaway Park. Then again, none of these operated on pre-unification IND trackage.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, I was thinking of the S also, but figured that doesn't really count as a real route. As for the Q, it's close, but I think it is really a Broadway train, even if a "temporary" reroute on the IND, the Brighton line is pure BMT. The N and R, though both Queens Blvd locals at one time, are really BMT trains running on the IND from BMT Broadway. The V is a pure IND train. But I can see anyone arguing the case for any of the ones you mentioned.
Well, the Q is considered a IND route since it was "temporarily" rerouted to 6 Av but now you could "say" it is a BMT since the Brighton AND Broadway lines is BMT and it went BACK to its original route. Had they not let the South Side of the Manny B. been left to deteriorate in the 80's, the M might still be on the Brighton line, the N may still be running on the bridge with the Q and the current W could have been a local train via the West End, Montague tunnel, B'way local to Astoria but the drawback is that the B might have had to be 2 sections.
BTW, the Times Sq shuttile is purely IRT and the Frankiln is a BMT since it used to be a full subway line and as for the Rockaway shuttle, I'll consider it a IND.
The S is considered a generic route symbol as it is used on all 3 divisions to denote a shuttle.
IRT 42nd Street Shuttle
There was a time when the Dyre Av Shuttle used the S but they stick with the 5 indicator these days.
IND Grand St, and Rockaway Park (and 63rd St while it waas running)
BMT Culver Shuttle - no wait, that was the SS and was discontinued before they went to single letters.
Franklin Shuttle
But the SS was also used as a generic shuttle designation on all three divisions. The Lenox and Dyre Avenue shuttles along with all the other shuttles (except Rockaway) had the SS designation. The TA switched to the single S, I think, in 1979 when they adopted the current color designation. All S's were shown in a black bullet and had a black line at that time too. The first post-1979 S that was shown in a color other than black, I believe, was the 6th Avenue Shuttle which ran during the first time that the North side of the Manhattan Bridge was closed (1986-88).
Well it also depends on which version of 'K' your referencing,
as its been both a BMT & IND routing.
K or KK, Broadway Brooklyn Local [even though it served 6th Ave.],
IMO it was a BMT Route. It originated on the BMT Eastern Division.
K, as 8th Avenue Local replacing the AA, it was a IND Route.
Service was from 207th Street.
Any letter above H was BMT to me, till the V.
;-) Sparky
This is true, I do think that the K that ran to Jamaica was a BMT running on IND tracks at 6th Ave.
With out being a nut cracker, it started out as a double lettered
route the KK, replacing the BMT 14.
I'm a fan of the double letters vs the diamonds & circles.
Including the doubles which were combined routes, QB, QJ, QT, RJ.
Never did like the double E to Whitehall. Now was that a
BMT or IND route, since it originated out of Jamaica?
Long live the "GG" and return her to QB 24/7.
;-) Sparky
My favarite line (maybe of all time) was the NX and I loved every minute of the ride from 57th to Brighton via Sea Beach.
And if Fred had ridden on it, it would have been his favorite, too.:)
The NX didn't make *any* stops on the Sea Beach, it was a Brighton train from Brighton Beach that went up the Sea Beach express tracks. I would think Fred wouldn't have much liked that. :)
It stopped at Pacific St. and at 59th Street in Brooklyn.
Not Brighton territory.
I would say that the EE was IND because it started with R1-9 then went to R10"s?.
But later didn't it go to R16's which are BMT? I still say IND because more hours were spent using IND cars for revenue service.
The "EE" went from R-4/6/7 to R16, with brake test R40Ms thrown in for good measure. Occasionally you would see an R38 there, and even more rarely, a Slant (signed up as "S" in front, blank on the sides).
wayne
I would say that the EE was IND because it started with R1-9, then went to R10"s?.
But later didn't it go to R16's which are BMT? I still say IND because more hours were spent using IND cars for revenue service.
The EE is really a made-up designation. EE really means a local train on QB (which it was) that somehow makes it to 8th Av (which it didn't). On the other hand, the Broadway (Manhattan) BMT lines were designated by their Brooklyn extensions. The EE, not going to Brooklyn, could not be designated with either N, Q, R or T without confusion. And it wasn't an Eastern Division train, so J, L and M were not appropriate either.
It basically was a QT cut back in Manhattan. Originally, QT was going to be used for what became the QJ, so then QB was going to be used for the Whitehall service, then QM, then EE was settled for.
Yup, just like the B & D in Brooklyn, which were considered IND routes running on BMT lines. The Culver and Libery Ave. lines were considered IND lines immediatley after they were connected to subway lines in the 1950's.
The KK/K was the Avenue of the Americas''6th Avenue'',Broadway Brooklyn local. IND in Manhattan,BMT in Brooklyn.
Actually the original IND had letters assigned only from A to G. The "K" was a BMT letter, even though it ran on 6th Ave. Originally, the "KK" was intended for designation of the old BMT #14 when letter designatons were made for BMT routes in 1960.
The IND letters also included "HH", which was originally supposed to be the Fulton St local to Court St, but quickly became the Hoyt-Court Shuttle.
:-) Andrew
Right. IND letters were A thru H. In 1960 the BMT lines were allocated the letters J thru T.
Were U and T ever used? Were they just skipped and B-Div went straight to V? Is V just B for people with bad teeth?
>>>"Were U and T ever used?"<<<
U has not been used to date.
T and TT were both used as designations for BMT West End Line
Services, the BMT #3.
IIRC: T was for service to 57th Street or Astoria.
TT rush hours to Chambers Street via Tunnel and Late Night
Brooklyn only service to 36th Street.
;-) Sparky
T and TT West End express and local from 1960 until 11/67.
The TT might have been used a little bit longer. The B replaced the T and W replace B on West End.
Am I right in presuming that the B was (and will be) the north side of the Manhattan Bridge, and the W now uses the south side (from DeKalb) and goes up Broadway instead?
Yes. The North side of the bridge leads to the Sixth Ave IND while the South side of the bridge leads to the Broadway BMT subway.
:-) Andrew
Were U and T ever used?
See my handle ;-)
The T has been used. It was a West End local on the BMT when they started using letters. After 1968 and the Chrystie St connection started, the line was taken over by the B line. That has been established in here. The U has not been used....yet.
The hybrid 2/5 service that ran during the Lenox rehab was designated "U" for RTO purposes, from what I have heard.
An U on A division?
It's possible.
Unlikely.
Why U? Why not 10 or 11 or something like that?
Maybe they were trying to avoid double digits (The 42 St. Shuttle is 8)
But K was already used for an all-IND service in the 80's.
Yep, but it was allocated to the BMT in 1960. It was used for the old #14 route at times.
Assumimg you "meant" after K,
V was the next available letter.
After K there is the
L that is in use.
So is the M and N.
O would be confused with the zerO.
And people might get the zerO mixed up with the IRT.
P was to be an subway substitute for the LIRR
in case the LIRR couldn't get to Manhattan.
Q, R and S are in use.
T was a BMT line.
U would be confused with yoU.
The U will take yoU....
So like I said,
V would be the next available letter.
And in all probability
the X or Y
will be the SAS letter.
As to X and Y, my opinion is that they will be used for skip-stop service as the "Z" or "9" is used, with the Y used first.
X is available and used currently. Saw it Friday on a non-revenue
movement on an R-38. Indicates "not in service".
;-) Sparky
You probably won't see it in service either as it would cause confusion internally.
X usually denotes an extra job on work programs. To have a regular X service would probably confuse the old timers looking for 1 trippers :)
Those were "V" jobs, but when that became a line, they simply moved it over to a new letter.
I doubt the X will ever be used for revenue trains. X has some negative connotations as the 'unknown'...
If the 2nd Avenue is ever built, they'll probably use Y. K and H are lying around, but the MTA has a bias against using letters or numbers used for previous routes. Maybe they think it's a jinx... And P would sound funny.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Dang, guy ... back in the 70's, the "X" of your connotation ran on many lines, often with the express light lit. Sounds like the subway's no fun anymore. No sense of "adventure." :)
Yes, there was an NX, etc, but X has never stood alone.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Correct, but what I meant by "X" train was "X the unknown," Sculley as conductor, Muldaur up front. Back in the 70's, you never knew if your train would "make it" or where you might end up at times. I think that's why they're afraid to use it nowadays. :)
Oh, yeah?? How about this?
>>>Oh, yeah?? How about this? <<<
And doesn't that big X loook strange?
I dunno. Maybe they WILL use X when they get the chance...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Good Picture Sarge, more so that's it's 884, which still has
a home at Branford.
Yes in Third Avenue Trolley parlence it was X for Crosstown Routes
and even a Z for when 2 crosstown lines traversed West Farms in
da Bronx.
;-) Sparky
Not too surprising that it's from Branford as I scanned it from "Ride Down Memory Lane".
Sir, I gonna call a copyright cop.
Well you newbies, reading what I read way back when.
Now out of print, new updated editions coming in 2003.
;-) Sparky
Sir, I gonna call a copyright cop.
Well you newbies, reading what I read way back when.
Now out of print, new updated editions coming in 2003.
;-) Sparky
*WOW* Three POPUP ads for just one picture! Must be a new record!
I really wouldnt rule out X yet. no one knows how the service patterns are going to be. Hell' it can be (O,P,T,AB). BTW that P crap isnt funny its just plain stupid.
I forgot about T, the most popular consonant in the english language. (The People's Choice has already been employed in the TT)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Isn't S the most popular consonant in the English language?
It certainly is the most popular letter in the subway.
A guy once wrote a 200 page book without using "E". I bet he couldn't do that without S or T.
www.forgodden-ny.com
If Second Avenue were somehow connected to the Southern Division, T would be an excellent letter, especially if it ran on the West End Line.
That's possible. 2nd Av. is supposed to run into Grand St. (what would become new "outside" tracks behind the wall), and where the bridge tracks separate north of the station would become a flying junction (going straight (middle)=MB-2nd Sv. (outside)=Water St.-2nd Av., and the current 6th Av. tracks would wye from both).
So since the unused letters seem destined for 2nd Av., yet T is traditionally the West End, it could be both-- 2nd Av./West End via bridge. If the 2nd Av. via bridge was routed via Brighton, I'd call that U (my old idea for the "non-D" Brighton local QB/QT or present Q circle)
Y would be the Water St. line. V would be moved over to Queens/2nd. Av via 63rd St.
I would prefer the N as the new 2nd.Av-Bway express (fixing it permanently as the express, making some people happy) with the Q moved to Astoria.
It's also possible if 2nd Avenue runs via Nassau Street - maybe the rat-infested Montague St tunnel would finally be desirable!
R is suppose to be the new Broadway-2 Avenue Express service.The new T would replace it on Queens Blvd,and serve as the Bway local.
That wouldn't have any nearby access to a yard (but then neither would the full line length Y on Water St. to uptown if that is run).
R is suppose to be the new Broadway-2 Avenue Express service.
When did this happen? Since Exp trains have to operate via bridge (TA philosophy, not mine), does this mean R via Bridge? Wouldn't it just make sense to merely EXTEND the Q train, and cause LESS CONFUSION?
This may reflect the whole Canal St. reconfiguring plan, switching the bridge and tunnel tracks between exp. and local. So the tunnel trains would have fed into the express. David had said that this might have been scrapped, which I hope is true. It stems from when only the stubway (above 63rd) was to be built, to give 2nd Av direct service to lower Manhattan. But now since the impetus now is for the whole length line, that is not necessary for a long term solution. If the upper line is completed first, I would use the and swing it over to the local and tunnel at Prince peak direction only (this was actually one of the plans for the Astoria service several years ago, (reported in the ERA c.1994) when the bridge was supposed to be finished in 1997. That way, Brooklyn riders would have the bridge and exp., while people coming from the other way would still have downtown service, until the lower line is completed. No need to spend all that money and inconvenience messing up the current bridge/tunnel configuration.
In the hip-hop video "Holla Back Young'n", The Artist fabolous spends part of the video looking out of the back of a train. It is an R-62, and there is an X in a lexington av. colored diamond. I think they just put an X in a real R-62's bulkhead. There are numerous shots of the car's interior, and it looks real.
If the women they had in the station in the video were in the stations in real life, ridership would increase drastically.
The letter P used as a potential route marker on a train is not stupid, it's just a letter like any other letter. Besides, the average commuter wouldn't care what letter the train uses, as long as it does what it is supposed to do: transport people from area to another.
X was proposed and programmed in the R-44/46 signs as a flyover from 21st St. to WTC.
Assumimg you mean 21 St-Queensbridge to WTC,
What color would that X use?
I remember one time on the A line at Rockaway Blvd
There was a train going the other way
with a V on a green circle saying
6th Avenue Local
on the side of one car.
The color would be gray on green.
An "X" train routed from WTC to Queensbridge would be orange, because it's midtown part of the line would be the 6th Ave line. (The same reason the B and D are orange, even though they run on CPW).
And P would sound funny.
What will be even funnier is when the bring back the double letters.
They will *have* to bring them back, you know. I've built so many new lines that you will *need* more letters that what are now available.!
Elias
No, we can have Express trains represented by CAPITAL letters, and local trains would be LOWER CASE.
And you can imaGINE THE SERVICE ADVISORIES WHEN SOME POOR SOD'S HAND SLIPS And hits the cAPS KEY!
That was an idea I had, albeit too late. They should have made the AA the "a", instead of moving "K" over. (K then probably would have been used in place of either the V or Z, which would have been truer to it's earlier assignments.)
What color circle is the "X" in?
White
The X was in the digital on the Front of an R38, the signs on
the side of the pair were signed for the (E).
;-) Sparky
Veteran SubTalkers may remember this G/O notice that I found at Canal Streeet (Bridge Platform) about two years ago. So of course there's an X Train!
ROFLOL
;-) Sparky
V didn't break the mold. All letters were intended to be used for the IND system, except they were extended for use on the BMT in anticipation of integrating both the IND and BMT. Had the IND Second System had been built, most of the letters would be in use by now.
Yeh but still, The V is the first IND to use a letter below K. I stand on the fact that it broke the mold.
Here's a list I don't think I've ever seen compiled--songs which in some fashion directly mention, reference, or are about, the New York Subway/El system.
This has a lot of potentital variety, as songs can mention in the subway in a lot of different ways, but have one thing in common--without the subway, the songs would be different. I can think of three offhand:
(Disclaimer: Please correct me if I've misquoted or have the names or artists incorrect--but I think you'll recognize the songs)
In New York, New York (Comden/Green) from On the Town
The Bronx is up and the Battery's Down
The people ride in a hole in the ground
Visions of Johanna by Bob Dylan
The late night girls
They whisper of escapades out on the D train
Take the A Train by Duke Ellington and Charles Mingus
You must take the A train
To go to Sugar Hill way up in Harlem
The Sound of Silence, by Simon and Garfunkle:
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets
are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls."
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence.
MTA by The Kingston Trio about Boston subways; 1958. About three stations and the fare structure are sung about.
Kendall Square not a transfer for Jamaica Plain-All on the Red Line. "Sister in Chelsea." What line goes to Chelsea?
10 cents a ride but 5 cents to get off for zones. Miami busses use to have that in the 1960's.
Poor Pitiful Me-Linda Ronstadt about 1975. She was waiting for the "Double E" train.
Group name: D Train
Baker Street by Gerry Raferty. Maybe the London street, not the station.
Simon And Garfuncle album cover: Wednesday Morning 3AM; from 1965, pictured at 5th Ave. IND with R1 pulling out of the station.
Album cover: BT Express is 125th street MetroNorth station.
Group: Gun Hill Road (with 1973 song Back When My Hair Was Short) could be the street and not the station though.
Record Label: Times Square Records; Yes the station.
Funky North Philly by Bill Cosby. Maybe the area, not the station.
A song by the comedian from around 1968.
>>Album cover: BT Express is 125th street MetroNorth station<<
The location was LIRR Nostrand Ave before station was rehabbed.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>Poor Pitiful Me-Linda Ronstadt about 1975. She was waiting for the "Double E" train.<<
I haven't heard this song in a while, but weren't the following words:
"But the train don't run here anymore.
poor, poor pitiful me "
Bill "Newkirk"
Here are the actual lyrics to "Poor Poor Pitiful Me". Even though Linda Ronstadt had the hit, the tune was actually written by Warren Zevon.
Poor Poor Pitiful Me
written by Warren Zevon
I'd lay my head on the railroad tracks
And wait for the Double E
But the railroad don't run no more
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
These young girls won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe is me
Well, I met a girl in West Hollywood
I ain't naming names
She really worked me over good
She was just like Jesse James
She really worked me over good
She was a credit to her gender
She put me through some changes, Lord
Sort of like a Waring blender
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
These young girls won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe is me
Well, I met a girl at the Rainbow bar
She asked me if I'd beat her
She took me back to the Hyatt House
I don't want to talk about it
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
These young girls won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe is me
There is also a reference to "Double-E" (or rather the plural "Double-Es") in Dylan's "It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train To Cry."
Don't the brakeman look good, mama
Flagging down the double-Es
The song appeared on the 1965 album Highway 61 Revisited, two years before the EE train.
Both the Dylan song and Poor, Poor Pitiful Me sound like they're referring to a railroad train anyway, it would seem there is some railroad meaning to "Double E."
When the Dylab song came out in '65, I thought he was referring to twin EMD "E" type passenger engines, but some think that "Double-E" referred to a class of large locomotive or even a wide gauge railroad.
I doubt it refers to the Queens-Broadway Local.
Sorry, Paul, I didn't see this post before I posted nearly exactly the same info. Well, at least we concur on this 100%.
Sorry, Paul, I didn't see this post before I posted nearly exactly the same info. Well, at least we concur on this 100%.
Yeah, like I never do that. :)
Great minds think alike. ;-)
Well, Linda Ronstadt"s song came out within a year of the end of the EE line.
Warren Zevon just recently died, so we he can't be quizzed on the meaning of the double E reference in that song.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a shame.
We could still ask Dylan, but I doubt we'd get a reply.
Really? When did he die? I heard he had terminal lung cancer, but wasn't aware that he passed away. He was only 54.
wayne
I just looked for an obit, and apparently he was alive as of yesterday (11/13).
I just looked for an obit, and apparently he was alive as of yesterday (11/13).
Nor does stiffs.com have an amusing quip to mark his passing.
>>I just looked for an obit, and apparently he was alive as of yesterday (11/13).<<
I think you're right, Paul. I was mistaken when hearing a radio item that he had terminal cancer. My miscue.
Bill "Newkirk"
A couple of weeks ago, Zevon was on the Letterman show. He was pretty upbeat, considering his condition and all.
Wasn't there a Sesame St song about the subway that included a line
"......take the express
It will go right past your local address".
And on subways in general, the Kinks "Waterloo Sunset", 1967
"Millions of people
Swarming right by round
Waterloo Underground"
The recent "long' closing of Sesame Street when they show the credits (usually on Fridays) has a sequence of kids getting on a cartoon train, the train running for a while, then sopping and the kids getting off.
I remember as a kid watching Sesame Street where they'd show the fronts of various R-42s and the song going something like
A, B, double C
Take you where you want to be
Ride the local or express
Dosn't matter each is best
--Mark
I think the words go
"Millions of people swarming like flies 'round Waterloo Underground".
That is in reference to the "Waterloo & City" Shuttle line, now a part of LUL, and running 1992 Tube Stock in NSE blue livery. The interiors, sadly, are just as dreadful as the rest of the 1992 stock.
wayne
Wayne
I think you are right about the words. Of course, in 1967 the Waterloo and City units would have been those odd greenish aluminium cars that looked like a cut price version of the 1938 Tube stock.
What about DON'T SLEEP IN THE SUBWAY by Dusty Springfield ?
Yeh. But Petula Clark had the hit, but I forgot that one. That was about 1966, maybe 1967.
Yah - It was Petula Clark - That goes to show what happens when you are up for eighteen hours straight with a cold. Your mind goes to mush !!! (Or is it jello?)
That was Petula Clark.
Does anyone know of a place with a MIDI file for MTA by the Kingston Trio? Thanks.
That was Petula Clark.
Does anyone know of a place with a MIDI file for MTA by the Kingston Trio? Thanks.
>>> What about DON'T SLEEP IN THE SUBWAY <<<
Given that Petula Clark who wrote the song is English, and the following line is "Don't stand in the pouring rain," are you sure the "subway" she was referring to was the underground, and not an underpass?
Tom
Interesting point.
Peace,
ANDEE
Absolutely, "Don't Sleep in the Subway," being by an Englishwoman, referred to an underpass.
AHH... HOW could you forget Petula Clark.
Don't sleep in the subway, darling,
Don't stand in the pouring rain.
peace.
ANDEE
Well, if you want to be totally accurate,
New York, New York (Comden/Green/Bernstein) from On the Town .
New York, New York, it's a wonderful town
the Eastside's up and the Battery's down
the subway runs for miles below the ground
New York New York---it;s a wonderful town.
BTW, the subway they were talking about was the Sea Beach. I bet you didn't know that.
It doesn't say "open cut".:)
There's a song from the 60's musical "Hair"--I believe the song is called "Initials":
".....L.B.J. took the IRT
Down to 4th Street, U.S.A...
When he got there-
What did he see?
The youth of America
On L.S.D......"
Games People Play by Spinners 1975.
"6:00 heading for the subway home."
Did the MTA, or any of its predecessors (TA, BMT, IND, IRT) ever have an "official" song.
Something like: "See the USA in your R-38..."? :-)
(with apologies to Dina Shore and GM)
J.C. Cohen by Allan Sherman:
Listen, all you children, to my sad refrain,
About a subway conductor on a runaway train.
Squeezing people into cars, he won his fame.
(yeah) And John Charles Cohen was the great man's name.
J. C. Cohen, what a great conductor,
IRT, that's a subway line,
And if you gotta travel uptown,
He's a greater conductor than Leonard Bernstein.
'Twas on a Sunday in the summer, and from everywhere,
People planned to take a subway to the World's Fair.
A half a million people tried to push and jar,
All of them determined to get in one car.
But the IRT depended on their finest men.
J. C. Cohen could pack a subway like a sardine can.
He pushed the people up and back and 'round about.
He squeezed so many in, he squeezed the conductor out.
J. C. Cohen, what a great conductor,
How he'd moan, "Step to the rear."
J. C. Cohen, he really had a problem,
On a subway train without an engineer.
J. C. tried to get into the engineer's place,
But when he look inside the cab he saw a strange man's face.
A half-pint drunk with a full-pint bottle.
He emptied out the bottle, and he yelled, "Full throttle!"
They passed Columbus Circle doing 82,
'Couple minutes later they were under Bronx Zoo.
J. C. shuddered, and he said, "I guess
This used to be a Local, but it's now an Express."
J. C. Cohen, what a great conductor,
Kept his head when everyone was tense.
He said, "When we pass the city limits,
Everybody pays another fifteen cents."
J. C. said, "We're heading north, my friends,
But not a man alive knows where the subway ends."
The train went under Albany at 90 flat,
And Governor Rockefeller hollered, "What was that!?"
A lady said to J. C. Cohen with indignation,
"If this is Albany, then you have passed my station.
So either you should take me back to Fifty-ninth Street,
Or ask one of these gentlemen to give me his seat."
J. C. Cohen, what a great conductor,
J. C. Cohen noticed something odd.
When he saw lobsters on the roadbed,
He said, "I got a feeling we're beneath Cape Cod."
Oh well, the train kept speeding to the north, my friends,
Finally came to where the tunnel ends.
When they came up to the surface from the long, long hole,
They were 27 inches from the great North Pole.
J. C. hollered, "Everybody out!
This is the end of the line, beyond the shadow of a doubt."
They went out to get some fresh air, and before they took a whiff,
Cohen and all the passengers were frozen stiff.
J. C. Cohen, what a great conductor,
Bless his soul, he ran out of luck.
J. C. Cohen, he was really frozen,
And he had to be brought home in a Good Humor truck.
When they told Mrs. Cohen that she'd lost her man,
She said, "Must you interupt me when I'm playing Pan?"
Then she said to her partner, Mrs. R. J. Rosen,
"Cohen was a lovely husband, but he's no good frozen."
Then she went to her little boy, and took his hand,
And she said, "I'm going to take you out to Disneyland.
So Melvin, little darling, don't you weep or wail,
'Cause you got another papa on the monorail."
(Got another papa on the monorail.)
He is rather good, isn't he. I would like to add that it goes to the meoldy for "Casey Jones".
I've never actually heard it myself, but I came across it on a website of Sherman's lyrics. His terminology is a bit off, but who cares?
"Downtown Train," by Rod Stewart.
"Outside another yellow moon
has punched a hole in the night time mist
I climb through the window and down to the street
I'm shining like a new dime
The downtown trains are full
full of all them Brooklyn girls
They try so hard to break out of their little worlds
You wave your hand and they scatter like crows
They have nothing that'll ever capture your heart
They're just thorns without the rose
Be careful of them in the dark
Oh if I was the one you chose to be your only one
Oh baby can't you hear me now, can't you hear me now
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
Every night, every night its just the same
On a downtown train
I know your window and I know its late
I know your stairs and your doorway
I walk down your street and past your gate
I stand by the light of the four way
and watch them as they fall, oh baby
They all having their heart attacks
They stay at the carnival
But they'll never win you back
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
Every night, every night its just the same
You leave me lonely
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
All my dreams, all my dreams fall like rain
On a downtown train
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
Every night, every night its just the same
Will I see you tonight on a downtown train
All my dreams, all my dreams fall like rain
On a downtown train
On a downtown train
All my dreams fall like rain
On a downtown train"
Also sung by Tom Waits and Mary Chapin Carpenter.
Here's a classic by Blue Oyster Cult, from 1973
Ridin' the underground,
Swimmin' in sweat
A rumble above and below
Hey, cop don't you know
The heat's on all right
The hot summer day didn't quit for the night.
Chorus:
1277: Express to heaven
Speeding along like dynamite
1277: Express to heaven
Rumbles the steel like a dogfight
You caught me in a spell
Tryin' to leave but you know darn well
The heat from below will burn your eyes out
Blackened-out eyes
Scratched on the wall
Stoned-out looks from the crowd
The King will not know
On the wall it was said
The flash of his cards was sprayed in red
(repeat chorus)
"Hot Rails To Hell (1277: Express To Heaven)"
Lyrics and music by Joseph Bouchard
(C) 1973 B.O'Cult Songs ASCAP All rights reserved
Yes, that is THE same 1277, the Pullman R-6-2.
wayne
Heat from below, eh? Sounds like 9/11/73, what with the heat in the car being on that day. No reference to Ralph, though.:)
No reference at all. That song first hit me on June 4 of the same year (1973). The first ride on it, the more infamous of the two, it just happened along. The second (11/06/73), I sought it out. When I got to 179, it was pulling in to the inbound side, and I waited for it to return from the turnaround track. IIRC it was the fourth car.
In 9/73 it was the lead. Those were the only two times I got it.
wayne
Take the A Train was written by Billy Strayhorn, the Duke's partner-in-crime.
We've done this a couple of times before (New York Subway Songs, songs for the subway?, and Subway Songs); here are my first, second, and third lists. I'm sure I can come up with a few more :).
How about sound effects? In 1979 Joe Walsh had a song on The Warriors movie soundtrack album called "In The City" which, although in doesn't make any reference to the subway in the lyrics has, at the beginning, the sound of subway brakes screeching to a halt and the doors opening.The same song Walsh later rerecorded as a member of the Eagles on the "Long Run" LP- minus the sound effects.
Oh yes, there's another one I forgot about, also by Blue Oyster Cult-
it's called "Morning Final", from the album "Agents of Fortune".
At the end of it, a pre-GOH R32 is heard coming to a station stop.
wayne
Slight correction Paul:
The lyrics to "Visions of Johanna" (Blonde on Blonde, 1966):
And the all-night girls
Who whisper escapades out on the D train.
Obviously, if the D train was "out", it must refer to the Culver portion. But the song continues: Lights flicker from the opposite loft. Soho? Greenwich Village? Also served by the D train.
Also, another Dylan song "It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry" (Highway 61 Revisited, 1965):
"Don't the brake man look good mama,
Flagging down the Double E"
Well, that was before the existence of the EE in New York. Don't know what he might have been referring to.....
And there's Ryan Adams' "New York"
Used to take the subway up to Houston and Third
I would wait for you and I'd try to hide
The rapper Jay-Z is from Marcy Av, which happens to be served by the J/Z, so I guess that's how he got his name. Jay-Z sucks, BTW. Nas is way better.
Didn't Jennifer Lopez do a song about her 'home turf' line in the Bronx...something about the 'Number 6' or something like that in the title?
I don't know if there was a song, but her debut album was called On The 6.
A recent (last 5 years) one hit wonder whose name escapes me at the moment did one of her videos on the #7 line - the song was called "Don't Want to Fall In Love".
In 1982, a rap group called the Interborough Rhythm Team came out with a song called "Watch the Closing Doors" which depicted a ride on the uptown #1 train between South Ferry and 125th Street. I wish I bought that 12" single (though I do have the song on cassette off the radio).
Also, the Enterprise in the original Star Trek series used an R-1/9 as the sound effect for the ship accelerating into warp speed. Not quite a song, but ....
--Mark
Chris R27-R30 brought up a point considering BMT standards that I want to pursue.
I was told by my father that a high accumulation of snow caused a Sea Beach train (around the year 1950) to lose its power. There was only enough power to enable the train to slowly limp to the next station, with the emergency lights on in the train.
He said, that he had to walk to the West End, because snow would not affect the motors on the El because there was no place for the snow to settle. I got the impression that the whole open cut of the Sea Beach was shut down by the heavy snow and snow blowing into the motors. Was there some short circuit on the trains?
My father lived in Coney Island and said that the Sea Beach was the fastest way home by about 15 minutes, so he usually took S.B. to Stillwell/Coney Island.
CAN SNOW STOP A 1950 ERA TRAIN? ie. Type D or Standard?
Having experienced it firsthand...
The biggest problem in the snow was rarely the snow itself but icing on the third rail. Despite alcohol trans there was sometimes enough accumulation of ice and packed snow to cause the shoes to lose contact. If enough shoes lost contact for a given train, the motors that did have power might not be sufficient to run the train.
Sleeting conditions could be the worst for this, especially when outdoor third rail was uncovered, as was common on the BMT through most of the '50s.
The line was kept open by the frequent running of trains throughout the storm, day and night. Standards and triplexes (more snow-capable) were brought out as regular trains, even on lines like the J where they almost never ran in regular service. You know where I was whenever a storm came around.
Deep snow rarely stopped an outdoor line altogether, but if it was deep enough it could stop service, if allowed to accumulate, kind of like car bogging down in sand.
I was never on a train that actually stalled, but the nearest was on an R1/9 on the D train leaving Parkside NB to Prospect Park. The snow was over the running rails and we glided along on a broad expanse of white, as the lights flickered and went out. We almost didn't recover from the combination of ice, snow, and the third rail gaps at the switches, but the motorman was skillful and patient, and we did make it.
The ride was eerie and nearly dead silent, save for the beating of the storm on the windows. It was an incredibly beautiful experience.
That sounds like something close to what my father experienced. Too bad his train was going the wrong way. You were tunnel bound and close to relief at Parkside to Prospect. All that awaited my father was a long trip to the ocean shore which was not completed by the Sea Beach.
I did a couple of those. Just another reason why I loved working the Brighton. :)
On open cut sections such as the Brighton and Sea Beach lines, snow will suspend train service if there is enough acculmation to nearly cover the 3rd rail. And on the Brighton Line, an occasional tree branch has fallen on the tracks, disrupting service.
On Oct. 12, I was held up for 15 minutes on a W train just before 9th Ave. due to a fallen tree branch. Then when we got to Bay Parkway, we encountered a series of red signals even though the track was clear. At Stillwell Ave., I managed to make it as far as the second car going the other way before the train pulled out. Didn't get a railfan view of the Sea Beach express run.
Snow will stop a train if enough snow falls on solid ground (not open deck elevateds) to cover the third rail (usually means at least a foot). If enough snow is ingested into traction motors there is the possibility of motors becoming inoperable due to short circuits when the snow melts. Finally, where there are highway grade crossings where MU electric trains operate (commuter rail), an additional problem is road salt ingestion into the train's traction motors.
a number of years ago we had the big blizzard- Brighton, Sea Beach, Dyre, Rockaway, Franklin was out as was PATH from Newark to Journal Square. Much of Metro North and lIRR also out. NJT ran Sunday schedules with end doors only.
(a number of years ago we had the big blizzard- Brighton, Sea Beach, Dyre, Rockaway, Franklin was out as was PATH from Newark to Journal Square. Much of Metro North and lIRR also out. NJT ran Sunday schedules with end doors only.)
Not to mention the Flushing, Culver -- just about anything outside anywhere in the city.
As I recall, the dug out one track at 4th Avenue, and ran one train back and forth between Church and 4th Avenue. There, you could change to the 4th Avenue line, which was all underground. The shuttle was so packed you couldn't get on it. We walked down to Prospect Av on the 4th Avenue for 2 1/2 days.
Road salt messes up a lot of stuff. Out my way (Babylon) they still salt he state roads, but local streets haven't been salted for maybe a decade or so. They plow the snow, let the snow pack some, and sand the worst patches. Another reason it helps to have at least one 4x4 in the garage.
The transition areas (between the salted and unsalted) can be a real mess for icy pacthes.
Fastest way home!!!! There were a lot of Brooklynites who said the same thing, and that is why I wonder why so many people claim that the Sea Beach is slow, laboring and time consuming. It is the same line as then, the same route----except no bridge, no express and no Coney Island. You give the Sea Beach an express route in Manhattan and 4th Avenue Brooklyn and it will be the fastest way home again, and that would increase rider service because if there is one thing about New Yorkers it is getting to where they're going as fast as they can.
We'll see what happens when the bridge re-opens. If they increase service on the Sea Beach, will more people use it? It might be better used if they had between train control and customer information, so 4th Avenue riders could get on an express within a minute at 59th Street.
BTW, with parking scarce in NYC, and park-n-ride a possibility for those who live beyond the subway, I wonder what would happen in NYCT were to sell the "air rights" over the Sea Beach, the depressed portion of the Brighton, and the Dyre to parking lot operators? The TA would install footings and beams in the ROW, and the operator would put a deck over it. The parking company could then rent spaces not only to local residents but also to park-n-riders, who would have the subway right there. The portion of the Sea Beach closed to 59th Street might be good for Staten Island residents, not to mention Dyker Heights, with an express from there right to Times Square.
Funny you should mention that. I was thinking roughly along the same lines over the last few weeks, except i had more of a medium-density residential/light commercial/greenway concept in mind over the Sea Beach. There should be enough room for some parking too, especially from 5th Avenue to New Utrecht, where the alignment is exceptionally wide.
As for the Brighton, parking lots might be a problem (can't access 'em from Cortelyou or part of Beverley -- station houses are in the way), and creating new building lots midblock may not be legal. I think that was outlawed by one of the Tenement Acts in the late 1800s/early 1900s, but i may be wrong.
Something else can be done there, albeit with a lot of temporary disruption and at some cost. If the Brighton express tracks were ramped down one level for a stretch between about Dorchester and Albemarle Roads, an island platform could be built on the express track ROW between Beverley and Cortelyou. This new local station ("Beverley/Cortelyou Roads"?) would replace the four existing side platforms, improve operational efficiency, provide greater passenger safety, cut down on the MTA's electric bill -- and on top of all that, you can put a bucha big pillars on the platform that would support a deck. Adjacent properties would get the land back that they lost in 1907 when the line was depressed in exchange for a cut of the increase in these properties' values. And also, the MTA would be able to reinforce the retaining walls on the Brighton, which look like they could fall down any day in places.
Sorry -- got kind of far afield there.
BTW, with parking scarce in NYC, and park-n-ride a possibility for those who live beyond the subway, I wonder what would happen in NYCT were to sell the "air rights" over the Sea Beach, the depressed portion of the Brighton, and the Dyre to parking lot operators? The TA would install footings and beams in the ROW, and the operator would put a deck over it. The parking company could then rent spaces not only to local residents but also to park-n-riders, who would have the subway right there. The portion of the Sea Beach closed to 59th Street might be good for Staten Island residents, not to mention Dyker Heights, with an express from there right to Times Square.
Neighborhood opposition would kibosh the plans. Even if locals were guaranteed a certain percentage of the parking spaces, and could park for free, they'd raise a hue and cry. Welcome to New York.
The Sea Beach may be the fastest route from Coney Island in its optimal state, but Coney Island doesn't draw all that many commuters.
Both other southern Brooklyn BMT lines (Culver doesn't count) have more passengers than the Sea Beach because of the areas they serve. As a result, the Sea Beach is the route that has to be humiliated through the tunnel. EVEN IF the Sea Beach ran over the bridge, it still would not collect more more passengers than the West End or especially Brighton. The goal is to inconvenience the least amount of passengers, not the most.
Since the Sea Beach Line is on the surface rather than an elevated structure, it might be the last of the outside lines to get knocked out by the snow.
#3 West End Jeff
The question is "Can Snow stop a train?" The answer to that is: The way the New York Islanders goalies are playing, NEITHER Chris Osgood or Garth SNOW could stop a train, let alone a puck!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Snow will stop a train under the right conditions. Some of the ways are:
Most commonly 3rd rail icing.
Packed snow over the ball of the running rails.
Snow getting into the propulsion controls.
Snow causing a tripcock to be activated.
The last item is most interesting. Back in the 80s, from October to April we'd attach a wooden block to the tripcock arm, called a snow block. When properly installed, they make the trip arm too rigid to be activated by moderate snow. The snow block will not keep the tripcock from being activated by a stop arm, though. The current practice is for the maintenance shops to keep the snow block on all year. Before snow blocks, some of the older BMT equipment, most notably the D-types, had a valve that would allow the operator to isolate the tripcock during moderate to heavy snowfalls.
The snow blocks serve another duty in that they are knocked off by the stop arm, giving physical evidence against an offending train operator who improperly passes a stop signal.
Actually, since they are held on by tape, it's not generally accepted as proof of hitting a signal. More definitive evidence is in the fact that the trip arm on the tripcock is painted white and the signal stop arm is painted yellow. If we find white paint on the stop arm and yellow paint on the tripcock - that's pretty conclusive.
SNOW stopping a train? Heck, wet leaves on the tracks can stop or slow a train to a crawl. The Manhattan-bound PW Branch , due to arrive at Broadway at 9:01 AM, arrived at 9:27. This was before the rainstorm was in full swing...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wet leaves are a real problem, especially on the Brighton line and on the Rockaway A line. They cause loss of traction, station run-throughs and flat wheels up the @$$.
While listening to Lisa Baden's 6:48 traffic report this morning, the usual DING DONG sound indicating she was about to give the transit status went off. Sure enough, she did. "MetroRail Green Line, experiencing delays in both directions because of a deer on the tracks at Georgia Avenue, they shot it with a tranquilizer dart once, it didn't work, and are going to try again."
Green line trains were still delayed as of 7:25 by about 20 minutes. There were some dogs that once made it into the Red Line tunnel back in the 80s. It isn't the first time animals have venutred into the tunnels.
The deer should have waited after 9 to use an all day pass.
The standard WMATA interior is changing, and its more drastic than just color changes. The new color scheme will remain on the 6000 Series cars, built by Alstom, but the floor to ceiling standee poles will be removed. Horizontal and vertical bars will be near the doors. All but 2 windscreens will be removed in the car. The wheelchair position will be moved to the center of the car to facilitate movement thoughout the train. The long bar that ran along the ceiling will be replaced with two bars above the aisle running up and down the train and a single bar in the center of the car running across the train. Also, two LED next stop indicators will be added in the middle of the cars in addition to those at the ends of the cars. They should resemble those on the 01800 Series cars in Boston. There will be 6 fewer seats per married pair of cars. These changes will make the order cost about 2 million dollars more per car (IIRC). You can view a movie courtesy of WMATA at www.washingtonpost.com. A link is available on the front page as of when I last checked there. The car order is still for 62 cars although the option for 120 more is still available.
Checked out the video on the Post's website. Pretty cool. I like the idea of having more bars to hang on to. I wonder if the cars that are getting rehabbed are now going to have the new poles in light of this? Probably not if the Alstom cars are to be the first ones to have it done this way. By keeping the poles away from the doors, it should keep some from congregating around the doors and blocking everything. They should have looked into just making all the seats sideways, too!
I think the horizontal bar near the door is going to be a mistake. Looks pretty inviting to standees. I don't think they are going to change anything when they rehab the cars.
Those changes upped the price of the 6000 series by $2 million per car or to $2 million per car? Both are a whole lot of money.
The 660 new R-160 cars ordered by the MTA from Alstom and Kawasaki cost $961,687,121 according to the MTA's press release, which comes out to about $1.45 million per car. WMATA's really getting ripped off on these babies if the 6000 series is coming in that high...
Check the specs, like WMATA has ATO. The jigs and templates are already there for the R160 a holdover from the R143. Alstom is starting from scratch with WMATA.
Volume buying does help too.
Sorry, I must have misread something. WTOPnews.com says that the modifications will not raise the 129.2 million dollar price on the cars. Note that there are only 62 cars for WMATA, not 660.
The $129.2 milion for 62 cars comes out to just under $2.1 million per car. That's about 40 percent higher per car than the MTA's R-160 order, though economies of scale could be a major factor, since the R-160s order is 10 times the size of the WMATA 6000 fleet, and the difference could go even higher if the option orders are exercized.
Don't forget that the R143 is 60' long while the 6000 series is 75'. But still, a 10 train of R143s is slightly cheaper ($1.5 million) than a 8 car train of 6000 series. Perhaps the ATO and other related high-tech equipment that the R143 doesn't have pushes the price up?
I like what they're doing to increase access to wheelchairs and bikes. There will be fewerseats, but with sufficient rolling stock they can increase the # of 6-car trains vs. 4 car trains to compensate. I don't know the magnitude of the effect during rush hour.
It does seem very expensive, probably because of the small # of cars involved.
That is interesting. It seems with the two standee poles would increase the number of standees, but on a crowded train (especially on the Orange line heading towards Vienna, it be hard to get out of your seat. They should excersise the option for those 120 trains, since Metrorail passengers are rising quicker than bread with alot of yeast.
Can't wait to ride them. Hopefully they won't have the troubles that the CAF cars went through.
Wayne
Alstom already has some AC high-tech trains running on systems around the world, so I'm sure nearly all the wrinkles have been ironed out. Alstom makes great cars, I love 'em.
I saw some Alstom engineers (as indicated by their shirt and hat) riding MARTA's new Breda cars a couple of week ago, which was weird considering we don't have any Alstom cars at all on the system. I wonder if they were getting ideas for the 6000 series. Some features described are what MARTA has had for while, the two grab bars running the length of the car, no vertical poles at the doors, fewer seats in the Bredas compared to the Franco-Belges and Hitachis, and no seats at one section of the center of the car. Hmmm...
I would think that Alstom, Kawasaki, Bombardier, Breda, CAF and Siemens send people to ride each other's train all the time.
On a related note, I have heard stories about the antics GE and GM-EMD employees would engage in to sneak peeks at each other's new prototype locomotives.
True, especially considering how similar WMATA and MARTA are.
Today (Thursday), I was waiting for an express train at Grand Central to take me downtown to Union Square, and I was pleasantly surprised when R36 #9764 (I think) pulled in to the station to take me home. I love that railfan windown! Great express run on a great train. Holla back
-Jeff
Whoa!! Thats strange. I wonder why that was on the 4, maybe more R62A's are going to the 7 and they are moving out of Corona. Well that's a nice treat for you and railfans who may have saw/rode it and MAY surprise people who noticed the difference.
I hope you have seen messages in the upcoming events page about the December 7 railfan trip to Reading, PA. The trackage from Norristown to Reading services no passenger trains, and probably will not for a long time. This may be your only chance to ride such trackage.
More info at http://www.dvarp.org/announcements/readingtrip2002.html
I was wondering any tips of where to pick up stuff they through away. And do you think with the reconstruction of Coney Island I might be able to pick a sign or 2 up
Brian Pawelko
bpawelko@comcast.net
There's always stuff for sale on e-bay, you just have to know the difference between authentic signs vs. immitations.
I was wondering any tips of where to pick up stuff they through away. And do you think with the reconstruction of Coney Island I might be able to pick a sign or 2 up
Brian Pawelko
bpawelko@comcast.net
Trash is on site and secured until container is picked up at most TA sites. TA employees are now prohibited from garbage picking for Ebay auctions. Unmarked 'homemade tools' for Redbirds I saved may one day adjust cars at Branford. CI Peter
Stuff like that is usually hauled away to the garbage heap. OnTheJuice was right when he said TA employees are not allowed to get stuff for themselves. But really, you can usually just go up and take stuff if you want to. No one will really try to stop you.
Are the M-7's still testing midday? I saw them in Forest Hills several weeks ago between 1 and 2 PM, on two separate days.
It would be interesting to see how the routes will be handled on the R33 train traveling along the (proposed) Brighton and Culver Lines. Because of the Stillwell Ave reconstruction, trains along the Q line cannot pass through Coney Island, there are no tracks and no platforms. On the Culver line, it's a little easier, after leaving Ave X station, we can go through the Coney Island yard to get to the Sea Beach (hello Fred!) and West End lines.
There is (at least) one track passing through Stillwell.
Unfortunately, we won't be able to use the Brighton Line that day. A MAJOR General Order will be in effect the weekend of December 7-8, with buses operating between Prospect Park and Atlantic Avenue. Lunch will be at Rockaway Parkway. But let's turn lemons into lemonade -- we'll be able to use the old alignment at Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line, which is expected to be abandoned the following weekend!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Anyone who wants a ticket for the December 8 trip, the upcoming Hudson-Bergen tour, or (NEW!) a Newark City Subway shop tour the day after Thanksgiving should come to tonight's New York Division-ERA meeting at St. John's University, 109 Murray Street (between Greenwich and West Streets) in Manhattan. Doors open at 6:15 and the meeting starts at 7:15 PM. Tonight's a NYC subway show (with some LIRR and NY Central), presented by Pat Hamill, an ex-New Yorker who took color slides of the system from 1955 to 1972! We just might have some shots of "redbirds" before they were "redbirds"...
Members, subscribers, and first-time visitors get in free...all others pay just $5.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Tonight I understand the presentation is pre-graffitti NYC rapid transit. I was planning to be there but now I have to babysit Justin :-( ... my grandson.
Too bad about the Brighton Line ... I was looking forward to getting some express runbys of the Redbirds ... oh well.
Maybe we can make up for it on the Broadway El between Marcy and Broadway Junction ....
--Mark
I don't think the trip will cover that area. I understand it will be the Rockaways and I think the Culver (Maybe wrong lol). But I do know it is supposed to cover a lot of gound (or trackage) for the day.
See David Ross's post above:
"Lunch will be at Rockaway Parkway. But let's turn lemons into lemonade -- we'll be able to use the old alignment at Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line, which is expected to be abandoned the following weekend! "
I hope it can use the Bway express track.
On two recent occasions, I've noticed repainted fiberglass end bonnets on R-46's. They look real good, nice and shiny. All cars in a four car unit are repainted.
Who's doing the repaint, Coney Island or Jamaica ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Most likely Coney Island, it has the facilities to do this. The Kew Gardens/Jamaica yard is small, that many E trains lay over on the express tracks east of 75th Ave after 7 PM. I doubt fresh paint is available there
"I doubt fresh paint is available there"
Actually, Jamaica shop keeps 5 gallons of paint in a secret vault for emergencies.
Where would you get a rediculous idea like that? It has nothing to do with paint storage at Jamaica Shop. I can assure you that there is ample paint stored there. The paint used on the fiberglass bonnets is a 2-part epoxy paint. The spraying of the paint for large surfaces requires a properly ventilated spray-booth per OSHA regulations. Such facilities are located at Coney Island.
>>The paint used on the fiberglass bonnets is a 2-part epoxy paint. The spraying of the paint for large surfaces requires a properly ventilated spray-booth per OSHA regulations. Such facilities are located at Coney Island.<<
Thanks for the insight, Train Dude.
BTW, any word if the R-68's will get new linoleum floors ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It looks like they're currently concentrating on putting the black floors into the R42's. I've noticed more and more of them in recent days.
R-68s were scheduled to get new floors in late 2002 & 2003. It's now been pushed back to 2004. The floors are sound but unsightly due to the extensive patching.
Jamaica Yard is a very large yard. They have more barn tracks for inspections than any other yard (207th and CI are main shops, so don't count them). Well over 1,000 cars are assigned to Jamaica for inspection purposes. No other yard is in charge of so many cars. No other inspection yard handles so many routes: E/F/G/R/V and Grand St. shuttle. E trains (and for that matter all the Queens lines), lay up train underground since there is no way to fit that many cars in the yard overnight.
When the R-68s went in for their 12 year SMS, the bonnets on the open ends of each link was painted. That painting was done at Coney Island. I assume that the R-46s are getting similar TLC.
i ,ve seen it too,on the R line,i see R46 with painted bonnets and the
front of the R46 also got the paint job too.i,ve also seen this done
on the R44,the MTA wants to keep these cars in tip top shape.
til next time
Having been one for over 20 years, I do not think transit workers deserve to be called "Punk-Ass" or "Bitch-Ass" or any of the other derogatory terms that the three stooges have used here. The fact that little clayton & his friend ran from a "punk-ass" conductor should tell us all something about how brave and macho they are.
That not withstanding, it's clear that neither clayton or R68A understands that what they've done is wrong or irrisponsible. It's also clear that jtainloser is just as much a loser as the other two. Their illiterate posts lead me to the obvious conclusion. First, there kids need to spend more time doing school work and less time spewing their kiddy litter here. Second, none of the three are worthy of my time or energy.
Effective immediately, I will no longer respond to any post made by these kids nor will I waste my time responding to any post made in response to one of their posts. I would also urge others to do likewise and ignore them until these three kids either grow up or, if my predictions are correct, get paroled.
Don't bother with the three stooges, you guys do a splendid job of moving NYC 24/7.
First of all, that is blatent Ageism and if you were any sort of responsible adult you would maybe try to teach these kids something (the horror) instead of blocking them out.
Once, I was about to yell at Keystone Pete over one of his posts that made him sound like some sort of clueless moron. I then learned that he was only 14 and simply didn't know any better. It wasn't his fault that he lacked the experiance to know basic facts and instead of yelling at him I took the time to explain things and in the end I think he learned something.
Once, I was about to yell at Keystone Pete over one of his posts that made him sound like some sort of clueless moron. I then learned that he was only 14 and simply didn't know any better.
You got your Petes confused, Mike; Keystone Pete was 14 twenty years ago, and doesn't post clueless messages. You're thinking of Railfan Pete.
Thank you, I really bad with names.
Mike, if one person calls you a jackass, you ignore it. If two people call you a jackass, you ignore it. When 3 people call you a jackass, you better start looking for a saddle. Despite the fact that virtually everyone has said that what they did was childish, dangerous, provocative and wrong, they insist that there was nothing wrong with kicking the bottle. No mike, I once again have to disagree with you. It's not blatant ageism it's blatant assholeism.
Come on Dude, stop beating around the bush--tell us how you really feel. Good post TD. Sometimes it takes a long while for something to sink in but it usually does. Hope you're having a good day.
Having been one for over 20 years, I do not think transit workers deserve to be called "Punk-Ass" or "Bitch-Ass" or any of the other derogatory terms that the three stooges have used here.
My father has been a transit employee for almost just as long as you. Obviously, I was not referring to ALL transit employees. Rather the ones who fit the title.
The fact that little clayton & his friend ran from a "punk-ass" conductor should tell us all something about how brave and macho they are.
They are 16. Bravery and Machismo are not something that they should possess, especially when dealing with a fully-developed adult.
That not withstanding, it's clear that neither clayton or R68A understands that what they've done is wrong or irrisponsible.
No, it wasn't.
It's also clear that jtainloser is just as much a loser as the other two.
Right. Everything I used was credible, but because it contradicted you, I'm a looser. Good job.
Their illiterate posts lead me to the obvious conclusion.
Wrongly using the word illiterate only proves your own illiteracy.
First, there kids need to spend more time doing school work and less time spewing their kiddy litter here.
So, our opinions are worthless because we are under the age of 18. That's like saying our opinions are worthless because we are of a certain race, or because we are of a certain gender or because we are of a certain religion.
Second, none of the three are worthy of my time or energy.
All of what I posted on this topic was completely relevant. You simply had no way to respond to it without insulting me. That includes your bigoted statement against poor people.
Effective immediately, I will no longer respond to any post made by these kids nor will I waste my time responding to any post made in response to one of their posts.
"Kids are a waste of time. Their opinions are all garbage and we should not impart any knowledge onto them. Let them run dirty and filthy in the streets." That sound good to you?
-----------------------
I don't usually agree with Jersey Mike. Some stuff he says is not true, and plus, he's from Jersey (eww, gross). But what he said about your post is right, and I totally agree with him.
Your attitude is EXACTLY like the one in old days:
Women are stupid, and their opinions are worthless. Don't let them vote, and lock them in the house. That's their place.
Minorities don't have a brain. They aren't as good as us! Put them to work in the field!
Kids aren't worth anything. Ignore them.
What's even more sickening is that another poster agreed with you. I find that disturbing.
But, it's all good Train Dude. I'll be 18 in less than 2 months. Then I'll be an adult, and you can talk to me again! Yipee!!!
What do you expect, if you don't agree with THE Train Dude, he'll abolish contact with you as well! So you better agree with him!
That's my policy too. I read the posts here quite often, but no longer respond quite as often. Lots of immature and not well thought out posts seems to abound here lately. I refuse to respond to stupidity. With 12/15/02 just one month away, and newbies about to post more anti transit worker sentiments, at a certain point I will take a complete haitus from this board till the contract is settled.
I would hope that TWU members and managers alike mutually elect not to mount media campaigns to coincide with new contract negotiations. Sentiment for a strike is not very high now but with press-bolstered egos - it won't take much for positions on both sides to harden. I hope that will not happen.
If you read back, I have yet said anything against transit workers except the C/R of that day. Clayton and Jtrainloco do not represent me and never have. My original post here was to explain the conduct of the C/R. There are tons of worse people riding public transit, then again there are better ones. I haven't given anyone any hard times who work for the system I've loved for the past 12+ years and haven't intended to do so. Kicking the bottle out of the way in the train station is just like as if it rolled to you on the train. Probably even more dangerous. I certainly didn't mean to have it go anywhere but away that day and it was nearly impossible for it to do so. If anything, it would've glided off the side of the train. But the C/R of that day? I was hoping he retain more control especially when he nor anyone else was in danger. As from the start, I have no hard feelings for any transit worker including him anymore. I just wish the situation didn't happen the way it did.
Thank you! That said - I'll accept your remarks in the spirit in which I hope they were meant.
That not withstanding, it's clear that neither clayton or R68A understands that what they've done is wrong or irrisponsible.
I agree, they don't. Some people actually have integrity and only understand that they are wrong when they actually are!
I've never seen the word irrisponsible before, so I can't comment on that. Does it have any relationship to its homonym irresponsible?
It's also clear that jtainloser is just as much a loser as the other two.
You seem to know a lot about what it takes to be a loser. I'm sure your quite skilled in that arena.
Their illiterate posts lead me to the obvious conclusion.
Oh right, people who do not subscribe to your ideas and agree with you at every step of the way are like that because they can't read. That explains a lot! Jtrainloco can't read! He can post coherent, logical posts with correct grammar and spelling, but he can't even read his own posts!
This according to TRAIN DUDE, GOD OF ALL KNOWLEDGE
Remember to use your power risponsibly oh great one.
First, there kids need to spend more time doing school work and less time spewing their kiddy litter here.
Children should be seen and not heard, their brains are too feeble to participate in great adult discussions, especially those where TRAIN DUDE, GOD OF ALL KNOWLEDGE is a participant.
Before we go on, we better get rid of all them feeble minded womens and colored folks too!
Second, none of the three are worthy of my time or energy.
It must be nice living in a world where anybody whose ideas aren't a carbon copy of yours are just ignored. It's probably a good thing for relieving the stress you get from being TRAIN DUDE, GOD OF ALL KNOWLEDGE
Effective immediately, I will no longer respond to any post made by these kids nor will I waste my time responding to any post made in response to one of their posts.
What about posts in response to post made in response to posts made by these "kids?" Enjoy Subtalk. Look out for those tumbleweeds.
I would also urge others to do likewise and ignore them until these three kids either grow up
Because its very dangerous talking to people more mature than TRAIN DUDE, GOD OF ALL KNOWLEDGE
or, if my predictions are correct, get paroled.
Since R-68A and Clayton have said they are 16, they have two years before their 18 year sentences end. J Trainloco has 2 months as he pointed out.
Until then they'll have to deal with closed minded fools like you who choose not to respect people solely because they've failed to travel 10,518,052,202 miles since birth.
And I will continue to fight for those with fewer than 10,518,052,202 miles and those, like me, who have fewer than 12,271,060,903 Frequent Orbital Miles.
>>> And I will continue to fight for those with fewer than 10,518,052,202 miles <<<
Yeah, and I can still remember those long ago days when I didn't trust anyone over 30. :-)
Tom
Yeah, and I can still remember those long ago days when I didn't trust anyone over 30. :-)
Heck! I remember when I didn't trust anyone over 12! LOL
Elias
>>> And I will continue to fight for those with fewer than 10,518,052,202 miles <<<
Yeah, and I can still remember those long ago days when I didn't trust anyone over 30. :-)
Tom
I've never distrusted people who have gone more than 17,530,087,007 miles just because of their well travelled status, but I don't trust ANYONE who feels that he is better suited than I am to make my decisions for me.
You know, piggy, I've never really cared much for you. Actually, I never really cared one way or another. I've always been content to let others disagree with you - never feeling that debating with you was worth my time. I still don't intend to engage you or debat with you over anything - especially with this issue. As I've said, if anyone thinks that these delinquents were correct to kick a bottle at a moving train, if anyone thinks that it was not stupid, if anyone thinks that it was not reckless, then that person is not worth my time.
Now you can be a condescending smart-ass all you want. You can go through your mental masturbation and spell-check everything I post. Whatever floats your boat. However, I do take issue with this remark:
"Before we go on, we better get rid of all them feeble minded womens and colored folks too!"
Now I realize that one of the time-tested tactics of the left is to brand people as racist to put them on the defensive. We're not going to play that game, piggy! Document ont thing that I've ever said on subtalk that even hints in any way that I'm a racist. Document it piggy or show yourself for the slimey little weasel that you are.
As for the "TRAIN DUDE, GOD OF ALL KNOWLEDGE", all I can say is when it comes to the main subject of this board, compared to you, the truest words are spoken in jest.
Hey guys, come on now. No one out there can tell me with a straight face that kicking a bottle at a moving train is ok. It's not only stupid, it's downright dangerous, and if those of you who want to give those assholes a pass on this think it is ok, please take a look in the mirror and try for a makeover. This is one item we all should agree on I would think.
NOBODY DELIBERATELY KICKED A BOTTLE A TRAIN.
None of you want to pay attention. According to R68As own description, the bottle was between the stairs and the edge of the platform. Would you bend down to pick something up in a narrow passage next to a moving train? Would you just let it sit there so someone could trip over it?
A plastic bottle could be flattened, nudged, picked up, or kicked. Whether accidentally or purposely, it was kicked, and it happened to land in the time frame the conductor spotted it coming at him. The smartest thing to do would have been to say "I'm sorry, didn't mean to do that". Accidents do happen, and since the conductor was arriving in the station, he may not have witnessed all of Mr 5200's actions, except the bottle flying after the fact and a bunch of kids standing there. Few here have even bothered to look at this through the conductor's eyes, or even assumed what the conductor actually viewed. If you had a bullet whiz by you, and you turn around and saw me holding a smoking gun barrel, wouldn't you become defensive? If he had enough clearance to stand in this area, he could have done something safer with that bottle. Instead, he came here looking for advice on whether or not to write up the conductor. It doesn't seem like he attempted anything to diffuse the situation. Since he posted in 409884 he will do something about the conductor the next time he comes out of his cab, it is apparent he hasn't learned anything either.
The smartest thing to do would have been to say "I'm sorry, didn't mean to do that".
R68A did apologize, check out 406933, the conductor responded to the apology sarcastically.
he may not have witnessed all of Mr 5200's actions, except the bottle flying after the fact and a bunch of kids standing there.
So somehow if it had been a bunch of 30 year olds it would have been different?
If you had a bullet whiz by you, and you turn around and saw me holding a smoking gun barrel, wouldn't you become defensive?
There's a difference between defensive and chasing after people for a minor infraction. Sure, the conductor has a right to be angry, but unless malicious intent was shown, he has to cool down.
Also, bad metaphor. Plastic bottles might pose a danger to some extent, but not nearly as much as a bullet.
If he had enough clearance to stand in this area, he could have done something safer with that bottle.
It's already been established that there was no clearance.
Instead, he came here looking for advice on whether or not to write up the conductor. It doesn't seem like he attempted anything to diffuse the situation.
He obviously felt threatened by the conductor. If you saw a big angry man yelling at and chasing you, wouldn't you be a little afraid?
Since he posted in 409884 he will do something about the conductor the next time he comes out of his cab, it is apparent he hasn't learned anything either.
What is he supposed to learn? That when your elders approach violence you're supposed to take it and not do anything about it?
Ok, so you're saying that ALL the kids who are under 18 have no sense in what they are saying here. I am 17 going on 18 and I don't post irresponsible posts like some people here; look at all my posts and see for yourself. Don't get me wrong "Train Dude", I am proud of your long tenure as a transit worker but if they are being irresponsible to you, SET AN EXAMPLE! But don't get snotty b/c of your experience then that makes you act like a kid. There are adults who post trash on this board as well and I agree, I don't respond to trash either but don't say ALL the under 18 kids post garbage!!
>>"First, there kids need to spend more time doing school work and less time spewing their kiddy litter here. Second, none of the three are worthy of my time or energy.
Effective immediately, I will no longer respond to any post made by these kids nor will I waste my time responding to any post made in response to one of their posts. I would also urge others to do likewise and ignore them until these three kids either grow up or, if my predictions are correct, get paroled."<<
If you don't want to post to "Jtrainloco", "R68A5200" and "Clayton", that's all you just don't bother have to do but you should tell THEM that in separate posts and don't think you're too good for people. I think that is real immature if you don't respond to a post started by someone other than these 3 and not respond b/c they posted on a subject.
BTW, if I'm not being too personal, I would like to know all the under 18 posters on this website.
"Ok, so you're saying that ALL the kids who are under 18 have no sense in what they are saying here."
Can you possibly show me anything that I sag that would indicate that those were my thoughts or feelings? If you can, I will explain or apologize.
I was referring to two (then 3) individuals who had either committed a stupid, reckless act, made inappropriate and derogatory remarks about TA employees and generally sounded like street punks.
In fact you've cut and pasted my exact remarks:""Effective immediately, I will no longer respond to any post made by these kids nor will I waste my time responding to any post made in response to one of their posts."
I have no age prejudices what so ever. I was referring to one group of people who happen to be kids related to one incident.
whew!!!! this is giving me a headache!!! you guys going at each other like that will prove one of two things....That you guys are going forthe knock out blow,or 2,that youi guys are going for the knock out blow!!!! Let it die.... it's useless and a waste of time, now,for both sides.
I just post around here, and I have no idea who you were until this came up. Just to tell you know, thanks for letting me know you exist.
Ah god damn, I dunno how that happened. Nothing against you, Flatbush41, but this post was meant as a reply to Train Dude's original post. Chances are though, this post is already buried within the archives already...
When is the next foamer fan trip? i bet they could sell a lot more tickets if one car of the train was set up with a steel cage and some metal folding chairs to settle this whole thing once and for all.
who needs wrestling when you got subtalk?
Well, the democritters have decided to take their convention elsewhere. Could it be because NY didn't elect mr. McCall?
Actually, according to The New Republic, it's for an even weaslier reason:
It seems that New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg refused (Terry) McAuliffe's demand over dinner on Monday to stop courting the Republican National Convention if he wanted to host the Dems. As a result, the chairman played the only card he had and turned to Boston, which was all-too-happy to meet the chairman's condition. Could this be any more backward? It should be McAuliffe who caters to the interests of New York, not the other way around. McAuliffe may have trouble remembering--he demonstrated as much during the campaign--but New York City lost 3,000 citizens in a horrific terrorist attack last year. At the very least, one would think he'd want to convene the party in New York as a gesture of solidarity.
Instead the Republicans will now have an opportunity to swoop into Madison Square Garden and re-nominate President Bush, stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Mayor-of-America, Rudy Giuliani, remind the country of their party's prohibitive advantage on national security, and demonstrate unwavering vigilance in the pursuit of terrorists and despots by the mere fact of their presence in the still-wounded city. Way to bargain, Terry!
This is from a magazine run by Marty Peretz, one of Al Gore's main backers both financially and ideologically, and it may or may not be right. There have been a couple of other explanations out there -- McAuliffe is mad at Bill and Hillary, the Kennedys and Clintons are fighting for the soul of the party, etc., But it does seem like a pretty clueless maneuver unless the fix is already in for Masachusetts Senator John Kerry to be the 2004 presidential nominee, and they want a hometown celebration for the convention.
If the Republicans do their work well and the country rebounds into a decent economy and if the war on terror is going well, all ifs but certainly possible, then New York will host the convention that will select the next President of the United States, which happens to be the current one. I do hope the GOP selects New York as its convention site, after all the people did elect a Republican as Mayor in an otherwise overwhelmingly Democratic city, and the greatest metropolis on earth can use a much needed shot in the arm. The President helping to pick NY as the place for their convention will tell the world that New York is tops and is back where it belongs on the top of the heap. If the GOP picks another city I'm afraid I would be very pissed off at my party. New York deserves it.
Spurning NYC is consistent with Democratic Party policy -- screw you supporters to pursue swing voters. Why they chose Boston, and not some suburb of some southern state, is all I don't understand.
Of course, to be consistent with its policy, the Republican Party should spurn NYC as well.
First, I don't think that NYC needs another event. NYC already gets most of the big events and with those darned Yankees 4 of the last 5 World Series. So just going by plain fairness NYC should maybe stop being so greedy. THIS GOES FOR YOU TOO LA!
Second, I think, if this is the case, that the Democrats would be perfectly justified in punishing NYC for all of its recent disloyalty (Bloomberg, Pataki, etc).
Third, due to our winning track record, the Democrats should have chosen Philly for their convention or at least some sort of battleground city. You know, something than the other than the biggest democratic bastion on Earth.
Good point. Especially when you consider that Boston will probably never get another World Series in their town.
Well at least things are back to normal. I happen to disagree with you. It is one thing to host a World Series because you have to earn your way there. A convention is a selective process and that means you are the object of special affection and special privilege, and if New York does not deserve it because of all she has witnessed over the past year, then no other city deserves it. The party in power selecting New York will be a popular move, even among Democrats, and I may not be a Democrat, but they are smart enough not to try and punish New York for voting the other way. They know democracy works that way, and if their party does its work well, they can get New York back in their column down the road.
When we can stop fawning over NYC and its "loss" we can then truely rebuild. As a non-NYC resident I think that a year of NYC getting all of the nation's pitty was more than enough. NYC should buck up and stop being a mooch.
Furthermore, having a convention in NYC is trying to use cheap emotionalism to win an election. I find such tactics reprehensiable and I am glad that the democrats have taken the high ground.
Philadelphia would have been a much better choice than Boston!
Democrats gaing nothing by going to Taxacheusetts other than a friendly launching pad for Bob Kerry's Presidential bid. The commonwealth will go to the Democratic candidate no matter who's running or where the convention is held. That surety is not present in Pennsylvania. Never had been, never will be. The state is too diverse. (Thank God Philadelphia and Pittsburgh saved us from being Pennsyltucky...but, I digress...)
Not only should Democrats reward Pennsylvania for turning over the Governor's Mansion and at least one hotly contested congressional (re-)district to their party, it also makes better strategic sense.
Although my former home-state of Pennsylvania has 2 Republican Senators (from 2 different generations), the Commonwealth is always up-for-grabs in federal and state-wide elections. We (sorry, they) just elected the first pro-choice Governor in decades, also breaking the "Philadelphia Curse" (no gubernatorial candidate from Philadelphia has won in bazillions of years), but keeping the tradition of flip-flopping between Democrats and Republicans occupying the residence on 2nd Street. The Republican candidate for Governor was a cipher, and, like usual, Pennsylvanians voted where the (relative) quality was. The legislature, on the other hand, is solidly Republican. The heavily contested, new PA 17th in the House was a nail-biter between 2 incumbents, one a Democrat and one G.O.P., with the Dem eeking it out. (The G.O.P. legislature made an overt effort to ensure a Republican win there which failed!)
Philadelphia or Pittsburgh would have been a wiser venue. Heck, even Harrisburg is no stranger to Presidential nominating conventions. (Okay, so it was about 100 years ago. Hotel space wasn't a big concern then, I guess...)
Harrisburg?!
Being a Brit, one of the things that has surprised me has been just how dreary places state capitals are. Philadelphia is a much more interesting city than Harrisburg. Almost anywhere is more interesting than Albany. About the only thing I can remember about my visit to Albany is the theater?/auditorium? that looks like a football ready to be kicked (maybe Selkirk can tell me what I was looking at).
I haven’t visited all 50 states, and I will concede that Austin TX was quite pretty, but can anyone tell me a truly interesting capital?
John
"but can anyone tell me a truly interesting capital?"
Boston.
Amen to that! In fact I'm planning a little trip up to Boston this week. Gotta do some T riding while I'm there.
Harrisburg, PA is where I originally grew up, and It has evolved into a thriving city in the middle of Pennsyltuckey. The Harrisburg Metro area has about 500,000 residents, and the city has a burgeoning nighlife, cultural, and restaurant scene. For a city of 50,000 and 11 sq. miles, it has an enormous downtown. Harrisburg has more skyscrapers than most of the larger cities in Pennsylvania (except Pittsburgh and Philly, of course). Harrisburg has one of the finest state capital buildings in the world, and has a huge art community...not to mention a very sizable gay and lesbian community.
Austin, TX is a very liberal city in the middle of redneck paradise, and sounds like a great place.
Wanna hear a boring capital? My vote goes out to Concord, New Hampshire; Augusta, Maine; Montpelier, Vermont; Helena, Montana; Pierre, South Dakota; and there are some other off-the-wall places.
Jefferson City, Missouri.
Surprised you would give such a resounding endorsement of Harrisburg, PA. If memory serves me well it is a strong Republican area. Just thought I'd mention that.
The City of Harrisburg is a strong Democratic area, but its the surrounding area thats full of GOP Redneck types. I think in the last mayoral election in Harrisburg, incumbent Stephen Reed (D) got the endorsements of both major parties, and the Green party candidate got 20% of the vote. Harrisburg city is enormously Democratic, it's an island of liberalism in the middle of an area comparable to rural Alabama.
I guess then when you lived in Harrisburg you didn't particularly like venturing into the suburbs. I would have been very comfortable doing that, though. But redneck? Nah, not me, just a good Republican convert. Just for the record, in both Junior College and at my Alma Mater I was a member of the Young Democrats, and was Sergeant-at-Arms for the organization. That was long ago.
>>> just a good Republican convert. Just for the record, in both Junior College and at my Alma Mater I was a member of the Young Democrats, and was Sergeant-at-Arms for the organization. That was long ago. <<<
Gee, Fred, Reagan started out as a good Democratic labor union man. I hope you are not following in his path. Some say his conversion to Republicanism was the first sign of his later health problems. :-)
Tom
Oh, you kid. Well Reagan had many good years of health from the time he actually changed his registration in 1962 until he announced he had Alzheimers Disease in 1994, so it couldn't have been his sea change in politics that caused his trouble. As for me, who knows. I just got back from the high school weight room where I worked out for an hour and 20 minutes----weights, leg work and walking. Who knows? You could look ok on the outside and be deteriorating inside. Remember JFK? He looked the picture of perfect health and Viiigggaaaa. but we all know he wasn;t healthy at all. You never know. But it's good to know you're concerned about my well being.
Santa Fe, N.M. is ane interesting state capitol, since it's also become a major tourist destination in its own right over the past 50 years due to its surrounding Native American and Mexican-American cultures (the elevation also helps, since it keeps it above the desert southwest heat in the summer and near a lot of ski resorts in the winter).
The growth of both government and Texas' decision to center it's high-tech industries in Austin in the 1980s has made that city's traffic situation a freakin' nightmare. There are still a lot of nice places to go, but don't try driving anywhere in a hurry, and the ongoing contradiction between the city planners (build no highway loop around town) and residents in the surrounding area (we're not paying for no damned light rail), means going from Point A to Point B has to be thought out well in advance, and certainly much longer than it should take in a city and surrounding area of 750,000.
Chris,
I couldn't have written a better endorsement of my home metro-area. Truth-be-told, I actually grew up on the West Shore (of the Susquehanna River, for those not familiar). Fortunately, my town's school district decided to thumb its nose at the rest during the mass consolidations in the 1950's and remained small, affording me a top-notch education which was fairly progressive. Though the town is very insular and quite snobbish (read: white), my teachers never let a drop of predjudice influence their teachings, nor were we indoctrinated with conservative dogma by the school. The Young Republicans had a (lazy) chapter at the school. I was one of a handful of TADs (Teenage Democrats), which was equally apathetic, yet aware of their contrasting views with the YR's. I did have friends who would utter racial epithets or make tasteless jokes on occassion. My parents brought me up not to do such things, so I tried my best not to join in the "fun." Besides, I think the Republicanism in the area is the more fiscal kind for the most part, although I did know (and dated one) a few Christian Conservatives too. I suspect most of the kids I knew grew out of their ignorance once they went to college, even if they did return to the area afterward. At least I hope so.
I can't remember another mayor besides Mayor-for-life Reed, who is extremely popular not just with the city residents, but also some of those in the immediate suburbs, who vote Republican for their own representation. Personally, I think Mayor Reed deserves every accolade and election he gets. He's done a great deal for the city, establishing and keeping the Senators baseball team, building the Whitaker Center for the Arts, to name just two of the most visible and yet diverse accomplishments.
Harrisburg has the misfortune of being too-small a Democratic island in the middle of Republica, so its influence can't overcome in most greater-than-city elections.
I've read recent articles in the Patriot-News about how the recent hipness of 2nd Street is starting to garner a backlash. Harrisburgers have a weird aversion to anything "city." All you have to do is compare Harrisburg to New York for the fear-mongers to start beating the war-drums. "Don't New Yorkify Harrisburg!" The fact that the nightlife has begun to thrive is miraculous given the vast number of mid-staters who simply like to stay home and have "quiet." I hope the downtown revitalization trend continues. Last time I was home, I had a big-city quality meal (at a near big-city price) at a Ron Jaworski co-owned bar & grill on 2nd Street. When I was growing up, downtown was dead at night. My mom was in the symphony, and I had odd jobs downtown, so my family was one of a very few who ever had reason to venture downtown outside business hours. Strawberry Square (downtown shopping mall) was a ghost-town, and there were no other street fronting shops or restaurants. The local touring theatre and sports teams were in Hershey. What a difference a couple of decades makes!
-Keystone Pete
Columbus, Ohio is the biggest city in Ohio, and probably the most culturally advanced.
What about Cleveland or Cincinatti? Aren't those both bigger?
No
According to infoplease.com....
Columbus: 711,470 people
Cleveland: 478,403 people
Cincinnati: 311,285 people
These cities are ranked first, second, and third in size, respectively, for the state of Ohio. When I think of Ohio cities, I think of Cleveland and Cincinnati before Columbus...it's sort of misleading.
According to infoplease.com....
Columbus: 711,470 people
Cleveland: 478,403 people
Cincinnati: 311,285 people
These cities are ranked first, second, and third in size, respectively, for the state of Ohio. When I think of Ohio cities, I think of Cleveland and Cincinnati before Columbus...it's sort of misleading.
If you compare metropolitian areas, however, Cleveland and Cincinnati are larger than Columbus, Cleveland in particular being much larger. That's because a much larger percentage of the Columbus metro area is within city limits.
>>> Columbus, Ohio is the biggest city in Ohio, and probably the most culturally advanced. <<<
But it is still in Ohio; and it does not have a Rock ‘n Roll Hall of Fame, like the city on the lake.
You could say the same about Indianapolis with regard to Indiana also.
Tom
The goal was to ensure that ALL citizens of a state were represented fairly. If the legislature were in the largest city, the laws would tent to have a pro-city slant. The capitals were chosen usually for either a centralized location and/or for some sort of percieved neutrality. The same reasoning holds for Washington DC.
Back in the day there was real fiction between city and country folk. Also, as being from England you well know, London went for long periods of time w/ no Mayor because the Mayor of London (or Paris) could tend to sieze power in various forms from time to time. Putting the state capitol in some basically designated capitol city prevented charismatic locals from having too much control in the entire government.
Some state capitals are downright small. Montpelier, VT is probably smaller than New Paltz, basically a small town built mostly on a single "main street". Carson City, NV is a longish strip. Piere, SD is smaller than Sioux Falls or Rapid City, and both of those were like ghost towns to my eyes.
:-) Andrew
Some state capitals are downright small. Montpelier, VT is probably smaller than New Paltz, basically a small town built mostly on a single "main street". Carson City, NV is a longish strip. Piere, SD is smaller than Sioux Falls or Rapid City, and both of those were like ghost towns to my eyes.
Yet there are also several state capitals which are the largest and most important cities in their respective states. Boston, Atlanta, Denver, Phoenix, Providence, Indianpolis, Salt Lake City, Des Moines, Boise, Honolulu, Jackson, and Little Rock are examples of these. More debatable cases include Nashville, Columbia, Hartford, and Oklahoma City. St. Paul, Lincoln, Baton Rouge, Montgomery and Richmond are capitals that are the second most important cities in their states.
I think there are two explanations for all of this. One is the anti-city attitude that Americans have traditionally had.
The other was the desire to put the capital in the middle of the state, while the most important city tends to be a port located on the edge, on the ocean, river or Great Lakes. Examples:
NY vs. Albany
Phil vs. Harrisburg
Savanah vs. Atlanta (Savanna was bigger at the time)
Detroit and Lansing.
Chicago and Springfield
St. Louis and Jefferson City
Cleveland and Columbus
New Orleans & Baton Rouge
Newark and Trenton
Milwaukee vs. Madison
Houston v.s Austin
In each case, the largest city is on the edge of the state, and the capital is in a smaller city closer to the center.
In most the cases of capitals in the largest cities Atlanta, Denver, Phoenix, Providence, Indianpolis, Salt Lake City, Des Moines, Boise, Honolulu, Jackson, and Little Rock -- you have large cities in the center of the state. Boston is exceptional. If Mass. had followed the pattern, Worchester would be the state capital.
>>> you have large cities in the center of the state <<<
Honolulu does not follow that model. It is a large city, but it is not centered on Oahu, or the total land mass of the state. Neither Boise nor Salt Lake City are in the centers of their respective states either.
Tom
Many states have moved their capital city over the years. New York has had at least three capital cities (NYC, Kingston, and Poughkeepsie) besides Albany, maybe more; North Carolina moved their capital from New Bern to Raleigh; Virginia moved theirs from Jamestown to Williamsburg to Richmond.
Boston is exceptional. If Mass. had followed the pattern, Worchester would be the state capital.
Massachusetts politicians would never stand for it. By remaining in Boston, they can pretend that all the gas and hot air is coming from the beans :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse (great great ... great-grandson of Gov. John Leverett of Massachusetts [1673-1679])
"Virginia moved theirs from Jamestown to Williamsburg to Richmond."
Not as a state, though. As a colony, because Williamsburg wasn't defensible against the British.
Not as a state, though. As a colony, because Williamsburg wasn't defensible against the British.
The move from Jamestown to Williamsburg (then known as Middle Plantation) was during the Colonial era - 1699, to be exact - but the move to Richmond came in 1780, four years after the Declaration of Independence. As you indicated, though, it was partially for reasons of defense; it was also a move closer to the geographic center of the state, yet still on a navigable waterway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse (former Williamsburg resident, 1976-1978)
Anon, how is it going in North Carolina. The people came through and elected Liddy Dole. Have you ridden any subways since we tooled up in August? I hear from Marty often; sends me pictures of my Sea Beach. Hope all is well.
I was in the City on the seventh... rode the rebuilt line down to South Ferry and caught a Rustbird on the 5 from Bowling Green, among other things... Jr. and I were doing our Chanukah shopping (he had a couple of days off school while the teacher's union had their annual convention at one of the casinos in Atlantic City). Been to Branford more lately though. Haven't made it home to NC lately, but my wife's down there right now... I rode as far as the DC area with her last Thursday, spent the evening there with our younger daughter, and came back Friday morning on Amtrak to Newark and then NJT down the NJCL.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well have a happy Chanukah. Is it around the same time as our Christman this year or a little earlier? Have a good one.
Hanukkah falls quite early this year, right after Thanksgiving.
:-) Andrew
>>> More debatable cases include Nashville, Columbia, Hartford, and Oklahoma City. <<<
But Hartford is not the largest city in Connecticut anymore. Bridgeport is. But you can debate its importance, no doubt.
Montpelier is the smallest state capital in the United States. According to infoplease.com, the 1990 population was 8,247.
How about Providence?
If you want an interesting state capital, try Juneau, Alaska! There's a glacier right outside town, wonderful hiking, and great salmon to eat. Plus, you're never far from humpback whales, and you can watch seaplanes landing in the Gastineau channel right in front of downtown.
Mark
Juneau is also the only US State Capital that is only accessible by boat or by air. No roads lead into or out of Juneau.
That is very true...I travelled there on a boat and left by plane. Granted, the roads that lead away from Honolulu don't go very far... :)
Mark
Salmon? Did someone say salmon? And I thought I wasn't hungry. Just the thought of that delicious piece of culinary delight even makes me forget how much I despise Hillary Clinton. I could eat it every day, and sometimes I do. I'm eating some tomorrow. You got my attention with that post my boy.
Salmon? Did someone say salmon? ... I could eat it every day, and sometimes I do.
Makes two of us... smoked Nova lox, sliced so thin it only has one side, layered gently on a bed of cream cheese that's been spread generously on an onion and garlic bagel :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon, you lost me when you mentioned onion. Hasn't anyone clued you in about my fear and loathing of that vegetable. It is so bad that if you forced me to stare at an onion for more than a minute, watch out, I would probably heave. I tried that twice and both times I did. Physically, psychologically, spiritually, I can't stand that food. I've learned to say no onions in several languages in case I have to travel.
Italian----Sena Capulla
French=====pase de onneion
Spanish-----No savoia
German-----eunit zweibel
The spelling might be wrong but certainly not the message.
"German-----eunit zweibel"
Careful - you're closer to saying "one onion" (eine zwiebel) than "without onions" (ohne zwiebel).
Thanks! I'll have to remember that when I visit Germany someday. I have never been to Berlin and want to see it, maybe even visit the bunker, or what's left of it to see just where that madman did the world a favor six years late.
I also want to visit Nuremberg, the toy capital, a real medieval city that was completely rebuilt. I heard right next to where the Nazis had their party rallies there is a baseball field for the kids to play on. Cool. Oh yes, I will definately have to visit the old Palace of Justice where Hitler's henchmen were brought to trial====which opened 57 years ago today on November 20, 1945.
No onions. Period. If my language is hard to follow, certinaly my hand gestures and facial expressions will do the job.
One more for you:
Portuguese >> Sem cebola
I like onions, BTW :-)
Sem Cebola? OK, I have to put that one in my well as well. BTW, did you vote for Saxby Chambliss and Sonny Perdue. A great day for my party in the one state where we hadn't really broken through until this past November 5.
Anon, you lost me when you mentioned onion. Hasn't anyone clued you in about my fear and loathing of that vegetable.
Why do you think I mentioned it? :-) But it's true, I like the "everything" bagel, which has onions, garlic, poppy and sesame seeds, and heaven knows what else on it. A little something for all tastes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yep, I said salmon. I locked the keys inside my rental car (which I couldn't leave town in, since no roads leave Juneau, remember) and when my fiance and I went into the small grocery store where we were stuck to use the phone, the cleck gave us some salmon that her husband had just caught and smoked. It was well worth locking my keys in the car! The owner of the store told us that he could pull salmon out of the waters there one after the other with a fishing pole. I can only drool when I think about it.
Mark
I have got to go up there and see for myself. Sounds like culinary heaven.
(Thank God Philadelphia and Pittsburgh saved us from being Pennsyltucky...but, I digress...)
I thought it would be Pennsylbama. Doesn't the old joke go that Pennsylvania is made up of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between?
Sadly, there are many "jokes" pertaining to this situation. That's another one!
Your political a knowledge is a bit skewed, mike. NY City did not support Pataki. I think he got 34% of the NY City vote. As for Bloomberg, he's actually a democrat ina republican suit.
As for Bloomberg, he's actually a democrat ina republican suit.
Well he certainly hasn't been acting like it. His plan to reduce upper bracket income tax and raise property tax is right out of the Republican playbook.
Do we really need more Political drivel?
C'mon guys, one person says, 'let's end this' it looks like the hole is about to be plugged, and then some other form of exriment pours forth. I regret posting into the "My parties better than your party" thread. Simply baiting some Dems to come and vent over the most recent Politburo style elections isn't gonna help any. And besides, like Jersey Mike said, doesn't NYC have enough on it's mind right now without trying to cram all the reporters (yes some media outlets actually are NOT based in New York), delagates, protesters, and the rest of the whole nine yards that comes with it?
I'm sick and friggin tired of this 'Wounded City' routine, Yeah sure you got a big hole, for all I care you could make it a landfill (heck, if the economy keeps going the right way, the building on it might never get built, perhaps the 'open-cut' syndrome will strike?) Yeah sure the Fed offers you money, where does it go? To Schenectady, that's where, nobody knows why. Hell, people send money from around the nation, it all ends up in the big NYC black hole of money, somewhere between the Second Ave Subway and 76st Station, or people complain because one group of victims families happens to get more money than another group. Hell, it'd have been easier if Osama just could have wrested one or two SS-19s from the russians, 2 to 5 500kt MIRVs airburst at 2000' ft, one ground or penetration burst, just for the fallout it'd make. The WTC would most certainly be gone, along with all the squabling families. Plus we'd be certain that Osama was dead now, mostly because Afganistan, along with signifigant portions of it's neighboring countries would be a glass-topped, glow-in-the-dark parking lot, not many caves can withstand a direct impact from a Mk21 Mirv off a LGM-118 Peacekeeper, hell, Cheyanne Mountain can't.
But what the hell, even if he got an ICBM, the guy probably would set them all to target the WTC, with a ground burst, ruin the effectiveness of the bombs (harlem and the bronx might survive if the attack centered on the WTC, all the buildings in Manhatten would screw up the direct-line of sight kills), screw all the fun you could have (umm from the terrorist POV) with EMPs and stuff.
Hey, I'd certainly get a dose from the MIRVs, I live in Philly, and while the Northern Atlantic clockwise flow would send most of the Fallout went north and east, to Boston, Nova Scotia, and on to Iceland and the Northern British Isles, if it was airburst, I'd certainly get some Direct line Gamma Rays and other fun stuff.
Hey CI Peter, how you like Nuclear now? Wow, I gotta go to bed, I think I just leaked a bit of excriment here, can't tell what party it's for though.
Okay I finally got a chance to watch the movie, now that my mom bought me a DVD player. Hey! They cut out the smashed train operators glass when they was about to turn that R-22 into a runaway!
That sucked. I guess they didn't want people to see how it was done. But I remember that part clearly to this very day. Great movie though. Does anyone on the board know of any other "train" movies on DVD? I want to start a collection for that rainy Sunday afternoon.
Dave
The front cab window was not broken out in the original Pelham 1-2-3. It WAS busted out in the remake, consistent with the novel. My guess is that the TA didn't like the idea of having a window busted out on a car still being used in revenue service. OTOH the Toronto cars used in the remake were scrapped as soon as the remake was finished, so TTC didn't care if the plot called for a window to be broken out.
The Warriors is available on DVD. So are Money Train, Nighthawks, and The French Connection.
Personally, I prefer the original.
So do I. The remake is not worth watching, IMHO.
I agree. The remake is very un-classy by comparison.
I also agree the remake sucked!
Dag! I honestly though they smashed that window, and rigged that master controller. Oh well...
I've come to realize that when ever I have a question, many times the answer is right here on this site, so here you go, the list of movies is endless:
NYCSubway.org's Movie Bibliography
One line which needs to be corrected in the Pelham notes is the car number on the R-17 at the end of the first train visible in the film. It's 6762, not 6609.
I caught that! Thanks. Oh you know at the beginning of the movie the lead car of the soon to be doomed train had to be an R-26 Thru R-33/36mainline set. Funny how it changed to an R-22 at 28 Street.:)
That's correct.
Did you see the gaffe at "Grand Central"? There are several, actually. The doors on that 6 train open to the right instead of to the left, there is a "ksssss" sound just before the doors open (the R-22s had electric doors), and 7339, the car used in many exterior shots, is seen across the platform coupled to an R-10!
Thanks!
The gang rigged up a series of pipes that had to go through a open or broken window in order to reach the master controller. I remember Robert Shaw asking Martin Balsam, "Is it going to come away clean?"
I have the DVD of the movie and it doesn't show any broken window.
Chuck Greene
What he meant was the train going to move without any problems.
Thanks, that sounds more resonable.
Chuck Greene
That rigging in the original Pelham didn't reach into the cab. The remake depicts the description in the novel much more faithfully. In the novel, a heavy iron mold is placed directly over the controller. Three lengths of pipe enable the user to rotate the controller far enough to get it into series. The first two lengths detached from the third length, which remained attached to the mold over the controller. The front window had to be broken out in order to join all the pipes together.
Other train movies are French Connection, Wild Style(recommended), The Warriors(seriously recommended), Night Hawks, Beat Street(if you can find it), and Dreams Don't Die( I'm still searching for this one). There are a lot of movies mentioned at nycsubway.org. Check out that site section.
According to signs posted at various East Side express stations, the 4 will be running local in both directions this weekend between 125th Street and Brooklyn Bridge. The 4 will be running in two segments, split at Brooklyn Bridge.
(I haven't seen any mention of the 5 anywhere. It can't be running through to Bowling Green -- whatever is forcing the split service on the 4 would also affect the 5. I'm guessing it'll terminate somewhere in the Bronx, or maybe at Brooklyn Bridge as well.)
So if you were planning a ride on the express this weekend, allocate some extra time. OTOH, if you were planning a ride on the local, you won't have to wait long for a train.
The most likely sceanrio would be the 4,5,6 all going through the loop.
I guess there will be single tracking through Bowling Green? We'll see.
-Stef
Wasn't 5 service reduced to "Bronx only" last time?
Yes it was. That was for Construction at 125th St. Damn, you responded fast!
-Stef
Gosh darn it! I just realized I'll be in the middle of that GO since I'm working till 2:40AM Saturday morning. I better find an alternative for getting to Wall St, otherwise I'll just sit tight.
-Stef
I had just accessed the index right after you posted, read your post and put in a short answer.
I'll bet they're hanging tile panels and power-washing the tile band if the work's going on at 125-Lex.
wayne
Hopefully someday we'll be reading about a GO on the Nassau St. line regarding Chambers St.
This weekend, J service is split at Essex. The south segment will be single-tracked (by necessity -- see the track map). This could be for work at Chambers, though it's more likely for work at Canal.
No.4,5,6 Trains will be on the same track from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge both directions. They did this G.O in June and it was a mess.
It bad, real bad last June and I do not ride the IRT much but happened to full into that GO without notice >G<.
Things are looking up for the R-142. STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
The problem is that the 100,000 mile target is too low because each failure takes 5 cars out of action instead of 2 for the retired redbird fleet. In order to get comparable figures the MDBF rate for the R-142's would have to be 2.5 times the rate for the retired redbirds. So, if the redbirds had a MDBF of 80,000-100,000 miles, before they stopped maintaining them, then the R-142's would require a MDBF of 200,000-250,000 miles to provide the same number of available cars. They still have a fairly long way to go before the fleet replacement breaks even availability-wise.
"The problem is that the 100,000 mile target is too low because each failure takes 5 cars out of action instead of 2 for the retired redbird fleet."
False statement if the problem car is in the middle of the set. If I recall correctly, the R142 can be run as A-A, A-B-A, ABBA, etc. So a B car malfunction requires a single car replacement.
If an A car malfunctions, a spare "A" must be available. However, the B cars, once the A is swapped on, can resume service.
While the swapping is a bit more complicated in these cars, you've (as usual) overstated the problem.
While the swapping is a bit more complicated in these cars, you've (as usual) overstated the problem.
I guess the ease with which cars cars can be swapped has not filtered down to the trenches.
Once again, you demonstrate your ability to crunch numbers like no one else on this board.
Stephen, that's not true except in your narrow interpretation of MDBF. But even your narrow interpretation is flawed. Your interpretation does not take into account car size. Shouldn't a larger car be weighted higher in the calculation than a smaller car because when the larger car is removed from service, the effect on service is greater? After all, that's what it's all about - putting asses into seats, right?
In reality, MDBF, as used by NYCT, is an index to compare the performance of 1 subway car to another, one shop to another or 1 fleet to another. It's also an index to show performance trends of a particular fleet, a particular shop or the fleet as a whole. You may not accept that but that's the way it is.
Shouldn't a larger car be weighted higher in the calculation than a smaller car because when the larger car is removed from service, the effect on service is greater? After all, that's what it's all about - putting asses into seats, right?
I believe so - what's your opinion?
I've already given my opinion many times. I'll happily give it again. MDBF is not a pure number. It's an indicator, not unlike the DOW or NASDAQ. It gives an indication of how well a fleet or shop is doing. What you are looking for is an index that ties performance to car availability. The problem with what you want, that sort of index would penalize a shop for performing program maintenance.
Have a problem with 1 car of a 2 car set and you lose 2 cars. Have a problem with 1 car of a 5 car set and you loose 5 cars.
Perhaps something between the two. What about a mult-part car availability index?
Part 1 - Total % available
Part 2 - % out for routine maintanence
Part 3 - % out for equipment failure
Total must equal 100%
Under the current system, 1 subway car = 1 subway car period. If 8 cars travel 50 miles, that's 400 car miles. The problem with your computation is that it does not reflect what MDBF is:
MDBF is the total number of fleet miles traveled in a given month by a fleet of cars divided by the number of charged delays due to mechanical failure in that same time period. MDBF can be computed for a single car, a single car class, a single shop fleet or the entire fleet.
Mr. Bauman's contention is that MDBF should be weighted according to the consist that car is in. For example, a delay involving a 5-car link should count 5 times more in the MDBF calculation than a single car failure does. The flaw in Mr. Bauman's protestation is that every charged delay to service related to car equipment does not require the train be removed from service. For example:
R-68 car 2534 has a door failure where 1 door will not close. The conductor goes back and pulls the door shut and then cuts it out. If this delays service , then DCE (Car Equipment) gets one charge ewven though car 2534 is part of a 4-car link & despite the fact that the train was not removed from service.
Now if the same condition occurred on car 6234 (a 2-car R-46 unit) it would still be one charge.
Now if the same condition occurred on a single car R-68 on the Franklin Shuttle - again, one charge.
Hence, in each case, 1 failure to 1 car = 1 charge. Under the bauman plan the R-46 would be charged twice and the R-68 link would be charged 4 times. Clearly, this would skew the data since the car availability was not compromised.
On the other side of the coin, if the defect required the train to be removed from service, the entire train is removed from service - not just the linked unit with the defect. Hence, again Mr. Bauman's data would be incorrectly skewed and would not reflect the reality of the situation.
Again, let me say that MDBF is not a pure number. It is only an index that enables management to compare car performance between fleets and between shops. It has many real loop-holes that neither yours or Mr. bauman's feelings do not take into account. My suggestion is that you accept MDBF numbers in the way you accept ERA as the measure of a pitcher's performance.
I do. But I was only suggesting that another index might prove useful.
I'm sure somewhere there are stats available so that if the number of cars out of service rise too much an alarm goes off.
Your argument completely ignores the concepts of spares and replacement. There are more operational cars in the fleet than are required for maximum service. Some of these spares are undergoing repair or maintenance but others are held in reserve to replace cars that break down.
The initial replacement will be on a train for train basis. However, such a policy will quickly deplete the spares. What is done to counter this is to make up new trainsets from the pool of good cars. If the R68's were still unlinked this would involve removing bad car 2345 and substituting a spare car 2543 into the trainset. Four cars will have to be removed from the spares pool, with the R68's linked into groups of 4.
This is not a problem, if the number of spares is large. There are two ways to "solve" the problem, if there are not a large number of spares. The first is to knowingly place defective cars into service. The second is to reduce service levels to those consistent with the current number of working spares. The first technique was extensively practiced during the deferred mainteneance days. The second technique is masquerades as car shortages. It manifests itself as decreased service levels during peak period. There are many examples of this today.
"Your argument completely ignores the concepts of spares and replacement"
Stephen, you are correct. My argument completely ignores the concept of spares and replacements. It does so for good reason. For the last time - it's not part of the MDBF equation.
MDBF is simply an index that shows car performance trends in individual cars, individual fleets, individual shops or the entire NYCT fleet. It was never meant to take into account spares and replacements. Let me repeat that so that you are perfectly clear about what I am saying. ,i>
MDBF was never meant to take into account spares and replacements.
Stephen, MDBF is what it is. It will remain so - unless, of course, you ascend to a position of power on the MTA Board. In the meantime, I have no interest in what you feel MDBF could be, would be or should be. That's only mental masturbation and that holds no interest for me.
MDBF is merely a measure of the average distance traveled by a group of cars before a failure of whatever kind or whatever cause can be expected to occur. Preventive Maintenance (PM) scheduling, however requires much more detailed information on the failure rate of each critical component. If the PM program is effective then this causes MDBF to increase but MDBF is the product of a maintenance program, not input data for a maintenance program. For instance, experience shows that say, a group switch has a certain service life. So the shop schedules change out and rebuild of group switches shortly before anticipated failure. This along with myriad other PM activities will allow the fleet to operate for a greater average distance before an in service failure which adversely affects subway system performance. MDBF, therfore is nothing more than a report card on a given group of cars' maintenance program. and is used at Jay St. for that purpose. However, every part of a subway car is monitored so that component failures can be anticipated and parts are changed out before road failure causes service disruption. Maintenance is ALWAYS better than repairs.
"Your argument completely ignores the concepts of spares and replacement"
Stephen, you are correct. My argument completely ignores the concept of spares and replacements. It does so for good reason. For the last time - it's not part of the MDBF equation.
MDBF is simply an index that shows car performance trends in individual cars, individual fleets, individual shops or the entire NYCT fleet. It was never meant to take into account spares and replacements. Let me repeat that so that you are perfectly clear about what I am saying.
MDBF was never meant to take into account spares and replacements.
Stephen, MDBF is what it is. It will remain so - unless, of course, you ascend to a position of power on the MTA Board. In the meantime, I have no interest in what you feel MDBF could be, would be or should be. That's only mental masturbation and that holds no interest for me.
Unca Steve: I really checked into this today....available parts do have a direct impact on MDBF when the trainset cannot be repaired. Remember when you asked me to look out for the two new CIs??? I know their MS and pulled him into the pit when I discovered the R142 I was doing propulsion service upon had a shattered axle brush assembly. With some parts and a few special tools (Helicoil inserts,) I could have fixed the problems with an hours O/T. Trainset has been out of RTO for a week for parts available from Auto Barn. TA knows how to save money!!! Trainset was replaced with reliable Redbirds. CI Peter
Parts do not affect MDBF.
Only two factors affect MDBF.
MDBF is mileage divided by the number of charged delays.
Anything else is incidental to what MDBF actually is.
Forgive me a stupid question, I'm a throwback to the days before speedos. Do trains have odometers now? Is there a tool to turn 'em back? :)
Unca Selkirk.....inspection reports display milage...that is how I know about trainsets I sunk. Milage in Redbirds is trackage estimated........R142s have an entirely different concept. System calibration and AAS is based upon wheel diameter and response to reluctance sensors driven by magnetic fields of 'gear toothing.'
Yeah, just read Dude's response on it as well. Sounds like it's time for someone to drop a suggestion in the yellow box and run like hell - "MWBP" ("Minutes Waited Between Parts") ... moo. :)
Actually, we use another index - average daily out of service. This takes into account:
Scheduled inspection
Programmed maintenance
Long-Term Holds
Average daily out of service for running repairs
Main Shop Holds
OK mates
Yep, I know how it goes in "quantification" in most agencies, Quantifying is the PRIME directive, thus I figured there was a measure there somewhere. I'm kinda fond of the Hub-O-Meter solution which would blow the Qwap out of MDBF ... for the benefit of those who don't know what this toy is, it's like one of those pedometers that runners use, mounted on an axle to estimate mileage driven on vehicles. Works great for buses and such but would be a genuine HOOT if used on subway trains since unlike buses, trains run half the trip in reverse which would cause the total mileage accumulated to be near zero. :)
Knew a bus driver for Adirondack Trailwaste who was disciplined for taking a trip off the Thruway for coffee and got nailed by one of those. He learned his lesson, pulled into a parking lot next time and ran the bus around in circles for about twenty minutes in reverse, much to the confusion of the geese. Heh.
Actually, we use another index - average daily out of service
It looks suspiciouly like (MTTR)/(MTTR+MTTF).
I give up. What is (MTTR)/(MTTR+MTTF).
MTTR = mean time to repair
MTTF = mean time to failure
The formula for steady state availability is:
(MTTF)/(MTTF + MTTR)
which is the fraction of units that are available. Similarly the fraction of units that are NOT available woud be:
1 - (MTTF)/(MTTF + MTTR) = (MTTR)/(MTTF + MTTR)
This would be roughly equivalent to the measure that you stated - average daily out of service divided by the number of units.
BTW, for the average daily out of service measure, do they count a pair of linked redbirds as 2 cars and a set of 4 cars that are linked as 4 cars?
Cars are cars. If you notice, in the catagories of out of service cars I've listed, I included OK mates.
What are Main Shop Holds and Long-Term Holds?
Main Shop holds are cars in the overhaul shop for heavy repairs.
Longterm holds are cars out of service, typically for more than 30 days either for unavailable parts or damage due to collision/derailment - usually where scrapping is pending.
Only a handful have axle-mounted odoneters. Mileage is still computed in an archaic manner. FOr example - D line is 25.4 miles in each direction. One train making 10 trips in service = 25.4 miles X 20 trips X 8 cars = 4,064 miles. Non revenue miles are not counted. Example 4 cars go to Coney Island to pick up 4 cars from the overhaul shop (4 x 25.4) + (8 X 25.4) = 305 Miles that's not counted in the MDBF. Mileage is computer scanned from the hand-written train register sheet.
Got it ... makes sense in a strange way, but shows why the MDBF figures others are complaining about may be archaic and limited, but are true to the revenue purpose of measurement and analysis. Please forgive the stupid question, I didn't know how it was being done and putting those bus "hub-o-meters" on trains struck me as silly. THANKS!
So very true my friend but somewhere the lost time for trainsets taken out of service has to be accounted for when there is a lack of parts to place it back into RTO service. MDBF directly refers to milage but is there not a time period acknowledgement? Parts were not directly available...I had not been shown the TT record for the trainset...intermittent propulsion failure and vibration was TTs of record...finding disintegrated axle brush holder on one 'B car' axle could create the problems. Does Transit only recognise MDBF as milage??? In private industry, time lost with machinery taken out of commission is revenue lost. Every part of simple significance that needs replacement in the R142 needs a work order. I'm stashing window Mylars in the troubles box. I fix loose 'fixed door handles' in minutes with our new 'homeless depot' parts bins....Loctite and cyanocrylate adhesives will put an end to loose pins. I just cannot live with trainsets taken out of service for lacking smallparts.
Peter - you are beginning to sound like a bauman. MDBF is MDBF.
There are no exceptions to this. MDBF is a very specific calculation for a very specific purpose. Lost time for trainsets taken out of service is not part of this calculation. That's accounted for in other statistics not related to MDBF. MDBF is not time-specific but is usually figured monthly and also 12 month moving average.........
Wow, b/o axle brush on one truck actually causes a propulsion fault??
If it were a SMEE car, the current WOULD find some other way
back to ground (like through another axle?)
Ain't "new tech" nifty? I wonder if there's a failure mode where the return path would be to the platform through people holding the doors? Hmmm ... this has disciplinary possibilities for the great unwashed. :)
B/O axle brush on the standard subway car causes the current to travel through the axle to ground through the journal bearing. You can imagine what that might cause.
Yeah, eventually it will ruin the roller bearing by pitting
the rollers and races. But, one bad axle brush out of four
axles wouldn't cause a propulsion fault! The "G" wire is bussed
among both trucks and all 4 axles. There's enough conductivity
there that the ground rise wouldn't be more than a few volts.
What you are looking for is an index that ties performance to car availability.
That relation already exists. Availability is defined as: (MTTF)/(MTTF+MTTR), where MTTF is the mean time to failure and MTTR is the mean time to repair.
One would also assume that MTTF = (MDBF)/(K), where MDBF is the mean distance between failures and K is the average distance per unit time (including layover and yard time).
The problem with what you want, that sort of index would penalize a shop for performing program maintenance.
One would assume that each shop has an independent measure of how timely program maintenance is performed. Management's weighting of this measure vs its weighting of availability and reliability (MDBF) figures woud determine whether or not scheduled maintenance procedures are performed.
Most of these measures assume identical items. This is not true for comparing redbirds vs R142's or linked R62's. The most obvious measure is availability, a redbird failure makes 2 cars unavailable whereas the others make 5 cars unavailable.
If a is the fraction of cars that are available for service, then 1-a = u is the fraction of cars that are unavailable. Let's use capital letters for the linked sets and small letters for the unlinked sets. For more linked cars to be available then: 5U < 2u. Remembering that a = (mttf)/(mttf + mttr) and 1-a = (mttr)/(mttf + mttr) we get:
5 * (MTTR)/(MTTF + MTTR) < 2 * (mttr)/(mttf + mttr).
If it is further assumed that link bars do not effect repair time then:
5 * (MTTR)/(MTTF + MTTR) < 2 * (MTTR) / (mttf + MTTR).
Reducing this further yields:
(MTTF)/(mttf) > 2.5 + 1.5 * (MTTR)/(mttf)
If it is further assumed that mttf >> MTTR then this reduces to
(MTTF)/(mttf) > 2.5 to have the same number of cars available.
So, if the redbird fleet had a mdbf of 80,000 miles, then the performance of the linked cars would need a MDBF of at least 200,000 to have the same number of cars available for service. So, it would appear that the TA set its 100,000 mile criterion too low to insure that passengers would have "seats under their ass".
Now perhaps you would explain how doubling the MDBF rate would prevent a shop from "performing program maintenance".
Do you know the figures for the R62 R62A five car trainsets? How would they compare to the 142 142A MDBF?
Do you know the figures for the R62 R62A five car trainsets? How would they compare to the 142 142A MDBF?
According to the this website the latest figures are: 192,000 and 157,000 miles respectively. OTOH, the 2-car R36WF cars did record 194,000 miles for the 12 months ending in 11/1999.
Thanks for the info.
Anybody notice they buried the story on something like page 41? I have no use for the Daily News and NY Post. They are rags. They always report the bad news in the front and report the good in the rear. I'm sick of Lizzie Grubman, J Lo, and Royal Scandals as front page news. One of the fringe benefits of working for the TA is that we don't have to buy these rags. They are left behind by the ridership who don't know what a trash can looks like. We do the right thing with them when we're done: stick them in the garbage where they belong. Thanks to our ridership, our car cleaners will always have garbage to sweep up!
Hey, this is the same paper which did an anti-V line article and used a picture of a DOWNTOWN train @ B'way Lafayette to prove their point. I was so outraged, I felt compelled to write them a very nasty e-mail.
The Times did one better; Randy Kennedy did his "rush hour" survey at 9:30.
Was he the one who took his survey at Continental? Has anyone bothered taking surveys at local stations, where the V actually provides a very useful service? Of course most passengers at Continental and Roosevelt prefer the express; I don't need an interview to reach that conclusion.
I only reade the Daily Snooze online, they don't define page numbers. I am often shocked when I look at the actual paper where the articles are positioned.
Peace,
ANDEE
I only reade the Daily Snooze online, they don't define page numbers. I am often shocked when I look at the actual paper where the articles are positioned.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good news. Of course MTA should strive to increase MDBF to as high a number as possible.
All right, Bombardier. Things are looking good! Way to go.
Wow, Bombardier I ALWAYS knew that you could do it!!
Gee, just in time to hear about NJT having all sorts of problems with their ALP46s (transformers failing) and Comet Vs (mostly door problems), both Bombardier products (alright, the latter is Alstom, but it's got Conbardier's greasy fingerprints all over it)! Amtrak's Acelas still break, and now are all permanently cowl-less, because somebody at Bombardier can't work a screwdriver. We'll see how the next batch of Bombardier equipment, the NJT DLRVs, ALP46s, Comet Vs, and the LIRR and MN M7s.
It will take a whole lot more than just an increase in one car's availablity. I'm still pissed about the slander that Bombardier spouted to try and kill Talgo in the US. Healthy compeition is fine, in fact, it's great, but monopoly is the last thing that we need in terms of railcar construction, and, through garbage like their attacks on Talgo, Bombardier is quickly heading for that monopoly.
How does this have to do anything with the M-7's?
It will take a whole lot more than just an increase in one car's availablity.
Single car availability is roughly the same as what the redbirds were ten years ago.
Amtrak's Acelas ... are all permanently cowl-less ...
That's strange... I saw six different AE trainsets last Friday while travelling from Washington to Newark, and only one was missing its cowl - and that on one end only. Yes, they've had issues, but the cowling was largely intact on the one-third of the fleet that I saw.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
thats good....but i am not supposed stick up are say anything about this stuff because i'll get bashed and slammed in here again. i'll in here lightly now. (not that you care....LOL)
The MDBF rate for the R-142s is defintely a far cry from the R-44s and R-46s when they first entered service. All those cars did was to break down constantly. The R-142s have been much better in that regard. It they can keep going 100,000 miles or more between breakdowns, that is quite good.
#3 West End Jeff
Article in today's Washington Post is by Don Phillips a railfan working at the Wash Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56984-2002Nov14.html
Phil Hom
The SMEE era - Classic Oldies.
Article in today's Washington Post is by Don Phillips a railfan working at the Wash Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56984-2002Nov14.html
I guess adult diapers should be a standard part of a police officer's uniform.
"I guess adult diapers should be a standard part of a police officer's uniform. "
I don't know, Peter - it Depends.
Sorry - it was just too easy and I could not stop myself.
You, uh, couldn't hold it in, Allan? :)
--Mark
You go too far, Peter. Do you know for certain that every person photographing militarily-significant junctions or installations is for certain a railfan, and not someone using the hobby as a cover?
These are difficult times, and in wartime, people have been asked to give up a lot more than the ability to pursue a hobby unimpeded.
There's nothing wrong with increased security. However, if the police stop a railfan, they should assume they are what they are unless something suggests otherwise. Railroad employees who go running after railfans taking pictures is going to far. You shouldn't be able to tell ANYONE to stop taking photographs if there's no law prohibitting it and the photographer is not on private property.
There's nothing wrong with increased security. However, if the police stop a railfan, they should assume they are what they are unless something suggests otherwise.
Such as what? Railfans do exactly what a terrorist casing the joint would do. Do you think a policeman is going to ask someone if he's a railfan and he's going to reply: "No Sir, I'm a terrorist"?
Railroad employees who go running after railfans taking pictures is going to far. You shouldn't be able to tell ANYONE to stop taking photographs if there's no law prohibitting it and the photographer is not on private property.
Very often railfans are on private property, plus "exigent circumstances" make certain areas sensitive. If we and the police don't help figure out a reasonable way to deal with such issues, there won't be any railfan photography at all.
Very often railfans are on private property, plus "exigent circumstances" make certain areas sensitive. If we and the police don't help figure out a reasonable way to deal with such issues, there won't be any railfan photography at all.
That's my point. The authorities CAN'T tell anyone to stop taking photographs alone. Debating in what way they can is moot. If they're on private property, they can be forced off. It's the photographing itself which is being treated as an offense. If I'm standing on Jamaica Avenue and I'm photographing trains passing overhead, and some cop tells me I have to stop, I'm gonna tell him to go to hell, but in a more diplomatic fashion.
Railfans do exactly what a terrorist casing the joint would do.
Um no. First Terrorists would tend to be a bit more descrete about things. They would probably use lower cost photographic equipment and would probably not hang out in any one area for very long. Terrorists would not need to take pictures of trains as they are not the key factor. They would be taking pictures of the RoW and access routes to the RoW.
Second, to derail or blow up a train you would need detailed photographs. Such an act is so easy that the information could be written down or memorized.
Third, a terrorist attack on a freight train would be stupid. There are many derailments every year, many with toxic chemical spills, some with large spills or fires in densely populated urban areas. While such a derailment would be bad, we're not talking a 9/11 here. There might be a few people killed, the RR line would be tied up for n more than a week and possibly evacuations in the area for 3-5 days. Train derailments, even ones caused by terrorists would be nothing that wouldn't be easily handled by local authorities. Its like being scared that terrorists might cause car accidents.
When then terrorists strike at rail transport it will be a crowded subway or commuter rail train. Kill about 50 people inside each car w/ a bomber, probably not even derail the train. The police should be watching for guys w/ big duffel bags, not guys w/ cameras.
You go too far, Peter. Do you know for certain that every person photographing militarily-significant junctions or installations is for certain a railfan, and not someone using the hobby as a cover?
These are difficult times, and in wartime, people have been asked to give up a lot more than the ability to pursue a hobby unimpeded.
I absolutely do not believe there is a significant terrorist threat. September 11th was a terrible event, but I am convinced that it was a one-off type of deal.
Moreover, even if there were a threat, the terrorists could find a way of scouting out potential targets without being obvious about it.
>>> These are difficult times, and in wartime, people have been asked to give up a lot more than the ability to pursue a hobby unimpeded. <<<
I agree with you that increased security is necessary, and rail fans can expect to be the subject of police field interviews while taking photos, even in public places. This does not mean you should stop taking pictures, just cooperate with investigating police, and the next time the same officer sees you there, he will probably just wave.
Tom
Why on Earth did that one guy let him self be Grilled by the FBI for 5 hours? Generally the rule of thumb is after 30 minutes you ask for a lawyer, no matter how innoscent you are. Once you ask for council the policfe will usually have to charge you or let you go.
I with you. But note the guy who was grilled works for the Arlington Police, which is next door to Fort Worth and in the same Tarrant County of both (and home of the Texas Rangers Baseball Team).
Arlington has a large Muslim population (the city iteslf has a population almost equal to Fort Worth, even though I think the parachute drop at Six Flags is the tallest structure in town). One of the largest charities that was busted post-9/11 for allegedly funneling its money to al-Qaida was also based there, so combined with the major UP and BNSF junctions in the area, chances are the FBI in the D-FW area has been told to be a little more alert to any rail threats than many other cities in the Midwest, South or Southwest.
>>> Once you ask for council the policfe will usually have to charge you or let you go. <<<
Not if you are determined to be an "enemy combatant" scouting for places to strike. You seem to be living in the past, when this was the land of the free. :-(
Tom
"Not if you are determined to be an "enemy combatant" scouting for places to strike. You seem to be living in the past, when this was the land of the free."
I predict not even Jutice Rehnquist will vote to allow American citizens to be designated as enemy combatants unless they are fighting with a military group overseas. Scalia and Thomas do not yet make a majority. Jose Padilla, even though not a very worthwhile citizen, is going to either be released or charged with some standard criminal offense and get a regular civilian trial.
>>> Jose Padilla, even though not a very worthwhile citizen, is going to either be released or charged with some standard criminal offense and get a regular civilian trial. <<<
I hope you are right, but if he is released without a legal test, it can happen again.
Tom
A very depressing article.....
A very depressing article.....
I guess it's time for me to repeat my words of wisdom:
There is nothing to be afraid of.
Osama bin Laden is dead.*
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
* = if anyone actually believes the latest tape is authentic, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.
THe War on Terror will never be over (especiallyu from the point of view of the government). As long as pissed off people exist there will be terrorism. Right now there are about a billion people totally pissed of with our country and are willing to give their lives in order to get revenge or get even. Until these people's problems are addressed there will always be terrorism.
>>> Right now there are about a billion people totally pissed of with our country and are willing to give their lives in order to get revenge or get even. <<<
Although I agree there are a lot of people pissed off with the U.S., I fear you have grossly overestimated the number willing to give their lives to get revenge.
Tom
"There is nothing to be afraid of.
Osama bin Laden is dead.*
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed."
The explosion in Bali was spontaneous combustion?
There is nothing to be afraid of.
Osama bin Laden is dead.*
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
The explosion in Bali was spontaneous combustion?
All evidence points to an Indonesian Islamic terrorist group as being behind the Bali explosions. Local terrorist groups are a fact of life today. You hawe particularly active ones in the Middle East, in Colombia, in Nepal, in Sri Lanka,* and probably elsewhere. What is greatly overblown, however, is all the hype about a unified transnational terrorist organization under Osama bin Laden, hell-bent on the destruction of the West. I consider those fears grossly exaggerated.
* = the Tamil terrorists in Sri Lanka are an interesting bunch; it was they, not the Palestinians, who developed the concept of the suicide bomber, and they are the only terrorist group that has managed to assassinate three heads of state.
"Clark said the Federal Railroad Administration obviously is watching his Web site, because an official contacted him in May expressing concern about a person who asked about the location of certain bridges and wrote in broken English. That person turned out to be a legitimate Swiss railfan."
Orwell anyone?
Makes you wonder who is looking at our postings here.
Remember all those threads about whether politics should be on the board or not? I'm about to revise my opinion that politics and rail are so intertwined you can't avoid the discussion, lest I offend the party in power by expressing an alternative railway policy opinion!
Okay, I'm (sort of) kidding here. Like they'd spend time gathering data on railfans, a less harmful group you'd have trouble finding, I'm sure. I'm not that paranoid...but this vigilante tattle-tailing scares me a bit.
Can you believe this? The terrorists have managed to f**k up railfanning too.
And let me just point out the fact that if the feds are spending time harrassing middle aged white guys taking pictures of choo-choos, doesn't that mean less of them are available to make sure the real maniacs don't manage to kill another 3,000 people? There has got to be a better way to allocate resources.
That said, perhaps I'll begin to David Cole-ize my postings with a link to my homepage so the feds know I'm just a trainspotter, not a terrorist!
Keystone Transit Page
Nice site but do you have to say Foamers?
It is getting hard enough to be taken seriously as a raifan but to have people call us Foamers when we are not.
Personally, I prefer "Ferroequinologist". That always gets people to thinking.
I like siderodromophiliac.
Railfans who take themselves too seriously are just the ones who give the hobby such a bad reputation.
The story appeared in Yahoo Groups: railspot on Oct 27 and engendered a major thread on trainorders.com beginning the next day.
I see from the report that he was trespassing on private property, and the police were responding to a complaint from the owner of the property (UP). His best defense in court (if it came to that) would be that the owner had never minded him trespassing before.
What is the civil liberties concern here? This is not like photographing trains from a public street.
This just re-enforces the fact that you need to always keep your scanner tuned to RR police frequencies. I have always avoided detection by simply always staying mobile. Or hiking to railfan spots out in the wilderness. Also, railfanning on Sunday's help. NOBODY is EVERY around on Sundays. Especially for shortlines and commuter rail. You basically have a free hand to do what you will. Major holidays too. Those are best for tunnel walking.
"This just re-enforces the fact that you need to always keep your scanner tuned to RR police frequencies. I have always avoided detection by simply always staying mobile."
By mobile I asuume you mean by moving around on foot. The reason I say that is because it is illegal to have a police scanner in a car.
I wonder how the police would react if they found you listening to police frequencies while taking pictures of trains.
I never program my portable scanner with police frequencies.
Railroad Police, not local Police. RR police broadcast in valid AAR channels so you'd have an excuse as to why they are programmed in your scanner.
Just out of curiosity JM, what would be your excuse?
Maybe, but the police definitely have times when they're brave. However, those times of bravery for them are often when it's 3 or more of them beating down some dangerous fare evader.
Wayne
> However, those times of bravery for them are often when > it's 3 or more of them beating down some dangerous fare > evader.
Or firing 40-some shots at an unarmed man.
Oh yes - How could I forget. But remember... He had a lethal wallet in his hand that presented a clear danger for all of those cops. Also let's remember Rudolph's speeches on suspected perps and cops.
Perps - "They should be punished to the extent of the law". I agree as long as they found guilty in a fair trial.
Cops accused of wrongdoing - "We should wait until all the facts come in", "give the police the benefit of the doubt" and my favorite..."do not second-guess the police".
Wayne
If you could get a renewable permit (sort of like press passes for the working press--say every six months) to pretty much be left alone while photographing defined railfan locations, who much scrutiny would you be willing to undergo to get it?
Would you agree to fingerprint and photo?
Background check, like for sensitive employment?
Review of your railfan collection?
What?
If you could get a renewable permit (sort of like press passes for the working press--say every six months) to pretty much be left alone while photographing defined railfan locations, who much scrutiny would you be willing to undergo to get it?
Would you agree to fingerprint and photo?
Background check, like for sensitive employment?
Under the circumstances and if it guaranteed my being left alone - I would be willing to go along with these two items.
Meanwhile I hate to tell you but I have done what I never considered ever doing before - I am now a card-carrying member of the ACLU...
ACLU?
American Criminal Liberties Union? Where the criminal has more rights than you do.
An organization of lawyers who graduated from law school at the bottom of their class and are not good enough to be hired by a law firm. So to bolster their egos they become activists even if they know if may be bad for society,
But that is my opinion.
"Would you agree to fingerprint and photo?"
If the Supreme Court, in its infinite conservative wisdom, decided that such a requirement was consistent with the Constitution, then yes.
"Background check, like for sensitive employment?"
Ditto.
I would have no problem sicne I work for a Bank and have had all this done as a requirement for employment.
If you could get a renewable permit (sort of like press passes for the working press--say every six months) to pretty much be left alone while photographing defined railfan locations, who much scrutiny would you be willing to undergo to get it?
Would you agree to fingerprint and photo?
Background check, like for sensitive employment?
Review of your railfan collection?
What?
If the permit would give me access to areas not ordinarily open to the public, I supposed I'd go along with any of the above. If it would allow me only to take pictures from public locations, I would not agree to ANY of the above.
Does anyone know why the TA is so vague with its GO postings. For instance: This weekend there is a GO affecting the A, C and D along CPW, go and look at the service diversions for the D this weekend and it says "no diversions scheduled". Go and look at the service diversions for the A and C and it says all A/C trains will run express all weekend D will be local. Why do they insist on pulling this sneaky pete type of stuff. If I am going to make a trip on the D I would go to the D trains service diversions and see "no diversions scheduled" and think everything is normal. Is this practice the result of stupidity, I mean they contradict themselves right on their own website.
Peace,
ANDEE
The general policy seems to be to list only service changes that involve trains not making all of their scheduled stops. If I was planning on taking the C from 86th to Brooklyn, I need to know that I can't do that -- and, similarly, if I was planning on taking the C from 168th to 86th, I need to know that I have to transfer to the D along the way, or I'll end up a mile and change from my destination. But if I'm going from the Bronx to Herald Square, I can still get there on the D. It would be nice to know that I should allocate three extra minutes to get there, but at least I don't have to find a new route.
The Moronic Transportation Authority gets it's G.O.'s mixed up numerous times. For example: when the M trains were running 24 minutes and single track over the Willy-B, the Service Advisories for the J line state "NO Diversions Scheduled", when in fact the J wasn't running west of Myrtle Ave station during the G.O. (only between Myrtle Ave and Jamaica Center). And if you look closely at this weekend Service Chanages poster, there's no E train diversion listed this weekend (rerouted on the F line in Queens and Manhattan), yet it STILL the same G.O. is listed on the Service Advisories web page.
Mistakes happen. I definitely think the TA needs to rethink how service changes (permanent and temporary) are announced to the public, since the current method doesn't work.
I also think you'd be taken a lot more seriously around here if you cut out the name calling. We all have our ideas of how we think things could be changed for the better, but most of us agree that the TA does an overall excellent job of providing one of the most extensive and useful transit systems in the world.
The TA definition of service diversion is a train not making it's scheduled stops. If a train makes additional stops, they do not consider it a diversion. Another case on point: about a month ago one weekend, Q trains were extended to 21/Queeensbridge. That was not posted on those station posters. In my opinion it should have, but the TA pays me to "do" and not to "make decisions."
I was on one of those extended Q trains. One passenger apparently boarded on at 57/7, expecting to go to Brooklyn. I guess she didn't notice that the train went north instead of south. At the last stop, she got off and asked me how to get to Brooklyn. I told her to get back on the train. She insisted, based on the "last stop" announcement, that it wouldn't go to Brooklyn; she refused to accept that she had reached the last stop in the other direction. A few minutes later, I found her having the same argument with the S/A.
That's what bad about when they don't post changes, as long as the train makes it's regular stops. A reason they should post changes even when a train makes it's normal stops, and in addition to it's normal stops it has added/extended stops, is because someone could have told someone to take the Q train to the last stop meaning 57th, but instead the last stop was 21/Queensbridge.
The same goes for the A/C/D situation someone mentioned. If a train normally runs express, but due to a GO runs local, it can also confuse people, even if the train still will stop at the person's destination station. For example, Someone's destination station could be 145th Street/St Nicholas. The normal D (express) stops there as well as the "GOed" D (running local). The person may have gotten on at let's say 7th/53rd, and asked for directions to 145th Street. She may have been told to take the D train for three stops, which would be correct considering normal service, but if the train is running local due to a GO, three stops is 81st Street/CPW.
Now this may sound silly, because someone can say, "How can you get lost if Manhattan Streets are numbered?", but the truth is people unfamiliar with the subway or the city can get lost due to something as silly as that. And consider the same in let's say Brooklyn where the streets are named, not numbered. The MTA should reconsider it's policy on that.
>>>If a train normally runs express, but due to a GO runs local, it can also confuse people, even if the train still will stop at the person's destination station. For example, Someone's destination station could be 145th Street/St Nicholas. The normal D (express) stops there as well as the "GOed" D (running local). The person may have gotten on at let's say 7th/53rd, and asked for directions to 145th Street. She may have been told to take the D train for three stops, which would be correct considering normal service, but if the train is running local due to a GO, three stops is 81st Street/CPW.<<<
A very astute observation.
Peace,
ANDEE
I respectfully disagree Buffalo Bill.
The TA definition of a service diversion is any deviation from it's normal course whether it be via a different line or additional/fewer stops.
There have been countless times where I have seen red posters that state that the E/F is going local all weekend, and I've seen the D local posters while working on the A.
You have to contact TA and tell them. Go to Straphangers.org and find the number to the line superintendent. He/she would probably do something about it.
Are the M-7's still testing midday? I saw them in Forest Hills several weeks ago between 1 and 2 PM, on two separate days.
Catch them on the 5PM to Ronkonkoma out of Flatbush Ave. I just got back from the morning round trip!!!! NICE RIDE!
Completely by chance, I wound up next to the M-7 on its AM westbound trip for a few seconds on the Belt yesterday morning. I must say, it looks more like a real train than I expected.
Watch the crap!
Mark
Thanks for the info!! Ill keep my head out my window to view it.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Just make sure that once it's passed, youre head' still on!!!!!! 8-)
Just make sure that once it's passed, youre head' still on!!!!!! 8-)
I know theres a test in 2003 and there was one in '99, but when was the last T/O exam before that and was it promotional only?
The last promotional T/O test was in June (May?) of 1999 - this is the one that I took. Prior to that was a promotional in early 1998 (this was the "rigged" test that set the scene for the Open Competitive test for T/O).
If you haven't seen this display, you should...
CITIGROUP CENTER PRESENTS
THE GOLDEN AGE
OF THE
RAILWAY
2002-2003
FREE DAILY EXHIBIT
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 29TH, 2002 THROUGH JANUARY 4, 2003
MONDAY THROUGH SATURDAY
10:00 AM TO 6:00 PM
SUNDAYS
12:00 NOON TO 5:00 PM
CLOSED CHRISTMAS & NEW YEARS DAY
THE STATION AT CITIGROUP CENTER
153 EAST 53RD STREET AT LEXINGTON AVENUE, NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10022
(Sponsored by) Citigroup & Boston Properties
This is a G-R-E-A-T layout. I've seen it on film & hope to see it in person this year. Best of all the price is right ... free.
Let's see now, arrive at Penn Station; see Santa at Macy's; walk up Fifth Avenue & do some window shopping; view the tree a Radio City; stop in St. Patrick's for a little inspiration; view the layout at Citicorp. How about some of those hot chestnuts ? Now I have to hurry not to be late for the Christmas Show at the Radio City Music Hall.
NY at this time of year is a great place, don't miss out
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr153003757nov15,0,6720379.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dheadlines
From your topic heading I thought you meant they were adding service.
When I recovered from my dead faint I looked at the article to see that the rider's opinion of the LIRR has improved to a C-plus.
Wow.
Acually I give it a B+ (the bathrooms are a D+ but everthing else is B+/A-) - but don't forget that I'm commuting from western Nassau and my normal travel time is less than 40 minutes. I'm sure that those who commute from, say, Ronkonkoma, Port Jeff and Patchogue have their own specific grievances.
Acually I give it a B+ (the bathrooms are a D+ but everthing else is B+/A-) - but don't forget that I'm commuting from western Nassau and my normal travel time is less than 40 minutes. I'm sure that those who commute from, say, Ronkonkoma, Port Jeff and Patchogue have their own specific grievances.
Speaking as someone who commutes from Medford, with a change of train in Ronkonkoma, I'd give the LIRR an overall C+. Many of my criticisms are linked to the age of the MU fleet - opaque windows, bad heating or cooling, saggy seats, and so on. While it's of course true that the LIRR will be replacing the MU's with the new M-7's, they shouldn't have waited so long. Other problems are caused by Penn Station's congestion, which isn't really the LIRR's fault.
But there are some issues which ARE its doing. For instance, there is the glacially slow crawl of express trains through Jamaica - one could reasonably assume that the LIRR could have worked the kinks out in the 90+ years they've run the service. On a similar note, there is the very annoying way in which eastbound trains crawl in the Ronkonkoma terminal, often taking several minutes to cover the last half-mile even when there are no trains in the station ahead of them. I've never figured out why this happens. Finally, the attitude of LIRR workers varies, but in general is below what you would encounter in most private business establishments.
C+ last year, C+ this year. Sounds more like the railroad's leaving mediocrity alone.
Watch the crap!
Mark
Why would Amtrak be liable?
The plaintiff's lawyer probably would have argued along the lines that if the crossing had been properly protected the truck driver wouldn't have tried to cross with a train coming, and then the accident wouldn't have happened.
Dubious reasoning, but Amtrak probably preferred not to let a jury hear it.
It's NOT AMTK's Railroad! Let the RR handle that complaiant.
You park on the tracks you eat the meatgrinder!
Just a quick of note to say that I am now back in Swindon.
Thanks to all of you for making this, my ninth trip over something special.
I will over the next few days, and after some sleep, compile a full report with pictures now that I have a basic undestanding of HTML.
My tenth trip next year will have to be extra special to top this one.
Simon
Swindon UK
Glad to hear that you had a safe trip, will talk to you soon.
That was some trip, with some of the best express runs (R32 "E", R32 "A", Redbird #5, Slant "Q") we've ever had. Even the "W" was pretty good, although it never broke 35.
wayne
My trip was tinged with sadness however. It was probably my last chance to ride a Redbird - unless there are still a few around next year. You never know.
We did have some great runs, and I had a great time.
Simon
> My tenth trip next year will have to be extra special to top this one.
We'll have to take you to visit another city with transit; I suggest Boston next. That should top it.
Great idea Dave, maybe we can make that into a major SubTalk Field Trip.
So now that Simon is "home," I've just left London continuing my around-the-world journey, and am now in Bangkok for five days. Not much has changed transit-wise since my photoessay last year, so I won't have much to report. I'll scout around to see what progress on the subway there has been (it's a separate project from the SkyTrain).
Next stop, Hong Kong (on Thursday), and that's going to be interesting.
Hong Kong (Drool) ... I didn't have enough time to ride around there when I travelled to Singapore in 1995 .... well, I'll live vicariously through your report :)
--Mark
I *almost* took Simon to Boston but I couldn't get together with him on Wednesday ... so he hooked up with you and you took him to Philly.
--Mark
Glad you're back and OK, and it was great hooking up with you for that railfan window marathon on Monday the 11th.
--Mark
There was a recent grade crossing collision between Chicago Metra and a SUV in Mundelein today. No train passengers were injured (listened to the news on the radio just now).
I forgot to mention that the SUV driver unfortunately died.
To quote Rush Limbaugh (for whatever reason anybody would want to do that) The "SUV" did not collide with the train, "SUV"s don't *do* things like that...
It was the *driver* of an SUV who collided with a train.
It was not the SUV's fault, but that of a driver.
Moot Point / Elias
Was it in a anti-horn blowing town?
I just heard on the news that a woman from Ridgewood, Queens was stabbed at the A/C/E platform this morning. Pretty sad, apparently witnesses saw her and her boyfriend holding hands as they walked from the L 8th Avenue Platform. Once on the 14th Street Platform a heated argument progressed into her boyfriend stabbing her multiple times with a kitchen knife (and what was he doing with that in the subway). After stabbing her, he fled to the tunnel.
Pathetic,truly pathetic on the man's part.Now I know for certain that a good percent of men are,excuse my language,complete ASSHOLES!!!!
I just heard on the news that a woman from Ridgewood, Queens was stabbed at the A/C/E platform this morning. Pretty sad, apparently witnesses saw her and her boyfriend holding hands as they walked from the L 8th Avenue Platform. Once on the 14th Street Platform a heated argument progressed into her boyfriend stabbing her multiple times with a kitchen knife (and what was he doing with that in the subway). After stabbing her, he fled to the tunnel.
This incident will get categorized as a crime in the subway system, which really isn't fair. It could have happened anywhere.
Right. "Crimes of passion" should not be included in the 'stats' with muggings, rapes, robberies, etc., since the victim and perp know each other. However, I believe the NYPD does not make that distinction when they make their tallies.
I agree, and they had all these interviews with other people on the subway saying things like, "You're not safe anywhere". I find that to be nonsense, because it wasn't a random stabbing in the subway. It was an altercation between boyfriend and girlfriend, and has nothing to do with the safety of the subway. It may have even been somewhat planned because what would he be doing with a kitchen knife on the subway.
I would bet that when interviewed they were not aware that it was a boyfriend/girlfriend dispute.
Bloomie is trying to sell his tax plan by saying the City is in trouble and "everyone has to help."
A chart from the New York Times suggests that he is simply trying to shift the burden with a little hocus-pocus.
The Times chart takes into account the fact that changing some taxes (local) causes other taxes (state, federal) to change in the opposite direction.
A particular eye-opener is not that every category of New Yorker the times charted (low-income renter, moderate homeowner, richer co-op or condo owner) will pay lower taxes and the suburbanite higher, but how the class issue plays out on the richest.
The "rich" $100,000 suburban commuter will be pay a net additional $1,350 per year, while the "poor" $250,000 city co=op or condo owner will pay lower taxes of $1,105 and $680 respectively.
I bet Bloomie wishes the Times hadn't run those figures.
(The "rich" $100,000 suburban commuter will be pay a net additional $1,350 per year, while the "poor" $250,000 city co=op or condo owner will pay lower taxes of $1,105 and $680 respectively. I bet Bloomie wishes the Times hadn't run those figures.)
Yep, It's Manhattan vs. Scarsdale and Garden City. We in Brooklyn are screwed anyway.
I don't know where he came up with this idea. It seems to be based on a principle of expedience -- screw a minority that can't retailiate, the commuters. This after he elected not to challenge any of the 1,000 ways that NYC is screwed by state and federal policies by opposing incumbents in the state and congressional elections. I assume that a watered down version of the commuter tax will be in exchange for a fair share of school aid, etc.
Bloomberg is lobying both washington and Albany. Opposing incumbants in elections does nothing to help NYC. The political game is an I'll wash your back if you wash my type of business. Opposing incumbents is not a wise political decision for a mayor. It is more of an issue for local groups to do.
Bloombergs proposals are simply a bargining ploy to pressure our elected offcials in albany to help out NYC or risk the rath of the voting public. If the budget gap is not filled one way or the other, the state finacial review board will step in and make more abritrary cuts and tax hikes. Bloomberg is a good mayor who was dumpted a pile a bricks on is back as soon as he steped into office. Mayor Rudy srewed the average new york in favor of the voters that voted him into office.
1) Staten Island - All new homes in SI are subject to a 10 year tax abatement. This was put into place before rudy took office to spur development in SI. Once development was on fire on SI Rudy should have ended the program or changed it. The result is the city had to build new roads, infrastracture, schools etc without any new tax revenue being created
Quite frankly, one of the major problems with NYC is that anytime an economic development proposal is placed foward. NIMBY community groups step up and block the proposal or drag the process out. This has left NYC too dependent on income from wall street bonues.
1) Big box stores will put small crapy stores out of business - The real issue is that the local politition will not get his had out and campaign donation. A good example is the Red Hook concilman who opposed the western beaf store on grounds that the extra traffic in the area would harm the people of the local housing project and most people using the facility would be from outside the area. The real issue was that he was getting a kick back for supporting a housing proposal.
2) Any fatory or power plant or waste processing plant in a industrial area gets challanged as illegally discriminated against minorities or the poor. There are no majorities in NYC, just many groups of minoroties. Industrial zoned areas are for industry. Industry creates some poluttion and jobs. It is best to consolitdate industry in certain area's. In NYC it is a crime if there are too many of any industry in any area. This constant court challenges for any project forces coorporations not to even bother to try to open any new facilitis
3)Reactivating rail lines. Don't buy a house near an old rail line if the ROW is still able to be reactivated. Chances are they got a break on the price of thier home because the existance of the ROW.
The people who get screwed most in NYC are the middle class new yorker. We need to cut the waste. Modernize the prcessed of city governement. The best way to help the poor is to provide economic oppurtunity to fight thier way up the latter. NOT provide handouts and subsidies which create a culture similar to putting a domesticated tiger back into the wild. THE PERSON SIMPLY HAS LOST TOUCH WITH WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO TO SURVIVE AND THRIVE
Yep, It's Manhattan vs. Scarsdale and Garden City. We in Brooklyn are screwed anyway.
There's also clerks who live in Levittown and firefighters in West Babylon.
I don't know where he came up with this idea. It seems to be based on a principle of expedience -- screw a minority that can't retailiate, the commuters.
Taxing people who cannot retaliate is not a novel idea. Many counties and localities around the country impose stiff taxes on hotel rooms and rental cars. Most of the people who end up paying these taxes are, of course, out-of-towners, and therefore cannot vote against the politicians who decided to impose them. What Bloomberg is proposing is squarely within this mold.
I thought it was time for one of my own photos instead of the old photos I have been posting from my collection. It really isn't the "best" photo, as it is a bit dark, but when I saw the backround, it made me a bit sad. Often times we only think of Smith-9th Street as a major change in the backdrop. However it's amazing how the the views around the entire New York City area have changed so much since that horrible day last Septemeber. I remember having 4th of July Fireworks roof parties from my old apartment seeing a view similar to this, with the whole city lit up (even with the train, even if a bit further away from my apartment than in this shot), and watching the fireworks and being so proud I am a part of this great country. Well sadly, this scene can not be repeated (and I don't mean just the obvious loss in the photo. There is now some kind of maintenence of way building built here blocking this view).
Cool. If you don't me asking, what is that probably black box at the middle bottom over there?
Storage for work equipment.
When did you take this picture? It looks like if it was taken from a station on the "M" line in Queens.
It was taken in 1993 at the Forest Ave Station on the M in Ridgewood.
Thanks for the year & location Chris. Just knew it was one of those station on the "M" line.
Looks to me like the south end of Forest Avenue.
Check out the 2003 New York City subways calendar. There are 12 images with the Twin Towers, just like it.
Bill "Newkirk"
And what a magnificent job you did with them, Bill!
>>And what a magnificent job you did with them, Bill!<<
Thank you Mr.Anderson !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll second that!
Excellent, suberb, gorgeous, impressive, highest quality as always
from Newkirk Images. I've been purchasing at Branford since
there inception (1994?).
Besides the theme associated with the 2003, I would be most
negligible if I didn't augment this edition to my cumulation.
I flood this board with excessive verbiage of my favored subway
route, which graces the front and rear covers. 2003 starts with
a "GG" coming to Smith~Ninth with the Twin Towers in Background
and ends with a (G) less the Towers.
;-) Sparky
2003 starts with
a "GG" coming to Smith~Ninth with the Twin Towers in Background
and ends with a (G) less the Towers.
Now that has to be a SAD photo.
It is the most SADDENED view.
IMO :-( Sparky
>>2003 starts with
a "GG" coming to Smith~Ninth with the Twin Towers in Background
and ends with a (G) less the Towers.
Now that has to be a SAD photo.<<
The front and rear covers is a comparison of what we had and what we lost. The rear cover is a sobering reminder of Sept. 11th and ALL whom we have lost. A sad photo, but a reminder never to forget.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is sobering for many riders (including myself) to cross the Manhattan Bridge on the Q (or W) and not see the towering symbols of America, even to this day it still is so sad. A day never EVER to forget, God Bless everyone.
....the same for the Williamsburg Bridge. I still expect to see them on the side of the train, even after all this time.
I know the feeling. Several months ago I was on Church St near the site. It was mind-blowing to stand there and there is a big VOID where there used to be towers.
I was there also not too long ago. You can even see the old sidewalk that used to be around part of the WTC, near where they put up that makeshift memorial, where you can look into the site. I remember that spot so well, and when I saw the old sidwalk all along, there it just amazed me that that sidewalk used to have two 110 story buildings towering above it (and then falling onto it) and the old curbline and sidewalk is still there. I still can't believe they are gone.
Or to go to a ERA meeting with that big hole in the ground next door where the Towers used to be :-(
Unfortunately, there have been many people who have forgotten or their memories are a little jagged right about now. Since I don't want to get into a political discussion I will just let it go as is. But I think you know where I'm coming from. One thing, I will never forget.
If anyone has a World Trade Center Memorial Calendar, (I bought one from COSTCO) it has some really good photos, but one digital but realistic, and one the creator creatively portrayed the towers from the ground through an "ideogram".
There are several photos which exhibit the actual views of the WTC.
Where can I buy NYC Subway merchandise?
>>Where can I buy NYC Subway merchandise?<<
Transit Museum gift shop at Grand Central.
Bill "Newkirk"
Where are they sold?
>>Where are they sold?<<
Transit Museum gift shop at Grand Central, The Red Caboose and Manhattan Trains on West 45th St- Manhattan, Willis Hobbie-Mineola.
Or mail order
Bill "Newkirk"
And Branford of course.
RE: A sad photo, I instantly recognized the location as Forest Ave. I lived nearby (on Catalpa Ave) from 1968-1998, with a two year hiatus in 1990 and 91. I have pretty much the same photo, several views from Forest Ave, my favorite is an R32 mis-signed "AA" in the same spot, at dusk with the twin towers in the background, taken maybe 1983 or so.
Since 9/11 I've been amazed, as I glance through my collection, just how visible the towers were from nearly every point in New York City. I never really noticed the towers in the background of so many of my slides until recently.
I only wish I took more pictures, especially when I worked in 1WTC (for the Port Authority, on the 64th floor). Film is cheap, but memories are priceless.
Kudos to all for the calendar reviews, I'll make it a point to pick one up ASAP.
A sad photo, I instantly recognized the location as Forest Ave. I lived nearby (on Catalpa Ave) from 1968-1998, with a two year hiatus in 1990 and 91.
I lived on Putnam Avenue until about 1993. I also have quite a few photos taken from the Forest Ave station or my roof. The M was only a block away. And all the buildings are the same height or lower, so I had a straight, sweeping view of the city (and the M Train) from my roof. I can't imagine that view now, without the WTC in the distance.
I have a video I took around 1985 from my roof when I got my first video camera, of the M train, and I can't believe how bad the trains used to look! And the station was trashed also! I'm so used to seeing them clean now.
How was the Citigroup center built around the E,F and 6 trains? I notice a few support colums go right into the subway entrance and I was wondering how was this acomplished without disrupting service.
The station is very deep and directly underneath 53rd Street. The support columns are nowhere near the station.
If you are talking about the mezzanine, not only is the mezzanine underneath the center's plaza, but there's also one at 3rd Avenue that was completely unaffected and most of the mezzanine was built with or after the building anyway.
The Citicorp Center opened in 1977.
The concourse connecting with the 6 didn't open until 1986.
Why do you ask about the Citigroup Center and not about the myriad other simple buildings built fronting a street with a subway line underneath it?
"Why do you ask about the Citigroup Center and not about the myriad other simple buildings built fronting a street with a subway line underneath it?"
OK then I'll ask questions about places where subway tunnels do go underneath buildings. There are relatively gentle curves from 53rd onto 6th Ave (B/D and E/V) and from 53rd onto 8th Ave. (B/D and E). Also, the IND is not that deep at those points. Were all of these tunnels constructed while no building existed above, or concurrently with new buildings, or were buildings built afterwards around the tunnels?
I have seen some intersting pictures of hwo the IRT was built under the existing NY Times Building, and diagrams of how it passes almost right through the basement.
It appears that they dug their holes, proped up the building, and built the railroad around their props.
I used to work at a building near 34th and 5th (not the one with the point on the top) and since my office was in the basement, I was sure that I could hear LIRR trains running underneath.
Elias
"I have seen some intersting pictures of hwo the IRT was built under the existing NY Times Building, and diagrams of how it passes almost right through the basement."
Where is this? I don't understand how the 7th Ave IRT passes underneath a building. 7th Ave seems wide enough for 4 tracks. And where the shuttle makes its curve there isn't any building above.
The original Contract 1 IRT line passes under the Times building where the shuttle's Track 4 connects up with the Uptown 1/9 local track. Since both the subway and the Times building were built concurrently, construction of the two might have been co-ordinated.
When the IND's curves were built at 53rd and Sixth, there were much smaller buildings on the corners in need of support. The big office towers came later. The most interesting tunnel under a building, IMHO, is the BMT Broadway line, which has to pretty much bisect No. 1 Broadway to get from Whitehall to Church Street while cutting under the IRT Bowling Green station.
"The original Contract 1 IRT line passes under the Times building where the shuttle's Track 4 connects up with the Uptown 1/9 local track."
Thanks. That makes sense. I was thinking the current NY Times Building, which is west of 7th Ave., rather than 1 Times Square.
Also interesting, and described on this site (???), is where the J/M/Z pass under a building where they turn south from Delancey/Kenmare onto Centre St. That was evidently a case of simultaneous construction.
Also on the J/M/Z is Chambers Street, in the basement of the Municipal Building. Again, the two were built concurrently.
Ok Fine. Wat about
1 Liberty Plaza(Outside the N and R Cortlandt street station)
Grand Central Terminal
Rockafeller center
Penn Station
1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7 World Trade
and thats about it.
YAY!
You knew I wanted to answer this!
1 Liberty Plaza aka US Steel Building: Not significant, no subway trains pass directly underneath.
Grand Central Terminal: Grand Central Terminal used to have huge rail yards to the north. It was designed similar to a European train station. In 1907, reconstruction began, it involved tearing down the old building and replacing it with a new building, north of there, every formerly blocked street from 45th Street on north was built over the newly expanded larger yard (the lower level was added probably one section at a time) and the Park Avenue wraparound roadway was built connecting to a Park Avenue viaduct over the yard to connect to the existing Park Avenue that started at 57th Street.
Thus a street grid was built over the yard north of GC. As the years went by, air rights were sold and buildings were built over the holes. The terminal was completed in 1912 and by the 1920s, the entire yard was covered with buildings and streets.
Rockafeller [sic] center: Rockefeller Center predates the Sixth Avenue Subway.
Penn Station: Penn Station predates both the Seventh and Eighth Avenue subways.
1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7 World Trade: The PATH tunnels were kept in temporary cradles while the sub-basement levels were built. The new station was built into the sub-basement and the tunnels to/from it were cut into the sides of the existing tunnels. In 1971, trains were rerouted to the new station.
As for Greenwich Street, the subway was never opened up, digging was not done underneath with the exception of the PATH escalators and then it was simply covered over with the Mall and plaza.
7 World Trade Center was built with heavy supports necessary to have it built on top of an electrical substation without removing the substation.
"As for Greenwich Street, the subway was never opened up, digging was not done underneath with the exception of the PATH escalators and then it was simply covered over with the Mall and plaza."
The PATH escalators pass UNDERNEATH the 1/9? Do you know where? I just looked at the site the other day and the only passageway underneath the 1/9 that's visibe is the old Hudson Tubes south tunnel.
The large ad signs that hung above the escallators as you went down to the mezznine level of the original PATH complex at WTC were actually sitting on the outside wall of the 1/9 Cortlandt St. station/tunnel. The escallators were dug out to run beneath it, so part of the Cordlant station was actually on a 'bridge' over the PATH escallator bank that amazingly survived the collapse of WTC 2 without falling into the lower mezzanine. The bank of escallators also began outside the 'bathtub' in the mall area and ended inside the bathtub on the mezz level.
Thanks. That makes sense in terms of what I remember. What I don't understand is why that's not visible now. Maybe I just wasn't looking in the right place, but I would have thought I'd have seen it.
I recently got involved in a thread on R-68a's run in with a C/R. Basically, I took a viewpoint contrary to Train Dude's. At some point in the thread, Train dude said that 'jackasses' say things like: 'would you like fries with that' and 'would you like wax with that, sir'. This was in an attempt to insult me. Apparently, having a low level entry job to make ends meet makes you scum in his eyes, because that's what he basically said.
In the next post, I pointed this out to Train Dude, stating that what he said was bigoted. I also continued my arguments as to why the C/R was wrong, and why what he did was quite punkish.
At this point, Train Dude decided that suddenly what Clayton, R-68A and myself had said was stupid and lacked any type of backing (even though I have used logic throughout). For the Record, Clayton and R-68A have said little or nothing about or to Train Dude, but since this involved them, he lumped them in as well. Then he stated that kids were not worth his time, and that they shouldn't be a part of anyone's time.
As usual, Train Dude was the first one to use personal insults (calling me a jackass, and suggesting that I'll soon be incarcerated.)I cut and pasted one of his posts to my liking, and then he started insulting me by likening me to a poor person.
What has really surprised me was the lasck of reaction. When the poster 'John' said something that was mildly racist, people jumped down his throat. But, no one has said anything about his utter contempt for the poor, or the fact that he FREQUENTLY insults people who disagree with him. I had FACTS here, and he decided he would ignore them. When I pointed out his bigoted remark, he decided that I was no longer worth the time. Posters have also agreed with him. Have you guys even read the thread?
I have found this disgusting. Why the hell is everyone so scared of train dude. NUMEROUS things he said here were hypocritical, and throughout the whole post, he has been the immature one. And yet everyone has stood in his corner. Even R-68A has sold me out. Thanks a whole bunch guys. In the past, train dude has also carried out similar attacks, especially when he was right. Apparently knowledge is an excuse to insult people on this board.
So, what am I saying? In short, screw all of this. I don't have to put up with this crap, for being a railfan. If this is how you guys like to treat others fine by me, i'll stop wasting my time here. In fact, I'll follow the great Train Dude's advice, and 'focus on my schoolwork' instead of spewing 'kiddy litter' here.
Thank you Dave Pirrman for providing this site for people to learn more about trains, and thank you to those who shared knowledge without being arrogant about it. Hell, thanks for those real off-key debates that we really got into it over nonsense. It was fun while it lasted.
Later,
J trainloco.
NO! Jtrainloco, you can't leave! There's a shortage of teenage railfans!
Hey, what am I, chopped liver?
I could ask the very same question.
Dan
Hey "Flyerlover", I am also a teenage sub/bustalker. I am 17 going on 18 and I am going to post whenever I please. If you have seen my posts, you would never think I am a teenager but I am. I'll respond to the post by "Jtrainloco" in another post right now.
Um, you do realize that this is the internet and nobody cares, right?
Um, you do realize that this is the internet and nobody cares, right?
You seem to care, why else would you respond?
It seems some people don't know how to follow their own advice.
there's a difference between "caring" and having a spare hour with nothing to do but respond to subtalk posts.
In fact, I'll follow the great Train Dude's advice, and 'focus on my schoolwork' instead of spewing 'kiddy litter' here.
Oh come on! Don't waste time doing "schoolwork" when you can post here.
I'm firmly on your side. Being a youth rights activist, I take insults against "kids" personally.
I was ready to post an anti Train Dude message, but your post said everything that needed to be said, my post would only be redundant.
I wish people wouldn't insult others on SubTalk. If we disagree we ought to be able to just say so. But I don't see the point of trying to persuade people to mind their manners or lecturing them if they don't. This is the internet, and people do get out of hand. I just try to get interesting information out of this site.
You might as well wish for money to grow on trees. Opinions are not respected here on Subtalk, which is why I stopped posting on the regular. Anytime that good and frank discussions can disintegrate into name calling, slurring, being condescending or just plain nasty, it's time to hang it up.
Sometimes I respond to a particular thread (such as this one), but as the rule now, this NYCT conductor keeps his mouth shut and simply reads with an occasional shake of the head and a sigh.
Road Dogg, I'm not buying that. You used to contribute some good stuff on Subtalk and bugging out is not the way to go----at least that is my opinion. Hope to see you post regularly again. Ah, what the hell, all of us have a streak of anger once in awhile but I can't recall any real enemies emerging on this site.
Gee whiz, im sorry about that, J Train. If I realized what was going on ( I didnt read the thread), I wouldve jumped on your side in an instant. I think it is very important to have a younger perspective on the board, and it adds to the diversity of the issues and opinions discussed. Losing your opinion would be tragic for the board. As for train dude, if that's the way he likes to consider people, then his two cents arent even worth that much. I am a very liberal person who sides with the blue collar and working poor in this country. I was one of them for quite a while, and i am proud of my heritage. Nearly all of my family was blue collar Italian workers. When someone insults the working class, they insult me, and I take that very personally.
You're a fellow Dago????? Well, what do you know. All you need now is to be a Sicilian and, well, who knows. This is something you are not going to like to hear. Are you aware that the biggest ethnic group to go over predominantly to the Republicans side the past 35 years are the Italians? Yes, Sunnyside, that is right.
Still it is good to know that you are a fellow piasan; it means that you have some good points. Of course, if you are a full blooded dago like me you also have some pecadillos as well.
Im full-blooded dago, but Im from central and southern Italy, not Sicily. Im not sure the exact location, but I think it was near Naples.
Well, then, we're fellow piasans. That means we have to cool the rhetoric just a little if we get into political scrapes. My closest friend online is #1 Brighton Express Bob and you ought to see how we go at it when politics come up. He a lefty like you. But it is always in good fun. What is your favorite line?
Definitely the (7). My apartment faces the Queens Boulevard viaduct, near 40th St Station.
Just because our political beliefs are at opposite ends of the spectrum doesn't mean that I have any beef with you or anything as a person. Obviously, we have differing opinions on the subject, and we both think we are right. Thats diversity for ya :0)
Since you like the #7 I hope you are a Mets fan. I'm a real die hard Mets rooter and I take all kinds of crap out here, but I wear my Mets shirts and hats with impunity.
Not to mention your Mets watch.:)
Say, how about that Met money clip you bought last month?
Hey Steve, I'm getting good use of it. It really looks sharp and I've got some comments on it. I don't always use it, but when I take the wife out I like to bring it out and unload a wad of bills from it. Makes me look like a big spender but most of the bills are ones and fives. You can only pretend so much.
The Danbury Mint has a new plate for sale of the Met's brightest stars, past & present. Mike P's photo is horrable.
I presume Tom Seaver is on there somewhere.
And Rey Ordoñez isn't ...
Rey Ordonez's bat is an embarrassment. His hitting sucks.
I'm betting Marv Thronberry didn't make the set....*G*
But Rusty Stab did.
What about Chico Escuela?
I would guess that the Danbury Mint has been BERY BERY BAD TO HEEEM !
I just received in the mail today an offer of a large dish showing the Mets' All Time All Star Team. I told my wife to get it for me for Christmas. I hope next year is a vast improvement over this year but with the great stone face managing the club it could be one dull summer.
I'll bet it includes the likes of Seaver, Koosman, McGraw, Hernandez, Carter, Grote, Harrelson, Jones, Agee, Strawberry, et al.
Piazza behind the plate and Hernandez at first, Alfonzo at second, Harrelson at short and Ho Jo at third. In the outfield it is Strawberry, Dykstra and Mookie Wilson. Staub and Kranepool at pinch hitters (if you can believe that category) and Seaver, Koosman Franco and Roger McDowell as pitchers. Gil Hodges is the manager, who, by the way, belongs in the Hall of Fame, and the rotten Dodgers should have retired his number by now.
Heck, the Mets retired his number 14 back in 1973.
I Got the mailing too and I thought that Mike should have a bat in his hand instead of crouching because his catching record is average or a little below.
Keith Hernandez should have had a glove in his hand. His bat was fine, but his glove was about the best ever. (Not the greatest but right up there).
Keith won a few Gold Gloves in his day. One thing he brought with him from St. Louis is leadership and lots of it. If the Nolan Ryan-Jim Fregosi trade was the worst in Met history, the Rick Ownbey/Neil Allen - Keith Hernandez trade was one of the best, if not the best. I still remember one of our TV sportscasters reporting that trade on the air and he was shocked.
The trade for Keith Hernandez was the event that turned it around for the Mets. He was born to play in New York and for the Mets. He was my favorite Met and to me a class act in the field. A good consistent 300 hitter, great in the clutch, a terrific fielder, and a team player extraordinaire.
It sure got the Mets pointed in the right direction. At first Keith didn't want to come over, but then his brother pointed out that they had some guys in their farm system (Doc Gooden, for one) who had promise. He eventually signed a long-term contract with the Mets.
When he first reported to the Mets, Keith was greeted with "Welcome to the Stems" from Tom Seaver and "Keith, you're my ticket out of here" from Dave Kingman.
I think it was near Naples.
Naples was the capital of the Kingdom of the Two Silicies until 1860.
AP, I've got to hand it to you. Though I get teed off with you from time to time I have to marvel at the wealth of info you possess. Until Garibaldi united Italy in 1870, the Kingdom of Two Sicilies spoke volumes about how Italians had been splintered since the fall of the Roman Empire.
>>Im full-blooded dago, but Im from central and southern Italy, not Sicily. Im not sure the exact location, but I think it was near Naples.<<
Sant Angelo Di Lombardi ? That where my grandmother came from. That's somewhere outside of Naples.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Are you aware that the biggest ethnic group to go over predominantly to the Republicans side the past 35 years are the Italians?]
A far cry from Italian working-class patriates like Sacco & Venzzeti. Only proves that like other working class groups before them -- Germans and Irish -- the Italian classes are now more white-collar and middle to upper-middle class.
Once the majority of an ethnic group attains a certain 'strata' in this country (tax bracket) then that group tends to swing it's voting patterns from liberal or progressive politics to one of a more conservative outlook. It's something as predictable as clockwork.
That is certainly true Doug but I once read in a history book that in 1940 ( a great year) Italian-Americans gave FDR a resounding 96% vote in the Presidential Election, something even African-Americans don't give the Democrats today. The Italian defection from the Democrats started under Eisenhower and really accelerated after 1965. Ironically the first Republican to benefit from this was none other than the crooked and shifty Richard Nixon. See I can come down on a Republican, too.
Next stop on the Sea Beach---Kings Highway, or is it King's Highway, or is it Kings' Highway. Anyway, get ready to deboard.
Well, as you know, Fred, us guineas are pretty side-shifting creatures...it's something about the Italian temperament, as you know we are INCREDIBLY stubborn (testa duro, I like to say), we'll definately cut off our noses to spite our faces. It's the fiery passion....C'mon, look what happened in WW2- we were SO stubborn we sided with the Germans, then after helping the Allieds by dragging the Germans into all kinds of dumb military misadventures (mostly Ethiopia, a truly silly military objective if there ever was one), we completely shifted sides and helped the Americans and British, even to the extent of catching and killing Mussolini before he could be captured and embarrass us further. I won't even go off on a sidetrack about El Duce, except to say while he was banging his fists and yelling about Fascismo and the strong having a moral obligation to rule the weak he didn't even bother building up the Italian military--when they went into Africa, their tanks were so obsolete the Germans had to stop what they were doing, which was trying to get to the oil, and bail out the Italians, who were trying to get Ethiopia so El Duce would feel like Ceasar. Even when we were on the wrong side, we blew it so bad, we ended up doing the right thing.... In other words, what side of ANYTHING Italians are on depends on their mood that day- we can be conservative one minute, liberal the next. Look how many completely different governments have run Italy since the end of WW2-is it 100, or 102? Now, in case you think I'm putting Italians down, you're completely mistaken, I think we're hilarious and beautiful and look, we're above politics. We love children and women and laughing and eating and everything good in this world.
There, I've said my peace, paesani-
Great post Tony but I was talking about Italian-AMERICANS. We are a little different than the boys overseas. Remember a large number of Dago boys went overseas to fight and liberate Italy. Still I did like your post. There was a lot of it that does describe us.
You have a point there, Fred..we ARE a little different than native Italians..plus, you know, we have a wide range- good Italians are great, bad ones are REALLY bad, you know what I mean?
That is 100% accurate. There seems to be no middle ground with us Italian-Americans. We either are a good group of people or a real pack of jerks. Fortunately for us, there is more of the former. I always tell people I know that it is better to be half Italian than full blooded. This was you get more of the virtues and less of the vises. You'd be surprised how many mixed-ethnics tell me they wish they were all Italian. That's a sea change from decades ago when in order to get ahead Italian-Americans often had to anglicize their last names to "fit in." No more.
I take it you are a J Train fan. Do you, by any chance, live in Canarsie?
No, Fred, I'm from The Bronx, your favorite borough, but I live in North Carolina now.
I've lived all over Brooklyn, though. I AM a J train fan, I know you love the Sea Beach line, which I agree is a great line, but for me, nothing beats the Broadway Elevated.
Plus, I'm actually one of those mixed-ethnic Italians...my father is Italian, and my mother is Irish..I love my Italian side, but I must admit I love my Irish side, too. They're not so different, in my experience..maybe it's because they both shared similar hardships when they first came to this country. Being inside both cultures, I can tell you that the similarities are striking.
A mix? Believe me, that is the way to go. Most of the virtues and none of the vices. Do you know that Italians and Irish used to fight like hell decades ago. They really disliked each other and they showed it. Know what happened? It seemed like Irish girls really took to Italian boys and that changed things plenty. Not so much Irish men and Italian women, though that happened too, but there were thousands of cases where Irish girls married Italian boys, and then, the families bacame pals.
When I was a kid, believe this, girls hated me. They thought I was a rotten violent little bastard. But you know what? While Italian, Jewish, Polish and Puerto Rican girls despised me, Irish girls had crushes on me. No shit. Maureen Killoran, Sharon O'Brien, Connie Costello, Marion McCray, and Gerry Carroll. All of them liked me and they were all Irish. See what I mean?
North Carolina? Anywhere near Monroe? I have some great memories of that town. NC is very green and the people are very f riendly and they elected Liddy Dole.
Yes, I love the Sea Beach and, yes, you've heard that I'm not the greatest fan of the Bronx. The reason is the Yankees. Since I could walk I've hated that team. But I have yet to visit Arthur Avenue. Next time I will for sure. Got to see some Bronx Dagos. Heard they really have some good Italian restaurants there. Take care and keep in touch.
Funny, thing is, except for my mother and father, the Italian and Irish sides of my family didn't get along so great either.
Also, your experiences with Irish girls in your life echo my own COMPLETELY.....all the good ones I've had so far have been Irish girls, something about them, they're great gals.
I'm actually in Chapel Hill, NC, Monroe's down the road apiece.
You haven't been to Arthur Ave?? What are you waiting for Fred, go, it's the only true Old World Italian-American community left..there's a few others, Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, but believe me, when you get up there, and smell that Italian bread baking in the morning....
Hey J Train, you plan on going to New York in the next year or so, let me know. Maybe we can touch base and see the sights and ride the rails. I have made some real nice friends on my trips, and in fact, #1 Brighton Express Bob and I have become almost like brothers. He, along with Gary (the gourmet) Wengeroff, Jeff (carousel) Alterman, Mark (the director) Feinman, Steve 8THAVE (the Dictionary) Bulota, and the Big Spark (Johnny be Good). Well they are one hell of a bunch of good guys and I have had a blast on my three rail trips to the big city.
And, of course, he'd be treated to an installment of The Bob and Fred Show.:)
Hey Fred, you still live in NY? If I am going to go up (and I might, my parents in the Bronx are always bugging me to bring my son up), I'll definately drop you a line first.
Better give me plenty of warning because I'm a Californian. I live in a city called Arcadia, population 47,000. It is a middle to upper middle class community next to the foothills and about 15 miles from Los Angeles.
Ah, maybe you're a Californian because of where you live, Fred, but believe me, you got a Brooklyn heart and soul.
Fred has to wear his Brooklyn Dodgers cap next time he's in the city.:)
You know Steve I still haven't gotten that new hat made yet. I have the "B" letter I want in my car but haven't made my way to the sporting goods store to get it done. Maybe before Christmas.
Thank you piasan. There once was a time that I never wanted to be reminded that I was once a New Yorker, but about 12 years ago it occurred to me that if a person denies his birthplace and birthrite he isn't much of a man. I'm a Californian now but I am proud of the fact that I was born in New York City. Why not? It's the greatest city in the world, and, yes, despite what people think, New Yorkers have big hearts and are a great people.
You're welcome, paisan. I've always been proud of being a New Yorker, even my son (6 years old and born here in NC) calls himself a "New York boy" and speaks with my accent..well, he's been up to NY a bunch of times ever since he was a few months old, so I guess he has the right :)
Some Manhattanites (who weren't born there, just live there because they have the $$$ to) give the rest of us a bad image, don't you think? When people here talk to me about their image of NY'ers, I tell 'em that until they go to Brooklyn or Queens or The Bronx and see what the city and NY'ers are really all about, they won't get it, and I don't blame 'em. Put it this way, this happens to me often- Someone will say, "Meet so-and-so, they're from NY" I'll say, "Oh really, wow, where did you grow up?" They'll say, "Oh, I'm not FROM NY, I'm from Kansas (or Massachusets or Timbuktoo), I lived in the Village for a year". People base their opinions about NY'ers based on that and "NYPD Blue".
When I hear the same thing I want to give that person a swift kick in the ass. That is no New Yorker in any way, shape or form. They haven't a clue as to what makes a New Yorker. A real one never completely loses his accent, is very demonstrative, wears his feelings on his sleeve, and has a deep sense of decency when you break through the rough edges.
Jeez, you just described me 100%.
I had a feeling that it more or less described you. I have this sixth sense about things like that. Glad you enjoyed the post.
Well, it's not often that someone calls me that close. Yeah, i enjoyed it.
Don't let him kid you, Tony... he's a Californian through and through :-) He claims to be an Italian, but he turns up his nose at an onion; he claims to be a New Yorker, but he won't eat an onion bagel or a even a slice of garbage pizza because it might have a piece of onion on it. No, the smoggy California air has affected his brain beyond all hope of recovery :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Tony, this guy is supposed to be my friend. It makes me wonder what my enemies must think of me.
Ah, he's just playing with ya, Fred.
Hey Fred, just pretend it's Bob doing the talking.:)
That's it!!! Anon and Bob are the same person in different disguises. I wonder why I hadn't figured that one out before. The only problem is that one says he's a Republican, the other a Democrat. So someone is lieing half of the time. Get this, though. When I visited Virginia I stayed at Bob's house and treated him to lunch and dinner a few times. When we went to a restaurant I told him if he ordered any onions I would take them off his plate and shove them up his ass. He didn't order any.
BUZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, Fred. I've met both Anon and Bob. They most definitely are not the same person. Anon in fact was out here in Denver last year and we took in our light rail line together.
And Fred's met me too... we (and Marty - 5301 Fishbowl) did the Newark City Subway and the HBLR together earlier this year. It's just that Bob (who I've never met) and I both have a fondness for the onion :-)
In fact, I think the next time we go railfanning together I'll pack lunch for us all... my wife's favorite... mustard and onion sandwiches :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's right - you two met last August.
BTW, Fred says garlic is OK.
Hey Fred, I'm 25% Italian, how good does that make me? Does it fit well with my 25% Portuguese and 50% English? :-)
You're right about Italian temper, my Italian grandmother had MANY stories about her family. For one, my great-grandfather was sick of everyone arguing about who would clean the dishes, so he ended up pulling the tablecloth out and crashing everytihng to the ground! Good times, good times.
Did he say, "O per Dio Santo!"?
Did he say, "O per Dio Santo!"?
He could have shouted it in Italian or in Portuguese, I'm not sure if it happened when the Carozinis were already living in Sao Paulo or before.
Jtrainloco: ignore the rantings of Train Dude....if you were to meet him in person he'd quiver in his boots. He's not worth losing sleep over...
Agreed, I'm glad I don't have to work for him, but people I know that do work near him always describe him as that guy who writes everyone up, or words to that effect.
Peace,
ANDEE
That means he's doing his job.
I certainly didn't sell you out. I was providing a defense that I have yet said anything personal about him and that he shouldn't have started. Taking the high road out, I still respect Train Dude, the transit worker but maybe this time he should get HIS facts straight and see that nothing was directed toward him from the previous discussion... till he started. Jtrainloco, contact me via e-mail.
Look as teens[yes i am 17 going on 18], we need to stick together and we have to prove some people wrong about their perceptions of teens. Yes, I respect his experience but at times he gets WAY too snotty and uses his experience to make himself like he's a perfectionist, WHICH HE IS NOT!!!! Also, if you don't agree with him, he brings you down, insults you & some of these people are afraid of him, in which I fear no one on this board. Yes, it is OK to criticize[hey, its common], but when you start to insult someone, like when TrainDude called Jtrainloco "Jtrainloser", that is highly irresponsible. R68A, I would like your opinion to my post and since you 2 seem to know each other, try to convince him to post again.
Holla back.
FB41
J, don't you do that. You stay on board. We all get our share of blows on Subtalk from time to time. Hell, I caught it good and plenty when I made references to he Bronx that seemed a little unfair to some, and with my rantings about the Republicans last week all the Dems came out of their lairs and gave it to me.
Train Dude is a straight shooter. He sometimes gets emotional like I do but I have always had a great relation with him, and there was one instance when he got on me. Forget it. You have a lot to offer and I enjoy reading your posts. What hurts is that I'm fond of both you and the Dude and I hate to see people I get along with on board battle amongst themselves.
Think it over.
To #4 Sea Beach Fred and others
J trainloco should not pull out of Subtalk. I too have gotten my share of blows on the message board. I also managed to get people a little concerned about my well being last year when I mentioned that my minor cleft palate was bothering me. Now that is water under the bridge and the situation with my minor cleft palate, though not perfect is somewhat better now. I do wish to mention that Despite missing you and the others on October 13th, I managed to get to Coney Island and I saw AND took a picture of a slant R-40 #4307 on the "W" at Stillwell Ave. I think the picture may be posted on the www.nycsubway.org Car Roster. I also have some new pictures of myself having a good time on the B&B Carousell, but I need to scan them in. BTW, there is going to be a fan trip on Sunday December 8th and the cars will be the "Redbirds". I hope that at least some of you can come along. I hope I can too.
#3 West End Jeff
Are teens welcome on subtalk trips? Or would I be better off staying home because of this recent teenager bashing season?
I think that you would certainly be welcome on a SubTalk fan trip. I don't think that they'll be bashing teenagers as far as I know.
#3 West End Jeff
Teens are most definitly welcome on railfan trips. I have been a "facilitator" myself on many trips, sponsored by the transit museum, and teens have always been there in abundance. So, go and ENJOY!
Peace,
ANDEE
Are teens welcome on subtalk trips?
Responsible people of all ages are welcome. Irresponsible idiots, regardless of their age, are not. And we've got folks on this board that span the spectrum. The SubTalk trips that I've been on have had folks of all ages, and as a general rule the behavior level has been much better than what I've experienced on Transit Museum, NYDERA, or BVTA (Philadelphia) trips (and the problems that I have seen are generally the same people on each trip).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for responding to my post Anon_e_mouse!!!1
Jeff, I still feel guilty about October 13. I was assured that we'd get back in plenty of time, but those trains were running very late and then there were a few slowdowns which really screwed things up because when we got back to where we were supposed to meet you you were gone. It was our fault. Next spring we will get things right.
Well, we are not perfect, but you tried. I still got out to Coney Island that day and had fun on the B&B Carousell. Maybe we can both ride the "Cyclone" in the spring. It is scheduled to open on Sunday April 13, 2003.
#3 West End Jeff
Barring unforseen circumstances, I'll be there. That's it!!!! Let's see if we can get a group up like we did last month. Maybe if we start advertising about it more guys will work their schedules around and we can do it as a group. But the Cyclone is priority number one.
Sea Beach Fred AND Train Dude ARE nice people who stand up for what they believe in. We need more people with their kind of integrity. (and I'm a Democrat)
John, I forgot where you reside but I certainly hope we can touch basd in person next spring when I come East again. I promise to keep politics to a minimum unless you want to engage in that. I love riding the rails, though, and had a great time with Wayne, Steve, and John last month. In fact, Mark Feinmann and by pal Brighton Express Bob also joined up for one day. It was a great way for a rail nut to spend a short vacation.
I agree, SeaBeachFred, I said in another post that Jtrainloco shouldn't stop posting because of ONE PERSON. I hope he sees this and comes back. I am fairly new to bus/subtalk but I would like to make some 'friends' on these boards, especially with the teen posters. As a teenager myself[17 going on 18], I found TrainDude's comments to be without merit, irresponsible, idiotic, insulting and immature and it got to me. Again, Jtrainloco, DO NOT stop posting b/c of one person and I stand by you and myself and adults like when fellow teens are on this board. I know some of you might be surprised that I am a teen b/c I have a lot of knowledge, know so much about the transit system, don't respond to garbage and don't "talk" like one but I am and I'm proud of it[until I get older of course].
No, I do not work in the MTA.
You're absolutely right. Stick to your guns. As a teen you may lack experience in the working world and perhaps some life experiences in general, but you're certainly no less of a person. One of the things you learn as a young adult is to treat others as you wish to be treated. Also - older folks will obviously have the wisdom because they've been around longer, but they're fallible as well. I know many don't think so, but that's a big part of the problem.
Wayne
I have to repeat your sentiments as well, Flatbush 41. I'm 19, and working part-time through university in a hourly wage job too. I still love my trains, and who cares if someone has a problem with it? That's their own opinion, you have yours. Don't let that get to you, Jtrainloco. I mean, if we all did that, would this board still be here? I think not.
-J!
P.S. Is anyone going to be in Montreal in January? I was planning on going down to NY during Christmas break, but that plan got scuttled quickly. If anyone's going to be in Montreal between Jan. 16-19, gimme a holler!
>>> Why the hell is everyone so scared of train dude. NUMEROUS things he said here were hypocritical, and throughout the whole post, he has been the immature one. And yet everyone has stood in his corner <<<
What makes you think anyone here is afraid of Train Dude? Could it be that most of us do not want to fan a flame war? You have done a good job of making your opinions known. Isn't that enough? If you cannot persuade others to your point of view with logic, and they cannot persuade you to their point of view with logic, then it is time to move on to another subject.
>>> So, what am I saying? In short, screw all of this. I don't have to put up with this crap, for being a railfan. If this is how you guys like to treat others fine by me, i'll stop wasting my time here. <<<
Hmm, interesting. If you go back far enough in the archives you will find a similar post by Train Dude when he was having a bad day. If you do not respect Train Dude's opinion, why do you let it bother you? I guess if you can't stand the heat you have to get out of the kitchen, but if you generally enjoy the discussions on this board, you should stick around and not let this bother you.
Tom
I have to agree, Tom. If the guy's a nut case, and he can't be cracked open, then chuck the damn thing. Don't let this kind of petty thing get to you.
Hey, I'm 19 and a lot of people here treat me fairly well...right guys?
-J(LeungofCalgary)!
J---the thing about Train Dude is that he is NOT a nut. He is as straight a shooter as we have on board, but if he thinks you are wrong on something he's going to have his say. I appreciate that because at least I know where he's coming from and have no problem trying to figure out what motivates him. Besides, this is what the board is for, discussing the merits of the subway system, and ,yes, sometimes, getting a little off topic and venting our spleens. I would recommend a little thicker skins for Subtalkers because it does get a little heated at times.
Don't be so rash and stick around. If someone gets under your skin, then pay them no mind. Anyone who uses an internet message board is gonna get some flak one time or another. Just deal with it like the rest of us and continue posting on what you believe, never mind the feedback.
Everyone here after all is not going to agree 100% on things.
JTrainloco,
You've made some interesting points and I agree with you. I've been a regular here since early '96. However, when Mr. Pirmann started BusTalk I've spent most of my time on that side. A few weekes ago I mentioned in a BT post that while there are great discussions on ST - I find that some folks are quick to resort to name calling, profanity etc. As for Train Dude. As a transit professional... I have loads of respect for him. He clearly knows a lot about the system and he's obviously very intellignet with much wit as well. I haven't really participated in discussions with Train Dude since the days when his handle was "Steve". Train Dude has never insulted me, but I do recall a very sarcastic response when I was expressed my dislike for Rudolph. My thing is that... people are different and are certainly entitled to their opinions. I really don't care if someone doesn't agree with me and I'm not about to insult anyone who doesn't take me down that road first. Growing up my family was poor and I lived in bad neighborhoods in The Bronx. I'm now doing very well for myself, but I'll never forget where I came from. Back in those old days when you had a beef with someone... it was considered cowardly do hurl insults from behind a safety net and I believe this board is very much a safety net. I say this to say... If someone has something to say to me... then say it to my face. Don't get extra bold because they're behind a cyberwall. I ignore many arguments here because I don't want to be a part of the insults. However, I'll say this... I know I'm not the badest person out here, but I know I can hold my own and I'm CERTAIN that many of the people here who hurl insults and endless sarcasm would have the guts to try it with me face-to-face.
You definitely should not let this experience chase you away from SubTalk. Just know that this sort of thing seems to be an unfortunate fixture here. Also - I also agree that some of these guys do seem to be afraid or actually brown-nosing Train Dude.
Wayne
Well put, Wayne.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yo J, I need someone to have lively discussions with! You're one of a select group of people here that can have a coherent and intellegent conversation (I HOPE I'm a part of that group! :-)). Don't let ANYONE get under you skin, here and in real life.
I only read a couple of posts from the thread you are talking about, so I missed it. But right now, I'm one of those people who are asking "do you want wax with that?" (I work at a car wash for a second job), so obviously some people do not know who works these types of jobs and what they are doing with their lives. Don't worry about them, they're not worth your time. If he chooses to ignore you, it's NOT your loss. However, it'll be OUR loss if you leave.
Now WAIT A MINUTE Jtrainloco, why should you stop posting b/c of one person???? Come on, don't let one person stop you from posting, you could do your schoolwork AND post here also. I am not scared of anyone on this board and I WILL post here whenever I please and you should keep doing the same. As a teenager myself; I'm 17 going on 18, the comment by "TrainDude" on kids was highly irresponsible & immature and I will stand by you. I hope you see this post and respond b/c I hate when people try to take advantage of kids and try to abuse kids/teens b/c they are older. You had typed things that had made sense, don't leave because of one debate come on, dry those tears and come back here and continue posting! You don't have to respond to anything "Traindude" says if you don't want to and for the people who are afraid to confront him just b/c of his 20 years experience[which I congratulate him on], SHAME ON YOU!
Listen to me Jtrainloco, wherever you are, don't stop posting b/c of one person and I hope you DO NOT stop being a railfan because of this.
Agree/disagree. Please Holla back. All opinions welcome.
I agree wholeheartedly.
>>> As a teenager myself; I'm 17 going on 18, the comment by "TrainDude" on kids was highly irresponsible & immature and I will stand by you <<<
Don't the forget the famous cartoon that said "On the internet no one knows I'm a dog." Complaints about immaturity are based on what was posted regardless of the age of the person making the post. No one cares about a poster's chronological age.
Tom
... or species. :)
Arf, arf, ruff, ruff....
woof.
uh-moo. :)
LOL....No.... seriously... this is stupid.it's REALLY time to move on,people!!!! Blow it out!!! If anyone has noticed ,T.D has stayed completly away from this topic,and with good reason....It doesn't matter to him one way or another if the young man stays or leaves.We are all faceless names on this board[for some]and it doesnt matter if for some reason,this person disappears from here[does it?]Now, if he chooses to leave ,then God bless.If not,then GOD BLESS.IT'S all up to him,[and the others] Put some Tussin in your mouth, feel better,and move on to the next topic.By the way,hows it hangin' fella?
Yo ... well, it's hanging over there, but that's OK. Yeah, I decided myself to sit back for a few days since it was getting a bit silly between the "in your face" stuff and "you're a fool, no YOU'RE a fool." Only thing that brought me out was the great news about Thurston making it onto Branford's board, and of course being bored outta my teat since I gotta babysit the generator until it's time for a fuel change. When our power company drops the load on the giant toad and the trains can't move out of the Selkirk yard because all the switches are frozen, it reminds me that some folks oughta spend some time living upstate so that can get a grip on what "real" is. Word. :)
I was just there around 11pm to see if any new cars came through...
Man ... starved for entertainment, eh? Yeah, got trees all iced up and leaning into the path, so the satellite's dead, subtalk's about as good as it gets tonight until I can see what I'm cutting when the sun comes up. I wouldn't be out riding tonight. Haven't heard anything come by in hours though once it froze back up again. Dang ... well, channel 13's pulling the plug ... it isn't until you lose the birdbath that you realize what a vast wasteland the local teevees are. Heh.
I know, I know ... off topic ... but at least I ain't flamin' ...
know what you mean....had nothin to do so I went out for a spin myself,down you way to see what was happening,and the roads a nasty!!!! I felt like a nut to travel,but I got cabin fever ,so I had to bolt[and to sharpen up the drivin' skills!!!] It's all good,cause I got out and made it back in OK. Won't do it again,though....
Heh. Yeah, traction ain't something you come by easily around here - no rails. I'm fond of vehicles that don't require steering. :)
"you're a fool, no YOU'RE a fool."
I PITY the fool!
Well, if it's time to move on, why'd you post? If it's a dead subject and shouldn't be responded to, why'd you respond[to the post]. And, it's a free country/message board..whether or not Train Dude [or anyone else] posts about something doesn't have ANYTHING to do with whether I[or anyone else] posts or not.
Basically,the post [in and of itself] was about the cause and effect of some statements T.D. made. THEN it was taken to another level whereas a young railfan chose to leave this board,because he felt in some way,that he [and a few others] were in fact disrespected due to the AGE,and lack of common sense. My response,OK. it's a done deal. If he leaves,thats on him.IF he stays,fine. My point,dont expect to be ''babied'' here.IF you do something,and others find fault in that something you do,and ''call you'' on it....It's YOUR choice on HOW YOU REACT.MY way?KEEP IT MOVING.Your way?..... If you found my post in some way knockin' you or the others...Oh well. thats the way you took it and I couldn't care less.That just how the world works....Don't take everything so personal,you would live a whole lot longer.And as for my responding to this post,maybe it's something someone needs to hear[such as yourself].Relax and enjoy yourself. A lot less ''crying'' around here,the better for everyone.Then maybe we can talk about what we come here for... trains.
I didn't ask you for any explanations of the thread, and I didn't ask you for any advice on how to live longer. And what do you think you mean by telling me to not take things "personal"? Don't make assumptions about what I'm feeling, that's just rude and a little weird. Don't take this the wrong way, but are you a teenager? I mean, all that tough talk about people being "babied", and "that's how the world works", I don't know, that's kind of odd, usually grown up men who say that are big babies who want everything to be their way.
I asked you why you keep posting if you think posting on this subject is stupid. You keep saying "keep it moving, forget about it, etc.", yet, you keep talking about it.
I didn't ask you for any explanations of the thread, and I didn't ask you for any advice on how to live longer. And what do you think you mean by telling me to not take things "personal"? Don't make assumptions about what I'm feeling, that's just rude and a little weird. Don't take this the wrong way, but are you a teenager? I mean, all that tough talk about people being "babied", and "that's how the world works", I don't know, that's kind of odd, usually grown up men who say that are big babies who want everything to be their way.
I asked you why you keep posting if you think posting on this subject is stupid. You keep saying "keep it moving, forget about it, etc.", yet, you keep talking about it.
well,if you feel that way about it,it's because I can. And speaking of rude,the entire tone of your post was rude... but being Sub-Talk,and the subject being that very same thing,I hardly find that surprizing in anyway. As I've said before,if you found what I said offensive,then by all means by -pass my postings like an express A Train. And another thing ,what does mt ''age'' have to do with any statment I make here on this board? Sounds familure,doen't it? Now what ever you do with what ever I said,makes little difference to me,just like your response did. So take it for what it's worth, words are just that,words.If you let someone know that your buttons can be pushed,then you are in for a world of hurt for years to come....
I'm not hurt by anything you say. I just think you're funny..how old are you really, 17 or 18?
>>> If you let someone know that your buttons can be pushed,then you are in for a world of hurt for years to come.... <<<
Great set of posts! Did you guys work this out between you? The previous post being an example of how to fan a flame war into existence, and your post showing how to prevent one.
Tom
Ah, you're probably right..I didn't mean to start any flame war, though. I'll leave it alone.
Tom,my time here has taught me a few things. You can come to this board felling good,and leave it upset if you take to heart every little thing some person says here. Some folks come here just to stir up the s**t,then leave,just to watch the fireworks,or stay just to get in a few cheap shots.....It's mostly the cowards whom resort to keeping a flame war going,perhaps because they lack the mental capacity to ''let it go'',or the ignorance shines through with abundance!! Either way,it's silly.I'm sure the young man's comments toward yours trully was meant to do just that[push the buttons],but being who I am,and what I'm about,it's trully neither here nor there for me. I supervise a crew all day ever day,with as much diversity as this board...so you can see where I'm at with this. Overall,I take things with a grain of salt,and ''keep it moving''.Thats my advise to him ,and anybody else,who comes to here to speak their mind.
I think it is time TO PUT THIS THREAD TO SLEEP!!
Say good night, Gracie.
This is by far the stupidest thread ever on this board. Attempting to rag on Train Dude in here is an excercize in futility.
So Train Dude is still around I see....
What is the official policy regarding trade-in of fare cards on the Washington Metro? I was in Washington last night and today and, being the frugal soul that I am (and more importantly, prone to losing farecards over a period of time) I wanted to consolidate three fare cards that I had into one. (All three of the cards had a remaining balance of $1.60, or one off-peak ride from the outlying areas into downtown.) You'd think this would be no problem, right? Just feed all three into the machine (one at a time) as payment toward a new fare card that (conveniently) was worth the sum of their values. I knew that none of the cards had sufficient value for my on-peak ride this morning, so before entering the system for my ride from Eisenhower Avenue to Untion Station I attempted to trade them in on one new farecard that would have more than enough value for my ride. However, the machine wouldn't let me... I could only trade in one card, plus add the additional 55¢ in cash for this morning's fare, so I now have two $1.60 cards still in my pocket. I'm sure I'll use them eventually, assuming I don't lose them first, but it annoys me that I have two cards to keep track of now instead of just one, and that I had to dig into my pockets for that additional 55¢ when I already had that much value on another fare card.
Oh, and another thing - get a clue, WMATA. There are dollar coins circulating out there, but your fare machines won't take them. Even the soda machine in my hotel could handle them (still not a common thing) and I was glad of it since I was low on change and out of singles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can only trade in one farecard with a value lower than 7 dollars per transaction. Unfortunately, the only way to trade-in cards is to do three separate transactions. This still applies, even if you use a SmarTrip card.
I had the same thought when I moved to the DC area in '96. Anyone who rides WMATA Metrorail regularly will often accumulate a few fare cards with less than the base fare (1.10). I've been good with keeping up with 3 max and using them as a trade in. Sometime ago a WMATA rep spoke at my employer's benefits fair about MetroChek and he mentioned that anyone who has a bunch of low value fare cards could send them to Metro and they'd put the total value on one card. I'm sure information can tell you more about this option. Also - it's possible that a Metro sales booth like those at Metro Center and the Pentagon could do this as well.
Wayne
Does anyone know what the problem was with train 2154, the 0700 Acela Express, today? I was on the Vermonter, which left Union Station "on the advertised" at 0730 and arrived on time in Newark at 1025. Train 2154 left Union Station on schedule as well, but did not arrive in Newark until 1050 (due at 0931). I'm not sure where we passed it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Train 2154 left Union Station on schedule as well, but did not arrive in Newark until 1050 (due at 0931).
So? This has been quite the norm, I've read. As good as the first few months were, Amtrak's really dropped the ball. Gunn has publicly dstated the stuff's a dog, and oh yes, have you seen the newly styled roofs on the Acelas? They pulled the roof covers off the locos to given them that AEM-7 look :) Actually, said covers were removed because a few have flown off at speed.
I'm still waiting for Amtrak to get serious about HSR on the NEC. This thing was supposed to be 3 hours to Boston, and when you add in the average delay, the schedule's more like 4, and even then, it's hardly faster than the Northeast Direct. Whoops, I mean Acela Regional. Maybe branding everything Acela wasn't a bad idea after all - they're all slow and late...
Rockland County college student at Albany killed by CSX freight headed for Selkirk. He was walking on the track with three others, who ran when the train approached.
CSX employee at Queensgate Yard (Cincinnati) backed his truck into the path of a cut of cars being pushed in the hump yard.
Same FEC train (and same crew, according to article) accommodated a suicide in Stuart at 7:30 AM and killed a college student walking on the ROW who ignored the train whistle at New Smyrna Beach at 1 PM.
Gack! One train and crew does two separate incidents in one day, and *then* continues on to its destination.
They got STONES down there!
I just found this on the City of Ottawa website... I think the pictures say it all!!
http://ottawa.ca/city_services/traffic/26_1_2_9_en.shtml
Sorry... I don't know how to post links on this site...
Here's the link
Thanks Chuchubob!!
Well I tried this on the straphangers site, lets see how you all do. Answers in 72 hours.
long beach ........................?
Hempstead?
wayne
Its on the LIRR! : )
I would have said Long Island.
I'm pretty sure it's either Hempstead or Long Beach LIRR. I'm guessing that it's Hempstead before they re-built the station. (The two platforms are now connected by an overhead stairway). I think the area straight ahead of the camera would be more industrial if it were Long Beach.
CG
I say Hempstead, as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure, although it could possibly be Long Beach. But if there was a pari-mutual pool I'd bet $100 at 1-2 odds that its Hempstead.
(I didn't look at any of the other posts)
Jeff, you've been thinking about Roosevelt Raceway a little too much you chalk player (1-2, my goodness).
Well, I'll go for the 50-1 longshot and say...Far Rockaway.
As a kid living in East Meadow, I was able to take an old Mack Bus of the Hempstead Bus Company to Hempstead (what's now the N48-49) without the parents knowing and so I did a lot of railfanning at Hempstead Station. Those tracks on the right always had pre war MU's sitting there making the same compressor sounds as the pre-war subways.
I'll say Long Beach, since haven't all the platforms and canopies at Hempstead recently be renovated?
Juding by the look of the platform with layup yardage, I'd say Long Beach or Hempstead...
Enjoyed that? The next one will be alot tougher.
Is that Speonk?
You Got it!
The old station house is now a small Restaurant (At least it was in 1998, when I took the picture)
I think it still is a restaurant, although I haven't been there in a while, so not sure. Your photo had me tricked, I didn't recognize it at first (it was a different color last time I was there) - and didn't cheat - I only took this photo out after I found out it really was Speonk. I believe Blue Point had an identical station to Speonk when it still had a station. The station seems to have a much more attractive paintjob now, in your photo, than when I took my photo of Speonk in 1994:
Well here's another one: Hint it's also the LIRR:
I sure thought it looked like Speonk!!!
I rode out there in the cabs of LIRR diesels (C420's and RS-3's) all too many times in the 1960's with my next-door neighbor who was an engineer.
It wasn't a cafe in those days; we walked into "town" (a couple blocks south at Montauk Highway) to grab lunch in those days.
Thats Speonk :-P
either long beach terminal or hempstead terminal
Its hemptead. Because: Look far. Do you see the MU? Its curving LEFT. Out of LB, the train curves RIGHT to make the Reynolds Bridge
What gave it away for me was that pole at right with the three rows of insulators. It is at the corner of Morrell Street and Lent Avenue.
wayne
Hey, does Hempstead still have the cross under at the North end of the platforms? When I was a little kid (like under 5) in the 50's and would get the train there with my grandparents I always thought those staircases led to a subway!!!
No, the cross-under is gone. It's now a cross-over. The picture that started this thread is from before the re-construction of the station, so there's no crossover to be seen. They did a nice job with the station rebuild.
CG
Does that mean the subway is gone?
The underpass itself is probably still there, with its entrances and stairways sealed up.
wayne
No. It still runs. You have to access it from a manhole in Webb Ave. Next stop 179 Street.
CG
Well, some people seemed to have fun with Chris Rivera's photo, and we eagerly await his next one, but how about giving this one a try.
Hint: I took it in 1998:
Island Park?
Yup, you got it. It's Island Park. I thought people would find it a bit odd to see a GP38-2 (and FA1 #614 on the other end) there in M1 electric only territory.
Actually it was an ERA "Farewell to the Old Diesels" fantrip over the LIRR electric lines. (And it was October 1999, not 1998, as I originally wrote). The trip ran from Jamaica to Port Washington to West Hempstead to Babylon to Log Beach to Long Island City via the Montauk Branch.
Somewhere in electric territory.
#2 service was suspended in the lower WPR and all 5 service (Dyre and WPR) were running local. Did any #5 trains go to 241, or did they all go to 238, even though the #2 is just a shuttle northbound.
What happened to the #2 in Manhattan?
If you mean during the evening rush,then someone pulled the emergency brake on a 3 train right after the whole train left 96th St and I was on the 2 train that was right behind it.My train got half way into the station then it was like 5 or 10mins till finally the C/R opened the doors to the 1st 5 cars of the train then another 5mins later is when they finally allowed the train to fully enter the station.The whole thing took nearly 30mins untill it was fixed.I don't know who pulled the emergency brake on that 3 train but it most definately was someone stupid.Somehow,to me,it didn't seem like a medical problem.Either way people gotta learn that if they're gonna pull the emergency brake,do it while the train is in the station and not after cause it just create's a huge problem that just delay's the process that the C/R and T/O have to follow in that situation.
At tonight's (November 15, 2002) NYD-ERA meeting, the Board reviewed ticket sales figures for the planned December 8, 2002 "Farewell to the Redbirds" fantrip. While not Earth-shattering, the number of tickets sold to date was sufficient to convince us that we would sell enough by December 8 to make the trip viable. Therefore, Chairman Bill Erland announced to those assembled that the trip will definitely operate.
We invite everyone who hasn't yet bought a ticket to do so. We'll have six cars, so anyone who wants to go will have a place on the train. Tickets are $45 if the request is postmarked by, well, about half an hour from now, or $55 thereafter.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
And for those of you who procrastinated, this is your last chance to ride IRT Redbirds on the "B" division. It was announced at tonight's ERA meeting that due to GO's on the Brighton Line, the trip "may" go to the Eastern Division's Canarsie Line and may transverse the Snediker Ave "el" one week before it becomes abandoned. You've all rode this line before, but with 9' wide IRT equipment ?
Thanks for those who supported this trip by buying tickets ahead of time. If we didn't have enough tickets sold, then the trip would have been called off. If you're interested and change your mind, there's still room ! There ain't nothing that beats an ERA fantrip in the subway, a good time is guaranteed for all.
Bill "Newkirk"
ERA # 5226
I am looking forward to this trip. October 18th, 1998 was the last time I went on an excursion, when the D Types ran to CI via Brighton and Sea Beach for the Nostalgia Special. I am taking the day off from my ususal duties as Station Agent just to attend. Saving those Holidays that I had to work really paid handsomely. My hat's off to those who put the trip together. Count me in!!! Three tickets on order. I'll be in attendance with dear old dad, and a friend, who contibuted the pictures of the Tribute In Lights some months ago.
Is it safe to assume we have 6 Corona Cars to use for the special??? Nothing from the mainline, no? Just curious. R-33 singles need to be on the ends for signal protection.
-Stef
I'm looking foward to the Dec. 8th trip, let's see how this baby tames the Rockaway Beast over Jamaica Bay
I'm looking foward to the Dec. 8th trip, let's see how this baby tames the Rockaway Beast over Jamaica Bay, (assuming there is no G.O. shuttle bus from Rockaway Blvd to Beach 98th st)
Obviously we'll be suing R33 singles on the ends, but what about the 4 cars in the middle? I'd love to see all singles! A train with all fan cars, not that we'll need the fans!
We'll be "using" not "suing"!
We'll get what we get -- the original idea was to have "standard" Redbirds, but the consist is up to NYC Transit.
In short: show up and find out :-)
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Does this mean that the Club reimburses the MTA for the cost of a T/O,C/R and such like?
Absolutely, it means that. We got an itemized bill -- I'm not going to share the items line by line here (especially since I don't have a copy of the bill in front of me), but let me assure everyone present that there were LOTS of items on that bill.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Now this is different from the nostalgia train where the TA subsidizes the cost?
That's correct. We're being charged market rates.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
.......................this is what it is coming to folks ?
WELL A AM A G----D----JAILBIRD THEN !!
Kudos! What a beautiful color shot! WOW!
Chuck Greene
Do not pass Go; do not collect $200.
Love that fruit salad paint scheme!
I hear that uptown D trains are skipping 155th Street Station on the D Line? Could somebody please tell me why?
- Lyle Goldman
I'd guess that there's a GO somewhere in the area. If a N/B train gets routed to the M track and can switch to the local track just south of 161st Street station.
Wayne
Wait a second Wayne, did I get this right. What in the devil is an "N" train doing at 161st Street? I hope that was a typographical error because if it wasn't my train is in the Bronx and it has not business being there. Please tell me I am right.
Fred,
Sorry - I think you misunderstood my post. I was referring to track M that's the middle (express) track along the Concourse line. N/B D trains usually get on this track just north of the 135th Street station and the next opportunity for a train on this track to switch to the N/B local track is just south of 161st Street station.
Wayne
Whew Wayne, you had me going there for awhile. N/B equals northbound. How dumb of me because I was going only on emotion and not logic on that one. Thanks for clearing it up. Chalk it up to a senior moment. When you reach 62 you can have them. H ave a nice weekend.
Another thing to remember, Fred, is that the N and the B no longer run together (at least for the time being). Don't forget, the West End is called the "W". The current "B" does not touch Brooklyn, it runs on the Sixth Ave/CPW line only, and extends up the Grand Concourse during the rush hours.
>>>"Chalk it up to a senior moment. When you reach 62 you can have them"<<<
DO WE NOW, speak for yourself.
;-) Sparky, 2 days older & wiser, I hope.
Somewhere Brighton Exp. Bob is reading this and you know what he'll say.:)
One of the Rutgers connection plans had the N moved over to 6th. Ave. and going to 168th. (Bway side is closed, and Q moved to the connection freeing up space on the AB bridge tracks) I wondered how Sea Beach fans would take it. Isn't that a kind of trade off? It's going where it doesn't belong, but at least it's on the bridge, and exp. in Brooklyn and Midtown. (though local on CPW).
The N belongs on Broadway, period - preferably as an express.
What's Fred's comment on this? (I'm sure the same thing, but still, does he want it to be express via bridge at any cost?).
I think it's safe to assume that's exactly what Fred wants.
If a N/B D train is on the express track at 145 it CANNOT be switched back until 170.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well... that must a change within the last few years because I'm pretty sure there's (or was) a crossover just south of 161st Street between the N/B local and the center track.
Wayne
Peter's track map disagrees. Are you sure you're not thinking in reverse? A NB train on the local track can't switch to the express track until 170.
If a D is on the Middle track at 145, it either skips 155/8th ave or runs express directly to Tremont. They CANNOT switch back to the local track after passing 167th St, the switch is from local TO express after the N/B local leaves 167th St.
Dearest Fred,
N/B= NORTHBOUND
Peace,
ANDEE
> I'd guess that there's a GO somewhere in the area.
I know that: it was the Service Announcements on MTA's website where I got this information from. Could someone please be more specific about the reason for the G.O.?
- Lyle Goldman
IF they are skipping while on the local track, I would imagine it is a "police action" or something to that effect.
Peace,
ANDEE
I sure hope this gets rectified before baseball season or people would not be able to get to see the Mets at the Polo Grounds.
This is a weekend GO.
They can still take the 4 to 167th St. and then take the shuttle back across the Harlem River...
LOL :-) Sparky
OTOH, it'll make getting to see the Yankees at Yankee Stadium a little faster.
ROFL :-) Sparky
Ventured to the ERA Show in Manhattan last evening. Very nice
presentation of NYC Rapid Transit ~ Pre Graffitti.
Also some nice slides of passenger service in Chatham, New York
with Penn Central. And the teaser of the pack the Commonwealth
of Massachussetts, pre Amtrak Boston~Albany eerrr Train. Well
it was designated as such, a coach and and RS-3 serving Smallbany.
[My thoughts were of you Kevin in spirit].
Took my favorite train (G) AKA GG to Hoyt~Schermehorn and arriving
with time to spare and finding a bench to park the postiere,
decided to do some train watching.
Observed the following oddities on the Southbound (C):
1726 - [South to North] 3401/3400; 4047/4046; 3357/3356; 3767&3650.
1734 - [South to North] 3894/3895; 3427/3426; 3873/3872; 3644&3621.
Usually, on the occasions I ride, I do not take a pad & writing
instrument, yesterday something said take it. Glad I did.
Also returning home at Hoyt~Schermehorn and not having the pad
handy and not expecting a odd movement Northbound on the GG tracks,
at 2146, an (X) rolled thru. Yes, they can display an X on the
R-38 bulkhead. Not expecting a non-revenue move and not being
presumptuous, I did not note the car numbers of the R-38s.
[What a mistake] for the lead 3 pairs of R-38 were trailed by
a pair of R-40Ms. The first R-38 set was signed for the (E),
the next two for (N) and didn't notice the R-40M, as I was about
to kick myself for not jotting the movement. Interesting lashup to
say the least.
As many on this board know, my attitude about the (GG)Line, a
stark reminder of reality last evening was when the line was
served by 180' Trains. [Trio of Arnines in the sixties].
We're now served with 300' trains, we come up in the world.
Have to run, going to the annual pow wow at Branford.
;-) Sparky
Can I get a full report from one of youse later on? I would like to know how things went....
-Stef
Those yard masters are supposed to know better assembling trains such as you saw. They are not supposed to mix R32's and R38's (3894/95 are mechanical R38's), just like we are not supposed see mixed trains of door enablers (R42's) with non door enablers (R40M's) running on ENY lines..... The other train you saw was a yard transfer. They are allowed to mix all kinds of cars together for shop moves. The yards use whatever "horses" are available to get the bad ordered cars to wherever they have to go.
Thanks Bill,
Or should I say neighbor in "Polak Alley" in nearby Queens from
this Greenpointer, resident of "Krakow on the East River"
As stated, I am occasional visitor down under the "Sidewalks of
New York", so to me they were interesting observations.
;-Sparky
Well listen and hear me out, that station is teeming with people everyday, 27,000 use that station, and many more use it for the transfers to get home to Queens and the Bronx, that middle platform at Rush Hours is a nasty one, I say they build 2 side platforms and do a job similar to what use to be done at 59th Street- CC. Dismiss the ppl to the middle platform and then open the door to the side platform for people to get on. Its a great way of Crowd Control especially at a station like Lex-53rd. I know this is very imagination orintated, but I say it can be done, might take a few years but the quick advantages that will become of it will save time and ppls stress.
I agree but they should do that at 60th and Lex as well for the N R and W trains b/c on that platform, people are extremely close to the platform edge at rush hour and some of the spacing is very narrow and dangerous. People are literally "squished together" on the platform. There is no room to walk or heck even to breathe b/c all of these stoonads are breathing right on top of you. I'm not even on the train and it is that bad. What does that tell you?
At the same time another reason for the squishness is b/c of Mayor Doomsburg and his budget cuts cutting train service on those 3 lines.
Uncomfy Platform Space + Lesser Train Service = Mayor Doomsburg's Budget Cuts.
#3775 R Broadway Local
and what will happen to service as they start to tunnel?
Is tunneling under skyscrapers really a good idea?
station design may keep that from happening at 53rd and Lexington.
Just one side platform would do. Then you could dedicate the center platform to one direction only (in exactly the same manner as Bowling Green was).
Not gonna happen, though. A cheaper alternative would be to dig a connecting tunnel from the 59th St. station on the 4/5/6 to the 63rd. St station on the F. That would dramatically decrease the numbers of persons who need to use Lex/53rd as a transfer station to the #6.
Why did they decide to route the tunnel via 63rd Street in the first place, in 70ties there was hardly anybody with Hylan's complex?
Arti
"Why did they decide to route the tunnel via 63rd Street in the first place, in 70ties there was hardly anybody with Hylan's complex?"
60th St was already taken.
61st Street would have cost more because the water was deeper.
64th St would have been too near to Rockefeller U's seismograph.
Don't remmeber why not 62nd St. Maybe same as 61st.
Why not 68th in that case? (appriciate the explanation)
Arti
Probably because 68th St is too far north geographically to make a junction with the Queens IND.
I believe 63rd St. was chosen because NIMBYism there wasn't as strong as elsewhere.
The original choice (circa 1963) was E. 76th Street!
David
That would line up prettu close to the local tracks on Broadway before they turn onto Steinway St. What an awful idea.
that was the idea... at first,with an additional line up Northern Blvd.
Careful mentioning that number... someone might think there was a phantom line down there...
64TH st was the avenue of choice for the new Queens subway line,as was 76 st,but the school objected and the Upper Eastsiders[NIMBY] SAID ''NO WAY''. So 63rd street was used,and according to the T.A, it was better routing to the LIRR Main Line for both the Queens Crosstown Express and new LIRR trains.
63rd and 21st Avenue lined up perfectly.
It seems to be like a myth, no one seems to know the exact answer, although I am sure there were many reasons.
If you look at a map, the tunnel does bend slightly to end up underneath 41st Avenue.
I don't have street maps of the city, will Mapquest work? The Manhattan bus map won't work unfortunately. Maybe there is a smaller bend from 63rd Street than from the other options.
As I recall, the reason that 64th St was chosen originally was so that there could be nice, gentle, high-speed curves from 6th and 7th Aves (under Central Park, where there are no buildings to contend with). When Rockefeller University started complaining about what the blasting would do to their delicate instruments, it was moved one block south, and the curves are not quite so gentle.
-- Ed Sachs
It would also allow for transfer to the 4,5,6 and make the choice of sending the F through 63rd Street a smart 1
The choice was already smart. The dumb thing was conecting 51st St. to Lexington/53rd. to begin with.
>> A cheaper alternative would be to dig a connecting tunnel from the 59th St. station on the 4/5/6 to the 63rd. St station on the F. That would dramatically decrease the numbers of persons who need to use Lex/53rd as a transfer station to the #6. <<
The MTA already picked an even cheaper alternative-- it's the free MetroCard transfer between 59 St/Lex and 63 St/Lex.
It be popular if they announced it on the trains and in station signage and it didn't use up your free transfer. Many people take buses to their F station in Queens. Bus costs 1.50, transfer to subway is free. Ride to Lex, get out, walk to 59th, swipe card, and look, another 1.50 is deducted. Who is going to use it if it isn't really free? Yes, some people do have unlimiteds but there are plenty who don't.
No, it still wouldn't be popular. Have you ever tried to get out of that station? Maybe, coming from Washington, you're used to deep stations, but we're not. The MetroCard transfer is a stopgap measure -- a decent stopgap measure, but a stopgap measure nonetheless.
If the 4/5 express platforms are extended three blocks north, they'll end up directly above the F platforms. Convenient, no? That would draw people away from 53rd.
"If the 4/5 express platforms are extended three blocks north, they'll end up directly above the F platforms."
Or even less expensive, and more convenient to the 6 as well, extend the mezzanine that sits above the 4/5 and below the N as a single passageway northward.
That's not more convenient to the 6. IINM, the express tracks are directly above the upper level F platform. Passengers for the 6 can climb up one flight to the platforms or two flights to the mezzanine, depending on which is extended, and then ride an escalator up the rest of the way. (New escalators can be installed at the ends of the platform extensions.) Connecting the platforms also eliminates the extra up-and-down for 4/5 passengers.
And extending the mezzanine might not be so cheap, since it's sandwiched between the local tracks and the express tracks. I'd imagine that carving out two narrower tunnels alongside the express tracks might be cheaper.
I'd be happy with either, though.
"And extending the mezzanine might not be so cheap, since it's sandwiched between the local tracks and the express tracks."
You could curve it slightly west at 60th so that it's under the sidewalk and not sandwiched between the tracks, and connect with the lower mezzanine at 63rd. Also, it's slightly less deep, which cuts costs since presumably this would be cut and cover. Also, then you only have to excavate the west side of Lex rather than both sides, which I think would pretty much cut costs in two. They couldn't do both at once anyway because it would choke the traffic on Lex. Also, one passageway is safer in the late night hours than two.
Anyway, here's hoping it gets into the next capital plan.
Maybe, coming from Washington, you're used to deep stations, but we're not.
Deep stations are less practical in New York because of poor escalator reliability and the very long timeframes for making escalator repairs.
I wouldn't mind so much at Lex/63 if the elevator were a bit larger and faster.
I am not so sure. I think a few people wouldn't mind walking up if it didn't cost them another fare. And I myself get worn out sometimges after going up or down one of those escalators. And in response to Peter Rosa, our escalators aren't highly reliable either.
Instead of building 2 side platforms, build one more island platform. Make each island platform for trains in one directions. The platform can be made wider and there can be a passage to the 4,5 trains and a escalator on each side going up to the 6 train and the street.
[I say they build 2 side platforms and do a job similar to what use to be done at 59th Street- CC.]
Since "you say" to do it, that's all anybody needs. Obviously, you've already done the preliminary engineering analysis; identified property-owners whose basements will have to be condemned to accommodate mezzanine-level access to the new platforms; located any underground utilities that may have to be moved to accommodate the new platforms, stairs, and/or escalators; developed a construction phasing plan which will inconvenience as few people as possible; AND (most of all) secured funding for the entire project. Please share....
At the same time, with doors opening on both sides of the train - compare with MBTA Red Line at Park Street - dwell times will increase enormously. That, in turn, will REDUCE the station's throughput capacity. Try explaining to elected officials on both sides of the East River why hundreds of millions of dollars should be spent on a project wihich will necessitate CUTTING train service.
The following link is to a Baltimore Sun article detailing proposed expansion of the city's Metro Subway and light rail systems:
http://www.sunspot.net/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=bal%2Dte%2Emd%2Erail16nov16
Myself, I don't look for any of this to happen, especially with that jerk Bob Ehrlich in the statehouse. Ehrlich ran on a pledge to build a superhighway in the Washington suburbs; he'll be loath to do anything for Baltimore city (which voted overwhelmingly against him).
Baltimore's rail system is a joke! Both lines run pretty much north-south. There's no crosstown relief; east-west buses (especially the #23 line) are maddeningly slow. Also, neither line gets far into northeast Baltimore...there needs to be a route up Harford Rd. or Belair Rd. (However, there would be fierce NIMBY opposition - the tired old "conduit for crime" argument being foremost.)
So the MTA has proposed an east-west line linking Woodlawn and Fells Point. I would build this as a subway-surface line, as in Philly, but with three tracks underground. Where do the stations go? I'd say the following:
1. HCFA headquarters (the future Helen D. Bentley Building)
2. Security Blvd. & Rolling Rd./Security Mall
3. Security Blvd. between Woodlawn Drive and Gwynn Oak Ave. (Social Security headquarters)
At this point the line would go underground, beneath Security Blvd., Cooks Lane, and Edmonson Ave.
4. Edmonson Ave. & Swann Ave. (Edmonson Village Shopping Center/Westside Skills Center). Park'n'ride lot already here.
The center express track would begin here.
5. Edmonson & Allendale (local)
6. Edmonson/Franklin/Poplar Grove (local)
7. Franklin/Mulberry at Pulaski (express; West Baltimore station on the MARC commuter line)
8. Franklin/Mulberry at Fremont (local; two major housing developments here)
9. Saratoga between Greene & Paca (express zone ends; Lexington Market, Social Security downtown). Connects to Lexington Market Metro Subway station.
From this point I wouldn't go to Fells Point, but instead continue thru east Baltimore.
10. Saratoga & St. Paul Place (Mercy Hospital, city courts)
11. Orleans St. near Gay/Ensor (Old Town)
12. Orleans/Broadway (Hopkins Hospital; connect to subway)
13. Orleans/Montford or Patterson Park Ave.
14. Pulaski Hwy. & Highland Ave.
Here the line would jink southeast toward Eastern Ave.
15. Eastern Ave. in the vicinity of Bayview Medical Center
16. Eastern/Dundalk Aves.
17. Eastern Ave. at the city/county line
18. Eastpoint Mall (Eastern Ave. & 54th St.)
Line would emerge from the tunnel here and run on Eastern Ave./Blvd.
19. Eastern Blvd. at Essex Park'n'Ride
20. Eastern/Taylor
21. Middlesex Shopping Center
22. Eastern/Stemmers Run Rd.
23. Middle River (Eastern Blvd. near Old Eastern Ave.)
24. Martin Marietta (Eastern near Martin Blvd, possibly at or near the Middle River MARC station; end of line)
Thoughts or ideas welcome!
If anything happens, I'll be very surprized. The "timetable" is 8-10 or more years away.
1. The MTA management is bus orientated. The new Administrator is from the bus side of CTA. What message does this send?
2. All the projects mentioned in the Sun article are going to take massive amounts of Federal $$$$, which may or may not be available.
3. I'm not sure about MTA's rail vision. A proposed timetable for new rail is 8-10 years in the future NOW. This from an agency that has a 7 year timetable for a fairly simple double tracking project on the Central Light Rail line. What does this say?
I've been watching Baltimore transit since the late 1950's. The mantra has always been bus, bus, bus.
3. I'm not sure about MTA's rail vision. A proposed timetable for new rail is 8-10 years in the future NOW. This from an agency that has a 7 year timetable for a fairly simple double tracking project on the Central Light Rail line. What does this say?
Those timeframes would be considered very short in New York. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
In our case, it's not NIMBYS, money, unions or any of the things that seem to delay transit and other projects in New York. It's an agancy that (1.) has no real rail vision. The subway is a single line that will most likely always be a single line. The management of the light rail views it as "bus you can't steer". Headway is a fixed 17 minute one that never varies. It remains constant despite changes in traffic and passenger loads. The 7 year double track timetable is just that, not withstanding the know fact that a competant rail contractor could get the whole job done in 21 months, and that includes a major bridge job (the Middle Branch Bridge, engineered to be double track in 1991, but only one track was laid. The piers have the footing for the second track.) and grading on both ends. (The north end was built as a double track railroad, little grading will be needed, all bridges were double track and rebuilt for double even if only single track laid. The south end will require some major grading.) Of course, the brains running the line can't figure out how to run during a construction project, thus the 7 year timetable. Funny how the Streetcar Museum managed to keep operating while its Visitor Center was being built, even though the construction disrupted the yard (which was our terminal) twice. We even transferred the overhead wire spans from poles to the building itself. Of note, the fixtures that hold the spans (no poles to mar the view of the building) were salvaged from the former Light Street Carhouse.
Bah!! Fooey!!!
In our case, it's not NIMBYS, money, unions or any of the things that seem to delay transit and other projects in New York. It's an agancy that (1.) has no real rail vision. The subway is a single line that will most likely always be a single line. The management of the light rail views it as "bus you can't steer". Headway is a fixed 17 minute one that never varies. It remains constant despite changes in traffic and passenger loads. The 7 year double track timetable is just that, not withstanding the know fact that a competant rail contractor could get the whole job done in 21 months, and that includes a major bridge job (the Middle Branch Bridge, engineered to be double track in 1991, but only one track was laid.
I'm not going to claim that Baltimore's problems aren't serious, but they do sound as if they could be remedied with a management change at the transit authority. A new, visionary leader with a better understanding of how rail transit fits into the overall transit picture may be able to shake things up, although there's certainly no guarantee of quick success. Contrast that to the situation in New York, where Typical New York Incompetence is more akin to a disease that's infected the entire political and economic system. No one person, not even a transit-oriented reincarnation of Robert Moses, would be able to change that situation.
We had one. Ron Hartman was pro-rail and much of the 1990's rail expansion occured while he was Administrator/General Manager. However, the position is a political one, so he was kicked out in a snit by then Governor William Donald Schaefer. Ron's sucessor was a political hack, and so were the next two. (average time in office - two years) The current one came from Chicago, where he was in the CTA's bus side. This does not bode well, give the already pro-bus attitute in the authority's management.
The MTA has problems all over. The bus side was plagued by a series of rear wheels coming off buses while in motion. This was traced to a air compressor setting in 3 of the 4 bus divisions and resulted in confict-of-interest charges (one of the bus maintenence supervisors was married to the acting Admistrator a the Bush Street facility, only one management level below his wife) and a State investigation. All the buses are now running around with green flags on each wheel nut as proof the wheels are applied with the correct torque on the wheel nets. Very messy.
There are labor problems brewing on the rail side. The unionized rail employees feel they're being ignored by the union (ATU Div 1330), which is dominated by the bus side. Contract negotiations come up again in 2003, this is sure to one of the hot topics.
On the light rail side, the light rail's Superintendent was demoted late in 2001 and shipped out to the MTA's version of Siberia, better known as MARC's Camden and Brunswick lines, where CSX has to be dealt with, after the two BWI bang-bangs.
All is not well in the Land of Pleasent Living, at least on the transit side.
If you want to see the details, go to
www.baltimorerailplan.com
I've looked at that site, and it gave me resons to be pessimistic. Primarily, rather than being merely an expansion of the current subway, light rail, and commuter train system that is already in place in Baltimore, the plan calls for a whole new mode, much in the way that the Schuylkill Valley Metro project in Philadelphia did. This added a lot of expense to the project because it required all new rolling stock to be designed and built rather than being able to buy it off the shelf. The added cost made the feds reject the SVM proposal, and I can see the same thing happening with this Baltimore project if it pursues the same course.
Mark
I totally agree---I know the feds hold the final key as to what gets done and when, but the way I figure it is....you have to start somewhere...there has to be a plan in place. There will always be hoops to jump through. Even the golden child (the DC Metro) had hoops to go through. I remember in the early days, they envisioned the entire Metro system be operating by 1981, NOT 2001. Then there were plans to truncate some lines (like the inner-city Green to terminate at U Street and the Red line to branch off towards Greenbelt) or relocate other lines altogether (for example, there was a plan on the books for a while to relocate the Branch Avenue segment to a terminus at Rosecroft). In other words, will it get built, hopefully someday, but there will be plenty of hurdles and hoops to go through, but you have to start with a plan, and that's just what you see today.
Mark
p.s.--get a printed copy of the Baltimore Rail Plan, it's more detailed than the web site.
So you think that maybe in time after some federal agencies have had their say a revised plan might be put forth that would use similar routes but as expansions to the kind of light rail and heavy subway system that Baltimore already has in place?
By the way, how do I get a hard copy of the rail plan?
Mark
Mark,
To answer your 2nd question first, I got my hard copy simply by
e-mailing them. There's a link directly from the site.
As for your first question....A system for Baltimore, I don't think it's a matter of "if", but "when". As Dan lawrence mentioned in an earlier thread, there's been plans on the books since the 1960's. The problem back then was two-fold, first, it had to compete with the DC Metro 38 miles down there road, not only in federal $$$, but more importantly, in state $$$, and secondly, nobody wanted it. It's was lobbied against almost from the start.
What's amazing to me is how similar the southern portion present day light rail line resembles the planned South Line form the 1960's, and how many similarities there are with todays plan and the one from the 1960's. Now granted, times have changed and the priorities and the population/employment centers have changed. For example, in the 1960's, there was to be a station on the North Line to serve Memorial Stadium, today, Memorial Stadium is an empty lot, the powers that be altered its emphasis to serve the Waverly community today. Also, the inclusion in the present day plan of Columbia. In the late 1960's, Columbia was only 1/10 in size of what it is today. Mark, if you'd like to get more detailed plans from the 1960's let me know, I've got a book that I bought at a library sale in Towson that highlighted the whole thing.
Personally, I'd love to see it built. The proposed Red Line would serve me extremely well from the I-70 station and the Yellow Line from Columbia.......I'd use them to take me to see the football team everybody loves to hate----My Ravens :)
Mark
You have to love the fact that Poe's death, not his life, is honored by the name of an NFL team!
I hope you're right that this plan will evolve into something workable that will eventually get built. I have a question for you: do you think the proximity of the DC Metro has changed any minds in Baltimore since the first plans were rejected many decades ago? IN other words, do you think that Baltimore's residents look over at DC nowadays and wonder, "Why can't we have something like that?"
Mark
Mark,
Probably both----before the DC Metro, people viewed subways as being dirty, seedy, and loaded w/ crime. That even came out during the design of the DC Metro---that's why you don't see a branch in Georgetown, a subway was a negative, not the positive that it has turned out to be. The only modern system before DC was BART in San Francisco, so needless to say, the majority of the people hadn't seen BART.
Now that many have seen several cities build respectable systems (Atlanta included here), the people of Baltimore feel they want, need, & deserve one too. Plus, with the added popularity of light-rail, having a rail system isn't that far out there as once thought in terms of cost. Just look at Seattle or Dallas or any number of other cities that have modern light rail systems.
Mark
Not yet...Seattle's light rail is still in the planning stages...but I get what you mean. Dallas, Portland, Denver, Salt Lake City...all these places have done wonderful things with rail. I think Dallas might be my favorite story because the suburbs that campaigned to keep the tracks out are now calmoring for lines!
Mark
Never More
Greetings fellow Transit buffs. As you can see by my handle, I'm a Bus buff, but at the sametime a subway buff. I'm sure everyone is familure with Corgi Die-Cast models particullay their vintage buses, and PCC cars. What I'm intrested in is if they were to produce vintage subway cars, like let's say the Standards, composits, R-10's, and let's also say some vintage chicago cars, boston cars, and even old Eruopean cars, would there be a market for such a model?
If they were scaled for HO with easily removable dummy trucks which could be easily swapped for power trucks. DESIGN IN ADAPTIBILITY!!! 1/87 scale is the only way. MTH is taking care of O scale and HO Scale is ideal for desk models of something as large as a subway train. Bastard scales such as 1/43 which are popular with die cast manufacturers are worthless for conversion to operating models. Model railroaders will buy "right size" die cast subway cars by the dozen. Corgi's PCC was an unfortunate choice of prototype because MTH makes PCCs that run on Lionel track right out of the box. The HO subway car field, however, is wide open with only a few brass imports and a few other EXPENSIVE "boutique" items. The die cast industry should DO IT RIGHT for once. Bachmann GE 44 tonner power trucks could be used to convert the subway cars to operating models and the Corgi dummy truck sideframes should be made to fit these power trucks. Also the dummy wheelsets should be insulated and gauged to HO track and the wheels should have NMRA RP-25 countour.
I agree wholeheartedly, John!
The non-operating die-cast stuff is NOT a very big market, hence the higher prices. And no matter how careful the producers are, they cannot read into the minds of people. And the people themselves all say they want this, they want that -- but when it comes timt to fork over the $$$, all they want to do is go to the hobby shop and gawk at the model and NOT buy it.
When Corgi first produced the GM "fishbowl" (New Look) transit bus about five or six years ago, they were doing them in lots of 6,000-7,500 per issue. Trouble is...about 4,500-5,000 of them were NOT getting sold at retailers and winding up in merchandise liquidation outlets such as Tuesday Morning or Big Lots or KB Toy Outlets at far reduced prices (original list was around $55.00 -- Ibought most of mine at $19.95 or less at the liquidators!)
So, Corgi wised up and now they only do about 1,500-1,800 per issue. It's rare to ever find one in a discount outlet any more.
Consider the fact that there are NOT that many subway buffs who would actualyl BUY a replica of a subway car, and we can all see why we don't have that many available.
There are some very, very good HO scale ones produced in the manner John suggests -- by Images Replicas. I've done their R17, R-21/22 kits -- had a lot of fun assembling and painting them and then sold them for a marginal profit, as I don't have the room to keep them. I am working an a set of R15's as soon as they arrive.
Corgi should make powering these cars as simple as possible (5-minute drop in motor installation) and the dummy wheelsets should have solder lugs to facilitate lighting the cars. Tha added volume would more than make up for the added cost. Perhaps Bachmann or somebody could make a motorizing kit so that the modeler would not have to sacrifice an entire 44-Tonner to power a set of subway cars BTW, 5,000 pieces is a MINISCULE run for something like an R-9. the aftermarket will be BRUTAL. Lo-V's or BMT Standards, anyone. Corgi could make>>>$$$<<< if they put an HO modeler IN CHARGE of the program. BTW, I'm an O gauger, Mike Wolf takes good care of me.
John, Mike Wolf has been taking great care of O-Gaugers. In fact, it's because of the R-42 E train that I shed my 30 year collection of N gauge treasures and dove head-long, back into the big trains. My only complaint is the timespan from catalog to dealer. I guess Mike wants to measure demand by advance orders to keep market prices up. I also hope that Mr. Wolf learned from the R-32 experience. I'd hat to think that Mike will finally produce the D-Types only to find them made for the Premier Line.
BTW - I heard that MTH took the CTA subway car sets, put a TTC logo on them and was selling them north of the border. Can anyone confirm this?
Somwhere in the web, I saw a photo posted of the R-42 model with a different logo on it. I really don't remeber if it was Canadian or not.
The last I looked, there were two different motorizing kits available
for CORGI PCCs. www.ghbintl.com & www.bpwser-trains.com
;-) Sparky
Yeah, but they're o gauge as are Mike's
If a subway car can be painted for LA, SF, Chicago, Philly, DC, NYC, Boston and others, then I don't see why not.
Well why not...Corgi and MTH are doing it on the PCC Streetcars.
It's the same body for all the paint schemes issued to date.
At least Corgi, maybe over producing the earlier versions, they're
not all look alikes of the same models of BUSES. Similar yes,
but looking closely you'll see the variations. Not all PCCs
were 1947 Saint Louis Car Company, as both have issued to date.
;-) Sparky
Corgi was supposed to have done the R-1/9 series of subway car several years ago, but their source for accurate dimensions and other specs -- the NYC Transit Museum -- dropped the ball by not following up on what would have been a VERY lucrative business deal for both Corgi and the museum...oh well...can't cry over spilt milk...
Corgi's UK programme in our very own OO scale (4 mm to 1 foot) mainly focuses on buses, but they have done some nice trams too. Their 'Feltham Car' is one of the best looking ready-made models I have ever seen. They are producing some models of very obscure prototypes at the moment, so anything could happen. However, they are not renowned for responding to customer input (other than at the tills presumably).
EFE is another UK manufacturer who have finally put their ready-built models of London 1938 tube stock into production. See:
http://www.showbus.com/efe/1938tube.htm
They look absolutely superb. They really capture the atmosphere of the real thing, and apparently motorising them is very easy. More will follow including 1959/1962 tube stock. Price is roughly £28 per car (45 dollars).
Now, if someone could do the same for New York prototypes, I could have some very unusual visitors on my layout!
The HO scale metric proportion is 3.5mm/ft. OO Scale has never been tried in the US on a commercial basis except when Lionel took a stab at it in the late thirties.
I know that the OO scale is different, but British trains tend to be smaller anyway, plus the gauge is the same (i.e. wrong). My suspicion is that if you put an OO scale British surface stack train such as Q stock next to an HO scale NYC subway train, it would not look too odd.
Life would be much simpler if the British could also use HO gauge, but I can't see it happening in the short term. And of course, there is nothing to stop a British manufacturer using HO gauge for expoer products.
Thanks to MTH, I am full into O gauge despite not really having the ample space for it. I love Corgi's NY Fishbowl buses, and have both the green and blue, and I hope they do the white with blue stripe next. While I am not going back to HO, I would love to see Corgi do some die-cast models of NY subways. I wouldn't motorize them anyway, so that's not an issue for me, but I would buy them to display on a shelf. I'd like all of them, but especially an R-1/9, R-33 World's Fair, R-15 MTA scheme, R-36 Redbird scheme and an R-62 (for starters) :-) There's just something different about a professionally made die-cast model that just can't compete with a styrene kit.
In a recent discussion with my mother, she told me that one day around 1950, she was riding the IRT (probably below 42nd Street) and the train stopped in the tunnel and could not start up.
The crew sent the passengers into the tunnel to walk to the nearest station. My mother was sent into the tunnel to walk the catwalk to the next station.
This was not an emergency. Is there any non-urgent situation today where passengers would be dismissed into the tunnel and walk through the tunnel to the next station. The train was not near a station, it was apparently between stations.
Todays TA is loath to discharge pax between stations. It is done only as a last resort.
Peace,
ANDEE
Every evacuation situation is different according to the circumstances. Things are done a hell of a lot different today than they were done 52 years ago. In the case of your mom, NYFD would be in charge of this kind of evacuation in 2002.
HAHA . . . that reminds me of a story that my mother told me of a lady that found her way on to the, then unopened, and still under construction, express platform, at 59th/lex.
Seems this woman found her way down there, somehow, and an express train had to stop and pick her up.
Peace,
ANDEE
I do recall one occasion while I was in high school (early 1960s), going home on the Brighton line, during a very bad rainstorm where the open cut was flooded just south of Prospect Park station. The train that I was on stopped in the tunnel just north of Prospect Park. After waiting a while, the conductor opened the storm doors between the cars (wonderful, self-opening doors on the BMT standards) and the frontmost doors of the first car on the right-hand side, and directed all of the passengers to walk the short distance along the catwalk to Prospect Park station. At the station, we were handed "Emergency Block" paper transfers so we could get on busses to complete our trips. I boarded a packed B-41 Flatbush Ave. bus (driver didn't even attempt to check the transfers), took it as far as Farragut/Rogers/Flatbush and transferred to a B-49 Ocean Ave. bus for the rest of the trip home. Got totally drenched by the rain, also.
-- Ed Sachs
A truly odd story in today's Times. Manhattan Congressman Jerrold Nadler, the leading advocate of a Hudson River rail freight tunnel, has lost over 60 pounds since having his stomach surgically reduced in August. Amnong other things, he says that he'll now be able to ride the subway again, having had been too fat to manage the stairs from platforms.
That's good news. I have seen Congressman Nadler on numerous current affairs shows on Fox, CNN, and CNBC and was shocked at how heavy he had become. It was a definite risk to his health. The fact that he is making headway to get back to normal weight is a positive sign. I know people who know Nadler and they tell me is a good person and representative. Here's hoping Nadler enjoys riding the subway again.
Someone tell him, though, he has to ride the Sea Beach. If you don't ride Fred's Train you are not really riding the New York Subway.
Next Stop on the Sea Beach, King's Highway.
Fred it's Kings Highway, NOT King's Highway. Perhaps Congressman Nadler can ride my line (the Brighton Line, of course, Q diamonds run FASTER than the 4 and 5 in Manhattan), and he can view a plaque outside Newkirk Ave station that depicts the beginning of the old BRT in 1907 (THE DEPRESSION AND ELEVATION OF GRADE CROSSINGS...)
Fred it's Kings Highway, NOT King's Highway.
The apostrophe is underused. It should be King's Highway or Kings' Highway.
He could do those things, too, but he must ride my Sea Beach first.
I did.:)
I guess that even Democrats can be "Fatcats" 8-)
Nadler was helping support Greenwich Village resident back in June with their protest against building a second entrance to the PATH Christopher St. station. In all seriousness, I wonder if that protest against building a new PATH stairway didn't get the congressman seriously thinking that he couldn't get down the old PATH stairway, or any other subway stairs, in his then-current condition.
Nadler was helping support Greenwich Village resident back in June with their protest against building a second entrance to the PATH Christopher St. station. In all seriousness, I wonder if that protest against building a new PATH stairway didn't get the congressman seriously thinking that he couldn't get down the old PATH stairway, or any other subway stairs, in his then-current condition.
Hmmm. I always thought that Nadler was strongly pro-transit. Guess not.
(Nadler was helping support Greenwich Village resident back in June with their protest against building a second entrance to the PATH Christopher St. station. Hmmm. I always thought that Nadler was strongly pro-transit. Guess not.)
Nadler's point of view is bizzare. While not against projects like the Second Avenue Subway, the LIRR to GCT, and a new tunnel to NJ, he opposes them on relative value grounds, since in his view they just lead to the expansion of the service economy that has hurt the working man by increasing income inequality. Whereas, in his view, a rail freight tunnel would spark a resurgence of manufacturing, since the lack of such a tunnel and the loss of the port to New Jersey is THE reason NYC's manufacturing employment went down, and we'd return to a pre-1970 working class utopia (I don't recall my working class relatives describing it that way at the time).
Nadler's perspective, which is shared by an "economic development" underground here in the city (one reason to be glad Bloomberg won), ignores many things. Including the loss of manufacturing jobs in New Jersey, which DOES have a direct connection to the national rail network AND the port (and better highway connections and lower taxes and lower land costs). It lacks proper appreciation for the fact that the region's main asset, the one that makes it vital, is the ability of our transit system to create the awesome concentration of activity in Manhattan.
Even so, I'm glad he lost the weight, having that struggle myself. I put on alot myself after Sept. 11th, enough to change the way I felt. That alone could have killed me, ignoring the effect of whatever I breathed Downtown. But I've lost all of that and then some (not easy, not fun, for five plus months thus far) though the loses are getting harder with still 25 pounds to go to get to my pre-parenting weight.
Nadler's perspective, which is shared by an "economic development" underground here in the city (one reason to be glad Bloomberg won), ignores many things. Including the loss of manufacturing jobs in New Jersey, which DOES have a direct connection to the national rail network AND the port (and better highway connections and lower taxes and lower land costs). It lacks proper appreciation for the fact that the region's main asset, the one that makes it vital, is the ability of our transit system to create the awesome concentration of activity in Manhattan.
A rail freight tunnel IS a good idea, but I agree that Nadler is being naive if he thinks it's going to spur a huge revival of manufacturing in New York. While the competition among different areas for new businesses is a zero-sum race to the bottom in most cases, that is most definitely true in the case of manufacturing jobs. In other words, manufacturers are the most likely of all businesses to relocate to where costs are lowest, with particular reference to labor and real estate costs. New York is never going to be competitive with the Great Flyover in those respects, freight tunnel or not. And then there's the fact that the national economy as a whole is seeing the proportion of manufacturing jobs slowly diminish.
Nadler and company may bemoan the fact, but it looks pretty unavoidable that New York's economic future is with services rather than manufacturing. That's why he should be vigorously supporting projects like the Second Avenue Subway, which by easing transportation will make New York more competitive in the services area. I'm not saying that the freight tunnel is bad, or that Nadler shouldn't be advocating it, but merely that it's not the Number One priority right now.
What a story.
I can thank mass transit, in part, for not being overweight. Walking to a train, going up/down stairs, standing in a crowded train, walking to my intended transfer, riding another train or bus, then walking to my final destination from there means I actually get some exercise every day.
When I move to Kansas City in a month or so, if I find Knsas City's bus system unhelpful, here's what I face:
RonInBayside with a car: Go from house to car. Drive to work. Come home from work in car. Gain ?? pounds. Gain ?? cholesterol. Shorten ?? life expectancy
?? = you fill in the amount of damage.
Why is it that everytime I take the subway there is always a problem with my route to 34th Street? (I take the 4/5 to 59th and take the N/R/W to 34th, or take the 2 to 42nd and take the N to 34th)
Today I decided to take the 5 to 59th to take the N. As the train goes to 125th I hear the conductor talk about the train going local. After a few buzzes, we are again notified that the train is now going express. This happened at about 11 somethin this morning.
As I begin to return to my home station of 149GC, I decide to take the 5 back uptown at 42nd. I let a few 142's pass by, as a Redbird (!) approaches the 42nd street station. As I get on, I noticed the signal at 42nd turned from green to red, then to green and yellow. We are then notified that due to a mechanical failure in between 72nd and 89th, this 5 train is going express. All of the other trains were going local.. I guess I was lucky. Does anybody know of the "mechanical failure" ? I believe it was the R142A I let pass after my 5...the last R142A set I saw was the 7710-7720 before the arrival of my 5.
My father told me that in the early 1950's he waited for a Culver Train at Ditmas Ave. between Midnight and 1 AM on Sat. night/Sunday morning.
Because it was very cold that night, he stood below the platform level on the steps. He waited for the Coney Island bound train to come to a halt before leaving the stairs. Without a double blow of the horn (or whistle at the time) or any other warning, the regular service train passed the station by.
It seems that the crew was in a rush to get to Coney Island and go home, perhaps.
Does this still go on, i.e. a train passes a station at late night when it seems that no one is waiting? I guess that there was no one waiting to get off of the train either.
I read about that earlier in Subtalk a few months ago regarding the Culver Shuttle. Trains stopped at stations if they see some one on a platform or if they boarded at one of the terminals. My guess is that around this time, the connector to the IND was not in service. Most likely, the train passing by was not in service and on the way to Coney Island Yard.
Could be, but it did not blow the whistle twice when passing the station.
Is it OK not to signal if no one is on the platform?
Currently you are supposed to avoid blowing the horn at late hours on structures when safety is not compromised.
Does this still go on, i.e. a train passes a station at late night when it seems that no one is waiting? I guess that there was no one waiting to get off of the train either.
Highly doubtful. As he or she is pulling into the station, the T/O cannot tell for sure whether anyone's waiting. Even if the platform's completely empty, there might be someone waiting just outside the turnstiles. And it's not possible for the T/O or C/R to know whether there's anyone on the train who wants to get off.
I've never seen anything like that on the NYC Subway or the LIRR, but it was a regular practice on NJT's Boonton line about 8 or so years ago. On late night trains, after the Montclair stations conductors would determine where everyone was getting off. If there was nobody getting off at a particular station, and nobody waiting on the platform the train just coasted on through.
CG
It could have been a practice in 1950 though.
I've heard two stories related to this issue. Back in the 1980s, I knew a trainmaster who, in his early transit days, worked as a motorman on the culver line on the midnights. He said this happened frequently - but because he had dozed off.
More recently, there is a current supervisor in RTO who worked the midnight on the A line. His conductor would announce that they would not be making station stops at some stations (they'd name the stations) and if anyone on the train needed to get off at one of the subject stations, they had to alert the crew so the train would make their stop.
I don't know how true eithre story is. I suspect each has some basis in truth - the first coming from a far more credible source,
More recently, there is a current supervisor in RTO who worked the midnight on the A line. His conductor would announce that they would not be making station stops at some stations (they'd name the stations) and if anyone on the train needed to get off at one of the subject stations, they had to alert the crew so the train would make their stop.
How are the passengers supposed to do that?
Hope that the train doesn't have 75 foot cars or pull the chord, I guess.
I gather that the train had 4- 60' cars. In that case no passenger is more than 2 cars away from a crew member.
Ah, my posting was a bit mis-leading as per a time line. When I said more recently, I did not mean to convey that it was recent - just more recent than the culver incidents. At the time this person was a train operator, after 7 PM, A trains were cut to 6 cars - usually R-38 equipment.
Thats exactly how we did it back in the '80s too with Round Robin service and the last of the 4 car C trains before 9 PM. I had to catch that triboro Express bus at 116 St with my conductor, leaving 9:30, while we were scheduled to arrive at 9:25 so we couldn't do it without a little help. The passengers were herded into the third car, keyed off by the conductor. Two buzzes were passed from me to the conductor if the platform was clear, and if I got two back, it was ok to highball on. Three buzzes was passed prior to entering the next stop if a passenger wanted to detrain, and the train was berthed so that the third car was stopped at the exit stairwell. Almost as good as door to door. I heard the IRT was even worse, with conductors who preferred wheeling around empty fareboxes on that Dyre line.
Does anyone know the ridership of the NYC Subway in certain stations during late night hours? I was riding the #1 from Bergen St. to 34th St. Penn Station months ago and there were still 'bustling' with passengers 20 minutes past 11pm.
Do third-shift or late night shift conductors experience frequent stopping and moving with very little time difference in station stops?
I know that late night ridership is very significant in Manhattan and on the 7. I have taken the 7 home as late as midnight and still have not been able to find a seat until the train reached Jackson Heights.
Dan
Today, I decided that I would see what kind of response my "last" post got. After reading your remarks, I have discovered that I did a poor job conveying my thoughts. Let me try to clear up what I meant.
I can handle the actions of one poster. I've had posters go as low as making deroagtory comments about my mother and father before (look up 'cellies' in the archives). Obviously it would be stupid to leave because of the remarks of one person. But that Is not why.
What I made me particularly angry was the fact that there was almost nobody who would contradict him, and some actually agreed with him. Dan Lawrence actually told me in one post not to contradict Train Dude because he knows what he's talking about. Kool-D responded to Train Dude's post by joining in in referring to us as 'stooges', and he supported Train Dude's remarks. Bill from Maspeth also agreed with Train Dude's post, and said that 'newbies' really weren't worth the time to respond to.
One remark that really got to me was one made by Sea Beach Fred (don't get me wrong, Fred is a good guy, and the other aforementioned posters could be too). He remarked that Train Dude was pretty much a 'straight shooter'. The man made a derogatory remark about poor people. Many of my friends would fall under the category that he described. To be told that your friends are 'jackasses' because they are poor and because you disagreed with someone's opinion is wrong. To have this guy be considered as a straight shooter is even more disgusting. Sea Beach Fred also said that things are said in the heat of anger: If so, then Train Dude had ample opportunity to clear the matter up. He chose ignore me and advise others to do the same. Few have really said anything about this remark, a remark that offends me personally, and should offend anyone who believes in equality.
What if Train Dude had used a racial slur? Would anyone have cared then?
So, I refuse to post on a board where a person can make remarks about someone's social status as a derogatory remark and can then be considered a "straight shooter". In fact, I'd rather have my testicles choked off and then consumed by a boa constrictor than continue to post somewhere where my friends would be ridiculed.
I guess 4thAvenueLocal's remark sums it up best: 'this is the internet....no one cares.'
Later,
J trainloco
Listen...some of us are sick and tired of the flamethrowing that pops up when people runs out of intelligent things to say. This site has been shut down before on more than one occasion because of this. This is why no one responded as you felt they should. However, you must realize that people will say stupid things and maturity is being able to ignore them. If you leave a site with so MANY different posters and personalities because you had a falling out with a few of them, then I must question your maturity.
P.S.-I would prefer that you deal with the individual people which you have an issue with off-site. If you haven't had a long discussion with each of the people you mentioned, you may be guilty of a series of ad hominem attacks and the fact that you were attacked first will not matter. Dave Pirmann is a webmaster, not a ringmaster.
If you feel so strongly about this,then do what you need to do,but my personal feelings toward it tends to lean toward the ''to HELL with what they think or say'' tude. you can post here and convey your thoughts and make your feelings known,[as we all do],and still enjoy the feedback[good or bad].After all,this is a site where we,as transit ''buffs'' TALK ABOUT TRAINS!!!! So as they say,Opinions are like a$$holes.Everybody has one. It's all good!!!!
Live and let live. :o)
wayne
thats what I'm talking about... no one would care,really.
Yes, definitely. Is it worth bragging that you're either right on wrong posting on some MB within the vastness of the internet? I didn't think so... You should get some air. :)
Oh yes, I forgot. Whenever I post something that seems wrong to others, they go all out and start to waste time typing something that takes up my whole screen! Please, I wouldn't waste time like that unless I had to. BTW, no offense to anyone who does that! :-)
I believe that you should e-mail each person on here that you have problems with off site and speak to them threw e-mail and try to resolve this matter. I enjoy reading your posts. You seem to have a nice sense of humor about things. It would be a shame if you didnt post anymore so basically no offense to other people on this bored. Basically to hell with them. Put them in your kill file if they bother you so much. Well i hope you continue to post here.
Best Wishes,
Adam
J click on the killfiles. Put the users' name into them and click OK. There, no more.........The killfiles were created because of similar occurences before.
I don't get it. This site has a whole lot of different posters, young & old, all different ethnicities I'm sure[I hate bringing race into my posts but this is jutified]. If you leave b/c of one person, then there's a probllem with you. I have read your posts and even responded to some and they make sense but sometimes the logic is not clear and people may take it the wrong way. OK, let this topic be put to sleep ASAP and Jtrainloco, start posting again! This board is about railfans talking about rolling stock, the system and at times, things a little off topic.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Good post, Flatbush41. That is what Subtalk and Bustalk are all about.
I post on several boards,
but since this board has so many messages on it,
I look only at those as interest me.
The post in question did not interest me, and so I tuned it out before it got so far out in left field. So I never knew that there were inappropriate personal inuendos in it.
I do not think that you can paint the users of this board with a broad brush (if you indeed had done so... for I did not read all of your post) for it is not that we are uncaring, but that (for myself at least) do not follow threads all the way through.
When you started your last thread, I looked at it, and thought to myself, well, we shoudn't pick on the kids, and then I thought, well, the kids shouldn't kick pop bottles at trains. One time last year I was riding a train and someone (an 18-20sh looking female with friends) tossed the remains of an open beverage container in my face.
Well ok, the car door was closed, and only the outside of the train (and maybe her friends, from their reaction) got splashed by it. She did not see that I was male, white, or even there, she just splashed the train as it came into the station, and it is clear that she thought it was funny. My point is I was angry that she did this. Had the door have opened so that she would enter my car, instead at the other end of the train, perhaps I would have said something to her, though more likely not. (I'm really not that sort of guy after all).
The point being that people's reactions to your actions may be other than you expect for reasons that may have nothing at all to do with you. Some people coming into my office may get their heads chewed off, not because of anything realated to them, but because I am having a particularly bad time with something, and they just happend to walk in in the middle of my snit.
It is also true, that you appeared to defend your actiions, (and again, I did not bother reading much of that thread). But as a general rule I should suggest that you NEVER DEFEND YOUR ACTIONS or positions on an issue. Your action or position (right or wrong) stands on its own merits (or lack there of) on their own, and in my experience, one only looks like a fool when defending oneself. I know how lame I have sounded to myself when trying to defend a position, and I also know how bad others (the Abbot of the monastery for examaple) sounds when they try to defend a position, especially when it is not necessary.
Finally, it never hurts to appologise. It is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength and maturity. It is a sign of weakness when you fight for a position that quite frankly is frequently not worth the effort. Naturally you do fight for something that is important or essential to you, but the opinion of others on the Internet is not one of these. Keep a friendly attitude even with those who are a bore, or who are flat out wrong (they are entitled to be wrong) you loose nothing in doing so.
Do not measure your worth by the reactions of these others. Those who are important to you will take you aside and lead you to an understand of the issues as they see them, but will likely enough not impose their opiniions on you.
Enjoy the company you find here and elsewhere, and step out of issues that reek of personalities or other issues that you do not want to make your own. Do not worry if others do not come to your aid over an issue such as this, for if you would ask for help on this board, people will fall all over themselves to do so.
Elias
That was a great post Elias. Thanks, I needed that...
In a way Train Dude was right. Not about the topic, but about immaturity. It was VERY immature on my part to formulate an opinion about EVERYONE based on the remark of one person.
Anger can do things to a person. In this instance, I became so angry, that I decided that I'd just shun everybody. I guess you could say that I threw a temper tantrum. That wasn't right.
Another thing was that some people actually cared if I left the board. I actually didn't think that anyone would care. It was nice to see that some actually said I shouldn't leave.
The things people do in haste are often regretted. I regret saying that I would leave. Still, with all college applications coming up, and a whole lotta schoolwork to do, I probably won't be able to post a whole lot. Another thing TD was right about: I need to focus on schoolwork now. Stuyvesant gives a ridiculous amount of work for senior year!
Ah, J trainloco, I don't even know ya, but I've read your posts just like I've read everyone's posts here, but when I read your post about quitting here I wanted to tell you "don't go" myself. You gotta take these message boards and chat rooms with a grain of salt- people are VERY ballsy behind an electronic screen, you can't take it seriously. If someone calls you "stupid" or a "burger flipper", or worse, so what? It's like a bunch of people hiding in holes holding up signs that say "you're stupid" and "you're a poo poo head"...dumb, no?
So, don't take it seriously- how can you? :)
Besides, if you like the J train, you're allright by ME.
Stuyvesant gives a ridiculous amount of work for senior year!
Yup... And just wait until *after* you graduate.
I found my first two years of college in NYC a breeze.
When I started taking nursing coursed, I discovered that I needed a nuclear tipped pen to keep up with the notes.
But *now* I am out of college (with honors) and find that there is *even more work*. Oh to be 10 again, and just have to worry about getting a railfan window on the Culver!
Elias : )
Check this out.
http://www.ntlworld.com/partners/ananova/news/uk/terrorism-_crimeflash-_crime-_newsflash/710948.html
Simon
Swindon UK
God, this is bad, at least it was stopped.
There is a short piece about it on the BBC web site but it does not mention the Underground, just the charges. I will check out other sources.
Simon
Swindon UK
Here is a better article
Simon
Swindon UK
Here is a better link, try this.
http://www.itv.com/news/Front1602064.html
Simon
Swindon UK
Were they taking pictures when they got caught? :-/
CBS states that 3 men linked to AlQeda were arrested for plotting to use poison gas in the London Underground. The gang had been infiltrated by London undercover agents. The plot involved releasing cynanide gas during rushhour.
I recall a week long ABC Nightline series that was aired sometime in 1999 that dealt on how anthrax can terrorize a city by dupming it near a subway tunnel, and the catathrosphic it causes on a large city. We all must be vigilant (whatever as customers like me) or as TA employees (like the Train Dude) in observing suspicious behavior in the subway or commuer railroad systems across the country. It may help save thousands of lives
Unfortunately, there's precious little that we can do as transit employees or as private citizens. We must all be vigalent, observant, the eyes & ears of the police and all the while, be politically correct. Hopefully, if there is another terrorist attack on US soil, political correctness will die so no other US citizens will have to.
Hopefully no one will be able to pull off what happened 14 months ago, or a nuclear attack, at least in our lifetime. But a gas attack that kills 200, or a truck bomb a la McVeigh, is pretty hard to stop if the perpetrator is willing to die on the process. I guess it just goes along with the risks we have to take.
Sad but true. Unfortunately, for those who have children or even grandchildren, we need to think beyond our own lifetimes. Some may view the issue of terrorism and how to defend against it as an "Oxford-Cambridge" debate. Mental gymnastics that have no implications beyond the academic discussion. I hope they wake up before we are all walking around is haz-mat suits & respirators - or dying in some makeshift hospital.
I checked this week's TV Guide and noticed that the topic for TLC's "Behind Closed Doors" on the 23rd was "Shooping Channels" or something like that - it wasn't the MTA. Is this a print error or ws the topic of the program changed in light of this scare? (The latest I heard is now the British news media is trying to downplay the cyanide angle and report that these individuals were arrested for fake papers, or some such deal ....)
--Mark
Um, I meant to type "SHOPPING CHANNELS" :)
Me and my BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG THUMBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
--Mark
IIRC, the synopsis stated the MTA segment would be sharing
the "Behind Closed Doors" ep with a QVC "Shopping Channels"
profile feature thingie...
>>Were they taking pictures when they got caught? :-/ <<
No, they were in an operating cab wearing orange vests !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll bet that their advance team took pictures.
WCBS News in NY CIty is confirming that a terrorist attack targetting the London Underground has been foiled with 3 North-Africans in custody.
Man, this had to happen during my first-ever trip to London! Yikes!! I've been riding the tube most of the past few days...I think I'll keep my travelling on the busses for the next few days...eeeek!
p.s. if any LU fans in the London want to give me a ring, I'm at the Hotel Gresham in Bloomsbury St. until Tuesday night.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
pps: Version 3.4 goes on sale next week!!
I am sure that with any plot (still unconfirmed) foiled you are quite safe to carry on riding.
Any problems though give me a call, you have my number.
Simon
Swindon UK
If it is true, it is GOOD news.
The bastards were caught before they did any harm.
Bill "Newkirk"
My reference to "bad" was that this could be the start of a world wide campaign against mass transit systems. I sincerely hope this is not the case.
Simon
Swindon UK
could be the start of a world wide campaign against mass transit systems
Much too late for "start." Remmber the gassing of the Tokyo subway? And the planned attack onthe Atlantic Avenue subway/LIRR complex? That latter occurred between the two World Trade Center attacks.
And the bombing of that 4 train in 1994
Ever since 9/11, I say a prayer that I can go home from work in one piece!
>>My reference to "bad" was that this could be the start of a world wide campaign against mass transit systems. I sincerely hope this is not the case.<<
Point well taken, Mr. Billis.
Bill "Newkirk"
"My reference to "bad" was that this could be the start of a world wide campaign against mass transit systems. I sincerely hope this is not the case."
Terrorists will strike any target they can reach. We just have to live with the fact that nothing is totally safe. Transit systems with terrorists will still remain safer than roads with stupid and drunken motorists, though.
My wife has A & E on. Goetz bio with some great IRT shots of 1984 subway cars with graffitti and all! Tune it.
Today, I took Amtrak Acela Regional #88 from Philadelphia to New York.
Our AEM 7 (I think number 937) struggled to pull the 9 car train up the Northeast Corridor. Speeds were really low, the train arrived at Philadelphia 15 minutes late, the delay increased to 40 minutes by the time we arrived at NYP.
What was strange was right before Newark Airport station, the train stopped and all power was off for about 2 minutes, then the train was turned back on and we moved on. The conductor tried to explain that they were "recycling" the engine in an attempt to make it go faster.
What is recycling the engine? And does it work? (it did not seem to help much). The conductor also said that rain builds up some type of resistance which slows the train, can anyone explain?
Sounds more like a "reboot" than a "recyle" to me.
Well, "recycling", I guess would be to shut the engine down. Shut down electric systems, computers then restart everything. Don't know what the rain has to so with it but maybe the water or debris on the track was interfering with the cab signals? CS are sent via running rail.
Our AEM 7 (I think number 937) struggled to pull the 9 car train up the Northeast Corridor. Speeds were really low, the train arrived at Philadelphia 15 minutes late, the delay increased to 40 minutes by the time we arrived at NYP.
Sounds like the cab signals or a motor blew.
What was strange was right before Newark Airport station, the train stopped and all power was off for about 2 minutes, then the train was turned back on and we moved on. The conductor tried to explain that they were "recycling" the engine in an attempt to make it go faster.
Right.
What is recycling the engine? And does it work? (it did not seem to help much).
Presumably, rebooting the computer. And no, it doesn't work because the if the locomotive was having trouble, it was due either to a failed ASC, failed inverter/motor, or failed crewmember. None which can be fixed on the road.
The conductor also said that rain builds up some type of resistance which slows the train, can anyone explain?
Bullshit excuse to tell the passengers. I've heard better, though.
It's probably old news, but I noticed a few days ago that the new cab signaling seems to be operational on parts of the El (MFL) in Philly. Old signals are dark or gone, at least around 34th Street. It looks like 30th St - 69th St, but I haven't had time to ride the whole line and find out.
If it's not old news, I though some people might be interested. Anyone know the schedule for the rest of the line?
I know they had the Market St. El shut down for several weekends a while ago replacing signals, this is probably what they were doing.
Actually, they've been shutting down various parts of the line on weekends for a long time - seems well over a year. It's all part of the signal project, which is why it's neat to see part of it finally operational.
I think it's particularly impressive that you can ride from old to new signal system (a temporary transition) at 30th street without even knowing it. Trains don't even slow down or do anything unusual - it's totally seamless - at least to the rider. Neat!
i just found out that R42#4564&4565 have the black flooring now,where
are they doing this?in CI yard?since these cars are gonna be in use
for 20 years,what lines are they going to,how many R42 are there?
til next time
The R42 re-flooring program is being done at 207th St. main shop. For now they are staying on the J/M/Z/L lines till the rest of the R143's and R160's come in as replacements. When the time comes, TA suits will decide on where these cars will be re-assigned. As delivered there were 400 R42's. The following are scrapped: 4664, 4680/81, 4685, 4726, 4714/15, and 4766/67. Surviving mates 4684 is married to 4727 and 4665 is now married to R40M 4460 (assigned to CI routes).
Any idea where the re-flooring is done on the IRT trains? The R62/A of course.
The West Jersey Chapter NRHS had a tour of the South Jersey Light Rail 32nd Street (Camden) shop on Saturday Nov 16, led by two gracious and knowledgeable Bombardier technical people.
Some info gathered was that the second car (#3505) was delivered on Thursday and that three more are in transit. All 20 are expected by the end of January. They are shipped broken down into their three components to the Port of Newark and trucked to Camden (only the first was flown over).
Each car has three components; A and B are outwardly identical except for the letter suffix (they differ inside in that one has the dynamic brake and the other has something else), being the passenger units with operator cab. The short C section contains the diesel engine (Mercedes marine V-12) and electrical equipment.
Speed limit for street running will be 25 mph, with stretches of 45 and 60 mph elsewhere. The 34 mile trip is expected to take 57minutes. Service is currently anticipated to begin by the end of June.
A locomotive engineer for SMS has hired on as a train operator, beginning Monday (Nov 18).
Photos have been uploaded to a Webshots page(the bottom 21 photos).
What renders the PA system on each car ineffective (i.e. too much sound, too little sound)?
I was on a R62A #1972 and every time the conductor spoke, it seemed the sound was going to ring through me to crack the windows.
I do recall a similar thread with the R68(A)'s, but can someone give me a clear answer?
>>> What renders the PA system on each car ineffective (i.e. too much sound, too little sound)? <<<
Possibly a control knob marked "volume"?
Tom
Possibly a control knob marked "volume"?
How, where, and who would this be controlled by? BTW this car was away from the conductor's "cab". If each car has a knob, who controls it?
Little teeny crew members.
They used to have conductors in every car, but then they decided to use gnome labor for all but the middle of the train because gnomes are cheaper and non-union.
Not in the case of NYCT's subway cars. Volume is adjustable only in the shops.
David
What renders the PA system on each car ineffective (i.e. too much sound, too little sound)?
I was on a R62A #1972 and every time the conductor spoke, it seemed the sound was going to ring through me to crack the windows, While car #1514 on the #4 had a smooth, steady sound of voice.
I encounted both of these last Saturday while railfanning.
I do recall a similar thread with the R68(A)'s, but can someone give me a clear answer?
NYC Transit may cut subway, bus service, and raise fares half a dollar.
--- Appeared in the small text underneath in CNN Headline News, with "Brace Yourself NYC" being the light-colored titie of this message.
I have seen it several days ago and I want to ask SubTalkers the clarity and accuracy of this statement, (I think CNN is pretty accurate) Any important information?
At the moment, everything is on the table/up in the air. Service cuts and fare increases are possible, but since nothing has been officially proposed as yet, nothing has been approved as yet.
David
Don't forget the TWU's contract is up on Dec. 15. Increased talk about service cuts by the MTA during the most heated negotiating period is pretty much standard operating procedure.
That doesn't mean given the current budget situation that some cuts may be necessary. It's just that while bargaining over a new contract, it's in the MTA's interest to say "we're broke" in order to put themselves in the best bargaining position possible.
The possibility of this happening has been discussed on SubTalk and in the broadcast media for the past several months.
Great, that means I have to wait for TWO L trains in the morning at Bedford.
crap
I don't think CNN knows anything that hasn't already been posted on Subtalk. The state and city need to cut over $10 billion out of their budgets. The subways haven't had an increase in 7 years. Some politicians have floated the idea of a $2 fare. What's the obvious conclusion?
Of course I don't want to see a fare increase, but at the same time I understand why it may be happening.
The truth is that the basic fare of $1.50 has been in effect for almost a decade, and at the same time we have seen the subway vastly improve, MetroCard came out and actually reduced the fare with unlimitted ride dicounts ($1.36, weekly discounts, monthly discounts, FunPass, etc). We knew it had to happen eventually, but it's not like they keep raising it (like they have done in the past). We have actualy seen the fare decrease in the past few years.
It seems that it's still possible that trains can run express to Manhattan from Culver because I remember a couple of years ago, extra F service is added to Manhattan starting from Jay St. During AM Rush, some trains would run light on the express track from Ave X to Bergen St(lower level) then start revenue service at Jay St. (But not the other way around during PM Rush due to a fire at the Bergen St sta. destroyin the interlocking system) So isn't it possible to have only a Culver-->Manhattan express service without a Manhattan-->Culver local service? It wouldn't help the PM rush crowd but it would benefit the AM rush...make half the F's express to Manhattan and half local, or extend the V...Us Culver riders could use a little more service
This is true however V service is being condsidered to go to Church ave shortly, keep your fingers crossed. Maybe even G service too if Bloomberg doesnt get his way. I still say take the V to Kings highway so the F can be a true Culver Express.
(This is true however V service is being condsidered to go to Church ave shortly, keep your fingers crossed. Maybe even G service too if Bloomberg doesnt get his way. I still say take the V to Kings highway so the F can be a true Culver Express. )
I've been told that the Church Street interlockings would have to be rebuilt to get a full load of Vs and Gs turned around there, and that prevents express service for the moment. Also, the lower level of Bergen Street is being gutted and rebuilt as part of the interlocking rehab. Since that project will go on for three years, I wouldnt' count on express service before then.
I've seen the track map of the Church Ave complex. It can't turn around 20 TPH (combined V/G service)?? That's ridiculous.
I think the bigger concern is car availability. You'd need at least 10 extra combined V/G trains to extend both services south to Church. Restoring 450' car G trains is a much higher priority. I'd be shocked to see Culver express service restored before we have a major chunk of R160's in service.
Also, the express tracks from 4 Av to about Bergen is far beyond unhealthy, they are doing work which requires the middle tracks to be used at Smith-9 and they have red lights on the tracks to block trains form using that.
They could have 'interim' express service by F's to/from Av X running from the middle track at Kings Hwy and then switch after 4 Av onto the local track, trains that terminate/begin at Kings Hwy would be local and the G would be extended to Church weekdays, running local as well. You're right Larry, don't count on a full Culver express just yet. If they had never scrapped the R27/R30's in 1990 [GOH R30's in 1993] and never depended on those crappy, nowhere to be found R110B's, I BET YOU guys that we wouldn't have had this shortage in the B division. Losing those 500+ cars could have provided at least 40 more trains. Agree/disagree.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
the express tracks from 4 Av to about Bergen is far beyond unhealthy, they are doing work which requires the middle tracks to be used at Smith-9 and they have red lights on the tracks to block trains form using that.
Actually, those tracks are in prime condition. New rails always look rusty. When I went to the PATH yard in Newark with my dad (working with the 'feds' means he goes EVERYWHERE) all the new rails looked rusted. That's just how new rails look.
During the last summer, there was actually a GO for 2 weeks that required the use of the express tracks (n.bound the first week, s.bound the second week). Aside from using the track geometry car to make sure the rails were aligned, no work was really done with the rails.
The main reason there are red lamps there is the fact that the Bergen interlocking is REALLY f'ed up. I saw the bergen interlocking from a n.bound F (there's a timer at Carrol St! They actually put in a timer!) and all the signals after the Carrol timer to the Jay st. merge were off. That is becaause all of the switches in the vicinity can only be set in one direction, as if there is no interlocking there. So, the single cross on both the lower and upper level and the switch off of the local to express tracks is unusable. The TA doesn't like using trains without signal protection.
The G train's merge with the F was affected too, and that's why G's had to terminate at Bedford-Nostrand.
They could have 'interim' express service by F's to/from Av X running from the middle track at Kings Hwy and then switch after 4 Av onto the local track, trains that terminate/begin at Kings Hwy would be local and the G would be extended to Church weekdays, running local as well.
That wouldn't really save time, and it would just screw people who want to xfer at 4th avenue. Plus, the F and G would have to merge, and that would defeat the purpose of the express.
Thanks tow switch removal at Kings Hwy, express service cannot presently be operated northbound if the locals terminate at Kings hwy. S.bound, they would have to skip Ditmas Avenue.
express service on culver IND
It's interesting that Culver express service was designed the way it was. It was designed as a super express service like the Queens Blvd. IND because it was supposed to have a similar volume of passegners. The Ft. Hamilton Av. line was supposed to extend all the way south to 86th st. Additionally, another line was supposed bracnh off that line and head to Staten Island, and then seperate in to two branches there (like the rockaway line). The culver line would have many more passengers than it presently does (though, it carries a respectable amount for a s. bklyn line with no express service), and staten Islnad would probably be more developed.
If they had never scrapped the R27/R30's in 1990 [GOH R30's in 1993] and never depended on those crappy, nowhere to be found R110B's, I BET YOU guys that we wouldn't have had this shortage in the B division. Losing those 500+ cars could have provided at least 40 more trains. Agree/disagree.
You have to take into account why the R27/30 was scrapped. The TA had just finished overhauling all the cars that needed it, and during that time, they needed 'floats' of cars, so that when a certain class was taken out of service, there would be other cars to replace them. I think that's why the R-16's were mothballed too. After the Overhauls were completed, the R-27's were expendable. R-30 rebuilds should have been kept though, but they didn't predict the upsurge in ridership.
The R-110B is only 9 cars. It is purely a prototype to test the systems in the R-142/3. When it fails, it often takes time for it to be put back in service, because the parts need to be special ordered. If the R-110B was an order of even 90 cars, it would be much more reliable (I liked the 67' length.)
The R-143 order is 212 new cars. The R-42's it is replacing represent 21 extra 10 car trains, an ample amount for the G/V extension. You'd probably only need 2/3 extra G's for that sorry line to be extended at it's present headway.
Larry Littlefield also posted that the relay at Church is presently unable to handle 20+ trains. That relay has 4 'pockets', why couldn't it turn 20 trains?
(Larry Littlefield also posted that the relay at Church is presently unable to handle 20+ trains. That relay has 4 'pockets', why couldn't it turn 20 trains?)
Supposedly there is something wrong with the switches. I guess they haven't been used much, so they aren't in prime condition and need to be changed out.
Supposedly there is something wrong with the switches. I guess they haven't been used much, so they aren't in prime condition and need to be changed out.
I suspect (but do not *know*) that it has more to do with the arrangement of the switches rather than their physical condition. It is like playing chess... too many trains have to cross over in front of one another for a resonable turnaround. It has to do with the length of the leads into the switches, they are too long, which requires a great lenght of time for a train to transit the bottleneck. Remeber that Church Avenue was to be a Division Point, not strictly a terminal for two services.
Elias
Larry Littlefield also posted that the relay at Church is presently unable to handle 20+ trains. That relay has 4 'pockets', why couldn't it turn 20 trains?
Terminal capacity is determined by the number of crossovers not the number of pockets. The pockets determine how long a train can wait before it must reverse direction. There is only 1 crossover for the for the local tracks at Church Ave. This limits capacity to around 20 tph. This capacity is further reduced a terminating train's dwell time in the station before starting a relay. The TA has had trouble turning around 15 tph with a relay.
Isn't that interlocking the same as at Continental? (4 through tracks, relay tracks wye between exp. and local on both sides).
Isn't that interlocking the same as at Continental? (4 through tracks, relay tracks wye between exp. and local on both sides).
The difference is in the 4 relay tracks. Please refer to the track maps that are available on this website.
There is a single crossover between the middle two relay tracks for both Continental and Church. This crossover has a nominal capacity of ~20 tph. However, at Continental the outer tracks extend into the yard. There is an additional crossover at the yard entrance giving Continental an additional ~20 tph capacity. There is no corresponding facility at Church.
There is no corresponding facility at Church.
Aye! But there *might* have been if the Ft. Hamilton Subway were to have been built.
I'm not sure that I would even consider building that line now. There are more urgent places to build a subway.
Elias
"I'm not sure that I would even consider building that line now. There are more urgent places to build a subway."
Yeah, like in eastern Queens, the 2 Av subway and a train to Co-op City. We should have been able to build new lines already [the 2 Av subway got killed by the fiscal crisis of 1975].
There aren't really that many long relays at Continental. That is mostly when there is congestion. They usually use just the two middle tracks. Sometimes also if there is nothing layed up on the back of those tracks, they may send you to the rear layup position and have someone else relay in front of you, so I guess there is more capacity at Continental. Still, they seem to be able to handle traffic with the front two relay positions in the middle. Plus at Church, the two outer tracks can also serve as relay positions since there are switches right there leading to the diamond crossover between the middle tracks that the Continental tracks don't have, taking the place of the long relay. The only difference is that all the tracks can only hold 1 train instead of 2.
How come they don't just come up with a plan to bring a 2nd line back to 179 St. It should be better than the lousy plan of '89 or early 90's with R's making all stops and ALL F's going express in the rush hours. I say extend the V[and maybe the R] to 179 but I would make selected F's express via Hillside & keep the special E's.
a)If only one local line is extended to 179 St, then make select F's express
b) If 2 local lines run to 179[R & V], then make all F's express from 179 St to 21 St-Queensbridge and by doing this, this MAY, I repeat MAY allow G's to go to Continental 24/7. I think this is possible siince 179 is a 4 track station that turns only 1 line but I'm not too familiar with the track layout there.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
The basic problem to you suggestion is lack of trains. Sure it's a great idea, and would make G train riders get QB back (although I don't know if it would be possible to terminate anything at Continental with four through trains there - I doubt it). Actually, I don't know if it would be possible to terminate the V and the G at Continental and just let the R go to 179th.
I don't understand why the end of QB passengers complained when the F ran express and the R local past Continental. IF the R iis made to have the same TPH as the F is now, they would get the same amount of trains as now, except the express stations would benefit from double the service. Of course the local statuions would loose express service past Continental. but I still feel their commute would be improved. Those people could walk into let's say 169th catch an R, take it to Parsons and catch the F, and then possubly bypassing the locals in front of the R they just got off at. They can't do that now. Since all the F's run local from 179th to Cintinental, there is no way to catch the train in front of them.
A weirder thing is that the (E) train runs express "North" (aka slightly South of East) of Continental. Aren't the people at the two stops it skips mildly peeved by it missing their station?
No, 75th Ave and Briarwood/Van Wyck are adequatley served by the F only. Should they have their service replaced by the R or V however, you'll be unable to shut them up.
I'm pretty amazed people don't want to reverse commute to Jamaica or go to Penn Station, but I'll take your word for it!
The people don't want it. Running some F's express along with the R or V simply means the R and V's will run empty. The Hillside Ave express tracks aren't necessary, save little time, and bypass heavily used stops.
The people don't want it.
Speak for yourself. When I brought up resumption of Hillside Express service at the MTA hearing last year, it got roars of applause.
The Hillside Ave express tracks aren't necessary, save little time, and bypass heavily used stops.
It's clear from my daily experience that the station with the heaviest use on the (F) north of Continental is 179th, with many riders (myself included) who have to use a second mode of transportation for points in Eastern Queens. Those who live the furthest out are the ones who need express service the most. I mean--that's the point of express service. And it bypasses the same number of stops the (W) does in Manhattan, enough to make a difference of a few minutes. Sure it's nowhere as good as extending the line beyond 179th, but I'm not holding my breath for that and every little bit counts when I'm trying to get home to my family.
:-) Andrew
Whoops! Got a black "F" in there by mistake. Here we go: (F).
:-) Andrew
Speak for yourself. When I brought up resumption of Hillside Express service at the MTA hearing last year, it got roars of applause.
These same people killed it 10 years ago. In what context did you bring it up? Was it a realistic context? Was this MTA hearing full of transit nuts or a representation of the actual ridership?
The (W) makes 8 fewer stops in Manhattan than the (R). This increases to 10 if you include stops in Brooklyn Heights to De Kalb, or 11 when the De Kalb by-pass is in operation.
A Hillside express would make 4 fewer stops than a Hillside Local.
10 if you include Court & Lawrence.
I mean the stops in MANHATTAN, from Lex and 60th to Canal. Yes it skips the Broadway stops in Manhattan south of Canal, but it takes a totally different route. Where are these Brooklyn stops comming from? Anyway it's four stops it skips between 34th and Canal, and as long as there aren't delays the (Q) and (W) pick up a nice pace and pass a few (N) and (R) trains in the process.
My point is, four stops is a difference.
:-) Andrew
About two minutes. An average express saves about 30 seconds per stop skipped. (That doesn't take into account waiting time, of course.)
Taking the Manhattan Bridge is a defacto express, skipping 6 stops. It's not a totally different route if your using the Broadway BMT.
The 4 station difference between the Hillside Ave. express/local comes down to a few minutes. There really isn't any realistic alternative to the currrent service. Once the E was shifted to Archer Ave, use of the express trcks east of Van Wyck became pointless.
That pre-Archer Ave. E/F arrangement was an ideal one. You had one train running local between 179th and Continental (the E) and the other express (the F). After Continental, both ran express, so either way customers along Hillside Ave. had a one-seat express ride into Manhattan. Now if they could implement a similar pattern with another train today to compliment the F, Hillside express service could be brought back. Given the factors (car availability, budget constraints, etc.) currently facing the TA, it probably won't happen.
Unfortunatley the Queens IND express tracks cannot handle more than what's currently scheduled.
Besides, ridership patterns have changed. When Archer Ave opened up, many of the bus/train transfers made at Parsons/Hillside, 169th and 179th were shifted away to the new line. There simply isn't the need to provde pre-Archer Ave. service levels to 179th St.
Yes it skips the Broadway stops in Manhattan south of Canal, but it takes a totally different route.
Does that mean that the Queens Express between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights doesn't count as an express because it operates straight along Northern Boulevard instead of heading up Steinway St and Broadway? How about the unused express tracks between 7th Ave and Church Ave on the F Line?
I believe a Hillside express is practical IF you devise a good service plan. Now if the line went further east, there's no denying it would continue as a 4 track line to lets say Springfield Blvd. I would make it a 2 level station (one for locals[R,V] and one for express[F] for easy turnarounds) and G's should be able to run to 71 Av 24/7.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
A Hillside Express extended to Springfield Boulevard or even further out would mean that there would be demand for extra tracks from Continental to Queens Plaza.
What I would suggest would be a spur from East of 23rd/Ely to a lower level at Queens Plaza then as a tube under Queens Blvd (IINM it is wide enough to avoid the El footings at this point). This would be joined by a spur from East of 21st/Queensbridge. The first stop would be 52nd St, followed by 69th St, then Grand Ave Newtown. This line would then descend to beneath the existing Queens Blvd line, only calling at 71st/Continental in a lower level, then emerge as the existing express tracks at Union Turnpike. This would have the advantages of the "Super-Express" but would have enough stops to serve the communities in between.
The people didn't want it b/c the old plan was just absurd. I believe this would bring more patronage to the V BUT if rolling stock was there, the V would have been going to Brooklyn already, I know the V would mirror the F but it would be the local version and the F would go back to where it belongs, on the Culver & Hillside express tracks.
The only way to restore express service all the way to 179th is to have whatever train which runs local from 75th Ave east run express from Continental Ave. west. This was the setup from 1950 to 1988. After Archer Ave opened, things changed. Merely extending the R or V or G to 179th St to replace the E failed because it added an extra 10-12 minutes to any local station rider east of Continental. Since one of the two expresses now must be diverted to Jamaica Center, there is no realistic way to restore express service to/from 179th St.
"Since one of the two expresses now must be diverted to Jamaica Center, there is no realistic way to restore express service to/from 179th St."
There are still 18 tph from Hillside. You could have 9 run express and 9 local. The 9 local trains would be better than or roughly comparable to what many outer stations get (Sea Beach, Bay Ridge, Brighton local, Lenox, New Lots, 1/9 and J/Z skip stop stations, C, G, M, Dyre Ave Line).
Someone could do the math of whether skipping the 4 local stations justifies the local customers getting 9 tph instead of 18 tph, but it isn't a totally obvious choice. It's not as obviously useless as the W express in Astoria, where the trains didn't get a chance to fill up before running express.
Since when has Hillside gotten 18tph? I remember 15tph before the 63rd connector project, and now 12 tph, plus a few E's running express, but never a full 18tph at local stations.
If a Hillside express became a real big demand, you could split up the "E" train rush hours. 6-7 tph to 179th, and 10-11 trains to Jamaica Center. Simple as that.
15 F trains per hor, plus the E special put-ins equals 18 TPH at peak times. I'd have no problem running those special E's express from 179th.
How about specials via 63rd? (this is for 2004 and later)
Yeah, many of us subtalkers waged MANY serious (but friendly) battles on this issue and it'll probably come up again. I've always believed that running a regular Q service express all the way to 179 would improve Queens Blvd service, giving its riders more options. Some agreed and some disagreed but ultimately it lies in the MTA hands.
Yeah, many of us subtalkers waged MANY serious (but friendly) battles on this issue and it'll probably come up again. I've always believed that running a regular Q service express all the way to 179 would improve Queens Blvd service, giving its riders more options. Some agreed and some disagreed but ultimately it lies in the MTA's hands.
With the E specials running express, there's no need.
Oh, there's a need. The problem is that there isn't any capacity left to do it.
There's no room for another 10-12 tph on the Queens Blvd. express.
First off, I thought that the F was reduced to 12 tph. (Do the math: 15 F tph, 15 E tph from Jamaica and 3 E tph from 179th equals 33 tph!!!!) With V running to 6th av, and the E taking many F passengers to 53rd, the F got a service reduction.
I've heard that the 179th E trains already run exp.
Yes, in fact the special E's do run express to 179 St. If you decide to take a joyride there one day[I plan on looking out for one of those trains myself and hopefully catching one], check it out, and look out for signs, particularly at Parsons Blvd, they definitely have signs for these E's saying that they run there in the rush hours. I thought F's were previously 16-18 tph before the V jacked some F trains
I thought F's were previously 16-18 tph before the V jacked some F trains
F trains were always listed at 15tph. Is it possible that they operated more? Yup.
From what i've been told, the F runs at 15 TPH from Queens in the AM and to Queens in the PM rush hours. It runs 14 TPH in the opposing direction.
I really feel the TA should consider lengthening the E WTC stub tracks southward into the WTC site so that terminal can handle more than the 12-15 TPH it currently does. Then E service could be jacked up to 18 TPH, with 6 TPH leaving 179th and running express on Hillside every morning between 7 & 9 AM, in a similar way that the IRT runs split 5 service in the Bronx.
"I really feel the TA should consider lengthening the E WTC stub tracks southward into the WTC site so that terminal can handle more than the 12-15 TPH it currently does."
The N/R/W tracks come in under Church St. immediately to the south of the E terminus.
Also, if you added 3 E trains, you'd have to subtract 3 F trains. That would leave insufficient QB express service to 6th Ave and make the Fs REALLY crowded.
With the V train, the F at 12 TPH would be adequate to access 6th Ave. It's the E train which now carries more people.
Before December 16, 2001: 12 tph E, 18 tph F
After December 16, 2001: 15 tph E (including 3 to 179), 15 tph F
Jamaica Center can't handle more than 12 tph. That's why the extra E's go to 179.
Jamaica Center can't handle more than 12 tph. That's why the extra E's go to 179.
I didn't realize that Jamaica Center is at capacity on the E. I'm amazed that they didn't allow for more capacity when they built the station. I guess that has something to do with the fact that upper JC was originally supposed to be an intermediate station, not a terminal when first planned.
What is the max TPH at some of the other "temporary" terminals like Flatbush Ave (2/5)?
The problem with Jamaica Center is that the crossover is too far back. It's positioned better at Flatbush, so the capacity there is about 15 tph, IINM.
Crazy idea - probably would never work - extend the R train as the Hillside Express having been LOCAL on QB!
There aren't really that many long relays at Continental.
There aren't that many instances when they operate more than 20 tph.
Plus at Church, the two outer tracks can also serve as relay positions since there are switches right there leading to the diamond crossover between the middle tracks that the Continental tracks don't have, taking the place of the long relay. The only difference is that all the tracks can only hold 1 train instead of 2.
The capacity for changing direction is goverened by the speed by which a train can pass over the crossover. It must do so twice. No other train can use the crossover during this time. Suppose a crossover is 150 feet long, the train length is 600 feet and the average speed is 7 mph. The train must travel 750 feet to clear the crossover. It will take 73 seconds to accomplish this. It will also take time for the tower to change the switch. Assume this takes around 12 seconds. This brings the total up to 85 seconds each way or 170 seconds for both trips. This implies an effective limit of 21 tph.
If the train could move faster over the switch, such as might happen if there were no bumper at the end of the relay tracks then the train speed could increased. This would reduce the time it takes to clear the crossover. One could also have better tower operation and faster acting switches. The new electric switches are approximately 4 seconds slower than the pneumatic switches they are replacing.
There is a technique that requires uneven headways and 2 pockets. This results in decreasing the time spent in the crossover by 25% for two successive trains. This would increase the maximum service level by 33%. So, 28 tph is possible.
"The capacity for changing direction is goverened by the speed by which a train can pass over the crossover."
With the current NYCT policy of being absolutely sure no passengers are on a train before it goes into a relay, the capacity for changing direction is limited by the dwell time in the station before going into the relay.
With the current NYCT policy of being absolutely sure no passengers are on a train before it goes into a relay, the capacity for changing direction is limited by the dwell time in the station before going into the relay.
I was referring to the capacity. This is the maximum figure that can be attained. NYCT can reduce service levels to well below this capacity with operating rules, such as the fumigation rule. It cannot increase service levels above this capacity through operating rules.
There are several instances where the relatively new fumigation rule reduces service options. The case of running full time G service to Forest Hills comes to mind. Others include increasing service levels on the Lex Ave local and express.
>the fumigation rule.
Is that your term or the PC term? Are we going to call the homeless full time night railfans? I like Urban Pioneer.
With the current NYCT policy of being absolutely sure no passengers are on a train before it goes into a relay.....
If it is important to empty a train in a hurry, they could put 10 platform conductors at the terminal, and they could empty that sucker in less than 60 seconds.
Give them rubber hoses, and you can cut that figure in half.
: )-
it is important to empty a train in a hurry, they could put 10 platform conductors at the terminal, and they could empty that sucker in less than 60 seconds.
Not good enough. We've already noted that the two-way traversing of the crossover consumes 170 seconds. If another 60 seconds is added to the common area, then this becomes 230 seconds. The turning capability is thereby reduced to 15 tph.
My impression was that he had said that the limiting factor was not the switch but the platform. My suggestion to empty the train more quickly allows it to enter the interlocking sooner than what it would have been able to do otherwise, returning the bottleneck to the interlock rather than keeping it (the bottleneck) on the platform. To this extent it does not add to the turn around time, but rather speeds things up.
Actually, 10 platform conductors should be able to assure an empty train in under 15 seconds rubber hoses or not.
Elias
Correction -- the R-143 series isn't replacing any cars (unless people choose to consider them as a several-years-later replacement for the R-30 series).
David
I mean that it is replacing these cars on the BMT east, which in turn allows 21 extra 10 car trains on other lines.
It's interesting that Culver express service was designed the way it was. It was designed as a super express service like the Queens Blvd. IND because it was supposed to have a similar volume of passegners. The Ft. Hamilton Av. line was supposed to extend all the way south to 86th st. Additionally, another line was supposed bracnh off that line and head to Staten Island, and then seperate in to two branches there (like the rockaway line). The culver line would have many more passengers than it presently does (though, it carries a respectable amount for a s. bklyn line with no express service), and staten Islnad would probably be more developed.
That, strictly speaking is NOT part of the Culver Line. The Culver Line is the old BMT elevated between Ditmas Avenue and Coney Island. To understand *why* I suggested that the (V) train be the Culver Express and that it terminate at Kings Highway and not at Coney Island, you need to understand the history of that line before it was connected to the IND.
Originally it connected to the BMT at 9th Avenue and 36th Street. Prior to the construction of the 4th Avenue (BMT) subway, it ran wooden cars over the 5th Avenue Elevated to Fulton Street Ferry. After the connection to the 4th Avenue Subway, Steel Cars had to be used in the subway, and with not enough of them to go around, they terminated at Kings Highway, and passengers for Coney Island would have to change there for a wooden el car from Fifth Avenue, or later, when that was torn down, from 9th Avenue.
Now even the remants of the Culver Shuttle and the Culver Line's connection to the BMT gone, we are still constrained by the infrastructure, which I suggest we use to our advantage, instead of trying to fight it.
The (G) should be LOCAL on Smith Street and terminate at Church Avenue. The (F) should be LOCAL both on Smith Street and on the Culver Line because first, it is a 24/7 line and next because the people now receiving (F) service on Smith Street do not want to loose it.
The Culver Express (and there needs to be one) would then be the (V) train, and it will run express both on Smith Street (lower level) and on McDonald Avenue (The *real* Culver Line). And as a daytime only service, it requires no alternate services when it is not running.
Another opiton that I like is switch the (V) at West 4th Street to terminate it at Chambers Street. In which case the (C) train would be switched to the Culver service described above.
This is aobut the only MAJOR service extension that I can see that does not require new crossings and new Manhattan trunk lines.
Elias
OK, send the "C" to Culver and terminate the "V" at Chambers-WTC, then who's the Fulton Local, the "E"?
wayne
then who's the Fulton Local
That's what I was thinking. The C can't be extended there because it is needed on Fulton Street as the local, while the A is running Express. You would have to extend the E then to Euclid. DOing all this would need a major increase in trainsets. I think the C should stay where it is, and just stick to the V extension idea.
(The Culver Express (and there needs to be one) would then be the (V) train, and it will run express both on Smith Street (lower level) and on McDonald Avenue (The *real* Culver Line). And as a daytime only service, it requires no alternate services when it is not running.)
The problem with going all the way down to Kings Hwy, rather than Church, is that you need even more trains, and even more cars. And the increase in ridership, if it were to occur? It would come off the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton at the points closest to the Culver, thus requiring a trains per hour reduction on those lines. In short, you'd need a substantial population and employment increase in southern Brooklyn to do this.
I still think the most likely F express scenario is to have, say, 7-8 F locals to Church with the G, and 7-8 F expresses to Stillwell. You'd just be balancing the F line in Queens and Brooklyn at rush hour. We'd all have to wait longer, but south Brooklyn riders would travel faster. And 7-8 tph is all you get on the alternative lines.
I still think the most likely F express scenario is to have, say, 7-8 F locals to Church with the G, and 7-8 F expresses to Stillwell. You'd just be balancing the F line in Queens and Brooklyn at rush hour. We'd all have to wait longer, but south Brooklyn riders would travel faster.
I think that is a non-winner for almost everybody. The express will be about 4 minutes faster than present service. However, unless somebody is entering at Church or 7th Ave, he will have to wait 4 minutes longer. Suppose somebody is entering south of Church. It's a wash - 4 minutes increased waiting time and 4 minutes less travel time - net 0. Suppose somebody is entering at a local station north of Church. The waiting time is 4 minutes longer and the travel time is the same - net 4 minutes longer travel time. Suppose somebody enteres at Church, 7th Ave or Bergen. Those entering at Church will get the next train. The waiting time is the same the travel time is the same if it is a local and is 4 minutes shorter for the express and the same for a local - net 2 minutes saving. Suppose the person enteres at 7th Ave. The waiting time is the same, the travel time is 2 minutes shorter if it's an express or the same time if it's a local - net 1 minute saved. The time is the same for Bergen, except the passenger has to ping pong between the levels.
So, only people entering at Church or 7th Ave would see any savings. Those entering below Church would have a wash. Those entering above Church would see their time increased by 4 minutes. Those entering at Church would see an average savings of 2 minutes and those entering at 7th Ave would have a 1 minute savings. Now, suppose we weight these figures by the number of passengers in each category. I would assume that the number of passengers entering north of Church but not including 7th Ave outnumber those entering at Church and 7th Ave. Thus, overall it's a net loser for the passengers.
BTW, do you get on at either Church or 7th Ave? :-)
1. 4th avenue now has a direct connection to the crosstown line.
2. His calculations are a bit off. F trains don't operate 14 or 16 trains to brooklyn anymore. It's 12. So, now you'd have 6 locals and 6 expresses: 10 minute waits.
I still say extend the V at 8tph to bklyn, 10 F tph (terminating the others at 2nd av). Then, passengers at express stations get a big boost, and passengers at local stations won't loose too much service.
BTW: The enterprising rider between Church and 7th av gains service: They will get on a G train and ride it to 7th av and then take either the first F or V (or under Larry's plan, F exp or local). In the PM, they'll do the reverse.
BTW: The enterprising rider between Church and 7th av gains service: They will get on a G train and ride it to 7th av and then take either the first F or V (or under Larry's plan, F exp or local). In the PM, they'll do the reverse.
Not really. The time running time savings for the express is 4 minutes. The service level for the combined F service is 15 tph or 4 minute headway. The express and local should be scheduled to have uniform headways north of Bergen St. This implies that both locals and expresses should be scheduled to leave Church at the same time. This will guarantee that F trains bound for Manhattan will arrive at Jay St at 4 minute intervals. This essentially means that expresses will not pass locals during the express run between Church and Bergen. I'd assume people would figure that out pretty quickly.
But a local passenger who just missed an F local could take a G to an express stop and catch up with the next express, thereby saving four minutes.
"The service level for the combined F service is 15 tph or 4 minute headway."
This myth keeps perpetuating itself. The schedule says "every 4 to 6 minutes." That sounds more like approx. 12 tph to me.
Of course, the schedule isn't perfectly accurate. It may mean that trains are scheduled every 4 minutes but there are occasional 2-minute delays. Or it may not.
This page listing scheduled departures from Jay Street shows 14 Manhattan-bound F trains between 8 and 9, with gaps of 4-5 minutes (4 minutes consistently between 8:06 and 8:50).
The restoration of Culver express service will benefit those who ride the F from Ditmas Ave. south. No real benefit will be had by those who use the Smith St. local stops between Jay & Church, with the possible exception of less crowded trains.
Originally it connected to the BMT at 9th Avenue and 36th Street. Prior to the construction of the 4th Avenue (BMT) subway, it ran wooden cars over the 5th Avenue Elevated to Fulton Street Ferry. After the connection to the 4th Avenue Subway, Steel Cars had to be used in the subway, and with not enough of them to go around, they terminated at Kings Highway, and passengers for Coney Island would have to change there for a wooden el car from Fifth Avenue, or later, when that was torn down, from 9th Avenue.
I know all about the history of that line, and the present routing makes much more sense, though I **wish** that they had decided to keep the Culver shuttle in place, but it's elimination makes sense actually.
The (G) should be LOCAL on Smith Street and terminate at Church Avenue. The (F) should be LOCAL both on Smith Street and on the Culver Line because first, it is a 24/7 line and next because the people now receiving (F) service on Smith Street do not want to loose it.
The Culver Express (and there needs to be one) would then be the (V) train, and it will run express both on Smith Street (lower level) and on McDonald Avenue (The *real* Culver Line). And as a daytime only service, it requires no alternate services when it is not running.
I say make the (F) the express, because it operates more tph, and because it is the line that runs out to Coney Island. One of the main reasons for an express is so that you can have a faster ride for passengers coming out from the far reaches of the borough. That means that the train should be operated like the (A) train is presently operated with the (C). Having the express terminate at Kings hwy defeats the purpose of an express (much like the IRT in brooklyn, that needs to be changed).
Were the decision up to me, the F/V service would be operated like present N/R service. Some N/R trains terminate at Whitehall, and I'd do the same at 2nd avenue with F/V trains, sending only 10 of 12 F trains to brooklyn, and also terminating 1 V tph at 2nd av. This would be done weekdays only (like brighton service). You could probably reduce crowding on Brighton if this was done.
Another poster has suggested making a new route off of Culver, having the TA take-over the railroad that crosses under the Culver after Ditmas (the old LIRR bay ridge line?) and operate a line out to underserved areas through this line. This would involve tunneling undergorund to that railroad, but it would be fairly cheap, and would provide service where it is badly needed. Thanks to Chruch's lower level layout, you could keep Church as a terminal too.
This is aobut the only MAJOR service extension that I can see that does not require new crossings and new Manhattan trunk lines.
Actually, 'B' division trackage on Manhattan trunk lines has room for service additions. When both sides of the Manhattan bridge are open, there will be space on almost every line, (xcept the 8th/6th av local tracks. Increasing service there would create IRT style delays).
If they had never scrapped the R27/R30's in 1990 [GOH R30's in 1993] and never depended on those crappy, nowhere to be found R110B's, I BET YOU guys that we wouldn't have had this shortage in the B division.
YOu are right about the R27-30's, they could have lasted much longer (althought they wanted all trains to be air conditioned). The R110B's however were never depended on. They were test trains right from the beginning, and never meant to be anything more. The result of the R110 is the R143.
Ok so the Church Ave terminal doesnt have that many pockets to turnarund 20+ trains but G trains are only 4 cars (75 footers) long and there is no extra trains to place since it just extends the running. Why not run this service during weekdays while it goes to Court Sq. As for the V it runs every 8 to 10 mins all day so giving it a good number of stops can increase the wait time and add the 6 more trains during rush hour to facilite this surge in service. i can say it would affect the 6 Ave service by clogging the line with both F and V trains. The service pattern now is that there is 2 to 3 F's to 1 V so obviously there should be a sacrifice in F service.
In Conclusion, the TA can do a modest plan and extend the G to Church Ave after they do thier construction on Bergen st and replace those switches at Church Ave with air switches to handle capacity.
Now here are some route extensions that make sense.
1) Extend and Terminate the (G) at Church Street
2) Run the (F) as it is now, local on Smith Street to Coney Island
3) Run the (V) EXPRESS on both Smith Street and on the Culver to Kings Highway at all day times.
This way no Smith Street Customers can complain of a CUT BACK in service, Yet we provide a good daytime express service from the Culver to Manhattan.
Elias
I remember some years back that there were some King
s Highway F's (or it could have been Coney Island ones, with the Kings Highway ones running local - I don't remember) that used to run express on the Culver (not Smith). Why did they stop doing this?
Kings Highway F ran local; Coney Island F's ran express. This service outlived the express service on the 4-track IND stretch of the Culver.
Yes, this service lasted into 1987. However, it was useless and it cut service to the 4 bypassed stops by 50%.
That's why I don't feel they should use the express track, unless they add another line such as the V to it. Cutting the F in half would be a big mistake. The local station passengers would have good reason to complain.
This service stopped in 1987 because it cut F service in half and I think the system went through service cuts and the Culver express got killed.
>This way no Smith Street Customers can complain of a
>CUT BACK in service, Yet we provide a good daytime
>express service from the Culver to Manhattan.
Your plan creates excessive service south of Church on the elevated Culver line. With V service supplementing the G on the Smith St. local, nobody can complain, as they had when only the G ran local here during times of express usage.
The configuration of Church Ave. can quite easily turn around 20 TPH if operated at peak efficiency. Larry has hinted that the condition of the trackage south of Church is not good, so it would have to be replaced. That's understandable, as all unused trackage on the Smith St. IND is currently in pretty bad shape.
Another possibility is to use switches south of Ditmas Ave to turn some V or G trains at times of peak usage.
New floors on R-32s
Is the linoleum floor replacement program finished ?
I haven't see any of the cars with tan floors lately.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nope, I was on an E train earlier this week with one pair that had a very soft floor.
With all this talk of service cuts and fare increases, hasn't NYCT considered reinstituting ads on the back of Metrocards to raise revenues ?
This was going pretty good some years ago, but they have stopped. Missed opportunity for extra cash ?...Seems that way. I don't think this would advert a fare hike, but every little bit helps.
Bill "Newkirk"
How about the MTA gains money by turning NYC, and Long Island Trains and busses into people carrying bilboards? How about a nice Visa bilboard on the side of a R142, or a Pepsi commercial on a moving M-7. Hey, your imaginaton is the limit.
It's never going to happen. I remember reading on Bustalk some time ago that full-wrap ads were done for since people were complaining them to be too sightly. They are now only done on Queens' Private Lines, with bad taste.
>>>"They are now only done on Queens' Private Lines"<<<
also on Liberty Lines buses from da Bronx [Pelham Parkway and
Riverdale], not so on New York Bus Service Buses.
;-) Sparky
I think I had Calvin Klein on the back of my MetroCard years ago. I bought it at Grand Street. Not sure where it went now.
AFAIK, the only recent special edition card was for Lincoln Center's Mostly Mozart Festival. I bought a bunch from the machines at 66th Street, but they're all out. I don't know if they were available anywhere else -- even the Transit Museum store at GCT didn't have the cards or any leads.
Don't forget those Mets cards too.
Don't forget those Mets cards too. But those were related to transit in one way or another but not fledged 100% advertising where there's no logo but the advertiser's.
I don't think I ever saw them. When were they in distribution?
Summer 2001
Mostly Mozart was this past summer.
And the winter featured two versions of "Paint the Town Red White & Blue," one with the metrocard.citysearch.com URL and one without. I found one just randomly sitting around in my station, back (ad) side up. It didn't look like it had ever been swiped, and when I checked its balance, it came up empty.
My grandson loved the Jets/Giants cards ... was it a trading card or a MetroCard, he didn't care.
I enjoyed the challenge of collecting all the Continental cards, from April 98 a new card or two every few months.
For rt theme "Jazz in Motion" was very nice.
Considering the abuses of the "Ad cards" by TA personnel (and others) which IMHO prompted the reduction of the program I doubt we will see a resurgence of these cards in the immediate future.
While MetroCard collecting is not dead, it is certainly on life support.
The Washington Metro has done that for years----I'd assume it would be a GREAT revenue stream.
For those of you in favor of a commuter tax, you better not work in NJ.
Mayor Michael Bloomberg's proposal to close a multi-billion dollar budget gap by taxing commuters is drawing threats from New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey.
"You don't start engaging in territorial tax warfare because, then, people are going to respond in kind," the governor told the New York Daily News.
McGreevey is considering slapping taxes on New York City residents who work in the Garden State. He is also thinking about suing to block any new tax, or using his power over the Port Authority to hold up projects Bloomberg wants.
The mayor's communications director told McGreevey he "should be ashamed" of using Lower Manhattan "as a bargaining chip," the Daily News said.
Nassau County's executive is vowing to lobby aggressively to derail the Mayor's plan to impose the income tax on commuters.
If it goes into effect, the tax could bring in one billion dollars in the next fiscal year.
-From NY1
To me it seems Bloomberg's tax plans has finnaly caught up to him.
McGreevey is considering slapping taxes on New York City residents who work in the Garden State.
New Yorkers who work in NJ already pay non-resident income taxes, and I'd be surprised if NJ could win a court case over a new income tax that applied only to NYC residents.
"New Yorkers who work in NJ already pay non-resident income taxes, and I'd be surprised if NJ could win a court case over a new income tax that applied only to NYC residents."
They couldn't. There was a commuter tax in the 70s and 80s that was higher than the resident income tax, and it was declared unconstitutional. Similarly, NYC tried to keep the non-resident income tax only on CT and NJ residents but not on non-NYC NY residents, and that was thrown out too.
the original tax should never have been repealed, it's part of why we're in this mess now.
American Pig
Did you happen to catch the Richard Bey Show this morning? He jestfully suggested changing the name of New York City to New Pork City, the other white meat, and sang Sinatra's "New York, New York" as "New Pork, New Pork"
I've noticed that the Straphangers.org board and other transit related boards don't have the 'Constant Warfare Syndrome' problem that this one has. I mean that Many theads here disintigrate from Transit related messages to attacks of opinion to personal attacks and name calling. Just WHY is this so? We can't blame the moderators because the mods on Rider Diaries are rarely if ever around and there has yet to be a flame war there. They in fact mock us ( calling us subsqualkers) because of our constant bickering. Nor can we blame Off- Topic threads for our problems. Riders Platform carries on peaceful duscussionon topics such as gun control, politics, and other pointless discussion. For crying out loud, BusTalk has yet to have a flame war of name calling.
Now Subtalk, why can't WE be under control without constant supervision, and learn to RESPECT each other and our various opinions?
Why? Because we're too stubborn and uncompromising. Cooler heads will prevail, but that isn't always the case here.
-Stef
I've noticed that the Straphangers.org board and other transit related boards don't have the 'Constant Warfare Syndrome' problem that this one has.
Perhaps it's because people don't let unimportant issues die (for an example, why are we still discussing THIS?).
Seriously, everyone just needs to not let their emotions get the best of them. Realize that this is just the internet, and the names you call the other guy will have no relevance in real life (unless you track him down and start a fight, which I don't recommend). Can we get back to discussing real subway and railroad issues before David Pirmann gets irritated (and rightfully so) and shuts this place down again?
Perhaps their threads don't deal with political issues or ridiculing/denigrating a political party? It seems that the threads that get most out of control here involve politics.
Perhaps every third thread isn't about taking pictures and going to jail?
Perhaps every fourth thread doesn't ridicule transit workers?
Perhaps the average age of their contributors is older than 15?
Perhaps they post subject lines with less than fourteen exclamation points?!!!!!!!!!!! *BG*
"Perhaps every third thread isn't about taking pictures and going to jail?"
If this is going on we need to know about this because many of us are
photographers and we need to use this board to keep in touch with each
other so we can compare share and exchange ideas and keep on top of
this on topic thread !
so if it offends just YOU ...etc.. sorry just do not respond !!
it is not directed at anyone except maybe railfan photographers !!
........................!
"If this is going on we need to know about this because many of us are photographers..........."
Yes, many of us are photographers while still others just like to take pictures. Fortunately, the vast majority of us also understand that we need to obey rules and laws so as not to give the rail-fan a bad reputation.
Now, now, Dude...let's not confuse the issue with facts....*g*
if i take still shots without a flash stay out of the way i do not see any problem .................
a rather unfortunate post by you ... ( oh well ) ........( sigh ) ....
Salaam, what was unfortunate about my post? I stated that most railfans are law abiding but the ones who disobey laws give railfanning a bad name. Exactly where do you disagree with me, Salaam?
then you are not saying we railfanners and train photographers should not be bannd .....
that feels a lot better ......
then you are not saying we railfanners and train photographers should not be banned .....
that feels a lot better ......
Perhaps the average age of their contributors is older than 15?
This would have absolutely no effect on the quality of the board.
In fact, if people are more learned, they are more likely to disagree and call one another fools.
I have completely avoided all the nonsense threads that have been going on here, because I really feel it's a waste of time to even get involved in that. But, I will add just this one post to the discussion, because it does not involve any particular SubTalkers, and is general.
In my opinion, I think the reason the "wars" get of control here and not on some of the other boards (I don't visit Rider Diaries, but occasionally have ventured in there) is the design of the boards. Part of what makes SubTalk so great is it's design, and the way you can individually respond to someone's post. But that comes with a price. In The Other Side of the Tracks (which I do visit) and RIder Diaries the threads are presented all in order with the first message posted followed by the next, etc, etc. It is much harder to get involved in a flame war there because you can't really respond directly to someone's post, it's more of a group discussion. When someone for some reason has the need to "attack" someone there, the message could be 10-20 messages down from the message they were even responding to, and the moment lost. It's like throwing wood on a fire from 30 feet away as opposed to throwing it right on top of the fire.
Personally, I prefer the format of SubTalk better because it is much nicer when you can respond directly to someone's question no matter how many people already responded to it. I think most people do, that's why SubTalk is so popular. It gives you a method for "one-on-one" discussion, which you can't achieve on the other format boards. Unfortunately the one drawback of the "one-on-one" capabilites is that it also allows for direct attacks.
Well, that's my opinion on this, and probably won't waste any more time discussing the nonsense of threads that have been going on, as I rarely get involved in them.
The reason is simple and two-fold. First, choo-choos are not the most important thing in the world. Lets face it - we can only discuss the cosmetic differences between an R-32 phase I and R-32 phase II just so many times before we start to say, "Oh shit, not again".
Second, you can't discuss trains (as an adult subject) without discussing federal regulation, governmental and political implications of elections, demographics vs ridership and yes, even terrorism.
Of course, while everyone will periodically begin to chant the mantra,
"We must only talk about trains, We must only talk about trains, We must only talk about trains, We must only talk about trains, We must only talk about trains, We must only talk about trains, We must only talk about trains."
we've often alowed ourselves to be sidetracked by inane drivel about greyhound busses, wooden skeeballs, oldtime radio and Amos & Andy. Those discussions attract little attention and generate little momentum on Subtalk.
I don't visit other such sites save for one but from what I understand, this type of veering "off course" is common to all boards & so are the conflicts on them. People are what they are regardless of the topic. Some are confrontational while others embrace the Rodney King theory of life, "Can't we all just get along?" while still others will blow like tumbleweed - whichever way the wind blows.
There are some who struggle to be acknowledged as a 'leader' of a board, there are some who are annointed. There are some who love to stir the shit and duck for cover and others who simply love to sling it. It appears that this is what adult discussion has become in the annonymous world of internet boards. The proof is that once some subtalkers have met, it has become more difficult for those people to become combatants on line.
I offer you no advice - only my observations. This seems to be the program. So get with it - I doubt that you can change it - human nature being what it is.
TD, I couldn't agree with you more on this. On the Trainorders discussion board awhile back someone posted something of important general interest about the war on terrorism and a self appointed FOAMER/LOSER/NETCOP replied that railroading is the "one and only thing" that should be discussed on Trainorders., The same loser frequently gripes about the railroads not giving railfans free run of the property. Boy, I bet his love life is something special. what a L*O*S*E*R.
"Just WHY is this so?"
Because different people have different ways to disagree. Suppose someone says something factually untrue. I could respond "you're ignorant" or "no, it's like this, and here's why", or just ignore it. Some people prefer the first approach, and then things escalate.
Similarly, if I think someone did something really dumb, I can say "you're immature", or "that was a bad thing to do and here's why", or ignore it. Again, some people prefer the first approach and then the flames burn bright.
David Pirman says no ad hominem attacks, and I believe saying "you're ignorant" or "you're immature" is one, no matter how justified you may be. But others don't seem to care.
>>"I've noticed that the Straphangers.org board and other transit related boards don't have the 'Constant Warfare Syndrome' problem that this one has. I mean that Many theads here disintigrate from Transit related messages to attacks of opinion to personal attacks and name calling. Just WHY is this so? We can't blame the moderators because the mods on Rider Diaries are rarely if ever around and there has yet to be a flame war there. They in fact mock us ( calling us subsqualkers) because of our constant bickering. Nor can we blame Off- Topic threads for our problems. Riders Platform carries on peaceful duscussionon topics such as gun control, politics, and other pointless discussion. For crying out loud, BusTalk has yet to have a flame war of name calling.
Now Subtalk, why can't WE be under control without constant supervision, and learn to RESPECT each other and our various opinions?"<<
WELL SAID, Flyerlover. I have respect for other transit b/c like us, they are transit fans. The "crappies" call us "subsqualkers" b/c (a) some of us don't know how to ourselves, (b) some people here are immature, (c) people take criticism to the heart, (d) some of us tend to say ignorant remarks for no reason, (e) some of us get way too emotional over nothing and I could go on and on. I have visited the RiderDiaries and they ain't perfect themselves. Example: they constantly rant about a particular poster[who shall remain nameless for privacy reasons] who doesn't know how to spell & speak but yet STILL respond to him/her anyway.
Here at bustalk/subtalk, we tend to post ridiculous topics/posts
Example: recently on bustalk, someone started a topic on Pepsi Blue I was like WTF is this shit, it had nothing to do with transit [if you want to post shit like that, go to the [crappies]strappies board's riders platform!]. I do not respond to trash & normally, I do not respond to non-transit topics but this caught my eye. No, I doubt you could completely eliminate non-transit issues her but we could VERY WELL reduce that if we make a effort to do so. Its "OK" to post non-transit issues but it gets out of hand here so I don't even bother with stuff like that. We must stop saying ignorant things about each other and get along and NOT let other boards make fun of us.
WHO'S WITH ME?!
Comments. Criticism. compliments. Holla back. All opinions welcome.
why? Mostly because,some folks have one point of view,and stick to it,and if someone say ''that not true,here are the real facts''or something of the sort,somebodies feelings get hurt[yes..I SAID IT.. EGO'S GET HURT]and a flame tussle[not war]starts.What this board lacks,is respect for others line of thinking....Agree to disagree is the word for the day.....
>>> BusTalk has yet to have a flame war of name calling. <<<
You haven't been posting to Bus Talk very long, have you?
Tom
Hello. Last week when I was riding the uptown F Train, I noticed that the switches between the uptown local and express tracks just past the Broadway-Lafayette Street Station have been removed! Why did they remove them? Won't this make it impossible for trains coming from the Manhattan Bridge (when it opens) to be rerouted to the Eighth Avenue Line?
- Lyle Goldman
Perhaps the TA is using this opportunity to refurbish that junction (new switches, trackbed etc).
Several quick questions:
1) Any report of MDBF of the fleet, or is it still too soon to tell.
2) Has there been any negative feedback from the T/O's with regard to the controller in the cabs.
I have complained. I am a leftie and it is VERY uncomfortable to operate. That said it is a great train and most people are glad to get that instead of a 42.
Wannabe1. i feel your pain about it being uncomfortable for lefties. i am no train operator, or ta worker, BUT, i still feel your pain because i am a leftie also. there is next to nothing in this damn world that will accomodate a leftie. so i have to adapt. we all do. why i am i posting this when you already know this stuff? why the hell am i asking questions? i need to stop.
I am not that upset about that. The thought of 1000+ 160's designed for righties is scary.
Understanble, but you have to remember that the majority of the people living in the world are right-handed. I remember reading that 11% of people today are left-handed. Not much at all.
Well on the 142 they did manage to put it toward the middle and ditto the 44 when it still had that controller.
Since it would appear that the old-fashioned "two fisted operation" stands are history, and the "joystick on the window" certainly strikes me as not just a safety issue for southpaws, but a potential liability for carpal-tunnel syndrome (while I *love* the 143's for their smoothness, my own try-out of the window-mounted joystick left me less than pleased), perhaps a whole new approach might be appropriate for the 160 order, whenever that happens.
Why not go forward into the past with FOOT PEDALS like the old PCC's? Gas, brake, like driving a bus? (without the steering wheel of course) While I'd be most comfortable with controller and brake handle, there's perhaps a locical ergonomics to the next generation of subway cars having foot pedals. Might not be such an insane idea actually.
Unca Selkirk promises to put down the quackpipe, but why not? :)
A deadman pedal might no be to comfy either.
Maybe a chin rest ... if yz doze off or fall over, chow. :)
I"d take a big pay cut if they would use a fluffer.
I would have thought they'd already fitted T/O's with a broom so's they could sweep the platform as they walk by. Amazing. :)
I don't understand how they managed to put a "console" in the R142/R142A and not in the R143. The R143 does have a second screen but the bottons there on the R142/R142A were moved farther to the left side.
You and me both
And what does that have to do with anything? Since the R143 and R142 are amde by 2 different companies, well, there ya go.
I guess the leftie japs all kill themselves in shame, in this country they go on workmens comp. A product where 11% of users might have a problem is not a good design. Cars where there are many more styles and makers are designed to at least the 97th percentile for basic ergonomics.
Quite true. Here's a thought. Try emailing Kawasaki about this and see what result you get.
My bet is that they'll respond "we built to the specifications we received from the MTA" ... when building to a government contract, you don't make decisions on your own without inviting a study group. :)
Besides that ship sailed already.
Yep ... I wait with anticipation as to what's going to be in the cab when we see those 160's ... maybe the captain's chair in Star Trek? Number 1, make it so ... engage. :)
Maybe a potty to eliminate comfort breaks.
Ever wonder why Kirk or Picard never had to leave the cab when the Klingons attacked? Yup, built RIGHT into da chair! No more soda bottles or unauthorized filling of the wiper bottle. :)
As a frenchie Picard used a bidet to get rid of the Klingons of Uranus.
If the specs didn't go out to bid yet for the 160's, I'd write that up. Dunno if you ever had the pleasure of the old crusty dropdown benches in the arnines and older, but cabs these days are cushy enough that I'd worry about nodding off. But if you want a water fountain, I'm sure it could be done. :)
The 143 has a utility plug. If it is not hooked up to the event recorder too a mini fridge would be quite nice.
And a Mickeywave to reheat that mystery pizza or Meow Foo Yung. One of the thrills this retiree enjoys is having a wet bar just down the hall from my BVE simulator. So while I'm holding for a gap at Roosevelt, I can go down, draw a beer and wait for indication while chilling my jets. Heh.
Yeah, I enjoyed that "coat hook" on the offside bulkhead. Had to SIT on our coats years ago. And a SUN VISOR? Wowsers ... yeah, maybe if they can move that stuff out of the contactor panel, a fridge might fit in there, right next to the outlet. :)
My dentist is a lefty, too. Last week we were discussing that exact topic. Most people don't realize it but the standard dentist chair is set up for right-handed dentists. He showed me how, by stepping on a pedal, the whole unit could be set up for a left-handed dentist. I then told him about the R-143. He, too, felt that it was absurd to make a nearly $2 million piece of equipment that left-handers can't operate properly.
In all honesty, this is a mater that should be looked at by the TWU safety committee. - That is if they are not too busy with more important things.
I think the idea was that they just assumed it would be for ATO and i have no problems in the yard. When I get the five tripper of all 143's i will be a wreck.
I believe all the RTO officers are righties.
CBTC and ATO are not one in the same. CBTC will still require the operator to operate.
In 143 school car we were told that the 143 will run without an operator in about 5 years.
CBTC is a signal system. In the documentation that I have, it's clear that the train will still require an operator. R-42s with CBTC require an operator. I believe that the personnel in School Car have some mis-information.
Ultimately, the operator will be there just to watch that it's running properly, and take over if it fails. (The console has an "ATO Start" button showing it will be both CBTC and ATO). The point was they figured the handle wouldn't be as necessary, and most of the time, it wouldn't.
Just like a deadman/EBV on the AirTrain during test runs.
I don't want to become a rumor monger here, all I've heard for the foreseeable future is that there will always be someone in the cab. But I can DEFINITELY see where someone would get the impression that the carbon-based lifeform would be banished from the cab eventually. Nothing says it like the "afterthought" appearance of how that controller was mounted. A few screws and out it comes, readily replaced by a blank panel. I can see where the concern would come from based on that useless bit of speculation and odd design of the controller T bar.
I can't imagine that being bargained away in our lifetime though, whether it's possible or not. It'd require full ATS/ATO before that panel could come out.
FYI: WMATA consoles have had the power handle on the right since the first cars came in 1976.
From what I can see, there are two ways to have a local/express ROW. Which do you think is more effective?
1) When a group of lines meet {say the A and C at Euclid}, one line runs express for the entire meeting length {the A until Hoyt} and the other line runs local for the entire meeting length. {Similar case with the Q local and Q express.}
ADVANTAGES: Little if any concerns about switching tracks, fewer delays.
DISADVANTAGES: Just for the sake of the argument, saying Nostrand was not two levels but a typical four track express station, if a Manhattan-bound A and C arrive at the same time, all of the C passengers will go for the A, thereby, the C goes into Manhattan empty, and the A goes in packed. {Remember, the A will be the first to pick up people from the F and G lines at Hoyt and Jay since it is the first train through.} Question: If this is resolved by scheduling, where do most schedules have the trains meet?
2) The Queens Blvd line system: Full length express {the E}, a local to a point then express {the F}, and then short-turned locals {the R and V,} AS OPPOSED TO the E and F being full length expresses and the R and V being full length locals {which could both turn at 179 with the ample relay space, rather than Forest Hills which seems to become a bottleneck if any extra service {the G} were put in.
ADVANTAGES: Stations that are far from Manhattan but considered local stations still get express service {75th Ave in the F line}, better distribution of passengers, except it kind of defeats the purpose to have the E stop at Roosevelt since it picks up extra load from the local stops Forest Hills to Roosevelt, and then has to pick up transferring passengers from the 7
DISADVANTAGES: Merges and possible delays going into Forest Hills.
The other system is the skip-stop system, which seems to work where it is used.
What is your preference and why?
"The Queens Blvd line system: Full length express {the E}, a local to a point then express {the F}, and then short-turned locals {the R and V,} AS OPPOSED TO the E and F being full length expresses and the R and V being full length locals"
The E only skips one stop that the F serves (75th Ave). So really the QB system now is virtually the same as the Fulton Line system.
The old QB system where the E and F ran express from Hillside to Continental (with an R and/or G local) got dropped because the passengers at the skipped stations complained too much.
The E also skips Briarwood also weekdays plus you have the special E's that run express vai Hillside to 179 now.
plus you have the special E's that run express vai Hillside to 179 now.
I knew a few of the E's ran to 179th, but I didn't realize they ran there express. Do they do that in both directions?
I doubt if those E trains atart at 179 St. Chances are those E trains come out of the yard and are put into service at 71 Ave.
I believe there are some E's that do go to 179th. It was talked about here once. They are not "official" in that they are not listed on the map. I am not sure if they run express though to 179th. According to the original poster, they may.
They are on teh service guide at the bottom of the map but they are not depicted on the map itself. There are 5 in the morning and 5 in the evening. From what I know, they run express at least in the mornings. They had signs last January saying their departure times from 179th Street and that they arrived at Parsons Blvd. 3 minutes later. I got one in the evening once (I was going from Penn to Lex). The train's signs were pretty messed up, the first 4 cars were Es from Canal to 179th, the next 4 cars were Fs from Canal to 179th, and last 2 cars were Es from Canal to Parsons/Archer. The conductor was announcing "This an E train making F stops" or something to that effect once we got to Lex, I think he made some general announcementson 8th Avenue alerting people that they were going to 179th, not Parsons/Archer. There were some confused people at Lex, but most seemed to be in the know or were not and would be in for a surprise when they didn't get to Jamacia.
Queens Blvd does not run full length expresses. They used to operate 660 foot expresses. Current operation is limited to 600 foot trains.
The problems with turning trains at Forest Hills are due to recent TA operation rules changes. The facilities were designed to turn 40 tph without delays. Current operation is about half that with considerable delays.
WOW! 40 tph!? Thats insane, how would that be done?
Take a look at the yard lead layout. The tracks leading to/from Continental separate into two tracks. The inner ones have a crossover and terminate in a block. The outer ones go to the yard. There is another crossover before entering the yard.
The capacity for each crossover is limited by the time a train spends in the crossover. So, if it takes less than 3 minutes for a train to clear a crossover, then that crossover can handle at least 20 tph. There are two such crossovers, so the capacity at Continental is excess 40 tph.
The Fulton Line was supposed to work the same way as the Queensboro line, but it never did so.
The IND theory was that outland locals never went to Manhattan, and so ALL local rideres were *supposed* to switch to an express at their first convenience.
MY theory is that all outland trains local or express become express when they cross into Manhattan, and that Manhattan locals remain in Manhattan, of course this predicates some sort of a big southern termianl at South Ferry, or perhaps loops to circulate the locals, but this we do not have...
I have a plan... I call it the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway: there are several distal routes that merge at Jamaica Center and then run non-stop to Brooklyn Center, Wall Street, and World Trade Center. There is a local that collects passengers along the Myrtle Line from Jamaica Center to Brooklyn Center.
The Express trains have a TEN MILE run at 75 mph between Jamaica Center and Brooklyn Center. THAT is what *my* Express Trains would look like!
Elias
I don't think the board understands what I'm trying to say. I'm asking, which system works best in a typical case {a separate line}? When I said full-length on the QB line I did not mean the length of the trains, I meant the length of the run {Full length=the entire ROW}. I'm not asking which is a better line, the A/C or the E/F/R/V, I'm asking in a typical case which system should be used? For example, on the Brighton line, which would be a better system:
1) the one in place now, Q local, Q express, no crossing over between Brighton Beach and Prospect Park or:
2) Have something like #1 except cut the amount of service on both the local and express and give those extra TPH to a line that would stop at Neck Rd and Avenue U before running express north of Kings Highway {on the condition this change in TPH won't affect other lines.}
It is better to pull some trains out before the final terminal and turn them about. For the few people that need to get to the very end of the line, they can wait for the next interval. The carset should be turned back to the city because it is needed there.
Outterlimts, Queens only needs a train every 10 minutes...
Jamaica needs a train every five minutes.
Roosevelt Avenue needs trains every two minutes.
Elias
Ok, I get what you're saying. Here's what I think:
Your example on the Q #1. I believe once a line runs express in a trunk line, it should stay express and once local, should stay local but there are special cases currently[ex: N express in Bklyn, local in Manhattan & Queens].
I'll do the IRT:
1/9: One of the lines (preferrably 9) should be a peak express but lack of island platforms limit that, the skip stop doesn't make sense to me it saves only what 2 MINUTES tops[I believe skip-stop works o the J/Z though but not enough service].
2,5: (a)Should be skip stop btw Franklin and Flatbush Av
(b) Peak express(5) should continue to at least Gun Hill Rd
3: Fine
4: Fine
6: Fine
7: Fine but end express service to Main around 9 or 9:30pm
1/9: One of the lines (preferrably 9) should be a peak express but lack of island platforms limit that, the skip stop doesn't make sense to me it saves only what 2 MINUTES tops[I believe skip-stop works o the J/Z though but not enough service].
9 trains should run rush hours only to 137th st. 1 trains should run express peak direction from 137th to 96th. That makes more sense than the present skip-stop configuration.
2,5: (a)Should be skip stop btw Franklin and Flatbush Av
I doubt the time saved would be worth it, and passengers at a (2) station would loose their direct connection to the express.
The 2/5 wouldn't work. It reduces flexibility and increases the number of transfers at Franklin Avenue.
The 5 express on WPR probably would not work due to low ridership. It would be similar to the W express in Astoria.
The 9 should be eliminated. All trains should be designated 1 and go to 242nd Street with short turns at 137th. The stops south of 137th get enough ridership so that the peak express would be useless not to mention the trains would have to cross over in front of each other at 137th.
In amost all cases the best system is to have a train run local in the outer boondocks to collect people, then run express, with a local train starting closer in.
My point about QB is that this is pretty much what happens at QB, a few stops skipped by a few Es notwithstanding. This is also what happens with the A and C, on the 6, etc. It's not what happens with the Brighton Line, and that's not as good. If the tracks allowed, it would be better for the Coney Island train (when it exists) to be the express.
Skip stop only works if you have a REALLY long line like the J, and no express track. It's useless on the 1/9 and would be useless if tried on the L. The reduction in service isn't justified by the few minutes gained.
To add to your skip-stop criteria: skip-stop only works if the line is heavily used at the far end while intermediate stations have relatively light traffic. That is the case on the J/Z; it isn't on the 1/9 or the L.
It's not what happens with the Brighton Line, and that's not as good. If the tracks allowed, it would be better for the Coney Island train (when it exists) to be the express.
After brighton beach, you only have 3 more stops. The REALLY bad one is the brooklyn IRT. The expresses terminate at Utica, and the locals have a lot of stops left to make...
Having a few #5's that run express is good for that line. They really should find a way to terminate the locals there.
I believe it's most efficient to cluster local stops and then haul them in express. The commuter railroads do this. For example, after the IRT 2 gets past 145th it should go express. Ideally, the 2 would only go as far as 180th, and then the 5 would pick up the remaining locals. The 5 would be superexpress ALL THE WAY from 180th.
In addition, the superexpresses would do the work of picking up downtown local stops. 5, instead of 6, would get the local stops between Grand Central and Fulton. That way, the suburban riders would mostly have a one-stop ride unless they needed a specific downtown local stop.
I don't follow. In the Bronx, some people need the 2 and others need the 5. By cutting the 2 short, you're increasing headways and forcing transfers on a lot of people. Also, remember that the 2 is the only full-time upper WPR service.
If you have locals become expresses and expresses become locals, you force passengers traveling short distances between local stops to transfer. Why do you find that desireable? A lot of people use local stations.
The commuter railroads serve a different purpose: they gather up people from the suburbs and deposit nearly all of them at a small handful of stations in the city.
As NewFlyer said, this is only for purposes of illustration. 2/5 is a bad example in the sense that they go to two different destinations downtown. However, the local collection turning to express (which Jersey Mike also illustrates with the LIRR) works well with the MNR. Locals outside Stamford go express to Grand Central. Locals inside Stamford go local to Mt.Vernon, then express. If I wanted to go local from outside to inside Stamford, I would switch at Stamford (but this is an unusual traffic situation).
Similarly, I see few people going from Gun Hill Road to Jackson Ave (on either side of 180th St.) They either get off at 180th St. or go to Manhattan. Again, this is only an example. But where there is a very long line, since most switch to an express already, why not leave them on board and make a few switch to another local?
I there there is something to be said for the LIRR/Chicago EL style of express service, although it is sort of limited to certain types of system layouts. Basically you have a farthest terminal. The trains runs local toward the "city center" until it reaches an intermediate terminal or some junction w/ a branch line. Trains from this branch line or terminal then take over local service and the other trains start to run express. As more and more branch lines join they take over the local duties allowing all the other trains to run express.
Are SB 4/5/6 trains dumping their passengers onto the SB platform at Brooklyn Bridge, or are they running with passengers through the loop so those continuing further south have a cross-platform transfer?
When I was down there yesterday, S/B trains were dumping all passengers on the S/B platform, and all service further downtown was from the N/B express track. Fortunately, platform conductors were out in force; things seemed to be operating fairly well.
I think David's idea would have been better, and made a lot more sense. Actually, I would have taken it one step further, and not even stopped at the southbound platform at Brooklyn Bridge at all. Just send the train through from Canal Street, bypassing BB completely, around the loop and then finally stopping only at the Northbound platform at BB. Of course conductors would have had to announce why they were originally by-passing BB, and no need to worry that the train would indeed be stopping at BB, just at the other side (your average rider wouldn't understand that there is even a loop there).
They have done this before, I remember riding during a similar GO some time ago when the downtown trains went right past the downtown platform, around the loop, and let us off on the uptown side, so that it was an easy cross-platform transfer to the Brooklyn-bound train.
Some passengers panicked when we passed the downtown platform without stopping though. =)
Some passengers panicked when we passed the downtown platform without stopping though. =)
LOL, yeah, when they do things like that, good announcements are necessity. It would make life easier though for the passengers if they did skip the southbound BB platform.
By Don Phillips
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 15, 2002; Page A01
On a balmy Sunday afternoon late last month, Richard Whitenight did
what he often does on his days off: He went to a busy railroad
junction in Fort Worth to watch the trains roll by.
But as he sat making notes about passing freight trains, two police
cruisers approached. Over the next five hours, Whitenight -- who
works for the police department in nearby Arlington, Tex. --
identified himself to the officers. Then he identified himself to the
officers' supervisor, then a detective from a terrorism task force,
then the FBI. They seized his trainspotter's notebook and grilled him
about every mark and note in it. They searched his car and took
photos of it, inside and out. Finally, he had to sign a form agreeing
never to return to the location known as Tower 55.
Whitenight is one of thousands, perhaps millions, of people around
the world who spend much of their time observing and photographing
railroad operations out of a love for trains. In general, railroads
have encouraged these "railfans" as long as they do not trespass or
interfere with operations. Railroads even hold contests to use
railfan photographs in calendars, and the Association of American
Railroads has started a Web site to encourage the hobby.
But after the FBI announced last month it had credible reports that
al Qaeda might be targeting railroads, a growing minority of railfans
have been questioned and sometimes searched. A handful have even been
threatened with arrest, for pursuing a hobby they have embraced for
years.
Law enforcement officers and train crews have been told to be on the
lookout for suspicious characters asking detailed questions about
railroad operations, taking notes and taking pictures of trains. It
appears the descriptions of "terrorist" and "railfan" are the same.
"It's an unfortunate coincidence," said Edward Hamburger, president
of the Association of American Railroads. But he said railroads may
be a terrorist target, and "we want them to know we're not a soft
target. People have to recognize they will be approached, they will
be questioned, they will be asked to move on."
"Railfanning, by its very nature, is suspicious," said John Bromley,
longtime head of public relations for Union Pacific, the nation's
largest railroad. "It involves loitering, taking pictures and taking
notes."
Some railfans are railroaders themselves, some museum curators,
professors and others with a link to railroading. Others come from
all walks of life. Some become minutely specialized, such as one
group that follows the movements of a single type of diesel
locomotive.
But most are like Whitenight, 54, a Vietnam-era Navy veteran who
simply loves to watch trains. In fact, until the FBI warning, dozens
of railfans would regularly gather at Tower 55, an old switching and
signal tower where main lines of the Union Pacific and the Burlington
Northern Santa Fe converge near downtown Fort Worth.
A lot of the train crews came to know the group, and often waved and
smiled. "Some of the guys recognize us," Whitenight said. "They see
us all the time. But now they've been told to report us."
Even though "train crews sort of know a railfan when they see one,"
as Bromley put it, Union Pacific has ordered them to report all
activity that might be remotely suspicious. That includes people
taking pictures of trains, even if they are doing so legally and are
not trespassing on railroad property.
Railroad police or local police departments are then dispatched to
check out the situation. Reports of suspicious activity are "up
significantly" in the last few weeks, Bromley said.
"We certainly aren't out to destroy an American tradition of watching
trains, but we have to be careful," Bromley said.
Norfolk Southern has taken similar steps, although Robert Fort,
communications vice president, said railfans won't be subject to
arrest unless they are trespassing. Even then police will generally
just escort railfans off railroad property, he said. "Tact and
diplomacy are the order of the day," Fort said.
Spokesmen for Burlington Northern Santa Fe, Amtrak and CSX
Transportation say they are not specifically targeting photographers
but have asked crews to report suspicious activity.
Normally, police who encounter railfans simply check identities and
record names and other basic information. But a few encounters go
beyond that. Internet chat groups have been filled with stories of
conflicts with police and railroad employees, including one Union
Pacific conductor who ran up a bank to a public street to shout at a
railfan to stop taking pictures of his train.
Jim Satterwhite of Greenville, Tex., president of Coastline Rail
Services, was out photographing trains last weekend when his wife had
a visit from police. It seems a Kansas City Southern Railway
locomotive crew had reported his tag number. Shortly after the police
visit, his wife received a call from a railroad official.
Satterwhite said in an interview that as a 20-year Air Force veteran
who now works in the railroad industry, he understands the need for
safety and security. But "when do we become prisoners in our own
homes?" he asked.
Even before the FBI announcement, railfans said they had noticed an
increasing police presence.
Joseph Suarez, 17, of Carson, Calif., said he and a friend were
ordered out of their parked car a few weeks back while waiting for a
train and patted down by a Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy, who
had trouble comprehending why their back seat was full of cameras,
notebooks and train magazines. After his friend showed the deputy a
business card advertising train photographs for sale, "that seemed to
satisfy him a little bit." Finally, the deputy walked away,
saying, "I don't have a problem with you being here." Nonetheless,
Suarez said, they left the area and don't intend to go back for a
while.
Railfans aren't the only suspicious-looking characters who are merely
hobbyists. Planespotters scour the world's airports to record and
photograph airplanes. Greek authorities recently arrested several
British and Dutch planespotters and charged them with espionage. They
were released last week by a judge, who said it was clear they were
merely following a hobby. One big difference between planespotters
and trainspotters is that it is much easier to get close to the
hundreds of thousands of miles of railroads, while most airports are
fenced off and guarded.
Even as police and the railroads view railfans with suspicion,
Federal Railroad Administrator Alan Rutter says the railfan network
could be "a real value" in spotting truly suspicious activity. Rutter
said the government is already taking advantage of the intelligence-
gathering abilities of railfans. In addition to perusing Web sites, a
FRA spokesman said, the agency's field staff has begun asking people
it knows to be legitimate railfans to report suspicious activity.
The railfan intelligence-gathering capability is formidable. There
are numerous Internet chat groups that keep up with almost everything
unusual that moves on the railroad, from the Ringling Bros. and
Barnum & Bailey Circus train to trains carrying nuclear casks to
storage sites.
Those chat sites have been filled for weeks with advice on what to do
about the growing police attention. That advice includes a caution
that the railroads also stress: Don't trespass on railroad property.
Many of the postings take a patriotic tone;. many others express
anger. But the advice also includes ways to look unthreatening, by
wearing a shirt with a locomotive on it, for instance, or carrying
railfan magazines to show police officers who never heard of the
hobby.
"As crazy as it sounds, you need to educate the cop about our strange
hobby in under 60 seconds," wrote Todd Clark, the webmaster of
Trainorders.com.
Clark said in an interview that, for the most part, railroad police
are familiar with the hobby but local police "think it's bizarre that
grown men would be out there taking pictures of trains."
Rutter suggested that railfans be "mellow" when approached by police.
He said Whitenight was a good example of how to act: Cooperate, keep
cool, and understand that "everything passes in time."
At the same time, he said the FRA now understands that it must help
law enforcement agencies understand railfans.
"We'll try to do what we can to let people know that railfans are out
there," Rutter said.
Most railfans take notes of some kind, often in a language all their
own. "That ALBMDX-22 was 55 loads of mixed Toyotas and Nissans for
the Midlothian unloading facility'' is one of the more jargon-free
examples.
Whitenight said the police in his case "didn't even recognize our
terminology."
"If even one of them had known what we were talking about," he
said, "we could have cleared this up fast."
Clark said the Federal Railroad Administration obviously is watching
his Web site, because an official contacted him in May expressing
concern about a person who asked about the location of certain
bridges and wrote in broken English. That person turned out to be a
legitimate Swiss railfan.
The FRA also asked Clark to issue a caution on the Web site about
being too specific about the location of bridges and tunnels. Most of
his subscribers complied immediately, he said.
Some railfans are advising their brothers to remain undercover as
much as possible, not looking like railfans, keeping the car out of
sight, taking one photo and moving to another location. This is
becoming known as "guerrilla railfanning."
"You mean like Poland in the 1960s?" said Nils Huxtable, a Canadian
railfan who has traveled the world for decades taking pictures of
steam locomotives, writing books and producing train calendars. In
Eastern Europe years ago, he dodged the secret police to take
forbidden railroad pictures.
Huxtable said he has started to avoid the United States for railfan
activities. "It's just not enjoyable being in that atmosphere," he
said.
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
So sad. Just by skimming through this, it shows how hasty and ridiculous out government can be sometimes.
This is why we post on this subject of TAKE A PHOTO OF A TRAIN GO 2 JAIL / PRISON ............??........!!
As some of you Sub-Talkers already know Thurston was elected yesterday as a three year trustee of the Shoreline Trolley Museum along with Bill Wall and Rob Parente.
This means that there are at least three pro rapid transit trustees (Thurston, Bill and Jeff H.) on the board, with some new ideas on how to operate the museum with any eye toward increasing membership and attendance.
You are quite right, Al. And a special thank you to Lou (aka Lou from Brooklyn) Levinson for his nomination of Thurston from the floor (or was it his chair?) .
Also all of you guys that were there to support Mr. T with your votes/ballots should also receive a round of applause and chudos: Chris (aka Anon_E_Mouse), Peter (the Pole), Paul P., John S., Notchit, Mike (aka RIPTA42HopeTunnel), Jeff "Sarge" Rosen and LarryRedbirdR33.
We did good. Not even a Nor'Easter bearing down on the tri-state area was able to stop us!
Applause! Applause! Woo hoo! I'm right behind the big man, who I'm proud to call a friend. Congrats for the 1000th time, Mr.T.
Regards,
Mr. R-17
Thurston, what can I say----You're an animal.
Congratulations Thurston. I would have voted 3 times for you, but the rules didn't allow it :-(
Its good to have another voice on the board.
Paul
Yeah, as it was we should've had a recount just to make sure there were no hanging Chads! :)
Could you imagine some poor schlump named Chad running for office now? :)
Then the hanging Chad would be "hung".
That'd probably get Chad more votes. :)
Congradulations Thurston.
I found the meeting very interesting and stayed right to the very end of Jeff H's presentation on planning.
I hope everyone got home safely. It really was treacherous driving on I-95 back to NY. I'm sure glad I didn't go by Harley!!!
>>>"stayed right to the very end of Jeff H's presentation on planning.
I hope everyone got home safely. It really was treacherous driving on I-95 back to NY."<<<
Well, Jeff must have been exceptionally winded, cause eight of
us who left at 1645 and dines at exit 40 and back on I-95 at
1830, didn't hit nasty weather till New Rochelle. Why time did
his presentation cease?
;-) Sparky
I got on I-95 about 1830-1845 and unless I'm having one of Fred's senior moments it was pretty bad the whole way.
Well, I guess we were after the one east of exit 40 and it was
traveling EAst to West. Also those "Senior Moments" are reserved
for the few elitist, who are eligible for the "Old Farts Club",
you gotta wait your turn. Karl B, Sea Beach Fred and I are the
founding members of STOFC.
;-) Sparky
Hey Sarge, you want to avoid those senior moments, but if you are getting towards 60, sorry my friend, those moments are going to come. What's with the military time? Are you an ex-serviceman like me?
Only because Sparky was using military time and I was answering his questions.
SBF & Sarge,
The Branford Electric Railway runs under military time, when
fully qualified dispatcher are aboard. Just habit when refering
to the railway. The official railway clock in the office is
24 hour not 12.
;-) Sparky
hmm with AM or PM what is 12 am ???
is it midninght or is it midday ?
with Militairy time the doubt factor is out the door.
12am is midnight.
Not necessarily. Some years ago, I had a plane ticket (issued in the US) from France to US that showed my flight at 12 am. Only by calling the airline was I able to confirm they meant noon.
Noon should be designated as 12 n and midnight should be designated as 12 m.
Yes, the correct usage is 12 noon or 12 midnight. There is no 12 PM and there is no 12 AM. This is the convention used by the Greenwich Observatory. After all, how can noon be ante median or post median? It is the median!
Mark
Ah... but what about 12:01.
1201 is pm , 0001 is am
So the hours 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 are AM but 12 is PM
because it is post meridian eventhough it is still the 12th hour.
Elias
12:01 after 12:00 noon is indeed 12:01 PM. The noon and midnight designations are only for times that the clock reads exactly 12:00. Here is a link to a Royal Greenwich Observatory page addressing the issue.
Mark
>>> because it is post meridian eventhough it is still the 12th hour. <<<
It seems to me that the convention of 12 noon being PM became important with the increasing use of computers and other intelligent devices (particularly VCRs). Before the computer age, the question regarding whether 12 noon should be considered AM or PM probably would get a response each way of 50%, and people would know what was meant by the context in which it was used. The European 24 hour system makes more sense since there is no chance of mistaking "1200" for "2400", and it is much simpler to calculate the number of hours between two times during the day.
I found when I lived in Europe 40 years ago, most people in casual conversation would talk about 9 o'clock in the evening, but could immediately understand the 24 hour conversion since most timetables and time stamping devices like time clocks were in the 24 hour format. What was more confusing for me, even though it was logical was that in Germany "3/4 nine" meant 8:45, recognizing that the time between 8:00 and 9:00 was the ninth hour of the day.
Tom
recognizing that the time between 8:00 and 9:00 was the ninth hour of the day.
And now,, just to confuse things...
The Roman and other Ancient hours (such as are used in the Roman Prayer Books) Give "Prime" as the First hour of the day (At Dawn), "Trece" would be roughly 0900, "Sext" would be at noon, "None" would be about Three PM (1500 hours) and twelvth hour would be at dusk.
Now these hours were of course of varriable lengths depending on if you was in the summer or the winter. The Night time hours did not have any names.
Now, go schedule your trains!
Elias
Perhaps we should just have a 360 degree day. It works out to be 15 or so degrees per hour. Everthing would be relative to the your position either east or west of the Latitude line where the sun's rays were shining directly vertically down. That's all most timekeeping is, keeping track of the angular displacement between you and wherever noon and midnight are. The longitude of the vertical rays changes with the seasons (thanks to that 23 degree tilt), but so long as you allow that to slide north and south, it nicely changes with the hours. 0 degrees would be midnight, 180 degrees would be noon. Some semblance of division would be needed, perhaps minutes and seconds rather than just decimals, which would get confusing. But think of how easy it would be to work out the time zones, so long as you know the latitude of the place you need to call, or go to
It would work even better if we could adapt degrees to replace days, since earth revolves around the sun once every 365 days, and there are 360 degrees in a circle, we would end up with .986 degree days. Perhaps we should just call it 360 days to a year, and have the 5 remaining days off at the end of the year for some kind of celebration. Even better would be to correct the orbit, so that 360 days = 1 year, all that would take is one retrograde burn, followed by another posigrade burn a few months later, never mind that we would be trying to move something that weighs 5.89 E+24kg. However I don't see that as happening anytime before some comet falls sunward and we end up as some cosmic target, or whatever you prefer to think will end the human race, that just happens to be my favorite.
Just my two (smashed on the tracks) cents.
I'd rather divide the day into radians! Midnight would be 0, 6:00 AM would be p/2, noon would be p, 6:00 PM would be 3p/2, etc.
Mark
HEY, THATS ANOTHER GOOD IDEA!
Then using the formula S=R(theta), you would always know how far you were from noon, just have to remember that R is 6730km or so, and that Theta is in radians, which wouldn't be a problem, cause you're always in Radians.
You could say that something happening in 2 days would be in 4Pi days and stuff.
BTW: How did you get the Pi symbols? Can I get little Thetas?
Exactly!
To make a p, use the html command line:
To make a q, use the letter q instead of p.
Mark
Okay, let's try this again...
To make a q, use the letter q instead of p.
Mark
Yes, you just have to find a female Q and have some fun…
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
How about a METRIC day? I got the idea from the new metric (decimal or %)hours I see, both when I worked the Census, and many dispatcher's offices have %/min. conversion charts. Why not do the whole day?
1 / 1 0 = 1 4 4 : 0 0
1 / 1 0 0 = 1 4 : 2 4
1 / 1 0 0 0 = 1 : 2 6 . 4
1 / 1 0 0 0 0 = 0 0 : 0 8 ( 8 . 6 4 )
1 / 2 0 = 7 2 : 0 0
0 0 0 0...1 2 : 0 0 A...........0 0 : 0 0 0
........0 0 : 1 4 : 2 4...........1 0 0 0
........1 2 : 1 5...............0 1 : 0 4 1
........0 0 : 2 8 : 4 8...........2 0 0 0
........1 2 : 3 0...............0 2 : 0 8 3
........0 0 : 4 3 : 1 2.........3 0 0 0
........1 2 : 4 5...............0 3 : 1 2 5 ( 1 / 3 2 )
........0 0 : 5 7 : 3 6.........4 0 0 0 ( 1 / 2 5 )
........1 2 : 5 9 : 2 4.........4 : 1 2 5
........1 : 0 0.................4 : 1 6 6
........1 : 1 2 : 0 0...........5 0 0 0 ( 1 / 2 0 )
........1 : 2 6 : 2 4...........6 0 0 0
........1 : 3 0.................0 6 : 2 5 0 ( 1 / 1 6 )
........1 : 4 0 : 4 8...........7 0 0 0
........1 : 5 5 : 1 2...........8 0 0 0 ( 2 / 2 5 )
........2 : 0 0.................0 8 : 3 3 3
........2 : 0 0 : 3 6...........0 8 : 3 7 5
........2 : 0 9 : 3 6...........9 0 0 0
........2 : 1 5.................0 9 : 3 7 5
........2 : 2 4 : 0 0...........1 0 0 0 0
........2 : 5 2 : 4 8...........1 2 0 0 0 ( 3 / 2 5 )
........3 : 0 0.................1 2 : 5 0 0
........3 : 3 6 : 0 0...........1 5 0 0 0
........3 : 4 5.................1 5 : 6 2 5
........3 : 5 0 : 2 4...........1 6 0 0 0 ( 4 / 2 5 )
........3 : 5 9 : 2 4...........1 6 : 6 2 5
........4 : 0 0.................1 6 : 6 6 6
........4 : 4 8 : 0 0...........2 0 0 0 0 ( 5 / 2 5 )
........5 : 0 0.................2 0 : 8 3 3
........5 : 4 5 : 3 6...........2 4 0 0 0 ( 6 / 2 5 )
........6 : 0 0.................2 5 : 0 0 0
........6 : 4 3 : 1 2...........2 8 0 0 0 ( 7 / 2 5 )
........7 : 0 0.................2 9 : 1 6 6
........7 : 1 2.................3 0 0 0 0
........7 : 4 0 : 4 8...........3 2 0 0 0 ( 8 / 2 5 )
........8 : 0 0.................3 3 : 3 3 3
........8 : 2 4.................3 5 0 0 0
........8 : 3 8 : 2 4...........3 6 0 0 0 ( 9 / 2 5 )
........9 : 0 0.................3 7 : 5 0 0
........9 : 3 6.................4 0 0 0 0 ( 1 0 / 2 5 )
........1 0 : 0 0...............4 1 : 6 6 6
........1 0 : 3 3 : 1 2.........4 4 0 0 0 ( 1 1 / 2 5 )
........1 0 : 4 8...............4 5 0 0 0
........1 1 : 0 0...............4 5 : 8 3 3
........1 1 : 3 1 : 1 2.........4 8 0 0 0 ( 1 2 / 2 5 )
........1 2 : 0 0...............5 0 : 0 0 0
........1 2 : 2 8 : 4 8.........5 2 0 0 0 ( 1 3 / 2 5 )
1 3 0 0.........1 : 0 0 P.......5 4 : 1 6 6
1 3 1 2.........................5 5 0 0 0
................2 : 3 6 : 2 4...5 6 0 0 0 ( 1 4 / 2 5 )
1 4 0 0.........2 : 0 0 P.......5 8 : 3 3 3
1 4 2 4.........................6 0 0 0 0 ( 1 5 / 2 5 )
1 5 0 0.........3 : 0 0 P.......6 2 : 5 0 0
........1 5 : 2 1 : 3 6.........6 4 0 0 0 ( 1 6 / 2 5 )
1 5 3 6.........................6 5 0 0 0
1 6 0 0.........4 : 0 0 P.......6 6 : 6 6 6
........1 6 : 1 9 : 1 2.........6 8 0 0 0 ( 1 7 / 2 5 )
1 6 4 8.........................7 0 0 0 0
1 7 0 0.........5 : 0 0 P.......7 0 : 8 3 3
........1 7 : 1 6 : 4 8.........7 2 0 0 0 ( 1 8 / 2 5 )
1 8 0 0.........6 : 0 0 P.......7 5 : 0 0 0
........1 8 : 1 4 : 2 4.........7 6 0 0 0 ( 1 9 / 2 5 )
1 9 0 0.........7 : 0 0 P.......7 9 : 1 6 6
1 9 1 2.........................8 0 0 0 0 ( 2 0 / 2 5 )
2 0 0 0.........8 : 0 0 P.......8 3 : 3 3 3
........2 0 : 0 9 : 3 6.........8 4 0 0 0 ( 2 1 / 2 5 )
2 0 2 4.........................8 5 0 0 0
2 1 0 0.........9 : 0 0 P.......8 7 : 5 0 0
........2 1 : 0 6 : 2 4.........8 8 0 0 0 ( 2 2 / 2 5 )
2 1 3 6.........................9 0 0 0 0
2 2 0 0.......1 0 : 0 0 P.......9 1 : 6 6 6
........2 2 : 0 4 : 4 8.........9 2 0 0 0 ( 2 3 / 2 5 )
2 2 4 8.........................9 5 0 0 0
2 3 0 0.........1 1 : 0 0.......9 5 : 8 3 3
BTW; Midnight jobs hours from 2000-2359 are "B" insteaf of "P". If a PM job is assigned those hours, it is "P"
The French government will SUE YOU for this obvious copyright infringement.
Oh, yeah, after I posted this last night, I suddenly remembered reading somewhere recently about a French system using something like this (Was that here? I may have posted it somewhere before, and perhaps that was when someone mentioned it). They even had a name for the units, which I am trying to remember.
Hell, you don't have to (ahem) 'sing' "La Marseillaise" ala Le Petomaine to do the strange timing. Go work for the state ... 37.50 hours a week, and I pity da fool who turns in a time card with only 37.49 ... :)
That's just the metric hour I mentioned. (As I said, some dispatcher's offices have conversion charts. I don't know who uses that in the TA; perhaps the cleaners or whoever uses those time clocks). If you're going to change the second to 1/100th instead of 1/60, then make it 1/100000th of the day (1= .864 seconds) and have new "hours" as well (1/20 (5000 or 72:00) and 1/25 (4000 or 57:36) of a day are close)
My head's pounding at the thought. :)
Railroads aren't a 9 to 5 activity. 12 hour clocks are useless unless you want to pay the wrong crew or unload the wrong boxcar.
When I first started with the transit agency I've been working for 13 years with I had to do a couple weeks on the extra board. Policy was to call in after 1 p.m. to get next days report time.
One day I was told to report at 3:56. Dispatcher in a rush, never said AM or PM....just "3:56 for a Line 66"
Went to bed early, got up before the roosters, and reported on time at 3:56.....only to find out it was a PM run. Had the dispatcher reported my assignment in military time, I could have gotten some nice sleep in, knowing it was an afternoon assignment.
Most of the world works on 24-hour system anyway....
Went to bed early, got up before the roosters, and reported on time at 3:56.....only to find out it was a PM run.
My model railroad runs on 24 hour time, and that is how the timetables are printed.
It is also easier on the computers.
: ) Elias
Do the others complain about people sitting the extra extra board at 0300? :)
Nah, the REGULAR drivers complain about the extra board drivers snoring too loud at that time of the morning!!!
Usually those XB drivers complain if they have to go out on a run that early; most of them plan on sleeping when they get to the yard at that hojur!!
'This is WWV National Bureau of Standards, Fort Collins, Colorado. Coordinated Universal Time is bling-bling-bling.' I've been wearing an analogue watch without the day/date/meridian features and am lost.
BTW: WWV 2.5/5.0/10.0/15.0/20.0/25.0 transmitters were Technical Materiel GPT-10Ks running at about 3.5K AM equivalent. Did that work too! I hate 'oil and brakes,' give me the juice. CI peter
In Europe, people use 24-hour time routinely.
I concur about Europe.
But here in America, we use the 24 hour clock on paper for operations, but it would confuse most visitors announcing the
departure of the 1330 car etc. for Short Beach in Sprague station.
;-) Sparky
Piotr, Walter, and I left about 1800... it was no bargain then. We stopped for beans at the Sherwood, it was nasty when we stopped and even worse later. Got real bad after dropping Walter off in Newark... wind and rain were so strong that I was running 40-45 on the GSP and still going faster than a lot of folks. Took the long route into South Amboy (Piotr's house) because of flooding, I went back on the Parkway at exit 120 and stayed around 40 all the way down to my exit (105). Made it in the door around 2300. Hate to think how much longer it would have taken me in the truck (with two passengers I had to take the van).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then we eight, in two cars, were just plain lucky as it was only lightly raining when we left the Cracker Barrel (I beat Sparky in a Checker match ... he was winning, but made one mistake). Lou from Brooklyn & I also had a match in front of the roaring fireplace.
What's particularly heartening about Thurston's "rise to power" is that having met him and talked to him, he's every BIT as passionate towards streetcars and busses as he is towards rapid transit. It means that his opinions and likely guidance to the board will be VERY reasonable and well tempered, and the great deal of respect he has for ALL things "transit" tells me that when the day comes that interest in trolleys declines in the distant future, he'll be well positioned to help the museum transition from a "trolley museum" to an all-inclusive "TRANSIT museum" which will serve to keep BERA alive and well for another century.
EXCELLENT choice, BERA, and congrats Thurston! You EARNED it! :)
Where is BERA and what do they do?
BERA is the Branford Electric Railway Assn, preservers of transit history. Have a look ...
http://www.bera.org/
[... passionate towards streetcars and busses as he is towards rapid transit ...]
Read my lips, I only WORK for a bus company < G >
Seriously, thanks for the kind words ... BTW, I haven't told the wife yet.
Congratulations anyway.
Seriously, being a Trustee of a railway/streetcar museum is a feather in your cap, but also a serious responsibility. I have been a Trustee of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum for many years, so I would like to offer two points of advice:
1. Remember that you represent not only the people who voted for you, but also the people who didn't vote for you.
2. That title and $2.98 will get you a burger at the local burger joint.
I hope it turns out to be as much a labor of love as what else I do there. I personally like most of those either left or coming on the Board.
I sincerely believe that you're JUST the right temperment for the job. And as Dan suggested, I also know that you'll be watching out for ALL sides. That's the reason why I'm glad they did it. I know you support the RT side of the house which is what our own interests are, but I also know you'll take care of the trolley side and the rubber tire side, and that's what sets you apart from "partisans" ... I'm really happy you were chosen.
2. That title and $2.98 will get you a burger at the local burger joint.
It'll cost him more than that; he has to buy burgers for everyone who voted for him! ;)
Kidding, of course. I don't think it was mentioned yet in this thread just how much support Thurston got. Few hands were down when it came time to record eight seconds to put him on the ballot.
Again, congratulations, Thurston! Saturday was a great day for the future of BERA. I'll have mine medium-rare, with mushrooms and fried onions.
He'll need the $2.98, the museum rules says he has to upgrade his membership to the next class for this "honor".
Heh. I saw that pained look on your face while we reviewed the rubber tire world at Branford. If money fell out of a tree and everything already waiting for attention had received it, I know you'd want to get one or more of them running. You're not fooling ANYONE. :)
And the kind words are DESERVED, bro. When you tell your hunny that you've done a bad thing and gotten committed, there's a nice warm room waiting for ya up here if you need it. Heh.
>>>"there's a nice warm room waiting for ya up here if you need it. Heh."<<<
Are the walls padded?
;-) Sparky
Fully upholstered ... and the walls under ground level are fully rocked so you can CLIMB them with impunity. Largest portion of the place is underground which saves on heating and rock-climbing is encouraged. Didya wonder why Bingbong and I were able to scramble up and down all those cars all day? It's in the legs. :)
Kevin,
I just made the railroad sign with activity. If youse weren't
ready, you'd loose your slot. Didn't have time to watch the
acrobatics. We squeaked seven RT runs in between Streecars
and MOW.
;-) Sparky
Yep ... I saw we were the shoehorn number, that's why I danced the way I did and Nancy danced too to them switches. Only blew our potential interval once as I remember, a testimony to *your* ability to dance. That was some fancy footwork ya did there, bro. :)
>>>"Only blew our potential interval once as I remember"<<< YOU DID,
that news to me. The only adjustment of consequence was in the
afternoon, when the arnine was detained by the eniviro cop
questioning the access of the ATVs on the ROW. Did what I had
to do, and didn't miss the beat. Adjusted the sequence and pulled
775 as the gap filler. That's what I remember or I'm having a
"Senior Moment". >G<
;-) Sparky
Yep, PRECISELY the missed interval. I heard "rumors" from somebody that we were due to go out, gathered up the geese, locked 'em in and heard we were ABD'd ... didn't know the reason at the time, so we all stepped off and went and irritated Thurston. :)
After all, any railroader from back in 1689's day will tell you ABD's were a way of life. I took it in stride, I never did mind sitting out a trip when the opportunity presented itself. Good thing Unca Lou got as weary as I did or that sucker would have done a midnight shift. Heh.
1st, explain ABD's.
As for the interval for your touring with McThurston, I just got yaws
on line, when you wanted it. Everybody caught the game plan for
setting the switches. We did much running in short time.
As for the tour of the "Minnie", someone asked and I siged you'll on
Jeff H. I do not have access to that car house, since the keys
were switched.
Kept yaws out of my hair, while I put the toys away in the afternoon.
That's why I get the big bucks. Found out Saturday the cash value
of our services is $15.31 per hour.
;-) Sparky
Howdy ... got busy on something else ... ABD's are abandoned intervals in TA parlance, a train that doesn't run or dies somewhere along the route. Hope you don't think I'm complaining AT ALL here, I found it amusing that a few got told "here we go" and then we didn't. In fact, the insanity of the day (including W3 out there in the pasture) actually made for a much wider appreciation of all Branford has ... had we had complete run of the railroad, we probably would never have left 1689 to see anything else. So it worked out MARVELOUSLY ...
I was amused by the chinese fire drill aspect of the "we might roll, guys" and stand in awe of your ability to not whip out a GUN and be done with all of us. :)
I thought ABD was along those lines. Being non-TA, I don't know
all the parlance. At Branford, if the trip is aborted it's XLD
or short turned at Edgewood.
I know at one time during your touring, I had to shove youse onto
1689 to make a trip. Really didn't want to work too late that
Sunday. It all worked out to perfection in reasonable time.
Well getting on me bandwagon a bit, I run a hell of a tight RR,
and Bill Young keeps the ride smooth. We battle like oil & water,
but we do keep the geese moving.
Even though the MOW caused a GO shortened line, much to the disdain
of one of the SubTalk/Operators this month. Hey 1 day of our
operating season for the "Track Blitz" and 59 ties exchanged by
voluntary labor, speaks for itself.
>>>"we might roll, guys" and stand in awe of your ability to not whip out a GUN and be done with all of us. :)"<<<
I was forceful when required, you wanna play on my Railroad, you
play by my rules or else.
;-) Sparky
Your rules worked just FINE by me, and yeah, that "everybody BACK on the bus" run was amusing too. I actually enjoyed the challenge of the run out to, but not bumping W3 out there. We got 1689 reasonably close without having Bill and his buddies diving off the crane car. Heh.
So now you owe me one, buddy ... what's "XLD" mean? Never encountered that one. And since I'm one of those weird ones that respects the rules of the host railroad when operating in foreign territory, might be useful for me to know. :)
Also, you guys have a rulebook somewhere I can read for future reference and avoidance of wasting other people's time when I go for certification on your railroad?
XLD on the Dispatchers log sheet at Branford means a cancelled trip,
that did not operate. We have "P" for parties, "C" for charters
and I use "I" for inspection run in the AM and "SH" for short turn
trip, needed to keep cars rotated.
The rule book comes to you when you enroll in the "Training Class"
and is part of the package for "School Car"
;-) Sparky
Interesting symbology. Whatever works. As for school car, once we get our house in order on this end, I do intend to do that, somehow I expect I'll make the cut. And being able to run a streetcar would be a thrill as well when needed. Here's hoping there's an economy next year so we can hire someone so I can get out and play.
I'm glad to see you have such a positive outlook on Shoreline. I'll bet Nancy would qualify as an operator in a heartbeat. Believe me, had I stayed back east 22 years ago, I would have joined that museum a long time ago and would have been as often as possible. I actually dated a girl once who was a member at Warehouse Point. She even operated their Illinois Terminal PCC.
To be brutally honest, I would have wanted to go with the Kingston museum since it's only an hour away from here. And perhaps if the fortune of an economy occurs, I can hire up some employees again and have some time off and money to back it up with, I might still go and join Kingston (TMNY.ORG) ... but last I saw, they were still pulling their subway cars around behind diesel power and are definitely not in as fair of a position as Branford is to restore their R4 (which from the pictures on their site is in HORRIBLE condition) or their other RT cars.
What caused me to fall in love with Branford though goes beyond being able to get handle time on 1689 and playing motorman again, it's the PEOPLE that make Branford special in my eyes. From Sparky to Bill to Jeff to George to all those familiar faces we all know from here, it's the PEOPLE that make Branford special. Trains and streetcars are just THINGS ... just as irreplaceable as good friends and cohorts, but the PEOPLE of Branford are precisely the reason why we made the commitment ourselves and intend to RETAIN our membership, despite it being a horrendously long ride from where we are to get there.
I cannot praise Branford and its people enough ... and I don't impress easily.
Kevin,
Once again thanks for the plaudits as a member of BERA [active] and
TMNY [inactive]. If the situation were reversed Kerhonskon to
Kingston is a stone's trow. But I operate under juice, not
behind or with compustion engines.
;-) Sparky
Yeah, that was pretty much my reason as well though I heard there were projects in the works to put in a substation and that track welds had been underway. Haven't seen anything on the tmny site though in a very very long time about anything progressing past what i saw there, so the assumption is nothing's occurred. It's a shame.
Many times I've thought about raising funds to purchase a dead CPRail line between Albany and Voorheesville which would be a NATURAL for a rapid transit museum in a setting where the locals WOULD go for the necessary permits *AND* third rail operation if the ROW were fenced off from end to end. Alas, if Kingston can't draw a crowd, they sure ain't gonna travel TWICE the distance to come up here. :(
Frank Corrall would be proud of you.:)
whoopie! :)
Didn't you say something about having thunder thighs from your days as a conductor?:)
Heh. I could crush a truck between my legs. :)
Can you imagine what your thighs would have been like if you worked a long local route such as the CC when it ran all the way to Rockaway Park? You had to feel for those conductors, especially when the R-10s ran on that route.
The D train was a good workout going in the wrong direction. And yeah, like I said, could crush a truck. There was also the "ceremony of the chains" that you kinda missed with 1689 being a single. You had to remove the chain between cars and park it, then put it back when you stepped down, over and over again. Lots of exercise, never a worry about being crushed between cars out there on a curve. There were NO fatties in the monkey suit back in the old days. :)
Many congrats to you Thurston !
Bill "Newkirk"
As some of you Sub-Talkers already know Thurston was elected yesterday as a three year trustee of the Shoreline Trolley Museum along with Bill Wall and Rob Parente.
This means that there are at least three pro rapid transit trustees (Thurston, Bill and Jeff H.) on the board, with some new ideas on how to operate the museum with any eye toward increasing membership and attendance.
That's very good for Thurston, but your second sentence raises a question ... shouldn't every trustee of a trolley museum be a strong transit advocate?
Pete, you misunderstood. When we say "rapid transit" at Branford we are talking about subway and el cars as opposed to trolleys. The trolley people at Branford wants the museum to be strictly a trolley museum. Now we have two people who are subway and el afficionados.
And unfortunately, purists on EITHER side of the debate cause suspicion and worry for those on the "other" side ... what's NICE about Branford is that there are more people who see BOTH sides of electric traction as complimentary rather than antagonistic, and that's something that will ensure that I'll want to continue to be a member. What's amusing is that trolleys are coming BACK! Granted, they call it "light rail" but some of us know better. :)
What's GREAT about Thurston making the cut is that he respects BOTH sides. And that means that he won't be selling out the trolleys in favor of the rapid transit part of the collection, nor will he be inclined to denigrate the rapid transit part. TRULY a win-win for ALL sides!
what's NICE about Branford is that there are more people who see BOTH sides of electric traction as complimentary rather than antagonistic
Transit is not a one-size-fits-all thing. Subways are best in certain circumstances, newly revived trolleys in others, and buses in still others.
Agreed, but it's nice to see many museums do cater to all three to as best a degree as they can. For me, it's the subway cars that do it though the trolley rides are nice too. What'd be DISNEYLAND for me would be some place I could step into the cab and run ten cars again. Now THAT'D be great. I couldn't do the TWU thing again, so I've learned to settle for just one. :)
Yeah, a nice 10-car train of R-1/9s, butt plug and all, on an eight-mile straightaway. Get the bull and pinion gears up to A-440.
Not all straightaway, gotta hear some screeching wheels!!!
Arnines didn't do all that much screeching - the grease that created the patented blue smoke often allowed them to slip nicely and avoid that metallic noise on all but the sharpest turns ... now a 10'er of 6688's ... that'd be noisy. :)
Yeah, Wayne would love it.:)
Steve,
If we can get his butt up there after forty years.
;-) Sparky
>>>"Now we have two people who are subway and el afficionados."<<<
Come on now Sarge, two on the board. Someones missing, you tell
us which two you think. Because there are three "subway and el afficionados"
on the Board of Trustees at Branford for 2003.
You name your two, and I'll fill in the blank for the third.
;-) Sparky
OK, Ok, three!!! By the way, my post was just to explain to Peter Rosa the Branford definition of "rapid transit", not to get into any internal politics.
No internal politics, admit you misquoted. Your a newbie and not
that familiar with all the players. O.K.
;-) Sparky
Congratulations to you, Thurston! I know you've been at Shoreline for quite sometime now, and I've seen you work as a leader by organizing some subtalk field trips....so I am sure this position is just right! :-) -Nick
Quite some time at Branford = three years, same as me.
I'm the seasoned Branford poster on this board.
Eighteen years and counting. Been there ... done that.
;-) Sparky
And the same as a bunch of us. You, me, Thurston, Big Lou, Pete the Pole, Dave Wallace (very occasional poster), and maybe some other posters all joined the same weekend, thanks to the publicity that Autumn in New York received on this website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I joined one year later, same reason.
And it was "Sure ... go ahead and wake up the arnine" that did it for me and Nancy ... funny the things it takes to make foamers show up and pay up. GREAT sidewalk act though, got my wallet. :)
The following appears in the current edition (November) of the
BERA Tripper. It's on line now for BERA members. Text less the
photos, maybe someone else will add them.
>>>"On October 13th, the museum hosted an unusual charter consisting entirely of participants from the online SubTalk discussion group. Lou Levinson and John Sikorski coordinated the mini-event which utilized R-9 subway car 1689 and recruited nearly a dozen new members, among them Steve Bulota, an exile from New York City now living in Colorado, who wrote, "1689 looked and ran great. It was a real treat to hear those all-too-familiar sounds again: the moaning, groaning bull and pinion gears, the throbbing compressor, the snarl and hiss along with the accompanying `tch-ssss' magnet valve sound as the brakes were applied, and the sounds of the doors as they opened and closed. For this author, it was a trip back in time."<<<
Thanks SubTalkers ;-) Sparky
Jeff H said he'd lift a paragraph from my report.
The funny thing is, I've never lived in New York!:)
Oh man! I guess I should have sent you the proff copy first!
Oh well, too late for that. Now you know.:)
Just saw the Nov issue on-line. Article on the 10/13 charter includes two photos: one of Bill Newkirk & On The Juice who are obviously enjoying themselves. The second shows the Arnine fans geting their money's worth, i.e. inside Peter Witt #2898 listing to a tour ... and I'll bet most of you thought all they did that day was play with the R-9 ?
Further in the issue are some of these same SubTalkers getting dirty on the line. One photo catches guest, E-Dog, with pick in hand getting the old tie ready for extraction. He wanted to get dirty so I handed him the pick and stepped back.
I'm sure that many of you had fun on the arnine. I bet that Sparky had a good time on the arnine.
#3 West End Jeff
Sparky spent most of the day out there in the mist 'Dispatching", and because the Arnine was going to & from Avenue L, our high platform, this ment he was doing a lot of switch throwing. All this so we could have fun. Talk about a labor of love ! As I've said before, he deserves all the praise that has come his way.
TO ALL CONCERNED, everyone, everybody paid their due that Sunday,
if you were a member, you paid the "Charter" fee. If you weren't
a member you are now. You had to be a member, at minimum to ride
and posses a charter ticket. A regular membership was the minimum for
"handle time". The operating staff also paid their fee and labored.
The toners, donate mucho physical labor as required to other things
that need tending to, MOW, Signals, Shop, B&G besides ops. Having
physical restrictions, I do very little other than operations.
It was my day to pay homage to the laborers that keep Shore Line
alive. There's more then running trolleys or subway cars.
Now let's end the bull sheet, your getting me vain. It was a
team Sub-Talk effort.
;-) Sparky
PS-For those of us whom are members and read the "Tripper" on line,
will have to listen to trustee~elect McThurston, the "DOCENT". >G<
I'm sure that throw the switches was plenty of work, particularly if they were the "strongarm" switches.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff,
We have only one "electrically operated" switch at Branford.
There are various, strong arm types.
;-) Sparky
You had to be there. It was a blast, even in the No Foaming section.:)
> recruited nearly a dozen new members
I should get kickbacks!
Membership is at a record high at BERA. Still short of 1,000 but I hope we can get there! Active membership at 976.
And reviewing some tapes, this AM, more so a copy from the
Centennial of the Railway, July 28, 2000, when membership
was at 870 +/-.
;-) Sparky
Dave P,
I was referencing the archieves of the Tripper and saw you have
come aboard after the Centennial of the Railway. Welcome Aboard
enjoy the trip and be seated and do not speak to the Motorman
while car is in motion. Seriously, thanks for the space.
Will we reach the magic 1K by year's end?
Membership info at BERA.org
;-) Sparky
Yeah, sorry, I'm only a 1-year member so far. Just sent in my renewal. You guys are better about sending out the renewal forms than the NY Transit Museum. Every year my membership lapses and they never send any forms or anything.
The same here. It was almost 9 months after my membership from the TM lapsed before I realized that it did. They never sent me a thing. Now the real crazy thing is that a friend of mine let his membership lapse a few years ago (knowingly) and he still gets the events brochures to this day! (He just got one not so long ago). I was a loyal member for many years, and never heard from them again after the membership was up (or even to say that it was). I have to renew again, but I figured I'd wait at this point until it's open again.
Now the real crazy thing is that a friend of mine let his membership lapse a few years ago (knowingly) and he still gets the events brochures to this day!
That makes two of us... and I've even written them a letter telling them why I wasn't renewing (they cancelled trips and would not refund money - only vouchers good on other trips that I'd already taken, not even on merchandise in the store) and they still keep sending me stuff. Oh well, my shredder doesn't seem to mind :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now you certify reasons that I should not join the "Transit Museum"
or join once and forget about renewing, since you become a
perpetual member. HMM, sometin to stink about. >G<
;-) Sparky
This posting was a response to Anon_e_mous' post not David Pirmann.
Excuse WA.
:-) Sparky
Dave,
At Branford we need the gelt. We have little, if any corporate
sponsors, do not host "Black Tie" fund raisers etc. as the
Transit Museum. With a paid staff, they omit the supporting cast.
At Branford, a part time employee gets it together and we don't drop you till 12 months later. Thanks for renewing.
What pains this household, is that most Museums come due the same time
of the year.
;-) Sparky
What pains this household, is that most Museums come due the same time of the year.
And it's not just museums... I am a member of a number of other organizations that also operate on the basis of annual dues, and almost all of them are due and payable by the first of January (the exceptions being the Falcon Club of America, which operates on a rolling schedule, the Keystone Chapter FCA which comes due in the fall, and the PRRT&HS, whose due date is 15 February).
Makes me wish I could afford life memberships so I don't have to keep track of them all!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's one reason I shelled out a lifetime membership fee in the UConn Alumni Association a few years back. Took care of the dues issue once and for all.
Too bad the Train Collectors Association doesn't have that deal anymore.
>>>"Took care of the dues issue once and for all."<<<
At Branford }Lifetime membership is available in the REGULAR, SUSTAINING and SUPPORTING categories upon lump-sum payment of twenty (20) times the regular annual dues for that category. Thereafter, life members are not required to pay annual dues{
A suggestion for thought, makes up for the year's you didn't join.
;-) Sparky
So in my case, that would come to $600.00, if my arithmetic is correct.
Something to think about when it comes time to cash in my unused sick pay.:)
Steve,
BERA will accept it graciously, even if the TCA will not.
;-) Sparky
That TCA deal was a great one.
I wish that I could have taken advantage of it back then.
Did you know that once upon a time the NRA had a $100.00 life membership fee?
>>>"Makes me wish I could afford life memberships so I don't have to keep track of them all!"<<<
Chris,
Write off the board and I'll tell yaw a good story about museums
and life memberships. If I write it here, could be misconstrued
as bashing.
;-) Sparky
And for some who have paid off the mortage, those bills come in this time of year too :-(
Right. Fortunately, for our house in NC, the tax bill comes in August (payable by December) and the insurance in February so it's not so bad - I've always paid them directly, even when I had a mortgage on that house. In NJ the bank gets their chunk every month and pays the taxes quarterly, insurance annually.
What's worse are the car insurance bills... makes my NC property tax bill look like chump change.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Like you I have to house's, so the bills are double :-(
Sparky, Try the Tripper site again!
I tried twice last night and the pictures were not there. When I tried this morning, they were all viewable.
Karl,
I saw the pictures all the time. I just don't have the equipment
to make the tieing connection. Besides the site is "For Members
Only". No Pay No View. But that picture of "Calendars & On The
Juice" is a whiz bang from the BMT Man.
Memberships available at BERA.ORG.
;-) Sparky
That was a great picture of Bill and Peter!
I have never met either of them, but I sort of form an impression of a person from their posts, Peter looked just as I had pictured he would in my mind, but Bill certainly didn't.
Yeah...it really looks like a racy picture 'cuse Peter looks like he's about to let out a yelp at the site of Bill with that plug....(wonder where he was planning to use it?) :o LOL!
Coulda fooled me, looks like Bill had his handle time and forgot to pull the electric brake on his way out of the cab, then remembered to retrieve it. :)
Thruston:
Are you out there? Congradulations from Jeff Alterman a.k.a. #3 West End Jeff.
#3 West End Jeff
Mr. T does not have PC access over the weekend.
Mr. T will probably acknowledge my message once he gets to the PCs where he works.
#3 West End Jeff
Hi to you Jeff ! Missed you on the past Field Trips.
You would have enjoyed the old photo of the merry-go-round in CI at the ERA meeting Friday. The theme was pre-graffitti. Lots of photos of the R-10 fan trip. Was nice to see it in so many locations in the City as a train.
I hope to see you once again on a future field trip.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>"R-10 fan trip"<<< Me thinks you meant the R-11 fan trip in '75.
;-) Sparky
Right again !
R-10 were still in the design style of the R-1/9
R-11 was the Budd car
We did also see a number of R-1/9 & 10 in World's Fair Colors
IIRC: One arnine in blue & silver. Many variations of paint schemes
on the R-10s.
BTW, what are "World's Fair Colors" on R1-9 & 10s?
;-) Sparky
BTW, what are "World's Fair Colors" on R1-9 & 10s?
The 10s got the light blue & white "racing stripe" scheme for the Fair. Nothing on the Arnines.
AFAIK by the time the R-10s were redone in the racing stripe scheme, the World's Fair was over.
No, IIRC the R-10s' repainting job arrived in time for the second year of the World's Fair, in 1965.
I can't say for sure, since I didn't ride on the R-10s until 1967. By then they were all wearing the racing stripe scheme. All of our subway rides in July of 1965 were on the BMT Southern Division.
Sparky ...
The Racing Strip Scheme on the R-10
The R-1/9 never had this scheme. Perhaps you were thinking of the World's Fair R-36s delivered as new?
--Mark
The 1939 World's Fair had blue & orange as it's color, and the BMT painted it's recently rebuilt Q types accordingly.
Now that you mention it. IIRC, there were/was an arnine painted
interior wise with that scheme. I know I rode it on the "GG".
;-) Sparky
Should have looked at Greller's book prior to posting, it was 1741
in 1964.
;-) Sparky
I think that the World's Fair paint on the R36's in 1964 and 1965 is one of the best ever. I would not want it on any other train at any other time, but at the time, I think that it was great.
Nothing on the R36 cars has looked so good.
Hats off to my favorite R-10 paint scheme. I remember it well.
To each his own, I prefered the Hunter Green on the R-10s the best.
;-) Sparky
You're right. Everybody has their own taste. Not that that green paint job didn't look all that bad on the R-10s....
How about this, they could have Steve:
Gold pinstripes and a darker shade of green called brunswick.
;-) Sparky
Mark,
Thanks for the input and cross treads, except your answering
the innocent poster herefor. Go back to tread 410782, when
I change the "Subject" in response to McThurston. He posted,
>>>"We did also see a number of R-1/9 & 10 in World's Fair Colors"<<<,
not Sparky.
Hey Mark, watch me boil SBF, I received the photo of that handsome
quartet "On The Boardwalk", October 14 TODAY. Nice guys to say
the least.
;-) Sparky
Glad to hear you got the photo. I made sure I got as much of the word "Cyclone" as I could.
Heh, yeah, I think we're a fine bunch :)
--Mark
Mark,
I do not have the equipment, but if you can, why not post that
distinguished quartet for all to see. SBF is quiet about it.
;-) Sparky
If I may interject...
Fred and Sparky requested that photo from me. Mark and Howard, if either of you would like a print as well, email me your address privately and I'll be glad to send you one as well.
BTW I don't have a scanner, either.
R10 fan trip?
You mean R11 don't you?
Congratulations Thurston.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thurston,
My heartfelt congratulations.
Allan
BERA member # 1705
Allan,
I guess I'm not the "senior Branfordite poster" on this board.
;-) Sparky
BERA 1824, Mrs. Sparky 1825.
Actually neither am I.
The most senior member who posts here (albiet only on occasion) is Ray Crapo.
Allan,
FYI, Ray Crapo is not a current member of BERA. I verified with
the corporate secretary. But has the chutzpah to have a member
ask that he be included on the Tripper Mailings. Let's leave
it at that. I have no desire to start another inflammatory
tread.
Also, if geography permits, do you visit Branford often?
;-) Sparky
I have only been to Branford 3 times in all the years I have been a member.
Since I don't have a car it is a bit difficult to get up there. I keep up on the goings on by the Tripper, the web site and the various postings on Subtalk. I was there a year or so ago with the Transit Museum (15 years after my last visit) and while things have changed I was not suprised because of my reading of the Tripper.
Also as I don't have the patience or talent to work on refurbishing the cars I do my part by making quarterly contributions to BERA to support what you, Thurston, Stef, Doug, Jeff and other work so hard to accomplish (I also make sure my employer matches my contributions).
As for Ray no longer being a member, I can understand why. After all the effort he put in years ago he probably gave up with all of the internal politics and "club mentality" that was prevelant at one time. Let's not dwell on that.
Allen,
What was then, was then ... What is now, is not what was then.
Don't cast stones from the outside. I'm a card bearing member
in four "Trolley Museums" and one is totally hideously
uncommunicative and I still maintain my membership and refrain
from bashing. Someone should be equivalent in their written
statements. Let stop here. Your support is most welcomed.
;-) Sparky
Allan, Something eles we have in common !
You must come up some day & let me take you for a ride < G >
Thanks to all for the kind words, lets hope I can live up to them and count to ten when the argument gets heated, i.e. keep my B-I-G mouth shut < G >
As some have said I know about the place for a very long time, growing up as a Swamp Yankee along the Ct River. I first went there on a rt week-end. I came back again and again. In 2000 I became a trolley operator & got called into service many times that year by mentor Sparky (JohnS) ... about 100 hours each of the past three years. We had another mentor who named us the 3/4 Ton Crew because we are all so small in stature < G > The name stuck, now when there work to be done on the line we're asked if there is any Tonage available. We gladly help out doing track & signal work just to name a couple.
Some there complain that we have fun, well it's a hobby. So, I don't see what is a matter with enjoying our labors. This past September I got to operate several of our rt cars for the public, I enjoyed that. In October we were the railroad, so had to operate regular trolley trips, do tours and a little handle time on a certain Arnine ... It was a fun day from start to finish !
So it's natural when they see you're having too much fun (the hours you put in that are recorded) someone will ask you to run for the Board. I take the job understanding the value of the trolley portion of the collection, but it's no mystery what part I care about above all others ;-)
If you are still sitting on that fence, consider jumping off, you'll find a lot of folks glad to become your friends. This October we made a few new ones and best of all they have returned to give us a hand.
Those of us who are a long distance away are with you in spirit.
Congratulations!
I know that, because I can see your smile, even from here !
BTW, Larry Red Bird gave me some copies of his work 10/13. One you'll enjoy ... I'll scan it & forward it along.
Wow, I know a celebrity! Vote Thurston in 2006 for Governor! :)
Congrats, Thurston.
--Mark
Which state ?
< G >
My house in Ct was built by a Clark in 1751.
The Commonwealth of Confusion.
;-) Sparky
Been there too. Loved those Dallas Cars in Bean Town.
I didn't say the commowealth of Massconfusion, did I?
Oh, I forgot your roots are in the State of Constipation.
;-) Sparky
You are in a witty State of Mind today, aren't you? :)
--Mark
Saturday he went to a meeting East of New Haven. The was a realy witty guy there ... maybe it's just a coincidence < G >
Mark,
Pray for me. This is the witticism, I'll have to endure for the
next three years. I have to do this waggery to preserve my lucidity.
Maybe they'll pad the walls of the shack for us TSS types.
Eh, Mr. Trustee Elect. How about it.
;-) Sparky
Out of curiosity, how many people are on the BERA Board of Directors?
I've never been to a Branford board meeting, but after talking with Jeff H. (who was at one of IRM's legendary "pissing-match" board meetings recently) it sounds pretty serene compared to what I'm used to here in Illinois.
Frank Hicks
Frank, the BERA board is 9 individuals all of whom must be
at least 21 years old.
Started out by taking the B68 to Pritchard Sq, then I went downstairs to catch the F at 15 St caught the F just in time and took it to Jay St, where I would wait a few minutes until a R44 A arrived. A nice express run to Broadway Junction/East New York. Before I left, I went to the MTA website and to make sure the L train GO was on. So out of curiosity, I click on the G and it says trains are running every 30 minutes between Hoyt St and Forest Hills. Did anyone ride the G and if you did, was it reall every 1/2 hour?
Back to the story, so I exit the station in the rain & go outside and I catch the bus, 8216 outside. As I thought, there was no express service[supposed to be direct service btw B'way Junction & Rockaway Pkwy] as they promised. Anyway, its a good ride and since I didn't feel like going back so quick, I decide to take a round trip on the B42 and after that, I resume my ride on the shuttle bus. So the rain clears up for now so I catch 8321 and I go back to B'way, man that portion of the L needs some brightening up, [maybe they should have parked a few R143's on the tracks so drivers & people could see the stations lol ;-)] and I was ready to go home but I see 9321 and I decide to wait for it so I take that back to Rockaway Pkwy but as we were turning on Stanley Av/Foster Av, I see what looks like a car fire and it looked intense.
So we arrive at Rokaway Pkwy & I hop onto 8525 and we wait here for about 8-10 minutes and then we finally move on and we do good until we are held at the intersection of Snediker Av & Stanley Av for a couple of minutes b/c of fire trucks[at the time the rain had stopped]. They clear the road & we proceed via Snediker and we make a few turns until I arrive back at the station. Then I have to wait about 10 minutes before a A train arrives and I take it to Jay St, where I have to wait about 10-12 minutes for a F to arrive. Then I take that to 18 Av and then I take the B8 home.
Some observsations:
1. Not enough shuttle buses on the GO.
2. No C train in sight, I wonder how long it took to arrive at B'way
3. Not enough A trains
4. F is way too slow on weekends
5. Saw R32 GE's 3892/3893 coupled to MK R32's. I like the MK's but more 32's should have been rebuilt by GE
6. Saw lots of R38's with "wonder tape" and/or "brown superglue" on their roofs. How come some roofs are fine but others aren't?
This is a abbreviated story, I wanted to focus more on the GO here. For the whole story, look in bustalk since it would be more appropiate.
RTS 8564 B68
R46 6087(F)
R44 5255(A)
RTS 8216(L shuttle)
RTS 4410 B42
RTS 4414 B42[Return]
RTS 8321 (L shuttle)
RTS 9321 (L shuttle)
RTS 8525 (L shuttle)
R44 5337(A)
R46 5525(F)
RTS 8543 B8
2. No C train in sight, I wonder how long it took to arrive at B'way
3. Not enough A trains
4. F is way too slow on weekends
Sounds like everyday on those lines.....
Seriously though, that sounded like quite an exausting adventure! I'm not that much of a "busfan", so all those buses would have frove me crazy! (although it sounds like that was the point of your trip-to someone who enjoys bus rides, it would be quite a lot of fun).
Normally the very thought of a bus makes me cringe, but there are a couple of interesting vehicles out there 1) the articulated buses, and I will ONLY sit on the donut; 2) the kind where the seat is higher in the back, i.e. NYCT bus 815, 817, 819 etc.
wayne
>>>"NYCT bus 815, 817, 819 etc"<<<
Wayne, those 8XX & 9XX are the low floor CNG buses operating
from Jackie Gleason Depot. They were frequent visitors in
Greenpoint on the B-43 & B-61. Now the bulk are on the
expanded B-68 to Stillwell Ave. Crumy beat up RTS on
the Greenpoint Routes now. Yeah, a trolley guy watching
buses, in his hood anyway.
;-) Sparky
Ah yes, the stench of a diesel bus; but don't you REALLY wish for the "clang, clang, clang" of a REAL trolley?
wayne
>>>"the stench of a diesel bus"<<<
I'm not up to speed on engines, but CNG & diesel are not the same.
>>>"but don't you REALLY wish for the "clang, clang, clang" of a REAL trolley?"<<<
More so that I've obtained my copy of BQ&T Coney Island to Flushing.
As usual in books, the captions, leave much do be desired. When
a photo, where the street sign is visible and reads Meserole Ave.
is identified as Meserole St., even though the type car and the car line would cross both streets.
I'm esthetic about the book, more so that I can go to the local
photo location and be amazed, what has changed and what has remained.
It's a must read addition for any Brooklyn Trolley Fans, with
superb photos.
Also, the what could have been, listing the Trolley Lines suggested
for retention in Brooklyn, included the lines mentioned in my
post. But if retained, the PCCs would be due for replacement
by LRV. The end of real trolley cars.
;-) Sparky
In addition I was impressed with all the different car numbers in the shots ... from early 1900 examples thru the Peter Witts to the PCCs and a few sweepers to boot. A nice book indeed.
Hey John, ya beat me to it. I got this great book last week, and I've been wanting to call you to look at the pic of the Lorimer St. line car photo at the the intersection of Nassau and Manhattan Ave. The wife and I have remarked that there's alot there that's the same as in 1947!!
Too bad I didn't get to snag all the switches and trackwork at Nassau/Bedford/Manhattan Aves and at the old carhouse before the contractors piled them in the dumpster last year. :(
Well, if you remember the picture of the Lorimer Street Car in 1947,
remember the "Nassau Movie House" ~ the itch. Also do you see a
"Cop" in that picture? The gent in uniform is a NYCBOT inspector,
as they was called then. The trackage visible was also the post
WWII renewed trackage at that location when Lorimer Street was
thru routed onto Nassau Avenue. Prior to that, the Nassau Ave.
Shuttle cars, terminated at the curbside in f/o the Nassau Theatre.
Be they the 25XX, as shown on Nassau at Hausman or the 70XX Birneys.
Also, would it have been worth the trouble of obtaining the remaining
switches from Bedford & Manhattan. Remember they did remove all
the trackage from Nassau Ave, that was installed after WWII prior
to thru routing of Lorimer St. cars.
BTW, don't recognize you by your handle here. Maybe you could email
privately and indentify yourself, please. Thanks.
;-) Sparky
Frankly, to me, anything that uses electricity for power, is limited to one or two cars, and runs on rails IS a real trolley - including so called "LRVs". Technically, trolleys are electricity-driven LRVs by definition. So there. ;-), Richard
["Frankly, to me, anything that uses electricity for power, is limited to one or two cars, and runs on rails IS a real trolley - including so called "LRVs". Technically, trolleys are electricity-driven LRVs by definition. So there. ;-), Richard"]
Actually, just to be technical, the definition of trolley implies getting its electricity from an overhead wire. The word trolley originally referred to the "trolley" wheel on the pole which comes in contact with the wire. So to be technical, neither the Manhattan streetcars which used underground conduits, horsecars, nor the San Fran cable cars, are not trolleys. And if you want to get real technical, the rapid transit cars at Branford such as 1689 are now trolleys by definition.
"And if you
want to get real technical, the rapid transit cars at Branford such as 1689 are now trolleys by definition. "
Ow! Ow! I've been STABBED! :)
Cars like 1689 are really big trolleys in disguise. Mind boggling, ain't it?
-Stef
Dang! Don't say that, I just blew all my shoe fuses and they're 11-1/2 EEE ... but then again I'm comforted by the thought "Oh yeah? So is YOURS!" :)
If you blew your extra wide shoe fuses, maybe you oughta look in the big and tall men's store in Branford, nu? :)
The lesson to be learned is always keep a pair in the roomy confines of the front bulkhead roof lid, along with spare bulbs and your spare handles. The rollsigns don't eat up all THAT much space in there. :)
Not to mention a spare electric brake plug, right?:)
I noticed Lou would put 1689's tools in that compartment above the front window in the cab when he was ready to change operating ends.
There's ANOTHER secret spot above the roof line, but I won't snitch. Cabside marker signal door. Plenty spacious there too. Used to be LOTS of places to put things. When I was a conductor, I'd drop the bulkhead and throw my coat up there too since the lights were out between cars and I could trust that my coat wouldn't get toasted like the rollsigns. :)
Well, been a fun night, need some sleep. Hope to release a major cure for a BIG undisclosed Internet Explorer hole that affects the WORLD and it'll be free since Microsoft's hole is HUGE and they have no intentions of fixing it. GLAD I use Netscape, wish I got paid for all this sometimes. Moo. :)
Was that the door you couldn't find when you were setting 1689's marker lights?
The trap door in the cab over the controller on the ceiling. I thought I remembered it being inside the trap door over the storm door on the right side. Made me crazy for almost ten minutes until I finally remembered ... couldn't do my thing without the proper cabside marker for a D train ya know. :)
B-U-T she still doesn't go Clang Clang < G > and at the end of the pole is a "shoe" vs. a wheel.
Picky picky picky. :)
Don't mind me, Stef and others RUINED MY LIFE! They called my baby a TROLLEY! I want some neck here. Heh.
Must be because of that trolley pole 1689 has to wear now. Now they're treating our pet subway car like chopped liver.
I'll get over it. It's not like the TA's gonna let me take ANOTHER R143 out for a test drive anymore. And 1689 isn't such a bad fallback point in all sincerity, it's just like having my old trusty Mustang back again and RUNNING. The few runs I got stained my pants for a while, but my fingers are getting twitchy again for handle time. Good thing I don't live in the Bronx anymore, it's too expensive to come down just to grab some handle time on the REAL subway these days. :)
Running trains is *SO* much fun when you're not in TWU anymore. Heh.
>>> So to be technical, neither the Manhattan streetcars which used underground conduits, horsecars, nor the San Fran cable cars, are not trolleys <<<
Nor would streetcars and LRVs that take power from overhead wires through a pantograph fit the technical definition.
Tom
I prefer the term "Streetcar". It fits all street railway cars: horse, cable, electric overhead and electric conduit.
LRV is just a term used to sell new streetcars to the public. An LRV is just another streetcar, like a PCC.
As to current collectors, it doesn't change the term. A trolley pole with a wheel, a trolley pole with a shoe, a pantograph, a plow or a grip - it's still a streetcar.
Now, as to trolley poles on subway cars at Branford, there's a very simple reason: It's the LAW. Since 1903, third rail in Connecticut is illegal.
Even if it was legal, I doubt it would be practical at Branford with all the patrons (with children) walking all over the place.
Agreed.
It really is the law. I did throw that in more for the humor than anything else.
Assuming that anyone would be crazy enough to do that, could you see the fights about what kind of third rail, subway or elevated ??
There are enough "fights" between the subway and streetcar "factions" as it is.
Amen. And that's sad really - after all there's more similarities than differences, especially compared to rubber-tired and winged transit.
We actually acquired a piece of CT 3rd rail, it's a strange construction. When we build the fancy building it will be on display (too big to fit in the present building).
No Mack C49's?
Is that what those bulldogs were that replaced the 6000 Peter Witt
Single Enders at the Flatbush Depot?
;-) Sparky
mack buses 5200-5599 were the replacements. anyone else remember them.
Do we want to remember those "dogs"? I'll compromise with you
though how about some St. Louis 3000s [Crosstown & Bergen St.] >EH<
;-) Sparky
also graham av, tompkins and lorimer and dont forget cortelyou rd.
Crosstown and Bergen St. were the Depots [Garages].
Crosstown Line never was ETBed but Bergen was.
St. John's and Flushing also.
;-) Sparky
The G GO is a late night GO, not a weekend GO. Headways are 30 minutes instead of the usual 20, due to single-tracking somewhere, I assume.
I have to get out of the habit of saying that Kevin Walsh has outdone himself, but I really love his new Kings Highway page.
Lots of good stuff to look at and read...
As long as he can outdo himself, It isn't such a bad habit!
Excellent page. His next project should be Jamaica Avenue, a road with an equally old and fascinating history.
He has a great website. I think the before and after photo of the building with the turret is fascinating. That building was built across from a grassy field! I love before and after shots anyway.
As for Jamaica Avenue, that would be a fascinating street to do. On my way home from Queens the other night, I decided to take Myrtle to Jamaica Avenue (Jericho Turpike) instead of my usual trip on the LIE or Northern State/Southern State. Amazingly, it only took about 20 minutes more for me to get home to Central Suffolk, than the Highways usually do.
I hadn't been further East on Jamaica Avenue than Sutphin in a few years, and it seemed so interesting. It brought me back to my childhood when the El used to be there. It's hard to imagine all those buildings had the el in front of it. The stretch where the el used to be was a lot longer than I remember. It's amazing how much of the el is gone.
The Valencia Theater aka Tabernacle Church looks to be in good shape, and all of Jamaica Avenue seemed to improve greatly in the last few years. It looks to be finally be recovering from the loss of the El. But man, do I miss that el.
When I worked in the City and had to automobile commute (because of my odd work hours) I took just about every alternate route imaginable.
One of my very favorite from LIC was to take 69th Street down to Metropolitan Avenue, a route I took often from 1970 to about 1990. Saw many changes, but much that is still a time capsule.
Also a complex route including Fresh Pond Road. Old Brooklyn and Queens lives!
Also a complex route including Fresh Pond Road. Old Brooklyn and Queens lives!
I couldn't agree more. I love Brooklyn and much of Queens (especially the older parts of Queens) I used to live near Fresh Pond Road. And, as for 69th Street, even now it is a pretty fast, pleasant road to take. It hasn't "slowed down" quite as much as some other roads in Queens such as Metropolitan and the stretch of Fresh Pond Road between Metro and Myrtle.
69th Street was of course Fisk Avenue (as the el platform signage still says)
www.forgotten-ny.com
<<>
Yikes...Route 25... Jamaica Avenue/Jericho Turnpike/Middle Country Road, extends almost to Montauk Point...
However I do want to do a page on Jamaica proper including the Rufus King House. I already haver a page on Prospect cemetery which dates to the early 1600s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yikes...Route 25... Jamaica Avenue/Jericho Turnpike/Middle Country Road, extends almost to Montauk Point...
Orient Point. It ends adjacent to the New London Ferry pier. If it continued straight ahead it would shortly run onto the rocks and into LI Sound, or (double yikes) Plum Island.
I already have a page on Prospect cemetery which dates to the early 1600s...
Is that the totally overgrown cemetery just south of the LIRR tracks east of Jamaica?
>>>>Is that the totally overgrown cemetery just south of the LIRR tracks east of Jamaica?<<<
correcta-mundo
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/CEMETERIES/Prospect%20cemetery/aband.html
I thought the page was Forgotten NY, Not Forgotten LI.
Just go up to the point Jericho Turnpike takes over NY 25.
Forgotten NYC?
Of course most of the old interesting things are in the city, but LI is part of NY, (even if not NYC).
Of course most of the old interesting things are in the city
You'd be surprised...
Even in as urban (and lately developed) a town as Babylon, there are quite a number of pre-Civil War survivals. A good chunk of Deer Park Avenue in the business district is still recognizable from 100 year+ photos. Can't say that about my beloved Flatbush.
And remember that Babylon had a railroad station 13 years before Flatbush did.
A problem with old Brooklyn is that areas of it went directly from rural to hard urbanization is a very short time. Tract development in most areas was every bit as brutal as the transformation of potato fields into Levittown.
Forgotten makes a selected foray outside the box now and then. I am planning Secrets of the LIRR and Hoboken pages, and we've already covered the Port Washington branch into Nassau as well as forgotten Boston. NYC remains the focus 95 and 44/100 percent of the time...
www.forgotten-ny.com
As many of us in here would say "I can't wait for it!"
I never cease to be amazed at the job Kevin does. I missed meeting up with him during the 2001 Chicago field trip and I'm sorry we never connected.
Nice site update!
Damn! Reminds me how behind I am in donating to Kevin's place AND to a certain RT website. (guilty, Paul...I owe you a few items...)
>>>Reminds me how behind I am in donating to Kevin[...]<<<
And i do take donations...
www.forgotten-ny.com
As long as I can write it off on my taxes...:)
Great stuff, very nice page there - I wonder though if he's got more to add, going east to Flatbush and on to Brownsville. There's a VERY old house (1600's!) off Kings Highway, around Avenue "D" IIRC, and I believe it is still there.
wayne
I have a whole page full of Dutch colonial houses planned but I may put it on DVD. Yes, i am planning Forgotten NY PPV, with stuff you can't find for free on the website, but I have to figure out iDVD on the Mac first...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you plan to cut the DVD for playing on standalone players, take note of the competing formats DVD-R and DVD+R ... while DVD-R is supposed to be more compatible than DVD+R, neither has "won" in the marketplace ....
--Mark
thanks paul.
www.forgotten-ny.com
As Always, Kevin did an excellent job with his site. Keep up the great stuff, Kevin!
PS-Do you plan on returning the updating schedule to weekly instead of bi-weekly anytime soon? I find myself going through Forgotten-NY Withdrawal on those off weeks.
>>>>PS-Do you plan on returning the updating schedule to weekly instead of bi-weekly anytime soon? I find myself going through Forgotten-NY Withdrawal on those off
weeks. <<<
Ach. Not with those slavedri...er, fine folks at Macy's having me on 6-day weeks during the holidays.
On the biweekly, I have more time to write and research, anyway...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, you absolutely outdid yourself on this one! Very nice! You even remembered the traffic circle ... that's 3/4 of a block where I grew up after the age of 12, and where my parents still live today.
Absolutely awesome!
--Mark
Thx Mark
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oyster Bay Branch
As a result of the implementation of the new diesel and dual mode equipment, timing changes will be made on a number of Oyster Bay Branch trains. Forty-seven trains will have reduced running times of up to eight minutes, three trains will have increased running times of up to two minutes.
{from MTA)
QUestion:What do they mean new implementation?they have new equipment on Oyster Bay Branch?
Maybe they will be running more of the dual modes into Penn Station from Oyster Bay as they are returning from being repaired?
There are no plans to add more service to Penn Station from Oyster Bay. The dual modes were purchased to give people on the Port Jeff branch a one seat ride.
The reduced running times are for the better performance of the equipment. Faster doors, accel, and braking let the RR reduce the running times.
They did the Port Jeff branch a few months ago, lowering the times there and the Montauk branch will be done by next summer.
They mean the double (or triple, if you prefer) decker diesel stock, and the fact that they are apparently going to use more dual-mode locos.
I have no clue what that means, the schedule still calls for the one AM peak DM into Penn Station and the one PM peak DM into Oyster Bay. No weekend DM's. Strange...
They seem to have made some adjustments to the time between certain stations in the schedules. For example, during the AM rush hour there used to be 3 minutes scheduled for Locust Valley to Glen Cove, and 4 minutes for Roslyn to Albertson. Now it's 4 minutes from LV to GC and 3 minutes from Ros to Alb. Perhaps these are due to the performance of the new equiptment on certain stretches of track -- I don't know the line well enough to speculate.
The 8 minute change is on the former 7:33 to Hunterspoint, which used to take 48 minutes just to get to Mineola and now is scheduled for 40 (leaving 7:41). That's a 20% reduction in travel time for that stretch.
There are other changes as well, and it does seem as though the speed-ups out number the slowdowns. As Clayton noted, there is no additional DM service, even on weekends. There is one extra DM round-trip from both Port Jeff and Speonk on Thanksgiving day, though.
CG
That took place last year on Thanksgiving. Look for my picture of one of the dual-moders going to Port Jeff at St. James with 500 on the west end in the picture archives under LIRR of Harry Beck's website. In case you forgot it it is www.nycrail.com.
So sad. Just by skimming through this, it shows how hasty and ridiculous out government can be sometimes.
This is why we post on this subject of TAKE A PHOTO OF A TRAIN GO 2 JAIL / PRISON ............??........!!
I went down to GCT about two nights ago; I was curious to see how was it that an engineer could operate a train from a passenger cab. I went onto one of the platforms where there were some Comets standing by (maybe Mark 3s). Trying not to look suspicious, I peeked into the engineer's station on the last car (the one closest to the platform) and got my answer, seeing the brake handles and throttle (kind of R-142 like) and all. Earlier, I found a website that dealt with cab signalling, and saw how the indications in the engineer's cab were lined up in a row above his/her head, with multiple configurations depending on the type of line the locomotive is on. I was wondering if there was something like this on the Comet cabs, or if the engineer (when operating from the rear) does his/her work visually.
Secondly, I got some books on high speed rail, with examples from Japan, France, Germany, the UK, and US. The book goes into legnth about the so-called "Intercity 125," aka the HST. How would such a consist fare on MNRR, LIRR, and Amtrak. Moreover, what diesels were invented over here that could match the HST, past or present?
While the Metro-North lines are cab signaled, the Englieer must always be looking ahead, especially for STOP signals at interlockings.
Here is a heavily brightened photo of an MNRR shoreliner III cab. The rectangualr pannel on the right hand side of the cab is the speed-o-meter and cab signal display. You will notice 4 while circles around the speed dial w/ a little line pointing toward said dial. These are the cab signal indications for RESTRICTING (20 mph), APPROACH (30 mph), APPROACH MEDIUM (45 mph) and CLEAR (linespeed / 80 mph). On the MNRR Hudson line b/t Croton and Poghkeepsee the linespeed is definitly above 80 so I am unsure if the cab signals actually limit the trains to 80, but I suspect they don't.
Here is a picture of the control stand of a SEPTA Silverliner III MU car w/ vestabule cabs. The Silverliner III uses PRR style cab signal displays (although not the classic display w/ the single row of indications). This picture is lit better.
Finally here is a pic of a Typical Amtrak cab signal display, this time from a former MetroLiner, control cab car. Amtrak's cab signal displays are the nicest of anyone's with a big colourized PL display and digital speed limit readout. A Clear indication reads 120 instead of 80 as 120 is reachable on the NEC.
Thanks!
Is it possible to electrify the entire LIRR? Comments welcome.
I was told this would cost too much money !!
hmmmmm............seems like there is enough DOUGH to go pick on iraq ....
not that the money could not be there.......they sure charge enough on the LIRR .....
Possibly, since there are plans to electrify to Speonk, and Yaphank in the MTA's 20 year plan for the LIRR. Although right now, I can't see this happening with the new diesel equipment. The equipment is getting its bugs worked out to become very reliable equipment.
Oh, I don't know. IMHO, it'll have to happen, if only because the LIRR is going to be stuck when the DE/DM's wear out (and I personally don't think they'll last more than 10 years). New FRA regulations and the comming EPA regulations will mean a whole new diesel design will be needed, and such a diesel will likely be very expensive, and if the EPA gets serious about rail emissions, may be too heavy to include dual mode, since you'll have cats, EGR, and other goodies (that IMHO, should have been there 10 years ago). on the locomotive. Add the dual mode equipment there, any new FRA structural requirements (remember, the existing DE/DMs are too heavy as it is), and it might not really be possible, or cost effective. The EPA regulations could also cripple the performance of any new locomotive in terms of the all important acceleartion issue. if the equipment can't fit into the same 'slot' as an electric (and that was the prime objection to the P-32), then it'll be a big scheduling headache, not to mention cut fleet flexability a lot.
With the system 1/2 electrified, and the vast majority of ridership already electric, there's really no big argument for diesels, especially since most of the East End will need new ties, and a retie project makes adding in third rail cheaper.
sure at 3 milion a mile. for third rail and a substation every two miles.
DC does not transmit well, and also more MU cars would be needed.
Now that you mention it, why can't they use AC for train power?
Because they'd have to convert the system to catenary. AC won't work with a third rail. In any case, the sole advantage of AC is that you can run very high voltages at the pantograph and drop them via a transformer. DC can't work with a transformer.
That's not to say you can't bump the third rail, though likely 1,000 volts is the practical limit.
In any case, there's plenty of traffic on the Port Jefferson branch to warrent it, and a good enough amount to warrant it to Patchauge. Past Ronkonkoma is a lost cause (and will be until the east end gets developed heavily, if ever), and the Oyster Bay line is probbably not even worth running at this point at all (no service, sandwiched between two electric lines, community hates it anyway).
I'd say electrify to PD, Port Jeff, and maybe the OB line to Roslyn, and dump the rest of the OB line. As for the other two stubs, run DMUs.
IMHO, the DE/DM-30 fleet was a big waste of resources. When the economy was good, the LIRR should have been laying third rail down, not buying into a failed dead end technology (dual mode) that has in the end offered diesel territory riders virtually NOTHING.
Its offered them a one seat ride. The GP-38's and MP-15's were a stop gap measure that lasted for like 25 years. The LIRR needed actual passenger diesels and so they bought some. Better than getting GE units.
While I hope the DM/DE30's will finally stop being a headache after repairs they are currently getting. The whole purchase was a disaster. They should have bought proven engines, like the MTA bought for Metro-North (not that I am a big fan of the genesis units, but I feel it would have been better than the DE/DM30 purchase.
And although it made for some great railfanning having passengers pulled by freight engines here on Long Island, you are very right about the GP38-2's and MP15's being a supposed "stop gap" measure when they were bought and lasting for 25 years. The irony of it is that the DM/DE30's won't even last as long as the GP38's, etc lasted here on Long Island.
Not for Port Jeff customers. They're still getting off at Huntington to catch an M1.
Not for Port Jeff customers. They're still getting off at Huntington to catch an M1.
.......or not for Patchouge/Speonk/Montauk passengers still changing in Babylon/Jamaica, or Oyster Bay Riders still changing in Jamaica.........wait a minute, that's the same thing they had to do with the old GP38's and MP15's - not much of a difference.
One or two round trips on each of those lines after 4 years of having new dual-mode trains is pretty pathetic.
IMHO, the DE/DM-30 fleet was a big waste of resources. When the economy was good, the LIRR should have been laying third rail down, not buying into a failed dead end technology (dual mode) that has in the end offered diesel territory riders virtually NOTHING.
I agree with that. Aside from having shiny new trains on the diesel branches, the service is basicallly the same as it was when the old wrecks were running on the diesel branches. WIth all the problems and money that was spent, and only one or two trains going direct to Penn from diesel territory, it wasn't worth the money.
I'd say electrify to PD, Port Jeff, and maybe the OB line to Roslyn, and dump the rest of the OB line. As for the other two stubs, run DMUs.
I don't think it's worth it to electrify to Roslyn (and certainly not to dump the rest of the line). Port Jeff and Patchogue are good options, but even their plan to Yaphank is good. The only reason the mainline between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead has little passengers is because the service is so bad. If they extended electification to Yaphank, Yaphank would be close to the business of Ronkonkoma. In addition, Medford would be a very used station also. There is little vacant land left in Medford. It is just as built up as all the towns nearby. Even Manorville has had considerable new development in the last 10 years. It's time to give that line at least to Riverhead some real service.
Oh, I can see Rosylyn for a few reasons:
It'd be cheap. We're talking maybe a few miles and adding a crossover to turn trains at the end of the line.
It has a large parking lot. It can absorb the extra riders.
It would 'test the waters' to see if extending the rail farther would be worth it.
Sea Cliff will fight third rail tooth and nail, thanks to the idiots at the Colation to 'save' Hempstead Harbor, who have nothing to do but moan about everything, now that the incinerator's been killed.
Electric operation beyond Glen Street or Glen Cove would be pointless in any case. Operation beyond Glen Coe is questionable anyway, since neither Locust Valley nor Oyster Bay enjoys many rider, period. Making an electrification to Glen Cove a two step process would spread the cost out.
Up to Rosyln, the line is pretty straight (I think, it seems it), and could likely support a higher MAS. Close station spacing is a natural for EMUs, though frankly, hilly operation is too.
Between Roslyn and Sea Cliff, there are plenty of places where 60 or even 80mph might be possible, if only high acceleration equipment (i.e., EMU) was available. This would speed up the trip a bit, and right now, it's dreadfuly slow.
The line could be single tracked in a lot of places as a cost saving measure. There's no point to two track operation on the OB line at all, especially with the current level of service.
The line is all high level platform, space for substations would be easy in many places.
Diesel operation of the line will always relegate it to second tier status, as Port Washington is close by and Syosset is close by and mineiola is close by - all electric stations.
Penn capacity is a moot issue - stick the trains in FBA instead, until the the East Side connection is built (if ever).
Without MUs, OB riders will NEVER get direct service to GCT. The C-3s cannot fit, the DM-30's can't, and diesels can't run in those tunnels either. They were designed and built for electric operation.
The population density more than exists for OB electrification. It's a glaring hole in the LIRR that was always intended to be fixed but never was (which is why the Mineola substation is huge compared to every other on the LIRR)
I sugesst Roslyn only as an intermediate step to see if the area really is recptive to electrics, though IMHO, it is, save for the idiots in Sea Cliff and Oyster Bay who like their little choo choo. Screw them, the region's overbuilt anyway, better LIRR service won't do anything but cut traffic at this point.
Good points.
AC won't work with a third rail.
True.
Because they'd have to convert the system to catenary.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of examples of ac/dc and third-rail/catenary multi-system operation.
sure but Dual system MU's are currently quoted at $4 million a piece.
so don't hold your breath. besides the east end of LI would be in court in a heartbeat fighting those catenary poles.
Not to mention, the MN M-2/4/6 cars aren't spectacularly bug free. The big problem with dual system MUs is that nobody really uses tyes that support third rail and kilovolt AC. I think the British have some, but it's hardly a desireable way to go. Maybe with current traction technology it'd be easier, but it'd still be expensive. And surely, the antiquated system the M-2/4/6 cars use would be out of the question - way too complex.
Why can’t you use 600V AC on a third rail (with appropriately-designed trains)? Electrolysis?
John
One reason is that AC in the range of 400 to 660 volts is subject to developing "traveling arcs". A traveling arc is caused by a brief spark contact, and it then travels between the third rail and the ground for a considerable distance, doing much damage. (Traveling arcs are common on industrial bus bar systems).
Once they do Speonk and Yaphank (just short of the Hamptons), there won't be that much LIRR with significant traffic to electrify, 'though I do expect them to extend to Riverhead as the Long Island of farms disappears.
The glaring exceptions would be Port Jeff, where I believe they will resist electrification (class issue, don't 'ya know) and Oyster Bay, which is in a kind of limbo.
Once they do Speonk and Yaphank (just short of the Hamptons), there won't be that much LIRR with significant traffic to electrify, 'though I do expect them to extend to Riverhead as the Long Island of farms disappears.
Evenr if they don't electrify right away, I feel they should increase at least diesel trains to Riverhead to get a normal service there (or at least as many trains as Speonk gets). There is so much new construction in the middle of the island, and one or two trains in each direction doesn't cut it anymore. The areas of Medford, Holtsville, Manorville, and even Riverhead because of the Outlet Center could use a lot more service, and what's great is that the room still exists to build big parking lots for the stations. I feel that they should reopen the Holtsville and Manorville stations, and build a new one at the Tanger Outlet Center in Riverhead (which is right next to the tracks). There should be trains every hour at rush hour and at every 2 to 2 1/2 hours midday between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead.
Evenr if they don't electrify right away, I feel they should increase at least diesel trains to Riverhead to get a normal service there (or at least as many trains as Speonk gets).
I totally agree, dude, but current LIRR-think seems to go that they won't do anything east of Ronk until they're ready to put toegther the Big Enchelada with electric, parking garages, etc. etc.
I think some political pressure from the Suffolk County legislature might help, but there are "other" ways to defeat it if the LIRR doesn't want to do it.
Sure the *can* electrify it...
But those outer lines sure don't have the traffic to justify the expense. Likely enough never will either, unless Mr. Lefrak gets out there and starts building massive apartment complexes....
Elias
Sure the possibility is there. It will cost big bucks, plus a little public opposition. If I recall, not too many Long Islanders are crazy about third rail operations. A young kid was fried on the Babylon Branch in Lynbrook earlier this year. Unless the LIRR can secure their ROW's better, Third Rail expansions may not happen. The public does deserve service improvements, but safety is a factor as well. As for catenary operation, it's not worth installing on the LIRR. Wires can snap easily, especially during those harsh Long Island winters. A snapped wire means no service. Amtrak, NJ Transit, and Metro North face these problems every year. Third rail I find to be more efficient.
"If I recall, not too many Long Islanders are crazy about third rail operations."
Not true. In fact, Long Islanders as a whole understand that third-rail services get them to work in the mornng faster and more conveniently than diesel trains do.
"A young kid was fried on the Babylon Branch in Lynbrook earlier this year."
This will not be a major factor in decisions regarding electrification. It will force LIRR to try to secure ROW better, but don't exaggerate its politica importance.
By the way, there are plenty of grade crossings where one can walk right on to the ROW next to a third rail. Not too many people seem to die (as pedestrians) from it.
You are correct in that LIRR will not be using catenary anytime soon (and shouldn't).
Interestingly, I've seen cars make right turns onto LIRR tracks a few times. Some guy with a BMW tried this trick by Woodmere the other day and found out his Ultimate Driving Machine (tm) was also very good at conducting electricity...
Then again, BMW drivers can't, in general.
As for catenary? Not in the near future, but if traffic rises enough 20 - 30 years from now, they may have no choice. IIRC, the Netherlands are dumping their 1.5kv system for 25kv because traffic has become so heavy that their current system can't handle the loads. Not common, but not unheard of.
"near future, but if traffic rises enough 20 - 30 years from now, they may have no choice. IIRC, the Netherlands are dumping their 1.5kv system for 25kv because traffic has become so heavy that their current system can't handle the loads. Not common, but not unheard of."
Can you elaborate on how capacity could max out a third rail? Right now the 4 tracks going into GCT and the 4 from LI into Penn are pretty near max capacity in the rush hours, and it seems to work just fine.
More trains, longer trains, higher acceleration, higher speeds, higher weight. Like I said, it's not common to convert power sysdtems, but it DOES happen.
The brainiacs who designed the M-7 didn't remember why the hell Budd made the M-1 so light - third rail is one of the most constricted power systems (second only to 600V DC overhead) out there. You simply hit it's limits. At high currents, such mundane things like third rail gaps and arcing caused by them and other reasons can become big issues. I believe the DM-30 has logic in it to reduce power right before a gap to cut arcing, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the M-7s do too. You can't bump the voltage (though going to 1kv DC would drop the current draw a bit) too much. Thus, you have the limit current draw. To do that, you have to limit horsepower. To do that, and retain performance, you have to limit weight.
Kilovolt AC is much different, as the current draw is very low (I believe an ALP-46 at full power is only 250 amps on the 25kv system). The high voltage makes up for this - the wattage drawn by the locomotive is litterally a product of the voltage times the amperage (to get a close approcimation on an electric, add the HEP load to the continuous rating in Kw). Less volts means more amps. More volts means less. And it's the amps that are the problem.
If the DM30 powers down, is this action somewhat similar to the "phase-gap" method on NJT's M and E Division?
Not really. The powerdown is automagic. I know Asea was playing with such a system on the FL-9 rebuilds, and it was slick - as the first third rail shoe on the loco came off the rail, the locomotive killed it's power, and thus load on the third rail. Note that the rear shoe is still on the rail, so you wouldn't get an arc here (since it'll take the load as the first comes o)ff. With the loco drawing no power, there's no arc as the second shoe comes off the rail.
In a phase break, the engineer has to initiate the power reduction, with the method Asea (ABB at the time) used on the FL-9s, there was nothing that needed to be done. I've noticed that the DM-30 doesn't arc either, so maybe Siemens figured it out, too. For extra points, one could calculate the speed of the loco and keep track of distance traveled so that the loco actually drops the load a few feet before the second shoe comes off...
I have to correct you,I have seen the DM-30s produce a TREMENDOUS ripping arc both leaving and entering the third rail gaps,at Mineola and New Hyde Park.The arc the DM-30s produce(especially with the longer trains)dwarfs any arc I have ever seen a M-1 or M-3 produce.This is not to say that the M-1s or M-3s dont arc,in fact,they arc more frequently that the DM-30s,But if one measures the intensity of the arc,The DM_30 wins hands down.
I like cable stayed bridges. I wish we could get one in NYC.
That said, I'm saddened to read that the Big Diggers have taken a page from Robert Moses' playbook and will ban scurvy pedestrians from the new Bunker Hill Bridge.
So how will pedestrians get from the North End to Charlestown? Will the rickety Charlestown bridge remain in place?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not sure what this has to do with rail, but yes, the Charlestown bridge remains in place.
The Bunker Hill Bridge is part of I-93, and exclusive to motor vehicles.
OK, here's how to stay on topic: To get from the North End to Charlestown, take the Orange Line from Haymarket north two stops.
Faithfully yours from Bankok!
Pedestrians are also allowed to walk across the Charles River dam and locks, just to the east of North Station (by the MBTA Lovejoy Wharf inner harbor ferry dock).
>>>I'm not sure what this has to do with rail<<
It's a lot closer than some of the stuff I've seen in here lately!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Looking better than they did wearing LIRR paint.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/llpx2252ard.jpg
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, thanks for posting that! It's good to see my old friends in their new looks. Know of any others - or the F's? Well here they are in their former life (the only photos I have of either of them, so they will have to do).
Oh, wait a minute. These are better. I don't really like "roster shots" anyway, and should have looked in the action shots before I looked in my roster shots.
GP38-2 #255
GP38-2 #273
What's the location of those two action shots?
The first one with GP38-2 #255 is in Patchogue (West Ave crossing, just west of the station) taken in 1993, and the one with #273 is in Sayville, also just west of the station (by the Sayville Team Yard) taken in 1994.
BTW the roster ones were in the yard just west of the Port Jefferson station (also taken a year apart in 1993 and 1994).
Chris, and Bill, I love the pictures of them all. I thought the headlights were relocated to the nose. Well, the new looks of 273 and 255 in LLPX look very good to say the least. Lets hope if NYA wants to lease them, or buy them, they will look good then.
Lets hope if NYA wants to lease them, or buy them, they will look good then.
It would be interesting if they came back to Long Island. BTW, where was the photo of the now LLPX engines taken?
>>It would be interesting if they came back to Long Island. BTW, where was the photo of the now LLPX engines taken?<<
Photo is listed as St. Lawrence & Atlantic Loco Facility, Lewiston Jct ME - May 01
Bill "Newkirk"
Has anyone verified the builder's serial numbers on these units?
The reason I ask is....the photo shows a unit with dynamic brakes, the front pilot area is VASTLY different than LIRR's GP38's.
The slanted air filter box top is NOT necessarily an LIRR spotting feature, though they "invented" it (and EMD put it on many GP38-2's after all LIRR's were refitted). The front marker lights, though blanked, are totally different that LIRR's. The ones on LLPX 2252 stick out; LIRR's were slightly recessed, though they faced forward.
The steps at the corner of the locomotive are totally different that LIRR's units had too. And, I know, picky-picky-picky, but the air tank above the fuel tank is in a different position.
The LIRR unit I looked at was the 252 just to be sure, a left-front 3/4 roster shot in my collection.
I'm really doubtful this LLPX 2252 is a former LIRR unit....unless someone can supply the builder serial number to confirm it.
>>The reason I ask is....the photo shows a unit with dynamic brakes, the front pilot area is VASTLY different than LIRR's GP38's.<<
The photo and following posts were from the LIRR forum at Railroad.net. May not be the proof you need, but hope it helps. Bill "Newkirk"
I finally found a photo of the old GP-38's 273 and 255. The locos look different for sure. # 2252 is the 273 and 2238 is the #255. Photo is listed as St. Lawrence & Atlantic Loco Facility, Lewiston Jct ME - May 01
THE 273 I SEE LOOKS GOOD YOU CAN STILL SEE WHERE THE OLD MARKER LIGHTS WERE THE 272-277 HAD THOSE BULGING MARKER LIGHTS.WHAT A DIFFERENCE.WELL THEY LOOK GOOD .NICE PICTURE:-)
Yes Locomotive Leasing Partners had all the traded in GP38-2's equipped with Dynamic Brake. and overhauled Mechanicaly.
Okay on the marker lights -- checked my photos and there was a definite difference in the 250-271 and 272-277 series. The early bunch had recessed fixtures; the latter bunch did have ones that match the LLPX unit. For some reason my mind clicked on "2252" being ex-LIRR 252....
I guess they must have gone through some great paints to add all the eletrical circuitry for the dynamic brakes, chaing the pilots and steps, etc.
I was on this car today on the C train from 59-34St. and the interior looked more like an R38 than an R32,what happened with this car? I never seen this before.
It's one of only 10 R-32 cars overhauled by GE. GE wound up
overhauling the entire R-38 fleet but MK did the remainder of
the 32s. The GE R-32s wound up resembling the R38s mechanically
so they are mixed with that fleet but never run with MK R32s.
"The GE R-32s wound up resembling the R38s mechanically
so they are mixed with that fleet but never run with MK R32s."
That is absolutely not true. The 10 GE R32's are always mixed with BOTH MK rebuilt R32s and the R38s.
Also, the 10 GE rebuilt R32s are as follows:
3594-95, 3880-81, 3892-93, 3934 thru 3937.
"The 10 GE R32's are always mixed with BOTH MK rebuilt R32s and the R38s."
That's also not quite true. Those cars are never run with MK R-32s or R-38s from June to September.
I thought the HVAC on those cars was fixed or replaced.
Yes, I saw some of them this summer; they apparently had solved the problems with the compressor cradles - AND - they put #3934-5 back on the road, it had been somewhat cannibalized, apparently not enough to keep it down permanently.
wayne
No, it is true, this year, all 10 GE R32s were running in mixed consists with both R38 and MK R32s throughout the entire summer. I have seen them just about everyday, and have ridden them on two occasions.
Don't you know? I thought you were the one who said you knew ten times more than all of us put together.
Oh boy - get out the fire hoses.
Listen smartass! If I had known about it ages ago,I wouldn't have said diddly squat about it but obviously I never seen #3594 or don't recall ever being in it that's why I asked! It struck me as very peculiar.And one more cockeyed remark outta ya tough guy wannabe,and I'll make sure each day is a living hell for you.Look at me and I may be sweet and beautiful,but mess with me and you got yourself a one way ticket to hell.
I think you rode on a GE-GOH'd R-32. There were 10 R-32s that were GOH'd by GE.
#3 West End Jeff
I thought these cars were permanently out of service??
Nope, they're alive and well, all ten of them.
wayne
This car, along with 9 others were rebuilt by GE, which also rebuilt the R38's. The way it was rebuilt, it does look more like a R38 inside but on the outside, you can clearly see that the 2 are different.
The GE rebuilds R32's and R38's:
R32--> 3594-3595, 3880-3881, 3892-3893, 3934-3935 snd 3936-3937(10)
R38--> 3950-3989, 3992-3999, 4002-4149(196)
Hope this helps.
I just rode on the trolley charter at the Electrc City Trolley Museum today. The mile long tunnel is wild! Can you imagine how cool it would be to run subway cars through there???? I was hogging the trolley's railfan window and it almost felt as if I was in a subway. There are curves at both ends of the tunnel, so when you are on the long straight stretch, you can't see light at either end, just like a real subway tunnel. Plus, the tunnel is on a good grade. Going south is uphill and the trolley got up to just under 40mph. Going north, which is downhill, he could have shot way past 50mph if he wanted. There's plenty of track to get a set of redbirds up to track speed. Do it for me, please! I've lived to see trolleys running through that tunnel once again. Now I hope to live to see redbirds running through there. It would be AWESOME! I will post photos soon (I have an 8am class and an exam so no photos online till later)
--Brian
Maybe next month's Redbird fantrip can take a little detour.
Have fun on the exam.
Does anyone know if the TA will ever consider extending the or doing anything past the Bulkhead after Euclid ave, I also heard that beyond this bulkhead there is a station that was for the second system of the IND. But the TA has kept this under wraps. There hasnt been much talk with I think this subject is a taboo with the TA. Is there a story about this Pitkin Ave line.
I also wonder about the bulkhead outside of the bedford-Nostrand Ave station of the G was that supposed to go somewhere.
Both were part of the IND Second System. you can find what you need to know concerning those 2 routes here and on the JO-KORNER SITE[NYC SUBWAY SYSTEM]
Di I hear someone implying there was a station at 76 Street?
LOL.....Oh man, here we go again.
Downtown Express was asking about bulkheads past Euclid Ave.
Love 9400 said it was part of the IND Second System.
I was wondering if maybe somebody else knew about it?
I know, I was only joking. Truthfully, I wouldn't mind if it was confirmed either way also.
76th Street was actually a part of the IND Third System. It was to be a super express to Roswell, NM and Area 51 via the Bayonne wormhole.
And I hear Elvis visited the station in the 1980's.
NOOOOOOOO! Not this issue again. I do not think anything is there ALTHOUGH there is a track that comes from behind Grant Av. I forgot where that came from. Someone refresh my memory.
I'd do it. HoweverI'm busy doing other things tonight. But since DowntownExpress and Love9400 brought it up again I'll let them talk about it.
That's the Pitkin Yard lead, AFAIK.
2 tracks go to Pitkin Yard.
2 tracks go to Grant Ave.
4 tracks keep on going.
Yeah. Here's all the proof you need.
Yeah, that was a very well done April Fool's joke done by Joe Brennan.
By the way, there's a small inconsistency in the joke. The alleged track map shows 76th Street as having only side platforms but in the "photo" it looks like the train is pulling into a station with an island platform.
It was a well done joke. I think when that thread was going on, someone came up with the exact photo (unaltered) showing that it was really taken at 7th Ave, I believe.
And heeeeeeeere it is:
Not really -- while the original photo is clearly of an island platform, Joe Brennan lopped off the wall and the opposite track.
When I first saw the photo back in April, it had me fooled. It is hard to tell that is an island platform from the altered photo. It wasn't till the real photo was posted that I realized that it was not a side platform. He did a good job on disguising it (he even took the grafitti off the train). The pillars are a bit far from the edge for a side platform, but other than that there was no way for anyone to know.
One other giveaway is the flourescent light fixture - in any of the post-WWII stations, (with the exception of Bway-ENY, since it was built earlier), they use two skinny flourescent tubes instead of one fat one. I.E. Euclid, 179th St, Liberty etc.
wayne
I was actually snookered into it until I saw the R10 with the blue stripe/silver 1970's paintjob. Back in 1948 they were grey & orange. But even after, I found it hard to believe someone would go through such effort to make a gag look that convincing.
That's what got me thinking it was all a joke. Not to mention the doctored graphics on the lead motor's end signs.
A lot of us fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
Does anyone want to tell DowntownExpress and Love9400 about it?
You know what, though? I was able to tell it was an island platform even after Joe's lopping.
I was tipped off by the amount of space between the pillars and the edge of the platform. Almost every IND side platform I've seen has very little space, maybe a foot to 18 inches, between the pillars and the platform edge. I used to use the Sutphin Blvd station on the F, which had side platforms and I clearly recall there being very little room between the pillars and edge. The doctored photo clearly shows a lot of space between the pillars and edge, suggesting an island platform.
Some local stops have no platform pillars at all.
I think this subject is a taboo with the TA.
I think the TA (sadly) hasn't got enough dough.
Perhaps you should write them a letter suggesting they employ Arthur Anderson...
Now do you really think if they employ Arthur Andersen to audit their books, it will become another Enron? Then the fare will be jacked up to $3.
I also wonder about the bulkhead outside of the Bedford-Nostrand Ave station of the G was that supposed to go somewhere.
Once you mention "76th Street Station", anything else you mention in a post gets lost. Any thread with that name in it usually takes on a life of it's own. I missed this part of your post the first time, so I hope this answers that part of your question.
Anyway, the "express" track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G (and I believe there is space at Classon Ave also) was meant to be a separate line, not an “express” track, like it seems to be. After Bedford-Nostrand going Queens-bound there was supposed to have been a line continuing down Lafayette Street, and Bedford-Nostrand was supposed to have been the transfer point. The extension along Lafayette Avenue would have turned a bit at Stanhope Street and joined the Myrtle Ave-Central Ave Line (Central Ave in Glendale – not the Brooklyn Central Ave) to form a four-track line. Classon Avenue was to have had a turning track. All this was to be built as part of the IND Second System, which would have made the subway map look much different than it does today.
I think the Lafayette Ave Line was to have 2 tracks after leaving Bedford. The single express track was to have split into 2 and joined with the 2 local tracks at Bedford. Before the local route turns and gone up to Myrtle/Willoughby.
I don't fully understand why there is only space for one track at Bedford-Nostrand, instead of the normal "Express-style" station. Was Bedford supposed to have been the terminal for the Lafayette/Myrtle/Central line? If that Lafayette line was supposed to be a through line while the current G was supposed to also run through like it does now, it puzzles me why it's not set up as a four track station instead of a three track station.
Maybe Lafayette wasn't wide enough for 4 tracks.
I think Bedford was to be a transfer point. Not a terminal. Maybe the 3rd track was installed at Bedford for short line turning purposes. If something happened along the line where the trains had to be turned, it could be done there without fouling up the rest of the line.
Maybe as an off-peak terminal.
Probably. Just like the upper level at Roosevelt Ave.
Maybe as an off-peak terminal.
That is probably it. That makes sense. Bedford was probably to have been an off-peak terminal, similar to the way the M trains terminate on the Center track at Myrtle-Broadway, when it runs shuttle late nights, and weekends.
When do you think the TA is going to explore the possiblity of extending the 2 Line all the way to the sea as they say and the 3 to JFK airport therefore making a true subway instead the Death Train in which the TA could have used those $$$ to upgrade and extend serveral line for less.
I think it time for some expansions in all of the systems.
[...instead the Death Train in which the TA could have used those $$$ to upgrade and extend serveral line for less.]
Please get your facts right.
All SubTalkers, including "DowntownExpress," are well aware that the AirTrain funded by a Passenger Facility Charge assessed on all flights into and out of JFK Airport. (Hello - that's been public knowledge for years.) It's an extension of the airport. Period. There's no MTA or NYCT involvement in either the funding or the construction.
If the 3 were to be extended to JFK airport, it would make for a very long ride to Manhattan, with all the stops that the 3 already makes in Brooklyn. I don't know how much ridership it would get. The 2 going all the way to Sheepshead Bay might also have a similar problem, unless some sort of express service were to be provided.
No One woould take the 2 if it were exteneded to sheepshead bay. May people near the 2 already take a bus over to the Q which is far quicker ride
When do you think the TA is going to explore the possiblity of extending the 2 Line all the way to the sea as they say and the 3 to JFK airport therefore making a true subway instead the Death Train in which the TA could have used those $$$ to upgrade and extend serveral line for less.
I think its time for some expansions in all of the systems.
I quite agree with your ideas for expansions of the system. But an EXTENSION of the Nostrand Avenue Line is a no-go-dead-horse as well it should be.
With an expansion of the system, you must keep in mind that ALL PRESENT LINES are running to capacity, there is not room for more trains. The crossings are clogged and the trunks running at capacity.
Any New Extrensions will need to have new crossings and new trunks.
Enter my plan (since you were interested in Nostrand Avenue) for a Washington-23rd Street Subway.
In creating this I would make a LOOP to finish the present Nostrand Avenue Line, to relieve the terminal congestion, but the extended services are provided by the new subway.
Elias
Solid concrete risers? Where's your sense of Brooklyn history! For certain, this elevated structure must be of the box-girder variety, with its stations built as if they were part of Contract III, complete with those cast-iron platform lamps (like they have at Myrtle and Sheepshead Bay). :o) Otherwise it's an idea worth looking into, if someone's got about $15,000,000,000.
wayne
Too bad they chopped down that money tree at the World's Fair.:)
Forgive me, but I don't get the relevence of the World's Fair into this. Which ones, anyway? The 1939 one or is the ones that spanned 1964 - 196??
Where's your sense of Brooklyn history!
It got shoved aside by NIMBYs who objected to the noise.
This kind of construction would go up faster, and run very quietly.
We *can* put gooseneck lighting on the platforms. Right by the ELEVATORS!
Elias
I mentioned at an MTA Community Meeting last year an idea to extend the #3 train a mere 1/2 south of it's present New Lots Avenue terminal. Flatlands Avenue would be the new terminal station. This would allow for the current Gateway Center Mall AND the planned neighborhood of Spring Creek to be served from a direct Rapid Transit route to/from Manhattan and the rest of the city. As it stands now, there are NO plans to serve Spring Creek with a rail line or extentions of present bus routes.
Of course the plan would mean the #3 would need a 'bypass track' through the lines' current yard above Linden Blvd.
I'm surprised there's never been more discussion of exending the Livonia Ave. IRT beyond New Lots and into Queens. If not to JFK, then into southeastern Queens, which is starving for rail service.
Perhaps the current IRT's capacity cannot handle the additional passanger load.
I'm surprised there's never been more discussion of exending the Livonia Ave. IRT beyond New Lots and into Queens. If not to JFK, then into southeastern Queens, which is starving for rail service.
It's always on my list of desired subway expansions.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, the el currently terminates in a silly area.
Just blocks from the Queens line too. And areas you know would use the line.
:-) Andrew
I like your idea, and I commend you heartily for attending the community meeting and suggesting it. Did you write to your local elected officials too?
Thanks for getting involved.
No, didn't take it to the elected officials, but if nothing is done about extending the bus routes to the mall by spring I might have to do alittle 'sabre-rattling' in that area...
Appreciate your comments...thanx
Keep it up!
and the 3 to JFK airport therefore making a true subway instead the Death Train in which the TA could have used those $$$ to upgrade and extend serveral line for less.
You have to remember that the AirTrain was NOT funded by the TA, so the "TA" couldn't have used the money elsewhere, as it wasn't for the TA to spend anyway.
Yes, you can blame the Port Authority for that goof-up.
I agree but you cannot extend lines lie the WPR and Jerome lines unless for some reason it goes to Westcehster[don't count on it]. I'm going to go past
Lines:
1/9: Fine
2: Extend south via Flatbush or Nostrand Av
3: Extend east to JFK and extend to 155 St in Manhattan and I would lengthen 145 St to a 10 car station
4: Fine
5: Same as 2
6: Extend to Co-op City in the north, some 6's to South Ferry on the south after a full upgrade of SF
7: Extend to eastern Queens
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I'd take the (2) and (5) a step further than the end of Brooklyn. I'd take them to the Rockaways, via a modern elevated structure next to the Marine Pkwy Bridge, maybe then extending it east to meet the Rock Park line at B. 116 St.
:-) Andrew
Not a bad idea. However, if you do that, the line would either have to be:
a) 2 track line with new skip stop service
b) 3 track line withthe 5 running express in the peak direction
c) 4 track line with 5's running in both directions and this could bring weekend 5 service in Brooklyn
But don't count on this scenario. A extension of the 2/5 would be best if it went to Kings Plaza, if via Flatbush or to Sheepshead Bay if if it continues via Nostrand
But you could extend the /S from B116 to Beach 147 St or slightly further to Jacob Riis Park and this would be cheaper than a 2/5 extension and plus the lines would become TOO LONG.
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The B116 line is a shuttle most of the time anyway. How about turning it into LIGHT RAIL and extending it to Brooklyn where crosstown service can be provided?
Speaking of the Beach 116 part of the Rockaway line, I've seen an old map of the LIRR that showed the line running to about where Jacob Riis Park is with a station there called "Rockaway Beach" and another station in Belle Harbour. All the other stations that are there presently were also there: Rockaway Park, Seaside, Steeple Chase, Holland, etc. I guess they abandoned the part west of Beach 116th street when they ended surface running and built the viaduct? Or did the trains come off the viaduct (like they do in Rockaway Park anyway) and then continue on the surface through Belle Harbour to "Rockaway Beach".
Maybe the LIRR at one time had service going to Riis Park and Belle Harbour. But that was a long time ago. More recently, I believe the LIRR had a loop at their B116 St. Station. When I look at their outdoor mezzazine there is a curve to it. The last 45 years since the IND took it over, it has been filled in a bit. But the basic curve is still there. Anyone notice?
The people of Belle Harbour and Neponsit would not stand for any light rail or even subway extention tru their community to get to Riis Park. They would rather tolerate the buses.
Yet they'd probably complain how long it takes them to commute to/from Manhattan.
And how long does it take now lol. Seeing that the is 20 minutes & there are only 5 of them[which people have to time] and the shuttle[which is a joke] and don't get me started on the buses.....
3: Extend east to JFK and extend to 155 St in Manhattan and I would lengthen 145 St to a 10 car station
An even more useful extension would be beyond 155th st over the Harlem River, through the old El Tunnel (if it still exists), then onto the Jerome Av Line.
The Eastern End is difficult to do anything with without spending mega-bucks, so here is a ridiculous mega-bucks scenario:
(i) extend the 3 line via New Lots Av, Dumont Av, Euclid Av, Liberty Av, convert the Euclid (A) line to IRT, then extend further along Liberty Av to Merrick Bvd.
(ii) connect the now isolated Rockaway Line via the former Rockaway Line then a second level (El or Subway) along the LIRR ROW then into the 63rd St tube to join the (Q) Line.
(iii) extend the Fulton St Express (A) East to JFK under (or over) Pitkin Av, Conduit Av.
2: Extend south via Flatbush or Nostrand Av
5: Same as 2
Both really could do with grade separation at Rogers Junction. A Nostrand Av line would be a cool idea.
6: Extend to Co-op City in the north, some 6's to South Ferry on the south after a full upgrade of SF
A long loop around Co-op City with several stations would be a neat solution (Line 7bis in Paris anyone?).
SF has the problem of line capacity between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green. It is slightly annoying that the 1 and 6 trains don't make it to Brooklyn - a Brooklyn IRT Second System might be a fun idea!
7: Extend to eastern Queens
The 7 Line has both the greatest and the lest potential for doing anything to it. It being so isolated means that any major change won't affect anything else, but it being so packed to capacity means that extension is a bit of a problem.
A clever-ish solution might be a conversion to metre gauge with trains about 6ft wide not 9ft - this would allow a 4-tracking of the line in Queens. If two tracks could be diverted at QBP, say over the Queensboro Bridge or something, then twice as many trains could run, making a 33% increase in capacity once width considerations are built in. That would leave theoretical room for expansion. In reality, this would cost so much, expansion would no longer be on the cards, but hey...
An even more useful extension would be beyond 155th st over the Harlem River, through the old El Tunnel (if it still exists), then onto the Jerome Av Line.
This was actually a plan on the books in 1939.
(i) extend the 3 line via New Lots Av, Dumont Av, Euclid Av, Liberty Av, convert the Euclid (A) line to IRT, then extend further along Liberty Av to Merrick Bvd.
Question: Why would you put passengers on the shorter IRT trains that are already running at capacity and take them off the (A) line which could actually handle the expansion?
(ii) connect the now isolated Rockaway Line via the former Rockaway Line then a second level (El or Subway) along the LIRR ROW then into the 63rd St tube to join the (Q) Line.
I've always wanted to restore service on the old rockaway branch. I'd route Rockaway Pk. trains across that line, and then send them into manhattan via Queens Blvd. I'd probably send the "E" train through this line though, and extend R trains to Jamaica Center.
(iii) extend the Fulton St Express (A) East to JFK under (or over) Pitkin Av, Conduit Av.
You could just create a turn-off at Howard Beach.
Question: Why would you put passengers on the shorter IRT trains that are already running at capacity and take them off the (A) line which could actually handle the expansion?
To take away the (A) trains to run them via the phantom 76/Pitkin to JFK - yes, have a subway train run fast. The other reason is to have lines crossing over and providing some quite neat transfers: Euclid/Pitkin, 104th or Rockaway to a new Liberty Av station on the Rockaway Line, and Jamaica - Sutphin with the LIRR and with the Archer Av subway -- in effect the next best thing to a ring line. Okay, I admit it looks odd, but also remember that the shorter slimmer trains provide better service as far as the passenger is concerned because they have to come more frequently :D
I'd probably send the "E" train through this line though, and extend R trains to Jamaica Center.
Can you imagine the folks from Nassau and Suffolk whining that they now had a choice between the Eastern Division and the (R) Local... This probably shows a need for an extra express or "semi-express" line West of Continental.
You could just create a turn-off at Howard Beach.
I know, but if we're spending bankrupting sums of money, we might as well go the whole hog and build the best thing possible...
Can you imagine the folks from Nassau and Suffolk whining that they now had a choice between the Eastern Division and the (R) Local... This probably shows a need for an extra express or "semi-express" line West of Continental.
You could split the QB express into 3 parts. Extend the Q and run that via 63rd to Jamaica Center (express). Then the E to Rockaway Pk, via abandoned LIRR rockaway branch and F to Hillside. Each line could have 10tph.
I'd advocate sending the R along that line too. I don't think that the "E" alone could handle it.
>>"You could split the QB express into 3 parts. Extend the Q and run that via 63rd to Jamaica Center (express). Then the E to Rockaway Pk, via abandoned LIRR rockaway branch and F to Hillside. Each line could have 10tph.
I'd advocate sending the R along that line too. I don't think that the "E" alone could handle it."<<
Not a bad plan but I think E's could handle going to the Rockaways, but due to the car shortage right now it won't be possible. In fact the E went to the Rockaways until 1976 but it was via Fulton St and A's were local until 1973, when the Fulton services flip-flopped. And where would you branch the E off from, the turnoff at 63 Dr/Rego Park? If it is that, it would complete that never built proposal. Well, first off Jamaica Center is not the real terminal for the Archer subway on both levels. I would extend the lines although I think the Rockaway Park plan would be finished faster so I would do that first.
And where would you branch the E off from, the turnoff at 63 Dr/Rego Park? If it is that, it would complete that never built proposal.
Yup, and the R too. I think that one local service could handle the few stops between there and 71st.
Also, with this plan, the G could be extended, because the R would be 'out of the way'.
That's true and assuming the R160's came, the G could go back to a full train length. If you move the E AND the R, the V would have to go to 179 and the Q would be extended as well or a new line would have to be created. I'm not so sure you should move the R, I'd rather create a new line to follow the E and send R's to Jamaica Center.
This is what I would do if E's were moved:
E: express, then moved off QB after 63 Dr but special E's to 179 remain
F: express to 179 St
G: returns to 71 Av 24/7
Q: express to 179 St weekdays[or if demand is high weekends as well]
R: runs to Jamaica Center, with increased service so its infamous name of Rarely could be dropped ;-)
V: local to 179 St
New line: I'd activate lower level of City Hall and would run via Broadway local to the Rockaways with the E
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Let's keep in mind that you have constraints here. The Express and local tracks can really carry only 30tph, and that's pushing it.
This is what I would do if E's were moved:
E: express, then moved off QB after 63 Dr but special E's to 179 remain
F: express to 179 St
G: returns to 71 Av 24/7
Q: express to 179 St weekdays[or if demand is high weekends as well]
R: runs to Jamaica Center, with increased service so its infamous name of Rarely could be dropped ;-)
V: local to 179 St
New line: I'd activate lower level of City Hall and would run via Broadway local to the Rockaways with the E
See, first off, the three expresses would have to be split up to 10tph for each line. So, you can get rid of those "extra" E trains to 179th. Then, you have to factor in loss of Express service at Jamaica Center, which is the only reason that you'd extend the Q as an express. 179th st does not need 3 trains headed to it (more than 20 tph). Broadway does NOT need 3 services to Queens Blvd. And lastly, the 'new line' could be turned at Whitehall. At the very worst, it would be turned at Canal, but they definately would not open up City Hall LL.
The E runs to the Rockaway Branch because people would want a train that runs express (it should run exp along the LIRR rockaway ROW if possible, and terminate at Rockaway Pk, so that this branch gets some type of service.) The R should be extended there in order for some direct local service to encourage use of local trains (if expresses are crammed now...). Jamaica Center wants exp. service, so you send the Q there. V trains could be sent to either 179th of 71st, whatever is your fancy. Realistically, the Hillside express would not be restored under this program.
The expresses still run 30tph through Roosevelt Av, and that's generally what you want. But with the extra passengers coming off that branch, you'd need people to stay on the locals, or else you're in big trouble.
Yes, I see what you're saying. How about the Q AND R going to Jamaica Center & there's enough space and time to load trains and depart plus you would have a local & express via QB. It would possibly free up some E's if it went non-stop until Howard Beach and it MAY NOT, I repeat MAY not need as much trains as it does now & it could provide a alternative to riding the A through Brooklyn & Queens. The new line would encourage local service to the Rockaway or absorb the shuttle into this 'new line' and extend it to Manhattan, officially it would no longer be a shuttle, of course.
But wait, what would you do with the 's and how would it terminate if the E & the new line is already terminating there & I don't think its possible to build a new platform and even though the platform is extra wide, it may not be possible to carve a 3rd track in the middle[but you never know].
How about the Q AND R going to Jamaica Center & there's enough space and time to load trains and depart plus you would have a local & express via QB.
That could be done now, but it isn't because it would be a big waste. No one is gonna ride the local, and you are still paying to run it.
But wait, what would you do with the[< A >] 's and how would it terminate if the E & the new line is already terminating there & I don't think its possible to build a new platform and even though the platform is extra wide, it may not be possible to carve a 3rd track in the middle[but you never know].
Get rid of these A trains entirely. Since these people now have a DIRECT route to midtown, then you don't need the A rush hour specials.
>>"Get rid of these A trains entirely. Since these people now have a DIRECT route to midtown, then you don't need the A rush hour specials."<<
I'm not so sure that would be a good idea, I'm mixed on that one but its your opinion. While the 20 minute intervals has made its attractiveness dwindle somewhat, those trains are actually pretty crowded to Rockaway Park [I caught it a few times since I was curious to ride it] since they don't have to transfer for that silly shuttle.
But the other train would not be a shuttle, it would be a full service train, with a link to manhattan. Of course the A will be crowded when it's going to be the only train that actually goes to manhattan.
Plus, the E would be operating every 6 minutes.
I know, I would 'extend' the current Rockaway shuttle and convert it into a full subway line, I forgot in which topic I said that in b/c we responding to each other so quickly LOL. Damn, if we create all these new lines, I wonder if we would have to go back to double letters ;-).
I believe a Q extension on QB is possible if everything is planned right. Well if the E operates every 6 minutes daily, including all day weekdays, it is definitely possible to bring the Q, since it runs no more than 10tph at all times so there would be no need for the special E's, probably.
So it could be like this:
E:10tph(your suggestion)
F:12tph
Q:no more than 10tph
about 30-32 tph...thats good to me
You may not realize this, but at its north terminus, the 3 is pointing directly west along 149th Street, less than a full flight below street level, with a yard to its immediate north. It would have to make a very sharp right turn to continue further north.
The el crossed the Harlem River on a bridge.
As for the Flushing line, it's crowded but it's not as packed as everyone thinks it is. See this post: the outbound 7 peaks at "only" 73.8 passengers per car, while the 1/9 gets 125.3, the 2/3 gets 90.9, the 4/5 gets 121.7, and the 6 gets 139.2. (1996 statistics)
You may not realize this, but at its north terminus, the 3 is pointing directly west along 149th Street, less than a full flight below street level, with a yard to its immediate north. It would have to make a very sharp right turn to continue further north.
It would become a pretty nasty "S" curve there, it it was to continue north (of course with the station in the middle). Actually
Lenox terminal was built right into the yard, which makes it kind of a wierd station.
As for the Flushing line, it's crowded but it's not as packed as everyone thinks it is. See this post: the outbound 7 peaks at "only" 73.8 passengers per car, while the 1/9 gets 125.3, the 2/3 gets 90.9, the 4/5 gets 121.7, and the 6 gets 139.2. (1996 statistics)
Wow, I never realized that. I always knew the 6 was painfully crowded, but I always assumed the 7 was worse!
Actually, those statistics show how packed the West Side line is also. Even though they are basicaly less than Lexington (or at least the locals), it is high considering the 8th Ave/CPW line also on the West side. Of course the Lexington is busier because it's the only line there, but if there was a 2nd Ave subway on the East side, the West Side line would no doubt be the busiest line in Manhattan.
What surprised me when I computed those stats was that the 1/9 was second only to the 6 -- moreso than the 4/5, the 2/3, and the 7.
OTOH, I'm not sure how accurate those stats are. I think (but I'm not sure) the sample size may be 1, so a small fluke like an event at Lincoln Center or a missing digit would seriously skew the results. If you look at the numbers I posted for the 6, on the day the passengers were counted, only two 6 trains went NB through 59th Street between 3 and 4. Also, I don't know how the counters deal with reroutes, like a 5 on the West Side or a local bypassing local stops. And, of course, 1996 was a long time ago, and a lot has changed, both in ridership and in service.
Maybe if the Lenox line runs along the east side of Lenox yard and alongside the FDR (probably as an el or embankment) It might get up to a point where it could cross the water in the area that the 9th Ave El did.
at its north terminus, the 3 is pointing directly west along 149th Street, less than a full flight below street level
Any extension would require the so-called 148/Lenox (please guys lets not start that one again) to be abandoned. This might allow a sensible length 145/Lenox and if it's so close to street level the perfect solution - an Elevated 155/7. Then hold on tight... big curve over the Harlem River and into da Bronx!
IMHO If the #3 line was to head for 155 St area, it would have to leave the Lenox line as soon as it leaves 145 St. Instead of making the left hand turn to get into 148, it would make a slight right hand turn. Go to the outside of Lenox Terminal and travel roughly between the FDR and the Yard uptown then make the right hand turn around 155 St to go across the water there.
at its north terminus, the 3 is pointing directly west along 149th Street, less than a full flight below street level
Any extension would require the so-called 148/Lenox (please guys lets not start that one again) to be abandoned. This might allow a sensible length 145/Lenox and if it's so close to street level the perfect solution - an Elevated 155/7. Then hold on tight... big curve over the Harlem River and into da Bronx! Yes, I am calling for a major rejig of Lenox Yard...
It would have to make a very sharp right turn to continue further north.
Surely no worse than some of the Eastern Division's curves...
As for the Flushing line, it's crowded but it's not as packed as everyone thinks it is. See this post: the outbound 7 peaks at "only" 73.8 passengers per car
Very interesting! Then the Flushing Line could certainly do with extending!
If any IRT line was to get extended/expanded, a 7 extension would definitely be the easiest line to extend. Since the 7 in a 'odd' move goes underground at Main St, it was in fact supposed to go further east i Queens. Also, a extension to Javits Center is becoming more likely.
>>"The Eastern End is difficult to do anything with without spending mega-bucks, so here is a ridiculous mega-bucks scenario:
(i) extend the 3 line via New Lots Av, Dumont Av, Euclid Av, Liberty Av, convert the Euclid (A) line to IRT, then extend further along Liberty Av to Merrick Bvd.
(ii) connect the now isolated Rockaway Line via the former Rockaway Line then a second level (El or Subway) along the LIRR ROW then into the 63rd St tube to join the (Q) Line.
(iii) extend the Fulton St Express (A) East to JFK under (or over) Pitkin Av, Conduit Av."<<
Why would you convert the A into a IRT line. I see no sense in that whatsoever. I like plan (ii) and I would create a line that utilizes the middle tracks in the Rockaways and go to Manhattan.
Now for plan(iii), I am mixed on that one. It's not a bad idea but you would have to demolish the el in order for that to happen or reconfigure the el tracks to provide peak express service for Rockaway Park 's btw Grant Av & Howard Beach. As Jtrainloco said, you could just build a spur from Howard Beach [the AirTrain route should have been a subway line w/subway standards and a new version of the old JFK express].
>>"A clever-ish solution might be a conversion to metre gauge with trains about 6ft wide not 9ft - this would allow a 4-tracking of the line in Queens. If two tracks could be diverted at QBP, say over the Queensboro Bridge or something, then twice as many trains could run, making a 33% increase in capacity once width considerations are built in. That would leave theoretical room for expansion. In reality, this would cost so much, expansion would no longer be on the cards, but hey..."<<
There is room on the Queens-B and I believe it would increase 7 service BUT:
a)I don't see that happening
b)Times Sq currently can't handle that many trains if this plan is implemented
c)It would definitely have to be extended west in Manhattan to a new 4 track-2 island platform terminal at Javits center
Why would you convert the A into a IRT line. I see no sense in that whatsoever. I like plan (ii) and I would create a line that utilizes the middle tracks in the Rockaways and go to Manhattan.
Now for plan(iii), I am mixed on that one. It's not a bad idea but you would have to demolish the el in order for that to happen or reconfigure the el tracks to provide peak express service for Rockaway Park 's btw Grant Av & Howard Beach. As Jtrainloco said, you could just build a spur from Howard Beach [the AirTrain route should have been a subway line w/subway standards and a new version of the old JFK express].
Turning the Lefferts Line into an IRT Line would double the number of trains from 3-5tph to 6-10tph with capacity for more trains. It would also be a useful way of creating a partial outer ring, a type of line NYC lacks. It is definitely a strange idea, but a fun one nonetheless. The point of those three points (i), (ii), (iii) is that they would all happen at once - therefore (i) is a new use for the El that (ii) and (iii) make redundant. (iii) on a Conduit Avenue alignment would provide a fast way from JFK airport to Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan, with an interchange at Aqueduct to a faster line to midtown. If only money grew on trees...
Excellent suggestions. It would by great to have a direct subway train to JFK instead of that stupid AirTrain.
#3 West End Jeff
Has anyone seen either of the two new(er) videos, "Redbird Special" or "Triplex Special?" I'm curious as to whether they're worth $40/each.
Where did you see these? They don't sound like mine. I presume these cover the Memorial Day fantrips?
(My videos covering the Memorial Day fantrips will be available soon).
If the video runs over 2 tapes (say, 3 and a half or four hours), then, yes, it's probably worth the $40.00. I charge the same for the ones I make available that run for this amount of time.
--Mark
Mark, I don't know what date(s) they cover. Each trip is 3+ hours and each is two tapes (surprised they didn't offer it on a DVD). The Triplex tape is in HiFi stereo.
The Redbird trip starts at 42nd and travels on the 6 down around the City Hall Loop, then north on the D into the Bronx and Westchester Yard. Don't know any details about the Triplex trip. The tapes are available from Historic Rail, 800-261-5922. IIRC, I also saw them advertised from a vendor in the latest issue of Trains magazine.
DVD mastering is still mostly beyond the reach of the average homebrew railfan video producr whereas duping VHS can be done by anyone with a couple $75 VCR's. But some day....
VHS can be done by anyone with a couple $75 VCR's. But some day....
I just picked up a DVD+RW/R for $200 and change after rebates at BestBuy.
If you have a digital camcorder you're all set to do DVD mastering. (Software comes with the drive)
Looks like that day is here! :-)
> I just picked up a DVD+RW/R for $200
And how much was your DV camera? How much to add Firewire to your PC or mac? Or did you buy a new machine with the intent of doing DV? For some people, to get going with DV would come with a start-up price tag of nearly $2000. And you know how stingy some railfans are :-) which means that they're not buying DV-capable systems or shelling out for too many expensive railfan videos/DVD's.
Well assuming you don't already have a DV camcoeder, you can get a one starting at about $500, if it dosen't come with a firewire card, you can get one for about $35 or so.
Now if you have an old analog camcorder, then you can pick up an ATI TV wonder card for about $35 and capture analog video to your drive and use the software that comes with the DVD burner to master the DVD.
Not as good quality as DV but I've done it and it works, quality about the same as VHS. :-)
Not quite true.
If you want to shoot video for an interactive DVD, you have to take a totally different approach than you do for linear videotape. In addition, there is still the issue of compatibility ... there are two formats DVD+R(W) and DVD-R(W). Not all players will play back DVDs in both these formats. The -R format is supposed to be more compatible, but the marketplace hasn't made itself clear on which one it will adopt. A DVD cut on a computer's DVD drive may not play back on a standalone unit at all even if its in the same format (and that is your goal of cutting a DVD in this manner). Cutting a DVD this way is not the same as a "production" DVD is done (and I don't know how a production one is done).
If you consider the costs of a computer that has the horsepower to cut a DVD, plus the digital camcorder used to collect the video, it's not cheap at all. And then, when you have a finished video, you put it on DVD ... how do you dub from that DVD to the next one you want to rip? Will your computer come equipped with 2 DVD drives - a ROM drive for the source and a DVD RW for the new copy? You won't want to sit a the computer and re-make each DVD the same way every time. I know I don't :)
You could argue that now, you can buy a standalone DVD recorder and dub from videotape to DVD directly in the same way you might go from, say, Hi-8 to VHS (which is what I do). You won't get an interactive DVD, but if that doesn't concern you, it is a good way to archive your footage. I am actually giving this serious consideration, but haven't made a purchase yet.
--Mark
"how do you dub from that DVD to the next one you want to rip? Will your computer come equipped with 2 DVD drives - a ROM drive for the source and a DVD RW for the new copy?"
No, you wouldn't need 2 drives to make a copy. As anyone who has ever made a copy of a CDR or a floppy disk knows, you just need one drive and you do a "swap"
What you would need however is enough free space to fit the contents of the DVD onto your hard drive. But the good thing is that if you are making multiple copies, you just have to copy the original once. :-)
-Larry
whereas duping VHS can be done by anyone with a couple $75 VCR's.
While true, this isn't the way to do it right :)
--Mark
There's always a dual VCR. I have such an animal.
I'm new to this video thing. Tell me about videos. Is a camera positioned at the railfan window, is there narration? Is there a list of them for sale somewhere? Thanks.
*Tell me about videos. Is a camera positioned at the railfan window, is there narration? Is there a list of them for sale somewhere?*
Both are either at the railfan window or mounted above the motorman's head because the description states, "an engineer's view of the subway and elevated runs." Don't know about narration. You can find them at www.HistoricRail.com
Mark offers an enormous selection of videos (I don't own any) at http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/videos.html#New
Thanks Dave for providing the pointer.
The link on my video page that lists other people's feedback is outdated. I'll fix that on the next revision to the page, coming soon ... with more new videos, too :)
If you want to see what others thought of them, read their unsolicited comments here.
My videos ae not narrated. Basically, whatever the camera sees, you will see. I offer views from the railfan window, runbys through stations, at curves, from the street, you name it. It depends on your liking. e-mail me with any questions you may have.
--Mark
i shot one ...
also i shot 5 hours on the #4 ..with a redbird ...
3 LIRR lines as well
a saw a DVD recorder by panasonic however it is in the $900 price range ...
maybe next year i will save up 4 it ....
i thought we were all BANNED from shooting subway videos !!!!!!!!!!!
No, only you.
What are they and where and how are they applied?
Depending on the car model, they can in the cabs, in the doorsill or in the passenger cabin. They are applied by turning a hand crank (a round wheel) or by lifting a lever. It takes a long time for the brake shoes to press up against the wheel so it take a lot of cranks.
The wheel or lever pulls a chain which in turns activate the brake.
All this is mechanical, no air is involved. This is basically to keep the brakes in position on that car only. Air is used to activate the parking brakes but if there is a leak the parking brakes will release. They have been incidents in the past where this has happened.
The mechanical aspects of this device prevents such a event.
Im not sure about this but can the handbrake be used to stop a runaway?
On a Streetcar, it's the same principle in applying the brakes.
Most have a handle, which resembles a goose neck and most of the
slack is removed when operating, so as to limit the number of
cranks needed. Henceforth the terminology "Armstrong" Car.
>>>"Im not sure about this but can the handbrake be used to stop a runaway?"<<<
Most unequivocally yes on Streetcars equipped with air brakes,
if they failed, dynamic stopping procedure with motors plus
application of handbrakes to stop the car.
Our handbrake specialist of Streetcars, Dan Lawrence at BSM,
will correct me, and detail there use on streetcars.
;-) Sparky
Air is used to activate the parking brakes but if there is a leak the parking brakes will release. They have been incidents
in the past where this has happened.
"Parking Brakes" are specific to the New-Tech trains, and they
are spring-applied, air-released. On all other equipment, the
handbrake is used as the parking brake. Since the air compressors
are shut down when a train is laid up the air will eventually leak
off. That's why a motorman is required to set the handbrakes.
Im not sure about this but can the handbrake be used to stop a runaway?
Not very effectively. A handbrake cranked up as hard as a normal
human can get it has maybe 20% of the stopping power of a full-service
air brake application.
Im not sure about this but can the handbrake be used to stop a runaway? - howardr142
Not very effectively. A handbrake cranked up as hard as a normal
human can get it has maybe 20% of the stopping power of a full-service
air brake application. - Jeff H
A friend of mine stopped a single slow-moving runaway boxcar years ago on the New Hope and Ivyland. He pulled the air hose on the front end as it passed him, then pulled the air hose on the rear end as it passed him, then he climed up and turned the hand brake wheel to successfully stop the car. It subsequently took two men with a crowbar to release the handbreak.
>>> A friend of mine stopped a single slow-moving runaway boxcar years ago on the New Hope and Ivyland. He pulled the air hose on the front end as it passed him, then pulled the air hose on the rear end as it passed him <<<
A further explanation please. What is pulling the air hoses on a single boxcar?
Tom
A further explanation please. What is pulling the air hoses on a single boxcar?
Beats me; that's how he related the story. The hose at each end of the car had a loop that accommodated a bent arm inserting to remove the looped hose from whatever it was connected to. He thought this would dump the air.
Those are dummy couplings to hold the air hoses from dragging on the
ground.
I know they're between cars on the redbirds, but where exactly? I see things on the ends of each cars that look like horns. Are those the handbrakes?
:-) Andrew
Those are horns.
The handbrake is on the outside next to the storm door (on the motor control end only).
Are the handbrakes the things that look like headlights?
Allright. Don't be a smartass now. I just don't see anything on any redbird I've seen that seems like it could be a brake. Is it under the cab window or on the other side of the door?
---Andrew
The handbrake lever is on the outside of every T/O position of a Redbird...opposite to the cab window. All you have to do is ask...I'm #5 'troubles/inspection/backfill.'
To be 'brake specific,' handbrakes are racheted levers which apply mechanical force to the mechanical brake linkage of the truck directly below. Every T/O position of the Redbird has one...application only affects the truck below leaving 19 out of 20 trucks unaffected so its primary purpose is as a 'parking brake' to keep the trainset from rolling if all brake cylinder air is lost. It is a poor application in emergency as only one truck is affected and a lock-up will result in 'wheel flats'...a condition where wheels are locked up and ground flat upon the track surface. 'New Tech' is an entirely different matter...there is no handbrake. When brake system air pressure air pressure resevoirs falls below 90 PSI, there are pairs of Tread Brake Units that have towers containing a air bladder and powerful spring mechanism...loss of air in the bladder results in spring application of parking brakes in the trainset. There is no direct mechanical application of brakes...BIE requires air from the resevoirs which would lock up all brakes...loss of air pressure from
system would hopefully activate all brakes to stop the trainset...then the 'parking brakes' would activate. Seems complicated....BIE requires air pressure...parking brakes engage without...like when the T/O evacuates all pressure in a dump.
Several weeks ago, I discovered an anomaly: If a dummy cuts out the truck brake package directly below the T/O position on the R142, the gauge shows ZERO brake cylinder pressure BUT you can hear the ninteen trucks applying and releasing the brakes.
For further analysis, I recommend obtaining a complete video copy of the 'Little Rascals' motion picture 'Free Wheeling.' 'Wheese ain't be knowing where wheese be going but wheese am be going dere really fast.' Real braking shoes. CI Peter is OnTheJuice and InTheHole.
I've seen these on the outside, can't any dumb tourist pull the handbrake thinking it opens the doors? If so, what would happen?
The handbrake light in the cab illuminates and the T/O should feel a drag at low speeds, hopefully causing him to go investigate before flattening the wheels. Of course, it does take a few cranks before this all happens, so it would depend on how dumb the particular tourist happens to be. Your average dumb tourist would probably use the handle on the door to open the door long before reaching down into a dark greasy hole and pulling up on a lever.
The handbrake indication in the cab reflects the application of a microswitch pressed by the handbrake cam in one of twenty trucks trainline. There is a ten amp fuse in each circuit...I learned the hard way by ripping apart the circuit after it had been grounded out...the cable crosses the rollsign assembly and the rollsign chassis can cut through the cable. Light application of the handbrake would give the T/O no more feedback than 'snow brake.' The theory behind the handbrake indication is that any truck 'brake applied' trainline should light the LED in the operators cab.
Depending upon how much pressure is applied, probably nothing. I drove that little utility cart at Branford with steel shoes lightly applied to the tread scared silly with no effect. To do damage, a tourist would have to crank the brake lever to the max....only the truck below would get 'wheel flats' Chances are the operator would have little sense of dragging wheels if not for the 'parking brake indication.' BTW: 'Inspector Gadget' carries a butane soldering iron
to repair 'piss poor' indication boards...had one today but too busy because it was out of my assignment.
More likely the tourist would pull the hand brake release to open the storm door then lifing the lever full up (and down).
Heh. Years ago, I've had to reset the valve more than once for EXACTLY that reason. :)
Well, if the handbrake was an R-10, this and this.
Pulling the handbrake caused a derailment at Columbus Circle on Dec 12th, 1978.
--Mark
Thanks Mark for the pics....I fill the blank bulletin board up at the 239th locker room to give everyone a 'happy day.'
That'll make 'em happy, all right :)
(The all new R-10 with the can opener feature)
--Mark
Oh, I'm sure they'll ROFL.
;-) Sparky
Any dumb tourist can pull the handle. Redbirds slack is so loose that it'll take a lot of time and effort to hang up one truck. Tough job is for crew to search and release PBUs to get the LED indication lights to go dark. Went through this process on R142s today all over again...trainset charged up, door closure, T/O indication and the light on the T/O panel signifying release from parking brakes.
Not bad ones, either.
Story http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nysurv183007921nov18,0,4455438.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
The staphangers survey is a bunch of crap. The survey questions were clearly geared to get a certain responce
"Ending the 10 percent bonus on pay-per-ride MetroCards and lowering the base fare to $1.40. Survey found the current structure is inequitable: 39 percent of high-income riders take advantage of the bonus, compared with 13 percent of low-income riders."
This has to be the worst proposal out of trhe bunch. For one it removes all incentives to buy in bulk thus reducing the lines at MVM's and token booths.
Assuming for argument's sake that you are right about the surveyBut what about the other proposals?
I like the idea of a $31 card or a $16 card with flexible use. They would fill an unmet need and increase Metrocard sales.
>>> For one it removes all incentives to buy in bulk thus reducing the lines at MVM's and token booths. <<<
More importantly, it fails to take into account the reason for the differential. The TA gives the discount because it gets the use of the money between the time a card is purchased and the time is used. This is the basis of all bulk discounts. In the unlimited ride area, a fourteen day card for ½ the price of a monthly card is reasonable.
Tom
"The TA gives the discount because it gets the use of the money between the time a card is purchased and the time is used."
This can't be a major source of income relative to the discount. Suppose the average person who buys a $15 Metrocard uses the 11 rides over some number of days (the number doesn't matter). Then the MTA on average has $7.50 of his or her money. At long term municipal bond rates of 5% per year, this earn the MTA (in bonds not needing to be issued) $.375 per year. That's a pittance relative to the $1.50 discount as long as the customer uses the rides at some regular rate. And people who use fewer than 11 rides a year are unlikely to buy a $15 card.
I suspect the main reason is that it reduces the number of purchases. It also makes MVMs a possible alternative to booths. If everybody bought $3 Metrocards through MVMs, you'd need far more of them, for a major capital expense.
>> For one it removes all incentives to buy in bulk thus reducing the lines at MVM's and token booths. <<
Actually, not having to stand in line at an MVM or token booth would be an incentive in itself to buy in bulk. I'd probably still buy about $15 at a time even if the discount were eliminated. Maybe one thought now is that many folks are in the habit of buying that way they'll just continue to do it by habit. I usually fill my gasoline tank too even though I could buy a gallon at a time for the same price. Otherwise I have to keep pulling in and out of the gasoline station, and I'll need the gasoline sooner or later anyway.
>>> I usually fill my gasoline tank too even though I could buy a gallon at a time for the same price <<<
So do I because of the value I put on my time, but I bet you see quite a few people buying only $5.00 or $10.00 worth of gasoline. At stations where they offer a discounted car wash with a fill up (with a minimum), they tend to pump more gas than a station just selling gas at the same price.
Tom
I once lived near a gas station with a car wash that charged $3 without a discount, $1 with an 8-gallon gas purchase, or $0 with a coupon and an 8-gallon gas purchase. I picked up a stack of coupons and never bought more than 8 gallons at a time. (But my tank only holds 11 and change, so that often was basically a fillup.)
You maximized your return on the discount plan. Nice going.
>>> I usually fill my gasoline tank too even though I could buy a gallon at a time for the same price <<<
So do I because of the value I put on my time, but I bet you see quite a few people buying only $5.00 or $10.00 worth of gasoline. At stations where they offer a discounted car wash with a fill up (with a minimum), they tend to pump more gas than a station just selling gas at the same price.
Tom
So do I because of the value I put on my time, but I bet you see quite a few people buying only $5.00 or $10.00 worth of gasoline.
I was filling the truck up yesterday ($22.00 for 16.7 gallons of regular) and the woman behind me - driving a Mercedes - was buying $3.00 worth of premium and paying by credit card. Took more time to process the credit card than it did to pump the gas. Swami looked funny at my cash but he took it... not used to seeing gold dollars, I guess.
But this reminds me of another thing that will date me pretty badly... way back in the days when gas stations offered various freebies or game pieces with any purchase (and gas was 29¢/gallon) I would buy gas a gallon at a time just to get more game pieces or whatever goodies they were giving away. Won $25 in Sunoco's "Sunny Dollars" game that way and another time got a set of tires as one of ten Grand Prize winners in a Sinclair contest (still had to pay the Federal excise tax, valve stems, and balancing - but I needed the tires right then so it was still a great deal).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I buy the Monthly Pass on the 34th Street NY Waterways Ferry for $80.00. It actually works out to a $40.00 savings off the regular $120 cost of the daily tickets.
I also use NY Waterways to go to Pier 11 sometimes - Even though I dont use it that often I bought a 10 trip ticket because it saves $5.00 from the regular fare and I have a year to use the tickets.
So the discount is a big incentive to pay in advance!!
also remember, the elimination of the discount and lowering the fare will also cause people to pay and extra .04 cents for each ride. 11 rides would cost 15.40 under this plan instead of 15.00
Rethinking Peachtree Street streetcar (the real stuff)
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/horizon/1102/18streetcars.html
First the light rail loop and now this! I hope it all gets implemented because that will make Atlanta a fabulous place for railfanning. Oh yeah, I also believe in the importance of good transit for healthy cities, so I'm not just thiking of the needs of railfans here! However, I disagree on one minor point: I think a climate controlled streetcar would be a good idea in Atlanta's brutal summers. I just got back from Portland, Oregon where I got to ride their new streetcar system, and I was absolutely charmed by it, and even sealed in from the weather it seemed to contribute to a lively urban street life there.
Open or sealed, I hope they use a modern design. In a way I'm starting to get tired of the vintage streetcar lines. They strike me as an expression of uncertainty by their planners...adding nostalgia as if the merits of good transit weren't enough to sell streetcars to the public. I also just happen to like the futuristic look of Portland's streetcars, as well as those of certain French cities like Lyon and Orleans.
Mark
This makes the fourth light rail proposal on the table. What's good about all the proposals is that area businesses are the ones supporting them, which means politicos take notice (campaign $$). The Permeter line proposal's study is being funded by businesses along the proposed route.
This streetcar line could be the start of a large streetcar system for the city, I came up with a fantasy streetcar system some time ago (which didn't include a Peachtree St line, BTW), and it could connect with faster light rail with the proposed Northwest line and Belt Line, which would be hub lines. Also, utilizing the busways at many of the subway stations and rebuilding them for terminating streetcar lines would make for a seamless, multimodal mass transit system. The Peachtree St line could end inside Lenox for its northerrn terminus.
"Nostalgic" light rail is getting tiresome for me, too. I really hope they don't try to market this as a historic tourist trolley. The only history that should be reflected is naming the route #23, because that route number has been running along Peachtree St/Rd for over 100 years from horse buggy to the CNG buses that currently serve it. It's interesting to note that many of MARTA's bus numbers and their routes have their origins from the beginning of the last century, they should be reused if and when other bus routes are replaced with streetcars.
I think they can still get away with open air design and still be modern. Most people can take the summer, but being that we're 1000 feet above sea level, we DO get cold (I was freezing my balls off yesterday cleaning cars), and that might be a bigger problem. I wouldn't mind seeing some Lyon or Orleans type cars, those would definately spark curiousity in many people and attract riders.
Isn't it refreshing to see business realize the value of transit to the old-fashioned business of making money? It's really simple: Transit concentrates people, therefore transit concentrates customers. I wish the business leaders of the rest of the country had the foresight of those in Atlanta.
Do you know if any of your ideas are included in the new streetcar plan? Or have those details not been worked out yet?
And I agree with you that futuristic streetcars would attract riders. Even though Atlanta has lots of history, I get the feeling that the city is trying to sell itself as a very modern and forward looking metropolis. Modern streetcars would better fit that image. Old trolleys I feel are more suited for the image that New Orleans sells for itself.
Mark
It's always been the business people in Atlanta that make the large jumps forward, the only notable exception being Mayor William B. Hartsfield, who pushed for aviation.
My fantasy streetcar plan, which is in my head and not drawn out, borrows the real-life proposals already out there, plus a lot more. It looks like I need to add the Peachtree line into my plan. That older plan which I drew for you some time ago is pretty similar to my current plan, just more light rail and a large streetcar system.
Sat November 16, 2002 04:01 PM ET
LONDON (Reuters) - British police have arrested and charged three North African men in connection with an alleged plot to release cyanide gas on London's Underground rail system, Sky Television News reported Saturday.
It said the three, aged between 21 and their mid-30s, were of Tunisian or Moroccan background and were members of a group allegedly linked to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.
It said they were arrested and remanded in custody last week and would appear before magistrates in London Monday.
No one at Scotland Yard was available to comment.
The London Underground, popularly known as The Tube, is the world's oldest and one of its most extensive, carrying millions of passengers every day around the British capital.
Nothing new here. This was already posted by Simon Billis, who lives in Swindon, England.
The Terrorist group was infiltrated by police three weeks before the arrest. Only after the plot was stopped was the information released to the media.
Sounds like maybe we should do the same thing. Stop the broadcasting of nebulous information. The more the media broadcasts, the more paranoia increases.
Now the British government is downplaying the incident, saying today that the illegal materials were false identification papers.
Even so, if I were the MTA and city, state and federal law enforcement officials, I would still be on watch for any threat against the subways. The terror cells failed in their 1993 plot to destroy the World Trade Center, but the idea never left their heads over the next eight years. These same people tried and failed to cause a massacre at the Atlantic Ave.-Pacific Street complex five years ago, so odds are if there still are members of that terror cell out and about, the idea of attacking the NYC subway hasn't left their heads, either.
If you take a look at the 135 St stations in Harlem, you will notice that on the 2,3 it has a middle track. What is the purpose of this? Is it a lay up track or is it for somethig else?
135 St on the B,C it has SIX tracks. It has 2 local tracks, 2 express tracks and 2 "super express" tracks. Was the 2 "super express" tracks supposed to be lay up tracks, a new line that was never built or something else? I noticed that before trains reach 125 St, the tracks all of a sudden go under somwhere. Where do they go??? All info is appreciated. Thanx.
Oh BTW, why is the Bronx bound platform on the B & D at 145 St so wide and the Manhattan bound island platofrm is 'standard' size b/c there is enough room for a 4th track. Was this platform built like this or was there a track that was converted into platform space? Thanx for any info.
Well, I don't know the answer to all of your questions, but I do know the last one.
Oh BTW, why is the Bronx bound platform on the B & D at 145 St so wide and the Manhattan bound island platofrm is 'standard' size b/c there is enough room for a 4th track. Was this platform built like this or was there a track that was converted into platform space? Thanx for any info.
That was built that way. In the book Building the Independent System there is a photo of the station when it was almost new. The lower level station is built right under the upper level, and the upper level has four tracks. The only reason that the lower level has that wide platform is because the two stations were built one directly on top of the other, and the Concourse line was only built for three tracks, so the Bronx bound platform was built wider (partly under the express track upstairs).
At 135th St. on the 8th Ave. line, the two innermost tracks are the true express tracks; i. e., they are used by A and D trains. The other two "express" tracks are storage tracks; however, an train may occasionally rerouted to one of them. I rode on a n/b D train once that got rerouted along the track directly adjacent to the n/b local track. Both tracks begin north of 125th St. and end just past 135th St. where the Concourse line branches off. You can see the switches through the railfan window. I'm surprised they don't just continue since the Concourse local track leads use the exact same trackways.
If you take a look at the 135 St stations in Harlem, you will notice that on the 2,3 it has a middle track. What is the purpose of this? Is it a lay up track or is it for somethig else?
Any train on the 3 line running as a 'shuttle' uses it to relay, relaying fouls up 2 trains though.
135 St on the B,C it has SIX tracks. It has 2 local tracks, 2 express tracks and 2 "super express" tracks. Was the 2 "super express" tracks supposed to be lay up tracks, a new line that was never built or something else? I noticed that before trains reach 125 St, the tracks all of a sudden go under somwhere. Where do they go??? All info is appreciated. Thanx.
Lay-up, though, I never see it used. Rockaway Pk trains should terminate at 125th st in the AM, lay-up on the N/B storage track, and then in the evening rush reverse on the 145th lower level and go into service at 125th st. That would be a good use for those tracks. Presently, those trains seem to go wherever. I've seen 207th, Dyckman and 168th st. And Rockaway PK stations say that the trains are going to 59th st.
Also, there is another point where the CPW line has 3 tracks on each of the two levels. It's between two local stops, like after 81st or something. That too is never used.
The 3rd track between 81st and 72nd st is used for revenue and trash collection trains that reside there for a few minutes to allow a regular train to pass. Sometimes if there is a stoppage on either track, the 3rd track may also be use to switch trains from local to express and vice versa, but these situtations rarely occur.
I once layed up an E that blew a compressor at 34th St. there. These extra tracks come in habdy for B.O's during the rush hour.
I once layed up an E that blew a compressor at 34th St. there. These extra tracks come in habdy for B.O's during the rush hour.
Question: Why would you send a B.O. All the way to 72nd st when the 34th st lay-up tracks are right there?
Since he doesn't say which way he was headed at the time, a good guess would be he was going north and had already passed the entrance to the 34 St spur.
Or maybe there is no way to access the 34th St Spur from the local track.
Northbound, no. Southbound, yes.
That was correct. Actually, I didn't even know about it until I got to 42nd, and people reported sparks coming from under the train, and the C behind us reported track fires. So it was 42nd that we went out of service.
I have often ridden through this middle track. Usually it happens when an uptown A and D arrive at Colombus Circle at the same time, with the D on the local track. The D, rather then switching just north of the station over to the express track, runs through 72nd St on the local track, then switches onto the pocket track, waiting there for the A train to clear up ahead. This process prevents a bottleneck at 59thSt from forming.
Does it stop at 72nd? (On the one hand, since it has to wait for the A anyway, it might as well perform a useful service in the meantime. On the other, if announcements aren't very clear, some passengers may get on at 72nd assuming it's running local, since, after all, why else would it be stopping at 72nd?)
Usually, No. The time spent at 59 telling everyone it's an express, plus the time to cross into the spur is usually enough for the A to be cler of the northern switch coming out of the spur.
No, in my experience the train bypassed 72nd. St. I think this bizarre routing was employed to keep trains moving through 59th St. so that service south of here didn't become snarled. If you simply crossed the D over to the express track using the scissor crossover just north of the station, nothing on express track @ 59th can move.
Any train on the 3 line running as a 'shuttle' uses it to relay, relaying fouls up 2 trains though.
How can it use the middle track to relay? The middle track is at 135th Street.
Train pulls out south. Reverses onto middle track. Pulls out south AGAIN onto n.bound track. Reverses into station.
In the end, keeping 145th and 148th open and doing all that switching really isn't worth the cost. Especially when you can take the bus.
But wouldn't that be a lot simpler without the middle track and with a crossover south of the station instead?
If the station had an underpass, incidentally, there wouldn't need to be a relay at all -- just switch to the NB track north of the station and passengers connecting to the SB 2 could cross under.
(Contrary to popular belief, there still is a 3 shuttle train; it just doesn't run all night anymore.)
That's a tough job. I assume it's double-ended OPTO like the 42st shuttle?
Double-ended with a C/R. Last I was aware of, it only ran very early Sunday mornings.
joe Cunningham addressed this on a tour. He said there are two viewpoints:
1- To line up columns with the Washington Heights (A) trains above
2- It was intended to be four tracked because no IND section had just three tracks (other than sectiosn taken over from the BMT such as Liberty Ave Section of the A.).
One story I heard about the Concourse line was that residents of the Bronz were given a choice between waiting another year for additional funding and get a four-track line or opt for construction to begin immediately and get only a three-track line. They chose the latter.
was named after George W. Train!
While we're at it, Avenue X used to be called something else but then it abandoned its slave name and became Avenue X.
Lol, you've been smoking again haven't you?
The Dubya train won't fit in the roller curtains.
Wow, such tasty spam! Only from you, Pig.
MMMM! MORE SPAM!... A HA HA HA HA!..
.....and the (W) train used to be the (B) train which was named after BELLEVUE !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hello All: Perhaps this is slightly off-topic, but it is largely transit-related.
Last week I took a railfan trip to Northern Ontario, via the Ontario Northland and Algoma Central. (BTW, CN is set to buy the ONR, so if you've ever thought about a ride on the Northlander or Polar Bear Express, do it quickly...). The trip was a delight, scenery and the people were wonderful. I also spent a day in Toronto, mostly aboard CLRVs......
On my meandering way back from Toronto, I stopped in a small museum called the Penetanguishene Centennial Museum, in the town of Penetanguishene (pronounced Pen - eh - tang - gwih - sheen, and often abbreviated Penetang) Ontario. They have on display what they claim to be one of only five steam dummies left in the world.
(For those who may be unfamiliar with the term....A steam "dummy" is a fully enclosed steam locomotive that resembles a passenger car, designed so as to be aesthetic and not to frighten horses. In the horse car days, horses were often frightened by moving siderods and smoke billowing from steam locomotives, "dummies" were intended to resemble horsecars as closely as possible. I've been told that the term "dummy" referred to the fact that they were not customarily equipped with whistles or bells, and were thus "dumb" - i.e., they couldn't "talk".)
Unfortunately, the ornate original cab to the engine (former Hamilton and Dundas Railway) was destroyed in an 1897 collision. The loco presently is on outdoor display, the substitute 1899-era cab it had has recently been disassembled. (The loco survived, after a rehab in 1899, as a switcher at a local sawmill until 1924).
Does anyone know where the other four dummies are, or if the museum is correct by saying only five "dummies" exist? I know quite a few Manhattan El "Forneys" survived as industrial switchers, perhaps a few older "dummies" survived as well.
THANKS for any info!
Conrad Misek
Quincy, MA
I din't know of any survivors, but I do know that Steam Dummies were used on the following lines in the NYC Area
1. The South Side railroad used them from its terminus by Bushwich and Montrose Aves, to Broadway ferry starting in about 1869.
2. The Lutheran line used them from Myrtle/Wyckoff to Metrolpolitan Aves. in the 1880's. They were later replaced by trollies, then elevated cars in 1906 when the line was connected by a ramp to the Myrtle Ave. El. Finally that portion of the line was elevated about 1916.
3. The Cypress hills Cemetery line used them (There was a station on the NY and Manhattan Beach line called "Dummy Crossing" which intersected it.)
4. The Richmond Hill line also used them (Todays route of the Q55 BUS)
5. I also think they were used on the Atlantic Ave line but I'm not sure off the top of my head if it was from ENY to Jamaica, or from Brooklyn to ENY after steam was banned from Brooklyn from 1860 to 1877.)
Sydney (Australia) Steam Tram Museum had an operational Baldwin Sydney Steam Tram dummy (known in Austalai as a "motor") built in 1981. It was badly damaged in a recent fire, but is being rebuilt.
Do you really mean 1981 or is it supposed to be 1881?
I can't believe the 20th Century date, given Sydney's trams quit in 1959.
Sorry, it was meant to be 1891!! A pity there is no equivalent of "spellcheck" for dates.
But just to be ultra pedantic, Syndey's last tram actually ran in February 1961
http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/pion11182002.htm
Interesting article! I agree with the ideas that were presented. However, when they do raise the fares next year and again in 2005, I think the fare should be raised only in the central subway (meaning the base $1.00 fare). I realize it's convenient for people who live in the suburbs to have the T near them, but I'm still not convinced people in Newton and the south shore need to pay so much. If anything, charge a fare for outbound service on the surface routes of the Green Line before raising the outbound fares. -Nick
Please advise
Assuming you mean Avenue and not Street, Bergen Avenue is way out in Bergen Beach and is a very unlikely location for a subway, both because of remoteness and the water table.
Nor do I know of a subway under Bergen Street.
What do you mean by a "subway"? Why do you think there might be?
Speaking of Bergen St, the subway map shows it extends to the Queens border, but I've never seen it in that area before. Where is Bergan St's northern starting point?
Speaking of Bergen St, the subway map shows it extends to the Queens border, but I've never seen it in that area before. Where is Bergan St's northern starting point?
Bergen runs east-west, from Court St to East New York Ave. The eastern extension shown on the subway map is wrong; it's more like Glenmore Ave.
I thought Bergen St ran past Court St, beyond Columbia St almost to the East River?
At Court Street it becomes Congress Street.
Only Pacific and Atlantic go from ENY Avenue to the East River without changing names. Although Pacific ends at Hicks Street
Well, first off Bergen St runs east-west from Clinton St or something like that to around ENY Av. If it did run to the border[which I doubt], it was shortened b/c of housing projects built there[I know Dean St definitely was].
It never did. All of the street south of Atlantic and north of Eastern Parkway end and always have ended on East New York Avenue (formerly Flatlands Neck Road/Jamaica Road).
there are a few manhole covers along Classon ave in Brooklyn with the NYCTA stamp on them.... Does anybody have any idea what thats about?
A good guess is feeder cables. I think some of the feeder cables that served both trolley and rapid transit are still in use.
Right, Paul. There is even a manhole with the initials BHRR (Brooklyn Heights Railroad) in the middle of Court Street near Borough Hall. Those obviously date to almost the turn of the 20th Century. As well, over by Brooklyn College, are manholes with the initials B.M.T. and B.&Q.T. (these can be found on the sidewalk near the intersection of Ave. H and Nostrand Ave. -- south-east corner).
As well, over by Brooklyn College, are manholes with the initials B.M.T. and B.&Q.T.
Uh, ohhhhh....
Better watch your step while walking around those areas. And the City should check the eBay auctions. ;-)
Better watch your step while walking around those areas. And the City should check the eBay auctions. ;-)
Where can I rent a pick-up truck and some lifting equipment ;-)
Who needs lifting equipment? Manhole covers weigh about 150 lbs and can be picked up by two men. All you need to pick them up is a steel rod with a hook on the end. Insert rod into hole in cover, work the hook under the cover and pry up. BTW, there's a lip that the cover sits on, that's why you can't drop a cover into the manhole.
BTW, there's a lip that the cover sits on, that's why you can't drop a cover into the manhole.
And manhole covers are almost always round, for the same reason.
Call Mayor Bloomberg! We'll cover the defecit by auctioning off vintage manhole covers on eBay! :)
there are a few manhole covers along Classon ave in Brooklyn with the NYCTA stamp on them...
Please!
They are not manhole covers.
Ther are "Personel Access Port Enclosures"
Sheesh!
P.A.P.E....Pappy?[lol]
Which one? The present Bergen Ave was once Paerdegat Ave South; Royce St was orinially Bergen Ave. They may also have once been East 76 and East 75 Sts, respectively. I'm not sure what you mean by "subway;" maybe an underpass when Bergen Ave had streetcar service? I'm sure Empire City Subway has some utilities under the street...
I only know of three places where streetcars actually went under the street surface in NYC. Name all three? And if someone knows more I'd be really impressed.
The three underground streetcar places are at the Manhattan End of the Williamsburg Bridge, the Manhattan end of the Queensborough Bridge, and on Church Avenue under Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn. There was a fourth underpass on Park Avenue in Manhattan, just south of Grand Central Terminal.
Do I win a prize?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Ah, yes, the prize of satisfaction.
But were there trolleys in the Park Avenue underpass? I didn't know that.
I thought the Madison-Fourth Avenue line of the New York Railways used it before conversion to buses in 1936. Perhaps someone could refer us to a postcard or book photo.
The New York & Harlem, the original operator, apparently operated streetcars until several years prior to the takeover by NYR, which then continued to operate streetcars until bus conversion.
There is some information in the bus section here in NYCSubway.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Aren't there remnants of a trolley station about 1/2 way through the Park Avenue tunnel?
--Mark
I went to the horse's mouth for this, at Joe Brennan's Abandoned Stations site.
He's become the Kevin Walsh of the New York netherland. Or Kevin is the Joe Brennan of the New York upperland. Or something.
Paul--
I had thought about Kevin's site but it would have made more sense to do what you did, to check Joe Brennan's site.
Thanks.
What's the final list of streetcar routes with underground sections?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Let's see...
Brooklyn
Church Avenue between E5 and E7 Streets
Cobble Hill (Atlantic Avenue) tunnel - had horsecars for about a year
Manhattan
Essex Street Terminal - BRT
2nd Avenue QB Bridge Terminal - Steinway
Park Avenue South, with station - ex-New York & Harlem
The Bronx
Kingsbridge Road under the Grand Concourse
161st Street under The Grand Concourse.
Under The Grand Concourse at 167th Street
I also just thought of the subway entry from the portion of Union Turnpike in Queens which is an underpass. I don't know if there was ever rail on it, though.
All done? Anyone else?
What about the tunnel for the Montague St Cable Car?
Church Avenue under Ocean Parkway.
Essex Street Trolley Terminal
Park Avenue Tunnel
Kingsbridge Road under the Grand Concourse
161st Street under The Grand Concourse.
By the way there is also a tunnel under The Grand Concourse at 167th Street. There used be platforms with stairways going up to the Concourse Subway. As a matter of fact there were porcelain signs in the subway station that said, "To East Bound Street Cars" and "To West Bound Street Cars." I think these quotes are fairly accurate. The passageway to this location is now sealed off, although you can see where the tilework was added to seal off the access to the stairs leading up to the control area and then down to the tunnel under the Concourse at the northern end of the station. I have not passed through the tunnel in a few years. The last time that I passed through, you could see the stairs going up to the subway. The stairs were sealed at the top.
Prepare to be dazzled, there's another. Kingsbridge Road, under the Grand Concourse where you can pick up the D train as well ... and I'm not certain, but I'd bet 174th Street as well ...
They may also have once been East 76 and East 75 Sts, respectively.
I think you answered right there why I posted this message. In Busfan form too (I can't believe none of you noticed that!).
The present Bergen Ave was once Paerdegat Ave South; Royce St was orinially Bergen Ave.
That sounds a little out there, and I don't think it's true either.
1960:
As you can see, a part of Bergen Avenue (probably unbuilt, although I wouldn't know) was called Paerdegat Avenue South, but Royce was not Bergen. Bergen north of U would have been what is now 72nd north of M.
Bergen north of M is now East 72 north of M. The present Royce St extends as far north as Royce Pl (Bergen 11 St) along the old Bergen Ave alignment. The portion between N and T isn't built yet; it will be soon, along with an extension of East 73 St and a new steet called (ick) Bergen Cove midway between N and T.
I think building streets like Bergen Cove is a scam. They need to build a GRID.
One thing that is really apalling is when I was reading about a proposed linkup of the two Bergen Avenues (north of N, south of T), and people at the local community board meeting PROTESTED. Something about outside people entering their quiet neighborhood (read: All of them #000000 people who shop on Ralph Avenue will take side trips down a unified Bergen Avenue, GASP!).
Could be, but doesn't need to be, a racial motive. Lots of people wouldn't want to see a through street and traffic where one didn't exist before.
Also, DOTs have the depressing habit, once a through route is established, of widening it, which brings even more traffic, which justifies widening it further, etc. etc. etc.
But where would these people go. All of the blocks south of there are built up, so the only way more traffic can originate is densification. Zoning law prohibits that.
so the only way more traffic can originate is densification. Zoning law prohibits that.
I could go on a rant about zoning laws... let's just say that with fixed land and an increase in demand for housing, without densification, there's only one way house prices are going...
It could happen; there is still undeveloped land in the neighborhood, and Bergen Ave is presently built to only half its mapped width.
Mike, that is quite right.
Besides, if memory serves me right, weren't there plans to have a Belt Parkway entrance/exit connecting with the Bergen Beach community?
A number is missing in the count between Flatbush Avenue (11) and Rockaway Parkway (13)...
A number is missing in the count between Flatbush Avenue (11) and Rockaway Parkway (13)...
That's because they're two miles apart. And Knapp Street (9) and Flatbush Avenue (11) are also two miles are apart.
So are Erskine Street (15) and Cross-Bay Blvd (17). Before Erskine Street, Pennsylvania Avenue (14) and CBBlvd were three miles apart.
If you happen to look at the tenth-mile markers sometime, the last three digits show in decimiles the distance from the west end of the highway in that county.
Well, I don't know if that's accurate, since the distance between Penn. Avenue and Erskine isn't even a mile....furthermore I seriously doubt if CBBlvd and Erskine are a full two miles apart. But I'll look into the details...
The community actually wanted to maintain the grid. The original proposal for the site between N & T, Gil Hodges Loop, was deemed too "insular" by the community board. Unfortunately, East 72 St is blocked by the Anthony Genovesi Environmental Center, and East 74 St wouldn't get very far before intersecting Royce St at a funny angle, so only East 73 St could extend north. The east-west street, Bergen Cove (couldn't call it Gil Hodges anymore; his estate sued), couldn't make it all the way to East 71 St, either; there's a playground in the way, so it dead-ends.
I doubt the opposition was racially motivated. The community was trying to stop more houses from being built, period. If there are no new streets, no new houses can be built on them. I know I'd much rather have a dumping site across from my house than other houses! Why the CB changed their tune when the plan went from a Loop to a poor excuse for a grid, I'll never know.
If it was a proposed subway expansion, I'd say racial fears :).
"Tony Genovesi Environmental Center?!?!?!" Tell me this isn't the hauling and cartage king whose buddies lived down on President Street in Brooklyn? Al D'Amato's buddy? OH, THAT would be a hoot if that's true ... Manhattan or Brooklyn?
Anthony Genovesi was the state senator for the district including Bergen Beach. He died a few years ago in a car crash.
Just checked, NOT the same person I was thinking of ...
President Street in Brooklyn, especially near Cobble hill, is Gallo territory, but I doubt if Kid Blast Gallo is able to do much these days. His brother Joey was up and coming until he made the wrong folks angry, then he was tken off the count.
Heh. When I lived in the Bronx, I had friends that would drive me down there for picture tube replacements on some HUGE TV consoles every time the Giants blew a game and JOey shot out the CRT. :)
Know the territory well.
President Street in Brooklyn, especially near Cobble hill, is Gallo territory, but I doubt if Kid Blast Gallo is able to do much these days. His brother Joey was up and coming until he made the wrong folks angry, then he was taken off the count.
I should also have posted:
I don't think any of the streets that are listed on that map were ever built. I may be wrong though.
In any case, older maps called them East 75th and East 76th:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/Bklyn.1913.3.html
I MIGHT have an inkling of what Pigs could be referring to....I have an old (circa 1918) map showing a close-up of the Flatlands/Canarsie & Bergen Beach neighborhoods that was commissoned by then Brooklyn Borough President Reigelman. The map was made to show a proposed plan to turn the area now commonly known as Floyd Bennett Field into a deep-water port, something akin to Port Elizabeth of today. (The area at the time of the report was a land-fill dump made from a series of small marsh-like islands in Jamaica Bay).
The map shows a planned branch off of the present Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR that would have left the mainline at about Glenwood Road and Utica Avenue. It followed the route of today's Bergen Avenue, then turning west onto Avenue U, and again making a left running alongside Flatbush Avenue. At the Floyd Bennett area the line then would branch into several turn-outs along the various piers indicated on the map.
Obviously, the proliferation of the airplane shortly after the time of the proposal changed the plans and the rest as they say is history...
Anyone out there know of why there is a late night crew running up the line? I now hear them with the double diesel engines and one car of the M-1s in the middle riding on the rails as they past my apt. building in Bayside, Queens....
i'll take a guess and say it's a leaf crusher train
They are going to retrieve golf balls hit over the back fence of the driving range near the Douglaston Station.
That's their version of a "gel train" that NYCT has. It sprays a gel on the rails that prevents sliding on rails due wet leaves. The NYCT gel train does the rails on the Brighton, Sea Beach, Dyre Ave and other outdoor lines situated in cuts.
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's a NYTimes article that talks about a few things, including reducing the fare from $1.50 to $1.40 (!!!).
The reduction was thought to be used to increase ridership.
It also talks about a 14 day pass unlimitted MetroCard, a five day (non-consecutive days) unlimitted pass, and a way to replace lost 30 day cards, with a $5.00 fee.
New York Times
Also, includes elimination of 10% off metrocards of more than $15. The plan is that you get more lower income people to ride, and rid yourself of the bonuses that only 'higher income' persons can afford.
All it takes to get the 10% bonus is a one-time $15 outlay.
Yes, some people genuinely can't afford that much.
But anyone who subscribes to cable TV can. Anyone who ever eats out or buys prepared foods can. Anyone who ever goes to the movies, to baseball games, to concerts can. Anyone who replaces a functioning appliance with the latest model can.
So why do so many people who can afford it pay for a ride or two at a time? I'd suggest it's perhaps because they're not used to the notion of saving -- of not spending every penny from last month's paycheck before this month's comes in, or of putting $15 onto a MetroCard today even it won't be used up for another week or two.
Each transaction, whether in person or at a machine, costs the TA money, so it makes sense to give bulk discounts. (A per-transaction fee coupled with a slight reduction in the base fare would be more direct but wouldn't seem as friendly to the public.)
Has (i.e. MTA) anyone looked at the RATE of increase of MetroCard use? If it is still going up and token use is going down, or ridership is still going up due to the discount, then we may be having an academic discussion here that will change in a year or two.
Maybe so, but I can't imagine anyone not being able to afford the $15.00 "investment" as long as they are really not living dollar to dollar. It should mean more to those "dollar to dollar" people than to those who make more money. The $1.50 doesn't mean too much to someone who has money anyway. But if someone is making minimum wage, they should do anything they can to save that $1.50.
The problem is that these people have never been taught a penny saved is a penny earned.
Put a few pennies aside instead of spending all your money as soon as you get it and you will be rewarded.
People stuck earning minimum wage rarely think on the consequences of their actions thus are always stuck in the same cycle.
The entire public should not be held responsible for their irresponsibility
Well, it's not necessarily irresponsibity, as such.
My mother grew up in a fairly well-to-do family (earned the hard way--no coupon clippers). They made it through the Depression, but things were pretty tight from then on. Partly as a reaction, I guess, she would never lay out more than was necessary at any given time. This meant that she tended to buy the "small" versions of non-perishable items and other similar things, even when it was very bad economy. She continued to do this even when she was working and no longer having to worry about every cent.
If you've never been in a position of barely having two nickels to rub together (and I have) it's hard to understand the security of having some money jingling around in your pocket and refusing to depart with an extra penny for a longer term gain.
So it's a mindset that's very difficult to break.
Having said all that, we can't let this rule important public policy. The MTA finally discovered marketing in providing discount and promotional fares which have enormously boosted ridership. I don't blame the poor person who can't or won't shell out a little more to get a benefit so much as I blame people who claim to speak for their interests who refuse to face the fact that without the discounts that so greatly boosted ridership, everyone might already be paying more than that $1.50 base fare.
Well said, both in terms of why poor people don't use discounts, and why we still need to keep them.
One could argue that the 10% discount for metrocard purchaces over $15 is actually providing a valuable life lesson on money management
AND
MVM's are teaching a population deprived of computer exposure, how to use computer's
From the article--
"The authors say the $1.50 base fare can be reduced to $1.40 if the city eliminates the current 10 percent bonus on MetroCard purchases of $15 or more. The study contends that the bonus provides an unfair advantage to middle- and upper-income riders."
What were we talking about in a recent thread about using class issues to knock down the original discount plan a dozen years ago?
The study group ignores the use of discounts and cross-fare marketing that led to the huge increase in ridership.
Oh--I just noticed that the study is from Straphangers. At the risk of incurring the wrath of Mr. Inbayside, let me say this: I think Gene Russianoff is a sincere, hard-working and charming person, but some of the ideas from Straphangers (assuming they are not all his personally) are moronic.
Except I like the "replace your lost Metrocard for a nominal fee" idea.
Oh come on! Ronnie is pretty soft once you get to know him. Though, I do see your point after your confrontation with him over the Strappies.
Yeah, RIB and I get along better than you know on non-Subtalk topics, but we have a pose to maintain here.
Someone was supposed to have approached Oscar Wilde and accused him of being a poseur, to which Oscar replied: "But isn't it an attractive pose?" ;-)
Except I like the "replace your lost Metrocard for a nominal fee" idea.
If it's implemented, after a few months, Straphangers will argue that it should be free of charge, because the economically disadvantaged can't afford the nominal fee.
There have been arguments in the past -- especially in the 1970s -- by some groups claiming the fare should be eliminated completely. I don't know if Gene was involved in this, but I think NYPIRG was and Gene is affiliated with them. Of course the supporters were never clear how the city was going to pay for a free system, other than "tax the rich" and "get it from Albany/Washington" let alone the legal ramifications of making the system open to everyone, which could have denied the MTA the right to limit panhandling and other actions that are protected in public places like sidewalks.
The current proposal isn't going to do that, but it does lean towards the same vein and ignores one of the reasons why the discount was created in the first place -- along with the free Metrocard transfer, it was designed to get more people to ride mass transit, especially in the outlying areas of the city where people were more likely to use their cars to avoid the fare costs. The fact that the plan succeeded beyond the MTA's wildest dreams (which thereby created the current B Division car shortage) is no reason to turn around now and try to stick it to the people you were trying to attract back into the system six years ago.
>>> Except I like the "replace your lost Metrocard for a nominal fee" idea. <<<
Why? My bank just gave me a roll of 25 dollar coins. If I lose the roll or any part of it, I'm on my own. I would prefer to see the "nominal fee" (about 25-50¢) charged as an insurance premium when the card is purchased, since canceling and replacing a card requires registering the card number. Those who were confident they would not lose their cards would not pay the fee since those cards would not need to be registered.
Tom
I like your idea, Tom. Very nice.
It's not unreasonable to me that a person would be afraid of losing a $63 investment at a single pop, so, since it can be electronically cancelled, they should offer a replacement.
But I think a nominal fee only if you lose it is fair. The extra processing costs something and I think it's OK to have a small disincentive for carelessness,
It's been a while since I've had a commuter ticket (almost 10 years) but if you lose it, I think you're skunked, and the potential loss is always a lot more (sometimes a lot lot more) than $63. I seem to recall you have some recourse if you do "Mail 'n Ride" where your ticket is sent to you automatically every month.
It's been a while since I've had a commuter ticket (almost 10 years) but if you lose it, I think you're skunked, and the potential loss is always a lot more (sometimes a lot lot more) than $63. I seem to recall you have some recourse if you do "Mail 'n Ride" where your ticket is sent to you automatically every month.
I have a Mail 'n' Ride, and as far as I know there's no relief available if I lose it. I'll have to take a careful look at the information form sent with each month's ticket to be sure.
Actually, last Spring I did lose my ticket, but as it was the next-to-last workday day of the month it was no big deal.
>>> It's not unreasonable to me that a person would be afraid of losing a $63 investment at a single pop, so, since it can be electronically cancelled, they should offer a replacement <<<
Under the present system, since the MTA does not know who has which card, a lost card cannot be canceled. I suppose they could be sold like Money Orders with a tear off portion with a serial number that you keep in a safe place in case of loss of the card, but that requires extra expense for every card.
>>> The extra processing costs something and I think it's OK to have a small disincentive for carelessness <<<
It is not the extra processing cost of replacing the card, it is the extra processing cost for the whole system, such as providing the numbered receipt, and making sure there are security procedures to prevent fraudulent replacement requests; i.e. if you lose the receipt and the next day someone else cancels your card and gets a replacement. This problem could be alleviated by registering the card to its purchaser by name and address, but this has costs attached too, and triggers privacy concerns.
Tom
Each card could have a serial number (both electronic and printed) that the person would have to write down to get a replacement. Using a few parity digits would make guessing a valid number improbable.
If a person claiming a lost card submitted the number (along with ID to further discourage fraud) and the number passed the parity check and was the number of a currently issued card of the right type, a new card could be issued and the old card deactivated right on the spot. No special receipt needed at all.
It is also much easier to swipe a card then dig into your pocket for a fare
Now I still think my idea is better: drop all of the fare deals, but keep the fare the way it is.
Now that you guys have had some pretty intelligent discussion on the
topic, I'll add my ten cents in...
If the fare went down to $1.40, would the cost of a slice of pizza
follow?!
If the fare went down to $1.40, would the cost of a slice of pizza follow?!
That is hysterical that you should mention that. When I was a kid I went by that! I don't remember the exact prices, but bear with me - The subway I think was $.75 (and so was a slice of pizza). The fare went up to $.90 (and so did a slice of pizza), to $1.00 (and so was a slice of pizza), and so on. I don't know how true that has held fast, because I rarely buy just one slice of pizza now anymore, but it sure was fact back in the 80's in my teen and pre-teen years. (of course when I used to pinch my pennies much more also).
PastaCards, anyone? 11 slices for 15 dollars, redeemable anytime? And, by golly, you still get to use those old tokens?
All-you-can-eat until 3am for only $4, or for an entire month for $63.
But then the current administration would start talking about raising the cost of single servings so we could bring the Grand Central Market all the way downtown.
Yes, but the price of a whole pie would be the same as eight slices.
In th eold days you would get one slice free if you bought the whole pie
Not anymore. I still can not get used to a $10 plus pizza pie
The bigger problem is finding a good slice no matter the price
The bigger problem is finding a good slice no matter the price
Yeah, but at least we have a choice. Be glad you don't live in places where it's Domino's or nothing.
And actually there's worse than Domino's...
Yes I definitly agree.
Pizza has always been a stple food for me. Especially in the days when I could not afford anything else. I always was one to walk the extra block to get a better slice of pizza!!!!
I figure this is a real New York topic--and not completely OT. I know a lot of people who can't face the subway or the railroad without a bagel and coffee.
Question--How much is a bagel (nothing on it) in your neck of the woods? Where is your neck of the woods? And for the price do you find the bagel (a) skimpy, (b) OK, (c) hefty, (d) dinner-sized?
I was curious because out in Babylon, bagels hit 50c per about three years ago after a few held out at 40c or 45c. They've held at 50c until two nearby places went to 55c (unwieldy amount) about six months ago. One pulled the price back to 50c but the other is still 55c. Still the 55c bagel is nice and big while the 50c bagels go from small to decent.
A good ten years ago a co-worker downtown was admiring my huge bagel I got near Canal for 50c, when he paid 65c (he said) in Forest hills for a smaller bagel. Anybody paying a dollar?
There are two kinds of bagels. The First and Real one is a high gluten flour 'doughnut' boiled in a brine solution and then baked. The second one is what I call a 'bread bagel.' Basic bread dough rolled into a doughnut and baked...mobile Bin Loden telephone booths dispense these atrocitise laden with 'non'Halal' butter for the Goyim.
When you're hungry...they are good. It's almost 8 PM....gotta go gotta go...55 cent bagels go 'used' for 25 cents at Food Emporium. I get 'toothpaste tubes' of creamcheese from Sams Club...roach coach bagels at shop are sorry bread bagels...I need something to knaw upon.
H&H on the upper west side was charging 90 cents in August.
H&H on the upper west side was charging 90 cents in August.
Was did they charge during Festivus?
i get rip off at work for bagels. they charge .80 for bread rolled like a bagel.
So read my scientific post about real bagels and 'bread bagels.' IF you purchase bagels in the supermarket, bread bagels are far more uniform and rounder, often carrying grid markings on the bottom. TA food has special requirements, especially when you have a GO and relief is a distance away.
Yo Paul....so I'm typing out to you with a wonderful baking aroma and I find tomorrows 'Aintcha Moma' waffles on fire. On Fire...in my toaster oven! Threw water on em....they're blacker than composite brake shoes. Did get my real bagels...25 cents apiece. CI Peter
We *had* a bagel place (since closed) called the NYC Bagel. I think plin ones were about 1.10 but they could make some really nice sandwiches on tosted bagels in the 3. to 5. price range.
Some supermarkets have decent bagles sold in packs of six, freshness to be desired.
Say... if a seagul flies over the ocean... what flies over the bay?
Elias
Say... if a seagul flies over the ocean... what flies over the bay?
If a baygull flies over a bay, then an OCEANGULL, not a seagull flies over the ocean.
'If a seagull flies over the ocean and something else flies over the bay, it ain't a bay gull....more like those generic organic whole wheat Communion Wafers that get stuck in my teeth .'
I'd guess if you went to a bagel store, you can get an unbuttered bagel for about 65 cents. Othewise in the morning a buttered bagel and coffee/tea would sell for $1 to $1.40. Depends where you find it.
Most of the bagel places on the North Shore of SI are at fifty cents for a plain bagel. Size and quality vary; my current fav is on Clove Rd just south of Victory, where they run in the 'hefty' size it also helps that they are between home and the highway and open at 0415).
The Dunkin Donuts at Brighton Beach hits $3.12 for two plain, untoasted bagels with cream cheese and jelly (including tax).
plain, untoasted bagels
Untoasted? I don't know any bagel shops where they toast the bagels or ask you if you want them toasted.
Presumably if they're fresh made you don't need them toasted?
A toasted bagel is........a wheelchock.
Really? In Ottawa everywhere toasts them!! The best bread-type bagel is at Tim Horton's (the predominant doughnut store chain in Canada... and I mean REALLY predominant... there are six of them within walking distance of me!!!). The best "true" bagel IMO is Continental Bagel in the Byward Market... a half dozen goes for about CDN $1.50.
If a bagel doesn't challenge your dental work it's a roll.
Yah but a big roll fills your stomach. Bread bagels bounce off the floor...real bagels go 'thud.' Gotta run again....ten minutes past 'used bread bargains' at Food Emporium.
For some reason, DD assumes if you want something ON the bagel, it needs to be toasted first. The first time I tried this at the begoinning of the pick, they went through SIX bagels before getting it right.
Fresh bagels sure don't NEED to be toasted, but some folks do like 'em toasted. I've never been in a bagel shop that couldn't or wouldn't toast bagels upon request. They're yummy toasted and buttered....the butter just melts and sinks in....my cholesterol count is rising just thinking about it!
I like my bagel to be fresh but not straight-out-of-the-oven-warm/hot. I like the butter on top of the bagel half, not melted in.
Different strokes for different folks. :)
I have a pet peeve concerning bagels. Some mornings, when I'm waiting at Ronkonkoma station for my connecting train to Penn (I come in from Medford), I stop at the bagel shop on the east side of the station shops. It's run by several personable young women, who seem from their accents to be Eastern European. Now, what I want is a blueberry or strawberry bagel (yeah, they're tasty) with a very small amount of butter. I have tried, many times, to get the point across about the meager amount of butter I want - among other things, I've said "a very small amount of butter," "just a very little bit of butter," and "just a thin film of butter."
My efforts have been in vain. Invariably, they end up tossing on a thick slab of butter, easily an eighth of a stick or more. It makes no difference what I say. This cannot be attributed to language barriers; though accented, the women have a good command of English. Nor does their practice make good business sense, as butter is a non-insignificant cost item. I just don't understand it.
Peter: Excessive lubrication is a plus. Just scrape off the overload. Save the remains for journal bearings.
I've had the same problem at many bagel shops. I don't think it has anything to do with language. It seems to happen everywhere, so I have come to believe that all bagel shop personnel are trained to heap gobs of butter on each bagel, even if the customer asks for "just a little butter". I came to realize long ago that asking for a little butter didn't do any good, so now I just ask for a buttered bagel, and then I use a plastic knife to remove about 90% of the butter. It takes a few seconds, but what the hell.
I've come to the point where I enjoy a bagel almost any way I get it.
But it does annoy me that one local bagel shop, while it makes a very nice bagel, applies the butter carefully and sparingly, as though they were restoring an old painitng.
But it does annoy me that one local bagel shop, while it makes a very nice bagel, applies the butter carefully and sparingly, as though they were restoring an old painitng.
Heh, I wish the girls at the Ronkonkoma station bagel shop would take a few pointers from your local shop, instead of slathering on the butter like they're troweling mortar.
Speaking of butter on bagels, why is it that a bagel w/cream cheese always costs more than a bagel w/butter, cream cheese costs less than butter.
Peace,
ANDEE
Same reason that a CD costs more than an audiotape and a DVD costs more than a videotape.
Because they think that people think that it's supposed to be more expensive.
... cream cheese costs less than butter.
Where do you do your shopping? At any of our local grocery stores, 1 lb. of name brand butter sells for $3.49 - $3.69, but a half pound package of Philadelphia cream cheese sells for $1.99 ($3.98 / lb.). Also, you use more cream cheese than you do butter on a bagel - twice as much or more, typically.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some mornings, when I'm waiting at Ronkonkoma station for my connecting train to Penn (I come in from Medford)
So I guess you are one of the few people that can arrange their schedules around the 1 or 2 round trips offered from that station. It amazes me that they don't have some kind of normal service at least to Yaphank, but really it should have normal service to Riverhead. Riverhead should be the mainline's equivalent to Speonk.
They can site low rider ship for the reason that they don't increase service there, but it's the chicken and egg scenario. The reason it is low is because the only ones that can use it are the ones whose schedules fit into the LIRR schedule. With all the new construction in Manorville, and the whole area from Ronkonkoma to Riverhead, I'm sure more people would use the line if it ran at least hourly rush hour service, and maybe every 2 1/2 to 3 hour off peak day service (again similar to the way they run the Patchogue to Speonk service).
Just so the rest of you can feel good about yourselves -- since my 401K is paid up and I wear crappy clothes, I figure I might as well just pay for the bagels at Starbuck's in Stamford. I don't even know how much they are. With the big coffee I top 2.50. So, okay, throw me out of the metro area; I know I don't deserve to live here.
If you can afford to buy bagels and coffee at Starbucks, you definately deserve to live here. You're a city boy!
I've been to three different bagel shops in the past couple of months, all in Queens. Two charge 50c per bagel, and the bagels are what I would consider standard size. The third charges 60c, but the bagels are at least a third larger.
I get mine for 50¢ here in Woodhaven. They're very good, even though the store is owned and run by Koreans. Only in NYC ...
There's a bagel shop in Smithtown run by Koreans that my father and brotherw swear make the best bagels on LI.
I also get great pizza in Woodhaven in a parlor run by Puerto Ricans. LOL.
I also get great pizza in Woodhaven in a parlor run by Puerto Ricans. LOL.
The latest type of fast food store I've been laughing about are the Chineese Taco places that have been popping up in Brooklyn and Queens. (Actually, they taste pretty good)! It just strikes me funny that Chineese people are making burittos. There are a few of them in my old neighborhood of Ridgewood. The funniest thing is though that the menus are set up like your typical Chineese restaurant menu.
Instead of:
Chicken with Broccoli, Chicken with Snow Peas, Chicken with String beans, etc, etc...
They are:
Quesadillas with jack cheese, Quesadillas with chicken, Quesadillas with black beans, Quesadillas with guacamole, etc.
And the interiors even look like a Chineese restaurant, with the backlit photos above the counter, all the stainless steel cooking fixtures, and everything. Suprisingly it does taste good though
Chinese resturaunts will make anthing. Go in and order lasagna and they'll whip it up for you.
Chinese resturaunts will make anthing.
Definitely.
As the famous line in "War of the Roses" went ... "woof."
Ouch.....lol.
The latest type of fast food store I've been laughing about are the Chineese Taco places that have been popping up in Brooklyn and Queens. (Actually, they taste pretty good)! It just strikes me funny that Chineese people are making burittos. There are a few of them in my old neighborhood of Ridgewood. The funniest thing is though that the menus are set up like your typical Chineese restaurant menu.
I occasionally get takeout from a Chinese-run Mexican fast food joint on Varick Street just north of Houston. It's actually pretty good.
Well, just when I was about to drop from exhaution, vacation crept up on me. And believe me, it's not a moment too soon.
I decided to do what I've been meaning to do for some time: meet up with SubBus, who posts on this board, for the first time. I e-mailed him and found out his work schedule so I could see what time would be best for me to catch him.
He works the 3 on Mondays out of New Lots in East New York, which is where I live, so I decided to meet him today. I was on his train at the interval he was scheduled to make. I didn't reveal myself to him right off the bat because I wanted to see if he lived up to the mantra that a few Subtalkers have dubbed him.
Well, sure 'nuff, he did! His announcements were loud and clear, he provided enough time to board and get off, and we arrived at the terminals on time. He handled the rush hour crowds like a pro.
At 145th street, I finally knocked on his cab door and told him who I was. He said he had a feeling that I would visit him today. I met his motorman, who seemed to be a nice guy. We talked about the job, the differences in the Divisions (he works in the A; I work in the B), and about our vacations.
It was a pleasure meeting SubBus and hopefully, he'll be able to visit me on my turf soon on the C line. I'd also like to meet up a few others here as well, like Pelham Bay Dave.
Keep up the good work, SubBus. You truly are "The Transit Professional".
Sometimes 'The Lords Graces catches up upon you like a thief in the night.' Funny how you get to catch up on internet friends...I'll catch Luch AAA one day bringing in the EPs to 239th. I wrote off hundreds of Redbird records for scrapping...some went to museums and some went for work train service. As a comm tech, 8875 is a special tube number from the past. 8874/8875 were scrapped, came back a few weeks later as part of a work train unit for 239th inspection and then back to us 180th crew for RTO service inspection. So when I checked up on this mornings assignment....it was 'carbody' on 8875. This car is old, has been beaten upon, changed out one vent window glass,lubricated all door linkages and had a really hard time making storm doors move easily. Everything electrical was A+...I had the previous inspections as backfill. I hope to meet my friend once again.
BMT Road Dogg: WE are all transit professionals! That's why we found a place to communicate and share. 'In the hole, in the hole, in the hole BIE and SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!' CI Peter is OnTheJuice
Point taken and noted, Peter. We are all transit professionals and we all do, in our own way, contribute to the mission of keeping this city moving. I didn't mean to imply that he is the only one; I was simply calling SubBus by the nickname that those Subtalkers that have been fortunate enough to come in contact with him call him.
Perhaps one day I'll get to meet you as well. I'm always glad to meet all of my brothers and sisters in transit.
Road Dogg, why are you giving him all those 'props'? His ego will swell to enormous proportions! :)
BTW, I wasn't aware Mike was covering his home line at all (#3). Always figured he was "The Deuce Man" on his scheduled runs with a tour of duty of the #7 on Sats.
Actually, BMTman, before I left him, I told him that I was going to tell everybody on SubTalk that he was the worst conductor I had ever seen. Unfortunately, he was so good that if I put that lie up here, I'm sure everybody that knows Mike would know it wasn't true. LOL
He does have the 3 once a week and is on the 2 twice; I believe on the 1 twice as well. He's working the Broadway section this pick.
LOL!
SubBus is a true Transit Professional. I rode his train a few times while he was working on the #1 Line.
If you want to meet with me I'll email you my schedule. I'm on the Lex Line Nos. 5,6 Lines. Its nice having a computer make all my announcements so you will not really get to hear me make an Announcement exept for stops Like 59,51,14,Bleeker.
I'd like that, Dave. Send your work schedule to me by the e-mail address that clicking on my handle gives you.
If you go out with him, I can assure you that you'll be impressed not only by his performance and professionalism, he's a hell of a nice guy too and when he does his fall back thing, a hoot to talk with. Definitely recommended. :)
Now I know I have to meet him. Anybody that comes highly recommended by you, Kevin, is a must to meet. :)
You won't be disappointed, he's a GREAT guy. Still have to meet his dad ... father and son, TA issue. Don't see that often. :)
Yeah, how about the unusual PA announcement: 'Last stop. Thank you for riding New York City Transit. Dad, where we goin' for dinner?'
:)
Heh. Now THAT would be worth coming to the city for! :)
You can say that again.:)
That answer is always the same "Son what whatever your mother puts on the table ". I'm still looking for that steak dinner.
LOL! Dave I'll try and call you tomorrow...
Ok Call around or after 1 PM I'll keep the phone on.
Selkirk, Thanks for the kind words! It was fun I wish we can do it again someday. Well there is always Branford. I'll tell you since I work on R142A's I don't get a chance to even talk on the PA that much. The Computer voice does it all for me. All I do now is hit buttons and observe Platfrom. When I get bored I start making my own Announcements.
Heh. We enjoyed the ride very much, but you can't have much fun when you're being so all so serious and busy on a real job. Looking forward to meeting pops someday too, so it definitely looks like Branford ... Nancy's already ran your redbird up yonder, I'm guessing dad let you take the "steering wheel" for a few feet of track hopefully as well. After all, it's a lot more fun up front than playing monkey in the middle. :)
As to your "radio gig" in the redbirds, being freed of citing chapter and verse from the book of sayings of the chairman does give you more time to reboot the console, so probably just as well. If the 142's work like the 143's, you can always play beat the clock with da bingbong ... but yeah, looks like the cars of the future will be staffed by orangutans the way things are going. By then, you'll be playing "guess the enabler" up front hopefully.
If it's ANY comfort, if you suffer a pull apart, you already know what to do since you instantly become the dewd up front in the B portion. Heh.
I'd like that, Dave. Send your work schedule to me by the e-mail address that clicking on my handle gives you.
Yo Dave: someday I'll catch up to you too. We'll fix your computer to make announcements in Hindi and Urdu.....'snake eyes' on the head out display.
Now thats what I'm talking about.
(Keep up the good work, SubBus. You truly are "The Transit Professional". )
Ah, but is he Eric "The Transit Professional Known As Mr R46?" Haven't seen him post in years, but three years ago he had lots of interesting points on the NYCT labor situation from labor's point of view. Interesting to read in the run up to a possible strike.
Larry, that was Eric Graces (sp?). He used the handle 'Transit Professional formeraly known as Mr.R46' Eric left the employ of NYCT and IIRC he is now an Engineer on the PATH system.
That should be "The Transit Professional Formerly Known as Mr. 46". To me, his post about a particular Brighton Super Express should be enshrined as an "Alltime Subtalk Classic".
You must mean this .
Steve, that's the one!
That post was hilarious!!! I wished I've could have been on that train. I dream of "super-express" runs like that. That motorman is my hero (as long as he doesn't get people injured or killed).
Thank you very much, Road Dogg. That interval out of Lenox was unsually crowded. And you know what? My sister was on that train as well. She noticed my voice on the "crowd control" annoucement at Hoyt Street. Definitely coming over to the C and do the 168St thing with you. I wished you came on the 1 so you can see how the gap fillers worked at SF.
Here's a question for all or anyone to answer? What subway lines use to run under the Nevins street subway station? Where did these lines lead to, further out to brooklyn, Manhattan, or the Bronx? Also was this an IRT, or BMT line? Was it a lettered line meaning A,B,C? or was it a numbered line, meaning 1,2,3?
The closest thing to a subway line running under Nevins St Station is the lower level at Nevins. The lower level was a provision built by the IRT with the idea of connecting to the Manhattan Bridge. It was never assigned a letter or a number. It was never finished. NYC decided that the BRT/BMT would have the line going across the Manhattan Bridge.
This is what is down there at Nevins, from photos right from this site:
How many routes and connections were planned for the IRT in Brooklyn?
There was the turnoff that was supposed to go over the Manhattan Bridge.
The turnoff to go down 4th Ave.
Another one that was to go down Lafayette Ave.
The Nostrand Ave extention to somewhere around King's Plaza.
Did I miss any?
Nope. When the contract I IRT was being built in Brooklyn, the 4th Ave subway was also undergoing construction and it's operating company had yet to be decided. Since the 4th Ave. subway was part of the Triborough plan (predating the dual contracts) there was some idea of allowing the IRT to connect to it and to the never built Lafayette Ave. line (later built as part of the IND). The lower level was a provision for the IRT to access both f these lines. However, the Dual Contracts gave the NYMR (BMT) control of the 4th Ave subway and this connection became useless. Do I have my history correct?
Turnoff for the Utica Ave Subway. Still visible from Utica Ave Station(the local track).
"Still visible from Utica Ave Station(the local track)."
North end or South end of the station?
South End(facing New Lots). I think it is more visible on the Manhattan bound local tracks. The New Lots bound tracks have a storage room partially covering the turnout......
From Joe Brennan's site, here's the scoop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One interesting thing emerges from the Straphangers' recent list of Metrocard proposals. In proposing the elimination of the 10% discount for spending $15 on a Metrocard, they raise the usual class-based arguments that we've discussed here. Among other things, the Strappies claim that only 13% of people earning less than $25K per year buy Metrocards in that amount or greater, while higher-income people are much more likely to shell out the 15 bucks. Clearly, the implication is that lower-income people can't afford to spend $15 at one time and hence lose the discount. Except there may be an alternative explanation. Just possibly, people making less than $25K generally don't have jobs, and therefore don't ride on a regular basis - and therefore don't bother spending $15 or more.
>>> people making less than $25K generally don't have jobs, and therefore don't ride on a regular basis - and therefore don't bother spending $15 or more. <<<
To earn $25K, it takes a job paying $12.00 /hr. I suspect there are quite a few jobs in NYC paying less than $12.00 /hr., so you are probably mistaken about them not having jobs.
Tom
Not necessarily. 13% of the people who make less than 25K per year could be split into something like 65% of the people who make 20-25K per year, 50% of those in 5-20K and 99% of those making less than 5K per year.
Including those who have incomes of zero (including children and the bedridden) is a frequent statistical abuse when playing the politics of the poor.
Lies, damn lies and statistics. Always ask to see the source.
[Including those who have incomes of zero (including children and the bedridden) is a frequent statistical abuse when playing the politics of the poor.]
As we were all taught in high school economics, the labor force includes only those who either HAVE jobs or ACTIVELY SEEK employment. In other words, the only zero incomes that can be legitimately counted are unemployed job-seekers.
Children, the bedridden, retirees, and stay-at-home parents DON'T count as part of the labor force, so they don't even even as "umemployed" for the purpose of government labor stats. For Straphangers to include them in its analysis is dishonest at best.
"For Straphangers to include them in its analysis is dishonest at best"
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that they did (I have no way of knowing), just that these types of abuse are frequent.
CG
You have also not demonstrated that the alleged abuse even took place.
This does not mean that you have to agree with the methodology - only that you haven't shown how the bias is expressed.
"You have also not demonstrated that the alleged abuse even took place."
Like I said, I'm not alleging any abuse. Only noting that (1) it occurs frequently in the lowest income bracket -- both intentionally and unintentionally -- when political causes are involved. And (2) that the 13% figure is likely very different at the two extreme ends of the 0-25K income range.
CG
(Clearly, the implication is that lower-income people can't afford to spend $15 at one time and hence lose the discount. Except there may be an alternative explanation. Just possibly, people making less than $25K generally don't have jobs, and therefore don't ride on a regular basis - and therefore don't bother spending $15 or more.)
I compared the result of a TA demographic survey of its customers (presumably done by a consultant) in 1999 and the 2000 census. According to the comparison, subway riders tend to be more affluent, are more likely to be employed, and are more likely to own and least one car! than the average New Yorker.
The latter point indicates that Peter is right. Clearly when the poor travel, they travel by mass transit, but they also travel less and therefore show up less frequently in a survey of those ON THE TRAIN. A household survey that counted every person as one, and categorized them as either a transit rider or not, would show a different result than an on-board survey that in effect counts every trip as one.
"I compared the result of a TA demographic survey of its customers (presumably done by a consultant) in 1999 and the 2000 census. According to the comparison, subway riders tend to be more affluent, are more likely to be employed, and are more likely to own and least one car! than the average New Yorker.
The latter point indicates that Peter is right. Clearly when the poor travel, they travel by mass transit, but they also travel less and therefore show up less frequently in a survey of those ON THE TRAIN. A household survey that counted every person as one, and categorized them as either a transit rider or not, would show a different result than an on-board survey that in effect counts every trip as one. "
Interesting - you are illustrating an example of observational bias here.
Are they traveling less often because they do not have anywhere in particular to go, except to the welfare or unemployment office once per (fill in time interval), and to clinbic appointments or supermarket shopping? I imagine some fit into that category.
Very good observation.
>>> Are they traveling less often because they do not have anywhere in particular to go, except to the welfare or unemployment office once per (fill in time interval), and to clinbic appointments or supermarket shopping? <<<
They have less places to go because they cannot afford to go there. There certainly would be less discretionary travel. If you cannot afford the entry fee, you do not go to a sporting event or a Broadway show or even a day at Coney Island. Free TV becomes virtually the only entertainment. Usually there would not be trips to a supermarket either if there is a neighborhood store within walking distance.
Tom
I admire your standing up for the Strappies. Why don't you register and post at the MB? You could set those people over there straight unless you think it's still dribble. :-)
Good point.
I wonder how that demographic survey was timed. If most of the interviews took place during rush hours, then nearly all interviewed riders would be employed, since rush hour is when the employed tend to travel. If most of the interviews took place off-peak, the employment ratio would be somewhat lower.
I compared the result of a TA demographic survey of its customers (presumably done by a consultant) in 1999 and the 2000 census. According to the comparison, subway riders tend to be more affluent, are more likely to be employed, and are more likely to own and least one car! than the average New Yorker.
I wouldn't be surprised if regular subway riders are more affluent than average city residents even if only employed people are counted on both sides. That's because the subway is best suited for trips into Manhattan, where jobs tend to be higher-paying than jobs in the outer boroughs. People who live and work in the outer boroughs probably are more likely to commute by bus.
The straphangers campaign survey results that were released lacked info needed to draw a proper conclusion.
They also drop discouraged workers from the stats.
"Children, the bedridden, retirees, and stay-at-home parents DON'T count as part of the labor force, so they don't even even as "umemployed" for the purpose of government labor stats. For Straphangers to include them in its analysis is dishonest at best. "
The Straphangers' report does not deal with unemployment or who is included in a labor pool. It looks at household income, and identifies correlations between household income strata and transportation service purchase preferences. They also report the magnitude of error which can be expected in a survey like this. They then draw conclusions from that, which is a separate issue, which can be agreed with or disagreed with.
The survey methodology appears quite sound, and you did not attempt to demonstrate why it was not.
Your posts imply that you have not read the report, and are unfamiliar with its contents, or that you did not understand what you read. To accuse someone of dishonesty before you understand the issues is a bit hypocritical of you, don't you think?
"The survey methodology appears quite sound, and you did not attempt to demonstrate why it was not."
The survey methodology suggests that people in households of lower income do not make use of the available discounts. Let's assume that's correct, though I admit to being surprised at the extent to which low income people don't seem to use even the 11 for 10 discount.
What I find objectionable is that they pretty much go straight from there to the conclusion "Therefore it is socially desirable to abolish the discounts." This strikes me as pure espousal of a particular political viewpoint, and not a logical conclusion drawn from the data.
""Therefore it is socially desirable to abolish the discounts." This strikes me as pure espousal of a particular political viewpoint, and not a logical conclusion drawn from the data."
Yes, that is a legitimate observation. I happen to agree with you on that. My criticism was directed only at the attacks on the survey itself, not on the poster's reaction to its conclusions.
If the goal is to try to help lower-income folks who ride subways, that can be accomplished without messing with the stability of MTA's income from "bulk" Metrocard purchases.
Bulk discounts such as unlimited-rides-for-a-set-period-of-time MetroCard (such as the Fun Pass and the 7-Day MetroCard) are cool with me because they allow folks to stop for lunch at, say, Penn Station or Grand Central and then get back on the subway without extra payments, and they reward frequent riders such as, saaaay, a railfan.... go figure
Bulk discounts such as unlimited-rides-for-a-set-period-of-time MetroCard (such as the Fun Pass and the 7-Day MetroCard) are cool with me because they allow folks to stop for lunch at, say, Penn Station or Grand Central and then get back on the subway without extra payments, and they reward frequent riders such as, saaaay, a railfan.... go figure.
The Strappies didn't have anything to say about the Fun Pass, and if I've got it correctly, they don't mind the 7-day pass but also want one good for five nonconsecutive days. It's their call for abolishing the 10% discount for putting $15 or more on a MC that seems to be the most controversial.
The Fun Pass is great. I don't need to take the subway to work every day, but some days I have a lot of trips to take. So with $4 getting me 4 or more rides some days, and $1.36 per ride otherwise, I can really keep my cost per ride way below the official $1.50.
I couldn't agree with you more, Richard! Before the funpass, I'd have to shell out lots more money for the subways each time I visited NYC. Now, I know exactly how much I'll be spending, and of course I start saving $$ by the third ride! :-) -Nick
"The survey methodology appears quite sound, and you did not attempt to demonstrate why it was not. "
Is the methodology disclosed somewhere on-line?
CG
Yes, it is.
Look at: http://www.straphangers.org/discount.pdf.
That's not really much of a disclosure -- basically just a casual mention that it was a phone survey of NYC residents rather than an in-person survey of riders. It's not clear even whether these calls were made during the day or the evening -- which would have an influence on the results.
One interesting item in the disclosure is that 29% of those called had not taken a bus or subway in the past month. That number strikes me as high -- but only based on my intuition.
CG
"One interesting item in the disclosure is that 29% of those called had not taken a bus or subway in the past month."
That sounds right if you just pick phone numbers at random. A fair number of people never go anywhere that requires a bus or subway. Others stay in Queens or SI and drive everywhere. Others (upper income) always take cabs.
This also explain the high percentage of people who don't use any discounts. If you don't take transit much, why bother with the discounts.
A more representative survey would have gotten responses weighted by how often people use transit, i.e., by asking people in person at different transit locations and different times of the day or week.
"I suspect there are quite a few jobs in NYC paying less than $12.00 /hr., so you are probably mistaken about them not having jobs."
You don't have to suspect. Every janitor, every fast food worker, every office cleaner. Usually also doormen at office and apartment buildings.
On the other hand, these people tend to live stable (if not easy) lives. You'd think most of them could save up or borrow enough money for a $15 card. After all, it would pay for itself in the 11th week. It's probably more an issue of distrust than of total inability to raise the money.
What study should have had a follow up question of why this portion of the population does not choose to take advantage of metrocard offers. That would shed more light on this situation.
In addition the frequency of ridership has a direct relationship with the amount you put on your metrocard at a time
For instance if the rider uses less then 10 rides per week that person would be less likely to lay out $15 for a metrocard then if the rider commuted daily to and from work.
In addition Seniors who pay half fare are less likely to prepay 20 rides at at time thus not adding $15 at a shot
My point is simply there are other factors other then economics at play that results in a lower portion of people earning less then 25k from taking advantage of metrocard discounts (cultural, language barriers, general lack of trust in technology, no common sense etc)
On a side not "doormen at office and apartment buildings" do quite well. They often get nice holiday bonus from the building residents
You made some interesting points there.
"My point is simply there are other factors other then economics at play that results in a lower portion of people earning less then 25k from taking advantage of metrocard discounts (cultural, language barriers, general lack of trust in technology, no common sense etc)"
Excellent observation. Since some poor people do not have bank accounts, do not use ATM cards and don't have credit cards, it stands to reason that, to that group, a subway or bus ride means a token or cash.
"On a side not "doormen at office and apartment buildings" do quite well. They often get nice holiday bonus from the building residents"
Indeed. When in NY I use tokens as tips all the time.
This does not mean the Straphangers' results were wrong - but you have shown why the results are sufficiently NONSPECIFIC so as to not be able to draw the conclusions that they did.
Personally, I like the idea of a two-week MetroCard, a flexible one-week MetroCard, and being able to register your MetroCard so you can replace it (maybe Tom's idea of an insurance premium can work well). How many riders (rich or poor) would not like that?
But I think dropping the discounts is a bad idea.
And of course, not everyone has a full-time job...
Basically, their argument is...
(1) the wealthy can shell out for high-value cards, and thus pay no more than $1.36 per ride;
(2) the poor tend to pay cash or buy low-value cards, and thus pay the full $1.50 (NYCDOT off-peak buses notwithstanding);
(3) to provide an equitable balance, make everybody pay $1.40. The wealthy would pay only 2.9% more, while the poor would save 6.7%.
Of course, that wouldn't increase total fare revenue - it would only redistribute the source of that revenue.
"Did the Strappies jump to conclusions?"
No. They carefully formed their conclusions first based on their political viewpoint, and then gathered data to support those conclusions.
This is a standard methodology of many organizations with strong political stances, on both the left and right.
Working the W today, and approaching Stillwell, I saw that not only was there track 4 veering off to the left, but also a completed track all the way to the far left. (didn't abruptly end like the others) That had been the first section demolished. I said "are they starting the new structure already" (Still dismatling the old), and later went down to the entrance (you can only get out at Mermaid now), and looked through a door to the construction area and saw that they do have the new structure for that track up and in place. I guess this is what will be used when track 4 is demolished. (I was wondering if they would reactivate the ramp to tracks 5 and 6). So I guess the new structure will be going up right as the old comes down, moving right across. (I thought the new would all be built together, except for 7 and 8 which would begin when the others were completed).
At Canal last weekend, they had actually laid down rails on the old ties of J4 (fastened by only a few spikes several feet apart; but not fastened to most of the loose tie plates!) and moved some sort of work train up to the middle of the station! (Past there, the track bed has been excavated, apparently by that work equipment, leaving a deeper, water filled mud surface).
That's the first time I ever saw a train on that side, and perhaps the first time in many of our liftimes, perhaps.
Today, the rails were all removed, but you can see the new track panels beginning at the end of the station.
At Canal last weekend, they had actually laid down rails on the old ties of J4 and moved some sort of work train up to the middle of the station! (Past there, the track bed has been excavated, apparently by that work equipment, leaving a deeper, water filled mud surface).
That's the first time I ever saw a train on that side, and perhaps the first time in many of our liftimes, perhaps.
Cool! Any photos?
Delivery is complete as of this evening. It was a close encounter this evening, as I met them at the East on B lead. Diesels were preparing to shove them in to the Barn. Dwarf signals were set, and the train was cleared to proceed. She should be on Track 12.
It was an accidental encounter as I took an unplanned detour to East 180th St (actually Bronx Park East) from work. The train in front of us was held at Jackson for a sick customer, and we wound up going up the middle at the last moment, being held at the switch.
East 180th St and Unionport Yards have changed dramatically in two years. R-142s now dominate these rails, and Redbirds are the minority.
-Stef
So we get 239ths R142s. 239th CI starts to balk about 180 getting 'dirty trains' and I have to break in and say that these trainsets are dirty. Asthetics are one thing...proper inspection rules. OUR supervisors belay 'clean and shiny' for 'hands on and torquing.' I had to dump some R142 carbody inspection today to handle the mess.
Stef:
Back home after a weekend-plus on Subways and sick as a dog!
7066-7075 and 7076-7085 were both in passenger service as of November 16.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks for that confirmation!
Redbirds show no sign of going away just yet, as cars continue to emerge from the shop with new wheels. Very interesting!
-Stef
George,
We have another delivery complete. Cars 7096-7100 are here and were delivered two hours ago by diesel.
-Stef
Yeah, CI Peter and Co. have been busy doing patchwork on the #5 Redboids.
I knew I heard the diesels going back to Linden Yard this AM as I walking from the L train..............
Another thread brought up the Park Avenue auto tunnel which formerly was used by horsecars and conduit cars, details at Joe Brennan's site.
Now it occurs to me, Boston claims the nation's first "subway" based on the Tremont Street streetcar subway. Everyone accepts this, even though it is not a rapid transit subway like the IRT first subway.
Everyone also discounts the Beach "subway" as being an experimental demonstration line, serving no real purpose. OK, fair enough.
But what about the Park Avenue horsecar/conduit car tunnel. It ran underground for a number of blocks, and apparently even had a station, at 38th Street! According to Brennan, it became an all-streetcar route from 1871 and was electrified from 1898, the year after Boston.
So if Boston can fudge "subway" for trolleys, why can't we do it for horsecars. Park Avenue had stations like Boston (albeit only one) and both "subways" carried surface cars for only part of their routes.
I hope I'm not starting a war between two fine northeastern cities, but sometimes history isn't pretty. ;-)
"Now it occurs to me, Boston claims the nation's first "subway" based on the Tremont Street streetcar subway. Everyone accepts this, even though it is not a rapid transit subway like the IRT first subway."
As much as I appreciate the nostalgia of the Green Line, there are still parts of me that wish this line was heavy rail. If it continues to be light rail, the T needs to add more 3-car trains, and therefore will have to increase it's electrical power. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in the number of tracks..but somehow it's probably not feasible to widen the stations and tunnels, or to build another tunnel underneath (meaning inbound on one level, outbound on the other). -Nick
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in the number of tracks.
From http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/us/boston/bostontr.gif it looks like there are four tracks between Park St and Boylston - okay, this is a very short section, but there are leads South of Boylston which could be used for a second trolley-subway line, taking over the line to Lechmere, with the existing Green Line running as far as Park St.
Those leads are for the long closed Broadway incline at Tremont Street, which has not used since 1962. The trolley lines that fed the Broadway incline were long ago converted to bus.
"it looks like there are four tracks between Park St and Boylston"
This is correct, but only two of the tracks are used at Boylston, while four are used at Park St. There is probably a way to re-open those other tracks, but with all the other stations having one track in each direction, I don't know how much good that would do; There would still be the possibility of congestion after outbound trains pass Boylston. -Nick
If the T would convert the Silver Line bus to light rail, it could use those tracks to hook it into the Green Line at Boylston. But is there enough capacity for five trolley lines? There's a loop to turn cars at Park Street (just before where the Green Line goes from four to two tracks). But would it be enough?
But is there enough capacity for five trolley lines?
The used to run the Watertown, Boston College, Beacon St, Riverside and Arborway lines on the Boyleston St subway, while running Lenox St cars on the Tremont St Subway. Their shortage is trolley cars not track capacity.
Could be. I think a few more lines ran there too, a long time ago. I continue to hope that Washington Street will get some form of rail transit, although the Silver Line does seem to be more popular than the 49 bus it replaced.
Is there any relics of the old Main Line El left along Washington Street?
I saw a picture at urbanphoto.org that showed what looked like a control tower at Dudley Square next to where the buses terminate. The caption said that it was a remnant of the Washington Street el.
Until the Silver Line bus rapid transit came along, and Wash Street was repaved last Spring, you could see where the columns were.
One of the two canopies at Dudley Station is from the el, and the tower is now a restroom for MBTA employees.
On Herald Street, east of Washington, you can see where the columns for the Atlantic Ave El were (on the stone wall overlooking the Mass Pike.) The substation on Atlantic Ave was also used for the el.
You can also see some signs near Sullivan Square of the Everett El - pedestrian bridge abutments over the rotary (traffic circle), a column near the MBTA police dog training yard, and some columns in the river near the Charlestown bus garage. The Charles River Bridge middle roadway still has the stringers for the el.
And, the Northampton Station and canopy and special work from Forest Hills is up in Maine now at the Seashore Trolley Museum, along with 0210, 0521, 0997/01000, and 01178/01179.
FYI, the highway overpass at Sullivan Sq is also being removed, so the character of the area near the Schrafft's Building will change markedly soon.
Check Jonathan Belcher's essay on the NETRANSIT website for details on all abandoned MBTA stuff. Jonathan is an excellent detail-oriented historian. Ron Carson's Orange Line video is also excellent, to gain a sense of the local geography.
"But is there enough capacity for five trolley lines?"
I don't think so. Years ago five lines did run, but the T has more riders now. With all the dwell time in the stations for passengers to arrive and exit, another line would just add to the congestion of trolley cars that already exists during rush hours. I don't know if one more line would reduce the amount of people per trolley car. -Nick
That's what I thought. Perhaps that's one reason why the T didn't make the new Washington Street service a branch of the Green Line. But isn't there a loop past the Park Street station? Couldn't one of the existing lines, maybe the B or C, be turned there during rush hours? Then you would still have four lines between Park and Gov't Center if Washington St were to get trolley service and connect to the Green Line at Boylston.
IIRC Park Street has two loops, with one of them that lets you go thru vs. around. Great place to see a lot of LRV action.
The inner northbound track at Park Street loops to become the inner southbound track. Trolleys are short-turned when there is congestion ahead at Government Center and/or other operational reasons.
"But isn't there a loop past the Park Street station? Couldn't one of the existing lines, maybe the B or C, be turned there during rush hours?"
Yeah, you could do that. But there will still be lots of congestion before Park Street...the Central Subway beginning at Kenmore gets so jammed. Also, if B or C riders have to get out at Park Street have to change for further service, that means more people will be on the Park St. platform as well. -Nick
Back in the mid to late 1960's there were 2 loops at Park St, 1 past Government Center and 1 at North Station. Only the outer loop at Park St was not used to turn around cars.
That would be true too. How crowded does the C line get during rush hours? You wouldn't want to have too many people crowding up Park Street. Too bad they have only two tracks past the Park Street loop.
All lines on the Green are crush-loaded at peak hours, but only because of bunching -- around 1/2 the C trains arrive at Kenmore with less than 60 paxs, and around 2/3 of the B and D trains arrive at Kenmore less than 60 paxs, at the peak of the rush hour. This is because the B and D bunches like hell, so 2/3 of the trains are following the other 1/3 that are packed to the gills. They form bunches of about 3.
AEM7
Thanks, I wanted to find that out.
BTW, I took a trip to Boston today and found a little time to ride the Silver Line. It was surprisingly fast - I went from Boylston to Dudley in about 12 minutes. But then again, this was on a Saturday. It's probably different during rush hours with more traffic and more people riding.
From the track map, the existing B-C-D-E Lines, plus the A line if it is ever restored would have to turn at Park St - as this is a loop, the capacity shouldn't be any lower than the track they've all been running on to get there.
The "Silver Line" would take over the Lechmere Branch and wouldn't share trackage with the Green Line.
In other words, the Green Line would use the inner tracks and the Silver the outer.
Good idea?
Well it would definitely give Washington Street riders excellent access to Gov't Center, North Station, the Fleet Center and the Science Museum. But everyone who rides the Green Lines would have to transfer to the Silver Line at Park. During rush hours and when there are Celtics or Bruins games or concerts, you'd have a mass exodus of people coming the Green line trolleys at Park piling onto Silver Line trolleys (or whatever other vehicle they would use). But if only one of the four existing lines terminated at Park during rush hours, then, I think, there would be enough capacity for a Washington Street trolley line.
Maybe the Washington Street trolley line could be grade separated, for instance on an El... no wait, that would make MBTA look dumb...
Yes, they'd have even more controversy if they put an el over Washington Street. Washington Street is fairly wide in the Roxbury area so they could probably put a trolley in a center median, which they probably should have done with the present Silver Line. If there's no capacity in the Green Line subway, maybe they should consider an all-surface line using Skoda Astra LRVs and turning on Temple Street like the current bus does (but extend it to Egleston Square, a little further south of Dudley Square). Or (and this would be much more expensive and take much longer to build) build a branch of the Orange Line from NE Medical Center to Egleston Square.
"plus the A line if it is ever restored would have to turn at Park St"
The MBTA has made it pretty clear that this line won't exist again. I think that is one of the reasons they finally ripped out that track within the last couple of years. -Nick
If the Green Line became heavy rail, the B, C and E lines would have to either be put underground the whole way or be eliminated. It would be suicide for the T to do that. They've recently been ordered to restore light rail service to Arborway, which has been suspended since 1985. And it's not like the Silver Line bus on Washington Street (replacement for the Orange Line el) hasn't been without controversy.
"If the Green Line became heavy rail, the B, C and E lines would have to either be put underground the whole way or be eliminated"
I know there is not enough money to do this, but I would love for those lines to be underground instead of surface vehicles. With the amount of traffic on Commonwealth Ave, Beacon St., and Huntington Avenue...putting those lines underground would add more lanes to the streets, and possibly eliminate some of those awful roundabouts that are everywhere (especially on Beacon St.!). I would like to see this done whether the Green Line remains light rail or is converted to heavy rail. -Nick
Probably if the B line continued underground to just past Packards Corner (where the old A line used to branch out), it would speed it up significantly. The B alone has too many surface stops as it is. I have to admit, even thought they're slow as hell, seeing the B, C and E trolleys running in the middle of the street is one of the things I like about them. We don't have this in New York anymore and we probably won't unless Bob Diamond's Red Hook, Brooklyn, trolley project finally gets the money it deserves to start running.
Yeah, I understand what you are saying. Don't get me wrong, seeing the trolleys on the street is such a great thing...I do know that. But as far as convenience goes for customers, putting it underground would be a better idea.
I also agree with you about the B line and all their stops...They could easily eliminate 1/3-1/2 of the stops that are there. the T doesn't need to stop near McDonalds, and then 500 feet away at Packard's corner. There are too many situations on the B where the stations are just too close together. I wouldn't mind seeing them charge for outbound service, especially on the B...then maybe BU students wouldn't use it as their school shuttle, which could also reduce some of the crowding. -Nick
That too would help. Fewer stops would speed the B up. And they could make some money charging for outbound trips, maybe not a huge amount, but something.
"And they could make some money charging for outbound trips, maybe not a huge amount, but something"
True..any bit of money helps! -Nick
Paul
If the word "subway" means underground passage (regardless of mode), then you are correct is assuming so.
And then you have London with a early "subway" which was actually a steam engine pulling cars :-(
And then you have London with a early "subway" which was actually a steam engine pulling cars :-(
But at least its the lineal decendent of the modern Underground. I wonder how much original structure remains from the 19th century?
And then you have London with a early "subway" which was actually a steam engine pulling cars. ... I wonder how much original structure remains from the 19th century?
The original Metropolitan Railway line from Paddington to Liverpool Street is still pretty much in its original condition, at least as far as tunnel structure is concerned. Obviously the track has been replaced many times (and electrified) and the stations rebuilt or modernised.
But between stations you can still see the smoke-blackened heavyweight brickwork structures. The line is mixture of cut and cover, and a smaller amount of just plain cut (to let the smoke out). I suspect since electrification more cut has turned into cut and cover.
Whenever I hear the dates for subways, like Boston's tunnel opening in 1897 and New York's first underground line opening in 1904, I feel the need to point out that there were elevated lines serving the same niche as subways long before. I don't know when the first elevated transit lines began running in New York, but weren't they running as early as the 1870s? I know Chicago had elevated lines at an early date, too.
Mark
Manhattan's EL first ran in 1867. Chicago's first L was the South Side Rapid Transit which opened in 1892 using Steam Locomotive hauling coaches.
Moving internationally, doesn't Budapest have some claim to the earliest subway?
Budapest's opened in 1893, about 30 years after London first went below street level, so I guess they have the second oldest subway in the world.
Mark
Liverpool England opened an underground suburban railway tunnel between central Liverpool and Birkenhead across the Wirral River in 1886 using steam power. It was electrified in the early 1900's. I got an excellent book 3 years ago about its history The Line Beneath the Liners from a internet British railbook dealer (forgot the name). All I know is that this book was hard to find as it is out of publication.
Athens Greece built a downtown underground portion of it's Athens-Pireaus suburban Ry in the mid 1890's, which was electrified in 1904. Glasgow inaugurated it's subway in 1896, initially using cable traction, and electrified around 1935. Finally, in Vienna, the Stadtbahn was opened in the mid 1890's using steam engine. It alternated between tunnel and elevated structure. It closed after WWI, and was reopened after overhead wire electrification in the mid 1920's.
I will post the webpages about the history of the above systems later.
I forgot to add the 100% Istanbul Turkey underground funicular, which opened in 1876 on the European side of the City.
Has anyone got a map showing the Docker's Umbrella (aka the Liverpool Overhead Railway)?
Earlier this week, I promised to post web addresses that have history with photos about Pre-1900 European rapid transit systems
http://www.isap.gr/ Athens to Pireaus suburban rapid transit
http://www.soft.net.uk/nodename/index.htm Glasgow subway
http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/%7Eprillih3/metro/ excellent webpage about Vienna Stadtbahn history
http://www.durak43.com/transport_systems.htm Has picture of original Istanbul Tunel Underground Funicular car and other photos of Turkish LRT and rapid transit systems
http://www.sera.co.uk Has photos of early London Underground electrification and Mersey Railway (Liverpool underground suburban railway)
Dave Pirmann,
Would you be interested in adding the above webpages to the links section, perhaps under rapid transit history?
I have an interest in rapid transit history of systems outside NYC, and can help find more pages to forward to you.
I think Budapest is the oldest electric subway.
IIRC, London had their first tube line running with electricity in 1890.
This the City & South London Railway.
Ah yes, the wonderful reason why the Southernmost point on the London Underground is on the Northern Line (Morden). (And in case you're wondering, no, the Northernmost point isn't on the Northern Line - it's on the Met, but I can't remember whether it's Amersham or Chesham).
The key here is how you define "subway". I suppose a colloquial definition is a cut-and-cover tunnel built largely for the purpose of removing vehicles (railway cars or trains?) from a congested environment (as opposed to a geographic obstacle, like a river or mountain). If we agree on that definition, the ex-LIRR tunnel under Atlantic Avenue (Cobble Hill), that dates from 1844, is the oldest I know of in the USA. I think the oldest tunnel anywhere is Marc Brunel's tunnel under the Thames in London, which I believe is now part of the London Underground, though thoroughly rebuilt.
I havent checked Joe Brennan's website, but I believe the Park Ave tunnel existed as an open cut before being roofed over.
Anyone care to follow up????
The key here is how you define "subway".
Well, of course. I would tend to count the IRT First Subway as the first "true" subway in the U.S. by dint of the fact that light rail and subway systems have different historical backgrounds, though the line gets more muddied all the time.
Claiming the Boston line as "first" is fair insofar as it was the first U.S. line built as a subway, particularly an electric subway, and not as a tunnel or a street bypass to get under an intersection or a hill.
But claiming Boston as first requires the "fudge" that it was a trolley rather than a rapid transit subway, like New York's or, for that matter, Boston's other subway lines.
But the Park Avenue route was also a streetcar "subway" and had a station, which enhances its claim enormousely, IMO. Put it this way--once you start fudging, where do you stop?
I havent checked Joe Brennan's website, but I believe the Park Ave tunnel existed as an open cut before being roofed over.
I think he said the roofover was 1850, before it became a streetcar only tunnel. Many of the oldest tunnels were originally open cuts, including Atlantic Avenue-Cobble Hill, the Culver Cut and much (most? all?) of the Park Avenue route north of Grand Central.
Well, of course. I would tend to count the IRT First Subway as the first "true" subway in the U.S. by dint of the fact that light rail and subway systems have different historical backgrounds, though the line gets more muddied all the time.
Boston was still first. Main Line Elevated trains used the Tremont St Subway from Tremont St to North Station before the Washington St Subway was completed. This opertion lasted between 1901 and 1908.
Boston was still first. Main Line Elevated trains used the Tremont St Subway from Tremont St to North Station before the Washington St Subway was completed. This opertion lasted between 1901 and 1908.
What did the trolleys do during that time period?
What did the trolleys do during that time period?
They used the Boyleston St portal to gain access to the inner tracks. They then used the loop at Park St to return.
Cars from the north could still use the middle tracks from North Station and loop back at Court Sq.
There were a temporary wooden platforms at Boyleston, Park, Court Sq, Adams Sq and Haymarket Sq.
HI PAUL:
In terms of being purpose-built for high-platform rapid transit (and still used for its designed purpose) I think the IRT certainly gets the prize as "first subway in the USA". As for Budapest, while the cars loaded at track level, I don't believe they ran in mixed traffic once they left the tunnel. I think they stayed on private ROW. So even though they didn't have high platforms, the Budapest line is not a "streetcar subway" in the same context as Philadelphia, Newark, or the MBTA Green Line. Anyone been to Budapest to confirm this?
But, I thought the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel was purpose-built as a tunnel, and never existed in service as an open cut. I had believed that the LIRR trains (Then Brooklyn and Jamaica RR) turned south about Boreum Place and used another street parallel to Atlantic St/Ave to reach the waterfront, skirting the most severe grades on Cobble Hill from about 1834 to 1844, when the tunnel was completed. Am I incorrect?
Hi, Conrad,
About everything I know about the Cobble Hill/Atlantic Ave. tunnel is here.
As you see, it was originally a cut. It would seem the B&J used only Atlantic, but the iron horses were assisted by the fleshy kind. :)
HI PAUL: Thanks for the link! I have a fairly good collection of David Rogoff's (excellent) NY Division articles on NYC subway and transit archaeology/trivia, he seems to have been quite prolific in the 50's and 60's. Its a shame I never met him, he was (is?) an excellent, meticulous historian.
So perhaps the off-Atlantic Ave route I heard allusions to was a shoofly built while Atlantic was torn up for the cut/tunnel construction. I think the B&J began operations in 1834, ten years before the cut was built.
BTW, I believe the contractor for one or both phases of the tunnel's construction was Robert Beard (Baird?), who also supposedly partially leveled Cobble Hill about 1820 and used the earth to create the Erie Basin area. The Greg O'Connell development in Red Hook is in Beard's old warehouses. (The source for this info is my rusty memory, and some yellowed clippings in the bottom of my at-home file cabinets, so any old Brooklynites, please jump in with better data). I heard Beard used a homebuilt railway on Cobble Hill that was the first of any sort in Brooklyn.
We had a similar effort here in Boston, Beacon Hill was flattened about 1806 and the Back Bay was partially filled in with the spoil. A short purpose-built tramway on Beacon Hill was supposedly the first railway in Massachusetts, the Granite Railway in Quincy (practically in my back yard) holds the title as the first commercially successful one. The ROW is I-93 now, but the Mass Bay RRE gives excellent walking/van tours of the quarry and wharf sites every summer. A piece of rail is on display at East Milton Square, right above the I-93 cut.
Dave Rogoff passed away quite suddenly about 1969, I think. He was one of the very best of the NYC transit historians.
He had a true love of history and loved research. When he knew I was researching the history of the West End Line, I received a post card from him every few days containing some interesting nugget of history he had turned up.
Your surmise about an Atlantic Avenue shoo-fly makes a lot of sense to me. I didn't know Erie Basin was created from Cobble HIll excavation. That's almost two centuries ago!
Since Boston consistently ranks behind NYC in just about every category imaginable, I'm willing to throw them this meaningless bone.
That so?
Hmmm, quality of life? Theirs is better. Crime? Lower there. Cost of living? Also lower there. Political BS? Way lower there! Sports fans? At least they're loyal. Ability to get big projects done? Boston's got NYC beat there. Say what you want about the Big Dig construction and the cost overruns, but at least it's being done. How much progress is being done on the 2nd Avenue subway right now?
The Tremont Street subway was rapid transit from 1901-1909.
Speaking of underground streetcars, does anyone know which year Philadelphia opened its Market Street Subway-Surface trolley?
1906, along with the Market St. Elevated.
This was the result of me clicking on 168 Street - Broadway on the MTA Subway Map. Quite amusing...
168 Street Broadway on MTA Map
I think the TA made a little bo-bo?
Robert
No, the search results were correct.
It gabe you all off the services on BROADWAY!
No, the search results were correct.
It gabe you all off the services on BROADWAY!
No, that is wrong. He clocked on 168th/Broadway. The N doesn't go anywhere near there. Sure, it runs on Broadway, but not that part of Broadway. That's like clicking on 23rd/Lex, and getting 6,N,R,F,V,1,9,C,E. Sure they all stop on 23rd Street, but not where you want to go! If you click on any of the other stations up there you get only the stations on the line.
Yow!
A boo-boo made by a bo-bo ?
No, it specifically said 168th St/Broadway. If your supposition was correct, then where's the Q?
Looks like a simple error. Scary, since so many rely on the MTA's official site for vital information.
So I guess that means the A train is going to Astoria and the C is Forest Hills-bound now. (-:
And no way to let them know - is there ??
Now THAT is a GO! :D
I wonder how the N, R, and W get up there with the north side closed...
Seems there are quite a few boo-boos. Random clicking produced the 4 & 5 at Utica Ave (but no 3) and the B'way/Nassau complex which correctly shows the bullets on a page titled "A, C, J, M, Z, 1, 2, 4, 5".
Hello To All,
I just recently saw a posting about being "Beware of Railfans with Cameras"!! Based on the word that the FBI has put out about the possibilty of Al Qaeda targeting American Railroads, can anyone tell me if the NYC Subway, Metro North and LIRR have adopted an offical policy prohibiting the use of cameras or camcorders anywhere near or on board these trains.
After growing up in NYC, and also after retiring after 20years in the US Navy, on my visits to NYC since 1999 I have been doing my railfaning with a camcorder. It now seems as if I can't do that anymore, a simple hobby, something that me and my son enjoy doing. Al Qaeda has got us so scared that we are becoming prisoners in our own country, but that is just my opinion!!
You know what, intelligence data has been either already collected, AAR maps studied, and researched on the web. Plus anyone can buy the latest Locomotives and Cars Cyclopedia for the tech specs.
So much data is out there, why pick on us (railfans) because it's our hobby.
Congrats on your 20 years with DON. Make sure you keep the DD214 out of public view because of your SSAN.
Not necessarily official, but some fat shi- on the LIRR who claimed to be an engineer went up in my face and told me to put away my camera like it was a bomb. I was going to take pictures of Bilevels going into the tunnel (morning rush) but noooo. He said "I don't know who you are and what you'd be using these pictures for but after September 11 you know.." So I wouldn't get kicked off and my M7 connection/ride at Jamaica ruined I just said Yes Sir and put it away. Took it out again and snapped the M7 interior and again at long beach. It's quite sad.
Some MNRR track worker tried that w/ me, but I was just assertive with him and headed off any demand that I put the camera away.
There is absolutley no rule against photography as long as you're not on private property. No railroad employee can order you to stop, or detain you if you don't. Feel free to photograph anywhere you like. Politely remind railway employees about their complete lack of power in making you stop. If they should call police, politely remind them that you're not breaking the law.
I'm thinking about pulling out my old camera just to pick a fight with these @ssholes.
...Now if only everyone would do the same.
I;ve said this before, and I'll post it again:
"If anything, everyone should get their cameras out, and go enjoy taking photos of trains if that's what makes your day. photograph bridges, tunnels, and anything else you want to photograph. There's no law against it, and this is the perfect season to do it.
The idiots that would rather everyone throw away their cameras and conform to the new order of dubyaisms are the ones that should be looked at with suspicion, not photographers who harm no one taking their photos, and if anything are providing this country with an extra layer of security. I'm quite sure 99.9% of those interested in photographing trains and the like would report immediately anything that looks truely suspicious, and who better to know what looks suspicious that someone that regularly watches and photographs? We are a volunteer force. Eyes and ears that look around and 'patrol' places along the tracks that you'll never find a police officer. We're everyday heros, and most of us don't even know it.
Those who would rather us not take photographs of anything are the true villians. They've given in to fear and are doing the terrorists dirty work for them. They have, if you will, succumb to the dark side. they would rather everyone be controled and inspected, carrying around national ID cards and perhaps even having to 'seil heil' dubya along the way...
it is long overdue that we all stand up for our rights, dignity and respect. Anything less is give in to the terrorists. Armed only with my cameras and a copy of the law in my pocket, and my lawyers' phone number, I for one will stand my ground. I don't exactly like that the front line has been brought to my doorstep and that some paranoid lunatics think I'm the enemy, but I'm not about to back down. i love taking photos, and I will never stop. The only way they'll get my camera or film is from my cold dead hands.
-J. A. Anastasio"
Thank you and good night.
The idiots that would rather everyone throw away their cameras and conform to the new order of dubyaisms
Take your political attacks and shove them up your @ss. The president has nothing to do with arrogant and paranoid railroad employees and the misguided police officers who think they have the powers to control what can be photographed.
I'm sorry, but Joe does have the right of free speech (at least until Ashcroft gets Daddy's sUPREME cOURT to overturn the first amendment. ken starr and the DISloyal opposition harassed Bill Clinton to the point that the Executive Branch's effectiveness was certainly compromised, directly leading to 9-11. If the bu$h cabal is not removed in 2004 and it's activities thouroughly investigated AND PROSECUTED, that Constitution that starr likes to wrap himself will be worthless.
It amazes me how stupid some people can get.
>>> It amazes me how stupid some people can get. <<<
And now that you have had this burst of insight and self criticism, will you be changing your views? :-)
Tom
For the benefit of another angle on this, we're not into taking pictures of trains, railyards, bridges and such. Just so's ya know where I'm coming from on this. An interesting incident occurred last week down in New Paltz, NY. Seems an "out of towner" came to visit and took some pictures of the village. When this person got home to their residence in another state, they had their pictures developed.
Lo and behold, one of the prints contained a picture of two yoots vandalizing a New Paltz police cruiser. The person sent a copy of the photo to the New Paltz Police Department and they arrested the perpetrators. Were it NOT for this person's pictures, the guilty would never have been identified, and the photos WILL result in a conviction. Hmmm.
What's a "yoot"?
Heh. Rent "My Cousin Vinny" ... Judge Herman Munster presiding. :)
>>Heh. Rent "My Cousin Vinny" ... Judge Herman Munster presiding.<<
Yeah, and Joe Pesci looking, dressing and tawking Brooklynese in the deep south was as obvious as a fart in a crowded elevator !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I *loved* that movie. And man, you live in NYC long enough, you learn how to get that hip action in there to squeeze them off in such a way that everybody looks at the person to your right. :)
Oh ... dunno if you knew this or not, but that picture Dougie took of you threatening CI Peter with the Arnine buttplug got published in BERA's "Tripper" publication. :)
You'se famous!
>>Oh ... dunno if you knew this or not, but that picture Dougie took of you threatening CI Peter with the Arnine buttplug got published in BERA's "Tripper" publication. :)
You'se famous!<<
I don't recall the picture, but was CI Peter facing me or his back to me ? That way you can tell if I was threatening him or not...har har har har !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Drop me an email, already had the picture, will send it to you if you can't get to the member's section and check out the tripper online there ... it's a CLASSIC. :)
What's a yute?
Sheesh, you're worse in catching a cue than Train Dude.
The correct reply would have been either:
Two YOOOUTHES
OR
The Defendants
Whoops! Senior moment. Forgot my lines. :)
Yes, photography is great for catching criminals, a good reason not to crack down on it. My real concern is that cracking down on photography will be used to make it hard for journalists to document official abuse such as police brutality and the like.
Mark
An amusing concept is that we're debating this while all over the country, cameras are being placed in every woodpile by the authorities. But I digress. I'll leave it at this - I was permitted graciously onto CSX property with the approval of the authorities with some friends to stand quietly in the employee parking lot to watch the trains, take a couple of pictures and had no problems at all.
The REASON was that we called the railroad's police ahead of time, asked what the "rules" were, gave them our identifying information and license plate number ahead of time. They were appreciative, and we were left alone. There ARE ways of continuing to enjoy the "hobby," it merely requires a little bit of common sense and coordinating effort. I'd suggest only that "guerilla photography" when caught at it will definitely result in an unhappy day. You CAN access railroad property IF you have permission, and are respectful of the rules you work out ahead of time.
I was thinking of doing this, but I didn't wanna miss the M7.
"There is absolutley no rule against photography as long as you're not on private property. No railroad employee can order you to stop, or detain you if you don't."
Once again - you are not technically correct. NYCT has no rule against photography on its property (that's right- according to NY law, the property belongs to NYCT) as long as you do not meet certain criteria. As I've preciously cited in other posts, those criteria are:
You are not misrepresenting yourself.
You are not photographing for commercial reasons.
You are not photographing in non-public areas.
You are not using lights or reflectors or tripods.
You are not blocking or impeding customers or creating an unsafe condition.
Photography contrary to the above, requires a permit.
If you want to see the exact wording, read the following
The following is excerpted from:
“Rules of Conduct” by NYC Transit 6/99
NYCRR Chapter XXI
Metropolitan transportation Authority
Subchapter C
Conduct and Safety of the Public
Section 1050.1
Authorization & Purpose
(a) The provisions of sections 1203-a(3) of the Public Authority Law provide the NY City Transit Authority & Manhattan & Bronx Surface Operating Authority with the powers to make rules governing the conduct and safety of the public in the use and operation of the transit facilities of those authorities.
Section 1050.6
Use of the Transit System
(c7) No person shall misrepresent through words, signs, leaflets, attire or otherwise such persons affiliation with or lack of affiliation with or support by any organization, group, entity or cause including any affiliation with or support by the Authority or the MTA or any of their programs such as Music Under the Streets or Arts for Transit.
Section 1050.9
Restricted Areas & Activities
(a) No person, except as specifically authorized by the Authority shall enter or attempt to enter into any area not open to the public, including but not limited to train operator’s cabs, conductor’s cabs………..tracks, roadbeds, tunnels, shops, barns, yards ………………..
(c) Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors and tripods may not be used.
Section 1050.10
Fines & Penalties
Pursuant to section 1204(5-a) of the Public Authorities Law, any person committing one or more violations of these rules shall be subject to either:
(a) criminal prosecution in the criminal court of the City of New York, which court may impose a fine not to exceed twenty-five dollars or a term of imprisonment for not longer than ten days or both.
(b) Civil penalties by the transit adjudication bureau in an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars per violation (exclusive of interest or costs assessed thereon)
Thankyou Train Dude for taking the time to research and post!!!
Ah ... but will anybody PAY ATTENTION? We'll be back for the bonus round after this important message ...
...i am now having illusions
like the rap group
cypress hill......
...i am now having illusions
like the rap group
cypress hill......
I can't blame them. These people want to kill us. You can't be too careful. I would not object to a ban on non-authorized use of cameras or camcorders in the transit systems.
I would not object to a ban on non-authorized use of cameras or camcorders in the transit systems.
ONLY if there is a way for railfans to obtain permits.
You realize that such a ban would do nothing to improve safety. The information needed to carry out a successful attack on a transit can simply be memorized by an observant person. Do you propose we all wear blindfolds while riding transit? If you ban the use of cameras, it will probably do nothing to stop or detect the terrorists with their memories or, maybe, duh, their hidden cameras consealed in a book or a sandwitch or a cell phone. They have those these days and don't think a well financed insurgency team wouldn't invest in some.
If your plan the police will still have to try to identify terrorists by "look", the only differance is that millions of people won't be able to engage in honest activities. Only a fool would trade his freedoms for nothing in return.
And rest assured, if the railroads and subways ARE a target, they've ALREADY GOT their pictures. Stopping it now is about as useful as sealing off the Afghani/Pakistan border two weeks AFTER sending in the troops.
Actually, pictures are most useful for bridges, as in: here's the weakest point; bring the explosives there and detonate. I can see why the TBTA doesn't want people taking pictures of their bridges.
For tunnels, where poison is the most likely route, you want to be standing on the platform, observing air flows, etc., and taking detailed notes. Maybe the police should consider arresting Straphanger staffers taking copious notes on their clipboards. People who are observing tph and dwell times, looking at signals, or measuring how deep the #7 is below the 8th Ave lower platform, or other things we discuss here, are also obviously suspect.
(Since this is Subtalk, I should make it clear that was a joke.)
I would not object to a ban on non-authorized use of cameras or camcorders in the transit systems.
I certainly do not agree.
uhm, NO.
It's not Al Qaeda, it's the gov't that wants to wipe their ass with the Constitution.
And to add, how many wars, threats, etc, has the US gone thru without the need of gathering info and tracking its citizens? Why are all these measures suddenly needed now? Surely the Cold War would have warrented such action. Think about it.
> gathering info and tracking its citizens?
> Surely the Cold War would have warrented such action
HUAC ?
-Dave
You got me :-) There was also the Japanese detention camps. Before I wrote that, I had just read a news article about a court ruling that trashed the 4th amendment. There is also a gov't agency trying to aquire the power of gathering info on every electronic transaction you make. AFAIK, both have never been done before.
That same agency just announced a requirement that EVERY prescription drug purchase (including birth control) must be reported also. Good thing I don't get sick ...
Good thing I don't get sick ...
Heck, the only thing they'll say about me is "His blood pressure was HOW high?!?!"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, a lot of that did go on during the Cold War. Think about the antics of Joseph McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, and Richard Nixon. It was disturbing then, and it's disturbing now.
Mark
When you really think about it, anyone with a camera can be thought as a terrorist. We are soon to become a paranoid society because of 9/11, that anyone with a camera or camcorder, can be thought as a terrorist. If I am visiting a city that I have never been to, what is to stop me from taking pictures? do I now have to use my own discretion or otherwise face imprisonment?
I'm interested in taking tech pics and video for training purposes. One of my sups jokes in conversation 'your camera isn't running is it.' Apart from all the 'helleballo,' to the best of my knowledge, casual photography or motion pictures for personal use without the aid of fixed tripods obstructing the flow of passengers is still OK. Of course, I can be wrong....I'm still ressurecting Redbirds! CI Peter
...i am now having illusions
like the rap group
cypress hill......
From this morning's New York Post. Hard to tell if this is actual opposition on Bruno's part or just him taking a no tax position as a future negotiating ploy when the city's budget requests get to the legislature.
What does he suggest instead?
He doesn't, at least in the Post article, which is why is sounds more like a negotiating ploy to me -- Bloomberg will get his commuter tax after negotiations in the leg, when Bruno gets some sort of concession for the Albany area from the NYC reps and state senators and Pataki.
Bruno has ALWAYS maintained that the city's financial shortfalls are a DIRECT result of RENT CONTROL depressing real estate values. His reasoning is that commercial property (apartments) are valuated at one year's annual rental income for the building. Property taxes in turn are based on that valuation. If RENTS went up, so would the value of the property, and in turn, so would the city's receipts. Joe also believes that the city subsidizes too many "silly things" like parks, daycare, after school programs, PAL leagues and such and by doing so is diverting money from more important needs.
Joey's been VERY consistent about this in all his years as senate majority leader. And yes, he feels that the subways and busses should be PROFITABLE and not subsidized. No joke, no politics here, just FACT.
Bruno has ALWAYS maintained that the city's financial shortfalls are a DIRECT result of RENT CONTROL
Well, at least Joe Bruno is right about something.
The whole thing disturbs me. By emphasizing the commuter tax, Bloomberg has (intentionally or not) put a smokescreen over a much bigger issue--faced with his first fiscal crisis (and he's hardly the first New York mayor to face a fiscal crisis) his first response is tax-tax-tax-tax and cut-cut-cut-cut, big time.
He's throwing out decades of experience that restored New York City to a premier business position that it hadn't previosuly enjoyed since the '20s.
In the process, he's making the City unneeded enemies at a time of general good will. He's practicing the policies of Wagner and Lindsay that put the City in its worst hole in the first place.
Dave Dinkins, faced with a severe financial setback, had every reason to attempt what Bloomberg is doing now, because of his community roots and inherited Democratic Party policy, but had the good common sense (and long-time City experience) to not strangle the Golden Goose so that, when times turned better, Giuliani was able to once again build on Koch's initiatives.
faced with his first fiscal crisis (and he's hardly the first New York mayor to face a fiscal crisis) his first response is tax-tax-tax-tax and cut-cut-cut-cut, big time.
The alternatives are to tax even more without cutting, or to cut even more without taxing. I don't really see the advantage to either.
As I understand the current situation from news articles, NYS believes that NYC should cut more out of the budget and drop its idea of instituting commuter taxes (no objections to a higher city property tax that only screws NYC residents, who they don't seem to care about). They offer no suggestions on what should be cut.
(As I understand the current situation from news articles, NYS believes that NYC should cut more out of the budget and drop its idea of instituting commuter taxes (no objections to a higher city property tax that only screws NYC residents, who they don't seem to care about). They offer no suggestions on what should be cut.)
Sure they do. You can't cut debt service, pensions, or Medicaid, which is state mandated. There goes half the budget. So you cut everything else.
My prediction -- a tax on commuters will be instituted, with half the revenues paid to the state to cover its costs. Same kickback will apply to any Albany-approved tax on city residents alone.
2/3 of the triumvirat opposes the commuter tax. DOA. The money WILL have to come from elsewhere. Fare hike's a given (though we won't see this proposed officially until after January) and the question becomes what else? Since the real estate tax rolls are already done, removal of rent control won't make a difference now, but watch this come into play as part of the annual budget brawl ...
There's one big problem though that Bloomberg faces. It's called the "New York State Financial Control Board" and the "Municipal Assistance Corporation" ... to whit, if Bloomberg DOESN'T come up with money, your new mayor will be Joe Bruno and his gang under a REcreated "Emergency Financial Control Board" ...
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/osdc/
A perspective on it all can be found here:
http://www.gothamgazette.com/finance/apr.02.shtml
This little game of chicken is higher stakes than folks might imagine. THIS is one of the reasons why I kept yelling "Joe Bruno" in a crowded theater ...
John McArdle is Bruno's assistant and his voice is credible. And no surprise here, Bruno has NO intent of letting NYC get away with their "liberal ways" ... seriously, the commuter tax is dead since Pataki is already on record against it. End of story. Bruno wants to see the sales tax go up in NYC and keep ALL of the shortfall's costs ON NYC. Don't expect any state aid either. This ain't "political," it's simple fact and a continuation of a long-standing Bruno policy.
Bruno and his buddies need NYC to keep subsidizing the rest of the state. Allowing the city to actually GET something would undermine our historic role as the state's cash cow.
Sadly, the logic up here with Bruno et al is that WE are subsidizing New York City ... they REALLY BELIEVE this! (!)
Last night, I had a dream in which I was on a n/b prewar D train. It was your typical 10-car train except there were two conductors - both in the middle of the train! (Sorry Kev, you weren't in it.) What the... Here's the clincher - one of the conductors was a young Pat Summerall. Yes, the ex-Giant-turned-sportscaster. At 125th St., I got off and as I was walking down the platform, that D train all of a sudden was only six cars long! Huh?!? One of the conductors said the other four cars would go into service as a local train.
I'm not even going try to figure this one out.
Dick Stockton was the motorman :)
--Mark
John Madden would make an interesting announcer for the "Please stand clear of the moving platform" message at Union Square, especially if he could figure out some way to use the telestrator to go along with the message ("The guy moves here instead of here when the platform is extended and BOOM -- down he goes onto the tracks...")
heh, with no flag thrown as part of the play :)
--Mark
LOL
Or better yet, "OK, here he's trying to get on the train - WHAP! - stiff arms that guy. Now there - DOINK! - he bounces off that stanchion. BANG! - hits the bulkhead as the train starts up."
MIND THE GAP! Ooops!
wayne
I have only two things to say to the lot of you. One, you either have too much time on your hands, or you have had a long day and need some R & R.
Come on, Fred. You had a dream about almost running over Hillary with a thundering Triplex train. Surely you've had other subway/Sea Beach dreams before.:)
I told this one some three years back and I'm not sure anyone remembers it. but this was the dream to end all dreams. I was sleeping when suddenly I was awakened and told to get dressed quickly as there was a surprise awaiting for me that would make my life complete. These two millionaires who I didn't even know took me to a place where there was this gigantic red dome, at least I think it was red. They gave me the keys and I opened the front door and it was pitch black inside.
Fortunately I found a light switch near the door and put it on. I got the shock of my life and couldn't believe my eye. Right in front of me, not more than twenty feet away was the CYCLONE. These two guys bought it and had it shipped out here for my enjoyment. Let me tell you that was the doozy or doozies until I heard two of yours. What do you guys think of that one? Crazy, eh?
That takes the cake. Tops 'em all.
What did Linda have to say?:)
Just like our friend Sparky, she thought I was nuts. But Linda is used to my antics by now and she takes it with a grain of salt. I have a real wonderful wife and let me tell you something----She really knows how to handle me.
Hey Fred,
Your not nuts, just a railfan ... Steve B. that a foamer along
with Wayne. Did you get near the railfan window on October 15.
At least with Mark on Monday, we had equal opportunities.
;-) Sparky
Yes I did. They were real good about it. We all played it as a team.
Now for the $64,000 question: when was the first time you told Linda you were a Sea Beach fanatic?
Not right away Steve. When I married my Linda in 1970 I was 16 years removed from New York and had no intention of visiting the place any time soon. I had pretty much disassociated myself from the big city after only about nine months in California. I was too busy coaching my baseball teams and working on my Master's Degree to worry about anything else. We also had bought a house which also took up some time.
In 1974 our Babe Ruth All Star team was eliminated in the State Playoffs and I had just earned my Master's Degree when it dawned on me that I had a month with little to do. My wife suggested I go to New York to see my relatives.
As soon as I got to New Y ork the old urge hit me immediately. I took the subway to Times Square, caught the Sea Beach, now the N train and it was like nothing had changed since I was a kid. My poor wife has had to put up with SBF since then. I wonder sometimes how she puts up with me.
I'll bet that when you got home after that trip, Linda wondered if this was the same man she'd married.:)
you have had a long day and need some R & R.
You're right ... I think I'll do some joyriding on Monday :)
--Mark
Hey El Marko, have a good one and think of me while you're having a blast. I will try and enjoy your experience vicariously. By the way, Steve sent me that picture we took near the Cyclone. You and I are smiling and looking cool, while the other two guys look like someone picked their pockets. I'm going to frame it and put it in my room. We had a good time that day.
while the other two guys look like someone picked their pockets.
Shhhhh! Why do you think I was smiling? :) :)
--Mark
Gees, I like it the both of you too. Well, the left coast rodent
is awake.
SBF, off to the Golden Arches for yaw, there serving McRAT for 99 cents.
;-) Sparky
Go dig in and have a field day. Next time we ride the trains together maybe we can see if the motorman will let us put a trap in the Montague hole and we can catch you a fresh one to eat.
What you want to do is arrange for a cab ride in the VacTrack consist. You can watch them getting sucked up into the bag. And as long as you don't mind the wait at E241 while the local restaurants empty the bag for the return trip, you might enjoy the ride. :)
No, not 241, we found the rodent disposal bin at Stillwell after
lunch at "Nathans".
;-) Sparky
Yeah, the north end of the IRT expresses (both Woodlawn and E241) are official "rodent drops" as well. I was hoping Fred would head north for a change. My understanding is that the rodent drop at Stillwell is closed for the winter. :)
Besides, they empty the bag in Monica up north if I remember correctly, though they COULD dump it on the Sea Bits express tracks when Fred's not looking. And just an FYI, I hear that the Nathan's at Coney isn't owned by Nathan's anymore. But that little hole in the wall Pizza joint across the street from the W platforms wasn't bad. Call me weird, but my idea of a "street dog" is Sabrett's, G-O, and "House'o'weenies" in that order. Never really cared much for the Coney mongrels all that much.
But let's not turn the discussion to food or we'll never get Fred to stop posting to this thread. :)
Foodtalk is Subtalk's alter ego.:)
Yeah, it's one of the major annoyance food groups, so I'm told. They are:
1. Politics
2. Sports
3. Food
4. Insults
Some are over quota. :)
>>>"Call me weird, but my idea of a "street dog" is Sabrett's, G-O, and "House'o'weenies" in that order. Never really cared much for the Coney mongrels all that much."<<<
I didn't indulge in a "bow wow" that day. Besides, when Mom was
still alive and worked for "Trunz" in the sixties at the main
packing plant, they were supplying the big 'N' with dogs and told
us about the content. 'twasnt beef.
But considering the date, mid October, did enjoy the "Coney" fries.
And the Slant 40s parade both directions for lunch, was the "cream on
the cake".
;-) Sparky
Heh ... the OTHER brands meowed too ... but at least Sabretts and G-O and House'o'weenies had beakies checking out the carts for proper temperatures (NOTHING lived in THAT water) and that the flame under the pan hadn't gone out. I learned YEARS ago that the Pakistanis and Hindis were VERY fastidious about their carts and never EVER got sick eating a street doggie. Nathan's? Heh. I stopped eating there after my 20th dose of full blown Ptomaine. I wrote something more picturesque but hit the delete key repeatedly until the thoughts I was about to express went off the record.
I wish I could get excited about Coney ... working for the TA killed what little enthusiasm I had for the place. A year later, working with the carneys and rigging the games with electronics pretty much killed what little mystique was left. And yes, the water balloons are JUST as "fixed" (more so) than the "put the ring on the bottle scam" ... At least in the rural carneys, the funway babes are pretty. And the skyhooks are free. :)
Yeah, Wayne would have loved it.:)
Yeah, I passed on the Coney Bow Wows for "Kenny Rogers" Chicken.
Blasphemous freebies we're extolling.
;-) Sparky
And if Hillary was anywhere in the dream, then it wasn't a dream but a nightmare. Can you imagine dreaming about her? It would take all your willpower not to throw up. Have you guys heard of the one I had of her in the 4th Avenue tunnel and I was driving a Triplex? Oh, yes, you have, dozens of times.
Heh. GLAD I wasn't in it, I would have had to write up Pat Summerall for out of title in cutting those cars without supervision. :)
Actually Pat was clicking the trigger caps in my dream. He had nothing to do with cutting the train.
I envy you in that I miss those great rides on the R1-9. I would love to take another ride on one.
Maybe I will dream about it tonight.
Once in a while, overpass at 239th rings with the straight gearing of the 'Arnine'...I'm the only one to stop and listen. Branmford has an 'Arnine'....it is not a work train but remains in passenger RTO service. I got to drive it...everything I have learned in my past year came into sychronisation. No speedo....you have gear mesh whirr and running off the rail to tell you you're going too fast. Branford has no trips...no BIE.
Ah yes, the good old days of subway running when the person in the broom closet had the ULTIMATE power over life and death. Power to be used, and not abused. Pity some morons ruined the experience of BEING in control of your train. :(
But the lack of all those silliness that fills cabs these days DOES allow you to watch the iron and pay attention while your ears are your instruments. Sure made MY year going back on the rails again, glad it served to make your own reality whole as well. Railfan window, feh ... it's the cab window that makes the experience, plus 90 pounds of air that you can call your own. However briefly. :)
Rules of the yahd: Observe the iron, check the aspects and maintain the 10 MPH limit. What remains amazing unca Kevin is that I never had
any interest in this stuff and look at me now!!! So we had an unfortuanate accident today.....overweight T/O slipped and fell into the pit. Dummies could have called me...spent an hour figuring how to get this guy out to safety. Supervisor broke my chops...'did you drive a train today?' He was former RCI....I'm the only 180th crewmember to know and understand how to operate and grateful for the Branford opportunity. Cars were 'stunk' and seperated opening up space for EMS to GO with the body board. Hey, I even know the lingo in English!
10 MPH is a happy number, be sure to stop and toot at facing points, make sure the switch is closed before diverging. Yawn. :)
Sorry to hear someone went into the hole out of title, hope the guy or gal is alright ... and for what it's worth, bust your RCI buddy's chops right back, they're not allowed to operate EITHER. Heh. Have faith, check the iron, so many unions cut off their noses to vote for the winning side that you just need to give it a year and "out of title" will no longer be an obstacle as the unions go away ... for the benefit of national security. Give it two toots, and proceed across the points at 4 ... or as they say in the hump yard, "No more than four." Didja get your picture of Unca Bill removing the plug?
Nothing like hearing those spur-cut bull and pinion gears moaning, groaning, and wailing away.
I may be too young to remember some things related to transit, but I do remember the R-1/9s very well. I'm thankful for that.
And you guys out there I had the wierdest dreams. That one by Steve takes the cake.
That's nothing. I had an R-10 dream a while back in which a train of my beloved Thunderbirds did its stuff down a mountainside at about 100 mph. Scared the pants off me and then some. Made the s/b run from 59th to 42nd seem mighty tame by comparison.
Then there was the R-1/9 dream at 59th St. when an express pulled in with no headlights, and the storm door had a drop sash window!
I've had some real doozies, let me tell you.
Well if you are having dreams about subway trains it only confirms that you are a subway fanatic. I'm sure there are a lot of others beside the two of us who have them. Keep dreaming away.
Well now I know why I had this urging on October 14th, when we
were on the (M) to have us all get off at Flushing Ave.
Could have brought you'll to Woodhull Hospital 5-B,
"The Nuts and Bolts" Department.
;-) Sparky
That reminds me of a cheer we used to at UConn football games:
Nuts and bolts, Nuts and bolts,
Boy, did we get screwed!!
Sorry, I didn't come up with that.
I gotta use that one on my other post refering to Brooklyn.
;-) Sparky
Speaking for myself? Guilty as charged.
Upon my last trip to NY is was a bit surprised at the disrepair of the Essex Street station. The center track, visible from Brooklyn bound platform, was filled with trash and cinder blocks. The area across the Brooklyn bound track was full of junk too.
Is the trash filled trackway or area across the Brooklyn bound track ever used for anything?
Is the trash filled trackway or area across the Brooklyn bound track ever used for anything?
Believe it or not, as bad as Essex is now, it was more of an eyesore before 1989 when they put that cement block wall up on the Broad Street bound platform. Before that wall they had the standard "jail" type bars where the current wall is now along the platform. Behind that wall is space that almost doubles the width of the platform (where abandonned stairways are) and they used to store all kind of junk back there in plain view. (The original tiles are back there, but they were nothing special, just plain white). The station was a mess in all directions. It looked much better when they put that wall up. It may even have been their first attempt to recreate mosaics with those pretty primitive Essex mosaics.
Anyway, When they are finished with the work at Canal Street, and they abandon the Queens Bound platform, the only track on the island platform in regular use will be the center track at Essex. The current in use one will only be used for nonrevenue moves or GO's. As for the condition of Essex, the station is currently under renovation, like most of the Nassau line is/was.
I'm hoping they will eventually put up a track wall along the current Queens Bound platform to finally cover up that area across the track that used to be trolly terminal. There is no reason for it to be in plain view. It has become a real eyesore. It couldn't cost that much to put a trackwall up there. It would really improve the appearance of the station. They could even put tiles up similar to the retro tiles they put up at Fulton and Broad to match sme of the other stations on the line.
Does anyone know what the plans for the Essex renovation is?
Why in the world do you, as a supposed railfan, want NYCT to block off the view of the trolley station? Hasn't enough damage been done to old transit artifacts since the TA took over? The trolley station is a significant piece of city transit history that should be preserved and displayed, not swept under the rug!
Maybe not sweep it under the rug but at least sweep it out.
Why in the world do you, as a supposed railfan, want NYCT to block off the view of the trolley station? Hasn't enough damage been done to old transit artifacts since the TA took over? The trolley station is a significant piece of city transit history that should be preserved and displayed, not swept under the rug!
Most riders are not railfans, and it is an eyesore. If they really did preserve it or display it fine, but in the condition that it's in, and the way it makes the whole station looked trashed, it would really improve the look of the station if they closed it off. As a railfan, yes I would be sorry to see it go, but the subway is not run for railfans.
It's like saying a station like 18th Street should have stayed open, because by closing it a piece of history will be hidden. It has very unique 18 plaques. From a railfan perspective, I would love to see that station open, but realistically it would be foolish from an operational standpoint to have kept it open. The same goes for the exposed, deteriorated, and dumped in trolly terminal. Besides, the hidden areas make for interesting tours.
Don't you think it hurts me that the following is just rotting in the tunnel? As a passenger or from an operational standpoint, I can see why it was abandoned, but as a railfan, I enjoyed going on the tour - the same goes for the trolly terminal:
How about campaigning for the MTA to light up the 18th street station and its tile mosaic as a way to spotlight the past
How about campaigning for the MTA to light up the 18th street station and its tile mosaic as a way to spotlight the past
Now that would not be a bad idea, it could be an exhibit in motion maintained by the Transit Museum. And include 91st Street in that also. OF course they would have to start by removing the grafitti.
There was some talk a few months ago about opening up 18th Street as a bar, preserving the tiles, and putting up a plexiglass wall all along the tracks (the station is not that long - one of the reasons it has closed). I don't know whatever happened to that plan - anyone know?
The trolly station is all but gone. All that remains is an open eyesore. I'd support the erection of a wall, but it probably won't be done.
The location currently is an eyesore, I'll concur.
But please spell it correctly it's TROLLEY not trolly
or we'll take Thomas away from yaw.
;-) Sparky
Damn, I did the same thing. I knew it didn't look right. You know when you get a total mental block and it's a loss cause at that point to spell it right. Traaahhleeeee, not trohhhhleee.
>>The location currently is an eyesore, I'll concur.
But please spell it correctly it's TROLLEY not trolly<<
Thank you Sparky,
Add to this the plural for bus is buses, not busses !
Need more proff ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>"Add to this the plural for bus is buses, not busses!"<<<
I may be guilty of misusing that one myself on occasion.
I do stop and think about it.
;-) Sparky
>>"Add to this the plural for bus is buses, not busses!"<<<
I may be guilty of misusing that one myself on occasion.
I do stop and think about it.<<
bus - motor coach
buss - a kiss
I would prefer a kiss more than a bus anyday !!
Bill "Newkirk"
In other words you would probably prefer busses instead of buses?
LOL :-) Sparky
>>In other words you would probably prefer busses instead of buses<<
RIGHT !
Bill "Newkirk"
I did the same thing with busses. You are right, it has to be buses.
Shame on me...
Chuck Greene
buses or busses are correct spelling. check dictionary.
It's been nearly three weeks since my office moved to Court Street. After considerable experimentation with connecting between the numerous routes serving the area and my hometown Flushing line, I've made a very surprising conclusion.
I'd assumed I would make the best time via the 4 and 5 changing at Grand Central, as the Borough Hall complex is right around the corner from my building. So far, that seems to be the case in the morning. But going home, I've actually made the same- or even better- time by taking the 2 or 3 to Times Square and getting the 7 there. I leave work at 4:00.
It defies all logic. It's six stops from Boro Hall to GC via the 4 and 5. It's EIGHT stops from Boro Hall to TS via the 2 and 3. There are several sharp curves between Clark and Chambers that are heavily timed, and long dwell times at Penn for both exiting and boarding. There's some moderate crowding at Wall and Chambers, but a lot of those passengers exit at Penn.
Of course, the advantages to the 2 and 3 is that I can get a seat inbound at Boro Hall, which is NOT always the case on the inbound 4 and 5. (I don't even bother sitting even if there happen to be any seats on an R-62 because it just gets too cramped, with the partition invariably intruding uncomfortably on my rear anatomy!) Changing for the 7 at Times Square assures me of a seat, with the added benefit of knowing the express is always on the same track. The uptown 4 and 5 get horribly crowded even at 4:00, with very long dwell times and door trouble from Fulton all the way to GC- which also defeats the benefits of running express.
The other primary way I've been going is to change at 5th Avenue for the F. It's a longer walk between my office and Jay Street, but the F is pleasantly roomy in the morning below 34th and getting on at Jay in the afternoon. R46s are extremely fast below 2nd Avenue and through the Rutgers tube. As a bonus, I got a 32 this morning!! The renovation of the rather lengthy passageway under Bryant Park is complete, so it's back to its full width- not counting the homeless, peddlers and musicians. The westernmost stairway from the 7 platform is still closed, which makes for a small bottleneck. But it's still more pleasant getting on a Flushing-bound train at 5th than GC, which can be a real pressure cooker at 4:30.
When I have an unlimited, I'll occasionally change for the G at my old work stop, avoiding Manhattan altogether. The new entrance has three Metrocard turnstiles which usually have very long lines- WHY can't people keep track of how much is on their cards?! Despite Court Square being the first stop, the G starts out very crowded with Brooklyn Tech kids (who don't necessarily sit quietly studying), and only gets more crowded along the way until it empties out at Fulton. It's a rather long walk from Hoyt/Scherm to the office, and kind of desolate at 7:30 in the morning. I took the G home only once, and had a long delay at 21st waiting for a pocket at the terminal. This caused to me to just miss the Flushing-bound express.
I haven't even considered using the N between Queensboro and Court Street. WAY too many stops and slowdowns.
Soooo- in the morning, the 4 and 5 are OK if I don't mind climbing the steep transfer passage at GC and standing usually through Brooklyn Bridge. The downtown express from GC to BB is very good before 7:30, although for some reason there's been an annoying slowdown through the first half of Joralemon. There are still some Redbirds on the 4 and 5 passing the other way, even though I've never gotten one myself.
This is my thirteenth day here, and I've never gone the same way to or from work two days in a row.
P.S: I could've SWORN I passed Dennis Riga one morning on the GC transfer ramp.
"It defies all logic."
It's not totally suprising. The 4/5 are at max tph capacity, given NYCT work rules and NYC residents' proclivities. Any slight screw-up and trains get delayed. Also, 2/3 to 7 is a quicker transfer than 4/5 to 7.
It is amazing the G isn't your fastest route, but you do explain why.
Keep up the experimentation! Another option is to take the 7 local to 74th and catch the F downstairs. I don't know how that compares to taking an express and transferring at 5th.
Also, if you're on the 7 at QbP when an N/W happens to pull in across the platform, try taking it to Times Square. I'm not sure which is faster, but I have a feeling it's the N/W. The transfer to the 2/3 isn't bad if you don't follow the signs -- from the mezzanine, start by following signs to the 7 but use the narrow passageway on the right when you get to the ramp and escalator. Or if you get a W (express), try staying on it to Canal and taking an M from there, which also gives you the chance to check up on the realignment work at Canal.
Also, if you're on the 7 at QbP when an N/W happens to pull in across the platform, try taking it to Times Square. I'm not sure which is faster, but I have a feeling it's the N/W.
Only if by "N/W" you mean "No Way!" The BMT will get you just inside Manhattan faster than the IRT (which is useful for transfer to the Lex), but once you pass Lexington and 60th, it's usually a crawl to 57th, and sometimes beyond. For Times Sq., it's the (7) all the way.
:-) Andrew
Really? The 7 creeps and crawls from QbP into Manhattan. Aside from the curves along 60th and 59th, the N/W is pretty fast. But I haven't timed it, and you may be right.
"Aside from the curves along 60th and 59th, the N/W is pretty fast."
The N and W have a miserable tendency to crawl from 57th to 42nd because of the switching delays due to the W merging with the Q. Each train is always waiting for a train ahead of it to do something.
I don't experience that very often, but I probably do most of my riding there middays (when there's less of a crunch) and weekends (when the W stays on the local track).
From Queensboro, the 7 is scheduled at 12 minutes to Times Sq; the N/W at 10 minutes to 57/7 and 15 minutes to 34/B'way (Times Sq is not a scheduled time point on the N/W).
Scheduled is the keyword here. Reality is another thing. The (7) has its typical slowdown (no doubt reflected on the timetable) on the sharp curves between QBP and Hunterspoint, but doesn't have much by way of unexpected (but nearly inevitable) delays. The (N)(W) tend to slow down to a crawl at any ol' time, particularly between Lex and 57th (though they do often pick up a nice clip under the East River.)
This is just my experience, mind you.
:-) Andrew
OTOH, the 7 sometimes gets delayed approaching its terminal. So do the N and W, but their terminals are nowhere near Times Square.
And on the N/W, if it looks like something's wrong at 57th, the Q might be able to help out (or, if on an unlimited, even the F at 57/6); once the 7 leaves QbP, there aren't really many other options.
And if he goes for the 4/5, it's probably quicker to take the N/W to Lex and go downstairs than to scale the ramp at Grand Central.
"And if he goes for the 4/5, it's probably quicker to take the N/W to Lex and go downstairs than to scale the ramp at Grand Central."
But the 7 bends in a southerly direction after departing QP to align itself with 42nd Street, and if I'm going downtown, it wouldn't be in my best interest to transfer again to be in alignment with 60th Street. If I'm going to the Upper East Side or Bronx, I'll change at QP to go one stop to Lex/60th as a short cut to the 4/5/6. But not if I'm going downtown.
Turns out the transfer ramp at GC isn't all that bad, despite the fact that I have to go uphill in the morning. It's much quicker and easier than going up the escalator to the mezzanine and then back down to the 4/5/6 platform along with all the Metro-North commuters.
Here's a case where it's a shame the W skips DeKalb. If it stopped there, I'd think the fastest way would be 7 to Queensboro, then W express via the bridge to DeKalb. He'd also stay off the cramped IRT.
He could take either the N or the W to 57th or 42nd and get the Q there.
Take it to 42 St. that way, you'll get whatever Q shows up next.
Unless it's obvious which Q is leaving first at 57th -- say, by the starting lights, which means the N/W may not get to 42nd in time. (But in general, I agree.)
I've just programmed myself to say that to the cross-platform transferees at 57.
In general, the _________ (fill in your own insult) people from Queens get off the N/R/W at 57 and get on the (Q) across the platform. If there is no circle in view, they will wait for one to arrive, even if there is a diamond sitting on the other track. And, before someone says, "Well, maybe they all need a circle in Brooklyn", they exhibit the same behavior on Saturdays, when both trains are circles.
I've got a very easy way to avoid agonizing over which platform to go to when coming from Queens to change to the Q: I CHANGE AT TIMES SQUARE. No second-guessing over which one's leaving first, no muss, no fuss. Just cross the platform and wait for whichever Q you need. The extra stop at 49th is worth the peace of mind.
"I CHANGE AT TIMES SQUARE."
Very sensible. By far the best strategy. Every now and then of course (just often enough to drive one crazy) the N/R/W leaves 57th before the Q, but by the time it gets to 42nd the Q has passed it by.
What drives me even more crazy is arriving at 57th and 7th on foot, with the intent of heading downtown to 14th, and seeing the "Next Train" indicator point to the uptown platform. I can either go down to the Q on the uptown platform, and miss the N/R/W that then rolls in within 30 seconds, or I can go to the downtown platform and watch the Q roll out while I cool my heels waiting for an N/R/W. I do the latter because the odds are better that way. Of course, there's always sitting in the Q and making a mad dash if I see an N/R/W on the other platform, but my knees don't appreciate when I do that.
One pointer is that diamond Q's originate/terminate on the Queens bound (63rd St. line) express track, while the circle Q's originate/terminate on the Brooklyn/downtown express track.
They could also relay the trains NORTH of 57th St (assuming the switch replacement is done). This would eliminate the annoying wait on incoming Q trains as they wait for a track to clear at 57th St.
"They could also relay the trains NORTH of 57th St (assuming the switch replacement is done). This would eliminate the annoying wait on incoming Q trains as they wait for a track to clear at 57th St."
Under current NYCT policy, this would actually reduce tph capacity, since now each train would have to be cleared of people before it departs from the northbound platform into the relay.
In my case, i get off ave U or Kings Highway. No matter which train leaves first the Q diamond will get me home faster.
DeKalb won't do me much good, because that's about ten blocks east of the office. That's not a bad walk if I'm not in a hurry, but my office is on the 17th floor, and I have to clock in on my computer (something I didn't have to do at my former location- as if the longer commute isn't bad ENOUGH!! Guess we can thank Hizzoner for taking over the Department of Ed-) by 8:00. The elevator service for this 18-story building is inadequate to say the least.
I had requested the 8-to-4 shift- the earliest available- because I have to get my son out of his after-school program no later than 5:30. If I don't, I have to wait till 6:00, dinner's late and wife's annoyed. Hence, an hour and a half window gives me enough time.
Since we're within three blocks of virtually every other train that serves downtown Brooklyn, the Q is thereby not a viable option. Any time saved by using the bridge bypass would be negated by the walk, or crossing over to the inbound platform and having to ride a packed M, N or R two stops. And exiting at Court Street means climbing two VERY long stairways and then a lengthy passageway. When are they EVER gonna fix that escalator?!
When are they EVER gonna fix that escalator?!
Well, as this is New York we're talking about, how does early 2006 sound?
[And exiting at Court Street means climbing two VERY long stairways and then a lengthy passageway. When are they EVER gonna fix that escalator?!]
Howard, for your reference, Court Street station has an elevator.
>>> When are they EVER gonna fix that escalator?! <<<
Sorry, all available resources have already been committed to building the 2nd Avenue subway. :-)
Tom
"Another option is to take the 7 local to 74th and catch the F downstairs. I don't know how that compares to taking an express and transferring at 5th."
I try to avoid changing at 74th, especially in the AM rush. There's horrible congestion no matter which escalator you use (and chances are at least one will be out of order). While the inbound F is much less crowded mornings since it was switched to 63rd, I'd still have to deal with that crazy inbound platform at Roosevelt, which is not for the faint-hearted- especially when an E and R stop at the same time.
Besides, there are two expresses for each local leaving Flushing in the morning, and I MUCH prefer the express. The time savings on the express is much bigger than it used to be, thanks to horrible boarding congestion at many of the local stops. This is an unfortunate by-product of too darn many people living in Queens thanks to greedy landlords, increased immigration- ah, maybe I just better quit while I'm ahead.
"Also, if you're on the 7 at QbP when an N/W happens to pull in across the platform, try taking it to Times Square. I'm not sure which is faster, but I have a feeling it's the N/W. The transfer to the 2/3 isn't bad if you don't follow the signs -- from the mezzanine, start by following signs to the 7 but use the narrow passageway on the right when you get to the ramp and escalator."
Yeah, but if I'm already ON the 7 with the intent to change to the 2/3 at Times Square, why would I make an additional transfer- especially when I'm already comfortably seated and reading the paper? (Getting on at the first stop HAS its advantages!) Besides, it's far easier to change from the 7 at TS- where it's just two flights up- than from the BMT platform, which requires going up, through passageways, and then down again no matter WHICH stairs you use.
It's a longer walk between my office and Jay Street, but the F is pleasantly roomy in the morning below 34th and getting on at Jay in the afternoon. R46s are extremely fast below 2nd Avenue and through the Rutgers tube
That section of the F is pretty fast. For two years, when I was going to college in Downtown Brooklyn, before switching to Baruch in Manhattan, I had to get to Downtown Brooklyn from the M line in Queens. Originally I would take the M direct to Lawrence Street. It was absolute torture going through the tunnel. After about two weeks of that I tried getting off at Essex-Delancey, and taking the F to Jay Street. I thought I was in heaven. It was so much faster, the Jay Street station is so much more pleasant to use. So I actually gave up my one seat ride on the M to take the quicker M/F combination, and did that for the rest of the two years that I went to school there. It pays to experiment. (Only the very direct Myrtle El could have been better - yes I always thought it was dumb to have to take the subway from Queens to Manhattan to come back to Brooklyn. I tried the free B54 bus at Myrtle Broadway from the M train to Downtown Brooklyn also, but that was another torture test).
Maybe I don't understand something, or don't know the bridge repair routes. Can't you switch to the R at Roosevelt?
Bridge repair routes don't figure into this at all. The Q and W are the only two lines serving downtown Brooklyn that DON't stop near my office. And the last thing I need is to have to ride the excruitiangly local R from Jackson Heights all the way through Manhattan to downtown Brooklyn.
There is a report on one of the MTA sites that says the times on the R are a misperception (although misperceptions usually happen in reports, not in ridership). Is this something worth checking out, since you are in a position to do so? Try the R with your stopwatch just once. I'll mail you a MetroCard-priced slice of pizza if it turns out twice as long.
"Despite Court Square being the first stop, the G starts out very crowded with Brooklyn Tech kids (who don't necessarily sit quietly studying), and only gets more crowded along the way until it empties out at Fulton. It's a rather long walk from Hoyt/Scherm to the office, and kind of desolate at 7:30 in the morning."
Instead of walking from Hoyt/Scherm, why not transfer for the "A" or "C" and take it to Jay St. They run pretty often, well the "A" does anyway.
"Instead of walking from Hoyt/Scherm, why not transfer for the "A" or "C" and take it to Jay St. They run pretty often, well the "A" does anyway."
Because the A/C swings northward to Jay Street, and the office is pretty much due WEST of where it turns. In fact, I'm just a block north of the freight entrance for the renovating Transit Museum. (Guess I know where I'll be spending my lunch hours next year!) If I'm taking the A,C or F from Manhattan, it's worth my while to get off at Jay Street. But if I'm on the G, it's easier to stay south of Fulton Street. Besides, the Manhattan-bound A's and C's I've seen stopping across the platform at Hoyt/Scherm look extremely crowded. It's only one stop to Jay, but the doors open on the other side.
While the walk from Hoyt/Scherm may be rather desolate in the morning, some people who work here avoid making that walk after dark. At least it's always light when I get out at 4:00.
As a side note, I noticed that there's still the vintage-1933 IND style sign at Clint/Wash indicating Pratt, Saint Joseph's College and Bishop Loughlin HS. Amazing that's still there- I wonder if the fact that our previous mayor went to Loughlin would have anything to do with that? In any event, there aren't too many original black-on-white IND signs left.
Howard, I'll email you later...
Double D,
After reading all of Howie's, moaning, groaning, cretching and outright bitching. He should be thankful, he is employed and does have a place to go daily. [You know why I make this statement.]
Better yet, let him get traveling directions from "Headlights"
Enough already or write to "Dear Vinnie Voltage"...What he the only
person that travels.
;-) Sparky
OK, Sparky, you made your point. I certainly didn't intend to make it sound like I was moaning, groaning, cr[kv]etching or outright bitching, and apologize if I come off that way. It's just too much comparing, constrasting and overanalysis that we KNOW is NOT AT ALL characteristic of us subfans.
Besides, I get a kick out of all the different responses I get from our various and sundry Subtalkers.
And yes, I AM glad to have a place of employment that I can go to daily (despite Bloomie's continued attempts otherwise!). The initial shock of the longer commute is pretty much wearing off. I was obviously spoiled for 18 years to have had such a short, simple one.
I found the discussion of all the possible options very interesting. Anyone who just thinks you're bitching and moaning doesn't have to follow the discussion.
Yes, I found the options of traveling alternates interesting, YES,
but your style of verbiage is so much kretching. Besides, your
working so dilegently, nice being a PAID CIVIL SERVANT, isn't it?
Getting a check weekly or bi-weekly. Such difficult work.
;-) Sparky
Howard,
Welcome back aboard the "Train of Life" AKA "It's a Beach".
Also there are more schools then "Tech" on the (G). Look at
the rowdy edifices at my home station. Automotive & 126.
When I was in High School, early fifties, the oppposite sex
from a Catholic Commercial High School at Flushing Ave. gave
us all lessons in obsenity. The "Techies" were choir boys.
Oh, that's right, "Tech" is now co-ed, wasn't then, neither
was mine Alexander Hamilton VHS.
;-) Sparky
I log onto Subtalk for all the free load analysis I can shake a switch at. Fein's given us a month's worth of free consulting services. If the taxpayers had to ante up for it, you'd hear about it.
I hear ya, Sparky....an concur.
I think Dr. Howard, Dr. Fein and Dr. Howard gets the point.
Sorry about the 'Stooges' reference. ;)
Here's something you should consider,if the 7 local comes first,TAKE IT!! what's the use of taking the express if all you really save is 2 or 3mins tops.It's nothing more than a complete waste of time.If the local and express show up 5mins apart then the express passes the local at around 74St or 82St.Of course NO ONE who takes that train ever REALIZES that and they think they save 10mins or somewhere around there.It's pathetic really. The usual "is this a local or express?" if you say local they get off and wait for the express like the idiot's that they are.When the hell are people gonna learn that IT DOESN'T MATTER wether you take a local or express!It's only 4mins tops that anyone ever saves!But NOOOOOOOO!!! RUSH!RUSH!RUSH! EVERYONE ALWAYS HAS TO BE IN A RUSH FOR NO DAMN REASON AT ALL!!! >.< -is really mad at train rider's stupidity-
And another thing that makes me mad is their stupid question's too. "Does this train stop at 42nd St?" Like there isnt 1 damn train in the whole system that DOESN'T stop at 42 St. And another question I really hate is..."How many stops to 168 St?" Like anyone is gonna sit there and count for them how many stop's it is to 168 St from Jay St in Brooklyn,gimme a break!
Oh yeah,1 last thing that drives me bonker's,people running to the train as if it's the last one in the whole damn day and there won't be another till the next day and when they hold the doors like idiots.
Well ok that's 2 things but still,IT'S RIDICULOUS ALREADY!!! From now on,everyone I see running for the train,I'm gonna laugh at em and say "Go ahead run!Run after the train,it's the last one,there won't be another till tommorow!" or somewhere along those lines.Cause really,you look at it and it's laughable.
And another thing that makes me mad is their stupid question's too. "Does this train stop at 42nd St?" Like there isnt 1 damn train in the whole system that DOESN'T stop at 42 St.
Let's see: L, M, J, Z, G, S's.
Just teasing, I know what you meant.
I am looking for the origin of several interlocking names on the former PRR NEC. These would include GRUNDY in Bristol PA, FAIR in Trenton, LANE in Elizabeth, LINCOLN in Metutchen, HUNTER in Newark and DOCK in Newark.
Also, if anyone has the list of SS numbers for former New Haven Line towers and then their post Penn Central names that would also be great.
Lincoln in Metuchen comes from that the tracks in that location run parallel to Route 27 also known as part of the old "Lincoln Highway System".
hunter was a telphone exchage in newark and section of the city. dock is build at the newark draw brige(on the dock)
I am sure Fishbowl can help, but here are the names I know from Trenton to NY Penn:
Fair- N of NY end of Trenton Station (tower)
Ham- Near Hamilton
Nassau- Near Princeton Junction (Towwer)
Midway- At Monmouth Secondary near an abandoned station
Adams- near Amtrak M.O.W. facillity
COunty- Near Jersey Ave Station (Tower_
Lincoln- Near Metuchen (Tower)
Menlo and Iseline- Near Metropark for the switches.(No tower)
Union- At the NJCL Merge (tower)
Elmora (no tower)
Bud- at the beer plant for the two level section with the freight track.
??- near Newark Airport at what appears to be an old low level station on a spur to the right of the NY bound track (Oak?)
Hunter- had a tower but is demolished. At the Raritan merge
South Street ( Name ??)- near South Street abandoned station.
Dock- NY end of Newak Penn (tower)
Hudson- near MMC (Tower)
Portal- Portal drawbridge (Tower)
Fishbowl- can you complete/correct the list? I know you work Newark Division of NJT
I think there are some more between Portal and NY Penn
wow there are 2 NASSAU towers? LIRR has one at mineola. it switches trains to the Oyster bay Branch and its right at the east end of mineola station. Also i have been to Dock tower because i know alot of Amtrak personnel. Dock Controls, CLIFF, LANE, and a few other interlockings too.
In theory HAM (formerly the extended limits of FAIR) has a tower, namely the old MILLHAM tower one mile north. MILLHAM interlocking was removed after the Trenton area freight yards dried up.
right before LINCOLN interlocking is EDISON interlocking. It is on # 1 and 2 tracks only and allows trains access to the big automotive plant there.
I need to verify what exactly ADAMS interlocking is next time I ride the NEC in daylight.
I think that ISLIN might not be a seperate entity any more, but I'll inquire about it.
ELMORA's foundation and outbuilding (w/ PRR keystone) still exists.
BUD is the Newark airport station interlocking, LANE is the one at the freight flyover.
there is no South Street as DOCK's control runs right up to HUNTER's home signal.
PORTAL never had a real tower and what it did have is long gone.
Right before PORTAL is KEARNEY for the new Kearney Connection and after portal is ALLIED, for the new Secaucas Connection (Allied Jct.). The crossover before the turn into the Hudson Tubes is BERGEN and the mouth of Penn Station is A.
Thanks. Iselin and Menlo are the switches at either end to allow trains on the "express" or "Inside" tracks to stop at Metro Park and then revert to the former track.They are controlled by Union or Lincoln.
I'd like to try to clear some things up. All information current as of May 2001, when I left the pointless arrow to wear a flying meatball. Corrections/updates welcome!
HAM: In the mid '80s, some consultants sold Amtrak on the idea that they should straight-rail MILLHAM interlocking (whose importance diminished with the abandonment of the Bel-Del Branch and the general decrease in freight activity) and build a brand-new interlocking west thereof, to be controlled from FAIR and thus named FAIRHAM. Initially, FAIRHAM was operated locally by a Block Operator in an instrument house, setting up routes as per instructions telephoned by the Train Director at FAIR. Later, a remote control panel was installed at FAIR, and around this time, FAIRHAM became HAM. By the time FAIR closed and went over to CETC in 1996, it had remote control over MORRIS, HAM, MIDWAY and COUNTY interlockings.
Adams is a hand switch on No. 1 trk at MP35 (almost under the US Route 1 bridge) providing access to the Adams MoW base.
Before LINCOLN went over to CETC a few years ago, it controlled EDISON, MENLO and ISELIN interlockings.
EDISON interlocking was actually part of the old US&S machine at LINCOLN. It consisted of switches and signals on the '0',1 and 2 tracks. Hand switches on the '0' trk provide access to the Metuchen receiving yard. A hand switch on the '0' track, as well as a power switch at LINCOLN, provide access to Metuchen yard proper, as well as the Ford plant. If EDISON ever existed as a stand-alone interlocking with it's own tower, it did so prior to the massive WWII rebuilding of the plant that included STELTON and PARK interlockings, as well as the rail network within Camp Kilmer. MENLO and ISELIN were built solely to provide all-track access to the platforms at Metropark station, which was originally supposed to consist of island platforms, but was eventually built "on the cheap." MENLO and ISELIN built as remote-controlled interlockings.
HAYNES interlocking went into service c.2000. It's just East of LANE, at the Haynes Avenue overpass, and was built in conjunction with the new Airport station.
I think BUD is part of whatever Conrail devolved into (joint assets?). It's on the North/East end of what used to be Waverly Yard-
not part of the Amtrak NEC anyway.
CLIFF interlocking is just East of HUNTER, at the old South Street station platforms (also the site of a small elevated? yard). Built in the mid-'90s as an interlocking remotely controlled by DOCK, it only encompasses 1,2 and 3 tracks. DOCK controls LANE, HAYNES, HUNTER and CLIFF interlockings.
PORTAL was locally controlled from more of a shack than a tower until it was remoted to 'A' tower in the late '80s. The building was severely damaged in the Thanksgiving wreck at Portal Bridge and was subsequently demolished.
KEARNEY is on the M&E - the NEC end of the Kearney connection is SWIFT interlocking, named after the former Swift siding at that site. Of course, it too is a new interlocking and never had it's own tower.
KEARNEY is not to be confused with KARNY, controlled from HACK and both also part or thia CR-NS-CSX-Shared Assets monster.
On the drawing board (as well as the hardwire control panel at PSCC) are ERIE and LACK interlockings, also associated with Allied Junction. Their name origins should be obvious.
I think that BUD is a new interlocking on the NEC at the north end of the EWK airport station where WA-5 used to be. The former Waverly Yard is now a small CSAO yard with the designation ISLAND. I'll try to scope out the Relay hut placard next time I pass.
I'm pretty sure FAIR is short for Fairlawn, NJ. HAM is for Hamilton.
Midway is about midway (MP 41.3) between New York and Philadelphia.
Shore (MP 81.2) is the Main Line diverges to Atlantic City. If I think of more, I'll let you know.
Michael
New Haven Line (Woodlawn to Stamford):
Vern - Mount Vernon
Shell - New Rochelle
Pike - Between Harrison and Rye
Green - Between Greenwich and Riverside)
Stam - Stamford
Harlem Division (North of Grand Central to Woodlawn)
Knick (NYC NK) - 103rd Street
Bridge - Harlem River Bridge
Mott Haven (NYC MO) - Mott Haven Yard
Woodlawn (NYC WD) - Woodlawn
GRUNDY - Joe GRUNDY, local industrialist, GRUNDY factory still stands across from Bristol station.
FAIR - old Trenton (N.J. State) FAIRgrounds were adjacent. To this day, there are still tracks nearby known as FAIRground tracks.
LANE - that section of Newark bordering on Elizabeth was once known as the Downneck section and a major thoroughfare in the old days near the tower site was Neck LANE.
LINCOLN - Everybody (myself too at one time) thinks that it was named after the LINCOLN Highway (Route 27) - not so. The late Francis Meaney, PRR/PC/AMTK rules examiner for the area, suggested LINCOLN when the towers were being named. He got LINCOLN from the then LINCOLN (Ford) plant.
HUNTER - from HUNTER Street and HUNTER section of Newark - there's still a HUNTER Street yard there.
DOCK - probably due to the marine influence and structural configuration of the river crossing (i.e. – a dock), but there may have been an actual DOCK there once. Also, there used to be a tower there many many years ago called CK.
I'll throw in COUNTY too: most people seem to think COUNTY comes from New Brunswick, COUNTY Seat of Middlesex COUNTY. Actually, it was named after Alexander T. COUNTY, a PRR VP and Treasurer who lived in New Brunswick.
NJ State Assemblyman Paul Sarlo, has stated that the the 250,000 NJ commuters spend an average of $2,400 per year in New York City. I assume that other commuters have the same demographics and spend an equal amount.
How much does that help NYC? Assuming all the money spent is subject to NYC Sales Tax, that comes to an average of $102 per year. N.B. the combined City/State sales tax rate is 8.25%. However, NYC gets 4.25%. Assuming that the commuter works a full year that comes to approximately 41 cents per day.
"Assuming all the money spent is subject to NYC Sales Tax, that comes to an average of $102 per year."
Incidentally, of that .25% or $6 goes straight to the MTA.
Just assume these figures are bogus.
Nonetheless, it is true that NYC makes a profit on commuters. Just consider their share of the workforce of Manhattan businesses, and thus their share of the business taxes those businesses pay. And realize that NYC doesn't pay for commuters' welfare, Medicaid, public schools, water and sewer (metered), solid waste collection (businesses use private), etc.
That's why out in the burbs, selfish, freeloading municipalities (all of them) zone out people and zone in businesses. They want poor NYC residents to commute to lower paying jobs in their town, then leave at the end of the day (can you say Soweto?)
On Chicago-l.org are photo of CTA 2200 Series Cars that have MTA logos on the. I never saw the new Spiderman movie so I did not now that they used CTA cars for MTA cars. Hear are the links to them, I don't know how to get the pitcher up on Subtalk.
To see them facter copy and pasted them into the address line of your explorer.
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/Spiderman2/images/Spiderman2-2200s01.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/Spiderman2/images/Spiderman2-2200s02.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/Spiderman2/images/Spiderman2-2200s03.jpg
Robert
I did not read it right, that are for the seconed Spiderman Movie.
Robert
Great pictures, Robert!
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
Interesting ... usually it's Toronto subway cars that are the NYCTA posers. Guess Chitown was cheaper.
I have a picture here somewhere of a set of M cars with MTA logos covering up the TTC's own. They were being inspected by a bunch of movie people at a yard and the looked quite anxious when a friend and I poked camera lenses through the fence and took a couple pictures, but nothing was done beyond givng us a few anxious glances.
Toronto's fine for subway shots but there's no elevated here, and that's probably why they went to Chicago - for elevated scenes. Of course, I have an idea that makes absolutely no sense at all: When you want to show the New York subway film the New York subway instead of getting another one to play 'pretend' for the cameras...
-Robert King
Why would they want elevated scenes on the R? Or, conversely, if they want elevated scenes, why would they sign the train as an R?
I'm suggesting it as a possibility. How often do they get the line designation to correctly match one that's elevated or underground as the case may be, anyways?
-Robert King
And they even put "Forest Hills" on the front!
How many normal NYers could tell you that the R is 100% underground? Unless they ride a majority of the route, I bet not many. I doubt anyone on the set had any clue either.
The trains are purposefully labeled fictiously because that's how the MTA wants it - they don't want their trains potentially shown in a negative light, so if the route or model or scenario is fake (see "Money Train") they can claim that the depiction is totally fictional, etc etc etc
By the way, I suppose it's good to see NYC subway cars represented by Budd again :)
--Mark
Then explane MIB 2. They used R32 @ Church Ave Yard in the F line. That are was shown getting eating up by a giant worm. So I guess this is not negative light. It all have to do with MONEY, it's cheeper to pay the fees of just using the name and using some other system, then just to pay the hole thing for uses on the system.
Robert
I thought the trailer of MIB II (never saw it) had a R-32 lookalike but the windows were like an R-30 ... was I mistaken? Also, was there a station scene of any kind? If it just took place in a tunnel, there's no recognizable landmark (unless you recognize grafitti or a signal label :)
--Mark
As someone who knows the NYC subway, it never ceases to amuse me at how rarely it shows up in films and advertisements. Of course, now that LA has a subway, I'm seeing more and more M's from there. Highly amusing, but of course for the rest of the country, dogs don't know it's not bacon. :)
They wanted to, but saw what happened to Salaam and changed their mind 8->
Are Canadians amused or annoyed that their cities are constantly made up to look like the US? I could understand if pictures depicting crime sprees were not set in Canada, but there are any number of comedies taking place in New York or Seattle that could just as easily confess that they are really in Toronto or Vancouver. Do Canadians feel American producers think Americans are so dumb that they would be distracted by a north of the border setting?
They KNOW Americans are that stupid, and they enjoy the folding money. One of the funniest Canadian shows I *ever* saw is called "Talking To Americans" ... hahahahahaha ...
Both. It is amusing when movies set in the United States and all of a sudden you see downtown Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver. It's even better when something's filmed in Tornto, it's supposed to be New York or wherever, and all of a sudden a streetcar goes by in the background.
Now, if your stuck in horrific traffic and half of downtown is snarled up because of movie shoots, it's damn fustrating. It's also annoying when one evening you see orange cones sprouting along the side of the road, up and down the street. That means that the neighbourhood is about to be strangled by another film shoot and it'll be next to impossible to get to or from the house.
Also, as Selkirk indicates, the money is appreciated. For example, I directly benefitted from a film shoot back in September where I was requested for a night shift at a big department store where a film was being shot. Likewise, all the other people working in the film business and the supporting industries benefit, too.
It's really a mixed bag of tradeoffs and benefits, overall.
-Robert King
Neat shots. When was the last time you saw an MTA car with blinker doors, eh? It actually is odd that they're using 2200's - usually CTA uses 2400's or 3200's for movie shoots.
Frank Hicks
Well, Brooklyn's PCCs had blinker doors, FWIW.
So did the Blue Geese and Green Hornets, come to think of it.
Oh, that is FUNNY - Imagine seeing one of those IRT-sized beasts on the Rarely! With the blinker doors and all...
wayne
THAT makes up for "Meet the Parents," which used a Brooklyn elevated as an establishing shot for a scene set in Chicago!!
Does seem to suggest that the production values of today are, "I'll have three feet of subway please." (referring to three feet of film) :)
Three feet, which then equates to less than two seconds of viewing time!
-Robert King
For the past 3wks, I have been seeing a few units of the DM passenger cars in the station at Shea Stadium. Are they being serviced? or stored there?...I really can't what seems to be going on there, I am asking if anyone has heard anything about it.
I'm sitting in a class right now, but a kid nearby me just got beeped by one of the local news stations, apparantly 30th St station in Philadelphia is being evacuated, a dog got a scent on a suspicious bag. I don't have a TV, just my laptop, and so far have only found something on NBC10.com. According to NBC10, all amtrak service is suspended up and down the NEC, all SEPTA service is delayed, no word on NJT service. Looks like I'll be taking PATCO home.
Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.
Harmless briefcase; station evacuated for an hour; train service screwed up for longer than that.
Harmless briefcase; station evacuated for an hour; train service screwed up for longer than that.
This is certainly a neat number for a subway car, especially since it is also my phone number.
I don't particularly remember seeing this car when the IND loaned 30 R-10's to the BMT in 1954 to familiarize BMT crews for the pending arrival of the R-16's. It should have been one of the cars since its number was in the middle of those cars loaned.
Does anyone know if 3333 served a full and complete life, or did it fall on hard times before the R-10's were scrapped?
>>Does anyone know if 3333 served a full and complete life, or did it fall on hard times before the R-10's were scrapped?<<
Uhhh....hard times isn't an accurate description. Check out this site under subway rolling stock or this URL:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r10.html
I took those pictures on Dec. 1980 before it was scrapped. #3333 was involved in the 59th St/Columbus Circle wreck where vandals was believed to set a hand brake in the rear car, causing the train to derail. #3333 derailed and struck some steel columns in the tunnel. Those wrecked columns had to be replaced, since they support the street above. The car was literally sliced open as you can see. If my memory serves me correct, no one in the car was killed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Uhhh....hard times isn't an accurate description. Check out this site under subway rolling stock or this URL:
I guess that's an understatement. Poor 3333 took a hard death!
Yes, she died hard. She was the sixth car in that "CC" train, and when she split the pillar, she took the following car, #3274 with her. #3274 bounced around and hit the tunnel wall on her right side. The next car, #2975, hit #3274's rear and damaged her crown and anticlimber. The accident occurred at 5:43PM on December 12, 1978.
In 1980, I got to visit her on Death Row at 207th Streetn Yard, prior to her transfer to Coney Island for scrapping. A tarpaulin covered her shattered end. The damaged steel had already been cut away, so when I saw her, she was in pretty much the same condition as shown in Bill Newkirk's photo.
I have her dogtag right here in front of me, slightly dented but intact, a souvenir of my visit to 207th Street yard that day.
wayne
I took a picture of R-33 #8888 back on January 21, 2002. A picture of that car is on the www.nycsubway.org illustrated car roster.
#3 West End Jeff
OUCH!!!!!!
Look at the car next to 3333. Why, it's Seashore's own 800! They must have had the museum R-1/9 train parked on the adjacent track.
>>>"it's Seashore's own 800"<<<
It looks like 600 to me. Maybe I'm having a senior moment.
;-) Sparky
I'm pretty sure it's 800. By that time, the R-1/9s were all gone save for the Museum Train, of which 800 was a part of. 1689 was already at Shoreline by then.
Steve,
O.K., my eyes may be failing, but what I read that when the carcass,
was moved to Coney Island it was tarped. I'd expect to find 800
at Coney Island, in the time frame suggested, not 207 or Concourse.
So was it tarped or not tarped as the photo suggest and location pleeze?
;-) Sparky
800 and 1440 were still at Coney Island before the "great purge" of equipment (this was 1980 when it was pictured next to 3333). Also note that during this time, Branford's 5466 was still TA owned, as was the other 4 working Lo-Vs. These days we can't find a working R-1/9 Train, nor do we see the Lo-Vs on the road. That's unfortunate.
Can anyone identify the IRT car behind 3333? I would have said R-22 7602.
-Stef
>>Can anyone identify the IRT car behind 3333? I would have said R-22 7602.<<
Did you notice the IRT hose car which now resides at Branford, at the end of the line ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Who better to identify the cars in the picture, then the photographer. >G<
;-) Sparky
No, couldn't make it out too clearly. I thought I was staring at a BMT work car.
That's one very lucky hose car!
-Stef
>>No, couldn't make it out too clearly. I thought I was staring at a BMT work car.
That's one very lucky hose car!<<
The day I took that pic of #3333, they were getting the hose car ready for the trip to East Haven. The BMT Standard (#2775) went up the following week.
Bill "Newkirk"
What AB Standard is on the truck behind 3333?!? I'd thought I'd ask since we're on the subject.
-Stef
#2775, the one up at Branford.
Those photos of #3333 were taken a week apart. Because the hose car went up one week, and #2775 the following week. When #2775 went up, early one cold December morning, I followed it all the way up to Branford, taken pictures along the way.
Also following were Al & Billy Hirsch and Glenn Smith. We arrived at Sprague around 10 o'clock at night. The trip was slow but what made it worse was the trailer was made to haul boats and not 67' steel subway cars. The result was three interruptions along I-95 because of a blown flat tire. That BMT Standard was no light weight, which caused a tire to blow out thus stopping the caravan. You shoulda been there !
Bill "Newkirk"
Was 2775 transported on its trucks, or was it lifted off them? Eddie S. told me 1689 came to the museum off its trucks, then remounted once they got it off the flatbed.
>>Was 2775 transported on its trucks, or was it lifted off them? Eddie S. told me 1689 came to the museum off its trucks, then remounted once they got it off the flatbed.<<
The trucks were shipped separate.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
Thanks for the trip "Down Memory Lane".
BTW what your membership number?
;-) Sparky
>>BTW what your membership number?<<
# 2341
Bill "Newkirk"
O.K. Bill,
You was a spectator recording Branford History then with Albee and
Billie. Welcome aboard NOW!!! Thought you had more seniority
then me.
;-) Sparky
Thanks Stef,
;-) Sparky
One of the most gruesome wrecks I've ever seen; similar damage pattern to R16 #6304 (with #3333's point of impact being just inside the corner and right behind that rear-facing seat [IF ANYONE was sitting there they would surely have died]). It was fortunate indeed that nobody was in that part of the car when she hit the pillar.
wayne
Now had a BMT standard been involved, it would have taken out the I-beams and come away with perhaps a few scrapes and bruises, if not a broken light bulb.
Here we go again, it's Subway Demolition Derby Talk.:)
I.E. AB #2299. Yes, that was a good dent there, but not enough to skew the carbody. And it did blow up the little bulb over the door. The curtain wall still stands damaged there.
wayne
Or 2779 when it took out half of a platform at Ocean Parkway and came out of it with nothing more than a couple of dents.
How ironic is that this thread is discussing about the fate of R-10 car #3333 for two simple reasons, but one of them unrelated in a sense...
1. It is being discussed on the anniversary when the R-10's were placed in regular service on Saturday, November 20, 1948 (54 years ago today on this date) on the IND "A" line, which was operated then between Washington Heights-207th Street and Broadway-East New York. The following Sunday, November 28, "A" train service would be extended onto the new Pitkin Avenue extension towards Euclid Avenue, with Pitkin Yard open for business with a 585 car storage capacity.
2. The day after the wreck of #3333, I was watching an episode at home of my all-time favorite game show on WABC-TV Channel 7 at 12:00noon (Eastern) "The $20,000 Pyramid", with host Dick Clark and celebrity guests Anita Gillette and David Letterman, which the first time I would ever see him ever on that show and on that broadcast (production number #1181 airing on Wednesday, December 13, 1978). Now, thanks to cable's Game Show Network, which I have been receiving here on the New York City-based Time Warner cable system (DTV channel 117), I have a VHS taped copy of that same program and episode after so many years later, always reminding me of the wreck of #3333 that happened during that time.
By the way, "Pyramid" taped at ABC Studio TV-15, 202 West 58th Street between Broadway and 7th Avenue, between June 1974 and April 1981. Once a former legitmate theater (closed and demolished in 1985, and replaced by a choir school building), this TV facility itself was located a few blocks away from the IND 59th Street-Columbus Circle station on 8th Avenue.
Sincerely,
William A. Padron
"Mr. R-10"
Author of "The Pyramid Game Show's Years In New York City"
http://www.xanfan.com/pyramid/padronarticle.htm
I used to go see the taping of that show all the time in the late 70's. In fact I just found a whole bunch of photographs that I took, both outside the studio of guests coming and going, and inside during taping.
Maybe I'll post some on my site soon.
-Larry
I don't see why we can't say Happy Anniversary to an immortal fleet, even though the R-10s are no longer among us.
Steve
Why not, IIRC there's a survivor in Coney Island and a look-a-like
at Court Street.
That's more than we can say for the Multis of the BMT Subway Division
or the 6000 Peter Witts of the B&QT Surface Division.
;-) Sparky
1575 doesn't count. It LOOKS like an R-10 and THINKS it's an R-10, but it's not the real McCoy. Reminds me of a Quick Draw McGraw cartoon in which he is confronted by his no-good lookalike, Horseface Harry.
I concur,
that's why I would like to get 1575 relocated to the Connecticut
Sound Shore. I'm devious.
:-) Sparky
At least that way 1689 would have a playmate (with all due respect to 5466), and I could play conductor for real on a pair of IND old timers.:)
What do you think, Kev?
No offense to the "best we can do" reality of the LoV and 1689 making hot monkey love with the irons, but even an R10 imposter would be keeping it within the gene pool. Guess we've gotta find a flivver somewhere for 5466 to keep the nuptial attorneys at bay. Seriously though, I'd LOVE to see it happen just to keep Hylan's offspring separate from those pesky "traction interests" ... :)
5466 is a plain old standard Lo-V. Flivvers weren't compatible with standard Lo-Vs. Or Hi-Vs, for that matter.
At least all of the R-1/9s could and did operate together. Ditto for the BMT standards. It's interesting that the IRT had a Lo-V fleet whose cars were not fully compatible with each other. The Flivvers of yesteryear are kind of like today's R-44s and R-46s.
Feh. Pull the power and they're compatible. You just drag them along the rails to polish them. :)
Yeah, iron-to-iron would work. You could couple just about any two cars together that way. It just wouldn't be the same as two cars actually running in m. u.
Heh. You'd need "two of a kind" for that. Ya takes what ya gets, or ya gets nothing. Many folks aside from you and I need to learn that yet. :)
I wouldn't want to see 1689 coupled to an R-10. As fond as I am of both car classes, they're like oil and water. They just don't mix.
Nope, but 1575 WOULD. After all, it's one of them Arnine variants. It's when someone knocked that car into a consist of REAL R10's that all heck broke loose. :)
And it DID happen here and there only for the crew to find out it wouldn't move. Heh.
1575 THOUGHT it was an R-10 even though it still had the guts of an R-7A. I know it would m. u. with 1689 just fine; in fact, I wouldn't mind it at all. At least I could play conductor the way it was meant to be, right?:)
Hope you don't mind if I lock the storm door while you're out there. Heh. But yeah, two cars are more fun than one. And ten are even sweeter. :)
Practical joker...... We'll just have to make sure you're running the train in that case. And yeah, the more cars, the merrier.
Maybe Branford can acquire it some day. That'd be a real mindfork. :)
What did you say was different about 1575? I probably asked you before, but did you ever get to operate it? Handle time on it would be interesting, to say the least.
I don't recall ever setting foot on that car in "operations" ... I DID ride it once or twice though. It's a standard Arnine in the cab, the pneumatics I'm not sure of but were also probably the same, it always lived among the Arnines so I would imagine it *is* an Arnine other than the metal cage for the geese. The BREAKER PANELS were supposedly laid out differently and a few things in the cab were moved to pretty much where they were in R10's, which supposedly confused the qwap out of crews and that's why it was usually put somewhere in the middle but away from the center in its consists ... like car 3, car 8, that kinda middle ...
It also seemed to run as the lead motor quite a bit. I never saw it in revenue service.
THAT I never saw ... the only times I ever saw the fake R10 was somewhere out of the crew's hair. And just LIKE the R10's, its brakes would lock and it'd go ******BANG!!!!!!****** when the rest of the train dragged it ...
1575 doesn't ring a bell in my memory bank, either in a train or
leader of same. Numerous photos over the years, show it as the
lead car though.
The two arnine oddities, that I remember most are 484, bullseye
lighting and 1741 with the orange & blue interior. If they were
based at Jamaica at the time, must have spent much time on the "GG".
Also IIRC on the 'A' enroute to high school, R-10s & R-16s in the
same train.
BTW, the last time I mentioned the acquisition of 1575 for Branford,
our Trademeister, said to leave it at Court Street. Well, a certain
subterranean group at the annual pow wow, were instrumental in
relecting him to the board off the floor last weekend. Payback Time.
;-) Sparky
Maybe Thurston can help sway them.:)
So you actually saw R-10s and R-16s lashed up together, eh? I read about that in New York City Subway Cars. Can you recall if R-16s were in the middle of the train at the conductor's post, or did it go either way?
1575 wound up on the Eastern Division and finished its career there.
Here are a couple of pics of it during its later days. Someone must have stuck an R-16 destination curtain in its front slot.
It's the lead motor in all of the photos in the car section where it's in revenue service.
Well, where she's signed "M" she's the NORTH motor, the photo shows her dutifully bringing up the Mary's rear. I like that destination sign!
wayne
OTOH here are examples of what was common practice with those cars on the Eastern Division; i. e., destination curtain cranked all the way to the end.
Steve,
Yes that's what I remember, route yes, destination no.
Also 1575 as the South motor of the (M) at Lorimer Street
is going right past Mr. R-9s (Eddie S) abode. >G<
Thanks for the Kodak moments.
;-) Sparky
Eddie told me once his family lived on Montrose Ave. I often wondered if that was closer to Queen of Angels Church instead of Annunciation.
It's Montrose between Lorimer Street & Union Avenue in Lindsay Park.
That's the apartment complex in the background of the picture.
So he's furthest North from the Broadway Brooklyn BMT EL.
;-) Sparky
Them was the rules at the time - if it ain't on the curtain, roll it to the end and be careful that it don't come off the roller. :)
There's a metal rod that's threaded through the end of the curtain and inserted inside the cylinder on the mechanism. Still, you could tear the canvas if you twisted the crank handle hard enough at the end of the roll or if the canvas was brittle.
And that was the risk since that thread was often dried out and if you ever wanted to get out of the terminal on time with a train that was borrowed from another line, you'd learn to CRANK that puppy for all it was worth. That's why ya had to be careful when you got close to the end ... I did manage to lose a few.
>>>"Can you recall if R-16s were in the middle of the train at the conductor's post, or did it go either way?"<<<
IIRC, middle of the train, most likely at conductor's post.
>>>"1575 wound up on the Eastern Division and finished its career there."<<<
>>>"Here are a couple of pics of it during its later days. Someone must have stuck an R-16 destination curtain in its front slot."<<<
IMO, those were the destination curtains put in the R-9s when they
went to Eastern Division for there last hurrah. Wayne, has suggested
that we also incorporate these into the 1689 curtain. If space
permits and they are available, why not.
;-) Sparky
When the R-7/9s were sent over to the Eastern Division, they did not receive new bulkhead destination curtains. Oddly enough, their IND front destination curtains were left in place in most cases and simply cranked all the way to the end. Such was the case on every single R-7/9 LL train I rode on in 1969-70.
Now, they DID receive brand new side destination curtains. I have examples of both upper and lower curtains, one of which was spliced onto an old Southern Division curtain used on the R-1s when they ran on the BMT. The side signs did not illuminate on the Eastern Division. The light bulbs were removed from the sign boxes and the curtains didn't have any holes cut out to permit access to the lamp sockets.
Here's more proof that 1575 has an R-16 destination curtain. Compare these two photos.
Those fonts look identical to me.
You DID notice that the entire box came out on the bulkheads at Branford. So it was a simple matter of just lifting out the IND one, throwing in an R16 assembly and let the roller changers do what they needed to do with what they had for those. A few of the trains I ran on the Brighton DID have Brighton Beach in there, but not all that many. Natch, they ALL had Coney, but we weren't supposed to display that unless we were running Brighton local.
Steve,
I have to agree with Selkirk about exchanging the destination box.
Other things I notice when viewing your photo. Red & Yellow on
the North Motor, where there are no diverging routes. Also the
persons lurking at the railfan window, looks likes "foamers".
Could have been a "Foamer Trip" >G<
;-) Sparky
They may have had R-32 curtains installed. AFAIK the destination mechansims were retained on the R-32s because that's where those original multicolored curtains were installed.
Could be ... roll curtains were one of those minor things in the mind of motorpeople ... if it was there and worked, all well and good, if it wasn't, so be it. I was a lot more concerned about having my air, doing the rolling brake test and such and getting out on time. Most of the time, that stuff was already set, just a matter of dropping the lid, checking, throwing the levers for the right markers and setting up to go. :)
Shall I check with Mr. Fiori as to the availability of any of these?
wayne
Wane,
All contributions graciously accepted, but would Mr. R-9 allow it?
Those curtains are most likely available from his cohorts at
the "Roll Sign Shop". IMO, space doesn't permit all those signs.
;-) Sparky
The bulkhead sign assemblies on Arnines actually can be swapped out rather easily. If an entire ASSEMBLY is available with the BMT rolls on it, it's a matter of lifting out the other one and tossing in the other as required. On some cars of that class, you had to loosen screws and in some others, it was just a matter of lifting up and out and whipping in another box in its place. Changing rolls though is a pain in the butt, however changing sign assemblies wasn't all THAT hard to do.
I swapped out a destination curtain on my mechanism when I got Charles Fiori's. The most combersome part is rolling up one curtain as you're removing it and unrolling the other as you're installing it.
Fortunately never had to do anything like that ... but they were fragile 30 years ago, that's why I was so paranoid about moving the ones at Branford for fear they'd powder ... they're in mighty good shape, considering ...
The ones in my sign box are still holding up, but I've had to do some stitching at one of the splices in the upper destination curtain.
Oilcloth doesn't have the longest life, though it most certainly will outlive floppy disks, VHS tape, CDROMs and most everything "new" ... I find that constantly amusing that ancient cruddy roll signs outlive our current "archival materials." Maybe we ought to look into "papyrus technology." :)
That destination curtain I got from Charles Fiori is in great shape. "Wash. Hts 207th St." is in pristine condition, as if the car that curtain came out of never served as lead motor on an A train. Even that BMT standard route curtain I got from him is in excellebt shape. The upper destination curtain in my sign box is on the brittle side, though. A piece of a rocker panel molding fastener fell in there once and cut through the curtain right at the Concourse-Bedford Pk. sign. Luckily I stopped cranking when I heard a tearing sound and was able to tape it up.
MR. R-10 STRIKES AGAIN !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
And we didn't even have to page him!:)
Bill & Wayne,
Thanks for all of the information!
I guess that she lasted for at least 3/4 of her expected life.
Just when Bill "Newkirk" finished lamenting that there have not been many new "theme/ad" cards in a while. To which I posted that one of the reasons was the abuses that affected the distribution of the cards.
Well the MTA has taken a diverging route on us and has come up with "The Safety Card" (that's what I call it).
Today on the way home I found a card (disgarded naturally) that caught my eye. The back looked just like your plain everyday card BUT instead of the Instructions for use in the bus or subway it had:
Why run for the train? There's another one just like it on the way.
Going your way - the safe way.
The verbage is bordered by the same black and white (actually the black looks more gray) stripes that one would associate with the C/R stopping board at a station.
I don't know if the card was a machine issue or Booth issue.
These will probably be a wide issue card (and hopefully there won't be any distribution related abuses to ruin it).
Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully NYCT may take my suggestion of using backs of Metrocards for major lenghty service disruptions. even advertise the Transit Museum gift shop. A no brainer when you come to think of it.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is also one for the Zegat Restent guide out there. I say the guys putting them into the MVM @ 42st & 8Av. I asked if I could get one since I work for the TA and they said no.
Robert
I wonder if anyone collects the Metrocards that have the Monthly/Weekly LIRR tickets printed on the other side?
I wonder if anyone collects the Metrocards that have the Monthly/Weekly LIRR tickets printed on the other side?
I always throw out the expired mail 'n' ride at the end of the month, to avoid the possibility of taking the "wrong" one some morning.
Peter - I think you just made a number of people groan.
Maybe you should work out a deal with someone on Subtalk to mail the expired card to him/her for their collection (they can send you a supply of stamped envelopes). That way you don't wind up accidentally using an expired card and you will make a collector very happy.
I'll second that.
BTW, I have a friend in Atlanta, and a SubTalker, who saves his monthly passes for me. And another friend in Boston who is able to give me one of his monthlys a year. I had still another friend in Chicago, but I haven't heard from him recently.
All this without laying out cash, that's what makes my collection so special !
Bob is obviously interested in old LIRR photos, etc. so I sure someone out there has something to offer him in trade for his trouble !
P.S. I have a couple of extra LIRR/MC round trips for trade, one is saved for a friend from the Bronx, but I would be happy to trade the others.
>>I wonder if anyone collects the Metrocards that have the Monthly/Weekly LIRR tickets printed on the other side? <<
I have the following I can part with:
.....City Zone 1 and Massapequa Park Zone 7,
Jamaica Zone 3 and Massapequa Park Zone 7,
......City Zone 1 and Syosset Zone 7 (creased in middle).
These are monthly passes on the back of Metrocards.
e-mail me if interested.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mmm, I'll have to make sure if they are issued in stores as well. Kind of catchy and corny at the same time.
There is also a machine only promotion of Fodor's with the cards featuring one of four featurew restaturants. I did not post a list because of low volume and : in selected machines"
I will post any booth issued cards and any wide distribution machine issued cards.
If you know where some of these machines are could you please post the info ? Thanks.
A friend who works in Manhattan found one at 42nd.
Could you be any more vague?
Here is exactly what he said: "I was yesterday evening at subway station on 42 and I bought so-called safety card at MVM. There I found
only two machines sold those cards ..."
Now he works accross from Penn Station, on 7th Ave, so I assume he was at the IRT side of Times Sq. Hope that helps.
There are a lot of machines in that station! I was hanging out last night at the 42nd Street west side mezzanine, trying to eyeball MetroCards as they came out of machines (which isn't easy!). I didn't see anything but the normal MetroCards.
I already have four Fun Passes in my wallet from earlier attempts to find them, so I wasn't about to buy more.
I didn't check the 41st Street booth. (The 40th Street booth is closed by that time, I think.)
Attention Subway-Buff we need Peggy's H-E-L-P.
I spoke to Peggy. The answer is "unable to help. The cards are assigned to random machines in random locations. No new cards at booths"
from subway-buff: Teh only action at booths was a test in midtown of cards from a new supplier but they look liek the othert manufacturer.
Please thank her for the input, I knew she would have the detail.
Guess my friend got lucky !
Just like me Tuesday when Mickey D's had a one-day toy, went back to get a second < g >
This card is available at MVM #0517. MVM #0517 is the middle MVM of the three to the right of the booth at the south end of Herald Square BMT. The card may also be available at that mezzanine's other machines, but it isn't available at all MVM's in the station complex.
I'd like to know if anybody on here uses a 'Polarizer' on their camera. I know what kind of effect it has on Daylight photos. But I've wondered if there are any advantages using it in very low light (Such as underground).
Thanks
You'd probably ONLY want to use a polarizer in daylight. On a sunny day it'll make the blue sky VERY dark. A polarizing filter rotates on its mount so you can turn it to adjust how much polarization is in effect. Compare these two photos:
Same location, same camera, same time of day. One with a lot of polarization and one without. (Fuji Velvia 50 slide film)
On a less sunny day you might filter some of the haze or cloudiness and get a slightly blue-er sky. But I doubt you'd want to use one indoors, or at night or underground.
-Dave
I don't usually get as much contrast as Dave's examples when I use my polarizing filter, but just enough to make a real difference. These photos...
were taken in late afternoon, with light low on the horizon. Without the filter, the bay and sky color would have been too similar and blended, taking the life out of the pictures. I've never tried to use the filter in the black of night, though.
Keystone Transit Page
It really works well on daylight photos with puffy clouds, it makes the picture darker if there's low light (underground). If you have a picture on an Elevated with a train coming at you and there are plenty of spread out puffy clouds, that is ideal for a polarizer.
The only application that a polarizer would have underground or in low light that I can think of, where no blue sky is present, would be to remove the reflections on train windows. Personally, I don't think it's necessary to do that and you encounter a substantial light loss due to the filter factor of it.
-Robert King
hey has anyone seen the LIRR's new signal yet? according to LIRR personnel i meet with on a daily basis, they put it above the atlantic branch when it comes out of the whole before jamaica headed westbound, its on the track next to the atlantic hole. it can be seen by Westbound Hempstead, Ronkonkoma, Babylon/Montauk trains, W hempstead, anything that goes down the mainline of LIRR (HOLLIS, QUEENS VILLAGE, ETC). it looks like a Metro North signal from the side, but what does it look like from the front? anyone can respond if they have seen it, it is a LOW HOME SIGNAL
It's probably a 3 stacked SafTran modular dwarf made of independant cast units.
A recent thread on airliners.net involves the identity of passenger rail cars shown in the background of a picture taken at Miami International Airport. They're on FEC trackage not used for passenger service. My thought is that they might be from the RBB&B circus train. Does that seem right?
It could be Ringlig Bros, but doing an image search shows their trains have a red label that's not in the a.net photo.
The freight car on the right is a ballast hopper. The passenger cars seems to be connected (logically) to the hopper as part of a work train.
The Circus train is operated as a red unit and blue unit. During Easter, both DC and NYC host the Ringling Bros circus at the same time with a red unit in one city and the blue unit in the other. These passenger cars in the photo have neither a red or blue banner, and therefore not the Ringling Bros train.
Looking at the photo, the car on the left has two baggage doors (with small, higher windows) in the side, and the car on the right has one (towards the left hand end of the car), although from their window pattern they are obviously former coaches or café cars (the baggage doors are later additions). There is also a caboose bringing up the rear of the train. I suspect that they are in MOW service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is something to get your locomotives moving:
Since all this talk about the Culver Express being put to good use why not the other lines that have express track say for instance:
West End line: 9th ave to Bay parkway, which should be express M or W?
Sea Beach Line: reconfigure the entire line at Kings Hwy to make an express stop and Ave U at termination of express track and a 2 track line all the way to Stillwell
make use of a 3 train extension to the Bronx and let it go the with the 4 line to Woodlawn or better yet Bedford Park Blvd to create a Bronx express on the Jerome Ave line.
Rockaway 88 st to Howard Beach maybe for Rockaway Park A trains or can this be for A - Far Rockaways and Rock Park
1/9 make use of the middle track above 96 st and use skip stop more effectively in between 137th to Dyckman and use the middle to track to go straight to 242st they did use this in the 70's
THIS ONE IS OFF TOPIC BUT SOMEONE SHOULD RE-VISIT THIS SOMEDAY
Last but least Staten island should it have a subway run along the Staten Island Expressway (I-278) into Brooklyn and to Terminate in Jersey using Goethals to Elizabeth?
Great ideas!
This I-278 option will require heavy $. They have been trying to get a line from Richmond to Kings since the 1920s. The last chance was in 1959 with the Narrows Bridge, but Moses kept the trains off the bridge.
Where's the money coming from? Bloomjerk?
I don't know about that Jerome Ave express stuff. Does not make much sense to me. At best, I'd like to see some trains drop out at Bedford, and layup at Mosh right from there. This would reduce congestion at Woodlawn. But it could also cause congestion on the road, and reduce customer satisfaction when passengers wishing to continue have to get off at Bedford, and wait just to continue just two stops.
Since all this talk about the Culver Express being put to good use why not the other lines that have express track say for instance:
I'm afraid I must disagree with your premise. Sometimes the use of an express track is helpful, but sometimes the use of an express track is harmful. Recall the much-disliked W express on the Astoria line, which bypassed the busiest stations. Now that the W is running local, it's providing better service.
West End line: 9th ave to Bay parkway, which should be express M or W?
Neither.
If the W went express, then everyone at local stations would have no choice but to transfer to get to Midtown. That's not a good service arrangement if it's avoidable.
If the M went express, not many people would bother riding it, and local stations would lose their direct access to lower Manhattan.
Sea Beach Line: reconfigure the entire line at Kings Hwy to make an express stop and Ave U at termination of express track and a 2 track line all the way to Stillwell
Most of the Sea Beach passengers use the stations at the north end of the line. Any sort of express service would yield empty expresses and crowded locals.
make use of a 3 train extension to the Bronx and let it go the with the 4 line to Woodlawn or better yet Bedford Park Blvd to create a Bronx express on the Jerome Ave line.
A connection between the 3 and the 4 would be useful for the flexibility it would offer -- just as 2's and 5's can switch places in Manhattan, so could 3's and 4's. But express service on the Jerome line isn't necessary. Remember that the Concourse line is very close by and it has peak express service. How much service does the Concourse-Jerome corridor need? It already has quite a bit.
Rockaway 88 st to Howard Beach maybe for Rockaway Park A trains or can this be for A - Far Rockaways and Rock Park
Express, you mean? Not necessarily a bad idea, but the tracks aren't set up to make this possible. Ideally, I'd like to see the four-track section north of N. Conduit restored, with all four tracks curving into a new four-track Rockaway Boulevard station. South of N. Conduit, the express tracks would rise up and turn towards JFK. But we all know that's not going to happen.
1/9 make use of the middle track above 96 st and use skip stop more effectively in between 137th to Dyckman and use the middle to track to go straight to 242st they did use this in the 70's
The stations south of 137 are much, much busier than the stations north of 137. They need more service, not less. The middle tracks haven't been used on a regular basis since the 50's or so, certainly not in the 70's. In the 70's and 80's, alternate rush hour trains terminated at 137, but everything ran local. In 1989, the short-turns were eliminated (extended to 242) and skip-stop service began. A number of SubTalkers have called for a restoration of something similar to the pre-1989 pattern, since skip-stop doesn't seem to help at all north of 137 and the stations south of 137 need more service than they're getting.
THIS ONE IS OFF TOPIC BUT SOMEONE SHOULD RE-VISIT THIS SOMEDAY
Last but least Staten island should it have a subway run along the Staten Island Expressway (I-278) into Brooklyn and to Terminate in Jersey using Goethals to Elizabeth?
An expressway is a relatively inexpensive place to run a transit line but it's not usually a useful place. For transit to work, people need to live nearby, but people tend to avoid living close to expressways. One of the Staten Islanders here can tell us if that's the case in Staten Island, specifically. Either way, though, the money should be spent where it could benefit more people -- build the 2nd Avenue line, extend the 7 to Javits, reconfigure 137 into a proper terminal, etc.
Is it physicall possible to run the 3 train on to the Jerome El? When the 2/5 meet the 4 at 149 St, they are on different levels.
Express, you mean? Not necessarily a bad idea, but the tracks aren't set up to make this possible. Ideally, I'd like to see the four-track section north of N. Conduit restored, with all four tracks curving into a new four-track Rockaway Boulevard station. South of N. Conduit, the express tracks would rise up and turn towards JFK. But we all know that's not going to happen.
I like that idea! I know we all talked this to death, so I won't rehash it again, but It's amazing that the easiest direct subway access to JFK is just rotting (in both the express tracks, and the abandoned LIRR branch). Two seperate services, from the QB line and from the Fulton Express, meeting at the Liberty el, and then both running on the express tracks from there on, and then into JFK (with Fulton Local staying on the local tracks and continuing to Rockaway).
Actually, my idea was rebuild the existing Rockaway Boulevard station with four tracks and two platforms. The four Rockaway branch tracks would curve into those four tracks; trains from Lefferts could fork onto either express or local. The single middle track east ("north") of there would be reconfigured to make it useful. JFK trains would bypass the other two Liberty el stations, on either the local track or the middle track; Lefferts and Rockaway trains would make local stops to Grant.
(Not that any of this will happen.)
I'm surely in a minority, but I don't think the (semi-)abandoned LIRR branch would be useful for a basic transit connection to JFK. It might be good for a premium high-speed service to Penn Station, or it might work as a transit line for some Rockaway trains, but I think simple subway service to JFK should run across Brooklyn on the A/C.
but I don't think the (semi-)abandoned LIRR branch would be useful for a basic transit connection to JFK.
It's the long way. I agree with you.
I say extend the "E" along that unused ROW (from QB) and then to Rockaway Pk. If the Rockaway ROW is 4-tracked the whole length, it could run express along with another service, like the R, running local to some point before Rockaway blvd.
Fine guys but just leave the Sea Beach the hell alone. They have done enough to my train. I want to keep my Sea Beach where it is and eventually put back on the bridge and make it an express in Manhattan again, send it to Coney Island and fix the express tracks to run some expresses to Coney Island for frolickers and those who want to see the Brooklyn Cyclones play in the summer.
So I'm deluding myself. So what? Just leave my Sea Beach alone.
I was just detailing one of the many reasons why Culver Needs express service more than Sea Beach (a.k.a.- why Culver is better than the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton combined.)
Agreed. Culver has more riders than the Sea Beach line and a express srvice needs to be restored. I ride this line[the F] every day and I could tell you firsthand that the F needs it and they should extend the G to Smith-9, it delays the F constantly for about 3-5 minutes and then people end up having to wait another 8-10 minutes so you could wait up to 15 MINUTES before you end up boarding the next G train at Smith-9.
>>"...extend the G to Smith-9, it delays the F constantly for about 3-5 minutes and then people end up having to wait another 8-10 minutes so you could wait up to 15 MINUTES before you end up boarding the next G train at Smith-9."<<
My fault. I meant extend the G to Church Av & the double switch delays the F constantly*
While they're at it, they should bring the Dodgers back to Brooklyn.:)
And convert the B61 back to streetcars.
But the E's terminus is well east of the Rockaway ROW. What would serve Jamaica Center (aside from the J/Z)?
I'm also not sure it's a great idea to send so many different services to a section of the system that has such low ridership -- but seeing as none of this is actually going to happen, I suppose it can't hurt to dream.
But the E's terminus is well east of the Rockaway ROW. What would serve Jamaica Center (aside from the J/Z)?
The Q would serve Jamaica Center. The E runs to Rockaway Pk, because it's going on that branch anyway, so why not give the riders some decent service since the line's out there anyway?
The Queens Boulevard express tracks are already filled up with the E and F. There's no room to add Q service.
That was part of the plan: E/F trains become reduced. About 12 E's, 7-8 Q's and 10-11 F's.
But Lex needs its E's and Brooklyn needs its F's (although I suppose the Brooklyn end could be supplemented by the V).
But Lex needs its E's
I know. That's a problem...
What you could do is reduce both Q and F service to 7/8 tph respectively, and then maintain 15 E tph. In reality, there needs to be more express capacity for this to work. Somehow, I don't see that happening.
There's NO way that you could even think of running F's below 10tph, its unacceptable, and people will notice that. This plan is really more difficult than we actually thought but I believe it can be done if you schedule them correctly but you could trim E service by a few trains but Q's may have to be cut from every 6 min to every 8 min in the rush if you want E's to keep 15tph. I think the QB express tracks could handle 30-34 express trains a hour.
If E service is cut:
E-->12tph
F-->12tph
Q-->8-10tph
30-32tph that's good
If Q service is reduced:
E-->14tph
F-->12tph
Q-->7-8tph
33 tph
That's a crush load so something must be cut and I think trimming E's would probably be a better idea but as David said, its really needed mainly b/c of high volume of the 53 St stations and you can't trim F's anymore since V's already took trains from the F. Now if the R27/R30's were still there AND a super express track is built, it would be more realistic & the # of trains would be sufficient.
Now if the R27/R30's were still there AND a super express track is built, it would be more realistic & the # of trains would be sufficient.
Number of available trainsets is invalid, as you could merely order more trainsets by the time this got underway.
The main issue is track capacity. 30tph is the max for realistic operation. And with that constraint, you really couldn't run this service. You would need another track.
Now, If you look at Paul Matus' plan for an NYCT takeover of the Atlantic Avenue LIRR line, you could do this. Build extensions of Hillside and Archer. Connect Archer Av and Hillside to Jamaica. "Super expresses" reach manhattan through new connections in brooklyn, (I chose Manhattan A/B trax, then up 2nd av via connection at Grand St, and another line through Cranberry tunnel to either Chambers or 34th st, through a proposed Vanderbuilt Av connection to Fulton Av subway.) and E/F trains become much less crowded. Then, the E could be sent to New Rockaway Branch, and you wouldn't need to worry about track capacity.
>>"Number of available trainsets is invalid, as you could merely order more trainsets by the time this got underway."<<
I know, that's if the plan were implemented now. If later on, we could justr wait for the R160 and the R143 option if picked up. If they are smart, they would not scrap the R38, R40/R40M & some R42's as planned since that would only cause another car shortage. I strongly believe that they want to get rid of the 38's and 40's first once the 160's come since most of them didn't get the new floors and they are rusting pretty badly and I predict the 32's will outlive or retire the same time as these cars. I read Paul's plan & I think its a good plan but hey, you can't say we didn't come up with good ideas ourselves.
If they are smart, they would not scrap the R38, R40/R40M & some R42's as planned since that would only cause another car shortage. I strongly believe that they want to get rid of the 38's and 40's first once the 160's come since most of them didn't get the new floors and they are rusting pretty badly and I predict the 32's will outlive or retire the same time as these cars.
These cars need retirement. The R-143 car order adds 212 new cars, without replacing any and the R-160 adds about 50 (53, w/o option orders).
If new expansion came about, then you could add in more cars.
I say extend the "E" along that unused ROW (from QB) and then to Rockaway Pk. If the Rockaway ROW is 4-tracked the whole length, it could run express along with another service, like the R, running local to some point before Rockaway blvd.
It really only needs to be two tracks. Aside from adding the abandoned part of the LIRR Rockaway branch to the subway, providing intermediate subway access to that area of Queens that could really use it, you do not need too much extra service to Rockaway than is already provided. Rememeber the Rockaway Park stations are the least used stations in Queens. What you could do is get rid of the RP shuttle down there and replace it with the E. The E would be WTC to Rockaway Park (which one would be the southern terminal)? But then the V or R would have to be extended to Jamaica Center to replace the E (maybe the G could then be brought back to 71st Street because that station still looses one train if the E leaves the line at 63rd Drive).
The real benefit to this major upgrade of the system would be the new Queens access to the system. Stations after the E leaves QB could be located at:
Yellowstone Blvd
Metropolitan Ave site of the old LIRR Parkside Station
Myrtle Ave
Jamaica Ave site of the old LIRR Brooklyn Manor station - transfer to the J/Z Woodhaven Station
Atlantic Ave use the old LIRR Woodhaven/Atlantic station
101 Ave use the old LIRR Ozone Park Station
Of course 76th Street station has a better chance of being found than this plan hapening. Too bad - but we can dream can't we.
Oh, I forgot to add that at the new subway station at Atlantic Ave, the old LIRR abandoned Woodhaven station underneath would be reopened for a LIRR/subway transfer.
The reason I run both a local and express service to this line is so in order to encourage use of the local train. There's no way you could squeeze more people onto those trains (get ready for 11 car E trains then!)
Of course 76th Street station has a better chance of being found than this plan hapening. Too bad - but we can dream can't we.
Considering that it would have substantially lower costs than building new lines entirely, it's somewhat possible if expansion in Bkyln and Queens were brought up again. I'd also consider NYCT taking over the LIRR Bay Ridge ROW, and operating trains across it from Culver.
It's not possible now, but there have been suggestions in recent days to abandon Lenox Terminal and extend the 3 across the Harlem to the Jerome el.
>>>"recent days"<<< The 1939 map of proposals illustrated the routing.
One problem with that scheme, the linking section has been removed,
the "Polo Grounds Shuttle".
;-)Sparky
Of course -- people had been suggesting a new tunnel (or bridge).
No.
No, but I have an idea to create a new tunnel so it can run on the #4 line during rush hours and terminate at 200th Street or Mosholu Parkway. Of course the #3's new tunnel would have to be dug up to connect right before the upper level of 149 Street Grand Concourse.
Of course depending on how the new tunnel would be made Lenox-148 will become like Dyre and will have alternate trains running to it, or the tunnel could be placed after 148 Street making it like 145 Street on the B where the trains will be extended to the Bronx.
Probably not, because the extension would be too awkward. Lenox Terminal would have to be abandoned if something like this would to occur. A realistic 3 extension would go north of 145th Street, straightaway beneath the Harlem River into the Bronx.
Remember that the Concourse line is very close by and it has peak express service. How much service does the Concourse-Jerome corridor need? It already has quite a bit.
In fact, the obvious question is "Does Concourse express lose more time per passenger than it gains?" - someone (IIRC, it was you, David J. Greenberger) has already demonstrated that the 1/9 skip-stop is a waste of passengers' time - is it the same for the Concourse Express?
YES! The Concourse express reminds me of the Astoria express kind of. The Conc. express is very inconsistent, it often runs local when it should be running express & sometimes its better to just take the B, seeing that the CPW express tracks has a few timers on it now. The Conc. express needs a drastic improvement.
Well, I don't know..as a person who has lived on the Concourse, I don't think the Concourse Express is that important...before some of you get uptight, an express only matters before 145th Street. After that, I'm sorry, it don't matter much. I'ved lived off of 170th St. (local stop), Bedford Park (express stop), and 205th (terminal). I can tell you, I didn't care too much if I was on the CC or D, the D didn't get me there faster enough to make a difference.
Does the line have timers all over it or does it the D take too long to come sometimes? Also, I think it should have a bullet ;-), only after it gets faster lol.
From what I've observed riding the Concourse Exp during PM rush, that ride is pretty slow because it seems to be generally going uphill, particularly in the Bronx. Throw in a couple of timers and you have in my opinion the slowest PM express run in the system. I don't know about the Concourse Exp during the AM rush.
Well, when I worked near 34th Street, and got on the train in the morning at 205th, I would be to work incredibly fast, between the Concourse express run (DEFINATELY was faster in the AM) and the CPW run. I want to say it took me about 30 minutes on a good day, but that was back in '86, and my memory may make it seem batter than it actually was.
I think your memory is pretty accurate. While I've never been on the Concourse Exp during AM rush, I remember in the mid-80's riding the D down CPW when it still had R-42 cars on them. It seemed to be pretty fast. Then again, I was about 10 back then...
It used to be quicker. I've ridden on the express only during PM rush hours, and it's been a few years since my last ride. I may do it again next time I'm in the city, if my R-68 experience on the CPW express is any indication of what the Concourse express run might be like. Those R-68s were pretty quick along CPW and, for that matter, Broadway.
"...seeing that the CPW express tracks has a few timers on it now".
When did they install timers on CPW? From your post, it sounds like it wes pretty recent.
It didn't happen too long ago b/c I rode it a while back [around the summer] & trains at one or a few point(s) slow down considerably [I forgot where exactly] although it is basically a stright run and from what I remember, there were no GO's.
It's a two shot timer that is supposed to allow travel no faster than 45mph. I think that this is unacceptable, considering that it's a run with NO STOPS. Expresses should be allowed to run on that part of the line. Since Field shunting was de-activated anyway, why not remove those timers.
Most timers have been around for a while now...
45 mph is good, some trains don't even reach 40 or take a while, especially the R44's. Now if it governed no more than 30mph on a straightaway, then I would find that UNACCEPTABLE. Remember, most of the signals now are outdated and does not give protection past 50mph & the max speed for most trains is 45-50mph [while IRT's are 55-60 mph since they are lighter, start quicker & shorter in length].
On level trackage, don't expect to see more than 40. If the T/O pushes it, he'll do more than 40. But most of them are cautious. I wonder what would happen to them with all the timers on Canarsie...
The Fulton express is not as fast as it used to be, especially going toward Queens since most T/O's slow down btw bypassing Clinton & Franklin Av, the uphill btw Ralph Av & B'way and it seems like there is a speed timer before it bypasses Shepherd Av. Damn, I miss when T/O's used to whiz by B'way & Utica Av Manhattan bound on that downhill before they put a speed timer on the downhill.
There are nuisance timers (35MPH) all the way from Broadway-East New York to Euclid Avenue, probably to protect the curves. There's also a timer in Franklin Avenue to keep the expresses honest.
wayne
The Fulton St express is all chopped up now. I can rember wating at Rockaway avenue with my dad and seeing a manhattan bound R40 Slant A train whizz by. Almost sounded like it was breaking the sound barrier. Between Bway ENY and Utica used to be the fastest run on the Fulton St Exp, second would have to be between Nostrand and Hoyt-Schemerhorn Manhattan bound.
But those good ole days are gone. Too Bad
Frank D
I wish I could remember how high the bull and pinion gears got up to on that prewar E train I took along the Fulton St. express back in 1969. All I know is we were moving!
There used to be a "45 miles" sign on the n/b express track somewhere around 81st St., which is about what the R-10s would be doing by the time they bore down on that station. They'd leave it in the dust.
They are towards the end of the run both directions, most likely in case T/O's fall asleep coming into the station, especially if a trains is there. Northbound, you not only have a grade at 103 that speeds you up (though 110 really slows you down), there is a rather sharp curve after 116th, and once again, they have to allow that the T/O might not be paying attention, or has dozed off. That timer there is under the same GT post as the others, but is much slower, and is for all purposes a one-shot (penalizes you with an illuminated number slower than the regular GT speed if you don't slow down past the preceding yellow/S to much less than the allowable speed). It is right around the corner and will scare the life out of you if you're not expecting it.
It couldn't have happened too long, possibly a few years since I rarely ride the CPW express but I did notice that it is not as fast as it used to be.
The timer southbound is around 81st street station. Nowadays, not even the normally frisky R38s get over, say, 37MPH on CPW. Everybody's driving very carefully. We did end-to-end (207-to-Lefferts) on the "A" recently, on a nice Phase I R32, hoping to get some good speed, but the only places where we broke 40 were coming into 42nd Street (41) and briefly in Cranberry-Tube (43). On Fulton Express we maxed out around 38.
wayne
You should go the other way [Manhattan bound] whenever you can, its faster & it builds speed more consistently. Also, if you go from the Rockaways, you should be on a train that cracks 40 very easliy, its better on a R38 or in rare instances, an R32/R38 mix since you have the railfan window, there's no stops for 3+ miles and you could peek through the door to speed the speedometer.
The fastest speed on a Queens bound A I was on a while back when the T/O went fast btw Hoyt-Schermerhorn & Nostrand and between Nostrand & Utica Av with both sections clocking in at 43mph on a R38 A.
Wayne, I pretty much know where all the timers are as well as most of the signal numbers. Again, Flatbush 41 said the timers were installed recently or words to that effect. I don't seem to recall any new timers at least not in the last 10 years. Then again, I was enjoying listening to Jtrain Locoweed instructing flatbush about them.
BTW - the timers were re- adjusted in that area about 2 years ago. The posted speed was found to be higher than the timer setting.
Hey Wayne, remember our R-38 jaunt from 207th all the way to Broad Channel? We maxed out at 46 on the ground level straightaway before Broad Channel. That's where that R-10 rocket of an A train hit 50-55 in July of 1969.
Ok here's my opinions:
West End: Right now neither line could be a express due to bad intervals at the rush hour [M is every 10 min & W is every 8 min], not enough rolling stock, well maybe if the option order of R143's are picked up, plus the crossvers at Bay Pkwy n/b may not allow that(I think a switch was removed but I am not sure).
>>"Sea Beach Line: reconfigure the entire line at Kings Hwy to make an express stop and Ave U at termination of express track and a 2 track line all the way to Stillwell"<<
Sea Beach: I had thought of reconfiguring Kings Hwy myself into a express station in a previous post.
>>"Rockaway 88 st to Howard Beach maybe for Rockaway Park A trains or can this be for A - Far Rockaways and Rock Park"<<
Liberty El: I had also suggested that but I would try to reconfigure the tracks after Grant Av so it could also skip 80 St. 's would also skip Grant and N Conduit Av and before/after Howard Beach, if there isn't one already, I would let those trains use the middle tracks.
Astoria El: Reverse peak direction service weekdays.
I'll do the IRT in another post.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Jamaica El:
J--> Move it to the local track all times to run with the M between Marcy and Myrtle Av
Z--> Let the Z run express from Marcy Av to B'way Junction in the peak direction and start skip-stop service from B'way rather than Myrtle and expand the hours to an all day service
I think that is the best solution for the J/Z/M configuration, short of building a new concrete EL on Jamaica Ave. One thing I would change would be to send the J express after Marcy. The should be enough M to cover the three local stations before the Bridge.
Frank D
M also peak express Marcy-Myrtle
J/Z reverse-peak direction skip-stop between Myrtle and Bway J
Do you want to run the Z evenings and late nights???
I think this is not needed.
JONN
Where are you going to with the cars on the Goethals, reroute everyone to the Outerbridge?
West End line: 9th ave to Bay parkway, which should be express M or W?
Sea Beach Line: reconfigure the entire line at Kings Hwy to make an express stop and Ave U at termination of express track and a 2 track line all the way to Stillwell
The difference is that Culver gets about the same amount of riders as Sea Beach and West End combined(but not if 4th av is factored in). Let's also remember that these trains run express on 4th avenue as well.
make use of a 3 train extension to the Bronx and let it go the with the 4 line to Woodlawn or better yet Bedford Park Blvd to create a Bronx express on the Jerome Ave line.
I think that if service were really needed that badly in that area, extra one-way service could be added on the Concourse line.
Rockaway 88 st to Howard Beach maybe for Rockaway Park A trains or can this be for A - Far Rockaways and Rock Park
A better use would be to install switches just west (south) of Rockaway Blvd that would allow trains to reverse after that station. Then, either the lefferts of Rockaway branches could become shuttles during off-peak times. Right now it's impossible, thanks to the fact that the Euclid exp. tracks are in service, and midday headways are 24minutes after the split.
1/9 make use of the middle track above 96 st and use skip stop more effectively in between 137th to Dyckman and use the middle to track to go straight to 242st they did use this in the 70's
Trains past 137th should run express. It would make trains between 137th and 96th emptier.
Last but least Staten island should it have a subway run along the Staten Island Expressway (I-278) into Brooklyn and to Terminate in Jersey using Goethals to Elizabeth?
No money should be spent on subways in NEW JERSEY by a system funded by NEW YORK. In regard to Staten Island service: They need to expand in Queens and Brooklyn before they go there.
No money should be spent on subways in NEW JERSEY by a system funded by NEW YORK.
Then get Jersey to pay for it ;-) turn them into Helots...
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/62487.htm
Maybe this will finally help kill it. The MTA sure is against it. (I'm losing confidence in the LMDC with their continued cheerleading for it.)
Another one:
"Report slams LIRR shuttle to downtown"
http://www.nydailynews.com/11-19-2002/news/local/story/36652p-34617c.html
This one strikes me as something we ALL should watch as a direct lesson of how politics triumphs over logic. I'm placing MY bet on it going ahead anyway since Brookfield is one of the biggest cash contributors to 2/3 of that pesky Albany triumvirat ... the MTA will see the light, even if it requires a shakeup of the administration to get an affirmative vote. Let's see how this shakes out in the end, should be an amusing exercise ...
(Let's see how this shakes out in the end, should be an amusing exercise ...)
Those of us who live in Brooklyn, and ride the IND, are amused.
Not to gloat or anything, but I'm rather amused by the claim that the rail link would reduce LI-Downtown commuting time by an average of only two minutes. Anyone who takes the LIRR to Flatbush knows that there are quick and easy subway connections. Heck, I find Flatbush takes just about the same time as using Penn even though I work well north of Downtown, at Houston Street, and have to change from the 2/3 to the 1/9 at Chambers. My subway trip may be substantially longer if I use Flatbush, but Jamaica-Flatbush on the LIRR has far fewer delays in rush hour than Jamaica-Penn (typical LIRR annoucement: "Attention passengers, we'll be moving shortly, we're just waiting for track space at Penn Station.")
Not that it will matter for much longer. These LIRR-to-Downtown plans have a definite knee-jerk aroma, having been devised in response to Downtown's slump. Business slumps do not last forever, and as soon as Downtown shakes off its doldrums - which may be happening already - the plans will be quietly shelved.
Judging by the Daily News' article, the Brookfield contingent plans to keep up the pressure for this one, though eventually, their proposal is going to crash head-first into NYC racial political trouble, since they'd be killing off a line that serves the Bed-Stuy, East New York and Brownsville areas for an express route that would benefit Nassau-Suffolk communters and high-paid Wall Streets looking for a quick link to their international flights and LA jets at JFK (I can think of other reasons -- like cost-benefit ratios, practicality and overall usefulness of other projects -- to kill the plan, but this will be what drives a stake through its heart in the long run).
Since the LIRR East Side Access plan is already in the works, the money would be far better spent on building a full-length Second Ave. subway line with a connection to the Nassau Loop that would siphon passengers off the IRT Lex, which would then have room for the new LIRR passengers at Grand Central headed downtown on the 4/5 trains. That would give Long Island commuters three options to reach the WTC area -- IND or IRT from Penn Staton, IRT from Grand Central and the IRT or BMT from Flatbush Ave. But the Brookfield people would still face the prospect of having their people mix with the hoi-pelloi, so I doubt they'll be backing that any time soon.
Since the LIRR East Side Access plan is already in the works, the money would be far better spent on building a full-length Second Ave. subway line with a connection to the Nassau Loop ... But the Brookfield people would still face the prospect of having their people mix with the hoi-pelloi, so I doubt they'll be backing that any time soon.
What's funny is that Brookfield is addressing a problem that doesn't really exist. Sure, there are some upscale types, on Wall Street and elsewhere, who won't ride the subway because doing so would require them to rub elbows with us (ick!) Common People, but I strongly suspect that their numbers are pretty small. Pandering to them makes no sense from either an economic or a moral standpoint.
Aside from the World Financial Center downtown, does Brookfield own any major office buildings on Water Street? If so, then financially, they would probably benefit more by pushing a four-track Second Ave. line, with the express trains going to South Ferry and the locals via Nassau. That would give Upper East Siders direct access to both the east and west sides of Lower Manhattan, which would serve to boost the attrativness of the area to a key upper-income component of the city.
Since Brookfield is supposed to be "the largest real estate owner in Lower Manhattan" a few of those Water St. buildings have to be theirs and more people would benefit from a subway line to them than would from an extended LIRR connection.
(Let's see how this shakes out in the end, should be an amusing exercise ...)
Those of us who live in Brooklyn, and ride the IND, are not amused.
I get the feeling that this one just won't win, and it comes down to simple logic. There's a limited amount of money, and better things to do with it. When you compare the ridership of the C, the plan will ultimately fail.
What I really want to know is why the three trains can't share the tunnel. At best, you've got 12 "A" tph and 8 "C" tph, and that's at best. Unless the LIRR has trains coming more than every 6 minutes through that tunnel, they could all share it. And, I doubt there are trains even every 10 minutes.
That WOULD make sense ... but now you'd be mixing FRA with NYCT and that's a no go ... political sausage here, please ignore that man behind the curtain. Gravitation has been suspended by order of law, please return your seat to the full upright position and remain seated until the boat comes to a complete stop in the bus terminal.
But, according to all these plans, the "A" would be going NOWHERE. So, the A would already be sharing the tracks anyway, right?
I dunno ... to me, it's a SILLY plan, them real estate boys should invest in a Ditch Witch or buy a TBM as far as I'm concerned. They're private sector, let them do their OWN big dig. But if the LIRR were to operate in that existing tunnel, *NO* subway train could run in it without an FRA waiver since the LIRR is a "common carrier" (read that as "railroad") as opposed to NYCT's "toy trains" ... can't mix the two on the same iron.
But of course, we wouldn't expect reporters or political "study groups" to figure THAT out. :(
I don't see why it would be that hard to obtain a waiver. Or, the TA could adopt FRA standards, and then everyone (incl. the union) is happy.
Wish I could make you happy, it'd be an EXPENSIVE proposition for NYCT which would logically opt to forget there was a tunnel there for what it'd cost for FRA compliance - the waiver on the other hand would be more possible, but also unlikely. The landlords need to dig a tunnel. I'll pay for the first shovel. :)
the waiver on the other hand would be more possible, but also unlikely.
Under this circumstance? I doubt it. Just get some politicians to scream bloody murder about 9/11, and it would get done.
Elections are over, no need for politicians to do ANYTHING until the next gladhanding event in about two years or so. And we're still waiting for all that money that was supposed to come our way already. I doubt there'll be any more. Podunk needs more border guards lest someone try to burn the outhouse. :(
The "Supershuttle" wouldn't be FRA. That's why it would only run between Jamaica and Manhattan.
My limited understanding is that it would run on the "Brooklyn" line (where the Hempstead train ran) and that is most certainly FRA track. I'm also guessing that the track would continue to run LIRR trains, and that would be the clincher. Unless the plan involves a "Rockaway line" turnover to NYCT and all trackage to Jamaica was NYCT, then the FRA concerns would still be there. I didn't see anything that indicated THIS to be the plan, rather what I saw was that LIRR would use the subway system to get to downtown and if so, then NYCT wouldn't be able to share the trackage as best as I understand the issues.
My impression is that the Brooklyn line will become non-FRA trackage (although still operated by the LIRR) and that through service from points east of Jamaica would be cancelled. (With ESA, that option will exist, though I don't know if it's a good idea.)
Question is simple. Does an FRA railroad operate on the same iron? That's the defining factor. Not like I'm trying to make trouble or anything, that's what the FEDS exist for. :)
No. The line from Jamaica to Brooklyn will not be FRA.
As long as that line is fully separated from FRA rail, then it can happen without much effort other than construction and shoehorning the additional subway trains into the lineup.
And another:
"Critics Pan Commuter Subway"
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-nytrans193009400nov19.story
Perhaps it's best the State runs the system instead of the City.
I agree. All of these people on the take are preventing anything from happening. So much for democracy. 8-)
I'm losing confidence in the LMDC with their continued cheerleading for it.
You actually had confidence in the LMDC to begin with?
The LMDC is one of the worst camel-designing groups I've ever known of.
Remember in June when they came up with those 6 horrible WTC plans designed by committee? They angered those of us who want to rebuild by making them shorter, and in doing so STILL angered the necrocrats by sacrificing the memorial space. Now their new solution is to sacrifice office space so that they can still have their shorter buildings, but fewer of them. Meanwhile the LMDC is controlled by the urban renewal idealists who want to revive all of downtown and build an opera house or something there. Basically while the LMDC wastes their money debating, the site continues to be a pit.
Peter Rosa was right, it'll just be a pit with a wooden fence around it for the next few years. Although he was wrong about the fence being wooden though.
I just wish the Port Authority would say FUCK YOU to the Lower Manahattan Destruction Corporation and hire a good architect to design an INSIPIRING structure. Why does the LMDC even exist? Why did the PA agree to this? When will the FBI finally bust this downtown NY cell of Al-Qaeda?
What has annoyed me most about LMDC is the fact that they 'listened' to what the people at the 'town hall meeting' said. Although the 'buildings are too short' complaint was no. 1, they have focused on the no. 3 complaint: too dense.
The fact that a 1,575ft structure has begun construction AFTER 9/11 in Hong Kong has proven that people aren't afraid to build tall everywhere.
They want to build some replacement broadcast tower in New Jersey ir something, that would be taller and would also have an observation deck and restaurant. Woldn't that be the perfect replacement for WTC (restores height and observation deck, but no offices that high anymore.)
Perhaps wasting time is the point of the LMDC. Have all kinds of meetings and pointless exercises for four years until everyone is burned out. Then go ahead and build when the real estate market gets hot. If that's what its doing, then perhaps its worth it.
Not necessarily. Any government-sponsored committee does that until all members of the board have vested in the pension system. :)
As I understand it, even $ilver$tein wants to reftore the towers to their full height and glory.
Silverstein, as your spelling of it demonstrates cares about the money. He will build what will make him the most money. When he proposed four fifty story towers, it was because he felt that people would be too afraid to have towers higher than that. Now I guess he feels that people have come to their senses.
When he proposed four fifty story towers, it was because he felt that people would be too afraid to have towers higher than that.
Actually, his initial proposal was rebuilding the twin towers, but the PA told him to shy away from this.
<>
Of course - by two stories. LOL
When he proposed four fifty story towers, it was because he felt that people would be too afraid to have towers higher than that. Now I guess he feels that people have come to their senses.
Of course - by two stories. LOL
Peter Rosa was right, it'll just be a pit with a wooden fence around it for the next few years. Although he was wrong about the fence being wooden though.
I probably was wrong about the few years part, unless a decade (or more) will count as a "few years."
My reasoned guess is that the site will still be undeveloped on September 11, 2011.
I probably was wrong about the few years part, unless a decade (or more) will count as a "few years."
My reasoned guess is that the site will still be undeveloped on September 11, 2011.
Heck, why not put a pipe into Ground Zero and turn the Bathtub into a real bathtub? Then we could put a plastic tent over it, heat it up, put dolphins in the water, and call them "memorial dolphins". Cheap, sponsorable, and to the point.
I probably was wrong about the few years part, unless a decade (or more) will count as a "few years."
My reasoned guess is that the site will still be undeveloped on September 11, 2011.
Heck, why not put a pipe into Ground Zero and turn the Bathtub into a real bathtub? Then we could put a plastic tent over it, heat it up, put dolphins in the water, and call them "memorial dolphins". Cheap, sponsorable, and to the point.
I agree, this would be not only a waste of time but a waste of a whole lot of $$ they say it would cost about$3-5 billion. Forget about that, that would only increase the chances the SAS doesn't get back to work and moving the C? RIGHT. It will be chaos if the C gets moved b/c it helps out a LOT, especially at B'way-Nassau & Chambers St & retrofitting the tunnels & it would only help like 7,000 riders daily.This plan made the AirTrain look like it was feasible, which I feel is a waste also! They should have just built it on existing infrastructure [the Rockaway trestles then extend it if they wanted to]...... No way I'm against that 300%
A Connecticut man was killed yesterday after his truck rolled off the back of a ferry and plunged into Long Island Sound, officials said...
New York Times story
According to Newsday the boat was one mile from shore. The announcement telling passengers that they could go down and get in get in their cars had already been made. Wonder if the driver started up the truck and it went into reverse instead of neutral.
Wonder if this is the same boat that brought LIRR caboose 12 from Shoreline Trolley Museum down to Long Island recently ?
Wonder if the driver started up the truck and it went into reverse instead of neutral
Something must have happened to the driver, maybe a heart attack? Other truck drivers who were on the boat said no way this could be a careless accident.
"Other truck drivers who were on the boat said no way this could be a careless accident."
Seems like it requires the juxtaposition of 2 unfortunate items.
1. The truck driver doesn't control his truck. Heart attack or strange malfunction or slip of the hand put it into reverse.
2. The restraints the ferry has in place to keep things on the boat didn't work, maybe because the truck overpowered them or because of some human error like a gate not closed.
2. The restraints the ferry has in place to keep things on the boat didn't work, maybe because the truck overpowered them or because of some human error like a gate not closed.
As of right now, they don't seem to have determined the cause, but there doesn't seem to have been any human failure on the ferry. The truck broke through "three heavy chains" and a steel post.
All indications are that the truck did not slide, it rolled, so the question is: "why was it rolling?" As I mentioned, the other truckers aboard said no way the brakes could have released accidentally or because of an equipment failure. That's why it seems so likely something happened to the trucker.
If a trailer loses air pressure, and drops below a certain level, the "spring brakes" work and stop the vehicle.
Chuck Greene
I'm guessing fowl play here. This stuff just doesn't happen.
Guess #2 was the trucker and his buddy were doing the ever popular 'what does this button do....' and pushed the wrong button.
Don't laugh. It's happened.
Years ago, a DC-6, I believe nearly looped in flight because the f/o activated the 'gust lock' (a device that locks the control surfaces so they don't flap in the wind while the plane's on the ground.).
The reason?
"I wanted to know what would happen if I activated it in flight...."
Come on, how often have you heard of a truck just getting loose and rolling off? It's pretty rare for cars, and I suspect rarer for trucks, as they don't have automatics in them. With cars, inevitably it's some idiot who leaves the engine running, and the car somehow pops into gear and starts rolling off (automatic transmissions have a bit of ommph even with your foot off the gas). Fun when they get into a circle - they go round and round and round. Pretty fast, too...
Naturally, there's not much to do to stop the car beyond shooting out a wheel or two....
I'm guessing fowl play here.
How would birds induce a truck to roll off the back of a ferry boat?
Fowl play?
Ever see the seagulls that follow the Washington State Ferries back and forth on their routes?
They're almost as big as Volkswagens!! (Thanks to passengers on the boats tossing junk food at them....)
LMAO!
I seen them, and you're right, they make a killing off the discarded rinds, crusts, and other assorted junk that takes flight from a ferry. The Tacoma or Wenatchee on it's morning runs must look like a buffet, what with the commuters laden with bagels, croissants, and other food things forced out on the decks to get in their morning smoke.
Back when we lived there, pre-91, I don't remember the exact year, my parents and I were on a ferry headed for Bremerton, IIRC. My mom had gotten some milkshakes before we left from a place on one of the piers adjacent to Coleman (it had been a long, summertime wait, like 2 hours, and we got food to help pass the time). She was still working on hers when we got on the ferry, parked the car, and went up on deck to watch Seattle get smaller and smaller. The shake hadn't come with a lid, and within 10 minutes on deck, some opertunistic seagull had launched one right into the cup! IT was a chocolate shake, and the whiteish color of the seagull excriment made one hell of contrast. Needless to say it went in the trash quickly.
In the summer of 2001 I finally made it back out there after 10 years absense. We didn't make too many rides on the ferries, at least not as many as I would have liked, however on the fourth day we were there we decided to head into the city and see downtown, later we'd meet up with some of our family and go to a Mariners game. We wound up with some extra time, so we decided to ride the Bainbridge Island ferry, since it's just a little over an hour round trip, we'd be back in plenty of time. We got on via the passenger entrance, along with all the commuters, and headed for a spot on deck to sit and watch everything. I ran around the deck snapping photos like crazy. Pretty soon I headed in to grab some Ivars Clam Chowder from the galley.
To me the only clam chowder in the world comes from Seattle, preferably Ivars, and I'd been sampling it from all over in seattle, pretty much everyday I'd had some clam chowder from somewhere that happened to be along where we were going.
I bought my soup, walked out on deck, and realized that I'd forgetten a spoon, and napkins. I considered just drinking it, but ruled that out cause of how hot it was. I left it with my sister, sitting on the bench next to her. While I was gone a seagull landed next to her, she tried to scare it off, but aparantly it just hissed at her, so she ran to get me, I walked out of the galley and onto the exterior deck to find three Seagulls trying to get the plastic top off. Finally one of them succeded, and grabbed the styrofoam container fully in it's beak. It tried to take off, and made it, however, the container broke, and fell into Puget Sound, spilling my clam chowder all down the side of the Tacoma, and whatever remained wound up in the water, inciting dozens of seagulls to come dine on my fresh clams.
The official State bird of Washington should be a Massive Seagull with a few scraps of food hamging out of it's beak
I'm sure you remember the WALLA WALLA -- it now works the Bremerton route. Really looks sad now that it isn't the "Pride of the Fleet" any more....the entire upper deck is covered with seagull poop!!!
(The other boat on Bremerton is the HYAK.)
The sister ship to the WW, SPOKANE, works the Edmonds-Kingston Route now, with the PUYALLUP.
Worst place for the damn seagulls is the outside seating area next to the ferry and fireboat docks at Ivar's....and to think, the restaurant ENCOURAGES feeding the seagulls!
I remember the Walla Walla, the Brady Bunch ship of the fleet. I was convinced that the same lady that we rented a house in Magnolia lived on one of those things (both looked like bad 1970s time capsules). I have vivid memories of poor weather trips where I would huddle in the orangle glassed passenger shelters on the top deck, trying to stay warm, and yet not wanting to go in and possibly miss something.
Geez, if Hyak is it's partner, then that must be one heck of a trip back every day, a real trip back in time. Both ships haven't seen a refurbishing for a long time, if ever, and it must be a fun ride.
However, I think that the Kitsap may be back on the run, Vessel Watch shows it docked at coleman right now, but Ferrycam.com shows nothing there, so either Ferrycam's Bremerton cam is broken (I know the Bainbridge side works, just watched the Tacoma leave), or they're loading from the dock just to the south of there.
It was fun getting out there this summer, my father or I had never seen, let alone heard of, the Jumbo MkII class ships, and my father, who has always prided himself having a good memory of such things, could not figure out what we were seeing during one trip up the eastern Puget Sound shore. We stopped at Edmonds to stretch, and watch the trains, divers, and ferries. It was great to watch my dad puzzle over the big box-like ferry (Puyallup) that we saw when we got there, he'd mutter about it being a Yakima (Super class) or maybe another Spokanne (Jumbo Class, sister to Walla Walla). Finally I learned about the Jumbo MkIIs during a later trip (the seagull and chowder one), when I saw the Fleet Guide posted just outside the bathroom on the Tacoma.
The WSF ferries are my Sea Bitsh, they're far away, and highly idealized. I have to admire them from afar, which keeps me from seeing the blemishes (like dock rammings, engine problems and slow speed) that a commuter in the Seattle area would have to put up with. If I ever move back there, I think I'd rather move to the mainland (preferably back to our old house in Magnolia, the one we owned, on 27th, with a view of all Elliot Bay and Downtown Seattle, however I shudder to think what we coulda sold that place for if we'd have hung around for 5-6 years, and what it's going for now, if it's there at all). My memories of them are pretty faded, and most of them come from pictures in albums most of the time I had no clue that one ferry was any different from another ferry, and my parent's merely told me that we were going to some place called Mukilteo, or Bremerton, I had no clue where we were going.
Hehe, I ate at that Ivars once, my uncle came in from out of town and we thought we'd show him the Seattle waterfront and get some food. I proudly pointed out every single Waterfront Trolley that passed, often mulitple times. We made the mistake of eating outdoors, and spent the meal shooing seagulls off and dodging various bits of food scraps and birdshit that fell from the birds. I decided to mimik a guy just up the way from us, and chucked one of my fried shrimp into the bay, needless to say, while the restaurant did nothing, my mother had plenty to say to me, and that was our last trip to that particular restaurant while we lived there.
Til next time,
Keep Clam
They're almost as big as Volkswagens!!
Hmmm ... they must be on the same diet as NYCT's Track Rabbits :)
--Mark
Phil, you'd be surprised at how many trucks DO have automatic transmissions nowadays....including the big 18-wheelers that travel cross-country, and even out here on the west coast with the mountainous regions. Automatic trannies have gotten a lot more reliable for heavy vehicles....and emissions canbe controlled more closely using automatic transmissions. I have driven a lot of full-size buses with automatics, and they do NOT have a "Park" position, just the forwards, reverse, and neutral settings.
My point is....perhaps the driver of this ill-fated rig accidentally released the park brake -- and if the unit WAS an automatic, nothing but the brake was holding the truck.
Not sure if the ferry was leaving or approaching the dock when this happened...but as the truck rolled off the back of the ferry, my assumption is that the ferries leave the dock with a minimum of power (so as not to disrupt the dock/pilings, etc.) and then when they get a little ways out, full power is applied. This is how it is done with the larger boats up in Washington State, as the boats are very powerful and were causing damage to the docks by leaving under full power.
The ferry was approaching the dock, not departing.
Oh well, that blows MY theory!!!
A few years back, the LIRR had a massive summer project to redo all
the switches around Harold tower. The purpose was to speed trains
through this congested area. However, every westbound train still
slows to about 5mph as the traverse the switches. They don't speed
up til well past the Sunnyside yard. I think the project was a
complete waste of money.
There are slow orders around sunnyside because of the east side access construction project a trainman told me last Friday.
Who was Harold, anyway?
Harold was an Avenue, known as 39th Street since the early 20th century.
Mark
Harold is the name of the tower operator who works all of the switches in sunnyside yard. He's so famous, they've even named his tower "Harold", too...
I guess Monte Hall works in Jamaica, as well as his sidekick from Let's Make a Deal, Jay!
And Brooke Shields works at Flatbush Avenue (her name was obviously misspelled on the sign...)
No Shrubbery either (and this is NOT a political post). :)
It's my middle name so they named the tower after a railfan.
Thats my first name so I got you beat there, although I asked my coworkers to call me Harry instead. By chance do you remember the posters they put up on the subway cars preceeding the trackwork they did in and around Harold Interlocking? It proclaimed Harold will disrupt service this summer. It was also the year the TA hired me. Service was disrupted that summer.
>> There are slow orders around sunnyside because of the east side access construction project a trainman told me last Friday. <<
They want to make sure we see those little signs marking the spots where I presume the tunnels will emerge into the yard maybe ten years from now.
You need to get your facts straight:
-The project was done in 1990, twelve years ago.
-The principal purpose was to allow complete reverse signalling on all four tracks between Jamaica and the East River tunnels. If a track is down a train can switch to any of the four tracks - in past it was only two in, two out, with no flexibility.
-There has been an increase in train movements through the area in the last twelve years among all three rail operators there.
So if it was a hoax, think of the alternative if the work were not done!
Harold interlocking was not rebuilt. The LIRR main line tracks were replaced. I don't know which westbound trains you ride but mine usually runs from Woodside through to the portal at 40 to 60 MPH.
>> I don't know which westbound trains you ride but mine usually runs from Woodside through to the portal at 40 to 60 MPH. <<
Sometimes, though, I think westbound trains slow or even stop waiting for a slot in the tunnels to open.
Sorry but this information is needs to be corrected:
Harold Interlocking was rebuilt in 1990 to allow complete flexibility in train movements between the four tunnels and the four main line tracks to the east. That is, any of the four tracks from Harold to Jamaica can be used in either direction. Harold allows universal movement between any track and any one of the four tunnels.
In 1997 and 1998 the four main line tracks were completely replaced using new concrete ties from Harold to a point just west of Jamaica.
Sorry, Andy but the original poster said, "A few years back, the LIRR had a massive summer project to redo all the switches around Harold tower.". That was 12 years ago and out here in Suffolk County that constitutes more than a few years ago.
You're 100% right and I said that in my first posting (responding to the original poster) on this topic. 1990 is more than a few years ago. The 1990 Harold rebuilding and the 1997-98 new track and concrete tie work were two completely separate projects.
The project replaced all the fast acting A-5 penumatic switches w/ crappy ass GRS model 5's. It also replaced the classic bay windowed brick tower with a boxy modern sham. The re-engineering had nothing to do w/ increased speeds through the interlocking.
This has been happening almost every night.
Has there been a crack down on T/O's not calling in red signals they are sitting at or something.
Southbound R in the 11th St cut hits a home ball (forgot the number) for the GD1 track to G1 (R to N/W merge) and starts off a comedy play on the radio.
R: "Continential 1734 R to Control"
Control "Go ahead 1734 R"
R: "Continential 1734 R at (forget signal #) at Danger"
Ctrl: "Control to Queensboro Master Tower, Come in Queensboro"
QMT: "Queensboro"
Ctrl "You ahve a Roemeo sitting at (signal) at danager"
QMT: "Control, there are trains ahead"
Ctrl: "1734 R, there are trains ahead, have you C/R annuonce the dealay"...
On and on, I mean can't the T/O call Queensboro or does the call have to be routed through Control?
Does a T/O have to right away notify control if they are sitting behind a homeball at danger?
Lou,
Similar situation with a buddy of mine on the Harlem Division
of MN on what he calls "Kiddie Cars", the MUs. He's Hudson
Division Genesis qualified.
The bottom line after numerous call ins to control, "we know
you are out there". This was Souhbound to GCT appx. 1745.
Also, if you're operating at Seashore and want to do station
to station on frequency one, have to ask "Dispatch" to use
frequency, even to ask other station to switch over to frequency
two. Why even at Seashore, you must clear with "Dispatch" to
MNO...over the radio.
;-) Sparky
First off, you DO mean "he arrived at home ball X???" , not "hits a homeball", right? They are two very different things.
Knowing how much everyone loves to correct things here, I just looked in both the rulebook and the bulletins. Rule 40(m) requires T/Os to call Control on the radio when they are sitting behind a red automatic signal. However, I could find nothing that requires one to call Control when sitting behind a red over red home signal. Since home signals are tower controlled, it would make sense to call the tower first (which is what I do) and save Control for when the tower doesn't respond.
Most T/Os call the tower first, but that can lead to some embarrasment when they can't remember which tower in controls the homeballs in question. Like the guy calling desperately for the tower at 42nd/Broadway, BMT. (of course, City Hall was quiet -- when they could have stepped in)
I think the trick, say if you didn't know who had control of 11th St cut (tough to judge), would be to call control.
Which tower controls where is one of the first things I learned. Almost as fast, I also learned which towers will not answer on the radio (Murphy and 59 Master spring to mind). If a call to them doesn't result in a line-up coming in within 45 seconds (and I can't see a train ahead), Control hears about it, usually like "Control, this is the XXXX Bravo 34 St. I'm being held behind Home Signal X??? by 59 Master." The line-up appears like magic. 8-)
I would think knowing which tower controls every signal you encounter on a run would be mandatory knowledge before qualifying on a particular route. Since the TA seems to love putting up silly "THINK" signage at every point a T/O actually has to use his brain, you'd think the next thing would be to mark every manually controlled signal with the particular tower which controls it.
I don't suppose blowing four would be productive in the master
tower era.
No one hears your screams. :)
Happens all the time @ 34/6, though.
...in the middle of the night - hmm...
Please take out your rule book and look again, especially at Rule 40(h). After stopping at a red home signal the T/O must use the Route Request Telephone or Route Request Button near the signal to notify the TW/O. "If there is no Route Request Telephone or Route Request Button and if the signal stays at STOP, the Train Operator must immediately call the Command Center Desk Superintendent by radio. . . ."
Since this rule was revised/reissued after all trains and/or crews were equipped with radios, your guess is as good as mine as to why calling the TW/O on the radio is not among the first options (except for the fact that not all towers have radios).
I stand corrected. Someday, we'll get a rulebook that is actually capable of staying in one piece. The page with 40(h) was out of place.
Has that rule been ammended to correct the out-of-fashion "command
center" to "control"?
Not only is the radio not mentioned, but more and more request
devices are being installed, such as route request telephones
and "ready to proceed" button boxes. The route request intercom
boxes are ADA-compliant in that they have Braille lettering!
Let's not forget the thread aboot the T/O with a red and white cane...
That was my point about call ing the tower, everyone is hearing the transmition but the tower stays quite until asked then the info is repeated through control to the train that heard it the first time.
I thought I was on a Navy ship, Captian:"Ahead Full" "ODD Aye, Ahead full, Con Ahead Full on both" Con "Ahead ful Both Aye Aye, Asnwering Ahead full both" ODD "Aye, Answered Ahead full".. and so on and so on..
As they say, "My Bad" nobody hit a signal. I think it is a homeball since it was reported with an "X" but I didn't remember (this is a 46 without railfan window).
Kinda like when I went on a curise on a sub when the Navy wanted me to join out of high school. I was told never to say "close" as in "close the door". Close can sound like blow over the bitch box and if a diving officer heard BLOW we would start a ride to the surface. I should have said "Shut the hatch".
You in a submarine?? Bang OW!
Yup, the navy was trying to get me to join, I got a small curise on a training sub (Spearfish? don't remember her name), an overnighter on USS Yorktown and a full tour (not your regular in port public tour) of USS New Jersey.
My height was above the allow sea duty postings, I would not be able to serve on a ship they said even if they posted me to an electrican's mate post to do maintenance on radio antena. >G<
That overnighter on the Yorktown with me tryin to squeeze into a rack was when I gave up on joining the Navy but then they invited me to the New Jersey... how to go see that old ship before I said no >G<.
"On and on, I mean can't the T/O call Queensboro or does the call have to be routed through Control? "
I beleive that the proper procedure is to contact Control first. Then if there is no response the T/O can call Queensboro.
"Does a T/O have to right away notify control if they are sitting behind a homeball at danger? "
Not right away but after sitting there for a reasonable period (no more than a few minutes) with no information coming over the radio, the T/O is supposed to initate the contact to find out what is causing the delay.
Of course you will get some T/O who are in a "rush" to get to the terminal (this could be their last run of the day) so any red signal is going to get them nervous.
Personally, if there are going to be backups in the area controlled by Queensboro Plaza then QBP should be contacting Control to let them know and Control will do a broadcast over the radio to all the trains and gap stations affected. This is done on the Lexington Avenue line all the time (either by Control or the Grand Central Tower).
If a emergancey brake cord is pulled in the last car of the train, will the train still be charged or show preasure on the T/O's gauge?
I heard a T/O call in saying she assumed that the last car had a cord pulled because of the above and was sending the C/R to check it out. I didn't hear the outcome of it though (left the system when Control ordered all N/R's to stop and stay).
A train operator can tell where on a train a pulled cord is by charging the train up after it has went BIE. By seeing where the needle for the straight air stops on the air gauge, he can tell if the pulled cord is near his position in the front of the train or if it is towards the back.
If the train does not charge up at all, then the cause of the BIE was not a pulled cord, and the T/O is required to decend to the roadbed to check between each car to see what tripped the train.
It's like blowing through a long narrow straw. The straw (the
brake pipe [NOT the straight air pipe!]) is open on the far
end. Because of the constriction, some pressure will build
up at the near end of the straw. The longer the straw, the
more pressure.
When the brake valve is placed in the full service position,
feed valve air is admitted to the brake pipe through a restricted
orifice. The conductor's valve, trip cock and other sources of
BIE vent the brake pipe through a considerably larger opening.
So, the brake valve can not deliver enough air to fully charge
up the brake pipe and release the brakes. However, when the
source of BIE stays open (pulled cord, trip cock stuck open,
ruptured brake pipe) and you try to charge up, you can get a rough
idea of how far back the open is by how much brake pipe pressure
is obtained.
The train operator was likely paying attention in school car. It's not a hard and fast rule but;
If the train goes into emergeny due to a pulled cord (CEV) or a brake pipe rupture - after the penalty time - if you put the brake handle into the full service position, the train will attempt to recharge. The brakepipe pressure will rise approximately 7 - 10 PSI for each car length the rupture is from the head car. If the train charges to about 60 PSI, the rupture or pulled cord would be somewhere near the 6th car. This is not a hard and fast rule but a fair indicator that you should be checking somewhere around mid-train...
Notice TD said good indicator. Some crews will walk right past a loud blast of air becasue they are stuck on that rule of thumb. Also as the C/R sometimes is in a #2 end the T/O has to talk to their partner as they may have no idea of the brake pressure.
Well, singles and married pairs have gauges....R142s gauge only measures system brake pipe and floor below truck brake cylinder. Sometimes, especially when an air compressor continually runs, it is impossible to find small and medium sized leaks. On real trains, FRA allows a 3 PSI leak per minute. On the old Redbirds, worn hoses and couplings are replaced during inspection. What we are finding now is that the automatic drains of the D4 air compressors are leaking from worm O-ring seals. Sometimes you really need 'quiet' to find the leak...like 'quiet' I make in my car when everyone leaves. No HVAC, no air compressor, no convertor, no blowers, no P.A., no radios, no nothing. Lunch in my car is not anti-social...it's like being in Church. Every little groan of pneumatic piping and chassis strain talks of problems. Machinery talks. CI Peter
Boy, that day in the Arnine has gotten you some religion, son. :)
This morning, I exited the Flatbush Avenue terminal of the LIRR and was met by a huge mob of people waiting for the uptown 2/3 at the adjoining Atlantic Avenue platform. I'm talking a solid column of bodies from the platform edge to the walls. I immediately knew that something was wrong on the line and sure enough, an announcement was made that due to an "incident" and "smoke condition" at Clark Street, there was no uptown service on the 2/3.
Here's the problem: The same announcement advised passengers seeking to go uptown to switch to the 4/5 on the express platform. Hundreds of people began grumbling and headed for the stairs. This caused a huge logjam of people trying to get up the stairs to the 4/5 trains, not to mention a huge delay in trying to get on the trains themselves.
Why wasn't an announcement made that downtown Manhattan bound passengers could also easily switch to the nearby BMT lines? The M serves many of the same areas of downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District as do the 2/3/4/5. As soon as I heard the announcement about the 2/3, I made a beeline to the M. It came quickly and I even got a seat!
I really felt sorry for all of those poor Wall Street shmoes trying to shoehorn themselves onto the 4/5 when they could have much more comfortably gotten to work on the M.
Why wasn't this announcement made? The announcement about the 2/3 was made at least three times as I was heading to the M and not once was the BMT option announced.
There is a tendency for many (not all) TA employees who make such announcemnents (especially if they are the Gap dispatchers) to think 1 dimensionally, that is the division they work for (in this case A division or IRT). The idea that there are other routes in the other divisions that people can take does not even pop into their mind (unless someone tells them).
It also goes to prove what I have been saying all along: Aside from us (railfans) most people who ride the subway on a regular basis have no idea as to an alternate route should their regular route become unavailable. I have always tried to push people that I deal with (especially those in the Strappies board and also where I work) to learn at least one other way to get to their destination.
I will admit that it is kind of good for my ego when I don't even wait for the announcements to end before heading to one of my alternate routes and everyone else is just standing there with blank looks on their faces.
I would put a good part of the blame on the TA but some of it must be borne by the sheep - I mean daily rider.
Also in most cases Employees in the A Div IRT don't hear about what happens in the B Div and the other way around. Like this weekend for an Example this guy wanted Atlantic Ave he asked me the question at 59 St. I told him his best route is to take the R,W train to Pacific St. then he told me there was no service because of a BIE at 57 St. So then I had to tell him take this train to Brooklyn Bridge and wait for the #4 Shuttle to Brooklyn.
In Stations it is even "worse". We dso not get in booth announcements for problems on other than our line. I work on the 1 line. I might get 2 and 3 annoucements in addition to the 1 line, but unless I have a wotking scanner I would not know about problems on the East side or in Queens. As far as B division- even if I had a working scanner, mpost only have their own Division.
I carry my own scanner and I have A and B division programmed as well as Amtrak, NJT, SIRT.PATH. If I hear a problem with a system or a customer asks me about a delay I'll listen to that frequeucy and post any info or if in the booth I'll post on the board.
My supevisor is a good one and trusts me. Right now the booth does not have a working scanner and a new one is ordered. I'll request I be allowed to add B division.
In my travels in the subway, I have added frequencies to the booth scanner. At least there will be the frequencies for Divisions A, B1 and B2 and the local TA Police division. If the scanner has priority, I set it on whatever division my trains are on.
When I am working underground, in Manhattan, I rarely will hear about what is going on elsewhere. Unless the Train Master makes an announcement over the scanner that a train is having problems, I am not going to know about it. Simple as that. If I start getting people coming to the booth with block tickets, I'll know something happened at the station a few blocks away where their trains are on another division that I can't pick up on the scanner.
i think its unfair that its a possibility that Subway fares are going up. i mean not only is it unfair to commuters, but i work for the MTA Metro North Railroad. I cant use my pass on the subway, yet alot of NYCT bus and train operators try to board Metro North trains. Everynight i see at least one Motorman or Bus Operator asking a Conductor for a ride, and sure enuf they get it! why cant MTA just make a universal pass! i say if u work for MTA, u should be able to ride ALL divisions. MTA NYCT, LONG ISLAND RAILROAD, LONG ISLAND BUS, AND METRO NORTH RAILROAD. oh well, i guess i'll be paying 4 bucks a day to go to work :(
MN and LIRR are collected at the whim of the conductor...
Subway and Bus fares are collected by a machine.
Machines obey the rules, people make up their own as it suits them.
A conductor could get in trouble if MTA sends in a ringer and tries to get a bye.
Elias
As far as Stations Go. It is true we have some discretion but then too we laos have beakies around and if I were to lewt someone in and a beakie were in hiding I';d be in trouble. Of course, if there is a supervisor in the booth already I'd ask the supervisor who would suually isntruct me to let them in.
I too favor a true unviersal pass-- Allow use of SIRT, LIRR, Metro North, Private Line local service (including Bee Line). And yes- allow them to use the above with their true universal pass. I even suggest adding NJT, SEPTA and PATH (yes allow them in and when the person swipes or shows the pass (NJT, PATH)then the "home" system would settle with the "guest" system on a monthly basis. Yes- I know the "guest" system woudl have to track users ny boarding and exit location.)
The fare increase is NECESSARY. The price of everything goes up on account of inflation, the subway fare must go up too.
Maybe you would prefer to pay 10¢ to go to work each day, but would you also rather get paid 30¢ an hour for your work?
Lately in the news, they said the MTA came up with plans for this subject. Here's the choices the MTA has come up with.
1)Leave the fare at $1.50 but lots of service cuts [Basically it would lead to 1995 all over again but in '95, there were loads of cuts AND a fare hike].
2)Raise the fare to $1.75 with modest service cuts
3)Raise the fare to &2.00 with few or no service cuts[RIGHT!]
4)Leave everything the way it is[That's my choice]
I think it isn't necessary to raise fares, however if we had no choice, I'd go with #2. The point is the state steals some of the revenues about $325M a year, projects often run overbudget, the cost for subway cars [especially BOMBADIER's shitty cars that breakdown frewuently and the comany started falling apart after making the R62A's] went through the roof and the execs in the MTA make way too much while providing little for passengers.
I don't know if you understand the situation (no insult intended), but option 4 cannot physically occur...governors have four year terms, so election day handouts can only cover up so much. The MTA received a handout to limp through until after the elections. There is no money to continue operations this way. NONE.
What is being covered up here is very important. It's called the MTA FAREBOX RECOVERY RATIO. The current average fare is $1.06 on a $1.50 base fare. Yes, considering the MetroCard deals, I believe that this number is accurate. We can always check at www.ntdprogram.com, where we can divide the agency's revenues by total unlinked trips and see what we get. This represents a fare DECREASE since the last hike because the fare was $1.50 with ZERO deals and no systemwide bus to subway transfer (only to the Bx55 and Q4, Q5, Q42, Q83, Q84, Q85). I find it hard to believe that our fare decreased by almost 33%. A $2 fare would effectively get us back almost to the 1995 base fare in terms of actual money that we pay. If these numbers are cooked, send me the info.
Another revelation: the deficit is $1.1 billion, not $663 million. Silly me, thinking that the real figures would be floating around before the election. In 1999 and 2000, Carl McCall specifically stated that a fare hike should be implemented because the MTA needed to raise revenues to pay off their revenue bonds or risk their capital program, which had a $3+ billion hole TO START WITH. He said the fare should go up 25 to 50 cents...wait, that's $1.75 to $2.00...in EARLY 2000! Did anyone say anything about changing the formula THEN? Of course not, because we were too busy watching the sexy New Flyers and R-142s and MCI D4500s waltz in amid happy cheers from everyone. We danced to the music, it's time to pay the piper.
Here's the next revelation: Off-peak service cuts don't save very much money. How many buses sit in the garage during off-peak hours. The subway and railroad yards are filled with rail cars during off-peak hours. That's not where the money is being spent! It's the peak hour service that costs big bucks...why are so many transit agencies eager to hire PART-TIME LABOR? Well, splits cost big bucks. So do $350,000 motorcoaches that make 20 trips per week. Notice that the $2 fare will cover NYCT's contribution to the deficit with no government aid...any other proposal requires higher property and school taxes for SelkirkTMO, and a massive property tax hike in NYC that will make commuting from Trenton cheaper than living in the city (Bloomberg's big fear about his property tax hike is that the residents who can afford it will skip town...hence, the commuter tax). Therefore, a $1.75 transit fare will see RUSH HOUR service reductions, such as fewer subway trains on the L, G, and M lines because these are politically weak service areas. We will see express bus service reductions of up to 20% because that could raise the load factor on the existing buses from 35-40 passengers a bus to around 50 per bus, meaning systemwide standees between 6:30 and 8 on Staten Island, a borough that needs its express buses as much as the other boroughs need subways.
Here's another revelation: It's a possibility that the union may strike. Something tells me that Bloomberg will let them walk...after all, if Queens residents were willing to pay $1.50 plus a subway fare to get to work because of a localized bus strike, just imagine the outcry when all of the workers walk off the job. Then the news media will grab the most irate people they can find and stick them in front of the camera. It's all a big game: Local 100 gets the majority of their requests met, but they have to allow Regional Bus to go through (you think that the restructuring just meant all blue and white buses instead of two different paint schemes?). All of these plans are being made, assuming that the transit fare is $2.
Yes, it's a long post, but let's summarize my PREDICTIONS:
1) The fare is going up to $2...there is no way the fare will be anything less than that. There IS no other option. However, the railroad burden will be slightly less than proposed (they use their state senators more effectively...it's just the way it is).
2) The Straphangers' Campaign and all other genuine fare hike dissenters (don't believe the hype from Pataki...he doesn't want to have the fare hike on his hands, so he'll pass it to Bloomberg; likewise, the TWU's fare hike stance is RUBBISH) will be silenced by a massive shutdown of transit services due to a strike. This strike will be settled by December 30 so that the transit system is operational for First Night festivities. The general public will realize that they'll just have to fork over $2 because they cannot live without the transit system.
3) TWU Local 100 will receive a new contract to their liking in exchange for Regional Bus. Regional Bus elements will start to appear in the bus system in September 2003, with the integration of the franchise bus companies during 1st quarter 2004. The X23 and X24 will not enter the system before August 2004.
4) Railroad fares will go up about five percentage points less than planned in order to appease their riders and to thank them for putting up with higher transit fares.
OK, fire away.
I have heard on the radio that the MTA is talking about a fare increase to $2.00 from the current $1.50 fare. They said if they only increase it to $1.75 they would have to cut service. I realize that increasing the fare isn't going to be something they are going to want to do Cutting service I feel is a not a very smart thing to do since for a fair number of people, public transportation is their only means of getting around the five boroughs. One note to public officials, keep public transit affordable and provide plenty if it.
#3 West End Jeff
You are just hearing about this Jeff?
This has been the topic of discussion here, there and everywhere for a number of weeks now.
I guess news travels slowly to your neck of the woods or did the hamster powering the radio finally get a 2nd wind? (Just kidding).
I realize that it the possible fare increase has been a topic of discussion for a few weeks on the message board. However, it is the first time I heard of any serious mention of a fare increase on the news. Now that the word has certainly gotten around, straphangers aren't very happy now and though I'm not a regular on the subways, I'm not happy about it either. For all I care, they can take their fare increase and stuff it.
#3 West End Jeff
All you saw in the media was rehashing of old news. There was really nothing new mentioned. That is why nothing was posted here.
"All you saw in the media was rehashing of old news."
Actually, this is the first time the MTA put down some specific alternatives.
- $1.50 and massive service cuts
- $1.75 and some service cuts
- $2.00 and no service cuts
Subtalk postings have been less specific, mostly recognizing that some combination of cuts and a fare raise are inevitable.
There are two obvious new topics for discussion.
- Do we believe the MTAs alternatives are the truth?
- If so, which do we prefer?
$2.00 and no service cuts. The cost of riding should really go up by small amounts yearly as costs rise in the business instead of waiting many years and socking it to people all at once. At $2.00, it's still a bargain.
The usage levels are too high to cut service and still expect to carry the same number of passengers adequately. The IRT East Side cannot handle any new riders, for example!
--Mark
- Do we believe the MTAs alternatives are the truth?
The didn't mention $2.00, some service cuts, and slashes to planned capital improvements, beginning with Second Avenue.
- If so, which do we prefer?
I'll take the $2.00, as long as the subway is covering its costs and they say so (they didn't say so last time).
Raising the subway fare to $2.00 and to cut service in addition would be a raw deal. They also shouldn't not put off building the 2nd Ave. subway any longer since it is badly needed. If they maintain the same level of service the $2.00 fare won't be quite as hard to swallow. We shall see what we shall see. Stay Tuned.
#3 West End Jeff
Raising the subway fare to $2.00 and to cut service in addition would be a raw deal. They also shouldn't not put off building the 2nd Ave. subway any longer since it is badly needed. If they maintain the same level of service the $2.00 fare won't be quite as hard to swallow.
I agree with that. However isn't it sad that we have to have to pay more for the same services, and not get any new ones. Raising the fare and loosing services is extremely hard to swallow.
I heard on the news this morning that perhaps the MTA is exaggerating their budget deficit according to a straphanger's group. Maybe they're making up the fact that they're going to have a $663 million budget gap. Who knows? We'll stay tuned.
#3 West End Jeff
>> - If so, which do we prefer? <<
I would get more annoyed at having to wait longer for a bus or subway train-- or maybe even lose service on a route altogether-- than at paying $2 for a ride. If that's what it takes to maintain current service levels, I'm for it. As it is, service isn't really up to snuff in some areas of my experience. Waiting for the N4 in Jamaica, for example, really gets annoying. It's often late and way overcrowded. I'm sure others can relate similar tales of subways and buses on other routes and lines.
This timely news (I say sarcastically) is on the front page of today's New York Sun. There is also another article, which I haven't read yet, stating something about how privatizing the system would be beneficial. I find that funny because one private bus line is folding soon, and Giuliani and Bloomberg have been trying to take over the other private bus companies as well.
I think a better plan would be the following:
-Eliminiate the 15$ metrocard discount.
-Raise the single ride MetroCard fare to 1.75
-Possibly raise the single token fare to 1.75 as well or only sell $1.50 tokens in multiples (like SETPA).
-Raise unlimited pass rates 12-25%
-Offer more varied pass types like the Straphangers want.
-Possibly eliminate some or all free transfers and charge some sort of transfer fee like 25 or 50 cents.
"-Possibly eliminate some or all free transfers and charge some sort of transfer fee like 25 or 50 cents.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
Mike,
It is a good thing you are in Jersey. NYers would not appreciate such a statement. Whne they gave free transfers they basically commited themselves for life. They can't go back and start charging.
Not to mention that the capital and ongoing costs of instituting a charge for transfers would eat up the revenue.
>> Not to mention that the capital and ongoing costs of instituting a charge for transfers would eat up the revenue. <<
All that would have to be done would be to reprogram the computers. I'm sure that such a thing would involve some one-time expenses, but surely not enough to "eat up the revenue," and surely no "ongoing costs."
It is not that easy. You'd have to install turnstiles in transfer passagways and pau for maintainers to maintain the turnstiles. If you want HEETS- I can see the lines now-- 51 and Lex will seem empty!
If we do not have a booth there you'd need a cop to watch for transfer fare beaters. No- NYC needs their transfers. Even in Philly there are free tansfers between Broad Street Line and Market Frankford. MARTA has free rail transfers between lines and the free bus to rail.
I don't think he meant free transfers between subway lines just the bus-to-bus and subway-bus (bus-subway) transfers.
"All that would have to be done would be to reprogram the computers."
I was thinking of subway to subway transfers, but that's probably not what he meant.
Possibly raise the single token fare to 1.75 as well or only sell $1.50 tokens in multiples (like SETPA).
Why would they need to sell tokens in multiples? That's what the METROCARD is for.
If the fare goes up, say bye-bye to the now useless token.
The token will always be needed. Let's say (and it has happened) all turnstiles wont take cards--there are tokens or the Non Revenue Farebox(The black box near the turnstiles)or even hand collect(Wherfe they return the token to the booth or to a cop with a revenue bag or pail near the turnstiles.
I spoke to my superintendent to ask for instructions for future reference and was told he'd gheht back to me. The next day he told me he checked with AFC and I was isntructed the policy is to ask them to buy a token.
We now board our time machine to NYCT future-- all turnstiles are out of order. How will they enter?
Sure- maybe they can do away with routine tokens but what about turnstiles not accepting cards (not the fault of the S/A). I can see miscreants jamming the turnstiles to allow free entry if tokens are abolished. A compromise would be to retain a supply of "emergency tokens" which could be used only if all turnstiles are out of order.They would only be valid on subway and no bus transfer or bus.
I'd also agree with allowing use of stockpiled tokens (with the S/A sending in all tokens pulled from the wheels) and not selling tokens except for emergency.
The token will always be needed. Let's say (and it has happened) all turnstiles wont take cards
In that event the fare should be free, like on a bus.
There is no reason why tokens should be retained for the rare mechanical failure. A person should not lose their transfer or have to pay when they have an unlimited because of mechanical failure.
I can see miscreants jamming the turnstiles to allow free entry if tokens are abolished.
In what way, the cards are not sucked away? Are miscreants going to go around with cards covered with grease to dirty up all of the card readers (which can be cleaned anyway) or will they be taking sledgehammers to the turnstiles?
I can not say hwo they jam the card swipoe unit to avoid tellng others how it is done but they do jam the card swipe units. They do it so skillfully we cant tell they did it. A jammed card reader wont cause our computer to beep like it wouid for token jams.
>>> The token will always be needed <<<
In addition to the uses you mentioned, the token remains the simplest way for a business to provide a customer transportation. For instance, a PI attorney who wants to send a client to a particular doctor, or as it is most often seen here, a social service agency sending a client to a job interview, medical treatment, or to a food bank.
Tom
In addition to the uses you mentioned, the token remains the simplest way for a business to provide a customer transportation.
That is no longer true. That function has been effectively replaced by pre-wrapped $3 Metrocards.
You see, no matter how much you try to justify its miserable existence, the token is as utterly useless as a fireman on a diesel locomotive.
B"H
Whilst entering the system at Madison and 42nd (the Westernmost shuttle/GCT entrance), I found something rather dismaying... Normally, there is either one or a pair of gentlemen (a term I use loosely) who we call 'swipers' around here. These same guys are there EVERY single day. It's odd that they don't get busted.
At any rate, these guys were not there yesterday afternoon, but something even worse was. I entered the fare control area and what should I see on the floor? A great big turd. And this was no animal turd, it was most definitely human waste. It was right in the middle of the floor! Here's the kicker, it wasn't there at 9am...so, sometime during the busy day, someone pulled down their trousers (in the middle of a usually busy entrance) and did their business!!! How disgusting! What could bring a person to do such a thing...I guess he/she really needed to go, bad.
Needless to say, this is not the first time i've seen this in this entryway. I saw the same thing last week, but outside of fare control. It's also on the site filthy mess ... check the transit section.
I suppose this is just a complaint/kvetch/heads-up. Watch where you step out there!
Not only loads, but "eskimo pies" lurking out there too. One time I stepped off a n/b "M" train at Chambers and almost stepped right into somebody's lunch! BLECCCCCCCHHHHHH!
wayne
Eeewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
You gotta wonder if a homeless person did that. I'd have to think others would just hurry and find a toilet, but I could be wrong. -Nick
welcome to NYC. :o)
"These same guys are there EVERY single day. It's odd that they don't get busted."
Believe it or not, they do get busted on occasion. However with the fine they have to pay, it is just an expense to them. Spend $20 to get 5 funpasses, they just move elsewhere and start all overagain. Sometimes they know they won't get busted or they have "lookouts" and they can spend a good part of their day there.
"What could bring a person to do such a thing?"
The person who did it had to do it and knows no one is going to stop them from doing it.
B"H
Some days i'll go to hit the HEETs there and one or both of them will seem to be malfunctioning...as in, it'll take several swipes with a card to get in. Some folks give in and pay the dude his blood money. I was wondering if there is something that these geniuses do to screw up the card reader, like put a magnet or something near the reader? Anyone know?
If you're friendly with a station agent somewhere, you can ask for a cleaning card and give the HEET a wipe. They frequently get dirty from use and prevent people from entering. Funny how your card won't work. But theirs will?
Other than that, you can notify an agent at the nearby main booth that someone is selling swipes at a HEET. Probably not the best way to handle it. But outside of a prank call to 911 or happening to see a cop shortly afterwards, there isn't much you can do.
B"H
Yeah, it is strange how their cards seem to work all the time...do they put some kind of gunk in there? what's in/on the cleaning card? can an average joe get or make one?
Right...and there's no booth even remotely near that entrance...its a solid city block to the nearest booth.
Swipers know how to use them and most customers simply don't.
It isn't so much gunk that is put in there by swipers. I wouldn't put it past them to do so. It is also the "stuff" that comes off a card when it's used. Both the residue from the magnetic strip and the "stuff" that was in the person's pocket with their metrocard. Also subway air is fairly dirty to begin with so that finds its way into the HEET.
Cleaning cards are made of thin cardboard (I can't think exactly what) soaked in alcohol. A few swipes thru the slot should clean the heads enough to allow cards to work. Something like head cleaners for a tape deck.
Hi Everyone,
I am doing a huge research report about transit authority. What really intrigues me is the leadership behind the system. I am trying to understand what departments make up the subway system, how those particular departments are divided and who are the people that head those departments and their branches. I realize this is a very tough question but if anyone has any suggestions as how to go about figuring this out or if anyone has that information already I would love to hear from you. Any help is highly appreciated. I am on a deadline so I need help ASAP. THANKS :)
Best thing to do is contact the: Metropolitan Transportation Authority at 347 Madison Avenue, NY NY 10017 (the phone number should be in the telephone directory).
They can provide more information than anyone here could (and given the current situation, more than anyone here probably would).
thanks allan :)
Well, start at the MTA web site itself. There you will find a link on the MTA's leadership.
Then go to the financial report in the investor's section. You should find additional details there. All the divisions of the MTA should be seperately listed, with some synopsis of management.
After that, THEN you can write to the MTA and ack them "intelligent" questions.
--Mark
thanks mark, but i have already gone that route and i couldn’t find information that was specific enough to what i am looking for. i am only interested in the leadership division in regards to subways. MTA is a very large entity and i am choosing to focus on the subway system and its departments. any further suggestions?
thanks, selma
Suggestion #3: Try to obtain a copy of their telephone directory. You're going to be amazied at all the people listed in there.
does anyone perhaps has the most recent/updated Transit Authority telephone directory or organizational chart?? i am highly interested! thanks for the suggestions thus far :)
Dear SubTalkers,
We've just put both Mens and "Juniors" new tee shirt and sweatshirt
designs up on our website. These may be our best ones yet! You get
to pick your "locale" (not "local" guys, be nice!)
We have "Brooklyn," "Bronx," "Queens," "Harlem," and just "New York City" so far. Look closely and you might even see your favorite train symbol!
I look forward to your feedback. We think they're cool!
http://nycsubwayline.com
I peaked at your sight, when I received the personal notification.
If possible, can the bullets in the individual swoshes be enlarged,
so we can see what lines are in each. Be it Brooklyn, Bronx, Harlem,
New York City or Queens. Or is it the same in all? If so what are
the bullets?
Thank you,
;-) Sparky
Agreed. I looked very carefully and I could not make out the lines you chose for each location.
--Mark
LINKED
--Brian
No Manhattan!? That is just sad, even though I don't live in that borough. :-)
Where's Harlem???
To most non-NYC residents, New York City is Manhattan.
They don't know from Bruuklin, da Bronx or Queens.
;-) Sparky
Manhattan is represented by the New York City T-shirt.
I see... I wish it wasn't thta way, though. It cuts the other 4 boroughs out of it. I wish tourists weren't that dense!!
Hey Grrl!
Guess what! I saw one of your T-shirts on someone today. Here in Bangkok!!!
Keep up the shamless posts, Christmas is coming.
Dear Thurston,
Not to mention Hanukah! Seriously, does this bother you guys?
If it's a problem, I won't do it. I honestly want you guys to be the
first to know about new subway products, since you seem to think (ahem!) quite often in the day about our subways.
Lynne
Not a problem to me - I appreciate the early notice.
Just bought the umbrella with the routes on it (is that one of yours too? :)
--Mark
Not mine, but aren't they cool?!
Yeah, it's really bright and cheery!
--Mark
I don't think so, you can't get much more transit related. One of my friends wore his to a trolley museum Annual Meeting. The trolley guys made him sit in the back .... just kidding.
Lynne,
Guess who was wearing one of his (G) shirts to Branford this
past Saturday. I also wear the (G) insignias on my uniform
when on duty. More so we're waiting to see our Trustee Elect
emblazon his conductors hat with a Correct Badge, not a TA
bus operators badge!?!?!
As for the advance notices, sure do appreciate them. If you
can withstand our rhetoric. But give Dave some support, for
without him, we wouldn't be here.
As for the swoosh, I'll wait for the second edition, hopefully
it was a short run. I associate the swoosh emblem with Brooklyn
and the Dodgers. So as we bums would say, "Wait Till Next Year".
;-) Sparky
or as the L.A. Dodgers say "Next year in Califronia"
[... More so we're waiting to see our Trustee Elect emblazon his conductors hat with a Correct Badge, not a TA bus operators badge ...]
I did ware a New Haven Ravens hat that day just for the locals ;-)
BTW, that badge comes off easy because at The Point the local Sparky there insists that I ware their badge :-(
>>>"BTW, that badge comes off easy because at The Point the local Sparky there insists that I ware their badge :-("<<<
Well, how about Branford? Or you could care less? Tell US!!!
;-) Sparky
The hat badge is part of the tour story, i.e. every once in a while someone notices that the "operator" badge is a TA Bus badge. To which I reply, exactly that's because I actually work for a bus company.
I do have a Branford pin on that hat along with one from Pan Am, QSC, and The Point. So, I think I have all bases covered ... and have fun doing it. A-N-D I ware my Branford jacket badge at both museums ... The Point doesn't have name badges. That Sparky doesn't seem to mind that badge, but he doen't like my whistle. Each place is a little different, so you have to remember where you are, especially the bell & signal systems (you know something about that). I go there to operate the PCC & their two open cars.
>>>"The hat badge is part of the tour story, i.e. every once in a while someone notices that the "operator" badge is a TA Bus badge. To which I reply, exactly that's because I actually work for a bus company."<<<
What does working for a bus company have to do with a Trolley Museum
at which you are a "Trustee Elect". Many visitors inquire as to
your association with "Trolleys", then you can explain you work for
a bus company.
______________________________________________________________________
>>>"I do have a Branford pin on that hat along with one from Pan Am, QSC, and The Point."<<<
What in the devil does Pan Am have to do with "Trolleys"?
At the museums, at which I operate, I have the PROPER hat badge
for that museum. "Branford Electric Railway" for Connecticut and
"Seashore Electric Railway" for Maine. All my hats carry pins for
other mueums of which I hold membership, if available. And now all
my hats will be adorned with the (G) bullet.
______________________________________________________________________
>>>"That Sparky doesn't seem to mind that badge, but he doen't like my whistle"<<<
Bull Sheet, I do mind what hat badge you wear, I'm very adamant to
all about the correct badge that is readily available. When operating at Shoreline Trolley Museum, your at BERA not the TA.
This "whistle" story, evades me at the moment, I'll inspect the
"whistle" on Saturday.
______________________________________________________________________
>>>"I ware my Branford jacket badge at both museums ... The Point doesn't have name badges."<<<
As for name badges, the current ones for Shore Line are fairly new
additions, less than ten years. I still have some older, get it
if you want versions. The best though, now on my safety vest,
that turns heads is "Surface Car Operations".
At Seashore, all operator/members are requested to wear a name badge,
which is titled also colored coded to qualifications.
;-) Sparky
It's a hobby, I have fun while entertaining the guests.
There's also PRIDE of showing the organization your representing,
not being a wanna be of something else. IMO
;-) Sparky
John, you'd go ape over some of the operators at IRM. A few years ago the operating department decided that it would be a good idea to change the dress code. Since then, black pants of any sort (this includes black jeans), a white IRM polo shirt (you read that right), and a black IRM baseball cap (you read that right too) are de rigeur for anyone who wants to run cars but doesn't want to be seen as being serious about historical interpretation (obviously, I'm a little opinionated on this point!). It looks completely ridiculous - more like a golf outing than a train crew.
It's not all bad. A lot of the more involved operators still wear overalls and a Kromer (for interurbans) or dress pants, white shirt, tie and conductor-type cap (for streetcars), and some even wear actual uniforms that they got from CTA or some other source. One of our crewmembers who sometimes serves as conductor on the bi-levels wears his old C&NW dark-green conductor's uniform! It varies.
Frank Hicks
>> wears his old C&NW dark-green conductor's uniform! It varies.
Reminds me of JJ and his All Grey LIRR uniform.
>>>"All Grey LIRR uniform"<<<
Jamaica, all change.
;-) Sparky
>>>C&NW dark-green conductor's uniform!<<<
>>>>>Grey LIRR uniform<<<<<
Before retirement and relocating to Israel, Dave Kleeper wore
a North Shore Uniform at Branford.
Also our interface and geographical location, current NYCTA type
uniforms are acceptable, as long as the current logos are removed.
;-) Sparky
Hey! I'm an authentic Station Agent. Asking me to remove my logos is like...Well asking me to remove a part of my body. You're a bad influence, Sir. I know, I know. I represent BERA and not TA. But I look most appropriate when operating the R-17!!! Actually, the "M" Logo would be more fitting, if I could find a shirt.
-Stef
I prefer the TA logo myself...:)
I'll give up my left nut, before I give up the TA logo. I bleed TA, it runs through my veins. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, the sounds of a crazed S/A.
-Stef
Stef, CHILL :-) Sparky
I thought your 'otherhalf' got your 'nads awhile ago...LOL!
Man, it sure sounds like we'll have to hose you down with cold water...;)
oops, nuthe "TA" wannabe chimes in. Coulda...Shoulda...Woulda...
;-) Sparky
Heh. I'd side with Dougie there too. Then again, the TA logo IS appropriate for RT, which is where you'd find me. :)
To some extent the management wants us to look like trolley operators from the turn of the century, most don't.
But we do need to look professional, i.e. dark suit, operator type hat, some kind of name tag to ID one's self, AND we need to carry some safety gear: watch, radio, flashlight, whistle, rule book, etc.
I just take some liberty with the hat badge.
Thurston, every time I have visited Branford you ARE the consumate professional.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for that !
I kid some of the younger "trolley guys" to run & take a picture of this subway kind of guy doing trolley duty. They aren't easily impressed < G >
Not to worry, if I ever go for da monkey zoot, I'm already the turn of the century look even butt nekkid. When our little village of Voorheesville celebrated its Centennial as a railroad town, all men in the community were required to go for the facial hair and that "look." Those who didn't go along got taxed. :)
Gotta see if Lee still makes those choochoo Charlie striped overalls and fetch me an oil can. Heh.
>>>"I just take some liberty with the hat badge."<<< WISA GUY!!!
;-) Sparky
Know who was it that saw a bus company badge at Double A and thought it would look good on my uniform ? Too bad the bus is the wrong color :-(
Well at least the "Bus Badge" you were enticed to acquire was from
the "Bus Company" whom puts the bread 'n butter on your household
table. "QSB", is acceptable but, I still detest "TA". >gosh darm it<
:( Sparky
We at BSM must be the leader in "the company look" at an operating museum. Every operating member's cap (blue, bell crown) has a badge that has "Baltimore Streetcar Museum, Inc." and the person's membership number on it. They also wear a name tag that features the Museum's logo, the BSM name and the person's name. The name tags are also worn by non uniformed members working in the Museum Store.
BSM is who we are, and we're proud of it.
Does BSM still encourage facial hair (mustaches, long sideburns) that was in vogue during the streetcar's hetday?
Not really, it's up to the indivdual. I have worn a Handlebar Moustache since shortly after our Opening Day (July 2, 1970). It's part of my personalty today.
My upper lip hasn't seen a razor since February of 1973, when I was still in high school. I'd feel naked without my mustache.:)
Geesh, what a thread ... maybe I'll become a lurker for a while ;-)
go to www.flyingpig.co.kr
And, It's so ON TOPIC that the site causes both IE and Netscape to crash!!!!!
Quite an interesting concept - don't think it would ever survive here, but it's nice to look at. Imagine riding in the "underwater" car when you're going under the East River...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went to the site and this is what I got.....
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please try the following:
If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
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Last I head, November 24 was the scheduled opening day for this new line extending east from the commecial area of Yonge and Sheppard in Toronto. Does anyone know if the opening will happen as scheduled? Will any subtalkers be on hand to ride it on opening day?
I'm always glad to hear of new lines opening, but for me the down side is that I can no longer say I've ridden all of Toronto's system! :)
Mark
I was in Totonto last week and didn't see any notices for it, but the TTC is still promoting it as Nov 24th, as per their website.
BTW, if you are thinking of heading north, the AMT in Montreal is building a new station west of Dorion that could spell doom for the one-train-daily beyond Dorion to Rigaud. If you're a "mileage collector", ride it QUICKLY, they still use open-window coaches on jointed rail.
Also CN is buying the Ontario Northland, so the "Northlander" from Totonto to Cochrane is also potentially on the endangered list.
Lots o' stuff happening.
Yes it is indeed opening on November 24, with the first trip from either end at 9:00am. I'm going to be taking the first train out of Don Mills station that day (my father and I are going to drive up from Ottawa). Anywone else going to be there?
I'm going to be there sometime on Sunday, probably in the early afternoon. I'd be there for the first train, except I work until 2:00 in the morning.
-Robert King
So I pick up the last MTH 2002 catolog and the first one for 2003 and start skimming the page as I sit in the porcilin library.
Bingo, I spy the MTH Maintainence of Way work car R/17 for a nickle below fifty bucks. I keep skimming. I see the add-on R/32s. I'm still waiting for my full set of '32s.
I keep skimming, WOWWEE, I see two versions of the R/12s. One version is all white. I hate it. I hated the full size White cars, they made me think back to yesteryear when garbage trucks where white.
The other set of R/12s had the original two tone grey scheme. A better choice IMHO.
Now if MTH could only put out a MOW R/12.
Two of these yellow and black MOW cars and the money train rides on into the sunset after some body swaping with the R/21s.
avid
I'd rather an R15 with the black/yellow stripe and maroon livery.
And NYC garbage trucks are still white.
wayne
Wayne,
Thanks for the refresher on the color of the NYC Garbage trucks.
Only working in the city, I kind of put them out of my mind. They where once a pale yellow and before that a battle ship grey.
I like your idea for the R/15.
avid
I agree that the white cars are ugly (and one of the MTA's dumbest ideas ever)--however--I'm getting a set so that I can intermix them with blu-stripe R-17's--I may be painting grafitti on a few cars, too--so I'll have an authentic-looking mixed consist.
I'm also getting a set of the two-tone grey R-12's---I figure that at some point, we'll probalbly see an R-15, or a re-issue of the R-17's or R-21's in another paint scheme, so I ccould combine these cars with future offerings.
If you paint those R12's red and bang a consist of four, you've got some "Let's tear down the third avenue el in the Bronx" action going there. The R12's replaced the LoV's after the TA announced "byebye" ...
For the absence of an r21-22 option, I'd take the 17.
I think the R-12 is more interesting, but I'd take the R-17. I have fond memories of them when the made up most of the #4 fleet. Boy those were the days.
Wayne
On second thought, the whities do make a blank canvas to allow one to be creative!
I still think a pair of the yellow/black r/17s will make an excellant money train.
avid
I like the R12's I remember them from the West Side IRT, and their appreance on the final days of the Third Ave El, I like the the different Strap hangers. The R/17's ran mostly on The Woodlawn Line and were in awful shape from the 70's right up until they were replaced by the R-62's.
My favorite one on the 4 was 6512. The MG set sounded like a rocket when the controller notched up, the air comressor sounded more like an R10/14 rather than the faster 2CYs on R17-22, and all of the doors moved at different speeds so the panel sensor switches bouncing behind the seats were successive. That car always had a door or two cut out.
6688 had a door leaf cut out last month. Speaking of doors, did anyone notice the lever controls on the BMT lightweights? Can't remember if they were on the Bluebirds or multis, but Subway Cars of the BMT has a photo of a door control console on one of those cars, and lo and behold they're the same levers found on the R-15s through the R-22s.
6688 had a door disconnected? With CI Peter and *moi* about? Say it ain't so? Nothing I love more than ripping panels out and removing that pesky newspaper from the mechanisms ... dang! I coulda been a CI contendah ... squirt, squirt, drag, yank ...
You mean you didn't notice? I stepped out of the cab after opening up and noticed it right away. It was the door leaf right next to the cab facing Avenue L.
Next time you're going to have to make one of those zany announcements you used to do. I didn't try out 6688's PA system.
Shows you how much Bronx boys notice IRT cars. :)
There are mechanical problems with 6688's doors. One door has never functioned in all the time that I've been there. It believe it needs a new door motor. Gotta search the parts car for one.
There is another pair that functions, but hangs a bit (takes longer to close). Those need to be readjusted.
-Stef
I hear the door engines on the dolly motors are available for the picking. Don't adjust the engine speeds. Thats what makes them R17s.
I'll have to see if a certain Branford member can get one. The hanging door is a minor problem.
-Stef
Get SPARES! :)
Monkey grease and cleaning the door track ought to take care of the stickies. I'm HOPING that we'll be able to hire soon so's I can find some time to get up there and replace some rollers on 1689's storm doors, as well as squirt some green stuff up in the door tracks there as well ...
Hey Kev, are you thinking of becoming 1689's guru?:)
I certainly wouldn't want to step on any toes, but I don't want to see her go to rust either. Big problem is coming up with the time AND money to be able to, but yeah, I'd adopt her if no one else would, that's one NICE car and very well taken care of back when it really mattered. I'd like to see her keep on going ...
If I were still back east, I'd adopt it in a heartbeat. It's still my favorite car in Shoreline's entire collection.
Brother,
Dolly hasn't been the same without you. Dolly, who liked to operate solo, was put on the shelf and replaced with married couples (Redbirds). Edna and Gertrude got married to Tom and Dick, who grew old and wise. They are continuing this endless saga. Pulling the little yellow car that could. Choo-Choo! I think I can and I think I can....
-Stef
The R-10s had the fastest doors of all.
Sorry to mention Jesus' name in the title, but it was a necessary part of my inspiration to whip this out ... right now, as I type "Talkback Live on CNN" has that EXACT question as their "topic for today." Sheesh. Of course, in the journalistic glow of CNN, it's a tossup between an SUV and a HumVee ... yeesh.
So, since back in my day we had Father Cosgrove and he frequently "drove" Arnines and R10's and had a particular passion for the IRT having run HiV's, LoV's and rotbirds as a "guest" motorman (and he was better than most of us even if he didn't do schoolcar), I suppose this stupidity that CNN's into today might as well roll over here.
Once again, sheesh ...
The holy r-10.
NO ! .......a low V ...........lol
Actually, the most likely answer to your question is a camel.
C'mon, didn't you see Dogma? "Back in the day we used to walk everywhere."
Everybody, surrender your car! Turn in your MetroCards! We're making all the bridges pedestrian only, everybody can walk to work now! Jesus Would!
Hehe
He needed a bridge?
Actually, the most likely answer to your question is a camel.
Is that also the most likely answer to this question?
Well, for those of us who aren't convinced he was who he claimed to be, it's as good an answer as any.
This whole thread reminds me of a very well-done Ray Stevens song, though, entitled Would Jesus Wear a Rolex (on his Television Show)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
More likely what Jesus would've smoked...besides a Cohiba (nothing but da best ;)
The CNN story in question is here: 'Jesus,' government eye SUVs. My own feeling is that Jesus would be hanging on to a strap on the subway. I don't know about everyone else, but I think there is a moral aspect to transit use. I use it when I can to minimize the negative impact of fossil-fuel use on my fellow human beings. When I have to drive, I drive an effiecient car. I'm glad someone is talking about this.
Mark
Yeah, CNN followed up in the next hour with good old Jerry Falwell bashing the qwap out of the minister from the movement. "Jesus WANTS us to drive SUV's and I'm going out and buying a brand new Explorer" said Jerry. Ralph Reed (official spokesfish now for the regime in power) also believes that Jesus would drive a Hummer. Really makes you wonder.
Amazing that Jesus takes a humbug like Jerry Falwell into his confidence. I prefer to believe if God had intended us to drive SUVs, then He wouldn't have given us streetcars.
Amen and Amen ... we've gone straight to hell alright, all we got was this smelly old bus. :)
Some of us don't know the roadway to hell....I think I need an almighty Hagstrom to find da way....:)
Nah, no map required ... all CDTA bus drivers know the route, goes through TROY ... but if you're still lost, here's a "RealAudio" taste of the bus route:
http://www.artistdirect.com/cgi-bin/ramstream?file=~bb-475124/0116936_0101_00_0002.ra
I have this terrible fear of that place called Hell. If you guys don't mind I will just take your word for it and pass up the chance of visiting there. I want to go to another place.
True ... right now, hell is the Sea Beach. Moo. :)
I would imagine He would have been a conductor on a BU, opening the gates, overseeing the guards and guiding the flock.
As to the article, I am amazed at the need for people to demonize an inanimate object. I assume a segment of the population hopes we can neutralize Osama bin Laden, so we can go after the more important enemy--SUVs. Maybe BEFORE Osama bin Laden, to listen to some.
People should know that the Hummer and the Range Rover are not your common SUVs. If they are in your neighborhood, it's not one I or 99.9% of the people on SubTalk could live in.
The most popular SUV is our family car, the Ford Explorer--and frankly, it's too small when compared to the vehicle it replaces, the old station wagon.
It only seems large because it's higher than the old cars, more like the way cars were during the '40s, before the desire for longer, lower, sleeker created cars that rode a few inches off the pavement and helped enrich many a chiropractor.
The higher seating position gives a better view of the road, contributing to my safety and that of others on the road.
My Explorer is a 4x4, but I don't use it to climb mountains, I use it for the safety it affords during heavy rain and snow, especially now that so many more roads are unsalted and even unplowed.
The cargo area is good for family shopping, but it's nothing like the old days, when Consumer Reports' standard for a station wagon was the ability to carry a 4x8 piece of paneling, flat. Even with the rear seat down, I don't believe you even have 4x6 clear.
And the seating. Several years ago the government was forced to admit that air bags were decapitating children, and media like the Times were piously telling us that, if we were good parents, we should put our child in the rear seat, in the middle of the rear seat. Well, excuuuuuussssse me! Some of us have more than one child, and even if we have only one child, we often have to ferry our children and their friends. Remember old shows like Donna Reed (and other antiquities you can see if you get TVLand on cable)? People used to stuff a dozen kids in a station wagon, the front seat, bcak seat and cargo area, with maybe a couple more balancing on the roof.
Now my Explorer can carry exactly three children, period! Three kids belted in the back seat. We can't put a kid in the front seat for fear of a close encounter with the air bag. It's illegal to put kids in the cargo area--no belts.
A study recently said that one of the prime reasons that people buy the larger and even more gas-guzzling Expedition, is not to run over chipmunks in the woods, support welathy shieks or eat Saturns, but so they can get a third bench seat, so they don't have to leave half their family home when they go somewhere.
Won't get an argument out of me on any of that, I live out where the trains and buses don't go (and don't you eat that yellow snow) and there's no alternative to a land tank. Fortunately for us and the environment, no kids so we run a Saturn. However most everyone else around here has peecup trux that would put any "Monster truck" to shame ... many of them require an elevator or extension ladder to get in and out of. :)
However most everyone else around here has peecup trux that would put any "Monster truck" to shame ... many of them require an elevator or extension ladder to get in and out of. :)
And that's another thing--SUVs promote physical fitness!
I would imagine He would have been a conductor on a BU, opening the gates, overseeing the guards and guiding the flock.
Do you think that people would listen when Jesus would say "Watch your step getting off"
I would imagine He would have been a conductor on a BU, opening the gates, overseeing the guards and guiding the flock.
Do you think that people would listen when Jesus would say "Watch your step getting off"
Gives an entire new meaning to "Soul Train."
What about the "Soul Mass Transit System?"
My family owns an SUV for a different reason. Previous cars rode pretty rough on potholed streets, and he Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited we own is really built for that sort of thing. The jeeps perform much better than regular cars. Plus, that extra cargo space is really handy when you need to haul construction materials.
As for fuel economy, the Jeep is equipped with a computer that keeps track of, among other things, both instant and average miles per gallon (average can be reset). Recently, we average about 14 mpg. The most humorous thing to do on road trips is to watch the instant mpg while traversing hills. Going downhill, you can get as much as over 50 miles to the gallon! Now that's good stuff (albeit deceiving).
Large SUV's are fun when you have the money to put stuff in them (translation-you're rich). That includes a monster stereo system, DVD player and even computer internet hookups. The best addition yet? Rapper DMX added a train horn to his SUV. LOL!
My family has three cars, a '96 Dodge Grand Caravan, an '01 Escape, and my '91 Civic sedan. I have no idea what grounds you have for your assertion that the SUV is best, since our minivan will do all that, it drives much better, is roomier, and is just generally a much more comfortable car. My mother and I drove out to Chicago to look at colleges and attend an aunt's 50th birthday party in our Escape. It was horrible, the gas mileage sucked, the car rides like crap, and there was no room to move about. We have driven the van, with all four of my family between Chicago and Denver (the orginal reason to buy it), and it was great, the ride is smooth, it drives well, and has much more cargo room than the Escape could ever dream of.
Then there's my honda, 122,000 and still ticking, very well for that matter, something that I'm sure the Escape will have trouble with at a similar age. The car is originally from California, my dad's commuter car when we moved down there and found that transit in the LA suburbs wasn't what it had been 10 miles from downtown Seattle. Since then it's carried us between LA and Southwestern colorado, then later we took it on another vacation from Chicago to Washington DC, all four of us, packed into that car, the only problem being a Spark Plug cap that came loose somewhere in Ohio and denied us a cylinder for the better part of a day. Today, it's trunk may leak, it may be growing rust as a delayed reaction from it's encounter with chicago's salt-mania, and it may have heating and cooling problems, but really, of all the cars we have, it is far and away my favorite. A 5-speed manual, I get great power exactly when I want it, I almost never have to fill the tank (admittedly it only goes 10 miles or so a day), and when I do it's almost always under 20 bucks. Plus it's a 91, the bastard child of the Civic family, there's lots of pre-'90 civics, and even more post 91 civics, but the 90-91 family are a kind of rare breed, caught between the carbureted 80s and the computer-heavy 92 and up models Theres only one other car somewhere around me that looks like mine, and maybe 2 others of different colors.
Then there's my honda, 122,000 and still ticking, very well for that matter, something that I'm sure the Escape will have trouble with at a similar age.
My Ford Explorer is a '93,has 126000, and still ticking also, quite strongly. I use it quite often.
But I know what you mean. Sadly the Japaneese cars seem to last longer than the American cars. Honda does have a good rep for being fairly problem free.
My mother and I drove out to Chicago to look at colleges and attend an aunt's 50th birthday party in our Escape. It was horrible, the gas mileage sucked, the car rides like crap, and there was no room to move about. We have driven the van, with all four of my family between Chicago and Denver (the orginal reason to buy it), and it was great, the ride is smooth, it drives well, and has much more cargo room than the Escape could ever dream of.
An Escape is not an SUV. It is a poorly designed, tall car.
Then there's my honda, 122,000 and still ticking, very well for that matter, something that I'm sure the Escape will have trouble with at a similar age.
Yeah, that's why I just got my mom to lease a 2002 Civic LX. Three year lease so it will be in warranty the whole time (I'm sure nothing will go wrong anyhow) and it get's good gas milage. Plus it's a pretty good car. This is my family's first foreign car.
... our minivan ... drives much better, is roomier, and is just generally a much more comfortable car.
Agreed. I have a '96 Windstar which now has 137K on it... repairs (other than routine maintenance like oil changes, tires, and brakes) to date have totalled less than $700. (And my tire mileage has been excellent - the original Michelins went 113K and could probably have gone another 10K, but winter in New Jersey is no time to be driving with worn tires. Needless to say, I put another set of Michelins on it.) My wife took a nearly 7000 mile trip in it this fall (New Jersey to Arizona and return, via our North Carolina home and then I-40 west, with a side trip to California and Nevada, returning to New Jersey via the southern route across Texas and the Alabama Gulf Coast and North Carolina) without any problems. It gets 24+ mpg on the highway, 19 around town, and rides as nicely as the '00 Taurus my younger daughter drives.
But I think that your Escape will still be doing very well when it gets up to that mileage, as long as you care for it properly. They are a very reliably engineered vehicle, just not a particularly practical or comfortable one. I've driven more than one Ford well past 200K with little more than routine maintenance... just keep the oil changed regularly and keep an eye on things and they'll run practically forever. The highest mileage one in my active family fleet right now only has 161K on it, but I plan on driving that one at least another 100K before I rebuild it and drive it some more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But I think that your Escape will still be doing very well when it gets up to that mileage, as long as you care for it properly.
Small "mini" SUV's do not really compare to 'regular mid-sized' SUV's.
In terms of comfort that's absolutely true - they're even worse. From a reliability standpoint, all the Escape's power train components are found elsewhere in Ford's line, so they are very reliably engineered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A study recently said that one of the prime reasons that people buy the larger and even more gas-guzzling Expedition, is not to run over chipmunks in the woods, support welathy shieks or eat Saturns, but so they can get a third bench seat, so they don't have to leave half their family home when they go somewhere.
A minivan would serve that purpose too. Even so, I'm not going to apologize for owning an SUV. Mine is a fairly small model, an Isuzu Rodeo, and its mileage isn't much worse than an ordinary sedan. What's the big deal?
I think Jesus has better things to do than wonder what train fleet to drive. But If I was jesus, I would choose tghe R-9.
I'm sure Jesus DOES have better things to do. However, it's STILL CNN's everywhere story today so maybe Jesus is wrong. :)
1938 Tube Stock.
wayne
Yeah! Now THERE's a ride, sounds like an Arnine too. :)
Do you know that there are some of these beauties still kicking on the Isle of Wight line? I got to visit one in the Ryde-St Johns barn, all painted up like an R33 (LUL red livery). On the way out to Shanklin, this beast got WAY up to maybe 55 MPH. It sounded just like the Queens Boulevard R-6s, complete with glorious groaning from the Bull gears. Absolute perfection.
wayne
The two car types were REMARKABLY similar in design. No surprise and I have every belief that ours went just as fast when they were permitted. Of course, no speedos to confirm but then again, today's speedos are known for recording high speeds on the subways while stopped at a station. :)
A friend in Nottingham sent me a recording of them and I couldn't tell the difference at all.
You're right about that. The cars I rode on the District Line in 1978 made the same bull and pinion gear sounds as the R-1/9s. I also heard that harmonious gear sound more than once. Positively heavenly. They didn't go "tch-sssss", but then you can't have everything.:)
Those District Line cars were mixed Q stock, dating from 1923 through 1934, with various manufacturers. I can dig out the specifics if you wish.
wayne
Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing "1926" in a few doorwells on those cars.
Those cars also had a bell which went "Dink" just before power was applied. Montreal's original Metro stock did that, too.
How about 1233 or 1277? Perhaps He might have even cured poor Ralph on 9-11-73.
> Perhaps He might have even cured poor Ralph on 9-11-73.
That is of course assuming that Jesus was God, which I do not assume at all.
- Lyle Goldman
That is of course assuming that Jesus was God, which I do not assume at all.
That is of course assuming that there is a god, which I do not assume at all.
HUH?
I _knew_ you'd spot it ... howdy and g'evening to ya ... pick up the story here:
http://www.whatwouldjesusdrive.org/
CNN spent the entire day ridiculing it on their shows from the (ahem) "news" to Squawkback Jive to Backfire ... their server's been swamped with all the ridicule and lookenspeepers, so be patient. I can't believe CNN would do what they did, but at least it ain't their OTHER major story about "Wacko Jacko" dangling the baby ... sheesh.
man....I'm good...and their servers down.Must not want me to read it!!!!!lol
Go to CNN then ... they've got it plastered all over the place. Yeah, tried going to the site just a while ago after posting and it's so overloaded that it isn't responding. Bookmark it, try in the middle of the night or tomorrow after the buzz wears down. The phenom of it not being there is called "being slash-dotted" where publicity causes an overload SO severe that nothing can go in or out. Same phenomena as "denial of service attacks" by nasty people ... but they're there, they have a reasonably valid message but I dunno about how they went about doing it. Make your own judgements though when you've SEEN what they say. In the meantime, CNN's slapped them upside the head quite a bit. And Falwell, the gasbag, is probably the reason why they're swamped.
oh...uhh...okay.I KNOW it's gonna piss me off then... so I'll wait it out.
Jesus was supposedly a carpenter and would appreciate the mechanical connection between man and machine in the Arnine. Besides, how could you have Schul in the R142 when the seating is so uncomfortable and the HVAC is so loud?? Early morning Sunday Communion in the Episcopal Church is one hour in duration: opening prayers, convocations, the lessons, the Gospel, a Sermon (22 minutes or less,) Nicene Creed, Prayers of the People, Holy Communion and final prayers.
Jesus would get a G2 for leaving anything on the FibreGlas seating of an R142. CI Peter
Well then ... just wait until we do the wooden gate cars next year. Much more appropriate. And Reverend Dougie in the cab. :)
He would drive whatever cars run on the Sea Beach. He just told me so.
Considering Jesus has been dead for almost 2,000 years, I doubt he really told you anything!
- Lyle Goldman
Whats the matter, you don't believe anyone can talk to the Lord? Well, I look up and thank him every morning and kiss his statue that I have in my room. However, you are right. Jesus has too many other things to worry about to give me a private audience. I did think the post was a little silly so I added a little silliness of my own to it. The truth is, we shouldn't get into any religious conversations. I can do the political ones, but religion is another matter indeed. Remember that one faith currently is thinking that the rest of us are all infidels and want us dead----at least a segment of that faith. We are on very dangerous ground when we get into matters of faith.
You're being incredibly offensive to alot of people.
Who cares if you don't believe in Jesus? Why do you not allow others to do so?
What makes your religion better than all the others?
Because it is the symbol of happiness, Jesus would be T/Oing the BMT Bluebird, or -- if he got assigned to the A Divsion -- an R-33/36WF train with original paint scheme (hey, I was always happy going to the World's Fair in the IRT's 'Bluebird' cars, especially the super-expresses from Grand Central...)
Why worry if Jesus would drive an R9 or R142? The Church are a bunch hipocrits as it is already so the first thing Jesus is gonna do when he comes back is torch the Vatican.Then maybe he'll drive an R142.
.....lmao!...sorry couldn't resist saying that torch the Vatican part.
I heard it in a movie before and it just crack's me up.
Jesus has been dead for almost 2,000 years; he's not ever coming back.
- Lyle Goldman
I accept your opinion even if I disagree with it. But Lyle, there might be some people out there who make take umbridge at your post. The very essence of Christianity is that HE will return some day. It is best to drop this right now. Have a good day.
Friday's Philadelphia Inquirer
What a cool cartoon!
Bravo! And the correct answer (where available) ...
Hmm... Keep in mind that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a humble donkey. Today, I'd imagine him riding the Flushing line with all the social misfits that John Rocker (and many other conservative rednecks) hate so much. And I daresay that Jerry Falwell would be the first person he'd chase out of the temple.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Turning Trent Lott into a pillar of salt would be a good opening act. Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
Ahh, we can dream, can't we?
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmm... Keep in mind that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a humble donkey. Today, I'd imagine him riding the Flushing line with all the social misfits that John Rocker (and many other conservative rednecks) hate so much. And I daresay that Jerry Falwell would be the first person he'd chase out of the temple.
You know, this has got to be one of the most bizarre threads we have had here!
(This is not a response to your post directly, but just a general response, because it just happened to a random one I clicked on because I haven't really been reading through the whole thread over the last few days, just a random one here and there. Your's just brought a smirk to my face - just imagine just randomly clicking on what it says above, without a clue what else has been said in the thread)!
The Swoosh Style shirts:
The New York City Style:
Subway Logos- #2,#A,#E,#F,#4,#N,#7,#L,#J,#G
The Bronx Style:
Subway Logos - #1,#2,#9,#4,#5,#6,#D,#B
The Brooklyn Style:
Subway Logos - #A,#F,#2,#4,#5,#Q,#W,#L,#Z
The Harlem Style:
Subway Logos - #A,#2,#3,#B,#D,#6,#4,#5
The Queens Style:
Subway Logos - #7,#G,#F,#V,#E,#N,#R
Hope this helps...
Lynne Lambert
Sea Beach Fred and BMTman ...
Do NOT LOOK AT THIS POST!
OK - now that I have your attention :) .... I am afraid that the Sea Beach Line and the Franklin Avenue Shuttle were slighted in the Brooklyn representation ....
The Brooklyn Style:
Subway Logos - #A,#F,#2,#4,#5,#Q,#W,#L,#Z
Just thought I'd point this out to you as a, er, public service :)
I'll buy it anyway :)
--Mark
Sparky's looked at the post and he's hilarious.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE (G) IN BROOKLYN, WHERE IT SERVES 24/7?
Current service beyond Court Square is part time.
Even when it does operate the full line, there's equivalence
in the number of stations, 15 in each borough.
The TA shafted us by deleting QB service.
The (G) is a Brooklyn Line. Queens gets the (V), (N) & the (G).
As we bums would say at Ebbets Field, "we was robbed".
:-( Sparky
Dodger fans also said, "Wait 'till next year!" a lot.:)
this is going to be an echo, but me Polski blood is boiling and
missed changing the Subject the first time.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE (G) IN BROOKLYN, WHERE IT SERVES 24/7?
Current service beyond Court Square is part time.
Even when it does operate the full line, there's equivalence
in the number of stations, 15 in each borough.
The TA shafted us by deleting QB service.
The (G) is a Brooklyn Line. Queens gets the (V), (N) & the (G).
As we bums would say at Ebbets Field, "we was robbed".
:-( Sparky
Sparky’s got a point ( Greenpoint that is ). I agree with him.
Paul
Why is it that I'm not surprised in the least. I just got through playing golf so I can mutter that old refrain====That's par for the course.
Brooklyn has so many trains that service it, that is was very hard to
choose which ones to show! (There is only so much room in the design)
Hope you guys like them anyway!
Subway grrl
Since my train isn't in the mix I don't have to like and I don't. You will learn my dear young lady that I am the paramount Sea Beach fanatic on this board and take any slight to my line personally. You could have gotten the powers that be to make sure the Sea Beach was represented but you didn't. That makes me very pissed off but since I like woman I will forgive you this time.
Uh, Fred ... subwaygrrl IS the "powers that be" :)
I am sure the decision was based on available room, not to slight anyone's particular line ....
... but Brighton Beach Bob must be enjoying this very much, I'm sure :)
--Mark
Typical oversight. Don't they realize that the Frankie is the 'grandfather' of all Brooklyn rapid transit right-of-ways?! Philistines!
Does anyone know if the Newark Subway will go beyond Grove Street in Bloomfield?
Nothing planned at the moment. If you look at the NJT Capital Projects page here, you can read about the proposed extensions to Broad Street (committed/funded) and to Elizabeth (wish list).
John
Ok, I am expecting this post to be somewhat of a heated issue. But please, so people can respond in a fair way (without letting emotions get the best of them), please read and make sure you understand the viewpoint, even if you then decide to disagree.
I think it would be better to raise the subway fare instead of having a commuter tax. It is true that commuters do come in and use some of the city's services. However, there are also some services like schools and money that goes to the other boroughs that commuters are not apart of. But, many commuters also use the subway. Many New York residents use the subway. Therefore, since there is a budget deficit, then lets let everyone pay for it, not just the commuters. Also, please remember that commuters bring in tax dollars everytime we eat breakfast or lunch, or make any other purchases in the city. In other words, I think commuters do bring in their share of money to the city, so the budget deficit is not just their problem..it is something everyone should have to deal with. -Nick
"I think it would be better to raise the subway fare instead of having a commuter tax."
It's not either-or.
The MTA needs to raise the fare to provide halfway decent service. The city needs massive new revenue sources to replace the income tax on the capital gains of rich people (this tax is still there, but there are no capital gains to tax).
I would rather see the fare remain the same and the city reduce taxes. That would be made possible by taking a meat-axe to Medicaid spending.
Don't tax me
Don't tax thee
Tax that fellow behind the tree
--Huey Long
Increasing the subway fare only helps the MTA close its own deficit. It doesn't really help the city close its (much larger) budget deficit, even if the fare goes up to $2.
Also, it's not as if Bloomberg is proposing putting the whole burden on commuters with the commuter tax. The 20-25% property tax hike hits only NYC residents, whether they own their home or not (since landlords will presumably raise rents to cover their increased tax bill).
David Chui wrote:
since landlords will presumably raise rents to cover their increased tax bill
...if permitted to.
Mark
Ok, thank you for that information. I guess the budget gap money needs to come from many different sources then. -Nick
from what i heard last that this is not a commuter tax. it is another type of tax that EVERYONE inside the city or outside the city has to pay. including everyone in this post thing that works. the reason why commuters are complaining about it is because it is much more than the commuter tax they were paying.
my opinion about the tax thing is i am for it. taxes are basically the only way the city will get better financially (or atleast the more reliable way) if no taxes were imposed then i don't think many will have a job later. jobs would have to be cut to make up for deficits(for those who work for gov't agencies)from what i heard about the tax, that if they avoid tax and the 2 dollar fare then there will be reduces service and ta workers will get laid off. because of fear of no jobs lost and other turmoil, i am for more taxes and a fare increase. i will take a pay decrease as long as i still have money coming in. i know many hate taxes and think we pay enough, but i think it is selfish of many (i should say everyone including myself) to complain about paying them especially in this severe time of need that the whole city is in.
For thos e of you that always wanted them, here they are:
http://home.att.net/~alabianca/timetables/schedules_intro.html
Does anyone have the A Division List
Do you have PM outbound schedules for B division?. Does anyone have A Division for PM Outbound?
Daddy's Train, made in 1945, supposedly was filmed almost entirely on the Myrtle Ave el in Brooklyn. This film is the story of a gateman on the Myrt, whose wife recently passed away, and his struggles to raise his 9 yr old daughter while holding down a job with the NYCTS. Cary Grant portrays Paul Hauser, the gateman widower. Margaret O'Brien plays his young daughter, Margie. The regular train crew working with Grant stars Lionel Barrymore as Walt O'Malley, the motorman, and Humphrey Bogart as the senior gateman, Joe Gagliano. The story line is complicated by Marlene Dietrich, who portrays the late wife's older maiden sister, Mary, who feels that Grant should marry her, so that she could help him raise Margie.
Some of the supposed highlights of the film were...
Barrymore trying to get into and out of a gatecar's motorman cab.
A cameo by James Cagney as a platform conductor at Bridge-Jay St.
Bogart singing My Little Margie to Grant's daughter.
A brief appearance by Lauren Bacall who portrays Bogart's wife.
Grant slipping on an icey car end platform, and sliding right onto the Franklin Ave station platform.
Grant, looking like an experienced gateman, performing his duties.
Grant's voice did not sound much like Brooklyn, and was apparently dubbed over by Leo Gorcey of East Side Kids fame, just before the film was released.
All of the copies, and the master of this B/W film seem to be lost due to film deterioration, and there seems to be little hope that a usable print will be found. Has anyone here ever seen this film?
Are none of the existing copies, duplication masters or masters in restorable condition? Some pretty deteriorated films can be brought back for one last run, so that they can be copied.
-Robert King
I'd LOVE to see it too if there is a copy that can be restored. One of the BIG problems with films of that era is that a lot of them were done on "Nitrite film" which is self-combustible. Many of those films went up in flames in the can as did the negatives. What didn't often bubbled and fell apart so it's quite possible that no copies survived storage. I hope one DID manage somehow ...
The era of nitrite film was all but over by the end of the second world war, so I doubt that a proper production would have made use of it in 1945; they'd use the better quality, modern films availible at the time. Also, the prints sent out to movie theatres would most likely be on safety film by that time. The other thing that commonly happens to old film stock is that it shrivels up in the cans and goes vinegary.
-Robert King
I'd be willing to bet that since it was 1945 for a release, that it was shot the year before under budgetary constraints. But I'm only guessing. It could be a hoax of course as well, but nitrite didn't disappear until the late 40's and for some studios, the early 50's.
If a copy DOES turn up somewhere though, I'd still LOVE to know about it and see it. Pyramid Films did a 10 minute short that HBO used to run many years ago called "Third Avenue El" ... there was another short by the same name that HeyPaul sent me but wasn't the same one. Forget the name of the classical tune that the one I'm thinking of went to, but there was no narration and it was mostly shot from street level - a day in the life (at night) of the Third Avenue el of the trains going back and forth on it ...
Given the hazardous nature of nitrite films, I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did. Even rough handling could set a reel of that film on fire - I certainly wouldn't want to drop a reel of it on the floor, especially if it's out of the can.
Preservation of old movies is something that Hollywood is quite well known for not being very good at. There are a lot of rumours in the movie business that Universal (?) doesn't even have a viable original print of 'The Sting'.
-Robert King
Remarkable, eh? Yeah, there were still cannisters of nitrite flaming up in the 1980's in storage that were never transferred to plastic. A *lot* of film history was lost to stupidity and Hollyweird accounting. Say what people will about Ted Turner, he saved a LOT of treasures from the fire department, even if it was solely to build his cable channels. As for the rest, if it couldn't make money in the theatres again, it was trash as far as the studios were concerned and not a tear was shed when warehouses burned. They made money collecting the insurance. :(
That sounds like the same video I picked up at the Transit Museum a few years ago. They might have a reference to the music in the credits. IIRC there's a harpsichord.
YES ... it WAS a harpsichord ... gotta ditch subtalk for 12 or more hours, Microsoft did a patch and I've gotta download it and test it to see if they fixed their "problem" before I can sleep, so might not read what ya respond with until tomorrow. But yes, that's what was the musical background throughout the short ...
It's a Handel harpsichord concerto. They were showing "Third Avenue El" at the Transit Museum at Grand Central just a few weeks ago, along with some superb models of el cars.
Is this some kind of extensive joke? The movie is not listed with IMDB, which has some pretty obscures items. Nor is anything like it mentioned in the filmographies of Bogart, Grant or Barrymore.
And Leo Gorcey voicing Grant? Sheesh!
Try finding a movie I've been looking for for YEARS, "Omicron" an old Italian science fiction movie that parodies the American lifestyle as reported back to space by an agent sent to Earth of the 1960's. It's there, channel 4 used to run it often on an afternoon movie, and channel 7 would often run it after the news in the middle of the night. FUNNY movie, no trace of it ever existing. IMDB is huge, but it's not complete.
I'd like to SEE this one ...
IMDB is huge, but it's not complete
A movie starring Grant, Bogart, Barrymore, Dietrich and Margaret O'Brien would be on IMDB ... unless ... was this filmed by SalaamAllah?
Heh. IMDB only catalogs films currently in libraries somewhere. I've caught them empty on a NUMBER of movies that I have here on tape. While I agree with your expectations that it SHOULD be there, I'm not at all surprised at the Bronx handshake if it DOES exist. :)
>>> IMDB only catalogs films currently in libraries somewhere. <<<
I think you are mistaken. If you look up the IMDb filmographies of such stars as Mary Pickford (266 films) and Fatty Arbuckle (162 films), you will see too many titles there from before 1920 to reasonably believe they all still exist.
I have to doubt the existence of "Daddy's Train" since I have never seen a reference to it anywhere, and because all of the mentioned stars were under contract to studios at that time, even if no print of picture existed, there would be mention of the film in studio records. Additionally since Bogart and Bacall were a hot item after meeting in 1944 in "To Have and Have Not," I cannot imagine how any movie one year later in which both appeared could completely disappear from all references.
Tom
Ya got me there, and while there's a number of films I really liked over the years, a movie buff I ain't. But if there *is* such a film, I'd LOVE to see it. That's all I ever said. One of the other folks here (too busy to look back to see who) found "Omicron" a film I looked for on that list last year that just wasn't there. Is now, to my extreme amazement. That's something ELSE I'd like to see again.
More power though to IMDB, last time I went looking for things I had here, there were a couple they didn't have. I notice "Magic Christian" is now on the list as well. That was ANOTHER classic, as demented as Omicron and still available.
I'd like to see "A Short Walk to Daylight" someday.
Original or revised version?
Pardon my ignorance, but what's the difference between the two?
Steve, when it first came out (1971 or so, I guess), the plotline was that an earthquake had hit New York causing the subway calamity.
In the late '70's -- Universal -- the company that made 'Short Walk to Daylight' was into 'padding' their made-for-tv movies (and features that were shown on TV). What happenned was that on late night TV if you were to catch 'Short Walk...' there was a sub-plot added showing that the disaster was the work of young radicals who had (apparently) detonated a powerful bomb (never explained in the story if it was nuclear or not).
I would assume that the studio had second thoughts about the believability of a devastating earthquake hitting New York so they inserted a more 'plausible' scenerio based on the exploits of the Weathermen Underground and other real radical groups of the 70's.
I would hope that 'A Short Walk to Daylight' would one day be released to DVD as it was a well-made TV film, even by today's hi-tech standards.
For those of you haven't seen it, the group is trapped on the Lex south of Bowling Green, and have to choose between going to South Ferry (blast from the past) or Brooklyn. How close to the actual disaster site this turned out to be!!
As an aside, if the West Side Highway had still been standing September 11, 2001 I wonder how much of it would have wound up being demolished, considering all the debris that fell on West St.
I recall that the train was a consist of R1-9 types, but it was running on the Flatbush Avenue Line, meaning of course that it was supposed to be the A Division!!!! :O Ha!
Footnote: The TA actually derailed an R-9 unit for the benefit of realism in the initial wreck scene.
There is a photo in the appendix section of the original Under the Sidewalks of New York edition taken during filming of Short Walk. The station tile is definitely IND-style; it could very well be Court St.
The caption under the picture indeed says it is Court St. The wrecked train was clean and had "City of New York" visible. Also, the destination sign was for Church Avenue!!
They've shown it on TV once or twice out here, but by the time I see the listing, it has come and gone.
Hmmm! I wonder if Salaam might have copies of this tape for sale!
Omicron certainly is on IMDB. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0191326.
Well, glory be ... wasn't there LAST time I looked. Now for the musical question ... anybody HAVE it for sale? I'd rate it an 11 ...
Yeah, Paul, me thinks our collective railfan legs are being yanked...
Do you think you'd like a Cary Grant with Leo Gorcey's voice, especially in a love scene with Marlene Dietrich?
I'm still trying to visualize Bogart singing My Little Margie to Margaret O'Brien.
I understand that there is a surviving print. It is to be shown at the Second System Film Festival to be held in the 76th Street Fulton Line station.
You DOG you ... could you pick up some tickets for Unca Selkirk? I'll pay for popcorn and all refreshments! :)
I'll pay for popcorn and all refreshments!
Extra butter? Deal! :)
I'll bring a cow and a churn! :)
And the popcorn, butter, film and all particpants will all be delivered by R-10 3333 :)
Nah, we'll head down there in BU 1227 just in case there's elevated third rail still in place down yonder. :)
No, no, no. Ram a BMT standard through the bulkhead. It may come away with a slightly bent anticlimber, but not much more.:) Moo.
A convertible! Cool!! Where are the cupholders?
--Mark
I understand that there is a surviving print. It is to be shown at the Second System Film Festival to be held in the 76th Street Fulton Line station.
Free transportation to the film festival will be provided by the Boynton Bicycle Railway.
Sounds like a late April Fool's joke to me!
Karl, did you see this movie yourself or did you hear about it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
I guess that I should not have posted the story. I realized that it was a hoax when I posted it, and assumed that all of you would realize the same thing. I followed the career of one of the stars mentioned, and knew that he could not have made such a movie.
The background of the story is that it appeared to be a final draft of a paper, apparently prepared for a college course. It was found many years ago at a used book sale, folded inside the cover of a old textbook. The writer, school, course and date of writing are unknown. The finder loaned it to an old friend of mine because he knew of his interest in NY Transit. My friend shared it with me because he knew of my love for the old gate cars. He read it to me twice over the phone, the first time for me to laugh, and the second time for me to make notes about the casting and some of the unusual scenes. I asked for a photocopy, but my friend declined, because the paper was not his property.
I thought that the whole paper was hilarious, and wish that I could have remembered more to share with all of you. I still chuckle when I think of Cary Grant appearing on the silver screen, with his voice dubbed by Leo Gorcey of all people. Can you really imagine Bogart singing to Margaret O'Brien. This unknown writer certainly had a flair for comedy.
The Lost Movie theme was my addition to tell you the story. I hope that I did not cause anyone any aggravation or frustration in looking for this obviously non existent film. The whole post was meant to give everyone a chuckle. I did enjoy reading everyone's responses and hope you all did too.
All's forgiven from this end ... but maybe we should see about getting a "go picture" and a budget to rebuild the Myrtle, and a special effects budget to resurrect the various actors from the dead and DO it. :)
You forgot to put the BU's in the budget!!! And we need to incorporate
"Railfan Pictures, LLP".
And, If we really want to do "Mission Impossible - Myrtle" thing, Bill Gates will bankroll the whole thing.
Heh. Well, being a bit selfish, was sorta hoping the budget would include a lease from Branford and all necessary parts and materials to repair ALL of the BU's up there so Dougie could get a bit part in the movie playing Groucho in the cab, serving up some chow. :)
Karl, you could have at least waited until April 1.:)
The most incredible part was that it was shot on the Myrtle Av L in the winter. After all, "The Clock" was made around the same time, and they rebuilt Penn Station as well as the express and local IRT tracks on a sound stage.
Recently, I rode the Q on a Saturday morning and I observed that it gets crowded and I think a weekend express service would be sensible. It would run on weekends [more likely Saturday only] from 7AM-7PM. What do you guys think? What other express services should be expanded and or extended in your opinions?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
A nice idea but for now, not physicaly possible. The Brighton Express tracks are used for overnight and weekend storage due to reconstruction at the Stillwell terminal. Brighton trains have no access to Coney Island Yard.
Brighton Line trains have access to Coney. At least 1 track is maintained during the Stillwell rehab.
Definitely Brighton Express service should be restored on Saturdays. Sundays, too!
The people who know such things tell me that there isn't enough riding on the Brighton Line to justify express service (I ride the line, and while the trains have standing loads, that's on a 8-minute or 10-minute headway. Double the service, or nearly double it, to provide expresses, and the trains would be pretty empty -- run expresses without increasing service, and NYCT might as well just run everything local because whatever time passengers save on the express gets more than eaten up waiting for it, and the wait for the local gets obscene!). In addition, there are General Orders on the line many weekends, which would result in a suspension of express service much of the time anyway -- why schedule something that's almost never going to run?
David
David, are there statistics on weekend ridership on the Brighton Line which would allow us to compare the period from Memorial Day through Labor Day as compared with the rest of the year? I wonder....as there are 8 minute headways through much of Saturday, couldn't there be some sort of compromise, changing headways from 8 to 10 minutes on the local while having, also, 10 minute headways on the express?
I believe there are such statistics, but I don't have them.
Going from an 8-minute local-only headway to a 10-minute local + 10-minute express headway would be going from 7.5 trains an hour to 12 trains an hour. That's a near-doubling of service, which is not warranted by ridership levels (so I'm told, and as an occasional weekend Brighton rider I'd have to agree, though I live near an express stop and would LIKE to have express service).
David
Actually, not quite that bad (7.5 vs. 12 trains per hour), as the express only goes as far as Brighton Beach. Would you happen to know if the TA planners have checked out those statistics?
The report I read, stating that weekend Brighton Line ridership was insufficient to support express service, was WRITTEN by the planners.
David
I have one question for you then I'll leave you alone on this subject. When was this report written? While I'll readily admit that the Q isn't the 1 train on weekends, it can at times on the weekends look like a rush-hour crowd.
I saw it during the month of November, 2002.
David
David, maybe my post was ambiguous when I wrote "checked out those statistics". The statistics I meant were.....Did the planners check if the Memorial Day to Labor Day period would warrant Brighton Express service? I have in front of me a copy of the statistics you posted on 16 July 02 giving the breakdown of the number of fares collected at the Brighton Line stations on Saturdays and Sundays for the year 2000. What I find surprising is that, after Church Av. and Kings Hwy., Brighton Beach had the greatest number of fares collected on the Brighton Line on weekends. I wonder if that station would rank higher during the summer and lower during the rest of the year. I believe this would be relevant to the idea I posted of having Brighton Express service on summer weekends (only). Could you get those statistics for me and post them?....Sorry if I'm being a "noodnick".
:-)
I don't have access to that information. Anyone else here who might is welcome to obtain it and post it.
David
As a very occasional weekend (Sunday) Brighton rider, my impression is that "crowded" in this context means that most seats are filled and sometimes there are a few standees.
The IRT lines in Manhattan are more crowded than that. I've mentioned that I usually have to stand on the 1, even at 8:30 on a Sunday morning.
If my impressions are accurate, I would think (and hope) that the IRT lines would receive service improvements before Brighton service is increased by 60%.
Since the loading guidelines for non-rush hours specify that trains are to be filled to 125% of seated capacity, having "a few" standees means that the trains are loaded to a point that is at or near what the guidelines say is proper. Ergo, a service increase is not warranted.
David
We are in full agreement.
I did not know that there was a fixed 125% off-peak loading guideline. My informal impression is that most lines have spare seats off-peak while other lines are loaded to 200% or more. How often are scheduling adjustments made to bring loading closer to 125%?
First off, every Brighton Train I've ever ridden on weekends between 7 am and 7 pm (sometimes even later) are very crowded from Church Ave all the way in to midtown in both directions. Secondly, did you ever hear about how: if you provide the service, they will ride? A lot of people don't ride because they don't like the idea of making all local stops. If word got around that the express was available an weekends, ridership would most likely go up.
Wasn't there a similar situation on the Fulton Street Line? How come that line went from express service *RUSH HOURS ONLY* to *7 DAY A WEEK, ALL DAY* express service! That's quite a jump, wouldn't you say?
[A lot of people don't ride because they don't like the idea of making all local stops.]
1. "A lot of people" is not a number, and thus cannot be used as a basis for randomly adding service.
2. As David noted, any time "they" save by moving past the local stops would be lost by NOT moving on the platform waiting for the express and letting for the local go by.
- - - - -
[If word got around that the express was available an (sic) weekends, ridership would most likely go up.]
Up by HOW MUCH? Enough to at least cover the cost of adding enough service to still adequately serve the local stops?
AND... How does anybody know how many people will be attacted to a weekend express? By asking them? See another thread for comments on stated behavioral intent versus actual behavior. (In plain English: They'll tell you now that they'll use it if you build it, ONLY because that's what you wanted to hear. Once it's built, they "forget" to show up.)
" How does anybody know how many people will be attacted to a weekend express? By asking them? See another thread for comments on stated behavioral intent versus actual behavior. (In plain English: They'll tell you now that they'll use it if you build it, ONLY because that's what you wanted to hear. Once it's built, they "forget" to show up.)"
You really can't compare "adding" transit service to something being "built". If something that is "built" fails, you are stuck with the "final product". If something like adding trains to an already existing line "fails", you simply discontinue that "added" service.
It didn't happen overnight. Fulton St. express service went from rush hour-only to weekday all-day in the late 80s, then all-day every day in 1999 when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed. I have to wonder if weekend express service would be one of the first casualties if service cuts were to be implemented.
I was wondering about that myself. Part of me says YES since it took waaaay to long to get it established in the first place.
The other part of me says NO due to money and politics.
Rockaway is in the beginning of a huge housing boom. Within the last four years, there have been over 400 new market-rate houses built throughout the Rockaways, with another 600 houses currently under construction and approximately another 3,000 houses in the planning stages. They are asking for anywhere between $300,000 to over $500,000 for the houses currently under construction and in the planning stages.
Nobody is going to invest that kind of money and then be subjected to the type of service that Far Rockaway had endured from since the TA took over the line from the LIRR to approximately 1999.
The city as well as politicians have a lot at stake here (financially and politcal respectively). With all that money the city plans to make over these housing deals, during a time when they are screaming "we need money", you can bet that they will do just about anything to make sure this is going to happen.
I always associated the Fulton St. having local only weekends with the Brighton, but the Fulton express comes from much further beyond the end of that portion of the line (Euclid) than on the Brighton where the exp. is shorter than (or now starts at the same place as) the local.
The Brighton local stops can be remembered by the flat/sharp keys of first 2 octaves of a full 88 keyboard. Starting with A#, it's 1-2-3-2.
Fulton is 3-1-2-3, which is only one more than the Brighton, but having a group of three at each end seems to justify the express more, plus the line beyond Euclid. (If Utica wasn't there, it would just be an even 3-3-3)
What other express services should be expanded and or extended in your opinions?
None now, but extension of "A" express service was great for me. I get off at Jay, and it meant that I get way more service than before. Weekend ridership on the "A" gets pretty heavy, even with the "C" running.
I'd say when the MB is fixed and Coney Island is restored, Brighton should have a weekend express and local service. The weekend ridership pattern is similar to the weekday pattern with passengers tending to get on or off at the express stops. I think though that the weekend headways on both the Brighton Express and Locals should be cut to 10 minutes at best.
No. Spend the money instead on increasing weekend service to lines that get real crowds.
Express service may be warraned during the summer at least.
When I work the weekends, I look to see how many people get off where, especially when it runs express one direction, as it did a few weeks ago. But since some of those people riding to the next exp. station might cross over to go back to a skipped station, it is hard to tell if exp. service is better for more riders.
The Best test was a few years ago, when major switch work on the was sent via Brighton Exp. a couple of weekends. It looked like it had a good nuber of riders, but still many could have been transferring at Stillwell for missed Sea Beach stations.
Trains coming in from Manhattan are generally crowded, but a lot of those people, at least in the front, get off at Church. The next big batch get off at Newkirk. So these people could use an express, but they're only skipping 3 stations (I grew up using Newkirk, and I always wanted express on the weekends, and still do even though I'm nowhere near the line. It seemed so much faster, as if there were a dozen local stops between there and Newkirk, but I was probably just an impatient little kid! It's far much better for getting around than what I have to go through now!)
So there aren't as many people going past there, and an express to Kings Hwy. (bypassing the longest strech with most local stops) might be very lightly ridden. Any express that does run should stop at Ave.U and Neck Rd., and continue to Stillwell (when it reopens) because there definitely won't be many just going to Brighton Beach.
It seems that there is a small weekend "rush" (A "Sat. AM rush" was always ackowledged in scheduling), peak direction AM and PM where there are more people. So what I was thinking was perhaps some specials that run one way express Kings Hwy to Prospect Park when those riders are there. That's probably the most you'll be able to get that would seem useful.
Of course, this side of the pond, we've had Brighton Expresses on Saturdays since before the first world war. Most of the trains date from about then too ;-)
An extract from the Failtrack Travel Timetable:
1. London Victoria 23.11.02 11:08 Express SC MC TS
Brighton 12:24
Duration: 1:16
And in case you're wondering:
Legend
MC First and standard class accommodation
SC South Central Trains
TS Trolley service
Tonight I was watching television, I saw a Nike commercial, in this in commercial, two young men were doing chin ups on a bar that was under a EL train. I think it might of been a R-42 rolling by, I think it might of been either a J train or possibly a M train, has any Sub Talker, seen this commercial or verify what subway line this was thanks MR.Gee
I've seen the commercial several times. Definately looks like Brooklyn.
I saw it all the way out here in Pittsburgh. I wasn't looking carefully, but it reminded me of the Bronx.
I See everyone one had fund with the last posting
Here is a new one,
Since the MTA has become more expansisve the have wanted to now break the county boundaries and extend bus service for such places like from Jamaica to Nassau county and the Bronx to Westchester County using city buses.
Do you think expanding our subways say the WPR to Yonkers, Mt Vernon
or the ill talked out 7 train to New Jersey and of course with the last post creating a line along I-278 to Elizabeth , NJ run by NYCT
or re-opening the North Shore line in Staten Island?
or is that in the works?
Do you think expanding our subways say the WPR to Yonkers, Mt Vernon
or the ill talked out 7 train to New Jersey
Instead of doing that, look at the other end of each of these lines. 2/5 should be extended along Nostrand of Flatbush first. The #7 should be extended past Main St. Flushing.
There's little need to use funds for NY City to improve Upstate. There's even less reason to build improvements for New Jersey. With NY State money, might I add.
There's even less reason to build improvements for New Jersey. With NY State money, might I add.
Yeah, to use NYState or NYC money to make it easier to commute to New Jersey so more businesses move out of Manhattan and into New Jersey. .
Actually the same goes for Yonkers. The subway system should stay in New York City only. For Nassau/Suffolk, New Jersey, Westchester, etc; you have LIRR, New Jersey Transit, and Metro North.
I do like the idea or reactivating the line in Staten Island for passenger use though (again it is New York City).
some city buses already leave NYC, although the Bx34 should go into Mt Vernon via Yonkers. The Bx16 already has a stop in Mount Vernon and should be extended into in Pelham Manor. The Bx41 can of course continue up WPR into West 1st Street Mt Vernon
>>"Do you think expanding our subways say the WPR to Yonkers, Mt Vernon"<<
Won't be necessary unless the MTA gets its way in taking over the bus system. However, I'm mixed about that since the lines would become too long and it would probably better to build a new line starting from the Bronx.
">>or the ill talked out 7 train to New Jersey and of course with the last post creating a line along I-278 to Elizabeth , NJ run by NYCT"<<
I would not build a subway line from New York subway system to go to New Jersey unless they pay a commuter tax ;-). It would be better if it the 7 is extended to eastern Queens
>>"or re-opening the North Shore line in Staten Island?
or is that in the works?"<<
Question. Where would you want it to go. I thought of bringing it to the SI Mall.
And last time I heard the North Shore was used for freight but I really don't know how popular it would be now. If it were to be rebuilt, it wouldn't be too costly since its mostly intact. Now I am NOT sure but I believe it is in the works.
Lets throw a little twist to this. How about if we decide what can be done to improve lines in the current infrastructure, and expansions if you wish. I'll do the BMT & IRT later on
IND:
A--> Run all the 's on the middletrack on the Liberty El, reconfigure tracks after Grant Av. These A's would skip all stops btw Euclid & Howard Beach utilizing the middle tracks in the peak direction then switching to the local track[if a switch is there already]. I'll do line improvements first.
(A):207 St->8 Av/CPW Exp->Fulton Exp->all stops to Lefferts or Rockaways
:207 St->same as above but express to Howard Beach then all stops to B116 St
B--> Back to pre 7/22/01
(B):Bedford Pk Blvd[rush]Concourse local->145 St[all time except nights]->6 Av Exp/CPW local->Manny.B->4 Av Exp via West end
C--> Many of you suggested that the C run to Lefferts but I would bring it back to the Rockaways
(C):168 St->8 Av/CPW Local->Fulton local
D--> Back to pre 7/22/01
(D):205 St->Concourse exp[peak]->6 Av Exp/CPW Exp->Manny.B->Brighton local
E--> Fine
Same as today
F/V--> F's Would return as the Culver express running weekdays[possibly weekends] while G's and V's run local to Church & Kings Hwy, respectively and return of the Hillside express
(F):179 St->Hillside/QB Exp->6 Av local->Culver Exp->CI[when it reopens]
(V):179 St->Hillside/QB local->6 Av local->Culver local
G--> Would run to Church Av all times except nights and would make a plan to allow it to go to 71 Av 24/7 and would be restored to at least 6 cars
(G):71 Av->QB local->Crosstown local->Culver local
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Every time I come to New York and ride the Sea Beach I have to see a damn swastika plastered over the top of the portal leading into the New Utrecht station. Could someone out there please prevail upon the TA to get some workers to whitewash that symbol off that tunnel. I think that's the least they could do. It's bad enough I have to see my train running in an open cut that is filthy and the see stations that are leaking and peeling paint, but I shouldn't have to put up with seeing that disgusting symbol when I ride my train.
>>> Could someone out there please prevail upon the TA to get some workers to whitewash that symbol off that tunnel <<<
Have you sent your letter to the TA? What was their response?
Tom
Hillary, our Senator was here in Albany tonight to do a show with Chris Matthews, and hung out for a while to talk to us "high tech types." I'd ask her to make a phone call, but I fear it would give Fred agita if I did. :)
Hey Listen, if Hillary could do something about that damn thing on top of the tunnel I would even send her a thank you not. That said, you now know how badly I want that swastika taken off the top of the portal.
Yeah, I thought about it, but she already saw your previous comments. :)
Dunno if you caught our Senate Babe on the Chris Matthews "Hardball" college tour last night, but she wiped the floor up with all of the naysayers. I tell ya, I was impressed by what she's done for upstate already, but last night, I've decided that if she EVER decides to blow off Willy, she's WELCOME in our house.
Went down to the brawl as an invite since we're a local software company, and she tried to hook us up with some investors from Europe, showed off what we have among our colleges here and impressed the hell out of other nations that still have an economy. The guests were pretty impressed too with how hard we work and the things we're all doing here and it looks like things might click ... I was already impressed with OUR Senator, and after last night, I'm REALLY impressed. Got her card, Nancy and her will find some time to discuss our OWN situation, will mention the ... ummm ... what was that line again? Bustini bustini ...
Yeah, if we DO get to talk to her again, I'll see if she can have someone make a phone call. But DO bear in mind that those who wear the swastika with pride don't call themselves democrats. Might want to send a letter to Rush limbag and Jerry Falwell ... they're more likely to get a result out of those skinheads. :)
I hate to admit it but I was also impressed with what I heard on Hardball last night. The only problem is that I don't believe a word she says. But at least it wasn't all negative, was it?
Yeah, don't mind me for going off there, Hillary is INCREDIBLY popular upstate, even more so with republicans than democrats primarily because she's made a bunch of promises, and she's KEPT them much to many people's surprise. She's shown by her votes that she ISN'T a liberal and actually does follow a fair and reasonable middle. Chalk it up to one of the oddities of folks upstate - the VAST majority of us are neither liberal NOR conservative and each person's political leanings are really somewhere in the middle of both concepts. Hillary's been a VERY good fit and frankly, Pataki's WORDS have been also, even if he's never carried through on many of them.
But one thing most of us up here don't like is listening to her getting bashed when she's really been on the up and up as far as folks up here are concerned. But yeah, you got to see the real deal on Hardball, and she's her own person. Lots of folks were highly impressed with her there. Once again, sorry for going off, I was in a truly fowl mood after writing a whole bunch of code to solve a Microsoft problem only to turn around and find out that Microsoft went and did a patch for the problem the minute I was done writing a bunch of code after 30 hours on the job. Feeling a bit better now. :)
Good to know you are feeling better about things. A sour and unhappy Selkirk adds clouds and storms to an otherwise happy Subtalk. Have a good weekend.
And happy happy back at ya ... yeah, the chest-beating in so many quadrants really got to me since neither political party offers me much of anything. But yeah, now we gotta play the ball where it landed, if only we could FIND it. :)
I can understand why you'd say "Oh, for the love of Pete!" when something like that would happen after 30 hours of nonstop work.
You don't have to put what you would have said in print.:)
["Hey Listen, if Hillary could do something about that damn thing on top of the tunnel I would even send her a thank you not."]
Hey pal, what did you do to Fred and how did you get his password?
Ha!!!! Yes it is hard to believe but it was me Sarge. I have to be pragmatic you know. I call it being flexible.
NotE the spelling, Fred wrote thank you NOT. TRUE FRED. I can not stomach most Republicans. but Fred Peritore for his respect for Subtalkers who disagree with him and Train Dude for his intelligence are two exceptions.
>>Have you sent your letter to the TA? What was their response?<<
Probably laughing, imagine receiving a a letter of complaint with a return address in Aracadia California !
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably laughing, imagine receiving a a letter of complaint with a return address in Aracadia California !
LOL, yeah that would be interesting (especially to Fred's favorite person - Hillary)!
Seriously though, back to the original post. I think Fred's right. I would not even take a photo of a train at that portal because of that disgrace. And it really has nothing to do with taking photos. It's something that is there for all to see. I hate grafitti, but grafitti like that should not be tolerated at all costs.
If they are laughing at me three thousand miles away, it is a sure as hell sign they are laughing at you and all subtalkers living in and around New York. That you guys would tolerate shit like that is enough to drive me up a wall. I only have to see it a few times a year but everyone riding the Sea Beach has to see it every day, and I wonder what Jews and other minorities must be thinking when they see that. No, Selkirk, they are laughing at all of us and they are a bunch of lazy God damn assholes for letting that sign stay. And you guys are guilty for not demanding they get that disgraceful symbol off my train's line.
PS--Sorry to get so emotional but this is a mad as I've ever been about something concerning my train.
Fred, WRITE THE LETTER. I don't think they'll laugh at you. It's possible (though sad to consider) that no one has officially complained yet.
No, actually they are PROUD to be the winners in the elections. Sorry to put it that way, but the skinheads are what the powers that ARE have celebrated in their boorish, bashing ways. TRUE right wingers are these losers, proud to be neo-conservatives that will put women back to being on a pedestal so one can look up their dress, barefoot and pregnant, afraid to see a doctor ... I'd better stop.
But extremism is extremism, and those guys are on the far right along with many others just like them who are now in CONTROL. They're not "liberals" or lefties, that's for sure, so hopefully those who revel in hatred might want to talk to them, they're mostly teens who grew up on Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. Whatever HAPPENED to the CENTER? A place where REGULAR folks who have families and LOVE one another and their God could be represented? All we've got now is right wing kooks and left wing kooks. I *miss* having a voice in all this ... but I digress, the elections are over and the skinheads and their panderers won. Might want to pen a letter to Dubya and see what he can do. :)
"Whatever HAPPENED to the CENTER?"
I hate to get off topic, but here goes. The CENTER has its head in the sand.
Democrats are the party of HIGH taxes and HIGH spending. People in the center don't like high taxes, so they often don't vote for the Democrats.
Republicans are the party of LOW taxes and HIGH spending (yes, HIGH spending, on their programs). Enough people in the center are seduced by the low taxes part that the Republicans have been winning lately. Unfortunately, low taxes and high spending just don't work, but the voters won't acknowledge that.
Everybody (left, right, and center, except a few Libertarians) wants the government spending (though different people want spending on different items). I'm always flabbergasted when I read the letters to the editor in the papers in Greene Co, which votes 4-1 Republican. They're constantly griping that the government isn't spending enough on the programs they like.
Almost no politician has the guts to say "We need moderate taxes and moderate spending" because anyone who says that tends to lose elections, BECAUSE THE CENTER DOESN'T VOTE FOR THEM.
I'd agree with you, but the real center also realizes that those who fail to LEARN from history are doomed to repeat it. Here we go again. :(
But yeah, this will wander off topic, the "people" have spoken and they're MORONS. Next two years will prove it. Glad I no longer live in a "target" ... all I personally ask of government is to leave me alone, I can find food in the forest, I have no kids. I don't mind paying taxes to take care of the poor, but I get RILED when my tax money goes to Con Agra, Coca Cola, Enron and GE. They can find their OWN money, don't take it out of MY wallet. I'll take care of my OWN retirement, I appreciate the $35 a month that the state will pay, but don't give the rest of it to FNCB and Capital One. I think I can use it more than they can.
I've had MORE than my fill of PeTA, if PeTA wants to save the animals on my wallet, then they can back a truck in here and take away all the skunks, deer and gophers their landlord will let them keep in the apartment; and Jerry Falwell can smooch my butt. I don't CARE what he does in HIS bedroom or what species gets him his yayas, stay the hell out of MY bedroom, yada yada. I'll pass on the tax cut, there are people who NEED the money. Just leave ME some.
Yeah, I definitely don't fit in today's politics, that's why Unca Selkirk is so continually cheesed off at oh so MANY blowholes with a microphone. Ignore that man behind the curtain, don't mind me. :)
Just to perfect my point on "glad I don't live in a TARGET" ... what I meant to add was "live in a target that is STILL undefended because it will have to wait for 3-5 years while the politicos rearrange the deck chairs" ... I'm AGHAST at the mentality of "homeland security" when it throws dozens of agents onto the streets of Keokuk to defend the local grange hall and yet there's no additional protection for the REAL targets, NYC and DC and the planes flying over have gone away.
Al Qaeda just released an audiotape stating QUITE clearly that if America doesn't convert to Islam RIGHT NOW, then NYC and DC *will* be roasted and toasted and STILL, we gotta wait 3-5 years? Well, that's what happens when you vote wrong. America is only a nation for those who voted properly and to hell with NYC. And NYC *is* going to be trashed worse and soon, and our republicans apparently don't give a qwap. I just can't get over this ... and it GALLS me. That was the reason I went so over the top with politics ...
"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." :(
>>>"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." :( <<<
amen. could not have said it better myself. 40% of the eligible voters voting, makes my stomach gurgle.
Peace,
ANDEE
I *wish* I didn't have to say it, that it'd have been obvious BEFORE the election. But I said my piece back then and am bound by my promise. I bailed out of the city over a silly gunshot wound one inch below my right-hand ... ummm ... jewel that landed on the inner thigh. What NYC faces in our vacuum makes MY reason pale by comparison. You'd THINK in this "wartime reality" that there'd be a bit more concern out of our "leader."
And for the 60% who stayed home, well ... you're about to get your comeuppance. Too late now. Don't wanna hear any whining - out where I live, government don't mean doowahdiddy except at tax time when folks like ME get to pay 90% of my income in state, local, property and school. Hate to say it, but phuck yas ... you GOT what you deserve. :(
I totally agree with you on PETA. Most of the Political Left in America doesn't even support them, they are just an ultra-left wing special interests group. I consider myself to be an environmentalist, but not the type of whacko who wants to practically ban everything concerning animals. I believe in preservation, conservation, and taking care of the planet, and not destroying it. Don't eliminate species, stop the suburban sprawl, and KEEP YOUR OIL DRILLS OUT OF ALASKA.
The "Religious Right" in this country does a better job of pissing me off than any other group. How dare they impose their "Family values" on me and my family? Their values aren't the same as mine, and they shouldnt be. Nobody tells me what to value morally and religiously, I am a freethinker. I am an atheist who supports total freedom of religion and I live by common ethics that benefit society (the basis of secular humanism). I don't need some gasbag who can't get a real job preaching to me how to live my life and what to believe in. And when groups like these get control with the government, then we are really up shits creek with a turd for a paddle.
I am tired of our government giving major tax cuts to those who don't need it, and screwing the poor. I am part capitalist, part socialist in the fact that I believe in small business ownership or government-sponsored industries instead of mega-corporations. There should be good jobs and good services for everyone, so everyone can live decently. Instead of eliminating taxes on the wealthy, let's tax them more and give the working class (myself included), disadvantaged and lower-income some breaks. They are the ones that need it most.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Ive been a leftist liberal as long as I can remember, and it outrages me to see the way this country...the country I LOVED (before 2000)...heading down the wrong path. We are rapidly turning into Germany in the 30's, and the American People have their heads in the sand and are too inept to realize it. We need more centrists in this country, and I'd like to see more third parties rise. The better your opinions can be voiced and represented, the better it is. Personally, I am a loyal Democrat, but my beliefs lie more in the Green Party or the WFP's platform. I voted for McCall on the WFP line this past November. I wish my party could be diverse enough to adequately represent its liberal base as well as its moderate members, but that's not likely to happen.
We have The Green Party to thank for 2000. Straight Democrat is the only way to get America back but I truly believe it is too late.
Hey guys, I called information and got the MTA phone number at 212-972-8644, but the problem is that no one is answering the phone. I wonder if this is the wrong number. I want to call and complain about that swastika on the Sea Beach Line as some of you have suggested I do, but you can't complain to an empty phone. If there is another number that anyone knows about please send it my way. This has become a crusade for me. Thanks for any help you can bring my way.
Fred,
718-330-3322
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee. I just called and talked to a gentleman there and he gave me an E-Mail address where I can send my complaint to and he will do what is possible to get that problem rectified. Apparently no one has complained about it and he never heard of that swastika over the portal leading to the New Utrecht Station. Here is where I could use some support from my Subtalk colleagues. A few more complaints might expedite things faster. I can't conceive of a Jew, Black, or Hispanic person seeing that and not being outraged. I am a caucasian and it just aggravates the hell out of me to see it. I hope we can get that damn thing off before I make my next trip to New York. That it is on my line makes it even more personal to me.
You're welcome, Fred. I hope you find closure,
Peace,
ANDEE
I once saw an anti-Semitic message in Queens on an entrance to the 179th St. station on the (F). I immediately told the station agent. It was gone by the end of the day.
That's what you should do in these case. The system is always at least worth a try.
---Andrew
Just to leet you know, the swastika symbol was never a symbol of hatred, but the Nazis used it as a way to spread their horrible and demeaning culture and beliefs. The swastika actually is a good-luck symbol that promotes luck and well-being and was used by several peoples, including Native American, Jains, etc.
There was even a railroad in Illinois who used it for a herald. And the Boy Scouts' Order of The Arrow was originally known as the Order of The White Swastika. Additionally, swastikas were used on old welding gas cylinders years ago as part of the periodic inspection stamp. later a "window" stamp was used and many swastika stamps were overstamped to obliterate the swastika.
It is thus only when its arms rotate counter-clockwise; otherwise it is the hated symbol that it is today.
wayne
I sincerely doubt that the people who put it up on the Sea Beach portal intended it to be an Indian good luck symbol.
Who knows? It may have been. Or it could have been people pulling a prank of some sort. It can be intrepreted in a variety of ways.
A pretty sick prank, if that's what it was. Anyway, it may have meant good luck in the past, but we all know the horror it has come to mean.
Well, if you really think about it, the prankster may have intended to spread the good-luck it has. In a way, the 'horror' it has come to mean is really just a perception that people overall have of the swastika, especially in the US. If they were more aware about it, such hostility wouldn't be present. Though, what do I know? I'm just rambling! :-P
BTW, GP38 Chris, I liked it better when you were just GP38. What does it mean anyway?
It was a neutral, good luck design, American Indian symbol or just a graphic, until the Nazis appropriated it. It has, unfortunately, been spoiled for all of us since 1933. I saw an issue of this alternative magazine called Re-Search, about really "beyond the fringe" kinds of subjects, which, during the late 80's featured an article about someone who collected old pre-1933 objects and photos where the swastika symbol showed up as a decoration, or for good luck. It was just strange - this symbol has come to be associated with such evil that it was jarring and unsettling, to see it used on ashtrays, tables, and especially on the sweaters of some girls' hockey team from Canada in a 1920's era photo. I also found an Indian (from India) Medical journal in a library's stacks, which as of the 1980's had a swastika on its front cover - just as a graphic below the issue's contents list. Again, it was just weird and jarring to see it there, since it is has, to us especially in the west, come to be totally associated with Nazism... A very off transit post I guess - I'm just rambling too.
In a way, the 'horror' it has come to mean is really just a perception that people overall have of the swastika, especially in the US. If they were more aware about it, such hostility wouldn't be present.
If only it were that easy. For one thing, the word horror doesn't really need to be in quotes because it was a true horror, and it is no perception what that symbol has become. The hostility is present with good reason. Millions of people were killed or suffered under that symbol, so the more aware a person is of that, the more that person will realize that that is now a symbol of evil and hatred, and has been since the 1930's. Unfortunately it can never, and will never go back to the innocent symbol it was before.
I am neither Jewish, nor a minority, nor was I even near being alive back then, but if that symbol bothers me, I can only imagine what it must mean to someone it directly affected.
BTW, GP38 Chris, I liked it better when you were just GP38. What does it mean anyway?
GP38-2's are diesel locomotives. They used to be used on the LIRR.
Hmm, interesting, but it's a pity most of those people won't bother to go further into such issues. They let their anger cloud their judgment. If anything, the best thing to do when eliminating such thoughts about something is to promote as it was once ago. That's what I think. I really hate the how agencies like the ADL are begging 'evil' symbols like the swastika to be taken down everywhere just for the sake of its 'evilness'. I'm guessibg everyone by now knows that by restraining or taking away something, it will simply increase its allure.
For example, you have a mother who baked a nice, hot batch of cookies. The mother's child wants one, but the mother doesn't allow him to have any. He wants it even more know. If you thought of the mother allowing the boy to have cookies as he wanted, I'd believe he'd be able to control himself as soon as what eating too many cookies would infurl in a stomach. :-)
What I am trying to say is that if we take things away from the public, it will increase their allure.
Here's a reference NOT ALL THAT BAD
Peace,
ANDEE
Top ten Subtalk posters for November
SelkirkTMO 603 7.07%
GP38 Chris 358 4.20%
RonInBayside 332 3.89%
Steve B 294 3.45%
#4 Sea Beach Fred 253 2.97%
David J. Greenberger 213 2.50%
JohnS 196 2.30%
Peter Rosa 187 2.19%
Chris R27 184 2.16%
Jersey Mike 167 1.96%
32.69% of posts were made by 3.09% of all posters
Before anybody starts wondering how I counted this, I used Excel. These figures are valid as of 11/20 10:46PM EST
If people don't complain about this and don't stop posting frivolous messages to up their count, then I'll do this again. It only took a few minutes to do (although I had to wait for certain things to be done, and ended up walking away from my computer for like an hour)
ONLY 10th PLACE! That's pathetic! It is obvious that I have not been applying myself. I vow to do better next month. Nice report Pigs!
Hopefully these will be QUALITY posts. If I detect that there is any effort on anyone's count to inflate their post count, then these reports will STOP.
If you're studying for gubbamint service, nothing beats a poisson distribution (with tartare sauce) or a pie chart. :)
Your drew it the wrong way. The y axis goes from 0 to 100 percentile of posts and the x axis goes from 0 to 100 percentile of subtalk posters with the percentile arranged from least prolific to most prolific.
All right, does it look good NOW?
My messages aren't frivolous. Except this one.
How can you tell the future? November isn't over yet.
That's why it's MTD: Month to Date
Some of those in the top ten have good reason to use an alias, i.e. they do some of this from work. As long as you don't post the top 20 I'll be fine < G >
184 post by me in only 3 weeks? Yikes.
Empty barrels... :-)
Yikes, I better send that report to my boss. Well, the next two months is my busy season at work, so you will see a lot less of me for a while.
Oh well I'm not on the prolific list - I suppose I've got the excuse of being in hospital for one of the weeks you counted!
Any time post ratios are made public they just encourage nonsense. So I would hope you're not counting the posts that are off topic or otherwise non-contributory in your accounting. It would be interesting to see the values if we had a slashdot style mod system here. For what it's worth here's an accounting of the top 20 since the hiatus:
+----------------------+-----------+-------+
| handle | postcount | ratio |
+----------------------+-----------+-------+
| Steve B-8AVEXP | 10268 | 12.58 |
| SelkirkTMO | 10146 | 12.43 |
| RonInBayside | 8171 | 10.01 |
| Peter Rosa | 7403 | 9.07 |
| David J. Greenberger | 7280 | 8.92 |
| Hank Eisenstein | 5996 | 7.34 |
| Thurston | 5934 | 7.27 |
| Larry Littlefield | 5879 | 7.20 |
| Jersey Mike | 5818 | 7.13 |
| Anon_e_mouse | 5177 | 6.34 |
| #4 Sea Beach Fred | 5059 | 6.20 |
| Train Dude | 4951 | 6.06 |
| SUBWAYSURF | 4578 | 5.61 |
| Wayne-MrSlantR40 | 4561 | 5.59 |
| Paul Matus | 4386 | 5.37 |
| GP38 Chris | 4165 | 5.10 |
| Bill Newkirk | 4034 | 4.94 |
| WMATAGMOAGH | 3908 | 4.79 |
| American Pig | 3902 | 4.78 |
| Chris R27-R30 | 3784 | 4.63 |
+----------------------+-----------+-------+
of 81652 total messages since hiatus.
I don't look at the content of the posts, I saved the index as a file and opened it in word. I then used the convert text to table feature to separate it into cells (with hyphens as the divider) and killed the columns that weren't for names. Then I copied the one column of names into Excel for sorting and counting.
The part that took a while was the part done in word. when I did the conversion or deleted the extra columns, these had long execution times.
Any time post ratios are made public they just encourage nonsense. So I would hope you're not counting the posts that are off topic or otherwise non-contributory in your accounting.
Airliners.net tries to discourge non-contributory postings by rejecting any with fewer than a certain number of characters. I think the number is around 35.As a result, a posting that says "I agree!" will get rejected.
Which isn't to say that their system is foolproof. You can get around the limit by posting, for example, "I agree! Yep, that's true, I agree!"
Of course, I think I can speak for other Subtalk regulars when I say that I can pretty much tell whose postings are usually of high quality, and whose aren't.
Okay, I feel better now. By just the November stats I thought I was going to have to join SubTalkers Anonymous or something. I can see myself at the meeting now:
"Hi, my name is Chris and I have a problem. I am a SubTalker".
Seriously though, I hope I do contribute positively to the board. I would say the majority of my posts are on topic, although I may find myself occasionally falling into an off topic post here and there. I have learned alot from the people at SubTalk, and I hope a few people have learned a bit from me. It really is a lot of fun, and it helps alleviate some of the stresses of the day. When I have a few minutes here and there it's nice to flip to the SubTalk screen and learn something new about the subway system.
That's strange. I consider myself an indifferent poster since the hiatus, espeically since I'm sometimes off for days at a time because of work. But I'm #15. Guess others are even more indifferent. :)
YES! I moved up to #9. Oooo, and we have a close battle between Selkirk and Steve 8th Ave Exp. for #1. This could get ugly. I propose sending a flower basket full of Redbird paint chips to the winner.
Heh. I'll gladly stand aside and let Unca Steve have the checkered flag ... I'm just sorry I came out in the top five actually. Only reason I hang out here so often is waiting for nasties to download on a pathetic dialup and rather than twiddling my thumbs, I end up twiddling subtalk. Guess I need a bit more of a life. :)
I'd settle for a drag race between an R-9 and an R-10.:)
Drag race, eh? SEE? I *told* you a "black teddy" would be the right thing to wear. :)
Mmmmmmmmooooooooooooooooo.
Being in the top ten is frightening... makes me realize just how much time I spend here. I enjoy it all, that's true, but it does begin to take on the character of an obsession.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Being in the top ten is frightening... makes me realize just how much time I spend here. I enjoy it all, that's true, but it does begin to take on the character of an obsession.
LOL, frightening isn't even the word - horrifying was more like it when I saw Pig's November statistics. I felt better when Dave posted the bigger picture from the hiatus on. I'm hoping November was just high for me because I posted a bunch of mystery photos to identify. I enjoy it but - Geesh - November is horrifying!
frightening ... that's a good word.
I'm now regularly on three sites: Straphangers; Railroad & SubTalk/Bus Talk. The first two I've found a way to limit my time there. This one takes me an hour or two to get thru.
As long as I keep enjoying & learning I'll stay (today was one of those learning expierences). AND I've never had so many folks that I can call friends at any other time in my life ! Thanks for that Dave.
Amazingly, according to his statistic, Steve B-8AVEEXP and SelkirkTMO account for just about one quarter of all posts on the board. Throw in RonInBayside, and Peter Rosa and it's 45%.... wait a minute! the ratio totals 146.15. What kind of ratio is this?
I guess, that Pig's was a little easier to understand...
[... Steve B-8AVEEXP and SelkirkTMO account for just about one quarter of all posts on the board ...]
That's going to get worse ... they were internet friends before they met in October, now they are pen pals, AND it's not just the two of them that look forward to the daily communucations ... Good morning Steve & Kevin ... hope your day is going well in Denver & Albany !
We're still internet friends, actually.
What R U wearing? :)
Well, it ain't a conductor's outfit.:)
Buzz. Obviously you're not on AOL ... the answer to "what R U wearing" is *always* "a black teddy." :)
MOO, brother! Whoop! Just upped the ante again, but it's ALL your fault. :)
But yeah, just like the reason why I admire Branford, there's some great people HERE too ... and there's always something here to have some fun with.
Mooo, I'm sure !
Whoops, sorry I did the math wrong, I used the number of posts a person has posted over *all* time and divided by the number of posts since the hiatus. I suppose that's still a useful figure but you're right the percentages are incorrect. But even that posts per user over all time count is suspect. The way I calculated it was this: during the hiatus I counted all the posts sorted by handle. Then for every current handle in the database, matched up to the number I got from the post count. So guys like Pigs who would post under 2,000 different handles are not reflected as highly as they should be.
Whoops, sorry I did the math wrong, I used the number of posts a person has posted over *all* time and divided by the number of posts since the hiatus.
Well, I feel better about it now... since at one time I was a relatively prolific poster (when we didn't have as many on the board as we do today) but I've backed off quite a bit in the past year, simply because (by the time I get to reading a lot of the posts) someone else has already answered with the same info that I have. But I still read/skim them all, unless you have occasion to delete them first (never know when I might find a good nugget that otherwise might be lost due to thread drift). But still... in the top 10 or 20 of all time...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(never know when I might find a good nugget that otherwise might be lost due to thread drift).
That's what makes catching up so slow. There is so much to read, and many times I skip threads where the title doesn't interest me, but sometimes I sample those threads, and many times the conversation is totally different from what the title says, and interests me, so I have to catch up on another thread.
>>> I used the number of posts a person has posted over *all* time and divided by the number of posts since the hiatus. I suppose that's still a useful figure <<<
Not really useful unless you know how long each person has been posting. Glancing back at February of 1998, the first month in this format, of the top five posters, only Peter Rosa at #4 and David J. Greenberger at #5 appear in that month. Since the top three do not appear that far back, their posts per month (ppm) must be far higher than those posting a longer time. And some of those further down the list probably have higher ppms than those posting from 2/98 also.
And, since this is a raw score without reference the quality of the posts, each person has to do some reflection and decide for himself whether he should be proud or ashamed of having a high ppm figure.
Tom
Since I'm "up there" and this "quality issue" has been brought up several times now, I need some guidance here ... should I go away?
"I need some guidance here ... should I go away?"
As long as David Pirmann can afford your postings, what's the problem? No one is forced to click on your messages.
Thanks ... I TRY to keep it relevant, or at least funny. But seriously, if I'm an annoyance, I could spend more time doing WORK. :)
hey kirk...your up and about? thought you would be snoozin'!!!!
30 hour days here and there result in clock shifts, so while I'm often going in the middle of the night into the morning, I generally work on 1/3 day of sleep for every 2/3 day of work and where I land on the clock is completely unpredictable. That's why when folks want to meet up, I need to plan it at least 72 hours in advance so I can twirl around to HUMAN time.
Smacked me in the face when we went to Branford, I probably had about 4 hours of sleep after a 27 hour day, then went and ran a D train on vapors. All part of the "make your own job" reality of living upstate. Every day is "anything can happen day" here, and often Unca Selkirk is stoned from lack of sleep when he posts. I'm starting a day now. :)
Ah, so that's why Nancy was driving....:)
Well, even when I've slept, I have the attention span of a two year old on the road. Nancy's a survivor, that's why she usually drives anyway, I have GREAT difficulty with rubber tires and that silly steering wheel. Too much time running trains, I s'pose. Power, brakes, that pretty much is all one needs to be in control of their ride. Steering wheels are for sissies. :)
And so, after ANOTHER 28 hours, the trojan update is out, I just sent the emails to everyone who wants to know that there's new nasties and they'd better come get their free update of new tricks at the hands of the script kiddies, and Microsoft's (ahem) "security bandaids" that open up BRAND NEW security holes that WE have to fix for those who buy our mud and pay our bills here. Moo, nighty!
what kind of sound does a chicken make?>>>>>> MOO...MOO!!!![according to Edd from ''Good Burger''].
FWIW, I've been reading and posting a lot more often since I got back to New York in January 2001.
So guys like Pigs who would post under 2,000 different handles are not reflected as highly as they should be.
I discovered a text document I made a few months ago where I counted ALL of my posts going back to 1999 when I started posting. I updated it and counting this post, the number is 10,900.
That would make me #2 over all time, since I think Steve B would be higher if you include the time before he was Steve B-8AVEXP.
since I think Steve B would be higher if you include the time before he was Steve B-8AVEXP.
LOL! And he mentioned in a different thread that he just got his first computer at home this week!
the ratio totals 146.15
Errrmmmm... wouldn't one take the mean of the ratios not the sum?
Errrmmmm... wouldn't one take the mean of the ratios not the sum?
No. The mean of the ratios would give you the average number of postings for everyone.
Hey, if I was still at City Planning, had internet access in the office, and had nothing better to do, I think I'd be number one. But there are only so many posts you can make in 20 minutes a day. Heck, sometimes I start a thread and its over before I see it again.
Wait... I understand you used Excel, but where did you get the statistics to calculate that? I wish this MB wasn't so old fashioned...
I understand you used Excel, but where did you get the statistics to calculate that?
Very easy.....just do a simple search in a certain timeframe in the search section.
What's especially fascinating about this is four of the top five aren't posting from the New York City area!
What's especially fascinating about this is four of the top five aren't posting from the New York City area!
Well, although I'm no longer a NYC resident, even though I have been for about 75% of my life, I am still in the area. It's only about an hour drive to midtown (in good traffic), or about an hour to 1 1/2 hour LIRR ride, depending on which line I take. The funny thing is, when I lived in Queens for a while, it would also actually take me about an hour to get to Midtown with the subway (including train waits, and switching trains, etc). So basically it's only slightly longer now than when I lived there.
Interesringly, I would say that this board is kind of divided into three types of posters. I would say just a general break-up would be: (these are not scientific statistics - just a general observation)
1/3 NYC residents
1/3 NYC suburb residents
1/3 not NYC or NYC suburb residents
I would further say that about 85% of the people here either currently live in NYC or have at one time. The rest obviously have a general interest in NYC, it's subway, or transit in general.
I am not an NYC-resident and haven't been for 100% of my life.
I am an occupied Brooklyn resident.
Good Point, I forgot about that.
From Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11182002.shtml
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By Wes Vernon
Washington Correspondent
“Our failure to act to improve security of rail travel is an Achilles heel in our nation’s efforts to secure our transportation system.”
That flat warning from Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.) pinpointed Congressional rejection of his amendment to the Homeland Security Bill.
The FBI warned in October that it had evidence al-Qaeda “has considered directly targeting U.S. passenger trains” and that “operatives may try a variety of attack strategies, such as destroying key rail bridges and sections of track to cause derailments or targeting hazardous material containers.”
In its rush to adjournment, the outgoing 107th Congress deleted Carper’s amendment to include $1.208 billion authorization for rail security and safety measures in the bill approved by the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee.
The measure would have provided for the following:
$375,000,000 for grants to strengthen security at stations, bridges, tunnels, tracks, yards, and facilities nationwide.
$778,000,000 for grants for life safety improvements to six New York Amtrak tunnels built in 1910, the Baltimore and Potomac Amtrak tunnel built in 1872, and the Washington, D.C. Union Station Amtrak tunnels built in 1904 under the Supreme Court and House and Senate Office Buildings.
$55,000,000 for the repair and returning to service of Amtrak passenger cars and locomotives to ensure adequate capacity in the case of a national emergency similar to the aviation shutdown that occurred on September 11, 2001.
However, as desirable as Senator Carper’s proposals may be to passenger train supporters, statements by Association of American Railroads (AAR) President Edward Hamberger and Amtrak President David Gunn have been aimed at assuring the public that the industry is not asleep at the switch on security alerts, even without the extra provisions advocated by Carper and others. “The nation’s rails are safe” is the message.
Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black noted to D:F on Friday (November 15) that the Carper amendment had the backing of Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Ernest “Fritz” Hollings (D-N.C.) who have widely divergent views on the long-term future of Amtrak.
Nonetheless, he reiterated, Amtrak is still implementing a variety of security measures such as requiring ID when purchasing a ticket, possible random ID checks, canine bomb-sniffing and hazmat-sniffing dogs, sweeps of baggage rooms and stations, surveillance of bridges and tunnels, employee alertness for anything unusual or suspicious, to name a few precautions.
No one is kidding himself that any security measure makes a complete airtight dragnet of the system possible, Black said, but there is a “heightened vigilance throughout the system.”
The main focus of the Homeland Security compromise actually had more to do with union rights of the thousands of employees of the new agency than with anything relevant to rail tracks and tunnels.
President Bush insisted he would not sign a bill that denies him the same flexibility in deploying Homeland Security Department employees as those in other security agencies. Failure to give him that room to maneuver, the president argued, would hobble his ability to protect Americans from terrorist attacks. When lives are at stake, according to this view, arguing over whether an employee should be forced to move to another city, for example, is a bit like arguing over the arrangement of “the deck chairs on the Titanic” or “fiddling while Rome burns.”
Longtime TV correspondent Sam Donaldson, who does a local radio talk show here in Washington, said the concession to the unions, allowing an appeals process, is a “fig leaf” for them. Government employee unions, of course, are angry, but the conventional wisdom on Capitol Hill is that a reading of the election returns convinced union allies on the Hill to allow the measure to come to the floor for a straight up or down vote.
While Carper’s rail-oriented security measures were rejected, both the House and Senate passed legislation to “enhance over-the-road bus security throughout the nation.” The bill will provide $99 million from the general fund (meaning all taxpayers, not the Highway Trust Fund) to pay for a bus security grant program to be administered by USDOT. There will also be a $15 million program for “bus security enhancements.”
The programs will cover such items as modifying bus garages to assure security, protecting and isolating the bus driver, and implementing passenger screening procedures and baggage inspection.
The House late Thursday night also approved Senate-passed legislation to upgrade anti-terrorism security at hundreds of ports and waterways and has backed a Senate-approved measure to improve safety and security of pipelines throughout the U.S.
The November 5 election has led to some speculation as to how rail will be affected by the new congressional line-up.
With a party change in committee control, McCain resumes the chairmanship of the Senate Commerce Committee, which deals with Amtrak issues. However, NARP points out in a bulletin to its members that Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Tex.), a leading Amtrak advocate, also sits on that panel.
The NARP Hotline also pointed out that Hutchison campaigned for the newly elected Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.) Cornyn, by the way, replaces his fellow Republican, outgoing Sen. Phil Gramm, a longtime Amtrak critic. Cornyn, during his campaigning with Hutchison, made it plain he differs with Gramm on Amtrak. “Cornyn, Hutchison stump for Amtrak,” read a headline in the November 3 Longview (Texas) Journal.
However, concern about the committee lineups on Capitol Hill persists in the New York City region, the nation’s largest transit-oriented metropolitan area.
Mobilizing the Region, a newsletter from the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, fears for the fate of top projects such as the Second Avenue subway and a second New Jersey-Manhattan rail tunnel.
It was hoped these projects would be included in reauthorization of the omnibus transportation bill, Tea-21 that expires at the end of September 2003. In that respect, according to Mobilizing the Region, New Yorkers may get a hard lesson in the value of seniority on Capitol Hill.
“When the Tea-21 law was crafted,” the newsletter pointed out, “the Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee, which crafts mass transit legislation for the Senate, was headed by New York’s Senator Al D’Amato,” whom New Yorkers defeated in his re-election bid in 1998.
On top of that, New York City faces a $1 billion deficit this year and a whopping $6.4 billion shortfall next year. Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s solution is to propose a gigantic 25 percent increase in property taxes and reinstatement of a commuter tax on non-residents who work in the city.
Not surprisingly, this has prompted howls of protest and determined opposition throughout the area. Critics say if the Bloomberg plan were implemented, the one blessing would be to alleviate traffic jams in the Big Apple because thousands of businesses and workers would simply vote with their feet and leave. It is projected that would stick the mayor with the worst of both worlds – politically unpopular tax hikes and fewer taxpayers, which would translate into a net loss of tax revenue. In turn, according to this scenario, less money in the till and lighter traffic jams would decrease political pressure for big-ticket mass transit projects.
From Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11182002.shtml
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Some 46 Beech Grove, Ind., carmen have been recalled to Amtrak’s heavy repair facility.
Sen. Evan Bayh said on Tuesday (November 12) in Washington that some laid-off Amtrak wreck repair workers at the facility “are being called back to work as a result of Congress’ approval of continued short-term funding for Amtrak.”
The next day, Amtrak CEO David L. Gunn, in a message to all employees, added details, including a similar number being recalled at Bear, Del.
Of the more than 200 Beech Grove workers laid-off, Bayh said, “Amtrak has indicated its plans to return 182 workers to active employment, and 46 of those workers immediately.” The rest will return to work “when total funding is approved, as early as the beginning of next year.”
“This is a major breakthrough for Hoosier workers whose livelihoods depend on the operation of the wreck repair facility,” Bayh said.
Amtrak had previously indicated that once funding is approved, wreck repair, which is done at the Indianapolis facility, is their top priority, and that a significant investment will go towards this effort. A large part of the resources allotted to Amtrak will be used for the Beech Grove facility. In all, about 600 Hoosiers are employed at the facility.
“Amtrak and the wreck repair facility are important to the economy of central Indiana, and Amtrak’s commitment to wreck repair services will bring much needed stability for Hoosier workers at the Beech Grove operation,” Bayh said.
In a message to employees, Gunn said, “In our Fiscal Year 2003 capital and operating plan, we are planning to repair about 26 pieces of wrecked and damaged equipment. The work is starting now at Bear and Beech Grove. We should get about 16 pieces of Superliner equipment back in service by the end of fiscal 2003.” That’s at the end of October next year.
Gunn said the cars “will create essentially two new long-distance trainsets.”
The CEO added, “At Bear, we will repair 10 damaged single-level cars needed on our corridor operations. We will also be making critical investments to our infrastructure, including construction of a new locomotive facility in Oakland, Calif. Groundbreaking is [this] week.”
He also spoke of dollars, and the lack of same.
“We are struggling to stay within a very tight budget. I wish I had another $200 million because I could move ahead faster on additional equipment repair and reinvestment in our plant. However, we will do the best with what we have and squeeze every penny out of each dollar.”
He explained, “We have called back almost 50 people to our Delaware car shop and will call back 46 at Beech Grove. We are working closely with the unions to try and get their cooperation on how the work will be managed, particularly at Beech Grove. If we achieve cooperation, we will be hiring back many more employees.
“It is very important that our production lines are efficient, and produce on schedule and on budget. We are being watched very closely by a number of organizations, some of whom expect us to fail; but if we can deliver what we promised through our budget, it will help us in Congress and with the Administration. So I cannot emphasize how important it is for you to continue to work safely and efficiently. I have confidence in you.”
He said several people have queried him on his views of the recent elections. He said, “My view is fairly simple. Regardless of who controls Congress, no one will support an inefficient operation, but they will support a businesslike, professional company. So while our friends change, our issues and challenges remain the same. I will be traveling around the system on a number of trains this week and next and maybe a couple of thruway buses. Let’s all keep working hard because, in the end, that’s what will make the real difference.”
From Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11182002.shtml
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With Maine just a trestle away from linking tracks at Portland that could carry passenger trains between Boston and Montreal, researchers reported last week that public interest in train travel justifies a thorough study of another Boston-Montreal rail corridor – once a vibrant route through central New Hampshire and Vermont.
No one is saying the resurrection of passenger rail is imminent, but a year-long preliminary study has found nothing to preclude the operation of high-speed trains through the Merrimack River Valley. More importantly, a ridership survey showed convincingly that the seats would be filled, if clean, fast, frequent train service provided an alternative to the automobile, reported the Sunday News for November 10.
The ridership survey was central to the $400,000 study, funded jointly by the Federal Railroad Administration, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont and done by the consulting firm of Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade and Douglas of Manchester. The survey combined computer-generated ridership estimating techniques with information gathered by questioning commuters at airports, bus stations and highway toll plazas.
The survey found “sufficient (potential) ridership to warrant additional study,” said Ronald D. O’Blenis, project manager for the consulting firm.
“We would expect to have as much success on this service as the Downeaster has enjoyed since it began service,” O’Blenis said of the passenger service between Boston and Portland.
In its first nine months, the Downeaster makes the 116-mile run in less than three hours, and carried 245,135 passengers. Ridership in the first year is expected to top 323,000, with the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority estimating revenue of $4.7 million, 44 percent more than it had originally projected.
Construction of a trestle bridge at Back Cove in Portland would take the train to the shopping mecca of Freeport, north to Brunswick and, eventually, further up the coast to Rockland. The $4.5 million has been appropriated.
Flipping a switch or two at a junction near Yarmouth would put it on the well-maintained St. Lawrence and Atlantic track that carries freight daily through Lewiston-Auburn to Montreal. A run along the Boston-Portland-Montreal route would cover about 411 miles.
The consulting team studying the 329.4-mile New Hampshire-Vermont corridor will be reporting its findings, and took comments at three public meetings in Concord, N.H., Lowell, Mass., and Montpelier, Vt. A public session has also been scheduled in Montreal on Nov. 25.
In addition to the question of whether commuters and travelers would ride a train through New Hampshire and Vermont, the consultants will report on other issues associated with resurrecting from scratch what was once a major mode of travel in the region.
O’Blenis said his team examined many things “in a cursory manner.” They weighed the potential for interminable border delays, station capacities in Boston and Montreal, conflicts with freight trains, possible competition from Amtrak passenger service through New York to Montreal and upstate Vermont. They looked at environmental issues and the need to upgrade 360 grade crossings, strengthen bridges, install new track in the abandoned 50-mile, state-owned corridor from Boscawen to Lebanon and improve existing track to accommodate speeds up to 110 mph.
Much would have to be done, O’Blenis said, “but there wasn’t any element that would preclude us from pursuing high-speed rail.”
After it listens to the public, O’Blenis expects the consulting team will recommend a “Phase Two” detailed study of what it would cost to construct, operate and maintain a high-speed passenger rail service on the New Hampshire-Vermont corridor, and the revenue such a service might generate.
He plans to deliver the team’s report to the three states and the FRA by December.
“If there is sentiment to support Phase Two, the states will need to evaluate that in their budgetary process,” O’Blenis said of the $400,000 or more it would cost to continue the study.
Meanwhile, Ronald L. Roy is in the midst of an environmental impact review for a $40 million project that will improve the track and allow the extension of passenger rail service north of Portland, to Freeport and Brunswick. The money to build the trestle at Portland’s Back Cove was included in that mix of federal and state funds.
The plan calls for moving a section of the old freight line to within sight of the interstate highway near Portland, where motorists in slow-moving, rush hour traffic could glimpse the Downeaster speeding by.
Surveys have indicated the riders are there to support the train. Construction could start as early as next year and, “We’re looking to have it start service in 2005,” said Roy, the director of passenger services at the Maine DOT.
At the wye near Yarmouth, Roy said, “If you take the right leg, you go to Freeport... If you take the left you would be on the St. Lawrence and Atlantic, which goes through Auburn and Bethel and up through Berlin, where it cuts across the corner of Vermont to Montreal. We’re working with Auburn in developing an intermodal facility at the airport that would connect the turnpike, the airport, buses and the rail line all at one location.”
Roy said the state’s priority is to extend passenger rail service north along the coast and to Auburn. Passenger service to Montreal would probably be limited to special summer excursion trains “for the foreseeable future,” Roy said.
He noted the track, which is perfectly adequate for freight trains, would have to be upgraded all the way into Montreal to make it a high-speed rail corridor. That would be expensive.
Unlike the New Hampshire-Vermont corridor, with its abandoned section north of Concord, the Maine advantage is that the St. Lawrence and Atlantic is an operational line.
“It’s always easier to fix something that is there,” Roy said.
That fact – that Maine has an operating rail link to Montreal – is worthy of note, said Wayne E. Davis, who as head of the Northeast TrainRiders organization worked for more than a decade to get the Downeaster on track.
“The St. Lawrence is a willing road and I can’t imagine that, once Amtrak gets squared away (financially), they would not be fascinated again with the prospect of running passenger trains through to Montreal,” Davis said.
“It stands to reason that, if there is connectability there, that people would be drawn to ride, as they have been with the Downeaster, and not just to go from end-to-end. Nobody thought people would be buying tickets to ride from Saco to Durham or be getting on in Haverhill and getting off to spend the day in Exeter. That’s only my opinion, but they won’t know until they try it,” Davis said.
State Rep. Charles D. Fisher, an admitted “railfan,” whose home in Brewer is rich with memorabilia, believes he will never see the restoration of passenger service between Portland and Montreal.
As Transportation Committee chairman in the Maine House of Representatives, Fisher sponsored the bill that cleared the way for construction of a trestle at Back Cove. Passenger service to Lewiston-Auburn, for example, could stimulate economic growth in that area, but the question is how much subsidization taxpayers will support.
If you live in northern or eastern Maine and the road that runs by your house is in need of repair, “would you support work in southern Maine to restore passenger service to Montreal? Knowing the attitude of my Downeast friends, I think they would be unfriendly toward it,” Fisher said.
Then there’s the addiction to the automobile.
“You see them driving round and round in the parking lot at the mall, waiting for a slot to open up right in front of the stores,” Fisher said. “We have train service now from Portland to Boston, but we still have 80 percent of the commuter traffic to Boston going by car.
“So, while my romantic side says we’ve got to have that rail service back, the reality is that people just don’t take the train.”
That's a bizarrely schizophrenic article. It mixes up Boston-Portand-Montreal (a long route) with the direct Boston-NH-VT-Montreal route with no transitions to explain which one it's referring to at any given time.
If I read it correctly, via Portland is very feasible with very little work (except of course it's way out of the way, which they don't mention). On the other hand, the direct route seems to be a right of way with exceedingly poor track and a need for a massive infusion of money.
Despite the title, if the facts in that article are true there isn't going to be direct Boston-Montreal service in this decade or the next.
From Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11182002.shtml
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It looked like a promising season for the Chicago Bears, but roughly halfway through the season, the chartered Amtrak service that makes stops en route to Bears games in Champaign began losing power.
The kink in the tracks?
The Bears, writes the Daily Southtown of Tinley Park, Ill, part of Chicago.
The NFL football team is playing so poorly it is keeping people away.
“The Bears record is starting to work against me,” said Larry Conrath, the Homer Township businessman who helped organize the service. “The enthusiasm has ebbed.”
Unless a rousing crowd turned out Sunday to watch the Super Bowl champion New England Patriots, Conrath was considering putting the brakes on the train with three home games to go in the season. He cited declining interest.
To boost sales for the Patriots game, walk-up sales were permitted for the first time. If CHAMPtrain is still around for the November 24 game against the Detroit Lions, early ticket buyers will be rewarded with a $4 discount from the $46 face value.
Conrath said he is fighting a losing battle with every Bears miscue.
In a 2-7 season, there have been plenty.
“It is really putting a damper on things,” Conrath said. “One guy on the last train said to me, ‘They expect us to go all the way down there and cheer from them. They give us this.’”
The idea of chartering a train to Champaign was the brainchild of Homewood officials and erstwhile Bears fan Conrath.
The hope was teeming trains of parched, hungry football fans with loose wallets would prime the Homewood, Ill. economy.
At times, it almost worked.
Almost 300 riders went to watch the Philadelphia Eagles. A capacity load of 400 passengers rode to a Monday night game against the Green Bay Packers, but even the bigger games did not translate into a windfall for restaurants and taverns in downtown Homewood.
“It is not the shot we anticipated,” said Steve Nemitz, president of the Homewood Chamber of Commerce and owner of the Fifth Quarter and Pressroom Eatery.
“It is the product on the field. If the Bears were even .500, it would be a different story.”
The finger-pointing has started in the village.
Homewood Trustee Bill Frank criticized the efforts, saying they started too soon before the first game and lacked promotion. He added that because the train originates from Chicago’s Union Station, most passengers came from the city and had little reason to check out Homewood.
Frank, a travel agent, said Conrath could have used the help of someone in the travel business.
“He is not getting the help he could have had,” Frank said. “It is Marketing 101.”
Nemitz insisted that all is not lost.
“If I get one customer out of this whole deal, I would do it again,” he said. “I commend the village and this guy for trying.”
Nemitz talked about trying again next year. The train would use the Metra Electric Line tracks to get fans to the rebuilt Soldier Field.
From Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11182002.shtml
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To find the beginning of the North Plymouth pedestrian and bike trail, you have to go back 10 years. That’s when the North Plymouth Steering Committee added the concept of a walking trail along an abandoned four-mile-long New York, New Haven & Hartford rail line to its master plan for the village. The trail still is not built, but its future now looks brighter, after the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority released the right-of-way to the unused line that runs along the waterfront from Nelson Street Park to Cordage Park.
A decade is a long time to wait for the legal wheels to turn, North Plymouth trail planners told the Boston Globe last week, but they also said they believe the path will be an important recreational resource for area residents. According to local architect Jeff Metcalfe, who helped devise the plans, the trail may be a step toward a network that would take pedestrians and cyclists from North Plymouth’s Cordage Park down to the waterfront, the town’s center, and to Morton Park, a mile inland from the harbor – a total of about four miles.
In October, after years of local pressure, the MBTA finally agreed to release the route. The decision was the result of “a level of encouragement by the legislative delegation,” said state Rep. Tom O’Brien, (D).
“We’ve been working on this for the last six years,” he said. O’Brien, Rep. Vincent deMacedo (R), and state Sen. Therese Murray (D) all represent Plymouth in the legislature.
The North Plymouth Master Plan, adopted by Town Meeting in 1992 as part of the town’s Village Centers Plan, states that “an access to the waterfront will help make North Plymouth a destination,” said Planning Director Jack Lenox. The plan advised the town to secure the right-of-way to a mile-long stretch of abandoned rail bed running from Nelson Street Park, a strip of sandy beach with a playground about a mile north of Plymouth Rock, to the Cordage Park railroad station, located amid the old brick buildings of the Plymouth Cordage Co. rope factory. The right-of-way could be improved for use by pedestrians, bicyclists, and a trolley shuttle, the plan stated, and connect walkers and other recreation seekers from Cordage Park to Jenney Pond Park in the town center.
The trolley shuttle concept has not survived, but design plans were nearly complete five years ago, Metcalfe said, when a policy change in Boston put the North Plymouth right-of-way on the list of real estate assets the administration of former Gov. William Weld was seeking to sell. The state initially offered to sell it to the town for $300,000, the same amount the town had been awarded through a federal recreation resource development grant to improve the rail bed for cycling, baby carriages, and pedestrians.
Today, a slim hard-surfaced ribbon parallels the beginning of the right-of-way at Nelson Park, but it comes to a stop a few hundred yards down the tracks. Beyond that, a narrow dirt footpath continues along the route, bordered by slim birches and scrub oak at the start and by tall grass and clover nearer to the shore. The trail crosses two roads, Robbins Road and Atlantic Street.
There has been a number of efforts by comunities to turn rails into trails. I think it's a better idea then just letting the neighbors absorb the land, i.e. old LIRR rockaway line.
From Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11182002.shtml
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Hardly had the leaves fallen and the S-Bahn trains are standing in the repair shop and the customers are standing around in the region. The politicians want to control the problem via the money by the motto “less performance – smaller payment.”
Does that help?
A view into the train repair shop in Leinhausen stirs up doubts.
For days now it’s the same old game: Early in the morning the commuters are standing and waiting in Springe, Haste or Burgdorf at the train platforms. Then comes the train – and nearly at the same time so do the moans: yet again has the S-Bahn half the normal length of cars, instead of the double consist of the self-propelled train has only a single consist shown up.
Each consist of ET 424 class EMUs is four permanently coupled and articulated car sections.
During rush hour and other high demand periods, two consists are coupled together making a total of eight cars. That means once more crowding and confinement in the train.
What the S-Bahn commuters don’t realize is that “It is actually an achievement that no trains were canceled:” said Dieter Lange of the DB-Regio division. He coordinates dispatching trains in Lower Saxony and Bremen. Of the 40 S-Bahn EMUs which are in-service in pairs in the Hannover Region, seven sit in the Leinhausen workshop for repair – the wheels are no longer serviceable – not because of bricks or rocks or other hard debris, but due to foliage – simply leaves.
Lange points out the damage locations, which the autumn leaves have caused. They are flat spots in round wheels with depths of millimeters. They originate during braking if the wheels lock-up and skid. Every automobile driver knows this phenomenon: it’s wet, and leaves or other debris leave a slippery film upon the street, and when you brake, it’s like skating.
With the train, it’s nearly the same, except here its bare metal against bare metal. When the steel wheel first looses its traction, there is hardly any stop. The metal heats itself resulting in a grinding-off ending in a flat spot. The passengers recognize this later during the journey as the wheel produces a thumping noise.
If it was only the noise, the DB would leave the repairs for later, but the momentary shocks, which result from the dent in the wheel with each revolution, announce the onset of heavier damage. The axle suffers under the imbalance, as do the drive motors, not to mention the entire structure of the train.
So, DB brings in the rail cars which have such damage to Hannover-Leinhausen. Formerly the facility was a huge modification and modernization shop, but nowadays it is only a repair workshop for DB-Regio. Routine checks, maintenance work and repairs, the employees know their trains and their defects.
Are the S-Bahn trains especially susceptible to dents and other damage on their wheels?
“No”, says shop leader Helmut Speder emphatically.
“S-Bahn trains accelerate quicker and therefore brake more often thanks to their integral drive system”. However the quality of steel in the wheels is the same as used on conventional passenger rail cars, according to Speder, “it’s all high tempered steel.”
http://www.newsday.com/business/local/newyork/ny-bztran203010901nov20.story
Kudos to the Civic Alliance for opposing this Rube Goldberg scheme. Where are the editorial boards?
FWIW, I read into this the inevitability of the Rube Goldberg scheme having the necessary political capital to force the A and C lines out of the tunnel. I see the sledgehammer approach being applied to the dissenters of the LIRR WTC terminal plan here and it seems VERY obvious the landlords will prevail.
There's no way the LIRR will gain any control of current subway trackage. Bet on that.
Duh. :)
HOWEVER ... remember that the POLITICAL strings are being pulled here by VERY connected people who have PAID for our elected representatives. I can assure you that when the magic wand is waved, rocks really CAN float. I've witnessed it when NYNEX and TimeWarner circumvented federal law, got sued, and the STATE went to court and WON on their behalf. I've seen even stranger things happen in 12 years of gubbamint service at the "pleasure of the governor."
I sit here beside myself waiting for the floor show. Should be QUITE amusing to see what our anointed can do ... and with a "man-date" they can probably get away with it. We'll see ...
1. Pataki will not be governor forever.
2. The only other possible Republican successor is Rudy Guiliani.
3. If not Guiliani, the next governor will be a Democrat.
4. All of these people will understand and must pander to the interests of the city of New York to win election. Coming out against the takeover of the Cranberry St. tunnel by the LIRR will achieve this goal.
5. This issue is probably the only thing that Gene Russianoff and myself would agree on and to work together to prevent. If one issue can do that, it's doomed!
Actually, you can go even further and say as of now Attorney General Elliott Spitzer is the front-runner to become governor in 2007. He's not exactly "Mr. Wall Street" right now, and would undoubtably like to take a political stand on a position like this that would further enhance his image as someone on the side of the averge person and against the financial power brokers.
Giuliani is no more likely to get elected upstate than Koch, so no worries about that. And I expect any "deal" to be made one way or the other over THIS winter somewhere for that LIRR plan. Given how the budget process works, they'd have to propose one way or the other in the upcoming budget school after the State of the State message. That's also when we'll find out what MTA has to work with, and shortly thereafter once they have the budget summary, they'll need to make their plans or make their case for changes by the legislature.
Rent control expires this coming JUNE, so that'll probably serve to make this the latest budget EVER. "Interesing times ahead" please stand clear of the revolving door. :)
There's no way the LIRR will gain any control of current subway trackage. Bet on that.
And I don't know why it keeps resurfacing. It's got to be one of the most ridiculous plans out there.
I agree with you on that. Plus the cars are too long and it would just be a waste, moivng C's off to run with the F to W 4 would be disasterous and there are way more important projects that should take place.
"it seems VERY obvious the landlords will prevail."
If it were free, then sure. But do you think other people with influence will sit still while all money goes to this project while ESA and SAS die?
There are big landlords around 3rd Ave in the 40s and 50s, who will see their office space go up in value tremendously if SAS gets built. Landlords around both GCT and Penn will gain if ESA gets built (because then trains from CT can go into Penn). They aren't going to sit quietly while the state diverts all is capital funds to the downtown project.
The improved South Ferry station will cut the 21-minute travel time from Penn Station to lower Manhattan to 11 minutes, Lapp said.
Huh? A well-designed terminal won't reduce travel time substantially, if at all. A poorly designed terminal will reduce capacity and increase headways.
That line on the South Ferry project is nutty. A redesigned SF terminal would cut possibly 45 seconds off the travel time from Penn Station, since the wait at Rector so passengers in the rear five cars could move up would be eliminated. From SF to Penn Station, I suppose you could say travel time would be cut be eliminating the "terminal" stop delay at Chambers, but that would only involve shifting the wait from there back to South Ferry -- sometimes the train would leave the moment passengers got on, and sometime it would sit in the station for a while, the same way it works at all terminal stations.
(That line on the South Ferry project is nutty. A redesigned SF terminal would cut possibly 45 seconds off the travel time from
Penn Station, since the wait at Rector so passengers in the rear five cars could move up would be eliminated.)
I STILL do not understand the new South Ferry Terminal.
The existing station has two liabilities -- the half size, which increases dwell time, and the curve, which requires platform extenders and more frequent rail replacement. The half size is the bigger problem, but could be eliminated by extending the platform out the backside. That's 90 percent of the benefit for a fraction of the cost, perhaps $30 million vs. $400 or $700 million (why the new station would cost that much under a park I don't get either.
I've seen scale drawings and ridden around a few times. The existing station is on the tightest part of the curve. There is one additional car length of tight curve, and then a shallow curve. So you'd have one more car with plaform extenders. That's it. How much of the delay is due to the platform extenders, rather than people walking between cars? Not much I'd say.
Aside from wear on the rails, if conductors were ever eliminated from the trains, you'd have to put one on the platform here if it were left curved. But removing conductors is years away, and what's one train professional in a TERMINAL?
Aside from wear on the rails, if conductors were ever eliminated from the trains, you'd have to put one on the platform here if it were left curved. But removing conductors is years away, and what's one train professional in a TERMINAL?
And even if it had to be two, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I see little benefit of the SF project. At least not worth the money that would need to be spent on it. There are more important projects. If anything, as sugested, just extend the existing platform for a fraction of the cost of a new terminal. The time savings is no where near 10 minutes as someone mentioned. Little time will be saved with a new terminal. If anything, it be simialar or even slow things down from the way they are now.
Add to the problem the fact that for GOs and mid-day turnarounds on the Lex, the inner loop would have to be maintained and a coneection between the inner loop and the 1/9 line, or a dual four-track terminal for the B'way local and the Lex express would have to be created, with a crossover between the two for any GOs.
Given the closeness of the Bowling Green station to South Ferry and the lack of any rush hour train that could properly serve the station while the 5 goes to Brooklyn, the only solution I could see would be building two brand-new terminal tracks right next to the outer loop, while leaving the loop itself in place for east side-west side relays and Lex turn-arounds. As close as the SF station already is to the bay, the new terminal would have to be further to the northwest under Battery Park, which would mean a longer walk for passegners to the 1/9 trains, especially those sitting in the rear five cars (which also means people would still end up moving to the front five cars to get to the ferry faster; it's only the unaware tourists that would benefit from avoiding the Rector-to-Rector route).
Better just to keep the loop, add 260 feet to the rear end of the current station and put in TV cameras and a monitor at the conductor's position so he can see around the curve.
Better just to keep the loop, add 260 feet to the rear end of the current station and put in TV cameras and a monitor at the conductor's position so he can see around the curve.
Or just add a platform conductor to an extended station. It's still cheaper than the total rebuild of SF.
(Better just to keep the loop, add 260 feet to the rear end of the current station and put in TV cameras and a monitor at the conductor's position so he can see around the curve.) Or just add a platform conductor to an extended station. It's still cheaper than the total rebuild of SF.)
I agree. The advantage of a true loop (unlike Brooklyn Bridge) is that there is need to wait for someone to clear the train. You just keep going. BTW, I think the plan is a new station to the northwest, further away from the ferry. What else could it be?
I think the issue here is they have a pot of money that could only be spent in Lower Manhattan, so that limits the range of competing proposals in a cost benefit sense. No one was talking about this before the pot of money was created, and no one would be talking about anything more than extending the platform it if the pot could be used for any of the higher MTA priorities. Now, however, all kinds of things come up. The Rector-Rector connector? Please.
That's why I would appreciate if the MTA would show a little "creativeness" on the Second Ave. subway project and come up with a full-length plan that ties into the Nassau Loop. Depending on what was consdiered "downtown" part of that $4.5 billion could be spent on the connection from Second Ave./Chrystie St. to the line at Delancey, and more money from that could be used to realign the Nassau Loop north of Chambers, so that the Second Ave. trains could run through to Broad St. and Brooklyn.
The city/state would still have to come up with the cash for the line north of Delancey or (to stretch it) north of Houston St., but that project would definitely qualify as improving mass transit access to the WTC area. The South Ferry plan comes across as a grandiose scheme for a miniscule benefit.
Again I agree. I just don't see a major change after all the money that would be used on South Ferry. You basically have the same kind of run for the 1 train, except that a whole train would be able to platform on a straight platform. The time savings would be minimal, or possibly even worse, as has been discussed.
As for the 2nd Ave using Nassau street. That is a win-win situation. You have all kinds of unused capacity on the Nassau line (both physical and operational), an instant connection for the 2nd Ave subway to go right to Brooklyn, and no need to build new tunnel south of the connection of th SAS and Nassau. It would be much cheaper to clean up the infastructure and add the SAS to Nassau Street than the Water Street proposal. The J could still go to Broad, the new SAS could run through to Brooklyn replacing the M, and the M could either terminate at Chambers, or maybe even go up to 6th Ave to replace the V (if the V could handle 8 car trains, which some here said it can.
Now that is a money wise plan for improving service in lower Manhattan. Now if only they could use some of that money for that conversion instead of the SF plan that will give us nothing really better than we have now.
(You have all kinds of unused capacity on the Nassau line (both physical and operational), an instant connection for the 2nd Ave subway to go right to Brooklyn, and no need to build new tunnel south of the connection of the SAS and Nassau. It would be much cheaper to clean up the infastructure and add the SAS to Nassau Street than the Water Street proposal.)
When I e-mailed this preference to the MTA under "Planning Studies", the analyst there e-mailed back that it wouldn't really help much on cost because the platforms on Nassau would have to be lenghtened. Only 8 cars? Wouldn't be that hard north of Chambers, and doable south of Broad, but Fulton is a little tight.
Shoot, I forgot about the 8 car limits (somehow I thought of it when thinking of the M replacing the V, but forgot about Canal, Chambers, Fulton, and Broad having to be 10 car lengths for the SAS). Extensions have been done on other lines, so I guess it's not impossible (although it does increase the costs). Are all the platforms only exactly 8 cars long, or are any of them already closer to 10 cars long?
For part of that $4.5 billion, they could probably find a way to add on 120 feet of platform at Broad, Fulton, Chambers and Canal for the Second Ave. line. I mean, compared to the lengthening needed at some other BMT stations in the past (especially DeKalb) we're not talking about anything that hasn't been done before.
Looking at Peter's track map the main roadblocks would be relocating a switch north of Broad and relocating the switches north of Chambers, along with a slight curve in the northern extension of the platform (Chambers, Canal and Broad would have to be extended to the north; as a bi-level platform, Fulton could be extended in either direction, though going south, towards the MTA's new "transit hub" between Broadway, Nassau, Fulton and John streets, would make the most sense in terms of a unified downtown transit project that the feds would smile upon).
Now, however, all kinds of things come up. The Rector-Rector connector? Please.
Well there IS a need for a transfer between the West Side IRT and the Broadway line somewhere below Times Square. But, I would've thought that connecting South Ferry to the Whitehall St mezzanine would be easiest ... the existing stairwell to Whitehall in front of the SI Ferry Terminal is within spitting distance of the new/temporary South Ferry entrance.
Supposedly, both the Whitehall and South Ferry stations are going to be connected directly to the new SI Ferry terminal. If they do that one level below the street, it seems like it would be relatively easy to put a connecting walkway within the fare control zone along the back (north) wall between the 1/9 and the N/R stations.
And to cover the expresses, run a passageway from the Park Place east ("south") mezzanine to City Hall across the street. Although the lower level might get in the way -- Todd, do you have measurements?
I agree, David I think that is more easier than a Rector-Rector connection. I think South Ferry should become 4 tracks double platform, eliminate the current 5-car curved platforms and allow the Lex Av service[alternate 6's and 5's middays, weekends] to terminate at 1 platform while the 1/9 could terminate on the other.
Rector-Rector accomplishes several things for the Transit Authority: a 1/9 N/R transfer; closing one or more station booths; connecting the subway by concourse to Battery Park City.
As for South Ferry, I think a major goal is to integrate it into the new ferry terminal for better intermodal connections. I am not as familiar with the layout there as I should be, but I think that improvements are needed in the flow of passengers between the ferry and the train.
And in the process you'd be reducing capacity on the 1/9 line by approximately 50%. Are you sure that's what you want to do? (The vast majority of 1/9 passengers don't go anywhere near South Ferry.)
The current running time between Penn Sta and South Ferry is 15 minutes not 21 minutes.
According to the Tri=State Transportation Campaing in their weekly Mobilizing the Region newsletter, new PATH cars and newe PATH fare collection system might face postponement due to the PA's monetary woes. Diverging from rail, the Goethals Bridge twin seems dead as is rail expansion.
Also, if the NYC fare goes up, do you think they'll go up on PATh top match the NYC fare (be it 1.75 or 2.00). I think, if NYC goes up the PA will try to raise PATH since they already wanted a $2.00 PATH fare.
PATH fares are naturally lower than NYCT fares. PATH raising would cause NYCT to raise its fairs, not the other way round.
PoRt, Not Pot
The answer to the first question is yes, if the PA has money woes then PATH fares and PA tolls should be raised to subway and TBTA levels. In the last recession, the PA avoided this by cancelling airport access (half STILL cancelled) and raiding the NYC airport profits. Let's not do THAT again.
Not building now is disgusting. The Pols borrowed and built at inflated prices during a boom. Now with construction workers facing unemployment (no new projects in the pipeline) they are cutting back.
In the last recession, the PA avoided this by cancelling airport access (half STILL cancelled) and raiding the NYC airport profits. Let's not do THAT again.
Not that there ARE any airport profits these days!
***This message is a what if message and is not based on inside information and should not be taken as "We will do this if we dont get that."****
1.75 Cuts
6 overnight goes back to 125
A/C- no weekend C. A runs local Fulton Street and North of 50th/8th
increased headways- possibly 25 minutes overnight.
possible 15 minutes weeekends.
What ere your ideas for cuts for a $1.75 fare (assuming it is not a bluff or scare tactic)?
****Here again, this is just what if and I have no power to do anything but just interested in what cuts you would make. What would you cut in addition for keeping the 1.50.****
To keep 1.50:
Make the 3 a bus shuttle from 148 to 135 on weekends, eliminating the 3 on the weekends, and extend the 4 to New Lots. Make the 2 like a 9 train on the weekends and run it local (service cut, not as many trains needed). 5 shuttle from 180-Dyre Ave, eliminating 5 from Bowling Green to 180st on weekends. If the people in the Bronx or Harlem complain or whine, the fact of the matter is that all the lines converge in Manhattan and to make cuts smack in the middle of Manhattan would screw things up even more. That's the Clayton plan.
Clayton - don't ever move to the Bronx. We'll be waiting for you
You got that right.
Peace,
ANDEE
You got a PROBLEM with the BX55? :)
The only problem I have is that they had to tear down the 3rd Av El in the Bronx.
Same problem *I* had ... I rode that train regularly (even with those gawdawful R12's) ... the BUS? Feh. I fell in love with da D train.
At least on the R-12s the conductor assumed the position. Except for the 7, the 3rd Ave. el was the only other line where they ran in solid trains.
I _loathed_ those A train wannabe's ... they were dogs, just like the 10's. And EVERY crew on the line wanted their LoV's BACK. :)
I was particularly fond of the strangest cars of all, the Steinway Worlds Fair Lo-Vs. The last trip I made to 3 Ave (16 April 1971) found the R12s there, and the WFLoVs in work service, those that weren't scrapt.
wayne
The WF LoV's that ran on the Third Avenue El in the Bronx were actually VERY well cared for and nicely maintained righ up until their disappearance. They took VERY good care of them as did the crews. Here's a view of the interior of what we'd been used to prior to those awful R12's courtesy of www.palter.org/ ...
...Solid Trains?
>>>...Solid Trains? <<<
All consists being of the same type equipment.
Peace,
ANDEE
HELL, I'm still in love with 'da D train. Call me crazy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Crazy? I was willing to PICK a SPLIT just to work my homey. And if THAT wasn't nuts enough, I'd do a turnaround onto the next Arnine out even if I had to jump ahead three intervals to get one. Now THAT'S nuts. I tell ya, if only my RT's began and ended at 205th, I probably woulda never went home. Alas, reporting to Stillwell when I lived at 204 and Webster sure cured me of THAT career. :)
UMMM, I said call ME crazy, not you...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes we will.lol
Amtrak Modeling
Bad idea. Really bad. And why does it have to be the 2 and the 5? The 2 and 5 are bad enough as it is. Better reconsider your ideas.
Why would you only hit the Bronx [although I don't live there]. Not a good idea, you have to make cuts systemwide. Even though I would try my best NOT to make cuts, unfortunately if I had no choice & the fare stayed at $1.50 with numerous ervice cuts well:
All lines except shuttles-->possible headway reductions :-(
A-->go back to pre 5/2/99, all late night trains to Lefferts Blvd
D-->eliinate concourse express
E,F,G,R,V[Queens Blvd]-->scaled down to 1 express weekends, F may have to go back to pre 12/16/01 but stays on 63 St
L-->reduce headways by 2 minutes
M-->back to Chambers middays
N-->runs via 4 Av express rush hours only
R-->back to 36 St late nights
Rockaways-->late night round robin service to/from Euclid Av
1/9-->reduced headways by 2 minutes and/or eliminate skip-stop service
3/4-->I'm not even hot about this but
a)possibly eliminate 3's on weekends and let 4's replace it, thereby eliminating weekend Brooklyn express service
b)terminate 4's on weekends at Atlantic Av but slightly increase 3 service
6-->reduce headways by 2 minutes, scale back on midday peak express service to 10AM to BB, start at 2 or 3PM to Pelham Bay instead of 12:30PM
7-->reduce headways 1-2 minutes, scale back on peak express to 10:30-11AM to Times Sq, start at 2 or 3PM instead of 12:45PM to Main St and end all express service at 8:30 or 9PM
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
"Make the 3 a bus shuttle from 148 to 135 on weekends, eliminating the 3 on the weekends, and extend the 4 to New Lots. Make the 2 like a 9 train on the weekends and run it local (service cut, not as many trains needed). 5 shuttle from 180-Dyre Ave, eliminating 5 from Bowling Green to 180st on weekends. If the people in the Bronx or Harlem complain or whine, the fact of the matter is that all the lines converge in Manhattan and to make cuts smack in the middle of Manhattan would screw things up even more. That's the Clayton plan."
Although I agree there should be a service cutback for the #3 line.. I do not agree to make the 2 local on the Weekends.. the entire day...
N Broadway Line
I think you're much too optimistic about the level of cuts needed with a $1.75 fare. Don't forget there's a quintuple whammy: NYCT is already running at a deficit from 7 years without an increase, there are some decreases in ridership due to the recession, there will be a new contract with some raises, there will be a reduction in the state subsidy to NYCT, there will be a reduction in the city subidy to NYCT.
I heard, for what it's worth, that MTA board WILL be pressed to do the $2.00 and there's still some chinese firedrills going on in Albany with respect to what the fare hikes will be on MNRR and LIRR that there's talk of going *BEYOND* $2.00 to $2.25 in order to limit the damage to suit-covered anuses who voted PROPERLY ... after all, Paturkey's got a "man-date" and can bitch slap the city with impunity. Who's going to vote now?
Budget message follows the "State of the State" in mid-January when Division of the Budget will release the proposed 2003 budget, and once that's done, the agencies can figure out who gets the Arnine buttplug. Until then, EVERYTHING is mere hearsay ... stay tuned ... enjoy the Holidays, Paturkey's cooking up a Kissmoose ham that'll be served in mid-January for every birl and goy ...
Read my lips...the transit fare will not go beyond $2 this time around. If the fare goes up to $2.25 on this go around, hell will freeze over. Since the devil hasn't used ice skates in a while, this won't happen.
Paturkey's cooking up a Kissmoose ham that'll be served in mid-January for every birl and goy ...
Well, the goyim can eat the ham, but Jews aren't going to go anywhere near it!
We're actually hoping it'll keep Al Qaeda away. :)
A decrease? I remember hearing news that ridership was at an all-time high this year with crime being its lowest.
The cuts I would make to try and save the fare:
* express service in Brooklyn on Fulton Street weekdays only; evenings, nights, and weekends A would make all stops
* evenings, nights, and weekends C runs between 168th Street and Chambers Street, Manhattan
* Brighton express service rush hours only
* J cut back to Chambers Street evenings, nights, and weekends
* J local between Myrtle and Marcy Avenues at all times
* M runs between Metropolitan Avenue, Queens and Chambers Street, Manhattan middays
* B service between Bedford Park and Herald Square rush hours only
* 3 runs between 148th Street, Manhattan and New Lots Avenue, Brooklyn weekdays only
* weekends 3 runs between 148th Street and Wall Street, Manhattan
* evenings, nights and weekends 4 local between Nevins Street and New Lots Avenue, Brooklyn
* V service rush hours only
* G service permanently cut back to Court Square.
* E and F run local along Queens Boulevard midnight hours
All other service not mentioned here would remain the same.
"* weekends 3 runs between 148th Street and Wall Street, Manhattan"
Wall Street? Where's the 3 going to turn back without fouling up the 2?
How about run the 3 to South Ferry and loop there? Crossover at Chambers.
increased headways- possibly 25 minutes overnight.
25 minute headways are a b****. No-one knows when their train's due.
help the MTA funding
1. Cut the Bx20 from Riverdale and place it on Co Op City via Burke Ave weekdays only, it will get more ridership from the school kids and others in the area
2. Run 1/9 skip stop peak direction only, switch the order of 1/9 only stops and terminate the 1/9 skip stop at 238 Street, the 1s will go to 242nd whil the 9s will go OOS and head straight for the 240st yard. Let's be fair to those at E241st who had to lose service during the last service cuts, now its W242nd's turn to feel it
3. Cut those numerous lines in Queens running at night, the F goes express? cut that as well and run it local.
4. Cut the useless express buses like the X32 and all the other X buses as well, they are a drain on the TA's funding
5. Run the C to Lefferts and take the A off of Lefferts, then the C can run as a shuttle from Lefferts on weekends(for now) to Euclid and the A can run express in Manhattan(when it meets the B/D), the B for now can run as the CPW local from 34th Street to 168th Street
6. Cut some night bus service in Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan where the bus parallels train lines. Most Manhattan buses should not run 24/7 unless they are crosstowns or service a street without any subway service
7. Make more part time booths, like those on the (5) line, especially in Mahattan with multiple entrances, close some of them and let them use another entrance, or use HEET's
8. Cut the shuttle buses out and run a shuttle train for the (3) line at night. Make shuttle train service longer on Sunday mornings for the (3) and (5) lines for a while to save money.
9. Eliminate the senior citizen discounts and see if that will raise farebox revenue
10. Cut off peak service on Metro North and LIRR since hardly anyone uses it on weekends, they want their subsidies, then they can take that, that will lower their fares for them. Put the Bx34 bus to Mount Vernon as a replacement for that Metro North, the increased Bx34 ridership will help the MTA
11. Cut some LI bus routes and replace them with extensions of the Q5 and other Queens buses. LI bus would soon drain the funding from NYCT buses as one company and NYC needs as much service as it can get
12. Add Metrocard to Westchester Bee line routes and have most of routes feed right into the subway instead of Metro North
And one thing that'd really make a differnce to add ... ELIMINATE the student discounts and bus passes, let them appreciate the free market economy. In fact, we should TRIPLE the fare for students to offset the costs of vandalism. :)
no don't do that, kids are FORCED to go to school, and not all kids are vandals, some adults are vandals
The student bus passes are paid by the city.
The students would just not use the buses or trains restricting them to thier neighborhood schools. The way it should be unless they are going to a special program ie : brooklyn tech etc.
This would not raise an additioal reveune. But it would cut the vandelism
Just for the record, I only said that as a counterconcept to cutting passes for seniors that a couple of folks had proposed to make it somewhat personal, and by doing so to indicate that cutting such might not be the best solution. In reality, the fare increase is inevitable and unavoidable, only question being how much? It could be more than $2.00 based on current tink-thank study groupages now wrestling with the numbers and coming up short.
What we have here is the bill coming due for all that "borrow and spend" politicking prior to the election. What's particularly sad about all this is that Paturkey didn't HAVE to spend like a drunken sailor, he would have won anyway. Maybe it would have been justified if he were 10-20 points down in the polls, but he wasn't. There was no NEED for the spending and pandering binge that WE now have to pay for. :(
"5. Run the C to Lefferts and take the A off of Lefferts, then the C can run as a shuttle from Lefferts on weekends(for now) to Euclid"
On weekday midday, unless you mean the C to be a shuttle then too, or unless you mean to cut A service, this is actually a service increase, extending the C and sending all As to Far Rockaway instead of half of them.
"10. Cut off peak service on Metro North and LIRR since hardly anyone uses it on weekends"
??? Don't know that much about the LIRR but there is no peak service on MNRR on weekends. The service that does exist on weekends is extremely well used. Weekend trains (typically 1 per half hour) are quite full. Weekday peak trains are usually standing room only.
"12. Add Metrocard to Westchester Bee line routes and have most of routes feed right into the subway instead of Metro North"
These are run by Westchester Co., not NYCT, and Westchester has just announced drastic service cuts.
"10. Cut off peak service on Metro North and LIRR since hardly anyone uses it on weekends"
Remeber the people who use it on weekends pour tons of moeny into the economy of NYC on weekends. Elimination of these services will hurt the city economy even more
There is the way of being immensely unpopular - restore the extra fare to stations Broad Channel and beyond or even extend it inward to Howard Beach to catch the JFK-ers!
It is less expensive to run the shuttle buses (which are just regular M7s and M102s) than to run shuttle trains. Running the C to Lefferts is more expensive. 242nd Street IIRC has MORE passengers than 238th, there is no reason to make the 9 end there. Also, there is no free crossover at 238th. 241st was vulnerable to a cut because it was inconvienent to run the 5 there and there were other options. You can't cut back the 9 terminal. Express buses are NOT a drain on resources, although some are bigger wastes than others. You also can't cut senior discounts, how else are these people going to get places? It is hard enough for some of them to use the subway as it is, you think they will use it at a full fare?
ok fine, I could keep the senior discounts, but get rid of the reduced fare unlimited cards, or at least get rid off the 11/10 discount on the reduced fare cards.
See my post about raising the fares for those. As for the 11/10, they can change the value. For example, make it for every 15 rides, you get a certain number free.
the seniors discount reducton is off the table. Most local politicians depends on the senoirs to get elected
How about eliemated the staten Island discount on the varazanno bridge. The reason for the surcharge is that SI had fewer mass trasit then the rest of the city. this is nolonger the case.
si railway is free
the ferrry is free
there are many more express routes on si
How do they charge that SI discount anyway? Can someone explain that?
I never proposed taking senior fares away, thegreatone did. If senior fares were discontinued, I bet about half the people paying that fare would find other ways to get places. Since the fare would be more than doubled, the TA would still lose money.
. Make more part time booths, like those on the (5) line, especially in Mahattan with multiple entrances, close some of them and let them use another entrance, or use HEET's
This would have already been done if not for a law suit by the strapies and the ACLU. The union already agreed to the messure
They should go one further and close all booths on the broadway and lex local uptown or downtown
For those who are not familiar with the broadway and lex locals. Uptown and downtown portions of the stations have their own fare control thus at least two full time booths. With the advent of metrocard vending machines this is not needed anymore
and when a MVM or HEET takes your money, MTA should also refund your stamp(.37 cents) postage and or the 1.50 fare that it costs for you to go to Jay Street to get a refund.
That's some serious bullshit if you ask me, I have Saturday School and I don't want to be going local from Nostrand to Euclid, especially If I'm late.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
OK then, we can arrange an express train to take just you to school if everyone pays 5 dollars. Also, don't leave the house late, that's your fault, not the TAs. Finally, Nostrand to Euclid is not all that long a trip.
It's called public transit for a reason. Public transit doesn't cater to single individuals. If it did, we'd have some Redbirds kept and my whole fantasy transit system would be built.
Hell No!!! Sometimes I leave late because of things, and who said TA was to blame, I just would like to have the express service, From Nostrand to Euclid is 11 mins on the A Line and 15 on the C Line, I had a stop watch on both lines.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
You implied the TA was to blame for your being late. I guess you will just have to leave the house four minutes early. Also, you could get up earlier so that when these "things" arise, you end up leaving on time. You can also look at it this this way, you get an extra 4 minutes on the subway. What is wrong with that?
But finally, my point remains. It is public transit, and as a result, you don't always get what you want. If you have a desire to get the service you want when you want it, use a taxi or a private vehicle, don't rely on the bus or subway.
Well I'm not the type of person to get up at the crack of dawn to get to school.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I don't like getting up early myself (anytime before about 10 is an ungodly hour in my opinion unless it is for something very good) but I do it anyway. The fact that I will be on the subway within an hour of when I get up often speeds up the process, especially if I think I might get a bus that I don't normally get.
You won't win this argument, everything is against you. If you lose express service, you will either have to get up earlier or be late.
Well if its only a 4 minute difference, its not too bad but you are just going to have to adjust your schedule & leave a little earlier. If the C comes first, you may as well take it b/c service is slower on weekends and the express run is shorter than 11 min unless you were delayed.
Run the B rush hours only
Cut late night service on the 6, D (to 145th, change for A, F at W4th), F (21st Street to CI only)
If this is less expensive, eliminate the 9 and have every other 1 terminate at 137th during rush hours AND middays
Shorten 42 St Shuttle hours
Cut C service (should remain on weekends if funding is available)
Hmm...to have the B run rush hours only is really pointless, why not eliminate it or just have it run the whole day and it doesn't run on weekends. Shorten 42st shuttle hours? How about Never-Never with that one, its like 6AM-12AM as is...
I don't know exact ridership numbers but the idea would be to have almost identical numbers of D trains during both middays and rush hours. To serve the additional rush hours commuters, the B would run local while the D ran express in the Bronx.
I think the 7 could absorb the additional riders from the shuttle. I would only cut it down by an hour or two in the evenings and maybe early weekend mornings so we would be seeing nothing shorter than 6 AM to 10 PM weekdays and 8 AM to 10 PM on weekends. I don't know how many people from Broadway shows need the shuttle but I imagine it shouldn't be too bad. Like with the DC MetroRail, service could run later on Friday and Saturday nights. Remember, just because every seat is taken doesn't mean that there isn't enough service, I am sure the 7 can manage.
Just FTR, I happened to be at Times Square around 11:15 tonight and there was a huge mob waiting for the shuttle. I didn't make it down to the 7 so I don't know how crowded it was.
If you or someone else is there on another night like tonight and have the time, check out the load on the 7, it be interesting to see what things are like down there. Thanks for the report.
I was on the 7 line in manhattan at 7PM or so, rush hour time somewhat. Packed, believe me, no cuts to the TS shuttle, its good the way it is.
Cuts at 7 PM are out of the question, I am talking about later in the evening. How about then?
Here's what I'd suggest. I'm not touching rush hour service (even though I think some changes are warranted), and some of these changes are politically unlikely to happen, but here goes. I'm also establishing consistent names for local services more than is done now. Yes, these changes will hurt.
(A) No service late nights and weekends; use (C) and (H) instead.
(B) Rush hours, as now. Middays, evenings, and weekends: 205th Street to 34th Street, local. Late night shuttle: 205th Street to 145th Street, local; transfer to the (C) upstairs.
(C) Weekdays, as now. Late nights and weekends, extended to 207th Street and Lefferts Boulevard.
(D) Rush hours only. Other times, use (B).
(F) Late nights, local in Queens. No other changes.
(G) Court Square to Smith-9th Streets at all times.
(H) Late nights and weekends only: Euclid Avenue to Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway to Euclid Avenue, round-robin shuttle.
(J) Late night service cut to Chambers Street. Broad Street closed late nights.
(M) Midday and evening service cut to Chambers Street.
<Q> Midday and evening headways doubled. Passengers encouraged to use the (Q) local instead if it comes first.
(S-Rockaway) No service when (H) runs.
(1) Alternate midday/evening/weekend trains turn at 137th Street.
(3) Rush hours only. (M7 and M102 extended to 148th Street-Lenox Terminal at all times.)
(4) Extended to New Lots Avenue, via local between Atlantic Avenue and Utica Avenue, all times except rush hours.
(5) Weekends, Dyre Avenue to E. 180th Street only. Other times, as now.
(6) Late nights, Pelham Bay Park to 125th Street only.
<7> Midday and evening headways doubled. Passengers encouraged to use the (7) local instead if it comes first.
Install HEETs and close most rush-hour-only booths. Passengers who feel unsafe using an unattended entrance at other times can use the full-time booth instead, as they do now.
The M to Brooklyn is not funded by the MTA but rather by through state funding. Service will continue as long as funding permits.
If you cut 1 service enough, I don't think alternate turnbacks at 137th on weekends and during the evening will be necessary.
The M7 and M102 terminal should be moved to 147th and Powell anyway. Have that be both the first and last stop, no more layovers at 146th and Lenox.
You sure the 3 running rush hours only will work? My suggestion would be to run the 3 to Brooklyn weekdays and to have weekend service between 148th Street and South Ferry via the express.
Why run the round robin shuttle in the Rockaways if it is used more than the Lefferts Branch? I would shuttle to Lefferts.
I would also swap the B and D designations outside rush hours and swap the A and C late night designations. It will be hard to convince people the train goes further outside rush hour than it will to convince them the A is running local.
Decrease < Q > service but cutting down on the < 7 > in a major way won't work, too many people IMO. Also, don't try to convince me it is possible to tell people to take the local if it shows up first, some will, many others won't.
The M to Brooklyn is not funded by the MTA but rather by through state funding. Service will continue as long as funding permits.
Can you elaborate on that, I never heard that before. Is that true with other lines also?
If you cut 1 service enough, I don't think alternate turnbacks at 137th on weekends and during the evening will be necessary.
I 1 service is cut, wouldn't that make the turns at 137th MORE necessary?
and swap the A and C late night designations. It will be hard to convince people the train goes further outside rush hour than it will to convince them the A is running local.
I agree with that even if it's just psychological.
Also, don't try to convince me it is possible to tell people to take the local if it shows up first, some will, many others won't.
It's human nature. Just look at the V on Queens Blvd, many people will pass up a V and wait for the F. Silly yes, but it's almost common practice.
I don't know to what extent you follow buses, but let me explain the "this service is funded by _____ state and will continue as long as funds permit".
Before WMATA's Red Line opened in Montgomery County, MD, a bus route called the N9 ran from Montgomery Mall to Federal Triangle (downtown). The bus started at (you might want to open Mapquest for this or see the schedule link further down) the mall (Westlake and Autopark in Bethesda, MD), took 270 to River Road to Goldsboro Road to the Clara Barton Parkway and into Downtown. This route was very popular and even ran articulated buses.
In 1984, the Red Line was extended from Van Ness to Grosvenor (again, you might want to see a map to see how big this was) and again later that year to Shady Grove. Almost immediately, ridership on the N9 fell dramatically as people flocked to the MetroRail. WMATA soon discontinued the N9 and the N5 (Glen Echo to Federal Triangle) and combined them into a single route, the N7. The N7 did not stop on River Road nor did it pick up passengers in DC. Ridership slowly dropped. Over the years, they made changes to the route, such as allowing passengers to board on River Road and on Massachussetts Avenue in the District. Prior to June of 1999, the fare was 1.10 with a 1 dollar surcharge. When fares were changed in June of 1999, it went down to the 2 dollar express fare (no surcharge). Eventually, WMATA announced it was going to discontinue the service altogether. The riders of the line protested, saying that the ridership counts were done in the summer so ridership would be lower. A petition was circulated to save the route. The state of Maryland soon agreed to fund the operating costs for the route. As a result, it still runs (although a few trips were eliminated) and there are notices next to the N7 on the fare description on the backs of the other schedules saying *service as long as state funds permit. On the N7 schedule itself (I have no hard copies but you can view it here, it doesn't have this notice on the map but it is on the back where the fare is described. Essentially, WMATA is paid by the state of Maryland to operate the route. WMATA doesn't care if they have to or not, provided they don't pay for it. As soon as Maryland discontinues funds, WMATA will put the wheels in motion to discontinue it and there won't be much to save the N7.
Now, for the M train. I need not describe the MannyB flip of 2001 but I will say this. Chinatown wanted the M to run to Brooklyn middays and evenings (which it does, it runs to Bay Parkway until 9 PM), the TA didn't. Pataki came in and said to the TA we will pay all operating costs for this service. Since the TA now doesn't have to pay to operate it, they run the service. If the TA faces budget cuts, they will not be able to cut out the M service to Brooklyn to save themselves money. If Albany has budget cuts and chooses to cut M funding, then the TA has the choice of continuing or discontinuing service. The fate of the M in Brooklyn isn't in the hands of the TA but in the hands of Albany.
I hope this now makes sense to you. If it doesn't, let me know.
Thanks a lot. That clears it up pretty well; I understand completely. Actually it sounds a bit like some of the Vermont Amtrak services.
I never knew that is what happened with the M. Are any of the other lines in the subway system state funded or is the M in Brooklyn unique with this?
The M to Brooklyn is the only one that I am aware of, I don't believe there are any others.
I would say most Amtrak services are funded this way. The only group of lines that really aren't are the cross country lines, some of the Califorinia lines, some lines into Chicago, and the NEC.
If you cut 1 service enough, I don't think alternate turnbacks at 137th on weekends and during the evening will be necessary.
Why would I cut 1 service? The short-turn is the cut. The 1 can afford a 50% cut north of 137th; it can't afford any cut south of 137th.
The M7 and M102 terminal should be moved to 147th and Powell anyway. Have that be both the first and last stop, no more layovers at 146th and Lenox.
The subway station is at 149th.
You sure the 3 running rush hours only will work? My suggestion would be to run the 3 to Brooklyn weekdays and to have weekend service between 148th Street and South Ferry via the express.
West Side IRT weekend and midday service is underused. The 2 should suffice. (Remember, this is a service cut. It's going to hurt.)
Why run the round robin shuttle in the Rockaways if it is used more than the Lefferts Branch? I would shuttle to Lefferts.
Because crews don't like the long local run to Far Rockaway, and it's impossible to implement a round-robin shuttle with Lefferts.
I would also swap the B and D designations outside rush hours and swap the A and C late night designations. It will be hard to convince people the train goes further outside rush hour than it will to convince them the A is running local.
Ask a random subway passenger what the difference is between the A the C and he'll tell you express vs. local, not 207th vs. 168th. Most passengers going past 168th are neighborhood residents, who will quickly learn whatever service pattern is thrown at them, while local stations get a lot of use by tourists and regular riders of other lines, who get confused by inconsistent service patterns. As much as possible, confine the inconsistencies to the parts of the lines that don't get many occasional riders.
An all-local D is identical to the rush hour B, except for one stop (and which track is used at 34th). A heck of a lot more people use the local stops than use 205th. Let the passengers at 205th figure out that the B is their train all times except rush.
Decrease < Q > service but cutting down on the < 7 > in a major way won't work, too many people IMO. Also, don't try to convince me it is possible to tell people to take the local if it shows up first, some will, many others won't.
The Flushing line didn't have midday express service at all until a few years ago.
People can wait for the express if they like, but then they forfeit their right to complain about insufficient service. They had sufficient service; they decided to let it pass. Their loss.
The 7 needs its midday express more than the 6 and the Q do, thats for sure.
I am sure whatever letter they assign for the A, B, C, and D, there will be some people who are confused. While we can try to make as few people confused as possible, the TA likes making express trains run local at night, not extending the local designation. I happen to like it more as well, personally.
I know the 3 station is at 149th, 147th and Powell is closer than 146th and Lenox (149th to 147th isn't that long). The point is, unless the terminal move actually costs more (which it shouldn't), and cutting 3 service and moving the terminal saves more money than running the 3, then why not move it? It seems to me to be one of the cheapest adjustments they can make to make up for the lost service. It also moves this terminal to a much more convienent location for the passengers (I see no reason why the drivers would want it on Lenox instead of Powell).
6 midday express service is needed, it is the only kind of all day express The Bronx has, unlike Queens which has more lines.
What is your point? I am sure the Pelham line can do without express service if they need to cut service more so than the 7. The other Bronx lines make out fine during the day without express runs, I am sure the 6 can too. Of course, every other train could still terminate at Parkchester...
Point is that The Bronx shouldn't be screwed over anymore than it already is, the 6 IS the only midday express in the Bronx and it should stay, those trains are packed even before 3 pm
The midday 6 might as well have express service. Some of the stations south of Parkchester are among the least used stations in the system. The stations between 3rd Avenue and Parkchester don't need double the service of the stations north of Parkchester, so as long as alternate trains terminate at Parkchester, through trains might as well run express.
The midday 6 might as well have express service.....through trains might as well run express.
Did I hear correctly? David is advocating express service?
......I'm just kidding, I understand what you mean. That section of the Pelham line gets Lexington Ave Line headways during the day, and it really doesn't need it.
Looks like reality is finally setting in.
First, I'd increase the unlimited ride card disproportionately, and raise the fare to $2.25 during rush hours, keeping it the same during non-rush hours. One day passes used on weekends or first used after 9:30 would not change in price (they could be a separate color or something and only valad during those times). No more half fares for seniors during rush hours, either.
Next, I'd spare base and weekend service on the train to keep the waits from getting out of hand. Once every ten minutes should be the minimum. Instead, I'd shave rush hour service on the less crowded lines (everything except the Lex, Flushing and Queens Blvd lines) down toward the minimum, until the crowding gets out of hand.
I'd eliminate bus service on lines parallel to trains. Some people may not be comfortable on the subway, but when service is being cut we can't afford preferences like that.
Otherwise, cutting bus service is difficult, because on many lines service is infrequent. Bus lines should be combined where possible. If anyone complains about a bus in their neighborhood (ie. the B71, unless it has more than 8,000 riders per weekday, it should be dropped.
And late nights? Back to my central IRT connection to buses network. The money we'd save in G.O.s alone would make it worth it.
First, I'd increase the unlimited ride card disproportionately, and raise the fare to $2.25 during rush hours, keeping it the same during non-rush hours. One day passes used on weekends or first used after 9:30 would not change in price (they could be a separate color or something and only valad during those times). No more half fares for seniors during rush hours, either.
This all sounds good to me.
Next, I'd spare base and weekend service on the train to keep the waits from getting out of hand. Once every ten minutes should be the minimum. Instead, I'd shave rush hour service on the less crowded lines (everything except the Lex, Flushing and Queens Blvd lines) down toward the minimum, until the crowding gets out of hand.
And the myth resurfaces. Based on a book of 1996 statistics (the most recent data I have), I computed hour-by-hour passenger loads on each of the IRT lines leaving the CBD between 7am and 7pm. See post 396649 for the Brooklyn 4/5 and post 396806 for the other lines. The 6 is crowded indeed, peaking at 139.2 passengers per car. The 4/5 is also pretty crowded, at 121.7 ppc. But the 1/9 is a hair more crowded than the 4/5: 125.3 ppc. The 7, at 73.8 ppc, is emptier than all but the Brooklyn 2/3. (If anyone has more recent statistics, I'd welcome updated numbers, but these are better than nothing.) If service on the 1/9 is reduced, the TA will have to cut a trench in the tunnel ceiling and legalize subway surfing, since there's no room inside the trains. (I had a miracle today. Not only did I get a seat on a NB 1 train at 72nd a few minutes before 5, there were about a dozen empty seats in my car. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like that in the afternoon rush.)
I haven't computed the Queens Boulevard statistics (nor would they be relevant anymore, since service patterns have changed), but E's aren't horrifically crowded in the middle cars, and many E passengers can use the R or V instead. (Sure, they'd prefer the express, but the local will take them where they're going. The only line that stops at my home station is the 1/9.)
I'd eliminate bus service on lines parallel to trains. Some people may not be comfortable on the subway, but when service is being cut we can't afford preferences like that.
Even if those bus lines are well-used, for whatever reason? (I can think of some valid reasons, like difficulty in climbing stairs or walking up to five blocks to the nearest subway station -- and up to another five blocks at the other end.) After getting off my miraculously empty 1, I went upstairs and saw a packed M104 went by.
"I haven't computed the Queens Boulevard statistics (nor would they be relevant anymore, since service patterns have changed), but E's aren't horrifically crowded in the middle cars, and many E passengers can use the R or V instead."
As an aside, what nobody has pointed out is that the renovation of Lex/53, by creating a full length mezzanine, will allow E riders to spread out more and still be more easily able to transfer to the 6. I think the reason they all crowd into the front cars is because otherwise you have an endless shuffle before you even get to the escalator in the front of the station.
"Even if those bus lines are well-used, for whatever reason? (I can think of some valid reasons, like difficulty in climbing stairs or walking up to five blocks to the nearest subway station -- and up to another five blocks at the other end."
Just to provide supporting evidence: my wife rides buses whenever she can because she has knee problems. When I ride with her, I notice a lot of riders who aren't the world's most athletic, and who could easily be pained by walking the extra blocks to the subway station and then doing the stairs.
Just to provide supporting evidence: my wife rides buses whenever she can because she has knee problems. When I ride with her, I notice a lot of riders who aren't the world's most athletic, and who could easily be pained by walking the extra blocks to the subway station and then doing the stairs.
I started using the 34th St - LIC ferry in its previous incarnation over two years ago because I have severe knee problems. When the ferry service was cancelled, instead of using public transit I opted to drive in to Manhattan even though it cost more because I simply could not take the pain of climbing stairs daily, and the fact that the subway does not get further EAST than Park Avenue so I would have had to take a bus from home to the train to another bus to get to work.
If there was a Second Avenue Subway (or if every subway/el station had escalators) I would probably have considered using it since it would save me the second bus ride or the L-O-N-G walk from Park Ave.
The ferry service started up again three months ago and I am back on it!! No stairs and it stops on the East Side!!
The ferry service started up again three months ago and I am back on it!! No stairs and it stops on the East Side!!
Perhaps you should campaign to haver the 34th St Shuttle restored ;-)
Perhaps you should campaign to haver the 34th St Shuttle restored ;-)
Working on it - the TA promised to restore it right after they finish restoring the Polo Grounds Shuttle
I assume that means the Myrtle El is going to be rebuilt?
Yes, with trains over the Brooklyn Bridge. It's rumored that there will be two Metropolitan - Jamaica routes: (J) Jamaica - Broadway - Nassau - Myrtle - Metropolitan and (M) Metropolitan - Broadway - Nassau - Myrtle - Lexington - Broadway - Jamaica along with a (Z) Jamaica express to Broad St. :-D I wish...
NYC would be quite a different place had the Els survived! Imagine all the strange routings with Bluebirds on them...
It would be much better if they kept the current headway overnight and ran the trians OPTO. This would alow for the current service level to maintained.
Both options wil cause increased crowding especially overnights on weekend
There is enought rolling stock both in A and B devisins to run OPTO overnihgts and on some lines all weekend
Remember that a new contract is coming up so it is a good time for the MTA to change work rules.
NYCT Service cuts:
Make weekend "A" service 207 to Far Rockaway only, make "A" shuttle Lefferts to Euclid all weekend from 0001 Sat to 0500 Mon (possibly making the "A" shuttle OPTO for the weekend and nights) , make weekend "A" service all stops Fulton Brooklyn, 8th Ave Express, "E" remains 8th Av local to 50th , "C" trains 168 to Chambers Street only local stops, extend the "D" all times to 2nd Ave (local south of 42nd to 2nd Ave), eliminate the "V", "G" to run 71st Ave to Smith-9th all times (making "G" trains 6 cars again, much to the delight of "G" line customers tired of running many car lengths to get to the train, cut thru Rockaway Park "A" service rush hours, make slight increase to frequency of Rock Park Shuttles to accomodate. Eliminate 42nd Street shuttle on weekends (close platforms) customers use #7 for cross-midtown service, #5 becomes OPTO shuttles E.180th - Dyre Ave. all weekend, #2 service all stops to 149th, customers transfer there for Lex Ave. service (#4), #6 cut back nights to 125th, customers transfer to local-stop #4 night service, no #3 service weekends, buses 135th to 145th-Lenox Term., #2 remains 7th Ave Express, #1 7th Ave Local, #2 & #4 makes all local stops weekends in Brooklyn from Atlantic to Flatbush and New Lots, respectively (no Eastern Pkwy IRT express on weekends). Reduce bus service weekends on lines with lowest ridership in ALL boros. Slightly increase time spacing all bus lines. I don't know much into bus service patterns, so I can't speak on this, really.
As a note regarding one proposition I mentioned regarding "D" service to 2nd Ave. all times, when doing this consider making the "F" a 6th Ave Express, which will attract ridership. I think the "F" express on 6th will work because all too often in my time I have been asked when working a 6th Ave line train is there an express to get one down the line faster, even had people who still continue to wait at 34th, 42nd or Rockefeller Center wondering if there is an express that goes down the 6th Av. line. Their questions will be answered if this plan is implemented, and might be somewhat of a softening source to the pain of service cuts, and might just pool in more money.
We'll see how this all plays out when, if any, plans are implemented.
Ok, too many cuts are a bad thing, especially for those who work at night.
I got stuck in the A div in this pick, live by JFK. Likewise you have people that live in the Bronx and work nights at the airport.
So you're saying, for me to get home (let me use Pelham Master as an example), or for those workers to get to work, I/we have to:
- Take the 6 to 125th
- Then transfer to the 4
- Then trasfer yet again for the A
At late night headways, you're talking about the possiblity of waiting an hour for trains alone. So a trip at that time could take close to 3 hours. And if there's an ABD on one of those lines, you could be looking at an extra 15 minutes.
Even for those who work late in Lower Manhattan, you're talking a longer commute.
People definitely wouldn't go for that. Work 8-10 hours and spend that much time travelling within the city? Doesn't make sense.
The 6 and 4 never meet when it runs to BB either, they still have to take 3 trains.
Here's waht i see the ta doing if subway service has to be cut.
Fulton st / 8th avenue / washington heights
A incresased to 5 from 7.5 with Far rokerway running express and lefferts b'lvd s running local.
C run only
seabeach/ 4ave / b'way / Astoria
N cut back to 57th middays
metropolitian/Nassau/4th/Westend
M cut back to chambers st middays and evening .
Brighton/broodway
Dimond Q.s cut to rush hours only
Circle Q's increased to 7.5
Wakfield / 7ave / flatbush
2 increase weekend service to 6 min peaks ( see 5,4,3 ) half of service originates/terminates at 180st and utica ave
Lenox / 7th ave / new lots
3 elinate weekend service
Woodlawn/lexington/eastern parkway
4 cut back to atlantic ave non rush hours weekdays
4 increased to 4 minutes peak saturday 5 on sunday with half of service terminating and bowling green
4 extend to new lots weekends
eastcheaster/lexington
5 weekend service cut back to shuttle
Lexington/pelham bay
6 weekend express in bronx when headways are 6 or less
Flushing
7 weekend express in queens when headways are 6 or less
The 6 and 4 never meet when it runs to BB either, they still have to take 3 trains.
Depends. Me, I take the 6 all the way to BB and then walk over to B'way-Nassau. 5 minute walk as opposed to a possible 20 minute wait during late night hours. Cut back the 6 though as Paul suggested then its a mandatory 3 trains.
A DIVISION???? Ouch!! Then again I might be going to the A Division soon, too!! I'm moving up to Parkchester this week, right by the 6. Train Man gonna conquer more territory!! :-) But I'll be living by there so the commute won't be bad, not to mention I'll more than likely opt for AMs. Where do you be at Goumba-man?? Might see ya' there!
Oh great!!! More B Division people crossing over. Just what we need..........:):)
Yeah well don't be too worried. As soon as I can get back over to the B, I'm there. :)
A DIVISION???? Ouch!! Then again I might be going to the A Division soon, too!! I'm moving up to Parkchester this week, right by the 6. Train Man gonna conquer more territory!! :-) But I'll be living by there so the commute won't be bad, not to mention I'll more than likely opt for AMs. Where do you be at Goumba-man?? Might see ya' there!
Well, right now I'm posting at PB Master. So come up there soon (forget about waiting for the next pick), and I'll trip your trains as they come out of the relay at Parkchester. :)
The #6, to the #4, to the A Local is the way the service used to be if it was late and had to get to your part of Queens from The Bronx!!
It's how it was before the #6 was extended all times to Brooklyn Bridge. It's nothing new. More than likely if cuts are done, that might be how it plays out. We'll know soon enough!!
the #6 used to go to Brooklyn Bridge until 1980 when the #4 ran express all night, the #6 then got cut to 125 Street at night, and the #4 ran local. In 1999, the #6 was re-extended to Brooklyn Bridge at night, however #4 night express service was never fully restored (a few #4 trains run express at night)
Wow, drastic cuts... if we're talking THAT severe, how about:
IRT
- close 145/Lenox and 148/Lenox
- close Dyre Line and replace with a bus shuttle
- close 42nd St shuttle and replace (eventually) with a moving walkway
(1) all times South Ferry - 242 VCP Local
(2) all times Flatbush - 241 Woodside Local
(4) New Lots - Lex express (nights local) - Woodlawn
(6) Brooklyn Bridge (nights 125th St) - Pelham
(7) Times Sq - Flushing
<6> and <7> survive.
BMT
- close Broad St - Chauncey St and the Myrtle Av Line
- make permanent the abandonment of Stillwell Avenue
- close the Sea Beach Line
- close the Franklin Shuttle
- abandon the Brighton Express
- close the Manny B and no more Broadway Express
(J) all times Broadway Junction - Jamaica
(L) all times 8th Av - Canarsie
(Q) all times 57th St - Brighton Beach local
(R) all times Continental - 95th local
(W) all times Astoria - Bay Parkway local
IND
- close 6th Av Express and Manny B
- abandon everything East of Euclid
(A) 207th - 8th Av express (off-peak local) - Fulton St local - Euclid
(C) 168th - 8th Av local - WTC peak only
(D) 205th - 6th Av local - 2nd Av
(E) Jamaica - Queens Express (nights local) - 8th Av local - WTC
(F) Hillside - Queens Express (nights local) - 63rd St - 6th Av local - Av X
(G) Continental - Queens Local - Crosstown - Smith/9th
Now how's that for money-saving but downright stupid? Don't e-mail Paturkey with this...
>>"- close 145/Lenox and 148/Lenox
- close Dyre Line and replace with a bus shuttle"<<
Please tell me your joking about these cuts you would plan on doing if you had to do so.
>>"Now how's that for money-saving but downright stupid? Don't e-mail Paturkey with this..."<<
Yeah, he just might take that into consideration. Well first off, if you close lines that have good ridership, its the 1970's and 1980's all over again [look what happened to Jamaica when the el closed in 1977 and then was cut back]. It won't be THAT drastic........
I've seen a number of these subtalker service cut proposals. I must say that you guys have some STRANGE ideas about cutting service. Let's clear up a few things:
1. We're talking about service cuts, not entire budget re-writing. Some of these plans are quite ridiculous.
2. Everyone here seems to have this illusion that reducing express service automatically reduces costs. No expresses, less trains. I saw one proposal that had the "A" running express only from 168th to Chambers, and then C trains would run from the WTC station. THIS INCREASES COSTS!!!!!!!! Now, you'll need about 20 A locals from brooklyn and still need the 6-7 C trains on CPW. That's an increase in the number of tph by 6!
3. Closing lines is not an option.
4. Closing lines AT NIGHT is not an option
5. Closing lines AT THE HEIGHT OF RUSH HOUR is not an option.
Some of these ideas seem to be solely based on some ill-concieved notion that express service is the main reason why there are budget gaps, and that by running these trains local, we will have cleaned up the mess.
Excuse me? You seem not to understand the MTA and its politics.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNTOUCHABLE! Sometimes, the MTA may be made to backpedal under political pressure, but I assure you that nothing is off-limits. The magnitude of this budget crunch, combined with the fact that the city and state are both skating on fiscal thin ice, means that cutting rush-hour service during rush hour IS on the table. Closing lines at night and on weekends are a FAVORED option because few people truly pay attention to service at those times. I could increase the headway on the 1 train from every three to every four minutes during rush hour and although people will notice the crowding, most won't notice that FIVE trains are still in the yard.
This fiscal crisis is pretty serious. It's more than operating costs. It's the capital program, the cost sharing between federal and local sources is now 60/40 max, the city is strapped for cash and is looking to pull money out of the MTA, and the state is strapped and must raise money in a fashion that won't alienate their strongest supporters. The public information now released makes me understand just how serious this crunch is and it annoys me that someone knew how bad it was getting and decided to play it off as not so important.
I do agree with you on the express issue. Interlining (example: replacing the V with the J during certain hours) may be more effective than swinging the axe to express trains. Cuts ARE supposed to hurt if you're doing them correctly, though.
I am not saying that service cannot be cut. But everyone here is planning these bare bones systems, where entire lines will be abandoned, and weekend service becomes a huge joke. Fact is that weekend service on NYCT is much higher than some cities weekday service. But people are already finding ways to reduce weekend service so that every train line has one train line on 15 minute headways. Some people have proposed slashing service by as much as 33% in some places, and then running the express train local to boot.
I believe that service cuts are coming. But subtalkers seem to believe that NYCT armageddon is coming.
The end is near...but not for trains. It's the bus system that will get hit hard. I would not be surprised if NYCT dumped (either eliminate or contract out) the entire express bus system in the next five to ten years. Outerborough local bus services (except Staten Island) will probably get hit hard too.
You can only hit the subways so hard because no matter what their load factor is outside of Manhattan, most trunks carry a significant amount of traffic in Manhattan, even on Sundays. Possible cuts could include less frequent service before noon and after 9PM. It would be easy to turn Dyre Avenue into a shuttle. You could also turn the White Plains spur into a shuttle as well as Utica Avenue-New Lots Avenue. Flatbush Avenue carries plenty of traffic to its end. Coordinated shuttle trains could save a significant amount of money without causing too much pain. When the shuttles AREN'T synchronized, this is when people get REAL grumpy.
You'll notice that the G is the only subway line that doesn't enter Manhattan. This is why the G can (and does) get mistreated by the MTA. Don't be surprised to see a 4 car OPTO G train if the fare is ANYTHING less than $2.
(The public information now released makes me understand just how serious this crunch is and it annoys me that someone knew how bad it was getting and decided to play it off as not so important.)
Annoys? I've been sick about this for three years. I saw it coming when things were flush, and the politicos were sell up out to just about everyone assuming that more money would always come in (or not caring if it didn't). I was sick about all the debt in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan, knowing that East Side Access and Second Avenue would be coming AFTERWARD. And not just me. The business community, the TWU, the Straphangers, EVERYONE who know what was coming.
Then, after the disaster, I thought they'd fess up. Instead, they put us even deeper in the hole to get through this state election, with all the incumbents still safe in their non-jobs. There are some, Ron-In-Bayside for one, who think I've gone round the bend with my attitude toward the state legislature, Bruno, Silver and Pataki. We'll see.
"And not just me. The business community, the TWU, the Straphangers, EVERYONE who know what was coming."
If I understand their press releases correctly, the Straphangers and the TWU STILL aren't admitting that there is any particularly serious shortfall in MTA revenues.
The public's voting habits deserve a lot of blame too. Who gets elected, the candidate who says that we need to raise taxes and cut expenses to break even, or the candidate who says we can reduce taxes and still have all those wonderful services at the same time?
As I said before, the Democrats are the party of high taxes and high spending, while the Republicans are the party of low taxes and high spending. Who's doing better?
The Democrats are the party of Pay as you go and the Republicans are the party of buy now, pay later regardless of the intrest payments. Intrest indebtedness is good in the Republican view because it makes the evil government beholden to financiers who are the Republicans' masters This is why the economy is in the toilet, Deficits are coming and they will be even bigger than reagan's. Enjoy your $600 tax cut.
Don't be surprised to see a 4 car OPTO G train if the fare is ANYTHING less than $2.
We already have that...
I think he means at all times.
Yeah, I kinda figured that.... But whatever, it's all good.
Next, the TA will cut up a few more sets of R-68's so that we can have 2 car trains! YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!
Daytime weekend fill factor on the brighton is just as crowed as weekday except for the peak of the rush hour.
There overnight q service fills 65-75% of the seets as late as 3 am. I know becasue I take it. The service would improve if the cut the headways utilizing OPTO which would also cut costs. I much rather stand then wait for a train on the platform. If the headway is increased I would probably left standing anyway.
The mta should focus its capitol budget making stations ADA complient. This has two positive bennifits
1) they can eliinate duplicate bus service. People may complain at first but it is alot quicker to take a the n/r/w/q from 34th street to 14th street then take the bus.
2)once all stations are ADA complient (probably never) they can elimninate access a ride which is very expensive and actually quit useless at times to the people who use it. It is hard to get an appointment and the cars/vans often don't even show up
Opto overnights and weekends is not the end of the world. I would agree that something needs to be done to aid the train operator/ maybe put operations controls on both sides of the cab.
Shorter trains are much better then longer waits
Of course, simply shifting an express to the local track costs money, but I don't think that's what anyone's suggested.
What's been proposed is, essentially, keeping the existing local service in place and eliminating the express service.
Your example is flawed. The A doesn't run 20 tph even during rush hour, and I don't think anyone suggested removing rush hour express service. On weekends, the A runs (IIRC) 8 tph and the C 6 tph. Running 8 tph on the local track in Brooklyn (which adds 12 minutes to the round trip running time) costs less than running 6 tph on the local track plus 8 tph on the express track.
Your example is flawed. The A doesn't run 20 tph even during rush hour, and I don't think anyone suggested removing rush hour express service. On weekends, the A runs (IIRC) 8 tph and the C 6 tph. Running 8 tph on the local track in Brooklyn (which adds 12 minutes to the round trip running time) costs less than running 6 tph on the local track plus 8 tph on the express track.
I used an example that someone actually gave that stated we should cut Fulton express service all times.
It seems a lot of people use the express on Fulton, and it's the local that is hardly used. I wonder if they could keep the express and have people use the B25 for local service (perhaps add limited stop service which would stop at all the stations and extend it to Euclid), instead of making all the Express riders stop at stations hardly any of them use.
I'm amazed at how brutal some of the people here have been with these ideas of service cuts! This is the total opposite of what I expected when this thread started! The railfans here have some really severe ideas of getting a bare-bones system, worse than I ever imagined the MTA itself doing!
There aren't so few local passengers that sending them on buses would be more efficient.
Maybe you're forgetting that the transfer points to the Franklin shuttle and to the LIRR are local stations.
Even on weekends, there needs to be local service. A few Sundays ago, I was on a C that was sent express from Hoyt to Utica due to a stalled train at Kingston-Throop. I don't know how many got off at Hoyt and waited for the next train, but at least 100 people crossed over at Utica to backtrack.
(I'm a little surprised you'd even make such a suggestion.)
November 21st, 2002
On this date in...
1964...Opening day for the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge - the nation's longest suspension bridge. For 50 cents, drivers can now travel between Brooklyn and Staten Island. The bridge marks the end of New York's golden age of bridge-building, but its biggest impact is in turning sleepy Staten Island into a suburban development.
CORRECTED 38 years old
November 21st, 2002
On this date in...
1964...Opening day for the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge - the nation's longest suspension bridge. For 50 cents, drivers can now travel between Brooklyn and Staten Island. The bridge marks the end of New York's golden age of bridge-building, but its biggest impact is in turning sleepy Staten Island into a suburban development.
And its opening caused major traffic jams because of all the sightseers.
Uh, 50 years ago would be 1952...
1964 was 38 years ago,
-Larry
already corrected
You me by 50 21 seconds!
I'm doing too many things at once today. You can yell at me for posting the W'chster bus cut item over here instead of BUStalk 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
You beat me by 50 21 seconds!
lol
NOT! It can't be! I'm only 54, and it wasn't there back then!
Elias
It was a typo that I have corrected.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, Your aging me. My high school freshman class had to march in the parade for that thing. It was only one level then. Peace
Only the upper level opened originally. The lower level was opened in 1969. AFAIK the lower level was built along with the rest of the bridge and "roughed in", then finished and opened. This is in contrast to the GWB, whose lower level was added piece by piece from connectors that were put in when the bridge was first built.
If I recall correctly, they kept the St. George - 69th Street ferry operating another week, and luckily so. So many sightseers driving over the bridge caused jams. A friend and I went to the S.I. Plaza to see President Johnson, so I thought, but the friend was more interested in spotting "Happy" Rockefellar. Later, according to one account, at the Brooklyn ceremony, Robert Moses could not remember the name of his chief engineer, Othmar Amann.
We can thank Robert Moses for the absence of rail tracks on the VZ Bridge. He opposed any rail on the VZ, just like he opposed a rail link to Idlewild (now JFK) Airport on the original Van Wyck Expressway around 1950. Just think...if TBTA and NYCTA were one family, as they are now, the 4th Avenue subway could have been extended over the bridge and linked to the SIRT. Would have made a bid difference in the volumes of express buses from SI to Manhattan.
Geez, you sure make me feel old posting this!
I was on the roadway, at almost 14 years old, when the governor cut the ribbon on the Verrazano!!!
I had just turned eight when that bridge opened. We drove across it the following summer while visiting the city. Two years later, we crossed it once again en route to JFK to meet my cousin. Haven't been on it since.
A poster on the Strappie board asked:
"This morning I noticed that there was work being done at the station does anyone have any information about this? It looked like they were putting new tiles on the wall. Are they thinking of reopening the station again? And is it necessary to reopen? "
Does anyone have any insight as to what might be going on at Worth St?
Could they be cleaning it up for some use of some kind?
Worth St. was closed when Brooklyn Bridge station was lengthened and shifted to the north. I doubt it's going to reopen.
I severely doubt it would reopen also, but why would they be cleaning or putting up new tiles? I wonder what they are doing there.
Can anyone confirm that they are actually doing work on the walls - I won't be over that way in a while.
That is why I posted the question.
Since my company moved ot Jersey City earlier this year, I don't get to downtown Manahttan too often.
I know they won't reopen the station but the bit about new tiles aroused my curiosity.
Maybe those brave entrepreneurs decided to open their Subway Bar there instead of 18th Street.
I think the person who witnessed the work did not properly recognize what was really being done. Worth St is NOT re-opening.
I beleive there was a post on the board a couple of week ago that said part of Worth Street's platform was going to be used as a storage facility. If so, that's probably what the work the Strappie poster saw was involved with.
There seems to be an huge increase in these storage areas - on the ends of platforms, just off the ends of platforms, and abandoned sections of platforms, just to name a few.
What needs to be stored in all these storage facilities that can't be built fast enough?
--Mark
Actually I was thinking the same thing! Even on the elevated structures. They are everywhere both underground and in the subway. WHat the hell are all those storage facilites for?
Strappie?
Slang for the people who post at the NYPIRG Straphangers.org message board. It's on the site run by Gene Russianoff's group.
Ah. morons.
Yea, kind of like Gene Wilder's description of the people of Rock Ridge in Blazing Saddles I gues...
'Scuse me while I whip this out.
One of the funniest movies ever made.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
oops wrong "talk" sorry.
Thanks for the link just the same my friend !
On November 20, 1978, the Orange Line made its debut with the opening of the Minnesota Ave, Deanwood, Cheverly, Landover and New Carrollton stations. This also marks the inclusion of Prince George's County Maryland into the system of jurisdictions w/ stations in operation. Now the Blue Line was open from National Airport to Stadium/Armory and the Orange Line from New Carrollton to Rosslyn. However, for simplicity reasons, all trains run from New Carrollton to National Airport. On a different note, the Red Line was open from Silver Spring to Dupont Circle at this time. The Yellow & Green Lines were not in operation yet.
As I ride through the "yard" between 137 and 145 each day on the 1 train, a few quesitons come to mind:
1)I'm assuming that "yard" was the only one they had when the line opened in 1904, so was it used for repair work? Not that I know much about how modern shops are designed, but I would think that that location is lacking in just about anything you could mention needed for repair work on trains. Room to work, alone seems to be a problem. Never mind storage of parts and tools. So, where was repair work done back in the early years?
2) How did the first trains get on to the line? That line would appear to be (and have been then) isolated, not to mention completely underground. My only guess was they cars were trucked or pulled from a railroad to some type of pit where they could be lowered onto the tracks.
Anyone have any information on these and any other problems unique to begining a subway line in Manhattan in 1904?
Piggo
When the IRT first opened, the yard was at Lenox. There was trackage from there to the original line in 1904. The Lenox line didn't open until later. But trains were able to use the line to and from the Lenox yard. Later on when the IRT made its way to 242 St, a yard was built at 240 St. At 137 the yard there was used for getting bad trains off of the main line and doing simple repairs. New cars being delivered to Lenox yard was carried by barge.
Thanks.
The under ground yard at 137th on the 1/9 was a turn around point for many years ... this was before Skip Stop was invented.
This site, FAQ, has a whole section on the early IRT ... just thought I would give you some help by "telling you where to go" < g >
According to Joe Cunningham's book, the original composite IRT cars were delivered unfinished to the 129th St. shops of the 2nd Ave elevated, where their mechanical components were installed. Since the elevated portion of the Contract I IRT was actually open before the subway (using el service via 3rd Ave), movement to the original IRT line was easy.
There are many shops and yards which serviced the elevated lines in Manhattan which are now long gone, including the 129th St and 99th St yards for the 2 east side els, and the 155th St. shops for the 9th/6th Ave. el.
Ah yes, that's a nice book published in 1997.
A lot of nice photos & text. Also for pure detail, I also have Ed Davis's "They Moved Millions". Photos aren't the greatest, but it's chock full of detail. A primer on R types, Munis, Lo-Vs, etc.
I learned a lot from that book:
1. The IRT had all-steel subway cars in service from Day #1. I thought the Hi-V cars were of later origin.
2. The Composites were pretty much gone from the subway within 2 years of opening. Despite their careful design, they had a pretty sad mechanical record.
3. The Composite cars spent 90% of their lives as el cars, after a few modifications.
BTW, does anyone know when the last Composite el car made it's last run?
Ed Davis in "They Moved Millions" said:
"... 1916 ... they were transfered to the Manhattan (elevated) Division ... they were found to be overweight for the structures ... the Interborough fabricated, in it's own shops, replacement trucks ... after their retirement ... these light weight trucks were installed on the BMT Q's ..."
So, Ed doesn't say exactly when, but this should narrow it down.
1. The IRT had all-steel subway cars in service from Day #1. I thought the Hi-V cars were of later origin.
Chris: There were a certain number (about 70 or so) Gibbs Hi-V's in service on openning day. They were mixed in trains with composites.
2. The Composites were pretty much gone from the subway within 2 years of opening. Despite their careful design, they had a pretty sad mechanical record
On Page 16 of his book Ed states that the Composites were removed from the subway in 1916. This could only be done becaue a large order of HI-V trailers from Pullman was arriving. The Composites were then transfered to the 2nd and 3rd Avenue Els to provide express service.
BTW, does anyone know when the last Composite el car made it's last run?
April 28,1950
Larry,RedbirdR33
The year service to South Ferry ceased?
-Stef
The year service to South Ferry ceased?
-Stef
Stef: Service on the 3rd Avenue El between Chatham Square and South Ferry ceased on December 23, 1950. Some Christmas for railfans.
Best Wishes
Larry, RedbirdR33
Brian Cudahy states in Under the Sidewalks of New York that there were 103 Hi-Vs on the property on Day One. Perhaps 3352 was one of them.
What is the top speed reached in this tunnel? I have been on trains going either east or west that really seemed to fly. Is this the fastest stretch of track in the system?
It's been said that a wheelchair could reach 60 on that stretch of track. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, now, they do. I can remember when not too long ago there were nothing but timers in those tubes and trains had too creep underneath the East River in both directions. It was definitely one of the slowest of the tunnel crossings.
When I worked vacation relief a while back one pick on the R, I remember working with a train operator who once got the train (which was an R46) going up to 53mph northbound between Lexington Avenue and Queens Plaza. Going southbound was significantly less, about maybe 40mph. That might have been due to another train, the N, in front of us.
Those timers are set for 50 MPH (and will clear at 60+). I've had one T/O in a 32 hit 64. 46's the highest Ive seen was close to your figure, 50-55. However the TA trains their employees to operate at a significantly slower speed.
Going southbound, you have timers up into the 11th St cut because you have the switch at the 11th St cut (and if you overrun that signal split switch and Jay Street is your T/O's next stop). Even with no train in front, you can't build up any significant speed (although 50 isn't totally out of the picture) until you pass them, and by then its too late to start shooting for 55+.
On what system? The BMT/IND? If you mean the entire system, I have to believe that the express stretches on the west side IRT between 72nd and Times Square and the IND CPW express between 59th and 125th are as fast if not faster.
If you can, get yourself a view of a speedometer on those stretches. You'll barely top 40 on the CPW nowadays and while you may do mid-40s on Broadway, you're pretty much guaranteed to hit 50 in the BMT 60th St. tunnel.
Dan
Typical speeds on the SB IRT express approaching the timer at 50th are in the upper 40's, and I've seen 50 on a Redbird.
I have seen 45 MPH on the brighton express between Newkirk AVE and Kings Highway. Occasionally the advertising display will be missing leaving little holes that you can see the speedometer
"I have to believe that the express stretches on the west side IRT between 72nd and Times Square and the IND CPW express between 59th and 125th are as fast if not faster."
I've recently timed the 2/3 from 14th to 96th several times. It has repeatedly done that run in 10 minutes (24 mph including 3 fairly long stops). That may be the system-wide max for a multi-mile stretch (not sure about the Rockaway run, but I doubt CPW or QB is as fast).
But the N/R probably beats the 2/3 for peak speed. I only once got to see a speedometer on the 2/3, and it never really exceeded 40.
The Rockaway run is not as fast as you'd think. I've ridden it a few times and I don't think we were going faster than 35.
If you had a R44, its understandable since they seem like they freeze at 25-30mph longer than all other models but if you had a R38, it should have easily cracked 40mph. Now if you have a R32 A [which is rare] or a R32/R38 mix with R32's leading, they should hit 45-50 mph.
BTW, it seems like the GE R32's start up faster than MK R32's but does one go faster thamn the other or do they have the same top speed. The R32 GE's should be the lead cars, IMO.
Now if you have a R32 A [which is rare]
I've noticed lately there are a lot more 32's popping up on the A lately.
I've been on it numerous times where the speedometer eclipsed 60. Fastest I remember is 67 (sometime last year), but from older posts some claim that when the speeds get that high, the actual mph may be inaccurate.
=)
That was a plan to slow subway trains to 20MPH after the willy B. collision. Thank god that never happened. Can you imagine that?
If you want speed go down to philly.
I agree. The El in Philly regularly tops 50 mph between stations. It seems like the fastest stretches are Spring Garden-Girard, and near Somerset...I think the stations on the Frankford el are further apart than the stations on Market Street.
The El in Philly regularly tops 50 mph between stations.
The SubTalk SEPTA trip participants of a couple years ago saw the speedometer of the Ridge Ave train on the Broad Street Subway register 63 mph.
That's good for the Broad St. Line. I rode the "el" today and it was slowww. Sigle tracking through center city caused much of the delay.
As we headed east before 34th St. and were stopped, the operator said,
"We have a westbound train operating on our track just ahead, as soon as he clears, we will proceed"
Chuck Greene
67???????? That's fast!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
The fastest speeds I've felt have been on the 14 St Tunnel. It's all the more dramatic when your ears pop.
Well, it seems my ears pop everytime I go through the 60 St Tunnel.
I agree about the 14th Street line tube run. If the T/O knows how to ride the Time signals (a la Toronto for example) you can really get a roaring fast ride!
Man, I love when trains fly through that tunnel, especially on a R68 N or W. I think it hit 50 and I thought it was going to create extreme sparks ;-). Ride the L via the North 7 St tunnel btw Bedford & 1 Av. It seems like the 4 train tunnel has gotten slower Brooklyn bound b/c it would routinely hit 45[even Redbirds] and recently, it went no more than 30-35 and there were no GO's/track work.
The Rt 100 train between Norristown and 69th is one fast ride. The speedometer is in plain view, and I've seen it top well over 65 mph several times. It's got amazing acceleration and braking.
As much as people gripe about the Norristown cars, you have to admit they run pretty darn good! 65 mph feels really good on that line, you are flying....
Chuck Greene
I am certainly not one of the gripers...I love those cars. They perform better than any rail vehicle ive ever been on.
When the cars were first introduced, they had "teething problems, but I'm sure that's all been resolved in the years gone by. I remember one of the big things was leaking water in a heavy rain storm. I like the way the operators are qualified for both that Norristown line and the 101 & 102 trolleys. I rode the Media 101 yesterday and we were single tracking part of the way over the normal double tracked section because of tree trimming. When we entered the "block", the operator had to sign a sheet that the block man gave to him? Is that to prove that you were there in case of a mishap? If I ever drove for SEPTA, I'd pick on those lines, they look like fun!
Chuck Greene
When the cars were first introduced, they had "teething problems, but I'm sure that's all been resolved in the years gone by.
I've ridden the new cars a half dozen times, after their "break in" period, and have a very favorable opinion.
The Strafford and Bullet cars are gone but not forgotten.
As always, thanks for your reply and the great pictures!!
Chuck Greene
63mph in a Slant soutbound and I swear the tripper went down after the anti-climber passed over it. I mean we were going to stop hard if that signal didn't clear, there was nothing you could do about it, you didn't even see it turn yellow, we passed it at red (point of view from the storm door).
I do not play with those like that. I was operating through there today, and the posted GT speed is 50 Queensbound; 45 Mahnattan bound. When you approach that, you stop seeing the yellow/S's change in front of you, and for about a second, you're approaching a red, then it clears. You can even pass 50, and towards the bottom the last timer is blocked by the ceiling, but so far, I have always seen cleared. That is too scary for me, because they could slow it down, or it not be working properly, or even, you didn't notice the S wasn't illuminated. Then what could you say-- yo went over the speed limit, didn't allow the yellows to clear in front of you as the bulletins and TSS's have been saying, and basically didn't have the train "under control". I usually hold a little brake just in case, and have still been making 54-55 this past week. Seeing "60" in the meter is not worth the trouble (a TSS once was even encouraging me to try to reach that, and tried as well, but only reached about 58).
The 14th St. tube is always like that, as it is a one-shot system, and without even the lunar whites! (Also posted at GT 50, both ways)
So if you go close to 50, you hardly see the reds clear at all. You have to be going in the 30's or less to have the reds clear a safe distance in front of you. It was interesting working that, as that is the only place you can approach reds like that, but they started acting funny the last time I was over there, and were catching people. Plus you have to make sure your leader is not too close in front of you. And what if a track circuit develops, or supervision decides to crack down and fixes one so it won't clear (like they do elsewhere to see if people will key by without authorization). You also can't take chances with the R-143, which records everything.
Two fastest speeds reached in the 60th Street tube on trains that I had worked was 63 MPH on an "N" with R-68As, and 61 also on a train of R-68As, while working an RDO a few weeks ago on the "W".
Here is an interesting article on "CONEY ISLAND IN WINTER" from th NY Times...
.... from 1882!
Larry, WOW impressive !
It's amazing what a different place it was, when they talk about the trip between Coney Island and Brooklyn, the "little places" like Sheepshead Bay, Gravesend and Parkville.
Would like to have seen it then myself.
-Larry
I know this location is somewhat remote, but I've been riding the line for about two years now and this has always bothered me.
After Jamaica, eastbound Long Beach and Far Rockaway LIRR trains use the "Archer Avenue Underjump" (my term) and head south toward Valley Stream, where they diverge. The first stop after Jamaica is Locust Manor. The line is partially elevated and partially situated on a raised dirt berm.
Approximately 1/4 mile east of the Underjump there are two turnouts that proceed for a very short distance and then abruptly end. Both turnouts still have short stretches of rail on them that obviously once merged with the main tracks in both directions. As far as I can tell, the turnouts were never third-railed. They are oriented in such a way that they permitted trains using them to merge with the main tracks.
I know that these turnouts were probably used for freight but there is no trace of any businesses that would have used them.
Does anyone have any info on this?
Thanks.
Yes, those were freight sidings and I remember them in use.
They are in the general area where the Archer Avenue subway was to connect, but the connections never broke the street surface.
If I'm looking at the same thing on these track maps I have, one was for the Van Siclen lumber yard and the other was for the Alexander Piercey Lumber yard. The were only connected to the Far Rockaway (actually Atlantic) branch in one direction each. The first diverging to the northeast and the second coming in from the southwest (If you assume that the line itself is actually east/west at this locatation - which it probably isn't).
You're right, the line at this point runs southeast, not east.
From your descriptions, I think you hit the nail on the head. Nice work! However, from my perspective at the railfan window (where else), the turnouts don't diverge, they both merge from outside the line into the line. It is possible that there were switches at that location at one time that would permit a Jamaica-bound freight train to switch, cross over the southbound track and use the turnout. Same would go for the other side.
Can I see that track map online anywhere?
I've previously expressed my basic opposition to trying to run a Long Island Rail Road service on subway tracks (particularly the Atlantic Branch to Cranbury thing) but it occurs to me that it might be feasible to do something if we recast it in a different way.
The City of New York owns the Atlantic Branch west of Jamaica. It could operate the branch as part of the subway system, instead of looking at it the other way around.
So suppose we did this: have the IND system "take over" the Atlantic Branch by conencting it to the Cranbury Street tunnel. The fare would be the same as the rest of the system, including using unlimited MetroCards.
Now what could a service pattern look like?
Move the current "C" service from the Cranbury Street Tunnel to the Houston Street Line. The flyover switching is already available to do this. North of Jay Street switch it back to the Fulton Line to provide Fulton Local service as at present.
The new service would operate in the Cranbury tunnel and then into the Atlantic Line, making stops only at Nostrand Avenue, East New York, possibly reopen Woodhaven, next Jamaica. But then we could use this new line as the basis for eastward Queens expansion, to St. Albans and Queens Village. This seems like a much better alternative for expanding the subway system than trying to hook up to the overburdened Queens Blvd and pokey-slow Jamaica Lines, as previously planned. It could establish teh feasibility of a new level of express service, faster than previous, but not so limited stop as commuter railroads.
It would also free capacity on the IRT Brooklyn Line, by removing the LIRR commuters which lower conditions west of Atlantic Avenue from sardine to anchovy.
The line would not use any current subway capacity which could not be rerouted.
The negatives? It would louse up Larry Littlefield's idea (which I'm in favor of) to hook up the York Street tunnel with the BMT Southern Division. However, this idea is stop-gap anyway, but could not take nearly the entire Southern Division traffic, if push came to shove.
And it would also be of benefit to LIRR commuters, at the same time as providing a new service to City riders. If we're that dog-in-the-manger about it, maybe we should forget about any progress.
"Move the current "C" service from the Cranbury Street Tunnel to the Houston Street Line. The flyover switching is already available to do this. North of Jay Street switch it back to the Fulton Line to provide Fulton Local service as at present."
Actually, the Supershuttle would add to the load of 8th Ave trains, so there is no need to cause delays by switching trains from Houton St. onto the 8th Ave line. Instead, run the V 6th Ave-Rutgers-Euclid local, and make the C run CPW local - 8th Ave local - Cranberry tunnel - Lefferts express, and have the Super Shuttle be additional 8th Ave express service replacing the Lefferts service that is now the C local on 8th Ave.
Good idea with 2 reasons it won't fly:
- No longer interesting to Brookfield, since the Supershuttle stops at Bway Nassau, which is a ways from the WFC.
- Still costs $1 billion plus for the connections needed in Brooklyn.
Good idea with 2 reasons it won't fly:
- No longer interesting to Brookfield, since the Supershuttle stops at Bway Nassau, which is a ways from the WFC.
I wasn't proposing it on the basis of whether it's good for Brookfield.
- Still costs $1 billion plus for the connections needed in Brooklyn.
$1B is a bargain considering the capacity it could add to the system.
That is the only plan for the Cranberry "takeover" that sounds reasonable. It actually is a subway takeover of the LIRR, and I believe the majority of LIRR that use the Brooklyn line do transfer to the subway anyway, so it makes no difference if they transfer at Jamaica or at Atlantic Ave. The key to it being beneficial to the subway system also would be if it allowed for expansion into Queens where the subway is badly needed.
So I would agree that it would be a good idea only if the fare would remain the "subway fare" ($1.50 or whatever it will become), and that it would not make the Fulton subway a nightmare for Brooklyn and Rockaway riders, the A has to be able to go through the tunnel, hopefully remaining an express (I don't know how many TPH the Cranberry tube can handle. Is there room for the extra route to go through?
I don't see how it works without connecting the Fulton Local tracks up to the F line west of Hoyt-Schemerhorn. Otherwise you'd have to squeeze the A, C, and Jamaica line into one line from Hoyt to Jay. And who says that LIRR rides would be satisfied with a ten minute wait for the train anyway? They'd want more Cranberry capacity eventually.
If you believe that the Manhattan Bridge is forever fixed, or that it can only be replaced by a new tunnel anyway, then the move it to hook the Atlantic Branch up to the Montigue Tunnel, not the Cranberry Tunnel. Twelve trains per hours is plenty for city residents on that line, leaving 18 plus for the LIRR. With some modifications at Chambers, it could run up the Nassau Line to its own terminal on the east side of Chambers.
I really don't think it solves the Downtown Alliance's issues if subway riders could ride for the same fare as on the subway. They'd want an "upscale" line -- double the fare, but free transfer from the railroad. That's what's behind a lot of that -- than and the fact that a super subway could pull into Jamaica at the LIRR level empty, while LIRR riders now have to pack onto already crowded trains at Flatbush and Penn. You'd need an exit swipe east of Downtown Brooklyn to make that separation work.
You still have the issue of the bridge. But at least if a new tunnel is required you could build it further uptown, away from crowded lower Manhattan.
If you believe that the Manhattan Bridge is forever fixed, or that it can only be replaced by a new tunnel anyway, then the move it to hook the Atlantic Branch up to the Montigue Tunnel, not the Cranberry Tunnel. Twelve trains per hours is plenty for city residents on that line, leaving 18 plus for the LIRR. With some modifications at Chambers, it could run up the Nassau Line to its own terminal on the east side of Chambers.
Again I am reluctant to give over any subway infastructure over to the LIRR, but why are they so bent on the Cranberry tube? The Montague tunnel seems to have more capacity, and it wouldn't be quite as devastating to the subway system as the Cranberry takeover. (The only thing I like about the whole Cranberry plan is the Rutgers connection - if only they could do that and leave the LIRR out or Cranberry also) The problems with the Montague LIRR connection are that the extra capacity on the Nassau line is north of Chambers, not south. It would make the J and M an even more useless line as it would be banished to end at Chambers all times. Also what would happen to the R - the bridge? The Broadway line south of Canal would also become a very little used line. ANd not to mention the ultimate disaster - if the MB ever had problems again.
Basically the LIRR should built it's own tunnel, and the subway stay as it is.
I am no expert on LIRR cars, but last time I checked, the M7 is 85 feet long and 10 feet 6 inches wide. It will not fit into the car clearance envelope provided in NYCTA tunnels. Extensive/expensive modifications would have to be made, perhaps even easing some of our curves.
We're getting off track here. I wasn't talking giving over any subway infrastructure, I was talking about the subway taking over the Atlantic Line which would both service LIRR commuters (the same way the subway system does now) as well as providing new express service from downtown to southeastern queens--something which really doesn't exist now, except for the very limited area around Liberty Avenue.
This line could then provide an attractive service for extensions to St. Albans, Springfield Gardens and Queens Village. This is a win-win situation. The former plan, to extend J service (slow) to St. Albans and Springfield Gardens and E service (already at capacity) to Queens Village are no longer viable.
Sorry, I should have quoted the person I was responding to.
I have no problem with your proposal that TA takes over Atlantic Branch west of Jamaica. But I had just read for the umpteenth time the suggestion that the LIRR should operate through the Cranberry Street Tube, which is physically impossible at this time; so it is a no-brainer if a politician wants to oppose this connection.
Right, and I suggested running this subway "Super-shuttle" through the Montigue Tunnel instead of the Cranberry, not having the LIRR take over the Montigue. The R would also use the Montigue and go via the Broadway line -- a second Broadway local would turn at Whitehall. The super-shuttle would travel via Nassau Street, to a separate terminal on the east side of Chambers. That puts 12 Rs and up to 18 super shuttles in the tunnel.
That leaves room for 12 Broadway Brooklyn trains up to remain on the Nassau Loop, terminating at Broad and relaying beyond. More than enough -- I'd say go with six. What about the additional Broadway Brooklyn trains at rush hour? You know my answer. The 6th Avenue Local. Instead of 10 Rs and 10 Vs on Queens Blvd, you'd have 12 Rs and the J/Z.
The other piece, which may have confused you, is that I think Long Island would insist on a segregated ride, so the super-shuttle would have to arrive on the LIRR level at Jamaica and be a double fare for city residents (with an outswipe for the second fare PM).
Now before Paul and Pete get all bent out of shape take note -- you are not typical suburbanites. The typical suburban attitude is best expressed by those facing the loss of express buses from Co Op City -- "I'd be scared to ride the subway with those scuzzy people!" Subway in Manhattan is one thing, subway in Jamaican and East Brooklyn another.
Anyway, with the "super-shuttle" dead ending in tracks J1 and J3 north of Chambers, it is possible that it could become the "express" service on Second Avenue then run over to Grand Central for a MetroNorth service as well. That would make the Second Avenue Subway more likely.
I'm sorry, I understood your post to mean LIRR takeover. You said something about leaving 18 trains for the LIRR or something, and i misunderstood. My mistake.
That leaves room for 12 Broadway Brooklyn trains up to remain on the Nassau Loop, terminating at Broad and relaying beyond. More than enough -- I'd say go with six. What about the additional Broadway Brooklyn trains at rush hour? You know my answer. The 6th Avenue Local. Instead of 10 Rs and 10 Vs on Queens Blvd, you'd have 12 Rs and the J/Z.
As for that, I really like that idea!
There are currently 20 tph over the Williamsburg Bridge 12 J/Z's and 8 M's. If the J/Z's get routed bach to Queens via the Chrystie St connection, then there will be 12-R's and 12 J/Z's on the QB local track. That's 24 trains to be turned around at Continental. If they are capable of doing it, then why was the G truncated at Court Sq?
Because Gs merge at Queens Plaza...can't merge Gs in rush hour unless they "chase" locals VERY closely. This would require tight coordination...not NYCT's forte.
If the Bridge is ever finally declared unfit for subway service, then I would say extend the LIRR down the middle (the trackways on the outside would become the new roadways), and convert the Canal station to a new terminal, and also utilize the Nassau Loop, connect J4 in the station to R2 south of the station (similar to what they are doing at Canal now) so the LIRR could have another terminal at the current east (Queensbound) platform and the subway would only have the western platform. Therefore you would have a total of 4 terminal tracks in lower Manhattan.
That, short of a totally whole new ROW for the LIRR (East River bridge or tunnel or using the 2nd Ave branch from midtown), is the only sensible way to bring the LIRR into lower Manhattan by taking over NYCT ROW.
The thing is though, if the bridge was declared unfit for subway traffic, it would also be unfit for LIRR service.
Not necessarily. Not only would having the track in the middle solve the torsion problem, giving it more life, but wouldn't LIRR traffic be less than the three subway services running across there now?
How about dusting off some of the IND Second system plans and build the tunnel from Second Ave. station on the F line to the South 4th St. shell station and build a dedicated LIRR line from 63rd St. in NYC to Lower Manhattan? There need to be a new connection between Brooklyn and Manhattan, because the Manhattan Bridge cannot continue to support rail and road traffic much longer. Suspension bridges are not the proper design for rail traffic, so save the cash and build tunnels - and get the LIRR's 63rd St. connection into use, as it is already there collecting dust.
and get the LIRR's 63rd St. connection into use, as it is already there collecting dust.
It will be used soon when they finish the East Side access project to get the LIRR into Grand Central.
I do agree though. Instead of all the money they spent on the Manhattan Bridge in the last two decades, they should have built a tunnel for the subway instead.
I can't see using the Montague Street Tunnel. First (and making your assumption that the whole Manhattan Bridge will be fixed forever) four tracks isn't enough for the entire BMT Southern Division. Second, there is excess capacity, right now, on the IND Lines to Brooklyn. Unless you imagine some need for 30TPH to the City on the Smith-Coney Island Line, there will always be excess capacity. And third, the Montague Street tunnel feeds all the BMT's downtown capacity, both to Broadway and Nassau Street. Without it, there is no downtown service for most of southern Brooklyn.
(I can't see using the Montague Street Tunnel. First (and making your assumption that the whole Manhattan Bridge will be fixed forever) four tracks isn't enough for the entire BMT Southern Division.)
First, once the bridge is open, how many BMT southern trains will travel via tunnel? I propose 12 per hour, leaving 18 for your super shuttle. Riding that line every day, and knowing the distribution of jobs in Manhattan, I'd say that's enough. You'd want to run the rest express over the bridge, onto express lines in Manhattan. No one whose destination isn't south of Canal should have to endure the slog from Pacific to Canal Street via the Montigue.
I'm nervous about the bridge, as you know. But in the event of a half closure, we'd be better off with a Rutgers-DeKalb connection and the capacity displaced from the bridge heading direct to Midtown rather than the slow route through Downtown. No one whose destination isn't south of Canal should have to endure the slog from Pacific to Canal Street via the Montigue. In fact, a transfer at Canal to a southbound line might be faster to City Hall and Chambers as well, if you would have to transfer anyway.
(Second, there is excess capacity, right now, on the IND Lines to Brooklyn. Unless you imagine some need for 30TPH to the City on the Smith-Coney Island Line, there will always be excess capacity.)
Yes, but it's in the wrong place. Right now the F waits behind the G at 4th Avenue. You'd presumably have the A and C waiting behind the super shuttle, and the three of them would squeeze into Jay on the express track. But then the F would have to wait behind the C so it wouldn't back up the shuttle and the A. Then, it might have to wait behind the C again as it waits to merge with the E at W. 4th Street.
(And third, the Montague Street tunnel feeds all the BMT's downtown capacity, both to Broadway and Nassau Street. Without it, there is no downtown service for most of southern Brooklyn.)
As I said, 12 trains per hour is enough for the BMT southern. We have 50 trains per hour right now at rush hour, 30 on the bridge and 20 in the tunnel. We have ridership at close to a post-auto high. The bridge trains are packed, the tunnel trains half-empty. What will happen when the bridge opens? Perhaps 8 Rs and 6 Ms in the tunnel. We'd be better off with 12 Rs and the rest on the bridge, with 10 to 12 per service (West End, Sea Beach, Brighton local and express) depending on demand.
THAT would be doable ... the MAIN roadblock would be mixing TEA and FRA iron. If NYCT were to take over the tracks to Jamaica as SOLELY NYCT, that could happen. But shared trackage ain't gonna happen until NYCT pays for (through the NOSE I might add) FRA railroad equipment on any line(s) that might touch it.
It's the ROCKAWAY LINE REDUX! :)
If NYCT were to take over the tracks to Jamaica as SOLELY NYCT, that could happen
That's exactly what I figure. Disconnect it completely from the LIRR. The only operational problem I can see is that you would need turning facilities at Jamaica for the current LIRR trains that go to Brooklyn and could not be rerouted to Penn or East Side.
It could open up great new possibilities for Eastern Queens, maybe even Rockaway? You could get a sold 15TPH.
Yep ... just so folks realize that I harbor no ill to the concept, nor am "pro" ... that FRA issue is a solid, brick wall. And I'm SHOCKED that the morons in the study group that brought this up didn't attack that angle FIRST in their plan. Only shows to go you the mindset of sausage crafters in their great designs ...
But yeah, I don't live on Long Island, I could care either way. :)
An interesting consideration is what are the LIRR's long term plans for the Atlantic Branch once/if the East Side Access plan becomes a reality. Since they lease it from the City, they may look agressively to abandon it altogether.
"An interesting consideration is what are the LIRR's long term plans for the Atlantic Branch once/if the East Side Access plan becomes a reality. Since they lease it from the City, they may look agressively to abandon it altogether."
ESA shouldn't affect Brooklyn service. There are very few areas of the city where the best route from LI right now is the LIRR via Brooklyn, whereas once ESA is built the best route will be via GCT.
Actually, I heard from a commuter realtive of mine that commuting to lower Manhattan from Brooklyn is much easier than commuting from Penn. Considering how crowded GCT is at rush hours, throwing LIRR commuters into the mix isn't going to help.
It sounds pretty good, certainly much better than the Brookfield plan. Even so, I'm mindful of the adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." There is nothing wrong with the current setup of LIRR-to-subway transfers at Atlantic, and the money that your plan would require (admittedly, a lot less than Brookfield's) would be better spent elsewhere.
You appear to be under the impression that the Cranberry tunnel is underused. According to data it is the 2nd most heavily used crossing from Brooklyn to Manhattan during the morning rush hour. The most heavily used is the Manhattan Bridge. More passengers are enter Manhattan from Brooklyn via the A and C than via tha 4 and 5. (The A and C are also more crowded than the 4 and 5 when going under the East River). Most of these passengers are from Brooklyn because very few passengers walk the few blocks from the LIRR Flatbush terminal to the C stop at Lafayette Ave.
Given this, any diversion of the C to the Houston St line will result in more passengers trying to jam onto the already crowded remaining A service into lower Manhattan. Any suggestion that makes diverting subway traffic from the Cranberry St tunnel deserves the same enthusiasm as a new oil discovery in this age of greenhouse gases.
"More passengers are enter Manhattan from Brooklyn via the A and C than via tha 4 and 5."
But many of those passengers are going to midtown and would still take a C even if it went via the Rutgers Tunnel.
A better argument against adding a service to the Cranberry Tunnel is that the switching delays of moving the C back and forth would be a mess.
In any case, definitely the Montague Tunnel has more capacity and less possibility of witching delays.
But many of those passengers are going to midtown and would still take a C even if it went via the Rutgers Tunnel.
The number of people boarding at Culver line stations south of Jay St far exceeds the number of people boarding at Fulton St Stations. However, the number of people using the Cranberry St Tunnel is double that using the Rutgers St tunnel.
There are two scenarios for this: a lot of people get off at Jay St or a lot of people switch from the F to the A/C because the Houston St routing is not convenient.
The daily count of passengers entering Jay St does not completely explain this phenomenon. So, there are a significant number of people switching from the F to the A/C at Jay St.
My conclusion is that there are a sizeable number of Brooklyn residents who seek the area south of Houston as their destination. Moreover, people already on the A/C are not likely to change to the F, if their destination is midtown. Currently, the A/C is the second most crowded service entering Manhattan from Brooklyn. If even 25% of the current C riders were obliged to transfer to the A because the C were rerouted via Rutgers, then crowding would be severe on the remaining A service.
"The number of people boarding at Culver line stations south of Jay St far exceeds the number of people boarding at Fulton St Stations. However, the number of people using the Cranberry St Tunnel is double that using the Rutgers St tunnel."
Interesting point. First I found this hard to believe, until it occurred to me that many Culver passengers headed for midtown will still switch to the A/C at Jay St., in order to connect to a 2/3 or a 4/5 at Bway Nassau.
This implies that of the lengthy journey that A trains take, and even the sizable journey of the C train, only the two stops from Jay St to Bway Nassau are really full. You'd think that would prompt NYCT to run more Cs and fewer As from Brooklyn in the AM in rush hour, at least cutting down the As so they are symmetric with the other direction.
it occurred to me that many Culver passengers headed for midtown will still switch to the A/C at Jay St., in order to connect to a 2/3 or a 4/5 at Bway Nassau.
I have some problems with that hypothesis. North of Houston the F and 2/3 stops are within a couple of blocks of one another. Considering the problems of changing at Bway-Nassau, I'd think the average person would stay on a train that was moving and walk the extra couple of blocks at the destination.
The need to shift to the 4/5 for midtown access is more plausible. Certainly moving the F from 53rd to 63rd St and more recently closing down Lexington Ave to northbound trains has not helped matters. I'd assume that a Bway-Laffayette to uptown #6 service transfer should be a great benefit for such people.
Unfortunately, guessing origin-destination pairs is a guessing game. It's a shame because the Metrocard provides the facility to get fairly accurate estimates and can flag any changes to rider patterns fairly quickly. All that's required is to create a database table that contains each metrocard use. Each table entry need have only the metrocard #, the turnstile # and the time of day. A simple database program would be able to match metrocards use between the am and pm rush hours to get a fairly good estimate of origin-destination preferences.
"Unfortunately, guessing origin-destination pairs is a guessing game."
True, but in the absence of the MTA info that you point out could be obtained, logic is permnitted.
Why would Culver Line riders have more of a proclivity for going to downtown Manhattan than other south Brooklyn riders, who strongly prefer the bridge to the tunnel?
It's unlikely that Culver Line riders have an unusually high tendency to work in lower Manhattan (what would be so special in S Brooklyn about living near the F?). Therefore they probably switch to the A/C for some other reason, which isn't faster speed to midtown. It can really can only be a transfer the F doesn't provide, and I agree the 4/5 is the more valuable one. In fact, I have observed hordes of people transferring from the 4/5 at Fulton in the evening rush, whereas from time to time I have exited from the A/C eastward in the evening rush and have not seen hordes coming the other way from the 2/3.
That's because there's an easier A/C - 2/3 transfer at the next stop, Chambers/Park Place. And the A/C meets the 1/9 up at Columbus Circle (which is quite a busy transfer point).
The useful transfers at Fulton/Broadway-Nassau are A/C - 4/5, A/C - J/M/Z, 2/3 - J/M/Z, and 2/3 - 4/5. The other transfers are better done elsewhere -- 2/3 - A/C at Park Place, 4/5 - J/M/Z at Brooklyn Bridge.
Agreed. And 2/3 to 4/5 is probably done in Brooklyn or using the 42nd St shuttle by most people. It's a long treck at Bway Nassau, including elbowing your way through the crowds waiting for the A/C.
"That's because there's an easier A/C - 2/3 transfer at the next stop, Chambers/Park Place. And the A/C meets the 1/9 up at Columbus Circle (which is quite a busy transfer point)."
No... that isn't why the Fulton Street Station isn't a popular b/t the 2/3... it's because the 2/3 and "A" lines practically go to the same places... Besides, since the "A" covers the far west side better, I would be more incline to believe that more 2/3 passengers are transfering to the A/C than the other way around.
And forget about anyone transfering to the 4/5 from the 2/3 when there's an cross platform transfer at borough hall. Hahaha.. Don't forget the N also serves that station too..
N Broadway Line
I guess you've forgotten that not everyone is a Brooklyn-Midtown commuter. Don't worry -- you're not alone.
More passenger leaving the system at Jay seem to be F riders and lots more F riders get off at York than A riders at High.
Not a scientific observation but between working those lines and having business at Jay St about 2-3 times a week the last few weeks I think fairly accurate.
More passenger leaving the system at Jay seem to be F riders and lots more F riders get off at York than A riders at High.
No, the A/C has more riders into the City than would be indicated by the turstile counts on Fulton. The F has fewer riders into the City than would be indicated by the turstile counts on the Culver.
I do not doubt that people get off at York and High St, but their numbers don't account for the difference.
Are you basing more people get on the F on total fares on the stations or just ? The F has more people middays from Brooklyn then the A/C and also later into the night (but not much later)
Are you basing more people get on the F on total fares on the stations or just ?
I'm using statistics that appeared in two tables in "Better Transit for Brooklyn A Discussion Document" prepared by Community Consulting Services (available on the web) and a fudge factor derived by the New York Metropolitan Transportation Council that is also available on the web. I have not placed subway cars on a gram balance to determine passenger loads.
The two sets of data are "Subway Ridership by In-Bound Tunnels, Brooklyn to Manhattan AM Peak (7:00 To 10:00 AM), 1998 and "Average Weekday (24-Hour) Subway ridership in Brooklyn by Line Segment" combined with "24-Hour Turnstile Counts at Brooklyn Transfer Stations".
The data show the following: inbound tunnels: F at York - 26,016; A/C at High St - 52,290. Average weekday turnstile counts: Culver - 74,411; Fulton - 66572. Finally, 48% of the 24-hour turnstile count is expected to occur between 7 and 10 am. (This figure has been going down over the last decade. It was 55% in the early 1990's.) The Fulton St data does not include the Queens stations. This may affect the conclusion but we do know from other sources that these figures in aggregate are much lower than the Brooklyn figures.
If you apply these numbers, you will see an increase in the tunnel ridership for the A/C and a decrease for the F - in comparison to the 24 hour turnstile counts of the stations before the tunnels.
Consider the Canarsie line as a sanity check for this method. The Canarsie Line turnstile count is 60,713 and the count for Lorimer St is 6,998; the count for Myrtle Ave is 11,200 and the count for Broadway Jct is 6,944. Assuming 1/2 for the transfer stations brings the total 24 hour turnstile count for the Canarsie line to 73,284. 48% of this amount is: 35,176. The actual count at Bedford Ave was 34,095. The error is 3%, which I declare to be acceptable.
"The Fulton St data does not include the Queens stations."
Isn't that a sizable number, enough to make the total Fulton Line count considerably higher than the total Culver count? I haven't ridden that line in a long time but I was under the impression that the A trains (which as you point out are 70% of the total) are quite full by the time they get to Euclid Ave.
The Queens section on the A does not have any sizeable stations. The entire section from Rockaway Blvd to Lefferts and the Rockaways has a total annual turnstile count of only 9.1 million. Howard Bch is accounts for 1.1 million of that, which I'd assume to be mostly JFK and not rush hour traffic.
Yes, the missing stations might add 30,000 to the average daily count, bringing it up to 97,000 and exceeding the Culver. However, translating this to the am rush hour brings this number to 46,560 and not the 52,290 actually counted. Combining that with the drop of 35,717 to 26,016 for the Culver, still makes me think there is a net movement from the F to the A/C at Jay St.
If anybody has a consistent average daily count for the entire Fulton and Culver lines, it would help settle the matter.
2001 Average Weekday Subway Ridership by Line Segment:
Culver (Neptune Avenue to York Street, not including Fourth Avenue or Jay Street, which are complexes): 84,145
Fulton Street (Rockaway Boulevard to High Street, not including Broadway-East New York, Franklin Avenue, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, or Jay Street, which are complexes): 60,485
Rockaway Line (Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway to Aqueduct Racetrack): 17,545
Lefferts Boulevard Branch (Lefferts Boulevard, 111th Street, and 104th Street): 11,925
It seems Fulton Street+Rockaways+Lefferts beats Culver, but not by much.
David
(It seems Fulton Street+Rockaways+Lefferts beats Culver, but not by much.)
The Fulton St. line may also get some net transfers at Broadway Junction, though post bridge switch the F also does, off the 4th Avenue.
Thanks for the information.
It does nothing to undermine the hypothesis that there is a significant net increase to the Cranberry St Tunnel trains at the Jay St transfer.
Does the TA keep data on inbound ridership by river crossing? The data I'm using refers to the NYMTC, not the TA.
"The need to shift to the 4/5 for midtown access is more plausible. Certainly moving the F from 53rd to 63rd St and more recently closing down Lexington Ave to northbound trains has not helped matters. I'd assume that a Bway-Laffayette to uptown #6 service transfer should be a great benefit for such people."
It will definately make a difference at the Jay Street Station.. But you still have to factor in the fact that this would not be a cross platform transfer.. The only benefit would be that the person will be getting of on a local #6 stop.
N Bwy
"The number of people boarding at Culver line stations south of Jay St far exceeds the number of people boarding at Fulton St Stations. However, the number of people using the Cranberry St Tunnel is double that using the Rutgers St tunnel.
There are two scenarios for this: a lot of people get off at Jay St or a lot of people switch from the F to the A/C because the Houston St routing is not convenient."
This is exactly what it is.. The "A" gets a larger bulk of "F" passengers than visa versa. One reason might be because of the 4/5 connection.. At this point, the "A" looses a bulk of it passengers...
"If even 25% of the current C riders were obliged to transfer to the A because the C were rerouted via Rutgers, then crowding would be severe on the remaining A service."
As an "A" rider on occasion, No question...
N Bwy
The reason why the "A" line is so crowded when it enters brooklyn is because more than half the 4/5 passengers transfer to it.
N Broadway Line
We've been studying the morning commute from Brooklyn into Manhattan. Your concern appears to be during the evening commute. The reverse case in the morning is that A/C riders would transfer at Bway-Nassau to the 4/5.
As I mentioned in another post, people doing this transfer are probably bound for midtown locations on the East Side. There's no percentage in a transfer for downtown destinations. The Bway-Lafayette/Bleeker uptown transfer should provide a better alternative. Much of it will depend on how good or bad the transfer is designed. There may be problems, if the uptown Bleeker St platform is not moved downtown to coincide with the downtown platform.
So Jamaica would have three lines to lower Manhattan while Fulton local stations would have none. Have you asked the Fulton local passengers how they feel about that? Or do they not count?
I agree with others that Montague is a better bet. The trains through Montague are among the emptiest entering the CBD in the morning rush, so a few trains can afford to go. If, as has been suggested by many, the N returns to the bridge, that leaves spare capacity in the Montague tunnel. Send your new train up the local to Astoria.
In any case, the money would be better used elsewhere.
Everyone seems to follow the notion that these new Jamaica trains would force the C to operate across Rutgers. That is not true. A/C trains combined have about 20tph, which leaves 10tph for service. I doubt that present LIRR trains operate at this capacity, do they?
This new Jamaica service could terminate at Chambers, using the middle track N. of chambers to turn. (is that D5?)
No, the LIRR service at peak is planned at only 8 tph, but I would think a super express for eastern and southeastern Queens, which is what I'm proposing, would be more popular than that, and would need more than that.
How about an "X" train, 10 TPH, from Queens Village via Atlantic Avenue downtown to Chambers, and the "V" train, 10 TPH, extended via Atlantic Avenue to Springfield/St. Albans.
A big increase in high quality service for one of the most underserved areas of the city, CHEAP!
How about extending both the Hillside and Archer Av subways all the way to the border, and connecting them to this line? (If that's what St. Albans and Queens Village are, i'm sorry. I don't know queens like that.)
How about extending both the Hillside and Archer Av subways all the way to the border, and connecting them to this line? (If that's what St. Albans and Queens Village are, i'm sorry. I don't know queens like that.)
Because, as I've said in other parts of this thread, the Hillside (R and F) Line is extremely overburderned and the Archer (J/Z) is so ssssllllllloooooooow noone wants to use it.
Shouldn't people in the far reaches of the city get a crack at decent service. Foe crissakes, the people in the 3-block wide Rockaways have better services.
Because, as I've said in other parts of this thread, the Hillside (R and F) Line is extremely overburderned and the Archer (J/Z) is so ssssllllllloooooooow noone wants to use it.
I guess I did a bad job expressing myself.
I mean to EXTEND the Hillside and Archer Av lines, and then tie them into this new line (easily accomplished on Archer, Hillside requires a bit of connections.)
So, you build the long overdue extensions, and then send the extra ridership via this new 'super express', which should have only the existing stops (much of the line parallels Fulton ANYWAY...). Two services, 10tph each. Send the Archer line via a connection to the BMT in bklyn and then via one of the bridge trax (there will be excess space on the bridge when both sides are open). In fact, if the 2nd av line is built with a flyover at Grand St to link it to Manhattan Bridge service, then send the train up 2nd av. Send the Hillside service across the Cranberry tunnel to a terminal on the 8th av line before 59th st. (Either Chambers or 14th st, using the extra tracks just s. of 34th to turn around. In fact, if possible, terminate AT 34th.
After looking at the plan, it becomes a way to give a huge service boost to people who live in the 'outer' areas of Queens. When ESA is complete, this should be considered!
Ah, I see now. Thanks for the explanation.
you know,I talked about the very same subject months ago.
BTW, I don't agree with the premise of this thread. You have more than 20 trains going through the Cranberry at the peak. You could cut service, of course. I think in the end you'd have to terminate the C in Downtown Brooklyn, perhaps moving the transit museum.
BTW, I don't agree with the premise of this thread. You have more than 20 trains going through the Cranberry at the peak. You could cut service, of course. I think in the end you'd have to terminate the C in Downtown Brooklyn, perhaps moving the transit museum.
I don't see any outstanding reason why C service couldn't go via Houston, which is no more than 15 tph at the peak.
Again: have you asked C passengers what they think?
Recast your thinking, David. Suppose there were no issue whatsoever of any benefit of any kind to railroad commuters. Suppose we are talking about using the combined excess capacity of the Brooklyn IND tubes to create a new service that would run east at Empire Blvd. to service the broad swath of East Flatbush and then on to eastern Queens. We want the service to have access to lower Manhattan and therefore the Cranberry Tunnel is the best way to go.
We determine that shifting the C local service to Houston is the most benefit for the least disruption. Local riders on 8th Avenue already have the E train to that area. Brooklyn riders from downtown can change to the C same platform at Jay or cross-platform at Hoyt.
Would you still give C riders veto power over a reroute and deprive underserved city riders in Brooklyn and Queens a significant service?
Let me try to put the magnitude of the problem into perspective.
There are currently 52,000 people who use the Cranberry St Tunnel from Bklyn to Manhattan between 7 and 10 am. 30% use the C and 70% use the A, based on equal load levels. If 33% of those currently using the C went to downtown destinations, then The A's would become 14% more crowded. The A's currently average a 76% of their service level capacity over the am rush hour. This would be raised to 87%. By contrast, the "overcrowded" 4/5 service currently averages 70% of service level capacity during the morning rush hours. If the LIRR passengers find their current situation in the IRT uncomfortable, then this plan damns Brooklyn residents to cattle car conditions. The initial premise - that there is lots of spare capacity in the Cranberry tunnel - is false.
What about raw numbers. As stated above, 30% of the 52,000 or 15,600 people use the C. The 24 hour turnstile count for the Atlantic/Pacific complex is 22,000. The fudge factor is 48% to get from the daily count to the am rush hour count. So, the super express benefit would accrue to 10,560 people. So, for starters, 48% more people will be inconvenienced than would be helped.
There's a British expression which is both elegant and inelegant at the same time:
"I've got mine, Jack. F@@@ You!"
We are living ina world in which people will not consider giving up the slightest thing they have, no matter how much good might be done others.
I'm saying: Let's take the LIRR out of it. Nothing for the LIRR. Do you give every current rider veto power and let capacity go fallow?
"I'm saying: Let's take the LIRR out of it. Nothing for the LIRR. Do you give every current rider veto power and let capacity go fallow?"
In that case there's a strong argument for using the Montague Tunnel for the new service, since it has the most spare capacity.
We are living ina world in which people will not consider giving up the slightest thing they have, no matter how much good might be done others.
I consider anybody who asks people to make sacrifices that they themselves would not make for a "greater good" to be a demogogue.
A and C riders are making the sacrifice of extremely more crowded trains. Moreover, their trains are currently more crowded than those currently endured by LIRR passengers during their subway sojourn. They will be even more overcrowded after the switch.
The situation might be tolerated, if more people benefited than were harmed. The reverse is true in this case.
This is not to say that there are not solutions that would make life better for LIRR commuters at Flatbush Ave. Existing IRT service is not maxed out and could be increased sufficiently with fairly modest construction. Gain can be had without pain. It has not yet been proposed.
We are living ina world in which people will not consider giving up the slightest thing they have, no matter how much good might be done others.
I consider anybody who asks people to make sacrifices that they themselves would not make for a "greater good" to be a demogogue
No, that's a hypocrite. A demagogue is a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power.
A hypocrite it is. :-)
You haven't changed the issues. You posit, with no supporting evidence, that passengers on your new line need direct access to lower Manhattan, yet you ignore existing ridership patterns on existing lines. You also fail to take into account the projected ridership count of your new line and how it compares to the existing C ridership.
I'm not giving C riders veto power. I'm simply not denying their existence.
C riders in Brooklyn can transfer to the A -- but unless C's are always routed into Hoyt directly in front of A's, that can mean a substantial extra wait. C riders in Manhattan can use the E only if they're not going to Broadway-Nassau (a major transfer point, and the C's only connection to the 4/5) and if they're not coming from north of 50th. And aren't A's crowded enough already?
Why do you object to sending your new line via Montague, which will have lots of excess capacity when the bridge is fully reopened? Nobody will need to be bumped anywhere.
Why do you object to sending your new line via Montague, which will have lots of excess capacity when the bridge is fully reopened? Nobody will need to be bumped anywhere.
I've already said that my objection to using Montague Street is my opinion, based on my familiarity with rapid transit in southern Brooklyn, that there is no capacity to spare. This is a BMT issue, not an LIRR, or eastern Queens issue.
Southern Brooklyn has been underserved at least since the Manhattan Bridge started showing signs of age and neglect. It is an unreliable basis on which to assume the availability of future capacity. We hope that we may not have to close the bridge partially or completely in the future.
If the four tracks of the MB were replaced by four new tunnel tracks, we could rethink the whole thing.
Right now, even with only two bridge tracks open, Montague trains are very empty and Cranberry trains are very crowded.
Why do BMT riders count more than C riders, anyway? You object to Montague over a fear that, maybe, if the bridge isn't fixed, Montague will be somewhat important to some riders, but you ignore the fact that Cranberry is very important to even more riders.
Why do BMT riders count more than C riders, anyway?
Let's not string out this "my dog's better than your dog" crap any further.
You object to Montague over a fear that, maybe, if the bridge isn't fixed, Montague will be somewhat important to some riders,
Oh, no, if there's no Manhattan Bridge fix, Montague wouldn't be important. Not at all. There's always car ferries. Hey, I own stock in NYRR. It might actually be worth something then.
but you ignore the fact that Cranberry is very important to even more riders.
More than the entire Southern Division of the BMT?
(Southern Brooklyn has been underserved at least since the Manhattan Bridge started showing signs of age and neglect. It is an unreliable basis on which to assume the availability of future capacity. We hope that we may not have to close the bridge partially or completely in the future.)
And the TA is planning to drop the DeKalb-Rutgers connection. So the assumption is that the bridge is fine, forever. I may not share it and you may not share it but there it is.
So again, no one seemed to have responded to my points. There are currently 18 As and 8 Cs at peak -- when service was cut below that in the early 1990s, you couldn't get on a train. They want to make the link at Vanderbelt. The switch to the Rutgers is north of Jay Street. That puts the A, C, and shuttle on a single track. The only way around it is to built a link from the local tracks to the F tracks, and no one wants to pay for that.
Now the F waits for the G. Under this proposal, it waits for the C. Then it waits for the C to merge back in at W. 4th. Forever.
(Oh, no, if there's no Manhattan Bridge fix, Montague wouldn't be important. Not at all. There's always car ferries. Hey, I own
stock in NYRR. It might actually be worth something then.)
As long as the bridge is open for pedestrians, you could do a quickie station and both ends and have people walk across. For all that Brooklynites matter, that would probably be good enough. Beggars can't be chosers.
Any combination at all involving a merge from the LIRR Atlantic Ave. branch will involve possible merges/delays.
As you said earlier in the thread (which I also said in another thread a while ago), the LIRR connection into the A/C lines would bottleneck at Hoyt-Schermerhorn unless the local tracks currently going to the Court St. Subway Museum are connected into the outer tracks at Jay the F uses to get to the Rutgers tunnel.
Then you'd have the C/F through Rutgers, but their bigger bottleneck wouldn't come when the C waits to swtich back to the Eighth Ave. local tracks at West Fourth; the bigger jam would be at Second Ave. -- where the V terminates -- or at B'way-Lafayette, if you assume an eight-car V train running out via the Willie B to Metropolitan Ave. replacing the M.
The plan also pretty much kills any thought of reinstating Culver express service, since the F would be the only line that could feed into Bergen, and the people there and Carollo Gardens won't go back to the 1968-76 set-up.
At the other end, whether or not use use Cranberry or Montague to get to Lower Manhattan, you still need a terminal somewhere down there. Using Montague, you might be able to create a "Lower Cortlandt" terminal ending in front of the WTC site -- so long as the Sea Beach goes back to the Manny B in 2004 -- while a terminal off the A in the same area is more problamatic, in terms of creating a flying junction. It would have to split off right after the B'way-Nassau station and drop in a hurry to allow the IND tracks to turn onto Chruch St. and pass above it (can't run the tracks above the IND tunnel, the BMT tracks are there) and if you try and turn those trains on existing IND tracks north of Chambers, you get into delays for the A train, both uptown and downtown.
In short, there's no good plan that wouldn't involve major new investments in infrastructure beyond any connection of the LIRR tracks to the IND or BMT. But that's not the concern of the Brookfield people; even if you laid out all the problems in front of them (as I'm sure someone at the MTA already has) they wouldn't care, because they see $4.5 billion of someone else's money sitting out there, and they think they have the best way to spend it (if "best way" means most profitable for Brookfield Properties).
(At the other end, whether or not use use Cranberry or Montague to get to Lower Manhattan, you still need a terminal somewhere down there.)
Chambers Street. The "subway" would use the Broadway line, while the suburban connector would use the Nassau Loop. The middle track could be used to make a flyover, if you were willing to give up a turn around at Chambers from the north, and the suburban connector could terminate on teh eastern platform.
(In short, there's no good plan that wouldn't involve major new investments in infrastructure beyond any connection of the LIRR
tracks to the IND or BMT.)
If they don't want to pay for a new tunnel, as the RPA proposes, perhaps an extension to the waterfront and a ferry would do. That would get Long Islanders off the subway, and unlike the subway the ferry could be timed to the train and wouldn't be already crowded with city residents.
Another option: install a middle track on the Jamaica line, extending it directly down Jamaica Avenue on a quite concrete viaduct and avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Twelve trains per hour in each direction could run Jamaica Center, LIRR, Broadway Junction, Marcy Avenue, Manhattan. Riders between Jamaica Center and Broadway Junction would presumably switch to the express there. But this assumes LIRR riders don't mind the subway. Methinks that many of them do, present posters excepted.
Another option:...
Here's another option that benefits both LIRR commuters and subway riders at fairly low cost.
As mentioned earlier the LIRR riders contribute about 11,000 to the 7-10 am rush hour. How about enlarging the IRT Atlantic Ave station to include a 2 track stub terminal. This would permit an ADDITIONAL 12+ tph to originate here. I'd put 6 each on the east and west side lines.
N.B. the capacity of the IRT lines in Brooklyn is limited by lack of sufficient terminal facilities. This would add a new terminal without interfering with existing through service.
The additional trains will also need a northern terminal. I'd turn the Lex trains at 149th & Grand Concourse. The Lenox Terminal station has sufficient capacity to turn the additional west side trains. The existing downtown capacity of both lines would be substantially increased by running these additional trains in both directions. That's the benefit for Lex Ave Express riders originating in Manhattan.
All this hinges on whether a convenient new stub terminal can be built within the Atlantic Ave station confines that can fed from both the local and express tracks. It's a tight fit because it must pass above the IND at Lafayette Ave, the BMT at 4th Ave and must stop short of the Brighton line. I think it's possible but there is another possibility. Provide 2 terminals, one for the local and one for the express.
Here's how to handle the express terminal. Knock out the walls of the Atlantic Ave side platforms and make Atlantic a 6 track station. The existing center tracks become a stub terminal for the expresses; the existing outer tracks, currently used by the local become the through express tracks; the locals are routed to the new trackways outside the existing side platform walls. The through locals and expresses go back to their original locations as they leave Atlantic.
The local terminal is a single 1 track stub down the middle of the Grand Army Plaza station. The platform is wide enough to accomplish this.
This has the disadvantage of forcing LIRR passengers to decide between East Side and West Side platforms rather than having a single platform with empty trains providing both services. However, 2 terminals guarantees that all the construction is done at grade within the existing row - except for the expanded Atlantic Ave station. The ROW between Nevins and Atlantic is already 6 tracks wide.
Not a bad idea for the west side. It is constrainted by the junction at Nostrand and the terminal at Flatbush -- this is past both.
The east side, however, is constrained by dwell time at Grand Central, which will get worse when East Side Access is built and the Second Avenue is not. Perhaps if you pulled the same trick at GCT.
Still, I think the better option is to use the Montigue Tunnel and the Nassau Loop to Chambers, then go further on an express track on Second Avenue. At least that would provide a suburban incentive to get Second Avenue built.
"The east side, however, is constrained by dwell time at Grand Central, which will get worse when East Side Access is built and the Second Avenue is not."
People keep saying that ESA will make the 4/5 more crowded, but no one ever explains why. I certainly see that the downtown 6 below GCT will get more crowded with people heading to lower Park Ave.
But who is going to take an ESA train to GCT to get to lower Manhattan when it's quicker to take a train to Brooklyn? It's also more convenient to get from LIRR/Penn to the 2/3 than from the lower level at GCT (much less a new LIRR third level) to the 4/5.
(But who is going to take an ESA train to GCT to get to lower Manhattan when it's quicker to take a train to Brooklyn?)
People who don't like "the element" on the Brooklyn trains, including those who have never traveled through Brooklyn. Do not discount this.
The only way out I see is an implementation of MetroNorth to Penn at the same time, followed by removing the combined ticket discount at Grand Central station. Essentially, it would cost two dollars more to change to the subway at Grand Central than at Penn or Brooklyn.
"People who don't like "the element" on the Brooklyn trains, including those who have never traveled through Brooklyn. Do not discount this."
OK, I won't discount this. Presumably these people are currently taking the LIRR to Penn and switching to the 2/3. Why would they take the 4/5 from GCT instead? It's a long, crowded, and annoying walk from the lower level of GCT to the 4/5. And then there are often delays getting through Union Square.
(OK, I won't discount this. Presumably these people are currently taking the LIRR to Penn and switching to the 2/3. Why would they take the 4/5 from GCT instead? It's a long, crowded, and annoying walk from the lower level of GCT to the 4/5. And then there are often delays getting through Union Square. )
Because the latest LIRR train that both stops at their home station and gets them to work on time (from any of the possible transfer points) puts them at GCT. Will people leave 1/2 hour earlier then hang around work to avoid changing to the 4/5? No. If crowding gets back enough, they'll figure out a way to take city residents off the trains. Ie. eliminate the $3 stub, send all west side trains up through E. 180th, and turn the #5 at Yankee Stadium.
OK. That makes sense. Thanks.
The current size of the LIRR rolling stock WILL NOT FIT! The R/44s of the A are about as big as you are going to get through the Cranberry squeeze.
May be the center track on the "J" line should be re-hashed again?
It goes from Jamaica to Wall St.
Eliminate the tight curves with a reroute between cypress hills and ENY and the super shuttle looks better.
avid
Presumably we are talking about Brooklyn LIRR changes which would physically disconnect the line from the railroad. This means that all LIRR passengers who want to use the Brooklyn line would have to change at Jamaica.
Therefore the Atlantic Avenue Line would use a separate fleet, or even could use any present or future B Division stock, all non-FRA compliant.
The latter brings up an interesting point. If LIRR unions (or anyone else) sued on the basis that the "subwayization" of the Atlantic Avenue Line was a mere ploy to escape Federal oversight, they could potentially delay or even kill the project.
(The latter brings up an interesting point. If LIRR unions (or anyone else) sued on the basis that the "subwayization" of the Atlantic Avenue Line was a mere ploy to escape Federal oversight, they could potentially delay or even kill the project.)
Anyone can sue to kill anything in this town.
In any event, a little side note. Some years ago, after the MTA dropped Rutgers-DeKalb without explaining how the identified problem would be solved, I convinced City Planning to study the future of the bridges and what it meant to Brooklyn. That sputtered out like everything else I did there. But DCPs transportation division came up with the idea of recapuring the Atlantic Avenue Branch. I didn't get it -- it parallels Fulton -- and neither did the MTA people on their advisory committee.
Anyway, as a Brooklyn resident I'd trade 18 of 30 trains per hour in the Montigue for Rugters-DeKalb. If half the bridge was out for another 22 years, the additional trains forced to travel via tunnel would use the Rutgers straight to Midtown rather than crawling from Pacific to Canal, as the N does now.
Moreover, if the Second Avenue were built with a stop at Grand, it would be possible to run all Broadway trains via the Montigue and all 6th Avenue trains via Rutgers during non-rush hours, with all stops served. That was my suggestion in the study. The mid-day and evening allocation in the Montigue would be 18 for the subway and 12 for the suburban shuttle. That would cut the number of trains going over the bridge per week by 2/3. Might preserve it.
Some years ago, after the MTA dropped Rutgers-DeKalb without explaining how the identified problem would be solved
I can see how they'd connect that in the Manhattan bound direction, but how the beep would they do that one towards De Kalb? Would it be some kinda mix of a junction at grade and a flying junction or something?
But DCPs transportation division came up with the idea of recapuring the Atlantic Avenue Branch. I didn't get it -- it parallels Fulton -- and neither did the MTA people on their advisory committee.
So quite who thinks this is a sensible idea? Wouldn't it be cheaper and more sensible (and even more useful) extending the Lefferts Branch (A) Train to Jamaica and letting the (E) train finally be connected to the current LIRR via Locust Manor and take over a few branches completely (to escape the FRA)? What is the obsession with digging big holes in Downtown Brooklyn when the "problem" (if there is one) could also be fixed in Jamaica?
Before this LIRR on TA facilities goes any further, 2nd Ave must be built with an express expansion in mind.
A Rutgers-De Kalb connection should be given serious consideration.
The Montauk Branch in Queens should have a grade crossing elimination program to make it safer for increased service.
The extension of the "A" line from Lefferts to Jamaica with an express service is worth more thought and discussion.
A center track for the Jamaica branch to provide thru express service needs consideration if for nothing else as a safety valve for future G.O.s
avid
The east side, however, is constrained by dwell time at Grand Central, which will get worse when East Side Access is built and the Second Avenue is not. Perhaps if you pulled the same trick at GCT.
The added trains would reduce the dwell time at Grand Central because each train would be carrying proportionately fewer people. The Lex is mis-managed as it is vis-a-vis scheduling and dwell times. In any case better management would be required for merging short runs into the flow.
I think that you would have to turn the trains at 167th Street rather than 149th Street because the center track at 149th Street/Grand Concourse is used during the rush hour by #4 trains to bypass 138th Street in the direction of heavy traffic.
I think that you would have to turn the trains at 167th Street rather than 149th Street because the center track at 149th Street/Grand Concourse is used during the rush hour by #4 trains to bypass 138th Street in the direction of heavy traffic.
There's no need to bypass 138th St in the heavy direction. There are more delays introduced because of the switching than are saved in bypassing a little used station. This is especially true because of the wheel detectors for southbound trains entering the station area, which are activated when the switch south of the station is not set properly.
I'd use the center track from 138th to 149th to turn the 6 extras. The reason for this is to avoid a relay at 149th St. There should not be a problem doing this with once every 10 minutes.
I'd use the relay north of 149th, as a bailout in case there were problems. There would be 34-36 tph south of 149th, so any delays would be a disaster. There would be 20-22 tph at 149th after the White Plains Rd trains would turn off.
Of course, if the bridge fails entirely, then Montague becomes very important -- probably moreso than any other single crossing. But if two tracks on the bridge are usable, then Montague already becomes one of the least important river crossings to the BMT. If all four tracks are in service, it becomes even less important.
Cranberry, OTOH, is important no matter what happens to the bridge.
While I can understand skepticism over the future status of the bridge, I don't think anyone's seriously suggested that all four tracks will probably be removed from service -- the worst I've heard is that it's a possibility.
Especially with all the construction on the bridge over the last decades. At any given time it's only been either Broadway or 6th Ave that has lost service. AFIK, both sides never lost service at the same time for any real period of time. When the work is complete, this should be even less likely, barring any unforseen disaster or problem with the bridge of course. It should soon have both sides running to normal service in a couple of years, and remain that way for maqny years to come.
(When the work is complete, this should be even less likely, barring any unforseen disaster or problem with the bridge of course. It should soon have both sides running to normal service in a couple of years, and remain that way for maqny years to come. )
Let's hope so. But, as was discussed a while back, we'll have heavy, uneven loading on one side of the bridge -- a side that is supposedly "fixed" for three years. That's a pretty good test of what the future holds. I'd like to see if there were any cracks.
But, as was discussed a while back, we'll have heavy, uneven loading on one side of the bridge
Again, very true. Although that has been the problem with the bridge since the beginning. Originally, the north tracks were the Broadway tracks, and used much more than the south tracks, the ?Nassau St tracks. After 1968, the Broadway tracks switched to the Nassau tracks, but then they became the lesser used tracks, again the south side, with the 6th Ave tracks then being the more used north tracks. Hopefully they have found a way to stengthen the bridge after all the time and money that has been spent on it over the last 20 years.
One early warning will be the new pedestrian sidewalk. The concrete in the sidewalk is less forgiving of movement than the bridge's structural members. If the concrete starts showing cracks, then the bridge is not as stiff as they had hoped it would be.
(One early warning will be the new pedestrian sidewalk. The concrete in the sidewalk is less forgiving of movement than the bridge's structural members. If the concrete starts showing cracks, then the bridge is not as stiff as they had hoped it would be.)
That sounds reasonable. Perhaps a Subtalk fantrip could be arranged just as the full bridge opens. I gather there are enough techies on this site that we might be able to figure something out. Anyone got a strain gauge?
The Williamburg Bridge was out completely for a significant time. The Brooklyn Bridge, which had extensive rail service for 60 years, now supposedly couldn't stand too many SUVs.
Yes, I know that these issues can (and have been) explained away. But the Manhattan Bridge is an old bridge that suffered extensive and prolonged neglect. Engineers are great at explaining why catastrophic structure failures occurred after the fact.
At a minimum, I think we should build the DeKalb-York connection you've been proposing, and build at least a new 2-track tunnel with fly-over connections to Chrystie and Broadway.
This is more important that the sainted Second Avenue Subway. Much.
we'll have heavy, uneven loading on one side of the bridge
AGAIN, the fact that the loading is UNEVEN makes NO difference. The only time that a load is balanced on the bridge is when there are trains on both sides of the bridge simultaneously. If a "D" passes on A/B tracks, and then a "Q" passes on H tracks a minute later, there will be will be a drop on both sides of the bridge. In fact, if the bridge weren't strong enough, having trains on bot sides would be worse. If the trains are only on one side, it would create damage/twisting in one direction only, whereas it would be pulled back-and-forth if there were trains on two sides of the bridge.
"Especially with all the construction on the bridge over the last decades. At any given time it's only been either Broadway or 6th Ave that has lost service."
What are you talking about??? Broadway got the shaft for a longer period of time than the 6th Avenue... which got favoritism.
*FROWNING*
N Broadway Line
You are taking what I said out of context. We were talking about how important the Montague Tunnel would be if the Manhattan Bridge would be totally out of service on both sides. In the past it has only been one side or the other. While it is true that Broadway has been without service for quite a while, don't forget that currently is not the first time 6th Ave lost service on the bridge.
Personally, I feel 6th Ave service suffers more without the Manhattan Bridge than Broadway does without it, not that I want to see either side without it.
Personally, I think the Cranberry Tunnel expanded its capcity today by, oh, 5 to 10 pounds :)
--Mark
"While I can understand skepticism over the future status of the bridge, I don't think anyone's seriously suggested that all four tracks will probably be removed from service -- the worst I've heard is that it's a possibility."
If the bridge reconstruction designers have done their job right, no tracks will be removed from service in any of our lifetimes.
If they've done it wrong, cracks will start to reappear, engineers will study it for a year or two, and conceivably they could say there's no way to ever make the current bridge carry subways on a permanent basis. In that case (which I personally consider very unlikely, since engineers usually get it right the second time around) hopefully there would be time to build a Rutgers-Dekalb conection before the bridge has to be taken out of service forever.
the question is,could we replace the bridge with a tunnel,and how quickly could it be done? The point,why not build a ''NEW TUNNEL'' for mixed use ? It's needed,if not only to replace the Manny B,but to also give rider a nother option.I think the takeover of the Atlantic line is great,but in this case I dont see the need to ''break those eggs to make this ommlet'' New routing'' is called for here,not removing one service and replacing it with another...
the question is,could we replace the bridge with a tunnel,and how quickly could it be done? The point,why not build a ''NEW TUNNEL'' for mixed use ? It's needed,if not only to replace the Manny B,but to also give rider a nother option.I think the takeover of the Atlantic line is great,but in this case I dont see the need to ''break those eggs to make this ommlet'' New routing'' is called for here,not removing one service and replacing it with another...
(the question is,could we replace the bridge with a tunnel,and how quickly could it be done? The point,why not build a ''NEW TUNNEL'' for mixed use ?)
The RPA's proposal was a new tunnel for a suburban super-subway from Jamaica via Atlantic Avenue and up Second Avenue (as the express tracks) to Grand Central, then another tunnel out to Secaucus Transfer. A quick transfer to an empty train would put NJT riders at Grand Central, and MetroNorth and LIRR riders in Lower Manhattan, not to mention both having access to Grand Central and Penn.
No one wants the work and cost.
I've seen the report,and it makes sense.Still if the funding WAS there,would the MTA make the investment? Sure,we say the lines are needed,and THEY know most[if not all]are needed,but would they BUILD them? The monies that were set aside for the LGA line[and thats going nowhere]could be use to fund an additional Second ave branch line,and or the Atlanic Branch route.....or a Dekalb/Rudgers connection[didn't forget about that one]... so many opptions are available now to act upon... but the issue is whether we have the resorces,backbone and CASH to get things done[built] in NEW YORK CITY. The reputation we've earned over the years is well known in Washington[see 1968 MTA PLAN FOR ACTION/1975 BOND ISSUE].Things here have to change[people] in order for it to get better. I could go on and on,but this is Sub-talk,and YOU guys know exactly what I mean...
Was watching the whole meeting on NY1 as I was reading through the board. Still not decided as to whether it will be by .25 or .50
You could hear all the protesting from outside the meeing room.
Any idea when it will happen? People have been asking me all day if it will happened tomorrow.
I told them NO. If it was going to happen:
1) 1 or 2 turnstiles would be closed at every station in the system.
2) All station agents would be told to sell no more than 2 tokens to a customer at all times.
3) Bags of "Mystery Tokens" would be delivered to all full time booths with strict instructions they are NOT to be opened or mixed with the bags of current tokens.
4) The official announcement from MTA would be made on a friday afternoon after 4PM. An hour after the banks close for the weekend so that some people withdraw money to make an "investment" that will yield a quick 33% return.
I've been down here 23 years thru 7 fare increases. That is what I've noticed in that time.
But there's one major difference this time: MetroCard exists, is in place at all stations and on all buses, and is much more popular than the token.
There is absolutely no need to mint a new token at this point. Tokens already in circulation may be accepted on buses for $1.50 of the fare, and perhaps the turnstiles could be reprogrammed to require two tokens for entry.
With the pay-per-ride Metrocard, At 12:01 am the day of the fare increase, instead of deducting $1.50 the turnstile will start deducting either $1.75 or $2.00. Just like that.
At a station where there are say 4 turnstiles, 1 or 2 of the turnstiles will be closed "until further notice". The tokens slots will have been readjusted for a possible new token. And they'll also be sealed off so that people don't lose their current tokens in it. At 12:01 the day the fare goes up, the turnstile that has been closed will open up accepting ONLY the new token. And the turnstiles that have been accepting the current token will be CLOSED.
Maybe TA will send out bags of "Mystery Tokens" and they will actually be the old Bullseye tokens. I doubt if they'll mint new tokens this time around. But they will try to keep us guessing about the token. After all, how many of us would pass up a chance to make an investment of $1500 with the possibility of making $2000 in return? Some people will try to do it. I doubt if it will come down to people having to use 2 tokens to enter the system.
Again, there is no reason to go through any expense to accomodate new tokens. Reprogram turnstiles to deduce $2.00 (or whatever is decided) from each MetroCard and to reject tokens as of the effective date and time. Tokenholders can turn in their tokens for MetroCards or cash.
That's probably what will happen with the cards.
If a new token is used, the old token and 25/50 cents will allow the purchase of a new token. More than likely the current token will still be used. So people will still be able to use them. However there will be no cashing in of tokens at all.
Or maybe they'll withdraw most tokens from circulation and limit each customer to 2. If a booth runs out of tokens, this time around the S/A can always sell 1 fare Metrocards.
single ride MetroCards (paper MetroCards) are not sold at the booth but can only be bought at MVMs. We do not stock single ride cards. (At least not yet.)
If we in the booths start selling single ride tickets, Imagine how much longer it will make the lines at the booths.
Right. I was just informing the poster that we do not sell them.
You will when they dump the token.
Peace,
ANDEE
I doubt it. The MVM will be the only choice for those who want to purchase just one ride. Indeed, I would expect that within a year of the token's demise we will see the end of any booth sales. Chicago's done it; Washington, IIRC, never had attendants selling farecards; and all other major US systems have some form of automated fare sales available, if not as the only choice.
This does not mean that the SA job will go away; what it will do is reduce the number of SAs required and it will allow them to perform more useful customer care functions. Unfortunately, the seniority system in place means that those who have been there the longest are the ones who will continue to be there, regardless of whether or not they are the most competent in their new role as customer care representatives (to borrow a phrase from big business).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Indeed, I would expect that within a year of the token's demise we will see the end of any booth sales. <<<
That is too short a time frame. I would expect to see a five year transition period. The residential local stations would see the first closings, with busier stations retaining booths I would expect at least six months notice to the public at stations which will convert to machine sales only. Attrition would be the main way of reducing personnel, keeping those close to retirement in the remaining booths and retraining others to be roving Station Agents/Customer Service Reps. I would predict that Times Square would be the last station to sell cards from a booth, and when sales stop, the booth will remain as a human occupied information booth.
Tom
Probably only on a temporary basis since MVMs don't take tokens.
If we in the booths start selling single ride tickets, Imagine how much longer it will make the lines at the booths.
True, but there's no need for the booths to sell the single-rides, the MVM's can handle that.
The MVM's can handle that. But people will stlll come to the booth window asking for single ride tickets, Fun passes and a metrocard with a credit card. They ask for them now.
>>>Imagine how much longer it will make the lines at the booths.<<<
Why should it? Just have a supply of pre-loaded single rides on hand, shouldn't take any longer than selling a token.
Peace,
ANDEE
The whole idea of having the MVM's is to make the line at the token booth shorter. The more people that wait on line, the more crowded the line is. And that is what makes people annoyed. The waiting.
And if more people bought a $15 card or a 7 day card, That means that person probably won't have to wait on line tomorrow. and the line will be a little shorter.
Wait, you can just refill a empty Metrocard and put $1.50 on it. I've done it before, you just go to refill card, go to other amounts, put 1.50 and that's it
If one enjoys waiting on line to add $1.50 each and everytime they wish to ride the subway, Go ahead. Just remember the more money you put on a card, the less times you will find yourself waiting on a long unmoving line with the train in the station closing its doors and the police are standing between where you are and the turnstiles is. Not to mention the 10% bonus which enables you to get a FREE ride once in a while.
Lets say one person, Person 'X' has $1.50 on a Metrocard and 'X' needs only one fare to add [for a bus-subway transfer], then it makes sense but you don't know if 'X' rides the system every day or often rather. If the same person needs a next card, then it would be best to buy it in advance, but not all people do that, maybe so they don't misplace it over time.
OK, time for the Mouse to speculate:
Tokens will be quietly withdrawn from sale a few days before the fare hike takes effect - and before the date is actually announced. Geese will then be directed to the MVMs for single fare purchases.
No new tokens will be issued, and the token slot on all turnstiles will be deactivated during the time between their withdrawl from sale and the effective date of the fare hike.
During the period between deactivation of the token slots and the fare hike it will be possible to exchange tokens for single-ride cards, one to a customer, at the token booths. Single ride cards will not be sold by the booths, only offered in exchange for a token. Customers wishing to purchase a single ride card will be directed to the MVMs.
Tokens will be exchanged for 60 days after the new fare takes effect, after which time they will be worthless. Bulk exchanges from existing authorized resellers (100 or more tokens) will be done at 370 Jay Street or some other designated location. Tokens will continue to be accepted as payment ($1.50 each) at the booths during this same interval when applied to the purchase of a Metrocard valued at $20 or more. After that, you're out of luck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd speculate differently.
Tokens will be withdrawn for sale a short time before the fare hike takes effect. Tokens will be usable on the subway until the very minute of the fare hike, after which all turnstiles will say NO TOKENS on their display.
Both before and after the changeover, tokens can be traded in at booths for Metrocards (you can do that now, BTW, you could do that always). After the fare hike, PLASTIC metrocards valued at whatever the new fare will be will be available only for token trade-ins. About 60-90 days after the fare hike, token trade-ins will end and so will new plastic cards for less than double the new fare. People will have to go to HQ to trade in tokens for cash.
Tokens will be accepted on the bus at their old rate for some time to come.
I'd speculate differently.
Tokens will be withdrawn for sale a short time before the fare hike takes effect. Tokens will be usable on the subway until the very minute of the fare hike, after which all turnstiles will say NO TOKENS on their display.
A reasonable approach, presuming that the turnstiles can be set up to physically block the token or return it to a change cup... I haven't paid enough attention to their construction to know if that's possible. My speculation was based on the assumption that the only way to block token acceptance was to physically remove or cover the token slot.
Both before and after the changeover, tokens can be traded in at booths for Metrocards (you can do that now, BTW, you could do that always). After the fare hike, PLASTIC metrocards valued at whatever the new fare will be will be available only for token trade-ins.
With or without payment of additional fare? (In other words, will one token equal one card or will you have to pay the difference?)
I would also doubt that plastic cards would be used, unless they were set up to not have the transfer capability (since the tokens being exchanged didn't have that capability either).
About 60-90 days after the fare hike, token trade-ins will end and so will new plastic cards for less than double the new fare. People will have to go to HQ to trade in tokens for cash.
Tokens will be accepted on the bus at their old rate for some time to come.
I hadn't thought about the bus system (I rode the bus two weeks ago for the first time in many, many years, and then only because Jr. and I had Fun Passes and decided to save ourselves a 15 block walk that way). But I still think that tokens will be declared valueless fairly soon, if not as quickly as I had originally speculated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All turnstiles include a coin return dish. Insert a dime and see the display say COIN RETURNED. I've of course tried that approach myself. :-)
The return dish faces the left side, that is the one you'd walk through.
I believe the MTA still trades in tokens at HQ for whatever their last value is.
They then sell them at the transit museum gift shop for $1.75 :-(
Yes, I read it in today's Daily News and they say it come come as soon as April but its more likely that it will be raised by 25 cents. As a result, Mayor Doomberg's popularity plummeted to 41% b/c of all his proposals and the usual saying continues "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer". Had he used some of his earnings, he could fix the crisis and avoid all these unnecessary cuts. So that means:
Express buses go back to $4
7 day cards may go to $20 or $22 if the crunch gets worse
30 day cards may go to $73 or AS HIGH as $80 if it gets worse
The MTA needs to cut it's sky high labor costs by modernising it's oprerations.
Throwing more money at the situation is like throwing more fuel onto the fire.
The facts are simple. The MTA needs to pay its workers a fair salary to insure proper operations, but it needs to eliminate, consolidate unneeded outdated operations.
1)Consolidate adminstative offices
2)Close most token booths
3)Reduce the train crews to one form two where ever possible.
4)modernize the way buses are tracked and monitored on route.
I have said other things that the MTA could do to save money but its in another topic. If I find it I will paste it here.
I have said other things that the MTA could do to save money.
If the MTA had worked more often on and/or around the clock whenever possible, they could have saved millions of dollars and would have prevented budget overruns on projects all over the city over the years. Also, they could shut SOME token booths, cut subway & bus service that MIGHT be unnecessary, reduce spending on subway cars and reduce electricity on part time/closed areas.
One startling fact about the MTA shortfall is that much of the shortfall is due to interest payments on all the debt they have run up in the last 5-10 years. Although I enjoy the fancy new tile jobs on many stations, in some cases they were not entirely neeeded. A good example would be the 6th aveanue express stations. It seems to me all they did was replace the old tiles over the track bed with some new simialarly colored tiles.
The remodling to make stations ADA complient and to remove strutural problems and improve usability and less on fancy floor tiles.
By making stations say ADA complinet in Manhattan the mta can eliminate duplicate bus routes. The whole reason we built a subway was to take the traffic off the streets
The remodling to make stations ADA complient and to remove strutural problems and improve usability and less on fancy floor tiles.
And the money lost from those fancy floor tiles due to lawsuits, of which I'm sure they must have had quite a few. I've almost busted my @$$ quite a few times when it rains.
I agree with you on points 1, 3 and 4 But in regards to 2:
How would you recommend closing most token booths?
>>> How would you recommend closing most token booths? <<<
Let's face it, some day, the token booths will go the way of the ticket choppers, and all trains will be OPTO. But it certainly cannot be done rapidly enough to be an answer to this budget crunch. I would guess it will take at least 25-30 years and extensive capital outlays to reach that status.
Tom
And let's not forget gatemen and "pushers" ... they're gone too. But agreed, the system will not tolerate this happening quickly nor will the geese customers. But it will happen slowly, a handful of booths at a time. And yes, it won't make a dent in the costs of the system. Right now that BIG cost is acquiring new cars. I'd expect that's the FIRST place the hatchet swings, inventing a new historical term for the system, "deferred purchases."
If there must be booth closings, start with those that don't do much business. Nothing worse than passing by a booth where the agent there hasn't seen a soul all night.
Had he used some of his earnings, he could fix the crisis and avoid all these unnecessary cuts.
? You want the mayor to contribute billions of $ of his own money to cover the city budget deficit? He's the mayor, not the city's treasure chest. =)
Anyway, even if Bloomberg donated ALL of his substantial wealth directly to NYC, it wouldn't be enough to cover the city's expected budget shortfall over the next 2 years.
No fare hike is pleasant, but I do not want to see service reductions. I hate to say this, but it might be necessary to raise the fare to $2.00 to maintain the same level of serivce, though if they're careful, the same level of service could possibly be maintained with a $1.75 fare provided that they cut waste.
#3 West End Jeff
With the MetroCard concept now in full swing, it's time to make NYC subway commuting fair and equitable based on how far the customer travels. If PATCO can do it, so can NYCT. Now you say PATCO is small. Yes it is. But what about the Washington METRO? Sure it's not nearly as big as NYCT but its' size expands every few years. Passengers will just have to get used to using their MetroCards to exit as well as enter and will have to get used to vending machines to add money to their cards so they can exit if needed. If Washington D.C. area commuters and tourists can with deal it, then New Yorkers will have to learn how to deal with it as well, no matter what their level of intelligence and command of the English language is.
This was discussed several days ago....it won't work in NY nor will it sell. The concept in NY has always been one fare no matter how far you travel (the Rockaways were an exception a few years back but eventually that was eliminated).
You want to see this moronic system at work...go to London and watch the back ups as passengers have to insert their tickets to exit as well as enter. Also, the cost of administering the system is astronomic compared to the simple concept in NY...one trip one fare.
And the system is just plain dumb. For example, in London if you travel 2 stops on the Picadilly ine from Barons Court to Glouester Rd. you get nailed for a 2 zone fare while if you travel from Earl's Court all the way to Tower Hill, a far much further tip, it is a one zone fare. And what if you are traveling from Flusing to Brooklyn via Manhattan....depending on how you choose to go it might be longer or shorter than other rides.
It's a stupid method and will never see the light of day in New York, I guarantee that.
I don't see a problem in inserting a MetoCard in order to exit the system. It would also be a security/safety enhancement.
perhaps you should come to SF and watch the scene at Montgomery AM rush (the most used station on BART)
Wouldn't be popular. Thirty years ago, the most affluent people lived further out, but now they live closer in. If the train has to leave the terminal anyway, someone boarding in Coney Island doesn't cost the TA any more than someone boarding in Park Slope.
On the other hand, peak hour pricing might have an economic basis. The TA would be much better off if it could run fewer trains at rush hour, or have less crowded trains on lines that are maxed out. Off peak riders are a boon to the TA, and more trains then mean more frequent service.
rush hour surcharge is a ripofr. The well off lawyer can slouch into the office--the cashier who works for s%&t wages punches a clock at a fixd hour. Watching DC Metro victims queueing up waiting for the end of the surcharge period to swipe in is instructive.
Actually, there isn't much queueing up in DC at the changeover. Folks just tend to accept the fare that is offered. And a rush hour surcharge is an accurate reflection of the increased cost of the service.
That said, I'm not sure it's an appropriate solution for New York. Certainly the implementation of an exit swipe would cause significantly greater delays to the customers and would, I suspect, impede pedestrian traffic well beyond safe limits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If someone has the time to spare and is going to get to the Metro at 6:50 and really wants to wait, I don't blame them. Some people do wait, but only if its going to be close. They will not stay at the office from 4:30 until 7 just to avoid paying a rush hour fare.
the AFC system can handle time of day fares. I see a problem though- people would claim the turnstile took off the wrong fare and we'd get tons of gripes. I can also see crowds hanging around the booth until the peak period ends.
On paper. time of day fares sound great but in practice we face a logistics nightmare.
How about this (assuming an off-peak fare of $2.00 and a peak fare of $2.25):
Announce that peak fares are in effect 6:30-9:30am and 4:00-7:00pm (or whatever is decided). In fact, program the turnstiles to be more lenient. Keep the fare at $2.00 until 6:35. Then increase the fare by one cent each minute until 7:00. At 9:00, start ramping down; at 9:25, the off-peak fare will be back in effect. Repeat in the afternoon.
That would eliminate the problems of crowds waiting for the magic moment and of clocks off by a few minutes.
The real nightmare is exit swipes in a system that has trouble dealing with exiting crowds even without exit swipes.
If it's inconvenient, then the public will just have to get used to it. If you put a uniform fare on BART (pay when entering) they'll lose a lot of revenue.
The main problem is there is not enough turnstyles or room to install enough turnstyles to handle the capacity.
It will never happen
The main problem is there is not enough turnstyles or room to install enough turnstyles to handle the shear volume of people exiting and having to swipe.
It will never happen
That would favor Manhattan, people in the outer boroughs would get screwed over.
NO NO NO How many times must we hae this debate? First of all, please explain how to cope with the immense delay on exit at stations like GCT in rush. Secondly, if you think there i 'inter borough' squabbling over service levels, imagine the scene when fare diffrentials are added to the mix. The whole value of the Metrocard free transfer to buses was to ELIMINATE double fare neighborhoods. Bringing them back is a mistake.
Sorry, I was unaware this was previously discussed. You know, I have a life off the computer and SubTalk and many weeks I only can post on the weekends, unlike some people on this board who only post M-F and do it on company time! New Yorkers should to learn to slow down and act more civilized in the subway, learn to get their asses out of bed a few minutes earlier, but human behavior in the subway is uncivilised and will never change. I allow for delays when I go to work and so should others. At GCT, there are many banks of turnstiles. To maintain order, some should be exit only and others should be entrance only. Maybe that should be done right now to have a sense of order! With that said, my opinion would never come to pass anyway because you can only do this with a new system, you can't impliment something like this to an existing system because riders and politicians would not accept it. Double fare zones would not apply since this dead idea of mine would charge fares based on mileage, buses transfers not withstanding. The more mileage you need to travel to get to your destination, the more you pay. Again, don't take my original post too seriously since it would never fly.
New Yorkers should to learn to slow down and act more civilized in the subway
I think that everything should be done to allow New Yorkers to speed up even MORE. Progress has always meant more speed. I'd rather spend a few extra minutes at home in bed than in a crowded subway train. Commutation is not a pleasant experience.
learn to get their asses out of bed a few minutes earlier
NOT GOOD. Back in the old days when the only way to travel was by foor or on one's ass, travel was measured in miles per DAY! I certainly do not want to go back to those days and I'm sure most people will agree. I hope we can move forward to the point where we can measure speed in miles per MINUTE (I'd prefer kilometers per minute though).
New York owes its existence to speed. Do you think that 8 million people would live in New York if people traveled at 5 MPH?
but human behavior in the subway is uncivilised and will never change.
Uncivilized does not mean the same as fast. I've made an art of running to make transfers without bumping into a single person, does that make me uncivilized?
I allow for delays when I go to work and so should others.
But the MTA shouldn't go ahead and do things that increase delays and force people to allow for even greater delays.
The earlier you come to some place, the more time you waste and time is a finite, non-renewable resource that must be cherished at all costs more than anything else. Many jobs will dock pay for people coming in late, but few if any will pay you more for coming in early.
Bill, I too have a 'life' or so I like to think. As to previous discussion, you happen to have hit on one of my pet peeves. As someone who discovered subways/'L's in Chicago and later lived in Philly and NYC I was furious when BART opened with its cumbersome and IMHO vicious distance based fares. Because of politics trips are NOT equally priced by distnce but by a complex formula which results in many inequities. Add to that the notorious balkiness of the faregates, TVM's, and change machines, and you might see the idea differently.
As to the 'ethics' of the concept, on first look you might think generally more well to do suburbanites should pay more. The problem becomes more complex when you factor in the 'domestics' and tradesworkers reverse commuting from the urban cores. In the NY case, conversely, the idea would hurt mostly the residents in the outer boro's who already have a longer ride if they work in Manhattan, and although you might think this fair as they pay lower rent to live in the outskirts(sometimes), that assumes they should then spend otherwise discretionary money on transit.
Although electronics of all sorts have become phenominally cheaper, I still think the cost of exit swipe equipment is not trivial. In turn the long lines to exit swipe are a miasma. Many times, one swipes in with enough but find we must "addfare" at destinations. Because the faregates do a lousy job of printing stored value, it is often difficult to know you are short until the gate rejects you. Then you apologise to the crowds behind you and go to the machines. I will say, my initial reaction to the MTA's migration to Metrocard was precisely the fear that they would move to the distance ripoff after they kill the token. The addition of bus trips via Metrocard was a sixty year late detail of "unification" which other cities have implemented with paper--CTA for example in the fifties when they integrated CSL, The Boulevard Route, and the L.
here is a little known fact of turnstile operations-
Even now we can make any turnstile exit only, entrance only or both exit and entrance. When a turnstile is availabel for entry or exit a green arrow points the way. Here is the secret- Even if we close a turnstile to entry and exit and red lights along with the universal stop bar showing, the turnstile can still be sued for exit. Ecen HEETs (unless chained shut).
I am guessing it must a a fire safety issue.
My concern over exit swipe is crowd control-- I can see stations like Times S quare or Grand Central or even Cortlandt IRT or BMT (When the WTC was there). If you treid to enter or exit the statioon whent he crowd was going thew other way you had to wait-- the crowd wont let you move! Let's say I made half the turnstiles exit only and let's assume they were fixed so you coudl not exit from an entry turnstile some would still try to exit through an entry turnstile and some would complain they were trapped.
NYC people want Transit their way. AT night I have to use my deal tray (like the bank drive up window). They complain it is too slow and insist I open the regular window-- I ingore them. I expect an eventual complaint but the pick will soon be over and I'll go back to Lunches.
In DC, all our faregates are one way except for the wheelchair faregate, which goes both ways. You can't go the wrong way. Period. End of disucssion. Maybe they should redesign the turnstiles so that even if the S/A sets them to be entry only, they unlock if the alarm in the booth is activated.
"At GCT, there are many banks of turnstiles. To maintain order, some should be exit only and others should be entrance only."
That's fine, but there just aren't enough turnstiles at GCT if you're going to make an exit take as long as an entry. At 8:40 AM or 5:10 PM at the main exit near the shuttle passageway every turnstile is in use all the time, and some are already one-way to help speed the flow.
You need MORE TURNSTILES. Where will they go? You need a totally new exit from the subway there, excavated out underneath the hotel.
Union Square's east exits have a similar problem. There just is no space to add more turnstiles, and the current ones are in use all the time even with exits going quickly.
I would like to see this, both because it would make economic sense and because it would benefit me personally.
But it's politically and logistically impossible.
Forgetting about the politics, the capital costs would be tremendous. There are a sizable number of stations where you would have to nearly double the number of turnstiles because they can barely handle the crowds even with exiting passengers moving through really quickly.
In a few stations, you would also have to do major physical renovations to actually provide the space for the additional turnstiles. GCT and Union Square come to mind, and I am sure there are others that I just don't happen to frequent in rush hour.
They really should raise the fare to $2.50 per ride. The MTA must have the resourses to "maintain" the current transportation system.
However, the Federal Gov't should step in and allow the taxpaying public to offset the increases in Mass Transportation by allowing a "line item" tax deduction on their Income Tax Returns. This line item deduction should not be "limited" to those that file a long form but to all taxpapers who file a 1040, 1040A, 1040EZ.
After all its the people who use "Mass Trasportation" that help save energy and keep the pollution levels down.
The only tax breaks currently allowed by the Feds are for those individuals who use vehicles in "conducting business". These folks are allowed to write off fuel, tolls, maintenace, insurance and are also allowed to deduct the depreciation on their cars and trucks.
So IMHO it would make sense to give the poor working class and even playing field when it comes to helping the transportion network of not only NYC but other regions of the USA as well.
Any comments??
The only tax breaks currently allowed by the Feds are for those individuals who use vehicles in "conducting business". These folks are allowed to write off fuel, tolls, maintenace, insurance and are also allowed to deduct the depreciation on their cars and trucks.
The above is because it is a cost of doing business just as a corporation is allowed to deduct. A business is taxed on its proffits not it's revenues.
In addition if a business owner uses mass transit to travel from place to place those costs are also tax deductable.
Transitchek already offers a full tax deduction for mass transit. Get your facts straight
Some of the of facts are....Not all organizations offer Transitchek to their employee's.
IMHO I personally know Professionals such as Doctors and Lawyers and consultants that have multiple locations to travel to (and also salespeople), and the like still like the the status attached to having the ability to drive to work and use their personal vehicles for the tax write-off.
I still feel strongly that the MTA should increase the fare to at the minimum to $2.50. With the additional funds, the possibility would then exist to a greater extent in having all lines funded. This might in turn allow the system the opportunity to try and run at optimum efficency rather than "pasting and stapeling" and shifting resourses to other lines as we are now experiencing with the subways.
I know it is very unpopular to raise fares...but FACE REALITY.
We would like to see the "G" train back to Queens, the Culver Express, a few more tunnels for added service etc...etc...etc... but the end of the story is the MTA needs funds to leverage any bond issues for future projects.
Just heard on the news that a MTA worker got hit and possibly killed by a s/b #3 train at 96St. Right now 1 service is suspended both directions btwn 42-137Sts. 3 service suspended btwn 14-148Sts. #2 service is running on the Lex both directions. More info later.
Yes. Signal Maintainer killed by S/B #3 train entering 96th Street on Track 2. T/O did not see any flags or lamps or people working on the tracks (they were working apparently on Track 3).
That's horrible.
My condolesences to his family and friends...
It seems as though the past year has been a bad one for this. That's three or four track workers (one a contractor) killed, isn't it? As I recall from Track Safety training, that's way above what it was, and of course way above what it should be.
Usually one a year or so?
Wow ... sorry to hear that. Adjacent rail raises the question of why. :(
That is indeed sad news.
While we don't know the reason why he was on track 2 it only goes to show that working on the tracks you can't afford to be distracted.
Dumb question: does signal maintenance have to be done in the middle of a weekday afternoon? I've also seen these guys on the Queens Blvd. and Broadway (BMT) lines recently, and the trains never slowed down.
Although their title is Signal Maintainer, they are also responsible for responding to and repairing defective signals throughout the day. (I don't know the circumstances of this accident, so I'm not sure what role they were fulfilling out there.) Maintenance, per se, takes place outside of the rush hours, barring any unforeseen signal failures. They should display a flashing yellow lamp in approach to their work site on the track they are working on. Trains on that track are supposed to slow to 10 mph when they see the flashing yellow light.
And if I had a dollar for every time they didn't flag correctly, I could go to Disney World every year (five bucks alone today). From a T/O's POV, there are very few things worse than someone from Signals or Track popping out in front of a moving train to wave a flashlight.
Tell me about it :-)
perhaps it is time for all NYCT employees to be trained in flagging. Non-track titles (such as Station Agent) would get training that would not qualify for flagging jobs or track access. I have had to flag trains twice. Once for reports of an unauthorized on the tracks after polcie had been summoned and a train was approaching. A second time I saw a homeless persone nter the track area.
This would seem to coincide with the announcments I heard at 59/CC @ around 1230 today, unfortunatly.
Peace,
ANDEE
My condolences to the family and friends.
According to the announcements at Atlantic, there was no 1 or 3 service at all (yet 4 trains were still terminating at Atlantic -- hmmm) and 2's were running via the East Side. A few minutes later, the announcements changed: 1 and 3 trains were terminating at 34th and 2's were still running via the East Side. I boarded a 3, and while pulling out of Clark a few minutes past 1, the C/R announced that regular service was restored.
Mitch45 will be happy to learn that the announcements at Atlantic did direct passengers to the BMT.
I was thinking about what may be going on at Worth Street station. I, too, doubt that it is going back into revenue service.
Could these be occurring?
(1) Lead paint/asbestos removal: (this is also going on at the Bowling Green shuttle platform, which is also closed.) True, passengers don't use the platform but transit workers do, especially when there is track work going on nearby, when its used to store supplies. Also, loose asbestos from the station could get blown through the tunnel into Brooklyn Bridge station, where it could be inhaled by unsuspecting passengers.
(2) Water leakage repair: this has to be done even in abandoned facilities, or else water will weaken the cement walls and there could be a cave-in.
(3) Closure of open spaces on the abandoned platforms, for security purposes: No sense having any open spaces there (abandoned supply rooms, power rooms, et al) when a terrorist could use it to plant a bomb.
Can anyone think of any others?
I can't see reopening Worth for any reason. The two platforms are not of equal length (the uptown side is shorter than the downtown side) and the Chambers Street entrance to Bklyn Bridge station is virtually across the street from Worth.
Besides, does the MTA have the money do undertake such a project?
More than likely it is work for a movie shoot, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Twice I've sent photos to Railpace. This time I included a return envelope. They returned them with the comment, send slides not negitives.
What I did was take the negitives that I selected to a store & had them put in slide frames.
Question: what's the difference between a slide & a negitive.
A slide is a positive image, just like the print would be, only small and transparent for projection.
Mark
Slides are positive, negatives are negative.
Hold one of each up to the light to see what I mean.
A negative has the colors inversed. If you look at a slide you'll see the colors as they should be. If you project light through a slide it looks "right".
Slides are the prefered media for publication.
Thanks Dave, and the rest of you for the input !
I was really amused with all the peddlers selling batteries on the subway recently. Doesn't seem like a very profitable venture but you gotta do what you gotta do. My question: Does the MTA frown on this or not care? Also, what's the strangest of most amusing thing you've ever seen for sale on the subway?
Once I saw someone selling batteries here in Philly, but usually it's incense being sold. Go figure.
Mark
Selling batteries ain't crazy. Selling babies and shrunken heads would be crazy. No, I haven't seem them selling those items yet.
--Brian
I was really amused with all the peddlers selling batteries on the subway recently
Shhh - they're under contract with Railfan groups - emergency supply of batteries for our digital cams
If I recall correctly, MTA doesn't allow any kind of solicitation inside fare control, officially.
As we all know, theory and reality are often different things...
I once saw a woman selling tiny little screwdrivers, the sort that would be used to repair eyeglasses. Most of the vendors I see on trains are peddling dead batteries and stale candy.
Most of the vendors I see on trains are peddling dead batteries and stale candy.
And the scary part about that candy sold on the subway is who knows where that candy has been before you get it.
Acutally, I really don't think the condition of the candy itself can be questioned as long as the packaging is not disturbed. Regardless, I will never dish out any candy for those poor and needy basketball teams. And why do those people bother selling those batteries anyway? Alas, even I have fallen victim to such a foolish transaction. I guess it doesn't matter...
I do wish the MTA would work on this situation, but I'd assume they're too busy with that budget deficit...
Believe it or not TA does try to stop them. Unfortunately by the time the cops show up, the peddlers are gone. Or they put their batteries away and pretend to be riding the trains home and don't speak a word of English.
It's not the kids selling the candy on the subway that its the problem, it's the other peddlers, where who knows where they got the candy from.
The fundraiser candy that kids sell is probably fresh. Hey, I used to do that myself when I was a kid, although I didn't do it on the train, I did it at the exit doors at my home subway station. They had to pass my friend and I to get out. Two exits - two kids selling candy.
How do you know the batteries are dead?
Same way people know the candy is fresh.
Soon after her pockets go KA-CHING!
The Walkman go "Wind Beneaaaaaat....pbbt"
The batteries aren't dead. They don't last as long as regular batteries, but you get 12 for $1, so it's totally worth it.
I beg to differ. The batteries hardly last long to ever warrant a dollar. Using 2 double AA's for my Walkman. Only after 10 mintues did they go out. So much for that, huh?
It's 12 for a Dollar
Even if you use all 12 in the same time you would use 2, it's cheaper than buying 2 good batteries.
I bought them about a month ago. I use them in the remote control for my DVR. I just replaced them for the first time yesterday.
>>> I bought them about a month ago. I use them in the remote control for my DVR. I just replaced them for the first time yesterday. <<<
Hardly a bargain if you only get a month's use in a remote control. It means you have to put up with the problem of having the remote control not work once a month, and then having to get and replace the batteries, probably at the most inconvenient time.
Do you remember the parody of the Eveready commercial, probably on SNL, which showed a group of old folks sitting around a table and one by one dropping face down on the table until only one remained, with the pitch being, "When you want a battery for your pacemaker, choose the one that just keeps going?"
Tom
The "cost" of my replacing the batteries often enough is almost nothing, so it doesn't override the cheapness of the batteries. The batteries are always in a drawer in the same room.
When I bought them, I hadn't the slightest intention of using them in a high power consumption device.
P.S. It's a DVR, there's never a most inconvenient time, since I can always press instant replay.
Ok, then. If your batteries undergo that kind of usage, it's understandable. But for the rest of us, the batteries can be shoved up those a-holes!
You don't have remote controls and other low power consumption devices?
I have a battery powered PDA (that is, not rechargable). Even if that sucker took AA, not AAA batteries, I wouldn't use subway batteries for that.
Of course I do. Yes, I have used those batteries for that.
Back in 1983 I saw a man selling bull whips on the "A" platform at 34 St. He'd snap one occasionally. He did a brisk business.
I assure you, when we see illegal vendors in stations we do call police- the vendor will be removed from the system. Usually by the time to police show up (if they do) the vendor is long gone. The batteries they sell are not even for public sale-- they are OEM batteries for use when a store sells you a devbice needing batetries and they give yyou free batteries or reduced price batteries. If you do buy ther batriea (they are always Duracell or duracell lookalikes) check the date if they are genuine duracell. I have seen duracell clones with the name Plenticell and look just liek duracell.
Anytime you buy from such a vendor it is your risk. If they harass you coem to the booth or train crew.
I saw a Purto Rican kid peddling a whip for $2.00 on the Canarsie line once. He must have asked everyone in the car, "You wanna buy a whip? Two dollahs." That includes me.
Who is paying for the calls that are made inside token booths. I always see someone asking directions and the clerk is on the phone laughing talking to friends. Rate increase? Please just cut out the phone calls in the booths and maybe a few millions will be saved and people could get the proper attention they deserve when asking for directions.
Phone calls made from the token booths are not outside calls. You can't call outside the syatem. You can't call home or the corner store. True employees call their friends also working and they'll talk a while.
And if there were no telephones in the booths, when people start wondering what happened to the trains, how are employees going to find out why?
Aren't you assuming the worst of Station Agents? We can't make phone calls outside the system, and a few instances, I'm on the phone with a supervisor who has a question for me, or I have a problem in the booth that needs to be rectified. Don't think that every phone call is an unimportant one; you might be surprised.
-Stef
We use the phone to call in:
turndstile problems
MVM problems
computer problems
the supervisor with a question or supply need.
the field office after a block is over.
to get our job for the next day if we are extra
the supervisor asks for information
the union rep with a question or concern
A/C or heat problems
vermin problems
request a "comfort" (bathroom break)
union rep asks a question
elevator problems
escaaltor problems
the tower -where is the next train?
do you ever get a coffee break-- we dont. We are not even guaranteed our 30 minute lunch if our lunch relief is "pulled" (told to do another job by supervision) or if the lunch is out sick or runs late due to train problems or G.O.s- oftenm times if there id as major G.O. ther supervisor tells the lunch releif to skip parts of the schedule or to go to a certain location with a crowd and help there.If the lunch relief has to walk an employee to a booth nd the employee does not show up the luncxh has to open that booth.
I guess we better check on you- do you make personal calls or use the office copier or take a pen, pencil or paper clip- Youa erw stealing :)
I could go on. The other day the elevator alarm went off so I hit the EBCS as per policy and I had to tell a custopmer to waikt. It turned out my E/O turned off the elevator to come to the booth to aks a question . I advised to use the intercom.
MTA has actually come up with 3 not 2 options.
http://www.mta.info/mta/comments.htm
Arti
Option A
A base MTA New York City Transit fare of $1.75, with an average fare of $1.14
A 10% increase in railroad fares
A Bridges and Tunnels security toll surcharge of $0.25 in each direction
Significant reductions in weekend bus and subway service and moderate reductions on weekdays
Cutting 33 peak/off-peak railroad trains
Closing ticket windows and waiting rooms
Reductions in equipment and station cleaning
Additional intergovernmental aid
Option B
A base New York City Transit fare of $2.00, with an average fare of $1.24
New deeper MetroCard-based fare discounts
A 20% increase in railroad fares
A Bridges and Tunnels security toll surcharge of $0.50 in each direction
Additional intergovernmental aid
Option C
A base New York City Transit fare of $2.00, with an avg. fare of $1.39
A proportional increase in MetroCard passes
A proportional increase in railroad fares
A Bridges and Tunnels security toll surcharge of $0.50 in each direction
No additional intergovernmental aid
Increased need to independently fund impact of economy, intergovernmental aid cutbacks and security needs
I'd go with Option B. There's a way to get passed it to a degree with MetroCard then.
"I'd go with Option B."
The trouble is Option B sounds like code for "more federal state or local aid", when the real answer is there will be less.
I hope they raise the price of some of these passes since those people pay less. It should be expected that they pay less but there had better be some raise. My suggestion would be (assumming fares go up to 2 dollars) to make the one day pass cost 7 dolars the one week pass cost 25 dollars, and the 28 day pass cost 92 dollars with express bus rides included.
My proposal would be to:
Eliminate the 15$ MetroCard discount.
Then raise the token price and single ride MetroCard price to 1.75
20% or so increase in pass prices.
A freeze on all new rolling stock purchases and signal "improvements" until the recession is over. Cancel whatever existing contracts can be cancled.
A freeze on all new rolling stock purchases and signal "improvements" until the recession is over. Cancel whatever existing contracts can be cancled.
I don't know if that is a good idea. That seems like a step closer towards a return to the 70's.
What's wrong with the subways having a little colour?
You know, I jsut realized that the easiest way to defeat graffitti is to have a system wide graffitti paint scheme. Nobody would ever be able to tell if a subway car was tagged and the taggers wouldn't be able to have their "art" stand out any more. Also, if a graffitti scheme was normal, it wouldn't symbolize crime and decay. The only way to Vandalize cars would probably be to paint them solid colours.
Option A has a subway fare increase of 17% and a railroad fare increase of 10%.
Option B has a subway fare increase of 33% and a railroad fare increase of 20%.
What's wrong with this picture?
Option A has a subway fare increase of 17% and a railroad fare increase of 10%.
You're looking at the cash fare. The real increase, taking discounts into consideration, is 9.6% on the subway, 10% on the railroad.
Option B has a subway fare increase of 33% and a railroad fare increase of 20%
For Option B, taking discounts into consideration, is 19.2% on the subway, 20% on the railroad.
What's wrong with this picture?
Your misquotation of the figures.
I fail to see why any of these options are needed. All evidence indicates that economic conditions are slowly but surely improving. As they do, the MTA's financial picture will improve too. Just waiting a little bit longer may remove the need to take any action.
The MTA's been in trouble for three years now. It started with the 2000-2004 Capital Plan, where a $3+ billion chunk was missing and several agencies caught the gap, including the RPA and the State Comptroller.
Look back three years...too many big projects have "revenue bonds" on them. How do you pay those back? Increased revenue. How do you increase revenue?
That's where we are now.
Lots of amazing decisions were made in the past three years. You had huge increases in debt, including the MTA Capital Plan and the City's cashing in of part of the Tobacco Settlement. People stopped contributing to the pension plan, and handed out huge increases in benefits, claiming high stock prices made these "free." You had the whole STAR program, which allowed a big increase in already high school spending outside NYC. And you had that Medicaid deal, which increased already high Medicaid reimbursements, primarily for the "benefit" of NYC (though substantially funded by NYC).
Did you vote for any of the incumbents in recent elections? I didn't.
I submitted this comment to the MTA on their new fare proposals:
All of the options, and Option C, in particular, raise a question about the calculation of the increases.
Option C would raise the NYCT cash fare to $2.00, the average fare to $1.39 and the railroad fares "a proportional amount." Earlier, in the rationale for an incraese, we are told that MetroCard and other discounts, such as the elimination of double fares on bus/subway rides, have lowered the average NYCT fare from $1.38 to $1.04.
If this is accurate, then the average NYCT fare under Option C would go frm $1.38 in 1996 to $1.39 in 2003.
The commuter roads, on other hand, enjoyed no such effective fare reduction, so where is the rationale to raise the railroad fares 33%?
In fact, from 1996 to 2002, when the average transit fare (non counting student discounts) declined from $1.378 to $1.046 (-24%), the average LIRR fare went from $4.14 to $4.19 (+1%), Harlem $3.96 to $3.97 (even), Hudson $4.65 to $4.83 (+9.6%) and New Haven $4.89 to $5.20 (+9.4%).
So your point is, the NYCT fare should be increased beyond $2.00, and the commuter rail fares not at all? Do we need to go back to the prior increase in 1995, which was a higher percent for the city? Do we need to adjust for the fact that much of the 1968 MTA plan for the LIRR was implemented, while much of it for the city was not, with East Side Access far ahead of the Second Avenue Subway and more likely to occur? Etc.
I have a different suggestion.
Let the subway, the LIRR AND MetroNorth increase their fares until they cover the cost of operating, maintaining, and purchasing (for cash at a steady clip) the subway and rail cars, power, fare collection and sale, and "station agents." That's what I refer to as "auto equivalent" costs. Have the bus fare match the subway fare.
Let taxes cover the cost of maintaining the right or way, like public roads, and the stations, like public parks. We'll assume that taxes paid by non-transit riders to cover this is "rent" due to transit riders for giving up their share of the road.
I'll accept that as fair, whatever it is.
So your point is, the NYCT fare should be increased beyond $2.00, and the commuter rail fares not at all?
No, my point is that trhe railroads and the transit system are on different accounts and that needed increases in fares (or fare breaks) for each be based solely on the revenues and costs of each mode, not some "equivalent" or "proportionate" basis to appeal to political audiences.
We'll assume that taxes paid by non-transit riders to cover this is "rent" due to transit riders for giving up their share of the road.
Ah, begging the quesion. But, this brings up another issue. The claimed inequities in favor of the suburbs (such as the split of TBTA tolls) is a well-known mantra trotted out at every oppotunity, but those provisions put in quietly to favor the city are never publicized.
A major transit advocate, speaking to a city audience (at a seminar at which I was present), said that there would be major political trouble if motorists knew how much each gallon of gas was taxed for the Petroleum Business Tax (which is over and above the 8-cent plus gas tax and the sales tax) and what the split was from that tax on money going to the railroads and going to transit.
You know lots of figures, Larry. Do you know how much it is? Do you know what the railroad/tarnsit split is?
And you know which side of the City border pays for most of that tax.
(A major transit advocate, speaking to a city audience (at a seminar at which I was present), said that there would be major political trouble if motorists knew how much each gallon of gas was taxed for the Petroleum Business Tax (which is over and above the 8-cent plus gas tax and the sales tax) and what the split was from that tax on money going to the railroads and going to transit. You know lots of figures, Larry. Do you know how much it is? Do you know what the railroad/tarnsit split is?)
No. However, my tendency is to ignore one deal at a time issues like that, and the TBTA revenues, which can go on forever, and go to the bottom line. On an operating cost basis, city services cover more of their costs. However, the suburbs pay more in MTA taxes relative to the number of riders, and the commuter railroads to do better on an "auto equivalent basis" which eliminated the cost of longer rights of way and more stations relative to ridership. On the other hand, you have more riders in the city because more city residents are poor, and would gladly move to the suburbs if they weren't kept out.
My version of fair is what I placed in the prior post. As for what I think is fair IN GENERAL, I'll e-mail that to you.
(A major transit advocate, speaking to a city audience (at a seminar at which I was present), said that there would be major political trouble if motorists knew how much each gallon of gas was taxed for the Petroleum Business Tax (which is over and above the 8-cent plus gas tax and the sales tax) and what the split was from that tax on money going to the railroads and going to transit. You know lots of figures, Larry. Do you know how much it is? Do you know what the railroad/tarnsit split is?)
No. However, my tendency is to ignore one deal at a time issues like that, and the TBTA revenues, which can go on forever, and go to the bottom line.
I don't understand what you mean by that. Do you mean you think the PBT is a one-shot? It is an on-going tax, just like the TBTA tolls are an on-going revenue stream.
(I don't understand what you mean by that. Do you mean you think the PBT is a one-shot? It is an on-going tax, just like the TBTA tolls are an on-going revenue stream.)
My point is that the arguments can go one forever, because the political tendency is to grant eight little favors and offset them by nine little ripoffs etc. Ie. see the school aid formula. All that matters is the bottom line, not any one little revenue source. In fact, I'd argue that what matters is the bottom bottom line, for all revenue sources and all public services. And my views on that are well know. See "The Truth About the State of New York" at www.ipny.org under "Essays".
My point is that the arguments can go one forever, because the political tendency is to grant eight little favors and offset them by nine little ripoffs etc. Ie. see the school aid formula. All that matters is the bottom line, not any one little revenue source. In fact, I'd argue that what matters is the bottom bottom line, for all revenue sources and all public services.
In principle, I agree with that. But my point is that, in the New York press, and in the blatherings of advocacy groups, the inequities or "deals" or whatever you want to call them that favor the suburbs are trumpeted early and often. But those that favor the City, whether the PBT (14 cents on every gallon of gas, in addition to all the other federal and state gas taxes and sales tax) 85% to NYCT, 15% to the commuter roads) or "secret" deals (so secret the LIRR claimed not to know about) like $135 million dollars "loaned" to the NYCTA from the LIRR account, never see the light of day.
(But those that favor the City, whether the PBT (14 cents on every gallon of gas, in addition to all the other federal and state gas taxes and sales tax) 85% to NYCT, 15% to the commuter roads) or "secret" deals (so secret the LIRR claimed not to know about) like
$135 million dollars "loaned" to the NYCTA from the LIRR account, never see the light of day. )
Do you mean regular roads? Of course everyone and everything on Long Island travels over NYC roads, so I don't see how you separate that. Then you can get into the fact that NYC was forced to borrow its way out of the 1970s fiscal crisis while Nassau and other areas got cash grants, etc. Then you could talk about Medicaid. Then I could point out all those people who moved to the burbs, and left their elderly parents in NYC to charge Medicaid for care with 25 pecent local funding, and the low wage labor force that NYC must service but works out of town.
As I said, the bottom line. Send me an e-mail and I'll tell you what it is.
Of course everyone and everything on Long Island travels over NYC roads, so I don't see how you separate that.
What? Everyone and everything? Most Long Islanders (more than 3/4) also work on Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk Counties) and rarely ever go into the city. The LIRR claims that 85% of those who do go into the CBD use the railroad. Personally, I rarely ever travel on NYC roads. Really, the attitude of New Yorkers that they are the center of the universe gets a little irritating.
Then you can get into the fact that NYC was forced to borrow its way out of the 1970s fiscal crisis while Nassau and other areas got cash grants, etc.
You see where Nassau County services and taxes are going? And I live Suffolk, where we are facing our own budget problems, and no one is bailing us out.
Then you could talk about Medicaid. Then I could point out all those people who moved to the burbs, and left their elderly parents in NYC to charge Medicaid for care with 25 pecent local funding
Wow. Now we're parent abandoners too. Don't you know that when suburbanite parents get old, we put them on mountaintops for the vultures to eat?
If we accept your premise about elderly parents in the City (I moved my mother out to Long Island when I moved in 1972), didn't these parents also live in the City all their lives, like my father did? But when he died in Jackson Heights, he wasn't on Medicaid. The only special money he got was a payment of about $300 from the Victims Compensation Fund (which I think is state, anyway) the third time he was mugged in his early '80s by some NYC youths.
(Didn't these parents also live in the City all their lives, like my father did? But when he died in Jackson Heights, he wasn't on Medicaid.)
Times have changed. Now everyone is on Medicaid, and at double the national average in expenditures per recipient. That's where all the money is going.
Times have changed. Now everyone is on Medicaid, and at double the national average in expenditures per recipient. That's where all the money is going.
Which simply begs the question - why? New Yorkers don't appear to be less healthy than people in other states. Yet they seem to soak up health care services at a dizzying rate. Something is going on here, and I'd love to know what.
>>> they seem to soak up health care services at a dizzying rate. Something is going on here, and I'd love to know what. <<<
There are two possible explanations. The higher cost of living makes larger numbers of people "medically indigent," and there may be more medicaid mills that send out vans to recruit patients so the mills can run up fraudulent medicaid billing.
Tom
(There are two possible explanations. The higher cost of living makes larger numbers of people "medically indigent," and there may be more medicaid mills that send out vans to recruit patients so the mills can run up fraudulent medicaid billing.)
In the case of the elderly, its the vans. Both New York and California provided extensive at-home services to the elderly to keep them out of nursing homes. The share of California's elderly in nursing homes is below the national average, with its home health care expenditures are above. The share of New York's elderly in nursing homes is above average, and its home health care are one third of the national total, and its personal care expenditures are 50 percent of the national total.
Yet more people on Medicaid isn't the biggest difference. It's the cost per recipient. Average wages upstate are at or below the national average. Average wages downstate are 25 percent above average, if Wall Street is excluded. When I did research on the subject (1997 data), private health insurance costs were EXACTLY in proportion to that. Medicare (federal) reimbursements were similar. But New York was paying DOUBLE the national average, and far more than New Jersey, Mass, and PA. That was BEFORE the recent deal to increase reimbursements.
Multiply paying double the national average in payments by a somewhat greater than average number of recipients and a higher than average state (as opposed to federal) share and the state cost goes of the charts. Shift this excess burden to local governments, and you'll see why local property taxes are skyrocketing.
The City Council is saying the NYC property tax increase is going to services. Which services have rising spending? Medicaid and pensions are absorbing everything. At least the Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk county executives are willing to identify the source of the problem. Medicaid and the State of New York.
There are two possible explanations [for runaway Medicaid spending]. The higher cost of living makes larger numbers of people "medically indigent," and there may be more medicaid mills that send out vans to recruit patients so the mills can run up fraudulent medicaid billing.
Indeed the latter situation is quite common in New York. You might call it an inversion of classic Adam Smith economics, with supply driving demand rather than the other way around. Similar scenarios exist with other forms of social and health services too.
Do we need to adjust for the fact that much of the 1968 MTA plan for the LIRR was implemented, while much of it for the city was not, with East Side Access far ahead of the Second Avenue Subway and more likely to occur?
If this is so, the 1968 LIRR plans were modest. There were electrifications on the LIRR, but point to a single new LIRR line since 1968, or some 1900, for that matter. During this period many LIRR stations were closed.
You make equivalency between the GCT-LIRR and the Second Avenue Subway. But the equivalency is between the GCT-LIRR and the 63rd Street tunnel connector, which has been partially open since 1989 and completely open last year, but the GCT connection is still years in the future.
I'd have to agree.
The 68 plan called for almost full electrification, connections to area airports and the Grand Central Connection and over 1000 electric cars.
We eletricifed to Huntington (already in the works by 68) and Ronkonkoma.
There are no connections to area airport, Airtrain does not count its not a one seat ride. Islip & Republic have none.
Grand Central is just starting.
The M-7's are just coming into service, according to the 68 plan we should have gotten cars everytime Metro North did.
On the overall EVERYONE got a few crumbs from the 68 plan and we can only hope someone at the MTA still has a copy.
Wondering about the similarities between R-143s and R-160s, I looked at this press release:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/communications/releases02/020731.htm
It mentions interior lighted arrows to tell passengers which side the next platform will be at (right or left). I think that is extravagant, as windows provide that information. The cars will cost almost $1.5 million each. Somehow, there has got to be choice of fewer "whistles and bells." I think the electric strip maps on the R142s and R-143s are among the least used features, as a decal would do most of the work.
This could simply be an additional feature to the existing 'next stop' sign.
-Hank
Or a feature of the DOOR enabler.
That's interesting. I wonder how these arrows will be activated. Either it will be programmed in (but then what if you are switched from an express to a local do to a problem)? Or will the crew have to activate them?
The last report dais the cars will be identical to the R-143. But I guess some things will be changed. I was hoping they would finally go with full color LED's for the interior and exterior signs, (they have higher brightness ones now) and a new digital strip map, so you could change the route with a press of the TOD, rather than changing (or making new) plastic cards. Organic LED's, LCD or plasma (the more simpler kind used on boom boxes; not the flat panel TV's) could be used. All of these technologies should be affordable by the time they actually start building the cars. Hopefully Kawasaki will have access to them (i.e Kawasaki did not have full color LED sign technology for the 143's and couldn't have provided it even if it was requested).
That's interesting. I wonder how these arrows will be activated. Either it will be programmed in (but then what if you are switched from an express to a local do to a problem)? Or will the crew have to activate them?
Oh., I'll sugesst even better - passive RF beacon at the limits of every platform, to indicate the stop. Computer then knows which side, and only allows opens on THAT side...
I could think of a few blindingly simple methods for even implementing a system where ONLY doors in front of a platform will open. Probbably the easiest would be a 'leaky coax' type wire along the platform edge (capeble of radiating no more than 2 or so feet), and an antenna under each door. Train pulls in, if the door is within the limits, it's antenna picks up the RF signal, which gives it permission to open. No signal, no door open (though a bypass button could be added for emergencies, etc). Let the cars communicate back and forth, and you could have them quickly check to see if everyone's in limits and agreeing on the correct side to open on.
The physical platform wire could be burried behind a wooden rubbing board to keep it from getting dammaged, and checking it's continuity constantly is child's play. A special signal at the platform end and or the stripped board could alert the crew to a failed station wire.
I was hoping they would finally go with full color LED's for the interior and exterior signs, (they have higher brightness ones now) and a new digital strip map, so you could change the route with a press of the TOD, rather than changing (or making new) plastic cards.
And higher resolution, maybe.
Organic LED's, LCD or plasma (the more simpler kind used on boom boxes; not the flat panel TV's) could be used. All of these technologies should be affordable by the time they actually start building the cars.
Plasma would be a disaster. good wack with a baseball bat, and there goes your display. I'm amazed the LCD ones hold up as well as they do...
I just wish they'd kill the automated station announcements. At least they're not in the 9 or so standard languaghes the TA puts everything else in....
That technology would allow the 1 train to open up cars 3-7 (instead of 1-5) at South Ferry, eliminating the problem of passengers having to walk through the C/R's transverse cab to get off the train.
It would also allow trains to be extended to 11 cars without touching the platforms.
And small overshoots would be minor inconveniences, not major safety hazards.
If they use single full color LED's, instead of individual sets of RGB, it would improve the resolution (I should add the new ones coming out now are described at "daytime visible")
If you meant the strip map, LCD and OLED (a new technology for small screen display that will eventually allow flexible screens, and can be viewed at any angle) has high resolution. Is the older type plasma display on boom boxes that fragile? (plasma is also the orange and pale blue-green digital displays on many cash registers). I wouldn't use a whole screen that could be easily damaged, but you could have it in segments, like the line with the stops, plus the route bullets below each stop. That is most of what the strip map consists of, and all I'm trying to do is make it automatically changeable.
Oh, and also, the beacons are planned for CBTC on the Canrsie line, but I've never heard of a plan to have it on all the other lines the 160 will run on.
It isn't hard, you just add a arrow to the LED display, like this:
<(L) TO CANARSIE
<(L) UNION SQ-14 ST NEXT
<(L) 6:56 PM
<(L) THIS IS
<(L) UNION SQ-14 ST
_(L) TO CANARSIE >
_(L) 3 AV NEXT >
_(L) 6:57 PM >
_(L) THIS IS >
_(L) 3 AV >
(ignore the _s, I had to use them as place holders)
I think that is extravagant, as windows provide that information
I think a visual cue in advance of entering the station could be helpful, though I'd certainly put it into a luxury category (I'd like them to get a more flexible automated route and station display/announcement system first!). Many people riding on unfamiliar routes often scramble as the train comes to a stop, realizing they were heading to the wrong side of the car.
I thought there was an ADA requirement to verbally announce which side will platform, for blind passengers. (Apparently not, since none of the new cars in NYC have this feature.) But that would seem more useful to me, since right now there's no audible indication about which side will open until ... well, you hear them open.
Other then for ADA purposes most commuters know which side the platform is at the station they get on and off at
Maybe I'm wrong but I always do
Last I checked, dwell time is long enough to start heading for one side of the car, and then cross to the other side and exit. In my humble opinion, if you can't exit a train because you expected a door to open, and--shocking--a different door opened, then you're not functional enough to leave your house in the first place. However, Not knowing if the train you are running for is a V or an E, because the digital display is the same color. Now that could suck. THe technology exists for the side destination signs to be in color, as you all were talking about. Route map, shmoute map, get the letters on the front and sides of the train (And numbers too) back in their easily identifiable route colors!
The first two R-40's were delivered on November 1,1967. They were placed on display at the 34 Street-6 Avenue IND Station on November 6 as a publicity stunt to win support for a Transportation Bond Issue. They were then returned to Saint Louis to be completed. Note that this was before the great renumbering so these two cars are now 4250-4251, slant end, non air-conditioned.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember when these cars first began appearing on the Queens Boulevard line. My first reaction was uh-oh, the R1's/9's are finally disappearing... those were the trains of my childhood growing up in Queens before moving to the burbs in '57.
So that would make them #4350-4351 as originally numbered.
I thought they were all 1968 vintage. Thanks for the info!
wayne
I rode a 7 train around 11:30 this morning from 74th Street to 45th Road. The Flushing-bound platform was closed. All Flushing-bound trains ran express from 61st to Junction (and beyond?); all Manhattan-bound trains ran local, even between 61st and QbP.
There are no posted advisories for the 7. Has this been going on for a while? Will it be going on for a while?
Yeah it's been going on for awhile alright.One time it made me miss the N20 bus I was supposed to take at around 1PM or so.I forget what it is they're doing but I did see them working around 33rd St. the last time this happened.HAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ohhhh now that I think about those stupid riders at QBP..."is this a local or express?" Tell them it's a local and they'll stand there waiting for an express that won't ever show up till 3PM!Honestly,I said this before in a previous post,rush,rush,rush,they always have to be in a rush for no damn reason at all and then they also think they save 10mins or something like that and that's not the case.
If they're gonna get off at 61St,the local has already LEFT! by the time the express get's there and mostly passes it around 74 or 82St.
And even if they don't,if they wanna go all the way to Main St,what the hell? the local would get there only 3mins later.And they never realize that either,that's how stupid they are!They can give me a dirty look or curse me out,but I'm still gonna be laughing in their faces and making fun of them because it really is laughable when I look at it all.That's what happen's when I know the fact's and they don't.POP! goes the weasel!
I was checking out the MTA website's NYCT Capital Programs. Of interest is the Myrtle-Wyckoff complex rehab. Pay close attention to the ninth sentence that starts out with: Modify existing elevated structure....
A35871-74
REHABILITATE MYRTLE-WYCKOFF STATION COMPLEX
BROOKLYN
$10M - $50M
This project is to rehabilitate the Myrtle Avenue/Wyckoff Avenue Station complex on the Canarsie and Myrtle Avenue Line in Brooklyn. The project scope of work includes the following tasks.
Demolish existing diner, luncheonette and other metal enclosures on the site
Construct new station entrance building
Construct three new elevators: a three-stop elevator in the new station entrance building, a two-stop elevator from the Myrtle Avenue mezzanine to the platform, and a two-stop elevator from the elevated mezzanine to the Wyckoff Avenue Station
Relocate duct bank, modify grillage, provide new columns and beams to reframe subway and mezzanine structure
Modify existing elevated structure and track girders; provide new column and bent; remove track girders and existing stairs; provide new stairs and new ramp to elevator; repair structural deficiencies throughout station
Provide new transfer passageway from the station entrance building to the Wyckoff Avenue Station
Reorganize and rehabilitate station entrances, control areas, stairs, rooms, and operating facilities
Upgrade electrical distribution, lighting and communication systems
Provide architectural treatments to the customer areas in the station
Demolish, reconfigure, reconstruct existing employee facilities to provide new consolidated employee facility
Provide new porcelain ceramic floor tile in Myrtle Avenue Station mezzanine and platform
Install signage and other passenger amenities
Duration of Contract 45 Months Monthly list
Modify existing elevated structure and track girders; provide new column and bent; remove track girders and existing stairs; provide new stairs and new ramp to elevator; repair structural deficiencies throughout station
Very interesting! Now what exctly does that mean - "provide new column and bent: remove track girders"?
Actually, does that mean they will finally "fill in" the express trackway and make it a big island platform?
I believe the 'express' track might be filled in but I think it should remain in case of problems, a short turn is possible from there rather than further away.
Um, there's no track there -- it's a gaping hole running between the two platforms. Part of it is already filled in.
Dang. That's a site to see. I REALLY need to go for a ride on the (M) sometime. I've never been north of Myrtle Av on the JMZ.
--Brian
Actually that wood section in the photo is the original crossovers over the "express" trackway. There were two of them, before they put the concrete one in there. No, I never saw it that way, it's been the way it is for many decades, but up until a few years ago, there were two abandoned exits on the station; one on each extreme end of the station. The abandoned exits were the original exits to the station, and had concrete walls around them, just like the other exits on the M line (like Seneca, Forest, Fresh Pond). They were all removed about 8 years ago. You can still see evidence at the extreme ends on either end. Those rotting wood crossovers are right in front of where the two abandoned exits were on each end.
Much later I estimate is when they put in the current exit stairways, and then added the concrete crossover, probably when the conbnection to the L train was made. If you look closely at David's last photo, on the ground near the end of the M train, you can see where the old south end exit and mezzanine was (there is no doubt it was there; I was a daily user of the station for many years, and saw it myself when it was still there till a few years ago).
In David's first photo, you can see the spot where the original north end exit was, on the ground, just behind the black sandbox. In addition, notice how the railing is different. The railing at the edge is the original railing, from when the wood was the only crossover (the others must have been removed when they added the concrete crossover.
Well, when I was there two three weeks ago, this entire scene is already changed. You can no longer walk between the two "platforms" as there is now a construction baricade blocking the concrete crossover. Get your photos now, as it is changing rapidly. The amazing thing is that kids many time cross over those woodened platforms, especially when they do trackwork on the line, single track the M as a Shuttle, with
The plywood is not for construction but to block accesss to a section which failed! They kept it quiet but a section fell recently injuting customer(s).
Amazing. Actually it has always baffled me that no one has fallen to their death off of the Wyckoff station. Since there is no track on the "express" trackway, it is open to Myrtle Avenue below. And notice from David's photos that the railing is a horizontal bar type railing, that little kids can just crawl under, and there is nothing stopping them from falling to the street below. Actually, many people just sit on the railing while waiting for a train. If they fall backwards they can fall through the elevated structure. It wouldn't be so bad if there was a track there, because they would only fall a few feet, but since there is no track, the fall could be deadly.
Not to mention that the platforms at Wykoff have to be the narrowest island platforms in the system. Must've been a bit scary when the express track was actually in place and used.
They're narrow but they're certainly not the narrowest in the system. They're clearly wider than Essex (J/M/Z), Wall (2/3), Fulton (2/3), and 72nd (1/2/3/9).
Actually, they are very similar to width of Myrtle-Broadway on the JMZ, in which all three tracks are still in use. Myrtle-Broadway's two platforms are also extremely narrow, very similar to Wyckoff Avenue.
Actually, many people just sit on the railing while waiting for a train. If they fall backwards they can fall through the elevated structure.
Actually, I was just looking closer at the last photo, and case in point.....there is some idiot kid sitting on the railing in the distance.
Although, I never would sit on the railing, I remember back in the 80's, when they were doing track work on the M and they were running shuttle service on one track, with the two sections meeting at Wyckoff, I was dumb enough to run across the wood section shown in the second photo at the extreme south end - and it didn't look to be in much better back then either. At 14 or 15 we all seem to think we are invincible.
Actually that wood section in the photo is the original crossovers over the "express" trackway. There were two of them, before they put the concrete one in there. No, I never saw it that way, it's been the way it is for many decades, but up until a few years ago, there were two abandoned exits on the station; one on each extreme end of the station. The abandoned exits were the original exits to the station, and had concrete walls around them, just like the other exits on the M line (like Seneca, Forest, Fresh Pond). They were all removed about 8 years ago. You can still see evidence at the extreme ends on either end. Those rotting wood crossovers are right in front of where the two abandoned exits were on each end.
Much later I estimate is when they put in the current exit stairways, and then added the concrete crossover, probably when the conbnection to the L train was made. If you look closely at David's last photo, on the ground near the end of the M train, you can see where the old south end exit and mezzanine was (there is no doubt it was there; I was a daily user of the station for many years, and saw it myself when it was still there till a few years ago).
In David's first photo, you can see the spot where the original north end exit was, on the ground, just behind the black sandbox. In addition, notice how the railing is different. The railing at the edge is the original railing, from when the wood was the only crossover (the others must have been removed when they added the concrete crossover.
Well, when I was there two three weeks ago, this entire scene is already changed. You can no longer walk between the two "platforms" as there is now a construction baricade blocking the concrete crossover. Get your photos now, as it is changing rapidly. The amazing thing is that kids many time cross over those woodened platforms, especially when they do trackwork on the line, single track the M as a Shuttle, with the two sections meeting at Wyckoff - if they only knew how old that wood was, they probably wouldn't do it!
Perfect place for an elevator.
-Hank
The down elevator is already in place. For those who complain about how slow the TA's elevators and escalators are, you may prefer this one.
It's in already? Where is it going to be?
I'm glad that station is finally getting elevators. As Hank mentioned, it's a needed elevator. I used to run up those stairs form the L every day for 3 years, and it was exhausting, and that's when I was younger. For older people it is a hike!
L platform to mezzanine.
L mezzanine to ground level
Ground level to M mezzanine
M mezzanine to M Platform
I get tired thinking about it!
Read my post again.
It's a down escalator only. And it's very, very fast.
It only goes to street level, not to the Canarsie Line. At least not until it's been used several times.
Read my post again.
Ooops, I misread your post (I was rushing through to try to catch up). I see you wrote "escalator", not elevator. I guess when I read your post I was thinking elevator. When did the escalator open? I was there about three weeks ago, but did not notice it, although I was in a hurry, and kind of just quickly transferred from the L to the M via the miles of stairs. You would think that they would first open the "up" escalator. I have to check that out one day. You say it's very fast.
Oops. The typo was in the second post. It's an elevator. A down elevator. And RIPTA42HopeTunnel is correct: it only goes to the street.
I don't know if many people have used it yet. Some may have used it by mistake.
Very fast.
Okay. Now I get it.
I'll have to get over there to check it out.
Check it out? You've already seen it.
I don't think it's ADA-compliant, BTW -- the opening to enter the elevator isn't wide enough (though it's pretty close).
There hasn't been usable track on the express trackway since the gate cars ran to Bridge St!
BTW, there's a huge "tower" right where the el turns from Myrtle to Palmetto St. (seen in the pic below circa 1970). Since there is no junction north of Wykoff and there hasn't been in half a century, why is this structure still there? Or is it serving some purpose I don't realize:
>>There hasn't been usable track on the express trackway since the gate cars ran to Bridge St!<<
Since the gate cars ran to Park Row.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've seen pictures with the express track in place as late as 1955. It was stripped of rails and useless, but I can't imagine the middle trackway hasn't seen a train since 1944???
>>I've seen pictures with the express track in place as late as 1955. It was stripped of rails and useless<<
How about the middle track of the Third Ave "el" (Bronx). Last used in 1955 when the Manhattan portion was closed. What was left of the middle track lay dormant for 18 years before the Bronx portion closed for good.
>> I can't imagine the middle trackway hasn't seen a train since 1944???<<
Wyckoff middle was last used in 1942 for some Park Row "el" trains. So that tower at Wyckoff probably was last used in '42.
Bill "Newkirk"
I knew the 3rd Ave express track was left dormant for that length of time, but I assumed that was because that part of the el was doomed to eventual demolition even in 1955.
Some people use it. There are always lights on, and people going to it. Either Stations dept. or Signal or something like that.
The tower is used. Alex L may be able to elaborate.
>>Very interesting! Now what exctly does that mean - "provide new column and bent: remove track girders"?<<
I'm guessing removing the long gone center track girders. Unless someone here can enlighten us.
They are currently replacing escalators there, but from the sounds of it, they may do something similar to Franklin Ave/Fulton St. (A)(C)(S).
Bill "Newkirk"
It's about time they give it a rehab. Wyckoff Av is just an eyesore, basically the M line is run down and I believe the whole line should be rebuilt. Shut it down for a year or 2 by working around the clock and have shuttle buses replace it until subway service resumes.
If the MTA had worked more often on and/or around the clock whenever possible, they could have saved millions of dollars and would have prevented budget overruns on projects all over the city over the years.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
The Chrystie Street Line opened for service in the early morning hours of Sunday, November 26,1967 as most students of this board know.
It marked the end of the three separate divsions on the NYCTA with the virtual merger of the BMT and IND. The Chrystie Street Line itself connected the express tracks of the IND Sixth Avenue Line south of Broadway-Lafayette Street Station with the BMT tracks on the north side of the Manhattan Bridge at a point just west of the portal. It included a two track, two side platform station called Grand Street which was located on Chrystie Street.
The other Chrystie Street Connection opened on July 1,1968 and connected the local tracks of the IND Sixth Avenue Line south of Broadway-Lafayette Street Station with the local tracks of the BMT Centre Street Line west of Essex Street Station.
The initial service pattern through the Chrystie Street Line was as follows. D trains would run between 205 Street Terminal on the IND Grand Concourse Line in The Bronx and Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue Terminal on the BMT Brighton Line in Brooklyn at all times. The D would have four different express operations;
1) Bedford Park Boulevard-145 Street (LL) M-F AM Rush Southbound and PM Rush Northbound.
2) 145 Street (LL) and 59 Street-Columbus Circle at All Times
3) 47-50 Streets and Broadway-Lafayette Street M-F Rush Hours in both directions
4) Prospect Park-Brighton Beach M-F 6AM-7 PM (+/-)
Note that the D ran to Coney Island at all times so that when it was running express it had to cross over to the local tracks north of Brighton Beach. The Brighton Locals at the time (QB,QJ) terminated at Brighton Beach as did the short-lived NX. This was the cause of many delays and was rectified in August when D trains were cut back to Brighton Beach during the hours of express operation and the QB and QJ were extended to Coney Island. The NX having been discontinued by this time.
The second service to operate through the new connection was the B which began operating on Monday, November 28, 1967. The B ran between 168 Street-Broadway Station on the IND Eighth Avenue Line in Manhattan and the Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue Terminal on the BMT West End Line in Brooklyn M-F during rush hours, about half of these trains were shortlined at the Bay Parkway Station. These trains ran local on Central Park West but ran express on the Sixth Avenue Line in Manhattan and the Fourth Avenue Line in Broklyn and most bypassed Dekalb Avenue Station. Weekday midday and early evening (7-8PM) B trains ran between the West 4 Street Station (LL) on the IND Sixth Avenue Line in Manhattan and Coney Island. These trains ran express on the Fourth Avenue Line in Brooklyn except for a few early morning trains. They also stopped at Dekalb Avenue Station again except for a few on the shoulders of the rush hour. This service also ran on Saturdays from 6AM-8PM.
Some items of note:
The D now arrived and departed fro the Coney Island Terminal on Platform B (Brighton Line) instead of Platform C (Culver Line).
There was now midday express service on the Brighton Line whereas prior to Chrystie Street the Brighton Line only had rush hour express service.
The Sixth Avenue Line express tracks were only used during the rush hours. Full time express service on these tracks would not begin until July, 1968.
West End Service during nights M_Sat and all day Sunday continued to be provided by the TT West End Shuttle operating between 36 Street and Coney Island. This also would last until July when the B became a full time operation.
Car Types:
D used 10 midday, rush and evenings, 8 late nights and Sundays 10 Saturday and 4 during the owl period.
A maximum of 40-10 car trains were needed for the AM Rush while 41-10 car trains were needed for the PM Rush.
Most trains consisted of R-32's but there were also a few R- 1/9's.
B/TT used 8 cars on weekdays, 6 on Saturdays and 4 on Sundays and during the owl period.
38-8 car trains were needed for the AM Rush while 37-8 car trains were needed for the PM Rush.
R-1/9's and R-32's were used. (Of course not in the same train)
The new map colors for the B was black, for the D orange and for the TT Dark Blue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Looks like the old LIRR Wading River extension will become a 12 mile bike path / nature trail. Check it out !
http://www.geocities.com/denisbyrne/lirr.html
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, that's a GREAT way to preserve those old LIRR ROWs for future generations...
Recently, there have been numerous different threads on NYCT EXPANSION (largely due to posts by DOWNTOWN EXPRESS and other topics, like LIRR take-over of Cranberry St tube). So, I figured: why not tie them all together? (keep in mind, this is blank check planning)
First: Infrastructure
2nd av subway- from 125th st to a new connector around/north of Chambers St. to Nassau st. line. Tracks connect to Grand St, and trains can be operated over Manhattan Br A/B tracks. Tracks continue to connection with Nassau St. subway.
LIRR Bay Ridge line- As previoiusly suggested, NYCT assumes role of operating these tracks. Outermost tracks at Church LL extended underground to this ROW. ROW is widened to accomodate 3 tracks, and center track remains in service for freight usage. Extended eastward only (not into queens or northward to Fulton Av.). Could Branch off southward at Utica or (and) Flatbush avs.
LIRR Rockaway abandoned ROW- NYCT begins service on the unused part of the ROW. Connects to Queens Blvd at 63rd drive.
LIRR Atlantic Av. Subway- NYCT assumes operation of this line, accoding to Paul Matus' plan. Build a connection at Vanderbuilt or Cralton avs to Fulton Av. subway. Another connection to Brooklyn BMT at Atlantic/Fulton intersection.
Archer/Hillside extensions- Connect both of these lines to the new Atlantic av subway at Jamaica. Extend both lines along previously planned routes to City borders (Hillside as 4 track).
8th av/42nd st lower level- s. bound express track is shifted to present ramp between 34th and 42nd. (covered over). New ramp is built between express tracks. Connects to 42nd st lower level. Second track added to east side of platform.
Rockaway Blvd.-switches added to the west of the station. Manhattan bound trains can shift onto center track, and then reverse onto Queens bound track.
Second: Service planning
(A)-207th st to Far Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd., rush hours. All other times to Far Rockaway only. Via express, except nights.
(B)-168th st to Coney Isand. CPW local, 6th/4th av express. via West End. No service weekends/nights.
(C)-Bedford Pk. Blvd. to Euclid av. rush hours. 145th st to Euclid all other times except nights. Nights no service.
(D)-205th st to Brighton Beach, Concourse/CPW/6th av/Brighton express. Weekends/nights via Brighton Local to Coney Island
(E)-Chambers/WTC to Rockaway Pk. 8th av local, QB express. Via rockaway row to rockaway pk. Replaces S.
(F)From New Hillside terminal to Coney Island. Hillside local. Via 63rd. QB express. 6th/Culver local. Nights local
(G)-Ct. sq to church av. local. All times.
(J)-Jamaica Center to Broad St.
(K)-LIRR Bay Ridge Branch line to 125th st. LIRR Bay Ridge line/Culver exp/6th av local/63rd st/2nd av. Nights only Bay Ridge branch to Church av.
(L)-8th avenue to Rockaway Pkwy.
(M)-Metropolitan to Chambers all times.
(N)-Ditmars Av. Astoria to Coney Island. Via manhattan bridge/Broadway express. Nights local via montague tunnel.
(Q)- Coney Island to 57/7av. Brighton Local/Manhattan bridge/Broadway exp. No service weekends/nights.
(R)-95th st to 71st Continental. Via Broadway/QB local. Nights no service.
(T)-Coney Island (Bay Pkwy?) to Archer av subway extensions. 4th av local/montague tunnel/Nassau st/2nd av/63rd st/QB express. Nights via local.
(V)- Hillside extensions to 125th/2nd av. Jamaica/Atlantic Av. super express/Flatbush av connection/Manhattan Br. A/B tracks/2nd av. Via hillside express. Nights 125th st to Chambers st/Nassau st subway.
(Y)-Archer av extensions to 42nd st 8th av. Jamaica/Atl Av super exp./Vanderbuilt av connector/Cranberry st tube/8th av express. Nights via local to Chambers/8th av.
No IRT expansion.
Whew. That took a while. So, with this plan that I 'stole' from numerous subtalkers, the TA would serve new communities in Queens and Bklyn (Rockaway and Bay Ridge ROW's) and could expand the amount of trains that could be sent to outer queens (allowing expansion further east/north) just by taking over a few unused/soon-to-be obsolete LIRR ROW's. The only line expansion here is:
2nd av (were' supposed to get it anyway...)
Extansions in queens
LIRR Bay Ridge Branch sent south along Utica or (and) Flatbush avs.
Getting the most out of your buck. Something that should be learned.
Anyone who feels that they can add to/show me what's wrong with this plan should feel free to do so.
Yes and why not extend the Bx55 to Manhattan (125 or 86) to connect to the Second Avenue line(free transfer given at station) so the people in the Bronx don't have to pack on the already crowded lines just to get to the Second Avenue line.
We haven't addressed the need for more capacity to relieve the Queens Blvd. line - e.g., the Super-Express plan of the 1960s or the Montauk-Archer plan of the 1980s, or perhaps running the Port Washington line more like rapid transit. At a minimum, returning the F to 53rd Street and running the V through 63rd Street (the original concept for the Queens Blvd. connection, I believe) should be on the discussion table.
NOTE:This is for the current infrastructure and I'll do the BMT in another post
IND:
A--> Run all the 's on the middletrack on the Liberty El, reconfigure tracks after Grant Av. These A's would skip all stops btw Euclid & Howard Beach utilizing the middle tracks in the peak direction then switching to the local track[if a switch is there already]. I'll do line improvements first.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(A):207 St->8 Av/CPW Exp->Fulton Exp->all stops to Lefferts or Rockaways
:207 St->same as above but express to Howard Beach then all stops to B116 St
B--> Back to pre 7/22/01
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(B):Bedford Pk Blvd[rush]Concourse local->145 St[all time except nights]->6 Av Exp/CPW local->Manny B->4 Av Exp via West end->Coney Island[when it returns to Brooklyn]
C--> Many of you suggested that the C run to Lefferts but I would bring it back to the Rockaways and this will elminate the shuttle all times except late nights
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(C):168 St->8 Av/CPW Local->Fulton local->Rockaway Park
D--> Back to pre 7/22/01
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(D):205 St->Concourse exp[peak]->6 Av Exp/CPW Exp->Manny B->Brighton local
E--> Fine
Same as today
F/V--> F's Would return as the Culver express running weekdays[possibly weekends] while G's and V's run local to Church & Kings Hwy, respectively and return of the Hillside express. V's will be expanded to a weekend train if necessary
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(F):179 St->Hillside/QB Exp->6 Av local->Culver Exp->CI[when it reopens]
(V):179 St->Hillside/QB local->6 Av local->Culver local->Kings Hwy[if it runs on weekends 2 Av]
G--> Would run to Church Av all times to create 10 min intervals late nights, would bring a 4 Av connection as well. Would make a plan to allow it to go to 71 Av 24/7 and would be restored to at least 6 cars
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(G):71 Av->QB local->Crosstown local->Culver local->Church Av
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back
The plan was adding new trackage to increase capacity. Using the old infrastructure is something different.
C--> Many of you suggested that the C run to Lefferts but I would bring it back to the Rockaways and this will elminate the shuttle all times except late nights
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(C):168 St->8 Av/CPW Local->Fulton local->Rockaway Park
With the "E" running to Rockaway Park, there's no reason to run the "C" there. Keep in mind, there's been a lot of new trackage added here. Also, the point of exp service to the outer branches is to save time for those riders.
D--> Back to pre 7/22/01
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(D):205 St->Concourse exp[peak]->6 Av Exp/CPW Exp->Manny B->Brighton local
See, everyone seems to think that the "D" should be the local. But, the "D" is much more important than the "Q" is. It will have direct service to points north of 59th, unlike the Q. It has cross-platform connections to both expresses and locals on Queens Blvd. It also has an easy connection to 8th avenue. And, it connects to Lex (the Q does to, both at Atlantic.)
Continuing on:
J/Z--> Move J's to the local track all times in Brooklyn and let Z's be express in the peak direction from Marcy Av to B'way Junction then start skip-stop service at B'way rather than Myrtle Av. Expand the hours of the Z. If necessary, let all Z's skip Bowery like it used to via but middle track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
J->Broad St[Chambers St weekends,late nights]->Nassau local->Broadway local->skip stop service[rush]->Jamaica Center
Z->Broad St->Nassau express->Broadway express->skip stop service->Jamaica Center
L-->Fine
Same as today
M-->Fine
Same as today
N-->For 2004, should return to the Manny B. Would be 4 Av express, bridge, Broadway express [will stop at 49 St], Astoria express[reverse peak or every other N in the regular peak express pattern] and W's would continue to run with the N as the local. Nights all local stops between Coney Island[when it reopens] and Astoria since Broadway line is hevily used daily, 4 lines will run: 2 local, 2 express lines will run on it 7 days.
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N->Astoria->Astoria express[reverse peak]->Broadway express->Manny B->4 Av express->Sea Beach(express?)->Coney Island[when it reopens]
Q->Same as post 7/22/01 but I would experiment with weekend Brighton express service. Would run from 7AM-7PM weekends, would be good especially in the summer. The last few Q's[all trains from Manhattan after 8:30-8:45pm] that don't return to Manhattan on weekdays should run to Coney Island[when it reopens]. I would also try out a service with all OR alternate Q's via 63 St and QB to 179 St via express weekdays or if demand is high weekends, other times 57 St, Manhattan. I still believe it could work if scheduling is done correctly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q->179 St->Hillside/QB express->Broadway express->Manny B->Brighton express->Brighton Beach
R-->Fine
Same as today
S-->Franklin, 42 St, Grand St Fine
Same as today
W--> A real WILD CARD. Previously, I suggested that it run with the N from 86 St or Coney Island weekdays[terminates at Whitehall other times] to Astoria via local, but I thought, like others, that it should terminate at Whitehall St. The Sea Beach could sure use a extra line as 2 services or possibly resurrrect the Sea Beach express and would side by side with the N but via local. Would run all times except nights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
W->Coney Island?->Sea Beach?->Montague tunnel?->Whitehall St-> Broadway local->Astoria local->Astoria
I'll leave the IRT alone for now.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
J/Z--> Move J's to the local track all times in Brooklyn and let Z's be express in the peak direction from Marcy Av to B'way Junction then start skip-stop service at B'way rather than Myrtle Av. Expand the hours of the Z. If necessary, let all Z's skip Bowery like it used to via but middle track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
J->Broad St[Chambers St weekends,late nights]->Nassau local->Broadway local->skip stop service[rush]->Jamaica Center
Z->Broad St->Nassau express->Broadway express->skip stop service->Jamaica Center
Under this plan, passengers at Z stops are favored over passengers at J stops. If you're going to do this, then the express train has to stop at all stops east of B'way East New York. Whether that means terminating the local at B'way ENY or running both trains full locals to Jamaica Center remains to be seen.
What happens when West[south]bound J/M/Z trains all approach Myrtle avenue at the same time?
"Under this plan, passengers at Z stops are favored over passengers at J stops. If you're going to do this, then the express train has to stop at all stops east of B'way East New York. Whether that means terminating the local at B'way ENY or running both trains full locals to Jamaica Center remains to be seen.
What happens when West[south]bound J/M/Z trains all approach Myrtle avenue at the same time?"
It's just two bad they won't consider building a single middle track down Jamaica Avenue and provide express service in that pattern. Of course, this would not include building a Woodhaven Blvd Express Station, because, it will be too costly and cost too much delays.
Just thinking of it.. It can be advertised as the new train to the AIRPORT (of course with the New AIRTRAIN IN PLACE).. since it won't make many stop throughout it whole route.
N Broadway Line
J/Z--> Move J's to the local track all times in Brooklyn and let Z's be express in the peak direction from Marcy Av to B'way Junction then start skip-stop service at B'way rather than Myrtle Av. Expand the hours of the Z. If necessary, let all Z's skip Bowery like it used to via but middle track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
J->Broad St[Chambers St weekends,late nights]->Nassau local->Broadway local->skip stop service[rush]->Jamaica Center
Z->Broad St->Nassau express->Broadway express->skip stop service->Jamaica Center
Under this plan, passengers at Z stops are favored over passengers at J stops. If you're going to do this, then the express train has to stop at all stops east of B'way East New York. Whether that means terminating the local at B'way ENY or running both trains full locals to Jamaica Center remains to be seen.
What happens when West[south]bound J/M/Z trains all approach Myrtle avenue at the same time?
Q->Same as post 7/22/01 but I would experiment with weekend Brighton express service. Would run from 7AM-7PM weekends, would be good especially in the summer. The last few Q's[all trains from Manhattan after 8:30-8:45pm] that don't return to Manhattan on weekdays should run to Coney Island[when it reopens]. I would also try out a service with all OR alternate Q's via 63 St and QB to 179 St via express weekdays or if demand is high weekends, other times 57 St, Manhattan. I still believe it could work if scheduling is done correctly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q->179 St->Hillside/QB express->Broadway express->Manny B->Brighton express->Brighton Beach
Again, why does the Q have to be express? And another question: Why would broadway service be so much more heavily used than 6th av? Seems like that's the exact opposite of how it was last time.
W--> A real WILD CARD. Previously, I suggested that it run with the N from 86 St or Coney Island weekdays[terminates at Whitehall other times] to Astoria via local, but I thought, like others, that it should terminate at Whitehall St. The Sea Beach could sure use a extra line as 2 services or possibly resurrrect the Sea Beach express and would side by side with the N but via local. Would run all times except nights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
W->Coney Island?->Sea Beach?->Montague tunnel?->Whitehall St-> Broadway local->Astoria local->Astoria
Any "W" service would be purely to add extra service to the broadway local, Hence terminating at Whitehall (with most of the runs then heading to the lay-up at Canal/City Hall LL). Sea Beach surely doesn't need 2 services, and it definitely doesn't need any express service.
That's why I put question marks for the W in Brooklyn after 2004 and I DID say that it would be a wild card. B'way could sure use the service, especially on weekends. I rode the Q yesterday from Times Square in Brooklyn and it was standing room only until Atlantic Av but still had a good crowd past Atlantic. Both platforms at TS were packed like rush hour and I say the B'way line doesn't have enough service currently on weekends. Lets see if the MTA gets smart and keeps the W from Whitehall to Astoria in 2004.
>>"Again, why does the Q have to be express? And another question: Why would broadway service be so much more heavily used than 6th av? Seems like that's the exact opposite of how it was last time."<<
Remember, since the B & D got shortened, more people transfer at 34 St to catch the Q and less people use Grand St[since there's no B/D] now than they used to & they would rather use Canal St [well, some people reluctantly decided to do this] or they take the M[weekdays] and what is the use of that silly shuttle bus btw Dekalb & Canal St. The Broadway line has 'always' been a busy line it just didn't have enough service[well it was lousy when it was the N & R running only].
Remember, since the B & D got shortened, more people transfer at 34 St to catch the Q and less people use Grand St[since there's no B/D] now than they used to & they would rather use Canal St [well, some people reluctantly decided to do this] or they take the M[weekdays] and what is the use of that silly shuttle bus btw Dekalb & Canal St. The Broadway line has 'always' been a busy line it just didn't have enough service[well it was lousy when it was the N & R running only].
I'm talking about 1985. B/D trains made up the bulk of Bridge service. N trains also ran, but the "Q" was little more than a peak direction rush hour express that had some of it's runs cancelled according to some subtalkers.
Oh, you should have said that before lol, yeah the Q was only a rush hour service during that time but there was more N service during that time than now and is no longer glorious as before. Yes, the flexing was still a constant problem. If some runs got cancelled, it was b/c of the Brighton reconstruction of 1987-1988 that forced D's & Q's to run skip stop service and moved M trains 'temporarily' to the West End since the CI bound track was covered by temporary platforms [I don't know how many stations had this though] and I think both trains went express at some point.
If some runs got cancelled, it was b/c of the Brighton reconstruction of 1987-1988 that forced D's & Q's to run skip stop service and moved M trains 'temporarily' to the West End since the CI bound track was covered by temporary platforms [I don't know how many stations had this though] and I think both trains went express at some point.
The M was moved when the Q became a real line. Before that, Q trains were a sorry peice of trash that was cancelled because it was a one way line with NOWHERE to lay-up the trains (this is before there was ample space north of 57th/7th.)
I do not know how they could run the Q in the peak direction[wish I was a little older so I could see how it was to ride pre-GOH R42's on the D & Q]. It was worse when it was the QB 5 trips in the rush each direction [that's how selected D's were express in Brooklyn]. I thought they became R trains or another train afterwards. It was hot when the Q went via B'way express (but via tunnel :-\) used the 63 St connector back in 1995 during the 2nd Manhattan Bridge rehab.
"Again, why does the Q have to be express? And another question: Why would broadway service be so much more heavily used than 6th av? Seems like that's the exact opposite of how it was last time."
When was this? I'm assuming you mean right before the 6th Avenue Bridge was eliminated. If you did not notice, the N and R was the only line serving Broadway.. and was not serving the Bridge. Although, as an "N" Broadway rider.. the stations serving this line has always been pretty well used.
Anyway, I would like to know what the passenger flow was like when both services (Broadway and 6th Avenue) was like when both routes were open to the bridge.
N Broadway Line
When was this? I'm assuming you mean right before the 6th Avenue Bridge was eliminated.
I'm talking 1985.
Anyway, I would like to know what the passenger flow was like when both services (Broadway and 6th Avenue) was like when both routes were open to the bridge.
(B)(D)-Northside of the bridge, via 6th av express. Rush hours B train to 168th and 57th/6th. 57th/6th av trains run local s. bound in PM rush. 168 trains run express
(N)< Q >-Southside. N trains run peak direction LOCAL in manhattan, (nbound local in AM, Sbound local in PM). N extras run to Whitehall (N ran to 71st at this time). Q train runs peak direction only to 57/7th. According to one subtalker who was a C/R at the time comments that most Q runs either 1. ran to Astoria or 2. just ran back to brooklyn anyway. The M was the main Brighton Local anyways.
Jtrain, "N Broadway Line" would like to know how the passenger flow was at that time when both sides were open[i.e crowds on the 6 Av line & crowds on the B'way line]. Thanks for the extra info anyway.
Presumably, 6th av would be higher, expecially considering that 6th av had more service to it (Brighton exp, West End exp, QB exp all fed into this line. On the other hand, the Q wasn't really a substantial line, so you could say that it was only the N running express on that line, and it ran local sbound AM, Nbound PM (so as not to mix up the locals coming from whitehall with the expresses.
Q service into midtown utilizing south side broadway express i smuch quicker then Q via 6th Ave.
Plus I like the fact that thier is a transfer at union square for the 4/5/6 and at canal for the j/m/z both a big improvement over the 6th ave line
"N-->For 2004, should return to the Manny B. Would be 4 Av express, bridge, Broadway express [will stop at 49 St], Astoria express[reverse peak or every other N in the regular peak express pattern] and W's would continue to run with the N as the local. Nights all local stops between Coney Island[when it reopens] and Astoria since Broadway line is hevily used daily, 4 lines will run: 2 local, 2 express lines will run on it 7 days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
N->Astoria->Astoria express[reverse peak]->Broadway express->Manny B->4 Av express->Sea Beach(express?)->Coney Island[when it reopens]"
I agree with everything except the N stoping at 49th Street and the Astoria Express, which presented problems early.. Therefore, things should just stay the same as now. Broadway express everyday except Sundays and Nights.. And 4th Avenue Express only Rush hours.. The "B" providing express other times.
For the "Q" line... Since I'm a BROADWAY MAN.. I would rather see it express in Brooklyn of course.. But wouldn't the D make more sense as an express train in Brooklyn, because of the fact it goes to the Bronx? 179th Street is out of the Queens.. and the only future terminal (if ever built) will be 125th Street.
"W--> A real WILD CARD. Previously, I suggested that it run with the N from 86 St or Coney Island weekdays[terminates at Whitehall other times] to Astoria via local, but I thought, like others, that it should terminate at Whitehall St. The Sea Beach could sure use a extra line as 2 services or possibly resurrrect the Sea Beach express and would side by side with the N but via local. Would run all times except nights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
W->Coney Island?->Sea Beach?->Montague tunnel?->Whitehall St-> Broadway local->Astoria local->Astoria"
The "W" should be the rush hour service from Astoria to Whitehall Street operating local. The Montague tunnel will be better serve by the "M" since it will be the only Nassau Street line that will be able to access south Brooklyn.
N Broadway Line
>>"I agree with everything except the N stoping at 49th Street and the Astoria Express, which presented problems early.. Therefore, things should just stay the same as now. Broadway express everyday except Sundays and Nights.. And 4th Avenue Express only Rush hours.. The "B" providing express other times."<<
49 St is a heavy usage station[in general the B'way is a heavy line daily] plus I don't think there is a crossover north of 57 St where N's could skip 49, stop at the express track on 57 St then switch to the local track to go via 60 St. I would agree with your plan for the N to run local Sundays IF the Q remains a weekday only train other than that it will be express.
>>"For the "Q" line... Since I'm a BROADWAY MAN.. I would rather see it express in Brooklyn of course.. But wouldn't the D make more sense as an express train in Brooklyn, because of the fact it goes to the Bronx? 179th Street is out of the Queens.. and the only future terminal (if ever built) will be 125th Street."<<
The D had some trains run express on a regular schedule in Brooklyn to Brighton Beach as extra service until 1988, when it became a full time local. If the D were the express, you may as well bring the M back to the Brighton line. Seriously, D's as the express would be jam packed in Brooklyn while Q's would be empty, people would NOT catch on so quickly. In other words it will be just like the V when it started out.
How about a north terminal switch between the 2 and 5 trains?
Or you could just bring back the 5 to 241, I don't understand why they cut the 5 to 238 St. I know it had to do with the cuts of 1995 but that should not have been selected.
Easier access to/from 239St yard. It still blocks 2 train traffic into 241St during the PM rush. I think it should terminate at GH road, run up M track to 239St yard.
Yeah and what about the people who have to get off NORTH of Gun Hill Road? I'm surprised you haven't suggested that they get rid of the <5> all together and just run more (4) service to Woodlawn.
What about the 2 train? Just wait for the 2. You have to do it all other times. By putting the <5> on MN track north of Gun Hill Rd, #2 trains can get in/out of the terminal with ease. And what this have to do with the 4 line anyway??
yeah, but people want DIRECT Lexington Av service that's why the <5> doesn't run express after E 180th anymore. If it were up to me, I would extend <5> service by taking out some of those Dyre trains that run so close together. Sometimes the (2) is delayed that is why the <5> still goes to E 241st sometimes(PM).
I hear you man. Hopefully tomorrow will be lite day. Most people will be home. Wait a minute! Holiday shopping season starts tomorrow. Uh-oh!!
Who is minding the West End for overnight and weekend usage? This line sees much more traffic than the Sea BEach, according to the TA's own figures. Run the "T" off times from Stillwell.
Just realized that there is only one train through 53rd and one QB local! So, I'd change the following:
(F)-Hillside extensions, Hillside local, QB exp/63rd/6th av/Culver exp/LIRR Bay Ridge line. Nights via local
(K)-71st st/QB local/53rd st/6th av/Culver local/Coney Island
(Q)125th/2nd av/63rd st/Broadway exp/Manh. bridge/Brighton Local/Coney Island. Except nights.
Hong Kong rates right up there with NYC, San Francisco, and Boston for interesting and varied transit: subway, double-decker buses, minibuses (for the hilly routes), double decker trolleys, Peak Tram, the escalator system (300+ vertical feet of escalators and travelators in about 25 sections that run from the "Central" business area to "Mid-Level" section).
Here's a tourist with one of the double-decker trolleys. They run on one route along a main highway in both separate mid-street reservation and in-street/mixed traffic. Enter the rear; pay as you leave the front. Fare is HKD2.00 = about 25 cents. They're wooden, single-trucked with overhead DC power. I saw both K-control/straight air and automatic acceleration/self lapping air.
A full photoessay when I return. By the way, it's 80 degrees, sunny, and dry. And that's Transit and Weather Together
Gee, that guy doesn't even LOOK like a tourist or railfan ... great disguise !
BTW, remember that will be two reports, one for us & one for you boss, boy am I jealous !
The boss doesn't get to hear about Hong Kong.... this was a vacation stop-over. He gets to hear about Zurich, Paris, London, and Bangkok, where I did "real" work. Of course, my employer will save money, as I took trains, subways, and buses in all cities -- where the average businessperson would take taxis.
Tomorrow (Saturday) is the long trek home, Hong Kong to San Francisco to Boston.
See you on the radio, Thanksgiving morning!
Hey, that double-decker ruined that picture of you :)
--Mark
I liked Hong Kong when I was there, but I only took the subway once (remembering it to be clean and modern). Since I was mostly in Central, with quick trips across the bay, to TsimShaShui (sp?), I took the Star Ferry, which has great views.
The most fascinating transport has to be the Peak Tram, where for most of the run, it’s single track, with passing track in the middle. Since there are no moving frogs on the switches, it took me a while to figure out how it works: the wheels are not standard rail wheels: each pair of axles has one wheel with two flanges and one wheel with no flanges, with the flanges being on the outside. When they get to the passing point, the wheel flanges pull the car to the appropriate side without any moving parts on the track!
John
And I'll have some great pix of the Peak Tram ... and many others from HGK for Web Master Dave to post soon. But now, it's time for the 20+ hour ride home to Boston.
How about the train from the airport to town. I like the map that lights up the route as you go. No railfanning and the glass platform doors like the Jubilee extension in London.
Too bad you didn't get to Japan. The best electric trains in the world.
This Day in History
November 22nd, 2002
1950...79 people are killed, and hundreds more are injured when two Long Island Railroad trains collide in Richmond Hill, Queens.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thirteen years before another awful day.
And on Nov. 22, 1963, JFK was assassinated. I still remember that day. I was in first grade and the announcement came over the PA early that afternoon. Our nun just clasped her hands and sighed. Can't remember if we were sent home early or not.
I was in second grade. The principal came into the class and told us the President had been shot. The teacher sat down at her desk and started crying. The school was dismissed early and I walked home, where I found my mother and grandmother in the den watching the TV and crying.
An even more remarkable event in LIRR history occurred 14 years ago. Something that never occurred before and hasn't since.
A train was on time.
lol
Not the "Phantom Train" - the 7:55 out of Babylon.:)
I think we should all be somewhat grateful that there have not been any major accidents since the 1950s on the LIRR, since they are the largest communter railroad in the country.
Take NY1's POLL
Peace,
ANDEE
Take NY1's POLL
Peace,
ANDEE
Make your voice heard COMMENT HERE ON FARE INCREASE
Peace,
ANDEE
Make your voice heard COMMENT HERE ON FARE INCREASE
Peace,
ANDEE
An article in Friday's Courier-Post states that the state attorney general hired special counsel to investigate the SNJLRTS.
"We'll be looking into every aspect of the project to ascertain if public money was appropriately spent and to make sure no appointed or elected officials have done anything wrong," said Mike Perrucci, a lawyer with the New York firm Fischbein, Badillo, Wagner and Harding...
Based on a feasibility study that took less than 45 days, then-Transportation Commissioner Frank Wilson guided the project to approval by NJ Transit's board of directors in November 1996.
Wilson resigned shortly thereafter and took a job with Daniel, Mann, Johnson and Mendenhall, the firm that conducted the feasibility study and has gone on to make approximately $70 million designing the line and overseeing its construction.
Wilson denies any conflict of interest.
""We'll be looking into every aspect of the project to ascertain if public money was appropriately spent and to make sure no appointed or elected officials have done anything wrong," said Mike Perrucci, a lawyer with the New York firm Fischbein, Badillo, Wagner and Harding... "
There's something extremely ironic about a law firm with the names Badillo, Wagner, and Harding in it doing an investigation of this sort. Three consumate politicians who have played every angle there is to play!
The article also mentions that the EZ-Pass project will be undergoing a similar scrutiny... I don't know enough about the politics of the light rail project to comment, but from what I've seen of the EZ-Pass mess that one reeked from the get-go.
At least the state is remaining committed to the light rail, regardless of how much sleight-of-hand may have been involved in its creation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My fear is that since the rail line seems to have been built for all the wrong reasons, it might notbe that succesful...what I mean is that they may have built without regard to real need. Without real need the line may turn into a white elephant. That's no good, because then NIMBYs and other asosrted rail opponents across the country could begin citing this case as "proof" that proposed rail projects will be "boondoggles" while ignoring the slew of other successful light rail projects in the country.
Mark
Not only that, but from what I've gathered, a different right-of-way in the same region would have been much better suited for the light raNot only that, but from what I've gathered, a different right-of-way in the same region would have been much better suited for the light rail line and would have been much more convenient and practical for potential riders. I'm not familiar with the area so I can't give any details, but that's what I understand. What could have been done, and I'm not saying it would necessarily have been a better idea, but they could have used the current ROW as a commuter rail line between Trenton and Philadelphia, like the SEPTA R-7 line, only on the New Jersey side of the Hud- uh, Delaware...
The two other better options were both squashed by local politics. Specifically, the proposed line to Mt. Holly was killed because Moorestown NJ, (a snooty suburb) would have had to demolish all of its lo-income housing which are currently like 10 feet away from the current freight line. Due to state or federal requirements, Moorestown would have had to build new lo-income housing somewhere else in their extremely high property value town, which was simply something locals were not willing to do.
A line to Glassboro would have been better suited to commuter rail and there was some local political opposition for some reason.
Anyway, the state HAD to spend transit $$ in South Jersey, but were blocked from spending it where it would do any good.
Not only that, but from what I've gathered, a different right-of-way in the same region would have been much better suited for the light raNot only that, but from what I've gathered, a different right-of-way in the same region would have been much better suited for the light rail line and would have been much more convenient and practical for potential riders. I'm not familiar with the area so I can't give any details, but that's what I understand. What could have been done, and I'm not saying it would necessarily have been a better idea, but they could have used the current ROW as a commuter rail line between Trenton and Philadelphia, like the SEPTA R-7 line, only on the New Jersey side of the Hud- uh, Delaware...
I also hope that the whole SNJLR controversy does not jepordize other transit projects, such as the M-O-M commuter line, to which there is high opposition, and plans for the Bergen Arches corridor, which is a tossup between a transit/light rail line and a roadway. Even future expansions of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, Newark Subway and Newark-Elizabeth light rail.
The Blue Line grows by another 3 stations...11-22-80
The Blue Line is extended east of Stadium-Armory with the opening
of the Benning Road, Capitol Heights and Addison Road Stations.
The Blue Line now runs from National Airport to Addison Road, The Orange Line runs from New Carollton to Ballston, The Red Line operates from Dupont Circle to Silver Spring.
Mark
The Queens Edition of Newsday has one of our favorite R type on the from page. It only has to share 1/4 of the page with James Bond :-(
But nice to see just the same.
Here is the URL:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-nymta223013883nov22,0,7878203.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dright%2Darea
Thanks for that link to the photo. It's just what I needed to cheer up this dreary day.
--Brian
Could those be mainline R-33s? Why, the marker lights and front signs are lit!
The photo on the paper is above ground vs. Times Sq.
The caption says there are several photos, but only one came up.
Attention Philly area SubTalkers:
DVARP Reading shopping train on Saturday Dec 7 will run on the High Line since the connection between 30th and Park Junction has been removed. The train will back out of 30th to CP Phil, then reverse direction and pass Arsenal Tower to get onto the High Line to enable it to enter the Reading at Park Junction.
Gee, do railfans shop at factory stores ?
Mostly clothing & shoes ... I was real bored the last time my wife had me tag along :-(
That's it! This is a giant plot on the part of all the train widows out there to get their revenge!
:)
Mark
What is with the change of voice on the #5 line. It sounds horrible, like the R-142's on the #4 line. The old announcements on the #5 was the best of the fleet (In my opion).
All I have to say is get use to it. Soon the No.2,4,5,6 Lines will have the same voice which comes with updated announcements and destination programs.
I rode R142 #6758 on the 2 yesterday. It had "The Next Stop Is" as part of inside electronic signs and updated announcements. But most of the station annoucements were the same as the original announcement program. All of the transfers, except to the M60 at 125th and to the 1 and 9 trains at 96th and 72nd, were different. But none of them sounded like the "no-nonsense" voice of the 4 line announcements.
Car # 6758 or set 6756-60 are part of the #5 line fleet and probably got updated info.
Yes it did. Most of the r142's on the 5 Line have the new programs. There are working on the 6700's right now. Last night I seen a train at Union Port with # 7 signs so since I had a train with the new program I decided to check all the lines out and the 142 can now be programed to run on all IRT Lines even the GC Shuttle.
I saw two sets of R142s signed up as the 7. I wonder if the included gap stations and stations that u can turn from as part of their destinations. Example: 96St-Bway,34-Penn Sta, Times Sq. etc....
Nevermind. Thanks for the email.
For those of you unfamiliar, Silver Leaf Rapid Transit was the business my brother Leigh and I had that dealt in hobby goods and also published in the transit field, before LBJ broke us up to save the world.
I was "out of the trade" for years, but now that I'm back in to some extent, I keep running into "Silver Leafers," people who remember our work in the '60s and '70s. A lot of these people post right here on SubTalk and not a few are transit professionals ('though some were barely more than kids, back then). I was surprised last year when I was visiting NJT HQ and was told that an official of 21st Century Rail wanted to meet me (that's HBLR). Turns out he wanted to reminisce about visiting the temple of rapid transit, 43 Marlborough Road, Flatbush, during the mid '60s.
How many of you folks here would like to check in as Silver Leafers? I know who a lot of you are, but maybe you don't want to advertise it. ;-)
Paul, I can't post about myself (having been merely a tike back in those days), but can vouche for the Miller brothers, of whom both I met during a walking tour of the old Degnon Terminal (LIC).
They told me how they recalled your publications and looked forward to every issue. I don't believe they post at SubTalk unfortunately. In fact they may not even be cyber-equipped.
One of the brothers was very much involved in gaining landmark status for the segment of the LI Motor Parkway that meanders through Queens (it was in Newsday fairly recently.
Thanks, Doug,
Yes, Long Island Motor Parkway is coming up in the world. Kevin has a page, which also points to a lot of other resources.
It is "The Road That Moses Killed."
Don't forget Sam Berliner's comprehensive page which unfortunately has a complicated URL:
http://home.att.net/~berliner-ultrasonics/limtrpwy.html
None o' those new-falutin' JPEGS for Sam, so grab a beer and a samwich while you wait for the photos to load.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Your publication was the first public circulation material on the NYC system. The ERA and NY Division published their material as a service to their membership and out of reach of non-members (it also lacked pictures). During the 60's and 70's the ERA book store would stock books on almost any city except NYC as there was no one interested in writing on NYC.
The Third Rail and Silver Leaf was the only thing on New York City Rapid Transit until National ERA sold "Tracks of New York". That however, did not cover transit in the ground.
How about taking credit for offering the first subway model, your BMT standard!
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
Your publication was the first public circulation material on the NYC system. The ERA and NY Division published their material as a service to their membership and out of reach of non-members (it also lacked pictures). During the 60's and 70's the ERA book store would stock books on almost any city except NYC as there was no one interested in writing on NYC.
Thanks for the praise, Phil. It hadn't occurred to me how sparse the ERA was on NYC coverage in those days, but I think part of the reason may be that, from the end of WWII to the '60s, trolley systems were disappearing so fast that everyone's focus was on running around the country, riding and photographing and recording before it was all gone. The New York subway underwent changes in the era, but none quite so dramatic as the mass trolley abandonments (including NYC, of course).
How about taking credit for offering the first subway model, your BMT standard!
I'm very proud of the Standard. At the time my brother was drafted, we were assembling material to produce the Triplex. Seiichi Kumata, our Japanese builder, had experience in building articulated cars from a Key System model that was produced (IIRC) for Ken Kidder.
However, our BMT Standard was the second U.S. prototype subway car made for the commercial market in the U.S. The first (by a year or so) was an IRT Lo-V machined and assembled by a gentleman in Farmingdale, LI (whose name escapes me). It did not sell a great number and must now be exceedingly rare. IIRC, his company was "Traction Models" and his claim to fame was probably not the IRT Car but his production of the first completely underfloor motor truck in HO.
Paul,
Even though I was born in 1956, once I got a paper route, I saved up and bought 3 of your BMT Standards. The motor drives gave out on them, hence I sold them in the mid 1980s. How I wish I kept them.
Can anyone interest you and producing the ABs and D-types in O scale?
Hot Lunch!
You could have done the Franklin Shuttle. :) Did you ever paint them? A lot of modelers liked to keep the cars brass in those days.
Can anyone interest you and producing the ABs and D-types in O scale?
Probably not. Don't have the capital and the field is a lot different from when I was in it. Part of the reason for Silver Leaf was that I wanted a BMT Standard model and no one was making it, or even vaguely interested in making one. Now you have Q-car and MTS and rapid transit modeling is quite a viable field without me.
You might be interested to know that our first interest was in making O Scale--we were members of the "O Scale Manufacturers Association," really a one-man advertising co-op. But all we sold in O Scale were some British coaches and really nice stone masonry. WHen it came to producing models, the market was in HO, unless you had a big line and lots of cash flow.
Paul,
Thank you for the reply. BTW, Don Harold sends his best regards. No, I did not paint them. I was lucky enough in the 80s (oops, my wife might kill me for this choice of words!)to be single with a decent paying job. This allowed me to amass a collection of MTS and WP brass models of numerous cars.
Alas, as I said before, I did not keep your ABs, but I keep an eye out for them.
Yes the market is so different today for the better, but I do not think anyone will ever produce the ABs and D-types in O gauge.
Hot Lunch!
It's been so very long since I've seen Don Harold. I hope he is well and enjoying himself.
I wouldn't know where to look for Silver Leaf Standards--I've never seen them on eBay, not that I've looked that hard.
Perhaps someday what goes around well come around and I will do models again. Would be nice... :)
And yet another Silver Leafer is heard from. I have, I believe, a complete collection of all of the publications, though not the models. Speaking of the BMT Standards, I saw two at the Red Caboose this past May.
One subject I was introduced to was chaining. After reading about in in a Silver Leaf booklet, I was able to observe how it was practiced on Chicago's "L". The SIRT book was probably the inspiration for first riding that line in the early 70's.
Hi, George,
Speaking of the BMT Standards, I saw two at the Red Caboose this past May.
Silver Leaf brass Standards?
They were brass, HO, and they were BMT Standards, I'm not sure of their origin. As far as I know, Silver Leaf was the only source of BMT Standards. I have heard of plans for a resin or urethane model using the brass as a pattern.
Do you recall how much they wanted for them? The original price was $35 for a motor car, $27.50 for a trailer.
I have a resin BMT Standard car body somewhere--I think it's from Q-car--not sure. Anyway, it looks like it was cast from the brass model, rivert for rivet, except it had a 2000-style roof, not a 2600 style.
Don't quote me, but I believe they were in the $500 range.
Don't quote me, but I believe they were in the $500 range
(* gasps *)
Paul,
I would like to thank you and your brother very much for the finely produced and informative publications that Silver Leaf put out during the 1960's.
I found out about Silver Leaf as a 15 year old in early 1965 about a year or so before I joined the ERA. I picked up the issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, February 1965, Rapid Transit--Part 2 in my local candy store out on Long Island. A letter to the editor in that issue showed the Issue cover for Rapid Transit--Part 1 with the Gate climbing the el structure from Fresh Pond (what a great shot, and in color!). I immediately sent away for it, and my reading/collecting material about the subway system began.
Generally published, in print, material on the NY subway system was almost impossible to find in those days. Before I joined the ERA your brochures and booklets were the beginnings of my collection and among my first introductions to transit history.
My first purchases were your well produced brochures on slick paper stock about the AB's and then later, the Q's - the latter backed with your description of the 1200 series el car (?) model that featured a nice sketch of them over a Brooklyn street. These two became an early cornerstone of my "BMT file" as I learned about its history and Rolling stock.
I also purchased Rapid Transit Car & Layout Design Booklet No. 3 - the earlier two booklets I think were out of print by that time. I particularly liked that one for it's text and great selection of photos. I carry around that view of the Ninth Ave. el in my head, for a comforting bit of time travel in my mind, every time I go over that way to visit a friend. Your Reservoir view in that book is now historic also - I lived in Boston for many years, and saw that right of way change when it was renovated.
I recall getting your announcement for the Staten Island Rapid Transit Book, so I ordered it and waited eagerly till it came. That is not only an excellent transit history publication, but valuable local history as well. I have seen your on-line edition of it, but do hope you can republish it. The last publication I bought was the first issue of the Third Rail (summer 1966) with the D-Type on the cover. I still have all of these, re-read them when I can, and would never part with them. Thanks to both of you so much again for all your efforts!
- Ed
Thanks for all the kind words, Ed. It makes me feel good to know that Silver Leaf had such a positive impact on your railfanning. I'm happy to say that other Silver Leafer's who helped with material in those days continued their efforts after Silver Leaf passed out of the print arena. I'm thinking of Jim Greller's late lamented Electrolines and his BMT books. And Al Fazio is co-authoring a work on BMT technology to be published by Xplorer Press.
Paul: You know that I contacted you when I first saw your name on this board. Your publications were always of the highest quality and most informative. I've said many times on this board that the Staten Island Rapid Transit Book was the best single volume treatment of any electric rail line that I have ever read. My personal favorite is the Summer 1966 issue of Third Rail Magazine which not only contained the story of the restoration of the old IRT and BMT cars to form the nucleus of the transit museum, but which also had an in-depth look at "trolley-rapid" operations.
Many thabks for much good reading over the years.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul: You know that I contacted you when I first saw your name on this board. The Silver Leaf publications were always of the highest quality and very informative. I've stated several times on this board that the Staten Island Rapid Transit Board was the best single volume treatment of any electric railway line that I have ever read.
My personal favorite is the Summer 1965 Issue of Third Rail Magazine which details the restoration of the old IRT and BMT cars to form the nucleus of the transit museum fleet. There was also that in-depth look at "trolley-rapid" operations throughout the country.
Many thanks for much good information and much enjoyable reading over the years.
Larry,Redbird R33
Thanks much, Larry. And if not for your kindness, I wouldn't have a copy of Booklet #2. :)
I learned about Silver Leaf from your website, and was lucky enough to find a copy of "Staten Island Rapid Transit" a few months ago. I believe that it is the only book ever written about the SIRT. I'd love to see it re-published with (I hope) color photos.
(BTW, I lived near your old Brooklyn neighborhood until 1990, have you been back there lately?)
I believe that it is the only book ever written about the SIRT.
Only complete history to date.
(BTW, I lived near your old Brooklyn neighborhood until 1990, have you been back there lately?)
I used to travel through there frequently. My wife also lived there during the '70s. The last time I actually walked the immediate neighborhood was about 1989. Where did you live?
Most of Church Avenue is unrecognizable from when I lived there.
Interesting reading...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/11/22/lost.found.ap/index.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is a very interesting article. Actually, I saw a show about that on the Discovery Channel or something a while back. It did show the artificial leg. I thought this part of the article was interesting:
Perhaps the oddest item to make it to the lost-and-found was an urn of human ashes, although that may have been a product of intentional forgetfulness.
The urn was never claimed, said Fred Chidester, an ex-cop who managed the lost-and-found for years. Months later, a man called Metro-North to say that he had read about the abandoned ashes; he claimed he knew the woman who left them on the train -- as revenge for her husband's alleged infidelity.
Only in New York......
Hello. I am a first time poster, but I have lurked on this board for some time now. I interviewed for a technical position with Metro North, and I am waiting to hear if they make me an offer.
I was wondering if anyone here currently works or has worked for Metro North, and if they could supply me with some feedback (i.e. do you like working for Metro North, how is your salary/benefits/work environment, etc.)
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Dave
I found this project in the current issue of Time Out New York.
Every week day at 5:30 PM, Brooklyn artist Tamara Gubernat will be at the turnstile entrance of different station along the G train. She will be handing out postcard size photographs of the neighborhoods that the G train passes under. Although the G is rather slow and the stations not very exciting, it does pass under many interesting neighborhoods.
Her schedule is:
Fri Nov 22 Clinton Washington
Mon Nov 25 Classon Ave
Tue Nov 26 Bedford Nostrand
Wed Nov 27 Myrtle Willoughby
Oh no, now she'll have to deal with some "sparks" every day that she's there < g >
Hopefully, we will be updated as to the station she will be at.
I'm looking forward to greeting her at Nassau Avenue, less the
sparks. No, I'm not going to every station, no matter what that
Bus guys says.
;-) Sparky
After reading that Long Island commuters are facing subway and LIRR ticket increase and Mayor Bloomberg wants to impose a commuter, we may as well stay home for good and have the city see its economy go down and we all build up Long Island economy to surpase the city in every which way we can. If we don't say a word about this, many middle and working class commuter will be greatly affected by these increases and as our local economy is down in the dumps, forget about asking your boss for a raise to cover the increase in commuting.
Far be it for me to take your side, since I am a city resident, but don't the companies that employ non-city residents pay taxes which should cover the so-called "services" provided to commuters? This is how it works in other parts of the country -- nationwide, a very small number of people actually live in the same municipality in which they work.
Does not the real problem lie with our penchant for Corporate Welfare? The city's biggest employers have played the Relocation Card with skill, garnering disgusting tax-breaks by threatening to bolt to Denver, Houston, Charlotte or (God forbid!) Jersey City. Why should the poor, Silver Snail-riding schlubs who haven't gotten a raise or bonus in 2 years make up this difference?! If companies want to employ the type of people who need to live in Mineola, Greenwich or White Plains, they, and not their employees, should be willing to pay for the cache of locating in the Capital of the World.
Agreed. For instance: The vast majority of the Wall Street crowd is from LI or NJ. Bet your bottom dollar that the salaries for those workers top anything most people earn who live within city limits. Those firms should be the ones paying the extra tab if they feel that their workforce has to commute from 20-50 miles from the work location.
The vast majority of the Wall Street crowd is from LI or NJ. Bet your bottom dollar that the salaries for those workers top anything most people earn who live within city limits. Those firms should be the ones paying the extra tab if they feel that their workforce has to commute from 20-50 miles from the work location.
Many major employers do help with employee commuting costs through participation in the Transit Check program.
This Long Islander (born and raised in NYC) says: we haven't had an increase since '95. The diesel fleet is brand new and the electric fleet will soon be. (Those of you who remember what service used to be in the 1960's and 70's have to admit that service is much, much, much better, too - remember the infamous 7:55 Babylon to Brooklyn that was cancelled almost everyday for what seemed like years!)An increase of 20% is not outlandish.
Also, Long Island could never sustain it's own economy without NYC. Even During WWII and the Cold War, when LI had a lot of defense industries, it was our connections with NYC that made LI (Especially Nassau)one of the more affluent areas to live in - "NYC's Bedroom" is the term I remember.
Also, Long Island could never sustain it's own economy without NYC. Even During WWII and the Cold War, when LI had a lot of defense industries, it was our connections with NYC that made LI (Especially Nassau)one of the more affluent areas to live in - "NYC's Bedroom" is the term I remember.
This is so true. This also comes from a Long Islander, also born and raised in NYC. LI needs the city, just as much as the city needs it's suburbs. It does not have to be city vs. suburbs, which always seems to be what it turns into.
Long Island is a great place to live because of NYC nearby. It is also great for the city that you can go only 60 miles from the city and wind up in a fairly rural place (for now) and a little more than that and it is still very rural. You need both, and they need to coexist, not be suburb against the city or city against suburb.
...Exactly. the only question now is how to best spread around the pain . hopefully that can be done without too much drama.
The money is being funneled to certain hands, so that certain pockets can be lined with it. Not yours, and certainly not mine.
Sixty? That's a lot. If you go just 35 miles from Philadelphia into Bucks County, it gets pretty rural fast.
Sixty? That's a lot. If you go just 35 miles from Philadelphia into Bucks County, it gets pretty rural fast.
True, but New York is a much bigger city than Philadelphia. It's all relative. I think that for a city as big as New York, even 60 miles is pretty good.
Long Island is a great place to live because of NYC nearby. It is also great for the city that you can go only 60 miles from the city and wind up in a fairly rural place (for now) and a little more than that and it is still very rural. You need both, and they need to coexist, not be suburb against the city or city against suburb.
City/suburb coexistence is sadly not a notion that has much following in the New York area. For reasons which probably no one fully understands, people around here think much more parochially than regionally, a mindset that decreases the region's competitiveness vs. other parts of the country.
The "parochial" mentality is even MORE insane upstate. In our own area, we have Albany, Schenectady and Troy literally a hop, skip and a jump from one another. And yet, each city (particularly Bruno's Troylet) is busy trying to loot jobs and businesses from their NEIGHBORS instead of trying to bring new jobs and businesses into the AREA. Gotta be seen to be believed. It's like watching three card Monty ... and whatever anyplace around here manages to do, there's Joey Bruno trying to hijack them to Troy. Eventually they relent, move to Troy and a year later, they move to Michigan. Or Texas.
>>>An increase of 20% is not outlandish. <<<
True, less than the 33% being proposed for the subways and far less than the 100% increase when the subway fare went from a nickle to a dime.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, please. stay home. Don't come back until you've showered. :o)
Heh. I'm just kidding. In all seriousness though, there's a nice little editorial on the NY times site today regarding all the new taxes, raised fares, etc - basically spelling out how everyone is saying someone else ought to pay for the budget problems which are (keep in mind) not just an NYC problem, but an NY state problem. I don't like paying more for these things myself, but if taxes got to go up for some people, they got to go up for everyone...
ah well. the boat is sinking, every man woman and child for himself, I suppose... no need to stay calm...
HELLO ALL:
We recently changed our operating procedure here at the MBTA, we now require sealed beam headlights on at all times on the Red, Orange, and Blue lines (subway).
To the best of my knowledge, the only city in North America that doesn't use sealed beams at all times is Montreal (their trains never leave underground, even the yards are covered).
Can anyone provide better info, or give me info on Mexico City? Based on the photos in Metroplanet, Monterrey uses sealed beams all the time.
THANK YOU!
Conrad Misek
While on the #7 subway, something very bizarre caught my eye...the last car #1715, had inside a Green (aka. Lexington Ave. color) #8 line(8) with the destination to Chambers St. and on the outside of the car, it had a Green #12 line(12)with the same destination!. I know and everyone else knows theres no #8 or #12 and i even on another occasion, I saw a Purple #11 instead of the regular #7 destination sign. Does anyone know why the MTA have these imaginary routes inside the #7 train?
There are there if the MTA choose to use them for any future route that should arise. Likewise, the Division B trains have letters that are not used that can be in future plans.
Dont feel bad last Friday I rode R 62A 1706 and it had a green 12 sign Main street Flushing queens Chambers street Manhattan "12"
yeah, i saw that brown "R" sign as well. Seems rather odd that they would still keep these signs in circulation after all of these years. I don't think its too difficult to remove them with the modern routes,....or maybe it is??? :/
Correct. I assume routes like the "V", and "W" were in the rollsigns already long before they decided to use those letters. In addition, there are older routes that are still in the rollsigns also. For example, there are probably blue "K"'s there from when the K used to run on 8th Ave in the 80's.
Anyone know of any other colors or letters that are in some of the rollsigns? I believe there is a gray "Y" or something (I forgot what letter) from when there was a skip-stop service planned to run with the L.
For example, there are probably blue "K"'s there from when the K used to run on 8th Ave in the 80's.
I know the R46's have the blue "K", the JFK Express, the BLUE "S" (why is it here and not on R44's?), and the brown diamond "R", to name a few.
As far as the Y, there are (I've seen them on the R32 and took pictures because I was bored :-):
"P", "T", "U", "X", and "Y". All of them are black letters on a white/grey bullet. No route information with them.
Also there was " Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton", and " Nassau/4 Av"
It was the 110B that had the gray K for Canarsie skip stop service. Also an orange A, for when they toyed with sending it to Brighton Beach. These have been dropped on the new signs coming out, which have even gone back to thw blue K.
Oh, this all reminds me. I was finishing up at Astoria today, and saw the upside down diamond W in the R-40 slant I was riding in. I try to fix it by scrolling one space so that it would be right sinde up on the outside, and the one for the inside would appear. But the other "W" was also upside down! Big mistake! Oneis suposed to be upside down from the other so they can both be right side up on the inside and outside, but on this sign they are both upside down on the inside, and both right side up on the outside. So it had to go down as a yellow diamind "M". (didn't bother to get car #, but was south motor).
So it had to go down as a yellow diamind "M". (didn't bother to get car #, but was south motor
A yellow diamond M? What in the world could that be for?
Here is my prediction on the fare hike situation based on current events. This will be posted on both Talks.
What is being covered up here is very important. It's called the MTA FAREBOX RECOVERY RATIO. The current average fare is $1.06 on a $1.50 base fare. Yes, considering the MetroCard deals, I believe that this number is accurate. We can always check at www.ntdprogram.com, where we can divide the agency's revenues by total unlinked trips and see what we get. This represents a fare DECREASE since the last hike because the fare was $1.50 with ZERO deals and no systemwide bus to subway transfer (only to the Bx55 and Q4, Q5, Q42, Q83, Q84, Q85). I find it hard to believe that our fare decreased by almost 33%. A $2 fare would effectively get us back almost to the 1995 base fare in terms of actual money that we pay. If these numbers are cooked, send me the info.
Another revelation: the deficit is $1.1 billion, not $663 million. Silly me, thinking that the real figures would be floating around before the election. In 1999 and 2000, Carl McCall specifically stated that a fare hike should be implemented because the MTA needed to raise revenues to pay off their revenue bonds or risk their capital program, which had a $3+ billion hole TO START WITH. He said the fare should go up 25 to 50 cents...wait, that's $1.75 to $2.00...in EARLY 2000! Did anyone say anything about changing the formula THEN? Of course not, because we were too busy watching the sexy New Flyers and R-142s and MCI D4500s waltz in amid happy cheers from everyone. We danced to the music, it's time to pay the piper.
Here's the next revelation: Off-peak service cuts don't save very much money. How many buses sit in the garage during off-peak hours. The subway and railroad yards are filled with rail cars during off-peak hours. That's not where the money is being spent! It's the peak hour service that costs big bucks...why are so many transit agencies eager to hire PART-TIME LABOR? Well, splits cost big bucks. So do $350,000 motorcoaches that make 20 trips per week. Notice that the $2 fare will cover NYCT's contribution to the deficit with no government aid...any other proposal requires higher property and school taxes for SelkirkTMO, and a massive property tax hike in NYC that will make commuting from Trenton cheaper than living in the city (Bloomberg's big fear about his property tax hike is that the residents who can afford it will skip town...hence, the commuter tax). Therefore, a $1.75 transit fare will see RUSH HOUR service reductions, such as fewer subway trains on the L, G, and M lines because these are politically weak service areas. We will see express bus service reductions of up to 20% because that could raise the load factor on the existing buses from 35-40 passengers a bus to around 50 per bus, meaning systemwide standees between 6:30 and 8 on Staten Island, a borough that needs its express buses as much as the other boroughs need subways.
Here's another revelation: It's a possibility that the union may strike. Something tells me that Bloomberg will let them walk...after all, if Queens residents were willing to pay $1.50 plus a subway fare to get to work because of a localized bus strike, just imagine the outcry when all of the workers walk off the job. Then the news media will grab the most irate people they can find and stick them in front of the camera. It's all a big game: Local 100 gets the majority of their requests met, but they have to allow Regional Bus to go through (you think that the restructuring just meant all blue and white buses instead of two different paint schemes?). All of these plans are being made, assuming that the transit fare is $2.
Yes, it's a long post, but let's summarize my PREDICTIONS:
1) The fare is going up to $2...there is no way the fare will be anything less than that. There IS no other option. However, the railroad burden will be slightly less than proposed (they use their state senators more effectively...it's just the way it is).
2) The Straphangers' Campaign and all other genuine fare hike dissenters (don't believe the hype from Pataki...he doesn't want to have the fare hike on his hands, so he'll pass it to Bloomberg; likewise, the TWU's fare hike stance is RUBBISH) will be silenced by a massive shutdown of transit services due to a strike. This strike will be settled by December 30 so that the transit system is operational for First Night festivities. The general public will realize that they'll just have to fork over $2 because they cannot live without the transit system.
3) TWU Local 100 will receive a new contract to their liking in exchange for Regional Bus. Regional Bus elements will start to appear in the bus system in September 2003, with the integration of the franchise bus companies during 1st quarter 2004. The X23 and X24 will not enter the system before August 2004.
4) Railroad fares will go up about five percentage points less than planned in order to appease their riders and to thank them for putting up with higher transit fares.
OK, fire away.
"I find it hard to believe that our fare decreased by almost 33%."
It hasn't really. With free bus-subway transfers, lots of people are taking short bus trips they never would have paid $1.50 for. But now that they're free, they take them.
But the fare has definitely gone down to $1.36 for anyone willing to make a slight effort, and lower for people formerly living in genuine 2-fare zones.
("I find it hard to believe that our fare decreased by almost 33%." It hasn't really. With free bus-subway transfers, lots of people are taking short bus trips they never would have paid $1.50 for.
But now that they're free, they take them.)
I agree that the $1.07 fare is overhyped. Much of it is hopping on a bus for two blocks if it's there.
(But the fare has definitely gone down to $1.36 for anyone willing to make a slight effort, and lower for people formerly living in genuine 2-fare zones.)
There is one other benefit -- the "linked trip" becomes a free option -- hop off, do an errand, hop on.
(OK, fire away.)
A $2.00 fare won't cover it. The city and state are going to cut their contributions to the budget. So you will have service cuts in the city as well.
I'm not sure that the TWU gets a contract to their liking if they strike. That would set a pattern, and reward a strike. More likely, you'll get a long hold out this time. Pataki has no reason to care what the effect is on city riders, and breaking a union would help him in Upstate and Republican circles. Make him a "law and order" guy.
I agree that the tolls and commuter rail fares will go up less than the subway. And NYC school aid will be cut much more than average. But rent control will be renewed.
>>>But rent control will be renewed. <<<
It's rent stabilization, rent control has been non-exsistent for a number of years now. But, nontheless, I hope it is renewed.
Peace,
ANDEE
June, 2003 is when it expires. Budget is due on (oh what an appropriate day) April 1, 2003 ... Budget is NEVER done on time and often goes past June before it's enacted. Watch Bruno hold it hostage again. And Bruno has ALWAYS blamed NYC's financial shortfalls on suppressed commercial real estate values on this philosophical basis. The finances for the city and the MTA are SO bad, this time it just might not pass ... something ELSE to keep a wary eye on ...
Amazingly, there's people that recently went to vote for whom all of this is a SURPRISE. :(
BRUNO=SCUM, IMO
Peace,
ANDEE
Now don't be insulting scum. :)
Perhaps you have a State Senator or Assemblyman who isn't scum? Remember, your representative has cast only one significant vote in their entire career -- electing Bruno and Silver. That's if they are in the majority. Otherwise, they have had no significant votes.
Both my state Senator (Breslin, D [senate minority]) and my Assemblyhole (McEneny, D [Assembly majority]) are boobs. But Breslin just voted for Patterson (good thing) and McEneny is ignored by Silver (also good - I *like* Silver because he's the only one around who can poke Paturkey and Bruno in the eye - imagine a Triumvirat of three all on the same side like we have in DC. Yipe.
But no, neither's scummy, they're just ineffective BOOBS. :)
>>> This represents a fare DECREASE since the last hike because the fare was $1.50 with ZERO deals <<<
Really? There were no handicapped discounts before then? They are probably the biggest factor which reduces the average fare.
Tom
Absolutely untrue. Because the NYC subways are full of barriers, extremely small numbers of disabled individuals travel underground. They represent a tiny speck in the total trips calculation. While the bus system has moved rapidly to become 100% accessible, disabled riders paying half fare are still too small a percentage to significantly impact the average fare statistic (which is just that, only a statistic).
There is no question that Metrocard has created a significant fare decrease for New York riders. And if that means people use the system more than in the "token" days, so much the better.
>>> Because the NYC subways are full of barriers, extremely small numbers of disabled individuals travel underground. They represent a tiny speck in the total trips calculation. <<<
But doesn't "MTA fare box recovery" include buses also? Unless all the disabled are riding in taxis, I would assume the discounts for them lowers the average fare, and isn't there a discount for students also? And if the figures were obtained by counting heads, non-revenue passengers such as employees would also depress the average fare.
Tom
I think you mean the discount for the elderly. I ride lots a fair number of buses and the disabled are less than 1%. The elderly could be considerable. But even if they are 10% (which I think is way high), giving them half off amounts to an overall 5% discount, or less than a $.05 increase in the average fare if you eliminated the discount.
My total unscientific guess is that the elderly are 10% on buses but only 3% on subways.
>>> My total unscientific guess is that the elderly are 10% on buses but only 3% on subways. <<<
Then how are they getting around? Elderly and disabled are more than 10% of the general adult population, and they are less likely to drive than younger able bodied adults. They may not be traveling to the CBD as much, but I suspect they are using public transportation in the outer boroughs.
Tom
"Then how are they getting around? Elderly and disabled are more than 10% of the general adult population, and they are less likely to drive than younger able bodied adults."
They travel much less.
I certainly don't have scientific numbers, but my observations are in neighborhoods with a high percentage of elderly people.
As I usually use transit off-peak, I can say that elderly people tend to do the same. Around 11 AM M10123 could be mostly riders with discounts.
Arti
>>>...extremely small numbers of disabled individuals travel underground. <<<
Untrue, you must remember that disabled individuals also include the mentaly disabled, whose disabilaties may not be apparent to the rest of us,
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> that disabled individuals also include the mentaly disabled <<<
Are you sure of that? When we were discussing disabled fares several months ago, I reviewed the New York eligibility rules for reduced fares. I was surprised to find that they seemed much more strict than most other systems, and I do not remember any reduced fare for mental disabilities, or other invisible disabilities such as heart trouble.
Tom
http://www.mta.info/nyct/fare/pdf/disabled.pdf
Look at pages 4-6, which describe the various types of disabilities MTA accepts in its half-fare program. Mental impairment is among them.
David
Look at pages 4-6, which describe the various types of disabilities MTA accepts in its half-fare program. Mental impairment is among them.
Wonderful. The subway needs more mentally ill passengers like I need a hole in the head.
There is a regular poster here who recieves an RFM due to a mental disability.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does the average fare statistic count a bus rider who transfes the subway as two rides paying a total of $1.50 or as one fare
>>"This represents a fare DECREASE since the last hike because the fare was $1.50 with ZERO deals and no systemwide bus to subway transfer (only to the Bx55 and Q4, Q5, Q42, Q83, Q84, Q85)."<<
>>"There was a 3/4 transfer to the B46 at Utica Av as well.Another revelation: the deficit is $1.1 billion, not $663 million. Silly me, thinking that the real figures would be floating around before the election. In 1999 and 2000, Carl McCall specifically stated that a fare hike should be implemented because the MTA needed to raise revenues to pay off their revenue bonds or risk their capital program, which had a $3+ billion hole TO START WITH. He said the fare should go up 25 to 50 cents...wait, that's $1.75 to $2.00...in EARLY 2000! Did anyone say anything about changing the formula THEN? Of course not, because we were too busy watching the sexy New Flyers and R-142s and MCI D4500s waltz in amid happy cheers from everyone. We danced to the music, it's time to pay the piper."<<
LOL sexy New Flyers and R142's where did you come up to call them sexy. But in all seriousness, they are paying way too much for faulty subway cars from BOMBADIER! and I hope the MTA severs their ties wih them. Wow talks of a fare hike went all the way back to 2000, now that's surprising.
You're right, it is the rush hour and frequent lines that are every 5-7 min throughout the day off-peak (1,4,6,7) that provides the most costs.
My predictions on this situation.
1. The fares will go to $1.75 but I think they'll find a way to minimze or avoid service cuts.
2. There will be no strike, it will come to a resolution just like in 1999[I doubt people will risk to lose 2 days for every day they strike]
3. I think the TWU will get a new contract but will not get what they ask for. The Queens privates I believe will be integrated into the MTA next year to eliminate subsidies, LI Bus & NYCT will be 1 bus system, NYBS will give up its express bus division [it'll be sad b/c they knew how to take care of buses] and the X23, X24 will become part of the NYCT express bus system, I just can't predict when.
4. About railroad fares, that's going to be iffy but I think it's going to go up by 15%, MAYBE 20% in both railroads.
5. No matter how bad things are, Mayor Doomberg will get his way with imposing the commuter tax and toll increases but its unlikely he will get to create tolls on the East Side bridges
6. Express fares are definitely going back to $4, the fun pass goes to $5, the 7 day to $20, the 30 day will go to $75 and the 30 day express card will go $160
Bloomberg won't get his commuter tax. Everyone is going to get hit with a batch of new local taxes within a 120 mile radius of NYC because the entire tri-state region and PA are in financial difficulty, particularly with benefits. NYBS is coughing up their routes before they have to put in money for benefits.
I'm not sure about the X23 and X24. They are SUPPOSED to go MTA by August 2004, but Atlantic Express is well-liked AND has significantly lower operating costs than MTA, which means that they may be able to keep those routes after that and possibly pick up more routes too because it's cheaper for the state to fund them than MTA. Let's not discuss the political hookups.
A fare hike should have been implemented in 2000. That fare hike would have been to $1.75 and would have started to deal with the large hole in the capital program. Instead, the State Comptroller's report was ignored. Now we have 9/11 costs PLUS increased money for benefits because of the money lost in stocks PLUS the capital program issues from before 9/11. Therefore, the fare is going straight to $2 local and subway/$4 express. The cuts will come when private buses begin to operate again on Staten Island. Then, schedules will be compressed and some of that equipment shifted to picking up the private lines. Those drivers would then be shifted to the private line routes, because the private lines do have people that are "retired" from TA and could not be hired back IIRC.
As Selkirk mentioned, we could see another small bump within 24 months, allowing TA to possibly exit the express bus business through contracting those services, since a $4.50 fare would make those services PROFITABLE.
Right now, we need to prepare for the loss of bus and subway service for a few days. TWU must get a good contract because their cooperation is needed for Regional Bus...remember, we're talking about integrating new drivers into an already MASSIVE operation. We're also talking about productivity gains that need to be made or else...
The sticking points on Regional bus are Civil Service status for the workers, NYCERS pension standards and seniority retention. The last could be worked thru but the TA is not moving on the first two.
Selkirk also predicts that TWU will get the high hard one, strike or no strike (hint: a strike will result in a "justified" punishment of CUTS in pay) because TWU didn't endorse the Paturkey, they endorsed the GREENS was it? There's ONE thing you can count on out of Paturkey, and that's OVERWHELMING revenge. Just ask the Chairman, Maureen O. Helmer of the Public Service Commission what happens when you don't dance just right. I used to work for her and she's republican through and through. Just wasn't ENOUGH of a republican to suit George Elmer, and didn't do EVERYTHING he wanted. She gone.
But TWU ain't gonna get a warm pail of spit out of this boy NOW ... I've warned of this before too. :(
If the union disrupts the NYC economy, they'll also disrupt the cash flow of the entire STATE. Remember, Toussaint already twisted Bloomberg's arm this summer. He's ready to go after the state now...and Bloomberg will let him. Somehow, I believe the union has to get a good contract because the city has VERY little dough for a serious contingency plan. If this summer's strike tells you anything, the city won't have much of a plan anyway.
One week of an MTA strike may cost certain programs in the state some major revenue. I think the union is probably stocking the war chest right now.
But wouldn't the stike be illegal?
Arti
Yeah...and?
I hope my throat is not cut here on SubTalk, but in the summer of 2001, when Academy pulled out, NYCDOT stopped and emptied buses operating on interstate routes without a valid reason. That's a violation of FEDERAL law that was carried out by the city and only ended when a small carrier referred the matter to his lawyer.
If the transit employees go on strike, it would be a violation of the law. The question is if civil disobeidience (sp?) is worth it in this case.
A strike is not a bad deal from the State's point of view, as long as the suburban services roll. Two days of cost reduction for each day of strike, and no refunds for city residents with monthly passes. Doesn't hurt those from outside the city at all.
The suburbanites and Manhattanites hold the key jobs, and they could get to work. The city residents who clean the offices could just be laid off for a couple of weeks -- with the city's unemployment rate at 7.9 percent and climbing vs. 4.4 percent in the rest of the state and falling. So the businesses could always hire someone else.
My understanding is that the law before the Taylor law said that all workers who striked would be fired. It was replaced by the Taylor law since firing all the transit workers, cops, etc. was not realistic. The question is, if the TWU strikes, would management retain the right to fire workers? Not all of them. Perhaps the 10 percent with the worst performance record. Of all the station agents. Or all the conductors. Or all the diesel mechanics (not many can fix electric trains, but lots of places will fix diesel buses). Get the picture.
The good news is, in the event of a strike I get laid off. No child care problems.
A strike is not a bad deal from the State's point of view, as long as the suburban services roll. Two days of cost reduction for each day of strike, and no refunds for city residents with monthly passes. Doesn't hurt those from outside the city at all.
The suburbanites and Manhattanites hold the key jobs, and they could get to work. The city residents who clean the offices could just be laid off for a couple of weeks -- with the city's unemployment rate at 7.9 percent and climbing vs. 4.4 percent in the rest of the state and falling. So the businesses could always hire someone else.
I'm sure that there are many people holding key jobs who live in the city outside Manhattan. A lengthy transit strike would be more than a minor inconvenience to city businesses even if the suburban services continue. What might well happen is that many CEO's will take a careful look at those glossy move-your-company-here brochures they get from places like Charlotte and Dallas.
They'll take a personal look...and invite their employees to join them. There goes the commercial office tax. This is why I believe that the threat of one is being taken so seriously.
Last time they fired a few probies afterwards to make a point.
I'm sure they are ... and that will play RIGHT into Paturkey's hands since the Taylor law will reduce TWU paychecks two days for every one day out. Can't ya just see that Paturkey is *ITCHING* for this to happen? That'll cut costs right there alone. PLUS, it'll be justification for mass firings, something ELSE the state is itching for. As a former UMD TWU 100 member myself, I am FULLY in support of TWU's membership getting a fair shake. I *really* am ... but I really don't think Touissant is picking up the cluephone here. After endorsing the Greens (was it? I know it was one of those loony parties) he has NOTHING to bargain with and Paturkey LOVES payback time. He LIVES to cut the wings off those who don't dance to HIS tune.
Look what he's doing to 1199's members now that the stats show that most of them voted for McCall even if the union endorsed Paturkey? Payback time. Even though the union endorsed Paturkey, they're still going to take it in the ear for not following through. Where does this put TWU? That's the problem, wait and see. If there's a strike, the state comes out ahead in cash and workforce reductions. :(
They'll save some cash...the question is, how much of that savings goes to pay for 500-700 buses, extra cops, ferries etc. in order to mitigate the loss of transit service for 44% of the state population at once? They would have to grab $3+ million per DAY (based on the last contingency plan) in order to break even. If Bloomberg pulls the bus strike stunt ("it's a matter between the MTA and the union"), the union gets an advantage.
Some people said that 1980 was not worth it. I'd like to get some feedback from those folks. It must have been worth it enough to make the threat again.
Yep, can't fault your logic there ... however, in politics, rocks float. New York CITY will get stuck with that expense, NOT the state. While I understand folks in the five boroughs actually BELIEVE that mayor Mike pulls the strings, the puppeteers are about 150 miles north of the Bronx/Yonkers line and since they're invisible to most people, they can go for things like this. The STATE collects Taylor law fines, it's a STATE law, not a CITY law, and yet it will be the CITY that gets stuck with the bills for bustitution or whatever else is done should there be a strike. THAT is why MTA is digging in. :(
The city has no dough...here's what the contingency plan will probably look like:
1) Commuter vans in the outer boroughs and livery cabs charging $1.50-$2.50 (!) per ride.
2) Additional NYCDOT buses as Manhattan shuttles along existing express bus corridors.
3) Extra non-peak locals on MTA Rail between GCT and Mount Vernon West and Yonkers as well as between Penn Station/Flatbush Avenue and Great Neck, Mineola, and Valley Stream.
4) NY Waterway shuttle buses might be allowed to pick up on street for $1,50.
5) HOV-3 below 96 Street
As for me, I'm creating bus schedules now so I can grab all the charter operators that I can find and cover my neighborhood in Brooklyn and parts of Staten Island. After all, it's impossible to strikebreak NYCT. Bloomberg will be thrilled that I won't charge him. As much as I believe that the MTA should give the union a good deal, people who are not complaining at work will be complaining on the street. I'm not interested in having to walk through RIOTS to get a gallon of milk. And if anyone has ANYTHING to say about it, I'll let the delayed passengers devour them.
I'm not sure about mass firings. They MIGHT try something real slick, like announcing the takeover of NYBS routes and putting those B/Os AHEAD of the striking workers in seniority. Or have the union choose between fines and higher pension payments...but mass firings will lead to more trouble than it is worth. An action like that will destroy NYC...which means that the next cow to be milked would be Nassau, Suffolk, and Westchester. I don't think that this will be allowed to happen.
Interesting plans ... for what it's worth though, the powers that be up here are only interested in zero cost increase and a 5% reduction in the workforce for THIS year in ALL state agencies (including MTA). Where this comes from isn't as important to Division of the Budget as that it happens. In previous "crunch years" it has meant that probationary and provisional employees are first out the door, the "early retirement" incentives carry costs and Civil Service does allow provisionals, probationaries, and "temporaries" to get an instant heave-ho at no penalty to the state.
I genuinely believe that unless TWU is *insane* they won't strike. I also don't believe that TWU will accept a 5% pay cut or making up that 5% pay cut by eating additional costs to the workforce for health or other benefit givebacks, so it should be quite interesting to see where this goes. But I just can't see the strike happening. It's truly a shame that TWU didn't come to a deal BEFORE the elections though, it's my understanding that a deal WAS offered and turned down.
>>> but mass firings will lead to more trouble than it is worth. <<<
That's just what one of my friends (a former air traffic controler) told me just before he changed careers.
Tom
Look what he's doing to 1199's members now that the stats show that most of them voted for McCall even if the union endorsed Paturkey? Payback time. Even though the union endorsed Paturkey, they're still going to take it in the ear for not following through. Where does this put TWU? That's the problem, wait and see. If there's a strike, the state comes out ahead in cash and workforce reductions. :(
To be blunt, that's probably what this state urgently needs.
As for the bad treatment of 1199's membership, it couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.
I think the Queens strike put LOcal 100 on Mikes radar. He is 100% going after the dues checkoff and jailing leadership.
BTW
MTA talks are going NOWHERE! This is not even 'secret' union information anymore.
Very few sessions are scheduled and they are all drawn out. The MTA is presenting work rule changes and then not expaining what is entailed when the TWU asks what exactly is involved (the exception being TW1 and TW2).
>>> Very few sessions are scheduled and they are all drawn out. The MTA is presenting work rule changes and then not expaining what is entailed when the TWU asks what exactly is involved <<<
This should not be unexpected. The MTA would like to humble the new TWU leadership by forcing them to either call a strike, and get the public to blame the union for the fare increase when the strike is settled, or get them to accept and recommend to the membership a poor contract to stir up unrest in the rank and file of the union.
Tom
Personally I think they want to provoke a strike so that Triborough goes out the window and they can get everything.
At this point I think it is the SA they would settle for screwing plus a few RTO work rules. If there is a strike all departments will bleed ALOT.
I was told at last strike they knew they could not fire all the probies so they just fired a few.
Interesting thoughs. I've been reading around the forums at the Strappies website and many of them demand where a surplus of money the MTA had went before this current budget crisis. If that info doesn't come in, they aren't willing to fork over the $2.
Someone even mentioned an audit. I just couldn't help but laugh at that one. That is a practical impossibility.
To all,
Some time ago, I posted that I was suspending all updates to my website, www.orenstransitpage.com, until further notice due to the fact I was going to transfer to a new server. That is almost complete. I am expecting to establish access to the new server this weekend. In addition, all the pictures I took after my August visit to New York City (London, New England, Washington, DC area) will be on the site once the new server is accessible. A sampling is below:
The site will be closed entirely as the final changes are made to the site for the transfer. I will post here when the site reopens. As of now, the site is still available on the old server.
I apologize for the long wait for the pages to reopen but trust me, what is coming is worth the wait!
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
Let me be the first to congratulate and compliment you on your website. I was particularl thrilled by the photos of Chicago Aurora & Elgin car 434 at Seashore. To paraphrase Louella Parsons, "it has never looked lovelier." Praise also is due to the people at Seashore for their diligence in restoring this prime example of the car builder's art.
what is the status of railfans,such as myself videotaping trains,in the wake of the Al Queda threat to cause destruction at our nations commuter railroads?I have been videotaping on the LIRR for many years and most recently at Mamaroneck,but have backed off as of the past couple of weeks.grade crossings such as the 3 at New Hyde Park and Mineola in Nassau county are among my favorite locations to videotape,as well as on the trains themselves.I would like to get more videotape from the M-1s and M-3s before the M-7s inundate the LIRR.I dont want to bring any unwanted attention to my self.
Just stay on public property (streets, not rail yards) and if anyone tells you to stop, just say sorry, I didn't know it was forbidden (which is true, because it isn't) and move on. Don't videotape where there is an explicit sign, such as at NYC bridges.
No one will give you a hard time; the worst is they'll tell you to stop.
Asif it REALLY were THAT easy...
Heh... try telling this to our fellow Salaam.
"try telling this to our fellow Salaam"
Our friend Salaam trespassed on NYCT property.
Yesh.. and the "just say sorry" approach
didn't work for him... :(
"Yesh.. and the "just say sorry" approach didn't work for him...
Because he was in fact breaking the law. No one has reported ANY trouble stronger than being told to stop (which isn't right but isn't being detained or arrested either) as long as they weren't trespassing.
you said ......
"Our friend Salaam trespassed on NYCT property. "
........ I DID NOT !!
BULL
.... you do the stock market ?? ......a ""BULL"" week ??.....hows things at the nysc these dayz .............lol !
Hardly BEARable, brah...
i was just looking at subtalk...........not to post but look ...........
..cuz' i wanted 2 see whats goin' on & then ..........................................
........& here is an unprovoked ATTACK .............................................!
no reason 4 it at all ..........
does entering the cab ring any bells?...
Bells are the only thing he hears.
Peace,
ANDEE
...you & me in a chatroom ................& .off of this board please !
you would not last 2 seconds !!
LOL hehehe
same 2 U
Ding-A-Ling
....crybaby ...........waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.........
It takes one to know one....neener, neener.
Peace,
ANDEE
......best describes U ??................!
Bells are the only thing he hears. After all he is a ding-a-ling.
Peace,
ANDEE
........this message board should not be used to attack people .......!!
& that is the point .............................dig ?.........!
that is the only BELL that should ring !
Ding A Ling
this was not an attack... you broke the law... that is a fact... maybe the cops overreacted, but whatever happened, you should not have been in the cab...
it is & was an attack against me ..........unwarranted and unprovoked !!.................................ok??
........admit it ......an attack and a insult ..........not allowed on this board .......
also mr goodoe 2 shoes did you ever J walk or do something against some law of any kind anywhere
dont lie .............!!
like run a red light ??..... cheat on a school test ?? Its' always someone who throws stones at someone ELSE
this attack by this poster BEFORE thgis one was unwarranted, unecessary and wrong ...
besides the need of some sick minds to take a personal sissy little SWIPE at me whats da' point??
eh ?
it was this post .....totally wrong .WAY OUT OF LINE .....no need for it at all .....
what was i supposed 2 do eat this B.S. and enjoy it ??
i dont do that to anyone on this board so why cant some of you do the same ?
answer that ............if you can !!
but cant you see?.... all of the mamas little boyz in thier diapers chomping at
thier baby bottles to take a shot at me before I even posted anything
& for quite some time now !!!
absolutely no reason to launch some B.S. about me at all ..........period !!
grow up subwaysurf & co. !!
please act like a mature ADULT for a change !!
hell i have seen children more mature that SOME of you who hide behind
your computer and post on this rail transit FORUM .......
i shot a lot of lirr video last time i was there babylon and the other longest line
Story in today's TimesUnion:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=75317&category=STATE&newsdate=11/22/2002
No registration required
Surprise!
I can only assume that this is the first shot in the PR campaign that’s going to tell the morons citizens of New York, that big cuts/tax increases/some combination are on the way, but we “only just found out about the problem” so “we weren’t lying to you before the election.”
Heh. Wasn't much of a surprise to me, having WORKED for the turkey. But NYC still doesn't seem to be getting enough of the picture of what's to come ... NYC's budget comes in later than it does upstate, the reality's already out in leaps and bounds up here. Typical of the "pain" around here is Glenville, NY ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=74879&category=REGION&newsdate=11/21/2002
No subscription required ...
The Democratic Cuomo/Koch-Dinkins policy: cut taxes, increase spending and borrow in good times; raise taxes, cut services, and cut capital spending in a recession.
The Republican Pataki/Giuliani-Bloomberg policy: cut taxes, increase spending and borrow in good times; raise taxes, cut services, and cut capital spending in a recession.
Who is the winner here? The people dying off and moving away. I didn't vote for any incumbents. Did you?
Nope ... politicians, like diapers, need frequent changing. My idea of term limits? ONE. :)
Hey Kev, I used to work up around your way when I was co-oping
in college (Drexel University). I'm sure glad I didn't land a position up that way, sounds like the taxes are getting to be murder(sheesh). For 2 years I worked in Green Island, across the river from Troy. Actually it was in 3 month jaunts, 1 winter, 1 summer, 1 winter and 1 summer.
Chuck Greene
They have gotten to be QUITE impressive lately. Now NYC and the surrounding area is about to pay the piper since the budget cycles down there have been "adjusted" to clear election day. With what the state alone needs to get through the next 12 months, I really can't believe that the fare hike will only go to $2.00. I've heard $2.25 or $2.50 as "stasis" given projections. Unless suddenly we go back to the 1997 economy in the next 12 months which just ain't gonna happen.
And moving across the nearest state border ain't gonna work either since NJ, CT, PA and MA are facing similar numbers. "It's STILL the economy, stupid" and we ain't got one. :(
Yeah, I think we're coming close to the same thing down here around Philly, Pa. I live in Exton, 30 miles west of center city, but it will hit here eventually.
Chuck Greene
It IS a national problem, but "we" voted against the concept that you need an economy in lieu of taxes to pay the bills and keep the fares where they were. While I understand the outrage over a 20% hike in NYC, everywhere across the board, we're about 50% in the hole. Only question is do we pay NOW, or do we pay far more later? Now that election's done for two years though, maybe we'll finally get some truth even if it ain't pretty. SOMEBODY'S gotta pay, and it won't be Worldcom.
There will be no hike past $2 this time around. Cuts are debatable.
That's pretty much what I'm expecting too since politicians generally are weasels. But I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised if they're back at the well next summer. :(
Seems that 5405 is "married" to 5318, 5317, and 5316. I know that there are a bunch of mismatched pairs, but are there any other mismatched quads of R-44, R-46, or R-68s?
I believe that there is a mismated set of R-46s.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes: the mismated pairs of R46 are 6202-6203-5615-5614 and 5616-5617-6205-6204.
R44 Odd Couples are as follows:
5316-5317-5405-5318 (already mentioned)
5246-5247-5337-5336
5478-5479-5403-5404
5302-5303-5263-5262
5260-5261-5277-5276
wayne
Thank's a lot for the information, Wayne.
#3 West End Jeff
R44 Mismatches that I know of
5276-5277-5263-5262
5404-5403-5479-5478
5246-5247-5337-5336
Some R46 quads are all 'A' cars[A-A-A-A] and there's a lone A-B-A-A configuration 6206-6207-62xx-62xx
5405 replaced 5319, which was burned so bad that it was deactivated from revenue service, quite a few R44's have been scrapped, even in the pre-GOH days and the funny thing is that this is a smaller car order than the R46 yet it lost about 15 cars while the 46's ONLY LOST 2. BTW, there are no known mismatches of R68's/R68A's.
The fire that destroyed 5319 was not mechanical. A homeless fellow, sleeping in a corner, was set on fire at Far Rock terminal.
First, I'd like to apologize to the British Subtalkers...
My plan was to visit both London and Paris but It ended up Paris only.
But I happened to arrive there on the day of the reopening of the
"Montparnasse fast travolator". The one that was closed after many people couldn't take the speed change point (from 3kph to 9kph) and almost hurt themselves. It is on the long interchange(transfer) between the line 4 and 12 Montparnasse station and the one for line 6 and 13.
There were security guards to show you what to do to remain safe, and a recorded voice annoucing "Ne levez pas les pieds(Do not lift your feet)" REPEATEDLY!! A la "Mind the gap".
I rode on it again today, the fast learning Parisians already knew it was safe to ignore the rules and walk, once you were on the fixed speed 9kph zone, and you follow the rules again before the thing slows down.
I'll be back in NYC by Monday, but I don't think the RATP will have any "Ne levez pas les pieds" T-shirts ready by then.
Hi,
Do you know when they will be putting new cars on the #7,like they have on the #6 line.I heard at the beginning ofthe yr.,maybe earlier,that there would be new cars in the spring'02.But all we got were the 2nd hand cars from the #6 line.Thank you for your time!
Sincerely,Todd M.(SimplyAmazin)
Hi,
Do you know when they will be putting new cars on the #7,like they have on the #6 line.I heard at the beginning of the yr., maybe earlier,that there would be new cars in the spring'02.But all we got were the 2nd hand cars from the #6 line.I look foward to your reply.Thank you!
Sincerely,Todd M.(SimplyAmazin)
I wouldn't count on new equipment for the #7 line until the R62A retires, should be sometime between 2020 and 2025.
wayne
the second hand R62As, from the 1,3,and 6 are your new cars. They are quite nice IMO
It's said that they won't be doing GOH's anymore because ot the new SMS program, but still, it would be nice to see the R62-68, and maybe even the 44-46 again, rebuilt mid-life, if nothing else but cosmetically to make them more modern looking. It should be easy.
Remove unused cabs. This may be a problem in the 68's (and maybe also 62's?) as the handbrake is next to the operator's seat, and not against the car shell, so it would be right on the mddle of the new passenger area if it can't be moved. Perhaps it can be covered over with a vapor key compartment, or somehow reconfigured as not to stick out so much.
Removing the cab would expose the windshield. This is good since new trains feature windows to view into the next car. (most controls are removed, and the light, HVAC, buzzer, etc. buttons can be covered). So then remove the panel on the left side as well, plus the sign box (if not already removed), and put up a glass door (like on the 142/143), to protect from the opening door. On the 44/46, there is already no cab, so you would just have to replace the faux pas wood panels with glass panels, and replace the fiberglass blind end with one with windows. Circuit breakers are below the end car windows, and perhaps on the 62/68, they can be moved there as well.
I liked the idea of the stainless steel panels, but since they have abandoned these on new trains, and they constantly get scratched up, you could put in all new walls. The walls are all in sections that look easily removable, and you could replace the whole thing with what the new cars have. This plus new style lighting would make the cars look brighter and less dingy.
Plus also update to digital signs, automated announcements, etc.
Then, what are now the "old" cars will be just as good as the new.
>>> but still, it would be nice to see the R62-68, and maybe even the 44-46 again, rebuilt mid-life, if nothing else but cosmetically to make them more modern looking. It should be easy. <<<
I guess you haven't read all the other posts about how tight money is. Cosmetic rebuilding is a no-no.
Tom
Not necessarily right now. Maybe in several years whenever the money is not so tight.
I knew they should have kept that American Express money tree from the World's Fair....
The R142s and R142As cannot immediately run on the 7. I believe there are problems that need to be addressed. For one thing, the Corona Yard is not equipped to maintain them---yet. It will have to be brought up to speed sooner or later, and I believe there are plans to do so within the next few years. Until then, the R62A's are a much welcome relief to the sweaty, swaying, jerky, noisy, nausea-inducing Rustbirds.
:-) Andrew
This is the first time the 7 line had hand me downs, the R-62A's arent bad cars.
No new stuff until the R62A's are scrapped in 2020 or around that time.
This is the first time the 7 Line got second-hand cars.
Usually the 7 Line got the brand new stuff.....in 1938, they got the 50 World's Fair Lo-V's. The rest of the IRT got nothing.
In 1948-50, they got the R-12/14/15's. The rest of the IRT got the 50 1938 WF hand-me-downs.
In 1955, the first bunch of R17's went to the 7 Line.
In 1963, only 15 years after the first R12's, the 7 Line got the R33/36WF cars and the rest of the IRT got the hand-me-down R12/14/15's from the 7 Line.
This is the first time the 7 Line got second-hand cars. Usually the 7 Line got the brand new stuff
True. Although the R62's didn't go to the 7 when they first came either, so this is the second time the 7 isn't getting the newest trains in recent past.
This time around the Eastern Division got the new stuff also. The last time was the R16's I believe. The JML lines always seem to get the hand-me-downs.
The Eastern division got a few brand new R42's: 4922 (approx.#) to 4949.
More than that, Bill - they got the 4800 series cars that the "QJ" ran. I think the first number in the series was #4856.
The "KK", "LL" and "M" had the pool from #4896-4921.
#4922 to 4949 originally showed up at Jamaica. Later (1971) they migrated "east".
"notes from The Grey Book" ca. 1969, 1970 and 1971"
wayne
That's right, my bad. 4922 to 4949 were originally Queens IND cars. When the R44's were placed into service, these cars were transfered to the "east".
The R-17s were initially assigned to the 6 in 1955. A group of them went over to the 7 in the early 60s to help out until the R-36s arrived.
The IRT was in dire straits by the mid 1930s. That's probably why they could spring for only 50 cars for the World's Fair.
The first postwar IRT cars were assigned to the 7 because their doors would not line up with the gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry.
My father worked in a firehouse in Flushing in the mid-1950's, and I definitely remember some R17's (6517 was one of them) working the Flushing Line then, as they were shiny maroon while everything else on the line was filthy steel-dust brown. Amazing that the two tunnel sections on a line that is outdoors for the majority of its length would cause so much dirt!
Yeah, the Steinway Tunnels are so dirty. I think it somewhat has to do with the way the tunnel is structurally.
Yep. I remember in early 1964, the tunnels were white-washed to make them "presentable" for all the riders going to the World's Fair. That white coating lasted about a month at the most, and it was back to the sooty grey again.
I think what it is that the tunnels are built using these very heavy cast-iron (correct me on the material) tubes. The problem is, these tubes don't allow for much room movement and for any work to be done on them, massive GO's have to be executed, hence all of those weekend GO's the 7 had these past months. With this reasoning in mind, I believe most of the subway tunnels are made of concrete/steel tubing. Am I right?
Today, I decided to get a little bold so I decide that I am going to ride the entire A line from Far Rockaway to 207 St[I'll post the whole bus portion in Bustalk]. So I leave my house around 4:00-4:15pm and I start by taking the B8 to Newkirk Av train station then I hop on the (Q) for 2 stops to Av J, then I wait for a B6 or B11, the 6 shows up so I take it to Nostrand Av where I have to wait 10 minutes for the Q35, where I will head towards the Rockaways. So I take it to B149, hop on the Q22 all the way to the last stop and so far this portion takes about 2 hours. Now for the A train story..
So I'm at Mott Av and as I go up the syairs, a R38 arrives; 3975 as the lead car so I get on it & we are there for about 10 minutes before we leave at 6:30pm. I will post time checks as well. So I grab the railfan window and I will hold on to it the entire trip, unobstructed but I could not see the speedometer so I'm guessing the speed the train went [which I should be fairly close]. Smooth sailing but at Howard Beach, there are temporary wooden platforms and A's were running on the middle track. I had NO idea this station was getting a makeover. Anyway, we go smoothly and we get slowed by the timer btw bypassing Rockaway & Ralph Av. It was 7:18 when I reach Jay St, my first time check so I'm doing good in time. So we through Cranberry St and we do no more than 27-30mph through the whole tunnel and from B'way Nassau the train car gets more filled as we go on. So I make my next time check at 42 St, so I decide to time the CPW express run to see what times I get.
So were bypassing 50 St type slowly, man if there was no speed timer btw 42 and 59, that would have been a real fun section. So when we leave 59 St, I time the run to see how long it takes from 59 to 125 St and the run took a couple of minutes, which is not too bad with the timers and all after 86 St plus there was no D to possibly alter the times. So we continue and my next time check at 145 St, it is 7:48, which is just about on target so we proceed until Dyckman, where we get held at due to a red signal and I finally arrive at 207 St at 8:03pm, man my legs were aching standing up for 93 minutes. So there's a R44 across the platform but its not leaving right away so I head back on the same R38 but different car, 4119. We leave 5 minutes later and the ride back was faster than when I came.
So not to be biased, again I will time how long the CPW express takes from 125 to 59 St and it is a amazing run, once again no D to obstruct us [I'll post times & some other stuff in another post] and it definitely hit 40mph. So we go fast until I arrive at 42 St at 8:31pm, where I will transfer to the Q to go home. If you want to know how long it took me to walk to the B'way platform it took me about 4 1/2 minutes. Anyway, I wait until a R68A (Q) arrives and it does good speed via B'way and btw 7 Av & Prospect Park and its smooth until we go slow btw Church Av & Newkirk Av b/c of leaves on the tracks. So I get off at Newkirk Av & I take the B8 home.
RTS 8529 B8
R68 2779 (Q)
RTS 9109 B6 LTD
GBL RTS 611 Q35
GBL RTS 1143 Q22
R38 3975 (A)
R38 4119 [Return](A)
R68A 5062 (Q)
NF 871 B8
Ok, here's the times I recorded on the CPW express runs, how long it took to get there and some observations.
Towards 207 St, my time checks:
Leave Far Rockaway 6:30pm
Jay St 7:18
42 St 7:35
59 St 7:38
125 St 7:45
145 St 7:48
Arrive 207 St 8:03pm This trip on the A took 93 minutes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Towards 42 St, since I got off here for the Q:
Leave 207 St 8:08pm
145 St 8:19
125 St 8:23
59 St 8:29
42 St 8:31 Took 23 minutes from 207 to 42 St, 5 minutes faster than going uptown
CPW runs
Uptown: 6 min 30 sec. B/c of the scattered slow speed timers btw 86 St and 125 St
Downtown: 5 min 49 sec. Even I was shocked and I am not fabricating this
Some observations:
1) Saw 2 10 car trains of R32's on the A
2) Saw GE's 3934-3935 coupled to MK R32's
3) Saw 2 R38's coulped to R32's on the C
4004-4005-3796-3797-3xxx-3xxx-3868-3869
4) Only bypassed ONE C in the entire time the A runs with the C
5) Renovation of Howard Beach, temporary wooden terminals both directions. Part of normal local track closed until just before N Conduit Av, where it switches from the exp track to the local
Speed timers that I saw 207 St bound
------------------------------------
Scattered btw B67 St and Rockaway Blvd
Btw bypassing Liberty Av & B'way
Btw B'way and Utica Av
Btw bypassing Clinton Washington Av & Hoyt-Schermerhorn
In the Cranberry St tunnel
Btw 14 & 34 St
Btw 42 & 59 St
Scattered btw 86 St and 145 St
Btw 168 and 175 St
Scattered btw 181 and Dyckman St
This was a real fun trip to me and I may do it again one day.
No, you are not fabricating this. They really messed up the line with all of these timers and field shuntings.
I don't know when was the first time you rode the "A", but anyway, the best and fastest rides were when the R10s, and then the r40s (in my PERSONAL experience the r40s were the best equipment on the "A" to date).
If you had experienced this yesterday, you probably would have never gotten off of that train.
Enjoy.
I remember the Slants on the "A" from the late 70's and into the 80's; they moved as well as the R10s or better. The "A" has been denatured with the endless grade timers; even our beloved R38s have been hobbled by them.
A real treat is to find a Phase I R32 on the "A". We had one back on November 15 - lead motor was #3477; rode it from 207 to Lefferts in an hour and 12 minutes.
wayne
The A is no longer the quickest way to get to Harlem, that's for sure. It's not the same without the R-10s.
... or those pesky timers. R-10's would move no faster than Hippos. :)
There was only one place where the R-10s crawled: n/b while skipping 23rd St. Even the R-1/9s moved more quickly, if you consifer F# below middle C quick. At least the I-beams moved by fast enough so you couldn't spot each one on either side of you. A trains today go much quicker through there - not breakneck speed, but at 20-25 mph. With the R-10s, you could easily see each and every I-beam at that station. Watching those I-beams felt like seeing a ref stepping off a 15-yard penalty at a football game.
Wow!! 5:49 for a s/b CPW run? That's quick! I had a 6:28 s/b run on a train of R-38s last month. IMHO the trick is to have a clear track all the way into 59th St.
Howard Beach is no doubt getting a makeover to accommodate the AirTrain station above it.
BTW...loved your account of the trip.
On Friday, I rode the entire A line from Far Rockaway to 207 St. It was pretty interesting and I took notes while I was on it like timing the CPW run & some observations I recorded so read it & I would like your opinions on my story [man all those timers really added some time on the A express!]. Thanx.
Thomas Wolfe was so right. Not only have the real subway trains disappeared from New York, but a PBS show I just watched informed me that I could no longer meet someone under the clock at the Biltmore.
I guess only the older Sub Talker's remember when "I'll meet you under the clock at the Biltmore" was standard throughout the Ivy League and Seven Sisters, (and New England prep schools as noted so well by J.D. Salinger), particularly at Thanksgiving time.
The Biltmore Hotel was located just North of Grand Central Station, handy for anyone arriving by train from New England. Students from various schools would make dates with students from other schools and arrange to meet under the clock at the Biltmore at a given time. In the repressed pre sexual revolution days of the ‘50s, four or five men from the same school would rent a room in the hotel, as would four or five women from another school. Everyone would meet their dates under the clock.
At Thanksgiving, 1955, I made the trip from Ohio to meet a girl I knew who was attending Colby College in New Hampshire. I was not certain of the location of the Biltmore before she told me to meet her under the clock. But I found it and was able to pick her out of the crowd dressed in the New England college uniform of a long overcoat, boots and a six foot Isadora Duncan memorial scarf. This was her first trip to New York, so I had a great time showing her around, all by subway, except for our 5¢ moonlight cruise to an off shore island.
The PBS program said the Biltmore is only a memory now, having been rebuilt into an office building, but in the lobby, they still have a clock which had been in the hotel lobby, not the big one that everyone met under, but a smaller one that had been behind the registration desk. Does anyone know, where do the students meet now?
Tom
Not only have the real subway trains disappeared from New York...
I guess those must all be imaginary trains that I ride everytime I visit NYC.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Probably the big clock INSIDE Grand Central Station itself I'd guess. But then again, in this era of emailings and websites, perhaps they meet in cyberspace....;)
At Thanksgiving, 1955, I made the trip from Ohio to meet a girl I knew who was attending Colby College in New Hampshire. I was not certain of the location of the Biltmore before she told me to meet her under the clock. But I found it and was able to pick her out of the crowd dressed in the New England college uniform of a long overcoat, boots and a six foot Isadora Duncan memorial scarf.
I hope you didn't go anywhere in a convertible sports car (snap!)
>>> I hope you didn't go anywhere in a convertible sports car <<<
That sucker was hazardous when going between cars on the LoVs and R-12s, which was as close to a sports car as we got.
Tom
As long as you have an imagination and a good memory it is always possible to go home again. However, that is as far as it goes. Reality tells us to cherish and hang on to those memories because things are never the same as they were some time before. I see that when I visit my old neighborhoods where I lived and when I ride the subway trains. Things are different for all of us and I suppose we have to call that progress, even though at times it is a real pisser.
The students meet at the airport now.
>>>...six foot Isadora Duncan memorial scarf<<<
What's that?
Peace,
ANDEE
...six foot Isadora Duncan memorial scarf
What's that?
Isadora Duncan was a famous dancer from the 1920's or thereabouts, in fact often considered the developer of modern dance. She liked wearing long scarves wrapped around her neck. One day, at the height of her fame, she went for a ride in a friend's covertible sports car. One end of the scarf became entangled in a rear wheel, and when the car started up, the scarf tightened and snapped her neck.
>>> She liked wearing long scarves wrapped around her neck <<<
I took a little license since Ms. Duncan favored light silk scarves that would blow in the wind, while what my friend and her contemporaries wore was a knitted woolen scarf, six feet long with wide stripes in school colors, that would be worn with one (shorter) end hanging down in front, one wrap around the neck and the other end hanging down in back. In really cold weather, it could be wrapped around the face several times.
I have been in warm weather too long to know if the scarf is still in fashion, and although I am not sure since I have not seen the 1970 movie "Love Story" since it came out, I would bet that if there is an outdoor winter scene, Ali Mac Graw was wearing one of those scarves.
Tom
the railfan window is a real gonner ..................forever !!
Not forever, when the day ZPTO comes, you'll have quite a large railfan window. Of course for NYC, all of us will be dead by then.
except for our 5¢ moonlight cruise to an off shore island.
That, my friend, is now free :)
--Mark
Even though the real subway trains have disappeared from New York, they can be found about 75 miles away in Branford. (I would have said East Haven but the subway cars never go to Sprague Station in East Haven. They are just found in Branford and Short Beach!)
Nah, we don't have any "real trains." We have single cars, and our mixed consists are interdivisional (1227/G, Hi-V/R-9/Lo-V). We have to get a couple more BRT gate cars in shape before we have "real trains."
At least we can meet under the clock at Sprague :). Too bad the Yale Bowl cars don't go there anymore.
>>> Even though the real subway trains have disappeared from New York, they can be found about 75 miles away in Branford. <<<
Alas, subway cars can be found there, but the experience of riding the mainlines in a train of Lo-Vs with open windows and end doors and lights going off and on down the length of the train while looking at the latest Miss Subways and Miss Rheingold, or seeing which brand of cigarettes your favorite baseball player said was best for you, or peering into the almost impenetrable darkness through the railfan window is gone forever.
Tom
Does anyone know, where do the students meet now?
When I was in college in the early '90s, I was dating a girl who lived in Washington Heights. On breaks, I would take Amtrak's (then) Harrisburg Express to Penn Station. Before I knew anything about the NYC Subway, and that the A train was a clean, straight shot to 168th Street, we used to meet Under the Departure Board at Penn.
Not the same, and not as glamorous, but at least it wasn't an airport. One of the few fond memories from that relationship, but I digress...
Later on, when meeting my (later to be) wife (different girl), I'd pick her up at LaGuardia.
We are having our open house again! 3 weekends only!
Fridays 11/29, 12/6 8PM-10PM
Saturdays TODAY 11/23, 11/30, 12/7 2PM-5:30PM
Sundays 11/24, 12/1, 12/8 2PM-5:30PM
Come on down and see the HUGE O SCALE RAILROAD, ELEVATED AND TROLLEY LAYOUT!
Bay Ridge Model Railroad Clud
28 Marine Avenue (IN BASEMENT)
Brooklyn, NY
BY SUBWAY
R train to Bay Ridge/95th Street. Use 93rd Street exit. Walk 3 blocks down 93rd Street to Marine Avenue.
Adults: $ 3.00
Children: $ 1.00
Information about the club:
The Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club, inc. organized in 1946 is the merger of two former Model Railroad Clubs, The Brooklyn Model Railroad founded in 1932 and the Shore Haven Central founded in 1936. The Present Club was formed in 1947 and incorporated in 1955 as a non-profit organization to construct, maintain, operate and display the Central Connecting Railroad also the Central City Traction Company and to provide recreation for the members and guests in the Hobby of Model Railroading and Trolley. The club quarters of the organization are at 28 Marine Ave., Brooklyn, New York 11209 and occupies a space 30 feet x 60 feet.
The Railroad is a true scale model built to the scale of 1/4 inch equals one foot which is also known as Scale "O" Gauge and is 1/48th the size of the prototype. The layout is a permanent installation on which work was started in 1946.
The supporting structure was designed by one of the members and is an innovation in itself, it is made of one inch angle iron supported by 1/2 inch conduit legs which are mounted on specially made anchorages. A 5/8 inch thick plywood top is then attached to the iron framework resulting in a very durable and strong benchwork.
The trackwork is built by using 3/8 Upson Board beveled and attached to the plywood top. Liquid glue then spread on the track board, ties laid in place and ballast is spread and tamped down. All trackage used is .158 brass rail, and the third rail is code 100 HO rail mounted on specially made brass third rail chairs. All track is hand spiked,using four spies to each tie. All switches are custom built and there are approximately 124 of them.
The electrical control system was designed by a member and installed by the members of the club. The complete main-line is controlled automatically. This system is known as ATC (Automatic Train Contro). 12 Volts DC is used to propel the locomotives; 24 Volts on the signal rail to actuate the relays controlling the automatic signal system; 12 Volts to operate the switch motors and 3 Volts for LEDS (Light Emitting Diodes) in the signal housing on the signal bridges. The trains control the signals and these in turn control the following train by adjusting the voltage on the third rail. Approximately 500 relays are used under the layout to control the trains in the above manner. It is the only ATC system of this type in existence on any model railroad. Tower men are placed at junction points on the railroad. These men can control the trains from their respective locations when necessary and perform duties such as switching, yard entry or yard exit from the main line. The freight and passenger terminals are under manual control.
The railroad has a dispatcher who can control a Train anywhere on the main-line by cutting out the ATC section. He can stop, start or back up a train manually from the Dispatcher's Cab. The Dispatcher's Cab is also equipped with an occupancy chart or Indication Board which indicates by illuminated lights the position of all trains on the layout.
The locomotives are built or have been rebuilt from kits or raw materials. They are powered by Permanent Magnet Motors and may take as long as a year to build. There are locomotives of Steam, Diesel and Electric type, and they run in size from small switching engines to to the large Articulateds. The cars also are built from kits or raw materials and there are some 250 of them running on the Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club layout. All rolling stock is owned by the members and is built and maintained by them.
The Narrow Gauge Division is also built to 1/48th the size of the prototype, but the track gauge is 3 foot between the rails instead of the 4 foot 8 1/2 inches as is the rest of the railroad. It also has its own 12 volt power supply and operating personnel.
The layout, the track, structure, scenery, bridges, and buildings are owned by the club itself, and all have been custom built by club members.
The Central City Traction Co. is a separate operating unit. It has its own right of way, and power supply which is also 12 Volt DC and is built to the scale 1/4 inch equals one foot, the same scale as the Railroad. The trolleys are built by the members and maintained by them. The Traction Co. has its own operating personnel.
Membership in the organization is open to any one over 18 years of age who is truly interested in Model Railroading or Trolley. Persons wishing to join the Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club, may do so by contacting any of the members who will be pleased to discuss details of membership with them. No special skills are required or needed.
Nice write-up Mark.
WOW! Amazing to hear they are still around, I visited the Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club FORTY years ago! It was an impressive layout then.
Been there, done that ... and recommend it too !
Realy neat to see a steam engine powered by third rail < g >
Yeah, I was there yesterday to check up on Mark and Dave Barraza's T/O skills on an O gauge railway.
Dave had one derailment (could've been a bad switch mechanism), and Mark was hot-dogging with the Brooklyn PCC on the 1:48 scale McDonald Avenue Line. :)
This has been discussed before, but the benefits have never been added up in one place. The idea:
- Switch all IND local services south of W 4th: all Cs and Es go to Houston St., all Fs and Vs stay on 6th Ave.
- Es go to the Culver Line.
- Fs go to WTC.
- Cs go to Metropolitan Ave. via the Chrystie Connector (this is one option; Cs could also terminate at 2nd Ave. or Church Ave.).
- The M is replaced by the C from Essex St. north. The J or Z can take its place in South Brooklyn as needed.
- 7 Vs go to Euclid Ave, with the other 3 tph taking the place of the Rockaway Park rush hour A trains.
The major benefit:
- 6th Ave riders get a direct ride to downtown. Right now this is the only main Manhattan north-south line that doesn’t provide service between midtown and downtown.
Additional benefits (by line, A-Z and 2-6):
- A trains are better balanced: right now there are more Fulton As than CPW As, with the result that Rock Park As go into a limbo north of 59th. Fulton Line passengers now get direct service to both 6th and 8th Aves.
- Manhattan Bridge north side (post-2004 B and D or equivalent) passengers will have a cross platform connection to 8th Ave trains at Bway Lafayette, avoiding the narrow and unreliable escalators at W 4th.
- Former C passengers in Brooklyn now have direct service to both 6th and 8th Aves, and get 10 car trains instead of 8.
- E train service from Penn to E 53rd is more reliable because it has a shorter and less crowded journey from the CI yard to Penn than from the Jamaica Yard to Parsons Archer to WTC to Penn.
- G train riders in Brooklyn have a cross-platform connection to 6th Ave. trains at Hoyt-Schermerhorn instead of having to do a cross-under at Smith-9th or switching twice. Their access to 8th Ave. remains good.
- J/Z passengers now have a cross-platform connection to midtown at Marcy.
- L passengers have a new easier connection to lower Manhattan (the 6th Ave transfer is much easier than the 8th Ave).
- Former M passengers from Metropolitan now have the C direct to midtown.
- R passengers now have a transfer to the 8th Ave line in Brooklyn and not just at Times Square. Their access to 6th Ave remains good. (This becomes irrelevant if the Lawrence/Jay St connector is done).
- The V goes somewhere useful instead of just ending nowhere at 2nd Ave.
- 2/3 passengers have a direct connection to both the 6th and 8th Ave lines at Park Place/Chambers St.
- 4/5 passengers have a direct connection to both the 6th and 8th Ave lines at Fulton St/Bway Nassau.
- 6 passengers have a direct connection to both 6th and 8th Ave trains at Bway Lafayette (post 2004; improves when the 6 northbound to IND connector is done).
I don’t see any changes for Manhattan Bridge south side, 1/9, or 7 passengers. On the negative side, Culver Line passengers will lose their one-seat ride to 6th Ave. and get one to 8th Ave. instead. But you can’t please everyone.
It looks like a reasonable plan.
I think the benefit to the L riders is an illusion. I would think that most downtown riders would change at Union Sq for a downtown 4/5.
One added negative for middays. Local riders on the 8th Ave line would have to take 2 trains to get the downtown area, just like 6th Ave riders have to today.
"I think the benefit to the L riders is an illusion. I would think that most downtown riders would change at Union Sq for a downtown 4/5."
Certainly many would, especially if the 4/5 is closer to their destination than the IND stop. But the L to 4/5 transfer is a real pain in rush hour. You go up a long stairway slowly in the company of a giant horde (I've had to go against the flow, and it's not easy), and then the most convenient stairways to the 4/5 are the narrowest and most crowded.
If you could transfer to the F, it's a short simple stairway and there you are.
>>>Culver Line passengers will lose their one-seat ride to 6th Ave. <<<
Aye, and there's the rub. People will NOT give up a one seat ride without a fight.
Peace,
ANDEE
Forget the one seat ride crap. The Culver line will be pretty damn useless. Where will it go? It won't go downtown. It would go too far west for midtown. It has lousy transfers to other lines, except for 6th Ave. It will serve, Brooklyn, Queens, and Chelsea without serving any business districts at all! Next thing you know, ridership will drop, it will be shortened to 4 car trains running once every 15 minutes in the rush. Years later it would be shortened to a shuttle running from Ave X to 4th/9th, before having the entire structure torn down because there is no point having that ugly el if no one is going to ride it!
Thanks alot bud!
As the trains are now, each one serves a limited purpose. 6th Ave brings people to midtown, 8th Ave brings people downtown. Neither one is completely useless. Switching them makes one more useful at the expense of the other.
I like comprehensive plans such as this one, but just one thing: You're on the B/D coming in over the North Side of the Bridge and you get to Bway Lafayette. You want an 8th Ave train. Aren't you going to run over to the local track, look for something, and then rush back if you don't for the escalator connection at W 4th, making you prone to danger. I see this so much on the simple local-express lines all over the city and I think this should be rectified before something happens.
Now with the E and F lines switching places, do you REALLY want to have NO FULTON St. EXPRESS SERVICE AT ALL in Brooklyn? Ridership on the A line will drop dramatically.
"Now with the E and F lines switching places, do you REALLY want to have NO FULTON St. EXPRESS SERVICE AT ALL in Brooklyn?"
The A would still run express in Brooklyn. The V would replace the C as the local.
Now with the E and F lines switching places, do you REALLY want to have NO FULTON St. EXPRESS SERVICE AT ALL in Brooklyn? Ridership on the A line will drop dramatically.
Additionally, the Jay-Lawrence cennection is in design stage, so construction won't start until 2005 at the earliest. The Bleecker-Ind connection from N/B IRT was in design stages since 1987, it's will be a wonder as to when this connection will be ever built.
Is the Jay-Lawrence connection a pedestrian connection through the station? I am correct in assuming this would never be a track connection?
It will be a new pedestrian connection (like the newest passageway at Court Square/23rd St. Ely station) and BOTH Jay Street and Lawrence St are key stations for ADA accessability.
The Bleecker connection is in the five year plan. Jay St Connector is in the plan for design only.
As far as Bleecker Connector- Full ADA will cone to both stations along with renovations to Bleecker which will keep the historic elements.
Jay ST Conncctor will also include elevators .
The transit fare hike seems to have upset alot of people, $2 is too much, not good enough service, blah blah blah. Yesterday a news reporter was interviewing a person who was smoking and complaing about the fare hike. Yet some of those same people spend $7 on a pack of cigerttets a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. What are they complaining about....I have no clue...maybe its too much because they gotta spend money now on transit and not cigeretts. Lower Income Households, in a latest study do not use metrocards in the weekly, monthly, daily packages, eventhough it saves when used and even with odds are that a two week pass might be in the works, they might not still use it, and with the odds that metrocards will have bigger savings, if they are not ultiling it, why are they mad that the fare is going up? There are alot more hypocrites out there, my personal favorite though are the people who say that the system is dirty and unsafe, while their teenage son or daughter does grafitti and scrachitti on the trains, I wonder why... Metrocard savings will keep the fare for us around $1.50-1.75. Also MTA is conciderating replacing lost monthly metrocards. There are alot more people who I can call Hypocrites for complaining about the fare hike, espcially the tax payers who dont want to shell out money for a second avenue subway line yet complain about overcrowding, then they use that for not wanting a fare hike...pitaful. Sorry for my rant, had to get off. Thank you.
Go to a bar and observe the tax stamps on cigarette packs people are smoking, I'll bet you can hardly find a NYC tax stamp.
Arti
Go to a bar and observe the tax stamps on cigarette packs people are smoking, I'll bet you can hardly find a NYC tax stamp.
Try this:
"Excuse me pretty young smoking lady person, would you show me your tax stamp?"
Get back to us with your findings. Thank you.
Usually that question would not be neccessary, as people tend to keep their cigarettes on the bar. As a regular bargoer I should know. And I've actually done those observations.
Arti
Yup, mine say Kentucky, screw Bloomberg.
Peace,
ANDEE
NJ here, gives me a reason to ride PATH. Actually yesterday took HBLR and was surprised how crowded the cars were even around 2PM. Looks like a success, despite slow speeds.
Arti
>>The transit fare hike seems to have upset alot of people, $2 is too much, not good enough service, blah blah blah. Yesterday a news reporter was interviewing a person who was smoking and complaing about the fare hike. Yet some of those same people spend $7 on a pack of cigerttets a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. What are they complaining about....I have no clue...maybe its too much because they gotta spend money now on transit and not cigeretts. Lower Income Households, in a latest study do not use metrocards in the weekly, monthly, daily packages, eventhough it saves when used and even with odds are that a two week pass might be in the works, they might not still use it, and with the odds that metrocards will have bigger savings, if they are not ultiling it, why are they mad that the fare is going up? There are alot more hypocrites out there, my personal favorite though are the people who say that the system is dirty and unsafe, while their teenage son or daughter does grafitti and scrachitti on the trains, I wonder why... Metrocard savings will keep the fare for us around $1.50-1.75. Also MTA is conciderating replacing lost monthly metrocards. There are alot more people who I can call Hypocrites for complaining about the fare hike, espcially the tax payers who dont want to shell out money for a second avenue subway line yet complain about overcrowding, then they use that for not wanting a fare hike...pitaful. Sorry for my rant, had to get off. Thank you.<<
This reminds me of a time when I was watching the news, some guy who looked like he was wearing some Armoni(I cant spell Armoni so corrrect me if Im right or wrong)shirt was saying that if the fare goes up then subway service should improve. The Irony was he was standing on the Northbound Platform at Grand Central. I got the urge to slap him in the face, but I couldn't(obviously the fact he was a mile away). Here some guy is waiting for a train on three of the best subway lines in the system yet he's saying service is slow. With the acception of the J,M and Z(and meybe the F) I cant find a way that MTA subway service is slow. And if people would stop throwing their foods on the platform or subway tracks then maybe it would be cleaner.
I know I'm the minority in this issue but I am pro fare hike. Everyones ready to bash the MTA but no one is willing to Aid the MTA.
You must be ecstatic when food prices go up at the supermarket.
Grocery prices are controlled by the producers of food. Subway fares are controlled by an idiotic government that couldn't tie its own shoes if the laces were made of velcro.
We CAN keep the fare at $1.50 for the next 500 years, we'll just have to raise taxes to do so. Instead of charing subway riders, you'll be charging everyone, even those who don't or can't use the subways, which I hope you realize is blatantly unfair.
Grocery prices are controlled by the producers of food.
I wish that were true. Unfortunately, it's not... between the big processing conglomerates and the grocery chains, the actual producers get squeezed until there's nothing left.
Three examples that I happen to be familiar with from close experience (neighbors or family):
1. Chicken production in this country is controlled by Tyson Foods (Tyson/Holly Farms) and Perdue. Neither of these conglomerates grow a single chicken. Rather, they tell the contract growers how much they will pay, they mandate that the grower purchase his pullets and feed from them, and they tell him exactly how many pounds they will purchase from him. Once he's made the investment in the chicken houses, he's stuck - at their mercy should they decide to cut back on purchases, cut the price they pay, raise the price of feed. (Mandatory rail content: the Nash County Railroad [ex-ACL branch from Rocky Mount] serves the Perdue feed mill in Nashville, North Carolina, about 15 miles from my home.)
2. Milk prices are currently at their lowest since 1982, when my cousin Dave bought his dairy farm in Carlisle, New York. Half of the farmers, representing 40% of the total production in his cooperative, have gone bankrupt in the past two years, and wholesale prices continue to drop, even though total production nationwide has gone down over 15% in that timeframe and retail prices of dairy products have risen 10% in that same interval.
3. Meat prices (lamb, beef - I don't know about pork) are somewhat more cyclical, but the average cost of production was about 85% of wholesale as recently as 1994; it hit 94% in 2001. Even at 85% the small farmer is being squeezed badly (my cousin Dick cut back the size of his flocks dramatically in 1995 and took a full-time job outside the agricultural field, although he and his wife still run several hundred sheep on their farm); wholesale prices have remained relatively constant over the past five years while costs have risen.
Supermarket margins, historically quite low, have gone up significantly in the past decade, and profits with them. In the meantime, the American farmer is being bankrupted out of existence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Meanwhile we seem to be p****ing away yet more taxpayer money into agricultural support. Obviously the small farms aren’t getting it.
Nope ... you have to be a certain size of "big" to get that money. Con-Agra, ADM, CocaCola, Tyson and damned few others are the ones who receive THIS corporate welfare. REAL farmers have to sell off their land to make more suburbs in order to meet their tractor payments. :(
Rest assured though, farmers don't see any of that ...
I'm not sure how much agricultural subsidy is still out there - some, to be sure, but not what there used to be. Milk price supports, designed to cover the ebb and flow of the marketplace, are gone, and the dairy products that once found their way into school lunch rooms, military mess halls, prisons, and other government programs (remember the cheese and butter distribution to welfare clients and low income senior citizens back in the '80s?) simply aren't being produced. On a per-capita basis, dairy consumption is at its lowest point since 1975. Eating habits have changed; ice cream isn't as popular as it once was, and schools are more concerned with "what can we feed the kids that they'll eat without throwing a temper tantrum like the spoiled brats they are" than with good nutrition. (What are the five most served foods in school cafeterias today, in order? French fries, pizza [made with imitation cheese], deep fried chicken nuggets, hot dogs, and sausage patties [I guess because of breakfast being served in so many places now]. What were they in 1960? Milk, meat loaf, green beans, roast chicken, and Jell-o. Source: The History Channel) Given the choices that Jr.'s school cafeteria offers, I make sure he eats some sort of breakfast before he leaves in the morning and I pack his lunch - typically a cheese or turkey sandwich, yogurt, some fruit, and some fresh salad vegetables - helps him stay on an even keel for the remainder of the day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Jeff,
Haven't you ever paid $2 to put your son on that 3 minute kiddie train ride in Roosevelt Field Mall? For $1.50 (actually I guess he might still be young enough to ride for free) you could take him on the A train for over and hour and ride for more than 20 miles.
The $1.50 swubway fare (and my $135 zone 4 LIRR Monthly) need to be increased to avoid service cutbacks, deferred maintenance, etc. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past (which started with trying to maintain the nickel fare for much too many years.)
Bob
The $1.50 swubway fare (and my $135 zone 4 LIRR Monthly) need to be increased to avoid service cutbacks, deferred maintenance, etc. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past (which started with trying to maintain the nickel fare for much too many years.)
As much as I dislike the idea of fare hikes, I suppose there haven't been any for a long time, a stretch of price stability found with few other products or services even in our low-inflation times.
Lol.
I really can care less about the food prices at the supermarket. Im not the type of person to say "RAISE THE PRICES OF EVERYTHING, TAX THE CITIZENS TO A POINT WHERE ITS TOO EXPENSIVE TO LIVE IN THE CITY." Im just the type of person that is willing to dish out the extra 50 cents to go to school and back. But if it helps Im anti Bloomberg.
The Irony was he was standing on the Northbound Platform at Grand Central. I got the urge to slap him in the face, but I couldn't(obviously the fact he was a mile away). Here some guy is waiting for a train on three of the best subway lines in the system yet he's saying service is slow.
I learned one thing from working the Passenger Control jobs. The only time people are happy with the service is when a train is sitting at the bottom of the stairs waiting for them. Those of you who use the Queens know how it is in the AM. But when there isn't a train sitting in the station, people walk down the stairs and say "This service is ridiculous."
Now that I'm a TW/O in the A div, what's ridiculous is how often most of those services run during the rush hours. If something lays down, all hell breaks loose.
I'll give customers though that B service isn't as good, but I don't think that can be helped knowing the workings of the system.
If someone isn't a (4) rider, they may be unhappy watching nothing but (4)s go by all day. Even worse if you are waiting for a <5> which gets cut off before the scheduled time sometimes
Many of those who complain to the Straphangers Campaign and the MTA about slow service, delays, uncleanliness of trains, are the same ones who hold the doors on one train, clearly seeing the next one behind the one train, thus slowing up service, hold up trains to ask questions because they are too blind to read signs or too deaf to listen to announcements, hold doors open, causing the doors to fail, then ask you "why ain't we movin'??", or throw coffee cups, newspapers, their lunch and everything on the floor, yet complain that the trains are dirty. They never have, and never will, understand, know or remotely realize that the majority of the things they complain about in regards to the system are of THEIR OWN DOING!! New Yorkers, especially the transit-riding public, are some "intriguing" folks!! lol
The big problem with raising the single ride fare to high is that it will hurt casual transit usage. People who don't or can't really use transit will NEVER use transit if the one time rate is expensive, especially for like a family sized group of people. If a transit return trip will cost more than like 20$, most people will just drive.
I am also sick of people using unlimited ride passes to calculate average fares. Of course if you bought a pass and used it constantly for a month your average ride would be like 25 cents. I don't want you or the MTA trying to tell me that "don't worry, the average fare is still only 25 cents". Passes only work for a specific group of people and should be considered entirely seperate from per-ride fares.
For a city with that high a farebox recovery ratio, anything higher than 1.50 for an accessable fare is insane. Even with SEPTA the fare drops to 1.30 if you just buy TWO tokens. I've been stuck shelling out 2.15 per ride to PATCO for the last year or so and let me tell you it is not fun.
>>> Also MTA is conciderating replacing lost monthly metrocards <<<
Isn't this how rumors start? I thought this was on the Straphangers' wish list, not something the MTA had announced it was considering.
Tom
New York Daily News, Tuesday, October 22, 2002, page 6, in an article entitled, "New deals in Cards for TA riders":
"Officials could offer replacement insurance for MetroCards for $5 to $10 a year."
This is one of the suggestions made by people who answered a survey conducted by a private company on the MTA's behalf. And yes, it's on the Straphangers' Campaign's wish list.
David
You make an intersting point about Metrocards. A neighbor of mine is a senior citizen. I spoke with him recently about getting a reduce fare Metrocard instead of waiting in line each time he used the subway to get his half fare return ticket. He at first seemed interested but quickly made up his mind to not get it. I asked him way he made that decision and could not get a straight anwser. In speaking further with him (and recalling the times I have accompanied him on trips on the subway when he was so proud of his return ticket, in fact he often offered it to me. Which I thanked him for the offer but explained I had my own Metrocard), the real reason (which he basically acknowledge to me) was he sees the return ticket as some REAL SPECIAL DEAL he gets as senior citizen. He can value the return ticket (he gets something in his hand in exchange for his fare) while the the concept of the Reduced Fare Metrocard doesn't really register with him.
Sorry for my rant, had to get off.
Make sure you wipe, brah.... or you can always
ride it to the next stop and hit the underpass 360..
The transit fare hike seems to have upset alot of people, $2 is too much, not good enough service, blah blah blah. Yesterday a news reporter was interviewing a person who was smoking and complaing about the fare hike. Yet some of those same people spend $7 on a pack of cigerttets a day, 7 days a week, 365/366 days a year. What are they complaining about....I have no clue... maybe its too much because they gotta spend money now on transit and not cigeretts. Lower Income Households, in a latest study do not use metrocards in the weekly, monthly, daily packages, eventhough it saves when used and even with odds are that a two week pass might be in the works, they might not still use it, and with the odds that metrocards will have bigger savings, if they are not ultiling it, why are they mad that the fare is going up? There are alot more hypocrites out there, my personal favorite though are the people who say that the system is dirty and unsafe, while their teenage son or daughter does grafitti and scrachitti on the trains, I wonder why... Metrocard savings will keep the fare for us around $1.50-1.75. Also MTA is conciderating replacing lost monthly metrocards. There are alot more people who I can call Hypocrites for complaining about the fare hike, espcially the tax payers who dont want to shell out money for a second avenue subway line yet complain about overcrowding, then they use that for not wanting a fare hike...pitaful. Sorry for my rant, had to get off. Thank you.
Hi everyone!
Do you know an eBay seller whose screen name is
goodoletimes? He's out of White Plains.
I'm trying to get a question through to him through eBay,
and it's not going through. Perhaps his mailbox is full,
I don't know what the problem is! Anyway, I thought one of
you might have his name and phone number since he seems to have
lots of transit items for sale.
Thanks!
Sometimes sellers never bother to answer questions, especially if they've already received a bid on an item -- sure way to lose bidders.
It's not that. The site seems to be having trouble loading the question. It just goes to "cannot display this page" after about
30 seconds of trying!
I also don't see a "Contact Us" for eBay!
Lynne,
If you get the "Cannot display page" on ebay just click on your reload/refresh button (it may have to be done a couple of times).
eBay's "Contact us" is well hidden unless you know where to find it:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/basics/select-support.html
Allan
Dear Allan,
Hi! Thanks, I'll try it.
Last night on Metro Channel, Fran Healy hosted a two hour program about the 40 year history of the METS. The program began with the Giants and Dodgers deserting NYC for the west coast. It then told of Bill Shea's unsuccesful efforts to lure the Reds, Phillies or Pirates to NY.
The program showed footage of the Polo Grounds and then told how the current field was to be called "Flushing Meadows Stadium" and how a last minute decision changed it to "Shea Stadium". As they were saying this they showed a shot taken from the west end of the middle platform. The w/b local platform had a sign that said Willets Pt. Blvd and a hastily made "Shea Stadium" sign hung below it. At that second a TS bound train left the platform blocking the view. You saw 2 R36 WF cars in the orginal colors rumble by before they showed more of the program.
Those two cars looked sharp in their original colors. Didn't catch the #'s but if I see the program repeated i'll look closer and report back.
I still remember the subway maps from 1964-65 which, in the "Points of Interest" section, had Shea Stadium alpabetized under the Fs. See the one on nycsubway.org. Shea Stadium is #13, between Empire State Building and Freedomland.
-- Ed Sachs
The Phillies were never really in the mix as a possible replacement for the Giants and the Dodgers in New York. The Reds were actually set to move to New York but word got out and the city fathers of that city moved quickly to stop it. The Pirates, according to legendary sports writer Dick Young, was the team most likely to leave Pittsburgh and come to Gotham. However, when nothing in that direction happened Branch Rickey launched the Continental League, a move that was only stopped when Major League Baseball agreed to expand to ten National League teams for the 1962 season, adding Houston and New York to the mix.
It must have been a real bummer for Dodger and Giant fans to have to have only the Yankees to follow in their city during those dark years of 1958-1961. I'm sure as hell lucky I was no longer in town to have to endure that.
One problem with anyone wanting to move to New York was the lack of a decent place to play. The Polo Grounds was all but condemned when the Giants left and Ebbets Field had already been sold to a housing developer. When the Mets came into being, they spent $300,000 to restore the Polo Grounds to playable condition, and somehow it remained standing for their first two seasons. Shea Stadium aka the Toilet Bowl was supposed to be ready in time for the 1963 season, but delays pushed the opening back to 1964.
Does anyone know where the subway scenes for the movie "Beat Street" were filmed?
I was looking through the GOs for the next week, there doesn't appear to be anything scheduled for Wednesday night, Thursday, and Friday. Is it safe to assume that no GOs will go on during that time? Also, would that hold true through the rest of that weekend?
Thanks in advance!
dont count on NO General Orders for next weekend. i work for MTA Metro North as many of you know, and since we are running on holiday and AMMENDED schedule, i assume NYCT will too, and u know during holiday and weekend schedules is when they do their work. In Metro North they even plan to run "Waterworld" and the sweeper on the harlem and NH lines since there will NOT be many trains. Waterworld is a train that travels the MNRR lines literally blasting leaves off of the tracks and the sweeper train gets rid of the oily substance it leaves behind. this was in this weeks MNR newspaper. Anyways i wont mind workin this thanksgiving because i work nights so i can still be with the family somewhat, and i get time and a half, plus 16 hours holiday for BOTH thursday and friday.
The subways don't have "holiday" or "ammended" schedules for the purposes of when the trains come, although they have to pick jobs for Thursday. I don't doubt you about NO work, but I was more interested in Thursday (which seems to be GO free) and Friday.
Thursday should be GO-free, since it is a holiday. Friday is a regular day. Look for everything to come back on the weekend.
Friday is a regular day in terms of service but not in terms of crowds. Count on very empty trains.
And its a perfect chance to get railfanning in since many of us do not have our usual commitments.
Well don't expect them to reopen the Bridge and CI for the day but yes in general no GO's on holidays
Friday is a weekday schedule, meaning if you want a seat during rush hour, here is your best chance
There is no reason for the TA to run a regular weekday schedule on the day after Thanksgivng as well as many other additional days when lots of people are off from work. All weekday service should be running, but we don't need to have E and F trains runnning 4 or 5 minutes apart or #7 trains funning 2 minutes apart during the rush. No wonder why the TA is supposedly broke!
This might be a RTO weekday, Stations Weekend type day. My money is on the Kings Hwy (Q) part time entrances being closed. Don't ABD's (abandons) go up on Fri after turkey?
As I said, regular train schedules are operated. Superintendants do not like ABD's, be it the day after Thankdgiving or any other day. They do not need all that service the day after turkey day.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r27-8236.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r30-8370.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r30-8408.jpg
That picture of the "A" train was taken during a farewell to R30s fan trip. However, I did see a six car train of rebuilt redbird R30s on the Far Rockaway A train one Saturday evening. I caught the following train to try to catch it on a return trip. I got off at 191 St. and waited on the opposite platform. The train never showed up.
My guess is that they shortend this train (from 8 cars) and stuck it in service long enough to find a replacemnt set of R38s at 207th St. (at that time during nights and weekends, the "A" trains were served exclusively by six car R38s).
On Tuesday between 12 and 5 AM, the L will be skipping 1st and 3rd Avenues in both directions. Also, the L will be running in three sections: Canarsie to Bedford Avenue, Bedford Avenue to Union Square, and Union Square to 8th Avenue. Anyone know why they are doing this and why they are skipping 1st and 3rd but having trains go through there?
They say to take the M14 during that time, and it will run every 8 minutes.
They don't like to go over a 20 minute scheduled headway. Having a single track operation from Bedford to Eighth would make that threshold rather difficult to maintain. Hopefully. at least on paper, they'll have timed connections at Union Sq. and Bedford. Why the're skipping First and Third is beyond me, but the reason should be made evident in reading the GO, but I haven't seen it.
Maybe if 1st and 3rd weren't bypassed, it would take to long to get between Bedford and Union Square.
The old GO was messed up already with the batons. They have a very good ATD there most nights otherwise something bad might have happened. This GO will have no batons.
One was killed last night. My God, this is out of hand. That's two this week! There was a contractor killed at Atlantic Avenue early in the year. And I think there was someone killed in the middle of the year besides. That's four dead in one year! Despite zillions spent on flagging!
Getting back to budget cuts, I think it's really time to revisit buses in the overnight hours instead of trains. Use technology to let them turn the lights green so they can move along.
In addition to the vandalism, the crime, the homeless, and the poor service the subway offers from midnight to six, you have this. The money and live saved in maintenance and capital contracts would be well worth it.
>>One was killed last night. My God, this is out of hand. That's two this week! There was a contractor killed at Atlantic Avenue early in the year. And I think there was someone killed in the middle of the year besides. That's four dead in one year! Despite zillions spent on flagging!<<
Considering the amount spent on flagging thats pretty low. Thats about one person dead every 3 months.
>>In addition to the vandalism, the crime, the homeless, and the poor service the subway offers from midnight to six, you have this. The money and live saved in maintenance and capital contracts would be well worth it.<<
The service is poor because not too many people ride the subway after 11PM. And yes vandalism and the homeless is a big problem, crime is considerably down.
Perhaps after the little rash of incidents, they might try giving a refresher course on safety.
#3 West End Jeff
They are. But, they're giving it to the wrong group.
It does the T/A a lot of good when they give the refresher courses on safety to the wrong group, NOT!
#3 West End Jeff
>>>>The service is poor because not too many people ride the subway after 11PM.<><<<
If you consider over 250,000 people, "not too many people", I would advise you to reconsider.
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember that the TA touts that it serves 4.7 million (I think that's what the latest figure was) people daily. So probably as far as they're concerned that is a small amount (5%).
Yup. That's three this year -and all of them in places that weren't flagged properly. Zillions for flagging? Maybe what they need to do is retrain everyone who is flagging qualified, but not an RTO flagger.
Instead, this afternoon, 'they' decided it must be the T/Os who are at fault, so we are now prone to 'spot' checks to make sure we have all our safety equipment (how this helps the people on the roadbed, I don't know), as well as endless critiques of how to operate in flagging set-ups. Nothing said about re-instruction of Signals and Track personnel, who half the time don't have a clue about how to flag properly.
The one last night was point to point and they were setting up when they got hit. Or at least that was the story at the Exec Board meeting today.
It was also VERY messy physically.
Another thing that this won't help with - a lot of times one work site tends to 'piggyback' on another, without notice to anyone. However when that work area with proper flagging leaves, the other work area has no protection. Happens a lot too.
Another thing that this won't help with - a lot of times one work site tends to 'piggyback' on another, without notice to anyone. However when that work area with proper flagging leaves, the other work area has no protection. Happens a lot too.
: (
The more I think about it the more I like the Idea of "Automatic Flaging"
You permanently install beacons in the ties, about every 20 or 30 feet apart. (Bright LED Arrays will do it.)
EACH PERSON WORKING has a personal device, like a TV Remote.
A Work crew arrives at a site, and activates their device.
The lights on the affected track are SOLID RED for a distance of 200 feet. They are FLASHING RED for a distance of 600 feet, and FLASHING AMBER for a distance of an additonal 1200 feet, and on all adjacent tracks.
A Train may approach upto the solid red lights, and then come no closer until each person in the work crew shuts off their device. If a crewman accidently steps across onto and adjacent track, it sets the lights on that track to solid red, and sounds an alerter in their personal device.
When the work is finished Each employee on the tracks shuts off their device.
That accounts for everybody.
It is especially helpful for signalmen who may be working alone, or for track walkers who may enter the roadbed one place and leave by another: He just keeps just keeps his device turned on, and the sensors mounted on the tracks keeps track of his presence.
When the last man leaves the system, there are no more personal devices on the line, and the lights clear by shutting themselves off.
THAT is my idea! Now go refine it or tell me what is wrong with my plan!
Elias
(THAT is my idea! Now go refine it or tell me what is wrong with my plan!)
Sounds great to me. The only problem is how to be on one track with your sensor on and not set off the other tracks. You could have some switches to be turned on or off, but that brings back the possibility of human error.
plus the cost of installing this.
Actually, NYCT has a Request for Information out now for such a system.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/procure/notices/02rfin07.pdf
David
They were fooling around with a flagging 'robot' a few months ago that worked with a remote to tell it when it could pass the trains thru.
That was a one per crew thing not a device every 30' like was suggested.
The cost may not be as much in the grand scheme of things as you might think.
Say there is 400 route miles of subway
times four tracks...
That would be about 1600 miles of track to protect.
Say a mile is 6000 feet, divided by a 30' spacing...
That is 320,000 devices.
Say the devices cost $100 each...
That is 32 million dollars.
You just walk down the track, mounting the devices every 30 feet, and connecting them to a power source. (The third rail *is* right there, but maybe something else can be used.)
A worker can turn his device on and point it at the nearest detector.
That device, since it is receiving an uncoded signal from a protection device switched to RED, and sends the number "99" to the next device down the line. That device turns to red and transmits "98" to the next device. around device 75 the lights are flashing rather than solid, and around device 50 they are flashing yellow. Device "0" swallows the signal and does not pass it along.
The trackworkers EACH ONE that is on the line, sets their device on the tracks and points it at the nearest detector.
When it is time to clear the road they retrive their devices and move to a save palce.If they go out onto an adjining track that track will pick up their signal.
Their devices are not much more complicated than a TV remote, and those can be had in walmart for about six bucks.
We aint talkin rocket science here, and it is a one time expense.
Keep thinking about it.
Well, here's a REAL silly idea. And MUCH cheaper than tens of millions. Simple work rule change. REQUIRE that any trackworkers on the ground be protected by a WORK TRAIN behind them. That takes the block out, makes sure that there's an obstruction behind them guaranteed to take out the balls behind them and divert behind that. Sure it'll cause some inconvenience, but I'd bet the downtime would be a LOT less than having to hose down the tracks. :(
>>> Well, here's a REAL silly idea. And MUCH cheaper than tens of millions. Simple work rule change. REQUIRE that any trackworkers on the ground be protected by a WORK TRAIN behind them. <<<
I'll go along with the first part. You are suggesting that no work, no matter how minor, could be performed on active tracks. And if I remember correctly, the worker before this one was killed on an adjacent track. Should there be two work trains?
Tom
Because these two incidents are under active investigation - I wll not comment on any specifics although I can state that I have no inside information related to either. Unfortunately people seem to need to rush to judgement. Much like in the airtrain incident - all the facts are not known yet. It seems that everyone is now chanting the mantra "Flagging - flagging - Flagging".
I can assure you that flagging is not 100% foolproof. As has been said many times, "Anyone who thinks something is foolproof, underestimates the creativity of a fool."
Trains have been known to run workgangs with lamps and portable stops. The only sure safeguard is to remember at all times where you are and who may be operating that next train. "Take nothing for granted." "Take no shortcuts." "Keep your mind on the task at hand."
(It seems that everyone is now chanting the mantra "Flagging - flagging - Flagging". )
Certainly, the TWU is going to think the anwser is more flagging. The cost is higher, though not as high as this rate of fatalities. As it is, capital projects have been impaired due to a lack of flaggers at times this year.
But if they can advance their point of view, so can I. We have a budget crisis. An occasional death seems to be part of the cost of 24/7 operation. There seems to be less trouble outdoors in the daytime, where the T/O has a less restricted field of vision. Maybe we should reconsider service from 12 am to 6 am.
Forgive me but I strongly disagree. At the cost of a single human life, the cost is too high and completely unacceptable. The question is whether more flagging will end the deaths.
I think the problem can be solved simply & at virtually no cost to the TA. Time will tell if cooler heads prevail.
An occasional death seems to be part of the cost of 24/7 operation. There seems to be less trouble outdoors in the daytime, where the T/O has a less restricted field of vision. Maybe we should reconsider service from 12 am to 6 am.
Let's not forget that this is NYC. No midnight service is unacceptable, especially considering just how many people ride. Equally unacceptable is any death.
Night G/O's frequently shut down a particular section of track. Don't see why this couldn't be done all the time...
My pops works for safety, and actually teaches the course. I'll see if he finds anything out (that he can tell me anyways...)
In the second fatality the supervisor should have been his escort.
When you set up flagging the old old rule were supposedly that someone watches your back as you set up.
In the first fatality there may have been an issue of an instruction being misunderstood.
"I can assure you that flagging is not 100% foolproof."
That is certainly true. I'm sure it is possible to be struck by a train that is proceeding at 10 mph.
But how could it be safe NOT to have flagging or some other kind of equivalent warning to tell the train to slow down? Is there any way it can be safe for a track worker to be on the tracks when at any moment a train might come barreling along at 30 mph, especially when the track from which the train will come can't be seen?
Flagging MUST be responsible to the department that has and can BEST provide workman protection, and not to the departments that can tinker with its protection for purposes of productivity or cost. RTO is not subject to flinging shovels, hammers, or troubleshooting signal wiring and the like. They move and FLAG trains. The union's biggest mistake was to allow for track department to be cut in on flagging so as to reduce RTO's budgets. As far as point to point flagging, those rules must be rewritten. Too many signal foremen I have worked with know you can't possibly have two men troubleshooting a signal, one for a relay room or box and the other to check on the waysides, stop arm, light bulbs or wiring in the feild, AND watch his a$$ for oncoming trains. On the railroads, foul time must be requested, and no trains are permitted to pass. Foul time MUST be requested by the workers if they can not clear up within a certain amout of time as a train approaches. These accidents clearly happen because there is not enough manpower. When track foremen order their flagmen to put up the reds and go into the pits so RTO doesn't have to pay for the bill safety is comprimised. When signal maintainers die in PAIRS (Kings Highway McDonald, 121 Street J line wrongrail, Astor Place #4 it is clear to see the TA is a deathtrap. It wouldn't surprise me to see they want a robot to replace a construction flagman. I heard RTO is critiquing T/Os over flagging bulletins and will conduct spot checks to see who isn't giving them 10 MPH. Another cheap fix from the friends at NYCT.
Yep Supt. Bart is out there with the radar gun. They are taking you OOS for 20MPH.
Lets face it some of the gangs want you out quick too. It only works until someone gets hurt.
It wouldn't surprise me to see they want a robot to replace a construction flagman.
In theory CBTC and other advanced forms of cab signaling allow this.
Where there is a work zone, a temporary speed restriction can
be programmed in.
"In theory" is a great idea. Sometimes however what "should be" is different that "what is".
Plus if they are maintaining the signals I would not trust the signal to protect them too
Then again, without going into too much detail, simply creating a "track circuit" at the worksite would give you the full protection of the signal system.
The recent deaths of these two tragedies will probably lead to more slow speed orders throughout the system. You can't really blame the T/O b/c if there's improper flagging, they are going to assume everything is all good although some do not know how to flag properly. I believe they should look at how they plan their GO's sometimes, maybe they should just stop train service and institute more shuttle buses to repalce trains for work but due to a strained budget, that really can't happen too much. I agree with you, maybe they should go through retraining at times.
The union has to get the NTSB involved, without injury to customers it might be hard. OSHA maybe?
Expect an announcement on Monday about full flagging.
There was a signal trouble yesterday AM which was using full formal flagging.
Saturday at the exec bd meeting they told us they were going to make an announcement on Monday. I saw them on TV when I got home from the meeting. At least the TA put in a 1 day moritorium if only to bust up the Unions call for all trains at 10 mph.
>>"One was killed last night. My God, this is out of hand. That's two this week! There was a contractor killed at Atlantic Avenue early in the year. And I think there was someone killed in the middle of the year besides. That's four dead in one year! Despite zillions spent on flagging!"<<
Yeah, the worker was killed on the E. How could this happen TWICE in one week, within 3 days. The MTA promotes safety but yet 2 workers get killed in something that could have been prevented. Maybe we should think twice about their meaning of safety. The partner of the worker killed on the 3, who also got injured said that it was only 2 or 3 workers and couldn't look for trains and work at the same time & says its not enough workers as a team. As for the worker killed on the E, there were NO flags on the tracks, which is crazy, that should be investigated. I was watching Ch 5 and one person [a MTA worker] said "the MTA cares about schedules over the lives of workers". Its sad that these 2 tragedies had to happen and I believe the families are going to sue them and this is not a good time for that.
They were supposedly setting up the point to point when they got hit.
"They were supposedly setting up the point to point when they got hit. "
Please Explain. Thanks.
To be honest most track workers get complacent on the tracks and forget how Goddam dangerous of a place it is.It is truly sad that employees who have it beaten into them"always walk against traffic,look both directions before entering,Always have flashlight On and pointing in the direction of traffic"forget.To err is human ,look at how many people get hit by cars crossing a street,or fall down elevator shafts why because people get comfortable.
We cannot blame all flagging ,when properly setup flagging is 100% fullproof,but sometimes people cut corners and accidents occur.I was a flagman and saw personnaly people who said nah I got years nothing will happen because working on the tracks became like sitting in a chair too easy.They forgot 44 tons of moving steal is only a fraction of a second away.The incident on the E had no flaggin protection and the person was on the wrong track,How was that T/O supposed to know he was there.
The most dangerous time is not when the work is going on but when the flagging operation is being set up. This seemed to be the problem with the Canal St. incident. I've had more than one close call in my career.
I grieve for the famlies of the workers, and hope that they can find solace. The job is very dangerous, so how about making it safer - that takes cooperation from all of us.
Hopefully one piece of good that will come out of this fare increase once and for all is to get rid of the 20th century tokens and join the 21st century and force the reluctant to begin using metrocards and the MVM's.
This could be spurred on by taking cc's and debit cards for single fare tickets as well.
It certainly takes no longer in this day and age to complete a cc transaction than a cash transaction.
Tokens are the only weapons ordinary people have against fare hikes. They can stock up now and hopefully avoid the increases for months or years.
Not necessarily so:
1. If you buy a large amount of tokens, you’re effectively making a loan to the TA. You need to work out your cost of money (and how much you can spend) versus the savings. Remember that people who buy tokens, according to the surveys, are those with least money to spare!
2. The TA has changed the token in the past with a fare hike, rendering the strategy useless.
John
Unless they change the token.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unless they change the token. The TA presently has 5 types in storage.
Peace,
ANDEE
That makes me wonder. When they got rid of the bull's eye token a few years ago, did they save them? What are the 5 types they have in storage?
Small and large Y-cut tokens ($.35 and .50) and the Diamond Jubilee token. (two types right here)
$.60/$.75 solid-Y token. (third type)
$.90 - $1.25 "Bull's Eye" token. (fourth type)
Current $1.50 "Five Boroughs" pentagon-cut token.
Additionally, they have the $3.50 express Y-cut token. That is, if they still do have these in storage. I want one. I used them to get to Bronx Science in '92 and never saved one, as I have the rest.
I am sure they could still use old TBTA Rockaway/Henry Hudson tokens for a fare hike as they were retired at approximately the same value the TA wants to set the new fare. That would be nice.
The small dime-sized token went away when the fare went from 20 to 30 cents in 1970. I have a pair of cuff links and a tie clip that feature 20-cent tokens.
The thicker quarter-sized token with the Y cutout was used for a decade starting with the 30-cent fare until the fare went to 60 cents in 1980.
One thing is that the TM store is selling all of them for $1.75. So there goes that idear.
Robert
Many times they would change the token right after the fare hike, although I do remember a few bluffs in recent years with the fare hikes. A few times at the last minute they would announce that they would not be changing the token, a ploy obviously to avoid people hording tokens.
UGHGH, there you go once more.
lol.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Tokens are the only weapons ordinary people have against fare hikes. They can stock up now and hopefully avoid the increases for months or years."
If these are the same people concerned about "avoiding the increase", they could have saved hundreds of dollars over the *previous* years by using Metro Cards instead of tokens.
"Tokens are the only weapons ordinary people have against fare hikes. They can stock up now and hopefully avoid the increases for months or years."
Even if the MTA doesn't change or abolish the token, they only have a limited number. If too many people start hoarding, NYCT just runs out of tokens to sell.
CTA in Chicago abandoned tokens a couple of years ago. Transit Card or cash only now.
-- Ed Sachs
Very progressive. The NYC TA should take a lesson from them.
Peace,
ANDEE
They were going to eliminate tokens in 1998, but for some reason they apparently chickened out.
Yeah, the turnstyles should accept CASH! Specifically the new UNIVERSAL TRANSIT TOKEN (aka Golden Dollar). Ha, you didn't think it actually had a use did you.
It does have a use: to replace the Dollar note.
Cash? I didn't see any cash turnstiles. I had to put my cash in the machine and buy a card.
And our machines are much better than Chicago's -- Chicago's don't take plastic and IIRC they don't give change.
Back around 1980 there were turnstiles in Transit that accepted 2 quarters instead of the then current 50 cent token. IIRC they didn't work out too well.
Each CTA station has at least one turnstile that accepts coins (no paper money, but dollar coins are OK).
-- Ed Sachs
I guess I've never noticed them. Do they give change?
No, but I believe that they still have a change machine in each station (which will give you dollar coins and quarters for paper money).
-- Ed Sachs
There was never a change machine in NYC. The closest thing here was and is the token booth.
And for a while they resurrected the old Surface Transit tokens.
>>> Hopefully one piece of good that will come out of this fare increase once and for all is to get rid of the 20th century tokens and join the 21st century and force the reluctant to begin using metrocards and the MVM's <<<
Think back to the reason the token was introduced. The coin slots on the turnstiles were too primitive to quickly accept multiple coins, so when the fare went up to 15¢ the token was introduced. If MVMs can take any assortment of coins and bills and dispense a single ride card plus change, there is no longer a need for the token (or the change booth).
Tom
>>>>This could be spurred on by taking cc's and debit cards for single fare tickets as well. <<<
They already do that, at MVMs.
I agree they should've gotten rid of the token years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>This could be spurred on by taking cc's and debit cards for single fare tickets as well. <<<
>>>>>>They already do that, at MVMs.<<<<<<
I don't have reason to doubt you but as I remember, the MVM's indicate they only take cc's and debit cards for transactions of $3 or more.
BTW this is a violation of the rules that Visa/MC have established which prohibits a merchant from applying either a minimum purchase price or a surcharge on credit card transactions....
Several years ago, the RATP in France used to have a rule that you could only use a credit card in their version of MVM's for transactions of at least 45 French Francs (something like $6 or $7)...then came an armored car strike and the country began running out of small bank notes. They discovered the system worked perfectly well by taking credit cards for single rides which then cost 8 French Francs (just over $1). So the machines were changed and now in Paris, you can use a credit card to purchase Metro tickets from the machines for as little as 1€ about $1 by today's exchange rate.
Also the new machines in London now take cc's for all transactions including extension tickets for 90p.
I guess the day is coming when you will be able to use your credit card in lieu of a metrocard.....
I guess the day is coming when you will be able to use your credit card in lieu of a metrocard…
Actually, I’m looking forward to the day when I can use my MetroCard for small cash purchases. Credit card authorization takes too long.
Until we have cheap, “always on” (but not necessarily high-speed) Internet service, credit cards will be too slow for high-volume use in places like newsstands.
John
Theoretically the smart card is supposed to allow that (AMEX Blue.) I don't know if it actually works this way yet.
Arti
Actually, I’m looking forward to the day when I can use my MetroCard for small cash purchases. Credit card authorization takes too long.
Wouldn't Exxon/Mobil's SpeedPass work just as well too?
BTW this is a violation of the rules that Visa/MC have established which prohibits a merchant from applying either a minimum purchase price or a surcharge on credit card transactions....
I've been told that the minimum purchase prohibition has been changed, and it may now be negotiated between a merchant and their bank.
The surcharge prohibition on card transactions remains in force; indeed, it is against the law in some states (which makes for an interesting juxtaposition, since in at least one of those states - North Carolina - you can pay certain taxes by credit card, but you are subject to a surcharge so that the state ends up with the same amount that they would have had you paid by check or cash).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
<<<<The surcharge prohibition on card transactions remains in force; indeed, it is against the law in some states (which makes for an interesting juxtaposition, since in at least one of those states - North Carolina - you can pay certain taxes by credit card, but you are subject to a surcharge so that the state ends up with the same amount that they would have had you paid by check or cash).>>>>>
Don't think minimum purchase rules has been relaxed. MC/Visa have always had that rule...Amex has a rule prohibiting discrimination against Amex cards. Thus if a merchant only takes Amex, the merchant could apply a minimum purchase rule but it is very very rare to find merchants who take Amex but don't take MC/Visa.
As far as no surcharges...remember how the gasoline companies used to get away with it. They simply called their surcharges the regular price and claimed they were giving discounts for cash. Seemed to me then that if one pump for cash charge 4 cents less than the pump for credit cards, I was paying a surcharge.....Of course there are still merchants who try to pull this bs even today.
I can name few bars, where they have minimum on AMEX, but not on MC/Visa.
Arti
You can usually negotiate a discount for cash with a small merchant. I made a couple of rather substantial purchases at a train show today (O-27 stuff for my grandchildren) and was able to get an extra discount for cash from one of the two merchants (the other didn't take credit cards at the show). For a large merchant (Wal*Mart, for example) the cost of a credit card transaction probably isn't much different than the cost of handling the cash and is safer than accepting a check.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Small merchants in NYC usually don't charge you tax if you use cash.
Arti
Small merchants in NYC usually don't charge you tax if you use cash.
Which, of course, is not legal.
And why don't you think they charge you tax....because they have no intention of report it on their sales tax return.
No different from contractors telling you they won't charge you tax if you give them cash and not a cheque....don't want to create a paper trail.
When you do this, you are committing a crime as you are abetting tax evasion....
Of course, you also supposed to pay use tax if you somehow (mail order) didn't pay the tax in the first place.
Arti
It's never been a blanket prohibition. The merchant signs a contract before credit cards are accepted. The standard form of that contract doesn't allow minimum charges, and that's what most merchants are stuck with. The MTA is large enough that a custom contract was probably written up, and it presumably allows for a minimum charge.
I noticed on Thursday that the MEM's (cashless machines) don't have single-ride slots. It took me a few seconds to realize why.
The rolls for single ride tickets would take up space. I think THAT is the more important reason.
Those of you in the know are aware of the Roger Vs. Sonny deal. Remember the International has to approve any strikes.
Somehow I don't think that Roger T. will care about that.
He has already told Sonny Hall to stay out of his business.
My feeling is that if there is a strike it will mean the end of the union.
If they go on strike without Sonny's approval it sends the local into receivership (Sonny's hands).
This all assumes rationality:
1. The people in the rest of the state understand that the city is a net contributor of money to them.
2. That those same people understand that the transit system is central to the city's economy.
3. That union leaders elected on a "let em burn" platform will understand how much money is available and how much less others now have to pay them.
4. That riders will understand that the money Pataki took out of the capital plan is gone, and that the resulting debts will have to be paid or he will destroy the city.
Local 100 has MANY problems. I know a number of transit workers who say they will cross the picket lines if a strike happens.
Peace,
ANDEE
(Local 100 has MANY problems. I know a number of transit workers who say they will cross the picket lines if a strike happens.)
Which ones? Is it the old bus vs. subway split? Bus Division workers know how many people on the right are itching to replace them with private vans and buses, driving by people with lower salaries. Subway workers know the city can't get by without them.
Just caught word that AirTrain, because of the accident, ongoing investigation, halting of testing and now potential budgetary savings has been "indefinitely postponed" ... Fox5 WNYW made mention of the delay but didn't elaborate ...
Just saw it on Fox 5 myself. Airtrain's end of the year opening is put on hold b/c of the September accident. Expect it to open sometime in 2003.
#1979 X17
The reason I mentioned "*rumor*" is that Division of the Budget, still trying to find ANYTHING they can cut funding for, is indeed looking at the PA pushing it off further to cut state contributions. Jersey's in the fiscal toilet too and both states would benefit by freezing that cost at this time. It ***might*** get pushed off further.
I knew it was too good to be true the way it was moving along. (Well at least until the accident anyway). I thought the whole project was going on fairly rapidly, considering how it takes forever to get anything done in NY.
Be careful, it's JUST a rumor at this point. Reported as fact in a few circles (I don't consider FOX credible, nor do I consider folks who work in a state agency either) but with it on a back burner already, there IS a risk that it might be further delayed. We'll all have more of an idea in mid January, and definitely late next spring. But anything laying on its side right now in a budget crunch *is* easy pickings for the hatchet-swingers ...
Taking that AVA to go on the tour August was one of the smartest things I've ever done. Looks like that may be the only view I'll have od it for some time.
Delayed we all knew, DEAD would be something different. Are they going to mothball it for 20 years, like the 63rd Street tunnel? I doubt it. It will just take a long time to get out the kinks.
I guess the word "dead" was excessive, my apologies. In state service (which is where my experience is, in addition to nearly 30 years of covering politics as a journalist type) you learn "dead" in terms of the current budget cycle and likely the next. This in turn requires life support to keep a project from being scrapped entirely. AirTrain is far enough along that "dead" may not be the right choice of words since it's too VISIBLE to kill entirely. Then again, a good amount of the Second Avenue subway did get built too and look where that's gone.
By "dead" I mean that it's been suggested that the project go on hiatus for a while (longer than sometime next year) so money can be recovered from work that hasn't been done and then pick up on it again when we have an economy again (possibly in 2005). That's what I've heard suggested, but then the folks I know are scrounging in all sorts of places to see where there's recoverable cash to offset the draconian cuts there could be if money can't be recovered from what's out there now.
But from what I'm hearing, I wouldn't get up much hope for things early next year as was recently expected for AirTrain and additional phases of construction may be a no starter at all ... I don't think 5 or 20 years though, it's too far along. Does that sorta clarify what I'm wondering about? I don't know what's pending as far as contracts now in the works that cannot be weaseled out of. :)
>> AirTrain is far enough along that "dead" may not be the right choice of words since it's too VISIBLE to kill entirely. <<
That's right. The uproar from commuters on the Van Wyck Expwy alone would be enough to make political heads roll. They suffered through years of construction delays, and if the thing doesn't open at all they'll want justice.
>> Then again, a good amount of the Second Avenue subway did get built too and look where that's gone. <<
But that's underground-- not visible. :)
I tend to doubt that the delays will be particularly long. It may sound trite, but AirTrain really has gone past the point of no return. Not only is the trackway complete, but you've got the rolling stock on site, the stations at JFK, Jamaica and Howard Beach well under way, and so on. Delaying the project for more than (my best guess) six months or so would be just too big a nut for the PA to swallow.
Of course, budget woes may triumph over face-saving (a strange use of the word "triumph," but that's the way it goes) and lead to more extensive delays. If the money isn't there, it isn't there. In addition, you have the fact that AirTrain's raison d'etre has diminished what with the post-9/11 falloff in air travel - JFK is one of the hardest-hit airports in the country. Even so, I still don't anticipate long delays.
It's a hard one to call, and bear in mind my repeated use of the word "rumor" ... there's a lot of desperate docudroids and adminiswigs up in Smallbany burning the midnight coal trying to figure out what to cut and how to justify it, and just like the last time we had a Bush in office, they're turning every stone they can to find money that can be added to the "gots" pile. We've been here before. Last time of course, they were digging the second avenue subway that was so far underway it couldn't possibly be stopped. :)
Of course, if suddenly we had an economy again, then the pressure would be off ...
Wouldn't the airlines want it open also? At least the on airport portion of the project. I would think they could hold off on the parts of the shuttle that leave the airport.
Wouldn't the airlines want it open also? At least the on airport portion of the project. I would think they could hold off on the parts of the shuttle that leave the airport.
I wouldn't imagine that the airlines are particularly concerned about the intra-airport section. Having AirTrain running between the terminals mainly would help passengers who are making connections. JFK, unlike many other large airports, has relatively little connecting traffic. American Airlines has some, but AirTrain doesn't matter because AA uses terminals 8 and 9, which are connected by a corridor(and is building a replacement terminal). JetBlue also has some connecting traffic, but all of B6's flights use Terminal 6.
Originally, the airport circulator was supposed to open before any of the outside section. I was wondering if this might happen now because of the incident (and damage to a portion of structure outside the loop).
>>> Wouldn't the airlines want it open also? At least the on airport portion of the project. I would think they could hold off on the parts of the shuttle that leave the airport. <<<
The Airtrain will not carry a passenger anywhere, on or off the airport, until the report concerning the accident is completed and any problems discovered are corrected.
Tom
"The Airtrain will not carry a passenger anywhere, on or off the airport, until the report concerning the accident is completed and any problems discovered are corrected."
That's obviously true, and obviously right. But I don't believe that the PA will simply abandon the whole nearly-completed project and leave it to rot, even if some on thsi board would like that!
Stranger things have happened. Did anyone believe that the TA would abandon the 2nd Ave line after having built 30 blocks of the line and after the City had been waiting for it for 50 years (at that point)?
I can see the AirTrain structure sitting there unused for years to come, while still being considered an active project by the PA. Even the 2nd Ave project was considered ongoing by the TA until about 1985!
I can think of a piece of IND Second System trackage around the Brooklyn-Queens line that would be just like that. And years from now there might be a discussion if there ever was parts of the SAS route being built in the first place.
At least the abandoned Second System trackage is underground and out of plain sight. The AirTrain structure is there for all to see, in its porkish glory.
And don't forget: money has to be spent maintaining the structure so that concrete chunks don't eventually fall off and smash into passing cars on the Van Wyck.
Oh well...a rain line that was never used...
SAY (Light bulb going off in head): wouldn't it be nice if a few railfans with SERIOUSLY deep pockets could lease the airtrain line just to run vintage RT equipment....all it takes is a dollar and a dream! ;)
Maybe 1227 ... I'd bet the farm that if 1689 went up there, the whole shot would be on the ground in no time. :)
I ain't much of a betting man, but odds are YOU'RE RIGHT! lol!
Its no longer a 'rumor', I watched the 10:00 news on Ch 5 & they said it will not open anytime soon as you said, due to the accident and didn't go any further. I don't know hoe they even built that $2 billion waste, did you see the train it looked like paper when it got into that accident.
Channel 5 is FOX news, trust me, it's rumor. The state is trying to figure out how much it can cut out of its funding for the port Authority (which also means the hole downtown ain't gonna get filled soon either) and AirTrain is just one of MANY Port Authority items that the state would like to get out of owing to the condition of the economy. There's also bridge work, NJT issues and airport security that are high ticket items that the state wants to get out from under as well. It's just that AirTrain seems an easier excuse to make politically owing to that "Death Train" title. Politicos love to find any excuse to make their choices seem "wise" ... and AT seems to fit that bill for now. They're trying to evaluate how much money they MUST pay owing to existing contracts and what they can weasel out of at the moment ...
The State of NY does not fund the Port Authority, the PA has it's own revenues collected from tolls, airport user fees, rents, and PATH fares. They issue bonds against these revenues, the budget woes of NY or NJ have no effect on the Port Authority.
What does effect the Port Authority is fewer travelers through the airports, no more income from the WTC, less PATH riders due to the WTC and Exchange place stations being out of service. These together have lowered the revenues the PA is collecting which means they are going to cut back on a few items, like the twin to the Goethals bridge.
The JFK Airtrain has been paid for already, they issued the bonds back in '98. Permanetly halting the Airtrain would cost more money then running it now, what is going to hold it up is the accident investigation and safety upgrades that might be needed.
The JFK Airtrain will be running in 2003, NY States budget woes have no effect since the States do not contribute any funds.
Yeah, I don't quite get it either, and my eyes glazed over when the discussion turned to the NYS Public Authorities Control Board and something about settlements. But there's some kind of financial action going on that I don't understand, and the basis is the severe loss of revenue by the PA and a lack of will to double or triple tolls to cover the losses. But yes, you're right - all "Public Authorities" are required to maintain their own funding. But something's different this year and the state is trying to diddle whatever it is to cut their losses. Just one of hundreds of things they're looking into.
What the State (and City) are doing is looking to the Port Authority to bail them out of their fiscal crisis, by bailing outthe MTA and NYCTA.
I sorta got that impression, though I don't quite understand what kind of deck chair rearranging is going on - the NYS budget folks though are twirling like I've never seen before, and have been for quite a while. Whatever they're cooking up though, it seems like some very serious stuff - far more than what the politicos have been letting on in the press. What's REALLY strange is that Paturkey continues denying there's a problem while everyone I know that's involved in budget stuff is practically shooting heroin over the workloads they're facing. But Paturkey says everything's JUST fine:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=76241&category=STATE&newsdate=11/25/2002
No subscription required ...
FWIW, a week or so ago I submitted a web comment form to the Port Authority asking about the status of the AirTrain at JFK, and why their website hadn't been updated in ages. Their response was:
Hello Mr. Chui,
Thank you for your recent correspondence through our web site. The Port Authority is committed to conducting a full and thorough investigation, working in cooperation with the National Transportation Safety Board and contractors on the AirTrain project, to determine what led to the derailment on September 27 and what steps must be taken to ensure the safe operation of AirTrain JFK. As you may know, all operational testing on the project which is being conducted by Bombardier has been suspended until further notice. However, construction not involving operational testing is continuing. The date for opening of AirTrain service is not known at this time. We will update the web site as we get more concrete information.
Thank you for your interest in AirTrain JFK,
Mariko Egawa
Priority Capital Programs
I'm sure all work already paid for (or for which funds have been encumbered) will proceed ... after all, stopping stuff you have to pay for would be literally throwing it away ... apparently whatever's going on behind the scenes has only been set into motion in the last couple of days from what I hear and NO decisions one way or another have been *officially* made as yet. PANYNJ is a slightly different animal than the two states themselves ...
Recently I have seen much talk of an average system fare, $1.06 is the number being bandied about. What I would like to know is does this figure include RFMs and the like, does anyone know?
Peace,
ANDE
They are probably counting every kind of fare in the mix and maybe some fare beaters or fareboxes/turnstiles out of service.
e.g. local unlimited are rated at .8686 vs. 1.50
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DV“B´:IN#ü:üa°Új€K¨-+%c«CÀÅN£°¯¯çÏb¿Qƒ'IYƯâ0`n¦̀ôé̀H}E˜~ê“( áAÉƠ¦J%M`F"̀ß:̀íÓ:¢¬ÇÊÓB ưtO¥O©¼̉-*¤Evj„¹ö›`•RR;ở[â₫WLæbÁÇ.pjÇÛi/A 7AKn%ßÍÖæăNÿU¯ÔÚ5»`3”½và€—øµ‘5}^¿â‰;#8k’G}Ă½iUĂ»¿,>buÍÓ‰ Ÿ0U™Ơ*6îëi‹”̉È’–\wü£©–DT>ß 4¾öbD›.øåöie µu/R™ 71ù0Sºj ¯ vAös%́¯ ^ßÿÖ•Å3ÈD¶̀ i‚‰àu ’-j?âækÏCË¡œÔ ¤]́½4¯3°Ï2£ºÅ+ #Úlª̣ñ…M7hÆ k~6˯ö£QÅ£sƒ|‘9ÅÁDm/o¼Æ4Ss5ÀpƯN¨ ! Äô™6›¯9WÁï‡â¤ ưcyƒÏ3¬¤ºÏÈ‚́›@Ÿ,¶âèX‘‚«¦N¿í™¢Nê™#u]±¤©ÿNè'<ˆ`4Ù"Ưºé@x…x=́™HR :å-4qz#>³ YÓúÄ:eIM ï®ï…œ¥£‚9E*‰ ”8¸%VWh̃Y`‹Dgù¥Q “ùßè̀¤iñp y—÷°çvÓ#Qx`*w°órÀˆ Â*áfq₫r8QưaÑKÔº’Iq;ó! Ó›Q¹¾̀RlØÚă:K~ơä¡#M~½<7ñ– +Tâ—=Mº’?Îïû¥+"¸YqD×Ôƒ´ñ•aWY,™Ÿ&lB¿Ô¯¹³¨jyxƯ‹»4bØd$oqJ6S/.Kbmƒùö¶aơÜè0 ªyöR©w ®˜ơq ̉¸¡èó˜₫¥¸dúËO7Đ5eqVˆ§΅c"³ÿ¥±n ²̃;µˆ¨ÎÜo;Gn£Ç –ĆæÏOqÓ*̣Ç%kÜÚ@§̀ˆ—+ù'L[¦üí9˜G '×$TwÔßœVµ\yî™;±‰Ú…!äXë/ļ¸²\[»@Y´>!¤Ar=‚;>†̀TƠomÅuïºJ@tq ³€©¨^/IvªLV% 9ưyưgUŸæé§Z‚ơK5bơó¢# d*ÿ¶Xs_˜ÙB+cö±ÍÆô6öÙ`sy¡È-™8îxâ:ƒ#ĐY«P¹¸W&?]tâ +¸f–ă6́‘» ·Å’ˆåLMn1}Ui^…h…OÀuâ¬úxPEj¨—*4e¥æ"˦إøæù)qĦӃ!±ub…*ó*„†™ Ó@̃˜&̃Û§œ®·̉Ä=£j ˆ×€Ü|… ±¿€øªđ?\Ç >ŸŸ6̉vÛwÑ̀w•¨µØ-”Í̃ß*C3öpȃ„ù”ÜË®„ŸÉMúÈT·Ä7WTstt¸ t₫ш;êqXíBËt¼‰8ñçKóe&£˜5cE ØëºY¦üNÄ[ Yñ±Lû=’AX‰¹È»xöfv&· /ơñøû‰?q½&„²#Ïlđ»2̣– ƒ©u)탂`£ m’Óöƒ Ă$¢îĐuñP1"Ê›¾L AÙS[¤ưâ#y߃8K¯TPÁ{8ư¶~V_–ˆÑç…r]%Ă°ç*ô Ú›Œø]ú|HPu#ÏüîCùvjLđX<·ŒYÛ†èWĐo@4c#tT2)[vêÄuđ¨Qµ̉}¡;ú &<À''™W”KjŸ“ÔMq ¸ư!$ ‘%#̣~%m,ôáăXóg SƯÙ¸9,rc¶YỌ́dÙ¡,œh5¬<ØnF† ¢«„|’¦¼³á¸ÀÙM·ÖUós¿,rơ?¥›gâR@L ¶OƠĐƒµpwR…y¸:«4ú(ăê; AHà³ßmn·é?g ‘ æ¾×MÉ´₫Lm ˆ”iG9ƒêorƠy3+- ÇEº]Ÿ3†²¿ÄÊ )¨cĂàüpQîW̃¡=gg¯/N7₫fÀưF ̃<ÉƯîCĂ¯DÊÄ-÷mn†Gª²ûMo&³€H́çöB7ÓÜ'rØ‘)íɦ'́ ³6ȯÀ$” Êè4¥t aÿü:ªU·sä]è¶98E}ÀƈīxÅieØÈ̀W•ĂCÿ7߶d–…°Ö3¿ ›m̀#(ú CÇô4OĂÑm|À ½öû•…ÊbÚ5â¶Pÿ_r÷ºñç÷¢añ‰ Z уÄŸ2ÔĂ
What is going on?
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Great, I can't even get in. Not enough bandwidth to get in? Really poorly planned IMO. If it's going to have this much 'action', be prepared.
Metro Train Hits, Kills Woman
* Woman Crossed Tracks, Trying To Catch Another Train
Los Angeles BLUE LINE
MTA los angeles california
Story Nov 22, 2002 2:59 pm US/Pacific
(AP) (LOS ANGELES) A Metro Blue Line train struck and killed a woman Friday as she ran across the tracks near the San Pedro station, authorities said.
Paramedics pronounced the woman dead at the scene. Her name was not immediately released pending notification of her family.
The accident remained under investigation but police said it appeared the woman was trying to catch the southbound commuter train as it pulled into the station shortly after 7:30 a.m.
"She may have been a little late. She saw the train coming, ran diagonally across the tracks ... was struck by the train and run over," Sgt. Kevin Custard said.
Here in Baltimore we have a very pesky person who is well known as a problem, both with the Museum, and with the MTA. An MTA Police Leutenant once commented that "If you wear a uniform, you know him."
His mother was hit and dragged by an LRV. She worked at a glass factory just south of and across the tracks from the Westport stop.
She got off a southbound car, crossed the tracks at an improper point (diagonal to the tracks at the end of the platform) and was hit and dragged by a northbound. She later died in the Shock-Truama section University Hospital, and became the first fatality on the Light Rail. The word was passed to the MTA and BSM within an hour, considering who she was the mother of.
I'm not kidding.
Moral of this and your story is: never challange an LRV. You WILL lose.
the next accident happened the next night ! ...I agree with you mr lawerence these folks are fools thinking thier
small compact car can compete with a LRV LOS ANGELES BLUE LINE RAIL TRANSIT CAR !!
fortunately for all nobody got killed this time !! A horrible sight to see on the TV news last night here .......
the next accident happened the next night ! ...I agree with you sir these folks are fools thinking thier
small compact car can compete with a LRV LOS ANGELES BLUE LINE RAIL TRANSIT CAR !!
fortunately for all nobody got killed this time !! A horrible sight to see on the TV news last night here .......
...then howcome they can afford to run those stupid TV commercials. Totally uneeded, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
TA is only broke when in contract talks with TWU.
At one point, having ads describing the improvements brought about by the Capital Program was a condition the State Legislature set up for approving the program (so people would know what they were getting for their money). Perhaps that is still in force. Oh -- and it's MTA doing the ads, not NYC Transit.
David
Expect that to be trimmed soon, election's over. I'm sure you're wise enough to know those ads weren't "educational." :)
I am indeed, but I noticed that they, along with the state's Health Plus ads, didn't cease immediately following Election Day -- I had expencted them to mysteriously disappear, but they didn't.
David
Natch, wouldn't want it to be TOO obvious. There's still ads about the baseball games at Joe Bruno's baseball stadium running up here. :)
I don't know about that. I have seen a new ad this week related to Downtown...it shows all 17 lines that can get you there. -Nick
I got one better. If the TA is broke, how can they purchase 1,700 subway cars at approximately 1 billion price tag?
Keith, technically they have already be 'paid for', i.e., money had been allocated for their purchase from last year's budget.
Oh come on Doug. This was just a last ditch effort save the R38s & R40s. Can't hate a guy for trying. LOL.
Yeah, I know ya love the old cars...so does this old softee...LOL!
Is it just me or did the old cars really have more class and character than the new ones? That is my impression. Some of the cars today seem indistinguishable from each other. I'm not an expert on different cars but I could always tell the B's from the D's from the Lov V's from the R1's. I got a few mixed up last month and had to be corrected by Wayne, Steve, and Sparky. And yes, nothing to me compares to the Triplex cars of yore.
PS---I had to get up and look up indistinguishable to be sure it was an a and not an i. It turned out I was right but I wouldn't have even the garage on that. Old age creeping up, I guess. And I can remember when I used to win spelling bees as a kid.
You are confusing capital money (new cars) for everyday operational expenses.
Although the MTA stated that a good portion of the budget deficit was related to paying service (interest) on bonds used for capitol improvements.
Two things:
1. The hole is in next year's budget and in projections for future years, not in this year's budget. Right now (as of September 30), NYCT is actually $42 million BETTER than budget. Even if that holds through the end of the year and the money is rolled over, next year will still be an estimated $600 million plus in the red.
2. While there is a pay-as-you-go component to NYCT's capital budget (funded directly out of the operating budget), most of the capital program is financed through federal/state/city grants and MTA bonds. Of course, the bonds ARE backed by fares, and debt service is a component of the operating budget. However, the debt service plus the pay-as-you-go contribution does not equal the total projected deficit, and as far as the debt service goes it's either pay up, default (not bloody likely), or refinance (which has already been done to some degree).
David
1. The hole is in next year's budget and in projections for future years, not in this year's budget. Right now (as of September 30), NYCT is actually $42 million BETTER than budget. Even if that holds through the end of the year and the money is rolled over, next year will still be an estimated $600 million plus in the red.
Wasn't the TA supposed to be hundreds of millions in the red this year too? Also interesting to note that the 42 million has increased from 33 million earlier, meaning that they are continuing to operate at a profit. Why does it seem that as soon as the clock strikes 12 on new year's eve that they will be operating in the red? Please correct me if i'm wrong, thanx.
The new subway cars will cheaper to operate and maintain then older cars
will allow automatic train operation in the futer.
Are paid in part by FEDERAL MONEY
Are purchaced with Bonds thus do not need to be paid now
The TA needs to reduce it's sky high labor costs by automating operations whereever possible. A prediction. The TA will reduce it's labor force by 20% over the next ten year. The new subway cars will help in this effort
I agree. They also have advertising on the radio and it runs pretty often. Who knows, maybe the MTA's budget is not as strained as they say it is.
If the TA is Broke....why not hold a TELETHON to raise some funds for the poor place.
I say they could make a killing by selling off all the old enamel station signs, strap handles, fare boxes, roll signs and related items that are stored for no apparent reason in the Transit Museum archives.
Why I could even envision heypaul getting all the necessary components to complete an entire R-9 unit in his pad. :)
I think it's an idea who's time has come! The NYCT Telethon could be hosted by the likes of Buddy Hackett (much like the MD Labor Day Teletons which are also hosted by a has-been comedian).
Just finished watching "Spider-Man" on DVD (yeah, I know, where have I been?). It was a very good movie, but something was bothering me. Something was very wrong.
And then I realized what it was.
The movie states that Peter Parker lived in Forest Hills, Queens. In one scene where they show him running alongside a school bus, they also show in the background a #7 redbird train running on the viaduct along Queens Blvd.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but Forest Hills is nowhere near where the 7 runs in Queens on the viaduct. I think that area is known as Sunnyside.
Am I correct?
That's True..
But only NYers and especially Queens people know that...
[That's True.. But only NYers and especially Queens people know that...]
More to the point: only New Yorkers know, and only (some) Queens people care!
[In one scene where they show him running alongside a school bus, they also show in the background a #7 redbird train running on the viaduct along Queens Blvd.]
Is that a REAL redbird on the REAL #7 travelong on the REAL Queens Blvd Viaduct? Or is it another mocked-up CTA stand-in?
That can only be a Redbird on the 7. That or else a heck of a job with a Digital processor. Chicago has NOTHING that even looks like a Redbird, and I've never seen a structure like that in chicago, most of it seems to be just regular Iron construction els.
I think Hollywood filmed some background scenes in Queens then put Spidey into the footage in Hollywood. Then the director who probably lives in Hollywood dicated that the scene start in Forest Hills and Spidey followed the school bus all the way to the Queens Blvd viaduct.
It was all a scene only Queens residents would notice was far fetched.
It was all a scene only Queens residents would notice was far fetched.
True, and only railfans would even care that it is not accurate, so that is why Hollywood doesn't really care if it is 100% accurate.
I actually just saw it recently also.
When Parker is running towards the bus on the background the World Series train is running in the background (forget if it's the full set or some of the broken parts).
Also when Dunst tells the bus driver that Parker's been running since Woodhaven Blvd, I was laughing thinking how good his stamina must be running from Woodhaven to Sunnyside
=)
Does anyone have any idea what these stupid kids are using to scrawl these completely stupid-looking faces and tags on the windows of trains and buses? I mean I know it is not spraypaint, but whatever it is it is hard to get out, sometimes is cannot come out completely at all. At least in the 70s and 80s they tagged things on the trains, some of which actually looked like good art talent, nowadays they look like penscribble on paper or some stupid looking face (i.e. M line equipment with these faces drawn on the door glass that look like bowling pins with eyes and a nose.....irritatingly stupid-looking >:-( ). I would like to catch and whip a few of these little runts if I see them ever doing that stupidness on my train!! Insult to injury I would use a permanent black marker and scrawl "MTA WUZ HERE!!" on their foreheads as a reminder as to the penalty for getting caught doing vandalism.
Keys or sharpie markers
Sometimes they also use scratching rocks they could buy and in some instances, they use pocket knives and razors[not shaving razors].
Most likely latch-key kids using their keys....much like they'll do to someone's paint job. :(
Insult to injury I would use a permanent black marker and scrawl "MTA WUZ HERE!!" on their foreheads as a reminder as to the penalty for getting caught doing vandalism.
Even permanent marker can be removed with enough effort.
Branding, on the other hand ...
Branding!!!!OOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! I LIKE IT!!!!!!!! :~)
If you are talking about a milky white appearance, it is probably glass etch. I read it is dangerous to contact when wet, it causes vapors and skin damage when in contact with skin. Any scratching in safety glass was done with glass cutters, diamond rings or other sharp objects. If Tuffak is still used, anything goes.
Acid, the stuff used to etch automobile VIN numbers on the glass to ID parts to cut down on stolen cars taken apart in chop shops.
>>> I would like to catch and whip a few of these little runts if I see them ever doing that stupidness on my train!! Insult to injury I would use a permanent black marker and scrawl "MTA WUZ HERE!!" on their foreheads as a reminder as to the penalty for getting caught doing vandalism. <<<
Nice thought, but the satisfaction would not be worth the loss of your job, and possible criminal conviction.
Tom
It seems these kids who were doing those faces were disrupting the 1607 M three days in a row last week. I was caught on the W behind it. The first day, it was stuck over the switch into 36th St. I stopped at the portal and was examining the tracks leading to the street. (they pass under 4th Av. and the BQE, but appear to be o the same grade as 3rd. Av. So I guess 3rd is lower than 4th. But from the turnout, it appears the tracks pass under two elevated roads. The second day, it was at 9th Av. and someone demanding the police was refusing to go up to the booth where they were waiting; insisting they came down to the train. Got a nice express run in Astoria from the delay though! Then the 3rd day, it was stopped all the way in 36th, and I passed it and saw where they drew those silly faces with that chemical foam.
Insult to injury I would use a permanent black marker and scrawl "MTA WUZ HERE!!" on their foreheads as a reminder as to the penalty for getting caught doing vandalism.
LOL!
I took HBLR yesterday and must say the ticket purchasing/validation is a real hassle, especially in Hoboken.
I was wondering if NJT has considered using a mobile phone (SMS) as a method of payment, I know of it being implemented in Estonia and Finland with great succsess.
Arti
I just saw a part of this on the Discovery Channel a few mintues ago.
It's really interesting how the contractor's had to dig and work very hard to make it all happen.They said that the most difficult part was keeping the existing Queens Blvd. structure in tact so that it wouldn't come crashing down on them while they were working.Did anyone here know that they were gonna put a program about the 63rd St. Tunnel?
I also saw this program last year... It had several features on different tunnels around the world... One segment described the challenges in building the Queens Blvd./63rd Street Connector... Another segment detailed TBMs used in Japan... I justified the extra money I spend on digital cable each moth.
George Devine, Jr.
San Francisco, Ca
In the past few months ive noticed that A LOT of (Q) trains had smashed windows and doors, i take it every day and usually 4 days a week i see a smashed window
It's been a rough year for schoolkid vandalism. Even with a cop or cops on the train, you can't have them in every car of every train. There have been lots of PM W and M train delays lately. Maybe the kids are pissed off about the extra 20 minutes a day in school and are taking it out on the trains. This is very disillusioning to the train crews.
There is Midwood High School along the Brighton Line, so that could be the result of smashed windows there. Remember the D trains that ran along Brighton had the same thing where it was either smashed windows, or scratchitti.
There are a few high schools along the Brighton.
Midwood, Murrow:):),Madison, Grady, Lincoln, Erasmus, Prospect Heights(via the Franklin Shuttle), and Clara Barton(via Franklin Shuttle).
Also Bklyn Tech.
How about the F? My wife is interested in sending my kid to Jr. High down along the F line at IS 228. How do those kids act PM?
You must be thinking of Murrow. Midwood is on Bedford Avenue near Brooklyn College. But Midwood's athletic field is across Avenue L from Murrow!
People call it Midwood all the time because the athletic field next to Murrow says MIDWOOD FIELD so they think it is Midwood HS.
hey everybody.... I'm kinda sick of AOL now... it's giving me nothing but trouble.... so IM changing my handle[and service]to MSN.[do you hear me ''kirk''? you should be proud of me] I will no longer go by the name ''love 9400''. Now its just ''edwards''. catch you later....
Heh. Going underground, eh? But whoa ... MSN? MAN! Out of the pan, into the fire, into the inner sanctum of evil itself, BILLYWORLD. Man, you can get you dialup right here in town, a neck that's handy for the grabbing that ain't Microsoft itself ... I mean, MSN is the AntiAOL. Billy and Stevie Case, locked in the duel of death. My sympathies, man.
MSN service is pretty good. It does not have all the quirks that AOL has, although I never use their MSN Explorer instead of Internet Explorer.
MSN's backbone is Qwest and Worldcon. I suppose my objection (aside from Microsoft) is that the MSN service is a data-gathering service as well, much like those supermarket discount cards. It's completely offtopic for here, but I have numerous personal experiences with the abuses Microsoft does with the data they collect, and no other provider (passport) collects so much data that they can do personal damage with. For me, NO WAY ...
Please tell me what your new handle is going to be. Thank you.
#3 West End Jeff
UMMM,,,he already has.
Peace.
ANDEE
Hey I got one for you guys out there and maybe you can help. I need a real consensus or at least a lot of opinions. I do like my handle but I have been thinking of bringing it up to date by changing it to N Sea Beach Fred instead of #4. Though I'm big on nostalgia and would like to keep my handle due to my shirts and hats having that insignia I have had Subtalkers who haven't had a clue that the Sea Beach once carried a number instead of a letter. What do you guys think of me changing my handle?
No, keep it as it is.
Peace,
ANDEE
It should be your decision and yours alone. If you like your handle, keep it. If nothing else, it gets attention. I've had scores of people stop me and ask what my license plates mean. Only one person has figured it out, and he was a Columbia grad.
What does AOL or MSN have to do with your Subtalk handle?
You should have went with Earthlink :-)
EARTHLINK DSL IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE... SUBTALK!
EARTHLINK DSL IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE... SUBTALK!
I can vouch for that - I've had it a bit over a year now - no complaints!!!
Optimum Online puts them ALL to shame.
Peace,
ANDEE
Joe Bruno was just on the morning news, announcing that TELEGRAPH service will soon be coming to the Capit-hole district! Dits and Dahs! Wow! Can't WAIT! Damned ponies have been falling over with all the spam they've been carrying lately. :)
Just in case people wondered about why there's horse-racing at Saratoga in the summertime - it's because the legislature's on vacation during "racing season" still not having done the budget, and with the legislators away, there's a serious decline in the need for Pony Express service upstate, so the horses are available to entertain tourists at the race track during the legislative hiatus and lack of activity. Since Pony Express horses (which carry our "tell-a-communications" up here) need exercise, the race track allows that, plus brings in valuable revenue ... as a result, we might actually get telegraph service here, as long as the string remains moist. :)
I see where you're getting at, but you pretty much killed it. In moderation, fair Selly. ;-)
In the past few months ive noticed that A LOT of (Q) trains had smashed windows and doors, i take it every day and usually 4 days a week i see a smashed window
What high schools does the Q goes by?
See my previous post.
Edward R. Murrow on the Brighton line, though that doesn't necessarily mean that's where the problem is coming from.
Did anyone catch the show "Behind Closed Doors With Joan Lunden"? tonight on A&E? I didn't :( My grandmother and a friend both saw it, but I didn't. I heard it was good. Showed the Coney Island shops and the "secret" money counting rooms.
--Brian
It's that counting room that makes sure Clerks give in every last cent they made for the TA during an 8 hour shift. If the money Clerks give is short, they are held accountable.
-Stef
I didn't see it last night, but I did see it a few months back. It was very interesting.
I saw it and taped it a while back... but that was when it first aired (a bit over a year ago).
I also taped it when it first aired a year ago. Enjoyable, except I dont think Joan Lunden could get any "blonder"--I think at one point when she was in the simulator she mentioned something about the lack of a steering wheel (or something to that effect) :)
How many people were afraid she might drop the R-32 when she operated the lift at CI yard? :D
One poignant moment--I think it aired shortly after 9/11, though it was obviously taped before that. At one point, Joan came out of a subway station and right behind her were the WTC towers in all their glory. Kinda painful to see at the time :(
Also saw it a couple of months ago. Very enjoyable.
Ok 7101-7105 made it to E 180 YD Saturday night. Also 6926-30 doing testing on the Dyre Line.
6906-10 are on the way.....
-Stef
Just saw those passing over Myrtle Ave. on the bay Ridge line around 11. (Told the bus driver "I wish there was a subway there!)
Heh. That was 6906-10 in transit to Linden Yard. I would love to ride one of those transfers. Too bad Station Agents don't get special treatment. I want my R-142!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Speaking of which, I was greeted by a trio of yellow jackets taking infant R-142s (6906-10) for a ride this evening at 2100 Hours.
-Stef
Also 7086-90 is doing road testing or burn test tonight.
They are out on the road with 6916-20.
-Stef
I've been greeted by a certain C/R who has been tooting his horn at me. I get a round trip toot for my troubles. Me thinks he enjoys tooting his horn. LOL!!!
-Stef
I wonder who that "Transit Professional" may be????
Can't be you. I found the Transit Professional formerly known as Mr R46 on my way home. The name is trademarked :-)
Eric & Harry have left the building :-(
This past Thursday I ran into Stef the consumate Station Agent as he was puling his wheels at 42nd St/8th Ave (didn't get the booth number >G<). Very sharp and dapper in his uniform, way to go Stef!
Thank You, Thank You!
-Stef
Yeah, but when are we gonna see Stef in uniform up at Branford...that's what inquiring minds want to know....lol..
This Branford Supervisor has seen him in his Penguin Suit on site,
but get's agitated when assigned to Avenue 'L'. >G<
;-) Sparky
Stop! You'll get Mr. Dispatcher started. Then I'll be drafted to booth duty at Avenue L. LOL! I'll only do it if I can sell MetroCards. Geez.
-Stef
And then only at rush hour! :)
This Branford Supervisor has seen him in his Penguin Suit on site,
but get's agitated when assigned to Avenue 'L'. >G<
;-) Sparky
My penguin suit? Golly.
Do I take dips in the Arctic waters?!?
You give me a metrocard machine, and I'll sell cards. Heh.
-Stef
And for my troubles, I'd request acquiring one of NYCT's modern booths with all the amenities, fit for a king. A wooden booth? What is that? Oh, it's before my time.
-Stef
TA's modern booth? I've been in a few of those things lately. The best way to sit comfortably in there is to put the seat on its lowest setting. Reminds me of a Japanese Restautant.
Stef,
When you reach my number of years, maybe then BERA, would consider
acquiring a "Metal Booth". Should it be padded?
;-) Sparky
Yes!
Heh. It'll be my rubber room for a nut like me.
-Stef
Just get him the booth from the Wall street station on the downtown 4/5 - wooden facade covering a modern booth.
I was in there a few weeks ago. Interesting! It's also one of the few places that still has the old slam gate (the old style sprung service gate). The booth's appearance made me feel like I was in another place, another time.
-Stef
Just don't put your MetroCard in the ticket chooper!
LOL!
I can think of a few ways to dispose of MetroCards. Chopping them up seems like a good idea. Perhaps we can discourage swiping?
-Stef
Just remember to keep the booth door closed when a n/b train comes in.
I always wondered what the reasoning is behind that. Any thoughts?
-Stef
When the booth door is open the sensor can detect the arcs and sparks coming from the 3rd rail and set off the halon.
Say what you will about wooden booths, but if the coal train is late, you can start dismantling the board and throw it into the Franklin stove and keep warm in there until the coal train arrives. It's been done. :)
Why of course! BERA members have been known to work in frigid weather. Brrrrrrrrrrr.
-Stef
I'd rather work in cold than August. And working on Arnines in winter wasn't so terrible if there's watts for the seats. They could throw heat like there was no tomorrow. Except in the cabs. :)
Wayne says the heat would come on when it wasn't needed, say during the summer months.
It wouldn't if the breakers were actually OFF. Some of them had a nasty habit of breaking in the "on" position. Three breakers in the cab for each pair of seats, three chances to win ... or lose. Cab heat was on a separate circuit and NEVER worked. :)
>>>"My penguin suit?"<<<
If you're an operating member of a "Trolley Museum" serving the
public in a distinguishable garb YOU ARE A PENGUIN.
;-) Sparky
More likely a 'Good Shepard' than a 'Transit Professional'....LOL!
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_112302_budget.html
(New York-WABC, November 23, 2002) — During a rare Saturday meeting, the city council created a budget that will pinch, but perhaps not as much as the Mayor's budget. Property taxes will go up 18 percent instead of 25. And several city firehouses have been saved. Lauren Glassberg reports the story.
Watch the Story
There is a $1 billion dollar budget gap for the fiscal year ending June 30th. The two key ways to solve the city's budget crisis is by raising revenue and cutting spending. On Saturday, the city council spent several hours hammering out an agreement with the Mayor. However, it won't be without pain.
In other parts of the city on Saturday, several rallies to support firehouses took place. One rally took place outside Engine Company 293 in Woodhaven and another in Harlem at Engine Company 36. Both Engine Companies were two of eight firehouse that were slated to close to save the city $2.5 million. Some city officials have said that the firehouses as redundant because they are located too close to other firehouses. But many who live in these communities disagree.
A similar cuts are happening in education. Pink slips have already gone out to education administrators, eventually about 600 will be let go. Teachers,however, will be untouched by the cuts.
Joel Klein, NYC Schools Chancellor: "We purposely took the hit at central headquarters precisely because we don't want effect what is going on in the school. That's the whole point."
While service cuts save cash, the Mayor wanted a 25 percent property tax increase to generate cash. That proposal generated town hall meetings throughout the city, and fear among homeowners.
Al Decastro, Homeowner: "This is a community of senior citizens primarily who own homes...and if the taxes are increased that high...homeowners will possibly lose their homes."
While residents had heated discussions, council members spent the afternoon trying to figure out just how high they would go on an increase in property tax.
Gifford Miller, Council Speaker (D): "This is in our opinion the worst fiscal crisis...certainly in raw dollars...that the city has ever faced."
Ultimately, that crisis warranted an 18 percent increase, according to the council speaker, effective Jan. 1st.
Gifford Miller, Council Speaker (D): "When you are hemorrhaging money, you have to take painful measures. So we believe that this property tax increase is the lowest that we can go, while still protecting the residents of the State of New York, addressing the budget gap, and being able to freeze this rate and hold it there."
The city council is going to go ahead with the Mayor's plan to cut city spending by $840 million. But some planned cuts have been restored such as firehouses, CUNY staff, child services and senior meals services.
As for the 18 percent property tax increase, the Mayor is expected to sign it by midweek. But the city is still not in the clear. Next year's budget gap is expected to be 6.4 billion.
>>>The city council is going to go ahead with the Mayor's plan to cut city spending by $840 million. But some planned cuts have been restored such as firehouses, CUNY staff, child services and senior meals services.<<<
COMMENTS to the city counsils
THATS IT? What about us, the commuters should'nt we deserve a break? HELLLO!..I mean, we have to choose between "fare increased to $2.00" and "reduced services for $1.75 fare"? Its obviously that we gonna spent little extra on our living expense. But pay extra on our commuting expense is too much! Its great that some planned cuts have been restored such as firehouses, CUNY staff, child services and senior meals services. What about MTA? Shouldn't some that leftover extra money also saved the MTA instead having us choosing over those stupid plan. This really F***** Up! Excuse my french.
>>> What about MTA? Shouldn't some that leftover extra money also saved the MTA instead having us choosing over those stupid plan <<<
How many times does it have to be said? The MTA is a State agency. Bloomberg's budget is the City budget. They are not interchangeable. But both the city and state are broke.
Tom
Not only that, there IS no leftover money large enough to help the MTA. Do you think that a ONE-TIME shot in the budget cures a deficit. Not by any means, especially when they'll be more cuts NEXT year.
>>> What about MTA? Shouldn't some that leftover extra money also saved the MTA instead having us choosing over those stupid plan <<<
How many times does it have to be said? The MTA is a State agency. Bloomberg's budget is the City budget. They are not interchangeable. But both the city and state are broke.
Tom
Not only that, there IS no leftover money large enough to help the MTA. Do you think that a ONE-TIME shot in the budget cures a deficit. Not by any means, especially when they'll be more cuts NEXT year.
does anybody have one. is 8260 still the last car received.
I dunno but the highest I've seen in service was 8248.
The TTC's new Sheppard subway opened for regular service this morning. I managed to change my original plans to see it midday and went out with a friend of mine who also has a night shift to Don Mills and rode and photographed the first train. We also photographed trains in all the stations along the line, a bus in one of the stations and a Yonge train at Sheppard. Hopefully the slides turn out well.
-Robert King
Robert King:
Details please. (My high school's English teacher's favorite phrase to elicit elaboration.) Where does the Sheppard Subway start and end and to what does it connect? It's been a few years since I've been to Toronto, and I need to catch up.
George, the Sheppard subway starts from a connection with the Spadina line at Sheppard (now Sheppard-Yonge) and proceeds east, with stations named Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, and Don Mills.
Here's a link to a .pdf file of the TTC brochure announcing the new line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hate to knitpick, my good man, but I would call that a connection with the "Yonge" line, not the "Spadina" line. Even though the line in its entirety is referred to as the "Yonge-University-Spadina" line, any section along Yonge Street is usually referred to as just the "Yonge Street Line".
True... but that's what the TTC website called it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some people are already nitpicking through the new Rider's Guide that has the Sheppard line shown for errors...
-Robert King
What cars will be used for the new line?
Hey Rob,
We were both on the same train!!! I was the one up front who asked the operator if I could take a picture of the cab (and she allowed me, the picture turned out OK)... I didn't think to look for anyone from Subtalk or the Canadian Public Transit Discussion Board (do you post there as well?). Oh well, maybe next time...
Will anybody be posting photographs anywhere soon??
The AirTrain was a poorly-designed and unneeded boondoggle that only served to fatten the wallets of the contractors favored by the Port Authority. Now that the opening of the system has been delayed indefinitely (like the 2nd Ave line?), motorists on the Van Wyck Expressway and the thousands of people who live in south Queens along that highway can enjoy their daily view of that huge concrete and steel tribute to stupidity and greed of the PA and the State. Certainly the PA and the State spent millions, if not billions, getting to this point and now who knows when (if?) the system will be used.
If the State was really interested in saving money, they could have reactivated the Far Rock LIRR line and used that as the airport rail route. Yes, it needs a lot of restoration, but it certainly could have been done for less than AirTrain cost. Yes, you would have had problems with NIMBYs but the truth is that the route is already owned by the City and no condemnation of land is needed. If I recall correctly, the City bought the whole route south of the main line from the LIRR in 1950 and simply abandoned it after 1962. With the City in fiscal straits, I'm sure Bloomy and co. would have been happy to unload it for a reasonable sum or perhaps take a cut of the fee for its use.
I admit, there would be logistical problems with the line, but it would not have been as expensive as AirTrain, would have been less disruptive to a major highway and would not have become an eyesore to Queens residents. It would have provided commuters with a TRUE one-seat ride to JFK, which AirTrain will never provide.
I predict that AirTrain will go down as another example of horrid municipal bungling that enriched special interests and served no one.
The Port Authority proposed the Far Rockway line to JFK route originally back in '97, the City council and Giulianni (who was running for re-election) voted down that option.
So the Port Authority went with the next best option, the ROW above the Van Wyck.
Even if they went with the Far Rockaway line they would not be able to offer any service to anyone but airport travelers, the EWR and JFK Airtrains are being built with airport improvement funds money (that $5 dollar surcharge on airline tickets). The airport improvement money can only be used for airport and airport related imporvements.
Restoring a rail line with stations other that JFK, Jamaica or NY Penn would have been forbiden.
"Restoring a rail line with stations other that JFK, Jamaica or NY Penn would have been forbiden."
The reason it would have been forbidden is due to an FAA or other Federal law prohibiting the use of airport trust fund money (which paid for projects like Airtrain) to subsidize off-airport interest, including those of metropolitan area commuters.
The only reason Airtrain to Kennedy was constructed was as a result of what I consider legitimate complaints from New York airport users that a light rail system was being built at what they considered third-place Newark Airport at the expense of Kennedy and LaGuardia. That action cemented their perception that the PANYNJ is favoring Jersey over New York.
While the prohibition makes sense on the outside, Phillip K. Howard discusses in "The Death of Common Sense" that the law was not written with the unique transportation needs of New York City in mind. Other locales would have no difficulty constructing an exclusive system that doesn't commingle commuter trips because commuter infrastructure either doesn't exist or new and exclusive airport project won't interfere with what little commuter infrastructure there is. Worse, New York, instead of "pounding on the table" to get the law amended so that the best possible use of the money could be determined, it just sheepishly went along with the law, because it was, in fact, the law.
So, as I see it Airtrain was the result of complaints being answered the only way they could. In the end, more complaints are going to be registered because of the solution's ineffectiveness, but blame cannot be attributed to the Port Authority, or the Federal government. If anything, blame should be placed on New York's lazy politicians who don't have the foresight to look out for even their own best interests.
>>they could have reactivated the Far Rock LIRR line and used that as the airport rail route<<
The Far Rockaway Branch is on the Rockaway peninsula. The Rockaway Beach line is the abandoned ROW you must be referring to. Please don't mix up the two.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>>.... has been delayed indefinitely (like the 2nd Ave line?),<<<
Not like the 2nd avenue line at all. At least the damn thing is built.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree with you fully that the AirTrain is nothing more than a PORK barrel. For goodness sakes they could have extended the "A" train to J.F.K. and they could have restored the Far Rockaway branch of the L.I.R.R. at a reasonable cost, but no, they must build AirTrain. They could also extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia and have a quick connection from midtown Manhattan to LaGuardia airport, but they're to stupid to do this. Meanwhile, New York City is perhaps the only world class city without a direct rapid transit or rail connection to an airport from the downtown area.
#3 West End Jeff
For goodness sakes they could have extended the "A" train to J.F.K. and they could have restored the Far Rockaway branch of the L.I.R.R. at a reasonable cost,
I believe that this should still be done.
>>>>For goodness sakes they could have extended the "A" train to J.F.K. and they could have restored the Far Rockaway branch of the L.I.R.R. at a reasonable cost,<<<<
>>>>I believe that this should still be done.<<<<
It should be done. I don't think that AirTrain will be any good in the long run. The subway is already t here and all they need to do is to extend it.
#3 West End Jeff
Remember that the Port Authority manages the airports, so they would not want a project that is handled by an "outside" agency. Extending existing transit rail lines to the airports will never happen as long as this attitude by the PA prevails.
One thing that the AirTrain does not address at all is the transportation of freight in and out of JFK. The only way now is trucks that go into/out of JFK via the Van Wyck, or Conduit Blvd.
If you travel on any of these roads, you can see why this has to be considered and acted upon now if not earlier.
Why the old Rockaway branch wasn't re-activated and upgraded for passenger and freight operations is beyond me.
"Why the old Rockaway branch wasn't re-activated and upgraded for passenger and freight operations is beyond me."
City council opposition, and Giulianni's indifference.
The Port Authority had that as their first build option, the Van Wyck was plan B.
Since only certain sets of R142s have the updated announcements, what happens if the following consist is sent out of the yard (fictional car numbers)
N-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-S
Cars 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 have the updated announcements. Cars 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 do not. What will happen?
1. Cars 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 make the updated announcements, while 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 do not.
2. All cars make the announcements that the lead car would make (updated northbound, old southbound)
3. All cars make the announcements of the conductor's car (updated southbound, old northbound)
4. Automated announcements turned off, manual announcements
5. None of the above, something else
Do any of our A Division C/Rs or T/Os know the answer? I'd be interested in finding out the answer.
Ok I found out the answer last week on the No.6 Line. Right now only 1 set has updated announcments on the #6 Line 7651-7660. Well the other day I had 7656-60/7211-15. 7211-15 still has old announcements. It turned out 7656-60 went back to playing old announcements so every car said the same thing.
Thanks. Which car was the lead car and which car were you in?
I had the same train for two trips so I was in both. Just think of it that was my train for about 4 HRS.
Also, 7651-7655 was mated with 7426-7430 the other day.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Yesterday I noticed that McDonald Avenue at and around Bay Parkway has four pavement milling grooves each about 18 inches wide cut into the blacktop under the elevated. I find this unusual in that McDonald Avenue was recently resurfaced with a thin film of blacktop in this area, and this was after a more comprehensive resurfacing just a few years earlier.
My guess as to why these grooves were milled (rather haphazardly, I might add -- they zigzag around as if the miller was drunk when he scored the pavement) is because they may be thinking of uprooting the old SBK trackage underneath the roadbed, but why would they go through such trouble to do this? I know of no other instance where the city would bother uprooting old trolley tracks.
Anyway, crossing these grooves in a car does a number on the tires and springs if you cross them quickly, and seems to open the city up to damage claims. Traveling with the grooves creates handling problems as your tires are not level and your car may "track" (pun intended) along the grooves against your will.
What advantage would there be to uprooting the tracks other than recycling, which in itself doesn't seem to justify the cost of recovery?
I gotta look into this! Might just be somebody transporting a backhoe or some other heavy-duty construction equipment and the blade was dragging in the street...
On both sides of the street, at approximately the gauge of railroad tracks? For several blocks? Without any gravel or other debris close by?
My girlfriend warned me about this, so my car was spared. Last time I drove along McDonald Avenue at Bay Parkway right by the Mobil station, Con Ed laid some sort of cable across the road and didn't fill the excavation well or mark it, and I hit it at 30 mph causing my tire to bubble.
Imagine FOUR of these similar situations, running for what could be at least the length of between two subway stations, with many cross streets. Caused some delays around Avenue I and Bay Parkway as people who knew about the situation slowed down, while those who didn't went WHAM! and got their tires messed up.
If you are going to check it out, notice that at some points the rails are exposed and quite scratched. At most points, however, I could not see the rails exposed, making me wonder why the operation was done in the first place.
When the tracks were there they were a hazard to drivers, especially in the rain or snow. The tracks were unusable after 1978 when they were totally removed from a few sections of McDonald Avenue during a street reconstuction project. But for whatever reason they were not paved over until at least 1991. Even stranger is that Railroad Crossing signs were painted onto the streets crossing McDonald in 1979 when it was physically impossible for trains to run there.
Are you implying that now they are exhuming the well-paved-over railroad tracks over the course of the avenue? It still strikes me as odd that the City would go through all that trouble, as I have never seen or heard of any such program in the past.
Wasn't the paving (and even two subsequent repavings of varied complexity) enough to mute any hazard the tracks posed? Is McDonald Avenue in some unique position another heavily-railed and heavily-traveled street like Flushing Avenue, where this type of situation doesn't seem to occur?
One reason I could see why they would want to uproot the tracks from McDonald Avenue is because I have seen seams develop in the blacktop around the line of the rails. These seams were quite localized and not very deep, but again, how is McDonald Avenue unique in that this is the only street I see where new pavement is seaming at the rail line?
Sorry, but the replies are creating more questions than answers LOL.
The ruts continue and curve off onto 37th St. There are no ruts on the bridge over the LIRR.
Maybe over time the tracks underneath have been causing problems with the pavement and they're cutting them out. Maybe they're going to re-lay them so trains can run in the street again. Who knows?
It's more than several blocks. I am not certain but I could swear that the ruts extend from18th Avenue right down to at least Avenue M. It makes for a really tough drive not matter what kind of vehicle you have.
>>> I noticed that McDonald Avenue at and around Bay Parkway has four pavement milling grooves each about 18 inches wide cut into the blacktop under the elevated <<<
Milling grooves? I have not heard that term before, but I assume you mean a man made cut. It is not unusual for expansion cracks to follow paved over tracks. With changes of temperature, the metal tracks conduct temperatures differently than the substrata on either side, so cracks form along the length of the rails. The paving over the rails has less of an adhesion to the metal than the surrounding paving, so over time, if further repairs are not made, chunks will come loose, particularly if heavy trucks use the street.
Here in Los Angeles, where street cars last ran 40 years ago, and temperature changes are fairly moderate, there are streets where you can trace the buried streetcar tracks by the cracks in the pavement.
Tom
I can understand what you mean, and that may create the seams in otherwise set and undisturbed blacktop, but this looks like eighteen-inch wide sections of blacktop were stripped from the surface in approximately the same place as where the railroad tracks would be underneath. About two inches deep were milled away in each instance. And these weren't straight lines either. They waved around with maybe two or three feet of play along the grooves.
They had better be doing something major over there, otherwise it anmounts to nothing more than unnecessary aggravation.
A friend of mine sent this along, thought folks here might enjoy it as well ...
The following work rule changes are now in effect on former Conrail territory operated by CSX and NS:
1) All locomotives will be equipped with gun racks.
2) Instead of meal vouchers, each crew member will be issued two cans of RC Cola and a Moon Pie.
3) Train crew headgear must display the "Redman" chewing tobacco logo.
4) Yard and local freight crews must have a coon dog asleep on the front platform of the locomotive.
5) Each crewmember must put a sticker for favorite NASCAR driver on side cab window.
6) Birthday of Robert E. Lee is now a paid holiday.
7) All yards will have at least two inoperable locomotives up on blocks in front of the yard office,
with at least 25% of usable parts removed.
8) Grade crossing signal (Rule 14L) is now the first 12 notes of "Dixie".
9) All radio transmissions will end with the word "Y'all"
10) "Road Foreman of Engines" job title is changed to "Overseer".
I can relate to that!
1) Recommended firearms: Winchester model 94 (.32 Winchester Special) or a Remington .30-.30 and a Savage over-and-under combo (.22 cal./12 ga.), plus a fishing pole and some good bass lures.
2) Diabetics get Diet Rite and a pack of Nabs.
3) Farm equipment or a Richard Petty cap also acceptable.
4) No substitutions.
5) Driver must be active on the circuit (only exception to that rule: Richard Petty).
6) Born 19 January 1807. Also, Confederate Memorial Day will be observed; since it is observed on different dates in different states, all four dates will be celebrated by the railroad (26 April, 10 May, 30 May, and 03 June).
7) Steam locomotives don't count unless you can't see them under all the kudzu, in which case they don't count anyway.
8) With your hand over your heart...
9) Unless you're talking to the Overseer, in which case it's "Yes sir".
10) All other titles are changed to "Bubba".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hahaha ... y'all step up now, we're gonna highball this sucker. :)
This has been floating around since 1997.
First time I saw it ... but that'd make sense.
Some recently-heard announcements that I find annoying:
1. Several times over the last couple of weekends: "This E train will be rerouted over the F Line to Second Avenue." The implication is that ONLY this E train will be rerouted, and that all other E trains will operate normally.
2. During my normal commute: "Attention passengers. Attention passenger. This F train will operate through the 63rd Street Connector. The next stop is 21st Street-Queensbridge." Why is NORMAL service announced as if it were a detour?
3. Routinely, from too many conductors on the E, F, G, R: "71st Street-Continental Avenue." Why do they insist on announcing wrong information? (One conductor whom I tried to correct pointed to the track-wall tiles marked "71ST AVE" and read it as "71st Street and Avenue"!)
How about the conductors on the BMT who, on a Saturday night approaching Atlantic Ave or Pacific Street, insist on saying: "Change here for the 2,3,4, and 5 trains!" When was the last time a #5 train stopped t Atlantic Avenue on a Saturday or Sunday?
Well, they still dutifully announce the J (and sometimes the M and Z) on weekends at Fulton/Broadway-Nassau. And I've heard "transfer for the L, F, and 63rd Street Shuttle" a couple of times in the last month at 14th Street on the IRT. Plus there's the ongoing confusion over the N and W trains (during a weekend GO several weeks ago when the 7 wasn't running to Manhattan, announcements on the uptown 4/5 at Grand Central said "take this train to 59th Street and transfer to an N to Queensboro Plaza").
Yes, and we're not even talking about "annoying" announcements, actually. We're talking about C/R's who are blatantly misleading the riding public with erroneous information!! I wish they would learn how to do that aspect of their job correctly!
And don't any of you guys or any of your friends traveling to New York dare ride the #1 to South Ferry unless you like riding in front. Three years ago I made the mistake of riding in the sixth car, very ususual for me, and paid the price. The conductor sounded like he had marbles in his mouth and I had been deposited five stations back north before I realized what he was saying. I know better now and make sure I'm in the FIRST car when I take the #1 to South Ferry.
Any one of the first 5 cars is fine.
Peace,
ANDEE
Get a stress ball.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree completely, especially with number 1.
It seems to be a question of train-think vs. passenger-think. The C/R naturally thinks in terms of where his train is going. There's nothing wrong with that, except that what's on the minds of the passengers (except us) is not where a particular train is going -- it's how to get to point B. C/R's make the translation from train-think to passenger-think to varying degrees of success.
The announcement you heard forces passengers to guess what other trains will be doing. Did the C/R mean, "This E train will be running over the F line; passengers for E service should wait here for the next E train," or "All E trains are running over the F line; passengers for F service should seek an alternate route"?
Another pet peeve of mine: weekend GO's often force all trains onto the express track or the local track. Many C/R's announce the usual transfers even when there's no reason to transfer. It's bad enough, when locals run express, that passengers have to backtrack; with poor announcements, a passenger already seated comfortably on an express will get off and wait for a local, only to find that it's also running express. (Some C/R's do think about this. I was on a 4 express today with clear announcements approaching 14th that 6's were also running express to 42nd, and that passengers for local stops should stay on the 4 to 42nd and backtrack.)
In the case of this recurring E GO, I don't see why the trains are labeled E at all. Between Jamaica Center and Van Wyck, they're running as E's. Between Van Wyck and Roosevelt, they're running as E's or F's. Between Roosevelt and 2nd, they're running as F's. Seeing as the majority of the route, including the Manhattan section (the tourist factor), is the F's route, signing them as E's causes unnecessary confusion. IMO, the route pattern used for similar GO's in 2001 made more sense: F (now-)normal, E suspended, R extended to Jamaica Center. I'm sure passengers at the three E-only stations prefer the express service they have with the current arrangement, but with that arrangement come many more confused passengers all through Queens and Manhattan. (Or if not this, at least post notices on trains!)
A different, but still annoying, flavor of bad announcements: there's at least one C/R on the 2 that is really fond of the extra announcements ("thank you for riding MTA NYCT", "do not hold doors", "no smoking", etc.) and triggers one at nearly every station stop. Especially annoying since this character seems to work late nights - lots and lots of local stops!
LOL I think I know who that is.
>>"2. During my normal commute: "Attention passengers. Attention passenger. This F train will operate through the 63rd Street Connector. The next stop is 21st Street-Queensbridge." Why is NORMAL service announced as if it were a detour?"<<
Maybe people STILL think that the F runs through the 53 St tunnel or people don't even know that the tunnel operates via 63 St :-\.
>>"3. Routinely, from too many conductors on the E, F, G, R: "71st Street-Continental Avenue." Why do they insist on announcing wrong information? (One conductor whom I tried to correct pointed to the track-wall tiles marked "71ST AVE" and read it as "71st Street and Avenue"!)"<<
A mistake perhaps, no one's perfect but come on that is just plain stupid, IMO but people know the station, let the C/R slide on that one.
Hey, at least you heard the announcement. Some C/R's do not announce the stops AT ALL or the annoucements are garbled and they sound like they are in a "Got milk" commercial.
>>"3. Routinely, from too many conductors on the E, F, G, R: "71st Street-Continental Avenue." Why do they insist on announcing wrong information? (One conductor whom I tried to correct pointed to the track-wall tiles marked "71ST AVE" and read it as "71st Street and Avenue"!)"<<
Several years ago at Continental Ave there were overhead Black on White signs on the platform that at first glance made it look like 71 Street. Actually it said 71st AVENUE. And I guess that error has persisted to this day. Actually Continental Ave is more around 108 Street.
At least you're not a TAPD working in Queens. Dispatchers are always refering to 82 St on the #7 line as "82 Street - Jackson Avenue".
>>"At least you're not a TAPD working in Queens. Dispatchers are always refering to 82 St on the #7 line as "82 Street - Jackson Avenue"."<<
Now that's pure error. Some C/R's make some funny announcements as well. Recently on the F, the C/R was funny he called the stops, "Next stop..Jay St-Boro Hall[since that was my stop to get off at], Manhattan bound F as in FOX, Stand clear of the closing doors" *Ding dong*. And he had a Midwestern accent to top it off, now thats some funny stuff.
But I hate garbled announcements and faulty P/A systems & when C/R's say that there is a red signal [even though sometimes there is not] that just annoys me.
How is the C/R supposed to know if there's a red signal? Unless he hears from his T/O, he's guessing, and it's usually a good guess -- why else would the train be stopped? OTOH, it's not a very useful announcement to the passengers.
Unless he hears from his T/O, he's guessing,
Which is why he's not supposed to say it in the first place.
The bottom line is that there are C/R's who operate on "automatic pilot". They are like parrots, they just say things without even thinking or realizing what they are saying. The only problem with this is that they are screwing up people's lives in the process. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if their own wife or daughter was misdirected by one of these employees, and they ended up being hours late coming home or physically harmed because of having to wander around aimlessly.
The guy (C/R) who says "ALL ABOARD" on the D train is MOST annoying.
Peace,
ANDEE
I must add one more annoying announcement, with subsequent exchange between myself and a typical conductor...
4. On weekend F trains heading up 6th Avenue: "Transfer here for the B and D."
ME: Why announce the B? It doesn't run on weekends.
C/R: Because there are times when it DOES run, so I have to announce it at all times.
ME: Then why not announce the V, too?
C/R: Because it doesn't run on weekends.
LMAO, I can't believe that actually happened. Does the conductor think the B still run on weekends, man he's lost.
Here's another one
C/R: 4 Av transfers available to the M, N and R
Now why do you announce that the N stops at 9 St when it DOES NOT and it runs express, BTW this happened today in the rush hour while I was on the F :-\.
I'd wager that the conductor is merely saying what is in the book of sayings of the Chairman. Penalty points for varying from script. The beakies might get you if you waiver from the script these days. If it says announce transfer for B&D here, by gum I'm saying what the book says, and let the committee decide if the V runs or not. Perhaps THIS is why ...
There is actually a Bulletin to inform us that not all lines run at all times, and that some lines do not make all stops at all times.
Does it actually decode the announcements to be made? If so, then the conductors would likely require a genuine RTO clock to watch in the cab:
New Tech RTO clock - click here
Now, THAT is a wonderful time-waster. Where (How) did you find it?
One of our customers sent it to me earlier today. I think it's a keeper! One of the nice things about making folks happy when they have problems is that they're so impressed most of the time, they send treats as thanks. :)
Firday night, HBLR was suspended at Harborside due to a SUV meeting a train. Any news on your front on this. It was on TV with no video. How much damage to either the train or SUV? Any injuries?
I'm guessing the SUV fared better than the train
This sort of thing's bound to happen sooner or later. I'd imagine that the SUV was damaged more than the LRV; streetcars are quite substantial objects, even compared to SUVs.
-Robert King
>>>I'm guessing the SUV fared better than the train <<<
What brings you to that conclusion?
Peace,
ANDEE
Let's hope not.
wayne
Saturday's Jersey (City) Journal says "There were injuries. The accident caused little damage to either the train or the SUV." A shuttle bus ran to Harborside. I'll let you know if there's a followup tomorrow (the paper doesn't publish Sundays).
You see if we would tax SUV's this wouldn't happen.
(World According to Qdash7)
Are you kidding. The SUV (if a late model) was probably made into shrapnel by the HBLR unit. Detroit products are like tin toys nowadays.
Detroit products are like tin toys nowadays.
I'd beg to differ with that statement. Case in point: a recent accident involving a Lexus SUV vs. a Ford Explorer at the intersection right below my house (Lexus tried to turn left onto my street, in front of Explorer travelling about 25-30 mph - nearly direct head on). The Lexus was a guaranteed total - roof buckled, passenger side front door buckled outward. Visible damage on the Explorer (other than interior damage from the air bags deploying) was confined to the very front end - no extension into the passenger compartment. Component deformation is part of the energy absorption process and contributes to injury reduction, but Ford designs most of their vehicles to absorb all the energy of a frontal impact in the front subassemblies so that the passenger cocoon remains intact, while the Japanese SUVs (like those from Mercedes and BMW) are designed such that the entire vehicle will deform. Both design approaches ultimately provide approximately equivalent occupant protection but Ford's design makes it more likely that the vehicle can be repaired and returned to service following a low to medium speed accident. (Incidentally, the only injury requiring emergency transport following this particular accident was a rear seat passenger in the Lexus who was not wearing their seat belt.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A girl at the transit company I work for rear ended a stationary Subaru wagon (wating to make a left) at 45-50 mph with a 40-foot RTS bus. The Subaru was annihilated. The rear hatchback was about halfway through the backseat area (there were no passengers besides the driver, thankfully). The damage to the bus? Well, the bike rack was bent a little bit, and it sticks a bit when you try to lower it. Other than that, there's a couple of scratches on the bumper. I'm guessing an LRV with a coupler in front would fare even better.
A girl at the transit company I work for rear ended a stationary Subaru wagon (wating to make a left) at 45-50 mph with a 40-foot RTS bus. The Subaru was annihilated.
Is she now a girl you used to work with?
Ok, the last 2 times I took Amtrak on the Empire Corridor the at-seat outlet didn't work... now is there any particular reason why or was it just bad luck? BTW it was the whole car, I checked several on both sides. The reason I ask is that this Monday afternoon I'm going home (Albany to NYC), and will be transporting my VCR as well, and if there is no reason to expect the outlet to not work I wanted to plug it in so I could use my digital camera's video-out and tape the view (as opposed to making 30 second low quality video clips).
And question #2... if the customer outlets don't work, will those ones near the floor presumably for cleaning staff work? If so, then I'll go through the extra trouble of finding a seat there, plus take a train that originates here instead of further west/east/north.
Normally they DO work, assuming that the lights work in the car. That comes off the HEP from the locomotive, and assuming it's a Genesis it SHOULD be working. HOWEVER ... there's a breaker panel in the vestibule and it's possible that it might have tripped. I don't know if the conductors are authorized to reset them if they've tripped. About the only thing I can suggest is move to another car if this is the case. On the Turbos (the rebuilts will NOT be running anytime soon owing to yet ANOTHER pissing match between Paturkey, Bruno and Amtrak now in progress) the "business class car" is the only one with electrons and that requires a premium fare. But on the regular cars, those outlets should be lit and if not, it's probably just the one car that suffers the outage. You may have to pick another car if you find the outlets dead in the one you're on. You COULD try asking the conductor if it's possible to check the breakers, but that might be out of title and rarely is an electrician on the train.
Here's some second hand imformation I received on where and when the first set of M-7's run. So far, I believe they run on weekdays only, unless someone reports that they rode them on a weekend.
Long Beach 6:12AM - Flatbush 7:06AM
Flatbush 7:29AM - Long Beach 8:22AM
Long Beach 8:38AM - Flatbush 9:26AM
They lay up at Vanderbilt yard (VD) until the 6:04PM run.
Flatbush 6:04PM - Ronkonkoma 7:27PM
A second train is due to hit the rails for revenue service in December.
Bill "Newkirk"
.
and the meaning of this post is?
changing the "M" in information to an "N".
Peace,
ANDEE
hate to tell u this man, but there is already a second set in service on the long beach line. i dont know its exact schedule but i know its not like the original set because it was running at 9pm on a wednesday night bypassing Rosedale. the lead car was 7008 with the tailcar saying 7021. now the first set is 7014 with 7015 or 7011 tailing along, so u know there are already 2 sets in service. oh the joys of working for Metro North has alot of benefits with LIRR :)
i work for Metro North but i have alot of friends in LIRR supervision, so whenever LIRR is doing something, i know very early. i also knew the timetable already, i just kept it quiet
Is there enough track capacity to extend the 6 to Bowling Green using the South Ferry loop to turn around trains?
Noper. It would require running over 40 trains between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green!
The problem is that trains on the southbound local track at Brooklyn Bridge HAVE to go around the City Hall Loop, and return on the northbound Brooklyn Bridge local track. In order for a local to go on a route Canal - Brooklyn Bridge - Fulton, the train has to move to the southbound express track before entering Brooklyn Bridge. That would not work well when the 4 and 5 are running, so the only time they could do that is nights if they wanted to. It would not work rush hours or during the day.
Good point.
Track Capacity? Arguably likely.
Geese Patience? Nay.
Uptown PATH service was held at Christopher St about 3:45 this afternoon, with just the last car in the station. Port Authority and Sixth Precinct officers screened passengers who then left the station, eventually coming up with a pocketbook snatcher.
As Jersey-bound passengers were segregated, I am curious as to how these uptown riders were dealt with. Were they directed to Christopher Street or just left to wander upstairs? How about refunds? Most of us Jerseyites are so much sheep in unfamiliar parts of Manhattan.
I first saw this pictue many years ago, so I know what it is. Even if you know where it is, you may not what is.
So where is it? What is it? FYI, It IS Brooklyn Rapid Transit.
Paul, I was going to say Sands Street, but I'm having second thoughts. Culver Terminal? Bedford Station?
Looks like a ticket booth made from the end of a gate car.
Wow, that was fast, Doug. Yes, it is a ticket booth (there's another in the background, side view), custom made to look like the end of a gate car. Isn't that cool? And the BRT didn't even get a grant from the NEA for it.
Culver Terminal?
Yes, this is the sight that greeted people entering Culver Depot from Surf Avenue.
Long before "Arts in Transit."
What do I win? -:)
The link to the rest of thr story, courtesy Art Hueneke.
Very NICE website! Paul, how did you find this place?
It's been around for about a year. I have several links to it from my website.
Man, I'd like to know the source for his photo collection...awesome shots particularly from the Manhattan Beach Branch. I've never seen any of those in publication before.
I'm pretty sure it's all Art's personal collection.
It is his personal collection. Most of the best (IMO) Culver shots are from Street Railway Journal.
Art's been around for a long time and he is a retired LIRR towerman and whatever you would call a master towerman.
We did a radio program for a local station together. He knows a lot of really cool arcana, like how the towers were numbered and why they were named, and the history of individual switches and signals.
I just came across this post card on Ebay showing crowds arriving in Coney Island in 1913 or earlier according to the postmark.
Is this Stillwell Terminal and are those trolley poles on top of the cars??
\
coney island post card
That's a fairly common pictures, both b/w and colorized, as here.
It is Culver Depot, Coney Island, and that's a Brighton Beach train, awaiting a new crowd to retrun northbond (or westbound in BRT parlance). The people on the platform to the left of the train are waiting to board, or the right obviously arriving at Coney.
The tracks on right are a scenic railway--maybe Thompson's but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.
It makes me wonder how many men today dress up in coat and tie with a straw hat for a day of "merrymaking" at Coney Island?
Last week I saw some Amish folks on the 6:14 LIRR to Great Neck, not that there's anything wrong with that. But I thought they couldn't use anything electric or mechanical?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
how do you know that they were Amish? Aren't there other groups that dress up similarly (Quakers? I'm not sure)? Also, perhaps they were just dressing up as Amish for the fun of it.
Amish frequently will take public transportation to visit places too far for horse-powered transportation, a good example being when Pennsylvania Amish wants to visit the Amish communities in Ohio. They may even ride in a car driven by a non-AMish, if there is an important reason.
As I understand Amish customs (my Pennsylvania in-laws were fairly familiar) many customs are not religious proscriptions in the sense that you will have committed a sin so much as a conscious rejection of modern customs in order to maintain the coherence of the religious community.
One open practice which was pointed out to me was the use of community refrigerators which may be in a general store for the longer term storage of necessary perishables. Another is the fact that many Amish are in local construction, and will keep a telephone on the front porch but not inside the house.
I guess there's also a minor possibility you saw Mennonites, whose dress is somewhat similar (but someone familiar would recognize the difference). Mennonite customs are not as strict.
As long as a non-Amish (English) person is operating the vehicle (in this case a LIRR employee) then it's Kosher (can think of any other word).
Some come into Maryland on the weekends to tend to their store and driven in vans by non-Amish (English).
Old Order Amish will not use any modern conveniences. Modern Amish will do so in a business or communal setting, but not for personal convenience (although some have modern gas-powered refrigerators nowadays since ice refrigeration is becoming unavailable). Mennonites, who are "cousins" of the Amish religiously and who dress in a similar fashion, have no such restrictions; a couple of years ago, while on vacation in Toronto, we encountered a Mennonite farm family from Saskatchewan who even had a camera (Papa was a railfan, as it turned out).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, I believe there is a Mennonite group that regularly sings Christian hyms and passes out religious literature at the NYCT Broadway Junction complex.
When I was living in Canarsie, I would occasionaly encounter this grouping of men and women in similar Amish garb (except the men had little or no facial hair). They did their thing on the connecting passageway that leads to the escalators to the A/C trains. I also found them there one day recently while passing through the area. They seem to congregate at B'way Junction in time for the evening rush hour crowd.
He's not the only Mennonite railran out there. I'm one, and my dad's an even bigger one than I am! Mennonites cover a broader spectrum than the Amish, ranging from the really concervative ones who look, dress, and live in a manner very similar to that of the Amish to those whose dress and lifestyle are in every way modern (lke myself.)
Mark
These folks were definitely dressed like the Amish... that was what made the modern camera seem so totally out of place! We were up on one of the towers of Casa Loma, a large castle-like residence in Toronto now open as a museum, which had a beautiful view of the city; down below was one of the CN lines that cross the city. Lots of grain passing by, Papa was photographing the power and telling his children that it was quite possible the grain in the hoppers (many of which were Saskatchewan Wheat Pool) had come from their farm. Unusual power combinations on some of those trains... lashups of six to eight locomotives, ranging from the latest GE and EMD six-axle units to rebuilt four-axle switchers (SW-1200 or similar) in the same lashup, all pulling.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Black Bumper Amish Rock!!!
OWWWWW....so we have discovered ammonia refrigeration units, solar powered well pumps, turbodiesel hydraulic woodworking machinery and bare lightbulbs to display quiltworks to the Goyim for sale! The traditional Amish struggle desperatly to keep their identity...what the public does not know is of their phenomenal 'good works.' IF the Amish ran Transit................CI Peter
Religious reasons aside, the Amish are very good customers of Amtrak Keystone trains to Philly and NYC and The 3 Rivers / Pennsylvanian to Chicago. When I went on the 3 rivers, 5 to 10 % of the people were Amish.
5 to 10%, did you count every passanger on the train to come up with that figure?
Well, locomotive's engines are rated in HORSEPOWER aren't they???
Rim shot please...
Oy
Dem English ...
One team....two men
If you recall, the whole plot behind the classic 1985 film WITNESS evolved from an Amish boy who witnessed a murder in the restroom of the 30th Street terminal. Kelly McGillis and Lukas Haas (?) were supposedly taking Amtrak from Philly to Baltimore. I didn't see the movie, so can't remember the reason. But this proves the Amish do indeed ride trains.
Elsewhere in this thread were discussions about Mennonites vs. Amish. One Sunday last month, we were in Central Park when there was apparently a Mennonite recruiting drive going on. They were handing out pamphlets to everyone they could- even in the mens' room! But unlike other religious prosthelyzers, they politely retreated if you indicated you weren't interested. The men were in conservative business suits. Many of the women wore long skirts and had babushkas on their head, making them look very similar to Hasidim.
Howard, as I mentioned in an earlier post I believe it was Mennoites that would prosthelyze over by Broadway Junction during the evening rush hours. The group you described at Central Park sounds very much like the grouping I saw. One additional note: the women appeared to be wearing something similar to yarmukles on their heads.
I have to hit the sack....I'm up at 0430 for inspection but I have to say you're mixing Hassidic for Mennonite. You've never been to the big auctions in Harrisburg Pa. to earn money for international Good Works of Faith. Women are wearing traditional clothing to do farm work...the very same clothing they wear at farmers markets. It is called 'plain dress.'
Wrong...they were Christians....there literature (and hyms) indicated as much. Again, everthing indicated Amish, except for the men w/o beards (or most of them).
Are you sure they weren't "Messianic Jews" (Christians in disguise)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmmmm....that's a new one on me. However, wouldn't they be pushing 'Jews for Jesus' literature, or is that a different group altogther??? (Sorry, I'm not to 'up' on my sects 'n cults these days).
Different bunch... same motivation, though. Without having seen them in person I'd be hard pressed to speculate further.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are you sure they weren't "Messianic Jews" (Christians in disguise)?
Anon: Unless I have my history wrong the Christian Church was stared by 13 Jewish guys. Of course if Mary's maiden name was O'Malley....
Larry,RedbirdR33
Misread my intentions...posts are mixing up 13th Avenuers. I'm well aware of what Mennonites/Amish are. In New Jersey, there is only one 'Church of the Brethern'.....in Hope, NJ, just down the road from Saint Lukes Episcopal....built in 1832. The less traditional Amish men you see in the subway appear to the public clean shaven...nobody pays attention to Smith Brother Cough Drops!!!
Now that you have mentioned Smith Brothers Cough Drops, can you tell me the names of the Smith Brothers?
They were "Trade" and "Mark" although "Snuffy" and "Shemp" sometimes stood in when they had the sniffles. :)
Gee, somebody else around here who's into weird arcane trivia.
Lived across the river from Poughkeepsie for a number of years. Local history. :)
Did you pick your feet in Poughkeepsie? (where's that line from?)
The French Connection, of course.
Peace,
ANDEE
Gene Hackman says he had a hard time getting that line down pat.
They put in hundreds of benches on the "Main Mall" in Poughkeepsie so everyone could pick to their heart's content. Poughkeepsie, "The Progressive Queen City" as it said at da bus terminal ... some things are best not taken too deeply. Poughkeepsie has always been a VERY weird place though ...
LOL!!! Ya got me rolling on that one! :)
By the way, if anyone's interested in the REAL Smith Brothers whose real names were actually William (Trade) and Andrew (Mark), details here:
http://www.fffoods.com/gallery.htm
Wesson! I forgot the other.
avid
Funny how in "The Witness" the Amish boy thought the Chasidic guy in the train station was another Amish. The Chasid just coldly looked at him, like "what do you want?"
Not everything you see in the movies is true :)
--Brian
The Amish ride free on the Straussberg railroad.
Wass thiss brodah??? Strassberg (not Straus) goes nowheres. Better to hitch your horse to the black buggy.
I need my sleep time but when I caught this, o'boyem the Goyim.
The tradition of Mennonite culture is the disconnection from outside society. I did NOT read previous posts...I have direct experience!
Heavy Duty Amish farms were 'horse team and two men with ground driven machinery' because one tractor would displace the work...now horses tow gas engine operated machinery. Wood workshops were assumed to be all hand work...not so...shops run hydraulic/belt raceway from turbodeisel stationary engines....large windows provide DAYLIGHT working hours. Telephones are the tool of the idle but when an injury occurs, how do you summon help swiftly??? The telephone is available 3/4 mile away! Grid electricity generally remains unconnected to isolate the Amish from the outer world but a major agricultural product of the Amish remains tobaco and that is coming to an end...outside connection. So I'm crusin the Lancaster off-roads
and check out this 'Hassidic looking' on roller skates. They were steel wheeled Roller Blades! The traditional Amish recognise the need to accept modern technology to preserve their way of life. What bugs me is that nobody has the guts to go up to them to say. "Thankyou for visiting our city and sharing with us your fain God." CI Peter
Since I'm an actual Mennonite, I've enjoyed following this thread, and I have a lot of thoughts, clarifications, and answers to questions I've read, etc. but I'm not sure this is the place for it. So, if anyone has any questions on any of the things being discussed, I'm happy to answer them by email, at mmichalovic@yahoo.com.
Mark
Going through the rubble on my desk I found my copy of "Unifying the Subways".
In the text describing the events of the early days of the TA, etc., it mentions that the R-16's, delivered in 1954, were "not that suited for outdoor operation".
HUH???? I seem to remember they ran on the Jamaica "el" from delivery to the mid-1960's.
Can anyone elaborate why they weren't good for the outdoors?
That is a very interesting piece of information on the R-16s. Maybe that is why they were so miserable in snowy weather. In a book that I have about the subways, they had to move the R-16 which usually operated on the Jamaica Line ["J" train] to the Canarsie Line ["L" train] during snowy weather becuase they weren't mechanically reliable in such weather. If anyone has more information on the subject, please let us know.
#3 West End Jeff
That's exactly right. That's why I headed out to the Jamaica Line whenever the flakes fell. It was my only chance to ride a BMT Standard on the line, which was otherwise 100% R16s.
However, the R27s were no great shakes in stormy weather either. Snow brought out Standards on the Brighton Local in the '60s.
However, the R27s were no great shakes in stormy weather either. Snow brought out Standards on the Brighton Local in the '60s.
I don't think that the R27s had as many problems with snow as the R16s did, but the TA, being somewhat wary considering the problems with the R16s, sent the R27s underground (to the RR - 4th Ave. local line, totally underground from 95th St. Brooklyn to Forest Hills) during a heavy snow in February 1961. By the following winter, such a reassignment wasn't a possibility, as the R27/30s were providing all of the service on the RR as well as the QB/QT.
-- Ed Sachs
I don't think that the R27s had as many problems with snow as the R16s did, but the TA, being somewhat wary considering the problems with the R16s, sent the R27s underground (to the RR - 4th Ave. local line, totally underground from 95th St. Brooklyn to Forest Hills) during a heavy snow in February 1961. By the following winter, such a reassignment wasn't a possibility, as the R27/30s were providing all of the service on the RR as well as the QB/QT.
My memory is that Standards continued to be brought out to cover for R-types in snowy weather wherever possible, such as at midday, nights and weekends.
An additional problem with the R16s AND R27s was that a snowstorm quite efficiently cleaned an amazing amount of heat out of the cars whenever the doors opened on outdoor sections. The situation was helped a little by keying open only one half-door per car at outdoor terminals like Coney Island.
The situation was helped a little by keying open only one half-door per car
How were they able to key open one half of a door?
The situation was helped a little by keying open only one half-door per car
How were they able to key open one half of a door?
The door half closest to the motorman's position could be opened and closed by an exterior key slot.
This is still the practice today.
There was an interior key slot, too. Here's the odd part: on the R-1/9s this key slot is between the first and second set of doors from the motorman's cab while on postwar cars it is on the same side of the first set of doors as the cab or end bulkhead. Can't remember where it was on the R-10s.
Tighten your hat ... there was actually a DESIGN to the placement. An old timer in CIY told me that the CITY mandated that position on their fleet of Arnines for a reason! In many train wrecks, the front part of the car (including cab and often right up the door line (check photos of wrecks here and SEE what happens when trains kiss the metal)) ... the LOGIC of the design was to place the crew key switch further BACK in case of a wreck.
Now before you actually think Civil Service management actually had a CLUE, think about WHICH door opened? Duh ...
Everyone seemed to fumble around with that key before the door leaf would open during Subtalk Day.
Yeah, the guideway was a little loose in there. Crew key on Arnines was a bit strange - you had a front "pocket" and a rear pocket to activate the switch in there and it was a bit loose. The one on the offside from the platform (that opened towards the barn) was fine. But it wasn't the door misbehaving. :)
I was trying to make a funny about openng half a door and you wouldn't play along!
Ohhhh, I get it.
OK, it was a Dutch door, you know, like in the old cartoons. :)
Or, in George and Gracie Allens TV house. Gawd NOW I am really dating myself. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Gawd NOW I am really dating myself. 8-)
Say "Goodnight," Gracie.
This is still standard procedure when trains are idle in outdoor terminals in cold weather. Try waitng on an A train at Lefferts Blvd in the middle of winter on those 20 minute headways with all-open doors!
Better than what they do in Chicago. The CTA tends to leave the train parked at the platform at the terminal station will all of the doors shut and make the passengers wait outside in the cold.
-- Ed Sachs
I think the half-door open was a possibility on all the cars, at least up to the R-68's- I've seen that on almost all car types until the late 80's. On the Dyre shuttle late at night, when the token booths were closed, and you needed a token to board a southbound 5, when the train pulled into the station, the conductor would only open one door panel, and would stand in the doorway with a bus type farebox.
On the R110B's, you could open one door leaf in every car from the conductor's position! I wonder if this feature was incorporated into the 142/143's.
Ed, I forgot to ask you from another thread of several weeks ago....You mentioned that the Triplexes ran on Saturdays as Brighton/Franklin locals in the early '60s. Were they signed up as #7?
Paul, THANKS!
You are probably aware that the R-16s had bum door motors that were replaced during the 1970s and the covers over the door motors gave the interiors of the R-16s the appearance of the London Tube trains.
#3 West End Jeff
They looked like terrible after the door motor retrofit, from the pictures that I have seen.
They looked terrible after the door motor retrofit, from the pictures that I have seen.
You are probably aware that the R-16s had bum door motors that were replaced during the 1970s and the covers over the door motors gave the interiors of the R-16s the appearance of the London Tube trains.
Actually, I wasn't particularly aware of that. I don't have any clear memory of riding an R-16 after Chrystie--i.e., in the '70s.
The R27s also had enormous door problems. Non-opening door halves were an everyday occurance. IIRC, the R16s had a separate motor for each door half, but the R27's were linked by a single motor between successive door halves.
The R27s also had enormous door problems. Non-opening door halves were an everyday occurance. IIRC, the R16s had a separate motor for each door half, but the R27's were linked by a single motor between successive door halves.
Correct. I remember that most of the time a good number of doors on any given train would not open. ANd the problem was on the R27's that if one door in a doorway was broken, that made two doorways that had only single doors opening (because they were connected), of course making it hard to load and unload. Many times at least half of the cars in a train had doors that didn't open at any given time.
Even Arnines had that "door motor under the windows" design, so that if you cut out a door set by lifting the transverse seat and lifted the magic lever, you'd have one half of a door on each side of the windows that didn't open. Cut out enough, and folks would have to use the storm doors to access the cars. And Arnines were TOUGH suckers, you could USUALLY get the doors working again with a bit of oomph and some magic TA grease. The 16's and the 27/30's were PIGS. No offense, Mr White Meat. :)
Selkirk:
Of the cars that you mentioned that were PIGS! I think that the R-16s were the worst of them since they weren't very good in snowy weather.
#3 West End Jeff
They weren't good in ANY weather ... even sunshine and 75% with blue skies (though they WERE a bit better than usual then) ... 27/30's were the same old story. Put IRT lookalikes on the BMT and it all went straight to hell. :)
Then why did some halfwit tell me that the R-30s were good when the truth of the matter was they weren't. I guess he was living in another world. Sometimes the so called "Hippos" [R-68s] can run decently.
#3 West End Jeff
The 30's were a bit better than the 27's, but the 32's had them all beat ... I guess compared to the 16's they were a delight. :)
I guess compared to the 16's they were a delight.
I would assume ANYTHING was a delight compared to the R16's. I hated them back then!
Now I only wish one of those rolling disasters would pull into the station.
You can wait on the platform at Kingston, there's one that rolls up there. :)
And once the Transit Museum reopens, you'll be able to see 6387 once again vegetating along with the other B division rolling stock.
Kingston's closer to me and at least the car MOVES. :)
It does??? I'm closer to Kingston, then you and haven't seen it
move yet. >DAH< Haven't seen the JTown move either. They
don't call it the "Trolley Masoleum of New York" for what moves.
Been there ... done that ... still waiting for the juice ...
25 year member. Maybe when the Second Avenue Subway commences
service, they'll have operating R-160s.
:-( Sparky
I thought they dragged it around with a loco? If it don't move, it ain't no fun - I know they ain't got electrons so it can move on its own, but I thought they at least dragged it around the lawn every now and then. :)
I've heard, not seen, that the secretative illusive congregants
have been know to tow it with #9. The hell they don't even issue
a newsletter to their members. Keep them in the dark, just send
them a renewal notice and hopefully they'll send gelt.
Will verify that on my last two visits, the R-16 was not on the
same track as the previous visit. More then I can say for the
bulk of the collection.
I'm also awaiting the arrival of a video of "Trolley Museums" I
ordered from Mark Feinman. Maybe then, I'll see the R-16 being
towed, to say the least.
Also, I've been informed that JTC #358 has been seen in service,
never seen it operate either.
But, to keep my pressure under control, I drive to Branford from
Kerhonkson. Not too keen on visiting "Mausoleums", prefer to get
juiced up.
;-) Sparky
That things MOVE, and under watts for tots at Branford is one of the reasons why I gladly joined down yonder ... had been keeping my eye on Kingston's site for quite a while seeing no movement there either. It's a pity since Kingston isn't all that terribly far from here, certainly not the religious haj that travelling to Branford is from up here.
When I saw the condition of the R4 down there at Kingston though, it broke my heart. That was the last time I went back there also. Somewhere in the mid 80's ... then I came up to Smallbany and saw what the State Museum did to 1801. When I saw that 1689 was not only cleaned up, but RAN, I knew I had to throw my lot in with BERA just to make sure there's an Arnine SOMEWHERE that still moves. Running her was a special treat! :)
I'm also awaiting the arrival of a video of "Trolley Museums" I
ordered from Mark Feinman. Maybe then, I'll see the R-16 being
towed, to say the least.
Sparky, I mailed it this past Tuesday (11/26). You should get it, I guess, on Friday.
The R-16 was towed by Whitcomb #9 on a fantrip for some railroad group (name escapes me at the moment). It was a very slow ride. We couldn't ride the entire ROW past the museum (not the Kingston Point direction - the other way) because we couldn't get enough traction ... grass was too high on that damp morning.
--Mark
Mark,
The tape arrived today, [Monday, December 2], my regular postman
probally held it since he knew we were in the North Country.
I have viewed your footage of Branford and Kingston, thus far,
other errands to run and read this message board.
Having other ventures in 1994, I'll admit I missed one of the
better 'New York Days', with the location of certain cars.
The S.I. car & the B.M.T. Standard on Sando Siding, the "Minnie"
on display in the main viewing area on Track 13. Also recognized
some of the voices on the runs [foamer & museum personel].
The run to Kingston Point and the participants was intriguing to
say the least, recognizing three Branfordites, who where there,
[2 of whom are SubTalkers, also]. I've been to Kingston Point
on 120, but never in the opposite direction on the trackage they
access to. As to the slow speed, I'll be quite honest, I'm
flabbergasted at the amount of track that was covered. And with
a smoking diesel.
Also being younger than I and having more 'Chutzpah' to climb
aboard and do the interior shots. I'll finish viewing the balance
[Seashore] at my leisure. Very tight eiditing between footage,
at first, you had me wondering when Kingston had gotten Boston
Orange Line Cars, till I realized the change in location.
But, I am really enjoying the footage, being an insider at the
three museums in question and getting a rail videographers view.
The one thing about 6398 that has me ROFL thou, the end signs
facing the flat car, remained set for "GG" Church Avenue for the
entire trip, while the others were rolled.
This is becoming a rant, I'm outta here
;-) Sparky
October 1999 seems like a distant memory.
The day I went with Jeff H. to TMNY, I got qualified on Car 4573 for the first time at BERA. This was after months of procrastination (LOL). George B. qualified me on that old Brooklyn Beauty.
After we got through riding 6398, Jeff and I were in the shop observing Thurston's PCC Car #1000.
-Stef
Well, some R-16s DID pinch hit on the GG for a few months in 1966-67. Maybe 6398 was one of them.
>>>"Well, some R-16s DID pinch hit on the GG for a few months in 1966-67. Maybe 6398 was one of them."<<<
Very possibly it did. On the tape, one of the riders asked about
the double e [EE] and later in the tape the side signs are set for
EE Broadway Local, Continental Avenue to Whitehall Street.
IIRC, from rolling signs in my youth, weren't the R-16s equipped for
all IND routes and only the BMT Eastern Division as delivered.
[A thru M]???
;-) Sparky
Well, the 50 cars that ran on the A in the late 50s had A signs in addition to the BMT numbers. Not sure about the other IND markings. The story goes that the 32 R-16s loaned to Jamaica Yard in 1966 had GG signs spliced into their route curtains along with Continental Ave. and Smith-9th St. on their destination curtains.
Steve,
The mystery continues. After viewing the useum hopping tape from
Mark Feinman, the "GG" route sign 6398 looks like an original from
arnine/ten with the GG
on top of Brooklyn
Queens
The EE on the side route sign was a definite later add on, most
likely, when the 50 R-16s went to Jamaica. Later in the tape,
the opposite end routing was changed to simply QJ.
IIRC, prior to Chrystie Street, seeing KK Nassau St Local and
K Nassau Street Express routings besides the J/JJ, L/LL, M/MM
on R-16s???
;-) Sparky
Glad you enjoyed the video.
And as for the "tight editing", how's about *no* editing? :) At least, not yet. Need $$$ for good editing equipment.
I can't explain why 6398 was signed as "GG". Maybe someone was thinking of you though :)
--Mark
You have my deepest sympathies, I only work on the cars. I read of more complaints than I have fingers on getting newsletters out. Time for a board change.
It's sometimes hard to keep a positive attitude when there are folks around you who are negitive about everything or you see jobs that need to be done but you already have a full plate.
>>>"Time for a board change"<<<
When was the last time, they had a board change at TMNY? If ever!
:-( Sparky
There isn't much we can do at the moment about that. Central Hudson gave us a hard time over rail bonding and electrification, the yard is being electrified at a very slow pace, we don't have enough co-ordinated volunteer attendance when we need it most, so the best we can do is run the same cars around. Perhaps one day, we can tap off the traction motors of the #9 to drap it around, but until we hit Lotto, we do the best we can with what we have at hand.
The best thing to do is have faith.
-Stef
It was nice to ride 6398 back in '99, even if she wasn't running under her own power. You've done a great job fixing her up. Way cool! Seeing a whitcomb in action was a big deal. TMNY should try that again....
-Stef
Stef,
Glad you knew about this event in 1999. I as a member of 20+ years
in good standing did not. TMNY DOES NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ITS
MEMBERSHIP. Been a member for 25 years and the communication is
non existent TO SAY THE LEAST.
;-) Sparky
That can be worked on. Communication is a must.
-Stef
I'm not a member of TMNY and I don't remember how I found out about it!
--Mark
Right here on SubTalk!
-Stef
Wish I was in a position to help, and yeah, I don't miss leaving Central Headache country. When I lived in New Paltz, we had one of their execs as a neighbor and this guy was a genuine piece of work. Hope no offense is taken by my sadness over the situation. After 30 years away from the Arnines, I really got my yayas at Branford wrapping it again. SO nice without the TA folks to deal with, just Unca Sparky who likes to consider himself as a hardnose trainmaster, but compared to what I had to report to, he's a softie. :)
>>>"we don't have enough co-ordinated volunteer attendance when we need it most"<<<
MAYBE IF YOUR INNER CIRCLE WOULD GET OFF THEIR DEAD ARSES AND
PUBLICIZE TO THE MEMBERSHIP THAT SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, YOU
MAY INTEREST SOME TO PARTICIPATE.
SAME SHEET, DIFFERENT DAY, OH its this, NO its that, well we
would if we could, but no one comes. BEEN THERE DONE THAT
FOR A QUARTER CENTURY ALREADY AND ITS THE SAME PUCKING
UNSATISFACTORY LINE OF COMUNIQUE. BLANK AIR.
TIME TO CHANGE THE TUNE.
you have a select groups of self righteous buffoons, you receive
what you seek in assistance ZILCH ... NADA ... NIET ... ZERO.
:-( JOHN SIKORSKI
TMNY #424
The so called "Brightliners" [R-32s] were pretty good cars before rebuilding. They're probably the best cars that the T/A has ever had. They'll be around longer than perhaps anything that the T/A has ever had since the bodies are entirely made of stainless steel. The R-38/40/40M/42/44s have some carbon steel and will not last as long. Budd planned well when they built the R-32s.
#3 West End Jeff
They'll be around longer than perhaps anything that the T/A has ever had since the bodies are entirely made of stainless steel.
Actually, Budd had to get a waiver to build them that way. The TA spec called for a carbon steel frame. Budd ate the cost differential. Had the cars been built as designed by the TA, they would be history.
You are certainly right. Now that you mentioned it, the T/A wouldn't have had the sense to have a stainless steel frame even though it lasts longer. They simply do not use their HEADS!! when it comes to things that make sense.
#3 West End Jeff
Too bad the "lemon law" didn't exist in 1955.
I'm still stumped as to why the R16's IRT twin, the R17, never had the same kinds of problems from the day they were delivered as well.
Did a ball peen hammer help at all?:)
You had to manually coax a door leaf on 1689 while it was waking up last month. Then again, it hadn't fully charged yet.
Nope, Ball Peins were IND issue. SLEDGES were BMT issue. :)
As to 1689's door stickies, it wasn't the air pressure. 20 pounds (which we had LONG before then) was more than enough. Nope, that door I had to fix was the ordinary everyday experience. That's why as you were blowing pipes on Arnines in the yard, you'd kick in the door ops, do your cap slaps on both sides, open them up, walk the train, enable on the other end, close up and walk back and see what opened, what didn't, and what stuck.
That's the REASON why you got 30 minutes "prep time" before rolling your pig down the ladder and into revenue track. You'd check your doors, see what opened, what didn't, and see if you could trust it before cutting it out. I showed you that little bit of the preps for a good reason. You could TELL if you could trust the doors by how they behaved on a cold train. That cabside door was the one that ended up facing Avenue L for Branford's subtalkers that day. I considered it a critical.
I gave it the push and the pull, and could tell by the lack of a groan or resistance that it was just grease that had jelled and once it got warm, it wouldn't. Arnines would be taken out by newspapers in the track, junk, fallen rollers or other VERY tangible (feelable) failure modes. That door had air, there was no leak, no resistance other than a steady gummy feel, so I knew it was just a matter of the car warming up, so I pulled it shut, got my air puff and KNEW it would be OK ...
All part of what we did for the geese by doing our DAMNDEST to take a bad train out of service where permitted or get an RCI to fix it in the yard BEFORE it went into revenue. That's what the city PAID me to know and do ... and she didn't act up ONCE after I got her warm, cozy and ... uhhh ... well lubricated and excited, not necessarily in that ardor. :)
And that was before the electric brake plug was inserted, right?:)
Nope ... that puppy went in for chargeup if you wanted to move ten cars before the end of the day. Running without it was fine for a single car, maybe a pair but if you went beyond two cars, you really wanted the electric assist. Believe me. :)
uhhhh....did you at least feed her first,like, you know.... dinner?
tell her she smells nice, Kev...
Actually I did, and 1689 smelled VERY nice ... the old subway cars had a very unique smell to them, a delightful bouquet of phenolic, grease and glowing resistance. And 1689 didn't disappoint. :)
I can catch a whiff of those old timers by getting near any of my roll signs.
Nah, that's the GLUE you're sniffing. :)
Neener-neener. Nope, no glue. Bona fide subway aroma.
Ahem ... bona fide "subway aroma" has kept many a laboratory busy for years trying to repilcate it. Once the UN is done, we're gonna bomb the qwap outta that lab. :)
Dead motors, inoperable door leafs. Those typifed the R16 by the late 70's. I wonder what the R16's MDBF was by late 1986. 10 miles? 20 miles?
There was an R-10 with a MDBF of 400 or so miles. 6321's MDBF was something like 1600 miles when it was put out of its misery.
Yes, that insured that if one door was broken, it's neighbor in the next set was also broken.
"Never get them wet, and don't feed 'em customers after midnight" ... the doors on them were particularly troublesome in the moisture and wherever possible, they'd go indoors for snowstorms. I believe they also had propulsion problems when wet as well, but I can only attest to the doors getting flaky from my own experiences with them.
Yeah, the R16's weren't that great outdoors in the cold, but they weren't all that great in the heat as well. In fact, they were lousy in the hot, in the cold, underground and above ground!
I'm sure glad that I left the city when the R-16's were only about 2 1/2 years old. They seemed to perform admirably during those first couple of years. If they were having problems, I was apparently oblivious to them.
6398 has been a very good car since we changed out the door rubbers with those used in the R36s including the foot inserts. One day, when the dampers motors work again.....
6398? Isn't that at Kingston? Is it running under its own power yet or are they still dragging it around with a diesel?
We don't drag it, we just BCO it. We have some shop power, but not enough juice to run the motors.
Yeah, I was mighty impressed by how many watts for tots it takes to move one subway car, especially an Arnine. I take it that substation that they built ain't quite got the oomph as yet. Haven't been to Kingston in almost 20 years, but had heard the rails had gotten bonded in anticipation of electric operation. I expect there's enough for a streetcar on the line, pity you can't roll the R-16 on its own.
Yeah, I'll bet Shoreline's electric bill goes through the roof when subway cars come out to play.
Yes it DOES ... I'd bet they BARELY broke even on all we paid to take here out again and again and again. Seriously, Arnines are COSTLY to run, even on a Sunday when the meter's more subsided. And the wear and tear and other factors all conspired to make the MEMBERSHIP adds about the only few dollars in the pink. All of the FANTASTIC good will Branford generated by letting so may get "handle time on a REAL NYC subway car" is intangible as far as the museum paying their bills goes. They could use MORE money ... don't forget to re-up this year and tuck in a donation in addition if you can AFFORD to in this crappy economy we have until 2005 at least ...
But yeah, our THRILLS weren't cheap, and Branford (www.bera.org) needs some cash still to make up for all our jollies ... after running the Arnine, the tracks needed repair and a good number of ties spit the bit and split ... heavy subway cars DO damage the tracks since it's 90 pound rail out there and TA does 100 pound or more ... THAT is the reason (knowing the realities) that words cannot describe my appreciation of Branfod letting us play ... only cah can show that appreciation, in hopes that they'll let us do it AGAIN! :)
Any reports from the Torontonians about how the Sheppard Subway opening went today? I heard there was a sneak preview on Friday for a few hours.
I had wanted to be there today, but Friday and Saturday weather along the border was not too good.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
See this post from Robert King.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry about my previous posting--I had checked the index for "Toronto" and didn't find anything. Should have looked for "Sheppard," especially since that spelling drives me crazy.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Back in 1955, new subway cars were not something to be taken lightly. The very first R-16 that I rode on was #6407. This car was in the first train of R-16's that was put into service (the 6400's were delivered before the 6300's). 6407 did not even have standee poles when it was delivered. The books all say that it got them later (the first 20 cars had no standee poles).
I was really attached to 6407, only because it was the first of the new cars that I rode.
I really got attached to R-10 #3342 as well because it was the first R-10 that I rode on the Jamaica Line in 1954.
I'm just amazed that people can remember the number of a car that they rode 40 and 50 years ago! I have trouble remembering a number from a train I rode last week.......
November 22, 1964, Cortelyou Road Station on the Brighton Line, and what to my wondering eyes should appear? R32 #3405 - heading a "QB" (today's Circle "Q") train into Manhattan, no doubt in its first days of yeoman service. She's continuing to serve the "A" and "C" out of Pitkin Yard.
wayne
That was a Sunday, which backs up your observation of it being a QB train. The Varrazano Bridge opened the previous day.
July 21, 1965 was a hot, bright Wednesday when we descended to the 4th Ave. line at 36th St for that N ride on those shiny new R-32s. It felt cooler on the 86th floor of the Empire State Building. Too bad my father didn't point his camera west to what was left of Penn Station.
Steve B can remember what he did on a particular date, and I can remember special car numbers. I guess it helps that I have loved trains all of my life.
I have no recollection of the number on that first R-32 I rode on back in July of 1965. Car numbers and marker lights were some of those things I never paid any attention to.
If you were a little bit older, you would realize how important the marker lights were to the average rider in identifying his train.
You're right. Front end signs had become firmly entrenched by the time I began riding on the subways, so naturally that was the first thing I looked for. With the BMT standards on the Canarsie, it was a case of let's-just-get-there-and-bail.
When I came back in 1984 after a four-year absence, I jotted down as many marker light combinations as I could based on what I saw.
Hello, all. I heard that there was "police activity" at 125th Street on the A/B/C/D Line this afternoon (Sunday). Can anyone here please tell me what was the reason for this "police activity"?
- Lyle Goldman
Can be for any reason for the police to be there.........
I meant for this particular instance.
- Lyle Goldman
12-9 at 125th Street. Non-employee.
Peace,
ANDEE
What does "12-9" mean? Thank you.
12-9 is the radio code used when there is a person/passenger under a train.
OTHER "12" CODES
Peace,
ANDEE
I've known those codes for some time, but I can't get why the code '12-4' isn't used. Any ideas?
I think because it sounds too much like 10-4
Yesterday Sunday, 24 a coustmer told a L line T/O that there are a cat inside a garbage bag on the train at Broadway Juction. The T/O took the bag off the train but did not open it, becouse he was scard that the cat might jump at him. So I opened up the bag. Inside was a I would said no more then a 6 week old kitten. I was so scard that it did not want to even leave the bag.
I would have taken it home but my wife dose not like cat to much.
There is a good new any way. I Extra-List C/R took it home. He still had two more trips to do so he put it inside a C/R cab of the gap train at the Junction untill he cleared.
He said he aleardy had a name for it. It was going to be "Third Rail", I thought I would have called it "Junction" if I was able to take it home. But anyway it going to have a good long life thank to the C/R.
Robert
It's amazing that some people are cruel enough to just abandon a kitten in a bag on the subway of all places.
True, but one person's garbage is another one's jewels ... back shortly after I moved upstate, went into business with a true shady character in Poughkeepsie running a TV repair and reconditioned set sales place (Recon TV if anyone from Po'Town remembers) ... growing up in the Bronx, I couldn't BELIEVE how this rube shafted me in that business, but I digress ...
One day, this emaciated kitten snuck into the shop, it was a sorry looking little puff ball black cat of mongrel background. It was flea-bitten, scroungy and limping and couldn't have been more than a few weeks old. TINY little cuss. My partner "Jake" tried to kill it with the shop broom for invading his turf and I decided to "adopt" it. As I learned by the cat's behavior, this little sweetie had been ABUSED before it sought the safety of our TV shop and cowered under one of the shelves hissing and just plain flipping out.
Nancy and I decided to take "Stupid" home and while she was not a well cat (highly schizophrenic and dependent on the "mood of the day" whether she'd cuddle you or cut you up) she lived to be 17 and died of kidney failure at a ripe old age. I *loved* that little kitty even if she whizzed all over our apartment, cut the furniture and carpets to ribbons and sent German Shepherds away in absolute terror. She was a really COOL cat and she lived a happy life.
Here's hoping that that conductor enjoys a wonderful friend for life and hopefully that little kitty didn't go through the trauma OURS did before someone spared them from all that. Mew. :)
I have a TA cat myself, a regular basket case. "Subway" was rescued from the Westchester yard about 3 and a 1/2 years ago. Really good looking cat, but an absolute moron. Interesting to note that when I took him to be spayed the only time he was quiet was when we were on the D train.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. There's sometyhing about that D train. Hell, it was the ONLY place I could SLEEP. Locked myself in a cab for my TA time and slept even better! Bonus ride if it was an Arnine. :)
Only "She" gets spayed, "He" is altered or neuter.
As a cat owner of many years (and many cats) I know! Once I adopted a kitten from my friends cat, he told me it was a female, taking him on his word I took the cat to vet to be spayed. I got a call a hour later telling me my cat was a He. As others have mentioned, he became a little spooky also, the cat spent 6 months as a girl, 30 mintues as a boy and the rest of his life as a gelding! By the way, I initially named the cat Ruffian after the great but tragic filly. I keep the name even after she became a he. Ruffian pasted away in 1988 at 13 years of age.
For all you cat haters (and I *KNOW* you;re out there) ... some compensation for having to sit through those of us who loved our little kitties some solace ...
http://www.franken.de/users/wurm/madworm/html/deadcat.html
Kitty lovers, DON'T click above ... for PeTA types, you're invited upstate, bring some simulated blood, there's MILLIONS of critters running around up here WEARING FUR! Oh, the humanity ...
i think you meant passed away. i never saw animal pasted away.LOL
Nah, our Pony Express "tell-a-communications" retirees get PASTED. And you thought Elmer was a bull. :)
No, he was just twying to catch that squewy wabbit.
Sorry about the typo, they happen!
I have the book 101 uses for a dea cat. My sister gave it to me as a gift 21 years ago. It shows some interesting uses for when kitty has used up its 9 lives.
#3 West End Jeff
I have the book 101 uses for a dead cat. My sister gave it to me as a gift 21 years ago. It shows some interesting uses for when kitty has used up its 9 lives.
It was followed by "The Cat's Revenge - 101 Uses for a Dead Human."
Now that's a book i would buy!!!!!!!!!
There are some very interesting uses for a dead human when you put your mind to it.
#3 West End Jeff
I used to have an orange cat named Garfield, and the name truly represents his laziness. Sadly, he died Febuary 2, 2002 on Groundhogs Day. He was only 8 years old.
They are amusing little characters, and it seems none of them last long enough. :(
I'm glad the cat is going to get a good home. You don't know how quickly you can become attached to them; I just lost my cat Oscar on November 12, to a hemorrhage - he was 14 years old - and we buried him out in Middle Island pet cemetery. One of my other cats (Melissa, age 15) is ailing - she's got cancer, not expected to live much longer.
wayne
Sorry to hear about your kitties, Wayne. I lost two of mine in the past year to kidney failure. One was 16-1/2 years old, the other was 11-1/2 years old. That left me with the 7 year old that I brought home from the cat shelter where I volunteer. And two weeks ago, for some odd reason, I stopped into the county animal shelter and found the cutest 2 year old little "Morris" type cat. Didn't take me but maybe ten minutes to decide he was coming home....and he acts like he's been here all his life now.
HEH..yea I know ALL to well about getting attached to the little SOBs. I lost one, that I had for about 10 years, in a fire about 3 and a 1/2 years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry to hear about your lost, You must have missed your cat alot. My grandmother used have a 7 year old female siamese who died from some mysterious illness.
Mine was 10 years old and lost to smoke inhalation. I still haven't gotten over it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I understand how u feel. Its just so hard to lost something/someone that u grew up with and attached to. I once had a golden retreiver named skippy. He was everything to me. He was funny. He goes everywhere with me, eat and sleep at the sametime with. He even sometime goes out by himself and comes home at certain time. One day, three years ago, I came home from school, skippy was waiting to go outside, so I had skippy to waited for me outside and he does wait for me. AT one point I when into the kitchen and grab bottle of spring water. later, I heard and saw couple kids teasing skippy and scared him. I ran out cursed the crap out of these kids. Then skippy was upset and I don't what they said to him. He then ran into street and the appoaching car speeding down the street and ran him over. The Driver stopped had the car and offer me help. Together we rush skippy to animal emergency room, later that day doctors had tried successfully and unable to revive him. That night when I losted skippy, I felted my whole world came crashing down on me. I felted his death was my fault cause I lefted him outside by himself at the wrong time. Skippy was a good dog and if he goes outside, he always waited for me to go with him. Next day the parent of those kid came over and offered me some money and apology from their kids. I told them "I'll except the apology and it gonna take some time. I won't except the money. The money doens't bring back skippy." Even As today, the greatest memory of Skippy and I had, are still with me everywhere. I'm still brag about skippy. I'm still trying to put this past away. I know that Memory like this that I grew with will never go away. Skippy was my 10 years old buddy.
Yes, that's what I meant, neutered. Thanks for the correction. As a lifelong cat person I should be ashamed of myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
No scratching post for you - for week!!!
lol
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't be ashamed....you should feel commended for spaying or neutering, whatever the case may be. Too many unwanted pets get dumped -- as what started this thread.
Yeah, I love my "Subway" but, he is the stupidest cat of all time.......mew.
Peace,
ANDEE
I loved my Candy, she use to wake me up every moring, even if i did not have to go to school. She was my first. Then Cotten Ball came about two weeks after Candy. We took him home when we took her to get fixed. Then we got Lucky about 3 years later after finding him on a campground we went to alot. He was the only cat that I now who could bark like a dog. My parents still have two cats at hoem with them and they are getting up in age. I misses them all, and think about them from time to time, and get a tear in my eyes from it.
Robert
>>>>He was the only cat that I now who could bark like a dog.<<<
I'll go you one better, my cat retrieves, really!
Peace,
ANDEE
As long as it ain't MOUSE....
Do we have any meow mix here?
Coincidence, I named my dog Ruffian after the great filly. To this day I regret missing the race with Foolish Pleasure that killed her. I was driving a cab then and actually had a fare to Belmont Park but did not stay. I deadheaded back to Manhattan and missed one of the greatest races of all time!! By the way, my dog Ruffian is 12 now.
Yeah, I love cats myself - it seems that most people who have cats found them somewhere outside when they were only a few weeks old. At least that's how we got ours. We were coming home one night in 1996 and some kids from across the street were all huddled around and they called us over. They were huddled around this tiny little furball, who was munching on a can of Fancy Feast the kids had gotten for it. They asked us if we were interested. Naturally my parents and I snatched that sumbitch up and she's still kickin (and clawin) today. She is probably a tortous (sp) - mostly grey with some white on her undercarriage. Her name is Mimi (named after the great jet-black Mimi, my grandmother's cat who lived to see 24 years and called it quits in 1994 or so).
I tell you something, although it probably varies between individual cats, these creatures do not loose their hunting-gathering instincts, no matter how domesticated you try to make them.
I agree. I have 2 cats that I used to tease with a laser pointer since they were little. I would have them running across the house back and forth and have them jumping halfway up the walls after the red dot. One day there was a mouse loose in the house. Lets just say they caught the mouse. A few things were knocked over. And the cats agreed with Mr Jink from Pixie and Dixie days. They hated mieces to pieces. And they left a few for me to clean up later.
Ever notice which end they leave you as a gift? :)
When I saw what was left, it looked more like leftovers.
Ours only ate HALF the mouse ... bingbong would wake me up with a cheery "mouse butt" warning that it was time for me to extricate the remains and dispose of it properly. :(
I'm glad that a good home has been found for the Canarsie Line train cat. Hopefully it will have a long and healthy life. Now it will give me something to think about the next time I ride the subways. MEOW!
#3 West End Jeff
I love cats but I am very allergic to them. :(
Ah.. Ah.. Ah.. Choo!
(I'm allergic too... had several over the years, got the first one right after a long distance move and attributed my allergies to the climatic difference... discovered, after many years, that it was the cats. So now I've got three dogs.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a kid I use to rail fan the Canarsie Line. One Saturday morning while rail fanning on an R7 train passed East 105 St, I witness a dog on the track as the train made the curve just before the climb. With the speed of the train picking up we were unable to stop in time. The trained made a sudden halt and the motor man looked under the train and then got the train going again.
Well Im glad theres a happy ending to this story. I hope that the C/R and cat have found new friends in each other....
I adopted a cat from the Humane Society a few years ago. I doubt he was ever anywhere near a subway in the six months before I got him.
--Brian
Nice story. It's thanks to people like that C/R that those abandoned pets have a second chance.
Thats nice to hear that the C/R is going to care for the cat but the question is how it got there. Just another day in the New York City subway system. Only in New York do these things happen.........
>>>> Only in New York do these things happen......... <<<
Not true, cats are abandoned all over this great nation of ours, at an alarming rate I might add.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm talking about finding odd things like a 'stray' cat in a subway car in the subway. Only things like that could happen in New York.
Since retirement, my wife and I have become volunteers at the local SPCA. Our primary work is to handle the cats and kittens in hopes of helping them become more accustomed to people, and as a result to be more adoptable.
We have worked with some ideal family type pets. Sometimes we would miss a particlar cat or kitten, but we have learned not to ask about it because it has either been adopted or put down because its time ran out. A lot of times, the folks at the shelter will volunteer the information that someone has been adopted; we just have to think the worst concerning the others.
Despite the fact that it is heartbreaking to see those poor animals waiting to be loved by someone, it is a very rewarding experience to know we have in some way made their lives more pleasant just getting them out of their cages and paying attention to them.
i work with a rescue group here in jersey. i heard most stories from the baby is coming, we are moving and can't take it. the best thing you can do it have it fixed. there are low cost clinics all over. we have one in hillside nj if you need it. good luck with the kitty
Yeah, we hear a lot of the "We're moving!" excuses too....gee, they take the kids, why not the cat? The co-ordinator of our shelter started getting wise, she started askign for addresses, and then would check to see if they really DID move about a month later. So far she caught two that really didn't move -- and gave them hell!! Too bad for them, their cats found better homes!
I have moved across this country TWICE with the felines in tow. And they loved watching the scenery go by!
Where I go, my cats go.
Peace,
ANDEE
In May 1993, I was shocked to see a stray dog walk off a Jamaica-bound J train at Forest Parkway. Being the avid animal lover I am, I took him home.
This poor dog was abused and or neglected. He could hardly walk. I would swear he was near suicide (I'm a firm believer that dogs are simply people with no language, that they feel emotions). Needless to say, I scooped him up and took him home. Since I had 2 dogs already, I couldn't keep him. He improved after being fed, watered and bathed. He was a cute little dog, but he had obvious problems. I took him to North Shore (they know me well there) where I found out he was deaf, old and diabetic. Thankfully, he still found a home with a woman who specializes in adopting special-needs pets. He didn't have much longer to live, but at least his final months were happy and safe.
BTW, I did name him Jay, for obvious reasons.
Isn't the name "Third Rail" copywrited by rapidtransit.net?
I have been studying the budget crisis facing the MTA and have formulated a simple plan that will eliminate the deficit and produce an actual surplus:
1. The greatest money drain on the system is caused by the excessive lighting on the 142's & 143's. I suggest scrapping the entire flourescent system and replacing it with more cozy 25 watt bulbs strategically placed over the entranceway into each car.
2. Next to go in the new equipment is the automated station announcing system including the station locator board. Eliminating the "Watch the closing doors" annoucements will also cut down on the 200% increase in psychiatric ward admissions since the new equipment's introduction.
3. Scrap all the high intensity bulbs in the blue emergency lights in the tunnels and replace them with 25 watt frosted bulbs.
4. Eliminate all the transitional lighting which wastes millions of dollars. Their effect can be achieved more naturally and economically by having all trains reduce speed to 2 mph when undergoing a transition in lighting intensity.
5. Millions of dollars are wasted in media campaigns aimed at informing customers of service changes. Just hang up plain white signs on the car windows and allow the natural learning curve to accustom customers to the changes.
6. Bring back the system of deferred maintenance of the 1970's to save hundreds of millions of wasted dollars. This will have the additional benefit of hastening the removal of the newest equipment which will quickly fall apart, if millions aren't spent on programs to constantly rebuild them.
7. Sell all the subway cars to the department and other retail stores, who will then transform a 10 car train into a moving store, with each car housing a different department.
8. Likewise space on the station platforms should be leased to street vendors who can sell inexpensive rolex watches and pirated videos or run 3 card monty games.
9. Reduce Transit Transit's $200 million production budget, by eliminating all monthly programs except the annual holiday show and its heart warming sing along. I think including railfans in the production would finally unite the entire rapid transit community.
10. The MTA should revise The Map every day, print a limited run of 1000 copies which will not be given to customers, but instead sold on EBAY to unsuspecting out of towners and obsessive railfan map collectors.
If all of these steps were followed, the MTA's deficit would be eliminated and the resulting surplus could offset at least half of the city's projected $5 billion shortfall.
That's definitely a GREAT start as the "Target" boat docked in the river has already demonstrated. But perhaps the LARGEST cost in the transit system is "propulski" ... I learned the hard way at Branford just how MUCH a single car eats in electricity. This is perhaps *THE* largest cost the Transient Authority has!
If the TA would like to save GOBS of money, I would add to your proposition that the motors be removed from EVERY truck on every carbodsky and replaced with a CHAIN DRIVE. Pedal assemblies connecting to the chain drive could then be positioned at each seat and around each pole in subway cars with sprocket drives to each "master chain" which would allow the customers to provide the propulsion for the subway cars throughout the system, saving BEAUCOUP DINERO in electricidad.
Customers would also benefit by the exercise in commuting to work, using foot power Flintstones style in moving trains, and with a little bit of inspiration, could move subway cars in excess of 60 MPH through the tunnels if so inspired with serious peddling, far exceeding the capacity of shunt windings which have been removed, permitting trains to finish a trip in record time. Of course, handgrips would also be required so that customers could apply braking as required to avoid overshooting their stop and ending up in another borough.
Train Operators would then assume the role of "team captains" (with stripes on the uniform) and would use the PA system (powered through powerful pneumatics with captain's whistle) to inform the customers as to when to pedal and brake. Beakies would be positioned throughout the train to note slackers and drop them between cars if they don't carry their load.
Definitely we have the makings of a win-win here that will not only save the subways, but cure obesity as well! I really think you're ON to something here, buddy! :)
I could perhaps be one of those who could help to PEDAL one of the trains. Though I have a minor cleft palate, I'm otherwise as FIT as anything at 5' 9" and 145 lbs. Then if something gets STUCK underneath a car I can crawl underneath quite easily and actually MOVE myself on my SHOULDERS! while I'm lying down on my back. If someone is lying on the floor of the train and is in the way, I can just JUMP over them to get to where I need to go. If they have to use the "strongarm" brakes or switches, I can move them quite easily with my powerful arms. Sometimes the switches can be another matter, I just don't have enough mass to keep myself from losing my footing. I'm powerful enough to pull myself off my feet when i'm pulling or pushing at something very hard.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Kev, you wouldn't be only person with thunder thighs then!:)
'bout TIME ... and think of all the pounds people could lose powering the trains? With all those unused "B ends" on so many cars, they could install showers for the sweaty ... and with every "customer" giving their all in "people's service of propulsky" then there'd be "D train PRIDE" ... "I gave it my all and my train passed YOUR train" kinda NYC pride ... there are SO many possibilities, PRAISE that pesky wooden skee-ball! :)
Yeah, I can just see people on an express trying to outpedal a local.:)
The return of the Hot Dog Vending machine is hungryly awaited by the masses of TA employees and riding public. They must be accompanied by the wax paper cup soda machines to bring true flavor back to the bowels of the city.
avid
[7. Sell all the subway cars to the department and other retail stores, who will then transform a 10 car
train into a moving store, with each car housing a different department.]
I like it ! Some suggestions:
- Macy's train, kids could see Santa on their way to school. And kids on the platform could get a peek at Santa by just standing there as the train went by.
- Victoria's Secret train, oh that would be a popular one
- Stop & Shop ...hey would won't have to STOP for this one.
If the TA ran a Victoria's Secret train, I'd REJOIN UMD TWU100 and refuse my paycheck! :)
I like the creative feedback this idea has been generating.
I think we could keep the operating room style lighting in 1 car of every 142/3 trainset. Part of the car would be a fully equipped mobile emergency room capable of treating the severely injured should the train either derail or turn into a blazing inferno. The other part of a car could be used as medical offices for medical professionals. For example, mass transit dentists could fit you with an upper or lower plate for $100 while you were going to work. Dermatologists could remove moles, warts and age spots while you were reading the morning paper.
Whatever you do, don't slow the trains down anymore.:)
OH, NO! Not the dreaded Scrolling text!!!!
OOOOHHHHHHHHH
YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!
Michael Jackson and Phyllis Diller would be happy to sponsor a car dedicated to plastic surgery for multi-tasking, always on-the-move professionals.
Hehe
Just keep wacko Jacko away from any kiddies and open windows, I could see him sticking his son out the T/Os window.
Or "wandering troubador" trains, where singers come into the trains with guitars to serenade the passengers and open their guitar cases to collect money ...
Oh, wait a minute... Ooops...
You just might get what you asked for. I was serenaded on a n/b A train a couple of years ago by a group of guys singing the Ballad of Gilligan's Island ad nauseum.
Oh no! Heypaul returns with a vengence! ROTFLMAO!
Wow, Paul is back.... Now this certainly is good news. After that series of posts you made on that other website, a while back, I didn't ever expect you to be posting on Subtalk again. Thanks, Paul, for sharing your wit/2 with us.
How about video displays so you can play train simulator for a price and when not in use for that show advertising commercials.
10. The MTA should revise The Map every day, print a limited run of 1000 copies which will not be given to customers, but instead sold on EBAY to unsuspecting out of towners and obsessive railfan map collectors.
This would actually work! If maps were printed on a limited basis, and copyrighted, their value would skyrocket. Look at any limited edition Jordan sneakers. Instantly $50 dollars more!
hmmmm....................................!
stuff a sock in heypauls mouth ....& charge admission 4 it ..
that would help !
>>>
hmmmm....................................!
stuff a sock in heypauls mouth ....& charge admission 4 it ..
that would help ! <<<
And your ass wonders WHY people attack you......GEEEEZ.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wisdom from Salaam?........The devil must be looking for a sweater.
I got da PROFF!
Kevin, you amaze me. I couldn't find my zipper that fast if I had to go.
Is THAT what got on the sign? :)
It looked like hehh with icicles hanging from it. I was eluding to "Hell Freezing Over" and was amazed as to how fast you pulled up that pix.
Don't mind me, I was just pondering what it might have been that froze into icicles on that sign. All a matter of knowing how to find and where to look, that's what folks pay me to do. :)
Sorry, Kevin, I was at the dentist a while ago. The novacaine is starting to wear off and the tylenol 3 is starting to dull the mind. However, the icicles do look 'white'.
Heh. THERE ya go ... no such luck trying to find an eskimo whizzing ice cubes, but you've got da picture. :)
There was a block station on Conrail's Lyons Falls secondary (Albany Div) in northern ny known as HELL (a real COLD place in the winter)
Yep, heard of it ... although I think I'm going to camp out inside and see how many DOT trucks there are to plow this year. :)
Selkirk yard's gearing up for "winter conditions" and most of my buddies have been called up for blowtorch duty tonight.
There was a block station on Conrail's Lyons Falls secondary (Albany Div) in northern NY known as HELL (a real COLD place in the winter)
Kev, thanks for the Highway sign. But, I still don't know the route :)
Come on up one of these days, we'll get ya there. It's over in Joe Bruno's district. :)
Route 666 South :)
--Mark
I can hear Flip Wilson now: "The devil made me do it! Wooooooooooo!!" (spoken in Geraldine Jones falsetto)
Did anyone notice that the illuminated strip map on the 5 line is wrong?
The map shows transfers to the 2 along the Flatbush Avenue part of the run, rather than the 3. (Or are there future plans to reroute the 2?)
I thought the 2 did run along Flatbush Avenue with the rush hour five?
the 2 doesn't make the transfer announcement at E 238th Street for some reason
The stripmap is correct.
The 2 goes to Flatbush. The 3 goes to New Lots.
You must be thinking of a long time ago when the 2 was a New Lots train.
I'm afraid you're 15-20 years behind the times.
But the strip maps are five years behind the times. Not only do they not show anything post-12/16, they don't show the transfer to the Franklin Avenue shuttle.
So does the strip maps on the 2 and 4 as well.
Don't both the 2 and 5 run there until they split at Franklin?
Sorry Typo, I meant "Don't both the 2 and 3 run there until they split at Franklin?
The strip map IS correct. When was the last time you rode on the number lines? Anyway, the 3 hasn't ran to Flatbush since July 1983, when it made a terminal swap with the 2, which terminated at New Lots.
Prior to July 1983:
3 and 5[rush] ran to Flatbush
2 and 4 ran to New Lots[late nights], although 4's ran to Atlantic Av middays, weekends?, Utica Av rush hours
Now:
2 and 5 to Flatbush
3 and 4[late nights and Sunday mornings] to New Lots
The purpose of the swap was for easier yard access for the 3 at Pitkin Yard although it may have been done to change service patterns as well.
Hope this helps.
The 3 at Pitkin Yard?
I think you mean Livonia.
My fault. Thanks for the correction.
Prior to 7/83 (working off the 1980 map):
2: to New Lots, all times
3: to Flatbush, all times except nights and early Sunday AMs
4: to Atlantic, all times, to Flatbush, rush hours, nights, and early Sunday AMs, to Utica, evenings and weekends except early Sunday AMs
5: to Bowling Green, all times except nights, to Utica, rush hours, to Atlantic Avenue, middays
Pitkin Yard serves the A and C lines. Livonia serves the 3 (and 4 and 5 layups).
Damn it sucks not having the older maps. Anyway, thanks for the complete info.
The 3 at Pitkin yard? You mean Livonia Yard, although Pitkin Yard is a few blocks from Livonia Yard. (Linden Blvd via B15,20 buses.)
Upon taking the W train a few days ago, I looked at the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge to see the progression of the work. The Side Closest to Manhattan seems to be arleady painted and strenthened, and alos the new walk way seems to be installed throughout most of the bridge. Most of the tracks are gone now and only the trackbed exists. But the progress is going along very fast, and I see the early 2004 finish date as actually happening. With this, soon we can have full manhattan bridge service. Anyone still wish to bet against the Early 2004 date? From the progress seen so far I say we might see everything done by late 2003, in which the MTA will be more then happy to continue service and bring back the normalcy to the 6th Avenue line and the D and B lines.
I believe that the projected finish date will be met.
--Brian
Anyone still wish to bet against the Early 2004 date?
My prediction say that the project should be done around and between NOV 2003 and MAR 2004. AND The full 2004 Manny B service plan may be announced by as early as fall 2003. Thats my prediction based what I've seen on the Manny B work progress.
I say Jan or Feb 2004 the latest but the earliest I see it finishing is late 2003. If the south side had been open in 1995 and not left to deteriorate from 1991-1992[and the 80's], this project would have been done by 1997-1998 but the only con with the '95 plan was that trains ran on the north side during the rush hour[and in turn caused the 3rd rehab project]. Plus, I still have the 1995 special Manhattan Bridge map :-D. I can't wait for the bridge to be fully open for the first time since 1991[hopefully].
December 1990.
My guess is they'll reopen the bridge to correspond with the reopening of Stillwell, with the hopes that the network will be stable from that point forward for at least a decade. Note that the entire BMT southern division, save the Culver which is now IND, will have new signals by then as far as Atlantic Ave. Hopefully the major work will be taken care of for a while.
We on the Culver, however, have not yet begun to be nailed by signal jobs.
We on the Culver, however, have not yet begun to be nailed by signal jobs.
Bergen is getting the first "Solid State Interlocking" whatever that is...
"Solid state Interlocking". Is the name supposed to make it more special or something? Only the MTA.... The interlockings could have been rebuilt already, it got destroyed what 2 or 3 years ago. They should do work more quickly and not slack off like they usually do, which causes budget overruns[ex South Ferry reopening done in less than 7 months along with a full renovation of Cortlandt].
There's no need to rush the Bergen St. interlocking rehab. Do you understand what was necessary to get the Greenwich St. subway up and running in only 11 months? 24/7 work, and they didn't have to deal with maintaining service while the work was being done.
Transistors! Nice to see the implimentation of 20th century technology....wait, isn't this the 21st?
I was thinking they could have a BMT South Grand Reopening ceremony.
Stillwell Ave is scheduled to be completed before the Manhattan Bridge work is done.
The last time both sides were open at the same time was the September-December 1990 "tease".
Thinking about all the subways I've ridden, all the ones in the US are longer than in other countries. Here are some approxmate platform lengths:
US
BART- 700 ft
NYCT- 550-660
MARTA- 600
WMATA- 600
Baltimore- 450
Miami- 450
CTA- 300-400
World (That I know of)
Sao Paulo- 435 ft
London- 350- 400
Toronto- six cars, no more than 450
Montreal- 420
Is there anywhere in the world that has subways as long as the US? Does BART have the longest trains?
Of course, the real question is train length vs. platform length. I know at WMATA---the 600' platforms are capable of accomodating trains of 8-cars, of which they're not running currently. The max right now is 6-car trains which is 450'
Mark
The BART is primarily a commuter train. It runs as a subway through downtown SF, but it doesn't really provide local service. Compared to most commuter trains, I don't think the length is unusual.
BART is classified as a subway (heavy rail) by the people who matter (APTA, FRA, DOT). BART has no access to the national rail network.
On the other hand, you can debate whether BART acts like a commuter railroad, which it does in several ways. But it's still meant to be a subway.
BART is a case that you could argue several ways. If you want to stretch the definition beyond structly urban systems, check out the fully grade-separated LIRR Babylon line, 12 x 85 foot trains = 1,020 feet. I wonder if these are the longest regular service EMU's in the world.
BART is a case that you could argue several ways. If you want to stretch the definition beyond structly urban systems, check out the fully grade-separated LIRR Babylon line, 12 x 85 foot trains = 1,020 feet. I wonder if these are the longest regular service EMU's in the world.
And LIRR certainly *does* run local trains on that line! : )
And LIRR certainly *does* run local trains on that line!
True, but it's not the same as "local" service that a subway would run. The LIRR stops at each town (Rockville Center-Baldwin-Freeport-etc), but it doesn't really provide a service like a subway system (rapid transit) would, stopping at all the major roads along it's path.
For example the Queens Blvd subway line doesn't stop at just:
Elmhurst, Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, etc. It makes many more stops than that. In that sense the LIRR does not run a rapid transit type "local" on the Babylon line - it would have more stops than just the town stops it has now.
actually with the new m-7s the lirr wants to put on 14 car trainsets on the babylon branch because of severe overcrowding on peak trains- trust me i stood for 45 minutes this morning
actually with the new m-7s the lirr wants to put on 14 car trainsets on the babylon branch because of severe overcrowding on peak trains- trust me i stood for 45 minutes this morning
actually with the new m-7s the lirr wants to put on 14 car trainsets on the babylon branch because of severe overcrowding on peak trains- trust me i stood for 45 minutes this morning
actually with the new m-7s the lirr wants to put on 14 car trainsets on the babylon branch because of severe overcrowding on peak trains- trust me i stood for 45 minutes this morning
You only need to push the "Post Message - Click Once" button "Once."
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BART has no access to the national rail network.
BART cannot connect ot the National Railroad network...
It is a different guage!
Elias
>>> But it's still meant to be a subway. <<
Huh?? It depends on what "meant" means (to turn a phrase). You are not suggesting that the developers of BART meant it to be a subway are you? In the bay area it is referred to as "the BART," not the "BART subway." The LIRR also has subterranean tracks but is not a subway. BTW, is the SIRT a subway?
Tom
You're making this diffcult :-)
To borrow the Supreme Court definition of obscenity and apply it to the definition of subways, "It’s impossible to define it, but you know it when you see it."
BART feels both subway and commuter rail-like, and the BART people do market it as commuter rail, but given that it is fully grade seperated, and runs on a headway schedule, I think it pushes it over to the subway side of things.
MARTA isn't normally refered to as the "MARTA subway" either ("MARTA Rail" or "MARTA Train" is what MARTA usually calls it), but it's no doubt a subway system.
Also I don't think just because it goes underground makes it a subway. Miami's "train" is all elevated, but I think most people would still call it a subway. I can't comment on SIR, I've never ridden it, but knowing that only one station has fare control, there are a couple of flag stops, and it uses R44s, that's a tough call. I'm sure "railway" or "subway" could both be right.
This topic (when is a subway not a subway?) has come up before, and I have thought of with six definitional points:
Does it have any underground stations? What sort of rolling stock does it run? Does it run wholly within one metropolitan area? Is it separate (physically and administratively) from the main freight and passenger railways of its country? Does it have frequent service? Does it have grade crossings/on-street running?
A subway has some underground stations, runs heavy EMUs, runs within one metropolitan area, is [almost entirely] separate from the main rail network, has frequent enough services on most lines at most times of day that you don't need to consult a timetable, and doesn't have grade crossings or on-street running.
Suburban rail may or may not have any underground stations, runs EMUs, DMUs, or loco-hauled trains, runs outside as well as inside the metropolitan area, is not separate from the main rail network of its country, has less frequent services requiring use of a timetable on a fair proportion of its routes, and may have grade crossings.
Light rail may or may not have underground stations, runs LRVs or trolleys, runs within one metropolitan area, may or may not be separate from the main rail network, has frequent services, and may have on-street running.
You can probably think of examples that don't fit these definitions -interurbans would be one example, but are there any left? Nor am I sure about the parts of the Boston and Philadelphia systems that use trolley cars. But you can classify most systems using these definitions!
Fytton.
Shouldn't there be something about distance between stations?
If it is over a mile, it looks suspiciously like suburban rail, because then even if you are right on the line, walking to the nearest station can be a burden. This is one of the things that reduces BART's subway characteristics.
If it is half a mile or less, it is much more like a subway or light rail system.
Another aspect of this criterion would be whether the outlying stations tend to have parking lots or garages specifically meant for riders of the system.
If it is half a mile or less, it is much more like a subway or light rail system.
Hardly any subway in the world has an average distance of .5 mi or less.
I think I've come up with a solution:
Instead of average distance, which could be inflated by a few really long segments out of many more short ones, what about seeing distances within the central area? If it were commuter rail, it most likely would have very few stations within a CBD, if any, minus the central station. A subway would be primarily serving the CBD (even if it was catering the suburbs, like BART), so the number of stations within that area will be more than the area commuter rail. This factor would work for cities where the commuter rail runs along subways tracks in some areas (ie, Tokyo), because the commuter rail will skip most of the subway stops while heading to the CBD. When the line is blurred between subway and commuter rail, using this factor usually seperates the systems we "know" to be a subway and what is commuter rail.
Rob from Atlanta's Theory of distinguishing bewteen subway and commuter rail:
Central Business District stations = (subway stations)+(commuter stations)
subway stations > commuter stations
Can anyone disprove my theory, or can we make it into a Law?
Another aspect of this criterion would be whether the outlying stations tend to have parking lots or garages specifically meant for riders of the system.
Having parking lots at the outlying stations make sense no matter what type of system, it's stupid NOT to have them. They allow the system, whatever mode, to extend the service area to places where they don't run. So parking lots shouldn't be a factor.
Remember that theories do not become laws. A scientific law is a description or summarization of what is consistently observed, while a theory is an explanation of what is observed. For example, Newton's law of gravity merely describes how fast objects accelerate when dropped, but they make no attempt to explain the origins of gravity. Einstein, on the other hand, attempts to explain gravity by arguing that matter warps space-time. Hence, Einstein gives us a theory while Newton gives us a scientific law.
Hey, I'm a science teacher! I had to say it!
:)
Mark
OK then, "Rob from Atlanta's hypothesis of distinguishing bewteen subway and commuter rail."
I knew there was something about "theory" that wasn't right, but I didn't want to spell check "hypothesis" :-)
the CBD hypothesis seems correct on first look, but the Metra Electric and tenant South Shore in Chicago provide a partial exception. Two stations directly adjacent the CBD and a third nearby.
Still probably a good indicator.
although BART mgmt always says commuter rail, the ridership patterns say subway west of the hills.
'Course again looking at Chicago, in earlier decades what is now Metra Electric had many more in town stations with very close spacing and much denser headways. Looking at the stops near Hyde Park (51st-53rd, 55-6-7, 58-60, 63d, 67th) which were all active in the sixties is illustrative. And South Shore Line (America's Last Interurban) used to advertise 'six stations in Chicago'
It does provide a local service as it serves the same area as AC Transit does on the east bay.
So taking what you defined, WMATA is the same as BART.
I'm talking about design length which is the potential length a train can be, the US seems to have the longest deisgned subways.
There is an important aspect to this length-of-train discussion. The leadership of the NYC Transit Riders Council (part of the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee, MTA) voices no concerns over OPTO, stating that most other systems are 1-operator. In my opinion, they do not distinguish between NY and systems with shorter trains. I favor the mid-way position for conductors, as on most NY routes, though it requires a human being to look in two directions almost simultaneously!. Asking a motorman to check doors all the way back to the end of the train is, in my opinion, courting problems. I also dislike the LIRR system of a variety of waves forward to a conductor positioned between cars 1 and 2, because I often see cluttered platforms and few conductors passing the wave.
please note that BART has been OPTO from day one, runs the longest US subway trains from these stats. The one difference is all platforms are straight. However, that issue could be easily covered with video monitors for T/O's who presumably have excellent visual acuity.
>>> please note that BART has been OPTO from day one <<<
More importantly, designed to run ZPTO. I am not sure if the onboard attendant manually operaties the doors.
Tom
T/O has door controls which can override the computer or operate directly AFAIK when train is in "manual". And, yes, you are spot on they wanted to run ZPTO. They also tried to do the 'PATH' no station agent trick. That was squelched in a hurry--a mix of union job protection and general rider angst over security in stations.
This concern about length of train vs OPTO (regarding the operator's ability to see all the doors) seems to be uniquely New York worry. Not only does BART run OPTO with very long trains, the London Undergound does so as well - admittedly with shorter trains, but with some acutely curved platforms. LU tends to have staff on the platforms of busy underground stations, but I imagine it doesn't have platform staff on outdoor stations in the suburbs. I think the Victoria Line, which is entirely underground and was OPTO from its inception in the 1960s, was built with CCTV.
The Thameslink service (which I frequently use to get to London) is not a subway, but it has eight-car trains running OPTO and stopping at one underground station (City Thameslink) and one acutely curved one (Kings Cross Thameslink, soon to be replaced by a new underground St Pancras Thameslink station). Thameslink is equipped with CCTV, with the camera pointing at the rear of the train and monitor visible by the driver at the eight-car stopping point. Thameslink is unusual, though; most of National Rail (ex-British Rail) isn't OPTO.
Maybe the design of the doors is an issue? LU's doors squeeze you but don't really damage you if you get a body part caught in them, and the train can't start unless all doors are fully closed. So the safety risk to people who ignore "Please stand clear of the closing doors" is not severe.
This concern about length of train vs OPTO seems to be uniquely New York worry.
I guess length does matter in New York (sorry I couldn't resist).
Seriously though, do they maybe have more TV monitors in Bart or the LU for this purpose? I rode the BART system twice, but don't remember if they had monitors for that purpose. I do remember the platforms being fairly straight though, for the most part.
I never rode the LU, but assume they must have TV monitors on some of the really curved platforms.
LU's doors squeeze you but don't really damage you if you get a body part caught in them, and the train can't start unless all doors are fully closed.
I don't think NY's trains can start either if all the doors aren't full closed.
OPTO is primarily controversial as a union job protection fight. Thus it is not a question at BART (union organized) because it was ever thus, but often bitterly decried on this board by CTA operators who are "doing more work" as opposed to not working because the budget no longer affrds two crew members per train. Similarly SF Muni FINALLY caught up with Frank Sprague and has a single operator running two car LRV sets. Because they previously had "extra" operators in (up to three car trains) who had no duties in most cases, there was some resistance.
From a safety POV, BART and the other "new systems" are mostly 'straight' stations, and if you believe that a NYCT C/O can see five B div carlengths, then a DC T/O can certainly see 4 carlengths(few 6 car trains re operated).
<Because they previously had "extra" operators in (up to three car trains) who had no duties in most cases, there
was some resistance. >>
I think the extra operator was needed on Muni Metro trains when they were using the Boeing cars to operate the doors when they were out of the subway portion, also to collect the fares, I think the doors on the newer Breda LRVs can be operated remotely in either mode, also now Muni Metro uses the Proof of Payment system even on the outside portions, so on-board fare collection is no longer an issue
From a safety POV, BART and the other "new systems" are mostly 'straight' stations, and if you believe that a NYCT C/O can see five B div carlengths, then a DC T/O can certainly see 4 carlengths(few 6 car trains re operated).
The problem with seeing 5 car lengths can be adressed in a number of ways
1)Cameras either on the doors or
2)drive by video where the operator operated the doors from the middle car and drives via a flat panel monitor(or other dispay aparatus ex: video googles that are clear when power is off) the projects a composit of actual video and infrared enhanced video.
Both techniques will rrequire additioal capitol investment but would signigficantly.
OPTO hurts the union leaders paychecks more then the operators pocketbook.
OPTO is needed in NYC. Cost are rising for both ta employees who need a raise to keep up with inflation and the TA who need to cut the sky high overly labor internsive operations
I don't see the safety hazard with CCTV; in fact, it can be a safety enhancement. Others will disagree.
My greater concern with OPTO is time. If the T/O has to get up and walk across the cab twice at each offside station, dwell times increase.
OTOH, with CCTV, there's no particular reason the door controls for both sides couldn't be next to each other, accessible from the T/O's seat. (And we can get our railfan windows back!)
Hong Kong KCR East Rail Train: 928ft/282.84m (12-car)
Hong Kong MTR Urban Lines Train: 584.5ft/178.16m (8-car)
Hong Kong MTR Lantau Lines (Tung Chung Line): 530.5ft/161.7m (7-car)
Hmm... Seems to be hard to beat the US Standard...
Chicago CTA's Congress line (Forest Park branch of the Blue line) down the median strip of the Eisenhower expressway was built in the 1950s with 600' long platforms, far in excess of the longest trains that the CTA runs (8 48' cars = 384'). Maybe they were just thinking ahead?
-- Ed Sachs
Maybe they had that long State St. subway platform in mind.
A good practical joke: Take a New York visitor to the State Street Subway (around the middle of the platform) and tell him that you want to walk to the first car. You keep walking and walking.
Groan... don't remind me. The fellow who ended up being my best man pulled that one on Mary and I about a month before the wedding. I took it all in stride but she was ready to strangle him!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I already posted this in the R16 thread, but since the question seems to keep coming up ("How were the Brighton Locals that ran to Franklin Avenue on Saturdays in the early '60s signed"), one picture is worth a thousand posts.
Sorry, but it was too blurry to read!!
I was mainly after the "7", which is the main point at issue, but the destination sign says Brighton Beach, however:
This pic is also at Kings Highway, NB local track.
Paul: Brighton Beach was the winter terminal for the Saturday Brighton-Franklin trains. They were extended to Coney Island in the good ole summertime. The #7 is correct as you said. Any service originating at Franklin Avenue Terminal i.e. Shuttle, Brighton-Franklin and Franklin-Nassau would have properly carried the #7 sign.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul: Brighton Beach was the winter terminal for the Saturday Brighton-Franklin trains. They were extended to Coney Island in the good ole summertime. The #7 is correct as you said. Any service originating at Franklin Avenue Terminal i.e. Shuttle, Brighton-Franklin and Franklin-Nassau would have properly carried the #7 sign.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Slight correction to the above. That was based on the 1959 schedules.
The 1962 schedules had all Brighton-Franklin trains terminating at Brighton Beach. That comes from the July 1962 edition of the New York Division Bulletin prepared by a well known sub-talker.
Larry, RedbirdR33
From 1959 onward, the "Sunny Summer Sunday" Franklin-Coney Island expresses were a thing of the past. The only realy reason behind the Saturday Brighton-Franklin local was to be able to provide express service on the Brighton line when the ridership didn't support operating two services all the way into Manhattan.
-- Ed Sachs
that is a rarity. mostly standards ran the franklin to brighton beach run during coney islands heyday.
I could have told you this (actually, I think I did ...)
From 1959 to Jan. 1961, Saturday Brighton/Franklin locals ran Franklin Ave. to Coney Island, using Brighton Local equipment (which was, in those days, Standards).
With the Jan. 1961 service changes, Saturday Brighton Express (Q) service changed to Astoria to Coney Island (basically same as Sunday QB service, but express in Brooklyn), using Brighton Local equipment (initially Standards but soon replaced by R27/30s). The Saturday locals ran Franklin Ave. to Brighton Beach using Brighton Express equipment (Triplexes, signed as #7, via Tunnel -- I don't think you could turn off the Bridge/Tunnel indicators, just choose one or the other). This lasted until the Saturday express service and Brighton-Franklin locals were eliminated (late 1962?)
-- Ed Sachs
This lasted until the Saturday express service and Brighton-Franklin locals were eliminated (late 1962?)
Ed: The schedule effective February 18,1963 ended the #7 Brighton-Franklin Trains.
Larry, redbirdR33
OMG! Where is the fence???
I don't know if this been posted, but I just love the new Black and Decker ad. It features two trains of redbirds (LCL & EXP) on an el shaking an apartment building all day and night. The purpose of the ad is to show how the B&D dust buster is a useful item (just right for giving during the holidays).
Yup, I see that ad on CNN in the morning.
I said"Hey! Lookit the Redbirds!"
Elias
what does a vacuum cleaner have to do woth older subway cars. Oh well, Gimme a space suit and a $2000.00 Nilfisk HEPA vac and I'll suck all the Asbestos right out of a few 'birds so the museum boys can have some more toys to play with. but a B&D isn't good enough for that.
John
Everytime a train goes by the building and rattles it. Things fall to the floor in the apartment. That's where the dust buster comes in. The ad does not state what city it is, but we know, don't we.
BTW The ad is airing nationally, so folks in LA can see what a real train looks like.
I saw the add today, The Redbirds Were Signed For (7) <7> Main Street Flushing. I Thought the <7> Only Runs Peak Direction Rush Hour Byitself?
This is for the LIRR people.In 1992 when the first double decker train came onto the scene,with 2 GP-38s pulling them,on the 5:12 PM out of Jamaica to Port Jeff,there was an engineer who did what I consider the greatest horn sequence with a GP-38 that I ever heard!He would blow the horn,nonstop through New Hyde Park,and through Mineola(at Mineola,he would start the horn at west end of the eastbound platform)it did not matter if he went 70MPh or 30MPH.This went on from 1992 to November of 1993,I have not seen (or literally heard from)this particular engineer since then.In fact,most of the engineers seem afraid to blow thier horns nowadays.If anyone out there knows if this engineer is still around,let me know.If anyone is interested in seeing this particular engineer in action(thanks to the magic of videotape)let me know.
The new DM/DM 30's seem to sound different than the old engines, although someone mentioned here that they have the same horns that the GP38's had, it's just their placement that makes them sound different. Well actually, with the cab units on the west-bounds most of the time, I can't even hear the horns from my house anymore (I only live about 1/2 mile from the tracks). I do still hear the eastbounds, although not as well as before when the old engines were running.
As to the answer to your question, I have no idea, maybe someone else knows. But I believe that part of the reason you don't hear him anymore, or that it seems that the operators don't blow the horn as much is because with the new trains, a lot of the personality that the engineers gave the horns may be lost, especially when they are in the wimpy cab-units on the west ends, that sound no different than the M1's.
maybe he picked another run on the LIRR where he is on a totally different schedule and assignment, or he retired. Was he young when u saw him? maybe he has enough senority to pick a Protect job. Alot of engineers love protect jobs. One engineer i hang out with on LIRR all he has to do is 530-1030am. take SW1001 102 and 104(Orange and dark blue ones) and he sits in harold from 6-10am. if there are no trains that get stuck in LINES 1,2,3,4 then he really doesnt have to do anything but SIT. alot of engineers want a job like that. maybe he could be the 2-10 protector.
I don't recall the LIRR ever using GP-38s to pull the C-1s. Most of the time they were pulled by a pait of FL-9ACs.
This is very true. Weren't they called "Bitanics"?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, they did use two specially fitted GP38's before the FL9's were used. (They also used leased METRA engines for a while also). Here's a photo I took of the GP38's pulling the C1's in July of 1992.
This was when the power car (ex FA2 #608) now power car #3100 was moved to the east end of the consist. When the C1's hit the rails for the first time right after the Metra E8's left, the power car was on the west end. Don't forget the FA unit that was modified with the chopped off nose with the stainless steel skin was the power source for the C1's before the 3 FL9AC's 300-302 came aboard.
Here's where the MBTA wants to spend its capital funds from FY03 to FY08
Is there any way to view the tracks of the LIRR Bay Ridge line from an LIRR train stopped at East NY station on the Atlantic Ave line?
No. You'd have to get off the train and walk a about 1/4 of a block south to ENY Avenue. There you can look down into the Bay Ridge ROW.
Or go upstairs to the L platform and look down.
Uh, I'm assuming the individual wouldn't be interested in paying a subway fare just to look at an underused ROW.
But he might want to incorporate his viewing into a subway ride he'd be taking anyway, in which case he doesn't need to leave the system and pay another fare to reenter.
to our techies: What si the #1 cause of train problems? My guess would be door problems followed by A/C (In summer). Other than doors (if that is number 1) what is the leading trainline (motors, etc.) problem
I'm not a techie but I will say this -- haven't seent a train out of service with door problems forever. In the mid-1980s, it was every day.
was on a r-68 circle q with one of its doors cut out on saturday evening.
I once saw a whole R-44 car cut out, lights and everything.
In the '80s, purple lit cars, dead motors, flat wheels, tripped ground and overload relays, grids glowing, smoke issuing, switch box fires, application no release, release pneumatic application, no P-wire, grounded shoe beam (TM) doors fail to open, doors fail to close, doors fail to exist. Oh yeah, you must want today's cause of train delays. Passenger interference of the doors. What did I leave out Selkirk?
I bailed in 1975, so I never got a chance to see the cars reach complete and utter "critical mass" ... but yeah, that was pretty much it, of course you didn't mention the heaters lighting up the gum wrappers under the seats or in particular what I loved to call "ship to shore morse code indication." :)
By train problems, are you talking about failures that delay trains or cause them to be removed from service or are you referring to any type of mechanical problem?
Any problem that needs repair at some time- even if the train continues for the run, i.e. cut out doors, A/C Failure, etc. I real;ize some problems will allow the train to contine the run until some future time when it will be repaired.
In the purely mechanical sense, door/indication problems are by far the bulk of the work. Overall, though, vandalism represents the majority of the running repair work. This includes door failures caused by customer abuse. A close 2nd is the dreaded (Multiple) BIE.
Thanks. Without specific numbers which may or may not be available, what are the top 10 problems. So far Door/indication is 1, BIE is 2.
Where would A/C rank (in summer)
Drought and a heat wave have fried my brains over here, and 'm incapable of making any intelligent contribution the board. In the area of sillines, on the other hand, I'd be interested in Subtalkers views and recollections about rail transit and railroading themes generally in the Simpsons.
Apart, of course, from Lyle Langley's Monorail, the two that come to mind immediately for me are:
Itchy getting a locomotive engineer's diploma so that he can drive a train over Scratchy;
Mr Burns hosting an employee retirement function at the "Spruce Goose", a wrecked prototype outsized train. The maitre d' was the "Headless Brakeman '
Any others??!!
One couch gag had the family come into a station with a mosaic sign showing it to be Evergreen Terrace, and then they boarded a one-car subway train.
When Bart was searching for Milhouse to buy back his soul, the street sweeper that ran over Bart's bike drove down the stairs of the "Third Street Station"
When Homer was on Taxicab Conversations (Rolling Stones episode, this season's premiere), but didn't remember what happened or how he got home, he said he used some sort of light rail. Lisa replied: "Springfield doesn't have a light rail."
Burns travels by train in a private car, see the episode with Burns's son (played by Rodney Dangerfield).
When they went to New York, the family (except Homer) rides the subway. Bart begs for money by claiming that he was born without tastebuds, then to demonstrate licks a pole, but he just can't contain his disgust. Marge sees an ad for laser wart removal.
In the flashback scene at the beginning of that episode, where Homer is recalling his trip to New York in the 1970s, he travelled to the Harrisburg Coat Outlet for an irregular coat and had to walk from the PABT to Penn Station.
In Kids News, Lisa wanted to report about the old "abandoned" Union Pacific tracks in Springfield, but as she said "The old Union Pacific doesn't come by here anymore," a long freight train passed through.
Brillant!!
Wasn't there also an episode where for soem reason the family had to travel in a freight wagon and Homer had to give a bum a sponge bath??
yeah, there was one where they were in a freight car and homer gave the hobo a sponge bath while the hobo told stories.
and now that I remember it, the time that Bart got a fake license and he went with a bunch of kids to Nashville and got stranded. They tossed their luggage on board but couldn't keep up with the train to jump on.
Also in the thanksgiving episode when Bart destroys Lisa's thing (this will air on Thursday at 6:30PM on WNYW (5) New York), after Bart walks past Burns Manor in the good neighborhood, he crosses a railroad track, and crosses to the other side of the tracks literally and figuratively!
Yup, believe it or not, SNOW! Just watch weather report on the news and the weather channel. There is chances of snow on early or late Wed. If thats that the case, then we will have ourselves the first snow (storm of the year 2002) which that surprising. I guess that TA will have to increases subway and rail service since it will be a mess and difficult on the road for buses and driving according what meteoroligist prediction. UP NEXT, White Christmas!..I guess we'll have to see about that later on.
(Yup, believe it or not, SNOW! Just watch weather report on the news and the weather channel.)
Does anyone remember the last time we had a significant snow in late November? I believe it was 1995. Does eveyone remember what happened next? White Christmas, followed by The Blizzard of '96 in early January. Looks like the drought and warm spell are ending simultaneously. Time to buy a new shovel.
I think this has to do with EL NINO. According to NOAA, El NINO has returned over the summer
Does anyone remember the last time we had a significant snow in late November? I believe it was 1995.
We had some snow and cold weather in October, but then it warmed up for most of November. It is snowing now, but Thanksgiving is supposed to be in the 40's or low 50's.
: ) Elias
"Does anyone remember the last time we had a significant snow in late November? I believe it was 1995"
Nope. We had some signifigant storms in December giving us a white Christmas, and yes, that big blizzard 6 days into '96. But the last November snow occured on Thanksgiving Day in 1989. Coincidentally, that was the year the San Francisco Giants lost the World Series (which they did again this year). -Nick
The snow on Turkey Day in 1989 was about 6" which melted a day later. It ushered in a very cold but relatively dry December, and then a January and February in 1990 which did not result in any major storms, as I recall.
There is NO, (let me repeat: NO) scientific or any other connection between early and/or Thanksgiving snow and what happens later in the season. Zillions of studies have been done on this. What you get, you get. Weather patterns are very random, and day-to-day events are not predictable past about 10 days. Further, the randomness (chaos theory, as it's called) proves that it is impossible to tie today's events or "pattern" to a future one.
I'll be taking Acela Express from BOS-NYC tomorrow (Wednesday). I sure hope that the commercial I heard on WCBS last year pitching the train as "weatherproff" was right!
I'll be taking Acela Express from BOS-NYC tomorrow (Wednesday). I sure hope that the commercial I heard on WCBS last year pitching the train as "weatherproff" was right!
Uhh... would YOU trust that face in the mirror when you get up in the morning? ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You going to be on the radio this weekend? I'll keep an ear out for you if you are, and otherwise I'll make do with Craig and the guys at the Weather Channel. Then again, I listen to the latter group all the time anyway...
I'll be on:
Thursday 5-11am
Friday 5-11am and 4-8pm.
Othertimes, riding the rails!
Transit and Weather Together
OK, I hope you have good things to tell me. Too bad they are making you work on Friday since the trains will be on a weekday schedule. Who is covering Thursday evening? Weather Channel?
Have a nice weekend!
"Making me work?" Nope. I volunteered! Holidays-R-Us when you're a fill-in :-) But I do have a five-hour break midday Friday to ride weekday services.
TWC is doing Thursday afternoon so that Craig and I can be with our respective families.
Sounds good. Have a happy Thanksgiving!
The snow on Turkey Day in 1989 was about 6" which melted a day later. It ushered in a very cold but relatively dry December, and then a January and February in 1990 which did not result in any major storms, as I recall.
Andy: I seem to recall that the winter of 1967-1968 had a lot of snow. Not only did we have a White Thanksgiving but a White Christmas and a White Easter as well.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
IIRC we didn't get any snow to speak of on Thanksgiving Day in 1967. The following day my mother and I went into the city and I experienced a CPW express dash for the first time, on a prewar D train. There was some snow on the ground on Christmas Day while Easter was pleasant.
1968-69 was different. We got belted around Christmas and again in February. There was a big snowstorm on Easter Sunday in 1970. We got home from Montreal the following day and had to dig out our driveway before we could get the car in the garage.
Thanks for the good wishes. My remembrances of those years past are..
1967-68 - about 6" of snow the week after Thanksgiving (around Nov 29 or 30). Don't recall much else about the 67-68 winter season.
1968-69 - about 5" of snow about ten days before Christmas. Then a big storm on February 9 (the infamous "Lindsay" storm) that really paralyzed outlying sections of Queens and Brooklyn.
1969-70: A White Christmas (close to a foot of snow), which postponed an engagement party for my fiancee and me; and then another big storm on March 29 (Easter Sunday). Guess those were good omens because "fiancee" is now wife of 32+ years.
In 1994, I had just gotten a car, and my second longish drive in it was from Ithaca to NYC the day before Thanksgiving.
It had been snowing all night in Ithaca, and it was still snowing in the morning. It wasn't a major snowstorm by Ithaca standards but it was pretty big.
I called the AAA and spoke to someone who confirmed that it wasn't even snowing ten miles south of Ithaca.
Yet.
On the busiest travel day of the year, the snow was traveling too, and it took the same route I did. All traffic was stopped for about 45 minutes somewhere in the Poconos. The snow finally let up around the Delaware Water Gap. Eight hours for a four-hour drive. Good thing it wasn't a Friday.
I spoke to someone who took the Catskills route around the same time. Also eight hours.
Thats upstate New York for you! :-) -Nick
My daughter's driving from Rochester to LI today.....don't envy her.
I hope she made it safely.
We got belted with 18 inches of white stuff in Denver on the day after Turkey Day in 1983. The mayor came up with the brilliant idea of using the city's garbage trucks to pack the snow down on side streets instead of plowing it, figuring it would melt faster once it warmed up after the storm (which is what usually happens out here). Well, that idea backfired drastically a few weeks later when a severe arctic blast kept temperatures below zero for 110 straight hours. All that packed snow froze solid and the side streets remained rutted for months.
We got belted with 18 inches of white stuff in Denver on the day after Turkey Day in 1983. The mayor came up with the brilliant idea of using the city's garbage trucks to pack the snow down on side streets instead of plowing it, figuring it would melt faster once it warmed up after the storm (which is what usually happens out here). Well, that idea backfired drastically a few weeks later when a severe arctic blast kept temperatures below zero for 110 straight hours. All that packed snow froze solid and the side streets remained rutted for months.
Comment: "Never under-estimate The Great Old Mother Nature."
Below 0°F or just below freezing?
I've never been someplace with a temperature below 0°F (Fahrenheit, what a stupid system, we should have used anti-German sentiment to get rid of it in WWII).
I've never been someplace with a temperature below 0°F
In the mid 80's, I remember one or two days in January where we went just under 0°F in New York. I think it was either 1985 or 1986, but don't remember for sure.
I looked up the stats on the Weather Channel. The temperature was -4°F on January 21, 1985.
So I HAVE been in a place with less than 0°Fartenheit, I just don't remember.
It was also -2°F on January 19, 1994, I should have remembered that. That was a snowy winter too.
We routinely get down to -22 or so in December through February around here. Up north where they build 142's, -44 isn't unusual. And there's even daytimes when it doesn't get ABOVE zero in the afternoon. What's nice about -40 or so is that it's the same in C and in F. :)
Selkirk: So long as were telling wild and hoary stories about life in the frozen north I remember a winter that I spent in South Dakota. For nearly a month the temperature did not go above zero. One day the high was minus 10 degrees. It was so cold that the words froze coming out of your mouth and you had to wait for the spring thaw to hear what everyone had said to you.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Heh. That happens up here for a few days at a clip over the winter, alas the words tend to get eaten by the bears prowling on the deck. :)
>>> It was so cold that the words froze coming out of your mouth and you had to wait for the spring thaw to hear what everyone had said to you. <<<
Even worse in that type of weather is if you try to write your name in the snow, you may suffer freeze-back. :-)
Tom
>>> Fahrenheit, what a stupid system, we should have used anti-German sentiment to get rid of it in WWII <<<
How would anti-German sentiment have helped? Fahrenheit himself did most of his work in Amsterdam. By the time of WWII, only the English speaking world used the Fahrenheit scale. The Germans used Celsius. By the end of the 1970s, most of the rest of the English speaking world had converted to Celsius along with metric measurements. Only the United States, and countries strongly influenced by it retain the Fahrenheit scale. All we have to do to convert is stop being so ethnocentric.
Tom
All we have to do to convert is stop being so ethnocentric.
I think its more than that. Habits and customs die hard. If you tell me it is 30 degrees F - I immediately form a concept in my mind of how cold it is and how I need to dress, however if you tell me that it is 30 degrees Celcius I would need to look up a formula that I can never remember and then find a calculator to make the conversion in order to figure out which coat to wear. I am the same way with all metric measurements - I need to convert them to american in order for me to understand or work with them - 10 meters is a meaningless concept to me but say 10 yards and I immediately form a mental image of what it means. Conversion won't be easy.
10 meters is a meaningless concept to me
It will be for most of us once the sunspot cycle dies next year. Suggest 20 or 40 meters for more reliable communications < grin >
(bad ham radio joke...sorry, I couldn't resist. I had to react. It really induced a bad pun for which I had mho capacity. Someone will really have to coax me into stopping. It really ampered my judgement...especially at ohm. This shouldn't really be repeatered...maybe band outright).
I feel much better now.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty (W2IRT)
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
You brought back more from London than you thought :)
--Mark
>>> I think its more than that. Habits and customs die hard <<<
You are selling yourself short there. Do you think the English and Canadians are so much smarter than you that they can make the conversion, but you cannot? It would take less than a month of total immersion for most people to start thinking in Celsius rather than Fahrenheit. As a practical matter, for about a year thermometers would need both scales, much like automobile speedometers have both mph, and kmph on them, and weather reports would need to give the temperature in Celsius with a translation to Fahrenheit. Within six months, you would know what temperature range on the Celsius scale needed an overcoat, jacket or shirt sleeves without converting the numbers.
Tom
I can switch back and forth between the two scales fairly easily. If you were to tell me it's 20 degrees C., I would know right away it equates to 68 degrees F. We get immersed in metric during our visits to Lithuania anyway. Heck, my folks grew up using the metric system and had a devil of a time learning the English system when they came here.
>>>It would take less than a month of total immersion for most people to start thinking in Celsius rather than Fahrenheit.<<<
Why should we?
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> Why should we? <<<
To get in step with the rest of the world. It is a shame that so few Americans ever go to a foreign country, and some of our jingoistic legislators are proud of the fact that they have never been outside of the U.S. Unfortunately this country has taken the attitude with the rest of the world that if you want to deal with us, you must learn our language, and our weights and measures. Those wishing to sell to us have done so, but we lose many sales overseas by not conforming to their way of doing things. This hurts our balance of trade.
Tom
>>To get in step with the rest of the world.<<<
So, we can have metric in international dealings, but there's no use going through all the trouble of changing because the rest of the world did.
The mertric system is intrinsically no 'better' than the measures we have, which date back to the middle ages but suit our purposes for everyday dealings just fine. When you're going down the street for a pound of butter, you turn on the radio and hear it's 40 degrees, so you put on a jacket which is size 38, 40 or whatever. I have no idea why we must change those measurements, just to please Europeans. They have their measures and we have ours, just like they have their languages and we have English.
Teach metric in school, say the rest of he world does it that way, and use metric in international trade. Just don't make us suddenly change just to kowtow to the rest of the world.
>>>some of our jingoistic legislators are proud
of the fact that they have never been outside of the U.S. <<<
I've found that 'jingoistic' has often been a code word for the blame America first crowd. If being proud of the USA and what it stands for is jingoistic, I'm a proud jingo. And i'm talking as a person who can out-Moore Michael Moore in many ways.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Except the metric system "took" to soda bottles. For example, you can buy Coke in 1 or 2 liter bottles. It seems to have been a success there. So why not everywhere else?
Well, the TA couldn't afford it - for example, it would have to replace all of those emergency exit signs at the front and end of each platform telling you how many feet you are from the nearest emergency exit .... that's it - it's a MONEY thing :)
--Mark
How would anti-German sentiment have helped?
It's a German name. The sheep could have been convinced that it's patriotic to go to the Celsius temperature scale.
I like Fahrenheit. With Fahrenheit, zero is pretty damn cold, and 100 is pretty damn hot, 40 is cool while 70 is pleasantly warm.
With Centigrade you have to deal with minus temps a lot in the winter. Too inconvenient.
www.forgotten-ny.com
With Centigrade you have to deal with minus temps a lot in the winter. Too inconvenient.
How is that inconvenient. Negative numbers would then tell you that its below freezing, meaning that 0 becomes a useful number.
With Fartenheit, 0 might be "pretty damn cold" but so is 10 and -10. Why do you choose 40 and 70 of all numbers? That seems kind of arbitrary, just like the English measurement system and Fartenheit.
With Celsius 0 is freezing, 100 is the boiling point of water. 40 is "pretty damn hot" and 10 is cool (I don't know where you get that 40°F is cool, 40°F is cold).
Below zero degrees F.
No. The blizzard of '95 did not hit that early. The first of the "chain" of storms came on Dec. 20, 1995, according to the caption to one of the photos described in my 2001 CONRAIL Calendar that I bought from the Hoboken Festival 2 years ago.
Snow on the elevateds, should be fun riding on the Flushing Line!!!
Snow on the elevateds, should be fun riding on the Flushing Line!!!
Yes, show on the elevateds is always nice.
I have always envisioned myself running an arnine on the el through the snow with Christmas Lights twinkling from people's balconys.
Somehow, my vision always includes a northbound evening run, but always on the north track.
Oh well, so much for daydreams.
Elias
Yeah, rail is great in the snow. You can just look out the window, and whatever happens isn't your problem. Buses are OK too. Automobiles, not so good.
Speaking of riding a bus on snow day. Does any TA and other agencies such as Triboro Coach, Greenline, Jamaica, and LI buses equipped with snow proof tires or are they being protect with chains to prevent from skidding.
Majority of time when using mass transit, I feel safer using the subway than the bus during snow storm.
Buses do not run with chains normally, or at all, never saw one but it's not necessary since they have Good Year tires and they are forced to go in reduced speed anyway.
This brings back a story of infamy from my first tour of duty with the TA. I was a commodity manager in charge of bus parts and supplies. We had a testy relationship with the Dept. of Buses, because at the time Materiel was trying to cut down on hoarding and having so much stuff you lose half of it. The operating departments were worried they'd run out.
In the prior year, the TA had paid extra for "heavy duty" windshield washer fluid, then received stuff that was so watered down it didn't work. So the lab was working on a spec so we could buy more and get what we paid for. Every week I'd call the lab and ask if we could order. Every week they said no. This went througout the summer of 1986, and into the fall. The Mets won the World Series.
Then we got an early snow. And there was no windshield wiper fluid anywhere in the TA. The Depots ran out to the hardware stores to buy wiper fluid, but others got there first and bought it all. They called buses own material group, which called for my head. I spent the whole day being cursed.
Then I got on a bus to go home. Every couple of blocks, the bus driver had to get out and wipe a place to look through with a rag. He kept saying to a friend "if I every get ahold of the guy who screwed this up, I'll kill him!"
Got wiper fluid?
I remember...I think it was last year or something. Buses were running with chains on tires I'm pretty sure, 2 or 3 days, only artics I think.
OH Yes! I remember that greatest moment
Elevateds are good in snow.
Open cuts are better.
I was planning some railfanning on Wednesday. The Sea Beach just got itself added to the list.
Snow on the elevateds, should be fun riding on the Flushing Line!!!
I love the sound of the trains on the elevateds when it snows. When the train pulls into a station on a snow covered elevated, it has sort of a muffled sound. The snow really quiets the trains down. It's been so long since I've heard that.
Gawd.....I hope not....
speaking as someone who has to work on the parade.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, believe it or not, SNOW! Just watch weather report on the news and the weather channel. There is chances of snow on early or late Wed.
Well, they were right this time. I just looked out my window, and it's "white" in Suffolk County here....I don't know about the city, but if it is, I wish I was there to take some "white" subway photos.
Oh well, I'll have to settle for the LIRR. I have two appointments early today before I have the rest of the week off, but today would have been the only day I could have done some railfanning on the subway - oh well.
I just looked out my window, and it's "white" in Suffolk County here....I don't know about the city, but if it is, I wish I was there to take some "white" subway photos.
There was quite a bit of snow on the ground when I boarded my train in Suffolk this morning, only a dusting as we passed through Nassau, and practically nothing in the city.
Very light flurries here in Manhattan. Boo.
Send up some trucks ... we've got all you could possibly want! Back 'em in, load 'em up. Call CSX and we'll send boxcars! :)
Right here in Hastings-on-Hudson we probably only got an inch of snow and the sun has actually come out. WHAT A STORM!! They didn't even have to use the road salt I bet. By afternoon nost of the snow will probably melt away.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, up here unless the sun comes out, we're stuck with our 4 inches or so until Friday. Biggest dose fell between us and you in the Kingston area ... probably 7 inches. By upstate standards, a flurry to be sure, but it's out there and I'm in here and I'm going to bed. Moo. :)
I only got an inch were I am in Hastings-on-Hudson and most of it is gone already.
#3 West End Jeff
I figured there wouldn't be too much there. Too bad, but it's still snowing here, but getting lighter. It's just enough snow to make it interesting (if I was taking photos), but not enough to be a nuisance. Oh well, at least I don't feel quite as bad as not being able to come to the city to railfan the subway a bit today, as I originally planned. If there was snow there, that would have been the icing on the cake of me having to cancel my plans!
In the lot by queens plaza where the 63rd st. subway line was connected to queens blvd, there has been quite a bit of activity this last week. The sides of the lot are being walled in, and now there is a large crane in place with an area directly above the tunnel that looks as if it's about to be dug up:
Also, the lot across on the east side of Northern blvd which lays directly in the path of the LIRR connection has been cleared out, as seen below. (up until a month ago it was full of MTA structure dept. vans and trucks).
All of this is easily viewed from the N/W astoria elevated... Whether or not there will be GOs effecting the F during construction is anyone's guess. I assumed that since they put in the bellmouths that all they'd have to do is dig up under Northern blvd. to connect the 63rd lower to 'yard a' , but the location of that crane and roped off area suggests otherwise... unless they're about to build a building on top of the tunnel in that lot, and the MTA move out across the street is just coincidence... (afterall, as one can see in the background left of the top photo, Met Life is expanding it's new queens plaza office significantly).
Nice... I like the look of this!!
The connector project was completed to the building line[easternside]of Northern Blvd. Four trackways were done,2 SUBWAY for expantion purposes and 2 LIRR for E.S.A.
YEA i guess it has begun. Also in Grand Central preparation has begun as well. tracks 120-125 are being prepared for LIRR trains. which includes RIPPING up Metro North third rail, because their EMU's cannot operate on our third rail power
I thought LIRR was going to go in by madison av (in the old yard that's east of the platforms). Could they be rebuilting 120-125 for MN service? seems odd that they'd send LIRR all the way over to the west side of the facility... (120-125 is at the far west, right?)
"I thought LIRR was going to go in by madison av (in the old yard that's east of the platforms). Could they be rebuilting 120-125 for MN service? seems odd that they'd send LIRR all the way over to the west side of the facility... (120-125 is at the far west, right?)"
Madison Ave. is west of the current MNRR tracks.
My understanding is that the new LIRR tunnel will come down Park Ave underneath the MNRR tracks. So there's no useful information to determine it how it comes up to the MNRR level, or possibly becomes its own level.
I'm not sure if this has been asked before, so I'll just ask it anyway. What is the least/most used train station for elevated and subways?
The least used elevated station, I would probably say the Altantic Av. station on the (L).
Most used elevated station, my guess is Main St/Flushing on the (7).
The least used subway station is probably Bushwick Av. on the (L).
And the most used subway station is probably Union Sq./14 St. on the (4), (5), & (6), that station is insanely crowded.
Anyone is free to correct my answers.
The most used station is Grand Central followed by Times Square. Can't recall the least off the top of my head. It's either that station on the L, or out in the Rockaways.
In 2001 (annual ridership):
1: Times Square (including 42nd Street-Eighth Avenue): 51,817,684
424: Aqueduct Racetrack: 34,959
And since the Racetrack station is only part-time,
423: B. 105th Street: 70,323
David
By far the most used station is Far Rockaway.
The least is Sraside - Beach 105 St
What about the Bowery Station on the 'J' line. I know at one point it was the citys least used station. I use it quite frequently, and its always empty.
What about the Bowery Station on the 'J' line. I know at one point it was the citys least used station.
It's the least used station in Manhattan, but not in the whole city.
You're right, it is the least used station in Manhattan. The Bowery is underused b/c it is a crappy, nastym unattractive station although its a little better with the rehab on the Broad St bound platform.
"The Bowery is underused b/c it is a crappy, nastym unattractive station"
No, it is underused because there are very few itineraries for which it is useful. Pretty much only going between that neighborhood and lower Manhattan or Jamaica. If you are going between that neighborhood and anywhere else, you use a different station.
Bowery,
If the 2nd Ave line every gets gets built or a connector between the Nassau St. line with the 6th Ave line gets built, then the station will somewhere for its patrons to go to!
Maybe a grouping of "Soup Kitchen Style" cafeterias would draw tourist. Surrounded by "Previously owned" clothing stores. Since NAPTA and US companies moving off shore, manufacters "seconds" are becoming less available to lower income consumers.
avid
Times Sq is ahead of Grand Central now. Keep in mind that the 8th av stop at Port Authority Bus complex is not a part of 'times square station.'
oops, I meant it is NOW a station connected to Times sq.
The least used elevated station, I would probably say the Altantic Av. station on the (L).
That's the least used mainline station in all of Brooklyn, surprising considering that there is a LIRR connection there. It's not the least in the whole system though. I believe the least used station in the entire system is one of the Rockaway stations - Beach 105th Street-Seaside I believe.
And the most used subway station is probably Union Sq./14 St. on the (4), (5), & (6), that station is insanely crowded.
As busy as Union Square is, it's not the busiest in the system. You have the right line though (Lexington), it's Grand Central I believe.
Since you kind of differentiated between elevated/outdoor stations and underground subway stations, I think this is this - someone may have to correct me:
Underground:
-Least Used - 21 Street-Van Alst (G)
-Most Used - Grand Central (4/5/6) - (although someone mentioned that may have changed to Times Square - I know it used to br GC.
Elevated/Outdoor:
-Least Used - Beach 105th Street/Seaside (S)
-Most Used - Don't know - it can't be main Street as you mentioned because that station is underground.
This is for the whole system, maybe someone else can break it up by bourogh, I only know some of them. Anyone?
Oops! How stupid of me, I meant the Queens Plaza station with the (N) line.
Main Street-Flushing is underground.
2000 fare registrations:
Busiest underground: Times Square (48,878,726)
Least busy underground: E. 143rd Street-St. Mary's Street (230,725)
Busiest part-elevated complex: 74th Street-Roosevelt Avenue (13,672,287)
Busiest all-elevated station: Junction Boulevard (6,114,860)
Least busy elevated: B. 105th Street (67,523)
As for the other suggestions:
Atlantic Avenue (236,626) -- least busy in Brooklyn
Main Street (16,582,717) -- busiest outside Manhattan, but it's underground.
Bushwick-Aberdeen (259,722)
Bowery (250,125) -- least busy in Manhattan
21st Street-Van Alst (255,531) -- least busy in Queens aside from the Rockaways
Grand Central (39,820,636)
Union Square (23,851,302)
Queensboro Plaza (2,469,153)
Note that these are fare registrations, so they don't include transfers. Times Square is even busier than the numbers suggest!
Where does the Fulton St.-B'way Nassau st station fall (realistically, since most transfer to get to another train, I'd bet it's pretty low...)
Then you'd be wrong.
17,573,601, ranked 9 out of 424.
Curiously, it's neighbor, Chambers/Park Place, is ranked 10.
(This is in 2000. I'm sure 2001 has much lower numbers at both.)
Well I guess that settles it. I guess Times Square knocked out Grand Central when they added 42/8th to the complex. I forgot about that.
BTW, while we are at it, what is the busiest station in Brooklyn and in the Bronx? I think in the other boroughs that question was answered inadvertantly, but I think those are the only ones we need to complete the puzzle of the busiest and least busy stations in the four boroughs in the system.
Brooklyn busiest: Court Street-Borough Hall (9,923,338)
Bronx busiest: 161st Street-Yankee Stadium (6,403,511)
Interesting, I was surprised that 161st Street is the most used station in the Bronx. I guess the numbers are a bit skewed because of Yankee Stadium being right there. Although, on the other hand, that would also skew 111th-Willet's Point, which also has to be way up there because of Shea, but not enough to knock out Queen's "regular" use stations.
111th and Shea are two different stations.
I use Shea quite a bit for its park-n-ride. But I dn't usually have that much company.
:-) Andrew
My Mistake. I don't know why I put 111th there. I obviously meant Shea-Willet's Point. Duh on me. (My typing didn't quite catch up with my brain cells on that one).
Yankee Stadium also has a busy neighborhood around it. It's a shopping area and there are the court houses there as well. 111 St has a residential area around it. And Willet's Point is deserted when the Mets are not playing.
Not true.
What about the US Open? Its used a lot then as well, even when the Mets are away. Also, people going to the Flushing Meadows Park Science Museum and Zoo also use it.
The US open is about 2 weeks in September. People go to the Science Museaum and the zoo and the park in general during the summer when the weather is good. Mets are home half of the time between April and September. Not to mention not at all the rest of the year.
Willet's Point has its days I'll admit. But not a constant crowd every day. Except for the employees from the Depot and Yard.
Not true.
What about the US Open? Its used a lot then as well, even when the Mets are away. Also, people going to the Flushing Meadows Park Science Museum and Zoo also use it.
What is the definition of fare registrations? Does it include all turnstile entries? I presume that when you say that it does not include transfers, you mean internal transfers and not MetroCard transfers. The latter should be counted along with passes and fares.
From page 2 of the 2001 report:
"Subway ridership for each station includes all passengers (other than NYCT employees) who enter the subway system through that station, including passengers transferring from buses. Not included are passengers exiting the subway system and passengers transferring from other subway lines (except for out-of-system transfers such as between the Lexington Avenue/63rd Street staiton and the Lexington Avenue/59th Street station)."
David
Least busy elevated: B. 105th Street (67,523)
This surprises me - I thought there were some Rockaway Line stations that would be less busy than B 105th, with that apartment complex right across from the station.
--Mark
What About Broad Channel (A),,[(S)] In Queens One of The Least Used?
Broad Channel gets more people during the day than B105 gets all day. But Broad Channel gets no one at night. I've been there about 4 years ago. 3 times a week I used to drop empty bags to show Jay St there was nothing there.
I think the winner w/o question is the Atlantic Avenue Station on the 14th St.-Canarsie Line.
I bet Stef would LOVE to have that booth...lots of time to read the 'Tripper' or catch some ZZZZZs.
Least elevated I'll say one of the Rockaway stations on the A but I agree with you Atlantic Av on the L looks very underused.
Most elevated I'll say 74 St on the 7 since it has the Roosevelt Av transfer
Least used subway I'll say 75 Av on the F. Never see more than 3 people every time I take a ride to/from Jamaica on the F.
Most used subway I'll say Times Square although GCT and Union Sq are very close.
BTW, Main St is NOT a elevated station although it isn't deep.
I don' t have the numbers but a candidate for least used station should be Bay Parkway on the Culver. I see little traffic at that station and it has a cemetery on both sides of it.
Yeah, the location of Bay Parkway with a cemetary on both south sides of the street makes for little service....except maybe around Halloween...:)
Speaking of cemetaries, I believe Cypress Hills is pretty low on the list also. I think it's one of the least used stations on the J line anyway.
At least on one side of Cypress Hills, there is a residental area.
Yes, true.
Then there's Wilson Avenue on the L line that has a cemetary on one side, and the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch on the other - seemingly in the middle of no where.
It's another station like Cypress Hills which has only regular passengers on one side (and ghost passengers on the other).
Actually at Wilson Ave the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch is over the passageway from the token booth to the platform. A neighborhood is right outside the mezzazine.
Yeah, I know. But it does seem like the station is in the middle of no where!
Actually speaking of stations that seem like they are in the middle of no where, I have used Atlantic Avenue station on the L many times (the least used station in Brooklyn). When I use it, it is usually because I am either coming from or going to the LIRR East New York Station, which I use quite often. The funny thing is that there doesn't seem to be anything around that whole area. I have waited on the ENY platform and looked around and have not seen one apartment house anywhere in the distance. From the elevated Atlantic Ave station it is the same thing. From the Manhattan Bound platform there is one abandoned building and nothing else. Maybe if I strain my eyes there are a few tenements far off in the distance. I have used the ENY LIRR-L Train Atlantic connection after dark a few times also and it is very dark there - hardly anything in sight!
Wilson Ave is at the fringe of a residental area. In the East New York/Atlantic Ave area there are not that many apartment buildings. It is mostly an area with 1 and 2 family houses and a few factories.
The area does seem very industrial right now, doesn't it ....
Was it always that way? Perhaps 40 years ago it was much different ...
--Mark
Was it always that way? Perhaps 40 years ago it was much different ...
It was different. When I look at older pictures of the LIRR-ENY L Atlantica Avenue site, it is almost unrecognizable.
Yeah, the location of Bay Parkway with a cemetary on both south sides of the street makes for little service....except maybe around Halloween...:)
Doug: As usual your dead right...
Epithat on a tombstone.
"Here lies the bones of Freddie Jones. Bill Moffat said his car couldn't skid, but this monument shows it could and it did."
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, your humor is DEAD ON! LOL!
Larry, your humor is DEAD ON! LOL!
How about 138 St-Grand Concourse on the 4 & 5, I hardly ever see people there, I'm sure it has pretty low usage there. Also someone mentioned Cypress Hills, that's low too [partly b/c of the cemetery] and as "Barry" mentioned, no one or hardly anyone mentioned the Dyre Av line, how about Baychester Av or Morris Park, they look like low usage stations as well.
How did they get the PATH train out of the WTC station?
By crane. Basically the entire station is now outdoors and in the open pit there, so it was just removed with the rest of the debris by crane.
There are some photos on Brennen's abandoned station site.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/worldtrade.html
Also the November issue of Railfan & Railroad has a nice photo of two cars on their way out of the hole.
Thanks, I have that issue (but haven't had the chance to look through it yet). I'm about 3 issues behind in reading. I'll look for the photos, when I get a chance to finally read them.
How did they get the PATH train out of the WTC station?
By a crane lifting the cars onto a flatbed truck.
Usually my M. O. is to take the N4 bus to Jamaica and take the E from there. That part usually isn't too bad, but reversing the procedure is often at least somewhat annoying, because I wind up waiting for the bus, sometimes quite a while. (It's annoying enough that the railroad sometimes is a better choice, even though it costs a lot more.) More annoying is when I have to cool my heels at Sutphin Blvd. waiting for a slot to open in the terminal at Jamaica Center-- more than once I think this has caused me to miss a bus.
Yesterday, though, I figured things would be a bit better because, well, it was Sunday. How much "congestion" could Jamaica Center have on a Sunday afternoon? Nevertheless, when we got to Sutphin, we stopped with the doors open and the conductor announced, as usual, "congestion in the station ahead." We waited several minutes like that until, finally, a train emerged directly ahead of us. "That train looks a bit unusual," I said silently. When it pulled alongside us at Sutphin, I saw why. It was a garbage train! Of all the reasons to get stuck waiting around!
Oh, well. The 1:00 PM N4 was twenty minutes late anyway, so the five-minute delay (we pulled into Jamaica Center around 1:05) didn't do any harm (unless the previous bus was also very late and I just missed that). Sigh.
... and asked him when the section of El carrying the northbound Canarsie Line between Sutter and Atlantic would close. I also mentioned the fantrip coming up in a few weeks. He told me that he didn't think it would be closing by mid-December (the "20 yards left" that was discussed earlier on this board is more than a weekend job).
So you may have more time to get your "before" photos. I got my video today. Maybe some more tomorrow, too, if all works out.
--Mark
If you're there Wednesday, look for me.
Me too!
---Brian
railfanwindow.com
Nope, I guess I'll miss you guyz. Wednesday I'll be on my way to Boston ... weather permitting.
Today I concentrated some more on the Broadway/Brooklyn El between Broadway Junction and Hewes Street.
--Mark
Since where discussing the cars that were everybody's favorite whipping boy until the R-68's showed up I thought to add this little piece to the puzzle.
A three car train of R-16's 6497-6423-6443 went into service on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle on June 6 to test performance data for a planned trila of General Electric automation there. The R-16's were there for a week or so I believe. I wonder what ever became of the test results?
Larry,RedbirdR33
AS most of you know President John F Kennedy was assasinated iin Dallas, Texas on a Friday, November 22,1963. Monday, November 25, 1963 was declared an Official Day of Mourning and at 12 noon the movement of all NYCTA trains was halted for one minute.
Larry, RedbirdR33
or are they the same amount?
Hi! Haven't posted for awhile. Glad to see all is well here.
I have a question. Around 2:30/3:00PM, 5 trains have to start going to Flatbush again so they can come back for the evening rush. Now, let's say the last South Ferry inner loop 5 is at 2:45. That means it will arrive at Bowling Green Northbound about 2:50. The next downtown is headed for Brooklyn. What happens to Northbound 5 trains after that. It will be a long time before that 5 goes to Flatbus and comes back. I assume at that point they start sending 5 trains from New Lots yard. I know in the morning some 5 trains go to Atlantic and I remember some even went to New Lots. Am I correct? And, do those PM 5 trains from New Lots run light until Bowling Green?
I've had questions about situations like these. I've been responded to by people saying that there are put-ins by the closest yard, but I still don't understand how the Rs start running into Manhattan from Brooklyn at 5:30 when it is about this time when the first R leaves Forest Hills. I plan on compiling a list of situations like these.
"I've been responded to by people saying that there are put-ins by the closest yard, but I still don't understand how the Rs start running into Manhattan from Brooklyn at 5:30 when it is about this time when the first R leaves Forest Hills."
How about trains stored on the 4th Ave. express tracks? (Just a guess.)
Not on weekdays.
City Hall lower level is my guess.
City Hall has one R and 4 Ns. The R is a put-in from 57 St southbound at 0546. The first three Queens-bound Rs from 95 St are the midnight shuttles to Pacific (as are the fifth and seventh). the ninth is the put-in from 57 returning north; the evn numbers are put-ins at 95 St.
Question - is the midnight R shuttle an 8 car train?
"the evn numbers are put-ins at 95 St."
So the question becomes, where are these put-ins stored?
To the best of my knowledge, one in the 86 St spur track and four along the southbound 4th Ave express track. My Monday morning N (0659 Ditmars) is the first scheduled SB express; the last scheduled R put-in at 95 leaves at 0748. This leaves about 20 minutes for shit to happen before that R is in the way of my N.
I'm referring to the afternoon rush (I think). You're not, unless you mean 0546 in some other time zone.
Afternoons are 5 put-ins from Whitehall stored at City HAll during the day, and one at Continental.
While I know this started as a question about afternoon 5 service, I thought this segment went to AMs on the R.
Indeed it did. I stand corrected.
"The next downtown is headed for Brooklyn. What happens to Northbound 5 trains after that."
Take a look at the schedules available at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/schemain.htm
They will answer many of your questions. In particular, the last 5 terminates at BG at 2:59 and starts northward at 3:12. Meanwhile, another 5 started at Franklin at 3:10 (presumably coming from the yard) and arrives at BG at 3:22.
During the time between the last Bow Green train and the first Flatbush Train there are trains that come from New Lots YD and also some trains run Light from E 180 to Bowling Green and start picking up N/B to cover the gap.
that is correct
Another case {although it is not a case anymore} is how did they take care of Pelham bound 6 trains from 125th to Pelham when the overnight shuttles to 125 ended and the first train went to Brooklyn Bridge, leaving a gap before it comes back. I know you can store some trains at Brooklyn Bridge, but I don't think more than 2.
I don't know, but the express tracks were also available. My guess is that a bunch of extra trains were stored near 125th on the express; once through service began southbound, the extras were used for northbound shuttle service to fill in the gap. Anyone know for sure?
What they use to do was send a train light from Westchester YD to 125 St to pick up N/B. I believe it stayed on M TK and wrong railed from 3 Ave-138 St to 125 St Upper.
Guess I did my good deed for the day. At approx. 0430 AM today (Tues) I saw someone have some kind of seizure and fall on to the N/B F train tracks at 34th Street. I notified the T/O of the D train that I had just arrived on and waited for the signals to turn red before I left. What a way to start a day...Scary.
Peace,
ANDEE
What a way to start a day...Scary.
It is a very scary sight. I will never forget when I was a teenager, about 15 years ago, and was waiting for a J train on the Manhhattan bound platform at Myrtle-Broadway. All of a sudden an older to middle-aged woman fell onto the center track there. I was horrified. You could hear the screeching flanges of an M train shuttle coming to the station. I was at the extreme end of the platform (waiting for the railfan window) and she was about in the center of the station. Luckily many people thought very fast and some even jumped onto the tracks also to help her.
It all happened so fast. She was pretty scared, but she was fine. Amazingly the last guy on the tracks just made it off the tracks as the M was pulling into the station. It was truly scary, because the T/O view of the station i blocked until the last minute, because of the curve before the station, so he had no idea what was happening until the last minute.
Thanks for appreciating what I went through.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope everything turned out OK.
Nice to hear you did some quick thinking there Andee. Not many folks early in the a.m. would have been able to act so quickly (at least not w/o some java in the system).
>>>at least not w/o some java in the system). <<
Like I told you on the phone, I don't drink that shit. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hopefully the person that fell onto the tracks will be O.K.
#3 West End Jeff
Bless ya! Nice to know there's still people who care and do the right thing!
Kevin,
I ALWAYS *try* to do the rught thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS, I mean right
Yeah, occasionally you do the WRITE thing....:)
hAhAhA
Peace,
ANDEE
That's why you're appreciated ... even if ya CAN'T spull. :)
last week or so here in los angeles a blue line light rail train
ran over a woman who was reported killed ...&
then almost the next day a car was hit
at the wardlow station .
Andee: Good work and fast thinking on your part. I hope your not feeling too upset. It can be a frightening thing to witness.
Best Wishes,
Larry, RedbirdR33
Sunday, a woman was seen running along the platform. Then as a D train approached she went airborne, tucked into a perfect cannonball and jumped in front of the D train - and missed. Just another reminder that the holiday season is just around the corner
>>> Then as a D train approached she went airborne, tucked into a perfect cannonball and jumped in front of the D train - and missed <<<
How does one miss in a situation like that? Did she land beyond the car marker that the train was stopping at? If so, it must have been embarrassing; like being late for your own funeral.
Tom
If one is to believe the 'official report', she landed in the trough too soon and the first car passed over her. The T/O and a police officer pulled her out between the first and second cars.
Lmao!!!! Do people these days need to be tought how to commit suicide correctly???
That's one possibility. Then again, we must consider another one. Perhaps this woman planned this stunt and is working in concert with a lawyer. Her goal is to sue the TA for her dry cleaning bill.
Wait a minute - Am I starting to think like hay paulie? I need to take a nap.
Constanting reciting lines from Abbott & Costello? Collecting parts to assemble an R-68 cab in the house? Perhaps you're trying to find the inner-meaning of the Three Stooges?
If you have any of these symptoms I'd say 'Yup' you're coming down with heypaul's desease. Otherwise just get a good night's rest...;)
Constanting reciting lines from Abbott & Costello? Collecting parts to assemble an R-68 cab in the house? Perhaps you're trying to find the inner-meaning of the Three Stooges?
If you have any of these symptoms I'd say 'Yup' you're coming down with heypaul's desease. Otherwise just get a good night's rest...;)
I was in East New York Yard yesterday 11/25 for my J job. I had time to look around and take some photos. I got a list of R143's that were in the yard that day. It turns out that all car from
8249-8268 were inside that yard in some from of setup or testing.
There was also the set that being used for CBTC testing there to. Also on my way home past Coney Island Yard on the Belt, I saw a full train of R143's sitting inside that yard. I am guessing these are the ones for the Seaman testing.
Robert
One more thing for you record. With 8268 now being the high number there are only 44 cars or 11 set left to be delerved to the TA. So some time late January or early February all cars sould be in.
Robert
thanks for the update robert. i always take a peek at ci yard when driving on the belt. many museum pieces there. but you have to be careful at 50mph.
I know on the weekends The R-143's run OPTO's on the M Line.
are you the ch 11 and cbs fm weatherman.
Is it true that this station is used more often than East 105 St on the Canarsie-14th Street line? I find that hard to believe. In all the years I rode the J/Z to Broad, I never saw anyone get on or off there.
Here are stations I think are less busy than East 105 Street:
Bowery - BMT Nassau Line
75th Avenue - IND Queens Boulevard Line
Vernon-Jackson Ave - IRT Flushing Line
Any way I can research this?
Is it true that this station is used more often than East 105 St on the Canarsie-14th Street line? I find that hard to believe. In all the years I rode the J/Z to Broad, I never saw anyone get on or off there.
Here are stations I think are less busy than East 105 Street:
Bowery - BMT Nassau Line
75th Avenue - IND Queens Boulevard Line
Vernon-Jackson Ave - IRT Flushing Line
Ridership at Bowery may have picked up modestly in the past couple of years as the neighborhood becomes more desirable. It's still very low compared to most Manhattan stations, however, and that's probably not going to change.
Vernon-Jackson ridership likely has increased too, as the Queens West development opens in stages. It also gets some transfers from the LIRR.
Doesn't the LIRR transfer occur at Hunter's Point Avenue? There is an LIRR station by the same name just outside the IRT station.
No. The LIRR station next to Vernon-Jackson, well at least near Vernon-Jackson, is Long Island City. The one noone uses. (The station next to Hunterspoint Avenue is Hunterspoint Avenue.)
That said, Vernon-Jackson DOES have at least moderate usage. The neighborhood surrounding it is booming, and why shouldn't it? It's one stop from Manhattan!
:-) Andrew
Vernon-Jackson is used with the LIRR-Long Island City station that a few LIRR trains go to. You are right though, most LIRR trains do go to Hunter's Point Ave, not Long Island City.
Some LIRR electric trains go to Hunter's Point. But Long Island City is where all the diesals from Long Island end up.
Some LIRR electric trains go to Hunter's Point. But Long Island City is where all the diesals from Long Island end up.
If I'm not mistaken, only one electric train goes to Hunterspoint Ave, the rest are all diesel. True, most of the diesels do end up at LIC, but more stop at Hunters Point Ave than stop at the station at LIC in the yard. They usually deadhead from HP station to LIC. Most of the LIC station trains are the diesels that go via the Western Montauk Branch, and all of the diesels that go via the Mainline go to HP station.
If you look at link below, you will see that one electric train goes to LIC.
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/commuter/lirr/lirr-lic01.jpg
Yes, you are correct. I see this trainset everyday on my way home from work.
Paul
But there's no third rail. What do they do? Tug it in by horse?
:-) Andrew
There is third rail on the four extreme left tracks at LIC yard.
The 3rd rail runs from Hunterspoint Ave to as per GP38 Chris said.
Paul
Bowery usage is up even more than that. The unfettered growth of Chinatown is the primary reason, IMHO. Many of the new faces are asian.
True, and Chinatown continues to grow. It is starting to encroach into Little Italy, and even beyond. What is considered "Chinatown" is much bigger than it used to be. Well if it brings more people and more life into the Bowery area, I guess that's good.
"In all the years I rode the J/Z to Broad, I never saw anyone get on or off there."
I guess you haven't seen me. Also, any time I have ever waited for a train there, I have not been alone.
The general neighborhood is not as desolate as it used to be; businesses there are thriving and new residential building are being built, and old ones are being renovated.
The station admittedly has a narrow purpose. If you have business in the area or live there, but are going to midtown, you will walk to another station (Canal, Grand especially when more usable, 2nd Ave, Essex/Delancey).
If you are going to downtown or to Brooklyn, you are likely to use that station. The only one seat rides to downtown from that area are the J/M, the 6 (ends at BB), the N/R (considerably further west), and several fairly slow buses.
But since 80% of people who work in Manhattan work in midtown, and the Bowery area is better than it was but still not exactly dense, that doesn't add up to that many people.
I guess not. Maybe you got off while I was at the railfan window. :)
I never said the station was practically abandoned. Even City Hall had about 600 fares a day before it was closed in '45. And Dean Street also had a few "paying" customers before it was eliminated. I'm just saying that even with people using the station, Bowery is still less used than E 105 Street.
You are quite right, as David Greenberger showed a few minutes ago - East 105th has about three times as many users as Bowery. But the least-used station on the system (except for Aqueduct Race Track) is Beach 105th, not East 105th.
I think that may be the confusion here.
BEACH 105th Street-Seaside in Rockaway is the least used station, not EAST 105th Street on the L line.
Which is exactly what I said.
Sorry. I see 105th I think East, not Beach
Lets not get into Rockaway Park vs Rockaway Parkway!
Hey, laugh if you want, but I've seen (L) trains signed up with "Rockaway Park, Queens" as the south terminal. Might work in the future...if the R143 is amphibious!
:-) Andrew
I've seen subway cars on the L with Rockaway Park-Queens and Rockaway Parkway-B'k'lyn on he same consist. However that was subway cars with roll signs.
Right. My sighting was on an R42.
:-) Andrew
So it just means someone tried moving the roll sign and left it on the wrong letter.
Heh, or Rockaway Blvd or Rockaway Avenue or Rockaway Freeway or Rockaway Bedding ...
--Mark
Heh, or Rockaway Blvd or Rockaway Avenue or Rockaway Freeway or Rockaway Bedding ...
LOL......or if you like the Ramones....Rockaway High School.....
Dean Street also had a few "paying" customers before it was eliminated
If I recall correctly, Dean Street was averaging about 50 to 100 paid fares per day in its last years. Turnstile jumpers reportedly outnumbered "honest" passengers by a not-insignificant margin.
I think Bowery is also supposed to be a transfer point to the 2nd Ave Subway. If that happens, things will pick up. The transfer point is up a stairway to what I assume once was the part time booth.
"I think Bowery is also supposed to be a transfer point to the 2nd Ave Subway."
Don't count on it. Maybe you're thinking of 2nd Ave.
If the SAS merges into the Nassau St line, it will probably bypass Bowery. If it has a stop at Grand it will have cross-platform transfers there to the B and D, but not necessarily a connection to Bowery station.
75th Avenue - IND Queens Boulevard Line
Vernon-Jackson Ave - IRT Flushing Line
Neither of those are going to be the least used stations. Many of the Rockaway stations, as well as 21st Street-Van Alst-G (I believe the least used underground station in Queens, IINM) have lower patronage than either Vernon or 75th Avenue.
Vernon is very well used anymore, and with more big condo buildings going in down there, it will only become more and more used in the years ahead.
1999 fare registrations:
Bowery (250,125), rank 416 (out of 424)
E105 (774,380), rank 355
75th Avenue (1,138,736), rank 298
Vernon-Jackson (1,749,341), rank 211
Nobody said that E105 was less busy than the Bowery. Maybe you're thinking of Beach 105th, in the Rockaways, which had 67,523 fare registrations and ranked 423. The only station below it was the part-time Aqueduct Racetrack, with 40,180 registrations.
The only station below it was the part-time Aqueduct Racetrack, with 40,180 registrations.
...and which is northbound only.
:-) Andrew
And the station is only used when the racetrack is open.
I doubt that has much of an impact. How many people would board southbound trains there if they could? (Fare registration count entries, not exits.)
I didn't want to say anything before because I didn't have figures to back up what I what I was saying, but I thought that both 75th and Vernon had to be more in the middle of the list than at the lesser-used end. I found it hard to believe that any station on either the 7 or the QB line would be way at the bottom of the list, especially with a few of the Bronx stations, Rockaway stations, and even G line stations that I assumed would probably be closer to the bottom, lesser used than V-J or 75th.
BTW, David, where did you get that list with figures? Is it online somewhere?
75th Avenue can be fairly busy. Not busy by Queens Blvd. standards, but nowhere near the bottom of the list.
:-) Andrew
(Yes. It's a near-repost from another thread, but come to think of it, it makes more sense here.)
So Bowery is near the bottom with regard to ridership figures. But bear in mind two things: First of all those numbers don't take transfers into account, and at a station served by multiple lines there's no way of knowing which line those passengers are using. Second, Bowery and Broad are the only two stations on the Nassau St line in Manhattan without any transfers. See where I'm going here? Some of those other Nassau St. stations might also have similarly small ridership too on the brown line platforms.
(Noone ever calls the subway routes by their colors.)
:-) Andrew
21st-Van Alst (G)
Flushing Avenue (G)
Beach 105th-Seaside (H)
Bushwick-Aberdeen (L)
Atlantic Avenue (L)
Brook Avenue (6)
111th Street (7)
145th Street (3)
All are low-volume stations. And I am sure there are others.
Vernon-Jackson has a considerable clientele, last time I was there, it didn't seem empty.
wayne
Isn't it ironic that the Dyre Avenue Line Stations which do not have station agents 24 hours a day are not even on anyone's list
Thank You
The busiest station on the Dyre branch is Gun Hill Road (1,449,126), rank 246.
Now I don't have exact ridership figures but I believe E 105 St has more usage than Bowery but its starting to come up[SLOWLY!] but if you want a real low usage station, Beach 105 St on the Rockaway shuttle is the LOWEST in the entire system.
I came accross this item in the December 1971 issue of The Bulletin.
As of November 15, 1971 eight R 1-9's have been repainted in the old manner; 100,103,381,484,800,1000,1208 and 1440. 1802 is in the shops for a simliar repainting. Starting on November 22 the eight cars were making one trip during both the morning and evening rush on the QB.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'll bet most of those cars were in that prewar train in Nighthawks. I was able to identify 800, 1208, and 1802 on my DVD.
well i had the pleasure of riding them everyday on the qb. it was sure a strange sight to see that first day in 1973. as you know several are no longer on the property. a few survive in transit museums.
A couple survive with the exception of 1208.
100,484,1575 are at the NY Transit Museum
103,381,923,925,1000,1300,1802 at Coney Island
800 and 1440 to Seashore
825 to Kingston
1689 to BERA
1801 to Albany
BERA and Seashore's R-1/9s function.
-Stef
A couple survive with the exception of 1208.
100,484,1575 are at the NY Transit Museum
103,381,923,925,1000,1300,1802 at Coney Island
800 and 1440 to Seashore
825 to Kingston
1689 to BERA
1801 to Albany
BERA and Seashore's R-1/9s function.
-Stef
Stef: One of those at Coney Island is still painted that MTA Silver and Blue. Would you know which one that is.
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
?
Don't recall seeing any R-1/9 survivors in MTA Blue and Silver. There is Car 491, which was painted in a shade of silver/gray with blue doors, if that counts for anything.
That car has been repainted since.
-Stef
Glad to hear it got repainted ... the Holy Ronan Empire war between the states paintjob on a "City of New York" railcar is SUCH sacrilege, I'd be obliged to come down to the city and empty a few cans of orange spray paint on it. :)
Yep! Thank Mike H and his people down at CI. When I visited the Fire School in 2001, 491 was in the paint booth. I believe there's a picture of 491 here on the site taken by SalaamAllah (IIRC).
-Stef
Bless Mike! That gray and blue was unnatural ... sure hope they managed to redo the gold "City of New York" on her sides, that was always one of the nicest things on the Arnines when you could spot it under the permacrud. :)
Selkirk:
This was 491 before repainting -
491 after repainting -
-Stef
Ewwwww ... Thanks a LOT buddy ... you *ruined* my midnight snack with that shot, now we've got hot lunch. :(
Remind me to put some chewing gum in your turnstyles and give you a slap. :)
Hey - the R-32 prototype :)
And all this time, I thought it was just a legend ...
But there's the PROFF ... the Blue Doors!!
--Mark
That's the one thing still missing from 1689 - the "City of New York" lettering on its sides.
wow im amazed at what you guys would pay to ride what i rode for 50 cents on a daily basis. you should get in touch with museum and see if they could set up a 4 car train for your trip. by the way i was a regular rider on the nostalgia train in the 70s. they used to charge three dollars back then.
>>>"was a regular rider on the nostalgia train in the 70s. they used to charge three dollars back then."<<<
and it was fifty cents to visit the Museum at Court Street, then.
Now it's $3.00 to visit Court Street, pre renovation or $30.00 to
ride the Nostalgia Train. That's only a 1K % increase in Thirty
Years for the Train or 600% for admission.
;-) Sparky
That's one thing I kick myself for - not riding on any of the Nostalgia Trains. I was still living back east then, too. Even saw the ads for them. Must have been that image of the BMT standards that turned me off to the idea.
I don't think the 9's had that, and possibly not the 7's either. That gold leaf was mighty pricey actually and yes, it was GOLD originally. But I don't believe the later cars had that on them, only the earlier originals.
I saw it on a few cars in the late 60s, once on a n/b E train as it went by the s/b platform at 42nd St.
It was REAL pretty and made "the look."
Of course, for many years that lettering was covered by dirt and grime. It reappeared when carwashers were installed and the R-1/9s got scrubbed down. I'll bet people were surprised to see it, especially if they were too young to remember when those cars were new. It's kind of what happened in Pittsburgh when they started cleaning the soot off of older buildings that had been blackened by years of air pollution. Why, they had different colors, for Pete's sake!
couple survive with the exception of 1208.
100,484,1575 are at the NY Transit Museum
103,381,923,925,1000,1300,1802 at Coney Island
800 and 1440 to Seashore
825 to Kingston
1689 to BERA
1801 to Albany
BERA and Seashore's R-1/9s function.
-Stef
Stef: Seashore also has R-1 175 which is used for storage. I believe that this car was one of several sent to Txas or some other exotic port for use as what?? Condos. It was returned unwanted and went to Seashore in 1995.
Larry, RedbirdR33
>>Seashore also has R-1 175 which is used for storage. I believe that this car was one of several sent to Txas or some other exotic port for use as what?? Condos. It was returned unwanted and went to Seashore in 1995.<<
It was supposedly used as a pizzeria restaurant in Houston,Texas. #175 was be renumbered as #475, used as an alcohol car.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thank you Bill.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I thought 175 was used as a Restaurant? I wonder if it would be feasible to make it run again?
I forgot about 175 and 491. 491 was the old school car at Jamaica Yard.
-Stef
175 has no trucks and is used as a storage shed, AFAIK.
< PLUG> Using the online roster of preserved north
american railway cars at http://www.bera.org/pnaerc.html,< /PLUG>
selecting only cars once owned by "Independent Subway System"
and then sorting by location, I came up with some more info:
491 aka 401, which had been a school car at Jamaica yard,
has been at Coney Island for a while and is being restored,
to some extent.
1144 is in Buckinghamshire England, where it is used for utility
purposes at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre. It had formerly
been used as some sort of restaurant.
Frank just emailed me the latest database update with lots of
corrections and improvements. I see that 175, the glaaaas cahhh
up at Seashore, is not on his list but I'm _sure_ that will
get picked up soon...perhaps it's already on the new update.
175 is a body and it has been completely stripped above and below
the floor. There is no intention of ever using it for anything
other than a parts donor for other R1-9 cars (e.g. one of its
doors went to Coney Island to be used on 491).
The sad thing is there are enough R1-9 cars on the transit property
to make up at least an 8-car fantrip. Unfortunately most of them
are dead. Would that be an interesting fantrip? How much would
you pay for a ticket?
This last question is the hard part ....... "How much would you pay for a ticket?" Yet a person can dream.....! and hope.....!
$50 is what I'd be willing to pay ... $100 if I can take it to 179th Street or better yet, 205th. :)
YES ... Why not have an auction for HANDLE TIME under proper
supervision on a MOD~Trip with the arnines, where the returns
would benefit Charity, not the TA coffers.
:-) Sparky
For $100 I'd volunteer to play conductor in addition to some handle time!:)
Sounds good to me ... hell, I'd even be willing to make all required stops and wait for the indication fairy, and bang doors until I got it. All I'd ask is a "pilot" who actually ran the things once since they don't run like 32's or 68's. Like Father Cosgrove in the cab, the TSS assigned could catch some Z's. :)
I must say so myself, on occasion I do have "Sparkling Thoughts".
:-) Sparky
Yeah, just don't trip the substation or we're all up Schlitz Creek. :)
In eighteen years, I only did it once with evil intent in mind.
;-) Sparky
Heh ... you DOG you! I'm proudya, son ... next time we drag 1689 out, we gotta get YOU some handle time. Cures what ails ya ... at least long enough to reup the membership so's you can do it again. :)
In eighteen years, I only did it once with cogitation.
;-) Sparky
I guess that's the TWU difference. I did it with vegetation. You haven't lived until you had only one good pair of motors and then you ended up GAPPING it and needed a push. I'll never forget that one morning that I got a really screwed up train with only one car that pulled 600 volts and ended up stalling out on the ladder. I took great pride in being the one being blamed for screwing up the railroad when I'd been told, "that one's yours" ... like *I* broke it. :)
Similar situation of being the one that screwed up the *****
railroad. TATS 629, the low voltage operates with a 12 volt
battery, that is recharged by the compresor. Well, several
years ago doing a yard move, it stalled on the Naragansett
Switch for me. Talk about being red faced and blocking the
mainline.
;-) Sparky
Feh, spit happens ... nothing makes a motorman's day better than releasing, rolling back a few feet before power takes and ending up doing an unintentional add and trying to roll 20 cars, WITHOUT NOTICING until the trainmaster yells at you about your consist. Whoops. :)
I know things happen. But the uniqueness of a Third Avenue 600 series homebuilt Streetcar, when it starts acting cranky, due to a low charge of it's 12 Volt Automobile type battery. 99 44/100% of the visitors look at you, where did this looney come from. "An Automobile Battery", we're on a 'Streetcar'. But it happens. >G<
;-) Sparky
Could be worse ... that car could have required nine D cells and the thumping bunny. I've seen subway cars misbehave when the batteries got snotty too. Good job I wasn't there at the time, I woulda just blown my steam whistle and said, "everybody out and push." :)
NINE dead cars? Talk about a death march. Everybody out and push!
Yeah, that one got pushed back in the hole and didn't come out to play until it was able to write on the model board 100 times, "I will remember to bring motors." :)
Not even the Little Engine That Could would have been able to pull nine cars with dead motors. It would have said something like, "I think I can, I think I can, uh, I think I can (cough), I don't think I'm gonna make it (major coughing fit), AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
At the last NYTM Auction and Tag Sale (must have been close to 10 years ago now), I bid on, and won, an opportunity to spend an entire day with the crew of the Track Geometry Car (TGC-2). After a tour of the E 180th St shop, we examined the #2 Line from E 180th St to Flatbush Avenue. When it was over, I was allowed to operate it from 125th St to E 180th St. (I didn't even ask - it was more like, "hey, wanna try operating"? Like, DUH, man :) Now THAT was cool! The crew even commented on how smooth I was, with no experience.
Now doing something like that to raise money for a charity, or even the NYTM itself, would be a great idea. And we don't have to wait until a return of an Arnine. Maybe even something like moving trains around in a yard under supervision would do. For the TGC trip, I bid $50 for two people (my friend never showed up, more time for me :). I was prepared to bid far above that.
--Mark
How about having all eight operational in time to celebrate the opening of the Second Avenue subway? That would leave at least two decades to get them ready.
They'll be stains on the tracks before THAT happens. :)
Jeff:
I found 175 on the list... its "railway" is NYCTA, and I think I may have forgotten to list IND as a previous owner. I know running a search on Seashore Trolley Museum finds it.
Frank
I am 1 in favor of builing a link between the Bowery Station and the Grand Street Station. This would link North Chinatown with the station to get into the heart of Chinatown, and it would defintly increase the amount of people that use the bowery station. It would only take several months I believe, and I think it is worth it, anyone disagree?
Unfortunately, as well as months it would also take $$$$ which the system does not have.
With the connection to the F at Essex and to the Q/W at Canal (or the Q/N in the future there), a link at Bowery doesn't make much finanical sense, since B'way-Layfayette can be accessed for the B/D (after 2004) via the F and DeKalb will be available via transfer at Canal.
About the only way the Bowery can be intergrated into the rest of the system would be if somehow it could be hooked into a future Second Ave. subway line via Nassau Street, but with the jughandle curve that would be required at Delancey and Forsyth streets to do that, it would pretty much mean no 75-foot cars could use the connection (which might not be a problem since odds are by the time they ever build Second Avenue, the R-44, R-46 and R-68 cars will be long gone).
About the only way the Bowery can be intergrated into the rest of the system would be if somehow it could be hooked into a future Second Ave. subway line via Nassau Street,
More than likely, if the Nassau line was to be used for the 2 Ave subway, the connection would be made between Bowery and Canal. It would not be necessary to make a inconvenient jughandle just to include Bowery. It wouldn't make much sense to go east for a connection between Bowery and Essex, just to go West again on the Nassau's line towards Canal.
(which might not be a problem since odds are by the time they ever build Second Avenue, the R-44, R-46 and R-68 cars will be long gone).
The R160's will be long gone by the time the 2nd Avenue subway gets built.
If the tunnel's wide enough, 75-footers could do it. All you'd need would be a few feet of clearance between the tunnel wall and track. The R46 are currently using the Jughandle on the n/b "R" coming into Queens Plaza, and the R46 and R68 use the extremely tight curves north of Cortlandt.
wayne
"I am 1 in favor of builing a link between the Bowery Station and the Grand Street Station."
That link doesn't serve any real purpose. What itinerary would be improved by that link, once the MB is fully reopened?
6th Ave. to Broad St. or Jamaica: use the F and change at Delancey.
South Brooklyn to Jamaica when the M isn't running: use the N/R/W and change at Canal.
With the near isolation of the Eastern div., any additional link would be a definite help. when the other side of the bridge was open, there were plenty of B, D and on weekdays, Q service, which made the fast express run. This especially if coming from uptown or the6 3rd St line. I used to lose a lot of time having to get off and wait for the F (especially on weekends), just to have to change again (via the narrow stariway at Essex). Sometimes I would even just go to Grand and walk the lock and around the corner to Bowery (It got a bit easier over here having an unlimited Metrocard, and then employee pass). Sometimes I still do, if the shuttle comes first, with no sign of an F. (V running to Church would help also, as almost every time, it's a V that comes first). This is one of the links that adds another transfer to a section of the system that already requires more transfers than others. The connection was looked at to relieve congestion at the main entrance, but the new stairway on the west side of Chrystie is what they went with instead.
So a connection would have brought more people to a station known for its desolation.
It also could have made it easier to get away with not having to run the shuttle. People might not have protested loss of business, etc; if the station was kept open, but only served to lead to Bowery, where they could have the same one stop link to 6th Av as the shuttle (Essex), as well as a one stop link to the MB lines (Canal). If this had been pushe, they would not have to have extended the M either, because people would realize that at Canal they can transfer for a train to the Bowery, which would lead to Grand.
I think it would be a great. (If the money was available). It's the only station on the Nassau line that doesn't have a transfer(aside from Broad of course). If you are coming from Broadway/Brooklyn, there is no easy transfer to the B or D (service when the MB is open to 6th Ave trains). When I was a regular M user from Queens, it was not at all convenient to use 6th Ave-Manhattan Bridge service if need be. This transfer would really make it a lot easier. After the Chrystie connection severed the MB tracks from the Nassau line, MB service became almost useless for Broadway/Brooklyn riders. The B and D are one of the few lines that are really hard to transfer to from the Nassau line, especially if using the J or the M from Queens (again considering normal MB operation). The Nassau line is one of the best served lines in terms of transfers on it's short run through Manhattan. I think the Bowery-Grand connection would be a great addition, and even fairly needed.....if only money was available.
"When I was a regular M user from Queens, it was not at all convenient to use 6th Ave-Manhattan Bridge service if need be."
I think your problem was that the south side of the MB was closed. Now that it's open, the need for the link pretty much goes away.
Right now, there are Brighton line and west End trains at Canal.
Once both sides of the MB are open, there will almost certainly still be a Brighton line train at Canal. West End service is the only thing that could be a problem, and only at times when no J/M/Z trains run to South Brooklyn (if they do, change at Dekalb or Pacific for a West End train).
So it looks to me like the transfer really only is needed between Jamaica line and West End line at off-peak times when possibly no trains on the Jamaica line go to South Brooklyn. That's exactly what the M does right now, and everybody says it's almost empty outside of rush hour.
I think your problem was that the south side of the MB was closed. Now that it's open, the need for the link pretty much goes away.
Right now, there are Brighton line and west End trains at Canal.
You know, you are 100% right. When I used to use the M line, the Canal Bridge station was closed for the most part, and I must still have that image of trying to get across the MB, without the Q and W being at the Canal bridge station.
I haven't had to get from the M or J in Queens to the Manhattan Bridge lately, so I forgot that it is easier now.
IIRC from that other thread, Bowery is the least used station in Manhattan. But bear in mind two things: First of all those numbers don't take transfers into account, and at a station served by multiple lines there's no way of knowing which line those passengers are using. Second, Bowery and Broad are the only two stations on the Nassau St line in Manhattan without any transfers. See where I'm going here? Some of those other Nassau St. stations might also have similarly small ridership too on the brown line platforms.
(Noone ever calls the subway routes by their colors.)
:-) Andrew
(Noone ever calls the subway routes by their colors.)
Only tourists!
(Noone ever calls the subway routes by their colors.)
I did, on my recent visit to NY. But I was with my wife and stepson who aren't subway buffs, and we were all three being foreign tourists. It's easier to say "get on the red line" than "get on a 1,2,3 or 9, whichever comes first"!
Fytton.
It may be easier to say "Take the red line" But the 2 or 3 doesn't go to South Ferry. The 1 or 3 train doesn't go to Bronx Zoo. The 1 or 2 doesn't go to Harlem.
Usually when people ask about taking the red line, they mention where they want to go. You have to mention which train goes to where.
The 1 or 2 doesn't go to Harlem
That's news to me ...
That is what a tourist will discover if I tell them to take "The first red line train that comes" instead of "Take the #3 train".
Harlem stretches from the Harlem River to the Hudson, both the East and West Sides. It starts arround 96th on the East Side (That particular area being Spannish Harlem) and arround 123rd on the West Side. It extends to arround 155th on either side (though by that point the "East Side" has pretty much been gobbled up by The Bronx.)
:-) Andrew
The "red line" 1, 2 and 3 runs up the West side of Manhattan.
Yes, but as tourists we were just travelling between Chambers 1,2,3,9 dstation (where our hotel was) and various places in midtown.
Reminds me of when I was working at the Howard Beach-JFK station. There would be some people who have an hour or two between flights at the airport. They would ask me "How do I get to the city?" I would ask them "Where?". NYC is a large area. And that is just Manhattan. Different places require different directions. Without knowing exactly where someone is going, I can't give someone exact directions.
And quite frankly, if you and family were going to tour midtown, I suggest you take buses instead of a train. Unless you're Superman with the X-ray vision, you're not going to know what is upstairs from underground.
A bunch of non-tourists on Sunday asked me at Brooklyn Bridge how to get to Park Slope. One of them told me she hadn't ridden the subway in many years, but that she distinctly remembered getting the R at that station 15 years earlier. I tried to explain to her that the R wouldn't fit there, but she scoffed.
Hmmm, maybe she meant the old Nassau R special behind the wall at Chambers?
I would have told her the R was replaced by the M train a while ago. However that runs weekdays only. Then I would have told her to take the 4 train to Atlantic or walk across City Hall for the R train on B'way.
The R DID go there 15 years ago...that was the swan song of the "RJ Special" a k a "Banker's Special" service between 95th Street and Chambers Street. We've talked about it here on SubTalk...within the past few weeks, in fact.
David
Wasn't NX nicked as "Bankers Special?"
Arti
We were standing on the downtown IRT platform at Brooklyn Bridge. The R certainly never went there.
Reread my post -- it occurred to me while I was writing it that she might have meant the R rush hour specials at Chambers. But this was on Sunday afternoon on the IRT platform, and rush hour specials in a different section of the station complex were hardly on my mind.
They didn't even want the R -- they were going to take the R to 9th Street and transfer upstairs to the F.
Yeah, I know...I saw that David G. mentioned the R/Nassau Street train just as I was hitting the "send" button. Guess I can go into turkey coma without having the turkey yet!
David
>>>Guess I can go into turkey coma without having the turkey yet<<<
Ya gotta watch out for that L-Tryptophan.
Peace,
ANDEE
They didn't even want the R -- they were going to take the R to 9th Street and transfer upstairs to the F.
So why didn't they look at the map, take the J to Essex St and transfer to the F? Some people... AND they weren't even tourists!
Actually, we've recently passed the 15th anniverary of the Nassau St. R's elimination (I believe the exact date was 11/17/87).
A rather obscure train for someone who hadn't ridden the subway in 15 years to recall.
That's why I think she meant the City Hall BMT station across the park, not the Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall (at it's currently labeled) IRT station she was standing in.
It's easier to say "get on the red line" than "get on a 1,2,3 or 9, whichever comes first"!
Just like REAL New Yorkers used to say - take the Seventh Avenue Line or take the IRT, etc ---
They did that in Chicago (calling lines by their color after being known originally by their names), but you'd never see it here, and, come to think of it, you'd never see it in the Tube either - imagine calling the Bakerloo "the Brown Line"!
wayne
you'd never see it in the Tube either - imagine calling the Bakerloo "the Brown Line"!
Or even worse:
"I want a Purple Line train."
Imagine me explaining that there are in fact at least 8 different Metropolitan Line services...
Actually, I guess the old MTA map of the early 70's was an attempt at something like that. Each line was a different color (of course with a letter also). It is probably the most confusing, and almost un-readable map the subway ever had. There are just too many different lines in NY to make each one a different color.
Actually the current map layout was one of the only smart things that came out of the 70's for the subway. Color coding by Midtown trunk line is almost brilliant for the way NY's subway runs.
(Noone ever calls the subway routes by their colors.)
Only tourists!
Actually, that would probably make stations like Times Square, Union Square, and Grand Central even more busy than the stats actually show. For example, I was a regular everyday user of the Union Square station for about 3 1/2 years, but during that time, I only went through fare control at that station about 10 times - but I used the station hundreds of times. SO basically "transfer" stations are actually busier than the statistics show. But there really isn't a way to determine "actual" station use, especially for transfer station.
Abd even if it isn't a real "transfer" station in a complex, if more than one line runs on the same route they all become a sort of transfer station. For example, consider the Flatbush Branch. WHen the 5 is running with the 2 to Flatbush Ave, all the stations like President, Winthrop, Church, etc all become "transfer stations", even if they are not a complex.
I could start out on a 2 at Flatbush, but really be going to Lexington, and transfer at any of those stations to the 5. No one knows if I did that at Sterling Street or at Fulton, but that station had an extra passenger using it, without any record of it. The same scenario is repeated all over the system wherever two or more lines stop at the same station, whether it's a complex or just a little station along the line.
I got on an (N) train today at Queensboro Plaza, transfering from a (7) train, assuming the train I was boarding was all R40M. Imagine my surprise as I was exiting and the train was pulling out when I saw one, just one, R42 in the consist. I didn't get too good a look at it since I was being pushed by the flow of comuters down the stairs to the (4)(5), but it certainly was an R42. More where that came from?
In other news, last week as I pulled into QBP on a southbound (7) I saw what I was pretty sure was an R32 on a northbound (N). I thought there were no more R32s at Coney Island. But I couldn't be sure. It actually seemed more like an R38. If it was, then that little boy was lost!
:-) Andrew
There is one R-40M/R-42 married pair. It ended up at CIY even though no other R-42's are there yet.
Last I heard, there were still three R-32 trainsets at CIY. One of them was running on the W on Sunday (N 3638, S 3713). After giving up on a wild goose chase from Brooklyn to Queens to Brooklyn to get in front of it so I could get a picture, I met a 6-year-old railfan at the window who was remarkably knowledgeable about the subway. (Remarkably emotional, too. According to his mother, he cried when he learned about the fate of the Redbirds.)
(I didn't see any other R-32's or any R-40's on the W on Sunday. Were any running on the West End shuttle or was that all R-68/68A?)
There is no more West End shuttle, as all W trains run to Astoria at all times.
A Slant consist I believe starting in the 4400 area has been a regular worker on the West End since the N/W flip flop.
This past weekend there was a West End shuttle, running between 9th Avenue and Stillwell, signed (at least on the three trains I saw) as a yellow S. The W ran in both directions via the Sea Beach (local).
(Yes, that means there was both West End and Sea Beach service to Stillwell all weekend. Were there any major problems? If not, why can't there be both West End and Sea Beach service to Stillwell every weekend?)
On weekdays, the CIY R-40's (and R-40M's and R-42) still only run on the N and diamond-Q, with rare exceptions, and the remaining R-32's generally only run on the N. On weekends, the W usually gets a few sets, while the N runs few if any R-68(A) sets.
My observation was that this past weekend, I don't think there were any R-40(M)'s on the W, though there was one R-32 set. The West End shuttle isn't a standard line, so I can't go on observations from past weekends, but the three trains I saw were all R-68(A) sets.
I saw an R40 set on the W this past Saturday pulling out of Ditmars from my Amtrak train. But I could tell that it came off the N because the middle slant bulkheads that I caught before my train curved away were signed up as N.
Was that a Diamond "W" sign on it or a Circle "W"?
wayne
I was able to spot both circle and diamond W's on the sides of the train. I've seen that before on slant W's too, both on the front and side rollsigns.
Monday morning there was a set of slants leaving Ditmars that had one of the bulkhead signs in the middle of the train signed as a Yellow D. Think this came from the D line?
The yellow "D" was the temporary service they had during one of the closures/reroutes in the late 80's - when they had a split "D" service and had the southern half of it running as the current Circle "Q" does.
wayne
I know that 8-) It was a rhetorical question in response to R142 #2's statement that he could tell the slant W came off the N because a middle bulkhead displayed an N.
Well, that settles it. That train was obviously last used in 1988. It must have been hidden away on the Dyre express track or something.
or something.
Possibly 76th Street Station.
Or one of the completed 'sections' of the 2 Av subway ;-).
Maybe it was not used as a lead car for a while, so that might be why the yellow D is still in that rollsign that you saw.
Listen, buddy, no need to be sarcastic! My train happened to be going fast and the W train was pulling out of the station and I saw only a couple of middle bulkheads with N's on them. Plus it was early Saturday morning. So maybe it was an N train the night before, maybe it wasn't, I don't know. I don't do car assignments in Coney Island Yard and I'm not a train operator. But I know what I saw.
I'm just curious when the Manny Bridge opens to both B and D service the huge surplus of cars when the R68's (the lower numbers from 2500- 2734 of course 2717-2734 were reassigned to Concourse when the surplus R40 slants and modifieds came to CI) reappear on the southern division again what will happen to the older cars if they will sit, or will see an extra line like the W will stay as a surplus line to the B come late 2003, or early 2004.
I've seen quite a few R40 slants from 4400-4449 on the Q express. I mostly see 4414/4415, 4424/4425 and 4440/4441 mixed with other R40 slants. Maybe on weekends the 4400's are regulars on the W but on weekdays, the Q diamond takes the cake.
Interesting note about that married R40M/R42 set... that one was more than likely 4460/4665, common to the M line, and more notably each ones' original mate was involved in, and destroyed in the June 1995 Williamsburg Bridge accident. As for the sadness the child felt over the Redbirds, I feel his pain.....I liked the Redbirds!!
Wow, it looks like it is the beginning of the end of the Eastern Division's monopoly on the R42's that it has had since the rebuilding of them. It's going to be strange to see them on non-Eastern Division lines. I remember seeing every type of the current 60 foot car on the M in the 80's before they rebuilt them (R32-R42), so I know the R42's used to be on the other lines also. But, wow, it's been so long.
Of course we know the West End and 4th Ave in the SOuthern Division get's it's Taste of the R42's with the M down there. But it will be strange to see them on the N or even the W. Again, nothing spectacular, as the R42's ran the Sea Beach back in Sept 2001, and the West End sees them every day, but they are/were signed as M's not N or W.
If anyone has noticed theere are 8 cars or R38's in C I yard getting the bonnet paint job.Heard from reliable source look for occasional 38 to pop up in the south while they go through some touchups.The 32's have been going to Pitkin first not to Jamaica.Seems Jamaica is already Opperating at cappacity.
That probably explains the very welcome sight of more R32 on the "A" as of late.
wayne
Might be, saw 3 sets of R32 A trains on Friday but I haven't gotten the chance to ride any recently.
I was just on the R40M (or r42, not sure which). They've been on the N for at least a month now, maybe 2 or 3. The W also is running with an R40 slant or 2...
Where have you been? :o)
Yes. I knew there were R40Ms. No biggie. I didn't know there was an R42 in the mix.
Jeez!
:-) Andrew
Hey now... they're some of my favorite looking cars, and i can't even tell them apart...!
I guess i'm lucky enough to ride the line just about every day, and with so many different types of cars you just never know what you'll get. Keeps it interesting...
Hey now... they're some of my favorite looking cars, and i can't even tell them apart...!
Pretty simple. The R40M's have a skinny door on one end (just like the slants) and a normal door on the other end. The R42's have a normal tormdoor on each end. In addition the R40M's have a "dent" horizontally across the whole side of the car, while the R42's do not. Both very quick, simple observations, once you know that. There are some other minor differences on the inside, but nothing earth shattering.
Well, the R40M do not have the brushed silver panels all over the interiors; just the #940 Sand enamel like their Slant brethren. The grab bars behind the cabs are different on the MK R42 than the R40M (the NYCT R42 are the same).
wayne
Not to mention the side roll sign boxes in the R40's have those awkward beige frames between the three sections of the sign which the R42's don't have.
Yeah, after much deliberation, looks like my fiance & I will moving to Gravesend, just a couple blocks from the Sea Beach Kings Highway stop. Personally, I prefer the Sea Beach, but she plans to walk over to the Culver each morning...
I saw an R38 at Astoria as I passed overhead on the Hellgate Line tonight.
You will see one, single, solitary, lonely R42 mixed with the R40M consits on CIYD assigned lines. 4665 is the R42 and it is married to R40M 4460. Their mates were destroyed in the June 1995 WillyB crash.
Actually I also saw an R40M (non-slant) that was running on the Q Diamond this past week, due to the replacement of the R40M and R42 cars on the L Line (and coming soon on the M) with the R143's. We do expect to see more of the R40M and R42's on the N Line they have to reassingned somewhere else. How ironic that an R42 was shown on the film "The French Connection", with the N logo on the front on the train running on the West End Line. Final note: You may not see any R38's on the N, they are only about 190 cars running on the A and C lines.
the L Line (and coming soon on the M) with the R143's. We do expect to see more of the R40M and R42's on the N Line they have to reassingned somewhere else. How ironic that an R42 was shown on the film "The French Connection", with the N logo on the front on the train running on the West End Line.
Of course the R42's have been no strangers to the West End Line. They are there every weekday, of course with an M instead of an N.
i,am glad that at least one R42 is on the N line(i was wornding where
it was)i hope soon the R143 will see the M line,but why not the J line
is it because of the number of sets they ordered(220 em i right)or
are they going to wait until the R160 are ready.could ya tell me when these cars are gonna get scrapped(whish these cars could stay longer)
R32
R40
R42
R46
R62
R68
til next time
The R 143 is already on the M train but on the weekend shuttle service only.Go check it out.
i already konw that R143 run the m line on the weekend.i want to konw
when these cars are going to get scraped:
R32
R40
R42
R46
R68
til next time
Well the most certain is that the R40 and 42's will be the first to go when the R160's start coming in.Also the R38's.The R32 and R44/46 will probably be around another 10 years or so and the R68/68A's will be around another 20-30 years at least.
Oh yeah forgot to ask why you even bothered saying that you hope the R143 see's the M line soon if you already KNEW that it does on the weekend's? That really makes no sense at all.
i ment on the M line from bay pkwy to metropolitan av.
til next time
Some R32's, the R38 and R40 slants will probably get scrapped as soon as the R160's come in. The R44, R46 & R68 are nowhere near retirement so these car classes shouldn't have even been brought up. As for the rest of the R32, the R40M and R42, I say that they will hang on even when the R160's come in but I predict the 32's outlive the R38 & R40 and the 40M's and the 42's are gone by 2008, 2010 the latest.
nights also....seen 'em Thanksgiving evening....
I was wondering about the airtrain accident. I believe I read somewhere they used concrete to simulate passengers. Why didn't they use sandbags? That would have been much safer, I would think.
>>> I was wondering about the airtrain accident. <<<
Check the archives for the three weeks following the accident. You will find all kinds of facts, figures and wild speculation.
Tom
Last night I happened to catch the MRLI "Train Show" on channel 71.
Now sponcered by just Willis Hobbies & Nassau Hobbies, both of LI.
In this edition various attendees of the NMRA convention at Ft. Laurderdale, Fla were interviewed. Some interesting new products were highlighted, e.g. cardboard stencils to allow easy cloud making; miniture lighting (Hobo camp fire, flashing emerg veichels, etc.).
There was nothing there for the rapid transit ran :-(
What do you expect from Florida. Now, if that NMRA show was held in the north east, you could bet there would have been some RT representation. :)
(Hobo camp fire)
Several years ago my wife and I were in Lancaster, PA. We did all of thee touristy things including the tour of the Choo-Choo Barn layout. More than the trains, I was amazed at the animation incorporated into the layout. I recently purchased the Lionel Hobo Hotel (to compliment the Lionel Hobo Campfire) for my layout. Both accessories add a touch of period realism that I find fascinating. Both accessories command a fairly hefty price on E-bay. Now I hear that Lionel will re-release the Hobo hotel, albiet in NY Central instead of Santa Fe.
At the same time, K-Line has released the Caboose Yard Office and the Boy fishing from the bridge. I enjoy integrating these 'mini scenes' into my layout. It's not quite the same as the Choo-Choo barn style animation but they do add some interest to the layout. Just curious, though, have any of you come up with some really creative animated scenes for your model railroads? If so, I'd love to see the end product.
"Now I hear that Lionel will re-release the Hobo hotel,
albiet in NY Central instead of Santa Fe"
No doubt to celebrate our snazzy new train station in Rensselaer. :)
Steve, I have a 1-foot spacer module (Ntrak spec, used for intermixing 3' and 4' corners in a layout) that is enclosed on the sides (except for the minimum size opening for the trains) and top. It's not quite finished, but it is a hobo camp scene with flickering campfire (a purchased electronics kit), moon and fiber-optic stars in the sky, and an audio setup (that's what I need to finish). I think it will be quite effective once it's finished.
Some years ago I also constructed an operating water-powered mill scene in HO (the mill wheel actually turned by an electric motor, but water did come down a sluiceway and pass over it, being recycled by a small pump). That, unfortunately, was a casualty of the damage Hurricane Fran did to my barn in 1996, along with the rest of the partially-finished HO layout my older son and I had been building.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Part of the TV piece included a demo of how to construct a billboard in N scale, the one up high on a pole.
I have recently started to g to Mamaroneck to see the Acela train.I estimate that they comeby there at between 90-100 MPH.Where can I go to watch them hit 150MPH?
Only very limited portions of the route in Rhode Island and Massachusetts are good for 150 mph. On Metro-North tracks they are limited to the speeds allowed by Metro-North, no more than 90 mph. I believe they reach 135 mph in NJ.
Sharon to South Attleboro, MA and from Kingston to Westerly, RI.
I watched it go through Attleborro. It comes and goes very very quickly. Stand back and don't bother taking pictures or camcordering it until you've seen a few go by. They're very quiet and come and go very fast. By the time you notice it in the distance, it's at the station limits, by the time you turn your head, it's gone.
Joe Brennan continues to be the hero to all fans of subway curios.
His site was recently updated with some terrific new pics of the closed Worth Street station. Check it out!
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/worth.html
I saved the photo of the "WORTH ST" mosaic as the wallpaper on my computer screen.
Great work, Joe and thank you very much to your mysterious benefactor.
Wow, those are the best photos I have seen of Worth Street yet. I took many great photos of 91st, 18th, and some others on tours. And I was all signed up to go on the Worth Street tour, but I had an emergency the day the tour was given, and couldn't show up. A real shame because it was one of the last times (if not the last) they gave the tour.
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
................................................................oh well .............
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this before but I just found
this Subway map website
Hey, I've seen that site before! :-)
Larry, that's an impressive site!
Thanks!
I've bookmarked it.
unfortunately, it is not complete. in addition to missing some bmt and irt maps, there were maps in the late 40s and early 50s that were not represented there.
I'd be happy to add any missing maps you might have, if you'd scan in and send me any missing ones you might have.
-Larry
is there any way to view the entire map, not just the cover? I tried a few different maps and couldn't.
-Jeff
It seems the site only documents covers and not the actual maps themselves. Kid of pointless indeed. Though it was nice to see a black 5.
Kid of pointless indeed. Though it was nice to see a black 5.
Well you saw a map cover you havent seen before, so my site isn't TOTALLY pointess.
How does this site work? With one exception, when I click on a map all I see is its cover, not the inside.
How does this site work? With one exception, when I click on a map all I see is its cover, not the inside.
That's how it works! I just do this as a hobby, haven't gotten around to scanning all the maps yet. When I get around to it I will scan more.
BTW there are 5 exceptions, not one.
-Larry
OK, Thanks.
.. and if anyone has any map that's not on that page, if you send me a scan I will add it...
..or if you just want to send me the map :-)
-Larry
When I have the time (i.e., not now), I'll compare your collection to mine and see if I have anything you're missing.
Are you planning on scanning the entirety of each map? I was thinking of scanning some "key points" of each of mine -- the service guide and one or two sections of the map highlighting recent changes.
...Thanks
I started scanning the entire map, but now think that just the "key points" will be good. Some maps just have subtle changes from the previous ones.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't have said anything.
In any case, by now I probably have most 90's maps and some 80's maps (and a few from the 70's).
FWIW, the NYPL has a nice subway map collection, but they don't circulate and the map room doesn't have a scanner. (Come to think of it, why don't libraries have scanners?)
I'm amazed that a library as big as the NYPL doesn't have a scanner for public use. It would be useful for many research projects.
There may be a scanner somewhere, but I don't know where. Certainly not in the cramped map room, and maps can't be removed from the map room.
It may have something to do with copyrighted material but I am not sure.
>>> why don't libraries have scanners? <<<
©
Tom
If scanners are a © problem, then so are photocopy machines.
At the very least, a library that doesn't circulate its materials should have scanners.
>>> If scanners are a © problem, then so are photocopy machines. <<<
When the time comes that copy machines in general are digital, so that a copy of a page can be put on a diskette as easily as on a piece of paper without paying a premium price for the machine, libraries will offer that option. But do not expect libraries to bring in scanners as an extra cost item.
Scanners make it much easier to publish library materials (particularly to the internet) than photocopiers. Remember, the fair use doctrine allows only copying of excerpts. Copiers fulfill that need. Usually libraries will make arrangements with serious scholars to allow them to bring their own scanners, if they can be persuaded that it is necessary.
Tom
Cheap scanners are very cheap. If they're hooked up to the Internet, anyone with storage space elsewhere can simply ftp it over.
Self-service photocopy machines and self-service scanners are no different in principle; in both cases, the onus of not violating copyright law is on the individual, not on the library. In some cases, scans are more useful than photocopies -- for instance, color copies are very expensive, but a black-and-white photocopy of a subway map is next to useless.
And not every library item is copyrighted (anymore), anyway.
There are libraries with scanners. I'm thinking of university libraries that happens to have on-site computer labs. But they're not common outside of universities, AFAIK.
"There are libraries with scanners. I'm thinking of university libraries that happens to have on-site computer labs. But they're not common outside of universities, AFAIK"
SIBL at 34th and Madison had a scanner when I was there, about a year ago.
Although even if there was a scanner in the NYPL, it wouldn't do any good if they didn't have it in the map room, where apparently you can't take the maps out of the room.
To solve the computer problem, isn't there a way that they can use those printer/copier/scanners, where you can scan the image, but it doesn't save anywhere, just copies it (maybe for an at cost fee or something), Or like David suggested, if an internet connection is there, just be able to email it to yourself.
"Although even if there was a scanner in the NYPL, it wouldn't do any good if they didn't have it in the map room, where apparently you can't take the maps out of the room."
They have a photocopier somewhere; you can get a map copied for about $5. The map never leaves their hands. If they had a scanner in the same place, you could give them a writeable CD and they'd scan and bring you the CD back. All it would take is investment on their part.
Or try bringing a digital camera with a macro setting, and shoot at a high resolution.
"Come to think of it, why don't libraries have scanners?"
I actually asked the NYPL at 42nd St a few years ago if they had a scanner. They said no, but that they were working on it.
I can see some issues:
- They can't have just one, because then the wait for it would be years.
- They have to decide what media they will support (3.5" diskettes, or write the scanned images to a CD, or what). Whatever they do, people will complain.
- They also need to buy computers to run them.
- They need trained staff to run them, or else have a set up where the public does their own scanning but can't break anything (how do you prevent "format c:"?).
All in all, it probably comes to a lot of money, which is in short supply in libraries these days.
What about scanning the subway line "route" description box on the map?
That's what I mean by the service guide. It's (IMO) the most interesting part of the map.
I have a few you are missing:
December 1991
April 1993
MTA Regional Map (the first "The Map")
2 out of the 3 Tennis Maps
I too have bookmarked it----Notch It, do you have any duplicates that you might be willing to sell?
Mark
After the holidays, I will see what duplicate maps I have and put some up on eBay.
What year(s) might you be looking for?
--Mark
I like to look at it from work, but its domain is not in the USA.
But it IS!
Isn't subway.com.ru is Russia?
It's in Brooklyn
Actually, I registered the domain through the Russian Institute for Public Networks (RIPN) because I liked their FREE domain registration.
But the website is located in Brooklyn NY USA!
-Larry
Free domain registration? Where do I go?
Come on. You can buy domains for $8 per year. Spend the money and get the name you want.
Really? Is that how you got railfanwindow?? :-)
Please divulge as to what website you went to?
Yes, I own Railfanwindow.com for $8.95 per year. For example, you can go to http://www.godaddy.com and buy the domain of your choice for $8.95 per year. Of course that doesn't include server space. It is just the name.
It was $8 less than 24 hours ago (see your earlier post) and it's already gone up to $8.95?
I guess you better buy now or you might be too late!!!
I have another inquiry. What website do you recommend for server space?
I use Dixiesys. They are pretty good. The best deal is $3.95/month for 200MB of space, but every once in a while they do a "2 for 1" sale that doubles what you get. So for $3.95/month, you instead get 400MB of space. Rumor has it they will be having another one of these sales early next month.
Nice... Thank you very much.
Here is an item up for sale on eBay (not by me).
Click here to see
Can anyone tell me under what circumstances these tickets were issued?
"THIS TICKET IS ISSUED BECAUSE OF A BLOCK."
A service outage, in other words. They're still issued, although they look a bit different now.
That is an old Block Ticket. It was issued when there was a blockage (Train NOT Running) on a subway line by the clerk at the station. Not to be confused with a GO ticket which is another ticket. It was good for up to 48 hours after the time it was issued. A person was to take the ticket, leave the station and walk to another line to continue their journey to wherever they were going. However there was no way of knowing when the tickets were actually issued. Unlike now.
Here is an item up for sale on eBay (not by me).
Click here to see
Can anyone tell me under what circumstances these tickets were issued?
I recall these or similar tickets issued because of blockage on a streetcar line as by a disabled car, fire adjacent to the tracks, etc.
When I was a kid we received something like this when a PCC broke down in the front of us. Our car pushed the disabled car and we used the ticket to board the following car, but we could have used it on another line.
That's just an old block ticket, something that's given out at stations when there is a major disruption in service...I've gotten quite a few of those over the years. They probably STILL give them out if something happens, a derailment, train with brakes in emergency, any time the train you're riding isn't going anywhere for awhile. The token booth clerks give them out, if I remember correctly.
I think they're still used. I know I've seen then as late as the early to mid 90's, but of course "Board of Transportation" was replaced with "New York City Transit Authority". It was always helpful when these block tickets were given out because they were accepted on any TA/OA bus or at any subway station and they didn't have the date/time on them.
Wayne
If memory serves, they were supposed to be date/time stamped when issued and were good for 72 hours after issue.
David
Block tickets are now good for "Today's date and 2 days afterward".
They probably did have intentions of date/time stamping them. However, In those old days I've never seen one with date/time info.
Wayne
The posters say that Queens-bound Es and Vs skip Lex until 9:30am, but how firm is that time? Do trains begin stopping at Lex after 9:30, or is it done acording to trains that are normally scheduled to reach Lex at 9:30?
Mark
My grandchildren usually reserve Sunday for their grandparents. They spend the early part of the day with their dad's folks and then I pick them up and bring them to my house for the later part of the day. Their other grandparents live in Deer Park which (in my round about way) brings me to the point of this post.
On each of the last 4 Sundays that I've picked them up, I've driven along the Ronkonkoma branch ROW from Brentwood to Deer Park. Each time, I've seen the NY & Atlantic hauling freight. In addition, I've been seeing NY & A moving freight through Jamaica on weekdays into the PM rush.
It seems to me that if NY & A is hauling freight at premium times like during the PM rush and on Sundays, the Long Island economy must be stronger than the Pols would have us believe. Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing. I saw a fairly long freight (for Long Island's standards) roll through Bellport on the Montauk Branch last Saturday. (It has the GP38 with the WTC memorial painted on it). I actually see them more and more on the weekends.
Either the economy is stronger on Long Island than we thought - or maybe the NY&A at least is trying it's best to run a good and efficient freight service which the LIRR freight department was trying to purge for years. I have to give the NY&A credit, they really have been doing a good job considering the condition LIRR's freight business was in when they took it over. But of course there's nothing to haul if the economy on LI is bad, so maybe it's a combination of both.
I also should mention that NY&A, in partnership with some of the local industries, will be repairing the Calverton Spur so NY&A can replace trucks for deliveries. Of course the local Pols are talking about how many trucks will not be using the LIE once this line is re-opened.
"The economy" is the sum of regions and industries. NYC, the airlines, and tourist dependent industries (post Sept. 11th) Wall Street, telecommunications and information technology (post-bubble) are doing poorly. Most other industries, and regions that don't have concentratios of those industries, are fair. NYC unemployment is 7.9 percent. Unemployment in the rest of the state is 4.4 percent. Tulsa OK, which had a concentration of energy and telecom firms, is in a depression.
"The economy" is the sum of regions and industries. NYC, the airlines, and tourist dependent industries (post Sept. 11th) Wall Street, telecommunications and information technology (post-bubble) are doing poorly. Most other industries, and regions that don't have concentratios of those industries, are fair. NYC unemployment is 7.9 percent. Unemployment in the rest of the state is 4.4 percent. Tulsa OK, which had a concentration of energy and telecom firms, is in a depression.
NYC's unemployment rate is almost always higher than the national and state averages, in good times and bad.
In some ways, the city is lucky given the particular mix of industries that are currently hard-hit. Airlines are in truly bad shape, but NYC doesn't actually have a high percentage of airline jobs compared to many other metro areas. It also is less dependent on telecom jobs than other places. So it's important to recognize that things could be much worse.
You missed Wall Street, which is in the dumps with the combination of the stock market slump and post-Enron/WorldCom/… mistrust.
The year-end bonuses will be very slim to none, which translates into a lot less discretionary spending. Given the size of the industry this has a significant trickle-down effect.
Remember 1987?
John
"It also is less dependent on telecom jobs than other places."
Northern NJ is quite dependent on telecom jobs, with AT&T and the many offshoots that ex-AT&T employees have founded. Many New Yorkers work or worked there; many have been laid off.
If the economy is bad, there's maybe 5% less freight to haul than when it's good, or at most 10% less.
A well run railroad ought to be able to relieve the trucking industry of a lot of its Long Island business, even in a poor economy (and this economy is more level than a real drop). Trucking is fine if it's a small load going from one point to another with relative urgency. But if a few extra days is no big deal, and/or the load is larger, rail is the way to go.
I think the only reason rail was so weak on LI is because of being badly managed.
It seems to me that if NY & A is hauling freight at premium times like during the PM rush and on Sundays, the Long Island economy must be stronger than the Pols would have us believe. Thoughts?
It's hard to say. The Long Island economy indeed is in fairly good shape, with quite a bit of commercial construction in progress and reasonably low unemployment. Whether that's why there is an increase* in NY&A traffic is another matter. While LI's economy is in decent shape today, it was in better condition a few years ago, when there was less freight traffic. What we may be seeing is simply better management on the NY&A's part.
* = I would be interested in knowing whether the freight traffic statistics actually bear out this perception.
NY&A is just doing damn well for itself. In july they hauled 1344 cars, their record high. (though their record high seems to increase every month or 2!)
While i can't speak for the actual train lengths on LI, I can say that what comes in and out over Hell Gate has been a pretty significant increase compared to the old conrail/lirr days. back then there was but one 5 day a week turn from oak point to fresh pond, consisting of 20-60 cars..
These days, CSX seems to haul at least that much, plus the 3 day per week CP train of 5 to 25 cars, and the twice weekly (seasonal) P&W stone trains. Apparently CP doesn't have nearly enough cars to haul the stone they're bringing in, and only recently started using the 65th yard (unloading lots of boxcars - NYA handles the run down the bay ridge line.. ) - once they get more hoppers the trains will be longer.
Rail freight on LI finally seems to be in good, response, profit oriented hands, and having the conrail monoply broken up certainly hasn't hurt, either. I'd expect to see a lot longer of trains in the future...
Is this the tail-end of the backlog from the Pacific ports strike?!
John
Or just finished goods going to distribution centers for the holiday season.
Rode Amtrak's Vermonter home today from Meriden CT and i saw some interesting things on the New Haven Line.
First, from SS73 to the Housitanic River draw-interlocking, the northern most track is out of service for concrete tie installation and bridge renewal. The disturbing thing was that the catenary above that track (1918 New Haven 3 wire inline style) had been removed. Catenary quality arguements aside, this stretch of track through Millford is currently rated for 90 mph so shouldn't they maybe start on slower parts of the line?
Second, its getting sadder and sadder for all of us Triangle Cat fans out there. between STAM and the NY border, european style catenary is now in service on tracks 1 and 2 and the triangle cat is in the process of being removed on the #3 track. It is still in service on the #4 track so get your pictures in while you can For all of you fconstant tension proponants (Phil) linespeed on the #2 track was the same as the #4 track. so now when we wait we just don't have any ptretty catenary to look at any more.
I got some ripping photographs out the back window of my Amtrak train. At one point we were pacing a lite MNRR GP-35 and at another point we were pacing an CDOT MU train. I got some great closeup shots.
ok from New Haven to about Milford track 3 is called track 5 as it was downgraded to industrial siding about 16 years ago, its not being rebuilt, mainly because the many switches into industries.
the track numbers are on New haven line track closest to Long Island sound is track 4 then track 2 , track 1 and norhern(inland track) is track 3.
currently track 4 and 2 are done from Statline to Stamford.
track 1 is out of service and track 3 still has the triangular catenary.
also the track speed from New Haven to Devon is only max 75 with only 60 tru Milford.
You THINK its 75. MNRR MU engineers frequently trip the overspeed at 90mph. Amtrak trains also get really going in there as well.
Hey, do you know the lsit of SS interlocking numbers and later PC names?
Excuse me, you mean a train control system is allowing speeds of 15mph over MAS??
That sounds strange.
The CLEAR cab signal has no inherant speed associated with it. The rulebook defines it as whatever the linespeed is and its up to the Engineer to Run at the Linespeed. Most commuter agencies will put in a max speed, but this speed has to be the highest allowable speed on any segment of the line. Because MNRR trains can go 90 in NY State, they will only overspeed at 90. When I have been on the Super Express to New Haven, there are places in the past Stamford zone where we start to really fly and the overspeed whistle starts blaring from the cab.
yea especially around Mamaroneck u can hit 95-104. i had a M-2 with wheels and a speedometer that wasnt Callibrated. best i hit was 95. on the hudson i have had a Genesis hit 112, between New Hamburg and Poughkeepsie
That run from Croton to Poughkeepsie is wicked fast. I generally think of MNRR really pokey (due to all my time on the New haven line which is overall extremely slow), but in certain places the trains can really whip. When I was on the Maple Leaf it felt like we were going up over 100mph, but there was nothing I could find the actual speed from. On the CSX hudson line we were clipping along at 90-95, but even that felt slow compared to the MNRR portion above Croton. Do you know why MNRR dosen't get a higher (class 6) rating for the track below Croton?
probably because a Amtrak is usually in front of a cannonball express to NY, and MAS below harmon is 80, and MNRR cab signals tend to bother u if u go over 75. best places for speed are above harmon on the hudson, on the harlem any express to brewster North, and NH is usually a express making stamford first stop. those are my favorites. of course u do kno they have better cannonballs like the 313 on a weekday afternoon poughkeepsie train making harmon first stop!!!!
my bad
Mike. Let's end this once and for all. Grab yourself a GPS and watch the speed. The whitstle you're hearing (I bet right around Devon) is ASC flipping. 15 over on ANY RR is pretty much a decertifiable offense, and there's event recorders on all those trains, and from what I've heard, MN reads them quite regularly.
Larchmont is 90mph, and they'll go as fast as the ASC will allow, though it's supposed to pop at 90ish. I've timed 95mph through the m/m there, but the ASC was allowing it, so it must have been misadjusted. I've been on LIRR trains that have hit 90, too. Yeah, you can go that fast on third rail.
On my bike, I normally paced MN through Larchmont and parralleling I-95 at about 85 - 95ish, depending on the day and crew.
First there is no ASC on the New haven line, its US&S 4 aspect CSS. The ASC system is only installed on the LIRR. Second at 90 (or even 75) if the cab signal alertor whistle did go off due to a change in code, it would necessitate a speed reduction to 45 or even 30 mph. That is fairly different than the E/R slowing down 10 or so mph and then gunning it until the whistle goes off again. The E/R on my train was getting the whistle every few minutes on the NY State section with the 90mph linespeed and it happened ocasionally on the suposidly 75 portion of the line. The whistle also did not coinside with any track circut block boundaries (which are ovbious via the impediance bonds).
I am a neophyte to the New Haven line,but from my own observation,the train hit about 90 through the bronx on the third rail,and about 95 passing through Rye and Mamaroneck(thru Mamaroneck is the fastest IN MY OPINION!!!)
"I am a neophyte to the New Haven line,but from my own observation,the train hit about 90 through the bronx on the third rail"
I'd be interested to know where you observed this and how you can be sure of the speed. I have never seen MNRR trains in the Bronx going significantly faster than the cars on the Bronx River Parkway (i.e., approx. 60 mph).
I was on the train,whenit hit about 90MPH between the Fordham and Woodlawn stations.
"I was on the train,whenit hit about 90MPH between the Fordham and Woodlawn stations."
I still am interested to know how you know it was going 90.
After riding the LIRR which goes 80 MPH,this Metro North train was going faster than anything I ever went on the LIRR.Maybe it was not EXACTLY 90MPH,but it was pretty damn close to it.
I noticed today that mosaics have been installed on the uptown side of 8th Street station on Broadway. There are a number of circular scenes of various sizes depicting the surrounding neighborhood. Didn't have time to take photos of all of them, here are the 3 that I got...
They did another great job. I guess it is supposed to look like portals looking out into the neighborhood. A class-act job.
That was quick! All I saw there on Sunday were empty spaces. I take it the mosaics are assembled offsite.
Thanks to all for the previous info,Could I please trouble anyone for the Directions to the Rhode Island and Mass sites where the 150MPH acelas are(you can lead me from Rte 95 in either state,thats fine)Thanks!
Go to Mansfield, MA.
I-95 to exit 7A, that's route 140 south. Go three traffic lights to Route 106, and make a left. In about a 1/2 mile, you'll see the railroad overpass -- the station is right there.
Figure that AE passes Mansfield about seven minutes before/after its scheduled stop at Route 128.
Does anyone know when the Jamaica El closed east of 121st Street?
It closed Septemeber 11th, 1977 (sort of an ironic date) between Queens Blvd and 168th Street.
I don't know the exact date of the closure between 121st Street and Queens Blvd, but I believe it was some time in 1985.
I also have another question. Why did they replace five el stations with two subway stations (Archer Ave Extension)? Was the el that bad?
As described on another thread elsewhere, the Archer Avenue Extention was supposed to have gone further than Parson's Blvd. TA was supposed to have taken over/captured/operated with one of the LIRR branches coming out of Jamaica Station (Sutphin Blvd) and run to South East Queens. But someone objected and the planned extention went only to Parson's Blvd.
No one objected...the NYC fiscal crisis in 1975-76 killed all MTA expansion projects until the Archer Ave. subway itself was completed in 1988. The E train was supposed to extend from the Archer Ave. upper level onto a r.o.w. adjacent to the LIRR Atlantic Branch to give one-fare service to Southeast Queens. The advent of Metrocards has eliminated the two-fare zone issue; limited stop buses on some key routes feeding Parsons/Archer has also helped.
The (E) train was supposed to be running out to south east Queens and not the (J). In the mid eighties, the E.R.A. had a walking tour of the Archer Ave subway of which I attended. The subways were still under construction and wearing hard hats, we walked both Archer Ave lines to the end. The end of the (J) was some one or two train lenghts past Parsons-Archer and was your typical dead end wall. The line could be easily extended if the $$$$ was available.
On the (E) line, the line does duck under the LIRR and come up on the other side of the LIRR ROW ending with a wall too. That's where they could connect the ramp to the LIRR ROW if the $$$$ made it possible. The tour was called "walk off the turkey" since it was the day after Thanksgiving. And walk off the turkey we did! We even walked the line to Jamaica-Van Wyck and as far as where the new subway connected to the existing IND QB subway. That's where the unused ramps would have gone to the Van Wyck subway that never materialized. At the end of the tour we turned in our hardhats and I returned there in December of 1988 when Archer Ave opened.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, that sounds like an interesting tour. When did you go on it, in the early 80's?
Also where was the "Van-Wyck" subway supposed to run between?
It was supposed to run down Van Wyck Blvd. to 120th Ave as part of the IND Second System.
>>Bill, that sounds like an interesting tour. When did you go on it, in the early 80's?<<
November 1983.
Bill "Newkirk"
That sounded like a great tour!
--Mark
One plan was for the Parsons Extension, primarily the E line, to run east from the present dead-end curve east of Parsons (presently used for E line off-hour layups) run under the York College grounds, to the intersection of Merrick and Liberty Avenue, where the line was to go east, via Merrick Blvd to, as I heard the destination would be, Green Acres Mall. As for the J, I never heard if there was ever gonna be an extension east for the J level, but the extension was definitely supposed to be done for the E line.
The second plan was for the E line to go as planned to Liberty/Merrick intersection, continue east under Liberty to a point just before the LIRR Montauk Div. ROW, where it was due to (but we all know why this would have never worked) come out of the tunnel in a section of the Holban MOW yard on the south end of Hillside yard before St. Albans station, and "share" the ROW all the way to Springfield Gardens, and branch off (via a built ROW for NYCT trains) to Green Acres Mall. These were original plans, but they were erased from the drawing board.
Why did they replace five el stations with two subway stations (Archer Ave Extension)? Was the el that bad?
In their ultimate wisdom, they were trying to solve Jamaica Avenue's business district's woes by removal of the el to let in the "daylight". Instead they made a bad situation worse, because after the el was removed, Jamaica Avenue got even worse because now it lost it's easy transportation to the area. Jamaica Avenue is only now, in recent years, recovering from the loss of the el. Of course the el removal wasn't the only cause of Jamaic Avenue's decline, it started way before the el was removed. But removal did not solve the problem, in fact it may have helped make it worse.
The el itself was not in any worse shape than the remaining portion of the el. It was built at the same time, and the removal was aesthetic, not structual because it was so bad.
As for the Archer Avenue extension, that subway line was supposed to go much further than Jamaica Center. In it's original plan the lower level (E) was supposed to come up to the LIRR ROW after Jamaica Center and continue further along the LIRR to Springfield Gardens or somewhere in Eastern Queens. But the 70's fiscal crisis killed that along with the 2nd Ave subway and original 63rd Street project. So when they finally completed it in 1988, Jamaica Center was as far as it got.
In it's original plan the lower level (E) was supposed to come up to the LIRR ROW after Jamaica Center
Duh, obviously I meant the upper level (E).
Actually they replaced 5 stations with 3. Jamaica/Van Wyck (on the E) is about halfway between where the Metropolitan Ave. and Queens Blvd. stations were along Jamaica Ave., and Sutphin/Archer and Jamaica Center replaced the Sutphin and 160th St. stations. The only station which wasn't replaced was 168 St.
-- Ed Sachs
It's worth remembering that the old el line along Jamaica Avenue was quite near the Hillside Avenue IND line (which has stations at Sutphin, Archer, 168th & 179th). The new subway to Sutphin and Archer is further south, hence serves a slightly more different area; Jamaica/168th people could presumably walk to the F.
"The new subway to Sutphin and Archer is further south"
Negligibly so. Hillside to Jamaica Ave. is about 2000'. Jamaica to Archer is 200' at Parsons (maybe 300' at Sutphin).
It did make the Jamaica-Sutphin-LIRR connection easier, and more of a hub. ALthough that shows the decline of Jamaica Ave easier also after the el was removed. All those commuters that used to tranfer from the LIRR to the J at Sutphin no longer walk along there patronizing the local shops. It may sound trivial, but tell that to someone like a coffee shop owner, or deli or something that relied on that foot traffic at the time.
I have a friend who attended a parochial high school in the '70s that was located on Jamaica Avenue, right next to the 168th Street station on the el. He told me that during those years that he had classes in rooms that faced the el, the screeching of the wheels as they passed over the switches as the trains entered and left 168th Street was so bad, the teachers had to stop talking until the trains passed. This was true even in winter when the windows were sealed tight.
This may have been due more to deferred maintenance but it was still annoying. I think the City also wanted to liven up Jamaica Avenue to commercial use so they yanked the el off the street. Did it help? Not really.
IIRC, service past Queens Blvd. terminated on 9/9/77, even though there are pics on this site showing fantrips on the 11th.
From Queens Blvd to 168 St closed in 1977, so it was cut back to Queens Blvd and then later on to 121 St around 1985.
IIRC the line was cut back to 121st St. in April of 1985. There were maps printed with a note about the impending closure. I saw one such map, but don't have a copy of it.
I have one, as well as a brochure detailing the closure and the exentsion of the Q49 bus to 121st St.
Not a single mention was made as to why this was being done.
I do remember the only thing written on the map was "The Metropolitan Ave. and Queens Blvd. stations have been permanently closed and slated for demolition." They sure took their sweet time dismantling that el segment. I drove along it in October of 1988 on the day my sister got married, and it was still intact.
I drove along it in October of 1988 on the day my sister got married, and it was still intact.
I believe it was intact for quite some time after that also, Archer opened in December 88, and I remember seeing it there. I think I even remember seeing it lasting into the 90's.
The Jamaica Ave el between 130 St and Sutphin Blvd wasn't demolished until August to November 1990, except the bridge over the LIRR at 130 St wasn't demolished until May 1991.
Yes, and what a sad sight. Brought back bad childhood memories of watching the 168th-Sutphin portion being demolished 12 years prior.
Yes, it wasn't demolished until late 1990. It was an eyesore for over 5 years and the mezzanine at Metropolitan Ave was a notorious drug/prostitution den for a time.
A sad way for it's life as a station to end.
I rode on a Parsons-Archer-bound J in October of 1990 and saw what was left of the el structure beyond 121st St. By then, the lattice girders had been removed and only the steel columns and cross pieces remained.
Does anyone know when the Jamaica El closed east of 121st Street?
The day after it was still open?
hardy-har-har 8-)
The segment from the LIRR ROW at 130th Street & Jamaica Av. (the former Metropolitan Avenue "J" station) thru Queens Blvd. Station east to the end of the structure at Sutphin Blvd. had seen its' last train I believe was around late 1986 or very early 1987. When the finishing touches were being done on the Archer Ave. extention in 1987, the tracks had finally been disconnected from the rest of the J line and the connecting structure from where the turnoff off viaduct for the Archer extension presently is to just by the LIRR ROW on 130th Street and Jamaica was removed. The structure remained until late 1991, when the whole remaining portion from the LIRR ROW by 130th St. and Jamaica Av. to the dead-end at Sutphin Blvd. was finally torn down. The rest of the ROW that existed from Sutphin to 168th I am not sure of when that was all taken out of service and removed. I believe sometime around early 1978 it was completely removed from that section...I am not completely sure, but I think it was around that time.
Does anyone know when the Jamaica El closed east of 121st Street?
April 13, 1985.
East of Queens Boulevard the exact date was already given.
Actually, 4/15/85. I rode through them on the last day (no fanrips in sight).
I've seen numerous posts noting the progress of the R142 and R143 deliveries (noting the highest number in the fleet etc.) but haven't noticed (maybe I overlooked it) anything regarding the R142A. Are they all in yet or are there still some left to be delivered?
thanks,
wayne
All R-142As have been delivered. The last set, 7721-30, entered service on the 4 recently.
-Stef
So what's the status of the 4's R-33's?
R-33 Fleet is shrinking. IIRC, there are about 34 cars still in service.
-Stef
Thank you, Stef - does that include the option order?
wayne
Everything. They are way ahead of Bombardier.
-Stef
Everything. They are way ahead of Bombardier.
We get Bombardier ads out here in NORTH DAKOTA,
apparently they are selling four wheel atvs out here.
They are on back order too!
Elias
But the R142A car order was much smaller than Bombardier's. 520 v. 1030.
I posted on Tuesday moring that R143 are up to 8268, whitch are 44 cars or 11 sets short of a full fleet.
Robert
For those in the Washington, DC metropolitan who want to do some trainspotting, a good location is the Bowie Railroad Museum. The former tower was converted to a museum and sits along the ROW, slightly moved back from its former location. Hours are Noon to 4.
The Museum is on Chestnut Street in Bowie, MD.
Michael
Washington, DC
In Philly, people used to congregate at Frankford Junction, even after the "no tresspassing" signs were put up. But since 9-11, such signs are respected, and the pedestrian bridge at Wheatsheaf Lane (just east of Frankford Jct) is a location of choice. I expect to be there if it's not pouring rain.
Hi folks,
Just a quick note to let y'all know that I released version 3.4 of Tracks of the NYC Subway this afternoon.
If you have version 3.3 there's not too much new this time around--just the current state of affairs at Canarsie and the most recent fleet updates. It's more a reprint of 3.3 but I re-did much of the verbiage in the yards section.
If you don't have version 3.3, however, I'd recommend grabbing a copy of the latest one which depicts all of September's changes, adds lots of new material regarding Canarsie and a whole lot more. I think there were over 250 changes between version 3.2 and 3.3, and about 15 or 20 changes between 3.3 and 3.4.
3.4 will likely be around until next May barring anything totally unforseen, and there will be free updates as soon as Q2 track is finally opened at Atlantic Avenue and the line gets restationed. I will also post free updates when the new signals get cut in on the 2/5 in the Bronx.
For the first time, I have a print ad running for the new edition in January's Trains magazine. Additionally, the London Transport Museum, Ian Allan's and Motor Books in London will soon have it in stock for everyone in the UK. (Would be nice if someone locally would carry it too, but I guess I ask a lot < grin >.)
As always, thanks to the many posters and contributors here on SubTalk and to the many who've helped make my book a success in the railfan community.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
Will there be any to buy on the Redbird fantrip ? If so, how much ?
Still banned from the Transit Museum ?
Today a train of R142As pulls in to a station on the Lex, toots
as it enters and makes a station stop. It is a schoolcar train
replete with fully-vested trainees. The conductor trainee sticks
her head out, salutes the board, and appears to go through the
usual station cycle. The doors do not open, however all the
exterior guard lights come on. Then she "closes down" the
rear section, guard lights extinguish, then the front, then
the train takes off.
How is this done? Is there a special "training mode" on the
computer console?
not really just hit the circuit breaker.
7111-15 are on the property as of tonight.
-Stef
The thing that bugs me the most about the LIRR is the inconsistency of the engineers.The speed limit is 80MPH,yet despite a clear track ahead of them,(meaning no other trains in that block ahead of them)a lot of engineers poke by at 35-40MPH!! I have seen whole rush hours on the main line slowed to a glacial crawl due to a few fearful engineers.It seems more prevalant on the M-1s and 3s possibily due to an exaggerated acknowledgement signal,but I have also seen it with the DMs too.I hope to god that the LIRR is not going to follow in the foot steps of the NYCTA as far as speed is concerned and cripple the entire railroad with "high speed rapid transit trains"reaching breakneck speeds of 30 MPH!! For crying out loud the steam engines were able to reach 110 MPH!!!! Did anyone know that the run from Jamaica to Montauk was just a trickle over 2 hours in the early part of the century?
Did anyone know that the run from Jamaica to Montauk was just a trickle over 2 hours in the early part of the century?
True, but the trains were running through extremely rural areas, with less grade crossings, less people, very few cars/carriages, and farms. A far cry from the suburban sprawl much of Long Island had become.
True, but the trains were running through extremely rural areas, with less grade crossings, less people, very few cars/carriages, and farms. A far cry from the suburban sprawl much of Long Island had become.
Last time I looked (back in the 80's0 THERE WERE NO GRADE CROSSINGS on the Babylon Branch!
But while the wayside signal may show "Clear" the cab signal may show "40".
Elias
maybe there was a speed restriction in the area, or if there was severe weather conditions special instruction 100W might have been in effect. cause when i ride the LIRR, the only trains that are slow are the ones around jamaica. The mainline from NY-jamaica he was hitting 75 before ATC was bothering him, and on the Atlantic branch between jamaica and Valley stream, BOTH M1,M3 and the new M7 have hit 78 close to 80! especially if the speedometer isnt Callibrated
I guess you never rode the Babylon branch trains on a given day!! Unless there aren't any existant "15 Code" slowdowns, or track or signal maintenace, the trains routinely reach between 75 to 80.
As for the rush hour, depending on what part of the Main Line you were referring to, the Main Line (primarily Penn to Hall Interlocking east of Jamaica), you are talking of a traffic density of hundreds of trains running east between 4PM and 7:30PM, especially given they leave Penn every few minutes running literally one behind the other, even with Main Line running set for 3 tracks eastbound operation. How much speed do you want with the trains running so close, and the density doesn't count the additional LIC and Hunterspoint trains!! And with NYAR freights out east, equipment moves from Hillside west to Penn, plus trains from Flatbush running east via the Main, how much speed do you want? The engineers only operate as the signal system and present conditions ahead will allow. Even if the road is perfectly clear ahead, if the ASC starts ringing, the engineer must slow down. I, neither, like slowness on the LIRR or at NYCT, but to be honest I rather ride safely then fly forth like a bat out of hell and mess around and be scattered all over the track area, or be on a train that strikes someone on the tracks, or a vehicle. I rather ride with a safe engineer or motorman than a cowboy willing to put myself, the customers and himself at risk just to keep a schedule, not to mention speed violations on LIRR, MNRR, majority of the area rail agencies, especially NYCT can get you taken out of service!!
I agree! Anyway, until the third track gets put in place along the Main Line between Queens, through Divide Interlockings, slowdowns will take place until that time. The Main Line gets very congested through Nassau Interlocking (New Hyde Park through Carle Place) at times. There can be up to 50 trains (both eastbound and westbound) in a one hour period through there.
As an LIRR engineer, I can tell you that slower speeds are probably due to the increased running times the railroad has put in place, most likely to insure its beloved ON TIME PERFORMANCE is 95% or higher.
Growing up in Laurelton, I used to count the trains as they would fly by my house and impress the neighborhood kids by telling where the train would terminate usually by the # cars, which tracks they were on and time of the day. 95% I was correct. Even then back in the mid 80's to early 90's, the LIRR would fly. Especially on the Babylon/Montauk Branch trains, would fly from Jamaica to eith Lynbrook or Rockville Centre. Now even those branch trains seem to run slower. The Far Rockaway/Long Beach branch trains would fly between Jamaica and Locust Manor; not anymore. I thinklate night they fly. But increased service might have something to do with it. Just be glad they don't put the same type of sytem that NYCTA has, or else LIRR would really be in trouble.
Frank D
I have too much time on my hands as I sit in front of this computer screen on a cold Wednsday morning, so I'd figure I throw out something on my mind:
I've thought about what future RT project I'd like to pursue at BERA, something that's doable and realistic. After I'm finished working with 6688, I might like to turn my attention to 5466. The car is long overdue for a new paint job. Needs TLC, and I believe work could be done in a timely manner. I'll learn from my experience with 6688 and can do a fantastic job on another old gal. I think I can! I think I can!
Question: The RPC's Lo-Vs are pictured here during WestFest 1998 excursion.
What period does this paint scheme represent? Would it be the as delivered scheme?
I was thinking that 5466 could be painted the same way as her sisters in NYC. Any thoughts?
-Stef
That was a much later paint job ... more typical of the genre was:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/irt2/lowv5483f.jpg
or
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/irt2/lowv5290-19771211c.jpg
Although some were also brown or copper-colored as well. The ones you have in mind also had the interior done up "merry" towards the end of their days, as seen here:
http://www.palter.org/~subway/69-xx-01/05.jpg
Although THIS is more true to history:
http://www.palter.org/~subway/69-xx-01/02.jpg
Thanks! When it comes time to do repainting, I'll consult with the Branford Curator on how to paint.
-Stef
VERY carefully. Moo. :)
What about that dark red or maroon scheme they also appeared in?
I don't think that was authentic ... wish Joe Frank would poke in here, but I think I remember a very very dark green. Joe would know the proper colors though, Lawd knows he's painted enough of them. :)
I think that was a special maroon paint job specific for the Diamond Jubilee.
--Mark
>>> The ones you have in mind also had the interior done up "merry" towards the end of their days, as seen here:
http://www.palter.org/~subway/69-xx-01/05.jpg <<<
That interior does not look like a Lo-V. Note the door placement and no place for a motorman. What car is this, a WF Lo-V?
Tom
Yep, that was a WF ... I wanted to point out the bizarre paint scheme. Most of the WF's on the 3rd avenue el got it as did SOME regular LoV's on the line. They did try to take VERY good care of those cars until they were yanked for those miserable R12's ...
A message posted on trainorders.com last Saturday alerted readers that the NJT Princeton-Princeton Jct shuttle would be double its usual length from Sunday through Sunday. So I stopped by on Monday and saw Arrow III #1310 as a single. The trainorders poster replied that the second car had crapped out and there would be a second car or a married pair on Tuesday. 1310 was still solo Tuesday morning, but I stopped in again at 1:28 PM to catch the 1:36 arrival, still single. I stuck around for the parade that I had seen from a distance on Monday.
Acela Express train #2159 blew by at 1:41, followed by AEM7 #925 at 1:45, also on track 3. Also at 1:45 NJT train #3843 came in. At 1:48 ALP44 #4414 pulled a string of Comet V's as train #3850. At 1:50 AEM7 #920 went by, also on track 3, and a minute later NAME OF LINKAEM7 #911 went by in the other direction. In the meantime, the dinky left for Princeton at 1:48.
Quite a rewarding 15 minutes, seeing a Dinky come and go, two NJT NEC trains, an Acela Express, and three AEM7's.
What do the red squares below the number plate indicate and are there any more colors/shapes and what are there meaning?
Have a nice Thanksgiving !!
I can answer about the Red Squares.
These indicate that the cars have received updated computer announcements. Cars assigned to the 5 have updated announcements, but the 2 has not received them as of yet. That is unless, you have a #5 train operating on the 2 which happens every so often. The opposite is also true.
-Stef
Thanks !!
Have a nice holiday !!
You do the same.
Regards,
Stef
And I'm still wondering if anyone has an explanation of why the 5, whose announcements were correct from the start, got the updates before the 2, which still thinks the B and D stop at Atlantic and PATH is available at Park Place.
The only thing I can come up with is the fact the No.5 Line is more likely to change it route more often then the #2 Line. Like running from Bowling Green to 149 GC, Running Local, and a few #5's go to New Lots and Utica. All of those announcements and signs are not on the older programs. Another good feature on the new programs your can program a #5 to run on the Westside and #2 will be programed to run up Lex.
They are on cars that will be sent to Moscow.
A city with a Red Square.
TWAS THE NIGHT OF THANKSGIVING, BUT I JUST COULDN'T SLEEP...
I TRIED COUNTING BACKWARDS, I TRIED COUNTING SHEEP.
THE LEFTOVERS BECKONED - THE DARK MEAT AND WHITE
BUT I FOUGHT THE TEMPTATION WITH ALL OF MY MIGHT
TOSSING AND TURNING WITH ANTICIPATION
THE THOUGHT OF A SNACK BECAME INFATUATION.
SO, I RACED TO THE KITCHEN, FLUNG OPEN THE DOOR
AND GAZED AT THE FRIDGE, FULL OF GOODIES GALORE.
I GOBBLED UP TURKEY AND BUTTERED POTATOES,
PICKLES AND CARROTS, BEANS AND TOMATOES.
I FELT MYSELF SWELLING SO PLUMP AND SO ROUND,
'TIL ALL OF A SUDDEN, I ROSE OFF THE GROUND.
I CRASHED THROUGH THE CEILING, FLOATING INTO THE SKY
WITH A MOUTHFUL OF PUDDING AND A HANDFUL OF PIE.
BUT, I MANAGED TO YELL AS I SOARED PAST THE TREES....
HAPPY EATING TO ALL - PASS THE CRANBERRIES, PLEASE.
MAY YOUR STUFFING BE TASTY, MAY YOUR TURKEY BE PLUMP.
MAY YOUR POTATOES 'N GRAVY HAVE NARY A LUMP,
MAY YOUR YAMS BE DELICIOUS, MAY YOUR PIES TAKE THE PRIZE,
MAY YOUR THANKSGIVING DINNER STAY OFF OF YOUR THIGHS.
Happy Thankgiving, my friends!
Have a safe & happy holiday and may you & yours be blessed.
Since our roost is all toms, we're having PA-TURKEY ... yum.
When I was a young turkey, just new to the coop,
My big brother Mike took me out on the stoop,
Sat me down on a splinter, and speaking real slow,
Told me that there was something that I had to know.
His look and his tone I will always remember,
When he spoke of the horrors of..... Black November.
"Come about August, now listen to me,
Each day you'll get six meals instead of just three,
And soon you'll be thick, where once you were thin,
And you'll grow a big rubbery thing 'neath your chin.
And then one morning, when you're warm in your bed,
Farmer's wife will burst in and hack off your head!
Then she'll pluck all your feathers 'til you're all bald and pink ,
And scoop out your innards right there in the sink.
And then comes the worst part," he said with voice huffing,
She'll spread wide your cheeks and pack you with stuffing."
Well, the rest of his words were too grim to repeat.
I slumped on the stoop like a winged piece of meat.
And decided right then to avoid being cooked,
I'd have to lay low and remain overlooked.
I began a new diet of nuts and granola,
Fruits, salads and juice or perhaps diet cola.
And as they ate pastries, chocolates and crepes,
I stayed in my room doing Jane Fonda tapes.
I maintained my weight at two pounds and a half,
And tried not to notice when the bigger birds laughed.
But 'twas I who was laughing (though under my breath),
As they chomped and they chewed their way closer to death.
And sure enough when Black November finally rolled around,
I was the one turkey left in the entire compound.
So now I'm a pet in the farmer's wife's lap,
And haven't a worry. I just eat and I nap.
As she held me today, while rocking and humming,
She gave me a smile and said "Christmas is coming..."
I like this one instead of the other.
Maw cynical, maw noo yawk. Nothing like a crappy attitude to make the holidays bright. :)
That first line is worth a rim shot.
I'm still waiting to hear this tune on Hot 97 here in NYC :)
--Mark
Steve B's penning the notes as I type. Alas, his Arnine is out of calibration. :)
For those of you taking the train to exotic places, unaware of the local forecast at your destination, as a public service, we present the Turkey day forecast ...
Thanksgiving Weather Forecast
Turkeys will thaw in the morning, then warm in the oven to an afternoon high near 190F. The kitchen will turn hot and humid, and if you bother the cook, be ready for a severe squall or cold shoulder.
During the late afternoon and evening, the cold front of a knife will slice through the turkey, causing an accumulation of one to two inches on plates. Mashed potatoes will drift across one side while cranberry sauce creates slippery spots on the other. Please pass the gravy.
A weight watch and indigestion warning have been issued for the entire area, with increased stuffiness around the beltway. During the evening, the turkey will diminish and taper off to leftovers, dropping to a low of 34F in the refrigerator.
Looking ahead to Friday and Saturday, high pressure to eat sandwiches will be established. Flurries of leftovers can be expected both days with a 50 percent chance of scattered soup late in the day. We expect a warming trend where soup develops. By early next week, eating pressure will be low as the only wish left will be the bone.
You just gave me the perfect message to send my Thanksgiving Greetings to all my friends and relatives!
You can thank our customers for that ... one of the folks who had a problem with our software sent me that after we got him happy. :)
Hey if you're just getting you're turkey thawed in the morning, I hope you're planning to eat around 4 or 5 pm, Aleutian Time.
That's about right. We've found that Eastern Time is absolutely the *WORST* time zone for a "global economy" and though Pacific time is a BIT better, the fastest response time for the entire planet is served by us running on New Zealand time. Europe gets their answers first thing in the morning, the US by the end of the day, and the rest of the world during business hours. New York's an awful place to be though as far as the rest of the world's clocks go.
Todd Glickman should be very worried :)
--Mark
I'm sure right now, he's very STUFFED ... but if his vacation relief announcer's a subtalker, then Unca Todd's gonna need some material for Kissmoose ... :)
Nah, Todd's covering for Craig Allen today and tomorrow.
I'd like to hear another "slip" about a day being "so clear that you can see 30 miles from the window of a slant R-40 on the Queue line :)
--Mark
I guess that's one of the things I like MOST about living upstate - ad libs on air aren't considered "unprofessional" and happen frequently. Although most folks around HERE wouldn't get the gag. :)
But one of the nice things about being in the 50-something'th market "ADI" is that you can get away with things like that on-air and not have to worry about someone hungrier than you getting your studio time. Heh.
My cousin just sent me the same mailing. She has nothing to do with TA or railfanning.
My cousin just sent me the same mailing. She has nothing to do with TA or railfanning.
Although I think it was meant as a jesture of offering all of us a Thanksgiving greeting, which was nice, so it doesn't matter if it has to do with railfanning.
Not that I'm complaining. It's that I've read it twice in the last few hours and probably will read it again before the weekend is out.
I got this one from no less than 5 people, all of who's incoming mail goes right into a "Jokes" folder in my e-mail client for perusal and/or deletion.
BURP !
Bill "Newkirk"
Tomorow evening we'll all be doing that.
I have to work :-( and BURP!!!! lol :-) Definitely means some "interesting" announcements!! "Brooklyn Boun...BBBBUURP!! J Train, Woodhaven Blvd next, please...BRRRRRAP!!!...stand clear the doors!! BURP!!"
At least customers will think it's the electronics.
I'll be sure to pack the "toikey!!" :-)
I know you are definitely from Brooklyn ;-). Once again to all the subtalkers and bustalkers have a Happy and safe Thanksgiving :-).
"I know you are definitely from Brooklyn ;-)."
Nope...I'm from da Bronx (Pelham Pkwy). Spent some time in Brooklyn, tho, in my later years. Better egg creams in da Bronx [ducking for cover!]
Hey, still a New Yorker though :-), only in New York can you say "Toikey" and other things that have make a normal word have attitude.
Amen, brudder! You can take the boy out of NY but you can't take NY out of the boy.
Dave - Stevie and I are LAMO over that one. to bad you couldnt email it to me it was great. have a good one tomorrow kathy
Since a lot of SEPTA's regional rail lines pass right next to the zoo, I think it would be nice to have a station there. That would make it a lot easier to get to the zoo from Center City. Since Philadelphia depends heavily on its commuter trains for urban transit, it would make sense to have stations in popular destinations like the zoo. Any thoughts?
Mark
Not a bad idea but hard to implement. SEPTA and the zoo have studied it before. The problem is partly platform location and partly trackage.
There was allegedly space provided for such a station when the PRR corridor line was originally built, right up there on the bridge over Girard Ave (a stone's throw from the Zoo's front gate). But, any train using it would stop right at the start (or end) of Zoo Junction, which would tie up track capacity.
Both R7 Trenton and R8 Chestnut Hill West could use such a station (I recall reading a version of one of the studies which insisted that the R5 Paoli trains would also call at this stop, not realizing that R5's are way on the other 'leg' of the Zoo triangle). R8 is already starting to cross over to the 'wrong rail' as it goes thru Zoo Jct, since it branches off the westbound outer track at North Phila. Thus, there would need to be 3 platforms (one of which would require two tracks to be moved to provide space for it) for the Zoo stop.
An alternate could be to build 2 platforms and allow only R7's to stop, which would provide rail service to the Zoo, but which would also force many rail riders to change trains since only one line would call at Zoo. (Even getting R8 to stop there would only bring two lines to Zoo, and most riders would still have to change trains to get there.)
Like everything on SEPTA, funding is the key, and it's not there yet. Even if it comes, there's still the issue of Amtrak allowing the station which could potentially clog one of its key junctions.
There is an escalator at the Boro Hall station on the 7th Ave Line that carries passengers from the lower level station to the mezzanine. The escalator is undergoing renovations, delayed several times and now scheduled to be completed in the winter of 2002-3, after nearly two years of work.
The entire original IRT line took 4 years from groundbreaking to opening day.
Pathetic.
There is an escalator at the Boro Hall station on the 7th Ave Line that carries passengers from the lower level station to the mezzanine. The escalator is undergoing renovations, delayed several times and now scheduled to be completed in the winter of 2002-3, after nearly two years of work.
Whenever I'm on one of my increasingly frequent rants about Typical New York Incompetence, I'm fond of saying how it takes a year to repair an escalator. Christ, was I ever off!
Even when the contractor does finish renovating a subway station, it's still a mess. Take Prospect Park station on the Brighton line, when there is a large rainstorm, it seeps through the canopy of the Manhattan Bound platform and produces at least three beautiful waterfalls on the platform. So when it rains outside, it POURS in an open cut station.
Prospect Park isn't finished yet, AFAIK. (The elevators aren't running yet, are they?)
Or perhaps the waterfalls are that station's artwork. Every rehabbed station has artwork.
No, the renovation of the station came first in 1994-1995, then the TA decided to relocate the B43 (formerly B47) and B48 bus terminals to the Lincoln Road side. The elevators were not put in until 2000 and now should've beeen up and running as an ADA accessible station. Funny cause massive flooding was reported at that station platform. when the rain seeps into a funnel, then draws it to a spot near the shuttle where it cascades into a waterfall. It has nothing to do with the artwork on the North mezzanine of that station.
I thought the station was being rehabbed along with the elevator installation. If there was a rehab, it's not readily apparent at platform level.
I thought that they now finished making Prospect Park ADA accessible this year. The renovation of 1994-1995 was satisfactory, the best part of the renovation was the mural on the outside of the station on Flatbush Av & EVEN THAT is starting to peel slowly.
Peeling? You should take a closer look at the ceilings at Beverley and Cortelyou Road stations, all over the platform, there are cracks, peeling paint and faults that make San Francisco look safe. Hate to see one of those blocks fall down on the station platform. And you thought Parkside Ave was so BAD with steel plates supporting the roof of the inside (south side)portion or the station
The MTA was that cheap not to tile more of the stations at Parkside Av, Beverley Rd & Cortelyou Rd the platform is already starting to become uneven slightly and the paint just keeps peeling. At 18 Av (F) on the Lawrence Av entrance/exit, there's big cracks on the ground ALREADY and it reopened not too long ago. Look at some stations on the F like Smith 9-St, the platform is uneven, loads of peeling paint & I could go on; and 7 Av, falling wall tiles & its developing more rust.
Before you criticize without knowing the full facts, please remember that rebuilding even an escalator under 24/7 train and pedestrian traffic can be far more complicated than it looks. Safety regulations today are far more stringent than 100 years ago - remember that many construction workers died building the original IRT. Better to do construction carefully than risk loss of life or serious injury.
MTA can set workers to work late night shifts and only late nights if necessary. Surely, there must be another way to get from the lower level to the mezzanine, especially since the only people that really need the escalators are the disabled without wheelchairs. If late night shifts are alloted, bustling passenger traffic will not need to be a problem to dwell on, thus making 2 years of repairing an escalator truly unreasonable. (Sort of like my computer).
How many workers died during the Contract I construction?
I'm only aware of one fatal incident involving a blasting site.
Safety regs are much more stringent today, but people still get
killed. Wasn't a construction worker killed in the Queens Blvd-
63 St. connector project?
While not sure, I think the original contractor went bankrupt. There are other delayed escalator projects such as Myrtle/Wyckoff (1 now in service.), Brighton beach among others. I think the orignial contractor was Railworks (RWKS) DBA Excel .125 and Broadway was also just completed
I also noticed the contractor for Broadway Junction is now Cab- I guess that means 4-5 more years. They just finished 14/8-=-3 years late!, WTC was late. I wonder how late Delancey/Essex will be (hey have that one too!_
I also noticed the contractor for Broadway Junction is now Cab- I guess that means 4-5 more years. They just finished 14/8-=-3 years late!, WTC was late. I wonder how late Delancey/Essex will be (hey have that one too!_
You have to wonder why NYCT gives more business to contractors who have performed poorly in the past.
Yeah, I wonder why but they mkust give a good price. I guess they have to start putting penalties in the contracts to get them moving.
I also noticed, Broadway-Myrtle's new canopy is leaking in the rain and guess what- Cab was the contractor !
You have to wonder why NYCT gives more business to contractors who have performed poorly in the past.
They are constrained to accept the lowest bidder.
The process for excluding a lowest bidder for poor past performance requires the NYCT personnel to leave footprints. Leaving footprints exposes one to the possibility of retaliation. It's safer to stay below the radar and wait for retirement.
"They are constrained to accept the lowest bidder. "
Not always. If they use the RFP (Request for Proposals) method they have more flexibility. This is how the Atlantic Avenue Reconstruction Project was awarded.
Let's keep things in perspective. In 1904 the subway was built without:
OSHA
TWU
NLRB
PERB
FLSA
ETC
It's no longer as simple as A-B-C
entirely correct as to 'alphabet soup' BUT
TWO YEARS to repair on escalator???
No that IS incompetence!
A pair of examples from California illustrate
Loma Prieta destroys the dounle decker Nimitz Freeway in West Oakland a decade later still not fully replaced.
Northridge quake takes down five freeway overpasses/bridges around LA six months later all were back in service--they worked 24/7 with bonuses for early completion. And back in SF Bay area the quake upgrade for the Bay Bridge emulating the MB has finally started (13 years and counting) with worler fatalities. Time is no safety guarantee.
And, almost as if by coincedence, when all those groups didn't exist, stuff actually got built. Go figure!
and nimbys went from lower case to NIMBY!
avid
Holy thong-panties, batman!!! Avid and I finally agree on something. That's twice this week that hell's gonna freeze over.
GONNA? Throw on that helmet and head north, bro ... Hell's been frozen over the better part of the week now. :)
>>> Hell's been frozen over the better part of the week now <<<
I can certainly sympathize with you Kevin. It's been so cold here in Southern California that I haven't had to use the car air conditioner for the past three days, relying on an open window for comfort. :-)
Tom
Heh. Actually don't mind the cold all that much, it's the humid east coast summers that really get to me. As long as we have fire technology, we're OK here. Send some of that air this way, I'll see about getting some CSX boxcars dispatched to collect it. :)
Speak Of The Devil
You left out the most important ones: NYCT and MTA
Only to the extent that the NYCT & MTA has to comply with regulations of the aforementioned.
In less than two years I have done 'right to know' 3 times! I still however can't get a decent flashlight from the TA
But give Brookfield credit for energetically marketing their plan. A ringing endorsement. This is my favorite: "It will not be enough for transit planners to say the Brookfield idea does not work." Why not? Brookfield hasn't shown how it WILL work. Isn't the burden of proof on the people proposing to waste billions of dollars on a worthless scheme?
Time for someone to write an op-ed showing not just that the Brookfield plan disrupts more riders than it helps, but that it's actually worse than the current system for LIRR riders going downtown. A colossal waste of money. Paging the RPA...
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/26/opinion/26TUE2.html
exerpts:
Under the Surface of Downtown
...
The danger is that the $4.55 billion in federal funds for downtown transportation will be pilfered for more mundane government uses, to fill holes in the local transportation budget or to finance old projects. That would be a betrayal of the understanding between New York and the federal government, and a terrible blow to the revival of Lower Manhattan. This money must be spent on making it easier for people to flow into and out of downtown.
Meanwhile, the debate over how a revived Lower Manhattan would work has been deadened by the benign neglect provided by election-year politics. But a new proposal by a private developer, John Zuccotti, ought to excite anyone who cares about the neighborhood. Mr. Zuccotti is chairman of Brookfield Properties Corporation, which owns some major buildings affected by the terrorist attack. His design consultants have produced the kind of transportation plan that we've been hoping to see from other sources — a cohesive and thoughtful program that is flexible about the sort of buildings that will ultimately be constructed, but gives enough detail to offer people an exciting vision of the possibilities. Most important, it focuses on the swiftest way to get people into, out of and around Lower Manhattan. It would provide a link to Kennedy Airport and a rail connection from Long Island that could bring workers to the downtown area.
Governor Pataki has sent Washington his transportation wish list, but the next stage of the subsurface work still seems stuck in the kinds of bureaucratic knots that only the governor can untangle. He needs to make certain, for example, that the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and New York City Transit give the Brookfield plan an unbiased review, as promised. It will not be enough for transit planners to say the Brookfield idea does not work. The M.T.A. will need to respond to the spirit of the proposal with reasonable suggestions how to give access to Kennedy Airport and to bring in Long Island commuters while simplifying the bewildering snarl of subways downtown.
Loyal downtowners have been patient. Now they deserve a reward for that patience — for Governor Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg to offer evidence that a revival of downtown is not so far down the road, and worth waiting for.
"A ringing endorsement. This is my favorite: "It will not be enough for transit planners to say the Brookfield idea does not work." "
This is NOT a ringing endorsement. It is a call for the MTA to take the idea seriously (and I'm not saying they haven't, but the Times may believe they haven't).
Here's what the idea looks like on the surface to NY Times editorial board writers:
- Better access to downtown for LIers.
- No inconvenience to anyone else.
- Expensive but provides real benefits.
What the MTA has to do is point out, with proper substantiation:
- Benefits are extremely minimal, with a quantification of person-minutes gained.
- Disastrous inconvenience to others, with a quantification of person-minutes lost.
- $ to time saved ratio for this project vs. others that are on the table, such as EAS and SAS, and a comparison to non-MTA ideas such as the third NJ tunnel.
Hopefully the MTA will also use the opportunity to look at other improvements that could help both LIers and Brookylnites, like making Rogers a flying junction to improve capacity on the 2/3/4/5. Perhaps lower Manhattan WTC money could be used for that project, which would give LIers a better ride to lower Manhattan.
Another thing the Times hasn't realized is that the plan caters to the desires of a certain subset of suburban commuters, who dislike taking the subway because they have to ride with (gasp!) those people.
Another thing the Times hasn't realized is that the plan caters to the desires of a certain subset of suburban commuters, who dislike taking the subway because they have to ride with (gasp!) those people.
Sure they realize it... because the Times caters to people who have it delivered to their door by the same doorman who will hail them a cab or call for a limo. Subway riders? Not part of their target audience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Subway riders? Not part of their target audience."
Sure they are. Lots of upper east siders read the Times and take the subway to work. So do lots of suburbanites who don't have the good fortune to work right near the train station where they come in to Manhattan.
Also, the Times editorial board is more egalitarian than its audience. They would never consciously endorse a scheme whose purpose is to allow LIers to avoid riding in the same subway car as those dreaded low-income eastern Brooklynites. They wouldn't endorse the underlying class-avoidance opinions and they'd abhor the idea that maybe for selected LIers it might actually have to do with skin color.
(Another thing the Times hasn't realized is that the plan caters to the desires of a certain subset of suburban commuters, who dislike taking the subway because they have to ride with (gasp!) those people. )
Of maybe they have realized it, and agree with it. The Times doesn't sell many papers in the outer boroughs, just in Manhattan and the suburbs. These days, the Republicans represent the bigots and the Democrats represent the snobs. This is one they can agree on.
But the plan would also hurt Manhattanites -- in particular, Central Park West commuters to Downtown, who'd lose their direct access on the C.
Don't blame the surburban commuters
Blame the real estate developers and owners in lower manhattan who are the one's who would bennifit most in increased rents.
The plan would also seriously reduce subway revenues because commuters would not have to transfer to the subway to complete their trip
Offer anyone an easyer was to work they would say yes i want it
Another thing the Times hasn't realized is that the plan caters to the desires of a certain subset of suburban commuters, who dislike taking the subway because they have to ride with (gasp!) those people.
According to former Governor Cuomo, two-thirds of LIRR passengers already ride the subway with (gasp!) "those people."
I have known city-bred, city-living people (women mostly) who are afraid to ride the subway. One was a woman who worked night shift and would ask me to drop her at her Bed-Stuy townhouse on my way out when her Corrections Officer husband couldn't pick her up.
Personally, I have walked from Atlantic Avenue to my job at Hudson and Beach numerous times rather than take the subway there. Part of it was because the walk was healthy and interesting. But the IRT there is jammed and slow. If you have a choice of the east side or west side lines (which cover similar areas in the financial district) you play roulette between the side platform and center platform.
A question noone asks is why people don't take the BMT at the same location, and much less crowded? I can't answer for them, but for myself, I can never tell when a train will come in, where it's going or when it will get near where I want to go.
I don't want to dump on you in particular, Peter, but I'm sick of this classist, racist crap.
"dislike taking the subway because they have to ride with (gasp!) those people".
Stop portraying anyone who lives in the suburbs as bigots. Why are they bigots? because they live outstide the 5 bouroughs.
Long Island was developed after WW II as a CHEAP place for GI's to buy a home instead of the expensive and crowed city
EVER heard of LEVITTOWN - the first sudivision development that used cookie cutter houses to keep costs down and provide cheap housing for the masses returning from the war.
The people who stand to gain the most are the downtown real estate owners. If you have been follwing the real estate market (check www.globest.com) you will see that brookfeild and a few other REIT's (real estate investment trusts which are comapanies that buy real estate and are listed on the stock market)
Personally I think the Brookfeild scheme is not a very good one
The RPA's study has already destroyed this scheme. I can't imagine the MTA saying anything that Zupan hasn't already. If the MTA must address every scheme that comes along, they'll never get around to 2nd Ave. and the things that their engineers should be working on. The burden is on Brookfield to tell us why the RPA's critique is wrong. Until then, case closed.
The Times' idea of great development is to put the replacement WTC buildings on top of West Street; like what would have happened to Broome St. with the Lower Manhattan Expressway. Their idea of great transit is this numbskull scheme. They're losing their credibility.
(The RPA's study has already destroyed this scheme. I can't imagine the MTA saying anything that Zupan hasn't already)
One can only hope that they'll listen to Zupan -- the RPA has its own, better ideas.
As for the rest of the articles, since when it there a problem with the "tangle of subways" Downtown? Downtown has excellent subway access. The problem with Downtown is that it has too many stations for its current economic role, while the East Side has too few. It's only hard to get to from the NY suburbs, not from the city. The big problem for Brooklyn is having to get through Downtown to get to Midtown, something Chystie St. was supposed to solve.
The big problem for Brooklyn is having to get through Downtown to get to Midtown, something Chystie St. was supposed to solve.
The F, Q, and W bypass Downtown on their way from Brooklyn to Midtown. On the other hand, from much of Queens and all of the Bronx, you have to pass through Midtown to get to Downtown.
(The F, Q, and W bypass Downtown on their way from Brooklyn to Midtown. On the other hand, from much of Queens and all of the Bronx, you have to pass through Midtown to get to Downtown.)
And the solution for that was...the Second Avenue subway and 63rd Street line. One service was supposed to branch off from 63rd Street and run right down Second Avenue. With fewer stops than the traditional local, that would have saved time compared with the ride across Midtown and THEN downtown, often with a transfer besides.
I was told that, if built, the Second Avenue would only feature a non-revenue connection from 63rd Street to Downtown. That should be changed.
The unused west side elavated could bring the LIRR as close as West St. near the site of WTC. That unused facility begs service.
avid
"The unused west side elavated could bring the LIRR as close as West St. near the site of WTC."
The ROW is no longer compelte. New buildings have been built right in the middle of the ROW.
Not to mention the lawsuits from all the property owners in and around the ROW. Hell, their is already a major push to get rid of the high line. Think of what would happen if they heard that train service would be COMING BACK. The amount of money squandered would be substantial.
I write this to wish everyone here, and all respective families, a safe, healthy and happy Thanksgiving!! I plan to enjoy most of my Thanksgiving day, but unfortunately I am one of the people who have to work that day :-( .....but hey I'll be sure to keep a few holiday cheer smiles and lightheartedness for my J line people and customers. Happy Thanksgiving to all....from Train Man!! :-) :-)
Of course I'll have a great Thanksgiving...I'll get to ride Amtrak, NJT commuter rail, and SEPTA regional rail to get to tomorrow's feast!
Mark
Hey, with Amtraks' dazzling array of colorful trains from other rail agencies, your Amtrak train might be a SEPTA, NJT, even a MARC train....possibly even MBTA!! You never know!! Keep your eyes open.
Hey, that would be cool if my Amtrak train ended up being pulled by one of MARC's new HHP-8 locomotives! Actually, I don't even know if they're in service yet, and I'm riding Amtrak in the Hudson River Valley, and I don't think that line is electrified. Oh well. I'll just keep my eyes peeled while I'm riding through Jersey on NJT.
Mark
If you use a little red food coloring on the turkey, you could have Redbird for Thanksgiving :-)
:-D lol....I think I'll keep that one in mind!! :-)
Though the Redbirds destination was the bottom of the ocean, my "redbird" destination will be the bottom of my stomach!! :-)
OUCH!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oy!
A Happy "Yom Gobble" to one and all.
Live from Stoughton, MA (trading places with Todd Glickman this weekend :)
--Mark
I'm also working on Thanksgiving working late evening into Friday Morning on the Pelham Line.
Happy Thanksgiving to ALL!!!
Yeah I got an early PM start, late finish on the J (J-305 start 1518 @PA-J, relief 0029 @ PA-J) The pay is definitely good, 9hrs 47min (all in holiday differential!!) :-)
Thanks, and you have a Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Train Man. To all the subtalkers, have a happy and safe Thanksgiving and have fun stuffing your bellies with turkey, stuffing and pie :-D!
Thanks, and you have a Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Train Man. To all the subtalkers and bustalkers, have a happy and safe Thanksgiving and have fun stuffing your bellies with turkey, stuffing, other Thanksgiving food and pie :-D!
Nathan's ought to sponsor a turkey eating contest.:)
Now there's a scary thought ... we can't tell what's in the doggies, but we won't have ANY problem figuring out what those miniature turkeys are. :)
And a happy Gobble Gobble to all... I'm off the whole weekend, except that I'll be at Branford all day Saturday helping run Santa on the Trolley... runs Saturday and Sunday through 22 December... Saturdays are an almost all SubTalk operating crew each weekend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Give my regards to everyone.
I'll be working on THE parade. A bittersweet affair this year, for us insiders. The man who has been Santa for the past 20 plus years is very ill and has been replaced.
Enjoy your holiday.
Peace,
ANDEE
yes indeed, enjoy your holiday SUBTALKERS! i will be working however, but then again anyone in MTA know how it is for us new folk. good thing i work night shift so i will be waking up in time for dinner, eating it, and then go to work. Grand Central is supposed to be open all night till friday i believe. happy holidays once again
Happy Thanksgiving everyone... I wish we had it over here. Having said that, we did get served Turkey for dinner tonight :-D
Anyway, I'm off bowling...
Happy Thanksgiving everyone... I wish we had it over here.
Why do you think we have Thanksgiving? It's because we're NOT :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be watching the parade and eating till I can't eat no more!
Thanks - Hope yours' is good as well. I'm very happy... In addition to spending time with family - I get to come home to NYC for the extended weekend and do lots of railfanning (and eat pizza). Man - I miss NYC!
Wayne
Dig that Pumpkin Pie, SubTALK!!
Let me add my holiday wishes. I hope all of you have a very festive holiday season.
Mmm, turkey...
Have a great one, guys and gals.
And Happy Thanksgiving to all, from an English subtalker (sitting at my computer at work at 10.25 a.m.....)
Fytton.
Man, you guys must be eating some damn old turkey!
-Robert King
hey just wanted to report weird things i saw yesterday
R42 on the Q. that may not sound weird to u but i never saw that
R46 F train sayin
D BRIGHTON LINE
D 6 AV EXPRESS
D to KINGS HWY
Well, I'll help "unweirdify" it for you :-) .....
The R-42s are expected to soon be showing up normally on the Q with the R-40Ms, and the set might have just been borrowed for the day from CIYD's M layups to cover possibly a regular R-40 or R-40M trainset that had been taken out of service.
The obviously improper signage on the F was simply a improperly programmed Luminator, displaying the wrong inputted code. Hey it happens!!
Worse was the time I was on the A line 2 years ago, and I did this to have a little "on-the-road" fun, I programmed the Luminator with the input code that made ALL the signs on the train display "LONG ISLAND RR"!! Now that definitely got the customers attention!! lol :-)
OH SH*T!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
when i was young i was quite the railfan/foamer,whatever. after school id take the brighton to coney,walk on the boardwalk and board at brighton. id find a car with no one in it and change the signs to read A to aqueduct racetrack. id love the expressions as some folks didnt get on.
Okay, many of us may be guilty of that. I did that also occasionally on the M line when I was a teenager and alone in a car. Well I did it more because I was interested in all the different routes, and off course, they would never return to being the M train.
It was not uncommon to see rollsigns wrong back then - anyone could change the route. I would only do the side ones, but I remember kids even changing the front/back signs by opening up that ad that used to be up there over the storm doors on the R16-27-30-32's.
>>The R-42s are expected to soon be showing up normally on the Q with the R-40Ms<<
And where will the displaced R-40 slants from the diamond Q wind up ?
Bill "Newkirk"
In the scrapper ;-)!!
Just playin, seriously it will probably be kept there to expand the fleet since the R143 is only a 212 car order & it looks like they are not following up on a option so far.
On the N, naturally.
>>>>Worse was the time I was on the A line 2 years ago, and I did this to have a little "on-the-road" fun, I programmed the Luminator with the input code that made ALL the signs on the train display "LONG ISLAND RR"!! Now that definitely got the customers attention!! lol :-)<<<
BAD BAD BAD BOY!
>>"R42 on the Q. that may not sound weird to u but i never saw that"<<
Actually, the sighting of a R42 on the Q is not weird, they are making their way to CI.
>>"R46 F train sayin
D BRIGHTON LINE
D 6 AV EXPRESS
D to KINGS HWY"<<
Whoa, now that's just odd! Must of punched in the wrong code. Recently, I rode a R32 F with R train rollsigns; and Friday I saw 2 R38's mixed with R32's on the C. Also a while back, around last year I rode a R40 slant on the Q and it had the blue K with the Q destinations on the inside [someone might have been playing with the curtain signs].
I still think the bizarre Fictional lines on the IRT #7 roll sign take the cake though :/ come on, #8 to chamber st.??? ditto with the #11, and #12 lines???
I boarded a train at Metropolitan Avenue today. According to one of the signs in the lead car, it was a W from Essex Street to Coney Island.
I boarded a train at Metropolitan Avenue today. According to one of the signs in the lead car, it was a W from Essex Street to Coney Island.
And I took a photo of it. Here it is: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/R-40M/PDRM1060
---BMdoobieW
http://www.railfanwindow.com
This is not the first time that what I've saw in W
Past few month ago, I have seen R46 W, R32 W.
Cool. Essex Street - I wonder what that is in the rollsigns for. Definitely Metropolitan - I recognize the big KMart building in the backround.
Barring a railfan with one of the changing keys, I'm sure there is a story behind how that rollsign got like that. Since that is the M line, not one of the signs are correct! And why would any line have Essex as a destination? PRetty cool.
Oh, BTW, I forgot to mention. I like the "official" SubTalk mixing with the unofficial "SubTalk" in that photo.
Essex was the northern terminal for the Nassau Street Shuttle when the WillyB was closed.
J service was supposed to be split at Essex the past two weekends, although the GO wasn't actually running this Sunday.
And why would any line have Essex as a destination?
Perhaps to put trolleys back on the Willy B? ;-)
Barring a railfan with one of the changing keys
I don't think you need one of the special keys to change the rollsigns.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Now there's something you don't see everyday.It looks cool though,nice pic.
Either some vandal has a sign changer or he/she put some kind of device into the slot which fit well enough to change the sign readings. It happens quite often.
What are they doing to the platforms at the Howard Beach A station? It looks like they're adding express tracks.
Station reconstruction to accommodate the transfer to Airtrain.
I'm sure this has to do with it originally being LIRR, but why the four tracks, and which do they/did they/will they use?
>>I'm sure this has to do with it originally being LIRR, but why the four tracks, and which do they/did they/will they use?<<
I think you just answered your own question. The four tracks were inherited from the LIRR. They were used lightly over the years. The (CC)'s used to lay up there at Howard Beach before they installed that relay track at Broad Channel. I'm not sure how the center express tracks figured in with the Aquaduct Specials.
Bill "Newkirk"
I also remember the JFK Expresses laying up on the "express" tracks.
I think the line from Atlantic Ave. to Howard Beach (actually Hamilton Beach, which was the next station after Howard beach and Ramblersville) was always 4-tracked - at least from whenever it was connected with the Atlantic Ave. line (1880's?). But, remember, at one time the line to the Rockaways was one of the busiest lines during the summer season, with both LIRR and BRT trains (maybe even some trolleys) using it. There used to be a loop track at Beach 116th street where the BRT Trains (coming off the Chestnut St. connection) would turn around.
Here's a pre-1930 track map (164k)of the Ozone Park area (from the Bob Emery collection.)
MAP
Actually, they aren't. Someone told me that its a renovation to make it look more modern in anticipation of the new AirTrain, the $2 billion waste. anyway, Manhattan boun trains run on the express track until Aqueduct since the wooden platform is covering the local track.
There are stairways being built from the side platforms at HB to the AirTrain terminal. While they are being worked on, temporary platforms were built fpr the costomers without getting them in the contracter's way. But there are NO express tracks being installed.
Were the original express tracks removed or just built over? Its been awhile since I've been there.
Avid
They're still there. The temporary wooden SB platform is above the SB express track, so SB trains open on the left. The temporary wooden NB platform is above the NB local track, so NB trains shift to the express track through Howard Beach.
This month's Railpace has a small item about another PCC trip on the norther rails of Philly. This one will be January 25th for $35. They intend to run on route 15 & 23. I'm not associated with this event, so for further information please contact Wilmington Chapter of NRHS, c/o Steve Barry, 117 High Street, Newton, NJ 07860
At the PTA meeting of my daughter's schol last night, we were informed that "there will be a Transit strike starting Dec 16. Classes will start two hours later than normal, but dismissal will be unchanged."
Did I miss something, or is the Department of Education jumping the gun a little?
"we were informed that "there will be a Transit strike starting Dec 16."
Sounds like this particular employee of the Education Dept. doesn't know the proper use of the subjunctive mood.
Someone called Ms. Cleo?
>>Someone called Ms. Cleo?<<
RAhway state 4-3500 or SIng sing 7-4900
or contact her parole officer !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought she works in the crew office.
Nah, she's too busy these days as Budget Director. Too busy stuffing de ganga in de chicken. :)
When riding from Rector to Chambers, or the other way, is there some sign of Cortlandt or is it just black wall all the way?
Yes you can, there's columns and platform edges and it is dimly lit. You can see it in both directions.
Dave,
Are these remnants of the old station or was this "shell" built when the tunnel was rebuilt in "The Pit"?
Mark
"Are these remnants of the old station or was this "shell" built when the tunnel was rebuilt in "The Pit"?"
Hard to think there could be many remnants of the old station left. During reconstruction, there were occasional pictures in the papers. There wasn't much left at higher than track level. They poured concrete and then installed giant rectangular steel frames (maybe 24' wide and 16' high), and then walled and roofed those in.
It's all new.
The staircase on the North end of the NB plat. is still there.
Herbert George wrote a book titled, "change at ozone park" in 1993, is there a way I can still obtain a copy? I can't seem to find it anywhere? thanks!
It is an 80 page soft cover book with lots of pictures (mostly B/W but a few color). I've seen it occasionally at train shows here in PA. I don't think it is an expensive book...maybe about $15.00.
The publisher was
R A E Publishing, Inc.
P. O. Box 114
Flanders, NJ 07836
You might try one of the railroad book dealers like Rail'n'Shafts or Ron's Books!
I got mine at the Red Caboose in Manhattan about 2 years ago. I think Willis Hobbies in Mineola has it, too.
You can also check out the Transit Museum gift shop in Grand Central. I'm not sure they still carry it or if it's out of print.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was there last week. I did not see the book at the NYTM store.
--Mark
Yeah, the TA Museum has been slow with re-stocking their shelves (even with the holidays upon us). The reason for this is that they are awaiting a return of their main facilities. Once their relocation is complete (this coming Spring) I am sure you will see a re-stocking of books/maps/postcards, etc.
they do !!!!!!
call them
Steve
FDNY
I bought my copy a couple pf years ago at the Court Street Museum. So it probably is at Grand Central.
What about Penn Books? Do they still carry rail books? I think that's where I bought my copy (several years ago, admittedly). It's located on the LIRR level of Penn Station.
I got mine at the Penn Books bookstore at Penn Station.
Keep looking. It pops up in weird places now and then.
ok quick quesion, if the LIRR ran catenary out to Babylon, which I already know would not happen. but if they did, do you think they would exten Amtrak service out to Babylon? With just two additional stops from Penn Station and Babylon.
Frank D
They could extend to Babylon right now, by switching to dual power at Penn, or to straight diesel in Sunnyside, but even assuming they would want to do this (a through service to Montauk in the summer is more likely) they have to deal with crewing and union issues.
Although Montauk seems like the more likely choice, I remember about 10 years ago or so they were talking about an Amtrack train to Port Jefferson. I don't know why PJ was chosen (maybe because of the ferries there?), or what became of the idea. Of course it would have been with dual modes like the FL9's which were Amtrak's dual modes at the time.
LIRR is not a part of Amtrak...
That is that it is not a party to the agreements that created AMTK,
ie. it was not a freight railroad seeking to divest itself of its passenger operations. As such it is one of the only railroads that can operate passenger trains without the permission of AMTK. (This is why other lines run "business trains" when they want to haul people around for the fun of it.
Other railroads, having agreed to the provisions allowing them to scrap passenger service are compelled to carry AMTK trains. Not so the LIRR! AMTK cannot require LIRR to carry its traffic.
This is the whole truth, I swear it on the head of my Teddy Bear!
If anybody else has something else to say on this subject don't believe them!
||X,
Elias
Amtrak can't require the LIRR to carry its traffic but perhaps a through service with interchanged cars, such as NH/PRR did on The Senator and The Patriot, would be feasible.
Amtrak can't require the LIRR to carry its traffic but perhaps a through service with interchanged cars, such as NH/PRR did on The Senator and The Patriot, would be feasible.
Through from Where????
Elias
Anywhere Amtrak comes in from via Penn out to the Island.
Unfortunately from Baltimore and north, the overpasses above the tracks of the former Penn RR are not high enough to permit auto carriers.
If they could , the auto train from anywhere in the northeast to anywhere in the US would help break the yoke of Saudi fanatical domination of the US economic and political aimes.
SUVs are huge, unsafe, single passenger gas eaters that fund those people that have killed and will kill Americans. The first and second positions in US government come from oil interest back rounds. Do not expect change soon. Except in the price of fuel. It will go up!
avid
Who said anything about auto carriers? Was it in the original post? I was referring to people coming without their cars.
Which subway car(rolling stock) was the worst ever built?
the r142.
(LOL)
The R16 was probably the worst post-WW II rolling stock in terms of maintenance problems and poor mean distance between failures. Its door motors were rebuilt resulting in a bulge in the inside wall unlike other NYCTA equipment.
And then there was that very interesting new paint scheme that the MTA was trying out on them. :)
Not that shabby. ;)
The graffiti sure brightened that car, its better than that hideous blue/silver scheme [although on some models it actually looked pretty attractive]. Man thats some good graffiti artists there.
I rememeber that well. Many times it was so dark in the cars because the windows were graffitied over. You cou;ld not tell where you were, and on the elevated lines, they usually shut the lights out while outside, so it made it even darker.
BTW, I forgot to notice, they don't do that anymore do they? DO they still shut the lights out when the train is outside? For the life of me I can't remember if I've seen that in years, although I really haven't really looked for it. I feel stupid asking, but I really haven't noticed it recently.
Yes, but they usually do that in days that have long hours of sunlight and/or mostly sunny days on lines that go outdoors but I see it frequently on the F. Look at the days of deferred maintenance, you were lucky if the train car had ALL or any of its lights in working order, in which lights were constantly burnt out and the graffiti and hard of hearing/lack of announcements.
Even Redbirds [and possibly other cars and NO, the 7 going over the gap in the tunnel doesn't count] a few years ago or even now have car(s) that get completely blackened [happened 2 years ago riding a Redbird 2 from 96 St to Brooklyn].
On the Brighton Line heading from Brooklyn toward Manhattan, the lights used to be turned on as the train went down the hill between Avenue H and Newkirk Avenue. There were times when the C/R (if that's who controlled the lights) forgot, and the train would be completely dark as it went through the several underpasses between Newkirk Ave and Prospect Park. They usually remembered before Prospect Park, but I recall once being in the dark all the way until 7th Avenue!
I remember a sign on that incline reminding the T/O to turn on the lights.
The conductor would notice that the lights were out pretty quickly.
That's a PRETTY 16 there ... like the blonde on the end of the car too. Whoops, now I've honked off people I'll bet ...
LMAO!
Didn't even see that when I posted, just was lost in the colors!
Good eyes
SOME (damned little) of it was truly ART ... that car is one that's borderline "art." Looked *SO* much better than that "Holy Ronan Empire War Between the States" corporate grafitti ...
I didn't notice that either until after attention was drawn to it and I looked at it the second time!
Interesting paint job but that car is an R27/30.
Judging from the windows on the side door leaves, it's an R-16. The side door windows on the R-27/30s were shorter.
Not only that, if you look at the roof, the vents on the R16s (to the left of graffitied car) are larger than the R27/30.
Did the 6300s have the same vents as the 6400s?
Yes.
That bulge by the door seats used to give me a pain in the neck. You could never get comfortable.
When did those cars go out of service?
The R16's were gone with the arrival of R68's in 1986 or early 1987.
They should have been out of service in 1979, but because of the R-46 Rockwell truck fiasco, they ended up coming out of mothballs for another 7 years. They replaced the cars that were supposed to be their replacements!
--Mark
They replaced the cars that were supposed to be their replacements!
And they were supposed to be the worst on the property!?
Ha!
Since tomorrow is Thanksgiving (and I want to wish all my Subtalk friends a very happy one to you and yours), I thought we should accentuate the positive and minimize the negative. So let's turn this topic around. What do you think is the best subway car ever made. I'll let you happy campers give your opinions before I give mine. Blast away.
Ok Fred, lets flip this topic then.
I say the best car would be the R33/R36 WF cars, they're very attractive[the bluebird scheme was better of course on these cars], very dependable, still got the speed, very good MDBF and they are cars of TRUE quality.
My favorite has to be the R-32s
(After the arnines, of course)
Elias
I say the best car would be the R33/R36 WF cars, they're very attractive[the bluebird scheme was better of course on these cars], very dependable, still got the speed, very good MDBF and they are cars of TRUE quality.
Flatbush: Its nice to appreciate a man who know a quality product when he sees it. The R-33's and R-36's are my favorites too although I tend to favor the original tartar red paint scheme.
Enjoy the turkey.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Oh, you're talking about the mainline R33/R36, they were attractive too and the bright color was a real eye-catcher, compared to the arrival of the R21/R22 and other car classes. Thanks for the compliment, I look at all aspects in a train car [MDBF, attractiveness, quality, etc].
You enjoy the turkey as well.
The BEST subway car? It's a tossup between the IRT redbird beasts of the R33 mainline and the GE/Budd R32 IND/BMT cars. Personally, I'd give the nod to the R32 because of good speed, decent MDBF and after 39 years in service, they STILL look great. The R33's may have better speed and MDBF but most of the shells on the top of the cars are rusted anyway, and most of the fleet are being "reefed". Expect the R32 cars to exceed 40 years as they won't be replaced until the R160's are introduced in 2005.
Ok here are my top 5 favorites for each division
IND/BMT
R32[wish the original front could have been kept]
R38
R46[with the blue stripe]
R10
R42
I like other models as well but this is my top 5.
IRT
R36 WF
R62
R62A
R142[Kawasaki]
R33
The R32's are extremely dependable, strong, speedy that is just the perfect car for the subway, if it was never built, I don't know how the system would be. I predict the R32 outlives the R38 and the R40 slants once the R160 arrives but I say the R160 will not replace some R32 cars, the R40M and R42 right away in 2005/2006.
The R30 during the GOH was very attractive but died too early[1993], IMO since the TA assumed that the R110B's would be successful [they were MISERABLE] and could have prevented a B Division car shortage in the first place.
If the R36 WF [or all the Redbirds] was stainless steel, I know for a fact that they wouldn't have been reefed/scrapped as quickly. The R36 is also very dependable, good MDBF & speedy but as you said, the car bodies are rusting and sadly, its time for them to go, another quality model will be fade into history :-(. Its good the 142's were delayed b/c if the R142's would have came when they were supposed to starting in 1997, all or almost all the Redbirds would have been gone already so Subtalkers, stock up on those pics before its too late!
The R30 during the GOH was very attractive but died too early[1993], IMO since the TA assumed that the R110B's would be successful [they were MISERABLE] and could have prevented a B Division car shortage in the first place.
Where did you come up with this?
The R-110A and R-110B orders were for one train each, to test some of the features being considered for the R-142(A) and R-143 orders. They served their purpose. There was never any plan to order more cars in either order.
In the early 90's, ridership was much lower than it is now. The R-30's were scrapped because they weren't air conditioned and they were no longer needed. Little did the TA know that they'd come in handy a few years down the road.
Ok, I drifted off topic a little bit but I knew that the R110 A & B was just a test for future orders but the MTA didn't expect the 110B's to be so bad. Didn't mean to get off topic.
So bad? How were they bad? How would a single train have compensated for the R-30 retirement?
I know ONE TRAIN can't compensate for replacing a whole fleet, I must of used the wrong choice of words. I think they didn't expect the train to breakdown so much, maybe that delayed the future order for the B Division [well the R160's are coming in a few years].
I don't think the train broke down any more than was planned. On the contrary, I'm sure the TA planned that the test trains would have problems and that, once the tests were complete, it might not be worth fixing them. The R-143 order was made years ago; a subway car can't be designed and built overnight!
They weren't bad. They were successful. They were never intended to be reliable, but to show how to make the new technology reliable in future car purchases.
Ok, I drifted off topic a little bit but I knew that the R110 A & B was just a test for future orders but the MTA didn't expect the 110B's to be so bad. Didn't mean to get off topic.
Off topic? Isn't this what the thread is about (our opinions about what are the best and worst cars)? You are right on topic of the thread.
Anyway, just to add a bit, to the reasons already given, the reason the R110's are not used is not because they are/were so bad. I don't think they were terribly unreliable, especially for a test train, which is all they were meant to be anyway. The reaso is that the R110's are only one train set (well two different types of one train set each). The problem with them would be even routine maintenance. It would be expensive to keep maintenance parts for only one train.
Personally, I find the R110B to be one of the most attractive cars the system has seen. I do like it better than the R143's. One reason may because of the roll signs on the front vs. the digital letter on the front.
In addition to add to the discussion about the R30’s. It is correct that the R27-30’s were scrapped because they were not air conditioned, and weren’t really needed at the time. Also, even if they were needed, adding AC to them would have made them too heavy to be used on the els.
Look at how they cannibalized 3 of the 9 cars for the R110B, now thats bad. The 110B was a attractive car but I think it would have been a little better if it were 60' instead of 67' but hey it was just a experiment so I ain't stressing that.
Look at how they cannibalized 3 of the 9 cars for the R110B, now thats bad.
True, but can't that also be because they are unique cars, and there is no other way to get parts unless they are custom made, just for those cars?
For example, take the R68's. I believe they are fairly reliable (at least I hardly ever hear anyone complaining about them). But for arguments sake, let's say they are reliable. Okay, now, forget that there are many R68's. Say there are only 8 in the entire system. If some expensive part needs relpacing on one of those 8 R68's, you have a choice of either ordering a specific, custom made part to replace it, or you begin canibilizing one of the others. It doesn't necessarily mean that your 8 R68's are unreliable, just because you chose the cheaper way out of the situation. That is what they chose with the R110's.
Now get back to the full fleet of R68's. Now with a full fleet of R68's, that same part may need replacing. When you have a full fleet of certain cars, they would be more willing to stockpile parts for the R68's, because it's no longer a custom part, it becomes a standard part, that you would keep extras of, just in case another one will need it.
What amazes me about the R-110B is the fact that the TA still uses it in their promotional material and on their website. Even though it is not presently in service and is only one train.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I have questioned that myself, it doesn't make sense. Although it is probably one of the most attractive cars that has ridden on the subway.
Agreed, it is a damn good looking peace of equipment.
Peace,
ANDEE
Agreed, it is a damn good looking piece of equipment.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why, Thank you......Uhm, oh I'm sorry, you were talking about the R110's :)
Its not even 1 train now, it is only 6 cars but hardly sees service. Last time I saw it was when it was running as a 6 car train 2 years ago on the C, the automatic announcements didn't work, it looked out of place.
R32...HANDS DOWN!!!!!
The R32 is one of my favorites. What keeps it from being #1 is that its seating is sparse compared to the older BMT subway car models. The Standard and Type D have comfortable and ample seating.
The R32 is great and I hope that it runs forever!
I think the best two subway cars that were built were the BMT Standards and the BMT Triplexs. IF I were to design a subway car I would certainly base it on the BMT Standard and an articulated car based on the BMT Triplex.
#3 West End Jeff
Those cars were beauties. I think, better on the inside, but great on the outside too.
I like the outside look of the R11 and R32.
I doubt if any car anywhere could match the BMT Bluebirds (Compartment cars) built by Clark. With their picture windows, mohair seats, mirrors between the compartments, great railfan seat, PCC lights, attractive two-tone blue and ivory outside paint scheme, and overall PCC technology, it was a shame most of the order was canceled by the City. It's also a shame that not one was preserved.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
I agree with you that the BMT Bluebirds were unique and it is a shame that none of them were preserved. Those cars were ahead of their time. I never saw one since I'm just 39 1/2 years old. I've seen pictures though and I have read about them, but I'll never see one or touch one in real life. Too bad they haven't built a replica of the BMT Bluebirds.
#3 West End Jeff
The O gauge St. Petersburg traction model of the Bluebird is nice (but pricey) and looks very much like the Bluebirds, though there are a few negatives--interior floor color (should be red rubber-like tile) and the mirrored panels are missing. The model is not motorized, but a motor and a different set of third-rail shoes was available at the time the car came out. I didn't get the motor--an extra $130, plus $30 for the shoes, on top of the $600 for the car didn't seem worth it to me.
The motor was two-rail DC only; I'd guess other underfloor PCC trucks with motors would work or look as good.
The tape of "Streamlining Chicago" has some film of the Bluebirds operating on the Brighton Line.
The Zephyr was a handsome car, too, but I was never inside it. It had leather seats like the Green Hornet, I believe. Its last revenue operation was on the Franklin Shuttle in the early 1950s, but somehow I missed it then. In the mid-1950s, it was stored for some time on the center track of the Fulton Street L east of Atlantic Avenue station in East New York, with a "Park Row" destination sign on the front.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There is one piece of interesting trivia about the "Green Hornet". The "Green Hornet" was the first train that used chimes to warn of closing doors. The chimes weren't used again until the R-44 were introduced in 1972.
#3 West End Jeff
1. BMT standard
2. Type D-Triplex
3. R32-Original (Not rehab)
4, R-1
5. Low V
My turn finally.
Number one is the Triplex. Is anybody out there surprised?
Number two is the R-32. A real good looking car.
Number three is the R-1--something impressive about it but I can't put my finger on why.
Number four is the R-11. I never rode one but I liked its look and it did run on the Sea Beach for a short time in 1970 carrying the #4 designation.
It's amazing you call the R32 the second worst subway car but about 6 to 7 trains are running on your favorite line. By the way, these cars will have one of the longest tenures in NYC subway history when they are being retired in 2005. (Funny how they are called the "Brightliners" and not the "Sea BeachLiners", guess thats why they named them after the best and most scenic line in Brooklyn)
Kool-D, go back a few posts, Fred decided to change it around to the best subway car ever built for the sake of the holiday and that is his TOP 5, not the worst 5.
Number three is the R-1--something impressive about it but I can't put my finger on why.
Did they have "CITY OF NEW YORK" in gold leaf on the sides? If so, could that be the "something impressive...?
Yes, the R-1s had "City of New York" on their sides.
I'll tell you what was impressive about them: the marvelous symphony of sounds they emitted. Moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses - the list goes on and on. Throw in the throbbing compressors and trademark magnet valve sounds (well, quasi-trademark; the Triplexes made the same sound), and you get the whole picture. They were living, breathing hulks.
Yes [so did the R4, R6, R7 and R9] but over the years due to lack of cleaning, the gold letters eventually faded away and/or the grime covered that and most of the car.
The lettering got covered by grime. It reappeared when car washers were installed in the yards.
And then the leaks started!
So if it weren't for the shitty trucks, damn the R10 would of outlived them by 10 years WOW, although the 10's would outlive them ANYWAY! So initally, they were to replace R1's-R9's and the R16 but of course the trucks, and the MDBF kept these cars in there. Didn't matter, the 16's were allowed to rot anyway from graffiti, a bloated MDBF and placing oversized door motors. I heard the truck situation got so bad that the R46's were limited to weekdays at one point while they ordered standard trucks and caused Rockwell to go bankrupt[I believe the TA sued them and won, putting them out of business a short time later].
uh, no - 100 R-16s at a cost of $200,000 were put back into service to compensate for the loss of R-46s taken out of service because of the faulty trucks. The R-10 had nothing to do with it. R-16s had severe controller problems, besides the door motor difficulties.
--Mark
Put it like this, the R16's were garbage, period! I was surprised that ACF built such a faulty model to begin with[since they built other successful models], not being able to run in bad weather, what the hell is that?! And the oversized door motors looked like library drop boxes.
Put it like this, the R16's were garbage, period! I was surprised that ACF built such a faulty model to begin with[since they built other successful models], not being able to run in bad weather, what the hell is that?!
Also keep in mind that they were run in a period of very low maintenance. Everything in the system was neglected. That was also part of the problem of the R16's. (although they seemed to take the low maintenance performed on them much worse than many of the other cars of the time).
And the oversized door motors looked like library drop boxes.
IINM, they weren't designed with those dumb slanted door motor covers. (Those slanted panels were one of the many reasons I really disliked the R16's at the time). I have seen photos of them without those dumb slants, but forgot where. I also don't know why they were all retrofitted with the bigger door motors - maybe there was a flaw with the originals? Of course the condition of the R16 in the photo below is FAR from the condition I remember them in!
Looks good there but throw in the graffiti and then take out half [or more] of the lights and you got the cars we once saw in New York. The original door motors were constant failures, it didn't open 1 pair sometimes a WHOLE car didn't open with the original motors so the oversized ones came into place.
Looks good there but throw in the graffiti and then take out half [or more] of the lights and you got the cars we once saw in New York.
Ain't that the truth! I sort of made my peace with them, and actually miss them. But I really hated those rolling disasters when they were around!
IIRC the R-16s had those new door engines installed in 1976. Their original door engines were under the seats and the door pockets were nice and straight. I can vaguely remember straight pockets when I rode on them for the first time on Sept. 23, 1967. When I rode on them again 19 years later, the first thing I noticed was the slanted door pockets. I thought, they weren't like that before.
And no, that wasn't a misprint. I did indeed ride on the R-16s a total of two times, 19 years apart.
Whew!! Now that's a LONG gap btw riding a particular model, in this case the R16. That is the worst car NYCT ever purchased how does a train get mothballed after 20-25 years, just bad.
I think it was a set of circumstances that contributed to the long time span between rides on the R-16s. For one thing, I didn't ride on any routes they were assigned to (I never took a single EE train), and there were a few periods where I didn't ride on the subway at all (Dec. 1973 to July 1976 and Sept. 1980 to Oct. 1984).
A better question would be, when were they finally put out of their misery?
Yeah I know anyway, for those of you who don't know, they were mothballed by the R46's in the 70's but due to constant breakdowns, they had to come back & serve another 7-10 years on the ralis, looking miserable and worn out until the R68's put the nail in the coffin for them.
Ah, yes - #6352! That was some piece of work. Appeared to be a community effort. I saw that one on the road and made note of it in Book #4, the last one to have an R16 page.
wayne
Gee, it took until the second post....
The verdict is not in on the R-142 as far as I'm concerned because it's still too new to make a judgement call, but talking about 'vintage' equipment, surely the R-10s and R-16s come to mind. And although I liked the innovative and unique look of Budd's R-11/34 cars, mechanically, they were considered lemons.
Definately the R-11. Those circular door windows give the whole thing an impression of prison cars to me. And no, I have never been to prison.
Round windows remind you of prison? I could see if the cars had bars on the windows....that certainly have a prison feel to it...but porthole windows????
I could see someone getting feelings of seasickness with the porthole windows, though....:)
Steve B still thinks that he saw those round windows on some of the R-10's.
Not the porthole storm door windows, but the double circular windows on the side door leaves. I know I saw them! It was an A train, too. Damn I wish I'd taken down the car numbers.
Bar car? Did somebody say bar car? Actually, if bars are your thing, pick the revenue collector. :)
The R-11 has square storm door windows. The R34 had circular storm door windows
Why did they replace the original rectangular railfan window with the circular ones on the rebuild? And were the doors left-overs from the R-15s or 16s?
I don't think he was talking about the storm door windows. I think he was talking about the 4 circular windows on the passenger doors.
But the R11 looked good on the outside.
In your dreams, maybe...
.......R- 142 ...................BIG ........LOL.....
(I can see this will probably turn into a "dis the R16's thread".) Probably the R16's. They were probably the worst in fairly recent history. I don't know if that was because they were so bad, or because they were so neglected, considering when they were running.
i would say the R142&R142a,cause of all the problems they have,the R143 are way better.
til next time
The Kawasaki R142A's had a few teething troubles at the beginning and got better fast. It was the Bombardier R142 that had most of the troubles. But at least they too seem to be doing better now.
I am going to take a stab at it, the R-110A are the worst, beautiful looking, but you dont see anywhere not. Should it be joining the Redbirds.....maybe.
I don't know if the R110s are reliably bad. The reason you don't see them is because they are orphans, causing them to be high maintenance, because special parts would be needed for just two trains.
Definitely the R16's, that's the most neglected car class of all time, IMO, especialy since it was a small fleet[200 cars]. And in the deferred maintenance days, forget it plus they were mothballed and were heading for scrap after 15-20 years but due to constant breakdowns, it hung in there until 1986. The R12/R14 was type shitty also but not as bad as the 16's.
The cars with the heaviest graffiti [although all car classes got hit pretty bad] were the R10, R16, R21/R22, R27/R30, R38 and R40 slants[whoo they GOT HIT with graffiti!] and if they weren't hit by as much graffiti, breakdowns were just widespread and it particularly plagued the R44 and R46 [R16's had a horrible MDBF as well].
Now if you want the worst paint scheme, the all white livery was by far the dumbest thing they did, it backfired in their faces. Too bad the R40M, R42, R44 and R46 didn't keep the blue stripe, they were much more attracrive with it and it could hide some of the rust as well ;-).
The cars with the heaviest graffiti [although all car classes got hit pretty bad] were the R10, R16, R21/R22, R27/R30, R38 and R40 slants
Everything at the time had it, the R42's also. Even the R44-46's had it to a lesser extent.
As for the white. Yes, that was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I have no idea what they were thinking.
I think it was along the lines of "Let's paint the cars white so we can get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied." Huh? What were they smoking?
The best murals I've ever seen on Slants were on #4412-4413 (Flint) and #4418-4419 (Pentagram). Entire sides, and on #4419 the front sign window was painted over with a mural of a wizard, complete with rod, staff, beard and moon & stars hat!
This was circa late '73
wayne
I saw that one ... definitely "art."
The white scheme was the first with the paint that could be easiest to wash of the graffiti. At least that was the theory. I do miss the silver/blue scheme which was overlayed with literally hundreds of Krylon cans of colors. It was the environment that enabled this to happen I could do without.
No, the worst paint scheme EVER was the MTA silver / blue stripe on an R-1/9. Nauseating!
--Mark
agreed
Truly madness on an unprecedented scale. I also remember seeing an R10 with an R42 nose on it ... now THAT was strange ...
This one? (If there was more than one we might be in trouble)
Look ma, no titties!
Heh. FIGURES someone took a picture of it. Weird, no? :)
No door triggers???
Let ya in on a little secret ... the caps and triggers operated electrical SWITCHES, so cheating was possible. I think they only did that treatment to the one end of the car though.
It was an experiment and nothing more came of it. The car was subsequently scrapped.
Which one are you guys talking about, 3192[R10] w/the R42 front, the experiment of 6429[R16] in what I call a "silver suit" or both? They were both weird and I'm glad it didn't come into place.
did that poor frankenstein monster ever run in the sytem?????
Now that was bizarre! Hey, what about the R10 with the circular railfan window, strange also...
Yeah, before they formalized "Frankentrain" with the R110's, you never knew what might roll down the rails or be spotted in the car shops. There were some real wiseguys down at Coney, including one guy who grafted a Volkswagen nose onto the front of a slant 40 about to undergo modifications to celebrate an April first years ago ...
Then there was the time when they tried to see if they could bring back the BMT convertibles as a 75 foot IND car using R1 #165 ... lots of open air seating for the geese to enjoy the sea breeze ...
Yea, I'm sure the pigeons had a good time with that. What the hell happened to that car????? It looks like it melted when they attempted to weld the pieces together and it looks off white, that's a bizarre experiment.
It's what happened when we spotted Arnines in the war between the states color scheme (fetchez la blowtorch) ... actually, that Frankentrain was built to check tunnel clearances all over the system in anticipation of the 75 footer purchases. Better to scrape up a Frankentrain, and the sharp metal edges of the unyielding Arnine actually managed to shave some tunnels to size. :)
Didn't the whiskers of the Tunnel Clearance Test Train catch in the tube north of Cortlandt on the N/R/W? I shudder to think of an R46 going through there before they shaved it! OUCH!!!
wayne
I believe it also took out some conduit, shaved some catwalks and scraped some new tunnel. At a time when the TA was strapped for cash, it made for a cost effective TBM. :)
The original specification for the R-62 was for it to be a 64-foot, possible articulated, car! $400,000 was spent on its design in the mid-1970s. Could you imagine?!?
--Mark
Probably woulda been neat. Probably also would have been a maintenance nightmare. Yeah, the 70's "liberal era" (which ENDED then also) created many a Frankentrain just to show the wisenheimers the RESULTS of "what if?" Or maybe the drugs were just better then. :)
Think that's weird/bizarre, look at the 64 foot IRT experiment using R22's in the 1970's, which of course FAILED! Selkirk, that pic is just hideous & out of this world. How would the birds enjoy something as horrid as that, even rats would have been scared ;-).
Musta been after I split in 1975, that's a sight I'm THANKFUL I never saw. :)
No, the worst paint scheme EVER was the MTA silver / blue stripe on an R-1/9. Nauseating
Mark: So true. While the Silver and Blue was tolerable on certain of the later R Types it was possitively ugly on the R-1/9's.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Could you IMAGINE what would have happened had Ronan painted the D types like that? :)
Even WORSE than the blue/silver on the R-7a and R-9 was the PUTRID PISTACHIO GREEN they slathered on the interior, and the absolute sacrilege of painting the fans white! BOOOO!!!! HISSSSSS!!! So absolutely hideous, it made my head spin and my stomach curl.
wayne
I always liked the Arnines in their native khakis ... a fine wartime car. I wonder what Marines would do if someone tried to paint them silver, gray and fuschia? Just as wrong ... Semper Foo.
And don't forget the fiberglass seats!!!
Eeeewwwwwww!!!
Ok, while I agree that the blue/silver scheme on the 1-9's, what if the R1-9 had the all white livery, now that would be nauseating and so horrific it would look like a ghost.
Well, let's be fair. Though the R1-9 were gorgeous when delivered (I'm going by the old photos), they aged miserably. Look at some photos of them from the 1960's and 1970's. Yech! No paint job could save the looks of those rustmonsters.
All in all I really like the old MTA corporate blue stripe look.
:-) Andrew
We gotta get you to Branford next year ... get to see one brought back from the brink ...
Yeah, 1689 looks like a gem now.
Luckily I never saw one in revenue service.
Does anybody here remember the 75-foot mural that some miscreant named "Killer I" emblazoned on the left side of R44 #124 (#5268)? Wouldn't win a beauty contest but was certainly a BOLD statement. The entire side of the R44 was covered, sill to roof line; every window, every door, everything.
wayne
Too bad the R40M, R42, R44 and R46 didn't keep the blue stripe, they were much more attracrive with it and it could hide some of the rust as well ;-).
You said it! The R44 and R46 in particular were ruined, appearance-wise, by the loss of the stripe. The R44 looks particularly bad with the carbon steel belly rusting right through.
The R44 may not be the worst ever, but looking at its 2001 MDBF record (from this site), it sure is in miserable company. The only car classes worse than the 44 are the orphan R110B and the Redbrids which are now practically on their deathbeds. I could tell you firsthand that they're no picnic. Only the redbirds, and maybe the R38 (So what is it, does the TA hate the (A)) line or what?) are jerkier and noisier. Amazing how much better the similar-looking R46 does.
:-) Andrew
Especially the R44! That exposed carbon steel makes it look awful but at least on the R40M, R42 & R46 it looks better [the R46 doesn't have that] but I would restore the belt stripe, not the light blue that runs from the window, over the car roof and to the other side, it doesn't need that again but now it just looks plain.
I am going to redefine "worst" in a few different ways:
Worst - mechanically R16.
Worst - aesthetically: Slant R40.
Worst - speed-wise: R68/R68A.
Worst - seating comfort: R-7a and R-9 with fiberglas bench seats;
also R40 and R40M
wayne
Ok, if you want the worsts in your format, here's what I think:
Worst mechanically-->R16
Worst aesthetically-->R40
Worst speed wise-->R44
Worst comfort--> no doubt R40/R40M
Lets add this:
Worst dest. signs-->sides:R10,R12 & R14 front:R32
I think the R68A's are good but I agree that the R68's take long to gain speed but not as bad as the 44's.
Lets add this:
Worst dest. signs-->sides:R10,R12 & R14 front:R32
The front on the R32's used to be much better before their rebuild. THey weren't designed that way. It was necessary though in order to put the A/C into the cars.
I know I'd rather make the "sacrifice" of getting rid of the roll signs than have no A/C. Why don't they put LED's [would have the bullet color of the line] on the R32 and R38 front signs, that would make them look better and easier to see.
The R44 is probably the swiftest 75' car in the fleet. Rating them as more sluggish than the hippos is comical.
The R68's/Hippos [not the R68A's] I agree do have the WORST accel and they weigh an unheard of 90,400 lbs, which is a factor. The R44, while they have so-so accel, it seems like it freezes on 20-25 for a while before they really pick up some speed.
The BMT standards were heavier than anything out there today and while they were underpowered, they weren't exactly slowpokes.
I would have to say that the worst subway car in terms of mechanical reliablity was the Green Hornet. The train only was on the transit system from 1934 to 1942 but was frequently in the shop. The most damning epithet for any subway car is to be found in Joe Cunnningham's History of the BMT. He comments on the Green Hornet's performance and states that "IT FAILED IN SERVICE FEB 6,1941." I have never heard that expression used in describing any other subway car including our much maligned R-16's.
Larry, RedbirdR33
But didn't the federal government want the Green Hornet for scrap during the WW2-era scrap drive? I thought that was why it only lasted eight years in service. Too bad, because it was a nice-looking subway train.
But didn't the federal government want the Green Hornet for scrap during the WW2-era scrap drive?
They took it for scrap but only because they took advantage of the fact that it was out of service at the time. I believe they were waiting for parts. If it had been operating I don't think it would have been scrapped.
The Hornet was an orphan, so it probably spent lots of time idle waitng for parts. It was also scrapped because it was made mostly of aluminum, not steel. Aluminum was desperatley needed for the manufacture of airplanes.
Hey "Joe" ... we got corrosion in 7079 ... go to Waldbaum's and get me a few rolls of Reynolds Wrap ....
--Mark
Don't forget aluminum tape.:)
Greller's book lauds the Green Hornet as being revolutionary in terms of design and technology. You must also remember the Hornet was scrapped in 1942 only because it's aluminium body was badly needed in the aircraft industry.
Worst - aesthetically: Slant R40.
I think everyone loves them to death (I know I do), but they are probably the worst designed cars because of their slant noses. They were true "lemons" in design. They are also probably the ugliest cars also in the system, especially because of all the gates and chains they had to add to them because of the design making it dangerous to pass between cars. But man, they are great because of their uniqueness, and will be very sorry when they are scrapped.
The R40M's are also pretty bad. They are bad because of the regular door on one end and the long skinny door on the other (which I really like). But when they redesigned the car, why they left two different type doors on either end is beyond me. It made them look like like something bad (like an accident) happened on one end, and they had to repace the other end (which is basically what happened - but they were designed that way as new!). When they modified the design to get rid of the slant end, they should have either left both ends with a regular door, or made both sides have skinny doors.
Why does everyone complain about the R40M/R40 Slants seats? I don't find them uncomfortable. Although I've been on the R40/R42 more than any other subway cars, I have no problems with the seats just like all the other everyday (M),(J), and (L) riders.
The most uncomfortable seats to me are on the R62/R62A's. To me they just suck when you have every seat taken and have to be squished by the other people siting. I would rather stand when I riding those subway cars on the (1) Line.
Although I've been on the R40/R42 more than any other subway cars, I have no problems with the seats just like all the other everyday (M),(J), and (L) riders.
Thjose were my lines also for many years. I love the R40's (both styles), but they do have the most uncomfortable seats in the system. When the R40M's are mixed with the R42's on a train, and you didn't really look to see if you were entering an R40 on the way in, the minute you sit down, you will realize you are on an R40 and not an R42!
You have that right.
Back in the day the other cars with horrible seats where those that had the ratten or cushon seats replaced by the fiberglass molded seats. Oh my achin' butt.
avid
Thought I wouldn't be posting today, but what the heck, I agree, the R40/R40M's are the most uncomfortable seats they are not curved and they are just odd. When you sit, your knees are higher than the seat[depending on height].
The R-42 seats are fine, if low-backed. It's the R-40(M) seats that are misshapen. (So are the R-142/142A/143 seats, at least with respect to the shape of my back.)
How about the R-44?
They may be a bit better now, but when new, with that "P" wire braking, they were breakdown city.
R16
R44
Pick 'em
Fred's got a point. In that case, I'll go with the R33/R36 World's Fair, because they look cool.
The R-32s have to rank up there, especially in their as-delivered state.
Then there are those who say the Triplexes were the best subway units ever built. Certainly they were as close to being maintenance-free as you can get.
My vote is still a tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s.
Too bad the 32's couldn't remain with the rollsigns in the front after the GOH but hey, I'd rather have the A/C. At least the GE's left a little more on the cars in the front and definitely look different from the MK 32's, too bad more weren't rebuilt by GE.
I say the R142's!!!
In the way of design, I like the R-44/46. In the way of service, the R-32.
The 6400 series R-16's. These GE cars were worse than the 6300 series Westinghouse cars. In the end, the GE cars were mothballed and eventually scrapped, while the Westinghouses limped along before they were cut up.
Bill "Newkirk"
While not the worst by any means, the most disappointing cars were the R27's/30's, which died way too young.
The Triplexes departed from the scene way too soon, IMHO.
The worst Subway Car is probably the R40. And the best Subway Car to me is the great R44.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Imma take a few stabs at this
-Worst "New Tech Car":R142(Bombardier)(Also Worst Running Car)
-Worst Speed:R68/R68A
-Worst looks:R40 Slants
BTW: Happy Thanksgiving
I disagree with you on the R68/68A, If you ever ride the R68 on the W Line when it runs express from Pacific - 36 St., you will change that opinion.
-AcelaExpress2005
Ok, lets put it like this. The hippos[R68] IS the slowest starting car out of all the 75 footers & in the whole system partly b/c of their weight[90,400 lbs].
The R68A's however are far better, I wish Kawasaki built more of those the interior is brighter, the exterior is a little more 'friendly' and start faster but the 68's aren't bad other than those issues.
In my time (since 1964) and going past my hate of cars without windows for me to look out of in the front such as R44 and R46, the worst car is the R40 slant. OH THAT SLANT! It is so ugly. How many times have I shook my head in disbelief at those ugly cars.
Also, the M4 on the Frankfurt El in Philadelphia looks like a big Almond Joy Bar as its nickname states. Those ventilation bulges make the M4 look like a train with tumors on its roof.
Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Chanaukah guys.
No doubt, the worst car in history has to be the R44. At the beginning, the R16's were basketcases, but the MDBF exceeded the R44's.
The best overall subway car was the R22. Fast, functional, and tough looking. R22 was the star in "The Taking of Pelham 123".
I still think that the R-16's are getting a bum rap. I rode them for the first 2 1/2 years of their life, and they were fine.
They were at their best making that express dash from Essex St to Eastern Parkway, stopping only at Myrtle Ave.
I don't remember any door problems, and all of their interior lights worked, which is more than you could say about the R-10's.
Their problems started after I left NY in 1957, and can probably be blamed on lack of any maintenance.
I still can't believe that 6400-6419 were delivered without any standee poles.
From what I've heard, the R-16s in later years acted as though their get-up-and-go got up and left on express runs.
My picks:
best: R-36 WF (especially the singles)
They have great MDBFs.
Worst: R-42. Ugly, boxy design; at best a weirdo, at worst an
eyesore.
This was in my NHRR West Jersey Chapter Quarterly, so I'm surprised that ChuChuBob hasn't posted ityet, but here's the news. In that I consider a brilliant move, NJT is constructing a new Layover Yard, south of the Trenton Station in Morrisville PA.
For thouse of you who do not know, MORRIS intelrocking is where the former electrified PRR "Trenton Cuttoff" diverged from the NEC. This like was a freight bypass of Philadelphia and ran to the Main Line at Downingtown PA. right as you left MORRIS interlocking there was a huge freight staging and clasifacation yard, Morrisville Yard. Anyway, when most freight left the NEC and the cuttoff was mostly used as a shortcut b/t the former Reading Trenton and Harrisburg Lines, Morrisville yard became largely redundant. Morrisville yard was also home to the pre-Metroliner high speed test vehicles in the late 1960's.
NJT is planning to install a 12 track storage yard there and a minor maintainence facility, with another 12 tracks added by 2006. The beauty is that Morrisville Yard still has all its old PRR catenary poles and cross-spans so NJT won't have to install anything new. Access to the NEC is via a 3 track lead that hooks into MORRIS interlocking, a flying junction allowing entering trains to avoid tying up the whole NEC. Moves will have to crossover to the local tracks atMORRIS, but this is nothing compared to what currently has to happen at FAIR interlocking (Trenton) where NJT and SEPTA trains must crossover all 4 mainline tracks. The train storage arrangmeent at Trenton is horrendus with NJT and SETPA trainsets shoehorned into all matter of sideing and station tracks. The new Morrissville Yard will get NJT storage out of Trenton and leave room for SEPTA to grow. It could also make possible a Morrisville Park and Ride facility for the growing number of PA residents who commute to NYC each day.
This will do for Trenton what the West Side Yard did for the LIAR.
What's the status of the new station? Has anyone in PA ponied up the $ yet?
It will be neat if someone can get down to the yard and take some pictures of the old catenary. With MN/CDOT/ATK pulling down the old NH wire, it's nice to see some of the old stuff still in use.
The Catenary in the yard was removed long ago. All that is there now are the poles. Still, its better than nothing.
So let 'em put up new wire in "PRR style" on the old poles! *VBG*
Here's a shot of Morrisville Yard under construction last St Patrick's Day, taken on the occaision of my cab ride on the Penn Jersey.
Taking a cue from PATCO, NJT has installed concrete ties on the Atlantic city line through out the length of the Haddonfield Trench (where NJT runs at a lower level than PATCO in the PATCO grade seperated trench). The BRAND NEW ties stretch from about Haddon Ave to Rileywood Ave in Haddonfield. When PATCO finishes replacing the wood ties on its W/B track Haddonfield will have a 3-track contrete mainline running through it. Its pretty hot.
Concrete ties not long last twice as long as normal ties, they also save valuable hardwood oak trees and requite no toxic preservatives.
Arrghh, I shoulda posted on this like a month ago, got caught up with school and all. I must say that the NJT and PATCO track is definitely not from the same manufacturer, I think the NJT track says "KDA" or something on it, while the Patco track is pretty much blank. A week or two ago it looked kinda wild, one track concrete tied, another wood tied, and a third wood tied, but with a different color wood, and all the Patco switches are still wood tied, which makes for somewhat odd views out the RFW. Is NJT experimenting with concrete ties here, or is this related to PATCO having laid concrete ties along the same ROW?
The PATCO tie replacement of the W/B track has reached the Lincoln Ave bridge, just north of haddonfield Station so for about 1000 feet you have contrete ties 3 accross.
In all concrete tie implementations the turnouts are usually left with wooden ties as turnouts requite a wide variety of tie lengths and rail anchoring points. Wooden ties can be cut and spiked quickly and easily onsite. Wooden ties are also frequently used on bridges to save on weight.
Will it take steep cuts in late night service to save money?
If you go to 24 min headways for a few hours on the midnights you basically cut a train from the road (Let us forget the GSS). Now at the end of each day you have to lay it up when you had it on the road previously and now you have to make it up for service because it was laid up. In Queens and parts of the North except 207st there really are no places to easily lay up a train. Some jobs that had no put in could be given one like 111 middle on the hill (YUCK) but there are not too many of those jobs with fat left and most of them have that fat for weather plan adjustments.
My point is without decreasing day service decreases in night service will save little. You will save the cost of a crew but also have to pay 3 hrs of that back, potentially at OT rate. Putins can be problematic for other reasons too and having one or two fewer midnight crews around make problems more likely on bad weather days.
There are several relatively painless ways to cut service:
1. Eliminate the midday M south of Chambers St.
2. Eliminate weekend C service in Brooklyn along with express A service.
3. Eliminate night/weekend G service on Queens Blvd.
4. Cut #4 service to Atlantic Ave. on weekends.
5. Eliminate the 42nd St. shuttle on weekends.
All of these may be tolerable EXCEPT #5:
"5. Eliminate the 42nd St. shuttle on weekends"
Do you ever come into Manhattan at weekends? Haven't you heard that Times Square is a tourist destination?
A service should stay the way it is. It's murder on the T/Os who drive a train all the way to the rockaways.
We're talking about saving money. Some sacrifice is unavoidable.
I made an impromtu railfan trip this afternoon to see the use of the center track at the National Airport station. For those of you who don't know, National Airport station is an elevated station with 3 tracks and 2 island platforms. The center track has been used to turn around trains since the station opened in 1977 until Van Dorn Street opened in 1993. Originally, there was one enterance at the south end of the platforms. When the new terminal opened, an enterance opened at the north end, but the canopy covered only half the platform. We were told it cost too much money to make the canopy go over the entire platform. They are now extending it to cover the whole platform. To do so, one platform is closed at a time, and all trains use the other platform. Currently, northbound trains are using the center track. When the northbound platform canopy is complete, southbound trains will use the center track. This is the first time the center track has been used for through service on a regular basis (that I am aware of).
That said, I will now begin telling about my travels.
Got a ride to the airport. I walked through the terminal a bit, security lines were rather short at the two checkpoints I passed. Used the north (terminal C) enterance to enter the subway. The escalators on both ends (I had been on the Terminal B bridge earlier) of the northbound platform are blocked off. They have signs on the platform indicating which trains are stopping where. They can be moved to the other platform very easily when it comes time. Got some pictures of a few trains in the station, then hopped on Breda 3289 (highest numbered car in the series) and took it to Braddock Road. At Braddock, I got a picture of a passing VRE train and a CSX deisel with a Yellow line train. Then hopped on Rohr 1082 and took it back to the airport. It was the 6th car of the train and I had it entirely to myself. At the airport, I got on another Blue line, Rohr 1175 and took that to King Street. While on that train, the VRE Sounder cars passed me (I could see the lights when we were at Braddock but decided not to get off there). Once there, I got on Breda 3245 and took it one stop, to Eisenhower, where I got pictures of trains with the George Washington Masonic Temple in the background. One operator asked me what I was doing although when I told him I liked watching trains he let me be. After about 20 minutes, I got on Breda 4053 and took that back to the airport, where I waited for the next Blue Line. It was led by Rohr 1052, which I took to Arlington Cemetery. My pictures there came out somewhat blurry (digital zoom without the tripod doesn't work too well quite often). The handicapped faregate on the Addison Road platform still has the SmarTrip signs on it (from when not all gates accepted SmarTrip). As a train of Breads to Addison Road was entering, Rohr 1101 and 1100 entered. I am quite sure they have AC motors but are just missing the marker. In any event, I got a picture of 1100. Took Breda 3013 to Metro Center (where I got a picture of 3000, it was the last car of the train) and then took Breda 3016 on the Red Line back home.
Observations:
Trains using the center track went a mere 15 MPH over the switching tracks on both ends of the station
Quite a few trains were in manual on the Blue and Yellow Lines
Trains were crowded when I started (about 3:15 PM). My Red Line train had a few standees but not all seats were taken. Breda 3012 was very empty. The Blue Line trains seemed to be the most crowded throughout the system.
Many Blue and Orange line trains were only 4 cars. Many Rohrs on the Orange and two sets on the Rohrs. One 6 car yellow line train.
In short, it looks like most people have already left town.
Other than the VRE shots at Braddock Road, I missed getting shots of VRE trains, since I always seemed to be on a Metro train whenever a VRE train went by. Perhaps some other day when it isn't freezing cold.
A preview of what will appear as part of the next OTP from today's trip:
Breda train on National Airport center track
Breda train leaving National Airport switching from the center track to the northbound track
Picture of the day: Rohr train on the northbound track having just switched from the center. The train is about to go underground to go to Crystal City, Downtown, and ultimately Addison Road. In the background, you can see both the Kennedy Center and the National Cathedral!
Breda train and a CSX CW60AC at Braddock Road
Despite "enabling all cookies" under Preferences Privacy & Security AND
Unblocking cookies from Tools Cookie Manager, seeting preferences for Subtalk does not hold from one session to the next. What is the problem ?
I would suggest deleting 7 and go back to 4.8, which is still available on the Netscape site. 7 has bugs galore, ask Selkirk. He knows,
I use Netscape 7 here with no problems.
The problem I did have, about the corupted subject line can be fixed by going to the preference and shutting off "Remember Passwords" or "Forms" or some such arrant nonsense.
Theloks Hkdjwen dhl sldit sjdh a;sldn lskehn skjdja dkdnan Ssjdh Hlsk!
Yep, that's one of the problems with "open sores" code ... written by amateurs wet behind the ears. That "preferences/passwords/forms" thing will also screw up the cookies and several other things. The Gecko HTML engine is nice, but you can smell that AOL's been in that kitchen. :)
Stick with 4.8 the best browser out there. I have to use IE for work and hate it.
I've always used Netscape myself (along with a little protective juice from our products to keep it safe from AOL) and consider Aiyee to be a dog (though we have a prophylactic for that as well) ... what bugs me about Aiyee isn't so much the way it runs or its stupid features like:
THIS is stupid ...
or automatically running any and all viruses without benefit of human intervention. But Netscape's been getting crappier and crappier with time as well ever since Billy killed Netscape and it fell into the hands of the AntiMicrosoft, AOL ...
There's too many websites out there that won't work right any more on 4.78, like VIA Rail and Best Western. What's the next biggest, succesful browser ? Mozilla ?
Mozilla is ALMOST working - Mozilla is what Netscape 6 and 7 are based on, along with some extra AOL nonsense to turn your privacy into Ashcroft as a roomie. But Bless Netscape and Aiyee ... I make my living neutering the bad bits about both. One of these days, the kids will get Mozilla working nicely. I was one of the originals on the Mozilla "team" before AOL got Netscape. Most of us bailed at that point.
You know, if there was just a single web broswer "browser issues" wouldn't exist. And, much like standard railroad guage, since most people already use IE we might as well just roll with it. The Bandwagon style network effects will more than outweight any shortcommings with the browser. Remember, its not the product that's important, its having a standard.
>>> Remember, its not the product that's important, its having a standard. <<<
It would be so much better if we had only one standard mouse trap, so there would not be so much traffic to people's doors, eh? What about one standard computer operating system, say CP/M? :-)
Tom
No, not CP/M. What I want is this: When I turn on the Pentium 4 at 2.0 gHz (or whatever the top speed is now), I want to see a text mode BASIC display telling me how many bytes I have availible followed by the "OK" prompt.
-Robert King
Yah lets have one browser, just like we have one Operating System and now we can have the US Government sue the one browser compmany for a monopoly.
Great Idea!!
We already tried that ... didn't work. :(
B"H
I decided (after seeing the last IE exploit posted somewhere, and realizing that it could theoretically format your hard drive if coded properly) to start using Mozilla 1.0. So far, I can report that it is very much similar to IE in functionality, and I even found a skin that looks just like IE! weird. The best part is the 'tabbed browsing' thing. just look into it. mozilla.org
Mozilla is basically Netscape 7 with a different shell. We have it on our Linux machine in Helpdesk and nobody can stand it. We've demanded our Linux manager to remove it and either isntall Opera or better yet, the KDE windows manager with its Konquorer browser. Both of which are vastly better than Mozilla.
Hey... How come I can see your thingie in Netscape.
I have NS 4.7, NS 7.0, IE 6.x and Opera 6.x on my box. I use them for different porpoises, but as a webmaster, I want to see how my stuff looks on different browsers.
I got both a 17" and a 15" minitor connected to this box, so I can move a browser from screen to screen to examine the results.
My site is designed to look its best at 800px.
Elias
Amazing what can be done with proper tags, eh? That's why I don't blame Netscape when some sites don't work. There's still too many "webmasters" who are collecting paychecks who SHOULD be asking if you want fries with that. Sites that hire lousy webmasters don't DESERVE the traffic, and that's how I vote.
I agree, but Netscape truly is trash when it comes to browsers. I hate Bill Gates and MS, but I'll stick to IE unless someone can suggest a third option.
There's "Opera" but it's highly limited and has its own "problems" as well. Microsoft effectively killed the browser market when they hijacked it from companies that were making money selling them - there were quite a few actually, Hummingbird, Netscape, QNX, and others whose name escapes me. Once Microsoft decided to play earthquake chess though by cutting out any chance of recovering the costs of research, we got stuck with Aiyee. Mozilla isn't all THAT bad, and has little of AOL's spyware in it. And Netscape, for all its faults, is still a *LOT* more secure than Aiyee. But yeah, we're screwed as far as browsing safely goes without external armaments.
AOL though has REALLY screwed up Netscape. So badly in fact that even though they OWN it, the AOL service is Aiyee under the hood. Says pretty much everything. Still, most of us will put up with Netscape because it's far more secure (even with AOL screwage) than Aiyee.
Huh? I use Opera as my primary browser nowadays. Opera rocks.
It's had a few security issues lately, although it's gotten a LOT safer since they stopped using Aiyee's html engine. Javascripting has had problems, buffer overflows, the usual ... :)
I deleted any and all cookies that had anything to do with nyc.subway and subtalk. Then it set a new one when I set the Subtalk's Preferences, and that did it. Apparantly, Netscape is bad at resetting cookies or writing new ones when things change, so you have to clean the slate.
What happened to the good Netscaoe techies when AOL took over ?
They were fired. Since Netscape/Mozilla is written in Linux anyway, many went to IBM, a few came here. And yeah, that "autocomplete" thing in Moz/Netscape is HAUNTED ... the Mozilla kids STILL don't consider Mozilla done, only reason why Mozilla was released at all was pressure from AOL because they waited too long for a Netscape 5 (yes, I know there was never a Netscape 5, that's my point) and threatened to fire them ALL unless there was a release. Amazing how short a life Netscape 6 had, Netscape 7 will be the equivalent of the R16's for longevity, Netscape 8.0 is in the pipe already and should be in "formal beta" in about a month or so ... heh.
Glad that did it, had a feeling that was the problem. The Gecko engine (HTML core) of Netscape is pretty decent - that was built by the original "Mozilla team" of Sun and Mozilla people. Then the hanging of ornaments began in earnest among the AOL kids and now you have the mess we have. Imagine ... Mozilla had been trimmed down to 6 megs in size before the bloatmeisters gassed it up. :(
Notice they will call the next one 8, not 7.1. The have to show it's a major improvment. What's Mozilla, as opposed to Netscape ?
Mozilla is the "open sores" code which AOL diddles into Netscape. Mozilla is the "core" of Netscape and is written in LINUX/GNU GCC and ported to Windows, Macs, etc. More can be found here:
http://www.mozilla.org/
Mozilla was Netscape Corp's answer to Microsoft killing the market for them to sell the original Netscape for $30 ... you can't compete with "free" so Netscape ditched the browser onto a collective of volunteers along with all the code Netscape had developed up to that point and said, "have fun" ... we did ... until AOL came along and "acquired" Netscape. :(
Ha, that thing with viruses is nothing more than Anti-Microsoft propaganda. I have used IE for years and years and never had a problem with a single virus. Only MORONS who can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground click who click on "yes" all the time get viruses.
Anyway, now that your company is toast, all your Netscape fossils are going to have to get a new browser. If you are unwilling to accept the world standard, I have heard Opera is pretty good.
>>> Anyway, now that your company is toast <<<
Gee, Selkirk, sorry to hear that. Why did you tell Jerky Mike about your problem and not the rest of us. I guess you will be going back into the political world. Have you applied to Joe Bruno for a job? :-)
Tom
Actually, we're HIRING ... dunno where Jerky got his info, must be the same orifice he pulls the REST of his information from. :)
I meant "your precious browser company". Just sort of got lazy typing it.
THERE I can't help but agree ... but if you read the history of what happened, they didn't jump, they were pushed. I apologize for my harshness there, but after ten plus years of dealing with Microsoft's total lack of interest in security, especially as a network admin in government, I BRISTLE at the "party line" about "standards." Microsoft has made an industry of subverting well-constructed "standards" which leave us far less secure than more so. In THESE times, for Microsoft to CONTINUE to create more and more security holes, I consider Redmond to be FAR more of a thraet to this nation than Al Qaeda. But they own the current administration, so I'm not holding my breath about it.
Back in the days when Netscape Communications was its own company and going balls to the wall, a web browser was SAFE to use because it was a standalone application. If someone fed it "bad stuff" then it crashed, and that was it. Microsoft changed the entire regime here and very MUCH not for the better owing to "browser/OS integration" which was absolutely NOT necessary.
Back in 1997, I testified before the Federal Trade Commission, and advised the NYS Attorney General as well as the FTC when they took Microsoft to court. If you have some time, check out this transcript of my testimony, particularly near the end of it as I predicted back before IE3 what was to come ... I did pretty well at prognosticating in retrospect, and have been in the business of mitigating the damage ever since. So while I don't admire Microsoft at ALL, I do depend on their constant screwups to earn a living ...
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/privacy/wkshp97/comments2/nsclean.htm
And here we are today, in "wartime" and the problems Microsoft's choices made are only getting worse. That's why I bash ...
Does the Browser/OS integration still hold for NT systems?
BTW we had a talk about this when MS came recruiting on campus (boy did they spend $$ for freebies). They has chosen to make flexability a priority over security and now bowing to consumer demand they are making security their top priority. MS is not a dictatorship here. They do everything based on consumer demand which is how things should be. Given a pure economic analysis, MS has lowered prices (for both "Office" applications and operating systems) and provided products that the majority of comsumers prefer. Notice how poorly MS Money has done compared to Quicken. Comsumers prefer Quicken and big bad MS hasn't "forced" their product on anyone. Where MS makes a better product it suceeds and where it dosen't it dosen't.
There's even MORE "integration" in NT/2000/XPee which is why we won't use it for any of our "real" computers and servers here. Not only is the browser integrated, but so is MDAC, IIS, even the "fast find" in MS Office (which sure makes it a WHOLE lot easier for hacker kiddies to find just what they're looking for even if you put it onto an encrypted file system - and yes, the password to unlock the encrypted files is readily available over the wire too) ...
I'm glad you believe in Microsoft, I'm sure they'll offer you an executive position. I look at them from another perspective, as a small little company that Microsoft has spent the last seven years trying to put out of business and has failed at it. If you read that testimony we did before the FTC a couple of messages back, you'll see why I've earned the "wrath'o'Bill" and even though we're just a little tiny "mom and pop" the full force of Microsoft was brought to bear on us, and still is. I'd rather invite Osama into my home. :(
But here's hoping that your allegiance to the company there gets you those trusted keys to the executive washroom. Do be aware though that they're hiring in India and Scotland at the moment, and that once you've worked for Microsoft, even as an intern, you can no longer work ANYWHERE else in the business owing to their forced "nondisclosure policy agreement" that curtails you for the rest of your life. We saw some really bright kids come in here for job interviews over the years, and there were a couple I *really* wanted to hire. Couldn't though.
And if you check the trends, the ONLY reason Microsoft is making money is by strongarming people and businesses with their licensing policies to upgrade whether they want to or not. The trend now is to Linux, and it's accelerating faster daily, especially in other countries and among corporate clients. IBM is installing Linux and has turned rather profitable. Must be a reason. :)
What are the contents of the nondisclosure agreement? They must have put some heavy stuff in there if it curtails so much future employment. And wouldn't that prospect discourage people from accepting the agreement and working for Microsoft, especially for short term positions (where the concern about having to find future employment is even more real) like the interns?
In 1999, I was almost hired by a company that's a "Dedicated Microsoft Solution Provider" or something of that sort. Basically, the title meant that they used Microsoft products exclusively for absolutely everything they used and made. There were numerous plaques and certificates for various achievements on the walls by the entrance area signed by Bill Gates, commending all of this. Not being an adamant Microsoft supporter during the interview, which was a mistake on my part, I found out about two weeks later that they'd decided to hire two university students instead of me.
Then came the tech wobble, shortly followed by the tech crash which pretty much forced me out of that line of work, despite a very good start. I did find employment that summer, at GPS video, I'm still waiting to be paid, but that story isn't suitible for this message board.
-Robert King
>>> What are the contents of the nondisclosure agreement? They must have put some heavy stuff in there if it curtails so much future employment <<<
Generally, employment contracts that prevent an employee from working for the competition in the future have to be narrowly drawn as to time and place. If the employee interacts with customers, the agreement can prevent the employee from going to a competitor in the area where he could take the customers with him. If the employee is in a position to learn trade secrets the agreement can prevent him from working for a competitor who could use those secrets for limited period of time.
I am sure Microsoft is not bashful in drawing up their employment contracts as broadly as possible. Since software is sold worldwide, the have customers all over, and since the software code is the basis of their business, and knowledge of their code will help a competitor clone their products it is clearly a trade secret. If they wish to, they can sue a former employee for breach of the contract he signed regarding working for a competitor, and sue the new employer for interference with contractual relations. Since most software companies do not wish to be sued by Microsoft (the 800 lb gorilla) they will be wary of hiring a former employee, even if the contract would not be enforced by a court as being overbroad.
Tom
ALas, nor is an explanation of how Microsoft's "nondisclosure" and "noncompete" clauses in their employment contracts or internships. I was amazed to not be able to find any copies of it, there were dozens of sites that had the full Microsoft contract online, but I guess Billy didn't approve of that and had them removed. From OUR standpoint legally, it's impossible to determine what knowledge a programmer we were to hire might have obtained at Microsoft, and because of the way the law works here, Microsoft can make a claim against us for pretty much any cause should we hire someone who worked there and HAS sued us in the past, claiming we had appropriated "Microsoft intellectual property" by hiring a former "MVP" to work our website. So now, any history with Microsoft causes an applicant to be thrown away here.
Here's a non-related link on how NDAs and NCAs can ruin your career in computers if you should choose poorly. Most kinds in school are dumb enough to sign away their lives:
"How NDAs and noncompete agreements could kill your guru career"
Steve, don't let Jerky Mike get you going. As he said only Moron's can get a virus, I guess his help desk doesn't know what the average computer user is then...
Boy ... now THERE'S a gig I don't miss ... at least HERE, I write most of the code, know where the bones are and can actually FIX it if someone's unhappy. We're still waiting on those kids in Redmond to fix THEIR bad code. :)
Now there is a concept, bad code and you fix it??
Gee wiz no wonder your broke... You have to fix it and release it the following year and charge for the "upgrade"....
Yeah, I'm kinda stuck there ... too many people have my REAL email address and also know where I live. I don't like stab wounds. Heh. We DO charge though to fix MICROSOFT'S problems, that's how I eat. As to any that WE generate, well ... that's MY fault. Gotta fix THAT. :)
You generate your answer to deregulated natural gas prices?
-Robert King
Nah, we drill for oil in the capitol. Nope, can't fix the administration's problems either. Tried to, though. :)
Anybody have problems AOL 8.0 and Subtalk??
8.0 is using Aiyee 6.0 ... has a built-in crappy cookie manager that might be hosed, might want to call the help desk and ask them. It's pretty much the same deal as Netscape 7.0 though - both browser manufacturers have tried to incorporate "cookie control" in their later versions and haven't quite managed to do it the way we do where it's seamless ...
That's crossing the fine line between accepting a standard and tolerating a monopoly. Eye-E is a security nightmere, particularly with the security admission last August that "secure" banking transactions were not at all, and here's a security patch.
I hate Bil Gates. He copies everything and still can't get it right. Windows operating systems are by definition unstable despite being copied from Steve Jobs and Apple, which is why most ATM's are OS2; DOS is copied from 1970-era Unix, and Unix-type systems seldom crash.
It is DOS and Windows that are the dinosaurs Mike, not Netscape.
Actually, Joe, DOS was actually started by a liitle Seattle computer shop and based on CP/M. Bates bought the little shop, lock, stock & barrel to get it (he had actually signed the contract with IBM for the O/S and didn't have anything)and sorta finished it. It was said if you put a IBM PC running DOS 1 and a machine running CP/M side-by-side you couldn't tell the difference.
Windows was built on DOS. 9X still uses basic DOS to do the file handling chores.
MicroSquish has never written anything from scatch. Everything is built on top of the previous version.
Despite MS's habit of stealing things software, if you look at any Windows PC in the System Tools folder you will find Scandisk and Defrag - which is licensed from Symantec. MS has to pay Symantec for every copy of Windows produced. Scandisk and Defrag are stripped down versions of Symantec's Disk Doctor and Speed Disk, part of Norton Utilites.
The story of NT/2000/XP is even MORE amusing (and relevant since MVM's use this unvarnished turd) ... "once upon a time" IBM, going on the popularity of its personal computers wanted to come up with a SECURE, Windows-like operating system for business, particularly government and banking. And so, computer scientists from Boca Raton, Watson labs and Microsoft got together to develop a little ditty called "OS/2" ... in partnership. IBM developed some of the code, and Microsoft developed some.
"OS/2" became a disaster in development because of operability problems and serious security failures, which resulted in OS/2 NOT being certified as C3 compliant (CIA stuff) and resulting in bitter fights between IBM and Microsoft. Eventually as time went on, IBM had more than a snootful of dealing with Microsoft and their programmers and sought a divorce. IBM got to keep what THEY developed, and Microsoft was given all that Microsoft developed, as IBM wanted no part of the bag of ... ahem ... that Microsoft had built.
After the divorce, IBM released OS/2, and IBM took their sack of ... ahem ... and called it "NT" ... since Microsoft broke up with IBM in an unpleasant manner, IBM did not license the "kernel" to Microsoft and Microsoft had to purchase the core code from a company called Hummingbird and a few others and bollocksed that as well. OS/2 was certified C3 compliant. Microsoft never achieved the security rating, even all these year later though they did CLAIM to be C2 compliant, but only if the NT box was not hooked up to a network. :)
I wonder how many though using NT, 2000 or XPee (Extra Pain) realize that they're running the castoffs of OS/2? Heh.
So, where does Northern Telecom fit into your pie?
Elias
North end of course ... I'm apparently missing an angle here of where they're involved. Still got my old "Contempra" phone from them, cheesy as all getout but still works after rewinding the sidetone coil.
Anywhere, as long as it isn't in the stock portfolio! Maybe Nortel can get out of their hole by diversifying into those nifty fibre optic Christmas trees.
-Robert King
That *is* what the "NT" stands for in WinNT including WinNT 5.1 (aka XP)
Lawsy ... dish, brother! I never heard THAT one. So MS suckered telcom into the mess too? I thought "New Technology" was solely the sloppy seconds from the IBM mess ... I mean, considering that ALL of this "windows" stuff from the Mac to KDE desktop was all contrived POORLY from Xerox' "PARC" project.
I thought "New Technology" was solely the sloppy seconds from the IBM mess ...
When you *buy* the boxed upgrade, it gives credit where credit is due.
Northern Telecom invented what is now the NTFS file system and attendant security systems, (IIRC) (then called HTFS or somesuch), and Billy'sSoft pays them a roylaty to use it.
I suspect the kernel comes to the system via the route you mentioned.
Elias
Wow ... didn't know that. Just looked, and apparently Hummingbird Technologies became part of NorTel at some point, so yeah, that would make sense. IBM may actually be the only company that managed to do to Billy what he's done to everybody else by denying him their essence. :)
Netscape 7 is utter garbage. Try using IE or if you're some anti-Microsoft nut try Opera. I hear good things about Opera.
Try using IE. There hasn't been a good version of Netscape since they moved past 4.x
-Hank
A really silly answer may be to check the date on your PC. I had the same problem as you and I found that somehow the date was wrong - problem solved.
Simon
Swindon UK
I'm constantly being amazed by the ALP-46s. Buried in the text of the engineer's familiarization guide is the fact that they develop 10,000 HP. Significant when you consider that the LIRR DMs and DEs get less than 1/3 of that.
More interesting is not the fact that the locos are equiped with GPS but the fact that with the correct password, I'm told you can check the location of every ALP-46 and the locomotive's status, right on the Bombardier website. NO, I don't have that password - yet.
One final note. One of the factors that limited the NJT Arrows usefulness is the fact that NJT Catanary switches from 11KV to 25KV. While the ALP44 and ALP46 switch automatically, the Arrows do not. NJT is going to convert them so that they also have the 'automatic tap' changing feature. This will permit them to operate under wire in all parts of the NJT system.
Is that 10,000hp a continious rating or short duration overload? On modern locomotives the limiting factor for hp is traction motor size and cooling and the upper limit is around 2000hp per axle. Also, most released specs on the 46's have them rated at 8000hp.
Short time overload, probbably.
Another interesting factoid - the short time overload ratings allow for a TE of about 60klbs at 40mph. Try that with an F-40 >:)
Why are we suddenly surprised that electrics are more powerful than self-sufficient locomotives? Ever since the DD-1, electrics have been vastly superrior to locomotives that have to generate their own power.
Gee now if only we could get those pesky transformers to keep working!
The HEP transformer. That story makes no sense at all. IMHO, something's not being told in it.
...that I don't actually know much about the NY transit system. (Betcha thought this was going to be INTERESTING!!! ...d'oh!)
When did the SBK become part of NYCTA?
Thanks!
Frank Hicks
SBK was part of the BRT/BMT. After NYCTA in 1953 took over from NYCBOT, (which took over the BMT in 1940) the SBK then became part of NYCTA.
Next you will be making public the secrets of the great jello scandle or .....
avid
"SBK was part of the BRT/BMT. After NYCTA in 1953 took over from NYCBOT, (which took over the BMT in 1940) the SBK then became part of NYCTA."
Gotcha... I guess.
I read somewhere that the BQT at least was operated from 1940 to 1953 under the name New York City Transit System. Is this erroneous? If not, what was the relationship between NYCBOT and NYCTS? Were the BMT lines operated under the NYCBOT name, or NYCTS? Was NYCTS simply a part of NYCBOT? And, back to SBK: was that line's equipment still lettered SBK while it was owned by BMT? When did the SBK identity cease to become visible - in other words, when did SBK equipment lose its identity and simply become more NYCTA equipment? I know that a couple of those SBK steeplecabs had 5-digit NYCTA numbers - do you know when they acquired them? Also, while you're at it, what is the meaning of life? :-)
Yeesh... I know, that's a lot of questions. I would greatly appreciate answers to ANY of them!
Frank Hicks
New York City Transit System was a letterboard herald applied by
the Board of Transportation to both ex-BMT and ex-IRT elevated
equipmnent. NYCTS was never an official anything, just a marketing
name.
I'll defer to BMTman on SBK matters. I don't think "S B K" was
ever shown on the equipment. The railway used to be called
the SOB.
Thanks for the plug, Jeff. :)
Frank, the South Brooklyn Railway is an interesting subject all to itself. As far as I'm concerned, I use the year 1975 as the year when the SBK lost its 'identity'. Why that date? Simple: That year, the shortline no longer ran distinctively mainline equipment. It was the year when NYCTA purchased two 50 Ton diesels from GE that they numbered N1 and N2. These two diesels are in all respects the same order as the subway system's maintenance-of-way locomotives (yellow). Other than their red paint schemes, N1 and N2 differ only in the fact that they must meet FRA standards (they sport regulation grab-irons, ditch lights and dual-airhorns).
Prior to 1975, the Transit Authority was using two 70-ton GE diesels for waterfront freight service. Those locos, numbered 12 & 13 -- because of their size -- were restricted to SBK trackage and short stretches of the BMT Southern Division.
Now, IF I were a PURIST I would say that the SBK lost its identity back in 1961. Prior to that date, the SBK ran their world-famous steeplecab electric locomotives (like #5, 6 and 7 which still survive today). In 1961, the overhead wire was de-energized as the NYCTA decided to rely completely on diesel-power to make the runs between the Sunset Park waterfront, McDonald Avenue and Coney Island Yards. It was purely an economical decision since trolley car operations ceased several years earlier, and only South Brooklyn was in need of overhead wiring. It didn't make a heck of a lot of sense to keep trolley-type ops just for line that ran 9 miles.
BTW, going back far enough, the line's original tag was SoBKY. It became SBK rather late in the game (around the mid 60's)
Hope that helps you out...
Doug
Thanks for all the info on SBK, Doug. I do have one more question I can think of, while I ponder how exactly to describe the ownership history of the surviving SBK equipment.
Where the SBK steeplecabs are concerned, my notes say that they acquired five-digit NYCTA numbers at one point. SBK 4 became 20001, 5 became 20004, and I don't know what 6 became. Do you know when the locomotives were renumbered? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
BTW, for what it's worth, SBK 5 is one of the most historic steeplecabs preserved in North America - it's the only surviving GE with the arch-topped side windows. What a NEAT engine!
Yes, and it resides in the Transit Museum. It would be quite nice for BERA's rails....Heh.
I saw 5 in operation about 4 years ago during my time at the NYTM. 5 and the three BUs were towed from Coney Island Yard by diesel. They returned from the shop with a cosmetic makeover. The lead diesel was cut away, Loco 5 was allowed into the station under her own power. It's motors were groaning and sparks flew as she crossed between the two Museum tracks outside of the platform at Court St. The locomtive pulled the three BU Type Cars and a standard TA diesel locomtive into the display position at the Museum. The trailing diesel was cut afterwards. I remained there after the Museum had closed it's doors for the day. Oh! What a day that was...
-Stef
Frank, the silly 5-digit numbering had to do with some new computering system that the NYCTA was involved with at that time (early-mid sixties IIRC). I believe they later went back to the old numbering system.
Where the SBK steeplecabs are concerned, my notes say that they acquired five-digit NYCTA numbers at one point. SBK 4 became 20001, 5 became 20004, and I don't know what 6 became. Do you know when the locomotives were renumbered? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
Frank: The TA started renumbering all work equiptment in 1962 in the 20,000 series.
SBK 4 to 20001
SBK 5 to 20002
SBK 6 to 20003
SBK 7 to 20004
SBK 8 to 20005
SBK 10 to 20006
SBK 11 to 20007
SBK 12 to 20008
SBK 13 to 20009
The TA again renumbered work equiptment in 1966 using a three digit number preceded by a letter(s) prefix. All the above locomotives reverted back to there original single number at that time. I find it interesting the 10 and 11 where considered SBK locomotives since they were assigned to the Speno Rail Grinder train.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, thanks for the list. You're really on the job there!
As for engines 10 and 11, from what I understand they were purchased as motive power for SBK, but did not stay with the shortline for long (most likely due to their diminutive size* not being enough to haul fully loaded boxcars and the like). They became rail grinders early in their careers with NYCTA and remained so until their retirement. BTW, I witnessed #11 sitting out in Bush Terminal Yards awaiting a float barge move to Greenville, New Jersey where it'd be met by a scrapper's torch.
*Single truck diesel unit.
Aye! And 10 lives on in the Museum. I've been told that 10 and 11 were used as yard goats at Coney Island Yard for a number of years, in addition to being used on a newly created CWR train in the 80s.
Yard Goats - pushing/pulling equipment to/from the shop.
10 and 11 have reputations it seems. One of them blew a gasket some years ago and blew out shop windows in the process. Oh my....
I can also remember 10 having a breakdown about 5 years ago prior to her entry at the Museum up here at Jackson Middle. Loco 50, already pulling a Jet Snowblower, had to push 10 from behind.
Those were the memories...
-Stef
Yard goats =/or equivalent to airport tugs...sad work routine they ended up being used for...
Doug: Thank you. I enjoyed your post about the history of the SBK. I know I have a copy of the whole roster around someplace but I can't seem to lay my hands on it.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Bernie Linder did a superb history of the SBK in a series of articles in some old ERA bulletins...maybe that's where you saw the roster?
BTW, forgot that I took a shot of a fellow SubTalker posing inside the cab of #11 with a fresh coating of snow over the engine (Feb. of 2001).
RIPTA42HopeTunnel can attest to this ;)
BTW, forgot that I took a shot of a fellow SubTalker posing inside the cab of #11 with a fresh coating of snow over the engine (Feb. of 2001).
January 27, 2001
Wow! Only off by a few days...(thought it was February).
Thanks to a particular supt with ties to Branford, I was assigned while working work trains to move the 10 and 11 from Westchester Yard to 207th Street. 11 was already stripped and was treated as a brake pipe rupture before moving. An air hose was connected from the flat car BP hose around the 11 and connected to the 10 so the ends of the consist had working air brakes. The last time I recall the 10 and 11 working was 1987 on the Concourse line pulling flat cars during a G.O.
I was talking to a friend yesterday about the SBK. He pointed out my error in that engines 10 & 11 were indeed PURCHASED FOR USE on the South Brooklyn, but that the ICC forbid their use in freight service (too small for freight use). Upon delivery, they were immediately turned over to MOW for use on the Speno Train...
BMT Man, Larry Red Bird, Grounded Shoe Beam & Stef and others,
I found this tread most interesting in reference to SBK Locomotives.
But am I missing something, or can one of you clue me in as to the
history of #9, that is at TMNY and has been know to tow or push
6398???
;-) Sparky
Whitcomb locos #8 & #9 were both acquired from the U.S. Army, IIRC.
I've seen shots of #9 running freight down McDonald Ave. Also, I believe 'Gotham Turnstiles' has a shot of either #8 or #9 on the pit track at CI Yards for an overhaul.
Gotta check my files over the weekend for more details...
John, glad you enjoyed this thread. Your partronage here is greatly appreciated :)
You can see some pictures of #9 in action at Kingston here. I'm curious in the renumbering how/why 9 became 20000, then the others in sequence (4 became 20001, etc).
Here's a shot I took in the late 70's on McDonald and Ditmas:
-Larry
Larry,
Thank you. Looks like the civil war paint and the >M< Logo.
;-) Sparky
Nice pic. The MTA GE's are some of my favorite locomotives, Let's keep this thread going.
I'm doing my part.
I'd be the first to advocate putting one in a Museum. It would serve a purpose.
-Stef
I'd be the first to advocate putting one in a Museum. It would serve a purpose.
-Stef
Stef: Are you talking about a railway vehicle or one of the sub-talkers?
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
hahaha
LOL!
Do we have any SubTalkers that belong in a Museum Collection? Hmmmm. Oh - he'll be stuffed and mounted!!!
-Stef
Do we have any SubTalkers that belong in a Museum Collection? Hmmmm. Oh - he'll be stuffed and mounted!!!
-Stef
Stef: I don't know about putting and one in a museum. (with maybe on exception.) But there are a few (probably myself included) that some time on the Funny Farm won't do any harm.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
But there are a few (probably myself included) that some time on the Funny Farm won't do any harm.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Well with a fun pass we can take the J/Z or M to Flushing Avenue and
go to the fifth floor of Woodhull and we can join "the nuts & bolts"
for some quality time.
;-) Sparky
Alright, everyone seems to be is enjoying this thread. Well I have these two photos from my collection to add from the SBK. They were in the same spot as the "Mystery Photos" I posted last month were (a shoebox full of old photos that my father purchased at a yard sale back in the 70's).
Any info on SBK #13 would be greatly apppreciated (also approx date and where it is in the photo).
Also any info on "the office" in photo 2 also. I assume it's MacDonald Ave.
Hi Chris,
It appears that the first photo was taken at the Davidson Pipe Co. in Bush Terminal at 39th and 3rd Avenue. It probably dates back to the late 60's. I don't have any information on Loco #13 except that I believe I remember seeing it at 36th Street Yard "Open House" back in the 60's. My father took me to the Open House.
The second photo looks like it was taken under the Culver Shuttle just before it connects to the "F" Line at Ditmas Avenue. It looks like it could be the late 40's or the 1950's.
Hope this is of some help.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bob, Chris is 100% on pic #1. Shot could even be prior to 62 (as you can see the loco does not yet have the 5-digit number on the front).
Pic #2 is a wild card for me...never seen it before. Looks like a former caboose. I would go with Bob's reply.
Sparky: I knew that I had an SBK roster somewhere and I finally found it. Apparently the SBK had two locomitves numbered 9. The first was built in 1943 by Whitcomb for the US Army. Along with sister #8 it was sold to the SBK in 1946.
This first #9 was subsequently sold to the Acme Equiptment Company in 1955.
Second #9 was also a Whitcomb built in 1943 and was bought by the SBK in 1961 from the Marshall Equiptment Company.
This unit was renumbered 20000 in 1962 and renumber back to #9 in 1966.
Information below is from the Trolley Museum of New York website
Built in 1943 by Whitcomb Locomotive Company for the U.S. Army as No. 7980, this early diesel switcher later served the Johnstown and Stoney Creek RR, the South Brooklyn Railway, the New York City Transit Authority (as #20000) and the Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority. It has two 250hp Buda diesel engines. Its cab roof and hoods were lowered for clearance in the NYC IND subways.
#9 was moved to Kingston in June, 1990. It is in running condition and performs switching duties at the Museum.
Dimensions: 39'-0" x 8'-11" x 12'-0", Weight: 138,200 lbs
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, thanks for the info. I had forgotten about the 'second' #9.
Thanks, Larry
The second #9, is the one I questioned. Didn't know there were two.
The roster originally posted in this tread, skipped either #9
in the original format, which I found peculiar, since I knew the
location of #9[2].
;-) Sparky
Was SBK #9 renumbered 20000?
Yes...I believe that Whitcomb loco is the sole motive power up at the Kingston Trolley Museum.
There were two Whitcombs. Whatever became of #8? Scrapped?
-Stef
Stef, I'll have to check my docs, but I believe it was sold off to a shortline down south IIRC. Will post the relevant info once I dig it up.
BTW, going back far enough, the line's original tag was SoBKY. It became SBK rather late in the game (around the mid 60's)
It was SBK from my earliest memory (about 1956). This was a result of standardization of railroad reporting marks (don't know that date). South Brooklyn was/is SBK because SOB was South Buffalo.
Actually, the SBK is a division of the MTA under the umbrella of NYCT.
Not much is left of this once VAST old time Brooklyn rail freight company.
Where does the PRR "Trenton Cuttoff" leave the NEC? WHat station is it nearest too?
It leaves the New York-Washington main just south of Trenton, near the yard NJ Transit is building in Morrisville (see other posts on this), and proceeds west to meet the Main Line (Harrisburg) in the vicinity of Exton-Whitford. For much of its length it parallels the Penna Turnpike on the south side of the T'pike. It was electrified at one time but is no more.
SEPTA is considering a reuse of much of it for its Cross-County Metro, which has rail as one option. If it happens it might be the only time regular passenger service operated on the Cutoff.
The Cuttoff runs virtually in a straight line from MORRIS interlocking in Morrisville PA to GLEN interlocking in Glendale PA (neat Exton and Downingtown) with a lo-grade extension built in 1902 to THORN interlocking in Throndale PA. It connects with the CSX Trenton Line at CP-WOOD and then under I-495 at the Mid-County interchange, connects with the NS Harrisburg Line at CP-KING and then crosses the Schykuyl river and then over I-76 right before the 422 interchange (PennDoT is rebuildinf the bridge there).
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on this board. Let us be thankful we are all alive and safe. God Bless.
I can taste the turkey already. ^_^
Tony Mirabella
Same to you Tony & everybody.
After all the horrible shootings in the D.C. area, we truly all should give thanks we are still here to enjoy Thanksgiving.
Chuck Greene
Alright Everyone, I got to get going also. I hope everyone enjoys their day today. Don't eat too much, enjoy your families, and be thankful for everything you have.
Happy Thanksgiving from Chicago! Now it's time to go operate my 3rd rail choo-choo!
What happen to the A Line during Rush Hour (Queens-Bound)? The person came over the PA at Hoyt and Schemerhorn and said that something happen at Jay Street.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Door problems on board an A train at Jay Street.
Ok Thanks, because I was waiting at Hoyt & Schemerhorn for about 20-25 mins and was getting pissed off, and I noticed how I saw tons of G Trains passing in both directions.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
You could have taken a G train to Carroll St, crossed over and taken an uptown F train.
Nah, I had just got the G Train at Fulton st. and took it 1 stop to Hoyt to transfer to the Queens-Bound A Line, I get off at Nostrand Ave.. That Damn A Train was worse than the 4 Line during Rush Hour on a R44, I had people trying to elbow me and shit.
-AcelaExpress2005
Reading subtalk daily had given me the impression that the birds are all but gone. Well, finally back in the city today, I got the chance to ride the 7 train. IT'S FULL OF REDBIRDS!
From the looks of it, the 7 line is more than half redbirds. Any ideas/guesses on how long this goodness will last?
I guess Salaam was right when he said the Redbirds would make their last stand on the 7. The 4 is probably not going to have Redbirds for much longer, the 5 defintely not much longer, and they are gone from the 6 and 2 lines now (man, I thought I'd never get to see that happen!). Still, lots of Redbirds on the 7, huh? I'm surprised the 7 isn't completely R62As now. How come it's taking so long for the 7 to become all R62As?
The R-142 order hasn't been completed yet. If the 3 sent its R-62A's to the 7, the 3 would have to stop running, and the 2 would become very, very crowded. You wouldn't like that, would you?
True, but I didn't say anything about the 3 sending its R62As to the 7, although that is happening now and it has much of the former Pelham R62As. I don't know how many cars the 7 needs for rush hours or how many R62As are on the 7 now. I also didn't know that sending R62As to the 7 depended on the R142 order being completed.
Just a quick note about the 3 line R 62As 5 more single cars came over to Corona monday night the car #s are 2081-2085.
part of the fun of the worlds fare is the subway special that takes you there. how many remember this jingle. the other day on metro channel the birds in their original colors seen pulling inti 111th st.
"Trains are easy to catch anywhere, anytime, night or day. Just pay 15 CENTS, hop aboard, and you're on your way"
The entire one minute commercial is on a tape I bought years ago from PBS. They had a special on the Fair.
Yep. Rode 2084 on the 7 last night. Still had evidence that it was on the 3: strip maps on the inside. Car looks and sounds horrible.
Even the 2100s with Corona Stickers look horrible-look at 2140-YUCK.
Thought I was seeing a Redbird disguised in silver when I saw this car up close.
This is probably the 3rd reason why the 7 is receiving R62As instead of R142s. Main 2 reasons: barn and failed tests.
#2084 7 Flushing Local
Of course it depends on the R-142 order being completed. The R-142(A) orders only increase the total number of cars slightly. If not all the R-142's are in, then not all of the Redbirds are out. In this case, that means the 7 will have Redbirds for a while longer. (I don't know why the 7 was chosen; the R-33's on the 2 and 5 were in better shape and IMO should have stayed in service until the end. But the point is that some Redbirds somewhere have to remain in service for now.)
Isn't the 3 line getting R142s too?
No!
The 3 will be getting R-62's from the 4, as the 4 gets R142's.
The R62a's from the 3 will be going to the 7.
Is that definite? Last I heard it was under consideration.
Personally, I'll be glad if it happens, but I wish someone would do something about the lighting on those R-62's.
I was just taking a guess .......................on da' #7.......
Yeah, I think they may last maybe one more year, as long as the R142 order is going along. I hope the sooner, the better. They are in such bad condition.
The "Redbirds" will probably remain on the "&" for the next few months. My best guess is that they might be all gone come spring or summer.
#3 West End Jeff
We know that more than half of the 7 line is still full of Redbirds, they only have what 10-11 trains of R62A's[Silverbirds] so far. The 5 is half R142/R142A, half Redbirds I believe and there are a few as well on the 4.
Probably by next year or 2 years when the full order of R142/R142A's arrive on NYCT property and are running.
The 5 has only a few Redbird trains left. The 4 had only a few to begin with, and most of them have been displaced. The 7 is now the only line where it's likely that the first train that pulls in is a Redbird train.
I got to ride one of those #4 redbirds yesterday. We pull into Utica and there it was sitting across the platform. I made it to the front ( car# 9246) and had the railfan window all the way from Utica to Mott Ave. I saw two more #4 redbirds going back downtown.
Come to think about it, the #4 now have the honor of having all A division models in its fleet. That honor previously belonged to the #6.
Not true of either. Right now the #4 has R-33 (no R-36), R-62 (no R-62A), and R-142A (no R-142) cars in its fleet. The #6 had R-29 (no R-26, R-28, R-33, or R-36) and R-62A (no R-62) cars in its fleet.
David
Towards the end I remember seeing occasional R33s on the #6 line. These cars were from the #2 (at the time I saw them) pool.
wayne
The only R-33's I know of that ran on the 6 (in recent years) were the afternoon rush 5 interlines that ended in September.
But how could we forget about the mainline R-36's so soon? They ran on the 6 until last year, did they not?
R-36s resided on the 6 for a number of years.
R-33s running on the 6 goes back beyond the Parkchester Swinger run. In the 90s and up until recent times, two trains of R-33s were exhcanged for two trains of R-62As to run in OPTO 5 service. R-26/28/29s could also be found there....
-Stef
Correct...I forgot about those. Thanks for reminding me.
Oh, and there were some Corona R-36s on the #6 at one point a few years ago.
David
Up to 2 years ago, I HAVE seen R36 WF trains, it was mixed with R29's & mainline R36's on the 6 before it was retired or it was transferred to the 7.
When the R36WF were on the #6 line they were never mixed with the R29's but with the R36ML yes they were.
I did not mean literally.......
Stevie and I would like to say happy thanksgiving and happy chanacha (i know that the spelling is a little off) to everyone who is jewish. that holiday is right after thanksgiving. be safe everyone and dont eat too much ha ha. your friend Kathy
BMdoobieW and I were on a PATH train coming into Hoboken on the leftmost track. We were commenting on the absence of a stop arm before the bumper block, when all of a sudden -- bump! It passed the test, but I have a feeling that test isn't supposed to be run with passengers on board.
On another note, the PA really needs to lighten up on photography. A T/O scolded me for taking a picture of his train (without flash, of course), and, later, two PATH employees confronted Brian because he was holding a camera.
The HBLR Hoboken extension is a nice ride. It's a bit of a hike from the main terminal, though -- is that a second platform we saw under construction a bit closer to the terminal?
Whenever people give me s*it about taking photos, I take their photo. maybe I'll go so far as to put up a webpage entiled 'idiots who like to try to infringe on peoples rights', containing said photos.
BMdoobieW and I were on a PATH train coming into Hoboken on the leftmost track. We were commenting on the absence of a stop arm before the bumper block, when all of a sudden -- bump! It passed the test, but I have a feeling that test isn't supposed to be run with passengers on board.
It was more like a smash than a bump. I think I got whiplash and I'm calling my lawyer first thing in the morning :) Anyhow, after the accident, I quickly took a photo of the scene. It came out blurry because I was rushing, but you can clearly see the PATH car pressed up against the bumper block. Here is a link to the photo: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/PATH/PDRM1095
On another note, the PA really needs to lighten up on photography. A T/O scolded me for taking a picture of his train (without flash, of course), and, later, two PATH employees confronted Brian because he was holding a camera.
This was after we had ridden the HBLR and were on our way back into Manhattan. I had not taken any photos since we entered the station. The T/O confronted me upon seeing me holding my camera, then went and got the Station Supervisor to come out and yell at me.
The HBLR Hoboken extension is a nice ride. It's a bit of a hike from the main terminal, though -- is that a second platform we saw under construction a bit closer to the terminal?
Yes, great views of the coach yard and trains coming into Hoboken. Here is a link to a photo showing the second HBLR Hoboken station shed that it is closer to the main Hoboken NJ Transit shed.
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/HBLR/PDRM1103
I hope you enjoy the photos, and I'll post a lot more that I took today after I get back to school.
---BMdoobieW
http://www.railfanwindow.com
You wonder why they yelled at you for taking pictures?????? THEN you post a picture like that???? If you had a brain in your head, You would think about what would result from your post before you go ahead and post it. Do you think this guy has a family??? Do you want to be the one responsible for getting this guy fired? They won't let you take pictures so you do this?? What are you trying to do? Get even? I have a new name for you....RAT. If I ever see you taking pictures on the subway system and doing anything at all that could interfere with the passengers or trains, I will be the first one to challenge you and call police. THINK BEFORE YOU POST.
Ok, I deleted it.
HEY! Some of us wanted to see it! Can you send it to me via e-mail? Nobody is going to get fired, its not like you posted anything identifiable about the E/R. Stop caving into message board assholes.
"Stop caving into message board assholes. "
If that was addressed to me, I am telling you now that you are messing with the wrong person.
Yes, I think we can work something out :) I wouldn't call him an asshole, I just think I set him off by putting the comment about getting yelled at in the same post as the photo. BTW, I took that photo before the PATH people yelled at us. You're right that there is nothing identifiable in the photo, so I may just put it back online at some point. Thanks for the support.
Ok..Let me ask you this. Suppose you were the train operator. It was a slip up. If I was a supervisor there I would be the first one to do something about it. But suppose nobody said a thing... Now tonight that picture is online. I know people from PATH are on this board. Suppose one of them decides to bang it in. All they have to do is find the car with scratches on the anticlimber and yellow paint. Now they have the crew (Engineer and Conductor) for not reporting it. And instead of the engineer in some trouble, They could both be on their way to the unemployment office. Getting caught in a coverup is the worst thing you can do. See where I am coming from?
Getting caught in a coverup is the worst thing you can do.
Precisely. And an employee who attempts to cover up an incident that could have caused injury to passengers and damage to equipment SHOULD be fired. Given what I know of the incident (only the information I have read on this board) I would doubt that anyone would be terminated over the incident itself, but covering it up is a far more serious offense. I hope Brian will restore the photos and write a formal letter to PATH documenting the situation with all of the information at his disposal. The logic is the same as what applies in the case of a motor vehicle accident: you don't leave the scene or let it go unreported. Doing so, in most jurisdictions, is a criminal act, and while that may not be the case here it is the logical equivalent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark, I understand your concern.
But think about it from the passenger's perspective: assuming that trains aren't supposed to be bumping into bumping blocks, a T/O was unable to keep his train under control, possibly due to faulty brakes, possibly due to the T/O's incompetence, inattention, or impairment. If the brakes were faulty (which I have reason to believe may have been the case), an investigation will reveal faulty brakes and the affected cars will be removed from service until they can be repaired. If the T/O himself was at fault, then he shouldn't get off as though nothing had happened. Although the impact this time was low-speed and didn't cause any injuries, the next impact may be at a higher speed.
Do you think the public should unknowingly be allowed to ride a train with faulty brakes or with an incompetent/inattentive/impaired T/O? I don't think so. So why should this be kept hush-hush?
And please don't accuse Brian of anything. He posted the photo but I posted the initial report. Brian, please post the photo again -- it doesn't give any new information.
I understand where you are coming from, But peep this. I'm a bus operator, the equipment gets checked on a regulard including damages, and what may very well happens is that on a inspection they'll see the anticlimber damage and paint and say wait a minute. All they have to do is pull up a past inspection with a damage report and see that it wasn't there before, that'll start the investigation. IIRC PATH checks equipment on something like a 30 day basis or something like that.
The point is that at sometime or another PATH will find out be it from thier own inspection, someone tells, someone sues from injry or the photo. It's gonna happen. So if the T/O and C/R covered it up, I tell you this much, it was the biggest mistake of thier lives and they can bank that they aren't the only ones that will catch it, the Hoboken Dispatcher will catch it too.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
You can also bet that unless someone knew that the train hit the block, it's just another rough stop, that happens once a week or so to them.
As for how often buses get checked, you have a CDL. How often do you do a full pre-trip inspection?
-Hank
I do a full pre trip inspection before I drive ANY bus be it just a 5 minute journey, and fill out a damage report too! On top of that I do reliefs!
When I get my bus I:
1) Walk the exterior of the bus checking the tires, lights windows and looking for any body damage
2) Open the engine compartment making sure nothing is loose or hanging and check under the underbody for any leaks
3) Then I check my luggage bays to make sure they are properly locked (which our bays were permenantly locked post 9/11
4) Get inside, check my roof hatches and windows.
5) Walk the interior and looking around for anything out of the norm.
This is a requirement by Coach USA, which we have to turn in a form stating we did the inspection and note any issues OR we won't get paid of the day!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
Wow, all that and you stil have time to go off route and chase down kids with eggs...amazing. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
It's called skilled driving! Read Mark-N-Ride R11's post on Bustalk, he rode with me and can contest to my driving!
Regards,
Trevor
Of course, let's completely forgive the train crew for possibly endangering passengers. It's not like he may have been tanked, or been taking a medication that reduced his alertness.
Here's a thought, the crew is not at fault in this incident, and they don't report it anyway; that same train is later involved in a more serious incident due to a mechanical defect that could have been looked at if the train crew had been less concerned about CYA disease.
-Hank
I agree with Mike, here. Please repost (or email) it. There's no reason why anyone should be covering up employee mistakes or equipment failures that are *safety* related. On a side note, given that PATH is FRA regulated, the crew's likely going to be in hot water when this is found out about, and it'll be discovered at some point.
As pointed out, the coverup is more serious than the bumpskie was. If they had just reported it and followed the book, I'd bet they'd come out fine (lots of things can cause a bump - brake failure, slide, excessive speed, etc). Covering it up? Big no no.
And yeah, if they're covering up an accident they should be tossed out.
In any case, since when was it illegal to take photos on public property? Or post pictures of accident scenes?
Ya know? I was going to stay out of this thread but so far, not a SINGLE person has suggested that perhaps the crew REPORTED the incident and DIDN'T "cover it up" and perhaps that's why the trainmaster was so bugged out about photos? Hate to break it to folks (not you, Philip, I'm just throwing my thought in here) but most crews *DO* bang themselves in and do the right thing and cooperate fully as to an investigation to find out WHY the train kissed the bumper.
What I find offensive about all this is the almost universal low opinion of transit professionals. What makes people think they'd cover it up in the first place? :(
Of course it's possible the crew reported it. That's why I don't see anything wrong with discussing the incident -- I doubt anything will come of the discussion.
If you recall, the (IMO) overly defensive poster here was Mark W., himself a transit professional. I don't have a low opinion of transit professionals, and I hope that any self-respecting transit professional would realize that running a revenue train into a bumper block and trying to cover it up is not very professional (nor wise -- there are invariably dozens of witnesses).
Not to worry, I wasn't accusing anyone of insensitivity, I was just surprised at so MANY posts just assuming the event would be covered up. Anyone who's ever operated and had an incident (I had one myself) KNOWS that you can't hide paint marks and other highly telltale signs of an "event" and there's always the lay down after the event crowd, even people who will climb ONTO a wreck so they can partake in the legal largesse.
Thus, anyone who works the rails KNOWS that they'd BETTER bang themselves in or face even WORSE consequences for failing to do so. What surprised me thusly was that nobody thought of that publicly. Equipment DOES fail, and it's not all that unusual to have brakes throughout a run, and then suddenly when you need them, they ain't there. That's what happened to me. And most also know that you DON'T have beers (or worse) during your 20+ minutes of "personal time" because you don't have to have an "event" to be snagged for that.
But no, I'm not yelling at ANYONE here, I'm just mortified that nobody appears to have EXPECTED that the crew would have gone STRAIGHT to their TMO and banged themselves in, and followed the rules to the letter. And I can't blame anyone who DOES run trains for having their opinion of "foamers" lowered down a few MORE notches as a result of the various reactions to the "event." I know I'm disappointed.
Kevin, I beg your pardon but I suggested just that. I stated that the crew was only obligated to report the incident to their supervisor and PATH was only obligated to report the incident by mail in their monthly report tot he NTSB.
Spotted yours in another thread list after I wrote the previous ... but the assumption that a crew wouldn't bang it in was surprising to say the least. I would expect YOU, and anyone else who is currently with the show to KNOW "they'll FIND you." :)
"so far, not a SINGLE person has suggested that perhaps the crew REPORTED the incident and DIDN'T "cover it up""
In defense of the people who went along with the suggestion that the crew covered this up:
- One (and only one) poster assumed the crew had covered it up, and accused the poster of the photo of being a rat.
- Then, people came to the defense of the poster of the photo. I don't think they were really saying "We're sure the crew covered it up." They were really saying (without sufficient attention to the exact phrasing of what they meant) "Well, if they did cover it up it's legit to post the picture because they'll get caught anyway, or if they don't get caught a serious safety problem may get overlooked."
A few suggested that the motorman was impaired, and most accepted the premise of a coverup without much in the way of questioning. Rest assured, those who operate rapid transit in the NYC area are all civil servants. Covering up ANYTHING results in JAIL if you get caught. Didn't mean to get anyone in a dander, I was just amazed that anyone would even consider that a crew could get away from walking away from paint stains and not get caught, if for no other reason than if you have an "event" you'd better go in, grab a pen and start writing.
Sorry if it got taken the wrong way. PATH doesn't permit photography without a permit, so in this case it wasn't a question of WHAT was being photographed ...
Only one person suggested that the T/O might be trying to cover up the incident. The rest of us responded to that hypothetical.
The photography issue was completely separate. I know that PATH doesn't generally permit photography; I was just surprised at the vigilant degree of enforcement.
They're twitchy everywhere nowadays. As my handle suggests, I'm well known to a number of CSX people who live here in town, and had always been welcomed at the Selkirk yards, in the hump tower and all. Up until the warning about "terrorists want to blow up trains." Now, NOBODY is allowed in the yards, and photography there WILL get you detained. Only reason I was able to get some buddies there a few weeks ago for some pix is because of elaborate plans and permissions made prior to the visit. And even though they KNEW we were coming, they still banged us in. The CSX police however also knew we were coming and asked the office people to verify the plates on the car and the descriptions. Given the current circumstances, I don't go NEAR Selkirk anymore.
The bedsheets are THAT wet these days ... and on PATH, it's against the rules to take pictures to begin with. Add the warnings of our bedsheet keepers on top of it, and I'm sure the PATH folks would have flipped out, bumper or no bumper incident. After all, the Port Authority has already suffered some damage ...
The bedsheets are THAT wet these days ... and on PATH, it's against the rules to take pictures to begin with. Add the warnings of our bedsheet keepers on top of it, and I'm sure the PATH folks would have flipped out, bumper or no bumper incident. After all, the Port Authority has already suffered some damage ...
Bedsheets are wet? That's sort of my line ... next thing you know, other Subtalkers will be going on about suit-covered anuses, cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons, and the baby elephant walk. Is nothing of mine sacred (sniff)?
By the way, speaking of terrorism fears, it now looks as if this latest "Osama bin Laden" audiotape had all the authenticity of a three dollar bill. Not to gloat or anything, but I had that figured out all along.
That's OK, there's all sorts of three dollar bills getting passed at the highest levels of government these days. And yeah, I also used the SCA line here and there in your honor as well. What I just can't get over is more people have been killed by ordinary drive-by shootings each individual year than by Osama (let's hope it stays that way) and yet "America" didn't dive under the bedsheets over that. Not that I'm saying we shouldn't be a compassionate country and hunt him down like a dog ... but I wonder why Americans are being punished when it was the government that fell down on the job and gave us a pretty much useless tax cut instead of spending that money on intelligence gathering, INS and some security instead.
But not to worry, we'll be all prepped up with a shiny new bureaucracy that should start protecting us in 2-5 years PLUS another tax cut. :(
>>>>...cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons, and the baby elephant walk. <<<<
Could someone please explain these references to me? I'm confused.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've known for a while (about a year or so) that PATH doesn't permit photography. Is that a long standing rule, or did that start after 9/11? When did they start this policy?
PATH's no-photo policy dates back several years at least.
um, it's called evidence. Running into a bumper block is not standard operating procedure, and if he actually did get seriously injured, taking a picture was a good idea.
As long as taking pictures isn't harming the motorman (like using flash), then as long as the motorman is doing a good job, he/she has nothing to worry about.
I was joking about the inury, as I'm sure you can tell. I will keep the photo in my private collection, and if anyone wants to see it, you can come over to my place and look at it on my computer.
BUT YOU DO NOT POST IT ON THE WEB TO OPEN A CAN OF WORMS. END OF DISCUSSION.
WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO TELL ENYONE WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT POST!!! BMDoopie should put the photo back up for all of us to see. This is a very rare event that the SubTalk community should be allowed to view.
Have to side with you. What actually troubles/suprises me is Mark's logic. IMO they borderline criminal.
Arti
It is a FREE WORLD Dude, he can tell you of his view that it shouldn't be posted. You don't have to go off and be rude about it and swear.
Now you have posted your view that he should put it back up, but I won't curse you out about it, Jerky Mike!
Hey Huckelberry,
Get out the White Wash. Lets coverup offical misconduct. Lets hide the facts from the public. Is this part of Homeland Security or Fatherland security?
avid
"Hey Huckelberry,
Get out the White Wash. Lets coverup offical misconduct. Lets hide the facts from the public"
Whoa, Avid, easy on the foam. Your post if flawed on three points.
First: The accident does not constitute official misconduct. It does constitute improper operation.
Second: We have no evidence that the crew or path was going to cover up the incident. Path was under no obligation to get out with a bullhorn and announce that the incident was going to be reported. The crew was only obligated to report it to their supervision. According to the CFR Title 49, Chapter II Parts 225 and 229, (as I understand it) unless the incident involved serious injury, extensive damage or death, PATH would not be required to immediately notify the NTSB. Such reports are routinely made monthly - in writing.
Third: You have provided no evidence that Mark W. is a Huckelberry.
Neither is the poster of the pictures under no obligation, not to post those pictures. Mark W was out of line and I'm kind of suprised you siding with him.
Arti
Arti, I'm not agreeing with Mark. I don't agree with censorship. I don't oppose photography in customer-accessible areas and I surely do not approve of cover-ups of accidents. What I am doing is disagreeing with Avid's post.
Sorry, I forgot.
Arti
>>> We have no evidence that the crew or path was going to cover up the incident. <<<
Here's hoping that the crew did report this to their supervisors. BMdoobieW was kidding about whiplash in his initial post, but who knows whether a passenger on the train will claim "serious injuries" thirty days later. The immediate report establishes how minor the damage is, and the fact that no passenger showed any indication of injury can be documented at the time, and a negative tox screen helps everyone also.
Tom
Hey Mark, you're taking photos on the street for photography class and you see someone on the street with a gun about to shoot someone. The gunman doesn't see you. Do you A) Take a picture and call 911, B) Let someone else handle this, or C) Run away like a baby to home and then call 911. If you're as smart as I thought you would be, the correct thing to do is A. In BM's case, he doesn't need to call 911, but taking a picture wasn't a bad idea. Why should something like this be kept secret. Faulty brakes need to be checked out, an intoxicated motorman needs to be fired. What's with you?
Taking pictures wasn't a bad idea. I wouldn't have put it on the net with dates and locations. I also would not have exaggerated the issue by calling it a wreck or smash. That picture doesn't display damage at all. If it had been a collision with injuries, the bumper block would look like this:
The picture was worth a thousand lies. It wasn't clear, he joked about needing a lawyer, it was a bump, then a smash. I don't object to putting up pictures on the net, I wish I had more photographers who snapped my pictures at least send me a copy, but I was particularly disgraced in my title by a railfan photographer who was taking pictures from inside a cab. Now I am just disgraced by railfans in general. I will be inclined to call in more camera wielding nuts from now on. BTW, who the heck are you to insinuate motormen are intoxicated? Whats with you?
Is that third rail shoe broken?
-Hank
What's with me? Let's see, Willy B accident is what's with me, Union Square Wreck is what's with me. No no, let em go.
Now I am just disgraced by railfans in general. I will be inclined to call in more camera wielding nuts from now on.
And I will be inclined to call the ACLU - cite the LAW that says that I cannot take pictures in the subway - in fact it says quite the opposite!!!
"Grounded Shoe Beam" doesn't work for NYCT, where photography in public areas for personal purposes and without using flashes, tripods, etc. is legal, anymore. He works for PATH, where photography is prohibited except when permission is obtained from PATH.
David
I will be inclined to call in more camera wielding nuts from now on. BTW, who the heck are you to insinuate motormen are intoxicated?
In the same way that the previous poster incorrectly assumes that motormen are intoxicated, why do you incorrectly assume that people (who take pictures of trains) with cameras are nuts?
How does anyone know if the PATH incident was reported properly? Maybe it was. None of us know.
--Mark
Looks like a derailment alright, but where's the shot of the damaged bumper block????
You mean to tell me that you never took a photo of a crash, smash or something so totally bazaar and didn't show it off?
All I have to say is America is the land of the free and Doobie is free to do as he pleases. If the press was down on the platform that day the picture would've definately been in the paper, so are you gonna scold newspapers and on-line newspapers for posting photos of the sort because that is the next step.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
I took a photo of Ceasar's Bazaar. Does that count?
On the other hand, I also took a picture of a one-legged pigeon. That was bizarre.
-Hank
I took a photo of Ceasar's Bazaar. Does that count?
Oh GAWD :) Isn't Caesar's Bay Bazaar in Staten Island now?
--Mark
Yeah, but they just call it 'Ceasar's Bazaar'. It's still a bunch of crap huts. They do have a decent food court, however.
-Hank
I can see this thread winding up on the chopping block.
-Stef
Sir, The truth will free us all. Dumping on a fellow citizen for disclosing such an incident is counter to what I most treasure about this country.
As to the 'presumed code of silence', a total perversion of worker solidarity IMHO, as one of their 'citizen/taxpayer/employers' I am angry but sadly not surprised.
You wonder why they yelled at you for taking pictures?????? THEN you post a picture like that???? If you had a brain in your head, You would think about what would result from your post before you go ahead and post it. Do you think this guy has a family??? Do you want to be the one responsible for getting this guy fired? They won't let you take pictures so you do this?? What are you trying to do? Get even? I have a new name for you....RAT. If I ever see you taking pictures on the subway system and doing anything at all that could interfere with the passengers or trains, I will be the first one to challenge you and call police. THINK BEFORE YOU POST.
Well duuuh, if the T/O hadn't banged into the bumper block, he'd have no reason to be worried about a picture, would he?
I reposted the photo at its orignal location.
Thanks to everyone who posted their opinions on this issue. Mark W. emailed me after he posted his first comment. Don't get all mad at him, he probably just got really excited when he saw he photo and posted his first thoughts. I hope that he will consider trying to control his gut reactions, and that all of you that responded to his post will try to control yours as well. That will make for a much happier place. As for me, I will try not to exaggerate the circumstances of my photos and say things that could be inflammatory. I really enjoy posting here on SubTalk and being able to share my photos will everyone.
Have a happy thanksgiving!
---Brian
http://www.railfanwindow.com
Sorry for hijacking and ruining your thread :(
On another note, the PA really needs to lighten up on photography. A T/O scolded me for taking a picture of his train (without flash, of course), and, later, two PATH employees confronted Brian because he was holding a camera.
Unlike the NYC subway, photography is not allowed on the PATH. (One reason I'm left with no photos of the WTC PATH station.)
I took photos in 9/2001 without any trouble. Unfortunately, I was not aware that the WTC would be destroyed a week after I was there, so I didn't get pictures of that station.
In case you haven't seen it, I have one blurry photo here:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/PATH/path009
---Brian
>>> I have one blurry photo here: <<<
An understatement.
Tom
Hey, this when i just got my first digital camera and it was an "all automatic" one so I couldn't help it. But it is better than having no picture. I haven't really seen any extensive photos of the former WTC Path station. Have you seen any?
I took this one in August 1992. What an innocent time-the first attack was still a few months away......
Nice. That station was so dark and creepy. I don't know why they kept it so dark.
[On another note, the PA really needs to lighten up on photography. A T/O scolded me for taking a picture of his train (without flash, of course), and, later, two PATH employees confronted Brian because he was holding a camera.]
They don't mind people SEEING the stations and trains, but not PHOTOGRAPHING them.
Hmmm... That just begs the question: If the trains and stations are such a big secret, then WHY ARE PASSENGERS ALLOWED INSIDE?
I think you've just solved the lifelong problem of how to alleviate rush hour crowds.
Yeah, but the guy, if I remember the story correctly, only got mad at him because he was taking pictures of the train AFTER the train "smashed" into the bumoper block...which is like taking a photo at the scene of a crime or accident, or while there's a pending investigation going on...and I think that is strongly discouraged if not against the law...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
"which is like taking a photo at the scene of a crime or accident, or while there's a pending investigation going on...and I think that is strongly discouraged if not against the law..."
There is nothing in the least bit against the law about taking a picture of an accident or a crime scene, as long as you are not trespassing or going somewhere the police have put off limits as part of their investigation. It is strongly discouraged by people who might have a stake in certain evidence not being documented. It may also be discouraged by people who have sympathy for the victims of the crime or accident.
(Note: I am not saying that was the case here; I believe the complaints about the camera were in a different place anyway).
Oh Puh-lease. You mean to tell me that you wouldn't take a random photo of a scene if it wasn't in front of you.
THAT'S TRUE JOURNALISM!
To me, you couldn't be a real journalistic photographer until you shoot a scene that is just so off the wall. Personally I consider my website and several other to be a source of journalism and if you just show pictures of a bus/train/plane/ferry or whatever just there not doing anything but just there, then it's just a "site" with photos.
In Photography you need backgrounds, color, life, death, wierd angles, just off the wall stuff that'll make people come back for more. Personally that's how I do photography, granted all of us have our basic shots of our hobby, but to really make things pop out you have to shoot the not-so-ordinary.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
Well, I wouldn't if there were any officials right there, if there was no one lurking and staring me down, I would...hey, that's just me...I don't like to grab pics (or do ANYTHING for that matter) if anyone was sitting there staring me down or threatening to get me into trouble...
For me, I like to get shots that are nice and clean-cut shows the front and side of my subject as clearly as I can, NOTHING in the way, no cars, poles, structures, people, etc. THOUGH I do like background once in a while...accident scenes....depends on who is there...if it's people I know or enthusiasts, I feel more comfortable with taking the photograph...if it's transit employees I don't know or police or investigators, then I just back away...then again, that's just me...
I won't take any risk where I would potentially wind up someplace I don't wish to be...unless I feel I got something good out of it...that is part of the reason I don't have any weird-angle or exclusive shots in my photo albums...
And that's the end of that chapter...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Chapter re-opened..............
I guess that's you, but my post was a general statement post so don't take it personally!
Again if its you its you, but you know the saying, No Guts No Glory!
Regards,
TLJ
Oh, just to let you know...I didn't really take it too personally...I understood it as a general post...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
(Closing the Chapter again...lol)
Besides, it's not too often where I actually spot the not-so-ordinary, whether I look for it or not...maybe I just don't have the best of luck...eh, oh, very well! Off to another day in the life of Cleanairbus...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
(Just don't give a damn sometimes...hehe)
Amen! You summed it up.
Yes, AMEN to that!
--Brian
>>> They don't mind people SEEING the stations and trains, but not PHOTOGRAPHING them. <<<
They are probably sensitive to litigation, and don't want any pictures which could be used against them.
A few years ago, I was trying to videotape a dying person (with her consent) in a hospital hooked up to several IVs, a breathing machine, and monitors to document what she was going through before she died, and a nurse seeing me taping the scene insisted I stop taping, and advised me of a rule against taping within the hospital. Although this tape was being made for a malpractice case against a previous doctor and HMO, the hospital was worried that something might be recorded that could be interpreted as below prevailing standards.
Tom
With all the shock and eruption of arguments and flames about photography, coverups and intoxication, it seems, believe it or not, that that move might be legal!
When I went to see then new Airtrain extension and station on the NEC, I went out on PATH and changed at Journal Sq. (wish they kept the 33st trains running to Newark weekends!)
There are layup tracks nearby, and all the trains were touching the bumping blocks! I was so surprised, as we know, in TA, we cannot come anywhere near the blocks, and even hitting the tripper is treated as a "collision". But apparently, it is allowed on PATH. Maybe he did it too hard with passangers, but just as you can make an add OK (from 1 foot away, Point on, point off, or roll if the grade is down), there is no reason you couldn't similarly "add" to a bumper.
Hi everyone, I was on a Manhattan bound A train consisting of an 8 car set of R44's today and noticed a group of loud and unruly teens walking from car to car using the end doors of the train. I was in the 6th car, 5375, and observed the group of kids coming from the 4th car and walking all the way back to the 8th car. I thought all 75ft car end doors were supposed to be locked due to safety reasons. Does anyone know why this trainset's doors were unlocked? Or are all R44 end doors unlocked now? I also tranferred to a Queens bound G of R46's at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the end doors were locked on those (at least on the car I was in, didn't notice the car # though). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.
That's nothing new, teens like myself know how to unlock the storm doors.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
And let a conductor like myself catch you unlocking storm doors on my train.
I don't unlock the storm doors, but I do know how to though, and besides you conductors stay in the cab.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
The R44s have a light on the outside that illuminates when an end door is open. Also, I am sure Mark or whoever the conductor is will leave his cab when you become a 12-9 victim. If you have a real desire to switch cars, especially on the R44s and R46s, wait until the train stops at a station and run to the next car before the doors close.
Now I never go through the Storm doors, because I aint stupid. I see teens go through the storm doors every week, and I also see the chinese people going through the doors.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Those Asian "one dollar" vendors seem to know the storm door trick. I've seen them use hard plastic cards to unlatch the doors....even seen them on occasion with a KEY to unlock the doors (how they got those is anyone's guess).
I remember seeing TA employees going through the storm doors, off-duty, they had the key and was just going through, And them chinese people are pros.
-AcelaExpress2005
Chances are the battery dewds have family back home in the crew key manufacturing plant. :)
>>Chances are the battery dewds have family back home in the crew key manufacturing plant.<<
....that also doubles as a AA battery manufacturing plant .
Recently I was on a (D) train. This peddler (not Asian) was selling batteries carrying a small but heavy box on his shoulder. A commuter asked "are they Duracells ?". The peddler said "no" and the commuter said nothing, so no sale. Did he expect to get Duracells at that cheap price ? Maybe they made at the same plant that makes those storm door keys !!
Speaking of peddlers and street peddlers at that. There was something on the news a while back about street peddlers selling video tapes of movies still running in theatres. The quality, shall you say sucked big time. The illegal tapes were copies from a master that was taped with a hand held camcorder !! And some people were dumb enough to buy them. Phineas T. Barnum, where are you now that we need you !
Bill "Newkirk"
Nah, the all time gibbone award has to go to those people that buy $50.00 DVD's and TV's on the sidewalk and then get it home to unwrap the BRICK. It's like the old internet addage, if it sounds too good to be true, I can get it for you at half price. :)
Ever look at the packaging of those batteries, some are US packaging so they stole em. Some are packaged for sale outside the US and came back on the "grey" market.
Never bought subway batteries, never saw those guys. No surprise though, my bet is all those bricks being passed off as stereo systems in the coming weeks will also be stolen. :)
>>Nah, the all time gibbone award has to go to those people that buy $50.00 DVD's and TV's on the sidewalk and then get it home to unwrap the BRICK.<<
Yep, that was on Channel 7 this past week. They had undercover reporters disguised as street hawkers selling "new" imposssibly cheap electronic goods that were still in shrink wrap as the convincer. They didn't really sell it to them, but did try to sucker some unsuspecting dope from parting with $50 for a box with newspapers and a brick by hidden camera! When they opened the box in front of the "mark", they were surprised that they were almost been had.
A lesson to the unwise, beware of propietors whose store is a concrete sidewalk or a moving subway train !!
"Bill Newkirk"
It's an old scam actually ... further reason to shake that gift, and if it sounds like there's a brick falling around in the box, then you've been hosed. :)
Beware also if the corner of the box is ripped so that you can "see" the TV screen. You might be buying a used picture tube instead of a brick.
Never ceases to amuse me how scammers like that at worst get a year in the pokey, while if you have stockholders, you get invited for brunch. :(
And if you think of it, a year in the pokey can be like a vacation. A place to sleep at night, 3 meals a day and daily work outs in a weight room.
And in YOUR room. :)
It would be like my own room if I shared the room with several "brothers" who thought I was a "sister".
Heh. The old token booths had bars too ya know? :)
And sometimes they kept people locked in than locked out.
Heh. All part of that civil service sentence, 25/55 for good behavior. Only problem was the old wooden jobbies were cumbustible. :(
Hey! But what if you want that lone brick for Christmas....you know like the guy whose one brick short of finishing the chimney... LOL!!!
Heh. Well then ... we know what YOU'RE getting for Kissmoose. :)
Would you like that wrapped? Want fries with that?
LOL!
Hehe, we always knew that you were one brick short of a load. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't get how people actually believe that a DVD player or a stereo or other electronics that ARE name brand could sell for $50, that's just dumb but hey they could have lost more $$ than $50. How about the Lotto ticket scam, now thats just common sense who is silly enough to give away a winning ticket :-\.
Sounds like "Let's Make A Deal".
I know right ;-), just real silly that someone thinks that a stranger would give a "winning" lotto ticket claiming that he/she is not a US citizen or whatever, come on that's real hilarious.
>>> I don't get how people actually believe that a DVD player or a stereo or other electronics that ARE name brand could sell for $50, that's just dumb <<<
Your statement is naive. The con man's art is getting people to believe the unbelievable whether it is a Ponzi or pigeon drop. Usually the offer of the name brand with the low price comes with the innuendo that the merchandise fell off a truck somewhere and that is why it is so cheap. It has been said that you cannot con an honest man, and for the con to work, the mark must have a certain amount of larceny in his heart.
Tom
Ok, we are way off topic but that questions been answered so what the heck.... Once again, common sense should tell you that you are NOT going to get a namebrand DVD or other electronics for $50! You know what people should do with the brick...take it, hold it and smash it on their foreheads for being dumb enough to be duped into dumb shit like that.
I never buy these "subway accessories" b/c they look cheap & one small mistake will destroy it, like the toys they be selling. Never bought the chocolate, and the Duracell-wannabe batteries, like Plenticell & Powercell. Once, this guy was selling 24 PLENTICELL batteries for the grand total of $1, thats right $1 now thats too good to be true! They probably used the batteries before they sold it to people :o).
Heh. Can't say I'd argue. But then again, if folks had common sense, there'd be no spam email (because nobody would answer it) and the subway horkers would be gone because nobody would buy any of it, and perhaps we might have a different outcome of the elections too. :)
Yeah, I can't believe Doomberg & Paturkey [he's cool on some things though] even got elected and look at what they're doing, how much people is kicking their own asses for voting for them, now they gettin screwed over. Its important to vote but sometimes, I feel like voting for politicians is a waste of time.
Well, thats how dysfunctional things keeps on rolling through like the spam e-mail, the subway merchants & the lotto ticket scam artists. Basically, the people who fall for silly/faulty things needs to gain common sense.
Speaking of peddlers and street peddlers at that. There was something on the news a while back about street peddlers selling video tapes of movies still running in theatres. The quality, shall you say sucked big time. The illegal tapes were copies from a master that was taped with a hand held camcorder !! And some people were dumb enough to buy them. Phineas T. Barnum, where are you now that we need you !
I see them on the corner of Varick and Houston at least two or three afternoons a week. Looks like the same people each time, too.
Also heard that some videos will be BLANK or turn out to be other than what's on the box (like a porno!).
How u know about that? Now we know how u spend your weekends....
Wiseguy...happenned to a friend...not me personally.
happenned to a friend...not me personally.
Sure, that's what they all say.... :)
Urban legends.
Gee BMTMan you don't know how people who do not work for the TA can get keys??
Come on man, I can't believe you said that, jingle jingle...
Usually when I'm on the trains, I see the Chinese Battery Sellers. They have this little device that allows them to open doors. Not a key. But a 2 prong metal "fork" that they use to pry the storm door open.
Transit has words for those liek you-- Organ DOnors!
Seriously, the doors are locked for a reason. If a person goes between cars and a curve comes up then we have crushed person.
Sure- you might know how to get through but you might face an undercover or unbiformed cop or Transit worker who can call the police.
I understand that many of today's youths like to take chances and disregard authority.
Let me ask you this question: Could myself or another adult coem to your house (or apartment) and throw your TV through your closed windows or perhaps we can carve initials into your walls or windows. Maybe we can....
I hear you protesting " of course not" Right- same way we have rules. As i have explained to others-- in any organzied society rules are set up for the benefit of the society as a whole. If you disliek authority find an empty island and start your own society. ps- we'll ask where it is so we can break your rules.
I wonder of all the people who have lost their lives or limbs falling while going from car to car, how many of them said to themselves:
"It won't happen to me!"
Actually they were NEVER locked. They just came right to the door, pulled the handle, it opened and they passed through.
They were locked, when they pass through they unlock it, its not that easy, it looks as if they just open the storm doors easily.
One panel had to be unlocked. They walk through that and then hit the switch to unlock the other. Easy.
Very interesting. I'm not surprised that some people have figured out how to defeat the locks on the storm dors of the 75' cars. It is simply the first time that I've found out about it on Sub Talk.
#3 West End Jeff
You have now pointed the discipline gun at a transit employee and now expect us to load the gun for you.
While no one here is in favor of bad employees please remember that you are guilty until innocent in RTO.
A recent example is a new train operator was suspended pending termination for an off duty drunken brawl. Unfortuantely even when the person recanted (they were thrown out of a bar and this was their revenge) the employee STILL had to take discipline. PS he was present at another TO's incident as a passenger and was almost thrown out for that.
There is at least one legitimate reason for the those doors to be open that is not the fault of the crew BUT it likely does not matter. You have all but fingered them.
Do you now understand why many hourly employees no longer post explanations to you people? You have little appreciation and seem to take complete joy in putting peoples jobs in jeopardy right before the holidays without knowing the full story.
Look, all I wanted to know was if those doors were supposed to be locked or not. I wasn't pointing fingers at any particular employee or trying to get anyone in trouble. It could have been possible that someone besides the crew unlocked those doors if they indeed were supposed to be locked (and I sense they WERE supposed to be locked by the tone of your reply). Since this is a message board for discussion, I just thought I would point that out. And perhaps the crew should check those doors more often to see if they're locked to be on the safe side.
Crews sometimes get ordered to do things that are not kosher. Some crazy TD's make every request do this or your job is one the line.
If you say no you are screwed if you say yes and something happens you should have known better.
If you simply wanted to know you did not have to give a line or car number.
You said they started in car 4 and went to car 8. How did the get past the conductor?
I've seen the rubber moulding near the latch mechenism cut away on many R/44s. It should be repalced with a material that is not so easily vandalised. Does the cost expended on a car as old as the R/44s warrent spending. No! Not until a surfer rides the steel curve!
The MTA has shifted responsibility from maintainence to C/R and T/Os for the secure storm doors.
avid
The rubber molding won't be replaced with something more vandel resistant until something happens to someone.
It can't be repalced due to safety concearns. if there is an emergency passengers are suposted to be able to knock out the glass on the end doors and then flip the outside unlock switch.
UMM...he's talking about the rubber molding near the latch not the molding around the window.
Peace,
ANDEE
I meant the 5th car. I can't do math :P
That's strange but it was open since there are people who know how to pick the lock. Usually, they only open on the outside but on R46's on the E they are unlocked most of the time.
What is so dangerous about passing through trsin cars?
i do it every day on the lirr.
With the turns on the subway, a person walking between 75 foot cars could get crushed if they were passing between cars at the wrong time (on one of those curves). SO yes it is dangerous on the 75 foot cars. The same problem does not exist on the LIRR.
There's another hazard -- electric shock from the couplers as they carry third rail current. Unlike the H2 type couplers, the 44/46 cars have their electric contacts in a different position (allowing for the possibility of contact if someone is careless).
Tough to get your leg down there for zapping without falling victim to the whole crushing/falling thing first.
The triple curves south of City Hall / B'way are the #1 culprit, if I remember. "S"'s are where the swing gets really acute.
I'll leave it to a pro like you, Dave. I'm just 'armchair NYCT'. :)
"There's another hazard -- electric shock from the couplers as they carry third rail current. "
Nope. No coupler on any piece of modern car equipment at the TA carries third rail current.
Actually, I didn't mean the 600 Vt coming through the rail, just enough voltage to make ya a crispy critter...
Feh, 36 volts is just a waker-upper until the caffeine kicks in. Now if we get around to getting the HiV back up and running again, THERE'S something that'll perk ya up when you grab the controller. :P
>>> 36 volts is just a waker-upper until the caffeine kicks in <<<
Don't forget, it's the current that counts. I have seen a 24 volt truck battery circuit put a near fatal hurtin' on someone who got careless.
Tom
Has to do really with the effective electrical resistance through the body. If you're sweaty, it'll hurt ... if it passes through the body cavity rather then the fingers, it'll kill. But 600 volts, it ain't. Now THAT's some serious wake up and die juice. I knew a number of electricians who would lick their fingers and then touch their way through fuseboxes to find the open fuse. Some folks who work with electrical stuff daily are just plain nuts. I'm one of them. :)
i do it every day on the lirr.
The LIRR is build differently, and does not have the sharp curves that NYCT has. The issue isnt so much as being crushed, the doors do not get any closer together than when the train is runnng on a straight section of track. But in going over switching, one car is going one way while the other another. If you had your foot on one car, and your hand on the grab bar of the other, you could be yanked from the footplate, and fall to the tracks below where the wheels would eat you for dinner, and leave a gooey chopped mess on the tracks behind the train. If a lady with a baby in a perambulator were trying to transit the gap.... Well, MTA just doesn't want to take the risk.
LIRR has even longer cars, but I suspect that the trucks are closer to the ends of the cars than they are on the subway and so these movements do not occur. NYCT seems to have the trucks set back a little from the ends of the cars, (in order to negeotiate tight curves without the middle of the car crunching into the walls or pillars~ which is also not a good thing) causing greater overswings at the ends of the car.
All of life is a compromise. If you want to compromise with your life, that is your affair.
Elias
>>> If a lady with a baby in a perambulator were trying to transit the gap <<<
A perambulator? C'mon, prams went out with seams on nylons. Any remaining examples would be too valuable to take on the subway. Now everyone uses strollers.
Tom
A perambulator? ... Now everyone uses strollers.
Tell that to my daughters. The older one had a (new) pram for her two boys and it's now tucked away in my attic awaiting possible use by my younger daughter someday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Umm...this is NOT the LIRR, where there aren't as much curves as in the NYC subway system plus due to the overhang on turns in the 75' cars, lets say it makes a sharp turn, someone can fall to the tracks very easily plus there are other factors so thats why its locked.
**This message is hypothetical only and is not official info and will not be forwarded.***
Which current local stations woudl you convert into an express station and which exptress stations would you make local only (by having express trains run trhough without stopping). Why?
1- Local to Express
IRT 1/2/3/9-- 59th Street due to IND A/B/C/D. Easy connection to 6Av. I know they'd have to move tracks (could it be done due to the IND tracks) or go under the IND by ramping down after 42nd street and baCK Up in time for 72 street (Could that be done). I know we are broke but this is fantasy nad in our dream world we have) the money.
14/6av-- Connection to L train. Suypposedly there is already a provision to allow conversion to Express. I think (Please correct me if I am wrong) the 6av express is under the L ?
74/Roosevelt on the 7-- Transfer to the IND.
2- Express to Local
None
4th Avenue/9th Street (Brooklyn) - convert it to express. To those who'd complain that there are too many express stops on the 4th Avenue corridor, I'd suggest changing the 36th Street stop to local. Hence for southbound W's, the next stop after 9th St. would be 9th Avenue.
How about relocating the express stop on the Concourse Line from Tremont Ave to 161st-River Ave (Yankee Stadium)?
Local to Express:
E,F,G,R,V at Woodhaven Blvd. Wasn't it originally intended as an express station, or at least to be convertible to express?
Yes, I remember reading that there was a provision built into Woodhaven that would have allowed conversion to an express station. I don't know exactly what that provision is.
That provision (I was told) is that these are really ISLAND Platforms with another track on the outside of what looks like the side walls.
If they wanted to make the station an express stop, they would knock down this wall, and connect the tracks to the local track, and make crossings for the express to move to the existing local platform. The existing express tracks would remain alaDeKalb Avenue, as a through Express Track.
This is what I have heard, you own ears may hear things differently.
Elias
This is what I have heard, you own ears may hear things differently.
Your guess is as good as mine. I only heard that there was a "provision" to make Woodhaven an express station.
What that means, I have no idea. Are you implying that the trackway is already built on the other side of the wall, similar to Lexington/63rd? Well that is an actual track (and half of platform too), not just a trackway.
Are you implying that the trackway is already built on the other side of the wall, similar to...
Yes, that is my understanding. And that understanding was acquired here, so you may take it with whatever salt and/or pepper you may wish.
Elias
The only thing I saw were turnouts-turnins for the local tracks to go around the current platform. IIRC, if there is/was a space behind the side walls part of that space is already being used for the token booth areas.
There is a provision at Woodhaven Blvd so that it would be an express station. Going into the station the local tracks would have gone behind the side platforms there now. Then the platform would be extended over the current local tracks so that express trains could make a station stop.
What about 33rd street on the Lexington?
What for?
"(Please correct me if I am wrong) the 6av express is under the L ?"
You are correct. There's certainly no room for it above the L, with the PATH being one level down, the V/F two levels down, and the L 3 levels down.
What itinerary would benefit from having the B and D stop here?
If you're taking the L in from Brooklyn, you can change at Union Square for MB trains to Dekalb and S Brooklyn, and at 8th Ave for trains to CPW. Post 2004, the only destinations that are likely to benefit would be on the Grand Concourse and West End lines. Is it worth making everyone else who rides a B or D stop at one extra station just for that?
There's certainly no room for it above the L, with the PATH being one level down, the V/F two levels down
IINM the 6th Av Local and the PATH platforms are on the same level, but divided from eachother by a wall which was to be removed if the IND ever "recaptured" PATH.
When the IND was being built in the late 1930's, the idea was to capture the PATH line for IND express service. However with the PATH cars being roughly the same size as the IRT cars it was deemed too expensive to change the tunnels. So they left the PATH there. It wasn't until 1968 that express service was built. With the express tracks going under the PATH line.
"IINM the 6th Av Local and the PATH platforms are on the same level, but divided from eachother by a wall"
This has been claimed numerous times on this site but is simply not true at 14th St. I have counted steps. The PATH is about 30 steps down and the F train about 50 steps down. I posted the details here about 6 months ago.
The proof can easily (if you live in NYC, at least) be seen by going down the steps to the uptown PATH platform at 14th St. You walk downstairs, then head west OVER the F tracks, then down maybe 4 more steps to the PATH pltform.
Both are right and both are wrong, All that is true is not that true.
The (F) and the (P) [PATH] : )
are on the 'upper' level, but the (F) sort of tucked under the (P) somewhat. The track alighments (horizontally) are waht one might expect from a four track line, but the vertical separations while present, are not as much as would be needed if the (F) were actually under the (P)
Why the F anybody would want to be under the P is another issue best left to a different sort of forum.
Disclaimer: Thus it seemed to me although the verasity of such contentions are not vouched for.
Elias
"the vertical separations while present, are not as much as would be needed if the (F) were actually under the (P)"
You are correct. As I said, the P is about 30 steps down and the F is about 50. The 20 steps difference is not enough clearance for one train to be under another. It's always at least 25 steps.
The 20 steps are enough difference that there is no way one could ever have a platform serving both PATH and F, though.
Happy Thanksgiving From The TransiTALK Family
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
And a Happy Thanksgiving to you too and all Subtalkers from:
WWW.BMT-Lines.com
Right back at ya, bro...
Cleanairbus
I think every SUBtalk poster can learn a thing or two by clicking below. 8-)
THE ONIONS GUIDE TO MESSAGE BOARD SHORTHAND
Peace,
ANDEE
BUMP
We already have one active thread about bumps. No need for another.
LOL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Peace,
ANDE
ROTHLMAOKTC!!
I dont get it, only one Train goes to State street, so what was the MTA's purpose of extending the New Haven line by one stop? Is this some attemp to get the MNR to Mastic Conneticut?
I took a little trip today to scope out recent construction of the South Jersey Light Rail and CP-HATCH / CP-JERSEY in Delair NJ. First, the new CP-HATCH interlocking is looking pretty spiffy. For those of you who don't know the layout, on the south end are 2 freight tracks and one light rail track. On the north end, from west to east are the Fishhouse Branch, the Bordentown Sec / Light Rail and the palmyra industrial track. It is basically going to work like this. Light rail trains will come in from the north, diverge from the Bordentown Sec, run over a diamond crossing with the Palmyra Ind then continue along its merry way on the east side of the now 3 track RoW. This is actually a seperate intelrocking from CP-HATCH and at the northern CP-HATCH home signals are the southern home signals for this light rail crossover interlocking. There are two power operated wedge style de-rails on the Palmyra industrial and a power operated movable rail de-rail on the Conrail freight access to the light rail line.
As you all know, CP-HATCH was receltly defiled with Safetran dwarf signals and GRS Model 5 electric switches. Today I found that there was some good news. While the new rail line will use SafeTran traffic light signals, they are also using US&S M3 dual-control electric switches, which are of the highest quality. The light rail line is also using the protective rust sheetmetal, "CorTen", for their Relay huts. Another classy move. One last piece of good news for CP-HATCH was that Conrail style blue and white reflective "HATCH" signs have been put on the relay huts. Previously the intelrocking had no signs. It seems that NS and CSX really like the old Conrail colour combination.
Some disappointing devolopments at CP-JERSEY. While both its old PRR signals are still up, the last pneumatic switch has been repalced with an electric GRS Model 5. The A-5 switch cover and CP value stand were piled next to the relay hut. Also, like CP-HATCH, JERSEY has had a microwave link installed, as the light rail project necessitated the demolition of the direct wire pole-line. There is a little dish antenna right about the signal on the fishhouse branch on a former catenary tower. One more devolopment, there has been installed a CCTV camera pointing at the bridgetender's car enclosure and he'll start yelling at you over a PA system. If you stay on the north side of the relay sheds you will be out of the camera's LoS and can safely photograph whatever comes by.
Last big of really good news for the SJLR. In addition to US&S switches and CorTen sheds, they have installed PRR style handrails on all of their rehabilitated bridges, including the one over Crosswicks Creek in Bordentown. Its really a blast from the past and quite cool.
Overall, the LR line is nearly done interms of line construction. All of the crossing gates are up, the line has been upgraded with CWR and in many places, concrete ties. There are frequent passing sidings with the added tracks always having concrete ties and there are signals everywhere, even if they are of the traffic light type. Bordentown affords another new railfan location with a big new parking lot at the apex of the old PRR Jct where B tower used to be. It puts you right in the middle of the action and you don't even need to get out of your car.
To Chuchubob: Would the chapter be interestedi n any of my photographs I took today? If so what should I do?
SJLR-first I've heard of it! Sounds good. Where does it go, and what kind of LRVs will it use? Just curious.
wayne
Wayne, this is the Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System (SNJLRTS) that chuchbob has been talking about on and off for months if not years. It's the Diesel Multiple Unit light rail system that will run for 34 miles from Trenton to Camden. Info is available on the NJ Transit website or search for chuchbob's posts... you'll find lots of pictures that he's taken.
Until nex time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here are my most recent SNJLRTS photos. Webshots seems to be having a problem and many of my photos give a message that they're not there any more.
Do the various chapter publications accept images in digital format or are they still all slide based. You really need to get an LCD projector out to meetings. Its the wave of the future!
How long are station platforms? Can they handle 10-cars? Also what is the daily ridership of the railway?
Most station platforms are about 400'-500'[maybe less] since there are some 6-car trains in the rush hour but they usually run 4 car trains and no, they can't handle 10 car trains. Some stations like Nassau & Richmond Valley can handle no more than 2 train cars, they only stop there at the passenger's request and the C/R opens a door of 1 car with his/her key and the stations are in HORRID shape. As for ridership numbers, I don't know the answer.
There was a whole station lenghting program so they could platfrom 4 cars, before that they had to lock out the 2 of the four doors on the end cars. This was done back in the late 80's and then there was talk of five cars with locking some doors once all the platforms were extended.
Only 4 car train sets are run now during rush hour.
Some stations like Nassau & Richmond Valley can handle no more than 2 train cars, they only stop there at the passenger's request
What do you do if you want to get on at one of those stations? Flag the train down and yell "Taxi"?
Some stations like Nassau & Richmond Valley can handle no more than 2 train cars, they only stop there at the passenger's request
What do you do if you want to get on at one of those stations? Flag the train down and yell "Taxi"?
I believe the trains stop if the operators see anyone waiting on the (very short) platforms.
They are listed as flag stops in the passanger (customer) timetable with a note stating you have to tell the train crew you want to stop at those stations. They key you off through one door most of the time.
There are a few trains during morning rush that used to list Tomkinsville as a flag stop as well, I don't know if they do that anymore.
No, the passenger would tell the C/R that they want to get off at the stop, those two stations are 'flag' stations. Well if someone is waiting there, of course the T/O is going to stop.
Here are my all time favorite subway car/station ads.
Humor: Ad for roach killer: A woman says, "There are even roaches in my ice cubes."
Humor (in a corridor of a midtown station): You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's) ; That is an ad for Jewish rye bread, and it shows certain non-Jewish ethnics eating Levy's. An Indian with braided locks in one, A black guy with full afro-hair and another a Chinese guy in a Mao-type uniform is loving Levy's Jewish Rye.
Serious: Take the trains that you missed; shows a Type-D triplex (museum train) about to cross Jamaica Bay to Rockaway; an ad for the Transit Museum.
Serious: The Best Music on WABC; shows Chuck Leonard ( a super cool deejay) holding a gold LP that says Musicradio WABC. (I loved to listen to WABC. )
Honorable mention: Billboard in Center City Philadelphia:
A woman holding a briefcase which is a miniature PATCO high speed "subway" car. She is crossing a street. The sign reads," Take a train to work."
What are your all time favorite subway ads?
>>>>Humor (in a corridor of a midtown station): You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's) ; That is an ad for Jewish rye bread, and it shows certain non-Jewish ethnics eating Levy's. An Indian with braided locks in one, A black guy with full afro-hair and another a Chinese guy in a Mao-type uniform is loving Levy's Jewish Rye.<<<<
One of my personal all time favorites. Thank You for recounting it so accurately.
>>>>Serious: Take the trains that you missed; shows a Type-D triplex (museum train) about to cross Jamaica Bay to Rockaway; an ad for the Transit Museum.<<<<
I own one of these posters.
Peace,
ANDEE
My favorite subway ads were from the late-80's. The NYCTA ran a very vigorous ad campaign on TV, on subway ads, etc. It's slogan was (type-written like typed on a typewriter):
THE SUBWAY. WE'RE COMING BACK SO YOU COME BACK.
That is written erratically across each ad (or would be typewriter sounded out in the TV commercials). It had various photos of what they were doing to improve the system at the time.
I have five of them. They are great. Each one has the main slogan from above (There were many more).
The ones I have:
-Photo of two older women talking at Woodside station:(in typewriter lettering)
"They're fixing the tracks here."
"They repaired the tracks."
"Yes. I agree with her."
FACT: Since 1982, 431 miles of subway track has been repaired or replaced.
THE SUBWAY. WE'RE COMING BACK SO YOU COME BACK.
-Photo of a train operator in front of an R68.
"It's definitely not perfect. We still have a long way to go. But we're getting there."
FACT: In 1992, the entire fleet will be new or rebuilt.
THE SUBWAY. WE'RE COMING BACK SO YOU COME BACK.
-Photo of a man in front of a blurred R40.
FACT: Today the average train can travel 25,555 miles without a breakdown.
"People notice when something gets worse. But I've actually noticed that it got better.
THE SUBWAY. WE'RE COMING BACK SO YOU COME BACK.
-A cop standing in a station.
"There are fare-beaters who are known criminals. When we stop them at the gate, we stop a more serious crime before it happens."
THE SUBWAY. WE'RE COMING BACK SO YOU COME BACK.
-A woman standing in front of a crowded train.
"Now they have air-conditioning on most of the trains so you don't suffocate."
FACT: 94% of the subway fleet is now air-conditioned.
THE SUBWAY. WE'RE COMING BACK SO YOU COME BACK.
All these ads corresponded with the TV commercials, so you could actually match the voice to the ad on the trains at the time.
Although they've added other languages to the signs now, they used to have "Learn English" ads written only in English.
About 30 years ago, New York subway: an ad for a hemorrhoid doctor, Dr Tusch. His Manhattan phone number was DRT-USCH.
One of the funniest subway ads I remember was for some kind of pregnancy care. It said in big letters on top:
PREGNANT???
We can Help!!
I guess you can take that as PRE or POST Pregnancy care.....
I've always been partial to the ongoing saga of Julio and Marisol and whoever they've managed to transmit HIV to this time.
CG
I've always been partial to the ongoing saga of Julio and Marisol and whoever they've managed to transmit HIV to this time.
LOL!
I remember that one! It had an English and Spanish version. It was like a soup opera. Every few weeks another chapter(ad). Like you said, whoever those two managed to spread HIV that week.
Sorry, typo. I meant "soap" opera.
It was always interesting to see the latest installment of Julio and Marisol. I wonder, though, if any new ones are still being produced. There haven't been any new ones in a year or more.
Get your skin fixed by the skin doctor Dr. Jonathan Zizmor!
--Mark
Well, "Catch all the trains you missed" is my all-time favorite.
The Bronx Zoo ads are probably the most creative subway ads I've seen in years.
Going back to my high school days, there was a Broadway musical entitled "Subways are for Sleeping".
The subway ads for it were just the title in big letters. For some reason, these ads didn't even last as long as the short run of the play :-)
-- Ed Sachs
When they designed the 8th Ave. line, why are there no crossovers in Manhattan from 59th St. through Canal St. (express to local), there is a little unused express to local switch north of 23rd). In Brooklyn, all the standard express stations (except Hoyt Schermerhorn) have full diamond crossovers.
When will the IND get master towers like the BMT and IRT?
Maybe they figured trains would get thru the area faster if there weren't crossovers.
I thought there was a full diamond crossover just south of Hoyt St.
Of course there is one (crossed over on it many times in the old days when the "A" was a local and the "E" ran express only in rush-hour. My stupidity. But what was the extra switches at Lafayette Ave for, the shuttle (HH) to cross over?
Are those switches still used? I was on a C train a few weeks ago that was sent express from Hoyt because of a stalled train at Kingston-Throop. I don't see why it didn't stop at Lafayette, both to give the stalled train another minute or two to get moving before giving up on it and to serve at least one of the local stops. So I think that the crossover at Lafayette may not be in usable condition right now.
That crossover may be only accessable from Lafayette Tower. On very few occaisions I have heard of a TSS sent to Laf Twr, for what reason I'm not exactly sure, but if the switch is in servicable condition, it may be thought that it would take too long for anyone to get to the tower, cut it in, that there is no point in trying.
The extra track from Lafayette to C/W probably was used as a turning track for the HH line after it terminated at Hoyt St.
The philoposphy behind the IND as I understand it was to reduce the ratio of Express to Local stops in midtown/downtown, eliminating problems with massive crowds of people trying to transfer between them. (That cross-platform train swapping was an unexpected phenomenon on the IRT, the expresses {expressi?, espressos?} were a huge success). The only local stops are 50/23/spring, and 14 on the 6Ave.
Where the express runs really make a difference on the IND is on the outer portions of the lines, which are amply crossovered, as you state.
Since the signal infrastructure on the IND is the newest, the master tower projects will not occur until the CBTC installation.
There are very few crossover switches on the IND in Manhattan. Well, the 8th Ave. line, anyway. The 6th Ave. line has its own version of Homeball Alley between 34th and 42nd Sts.
The 6th Ave. line has its own version of Homeball Alley between 34th and 42nd Sts.
Suree, has to be: 34th Street USED TO BE THE TERMINAL!
Elias
...and it currently is the terminal.
Peace,
ANDEE
Back then, it was the terminal for the rush hour BB and the F during nights and weekends. Nowadays, of course, the B and D terminate there.
Here is the key point for me about 8th Avenue crossovers -- there should be a local to express switch southbound and express to local switch northbound immediately south of 50th Street station.
Why? So the C could merge with the A south of 50th Street, instead of merging with the E and THEN de-merging with the E and merging with the A at Canal. This would make the C a little faster for those coming from Brooklyn, and make the routing simpler. And you might have more people using the C on Central Park West, if they could skip a couple of stops later on.
Meanwhile, with the C off the local, both the V and the E could run down 8th Avenue, with 6th Avenue riders from Queens either taking the F of changing at 7th Avenue. The advantage here is for those at Penn Station. They'd have 25 trains per hour going back to Times Square and the East Side on the local track, not just 15. Much better service for those from Long Island and New Jersey going to Rockefeller Center and east.
Much better service for those from Long Island and New Jersey going to Rockefeller Center and east.
My father worked at Rockefeller Center.....
HE ALWAYS *WALKED* FROM PENN STATION!
And on Fifth Avenue at that!
Elias
You're right that there should be a switch there, but for flexibility, not for regular service.
If the C normally switches to the express track, then CPW loses direct access to 23rd and Spring, Brooklyn loses direct access to 23rd and Spring, and the Broadway-Nassau megatransfer loses direct access to 23rd and Spring. A lot of people who take one train will have to take two; a lot of people who take two will have to take three.
If the V runs via 8th, there won't be any direct access between 6th and 53rd or between 6th and the Queens local (which was one of the oft-ignored accomplishments of the 63rd Street connector). Again, this imposes additional transfers. It also leaves 6th with only one service while 8th has four.
Penn Station has more than enough service to the East Side on the E. If passengers wouldn't insist on cramming into the ends of the train, they might not be so smushed. Conversely, I have to assume that if they voluntarily cram into the ends of the train, they don't mind being smushed.
The astute student will note along 8th Ave and other branches of the IND there are sections of tunnel that lack columns between the express and local tracks. Some of these still have gravel track beds, others have been rebuilt with concret bases. These were for possible crossovers or diamonds. I beleive there is one at the south end of Sheppard Ave, another at 168 or is it 169th st on the F line in Jamaica. There are others that more folks are awear of.
Oh, I beleive there is one south of Rockaway Parkway on the Fulton Line. Don't be shy, jump in with more. There must be some uptown!
avid
14th/B'way and 42nd/B'way (both BMT) have column gaps for crossovers. Does anyone remember if there were any x-overs removed about 1960 during resignalling contract S-92 ?
Also 4th Ave IND has the capacity for a trailing point crossover from B1 to B3, on the roadbed and in the machine.
there is a little unused express to local switch north of 23rd
Probably hasn't be touched since the times when 30-8th was in service.
I have a vague recollection of riding an E train that used that switch early this year. There was a weekend GO due to work on the local track near West 4th, so the E ran express from Canal to 23rd, but I think it switched to the local track there.
My memory may be faulty, since I see no reason not to keep the E on the express track. The C, maybe, but I'm pretty sure I was on an E. (Maybe my E stayed on the express but I saw that C's had switched to the local? More likely, I noticed that the work I had expected to see at 42nd wasn't happening, and I reasoned that perhaps the C was switching to the local track so it could make its stop at 50th, while the E was being kept on the express track since there was no reason to switch it except potential platform confusion at 34th.)
Can I please get directions to the station in New Jersey that has the fastest Acelas(135 MPH)and let me know if it is a safe enviornment for videotaping,as far as the locals in that community.(for example if it is in an area like North Philly or like Newark,I will pass on taking camcorder)Thanks
I frequent Hamilton and Princeton Junction NJT stations, both of which see 135 mph AE's and are as safe as any stations.
Directions from where?
Directions from the NJ turnpike southbound.
Simplest: Exit 7A, I 195 west to I 295 north to exit 65 Sloan Ave west. Hamilton station is 1/4 mile on the right.
North Philly Station is in a very new upcoming area. It really shouldnt be a problem during the day. There is a new Pathmark on one side of the Station and a pretty new parking lot near the ticket office. As long as they don't mind you on the platform that is safe.
Where in Newark would you railfan Amtrak thats not safe? Penn Station is very very safe with all the police there. That's is the busiest train station in the state.
Where in Newark would you railfan Amtrak thats not safe? Penn Station is very very safe with all the police there. That's is the busiest train station in the state.
I've taken many photos at Newark Station and never felt unsafe. The original request was for directions to a safe station through which the AEs run at 135 mph. They stop at Newark.
Princeton Junction is a good location as well. Been there a few times since my job is relocating there in a few months.
Paul
While Hamelton or Princeton Jct are fine for the 135 mph Acelas, Rahway and UNION interlocking is another NEC hotspot for fast movers. Now, there was a problem w/ ACELA sets being limited to 120/125 between UNION and Penn Station, but I odn't know if this has been fixed. Anyway, Rahway station is at the northern home signals for UNION interlocking (PRR Amber PL's). At Rahway the NEC is 6 tracks and you'll get a heck of a lot of action from both Amtrak, NJT Corridor trains and NJT NJCL trains. Rahway has an island platform which puts you right in the middle of the action.
I would also recomend Trenton station for hi-speed action. While most trains stop at Trenton, ACELA's and Metroliners fly right through at at least 100 and maybe even their top speeds. You can get a warning when a S/B extress train is comming as the signals mounted on the passenger concourse over the tracks will display a clear. Watch out, the warning is only good for a minute or two.
I finally was able to visit the Sheppard subway for the second time and got a better look at it than I did on the day passenger service started.
The line itself runs from Yonge St. out to Don Mills, with these stations, in order of west to east:
- Sheppard-Yonge
- Bayview
- Bessarion
- Leslie
- Don Mills
The rolling stock is all T1 cars, running in four car trains instead of the TTC's typical six. The stations themselves are correspondingly shorter, too, but all of them have been designed with the full six car train length in mind and were built so that the station ends can easily be knocked down and the full platform length, which has been provided, can be used - after suitible renovations to finish off those areas as they are only roughed in. The stations also cause an interesting illusion that I haven't seen mentioned yet - because they are so short, they make the 75 foot subway cars look proportionally bigger, so they appear to be very large.
Most of the artwork along the line is actually quite good; nothing has bombed the way nearly all the artwork on the Spadina line did - with the notable exception of the PCCs on the walls at Eglinton West station, of course.
The tiled mural at Yonge St. turned out quite well. Bayview was an exercise in perspective line drawings. Each drawing is laid out at funny angles so that they can only be seen correctly from certain locations in the station; I'm not particularly fond of this artwork. Bayview also has a hell of a long stair climb to the Kenaston Gdns. exit, where no escalators were provided.
I haven't taken a good look at Bessarion yet, but it seems to have been designed as a subway station without any art theme. I've only been on the subway platform there once, and it's quite a bright and pleasant combination of soft yellows.
Leslie has all of those handwritten tiles that say "Sheppard & Leslie." This would have worked out better if those tiles were used as trim and/or motifs with ordinary tiles, but they've been used exclusively throughout. The effect of that overusage is such that it's extremely repetitive and overdone, especially considering that the background colour is the same shade of grey on all of the tiles.
Lastly, Don Mills doesn't appear to have an art theme, so it's rather like Bessarion. However, Don Mills is plainly bland, without any intersting use of colour (it's all grey?) anywhere or any interesting geometric pattern layout to the floor tiles used.
All of the line, except for the stations, tail tracks, cross overs and the bridge over the Don River, which are cut and cover, is an interesting circular bore. Instead of using the typical cast iron tunnel segments, concrete ones were used instead. This seems to have the effect of reflecting sound better, and the line is noisier to ride on than the North Yonge at comprable speeds which has the metal tunnel liner. The Sheppard line is a good line for the T1s to stretch their legs because of the wide spacing between stations and the absence of sharp curves. I've seen a train hit 70km/hr on one of the downhills. Conversely, the ride on the same section is slower travelling in the opposite direction.
Another effect of the uninterrupted circular tunneling and the smooth riding T1 cars is that one's preception of speed isn't that good. It all seems to be slower, much slower than the spedometers on the trains register.
If I see anymore interesting things on the line as I look at it more closely, I'll post them here.
-Robert King
I wonder if and when they will put in concrete ties along the entire route of the Main Line?While they are in and the grade crossings at New Hyde Park Rd,S 12th street and Willis Ave in Mineola,wouldn't it make sense to just do the entire Main line?Granted there would be delays,however these could be kept to a minimum.It seems that the LIRR waits and waits and waits and waits.........................
No way, the ride is much more fun with wood ties. The C3s really rock and roll on them. Concrete tiles are too calm. No fun.
My cousin, and uncle in law said that to me last night who are avid railfans who live right near the Merrilon Ave. Station. With the addition of extra interlockings for Nassau right along that stretch, I could not see that it would not happen. I would think that some trains will be combined, or cancelled, just like when the one track on the Main Line was taken out of service back in 2001 between Hall, and Queens interlockings. Trains like the Dual-Mode trains to Port Jeff, and Oyster Bay will remain, but the Speonk run will use the Montauk Branch in the PM rush that uses the Main Line (train #2734).
Putting in concrete ties would involve taking one of the two tracks out of service for a considerable amount of time. I don't see how they could pull it off. When they did the stretch from Jamaica to Valley Stream via St. Albans this summer, it took about 4-5 weeks to do each track.
My guess is that the next place for concrete ties will be from Jamaica to Valley Stream via Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale. After that, I don't know that we'll see them anywhere else on the LIRR.
CG
Well if you look at PATCO, they were and are able to take one track out of service for tie replacement over offpeak hours and then get the track back in service for both peak periods. The LIAR could easily run tie replacement on nights and weekends and most commuters would never notice it.
I'm not familiar with PATCO -- do they have concrete ties?
My understanding is that the laying of concrete ties requires heavy machinery which is rented by the LIRR for such jobs. The pace at which the machine works and also the difficulty involved in moving the thing into and out of place make opening up a track for rush hour service impractical.
All of the concrete ties on the LIRR, and also those on the NEC through New Jersey required that the track be taken out of service for a considerable amount of time -- rush hours included.
Wood tie replacement is clearly a night and weekend job, but has anyone ever seen concrete ties laid without the machinery?
CG
PATCO has been installing concrete ties for the last several months and not for a single day have both tracks been out of service during rush hour. During the mid-weekdays crews mosty drop and palce ties. On weekends and nights crews actually do the repalcement.
Are they replacing the ties by hand or by machine?
CG
Their contractors are using machines, but they are not using one of those super automated jobbies that just sort of goes along and does the whole thing at once. I don't think one of the totally automated machines could handle 3rd rails.
"I don't think one of the totally automated machines could handle 3rd rails"
I think you're right about that. I noticed that the LIRR took out the third rail during this summers installation of concrete ties.
CG
One of the automatic machines in question is called a "P-811." With some modification, and careful placement on the flat cars, they can handle a long (third rail) tie. From everything I see, PATCO is doing this work by hand (with a crane and front-end loader on hi-rails) moving each tie into position and hammering the ties into place. I believe that the P-811 removes the old ties, installs the new ties, and consolidates the stone. New Jersey transit was performing similar work on their Atlantic City Line last week. Does anybody know if they used this equipment? They sure did that work quickly.
The problem isn't the extra length ties (they aren't used any more, just a plastic extender bit), but working around the 3rd rail. Also, the machine has no mechanism for detatching the 3rd rail from the insulators, the insulators from the tie and viae versa.
My guess is that the next place for concrete ties will be from Jamaica to Valley Stream via Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale. After that, I don't know that we'll see them anywhere else on the LIRR.
I'm sure they will continue. It is a major undertaking but is definitely possible. It wouldn't tie up the line any more than normal wood tie replacement ties it up. Either way service has to be suspended for a period of time. If the line is double tracked, it is less of a problem. But even the single tracked lines can get done with replacement bus service during off-peak hours. The Montauk Line east of Patchouge has been dealing with for months now (just for the normal maintenance wooden tie replacements).
See my reply to Jersey Mike's post -- you both raised similar issues.
CG
You are right. But they did manage to get concrete ties in some spots where they didn't take the track out of service for any long periods of time, such as in some of the Montauk Branch stations between Babylon and Sayville. It was done in conjunction with the high level platform projects, but I still don't remember those tracks being out of service for any long period of time (such as more than a weekend).
Does anyone know if they are going to make a third track between Mineola station and Herricks Rd?
Is there a place where i can get a picture of car 1391 when the bomb blew up in it? I never saw the car after the bombing.
Ask the webmaster. He might know where you can get a picture. BTW Car #1391 seems to be a very unlucky car. It was hit once, but suffered no serious damage.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't have one.
Thanks anyway.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually, it was at the opposite end of the train when an accident occurred at Wakefield Yard lead, February 3, 1998 - a Recbird #2 train heading into the yard plowed into the rear of a standing R62 #4 train, which was in the yard for its car wash, and it messed up the bonnet and anticlimber of #1400, and also sent #8980,8981,9152 and 9153 crashing off the el - the 9100 series cars caught fire.
wayne
I rode that car about a year ago, it was the lead car on a southbouund 4 train. I rode it from GC to 14th. I felt that it was shaking from side to side more than the other 4 trains I've been on.
Maybe some of the bad karma is still remaining in R-92 #1391. That car has not had an easy life. If it were to have been a human being, it wouldn't have been happy to have had its insides burned. Then to add insult to injury it was hit by a hard object. It is probably a very irate car if it should have a mind of its own.
#3 West End Jeff
I did once at GCT. It does go around. Look for it along with 1392-1393-1394-1395. It is in a 5-car set. Looks like it did the entire time, even after the firebombing with a new black floor.
Which Firebombing?!?!?!
Firebombing at Fulton St about a decade ago. I got the article upstairs. Some lunatic tried to extort money from the TA....
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
"Firebombing at Fulton St about a decade ago."
December 21, 1994, at 1:33 pm, southbound. The original 1247 Woodlawn/Utica. At least 47 passengers injured; 16 admitted to hospitals. 1391 was sixth south motor. No structural damage to car as a result of incendiary device exploding; mainly cosmetic damage.
There were debris on the chairs, ash all over the place, the advertisement at the end of the car was brned out, and it looks like the light panel was somewhat melted(I presume the point of explosion). Thanks for the photos
I realized the error I made. When I said I never saw it after the bombing, I meant I never saw it before the repairs were made. My apology
Once again it is time for the Annual SubTalk Mid-Holiday SEPTA Trip. This trip takes place between Christmas and New Years when Supervisors are on vacation and cab rides are plentiful. This trip would take palce on a weekday so try to find a good day in that range and replay if you are interestedi n comming. This year I am planning the following:
R2 to Wilmington
Fuzt Around Wilmington
R2 to Center City
R6 to Norristown
Rt. 100 to 69th St.
(Optional)
Rt. 102 to Clifton
R3 to Center City
or after the R2 Return
R3 to Media
R3 to Clifton
Rt 102 to 69th St.
(Optional)
Rt 100 to Norristown
R6 to Center City
Again, please reply to this thread if you are interested. Least year it was a blast and we got 2, count 'em Two cab rides.
This is where I would post the url to my Webshots photos from last year's trip, but Webshots is experiencing a problem. The thumbnails are there, but the links to the photos are gone. The first 24 photos on the page are from the trip.
My wife the bank examiner has a question. How often are token booth personnel required to rotate? During picks, or more often?
She says that banks would be required to move people frequently, to prevent embezzlement. And at large places that handle lots of cash, like DisneyWorld, no money handler knows their work location until they show up for thday. One way to catch it is to find that other employees consistently take in more money at the same locations at the same time.
My guess is that you don't have the same type of policy at the TA, and the same person can stay in the same booth for a long time until they choose to leave or are bumped out it. True?
Sort of a moot issue, with the machines taking in more and more of the money, but it is an interesting point.
"One way to catch it is to find that other employees consistently take in more money at the same locations at the same time."
Most systems have controls that measure whether the amount of money taken in corresponds to the amount of product sold. In a pre-Metrocard enivronment, presumably S/As had to balance their accounts by delivering an amount of money equal to the reduction in the token supply on hand, plus the number of tokens removed from the turnstiles. Metrocard sales should be even easier to track.
>>> Most systems have controls that measure whether the amount of money taken in corresponds to the amount of product sold <<<
That will not catch someone who is letting people in through a gate, or is in partnership with a card swiper.
Tom
That is why cameras are good that can record and be sample audited.
That will not catch someone who is letting people in through a gate
I have heard it said here, that each buzz-through of the gate is recorded, and if an agent has too many, he will be watched and/or asked about it.
Elias
We pick twice a year. That aside, once you pick a job you can stay there as long as someone with more senority does not want it.
As far as money goes, I can not say too much other than the statement below:
With AFC (Automated Fare Control) they know what we did and hwo much money to expect. When we pull our hweels that too is recorded and they know to look for so much in token sales and so much in cards which equals the amoutn of money to send in.
If we buzz someone in, that too is recorded.
We are subject to random booth audits at any time. If we are short often or greater than a certain amount which I wont specify, we face discipline. Same applies for large overages.
A little humor.... Is being disciplined an assignment to the garbage collection train?
Only C/TA's (aka cleaners) work on the garbage train.
>>> once you pick a job you can stay there as long as someone with more senority does not want it. <<<
Presumably this has to do with the union contract. From what you posted, the MTA seems to keep their eyes on the money pretty well. After all the system has had almost 100 years of getting to see all the scams employees can think of to skim money.
Tom
In an article today dealing with the recent deaths of two track workers, the Times makes the following observation:
The station at 96th Street and Broadway is among the city's oldest, opened on Oct. 27, 1904, for the old IRT line. Trains were smaller then, and so were the men who worked on the tracks.
Really, now. Exactly how much smaller were people in 1904? Five pounds? Maybe ten? I really don't imagine that increasing body size has had anything whatsoever to do with recent incidents.
That's whack. I've have no idea what they are trying to prove. Nice find. That quote is a keeper :)
Perhaps their point is that McDonalds bears some financial responsibity for these tradgedies.
What is true is that the TA has changed its standards for areas to clear up in, with some niches no longer legal. Perhaps people were smaller in 1904, or perhaps they were worth less.
Munchkins?
well, i guess the mta can only hire midgets and small children for track work now...
IND catwalk is the best, look at it sometimes then go down south of City Hall or look at Myrtle Ave on the L.
The catwalk south of City Hall (N/R/W) was shaved so they could run 75-foot cars.
There are lots of "no clearance" (red-striped) zones all around the system. Case in point: Lexington Avenue-60th Street.
I like the idea of the remote tripper - or a portable "flashing yellow" traffic signal (with big bright led lights) they could set up wherever they needed to to warn oncoming trains. Portable/temporary signals right now look like they consist of a vertical row of yellow or green stickers on a picket (i.e. the "leaf caution zone" on the n/b "Q" approaching Newkirk).
wayne
They already have the remote trippers (for flaggers) and the flashing yellow (for maintainers). Problem is, gangs and maintainers noit setting them up properly. Plus, the maintainers have only their lantern or orange flag (no flagger or tripper), and often they have it with them, so you still may not see them until too late. Some go out there with only their flashlights. But now, all people on the tracks will have to have flaggers and trippers.
I think you mean portable trips. Remote trips would involve no flagman, the gang would control the trip from a distance.
You need to refresh your flagging rules, the boards are for a different purpose and they are not the problem at all.
The fact that some areas were shaved does not change the facts.
The catwalks in the system are wider in the newer areas in general.
Compare the Brooklyn and Manhattan portions of the L train or the roomy 63rd St cut where do not have to hump the wall if you are overweight as the train goes by.
By that logic, track rabbits have grown significantly, too, since 1904 ....
--Mark
Really, now. Exactly how much smaller were people in 1904? Five pounds? Maybe ten? I really don't imagine that increasing body size has had anything whatsoever to do with recent incidents.
Probably significantly smaller than today, in both stature and weight. According to research I've seen 1900 marked only a slight increase in the overall height of males in the U.S. that reached a low in 1890, possibly influenced by a large influx of European immigrants, who were of smaller stature than American-born males, going back to the Revolutionary War.
You would be surprised how much common infrastructure is based on an average size of human beings, with little room for error. I'm taller than average (6'1"+) but hardly extremely so. When I moved into my last house, I had to raise several light fixtures in the hallways to avoid hitting my head. Ditto the kitchen and dining room of my current house. If I'm not careful I scrape my head painfully on the ductwork in the basement. If I sleep on a standard twin mattress, I would have less than an inch above my head and below my feet.
So, no, it wouldn't surprise me at all that the original IRT tunnel is not made for the modern American male.
But whether that had any bearing at all on the recent deaths, I have no idea.
Nice to know you read that liberal rag.
Now, now Fred! Take it easy! By the way, I don't know of many "Conservatives" who would ask total strangers on the street to ride with them on The Cyclone in 2002!! That reeks of being "Liberal"!
Well, if the truth be known I do have a little of that liberal streak in me. I haven't gone over completely to the right. When it comes to education, rights of labor and medical insurance for people I become a radical. But remember, the reason I asked strangers was because you didn't want to ride with me. Bob didn't want to ride with me when we were there last year, neither did Newkirk, neither did Doug, neither did anyone else except Gary Wengeroff and Jeff Alterman. Well, hell, it was good to hear from you. We have to get together again next year either in Jersey or in New York. We've had a blast doing that, right?
Heh, let me know when you'll be in to ride the Cyclone and I'll fight you for the railfan "window" :)
--Mark
No El Marko, you will not have to fight for that railfan window. I do remember you gladly shared it with me when we rode the Triplex across Brooklyn on the express tracks. Wasn't that a hoot? No, you can have the railfan window if you want it that much, just let me have some of it when we swoosh through those little tunnels. Do you ride the Cyclone? Good God, no one seems to want to. It isn't that I'm some big macho tough guy. I wouldn't ride the ferris wheel for all the rice in Japan, but for some reason roller coasters give me this high. Have a nice weekend and a great Chanukuh/
Hey Fred, does Linda go for roller coasters?:)
Next time you're in, I'll ride the Cyclone with you and you'll ride the Wonder Wheel with me. And, OK, I'll share :)
--Mark
We had a great time, I just felt a *little* guilty the last time when you did not have a chance to touch New York City. I was hoping you would enjoy a "change of pace", riding Path, the Newark City Subway, the Hudson Light Rail Line, and of course, the "fireman's seat" up on an NJ Transit F-40 engine on the Raritan Valley Line from Newark all the way out to Raritan. Some of the guys on this board would give anything to do that!
Purge yourself of any guilt you might have had because I had one hell of a time. The ride in the fireman's seat just capped off a great day. However, if truth be known I almost gave up trying to find you. I went to where the street ends three times and saw nothing that looked like what you described as your hangout. Then some guy suggested I try going to a place where he saw workers two days earlier. Walla!!. Glad I was smart enough to accost someone and ask some questions. It turned out to be a great day. Hopefully, we will have a lot more.
"saw nothing that looked like what you described as your hangout"
My "hangout"?? That was my "office", if you will! That's where I go to work every day. Even though I report there each day and then I'm "on the move" afterward, I wouldn't exactly call Raritan Yard my "hangout"!
How about your second home? BTW, have you been to the big city lately?
Yes, I went to New York on Thanksgiving Day to visit my family. I did not want to drive, so I took the Coast Line to Penn Station, then the subway and bus to my father's house. Unfortunately for you, I took the IRT #2 train to Brooklyn, and not the Sea Beach!
Someone called it "Pravda on Hudson."
Arti
Someone called it "Pravda on Hudson."
Is it truthful?
What do you mean?
Arti
"Pravda" is "truth" in Russian. NYTimes is more like "Izvestia" (the other party line newspapersky). :)
Difference between Pravda and Izvestia, was that the latter was more "liberal." Also you are probably one of the few people who actually knows about Izvestia.
Arti
Yeah, that pesky journalism background embarasses me once again. :)
That's what I get for being in the BREMR (last R reversed for "news") business. Tovarich! Pudgudsky! In the hole! Heh. And to think ... now they're our friends. "In Russia, they hold you tight by collar ... in America, they let you out on leash." :)
For folks my age, this whole turnaround has been nothing short of amusing. When I grew up, we were convinced the Russkies would blow us up. Now it's Standard Oil, Enron and the current regime's buddies that are going to blow us up. Nixon must be twirling in his grave along with Joe McCarthy.
For folks my age, this whole turnaround has been nothing short of amusing. When I grew up, we were convinced the Russkies would blow us up. Now it's Standard Oil, Enron and the current regime's buddies that are going to blow us up.
I must have dropped my scorecard someplace. Which of the above entities blew up the World Trade Center?
That would be the Exxon-Mobil/Standard Oil/Enron/Williams/Entergy wholesalers ... the nations that provided money to the republicans because the democrats were too cozy with those pesky Zionist-type individuals. At LEAST the Russkies treated women with a modicum of equality, and permitted ART and MUSIC ... now we're faced with the Taliban at home and abroad who delight in killing people because they have freedom of religion and person, and repress anyone who ain't got that proper fundamentalist moral fibre as dictated by imams ...
I know *I* am glad to not be a republican. Whoops. :)
*Whew* I was afraid you were going to say Mossad :D
Heh. No seriously, there's a REASON why I've had my fill of the nutcakes in charge, and those they pander to. When everyone else in this country wet their bedsheets and headed to the bunker for the Y2K doomsday celebration (remember THAT? Heh) WE went to Montreal to get away from the bunker mentality and the stinky bedsheets of NBC Nightly Nukes and Tom Brokenarrow ...
But there's a reason why I worry about the victors of the campaign. Remember that ANTHRAX thingy with the post office? Check THIS out ... our "friends" who wear towels are one thing, but yes indeedy, there's sleeper cells AMONG us right in the Tri-State area, but they're as likely to get caught as Osama because they're on the extreme RIGHT side of God ...
http://www.crankymediaguy.com/oped.html
They're still at large too ... meanwhile, the wagons are circled around PeTA ... mind ya, I don't like those guys either - they NUTS, but they're certainly not sending militarized Anthrax through the mails, so at least in my book, I'd have a different perspective on PRIORITIES ... so yeah, I must be a liberal somehow. What's funny though is CNN did a whole thing on how Americans don't have sex last week compared to even the Brits. Given our Taliban mentality as governance lately here in this country, no WONDER nobody's getting any. :)
meanwhile, the wagons are circled around PeTA ... mind ya, I don't like those guys either - they NUTS, but they're certainly not sending militarized Anthrax through the mails, so at least in my book,
Ah, so you think. What is I were to tell you that PeTA has assembled a cadre of political committed rabid raccoons poised, on central command, to spread throughout the subway system and backyards in the entire Metropolitan Area?
And I suppose you haven't noticed how many squirrels have cell phones these days. ;-)
Coons? Squirrels? Poof ... they're puthies ... now a well-armed MOOSE, or a Black bear with an assault rifle ("Protect your right to arm bears") is FAR more deadly. AND they can drive ... but yeah, IT'S A CONSPIRACY, MAN! :)
And as I *always* offer, anyone who loves cuddly, furry skunks, bambis, or minks (yes, there is wild MINK up here) are MORE than welcome to back a truck onto our property and take away as many as their landlord will let them keep with OUR blessings! All we ask is that they DON'T bring them BACK! Heh.
Check out that article though ... kooks is kooks, no matter which wing they choose to grasp the husk of ...
Meanwhile, back in the desert the Arabs were eating their dates.
You DOG, you! Heh.
An old Italian couple is walking around in the mall. After a while they get separated so the woman goes up to the first saleswoman she sees and asks, "Escusa me, have you senn-a me Tony. He's got a big-a belly and a-lots of curly black hair?"
The saleswoman answers that she hasn't seen her husband. So the Italian woman goes to ask another saleswoman: "Escusa me, have you senn-a me Tony. He's got a big-a belly and a-lots of curly black hair?" "No, I'm sorry maam, I haven't seen your husband."
The Italian woman goes to see one more saleswoman and asks, "Escusa me, have you seen-a me Tony. He's got a big-a belly and a-lots of curly black hair?"
The saleswoman answers, "Yes I saw him, he ran out of here
licketysplit."
"No no no, thatsa not-a my Tony. He pinch-a the bum, grab-a the
breasts...but he no lickety split!"
Great job Kevin. Sounds like some of our old and dear gone relatives from the old country. I would like to have some of that thick black curly hair Tony has. I have been fighting a receding hairline for over 30 years and the hairline is winning. The belly I can pass on.
Since I am a proud Dago I can tell this one. You can tell it as an Irish joke if you wish.
When are the only three times an Italian boy sees his priest?
One-When he's baptized
Two-When he's confirmed
Three--When he's executed.
Heh. Better watch out if there's a transit strike, and be careful of your livery if there's substitutions. After stopping for drinks at an illegal bar, a Zimbabwean bus driver found that the 20 mental patients he was supposed to be transporting from Harare to Bulawayo had escaped. Not wanting to admit his incompetence, the driver went to a nearby bus-stop and offered everyone waiting there a free ride. He then delivered the passengers to the mental hospital, telling the staff that the patients were very excitable and prone to bizarre fantasies. The deception wasn't discovered for 3 days.
I will make a note. In fact, I will be on guard. If something like this should happen to me I could be in a mess of trouble. There are some people out here who think that I should be that place where the innocent riders were taken.
...and grandma was beating off the indians. 8-)
Peace,
ANDE
Sounds like one of my grandmothers. That lady just didn't like me and actually said I would be the death of her daughter (my mother). Can you imagine that? Of course, when she and my grand dad (another gem) moved to Selden, Long Island, my cousin, brother, a friend and I used to run all over her potato and tomato patches. She would shout at us----You sommina biches. Well, I guess she had reason to dislike us for that, but let me tell you, she really disliked us period.
Sounds like one of my grandmothers. That lady just didn't like me and actually said I would be the death of her daughter (my mother). Can you imagine that? Of course, when she and my grand dad (another gem) moved to Selden, Long Island, my cousin, brother, a friend and I used to run all over her potato and tomato patches. She would shout at us----You sommina biches. Well, I guess she had reason to dislike us for that, but let me tell you, she really disliked us period.
Whoops is right. Now my friend BVMT Doug is going to climb all over your ass for getting political when we're not supposed to. OK, Doug, give it to Selkirk. BTW Kevin, how are you and your trial lawyer friends doing right about now? Trying to scare the people by telling them that we're going to burn black churches, starve children, take elderly people's social security away, etc, etc. Oh, what the hell, get back to reading Marx and Engels. It will give you something to do in that exciting environment you live in.
BTW, I hope you know this is all in fun and I expect you to come back with vigor. OK with me.
Read the article I linked to. Speaks for itself. And until I get MY fat winnings, the trial lawyers are held in about as much regard as Cheney et al (who happen to be trial lawyers too). 'Cept for Dubya, he didn't make it to law school, much to daddy's chagrin. Heh. I'll let history decide the rest. Moo. :)
Fair enough. You make me LMAO. Good job and don't take too seriously the stuff that eminates from this subtalker. It is all in fun as I've told you a dozen or so times.
Oh come Paul, you ought to know Selkirk well enough by now. He likes to pull everyone's chain. He's a unique guy. How many aparatchicks do you know with a sense of humor? Give the guy credit. He had to put down his copy of Marx in order to read and answer your post. That must have been a hell of a tall order for our friend from the woods.
Yo yo yo! I'm a John Lennonist and a Harpo Marxist ... honk-honk. Besides, when I pull the chain, the water swirls. VERY relaxing. :)
While body size may have nothing to do with these incidents, people were shorter back then. Just go the the transit museum, and you'll notice that the seats were much shorter back then, and it's because people were shorter.
>>>>Trains were smaller then...<<<
I take issue with this part of the statement. Weren't LO-Vs/HI-Vs the same size as the present equipment?
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe the reporter got confused by Joe Frank's O gauge LoV's. :)
Here's an idea for utilizing the express tracks on the IND Crosstown between Bergen St. and Church Ave. (If this was discussed earlier on SubTalk, I apologize.)
Route the F as express between Bergen St. and Church Ave., then run it local to Stillwell Ave. (when it is finished).
Route the G like it is (Court Sq.-Smith/9th), but extend it to Church Ave.
Route the V from 2nd Ave thru the Rutgers St. tunnel, on the same route as the F, then switch it to the IND Crosstown tracks. The V would then run local between Bergen St. and Church Ave.
Is this a good idea?
I'm afraid this idea comes up at least once a week.
There are at least two reasons this can't be done now. First, there aren't enough cars. Second, the Bergen interlocking, in its current dysfunctional form, can be manually set to send all Manhattan trains local or all Manhattan trains express, but not to switch back and forth between trains. (Repairs are underway.) Also, some have raised the concern that Church doesn't have the capacity as a terminal to turn both the G and the V.
Once again, this comes up, I think he missed the great big discussions that subtalk had on this.
I don't even remember the thread titles (there were a few threads all going at the same time) to direct him to them either. But it's not that long ago (last month or so).
Thanks, the info was helpful.
Are the repairs supposed to allow switching between trains?
Certainly. Will your plan or a similar one be implemented? Time will tell.
I would assume that since they are repairing the damaged interlocking at Bergen, they want to keep this option open for the future. If they didn't at least somewhat plan for it, they would have just left the switches the way they are. (Although they could just be repairing the interlocking to allow for an alternative route in case of GO's, but that would be a silly way to spend money for the few times they would need to send a GO through there).
Like David said, only time will tell, but I still think they must have some idea of running expresses in the future.
As for the mess lower Bergen Station is in, they also sort of left provision for it's possible use when they installed those very large doors in the upper recently renovated station. If they weren't possibly considering one day using lower Bergen again, they would have just put a normal door in there. Not that they would have to even use lower Bergen as an express station (expresses could just by-pass it like they pass other abandoned stations (18th, 91st, etc). Is it even necessary to use Lower Bergen - does passenger volume warrant express service at Bergen?
Church doesn't have the capacity as a terminal to turn both the G and the V.
Correct. I'd terminate the (G) at Church
I'd Run the (F) as a Local to Kings Highway
I'd Run the (V) as an Express to Coney Island
Elias
In that case, why not run the V express in Manhattan?
In that case, why not run the V express in Manhattan?
Because of the way the switches are aligned, you would have to cross from the local to the express twice, which would bollix everything all up. And just for two stops (23rd and 14th) it just ain't worth the effort.
The Tracks from the Bronx run on the 'express' line and exit Manhattan via the Bridge.
The Tracks from the Queens run on the 'local' line and exit Manhattan via the Rutgers Tunnel.
Any Switching there will slow things way down.
However, 6th and 8th Avenue LOCALS can swap terminals without crossing infront of other trains.
So this is an option too:
(G) Local to Church
(F) Local to Kings Highway
(E) Express to Coney Island via Rutgers/Culver
(V) Local to Hudson Terminal (Chambers St.; WTC et al)
Elias
Yeah, that's possible, but you would be screwing around with long established service patterns when you involve the E and V trains.
Actually, I retract my last post. The V train is new, and the E has been running to WTC since 1978, so it's not like they're that old. I'd have to get used to it. :)
If you're going to switch locals south of West 4th, it's best to switch them all (C and E go to Houton, F and V continue down 6th). See post 412975 for why that benefits almost everybody.
(E) Express to Coney Island via Rutgers/Culver
(V) Local to Hudson Terminal (Chambers St.; WTC et al)
HUH????????????????
Sixth and Eighth Avenue locals *can* switch routes south of West 4th Street on flying crossovers, and therefore do not interfere with other trains to do so.
I've thought it would be interesting to make use of this capability.
I thing that running the (V)into Chambers Street (Hudson Terminal et al) would be a useful service from 6th Avenue. That would defacto bump the (E) over to the Rutger's Tunnel and a routing to Coney Island via the Culver.
In this senerio the Smith/Culver routings would look like this:
(G) Local to Church Avenue
(F) Local to Kings Highway
(E) Express to Coney Island.
: ) Elias
Well, capacity is one thing but, swaping E and V! I don't think QB riders gonna like that
Well, capacity is one thing but, swaping E and V! I don't think QB riders gonna like that
We are speaking of the other end of the (E) and (V) trains, and this has no effect whatsoever on QB Riders.
(E) remains 8th Avenue
(V) remains 6th Avenue
The change occurs only south of W4th St. At that point, both trains are presently only inches away from their terminals.
Elias
"Well, capacity is one thing but, swaping E and V! I don't think QB riders gonna like that
We are speaking of the other end of the (E) and (V) trains, and this has no effect whatsoever on QB Riders."
Rationally you are right, Elias, but previous threads on this board suggest that QB riders always oppose all changes vehemently, whether they make any difference to them or not (8-) !
"In this senerio the Smith/Culver routings would look like this:
(G) Local to Church Avenue
(F) Local to Kings Highway
(E) Express to Coney Island."
OK, maybe the Culver Line is overcrowded, and could use express service and a few more trains. But increasing tph to Manhattan from 14 to 29 sounds pretty extreme! Sending the V or C to Culver in addition to the F would be ample.
Why bother?
Particularly in Manhattan, the primary reason some trains run express is that there isn't room for all of them on the local tracks.
What's the point of switching the V to the express track to bypass two busy stops, one of which is a transfer point?
Correct. I'd terminate the (G) at Church
I'd Run the (F) as a Local to Kings Highway
I'd Run the (V) as an Express to Coney Island
If the F is running express between Bergen and Church, why not keep the F express on the Culver also? If both the G and V can't both terminate at Church, why not run the F express all the way to to Coney Island (of course local b/t KH and CI), and have the V run as the full local to Kings Highway?
I never said the (F) would run express between Bergen and Church...
in fact I said the (V) would do this.
The rational here is that there are more (F) trains than (V) trains, and because the people along Smith Street would BITCH if they lost the (F) train in favor of a less frequent local.
Those between Kings Highway and Coney Island do not need as frequent a service, especially when the service they have will be EXPRESS!
Elias
I never said the (F) would run express between Bergen and Church...
in fact I said the (V) would do this.
Sorry, I don't know why I assumed that. Must be because that is what everyone else has been suggesting. Your idea makes alot of sense now.
Well, we did a HUGE discussion on this subject not too long ago so don't be surprised if you don't get as much replies as you wish[I could be wrong]If you want, you could look at the archives but there are at least 3 different titles on this. As some have said, the Church Av turnaround is not ready so that isn't possible now.
Reasons for biasing Newark station without ever having been there is my experience with the surrounding neighborhood has been less than desireable.An incident this summer at the Farmingdale Station on the LIRR left me a bit shook up as several thuggish individuals approached me and started asking questions,I guess my composure scared them off but it was ME who was shaking.A few weeks there was that Murder of a teenager at that same station!!When I ask if somewhere is SAFE,I will always refer to the surrounding environs.In fact let me pose this Question for some ofmy LIRR friends.Would you go out and stand at the Wyandach station all alone,with expensive video equipment at 10:00 PM? I would not.
Reasons for biasing Newark station without ever having been there is my experience with the surrounding neighborhood has been less than desireable.An incident this summer at the Farmingdale Station on the LIRR left me a bit shook up as several thuggish individuals approached me and started asking questions,I guess my composure scared them off but it was ME who was shaking.A few weeks there was that Murder of a teenager at that same station!!When I ask if somewhere is SAFE,I will always refer to the surrounding environs.In fact let me pose this Question for some ofmy LIRR friends.Would you go out and stand at the Wyandach station all alone,with expensive video equipment at 10:00 PM? I would not.
Station safety is a complex matter that can't be deduced merely by looking at the quality of the surrounding neighborhood. By that standard, Farmingdale LIRR should be quite safe, but in your experience it wasn't. Wyandanch, to use your other example, may indeed be safe even late at night, for although the neighborhood leaves something to be desired, the platform is exposed. It really isn't possible to jump to conclusions. By the way, I'd suspect that Newark Penn is reasonably safe given its heavy usage and a significant police presence.
Ok, since we did the worst and best subway car, how about we do the worst & best subway line[I have a feeling that this topic would be changed so I've decided to include the best line in your opinions as well].
The best I'll say is the Q express, very consistent, on time most of the time, decent express runs and the trains are pretty clean.
The worst subway line I'll say is the Crosstown local (G). The people get screwed over, it has the ugliest stations[ever see Broadway], the oddest terminals at Smith-9 St and Court Sq, bad transfer points like Court Sq; very few transfer points, only 4 cars for a regular line all times, and average headways, just horrible.
Q express, which I consider MY LINE is good, but don't forget the #7. Also passengers on the Queens Blvd. IND never have to wait long for a train and always have express service. The 7 and IND in Queens have always had bad crowding though.
Is there ever a crowd on the G? For getting a seat the G and the IND (CP-West Local) are good for seats.
I have to say, the IND express trains in Queens can be crowded in certain cars. S/B E trains always experience severe overcrowding in the first two cars, because everyone wants to be near the escalators at Lexington when they detrain. But it's hard to find a train with overcrowding conditions in every car. It's usually limited to just certain cars.
Is there ever a crowd on the G?
Around 3:15pm everyday. Northbound, Fulton St. Station.
I think the best run line is the 6, even if not my favorite (We are talking our opinions of worst/best-not favorite. I like the 6, just not first favorite line). Anyway, I feel it has some of the best headways, and a fairly interesting run in both Manhattan and the Bronx. The worst, that's a tough question.
I really don't hate any line (but again we are not talking about opinions of favorite/non-favorite lines). For worst, the G comes to mind, but so does the R. The R in my opinion (even if it's just psychological), has really bad headways, a fairly boring run (ironic, because the Broadway trunk line is one of my favorite trunk lines in Manhattan).
I say it's a toss up between those two lines. For some reason I don't really hate the G, I like the Crosstown trunkline, and it's terminal at Smith-9th is very interesting. However, if you are describing the "worst" as the most "sh*t" on line in the system, I would have to say the G.
The best line is (of course) the Q diamond express, on a hot summer day it can top nearly 45 MPH going NB down the dip from Ave H to Newkirk Ave, better than going on the 4 and 5 from Grand Central to 59th St. The worst subway line: the Rotten R line, the slowest and most inefficient line there is.
Yes thats true about the Q :-)! Riding in a A/C'ed slant & having good speed throughout w/o the timers. You got that right, Rarely needs some help with the headways.
The 'J' train does that between Marcy and Myrtle heading eastbound on the center track.
Hands down, the R [Rarely] is the worst line when it comes to headways, in fact every BMT line except the L has bad headways but the R takes the cake but the N is very close and I agree, the R is boring. The N lost its luster since it moved to that tunnel[Montague] and it became local in Manhattan and service went down and still hasn't regained some of the ridership/popularity it once had but its slowly recovering.
Slowly recovering? I like your optimistic bent about the Sea Beach but I sure as hell don't see any slow recovery. Where the hell is the recovery? It is still a lumbering local in Manhattan, a far cry from what it was as the Broadway Express decades ago. It traverses the Montague rat hole instead of sauntering over the Manny B, and it goes only to 86th Street. When they picked one line to continue to Stillwell after reconstruction on that station was begun, guess what? It wasn't my line. There will be a recovery when those things I mentioned that haven't happened happen.
Hey guy! Well, take heart ... they still chose wisely ... you can only get to Coney on the Dubya. :)
And I suppose to you the Dubya means the TA picked the Republican train to go to Coney Island. Is that it? Well, friend, I don't think that corrolation has solved my problem or that of my train.
Well what can I say? Dubya goes to Coney, the "en" doesn't. I'd have a talk with the boy and ask him why he bumped your train? I'd say you have an issue here, and I'm ALWAYS willing to stir the pot (or smoke it if available, heh). :)
Ya know something? I'm really beginning to get annoyed about the way you feel about the N as it is now.Sure it takes longer since it goes over the tunnel but saying it sucks also because it's local instead of express in Manhattan is really,sorry to say it,pathetic.It's only 4 stations the Q and W skip as the Broadway express,so what the hell is the big deal about making the N a Broadway EXP? I think it staying local in Manhattan AND going over the bridge will get it back to it's 'popularity' from old times.But to skip only 4 station's in Manhattan really,REALLY isn't worth it,believe me.
I understand Fred. It is the ego thing.
Also he can not understand why Sea Beach has four track capacity and only uses two. I don't know why either.
Because one of the tracks is deemed unuseable since the connection to other tracks was servered who knows when.So that only leaves what is supposed to be the northbound 'express' track as the only track that can be used for skipping stations.So because of that is why there can never be Sea Beach EXP service except during a G.O. and that would most likely result in N trains,as it happened once before,running express from Kings Hwy-59St.That's the best that can be done and during G.O.'s only.
There can be peak direction express service, but people in Brooklyn would probably have to adjust to that since they are used to having two directional express services
There can be,but the people who use those station's would cause a riot and we wouldn't want that.
Well, there are only 3 tracks now since the CI bound track is way out of shape & the MB track is only used for GO's & I'm not sure it is possible to run peak diredction express service unless it is a dual direction track, which I believe it is not. The NX was a failure back then in 1968 due to low ridership but it MAY be useful now
You've got me pegged perfectly Peppertree. It is a lot ego, I admit it. But why have only two tracks operating when you have four. It was built for four not for two. Well, this is one subject that I'm sure will generate a lot of heat.
Because if trains were run on all four tracks, then all of the Sea Beach stations would have their service cut in half.
Ya know something? I'm really beginning to get annoyed about the way you feel about the N as it is now.Sure it takes longer since it goes over the tunnel but saying it sucks also because it's local instead of express in Manhattan is really,sorry to say it,pathetic
V-train: The trouble with some people is that they don't appreciate what they have. Sure the Sea Ditch has seen better days but at least its still around. I miss the Third Avenue El but I don't spend time bad mouthing the other lines. Their is one poster on this site who is without doubt the number one fan of the Lexington Avenue El and yet he never has an unkind word to say about any of the other transit lines. It takes me longer to get out of bed in the morning. Do I chalk it up to getting older or do I make deprecating comments about younger people.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Yeah I can clearly see that he doesn't appreciate the current N service.So all I'm trying to say is that he better cut the BS and get used to it cause there's really no point in insulting the N for how it is right now.Add the fact that it's gonna remain that way for another 2 years and possibly FOREVER! if the TA decides to keep the N the way it is now in 2 years.Just take what's given to you and if you don't like it,get the f*** out.That's what I alway's say.
You really don't realize he is doing it in jest and having fun on this board? C'mon, he lives in California for G-d sakes!!! This board doesn't have to be serious 24-7!!!
Thanks Sarge, you are mostly right. I do have lots of fun on this board and I like pulling the chains of others. But deep down I am disappointed in what has happened to my favorite train. Maybe in two years I will be feeling good all over.
You really don't realize he is doing it in jest and having fun on this board? C'mon, he lives in California for G-d sakes!!! This board doesn't have to be serious 24-7 you know!!! I got proff!!!
I wouldn't call insulting a train line for it's current service a way of having fun on this board.
Hey chooch, I love the Sea Beach, and you seem to be the only guy on baord who doesn't know that. It is not an insult, it is a hurt, and, besides, it is good theater to get on the soap box and vent my spleen. It is supposed to be all in fun, so lighten up and smell the freaking coffee.
and you seem to be the only guy on baord who doesn't know that.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe the "V Train" is a V Trainette. So the guy, is a gal.
Well Maybe a V Train/N Train dual is in order then. Let's put a V Train and a N Train on the Sea Beach Express tracks at 86th Street and see which gets to Continental Ave first, via Orange 6th or via Yellow Broadway.
Uh-oh. The Orange lines are banned from the MB, so I guess we'll have to wait till 2004. Well, I don't think Fred wants the N running to Continental anymore either. Oh Well, no dual.
Well, it was worth taking a shot at ;-). And where would you connect the V with the N at, even if the bridge was open?
Why do people spell 'proof' as 'proff'!?
Why do people spell 'proof' as 'proff'!?
Kind of an inside joke on the board... a certain notorious poster spelled it that way (repeatedly) when he was absolutely dead wrong about something (I don't even remember what now) and now that misspelling has gained a life of its own here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is up with people on this board using "proff".. sheesh! back on topic, I agree with you its just a board for people to express their opinions.
Hey V lad, I did get the F@#$ out. I have not lived in New York in 48 years, but if it is going to make your day by me accepting what has happened to my favorite train just to make you happy, well, dream on. We use Subtalk as a forum to laud our favorite trains, swap tales, and, yes moan and groan when we have a gripe. My gripe is well known and, baby, it ain't gonna change. When I see the Sea Beach back on the Manny B, going to Coney Island, and becoming an express, then you will see an end to my diatribes. My friends on Subtalk have gotten used to me, you do the same or stop reading my posts if it bothers you that much.
One reason you do read my posts is because you find them entertaining. Right?
Yeah, especially when Bob chimes in.
Bob has been on a hiatus the past few weeks. Haven't heard a thing from him. I've got to call him tomorrow. BTW, ever though of going to Notre Dame for a football game. Next fall I'm going there to watch them hopefully pay pack USC for what transpired on Saturday. Let me know if you can go. If not, maybe when we get to New York, if we do at the same time, we can see a Mets game and I can show you how a real "New York" bred fan gets involved in the game.
As much as I dislike USC (hate is too strong a word), I feel it was a simple case of ND running into a team on a roll and a quarterback on a major hot streak. Those things happen. And to think Carson Palmer wanted to go to South Bend, but his SAT scores didn't measure up.
I've seen Notre Dame in person in Colorado Springs a few times and once in Boulder when they played Colorado in 1983, but never in South Bend. Go figure that out - I was born there and lived maybe two miles from the campus, and my father had season tickets every year thanks to my grandfather, who was on the faculty.
On those occasions when I've seen the Irish in person, I can get excited. If one of their guys busts a big run, I'll scream, "GO!! GO!! GO!!!" every time.
You know, I have been thinking about writing a song about Brooklyn's old Lexington Ave el. I guess I am one of the few people on here that remember it.
Karl: I never had the chance to ride the Lexington Avenue El although from descriptions that my mother gave me I know that I rode the Fulton Street El between Rockaway Avenue and Rockaway Boulevard where we caught a bus to vist friends in The Rockaways. My earliest memory of a Rockaway vist was transferring at Euclid Avenue so it had to be 1956 or later.
I rode the Third Avenue El in Manhattan frequently and even remember one trip to Chatham Square when that was the southern terminal. I also recall riding Gate Cars on the #9 in The Bronx.
You should write a song about the Lex. Perhaps you could put together all your recollections of the Lex into a narrative and put it on the web-site. There's nothing like first hand experiences.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, I rode the Fulton-Lex Line between Grant Ave and Bridge-Jay St rather often before 1950, so we rode much of the same line although some years apart.
Barb won't let me write any more music since I can't read the notes, and have a habit of singing monotone. I did write an article about the Last Lex, and Paul Matus put it up. The last time I checked it was still here
You may have seen this before!
Do you have access to a piano or electronic keyboard?
Thank you, Steve,
The old guy in Gettysburg finally figured out how to post a link using html. It was a major accomplishment for me, and I am rather proud. The really sad thing is that you are apparently the only one who saw it.
In answer to your question, no keyboard, but we do have a piano that hasn't been tuned in 23 years. My wife refuses to use it because it is so out of tune, and she is the closest to being a musician in our family. I guess that there will be no song forthcoming about the old Lexington Ave el.
The school I student taught at had a couple of pianos which were way off pitch. One was a whole tone flat while another was a tone and half flat. In other words, when you struck middle C on the latter, you heard A. I wasn't going to go anywhere near that thing.
Gettysburg? You live there? Wow! I finally went there in the summer of '98. Actually did Pickett's Charge. About nine-tenths of a mile long in open country-----no cover at all. What the hell was Robert E. Lee thinking of? Great move for us, though. You are a Yankee I hope. Anyway, I have to return there. What history and what pretty country. I'm planning on joining the Lincoln Forum and they have a lot of meeting in your fine community.
You are a Yankee I hope.
Did you forget that I was born and grew up in Brooklyn?
I forgot. A thousand pardons for thinking otherwise. How far are you from #1 Lincoln Place. I can't remember the hotel but that was the address at where I stayed back in 1998. Might come back there this coming summer.
BTW Karl was also a Dodger fan.
I think you may have stayed at The Gettysburg Hotel at #1 Lincoln Square. I live outside of town, but it is only about 3 miles from the hotel.
If you think you are coming back next year, be sure to look me up. It would be great to meet you.
If I decide to come it's a deal. Right know it's 75-25 that I'm coming.
Sorry you get ignored but that's the way the mop flops. I get very annoyed at what's happened to he Sea Beach, and believe me I'm more annoyed at what the TA has done to the N than you are with me. You have two choices. Stop reading my posts, or get in line and admit the obvious, that I have a point. As for the Montague rat hole, that is a personal thing with me. I have seen rats down there==that is no fish story and I thing that venue is disgusting. Sorry if you are not on board with this, but that's the way I feel. Get used to it.
I witnessed Fred spotting a rat down there, as a matter of fact.
"THERE'S ANOTHER ONE!!!!!"
For some reason unknown to me I actually think some people think I am putting them on when I tell them I actually see them. Well I actually do and have since my trip in 1999. They;re all over the damn tunnel but someone informed me the Nassau loop is even worse. I saw a picture of the station and the immediate entrance to the tunnel and boy it did look like a real old fashioned rat hole. I wish something could be done to exterminate those raunchy little bastards.
Well Fred, you'd have to eliminate rats in the WHOLE system; much less the Montague, would take a long time or it would be impossible to exterminate rats in the subway. There's rats all over the damn system, especially in the tunnels so you're going to have to deal with it.
There's always the Pied Piper.:)
Get the populace to stop throwing food onto the platforms and tracks, and then you have most of the battle won - if you feed them, you breed them. Get the homeless out of the syste - in Japan, there are no homeless on the trains, but you do see a few of them in the stations outside of the fare control areas. The subways close up after 1 am, and the police are polite but strict in keeping people from bedding down in the system, so there are no situations like on the A train, where whole cars are taken over by groups of smelly winos who flop over all the seats and urinate all over the floors.
I love the (7), but I can't really say it got the best of treatment. The headways are excellent, but's been stuck with rotting Rustbirds for years and years and years while the other IRTs (except for the (2)) (and usually the (5)) had nice, shiny R62s and R62As. It's only now when the Rustbirds are being scrapped that it's getting decent, comfortable cars.
[/railfan heresy]
The best treated line, all in all, is a tossup between the (Q) (especially in Manhattan where service is doubled by the presence of the circle and diamond, which are both identical there.) and the combination of the (E) and (F). The (D) does pretty good too. Excellent headways. Fast service. Reliable, comfortable rolling stock. I may not like the R46, appearance-wise, but they do their job fine, and among the better cars in the fleet. And the R32 and R68 are up there too.
It's easy to single out the (G) for worst line in the system, but I think we should grade this on a curve somwhat. Considering that it doesn't get the ridership that the lines going to/from Manhattan get (though it does get numbers that trump many other cities' rapid transit systems), it doesn't get treated half-bad. Its headways are nothing to cheear about, but it does run R46s (possibly out of the convience of using Jamiaca Yard.) Also, for a local, it does move pretty fast.
For the worst treated line with the most victims, I'd have to go with the (A). NYCT may call it their showcase line, but they sure don't treat it that way. It runs the two worst car classes in the B-divisions. The R44s are the only (mostly) stainless steel cars to rival the Rustbirds for noise and jerkiness, and like its brothers and cousins from St. Louis Car, they are rotting through (in the belly though, not the roof as with the R38-R42.) The R38's are not only rotting on the roof, but they are poorly lit, and can also be quite jerky in their motion. All in all a poor imitation of the R32. (though in their own way the R38's are actually quite attractive, among the best-looking in the fleet.) Add the miserable headways (easily the worst for an express in Manhattan), the confusing (for out-of-towners) multiple southern terminals (not excusable when only 2 out of 3 versions of the same letter goes to the airport!) and the fact that a line this long cannot afford such treatment, and you've got yourself a loser.
---Andrew
Good argument on the A, it does have pretty bad headways, especially for a express train [actually it doesn't have ENOUGH service] once it splits up btw Lefferts & the Rockaways and I say that a new designation should be created to eliminate confusion. The blue paint should have remained with the R44's after the GOH at least but it would of been nice if the R40M, R42 and R46 retained it also. The R38's are dependable bt they are falling apart,look it has "wonder tape" and the brown "superglue" on some of the roofs and the R40M/R42 has the rust developing.
With some fine tuning like express in Manhattan, over the Mann B and back to Coney Island, my train could be the best of the lot. It is an open cut after Fort Hamilton Parkway, it doesn't tear up neighborhoods or make the noise that other lines do, and it has those stops that are paced by those magnificent mini tunnels that give the rider a real rush. No one will ever convince me otherwise that the Sea Beach is the best line of all, but they can convince me that until the changes I mentioned are implemented it will not be what is could be.
Fred, I do agree that 'YOUR' line is not the same it once was since it got removed completely from the bridge in 1990 to the filthy & slow Montague, however it is going to take time. Look, I ride the Culver everyday & it hasn't seen regular Brooklyn express service since 1987 but unfortunately, the Sea Beach has a lot of holes to fill to restore it to what it once was.
A lot of holes to fill is an understatement Flatbush. Caverns would be a more approopriate word. If, however, we could get the N back on the bridge it would go a long way into restoring some respectability to my favorite line.
I'm not sure I understand your reaction to the A. The A is one of the few B Division lines with off-peak headways of under ten minutes, and R-38 easily beats the R-32 in terms of aesthetics, comfort, ride quality, noise, and lighting (though probably not longevity).
>>"..and R-38 easily beats the R-32 in terms of aesthetics, comfort, ride quality, noise, and lighting (though probably not longevity)."<<
In aesthetics & lighting, I'll side with you on that but on everything else, I think its the other way around, the R32 is the better car in quality, comfort & length of life but the R38's are more noisy than the 32's.
Personally, I like the look of the R38's better than the R32's. However, the R32's are better cars.
Lighting on the R38 is better than the R32?Are you insane? The lighting on the R38 looks so damn dull compared to the R32 which is nice and bright,the way it should be.
Well you earned a few points with that one. How anyone can say the R-38 is superior to the R-32 is beyond me. However, that is what Subtalk is all about---the right to express our opinions and have them respected. Capice now?
Its a close call between the A and G but I would say the Rarely (R) has them both beat.R rushhour headways are almost the worst in the system ,then the fact after 11 pm the R diappears from Manhattan Frustrating alot of people at the Lexington Ave station,and lastely R has some of the dirtiest cars.You can easly spot the difference between 46's regularly assigned to the R.The car insides are just the pits.
How does the R being a shuttle in Brooklyn after 11PM frustrate people at Lexington Av.? All they gotta do is take the W to Pacific St. and the R is there.What's so wrong with that? They'd have to be REALLY,REALLY lazy not to do that.C'mon give me a break.They have NOTHING to be frustrated about.They get frustrated cause they're stupid that's all.
To me the best subway lines are the 3, Q and V. I just like em alot for some reason.Well the 3 I like cause it's one of my fave numbers.I don't hate any subway line really.But after reading a few post's so far,let me tell you all one thing.NO I repeat,NO train line in the subway is inconsistant.There are no bad headways since all trains run at no more than 10min headway's everyday except for the A after Rockaway Blvd. which is every 15mins weekdays and 20mins on weekends.
If any train show's up after more than 10mins,then that means something went wrong or it is late for some reason,which ranges from the occasional troublesome school kids to some person that has no brains at all.So the point is,worst subway line? Sorry but there is no such thing as a bad subway line.
You like the three because it is one of your favorite numbers. How nice! Well my favorite number used to be #4, which happened to be the number on my favorite train---which the TA took off. Fortunately, it gave a letter N, which happens to be my favorite letter, but don't tell that to anyone in the TA because next I know the Sea Beach will get the letter X or some other non descript identity.
To me the best line is the Woodlawn line, first there always seems to be frequent service, Local in the Bronx less curves and timers than the 2,5, Express in Brooklyn, goes to Utica Ave instead of Flatbush,I really dont have a worst, but the 2 line is godawful long, especially from 241st to 96, pure torture, during rush hours ties up at 238th street, can be long waiting for the 5 to go into the Yard, The same for the 5 line leaving the Yard in morning rush. The Dyre Avenue line is really fun during rush hours with a redbird going express from 180 th to 149th street {in either direction} through the tunnel into Brooklyn, the old redbirds fly.It not the same feeling riding the R-142's, to me they dont goes as fast.
Hey Big G, your favorite line carries the #4 which was what the Sea Beach carried when the BMT used numbers, and that was until they merged it with the non-descript IND line. I have often wondered why the Woodlawn Line terminated at Utica when it could go all the way to New Lots Avenue.
It does go to New Lots Ave. during the late hours when the 3 isn't running.
I certainly agree with you when it comes to the "Q" train. It is a fast run and usually depenable. Unfortunately it isn't going to Coney Island in the meantime.
#3 West End Jeff
I certainly agree with you when it comes to the "Q" train. It is a fast run and usually depenable. Unfortunately it isn't going to Coney Island in the meantime.
All true, but even when Stillwell reopens, it won't be for long that the Q goes to Coney Island. I assume the Q will be cut to Brighton Beach, replacing the < Q >, and the D will probably return to the Brighton, replacing the Q to STillwell
If the T/A used their heads, they should run some < Q > trains to Coney Island, thus providing another express service to and from Coney Island.
#3 West End Jeff
My personal vote for the best subway LINE is the D. It is purely a selfish reason. As, I work on one end and live on the other. I hope that bridge NEVER reopens.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, how can you say that! My fondest wish is for the Manny B to reopen so I can get the Sea Beach back on the bridge. However, do they have to send the D back over to its earlier route? Is that a done deal? Since there are two Q's already do they really need another Brighton Line? Maybe they could keep the D right where is currently is.
The Q local is a continuation of the D, just that its a yellow bullet and it's a black Q on the inside. When the bridge reopens for 2004, it should be 2 6 Av services[B,D] on the north & 2 Broadway services[N,Q] on the south side and the local Q will go back to the D and the diamond Q MAY remain or the circle Q will shift to the Brighton express and the exp will not be used.
The best line is the one that will take me where I'm going with a minimum of time and crowding. The worst line is the one that doesn't.
Seriously, here are my reactions to each of the lines:
(1)
Pros: unparalleled variety, quick and interesting local, frequent off-peak service, takes me home
Cons: insufficient rush hour service, poor handling of problems, pointless skip-stop, very crowded
(2)
Pros: quick express run (47+), serpentine route in lower Manhattan
Cons: crowded, all R-142's, Bronx section is a drag
(3)
Pros: quick express run (47+), serpentine route in lower Manhattan, the last remaining railfan windows on the West Side
Cons: crowded
(4)
Pros: still has Redbirds, interesting route in the Bronx
Cons: very crowded, R-62's are dark
(5)
Pros: still has Redbirds, nice Bronx express run, Dyre branch is interesting
Cons: crowded
(6)
Pros: City Hall loop, frequent service
Cons: very crowded, all R-142A's, Bronx section is a drag
(7)
Pros: frequent service, interesting ride, serpentine route in LIC, still has lots of Redbirds
Cons: crowded, Redbirds are the most decrepit of the bunch
(A)
Pros: Rockaways, quick express in Brooklyn, R-38's
Cons: R-44's, slow CPW express
(B)
Pros: reliable
Cons: no weekend service, depressing IND stations
(C)
Pros: quick local, R-38's
Cons: trains too short, depressing IND stations
(D)
Pros: reliable
Cons: slow CPW express, should run local on weekends (see B)
(E)
Pros: near-guarantee of a railfan window
Cons: rush hour passengers are whiners, express run highly overrated
(F)
Pros: 63rd Street connector, occasional railfan window, Smith-9th
Cons: mostly R-46's, crowded, insufficient off-peak service, depressing IND stations
(G)
Pros: Smith-9th
Cons: R-46's, depressing IND stations, weekend passengers are whiners
(J)
Pros: interesting elevated run, S-curve, nice (though brief) Brooklyn express, Nassau line, R-42's
Cons: no weekend service to Fulton
(L)
Pros: interesting elevated line, detailed mosaics, R-42's
Cons: lots and lots of stations
(M)
Pros: Myrtle el, Nassau line, good view of interlockings at DeKalb and 9th Avenue, R-42's
Cons: no weekend service to Manhattan
(N)
Pros: Astoria el, 60th Street tunnel, Broadway BMT, Sea Beach line, R-40's
Cons: doesn't run through the yard anymore
(Q)
Pros: Broadway BMT, quick express run, R-40's
Cons: local sways and puts me to sleep
(R)
Pros: 11th Street cut, 60th Street tunnel, Broadway BMT
Cons: R-46's, boring local in Queens
(V)
Pros: provides useful service increase on 6th Avenue and on Queens local
Cons: R-46's, boring local in Queens, no weekend service
(W)
Pros: Astoria el, 60th Street tunnel, Broadway BMT, weekend R-40's, yard view
Cons: confusing service pattern, I find the West End deathly boring
Alright,here's my thoughts about some things you mentioned for some,not all,the lines....
1: You're right about the skip stop,it is pointless,makes me wonder why they did it in the first place.I came up with an idea of having the 1 run it's regular route with peak direction express service between 96 St. and 157 St. during rush hours while the 9 made all local stops between SF&Dyckman St.
2: What's wrong with it having all R142's? Sure they break down often but it can't have the redbird's forever.It's time to move on.Same thing goes with the 6 and having all R142A's.
B: Since the B mostly runs only between 145 St and 34St following the D train except it's local not express,is why they don't run the B on weekend's.It's simply not necessary.The C can handle CPW by itself with 10min headway's just fine.
C: Can't do anything about the short 8-car trains.That's only due to the shortage in car equipment and maybe a little to do with ridership.
J: I really hate that they don't run the J to Broad.It's only 2 stations for god sake's!1 of them a major transfer point in Fulton St.I wonder why people havn't complained like crazy about it.
L: I don't understand what you mean by lots and lots of stations.It's only a 37min trip,4mins more than the 7 train.It's not bad at all if you ask me.
M: No Manhattan weekend service simply because not too many people ride the J into Manhattan on weekend's so just having the J do it is good enough.
W: What's so confusing about the current service pattern? It runs between Astoria and CI 24/7 weekday's express in Manhattan and Brooklyn along 4th Ave and over the bridge.Late nights and weekend's entirely local and via tunnel.Is that really hard to understand?
1: Your proposed express would be bypassing some very busy local stops south of 137th. Not every express track needs to be used; with some ridership patterns, the best service plan is to run everything local.
2: I find them very uncomfortable and unpleasant.
B: What really annoys me about this is the way it wasn't even mentioned in the 7/22/01 service change brochures, which claimed that B/D service north of 34th was unchanged. Nothing about this was publicized until the map was released. There's no need for four weekend CPW services, but there should be two locals at all times. Given how little time the express saves, there's no reason local passengers should have to transfer at 59th to get to 6th Avenue.
C: The R-143's are relieving the car shortage. Rush hour C trains are crowded, at least in Manhattan. Off-peak trains aren't affected by the car shortage.
L: It just seems to drag on and on in Brooklyn. Just my opinion.
M: The weekend shuttle makes it hard to use the line. Perhaps a more useful route, on weekends if not weekdays, would be uptown via 6th or 8th.
W: It's not confusing to me but it is confusing to non-railfans. The map shows an N-R-W label at each local stop and has W bullets along both the tunnel and the bridge. Without scrutinizing the service guide, it's not clear when the W runs where. Someone who takes the W on a Sunday to a local stop may try to take the same W to the same local stop the next day.
M: The weekend shuttle makes it hard to use the line. Perhaps a more useful route, on weekends if not weekdays, would be uptown via 6th or 8th.
Now we're talking. Although, I don't feel the M needs to run WITH the J to Chambers on the Weekend (well, that should be Broad, but that's another story), it could be beneficial to run it up through Chrystie. Actually, I don't even know how necessary it is to run past Essex on the Nassau line at all.
My proposal would be to combine the M and the V. In doing this the J/Z headways would need to be increased a bit, and the J/Z skip/stop should run longer than just an hour during each rush hour.
Back to the M/V. One problem may be the 8-60 car foot train limit. The V may be able to handle only 8 cars if the headways are increased slightly at rush hours.
In addition, a C and M combination would also not be a bad idea, but I feel the M/V is the better of the two. With the C/M combo you wouldn't have the 8 car vs 10 car problem, however, something would need to replace the C between W 4th and Euclid. The V/M would just be a complete merge, the only station that would loose some service would be 2nd Avenue. My only sadness would be the loss of the "M" letter in this combination. They would probably keep the V because that route would become an "orange" route, and there are no orange "M's" in the rollsigns.
"With the C/M combo you wouldn't have the 8 car vs 10 car problem, however, something would need to replace the C between W 4th and Euclid."
Switch the C/E with the V/F in their entirety. See post 412975 as to why this is a good idea.
Hmmm, some interesting ideas. I missed that thread the first time around. Actually, I'm on my way out now, but maybe this evening I will have a chance to reread it and think about your ideas mentioned there to comment. I did however notice it would make a "true" 6th Ave line, which only the JFK has used in recent years (if I can call more than ten years ago "recent")
The V/M merge is definitely a good idea. A billion times better than killing off the Myrtle Avenue line entirely, as someone mentioned that the TA had actually considered this ("low ridership"), in the "BMT East vs. BMT South" thread. I even think it's better than sending the V to Church Avenue through the Rutgers Tunnel as has been discussed many times here.
But how crowded is the V during rush hours? Last I heard, V trains were filled to 52% capacity, but that was a while ago. If it's still in that range, then the V might be able to get away with 8-car trains of 60-footers. If not, then the C/M merge might be more suitable. The C/M merge would be perfect if the 6th and 8th Avenue Locals were swapped south of West 4th Street, like Al M. mentioned.
BTW, if you add two white vertical lines, one on either side of the V, you've got yourself an orange M bullet. Then you can keep the letter M in use.
A billion times better than killing off the Myrtle Avenue line entirely, as someone mentioned that the TA had actually considered this ("low ridership")
I remember reading that. That's insane. Anyone who says no one rides the M line (at least between Metro and Broad) or that it's not necessary has obviously never been on it at rush hours.
I know, I rode the M during rush hours a few times while in high school. It was definitely crowded. They need to improve service to Metro and eliminating service is not the way to do so.
I rode it on a weekend recently as the shuttle and it has good patronage as well but the stations could sure use improvement. Whoever said the M suffers from low ridership is sadly mistaken and looks like they don't ride/& know the M or doesn't ride the system much at all. The problem with the M is that it has shoddy headways and the service patterns is misused and flawed.
Send it to Midtown and boost its weekend headways. Then the problems would be solved.
You CAN'T boost weekend M service without extending it since it is only a shuttle on weekends. And how would you route the M to Midtown and get it back to the Broadway el without disrupting other lines?
Exactly. I would extend it, as the V train. The V would go to Metropolitan via the Chrystie Street connection, the same connection the old KK train used in the late 60s and 70s (but to Metro unlike the KK). I'd keep the M as a rush hour service. Would it really disrupt the F and J trains if the connection was reused? I really don't think it would.
Of course you would have to put R32's on the V b/c of car length limits and the E would have to swap its 32's for the V's R46's. With the headways the J, M & Z trains, it shouldn't really be a problem hey its better than the current terminal at 2 Av. But would it be local via Broadway el or express?
R32s would definitely have to run on the V in eight-car trains. I guess that would make the E a mix of R32s and R46s. I doubt all of the E's assigned 32s would be needed for an extended V.
That is a good question, about whether the V should be express or local on the Broadway el during rush hours. How much time does skipping Flushing Ave, Lorimer and Hewes save when the J skips them? I doubt three stations will make that much of a difference, especially with the merge at Marcy.
Well since the M is slow and rather infrequent, I suggest it runs on the local track but to prevent congestion, its better if it runs express and maybe move the J to the local track. The express saves what 3 minutes tops but it usually gets held at Myrtle Av (Jamaica bound) so it usually saves nothing.
Yeah, the # of riders between Metro. Av. and Bway/Myrtle are enough to make the (M) its own line. The (M) could use more service, but it is not badly needed.
I say bring it back to the Brighton line, it had more use and passengers than running on the West End. The headways for the shuttle is sufficient however weekday service could use a little boost plus people go gung ho on the W since it is express for FOUR stops and the express is usually a waste b/c the train gets held at 36 St waiting for a local and/or slows down in the express run.
I stated that too last Friday, bring the M back where it originally belongs, on the line with the best express service in the world, the Brighton line. (yea, it would still be a local to Coney Island but I can't resist telling about the beauty of my BMT.)
The M on the West End was supposed to be a "temporary" detour back in the late 80's but you know what happens in the MTA when a line is moved on a "temporary" basis.
Yes Flatbush41 LTD I know, just like the F line had rush hour express service in Brooklyn, and they eliminated that back sometime in 1987 (could be a year off), but told the riding public that it was a temporary measure that would last for only 4 years. Project was from East-Broadway to Coney Island. And I remember the station poster that said it all.
Yes Flatbush41 LTD I know, just like the F line had rush hour express service in Brooklyn, and they eliminated that back sometime in 1987 (could be a year off), but told the riding public that it was a temporary measure that would last for only 4 years. Project was from East-Broadway to Coney Island. And I remember the station poster that said it all.
BRING BACK THE M! BRING BACK THE BRIGHTON M!
Look at the Q, it was moved from the Broadway line to the 6 Av line "temporarily" in 1988 and it took 13 years [except for 1995 when it went via tunnel & express via B'way to 21 St Queensbridge] to come back to Broadway. If it were 2004, I would bring the M back to the Brighton line, and run the B with the W.
B --> back to pre 7/22/01
M --> Coney Island or Brighton Beach -> Brighton local ->tunnel ->Nassau St -> Metro Av
W --> runs with the B to replace the M on the West End weekdays providing a 6 Av service & a Broadway service on the same line.
I'd reverse the B and the W's hours of operation on West End. In other words, the B would replace the M.
BRING Back The BRIGHTON (M)!
Hell yeah, the Brighton (M) kicked ass! When I was small, I could take the (M) from Ridgewood all the way to Coney Island. Just one subway line. Now things have changed, the Stillwell Av. station sucks ass now. :(
BRING Back The BRIGHTON (M)!
Hell yeah, the Brighton (M) kicked ass! When I was small, I could take the (M) from Ridgewood all the way to Coney Island. Just one subway line. Now things have changed, the Stillwell Av. station sucks ass now. :(
L: I don't understand what you mean by lots and lots of stations.It's only a 37min trip,4mins more than the 7 train.It's not bad at all if you ask me.
I was a daily user of the line for many years, and believe me, it may not seem that bad, but even me as a railfan, was so glad when I FINALLY got to my station. Don't get me wrong, I really like the L line, and always did, and although the stations have probably the best mosaics in the system, they can be a drag - day after day. It seems like a very long run. The run can get pretty boring between Myrtle and Manhattan after a while - I probably know every inch of those stations, just from daily riding. That line is one line that would have really benefitted greatly if it was three tracks.
M: No Manhattan weekend service simply because not too many people ride the J into Manhattan on weekend's so just having the J do it is good enough.
Although I love the M Line, I have to agree. Running the M as a shuttle on weekends is probably good enough and a smart decision - even if it is a pain. The J can handle it.
The (L) line is only 24 stations, 19 Brooklyn and 5 Manhattan. I takes approx. 1 hour(or more) to complete one way.
Well, that seems to cover it pretty well.
Just some of my commentsopinions to add:
(1)
Pros: unparalleled variety,
I have to agree, the 1 gives great variety. I love the contract one stations, the 125th viaduct is a must ride, and one of the most interesting elevated runs in the system at it's northern end. (actually, I think the post 9/11 "1" was one of the greatest routes the system has ever had, now that was interesting-of course I hated what that did to the Broadway-7th ave line, but taking it individually as a route, it was a great route).
(5)
Pros: still has Redbirds, nice Bronx express run, Dyre branch is interesting
The Dyre Branch is my favorite route in the Bronx. The 5 leaves the el at E180, just before you get sick of it. I find the 2 routing very long, even for a railfan.
(6)
Pros: City Hall loop, frequent service
Probably the best run line in the system. Again, like the 1, I also love it because of the Contract 1 stations
Bronx section is a drag
I don't know, I kind of like the Pelham line.
(A)
Pros: Rockaways, quick express in Brooklyn
I love the Rockaway run. The A also has some great variety. I really like the Fulton Subway, and the Liberty el, and of course the Rockaway run. However, the 8th Ave/CPW line is probably my least favorite in Manhattan. Depressing IND stations at their worst. The great Duke Ellington route destroyed by timers.
(B)
Pros: reliable
Cons: no weekend service
Although, I'm not a big fan of the West End El, the B line goes way down in my "book" since the MB closure. Without that el included in it's route, whatever saving graces the A has, the B doesn't. Most of the B's run is everything I dislike about the A.
(C)
Cons: trains too short, depressing IND stations
Well let's not even go there. Let's just say that the C of the late 80's going from Bedford Park to Rockaway Park was one of the best lines in the system....now....well if I can't say anything nice, maybe I shouldn't say anything at all.
(J)
Pros: interesting elevated run, Nassau line, R-42's
I love the elevated run. The Nassau Line is the most interesting in the system, and the only line that beats the Nassau Line as my favorite in Manhattan is the Broadway line. And gotta love those R42's, a truly handsome train.
(L)
Pros: interesting elevated line, detailed mosaics, R-42's
The best mosaics in the system. One of the greatest variety - nothing beats the in-out-in-out of the Canarsie bound side east of Myrtle.
(M)
Pros: Myrtle el, Nassau line
What can I say, this is my line. Nothing beats the sentimental/nostalgic aspect of it for me, and see J for the rest of my comments.
(N)
Pros: Astoria el, 60th Street tunnel, Broadway BMT, Sea Beach line
Class-act line. Can't ask for more. The best thing that ever happened to the N was the N/R terminal switch.
(R)
Cons: R-46's, boring local in Queens
See last sentence in C line. (although I like the R46's)
(W)
Pros: Astoria el....
Cons: ....I find the West End deathly boring
One of the most interesting els, and one of the most boring els at opposite ends of the run. As for the routing itself, I neither like, nor dislike the W.
A lot of talk of recent has focused on which subway line was the best\worst.In my opinion as of right now THE WHOLE SYSTEM SUCKS!!!As an individual who has the preverbial need for speed,there is not one thing I like about the system today.Between the increase in timers and the modification of the cars new and old,whats to enjoy?Here is my list of the greatest express runs that I can remember,from the 1970s and 1980s-mid 90s
1.The Brighton Express
I will never forget the R-42s and the R-40ms with that screaming whine echoing off the walls of the trench between prospect and newkirk aves.
2.West 4th-34th both ways
the 2 sets of switches leaving west 4th were great.
3.Central Park West
59th to 42nd street(eigth ave)
unbelievable speed for a distance of less than a mile
4.Pacific street to 36th street
5.59th street to 36th street
I bet a lot of people forgot about this run,with the downgrade to 36th street you would hit close to 60 going over the switches.a truly awesome run
6.Roosevelt ave to Queens Plaza
7.Union Turnpike to Parsons Blvd
After passing Van Wyck Blvd,you would round the left turn,then barrel past Sutphin Blvd at 55-60MPH,a true classic that will never be forgotten by this highspeed railfan.
I will comment on the IRT later.
Boy do you need a reality check.
Explain??????????????????????
So the system sucks ONLY b/c of timers & that express runs are sligtly slower, come on give me a break, that has no merit for saying the whole system is bad. I will say this, it has gotten slower over the years & I agree that some real high speed runs is gone but we have to deal with it.
I think ur trying to say "MTA is not going your way." I assumed that u must have a bad day either at work or at home. OR I assumed you have ate the bad turkey on thursday.
As some or all T/O's that post here say and others just operating on the road, "Train rides are not roller coasters, we don't operate for your pure pleasure."
Ok, let me do evaluations of every line then.
1/9:Pros- builds up nice speed btw stations, frequent service
Cons- I agree with you
2:Pros- nice express run in Manhattan, on time usually
Cons- not enough off peak service, LONG local runs in the Bronx & Brooklyn
3:Pros- nice express run in Manhattan, nice speed btw stations after Utica Av, not too long, became 10 cars
Cons- starts too late on Sundays, not enough off peak service
4:Pros- Very fast express service; especially in Manhattan, consistent, frequent service
Cons- a)No 2 Av subway to help relieve crowding, b)express run too slow btw Nevins & Franklin
5:Pros- fast express service, still has Redbirds, Bronx through express
Cons- Same as 4
6:Pros- frequent service, Bronx peak express
Cons- Same as 4 & 5 in (a), miss the Redbirds
7:Pros- Flushing express, majority of line is still Redbirds[especially for the railfan window], nice speed btw local stations
Cons- feels like sardine cans when crowded
A:Pros- No stops for 2+ miles in the Rockaways, the R32 & R38[for the railfan window], good speed in the express runs
Cons- Not enough service off peak, easliy can get confused btw terminals, too many timers mainly on CPW
B:Pros- Hmm...
Cons- I agree with you
C:Pros- Helps the A out, introduced weekend service in Brooklyn
Cons- Too few cars, takes too long
D:Pros- express runs, reliable, 24 hour express service
Cosn- Too many timers on CPW, Concourse express is inconsistent
E:Pros- Frequent service, practically all R32
Cons- WAY too crowded rush hours, I agree the express is overrated but its important
F:Pros- Good headways during the rush, 24 hour express restored in Queens, pretty popular, occasional R32
Cons- Bad headways off peak, no Culver/Hillside express
G:Pros- Doesn't go through Manhattan
Cons- see my first post on this tpoic
J/Z:Pros- Efficient skip-stop service, good alternative to the E
Cons- Not enough service at all, only goes to Chambers weekends, express run should go to B'way Junction[Z trains]
L:Pros- Doesn't run with any line; I call it Lonely, R143's
Cons- Can get extremely crowded
M:Pros- R42's, almost a guarantee to get a seat
Cons- Doesn't run to Manhattan to provide extra service on the B'way el, infrequent service
N:Pros- Nice variety of rolling stock, 60 St tunnel
Cons- Not what it used to be, better known as Never
Q:Pros- consistent, trains are usually clean, good express runs with the R40's in Brooklyn exp
Cons- perfect (Q)can take longer than usual, not enough off peak service
R:Pros- 60 St tunnel, not much else
Cons- Better known as Rarely, boring, not much railfan opportunities, slow
V:Pros- Relieved some crowding on the F
Cons- Doesn't run on weekends, can't run to Brooklyn at the moment, people bashing it
W:Pros- express on weekdays with R68A's, 60 St tunnel
Cons- Shouldn't have been flipped with the N, West End is too slow at some points like btw Bay 50 and CI, not much to see
The W flipped with the N so that Astoria resident's could have 24/7 service to CI.If they didn't do that,it would've been a pitiful excuse for a train.At least now it has way more value than before 9/8/02.
here are my opinions on the other lines that David didn't mention (or not in detail)
<5>
Pros: One seat ride from Lexington Ave to White Plains Road, express in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and The Bronx, even had a train going opposite of peak direction at one time. Usually comes from the yard, so opposite peak direction delays usually don't affect service(immediately). Serves the lines with the highest ridership in Manhattan and the Bronx a favorite with many Bronx riders.
Cons: Doesn't come fast enough many times, sometimes doesn't run at all, off peak train canceled(most likely), only runs in one direction and doesn't run on weekends, doesn't even run during middays. Should run for at least over 3 hours, doesn't even run for 2 hours. Doesn't run to E 241st anymore and delays (2) service. Sometimes gets held at E 180 for a (2) train that it passed and has to wait for that train t ogo to Bronx Park East first.
<6>
Pros: Bronx Express during middays(and early evenings until 8:19pm), usually comes fast. Local and Express usually have different terminals to minimize confusion (some early evening/late rush hour locals go to Pelham Bay Park)
Cons: crowded, not fast enough at some points (12:30-1:00), and takes forever during the direction change while nothing but locals seem to show up doesn't run on weekends and only runs in one direction.
<7>
Pros: Runs middays and weekday evenings until 10:00pm
Cons: Doesn't run on weekends, only runs in one direction, can lead to confusion with local counterpart.
(9)
Pros: Runs skip stop in Both Directions, somewhat relieves crowding on the (1), only Bronx service to have stops skipped in both directions at a time.
Cons: Unable to actually run express like <5> and <6>, and doesn't really run outside of rush hour (although a few (9) trains are in service after the AM rush ends)
(Z)
Pros: Relieves crowding on the J with skip stop service
Cons: Doesn't run that long during rush hours (about one hour) and only runs in one direction
(9)
Pros: Runs skip stop in Both Directions, somewhat relieves crowding on the (1).
Uh oh, when David sees this...........
(Z)
Pros: Relieves crowding on the J with skip stop service
Cons: Doesn't run that long during rush hours (about one hour) and only runs in one direction
I agree with that. The J/Z is a skip stop that seems to run pretty well. It's major flaw is that it only runs about two hours a day (one hour in each direction). They should consider running it at least 2 to 3 hours each direction (at least peak direction anyway).
Yeah I know, the (Z)(the (J)'s express service) runs for a very short part of the weekend at around 4:00 PM- 5:30 PM. I think the (Z) should serve more hours.
My post didn't treat circles and diamonds separately. It also treated the 1/9 and the J/Z as one line each -- the 9 is simply a relabeled 1 and the Z is simply a relabeled J. (How do the 9 and Z relieve crowds? Combined rush hour 1/9 headways are barely any shorter than off-peak 1 headways. If there were no skip-stop, all the 1/9 trains would be 1 trains.)
I heard that the 1/9 line and crowding has improved since the 9 came back, and the (9) makes 1 less stop than the (1) does so if I were going to 242nd I would want to take the (9) instead of the (1)
Why? The line runs on 2 tracks btw 157 & Dyckman plus it doesn't utilize the middle track N of Dyckman & S of 157 St so you're actually losing/wasting time, however if it comes first then thats a different story. The 1/9 skip stop is a failure to me since it saves almost NO time. The J/Z skip stop is successful but that too is a failure b/c of the short time the Z runs & there's not enough service for both lines in general. The BMT lines except the L has the longest and worst headways.
that's what I mean, I would rather catch a (9) than a (1) if I were in a hurry
Hurry?Hurry for what? That's what pisses me off.EVERYONE is in a hurry these days!That's why they make such a big deal about express service.C'mon,give me a break.There's no need to be in a hurry.Just make sure you go to where you have to in plenty of time and that's the end of that.Hurry,hurry,hurry,that's gotten to the point of being absoulte BS already.
That's why they call it rush hour, that's why people would rather take the (5)/<5> instead of the (2).
Many people going to Parkchester would rather wait for a <6> than take a (6) and you can't blame them, passing 2-3 (6) trains is very good
You have to learn to accept that many people are in a hurry, why do you think the Lexington Avenue line is more crowded than the 7th Avenue line, it is quicker ride through Manhattan.
No, it's because the East Side IRT is the only subway line that serves the very densely populated Upper East Side, while the West Side IRT is one of two lines serving the similarly densely populated (but narrower) Upper West Side. Most mainline IRT passengers stay within Manhattan; very few travel between the Bronx and Brooklyn.
Your proposed explanation doesn't account for crowding on the locals. In fact, according to the statistics I've seen, the 6 and 1/9 are more crowded than the expresses.
Oh I accept that they're in a hurry alright,but there's no real reason to be.I mean honestly,wouldn't you rather just relax and take your time,take it easy after a long day at work or after whatever you did in the day? I know I would.Why should I have to go through more aggrevation from other people being in a hurry after I've been aggrevated enough earlier.I've learned to take it easy and look at several options to every situation and I'd rather look at several options than be thinking "express!express!" 30,000 times in 3hours.
Never let one thing and one thing only be your solo focus cause,it's gonna mess you up big time sooner or later.
But if you're waiting for a 1 or 9 north of 137 St, you may as well take the first train that comes since sometimes, when you let 1 train go, you may end up having to wait for some time. But as I said before, if a 9 comes first then it comes. And if you're in a hurry, you don't know which one is going to come first.
Service on the 1 was reduced just slightly (from combined 1/9 service) when the long-term post-9/11 plan went into effect. That's why skip-stop was suspended to begin with -- headways at skip-stop stations would have been too long. On 9/15/02, service at 1/9 skip-stop stations dropped considerably.
The crowds on the line don't come until 137th and points south. Between 137th and 96th, there was less service before 9/15, contributing to crowding. South of 96th, there was more local service, in theory, but the 2 was so erratically run that all was unpredictable. The 1/9 runs much better now than it ever did before 9/11, but I never found the post-9/11 1/2 perceptibly more crowded than the pre-9/11 1/9.
If you want to go to 242nd, take the first 1/9 train. Yes, the 9 may gain 15 seconds or so by bypassing one more stop, but it'll probably wait out those 15 seconds approaching the terminal. It's hardly worth waiting five minutes for a train that's 15 seconds faster, anyway. And, besides, since the 1 and 9 use the exact same tracks, whichever train leaves Chambers first is guaranteed to reach 242nd first unless one breaks down or is rerouted.
I think that the 9 should run as a rush hour express from chambers up to 137th (I know that the stations below 137 have considerable volume), this will get rid of most of the riders heading furthur uptown than 137 which will thereby reduce crowding on both the 1 below 137 (because riders will be waiting for the express) and on the A/C as well (because uptown riders will be more inclined to wait for the 9 that goes to their stop than take the painstakingly slow excuse for an express train up CPW and then waiting for the stupid slow elevator to take you down to the 1/9 at 168! Just a thought...
-Jeff
Here we go again. The 1/9 is crowded because it's a local. Running 9's express would force all those local passengers onto half as many trains. The local stations between 42nd and 96th have between 5 and 8+ million passengers each (no, wait, 59th probably has more). That's a lot of people for the current 12-20 tph local service, and you want to cut that in half? OTOH, the north end of the line gets more service than it needs.
Your plan sends twice as many trains to 242nd (1,684,036 fares in 2001, rank 218) as to 50th (8,052,456 fares in 2001, rank 32). Does that make sense to you?
I forgot the
Pros: Express in Brooklyn and is the only diamond to run express service (in areas where circle runs local) in both directions. Runs middays and weekday evenings until 9:00pm
Cons: Doesn't go to Coney Island and doesn't run on weekends
what happened to my ?
Whoa Dave! Please, just a minute. You said the R has the 11th Street cut. I was aware that the R never saw any outdoors, so I thought. Is the R now going outdoors?
"You said the R has the 11th Street cut. I was aware that the R never saw any outdoors, so I thought. Is the R now going outdoors?"
He doesn't mean cut the way you do.
However, if you are at the front of a Queens-bound R or at the back of a Manhattan bound one, you can see daylight where the N/W turns off and upward to Astoria.
I admire all the posts. You all have some intresting views of all our beloved subway lines. Here's my input:
Best subway line( the envelope please) and the awards go to:
IND: E train- though underground, runs pretty quick and frequent. Late night service overated, but functional.
BMT: Q-Diamond- Quickest train in the entire subway system. Those R40's should be dipped in gold when they are retired.
IRT: 6 train- Fastest of all locals, excellent Pelham Express and Local services, now 24 hour service, does not suffer service problems like the White Plains Road line.
Worst Subway line( the envelope please) and the awards go to:
IND: A train- Slowest overall services, too many southern terminals, those R44's need to go.
BMT: Entire Eastern Division, don't get me wrong, I like riding the J, M, Z, and L lines, but those stations are terrifying, especially at night e.g. Livonia Ave on the L line.
IRT: 2 train- Every weekend, Bronx service gets worse and worse. New R142's do not make up for bad service.
And the line with both Bad/Good service is:
S-Franklin Ave Shuttle- Good ontime performance, bad idea for 1 person to run the train alone. Although rebuilt, still runs through rough neighborhoods(no offense meant to communities of Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights, and Ebbets Field).
Why's it a bad idea for 1 person to run the train alone? It's only 2 cars and there never is much,if any,problem's at all
Thats true, look at the G, its OPTO 24 hours a day and the shuttle is 2 cars so that's no problem.
>>>"look at the G, its OPTO 24 hours a day"<<<
SINCE WHEN??? Even being an infrequent rider, when I rode on
15 November southbound from Nassau Avenue @1700 and then doing
train watching at Hoyt/Schermerhorn for 25 minutes and returning
at 2130 Hours northbound, each I observed was staffed with
a C/R. Unless the TA has a new control system for OPTO operated
from the LAST CAR!!!!!
;-) Sparky
Oh my fault, I meant the Franklin shuttle is OPTO 24 hours and the G is 4 cars 24 hours a day.
O.K. 300' foot trains 24/7 with OPTO on weekends.
;-) Sparky
O.K. 300' foot trains 24/7 with OPTO on weekends.
Sometimes, as of late, I've seen C/R's on G trains on the weekend
O.K. You know most who answered this tread have commented that
we riders of the have been screwed by the TA. Weekdays during
the day, YES. But flip the coin over and being my age, I remember
180' trains of arnines on weekends on the . There have been
some positive gains for us "Greenpointers".
;-) Sparky
Worst Subway line( the envelope please) and the awards go to:
IND: A train- Slowest overall services, too many southern terminals, those R44's need to go.
There seems to be some myth that the A is extremely slow, and runs infrequently. For one, even with all the timers, the A can really save a lot of time over the C. If you ride from 125th or points north, it's well worth it to pass-up a C train during the rush hour. Ditto for people who live at Utica or points east of there. Plus, the A runs close to twice as many trains as the C. You might have a point about the terminal thing, but the 5 has just as many terminals (Rockaway Pk. doesn't count, as rush hour EXTRAS go there)
The B,C,D,G,J/Z,M,N,and R trains are all easily worse than the A.
In general, the BMT lines except the L has bad sevice take the N for example, you don't see 4-5 minute headways anymore since it became a Broadway local and has gotten so slow[except via 4 Av express] but the M, R & Rockaway Pk shuttle EASILY beats out the A AND every other line in bad headways.
You know, it's really not true about the BMT. Broadway express service operates at substantial headways. Q service runs just as frequent as Fulton St. service. The BMT south operates very well, considering the fact that is serves less people than the Queens Blvd. corridor.
The BMT east is a different story. Still runs better than the G line.
The Q is good but the BMT does get screwed, especially the J/Z, M, N and R. I'll explain:
J/Z: Skip stop service is ONLY 1 1/2 hours, suffers from bad headways all together, has the worst GO's[24 min headways during some GO's], Nassau St is the worst trunk line in Manhattan and with realignment makes things worse, Chambers St and no express service east of Myrtle Av[well skip stop is good enough]. I agree that they do get a little better treatment than the G but it iss run like a 3rd class system.
M: Only cut back to a shuttle weekends, awful headways; the line altogether is flawed on weekdays.
N: Lost its glory days once it moved to the Montague tunneel from Manny B in 1990, NEVER the same, got its moniker "Never" as a result, lost popularity and direct express service from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
R: R46's perform worse than R46's on the F and V, extremely slow, has to go through torture[the slow area at City Hall] in lower Manhattan with the N, easily has the worst headways [although the C is very close] in the whole system.
The best hands down is the #7 line, always running with little problems.
The worst is its Astoria N counterpart who tend to make you wait at Queensboro Plaza for more than 8 mins to even upto 15 mins at rush hour. you can literally watch 14 #7 trains pass by while you stand there freezing. Even the W line didn't resolve the delay problem :-/
Best lines: L, Q diamond, 7
Worst lines: 2, N, R, G
Why is the N the worst line? Is it because the TA has emascualted it or is it just a lousy line period. If the reason is the former I can understand it and accept it. If it is the latter, then this is the beginning of the Battle of Stalingrad.
Lousy headways, runs via the tunnel, etc.
Accepted. It certainly isn't what it used to be.
The best line is the # 6 Line. The #6 line runs good headways and have R142A's which have very little problems. The only problems we have are the riders that cause delays.
My vote for the worst line is # 2 Line. It runs long headways and always late because they wait for other lines like the #3,5 Lines. On weekend GO's they even wait on #1,4 Trains.
The #2 only has one stop by itself (sometimes even that has another line on it because of delays in #2 service)
I know that all too well! Working on the # 5 Line on Wkends I have been rerouted to Flatbush and E 241 St.
If you weren't rerouted b/c of a GO, how did you end up at Flatbush Av on a weekend?
I was rerouted to Flatbush because a # 2 Train had a sick customer at Boro Hall. They needed service to Flatbush so I was the picked out at random on my last trip. Then as I was leaving Nevins St the # 2 train was on the move.
how often does that happen?
Do you know if the #5(and #3) ran express at night during 1997-1998 during Lenox Rehabilitation
A # 5 train is get reroute via the # 2 Line to Flatbush or E 241 street only when the # 2 has a major delay. I only was rerouted to Flat Once and Once to E 241 but they were two diffrent days.
The Great One would be interested in knowing that a borrowed #5 train for 2 service went to Utica Av during the start of the rush, yesterday afternoon. Do we have a scheduled interval on the 2 that goes to Utica on the PMs?
-Stef
Ok at the start of the PM Rush there are about four # 2 Trains that come out of New Lots YD. At the end of the rush hour there are a few #2,4,5 trains that go to New Lots YD. They discharge at Utica and run light from there. This way there are fewer delays at New Lots Term. Same thing during the Morning Rush but when they come from the YD they go in service at New Lots.
On Wkends some # 2 trains come from NLY but they run light to Flatbush. They do a reverse move at Eastern Pway or Nevins St Spur.
was it a redbird?
R-142.
-Stef
>>>"was it a redbird?"<<<
...}R-142{...
OH, i dun thinkit it was a 6688!!!
:) Sparky
You have a valid argument there on the 2, it has LONG local segments in Brooklyn & the Bronx and as you said, the routes it runs with & GO's make a trip seem longer.
Best IND line D
Best BMT line Q[although it may be considered a IND line]
Best IRT line 4
Worst IND line G
Worst BMT line R but the BMT is treated as a 3rd class system
Worst IRT line 2 as much as I like the 2, the long local stretches takes it toll
The worst subway line is the Lex Express at rush hour, with slow speeds and packed trains.
The best subway line is the Lex Express any time other than rush hour, with frequent service on a fast, direct route.
My personal assessments of each line:
1/9) PROS: Good headways; only line to have elevated stops in Manhattan; nicely restored stations below 66th; 1908-vintage el stops; great views at 125th and 225th and of 207th facility; good local speed 137th to Dyckman.
CONS: No railfan window; cramped R62A bucket seats; very crowded; too many closely spaced stops in midtown; waste of empty express track 96th to 137th; too many 'express' stops on rush-hour skip-stop.
2) PROS: Very long Bronx el with great views at Gun Hill and of yards; good local speed in north Bronx; fast Manhattan express.
CONS: Loss of Redbirds and clear railfan window; inaccurate automated announcements on 142s; very slow in south Bronx; very slow and dull through Clark tube and entirely underground Brooklyn segment.
3) PROS: Unusual exposed terminal in Harlem; railfan windows usually available; fast Manhattan express; only IRT el in Brooklyn.
CONS: Can be foreboding to ride at both extremities in off-hours; slow and dull Chambers through Utica.
4) PROS: Bronx el has nice view of yards and very good local speed through Bedford Park; great express in Manhattan and Brooklyn well handled by 142As; still some Redbirds; decent headways.
CONS: Horrible peak overcrowding from both ends; Cramped R62 bucket seats often cause disputes; Frequent unannounced weekend local service in Manhattan.
5) PROS: Dyre ROW and excellent speed therein; great express in Manhattan well handled by 142s; still many Redbirds.
CONS: Slow peak Bronx and Brooklyn express not worth it due numerous merging delays at Mott and Rogers junctions; confusing, unpredictable peak-hour terminal parameters at both ends causes boarding delays; often eliminated or truncated on weekends without proper fanfare.
6) PROS: Good views from Bronx el at river bridge and Parkchester to Pelham; great local speed 59th-138th; nicely redone underground stations in Manhattan; clear delineation of Bronx local and express services; excellent headways.
CONS: No more variety of equipment or railfan window; very annoying whining 142As; automated announcements badly out of date; scary underground Bronx stations; inconsistent speed on Bronx express; horrible overcrowding in upper Manhattan.
7) PROS: Great elevated views from only Queens IRT; still many Redbirds; railfan window in Manhattan-bound 62As; wonderfully fast elevated express; sole provider on line means few merging delays.
CONS: Horrible overcrowding, especially on weekends, causing added problems on 62A bucket seats; frustrating outbound local/express guessing games due in part to sporadic announcements; painfully slow Steinway tube; frequent weekend GO service disruptions.
A) PROS: Trestle over Jamaica Bay, bucolic oceanfront el and generous underground express on CPW and Fulton a railfan's paradise; relative variety of equipment; very good speed even on short express runs (59-42; 34-14; Utica-Nostrand); sheer length and scope of line.
CONS: Express speeds vary widely by equipment, clunky R44s frequently outnumbering better 32s and 38s; wistful nostalgia for days of much faster 1/9s, 10s and Slants; split branches cause long headways, especially on weekends; sign and announcement inconsistencies of branch identity; frequent weekend GOs cancel crucial JFK/Rockaway branch with spotty announcements and badly misguided posted advisories ("Shuttle buses replace service between Rockaway Boulevard and Beach 98th Street").
B) PROS: Hard to think of any, but does provide convenient direct weekday CPW/6th Avenue link throughout day.
CONS: All local; all underground; all 68s; merging confusion with D at 59th downtown; clumsy wrong-rail terminus at 34th; long rush-hour Bronx local headways; scary CPW and Concourse local stations.
C) PROS: Allows for much-needed A express in Brooklyn; always a railfan window for quirky track pattern above 59th; good 32/38 local speed along CPW and in Brooklyn.
CONS: All local, all underground; many merging delays with A, B and E; popular with homeless due to bench seats and permanent undergroundedness; long weekend headways; scary CPW, Fulton and Pitkin local stations.
D) PROS: Potential for speed on CPW and Concourse express; interesting Concourse station layouts; only B Division line in Bronx.
CONS: All underground; all 68s, which lack railfan window AND seldom fulfill potential on expresses (speed under Harlem River and along Concourse local often superior to CPW and Concourse express!!); wistful nostalgia for speedy 1/9s, 32s and 42s- and 1967-'85, when this was considered the BEST line by many railfans; long wait for crew switch at Bedford Park.
E) PROS: R32s' speed and railfan window uphold high standards of Queens express; nice speed through 53rd tube and along 8th Avenue local as well; good weekend headways when no GOs.
CONS: All underground; horrible rush-hour overcrowding by V-phobes; merging delays (and inbound guessing games) with V at Queens Plaza; mostly lengthy, inconvenient transfers to other lines in Midtown; even more popular with homeless than the C- no discharge of passengers at either terminal.
F) PROS: Full-time Queens express with good off-peak speed; very good local speed 179th-Kew and 34th all the way to Church, including fast Rutgers tube; less crowding and congestion delays due to 63rd rerouting; some 32s; Smith-9th viaduct; pleasant Brooklyn el (although minus its best parts, views of the yard and amusement area); very good headways.
CONS: Hard to get 32s on purpose; scary lower East Side and underground Brooklyn stations; bad peak overcrowding in inner Brooklyn.
G) PROS: Big improvement in weekday service without Queens Boulevard leg; good local speed under Creek through to Myrt/Willoughby; enuncumbered by peak-hour Manhattan congestion; Smith-9th viaduct.
CONS: All local; almost entirely underground; bad weekday overcrowding at disembodied Court Square terminus and Metro/Lorimer transfer; awkward Smith-9th terminus; scary stations; lacking obvious transfers to Broadway el, most lines in downtown Brooklyn.
J/Z) PROS: Extremely long el, offering extensive tour of working-class Brooklyn and Queens; view of Junction and ENY yard; Willy B; always a railfan window; good historical study of ancient el structures and underdeveloped Nassau tunnels, with many turnouts to defunct or nonexistent lines.
CONS: Except for short peak directional express, very slow local run; further slowed by many sharp curves; trains fairly deserted and scary at night; very scary and rundown underground stations; skip-stop express doesn't save time and often not run properly (J skipping Kosciusko; Z stopping at Alabama); very long headways on weekends; frequent midday and weekend GO disruptions.
L) PROS: Unusual el more resembles railroad ROW; quirky outbound single track embankment along cemetery; spectacular steep climb from tunnel to el; good view of Junction and ENY yard; beautiful mosiacs in underground stations; good speed through 14th tube, Morgan through Wilson, and Livonia through East 105th; still some railfan windows.
CONS: All local; underground deeper into Brooklyn than expected; bad crowding on weekends indicative of need for more service; very scary underground and elevated stations- the latter very rundown, some with narrow platforms.
M) PROS: Interesting dedicated elevated ROW in Queens; last vestiges of original Myrtle el visible; weekday service adds many bonuses: Willy B; historical Nassau line and 9th Avenue approaches; most of West End el in rush hour; always a railfan window for this extended run; amusing incongruity of high-tech 143s on ancient elevated structure for weekend shuttle.
CONS: Painfully slow local on weekday extension (speedy Mod 40s and 42s only allowed to show their stuff in Montague tube); inconsistent headway; many merging delays at Myrtle, Marcy, Pacific and 36th; scary at night.
N) PROS: Highly unusual Sea Beach ROW cut; return of full-time 4th Avenue express; less 68s during the week and none for weekend shuttle; many Slants; short but scenic Astoria el during week; very fast 60th and Montague tubes, as well as 4th Avenue; good local speed outside as far as Bay Parkway.
CONS: Excruitiangly slow weekday local through downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan trackage shared with other lines; loss of Coney terminus and views of yard on approach; inconsistent headways during week; dilapidated stations in cut.
Q) PROS: For weekday express, as good as it gets: very fast express underground in Manhattan and unusual outdoor contours (cut, embankment) in Brooklyn; Slants offering premier railfan window; Manny B crossing; very fast tunnel under Prospect Park. Overall, commendable for full-time Manhattan express, bridge crossing and dramatic ocean views. Very good headways on both local and express.
CONS: Local service only on weekends, provided by slow, whiny 68s. Much congestion going into confusingly designed 57th terminus; some embankment stations run-down with very narrow platforms; loss of approach to Coney.
R) PROS: Great speed through 60th and Montague tubes; also good in Queens and along lower 4th Avenue; generally reliable weekdays.
CONS: All local; all underground; mostly 46s; legendary drag through Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn; frequent weekend GO disruptions; boring faux art deco local stations along 4th Avenue.
S- ROCKAWAY PARK: PROS: Nice ride across bay and along ocean; interesting terminus retains look from LIRR days.
CONS: Always R44s; seldom runs weekends due to GOs; very long headways; ill-timed connections at Broad Channel.
FRANKLIN: PROS: Beautiful restoration of historic line; rarely seen backyard view of residential 'inner city' Brooklyn; new free transfer to IRT mainline.
CONS: Always 68s; scary at night.
V- PROS: We-ell, if you live near a Queens local stop and work on East 53rd, it has SOME redeeming value; seldom crowded.
CONS: All local (only perks up for 53rd tube); all underground; never a railfan window; confusing terminal setup at 2nd Avenue; people still don't understand it, causing long boarding delays.
W- PROS: Els on both ends that offer nice views of bridges- Triboro in Queens, Verrazano in Brooklyn; only line that presently goes all the way to Coney; historic 9th Avenue approaches; fast 60th tube; weekday over Manny B and express along Broadway and 4th Avenue; some Slants on weekends when, unfortunately, runs entirely local and through Montague; skips DeKalb during week.
CONS: No railfan windows during week when best potential for speed exists; SLOWWW on weekend routing; annoying weekday switch delays at 34th; frequent, confusing weekend GO disruptions in Brooklyn.
Having said all this, I'd say that as far as my personal railfan priorities, the best lines are the 5, A and Q; the worst, the B, R and V. On commuting and service terms, the best are probably the 6, F and Q; the worst, the 5, C and M.
Is this thread even still ALIVE???
Better enjoy the Redbirds on the # 5 Line while you can they won't be around much longer. The Most R33's in service I hear is less then 10 sets.
You gave a good assessment of the Lines.
70 Cars are being held on reserve. These are the cars emerging from the shop with new wheels...
-Stef
M) .... CONS: .....scary at night.
Scary at night? At night it's shuttle from Metropolitan to Myrtle. The neighborhoods from Metro to Wyckoff are HARDLY bad neighborhoods, and Knickerbocker is marginal, if a bit decrepid. It does get a bit grungy at Myrtle and Central, but scary? I don't think the area from Myrtle to Knickerbocker is any worse than many neighborhoods other lines run through for much longer runs.
I would not call the M a scary line to ride at night.
I agree, I love the (M) line, and I don't find it that scary. I've been through Broadway and Bed-Stuy many times at night, and it really isn't that bad.
The (L) isn't that bad either. The view of Bway Junction kicks ass at night! And I love Myrtle Av.-Lorimer St. at night. However I'll agree that Livonia Av. and Sutter Av. aren't safe. The view of the Brownville Projects is scary, well just as long as you don't get off at those stations.
However I'll agree that Livonia Av. and Sutter Av. aren't safe.
Yeah, the middle of the end of the L line el, and the Livonia El do run through some run down areas. However, even those areas have improved quite a bit. The last time I rode the Livonia El, about 10 years ago, the neighborhood was a real hellhole. Then back in October I rode it again for the first time in all those years. I was amazed at how much the area has improved along the el. It was still deteriorated, but no where near as bad as I remembered it. I see no problem riding it during the day. You may not weant to get off at some of the stations in the more desolate parts of the run at night though.
Many areas of Brooklyn (and the Bronx) have improved greatly over the last decade. I remember riding the J line between Eastern Parkway Broadway Junction and Myrtle along Broadway, and the burnt out or abandoned buildings out numbered the in use buildings (which were also a wreck). Now it is harder to find an abandoned building. Many of those buildings now have windows in them after decades of abandonment. Sure it has a long way to becoming a viable neighborhood again, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Sure it has a long way to becoming a viable neighborhood again, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
As we're talking about an elevated line, that's definitely a mixed metaphor!
The elevated section of the L is ugly and dark and the locations of the entrances/exits is unsatisfactory [see E 105 St and you'll know what I mean] and its a hot spot for crime alright. When I rode the GO recently, it looked like a abandoned railine and it was awful but other than that, the line is nice.
As far as service goes, the 2 is the worst subway line. Period. I include all the subway lines in every city around the world when I say this. Between 8:30AM and 9:30AM, the Southbound 2 has 30 minute headways. There is nothing anyone on this board can say to change my mind. NOTHING. Just this morning I got to work a half hour late because of the piece of trash known as the 2. The East Side may be more crowded, but at least the trains come. The West Side IRT is basically useless because of the service. It seems everyday something goes wrong.
Between 8:30AM and 9:30AM, the Southbound 2 has 30 minute headways.
I severely doubt that.
Although I do agree that they do need to increase service on all three of West Side Lines.
Between 8:30AM and 9:30AM, the Southbound 2 has 30 minute headways.
That's news to me. I take the s/b 2 or 3 almost every weekday morning a bit after 8:30. I take it from 34th to 14th, where I change to the 1/9 to Houston. My best estimate is that headways on the 2 are maybe seven or eight minutes, tops. There's generally a train arriving every few minutes, and they seem evenly split between 2's and 3's.
Why do you do that if you can take the 1/9 AT 34th St. already?
express vs local
Don't give me that crap! It's only 28th,23rd and 18th Sts he's skipping!He only saves a mintue,hell he doesn't even save anything AT ALL if the 1 or 9 aren't there or it isn't even between 34 and 14 Sts! Damn this "Express vs. Local" crap seriously pisses me off!When are people gonna learn that it doesn't make a damn difference wether you take a local or an express!? -screams in frustration at every subway rider's stupidity-
crap? what is your problem? ok, what is wrong with people taking the express? ok, many times it DOES make a difference what train you take. Why do you think they had 2 extra (3) trains that came from/went to E 238 Street post 9/11? for direct express service in Manhattan to the Bronx.
Did you have a bad experience with an express train?
Why do you think they had 2 extra (3) trains that came from/went to E 238 Street post 9/11?
Because the 3 was lengthened to ten cars, and not all of Lenox Yard can hold ten-car trains, so a few trains have to be laid up in the Bronx overnight.
for direct express service in Manhattan to the Bronx.
Um, no.
----
Because the 3 was lengthened to ten cars, and not all of Lenox Yard can hold ten-car trains, so a few trains have to be laid up in the Bronx overnight
----
The (3) trains that were laid up overnight because of this were the ones that terminated at E 180 Street (now they terminate at 96 St). In that case, they could have put all of the (3)s in 180 St yard instead of 239 St yard (unless it was full) if they didn't have WPR in mind (or run lite to 239 St yard).
No,no bad experience at all.It's just that everyone always has to be in a rush and I just can't stand it anymore.What's the use of being in a rush? I can't believe people rather get frustrated and all that instead of just relaxing and enjoying the trip without caring when they get to thier destination.I've learned to take everything in life as easy as possible cause it really isn't worth straining your brain over every single thing in life.
That's why I get so pissed when people go for an express or when they ask if it's a local or express,which happens all the time on the 7. That's why rider's get so angry,you see so many crazy disputes etc,etc. I think they just gotta take it easy and just sit and enjoy thier trip to thier destination instead of rushing straight for an express when they see one.To me,being in a rush,isn't the way to go.
What do you think about the (6) and <6>? many people who go to Parkchester avoid the local (you can't blame them, <6> skips 9 stops). Even the people at Hunts Point may enjoy the <6>. Then there is the (2) and (5)/<5> situation. E 238 St and E 180 St are popular places to bypass a (2) and wait for a <5>/(5).
Well I mostly take the <6> since I go to or come from Pelham Bay more than I do Parkchester.But to me,that one isn't so bad.I can't really say too much more about the 6 since I don't take it as often as ll the other lines.There's no diff in the 5 circle and 5 diamond scenario.5 trains that go to Dyre Av. will always be circled and the the 5 diamond is for those trips to 238 St.The rider's can do whatever they want but I don't pity them when they go from a local to an exp only to get off one stop later. Ex: 72St-42St. They only skip 3 stops,so that's nothing at all. To me,taking an exp. to skip no more than 5 local stops is a complete waste of time.I can just stay seated on a local instead of giving up my seat to get crapped up on an exp. when I really to don't need to.
I was mainly referring to taking the (2) or the <5> in the Bronx (since the <5> skips 7 stops)
Hey, if people want to take an express over a local it is their business. Why should you stress yourself, they don't give a damn about you. Get A strees ball. GEEZ.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey what can I say? I just can't stand it when they do it.It's that simple.
>>>>I've learned to take everything in life as easy as possible cause it really isn't worth straining your brain over every single thing in life.<<<
You could've fooled me. 8_)
Peace,
ANDEE
I know how you can keep from getting pissed off. Take the bus Mr. B47Bus.
Fred, it's a she.
Peace,
ANDEE
"When are people gonna learn that it doesn't make a damn difference wether you take a local or an express!?"
You don't advance your cause by making your own absurd generalizations in respone to other people's absurd generalizations. True, from 34th to Houston it's pretty bizzare to take an express and a local; on average you'll lose time though if you are REALLY lucky it can save you quite a bit of time by allowing you to catch up to the previous local. But if you're going from 96th to Chambers, the express is worth waiting for unless it's late night or early morning on a weekend.
There IS a seven minute difference between taking the Q diamond express and Q local. Ten minutes saved on the Lex 4 and 5 as opposed to the 6 local (except of course during rush hours). Six minutes on the #7 line, as well as the E train vs. the V line. And a whopping 20 minutes on the A from 168th to Euclid as opposed to the slow a-- Charlie line (assuming that 59th and Jay towers don't put the holding lights on the A because the train is running hot or waiting for an connection.) So for most people it DOES make a difference, especially when you ride the city's best and fastest part time line, the Q diamond Express, no timers south of Prospect Park and speeds in excess of nearly 50 mph on a R40 slant.
Where do you get 20 minutes on the A vs. C? The schedules show half that, and my own timing experiments support the schedules. Depending on how far you're going and what time of day it is, the C will often get you to your destination sooner than the A.
The V takes under four minutes longer than the E to get from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. If the V pulls in first, it may get you into Manhattan sooner than waiting for an E; on average, it will get you into Manhattan no more than two minutes later (since the E saves about four minutes once it comes but the average wait is two minutes at its shortest).
Speeds are not "in excess of nearly 50 mph" (whatever that means) on the Brighton express. I've watched the speedometer and it never hit 40, and, no, this wasn't a particularly slow trip. The West Side IRT, OTOH, routinely reaches the upper 40's and has been known to hit 50.
>>"Speeds are not "in excess of nearly 50 mph" (whatever that means) on the Brighton express. I've watched the speedometer and it never hit 40, and, no, this wasn't a particularly slow trip. The West Side IRT, OTOH, routinely reaches the upper 40's and has been known to hit 50."<<
That's true, the slants normally don't reach 50 [an R32 probably would] in fact the slants barely touch 40 on the Q, the train feels like it goes very fast but in reality goes a "little slower" than you actually think. On the Queens Blvd express one time I had a E train that went 51mph, and through the 60 St tunnel if there is no interference you easily reach 50-55 mph there [I prefer a R68A(if I ride the N or W) for some through there for some reason]. The IRT expresses reaching 40+ is normal, that's why its called the IRT. If the R44's were to ever go back to 65mph as a max, it would be the speediest/great run in the whole system via the 3 mile+ straight run in Queens.
This test run of mine on the Brighton express was on an R-32. Top speed 38, according to the speedometer.
Most express runs seem faster than they are. Most local runs seem slower than they are.
I agree at SOME points, there is almost no savings of time. Some examples are btw West 4 St and 59 St/Columbus Circle on the A, btw Atlantic Av & Franklin Av on the 4 and 5 and the Bronx thru express on the 5 but that is due to being forced to wait for the 2 sometimes but on most of the express runs they DO save time. How can you call that subway riders stupidity, so if that is stupid then call the engineers who built the system this way stupid! You really have to calm down V Train, I think you are taking this a little too seriously.
I can cause I've seen them do so much stupid crap everytime I'm in the subway that I can practically write a 500 page book about every single thing I've seen.It's that damn ridiculous,it truly is.
We all could, trust me on that one. Sometimes I'd rather keep my seat on a local, especially if the express is packed and I have been on locals that beat expresses by a longshot. The skip stop on the 1/9 doesn't save much time or any at all so that should be abolished and create a peak direction express service but the problem is that there is 5 stations [157-Dyckman] that are 2 tracked so that may not work, its worth giving a try. The J/Z skip stop however is a success but there is not enough service, it runs for only a hour and a half, all the S curves and timers on them really wastes time and the line needs to be overhauled in some sections.
You're right that the 1/9 skip stop should be eliminated but just like with the B82 bus,the TA planners don't want to admit they made a huge mistake by making things the way they were.It's all about thier crappy pride.I've thought up an idea that is much better than the skip stop which has the 1 running from 242-SF all times but EXP from 157St-96 St toward SF in the AM,toward 242 in the PM and the 9 can serve those stations skipped by the 1 and end at Dyckman.That sound's pretty good to me.
The reason for there only being J/Z skip stop in 1 direction for 1 hour in the morning and evening is that people didn't want to be inconvienced waiting 10mins for a train in both directions so they figured,6 Z trains in the morning and 6 Z's in the evening would be a good solution and you know what? It sound's pretty good to me. That's what they should've done with the 1/9 in the 1st place but then again there's no need for that skip stop so it has to go,go GO!!!
I agree with his plan for the 1-9. I know there are a lot of riders who use the stations between 157-96, but the train is usually already crowded by the time it gets to 157th and the added 9's that start at dyckman should help alleviate that also.
-Jeff
Uhhhh...I'm a SHE! not a he.
Then disregard my last post to you. Do NOT take the bus, take the train. And while you're at it, treat yourself to ride on the best train of all. Why, of course, my SEA BEACH.
The train doesn't get me to the aiport or malls like Kings Plz or shopping centers like Bay Terrance and Bay Plz.I gotta take the bus to get to those places.And of course if I ever need the N then I will take it,but unfortuantely as it is now,it isn't very helpful.
Maybe we should have a subtalk vote on this matter. What's the better line? Fred's Sea Beach Line or my Brighton Line. At least you can take a great shot of the Atlantic Ocean from my line as the train curves into Brighton Beach station. Maybe the best shots on the Sea Beach line are the Brooklyn Queens Expressway and the adjacent SBRW freight line.
Hey, the Brighton line is my home line too :-D! Plus you have a nice view from the Manhattan bridge.
The Brighton is obviously the better of the 4 lines that go to CI. Although now it's only the West End.
I've heard that song before. When Stillwell work is completed my train will then have its view of the ocean. Are you sure you're not Brighton Express Bob under a new handle? It would be just like him to pull some stunt like that.
Sounds as if yet another Brighton-Sea Beach debate is brewing.:)
No I'm not Brighton Bob, I'm David (as in my handle Kool-D) and I don't imitate people so in no way I'm Brighton Bob. But it's nice to know that like you say about the view of the Atlantic Ocean from your Sea Beach N in May 2004, look over to your right because I will be on the next platform admiring the same view as you are.
It's a deal---unless the TA pulls another fast one and keeps the Sea Beach at 86th Street.
sorry....
Oh no, please don't bring up the B82 :-X. In all seriousness, your plan is good but watch others shoot it down. I'd support that over this lousy skip stop service on the 1/9, it makes NO sense and saves almost NO time.
I think 6 Z trains [or whatever it is] is a slap in the face and atrocious for a line that gets good usage in the rush hours. They should try to add more trips for the Z.
>>>>You really have to calm down V Train, I think you are taking this a little too seriously. <<<<
Yeah, really. In total agreement.
Peace,
ANDEE
Quit lying.That's just a damn exaggeration.8 mins. tops,that's it. 30mins,c'mon please.I've said this before.There's no such thing as a bad subway line.There's not enough cars for extra service right now. All trains come on time unless something happen's and they show up late.You can't say the 2 is a bad subway line just cause it doesn't show up on time often. Thing's happen elsewhere.It get's delayed by a 3 and 5 train getting ahead of it most of the time,people hold the damn doors when they're not supposed to.That happens on ALL the subway lines.You can't do diddly squat about something that is beyond your control.If it's late,it's late,tough.You gotta deal with it.Crap happen's in the subway everyday.
My experience has always been that whichever line(s) a particular person regularly rides always turns out to be the worst. In fact, most people aren't even familiar with more than 1 or 2 lines.
Bob Sklar
So it's my turn to give the best (and worst) of the entire subway system:
BEST Station: City Hall IRT (Abandoned), just duck when the 6 train leaves BB/CH for an unforgettable experience.
WORST Station (tie): Broadway/IND (Yuck!), 155th/8th Ave (Concourse) and more rats live there so as long as these closed off staircases are still there.
BEST Line (24/7): #7 Flushing Line still dependable anytime day or night.
WORST Line: C Line, every 11 minutes during rush hours too. And the R38's need new interior lighting while the remaining R32's are leftovers.
MOST useless passageway: Times Square ramp from 8th Ave side up and over passageway back down the other side. When you walk from the 8th ave line past the #7 staircases, there is a ramp on the right side that no one uses, it takes you up, and goes left then back down when you can continue straight to the IRT staircases and the newsstand.
WORST Place to be: The Lex 4 and 5 during rush hour. Anyone that sneezes and the trains stop running. And when is the last time you were able to get a seat?
Ok.
Best stations: 14 St Union Sq[both IRT & BMT], Utica Av[A,C], 3 Av-149 St[2,5]
Worst stations: Chambers St [J,M,Z], Lawrence St[M,N,R], 86 St[R]
Best line: Hands down the Q
Worst line: The G, it got shafted so much I feel sorry for it
Best car built(IMO): R33/R36 WF
Worst car built(IMO): R16
Best transfer: Queensboro Plaza[N,W,7]
Worst transfer: 4 Av-9 St[F,M,R,W(weekends)]
Trunk line with best chance of getting a seat in the rush: 6 Av
Trunk line with worst chance of getting a seat in the rush: Lex and that's a guarantee
Best stations: 14 St Union Sq[both IRT & BMT], Utica Av[A,C], 3 Av-149 St[2,5]
What makes these stations good? IRT union sq has a nice mezzinine, but the platforms are defnately not great. BMT plat has nothing special. Nor does Utica. I don't know about 3av 149th st.
Best line: Hands down the Q
What makes the Q the best line hands down? Some people might looove that brighton run, but what about the A line with the Rockaway run and Fulton express runs? What about the Smith 9th Viaduct? The 6 line in the bronx crosses an interesting bridge that is elevated fairly high. West Side IRT seems to have the fastest express run. 6th av has the "dash" and CPW has its long run.
It seems to me that everyone just likes the express run with it's slants, and so we like the Q.
Best car built(IMO): R33/R36 WF
Worst car built(IMO): R16
For the record, the R-32 has outlived the R-33/36. R-33WF never got A/C.
Best transfer: Queensboro Plaza[N,W,7]
Worst transfer: 4 Av-9 St[F,M,R,W(weekends)]
Queensboro Plaza is no different than any other cross platform transfer. For the best TRANSFER, you need to take into account the usage it handles too. In that case, you should probably consider B'way-Nassau/Fulton st.
Trunk line with best chance of getting a seat in the rush: 6 Av
This has only held true during the manhattan bridge work. Otherwise, it's most definately the Nassau st subway (Crosstown line excluded)
What makes these stations good? IRT union sq has a nice mezzinine, but the platforms are defnately not great. BMT plat has nothing special. Nor does Utica.
The best station does not have to be the best "looking" station. I think Union Square/Lexington is one of the most interesting stations in the system, probably my favorite. It does lack a bit on ornamentation on the platform level, but it surely is a great station.
As for Utica on Fulton, they did do a pretty impressive renovation at that station, so I can see why people like it. I give it high marks for an IND station.
For the best TRANSFER, you need to take into account the usage it handles too. In that case, you should probably consider B'way-Nassau/Fulton st.
That has got to be one of the most confusing complexes in the system! When I finally find the Nassau line there, I still think the train is going to come from the opposite direction than it actually does! Definitely not the best transfer, there are a lot easier complexes to transfer in than Fulton.
What makes these stations good? IRT union sq has a nice mezzinine, but the platforms are defnately not great. BMT plat has nothing special. Nor does Utica.
The best station does not have to be the best "looking" station. I think Union Square/Lexington is one of the most interesting stations in the system, probably my favorite. It does lack a bit on ornamentation on the platform level, but it surely is a great station.
As for Utica on Fulton, they did do a pretty impressive renovation at that station, so I can see why people like it. I give it high marks for an IND station.
For the best TRANSFER, you need to take into account the usage it handles too. In that case, you should probably consider B'way-Nassau/Fulton st.
That has got to be one of the most confusing complexes in the system! When I finally find the Nassau line there, I still think the train is going to come from the opposite direction than it actually does! Definitely not the best transfer, there are a lot easier complexes to transfer in than Fulton.
>>"What makes the Q the best line hands down? Some people might looove that brighton run, but what about the A line with the Rockaway run and Fulton express runs? What about the Smith 9th Viaduct? The 6 line in the bronx crosses an interesting bridge that is elevated fairly high. West Side IRT seems to have the fastest express run. 6th av has the "dash" and CPW has its long run."<<
>>"It seems to me that everyone just likes the express run with it's slants, and so we like the Q."<<
It is my home line so I know it very well. It is the most consistent, all around line in the system and NOT just b/c of the express runs. You don't have extensive GO's as much as some lines, the cars are pretty clean, the headways are good, the express is good and it is back where it belongs as the Broadway express. The Q is consistent in all aspects. I agree there are better express runs than the Brighton express but the Q has one of the best.
>>"For the record, the R-32 has outlived the R-33/36. R-33WF never got A/C."<<
Umm, there are plenty of R33/R36 WF cars still on the 7 and I know the single units never had A/C.
Me:Trunk line with best chance of getting a seat in the rush: 6 Av
>>"This has only held true during the manhattan bridge work. Otherwise, it's most definately the Nassau st subway (Crosstown line excluded)"<<
Can't disagree with that.
How could you consider 3rd Ave/East 149th st as one of the best stations. Open for debate, it is on of the worst stations ever renovated (next to Grand Central on the Flushing lower level, the elevator never runs). Why is it so bad? Because not ONE inch of space of that station was ever dedicated to a mural (artist's rendering) or pictures of the famous 3rd Ave El. that ran upstairs, let alone the crossunder was removed at that station. Even 161st Street/River is far better looking and more spacious than the sham NYCT placed at 3rd Ave. It's nice to see a piece of history outside of the transit museum at a subway station fitting for it's time.
Ok wait just a minute, YOU tell us how the SB 2 has 30 minute headways, prove it and don't include delays. NO train runs every 30 minutes [and youre talking about rush hour] unless it is a GO. While I do agree that the 2 is slow in the Bronx & Brooklyn and suffers from long local runs and is notoriously slow btw 96 St and 110 St, I refuse to believe that it runs every 1/2 hour no way. If you're late, then leave earlier plain and simple.
I've noted a number of posts on this topic, and I have but one question: What makes a subway line "good"? For some people, it seems to be the percieved speed of trains and the danger factor of the stations. For others, it's the 2tph during rush hour that the #2 train provides.
First off, I'd like to demonstrate one thing about speed: R-44's are not slow, they just seem to be. For one, if the R-44's were truly slower, then they would never have to worry about timers, while R-38's would be braking like crazy for them. For the record, the fastest that I ever went through the cranberry tunnel was on an R-44 where the T/O worked the timer so that he never had to brake.
Now then, the best lines are (in my opinion):
IND-(A)-The A provides frequent service and saves a significant amount of time over the C train. (It doesn't hurt that it's my 'home line')
BMT-(Q)-How can you pass this line up? Even if you miss the express, the local is right behind it, and is nearly as fast.
IRT-no choice- I couldn't narrow it down. The 4/5 would be my choice, but the overcrowding is unbearable.
The worst:
IND-tie (C)(G)- Both have crappy headways and are pretty slow. Some G trains actually experience Lex style crowding, thanks to the car reduction surgery. The other day, a G train was so crowded that it left close to 50 passengers on the platform at Fulton St.
BMT-(N)- removal from the bridge was the first bad step. Removal of weekend service was the worst part. Riders went from having the best possible service to some phantom that barely resembles anything of the previous N train.
IRT-(3)-I'm sure some are like: "sure, he's just some idiot", but think about it. All those turns and closely placed stops in lower manhattan. It runs farther out in brooklyn, yet it isn't the express. That idiotic branch off from the #2 (145th st is a joke). It all adds up to the fact that the 3 is stupid. I'd take the A over that 3 anyday. If I want to go to a point too fa east for the 8th av line, I'll take the 6th av or broadway lines.
"That idiotic branch off from the #2 (145th st is a joke)."
That branch is meant to be a way to short turn the trains. White Plains Rd doesn't have enough traffic to require the number of trains that upper Broadway in Manhattan needs. The 3 is a way to provide enough service in Manhattan without being wasteful in the Bronx.
Incidentally, if you are just riding in Manhattan, the 3 is great. It really all depends on your perspective.
Incidentally, if you are just riding in Manhattan, the 3 is great.
If only riding in manhattan, you could change the sign to read (2) and it wouldn't make much difference.
The #3 was supposed to be a local. The original plan was to have have locals on each branch starting at 137th Street and Lenox Terminal, and expresses on each branch starting at 241st and 242nd. But they didn't build a flying junction at 96th, so all the switching caused delays. So they made all of one branch local, and all of the other express.
I never knew that! Yes, that would make loads more sense! That should be really seriously considered as a project in the distant future.
I never knew that either! It does explain why there is turning capacity at 137th Street. They did however turn 1's there short before the 1/9 thing started in the 80's, but I never knew the original intent.
(I never knew that either! It does explain why there is turning capacity at 137th Street. They did however turn 1's there short
before the 1/9 thing started in the 80's, but I never knew the original intent.)
I read about it in "Under the Sidewalks of New York." They were short-running half the #1 trains, and storing them at 137th, when I first came to the city (from Yonkers, not a long trip!). At the time I lived in Kingsbridge, Bronx, just over the border and worked at the World Trade Center.
If only riding in manhattan, you could change the sign to read (2) and it wouldn't make much difference.
True they are similar in Manhattan, but the 3 serves a purpose, and that is the mentioned "short" turn of trains in Manhattan. Of course in Brooklyn the 2 and 3 is more distinct. Just because they are similar in Manhattan doesn't mean they should be all called "2", that would lead to a confusing set up like the A to Far Rockaway and the A to Lefferts.
Many lines in Manhattan are dublicating and alike while in the bourough. The 4 and 5 are completely alike while in Manhattan, even more so than the 2 and 3. Of course they are much different in the Bronx and Brooklyn.
And what about the N and the R? Isn't that just like the 2 and 3 in Manhattan? Actually, the N and R are identical in Manhattan than the 2 and 3.
The J and M also. They are identical to each other in Manhattan also.
True they are similar in Manhattan, but the 3 serves a purpose, and that is the mentioned "short" turn of trains in Manhattan. Of course in Brooklyn the 2 and 3 is more distinct. Just because they are similar in Manhattan doesn't mean they should be all called "2", that would lead to a confusing set up like the A to Far Rockaway and the A to Lefferts.
Just commenting on the 3's purpose if you only rode in manhattan. I know what the 3's purpose really is.
Many lines in Manhattan are dublicating and alike while in the bourough. The 4 and 5 are completely alike while in Manhattan, even more so than the 2 and 3. Of course they are much different in the Bronx and Brooklyn.
And what about the N and the R? Isn't that just like the 2 and 3 in Manhattan? Actually, the N and R are identical in Manhattan than the 2 and 3.
The J and M also. They are identical to each other in Manhattan also.
Yeah, I know all about these lines. My point is that 3 trains are virtually uneeded on their northern branch off, unlike the rest of these lines.
WPR has plenty of traffic, this past summer, some (3)s wen't to
E 238 St-White Plains Road, Bronx
now, some (3) trains come from E 180 St in the morning
WPR has plenty of traffic, this past summer, some (3)s went to
E 238 St-White Plains Road, Bronx
now, some (3) trains come from E 180 St in the morning
Trust me J train, its more than the lines itself.
The best:
IND:(A) A toss up btw the A and D but I lean more toward the A since it is the longest line, excellent express runs/service, good variety of cars and no stops for 3+ miles in Queens
BMT:(Q)- Just the best, the most consistent of all lines [and its one of my main lines for travel :-D]
IRT:(4)- Speedy express service and frequent but the crowding kills its chances from being 'perfect'
The worst:
IND:(G)- The MTA really screws this line. Enough said.
BMT:(R)- In general, the BMT system is treated like a 3rd class system in most aspects and all lines except the L has shoddy headways but the R definitely takes the cake. Has a awful station at 86 St, is very slow, their R46's are dirtier than the F & V and definitely needs better service
IRT:(2)- Has to suffer through long local runs in Brooklyn[guess they favor the green lines running express over the red lines :)] & the Bronx, the extremely slow portion btw 96 St and 110 St, 10 minute headways on weekends which is silly, no more Redbirds[time had to come someday] and suffers through constant GO's, the GO's often affect it in all 3 boroughs on the same weekends/off hours.
Right you are on the N Mr. J. The TA did a number on the Sea Beach and I have often wondered if some people in the TA actually have it in for my train. I know that sounds silly and maybe it is, but too many bad things have happened to that line for me to just say it is all a coincidence. It is not.
"I have often wondered if some people in the TA actually have it in for my train."
Just bcause you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.
On the other hand, blame circumstances, not the TA:
- The bridge can't handle more than 3 lines while it's half closed.
- Ideally, one Brighton line would go bridge and one tunnel, leaving room for the Sea Beach on the bridge, but if you look at the track maps, you'll see that would cause a lot more congestion at Dekalb, slowing down everybody, including Sea Beach riders.
- Either the West End or the Sea Beach can use the bridge, and the West End just has more riders.
However, if the Sea Beach doesn't go over the bridge post 2004, THEN your paranoia is more justified.
I would be just as upset as Fred if the N didn't return to the bridge in 2004.
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep,
a sign if your always afraid,
step out of line and they take you away,
you gotta stop, watch that sound,
everybody look go round and round----and repeat and repeat.
I saw the M-7 in the Flatbush Yard downtown at about 1:20 pm today just sitting there.
-AcelaExpress2005
Downtown Brooklyn.
>>I saw the M-7 in the Flatbush Yard downtown at about 1:20 pm today just sitting there.<<
What you call Flatbush Yard is really VD or Vanderbilt Yard. After doing two round trips from Long Beach to Flatbush, the M-7's lay up until the PM rush hour and becomes the 6:04PM to Ronkonkoma.
Bill "Newkirk"
I stand corrected. The M-7 looks so beautiful, It caught my eye when I was on the 2nd Floor of Atlantic Center going to Circuit City.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
>>I stand corrected. The M-7 looks so beautiful, It caught my eye when I was on the 2nd Floor of Atlantic Center going to Circuit City.<<
Well, if you have a few bucks to spend, you can ride it. You don't have to go as far as Ronkonkoma. Buy a ticket and go as far as Jamaica. But be warned, the 6:04 is a PEAK train, so check the TVM machine before you buy a ticket. After Jamaica, just hop on the subway and head home.
I rode that train tonight, it was quite a nice experience. But the ride itself was a bit of a letdown. Maybe because most of the cars had flat wheels. Those damn wet leaves. Perhaps a consist with normal wheels would produce a better ride. But still, they rode better than the M-1/3's with their spotted wheels.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe I will just take the M-7 to Jamaica and catch a M1/3 back to Nostrand Ave. and walk 2 blocks up to my building.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
>>Maybe I will just take the M-7 to Jamaica and catch a M1/3 back to Nostrand Ave. and walk 2 blocks up to my building.<<
Whatever floats your boat !
Bill "Newkirk"
LOL!
-AcelaExpress2005
It was e/b heading for Babylon just around 9:00 tonight. The green door lights are a dead giveaway.
wayne
>>It was e/b heading for Babylon just around 9:00 tonight. The green door lights are a dead giveaway.<<
I saw the M-7's east of Jamaica going through the under jump to the Atantic Branch, probably the return trip to Long Beach. That was about 7:58 AM or so today.
Maybe the train you saw tonight was the second set scehduled to hit the rails in December doing their non-revenue "burn in" run.
Bill "Newkirk"
You saw the "in-service" set of M-7's. They layup in that yard from about 9:30 AM to 6PM.
There is also at least one set of M-7's currently being tested. I saw them this afternoon heading westbound through Baldwin at about 12:55PM.
CG
I sawthe sme set of M-7s being tested. They arrived at bellmore eastboud at 11:58am and were signed for babylon. The rear car was 7009. (It wasn't in service, because the doors diidnt't open and was proberly giving some breathing room to the scheduled eastbound that had past two minutes before.
I know, that's the M-7 I saw laying up at around 1:20 pm.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
The period from Thanksgiving to Christmas is marked by many UCTIs (Undesirable Customer-Train Interactions). Yesterday there were 4 delays caused by people walking on the tracks on various lines. That includes:
1) The one on the Q where the meeting was fatal.
2) There was also the incident on the #5 line where a 19 year-old found out riding on the outside of a train ain't what it was cracked-up to be. He said the fall wasn't so bad but the sudden stop when he hit the column was a real bitch.
3) Another one was found walking on the tracks. He said he was looking for the cell phone he dropped while crossing from car to car.
This afternoon, service on the #6 was suspended when a guy leaned over the edge of the platform to see if the train was coming. Wasn't he suprised when he found out he was looking in the wrong direction (ouch). Service was out for more than 1 hour. Don't know if he survived yet.
You missed one from Thursday - someone on the tracks at DeKalb southbound.
Read in today's news that a man was killed when he fell on the tracks somewhere in BK on the N and Q lines.
That was #1 in Train Dude's post, reported by someone who can't read a subway map - or a street map either, since Ave U and E. 16 St is NOT in Coney Island
The Daily News reporter who wrote the story stated that the man fell onto the tracks used by the N, B, & Q trains. The info given to the media by the TA stated that the man was on the NB (northbound) Q tracks.
>>1) The one on the Q where the meeting was fatal.<<
The idea of subways is to ride the train from point A and point B. Not to walk the roadbed to get from A to B.
>>2) There was also the incident on the #5 line where a 19 year-old found out riding on the outside of a train ain't what it was cracked-up to be. He said the fall wasn't so bad but the sudden stop when he hit the column was a real bitch.<<
Columns are not:
A) Made of sponge rubber
B) Made to move out of the way at the last minute
>>3) Another one was found walking on the tracks. He said he was looking for the cell phone he dropped while crossing from car to car<<
Gee that's a toughy. Stay in one car and not change. All the cars on his train look alike anyway.
>>4)This afternoon, service on the #6 was suspended when a guy leaned over the edge of the platform to see if the train was coming. Wasn't he suprised when he found out he was looking in the wrong direction (ouch). Service was out for more than 1 hour. Don't know if he survived yet.<<
Maybe he was from Britain or some other country where trains run opposite ours. He should have invested in a good football helmut at Modells ! If he does survive, that impression of a pantograph gate on his head will be the topic of conversation at any party !
Let's not talk about Darwin Awards. We've been down that road many times before and frankly they can't make them fast enough !
Live from Saturn, it's.....
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, Pelham Bay Dave can tell ya all about that one! He's trip to the Transit Museum at GCT was delayed due to the #6 incident.
Yes, It took a total of 55 Minutes to get from Pelham to 125 St. people where starting to go nuts on that train.
Somewheres around noon today, the L train was shut down, isolating us Brooklynites from the joys of Black Friday shopping in Manhattan.
A PO at the top of the stairs said there was signal problems. Another authority figure said there was a broken switch.
The L was out all afternoon, so we gave up going to the WIZ.
Anybody here want to add anything?? WHAAHAPPEN??
Switch not working at 8th ave terminal. I was there, witnessed the switch finally move and then we got moving. Messed up day! I also heard that there was a W train outage?
Didn't hear about the W. Why would they have to suspend the L from Rockaway Parkway? Isn't there a switch closer to Manhattan?
As time passed, trains were being turn at Bedford Ave and Broadway ENY. Riders were encouraged to use the A to Broadway ENY but I'm pretty sure towards the end of the problem, A service went out because of the fire in the rockaways. Not fun.
I can imagine. I transfered from the 4 to the 2 at 149th at around 12:30 or so and there were no announcements then. I took the 2 to Chambers, 1 to South Ferry, got off and took the next 1 back to Chambers and then the 2 to Penn Station, where I got lunch. When I left for lunch, the problem had not started. But when I came back from lunch at around 1:35 (approx), I took a 3 up to Times Square, and at Times Square, I heard the announcement for the first time.
>>>>...so we gave up going to the WIZ. <<<<
The WIZ is no bargain, they SUCK. They probably did you a favor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks all.
Thanks all.
A fire in the rockaways messed up A service for about 1 hour this afternoon
Where? On the main isle? Or on a certain trackway?
Does anyone know the official or unofficial or estimated percentage of NYC subway track that is:
tunnel (subway)
open cut
embankment
el ?
I am interested in revenue trackage only, not yards or non service track, or tracks to yards, and only in the four boroughs with regular service.
Related question: Where is the most recent addition to a NYC
subway line that is not in a tunnel. I can not think of any that are later than the 1950's. I can think of the Culver connection to the IND and the Rockaway subway annex from LIRR. What is the latest that is not in a tunnel?
Check the FAQ.
Facts & Figures
Thanks, that answers it.
I suppose the TA is the source for the statistics, but the figures on cut and embankment stations (at least the former) have to be wrong.
Embankment Stations 29
Open Cut Stations 9
Where else do we have embankment stations o
I suppose the TA is the source for the statistics, but the figures on cut and embankment stations (at least the former) have to be wrong.
Embankment Stations 29
Open Cut Stations 9
Where else do we have embankment stations other than Brighton and maybe Dyre? Brighton has Avenue H, J, M, Kings Highway, U, Neck Rd., Sheepshead Bay, Park Place and Franklin Avenue. That's 9. Do you count a viaduct station, such as on the 7 Line?
As to cut stations, 9 is too few. Brighton has 7 alone (Botanic Garden, Prospect Park, Parkside, Church, Beverley, Cortelyou, Newkirk). If you discount 8th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Pkwy on the Sea Beach, you have 7 more (New Utrecht, 18, 20, Bay Pkwy., Kings Highway, U and 86 St.). That's 16.
I think that Botanic Gardens was reduced to three cars and totally moved underground.
Where are there 68 bridges in the NYC subway system {according to this page}? I never knew there were that many. Nobody has to list all 68, just tell me ones that I probably wouldn't think of.
I don't know what would be considered bridges, but you might include anything where a bridge type structure had to carry a line over a wide obstruction. For example, I know the BMT considered the structure which took the Myrtle Avenue Line over Flatbush Avenue Extension to be a "bridge."
So possibly we could include such as the Culver bridge over Belt Parkway, short as it is. Other more obvious bridges are Sea Beach/West End over Coney Island creek. This might be considered two bridges. Don't forget the bridges on Rockaway Line over Jamaica Bay. The portion of the F/G over Gowanus Canal is probably one. And so on.
Does it add up to 68? No idea.
Related question: Where is the most recent addition to a NYC
subway line that is not in a tunnel. I can not think of any that are later than the 1950's. I can think of the Culver connection to the IND and the Rockaway subway annex from LIRR. What is the latest that is not in a tunnel?
I think you mentioned the most recent. Unless you count the very small new section run on the J Line at 121st Street from Jamaica Ave to where the line ducts underground on the Archer Extension. Pushing it a bit, and very short indeed, but it does involve some new elevated construction.
If you're counting reconstruction, I'd put in the approaches of the J/M/Z lines on the Willie B.
If you're not counting reconstruction, you're probably right about the Culver connection being the last one.
--Mark
If you're not counting reconstruction, you're probably right about the Culver connection being the last one.
The connections from the IND Fulton Street subway to the el, and from the el to the Rockaway Branch are more recent.
Also, what is the date of the 180th Street connection to the Dyre Avenue Line? That might be more recent, also.
Ahhh, the Dyre Ave flyover and the connection to the LIRR Rockaway branch ... forgot about those.
Dyre Ave ... 1962 maybe?
--Mark
Newest non-subway: What about 148/Lenox Terminal? It opened in 1968, and, while it is below street level, the station is at ground level with buildings built on the air rights above it and the neighboring yard?
-- Ed Sachs
I was thinking of that also. Approaching the station the line sees daylight.
I found one, sitting on a Metrocard reader at the Atlantuc Ave station (IRT/LIRR).
So I was reading it and they reviewed Balthazar Restaurant at 80 Spring St. Manhattan. Then I get a sinking feeling, what if Zagat reviewed several restaurants and the Balthazar card was one of them ? That means there are others out there to collect and I just got this particular one. I swiped the card and it said time expired. So it may have been a Funpass bought at an MVM.
If you have this card, whether you're a collector or not, let me know if there is another restaurant listed on your card.
Thank you,
Bill "Newkirk"
I got a Zagat metrocard too today! At last, being a collector pays off with more MC's when I thought it was dead. I have the Babbo card, 110 Waverly Place.
>>I have the Babbo card, 110 Waverly Place.<<
There are more than one Zagat cards ?
Oooohh Nooooooo !
Bill "Newkirk"
There are four of them- in "se;ected" MVMs. Not available at booths.
I just got from one MC reader's box three for them.
1)River Cafe, 1 Water Street Brooklyn
2)Balthazar, 80 Spring St Manhattan
3)Babbo, 100 Waverly Pl Manhattan
What is the forth one.
If I find more of them I well to give them to who every needs them.
Robert
I just found out that there are SIX Zagat cards !
Bill "Newkirk"
Great I just went to put the ones I got in to my holder and found out I have no more room for them. I have two holders already.
Robert
If you don't mind revealing the secret, where did you find it?
Finding them are harder now then in the passed when MVM used to have the Trade In feture. All you have to do is have a card with $0.05 in it and get a new card to see when was in the MVM. Now you have to fine them on the floor or on top of the MC Readers, so if you happen to fine one you luckey.
Robert
Just out of curiosity, I used Subtalk's archival search and found out the nomber. WOW!
And that's even with the 2-3 month hiatus we had in the Spring!
The numbers show that many people are loyal to Sub Talk despite the 2 to 3 month hiatus this past spring. Let's hope that it keeps on going well and many can enjoy this message board for years to come.
#3 West End Jeff
bfd.
-Hank
I was bored.
HEH, yea really, probably only 20,000 were on topic.
Peace,
ANDEE
HEH, yea really, probably only 20,000 were on topic.
Andee: And those where all about the station at 76 Street and Pitkin Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was there today to check on the reconfiguring project. Well that one track on the Chambers St bound side that hasn't see service was all ripped out. Ties, rail and concrete. Half the station has new track layed down, but not aligned and cement not poured. The other half has no track and the bare concrete floor is exposed.
If you're in the neighborhood, check it out.
Bill "Newkirk"
What exactly are they doing here?
They are reconfiguring the station so that all trains us the present SB platform (which was just renovated) and abandoning the present NB platform (which still looks like crap). I believe they are also doing something similar at Bowery J/M/Z.
On Wednesday, there was a large puddle on the SB "express" trackway.
Meanwhile, the NB "express" trackway looks like it's being covered with sheet metal. What's the point of that?
>>On Wednesday, there was a large puddle on the SB "express" trackway.<<
I saw that too, where there was no track panels. Kinda late in the year for the TA to be breeding mosquitos !
>>Meanwhile, the NB "express" trackway looks like it's being covered with sheet metal. What's the point of that? <<
The sheet metal looks like they're going to pour concrete on it. Maybe it is for the electrical apartus that was moved from where the new tunnel opening is.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ties, rail and concrete. Half the station has new track layed down, but not aligned and cement not poured.
More photos of the station, taken on 11/27/2002, are available here.
--Brian
Dropped by to see what's new here. Well the crew building above the (N) and (Q) tracks have half the roof removed. All that is standing is the walls and they don't have far to go. When entering Stillwell on the (W), it looks like the (N) and (Q) platforms and trackways north of the crew building are removed also. They remain south of the building. Demolition is moving, slowly but surely.
Hate to go off topic, but:
THE FAMED CONEY ISLAND PARACHUTE JUMP IS 1/2 GONE !! or 1/3 gone !
I was told by a friend of mine that they are indeed dismantling the Parachute Jump, but not as a demolition job, but a restoration. Several years ago, the Parachute Jump was judged a hazard because of neglect. The same salt air that decayed Stillwell Terminal weakened the Parachute Jump. I've been told it will be restored, since it is an obvious landmark of Coney Island. I'm not sure if has landmark status or not.
I believe the Parachute Jump is on City property, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if it will return as a functioning Parachute Jump or not, but I was told it is coming back. I didn't take any photos because it was a cloudy day and I was short of time, but see for yourself. Photograph it while it looks like this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Geez, you scared me when I read the parachute jump was going to be dismantled until you specified later it would be restored. Sheesh!!
:-)
I won't be happy until I see it restored. I've seen too many "temporary" trolley abandonments in my time.
>>Geez, you scared me when I read the parachute jump was going to be dismantled until you specified later it would be restored. Sheesh!!<<
It already was dismantled, the top 1/2 or 1/3 of it. Go down and see for yourself. It looks eerie like half a Statue of Liberty !
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw it today and thought it was just a low ceiling...
THE FAMED CONEY ISLAND PARACHUTE JUMP IS 1/2 GONE !! or 1/3 gone !
Damn Bill, you made my heart skip a beat with that one! I was glad when you mentioned that it is because of restoration, even if that makes me a bit nervous, as to how long it will be gone.
It is actually the end of an era. Once it's taken down, even if restored, we can never say it stood there for XX amount of years. It makes me a bit sad -- and I only saw it about two months ago!
>>Once it's taken down, even if restored, we can never say it stood there for XX amount of years. It makes me a bit sad -- and I only saw it about two months ago!<<
As I understand, the "Jump" was structurally weak and they wanted to demolish it altogether. So they did some band aid work and painted it. I'd hate to hear on the news that the structure collapsed into a pile of twisted steel. At any rate, from the (W) platform, it was an eerie site seeing the top 1/2 missing. The Statue of Liberty had some structure problems some years ago too.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is on city property owned by the Parks Department and it does have city landmark status. The last maintenance they performed with the addition of aircraft aviodance lights it got a paint job but I don't think any structural maintenance or stableization was done. I am glad to see that this is now being addressed.
Didn't Bullard from Kansas Fried Chicken own it for a while? He is the one who wanted to rebuild the Steeplechase, but could never get over the financial obstacles. (Now even his chicken restaurant is closed, the abandoned rollercoaster demolished and the stadium got most of the land!). When it was first announced that the jump was structurally unsound, it seemed he was the one being held responsible for fixing it, since he was holding the land for the redevelopment.
If he or Disney or somebody comes back, it would be nice if they revived the new Steeplechase plan. Even though the stadium is there, still, there is now more land where the Stauch's bath house was cleared. this extends to Stillwell Av-- all the vacant land behind Nathan's. Hopefully this could make up for the land the stadium got.
It would make all ex New Yorkers rejoice to see Coney Island once again become the playland of the East. Too many of you do not remember what a place Coney Island was in the 40's into the 50's. I remember July 3, 1951 at a beach outing. Swear to heaven, you couldn't move a foot without hitting someone else. The place was that packed. On the sand there were even water fountains where you could refresh yourself instead of having to wait what seemed like hours in a line for a Mission Orange or a Hoffman's rasberry. The water was cold, too.
All the rides were top heavy with people and there were three roller coasters in operation. What a place. I think I'd give just about anything to see Coney Island like that again. When I was there in October with three of my colleagues the place was almost deserted. Sure it was early autumn but the weather was crisp and with attractions open and a revitilization in place the amusement park could have boasted a few thousand people.
>>It would make all ex New Yorkers rejoice to see Coney Island once again become the playland of the East<<
Coney Island will never return to that era as you described. So many things have changed over the years as well as people. Coney Island needs some sort of revival, but it will never reach that pinnacle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks Newkirk for your pearls of wisdom. You have just made my day. Congratulations. I just happen to think it could. With so many yuppies moving into the city there should be a place to for people to go to have fun on a limited budget. Coney Island could be the place. If all people think like you do then it will never come to pass, but there is land there for expansion and and a good transportation network to get people to the place. It would be a change of pace to the pproliferation of those cookie cutter amusement parks we have now around the country. Don't get me wrong, I love Disneyland and California Adventure out here. I even have a year long pass, but there is still something very romantic to me about Coney Island and I refuse to give up my dream of seeing it restored to its former glory. I am an incurable romantic, as you now probably know.
>>Thanks Newkirk for your pearls of wisdom. You have just made my day. Congratulations. I just happen to think it could.<<
I think you read me wrong, Fred. What I meant about Coney Island not returning to it's glory of the 1940's is that there will never be another Luna Park, Dream Land, Tornado, wall to wall bathers, numerous swimming pools and trolleys running up and down Surf Ave. That was the Coney Island of the 1940's and 50's.
Coney Island does have the potential to become something bigger and better than it is now. It's going to take big bucks and organizations willing to invest and build to that potential. But a new Coney Island can only be sucessfull as an all year round attraction and not a seasonal one. Perhaps building a replica of Steeplechase as an indoor amusement park full of indoor rides regardless of the weather outside.
Bill "Newkirk"
OK Bill, I will accept that. It is just that in the past I have crossed swords with these "new young" New Yorkers who think Coney Island is an anancronism and not even worth the time of day. As a guy who knew what Coney Island was I was a little surprised by your answer. I just mis=interpreted it. I really would like to see the city fathers get behind some company that could really restore the place.
If/when it reopens, I'll be there (hopefully).
I'm told April 13, 2003 is the day the Cyclone reopens. With God's grace I will be there that day. Hope to see some of you there, too.
Hey Fred, you ought to bring a camcorder and strap it onto the front of the coaster as you ride on it.:)
Not a bad idea. I'll think about it. As a matter of fact, Marty Siegal sent me an E-Mail pictorial showing the Cyclone in action. I watch it when I want to enjoy the ride vicariously.
I can't wait till the NEW Stillwell terminal opens in May 2004 or sooner, but I would be just be as curious about our station undergoing a slow but dramatic change: Newkirk Ave on the Q line. Sure it turned from an open cut station to a underground station quick. And you have to be careful with those support beams, they come from Germany (see the orange label on the beam itself.
I was working the w last week and read in the paper how it was then being dismantled, even with the crane high above. As I hadn't noticed this, I looked right over, and they had just removed a couple of the parachute drop arms. When I returned from a trip, all of them are off, and it looked like an incomplete tower.
Also, you didn't notice that the new bypass track on the far end is in place. Thery're starting on the new structure already!
Now how did that parachute jump work? What did you sit in: a seat, a bucket. . .? I believe you were lifted slowly, and then once you reached the top you heard this end of the world snap and you fell free fall like the Tower of Terror in Disney. Is this accurate?
>>Now how did that parachute jump work? What did you sit in: a seat, a bucket. . .? I believe you were lifted slowly, and then once you reached the top you heard this end of the world snap and you fell free fall like the Tower of Terror in Disney. Is this accurate?<<
Your description sounds very accurate. I know that when I was young, I was terrified of the notion of going up there. I think they were strapped into some seat so, they wouldn't slip out. Never heard of any fatalaties associated with the Parachute Jump. BTW, The Parachute Jump came from the 1939 World's Fair.
Bill "Newkirk"
Six Flags Elitch Gardens has something similar to the Tower of Terror.
Again? Already? Wasn't the parachuite jump rehabbed not 10 years ago?
(And I believe it is landmarked, BTW).
--Mark
>>Again? Already? Wasn't the parachuite jump rehabbed not 10 years ago?<<
I guess so. Maybe someone has plans to revive it and a to do so the structure should be strenghtened. Take the (W) train and see for yourself. You can see it from the platform. A very eerie look sight.
>>(And I believe it is landmarked, BTW).<<
As long as the structure doesn't change its appearance when reconstructed. That Parachute Jump is Brooklyn's Eiffel Tower !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It wasn't totally rehabbed, bust fixed just enough so that it wouldn't fall, and painted
Dropped by Coney Island today to photograph the Parachute Jump. Boy was it nippy on that boardwalk !
On the Stillwell bound side of the (Q) platform, most of the steel windscreen is down with orange safety netting in its place. Nothing going on on the (F) level. Looks like West 8th is finally getting a rehab.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have recent photos of Stillwell here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/StillwellAv
Sorry, I didn't taken any photos of the parachute jump.
--Brian
That should have read: "Sorry, I didn't take any photos of the parachute jump."
I heard on the news awhile back that the parachute jump is supposed to be rebuilt, put back in working order and reopened.Think the keyspan people might have something to do with it.
anybody else hear this?
The Parachute Jump isn't likely to be put into operation. What they have done is maintain the structure. That rehab was recently done.
Someone is working on it now, no rehab was done just a paint job and installation of aircraft advoidance lights. I do not beleive any stabilzation was done at the time of the painting, maybe some.
Yes, I heard this too. It wasn't clear whether it would just be renovated, or put into operation as well.
I saw a report on Channel 10 regarding SEPTA's special holiday trains. The first one, of course, is the former Rt. 23 Chestnut Hill PCC Trolley.
I think they said that free rides are given every day from 11 to 3. They also said that SEPTA was running special holiday trains for the kids on all "five" of its lines (they showed an MFL train) that run "express" to the gallery with santa and music and decorations on board. If any of you can make sense of this please do.
If any of you can make sense of this please do.
The SEPTA Santa Express was Black Friday only. There were two Regional Rail trains, two MFSE trains, and one BSS train, decorated for the Holidays with Santa aboard.
There was a little blurb in yesterday's Inkie about PCC car(s) running offering free rides on Route 23 between 11 & 3 on Black Friday.
c 1910
Southern Div: Brighton via Franklin/Fulton/Bklyn Br.
West End/Sea Beach via 5 Av./Bklyn Br.
Culver via 5Av/Bklyn Br.
3 Av/5Av via Bklyn Br
Eastern Div
Myrtle/Bklyn Br. and Lexington Av. branch tp Bway.
Fulton/Bklyn Br
Bway/Canarsie via Williamsburg Br.
Bway/Cypress Hills(Jamaica Av) via Williamsburg Br.
All were pretty much on equal footing. All only served lower Manhattan, as Midtown and beyond was purely IRT territory.
Beginning in 1913, the Triboro and Dual contracts system started to be built.
A new 4th Ave. subway was built, and West End, Sea Beach and Culver lines were connected to it and also completely replaced with all new right if ways to handle steel subway cars.
Plans to connect Myrtle and Fulton to it never materialized. Consequentially, the lines were never replaced or upgraded for steel cars.
The Brighton was later connected via a new subway between DeKalb and Prospect Park. All four southern lines now led directly to midtown Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge and Montague Tunnel, plus the Nassau line shared with the East.
While the Southern Div. was virtually rebuilt from the ground up, the Eastern Div. lines received no new trunk line, and therefore existing structures were simply upgraded to allow for steel cars. This left a grade crossing at a new connection between the Myrtle and Broadway lines (which limits capacity), plus various curves that are not only slow, but would later prevent newer longer cars from operating there. This would insure that this portion of the system would be isolated from the rest. The only new line built in the east was the 14th St. line, which would cut across Williamsburg and Bushwick and eventually join the Canarsie line. This seems to be the most promoted and therefore used line of this area, but it dead ends on 14th St, providing stairway and passageway connections, but no rail connection to the north-south trunk lines of Manhattan. This would help add to the number of transfers required to reach the BMT East.
In the 20's and 30's, the new Independant system was being planned and built, and would compete with the BMT and IRT. A base system was completed in 1940, which skirted and paralleled a part of the BMT East, even running right below the Fulton St line. A "Second System" was plotted out, which would replace most of the rest of the East. But it too was never built, except for a few provisions built into some First System stations. In that system, the AA/BB was to use a new Worth st. line, travel via a new tunnel and under S.4th St. in Williamsburg, then branch off on Myrtle Ave, and later Glendale's Central Av., and connect to the Rockaway line. A new "J" line would branch off of the G at Bedford-Nostrand, continue down Lafayette, and then connect to the new Myrtle line, and head for an upper level of Roosevelt Av. on the busy Queens IND corridor. (The CC and D would run through the 2nd Av. station (where the V terminates now) and a new tunnel and branch the other way off of the S.4th line to become the Utica Ave. line) But this too was put on the back burner (it really should have been in the first system) and died. Once again, the area served by the BMT East was neglected. Under this system, the centrally located areas of Bushwick, Ridgewood, Glendale and Middle Village would have had direct connections to Downtown Brooklyn, Downtown Manhattan, Midtown, Uptown, and the rest of Queens. Try reaching many of these areas from this region today with the system that has been left.
In 1940, the 3 systems were unified, and being that the IND and BMT were compatible, they began to be physically merged. First, most old els. were abandoned. The southern div. had its new subway system, so loss of the 3rd/5th Av. el and Bklyn Bridge did no harm to its accessibility. The Culver line was even disconnected from the BMT and connected to the IND. The Fulton el was replaced with the new line right below it (whch recaptured the outer, newer portion if it in Queens). But the Myrtle and Lexington lines had no comparable alternative. the G paralleled them fo a bit, but then abruptly turned north before reaching eastern Bed-Stuy and Bushwick. Still, the Lexington was eventually abandoned. Myrtle service was soon cut back to Jay st. In the late 60's there were plans to order new stainless stell, but lighter cars for both the Myrtle and Bronx 3rd Av. els. But then this never materialized (though the contract number, R-39, had been designated). Then, the Myrtle was quickly abandoned in 1969 (3rd Av. lasted four years longer). One of the reasons supposedly was Polytechnic Institute's revitalization of it's campus near the Jay St. terminal. Yet, this project, which we now know as MetroTech, was only recenty completed, a good 3 decades later. It took them so long to get the project off the ground, yet tearing down the el was first priority! Now, Ridgewood and Bushwick were left with low crowded buses down narrow streets to reach downtown Brooklyn, or travel through Manhattan on the Nassau line, or take the L to Bway Jct. and transfer to the A. (Not until recent decades was there express service outside of rush hours!) The Myrtle line is left with a shuttle to Myrtle-Bway all times outside of the weekday. Unless you live along the L line's Wyckoff Av. corridor, it can be a slow long ride to get home.
A connection had been built to the IND at Essex St, but not only the 75 ft car restriction, but also the resultant skipping of lengthening platforms for 10 car trains would limit the service that could run through it, and therefore justify terminating the new service after a few years. The KK from 57th st-Canarsie and/or Jamaica was doomed to fail from the start. It was said to run so infrequently, the people wound up using the transfer to the F anyway. It was only rush hours, but it was never considered that it might come more in handy during off hours (including weekends) when downtown was largely desolate, and midtown was where most recreational destinations were. Also, there would be more capacity on 6th Av. outside of rush hour. An MM from 57th-Metropolitan during middays, at least, was also planned, and printed on signs, but was never run. With a Myrtle Av. el to Brooklyn, plus an MM to midtown, Myrtle Av. accessibility would have still been on a par with the rest of the system. But the entire area seemed to be dismissed as if it wasn't there. "Low ridership" was the frequent claim, and parts of the area may heve been becoming blighted, still, it begs the question why other similar slums had better ridership figures.
More recently, a Bowery-Grand St. connection was considered as a way to ease crowding in the single Grand St. entrance. This would have provided one transfer to the express B and D to both midtown/uptown and the BMT South, as well as bringing more people to the notoriously desloate Bowery station (and may have even allowed the suspension of Grand St. train service when that side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed, since it would connect to Bowery, and yet the Grand St. entrance would still be open, making area businesses not feel as isolated if the shuttle wasn't run. (at Bowery, you could travel one direction for 6th Av. plus also the other way for access to the BMT south). But instead, they settled for a cheaper alternative; an additional stairway on the west side of Chrystie St. (it does help with the access, though, such as when I connect to the Bowery via the street as an alternative). Now you still have to make the additional transfer to the F, just to get to Delancey for the narrow stairway. The F often suffers delays during busy hours, and infrequent headways other times.
So now we are left with no direct midtown service, and reduced service to downtown on off hours, requiring numerous transfers to reach various destinations. And when construction work cuts out portions of lines it is even worse, with slow crowded shuttle buses replacing service. The L has been pushed to us as the favored connection, with increased service. Yet, not all areas are conveniently close enough to it, and it still guarantees at least one transfer unless you are only going to 14th Street. Many people wind up using cars and car service, making it expensive to get around. (plus equally inconvenient with all the traffic in much of Ridgewood, narrow streets, looking for parking, etc) The best that could be done with the existing system is to reinstitute the midtown service. But this is always dismissed because ot failed before. Still never considered is its usefulness outside of rush hour, or the change in ridership in the last 30 years (it seems there are more working class people now). also of notice, is how nobody over here seems to be demanding more direct service, and nobody complained when service was cut back. (as was done when service was reduced to Grand St. and on the G line, and riders banded together to demand better service, which was then provided). It seems part of this may be because people just got into the habit of using cars and other means of transportation during off hours, or expecting longer more difficult travel. Many probably skip traveling a lot of times, finding things to do in the limited places which are easier to get to. It has been said that the TA even wants to get rid of the rest of the Myrtle line, replacing it with a bus (how well would that run; and then there would never be any Manhattan service at all unless you were near the L!). Assemblywoman Canerine Nolan has been the lone voice opposing this.
To summarize:
•South received new trunk line and structures. East only rebuilt existing lines, leaving many obstacles to full integration to rest of system.
•South connected to Midtown trunk lines. Downtown East lines (Myrtle, Fulton) left out though planned to be connected. Rest of East not considered until Chrystie St. connection, which wasn't operated or promoted properly, then given up on for good.
•East area held off to "second system" of IND expansion, then scrapped for good.
•East never upgraded for longer trains, longer cars, Myrtle line to downtown eliminated
•"Lack of ridership" seemingly justifies such a dismal system and not improving accessibility. But which causes which?
(Imagine if the 5th av. el was tied in with the Manhattan Bridge, connected only with Nassau St., and the West End, Sea Beach and Culver connected only to it, and the Brighton took the longer, two track trip via Franklin and Fulton/Ashland.)
So this tells us how things got the way they were, but still, why was the East always made a lower priority. Why on those five critical points was the East either made last priority, or then neglected altogether. I wonder if there was a whole demographic factor, or some urban planning scheme. Was it because the Ridgewood/Bushwick area was primarily facroty workers or something? What is everyone else's take on this? Any ideas from anyone who might know?
So this tells us how things got the way they were, but still, why was the East always made a lower priority. Why on those five critical points was the East either made last priority, or then neglected altogether. I wonder if there was a whole demographic factor, or some urban planning scheme. Was it because the Ridgewood/Bushwick area was primarily facroty workers or something? What is everyone else's take on this? Any ideas from anyone who might know?
I hadn't thought of these issues in exactly the terms you presented, Eric, but there are a few things to be considered.
At the time of the Dual Contracts, downtown was relatively more important as a destination than it is now.
Still, the BRT had plans to improve Eastern Division service that were obstructed by Hylan and lately largely thwarted by the City as it built ICOS.
The 14th Street-Eastern Line, long delayed, was intended to break the transfer bottleneck at Canal Street. This was completed, with direct service to Canarsie and Liberty Avenue.
The Ashland Place Connection was to give the Fulton Line access to Broadway and the Brooklyn Loop System. Killed.
A connection from the Brooklyn Bridge to Chambers Street subway was to increase flexibility and transfers, giving riders of Myrtle, Lex and Fulton access to the Canal Street transfer point. Killed.
The political obstruction thatshafted the Eastern Division was fueled by opposition to private ownership rather than social engineering or urban planning.
And anything involved with the Second System died of its own weight.
The Eastern Division might have been slighted by the BMT, but its residents can't complain about the past 20 years. The Fulton Street line is probably the best in Brooklyn, and the Canarsie Line will be getting CBTC. Meanwhile, the Southern Division is stuck with the Manhattan Bridge.
I my view, the big mistake was building the 14th Street-Eastern Line with just two tracks, rather than four or at least three.
The Eastern Division might have been slighted by the BMT
Just to make the historical point, it wasn't slighted by the BMT.
The Southern Division benefited from the fact that the advancement of the Triboro System meant that the 4th Avenue Subway was already a work-in-progress. The Broadway Line is the heart of Southern Division improvement.
The Eastern Division was "slighted" by time and geography. The "time" element meant that by the time the Eastern Division was to get its share, the City administration didn't want to allow the BMT to do anything to further improve its system.
The BMT continued to look for ways to improve Eastern Division service. That was the whole point of its move toward modern lightweight equipment.
The "geography" element always wondered about, as this area is east/by southeast of Manhattan, and not south or west enough to get the north/south trunk lines out of Manhattan, and not north enough to get lines like the Flushing and Astoria.
Still, if the Myrtle and Lex had been connected to the Triboro system, most of the area would have been properly served.
You could say in a sense that it was slighted by the BMT, in the very fact that it worked on the south first, and connecting Myrtle and the rest of the improvements of the East were all made secondary, allowing more time for them to be killed. This is what kept happening (it repeated again with the IND first/second system)
The Fulton and Canarsie lines are nice, but in certain pockets, the problem is getting to them, adding more transfers and waiting. And yes, having only a 2 track 14th st line also makes things slower.
You could say in a sense that it was slighted by the BMT, in the very fact that it worked on the south first, and connecting Myrtle and the rest of the improvements of the East were all made secondary, allowing more time for them to be killed.
The BMT was a business, and it didn't think in terms of having do something right away or it would be killed. They had coherent plans to improve and expand their entire system. They didn't plan to have a Hylan and LaGuardia in their future, hell-bent on destroying their business. Would the BRT have signed the Dual Contracts if they knew what was to come?
Though it might seem a peripheral question, it might be more useful to speculate why the TA spent a small fortune to finally hook up the Williamsburg Bridge to the 6th and 8th Avenue Lines and then effectively kill it. That would have been a dream for the BMT.
Oh you guys are killing me out there. The poor Eastern Division getting stiffed by the BMT. Have you looked around lately? My Sea Beach hasn;t exactly been the recipient of a multitude of larder from the TA. We still have the Manny B problem and I don;t know of any ED line that has to travel through that filthy Montague rat hole. Quick, get me a hanky, I'm about to break out in tears.
The M train is an Eastern Division line. It goes through the Montague tunnel.
Well then, if you are an M Train fan all I can say is that misery loves company. Try and make sure the train doesn't wind up with rat shit on its outer edges.
As bad as the Montague tunnel is, the Nassau Street Loop has to be the filthiest rat hole on the whole subway system.
Riders along the BMT Eastern Division would trade places any day with the convenience of the Sea Beach.
Does the N have any stop as bad as The Bowery or Essex Street?
Bowery or Essex? What about Chambers!?!?
Photos from Harry Beck's NYCRail.com
The more that I think about it... Sea Beach riders have it much better than Nassau Street straphangers.
LOL. Actually, if you look at the pillar in the extreme right of the photo, there is a paper stating that they treated the area with rodent poison. Obviously, the rats must have walked over from Fred's "Rat infested Montague tunnel"......
And if you want more rats I will do what I can to get those in charge to transfer a whole bunch of them from the Montague to your Nassau hole.
Thanks Fred, with your last two posts you made me laugh out loud.
Thanks Fred, with your last two posts you made me laugh out loud.
ME too. I can't even think of the Montague tunnel without thinking of Fred's "rat infested tunnel", and now Chambers St, the Nassau hole of the system.
Okay Fred, that took me two reads to get it. Now clear the Seabeachage out of the Nassau Hole tunnel.
I will have you know that I rode an M train all the way from Pacific to Metropolitan last week and I didn't see a single rat.
Not there, at least. Myrtle on the L had a bunch.
Not there, at least. Myrtle on the L had a bunch.
Myrtle always seems to have rats. The biggest subway rats I have ever seen in the system, I've seen at Myrtle. Usually though it has been just the normal mice that I have seen at most stations. Hey, it gives you something to do while waiting for the train........
Depends on whether you're talking about the two- or four-legged variety. :)
Chris: Clear the Sea Beach out of Nassau? Hell, I can't even get it out of the Montague rat hole. You see, as a Californian with zero influence with the TA, they can ignore me at will and claim it is the rantings of a lunatic. Some of my Subtalk friends would probably back them up on that score. Well, I can keep on chucking and hope for the best. Glad to hear I'm getting a few laughs. Hope you're laughing with me and not at me. Well, a little of both I can take.
Hope you're laughing with me and not at me. Well, a little of both I can take.
Nah, it's all in fun. Just keep me laughing my Nassau hole off once in a while.
Looking at that picture I can actually smell the rat poo down in the tunnel.
At least you can sit on one train and get to downtown brookyn, downtown Manhattan and Midtown and Queens all in one shot. If you don't like the tunnel, you can transfer right across the platform at DeKalb for the Q. When the Bridge is finished they will almost definitely put your N back on the Bridge, as the TA doesn't think "nobody rides it" (they think "less people" ride it than the other southern lines, but it does not have the stigma of the failed K line or Myrtle line ridership figures). The Eastern section is ironically in the middle of it all, yet the most disconnected from them all.
Let me also add that, in the 1910s - 1940s, Coney Island was a HUGE draw and a big money maker in the days of the "Nickel Empire". The BRT must have felt that the service on the Eastern Division lines was more adequate than service to Coney Island, and therefore, improvements were being made to Coney Island services. Also, the BRT was looking to change their service patterns - where in the 1900s downtown Brooklyn was the primary area that they served, with the creation of Greater New York, the BRT was looking to get service into Manhattan. Most of the Eastern Division services ran to downtown Brooklyn or via the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row. Getting a greater share of Manhattan service was a higher priority than completing Eastern Division service improvements. And as Paul Matus correctly pointed out, the BMT did have a project called the Ashland Place Connection on the table that Hylan wouldn't allow. Had that been built, there would probably be an elevated line running the length of Fulton Street in Brooklyn today and no INDependent Fulton Street line underground.
--Mark
There was a posting about a week or two ago about the CBTC project being a failure, or was it someone playing a joke?
You're right about the 14th St. Canarsie line. They should have had at least three tracks instead of two so that you had an extra track for rush hour express service. Then you would have had a fairly decent line in the neighborhoods where it operates.
#3 West End Jeff
At the time of the Dual Contracts, downtown was relatively more important as a destination than it is now. This was a factor that just occurred to me after I posted. Williamsburg was considered the "other downtown" for a while, but obviously, downtown proper had become more important. Still begs the question of why the Myrtle/Lex and Fulton, which connected downtown with the East got shafted. (Leaving this area connected to williamsburg, but not downtown)
I also forgot to mention how the IRT never seemed to look this way either, though what is now the G line was oroginally apart of the Triboro plan.
Still, the BRT had plans to improve Eastern Division service that were obstructed by Hylan and lately largely thwarted by the City as it built ICOS. OK, so it was HIM again.
The political obstruction thatshafted the Eastern Division was fueled by opposition to private ownership rather than social engineering or urban planning. But there was a whole private system out this way that he could have tried to compete with.
I always thought it was ridiculous that he would build right under the Fulton el, but other more useful plans he had (that would still compete with the privates) such as the second system and even a line all the way down Flatbush were put on the back burner, as he just took out his personal grudges against the BMT. How/why was someone as unstable as this able to become mayor?
But there was a whole private system out this way that he could have tried to compete with.
The Fulton Street Line was the Grande Enchilada of the BMT Eastern Division. This was the area that the Hylan had to compete with first.
I always thought it was ridiculous that he would build right under the Fulton el, but other more useful plans he had (that would still compete with the privates) such as the second system and even a line all the way down Flatbush were put on the back burner, as he just took out his personal grudges against the BMT. How/why was someone as unstable as this able to become mayor?
I'm not sure unstable is exactly the right word. But to answer the question, he was Hearst's candidate, a partner in hatred of "the traction interests."
Did New York really even need the IND when it was built? From what I have heard Mayor Hylan did the whole thing out of spite. The BMT and IRT seemed to be doing a pretty good job and since much of the Hylan's baby actually ran similar routes that the BMT ran, except for the Bronx, I can't see why the IND was built in the first place. Then to make matters worse, they united that system with our BMT which made the best system of all lose its unique identity.
It would be interesting to speculate what might have happened if the IND hadn't been built as a competing entity.
It would be interesting to speculate what might have happened if the IND hadn't been built as a competing entity
Paul: IF the IND hadn't built built it would mean that there would be about 50 % less posts on sub-talk since we wouldn't have this endless speculation about the 76 Street Station.
Larry, RedbirdR33
It would be interesting to speculate what might have happened if the IND hadn't been built as a competing entity
Paul: IF the IND hadn't built built it would mean that there would be about 50 % less posts on sub-talk since we wouldn't have this endless speculation about the 76 Street Station.
But, Larry, it would be more than made up for by the posts asking "WHy didn't they build the IND FIRST System?
Paul: It would be intersting to find out exactly where the First System left off and the Second System began. The turnouts on the Queens Boulevard Line now used by the Archer Avenue Line where orginally intended for something called the "Hillside Avenue Extension." he two center tracks at Second Avenue were to connect to the South Fourth Avenue Line were instead connected one station west to the Chrystie Street Line.
Larry, RedbirdR33
If the IRT and BRT were forced to keep their fare at a nickel and the IND weren't built, I think a lot more of us would be driving!
But let's say the the City did allow the private interests (and let's add the LIRR , NYC, NYW&B and NYNHRR in the mix too) to increase fares to allow for expansion, I wonder what we would have now (talk about alternate universes!)
But let's say the the City did allow the private interests (and let's add the LIRR , NYC, NYW&B and NYNHRR in the mix too) to increase fares to allow for expansion, I wonder what we would have now (talk about alternate universes!)
Given the caveats that LaGuardia and Moses wouldn't have been able to harass the hell out of the private companies. AND that the basic structures of the Dual Contracts and competition survived -- I can't speculate on the railroads, but minimally, based on history, I would expect the following:
The Brooklyn Loop System would have been completed (Brooklyn Bridge-Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, Manhattan Bridge-Montague Street Tunnel). Ashland Place connection would be built. However, Brooklyn Bridge service would be perhaps half what it was in 1939.
The BMT would have gotten a west side subway up Central Park West and an east side subway to compete with the IRT, possibly also merging with the NYW&B.
The BMT would have gotten what is now the GG, partly elevated, and probably forming a loop in Manhattan with Broadway or the new east side line.
The only BMT els I see coming down (absent, of course a big City push agaisnt elevateds) is 5th/3rd south of 36th, probably the whole thing if the BMT got additional subway capacity in the area. And MAYBE the westernmost part of the Fulton L.
The BMT would have had a PCC fleet (Bluebirds or equivalent) as its elevated lines and compromise car. It would have incremnentally upgraded the elevated system as it went.
There would be trolley/light rail in Brooklyn, at least for the majot trunk lines.
The East River bridges would be in better shape than they are now, as the CIty would demand and get increased lease payments from the private companies, who for their part, would have made sure that they weren't allowed to deteriorate.
The BMT and IRT would both have vied for service to then-rural Queens. No prediction as to who would have gotten what where. Surely there would have been at least one additional East River tunnel.
The IRT's corporate culture would have exerted itself in attempting to thwart BMT plans somewhat to the detriment of their own growth.
I'm convinced the new East SIde Subway (2nd OR 3rd Avenue) would be built, IRT, if not BMT. The 2nd Avenue el would almost certainly come down. The 6th and 9th would stay, though the latter might be abandoned south of 53rd Street. This would benefit the IRT by eliminating a great deal of the drah the Manhattan Railways placed on their bottom line.%
I'm wondering if the BMT and IRT would be 2 seperate companies today? Or maybe both recaptured and under the BOT and later TA/MTA? As seperate companies, they might have been able to built more than if they were bought by NYC.
I believe:
The B'way Loop line would have been completed. But parts would have been abondoned by now.
The BMT would have built their west side line from 57/7 to upper Manhattan. There would also be a connection to the BMT Second Ave subway running from the Manhattan Bridge to 125 Street. Maybe it would have gone to the Bronx.
The BMT crosstown El would have started at Queensboro Place. Transfered with the Broadway line at Marcy Ave and ended up connecting with the Franklin Shuttle.
The BRT had an agreement with the LIRR that the BRT would have Brooklyn and the LIRR had Queens. Maybe the BRT would have had such an arraignment with the IRT. BRT mostly in Brooklyn. IRT mostly in the Bronx and in Manhattan the same routes there are now.
If the IRT was able to avoid bankrupty, they might have bought the NYW&B. Keep the service from Dyre Ave to 180 St and maybe have it go to the South Bronx. At least for the yard over there. There it would have been a free transfer to the 2nd and 3rd Ave Els or maybe the line extended a little further to provide a free transfer with the Lexington Ave subway.
Definately the 6th Ave El would have been torn down. The 2nd, 3rd and 9th Ave Els would probably still be in Upper Manhattan. Suicide Curve would probably be a huge topic in subtalk. Further south that 59 St would be a maybe. 9th Ave El could use the West Side Yards at 34 Street. Unless there was a yard or connection to the Lexington Ave subway, the 2nd and 3rd Ave Els would have been both torn down by now.
The LIRR would probaly have 2 divisions. The commuter railroad and its own rapid transit. Probably it would have Rapid Transit service from the Rockaways and the Nassau County line to Manhattan. The Bay Ridge Branch would have connections with the BMT 4th Ave, West End, Sea Beach, Brighton and Jamaica lines. As well as with the IRT around Flatbush/Nostrand. The IRT would likely have extentions from there and maybe a Utica Ave subway would have been built as well.
It's all a matter of what happened in 1940. If the IRT and BMT had not be taken over by NYCBOT, Maybe there would have been alot of lines built in the last 60 years. If they were bought, there probably be alot less routes now. The rapid transit division of the LIRR might have been purchased in the 1950's when the Pennsylvania wanted to unload the LIRR. There might be a C division.
It's all a matter of what happened in 1940. If the IRT and BMT had not be taken over by NYCBOT, Maybe there would have been alot of lines built in the last 60 years. If they were bought, there probably be alot less routes now.
Interesting observation, we could have been better off, with more lines built, but could have been worse off also, with less lines, if instead of building the IND, they just took over the BMT and IRT earlier.
True, the IND paralleled many IRT & BMT routes. Hell, Hylan built the Concourse IND in order to REPLACE the Jerome Ave. el. But the IND built the Queens Blvd and Bklyn-Queens Crosstown. Without those lines, huge areas of Queens would have no subway service (in a borough that still needs more lines!).
Did New York really even need the IND when it was built? From what I have heard Mayor Hylan did the whole thing out of spite.
It was probably needed, but in hindsight, and forgetting the politics involved at the time, unfortunately many of the IND's lines are redundant. As great as the Fulton subway is, it was not necessary, as the mostly rebuilt Fulton el already served the area. The Grand Concourse line is also a great line, but was it necessary so close to the Jerome El? The Manhattan lines were more necessary, as the removal of the els there was a benefit to the aesthetics of Manhattan, plus they were mainly unrebuilt els anyway, unlike the Jerome El (which the concourse was obviously meant to replace) and the Fulton El. The Manhattan Els needed to either be rebuilt or built as subways, and obviously the subways was the better choice.
The money spent on those lines (Concourse & Fulton) would have been much better spent on subways in areas that had no service (like areas of Queens and 2nd Ave, etc; before they even thought of removing perfectly good dual contract era els like the Fulton el, or building on the Concourse so close to the Jerome el.
«The money spent on those lines (Concourse & Fulton) would have been much better spent on subways in areas that had no service (like areas of Queens and 2nd Ave, etc; before they even thought of removing perfectly good dual contract era els like the Fulton el, or building on the Concourse so close to the Jerome el.»
This is just what I was saying. The full length Flatbush line would have definitely been useful. I called Hylan unstable (for lack of better words) because someone who takes rash actions like this always does harm, and I wonder how someone with such obvious problems like that can become elected to such an important office.
But to answer the question, he was Hearst's candidate, a partner in hatred of "the traction interests."
Pretty much like the basket cases supported by Rupert Murdoch today. F'rinstance, Bloomberg and his $2 fare proposal!
At the time of the Dual Contracts, downtown was relatively more important as a destination than it is now.
This was a factor that just occurred to me after I posted. Williamsburg was considered the "other downtown" for a while, but obviously, downtown proper had become more important. Still begs the question of why the Myrtle/Lex and Fulton, which connected downtown with the East got shafted. (Leaving this area connected to williamsburg, but not downtown)
I also forgot to mention how the IRT never seemed to look this way either, though what is now the G line was oroginally apart of the Triboro plan.
Still, the BRT had plans to improve Eastern Division service that were obstructed by Hylan and lately largely thwarted by the City as it built ICOS.
OK, so it was HIM again.
The political obstruction thatshafted the Eastern Division was fueled by opposition to private ownership rather than social engineering or urban planning.
But there was a whole private system out this way that he could have tried to compete with.
I always thought it was ridiculous that he would build right under the Fulton el, but other more useful plans he had (that would still compete with the privates) such as the second system and even a line all the way down Flatbush were put on the back burner, as he just took out his personal grudges against the BMT. How/why was someone as unstable as this able to become mayor?
Wow, my head is spinning after that.
ANyway, all of what you said is true, and I agree with most of it. I lived in Ridgewood for a time, so I understand completely the frustration. Basically anywhere I would go, using the system would require at least one transfer, and most times at least two transfers (having to use at least 3 different lines to get to your destination). Many of this could have been solved simply by allowing the K route to run (which failed because of the time when they were doing it, and the way it was run). Without that route the 3 train transfer is almost commonplace.
However, I'm still grateful the M and L line (and J) even still exists. It could be worse. I could have lived along the Myrtle where it was removed all togehter, or in many areas of Queens where subway service never existed, even to this day. So even though much of the Eastern Division is not perfect and leaves much to be desired, it beats the alternative - no service. It's definitely the lesser of two evils. Besides, the Broadway El/Jamaica El/M line El is one of the most interesting el runs in the system.
Eric: This is an excellent post. You certainly put alot of time and thought into it.
If I may I would like to add a few thoughts of my own as to the reason that the BMT never quite developed to its full potential.
1) Imperfect implementation of the Dual Contracts
2) Irreconcilable differences between the subway and elevated lines
3) Competition from the IRT
4) Mayor Hyland
5) A predatory IND
6) the East River
7) the natural gregariousness of Brooklynites.
For simplicity's sake I shall refer to both the BRT and the BMT as the BMT.
1 and 2)Imperfect implementation of the Dual Contracts
Irreconcilable differences between the subway and elevated lines
The BMT concept of the Dual Contracts aside from third tracking some elevated lines was to construct three loop lines through Manhattan; i.e. Broadway, Centre Street, and Nassau Street. The only part that really had any rationale was the Broadway-Fourth Avenue Subway. The Centre Street and Nassau Street Loops are essentially one line that was overbuilt and underused. The inherent differences in car size between the BMT and IRT prevented the full utilzation of the Astoria and Flushing Lines and the inherent differences between the BMT's own subway and elevated cars prevented full intergration of the southern and eastern division el lines with the new subway. The lack of sufficient track access to Manhattan simply meant that the bottleneck at Sands Street was replaced by another one at Dekalb Avenue.
3) Competition from the IRT
This in and of itself was not a bad thing. However the IRT was well established in Manhattan and resisted any invasion of its territory. Even prior to the building of the subway the Manhattan Railway had the largest transit system in the US. The IRT probably because of its corporate connections with both the Pennsylvania and New York Central Railroads went for standardization in a large degree.
The BMT because of its diverse service requirements went for innovative and varied designs but really did not develop a homogenous fleet. In the end the competition produced a very useful rapid transit car, the IND R 1/9. It had the IRT's standarization with many aspects of the BMT Standards.
4) Mayor Hyland
Anytime one discusses the shortcomings of the BMT as well as the New York transit system as a whole Mayor Hyland's name seems to come up. Hyland did hate the BMT but he also had very little love for the IRT. I wonder if he ever liked anything other than his own political agenda.
5) A predatory IND
The building of the IND in several cases came at the expense of the BMT. There was talk of "recapture of the lines." As if the BMT had somehow stolen them from the city in the first place. In some instances this resulted in passengers having to make a longer and more circuitous trip. Traveling from Lefferts Boulevard to Manhattan via the IND is like going from the New York to San Francisco via Cape Horn. (For those of you not up on your geometry that the tip of South America)
6) the East River
the East River is a tidal strait which for many years was a barrier to the full developement of the BMT. The BMT on its own did not have the resources to cross the river and while it could adequetely serve Brooklyn it couldn't get accross the river until someone else built a bridge.
7) the natural gregariousness of Brooklynites
From its earliest days Brooklynites, with one or two exceptions, have been a friendly and inquisive group of people who have had a great interest in their neighbors in Manhattan. Brooklynites however have one unfortunate shortcoming, most are poor swimmers and the East River was a daunting barrier. Once the Brooklyn Bridge was built it was possible for them to vist Manhattan on a regular basis and they became so enamoured of the place that until the present time many of them get up very early ever day and vist there friends in Manhattan for several hours. This has created demands on the trans-East River transit systems far beyond what the designers of the BMT had ever planned for.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Nice Comments and Insights.
: ) Elias
«In some instances this resulted in passengers having to make a longer and more circuitous trip. Traveling from Lefferts Boulevard to Manhattan via the IND is like going from the New York to San Francisco via Cape Horn. (For those of you not up on your geometry that the tip of South America)»
Huh? That run is pretty straight! If it seems long, it's because of the distance.
Wouldn't it be nice, though, if there was a super-express bypass splitting from the line westbound at, say, Utica or Nostrand, running non-stop, and rejoining the line east of High St.? That rush-hour line would get its own letter designation (<H> or <K>), and operate to Rock Park, thus eliminating the multiple-terminal confusion on the (A).
Come to think of it, I'd probably also run that line express up 6th Av. as well, possibly terminating at 57th. That makes our letter codes (<H> or <K>).
I can dream, can't I?
Paul, might I interject with that -- historically -- the neighborhoods in the Brooklyn's 'East End' were not been politicially savy in those days to fanagal and/or secure funding for projects in relevant to the needs of the population.
The Eastern (or more accurately -- former Easter Divisions -- are primarily classic Els with curves that restrict the size of equipment that can be used on the lines. Even the Canarsie Line's subway sections through Williamsburg and Bushwick restrict car lengths due to the sharp curves in tunnels.
I stand by my contention that lack of political clout was the prime reason for the seeming neglect of the Eastern Divsion.
Political savvy-- that would also sound like a good cause
...or lack of it....(that was my point)
I've never seen the history and plans of the BMT East and BMT South described so well in one Subtalk post before. The sad part is, the TA has the connection between the Williamsburg Bridge and the 6th Avenue subway right there. Why won't they use it? Ridership patterns and traffic in New York are not the same as they were in the 70s.
When you mentioned that the TA actually considered killing off the remaining section of the Myrtle Line, I thought, "WHY? They'd rather kill of the whole Myrtle Line than use the Chrystie-Williamsburg connection?" It makes no sense. Way to encourage more people to use mass transit, MTA! Kill of Myrtle and more people are going to drive or use car services to work, not less.
The TA should be finding creative ways to encourage people not to drive to work. The proposed MM service could be one of them. Rather than have the V dead-end at 2nd Avenue or duplicate the F in Brooklyn to Church Avenue, why not let it go through the Chrystie connection and run to Metropolitan Avenue? This is not the same as the old infrequent, rush-hour-only KK service. This should be a seven-day-a-week service running at least 18 hours a day. I honestly think it can work and it is worth a try. BMT East riders deserve quality subway service to midtown Manhattan. They don't have it now.
A good way for the TA to find creative ways to do anything on the subways and the system would be for them to moniter Subtalk and take our advice.
The first thing they should look up are the threads about the Second Ave. subway.
The way things developed, we just became invisible to them. In the 70's, Bushwick became largely bombed out, and the working class past Wyckoff had their service on weekdays, and I guess used cars the rest of the time. Now even with all the minorities it is still largely cars/SUV's (Cypress went from having only one traffic light to having one on overy corner in the 10 years I've been here). So there isn't much demand. People have just built their livelihood around the obstacles. But to me who doesn't have a car, it's rough.
So the planners just figure "Well, if we take away the Myrtle, they have the L, and we'll give them a bus to connect with it". They don't realize that there are large areas not in the Wyckoff corridor, and buses are a very slow, unreliable alternative. (the same for the old Montauk line plans. That was supposed to replace the Myrtle also. It would help the people around Fresh Pond and Metropolitan, but there is still a large area between that intersection and Wyckoff.)
But thankfully, they don't seem to be pushing eliminating the Myrtle, especially since they're rebuilding the transfer point.
I'm glad to hear the TA backed off from that proposal. It would have been a big mistake to have gone through with that. But they should still consider reusing the Chrystie-Williamsburg Bridge connection, even though they're going to rebuild the transfer between the L and the M.
You know,in the past I've posted my ''feelings'' about the Eastern Division[under Love9400]service... and you've summed it up very well.I've always said the T.A would rather get ride of the whole kit n kabottle than deal with it,and replace everything with buses!
The Eastern Division could really do (or even have done) with much lighter trains - then bits like lower Myrtle, Lexington and maybe even the Brooklyn Bridge might have survived. This would easily be possible as the Eastern Division is easily isolated from the rest of the subway... oh well...
It doesn't have to be that way at all... Thats what the Chrystie street subway connectrions there for...thur routing Eastern trains TO MIDTOWN.. via 6th ave,8th ave and /or 2nd ave[from the original proposal].Track connections to the Fulton street subway[ENY].... MAN O MAN i CAN GO ON AND ON FOREVER ABOUT IT!!!!
I don't understand why they don't retry the Willy B-6th Ave service. There is a small exodus at Essex from the J and M at rush hours (and even off peak) of people transfering to the F at Delancey. It didn't work in the late 60's-early 70's because of the time - Broadway was in complete shambles, and getting worse. It's frequency and timeframe was terrible. I think it would become a very well used line if they would try it again, with better planning.
Some possible suggestions would be:
-Get rid of J/Z skip stop service, have the J run local to Broad, and have the Z run express along Broadway to the 6th Ave line.
-Keep the J/Z skip stop service, and extend the V train to Canarsie, via Broadway express (would require the V to use 60 foot 8 car trains, so a slight increase in headways may be necessary).
-Combine the M and the V via Broadway El Local. Keep the J/Z skip stop service, having the Z terminate at Broad, and extend the J to Brooklyn, replacing the M. This would also require the V (or M) on 6th Ave to become 8 car 60 foot cars, thus also increasing headways a bit.
Switch all locals at W 4th so that Es go to Culver, Fs to WTC, Vs to Euclid.
Then combine the C and the M.
See http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=412975 for details.
Not bad ideas at all. However, V service on Broadway would be unethical. The Z train can be used to run along 6 Ave. The only problem is that it needs a northern terminal not so far uptown. Coney Island R32's can supplement M trains while the Z can use the extra R40m/R42 trainsets to provide this service. V trains may need to be rerouted in order for efficiency of the Chrystie St connector to function properly. V trains can be rerouted via Manhattan Bridge(when it reopens) and serve 4 Ave Local service to 95 Street.
However, V service on Broadway would be unethical.
I mean Broadway Brooklyn, not Manhattan. The V ends at 2nd Ave now, so it shouldn't matter if the after Bway-Lafayette the V went to Essex Street instead. The only station that would loose service is 2nd ave itself.
That is what I meant, Broadway in Bklyn, not Manhattan. Sorry if I got you confused there pal.
Unethical???
I guess I owe an explanation regarding "unethical". Should Z trains ever make it to the 6 Ave trunkline, flexiblility is needed for the Chrystie St Connector from Broadway-Laffayete station. Rush Hour headways on this track for F, V, and Z trains would be a dispatcher's nightmare. It was posted earlier that V trains should run through the "Connector" to Canarsie via Broadway. Of course we all know V trains operate with R46's and would require a change to 8 car 60 footers. This is where "unethical" comes in. The V train is a major trunkline which covers Queens Blvd, 53 Street, and 6 Ave. While not so many V trains are crowded, 8 car 60 footers are not enough to travel along Queens Blvd and 6 Ave. G train was an exception, but did not run into Manhattan. V trains can operate over the Manhattan Bridge to 95 Street and 4 Ave when the Manhattan Bridge reopens. And a fleet change is not required as well as an increase to 4 Ave local service south of 36 Street. Z trains can run from Jamaica across the Willy B and follow the route of the old KK/K trains. The only downside to this is finding a northern terminus for the Z. Originally, these trains terminated at 57 St/6 Ave, but now we have 63 Street. Push come to shove, Z trains can terminate at either 168 St, 207 St, 145 St or an unheard of starting point at 205 St in the Bronx. Now that will be the ride of the century at a railfan window on an R40m/R42. Imagine riding from the Bronx to Jamaica on just one train.
"The only downside to this is finding a northern terminus for the Z."
This is why I keep saying: switch all the local services at W 4th so that the C runs over the WB (and becomes the M or the Z), the V goes to Euclid, the E goes to Culver and the F to WTC.
For an operation like that, would you like to man the tower at West 4 Street? I sure wouldn't.
"For an operation like that, would you like to man the tower at West 4 Street? I sure wouldn't."
Not a problem as long as you switch all locals. There are flying crossovers. Nothing merges as long as all 6th Ave locals go one way and all 8th Ave locals go the other way. It's all clear on the track map.
Maybe it's better to leave it as is. But you are right though. Thanks for sharing.
I was watching Ch 5 at 10pm, shortly before I came on and they report that a man looking for the 6 train by looking over the platform edge got hit in the face at 51 Street. It happened esrlier today or last night, I didn't pay attention, anyway, the guy is in serious condition. I hope he fully recovers from his injuries.
>>> they report that a man looking for the 6 train by looking over the platform edge got hit in the face at 51 Street <<<
If he was that nearsighted, he should have asked someone else to tell him if the train was coming. :-)
Tom
I heard about that. That takes brains to put your head over the edge of the Platfrom when the train is entering the station.
I guess that the guy's brains needed rearranging if he looked the wrong way at 51st and Lex. Unless the man was legally blind or legally deaf. Then, he has my sympathies.
If any birdbrain has any understanding unlike us subtalkers do, I will say THIS: A train operator has one of the most stressful jobs there is. Unlike a car, he/she cannot "swerve" to avoid hitting a person leaning over the edge. And the biggest point of all, all it takes is one asshole to disrupt subway service, incovenience up to 100,000 people during rush hour (happened on the Lex of all places), and cause grief and pain on the victim, the T/O. And if the jerk that had his face whacked by a steel train, if he tried to sue NYCT, I hope he does NOT GET A SINGLE PENNY FOR HIS STUPID ACTIONS.
Anyone that disagrees with me, then stand on the s/b platform at Times Square on the BMT side at the north end of the station.
Hope not too especially after that one incident that was discussed here earlier in the year about a woman who sued the TA and WON! For god sake's,she was in the f***ing tracks in the tunnel!! She definantly was on a suicide mission and failed.So since she failed, she figured she'd sue the TA for the most stupidest piece of crap I ever heard and by some twist of fate,she won the damn case!
Getting back on topic,if the guy was both blind AND deaf,then I feel sorry for him.
All i got to say is, he didn't hear the train coming?
Apparently not.
Here's my opinion on this.
If the guy was disabled in any way[i.e. legally blind, deaf, etc.] then it was a unfortunate accident. However, if he was fine with no disability & looked the wrong way, then he's dumb for even looking for a train, especially on the 6 which is what every 5-6 minutes tops DAILY, all day. That's just being stupid, IMO.
>>> If the guy was disabled in any way[i.e. legally blind, deaf, etc.] then it was a unfortunate accident. <<<
And if he was just absent minded, thinking of something else like getting home to a wife and kids, it was no longer unfortunate? Interesting way to look at it.
Tom
Ok, wrong choice of words. If he was disabled, then its not really his fault but if the guy was fine, it was possible that he was absent minded, its still unfortunate BUT if he was 'perfectly' fine, what is he doing looking in the tunnel in the first place [especially the wrong way].
If he was disabled, then its not really his fault but if the guy was fine, it was possible that he was absent minded, its still unfortunate BUT if he was 'perfectly' fine, what is he doing looking in the tunnel in the first place [especially the wrong way].
It's not impossible to imagine that someone completely unfamiliar with the subway system might indeed look in the wrong direction. No idea if that was the case with this person, however.
ITEM #1Last weekend I participated in a citywide emergency preparedness drill. Simulated derailment - evacuations through the emergency exit - injuries - crime scene - the whole works. On the tunnel wall, across from the emergency exit were arrows showing the normal direction of train traffic.
ITEM #2If you go to Penn Station, you'll see signs on all of the LIRR track platforms, pointing to the front of the train, It's quite simple - you do not have to be "dumb" to become disoriented under ground.
Bottom line it is not beyond the realm of possibility that this person simply became confused on the platform. I've heard nothing to suggest anything to the contrary.
I agree!
If he was blind why was he LOOKING for a train?
"Legally" blind means that you can still see some things, but not clearly. And apparently, corrective lenses are of no help either. Sort of like "Mr. Magoo", if you will!
Sorry, I wasn't quite awake when I read your post this morning.
Maybe it's time for 'Railroad Crossing' signs (buckeyes) on the edge of station platforms, so that some people would get the full picture...:)
Or maybe revitalize the old car gate pantograph technology, mount a boxing glove on the end of a long scissor arm and allow the train operator to pull on it, knocking the individuals away from the platform edge as the train pulls into the station, Spanky and Our Gang style ...
I think your idea has merit....;)
I did something like that when I was a C/R. A drunk decided to board the train between cars just as we were pulling out, so I reached out and gave him a shove away from the train and continued on my merry way.
Isn't it just amazing though what happens on the road? I've had people run after the train, hoping to grab something, bounce off the carbody and fall on their butt on the platform. Never a dull moment. :)