...& da' bases were loaded !!
taped the lirr babylon branch without any problems took a ton of
photos yesterday no problems enjoyed it 100% it was beautiful !!!
wooppee!!now dats' hittin a real home run wit' da' bases loaded! lol!
too bad you cant shoot video anymore on the nyc subway anymore !!
what a shame !! is that not awful !!! ugh !!!!!!!!!
yeaterday was wonderful everything went 100% well yea baby !!!
sweet revenge on long beach !! dont get mad get even !!!
Finally!
thankz! its off to RONKONKOMA today !! cant wait to see this too !!
this is what i cme here 4 folks !!
to see and enjoy !!
""Y""' ....??......!!...is that so hard 2 get across ??
...i dunno.........
The Ronkonkoma Branch is very interesting. Get over to the Port Washington Branch also before you go though! That is one of the nicest electric branches (you seem to love electrics), and nice stations, and the Manhassett Viaduct is not to be missed.
question....how about Oyster bay ??
electrics there too ?? ...zone #7 ...
thankz
Nope, Oyster Bay is diesel only.
Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Montauk Branch
Port Jefferson Branch from Huntington to Port Jefferson
Oyster Bay
are all diesel only branches.
All the other branches are electric.
thank you .
Well here it is after much delay:
SubTalkers Afterwork Fieldtrip to the Beaches of Rock and Long (Delayed from last Month).
This is the promised End-of-Summer railfan trip that had to be postponed for a number of reasons (mainly conflicting events).
Trip Date: Friday, October 4
Time: 5:30 PM (Jay Street station)
What to bring: One FunPass and a Hearty Appetite
Trip itinerary:
Meet at the Jay Street platform of the southbound 'A' train (headend) at 5:30 p.m.. We will wait for the first Far Rockaway-bound 'railfan window train' (meaning an R-32 or R-38 consist). If we don't have any luck, we will board whatever Far-Rock train arrives and take it to Mott Ave.
At Mott (last stop) we will board an N44 for the ride to Long Beach. We'll take it to the last stop (LIRR terminal). We will walk to Sui's Szechuan Restaurant, 40 E. Park Ave., almost across the street from the main LIRR terminal building. It might be slightly east of the station, but is a prominent establishment on the avenue.
For the return trip, some may take the LIRR to points in Brooklyn, Queens or Manhattan. However, for those with MetroCards the trip can be reversed to get back to the city. Also, for those residing on Long Island, there is the alternative of the local bus routes to points north where connecting east-west running buses are available, also via MetroCard.
Hopefully we will have a nice crowd for this excursion. This is a scenic, leisurely trip with photo ops along the way (Jamaica Bay, Howard Beach AirTrain facility, etc).
I'll be there with Fun Pass in hand to take a very l-o-n-g way home.
The LI Bus #15 drops me 1 1/2 blocks from home.
Bring you significant other, as there are some realy nice spots along the LI Bus #33 route that you can drop off at to have a lovely dinner on this Friday night. The spot we intend to end up in is very nice, reasonably priced and has a very large round table. The last time we were there with SubSurf & Heypaul the other customers thought we were tourist vs. railfans because Heypaul was videoing us.
Actually, there's a BIG advantage to being a "tourista" than a "foamer on the loose" ... HeyPaul did you a favor, looks like YOU owe HIM some money. Heh.
T, you leaving from work?
The wife is off camping with da nephew (cub scouts) so I'll leave from work 4pm or 430pm. Queens/Queensboro Plaza
'bout time ya made a Long Beach Trip :)
At this point my gardson, Justin, says he wants to join us, so I'll be coming from home on LIRR.
We could also find out what imprint Salaam left on Long Beach...LOL!
Bring those pics from this past weekend. That might do the trick.
Paul
Paul, as long as you'll show up...I'll bribe ya with the pics! :)
Besides, after driving around the midnight hour last Saturday, you deserve to chill out and relax with some good company...
Perhaps I can bribe you with a ice cold beer. Interested?
Your're right. Need to chill after Saturday night.
Make it a Molson's and I'll take ya up on that offer! ;)
You got it.
Hope you guys have fun.
But I don't know what kind of photo ops you're going to get with it being dark out. (Hint: the flash ain't gonna do you any good).
Not doing it so much for the photo ops...but I did take into consideration that we should do this trip BEFORE we go back to turning our clocks forward...
Hey Dougie,
It's fall back and spring forward.
Also we gotta watch out for Lizzie or whatever the 'L' storm is.
;| ) Sparky
Yeah some bad news on that, looks like the remnants of Lizzie may affect us with showers Friday. If it looks like it's gonna rain I may not be able to go. A 35 min walk back in wind and rain from Sea Cliff LIRR is a sure way to get sick.
No, it's a sure way to get wet. Rain brings water, not disease.
Or mugged, long walk watch out for muggers in the corners....
Sounds like the water'll melt ya or something...
It's not as much the rain from the sky, but the flooding. In Sea Cliff, puddles up to ones knees aren't uncommon in good gully washers.
If it rains, I'm still gonna do the railfanning, but I'll skip the beach.
John, sounds like you need a rowboat...
BTW, we're NOT literally going to the Beach. Just the last stop on the N33 (thanks VTrain). And almost across the street from there is the restaurant. So we will not be walking over to the Long Beach Boardwalk if that was what you feared...
Yah, the beach is 3 blocks away, I don't think we'll find knee deep pools of water that muggers hide in and do a Rambo on ya.
Long Beach probably has better drainage than Sea Cliff. :-0
Anyway, some good news, it may not rain Friday after all as Lili has slowed down. Lili will pound the Gulf coast though.
As long as that ain't Lizzie Borden we'll do fine...:)
On a previous trip, I think it was RIP TA42 Hope Tunnel, aka Mike, who snapped this realy great shot of the LIRR station at Long Beach just as the sun was going down.
good luck with the trip.whish i could go since I know Long Beach fairly well.And plus its the N33,not 44.
Thanx for the correx...
Also wanna mention that there's a 33 out Far Rock at 6:20,6:45,and 7:20 PM.Those are the best times if your leaving from Jay St. at 5:30PM.By the way,why does it have to be so late? If it were earlier,I might go.
Yeah I wish it were earlier too! I live in Sea Cliff (the boonies of the North Shore) and getting home is real pain at that hour. I have to take the N15 to Mineola and then wait for the 10:20pm Oyster Bay train. Last N21 out of Flushing is at 9:50pm, and the last N27 out of Hempstead is 6:28pm. I wind up walking home at 11pm from the dark deserted Sea Cliff station. I'd get home earlier if I lived in NYC!
Still, as long as the weather that day is nice I'm probably going.Hey maybe I could raise money for a hotel room to stay the night in Long Beach!:-0
Hey, John, if it's warm enough save your money and sleep on the beach!
you mean take the N15 to Hempstead then take the N40/41 to Mineola.the 15 doesnt go to Mineola
The 15 does go to Mineola, just not Mineola terminal, it stops a few blocks away. Actually I do transfer to the 40/41 since the bus that I usually take (remember u gotta allow lots of extra time with LI Bus) terminates at Hempstead anyway.
Considering on the last LB trip, I left around 9pm, didn't get home till 11:30pm, Sea Cliff is one b** of a location.
I love the Long Beach trips but I just wish they were earlier.
If I could get to Flushing before 9:50pm from Long Beach, it wouldn't be so bad. The last N21 Glen Cove is at 9:50pm. Hicksville gets the last bus east of Roslyn, at 10:20pm.
a few blocks away where? I sure as hell never seen it around there before and I've taken that bus numerous times already and never seen it go anywhere near Mineola.
N15 stops at Old Country road and County Seat Dr, a 5 minute walk from the LIRR station.
Well something came up so I can't go anyway, so I hope you all have fun!
ok ok.I just looked at the schedule and your right it does serve Mineola but the only timepoint I saw for Mineola was Old Country Road/Washington Ave.Is that close to Mineola Term.?
Some people have to wait to finish WORK. 5:30pm is a nice time even if you get out at work at 6pm, an hour leave doesn't hurt much.
Anything much earlier I couldn't get out of work for.
Yeah I understand. I just happen to live in a pretty isolated area.
I wish they'd bring back the Sea Cliff trolley. It used to run from Sea Cliff LIRR to the village. It would connect with LIRR trains.
Why can't the village provide a bus at least? Funny how the station name is "Sea Cliff" but it's in Glen Cove, and Sea Cliff is a 30 minute walk away. Perhaps "Sea Cliff avenue" is a more appropraie name!
Nothing makes sense here in the boonies...
Dear Qtraindash,
There is bus that goes around through Sea Cliff. You should inquire about it at the Village Hall. I have seen it around town. As far as a trolley system goes, this was around when Sea Cliff was a small Methodist colony and that was the main transportation for that area. If fact, it was used to transport visitors from the steamboat to the main street area.
From Long Beach the only bus north is the #15, but you can catch the #4 to Jamaica at Rockville Center. For a bus buff a nice ride. I would suggest the LIRR at Long Beach.
In John's case going cross island is a pain.
V Train, I work till 5pm, but use 5:30 since there may be other 9 to 5ers who may be coming from Manhattan and/or points in Queens so the extra 1/2 hour gives enough leeway for all parties concerned to meet at Jay Street. Guess your not a 9to5er?
Could you be at Jay St. by 5pm?
Well with the possibility of roast pork at the end of this trip, I may just have to go. :-)
No matter WHERE you order...
Roast Pork Fried Rice is truly one MYSTICAL dish, brah.
This place is very nice, but didn't see a young people doing the serving last time :-(
what time is this trip going to end? i might wanna go, but i gotta work that night in Grand Central at 11
End it when you want. Look at the LIRR schedule from Long Beach as to the last train you can catch that will get you to GCT (via NYP) in time. You might even want to go to Flatbush for the easy transfer to the 4/5 to GCT.
The LIRR out of Long Beach should be going about 7:49; 8:53; 9:57; etc.
N33 at Mott Ave is 6:45; 7:20; 7:45; 8:20; 9:20; etc.
You should have no problems getting there by 11pm. Long Beach LIRR train is fast! You'll probably get to work sooner than I'll get home!
If you take the 8:48pm train you'll get to Penn at 9:41pm. I will take that same train this time, but will have to wait till 10:07pm for the yokel OB train back home. I could also take the N15 to Mineola, but I may do LIRR all the way this time.
With transit, GCT is much easier to get to, vs the lousy crap hole called Sea Cliff which I live in!
Hi Folks,
I was out on the West End line today and it looks like I may have a discrepancy in a couple of home signal numbers, and I was hoping some intrepid West Ender could fill me in.
What I'm looking for are the new signal numbers northbound, protecting the diamond crossover south of Bay Parkway (i.e. I have to try and find a W that I can see a little bit out of the front of!).
My prints are very difficult to read (about 5th generation), and I though I had X-D558-ball on D2 and either X-D562 or X-D582 ball on D4-track. Well, after two passes through there on R-68s this afternoon, I though I saw X-D562 on the middle track (D4) and 5X-D536-ball protecting the D2 to D4 crossover going north. Nothing in my prints looks even close to X-D536. Short of begging a T/O to open the door for 15 seconds south of Bay Parkway, is there any kind soul on board who can verify these signal numbers?
Thanks in advance.
p.s. Anybody willing to have a go at the 63rd St. mystery that I originally posted the other night?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
I have a cab view on the West End heading north out of Stillwell that I videotaped this summer (one of the Nostalgia trains). Send me your address and I'll send it to you. You should (I hope) be able to read the home signal numbers that you are trying to verify.
--Mark
I have a cab view on the West End heading north out of Stillwell that I videotaped this summer (one of the Nostalgia trains). Send me your address and I'll send it to you. You should (I hope) be able to read the home signal numbers that you are trying to verify.
Hi Mark,
Thanks very much for your kind offer (and I'll gladly take you up on it :-)), but these new signals were just put in service within the last few weeks and I suspect your tape might not have the new ones.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Hi Folks,
I was out at Rockaway Parkway this afternoon and I saw some interesting things going on, in addition to the new diamond crossover that looks to be about half complete.
They're signaling the yard, but what's really curious to me is what's going on with the signals on the main line between E. 105 and Rockaway Parkway. I stood at the front of the platform at E. 105, and walked the platform at Rock Park and noticed a number of new automatic and home signals waiting to be placed in service. Nothing too exciting there until I took a quick look at some contractor's chaining marks near these various home signals.
This is all considered "Line P" south of Broadway Junction, but the contractor's marks near each of these signals said "Q1" or "Q2" (and a couple said "Q3"!) and a stationing number! Am I correct in my belief that the Canarsie line is about to get re-stationed at the southern extremity? If so, what about the Northern extremity--between 6th and 8th Ave? Isn't it considered Line QW there (or is it now all Q)?
Thanks in advance to anyone who may have the answers to these mysteries.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
That's correct. The entire line is being re-chained, and QW
is being eliminated.
I suppose there's no point in retaining the "P" route letter any more, since the Fulton (chained from Park Row) is history, so there is no possibility of chaining number conflict any more, and they can chain the entire Canarsie Line from 8th Avenue.
Of course, if they extend the Canarsie Line west to Javits or NJ, as some would like, it'll be deja vu all over again.
I assume route "O", the Franklin Shuttle still retained the old chaining numbers when the line was rebuilt?
It is possible for someone to dumb this down so that we who aren't TA signal experts understand what y'all are talkin' about?
Each subway and elevated line has a route letter for signalling purposes. This has nothing whatever to do with the train's route letters--it is for signal and track location purposes.
For example, the route from Coney Island via Brighton, over the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and up the Broadway Line is BMT Route "A".
Each of these lines if also "chained." Chaining is a measurement from a fixed point, called "chaining zero" to a specific location along that line. The original IND has a single "chaining zero." The BMT and IRT have a number, often reflecting the history of the individual parts of the system.
The number one way a railfan becomes aware of this system is from the signals. For example, a signal showing a plate marked:
A2
210
would mean that it was one the Broadway-Brighton Line, track two, and approcmately 21,000 feet, or about four miles south of 57th and 7th Avenue, where chaining zero for the Brighton Line is located.
The reason this bears on the current discussion is that, because of its piecemeal history, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line has a number of route letters and a variety of "chaining zeros," so that the letters on the signals change as you move down the line, and the chaining numbers likewise jump around.
Now that they are putting in all new signals, it would appear that they are going to use a single letter "Q" and a single chaining zero, at 8th Avenue and 14th Street.
A2
210
would mean that it was one the Broadway-Brighton Line, track two, and approcmately 21,000 feet, or about four miles south of 57th and 7th Avenue, where chaining zero for the Brighton Line is located
Well, it could mean that...but this isn't the best example to give as there are several "Line A" designations. IND uses Line A as the 8th Avenue lines, and the BMT uses it for Broadway and Brighton. The Transit Museum stub and the WTC terminal are also Line A.
Just for hoots and grins, I looked in the books, and there are no A2/210 signals that I could easily find (I admit, I didn't look too hard)--but if it were on the IND, it would likely be somewhere east of the bulkhead past Pitkin Yard...maybe somewhere around 76th Street! < ducking >. Seriously, the bumper block east of Pitkin Yard is chaned as A2-411, and goes up from there, so....
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Well, it could mean that...but this isn't the best example to give as there are several "Line A" designations.
Ah, but earlier in the post I specifically said "BMT Line A."
Ahhh, now I understand. But you'd have thought this would have been done years ago. The current 14th St. line hasn't been changed since 1956 (when the Lefferts/14th St. line was eliminated).
I suppose there's no point in retaining the "P" route letter any more, since the Fulton (chained from Park Row) is history, so there is no possibility of chaining number conflict any more, and they can chain the entire Canarsie Line from 8th Avenue.
Actually, as far as I've been able to tell, Line P has always been just the Canarsie line from Broadway Junction to the end (Rock Park or whatever its southern terminus was before being cut back).
The Fulton El was Line K, indeed, chained from Park Row.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Line P is just the Canarsie Line, but sources say chaining zero is at Pitkin and Van Sinderin. If so, what is the chaining on "P" signals west of that point?
Line P is just the Canarsie Line, but sources say chaining zero is at Pitkin and Van Sinderin. If so, what is the chaining on "P" signals west of that point?
Line P basically starts at Pitkin and Van Sinderen and continues south from there (still does). The whole thread of the question revolved around whether or not Line P--the southern end of the Canarsie line--would be re-chained as Line Q, which is the bulk of the Canarsie line, with a chaining-zero point at 14th and 6th. The extension west to 8th AVe was chained as Line QW at one point, but I don't see any references to QW still on my prints any more.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
the southern end of the Canarsie line--would be re-chained as Line Q, which is the bulk of the Canarsie line, with a chaining-zero point at 14th and 6th. The extension west to 8th AVe was chained as Line QW at one point, but I don't see any references to QW still on my prints any more.
Earlier posts here indicate that they are rechaining the entire line, with the new chaining zero being 8th Avenue and 14th Street, so no more QW.
The new survey marks are on the walls, covered by tape.
Peter: If I remember correctly the 14 Street Line west of 6 Avenue reads Q-1W and Q-2W.
I believe that the loop track at Broklyn Bridge reads MM-3L also.
I might be mistaken though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Peter: If I remember correctly the 14 Street Line west of 6 Avenue reads Q-1W and Q-2W
Hi Larry,
You are indeed correct about the extension West of 6th Ave, and the depiction on signal faces. I wasn't sure how it was handled until I read your post, so I looked in the books and sure enough, that's exactly how they're numbered. I'm willing to bet that they're either about to put in new signals or renumber the existing ones on the Western extension as well. That's one area that I haven't visually checked in about 6 months, so I'll do it for the next revision.3
Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Yesterday(Monday) before I signed in at ENY I went looking thought the barn tracks. There were three new sets of R143's inside being preped for testing.
The Number were:
8221-8224
8225-8228
8229-8232
Later at night I saw set 8229-8232 hook up to 8201-8204 going over the Willy B heading to the city, while on my J trian going to Queens. 8229-8232 did have power to it so it was not just bing pulled. I guess that it might have been heading to Piken Yard to be ran on the test track out on the flats of the Rocks.
Robert
P.S. One more thing I did not see 8221-8228 at around 11:30pm Monday night anywere inside the yard. I think that were transferd to Caransie yard for burn in testing.
Robert
Listen to you Mr. "North-Eastern B division T/0" talking about the J train, the Willy B, and R-143's when all I have to look forward to is the trip to the Bronx everyday.
Kidding aside, are you OPTO qualified, and have you had the chance to operate the M OPTO on weekends?
I am OPTO qualified, but did not pick it this pick on the M. The only jobs that were left were the last jobs on Saturday and Sunday. They started at 7:15pm and 6:30pm respectly. That was to late for me to be getting home expecial on Monday moring, since my wife has to be on the 4:15am bus to get to by 6:00am. I did do OPTO on the G last pick all weekend.
Robert
Tell me more about these OPTO jobs in the B division. I am especially interested in those late jobs on the M line. I hope to be able to pick those next pick. I'd do anything to go to the B division. Late PM's on the M or G or 4 trips on the J from Jamaica to Chambers. It all sounds good to me. Are these late PM jobs high or low seniority? I'm hoping to be able to pick B division next pick.
"...G or 4 trips on the J from Jamaica to Chambers. It all sounds good to me."
You can have it. I fill out all of the VR bids on the sheet (76 chioces in order of preference) just to avoid those two. 3 on the G was not too bad with a conductor, but as OPTO, it's murder.
Hey, I have to start somewhere. It's still better than being on the board at 149/Mott at 2pm, picking up a penalty job at 3:30pm on the 2 line, and finishing at Flatbush after midnight.
As bad as those OPTO jobs on the G line are, I can still walk to work, work 8 hours, and walk back home. It's really a killer having to go to the Bronx all the time. But I realize that those G OPTO jobs are considered the worst jobs in the B division right now. One day I was at Continental, talking to a buddy in the crew room. I was telling him and some of his buddies that I am interested in transfering to the B, even if it means OPTO on the G. They all laughed at once. One guy was on his way to do an OPTO job on the G and went nuts hearing this. He was trying to find a way to get off the G line. Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side. Perhaps I'll feel different when I actually have to do some of these jobs.
Randy Kennedys musings on THE GHOSTS OF TRANSIT PLANS PAST
Peace,
ANDEE
Something in that article took me by surprise. It said that the idea for the Second Avenue Subway was first conceieved in 1920, not in 1925 or so as I'd thought. It looks like we all missed the 80th-anniversary "celebration" :(
Oh, speaking of things in today's Times, we can add Lisa Nussbaum to the list of people who should be using rubber sheets.
If only the MTA had seen reason, they would have restored the Far Rockaway LIRR line, and Bombardier's junk would never have been needed.
Idiots.
"If only the MTA had seen reason, they would have restored the Far Rockaway LIRR line, and Bombardier's junk would never have been needed."
They still would have needed a connection from Howard Beach to the terminals, which is where the accident occurred. As has been discussed, heavy rail doesn't make that much sense when you have many closely spaced stops.
The point has been made in this thread that where a subway goes right into the airport (as at Atlanta, and also Chicago, I believe) it gets good ridership figures. That is certainly true at British airports too. If the subway (whether using the former LIRR ROW or not) went right into JFK, it would presumably terminate at a station somewhere in the middle of the terminal complex. The function of taking people from terminal to terminal, to and from long-term parking, car-rental locations, etc., would be performed by another system altogether -- an internal airport transit, free of charge, probably automatic in operation, with frequent stops. The much-vaunted "one-seat ride" is only to an airport subway station, not to every location on the airport. It would still have been a good thing to have. Whether it could have been achieved given the "turf wars" of the PA and the MTA in New York is another question. Despite the recent tragic setback, I still think the AirTrain will be a good second-best alternative, and I look forward to using it in 2003!
The point has been made in this thread that where a subway goes right into the airport (as at Atlanta, and also Chicago, I believe) it gets good ridership figures.
Actually, these figures are abysmal by NYCT standards - around 16,000 total passengers daily and a turnstile count of only 8,000.
"Actually, these figures are abysmal by NYCT standards - around 16,000 total passengers daily and a turnstile count of only 8,000."
...as usual, taken entirely out of context and used dishonestly.
The figures are very good for Atlanta standards (which is the appropriate measure), and the line has been very successful at easing congestion at the airport (meaning it helps manage growth - Atlanta is the country's busiest).
NYCT and LIRR should see higher numbers than that.
Atlanta is the busiest airport only in terms of airside movements. Most people go to Atlanta and head straight back out again. Landside access doesn't do diddly squat for those transfer paxs (whereas the interterminal people mover makes a lot of sense).
16,000 is pretty crappy. 16,000 daily riders is a number that can easily be handled by light rail. If you think they are good numbers, and successful numbers, then the decision to use heavy rail for MARTA was wrong.
AEM7
"16,000 is pretty crappy. 16,000 daily riders is a number that can easily be handled by light rail. If you think they are good numbers, and successful numbers, then the decision to use heavy rail for MARTA was wrong."
Pretty crappy for NEW YORK. Not crappy for Atlanta. And MARTA was not built exclusively for the Airport. The NorthSouth line is used for lots of other destinations beside the airport. MARTA decided to anchor the line at the Airport - a wise move.
True, although even with rush hour traffic to all other destinations, I suspect MARTA is more of a light rail than a heavy rail.
Atlana has only 2 and a half subway lines. Nicely designede, nicely built, with decent bus connections. I lived there for six months while at the CDC. Atlanta still is a car-dependent place, so getting 16,000 people to use the train to go to the airport is a major victory. The fact that the incoming trains are full show that the transfer to the circulator works well.
I only hope that the circulator at JFK will be able to handle crowds. While JFK is not as busy as Hartsfield, more people are coming from the outside to enter the airport, and many of them will be on transit - there is a much larger potential market for Airtrain than in Atlanta currently.
"MARTA decided to anchor the line at the Airport - a wise move"
If possible, it is always a good idea to have transit lines "anchored" at both ends with major destinations -- that way you get two-way traffic in both peaks. Despite Stephen's gloomy figures, the airport is the obvious out-of-town anchor for a transit line. In London, Heathrow is the second largest employment centre after the central area of London itself, and I suspect that is true in many metropolitan areas: if you get a good proportion of the airport employees using transit, the airline passengers are almost a bonus!
NYCT and LIRR should see higher numbers than that.
Not according to the PA's DEIS. Their figure for use (5,000) is considerably lower than the 16,000 that I estimated.
My estimate is based on the actual turnstile count for O'Hare which is around 8,000. N.B. the major determinant is how many people will be using the airport - NOT the surrounding population density. Also note that O'Hare services approximately 50% more passengers than JFK.
BTW, in the PA's DEIS, most of AirTrain's users will be arriving by car and using the long term parking lot. That may do something for congestion within the airport but will not help relieve congestion on the VanWyck or Belt.
"Their figure for use (5,000) is considerably lower than the 16,000 that I estimated."
The PA is estimating a far higher crowd than that. If that came off an EIS, you had better post it (and post its context). It sounds like you are taking credit for somenbody else' estimate.
If that came off an EIS, you had better post it (and post its context). It sounds like you are taking credit for somenbody else' estimate.
Let me quote from "The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey JFK International Airport Light Rail System", "Written Reevaluation/Technical Report on Changes to the Proposed JFK Airport Access Program", July 1996, Exhibit ES-2: Projected Average Daily LRS in 2003
Beginning of direct quote
Type of Trip
Ground access passenger trips, which are movements between JFK and other parts of New York Metropolitan area:
Jamaica Passengers: 4,417
Howard Beach Passengers 1,165
Total Passengers 5,582
Ground access employee trips, which are movements between JFK and other parts of the New York Metropolitan area:
Jamaica Employees 2,628
Howard Beach Employees 2,775
Total Employees 5,403
Passenger trips t/from long-term parking 1,214
Employee trips to/from long-term parking 15,181
Trips to/from the rental car pick up/drop off area 1,752
Trips between terminal buildings at JFK 4,748
TOTAL DAILY TRIPS 33,880
End of Direct Quote
In rough numbers their estimates for both the Jamaica and Howard Beach is 11,000 which is well below my turnstile estimate if 8,000. You will also note that the majority of users will be arriving by car, as I also stated.
If you have any questions about the relevance of the LIRR, they also estamate only 3,000 of the 11,000 daily trips will be via LIRR. Of the 3,000 LIRR transfers only 547 are from Nassau and 342 are from Suffolk. These figures are stated in an unnumbered table "Daily Ground Access to and from JFK Airport by LRS Station and Geographic Area" in the appendix.
I must admit, this is one case (rarew though they may be) where you have it right.
I apologize for the barb. Stop sneaking up on me like that :0)
"BTW, in the PA's DEIS, most of AirTrain's users will be arriving by car and using the long term parking lot. That may do something for congestion within the airport but will not help relieve congestion on the VanWyck or Belt."
OK for starters.
AirTrain will only be in service for a portion of 2003. I will be watching with interest to see how business picks up for it in 04.
There's no reason that, as the service proves itself, that usage won't pick up. And I personally airport trips by LIRR are very conservatively estimated (we'll see a lot more than predicted) - because unlike the subway, the LIRR's stations are, on the whole very baggage friendly (being ADA compliant). Subway trips will increase, too, especially as the subway's facilities improve.
Adds amenities like ticket kiosks and baggage check, and the numbers will continue to rise.
Another big factor, of course, has nothing to do with cars or AirTrain: the economy, the chance of war in the Middle East, and the state of travel as a function of the economy.
AirTrain will only be in service for a portion of 2003.
The DEIS contemplated that it would be in service for the entire year and the estimates are based on that assumption.
And I personally airport trips by LIRR are very conservatively estimated (we'll see a lot more than predicted) - because unlike the subway, the LIRR's stations are, on the whole very baggage friendly (being ADA compliant).
The problem with LIRR access from Nassau and Suffolk are the LIRR's schedule. It is a one-way service for residents. The LIRR's schedule is completely useless for out of town passengers whose destination might be on the Island. The other problem is train frequency. Nobody will rely on a system that will cause a 1 hour wait for a off peak train because a plane was 5 minutes late.
Adds amenities like ticket kiosks and baggage check, and the numbers will continue to rise.
I think that 9/11 has killed the idea of offsite baggage checkin. I've wondered why onsite airline terminals are necessary. Freddie Laker's checkin counter was in Rego Park; TCAT is a great convenience and I found the duty free shops there to be better than those at Narita.
Another big factor, of course, has nothing to do with cars or AirTrain: the economy, the chance of war in the Middle East, and the state of travel as a function of the economy.
The PA's figures were based on an average passenger growth rate of 2.5% from the early 1990's. I don't think they have quite made that.
The sad fact is that arriving/departing passengers and the personnel that service are not by themselves a sufficient market to cover operating costs (forget about the $1.9 billion capital costs). One hope would be to provide additional facilities within the airport to attract city residents. Europe's busiest airport, Frankfurt, has done this. However, I don't know if government authorities would be willing to open a branch of Doktor Mueller's Sex Emporium over here.
These data of Stephen's seem to be casting doubt on the economic viability of running rail transit to airports at all; the AirTrain technology isn't more expensive than conventional heavy rail subway, is it?
Yet in many countries around the world, rail transit (whether surface trains, subway, or light rail) has been extended into airports, and it seems to carry heavy loadings, and doesn't seem to have disappointed its operators in terms of the financial results. It obviously helps if a rail line is already near by, so that only a short stretch of new line has to be built: but then, Howard Beach is right on the JFK perimeter. The optimum was probably London Gatwick, where the airport terminal was built right alongside a pre-existing main line, so a new station had to be built but no new ROW was needed.
These data of Stephen's seem to be casting doubt on the economic viability of running rail transit to airports at all; the AirTrain technology isn't more expensive than conventional heavy rail subway, is it?
Yet in many countries around the world, rail transit (whether surface trains, subway, or light rail) has been extended into airports, and it seems to carry heavy loadings, and doesn't seem to have disappointed its operators in terms of the financial results. It obviously helps if a rail line is already near by, so that only a short stretch of new line has to be built: but then, Howard Beach is right on the JFK perimeter. The optimum was probably London Gatwick, where the airport terminal was built right alongside a pre-existing main line, so a new station had to be built but no new ROW was needed.
"These data of Stephen's seem to be casting doubt on the economic viability of running rail transit to airports at all;"
No, they don't. The viability of the service will be a combination of employee, passenger and non-passenger business trips (with a tiny sprinkling of railfans). It will be as viable as any other part of the transit system.
"The AirTrain technology isn't more expensive than conventional heavy rail subway, is it?"
$1.9 billion for over 8 miles of track - about $250 million per mile. You'll see somemore millions spent after the recent test run derailment.
$1.9 billion for over 8 miles of track - about $250 million per mile. You'll see somemore millions spent after the recent test run derailment.
Assume that debt service is around 10% per annum and we have 34,000 daily passengers. That comes out to $15.31 per trip.
"Assume that debt service is around 10% per annum and we have 34,000 daily passengers. That comes out to $15.31 per trip."
The PA pays about 4.5% on its debt, and they're probably depreciating over 50 years. So closer to 6% per annum.
`And what if there are 50,000 trips in 2005?
And what if there are 50,000 trips in 2005?
That's a compound growth rate of 21%. I'd say turning the airport into an office park with a branch of Doktor Mueller's is more likely. :-)
You can poke fun at it, if you like.
The growth of ridership will be influenced by:
a large potential usage
recovery of the economy (granted, that's not guaranteed).
The largest growth of ridership can reasonably be expected in the first few years - so 21% gain is very realistic. Tewn years intobthe service, a 21% year-over-year gain is not realistic.
Might I presume from your repeated attempts to increase the estimated use of AirTrain that you are also appalled at the surprisingly low projected use by outside passengers using mass transit (7,000)? Might I also presume that you would not find any comfort in increased use should it come from people finding the long-term parking facilities more convenient and electing to use them instead of taxis, airport limousines, etc?
If people find AirTrain useful from Long-Term Parking, that's fine with me.
But I believe its true value will be to make transit to the airport more attractive. And the more people who use it that way, the more open slots there are in Long Term Parking.
I don't have to take comfort in anything. I believe in the concept, but AirTrain will have to prove itself.
If nobody rides it, it will be disappointing. Since the other formulas for bringing riders to the airport would not work any better (and indeed at least one is unavailable period), it would be a sign of ineffectiveness of transit per se to JFK.
But that's unlikely.
The PA pays about 4.5% on its debt, and they're probably depreciating over 50 years.
That's for debt backed by bridge tolls. They may have to pay more for AirTrain - they can't back it up by the fares.
Another big factor, of course, has nothing to do with cars or AirTrain: the economy, the chance of war in the Middle East, and the state of travel as a function of the economy.
The PA's figures were based on an average passenger growth rate of 2.5% from the early 1990's. I don't think they have quite made that.
To put it mildly! In fairness to the Port Authority, they scarcely could have been expected to foresee all that happened. If AirTrain ends up as a white-elephant train to nowhere - or, more precisely, a train to an empty airport - it won't be the PA's fault.
Bad timing also comes into play. Had AirTrain been in the planning stage on 9/11, or maybe in the early construction stages, the PA might have been able to cancel it without too much of a financial hit. Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist. It's similar to what happened with two new terminals at JFK. Delta's new terminal was still in the planning stage, and was cancelled soon after 9/11. Construction was well underway on American's new $1 billion terminal, however, and the airline has had to continue with the work even though the terminal likely will be redundant once opened.
"Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist."
"No longer exist" would be a pretty strong overstatement. It's not as though Kennedy Airport is about to be shut down for lack of traffic. The traffic load may be 10%, 20%, or even 30% below projections, but there's still plenty of people taking planes at Kennedy. And the next time traffic grows again, Kennedy will have a new, small competitive edge over LGA, namely it'll be easier to get to without a car.
Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist.
"No longer exist" would be a pretty strong overstatement. It's not as though Kennedy Airport is about to be shut down for lack of traffic. The traffic load may be 10%, 20%, or even 30% below projections, but there's still plenty of people taking planes at Kennedy. And the next time traffic grows again, Kennedy will have a new, small competitive edge over LGA, namely it'll be easier to get to without a car.
Airport and airline traffic has long been cyclical. Even so, there's strong reason to believe that the current slump, especially at JFK and other New York-area airports, represents a long-term structural change rather than a response to short-term economic conditions. While no one knows the precise numbers or percentages, it has become obvious that a significant portion of the people who used to travel by air have sworn off flying forever. It should go without saying that this portion is higher in New York than elsewhere. Given the economics of the airline industry, even a 10% drop will have serious consequences, and 10% is probably a low estimate, especially for New York. So yes, it looks as if AirTrain will never serve the passenger volumes for which it was designed. Whether that will be enough to make the system a white elephant is yet to be seen, but the possibility cannot be ignored.
A 10% drop in traffic is likely to be a 10% drop in AirTrain use. Unfortunate for the train, but not a tragedy.
If the AirTrain was a great idea for the projected use, it's not a disastrous idea for 10% less use. If it's a terrible idea for the probable reduced use, it wasn't a wonderful idea for 11% more use.
There's another factor at play here.
If the PA wants to ease congestion at the airport, which is, combined with distance, a problem for people consider it can jack up prices for parking and then reduce AirTrain fares, or offer special discounts specifically for LIRR usage.
Since the agency controls LGA as well, it's not a big deal to play with access pricing there to make JFK more attractive.
And then of course, there are other things: for example a hotel/conference center in Jamaica, accessible through AirTrain, which would attract a specific kind of business to JFK, all the more useful even for people with longer layovers.
For people who disdain or misunderstand the neighborhood (like Peter Rosa, for example :0)), the situation of the hotel close to the AirTrain terminal makes it a self-contained kind of experience.
This would be similar to Atlantic City. The hotels are on a gaudy strip; off the strip are slums (much worse off than Jamaica ever was), but the revelers are really not very aware of their surrounding neighborhood.
"Given the economics of the airline industry, even a 10% drop will have serious consequences, and 10% is probably a low estimate, especially for New York."
Will that, by itself, relieve traffic jams on the Van Wyxck, or airport parking problems? What about the compounding effect that has on security-related delays? Will that address the need for transit for people who still fly?
Has La Guardia become a much better place to fly from because of the drop in traffic?
" So yes, it looks as if AirTrain will never serve the passenger volumes for which it was designed. "
False, unless the volume of traffic at the airport is so low that there are few or no delays or inconveniences involved in using your car.
Air travel was down well before 9/11. It was the airlines' propensity to send out planes with 30% occupancy factors that made 9/11 possible. I don't blame the PA for failing to see that a single spectacular event would expose the weakness of their growth assumptions. I do find fault with the precision of their use estimates. They really had no idea of what demand would be. However, they would not let a simple matter like that stand in the way of administering $1.9 billion of somebody else's money.
It was the airlines' propensity to send out planes with 30% occupancy factors that made 9/11 possible.
That's a rather unwarranted assumption. Before 9/11, passengers were unlikely to resist hijacking attempts because the events were not considered to be life-threatening - at the very worst, the passengers would be held onboard for a few days as ransoms were negotiated. It really didn't matter how crowded a particular flight might be.
It really didn't matter how crowded a particular flight might be.
One would have thought that the hijackers would have had to scale the size of their operation proportionaly to the plane's occupancy. Had the planes been operating at 60% I would have expected them to have a staff of 9 on board each plane instead of 5. There may have been more problems in getting aisle seats and a greater possibility of detection beforehand. Remember the hijackers supposedly sought out flights with low occupancy rates in preference to more popular flights later in the day which would have resulted in far more loss of life.
"Bad timing also comes into play. Had AirTrain been in the planning stage on 9/11, or maybe in the early construction stages, the PA might have been able to cancel it without too much of a financial hit. Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist."
Nonsensical, illogical. The need for AirTrain will disappear when the need for JFK disappears. When the PA decides that LaGuardia Airport and Newark Airport can handle all incoming and outgoing NY flights, then AirTrain can and should be cancelled.
Of course, then JFK will be turned into an office park, so you'll need new subway service anyway.
New York City is the world's most important metropolis. JFK is its no. 1 airport. Most other major metropolises have rail access to their major airports already (Chicago, London, Amsterdam, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, ...), and so do many lesser places. Over thirty years ago JFK's road traffic was already gridlocked. It has a subway station on its perimeter fence. It has another major transit interchange station three miles away.
Are people here really saying that, because of the downturn in air traffic over the last year, which is probably only a temporary downturn, JFK now doesn't need rail transit access? Oh, puh..lease!
Or could it be that a strong dislike for Bombardier and an ingrained belief that any kind of rail transit that isn't a proper NY subway line is an inferior substitute have combined to cloud people's judgement? We're all here because we are enthusiasts for rail rapid transit, remember?
Bad timing also comes into play. Had AirTrain been in the planning stage on 9/11, or maybe in the early construction stages, the PA might have been able to cancel it without too much of a financial hit. Unfortunately, the project had passed the point of no return, so to speak, and the PA now has to see it through to completion even though the need for it may no longer exist.
Nonsensical, illogical. The need for AirTrain will disappear when the need for JFK disappears.
JFK functioned for over 40 years with no AirTrain. For much of that time, the airport was busier than it's likely to be in the foreseeable future.
"JFK functioned for over 40 years with no AirTrain."
Not well. In fact the lack of efficient access to the airport was one of the biggest reasons JFK could not reach its full potential in terms of air traffic generation. JFK could have taken a lot more business away from La Guardia otherwise.
"For much of that time, the airport was busier than it's likely to be in the foreseeable future."
Also not true. JFK is the number one international airport in the Northeast, and its traffic levels depend heavily international traffic. When that rebounds, JFK's business will rise. And refer back to the above comment.
JFK is the number one international airport in the Northeast, and its traffic levels depend heavily international traffic. When that rebounds, JFK's business will rise.
See my response to AIM elsewhere in this thread. This decline may be long-term and structural, not just a passing phenomenon. That doesn't bode well for AirTrain's usefulness.
I saw your response. Not entirely relevant to what AirTrain actually does, and your predictions of little or no future growth are not sound.
Yes, people are flying less. But in New York, the effect is disproportional in terms of trips along the Northeast Corridor. Other trips not convenient by Amtrak or Greyhound will rebound with the economy, though the pricing will not be the same. It's not that JFK will have a permanent loss of passengers; it's that those passengers will be served by low-cost carriers charging lower fares. This does not make AirTrain any less valuable, especially in improving JFK at an airport compared to other regional airports.
"The problem with LIRR access from Nassau and Suffolk are the LIRR's schedule. It is a one-way service for residents. The LIRR's schedule is completely useless for out of town passengers whose destination might be on the Island. The other problem is train frequency. Nobody will rely on a system that will cause a 1 hour wait for a off peak train because a plane was 5 minutes late."
That is true for some lines but not true for others. Off-peak frequencies for many trains is 30 minutes. It will be up to MTA to decide if airport service warrants changes to its schedule. You have a point there.
Note that frequency of trains in the city direction sufficiently high, so it almost doesn't matter which train you catch. \
"I think that 9/11 has killed the idea of offsite baggage checkin"
Nonsense. As long as bags are X-rayed or otherwise examined (by bomb-sniffing dogs or machines) prior to being loaded on the airplane, it makes absolutely zero difference where the initial checkin occurs. The airlines understand that.
""
"Whether it could have been achieved given the "turf wars" of the PA and the MTA in New York is another question. Despite the recent tragic setback, I still think the AirTrain will be a good second-best alternative, and I look forward to using it in 2003!"
There's no difference between AirTrain and the others. In fact, AirTrain will be faster because you have to transfer to the circulator anyway, and AirTrain will run non-stop 60 mph from Jamaica to the terminal area.
You have to remember that the MTA didn't exist in the 1950's when the City purchased the LIRR Rockaway line from a bankrupt LIRR. Of course, the City was short-sighted and did not think there was a need for a rail-link to what was then called Idlewild Airport. It's very likely that homes and backyards spread into parts of the abandoned ROW during the 50's and much of the 60's, before the MTA was established. It's not the MTA's fault. Blame the short-sightedness of the City and NY State governments and the Port Authority for not realizing the value of a rail connection to the airport early on.
And even if they did have the foresight to retain the whole Rockaway line, who's to say that "Bombardier's junk" wouldn't be running on those rails one day?
"If only the MTA had seen reason, they would have restored the Far Rockaway LIRR line, and Bombardier's junk would never have been needed.
Idiots. "
Did you read any of the threads about the Rockaway Line? Do you know how viable (or non-viable) the Rockaway Line actually is? Do you know if the Rockaway Line can be used at all without additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan (it cannot, but East Side Access is slowly remedying that)?
Have you visited the Rockaway ROW, or know anything about the condition of the ROW? Do you knowhow much it would cost to revive it? Do you know which politicians you can count on to support it? Would the Governor sign off on that project?
Is there room in the Capital Plan for it?
Did you attend hearings about AirTrain where there was some discussion about the Rockaway Line?
Do you think it's a good idea to call somebody an idiot when you haven't demonstrated you know anything about your subject?
I heard that the TA just out the order to 2000 cars. This will replase all cars up to the R44's. Some R44's or even some M1's will be rebelt to by used on SIRR. These are only a thing that I heard from some other TA employes.
I am not saying this is the facts so don't jump down my back saying that it is. IT IS JUST WHAT I HEARD. If anyone else heard this to back me up then please post..
Robert
I ment to say up the order to 2000 cars not out the other
Robert
M1's for SIR has been a rumor since I was in Tottenville HS (on staten island). Never happen IMHO.
and it never will. the M-1 and M-3 cars will be phased out starting late 2003 early 2004
not M3s... also not all M1s will go
Sounds like crewroom scuttlebut, most of which turns out to be completely baseless.
David
Most likey.
Robert
What is a "chate?"
Talk, sorry i am a bad speller. I should you a spellchecker before posting.
Robert
I've read posts on this board from people in lots of different places. I'm curious to find out how many different places subtalkers come from, what systems they ride, and how well various transit systems are represented. I know New York is probably home to more subtalkers than any other place, and MTA is the best represented transit system here, but I'm curious about all the other systems regularly ridden by the people here.
Myself, I'm from Philadelphia and I ride SEPTA trolleys and the Market-Frankford line every day.
Mark
Depends on how you define home, I guess. First and foremost I consider North Carolina to be my home, as I've lived there for over twenty years, most of that just outside a little town called Bunn (35 miles east-northeast of Raleigh, 25 miles west of Rocky Mount). On the other hand, I also live in Eatontown, New Jersey part of the time... right near Little Silver on the North Jersey Coast Line. But I grew up in the shadow of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge, near the New York Central station, I spent my summers in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania (third house up from the Lackawanna yard), and I've also lived in a number of other places, including two major transit-friendly cities where I rode rail transit - the Barcelona Metro and the 'L' in Chicago - on a daily basis.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Home is Roslyn Heights, Long Island -- Albertson station to be exact.
But I live in suburban Boston, and ride the MBTA Commuter Rail (Lowell and Attleboro lines for the most part), and all of the rapid transit lines.
No mystery where I call home. I'm a Californian. I live in a very nice town called Arcadia. It has nice parks, great schools, an Arboretum, and a great shopping mall. I wouldn't live anywhere else.
Except where the Sea Beach line runs, where the Mets play baseball, where the Cyclone runs,and where egg creams are served. Does any of tha exist in Arcadia? I don't think so. ;)
You've got be by the palotas there my friend. I can get egg creams in South Pasadena at a place called the "The Fair Oaks Pharmacy." Of course, it is run by Steve Miller, a refugee from Brooklyn and a die hard Yankee fan. As for the others, no Cyclone. We have a lot of roller coasters at Disneyland, Magic Mountain, and Knotts Berry Farm, but as far as I'm concerned there is no other ride in the world like the Cyclone. No Sea Beach either and we are stuck with the Dodgers who I despise. Ironic since I was once a fanatical Dodger fan when they played somewhere else.
"get egg creams in South Pasadena at a place called the "The Fair Oaks Pharmacy." Of course, it is run by Steve Miller, a refugee from Brooklyn and a die hard Yankee fan.".?
does it taste like ice cream ??""egg creams"" is it like st louis
mo. "frozen custard" ..??.............................!
also how it the construction of the PASADENA CA. GOLD LINE ....
coming along these dayz ??
any progress 2 report ?
The Gold Line is on schedule the last time I checked. An egg cream has no eggs. It is made with chocolate syrup, milk and seltzer water. It is yummy and Miller knows how to make them since he is a native Brooklynite.
Then it MUST use U-Bet chocolate syrup!
Of course, you could always lace an egg cream with Ex-lax if you ever wanted to get back at someone.:)
I live in New Jesery and work with the NYC MTA as you can see as a T/O.
Robert
I live in the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
Until 2001, I rode the IND-occupied Brighton BMT.
Well, I currently live in the University of Rochester in Rochester NY, but I really live in downtown Manhattan, Brooklyn Bridge Station.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
DaWheel, what is your major and was term are you in? Keep up your studies and make sure you get that degree.
I'm majoring in neuroscience and possibly minoring in computer science.
-Dan
Good luck in your studies. Sounds like you picked one rigorous course of study.
Been to Nick Tahou's yet? The Garbage Plate theree has the soul of a New Yorker....
I live in Oakland Gardens, Queens. I usually use the (F) at Jamaica-179th Street. I sometimes catch the same at Briarwood-Van Wyck. Or for a change of pace I will go to Flushing-Main St or Willets Point-Shea Stadium for the (7).
I was born in Auburndale, Queens. However I grew up in suburban Levittown, New York. My home LIRR station was Hicksville, which could be accessed via the N49 or N50 bus at Newbridge Road and Flamingo Road/Levittown Parkway.
:-) Andrew
Home is Centennial, Colorado, newly incorporated city on the south side in Metro Denver. I'm five miles from either the Littleton-Mineral or Littleton-Downtown light rail stops, but usually drive up to Englewood to avoid paying express fare when I do take light rail.
Centennial has been home for the past 22 years. I'm a South Bend native, Notre Dame subway alumnus, who lived in Jersey for six years and in Connecticut for seven.
Baltimore. Home to America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum.
Come on Dan, you can ever do better than that. Your town is the home of the greatest baseball player ever, the immortal Babe.
Did you realize it was 75 years ago on September 30 that the Babe hit his 60th home run of the season?
What's going on people, this is Light Rail Chic shoutin' out of Philly and I frequently use the subway-surface trolleys (Rt13 & 34) everyday to/from Center City.
LightRailChic :-)
i am from union nj
Whoa.
Nice to know we have a 'CHIC'.
I'm a native New Yorker living in Manhattan with dreams about being somewhere else...NYCTA is now my home. CI Peter
I live in the best place to be a subway fan. Bedford Park, u got the Concourse, Jerome Yards within a short walk, the 4 and D express lines is an added bonus. So for other railfans like me who live in the area know the value.
I live in Bedford Park also. You forgot Metro Norths Botanical Garden stop.
Peace,
ANDEE
I call Manhattan home, although I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I am a frequent traveler of MTA NYC Transit Subways, MTA Metro-North Railroad's Hudson Division, NJ Transit's Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast, and Atlantic City Lines, and MTA Long Island Railroad's Long Beach Line and just recent, the Babylon Line to Freeport. I should also include SEPTA R7 Trenton Line, which I use to reach Philadelphia for my treks to Atlantic City. I use PATH once in a while and every 3 months, I use Amtrak's Empire Service to Albany.
Avondale (Phoenix) Arizona
I was born in Elmhurst Hospital in Queens and I lived in Flushing untill I was 5. Then i moved to Bay Shore , Long Island which now i call home. The nearest 2 LIRR Stations to me are Bay Shore and Deer Park Stations.
Voorheesville, NY (CP-VO) ... the local subway is Amtrak. :)
I'm from N. Providence, R.I. and usually ride the MBTA in Boston going to games or shows.
I live in Ottawa, Canada's gorgeous National Capital. Our transit system is OC Transpo, which is mostly a bus transit system. However, we do have the O-Train, which is a short light rail line run with Bombardier Talent series vehicles. Supplemented by that is an extensive busway system (called the Transitway) which spans the city. At rush hour, no matter where you live in Ottawa, you have a one seat bus ride to the downtown core via this busway and the local freeways.
Garden City South, LI - but originally from Ridgewood, Queens
Ex new yorker. Live in Wilmington,DE Ride occasionally SEPTA regional rail and DART buses.
Wow, it's been a while since I've posted here.
I'm from Philadelphia and ride the MFL, BSS and Route 10 trolley every day for work.
Born and raised in NYC. Lived in The Bronx for the first 30 years of my life. 5 years ago I relocated to the Wash, DC area. I now live in Silver Spring, MD on Da Red Line.
Wayne
Brooklyn, NY.
Originally from Yonkers, NY. Also lived in the Bronx, and New Brunswick, NJ, and Upstate NY (college). And Tulsa, OK (that was one hell of a recession in the 1970s).
I'm from South Jersey (Camden County). I played around and on the PRR tracks in Westmont that connected Philly via the Delair Bridge with the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines in Haddonfield (now NJT Atlantic City line, single track). Traffic there was exclusively PRSL passenger trains, with PRR and Reading steam engines until Baldwin diesels started mixing in, then we moved.
For 15 years I commuted on PATCO, Market St subway/elevated, P&W interurban to Radnor until my job moved.
Now live in Lindenwold and drive to work, but take PATCO/BSS to a Phillies game every year and railfan SEPTA from time to time.
I live in Suffolk County, NY. My daily routine involves the LIRR from Medford station and then the IRT from Penn Station to Houston Street.
I live in Marietta, GA. Born in Manhasset, NY and lived in Middle Village, Queens for five years.
Any General Sherman fans down there by some chance?
Up until about a month ago, I lived in Chicago. When I first began posting on SubTalk, I lived near the Fullerton stop on the CTA Red Line, so that's naturally the line I took most often. But then, I'm very familiar with pretty much the entire CTA system. (I also rode the Metra / UP North Line everyday for a year when I was still living in the suburban wastelands of Lake County.)
In the early summer of 2000, I moved to Boston. I lived in Brookline and worked in Cambridge, so my commute usually involved the "C" branch of the Green Line and the Red Line, although sometimes I'd take the "B" or "D" Green Line branches. I was fortunate to live in an area where all three were an option for me, because being tied to one branch would have really sucked.
Three months later, I moved back to Chicago and ended up living near the Berwyn stop on the Red Line. But I soon got myself a car and got a job out in the suburbs, so my usage of transit took a nosedive.
About a month ago I moved to Collingswood, New Jersey, a few miles outside Philadelphia. I live about a 20-minute walk away from the Collingswood PATCO station, although I typically drive most places I need to go. The only times I've really used PATCO in the past month is if I need to get to the airport (I'll take it to 8th/Market and transfer to the SEPTA R1 train at Market East).
Now that I live in South Jersey, I'm lucky enough to be able to visit New York City fairly regularly. I typically drive to Hamilton, NJ and take the NJT Northeast Corridor line, although I've also been known to drive all the way into the city. When I'm in NYC, the West Side IRT seems to be the line I use most often. I guess you could say 34th Street / Penn Station is my "home" station in NYC.
I also spent a week in London last year, where Victoria was my "home" station.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Round, round, get around, you get around. Do you also take your car because it's never been beat?
Ossining NY reporting.
Also a resident of West 225th on 9.
I currently live on Long Island. I take the LIRR to Penn Station and then take the E train to Lex. and 53rd Street.
I previously lived in The Bronx (1951-1956) rode the 4 train with my parents on a frequent basis. Also rode the D train from time to time. Moved to Canarsie (1956 to 1959) and rode the L train. Moved to Far Rockaway (1959-1979) and rode the E train in rush hours (HH other times) and eventually the A train with the famous R-10's.
But you never rode the Sea Beach, the origional #4 train. That means you really didn't ride the real thing. If you don't ride the Sea Beach you just don't know what riding a real subway train is like. Too bad.
Currently I reside in the Flatlands section of Crooklyn, U.S.A.
Whether I like it or not (hear this SubBus!) I am trapped into riding the A Division (IRT) to commute to/from work every single day!
I was born a Brighton Line buff, but have gotten to appreciate the rest of the system over the years.
Tell you what Doug, I'll make you an honorary member of the Sea Beach fan club. How's that sound?
Thanks for theo offer....I'll consider it....
Thanks for theo offer....give me some time to consider it...
No WONDER Douggie is all so peppy and wide-eyed
when we get him near IND equipment....
(i.e. August' trip to Beaches of Rock & Long)
Queens.
Are you still a Mets fan? I was born in Queens, too. Long Island City to be exact. That must make you a classy guy.
Yeah, I grew up going to Shea Stadium. I still live nearby. Just took my long bike ride around Flushing Meadows Park. I start at the entrance at Grand Central and LIE, go north under the overpass, up the long road past the towers, then pass the tennis stadium, LIRR, go around Shea Stadium, come back south, pass tennis stadium, over the World's Fair overpass which overlooks Corona Yard(gotta check if any new cars have arrived, or if I see anyone I know), back down through the park and once around the lake in the south side where the Aquacade Stadium and AMF Monorail once stood.
Where in Long Island City did you live? I love Long Island City. Especially the area near Vernon-Jackson. It was always fun to check out the LIRR Long Island Railroad Station, and nearby abandoned tracks.
I lived in Queensbridge for over ten years. Went to PS1. I knew a lot of guys around Vernon-Jackson that I went to school with. Tom Iapoce, John DiCicco, Tom Lotito, all dagos like me. There was also Terrence Donnelly, an Irish guy and a load of laughs. QB is now the pits and PS1 doesn't exist anymore, and the area is no longer mainly Italian but it is still fun to visit the area, as I will when I come to New York next week.
My grandfather went to PS 1 (probably around WWI)
Hey, I love the Mets, but it's tough being a Mets fan now and even tought admitting it.
I still wear my Mets jacket when I'm in the city. Makes me look like a local resident.
As for being a Mets fan, we have to stick it out. Maybe next year a fresh start and the key players playing like they are capable of---Vaughn, Burnitz, Alomar, Cedeno. We must resign Alfonso, too. As far as PS1 is concerned, I loved it there. Made many friends and had a great experience. We moved to Astoria and I had to go to PS10 before we moved to California. I hated it there. There was also this one bully who liked to give me a bad time. I even tried to look him up on the my first two visits back but no luck. I really hope to run into him some day and for his sake he should hope I don't.
P.S. 1 does exist. And it's a popular location for art galleries and other Manhattany things to do. In the early 90's, there was a movement to make the area around P.S. 1 a neighborhood for transplanted Manhattanites. They mostly occupied the few existing brown stone buildings. But the movement didn't last long. Some idiots built high-rise apartment buildings nearby, hoping to lure Manhattanites away from the city. But there's nothing desirable about that neighborhood except it's proximity to the City.
Did you hear the Mets fired Bobby Valentine? The way they underachieved this season, they had to do something.
How about getting rid of Mo Vaughn? Either that or have the guy lose 40 pounds and get into shape. I used to like that guy, too.
I heard rumors that Lou Pinella could be courted to manage there if they get permission from the Mariners to talk to him. He's in the last year of his contract in Seattle.
Too bad Gil Hodges can't be resurrected. He wouldn't put up with any gaffe from anyone.
Yeah, none of the old time managers would put up with the whiny players of today. Being only 31, I missed out on seeing some of the greatest players.
The main reason Durocher left the Astros after the 1973 season was because he felt he could no longer relate to the modern ballplayer. In his words, "Whatever happened to 'sit down, shut up and listen'?"
He had Cesar Cedeno at Houston, who in Leo's judgment had more natural talent than anybody else in the game at the time, and it killed him to see Cedeno not giving his all.
I'm almost tempted to use the same line Leo Durocher used when he took over the Giants:
Back up the truck.
Manhattan. Roughly speaking, I live above the 86th Street station on the 1/9.
Too bad Dave. We can't all live near the Sea Beach, now can we?
Stroudsburg PA and Midtown Manhattan around E 28 St.
I'm an ex-New Yorker (Manhattan) living for 30 years in Los Angeles.
Canberra, Australia, where the only rail service is the Countrylink service to Sydney, using ASEA DMUs. There is an indifferent internal bus service that no one uses, with Mack/Renault and Dennis Dart equipment.
I was born and grew up in Melbourne, where I used to catch the No 88 Preston - City tram (normally a W7 class) or the Victorian Railways "Red Rattler" swing door DMUs.
Is it true that Australian girls really dig American men? That's what everyone tells me. Not that this soon to be 62 year old man is interested because I have my girl for life, but I've always wantedto hear from an Aussie if that is true.
Fred
Can't say, because I'm not an Aussie girl. I could poll the girls in the office here, but they might take offence, one never knows!!
Fred
Can't say, because I'm not an Aussie girl. I could poll the girls in the office here, but they might take offence, one never knows!!
The Capital District[Albany,Ny],Home of the great,spankin'brand new Amtrak station!!![lol]and CDTA!
Oh dear ... that station's a prohibited thought y'all. :)
LOL!!!! Awhh .... come on 'kirk! It ain't that bad[ha]!!!!
It's VERY pretty ... though you've GOT to admit ... when it opened, one of the ticket agents had to go over to Wal*Mart and buy a FREAKING CLOCK to put up on the balcony because the $38 million train station didn't have a SINGLE CLOCK!
Now ya gotta admit, that's RICH ...
And he had to PAY for it out of his OWN POCKET! (and he was NOT reimbursed)
ain't that a kick in the pants? hey whay going on with the trip to braddford this month?
I still can't get over that. $38 million and some poor TICKET AGENT had to provide the official clock for the station out of his own pocket. Wonder if the politicos ripped it off yet? Heh.
Not this COMING weekend, but NEXT weekend is the transit bash up at Branford ... I'd LOVE to have you along - we'll be up that way already on Saturday since there's relatives of Nancy's up that way. But if you want to get ahold of the folks sponsiring the event (I'm just a pissant member of the museum, it's a GREAT place and QUITE worth joining yourself), click below for the details of how to get hooked up:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
Scroll on down to October 13th, 2002 and the contact info is there. You'll need to bring wallet, but PROMISE it'll be WELL worth it ... and we're hoping to see even more folks here. If you want the opportunity to harass Selkirk, here's your chance. :)
okay....I gotcha, Word. I'll give you a holla, so I can corral the troops,make plans,and so on... lookin forward...
Moo! Show ya how to run a railroad. :)
IT'S ALL GOOD!
Currently a resident of Israel (not far from Tel Aviv); originally from Brooklyn, where I took the Q each day to work. I can't ride a rail system now, since they're rebuilding the line from my town to Tel Aviv; once they finish, I'll have the honor of riding on the Israel Railway Authority's Jerulsalem/Tel Aviv line.
subfan
I've always lived in England though I am a frequent visitor to the USA.
Most of my life I've lived in places on the old Midland Railway main line out of London St Pancras station. Born in Radlett, lived 25 years in Beeston (near Nottingham), then in Loughborough, where I still work, and now in Bedford -- all four of which still have living stations, the Beeston one an original 1847 structure. But much of my childhood was spent in Brighton (the one in England not the one in Brooklyn), and I often used the Brighton-London main line in order to spend a day railfanning in LOndon.
My regular commute now is 60 miles northwards from Bedford to Loughborough on a Midland Mainline DMU, which does the trip in about an hour.
I represent the M-A-R-T-to-the-A in Atlanta and the São Paulo Metrô in SP. I'm both 100% ATLien and 100% Paulistano.
South Greenfield New York, near what used to be the Elm Avenue stop on the Brighton line.
There was a South Greenfield Station on the Manhattan Beach Line:
South Greenfield - Opened July, 1877 - between Chestnut Ave. and Ave. M. Closed 1879, reopened 1889. In 1909, a new station was built which shared the embankment with the Brighton line. Lasted until 1924.
Here's a site that has some pictues of the South Greenfield station, it shows the embankment being built in 1908:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/mbbr4.html
I was always fascinated by the "ruins" at Neck Road and E 16th St, and anways tried to imagine what it looked like when it was in use. Now I wonder no more ...
--Mark
Lower East Side
Formerly I used the IND Station at East Broadway on the D (later on the F) to get to Brooklyn Tech HS (via A and GG).
(A few places later)
Kings Highway, Brooklyn
Brighton Line
Elmhurst Queens
Fort Totten (US Army housing) Bayside Queens
Both Flushing Line
(A few places later)
Stafford Virginia
VanPool into Washington DC
But you didn't ride the Sea Beach either. Don't you realize what you missed?
At least I rode NX back in 1967-1968 as a "joy ride"
Now THAT was a Sea Beach Super Express!
Well that is better than nothing. Next time you get to the Big City, you have to ride Fred's train, if for no other reason than to pacify SBF.
Elmhurst, queens for the past 23 years...before that was Jackson Heights.
Arlington, VA, two blocks from the WMATA Orange Line, even though I rarely use it since where I work isn't too public transportation friendly. Grew up in Hyattsville, MD were the closest station before the Green Line opened up out there was Fort Totten on the Red Line. Takoma and Silver Spring were nearby, but the parking was easier at Fort Totten.
I currently live in a very small town called Lonaconing, Maryland. It lies in EXTREME western Maryland. Pittsburgh is about 90 mins to my NW, Morgantown, WV is about 60 miles west....Baltimore & DC are about 2 1/2 hours to my east. I grew up in a town called Columbia, Maryland which sits midway between Baltimore & DC. My first love is to the DC Metro. I've collected every newspaper clipping, map, etc that I could get my hands on. I've also collected the same for Baltimore, including a book that was issued by the state in the late 60's highlighting the subway that would never be for the city. To look at it now, you see shades of the light-rail, along with the Metro that currently operates.
I'd love to hear more about the ill-fated Baltimore subway plan. how many lines did it have? Where did they run, other than the corridors now served by Baltimore's current system?
Mark
There were originally supposed to be 3 FULL lines (six segments all radiating out from a central station.....Charles Center) If you look at the Charles Center station of today, the middle level where it gets real wide near its eastern end was where the Northern & Southern Lines would've entered. The lines would be as follows:
Northwest---Charles Center to Owings Mills (currently operating)
Northeast---Charles Ctr to Joppa/Belair (the segment to Hopkins was to be part of this line)
South---Charles Center to Glen Burnie w/ a branch to BWI----The light rail from Westport south follows pretty much the planned routing for the South Line.
North---Charles Center to Timonium (this line would NOT have followed the current light rail. It would've gone up St. Paul St & York Roads
Southeast--Charles Center to Marlyn Avenue & Sparrows Point (This line would've split east of Patterson Park w/ a branch serving Essex and a branch serving Dundalk and eventually Sparrows Point.
There were originally supposed to be 3 FULL lines (six segments all radiating out from a central station.....Charles Center) If you look at the Charles Center station of today, the middle level where it gets real wide near its eastern end was where the Northern & Southern Lines would've entered. The lines would be as follows:
Northwest---Charles Center to Owings Mills (currently operating)
Northeast---Charles Ctr to Joppa/Belair (the segment to Hopkins was to be part of this line)
South---Charles Center to Glen Burnie w/ a branch to BWI----The light rail from Westport south follows pretty much the planned routing for the South Line.
North---Charles Center to Timonium (this line would NOT have followed the current light rail. It would've gone up St. Paul St & York Roads
Southeast--Charles Center to Marlyn Avenue & Sparrows Point (This line would've split east of Patterson Park w/ a branch serving Essex and a branch serving Dundalk and eventually Sparrows Point.
Ooops, forgot one...
West---Charles Center to Chalfonte Dr. (this line would go out Edmondson Avenue to almost the Howard County Line
And it was the WMATA cost overruns that killed most of the lines. The South line was killed by Joe Alton, who was Anne Arundel County Executive in the 1970's. After the WMATA cost overruns, Congress, which had promsied to fully fund in 1974, put everybody else on line-by-line basis for Federal funding.
The Northwest line was the cheapest route, as half of Section A would be airial or elevated. That's why it was first.
I meant at-grade or elevated. That's what you get typing at 1:15 AM :)
Dan,
It's interesting you would bring that up...It was the path of least resistance....You see that on the Metro too (DC)---That's why that sections along present day rail lines were built early....Red Line from Grosvenor to Shady Grove (1984) (well, most of it) and from Union Station to Silver Spring (1978). Not to mention the Orange Line from Minnesota Ave to New Carrollton (also 1978).
Mark
1951-1972: Brooklyn; Culver Line
1972-1976: Boston; Red Line
1976-Present: Buffalo; NFT Metro
STG: The Culver Man. How the hell have you been and where have you been keeping yourself? You haven't posted much lately. Come on now, get with it.
Borned and Raised in Chinatown, Manhattan using MTA New York transit to work and visits. Currently attending school at Fairfield County Conn through MNR
Suffern, NY, though I grew up in the shadow of the Brighton Line in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.
--Mark
Just what we needed on this board----another Brighton man. And here I thought you were a Sea Beach guy, especially since we shared the railfan window a few months back as my train tooled its way through Brooklyn. Well, at least #1 Brighton Express Bob is pleased with your revelation. Where is Suffern though? Is it upstate or on LI?
Suffern is just over the state line from Jersey. Rt. 17 goes through it and there is a Thruway exit. I-287 comes up from Jersey at that spot, too.
If you remember the old Ford plant in Mahwah, NJ (where Sharp has their HQ now), Suffern is 1/4 mile from there.
Heh, I'm an equal opportunity railfan. No bias here. For a while, I used to like the West End better than the Brighton. I should tell you that I got some great runbys on video this summer on the Sea Beach during a GO where all Coney Island-bound service ran express using the Sea Beach middle track.
--Mark
Wanna bet Fred's going to want a tape of that?:)
Let me know how and when to get that Sea Beach video. I'd love to have one.
#4 Sea Beach Fred: You do not get around. Suffern is on the western side of the Hudson just above the NJ state line. I think it is the first town in NY that you hit after leaving the Garden State.
Then unknown to me I did pass it when I took the Palisades in the summer of 1999 for my three day stay at Cooperstown. I just don't remember the name but since it is on the route I breezed through it. I have heard it is a nice community except for all the Yankee fans polluting the place.
I know a guy down here in DC that grew up in Suffern. Last name Udoff. His family is still up there. He's a huge Jets and Mets fan, used to drive me nuts with the J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS chant.
IC, quit complaining. You ought to hear me give my Mets chant. It would drive you out of your freaking mind. My wife runs out of the work when I start doing it, but I haven't done it too much lately for reasons you only have to pick up a paper to discern.
LOL, well, it can't be as bad as the fair weather Redskin fans that we have down here! One minute they're singing "Hail to the Redskins", the next minute after they lose, it looks like someone stole their favorite toy.
I never heard the end of Keyshawn when he was with the Jets, now everytime I mention his name, I get growled at. haha.
What is this Mets chant, anyway?
BTW, if you saw ESPN Classic's airing of Game 5 of the '69 World Series back in June, they included a clip of Gil Hodges being interviewed in the clubhouse by Lindsey Nelson after the game.
Sorry I missed it. I've always liked the Mets but I didn't start rooting for them until 1983 and they were very bad then. The next year Gooden was a rookie, Davy Johnson came on board, Hernandez settled in for his first full season, and Wally Backman gave them the second baseman and second hitter they needed and they took off.
What about George Foster, Home Run hitter from the Reds? That was the Mets first series acquisition when they decided that they wanted a pennant.
Anything is better than that f@+$#&^*! Atlanta Braves "tomahawk" chant.
Hello from across the river!
The name says it all......
I call Hastings-on-Hudson, New York my home.
#3 West End Jeff
Greenpoint, Brooklyn. With the G train in the neighborhood but have the option of the L train at Bedford Ave and the 7 train at Vernon-Jackson in LIC. Although, might soon be moving to Princeton, NJ. :-(
Paul
Paul: I remember areas of Greenpoint that were heavily Polish. Is that still the case? I knew a Vincent Pazerekus there, but he was either Greek or Lithuanian. There was also a small Italian section as well. Near Vernon-Jackson, the road once continued to lead to a small bridge that got you into Brooklyn. They closed that down and now Vernon Blvd deadends where the road used to go. Progress, I guess.
Pazerekus could be a Lithuanian name. Most of our surnames end in -as, -is, -ys, or -us. Never -ous as do some Greek surnames. You won't offend a Lithuanian by saying his surname sounds Greek. However, it is a brutal slap in the face to us and a stinging insult if someone equates our nationality to Polish or worse, Russian. We have two things in common with Poland: the Latin alphabet and the Catholic Church. The languages, however, are totally unrelated. We have nothing in common with Russia.
OK, I'm through. And now for something completely different. A man with a tape recorder up his brother's nose.
Aw GEEZ ... You're not going to put on a dress, do a whirly-gig Irish ripoff Eastern European "folk dance" thing with a red skirt and then "try to take over the world" stare, are ya? Heh. Could be worse, you could be Bulgarian. Now watch as the "why you DO these things?" starts rolling in. Tovarich. :)
No, but I could bring my accordion and serenade everyone with a folk dance or two.
Naaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.:)
Fred, Greenpoint has remained the same. In fact, it seems to be a bit more crowded these days.
Vernon- Jackson in LIC has changed somewhat with the development of two huge condos. There were build on the ROW during the era of railfloats. I believe Kevin Walsh has a few pictures on his website
(http://www.forgotten-ny.com ) about LIC. The road ends now at the LIRR LIC yard. But further up the block, there are a few trolley rails visible in front of the 7 train station. The track ends at a parking lot, which I think, was a barn for the trolleys.
As for the bridge, that’s before my time. But I have heard about it, which connected Greenpoint and LIC sometime ago.
Paul
Ever get an egg cream at Sweet Louie's on Manhattan Ave.?
Never heard of the place. I am landing in New York this Friday and if you can give me the address I will go there. As far as I know the only remaining candy store soda fountain left in New York City is Hinch's on Fifth Avenue in Brooklyn. Fishbowl and I went there in May and had one after a fun time in Coney Island. If there are other soda fountain candy stores left any one out there can give the location and I would be much obliged. I can remember when there seemed to be one every three or four blocks.
I currently reside in Old Bridge, New Jersey. However, up until 2 1/2 years ago, I lived in Brooklyn. For 40 years. And unlike guys like #4 Sea Beach Fred, I have no fondness for the place. I guess it's because I still go back there every couple of weeks to visit family. It was a good place to grow up, however, because it prepares you for just about anything in life. Now, it's time for me to relax and take only 10 minutes to travel 5 miles, as opposed to Brooklyn, where it takes about 45 minutes to travel the same distance.
And Fishbowl works for New Jersey Transit and if he doesn't consider himself lucky he's the biggest ingrate around. BTW, it is only because of the Sea Beach, Coney Island and the Cyclone that Brooklyn still holds its attraction for me. Like Queens, where I lived most of my time in New York, some of the changes I;ve seen have saddened me. However, I can say the New York I've seen the past couple of years far outpaces what I saw in 1974 and 1991. I really believe the city is coming back.
Fred, I do consider myself lucky. However, working for NJ Transit enables me to live and work in New Jersey. When I worked in Manhattan years ago, I was "content" to stay in Brooklyn, even though I didn't have to. It worked out perfectly where I started my second career and made a geographical move shortly thereafter.
South Amboy, NJ
4 blocks from station.
1 block from west pocket.
My name is Steven Green. I live in Austin, Texas and I sometimes take a Capital Metro bus. Mainly because they are still only 50 cents and the price has not changed since I moved here from Astoria in 1989. I usually drive on I-35.
I would never say that I am a "Texan". I am a native New Yorker from Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn and I grew up on the Brighton Line.
I lived in University City in Phila. for six years by the 34th st Market Street Line "Blue Line" station.
I lived in Back Bay section of Boston for a year near the Green Line and Red Line.
I also lived in Lindenwold, NJ by the PATCO line to Phila.
And finally a few years in Miami Beach before they had trains in Miami.
Have you checked out "Katz" over on the West End of town?
Yeh, they are OK. There is not a good pizza in this town.
BTW, Katz's has the hallway where you enter, set up to look like a pre-1970 subway car, with metal straps and other features, such as old IRT windows, polls and other features.
When I take friends around from out of town, I take them to the Green Mesquite (BBQ sandwiches) and to Lone Star (Round Rock Donuts) which are one of the ten best donuts in the USA.
we also have a few true Chinese restaurant in the style of San Francisco chinatown.
Cedarhurst, New York.
Third westbound stop on the Far Rockaway LIRR line.
Just watch the CNN News, Isidore's sister LILI is firing up within past 12 hours. According to the News Media and the National Hurricane Center @ www.nhc.noaa.gov" Hurricane LILI is upgraded to Category 4 Status with wind up to 135 Mph and expected to intensify further possible Category 5 Hurricane within next 12 -24 hours. This means that major damage will be done Southern Louisiana State or east Texas. I hope guys down there prepared for worst.
I have to wonder what'll happen after it makes landfall. Appalachia was hit with MAJOR flooding after Juan came ashore at the same location in 1985. I think all of us on the east coast should keep a sharp eye on this one.
Mark
According to the National Hurricane Center, this will be the another 2nd major hurricane making landfall in US since its weather
history record.
The first being Andrew? It too was a Category 4.
The last major Hurricane that hits the Gulf of Mexico Coast states was the Great Graveston Hurricane unnamed back in couple century.
So far Hurricane Mitch, Andrew, and Camille made it to the top ten deadliest, costliest, and expensive hurricane list
I guess Isidore could do the D herself and decided let her sister Lili continue where its lefted off. Keep in mind that Lili also has a younger brother sitting in the Atlantic few hundred of miles south of Bermuda struggling fighting for his life.
So, it gets very, very, very wet. It gets very windy as well.
Where or how are the Canal trolleys stored or protected from storm and water damage?
Avid
I think there was also Hurricane Audrey in 1957.
--Mark
I hail from Brooklyn, not to far from downtown. It's amazing that Downtown Brooklyn's skyline seems to be growing at the same rate as me. At the rate Forest City Ratner develops that area (and pushes for more development), downtown Brooklyn will become a financial district in it's own right.
answer ....where ever i can get a nice hotel / motel & there is a nice
rail transit system to go out & take photos of !
this will include a trip to san diego to really shoot the san diego
trolley "redbirds" in a day and night format
( not just day shots only )
Well I usually just lurk here, and occasionally post about maps and other geographic arcania. However, this roll call seems to have gotten just about everybody that I recognize to put their hand in the air. Therfore, I feel obligated to do so also.
I currently live in Brigton, MA during the weekdays, and in Washington Heights on the weekends. Why the long weekend commute? It has to do with working in high-technology -- New York just doesn't have a lot of jobs in electronics so I'm working elsewhere.
My home station is 190th St on the "A". That's right, just do what the Ellington song tells you to & you'll find my place!
I'm a lifelong Philadelphian and currently live in the hills of Roxborough in the northwest part of town. Unfortunately it's nowhere near anything that runs on rails (the closest rail line is the R6 about a mile down the hill, but not that easy for me to use and certainly not as convenient as the 27 bus which stops about a half block from me and takes me practically to my office door). I find excuses to ride the El and the subway-surface cars, as well as the R6, on occasion to go to and from after-work groups and activities.
I spent the first 25 years of my life in South Phila and was spoiled by two trackless lines (29 and 79, the only two still running) within a couple of blocks, as well as the 50 trolley not too far away (although the 5 bus was much closer, and therefore was the route of choice for north-south runs - 50 service was never very dependable at that time).
I rode the 29 to high school every day and grew to like the tracklesses. Going to college, I found reasons to ride the PCC's in the subway-surface tunnel. The Woodland Depot fire happened shortly after I started college, so the rides were adventures and you never knew what class of PCC was going to show up on any given run, with a wide variety of paint schemes (only the ex-Kansas City cars and the ex-TTC's, when they arrived, didn't run in the tunnel).
After a year of 'exile' in Eastwick, which put me on the 36 trolley every day, it was back to South Phila for 3 years. A search for a little more space sent us off to the hills, where I've been for the past 16 years. I weathered the 'stinky' Volvo articulated buses for their careers and now enjoy the more dependable (and more comfortable) Neoplan artics.
One of my favorite rides growing up was the Broad St subway, with the relics that served it during that period. I quickly took a liking to the 'South Broad' cars (the more 'modern' ones with the more comfortable seats (and more cross seats than the original Broad cars)). There was something about both classes of cars that made the ride something that I always looked forward to taking.
I grew up and lived in Astoria, Queens until 1976. Astoria Blvd. was my home station and my favorite line and train was the T (R32)until it was robbed by the IND in 1967. I never forgave the TA for putting the RR as the Astoria line with its decrepit R16s during my prime railfanning years.
Lived in Puerto Rico 1976-1981, no real mass transit except the bus system in the San Juan metro area.
Lived in the Baltimore-Washington area 1981-1989 and I mostly rode the WMATA Orange line from New Carrollton to get into Washington.
Currently living in the Dallas, TX area where DART has a very decent bus system and light rail system. The rail system has been expanding into the Dallas suburbs. My new "home" station will be Garland on the Blue line which will open Nov-Dec 2002.
Any subtalkers in my home area?
I'm not in your home area, but I've been on the DART light rail. It's awesome.
It snakes it's way through the streets of downtown Dallas, like trolleys once did in many US cities. Then DART transforms into a high speed commuter rail line in the suburbs. I was there two years ago, and saw construction being done on many of the new stations and track. I remember going all the way out to section of town near the Bronco Bowl arena. Naturally, I'm familiar with that venue. Lucha Libre AAA has been there many times. I'm a huge Lucha fan. Thus the name LuchAAA.
I rode DART in December of 2000. I liked the fast subway run after the "S" curve off local streets (Sorry, I don't know street names). There was one subway station that wasn't opened yet when I was there. (It opened last year, I think).
--Mark
That would be the City Place station between the Mockingbird Lane and Pearl Street Stations which opened last year. City Place is the only underground station in the entire DART Rail system and the run from Mockingbird to Pearl is very Subway-like. The S-curve you refer to is north of Pearl.
Another thing about DART is that in the suburbs the station separation is sufficient to have 60-70 mph runs. Train speed limits are posted along the tracks.
Do you consider Austin, your home area? I know Richard kaufman in Garland. He is from Orange, NJ.
Oh yeh, I moved to Austin, from Astoria in 1989, and I have fond memories of Astoria from the few years that I lived there by the Ditmars Blvd. station.
Well, home for me still feels like Boston, although I am currently living just south of San Francisco. Currently ride BART fairly regularly, and MUNI when I can....
Used to live in Boston, Atlanta, and NYC. So, have done all the Rapid Transit Lines in Boston....MARTA(when the subway first opened :) ), but my head and heart are always with the TA.
Iwas born in Uzbekistan, raised in Brooklyn, Ny where the Culver F train is my home line. Spent my childhood days documenting the homeless population/activity in the Amtrak riverside (FREEDOM) tunnel, marveling at trains
going through the tunnel, as well as being fascinated by CI Yard.
14th street off 8th ave( A,C,E & L) is home for me. Don't post here much but read often. Work near Chambers and use every train for deliveries throughout all Manhattan. I've been to every station between lower Manhattan and 125th st. numerous times in the past 8 years and occasionally, above 125th to Inwood.
I'm in Howard Beach, in the shadow of that horrible abominatoin called the AirTrain station.
Born and raised in the Lower East Side...currently residing on the western boundary known as the Bowery!
It looks like my first response did not make it to the net, so I will try again.
I live in Austin, Tx but I would never call myself a "Texan". I take Capital Metro busses once in a while because they are still only 50 cents. The price has remained the same since I moved here from Astoria in 1989. I usually drive on I-35.
I grew up in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn and always took the Brighton Line.
I lived in the University City, section of Philadelphia for six years and used the Market Street "Blue Line" at 34th street.
I lived in the Back Bay section of Boston and used the Green Line at Copley or Arlington but I also was near the Red Line at Charles Street.
I lived in Lindenwold, NJ near PATCO and used it every day to a
job in Collingswood and two other jobs in Phila.
I was in Miami Beach for a few years before they had Metrorail.
I also lived by Ave. P on the F and Ditmars Blvd. N (now W too) at two different places.
I will stay put in Austin because it is a good place to make money
but I love to visit NYC often and check out the subways, food, radio stations and my beloved NY Mets.
Yeadon, PA is where I'm from. Of course, that entails a lot of traveling by trolley or R3.
Come to think of it, I've lived close to one of the Subway-Surface lines three times in my life. Close to Regional Rail also.
I need some confirmation even though I checked the website. HBLR is extended to Hoboken, and new stations have opened on the Newark City Subway. Is this correct? I want to do some trolley railfanning Friday!
Yes, that's correct. The new stations on the City Subway have been open for a while though... I rode the line in late August and they were open then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool. Thanks. I actually hope it rains. I love railfanning on rainy days. Yeah, kind of weird, but it's true. :)
Why Trolley's on Friday, why don't you join us on our trip to Long Beach??
See other posts about it, a few subtalkers are going.
That would be LRVs. Years ago everything got a new dress, i.e. "streamlined". Trolleys are now LRV or DMUs (elect or diesel version).
I have several items about expansion of transit in Atlanta. If all this stuff becomes a reality, the ATL should become quite the place to railfan.
To summarize, I drew this map:
First up, we have the green colored line, I'll call it the Perimeter Line. Here is an article about how three busieness districts are pooling their money together to get a study done to see what type of transit can be built there. So far, they came up with a 14 mile, 9 station route. They want to determine if they should use Light rail or BRT for the line. I'm pretty sure light rail will win.
Next, there is the Belt Line, in yellow. My school newspaper has an aeticle about this. What was originally a thesis project got the attention of the City Coucil President, and now she is pushing for it. See here thoughts here. Also, there is an excellent PDF presentation here (large, 35 pages). The presentation shows the route it will take, along with photos. Somewhere in the presentation they show where there are abandoned rail tunnels, I need to get out there check them out! The line proposed will be 22 miles long with 45 stations. The main force behind the project is opening up under-used land for development in established areas, which is a good thing. They estimate the areas close to the route can bring in 100,000 more people into the city to live. This is a great example of "build it and they will come." Having the already establish rail line will do woders for the ridership. I have already written Cathy Woodward my support, this project makes so much sense.
Lastly, the Red colored line, the Northwest Line, is briefly mentioned in two of the articles. This line is already in the works with funding, and we should see the opening by 2007 for the first segemnt from Arts Center to Cumberland.
I believe for the most part, that these lines will be built. There are many more YIMBYs than there are NIMBYs, and people are finally starting to get a clue that roads just don't work.
Personally, I liked the Dayton Area Rapid Transit concepts. CI Peter
Please explain, I'm not familiar with them.
I think the proposals we have right now are perfect because they cover nearly every major areas of business and residence in the city, so it will relieve traffic, plus it'll open up new areas for people and businesses without the usual sprawl we are accustomed to.
He was talking about the wonderful Miami Valley Rail Authority.
Mark
Oh yeah, I saw the intials formed (DART), and I was thinking of Dallas for some reason. But I don't think this is fantasy. THe Northwest Line will be built as it already has funding, and the Perimeter line is being pushed by business leaders in the area who are paying for the study themselves. The Belt line is still just a concept, but I'm sure once more people hear about it, it will get the support it needs.
Can Atlanta spare a few transit-minded citizens, business people, and politicians and send them to Philadelpia? We could use a few to help us get the rail lines we need!
:)
Mark
Maybe after we catch up to Philly in terms of route mileage, I'll think about sending my boys up there :-)
Damn, what an operations nightmare. I'd love to find out how they plan to route these vehicles. One ring is bad enough, on that diagram there are one ring and three branches and part of the ring is the branch!
Yeah, really. I'm wondering that myself. Perhaps when real engineering work is done, they'll need to buy new ROW and get rid of those weird branches. Only at Lindbergh can I understand if they leave it, it might be the start and end points for the trains, since I'm sure that most people will transfer there.
I believe for the most part, that these lines will be built. There are many more YIMBYs than there are NIMBYs, and people are finally starting to get a clue that roads just don't work.
Not to mention the fact that Atlanta's the sort of place where there's a can-do spirit and things get done. Unlike you-know-where.
And now since Bill Campbell and his cronies are out of office, the city gov't will actually perform functions. The current mayor and president are actually working together to do stuff. I'm sure the Belt Line will get the most support from Atlantans since it's one of the few projects that doesn't focus on the suburbs and is strictly for Atlanta's benefit.
I have a question, on the Cumberland to Dunwoody segment, will the proposed trackage go through Eastern Cobb County or not?
Probably by not much. I believe it will roughly follow I-285 from Cumberland to Dunwoody, so there will only be a couple of miles within Cobb. Aren't you in Marietta? The Northwest Line will go all the way to Town Center eventually, so you should be close to that line when built.
Too bad the meeting I'm going to in Atlanta is in 2005, not later! These look like ambitious plans. I hope they get built and provide a model for other cities. By the way, is the red line light rail or heavy metro?
Mark
It'll be light rail. I don't think we'll see any new heavy rail trunk routes built anymore :-( It costs too much, and I think they want to cover as much area as possible with transit, so light rail is the most practical. But we'll definitely see extensions/branches of the current heavy lines at some point.
Will the Northwest Line be a distinct operation (meaning will you have to transfer from the North-South route to use it)? Or will it be a branch operation of the North-South line?
It'll be distinct, the line will be light rail. I was exploring the area around where the NW line will cross the interstate over to Arts Center, and it looks like there could be a direct path from the bridge to where the line can terminate above and parallel to the N/S line where the current mezzanine is, like how it's setup on Market St in San Fran with MUNI and BART. It would be a conveinent transfer if it was set up like that.
What's with the rash of dead LCD side signs on many R142A's running on the 6? By dead I mean not visible, dim, nonfunctioning. Do the R142's have this lil dilemma?
Yes. LCD displays have power supply problems and CPU failures. Also, certain 37.5 VDC illumination circuit failures turn off the flourescent backlighting. Wanna buy a cheap pinball machine?
CI Peter
Today I finally got a good look at those giant black boxes on the 6's El, and I think that they are lockers of some sort. I think that I spotted a big combo lock on one of the lockers.
Just so ya know...
They are part of the modern signaling system the MTA is installing all around.
For proof, take a ride on the 7 and peek out the windows near the 111th, Willets Point stops and you can see these 'lockers' all around. I've managed to spot them open and they appear to reveal plenty of various switches and wires.
CBTC signals?
Most possibly. A lot of rumor and hearsay about the L and 7 being tests for the technology, as the 'L' part of it is pretty much true.
It's not hard to say since there is a poster advertising a 'Moderization Signal Project' at Main Street Terminal. The sign is at the regular mezzanine right above the intersection of Main and Roosevelt.
One of the reasons I don't post as much as I used to is the crazy and inflamatory topics that get started because someone deliberately inserts an inflamatory post and someone else feels that they must respond to it. Don't you realize when you are being baited?
THIS BOARD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF RAIL AND RELATED TRANSPORTATION TOPICS ONLY. (The caps are mine on purpose and if you don't like it you can shove up your BU.)
The latest inflamatory topic is the New Jersey Senate Race. We have bats and bricks being hurled back and forth and people being insulted for there beliefs. This discussion belongs somewhere else but not here.Take the fight outside the bar. I also have some very strong opinions on the politcal situation but I put my money where my mouth is. I am a member of and a contributor to a major political party and you all have my e-mail address if you want to hear them.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Oh, so that's how you become popular on subtalk? By knocking the political discussion?
This isn't the place for political discussion, except for discussions which are transportation based. If anyone wants to fight about who's a better Senator, then go to PoliticalTalk or somewhere else.
Mr.Pirmann places the disclaimer on the top of the board for a reason.
But it is not YOUR role to enforce it.
I started the Senate race thread because it has a lot to do with what could happen to Amtrak and major project funding (like NJT's proposed new tubes into Penn). Also, regardless of who wins the race (after tonight's announcement), NJ's senator will be a freshman, with no seniority to help get choice committee assignments controlling $$$. I didn't post this last paragraph the first time. Perhaps I should have (but at least one other poster understood it without my having to spell it out. Did you?).
QWhy do we need new tubves into penn. the old tubes work fine. before you know it there will be a transistor into penn. maybe penn will even make it onto an IC.
Because tubes are elegant and pretty and resistant to EM pulse and when the black helicopters from the New World Order land at Penn the tubes will resist them, unlike the IC's.
:0)
Are you out of M's doghouse yet?
Are you out of M's doghouse yet?
Yes, I think. Today, I've been acting up because I'm pisqed orff with my research work and I've nearly fired my research advisor...
AEM7
Just as long as you don't piss off the committee which decide later whether or not you graduate...
Just as long as you don't piss off the committee which decide later whether or not you graduate...
Amen to that. Learned that one the hard way :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, I've seen the light. We should NEVER complain about politics or try to illustrate the point. When trains stop running, then we can tell jokes about it and call them bedwetters and crybabies when they have to take a bus. Hallelujah, I've seen the light.
Me too, the fare box covers 100% of operating expense and capital funding. I was under the mistaken idea that the government funding covered most of these costs and who was in the governemnt (elected representatives) had a major role in how (and even if) transit operated.
But I guess it is better to design and post about "My Plan for the 5th, 9th and 11th Avenue Subways for the year 2300". They may just appear by osmosis!
Not if Frank Lautenberg, the former NJ Senator who will run in place of Toricelli, wins. Ironically, he feuded with Toricelli on many occasions. He was pro-Amtrak while in the Senate, very much so. But at the same time, since he's been out of the Senate for two years, I guess technically that makes him a freshman Senator - at 78 years old. I'm sure he would still command a lot of respect, though.
Apparently, Lautenberg has already talked to Senate Democrats about regaining his seniority if he is returned to the Senate, though I'm not sure what his committee assignments were or who might have to step aside in order to fulfill that promise (and the Senate has other egos just as big as the Torch's who might not want to give up their seniority to satisfy Lautenberg).
Anyway, I'm betting that he'll be appointed to the Senate by next week, after the Democrats' appeal of the 51-day ballot rule is rejected, Torricelli resigns and McGreevy then appoints Lautenberg as his replacement (of course there's that other little question of whenther or not that move would allow McGreevy to cancel the Senate election for a year. Since the first of the absentee ballots already are starting to be mailed back and the military ballots already have been mailed out -- both with Torricelli's name on them -- that could create a doozey of a court fight in Trenton and probably Washington).
You make a good point about the egos who may not want to step aside for Lautenberg or Bradley. But keep in mind that with a 1 seat majority, they may have to give him what he wants. It is better to be chariman of less prestigous committee than "ranking minority member" of a more prestigous one.
The Senate race is way up in the air and control of it and the House will be decided on election day. You hear the pundits blab about this and that but as usual when the voting is over it is really amazing just how screwed up their predictions are. Just for the record, in 1996 I made a prediction and scored a perfecto. I predicted the Dems would pick up nine House seats and the GOP two Senate seats. I decided to quit predicting while I was luckily ahead.
He would command respect; that wouldn't give him a committee chairmanship, though.
My lord. Where is Pirmann when you need him. Does this board support moderators because I can see them very useful around here in the coming months.
I was going to stay quiet. Really I was. But for the occasional sidetrip here, most of the posters DO stick to rapid transit and have a low percentage of "off topic" ... we also have people posting about CATS and SPORTS too ... and that's even FURTHER off topic.
But it's not MY job or YOUR job to be the controller of thought here, that's up to Mr Pirrman to whom we should ALL be grateful for keeping such a widely variant number of people from trying to kill one another.
I ignore 20 threads here ENTIRELY for every one I actually read. It's really not hard to do. If you're not into a topic, PASS it - it makes the trip through here a LOT faster. If you think a topic's spinning out of control, don't POST to it. Threads come and go here daily and those that aren't fed, die. Pretty simple, actually. And painless.
I'm aware of it, son't worry about it. I just wish Pirmann would show up. Where is he nowadays?
Up to his eyeballs with stuff. If he sees the need to do something he will... if he doesn't, he won't. It's his sandbox.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Larry, you are a good voice of reason at SubTalk, where -- all too often -- threads of non-rapid transit related topics tend to last waaaaaaay beyond any reasonable timeframe...
It's thread drift. Happens everywhere. No BBS sofware ever written can prevent it. It's human nature. Look how group converstions go from toic to topic.
I made a funny comment earlier about there no being any Vulcans among the Subtalk community. A Vulcan viewing this (or any other BBS) would note it most illogical.
It's thread drift. Happens everywhere. No BBS sofware ever written can prevent it. It's human nature. Look how group converstions go from toic to topic.
Like the way almost any Subtalk thread, after it hits 25 or so messages, is almost bound to lead to a discussion of food!
Like the way almost any Subtalk thread, after it hits 25 or so messages, is almost bound to lead to a discussion of food!
This really eats shite!!! An off-topic thread about off-topic threads, and we morons don't stop!
Is shite tasty?
It's all Selkirk's fault. A little bird told me.
Yep, I did it all. It was just a little dog. And we're going to keep it. You won't have Selkirk to kick around anymore. :)
STOP SCREWIN AROUND IN SHOP CLASS.
I'd rather screw around in a railcar, but apparently they don't allow THAT here either. So I'll go sit in the corner, mope and fidget. :)
Do that an we'll put you on Ritilin!
Puppy uppers and doggie downers. Woohoo! :)
It's all Selkirk's fault. A little bird told me.
Are birds allowed in transit systems if they were kept in a cage? What about bald eagles? Are those allowed in transit systems? I was at MBTA's Porter Sq station the other day -- this is the deepest station on the system, which is at least 7 stops away from an above-ground station. There was a resident pigeon sitting there. It must be French. Maybe it's a Bombardier/Alstom product.
AEM7
What you found was a specially trained train pigeon. These birds were trained by Bombardier to make their products a home. I love to close the doors upon them....they swoop into the R142 like a F111 landing upon the deck of a carrier. Clap your hands and slam yourself into a wall...they erratically fly in the middle of the car pointing their beak like a sharp weapon. There had been rumors that a CI trained them for his family restaraunt...'Chinese Chicken'...but two generations of pigeons have existed since his pick out. One bird followed the stairs to the lunchroom and encountered a CTA three times...ILSHTIFOMC upon first contact. CI Peter
LMAO Selkirk. You are priceless and a good sport. I knew my short kiddingly sacrastic retort would inspire you to come out with a gem. Once again, nice going.
You're welcome. And REMEMBER, I am *not* a cook. :)
No you're not. You sir are a unique original. Keep up the good work.
It's amazing how this thread gone off the deep end. I think to prevent this, moderation is in order. Or you can just let this run wild.
>>> I think to prevent this, moderation is in order <<<
If you want moderated board, you are free to set one up. Otherwise, just ignore the threads you do not like on this one.
Tom
Vulcans? Ferengi welcome the aquisition. CI peter
Off-topic threads go on as long as they are not removed and as long as people respond to them. They really are't that common.
It is not BMTMan's or ChuChubob's, or anybody else's place to decide whether the thread belongs or not.
If you don't want to participate in a thread, don't post to it...
You seem to have missed the point of my post.
Not trying to DECIDE for anyone, merely stating a FACT, thank you very much...
Not trying to DECIDE for anyone, merely stating a FACT, thank you very much...
How did you get ChuchuBob into this message????
I heard you the first time. We could always go back to talking about Salaam's experience but that would get Train Dude and SUBWAY SURF mad, or we can stay on this and get Larry R Redbird 33 mad. It is human nature to respond when someone comes out with some outrageous political post. Anyway, it will all be settled with a week.
Gee Ron, that's like telling someone that if they don't like the content of a TV show to change the channel or turn the set off. It is much better to have the FCC ban the program. And the funny thing is that more often than not, it is the conservatives who want the show banned rather than let the free market determine if it is viable or not! Can we say hypocrite?
Gee Ron, that's like telling someone that if they don't like the content of a TV show to change the channel or turn the set off. It is much better to have the FCC ban the program. And the funny thing is that more often than not, it is the conservatives who want the show banned rather than let the free market determine if it is viable or not! Can we say hypocrite?
Well, as long as we're off-topic already...
I've always wondered why those supposed free market conservatives always like to complain about the so-called 'liberal media' bias. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head making them buy the NY Times, Newsweek, or The Washington Post or watch CBS News with Dan Rather. If there were such a clamor for a conservative viewpoint, The National Review would be putting Time out-of-business. Trouble is, most people don't like to be told how to think. Besides, the right-wing niche is being served by Fox News Channel, which is beating CNN, and we do have a Republican controlled House and conservative puppeteers running the White House, so I guess the Liberal Media isn't as strong as they whine about. But these people are masters of misdirection. As soon as we get close to pointing out their hypocrisy, they change the subject..."Corporate crooks? Well, what about the ultimate crook, Saddam Hussein! Let's go get him! But, what about Ken Lay? Who cares? Get the bad man in the Middle East!..."
Along those same lines, if the thread-drifters didn't want to discuss politics, but only transit, we wouldn't have the thought-police attempting to censor this board! :O)
I think politics-as-it-relates-to-rail is a valid topic for this board, even though I'm pretty sure Mr. Pirmann wants this place to be a more nuts-and-bolts discussion. But really, the history of the subway is enmeshed in politics, so how can you get away from it here? This site is partly about the history of the subway, after all.
Pete,
You said it all!
The misdirection thing has been raised to an art form. By the way, I haven't heard much about privatizing Social Security laterly, I wonder why? I was going to invest my retirement money in Enron, Global Crossing and Martha Steward Omnimedia; how much would I have made if GW had "unleashed" the power of the free market on me as opposed to waisting my money in a boring (and safe) place like the Social Security fund? I'm 43 now, when could I retire with the riches those investments would have made me?
And politics is about its FUTURE as well. SAS, anyone? However, discussing politics and how it affects mass transit is a prohibited thought, I'm calling my precinct captain and dropping dime on ya. :)
I'm still wondering what happened to that budget surplus we had a few years back, anyone remember it? it was billions and billions of dollars, as I recall, one candidate wanted to invest it back into the country, do things like pay off debt, and other necessary yet non glamourous things. But other candidate, after a few brewskys and joints with the old college buddies (read daughters), decided that it would be more fun to give it to the taxpayers, but not the middleclass, but rather to the upperclass, the very same people now screwwing our economy in possibly the world greatest Gang Bang. Of course the other candidate was chosen for us, and here we sit, mired in economic ruin, war looming, not even valiant, WWII-type war, but gristle-filled, dirty, ungodly political war, war simply for the sake of war, a war of misdirection, as keystone Pete already said, quite well. Scrub made just one mistake, the same one that his father made, today, with smart weapons, and the ability to reduce a country, like Afganistan to dust in 2 days, with merely our conventional weapons, a war with Iraq cannot possibly last long enough to give him the boost that he will really need in the polls during the coming election. The war will end, saddam will either be captured or killed by some penetration bomb, and suddenly all eyes will return to the homeland. They could try Osama, assuming we don't know where he is at this point, but how long can america look for a man who isn't there? Heck, this is probably where the whole Saddam thing came from; can't have em concentrate on Kenneth Lay, He's friends with BUSH II, and Osama is a dead horse, can't beat him any more without making our own intelligence arms look bad. So heck, why not stay in the neighborhood, "who we got there? Iran? Yemen? ahhhh Iraq"
Anybody want to place a wager on the person whom they will pick then, should the current regime still be in power?
I'm going with Dick Cheney, by then we'll all know about his wierd fetishes and stuff, and his coup'de ta will have failed, and we'll all have wised up to his, "Belive me, I am the government routine"
But that's just my plastic penny
Heh, you're like another poster I recognize at Rider Diaries. Always the vigilante...We're really developing into Rider Diaries now. I will watch and tell if it becomes as I predict. Don't bother replying to my post. No insults intended for anybody.
What French? There isn't a French word in your whole post.
Jeff: Isn't BU French for something?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Constantly blaming one party or the other for whatever _____ (Insert rail/transit system here)'s woes are is what starts it 1/2 the time....
It seems hopeless. Lots of the responses chalk it up to thread drift, but this thread never involved transit, not even in the first post. Notice though that it's a small number of people posting again and again on the political threads. Most people stay away.
Then it's up to us to get rid of 'em!. ;-)
This Board has been a political discussion board at least since I first arrived here 3 years ago.
"Hell" is not French, it's Middle English, but I'll pardon you anyway.
Hell" is not French, it's Middle English, but I'll pardon you anyway.
"We'll I'll be damned"
Larry,RedbirdR33
"Off Topic" can be hard to define. Transit and transit systems are virtually all subsidized by various governemnt agencies. Government agencies are run (or at least overseen and funded) by politicians. What politians are in office, are running for (or from) office is relevent to transit discussions. Some polictos from the deep south see transit funding as money thrown in the garbage and would like nothing better than to cut off all subsidies for the NY (and other major city) transit system. Yet for some reason they don't see multi billion dollar highway projects as being the same exact thing A GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY!
So, to the extent that some politians are transit friendly and others are the opposite; that is a legitimate topic for discussion. It just so happens that Torricelli was pro transit, on that issue alone, transit systems will be losing a supporter in the US Senate.
Viva la France!
--Mark
By studying the pattern, we're becoming like Rider Diaries. It got so hectic that people went haywire!!!
Why don't we just change our forum name to 'Rider Diaries'?
To add some more, if you try to post something over at the Diaries, most of the time, you get useless OT posts that go no where and often lead to
A)more pointless posts
B)a possible debate
and the result, it post pumps users' posts and i think it can slow down the database, unless I'm wrong, which I think I am.
I only visited that website twice, and got a pounding headache each time....never been back.
I know, the used to be more transit-oriented, but now you have like these pointless little debates and rants like Gun Ownership, Iraq and other political banter that really didn't belong there before.
I hope it doesn't happen here. Mr. Pirmann is busting himself for this website.
The latest delivery of R-142s is currently being put in the barn at East 180th St with the usual enterage of yellow diesels to do the chores....
-Stef
Stinking garbage trainsets not properly inspected by East 180th put int RTO with a myriad of defects they want vendors to fix. My partner and I inspected ten cars, fourty shoe beams and had to adjust thirty on trainsets that received limited service. Bombardier is a manufacturer of junk/killer trainsets.
Okay, Slate is one of the better 'zines, but they really had a blooper in today's edition. An "Explainer" article discussing why dying people often see a bright light began:
Train operator Kelvin DeBourgh Jr. was killed last week when the new AirTrain, which connects Manhattan to Kennedy International Airport, crashed. Before succumbing to his injuries, he told rescue workers: "I can't see you anymore—all I see is a bright light."
Oops!
I'm not sure what article you are referring to.
If I were to speculate a little, I would guess that the victim is describing the effect of high-stress-related nervous impulses intefering with normal transmission through the optic nerve; or loss of interpretation of vision due to loss of blood supply from the occipital lobe of the brain (which interprets vision), or a combination of both. Additionally, pre-existing conditions (such as migraine) might contribute.
The tourniquet effect of the blocks probably kept him conscious for a while by preserving blood supply to the head. This is not the first time such an event has been recorded.
I don't think he's complaining about the bright light, but rather about the "AirTrain, which connects Manhattan to Kennedy International Airport" part.
In Trains magazine, they did a shot on 7/5/02 of the R143's stopping at Livonia Ave. station where a set of Redbirds (R29's) with 239th St. stickers underneath the numbers went overhead, but I could not tell what the assignment for that set was. Can anyone clarify that?
I assume that was just a 5 train going in service from New Lots Yard to 238/White Plains Road. It was not a 1 or 3 train.
A few 5 trains run to New Lots. You probably saw one of them. So do a few 2 trains, but the 2 had very few Redbirds assigned on 7/5. And the 4 also runs to New Lots at nights and during some GO's, but the 4's Redbirds are all R-33's and they all have orange Mosholu stickers.
(BTW, there is no IRT station called Livonia Avenue. I assume you mean one of the stations along the line to New Lots.)
You know, you got me all excited for nothing.
no,he means the Livonia Ave. station on the L which is beneath the Livonia Ave. line with Junius St within a short distance away.
It could have been a No.2 or 5 Trains the No.1 train were not the only trains running to New Lots.
Maybe that 5 "Layup in New Lots" consist...
Which transit systems are not yet AWFLA compliant? The recently passed American With Four Legs Act requires transit systems to provide lampposts and "doggie shitters" in addition to other provisions such as water pail at every station for guide horses for the blind. Four Legged Creatures are Americans too and Transit Systems must treat them with respect. Which system does not yet have capital funding to implement AWFLA related equipments?
An interesting question. Guide Dogs, Signal Dogs, and Service Dogs (and police dogs) are allowed on trains. Should they wear a diaper?
Signal dogs? Don't tell me Bomba's gotten the contract on homeballs. :)
Please -- no references to E_Dog...let's not even go there ;)
I wasn't referring to E_Dog...
Speaking of animals, what is MTA NYCT's and other transit systems policy on cats (in a carrier) on the buses and subways?
OC Transpo here in Ottawa doesn't allow them at all, which I find very frustrating. My vet is a little ways down the street from me, but just out of walking distance (especially with a large cat carrier). It would be a short and easy bus ride to take my cat there but they won't allow him on board!!
It would be a short and easy bus ride to take my cat there but they won't allow him on board!!
That's precisely the reason why I believe there is a need for the Americans With Four Legs Act. Animals deserve more respect than this. It's like saying that colored people should use a different urinal than whites. What's the difference between a cat and a person? As long as the cat doesn't make a nusiance of himself/herself, there are no valid reasons to bar them from transit.
Health professionals might argue that cats carry disease. So why isn't there explicit ban of people with TB or other airbourne-transmitted disease on transit systems?
Clear double standards here.
But in any case, AWFLA will not help your case with OCTranspo, cuz you are not an American. So Rights and Responsibilities of Americans do not apply to you.
AEM7
Here I've gotta side with you. Clearly the RATS have an advantage and are the majority. I'll bet the wee four-legged individuals don't even get challenged when they enter a CAB ... :)
Yeah but our rights and responsibilities are very similar, so there's no reason why a simlar act shouldn't be passed in Canada. Many transit systems across Canada actually do allow cats on board. I'm going to write to my city councillor, maybe the rule can be repealed before my cat's next vet visit in the spring!! (Wishful thinking, but you never know!!)
Calgary Transit really loves animals... they actually include dogs in their fare structure!! $1.50 gets your dog aboard a bus or the C-train according to their map.
I've got a lot of pals in Calgary. I can see why they let the dogs on the system and for cheap. They cause less trouble. Heh.
>>> I've got a lot of pals in Calgary. I can see why they let the dogs on the system and for cheap <<<
Do they have sled racks instead of bicycle racks for those traveling with dogs? :-)
Tom
Oh ... they gonna GET you for that. Ever hear of an "Alberta clipper?" (weather phenom) ... they come from there. Actually it's warmer up there most of the year than it is here in upstate Noo Yawk. However, there's thousands of starving eskimos shivering in their igloos in Toronto. :)
Calgary's a pretty nice place actually ...
All kidding aside, I can understand why a cat in a carrier would not be allowed on the bus, maybe during rush hour if the bus get crowded. But a cat carrier is no worse than someone with a large shopping bag.
Sorry, I ment to say CAN'T understand. I think cats in carriers should be allowed.
There are all these thoughts going through my dirty mind concerning a common euphamism for a cat, and what that threesome did on the Long Island Railroad recently...
generally when humans shit all over the floor, they're asked to leave (often with handcuffs). YOU try asking a pet owner to remove his pet because it did that.
I agree with you.
There is one thing I think you should be required to do: Teach your cat to jump onto the turnstile and place a token in the slot.
Any cat who can do that deserves to ride on the subway.
BTW, did you see the newspaper story and photo about the cat who lives in the subway?
My cats name is Subway, born in the Westchester Yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is one thing I think you should be required to do: Teach your cat to jump onto the turnstile and place a token in the slot.
Part of AWFLA requirements would be for new fare collection devices. Since a turnstile would not stop a cat from entering the system, cat flaps would be installed that would open upon placement of a token. The other turnstiles intended for people would be converted to run full-length in order to exclude cats. There were doubts as to whether they would successfully exclude RATS. (ask Selkirk). It's a good job that dinasour no longer exists, or transit vehicles would need to be substantially larger. AWFLA requirements specifically excludes elephantines and girrafes and "any other four legged creatures that will not fit in existing subway tunnels". These Americans are required to travel by RBBX trains "for practical reasons".
AEM7
"It's a good job that dinasour no longer exists, or transit vehicles would need to be substantially larger. AWFLA requirements specifically excludes elephantines and girrafes and "any other four legged creatures that will not fit in existing subway tunnels". "
There is no reason to exclude giraffes from elevated lines or from AirTrain. Simply install skylights on the subway car roofs, and politely inform the giraffe that he must transfer to a shuttlebus prior to the underground portion of the line, for example at 121 St on the J.
These Americans are required to travel by RBBX trains "for practical reasons".
LOL! I get that. Does anybody else?
Keeps them cool. :)
you guys....had me goin'there for a sec...LOL
Nope. What's an RBBX train?
RBBX is the FRA reporting mark for Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey.
AEM7
OK, now I get it.
OH CHIT! I *didn't* GET it ... I thought RBBX meant "refrigerated freight. OH, PeTA's gonna be mighty grumpy now! :)
Seriously, any "People eATING Tasty Animals" on subtalk, TRUCE!!! YOU back the truck up on our property up here, and we'll be HAPPY to load it with all sorts of pests (umm, sweet cuddly buttercups of love) and YOU take them home and pet them. Only a few days in the hospital will get you past all those scratches and deer-kicks to the face ... really. Hug them, french kiss them, love them in your own "idiom," WE won't tell, as long as you TAKE THEM AWAY ... moo. :)
Here's a foto.
And that's the new "Richard Simmons Dormitory" at MIT behind the train (no relation to that Richard Simmons!). The dorm is now open, and is being dedicated tomorrow. Maybe we'll be blessed with a freight run-by during the ceremony :-)
You're outta luck, I'm sorry to say, Todd. The only freight that traverse that route on a regular basis is the late-afternoon UPFE which runs by at around 4-6pm, and the return empty at around 10pm-midnight. Of course, there are adhoc moves, but who in the right frame of mind would ship CSX if they're trying to get to a destination in either Northern MA, NH or ME? UPFE = Union Pacific Fruit Express, just so that no one else makes the same mistake...
You might get a commuter-rail/Amtrak empty stock move though.
AEM7
Nice photo. Why aren't you on AIM more?
Nice photo. Why aren't you on AIM more?
heh. Cuz I blocked you, to see how long it would take for you to notice, since you never talk to me on AIM anyways, and you tend to ignore me when I IM you. It took you about a month to notice. I gather you have been too busy keeping Tiffue busy, or perhaps Tiffue has taken a different direction and are beginning to keep you busy. Every time I go on Amtrak, I take a bunch of photos for you, and I get duplicates so that you can have them, and then I send them to you, and you don't even talk to me when I'm online. I suppose you could be busy with school, but then, I am busy too, and I'm a grad student at that rate. Anyway, I shall unblock you, effective now, and I have a bunch of photos for you from when I was at the head end and more random stuff from CSX. Someday I might get them to you, if you're nice. Of course, you might not care, in which case I don't suppose it matters. I'll keep the pics for my album.
AEM7
Yeah, I read that. I think Kennedy is running out of stuff to talk about. A cat of all things. Next thing, he'll be tracking rats to see their daily routine of dining on rotten cheese.
Next thing, he'll be tracking rats to see their daily routine of dining on rotten cheese.
That sounds like the subject of a government study....
"Speaking of animals, what is MTA NYCT's and other transit systems policy on cats (in a carrier) on the buses and subways?"
Never heard of any problem carrying a cat in a carrier on NYCT. Just another form of luggage, I would assume.
FYI Seashore Trolley Museum had a cat until she passed away a month ago. Boatyard came to us from our neighbors who owned the boat yard next to us. She liked the museum soo much she lived there for 18 years. She will be missed and no plans to replace her. Stevie;(
AEM7 Spews more trash on Subtalk and snookers 14 people. I checked it out. There is no American With Four Legs Act. Congress may be generally stupid, but not that stupid.
AEM7 got a prime place in my Killfile. Most of his posts are drivel. Sometimes there's good stuff, but it's not worth sifting through the trash.
"AEM7 Spews more trash on Subtalk and snookers 14 people. I checked it out. There is no American With Four Legs Act. Congress may be generally stupid, but not that stupid."
If you fell for his joke, it's not his fault.
"There is no American With Four Legs Act. Congress may be generally stupid, but not that stupid."
AEM7 is trying to be clever by making what he thinks is an analogy to the Americans With Disabilities Act, because he has made it clear in past posting that he thinks any modifications to bus and rail service to accomodate disabled people is a waste of money.
The problem with his analogy -- and generally with his crusade against the ADA vis a vis transit -- is that disabled people, unlike four-legged creatures, are:
1) taxpayers, with the right to use the public transit which they help finance.
2) citizens, in whose name the transit system is owned and operated.
3) workers, and need to get to work like any other worker.
4) consumers, and the economy benefits when they can get to the department store, the theater, the basketball game, the concert, etcetera.
You have to understand, though, that "AEM-7" comes from a culture where the broad interests of the masses (the community) is far more important than those of individuals, and where there is little protection for individuals. If 900 people are served adequately by a public service (whether transit or anything else), and 100 people cannot gain access to it, those 100 people are out of luck.
"AEM-7" hasn't quite adjusted to US democracy yet.
...a culture where the broad interests of the masses (the community) is far more important than those of individuals...
Oh, oops. Maybe I do believe in socialism after all. Damn. Hmmm. I'm going to have to think about this one really, really hard. Thanks for pointing it out, RonInBayside. Very good point.
This is a trade off between Socialism on the individual level (let's as a society make sure everyone is looked after), and Socialism on the society level (let's make sure the whole society is looked after).
AEM7
And then there's "I, me, mine, I've got mine, screw everybody else."
and the horse they rode in on.
Nah, they got the horse too. :)
Yes, that is very true.
This is a very powerful concept. A million North Vietnamese could die during their long war with Western powers, but in support of their nation, because the death of each is unimportant compared to the survival of the whole.
Are you serious? You couldn't tell he was making a saterial commentary about the ADA? The problem is not w/ AEM7, its your your own lack of any sort of homour sense. I'd bet if you tried laughing it'd break your face.
Don't worry about him reading your insult, I'm sure he has you and 2,147,483,646 other people in his killfile.
Nope. Mike's not there, neither is Train Dude or even our West Coast whipping boy.Or even you, in your many incarnations. I'm very selective, and to get on my list is either somebody who only posts to be seen (no content at all, just trash) or those who have personally insulted me here.
Ah, so I now have a perfect opportunity to insult Dan Lawrence. I've just established that he won't read this, everyone else will read this and laugh, and there will be no repecussion since I'm already in his killfile.
Do I take this tempting opportunity? :)
heh
Dan, I have one sentence to say to you. Killfiles are for wimps!
AEM7
And God has spooken to the hapless minions........sheesh.
That's strange, you've said that Mike is on your killfile and you often publicize who is on your killfile, hence the illusion of you having a big killfile.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but I didn't really mean to insult you personally.
I have only one person on my killfile: busfan
AEM7 got a prime place in my Killfile. Most of his posts are drivel. Sometimes there's good stuff, but it's not worth sifting through the trash.
1. How'd you see this post if he's in your killfile?
2. If you know it's going to be "trash" why even respond?
3. Did that 'humor removal operation' hurt at all? Do you still have the scar?
4. Why put anyone on killfile? You can miss good stuff sometimes.
5. Any chance that you are gonna read this, seeing as I'm on your killfile?
You aren't. He is.
You can view a killfiled message in the first answering post (the one that shows in the Index with a Re: in front of the thread title) by clicking on the "in response to: hot link.
I killfiled him a long time ago. I'm not sorry to miss his stuff. Sometimes (very rarely) he posts good stuff. Mostly not.
this time i photographer shot video all the way to the end of the
line for the lirr !!..........nice, like babylon !!!!
take that long beach amd stick it bog time !!
RONKONKOMA....man what a ride almost like driving across country !!!
totally enjoyed it wait till you see the pics / video !!!
going back this morning to get the inbound to nyc express !!
all aboard !!!
....................lol !!
see ? when the s____t goes down right i say so !!
( not long beach ) & i took pictures like mad & was left alone !!
yea !!!!!!!!! wooooooooooooooppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
comments folks ?? thankz .
Just don't be riding in with tha MORNING RUSH, brah!
in order 2 get a railfan window thats how its done ...
>>in order 2 get a railfan window thats how its done<<
Engineers usually operate with the cab door open in the off peak, but during peak rule says they must operate cab door closed. Now for real fun, shoot a video on the Atlantic Ave "el", portal to portal.
Bill "Newkirk"
yep ! usually they dont mind my camera ......not like the subway...
Salaam, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were having a great time! :-)
Glad to see that things are going better now.
yea !!
finally the Ronkonkoma line shot it BOTH WAYZ !!
man what a trip !! am & pm peak !!
on video and digital / stills ......& not a peep outa anyone !!
...........psssssst!..........they left me alone !!
woooooopeeee
Admittedly, at this point in time it's kind of like shooting fish in a barrel to go after the company, but to the Post's credit -- though it's not mentioned in the story -- they did have a report 3 1/2 years ago about the crappy quality control coming out of the Plattsburgh plant on the first of the R-142s.
The story also says the company's stock is down 73.5 percent from its high for the year. Not in Enron territory yet, but hovering around the level of Martha Stewart's Omnimedia in terms of plunge for 2002, at least. Anyway, it explains the recent layoffs and doesn't bode well for the future of Plattsburgh's operations.
Well, unlike Kawasaki who took over the old Otis plant in Yonkers and has the advantage of many machinists and qualified workers, Plattsburgh's legacy is refueling Air Force jets and loading nuclear bombs. New York's BIGGEST disaster insofar as manufacturing goes is the complete lack of technical education ... you can't build good things if you don't know HOW ... and I don't see anyone stepping up to the plate to CHANGE that.
Plattsburgh's legacy is refueling Air Force jets and loading nuclear bombs. That was the case before 1995 and if you were in the Air Force. Bombardier has been building cars for the Nyc subway since the 80's and they aren't going any where. The Bombardier Test department is filled only with people with a technical education, and the majority have a BA in ETE.the Kawasaki plant in yonkers is only a finishing plant where the train comes in and all they do is put the final pieces in.
Howdy guy ... first off, I'm an upstater ... I'm down between Schenectady and Smallbany ... understand that I think Bombardier of THUNDER BAY makes WONDERFUL railcars. I've ridden them in MANY cities. Aside from a few fires in Montreal (tiny ones) that were QUICKLY taken care of (and was a faulty design by STCUM) Bombardier makes really good stuff. Reality check - Bombardier's ***MAIN*** business was *JET AIRCRAFT!* How many times anybody here hear about a Bombardier jet crashing? Bonjour! :)
Knowing Bombardier like I do, there is only ONE possible explanation to explain the difference in DELIVERED quality between Thunder Bay and Plattsburgh. Somehow Plattsburgh just ain't CUTTING it. What have *I* personally seen as examples? Damned little - the ONE problem that I can grasp not actually working in car equipment is that if a pull apart is caused by a MISSING pin, I can appreciate that as a former electronics engineer and assembly line supervisor. Tells me that someone just didn't understand what they were doing.
In *MY* day, the people who DESIGNED the chit were sent to the floor once the final engineering plans, circuit board layouts, punch press panel-drilling templates set and line equipment "re-tooled" for a new product were taken care of, and sat there making sure that the folks who "insert tab into the crimping place" knew WHERE the "crimping place" (High Nihon 'crimping place' - ever read a SONY manual? YIKE!) was and only Nissei knew how to decode it and they weren't going to snitch. GEEZ.
Plain and simple, something's SERIOUSLY wrong with Plattsburgh. Same story sadly applies to our OWN local yahoo watering hole, GLENVILLE, just outside of Schenectady - a "has a militia" kinda place. That's SUPERSTEEL ...
Now to be fair, it isn't the PEOPLE'S fault. Ever take a good look at what New York State BOCES is trying to pull? They're not a "technical school" ... "GENERAL DIPLOMAS" are worth CRAP in New York State. People who pursue a TECHNICAL education in New York are spat upon by their very own TEACHERS and the administrations that FORCE this attitude onto the teachers. Learning SCIENCE is a BAD thing. And we wonder why the Chinese are kicking our butts for manufacturing? (sorry, laughing too hard to type at the cluelessness)
It's all about EDUCATION ... New York is NOT in that business. Technical Education graduates are looked down upon more than active "home relief" recipients ... what in heaven's NAME is their motivation for a kid to put themselves into THOSE shoes? "Duh, you're to dumb to graduate, here take SHOP." The BEST engineering minds in creation are THOSE who had to FIX what they designed. Think about it. Bad designed CAN'T be fixed. This is the kind of thing "general graduates" were able to do because they learned what NOT to do in lower engineering positions.
For what it's worth, I did the "ACADEMIC NYS Diploma" and went on to Fordham for a while. Then I realized that the blue color guys had more "soul" and "reality" than those black tied, "suit-covered anuses" (tm I forget who, but here's your tip of the hat anyway) ... but New York has no manufacturing JOBS because they have no MANUFACTURING JOB TRAINING! Duh!
H CARL MCCALL is who I'm voting for ... and I'm not enrolled in ANY party, so this is NOT a political ad. But EDUCATION in Plattsburgh might result in someone being taught how to TIGHTEN A FREAKING WRENCH!!! :)
responding... i do agree that bombardier is a wonderful railcar maker. they are acually better than kawasaki because i have seen it in there other railcars made for other cities also. they are reliable and refined. i am starting to be convinced that plattsburgh products are in bad shape. and it is not the products. it is the workers who build the products. i have said this before (don't know if y'all read my post) that 5 going on 6 years ago when Bombardier was building the R-142's at the time media( and i mean real media. not that FAKE ass New York Post)said that at the time they had to stop the assembly for a short time to correct some faulty wiring created by the workers who bombardier claimed was unexperienced and was forced to hire in plattsburgh. so thats why many of the products that came out of plattsburgh is said to be crap. my question is why didn't they hire qualified people to build the cars? also why didn't they build them in Auburn where the other Bombardier plant is?
Well, lest I get in trouble ***AGAIN*** here, it ***REALLY* is all POLITICS ... Senators and other various carniverous fruitbats, in order to seek re-election where they've SHAFTED their constituents and thus the numbers are "tight" provided the high hard one in exchange for largess in their OWN pasture at the expense of everyone else.
Unlike Star Trek, the POLITICAL saga is, "the needs of MY contributors outweigh the needs of everyone because *I* pocket this cash, so phark U" ... The *REAL* problem here is New York's own Anti-ADA from the "tax-cutters" ...who didn't cut *YOUR* taxes. Vote Republican, what's that SMELL?
EDUCATION is non-existent in this state. Look at how PATURKEY is making excuses for it in his bashing of McCall ... McCall realizes that New York can't manufacture a DEFENSE without some degree of EDUCATION. You can't BUILD stuff if you don't know *HOW* ... New York has no jobs because New York State Students can't TIE THEIR FRIGGING SHOES fer krissakes ... Bombardier's problems are *OUR* problems because Bombardier was FORCED by contract to hire people who can't count their BALLS and come up with the same number TWICE!
And we wonder ... Come ON! How hard IS it to have enough BRAINS to note that a damned SCREW is missing from a train coupler?!?!?!?
MADE IN NY, my ASS ... PLEASE give us better! VIETNAM can build train sets ... NY students aren't eben taught how to DROOL ... Thank you. Paturkey for those tax cuts that screwed our screwels ...
>>> it is not the products. it is the workers who build the products <<<
Unless there is something in the environment in that area that lowers IQ substantially, I would put the blame on management for poor training and motivation, rather than on the workers.
We saw that in the American automobile industry several years ago when Detroit cars were notorious for defects, but once imported cars with strict quality control started taking away sales, Detroit got its act together with the same workforce that was turning out crap before. The big change was a corporate decision to satisfy the customers rather than build at the cheapest cost. Perhaps Bombardier feels they have their only customer for this plant locked in, and therefore quality control is not that important.
Tom
"Unless there is something in the environment in that area that lowers IQ substantially, I would put the blame on management for poor training and motivation, rather than on the workers."
That's exactly right.
No. seriously, that AIN'T the case. New York State sold Bombardier "a bill of goods" in FALSELY claiming that there were "edumicated" workers available when there were NOT. Railcar Assembly REQUIRES people who know what a "micrometer" is, can actually MEASURE what millimeters ARE, and can show up for work without half a bag on.
New York State SHAFTED Bombardier, I know - we've tried to HIRE New York State employees in the past and couldn't find ANYONE competent enough around here to manufacture, drill, answer customer service enquiries, write CODE or do ANYTHING useful. Our UPSTATE company was SO desperate for QUALIFIED talent that we have a published now who hires in MINNESOTA! We couldn't find SHEET here ... in "Tech Valley" as Joe Bruno lovingly refers to our abandoned cola mine here ...
NOTHING ... we don't have *ANY* "New York employees" because we couldn't FIND any, and the tax screwage of running a software company in New York with the "State Insurance Department" and our laying off of "9,999 employees" a year ago (We work out of a building that can contain FIVE under the BEST of circumstances, but that didn't matter EITHER to Senator Joey who demanded cash in order to be left alone unless we moved to TROY) ... bottom line, ZERO employees in New York, 155 in Minnesota)
I really CAN believe why Bombardier assemblies SUCK. I wouldn't build sheet here either ... and I'm a ***LOYAL*** New Yorker. Fark.
"Railcar Assembly REQUIRES people who know what a "micrometer" is, can actually MEASURE what millimeters ARE, and can show up for work without half a bag on."
It's easier to find those people when you have a good eduation system, but surely you don't claim that Plattsburg residents are incapable of being taught these skills in company sponsored training programs? That would be saying not that Plattsburg residents are uneducated, but that they are all mentally deficient.
>>> That would be saying not that Plattsburg residents are uneducated, but that they are all mentally deficient. <<<
It sounds more like they lack a work ethic, which is a tougher thing to teach.
Tom
Hmm -- are we condemning a whole town as workshy now? Isn't anyone here old enough to remember what it was that sank Senator Muskie's presidential hopes?
Plattsburgh was PROUD to load a B52 with fuel in 12 minutes, was PROUD that not a single atomic bomb that fell on the tarmac actually WENT OFF and that not a single doublewide was lost in the liberation of the domino theory. Can they build RAILCARS? Hell, they couldn't even build a LOW-RIDE PICKUP TRUCK that didn't lean to one side or the other owing to improper connecting of hydraulic hoses. BEEN THERE, drunk that ... 'nuff said. WPTR-TV rulez ... when the transmitter works. :(
I thought Channel 5 up there was WPTZ. Don't they focus more on Burlington and Vermont anyway? Guess there's not much to report on up in the North Country. I had a Journalism professor at UConn who anchored the news up there in the 80s.
See, I don't dislike Bombardier itself, but I am frustrated as hell because the R142s and Acela Express trains have had so much trouble. They do build a lot of products all over the world. Trams in Vienna, South London, Stockholm and Kassel, Germany. The Talent DMU, which you can find as close as Ottawa and also all over Germany as well as Norway. The Oresund train which connects Denmark and Sweden. There's a lot. If everything they built was crap, they wouldn't be in business. You're right, Selkirk, Albany is to blame for the shoddy reliability of the R142s.
Yes, you're right. Channel 5 is WPTZ. Brain cramp at the time of posting. And yes, the problems up there are a statewide problem of nonexistent technical education. That's the reason why no manufacturer with any brains would set up shop in this state without the politicos holding a gun to their head. :(
But from what I'm hearing, Boston's new Blue Line cars will be assembled in Elmira by Siemens. I hope they do well. MBTA has had enough problems with the Breda Type 8 cars on the Green Line (which AFAIK, were not built in New York State).
BTW, Plattsburgh's channel 5 wasn't the first WPTZ. KYW-3 in Philadelphia, I believe, was.
Absolutely correct ... channel 3 started out as W3XE in 1932, became WPTZ in 1941 under a commercial license, NBC bought and owned it in 1956, making it WRCV. Westinghouse/Group W made it KYW in 1965. As to Elmira, we'll see ... there was at least prior manufacturing there as was the case in Schenectady where SuperSteel is. Plattsburgh had no such industrial history other than the Air Force Base ...
>>> Plattsburgh had no such industrial history other than the Air Force Base ... <<<
Auto manufacturers locating in Tennessee and other southern states have shown that a location with an industrial history is not necessary for success. I think the Bombardier Plattsburgh problem lies elsewhere.
Tom
Southern states did have one advantage though, they didn't deny students who were interested or inclined access to "shop" classes. New York's "Regents" (doesn't THAT say something right there) doesn't want ANY students going for industrial education. It may not be the MAJOR factor in the problem, but it's certainly ONE of them ...
"Southern states did have one advantage though, they didn't deny students who were interested or inclined access to "shop" classes."
I don't see why shop classes in high school or any other type of formal vocational training are required to get competent factory workers. If a company needs trained workers, they can hire people with reasonable brains and good attitudes and TRAIN THEM THEMSELVES.
Perhaps Plattsburgh doesn't have enough people with good attitudes. Maybe working for the Air Force was cushy and now they can't adjust to private employment. Or perhaps Bombardier management in Plattsburgh is a bunch of arrogant jerks who don't feel that they should need to train their workers, because in Montreal they have a fine supply of trained workers.
But you just can't blame the whole mess on bad high school educations.
Howdy ... I wasn't blaming the educational issue for being the whole problem, merely stating that it's a part of it. I agree that companies need to train employees for the specialties they will do, but at least a basic concept does help. Dunno what it is about Plattsburgh, but there would definitely seem to be a problem that needs some work.
But I know from my own experience over the years trying to hire up technical people for manufacturing positions, folks straight out of the military were about the only folks we saw that knew which end of a drill bit should be pointing out. I kid you not. :(
>>> Yes, you're right. Channel 5 is WPTZ <<<
Do they promote it as W-Putz? :-)
Tom
LOL! No, I think they call it "Newschannel 5" or "NBC-5".
We've gone by their facilities several times - it's RIGHT on the Oliver Northway as you blow through the 'burgh ... I think they're still playing the "Newschannel" bit but I watch 5 from NYC instead. Their signal is a bit "lacking" down here. We DID watch it up in Montreal though. Heh. But no, they haven't come up with that as a slogan yet. Someone might suggest it. :)
Like *ALL* of upstate, they're getting shafted in dollars for EDUCATION ... New York State now LEADS the nation in the amount of dollsars diverted for "private commercial magent school makers" at the expense of LIBRARY funds ... New York State has a thing called "BOCES" (look it up) which is responsible for TECHNICAL education, but instead is a lessor of facilities than an educational institution.
Wonder why there's no manufacturing jobs? Why, it's because there is ***NO*** manufacturing education. WHAT frigging jobs? For WHO? Look it up. New York ***SUCKS*** for technical education.
GI BILL is DEAD ... that was the LAST attempt. Got us LOTS of machinists, draftspeople, engineers, etc. That was over 30 years ago. We're all MBA's these days and financial analysts. 'nuff said, if you haven't gotten your 201k statement yet, you will ... BEFORE the elections. Check out your statement, then vote.
Tom? I'd agree with you in general principle, but in UPSTATE New York, education is about as advanced as 19th century hostels. Most school districts UPSTATE haven't had the fund to buy new library books for schools since the 1950's ... NO JOKE!
Padre Mario stared to change that, but Bruno and his clowns would rather spend SCHOOL MONEY on Amtrak stations, "A" league ball parks (at MILLIONS a toss) rather than provide libraries with BOOKS. (they'd only get BURNED ANYWAY) ... our Liberal Republican leaders would rather give AMEX tax cuts than provide TRAINED workers to Bombardier. I wish folks would realize that upstate schools are in WORSE shape than Florida or Mississippi. At least THOSE are declared disasters. UPSTATE, in "Tech Valley" where the new "high tech jobs" are CEMENT PLANTS (!!!!!!) the average worker can't READ, much less figure out what tool goes on a phillips nut.
Even *HAITI* is more technologically educated than NEW YORK ... no *WONDER* the only jobs Paturkey can come up with are newspaper recycling, cement MINING plants and maybe a hi-tech job in recycling. John Faso, his butt-buddy is running for comptroller. Enron would be GODSEND here ... we're in SERIOUS doo with what passes for "skool" up here ...
Why can't BOMBARDIER build trains? Because they're made by MORONS, government SANCTIONED morons and what we have is the BEST that republican tax cut schooling can provide.
You GET what you pay for. Ask what's LEFT of the teachers.
r142tech: you should meet some of Bombardiers personel on site. They have degrees in 'Yah Mon, we fix your train real good.' Don't know mechanical basics, have no concept of tensile stregnth and hardware marking, just follow orders. On the other hand, NYCTA SubSchool September 17th classmates are engineers/technicians/change oil and brakes/make trains go/speak English. What Bombardier hired to assemble the trainsets are unskilled laborers...the proof is already in the pudding...and TA has to eat it...and we have to clean up the remains. Bombardier lost the R-160 contracts for definite reasons, they think they'll have their bloodied hands into the project...and AirTrain is just one example of the incompetence.
Pray for continued healing of the Car Inspectors injured in the R-110 battery box explosion. Car Inspectors do their best to insure the safety of the riding public...what we do not have is control of the materiels Bombardier used in the R142 assembly process. CI Peter
The LIRR/MNRR M-7's are the last chance for Bombardier to save themselves. If the M-7 turns out to be a lemon, then Bombardier will be tarred and feathered !
Bill "Newkirk"
Agreed, especially as far as Plattsburgh goes. Bombardier probably lost at least part of the R-160 order because of the R-142 foul-ups, and according to Train Dude's recent posting, the next replacment cars won't be due for arrival until 2012 at the earliest when the R-44s are scheduled to go bye-bye. That's a long time to have a lot of people up there twiddling their thumbs...
Nah, the government will have them back to testing bombs with hammers again if Bombardier dries up. :)
bombardier will be back. they will never dry up because their products are always in popular demand by other transit agencies. they are also the largest in the world, and they are the only company besides alstom that can meet the needs of mta in terms of quantity in building rail equipment. do you ever notice that other companies never take up or never get big orders with the MTA?
Other companies occasionally bid on NYC subway car orders. CAF bid on the R-142 or R-143 order (I forget which -- probably R-142) but was rejected because at the time it did not have enough experience in building stainless steel car shells (CAF's WMATA cars had not yet been built).
David
Haven't I read on this board that New York State requires that car suppliers must assemble the cars within the state? If so, other suppliers may be deterred from seeking NYCT business because they do not have easy access to assembly facilities in the state. NYC is the biggest subway-car market in the USA, but these companies operate all over the world, and so some may feel that it isn't worth the effort of setting up arrangements in NYS. And is the reason Bombardier chose Plattsburgh (despite the lack of a suitable engineering tradition there) because it is in NY state but quite near the Canadian border, nearer to Bombardier's home sites? A friend of mine who once taught at SUNY Plattsburgh said that it was a much shorter journey to Montreal than to NYC for him.
Cheers! No, the actual legal trickery is a "points credit" ... the way the "Made in No Joke" programme works, an entity wishing to glob the contract would open up a FAKE factory in NoYuk, hire some local bowlers, hand them some titles and then file, based on the real estate lease for a facility for the village idiots, for an "enterprise zone" a false statement alledging public benefit. At this point, Governor Paturkey's office would have announced "New Jobs for New York" whereupon, he'd cut a ribbon, actually *deign* to spend a damnable day in Smallbany (where, by the way for those of you repubs into the "law is the law") the GOVERNOR of the state of New York is EXPECTED to reside in the GOVERNOR'S MANSION (I've been in it OFTEN) for his term.
OUR OWN GOOBERNOR ("George Paturkey puts the "Goober" back into "Gubernatorial") will NOT!!! live where the governor should be living (and EVERY GOVERNOR EXCEPT PATURKEY has lived in the official residence) ...
For those "out of state" who don't quite get it, lemme put it THIS way ... GEORGE ELMER PATAKI (real name, Post didn't print, I understand) has ***NEVER*** lived in the Goober's mansion in EIGHT YEARS! It's like Shrub REFUSING TO LIVE INTHE WHITE HOUSE! OK, it's OK for Dick CHENEY to dump in his DEPENDS and toddle off to a "secure location" but for KRISSAKES, Who in their right ***MIND*** would bomb ALBANY?!?! Doing so would get NYS government to shut down. That'd be a ***FAVOR***! No terrorist would make us CHEER like that! :)
ANYWAY ... YES, there were "pay no tax, everyone's a winner!" INCENTIVES from Jerry Solomon (our officially, now dead congressfish - "I'll have him HORSEWHIPPED," New York's own answer to Jesse Helms) for Bombardier to move into a cancelled US Air Force Base (one of our BIGGEST) and build choochoos there. Whoops.
Once again, I explain with EXTREME sympathy for the PEOPLE in Plattsburgh (I pay UPSTATE taxes too!) that what the job REQUIRES for "new tech" the TRAINING y'all GOT was what your buddies up north refer to as a "hosing" ... but y'all know that and understand that a JOB is better than NO job ... But because you got SCREWED by the DEMS and the REPUBS (Padre Cuomo and Paturkey) you do NOT have the skills to do this weird nonsense or are just too damned depressed by what the red states are doing or the paycheck Bombardier pays compared to what the USAF paid for "comparable wages." "Bottom line," you got screwed by your congressfish and your locals. Yeah, news. :)
Folks need to be properly EDUCATED (without getting their "paychex" screwed) ... and "Technical education" means "nigger" in THIS state. :(
>>> OUR OWN GOOBERNOR ("George Paturkey puts the "Goober" back into "Gubernatorial") will NOT!!! live where the governor should be living (and EVERY GOVERNOR EXCEPT PATURKEY has lived in the official residence) <<<
Why has he chosen not to live in the official residence? There is precedence for the decision. Former California Governor Jerry Brown (aka Governor Moonbeam) refused to inhabit the Gubernatorial Imperial Palace built by his Republican predecessor, and chose to live in an apartment in Sacramento.
Tom
Yep ... only PROVES our Paturkey's a liberal ... if what's good for "Governor Moonbeam" is good enough for OURS, maybe we need Golisano or better yet, Carl McCall (an actual FINANCIAL person who HASN'T cooked the books) might be a wiser choice. Then again, this is New York with a RICH history of re-electing MORONS every chance possible. And we WONDER why we're in the toilet? :)
But NO, Paturkey's NEVER lived in the "WHITE HOUSE" ... Dick Cheney woule be PROUD ... talk about BEDWETTERS ... any time there's a potential nasty, Dick Cheney's in the fetal position under the couch.
You'd THINK after 9/11, Paturkey would PROUDLY occupy the official housing of the Governor. Nope ... he's CHICKEN ... might get "attacked" ... Chickensheet elephant ... The REST of us "upstaters" actually POSSESS gonads. Not Paturkey ... "oooo! I might get BOMBED! ... Attacking Albany would do the rest of the state a FAVOR ... nobody's gonna do us a FAVOR if they're "terrist-type individuals."
Former Gov. Whitman didn't live in the official NJ mansion either... of course, that was partly because the official one WASN'T nearly as convenient to Trenton as her own home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yeah... considering that fact that the New York Post isn't a real newspaper
when the R-142's came in. both types caused nasty problems. of course the Kawasaki was the first to enter service, but it did have the same problems as the Bombardier version, minus the bad breaks. some of what i recalled i heard were faulty doors, brakes getting stuck, things falling from the carriage and trucks, power loss, tripping PA system and sometimes they were unable to leave the yard because of a problem. now that they are all in service they run fine but from what noticed that the Bombardier versions last longer in service than the Kawasakis. my question is if Bombardier bashing is necessary why isn't Kawasaki getting bashed since it performed identically in its debut? please respond someone. i really need clarification.
Bombardier does deserve criticism for its lack of quality control.
But there's also a lot of Bombardier-bashing which is not really Bombardier-bashing. It's posting from the subway equivalent of a "choo-choo" crowd who wax nostalgic about the Redbirds.
Subtalk does tendto attract this crowd more than other chat sites. That's fine, all are welcome, but when you read, understand the context.
>>when the R-142's came in. both types caused nasty problems. of course the Kawasaki was the first to enter service, but it did have the same problems as the Bombardier version, minus the bad breaks. some of what i recalled i heard were faulty doors, brakes getting stuck, things falling from the carriage and trucks, power loss, tripping PA system and sometimes they were unable to leave the yard because of a problem. now that they are all in service they run fine but from what noticed that the Bombardier versions last longer in service than the Kawasakis. my question is if Bombardier bashing is necessary why isn't Kawasaki getting bashed since it performed identically in its debut? please respond someone. i really need clarification.<<
Thats a good question. Even though I do remember seeing Kawasaki get bashed a few times. Well, unlike Bombarider, Kawasaki did manage to fix the problem when a new set of trains came out. That's also why more Americans buy foreign cars.
thanks alot. however about the foreign cars, they don't sell as much because they are only allowed to have a certain amount in the US and they build less amounts than the domestic. so technically they still sell less.
We all hear lately that the city's finances are in bad shape. What with the condition of the local and national economy, the aftereffects of September 11th, and ever-increasing demands on public money, the coffers have gotten rather bare. Transit fare increases, nearly unthinkable just a couple of years ago, aren't so unthinkable anymore. And it's doubtful that the city's going to be able to chip in much if anything toward major infrastructure projects.
Something I saw today made me think long and hard about the city's financial predicament. Specifically, some (though surely not all) of its problems are pretty much self-inflicted. What brought about this realization was a flyer at the deli near my job advertising memberships in the nearby Carmine Recreation Center. Located at the corner of Varick and Clarkson streets, the city-owned Center features, according to the flyer, indoor and outdoor pools, a gymnasium, racquetball courts, and a fitness center - in other words, it sounds like a very well-equipped facility.
I'm a member of a gym near my house in Suffolk County. It's a pretty bare-bones sort of place, located in a strip mall and devoid of stuff like pools or racquetball courts. Basically it just has weights and exercise equipment, which is all that I really want and use. Moreover, it's located almost 60 miles east of Manhattan, in an area that, while growing rapidly in recent years, has nothing approaching NYC-style density. It costs $43 per month, which is less than most other gyms in the area and surely much less than what a facility in Manhattan would charge.
And now for the punch line. According to the flyer, memberships in the Carmine center cost $46 per year, with seniors paying only $10 and kids paying nothing. It isn't hard to figure out that the city could be charging a lot more and still pricing memberships competitively. Instead, it's basically giving away memberships, which of course makes the center a drain on the taxpayers, and is creating unfair competition with private gyms. I wouldn't object to free or low-cost memberships for lower-income people, but the Carmine center's giveaway rates are available to everyone no matter how affluent. You can call this your tax dollars (not) at work. Next time the city cries poormouth, and starts hinting at a fare increase, think of this.
I hope no one in Congress or the NY State government who dislikes New York City gets wind of this.
I hope they do.
Otherwise nobody will ever put a stop to this nonsense.
Gee, I thought providing services that everyone can take advantage of was a more or less basic function of government. I hear that Nassau county does a wonderful job of providing its citizens with parks, beachs and the like that are second to none. Wasnt't the US Golf Open recently played on the Black Course in Nassau? I'm not a golfer but I've read in several places that the Black course is perhaps the finest public course in the country if not the world, it is as good or better than many country clubs. Yes, Nassau county's finances make NYC's look rosy, but I seldom hear any calls for Nassau to sell off the Black course. This is also an example of unfair competition with private country clubs.
I'm not advocating governments building and operating golf courses as a rule, the upkeep of even a low to moderate quality course is enormous. But NYC does have a handful of courses and in a city of over 8 million people that does allow for recreational oppurtunities many city residents might otherwise never get.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look at any governments expeditures, you will find a good number of items that could be called into question. But I would tend to feel that a recreation center like the one you mentioned seems like a good idea. The pools may seem extravegent, but the city owns and operates MANY pools aroud the city, they have been providing a great service since my mother was a little girl in the 1920's. You have a valid point about low income people benefiting, but I would be hesitant to make memebership income dependent. Those with cash most likely won't want to mingle with the rif-raf and will still go to private gyms, so why make it harder for those who can really benefit? And making it a low income type of place would add a stigma to it. I can just see a kid whose parents can't afford a private gym getting it from his fellow students "Oh, you have to go to poor folks place, we're going to Club Knock Yourself Out!"
I know I'm what some would call "hopelessly liberal" but if we applied your theory to the transit system (I'm getting this back on topic), the fare would also be income dependent. If you make less than $x,000 per year you get the Lead Metro Card, $1.25 per ride; between $x,000 and $y,000 you get the Tin Metro Card, $1.50 per ride; between $y,000 and $z,000 you get the bronze Metro Card, $1.75 per ride; between $z,000 and $r,000 you get the silver Metro Card, $2.00 per ride; and those above $r,000 per year you get the gold metro card, $3.50 per ride.
So if I'm paying already more to subsidize transit, I'll have to pay more again to use it?
Also what would be the costs of administering this program?
I agree with you 100%.
A basic function of a democratic government is to take care of its people and provide services. When there is a $100m + budget deficit,a fitness center isn't going to knock even a slight dent into it. This gym is in a high-density area, probably serves a helluva lot more people than a Suffolk one, and as long as they cover at least some of their expenses, its economical. A fitness center will NOT create that much of a crunch in competition between private gyms. There are millions of people living in this city, plenty of business to go around.
A basic function of a democratic goverment is rule by the masses. That's what democratic means.
Going to a gym is not a right. It isn't even neccessary for physical fitness. A gym is completely a luxury item and as such shouldn't be subsidized for ANY income level. Where will it end? Will a Lexus for everyone eventually be considered a necessary service? What about all the kids that have to deal with the stigma of having their parents pick them up from school in a poor folks car while their friends get driven in the Nose-in-the air Turbo V6?
I understand that children have no control over the success or lack thereof of their parents, so that's why there are public schools and the like, but for adults, people should not be rewarded for lazier and stupider.
If a person is poor because of an inability to work as a result of an unfortunate accident, or that evil bitch Mother Nature with her droughts and floods and poison monkeys, then a fair society helps that person out.
Here's a thought...
If you are that unhappy about it, start writing your City Council and elected officials instead of whining about it here.
start writing your City Council and elected officials
I figure I can get much farther by becoming pen-pals with a Ward's Island inmate.
Ceirtainly the conversations would be higher intellectually.
"I figure I can get much farther by becoming pen-pals with a Ward's Island inmate. "
If the city's in trouble, that is why.
"Ceirtainly the conversations would be higher intellectually."
More intellectual than what you just posted?
You're right, maybe you should just stick to Subtalk. You'll cause a lot less damage that way; and they'll have that much more time to read my letters instead . :0)
"I figure I can get much farther by becoming pen-pals with a Ward's Island inmate."
If the city's in trouble, that is why.
So you agree that city council members aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the bulb box. There are some exceptions though. I don't think my current councilmember is one of them. I voted against him in both the primary and the general election because in the voter guide, he was absolutely proud of the fact that he helped stop a shopping center near Flatlands Avenue.
Then the local canary carpet had an article in which he was fighting against a proposed KFC that was supposed to (and will) replace a blighted abandoned gas station.
A few years back, the City Council voted down (with one dissenting vote) a proposal to allow superstores in rundown industrial districts. All the while, people go shopping in the suburbs taking their $ with them, or they have no car and are stuck using dirty, overpriced and understocked local stores.
What we need is not to send letters to council members' offices where they will go straight from the inbox to the trash can, because these people have their mind made up. We need regime change in City Hall.
In 2001, there was regime change, but again all of these were people who were annointed by their local Democratic (or in Staten Island, Republican) Committee because they gave blowjobs to the right people.
Maybe if we can convince people to appreciate their right to vote, and be smarter voters, then the Great Council of Idiots will cease to represent the rights of a reactionary minority and instead represent the rights of REAL PEOPLE.
Then the city can avoid being in fiscal crises every so often and still afford to spend on recreational facilities (but if there are waiting lists for things, then they are underpriced and that's wrong).
"Maybe if we can convince people to appreciate their right to vote, and be smarter voters, then the Great Council of Idiots will cease to represent the rights of a reactionary minority and instead represent the rights of REAL PEOPLE."
Are you saying that this so-called "reactionary minority" isn't as human as everyone else?
Regardless of whether the letter ends up in the trashcan at City Hall, you could be writing letter to the editors of the various New York newspapers. They are read by a lot of people.
The only people who have a right to complain are the people who put an effort into trying to change things. If you sit back and don't do a damn thing to try to change it, you should shut your mouth. Let's change the hypocrisy in American attitudes before we change how the city funds public recreation facilities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you look at any governments expeditures, you will find a good number of items that could be called into question. But I would tend to feel that a recreation center like the one you mentioned seems like a good idea. The pools may seem extravegent, but the city owns and operates MANY pools aroud the city, they have been providing a great service since my mother was a little girl in the 1920's. You have a valid point about low income people benefiting, but I would be hesitant to make memebership income dependent. Those with cash most likely won't want to mingle with the rif-raf and will still go to private gyms, so why make it harder for those who can really benefit? And making it a low income type of place would add a stigma to it.
I agree that the provision of park and recreational facilities is a valid governmental function. It's the extent of the facilities that makes a difference, however. Parks, ballfields, playgrounds, and yes municipal pools are one thing. What the city's doing with the Carmine center, and I suspect other, similar facilities elsewhere, is providing what appears from the promotional materials to be a fully equipped fitness facility comparable to private gyms. While there's no obvious dividing line between what's acceptable and what's excessive, I have no trouble in saying that the Carmine center is definitely over the line no matter how fuzzy that line may be. Just the fact that the city charges for membership, albeit a nominal sum, means that it considers the center to be something more than an ordinary facility within the domain of Parks & Recreation. If the city is going to provide a facility of that sort, it should be charging something approximating market rates, at least for those with the means to pay. By the way, I understand your point about the "stigma" that a sliding fee scale could produce, and I don't have any magic answers. That remains a problem.
Getting back on topic, I do not object to governmental funding of transit, at least not at reasonable levels. Transit is a vital function, especially in New York, not a luxury like fitness centers, and there is no private-sector competition.
Level subway fares do what they've always done in NY, which is get everybody on the subway. The extra $$$ from the rich comes from the public transit subsidy, which comes from progressive taxes. The rich benefit by having more room on the streets to ride taxis, and having enough room to build this incredible place in the first place. Much as we will always argue about a fair fare, it should be a single fare.
The facts you have provided here do not say anything about the city's financial decision. It is the job of government to provide some services independant of their raw $ profitability. To make your post carry more weight you need to find out how much the gym covers its operating costs and how busy it is. Ideally, the guy should openate AT capacity. If the gym is over capacity it should raise its rates. If it is under capacity it should lower its rates. If it is clear that few people want to use the gym it should close. The goal of the gym is not to make money, but to allow the largest possible subset of the citizens the ability to obtain physical fitness. The city has previously decided that physical fittness is worth an expenditure of money and this decision is perfectly justifiable.
The only two possible valid complaints is that nobody uses it even at the low prices or too many people use it and use it rationed by a waitlist or queue. For the former the facility needs either improved management or to be shut down. For the latter the membership rates need to be raised until demand goes down or capacity needs to be expanded (or both).
"the city-owned Center features, according to the flyer, indoor and outdoor pools, a gymnasium, racquetball courts, and a fitness center"
The contention is that this facility is going beyond what city government and park districts normally provides. While I don't know New York's park system, I can compare this supposedly lavish facility to what is routinely provided by the Chicago Park District, with which I *am* familiar.
Is it the outdoor pools that are excessive? No, CPD has plenty of those. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/4CDC3F39-61F0-4CE7-9C67-F710122F9E56*Swimming%20Outdoor%20Facilities/RequestTimeout/500
Must be the indoor pools, right? Oops, CPD's got lots of those too. Calls the older ones natatoria, but same difference. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/C4DA66E8-57BC-4DFE-98C1-5ED62640EF80*Swimming%20Indoor%20Facilities/RequestTimeout/500
So it must be the gymnasium. Well, looky here, CPD has lots of those too. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/FC3A6ABD-5F7D-4C1B-B93F-F6657481DDB1*Gyms/RequestTimeout/500
Gotta be the fitness centers. Nope. http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.results/fac_id/A375F316-6BE4-4B91-9C56-3E0F26D4A0CC*Fitness%20Centers/RequestTimeout/500
Surely, it must be the racquetball courts? Oh, my. You're right. No separate listing for Chicago Park District racquetball courts. Tennis courts, but no racquetball courts. I guess you're right, this facility goes substantially above and beyond the traditional public park recreational facility.
That doesn't prove that New York's public recreation facilities aren't overbloated, it only proves that Chicago is in the same bloat camp as New York.
New York City spends vastly less, as a share of it's residents' personal income, on parks, recreation, and culture, than the national average. Most New Yorkers don't get hardly anything in these categories that they don't pay for, in donations or fees.
Mr. Rosa has caught on to one of the very good deals for insiders that proliferate in NYC. Heck, some kids even get an education in the NYC public schools. But you have to know something, or someone, and know how to work the system.
Small deals in categories where the city spends less than average overall, like schools and parks, are unjust but not the reason why the city is going broke. Big deals in categories where the city spends more than average, like health care, housing, and pensions, is the reason.
Small deals in categories where the city spends less than average overall, like schools and parks, are unjust but not the reason why the city is going broke. Big deals in categories where the city spends more than average, like health care, housing, and pensions, is the reason.
Considering 1199's influence over city and state politics, don't expect to see a change in that pattern anytime soon. I got a few laughs about the way Paturkey is now best bosom buddies with Dennis Rivera. Blecch!
The lawyer for the couple actually has a point here when he says that at least they didn't try to drive home drunk. The downside, of course, is that since there are no back seats in M-1s or M-3s, they apparently didn't have much of choice on where to go when the urge to merge hit (if they had been in one of the lower berths on one of the double deckers it might have solved this problem...).
Meanwhile, the lawyer for the brother said, "He was asleep on the train. He was awakened by police," and promptly arrested. Court testimony on this ought to be interesting.
"The lawyer for the couple actually has a point here when he says that at least they didn't try to drive home drunk."
And they weren't charged with DUI, which would demand a stiffer penalty than they are facing now.
I think stiffness was part of the trouble.
8-)
I'll make a note of that. They didn't drive therefore they're responsible citizens who are entitled to turn a railroad car into a motel room.
Lawyers have too much free time.
Charges should be dropped. It was not a church. It was not in view of children. Come on, these are hardly criminals.
Charges should be dropped. It was not a church. It was not in view of children. Come on, these are hardly criminals.
Which just proves there are no standards anymore. No, nor Triplexes either.
Dang! Got this puppy back on topic.
Which just proves there are no standards anymore. No, nor Triplexes either.
Yeah, BMT Standards were retired before I was even born.
AEM7
I agree.....
I used to ride the LIRR back int he 1960's....people wre a little more conservative then. And in those days on the late trains out of NYC you'd see sex taking place.
Usually with the train conductor!!!!
Bah, deserving punishment would have been if someone had a camcorder, and an internet connection.
Whatever the legal system could dish out, having 1/2 the world see you have drunken sex on a train would be worse. Especially if the 'equipment' was IRT sized, not BMT sized ;)
Maybe the LIRR needs to put security cameras on all their new M-7 cars, just in case such an emergency situation arises again (yea, pun intended).
Of course, if hubby's "equipment" turned out to be the size of a Triplex, they could probably market the video over the Internet like the Pamela Anderson-Tommy Lee tape.
Yeah, but...
everyone talks about seeing triplexes, being on triplexes, etc. but really, you just don't see a triplex that often these days...
While "Triplex" equipment is certainly desirable, the ultimate certainly would have been a "Multi-Section!"
On a rush hour Lex IRT train, you could have sex and people four feet away would'nt even be aware of it.
On a rush hour Lex IRT train, you could have sex and people four feet away would'nt even be aware of it.
On a Lex rush hour train, one of the parties involved in the act, may not be aware that they were a part of it......
LOL!
Leave it to the Post to provide us details on the exact acts that were performed on this 6:05am train ....
--Mark
It sold papers, didn't it? Made (nearly) everyone here look, right? Papers that pander to the majority mindset don't have to follow the rules. :)
Just think how many people here clicked on the link AFTER they found out it gave a rundown of the details of what happened on the train......
And we wonder why Tom Cruise has become a political pundit. :)
How fast was the train going?
Do the Suspects qualify for membership in the mile-a-minute club?
Will SelkirkTMO present the awards if they do?
avid
Hey! HEY! HEY! Either *I* get some, or NOBODY gets some. Decision of the judges may need another hearing before final. Moo. :)
A trip to the "crime scene", a re-enactment of the alledged crime!
The truth will out!
avid
>>> How fast was the train going?
Do the Suspects qualify for membership in the mile-a-minute club? <<<
Uh, the mile a minute club does not refer to the speed of the train. :-)
Tom
Hahahahah ... that's it ... thanks for the finale, Selkirk end da night shift HERE ... THANKS! Hahahaha ...
This is a special case where it applies to both forms of motion.
Remeber Newtons fifth law of motion
"Two bodies in motion are subject to A REST if caught by the FORCE."
avid
NYC SUBWAY STATION SIGNS AND PILLAR MARKERS
Browse now to http://www.ebay.com and enter
"Subway Signs" in the search prompter....... ahhh!
Your point is?
those are some nifty signs and I think some of us
collectors and antiquers here might just
be interested...
Ok, did that, now what?
All Categories0 items found for "Subway Signs"
My bad so bad...
Drop the last 'S'..
All Categories
41 items found for Subway Sign
Good catch, Notch!!
Most of that stuff can be purchased at the Transit Museum gift shops.
There's a sucker born every minute, I guess.
Heya Mitch,
TM gift shops SELDOMLY have car number plates out...
Each time I go seeking one, the staff responds as if
I just asked them for a tooth extraction... It takes
MUCH to get them to even 'THINK' of looking in the
back room there.... eeesh!!
THESE here are station pillar signs... Can ye specify
precisely WHERE you've seen them at the GCT Shoppe?
At $24.99 I didn't say I'd bid on 'em... but those
among us with the thick wallets may have liked 2 know.
Thanks for barkin'! :)
my Good Deed done...
I need something to read this week. I'm not taking my car to work anymore. Gas, TOLLS, depreciation of auto, birds shitting on my car at nearly every parking facility-just not worth it. So I'm going to take the subway to and from work everyday. But I need some good reading to pass the time.
So I'm looking for books on the history of the NYC Subways. Any recommendations?
Under the Streets of Gotham by Brian Cudahy is an excellent book. It is probally out of print now, but is available at several libraries. You may want to try Amazon Books, as they can get used books (I used this to buy Change at Park Street Under as a used book).
Correction, the book is Under the Sidewalks of New York. If you go to www.metropla.net under New York City, there are several direct links to NYC subway books to purchase.
Hey, wait a second, if you're going to mention that there are direct links to buy books from a web site please mention that you can do the same thing from the Subway Bibliography right here on nycsubway.org.
WELCOME BACK, DAVE!!!!!!!
Which cat had YOUR tongue????
Twas' gettin a tad bit chilly uppa in here!!!!
:)
How about "They Moved the Millions" by Ed Davis, Sr. (known to some as BIGEDIRTMANL). It was written in the early 80's by Davis, who retired as a Motorman with NYCTA. He moved to Montana and became a Burlington-Northern Engineer for some years after that. He revised his book about 10 years later when he returned to NYC and found that graffiti was now almost non-existant as well as the R-62 cars were common on the A Division, and the R-68 was a new car to him.
It's 'self-published' with many b&w photos throughout. However, it is hard to find (the Transit Museum does NOT carry it). Best bet is call the Red Cabboose and see if they may have a copy laying around. Shoreline Trolley Museum also has them in stock.
Great book!
Big Ed may still have autographed copies available for sale.
Where is Big Ed anyway? Haven't heard from him in months. He was a great E-mail buddy of mine, but I never knew he wrote a book. I'm going to try and get it.
There is also a great new book called "NYC Trolleys in Color". Great shots of TARS, BRT / B & QT in Brooklyn and it even covers the SBK, too. The transit museum had it for $60.00 (pricey) but Kevin T. Farrell (www.trainbooks.com) was selling it for $48.00 at the King of Prussia show 2 weeks ago, so shop around.
--Mark
TRAINS Nov. 2002 claimed on p.13 that "roof panels on trailing power cars were flying off". So it isn't Amtrak's shoddy maintenance, it's a quick fix to a potential safety issue.
Wonderful Bombardier trainsets.
Over to you, AcelaExpress2005BitsFlyingOffTheBackOfTheTruck
AEM7
I would like to thank all of the subtalkers who gave me lots of good advice about railfanning the DC subway and tipped me off about the not so wonderful hotel I had originally selected. I'm off on the 11:35 Amtrak from NYC to Washington tomorrow morning.
Now, one final request for advice. I'm not much of a photographer, but I plan to be taking pictures on my trip. I'll be using your very basic 35 mm point and shoot camera. If I want to take pictures of the subway in DC (is that ok with no flash? I'm not looking to become Salaam II), what speed film should I use ASA 400, 800? I remeber from years ago, 400 would usually allow for decent indoor pictures without a flash. If I go with 800, how will that effect my outdoor pictures? Is 400 a good all around compromise? Or does that present outdoor problems in sunlight? I plan to be shooting mostly outdoors when I get to my destination (not to mention a lot of outdoor stuff in DC).
Again thanks for all your input! It is greatly appreciated.
>>>>If I want to take pictures of the subway in DC ....<<<<
I'd be careful with them. Remember, those are the same paranoid SOBs that asked Dave to remove the track maps of their system from this site. Ask first.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hear you on that!
That's why I asked the question here, I was hoping to get some information from someone who lives in the area or has been there recently. I would like to get some pictures, but I'm looking to spend a few days in Washington and West Virginia, not the DC Jail.
BTW The Colorado Railcar DMU will be in town this week (3-6 Oct 2002) for the Rail Volution meeting. Most likely it will be on display in Union Station.
Railway Age has a meeting on 16 Oct and the DMU will be back in DC again.
The Colorado Railcar Site said only 5 Oct (Saturday), so it may be only one day.
Found THIS info on their website.
Peace,
ANDEE
I haven't had any trouble from them since 9/11. I actually think more passengers have questioned what I was doing as opposed to employees.
I would strongly recommend using 800. Your outdoor pictures will come out fine, perhaps just slightly grainy. You're right that 400 will allow for normal indoor photography without flash, but (a) subway stations are generally darker than the typical indoors, and WMATA is certainly no exception, and (b) most indoor photography is not of fast-moving trains. Go with 800. I used 400 in Washington and I got gems like this one:
If you need film, stop by B&H on your way out of town. It's on 9th between 33rd and 34th and you'll find 36-exposure rolls of 800 for $3 (or of 400 for $2). Adorama has the same prices, but it's on 18th between 6th and 5th -- a bit less convenient to Penn. (Keep in mind that B&H has an elaborate multistep checkout process, so leave a few extra minutes. If you happen to be in the neighborhood, Adorama's quicker.)
I like the effect of that photo, Dave!
Even if you didn't accomplish what you had intended, you have a neat photo there, worth displaying.
David,
Thanks for the info. I'll definately get the 800 and the price at B&H sounds very good. I'll make the trip on my way to Penn tomorrow AM..
Piggo
Thanks David for solving a photography dilemma that I've been pondering for the past couple of days.
On October 11, I'll be heading north to Canada for picture taking of the buses & trains. I was wondering the difference between 400 & 800. So David, if I read your post correctly you`re saying that if you had used 800 film the botched picture that you had taken of the DC Metro would had come out very well, and that outside photos would have come out a little less than 100% (grainy).
If that`s the case, I`ll use 800 for underground or nighttime shots, and 400 for regular daytime shots.
And don`t worry guys, you`ll be seeing the results of my work. Thanx again.
What cities in Canada do you plan on visiting?
I have used 800 for both outdoor and indoor shots. The outdoor shots came out perfect, and the indoor shots are slightly more grainy than I would like, but it's better than blurry.
Outdoor
Indoor
Where in Canada?
-Robert King
I'll be going to Montréal and Québec City for 6 days.
Don't be afraid of the Bombardiers up there ... for some strange reason, they WORK. :)
Zman... I'd take this offline if I had your email address, but since I don't... when my wife and I were in Québec City two years ago we dined at two excellent restaurants, one of which in particular was good enough to make us consider planning another vacation just to have an excuse to eat there. That one was the Restaurant aux Anciens Canadiens, which obviously catered to the tourist trade but whose cuisine was absolutely superb. I recommend the Bourguignon de caribou à la crème et au vin DuBleuet (served in a puff pastry). Diagonally across the street was the Crêperie le Petit Château, another excellent restaurant that had a fair mix of locals there as well as the tourists.
Oh, and bring your walking shoes... the hills are very steep. We had taken the train from Montréal and walked all the way to our hotel with luggage, uphill beyond the Parliament building. Had we any clue as to how tiring that climb would be we would have taken a cab. Downhill back to the train wasn't nearly the problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the restaurant recommendations. I will DEFINITELY hit the Crêperie. If the locals go there, then you know that it's got to be a nice place.
And sorry for the lack of an e-mail address. I've had too many wacko e-mails from foamers so I discontinued posting it.
Enjoy! And, let us know how you fare photographically when you get back.
-Robert King
I agree with Rob that the grain is only really obtrusive underground, where the only other choice is blur. The only reason I don't always use 800 is that 400 is a bit cheaper.
I can't say that my Metro shot would have come out much better with 800, but odds are that it would have come out a bit better.
As for 1600, I think it would be wonderful for the subway (I still get a lot of blur with 800, though less than with 400), but I'm not sure if I want to spend $4 on a roll of film. Maybe I'll give one roll a try and see how it comes out.
In my case, though, I'm looking to go digital. All I do with my prints is scan them, and since the beginning of 2001 I've spent over $500 on film and developing, and prices have risen. That means that, if I continue at my current rate, a $500 digital camera will have paid for itself by the end of 2003, even if my time is worth nothing. Any recommendations?
Thanks for the photo advice.
Looking at the underground photo listed in Rob's post, it sure does appear that 800 wouldn't be the way to go if the station is well lit, but it would be perfect in the case of the Washington Metro since the majority of stations there are rather dark.
Just to expand on a point I made in another reply to you - as long as you can tolerate the grain, you can always go with a faster (higher ISO) film. This has a number of useful points - the camera can use a faster shutter speed (less motion blur on moving objects) and/or a smaller aperture (produces greater depth of field). Cameras are generally better at dealing with too much light than too little light.
In my case, though, I'm looking to go digital. All I do with my prints is scan them, and since the beginning of 2001 I've spent over $500 on film and developing, and prices have risen. That means that, if I continue at my current rate, a $500 digital camera will have paid for itself by the end of 2003, even if my time is worth nothing. Any recommendations?
Recommendations? Yeah, stay with film! I got a really spiffy 3.1 MP Canon Powershot G1 about a year ago. It's pretty good for nice holiday snaps, but forget it for anything of value. Either the autofocus will trip you up and you get a blurry train and a prefectly focused background, or you will drastically under or overexpose constantly.
I don't shoot train pics much any more, just regular day-to-day things, family, pets, etc, but I usually have to take 4 or 5 shots, play with bracketing, etc, just to get something acceptable.
Try shooting a picture of a temperamental cat with a fluffy white belly on a green carpet and see how many digital tries you'll have to mess with before you get shredded by an irate calico.
The answer is eight.
You're thinking "OK, maybe he's a lousy photographer and he's blaming his equipment." Well, maybe, but the 3 newspaper awards I have from the 80s (when I was the guy hunting fires and crashes at night) might say differently :-)
When I went on vacation up to the Maritime provinces of Canada last month, I blew off 8 rolls of 100 and 200 speed film and about 500 digital pics (both my wife and I took turns with each camera). Invariably, the quality was an order of magnitude better with my Nikon FM2 (pry *that* puppy out of my Cold Dead Hands) than the Powershot G1.
It might also be feature fatigue on my part as well...I'm used to setting exactly TWO things on my Nikon before I shoot. Aperature and shutter speed. I don't have to worry about the zillion menu items etc. Three if I use a flash, and four if I bounce it.
With my film camera I count pictures per second (with the motor drive). With the digital camera--always and forever set to full-resolution mode--it's how many seconds per picture. This "feature" alone drives me bug-f---.
I spent almost $750 for this beastie when it was new because it was the only one that allowed full manual as well as auto. Full manual my feathered fanny. Like depth of field? How's F8 sound as your smallest aperature. Like to try nice artistic shots of flowing water with a slow shutterspeed? Good luck if it's a nice bright sunny day.
For train and tunnel pictures, nothing beats 400 or 800 speed for me. Take a look at http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/cityhall.html or my book cover to see why I say that.
Sorry to rant. I don't mean to sound angry, but I feel I was sold a bill of Digital Goods. Yes, it's a LOT less expensive in the long run, and if you're just after a way to take some fun pictures that you can quickly and easily upload, it's a dream come true for that. If, on the other hand, you make photographs instead of taking pictures, do yourself a favour and find a nice old mechanical Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc, and create to your heart's content.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Sorry to rant. I don't mean to sound angry, but I feel I was sold a bill of Digital Goods.
BTW, all the pictures I've posted references to that have file names of the form 639Cxxxx were taken with a digital camera. That's the good news. The bad news is it is a Canon EOS 1D, which has a street price of about $5K (body only, no lens) and good lenses start at about $500 and go up (waaaaay up) from there. It shoots 8+ shots per second in its fastest drive mode.
I used film exclusively for a long time. When I decided to get back into photography after a long hiatus, I bought a cheap Canon Rebel G with the kit lens in early 1997, just to see if I was still any good at it. In my first day of using it, I had 2 award-winning shots. Later, when I decided to do this semi-professionally, I used 3 Elan 7 bodies (one with B/W film, and one each with two different color films). The WTC pictures were shot with the Elan 7 and scanned at 4000 DPI, 42-bit.
I decided I needed an even better camera body for some work, and bought an EOS 1v HS. If you've ever seen one, it's a lot of camera. Rather than learn by trial and error, and wait hours to see if my effects shots were coming out, I bought the EOS 1D body just to perfect my 1v film technique - the 1D is the exact same body as the 1v, except it is digital instead of film. But I soon wound up using the 1D for just about all assignments. I get nearly-as-good prints with a lot less work, and a lot less disk space (a 35mm scan at 400DPI/40-bit is over 100MB, a 1D RAW image is about 4MB, and it makes JPEGs at the same time).
Canon has just introduced the 1Ds, which is an 11+ megapixel version of the 1D, and I'll be getting that as soon as it is available. I've had no problem producing acceptable 13x19 prints with the 1D, and I'm hoping to do 20x30 with the 1Ds.
A lot of this technology should be filtering down to the cheaper, non-interchangeable-lens digital cameras. Those cameras actually do have an advantage - since they don't have to use 35mm SLR lenses, they don't need a huge image sensor and can therefor use smaller lenses, saving on costs. The biggest difference you'll probably see is the speed and accuracy of focusing. [The 1D has 45-point autofocus across the full frame and can track focus while shooting at the 8+ frames per second rate.]
I'm with you, Peter... I have a stable of Canons and Exaktas, all manual everything, and a good collection of lenses ranging from 20mm to 300mm (high quality) plus a 325-650mm half-binocular zoom (average quality, but it did nicely at the Grand Canyon last year). Kodachrome rules! (Now if I could just find a scanner that can handle Kodachrome without major issues at a price I can afford... Kodachrome's unusual grain structure and special dyes, so wonderful for archival permanence, make scanning a major problem.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the advice. I'm afraid I'm not a pro -- I'm more of an overenthusiastic amateur -- and I can't afford to continue paying as much as I am now for this hobby. Scanning is also a huge time drain (right now I have a backlog of 14 36-exposure rolls), and I'm certainly not getting great results out of my free-after-rebate Memorex 6142u scanner. (If I had a film scanner, it might be worth sticking with film, but that's another big expense.)
What I'm hoping to find is a digital camera that isn't too expensive that meets or exceeds what I have now -- at least 800 ASA (1600 would be nice), a decent zoom lens (my film camera goes up to 135 mm, but that's probably asking too much), and the option to store photos in a lossless format like TIFF or PNG so I can edit the images later without producing artifacts. I don't know if such a camera exists now, but one might in a few months.
I know how you feel about all the automatic stuff getting in the way -- but my Canon SureShot Z135 is all-automatic as well, so I don't think I'd do any worse with a digital. If anything, many digital cameras seem to have manual overrides that my Canon doesn't have.
Thanks again.
I have a backlog of rolls also, that I still have to sort through. It's time consuming. I wish I had more time to deal with it. I usually take slides though, as they supposedly last the best. I'm more into quality than quantity. I just bought a slide/film/etc scanner. It seems to work pretty well on the slides. The problem I have with digital photos is that the photos will not last like regular film developed photographs, although you do have the option of reprinting them, provided you don't loose the files, or the computer doesn't crash.
Although, digital photos are great if you just want to shoot off many photos inexpensively. I guess it all depends on the person, and their reasons for taking their photos.
"The problem I have with digital photos is that the photos will not last like regular film"
Not really, If you burn the files onto optical media, like a CD or DVD they will last longer than film emulsion.
"you do have the option of reprinting them, provided you don't loose the files"
Same goes for film, you can reprint them as long as you don't lose the negatives.
BTW.. what film scanner do you use?
I'm at work now, so I don't have the model number, but it's a Canon. I got it at Best Buy, it was about $149.00. I only had it a week, but so far I am happy with it.
I'm more of an overenthusiastic amateur -- and I can't afford to continue paying as much as I am now for this hobby. Scanning is also a huge time drain (right now I have a backlog of 14 36-exposure rolls), and I'm certainly not getting great results out of my free-after-rebate Memorex 6142u scanner. (If I had a film scanner, it might be worth sticking with film, but that's another big expense.)
You may want to take a look on eBay and see what shows up there. There are some good negative scanners from Minolta that are a few years old (I borrowed one from a friend last year) and do a remarkable job that can be gotten for a good price. My caveat, though, is before buying a used negative scanner from eBay, check the manufacturer's Web site to see if there are drivers available for your OS. The Minolta didn't have speciic Win2K drivers and it was a real problem. It was SCSI, and the best I can say was it worked
when it was the only device on the chain. Under 98 it worked like a dream.
That said, if your primary reason for going digital is expense, then you may be in luck. Beware, however, that to get images of decent quality you'll need to get at least a 3 Mega Pixel camera, if not 4 or more. I use a 3.1 from Canon, and when I *do* get a usable image from it, it can be blown up to an 8.5 x 11 and looks almost as good as film. But I wouldn't blow it up any more than that. The problem is that 3 and 4 MP cameras are still rather expensive up front, and you also need to run with at least a 128 Mb card that will add another $50 to that.
What I'm hoping to find is a digital camera that isn't too expensive that meets or exceeds what I have now -- at least 800 ASA (1600 would be nice), a decent zoom lens (my film camera goes up to 135 mm, but that's probably asking too much), and the option to store photos in a lossless format like TIFF or PNG so I can edit the images later without producing artifacts. I don't know if such a camera exists now, but one might in a few months.
I don't think most consumer-grade digital boxen have ISO speeds above 400 (my Powershot G1 has settings for Auto, 50, 100, 200 and 400--and 400 is noisy as hell!)
Optics on these cameras are *nothing* like optics on fixed-length lenses for 35mm cameras of course, but since you're already using a PHS camera (Push Here, Stupid < grin--I'm joking >) with (I'm guessing) a non-interchangeable lens, that shouldn't be a problem. I think my G1 does the equivalent of a 35mm-105mm zoom on a 35mm cmera.
You can indeed save as high-res RAW format on Canon, and most others will let you save as a TIFF, but remember that in doing so, you drastically reduce the number of images that you can store on your memory card. For example, I use JPEG format, 3.1 MegaPixel when I shoot, and I can fit 71 images on a 128 Mb card. If I go to RAW mode, that number drops I think 64 or 65 (I don't even remember how to get it into that mode, so I can't easily check).
As Terry mentioned in another post, if you want top quality in digital, be prepared to pay through the snout. For me, I'd never do it, but then I no longer shoot much of anything other than family and friends any more (kinda lost the bug a few years back).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
I think it might be worth my while to wait another few months before making a purchase.
Keep in mind that I don't care about prints. All I do with prints now is scan them and put them in a pile. Even 3 megapixels sounds like a lot for posting on the web.
Thanks again for the advice.
3 m.p. is a lot for posting on the web. Even 2 m.p. (1600x1200 or so) is too much. I recently upgraded to a 4.1 Sony S-85. (last year's model, around $550 now). That gives you an image of around 2270x1700. Way too much for the web! So for posting pictures to the site I'd resize down to 800x600 but keep the bigger one for getting prints made.
Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to send you submissions that large! I edit everything. (That's why I'd prefer PNGs or TIFFs.) Especially if I don't have as wide a zoom range as I do on my current camera, I want to start huge so I can crop and make whatever changes need to be made. Of course, then I scale down as appropriate.
In what conditions would one use 1600 type film?
I am using your regular 35mm Ricoh camera for my shots, and stated in a post a few minutes ago that I'll be using 400 for outside shots, and 800 for underground/nighttime shots.
I'm just wondering for what purposes 1600 is used?
Thanx.
It sounds like you want some photographic background info, so I'll oblige. Forgive me if the following is too basic/not what you were looking for.
All other things being equal (which they never are 8-) you want the lowest ISO film that will do the job. Lots of film makers provide film down to 100 or so, and specialty films are available in the 5 to 25 range. The lower the ISO, the finer the grain.
However, slow film will need either longer exposures, more light, or both. For transit photography, 15-second or longer exposures and a couple floodlights won't work, so we use faster film.
If you are photographing stationary trains without people and use a tripod, you can get by with slower film (since even with a long exposure, you won't get any motion blur since neither your camera nor the subject are moving). I find I can hand-hold acceptably at 400 to take pictures in the subway, if the train isn't moving. For example:
(Kodak Royal Gold 400, f4.5, 1/30 sec)
Once you or the trains start moving, it's time for faster film. Either 800 or 1600. If you won't be shooting anything in daylight on the roll of film, I'd suggest a good 1600, otherwise 800. Here is a shot at 1600 using a 400mm image stablized telephoto:
(Fuji Press 1600, f4.0, 8 sec)
And now, a couple specific hints:
1) Use a good 800/1600 film to minimize grain. I like Fuji Press. Unfortunately it is only available in packages of 20 rolls from places like B&H. This is what pros use when they shoot things like basketball games. I just checked and B&H has Press 800 single rolls for $2.95 and a 20-pack for $59.00, while the Press 1600 is only available in 20-packs for $79.80.
2) Print film is far more forgiving of exposure errors than slide film.
3) As a side effect of #2, most 1-hour photo places (and similar) are going to use automated printers which try to make your prints have the "expected" brightness. So pictures like a moon on a dark night will usually have the "dark night" turned up to a nice 18% gray level. If you're taking pictures like this, I'd suggest telling the operator to manually adjust levels on the prints. Of course, this only works in a smaller lab - places that send out film for processing or where the person you talk to isn't the person making the prints are likely to be problematic. Some people will tell you that you should use a pro lab. My experience is you'll pay a lot more and not get prints that are much better (and in some cases, worse). The WTC picture I posted above was developed by my corner mini-lab, and scanned by me from the negative.
Thank you for the info Terry. Basic info is exactly what I am looking for. After all, I'm a T/O and not a professional photographer (far from it).
Last thing that I ask is what lab would one suggest to develop say one or two rolls of 800/1600 film (and how much would I expect to pay?). I have taken many night shots which either barely came out, or had that wonderful "18% gray level" on it which ruined what little of a photo actually came out. Last thing I need is to go up to Québec to take bus shots and get nothing but gray blurrs. Since I really haven't had any success with nighttime shots though, I'm only going to "experiment" if you will.
I would be looking for a lab in Manhattan or Queens.
If the camera correctly exposed the film (or at least came close), then you can always have the negatives re-printed by a different lab if the first lab can't/won't hand-adjust the print levels. You should be able to eyeball the negatives to see if there are different densities, or if they're almost completely clear (meaning a seriously underexposed negative).
Many point-and-shoot cameras will refuse to shoot if they can't come up with what their sensors tell them will be a useful exposure. Others will fire when you push the button, no matter how bad a shot it will generate. Without knowing what brand/model your camera is, I can't tell you which you have (and unless it is a Canon, I probably won't be able to tell anyway).
However, if you shoot at 1600 you should be Ok if you're shooting indoors, or outside at night.
If you don't want to spring for a carton of the Fuji 1600 before trying it, I could give you a roll or two to play with (you could shoot in NYC and develop before leaving, as a test). I'm going to be in Queens near the Jamaica Yard Thursday evening and Friday - you could email me if you wanted to meet somewhere to get the film.
BTW, here is a large (1.25MB) image from the recent Steeplecab tour. It is the lower level of 9th Ave, shot with natural light (a few bare bulbs) through the window of the Triplex at ASA 200. This was done with a digital camera, but it shows what can be done if you're willing to throw enough money at the problem (the gear that took this shot was about $10K). This isn't a great shot (I took it in a hurry before exiting the train for better-composed shots) but it does show you can get good shots at slow film (or digital equivalent) speeds.
Oh, and what speed is your lens? The typical "kit" lens on a 35mm is a medium zoom (28-80 is a common range) with a relatively slow speed/small maximum aperture (f4.5-5.6 is common; smaller numbers are better - and bigger - with pro lenses being in the f2.8 or better range).
BTW, here is a large (1.25MB) image from the recent Steeplecab tour. It is the lower level of 9th Ave, shot with natural light
I'm so kicking myself for missing that tour. Abandoned stations are my absolute raison d'etre of railfanning, and because I was out of print and working on the next edition, I decided to sit that one out. Gaaaah!
BTW, what a wonderful photograph of the Twin Towers of Light. One of the best I've ever seen.
Z-Man: Don't worry about a lab if you're shooting pictures of busses top-side. Any good photo-processing shop or even corner store will do a good job with those. With pictures from the Metro, however, I'd bring them to a photo shop where the operator can control the printing process. The Metro is a wonderful system and I cut my teeth on shooting it when I was a teenager. Unfortunately, those images are lost forever, but I recall some wonderful stuff back then--when the only cheap colour film I could afford was Kodak's ASA-80 print film (in the METAL containers)! Most of what I shot was Tri-X and Pan-X monochrome.
I've never tried 1600 before, and I'd like to blow off a roll sometime myself. I may buy a pack and see how it goes. I assume that this should be kept in the fridge or freezer. I still have 3 or 4 rolls of 800 Fuji in the freezer that are a few years old (I have been shooting far too much digital lately).
Back when I was able to get into some fun places in the subway I was shooting only 400 and 800, and unless a flash failed to fire, I always got good to excellent results myself.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
BTW, what a wonderful photograph of the Twin Towers of Light. One of the best I've ever seen.
Thanks! I have a large gallery of them (several hundred shots) but most aren't on the web. In general, they only land on my web page when someone wants to see a preview before purchasing a large-format print. here is one from a less extreme zoom, and here is one with a super wide angle.
Back when I was able to get into some fun places in the subway I was shooting only 400 and 800, and unless a flash failed to fire, I always got good to excellent results myself.
Sure, if you're using a flash you can get away with slower film. But there are a few problems with flash - it's prohibited for one thing, and even with a pro flash, the objects we photograph are large enough that we get a lot of light fall-off at the edges of the frame. here is another 1.25MB image from 9th Ave - looking into the area past the end of the platform.
I bought a roll of Fuji's 1600 slide film two years ago, just to see how good it was for general photography in low light situations including the subway and dusk/early dawn. In the subway, I had a filter on my lens to counterbalance out the effects of the flourescent lighting which, with the filter factor, reduced the effective speed of the film to around 800. So, it was rather grainy when projected and there wasn't too much depth of field since I won't drop my camera's shutter speed to less than 1/60th of a second unless I absolutly need to in order to get a shot I absolutely need to have.
Personally, I've settled on doing 'clandestine tripod operations' in the subway to get only an extremely small number of very specific shots. Planning is everything: One shot (not including any braketing) of one train in one station and then out of there, into the street and into a coffee shop for a while for things to calm down, if a complaint goes out but I always try to be as unobtrusive as possible and never venture into restricted areas. I also very rarely do this, too, and the only time I've run into 'Salaamallah' trouble was once, before I devised this method.
Back to the 1600 film: To date, I've only shot the one roll of it, but on that test roll, I did find a good application for it. It's fantastic for doing handheld pictures of streetcars at dusk. The colour rendition (as I'm able to see it) and the film's overall appearance with the grain is very artistic, although this is usually a secondary concern when railfan photography is concerned and, personally, I'm usually not a fan of big grain at all.
-Robert King
Bill, I'm assuming that you're not a member of the Fourth Estate, so it may be difficult to get a permit from WMATA for photography (I presume you've already seen Andee's post with the info), and even if you can they probably wouldn't issue it on the spot. So you might want to be extremely careful. With the rail convention in town this weekend, you'll probably be OK at Union Station, particularly in the area of the DMU, but the subway is another matter entirely.
With that in mind, I'd consider two things: one, pack ASA 64 or 100 film for general outdoor shooting and in areas where flash is permitted (assuming you're going to be in any such - it's getting harder and harder to even find "ordinary" museums that permit flash, and that goes long before 09/11) and two, a "disposable" (read: ultra-cheap fixed-focus) camera loaded with 800 or even 1600 for any shots you might choose to risk in the subway. It's so grainy that you will be VERY disappointed in any outdoor shots you take.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Use 800 and do not use flash! Also, just don't be too obvious about what you are doing and I would stay away from Pentagon and Capitol South (although I have not personally tried either myself since 9/11). I haven't had too much trouble since 9/11 but you never know. I would photograph at Woodley Park, National Airport, or Smithsonian if you want to blend in as a tourist.
The latest issue of Newsweek has an op-ed piece by Allan Sloan about federal funding of Amtrak and the airlines. The piece expresses the view that there is a double standard, with Amtrak being expected to make money while airlines are not, and calls for a more level playing field. It's good to see that opinion being aired in a mainstream publication. Not that anyone will listen, but it's a start.
Mark
I was standing by the railfan window on a Q slant, about 7:00pm last night on my way home from work. As we were heading south past Church Ave. I was holding on to the door handle when the door just opened. I quickly closed the door, but it was nice to feel the wind on my face, and have an unobstructed view of the Brighton Express run.
I remember someone posted here a while ago how the storm doors used to be left unlocked more often years ago.
If anyone is interested the lead car on that train was #4416, maybe someone on this board is interested in shooting a railfan video from that car? :-)
End Storm doors on the operating motors must be locked and it is a rule that requires this. Most T/O's check the door when they get on their train but sometimes the door is locked but not closed all the way or just plain unlocked.
I've seen Slants just from the yard at Brigthon beach with unlocked end doors. I've just knocked on the cab door and told the T/O. Most times they thank me and lock it at the next station stop.
That's pretty cool. I've checked countless storm doors and they've always been locked for me. I think a T/O once yelled at me for checking the handle.
--Brian
I once checked and found the door would open. I told the T/O and he was very appreciative. He told me he could be severely disciplined for forgetting to check it himself (I guess by that time he realized I wasn't a TSS).
I instinctively check the door handle whenever I stand at the window -- if I'm going to use it as a support, I'd like to know it isn't going to slide away. I only once found it open, also on an R-40. I informed the T/O as I got off at Queensboro Plaza and he thanked me.
I give the handle a tug-tug occasionally as a train starts moving. Once while on an R-21/22, I tugged on the handle and the door opened! Perhaps it hadn't properly latched, as the handle was locked.
I had one slide open on me at DeKalb Ave this summer on an R-42. I told the motorman who then locked it and thanked me profusely.
--Mark
?, maybe someone on this board is interested in shooting a railfan video?
i would have if they did not act like such a fool these days !
stopping folks from shooting videos !
I'm not suprised, the locks probably get weak after all that jarring by people at the railfan window. :-0
>>> I remember someone posted here a while ago how the storm doors used to be left unlocked more often years ago. <<<
Unlocked? I can remember riding on the 3rd Avenue El on hot summer days with the storm door open, and only the chains across the doorway. That was the ultimate railfan window.
Tom
An unlocked storm door on a lead or trailing car should be reported to transit personnel. It may have been fun for you, but I would not want to have someone else accidentally ejected from the train that way.
Standards of safety were different then, Ron... I'm older than you by a fair chunk and I suspect that Tom's got a year or two on me as well. We remember, somewhat nostalgically, the days when people were willing to be responsible for their own safety, and willing to accept that if they chose to stand near an open doorway on a moving train and something happened that it was their own fault, not the fault of some faceless entity called the TA. We grew up before seat belts and backup lights in cars, back when you didn't lock your house and you left your keys in your car because you didn't want to wear holes in your pockets. We grew up in a time when we knew who our enemies were, when our biggest worries were annhialation in one gigantic flash at the hands of the Soviet Union rather than being "nibbled to death by ducks" called terrorists. We are of your parents' generation, and we think and act accordingly.
Soapbox mode = OFF.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> We grew up before seat belts and backup lights in cars, back when you didn't lock your house and you left your keys in your car because you didn't want to wear holes in your pockets. <<<
Add to that, a time when mothers routinely left their babies sleeping in their carriages outside of a store when they went in to shop, and latchkey kids (I started in kindergarten having to cross 2nd Avenue to get home, and living less than a block away from the unfenced East River) were the norm among single parent working class families.
Tom
Right you are, Tom. When I was in first grade (age 5 - I skipped kindergarten) I came home to an empty house almost every day because both of my parents travelled extensively, and I'd have to heat my own supper or fix a sandwich a couple of nights a week (my great-aunt and -uncle checked in by phone a couple of times each evening and had me over for dinner every Tuesday night, and I often had invites other nights of the week as well from other folks). After I was badly injured in an accident the summer before third grade my grandmother stayed with me in our house for the first two months after school started, but once I could manuever around the house without a wheelchair I was on my own again. (The school bus driver would come to the house and carry me out to the bus until I was able to get there myself on crutches - I'll never forget you, Mr. Arnold.) Was it the best way to grow up? No, but at least I learned to cook at an early age, I learned how NOT to raise my children, and I learned that there really are a lot of good, caring people in the world.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That happened to me as well when I was a kid. I was riding the D train express on a set of R42's. We were on the exp track around Avenue M when I held on to the handle and the door opened. My mother freaked out. My sister and I were banned from our favorite pastime on the subway for at least a year until my mother got over that incident. That's why I liked riding the train with Pops. Stuff like that didn't bother him, and he understood that this was an isolated event.
Thanks for your help Notchit. You're just what we need. Someone who posts incidents, times, locations, and CAR NUMBERS. Keep up the good work!
I remember a few weeks back I rode car 9611 on the 7 Express and its storm door was open. I placed a sign on the door saying that the door was open and some "stoonad" did not know what my sign meant. Then he realized "uh duh" door is open.
I think 9610 is now a lead motor north. Will just have to wait for the next time that 9611 is a lead car south. WEE!!!! Easy scenic pics and filming!
#9611 7 Flushing Express
WMATA Press Release located at:
http://www.wmata.com/about/MET_NEWS/200209/pr_referendum.cfm
This morning, I took the 8:30 out of Cedarhurst toward Penn Station. This train starts out of Far Rock at 8:21. At some point between Locust Manor station and the Jamaica Underjump the train stalled. At first a door malfunction was suspended. All the doors were set to bypass but the train still would not move. Finally, after a delay of about 30 minutes, the engineer ran the train from the last cab and one of the conductors acted as lookout from the front cab.
Does anyone know what happened? It made me real late to work.
"Finally, after a delay of about 30 minutes, the engineer ran the train from the last cab and one of the conductors acted as lookout from the front cab."
Amazing that they still allow that. I don't have an informed opinion as to if it's really 100% safe, but I would have thought that past mishaps here and there would have made that an unacceptable practice.
>>>>>>>>>>Amazing that they still allow that. I don't have an informed opinion as to if it's really 100% safe, but I would have thought that past mishaps here and there would have made that an unacceptable practice.
What did you expect them to do, leave the train there and wait for a supervisor and make everybody even later for work? Guess what, ain't gonna happen. You have to do what needs to be done in order to move that train. No such thing as discharging a train in the middle of nowhere on the LIRR/MNCR 99% of the time. Crews are thoroughly trained with breakdowns and what needs to be done when they occur.
The procedure that they were performing is called a "flagging" procedure. The conductor acts as the eyes of the engineer by providing a continuous, unbroken means of communication with the engineer by either voice communication or by buzzer communication. If the voice or buzzer stops, then the train immediately stops. Of course, you're not going to do 55 mph while flagging. You'll have to go at a reduced speed (with the NYCTA, maximum flagging speed is 10 mph).
Well, they did it.
I've been pushed in a dead 4 car LIRR bilevel train (engine completely crapped out, not even hotel power) by an MP-15 pulling 5 coaches of its own. They transferred us to the old coaches at the next stop, but we continued as a double train like that from Glen Head all the way to Jamaica at 10MPH. We must've been quite a sight!
Operating from the wrong end of the same train suddenly seems a whole lot safer, eh?
yea well these old M1s are feeling their years so they are becoming problematic alot lately. In Metro North our M1s arent bad, but since i work the overnight shift in Grand Central, EVERYTHING possible has happened to these old cars. especially third rail stall! and u were late because according 2 one of the special instructions, i forgot which one exactly. I believe one of them says, when ur train must be run from any cab except the front cab, u must call the Movement Bureau ASAP. they probably gave the brakeman instructions on how to move the train. Now since this happened in 261 territory on the Atlantic branch, he can run on either track except they wouldnt do that in rush hour. so his only option is to run with RESTRICTED SPEED, with extreme caution. so they probably had to set up ABSOLUTE BLOCK for him
Remember that MTA managers monitor this board from time to time.
Not with your last post, but overall watch what you say. Especially since you're on probation. You don't want to lose what you've just gotten.
Who actually "own's" the SIRR west of St George..the abandoned rite of
way & the bridge to NJ. I read the Port Authority will invest a bundle in the Howland Hook container facility..and will transport via
the RR..to NJ & Beyond... Anyone have some info on this...?? thanks.
The ROW west of St. George is owned by the NYC Economic Development Corporation. The New Jersey side of the line, and the bridge, are owned by the Port Authority, leased by the EDC. Norfolk Southern is the operator designated by the EDC once the line is opened. THe PA recently purchased the Olympia Trails bus depot site and some other adjacent properties to build a connection from the Chemical Coast line to the SIRR. Operation is expected to begin in 2004, with up to 10 trains per day using the line by 2007.
-Hank
the line in new jersey is leased to the morristown and erie i thought. they also have rights on the rahway valley line
Hank: As always your the man to speak to when Staten Island comes up.
What was the purpose of the Travis Branch? I had always assumed it was to deliver coal to the Con Ed plant there but Lou from Brooklyn informed me that the plant never burnt coal.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Did they recently change the schedules for the Pennsylvanian? It used to leave Pittsburgh going eastbound at 11:30ish AM, now it leaves at 1 PM. Can anyone confirm this and prove that I'm not imagining things?
Why don't you check www.amtrak.com?
www.amtrak.com doesn't give you the old schedules. He's wondering whether he is right in thinking it used to go at a different time.
I see.
Amtrak's April 29, 2002, timetable has the Pennsylvanian (train 44) departing Pittsburgh at 11:35 AM.
Thanks
Excuse this post if it is a repeat, but I was wondering when the Jamacia el was abandoned between 168th and 121st. I think the portion between 168th and Queens Blvd was in 1977 and the rest sometime in the early 80s. Does someone know exactly?!?! Furthermore when was the portion of the Fulton El abandoned between Rockaway Ave and Hudson? I figure it had to be between 1952 and 1956, but when?
Thanx
-Eric
Excuse this post if it is a repeat, but I was wondering when the Jamacia el was abandoned between 168th and 121st.
Queens Blvd to 168th was abandoned on September 11, 1977. 121st Street to Queens Boulevard on April 13, 1985. Archer Avenue was opened on December 11, 1988.
Furthermore when was the portion of the Fulton El abandoned between Rockaway Ave and Hudson?
April 27, 1956.
Todd that would be a perfect time for the trip. The last weekend of opeation and not too many persons on property so we would have run of museum what do you think? Todd,Subtalkers discuss Stevie
Unfortunately I'll be on another corner of the country on a business trip, otherwise I'd love to.
"business trip"
Hahaha hohoho hehehe....Yup
Hey Stevie,
How about it, go South on I~95 to Connecticut, instead of North to
Maine and join us. A bunch of SubTalkers coming, Steve B 8th AVE EXP,
Selkirk TMO & Nancy, CI Peter, David Cole and your hosts from
SubTalk & Branford, the 3/4 toners Thurston [Mr. RT]; BMT Man;
Big Lou from Brooklyn, John S aka Sparky also on hand Anon_e_mous,
North Jersey Coast, Jeff H. and others.
Have you ever visited Branford? You know who I am, operated 13 of
the past 16 years and am a Seahore Member also.
So how about it Stevie, we'd love to have ya.
;|] Sparky
And of course, what *I* would enjoy immensely is having some of my RTO buddies from here along - torture Unca Selkirk at the handles, grab some Arnine and see how things used to be in de hole. It'll make you a little more grateful for that cranky 68 you're running. :)
And no politics. Heh.
Kevin,
Stevie's a beantown boy. Very knowlegable of the MBTA. He would
add flavor to our gathering telling us about the caws & gards.
;| ) Sparky
Cool! I spent some time there myself many many years ago. The more the merrier ... and the more folks we have, the fewer sandbags we'll need to load. Just kidding. :)
Thanks for the invites everyone. i would like to take you up on the offer. my health hasnt been good this summer so we will have to see. i would love to come. Stevie :-)
If you CAN make it, be pleased to meet ya! Hopefully you'll catch a second wind and can join us. Would bribery with chowdah be out of the question? :)
I'll hopefully be there, too.
Excellent! The LIRR will be represented....cool!
The House of Representatives has approved more funding for construction of the Second Avenue Subway, though it’s just a drop in the bucket for the long-awaited line. The house gave 4 million dollars towards the 10 billion dollar project which is suppose to take 8 years to build. BTW: There is a uncomfirmed report that groundbreaking should begin in about 2004 or 2005. Don't dispute me about being wrong and stuff because you are fortold I'm most likely wrong.
Also, there was a wake for the train driver who died while testing the Bombardier Airtrain.
"There is a uncomfirmed report that groundbreaking should begin in about 2004 or 2005. Don't dispute me about being wrong and stuff because you are fortold I'm most likely wrong."
That's not a rumor. It's in the Capital Plan.
("There is a uncomfirmed report that groundbreaking should begin in about 2004 or 2005. Don't dispute me about being wrong
and stuff because you are fortold I'm most likely wrong."
That's not a rumor. It's in the Capital Plan. )
It's a rumour until funds are "encumbered." That's the technical MTA term for money being reserved and available, not ever to be diverted somewhere else.
As for the $4 million, I don't refer to her as Carolyn Baloney for nothing. The purpose of the $4 million was to get her name in the newspaper, and as long as that will do the trick, that's all we're getting. But at least she's pushing the issue.
>>It's a rumour until funds are "encumbered." That's the technical MTA term for money being reserved and available, not ever to be diverted somewhere else.<<
Ah. I C. So technically, the MTA can begin construction on the Second Avenue line anytime in the near futute as long as theres 10 billion dollars, am I right?
What a joke. $4M toward a $10B project? Political grandstanding and nothing more.
This is the equivalent of giving a $16 bonus to an employee making $40K per year.
Congress should be ashamed. Instead, they issue press releases. And the morons in the media latch on and print them.
CG
Has Anyone Heard the announcements on the New tech trains running on the #4 line? I Took a R142A 4 train home from skool today from Bedford Park Boulevard, and it was a pretty nice ride. Just when I thought the voice from the #2 train was IRRITATING, This voice tops it by leaps and bounds. Why is this voice so "Jerky"? I mean, there is a long pause between " The Next" and " Stop Is:" , and a long pause between " This is a Manhatten... Bound" and " 4 TRAIN!!!!" ( Why is He/ She / It shouting?)
ALL thoughts, rantings, comments, thread drift, and ravings welcome!!
( Pleeze, I'm on my knees and begging)
I too have heard that voice, I think because simply its the 4 Lexington Avenue Line the voice shouts. But it not as fluent as the R-143 voices.
what!!!!!an R142a on the #4 no way,i thought they were only on the #6
til next time
The #4 line has two sets of 142A's with more to come.
There are at LEAST ( from what I counted on the EL ) 3 sets in service. I was on 1 and saw 2 going the other way.
well there's 4 sets of them in service.I saw all 4 sets today plus I rode one of them too.
they seem to be spotty. one week i would see 1, another i would see 3 another, 0 another 4 then 0 again
My mistake, I belive they are Kawasaki R-142's.
No mistake. Kawasaki's cars ARE R-142As.
David
it does not matter the ANAHIEM ANGELS won tonight !!
..........lol
they did? cool!LET's GO ANGELS!! heh.ok I'm a sports fan so that means I root for more than 1 team in baseball,basketball,hockey,and football.I say between the Yanks and Angels,make the best team win.
I'm a fan of both teams so it doesnt matter to me which way it goes.
i thought the yankees came back and trounced them?
No, they lost Wed. night. Tuesday's was the one they came back. Awesome game, not *that's* postseason ball :)
well... to be honest, the announcements on the 4 line out flank the 6 line as the worst sounding announcements out of the new trains. i have to take the 4 to school and i dread riding the r142a on that line. the announcements make me cringe and make my blood run. i am happy when the announcements aren't working.
I saw the new LIRR cars pass me at Woodside going towards long island around 1:30 or so. The cars were going so fast i could not see if anyoner was on them but was able to see the digital code that said Hillside facility. Guess the new cars are rolling.
i saw it a jamaca before you did .....like a big dummy i missed a
good digital shot i could have taken on it & the lighting was in the
exact right place where i wnated it to be !
( oh well )...
i saw it a jamaica before you did .....like a big dummy i missed a
good digital shot i could have taken on it & the lighting was in the
exact right place where i wnated it to be !
( oh well )...
"Guess the new cars are rolling."
They are in testing, but not in revenue service yet. -Nick
Is it true that the first M-7's are supposed to go on the Long Beach branch?
I've heard that as well, but I'm somewhat skeptical. Unlike the TA, most LIRR rolling stock doesn't stay on any one particular line. A morning train from Ronkonkoma to Penn may then go light out to Freeport to make a second rush hour trip, and then do a Penn to Huntington local round trip.
Perhaps the first trip is a Long Beach to Penn or Flatbush trip, but I haven't seen anything official.
CG
I saw them TWICE today !!
12:45PM eastbound passing Copiague station and 9:13PM westbound passing Massapequa station. They have M-3 horns.
Bill "Newkirk"
yea guys. i see the M7 cars alot myself too. they always appear at night so i can never get a good shot of them. also rumor is they are supposed to make runs on the Long beach and Huntington lines. my assumption is they will prolly either make the same run everyday or prolly get tossed around the electric branches.
I was at Forest Hills station today. The train arrived westbound about 1:20, and returned eastbound about 2:00. Is this the usual test schedule? I want to go back tomorrow.
Well I have a whole list, but I am going ot keep them in the world of the possible, and get things done on a line needs done basis. With that the obvious 1 would be to rehab the J,M Lines in Manhattan and in Brooklyn, and fix up the West 8th Street stop, finish installing the New Master Towers throughout the system quickly. Make South Ferry into a 4 track-10 car terminal for Terminating 5 and 1/9 Lines. I would quickly Rehab the entire White Plains road Line. Then begin construction on the Sunnyside Subway Yard, and get the additional train capacity.
What changes do you propose?
"Make South Ferry into a 4 track-10 car terminal for Terminating 5 and 1/9 Lines."
How would you do that? The 5 comes from the north and the 1/9 come from the northwest. It takes some pretty sharp curves just to get them parallel for 5 car lengths. No reasonable way to get them parallel, and STRAIGHT, for 10 car lengths.
First: Do whatever is necessary to turn 137th, Dyckman, or some other station on the 1/9 into an adequate terminal (with three tracks and two island platforms, perhaps) so that the busiest part of the line can practically run at a full 30 tph without running unnecessary service to the Bronx, jamming up the only existing terminal.
Second: Rebuild Rogers junction so 5 trains to Flatbush don't eat up capacity on the West Side, as they do now. Alternatively, do some political magic and send all 5 trains to New Lots. Then fill up the West Side IRT express tracks to capacity. The junction north of 135th would probably also have to be reconstructed so SB 2's and NB 3's don't interfere.
How about this instead
Lines
1. Local service all day long
2. Same
3. Same, except some rush hour trains go to E 238 Street or 137 Street Broadway
4. Same
5. Lexington Avenue Express
Dyre 5, express all day in the Bronx from 6:00-12:30 to Manhattan, and 12:30-8:00(leaving Flatbush signed as an express) to the Bronx.
238-Nereid 5, extended (6:15-9:15 AM last train leaves E 238 at around 9:15 am, 4:00-7:00 PM last train will leave Flatbush at around 7:00 pm) give WPR riders more express service, with all day 5 express service in the Bronx. Compromise if Dyre riders want to have all day express service, they will have to put up with more 238 Street 5 trains, also WPR riders will have to get more rush hour service, it's only fair.
After Brooklyn service ends, #5 trains serve South Ferry during the evening (some begin right before rush ends). #5 is also extended to South Ferry on weekends as well.
6. Same, except late nights, #6 is extended to South Ferry and Bronx express lasts until 10:00 pm to match the #7 line.
7. Same
8. Lexington Avenue Local/South Ferry-Bowling Green Shuttle
Middays: Shuttle between South Ferry and Bowling Green
Rush Hours: Lexington Avenue Local (peak direction only), Bronx Express via Jerome Avenue From Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street and South Ferry skipping all stops between 149 Street Grand Concourse and Burnside Avenue. When PM rush is over, #8 service ends, #5 service runs to South Ferry.
9. 7th Avenue Local/Broadway Express
Middays: between 137 Street Broadway and South Ferry.
Rush Hours: peak direction from South Ferry, to 238 Street, skipping all stops between 96 Street and 137 Street, laying up at 240 Street yard, when PM rush ends, #9 service ends once all trains go to the yard
how bout "Impossible Service Changes"? you cant have all 3 Lex. trains running together after Brooklyn Bridge plus the 1/9,5,6 all together at SF.that's mega impossible,even though I know it's a fantasy idea.
Read again, the #6 will only be there during nights, the #5 and #6 will only be there together for about a 15-30 minute span between 11:00-11:15 pm. The #8 trains are limited, meaning that #4 service will slightly be decreased by a few trains(rush hour only) because they will be running on the same line in the Bronx, otherwise it is a shuttle and will not go past Bowling Green (weekdays only)
Read again, the #6 will only be there during nights, the #5 and #6 will only be there together for about a 15-30 minute span between 11:00-11:15 pm and maybe between 6:00-6:15 am as well. The #8 trains are limited, meaning that #4 service will slightly be decreased by a few trains(rush hour only) because they will be running on the same line in the Bronx, otherwise it is a shuttle and will not go past Bowling Green (weekdays only)
Here's my proposed services for the IRT:
1 Same
9 Same
2 Same
3 Same
4 Peak express service between 125 St and Burnside Ave
< 4 > to Woodlawn via exp, (4) terminates at Burnside, making local stops.
5 Operates to South Ferry mid days and weekends, Bx,Bk service same
6 Late nights to South Ferry
7 Same
"First: Do whatever is necessary to turn 137th, Dyckman, or some other station on the 1/9 into an adequate terminal"
How about this as an idea:
1/3 of all 1/9 trains are 242nd St locals making all stops.
1/3 are 242nd St expresses skipping 137th through 103rd. With luck this saves enough time that they can leapfrog one local.
1/3 are Dyckman St locals making all stops. Turn trains on the middle track north of Dyckman. Use switchmen so that each train is manned at both ends as it changes direction, obviating the need for a T/O to walk the length of the train and making it OK to leave passengers on the train. The cost of the switchmen is offset by the reduced need for all crews to go all the way up to 242nd.
That still sends much more service to the north end of the line than is necessary. There shouldn't be as much service to 238th as there is to 103rd, and there shouldn't be two-thirds as much service to 238th as there is to 50th.
Unless you boost service to 30 tph (total), expresses often won't pass locals. The express run probably saves about two minutes.
And, unless the rule is changed, passengers have to be cleared out before a relay even if the T/O doesn't have to move from his position.
Route all night & weekend Williamsburg Br. trains up 6th Av. This would definitely being more riders than the desolate Nassau line. since the policy is to give Manhattan lines two locals in the midnights, this would serve that function (The F is incredibly slow off hours). Weekends it can run into Queens like the V, or something.
For those coming from Chambers and Canal, you can have a shuttle from Essex to chambers, but if you build the transfer from Bleecker uptown platform to Bway-Laf, then they can take the 6 (and 4 at night)
At the very least the off-peak M should be rerouted up 6th Avenue. Having it terminate at Myrtle nights and weekends as it does now is inconvinient and wasteful.
I know this is a "fantasy" but they should tear the current Marcy Av station on the J,M,Z and build a new 3 track 2 island platform station & get rid of that senseless S-curve to/from the Williamsburg Bridge by reconfiguring it to a straight turn.
Pros:
a. The middle track to/from the bridge could have switches that could be built to merge/switch to/from the bridge rather than switching after Marcy Av.
b. I agree that the current M shuttle is a waste. The M shuttle could be extended from Myrtle Av to Marcy Av & it could terminate on the middle track when it is not used on weekends and late nights, providing shorter waiting times between Myrtle & Marcy Aves.
c. This would cut a few minutes of traveling time.
Cons:
This is not likely to ever happen but you never know.
I would like your opinions on this.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
For that they could just use Essex middle. They did this while Myrtle was being rebuilt, and it improved travel somewhat (direct connection to the F)
I forgot about that, maybe because it is a very odd double platform. What is the purpose of that? Anyway, it would be a good idea to bring M's to Essex to make connections with F's but I still say Marcy should become a real express station with double island platforms. Only thing is that when a GO occurs on the bridge it can't go on Essex.
From most important to least...
1) More W service badly needed!! maybe rename the < Q > to the T, and half the T run to West End, the other half Brighton express.
2) Reuse BJ tracks. It's real crowded at the stairs of Delancey/Essex with people going down and people going up.
3) Fix Bergen Interlocking- Even at 15tph, the F is packed!
These are only IND/BMT proposals since I'm not much of a IRT fan nor a IRT genius.
"More W service badly needed!! maybe rename the < Q > to the T, and half the T run to West End, the other half Brighton express."
Really? You have the M supplementing the W and it's still crowded?
" Fix Bergen Interlocking- Even at 15tph, the F is packed!"
Maybe that's because it's not 15 tph coming in from Brooklyn. The MTA schedule says 12 tph.
M is less packed but people rather take an express, they'd even get off a M at 36 St and take the W to Pacific, then take the same M. But the main reason for the W crowding is because it is the only bridge and only Bdwy express service from 4th Avenue and it saves a hell lotta time. Say you're at 36 St Brooklyn and you're trying to get to 57 St/Bdwy. The W would take 25min to get there. The N would take 35min, and the R would take 40min. After the Manny B gets fixed, West End should get to bridge services (12tph)(Brighton also as it is now).
And maybe you're right about the 12tph on the F since I don't look that deeply into the schedules, but either 12 or 15, Culver gets really crowded.
Your times are off. As usual, the express feels faster than it is -- I'm surprised your numbers are actually so close to reality. According to the posted schedule, the W takes about 28 minutes from 36th to 57th when it runs express and about 39 minutes when it runs local.
West End riders are fortunate in having both bridge and tunnel options. No other line in Brooklyn has both options -- the Brighton has only the bridge and the Sea Beach and 95th have only the tunnel. Sea Beach and 95th passengers have no choice but to transfer if they want the bridge; Brighton passengers have no choice but to transfer if they need the tunnel. If you want the bridge but don't want to wait for a W, why not take an M to DeKalb and transfer there to a Q?
How crowded do W's get, anyway?
"West End riders are fortunate in having both bridge and tunnel options"
West End riders want need the tunnel, they want to get to work in MANHATTAN, and same goes for Brighton. Most of the tunnel passengers come from Bay Ridge or people who want a slower yet less crowded ride to Manhattan. You ever see the amount of passengers at Canal St? Compare the # of passengers waiting at the express lower platform to the local upper platform, the ratio is a good 2:1.
"How crowded do W's get, anyway?"
Sometimes you would have to wait for the next W because of the crowdiness (in Brooklyn gound northbound that is, i don't know about manhattan and astoria).
I'm sure you're right that most West End riders want the bridge -- but don't some want the tunnel? By removing the M, you'll be denying them any chance of direct service.
More importantly, don't you think most Sea Beach and Bay Ridge riders also want the bridge? You had suggested that, when the bridge is fully reopened, the extra capacity go to the West End. The West End already has a lot of bridge service. Shouldn't the extra capacity go to the Sea Beach instead? (Unfortunately, the track layout makes direct Bay Ridge - bridge service difficult without reducing service overall.)
I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about crowding on one of their options when another option, which may be a bit slower or may require a cross-platform transfer, is mostly empty. If W's are too crowded for your taste, take an M to DeKalb and transfer across the platform to the Q, or do a bit of climbing and transfer to the IND at 9th Street or Fulton or to the IRT at Pacific, Court, Fulton, or Chambers. Millions of your fellow passengers take advantage of these transfers.
"How crowded do W's get, anyway?"
W's going northbound to Astoria, it has a good crowd since they took out the Astoria express, when trains would be almost empty and delays were commonplace. There's a good chance you'll get a seat on the W.
W's going southbound, once you hit 34 St its crowded, no seats but you'll have standing room and if you ride it sometime, try to get a seat by Canal St or you're screwed until 36 St or 9 Av.
Hope this helps.
My changes for the B Division are as follows:
A Operates to Far Rockaway, all times
C Extend to Lefferts Blvd, late nights shuttle service
E Service remains same
B operate to 179 Jamaica via 63 St, all times, 6 Av local late nites.
D Via CPW local to 205 St, Norwood, Brighton Exp weekdays to B.B.
F 179 Jamaica via 53 St weekdays, late nites Coney Island- West 4 St
V Eliminated
G Service remains same
S Rockaway Pk Shuttle remains same.
J Skip-Stop service all day 5:00 AM - 10:00 PM
M Service returns to Brighton weekdays via local to Coney Island
Z Jamaica Center-Bedford Park Blvd via CPW express weekdays 5:00 AM-10:00PM
L Service remains same
N All times Coney Island-Astoria
R Service remains same
Q Bay Pkwy-57 St-7 Ave, via West End Peak Exp, weekdays
W Eliminated
S Franklin Ave Shuttle remains same
The D and Z would have to cross at Bedford since access to the express is from the outer tracks that go to 205th Street.
D has been and should be CP express and Concourse.
Because the M is local in Brighton and D is express, Brighton local riders would have to transfer to get anywhere north of Delancey St, which is bad.
Broadway should have at least three lines on weekends. The N and the R alone are not sufficient. The weekend Q or W should stay.
OK then. A little update in my service patterns.
Q service will run as follows:
M-F 5 AM - 10PM Bay Pkwy-57 St, 7 Ave via Bridge and Bdwy Exp
10PM-5AM Bay Pkwy-Ditmars Blvd,Astoria via 4 Ave/Bdwy Local via Tunnel
R service:
M-F 5AM-10PM 95 St-Jamaica Center via Bdwy/Queens Blvd local
Sat, Sun, Holidays,Late Nites 95 St-Continental Ave via 4 Ave/Bdwy local
N service:
Daily 5AM-10PM Coney Island-Ditmars Blvd via 4 Ave/Bdwy local
10PM-5AM Coney Island-59 St-4 Ave
Z,D,C services:
Z Terminal swap to 168 St via CPW local
C Terminal swap to Bedford Park Blvd or 145 St
D Will resume express on CPW as it is now.
Brighton service patterns will not change between M and D, however I may consider running peak express service on both D and M trains on Brighton express. Midday service, both may run local or skip-stop service may be reinstated.
This assumes a fully functional Manhattan bridge come 2004:
A: 207th St. to Far Rockaway (all times) or Rockaway Park
B: Bedford Pk. Blvd (rush hours), 145th St. (middays), Pacific St. (weekends) or 36th St.(nights) to Coney Island via Sea Beach
C: 168th St Washington Heights to Lefferts Blvd, all times except nights, when it operates as a shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts
D: 205th St, Bronx to Brighton Beach via Brighton express (weekdays), or to Coney Island via Brighton local (other times)
E: 179th St, Jamaica to Chambers St, all times
F: Jamaica Center to Coney Island via 63rd St. Express in Brooklyn weekdays to 10 PM, local other times
G: Court Square to Church Ave., all times
J: Jamaica Center to Broad St (same as today)
M: Metropolitan Ave to Bay Parkway or 9th Ave or Myrtle (same as today)
N: Astoria to Coney Island via Broadway express south of 34th St, 4th Ave and West End to Coney Island. lae nights runs local in Manhattan and Brooklyn via tunnel
Q: 57/7th to Coney Island via Broadway express & Brighton local, weekdays to 10 PM
R: Forest Hills to 95th St (same as today)
V: Forest Hills to Church Ave via 53rd. St, weekdays to 10 PM
W: Astoria to Whitehall St. via Broadway local, weekdays to 10 PM
1: Same
2: Flatbush to Dyre Ave, all times
3: Same
4: Same
5: 241 St. to Flatbush (weekdays), Bowling Green (weekends), E180th (nights)
6: Same
7: Same
9: Same
Franklin and 42nd St shuttles: Same
Here's what I would do on the letter lines(since your looking ahead to 2004):
A:Service would be the same.
B:Same as pre 7/22/01 BUT it would be a West End Express from 9 Av to Bay Parkway then all stops to Coney Island(unless they do work at Stillwell Av) in the peak direction 6AM-10AM MB, 3PM-7:30PM Coney Island bound
C:Would replace Broad Channel shuttle to provide better service. Would see service to the Rockaways again by running from 168 St to Rockaway Park all times except nights where it would run from Euclid Av to Rockaway Park.
D:Same as pre 7/22/01
E:Service would be the same.
F/V:(F)Restore Culver express between Jay St and Kings Hwy.
a. Kings Hwy bound F's and G's or V's (to Church Av) would run as the local service(s) while Stillwell Av F's will run express.
b.All F's are express while G's run to Church Av all times and V's will run to Church Av or Kings Hwy weekdays in the peak direction.
(V)Runs between Kings Hwy or Church Av and 71-Continental Av,making all stops 6AM to 11PM weekdays
G:Trains will no longer terminate at Smith-9 Sts. I would restore trains to at least 6 cars. Would be extended to Church Av all times(depending on demand). Service would be the same as current G service north of Bergen St(Court Sq-Church Av until 10PM weekdays, 71-Continental-Church Av other times)
J/Z:(J)Would move J to the local track in Brooklyn. Would no longer be express between Marcy-Myrtle Aves unless a M increase happens. Extend it to Broad St all times except late nights(where it would terminate at Chambers) to give passengers transfers to the IRT and the A,C lines.
(Z) Make Z's express from Marcy Av to Broadway Junction then start skip stop at B'way instead of Myrtle Av in the peak direction & service times would be expanded(6AM-10AM MB, 3PM-8PM Jam. bound)
L:Service would be the same
M:Increase service on this line because it is needed, especially because of B'way & the West end portions. Service would be the same.
N:Restore Manhattan Bridge express service via B'way(stopping at 49 St). Would run all times except nights on this pattern unless Q's have expanded weekend service. Find a solution to make a Astoria express work.
a.Rebuild other Sea Beach express track(if possible since its in very poor shape)
b.If kept as 3 tracks, would run in the peak direction(a local sevice would probably have to be added, I was thinking of the W)
Q:Same as post 7/22/01 BUT I would experiment a weekend Brighton express. Would run from 7AM-7PM
R:Service would be the same
S:{Franklin} Service would be the same
S:{42 St} Service would be the same
S:{Rockaway Park} Would be replaced by a extended C
W:Would run between Coney Island via Sea Beach & Montague St(this would allow N's to run via Sea Beach express since the current service is slow) or Whitehall St and Astoria making all local stops. Would run weekdays 6AM-10PM.
Weekend service is a possibility if it:
a. Runs as a shuttle from 59 St to Coney Island(if there's switches that can make it work).
b. If the N is the only express service on Broadway on weekends
How does this look?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
If 6th Avenue is going to have three weekend services, then the minimum of services on Broadway should be three, so I like your idea of weekend Q or W service continuing after 2004. Broadway is a popular line on weekends so having only the N and the R as the only two weekend Broadway services won't cut it. The 6th Avenue line tends to be fairly quiet below 34th Street on weekends, so it possibly could get away with only two weekend services. 6th Avenue, under no circumstance, should have more weekend service than Broadway.
here's my ideas for post 2004. B 145 street 9th ave extend to bay parkway to Betford park rushhours. D as was pre conttuction F coney island 179 street exp peak in brooklyn. G extend to church all times exccept nights N in express in broolyn via bridge exp to 42 street. V extend to canaarie via broodway brooklyn rush hours. Q/Q dimond as present diamond W all time coney island to 57th street express 36 street to 57 sthreet weekdays evening and weekends stop at dekalb
Sounds good to me. I think if the Q doesn't run on weekends, then the B shouldn't run on weekends either. Why? Because the loads on the Manhattan Bridge need to be evenly balanced as much as possible. If we go back to having more service on the north tracks of the bridge than on the south in 2004, then the same old structural problems will reoccur.
If we go back to having more service on the north tracks of the bridge than on the south in 2004, then the same old structural problems will reoccur.
This is the same stupid crap that people said before, and it is STILL untrue. Let me explain how this works, AGAIN!
Whenever a train crosses the manhattan bridge, that side dips. The work on the bridge is to alleviate SOME of that dipping. It will never entirely dissapate.
When trains ran on the north side, this dipping only occured on the north side. Same for the south. Prior to 1985, (last time both sides were open) the bridge was NOT re-enforced. So, when a "D" train ran on the north side, then the bridge dipped on the north side. Same for the south. The only time the bridge DID NOT DIP was when there were trains at the same point on both the north and south sides of the bridge simultaneously. This is unfeasable for scheduleing. Can you imagine a Q train waiting at canal for it's balancing D train? And then waiting again when that D train crossed ahead of it at DeKalb? Northbound, it's pretty impossible, trains will have to wait on the bridge for their balancing train. This is dumb, isn't it?
The present work is to alleviate dipping by adding larger X bracing, (and other elements I can't remember, it was in the Times). In reality, there will NEVER be an end to Manhattan Bridge work, it will always be in need of repair. The thing is that it should be minor repairs, since we shouldn't have to worry about Deferred maintenance, and the bridge is better equipped to handle it.
This is something that just annoys the hell out of me. It's stupid.
"We have to schedule trains not according to how ridership demands, but to how the Manhattan Bridge tells us to. Let us sacrifice a redbird to the great Manhattan Bridge god for good fortune after 2004!"
Amen to that! Great post!
"We have to schedule trains not according to how ridership demands, but to how the Manhattan Bridge tells us to.
Scheduling involves track topology, as well as ridership demands, for maximum throughput. The DeKalb junction is a case in point. There are 3 tracks north and south of the station in each direction. With a nominal capacity of 30 tph for each track, for a total service level of 90 tph in each direction.
How to achieve this? Assume there are 6 different services, each with 15 tph: Brighton Local; Brighton Exp; West End Local; West End Exp; 4th Ave Local and Sea Beach Exp. Assume the following arrive at DeKalb at the same time: Brighton Local; West End Local and Sea Beach Exp. The Brighton Local goes to 6th Ave via Bridge; the West End Local goes to Nassau St via Tunnel and the Sea Beach goes to Broadway via Bridge (not stopping at DeKalb). Two minutes later the following arrive at DeKalb at the same time: Brigthon Exp to Broadway via Bridge; West End Exp to 6th Ave via Bridge (not stopping at DeKalb) and 4th Ave Local to Broadway via Tunnel. This scheduling has nothing to do with Manhattan Bridge loading but it provides balanced loads on the Manhattan Bridge.
Not all services need 15 tph operation. Reducing some service levels would introduce non-uniform headways which would cause delays due to increased dwell times and throw off the schedules. The method usually employed to avoid operating extra equipment is to size the train length to equalize load levels. This is what the BMT did to keep trains moving through DeKalb with their steel car shortage. Unfortunately, NYCT's link bars prevent such optimum use and passengers must suffer delays inherent with non-uniform headways or less frequent trains.
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. I have always pretty much ignored the whole argument that the Manhattan Bridge is doomed -- it isn't even worth dignifying with a response.
"The work on the bridge is to alleviate SOME of that dipping. It will never entirely dissapate."
All bridges (and structures for that matter) experience some degree of deflection of flexure when a load is applied. That load may be a point source, such as a vehicle, or a nonpoint source such as wind. Some bridges just deflect more than others. Those that deflect more must be able to handle it. And that is what the construction on the Manhattan Bridge has done.
"The present work is to alleviate dipping by adding larger X bracing, (and other elements I can't remember, it was in the Times). In reality, there will NEVER be an end to Manhattan Bridge work, it will always be in need of repair. The thing is that it should be minor repairs, since we shouldn't have to worry about Deferred maintenance, and the bridge is better equipped to handle it."
All bridges require constant repair. However, this is a very different era than the era of deferred maintenance that almost lead to the Manhattan Bridge ending up in the East River.
The mistake was made back when the bridge was built. It is one of the greatest design flaws in 20th Century Civil Engineering. But (no pun intended) it is water under the bridge. We must live with the Manhattan Bridge, it will reopen in 2004, and the bridge with proper maintenance will be able to handle the load.
Matt
This reply is not meant to be a cute reply but a real question:
Let's say the city asked you to design a new bridge. What would your design be like. What kind of bridge, number of tracks, etc.
I'd put up a clone of Hell Gate Bridge. You'd figure a steel arch would flex a lot less than a suspension span.
Might be a bit long for an arch... the longest arches in the world are currently the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Bayonne Bridge, and the New River Gorge Bridge in Fayetteville, WV - all are in the range of 1600-1700 ft main span.
The existing Manhattan Bridge has a main span of a bit over 1700 ft, but an arch would need to be longer since it needs to be anchored solidly into the shorelines on either side.
Bridges in this size range nowadays are typically built as cable-stayed bridges. For rail you'll probably be better off with a tunnel.
Yeah, a tunnel is the real answer.
For the optimal solution? Yeah, I would have to say tunnel too.
Matt
Summary:
Rail: Tunnel is better on several counts. Suspension-type bridges don't bear all that well under concentrated (i.e. not distributed) loads. Bridges over navigable channels need to be high enough to allow ship traffic to pass below and that requires long and/or steep grades which trains don't handle well, certainly requiring a slowdown in speed. Cantilever or truss-type bridges (drawbridges if necessary) seem to be the best for trains, but that wouldn't be a viable solution for the East River due to its width and the frequency of ship traffic underneath.
Vehicles: Bridge definitely. It's cheaper. It doesn't require expensive, power-hungry, maintenance-requiring ventilation. You can put more lanes - 2 or 3 lanes in a single tube tunnel with 2, maybe 3 tubes versus 12+ lanes on a double decked bridge. To the best of my knowledge these are the number of vehicle lanes on NYC area bridges and tunnels:
Tunnels: Battery, Holland, Queens-Midtown: 4. Lincoln: 6
Bridges: Goethals, Outerbridge, Bayonne, most of the smaller Harlem River crossings: 4. Brooklyn, Whitestone, Throgs Neck: 6. Manhattan, Henry Hudson, Tappan Zee: 7 (the first also carries 4 rail tracks). Williamsburg, Triboro, Alexander Hamilton: 8 (the first also carries 2 rail tracks). 59th Street: up to 10 (but usually 8). Verrazano: 12. George Washington: 14 (with space on the lower level for transit tracks, currently unused).
I think that covers most of them. Bridges have more lane capacity than tunnels, all else being equal, and don't require ventilation like vehicular tunnels. Tunnels do better for trains for several reasons.
Matt and others. Here is a contest with no prize.
Design 2 bridges (no photos please unelss they are on a web site)
specs:
first bridge- four subway tracks- need not be on the outside can be double decked- to replace Manhattan Bridge. Must be able to tie into existing subway trackage at both ends.
Second Bridge- three subway tracks- need not be in center. Must tie in to Essex and Marcy. To replace Williamsburgh Bridge. I am adding a thrid track so there could be express service from Essex to Broadway Junction or reroute due to G.O. or disabled trains. I know the thrid track at Marcy would have to be extended.
Both bridges must be fully ADA compatible with pedestrain walkways.
Both bridges could be rail and pedestrian only with new tunnels for vehicles.
Budget for these fantasy bridges is no issue and the NIMBYs do not protest your design (since it is a fantasy bridge).
I will be interested in your comments. We'll let subtalkers decide the "winners".
The rules:
1- must be a bridge of any material or design.
2- must tie into existing subway tracks and have no fewer than 4 tracks for bridge 1` and 3 tracks for bridge 2. All existing stations must be utilized as currently used. ie- No subway station at Marcy with elevator to the elevated Marcy Station.-- Marcy and Essex for bridge 2 and DeKalb and Grand St for bridge 1.
3- must be ADA compliant and have pedestrian and bike access. Vehciels optional.
To cross the East River and provide for the navigation, etc clearances underneath (which are the purview of the Army Corps of Engineers), the bridges must most likely be as tall as the Manny B and Willy B are. The Corps will also insist on shipping channel clearances, thus the river spans must be at least as long as today's bridges are. Thus, the choices for bridges are limited to either long truss (similar to the Betsy Ross and Barry Bridges in the Phila area and the Goethals Bridge in the metro area) or suspension. A cable-stayed variation of the suspension bridge always is good for 'oohs and ahhs' and could also be constructed (similar to that crossing the C & D Canal on DE 1 south of Wilmington).
The train performance difficulty remains (trains having to climb out of subway on either end of the new Manny B and on the Manhattan end of the new Willy B), unless the slope can be 'flattened' to some degree. If existing end conditions (DeKalb Junction and Canal St/Grand St stations on the Manny B, Broadway El and Essex St station on the Willy B) remain as are, this can't be accomplished.
The bridges themselves can be designed with any number of tracks to avoid the swaying problem that hurt the Manny B. On the new Manny B, I would provide crossovers among the 4 tracks to permit better operational flexibility and intermingling among all tracks. For some moves, this might require grade crossing or wrong-railing, but it beats trying to build flyovers, etc, unless I can accomplish this on the approaches and possibly separate the tracks vertically to some degree. I might even want to build a structure 2 tracks wide and make it 2-level to get away from swaying, but this isn't entirely necessary.
If I'm going to all this trouble, I might as well put some vehicular lanes on these bridges anyway (maybe this time putting the tracks in the center of the bridges and the roadways to the outer edges?). Since vehicles can negotiate slopes better than trains, and since (conceivably) I have more leeway in building the roadway approaches, maybe the road can be atop the tracks in a 2-level arrangement.
I tend to believe that, in reality, if I have to build vehicular tunnels, someone somewhere will show me that putting the subway in a nearby tube as part of the overall effort would make much more sense than having separate bridges (especially in the case of the Manny B, where the tracks are already in subway on either end). I know this isn't part of your criteria, but I thought I'd toss it in.
Before we brand the engineers of the great New York subway system, let's keep in mind that the system they designed primarily over seven decades ago is still doing a bang-up job for today's transportation needs. It's hardly their fault that people who could probably be better called 'morons' today (if we wanted to name-call) - our esteemed political leaders - have lacked the foresight to provide sufficient funding to preserve and modernize the system. Before we brand those who manage to keep the system viable (i.e. the engineers) despite the lack of resources given to do this job, let's keep in mind who the real 'morons' are. The reason that the Manhattan Bridge and many other parts of our infrastructure are in the shape they're in isn't because of those who designed and built them. It's more related to those who won't provide the funding to keep them useful.
A new bridge is not appropriate for rail transit. Speeds are faster in a tunnel. A bridge has much more impact on the neighborhoods it comes to earth in, and therefore is much harder politically as well.
A new bridge is not appropriate for rail transit. Speeds are faster in a tunnel. A bridge has much more impact on the neighborhoods it comes to earth in, and therefore is much harder politically as well.
I agree and disagree! Bridges such as you are thinking of, no, they are no longer appropriate.
Bridges the way *I* envision them would work quite nicely thank you.
May bridge connects to what I might call the 34th Street Mall.
I envision an elevated, covered mall the length of 34th street.
1) The street level remains unchanged.
2) a Second level carries an LRV line
3) the third level is the Mall Level, and connects to the buildings along the route.
4) the top level is an open air prominade, with open air type coffee shops etc connected to stores on the Mall Level.
The LRVs leap across the East River on a slender rail-only bridge that arches gracefully across the river.
There is also a two line tunnel connecting to the New Jersey side of the Hudson River.
The LRVs run from large park-and-ride facilities in both Queens and New Jersey. The fare to ride the LRV is included in the parking costs.
There is no fare to board or ride the LRVs within Manhattan... in otherwords, there is no overt fare collection on the system.
This is an integrated midtown development project. It also builds on my proposal that no privately owned automobiles should be allowed in the CBD.
Elias
Of course in addition to the deferred maintenence on the Manhattan Bridge, you are right that the basic design is flawed. First of all a suspension bridge does not lend itself well to rail traffic anyway. But if you must put trains on a suspension bridge, it is better when the tracks are in the middle, such as the Willy B. So the combination of tracks on the outside, deferred maintenece, and the simple fact that the Manhattan Bridge is a suspension bridge, really doomed the poor MB to the problems it has had.
So the combination of tracks on the outside, deferred maintenece, and the simple fact that the Manhattan Bridge is a suspension bridge, really doomed the poor MB to the problems it has had.
Oh! And to add one more thing to that. In a ddition to all the stresses on the MB above, another major problem. The north side of the bridge always had more traffic, increasing the stress even more. When the Broadway tracks used the north side, the south side was less used by the Nassau line tracks. After 1967, the north side had more trains than the Broadway tracks did when they were switched to the south side. More stress on the poor bridge!
Rather than insult people, maybe you could have been nice enough to post a link to the post in which you explained this. I have never seen this explanation before and it would have been nice to have a link to the post in which you made this point. I don't post on this board to be called a moron. I'm not a moron! If you're annoyed by what you're reading and you've explained something before - POST A LINK TO IT! Don't insult people!
I guess nobody's safe from insults on this board.
I'm sorry about that, I really wasn't targeting anyone specific here, and especially not you. It's just this theory that trains must balance the bridge is something that has been said many times, and remains untrue.
I apologize if I offended/insulted you. It was not my intention. I will try to exercise more restraint in the future.
I was simply going along with what I heard. I'm no civil engineer, so I defer to those who I think would know more about the bridge. I'm not going to suggest any ideas for service plans, although I will say this: Given the popularity of the Broadway line on weekends, I believe it should have at least three routes running on it during the weekends, just as it does now.
Broadway is pretty popular, but just how popular is it? I don't think that south of Canal it is in any sort of heavy use. At 34th, it is sharing a stop with 6th av, and at 42nd, it is sharing stops with a LOT of lines.
I seriously believe that both 6th av and Broadway should only have 2 services (Right now, it's 3 to 1). 6th av: D/F, Broadway N/R. D/N via bridge. West End terminating at 36th.
Yes, Broadway below Canal is not hugely popular. It is, however, quite popular between Canal and 34th (and above 34th). The Union Square, NYU and Soho areas generate a lot of ridership. From what I have seen, the 6th Avenue line looks like it's rather quiet below 34th on weekends, even before the 7/22/01 bridge flip. I would see weekend N and R trains pull into the stations full at that time. Weekend R and W trains seem to be a little less crowded now than the N and the R were pre-7/22. It may have to do with express tracks being used by the Q, but then again, it may not, I don't know. But I do know that Broadway is a pretty popular line in Midtown and from 14th to Canal.
I was simply going along with what I heard. I'm no civil engineer, so I defer to those who I think would know more about the bridge. I'm not going to suggest any ideas for service plans, although I will say this: Given the popularity of the Broadway line on weekends, I believe it should have at least three routes running on it during the weekends, just as it does now.
Apology accepted. I can understand if you got annoyed seeing a theory about why the Manhattan Bridge must be balanced that doesn't make sense.
Sacrifice one of MY Redbirds...not on your life. Use a Bombardier trainset with a Bombardier crew...BBD makes 'killah trainsets.' It will be amazing if R142s hold together for five years...it is more amazing that there have been no further 'pull aparts.' R142s will eventually cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars in repairs and lost revenue....just like Grumman/Flexible buses. We in TA will have excellent work for many years to come but the incessant whinings of 'We have no money' is BS...they will find the money come December 15th. Frankly, I'm happy with my salary but really could use a few dollars more...small regular wage increases without the loss of medical benefits would be just fine.
As for bridge engineering in the last century, bridges are designed to flex with thermal changes and load distribution. Fail to remove accumulated water/corrosives and lubricate moving structure'...materiels will buckle and crack. Save a nickel in maintainance...spend a dollar for restoration.
1. I think that the R-142's will hold together for an average of 4.7 years, not 5.
2. Since the 'birds are already being sacrificed to Poisidon, why not give one to the manhattan bridge as well?
3. I know all that stuff about bridge engineering. Bridges are Supposed to flex. So are skyscrapers (Unless you're talking about the Empire State Building, which was built a few times stronger than needed). Most things that we consider stationary are actually moving machines themselves.
Even the Empire State Building is designed to flex an inch or two in a gale.
Gale being the key word.
I know that this is a huge pipe dream (and crazy in this environment), but I have a simple(!) solution to the Manhattan Bridge problem. Just build a 4 track tunnel connecting DeKalb Ave and the Canal St/Grand St stations. Once the tunnel is built, then simply tear down the old Manhattan Bridge, and build a new one. But this would be far too simple and logical in a political/economical environment like NYC. Or is it?
Do you have a spare $10 billion to fund it?
Do you have a plan for the drivers while the bridge is torn down?
Other than those issues, it is the best approach.
Do you have a plan for the drivers while the bridge is torn down?
That's not really an issue. Usually what they when building a new bridge is to build it right next to the old one, so basically no one would be inconvenienced. The old bridge would stay in service right until the point when the new bridge is done.
Do you have a plan for the drivers while the bridge is torn down?
Actually, yes. I plan to EXCLUDE drivers from the CBD completely.
Elias
You realy need to get rid of NETSCAPE 7 on your machine. It messes with your subject line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why tear down the bridge? I say leave it as is!
One option would be to convert the existing rail lines on the bridge into car lanes to allow for additional throughput.
The other would be to leave at least one set of the tracks intact but unused. If some calamity should befall the new tunnel, there will be backup tracks to use! For example, the connection of the Nassau St. Tracks to the Montague tunnel comes in handy - the for example, and remember the J on 4th Ave after 9/11 when the N/R were temporarily put out of commission?
You are out of your f*ckin mind if you want to tear down the Manny B. Put the subway traffic in a tunnel, but preserve the bridge as-is. I guarantee you that a replacement would be 1,000 x more ugly than the Manny B...which is a nice looking bridge. It's been there since 1909, keep up the maintenance and preserve it.
I don't know if I'd agree about the ugly part - if Manny were replaced it'd probably be replaced by a cable-stayed bridge, which are often quite attractive and in any case would make an interesting contrast to its neighbor just to the south!
But I agree absolutely - keep the bridge and the road and foot traffic on it. Rail traffic is better suited to a tunnel in general.
Or how about making the Manhattan Bridge all Subway? Knock out all of the roads. I mean, we could less cars in Manhattan. ;-)
Honestly, I'm for that. You could put six tracks on the Manny B. that way, with room for a layup track or one line just for maintenance vehicles.
You could put six tracks on the Manny B. that way, with room for a layup track or one line just for maintenance vehicles.
Gee, a storage yard in the middle of the East River. :-)
It would make sense to you, no dreaded NIMBY's who keep requiring justification for such proposals. :-)
Gee, a storage yard in the middle of the East River. :-)
This is one of those things that will become possible once the East River is torn down or grade separated. :(:))
Six? I'd think twelve! You have the four existing ones, the road decks above the existing tracks could be converted to four new tracks, and three could be constructed down the center roadway. And you could do a little light rail or monorail thing down the pedestrian walkway on one side...
Of course all the problems the bridge has now would pale in comparison to what'd happen when all these new tracks are added...
What you would have is a very juicy target for the next Osama bin Lousy, whenever he decides to make his appearance. By the way, those fools are not done yet - they are so stupid, that they do ¦yÉknow when to quit. Keep on the alert.
The fact that something is a juicy target for Osama Bin Laden only makes the case stronger that we should build it.
It's a lot better to have them see that we build higher in spite of them, then to see that their work is paying off.
What you would have is a very juicy target for the next Osama bin Lousy, whenever he decides to make his appearance. By the way, those fools are not done yet - they are so stupid, that they do not know when to quit. Keep on the alert.
No way!!!!!!!! That bridge is pretty attractive plus it'll cost 100's of millions, possibly a billion dollars to do that. All they have to do is maintain the current structure more often and the results will be good.
Exprecially after all the reconstruction money they have spent on it in the last decade or two.
I meant "especially".
>>I know that this is a huge pipe dream (and crazy in this environment), but I have a simple(!) solution to the Manhattan Bridge problem. Just build a 4 track tunnel connecting DeKalb Ave and the Canal St/Grand St stations. Once the tunnel is built, then simply tear down the old Manhattan Bridge, and build a new one. But this would be far too simple and logical in a political/economical environment like NYC. Or is it?<<
I dislike the part about tearing down the Bridge. Just reconstruct it and add the tunnel. The MTA can use the submerse tube method for the tunnel and not worry about future problems with the Bridge.
BTW its not really simple political or enviromental wise. In fact there can be alot of uproar from the people who lives in the shadow of this bridge. Plus where are you going to get the money to build it. The city is a lick away from bankruptcy and the MTA has to combine everything just to save a few hundred million a year. And Fema is only here to rebuild Ground Zero.
You can't do that, WPR wants 24/7 Manhattan access, the only way that plan would work would be the swap the 2/5 at night so the 5 can still be the Dyre shuttle and the 2 will return to 241 Street from 1-5 am.
Oh and the thru expresses to Gun Hill (and maybe 241) would have to return as well, while the (5) and (3) would be the WPR locals during rush hours. Dyre having access to Flatbush all times, while WPR gets stuck with Bowling Green? bad idea
What about when there is weekend track work and only one train can run, which will be cut to shuttle service (2) or (5)?
WPR will also lose service because they will no longer have two different lines running on it, an option of 2 or 5
You can't do that, WPR wants 24/7 Manhattan access, the only way that plan would work would be the swap the 2/5 at night so the 5 can still be the Dyre shuttle and the 2 will return to 241 Street from 1-5 am.
Um, no. People would adjust to the new pattern. Careful scheduling would minimize waits at E180th St.
Oh and the thru expresses to Gun Hill (and maybe 241) would have to return as well, while the (5) and (3) would be the WPR locals during rush hours.
No again. The Dyre Ave. line's #2 would be the local, and all the WPR's #5's would run express. The Dyre Ave line has less patronage and has fewer stops north of E180th. It takes exactly the same amount of time for a train to get from Dyre to 3rd Ave going local as it does a train from 242nd St. to 3rd Ave via the thru express. Dyre Ave. riders will bitch and moan, but even more WPR line riders will cheer.
And like the complainers who whined about the G being cut to Court Sq and the V replacing the F along 53rd. St, they'll shut up after a while.
Dyre having access to Flatbush all times, while WPR gets stuck with Bowling Green? bad idea
Why? Most people from the Bronx want Manhattan locations And my service plan would provice service to Flatbush all day long during the week. The #5 would terminate at Bowling Green only on the weekends.
How far express would the #5 go? Considering that you can create a thru express to Gun Hill Road, and a super express to 241 Street Two different express 5 trains, one (super express) would run for about 1 hour during the rush, while the other express would run during middays and early evenings as well.
Also, half the #5 trains can't terminate at Flatbush because there is not enough room, so the #5 will also have to terminate at Utica/New Lots during rush hours.
Wouldn't WPR lose service since 2 lines wouldn't be running on the line? I would still run some diamond local #2 trains to 238 Street during rush hours at least (or you will have to decrease service on the #2 line, which is like the 7th Avenue line's version of the #4 line)
How far express would the #5 go? Considering that you can create a thru express to Gun Hill Road, and a super express to 241 Street Two different express 5 trains, one (super express) would run for about 1 hour during the rush, while the other express would run during middays and early evenings as well.
You're complicating things. All #2's would run to Dyre and run local south of E180th St. All #5's would run to E241 St. and run express south of E180th, and local north.
Also, half the #5 trains can't terminate at Flatbush because there is not enough room, so the #5 will also have to terminate at Utica/New Lots during rush hours.
Nope, the #5 line wouldn't change the number of trains it runs during rush hours, only it's northern terminal. Flatbush Ave already handles 20+ TPH with both the 2 & 5 running there during rush hours. It can certainly handle the combined 12 TPH the 2/5 lines would run during the midday hours.
Wouldn't WPR lose service since 2 lines wouldn't be running on the line? I would still run some diamond local #2 trains to 238 Street during rush hours at least (or you will have to decrease service on the #2 line, which is like the 7th Avenue line's version of the #4 line)
No. No change in the number of trains would be necessary. The whole point of my plan is to simplify service. E180th St can be used as the transfer point between services. No "special" service. Every 2 to Dyre. Every 5 to 241st St.
I don't think Flatbush ever has more than 15 tph or so. Most if not all 5 trains from 238th run to Utica, not Flatbush.
2 #5 trains from Flatbush go to E 238 Street, the 4:10 Flatbush, and the 5:52 Flatbush.
This is true, and during rush hours, this would remain the same. But Flatbush can handle the 12 TPH that the combined 2/5 lines run during the day. All I propose is that the #5 run to Flatbush all day long, something which is certainly feasible.
I think the only reason the 5 terminates at Bowling Green off-peak is that three Brooklyn IRT services suffice then -- i.e., it's not a capacity issue.
I can attest to the need for more midday service on the Nostrand Ave. IRT.
I rarely see off-peak Brooklyn trains with more than a few standees, let alone trains that could reasonably be called crowded, with the exceptions of the Q and L. And peak trains are only crowded in the peak direction. Southbound 2 trains, at least, are packed in the morning rush as far as Wall Street but lose nearly all their passengers there.
Cough it up to different experiences.
Cough it up to different experiences.
Mine are different. #2 trains leaving Flatbush Ave at noon are already filled. This line absorbs a lot of bus transfers from lines feeding the Flatlands and East Flatbush. They empty out to a great extent at Franklin and Nevins to x-fer to Lexington Ave trains. All day #5 service would be welcome. Trust me.
In your experience, are 4 trains crowded in Brooklyn? If not, maybe it would make sense to terminate the 4 at Bowling Green and send the 5 through to Flatbush.
What would go to Utica Avenue then? all those people would have lost direct Lexington Avenue and express service, and they would have to wait forever on the 3.
Remember, I'm talking midday and weekend service. It's a whole one station that loses direct Lex service (as opposed to the entire Nostrand branch), and the 3 runs about as frequently off-peak as any of the other IRT Brooklyn lines.
The trains don't fill up. Running more than three service is wasteful, since other lines elsewhere in the system do get crowded. Both West Side expresses have to run to Brooklyn; that leaves the option of terminating one of the East Side expresses at Bowling Green. Which one? Chris suggests that the 5 run to Brooklyn to serve the Nostrand branch; that leaves the 4 to terminate at Bowling Green.
How about terminating the 5 at Atlantic Avenue like the 1970s?
Then the 4 would have to run local in Brooklyn. The local tracks might get a bit too crowded for comfort in the midday shoulders, and 4 trains waiting to go into the relay at Utica would delay 3 trains.
Plus, it doesn't solve the problem Chris proposed: crowding on the 2 at Flatbush.
I heard that Utica Avenue makes up almost half the ridership on the Utica/New Lots branch, and that stop aparently needs the 4 (as well as the 3)
Lexington Ave service is always heavily patronized in Brooklyn. The problem with the Nostrand Ave line is the crowds who get on at Flatbush. The trains reach capacity before getting to Church Ave.
One possible way to evenly spread out service is to run 3 different Lexington Avenue expresses during the day, each running at a 6 TPH headway (#5 to Flatbush, circle #4 to Utica, diamond #4 to Bowling Green only).
No need to differentiate with a diamond (which is supposed to be rush hour special anyway). Just terminate some #4's at bowling green. The problem that I see with this is that you still have way too many #4's servicing manhattan. 18tph during midday? that's insane!
No need to differentiate with a diamond (which is supposed to be rush hour special anyway). Just terminate some #4's at bowling green.
Better to give some visual way to tell the short #4 apart. It's less confusing than giving it a completely different number.
The problem that I see with this is that you still have way too many #4's servicing manhattan. 18tph during midday? that's insane!
There are currently 16 TPH on the midday Lexington express schedule (10 #4, 6 #5). On any other line you might be right that 18 TPH is excessive. But not this one.
Please tell me when the #4 line is running 18TPH during midday. For that matter, please tell me when the #4 is running 18 TPH during at any point in the day.
I agree with your idea about terminating some #4 trains at Bowling Green. Problem is this; People think that all trains go to Brooklyn, which will result in some people remaining on the train, and others rushing aboard at BG. These passengers will either pull the cord in the South Ferry Loop, or throw a tantrum when they come around on the n/b platform. Either way, they'll tie up s/b service during a vital daypart.
I've taken a few "light" #5 trains from E.180 to Bowling Green during the beginning of rush hour. Once at BG, we go in service for n/b service. I'd like to go in service the whole way, but it'll end up tying the road up at Bowling Green.
Are you sure you haven't slipped into rush hour mode? I don't think I've ever seen a midday IRT train in Brooklyn that could possibly be considered filled to capacity, and I rarely look that far south.
Take a ride on the #2 from Flatbush at 12:30 PM on any given weekday. It's as jam packed as the 4 or 5 running on Lexington Ave at the same time. The 3 and 4 are not nearly as heavily patronized, and having 10 #4's per hour leaving Utica at this time when crowding along Nostrand Ave. means no seats unless you get on at Flatbush is obscene.
The 2 use to run to Dyre years ago.whats stopping them from doing that now? any taker?
Here are my proposals for the IRT:
1/9: I would eliminate the skip-stop sevice because it is silly and it doesn't save much time.
(1) -->Service would stay the same
(9) -->Express stops between 96 St and 157 St (maknig stops at 168,181,191 & Dyckman Sts)then express again to 242 St in the peak direction. I'd probably restore it to a all day train service.
2:Service would stay the same.
3:Service would stay the same.
4:Implement a Jerome Av peak express service similar to the D,5,6 & 7 lines from 125 St (since it skips 138 St in the peak direction) to Burnside Av then all stops to Woodlawn. As other Subtalkers have said, a new line may have to be created to do this.
5:Extend the Bronx thru express service to Gun Hill Rd or IF NECESSARY 238 St or a possible return to 241 St.
6:Extend some rush hour trains & late night trains to South Ferry, offering 2 Manhattan services instead of 1 but South Ferry would have to go through a major rebuild/upgrade.
7:Service would stay the same.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Call the new Woodlawn service the 8. It's kind of ridiculous how the numbers go 6, 7, 9. There should be an 8. That would make Woodlawn the 4/8 line.
Or one half :)
Here are my suggestions. This assumes Manhattan Bridge services restored in 2004.
A - 207 St to Rockaways. Split service between Far Rock. and Rock Park, Express stops between 168 St and Euclid. 6AM to Midnight. Overnights, all stops, Round-Robin service(to Rockaway Park, then to Far Rockaway, then Back to Manhattan).
C - 168 St to Lefferts Blvd. 6AM to Midnight. Overnights - shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts.
E - No change
B - Bedford Park (rush hours), 145 St (all other times except Overnights), Pacific St (Overnights) to Coney Island. Express Stops 59 St Manhattan to 36 St Brklyn. Overnights- all stops.
D - no change
F - no change in Terminals, but changes made in service patterns. Queens- Express stops 179 St to 21 St Queensbridge. Brooklyn- Express stops peak direction Kings Hwy to Jay st. (to Manh. 6am to noon, to Kings Hwy 1pm to 8pm. weekdays.) Local service Church Ave to Coney Is. all other times. Trains run express from Jay st to Church Ave all times except overnights.
V - 179 St to Kings Hwy. Weekdays 6AM to 8PM.
G - Court Sq to Church Ave. After 8 Pm weekdays and all day weekends trains to 179 st.
J - Jamaica to Bay Parkway Weekdays. Weekends to Broad St.
M - Metropolitan Ave to Broad st All times.
Z - Jamaica to Bay Parkway Rush Hours. To Bay Pkwy AM Rush, to Jamaica PM rush. All stops Chambers St to Bay Pkwy. Express Stops, Chambers St to Crescent St ( creative scheduling required.)
Q - Astoria to Brighton Beach via Bway Exp- Brighton Line. Express stops from 57 st to Brighton Beach. 6AM to Midnight weekdays. Summer Weekends- Coney Island Express via Brighton 8AM to 10 pm. No weekend service fall and winter weekends.
N - no change, make trains Bway exp- route trains via Manhattan Bridge between Canal St and DeKalb ave.
R - no change
W - 63 st Lexington to Coney Is. via Montague st tunnel, Sea Beach Line Weekdays 6am to 8PM
I`ll do the IRT lines in another Post.
Your proposals on the the letter lines are good but on the Nassau line (J,M,Z) I have a few comments and suggestions.
I am going to add some things to the Nassau line(J,M,Z) that I left out in my previous post. There are so many improvements you could make to get the Jamaica/Nassau line out of the gloom and doom and make it a faster/attractive line besides the work they did in improving stations between Hewes St and Chauncey St (B'way Junction needs to be brought back to life ;-).
J/Z:I would leave the same terminals but the way it is now BUT here's a few proposals I would make:
(J):a. I would move trains from the express track in Brooklyn(Myrtle-Marcy Av) to the local track to give passengers 2 local services in the portion mentioned above so there would be reduced waiting time.
b. I would let trains go to Broad St all times except late nights, where it could terminate at Chambers
Weekdays: All stops from Broad St to B'way Junction then skip stop service to Jamaica Center
Weekends: All stops from Broad St to Jamaica Center
Late nights: All stops from Chambers St to Jamaica Center
(Z):a. I would make this line a real Nassau St express by having trains skip the Bowery & MAYBE Chambers St since you can catch the 4,5 at Fulton St.(It can't skip Broad because its the terminal & the other stations{Fulton St[A,C,2,3,4,5],Canal St[N,Q,R,W,6] & Essex St[F]} because of important transfer points).
b. By moving J's to the local track, Z's could run express from Marcy Av to B'way Junction and skip stop service would start at B'way rather than Myrtle Av. Would run weekdays rush hours or all day in the peak direction
Weekdays: Express stops from Broad St to Jamaica Center, skip stop from B'way Junction to Jamaica Center
M: Here's my proposal:
(M): Service would stay the same but they should extend that silly shuttle on weekday evenings, weekends and late nights to Manhattan or Hewes St instead of Myrtle Av if:
a.It won't interfere with J service(which it shouldn't) unless there's a GO
b.If more sevice is needed in Manhattan(which I think it does)
Increase service, especially on weekdays. Since R143's are planned to run on the M, maybe that could happen by running R40M's/R42's and R143's as its fleet.
Weekdays(rush): All stops from Metro Av to Bay Pkwy, same as today
" "(midday): All stops from Metro Av to 9 Av, same as today
" "(evenings/nights): All stops from Metro Av to Broad St(evenings to 12AM) Myrtle Av(12AM-6AM) AFTER ALL trains have left Bay Parkway
Weekends: All stops from Broad St(if needed) or Hewes St to Metro Av except late nights where it would be a shuttle from Myrtle Av to Metro Av.
What do you think? I would like your opinions on this.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Here's part 2, The IRT and the L train:
L - Create an "X" train and introduce skip-stop between B'way Jct and 1st Ave.
1 - no change
9 - Peak direction express 242st to 96st local below 96 st
2 - no change
3 - Run trains to New Lots 24/7.
4 - Introduce Peak direction express on Jerome Ave designated as the 8
run trains to Utica ave 24/7. Rush hour trains from New Lots.
5 - Dyre av to Flatbush weekdays 6am to 8 pm. All other times to South Ferry. Introduce "10" train- 238 st to Flatbush Ave SB in morning, NB in evening. Express stops in Bronx and Manhattan.
5 trains run express in Bronx bet 149 St and 180 st SB 6am to noon, NB 1pm to 8pm, weekdays.
6 - no change
7 - no change.
That's it. Anyone who want to differ?
Here's what I would do. (I have 2 previous posts 1 for the IRT & 1 for the BMT/IND. I'm comparing your suggestions to my suggestions.)
L: Its a good idea but I would leave service the way it is(unless the need comes)
1: Service would stay the same
2: Service would stay the same
3: In a previous post I said I would leave 3 service unchanged. I would make it a shuttle from 96 St to 148 St in the late nights, eliminating that shuttle bus and giving late night riders 10 min headways via Lenox Av
4: Create a new peak direction sevice between 125 St and Burnside Av or Kingsbridge Rd/Bedford Park Blvd(I forgot which one has switches to/from the express track)if the 4 is express
As yourself & others have said, a new 8 train would be created. Would run from 149 St/Grand Concourse to Woodlawn if the 8 is the Jerome express(see 4 above) would run in that pattern BUT it starts from 149 St/Grand Conc.
5: You say you would bring service to South Ferry other times (Evenings, weekends, nights) Its sounds good but South Ferry would have to go through a major rebuild/upgrade for that plan to be possible. I would leave its current terminal at Bowling Green off hours. Extend Bronx thru service to Gun Hill Rd or 238 St if necessary. A return to 241 St would be nice
6: Extend some 6's rush hours & all late night 6's to South Ferry, providing 2 Manhattan services instead of 1 but like the plan for 5's South Ferry would have to go through a major rebuild/upgrade for this plan to be possible
7: Service would be the same
9: Eliminate that silly skip-stop service, which saves LIKE 4-5 minutes and run 9's express in the peak direction from 96 St to 157 St, stopping at 168,181,191 and Dyckman Sts then express to 242 St. Would be restored to a all day service weekdays 6AM-9PM {6AM-12PM SB, 12:30PM-9PM NB}.
What do you think?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Running the F express from Jay to Church all times except nights, leaves those local stops with only the G on weekends. Could run into problems there.
Also, Broadway needs to have more than the N and the R on weekends. It is a heavily used line on weekends and should have at least three services.
restore the front RAILFAN WINDOW....relax all restrictions on those
of us who shoot videos in the subway system !!
give out permits like they used to do before 9-11 ...!!
What country and city currently holds title to the longest single-ride trolley route in the world?
Joe: Prior to its being bustituted SEPTA's #23 Germantown Avenue held the record at 12.8 miles with #50 Rising Sun Avenue coming in second at 10.8 miles. The longest SEPTA trolley line today is #101 Media at 8.6 miles.
The 1992 Light Rail Annual reported that the San Diego Trolley was 34.5 miles long.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I appreciate your answer and you were correct with the information given, but my question asked and pertained to the current - today's - record holder. What country and city currently has the longest one-way trolley trolley route? The person who knows the answer can probably also post how long, in hours and minutes, that one way trip takes.
San Diego Trolley had (at that time) a total of 34.5 route miles. That was two routes...from SD to the border about 20 miles, and the other out to El cajon at 14 miles. (SDT has had extensions since then, so their mileage may vary...)
I assume that trackless trolleys (electric trolley buses) are not included in this discussion?
23 had to be longer than that...where was the southern terminus? That is more like 20-25 miles, if im not mistaken.
I scaled off a map it seems to be 12-13 miles long, maybe 14. Definitely not 20 or 25.
Chuck Greene
Chris: Rt 23 Germantown Avenue ran from Chestnut Hill Loop in Germantown to 10 & Bigler Streets in lower Philly.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And you'll be able to ride the 23 with a PCC on Sunday, October 27
as far south as Snyder Avenue on the Rockhill Trolley Museum Excursion.
See upcoming events for details.
;| ) Sparky
What do you consider a trolley? City line? Interurban?
Either or a combination. Also, as a purely personal opinion, the term "light rail" is the quite ridiculous, and not understood by the majority of the general public. I believe that the term "trolley" should have been retained, or at the very least "interurban" could have been used, as most new generation lines generally operate between large cities and other population centers, such as Salt Lake City and Sandy, Portland and Gresham, or Los Angeles and Long Beach. Automobiles are still called automobiles, buses remain just that and airplanes retained that nomenclature. All are modernized - except the name. And everyone knows what they are..... But light rail? How can you in any way, shape or form compare the JFK Airtrain, for example, to the Hudson-Bergen route, even though both are called "light rail." It's just, I believe, a marketing name with no substance, dreamed up by someone in an attempt to justify his salary.
To his everlasting credit, the father of the San Diego Trolley, State Senator James Mills, insisted on the appellation "trolley" rather than "light rail" for the new San Diego rail system. The term stuck and certainly hasn't hindered the success of San Diego Trolley.
It's gone now, of course, but in its day, I believe Chicago's 36 Broadway-State line was longer than Philadelphia's 23 Germantown.
"Light Rail" is a useful industy term to include various modes of pulbic transportation. Most of the older terms are too limiting:
Interurban: many lines do not run between cities or from cities to other population centers (eg: SF Muni).
Trolley: this would exclude those line that operate by 3rd rail, understreet cable, or understreet power (if any still exist).
Streetcars: this is probably the best term, although it seems very odd applying it to something like the Green Line in LA, which runs in the middle of a freeway, or the new JFK AirTrain.
So, the industry term tends to be used a lot these days because it is more inclusive as well as seeming modern. At least, "heavy rail" has been limited to the industry.
Under what possible criterion can the JFK AirTrain be considered "light rail". From what I've observed it's built to the standards of conventional rapid transit.
Under what possible criterion can the JFK AirTrain be considered "light rail". From what I've observed it's built to the standards of conventional rapid transit.
The car's weight per linear foot is under 1,000 lbs making it lighter than a PCC of comparable length.
That's as good a definition as any.
only until the notoriously heavy Bredas ib SF are compared to the CTA 6000's
True, true..
"I believe that the term 'trolley' should have been retained,"
In the same way that the public retains steam-train terms and references ("choo-choo", news stories where trains "chuff" and "chug") for modern diesel and electric trains?? No thanks. IMHO, that contributes to the, alas, not-uncommon perception that rail, in some or all of its forms, is old-fashioned and irrelevant to the modern world.
Old terms create old images in the public's mind -- which is fine if that's the image you WANT for a particular line or system -- while newer terms create newer, more modern, more vital images. "Trolley" creates the image in many minds of something that looks like a San Francisco open-air cable car (yes, **I** know that's not a trolley) or one of the phoney gas-powered "trolleys" (why do you think the phoneys look like that in the first place?). Therefore, IMHO, a heritage line like Memphis' or Seattle's that uses old or replica-old trolleys *should* be called a trolley, while a line that uses modern equipment, extends beyond tourist areas into the day-to-day neighborhoods, and is predominantly used for commuting and not sightseeing should be called light rail.
Using this so-called logic, with which I do not agree, could you be kind enough to establish terms for current-day autombiles, buses, airplanes and ships (or boats)? The first three have been around almost a century using the same terminology, while "ships" or "boats" goes back much further than the century mark. Another term I'd suggest for a trolley would be "modern trolley" or "contemporary trolley."
By the way, no one has come up yet with the longest current day (modern) trolley line in the world, although one gentleman has come close. A little clue: the Federal Railway Administration, whose stagnant policies, in my opinion, come from an early time in another century, appears to believe to that a system of this type could ever exist in this country, even though it has a perfect safety record about 15 years old in the transit and railway-progressive country (soon to be countries) where it currently operates.
>>> could you be kind enough to establish terms for current-day autombiles, buses, airplanes and ships <<<
There is no real reason to establish new names for those three items because they are more generic than "trolley." Trolley is more like "horseless carriage", "motor stage", "flying machine", and "packet". "Trolley" by itself has traditionally referred to single railed vehicles taking power from an overhead wire with a wheeled device. More general terms are "street car" and "tram."
The light rail vehicles in San Diego are much too large to be considered trolleys, in the conventional sense. I think they are called trolleys just because the alliteration of "Tijuana Trolley" was just to good to pass up.
Tom
Tom: The term that I get a kick out of is people-mover. That could be anything from a dirigible to a rowboat.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> The term that I get a kick out of is people-mover <<<
To me people mover conjures an image of a continuously moving operation, either a moving walkway, or continuously moving seats with a way to board and alight, usually to a moving walkway.
Tom
Joe - you seem to be hinting that you already know the answer to your question, which someone else also suggested you did. We've already had a suggestion of a 92 km (about 55 miles) line in Germany - can you better that?
Fytton.
Yes, I do know the answer and it'll be posted in time. I've visited this country/city quite often recently. To photograph this fantastic system would take a minumum of 2-3 weeks to do it properly.
So... Where is it?
Sofia? Brussels? Zagreb? or in the former USSR?
This thread reminded me of the private line (Badner Bahn) in Vienna, Austria.
But found out it was not that long.
Does anyone know if the Badner Bahn had dining cars? I couldn't find much info on the net. But I remember an article about it. Tramways (Trolleys) with dining facilities... One was in Austria or former West Germany and the other was the Electroliner of the North Shore.
The former should have kept this service well into the 70s.
If you'll allow interurbans, I'd vote for the South Shore Line (NICTD, Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District). Although the rolling stock is far from lightweight, it always has been an interurban and still runs 91 miles from Randolph St. Station in Chicago to the South Bend terminal.
-- Ed Sachs
Thank you Ed, but I'd really believe this is more of a heavy commuter rail operation rather than a true interurban. While it certainly does connect population centers, so do other systems such as the LIRR, Metro North and SEPTA, all of which use similar equipment but are not considered interurbans.
I presume Joe Saitta already knows the answer. I'll offer Karlsruhe to Heilbronn, about 92 km. I think that's longer than the Liberty Bell Limited, and longer than Hillsboro-Gresham. Wantagh Joe
The Melbourne number 86 Colonial Stadium - Bundoora route must be among the longest, if we are talking about a pure, classic street railway, without any "light rail" pretentions. I don't have the precise length, but I'd estimate 40 km. Travel time is 64 minutes.
Has this thread died (October 16)? I would still like to read Joe Saitta's answer to the question he posed. Joe McMahon
On October 4 Joe Saitta said he knew the answer and it would be posted "in time".
Maybe it is time now? Stop the suspense before we all lose interest!
What are or will be the requirements for next year's exam as far as work experience is concerned?
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/shuttle/ts-s04.jpg
Although this says that it was taken on the shuttle platform, it was not, it is from the broadway irt platform(1239)
So where was this pic taken?
Here too...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-4301a.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-4501a.jpg
They're the same car. They are both 4501. The other side of 4501...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40m-4501b.jpg
There is one thing that foamers and busheads agree on -- we hate those buses disguised as fake trolleys. And we've stuck with a "tourist trolley" running right here in Prospect Park.
So for a couple of years, I've been thinking about a cost effective replacement. It thought about a trolley, but that would require lots of expensive and dangerous electric infrastructure, and if we are going to get one, it will probably be on Bob D.'s route. I thought about installing remote control gates at park entrances and rerouting real buses through the park, even when it is closed to cars.
Now that I know the proper word for it, I've got a new idea -- a Prospect Park Horsecar. The tracks would be easy to install -- level with the road to avoid a problem for auto traffic, and no electric power required. Like the fake trolley, it would run when the park is closed to cars, evenings and weekends. And it would have a historic angle.
I'd put the stable/barn on Breeze Hill, a seldom-visited area in the middle of the park that was once carriage parking for those attending concerts in the Concert Grove (where the skating rink is now). Perhaps the stable could be leased to a professional stable operator for a nominal sum, in exchange for the care and feeding for the horsecar's horses.
Crossing the road, the tracks would exit the park in the Willink Entrance near the intersection of Flatbush, Ocean, and Empire -- across Flatbush from a back entrance to the Brooklyn Botanic Garden. The Prospect Park stop on the Brighton is right there. The tracks would run up the east side of Flatbush Ave along the park in the (little-used) sidewalk right of way, with stops at the Lefferts Homestead, the Prospect Park Zoo, and the Brooklyn Public Library (also a short walk to the Brooklyn Museum) at Grand Army Plaza. The grade of Flatbush is more steady and less steep than that on the East Drive, which features a steep rise through the Battle Pass. If double teaming up the hill is required, the additional horses could be led back to the stable within the park.
Re-entering the park at the Main Entrance off Grand Army Plaza (which also features a big farmers' market on Saturday), the line would run on the inner lane of the West Drive with stops at each entrance, the Picnic House, the Bandshell, each permimter playground, and near the Prospect Park stop on the F-train. Tracks on the inner lane, though level with the pavement, would encourage cars to use the outer lane -- away from the lane for joggers and bicycles -- when traffic volume permits.
The tracks would run down the West Lake drive (a 60 foot drop over 1,200 feet or so -- brakes required), and around the South Lake Drive, with stops at the Parade Grounds and the Ice Skating Rink, before returning to the Barn and Stable via a hand-throw switch.
The Horsecar could be a visual reproduction inside and out, but would use modern materials and equipment -- like a stainless steel undercarriage and pneumatic fail-safe emergency brakes powered by charged canisters -- for weight, safety, and durability. The fare would be the same as the subway fare, but with no free transfer. If tourists will pay what they do for those carriage rides in Manhattan, many people will surely pay that much to move around the park. There could be frequent user discounts -- for ice skaters, for example.
And leading the inaugral run? Why the Clydesdales of course! Bottoms up to yet another dream.
But then you're going to have all the crybabies bitching and moaning about the horseshit from the live horses pulling the trolley. They go whenever and wherever they want to....
"Fresh Country Scent" made daily ... :)
Sorry if I'm back too many years, bur do they still have a riding stable in Prospect Park?
When I lived near the Parade Grounds until 1965 you regularly walked around (or in) horse poop when you entered the park from Parkside Avenue. Ditto on the bridle path on Ocean Parkway.
I never heard anyone complain then, but maybe we're all more "refined" now.
The bridle path on Ocean Parkway has been gone for years.
There were once many stables off Caton Avenue, as you know and I've been told. There is now one, in poor repair, being leased by one operator. The operator keeps afloat by using a non-profit to obtain volunteers, who do most of the work in exchange for the use of the horse. The building was almost sold off for development some years ago, eliminating horseback riding in the park once and for all.
My daughters decided that they want to take horseback riding lessons, and they've been doing it since July. It's expensive, the lesson doesn't happen half the time because the volunteer teen doesn't show, and they aren't any good -- they just get led around in the ring in the building. But they love it and it's very important with them to be with the animals, so I put up with it.
Standing around smelling the manure for a half hour at a time, I came up with the horsecar idea. The guy could really use a new stable, inside the park and safe from redevelopment, in any event. And horsecar rides, sleigh rides, etc could probably cover costs at this point once the capital cost was absorbed.
Of course, you'd have to drive, but the family-owned stable near Belmont Lake State Park charges $30 for a 25-minute lesson, one-on-one. They have indoors and out, and when the kids are skilled enough they can ride in the adjacent park.
They move at their own pace. My older daughter (10 when she started) was allowed to ride without a walker the third lesson. Some kids "get it" fast, most after a while, and a very few never do.
You can buy ten lessons at a 10% discount and don't have to schedule the same time and instructor every week. I usually tip the instructor $5.00 in addition.
Also, they start with a small "easy" horse (usually Yoda), then when they're comfortable they change horses often. After all, a good equestienne should be able to handle any beast. Good training for handling boyfriends. :)
How old are your girls? If they like riding, they'd probably love this place.
(How old are your girls? If they like riding, they'd probably love this place. )
They are 8 and 10. The charge at Kensington Stables is $25 for 30 minutes. That's an hour to me. Not including the 15 minutes there and the 15 minutes back. It might be worth a drive if it was all they did, but there is soccer (one game each, plus I "volunteer" to ref two), Girl Scouts, Irish Dancing (the wife is half Irish), and piano. Looking over the cost and time committment, I asked the older one what she would give up if she had to give up something. She mentioned her younger sister.
Anyway, despite having daughters rather than sons, I have tried to pass on the infrastructure bug. I once asked my older daughter what she would show a friend visiting NYC for the first time. She mentioned a walk we took when the Manhattan Bridge first opened over the bridge (looking at the trains), lunch in Chinatown, back over the Brooklyn Bridge. Subway to from Downtown Brooklyn and home, of course.
I've even thought of a game for them to play when they are old enough to travel the city alone -- "Transit Mania." I'd give them and some of their friends a list of destinations, digital cameras, and unlimited ride cards, and see who could plan and make the trip (with proof) first.
A "give up" for Lent? Why, my "younger sister", of course. I'm laughing so hard, I can't breathe. Your daughter has a future in stand up.
We went horseback riding on our trip to Phoenix in August. It was te first time I'd been on a horse since my ankle-biter days, and let me tell you it was a lot of fun! What I still can't get over is the, er, excretory capacity of a horse - if there are horsecars in Prospect Park, the city won't have to buy nearly as much fertilizer anymore ()-)
In Cape May, the horses wear diapers. No fertilizer in unexpected areas.
--Mark
Many years ago, I had some friends who were into practical joke kinds of hoaxes. They were flying saucer fans and knew quite a few people and organizations with what would now probably now be called "alternative" religious and scientific ideas.
Anyway, one of them took out an ad in a pulp magazine (forget which one) saying that he represented a society called something like "The Society for Animal Decency." It talked about how scandalous it was that our young people should travel through farm country (this was the '50s) and see NEKKID ANIMALS!!! Hew proposed that people prevail upon their politicians to clothe these animals, at least with shorts, if not more.
He hoped to write about the letters he expected to get in a fanzine. Instead, he began getting checks in the mail from supporters. Wisely, he got scared considering what would happen if he cashed any of the checks, returned them and gave up the "quest."
Nowadays, somebody like that would probably parlay it into a major organization, and be featured on CNN and Fox.
Steve Hoskins wrote:
> But then you're going to have all the crybabies bitching and
> moaning about the horseshit from the live horses pulling the
> trolley. They go whenever and wherever they want to....
So, how do they handle the problem with the carriage horses working Central Park? The arrangement I've seen in other cities involves a sort of catcher bag suspended below the critical bit of the horse's anatomy; I imagine the same system could be adapted to horsecars.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Brilliant!
>>> . Perhaps the stable could be leased to a professional stable operator for a nominal sum, in exchange for the care and feeding for the horsecar's horses. <<<
Are there equestrian trails in the park? If not, what horses beside those used for the horse car would be stabled there? No one is going to lease the stables, no matter how nominal the amount without some income coming in. Many years ago in my misspent youth I was a stable hand, and know that there needs to be economies of scale in running the stable. It would be very expensive to run for the horse car horses only.
Tom
Are there equestrian trails in the park?
Are there equestrian trails in the park?
Used to be. Maybe still?
Yes, the bridle paths are still there, and still well used, but not as much as they were, as explained in the prior post.
>>> the bridle paths are still there, <<<
Seeing your post about the riding lessons reminded me how increasing liability has cut down on rental rides. Back in the ‘60s there were several stables near Griffith Park where all you had to do was sign a waiver and tell the stableman that you were an experienced rider to rent a spirited horse to ride on the approximately 50 miles of trails in Griffith Park. I and a few friends would rent early Saturday morning and ride all day. (Renting any time after noon on Saturday until Tuesday morning meant getting an exhausted horse who could go no faster than a walk.). The last time I looked a few years ago, there was only one rental stable and they would only allow riders to go in a group with wranglers fore and aft to look after them.
My father had told me of similar riding in Central Park during the ‘20s.
Tom
(Seeing your post about the riding lessons reminded me how increasing liability has cut down on rental rides.)
There are prominent posts at the last Prospect Park stable saying they have no insurance. If someone wins a lawsuit, they just fold up and that's it.
(Seeing your post about the riding lessons reminded me how increasing liability has cut down on rental rides.)
There are prominent posts at the last Prospect Park stable saying they have no insurance. If someone wins a lawsuit, they just fold up and that's it.
Not so simple. Sure, there is a certain inherent danger in most activirties, including horseback riding. But any activity can become unnecessarily dangerous if the owners are negligent.
IANAL, but in business a long time. Even if they're incorporated, they couldn't count on a statement like that. There is a phrase: "piercing the corporate veil." That means that if a corporation is negligent in an egregious way, they can't just say "OK, you now own an old computer and some sawdust. Bye." They can come after everything the corporate officers own.
I would take a sign telling people they have no insurance as being pretty damning if there were a serious accident and there was provable negligence. It implies that they felt free to be negilgent because they figured you couldn't get anything out of them.
I would imagine that someone injured while riding a horse from the (uninsured) Prospect Park stable would go after the city.
>>> There are prominent posts at the last Prospect Park stable saying they have no insurance. <<<
Many places will not license a business dealing with the public without liability insurance.
Tom
Larry, I like the idea a lot and would love to see it happen.
I think, though, that you need to demonstrate that it could pay for itself out of the farebox, because the horses have to be cared for 24/7/365. Otherwise you need some other assured source of funding.
I wouldn't ordinarily ask this for a park ride, but you might want to consider training volunteer B/Os or T/Os to take these runs in season. You need someone professional to operate an animal railway. It takes some amount of skill to handle the horses. It may not be rocket science, but even something as simple as knowing when to apply and release the brakes to avoid straining the animals is important. I wouldn't want to trust this to a kid that they pull off the carousel in a pinch. It's not the same as walking kids around a circle on a fair pony.
Remember that horses can only be worked so long continuosly, so you need a larger stable than just one horsecar = one horse. They also need grooming, etc. I suppose the zoo's veteranians could take care of their health needs.
I dount we could do it for $1.50 a pop. Maybe a day pass of $5.00, ride all you want?
Anyway, I'd love to see this!
(Anyway, I'd love to see this! )
Perhaps I'll send in the idea with my next contribution to the Prospect Park Alliance, and advocacy group. They are dominated by Olmstead Crazies, who don't want anything that deviates from the original design. But the perimeter roadway was orignally build for horse and buggy, so having horses and carriages there is "authentic." As a railfan, of course, I'd want a horsecar on rails.
Money? Maybe if you bring in Clydesdales, Bud would pay for the car. Someone would have to lay the track. If you built the stables for an operator, and included the care of the horses in the rent, that takes care of that (the stables are the big cost).
I'm afraid that the city is broke, and the capital budget is about to collapse. But maybe if the fantasizing starts now, it might be a real proposal by the time of the next economic boom.
will be there when the PETA hippies find out about your abouse of our four footed friends.
TEATS! Count *ME* in! Let the liber-rails eat each other (extra tip involved HERE) ... Bambi MUST die, but I'll always honk for some hooch. :)
I don't wear FUR, I shoot it. Heh.
Yes you upstaters with your montgomery ward catologs and plain trooper hats.
Heh. They killed off MonkeyWarts, but we GOTS Wal*Mart "style" ... heh.
Oi veih...like I really need this...and I do. I need some naked chicks and naked wimmen Car Inspectors...but not the ones engrossed in trough feedings. As for Bambi, one klick, one kilometer, one kill...KKK. Carlos Hackathorn is my hero and Charelton Heston remains my President. Precision machinery, excellent metrology and devotion to work is what TA NEEDS. Black Bear is another problem...I'm not around with rubber buckshot...put red pepper in the bird feeders. 'Garand in Hand,' CI Peter
In the early 1980's the village of Northport, LI, NY had a horsecar drawn by two horses that went all the way down Main Street and turned around by Woodbine Ave. This was on pre-existing trolley tracks in the street and was designed as a "tourist attraction".
It only lasted about 2-3 summers and failed due to lack of patronage.
It was also very hard on the horses because the up-hill grade is steep and very long.....To get an idea see Kevin Kline furiously bicycling to see Joan Cusack in the movie "In and Out'
There's no car house for that trackage (though you can seethe switches where the carhouse was).
Where did they put the car when it was out of service? That track is all on the street.
BTW, they might try it again. People are more into local amenities than in the '80s.
I'm sorry I missed it. Hope they try again.
pictures from the 1971 R40M GG accident are under 4501 and 4301. They are obviously the same car, so which number was right at the time that the accidentr took place
The R-40M unmber was 4501, while 4301 was (and is) a car number for the Slant R-40 series (the non-AC version at that time).
I thought the 4150-4249 series were the slants with only fans originally.
200 were fan only slants
100 were A/C slants
100 were A?C straits
...and to confuse the issue even more (and I believe Wayne has the numbers here), IIRC, the 100 A/C slants were orignially delievered with the first 100 numbers in the R-40 series, which were then changed to the last 100 numbers in the series (4350-4449), after all 300 cars were on TA property. The R-40Ms, meanwhile, always were 4450-4549, except for a few cars that were being used as test cars and were given non-sequential numbers with letter prefixes.
So does that explain why this new R40M is numbered "CB23"?
That's the reason.
>>So does that explain why this new R40M is numbered "CB23"?<<
I think some cars were numbered in the "CB" series to test Cobra brake shoes. Some R1-9's were tested in a similar fashion with wierd temporary numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
They also had cars like "AS18" "AS19" etc. These were R40M. AND I also saw some of these numbers applied to R36 Mainline cars, one of which was photographed on the #1. I never saw that numbering applied to any of the R-1/4/6/7/9's.
wayne
>>I never saw that numbering applied to any of the R-1/4/6/7/9's.<<
I saw a photo taken through a window of what must have been a fantrip through East NY yard. The "arnines" had white number boards with black letters/numbers. I may have my car classes mixed up, but they may have been roller bearing test cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
Might have been work motors ... DEFINITELY test trains of some sort. Traditional white on black for revenuers ... maybe a couple of the ones sent over to LIRR for "snow duty" when the "A1A's" (I *swear* they were called that before the "M-1" designation) when they crapped out after sucking snow into the motors ... Arnines did a good bit of duty on the LIRR in winter when I was there ... and they were signed up special for the task. They were also used for hauling NYCTA test trains and shipments.
I know of M501 and M502 at least, equipped with MCB couplers for the task ... there were more of them.
I had thought that the first 100 slants had only fans and the next 200 slants came with A/C.
Nope, only 100 Slants had A/C.
Here are the ORIGINAL numbers in order.
4150-4199 Slant, non a/c, retained their original numbers
4200-4249 Slant, non a/c, retained their original numbers
4250-4299 R40M, renumbered 4450-4499
4300-4349 R40M, renumbered 4500-4549.
Some of these originally had brake test numbers (CBxx, ASxx etc)
4350-4399 Slant, non a/c, renumbered 4250-4299
4400-4449 Slant, non a/c, renumbered 4300-4349
4450-4499 Slant, A/C, renumbered 4350-4399
4500-4549 Slant, A/C, renumbered 4400-4449.
Brake test (((NOTE THESE ARE THE ORIGINAL R40M NUMBERS)))
Don't have numbers for these, maybe Larry-Redbird33 does.
AS10-11
AS16-17
AS18-19
AS20-21
AS22-23
AS24-25
CB22-23 = 4320-4321 ~ (4520-21)
CB20-21 = 4318-4319 ~ (4518-19)
CB32-33 = 4330-4331 ~ (4530-31)
CB34-35 = 4332-4333 ~ (4532-33)
Hope this helps
wayne
I just posted that in a response before I read this.
The accident occurred on May 20, 1970. The car number had already been changed from 4301 to 4501.
wayne
What GG accident? Where can I go to read up on it?
It happened on May 20, 1970 on the switch outside Roosevelt Avenue. Basically what happened was a disabled GG train collided with a moving GG train as the latter switched from the express to the local tracks. The disabled train was being operated from the third car; and it had "keyed by" the red signal, not being aware that the moving train was switching into its path. The first car of the disabled train pushed the fifth car of the moving train off the tracks and the forward end of this car came into contact with the curtain wall. Two thirds of the car's right side was sheared off and two people were killed.
Units involved: R40M #4501, R16 #6304
wayne
I remember reading somewhere that the IND provided a direct link the the 1939 World's Fair. Where did the spur leave the Queens Line, and what was the route of the ROW? Also, since the IND used the letter system, what route provided the service on the World's Fair service?
I also remember vaguely that they wanted to send that spur to LaGuardia. It's a shame they didn't follow up on that.
Chris
A *delightful* page on it right here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/worldsfair/
Very Interesting. And from the look of this photo, it seems that the E provided the service, I wonder from where though, as I don't think the Fulton Subway was fully open yet, the one time home of the E's southern terminal.
Isn't that now the Van Wyck Expressway?
Yep, it sure is.
The World's fair train ran from Chambers St/Hudson Terminal via 8th Avenue to the fair - you had to pay an additional fare at exit. Map of services is here thanks to the "JoeKorner" ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/h-m39wf2.gif
The E ran from Church Ave via the 8th Ave-Houston St line and did not stop at Chambers-Hudson Terminal during the 1939-1940 Worlds Fair. That H&M map showed only those subway lines that had convenient transfers to the H&M lines.
Worlds Fair Station was serviced by E, EE and GG trains.
I sit corrected then ... the information I found was limited, so I assumed that based on map traditions of the time (you show us and we'll show you) that Hudson Terminal was a direct origin of the line. As a former "IND" employee, I know that at the time, the IND would have originated the train THERE, but then again, wasn't around at the time myself, so it's "hearsay" ... no offense taken, for what it's worth.
A four-car train on the E! Could you imagine that today?
IIRC that's a photo of a test train. I'm sure they ran longer trains to the fair once revenue service began.
From my book "Subway to the World's Fair" by Frederik Kramer, the World's Fair line was mostly served by the GG train, with the E running as a special during high patronage hours.
This book is also chocked full of pictures of the line as it was when operated, including the terminal. A must have for railfans.
There is a 32-page softbound book on the subject, "Subway to the World's Fair" by Frederick A. Kramer, illustrated, published by Bells & Whistles of Westfield, NJ, 1991. No doubt it's out of print, but I've seen it offered on eBay from time to time. It covers both BMT and IND, with emphasis on the IND's line through the swamp.
I have it. I bought it from Amazon.com in early 2000. It's a great source of info on this subject.
Have a look at my History of the IND right here on this site. Scroll down to the section called "The World's Fair Railroad" for a description of the services. It says:
On April 30th, 1939 at 10:56AM, the line opened. The GG provided the bulk of the service between Smith/9th Streets and the Fair, and at the close of the evening rush hour, it was augmented by E express service between the Fair and Hudson Terminal. Service generally ran until 1:00am.
--Mark
Were there any other part-time stations at the time? More recently, all stations were open full-time until 1992, when the late night 3 shuttle turned into a bus and the weekend J was cut back to Canal.
There were no stops along the route between 71/Continental and the World's Fair.
I know -- I'm asking if there were any part-time stops anywhere in the system (systems, really, pre-Unification).
I don't believe there were any part time stations or stops in the subway many years ago. Maybe the closest were the stops on the BRT that were for the Brooklyn racetracks. I was going to say the Dyre line. But those are part time booths. Not stations.
Don't forget that the "Aqueduct Racetrack" stop on the Rockaway line has been part time since it opened.
There were two planned, though, one at Jewel Ave, and I don't remember where the other one was supposed to be. They were never built though.
--Mark
Here's the map:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/indwfmap.jpg
GP-38: The World's Fair Railroad was in service from April 30,1939 to November 1,1939 and from May 11,1940 to October 28,1940. Service was provided 24 hours a day by GG trains. During the 1940 season E train service was also provided on Saturday and Sunday evenings leaving the Fair from 824pm to 129am and arriving at the Fair from Hudson Terminal from 949pm to 118am. Note that these E trains ran between the World's Fair and Hudson Terminal supplementing the then regular E service between 169 Street and Church Avenue. This service may also have been provided during the 1939 season but I cannot say so for certain.
I have some question about the use of the "S" sign however. The only pictures that I have seen of a train on that line were of a test train taken prior to openning. It was a four car test train signed up "S" World's Fair on the north end and "E" 8 Avenue on the south end. Note that it was a daytime picture and E trains only ran to the Fair on weekend evenings. It may have been that trains operating to the Fair carried "S" signs only on the front bulkheads because there is never any mention of the "S" surplanting the GG when the Fair was open. Also on the aforementioned weekend evenings it would have been necessary to differentiate between the E and GG since both services ran from the Fair at the same time. Perhaps on of our older members who actually rode the service could provide definite information.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info! I never realized that the GG was the train that provided the bulk of the service. Funny, considering the GG didn't even go to Manhattan. I guess that is why occasional evening E's gave a little bit of an extra service for direct Manhattan service. Although the Manhattan passengers would have had three chances to switch at either Queens Plaza, Roosevelt, or Continental.
Chris
>>> Although the Manhattan passengers would have had three chances to switch at either Queens Plaza, Roosevelt, or Continental. <<<
They could also take the Flushing line, either IRT or BMT. Remember, in those days there were few transfers between the three companies, so your destination would largely determine which line you rode. The purpose of the IND line was not to better serve the fair going public, but to allow the IND to get a piece of the action.
Tom
Sometimes I wonder what were the few transfers on the subway? Prior to unification in 1940, I understand there were only a few. But they were difficult to find or to use.
>>> I wonder what were the few transfers on the subway? Prior to unification in 1940 <<<
AFAIK, the only free transfer prior to unification was the IRT-BMT de facto free transfer anywhere beyond Queensboro Plaza toward Flushing and Astoria
The IND-IRT transfers at 155th Street (Polo Grounds) and 161st Street was started when the the 9th Avenue El closed at unification in 1940.
The BMT-IND transfer from the Brighten line at Franklin Avenue (What Franklin Shuttle?), was started when the Fulton El closed at unification in 1940.
In 1942, when the 2nd Avenue Subway closed, free transfer was instituted at Queensboro Plaza.
All other inter-division transfers date from the 100% fare increase in 1948 or later.
Tom
And at places like Times Square and Atlantic ave,you had to pay an extra fare to transfer...wonder how much that 'inflated' ridership totals?
Also started in 1940 was the BMT IND transfer at Rockaway Ave. and Fulton Street between the A subway and remaining part of the Fulton St. El.
Don't forget, patronage for the World's Fair was citywide. Manhattan access probably wasn't the main function of the service. My father was 8 when he visited the fair, and he lived in Flatbush at the time.
Don't forget, patronage for the World's Fair was citywide. Manhattan access probably wasn't the main function of the service. My father was 8 when he visited the fair, and he lived in Flatbush at the time. Not to mention that there was BMT-IRT service to the fair from Manhattan via the Corona line. Kramer's book details the rebuilding of Willet's Point to accomodate these patrons (my father included).
The "S" picture you refer to is on the cover of Kramer's book. Since the station is deserted and it's a daytime pic, I'll bet it's a test train and the pic was taken before the service was open to the public.
The latest aner image is that of an R143 apparently making simulated stops with the doors opening trackside. Are those blocks or sandbags visible in the doorways?
My typing got scrwed up and I forgot to preview it. I meant "banner image."
banner images are random, could you post a link?
The image is located here: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/pix.pl?/slides/r143=16
It is R143 #8101K, image shot by Trevor Logan.
I saw an R142(A) at 137th yard on sunday
What was it doing there?
Relaxing.
where is this 137th Yard?
Underground, between the 137th Street and 145th Street stations on the 1/9. The revenue tracks pass through the middle of the yard. It can only hold a few trains.
Underground on the 1/9 line.
where is this 137th Yard?
It's on the 1 line, between 137th St. and 145th St. It's pretty simply a five-track yard (three tracks west of the downtown track and two tracks east of the uptown track).
Check http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/biguptown.gif
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
the whole time i thought they were just extra track. doesn't seem like a train yard.
Go through there during non-rush hour and you'll see all the R-62A's lined up.
since you all have clarified it for me, i now know that i have seen it a million times. i thought of it as just extra storage for trains, like what they use the Queens boulevard line for train storage on weekends. it doesn't look like what i percieve a train yard to be, which is the tracks and the maintenance shed. what also tripped me about my not knowing it is a train yard is that one time the main service track was under construction that day and the train detoured through the 137th street train yard.
It's a miniature yard.
And it wasn't just one day that trains detoured through the yard -- it was at least three or four months, rush hours included, southbound, and at least a month or two northbound.
I guess that yard is the reason that they chose 137th Street to start/terminate some trains years ago. I always found that to be an odd station to use as a terminal. It' makes some sense now.
It's not an odd choice at all. Look at the track map -- it's a natural place to terminate trains, since they can relay north of the station. It's also the last of the busy stops. Until 1989, when skip-stop was introduced, alternate rush hour 1 trains terminated at 137th. Even without the yard, it would make sense.
"It's also the last of the busy stops."
Am I right in thinking that 137th is busier in the counter-rush-hour direction than in the rush hour direction? It's not an area with many high density buildings that would fuel a big rush hour. But it does have CUNY, which would attract a lot of riders heading northbound in the morning and southbound in the evening.
That sounds logical, but the only numbers I've seen are total station-by-station passenger counts for 1999 and for 2000.
..slowly creeping it's way uptown for scrapping..
(We can DREAM... till the day.)
wouldn't that be 50 years from now when they will be scrapped? my only assumation that the R-142A set is sitting there is because of problems that needs to be worked out.
It was a #2 layed-up because of the G.O. affecting service between 149 Mott and E180.
Do you know when 2's are scheduled to run to or from 137th? In revenue service or not?
There are NO #2 trains scheduled to run to/from 137St. The train(s) was probably layed up there for the night since it can get to 239St yard due to the weekend GO knocking out service btwn Mott and E.180St.
I was referring to the supplement schedule for that GO. Are any 2 trains specifically scheduled to go there or do they just happen to end up there because there's nowhere else for them to go?
Can I assume some 2 trains turn at Lenox Term?
No you cant assume that neither. All #2 trains from Bklyn terminate at 149St-GC. Not at 137St-CC, 148St-Lenox Term. Ill check the supplement later on to make sure.
Thanks. I'll be waiting at 125th with camera in hand. Too bad there won't be any Redbirds -- that would be a real treat.
The #2 trains layed-up at 137 are not in service to or from 137.
Having one or two deuces stopping at those 5 stations on a Sat. & Sun. for a few weeks would simply confuse the living hell out of those people. If "ignorance is bliss" they are the happiest people on the planet.
I still want to get a picture, if you can find out when they pass through.
But I don't see how southbound 2 trains would confuse anyone. Some would refuse to get on; the rest would just figure they're missigned 1's. At 96th the C/R would announce that the train is running express.
I can imagine why sending them northbound in service past 96th would be a bad idea. OTOH, 3 trains are sometimes diverted in service to 137th.
The other day while doing a put-in out of Canarsie Yard (I was looking forward to R-143s, instead ended up with the "Cadillac" R-42s), I noticed a few tracks over an R-143 train (#8118 in particular) with rusting on the roof!!! I was shocked given the very young age of these cars!! The train is kinda new to be already having rusting on and about the roofs. The R-40M/42s are one thing given they are 32 - 33 years old, but what's the excuse for a new R-143 to be already suffering from steel rusting on the roof? And they (NYCT) say the trains are supposed to have a life expectancy of 50 years......I DON'T THINK SO!!
Are you sure it's rust? I thought the R-143s were all stainless. Stainless really doesn't rust easily!
I'm guessing that the what you really saw was junk on the roof that looked like rust. Couldda been rustywater or something..
you are mostly right that it could be rust water. but stainless steel can corrode. however the corrosion can be cleaned off.
I saw pictures of R-46s with rust colored crud on the entire car otself. It is possible that there are a few rist spots. It could also be that there is a lot of crud on the cars themselves.
#3 West End Jeff
Indeed it was!! There were deep brown spots, with corroded-looking centers, with trails left behind apparently by water trailing down. If that's not rust, I dunno what is!! I was surprised and disbeliefed myself!!
What you Probably saw was the Left over of what happens when a 143 goes thru the Car wash.Seems some chemicals are causing spots to form on the roof and sides.Thats Why 143 Havent been car washed in over 2 weeks.
Could be! Some chemical do eat off steel.
True. In fact, Canarsie terminal hasn't been washing at all the past couple of days.
Oh, that's just great, let's go back to the old days of dirty trains.....progress. Again, don't they think of these "little" things when ordering new trains? What are they going to do about this - leave the trains dirty?
It's the drought. Transit systems all over the Northeast are saving water by not washing equipment as often.
Baltiore is not washing buses, LRV's, subway cars. BSM is not washing streetcars.
Maybe we'll get lots of snow this winter. Short term problem, lots of water.
Oh, okay, if it's because of the drought, that's acceptable. I thought it was because someone mentioned that the washing chemicals were causing something on the R143's exteriors.
New forecast has remnants of Lili dousing us with some plentiful tropical downpours Friday night and Saturday.
It sure has been warm lately too, drought and warm temps definately not a good thing.
Who has the job of washing subway cars? Is it a dedicated person/staff, or just a T/O that drives the train thru it? How ofter do trains normally get washed?
The Dispatcher on duty decides whether to wash trains in accordance with the RTO Superintendent's wishes. There is also a car wash operator (I believe from the Maintenance of Way Dept. but I am not entirely sure) in a room alongside the wash which oversees the operation of the wash, and who can override or shutdown the wash if need be.
To operate through the wash, the train hits a sensor which activates the soap through the first wash barn. About 200 feet later in the second wash barn, the train hits another sensor which activates the brushes & a third sensor activates the water spray to rinse the soap off the train.
The maximum speed for the wash is either 2 or 3 mph depending on the facility.
Washer is crap...waste of energy and manpower. Hands on experience with 239ths car wash...carbody remains stained and undercar remains Hell. At one time there were efforts made to powerwash undercar but when the careless goofed and flooded traction motors...boomsky. CI Peter
So how should one wash a subway car?
U should the r142a 7661-70 set on the 4. I made a connection with that set on Sunday at Franklin, the whole was so dirty, the bums started to make fun of it.
And the ads on the trains say (and I DOUBLE quote) "" they're the last word in subway design"" .....HA!!! That's funny!! :-) The last words aren't that good!! I am not gonna lie they are comfortable to work on, but I say buld the trains like they used to....BUILT TO LAST!!
Oops, my mistake......"build", not "buld"....lol :-D :-)
I've seen this (you get a great view of the roofs from the Canarsie crew room). It just looked to me like steel dust that had settled on the roofs and rusted. That stuff gets on everything you know.
Its the same with the R142s.If you look by the door on the outside theres rust there.Its from water,rain,snow,and mositure.Remember trains stay outside overnight.Or it could be from the tunnels moisture.\
R142/R143MAN
AML
8232 thru 8235 seen 0445 this AM at 59th St Columbus Circle S/B. Diesels on either end.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's hard not to catch a R143 on the L Line now.
-AcelaExpress2005
When did the L stop at Columbus Circle?
They are being sent to the East NY yard after being delivered at 207 ST. That why they were seen. Probably at West 4th St they switch over to the 6th Ave and then on to the K tracks after.
Sorry for bringing this up, Fred.
Perhaps the darkest day in Dodger history up until then occurred on this date in 1951. Russ Hodges called it this way:
One out, last of the ninth, Branca pitches, Bobby Thomson takes a strike call on the inside corner. Bobby batting at .292. He's had a single and a double and he drove in the Giants' first run with a long fly to center. Brooklyn leads it, 4-2. Hartung at third, even with the bag, not taking any chances. Lockman at second without too big of a lead, but he'll be running like the wind if Bobby gets a hold of one. Branca throws... there's a long shot...it's going to be, I believe...The Giants won the pennant! The Giants won the pennant!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!!! Bobbby Thomson hit it into the lower deck of the left field seats. The Giants won the pennant and they're going crazy! They're going crazy!! THEY WONNNNN!!!!!!!!!
In Ebbets Field, Andy Pafko would have caught it for an easy out. As it was, the ball just barely made it into the stands at the 315-foot sign. It was a sinking line drive and Campanella was begging, "Sink you devil, sink!"
P. S. Willie Mays was in the on deck circle. Leo Durocher had no memory of Thomson hitting that home run. He was coaching at third, and when the ball was hit he automatically yelled for Hartung to tag up, then when he saw it wasn't going to be caught, he waved Lockman home. Then he turned to see where the ball was, and there was no ball. That's all he could remember.
Darker than 1957?
I was too young in 1957 to be aware of anything.:)
If you were a Dodger fan in New York on October 3, 1951, it was the darkest day of the century. From that moment until the Brooklyns clinched the 1952 pennant on September 23, I ate all kinds of shit from my friends. They took delight in ribbing me all day, day after day about how the Bums choked big time the year before. 1957 didn't bother me because the Dodgers came out here, which I thought at the time was a big deal. It took only a few months for me to realize that this was no longer my team, and it hasn't been since.
Don't know if this is true or an Urban Legend, but at that time radio stations never recorded or taped their broadcast. Russ Hodges was the Giants radio announcer.
Supposedly the tape was made by a Dodger fan with an early tape machine because he figured that the Dodgers would win and wanted to record Hodges eating crow.
Wonder if the Miracle on Coogan's Bluff would be so ingrained in our psyche if the tape wasn't made and used with the film footage.
Also wonder if there is a tape of the Dodger Announcers' (IIRC, Red Barber & Vin Scully) calling that play ?
I don't know if there is a tape, but I once read that Barber, who called the play, simply deadpanned: "The game is over. See you next year."
He said" It is a long drive to deep left field and this ball is a home run and the Giants win the pennant. That and nothing more. I heard last night on a TV special first aired last year at the 50th Anniversary of that tragedy. It was called" "The Shot Heard 'Round the World. I still get a little sick recalling that. It was a very bad experience for Brooklyn fans, and though we won four of the next five NL Championships including one World Series, the event still brings shivers to many of us.
However, not that much that I cannot call this even the single greatest event in baseball history. It ranks number one and should stay t hat way unless some revisionists try to insert something else. The only other remote possibility was Kirk Gibson's dramatic homer in the ninth inning of the first game of the '88 World Series. Since he was just about crippled on both legs when he went up there it certainly does rank very high. But the Thomson homer has to be No. 1.
Supposedly there is a tape of another announcer calling that play. It wasn't Red Barber or Vin Scully. I am tempted to say Ernie Harwell, but could be dead wrong.
The Dodger announcers were Red Barber, Connie Desmond, and Vin Scully. The Giant announcers were Russ Hodges and Ernie Harwell.
Harwell called in on WPIX, Channel 11, Hodges on WMCA radio, while Barber called it on WMGM radio.
There are at least two other radio broadcasts of that game and both have been at least partially preserved (I have heard parts of both). One of course was Red Barber, the great Dodger announcer, on WMGM (1050 AM). He said; "....and it's in there for a home run and the New York Giants win the National League pennant and the Polo Grounds goes wild." The other one was Gordon McLendon, doing a nationwide radio broadcast on the Liberty Network. He said after Thomson's blast, "I don't know what to say...I don't know what to say. It's the greatest game in the history of baseball."
Ernie Harwell, who only last week retired from baseball broadcasting in Detroit, was doing the game on Channel 11/WPIX, but in those days videotapes were not used to preserve broadcasts. As Harwell puts it so well, "only I and Mrs. Harwell know that I called that game."
And to keep it on the subject, there were about 34,000 people at the Polo Grounds that day (vs. 55,000 seats). I wonder how many took the D train or the Polo Grounds shuttle?
And finally, wouldn't it be nice if the Yankees and Giants met in the World Series this year. Memories of the old Subway Series days, and hopefully no Atlanta Braves in the World Series this year (I've been watching game 2 of Atl vs SF and that obnoxious tomahawk chop is unfortunately alive and well).
I'm rooting for an Angels-Giants Series, which means I probably won't get it. Why do I want that? So we can stick it up the LA Dodgers asses. They're not no. 1 in California and not no. 1 in the Los Angeles Metropolitan area. It couldn't happen to a more sorry franchise than the Dodgers have become.
I heard a tape of Barber's call. It was very professional and to the point. I was playing softball with our sixth grade class when all this took place. I had left after seven-and-a-half innings with the Dodgers leading 4-1. I asked this guy John Pearno who had won, and he said the Giants 5-4. Within minutes all my friends were there giving me the razberry.
We know that sometimes Bloomberg takes the IRT to work. But last night he took the 4 to the Yankee game! My friend and I boarded a train of Redbirds at GCT around 7:05. At 86th, he gets on with a big security detail. The car was so crowded that we couldn't really see that well.
However, at 161/Yankee Stadium, I wind up RIGHT behind him and i tell my friend to stick close. We got fast-tracked right up to the main gates by sticking to him like glue. It was fun "being in his entourage" for 5 mins cause everyone is starring, shaking hands, etc.
During the game there was an announcement on the big centerfield sign about the mayor encouraging everyone to use mass transit. At least he's not being hypocritical.
Too bad the Yankees lost though.....
*NICE* to know that New Yorkers STILL know how to doa sidewalk act and be "on the juice" ... A tip of my PANTS for you in the most humble of respect ... seriously, New Yorkers *USED TO* have baetzim. I'm proud YOU still carry on the tradition, and this ain't no jokee. ESPECIALLY with the "nuke the kukes" security details. Nice to know SOMEONE can still get over. ;)
(I'm KIDDING! Seriously, nice to know SOMEONE can still have fun in "fun city" ... I stopped coming when *I* couldn't have any fun, but last Christmas, I had *FUN* in "FUN CITY" and it was just the teats ... and this all AFTER 9/11 ... only shows the life you lead is a function of your ability to ENJOY it and SCREW those who would mess with it ... moo.
To bad the Yankees lost? Says you. I hope the Anaheims have enough huevos to dump the pinstripes twice out here so the Steinbrenners can finally go home with their tails between their legs. It would make the millions upon millions of Yankee haters rejoice that there was justice in the world.
"Too bad the Yankees lost though....."
But they won on Tuesday night, when I was in the ballpark! I didn't see Bloomie there, but of course Rudy was in his usual spot. -Nick
Today is the second aniversary of October 3, 2000. Yay! Let's have a railfan trip in celebration. After work, everybody take Amtrak down to Atlanta, and I'll give a tour of MARTA station signs and the different styles being used. See you this evening!
Trivia: did you know that 10/3/00 was on a Tuesday, yes it's true, but hard to believe. It's not on a Thursday like today is.
It's also the third anniversary of Ocotber 3, 1999, which even more strangely was on a Sunday, if you can believe that. Word on the street is that by 2004 we'll be celebrating this anniversary on Sunday once again.
Mark
I took a test ride aboard the NYC Water Taxi Tuesday night right after work.
I walked down through Cadman Plaza Park to Fulton Ferry landing and boarded adjacent to the River Cafe. The boats are done up in a checkercab color scheme (Catamarran style). The walk was about 12 mintues and the boat pulled out at about 6:30. The seating was comfortable with 'commuter bus' style seats along the sides, and longitudal types (back to back) in the center of the craft. There was an upper deck that was closed due to ruff waters that evening.
The normal route for the WaterTaxi is: (1) West 44th Street (Pier 84); (2) West 22nd Street/Chelsea Piers (Pier 62); (3) World Financial Center (North Cove); (4) Battery Park (Pier A); (5) Wall Street/South Street Seaport (Pier 11); (6) Fulton Ferry Landing (Brooklyn).
I got off at the first stop which was World Financial Center (normally would have been further up River at Pier 84, but this was the free trial service so locations (1) and (2) were not available for the first week of service. The trip took about 10 mintues and was initially quite slow (usual harbor traffic) but later quikened once we rounded past the Staten Island Ferry dock area. Anyone who can't handle choppy seas wouldn't have enjoyed the trip as it was a rocky ride and being a small ferry boat meant you FELT every swell.
Connection to rapid transit: rides will be available through MetroCards (via $3.00 per-one way trips). I believe WaterTaxi is working out a plan were customers could purchase a $15 FunPass which would allow unlimited day rides aboard the WaterTaxi including the usual bus/subway privileges.
Not a bad trip, but I'd wait till next summer to really appreciate a ride on a hot summer day right around sunset...
>>> The normal route for the WaterTaxi is: (1) West 44th Street (Pier 84); (2) West 22nd Street/Chelsea Piers (Pier 62); (3) World Financial Center (North Cove); (4) Battery Park (Pier A); (5) Wall Street/South Street Seaport (Pier 11); (6) Fulton Ferry Landing (Brooklyn) <<<
Why do they call it water "taxi"? It sounds more like a fixed route omnibus, or at least a jitney operation, rather than the water taxis such as are found in Venice.
Tom
I suppose "ferry" wouldn't be entirely appropriate either, as that term implies back-and-forth operation between two points, not a multistop route like the one in question. "Water bus" might be a better choice.
To keep this thread on topic, I like "water subway".
--Mark
"To keep this thread on topic, I like "water subway"."
But then they would have to use submarines!
Hey, if they use hovercraft, then we could call it an "Elevated"
-Larry
Yeah sure, ferry could be accurate, it need not imply a back and forth movement of people and material, really all it is is a shuttle between 2 or more points on the water. Case in point: the washington state ferries operates a service out of Anacortes to and from Victoria, British Colombia with intermediate stops in the San Juan Islands at Orcas Island, Shaw Island, Lopez Island and Friday Harbor. Usually the larger Elwha will cover the 'express' runs that may stop at only Victoria, Orcas and Anacortes, while the smaller Nisqually and Evergreen State cover the local milk runs. Closer to NY, the NY Fast Ferry company offers service from Atlantic Highlands to both Pier 11 and the ferry terminal at E34th.
And you can bet that this is on topic, since to the people on the Olympic, and Kitsap Penninsulas, on Vashon and Whidby Islands, and in the San Juans, the Washington State ferry system IS the subway, for some the only way off their island of choice. And if you claim that it is not rapid enough, you should keep in mind that the Passenger only fast ferrys, whether of Seattle's WSF, New York's Seastreak, and NYFF, and whomever runs them in San Fran, probably could outrun most NYCT subway equipment given the chance.
I guess necause it's the smallest passenger boat we have now, so why not? I rode it on the first day last week. Pretty nice, but it's hard to stand when it's bouncing on the waves.
Only because the overall rounded shape of the boats body + the coloring is borrowed from the old NYC Checker Cabs of yore.
Did it actually stop at Pier A? On the web page it says, "Pier A’s docking facility needs to be modified to insure the safety of our passengers. Once our docks are in place service will begin. Please check back for updates." Also, it only goes north of WFC during off-peak hours.
Their pricing structure is a little weird. It costs $3 to ride one way in rush hour, presumably any number of stops. Outside of rush hour, it costs $4 to go one stop, and $8 to go more than that (but still only one way). So on weekends, it costs $4 to go from Pier A to Pier 11, or $8 to go from Pier A to Brooklyn. That's pretty steep! On the other hand, $4 to go from WFC to Chelsea Piers or from Chelsea Piers to West 44th isn't such a bad deal, considering the lousy subway access, inconvenient parallel bus routes, and the quick trip on the water.
From the web page, it seems that there will be two 1-day passes. The $15 All-Day Pass is for use only on the water taxi itself. The $19 Fun Pass includes an MTA FunPass, so there isn't any savings over buying their $15 All-Day Pass and having a $4 MTA FunPass separately.
It's also a little strange that there are no published schedules (at least, not yet) for a service that runs only every 20-40 minutes and only until 7-8pm.
Well, they announced a Stop for Battery Park. Where they actually docked at Pier A I couldn't tell you as I departed at their first stop at WFC.
Well, they made an announcement for a stop at Battery Park. Whether they actually docked at Pier A I couldn't tell you as I departed at their first stop at WFC.
That would mean they didn't dock at Pier A, since Pier A comes before the WFC. =) (Pier A is in Battery Park, WFC is in Battery Park City, but most people don't distinguish between the two.)
True. They first docked at WFC then all stops afterward were in a order or working their way south and then around the harbor and onto the East River side. With their last stop of South Street Seaport the taxi's then head right across the river to Fulton Ferry Landing.
Cut and paste link.
http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-0/103363993540270.xml
Assuming that all the details in the article are correct, NJ Transit probably should never have let this go to trial. They should have settled early, and then gone after the manufacturers to extract some money from them. In this way, the award might have been lessened.
The woman's injuries and disability are consistent with the accident - she is most likely not exaggerating. The rod directly damaged or destroyed nerves to her face. Sense of smell is provided by a nerve which literally has an exposed ending high up in the nose. She's very lucky to be alive and still sentient. She's lucky not to have been left blind.
God, NJT's lawyers are good BS artists. Train pantographs are almost universally made to break away in the event of a snag, to prevent even more dammage to the wires and or equipment. IIRC, when the M-2s came online, they weren't designed this way, and the roofs actually got ripped off a few cars durring snags.
In any case, this is a freak accident. Stuff like this has happened for years. Passengers getting killed by springs getting ejected from trucks, debris on the track, pan snags, other stuff going flying....
But at least in contrast to other cases, (a) this woman did nothing to contribute to her own misfortune and (b) a greater level of care would have prevented the accident. Whether the greater level of care would have been reasonable is of course open to discussion. The jury thought so, while many railroad professionals might or might not disagree.
oh, I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that NJT passing the buck to the manufacturer here is just plain stupid
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/23750p-22521c.html
How long does jury duty typically last? That's really what my question boils down to.
This evening I'll be spending one fare ($1.36).
Tomorrow I'll be spending probably one fare, possibly two.
Saturday I probably won't be riding at all.
Sunday I'm going unlimited in any case.
Monday I'm on jury duty. I'd like to go unlimited each day I'm on jury duty, but I don't know how long that will be. Aside from jury duty, I won't do much riding next week.
If I'm dismissed on Monday, I'm best off with two single fares and two Fun Passes, for $10.72. If I'm dismissed on Tuesday, again, paying day-by-day will only cost $14.72. If I continue through Wednesday, I should spend $17.00 on an unlimited and start using it today. But if I continue through Thursday, I should wait until tomorrow to start up the unlimited. And if I continue through Friday, I should wait until Sunday.
So what's my best bet?
Incidentally, how much time will I have off for lunch?
If you don't get selected for a case figure 3 days.
If you are on a case that is in the selection process figure 1-2 hours for lunch, depends on the judge.
The above estimates are from personal experience in The Bronx, your results may vary.
Bring PLENTY of reading matter, bring a copy of the Post AND the Village Voice. Confuses the hell out of the lawyers. Act disinterested and you probably won't get selected.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've had similar results in Manhattan. If you don't get selected, on the afternoon of the 3rd day they dismiss you. But I do hear they are trying to streamline the process by calling more people but keeping them there less time.
I've never had less than 1.5 hours for lunch.
I'd bet on a Fun Pass on Sunday and any day on jury duty that you plan to do side trips as well.
So it's pretty much definite that I'll be going at least through Wednesday? Then it seems that a 7-day would be in order.
The only question is when to start it. How likely is it that I'll be picked?
As for reading material, just last week I bought a used copy of The Power Broker. I've read it before but I'd like to read it again. I think it'll amply fill up my time.
" How likely is it that I'll be picked?"
My experience is 5% or less in criminal, 10% in civil. But again, those numbers may have dropped with the supposed larger pools and less time in the system.
If youare, I hope you find it an interesting experience. I enjoyed my jury duty (it was years ago in California).
The likelihood of being picked has a lot to do with your occupation. When I served in Manhattan about 3 years ago, I was dismissed after 2 hours being told that there was basically no chance that I'd be selected for a case because I work in the insurance industry.
CG
If you don't get selected, on the afternoon of the 3rd day they dismiss you. But I do hear they are trying to streamline the process by calling more people but keeping them there less time.
When I went to jury duty last year in Manhattan, they kept me and a bunch of other people (maybe 30 in all?) for all of one day. In that day, I was questioned for a single case, wasn't selected, and that was it. We were told there just weren't enough cases to warrant keeping all of us around.
I already served jury duty back in late May.You stay there for a max of 3 days.If you dont get selected as a juror on the 1st or 2nd day then they might let you go on the 2nd day.Now if you get selected THEN you'll need to stay how ever long the trail you were selected to may take.
Its a sad day for the rail community as the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad was sold as part of the Iron Railways Corp bankruptcy. After serving Maine for more than 100 years the BAR will cease to exist as a railroad. The BAR was famous for its fleet of early EMD BL-2 diesels and various other 50's cab units. The BAR later became the recpiepiant of several of the former PRSL GP-38 units after they were sold by Conrail.
Rail World, a Chicago-based railway investment and management company, will change the system's name to Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway if its $50 million offer is accepted by a federal bankruptcy court judge next week. The $50 million purchase price is down from a $62 million offer made late last year by Rail World, because the system continues to lose money and customers, according to the system's president.
I have a Bangor and Aroostook boxcar in N scale. I got a chance to see one of their trains for real in Millinocket, Maine two years ago when I went mountain climbing there.
Weep.
Mark
After the Mellon Bank's "Guilford Transportation," even slow cooked in FLAMES would have been an improvement. A KAZILLIOON CHEERS for the "Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway" ... CP wrestled the D&H from those SCUMBAGS, any which way the B&A goes is UP from the flipping Mellon Bank ... even liquidation. :(
And the LIRR still chugs along after 168 years.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
One-by-one, Amtrak’s Acela Express high-speed trainsets are returning to service. Five trainsets remain out of service until new yaw dampers are installed connecting trucks to carbodies, or cracks can be ground out.
Karina van Veen, at Amtrak’s Washington headquarters, told D:F, “12 trainsets are running, making 40 departures.” She also noted, “Prior to the mechanical difficulties, 15 trainsets were running for 50 departures.”
Bombardier-Alstom, the consortium that built the trainsets, has not yet found a permanent solution, she added.
“We are still working with Bombardier to determine a cause and develop a permanent fix.”
A Canadian online publication, the Financial Post, looked into the Acela problems with a Canadian view, and published their results on September 21. Reporters Brian Hutchinson and Sean Silcoff wrote that Bombardier, Inc. anticipated Amtrak troubles, and warned the railroad of defects that would start appearing down the road.
The reporters searched through documents “tucked away in a Washington, D.C. courthouse.”
One by one, the Acela Expresses are returning to regular service.
The documents cast fresh light on the trains’ mechanical troubles.
Bombardier also alleged that Amtrak has “wrongfully withheld $51 million in project payments.”
In an August 2000, letter to Amtrak, Bombardier warned that “in major respects,” the trains did not comply with contract requirements.
It pointed to possible “defects” in the trains’ undercarriages – the trucks.
When all 18 trainsets were suddenly pulled from service in August, the disruption cost Amtrak an estimated $9 million (in American dollars) in lost revenues. It also reignited concerns that the trains, financed through a U.S. $611 million loan from Canada’s Export Development Corp. (EDC), will never live up to their billing as a speedy, reliable alternative to air travel.
The Bombardier and Alstom consortium, led by Bombardier, began work on them in 1997.
The EDC is a Crown corporation that seeks to stimulate sales of Canadian products outside the country, according to the published report. EDC also lent Amtrak another $400 million to buy additional Bombardier equipment, including 15 8,000 hp electric locomotives (HHP-8s, Nos. 650-664) used for Amtrak’s regional passenger train service between Washington, D.C., New York City and Boston.
The loans had “been a closely guarded secret,” [in Canada] noted the Ottawa Citizen when it broke the story two years ago.
“Details of the EDC-Amtrak loans are not disclosed in EDC annual reports or financial statements,” it wrote.
These days, Amtrak officials freely admit the EDC loans were essential to their high-speed rail project. “Amtrak had no cash” of its own to pay for the trains, recalled Amtrak board member Amy Rosen.
The Boston Globe reported the loan package “astonished some [U.S.] lawmakers, who had hoped Amtrak would put its money into a train proven to work on American rails, and into upgrading its deteriorating tunnels, wiring and tracks.” That assumed the appropriate high-speed rail technology existed. It did not.
“People think that Amtrak should have just bought some train off the shelf,” said Scott Leonard, assistant director of the National Association of Railroad Passengers.
“That kind of argument drives me crazy. There wasn’t anything out there. The new trains had to be built from scratch.”
A savvy observer also noted the trains also had to be built to “tough U.S. FRA standards. The crashworthiness was far stricter than anything else in the world.”
Court documents showed Bombardier claimed it felt pressure “to deliver equipment allegedly contractually non-compliant in major respects for revenue service,” according to an August 2000 letter the builder wrote to Amtrak. The trains entered service four months later, more than one year behind schedule.
Bombardier filed its complaint against Amtrak in November 2001, in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. The complaint is housed in a massive Washington courthouse, directly opposite the Canadian embassy. It makes for some startling reading.
Almost from the moment the contract was signed, Bombardier claims, Amtrak began meddling with the consortium’s work.
“As a result of Amtrak’s continuing interference,” Bombardier alleges, “designs have been modified literally thousands of times, large numbers of already completed components have had to be discarded or retrofitted.... The magnitude of the extra work caused by Amtrak is reflected in the vast Contract record – more than 19,900 letters, 9,000 engineering change notices, 4,700 retrofit notices and 800 formally recorded meetings.... Amtrak’s conduct resulted in many months of delivery delays and large cost overruns.”
Bombardier pointed out that under the contract, Amtrak was to provide track that would allow the new trainsets to run at 150 miles an hour, with a maximum “cant deficiency” around curves of nine inches.
Defined by Bombardier, cant deficiency reflects the lateral forces imposed on rail equipment in curves. The higher the cant deficiency, the greater the lateral forces.
According to Bombardier, it told Amtrak in a confidential April 1997 meeting that existing track along the corridor was “not good enough for the speeds required” under the contract.
Bombardier is suing Amtrak for “not less than $200 million,” claiming that persistent meddling by the train operator forced the consortium to incur cost overruns.
Bombardier won’t discuss the lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court last November, nor will it reveal if Amtrak has made any payment on the trains.
In July, a lawyer representing Amtrak told a Washington judge that “We think Bombardier messed up this contract something fierce, that there was incompetence in meeting contract specifications.”
However, Bombardier claimed it warned Amtrak as early as 1997 that “inadequate” railway infrastructure along the Boston-Washington corridor did not meet “international high-speed safety and ride-quality standards,” and that poor track quality could pose problems for the new trains.
New federal track standards that Amtrak encouraged were “unsafe for high-speed train service,” Bombardier said, citing an opinion from French high-speed rail experts.
The latest service disruption has been a major source of embarrassment for Bombardier, which is already reeling from its first-ever profit warning and a plunging stock price. [Bombardier’s latest quarterly statement appears else where in this issue. – Ed.]
Bombardier claims Amtrak’s “chronic financial problems precluded it from investing the funds necessary to bring Northeast Corridor track up to international high-speed safety and ride-quality standards.”
In July 1997, the U.S.FRA in Washington issued proposed safety track regulations that, Bombardier alleges, “would permit Amtrak to operate trains at high speeds and high cant deficiencies, on track whose overall quality was lower than that previously required for conventional train service.”
Bombardier alleges it warned both Amtrak and the FRA that the corridor track was inadequate, and that it would “create unsafe conditions if trains ran at the high speeds and high cant deficiency required under the contracts.”
What’s more, says Bombardier, high-speed experts from France presented Amtrak with confidential reports “demonstrating that the FRA’s new track standards were unsafe for high-speed train service.”
Amtrak, Bombardier claims, “continued to advocate standards that would decrease track quality and maintenance costs. As a consequence... the FRA issued track regulations that authorized train operation at high speeds and high cant deficiencies over track that, in key respects, was of lower quality than previously required for conventional train service.”
Amtrak’s poor track, Bombardier said, led to further design changes, more testing and delivery delays, all of which cost the consortium money.
The problems did not go unnoticed. In 1999, The Boston Globe reported engineers had “discovered excessive wear on the new wheels after the train went around curves” during performance tests. Amtrak was forced to make the first of several announcements that its high-speed service would be delayed.
“Skeptics have begun the chorus of ‘I told you so’ and are questioning whether revitalized Northeast Corridor service, whenever it happens, will live up to its billing,” the Globe harrumphed.
By June 2000, Bombardier was still concerned the trains could not meet contract requirements “in major respects,” including the performance of their undercarriages, or trucks.
Bombardier quietly informed Amtrak it was “not going to repeatedly tender equipment and then have Amtrak file claims alleging that the designs are not compliant in major respects.”
Amtrak would hear none of this; it wanted the trains delivered. The public had been told to expect the first high-speed trains by September 2000, although that seemed optimistic.
The company told Bombardier the track issue was not major, and that it need not be resolved “prior to the introduction of the trainsets into revenue service... the only consequence of this technical [track] issue is the potential operation of the trainsets at reduced speeds along certain portions of the Northeast Corridor.”
On December 10, Amtrak’s first Acela train rolled out of Washington’s Union Station, and made the inaugural high-speed run to Boston and back in 13 hours, a little more than two hours better than a conventional Amtrak train.
The new train was pulled from service the next day, after inspectors discovered some minor damage to a pantograph.
Less than a year later, Bombardier filed its complaint.
The lawsuit now seems prescient: Bombardier suggested the high-speed trains would experience difficulties, and this summer, they did. The question, of course, is why.
Not surprisingly, Amtrak denies the cracks in the suspension systems have anything to do with the quality of its track.
Amtrak has always denied that it made any inappropriate demands of Bombardier during the construction of its trains. Immediately after Bombardier filed its complaint last November, Amtrak issued a press release stating, “it refused to cut corners or accept shoddy workmanship.... The consortium’s record of failure ... is staggering.”
Amtrak maintains the Acela is safe.
The reporters bought tickets and took a ride on an Acela Express between Boston and New York.– Ed.
The Canadian Post is online at http://www.nationalpost.com/.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
Amtrak’s plans to cut expansion projects nationwide, including hopes for a new station and restored passenger rail service at Daytona Beach, Fla., have left Mayor Bud Asher feeling ill.
“I got sick,” the mayor told the Daytona Beach Journal a fortnight ago. “It’s such a needed thing. We were so looking forward to having passenger train service back in Daytona Beach and a nice project.”
Asher was eagerly awaiting restored passenger service after a 30-year absence, and construction of a new station to help revive the city’s low-income west side.
Amtrak officials set aside expansion plans across the country and want a $1.2 billion subsidy for current operations, despite a deadline from Congress to be self-sufficient by December. More than $25 billion in federal subsidies have gone into Amtrak since it was formed in 1971.
U.S. Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.) of Winter Park, and a state transportation official said hopes to get local plans back on track hinge on resolving Amtrak’s financial problems.
“Right now, it’s sort of tied up in election-year politics,” Mica said. “Hopefully, next year we can make changes that actually increase services, not only for Daytona Beach, but throughout the United States.”
Mica has proposed spinning Amtrak off into separate operations, with the federal government, state governments and private companies operating the different parts. He would separate services such as long-distance, commuter rail and the Auto Train.
“It’s in serious need of reform,” Mica said. “Amtrak is responsible for all passenger, long-distance and commuter rail service and they’re not able to do any of them well.”
An Amtrak spokesman responded by defending the company’s operations and said plans to bring passenger rail service back to Daytona Beach have only been put on hold.
“Our intention is to move forward at a future date, but it’s going to be on hold for the coming year,” said Howard Riefs, an Amtrak spokesman in Chicago.
An emergency $200 million operating loan in July from the USDOT barred Amtrak from spending money on expansion plans for one year, he said.
State officials plan to continue budgeting – but not spending – $64 million to restore the Jacksonville-Miami passenger rail route, said Nazih Haddad, state passenger rail development manager. About $2 million of that state money, along with more than $400,000 in city funds from a gas tax, would go to buy land here and build a new terminal.
“Amtrak is sort of wobbling trying to continue services across the country and cannot spend monies on expansion of services this year,” he said. “We’re still committed to this project, but because of the uncertainly, we’re going to hold off on spending these dollars.”
Haddad said it would probably take another year for Congress to resolve Amtrak’s financial problems and get expansion plans going again.
The city is holding off on buying property for the station “until Congress figures out what to do about Amtrak,” City Manager Richard Quigley said. The proposed site is north of International Speedway Boulevard near Segrave Street on property owned by Florida East Coast Ry. and Florida Power & Light Co.
Asher said there’s been no decision yet on whether the city’s money would stay earmarked for the rail project or go toward other transportation needs.
Elsewhere in Florida, the state has little more than one year to meet a construction start deadline for high-speed rail and find a way to finance its potential $20 billion cost.
Almost two years ago, the St. Petersburg Times recalled on September 22, Florida voters surprised everyone and approved a constitutional amendment that required the state to begin construction by November 2003 on a high-speed rail system that would link Florida’s five largest cities. Phase One would link Orlando with the Tampa Bay area.
There has been a flurry of quiet activity aimed at accomplishing what the state constitution now requires, but with barely more than a year until the deadline, there is still no certainty that Florida will get high-speed rail, and no clear means to finance it.
“I was against it initially,” said state Sen. Jim Sebesta (R) of St. Petersburg, chairman of the state’s Senate Transportation Committee.
“When it passed, I gave a zero chance to ever seeing it. Now it’s up to 50-50.”
It is Sebesta’s fantasy to unveil a train that rides on a cushion of air, capable of speeds up to 350 mph without any vibration and in total silence; but he acknowledges that fantasies are fine, as long as you don’t have to pay for them.
Even with a less ambitions train, which might travel at 150 mph, the question remains: How will the state finance a luxury that could have a final price tag of $20 billion?
Florida’s High-Speed Rail Authority, created by the state legislature, has commissioned a pair of studies for potential investors. They will suggest the best routes for the trains, station locations, costs and ridership potential, and are due in December.
On October 3, the authority will issue requests for proposals to 11 private investors who have expressed an interest in building and operating a high-speed rail line in the Sunshine State.
The proposals are due in February, a critical date because in March the legislature will have to decide whether the project is viable, and if it isn’t, whether to ask voters in another constitutional amendment to repeal the first one.
State Sen. Ron Klein (D) of Delray Beach, prepared a repeal amendment for this November’s ballot, but was persuaded to withdraw it to give the process a chance to work. If it doesn’t, and Klein is certain it won’t, he will introduce a bill next session that either asks for repeal of the rail amendment or sets out in specific terms how it will be financed.
“I do not believe the private sector is going to pay for this,” Klein said. “What I’m concerned about is an open-ended state checkbook that would drain a lot of resources, including money to solve local transportation issues, like moving people between Tampa and St. Petersburg, between Miami and Fort Lauderdale. That’s where we have problems, not moving people between Orlando and Miami.”
Ah, if only Florida could take Senator Joe Bruno off our hands. He'd get them a nifty "Joe Bruno" train station toute suite ... so what if the mayor (or Amtrak employee) needed to buy a CLOCK for it ... Florida's gotta stop depending on REAL republicans and get themselves NYS KISSASS republicans and that train station would have already been BUILT! :)
SCREW the taxpayers ... welcome to NEW YORK GOP where, if you're NOT on welfare, you will be, then we can cut it off and titter at you.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
They don’t want a sales tax increase – they only want a part of an existing tax. Saying it’s time for Indiana to get serious about high-speed rail, supporters of a Midwest rail project are planning a major effort to persuade state lawmakers to get on board.
Their plan is to create a new dedicated fund which would draw 0.04 percent of the state’s sales tax, or about $1.5 million a year, for investments, studies and matching money for federally funded projects, according to the Indianapolis Star of September 21.
Indiana is one of nine states that support the proposed $4.1 billion plan, which would link Indianapolis to every major city in the Midwest on trains going 110 mph or faster. Financially, the state has contributed little to its estimated $80 million to $140 million share of the price tag – but after its first two-day conference that ended September 20 in the capital city, the Indiana High Speed Rail Assn. unveiled plans for an aggressive lobbying effort during next year’s General Assembly.
Its strategy is to convince lawmakers that the benefits of better rail service are not just to passengers but to Indiana’s economy, which they say could reap $1.3 billion to $3.8 billion in new jobs, higher incomes and more tax revenue.
“The cornerstone of getting legislative support is our ability to show the jobs we can bring in,” said rail advocate Mark Urban, a civil engineer who will lead the effort.
He plans to produce comprehensive reports tailored to legislators who represent key districts along the proposed line. In Indiana, that includes about a dozen counties between Gary and Lawrenceburg and a half-dozen between Indianapolis and Louisville, Ky.
An estimated 5,560 to 16,700 jobs would be created, according to preliminary results of an economic impact study, details of which were released at the conference.
Most of the jobs would be directly related to the rail system itself and support industries, but many also would be created by the ripple effects of a better freight rail system, a key component of the plan.
The city of Gary, through which three high-speed routes would pass, would reap the most benefits. Indianapolis would be a close second, according to Alexander Metcalf, president of Transportation Economics and Management Systems, which is conducting the study.
“The big question is going to be, what does this (project) really mean on Main Street?” Metcalf asked.
“We know a large number of communities are going to feel the impact, because 80 percent of the population of all nine states will be living within an hour’s drive of a rail station.”
Indiana taxpayers, even those who support high-speed rail, may not like the idea of taking from a state budget that is already ailing.
“I think it’s great that governments are open to looking at new transportation options,” said Dave Reedy, a rail supporter who lives in Culver. “(The new fund) seems like a wonderful idea as long as this money doesn’t come from a tax increase.”
Roger Beaman of Indianapolis, who opposes plans for a local light-rail system, said he is not necessarily against a high-speed rail plan as long as it would be self-supporting and would not negatively affect communities. He, too, draws the line at higher taxes.
“If the state is proposing a half-cent increase for this, I would not be in favor,” he said. “We cannot keep increasing taxes every time we need money for a new need.”
High-speed rail supporters argue that if Indiana wants to be part of the Midwest rail plan, it must act now to begin the work needed to upgrade rail lines and stations.
Lots of luck. Indiana is a rural, conservative, and Republican state. Think Dan (Mr. Potatoe) Quayle. Only the northwest corner, tied to Chicago, thinks urban. NICTD (South Shore Line interurban) had an awful time getting a subsidy from the state legislature.
My initial reaction upon reading about plans for high-speed rail was "that'll never fly in Indiana". I have long experience with Indiana because portions of my family hail from there. As you point out, Indiana is an unlikely place to find support for high-speed rail. It is populist, right-wing, and anti-tax.
What is ironic is that the state is lobbying hard to build an interstate from Indianapolis to the south-east. Many people are on board, and large sections of the business community support it whole-hartedly, claiming that it will be good for the economy. Some have even made the improbable claim that building the interstate will help foster the growth of a high-tech center in Indiana (LOL). Here is a booster web site:
http://www.i-69forindiana.com/
Naturally, the eco-lobby is against it:
http://www.elpc.org/trans/I69/I69.htm
http://www.greenscissors.org/transportation/I-69.htm
It will be interesting to see if Hoosiers choose pay for a new highway *and* rail, or if (as I predict), they will build the road and kill the train. Or, most improbably, they kill the road and build the rail line. . . . .
(As you point out, Indiana is an unlikely place to find support for
high-speed rail. It is populist, right-wing, and anti-tax.)
Funny how "populist" and "anti-tax" now go together. Our elected officials, Republican and Democrats, have suceeded in making government so unfair, with so little to offer to most people, that even those in the lower half have turned against it.
"Funny how "populist" and "anti-tax" now go together."
Actually, they don't. It's easy for you to put the two together in a sentence, regardless of whether that reflects reality.
I think that is the inconsistency in modern political rhetoric that Larry was trying to point out.
Mark
I thought it was kind of strange that it was Indianapolis and Louisville that were mentioned. Just where is this line supposed to go? I would think connecting Indianapolis with Chicago would be a more logical.
Mark
Is the MWRRI even going anywhere yet, or is it still in the dreamy talk stage?
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
The doors to Amtrak’s station at White River Jct., Vermont are still open, and the trains are still running, but Bill Brigham, the 63-year-old stationmaster who did everything from planning passengers’ trips to making the morning coffee, was gone after the Vermonter pulled out of the station on September 27.
Amtrak eliminated the stationmaster positions at four Vermont stations, including the one in White River Jct., to try to save between $300,000 and $350,000, said Charlie Miller, director of rail with the Vermont DOT. The company made the layoffs a condition of the new contract with the state, which subsidized the jobs, according to the Valley News.
Ticket machines, which will cost the state $40,000 apiece, may be installed at the stations in about six months, said Miller. Until then, passengers must reserve tickets over the phone or online and buy them on the train.
The state had planned to put in the ticket machines eventually, but Amtrak’s decision was a surprise, said Miller. “This came up on us,” he said.
Brigham has worked for Amtrak for nearly 30 years, the last seven of which have been at the White River Jct. station.
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
Making good on its slogan “Moving Forward,” Sound Transit reported on Friday (September 27) its third Sounder commuter train between Seattle and Tacoma would start running on Monday at 6:30 a.m.
The trains operate over Burlington Northern & Santa Fe tracks.
Initially, the third morning train will leave the Tacoma Dome Station between the 6:15 a.m. and 6:45 a.m. trains. The new southbound train will leave Seattle’s King Street Station at 4:55 p.m., followed by the current 5:10 p.m. and 5:35 p.m. trains. The addition of the third train adds 38 percent capacity to the system.
Meanwhile, two final bus routes in ST Express will begin. The ST Express regional bus system is the first of Sound Transit’s three lines of business created by the 1996 Sound Move vote to reach completion.
In 1996 voters approved funding for Sound Transit to provide a regional system of transit improvements, including Sounder commuter rail, ST Express regional bus service, numerous capital improvements (including park-and-ride lots, transit centers and direct access ramps) and Link light rail.
Ticket machines, which will cost the state $40,000 apiece, may be installed at the stations in about six months, said Miller. Until then, passengers must reserve tickets over the phone or online and buy them on the train.
The state had planned to put in the ticket machines eventually, but Amtrak’s decision was a surprise, said Miller. “This came up on us,” he said.
Brigham has worked for Amtrak for nearly 30 years, the last seven of which have been at the White River Jct. station.
Vermont is showing all up!
From Destination Freedom @ http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df09302002.shtml
Planned commuter train service between Essex and Burlington, Vermont is moving closer to being built. The project received a $4.8 million federal boost, Vermont Sens. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and James Jeffords (I-Vt.) said September 19.
The money will be used for engineering, and to buy the land and build the eight-mile rail line, The AP reported.
“It certainly gets us off and running with the preliminary engineering phase,” said Charlie Miller, rail division director at the state Agency of Transportation. Engineering and design work will take about a year, Miller said, and trains should be running by 2006. The entire project, including bus service to transport passengers to train stations, is expected to cost between $21 and $24 million, Miller said.
The Vermont Transportation Authority, which runs the Champlain Flyer, a commuter train between Charlotte and Burlington, would run the Essex line.
“The Champlain Flyer cannot survive with its present route,” said Jim Fitzgerald, commuter rail manager for the Vermont Transportation Authority.
“We just don’t travel far enough. This system has to grow. This would enable us to carry on and take our folks through Winooski, into Essex and IBM.” Leahy said the commuter train would alleviate traffic in populated parts of northwestern Vermont and also would provide transportation alternatives for IBM employees.
“Starting passenger rail from Essex to Burlington will give commuters along the crowded Route 15 corridor the opportunity to trade the headaches of traffic for the convenience of rail service,” said Leahy.
All the rail line and ballast will need to be replaced, according to William McNight, executive director for the Chittenden County Metropolitan Planning Organization. A deteriorating tunnel under North Avenue in Burlington also will require extensive work, Miller said.
The Essex line is one leg of a larger commuter rail service that state officials hope to extend south to Middlebury and from Essex Jct. to Montpelier. Officials also are considering linking Franklin County to Essex Jct. with an additional line. The Burlington-Essex service also would help connect Vermont to other rail service in the Northeast, Jeffords said.
“By improving this line, we will connect the two key branches of Vermont’s rail system, enabling passenger service to Burlington from throughout the state and the Northeast,” he said.
The Rutland Herald is online at http://www.rutlandherald.com/.
Text of Port Authority Press Release:
"Date: October 03, 2002
Press Release Number: 104-2002
The Port Authority’s PATH system – which continues to provide critical mass transit service between New York and New Jersey despite the loss of two of its primary terminals on September 11 – has been honored as the top rail system in the nation for 2001 by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA).
The Association honored PATH for outstanding performance in the categories of safety, customer service, financial management, marketing, policy and administration and community relations. PATH competed against the nation’s largest rail systems to win the award.
New York Governor George E. Pataki said, “I want to commend the hundreds of PATH employees who are among the many heroes of September 11. Not only did PATH employees help to evacuate thousands of people from the World Trade Center, but they also took action to stop trains bound for the Trade Center to prevent commuters from being put in harm’s way.”
New Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey said, “PATH employees have worked tirelessly since September 11 to restore critical transportation service, and it is gratifying that their dedication has been recognized by the American Public Transportation Association. The PATH system has always been one of the most important links between New York and New Jersey, impacting our economy and our quality of life.
Restoring the PATH service is a top priority as we work to rebuild and to revitalize Lower Manhattan and our entire region.”
Port Authority Chairman Jack G. Sinagra said, “The spirit of PATH employees has truly been phenomenal since September 11. The Board of Commissioners sincerely thanks all of them for their hard work and dedication, and wants them to know that the restoration of PATH’s downtown service is the agency’s top priority.”
Port Authority Vice Chairman Charles A. Gargano said, “New Yorkers clearly recognize that PATH is a key component in the revitalization of Lower Manhattan. We are extremely proud of the efforts of PATH staff to move quickly and efficiently to restore service to the World Trade Center site.”
Port Authority Executive Director Joseph J. Seymour said, “I congratulate all PATH employees for their hard work and dedication and am pleased they are being recognized at a national level for running a cost effective, customer-friendly service.”
APTA President William W. Millar said, “PATH has a solid record of commitment to customer service. On September 11, that commitment not only saved countless lives, but provided a lifeline for commuters to return safely to their communities. PATH’s record of achievement continues and APTA is proud to honor PATH and its employees with the transit industry’s highest award.”
Prior to September 11, 2001, PATH was on track to set new records in several key categories, including ridership, on-time performance and equipment reliability.
PATH staff prevented further casualties at the World Trade Center after the attacks. Moments after the first plane struck Tower One, PATH’s deputy director spoke to the PATH trainmaster, telling him to immediately stop all train service to the World Trade Center Station.
In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, the World Trade Center Station was destroyed and the Exchange Place Station in Jersey City was severely damaged. Although PATH and other transportation facilities in the region were initially shut, the rail system was back in service shortly after 4 p.m. on September 11, providing modified service to patrons.
Since that time, PATH has operated a modified service that carries all New York-bound passengers to the uptown stations at Christopher Street, 9th Street, 14th Street, 23rd Street and 33 rd Street. A $544 million rebuilding effort is under way to restore the two tunnels leading into and out of the World Trade Center site – which were flooded after September 11 – as well as the Exchange Place Station and the World Trade Center station. Service is scheduled to resume to the Exchange Place Station by June 2003 and to the temporary station at the World Trade Center site by December 2003.
In the midst of the rebuilding efforts, PATH also introduced a unique train tracking system this year that provides customers with the status of the next train to arrive at their station. The information is provided on more than 100 PATHVision monitors that also provide passengers with news, weather, sports and other service information.
PATH staff also prepared plans to replace its aging fleet of rail cars, and its signal and fare collection systems.
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey operates some of the busiest and most important transportation links in the region. They include Kennedy International, Newark Liberty International, LaGuardia and Teterboro airports; the George Washington Bridge; the Lincoln and Holland tunnels; the three bridges between Staten Island and New Jersey; the PATH rapid-transit system; the Downtown Manhattan Heliport; Port Newark; the Elizabeth-Port Authority Marine Terminal; the Howland Hook Marine Terminal on Staten Island; the Brooklyn Piers/Red Hook Container Terminal; and the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan. The agency is financially self-supporting and receives no tax revenue from either state."
Two of its primary terminals? What's the second? (Exchange Place isn't a terminal, let alone a primary one.)
Unless they mean that temporarily they shut down service to 33rd St.
Also, was Exchange Place really "heavily" damaged? They're doing major work to make it a terminal station now, but I hadn't heard that the flooding went as far west as Exchange Place.
Exchange Place is downhill from the former WTC station, though not the low point in the tunnel (that's under the river).
Any word on the new fleet of Path Cars?? You would think that they would want to have something to show off when they finally open the line. I know trains can't be built in one year though. Does anyone have any designs or pics of what the new car would look like?
i guess Coney island is giving Jamaica R32s. I rode 3862 yesterday, then i just realized. THAT WAS A FORMER N TRAIN! I have pictures of it on the N, not to mention i rode it as a Manhattan bound N before the W came along. train hit 65mph!
You haven't been paying attention lately have you? [If it's because you've been working hard, then you're forgiven].
When ENY gets a 143 order, they ship a 40M consist to CI. In turn, CI sends an R32 consist to JYD to make up for a car shortage.
Also, Jamaica Yard may release its Phase I R32s back to Pitkin Yard for car shortage.
Chaohwa
yea i need to be forgiven. ima overnight Custodian at Grand Central for MTA Metro North. I work 11pm-7am
I am trying to get directions from 321 West 125 Street, NYC to 21 Bloomingdale Rd. White Plains via Subway and bus
Call 718-330-1234
Easiest way: Any 125 St crosstown bus to Park Av, then Metro-North (Harlem Line) to White Plains.
Railfan/El cheapo way:
1) Uptown B or D train from 125 St/St. Nicholas Av to Bedford Park Blvd., Bronx.
-transfer-
2) Bee-line #20 or #21 bus to White Plains.
Metrocards and Metrocard transfers are NOT ACCEPTED on Bee-line buses. You'll have to pay another fare.
hey guys just letting you know DIRECTLY from a fellow LIRR engineer, that classes for Locomotive Engineer are beginning probably by january or febuary of 2003. ANYONE who thinks they want to apply, START APPLYING NOW!!!!! NOT NOW BUT RIGHT NOW! i am expecting to be called myself. good luck to you all!
Just for the curious:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nysex032949735oct03,0,6038603.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dreddots%2Dheadlines
I guess now that O & A are off the air I might as well UN-pre-set my car radio to WNEW. It was fun while it lasted!!
I stopped shortly after the good people disappered. O & A and Ferrall. I miss them so much. Now it's nothing more but Ron and Fez. The station has gone off the deep end for sure.
Jeff, don't tune out 102.7! There's still hope with Ron and Fez! Have you listened to those guys? They're as funny as O & A, although not as risque...
(I'm a Ron n' Fez 'Big Ass Card' holder so giving them a plug was in order...)
Can I still keep my WOW sticker?
For sure! O & A were friends of Ron 'n Fez...
You know, they weren't fired for the stunt, nor the aftermath of it. The only reason they were fired was because the advertisers started dropping their ads. If that didn't happen, they'd still be on the air.
Rumor has them popping up on XM radio. Probably the only thing that'll get me to buy it...maybe.
-Hank
Six times, three hours!? Some should give Bryan a gold medal for doing all that. :-)
Someone oughta introduce the LIRR trio to this couple :)
Yeah, baby!
--Mark
Last march I ventured out to arlington yard and howland hook to see what the condition of the 1990 refurbished yard was like. I posted some pictures online at http://www.nyrail.org/nyct/sir/sirt-arlington/, but I have not officially created an organized page for them. But check them out anyway.
Now posting from Rochester, NY,
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Thank you for the pics.
Why is the SIR connection to the yard still there? They dont need it. Also how was your trip? Is the yard off-limits?
The SIR ROW still exists (meaning not filled in or demolished) all the way to Port Richmond. From Port Richmond to St. George, the ROW is mainly either demolished, filled in or built and paved upon. Some parts, like by Snug Harbor, some tracks can still be found, but they are short segments. In a nutshell, there is NO connection to the SIR via north shore.
My trip went well. Arlington is a rough neighborhood, so I kept my digital camera out of view. The tracks are frequently crossed by residents as a shortcut so they don't have to walk all the way to the bridge. I just walked along the tracks west to AK-1 bridge. There were no "prpoerty of.." signs and no "no trespassing" signs. The yard is empty and devoid of all people including security. Howland Hook container port has a lot of security though.
I think bus S44 goes there from St. George.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Refurbished? I hardly think what's in yourpicture counts as refurbished.
The bridge approach and yard was refurbished by the city of new york in 1990 for an expected growth of use of the line to jersey by conrail. Take a look at some of the yard tracks. They are in very good condition--ties not rotted, track aligned well, no large gaps at rail joints, longitudinal stabiliters on every other tie, tamped ballast. That's not the track you'd find on a normally abandoned line of 40 years.
-Dan
OK, gotcha.
Later, around 1999, actually. Service didn't end on the line until 1993.
The line isn't 'built on' beyond Port Richmond, and only the section from Jersey St to Ballpark station was demolished. Much of the ROW runs through private property, and it's been encroached upon by easily movable things, such as a large pile of salt. Between Atlantic Salt and Snug Harbor, much of the ROW has washed away, leaving rails and ties hanging in mid-air. Beyond Snug Harbor to the begining of the viaduct near Port Richmond, the ROW runs through a number of shipyards, all of which have placed material and such on the ROW. The entire ROW on Staten Island is owned by the NYC Economic Development Corporation, and money has been allocated to shore up what remains and study restoring service to the St. George area to a possible new float bridge to connect to the 65th Street yard in Brooklyn.
-Hank
TSTC says: "The Port Authority is also a month away from completing a feasibility study for using tracks between Port Richmond and the St. George Ferry Terminal for passenger rail service along the North Shore. Passenger rail was suspended on the line in 1953.The main obstacle to passenger service is the dismal condition of the tracks, which could cost up to $200 million to fix, and the relatively low settlement densities along the corridor." Click here for the complete article.
The route of the North Shore tracks is one of the main impedements to getting it re-established. Just as the current SIRT at Thompkinsville, Stapleton and Clifton can draw passengers from only one direction because it was built next to the shoreline, the North Shore route also can only draw passengers from one direction from St. George to Port Richmond because of its placement.
It would be tough enough to rebuild the line now along its former path, let alone relocate it away from the shore. If they ever did do it though, the route's terminus west (or south) of Port Richmond and how many passengers it could draw from those areas would determine whether or not restoration was viable.
How about building a concrete el structure similar to the 7 Queens Blvd viaduct above Richmond Terrace?
Thr problem isn't with the line being above or below Richmond Terrace, the problem is only boat yards are north (or west) of most of Richmond Terrace, which limits the number of passengers it could attract to only one directon; south and/or east of the line.
Part of its viability would rest on setting up Park N Ride lots and using feeder buses. Current bus routes would be realigned to take people to SIRT stations. Bus service in the same direction and very close to the North Shore line would be curtailed or eliminated.
I suppose you could run bus service towards the North Shore line stations, instead of towards St. George. The question would be whether or not this was faster than direct bus service to the ferry terminal, and I suspect the answer would be for most passengers north of Richmond Ave., "No."
What kind of passenger service? Has anyone ever considered running the PATH through Newark Airport, into Port Elizabeth and over the Arthur Kill?.
"Has anyone ever considered running the PATH through Newark Airport, into Port Elizabeth and over the Arthur Kill?. "
The Port Authority is studying an extension of PATH along the NEC ROW to the Newark Airport Rail Station.
Relatively low? Ever ride a bus along Richmond Terrace during rush hour? Rail service would be a dramatic improvement.
-Hank
Nice photos. BTW, where is your website hosted? The connection is really fast!
---Brian
soniqhost.com hosts nyrail.org
-Dan
I have to admit, these are excellent photos. Those close-ups of the bridge are awesome. It's a shame this section of railroad is not being used by any rail carrier. I find it wild, not finding any caution signs on the bridge. I wonder if the bridge is functional at all? If business is starting to boom at Howland Hook, maybe CSX, what's left of ConRail, Norfolk Southern, or Morristown and Erie can revive freight service on this line.
There is already talks going on about the future usage of the Arlington Yard and the Howland Hook Marine Terminal. Good word is that CSXT, NS and Conrail Shared Assets are being considered as candidates for the reopening of the yard and the rail line, to establish intermodal rail service between NY and NJ, and the area ports, but no plans have been finalized yet. The line is in fairly good shape, giving it hasn't been used in a while, though if any final plans are made to reopen the line to freight traffic, there will still need to be upgrades, such as an improved signal system, overhauls for AK Drawbridge (mechanical apparatus for the lift pulleys), newer trackage (sure the tracks appear in good shape, but never forget how long they been disused, and might not hold up well to the stresses of frequent train traffic, and heavier trains) and the biggest challenge (money-wise) is in NJ, where the west approach to AK needs to be rebuilt completely, giving the wooden structure is nowhere near good enough to hold up heavy trains and is in quite a bit of disrepair. Also Conrail Shared Assets, along with CSXT want to build a multi-million dollar rail connection from the SIR line to CR Chemical Coast Secondary line, and NJ State DOT has to make a decision to fund the building of the rail connection, and who will ultimately operate it. If this the line and connections are ever built, they are also considering tying this line into the future Cross Harbor Rail Tunnel line whenever plans come forth to build the tunnel from Greenville N.J. to Bay Ridge. We'll see what comes of everything once all the political and monetary squabbling is done. As for the pictures, thanks!!
If the Arlington Yard is rebuilt and reopened, How much more truck traffic would there be on the Verrazano Bridge? Probably there would be less traffic along Canal St from Holland Tunnel to Manhattan Bridge. But how much would be going across the Verrazano? And would the Brooklyn side be able to handle the traffic?
None. The object is to removetrucks from the Goethals Bridge. Currently containers to and from the port come from the railheads in New Jersey. Once the line is connected to the national network, those truck shuttles cease. The only traffic that will arrive and depart the terminal by truck will be bound for local destinations.
-Hank
You wouldn't happen to have any pics with the bridge in the lowered position, would you? I have seen that bridge in the raised position since I was a kid. I'm curious to see what it looks like.
I've seen it down, but it was when I was much younger and didn't have a camera. I've NEVER seen a train cross it, nor have I ever seen a freight train on Staten Island at all.
-Hank
I've seen some abandoned freight cars on SI when I was young (like 12 years ago). Spome old rotting boxcars and flatcars were lying around the tracks near St. George until the new parking lot was built around 1994.
-Dan
Norfolk Southern has been designated operator of the line, but it will take nearly a year to build a connection to the Chemical Coast line. The Port Authority is responsible for the connection on the New Jersey side. The bridge has been fully rehabbed, and is perfectly functional as of October 2000.
The booming business at Howland Hook was the final push to get the line finished. It is expected the line will see 7 to 10 trains a day by 2007, but I expect to see that kind of traffic by 2005.
-Hank
Would this renassance become the catalyst for the eventual construction of a frieght rail tunnel between New Jersey and New York, or even Staten Island and Brooklyn? O, the power of money!
Dan, Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed your photos very much.
Mr t
Subtalk has discussed several times the logistics of the #4 Yankee post-game specials. My question is, does the D train run similar specials? And if so, how do they operate? How many are run, and where do they lay up while waiting for the game to end?
Yes.
Not sure what you mean
Depends on the how many people are at the game.
Uptown.
>>>>>>>Does the D train run similar specials? And if so, how do they operate?
In service from 161 St to 34 St. Under the old service pattern, they ran all the way to Coney Island.
In both cases, after completion, the train returns without passengers to Concourse Yard.
>>>>>>How many are run?
Depends on the expected crowd at Yankee Stadium. The maximum for say a World Series game is 4.
>>>>>>>>And where do they lay up while waiting for the game to end?
They stay at Concourse Yard up until about the 7th inning, then they deadhead to 167 St middle track and wait for further instructions.
Four trains for a playoff game! The #4 uses 6-10 trains for the playoff and/or when the Mets come to the Stadium. Then again you got to whisk away the UESiders and people going to GCT.
Perhaps more people want the #4.......a full length 600' D train can fit a hell of a lot more people than a #4 train with 510' of train.
Yeah. The #4 is the official train of the New York Yankees. During the Subway Series, it was the #7 vs. #4. D train did not fit into the picture at all.
Subbus is right though about UESiders. They're huge Yankee fans. Yuppies love the Yankees. The Yankees, and George Steinbrenner represent everything the UESide is about.
And I bet when the Yanks start to suck again, they won't be going to the games anymore.
And I believe under the old plan that these specials ran express down the Brighton Line to Coney Island.
--Mark
Nope, they made all local stops under the old plan.
And they better win Saturday because I have an RDO with baseball special #4 on Sunday!
Well they didn't win. They got their asses kicked in good by our California boys. I was there cheering the Anaheim Angels and ripping into that greedy money grubber Giambi and that pathetic excuse for a clutch hitter Mondesi. The crowd was loud, vocal and enthusiastic and I hope the Bronx Bumblers have a nice trip home. Hey Steinbrenner, wait 'till next year. Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!
You should be stripped of your SubTalk posting privileges, you poor excuse for an ex-New Yorker.
Hey Steve, you're right on one thing. I am an EX-New Yorker because I am a Californian, have been for 48 years. Doesn't mean I diss New York because I don't. It's the greatest city in the world in my book and I am looking forward to my visit next week, and have been exited about it for six months. But the Yankees are another story. It's been an antagonistic hatred for that team since I was seven years old. But to lose my posting privileges because of that? Oh, no. That would be worse than exile on Devils Island. Being on this board is one of my real pleasures in life. Please don't suggest things so drastic as that. You're hitting me below the belt.
OK..Yankee haters...Yankees lovers...can we all agree on one thing?
NO MORE F&^%$#*&@ TOMAHAWK CHOP CRAP!!!
Jeez I hope Atlanta loses.
Beware... there are Braves fans here too :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nah, Ted Turner SOLD Hotlanta to Stevie Case and AOL. Nobody CARES about the Braves, aside from "what R U wearing?" (standard AOL answer to da question is "a black teddy of course." INCLUDING the damned team) Yeah, John Rocker ... SCREW the #7 train ... come ride the BEAST! :)
MP: We can all agree on that one. Let me give you an example. In 1996 and 1999 the Yankees played the Braves in the World Series. You know how much I hate the Yankees, right? I rooted for them in both Series. Can you guess what I think of the Braves? Yes, I dislike that team more than any other.
It was kind of interesting, too, to see those shots of supposedly left-wing Jane Fonda doing the Tomahawk chop, and she and hubbie Ted both dozing off in the stands. Almost makes the sight of a fat, shirtless guy with a spray-painted body look classy by comparison.
MP: Why ruin a good weekendby mentioning those two worthless human beings?
For the play-offs, we use 4 or 5 trains. They are staged north of 161 St. and will run to 34th St (or W4th St) and then light back to Concourse yard. Most often, B trains, scheduled for lay-up are used as baseball specials. In addition, spare (gap) trains are kept in the ready at Concourse yard.
Do any post-Yankee game trains, either the specials or the regular D trains, run local on CPW? While most passengers are probably going to 59th or beyond, I'm sure there's some demand for local service, more than during an average evening or weekday.
You have the B train running local down CPW so the D would be redundant. Northbound, if a day game ends during the PM rush, D express trains will be sent up the local tracks.
After rush hours, the B terminates at 145th. If both the specials and the regular D trains run express, there's no direct access from the stadium to CPW local stations. (I'm assuming all games end after rush hour.)
Instead of having D specials, maybe it would make more sense to have B specials -- special in that they enter service at 161st rather than 145th.
Dave, don't fret about that small stuff now. You're boys are as dead as the Pharoahs.
I don't know about the D, but I did get a #4 Yankee special downtown after the game. The train was completely empty until everyone got on, of course. -Nick
I don't know what the current put-in procedures are regarding post-game "D" service; back in 1969 (July 20, 1969) we were treated to a "D" put-in after the Bat Day win over Washington - and it was a brand-spanking-new and ICE COLD R42, with its huge orange "D" sign lit up like a halloween pumpkin - and they left the a/c cranking during the wait, the windows were fogged up so bad we couldnt see in, and it was as cold as a walk-in fridge. Our car, #4654, transferred to "B" service later in the year once the 4700-series cars began to arrive.
wayne
On July 20, 1969, I was on a weekend pass from the National Guard's Summer Camp and attended the Dodgers-Giants game at Candlestick Park. Somewhere in the third or fourth inning the announcer said we had successfully landed on the Moon. Right after that Willie McCovey, that year's MVP, his a prodigious three run homer to ice the game.
Yes, they stopped the Yankee game at 4:16PM to announce the Moon landing, and they played the National Anthem as well. Yankee HRs that day came from Bobby Murcer (to RF) and Ron Woods (to LF). Frank Howard hit one for Wash.
wayne
July 20, 1969 wasn't terribly hot, IIRC. We went up to Putnam, CT to visit my sister who was at the summer girl's camp they used to have at the IC convent. They had a TV set up and we watched the moon landing there.
The Mets split a twin bill with Expos that day and went into the All Star break with a 53-39 record.
It was cloudy and muggy. Might have been 80 or so. Down in the subway it was hotter.
wayne
It was clear and mild in San Francisco, about 71 degrees as I remember hearing them say before the game. There were white puffy clouds in the sky and a nice breeze. All together a fine day. 1969 was a pretty good year as I got engaged to my wife and was finishing by first full year of teaching. That plus it was the last National Guard Summer Camp I had to attend.
We ALMOST got to Woodstock that year, I went with the older brother of a neighborhood friend, along with a half-dozen or so assorted other folks, we got about 7 miles from the site and bogged down in traffic, rain, mud and beer.
wayne
I went into the city on that Sunday, August 17. My cousins were visiting us and my aunt drove us to Battery Park and dropped us off. We went out to the Statue and climbed to the top; it was brutally hot during that long climb. After that it was off to the Empire State Building. And to top it off, I took them on a CPW express joyride on an A train. Then our bus had an accident on the way home.
1969 was a great year for the Mets and their fans. I remember it well.
I'll bet it felt great on that air-conditioned train.
According to Rail Travel News #649 just delivered today, a contributor noted he saw on a flatbed truck on I-81 going north from Scranton to Binghamton a subway car #215 mounted on its trucks with blue and white painted ends, but no other name.
Could that be the R44 that in the Bronx stripped for fire-fighter training ?
Maybe, then again, maybe starting a new life as a roadside hot dog stand !
Don't laugh, a SEPTA Broad St. subway car was a roadside hotdog stand in Connecticut. I think it was moved elsewhere in the Nutmeg State.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was at Forest Hills station today. The train arrived westbound about 1:20, and returned eastbound about 2:00. Is this the usual test schedule? I want to go back tomorrow.
I saw the M-7's going eastbound and stopping at Copiague station. Simulated stop, opening the doors on the other side. The eastbound one was about 12:20PM and westbound at 12:45PM. This was today (10/3).
Bill "Newkirk"
Saw that same train eastbound at Rockville Centre at 11:45.
Also, again eastbound on the express track through Forest Hills at about 10:50 this evening.
This is different from the schedule that they were following last week, but Bill "Newkirk"'s and Robert from Queens' observations are consistent with others that I've seen this week. It seems that they are changing the schedule weekly, so it's a pretty good bet that the train will be in the same places at those times tomorrow but on a different schedule next week.
CG
Read all about me here!
DAMN! Hyperlink didn't work ... I'll try again soon - I'm getting kicked out of the school library now... stay tuned.
here!
jersey - you need to put a space in between the "A" and the "HREF", you almost had it
I was working over at JFK Cargo area today, saw the remains of the fatal AirTrain wreck on the el over by the Federal Circle Amoco. Driving home, I had a scary thought:
There are two curves with high speed straights at either end of the elevated over the Van Wyck. If a train derailing in those curves hit those concrete sidewalls and ripped them off the structure, just like they did at Federal Circle, those concrete chunks WOULD BE FALLING ON TRAFFIC BELOW!!
Probably before the line opens, there will be a permanent slow speed order at both locations.
Isn't the train automatic anyway?? I think the driver was just testing the train out. Once the service starts computers will run the train ???
There are many of these setups on subways all over the country, how often do you see wrecks on them?
That's a scary thought all right. One of the tv news reports on the day of the accident mentioned that if the accident had happened a short distance further north, the concrete blocks would have fallen onto the Van Wyck.
As Douce Man said, trains will likely be slowed down at those curves, and anywhere else where it is deemed necessary. There's really nothing to worry about....the trains will be automated, and nothing can go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...
Anybody remember the old movie "WestWorld"?
:-)
G1RD
That was a cool movie, but in no way related to this discussion.
Computers do fail. Programs have bugs. etc
Well, yes, but West World was not really about computers and programs having bugs. It was an essay on the dangers of technology to society, in the same vein as movies which depict cyborgs rebelling and turning on their human masters etc.
Have you read Asimov's "I, Robot?"
Yes. A long time ago.
Jesus Christ, if you're that paranoid, like half the people on this board, please turn off your computer and head for the nearest Amish or Luddite settlement.
The simple fact is people movers are pretty much the most reliable transit systems in the world. The Westinghouse/ADtranz system has a 99.9% reliabilty rate (according to their now gone web site), far better than any human operated subway. Do you think that humans DON'T fail? Computers fail only when you run Windows :-) Give me one automated train crash, and I'll give you two or more human operated crashes. Computer operated transit is commonplace in most of the world, including sysytems older and more intensely used than NYCT. As to why NYC can't get their act together with this well-proven concept is beyond me.
Washington Metrorail runs on computers. So do most airplanes (flight engineers are a disappearing breed). Soi do spacecraft, and submarines. Car engines depend on microprocessors. Should we worry about that as we're going 65 mph down the expressway? Modern X-ray equipment depends on computer controls, and so does food and medicine manufacturing.
>>> Washington Metrorail runs on computers. So do most airplanes (flight engineers are a disappearing breed). <<<
I do not fly enough to know if it is now in common use, but back in the late ‘60s I remember landing at Heathrow on a KLM air liner that was being guided by computer to land with the pilots just monitoring the controls. The noises were a bit upsetting, because the trim controls were changing every second causing the sound of hydraulics almost continuously, but we had been informed by the flight attendants that these sounds were normal. The landing was as smooth as any I have ever experienced. Supposedly the system could allow a plane to land successfully in zero visibility. I guess that would have been an application where "the blue screen of death" would truly signal a fatal error.
Tom
Such systems are now available for most passenger jets, and indeed a similar system, called CAINS, is available to guide a naval aircraft to a perfect "three-wire" landing on an aircraft carrier.
Most pilots do not want to use such systems, because they claim it will dull their senses and encourage their skills to atrophy.
Is it theoretically possible right now to fly a plane from take off to landing with no pilot?
Yes. Boeing and Airbus have developed such systems. At the moment, all the pilots are really responsible for is takeoffs and landings. The computers do the rest.
-Hank
"At the moment, all the pilots are really responsible for is takeoffs and landings. The computers do the rest."
How does the computer receive the air traffic controller's request to make a turn? Do the controller's instructions get sent via a digital signal as well as by voice?
"How does the computer receive the air traffic controller's request to make a turn? Do the controller's instructions get sent via a digital signal as well as by voice?"
No. The autopilot can execute a takeoff (infrequently used) - it then can be set to fly at a particular altitude and speed, and can be programmed to aim for a waypoint (VOR - omnidirectional radio beacon). When the airplane reaches that waypoint, the autopilot aims the airplane for the next waypoint.
Air traffic control instructions received by the pilot require manual pilot input.
There is software which will fly a plane by remote control, but this is not used in commercial aviation.
There is software which will fly a plane by remote control, but this is not used in commercial aviation.
There was some media and industry discussion about installation of such systems in the immediate post-9/11 period, when fears were at their highest. As far as I know, the discussions gradually faded away even though the systems would be technically possible to implement - at, needless to say, massive cost.
The system is in use with the military (pilotless drones), and the FAA has used it to do things like fly a 707 by remote control into pylons to test the fuel system's propensity to start a fire. Older military aircraft, like the F-102 Delta Dart, were modified into pilotless target drones (operated by autopilot) for live air-to-air and surface-to-air missile tests.
Actually, the computers can do the take-offs and landings too. The pilots dont want them too, though. I can understand why.
Heck, the military has had drones for the past 90 or so years, going back to the Doodlebugs if I remember the name correctly. Today we have stuff like the RQ-1 Predator, the CIA's GNAT 750 and the U-2 replacing RQ-4 Global Hawk that are pilotless, and, in the case of the RQ-4 highly automated. Right now a guy in a monitor filled building nearby the runway does the climb up and let dowm, all the flight other than that is wholey automated. The computer recives a set of coordinates telling it to go halfway around the globe, it goes, checks it out, relays to a satellite all that it sees, and should it survive, turns and heads back to the US, finally, some 36 or so hours later, it comes under remote control for the last portion. And never a Francis Gary Powers in danger, with a much cheaper airframe, nor countrys to sweet talk or place at risk, cause it takes off from american soil, and lands on american soil.
I think the big sticking points with automatic landing systems is getting the plane down in poor weather. How do you teach a computer to crab into the wind and to pull it out at just the right moment? A computer may be able to do it on a sunny day with a nice breeze right down the centerline of the runway, but then again, so can I. Just pull out of the down wind, start the decent, line up the ILS if you are using (so far I haven't outside simulators), check the VASI, if any, and just float her over the lines. If you have control of the plane, take off and landing are the most nervous, and yet, strangely, the most fun parts of any flight. But toss in a driving rain, crosswinds of maybe 15-20 mph, and a ceiling of 2000' and you are talking a whole new ballgame here, most pilots wouldn't be able to deal with that, and I suspect that many computers would just end up backlogged, overfilled with stuff going on.
"Car engines depend on microprocessors."
Not a good example. Last year I was driving along a desolate country road at midnight when my car's engine just stopped. A microprocessor had failed, and the mechanic says it happens all the time.
I do believe that computer hardware and software can be made safer than humans, but it takes extensive and well-planned testing.
Given how technologically oriented many people on this board are, I've personally been amazed at the percentage of people posting here who seem to believe that NYCT will never get CBTC to work.
If it happened all the time, with millions of cars on the road, don't you think you'd see a LOT more breakdowns?
Obviously, it DOESN'T happen all the time.
-Hank
"Obviously, it DOESN'T happen all the time."
"It happens all the time" is a colloquial expression that means "I see this kind of situation frequently."
True, but it says nothing about the frequency of the problem occurring among the brand's population. So you don't really know just how likely a particular car will fail due to that reason. If the car fails, the mechanic can probably tell you what proportion of failures are due to any particular reason.
"So you don't really know just how likely a particular car will fail due to that reason."
You're absolutely right. But you wouldn't want the mechanics who fix the L train's CBTC system to be saying "that piece of software fails all the time" when that is a piece of software that is required for forward motion of the train.
If CBTC trains are only as reliable as autos, people will get pretty upset. But they can be made much more reliable, with proper testing.
"You're absolutely right. But you wouldn't want the mechanics who fix the L train's CBTC system to be saying "that piece of software fails all the time" when that is a piece of software that is required for forward motion of the train."
No, you're not there yet. Even if failures are very rare, chances are one type of failure may outnumber others in total incidence. That by itself means very little.
What you really want to ask is:
1) What is the safety-critical failure rate? Is it above a threshold we determine to be unacceptable?
2) What, in descending order, are the most common failure modes? Are they related or independent?
3) How do we address each failure mode? Are any inherent in the design?
"Not a good example. Last year I was driving along a desolate country road at midnight when my car's engine just stopped. A microprocessor had failed, and the mechanic says it happens all the time."
Your reasoning is faulty.
The mechanic says so because he/she works with those problems every day. The mechanic may be very good about knowing what proportion of problems are due to microprocessor failure, but probably does not know the rate of failure of microprocessors in cars per se (meaning, the denominator if the numerator is failed microprocessors of cars brand whatever).
You may be confusing one with the other.
In any case, of COURSE the mechanic sees broken cars all the time. That's why mechanics exist - to fix broken cars. That said, they do have their favorites, but I'd be worried if a mechanic wasn't seeing lots of broken cars...
"That said, they do have their favorites, but I'd be worried if a mechanic wasn't seeing lots of broken cars..."
Oh, come now, Philip. You don't believe in the legend of the Maytag repairman?
:0)
My parents bought Maytag washer and dryer a few months back. They just had the agitator drive assembly replaced on the washer.
-Hank
That's unusual, especially for that part. I have a top-loading Maytag washer at our house in North Carolina that has run for over sixteen years, including daily loads of diapers when it was new, that has never needed a repair, and I've got a Maytag Neptune front-loading washer and dryer at our house in New Jersey, now almost five years old, that has needed one repair, covered under warranty (modern electronic controls that sense the water level... the electronic circuit board decided the washer was full of water as soon as the first drop came in).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given how technologically oriented many people on this board are, I've personally been amazed at the percentage of people posting here who seem to believe that NYCT will never get CBTC to work.
I'd chalk it up to a lack of faith in NYCT's ability to innovate.
Computer operated transit is commonplace in most of the world, including sysytems older and more intensely used than NYCT. As to why NYC can't get their act together with this well-proven concept is beyond me.
Welcome to New York - the city where "progress" is a four-letter word.
The first automated airport system in the U.S. debuted with the opening of the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in 1974 -- before the R-46 cars were ever delivered to NYCTA. It had bugs of its own, like the car and platform doors not aligning at the station (personal experience taking here), but those bugs have been worked out now, and the system will be starting its fourth decade of operation two years from now.
So the JFK AirTrain system is about to it what the IND Eighth Ave. line was to Contract 1 on the IRT when it opened in 1932 -- there may be some newer technology involved, but the concept of ZPTO itself has been in practice for a generation.
I'm sure the DFW system is pretty safe and reliable, but about 15 years ago I was on it and it came to a switch and took 15 minutes to decide whether it wanted to go right or left. I almost missed my connecting flight.
No suprise there. It got so bad in the early 1980s that some of the rental car companies gave up on it, and went back to van service from their lots to the various terminals in order to avoid having people miss their flights (D-FW has seperate terminals like JFK but is the freakin' size of Manhattan, so a screw up back then by the tram could mean a 30-45 minute delay in getting back to the proper terminal). It's better now, but there may still be an occassional screw-up.
The first automated airport system in the U.S. debuted with the opening of the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in 1974 -- before the R-46 cars were ever delivered to NYCTA. It had bugs of its own, like the car and platform doors not aligning at the station (personal experience talking here), but those bugs have been worked out now, and the system will be starting its fourth decade of operation two years from now.
So the JFK AirTrain system is about to it what the IND Eighth Ave. line was to Contract 1 on the IRT when it opened in 1932 -- there may be some newer technology involved, but the concept of ZPTO itself has been in practice for a generation.
Computer operated transit is commonplace in most of the world, including sysytems older and more intensely used than NYCT
Name one.
I can name 48 of them that have a higher ridership intensity, but I'd rather just link to this list.
I ones I can think of off the top of my head about which ones are computer controlled in the above 48, there is:
Hong Kong
Sao Paulo
Tokyo
Mexico City
Paris and London are older, and they both have portions which are computer controlled. And almost every subway in the world no longer has or ever had the 100 year old block signaling technology NYCT uses, I don't believe any subway built before 1900 still has them (maybe Boston still does? How about PATH?) which means that NYCT probably has the lowest amount of computer operation in the world. Pathetic for such a large system.
That's all I can of think of right now, but more it's more than the one you requested.
That ridership intensity metric is biased against systems with express service.
AFAIK, the oldest computer-controlled section of the London Underground is the Victoria line, built in the 60's or 70's. I don't know about Paris.
Are you sure? According to this (I believe the poster is a Subtalker) NYCT has 328 double track miles. Multiply 328 by 5.0 (from the table), and you get 1.624 billion riders. This matches up exactly with the APTA 1999 ridership. WMATA matches up with their 1999 ridership also. Therefore, I think they took express tracks into account.
No, what I'm suggesting is that the presence of express tracks encourages longer rides. (So does a uniform, distance-independent fare.) If New Yorkers take longer rides than average, then their ridership intensity (passengers per line mile) is naturally going to be relatively low.
I understand where you're coming from, but that table is all that I could find :-)
But...every system has different average distances between stations and peculiar things that make it hard to have a uniform measurement. Let's say we use passengers per station, how would you count the number of stations on a line? Would you count the number of physical stations, or count seperately the stops the locals and expresses make? It wouldn't be fair to cont express statinos twice, because it will lower the intentisy. If we count the phyiscal stations, then it wouldn't reflect the expresses skipping some stops.
I think the passengers per mile is the "best" we have because it takes into account how spread out passengers are in a system.
BART has an average distance of 2.5 miles per station, so they end up with a low intensity count. They can afford to run multiple trains between two stations and not have crowded trains. If BART's average distance became .6 miles, you wouldn't be able run several trains between two stations, so you'll get more crowding with the same number of people, thus more intensity.
Seeing it the other way, Sao Paulo, the #2 system, has an average distance of .6 miles between each station. This is a very dense station network. They run a whopping 98 trains over 30 route miles. That is about two trains bewteen each station (.3 miles apart!). If the stations were 2.5 miles apart, they would be able to run four times as many trains, which will cause the number of people per train to lower, and make for a lower intensity. Or if they kept the same number of trains, the headway frequency will lower and that too causes less intensity.
Paris and London are older, and they both have portions which are computer controlled...
Right. According to your own table, London has less ridership "intensity", and Paris is more intense but it isn't computer controlled. Of course, there are lines on the Paris Metro that have more advanced signalling than NYCTA, but they are not "computer controlled". The only real systems that are "computer controlled" are systems like BART and WMATA (Isn't it true that on WMATA that the operator still has to manualize?) That kind of computer control simply will not work on complex system with historical quirks and constraints like the NYCTA.
I have experience dealing with IECC type installations. They are a pain in the ass. They are probably not what you want for the NYCTA except perhaps on isolated lines where the operation is very simple.
AEM7
We have four such lines: the two shuttles (Franklin Av and 42nd St), and the 7 IRT and L BMT lines. Aditionally, certain portions of other lines are simple (the Bronx portion of the 4 line not counting special baseball game service, and the G train in the part of the route it travels all by itself.
Assuming normal operation, the 1/9 and the 6 are kept isolated as well, except late nights, when the 2 and 4 also run local. OTOH, assuming normal operation is a big mistake.
Paris is more intense but it isn't computer controlled. Of course, there are lines on the Paris Metro
The Meteor Line (14) is completely computer controlled.
Jesus Christ, if you're that paranoid, like half the people on this board, please turn off your computer and head for the nearest Amish or Luddite settlement
I'm not paranoid. Computers (and there parts)are designed by humans. Were not perfect (and can't be). It is human nature to demand perfection from everyone else but say it is OK for us to make the occasional mistake.
Remember when Intel had a flaw in one of there chips. It would only appear in a very tiny percentage of situations but it did happen.
The WAMTA crash a few years ago. It was determined that if a train overshot the station that it could receive a full speed signal instead of a restricted speed signal.
Recently a satellite was lost because the program was in metric and a command in inches was transmitted (or vice versa).
All I was trying to say was that computers are not perfect 100% of the time.
And just for the record - I work with computers !!!
Of course computers aren't perfect 100% of the time. There is nothing on earth that is 100% perfect, except the laws of physics.
And for more irony, I kind of sick of working with computers! But that's why there are people like you to do that stuff for me :-)
"There is nothing on earth that is 100% perfect, except the laws of physics."
But I'd sure like the software that runs a plane or a CBTC system to fail catastrophically once per trillion vehicle miles rather than once per million vehicle miles. (I suppose the actual acceptable failure rate is somewhere in between).
Recently a satellite was lost because the program was in metric and a command in inches was transmitted (or vice versa).
All I was trying to say was that computers are not perfect 100% of the time.
I'd call that satellite incident a prime example of human error.
Indeed it was. A space probe lost decades ago was set off course by the presence of a comma in place of a semicolon in a Fortran program. The program was written by humans and had not been fully debugged by humans.
A space probe lost decades ago was set off course by the presence of a comma in place of a semicolon in a Fortran program.
semicolons are not used in FORTRAN. It should have been a period. It was the start of a DO loop; the statement should have been something like:
DO 100 I=1,10
and turned out to be:
DO 100 I=1.10
FORTRAN compilers removed all embedded spaces after column 6 on the instruction line. It compiled the bad statement as a variable assignment:
DO10I = 1.10
Thank you, Stephen. I was never a FORTRAN programmer, and so the story lost a little in translation for me.
When I did it for a living years ago, I used primarily COBOL, CLists, Job Control Language, IBM Basic and C.
One thing that was done in subsequent languages was to require that variables had to be declared before they could be used. This eliminated this class of errors.
Basic is an example of this.
Do you have to declare variables in Java? I seem to remember something really dodgy in OOP languages that allows you not to define variables. I thought C was screwed up when they told you to define variables anywhere in the actual code, instead of in the header...
AE<7
"I thought C was screwed up when they told you to define variables anywhere in the actual code, instead of in the header..."
You can do that, but you don't have to. You are always free to impose on yourself a certain amount of code discipline. It's up to you.
You all forget one thing. It is far more likely for a human to make an error then a computerized controled train for one big reason
Although the control software is programed by mortal humans, it is tested and tested and tested for all known outcomes before going into service
Even the most competent train operater can have a bad day. An concidering that there are hundreds of train operators in NYC the likely hood that an marginal train operator having a bad day and cuasing an accident far exceed the computer contriled train
Although the control software is programed by mortal humans, it is tested and tested and tested for all known outcomes before going into service
That's the problem with the testing - it's the unknown outcomes that are the problem. :-)
There is a theoretical problem which applies equally to software and hardware - there is no way to determine whether or not a given machine (or computer software) will perform correctly in every situation. This is known as the "halting problem" in computer science. It is essentially an extension of Goedel's theorem in mathematical logic which states that there is no way to prove that a system of logic is both consistent and complete.
TQuite true. However, it is possible to design, build and test a system which statistically will prove to be highly reliable,and many such systems are in use today. The cost involved in doing so roughly follows the old rule that 20% of the money you spend answers 80% of your worries; the other 80% of your money will be spent answering the last 20% of your worries.
Steve, you got any explanation of the halting problem that you could link to easily? Sounds fascinating.
AEM7
Actually, Steve's explanation wasn't quite right. Here are some links, courtesy of Google.
>>> the likely hood that an marginal train operator having a bad day and cuasing an accident far exceed the computer contriled train <<<
That's y I putt so munch fate im my computer's spill chicken. :-)
Tom
Guys GUYS -
I was NOT commenting on the computer control issues. I was commenting that in the event of a derailment in these areas (broken rail, "blue ice", mechanical malfunction) even at the designated speed, would not the sidewall concrete fall down onto the traffic below?? It sure as hell looks like it.
This was not intended to be a flame show about computer control.
The question is how often we can expect a derailment in those areas. If it's once a year, the design is unacceptable. If it's once every 50 years, the risk of being hit by falling concrete starts to approach the risk of being hit by lightning.
I don't know if people have heard this, but apparently it came out in the investigation that the driver of the derailed airtrain bragged to his sister a few days before the accident "you won't believe how fast this thing goes". Heresy also says that the airtrains tracks goes up and down so much that it may be possible that the concrete blocks slid forwards due to the force of gravity. But all this is heresy, and my engineering knowledge says that (1) is plausible (that the motorman was speeding) but (2) is almost inconceivable.
AEM7
"Heresy also says"
Surely we've gotten past the days of Galileo when if you disagreed with someone on a scientific issue you accused them of heresy!
As for speed, since acceleration around a curve =
(speed squared)/radius, IF the train was going 50 instead of the claimed 25, that would quadruple the sideways forces on the blocks and make a disastrous load shift much more likely.
The driver's boast had nothing to do with the operation near the curve. The vehicle was going between 20-30 mph.
All possible reasons for the crash have to be explored.
>>> The vehicle was going between 20-30 mph. <<<
What is your source? One of the news stories included a witness who worked nearby saying the Airtrain was traveling faster just before the accident than he had ever seen it go down the track before in its six months of trials.
Tom
"What is your source?"
The Port Authority, as quoted by news media. It's also quite reasonable, actually, given that the train had only a sound barrier between it and the street. Sound barriers, even concrete ones, are not designed to keep the trains on the guideway.
"The driver's boast had nothing to do with the operation near the curve. The vehicle was going between 20-30 mph."
I'm not saying that the vehicle was going 20-30 mph, or that it was going much faster. I'm only saying that the shifting load theory has little foundation in basic physics at 25 mph and much more foundation at, say, 50 mph.
OK.
It would be hard to accelerate to 50mph, I think, between the yard and where the crash occured. But I would need real distances and real acceleration figures to check out that theory. Suffices to say that even if linear induction motors accelerate better than adhesion based systems, I would have thought that they would have limited the rate of acceleration for pax comfort reasons. Therefore it is unlikely that the train could have hit a very very high rate of speed between the depot and the accident site. However, we would need the real specs to figure out what the speed could have been, if the driver accelerated all the way from the yard (or point of last known speed) towards the curve.
AEM7
The longest single straight stretch of track on that system would be between the point that the guideway joins the Van Wyck Expressway at the airport, and the turn-off to Jamaica Station. I don't know where deceleration from the design speed (60 mph) would begin, though.
"I'm only saying that the shifting load theory has little foundation in basic physics at 25 mph and much more foundation at, say, 50 mph."
Says who? A load can shift at < 1 mph... if it is improperly secured, something else fails unrelated to lateral forces, and so forth. You might want to recheck your basic physics -- bad things can happen even under the most apparently benign circumstances.
Matt
Says who?
Matt, recheck YOUR physics. I even have a physics degree from a nationally recognized college to prove that I can do physics. And AlM is right.
AEM7
You're pretty funny -- I only wish a degree could make one right!
Before you get your degree, when you're wrong, you're wrong. After you get your degree, when you're wrong, its malpractice.
You've got to step away from Physics 101 here. Stop with the free body diagrams and the assumptions of rigid bodies and frictionless planes. You need not integrate or differentiate to solve this problem. That's the problems with a lot of today's graduates; you're too quick to start number crunching when you haven't fully conceptualized the problem.
A heavy load is situated in a rail car. Say 800 kg to approximate 10 people. When you design the load, you assume the center of gravity of a person is like a yard off the ground. In order to approximate the center of gravity, you locate the 800 kg on a palette, oh, 3 ft off the floor of the car. The car is traveling at 1 mi/h. To raise the palette, it is placed on four steel legs with cross bracing. The contractor makes an error, and the joints fastening the legs of the palette to the actual palette are much weaker than you the engineer had designed. When the train makes the turn, it is the straw the breaks the camel's back. One joint fastening a leg to the palette fails at the palette, and the load now does what?
Now its your turn. You prove to me that a load cannot shift in a train traveling at a speed of 1 mi/h.
I'm not saying this is the scenario that played out. I'm just saying that you have to conceptualize the big picture, and not limit yourself to textbook physics. The real world, and tragedies included, doesn't always follow the homework problem set.
Matt
When the train makes the turn, it is the straw the breaks the camel's back. One joint fastening a leg to the palette fails at the palette, and the load now does what?... Now its your turn. You prove to me that a load cannot shift in a train traveling at a speed of 1 mi/h.
Matt, I appreciate your taking the time to prove a point, in that the load can shift even at less than one mph. I cannot prove that under any set of assumptions that loads will not shift at one mph. For instance, if I were moving an entire building by sliding it on guiderails, then going at more than about 0.1 mph will probably spell disaster for the building, causing all kinds of beams to shift and fracture in the building.
However, under any reasonable set of assumptions, given the information available about the AirTrain accident, AlM's original assertion is correct. AlM's response is qualified with all the previous posts regarding its applicability. The PA article stated that the concrete blocks were placed on the plywood floor. Therefore our calculations are valid and correct, and your scenario is not the actual world scenario.
From my knowledge of rolling stock testing practices, usually loads are not jacked off the floor (or if they were, it is not done using flimsy implementations, due to the danger of shifting loads. Of course, the implementation could be faulty, for instance it is possible that the concrete blocks were in fact anchored to the floor but inadequately so for the 50mph speed.
I dispute your assertion that AlM's physics was wrong, for the assumptions on which we based our calculations. You can challenge those assumptions, but you have not given any credible source as to what made you believe the loads were off the floor. Incidentally, we can also do the calculation in your scenario, and the probability of a shifting load is still higher at 50mph than it is at 25mph (which was AlM's original statement) due to the fact that the bracket is more likely to fail catastrophically if it is subjected to more force. It's not very often I stand by someone else's statement on Subtalk but I think AlM has it right here.
AEM7
Now, now. I wasn't challenging the laws of physics here, nor anyone's use thereof. The acceleration due to gravity will still be 32.2 ft/s^2.
Here is the original quote that I objected to:
"I'm only saying that the shifting load theory has little foundation in basic physics at 25 mph and much more foundation at, say, 50 mph."
I was simply objecting to a logical fault in the above statement.
We can all apply our 6th Edition Tipler Physics text. We can draw our free body diagrams and assume blocks sliding on frictionless (not in this instance) planes.
But the real world doesn't always follow the syllabus for college Physics 101. To be a forensic engineer, which is what we are all trying to do here, you must be able to conceptualize the big picture, and look at all the possible causes.
This is what the NTSB does.
All sorts of hearsay and conjecture have been thrown around on this board. Many of which comes from articles and NTSB assertions. How many posts have been made updating the speed at which the train was traveling? It was 25 then it was 55 then it was 25....
Right now, I think the best option is to keep an open mind and wait for the report.
In the mean time (and this is the basis for my objection) I wouldn't rule out any scenario, regardless of the speed, or where someone says the blocks were. Stranger things have happened to cause an apparent violation of the laws of physics. I gave you one scenario, however implausible. At the end of the day, Physics 101 still applies. We can all sleep easy for that. But the chain of physical events may be quite complicated. As such, I implore all our resident phycists not to rush to judgment,
Matt
I wasn't rushing to judgment. I was just saying a shifting load theory was relatively implausible at 25 mph. I was assuming the load consisted of concrete blocks resting on a linoleum or plywood floor. I didn't ay this explicitly, but it was very clear in my arguments, when I talked about coefficients of friction.
I did not consider the idea of pallets 3' above the floor supported by a steel frame. In that case (not suggested by anything I have read, but admittedly not out of the question), I agree my analysis would not apply.
In any case, now we have heard that the train was going at 55+ mph. At that speed, assuming a moderate radius such as 300', sideways acceleration can easily overwhelm the friction of blocks resting on a plywood floor, which was part of my original point.
I'm not gonna whine at you about "wait for NTSB" ... but the SPEED on the curve alone was a "huh?" here ... given NTSB is STILL on the site and likely to demand some "private tests" it seems as though you MIGHT be on to something here ... dunno the radius of the curve, but 300 feet would indicate a prudent speed of 20 or less. I'm going to guess that the radius was a WHOLE lot more generous than a piddly 300 feet. Even a 1000 foot radius would be hard pressed to handle a 60 mile an hour train, even with a serious cant to the rails ...
Smells funny. Sure hope we don't step in it. :)
"I'm going to guess that the radius was a WHOLE lot more generous than a piddly 300 feet."
Quite possible. I was trying to make the strongest possible case for a shifting load being the cause. My original point was that at 25 mph it was hard to believe that a shifting load could have been the cause, even with assumptions that were favorable to that hypothesis.
Since acceleration is speed squared divided by radius, and any banking of the curve reduces the component of acceleration in a sideways direction, maybe a shifting load wasn't the cause even at 58 mph. If the curve is banked at a 10% slope, and the curve has a radius of 1000', now your sideways acceleration is only .125 g's*, and again it would hard to believe concrete blocks on plywood would shift.
Of course, what this all comes down to is that we need to wait for the NTSB to be sure. But I don't see any reason not to discuss likely causes of the crash based on the information available. We just shouldn't assess blame anyone until we know for sure.
* 58 mph = 85'/sec. 85*85/1000 = 7.225'/sec^2 = .224 g's. Then subtract .1 g's for the banked curve.
Stuff moves ... that's for sure. At least they didn't use BOWLING BALLS for testing. Sorry to make light of it, I have faith in NTSB being able to properly blame everybody. :)
If the curve is banked at a 10% slope, and the curve has a radius of 1000', now your sideways acceleration is only .125 g's*, and again it would hard to believe concrete blocks on plywood would shift.
I don't know about AirTrain engineering parameters, but I know about railroad engineering parameters. Banking, or what we used to call canting, and is called "elevation" in the U.S., is rarely more than 185mm. (Sorry about the metric unit, but I am used to working with British Rail numbers). On any curve, you always have to consider the possibility of train being unexpectedly stopped on the curve, and with heavy freights too high a elevation may cause load-shifting events. Thus track engineering is a balance between achievable speed and stability when stopped. Of course, the degree of elevation permitted depends on the vehicle, but 185mm is a pretty good rule of thumb as a maximum elevation (anything beyond that would typically require a specialist installation, which the AirTrain admittedly was, but even with light vehicles and limited overhang, it would be hard-pressed to push it beyond about 200mm). So, converting that into units that AlM had been using, 200mm is 7.8 inches, and 7.8 inches in 4 ft 8.5 inches (or 56.6 inches) is about 14%.
Wow, AlM was closer to the mark than I had expected.
AEM7
I'm closer than I thought too. I used 10% as a gut feel of how banked/canted/elevated I've observed tracks to be. Have you ever been in a train that stopped in Bridgeport (CT) station? You feel like you're going to slide into the person next to you.
"Says who? A load can shift at < 1 mph"
Says me, based on the laws of physics.
For a load to shift, the acceleration (minus a correction for a banked turn that reduces the effective acceleration) has to exceed the coefficient of friction times gravity. If you have a tanker truck full of water, there is essentially no friction, and load shifts will happen easily. If you have concrete blocks on a linoleum or tile floor, you have considerable friction (probably a coefficient of friction of 0.3 or 0.4).
As I pointed out elsewhere, acceleration around a curve is speed squared divided by radius of the curve. If the speed was 25 mph it is very hard to conjure up an acceleration of 0.3 g's or more. If the speed was 50 mph, it's easy.
The driver's comments are not relevant. Re-read the news articles. The PA already established that the train was operating at not more than 30 mph.
The PA already established that the train was operating at not more than 30 mph.
I prefer to wait for the NTSB report before making assumptions regarding the train's speed at the time of the derailment. The PA does not have that much investigative experience in determining such things after the fact - which in this case may be simply repeating the manufacturer's specification.
"The PA does not have that much investigative experience in determining such things after the fact - which in this case may be simply repeating the manufacturer's specification. "
You have not demonstrated sufficient qualifications or sufficient knowledge of AirTrain's operations or the PA's experience in order to come to that conclusion.
Having said that, of course the NTSB will be the ultimate arbiter. However, the PA must begin making decisions and continuing testing in order to get the train into service. Their own investigation must be thorough, but one derailment does not justify holding everything up until the NTSB is completely done (just as the airlines do not suspend all activity until a final crash report comes out).
Having said that, of course the NTSB will be the ultimate arbiter.
What do you people think of the Atlantic Monthly Magazine? There was an article in there that criticized the NTSB's investigation of the ValuJet crash in the Everglades in Florida. Then there are some British journalists (notably some Nick character, I forget his full name, who wrote the "Crash that stopped Britain") who were very critical of NTSB. Now, I am not saying I agree with these people, but I am just asking if the Subtalkue community are familiar with these alternative perspectives, and whether the Subtalkue community thinks the views expressed by these people are credible.
The ValuJet article is here (long).
I happen to have the utmost respect for NTSB, and although I think that there are very occasionally issues with some of their investigations and the way the interpret the evidence to attribute responsibility and make recommendations, I do believe their technical basis is sound. I'd be interested to hear (esp. from RonInBayside) what his basis of saying that the NTSB would be the ultimate arbiter. In most accidents, I agree with NTSB's reports and attribution of blame, but in some cases there is even internal dissent within the NTSB and in other cases I disagree with the NTSB findings. Even if agencies choose to act on NTSB recommendations, it is important to realize that there are alternative fault-attribution schemes possible.
AEM7
"There was an article in there that criticized the NTSB's investigation of the ValuJet crash in the Everglades in Florida."
Which, ironically, was the unfortunate end in a chain of events that involved the shifting of an improperly secured load.
Matt
Atlantic Monthly has a point of view. It is intended to be a provocative journal, like The New Yorker, although with varying political sensibilities...
Makes interesting reading.
Ultimately, Amtrak (and the airlines) must be able to reasonably trust somebody...
There was an article in there that criticized the NTSB's investigation of the ValuJet crash in the Everglades in Florida.
I failed to detect any critcism of the NTSB's investigation or findings in the article. There was much criticism with the FAA, which is an entirely different organization. There was also the proposition that the "system" made accidents unavoidable. But there was not criticism for the NTSB for failing to find the cause of the crash.
I would echo the point that the article does not criticze the NTSB. It points out the difficulty of preventing management errors that result in bad procedures that occasionally result in terrible accidents. It also portrays the then chairman of the FAA as a total jerk.
The NTSB doesn't set policy; it only investigates. No one disputes that their investigation led to the correct factual conclusions.
No one disputes that their investigation led to the correct factual conclusions.
When I last read the article, the article was quite adament about the NTSB being a bureaucratic and technical organization and therefore failed to recognize the larger issues behind the immediate technical facts.
I might be wrong. But that's what I remember.
AEM7
"When I last read the article, the article was quite adament about the NTSB being a bureaucratic and technical organization and therefore failed to recognize the larger issues behind the immediate technical facts."
But the article also recognizes that it's not their job to address the larger issues behind the technical facts. That's policy, which belongs to the FAA (or the FRA, if we're talking rail), not the NTSB.
What we should expect out of the NTSB is an impartial determination as to whether this was due to a defective component, a bad design, operator error, bad instructions to the operator, or some combination of these. The NTSB won't make proposals for management changes to prevent such an error from happening again.
But the article also recognizes that it's not their job to address the larger issues behind the technical facts. That's policy, which belongs to the FAA (or the FRA, if we're talking rail), not the NTSB.
I disagree. If you read the NTSB report on the WMATA crash at Shady Grove back in 1996 (I think), available here, the report talks at length about the institutional culture then in existence at WMATA (i.e. "computer cannot make a mistake" etc). We have discussed that accident extensively on this board some time previously, and various people made various comments about the dispatcher that made the decision to override the operator. In any case, extensive management shake-up at WMATA occured as a result.
I would argue that the NTSB need to provide a technical account of "what happened", but in order to make meaningful recommendations it must look at the wider issues. The NTSB did very well in examining the wider issues in the Shady Grove report. I only skimmed the NTSB ValuJet report so I don't know if what The Atlantic alleges is correct, but I still felt that even in the ValuJet report the NTSB does attempt to address the instituional organization issues, with ValuJet subcontracting everything to SabreTech and the communication lines and accountability structure was problematic. I happen to disagree with The Atlantic on this one, because I believe NTSB did an adequate job of investgating the institutional issues behind the ValuJet crash. However, NTSB may not always recognize the larger institutional issues, thus they may not always have the "last word" on any given accident.
AEM7
The conclusions always begin from the small and specific: The fire started due to sparking inside a gas tank, or the accident occurred due to brake failure. Then comes the next "why" and your horizon expands...
Well, I did say this was just hearsy, my data source being someone who lives in NYC and keeps track of these things in the press. I don't personally keep track of what the press are saying, or whether it is relevant.
The scale of derailment suggests a low-speed derailment, yes (the train remained on the viaduct, for goodness sake). But maybe the driver thought 30mph was fast, and therefore boasted about it. Perhaps the PA is trying to cover up the fact that the driver was going faster than he should be and the system allowed him to do so. There are many alternative explanations/scenarios, all of which are plausible. There is every reason for a PA cover up, just like there was a cover-up after the MBTA heart attack case this summer.
AEM7
Rather than fearing for us all, calm down and realize such an accident can occur at many places on the NYC Subway.
All we need is slow speed limits or maybe some sort of protection.
What do you think the TA will do to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the subways in New York? I know it's still two years away, but I'm curious.
Here's what I think:
- "100 Year B-Day" Metrocards
- Announce that passengers can stay on the 6 train to see the abandoned City Hall station
- Huge PR campaign
- Huge promotion of the museum
Not much else can be done
Won't they have some kind of special event actually on the IRT -- perhaps at the nearest weekend rather than the the actual day? (Of course, if the actual date happens to fall on a weekend that would be a bonus.)
Well, they can get the Low V set up to specs again for temporary in-service use, the same way they did for the 75th anniversary (59th St. to Bklyn Bridge on the 6 would be my perferred route, instead of putting them on the GC-TS shuttle)
Well the Shuttle was on the original route of the subway in 1904,
59th & Lexington was not. IMO :| )
~Sparky
The train could run along Broadway between 42nd and 137th, although doing so without gumming up regular operations would be a challenge. Except for 42nd itself, that's all along the original IRT route.
It might be more appropriate to run a special out of City Hall up to Grand Central (even if GC is not original), as that is how the original ceremony started. BTW, was the original run in 1904 (the ceremonial first train) run on the express track or the local track?
The inaugural special on Day One ran express from City Hall to 145th St., then ran local on the return trip. Curiously, many of the dignitaries got off at stations closest to their homes on the return trip instead of going back to City Hall.
The Lex local has the center track between 59th and 68th Sts. the train could turn around at, and the route between 42nd and Brooklyn Bridge is the original route, and five times the length of the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle, BTW. Putting it on the No. 6 train, even for short run, non-rush hour only trips, would allow far more people to experience the Low Vs than would on the here-there-here-there-here-there-here-there route the shuttle takes.
Actually, more people would experience it on the shuttle, though for a shorter distance. How many 6 trains run at any given time? Lots. How many shuttle trains run at any given time? Between one and three.
It would be interesting to see the usage numbers for the 6 between B'klyn Bridge and 59 compaired to the shuttle. IMHO, the 6 would still come out on top, due to its transfer points at B'klyn Bridge, Canal, Bleeker (downtown), 14th, 42nd and 59th, though keepnig the Low Vs operating times outside of the rush hour crush loads would probably even out the usage numbers between it and the shuttle.
it could not run in normal service on the lexington lines or the 1/9 due to gapfillers
It was used in normal service on the No. 6 for a special exhibition of the cars in the 1970s, on the short route between B'klyn Bridge and 59th St., and didn't need to use the gap fillers. Remember, it was only a five-car train of Low Vs, so it only needed to use the rear half of the Union Square downtown platform, which is straight. The curved section of the downtown platform is at the front of the train.
South Ferry is a different story -- it would have to use the gap fillers there and they wouldn't match up.
What is the top speed of those Lo-V's?
Frank D-
I'm not sure what their top speed would be right now, but if the Low Vs motors are fully operational, they would have no problem running at current normal speeds along any IRT line (in part because speed restrictions in certain areas are greater now than they were 50-75 years ago).
City Hall lop is revenue track
The newsletter from the NYC Transit Museum that came a few weeks ago said that the Museum would be "heavily involved" in the 100th celebration, but no details were given. This is probably a good time to write to the Museum Director with thoughts.
I was hoping they would have restored the City Hall station for the festivities, but they had better start soon if they had any idea to do that - so unfortunately I guess they won't be doing that.
My guess is that it will remain shut.
Worth might be a good candidate to restore
If they're smart, they'll steal every idea they can from the Paris Metro. I was on their Cent Ans de Metro mailing list, and they'd invite people on activities when their birthday fell on the opening day of a line; they'd have receptions in stations, group rides, and the best web sites (with old station photos) I've ever seen.
>>>If they're smart,....<<<
Remember now, we are talking about the NY Transit authority. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
In the graphic design capital of the UNIVERSE? We have it ALL OVER those guys for imagination (and yes, I know public unfunding trumps creativity every time). Off topic -- Andee -- tell me a cool place to buy glasses!!! 88-) (extra pair on my forehead).
I don't really know for sure, but if the official centennial logo is any indication, it may be one big PR campaign and nothing else. The logo consists of a stylized skyline and subway car that doesn't even look like NYC rolling stock. there even isn't a kiosk in the logo.
The only way to celebrate a subway centennial in The Big Apple is to have the old cars restored and running. I feel it's not going to happen. The clock is ticking, it takes time and money to get those R1-9's road worthy again. The B-Types, although worked on by volunteers, still need tons of work. Once again the clock is ticking. The Low-V's just need some repair work and a real paint job. Not gray and black, but olive green and black. We got two years to go.
You can't celebrate the centennial without the old cars. A PR campaign alone won't cut it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a question about a car at Seashore. The URL below, from the ABPR photo archive, shows an unidentified streetcar under a tarp at Seashore. Does anyone know what car this is? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?september02/09-30-02/DSCN1154-UnknownSTM7-6-02.jpg
Looks like a dreary drizzly day for the Rockaway trip. I will be busy with various stuff tomorrow and will not be able to go, as well the weather looks to be kinda unpleasant.
I hope whoever goes has fun, and I may try to do the 9am Sunday thing instead.
Peggy has asked me to post this last reminder:
Sunday's trip is mainly indoors. We will be outside walking from South Ferry to Whitehall, City Hall BMT to Park Place, lunch in Brooklyn if we do lunch and the New Lots Line.
Meet at Penn Station in front of McDonalds (on the lower level- same level as the subway exit to Penn Station-7th Ave. end.)at 9am. We will leave at 9:15am
yes sounds good. I'll be taking the 7:01am Oyster Bay train to Penn.
It'll be a good excuse to get out of Sea Cliff, Sunday is the day of the loud and crazy minimart (lots of drunks!).
I never been out to New Lots before so it'll be interesting.
I haven't been out to New Lots in over 10 years. I'm looking forward to it.
I was there three weeks ago (or, rather, to the New Lots line, only as far as Junius). I'm still looking forward to it.
Remnants of Powerfull Lili has arrived!
Being a C/R I have noticed a few things about The R 46'and 32's stored in Jamacia
1)Air conditioning in the cabs of R 46's BLOW!!!! Its Hot 90% of time.
2)Door Motors on the 46 are way to slow for busiest coridor in Queeens.Where they always this slow or were the "Tweaked"?
3)R 32's seem to always have slow door or two ,plus A/C not as cold as the ones From C/I.
Reason I ask is today I had a 32 from the N line (yes I keep all car #'s of the trains I work)and Get this Doors had no Indication Probs and both sides were damm rite cold.So are the RCI's in the yard asked to tweak a few things or Is C I yard just plain out better?
1. The cabs do not have their own air conditioning systems. If it's hot in the cab, then one of the two air conditioners is not on (could be that the thermostat says the car isn't hot enough to turn on the AC, could be that the AC's broken) -- or the occupant simply wants it colder than the AC can make it.
2. The R-46 doors, in my observations, have been slow since the cars came back from GOH. It's adjustable but seems not to have been done.
3. Could be a problem with individual cars.
David
Door opening = 1.5 seconds on all NYCT cars (except possibly new tech cars)
Door closing = 2.5 seconds on all NYCT cars (except possibly new tech cars)
HVAC doen not operate if the ambient temp is 71 degrees or below on either Jamaica or Coney Island cars. Jamaica cars spend more time under ground so cars are warmer & filters are dirtier. May be coincidence that he works Jamaica cars on days where HVAC is not being called for. It may also be a pre-conceived notion. Without actual temp. readings, I'd be skeptical of any such comparrisons.
The door opening and closing rates are as quoted by TD, but within a tolerance range. Is it possible that the R-46s are all set for the slower end of the range, or that enough of them are set for the slower end of the range to be noticeable?
David
I've noticed that R-44s are definitely slower than the R-46.
No, I think someone is jacking up the AC vents in hose cars. It has been pretty bad the two summers I've been here. It seems the grilling that allows you to adjust how much cool air comes in is torn off and something stuffed in the duct. Doesn't make sens to me, why not just use the feature it came with instead of destroying it.
I always wish I knew who was doing this.
All pre R142 DCUs have a batch of adjustments to control door speed.
If you do truly feel that door speed is affecting RTO, write it up at your risk. Different trainsets do have different mechanical linkages...timing is NOT identical. TD is correct about timing and RTO accounts for the timing in train schedules....when I travel long distances like going to my yard, I time door operation and dwell time and go crazy because I'm going to be late at my yard. I refuse to comment about my fellow CIs...what they do is under supervision. My Dept. Supt. makes sure that our Redbirds have fully operational HVAC...he is an 'escapee' of the TDs plantation! Other shops may let things go back into RTO but 239/180 MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
I've noticed warm/humid R32s on the "E" and "F" - Jamaica Yard cars.Makes no difference if Phase I or Phase II.
Coldest R32 seem to be Phase I out of Pitkin-Yard, found mostly on the "C" and lately on the "A" too. Coldest this summer: 3434-3435, encountered Sept.14 on the "A".
wayne
My newspaper this morning reviews a book written by a London Underground driver, Bob Griffiths, a 35-year veteran of the Central Line. It's called Mind the Doors, and is published by Silver Link Publishing at 14.99 pounds. I doubt it will be published in the USA, but you might be able to get copies through Amazon.
"It's called Mind the Doors, and is published by Silver Link Publishing at 14.99 pounds."
Is that the weight or the cost of the book.
Michael
You're joking right? Har har.
14.99 Pounds? That's the weight of a Redbird composite brakeshoe!!!
Dis ain't Korvettes, Alexanders or TSS. Twenty five buckskys plus postage to read about fruitloops 'underground?' Entrance to our 'zoo' remains $ 1.50 and you can travel forever to meet New York Cities finest representatives of social culture until you exit. CI Peter
Anybody know the reason for power off at 125th Street on the ABCD on Thursday at around 1230? Lasted for about 45 minutes.
Peace,
ANDEE
A robbery suspect hid in the tunnel between 103 & 110. They caught him.
You mean to tell me that crims actually BELIEVE they disappear in tunnels? Nevermind. :)
Many of my buddies tell me that catching felons is usually nice and easy, because the perps are SO stupid. Usually. This was obviously an easy one.
I guess there wasn't a bed handy to hide under.
Yesterday at around 11:15, I thought I saw a shape of a (6) going northbound to 239 Street yard, why would a (6) be running on the 2/5 line?
Possible reroute due to problem on the 6
Oh, the train was OOS as well as it skipped Pelham Parkway
6 can look hella lot like a 5
when in blurry LCD red.
Dept. Supt. who knows I'm crazzy tech tekky pulled me off Redbird inspection to shove my dirty nose undercar to note differences between Kawasaki and Bombardier....months before loose coupler sleeves and popping shear bolts. Trainsets share common hardware and common problems...Kawasaki may do a better job of hiding problems but their engineering staff has an excellent track record of responding to problems on the shop floor and the R142A MDBF speaks volumes.
They sometimes hold an OOS but we and the vendors do not touch them...they must receive service from the Emperors Ligation...Mitsubishi type 97 torpedoes sunk docked capital Naval ships in Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Japon missed a few..my parents generation has not forgotten. CI Peter
How about this for the subway's 100th birthday?
Let NYCT temporarily restore the original 1904 route and use Low-V cars to carry rail fans from City Hall to 145th Street, just like the first train did on October 27, 1904.
I can see two problems with this:
1) Northbound trains from City Hall would have to use the southbound local track to access the 1904 Grand Central station, which could be dangerous.
2) There is no current single track connecting the two sides of the "H". Transit would have to build a small stretch of track connecting Track 1 at Times Square to the Broadway IRT line. There is one track at Times Square that connects to the Broadway line, but it doesn't connect to the track coming in from Grand Central.
These are logistical and potentially expensive problems. But I would sure love to ride such a trip.
How about this as a permanent change? Bring some of the west side IRT trains across 42nd to pick up the load on the lower Lexington Ave. route.
You mean run east and west side IRT trains on both lines, some staying on the east side and some running to the west side using the 1904 stations? I like that idea, except I don't know that the tracks have enough capacity to handle all of those lines.
The trains crossing to the west side would turn south at Times Square (except the shuttle dead ends in a northward turn, darn it) and then follow the 123 line. Is 123 now overloaded? p.s. Where's the easiest place to find line and station capacity and traffic?
Dunno. That's over my head.
Nice dream, but let's get real here.
To resurrect the 1904 route required major (multi-millions of $)switch and signal work at Times Square and Grand Central. For what? Trains would have to cross other active tracks to make the necessary moves. Would slow down service big time. It just ain't gonna happen. Let's stay in the realm of reality.
But what would be nice would be a Low-V special starting at the Times Square shuttle $4 track and then going uptown on the West Side IRT to 145th or even to 242. Would have to be on a weekend when one shuttle track is not used anyway.
"Let's stay in the realm of reality."
That spoils all the fun of posting here.
Just a reminder that the 'depot museum' will be open to the public on October 19 and 20 with admission at £6.65
further details at ltmuseum.co.uk
On display will be the latest addition a preserved! 1983 driving motor car ex Jubilee line (pre extension!).
The depot is situated at the Acton Town end of Ealing Common District Line depot just outside the main entrance to ACTON TOWN (District & Piccadilly) station.
Turn right-
Cross the road (Gunnersbury Lane) then take the first left turn over the bridge.
.
Mind the doors
Rob
1983 driving motor car
LUL scrapping stock after 20 years? What's wrong with them? Too much money? Give us some, we need it here at the T.
AEM7
the trouble with the'83 Jubilee line tube stock....was that it was built with single leaf doors...too much platform dwell time reduces trains per hour.New 1996 stock was introduced when the line was extended Green Park-Stratford for the millenium.
However,London Underground decided that:
batch one units (3cars)
3601-3630 should be scrapped (some trailer cars kept)
batch two units (3cars)
3631-3663 be stored and some cut.
.
Some plans to run them on the Piccadilly Line to increase number of tph never came to anything so about 20 x 3 car units are dotted around the system laid up in sidings!.
.
Rob
There was more wrong with the 1983 stock than just the doors. Overall, it was very poorly constructed and didn't have good equipment.
-Robert King
Hold on a minute...
apart from having single leaf passenger doors these units were great, fast accelerating,bright interiors and one of Metro Cammells finest productions,apart from the metrobus that is!
Rob.
1st run in public use 1st May 1984,
I thought that the mustard-colored melamine interior was rather tacky.
Kind of like the peg-board ceiling in the 1960 stock.
wayne
Nothing's wrong with London Underground, everything's wrong with the 1983 stock. I don't think many of those trains lasted 15 years in service. That fact should speak for itself.
-Robert King
I toured the Acton Town Depot Museum last Nov.01.
Worth every £, I might add.
After the Museum visit, stand on the bridge near the station and watch the trainsets move in and out on the District & Piccadilly lines, which diverge at this point. Most interesting!
Coming over this year ?
Simon
Swindon UK
They actually SAVED one of the 1983 Tube Stock! Heavens!
I wonder if it still has the fake D78 stock interior and moquette.
wayne
Chicago's Northwest Corridor proposals are far from settled, as this
article in the northwest suburban Daily Herald indicates.
My comment:
Another damned piece of local politics, with people fighting over alignments. At least it's YIMBY rather than NIMBY. Why don't they just do both alternatives, making a branch at O'Hare? If the ridership demand isn't enough to justify that, well... too bad, what about CTA putting the line out to bid, and the municipality that makes most voluntary contributions to CTA gets the line?
Actually, knowing Chicagoland politics, that's probably how the decision would eventually be made... and I'd say that's a damn good way to make a decision! At least the thing would get built once the politics is over.
AEM7
Finally.....
You can see here for details.
Chaohwa
Interesting!
I was on trainset #11 yesterday (2167) and today (2190). It stayed on (or close) to the track all the way, and both trips were on-time. 2167 yesterday was about 75% full (BOS-NYP), and 2190 today (NYP-BOS) about 50% full. I rode in the quiet car both trips, and had the same conductor. He was great! When he lifted each person's ticket, he said (quietly), "This is the quiet car. Your cell phone must be off. No voicemail, no vibrating mode. Completely powered off. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?" I assume this is because the QC is very popular, and some conductors are lax about enforcement, prompting compaints.
When he lifted each person's ticket, he said (quietly), "This is the quiet car. Your cell phone must be off. No voicemail, no vibrating mode. Completely powered off. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?"
How I wish we had this on the LIRR!!!!
This conductor meant business! He also announced over the PA at the beginning of the trip, "There is no smoking anywhere on this train. That inlcudes the coaches, restrooms, and vestibules between cars. Smoking will be grounds for your removal from the train."
I wonder if he meant enroute? That would be interesting at 150 mph.
I wonder if he meant enroute? That would be interesting at 150 mph.
It'd certainly be messy.
Glad to hear it. I once got a sold out train where no matter how many times the conductor announced it, people did it anyway, including the guy sitting next to me. This was train 2172 in April.
On R62(A) and redbirds there is/was a color stripe under the number denoting yard the car is assigned to. Now that the R142(A) is assigned to other lines will the color stripes return or has that gone the way of the redbirds
Well most of the subtalkers on this board are adults, and I know each of you have your best railfanning memory on the subways. My best memory was riding the D train to Coney Island for the first time when I was 4 years old. It was amazing seeing different parts of the city especially coney island. I remember seeing the R-30's for the first time ever, and see the dirty R-40S. So whats your best memory of the subways?
For me it was my first ride on the Metro----In those days only the Red Line operated from Rhode Island Ave to Dupont Circle and the Blue from Nat'l Airport to Stadium-Armory. When you come out of the Smithsonian station onto the mall for the first time and you're right in the middle between the Capitol and the Washington Monument----quite breath-taking. Also, how we learned very quickly that the trains only have posted the final destination of the train-----We kept waiting on the platform at R.I. Ave for a train marked Metro Center, yet they were all labeled Dupont Circle :( It didn't take long for us to realize the error of our ways;). That was when I realized my love of subways and other transit related things.
So many: My first trip on the NX to Brighton and my first trip on the Broad Street Subway when they had 1928 B-1 cars.
Also my last trip on a Low V on the Bronx Third Ave. El after going to the zoo ranks high.
I have many, but these two stand out:
I used to love to take the train out to Rockaway. I remember the first time my friend and I rode the subway "by ourselves" - I guess in the early '80's. We started on the M and took that to Myrtle-Broadway to get the J to Eastern Pkwy. I remember being fascinated looking into all the abandoned and burnt out buildings between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway. Then the long escalator ride down to the A to Broad Channel. I remember wondering where the abandoned tracks went (where the Liberty El meets the Rockaway Branch). At Broad Channel we waited for the "H" train to Seaside. (We went to Beach 105th-Seaside because that is where my father said he used to get off when the LIRR went there, so when he gave us directions on how to go to Rockaway, that's where we got off - and did that for the many more trips to Rockaway throughout my teens). At Broad Channel, I remember seeing a green "H" R10 for the first time, and being excited because I never seen them before! (I actually thought it was an R16 painted up - as that is what I was used to on the M and L - what did I know back then?). I realized they were different because the little fans were spinning, and I never saw that before) There was nothing better than an R10 speeding on the Rockaway branch with all the windows and doors open, and fans spinning. On the way home, we got a graffitied R10 C train (signed for Bedford Park Blvd - I remember that because I thought it was such a cool sounding name) back to ENY. The subway ride was almost as much fun as the beach itself. I would love to go back to that day, just for a few hours.
My second favorite memory was when I was a bit older (late teens-early 20's), when me and the same friend got a M R40 slant at Essex one night, and we rode between cars on the slant end across the bridge and along the Broadway el (sure, stupid to ride between cars, but I was younger back then). I just remember thinking it was so cool because there was so much "outdoor space" there - probably the closest thing you can get to a gate car with the current equipment.
Finally, and honorable mention. I really miss the old LIRR diesel cars. There was nothing greater than the "reverse railfan window" (well no window or door) on the back of a Montauk Express via the mainline when riding in the last vestibule of the last car - no engine there on the back (two GP38-2's on the front) - just you and the open air. Brings a tear to the eye - oh wait a minute, that's a piece of brake dust that just flew into the eye.....
My best subway ride is every time I step on one. But the one that provokes the most memory has to be sometime in August after the Union Square wreck (Which was also one the most dramatic experience for me), when I rode a 4 train from 125 street to Utica Avenue. It was nice to know the train driver wasn't drunk. It was also a nice smooth ride. BTW Everytime I rode the 4 either I stood up for the "roller coaster ride"(It was fun when I was 5 and its fun when I'm 16) or I fell asleep due to the rocking of the train.
My best subway memory came on my very first ride on the Piccadilly Line.
It was my very first visit to London back in 1999 and I had just gotten off the "red-eye" from NYC into Heathrow. I had been wanting to go to London for over 25 years before this visit. Even before I left NYC, I knew that I was taking the Tube into Central London.
About 9 am, I got on the Tube which used the refurbished 1973 stock for the ride into Central London. I absolutely loved the sound of the bull & pinion gears (right?) and the bouncy ride plus the view of the London suburbs with those distinctive British style homes, not to mention the louder that usual sound of the wheels going over the tracks due to the short height of the train.
To top it all off, the fun "express" run from Acton Town to Hammersmith was the icing on the cake.
I'll never forget that ride. The Tube is only one of the reasons why I absolutely adore London.
My favorite subway ride is when I first rode the subway at age two from Ave U on the Brighton Line( caught an R44 D train) to the Bronx Zoo( caught an R17 going and an R15 returning). I became facinated with trains from that day on.
My last memorable ride was one night, I ran away from home and rode the entire subway system that night. All for $1. That was the second week that the Archer Ave Subway was opened. I got a @$^# whooping the following day by Pops but it was worth it. That night, I rode GOH R42's for the first time. When my trek started, it was at Sheepshead Bay on a Q train of unrebuilt R42's with the blue side doors. Sadly to say, to this day, I still never made it to 95 Street yet on the R line. Even saw a train of R16's on the L. What a ride. Kids, do not attempt this ride under any circumstances. Subways late at night are very dangerous. I was lucky that night.
Actually, tha reminds me of a late night ride that really brings back great memories. It was New Year's Eve 1991. It was the first (and only) time I did the Times Square "ball dropping". Afterwards, we decided to go out to Coney Island. At the time I was still trying to finish my "riding every line in the system". Until that point I hadn't ridden the Sea Beach yet, so we took that. Somewhere around Union Ave some guy in our car let loose a huge snake. I hate snakes, so we decided to switch cars. It was an R68, so we had to run out at the next station and run to the next car. We did that, and as soon as we were in the next car, and the doors closed we realized that someone had puked (the joys of New Years Eve) all over the car. It smelled so bad and the mirrored interior of the R68's didn't help. We were stuck in there until the next station.
Well the rest of the trip went fine, and it was great to go down to Coney Island early that morning in New Years Day 1992.
AT the time it seemed really gross, and I still can't ride an R68 without thinking of that night, but I look back at that night once in a while and still laugh about that N train trip.
I remember one Sunday morning I was bored stiff so I decided to ride the J train all the way to Oueens Blvd. I got off the #2 at Fulton and found my way to the platform. While standing near the mouth of the tunnel, I heard this very loud rumbling. When I turned my head, it was the J train. I was like Oh my God THIS IS THE J TRAIN??? It's a freaking mess!! So I got on and right away I regretted it cause it seemed like every single wheel had a flat spot! The ride smoothed out once the train picked up speed but the noise was freaking unbearable! Going over the WB was painful. I was afraid the bridge was gonna shake itself apart! I stayed on the train as far as Eastern Parkway. We had to transfer for another train to Qns Blvd (gee, I wonder why) but I headed back to Fulton Street. I couldn't stand the noise any longer.
Now I actually regret not going all the way to the last stop. Years later when I moved to Richmond Hill, the J was a much better train to ride, but I was saddened to hear that Metro Av and Qns Blvd were closed so the J changed ends at 121st. That worked out great cause my new home was only a block away.
Riding the r-110 units in service on
the A (and!) 2 lines in 1993-94.
Riding the 2150 VCP to South Ferry 9/14/02
Anytime the r22's or r26/28/29 were on the 1
(talkin' back in the 1980's folks!!)
Wow - I have so many of them. At NYCT(A) the memories are quite old since many of the fun rides are no longer fun. One of my best was whenj the R-62's were newly delivered to the #4 line. One day I was on a S/B #4 in Manhattan and the T/O was having a great time (and so was I), but on the 86th to 59th Street sprint he moving ful speed and unfortunately he applied the brakes a bit late and we overshot the platform. Boy - those were the days.
Now I enjoy fast rides on WMATA trains almost daily, but I sure miss those NYCTA express runs like most of Lexington, 6th Ave, 7th Ave, 4th Ave Brooklyn and even 8th Ave.
Wayne
I remember two rides that will remain among my fondest memories until the good Lord calls me home. Number one was the BMT #1 Brighton Express on its way to Ebbets Field via Prospect Park station. The thrill was indescribable. It usually meant a great day at the ballpark and most often a Brooklyn Dodgers victory. The other was any time I rode the Triplex BMT#4 Sea Beach to Coney Island or to my two grandparents' house. It made me a Sea Beach fanatic that I am to this day.
My favorits:
1) The first time my dad took me for a ride on the Wooden Q-cars of the Myrtle Avenue El
2) Many times as a young boy, standing at the front of a Lo-V, as it exited the portal before 161st Street-Yankee Stadium
3. Taking my high school girlfriend on The Brighton Express to Coney Island on an incredibly hot summer day, on a brand-new, ice-cold R-42.
a couplr of special 'speed runs'
A CERA fantrip on CTA with a string of the "not-rodded 6000's. We waited on a Sunday until our revenue follower was on our tail, thenthe CTA GM (and member #3 IIRC) let 'er rip. Nonstop from 58th on the now Green Line through the State St tunnel and up to Fullerton.
an ERA trip on BART a specua train left Civic Ctr. for the Hayward Sgops. We got to open a cab window and experience the wind which is never possible on regular revenue service.
The inaugural trip of Line IV of the Barcelona Metro (new stations at Joanic, Verdaguer, Girona, Passeig de Gràcia [called Gran Via then], rehabbed stations from the former Line III branch at Urquinaona and Jaume I, plus the opportunity to stay on the train to the abandoned station at Corréos) in 1973 where the train reversed direction to return.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember riding the composites on the 3rd AveEl &
.The D types & Standards out to Coney Is..in the 50's....The R9's up & down the Concourse...Loved the R10's on the A all in the 60's & 70's. But the LoV's on the Jerome/Lex...was my Fav. I did get to ride the Polo-Ground shuttle..just 2 LoV cars. Damn I'm getting old.....
1963...school class got special trip to new Worlds Fair in Flushing....we had opened windows and unfurlled flags...trip was memorialized in film.....no camcorder had yet been invented. CI Peter
Tops in my book would be riding on the R-1/9s minus headlights on the lead motor on a CPW express dash.
A close second is a ride on the R-10s on the same stretch.
I have many, but I'll talk about my first ride on MARTA. I had a short layover in Atlanta on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando. I got bumped from my connecting flight, so I had six hours to squander. I rode into downtown on MARTA, and I loved the system, especially Peachtree Center station. All my memories were colored, however, by the fact that I'd gotten a $500 travel voucher from the airline for being bumped. Given that, the system could have been the worst in the world and I'd still have loved it. :)
Mark
All I remember is the name.
I think something like 'Subway Future' All I know is it had the year 2040. I hope the guy who owns the site will reply. I know he posts here.
LOL that's not the first time this has happened. Isn't this Elias's site? It's definitely visionary, and very railfan oriented, although it's not very well tied to real-world cost constraints.
AEM7
It is Elias.
Yes, it is Elias!!! Thank you, but what I really meant to ask was what is the URL? I need to know. Thanks.
It's a simple one. Did Salaam say he had no trouble on the Babylon branch while filming? I didn't read every one of his posts so I am not 100% sure but I believe that's what he said. Well, today, I heard from a conductor on the LIRR that another conductor asked him to stop filming out of the window (for an unspecified reason). When he refused to comply - he was put off the train at Rockville Center. Fess up Salaam. What really happened on the Babylon branch?
It could've been another person filming, one who was somehow more conspicuous than Salaam (is that possible??).
Unca Steve: I truly feel Sallam Allahs intents overcome his lack of GOs...the guy just wants to take pics without harm to others.
Next CI pick is wracking your protogee BeH. Beeg bailout expected in next pick....I'll do another tour on the little trains but be prepared as I will catch up with you when McK explains how we got into the yard (Webster?) CI Peter
".....feel Sallam Allahs intents overcome his lack of GOs...the guy just wants to take pics without harm to others."
Same can be said of a peeping tom.
I think that'd apply only if the cab is being actively blessed. :)
I take it "flying United" is against the rules now too. Heh.
Smith-9 St is one of the most DEPRESSING stations I have ever seen in my life. The concrete platforms are uneven, the metal or aluminum "ceilings" are eroding [if you are on the MB platform toward the rear there's visual proof]. If its supposed to get a makeover, it is about time. I see that its tarped outside & inside the middle tracks and they're painting the trestles (the trapezoid shaped metal or steel thing) between 4 Av & Smith St. If its a long term project, the station walls should get tiled similar to Parkside Av, Beverley & Cortelyou Roads on the Brighton line.
The rails need to be replaced because its so rusted that if trains ran on it as a regular service it would crack and break into pieces
;-)
I would like your opinions on what they should do with this station if it went through a major renovation.
I do like the idea of a tiled station. But since it is a former IND station, it should be tiled into the stripe, or similar to that effect like the underground stations.
A tiled EL?? They should make it BMT style even though that section is IND. (ex: Ditmas Av/Culver and 18 Av/West End. I don't there are any tiled EL stations...not 100% sure...Are there?
Smith-9th (and 4th Ave.-9th, for that matter) have always had a "function over form" look that became prevalent in most of everything New York built as part of its Depression-era public works projects. Not pretty and/or cookie cutter in design (all of Bob Moses' WPA-era park buildings looked the same), but it did what it was supposed to do at a time when ornamental luxuries were not something that could be justified.
Other than preserving the bare-bones look of Smith-9th for historical purposes, I don't see why they can't spruce up the station a little during rehab, since the station itself would have probably had a lot more in terms of styline had the Depression not hit or had the IND ben built 5-10 years earlier (of course, with the view of Lower Manhattan from Smith-9th, the look of the station is almost destined to be secondary...).
If you think the Smith-9th St. stop is deplorable, you should take a look at the 3 line from Sutter-Rutland to New Lots. The whole el is pitted with rust, paint peeling and non-existent, fare control areas have extensive wood rot. It's a disgrace!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
When I talked about putting tile on Smith St in a previous post, I aint really think of the design as if it would be IND style or BMT style. as subtalker IND said, he would tile the wall IND style. It would be in the Carroll/Bergen color scheme, which is green. The station is crying for help:layers of paint peeling, eroding metal or aluminum, poor lighting, uneven platforms its a shame.
Now about infrastructure, if you thought the 3 was bad, how about the A and the shuttle after Rockaway Blvd towards the Rockaways. It has rust on the concrete structure, the stations are dark & its just dillapidated(not sure if I spelled it right). The stations between N.Conduit Av & Broad Channel are just dull.
I can't believe the MTA uses aluminum sheets as "walls" on the els. I hope the els get something similar to the Jamaica line on its el from Hewes St to Chauncey St
Wednesday I wandered down to 30th St station, and managed to catch a glimpse of a strange sight. NJT 4400, an ALP44, in fact the first ALP44, delivered back in 1990, was sitting amongst the AEM-7s, E60s and P42s. I have seen Arrows there, but never managed to shoot a picture of them. I think I heard somewhere on this board that the Arrows are going to Wilmington for installation of some kind of cab signaling system, is that why the ALP was here? or are they doing something else. It seems odd, some of the ALP44s are really new, why didn't they come with a cab signaling system, it's only 12 years old, didn't the AEMs come with cab signaling? Also I saw the Pantographs being lowered (didn't take a picture of that, by then I was beating a path back to Drexel, I was late for my class). One of the workers, might be the one in the photo, was working something on one of the MU cables, he seemed to release something, and it looked like something spilled on him, that was followed by a long hiss of escaping air or steam. Might they have been preparing it to be towed to Wilmington?
One last thing, I have yet to see SEPTA's ALP44 anywhere, or for that matter any of the AEMs other than 2304 and 2306. Does SEPTA really have an ALP44? If they do, is it in a shop somewhere with the other AEM's? Photos of the two that I see regularly are available on the webshots site.
I apologize for the rather poor quality of the pictures, I am using a cheap RCA CDS1000 Digital Camera, possibly one of the most obtuse pieces of plastic and silicon ever made, But hey, it was free.
If the photo at top Doesn't work, click here
http://community.webshots.com/photo/51320290/51659843fdciOc
Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks.
NJT is installing a new technology cab signal system (US&S, actualy quite a slick setup, for a change) on their equipment. This to allow compatability with the ACSES on the NEC (if it ever gets installed, remember 25kv operation on the NEC?), and NJT's new PTS system.
As per federal law, the ALPs already have PRR style cab signals (3 aspect? 4?), or else they couldn't run on the NEC.
I thought NEC was 11kv and the M & E Division was 25kv.
Thank you. I knew there was something to do with cab signaling systems, just didn't realize that there were two different systems. I am supposing that the ALP-46s will come with the US&S system, if not it kinda seems like a rip off to get a bunch of brand new engines only to have to shop them right away.
And did I see a post here on a problem with the ALP-46s on the M&E? I seem to recall a post that said that they were breaking down or something. Is this true? I had high hopes for them, it would be a shame for NJT to get inducted into the 'Conbardier-screwwed-em' circle cause of the ALP-46s.
I like your expression :)
NYUK NYUK NYUK
Does SEPTA really have an ALP44? If they do, is it in a shop somewhere with the other AEM's?
I photographed SEPTA's ALP44 in Frazer shop on April 21, 2001.
Thank you again, Mr. Vogel.
Another case where I knew I'd heard something, but wasn't sure if it was true or not, or if I was just making stuff up.
Is 2308 in a shop, I mean, I know it was in the shop when you photographed it, but does anyone know if it still in the shop. I still keep seeing 2306 and 2304, although I may have seen 2307 or 2301, wasn't sure. Is most of the fleet out in frazier? Wasn't there some SEPTA conductor who introduced themselves a while back, you still you there?
Thanks again.
On October 4, 1955, the Brooklyn Dodgers defeated the despised New York Yankees, 2-0 at Yankee Stadium as the Bums won their first and only World Series in the borough of homes and churches as Brooklyn was once known as. It came four years and one day from the most tragic day in that borough's history and while it may be off topic and not important to many of you, it was and is very important to people who were around and remember that day.
Yes, and as a long-time (since 1954) fan of those despised Yankees let me say (1) the 1950s Brooklyn Dodgers were a great ball club; (2)it was a great Series that went right down to the wire (I still remember listening to the games on radio while in grade school, and watching on TV when I got home); (3) I'll bet most of the fans got to Yankee Stadium on the #4 and D, and to Ebbets Field on the 2,3,4,5 and Brighton Express/Local (today's Q).
Ironically, the Dodgers won their only New York subway series in the Bronx. And who would have believed that two years later the Dodgers would leave Brooklyn forever.
You might say that the Brooklyn Dodgers were a victim of the automobile and Subtalk's favorite whipping boy, Robert Moses.
O'Malley saw the middle class fans moving to Queens, Nassau and Suffolk. White flight was kicking in. The suburban, auto-oriented lifestyle was booming. The Dodgers' attendence was low and falling, despite the excellence of the team.
The story is, however, that O'Malley didn't want to run. All he wanted was the newly vacant lot at the Atlantic Terminal Renewal Area, and he'd build a stadium with his own money. The fans from Long Island could get there directly on the LIRR. City land and infrastructure, team-built stadium. That's essentially the deal O'Malley got in L.A. I'd take that deal for the Yankees and Mets right now.
Robert Moses, however, didn't want such a traffic heavy use in a traffic choked location, and he thought that people would want to drive. So he, legend has it, helped to block the deal. Later, he used public dollars to build Shea Stadium -- with just one subway line a long ride away from the homes of most subway riders, but lots of parking and highways.
Was O'Malley's offer serious, or was he just doing PR on his way out the door? We'll never know.
Post-script -- Brooklyn is more Afro-American than any NYC borough. In the 1980s, someone proposed an arena for the Atlantic Terminal, with the hope of attracting a basketball team. Surrounding, increasingly gentrified neighborhoods went nuts about the potential auto traffic and parking. The idea was shelved.
The half human O'Malley had already made a deal with Los Angeles when he made the gesture asking the city to give him land it did not own so he could build his ball park.
I also take issue with you on saying the attendance was poor. The Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in the National League given everything.
It is revisionist history to continue to blame Robert Moses for the rape of Brooklyn perpetrated by a semi human. Moses might have had 10% of the responsibility but the fact is it was illegal for the city to give the piece of shit O'Malley that land.
May that piece of shit continue to rot in hell along with the rest of his family.
You have just got to be a rabid Brooklynite to write such a thing. I hope O'Malley doesn't suffer because I don;t wish that on anybody. However, he has a lot to answer for up there when he runs into those millions of angry Brooklynites who he deserted in October, 1957.
You have just got to be a rabid Brooklynite to write such a thing. I hope O'Malley doesn't suffer because I don;t wish that on anybody. However, he has a lot to answer for up there when he runs into those millions of angry Brooklynites who he deserted in October, 1957.
You don't have to be a rabid Brooklynite to call a piece of shit just that. The Smithsonian Institute did a study several years ago and found that the rape of Brooklyn by this sub human was the most important thing that turned people off to baseball. It showed that no matter how well you supported a team, and there are many people who just don't understand that the Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in the National League even as late as the year of the franchise transfer, you are at the whim of sick selfish minds who are just interested in themselves.
No it is not too much to root for O'Malley to rot in hell. I just hope he continues to suffer through eternity for what he did.
The story is, however, that O'Malley didn't want to run. All he wanted was the newly vacant lot at the Atlantic Terminal Renewal Area, and he'd build a stadium with his own money. The fans from Long Island could get there directly on the LIRR. City land and infrastructure, team-built stadium. That's essentially the deal O'Malley got in L.A. I'd take that deal for the Yankees and Mets right now.
Robert Moses, however, didn't want such a traffic heavy use in a traffic choked location, and he thought that people would want to drive. So he, legend has it, helped to block the deal. Later, he used public dollars to build Shea Stadium -- with just one subway line a long ride away from the homes of most subway riders, but lots of parking and highways.
It looks as if Moses was right once again. Rememeber that we're talking about the late 1950's. Suburbanization was in full swing, as was the love affair with the automobile. Transit use, and city life in general, was something to be abandoned as part of one's past. It is indeed possible that suburbanites would have avoided a stadium at Atlantic Terminal despite its easy transit access.
Today, of course, things have changed. People don't look at transit with as much scorn, and they certainly aren't as starry-eyed when it comes to the automobile. A stadium at Atlantic Terminal quite likely would be a big draw for suburban residents, and most of them would readily use transit to get there. Unfortunately, while Moses was an astute observer of the contemporary mood, he couldn't predict the future.
(Unfortunately, while Moses was an astute observer of the contemporary
mood, he couldn't predict the future. )
Moses problem is that having observed the present in his early years, he couldn't see the future when it arrived, and he became an obstacle to rather than an enabler of broader social forces.
The same may be said of the opponents who eventually replaced him, who are NIMBYng everything to deal and diverting resources away from public works today. Their time passed more than 20 years ago, and they are killing us.
At least you New Yorkers can at least claim some consolation to that sorry state of affiars of the Dodgers leaving. Today they are nothing more than a middling mediocrity with the dumbest fans in the world and no future whatsoever. They are a sad case that deserves all the vitriol you can shove at them.
Thanks for the baseball stat.....my Dad was a Dodgers fan, at least until they left Bklyn. Even though I am from Brooklyn originally and grew up a Mets fan taking the 7 train (until they traded Seaver in 1977 and have hated them since), I now root against those men in blue since I live in the Bay Area. Go Giants!
Baseball and subways.....always linked. :-)
Question: I grew up in Sheepshead Bay on the Q and then D trains. If Ebbetts was still there, how would I have gotten there?
ScottinSF
Question: I grew up in Sheepshead Bay on the Q and then D trains. If Ebbetts was still there, how would I have gotten there?
Ebbets Field was served by the Prospect Park Station.
Right! And let's not hear how you could also get there on the damned IRT. Ebbets Field by subway was by the Brighton Express. The anticipation was terrific. The stop before was 7th Avenue and the time seemed to go on forever before we got to Prospect Park Station. But we finally emerged into God's own sunshine and we knew all was right with the world and we were in for a great day. Memories like that are priceless.
>>>"Ebbets Field by subway was by the Brighton Express."<<<
SBF, from most areas in the Apple by Brighton Express, yes.
But if you lived in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, "The Garden Spot Of
The World", it was the Lorimer Street Car, yes trolley car thru
1948, then the B48 ETB to see them BUMS. Sorry Fred, no need
for us Garden Spotters to go to Manhattan to connect with the
Brighton Express.
Fred, who was them BUMS named after? They was the Brooklyn
Trolley Dodgers for the fans attending Ebbets Field dodging
the Trolley Cars. Prior to 1945, it would have been the
Franklin Avenue Cars from Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza. Even
though the Tompkins and Lorimer cars passed by on Empire Boulevard.
;| ) Sparky
That's GreenPERNT (OR as the IND abbreviates it: GREENPT)
If you wanted to take the IRT to Ebbets Fld you would use Sterling Street station and walk a couple of blocks over.
wayne
>>>That's GreenPERNT (OR as the IND abbreviates it: GREENPT)<<<
Absolutely correct, I's from the PERNT.
;| ) Sparky
I had a shop teacher named Mr. Fishburg when I attended PS1 Queens. He always pronounced it pernt and he came from Brooklyn's Williamsburg area which was then heavily Jewish. One of the things about Greenpoint pointed out what I have believed all along about Brooklyn's baseball fans in the 40's into the late 50's when the Bums left town. Greenpoint had an Italian section and the division was close to equal between Yankee and Dodger fans, but the Poles, Lithuanians, Greeks, Jews, and others were practically 100% Dodger fans. My fellow Dagos loved DiMag, Scooter, Yogi, Vic and Billy. I despised the Italian Yankees more than any others on that team. To me Rizzuto was a sawed off little squirt who couldn't carry Pee Wee Reese's jock, and to me Yogi was a dork--period. Billy Martin was a punk and Jolton Joe acted like he was from Heaven.
ROTFL, :| )
Is the PS1 Queens, at 21th Street just North of Jackson Avenue,
Long Island City.
;| ) Sparky
Yes it is. I have many happy memories of the place but the school no longer exists. I wonder where the kids from K-8 now go to school? Is it PS4 or PS83?, or did they build a new school. We moved to a better neighborhood in 1953 so I did not go to PS1 my last year in New York but rather PS10, which sucked.
Fred,
PS1, the building does exist. It's something to do with artists.
That's why I asked, if you meant Long Island City. Pass by it
many times, but haven't ventured to see what it is all about.
Maybe, we stop by and see if "Railfans" are welcomed? >G<
;| ) Sparky
It's a art gallery of sorts, and hosts a weekly Saturday party w/DJ's, dancing, etc...called the "Saturday Warm Up". It's regarded as pretty much the hippest thing going.
Of course, the Dodgers had Skoonj himself, Carl Furillo. Campy had Italian blood from his father's side.
Some of the younger Italian kids in my neighborhood were, in fact, Dodger fans as contrasted with their older siblings and parents. I know in 1947 when I first became a little baseball nut the Dodgers had their share of Dagos on the team; Ralph Branca, Carl Furillo, Al Gionfriddo, Vic Lombardi, and Cookie Lavagetto, but it always seemed the Yankees had more and better players of Italian extraction which pissed me off no end. As far as Campanella is concerned, most considered him black which is why he was kept out of Organized Ball until 1946. But to Italian kids, he was at least half Italian and to me he was Italian. Campanella is as Italian as linguini. I always insisted to my friends that they must consider Campy at least a part Dago. In 1953, the year before I moved to California, the Dodgers also had Wayne Belardi and Bill Antonello.
Sal Maglie came over to the Dodgers in 1956. Of course, for years he was the most hated man in Brooklyn while with the Giants.
And in the last week of the 1956 season with Brooklyn just battling with Milwaukee for the NL pennant, he pitched a Maglie pitched a no hitter for the Dodgers against I believe the Phillies!
The 1956 season had a great ending. Brooklyn trailed Milwaukee by 1 game going into the final weekend. Milwaukee was finishing with a three game series in St. Louis; Brooklyn had a three game series against Pittsburgh. The Friday night game in Brooklyn was rained out making a Saturday double header necessary. Milwaukee lost in St. Louis Friday night so the Dodgers came into the Saturday double header 1/2 behind Milwaukee.
After the Dodgers won the first game, remember this was the era before electronic score boards with message boards, the workers at Ebbets Field took the Milwaukee pennant off the centre field flag pole which belonged to the first place team (the pennants were placed in the order of the league standings) and put the Brooklyn pennant onto that flag pole. The Dodgers won the second game of the double header which featured a near riot when Jackie Robinson was called out at second base on an attempted steal and the fans waiving their white handkerchiefs at the umpires which caused the umpires to threaten a forfeit. When Warren Spahn lost a heartbreaking 1-0 game on Saturday night in St. Louis, the Dodgers had a 1 game lead.
On Sunday, the Dodgers jumped out to an early lead and then held on thanks to a magnificent catch by Duke Snider against the centre field wall. And that was how the Dodgers won the last pennant they were to ever win as the Dodgers have ceased to exist after 1957.
We saw that double-header out here on the "Game of the Week" on CBS. It was one of the rare times they put a double header on the GOTW. On Sunday, Duke Snider hit two homers to ice Don Newcombe's 27th victory. Snider led the league in homers with 43, the last time a Dodger has led the Senior Circuit in that category. Newcombe won the First Cy Young Award and the league's MVP.
Greenpoint? I heard it called the "Garden Spot of America" when I was a kid, although for reasons I have never been able to fathom. I remember there was a big Polish area there and wonder if it still is. It is true there were many ways to get to Ebbets Field, but the most frequently traveled route and the one most talked about by the fans and players was the #1 Brighton Express, the train that carried the number of Dodger Captain, Pee Wee Reese.
>>>Greenpoint? I heard it called the "Garden Spot of America" when I was a kid, although for reasons I have never been able to fathom. I remember there was a big Polish area there and wonder if it still is.<<<
Well, Greenpoint may no longer be the "Garden Spot of America", but
it is definitely "Krakow on the East River". A visit to this hood,
will find the basic language spoken is not English or Spanish.
Bakerys, Delicatessens, Butchers. Welcome to a flair of Eastern
Europe.
Why not schedule a walk down Manhattan Avenue from Greenpoint to
Nassau on Monday or Tuesday next week and see for yourself. I'll
guide you thru the neighborhood.
;| ) Sparky
Correction, the "the" should have been deleted.
;| ) Sparky
If I can get Steve8AVEXP and the others to go along with it, why not? Steve is Eastern European descent (Lithuanian) and he might go for it. Let me know how to contact you.
I'd be curious to see Williamsburg, which used to be virtually all-Lithuanian, but it's not very high on my list of things to see.
I know of at least one very fine family style resturant that Sparky introduced some of us to. And he is right, I didn't hear much english spoken there. Worth the time !
Then we will play it all by ear. Remember, I'm flexible and will agree to just about anything.
SBF,
I'll be with you guys on Monday & Tuesday.
That is if they don't put me in a padded room after Sunday's
pow..wow at Branford.
;| ) Sparky
Is Howard 'Stern,' do eagles dare,' does a bear 'go in the woods,' is Greenpoint 'Polish?' When I started PS248 'SubSchool,' my only regret was not having time to explore the Manhattan bypass I used for the trip to CI. Life since September 11th has almost gotten back to normal and the opportunities to explore my city in off-time are now coming up. Instructor Phil pointed out to us that the end window on the fourth floor was a 'picture window' framing the WTC 'twin towers.'
All I can remember is the smouldering pile of ash. CI Peter
I'll go! I used to work in Northside (Bedford & N.4th) back in 82-84.
We will have to dodge the ox carts, no? :o>
wayne
Well, if we go to that area, we might as well go over a few more blocks to N. 5th and Havemeyer to my old stomping ground, Annunciation Parish.
Well, the intersection of Kingsland and Humbouldt, right in front of St. Stanislaus Kostka Roman Catholic Church is named Pope John Paul II Square, in honor of a visit His Holiness made there in the 80s.
wayne
OOPS that should be DRIGGS not Kingsland.
wayne
Greenpoint is almost 100% Russian by the I mean Ukranian and Checknian,almost all are Muslim.
Ukrainians are not Russians. Checnyans might be from the Russian Federation, but they're not ethnically Russian.
Also, there aren't really any Ukrainian Muslims, since if there are Muslims in the Ukraine, they wouldn't really be considered Ukrainian by other Ukrainians.
You have to be very careful about generalizing/stereotyping when it comes to ethnic backgrounds. You can really insult someone who is ethnic Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, or Lithuanian by calling them a Russian. Same thing with calling someone who's Portugese a Spaniard (sp). Bad choice.
Blame the Seaver trade on M. Donald Grant. Seaver wanted to renegotiate his contract and Grant wouldn't hear of it. Not to mention Dick Young was on Grant's side. Shea Stadium came to be known as Grant's Tomb after that trade. Whitey Herzog, who worked in the Met organization when they won it all in 1969, once told Grant to his face he didn't know beans about baseball.
If Hodges had remained alive, Seaver would have spent his entire career with the Mets.
Steve: Just hold tight Monday and Tuesday. I'm going to try to find the waiting room for the railroad (Is is the LI Railroad?) on Friday when I first get in so I have no trouble finding you guys on Mon and Tues. I'm going to railfan with heypaul on Friday, team up with you Saturday evening for Mass and dinner, then Bob on Sunday, and you and whoever on Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday my plane leaves at 8:10, so I have some time that day. I'm really looking forward to it.
COuld you give me the details of the meeting point Monday 10/14 again?
--Mark
Penn Station, LIRR main waiting area (the one at the 7th Ave. end of that long connecting corridor) between 8:00 and 8:30 AM.
It would be great if you could join us Mark. Of course, I find have to find the waiting room myself or the guys will take off without me. We are supposed to meet between 8:00-8:30. Hope to see you there, or is you hope I find my way there?
I have an idea: suppose we go to Penn Station after dinner on Saturday and I can show you where the main LIRR waiting area is? I need to check out the NJ Transit concourse anyway since I'm going out to Jersey on Wednesday.
That sounds like a helluva plan. This was there can be no slip up on my part. The only caveat would be if it is inconvenient for you I could check it out myself either on Friday or Saturday morning. Let me know. I still plan on going to Mass with you so let me know also where we should meet in the afternoon on Saturday.
We could meet by the church itself, either in front or in the vestibule. Mass is at 5:00. IIRC St. Francis Xavier is between 5th and 6th Aves. on W. 16th or 17th St.
That's a go. We will meet in front of the Church. The only remaining question is where do we meet up with Doug Wengeroff and his wife. He's the one who organized that railfan trip for me a year ago on April 1. I have to tell him. Where do you want to eat dinner. What kind of food do you want? Let me know. I'll be calling you this afternoon.
Preferably nothing spicy. Am fond of Italian cuisine; Lombardi's or Taormina's in Little Italy would be fine. I'm staying late at work today; should be home by 5-5:30 PM Mountain Time.
BTW, St. Francis Xavier is a good-sized church; you can't miss it.
According to http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/41_ftr.pdf
F runs on the E between 47-50 Roosevelt. Wait!, Q serves the Lexington Av-63rd, Roosevelt Island, and 21 St Queensbridges Stations. Is that referring the former orange Q? Cause it doesn't sound like the Q from http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnq.htm. I'm really confused here.
No, the Q will serve those stations and run down Broadway.
OH MAN! I thought that will be an orange Q reapparence and I just loaded a new roll of films into my camera for that G.O. Shot. OH WELL! Back to the yellow Q :(
I saw the train again today, Friday. It was headed westbound thru Forest Hills about 1:20. Returned eastbound about 2:00.
I wondering if this is one test train or two test trains running all over the place ? Car numbers would help.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had the same thought tonight as I saw it go east through Valley Stream (on the Babylon tracks) at about 8:15 PM. Still, I haven't seen any indication that it has been in two places at the same time, so I suspect it is just the one 6 car set.
CG
...and as quickly as that I stand corrected. I just noticed a railroad.net post which indicated that the train was heading east through Bellmore at 10:15 last night. I saw a set headed eastbount through Forest Hills at about 10:45, so it appears that there are indeed at least two sets of cars being tested.
CG
a testing train could make it from bellmore to forest hills in 30 min.
Yes, but the train at Bellmore was heading east (i.e. away from Forest Hills). The train at Forest Hills was also heading east 30 minutes later.
CG
Guys, I just feel that I have to vent someplace.
This has been a very sad week here. On Monday afternoon, my neighbor, Bill, 74, who also has been retired for a number of years, dropped in to visit. He normally visits weekly. I was home alone at the time and we sat in the kitchen, and talked for about an hour. I then took him to my basement trainroom to show him my MTH subway set. He collapsed on my trainroom floor, apparently from a heart attack.
When I couldn't wake him, I called 911. I know nothing about CPR, but with guidance from the 911 operator I did what I could until the medics arrived and took over. After a period they had him breathing with mechanical help, and took him to the hospital.
He was in CCU for three days in a coma. The family was able to get my wife and I in to see him on Wednesday evening. His eyes were open, but did not focus. The final CAT scans on Thursday resulted in the disconnection of life support. He passed away about an hour later.
Each member of his family has thanked me for my efforts in giving them three more days with their husband and father, yet I still feel there should have been something more I could have done, that he might still be with us today.
He left a wife and three grown children. He was my friend, and good neighbor for almost forty years, and I miss him.
How does someone get a grip on their feelings and emotions, after being a part of a tragedy like this?
(How does someone get a grip on their feelings and emotions, after being a part of a tragedy like this?)
What can I say? Life is a job, and a tough one.
When we were nailed by a really bad tragedy (our first child stillborn), we were crushed. All we could do is keep doing our routine -- the job of our life -- as best as we could until good things of equal weight came along to balance the bad ones. I couldn't fold up because I still people relying on me.
Same thing after the WTC disaster. We staggered home and were basically zombies for a week. We were so stunned that we didn't even vacuume up the dust which had blown in our open windows until a week later. We just hung out on the block with our neighbors and waited to find out who was killed. But eventually we had to clean our house, take care of our kids and go back to work.
The tragedies don't go away, but in the long run, maybe you get to even.
First of all, you are to be commended for doing what you could to save your friend. It didn't work out, but even highly trained rescuers do not succeed in most cases of a massive heart attack like that. It's natural to feel upset about it, but don't beat yourself up over it.
If you want to learn CPR, contact your local chapter of the American Heart Association or hospital emergency department. You can take a "Heartsaver" or first aid course where they can teach you CPR, and also the Heimlich maneuver to help someone choking on food. It's not hard to do once you've practiced it.
My condolences and best wishes to you.
I'd like to humbly add my sympathies as well. There isn't a whole lot you can do, and victims of a heart attack that severe rarely survive. I'm sure once Brother Elias passes through here, he can, from his own experience as a paramedic, tell you how bad the averages are.
That his family had the gift of three days to "settle up" with him is no shabby accomplishment either, and that he was still breathing by the time the ambulance arrived is something you should feel very good about doing for them all.
Life is a gift, one that should be enjoyed while the gift lasts. In a situation like this, you get an opportunity to once again see what is really valuable.
My condolences to your friend's passing. The pain of his sudden passing in your prescence may be around for some time. It all depends how bad you take it. Your attempt to save his life was a noble gesture to a friend and we here at SubTalk commend you for it. Just don't be overcome with guilt about not doing enough, you did plenty. Both my parents died of heart attacks so I know how you feel.
If you need to vent some more by e-mail, I'm sure some of us here have a sympathetic ear. If you are a praying man, maybe some prayers may help bring some comfort to you. I think his spirit was aware of your attempt to save his life and is aware of your feelings now. Hang in there and if you need us, send us a line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hang in there, Karl. You did what you could for your friend, but ultimately it is in G-d's hands.
When your friend was stricken you were sharing one of the most precious gifts you could give to anyone: your time, your enthusiasm, your friendship. Keep doing that. And when you do, I know that your friend, wherever he is now, will be smiling.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no answer for this. You did what you could do under the circumstances and you cannot be faulted. I survived 911, never knew how it would affect me and started TA a few days later. Crew member chastised my work habits....'You're working too hard and you're gonna die on the job.' My reply: 'If I do, I DIE amongst my friends.' It is not necessary for me to go any further with this. CI Peter
Karl,
There is no one answer, or right or wrong way to deal with tragedy. Time does heal wounds and hurts, but how long it takes can not be measured or prescribed for each individual. The hurt will dull over time, and the better memories will surface and push further away those hurts.
Too many people believe that physical objects are what is important to leave behind, however, the most powerful and precious thing a person can leave behind for loved ones and friends is memories.
I'm not saying for those who are suffering this is to be their answer, but I can only relate what helps me.
Mike AKA "Hot Lunch!" Herer
When you do not know what to do but ask for help and make a concerted effort...on the scene, you're the best. I fix trains and remain stupid.
Mike: You dine CI cusine? CI Peter
You did well, Karl.
I lost my mother within hours to a heart attack. A heart attack isn't really a sudden thing; it builds up from heart disease over a long period of time and by the time a massive heart attack occurs, even skilled doctors can't always help, even under the best circumstances.
There isn't any magic to make you feel better right away, but in time, you'll be able to appreciate remembering that your good friend spent his last conscious moments enjoying your company.
Over time, the sad parts fade, and we remember the joy and pleasure of all the years of good things.
There's not really anything I can add that already hasn't been said by other SubTalkers here, but I just thought I'd add my condolences. I guess the only real way to "get a grip" on something like this is to just give it time. There will be good days and bad days ahead, but it does get better in time.
Let us know if there's anything more specific we can do for you, other than offering words of support and our prayers.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
Karl,
I wish you (and your neighbor's family) peace and grace. You did all you could do when the tragedy struck. I lost my father to a massive heart attack(s) in 1969. He was only 62, and I still miss him. The sorrow will diminish, and you will have the happy memories to ease the occaisional pain.
Karl,
You gave more than first aid to Bill.
You gave more than three days to Bills family.
You gave Bill comfort and shelter from being alone at a milestone of his life. He was fortunate to be with friend.
avid
I think that you should consider yourself a hero. Though you couldn't save his life, you at least made the attempt to save someone who was in trouble by getting help right-a-way. I don't think that you can have any guilt in at least getting help for someone who needed help right-a-way and at least in this way you tried to save his life. Even under the best of circumstance, you can't save everyone's life when they are in trouble. Sometimes there is nothing that anyone can do to save someones life.
Amen
#3 West End Jeff
If it's any consolation, it is very unlikely that your lack of knowledge of CPR made any difference at all. The "success rate" of CPR, even when administered by well-trained people, is very low, somehing in the order of two or three percent.
Don't blame yourself over this. Its not your fault that you didn't have the CPR experience. You did the best you can.
That is realy unfortunate.
No one said that life was ever easy or hard, for that matter.
Each day, we face problems, obstacles and things that sometimes just overcome us.
I hope you feel better. Cheer up. Much better that wallowing in your own self-pity. Has an effect on your mind, ya know.
Karl, I know from some of our communications, how close you were. My profound sympathies. I can feel your anguish more than you know. I've been living a similar trauma. Two weeks ago my mother-in-law felt a little weak. My wife took her to the Dr. In the Dr's office she had a heart attack and suffered severe brain injury due to lack of oxygen. After a week it was clear from all of the tests that she would remain comatose for as long as she lived. My wife requested that no heroic steps be made to revive her should she have another attack. Her heart continues to beat and she continues to breathe.
It's been another long week of constant vigil. She lives on with only nutrients and oxygen.
I share this with you for two reasons. First, my mother-in-law's Dr. was on the scene immediately. Despite his years of medical training & practice, there was nothing he could do. You didn't stand a chance and were a good friend for trying.
Second, It was a blessing that your friend went quickly and painlessly. Trust me - I know first hand.
Karl,
I cannot say or add anything more than has already been expressed
by others here.
Living thru similar circumstances twice already in my life, with
my Mom and more recently with my Bride, Lucille, but not Heart
Attack but Stroke.
Mom lived on for ten years, thank the Lord, even thought the later
were in a coma, she had a strong heart. At the end, we just waited
till they notified us, it was over.
As for Lucille, recognized the symptons immediately and thanks be
to "Rudy Guliani" for merging the NYC 911 Medical Services into the
FDNY, it made the difference for her. 98% recovery.
Because of what many did for Mom, is why I devote many voluntary
hours to Trolley Museums. Just not my thing to volunteer at a
medical type facility.
Karl, you were there for your friend in the end, that's what counts.
May He Rest In Peace.
John "Sparky" Sikorski
Doing what you could was the best thing that you could do, and that is better than what many folks out there would have done in a similar situation. Remember the good times, and cherish the fond memories you had with your friend. The superheores exist in the comic books, and anybody looking for one had better go over to the local store to buy one. At least you tried, and that is the main thing. Rest easy.
Just another note. My first response did not even consider that you could possibly feel responsible for your friend's death, only that you feel bad about your loss and the loss by his family. Seeing some other responses, and re-reading your post, I see that such a concern might enter into your sadness.
But you shouldn't feel that way. Every day I see irresponsible behavior, people who roll along doing whatever it is they do as if they were the only "person" around. Roaring up the street in their cars. Nearly running people over on a subway platform. Etc. In contrast, you did all you could for your friend, and that's all you can do.
As I said, I learned the hard way that life is a job, at age 30. I'd imagine that people found out earlier in harsher times, but I didn't. The customs of being with your friends and family in death as a central obligation make more sense to me now, and you were there.
I want to thank each and every one of you for your posts and Emails of condolences, thoughts and advice.
I am not a stranger to grief, having been with each of my parents as they passed away after long terminal illnesses, but this seemed so different since Bill seemed to be in reasonably good health up to the time of the attack. I feel I should have been able to do more to help him fight it. My pastor spoke to me tonight, advising me that it was a massive attack, and there was nothing more I could have done.
Bill will be laid to rest on Wednesday.
Thank you all again for your thoughts and words!
Karl B
>>Bill seemed to be in reasonably good health up to the time of the attack.<<
That usually is the thing that upsets us all. My father died while working at 59 years of age of a massive heart attack, yet seemed in resonably good health.
My cousin was killed in a car accident on Route 202 near Paoli,PA. some ten years ago. He was finished with work and heading to the gym to work out, when traffic suddenly slowed and lost control of his car on a rain slicked road surface. He was forty two years of age.
These two deaths have one thing on common. They both died suddenly, that was a major shock to me. I was in a state of shock, just as you are now. The shock will wear off with time, so please bear in mind although you will heal in time, you will never forget your friend Bill. May God bless.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mike Saltzstein who operated the B&B Carousell at Coney Island was in apparently good health. when he suffered an apparent massive heart attack that took his life while he slept in the early morning hours of July 4th 2001. As some of you might remember it was quite a shock to me when I heard the news about his death the following night and I was quite hurt over it. Time though has healed the wounds and though he is now gone, I remember him for the pleasure he had with me everytime I saw him at the B&B Carousell.
One should also remember that none of us are created perfect either. Like perhaps all of us I have a slight flaw and that is my minor cleft palate that causes me a little pain every now and then. I'm thankful that it was minor, otherwise I would have needed surgery for it and that wouldn't have been any fun. I also have a few cleft related issues, but none of them are that significant. Like most of us, I have to manage with it and I'm fortunately doing very well with it. I still have a little pain from my cleft palate, but it isn't that terrible and I won't let it stop me from doing anything. Otherwise, I'm just another human being.
May god bless us all.
#3 West End Jeff
'Whereby the Grace of the Lord go we.' CI Peter
One thing I wanted to mention to you (CI Peter "On The Juice") that if it weren't for the late Mike Saltzstein, the B&B Carousell that is the last remaining wooden carousel at Coney Island wouldn't be there. Though now Mike Saltzstein is gone, he left behind a wonderful treasure that will hopefully be cherished for years to come. True I have my small problem with my minor cleft palate and the pain that goes with it. I'm doing well despite it all and I never let it get in the way of enjoying the rails. Plus, if it weren't for me, there wouldn't be a picture of R-33 Car No. 8888 posted on this website. We all contribute something worthy to civilization in one form or another.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, if you met me and I showed you my drivers license, you would say the license was bogus, rightfully. My TA ID is up to date...the difference between the two is less than two years. Some of the crew thinks I'm gaining weight but my pants inseam does not lie. The biggest worry I have at my age is how long can I keep up the harried pace doing 'troubles?' There I go by the Lords Graces. CI Peter
Most people's photos or their driver's license look like those of convicts at best. Some of them do look bogus. However, does a picture ever lie? We could have a debate about that.
#3 West End Jeff
What about the woman who demanded that her driver's licence picture be taken with her burqa on?
Anyway that is off topic...
My condolences to Karl and his neighbor's family; I know all too well that there are no words that can do justice to what they're going through right now.
Bill was cremated, and his remains were laid to rest this afternoon at 1 PM. It was a very nice graveside service.
The family seems to be doing well under the circumstances. I am concerned about Bill's widow because she relied on him a lot. Her health is not the best, and she will be completely alone now that the kids have returned to their own homes and families. The neighbors will be checking on her often.
I would like to thank each of you again for your support through your posts and Emails. They have helped me through a very tough time.
It is understandable that you are concerned about your late friend's widow. Hopefully they'll be good neighbors and watch over her.
#3 West End Jeff
Things like this definitely make you appreciate life so much more, and not be uptight about everything. Makes one want to live life to the fullest.....you can be here one day, then gone the very next day!! Sorry to hear about your friends' passing.....I know all too well about close personal losses!! :-(
My sincere condolences Karl. I would share a couple of thoughts with you:
My mother died of cancer last year, aged 75. While I miss her, my mother had a good life, enriched towards the end with the joy of grandchildren. We all have to go sometime, and 74 is not an unreasonable age to pass on to the hereafter.
Your feelings of guilt about “I could have done something more” are not uncommon. Many people who assist another person with a negative outcome believe that somehow they are to blame.
CPR has a low survival rate. The situations where it does better include a relatively young patient. If the outcome is unsuccessful, all that happens is that someone who died stays dead. In your particular circumstance, you kept enough of a person alive for medical technology to maintain breathing on life support for a few days. That alone, gave his family time to say goodbye.
The positive part of CPR, which is why we try it, is that if it does succeed, the benefits are enormous: a human being gets another chance at life! So, it’s worth trying, every time.
Practicing CPR can help. You can find courses sponsored by the Red Cross, the American Heart Association amongst others. If you live in Central New Jersey, I can arrange CPR/First Aid classes at Rutgers in New Brunswick.
Finally, you may want to have a word at the hospital where your friend passed away. There is counselling available for people who have unsuccessfully tried CPR, which will help reassure you that it’s not your fault.
Best wishes,
John
Karl, I am so sorry. My condolences. You did all you could.
--Mark
With the accident of the AirTrain at Kennedy Airport, I thought up this idea here. Do you guys think it is possible to convert the AirTrain line to subway standards, connect it to the Rockaway A line and reinstate the JFK Express service via this connection? From Manhattan to all terminals and terminating at Jamaica. Of course, extra fair required. I would put the price for JFK Express $3. And R46 or R68 cars would cover the service, no R143's.
What do you guys think?
To convert the Air Train to subway standards would take untold millions of dollars to tear up what's already there. Everything but the track gauge itself is different from NY subway operations - signals, traction motors, etc. Air Train cars are 60' long with a maximum of four cars since each station platform is 240' - so even theoretically only 60' rolling stock (R32, R38, R40/42, R143) could run there.
Doesn't sound likely. More likely we'll see a siginificant delay in Air Train opening so the accident can be thoroughly investigated and corrective measures taken.
Everything but the track gauge itself is different from NY subway operations - signals, traction motors, etc.
So? Rip out the reaction rail. Leave it in place, even, it won't get in the way.
It's not likely anyway, but not for this reason.
Mark
No to all your questions, and MTA long ago declined to exercise its option to do it. Go into the archives and find out how many times this topic has been chewed over.
Why do you think this accident is so significant? While I mourn the loss of the test train's driver, this accident isn't shutting the system down.
Yet, with all of the physical impediments to hooking into the subway -- not to mention the political and legal ones -- they have made a provision in the guideway over the parking lot for doing just that. Or could they be thinking of sharing part of the old Rockaway Beach LIRR ROW with the subway and extending airtrain in that direction at some point in the future?
"Yet, with all of the physical impediments to hooking into the subway -- not to mention the political and legal ones -- they have made a provision in the guideway over the parking lot for doing just that. "
I am not aware of any aspect of the guideway which is designed for use with the subway. Perhaps yopu could explain or display exactly what it was you saw and why you think it's subway-related? Could it be simply a provision for a future AirTrain storage or layup track?
"Or could they be thinking of sharing part of the old Rockaway Beach LIRR ROW with the subway and extending airtrain in that direction at some point in the future?"
No, they're not. That's a Subtalk fantasy, nothing more.
Any "intermodal" use of the LIRR would begin at Jamaica, not at Howard Beach. There has been talk about that at the PA; it's just talk right now, no $$$.
My comment is based on remarks by the tourguide during the recent ERA tour of the JFK Airtrain. The not-really-much-of-a-plan would require design and acquisition of a fleet of hybrid vehicles capable of operating compatibly on both subway and Airtrain tracks at some point in the indefinite future. As the subway and Airtrain use the same gauge tracks, the major design obstacles I see in creating a hybrid would be 3rd rail shoes, ability to use both systems' voltages, and vehicle dimensions that will allow them to platform in both systems. Of course, the Hybrid would have to use conventional electric motors instead of LIMs.
As for the "provision" itself, I have not seen it myself and don't know what the details are. When it was mentioned, it sounded like something that was done purely on speculation and without any reason to believe that it would ever be used. For the foreseeable future, It probably has about the same chance of being used as the provision for extending the BMT local tracks Northwest under Central Park from 57th Street. At the time I took the tourguide at his word and didn't question whether he knew what he was talking about. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. Perhaps someone else on this Board was on the tour and heard what was said and can add to my limited recollection.
Regarding the contact shoe thing about adaptation to usage of both systems third-rail voltages, I say why not do like the AEM-7, with it's ability to operate on both 11,000-volt NEC (NYC-WAS, NH-BOS) catenary and Metro North New Haven Line 12,500-volt catenary, create a shoe that can operate on the 600-volt NYCT system and it's own ROW third-rail voltage. It's nothing impossible to develop, so why not try it? I think it has potential.
You're right that multi-voltage equipment is not too uncommon, but the shoe problem may also have a physical/geometric side to it. While both systems use over-running shoes, the question still remains whether the 3rd rails are in the same position relative to the trucks or will the shoe position have to be adjustable.
"As for the "provision" itself, I have not seen it myself and don't know what the details are."
There is no provision. It's railbuff fantasy, that's all.
Thisa is a pointless discussion. The connection to the subway is now here, though it will not be used until the PA has corrected whatever deficiency (structural or operational) led to the tragic accident on the guideway).
Let's move on, shall we?
As the subway and Airtrain use the same gauge tracks, the major design obstacles I see in creating a hybrid would be 3rd rail shoes,
No need: the JFK Airtrain already has the familiar overrunning third rail exactly where it should be.
Mark
Then why didn't they just build an extension of the existing subway line from Howard Beach to JFK instead of building a dedicated rail line that New York City subway cars cannot use. It would have been cheaper and easier to build an extension of the existing subway line rather than to build the "Airtrain" line.
#3 West End Jeff
West End Jeff,
Yu've been posting long enough here to know there's probably 100 miles of threads on this subject. Please read them.
The basics:
The MTA has a ROW and the option to extend the A train into JFK. They elected not to do so because the 75 foot subway cars they were running on the A would not transit around the terminals very well, because they did not want to put yet another branch onto the A line, which would negatively affect service to the Rockaways if that line would run with reasonable frequency. A third reason is that, since the JFK Express (the super-express) is no longer a viable option, the MTA would have been investing a considerable amount of money into extending a line which is already a very long ride from Manhattan. While the newest subway car purchases eliminated the first reason, the second and third reasons remain.
"It would have been cheaper and easier to build an extension of the existing subway line rather than to build the "Airtrain" line."
Wrong. The subway extension would have been at least equally expensive and would not have provided a connection to the LIRR. AirTrain cost about $250 million permile, and TA construction costs are considerably higher.
Can we not beat this dead horse again? Go back and look at previous threads so we can discuss fresh topics.
AirTrain cost about $250 million permile, and TA construction costs are considerably higher.
I wonder why? I would have thought that, with the LIM parts in the roadbed, AirTrain would be more. Is there that much less graft at the PA?
"I wonder why? I would have thought that, with the LIM parts in the roadbed, AirTrain would be more."
It's because AirTrain is almost 100% elevated and new NYCT projects are 100% underground, usually also interworking with existing lines that can't be shut down for more than a weekend.
NYCT projects are underground because they happen to be underground. There's no law, policy, or anything else that would prevent NYCT from deciding to build on or above ground should the engineers decide that's the way to go (barring the usual NIMBYs, of course...).
David
>>> There's no law, policy, or anything else that would prevent NYCT from deciding to build on or above ground <<<
I am afraid "anything else" includes NIMBYS and the reality of political pressure.
Tom
True, generally.
However, note that ground construction from the airport terminals to Howard Beach did not face any kind of NIMBY pressure.
Yes...however, there were no BYs (backyards) in the area for people to be against the train running through.
David
Correct. That's why.
Would the Port Authority been willing to have make the line compatible with MTA equipment if they had to?
#3 West End Jeff
Would the Port Authority been willing to have make the line compatible with MTA equipment if they had to?
They did have to.
It's still far more likely that a hybrid vehicle would use any possible interconnection than a conventional LIRR train.
Mark
Oneseat ride info:
http://www.nylovesbiz.com/Press/2000/oneseat2.htm
Tanks for posting that.
I certainly have no objection to people spending private funds to discuss the "one seat ride." For the moment, I'm content to have the passenger transfer tax money and public funds complete the deployment of AirTrain and fix up Howard Beach and Jamaica. After that, we've got enough on the plate. But anyone is free to spend private capital on this.
>>> Oneseat ride info: <<<
An interesting historical note from 2 ½ years ago.
Tom
What they could do is disconnect the Howard Beach and Van Wyck branches of the Airtrain from the Central Terminal Area, thus allowing for the conversion of the Howard beach Airtrain branch to Subway standards and the Van Wyck to LIRR standards.
Then you run the Subway over the Airtrain's Howard Beach branch to Terminal 1, where folks can then transfer to the Central Terminal Airtrain (loop) if they are heading to a terminal other than Terminal 1.
The same with the LIRR, run the LIRR over the Airtrain's Van Wyck branch to the new AA terminal being built that will consolidate Terminals 8 & 9. If folks are headed to another terminal besides the AA terminal they can just transfer to the Central Terminal area Airtrain.
Gets folks alot closer to the Terminals.
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/link1.htm
Then you run the Subway over the Airtrain's Howard Beach branch to Terminal 1, where folks can then transfer to the Central Terminal Airtrain (loop) if they are heading to a terminal other than Terminal 1.
For what purpose?
People would do their transferring on-airport rather than at Jamaica or Howard Beach. Other than that (and the likely change in fare structure, which has yet to be announced anyway), this plan works exactly the same way as what's being built.
It also unnecessarily complicates the routings of both LIRR and NYCTA, unless the trains are run as shuttles, in which case you've created a three-seat ride.
Mark
Complete waste of money. People still have to transfer to get to a terminal - so it makes no difference where that transfer happens.
While I mourn the loss of the test train's driver, this accident isn't shutting the system down.
Of course not. You can't shut down something that isn't running in the first place. :-)
I was wrong (the PA spokeperson was wrong in saying that the speed was no more than 30 mph) about the low speed of the train.
See the story here: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-air1005,0,2293688.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
Now the other posters who assumed or speculated about higher speeds have their scenarios more plausible. But NTSB still has not determined the relationship of speed to the curve to the accident etc.
Actually, the speed was at least 55mph, in manual operation. This gives a bit more relevance to the now deceased operator's comments about high speeds. It may also point some blame to him (maybe)
Some arithmetic here.
Speed = 55 mph = 80 feet per second.
Radius of curve (pure guess) = 300 feet (pure guess).
Acceleration (all sideways if the curve is not banked) =
(speed squared)/radius = 21 feet per second squared = .66 g's!
Coefficients of friction for non-greasy substances like concrete tend to be in the general neighborhood of 0.3, which could therefore resist an acceleration of about 10 feet per second squared.
Now there is AMPLE opportunity for a shifting load to have done some serious damage, especially if it didn't cover the whole floor and had a chance to get some speed before slamming into the side of the train.
There is still lots of opportunity for it NOT to have been a shifting load. Any banking of the curve diminishes the sideways force. And if there was a single layer of blocks covering the whole floor, they wouldn't have had an opportunity to slide anywhere. But at least it's more plausible now.
And this calls into question the use of concrete blocks standing free on a plywood floor instead of sandbags, which are harder to handle, but less apt to shift, no less slide.
Actually, the speed was at least 55mph, in manual operation. This gives a bit more relevance to the now deceased operator's comments about high speeds. It may also point some blame to him (maybe)
I am still content to wait for the NTSB's report before pointing to "pilot error".
Assuming that the curve was rated at substantially less than 55 mph there are now many more questions to be answered about the safety of the system's signal system. How could a train go into a curve at an excessive rate of speed? This should not be possible with a conventional block system which would have had timers protecting the curve. A CBTC system should have something similar.
The AirTrain trucks are equipped with track brakes. These sould have stopped a train going 60 mph in less than 9 seconds and in less than 400 feet had they been activated. There should have been plenty of time to prevent the derailment.
Even if the driver were joy riding, the signal system should have prevented the derailment. It didn't. This raises the question of what else it may not prevent. I would be far more reluctant to proceed to opening the system before the failure mechanism is fully determined.
I expect the NTSB report to make very interesting reading.
Agreed with all your points. These are possible faults which, while most unfortunate and distrbing if true, can and must be addressed now. The PA must double-check all these areas even before NTSB comes out with a final report.
It will be interesting reading.
These are possible faults which, while most unfortunate and distrbing if true, can and must be addressed now. The PA must double-check all these areas even before NTSB comes out with a final report.
According to ny1, the PA has suspended testing until the NTSB issues its report.
According to ny1, the PA has suspended testing until the NTSB issues its report.
That could significantly delay AirTrain's opening, as the NTSB takes all due time in issuing its reports. Unless maybe the PA is waiting only for some sort of preliminary report rather than the final one?
Very well.
The AirTrain trucks are equipped with track brakes. These sould have stopped a train going 60 mph in less than 9 seconds and in less than 400 feet had they been activated. There should have been plenty of time to prevent the derailment.
Possible scenario: AirTrain computer faulty, the operator notices that the train is going far too fast for the curve. He yells "FUCK" and grabs the emergency brakes. The emergency brakes are activiated, resulting in sudden deceleration. The force causes the load to shift forwards and sideways (by this time the train may already be on the curve), striking the front side corner of the vehicle, pinning the driver, also causing a derailment due to impact of load and train bodyshell.
All we need to find out to discount this scenario is to see if the emergency brake was in fact deployed.
AEM7
The emergency brakes are activiated, resulting in sudden deceleration. The force causes the load to shift forwards and sideways (by this time the train may already be on the curve), striking the front side corner of the vehicle, pinning the driver,
Track brake deceleration rates are in the 6-7 mph/sec range or 0.28-0.32g range.
...also causing a derailment due to impact of load and train bodyshell.
There are a lot of fundamental design problems, if a shifting live load can cause a derailment. That requires a "back to the drawing board" response.
Possible scenario: AirTrain computer faulty, . . .
But they are saying it was being operated in Manual Mode. Does the computer control train speed in Manual Mode?
In DC, when the MetroRail is in manual, certain computers are making sure the train isn't going too fast. If an operator exceceds the speed limit and does not slow down, the train will go BIE. Cab signalling does have similar ways of doing what a grade timer can do.
That's true, but WMATA equipment is designed to be operated manually in revenue service with computer supervision of the operator. Given that Airtrain is designed to be fully automatic in revenue service, I wonder if its manual mode is more fully manual than most new systems.
Possible scenario: AirTrain computer faulty, the operator notices that the train is going far too fast for the curve. He yells "FUCK" and grabs the emergency brakes. The emergency brakes are activiated, resulting in sudden deceleration. The force causes the load to shift forwards and sideways (by this time the train may already be on the curve), striking the front side corner of the vehicle, pinning the driver, also causing a derailment due to impact of load and train bodyshell.
Well one part of that scenario can never be proven, as there are no voice recorders on the AirTrain ....
It is certainly easy enough to determine if there was brake application, and if so, how and when. The NTSB may already know that, but have not released information about it to the public.
Since the system is designed for automatic operation in revenue service, is it possible that manual operation is designed to be just that -- purely manual, with no automatic safety features? Or with fewer automatic safety features in manual mode than one would expect if the system were designed for OPTO revenue service?
There are many possibilities. The NTSB will contain a thorough explanation of the signal system, if past reports are any indication.
Could it be possible that the signalling system not fully deployed or being used at the time
I'm willing to wait for the NTSB report for an explanation.
Does it really matter if it was 50 or 30 MPH? Was this 'monorail' so shoddy that it derailed? 16K pounds of unsecured concrete blocks...trainet derailed, came crashing down, hit a wall and T/O was crushed by the blocks? Sounds like R142, smells like R142, PA bought a 'bill of goods.' Oh Canada, your trainsets are such crap.
We're loading B52s with napalm cannisters. What the Frenchies/Canadiens do not have is the guts to kill off their own people. Stinkin Vichy pigs.
Cool down, Juice. I can understand some posters here posting nonsense like that before the facts are in, but you have no excuse.
If Airtrain was going 50-55 MPH, any clue what that curve was rated at ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I do not know. You pose an ecellent question.
Many places the NY subway uses what I call guardrails just inside the running rails, to keep the train straying too far left or right during a derailment. Recall that a month ago, someone posted on this message board a photo of an el train that jumped nose-first to the street at 6th Avenue and 53rd Street. To prevent that, the guardrails were installed. To fall to the street, the train would have to "jump" the guardrail on the opposite side (if the train derailed left, the right wheel would sometimes be caught by the guardrail). This presumes that the train is so heavy that it is reluctant to jump. So: does the Airtrain route use guardrails between the tracks on curves? Joe
Photographs on the PA's AirTrain website show such guardrails in place: http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/constructionframe.htm
Uh, less than 50?
Just kidding,
Matt
The 600 R-32 cars were born at the Budd Company Plant.
All 600 of them grew up based in Coney Island.
According to the 9/13/02 car assignments, a scant 50 of the 594 that survive still call Coney Island home.
I figure within 6 months the remaining 50 will find new homes in Forest Hills or Pitkin.
I can recall seeing seas of stainless steel R32's in CI yard to service the N, T, Q, and TT. They were along side of the R27/30 cars for the RR and QT/QB. It seems unreal that the day is soon when there will not be R32's at CI.
Any thoughts?? Mine is at least the fleet is still strong, although elswhere.
i too think they belong in CI yard,they are one of my favorite subway
cars,they belong in CI.
til next time
Sorry, but 'they're my favorites' isn't a valid reason to concentrate a fleet of subway cars in any one place. Subway car assignments (which are to maintenance shops, not to yards, by the way) are based on maintenance and operational needs. The R-32s are leaving Coney Island because, with the entry into service of R-143s in East New York, some of East New York's cars (R-40 and R-40M) are no longer needed there and are moving to Coney Island, which already has similar/identical cars. This, in turn, displaces R-32s to Jamaica, which already runs R-32s, which allows for different R-32s to go to Pitkin (remember, since overhaul there are two "types" of R-32 -- some have NYAB brakes, and some have WABCO brakes; there are other differences as well). The cars going to Pitkin are like R-32s that were already there.
David
Since there are 2 different 'types' of R32 with their different brakes. Is there any way to distinguish them both when riding. Can both types be hookd up and run, in yard and revenue service?
Phase I is WABCO brakes. They have a solid sound like that on the R40s and R68As. "SHHHHH" The Phase IIs have the NYAB a lot like those on the R68s but a tad different. "SHHH AHHH"
Do Phase III brakes then proceed to a "SH*T" prior to a crash?
:0)
Maybe some of those rigs at East New York. 4461 comes to mind.
Which car numbers are Phase 1 and which are Phase 2?
I don't believe they were grouped by number series.
David
You are correct, they are thoroughly mixed, odd couples included; there's no rhyme or reason as to what's a Phase I and what's a Phase II. One thing I did notice is that there did not seem to be any Phase I at CI, and there did not seem to be any Phase II at Pitkin.
Jamaica was a mixture. And, yes, they can run in the same consist.
wayne
And that means more railfan windows on the "A", my favourite express run through the Fulton IND.
wayne
I'm all for that. We'll have to go out to Rockaway Park on one of those next week.
Just like the R7 and R9 cars started on the IND they ended their life on the BMT. Now it the R32 started on the BMT to end their life on the IND.
No more R32s at Coney Island anymore. That sucks! Why can't Pitkin get the Slants and R40m's?
They are familiar with Phase I R32s. So that's why they're getting them. The only other yard with Phase I cars is Jamaica. They have Phase II as well as I. So if they give up a Phase I, they naturally take one back from Coney Islands Phase II fleet.
To concentrate Budd-built, all stainless, corrosion proof cars on all underground routes of the C & E makes no sense.
The other cars aren't in immediate danger in a case like the R44 truck cracking. They can still run anywhere. And they also need to take into consideration the yards. They try to concentrate the least amount of cars to the least amount of yards to keep the amount of spares down. It's $.
Cuz Pitkin is set up to maintain only R32's and R44's. CI has experience with the R40 slants and the eastern division's R40M's are mechanically identical.
Just because no R32's will be assigned to CI doesn't mean that you'll never see one there. Remember, R32's run on the F and will return there next year. Ditto with the R46's. They haven't been assigned there for over a decade, yet they're still a common sight.
Any thought if R32's still run on the N line? I would like to see R32's and R40M/R42's on the D line, just for old times sake. I always identified these cars to the D, just like R10 was to the A.
the R32 still run on the N line,as for seeing the R40m/R42 on the D line,it ain,t gonna happen.i would like to see em on that line,but it
won,t happen.
til next time
One of the early bastions of the R32 was the post-Chrystie "D" line. The R40M and R42 did not appear on the "D" until much later, perhaps the late 70s and early 80s.
wayne
ADDENDUM /amendment to the previous:
There WERE, of course the R42 that were initially assigned to the "D" upon delivery, in 1969-1970. These would be: 4696-4699, 4700-4799, 4800-4805, a total of 110 units.
wayne
I love R32. It is truly the train and place that I grew up on.
AMEN TO THAT BROTHER. NOTHING MORE EXCITING THAN A RAILFAN WINDOW ON THE E TRAIN. I LOVE MY E WITH R32s
Are conductors thouroughly trained when it comes to New Tech door operation? When I say this it is because I see many conductors on the 6 handling the R142A's like the R62A's and the Redbirds. Instead of letting the doors handle the door holders and door blockers, i've seen conductors "bounce" the doors ( doors closing, then reopen partially and continue to close), and suddenly recycling the entire the trainset. Have conductors been tought how to use the 'local recycle' feature? It appears that bouncing the doors thouroughly confuses the computers, as one set of doors on car 7393 appeared to get stuck before deciding to continue to close.
Have C/R's on the R143's and on the 2 and 5 line been trained any differently?
One of my C/R don't like using the "Local Recycle" on the R143's. She was the one of th first C/R to be trained on them and was used in the testing out of and in serivce. She say that to many people comlpaned that the door hert them becouse they close to hard before opening up again. So now I sit at 14st-Union Sq and 6ave for about a 1 or 2mins just so she dose not have to hit anyone with the doors. I hate going to work on Saturdays becouse of this. I say if the people keep getting hit like this, then maybe they will learn not to hold the doors.
Robert
Exactly, that's what the L line superintendent told me...the R143s close harder every time with the local recycle feature to discourage them from holding doors. Maybe they'll learn one day...:-\
I'll be impressed when trainsets are equipped with retractable blades. Though no conductor will publicly agree with me here, I see that smile. :)
" Ladies ang Gentlemen, for your fingers' sake, Do Not Block The Doors While the Train Is In the Station"
Or as I would have been more apt to whisper into the wall hole, "Ladies and gentlemen, MOVE IT OR LOSE IT" ... and ya wonder why they kept putting me on trains with no PA. :)
Gee, I wonder why..:)
Actually I'd like to have little pieces of metal embedded in the door rubber that are connected directly to the contact shoe. :)
Atta boy! Heh. Ya can't play beat the clock with kibbitzers jamming the doors. :)
Thanks for responding Robert! Now about the C/R: Doesn't she realize that she's defeating the whole purpose of the local recycle feature? Perhaps you can complain about her, and she can get written up for causing a delay in service.
Doesn't she realize that she's defeating the whole purpose of the local recycle feature? Perhaps you can complain about her, and she can get written up for causing a delay in service.
Sounds like you need some training yourself. Would you write someone up because you perceive she is unaware of a procedure? How is she causing a delay in service if her procedure used on new cars is SOP on older cars? Is the running time shorter for the R143s? I always felt the TA never trained their employees enough, how many motormen knew their last cars were smoking up brakes while they were smoothing out stops on the R9s, maybe except Selkirk?
I think Robert made it pretty clear that the conductor does not like the procedure and is therefore choosing not to follow it, in violation of her training.
If she was unaware of it, I would agree with you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert made it clear that the conductor didn't like the practice, but he also stated the doors close hard on passengers. His one to two minutes lateness is not specifically blamed on use of one button over another. I find it hard to believe the doors will close harder because of the buttons, the voltage is supposed to be the same. Maybe Stef or TD can answer this one, is it possible for a closing DC door motor to deliver more torque while it is being delayed by a passenger's foot after the other doors in the DC1 circuit have already been closed, locked and out of the circuit, or does the voltage to the engine go up after the other are out of the equasion?
My interpretation of his statement didn't include any notion that the cycling of the doors was any harder, just that passengers who were holding the doors complained about being struck by the doors, probably repeatedly, hence it hurt. Rather, I took it to mean that the conductor wasn't closing the doors AT ALL until she was certain no one was holding them.
I would not expect that the force exerted by the doors would vary based on the switch used to trigger them, although I could be wrong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're on shortwave...your HF contact says your signal is fading...squeeze the PTT button on your microphone for a stronger signal. Oxymoron for moronics. CI Peter
speaking of conductor training, how do you get it, and how do you land a position for train conductors and operators?
Hey, hey, HEY! I was *proud* of my blue smoke! :)
Besides, we all know smoking was illegal in the subway and they NEVER wrote up MY cars. Heh. I've explained it before here, anybody remember WHY Arnines smoked?
What's arnine?
A term I coined here to eliminate the arguments over the IND prewar cars. Back in my day, whatever it was, it was called an R-9 ... however here there's folks that would insist that R4's ran here, R6-2's ran there and thus I couldn't have been on an "R-9" when in reality, most trains were mixed mongrels of whatever coupled and stayed that way. So by using "Arnine" as a generic, the arguments were avoided. Then it kinda stuck. :)
Oh, Interesing! Thanks for responding SelkirkTMO! There is so much that I don't know, but I'm learnin'.
You're most welcome ... and there's plenty of good learning here too among the noise. :)
Oh, Interesing! Thanks for responding SelkirkTMO! There is so much that I don't know, but I'm learnin'.
From the lubricant (or lack thereof) on the friction journals?
Brake shoes on the greased wheels. Of course, hot journals also did their contribution, but the free blue smoke there was generated without the benefit of brake application. :)
There was SO much mechanical slop on most Arnines that the grease would work its way all over the trucks and would get flung out onto the flanges. Some of them needed a new greasebag almost daily.
Weren't the journals themselves oiled as opposed to greased?
Dunno. I'd guess greased, but I wasn't hired on as a car inspector. RCI's told me the scenario and it sounded real to me. Back in the days of the standards they put oil-soaked rags into boxes and packed them in there tight. Arnines were "new tech" ... heh.
Journal boxes greased or packed with oil soaked rags??? Shame upon everone...the bearings are sealed for their lifetime and must be replaced upon leakage/failure. When we report journal bearing failure on R142s....BBD cleans em out with solvents and gives an OK.
When I inspect Redbirds, I check the bearings for abnormal leakage, write em up in my inspection report and clean the materiel out thoroughly for the next inspection...which may never come. CI Peter
Friction bearings, as used on R-1/9's were packed with "wool waste"; the bottom of the journal box acted as a reservoir for the oil. The wool absorbed the oil and lubricated the bearings as the axle rotated.
Dat's da truth ... you could hear them braying as you applied. Baaaaaaa. :)
So Bombardiers journal bearings are lubricated with the 'crap waste' that infects my lungs? If a 'sealed bearing' poring out glop...is not that bearing defective??? B52s on the tarmac...napthalmic cannisters and willie peter in the racks. CI Peter
You can't write someone up for not using Local Recycle. There is no set proceedure on Door operation on R142/R142A/R143'S exept for the proceedure already on the books which includes all car classes. When the C/R is ready to close down they must make sure the doorways are clear. If someone get cought in the door reopen and make the closing door announcement and close down again until you get indication. Most TSS's will tell you to use Local recycle but its not in writeing. Also if someone claims injury over getting hit with the doors thats
on the C/R. So Roberts C/R is doing nothing wrong.
i am sorry but it is good for them because of the usual fact that they aren't supposed to hold up train service. of course that will be adjusted but i would keep it if i were in charge
I'll admit I never use local recycle, but its out of habit not out of not wanting to hit the customers. Being XXL I see the L maybe at most once every 3 months (although recently I'm there every Sunday), and I always forget Loc. Recyc. I see someone whose going to hit/grab a door and hit Open before I know what I'm doing.
Please get into the habit of having the doors chew a person's hand off. :)
Are you on the L today 10/6/02. I have 309 on Sundays.
Robert
That local recycle is a lawsuit waiting to happen!! Not to mention a possible source of additional customer/conductor confrontations and assaults on conductors. I think the idea meant well, but the designers didn't realize how hard those doors hit when they recycle. I suggest not using it!! I had a student posting with me one time, and a T.S.S. came over and was telling him about using it. I said I don't use it because it is nothing more than a confrontation and/or assault waiting to happen. I suggest to every TA conductor/train operator (when doing M OPTO with the R-143) not to use the local recycle and just do it the old fashioned way.
I work on #6 line a few days a week. I know its 50/50 on C/R's useing Local recycle and the old fashioned way. We now have a lot of C/R's from B Div over here and they all reopen the whole train. As for me I'm in the 50% that use Local Recycle. On the 6 Line I feel C/R's need to use it to keep the trains moving. If riders DON'T want to get hit with doors they won't stand in the doorway or hold doors. Most of the when they think about holding the doors and the door come back on them they forget about it and let the train go.
AND, after all (once again, you show you're THINKING like a professional) if the doors provide "ouchy" it ain't the CONDUCTOR doing it, it's this damned TRAIN. "Human interface" Geez, folks are gonna start wondering if I'm sucking up between this and the prior message because the geese won't ask themselves, "what could a clown from upstate New York GET from a conductor when he's already been a motorman and gotten some R143 HANDLE TIME?"
The answer of course is NOTHING. Conductors may rule the train, but motormen can slice cars in half. Boowahahaha. :)
Dave's a REALLY good guy, watches OUT for his geese like a pro and doesn't phuck up the railroad. Ain't many like him from what *I* saw on the railroad lately and folks like Unca Dave deserve a HUG from their geese for not beating them senseless. 'word.
When I grow up, I wanna ba C/R on the #6. MY geese will learn the hard way! :)( insane laughting fit)
After a few months on the job, I now realize how to determine whether or not I have a slow C/R on an R-142.
If the C/R let's the entire automated annoucement play at every station, then he/she is a slow C/R. At some stations, it's evitable that the C/R won't be able to close down fast. But when this happens at every station, then you're going to be late.
If the C/R closes down before the "stand clear of the closing doors please", part of the annoucement, then I know we have a chance of being on time.
I don't think enough people realize just how important the C/R really is. I didn't until I became a T/O.
My T/O's like the way I rock the doors. I hear T/O's on the #6 Line talk all the time they are working with a slow C/R. One of my T/O made me feel real good the other day when she told the train crews how good I operate and I should teach my fellow C/R's how to operate. Someone then told me she never talks that good about any C/R. I just simple said behind every good C/R there is a good T/O.
I was a passenger on the 6 line a few days ago. Got on at 51st going s/b. First thing I noticed was that the train was late, and the T/O entered the station slower than I enter, and certainly slower than most enter the station.
So I rode the first car, and watched her operation through the cab window. She was a slow T/O. On almost any station, you're supposed to get indication, go to full power, and hold it until you're one car length from the next station. Then go to coast, and put a few cars in the station, then take a hard break. When I do this, I keep my time on the 6, and get no complaints from ccstomers or C/R's.
This T/O was grabbing a little break before every station, or upon hitting the station. So I knew it was her who was making the train late.
Yeah, but there is a dark side to operating like that on an R142. If you do anything against the rules, and someone bangs you in because say for example they got hit by the doors, you won't have a leg to stand on. You're sunk. All because of that wonderful --EVENT RECORDER--. Of course it's different with an R62/62A since you don't have the train banging you in.
Don't get me wrong, I love quick C/R's, and I was definitely a quick one (I still get fellow T/O's jokingly trying to coax me into going back in title). As a T/O I've mellowed a bit, but I still make sure that when my C/R passes that indication, that train is outta there.
But as far as these R142/142A/143's go, there is absolutely NO WAY that I will operate against the rules with those trains.
Give me a R42 on the L, I'll operate like a pro.
Give me a R143 on the L, I'll operate like an 85 year old lady coming from church.
Schedule? Fuck the schedule. I'll get there when I get there. Of course I'll attempt to get there on time, but safety comes first. Especially the safety of my paycheck.
I operate a R143 the same way I do an R42. If you know the timer then keeping time come easy. The only thing is that the R143 pick up speed faster when costing in some section of the line. So in these cases I just hole a min brake to keep it from getting away to fast. I still can hit 50mph in both direction of the river tube, just with the R143's I rap it at the secound timer going to the city and drop it off at about 41mph untill the Thrird timer clears and thene rap it again.
Robert
Ok, good. Now what happens when one of those timers fails to clear for some reason? You might be going downtown, or you'll be shitting in your pants for the next few days wondering if the techies are going to download your incident and bang it in.
6 weeks ago when I was working the L, the third timer in the Manhattan-bound tube was not clearing at all. Four T/O's called themselves in because they had overrun the signal. All of them were operating R143's.
Personally, I'm trying to avoid the 143's for two reasons. One because I don't want anything to do with those trains, and two because Canarsie isn't really a convenient terminal for me to report to. Bottom line is that those trains are trouble waiting to happen for the crews.
"Personally, I'm trying to avoid the 143's for two reasons. One because I don't want anything to do with those trains, and two because Canarsie isn't really a convenient terminal for me to report to. Bottom line is that those trains are trouble waiting to happen for the crews."
Event recorders are going to be a fact of life on all rail transit modes, so why try so hard to avoid them?
If you operate an R32 "by the book" will your superiors treat you differently than if you operate an R143 "by the book?" Granted, the R32 may not record exactly what you did, when you do it, but don't supervisors you don't get along with already have plenty of ways to nail you?
Since I don't work in transit, I know there are many subtle conflicts which happen all the time (in my profession too, believe me) that I cannot articulate here (because I don't know them. But I know they exist, and they obviously bother you.
On a different vein: Is it possible the R143's event recorders and controls could be used by management and the TWU to create better crews? With all that instant feedback, train crews can learn faster and in more detail what they are doing and how to do it better.
Sort of like when Navy pilots go through Top Gun training and every move is recorded.
In medicine, many doctors are resisting the use of electronic patient records because they facilitate quick collection of statistics which can show up some incompetent doctors for who they are.
But that's partly why I advocate for these systems. The bigger part, though, is how much you can learn from them.
Let the TA get these trains to work correctly before trying to "create better crews". I heard on the radio last week that a #6 train was indicating a BIE at the T/O's position, only problem he was doing 35mph into a station.
Wow! That's some bug. Now, how about showing 55mph when the train is standing at the station with the doors open? :0)
"Let the TA get these trains to work correctly before trying to "create better crews". "
The two are not mutually exclusive, and one need not come at the expense of the other. They are two legs on the same body - can't run with one or the other missing.
These new trains hold the promise of pushing the crews to perform better - but management and the union leadership need to approach thm that way.
How can you make me a better T/O with equipment that does not work properly?
All the TA does is teach you how to move the damn thing because they don't even know what these trains can and can't do.
>>>>>>>>>If you operate an R32 "by the book" will your superiors treat you differently than if you operate an R143 "by the book?" Granted, the R32 may not record exactly what you did, when you do it, but don't supervisors you don't get along with already have plenty of ways to nail you?
Fortunately, I don't have any supervisors that I feel ill will towards. They ask me to do something, and I do it. I don't need to make my own job more difficult by making their job more difficult in return.
I do have to admit that I'm a bit "concerned" with these new trains, but like you said sooner or later I'll have to deal with it. But my main message to my fellow crews is below.
BOTTOM LINE is that ANY T/O or C/R who operates a train (especially a 142/142A/143) needs to operate by the book. No rapid door closings, no cheating with the door enabler, no closing the doors before the automated "stand clear" announcement has a chance to finish. Doing so could result in a suspension if you're caught. And God forbid, don't let there be a preventable incident. It's "fast" operation that has resulted in 5 trippers on the L and 3 trippers on the #4 thanks to shaving the running time.
"no closing the doors before the automated "stand clear" announcement has a chance to finish. "
Clearly, the message needs to be shortened, and perhaps clarified, something like: "42nd Street: Grand Central Station. This is the Number 6 Train to Pelham Bay Park. Watch the Closing Doors"
[Close the doors and GO!]
Then enroute: "This is the Number Six Traian to Pelham Bay Park. The next Station is ....... change for the ... ... and ..."
The next stop must be announced before the doors close. If nothing else is announced, announce the next stop.
"The next stop must be announced before the doors close."
The arnines were better. People *knew* that the train was going *somewhere* and the *knew* that the doors would be closing.
Heh. And people waiting for the golden throat to tell them what they've won would have been waiting one heck of a long time for the announcement. Ah, for the days when people paid attention to what they were doing and where they were going. Only announcements you'd get (if any) came from OUTSIDE the car. :)
I think the stations can be announced entirely en route. The only think that needs to be announced in the station is what train it is and where it's going. Example:
(While entering the station) "42 Street-Grand Central. Change here for the number 7 train and the 42 Street Shuttle."
(Doors open) "This is a number 6 train to Pelham Bay Park. Stand clear of the doors." (Doors Close)
(Upon leaving the station) "The next station is 51 Street. Change here for the E and V trains."
I favor announcing en-route and upon departure, as the train approaches and leaves the station. In fact, I remember this style of announcement being much more prevalent some years ago (80s, 90s) than it is today. I am curious as to what the reasoning is behind the rule that the train must be stationary whilst the announcements are made. Maybe it has to do with the pointing-to-the-board requirement.
wayne
Fair enough.
>>> With all that instant feedback, train crews can learn faster and in more detail what they are doing and how to do it better. <<<
Yet the biggest area of performance recording, the commercial airplane black boxes cannot be used unless there is an accident.
I also remember forty years ago seeing speed recording devices in Greyhound buses. They did not last long, probably because of an over all slowdown of the buses by drivers playing CYA.
Tom
Very true - though they could be used that way.
Actually, you'd want two sets (like having two odometers). One set is sealed, and only the NTSB can touch it. The other the airline can review with its pilots on whatever schedule is good for training.
>>> The other the airline can review with its pilots on whatever schedule is good for training. <<<
That is what the pilots through their unions would not allow.
Tom
That's a shame. Top Gun training is a real-time and much more expensive version of this.
Both management and unions would be responsible for obstructing this. The adversarial relationship doesn't help any.
Two hidden 'flight data recorders' reside in each R142 A car that do a continuous half hour loop. System has a more timely recording...lasts for days. BIE the trainset and onsite RCIs can DL the history...much more is available like propulsion energy, brake cylinder, brake pipe and the like in a FlashCard DL. There are too many games that can be played for a few free hours of lay-up and TWU does NOT balk...passenger and system safety is first priority!!! Few on this board know or understand what havoc a T/O can do with a crayon on the old trainsets....and those who do know WE can find out during special inspections. Problem TWU has is with T/Os cited when computer malfunctions/TTs take train out of RTO and we find nothing wrong. One year on the job...twenty four to go...I'll be 73. 73's de WB2SGT.
I like learning about New Tech. :-)
So do I. Sad part is that what I HAVE LEARNED IS SELF TAUGHT...when I was given the three day introduction to new Tech R142s, I knew far more than our instructor whom I met in PS248 SubSchool. Switching over to East 180th, I've been away from the practical since doing Redbirds and missed a lot. I like to share but must be careful about NYCTA policy...my technical posts never disclose sensitive materiels...none of my posts ever open 'cans of worms' and I do my best to explain. My little group...engineers and engineering technicians...balk at the lack of information access to learn with, to work with and to do our work. We are older, we were hired for our extensive outside experience and we're relegated to changing out brakes and oil. The union hates us. Soon, the next class of Car Inspectors will be on the job. I'll have to break in a few on the Redbirds...they will hate the work and probably not be too happy with me despite my efforts. What they will not know for so very long is that learning Redbird systems may be dirty and nasty but every system experienced and learned is fully automated in New Tech...if you can do a Redbird, you can do any trainset. Even TrainDudes giant IND units. CI Peter
Isn't the TA's cheapness with training, dangerous?
Normally, we would assume it is cheapness but my aunt pointed out to me a year ago that there is an industry standard that accepts training by working with someone 'experienced.' If that person is not up to par, has no interest in imparting wisdom or is just frankly annoyed, you get a new employee at the same rate of pay as everyone else in Civil Service. The new employee never gets assigned to any serious technical work, walks around with hands-in-pockets all day only to be called up for the simplest tasks, has difficulty communicating and earns 'lack of respect.' He might be the nicest guy you ever met and you eat your heart out that he has seniority over you and always calls you up for a 'quick bail out.' TA was not 'cheap' in this matter...cost big money...a lesson was learned and corrected appropriately. The internet was my first source of information...you can print books out on transportation, railway signalling and motor systems. CI Peter
A crayon? Fill me in. My curiosity is piqued.
Got me curious too ... but he won't tell.
I cannot post it in public...ex T/O gave me the info. So, where am I?
Propulsion 104, maintainance of the MCC. GE and Westinghouse MCCs use a batch of silver contacts to DC communicate with the group box.
During inspection of propulsion, it is very important to clean all contacts and not to use the NYCTA approved non-conductive abrasive files as they may leave a particle of abrasive that seperates the contact surfaces. Read into that...a particle of abrasive that seperates the contacts. Crayon...wax...non conductive materiel that seperates electrical conduction. I cannot post in public the procedure and incidence. 'Hello, calling control, my trainset will not engage second point of power.' 'I need time off...I need a McBagget.' 'Send me a RCI...I'm hungry...I'm thirsty...I'm big and fat and need a toilet.' 'I ate my crayon.' AND don't any of you TWU maggots lay into me unless you want the leading edge of a shoe paddle. Did I spill the beans? CI Peter
I thought CI Peter's reference to crayons had something to do with covering strike marks on a trip cock. Carry a white crayon with you to cover the yellow strike mark a stop arm will leave on your train's trip cock.
But CI Peter's messages have become harder for me to understand lately. Very criptic. In one message, he referred to women as "wimen", which made me feel like I was reading the letter Berkowitz sent to the Post over 25 years ago.
>>>>>>>But CI Peter's messages have become harder for me to understand lately. Very criptic. In one message, he referred to women as "wimen", which made me feel like I was reading the letter Berkowitz sent to the Post over 25 years ago.
Well, unfortunately CI Peter has a problem with spelling. It's quite obvious that you should spell it "wimmin".
As far as being cryptic, well that's our problem. Like the post where Peter explained the crayon situation. I read it 5 times and still cannot decipher it. But it's not Peter's fault. He posted the answer, but we're just not bright enough to understand it.
-Zman (aka "Dim Bulb")
I understand! I wonder how a T/O would get there and use the crayon... Sounds dangerous.
Z ... I'll answer the mystery meat for you, but ONLY in email. They KNOW the trick and anybody that plays it will hit the street. But if you're curious, I'll explain it to ya since Peter CAN'T ...
I can spell and speak English, comm in RTTY on 100 WPM circuits and though I'm a little rusty, comm 20+ WPM in Morse Code. I have worked in electronics communications for over twenty five years, got used to no social life as there were no female equivalents about...got this work in TA I'm so happy about...hear about female Car Inspectors and the TWO I have met are 'minority representatives' that NEVER have a trace of dirt upon their bodies! Work far fewer hours than in my past employment...still looking forward to a NEW social life. Little interest in CTAs......'Where be de wimmen Car Inspectors???' Maybe they are in hiding to keep their pretty hands clean???
As for the 'crayon issue,' I cannot spell out the details over internet. What I can do is reinterate that the parafin carrier in the crayon is an insulator and when bonded to silver alloy contacts prevents the transmission of DC control signals. Again, such a trainset TTd can be identified by someone with a little experience and the T/O will get written up after inspection. CI Peter
Most run up on those timers in the tube. If it decides not to clear, there is not way for you stop without getting tripped. If it is an R143, it is now on the event recorder. You don't know if there is a train in front of you or a track circuit failure if it doesn't clear. These are not one shot timers (lunar white light or yellow S) ones. I really think you guys are crazy operating like that. If I were a TSS over there, I would give you guys hell over it. Sure it says 50 MPH, but you have to be able to stop if a signal does not clear!
it will become a trained responce over time to avoid sticking ones body into the doors.
Right now most people know the t/o will reopen the doors. Let the get hit a few times they wont hold the doors anymore
I am only speculating as I am not qualified on the R143. Perhaps the reason why the doors slam harder on local recycle is to try to kick out the object obstructing the door or since the "male and female" sides of the door rubber have to make up perfectly to get indication, sometimes they just don't if the doors do not slam against each other. Of course, as computerised as these cars are, all the door knows is that it isn't closing properly. It doesn't "know" if someone is holding the door or not! Sure, I would like to see the doors slam to "teach someone a lesson", but I agree that if a customer claims injury of being struck by a closing door, if he/she is holding it or not, it is the conductors ass that will fry as a result. He/she has to go downtown to piss in the cup, visit the crack TA medical staff, then get punished with platform work while the investigation moves forward at the TA bureaucratic snails pace.
Uhhhhhhh Mr. Rob.....N/E Train Operator, when we worked together on the L, I DIDN'T USE THE RECYCLE, and we had heavy loads, but we didn't stay long in ANY station, and if I am not mistaken we worked together during the rush hour.....we made way just fine, actually getting to Canarsie on time. As I stated in an earlier post, I suggest not using the recycle. I make out well on the R-143 without using it. People get off my train when I got the R-143 smiling at me (believe it or not), not fussing about being smashed beyond recognition with the doors!! :-)
Ya we did work together on a Friday. Rebember I can't see if you are using "local recycle" or not. All I hear is the bell keep going off from the different zone close, so i did not know that. Be yes at lest you did keep going. My C/R on Saturday dose not keep us going, we just sit inside the station and wait for everyone. Hope to work with you again, you are been one of the better ones that I have work with on Thursday and Friday on the L.
Robert
One of the things I enjoyed in my day when I had a conductor that could NOT "beat the clock" was telling my TMO - "ask him why we were late." :)
Moving up to the lead car has a few advantages sometimes. Heh.
"Beat the Clock" is what I do best.
Yeah, well YOU beat it with a frigging BASEBALL BAT! :)
As a former conductor, my hat REMAINS off to your ability to jiggle them doors ... and have SMILES on the "diddled" ... if there was such as thing as TSS's for conductors (yeah, I realize the morons claim to know the job) then you'd be primary candidate for management of same. Alas, all conductors get is this cheezy pair of 3D glasses. Heh.
Coming up to Branford this coming Sunday to ride an Arnine with Bingbong and I? I'll throw the rotary and let you close up if you're game. We're going to give our "guests" on the Arnine the RIDE FROM HELL just for historical purposes ... wanna keep them from amassing on the bulkheads? :)
For anyone ELSE interested, details on the events this COMING Sunday, STeve 8th Ave Exp (his birthday) and Selkirk and his railfoamer hunny ABUSING an Arnine can be found here ... would LOVE to give you a BIE concussion ... heh.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
Scroll down to October 13, 2002, JOIN Branford as a member and pony up some cash for the museum, and Unca Selkirk AND OTHERS will take you for a ride on the mighty Arnine ... can't do THAT on the damned N train! Come, kibbitz, talk about "subtalk LIVE" ... warm, breathing flesh (including Selkirk, BMTman, Lou, Sparky and many more) beats the crap out of posting to an internet site ... and we're FUN! Been with these folks personally and I can attest that most are better than SEX. And ya get to do it in a subway car that won't run THESE DAYS.
Bingbong and I have rented the car LATER in the day for ourselves. It may be rockin', but it won't be MOVIN' ... word. :)
I don't know if I be able to make it. I have to be at work for 5PM.
Yipe ... damned RDO's. I'll rock some doors in your memory then. Maybe Unca Lou will let me dump some geese. :)
Blessing the cab again, I see.:) Will the compressors be on then?
Heh. Dunno ... will we be requiring air for that? :)
D4s will cut in at 130 psi....I'll make a special overload blessing beyond 150 psi. Just don't make me wait undercar for the moisture blowout....I hate getting oily/wet. Just not the same as Saint Francis 'Blessing of the animals...Holy Water.' Holy sh tt Batman...this water stinks. CI Peter
Does the black box on the r142/r143 series cars record dor activity.
That would be a nice way for management to monitor the activity of conductors and also evaluate the effectiveness of the recycle feature
What is Local Recycle?
When an object is stuck in a trainset door and the train operator does not receive 'indication' the trainset will not move. On my old Redbirds, the conductor looks out his window to observe which half of the trainset has a door that is not closing (by the carbody lights) and will continously 'jog' all the doors until indication or make an announcement to the maggots to stop holding the doors. Train does not go until all doors are secured....jogging operates ALL doors on that side/half of the trainset. New Tech is much better....trainset senses blocked door/doors. Local recycle jogs only the doors obstructed....in the trainset half....only the obstructed doors jog....all others remain closed and secure so everyoe else reamains secured so that the trainset operates RTO schedules. That's the best simple explanation I can give...I do so many inspections and special work to 95%....posters can chew me out but none of them can come close to my work level. Redbirds and R142s...old and new...nothing in between. TrainDude says when I get older and better I should go to the big trains...Ten car IRT trainsets are two city blocks long and I threaten supervision with bringing in my longboard scooter. Can't imagine 'troubles' on a trainset 750 feet in legnth. CI Peter
TransiTALK which had been down for several months has been making a return to the next since August.
Today re-premiered the MTA NYC Subway Gallery which has all new photos and just a dusting of photos from the old TransiTALK.
www.transitalk.org
Peep, Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
Take a gander at this guy. "The Luckiest Man in the Universe".http://www.backwash.com/content_frame.php?id=4a2c012ea8f3437216510efe8ad949b3
Amazing! Yet another example of 'Stupid Human Tricks'.
>>> "The Luckiest Man in the Universe" <<<
He gives a new meaning to "Mind the gap."
Tom
>>> "The Luckiest Man in the Universe" <<< >
He gives a new meaning to "Mind the gap."
The gap, in this case, being between this rocket scientist's ears. For the good of the gene pool, I hope this cretin hasn't bred. I also suspect a certain Mr. Darwin has his "evolver" pointed in Laughing Boy's general direction.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
I know Romford station very well (I was there about a week ago) The rolling stock was prabably a Class 312 electric unit. That guy was very lucky as the 312's are generlly only used on rush hour services.
Simon
Swindon UK
Many will forget WTC 911..truly a Lords miracle that so many walked away almost unscathed. I remember 'The Luckiest Man in Iraq' from CNN with the B/W videos of a 'smart bomb' targeted upon a bridge that managed to drive off just before the bridge was turned into rubble.
September 17th CI class was lucky too. CI Peter
The irony:
"If it had been one of our modern trains he would certainly have been killed."
Apparently, Great Britain has greater tolerances for spacing between track and platform than the United States does. Had this happened here, the only way the guy would have lives is if it had been a platform on the B Division with a No. 7 train out of service and headed for Coney Island passing by.
Apparently, Great Britain has greater tolerances for spacing between track and platform than the United States does. Had this happened here, the only way the guy would have lives is if it had been a platform on the B Division with a No. 7 train out of service and headed for Coney Island passing by.
Or possibly an LIRR train on Track One at Atlantic Avenue.
I have heard of a toddler who survived being run over by a slow moving train. He was on the tracks, squarely between the running rails. The train was moving relatively slowly; the conductor (or brakeman?) climbed out of the locomotive cab, reached down and pushed the child's head flat onto the tracks just before the locomotive ran over him. The child emerged unscathed.
Many people have survived in the gap b/t the locomotive and the ties.
Wow. Now I know I'll have nightmares tonight. I never thought that was even possible to survive. What was this BUTTHEAD thinking?
What was this BUTTHEAD thinking?
He wasn't... that's the point :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"....dropped muh beer...."
-Hank
Was a heavy overhaul performed on the R62/A's, or is one planned for the near future? I was just wondering since they are in pretty rough shape.
Thanks in advance!
The R-62s and R-62As have never received a GOH (General OverHaul), and it is unlikely that they ever will since for the past ten years or so NYCT has used SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Under SMS, components are overhauled or replaced based on life cycle.
By the way, what does "rough shape" mean? The cars run very well and reliably. Perhaps the author is referring to cosmetic condition -- in my opinion, the cars do LOOK worse for wear; the stainless steel interior walls were intended to make graffiti easy to remove, but the vandals just switched to scratching, which is easy to apply and more permanent.
David
Thanks David! And you did interpret 'rough shape' correctly.
Cosmetically many of the R-62s do look a little worse for the wear, but when they're cleaned up they still look pretty good considering. When the "Redbirds" were the same age as the R-62s they looked much worse with dirt and graffiti all over the cars. By comparision the "Redbirds" when they were 15 years old looked like basket cases, by contrast the R-62s look like they have plenty of years left ahead of them.
#3 West End Jeff
Probably because they were better built. I mean, Carbon Steel isn't exactly a model use for building anymore.
Part of the reason the 'birds looked so gawdawful when they were 15 years old was because that was at the height of the MTA's neglegence period for the subways in general. Not only did all the IRT trains look awful, but the R-32, 38, 40 and 42 cars (espeically the R-42s) were in horrid shape as well by the end of the 70s.
Had the R-62s been delievered to the system in 1968 instead of 1985, they would have suffered the same graffiti and deferred maintenace fate as the Redbirds during that period, minus the rusting problems.
I was thinking, would you consider the 5 car groupings of R62/62A a kind of overhaul since some components were removed?
Not onlt did the MTA neglect to maintain the subway cars during the 1970s they also neglected the stations too so that they looked like hell until they finally started to clean them up starting in the mid-1980s. During those thankless years of neglect, brand new subway cars would look like hell in short order. As you might recall, trains of R-44s and 46s would sometimes have graffiti scrawled on them before they even entered revenue service for the first time. That was the low point for the New York City subway system. Now it is many times better.
#3 West End Jeff
What transit oxymorons can you think of that makes no sense? Like having a word that combines say two modes that are not combinable?
e.g.
AirTrain
AirBus
RailRoad
AirShip
HorseCart
RoadRailer
Can people think of any more?
Rapid Transit
Preventive Maintainence
avid
Preventive Maintainence
My favorite is "deferred maintenance."
Rush Hour
avid
Bus Rapid Transit
Especially in New York. Leisurely Transit is more like it.
ROTFL
Lightrail, Flood Car, Work Train, Storm Door, anti-climber
light rail works, but none of the others
Vancouver B.C.'s Skytrain...especially when it is underground downtown.
Elevated Subway
open cut station
Explain yourself, that is not an oxymoron.
>>> that is not an oxymoron <<<
Don't sweat it! Most of the examples in this thread, including those in the original post do not fit the definition of an oxymoron (a combination of contradictory or incongruous words such as "cruel kindness"). Therefore a term like "rapid transit" is not in itself an oxymoron, but some who are dissatisfied with the speed of the "A" division subway might consider "Interborough Rapid Transit" to be an oxymoron.
Tom
Is that where you go to the station with an open cut on your hand and the token clerk refuses to give you a Band-Aid?
Completed Second Ave. Subway
Completed Second Ave. Subway
It may cease to be an oxymoron some day. Check back in, oh, 100 years or so.
Yeah we'll have a 2nd Ave subway clinking along in 100 years, and in Japan they'll have personalized flying machines for every man, woman and child that goes 250 mph and gets its power from ordinary seawater...
skip-stop
Reliable 2 and 5 service.
make that
Reliable Anything
How about the R-142 announcement: 'We are sorry for the unavoidable delay'....as if there is an avoidable delay. ;)
That is a transit redundency... like "last and final stop".
AEM7
IND (Independent) of what? Not of the other two divisions. Maybe back in the 1930's that was true.
BMT Astoria (Queens) line and BMT Jamaica Line.
Manhattan Bridge repaired.
Heard on Newsradio 88 this morning, Tom Kaminski said, "I've been in the traffic reporting business for 20 years now, and the Manhattan Bridge was under construction when I started working. It's STILL under construction!"
--Mark
They keep repairing and repairing like an Energizer bunny.
Chaohwa
At least the bunny keeps beating his drum.
Things have been insanely busy on this end, and didn't get a chance to sit down with Thursday's Times Union until last night, spotted this "Bruno's CDTA geniuses strike AGAIN!" This is ANOTHER brand new shrine train station, this time instead of Rensselaer, it's SARATOGA that gets a brand new shrine at Amtrak's expense (after all, Amtrak's ROLLING in cash) ...
But it gets better ... as part of this NEW project, NEW station, the existing one will be torn down FIRST (I suppose to minimize Gunn's complaints) and will be replaced with a genuine upstate New York DOUBLEWIDE TRAILER made in Baltimore ...
Story here, no subscription required ... read it and weep. Gotta admire the brass stones of politicos that have already have nothing to fear from the voters:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=58640&category=REGION&newsdate=10/3/2002
Here we go AGAIN ... same cast of characters ...
Meanwhile, we REALLY need some working busses, but CDTA will have none of that. Shows ya what happens when CROOKS run unopposed ...
I got of the train in Saratoga once. No one else did. I looked for a cab. None bothered to show up. I had to walk all the way to town.
Not at all uncommon. Folks arrive at Saratoga either in a limousine or a bus. Now, building a PALACE in Rensselaer may or may not have been justified (getting in and out of there takes FOREVER now compared to get off the train and go as before) but if you check the passenger and use statistics for Saratoga, a double-wide TRAILER is more facility than will ever be USED.
But, it's Joe Bruno's NYS Senate district and US Representative John "let's cut government spending so we can cut taxes" Sweeney's district and THIS monument is likely to become the John Sweeney Amtrak Train station because having TWO Joe Bruno stations so close would confuse train crews. :)
New York's stupidity on locating rail stations goes back a while, as anyone who attmpted to use mass transit to board an Amtrak train in Syracuse up until about a decade ago will attest. And since I tried, I'm attesting:
When the state realigned the rail line in order to build I-690, they relocated the station from its downtown Erie Blvd. site (giving the station itself to Greyhound and Trailways), and put it in Renssalear -- no strike that, they relocated it in East Syracuse, but it felt like it was in Renssalear if you tried to take a Centro bus out to the station from downtown. The station itself was right near the I-481 overpass on N.Y. 298 and as a result, you had to endure an excruciatingly s-l-o-w ride out from downtown along James Street, since the station had as much justification as a "Syracuse" stop serving the whole commuinty as New Carrollton on the Amtrak main line does to being the main Washington, D.C. station (and at least you can take Orange line from downtown D.C. out there).
The East Syracuse station itself was slightly bigger than a doublewide, but not much, and of course, the Centro schedules bore absolutely no relationship to the train timetables. Fortunately, the city and state saw the light and relocated the Amtrak station on the north side of downtown (and even relocated Greyhound to the same place for better connections) when the Carousel Center went up.
Wish there was a safe place to stop the car and take a picture of the old Erie Blvd. station platform. It's right next to the offramp from I-690 to northbound I-81. There are life-sized black silhouettes of people standing on the platform, waiting for a train that will never arrive.
Took some pictures of the new Syracuse Amtrak station yesterday - I'll post them once I get the film developed.
A reminder that the Greenberg Train Show is being held at Hofstra University's Physical Fitness Center, Hempstead Turnpike, Hempstead LI.
The dates are Sat. Oct. 5th and Sunday 6th 2002.
Hours are 10:00AM - 4:00PM Sat. and Sun.
Admission is $7 adults, $2 children 6-12, Scouts in uniform addmitted FREE. Admission is good for BOTH days.
For info, call (410) 795-7447 or go to the web at www.greenbergshows.com
I went there today. Didn't see any familiar Subtalkers, but did buy the 2003 Subway Calendar printed by Newkirk Images. Nice job, Bill.
I was there as well from 1-3 pm today. I was the 1 that was wearing the #7 Manhattan to Queens baseball cap. Buses, trains, cars, trucks, planes, army equipment, you name it they had it. I sure hope that this show comes back again to NYC very soon after tomorrow-best show I've been to yet.
Only bought 3 subway images there.
Did anyone catch the R36 Bluebirds there-9750-9751? $339-350. Expensive but impressive!
A good day all around indeed!!!
#9751 7 Flushing Local
Greenberg usually has a show at Hofstra around this time each year. They also have a show at SUNY-Stony Brook every March. Check their website for the 2003 dates.
They used to have a fall and spring show within two weeks of each other at each school but I figure that the proximity of both schools and dates were counter-productive. I live in between both schools and would do four shows a year.
Hey, Bob! I was there -- briefly -- just about 3:30 pm and stayed till closing. I ran into Jack LaRossa (Image Replicas). He had a BEATUTIFUL display model of his soon-to-be-released A-B Standards. I also picked up a copy of ElectricLines from him that I was missing from my collection.
I stopped by on the layout area of the show (toward the back of the room) where I said 'hi' to the Long Island Traction Club group (I know one of their members, Bob P., the retired NYC cop who used to volunteer at the Transit Museum).
Actually, my day ended up being free so I decided to go to the Greenberg Show...I was originally supposed to be on a Transit Museum-sponsored LIRR trip to Greenport & Riverhead, but due to a BIE on the #2 yesterday morning -- right outside 14th Street -- I was late and missed the train by five minutes!(@$&%#). So, I used the day for errands....and dropping in on the Greenberg Show.
Me and the the wife were there from about 1PM to 3PM. I looked at the trains while she looked at the Dollhouses and miniatures.
I Loved those (Railking? MTH?) R-36 World's Fair trains, which I saw for the first time. Unfortunately. I have N gauge and G guage, with nothing in-between.
BY the way, If any of you Subtalkers would like to buy a bunch of N or G scale stuff - send me an email.
Seems that I have to "refresh" every time I want to post to Subtalk because when I first load in a particular post, my info (handle/password) is missing. Anyone else having this problem, or is it my pathetically obsolete WebTV box?
No problems here... three boxes running different versions of Mac OS and different versions of Netscape (no Netscape 7 though - beware of that!) and no problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WebTV has some problems with cookies since the big "MSN-TV" changeover. Microsoft believes that if a site doesn't sign on to Microsoft PASSPORT then they don't need to store the cookies as an "inducement" to Unca Dave P to come on over to the "dark side" and stop being a Unix "evil-doer" ... :)
No such problem here with Sony W-200 box.
Hmmm, I have the same exact type of box. Perhaps my info is getting screwed up because I post from 2 different locations (with my WebTV and my PC).
Unless you change your password between uses, it shouldn't matter if you post at two places.
I do too. My Joisey URL is recognised but my NooYawk is not.
This may sound silly but I had a similar problem. In the end it was the date on my PC that was wrong. I dont know if Web TV has a date setting but it may be worth checking
Simon
Swindon UK
I had to get from Pacific to 77 on the 4th Ave line. {I am well versed with the 9/8 changes and know where everything is SUPPOSED to go.} Waiting for an R, it never came. An N to 86th was waiting on the express track, and a W came and went. With the N ready to go and no R, I decided to take the N, it was an R40M. Fast express ride to 25th, crossed over to local at 36th. I knew why---laid up R trains on the Southbound exp track from 36 to 59. Unfortunately, the signage on the express track at 36th say N express to 86th, all times. No mention of the train coming in on the other track at all. The train still skipped 45 and 53 even though it was on the local track and went right to 59. The signage there was on the express track, N train all times, on the local track, R train all times. Nothing else, even though the N was on the local track. And for some reason the line seemed more messed up than it was supposed to be. At 36th, my N waited and waited. At 59th I had to let my N and the N behind it go by before my R came. Coming back, the express N waited and waited at 36th again before going to Pacific. The R-32s have 36th St as the last stop and this was confusing people. Many put one leg in the train and one leg on the platform until they knew what was what. More explicit, CORRECT signage is seriously needed on this line.
The important thing is that all the trains are going to where the signs say they are. The track they come in on is irrelevant since people should and generally do look at all incoming trains. Looking at trains on both tracks also helps for the unexpected, like if a train is temporarily rerouted over the other track due to broken train or broken rail.
You can't sign every track for every possible combination in changed service. That would be even more confusion.
But this is going to be regular, not special.
Is there anywhere in the New York Subway system a line more pathetic and dull that the 4th Avenue Local? It is slower than sin, stays underground the whole time and offers nothing in the way of enjoyment unless you are looking for some rats in the Montague Tunnel. I hated that line when I was a kid. We would take it at Queens Plaza, which was its only outside stop before being sent to Astoria in 1949. From there it was a tedious five stops that never seemed to get there until we could disembark at 42nd Street and wait for the great Sea Beach that would take us express through Manhattan and Brooklyn to grandma's house or Coney Island. The only other fly in the ointment was on the way back we had to get back on to that shit train for five grueling stops home.
But this isn't a reroute. On weekends, all N, R, and W trains are on the local tracks at 36th -- the W because it runs local between 36th and Pacific, and the N because of laid-up R trains on the express tracks.
what time was this? the N departs Pacific St on the weekends from the express track and runs express to 59th St. then local to 86th St.Of course if there isnt any space to lay up anymore trains on the QB Line express track after Continental Av. then the best place to lay up some R trains would be on the 4th Av. express track.Maybe the R was delayed or something that's why it took a long time to show up.
Believe me,that's nothing new.It happens several times.If the signs say a train will stop on that track all times it will unless something else happens that it can't.And I guess the R32's dont have Pacific St on the rollsigns so 36th St had to be used.Strange though,since 9/8,all weekend N's were supposed to be R68/68A OPTO. So why the heck was there an R32 and 40M on the N? the R68's DO have Pacific St. on the rollsigns.So it would make sense that all weekend N's should be R68's so that people won't be confused like they were.
On the first day of Brooklyn-only N service, I saw R40's and R32's with "Shuttle" as the northern terminal.
They still have that on the R40Ms. For some reason R32s had 36th St.
"If the signs say a train will stop on that track all times it will unless something else happens that it can't"
Apparently, you haven't seen this website.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/absurd/index.html
"So it would make sense that all weekend N's should be R68's so that people won't be confused like they were."
Well, I saw ZERO R68s or R68As on the N that entire day.
My favorite 4th Ave/Brighton line signage right now is the small strip signs installed on the station pillars in Union Sq. 14th St. (and possibly others). It seems that Brooklyn has annexed a good portion of Lower Manhattan. How this got beyond so many people and actually got printed, framed and installed all over the Union Sq. 14th St. station without flags going out is beyond me. LMAO.
I vaguely remember some kinda grade time signals on the Blue Line under the harbor on the way to the airport. Can anyone supply details?
The Blue is loaded with timers almost all over the line. The ones under the harbor heading eastbound are the most fun to run as they clear at about 38-39 mph.
Vandal shield is already on the new cars R-142/142A, R-143, And the upcoming R-160. Why didn't the MTA come up with this idea in the late 80's and why isn't it on the older cars today?
What is it?
the Mylar on the windows. its known as vandalshield. the stuff that that once it gets scratched or ruined, the window is safe. it is placed back on. its on the R-142,142a,143,160(coming soon), late model buses(the upcoming Orion(Ontario)7cng low floor)
Oh yes, that. I knew that but I didn't know it went under that name. So, is Mylar your standard protection plastic or is it special?
i wouldn't know if it were special or standard, i just know that it takes the scratches for glass and basically reduces vandalism because the vandals are fooled that the glass is repairable and no matter how many times they try to do scratch, their tags won't be there. i guess thats why up to this day on the new trains you don't see any signs of trying to scratch windows.
i guess thats why up to this day on the new trains you don't see any signs of trying to scratch windows.
On the L last week I was on an R-143 (front car, naturally :-)) and it had a few scratchitti'd windows and one or two door panels. Guess they hadn't gotten around to replacing the mylar, if that's what it is.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Wait till the maggots figure out what is what. I want perforated stainless steel panels instead of glass....cut out all HVAC. Freeze in the winter, cook in the summer. New Tech is so inhospidable to passengers...can't even sleep comfortably on the seats! CI Peter
adding on to my post, i also noticed on a downtown six under the windows where you see through to another car, i notice that a vandal had put a deep scaring tag into the formica paneling. knowing that formica can't sustain that level of damage but isn't there a tougher version of formica? also, its a good thing they used white paneling for the new cars except the R-143 because i have seen scrathes on the plastic panels and from far away you can't see it at all. but one thing it can't sustain is fire (its still flame retardant but it shows brown)
Vandal Shield is a proprietary name for a Mylar self adhesive similar to 'cold lamination' of documents. You catch the edge of the scratched Mylar, pull it off like a bandage, examine the glass for traces of adhesive which must be removed with a special razor scraper, you spray the window with distilled water mixed with a minute amount of surfactant, slowly remove the VandalShield backing applying the same solution from a pump sprayer, lay the VandalShield up against the glass and squegee out the water. Stuff is not 100%...there can be defects and TA usually does not allow proper layup of the trainset for proper setting.
Redbirds have a Teflon based paint that resists almost all markers...the R142 trainsets have Formica panels that are 'taggers heaven'.....seating is crap too...etchings are eradicated by four steps of abrasives and buffed with 3M Micropore compound....IF the etchings are not too deep. What is worse is the etchings done into stainless steel pilasters by the doors...TA has not discovered that #60 emery cloth and a steady hand works.
Oil, brakes, windows, doors, interior...blue and yellow lines painted on the track floors...Car Inspectors do everything!!! CI Peter
wow. thats alot of work. but it seems that.....it is vandal resistant because you could apply all that work to older trains and it wouldn't work. the redbird paints have polyurethane. not teflon. and i think they discovered #60 emery cloth because an r 142 that i rode with the "storm doors" had eched tag in the door (6418) and when i rode the car again a year later it was gone.
Engineering is just discovering emery and crocus cloth...I've used the materiels for years in metal maintainance and gunsmithing. If it is a door panel really bad....it gets replaced by the vendors but the time is coming when vendors will be gone. Deep etchings cannot be eradicated by casual abrasive use. CI Peter
Because scratchitti wasn't a problem until the mid 1990's.
-Hank
It may not have become a major problem until the mid '90's, but I remember the windows being scratched on the R42's when they were first coming back rebuilt around 1989 and early 90's. The R68's were also severely scratched already in the very early 90's
Once the MTA fixed the trains so that they could not be painted... the vandals found out that they could scratch the windows. Before that there was no reason to try.
Elias
That's exactly what it is. I remember being on a J train when the R42's were first coming back (hey, that's when I was more excited about getting a freshly refurbished R42, than a red R30!). I was so pissed when a group of kids were scratching the windows on that train that day. It's one of the first times I saw the windows scratched. The R16's, R27-30's, etc always looked bad and were filthy, but at least the windows were clear (well, at least when they weren't spraypainted).
In case anyone is interested there is a show on the San Francisco cable cars on the History Channel RIGHT NOW!! It started at 7:00.
>>In case anyone is interested there is a show on the San Francisco cable cars on the History Channel RIGHT NOW!! It started at 7:00.<<
Is that the "Hands On" series I saw on the History Channel ?... If so, there was one episode with the Boston subway on it a couple of weeks ago. The narrator of the show operated a Red Line subway train under supervision. Tonight, the narrator climbed aboard a highway line painting truck and painted a double yellow line on section of the old Route 66. I guess the show makes the narrator a working part of the show and not just asking questions.
Bill "Newkirk"
In case anyone is interested there is a show on the San Francisco cable cars on the History Channel RIGHT NOW!! It started at 7:00.
Watch for Ron Hazelton's inexperienced braking put a major and NOISY flat spot on the weels of the car he's controlling. Reminded me of the 6th Ave shuttle, circa fall 1986.
The Boston T episode of HoH was on 2 weeks ago. I'm hoping they repeat the episode where he was here in NYC. He was given permission to operate a train!
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Would the MTA wil provide new train on the
A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,N,Q,R,W,S,V,Z,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9
new trains will come to the A,C,E,J,L*,M,N,Q,Z,4*,5*. They are already on the 2 and 6 lines.
* means that these lines has a few and more are coming monthly
A,C,E,J,M,Z,N,Q will get the the R160 cars with the J,M,Z getting the 4 car sets[480 ft cars],and the A,C,E,N and Q get the 5 car sets. The L and M has the 143's,2/5 the 142,and the 4/6 the 142a's.....
and in the near the future the 3 will also be all 142's when all of the cars that are used on the 3 currently,are sent to the 7 so that the 7 will be 100% R62A.And currently R143's operate on the M during the weekend as shuttle service.And the A,C will be the first 2 lines to recieve the R160's.
None of that is in stone, though some parts are more likely than others.
David
This information,I pulled from the T.A's own web site,ALONG with some other things. The R160 cars will arrive in two types... 4 car sets for EASTERN DIVISION LINES out of EAST NEW YORK YARDS,and 5 car sets the 8th ave lines out of PITKIN YARDS....other wise J/M/L/Z/A and C. What evers left would most likely go to the N/Q lines form C.I. If Im wrong,then the TA posted misinformation....
2,4,5,6-lines that have/will get R142
3,7- may get R142 later
L,M- lines with R143
J,M,Z- Primary R160
other b-div- Secondary R160
The 7 may not get the R142, due to Third Rail shoe problems between the R142 pick up show and the Third Rail.
-AcelaExpress2005
the 7 will not get R-142's period. the 3 line will not get R-142's period.
Wrong. The 3 will be getting R-142's -- by the time all the R-142's are in, the 3 will have no more R-62A's.
If neither the 3 nor the 7 got R-142's, the 7 wouldn't be able to get rid of its Redbirds.
That's not in stone, either.
David
I thought it was.
What are the other possiblilities? (Redbirds back on the 2? No, I'm afraid that doesn't seem likely.)
Not Redbirds...Hi-Vs!
Just kidding. There's been internal talk of an alternate car assignment, but so far it's just talk. It doesn't affect the Flushing Line -- that much I can say.
David
I'm afraid Hi-V's mean nothing to me. I want my R-33's back on the 2. I'll settle for the 1 or 3 if need be. That's my vote.
What's that, you say? I don't get to vote?
I don't want those Rustbirds back on the 2. I've been waiting for years for them to finally be off the 2 and I'll be damned if I have to see them back. I don't mind if they go on the 3, the 3 doesn't run at night and they can rest for the night if they're on the 3. But no Redbirds back on the 2!
I would think the conversion of the #3 to R142's would be the most feasible scenerio. Current Livonia and past Pelham R62A's combined would be enough to replace every Flushing R36/R33S.
Yes IT IS in stone! The 3 will be 100% R142 when the remaining 150 cars or so are delivered,the 7 will be 100% R62A.I've gone through the books and manuel's and I've seen it all.Also that's gonna happen within the next few years or so is making a connection to Sunnyside Yard so that it will be used as the new subway yard for Queens to relieve Jamaica Yard.
Please provide the names of these documents as well as the names and titles of the authors and the dates the documents were issued.
As to Sunnyside Yard and Jamaica Yard, what do either of these locations have to do with R-142 assignments? In any case, it should be remembered that NYCT has coveted space in Sunnyside Yard since around 1990 and shows no signs of moving there. Last I heard, Amtrak decided it wanted to keep the space NYCT wants...of course, that was before David Gunn took the reins of Amtrak, so that may change, too.
David
unfortuantely my memory sucks like hell,therefore I cannot provide the names or title's of the documents.
With all due respect and not to begin an argument, you are a very opinionated and argumetative young lady. I say that because you state that you can't remember where you got your facts but you expect people to trust your memory about those same facts.
Let me give you a few facts that I can document. I have in front of me the most recent version of a book called "Subway Service Strategy". It was put out by the Senior VP of the Department of Subways, MTA NYCT in March of this year. I doubt that you've seen anything more recent.
In it, it talks about 1,550 R-142 and R-142A cars spread "Over various lines". It (the most recent document published) does not lock the R-142 or R-142A fleets into any specific lines. At no point does it say that the #3 line will be exclusively R-142/R-142A cars nor does it say that the #7 line will be exclusively R-62As
Second: The new Corona Barn will be built to handle R-142 & R-142A subway cars. This is not a fantasy. The new shop will be completed before 2007. At that point, Corona will be able to handle R-142 and R-142A cars. But even before the new shop is completed all routine maintenance on the R-142/R-142A fleet (except HVAC) can be done in the old shop. HVAC can be done in Coney Island. In support of this, let me say that Pelham shop has not been rebuilt and does maintain the R-142As quite well.
Third, you show much about your lack of political savy. Let's see, the Bronx is getting new subway cars. Brooklyn is getting new subway cars. Manhattan is getting new subway cars. What do you think the Queens BP is saying about getting rid of the redbirds only to get someone elses hand-me-downs. When there was talk of moving the R-46s to Brooklyn, Queens BP Claire Schulman was very vocal in her opposition. When the #7 line express service was suspended to permit the Queens Blvd. viaduct to be rebuilt, Ms Schulman held up the construction at a penalty of $20,000 per day to the contractor from the MTA, until the #7 line MDBF was improved. Do you honestly think that a politically entity like the MTA can ignore such intense political pressure.
With all due respect to your age and with consideration for your obvious passion for the subject - there are a few of us here that actually do have some information that you do not have. There are some of us here who actually know what we are talking about. I would suggest you begin to listen a little more - pontificate a little less and drop the arrogance.
TD
I could care less about politics.I say they should mind their business when subway construction needs to be done.If it needs to be done,it needs to be done,no but's,and's or if's.Most of the subway system is either near,at,or over 100 years old so there has to be several spots where part of the track bed or signals need to be fixed or replaced.That part about a $20,000 penalty to the contractor during the Queens Blvd Viaduct reconstruction is a piece of BS.She should've minded her own business and let them do what they were supposed to do.Suspending express service between Queensboro Plz and Woodside-61St. was a small sacrifice for having to rebuild a viaduct that quite frankly,made the way the Franklin Av. Shuttle train stations look like they didnt need a makeover as much as the Viaduct did.
Now politics and any other type of opposition better stay out of the MTA's business of extending the 7 to the Javits Center.I say that was long awaited AND what's also long awaited is the blasted 2nd Av subway.Now THAT really needs to be built.So if the residents along 2nd Av don't like it when the time comes,they can take thier complaints and shove up their behind.That 2nd Av subway is wayyyyyy long overdue.
Easing overcrowding on the Lexington Av 4/5/6 is more important than whatever the 2nd Av. residents have might/will have against it.
Well, it's pretty clear your mind's made up.
The only problem is, peole aren't likely to respond well to that kind of approach...but with time, you'll get the drift.
Your attitude does not serve you well. I don't know what makes you so angry but it's surely not knowledge that makes you so arrogant. Too bad because there is so much you could learn but you'll likely just turn everyone off with your 'rag' attitude.
It's this simple:If something need's to be done,why does somebody have to go and try and make it complicated? Just let the TA workers or the contractors do thier job and that's that.If it need's to be done anyway,why make a federal case out of it? That's what makes me mad.It's as if they're BEGGING for an accident to happen and not giving a damn about it.
Because, it is not as easy as you'd like it to be. Don't you pay attention to any of the posts here? At least 1/2 of the threads touch on politics. Subways are not operated in a vacuum. The MTA is a quasi-city/state agency. It feeds at the public trough. Everyone who has an opinion gets a say in everything the TA does. I could cite one example after another to prove this but you don't seem to want to grasp the concept. Why don't you try to slow down and think things through before you go off into another tirade. Then I'll be happy to discuss this matter with you to whatever extent you wish.
Yo V Train, you need to listen to TrainDude, he is very informative about things in the MTA and 99.9% of the time, he is correct, So Just chill out, because the attitude you have now is drawing SubTalkers away from you instead of helping you.
-AcelaExpress2005
99% correct? - when was I wrong?
Ok 100%, I wasn't trying to make you seem perfect, because nobody in this world is perfect.
-AcelaExpress2005
When you decded not to be a "limp-wristed liberal?"
:0)
And to add to my previous post,I only have one thing to say and that's I absoultely hate politics.It bores me to death.So long as this city is staying as the greatest city in the whole world,I could care less who's the mayor or who the governor is.
Embracing politics is like puckering up and kissing a pig. Agreed. But DO bear in mind that those weasels you're ignoring COUNT on people ignoring them so they can play their games in the shadows. Like it or not, you've got to keep your eye on them as surely as that pickpocket or potential rapist. Seriously. I despise politics and those who play it too. But I've learned over the years to keep a sharp eye peeled on them ... dang! My wallet's missing. :)
forget it,no matter what they do,politics will never get my attention.
Which is precisely why they don't give a crap about you and your views. The polititians know people your age group generally don't care about politics so they won't care about the issues that affect you. They'll worry about the senior citizens who have time to vote and try to win their vote with issues that affect them. Back to trains, just remember there are people who are very well respected in here and have a wealth of information that you might want to pay more attention to more often.
You should really consider having your head extracted from your ass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Lucky for you,I'm gonna let that one slide pal.But next time you're gonna be in big time trouble.
>>> Lucky for you,I'm gonna let that one slide pal.But next time you're gonna be in big time trouble. <<<
LOL. Some of you are going to have to update your killfiles. :-)
Tom
Killfiles are unnecessary. If you ignore them, they leave just as fast.
I hate to say it but,that doesn't work with me.Sorry to disappoint you.
An excellent and fascinating post, Train Dude. Enjoyed reading it.
I do admit to being a little surprised that Quens would be that upset over the prospect of R62 series cars taking over for the Redbirds. After all, the R62s are very handsome cars and are still at least 40 years newer than anything the 7 line has seen before.
Can we assume that Corona's maintenance shop will no longer be a single-type operation? Did they not have an advantage in being single-type?
Ron, the only thing we can count on is that nothing is sure once the politicians get involved. However, you only have to look to recent history to see what I say is true. Aside from the R-32s, R-38s began service in Queens. R-40s began service in Queens. R-42s began service in Queens. R-44s began service in Queens and R-46s began service in Queens.
Claire Schulman has always been very proactive in Queens Transit matters and you'd be suprised how powerful the BPs office can be.
Sadly, however, it seems that the main point of my original post has been lost. It seems that Ms. V Train is unreachable and completely unreasonable. Alas - too bad...
"Ron, the only thing we can count on is that nothing is sure once the politicians get involved. However, you only have to look to recent history to see what I say is true. Aside from the R-32s, R-38s began service in Queens. R-40s began service in Queens. R-42s began service in Queens. R-44s began service in Queens and R-46s began service in Queens."
I never looked at it that way before. You're right. Of course, since Queens has had the least subway service of all the interconnected boroughs (ecluding Staten Island), I suppose the least the TA can do is guarantee them the newest cars (but you can flip the coin and say that's not fair either - well, I will stay neutral on this one and stay out of trouble).
Hey, that's great about the Corona Yards being updated to be able to handle the new hi-tech trains, though I do have a question?
What about the 3rd rail? I mean, even if the R142/A's can be serviced at Corona, that doesn't mean they'll be able to run on the line itself. I remember reading sporiadic posts on here declaring of a test saying that a set failed near the Willets Point stop and had to be pulled back via locomotive.
A set may have failed one time. That does not mean that the #7 line will mot support new-tech cars. After all, the R-36 WF cars operated on the Lex and 7th Ave line and regular R-33s operated on the #7 line. Just assume that one alleged failure was just one failure.
What do you think the Queens BP is saying about getting rid of the redbirds only to get someone elses hand-me-downs... Do you honestly think that a politically entity like the MTA can ignore such intense political pressure.
Ms. Schulman was opposed to the retirement of the World's Fair cars because of their strong association with Queens, and she requested that a car be preserved in Flushing Meadows.
Helen Marshall doesn't seem to care as much.
"Helen Marshall doesn't seem to care as much."
I met Helen Marshall and talked with her before she became Boro Prez. She impressed me as someone who likes to ask questions and learn things, and seemed to take a pragmatic view of things.
She'll be effective, in her own way.
[Yes IT IS in stone! The 3 will be 100% R142 when the remaining 150 cars or so are delivered,the 7 will be 100% R62A.]
Every SubTalker should know by now that (1) NOTHING at Transit is set in stone until it's officially announced, through official channels, by an agency official, and that (2) even after the official announcement, there's still room for changes and adjustments.
- - - - -
[I've gone through the books and manuel's and I've seen it all.]
1. Plans can change and the "books" rewritten at any time.
2. Who is Manuel? As long as you're citing him as a source, please give his full name and title.
- - - - -
[Also that's gonna happen within the next few years or so is making a connection to Sunnyside Yard so that it will be used as the new subway yard for Queens to relieve Jamaica Yard.]
Amtrak, as owner of Sunnyside Yard, gets to make that call.
- - - - -
The long and short: decisions of fleet assignment are made by Transit's Department of Subways, not by individual railfans.
"Every SubTalker should know by now that (1) NOTHING at Transit is set in stone until it's officially announced, through official channels, by an agency official, and that (2) even after
the official announcement, there's still room for changes and adjustments."
1, Nothing is set in stone till it happens
[Nothing is set in stone till it happens]
Usually true, but not always. Look at the MTA reorganization: it hasn't actually happened yet; however, because it was announced by Pataki's puppet chairman, it's pretty much set in stone.
Again,the 3 will be 100% R142 and the 7 will be 100% R62A.I know that as a fact and there is no way in hell any other type of change can happen.The Redbirds are all getting sunk so SOMETHING has to run on the 7 and since it cant be R142's it's gonna be R62A's.And those R62A's have to come from somewhere.They don't come from Mars you know.
Therefore they will come from the 3 train which is basically all the R62A single cars plus the old Pelham cars that were on the 6 train and maybe a few more old Pelham cars that are now on the 1/9.
And Manuel is not a person,you should know what I mean.I meant a book.
Although maybe I just added that for no real reason.I simply meant book's that are from the MTA themselves.
Again,the 3 will be 100% R142 and the 7 will be 100% R62A.
Then why has a manager for New York City Transit been telling us that there are other possibilities?
Therefore they will come from the 3 train which is basically all the R62A single cars plus the old Pelham cars that were on the 6 train and maybe a few more old Pelham cars that are now on the 1/9.
The 3 has many five-car sets and has for years.
Manuel is a person's name!
Manual is a book!
I think that Gotham Bus was politely trying to tell you that you misspelled manual.
yeah.I have the problem of mispelling a word that I really dont write very often.
[And Manuel is not a person,you should know what I mean.I meant a book.]
No, Manuel is a person; MANUAL is a book.
We can't automatically know what you MEAN when all we see is what you SAY. If you want us to understand correctly, please spell correctly.
Maybe Manuel wrote the manual.
no i just made a spelling error.it happens to me quite often
No. It doesn't happen to you. It's in your control. Learn how to spell. Use a dictionary or a spell-checker if it helps you. The more you display your carelessness with details, the less your readers will be willing to consider your posts seriously. (It also doesn't help that you've summarily announced, without offering evidence of any sort, that R-142's will be going to the 3, without question, even though an NYCT manager has posted a number of times recently, on this very board, that those plans may be changing, and that we should simply take your word over his.)
oh cmon!how the hell can those plans be changing? The redbirds on the 7 are getting sunk like the rest of them so that only leaves the R62/62A's and the R142's/142A's as the only remaining subway cars being used on the A Division.And many posters in the past have said that the 142's cant run on the Flushing line for some reason,which i forget what it was,something to do with the 3rd rail I think.So that means the R62A's need to take the place of the redbirds and those trains come from the 1 and 3 lines,mostly the 3.So therefore if the 3 has a shortage in cars,another type of cars need to replace them,thus the R142's.UNLESS there IS a 2nd option order of 142's from Bombardier;77xx-78xx;so maybe,JUST maybe, they might be used on the 7.
Otherwise they go to the 3.
Um, the cars can be shuffled around.
Even if we assume that the 7 will get a full fleet of R-62A's (which I'm not willing to assume based only one what "many posters in the past have said," since many posters can still be in error), that says nothing about how the R-62's, the remaining R-62A's, the R-142's, and the R-142A's will be distributed around the rest of the system.
Like I said in the other post. You should seriously consider having your head extracted from your ass.
Peace,
ANDEE
....! .........man you are such a nice person ! ............!
..................................!
Why, Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
youre welcome !
.........................lol
And I say you better keep those cockeyed comments to yourself before I decide to give you a major facelift and maybe something even worse.
This board isn't here so you can make comments like that so watch it.
Once more and I'll make sure you'll never post here ever again.
Whoa...
Hey, just to let you know, if you ever want an ally, I'm here for you.
heh,thanks.
Please, Do Not Flame.!.!.! Flaming is bad. Why am I trying to help? Most peeps on this board ignore me anyway...:(
Hey, I don't!
The 7 will nevr get the new hi-tech trains, not for a while.
>>Yes IT IS in stone! The 3 will be 100% R142 when the remaining 150 cars or so are delivered,the 7 will be 100% R62A.I've gone through the books and manuel's and I've seen it all.Also that's gonna happen within the next few years or so is making a connection to Sunnyside Yard so that it will be used as the new subway yard for Queens to relieve Jamaica Yard.<<
1. Its not really set in stone. As of now theres no conclusive evidence the 3 will get any R142's. And if the 3 does get em, then the Red's are going to be here for a while longer.
2. I don't know where Sunnyside came up, but there is a chance Amtrak can back out of the decision to give Sunny Side to the LIRR. Im not doubting you but anything can happen between now and when the deal becomes final.
Here's a big question that I have about this whole crap:
The 2's R-142 replaced the 2's redbirds
The 6's R-142A's replaced their redbirds and sent R-62A's to the 7.
The 5's R-142's replaced their redbirds.
The 4's R-142A's replaced their (few) redbirds
It seems to me that there are already enough replacements for the 7's cars. Why are the #3 line's cars needed?
Because the 6's former R-62A's aren't enough to cover the 7's full fleet. (Also, the 7 needs R-62A singles, which currently run on the 3 -- but that could be changed, of course.)
i thought that there was enough R-62a's to go around. the R-62a's on the 3 stays there and whatever was on the 6 and a few from the 1 goes to the 7. well i will go with what you say and at the same time wait until all r-142's are accepted. confusion
Your wrong about the 3 Line not getting any R142's, they will be receiving some.
-AcelaExpress2005
Not so fast -- I've been hearing some things around the office, on which I will not elaborate. Let's just say things can change.
David
Correct the #3 was set to get 26 R142.Or more.
So it goes as follows.
1[R62A]
2[R142
3[R142&R62A]
4[R142A&R62]
5[R142]
6[R142A]
7 Now there is some mishap.Corona yard is gonna get rebuilt.So is the whole line.Since they are gonna do the CBTC idea.And since all you have to do to the R142 series[includes R142A] is hook a wire up.This is a rumor.Dont quote me.THe order for the #7 will be for maybe 320 cars with an option of another 150.When all this is done near 2020 the #7 and R62 series should be either rebuilt or retired.Then theers a need for more HI tech Subway cars.1,3,4,7,9
BACK IN FULL SWING
You'll be dead and buried if and when CBTC/cab controls are implemented. I was just reading about automated OPTO on the Times Square shuttle...I remember the big inductive loop 'antennae' hanging on the sides of the cars. I witnessed the PATCO system in 1976. What TA ordered is New Tech readily adaptable for CBTC and there are 'empty slots' available. What does NOT exist is the communications medium...trainsets cannot comm reliably yet to engage regenerative braking. There is a long way to go and I would like to be part of that work. CI Peter
Nah! The 3 will be getting those R142's (part of the option order) when the 2 and 5 get all of theirs. The 3 will be mostly R142's with some R62A's to spare.
Not necessarily. As I've been saying here, the car assignment is not set in stone. Internal discussions are underway, which may or may not result in changes to what we've heard over the years about where the rest of the R-142s are going to go.
David
Maybe the Atlantic Ocean?
(Just seeing if Salaam Allah is still around.)
Spreaking of Salaam Allah, I wonder what happened to him lately? I hope the "third" time wan't the jewel. With all the problems he had two weeks ago with "potential" arrests on the 4 train and LIRR Long Beach branch, etc, and his very active presence here while that was all happening, it seems odd that he is MIA. Hopefully he is just busy with his trip, with no access to a computer and didn't turn the "potential" arrests into a real one.
one or the other will... if the 7 stays normal it will get R62s amd the 3 will get R142
If the 7 goes cbtc, it will get R142s, and 1 or 2 lines will give their R142s to the 7
I'm sure the 7 is getting CBTC. Look at all that new wiring and signaling they're putting up. Still, the 7 won't be able to get it when the 3rd rail throughout the line gets fixed up, not forgetting the Corona Reconstruction. You gotta have that 3rd rail fixed along with the HVAC units.
The Flushing Line is not getting CBTC at the moment. That wiring is part of another contract.
David
Oh yes, the signal modernization.
If the Flushing line is slated to be CBTC'ed in the forseeable future, and the R142 cannot be used there, then how will they do it? Waste money retrofitting 25 yo R62's? Modify some R142's to run there? Use the next generation of IRT cars?
This is a question that, last I heard, was being evaluated.
David
the 3 WILL get R142's because all of the cars on the 3 are gonna go to the 7 so therefore the 142's are needed to go to the 3.
Doesn't anybody read my posts? Well, read this one:
THE R-142 CAR ASSIGNMENT IS IN A STATE OF FLUX. THE LAST R-142S MIGHT GO TO THE #3, BUT THEY MIGHT NOT. NYC TRANSIT HAS NOT MADE ITS FINAL DECISION.
David
i read you loud and clear. thats why i said that I WILL WAIT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. its like a lottery. Hey....you neva know!
If the R142s dont run on the 3, the only other line that can run R142/As that would not already have them would be the 4, so the 4 would run R142s and R142As, so the car assignments would be:
1, R62 or R62A
2, R142
3, R62 or R62A
4, R142/A
5, R142
6, R142A
7, R62A
Nyaahhhh...could be...
David
That's one possibility, but R-62's on the 1 and 3 would be mighty odd.
Another possibility is that one or more of the lines with R-142's or R-142A's will give them up.
I meant that either the 1 or 3 would have R62s, and that the other would have the R62As
They could always fix those some day...
Who does have the real facts on this thread ??
...............................!
there are no facts, just probable assignments
What would happen to the
B,D,F,Q,N,R,V,W
in 2004
as the construction is made on Coney Island
would the B and D be restore back in Coney Island
what would happened to the W , Q, F, and V train in 2004
all will be restored to full borough service. w will say bye bye, v is here to stay. Yet things could change. jut wait until 2004
That answer is incorrect. Or maybe it's correct. Since NYC Transit hasn't figured it out yet, certainly nobody here knows.
David
The answer you were offered is the most likely one, because it supports well-used service patterns enabled by the bridge. The 63rd Street line's opening didn't change any service pattern across the bridge; it only shifted services between the 53rd and 63rd Street routes.
When the Coney Island Terminal is completed, trains held short now will once again proceed into the terminal.
The W may or may not be eliminated. Some form of this service may survive on its northern end if riders want to keep an express train on the Astoria line.
I do remember that the W is technically only a temporary line. Despite the (at least) four years it was to run, the MTA did not run public hearings on it. By contrast, it did run public hearings on the V, as they intended to make it permanent. (Suggested ad: "Take the V- the only train with guaranteed seats.") ;)
Now that straphangers have experienced the W, it would be interesting to see whether they would want it to continue, either in its current or another form.
If the MTA's smart, it would keep the W because it has really helped the Broadway line since 7/22/01. If it should stay express or become a local is anybody's guess.
The Astoria line could use a second line instead of having to wait for the "never"(N). Only thing is what would be the southern terminal, Whitehall St or Coney Island via Sea Beach local or express(assuming the express tracks are healthy & they fix the dillapidated Coney Island bound track.)
What do you guys think?
I have said it before, but since you were not paying attention...
(D) 6 Ave Exp to Coney Island via Brighton Local : All Times
(Q) Bway Exp to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express : Day Times
(W) or better yet:
(T) Bway Exp to Coney Island via West End Local : All Times
(B) 6 Ave Exp to Bay Parkway via West End Express : Rush Hours
(B) 6 Ave Exp to 9th Avenue via West End : Day Times
(N) Bway Exp to Coney Island via Sea Beach : Day Times
(N) See Beach Shuttle : Nights
(R) Broadway Local to 95th Street via Fourth Avenue Local : All Times
(M) Broad Street to 95th Street via Fourth Avenue Local : Days
One of the things you must keep in mind is the NORTH END of these services. The West End line requires 24/7 service. The (B) cannot provide this because it does not (and cannot) run 24/7!
Elias
switch your w/t and B and it might work.
As a fantasy, I would want to see the Astoria line extended to the Bronx.
OK by me except for one thing. I want the Sea Beach N nowhere near the Bronx. That would be the last straw to see my train in that neck of the IRT woods.
If it was via 2nd Av. instead, that would insure it was the express.
Hell of a plan Elias. Unfortunately when it comes to that your nothing but a nobody-----just like me. Too bad we haven't got some clout but who would listen to us now. What they have done to my Sea Beach makes me grind my teeth and all I can hope for is that the pendulum swings the other way for a change. Maybe you can go to work for the TA and start putting in the good word.
You know what I think without you having to guess. I'd like nothing better then to get the N train the hell out of Astoria, send the W there as the local, terminate the Sea Beach at either 57th Street or Times Square, and make it an express again heading for the Manny B and Coney Island. That's my shopping list and I hope the TA can see it that way, or at least some of what I want to see happen.
butthe W doesn't run express anymore. then again, maybe in the near future it will. only officials will no for sure. until then this is a " I don't know " topic
As a matter of fact, I've been talking to the guy running the simulations for post-2004, and the service pattern being offered is NOT the most likely one. I'm not going to say what IS yet, because nothing's been settled.
David
(As a matter of fact, I've been talking to the guy running the simulations for post-2004, and the service pattern being offered is
NOT the most likely one. I'm not going to say what IS yet, because nothing's been settled. )
Is he assuming that the H tracks will be out of service to repair the new cracks on that side of the bridge?
If not, I only hope the new service pattern meets the following criteria:
1) Balanced loading on the bridge, 24/7.
2) A choice of Broadway Express, 6th Avenue Express, or Downtown service on the platform at both Pacific Street and DeKalb.
3) 6th Avenue service on the West End (remember the Grand Street outcry).
4) Service to the east side of Downtown (the part still standing) all day on a weekday.
5) A modest service increase on the Brighton, which is more crowded.
I think the plan to do this is:
B: West End to 205th Street Concourse Local, A/B tracks 24/7
Q: Brighton Local on Broadway to 57th or through to Queens, H tracks 24/7
D: Brighton and Concourse Express weekdays, A/B tracks.
N: Sea Beach to Astoria, H tracks express when D runs, via tunnel local nights/weekends.
R: Broadway local, as today.
M: Moves over to the Brighton. The number of trains on the D and Q goes down slightly at peak, matching the number of the B and N.
And, of course, weekend summer super-express specials on Broadway Express and the Sea Beach express track to a rebuilidng Coney Island, outbound until 2:00 pm and then in-bound until 1:00 a.m. Return trains would supplement normal peak direction service on the four regular lines.
"Is he assuming that the H tracks will be out of service to repair the new cracks on that side of the bridge?"
Is this a purely hypothetical question, or are you saying there ARE new cracks on the south side of the bridge.
IF (a big IF) there ARE already new cracks on the south side (and no one else has claimed this that I know of), we can forget about the Manhattan Bridge as a viable transportation route. They did everything reasonable engineers could think of doing to make the south side still enough to carry trains without damage. All those "what if" discussions are sudenly actually going to be relevant.
("Is he assuming that the H tracks will be out of service to repair the new cracks on that side of the bridge?" Is this a purely hypothetical question, or are you saying there ARE new cracks on the south side of the bridge. )
I don't know if there are or not. For 20 years, they've proposed one fix and then another, and the cracks re-appeared. But with no one in Brooklyn paying attention and demanding information, we aren't told what is going on.
I agree that with all the traffic on one side of the bridge for three years, this is a pretty good test of whether or not the anti-torsional fix is working. So I'd like to see a thorough and public accounting of the bridge's condition in 2004, preferably by someone hired by the city of state comptroller, not someone with an interest in keeping the problems quiet to save a few bucks in the short run for use elsewhere.
"I don't know if there are or not. For 20 years, they've proposed one fix and then another, and the cracks re-appeared. But with no one in Brooklyn paying attention and demanding information, we aren't told what is going on."
In other words, you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about, but you wanted to take an uninformed pot shot at the city over the Manny B anyway. Was it therapeutic for you?
It's certainly possible that new service plans are in the works, if the TA thinks it's time to offer the public a different mix of trains to move people more efficiently. OK. Whatever the TA does, it will certainly be an improvement over only one side of the bridge being used.
Well I think I can live with some of that. However, keep the Sea Beach out of that rat infested Montague hole as much as possible and get it on the bridge and express.
It just occurred to me that since the F is 63rd St. now, if they decide they want the 3 6th Av. services on the bridge again, since 63rd could switch to the express as well as local, then the F might go over the bridge! Believe it or not, the digital signs do have codes for the F going over any southern div. line.
(The V would then cover the Culver, and to balance the load on the bridge, maybe they would keep the W, as well as the N and Q. Perhaps this time they will try to go for the 90tph envisioned in the chrystie St. plans, or at least close to it. This would probably kill Culver exp. though, unless you just divide the V's.)
I'm sure this is at least one of the possibilities they've simulated, since David says they're looking into them all. So it may not be what we were always used to.
Although the switches north of 50th allow trains from 63rd to reach both the local and the express tracks, I hope the current local arrangement sticks. Why? Because otherwise, whichever line runs via 63rd is a double-transfer away from the 1/9.
Back in the days of the orange Q, it took two transfers to get home: either to the B/D somewhere in Manhattan (and invariably a B would be sent onto the bridge directly in front of the Q) and then to the 1/9 at 59th, or to the 2/3 at Atlantic and then to the 1/9 at an express station in Manhattan. If only locals run to Queens, then there's a direct transfer at either 14th or 59th from each 6th Avenue service.
Do not hold your breath waiting to see what NYCTA will do with trackage on the Manhattan Bridge. Any possible plans would be belayed IF serious structural cracks were found. If the weight of trainsets was still acceptable, GOs would demand S L O W travel and trackage would not be replaced. My mother just attended a historical lecture on the Woodbridge Derailment of the early sixties...a temporary trestle had been set up, there may have been GOs but there were no markers to let engineers when to slow down...the trainset traveled a bridge designed for 5 MPH doing fifty.
All of Manhattans bridges are hundred years old or so...they have NOT been properly maintained, corrosion from air pollution/acid rain/pigeon droppings have taken their toll. The City has gotten their monies worth out of these magnificent structures but now must pay 'bokoo bucks' tho retain their use. 3rd Avenue Bridge is the latest to fall...I remember when the Queensboro Bridge buckled on the upper level and a flashing yellow light was installed at the expansion plates. Same thing with the Brooklyn Bridge...rotted steel suspension cables snapped under tension and killed a Japanese tourist.
Single level high arc bridges ten lanes wide made from CorTen or Stainless Steel alloys could be built at great expense in a relatively short time but the money is not going to fall like 'Manna from Heaven.' BTW: Queensboro Bridge is certified DOT for transport of radioactive materiels...one accident and the whole span may have to stand unused for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. CI Peter
I heard that the W will stay also. It will operate between Astoria and Whitehall part-time. We still have another year to go and MTA 2004 Service plan has not been decided yet at this time.
No decisions have been made. Safe bets are the resumption of B/D service to Brooklyn and the N moving onto the bridge, via Broadway.
Which Brooklyn IRT branch do we ride first? Also isn't there a bus from one of the IRT Brooklyn terminals to Rockaway Park (I may go there after the trip)?
Take the 2 train to Flatbush/Nostrand and take the Q35 for Rockaway Park.
Ok so when the trip goes to Flatbush/Nostrand I'll get the Q35. The weather is supposed to be nice with onshore winds, I better get to the Rockaways before winter arrives!
Better yet, take the 7 to woodside and the Q53 express. Dont know if they run weekends but they should
yeah they run every day.
Yes I usually do the Q53 thing but I'm going on the Subtalk trip tomorrow to Brooklyn IRT, so if the trip ends at Flatbush/Nostrand, I may take the Q35 to get to Rockaway park from there.
I think Peggy's plan is to start with whichever line comes first.
But if she wants to stop at any of the local stations between Atlantic and Franklin, those will have to come on the return trip, since all SB trains are running express from Atlantic to Franklin.
Another option to get to Rockaway Park, from Franklin, is to take the shuttle to the C to the A to the, um, other shuttle.
Why hasn't the Mylar window coverings been expanded for use systemwide on all subway cars, commuter cars , and buses? Instead they are limited to new tech only. Why? A great time to put them on the R62A's would be when they were transferred to the (7), since all windows were replaced on the 62's when they were transferred.
Sorry 'bout the typo! ( ----------<)
...i didn't notice any window replacement on them r62s...
???
there is no window replacement on the R-62a's and they are far worse now than they were on the 6
All window scratchitti on the 7 line was created by its riders.
the riders who are vandals
The use of Mylar....is recommended by OnTheJuice for covering bodily
orifices. The only glass in #5 Redbirds not scratched up...is what we just replaced during inspection. During the Montreal Expo 67, Canadian trainsets had major HVAC Freon leaks. Every other door window was replaced with perforated stainless steel. REMOVE all NYCTA windows in all trainsets and replace the glass with perforated stainless steel. Rain, snow, cold....so what? CI Peter
"During the Montreal Expo 67, Canadian trainsets had major HVAC Freon leaks. Every other door window was replaced with perforated stainless steel."
When did the Montreal Metro trains ever have the air conditioning to cause the freon leaks? The trains you are talking about with the perforated steel end door windows run exclusively on the green line in Montreal these days, and they haven't had air conditioning as long as I've been riding them (20 years)!
Understand I was thirteen years old, an aspiring ham operator that used to frequent Cortlandt Street until it fell into the WTC hole. When I attended Expo 67 for two weeks, the flak was in the news that air conditioning units were installed in the funny trains with the rubber tires and serious leaks were discovered. The system was brand new and unfinished. The concern had been that under certain circumstances the R-12 leaks could come in contact with hot materiels transforming it into Phosgene gas...a well known weapon of WW1. Glass windows were replaced with perforated steel sheets and during the summer I did not find the ride underground uncomfortable. It is very possible that later trainsets did not have AC and the units were deleted. The lighting and natural ventilation was very accomodating both in the tunnels and the stations. I wonder what it is like now...the filth, dirt, steel dust and composite brake shoe remains of the very trains I used to travel on to 'Radio Row'is affecting my health....I MAKE REDBIRDS GO! CI Peter
The Expo '67 cars were air-conditioned but not rubber-tired. The Montreal Metro cars were/are rubber-tired but not air-conditioned.
David
even the T/O's window?!!
Reckon they can't see past perforated stainless steel?
No...T/Os windows remained laminated glass. Only every other side door had the perforated S/S treatment. My ultimate point is that perforated S/S is pretty hard to scratchitti...every Redbird window is etched and one of the few saving graces of New Tech is the removable Mylar shield. Someone pointed out to me that multilayer Mylar is being considered...pull off the first layer to expose a new clean surface for maggots to etch. Another poster had asked if every trainset will get the Mylar treatment....I will respond that the stuff is expensive but so much easier than trying to replace the glass in a rusted door panel. Stainless steel does not 'rust' but corrodes and S/S fasteners 'gall.' Worse with disimilar metals...S/S, aluminum and carbon steel roll pins to secure with. CI Peter
On the majority of Jamaica Yard R46's, the train operator's vision glass (windshield) now has a mylar covering on it. If you put your finger on it, you can visibly see the material give way to the touch. Also because of the mylar, scratchitti is now easier to apply onto the vision glass and now it's more difficult to see while one is operating. There isn't a safety factor or anything, it's just irritating when one has to tweak their neck for an hour and a half in order to get a clear view.
Smearovision for motorpeople? What's the procedure for operating now? Using the FORCE? Sheesh.
How would vandals even get into the T/O cab?
The Mylar is applied to the outside of the windshield and easily accessible by maggots. CI Peter
I think it's simply because the MTA doesn't care about the older rolling stock. I mean going by logic, since the MTA is protecting its new hi-tech trains, they are giving the heads-up to all vandals that the future is here and it's vandalism-free. I've ridden the trains many times obviously, and I agree. The MTA could do it with the other rolling stock, by they're not going to waste all that time.
Besides, when the R62A's were moved to Corona, all the scratchiti that appeared on it was the people's own doing. Jeez, they can't even appreciate A/C cars now!
>>Shuttle buses replace trains between Rockaway Pkwy
and Broadway Junction
Weekend, 10 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Oct 4 to 7<<
That's what is says on the service advisory on the MTA website. With the CBTC work on the Canarsie Line between Broadway Junction, they have been running a one train shuttle on one track. Great headways !
If there is no train service and buses are being substituted, could they be connecting the new Manhattan bound steelwork at Sutter Ave ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe!
wayne
It's possible, but they've run this same shuttle bus service before. I rode it Labor Day weekend 2001. To get there I took a New Lots-bound 1 -- the South Ferry branch was closed due to a GO, so 1's went to Brooklyn. Little did any of us know that a week later the GO would be reinstated for a full year!
My understanding is that this is the "in-service" for the new conventional signals at Rockaway Parkway. Broadway Junction is already done. I'm not sure about the rest of the line, but I think most of the rest of the work involves CBTC.
This weekend G.O. is to finish off the new X cross over just outside of Rackaway station and to remove the X cross over just outside of 105st, and replace it the a singel cross over. For the next two weekend there is also a G.O with Shuttle Buses. I think this one is to put in the two conection for it to go strate up, or for something else. When I find out next Thusday I will post more infomation.
Robert
I was just wondering whether the SIRTOA still uses C/R's on board or whether they now operate in OPTO service.
And IF it is in OPTO service, what is the procedure at Atlantic station which I believe is 1 car length long?
I don't think SIRTOA is using OPTO service. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I don't think so.
Which ever. At Atlantic or any station that has a short platform, an announcement before arriving that only the first car will fit at the platform. Conductors or the OPTO operator will open only one door at the station to let customers in or out.
They still use C/Rs. And the C/R opens the last car door at the B end, since the C/R is in the rear cab.
BTW: At one stop, I forgot which, the last car does not platform. This may only be with 5 car trains. Anyway, the conductor drops the breaker so the last car's doors don't open at that stop.
That would be Richmond Valley, only long enough for three cars. SIRT does not run any five-car trains. Crews are always two-person.
-Hank
When did they stop running 5 car trains?
Instead of having the A train go to both Lefferts Blvd and the Rockaways, why not have the C train extended from Eucilid Ave to Lefferts, while having all A trains go to the Rockaways? I think that this would make anyone riding the A train (particularly anyone going to JFK) not have to worry about which train to wait for.
I think this should be done as well, that way all A trains go to the Rockaways and 1/2 the trains go to B116th, eliminating the need for that "once in a blue moon" shuttle.
It may be that A line riders are telling MTA the same thing that F line riders in Queens are saying: If we get on at the end of a line on a local, we don't want to have to switch to a crowded express train.
At the divergence point, two tracks become the Rockaway Line (though that increases to three or four at one point, doesn't it?) - but there is room for more trains. Want better service? Add more trains and increase A frequency around the clock to every 5 minutes, and put one into the Rocaways every 10 minutes. At rush hour, make it every 4 minutes with a Rockaway train every 8 minutes. And so on.
You can even (heresy!) run 2 out of every 3 A'sto the Rockaway, instead of the other way around, as sometimes may occur.
How about this: tell Lefferts Blvd. riders to get used to the train. We can't have neighborhoods dictating their own service patterns.
How about this: tell Lefferts Blvd. riders to get used to the C train. We can't have neighborhoods dictating their own service patterns.
IIRC, when the E ran to Brooklyn, the A was the Fulton St. local. Until 1988,the A only ran express during rush hours. It's not like they'd be changing a long established pattern.
In addition, they would actually be getting lower headways on the Lefferts end with the C. Instead of alternate A's, they would have full C service - which I think is greater than half of the A service. Having more tph, would actually make their ride shorter (if you include wait time at their originating station - and they could always transfer at an express station to the A if they see fit).
Yup. The C runs at 9 TPH, certainly more than half A service during rush hours.
"How about this: tell Lefferts Blvd. riders to get used to the C train. We can't have neighborhoods dictating their own service patterns."
Really? Whom are those trains serving if not people in the neighborhood? If a majority of riders want or need a particular service pattern, that's what MTA is obligated to devise.
MTA has a mandate to serve its riders, not merely cater to railbuffs. If you want something different, you have TrainSim and your Lionel train set at home to do it on. Want to share your thoughts with MTA? Write a letter and see what happens.
Get a grip, Chris. Replacing one lettered train with another isn't a particularly earth-shattering event. You're turning the molehill into a mountain.
Get a grip, Chris. Replacing one lettered train with another isn't a particularly earth-shattering event. You're turning the molehill into a mountain.
One neighborhood shouldn't dictate service if it damages service to another. Currently, Rockaway Park riders have a much longer trip into Manhattan. It is they who should have thru service via the Fulton St. express, not Lefferts Blvd. Service should be maximized for all, not just those who scream louder or cry more.
"One neighborhood shouldn't dictate service if it damages service to another. Service should be maximized for all, not just those who scream louder or cry more."
EXACTLY!!! The current service plan DOES THIS in rush hour. Far Rock customers get 6 expresses per hour, Lefferts cutomers get 6, and Rock Park customers get 3. This is roughly in proportion to their numbers (see David's post with numbers).
Sending the C to Lefferts in rush hour is an OVERALL disservice. It hurts Lefferts people far more than it helps Far Rockaway people.
In non-rush-hour, it could easily make sense to send the C to Lefferts and all As to the Rockaways. This would help both the Lefferts customers and the Rockaway customers. It just costs more money than the current plan.
EXACTLY!!! The current service plan DOES THIS in rush hour. Far Rock customers get 6 expresses per hour, Lefferts cutomers get 6, and Rock Park customers get 3. This is roughly in proportion to their numbers (see David's post with numbers).
During rush hours. Other times, Rockaway Park riders must deal with an annoying transfer, making an already long ride longer. Running the C to Lefferts gives that spur MORE trains per hour than now, and it gives Rockaway Park riders all day thru service.
Sending the C to Lefferts in rush hour is an OVERALL disservice. It hurts Lefferts people far more than it helps Far Rockaway people.
No it doesn't. It INCREASES their service, especially during the day when only 3 TPH serve the line. Full C service means double the service.
"Sending the C to Lefferts in rush hour is an OVERALL disservice. It hurts Lefferts people far more than it helps Far Rockaway people."
"No it doesn't. It INCREASES their service, especially during the day when only 3 TPH serve the line. Full C service means double the service."
"During the day" is not rush hour. I agree it makes sense to send the C to Lefferts during the day, except for the minor fact that it costs money. In RUSH HOUR there are currently 6 or 7 Cs per hour and 6 As to Lefferts.
"During the day" is not rush hour. I agree it makes sense to send the C to Lefferts during the day, except for the minor fact that it costs money. In RUSH HOUR there are currently 6 or 7 Cs per hour and 6 As to Lefferts.
There are approx. 8 C's per hour during rush hours, a clear advantage over 6 A's. No matter how you frame it, Lefferts Blvd. riders would benefit from full C service at any time during the day.
"There are approx. 8 C's per hour during rush hours, a clear advantage over 6 A's. No matter how you frame it, Lefferts Blvd. riders would benefit from full C service at any time during the day."
Would you give up your express service and guaranteed seat in return for a train every 8 minutes instead of every 10 minutes? Of course not. The express saves 5 minutes over the local, and if you switch to an express at Rockaway Blvd you (a) have to wait for it and (b) probably don't get a seat..
So running the Lefferts trains as locals DURING RUSH HOURS hurts the Lefferts folks. And running all the A expresses to the Rockaways helps the Rockaway folks but is not justified by the traffic.
So running the Lefferts trains as locals DURING RUSH HOURS hurts the Lefferts folks. And running all the A expresses to the Rockaways helps the Rockaway folks but is not justified by the traffic
No it doesn't. More trains means more seats, less waiting times, etc. The only thing Lefferts Blvd. riders would be giving up is direct express service. Given their closer proximity to Manhattan than those who use the Rockaway line, I'd say that would be a fair exchange.
"Service should be maximized for all, not just those who scream louder or cry more."
OK, that I can agree with.
true,it would,but the fact that there arent enough trains yet and whatever trains do get sent to Pitkin and 207 St Yards from Jamaica might be used to make the C a 10 car train,the A service will likely remain the same for quite some time.Oh yes,let's not forget about extra train crews which= extra money.
>>the fact that there arent enough trains yet and whatever trains do get sent to Pitkin and 207 St Yards from Jamaica might be used to make the C a 10 car train,the A service will likely remain the same for quite some time.Oh yes,let's not forget about extra train crews which= extra money.<<
actually the MTA can send the A trains that run to lefferts to the C trains without borrowing from Jamaica and use a few of the guys/gals from the A for the C. This is what we call cutting corners.
The point that you are missing is this: it's a long way to Far Rock (or even Rock Park), much further than to Lefferts. So if you run the present A frequency, but send all the As to the Rockaways, it needs more trains and more crews, because of the longer distance each train has to travel.
I wouldn't want to go Local all the way to Lefferts, I like the C terminating at Euclid Ave., it always gives me a seat, when waiting for the A Train.
-AcelaExpress2005
>>I wouldn't want to go Local all the way to Lefferts, I like the C terminating at Euclid Ave., it always gives me a seat, when waiting for the A Train.<<
You obviously never seen the confusion on peoples face when they dont know if their train is going to the Rockaways or Lefferts Blvd. This would benefit alot more than it hurts.
All too many times do people get on the Lefferts train and ask me "Are we going to JFK?" or "Is this the JFK train??", or simply end up at Lefferts wondering why they haven't reached JFK. They don't listen to announcements!! They don't read maps or signs!! Most of the time when they end up at Lefferts, I tell them to either take the train back to Rockaway Blvd. to catch the Far Rockaway-bound train to Howard Beach-JFK station, or tell them that they could also go down on the street on the corner of Lefferts and Liberty Ave. and catch the Q-10 (JFK-bound) bus. The C going to Lefferts would end this confusion for the most part. They'll then think "A to JFK and the Rockaways" and "C to Lefferts", thus helping to eliminate the Lefferts A/Far Rock A confusion.
There is another solution, albeit an controversial one: tear down the A to Lefferts and have all the trains go at least as far as JFK.
There are only three stops on that end of the line, so most people are traveling by bus. With only some of the trains going to Lefferts, those folks face a long wait for the train.
As an alternative, the TA could install "bus rapid transit" priority signalling for buses (an approaching bus turns the light green) on Rockaway Blvd and Liberty Avenue. Buses would terminate at a rebuilt station at Woodhaven Blvd, where every A train could stop.
To improve the transfer, the old structure could be incorporated into a new bus station up at the fare control level, with buses on Liberty, Rockwaway, Woodhaven/Crossbay and perhaps other streets ascending and descending ramps and platforming right next to the station. I imagine an traffic circle for buses over Woodhaven Blvd, with ramps up from the curb lanes.
With more frequent service on the Q112, a shorter wait for the train (since every A train stops at Woodhaven), and bus entry/exit level with the station, I'd bet those who now walk to the three Lefferts stations would be better off. Everyone else would be better off by definition.
"There is another solution, albeit an controversial one: tear down the A to Lefferts and have all the trains go at least as far as JFK.
There are only three stops on that end of the line, so most people are traveling by bus."
"I'd bet those who now walk to the three Lefferts stations would be better off. Everyone else would be better off by definition."
These conclusion are incorrect because the bues feeding the Lefferts line don't all come in an inbound direction.
One of the big feeds to the Lefferts line is the Q10 bus along Lefferts Blvd (perpendicular to the A train). It runs very frequently and serves both the A station and the Kew Gardens station on Queens Blvd. People taking the Q10 to Lefferts would have to switch to another bus and then to the train. You can't divert the Q10 to go to Woodhaven without splintering the line because many of its riders do NOT want the A train.
All this also applies to the 111th St bus, except that it runs less frequently.
So no, there are lots of people who don't walk to the Lefferts A who would be very unhappy if it were replaced by a special bus.
The 111 St. "bus" is the Q37.
(One of the big feeds to the Lefferts line is the Q10 bus along Lefferts Blvd (perpendicular to the A train). It runs very frequently
and serves both the A station and the Kew Gardens station on Queens Blvd. People taking the Q10 to Lefferts would have to switch to another bus and then to the train. You can't divert the Q10 to go to Woodhaven without splintering the line because many of its riders do NOT want the A train. All this also applies to the 111th St bus, except that it runs less frequently.)
I think those buses could, in fact, be rerouted under the solution I propose. The Q10 could run east on Liberty -- taking advantage of signal preference and up onto the elevated bus station, down another ramp onto Rockaway and -- taking advangage of preferred signal timing -- return to Lefferts. The 11th Street bus could do the same. If you were to invest in a fancy bus to train terminal and special bus lanes and signals, you'd want them used.
"There are only three stops on that end of the line, so most people are traveling by bus. With only some of the trains going to Lefferts, those folks face a long wait for the train."
What incredible nonsense. Those three stations represent what little subway service Ozone Park gets. They do not wait a long time for trains, because more than 50% of A service terminates there. If a lot ofd people are on the bus, that argues very strongly for extending the Lefferts branch, not cutting it off. I'd rebuild it as a subway, put the three stops underground and extend the line along Liberty Av as far as budget will allow.
More than 50%? A trains alternate between Lefferts and Far Rock.That means service is every 15 mintues on each branch and every 20mins during the weekend's on each branch. I say each branch get's 50/50 service.
Several sources have told me the TA runs two Lefferts trains for every one Rockaway train. If that is not the case, then you are correct.
There is enough track capacity to increase the A train's frequency. Each branch could have 8-10 trains per hour if the TA wanted to devote the crews and rolling stock.
No, when through Lefferts service runs, only alternate trains go there (except during rush hours, when the A has three branches, so Lefferts gets under half the service), with 20-minute headways at many times. When through Lefferts service doesn't run (late nights), a shuttle runs at 20-minute headways.
Larry's idea is a good one (though perhaps logistically difficult) if most passengers transfer from the bus anyway. The ride time differential would be less than the wait time differential, and sitting or even standing on a bus is more comfortable than standing on an elevated platform when the weather's bad. And sending all trains to the Rockaways yields more service to Howard Beach, for whatever that's worth.
"Larry's idea is a good one (though perhaps logistically difficult) if most passengers transfer from the bus anyway. "
But they don't (not in the way Larry means it), and Ozone Park has a sensitive constituency which is underserved by subways. So clearly the answer is to maintain Lefferts service as best one can, and consider extending the line when possible.
"And sending all trains to the Rockaways yields more service to Howard Beach, for whatever that's worth."
You're only half right. Sending more trains to the Rockaways means more service to the Rockaways.
I do wish the TA would put in a second track to allow trans-Peninsula movement. Of course they could even do some of that with the one connecting track, by installing new signals.
"Larry's idea is a good one (though perhaps logistically difficult) if most passengers transfer from the bus anyway."
The trouble with the idea is that the Q10 (Lefferts bus) and the 111th St bus serve multiple purposes. Diverting those buses from their straight shot up Lefferts or 111th is fine for the folks who are taking the A train. But many people on those buses are NOT taking the A train. They are taking local trips or taking a train at Kew Gardens. You are screwing those folks royally with a 2-mile detour, half of it on a narrow street (Liberty Ave) that can't really support an express bus lane.
Besides, what benefit does this idea serve? The Lefferts line is a well-used short stub that allows NYCT to save money by not sending all A trains out to the Rockaways, which don't need 15 tph. This way, 9 rush hour trains go to the Rockaways, and 6 turn earlier (Lefferts).
The off-rush idea of extending the C to Lefferts makes more sense. Then both Lefferts and Far Rock would have 6 tph in the non-rush. Even that idea does cost money, since former Euclid trips and former Lefferts trips would both now be longer.
Excellently argued.
Several sources have told me the TA runs two Lefferts trains for every one Rockaway train. If that is not the case, then you are correct.
Why don't you count the number of trains during the morning rush hour (7-10 AM at Jay St) for yourself.
And you're providing an authoritative, up-to-date source?
:0)
More than 50%? A trains alternate between Lefferts and Far Rock.That means service is every 15 mintues on each branch during the weekday and every 20mins during the weekend's on each branch. I say each branch get's 50/50 service.
There is another solution, albeit an controversial one: tear down the A to Lefferts and have all the trains go at least as far as JFK.
What are the turnstile figures for those 3 stops vs. the turnstile figures for the Rockaway line? If the Lefferts branch outdraws the Rockaway branch wouldn't the reverse make more sense. (This should not be taken to imply that there is any merit to your proposal.)
(What are the turnstile figures for those 3 stops vs. the turnstile figures for the Rockaway line? If the Lefferts branch outdraws the
Rockaway branch wouldn't the reverse make more sense. (This should not be taken to imply that there is any merit to your proposal.)
I'd have to go back to the office to get the specific figures. But the biggest drawing station is Rockaway Blvd and Woodhaven, where all the trains stop. And the Rockaway branch serves the airport and the new Airtrain.
And the Rockaway branch serves the airport and the new Airtrain.
I'm sure that AirTrain-Howard Beach may outdraw Dean St - but not by much. :-)
The PA Shuttle Bus outdraws Dean Street when Dean Street was open.
Didn't you ever want to do transportation engineering instead of aerospace work? Too bad MTA didn't hire you - we wouldn't have to worry about anybody taking the subway anymore :0)
I can say from personal experience that the Lefferts Blvd. spur has heavy patronage and tearing it down would be completely assinine.
Annual Ridership by Station, 2001:
ROCKAWAY LINE:
Far Rockaway: 1,251,685
B. 25th Street: 494,252
B. 36th Street: 184,313
B. 44th Street: 113,004
B. 60th Street: 593,055
B. 67th Street: 445,581
Broad Channel: 95,085
Howard Beach-JFK: 1,115,611
Aqueduct-North Conduit Avenue: 238,811
Aqueduct Racetrack: 34,960
LEFFERTS BOULEVARD "LINE" (actually south end of Fulton Street Line):
Lefferts Boulevard: 2,258,782
111th Street: 804,808
104th Street: 560,238
Thanks for the information. That comes to 4.6 million for the Far Rockaway branch and 3.6 million for the Lefferts Blvd branch. For completeness, what are the figures for the Rockaway Park branch?
ROCKAWAY LINE (Continued):
Rockaway Park: 309,968
B. 105th Street: 70,324
B. 98th Street: 204,734
B. 90th Street: 303,880
David
Or, they could reprogram the R44 signs to say
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY
A 8TH AV/FULTON EXP
A VIA JFK AIRPORT
OR This: Do the simple thing and sign up all the Rockaway trains as "H"
wayne
Well, that's what the damn destination signs are for, duh!
-AcelaExpress2005
>>You obviously never seen the confusion on peoples face when they dont know if their train is going to the Rockaways or Lefferts Blvd. This would benefit alot more than it hurts.<<
Theres a point to the text above. Sometimes destination signs dont help like they should. Thats the whole point of this thread.
That's the problem,people DON'T know how to read a destination sign.
They just get on the train without even looking at it.That's how dumb they are.
I agree. If you are not sure where you are going & you DON'T know how to read a destination sign :-\, here's 3 solutions [I don't mean to be harsh but its true how people don't like to look at the signs & then tries to blame others for their mistake]:
1. Don't ride the subway
2. Ask someone on the train who knows about the line
3. Get a map from a token booth. ITS FREE!
1:Don't ride the subway is a good idea.
2:They can always ask me,I know EVERYTHING about the subway;which line to take to where.
3:And even if they did get a subway map,I bet ya they wouldn't understand it no matter how simple it may seem.
Sometimes it takes too long for the dumb sign to get to the one important piece of information you need. The following can happen when trying to get to the Rockaways:
Run down the stairs, see a sign: A - 8th ave / Fulton EXP is displayed:
Get on, the sign scrolls to "Lefferts Blvd", then the doors close.
Don't get on, the doors close and the sign scrolls to "Far Rockaway".
Do neither, the c/r announces "Brooklyn Bound A", and the sign scrolls to "207st/Manhattan". Lovely.
We need either separate letters (H for Rockaways like Wayne suggests) or the front rollsign should have the destination underneath.
At least with the R-38s, you can tell sinmply by what the majority of the side rollsigns read.
How about this:
Eliminate that "missing" shuttle and extend C's to Rockaway Park all times except nights where it will run from Euclid Av to Rockaway Park.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
BTW, people that go to/from Lefferts Blvd are NOT going to be happy if a local service replaced express service. That's what they have signs for (unless its a R44 with malfunctioned signs
Can you say `HH`? Bring it back. Send the C back to Beford Park for redundancy in the Bronx and run the D express in the peak direction. However no A line to Lefferts Blvd is not an option. You think people howled over the truncation of the G line, you ain`t heard nothing yet. Plus us former and present Brooklynites know that Queens residents have more clout. Heh
You're right that they wouldn't be happy.
But that's because they wouldn't stop to notice that they'd be better off with local service at half the current headway, especially if they're willing to transfer to an express at Euclid.
People can be silly at times.
"You're right that they wouldn't be happy.
But that's because they wouldn't stop to notice that they'd be better off with local service at half the current headway, especially if they're willing to transfer to an express at Euclid."
You're right in non-rush hours. Local service with 6 tph is better than express service with 4 tph (recently increased from 3 tph). But you don't have a good argument in rush hours. C service is 6 or 7 tph, and so is A service from Lefferts.
In rush hours, Lefferts deserves its expresses and benefits from them. It might make very good sense to give them a different designation, so that people don't confuse the Rockaway and Lefferts trains.
How about leaving the A to Far Rockaway, C train to Euclid Ave, and K train to Lefferts Blvd? If memory serves, the blue K sign is still on the R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42 and all 75 footers.
K can run express in Brooklyn and Manhattan between Lefferts Blvd and Bedford Park Blvd daily 5AM to 10PM. All other times can run from 34 St-Penn Station to Lefferts Blvd providing 24 hour express service in Brooklyn and Manhattan south of 34 St while A train does its overnight local service. Yeah I know, MO MONEY, MO MONEY, MO MONEY.
But anyway, how about this?
If the blue K or H is still on the rollsigns, it wouldn't cost that much to change the Lefferts A's to H or K. You would not need to add more trains, as it would be the same amount of trains. Sure, you would have less "A" trains, but all the former Lefferts A's would be H or K's - the same amount of total trains as now. The only expense involved would be at the stations where they would have to add K's or H's to the signs.
The MTA would have to do a major PR/education effort to convince the passengers from Lefferts to Rockaway Ave. they were better off with more trains and a transfer (if desired) to the A express than direct A service. They might be willing to give up the one-seat express ride then, provided there was still a seat for them on the A if they transferred between Rockaway Ave. and Euclid.
On other other side of it, people who regularly use the current JFK-Howard Beach shuttle might suddenly find the Lefferts A and Q-10 connection more attractive, after the first couple of times they have to pay that new AirTrain fare, which will be (at the current time) 233 percent higher than the subway fare.
Why do you call it the "missing" shuttle? It runs every 20mins.For service to Rockaway Park,that's good enough.
I think that is inadequate service, unless the demand isn't great & a lot of people don't ride it that's a different story.
Believe me alot of people don't ride it.I've been on that shuttle before and its practically empty.The same can go to the station.If people don't wanna wait 20mins for a train they can take the Q22 bus.
It'll get them to Rock Pk. too.
During hot summer days, the Rockaway Shuttle can get surprisingly crowded. The MTA has to pull out 8-car R-44 train sets to accomodate the crowd. In general though, I think 20 minute headways is adequate for the Rockaway Shuttle.
Service every 20 minutes is pretty uncomfortable especially in the winter, with all the stations outdoors and not much to protect anyone from the wind. I would run it every 12 minutes if possible.
wayne
All the stations have heated waiting areas. Broad channel's is decent.
Yes, that's probably true of the 1956-vintage stations (Howard Beach, Broad Channel), what about the three local stops on the Rockaway El (B90, B98, B105)? Could get nippy up there with the wind coming in off Jamaica Bay. One trip we did in Dec of 2000 had us waiting for a shuttle at Broad Channel and even though it was in the 30s there was a wind and it was MOST uncomfortable at platform level. The heat in the mezzanine was not working that day, and the only relief was from the wind.
wayne
I'd like to see the TA add a second track to the line connecting the two branches of the Rockaway Peninsula, so that a train could be run from one end of the Peninsula to the other. This would give Rockaway customers access to the LIRR Far Rockaway Line.
They don't need a second track, single track for the 5 blocks is good enough.
But immediately after school hours they should run some sort of cross-peninsula service because the transfer traffic at BC is insane.
"They don't need a second track, single track for the 5 blocks is good enough."
Yes, you're right. Just add appropriate signalling in both directions.
You're basically asking for the restoration of pre-1992 Rockaway service. While I'd like to see the Rockaway PArk have real thru-service restored, why does it have to be the C? It should be another branch of the A, leaving theC to servce Lefferts Blvd. riders.
Well, having A's on the Rocaway Park branch would give it decent service, but as I said before, Lefferts Blvd riders will not be happy with a local service replacing express service. Also, I dont think people would want to transfer if they're going to a express stop in Brooklyn or Manhattan.
Why don't they just extend the C to Rockaway Park daytimes like they did in the mid 90's and get rid of the shuttle? Why did they stop doing that to begin with? Forget the H. Forget the S, just have the C go to Rockaway Park, and I just guess keep the express A's going to Lefferts, if those stub end riders can't take the local.
I thought of this plan in a previous post & yet people insist that a local service to Lefferts would work. Guess what, IT WON'T work! People are going have a protest similar to the G train debacle guess who won? The people. Now try to change a one seat express ride to a 1 transfer ride by replacing A express service with C trains. See what would happen. Sends C's to Rock. Park that way you get rid of that shuttle and it will benefit people because:
1. It MIGHT increase ridership during non summer months.
2. Since C's run every 9-10 minutes, you can have 2 trains for every 1 the shuttle currently has.
3. People don't have to wait for an A every 15 minutes (as it is now) to Howard Beach and will not have to transfer at Broad Channel.
Thank you!!!!!!! You have someone who agrees with you.
I would really hate it if I had to rely on the stations on the Rockaway Park end of the line. Apparently, going by the information above, there are approx. 2 C trains for every S that runs to Rock Park. If the C's run every 9-10 minutes, that means the S runs every 18-20 minutes or so. Then those people have to get off at Howard Beach, and possibly wait another 15 more minutes to get an A that will finally let them leave the Rockaway area and begin their journey to Manhattan. That's possibly a total of 35 minutes of just WAIT time if a person just misses a train when entering a station! That doesn't even include the travel time between Howard Beach and Rockaway Park! I don't remember how long it takes to get from Rockaway Park to Howard Beach, but let's say it's about 10 to 15 minutes. That means it can possibly take almost 50 minutes to get from Rockaway Park to Howard Beach under normal service! A small delay could make that worse!
Now those people have a reason to complain!
All the more reason for either increasing headway or instituting thru "C" service. The Rockaway Park branch is woefully underserved.
wayne
Damn, I feel sorry for those people. To me, no part of the subway system should have atrocious service like that (unless the demand/ridership is low then its justified). What????!!! People really could wait up to 35 minutes in just waiting time. Thats messed up, especially in the cold months & lets say the heat doesn't work, people are assed out. This gives people a option of not waiting for 1 train, but the A and C particularly Howard Beach/JFK & no more transfers at Broad Channel. I'm not trying to cause trouble but the people should gather up & have a meeting with the MTA demanding better sevice.
The Rockaways could use structural improvements also like better stations, lighting etc.
The lighting has been upgraded at B90, B98 and B105 with the new "crook" lamps; the other stations, while somewhat modern (newer than the original LIRR dish-shaped shades), could use improvement. I am not sure what the mezzanines/entranceways look like as I have never had occasion to get off at any of the stations (except B116-Rockaway Park).
wayne
I went to B98 St once(because of a A train GO in the Rockaways) & I think its a wood mezzanine and its very dull
I haven't been at any of the Rockaway Park stations lately, but I remember them being very old looking, lots of wood, even on the platform walls. I assume they still are.
I just took a look at the official MTA schedule for Saturday mornings. The Rock Park shuttle runs every 20 minutes (more or less) and the Far Rock A runs every 16 minutes. So there isn't even any synchronization at Broad Channel. And the shuttle trip is 12 minutes long. So you'd think with 2 shuttle trains they could do a trip every 16 minutes so that they matched up.
Even when the C did run to Rockaway Park, the headways were 20 minutes. Every other train would terminate at Euclid Ave.
Rockaway Park riders aren't screwed by the headways, but by the need to x-fer to another train at Broad Channel. From experience, the Far Rockaway A has few if any seats left by the time it arrives here. Which is why I again say that sending ALL A trains to Rockaway, alternating between Rock Park & Far Rock would be the simplest way to eliminate this unfairness.
Rockaway Park riders aren't screwed by the headways, but by the need to x-fer to another train at Broad Channel.
Exactly. 20 minute headways are not that horrible (yes bad, but I'm trying to be somewhat optimistic). It IS the need to transfer at Howard Beach where the problem comes in. Add the 15 minutes there, and that is where the possible 35 minute wait time comes in. At least when the C ran there, the worst possible senario was a 20 minute wait. The Rock Park riders really did get screwed when the C started having all the trains terminate at Euclid.
It's the bad service circle again. Service is so bad that less service is run. Less service is run, so less people ride. LEss people ride, so service becomes even worse, and even less people ride, and so on. It's almost the same idea as the LIRR Ronkonkoma to Greenport Branch. It's the same bad service circle.
"Rockaway Park riders aren't screwed by the headways, but by the need to x-fer to another train at Broad Channel."
Once again, an argument for sending the C to Lefferts in non-rush hours. In rush hours, there is direct service from Rockaway Park, and no need to transfer at Broad Channel.
This bit about whatever goes on that results upto 35mins on just waiting time is completely untrue.I've been through it more than 5 times already and I never had to wait at Broad Channel for an A train to Manhattan for more than 10mins.The 20min headway on the shuttle train is designed to not get in the way of an A train coming from either Far Rock or Manhattan and to arrive at Broad Channel ON TIME for the connection to the next arriving A train.
Now if you think that the Rockaway train service is bad? Try Green Bus Lines Q21 bus that runs from B116th St-Rockaway Blvd.It runs EVERY 80MINS!!! That's why that bus is practically EMPTY!! I know we're talking about trains here but I'm just using that bus route as an comparison.
Well, whatever the wait on the Rockaway Park end is, it's still pretty bad service compared to the rest of the system. As for the bus from Beach 116 Street - that figures - seems fitting for the poor transit that area gets! Those people really do get screwed from all angles don't they!
I was thinking that maybe a bus from Brooklyn to the Rockaways would be one hell of a idea.Run it from Rockaway Parkway L train station to B116th via Flatlands Ave which then becomes 156th ave going into Queens then it follows the old Q21 route.I've looked at the maps and it can be done.
Now that you brought up the Q21, it should just be cancelled. I rode it once and I only HAD TO WAIT 15 minutes. Had excellent speed the driver hit 70-75 mph but it had like 6-7 people on it.
But back to the subway, ridership is low because lousy waiting times turned people off from it & they use the buses & they're headways aren't so hot neither.
Not a bad idea, *except*:
Within the next year, the AirTrain will open to Howard Beach, the station for JFK. At the moment, having the AirTrain connect into a 3 or 4 tph service is absurd, a completely inadequate service for the city's major airport. On top of which, when returning to the airport, out-of-towners have a 50% chance of getting on to the wrong train, since both Far Rock and Lefferts are As. With Cs extended to Rock Park (a good idea in itself), the Howard Beach daytime service becomes all the Cs plus half the As, even more confusing for airport travellers!
If NYC is going to be serious about encouraging airport users to use the subway, then calling the Lefferts service something other than A (whatever frequency it ruins, and regardless of whether it's local or express) is really necessary. And it is also essential that the subway service at Howard Beach should be not less frequent than once every ten minutes, except in the middle of the night. If ten minutes is too frequent for Far Rock, then either terminate some As at Howard Beach, or send some As to Rock Park to replace the shuttle.
Instead of having the A train go to both Lefferts Blvd and the Rockaways, why not have the C train extended from Eucilid Ave to Lefferts, while having all A trains go to the Rockaways?
What are the numbers of passengers entering the system on the Rockaways branches, the Lefferts branch and between Euclid and Hoyt-Schermerhorn? Any rerouting should seek to equalize loading and thereby optimize service.
I think that this would make anyone riding the A train (particularly anyone going to JFK) not have to worry about which train to wait for.
There are plenty of ways to eliminate the confusion of the signs without imbalancing load levels between the services. Having correct destination signs is not a NYCT priority - it should be.
Actually, running both A lines to either Rockaway terminal and the C to Lefferts would do more to balance loads than the current pattern. The Lefferts Blvd. spur certainly has more patronage than the Rockaway Park branch, and the C hardly runs at capacity. Once people from Lefferts Blvd. realize that a ride on the the Fulton St. local is only a frew additional minutes longer than the express to Manhattan, the C should see it's paronage rise, and the overburdened A should get a break.
Didn't someone say something like that about the V line?
Exactly. People have gravitated towards the V, easing the load on the F.
I think it would be better to RENAME the Lefferts-bound A to a different name, say the K or H...That way, Ozone Park riders still have their express train, and JFK riders won't have to get confused.
Or maybe, run all r44s to the Rockaways and all r38s to Ozone Park...
Either way, all C's run to Euclid.
Comments?
Where would the K go the other way?
Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx.
That might almost make the "K" sign I saw today at the 97th and CPW station entrance accurate.
Yup, that sign is still there.
It's just a thought that came to mind. What would you like them to resemble? An Arnine, redbird, or Acela? All thoughts and speculations on the matter welcome!
It would be nice if they resembled red birds...something like an r142 crossed with a red bird would be cool.
i would like them to resemble the T-1's.
No clue, but we have another 20 years to think about it...
No clue either, as to how my last post got a 2nd Ave. Subway title.
However, that poses another hypothetical question: What will come into existence first - the 2nd Ave. Subway, or the replacements to the R62's?
I'd prefer to believe that we would at least have the stubway part of it by then. Good thing fantasies are entertained here. :)
No clue either, as to how my last post got a 2nd Ave. Subway title.
Netscape 7 strikes again!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, that was the culprit.
I usually prefer Netscape, but will use MS Explorer for this board from now on.
If you prefer Netscape revert to 4.79. If you need directiosn on how to move your e-mail files, address book, bookmarks,etc. e-mail me off-site and incldue the version of windows you are using (95, 98,98SE, Me, XP, etc.)
I reverted to 4.79 whioch I never deleted due to compatibility issues with Netscape 6.x and 7.0.
Tried Opera for 5 minutes and it was buggy and was deleted.I will stick with Netscape 4.79. IE? Swiss Cheese has fewer holes. I dont want to downlaod a new patch each week.
I have Opera on my hard drive running Winddws 98SE and it works. Tried it on my hard drive running Windows XP and it was dysfunctional. Netscape Communicator 4.78 does work well with Windows XP.
#3 West End Jeff
And Netscape 6.2 works pretty well on a Mac - OS 9.2 or OS 10.1.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I tried Netscape 6.2 and I didn't care for it too much.
#3 West End Jeff
I had problems with 6.2 also, but Netscape 7.0 seems to work pretty well, and the e-mail set-up for multiple users is much better than previous versions. Of course, since I've only had it for a couple of days, if there are any bugs (common to any x.0 version), I'm sure they'll come out soon.
So far we found that 7 copies and holds thread titles. That seems to be the major Subtalk/Bustalk problem, but if it does that (which two posters discovered and subsequently replaced with an earlier version.
That bug alone is worth avoiding 7.
I had that problem with the 7.0 preview release edition, but not so far with the regular 7.0. But as I said, it's only been a couple of days, so the bugs may show up soon...
I download Netscape 7.0, but I'm not using it at this time. I'm using Netscape Communicator 4.8 and Opera 6.04.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm using 7.0, IE 5.5 and Opera 6.0 with the Javascript disabled for browsing those websites that have those thousands of annoying pop-up windows (yea, I'm talkin to you, New York Post...)
I installed Privoxy to deal with those pop-ups. It works wonders. It's very configurable, so you can keep pop-ups (and whatever else you've disabled in general) where you need them.
I'm just curious -- what did you find wrong with Opera?
I had been using it for a few weeks when my hard drive had a minor crash. All of a sudden Opera wouldn't work, even if I reinstalled it from scratch. One of the support guys investigated my case, and, after a few back-and-forths, he identified the (very obscure) problem and fixed it in that day's beta.
If you liked Opera and all that turned you off was a bug, it might be worth your while to report it -- you may well end up with an Opera without the bug.
(Of course, if you didn't much care for it to begin with, then forget it.)
It was slow, locked up my PC (128MB-32 MB video), 1.2 Gig Pentium IV. Opera's big gripe for me is lkack of support by web sites. before reveeting to Netscape 4.79 many sites for financial info (banks, etc.) would insist on Netscape 4.79 or IE 4,5, or 6.
With Opera, even the uninstall was buggy and wouldnt uninstall. I finally deleted the folder and used tweakUI to remove from the Add/Remove Programs. I plan on editing the registry to remove the last of Opera.
Sorry to hear about the uninstall problems. I'm very surprised it was slow -- one of Opera's biggest selling points is that it's lean and fast.
One problem is, indeed, that some web sites insist that everyone run a recent browser (not that it makes a difference 99% of the time, nor should it ever make a difference), and assume that anything other than IE and Netscape must be old. (The day I installed a brand new beta, I went to a web site that insisted I upgrade my browser. I told the webmaster that my browser was released less than 24 hours earlier; did he know of a newer one? I didn't get a response.) But, indeed, that means that, as a practical matter, it's impossible to get by with just Opera. No big deal, IMO, as it's impossible to completely uninstall IE on a Windows machine anyway. So I use Opera when it works and IE on the rare occasion it doesn't (for stuff like banks -- when I went to cvs.com to look up a nearby store's hours and learned that I couldn't access the side with my "old" browser, I took my business to Duane Reade instead).
BTW, I can use Opera without a problem with Windows 98SE, but it is dysfunctional with Windows XP.
#3 West End Jeff
How about a unit that resembles the BMT Multi-Section cars.
#3 West End Jeff
If you guys thought the F train GO 2 weeks ago was bad, ride the 2/5 one & you'll know what i'm saying. All I got to say is MASS CONFUSION. Man, I got a story to tell.(I'll put the buses that I saw & the depots that operated on it in another post)
Ok, I start out by taking R68 2903 on the Q from Newkirk Av, go to Atlantic Av take R62A 1959 on the 3 to 135 St, since I missed the previous 2 & I was not waiting on that hot platform. At 135, I wait for the 2, which I ride R142 6745 to 149 St. Now here's the bus part:
I take the express bus, artic 5484 via the Bruckner to E180 St station.Very good driver, too bad most (or all) artics has a 40 mph limit. Buses after the Tremont Av exit went down Tremont all the way to White Plains Road then turned on Morris Park Av to E180 St [probably for safety reasons & to be in front of the station.] So I decide to ride the local to see more buses. So I get on hybrid 6359 and the entire ride to 149 St was SLOW it didn't go faster than 20 mph literally! This was because of slow traffic plus the Hub reconstruction.
So to make it up I decide to take 2 more round trips but expresses only. I get on RTS 9200 and things got even more stressful from here. Ok, the exp. turns on 149 from GC goes up Exterior St to the Bruckner then Tremont, WPR, & Morris Park. This driver nearly got us lost, top it off with bad a/c, a guy w/no teeth who was maknig a fool of himself and the driver is going UNDER the speed limit of 50 mph(he hit 50 at one point but he went 30-35 most of the time). He turns on 138 St, somehow he ends up on the Major Deegan, goes the wrong way, U turns onto the NB Major Deegan gets off at Yankee Stadium runs down 161 St goes back down the wrong way on Bruckner then we go around & we're back to the 'normal' route.
Then I got on RTS 8926 towards 149 St & the ride is good but I was stressed out already but I continue my trips promising myself to do 3 round trips or I would be disappointed. Then I ride RTS 8385 to E 180 & this driver was awesome. It sounded like he went 60-65 mph on the Bruckner & was the best driver I had (should of said thanks but I went through the back door). I was hoping to ride a brooklyn depot bus but I just missed 5114 of FB, so I took the next bus, artic 5372 back to 149 St. Had wonderful a/c.
Then its back down to the train where I wait for the 4 & I take R62 1611 to Atlantic, rather than waiting for the 2 at 149 St to catch the Q, where I board R68 2768. Since trains were skipping Newkirk, I had to go to Kings Hwy & wait for a MB local. I get to Kings Hwy, as I get out the train, a MB arrived & the people are just taking their time & this pissed me off because these dumbass people (pardon my language) crossover & it ends up leaving & we had to wait 10 minutes for the next train, which was a R68A, which I boarded 5020 and I went home.
Best driver: Driver of 8385 excellent driving. Might of picked 5484 had it not been for the speed cap.
Worst driver: Driver of 9200 for driving under the speed limit on the Bruckner, going the wrong way & making the passengers more frustrated than they already were.
Crazy story huh.
Going
R68 2903(Q)
R62A 1959(3)
R142 6745(2)
Buses I rode
Artic 5484 KB
Hybrid 6359 MV
RTS 9200 126
RTS 8926 MV
RTS 8385 QV
Artic 5372 GH
Coming back
R62 1611(4)
R68 2768(Q)
R68A 5020(Q)
This article repeats the findings from Newsday and raises some additional thoughtful questions.
So, is it smart to blame the T/O for speeding the train like that. I'm assuming he didn't know the limits and ultimately, caused his own death.
"So, is it smart to blame the T/O for speeding the train like that."
We can discuss and speculate on causes, but let's not blame anyone yet. Conceivably management urged him to try the train out at full speed, or at least didn't tell him to keep it slow around the curve. Also conceivably, the train was going faster than he intended for reason due to unfamiliarity, lack of training, etc.
And there's no reason for assuming it was the T/O's decision not to secure the load, which was almost certainly the cause of his death if not necessarily the cause of the accident.
And let's ALSO add that the victim was one of the more EXPERIENCED people on the project, according to the article. I'm sorry, but just like you don't floor the gas as you start into a curve, ANYONE who has EVER operated a train KNOWS that you don't maintain "ramming speed" into a curve, much less floor it.
I'm wondering if, in "manual mode," a deceleration command from the motorman was overridden by the computer. NOBODY, even the inexperienced would have deliberately run a train into a curve at full speed. That's something even newbies in school car know you CAN'T do. There's more to this story than we know, let's not judge yet until we have PROFF ... something is DEFINITELY not right here, and given that the "operator" *was* experienced with the train only suggests that something went horribly wrong here. We just don't know WHAT yet.
Kev, technically speaking, 50 mph is not 'full speed' for those cars....65 mph is (got that from the AirTrain tour).
There could have also been a track flaw involved aside from the excessive speed taken at that curve. BTW, the curve in question is NOT one w/ a severe radius (if it's the one prior to the Van Wyck Expressway ROW)...gotta take a look over there, but I'd hazard a guess that 50 mph on the curve where it happenned may not have been something unusual...
Ok, I see. I meant that as a question, BTW.
We will never know since the guy is dead.
>>> So, is it smart to blame the T/O for speeding the train like that. <<<
The articles in the Times and Newsday that I read did not seem to be blaming the deceased operator. It is certainly a legitimate question as to why he was going into this curve at near maximum speed, but the only thing I read in the article was his family loudly proclaiming he was not at fault. The investigation will have to determine if the test called for such a high speed, or if maybe it was malfunction of the control system that caused a run away.
Tom
As indicated, ANYONE who has the LEAST training in how trains work or any moving vehicle at speed (believe me, you need more skill at it that DMV requires for roller skates on rubber tires) would NEVER "go with throttle up" and live as long as the victim did. MY question would be "why was it at near 60 MPH going INTO a curve, you reduce LONG before you GET to the curve and MIGHT accelerate once you're IN it (being forever mindful of just how many cars and feet you have BEHIND you before doing so) ...
Something ain't right on THAT basis alone. Train Dude walked away with a post of his a day or two ago just on THAT basis without explaining why he said that, this should be OBVIOUS to anyone with any clue as to the dynamics of trains ... you don't "power up" until your tail car is IN the curve on its way OUT of it ... NEVER going into it.
The operator clearly was with the show long enough to know this. So the question was WHY was the train going that fast? I'm LEANING towards a mechanical failure ... similar to the Airbus planes that when you tried to do a "go around" decided to level off and fly into the trees anyway? I'm guessing that something with the speed control might have screwed up. But STILL I'm making no judgements here. All I can tell you is that NO PERSON in CONTROL of their train would have DONE that ...
You are assuming they had lots of practice on this thing.
I don't really think so, at least not on the outside portion.
I don't think these guys are even full time yet. Another article seems to imply he had other part time jobs that took up much of his time.
I think that it will be a combination of the balast, a young guy wanting to wrap it around and a company that never conceived of having to tell a person on manual mode not to go full speed. On the Newark train I believe manual mode is automatically speed restricted. Likelt they just disabled that function during testing.
That may be, but the articles *I* read also suggest is that he was the "wonder boy" called by management to escort WIGS ... now think to yourself who was called for the first 143 test runs. THIS was a "management perogative" of political connection. Those who were "trusted" got to play with the "new toys" first ... the "operator" of the (gack) "DEATH TRAIN" was one of the chosen. What that meant is that he was knowledgeable enough to give "show and tell" while operating and he was NOT giving "show and tell" ...
I have a good amount of experience with 20-somethings (I'm 51 for the record, a frumpy old man by some standards) and while they have some MARVELLOUS ideas and concepts if you can forget one's AGE biases, they are also not experienced enough to be EXECUTIVES ... sorry, NASDAQ. It's an acquired taste. The operator was certainly capabile enough of KNOWING that you don't go balls to the wall into a curve - even if you can TRUST it at a specific speed, you KNOW to do it in COAST until X cars are clear - that's what those dumbass R signs are for with carlengths ...
I'm gonna cut the 23 year old the benefit of the doubt. When *I* posted as motorman, *I* was NINETEEN!!! Granted, cleared to 20 a few days later but a 23 year old would have been a codger to me. Sorry, I know how these automated "thingies" should be and the speed SHOULD have been restricted to 30 according to Bomba's own people. If it was overridden, FINE ... maybe the "test" was SUPPOSED to be an "extreme test" ... but STILL, no motorman is going to hit a curve at full speed. Just AIN'T gonna happen. There SHOULD have been a panic BIE prior to the curve (THAT could have done it) when the train didn't decelerate by itself, there could have been a shorted control system that shorted to full speed and couldn't be stopped, all SORTS of possibilities here.
Forgive me if I wait for NTSB, there were just TOO many things that didn't happen right here and I *doubt* it was the operator's fault. NOBODY is that stupid and would have been able to run that train that way more than once without "crushing the cab" ... and I *know* you know what I mean by that ... something went SERIOUSLY wrong here. And again, I doubt it was the carbon life form ...
I should add, that as a personal victim of "the TRAIN phucked up" (upheld) I can attest that sometimes, the equipment CAN screw up. :)
No matter what Bomba f*ed up.
But the family is trying to make him into the John Glen of the rails. He was the go to guy for Bomba but if they considered his part crucial they would have paid him a bit more. Several of the CSRs did not want to do tests after the July incident either and he picked up the slack.
I wonder if either the company, the T/O or both wanted to test if a fully loaded train at speed could stay on the rails in the event of an overspeed malfunction? Given that there will be no driver, that is certainly a possibility to be afraid of.
I did think about that but it would seem weird (to me)to test weight AND speed for the first time in one shot. Also I would think they would do it in increments using three trains (lite, half weight and full weight) going 30, 35, 40, etc.
That's just me and most people consider me fairly reckless. As this is not the first AirTrain someone may have gotten cocky.
"I did think about that but it would seem weird (to me)to test weight AND speed for the first time in one shot. Also I would think they would do it in increments using three trains (lite, half weight and full weight) going 30, 35, 40, etc. "
Maybe they did. The trains have already been running in test for some time, so there has been enough time to do isolated variable testing. They may have already entered combination testing.
"That's just me and most people consider me fairly reckless. As this is not the first AirTrain someone may have gotten cocky. "
No offense, but it's a little presumptious for you to be sitting in judgment over people in a situation none of us on this board know enough about.
That's a nice way of asking you not to post bullshit.
Actually an eyewitness that is working near the station said they had never seen the train go so fast.
I also got the impression from something else that the loads had not been on the train that long.
So I don't think it was that unreasonable to think that they did not do that kind of testing. As the outfit is cheap can we safely exclude doing all this testing at night?
Bullshit implies I am making something up. My theories do have a some factual basis. The two elements that I am guessing at are that a person seeing a similiar project go without a hitch in the past may have not assumed the worst in designing a test (if going fast was even part of the test) and this is be supported by the fact that they changed part of their testing to save time and money (a very good guess). The other guess is that an overworked and underpaid young person might have taken a shortcut which combined with Bomba's error in loading the train proved fatal.
"Actually an eyewitness that is working near the station said they had never seen the train go so fast. "
We've established that. The open question is why, and the NTSB is helping figure that out.
"I also got the impression from something else that the loads had not been on the train that long.
So I don't think it was that unreasonable to think that they did not do that kind of testing. As the outfit is cheap can we safely exclude doing all this testing at night?"
So you, who I gather do not work at the PA, was not involved in this project, and know only as much as the rest of us do by media accounts and an eyewitness of the speed, got an impression - and that gives you the right to dismiss the PA as "cocky?"
Well, this is Subtalk - so anything goes. But it still reflects poorly.
"Bullshit implies I am making something up. "
Indeed you are. You haven't a clue as to just how the testing was put together, or what the sequence was, or who made testing decisions, or why.
"and this is be supported by the fact that they changed part of their testing to save time and money (a very good guess)"
Really? Based on what? Did you dream it at night? Did you see a vision? I don't see any such facts. The NTSB and the PA and Bombardier are looking for facts. We'll see the reports soon enough.
There's an old saying that goes something like, "Better to keep your mouth shut and have people guessing that you're an idiot rather than open your mouth and have it confirmed."
I NEVER said anything about the PA. Did the PA have a project called AirTrain which they built all over the place.
You concede that the train never went that fast before BUT do not concede that they were not doing incremental testing? So the train went 50 whatever for the first time and with a full load but somehow they previously went 50 whatever with a lite or empty load and the person that works there every day di not notice?
I stated how I might construct the testing and that they did not do it that way. I also said even my way was not conservative enough.
Actually they did change the testing methods it was gone over in the physics related discussion. The went from metal plates to concrete which happened to change the center of gravity of the AirTrain. Now there may have been a legit reason to change the testing material and center of gravity but it also turned out it to be easier (CHEAPER) and that came out also. I was offered and turned down a job with AirTrain, I KNOW they are cheapskates.
"You concede that the train never went that fast before BUT do not concede that they were not doing incremental testing?"
I'm not conceding anything. How do you know that wasn't just the operator joyriding? Or a failure in a subsystem that hadn't failed before? Or something else? That's why there's an investigation.
"Actually they did change the testing methods it was gone over in the physics related discussion"
Nothing was gone over in the Subtalk discussion except for a review of physics generally pertinent (we hope) to the accident and the fact that weights were unsecured. You're talking about people speculating over newspaper articles.
No one participating in that discussion knew anything about specific test plans or anything else.
"I was offered and turned down a job with AirTrain, I KNOW they are cheapskates."
Maybe thatr's good. Had they hired you, they may well have been overpaying. :0)
This is the third post in a row that you have gotten personal.
No, only the first. I did make reference to an old saying in a previous post for you to study. Whether or not it describes your posts depends on what you do. More reasoned posts might help. I can respect you as a persn, but your posts don't lend credence and authority to whast you say. They have made you look silly.
The smiley face was there to show you that I wasn't being entirely serious. I apologize if you didn't take it that way.
There is nothing wrong with accelerating while in a curve (that's quite sound, in fact), but as Train Dude says, the vehicle (meaning the last car of the train) must have entered the curve first, before you do that.
>>> This article repeats the findings from Newsday and raises some additional thoughtful questions. <<<
Newsday has a similar article that was even more inclusive of possible causes.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-air1006,0,2424761.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines
(The link is from Google News, and when I tried it in the preview mode it did not work the first time, but did the second time.)
Tom
Thank you for posting that, Stephen. So we now know from the NTSB that the weights were unsecured.
The operator's father's reaction is natural and not unexpected. But it is important that the NTSB report exactly what occurred. If, based on the facts, the operator shares respoonsibility due to his being in control of the train and its throttle, so be it.
As you have stated, the NTSB will decide this issue.
Once the Air Train goes into service (whenever when that may be now) will there be an "EMPLOYEE" on the automated train. I can't believe there will be on one to take over in case of an emergency?
No, there won't. Newark AirTrain operates without a human on the train. It isn't necessary.
Your fear is illogical - the accident occurred while a human operator was working. One might conclude that AirTrain should prohibit anyone from operating the train, in case he screws up.
Maybe I am just old fashoned. What happens if a crowded train half way between JFK and Jamaica goes BIE? No operator on board to help.
"Maybe I am just old fashoned. What happens if a crowded train half way between JFK and Jamaica goes BIE? No operator on board to help."
Doesn't have to be. Control center will release the brakes by remote command and move the train, or dispatch a "rescue" train. In either case there would be no difference in procedure compared to a problem with an elevated train.
A man was recently arrested messing with the controls to Newark AirTrain; workers reached him very quickly.
Automated trains which run unescorted include Atlanta's airport train, Newark AirTrain, Tampa's terminal shuttle, and (I believe) the airport train in Houston.
But the automated equipment doesn't pay union dues.
"But the automated equipment doesn't pay union dues."
Must have chirped and paid somebody off on the way out of the factory.
:0)
At the time I was out there, the plan was not to have full-time operators. There will be roving Customer Service Reps who will get on at a station, ride one or more stops, get off and then board a different train. I don't know if those plans have changed (or even if they've thought about changing them yet) after the accident.
I think you mean this link instead?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/trib/20021006/lo_newsday/safety_on_the_line
(Note: The RDC and SPV may have certfied by the ICC, since the FRA did not exist at that time. Also thet WP should have gotten Don Phillips to review this aricle before it gone to press. Mr Lindsey Layton seems to cover regional rail matters, and Don covers Class 1 railroads. Here is the article.)
D.C. Assesses Self-Propelled Train
Inexpensive Locomotive-Free Rail Car Runs on Existing Track
By Lindsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 6, 2002; Page C12
The train idling on Track 11 at Union Station last week stood out among the Amtrak Metroliners, not because of its gleaming maroon-and-gold body or glass dome windows. What set it apart was what it lacked: a locomotive.
The $2.9 million train is a new type of transit vehicle, a cross between a bus and a commuter rail car, and a top District official says it holds great promise for improving transportation in the city.
"We're looking for simple, inexpensive solutions like this one, that we can use to jump-start new service," said Dan Tangherlini, the District's acting director of transportation, who inspected the train as part of a four-day "Railvolution" conference that began Thursday and drew hundreds of transit officials and planners to Washington.
The train, manufactured by Colorado Railcar Manufacturing LLC, is self-propelled, that is, it runs without a locomotive because its engines are built into the body of rail cars. Inside, the train has the appearance of a luxurious Metro car -- the operator sits in the cab, and the rest of the vehicle is filled with seats on either side of an aisle.
The system, known as diesel multiple units, is the first of its kind to be built in the United States and approved by the Federal Railroad Administration.
The new rail car is less expensive than traditional commuter rail, which consists of a locomotive that costs an average of $4 million and rail cars that cost about $1 million each. The diesel units can run on existing track, unlike a light rail system, which requires construction of electrified track. And it can run on the same track used by freight railroads, a flexibility that is becoming increasingly important as commuter railroads seek to use freight track.
In the District, Tangherlini said the self-propelled train would be a perfect way to launch the "Anacostia Starter Line," a 7.2-mile transit line that would begin in the District's poorest neighborhoods in Southeast, cross the Anacostia River and connect with the burgeoning jobs and residences along the Southwest waterfront.
District officials envision the Starter Line using light rail, the modern equivalent of streetcars.
Until the $310 million Anacostia light rail system is built, the District could run self-propelled trains as an interim step, operating them on an existing freight railroad between the Minnesota Avenue and Anacostia Metro stations, Tangherlini said. "This would jump-start the Starter Line by tapping into the existing infrastructure," he said.
Manufacturers can provide the District with the diesel units in 18 months -- a fast turnaround, Tangherlini said. Each rail car has 90 seats and can carry a maximum load of 254, including standing passengers.
Diesel multiple units can be found in Europe but aren't operating commercially in the United States because they had not passed federal safety tests until recently. Colorado Railcar is the first manufacturer to produce a unit that meets federal standards.
Thomas Janaky, vice president for sales at Colorado Railcar, said the company is targeting emerging commuter rail systems that share track with freight trains. He said the diesel-fueled trains are significantly cheaper to operate than a standard locomotive and passenger cars because they burn less fuel. Each train has two 600-horsepower engines, compared with the 4,000-horsepower engine of a typical locomotive.
Commuter rail systems in California, Oregon and North Carolina have indicated they plan to purchase the diesel units.
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
(Note: The DMU will be back after Bergen County, and Newark 10-14 Oct. Railway Age magazine has a conference on 16 Oct 2002 and the DMU will be available. It is scheduled to demo on LIRR / Metro North / MBTA in May 2003)
>>> Each train has two 600-horsepower engines, compared with the 4,000-horsepower engine of a typical locomotive. <<<
Is that two power cars and how many trailers? How are they using just 1,200 horsepower to move a train which required 4,000 horsepower to move with an engine attached?
Tom
Details right here:
http://www.coloradorailcar.com/newdmu/brochures.html
>>> Details right here: <<<
I checked the specs in the brochure, and it appears the two 600 hp engines are in one power car. That means there is only one power car on a train, so I renew the question: How many trailers does a power car pull, and how does it do it with only 1,200 hp compared to an engine's 4,000 hp.
Tom
From my understanding of Colorado Railcars, two of the power cars are rated to pull one trailer. A single power cannot alone tow another trailer.
AEM7
>>> two of the power cars are rated to pull one trailer. A single power cannot alone tow another trailer. <<<
Then the statement that there were two 600 hp engines to a train in the article that Phil Hom quoted is obviously wrong. Thank you for the information.
Tom
Might be a misunderstanding ... like RDC's (and the design is FRIGHTENINGLY identical) there are two 600 HP motors per *CAR* ... if you follow my link and take a look at the bi-lvels, they show you the elevation schematic showing the two Chevy engines connecting to the wheels (RDC's had them on the TRUCKS) ... two powers for one trailer sound about right and BMT-like. :)
Tom, this might sound a bit strange but anything longer than about three cars demands a push-pull set. Now remember how much that power car was worth? If you have a four-car set, then it would have to be power, power, trailer, power. That's $7.5m for the powercars and another $1.5m for the trailer (total: $9m). Compare that to the cost of the push-pull sets: $4m plus four $1.2m trailers (total: $9.8m). But the push-pull would be much much cheaper to maintain.
I think that the Lindsey (which, incidentally, I think is a female) article might have referred to one-car trains, given that they were talking about a one-car DMU that is stabled in Washington Union Sta., in which case the writer is completely correct in stating that there were two 600hp engines PER TRAIN, since the train, as it stood at Union Sta., was only one car long.
AEM7
Is this like, some kinda math test? :)
It begs the question ...
How many first year engineering students does it take to change a
lightbulb?
None. That's a second year subject.
How many second year engineering students does it take to change
a lightbulb?
One, but the rest of the class copies the report.
How many third year engineering students does it take to change a
lightbulb?
Will this question be in the final examination?
How many nuclear engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
Seven. One to install the new bulb and six to figure out what
to do with the old one for the next 10,000 years.
The FRA has existed for a long long time. The ICC just preformed many of its current duties.
Article in the October 6, 2002 Washington Post talking about consideration/testing of diesel MUs for service here in DC.
As Yogi Berra said, "it's deja vu all over again ..."
http://www.monadrailway.com/gallery/RDC/BUDDRDC/
(the above link is to PROMOTIONAL MATERIALS from BUDD about the marvels of the forthcoming RDC's. Below are links to what they WERE.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/rdc_faq.html
http://cdnrail.railfan.net/BCBudd.htm
worse yet, the trackage IIRC is the ex-PRR freight bypass which used to have catenary. Where are those old MP54's when we wnt them(or more realistically elderly Silverliners)? The sad part is that when Don Phillips had this beat at the Post, he had the memory, Layton IMHO, is honest but not a veteran with the institutional memory. Heck there are defanged BUDDS at VRE.
But they're MAKING A COMEBACK and sold as "New TECH" ... hahahahahah.
I'm sorry, my eyes are lit up like a kid at Kissmoose. No wait, did that this past Kissmoose. And yes, ran RDC's MYSELF ... they're MOST amusing to run ... and the old straight air triple valve, along with the serpentine controller were very much LIKE an Arnine, except that instead they sounded *JUST* like a fishbowl BUS ... if I didn't have buddies spotting me, we'd have ALL been screwed. :)
But STILL, I'm really getting a hardon over all this "forward into the past" silliness. Heh.
Is this the DMU you guys were discussing in an earlier thread, the one that had 5 steps up to the aisle?
The article got it wrong: DMUs have been used in the US before. SEPTA used one on the R8 line to Newtown, did it not? And what about Cleveland's line to the airport (correct me if I'm wrong)?
Is this a cop-out which would allow DC to not invest in a new branch of the Metrorail's Green Line into Anacostia? Is the ROW not suitable for Metrorail? Last I recalled, Anacostia wanted more Metrorail service; there was no NIMBY issue.
The last time I checked, $310 million, even for light rail, didn't buy much of anything. The plan sounds a bit fishy to me.
I believe an expansion of Metrorail would be more appropriate. If not, the electric light rail in the right venues might work (I guess they're saying they have one, the railroad ROW).
But if they truly and sincerely want to install this, and come up with a realistic plan, all I would do is wish them luck, and watch them do it.
...DMUs have been used in the US before. SEPTA used one on the R8 line to Newtown, did it not? And what about Cleveland's line to the airport (correct me if I'm wrong)?
Yes, every now and then the press "rediscovers" the DMU, or the tilting train, or electric trains. As for Cleveland Red Line Rapid Transit to the Airport, that's a 600VDC overhead light rail vehicle built with high platforms. Not FRA compliant. Not diesel. Unless, you're talking about a past era when NKP was at the forefront of Cleveland railroading.
Is this a cop-out which would allow DC to not invest in a new branch of the Metrorail's Green Line into Anacostia?
A cop-out may not be a bad thing, depending on the freight levels that currently use the right of way. A commuter rail established with diesel rail cars is a much more cost effective option in terms of providing transportation than a new light rail. RDC's are capable of being operated at 15-minute headways, if the line is short and free of freight interference. RDC's are also more comfortable to ride in than shitty light rail cars. Railroads also traditionally command a higher revenue than light rail.
If there is significant freight traffic on that line, CSX ought to fight tooth and nail over this plan.
There is a way of sharing the railroad. If CSX constructed freight sidings at locations to be served, and use dedicated motive power for that branch, and construct infrastructure such that switching does not have to be done on the mainline, the line could tolerate a 15-mins RDC service (with occasional delays) and a healthy amount of loose-car freight. However, all those extra costs (sidings, dedicated crew and locomotives for the branch) have to be paid for by the agency proposing to run RDC's. After all, the ROW does belong to CSX.
AEM7
I like your post.
Indeed, CSX may not only fight the plan (if they think it screws with their business), they may even do what the Airlines tried, unsuccessfully, to do in New York to AirTrain: CSX can hire a lobbying firm to go into Anacostia, and say to black opinion leaders: "White honky's plotting to build a filthy diesel train in Anacostia which will cause cancer and emphysema, while whitey gets to use Metrorail. They're doing this so you'll gratefully accept a substitute for real mass transit without their having to spend any money on you."
Not something that I would condone, but CSX management has a mandate to run a railroad and make money; they do not have a mandate from their board of directors to cross every t and dot every i when dealing with an already disenfranchised community.
I am not saying they will do this. I'm saying it is an option on their menu, and there is no powerful agency like the PA there to tell them, "If you don't knock it off I'll make you wish you had bnever decided to run an airline."
"If you don't knock it off I'll make you wish you had never decided to run an airline."
Of course, substitute "railroad" for "airline"
every now and then the press "rediscovers" the DMU...
Tony Macrie, president of Cape May Seashore Lines, went to Trenton to tell NJDOT about Budd RDC's when they realized electrification of the Camden-Trenton light rail line would be too expensive. So they are buying DMU's from Germany.
SUBTALKLIVE IS NOW IN SESSION
http://chathamsquare.cjb.net/
HURRY UP
?
I thought Americanpig was the one who runs Subtalk Live.
AEMQ
CJB.NET ... THE *ULTIMATE* host of hackers, crackers and the nastiest virus producers on the PLANET. Porn sites, secret trojan downloads, the place to be ... If it's MALWARE, it's hosted THERE. And their server's been hacked for MONTHS. :)
Seriously, cjb.net is where we find MOST of tha nasties infecting the planet. Yeah, I'd want to host a site THERE. NOT.
thats the link u go to evry time u use subtalklive
I jusr came back there. No one there 'cept WMATA and some other person. I would go there Saturday nights but I always forget.
I don't care - I don't do "chat rooms" ... we PAY people to hang out in those places with our "lab rats" ... but seriously, cjb.net is the ONE place you can count on getting a dose, even if you live inside of SIX rubbers. :)
But hey, folks wanna get nasties, that's what I make *MONEY* curing. :)
thats nice
but evry sat.night thats where u go
BTW
WMATAGMOAGH is trying to get rid of it
Nope ... I don't ... seriously ... find a RESPECTABLE provider and maybe the chat wouldn't have ended. I'd worry more about "Homeland security" myself - that's a WELL KNOWN "Al Qaeda" "net host" ... :)
y dont u let some1 else confirm that
Here U go ... have phun.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cjb.net+trojan
http://www.google.com/search?q=cjb.net+hacker
Just keep clicking through the list, next, next, next ... whine if *U* wanna, I do this for a LIVING ... CJB.NET accounts for about 65% of all the hack attacks on people's computers. Sorry, but CJB.NET is *THE* largest resource for virus writers, remote control trojan and other miscreants that's existed. The ONLY reason they're still lit is for law enforcement purposes, except that like most OTHER political entities, they are *CLUELESS* ... but finally, owing to the sheer VOLUME of nasties on that web/net host, they're FINALLY catching on and bot'ing it.
Lemme put it THIS way ... there's over 2.6 MILLION respectable 'net hosts. They are NOT one of those. Moo. Mud.
than y is that where subtalklive is hosted
WEll then ... that explain why so many subtalkers have all these Klez's and other treats ... sory, dewd ... u just don't seem to GET it. Have phun, be 'l33t' ... my bad in mentioning it.
"y dont u let some1 else confirm that"
This sounds like a certain someone claiming about getting harrassed by TA police and train crews about taking pics from a motorman's cab.
It hasn't ended and still goes on. The host was chosen by the entire CHS staff. If you wish to suggest a move, please e-mail me.
wats ur address
BTW, I do have a respectable provide: Webstrike Solutions. The whole CJB.net thing was implemented by other members of the Chatham Square staff as a temporary solution. I have all the files and when I get around to, I'll put the page back at boarshevik.com/subtalklive.com where it used to be.
Works for me ... just wanted to let anyone interested know what "cjb.net" is ... might as well answer SPAM. :)
He helps out, as do Tevi and myself. "Fuzzywuzzy" is not a staff member.
im for democrocy
not for some internally decided communist government
i think that if we wanna chat u should leave the chat room open with a main gathering on sat.
We had ELECTIONS.
But even so, the chat room is a private venture, and if you don't like it, you don't have to come and visit.
when did u hav elections
when do ur terms end
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/06/magazine/06LIVES.html
Thanks for posting that.
Hats off to all involved.
WMATAGMOAGH IS TRYING TO CLOSE IT
SUPPORT IT NOW
COME AND CHAT UR HEAD OFF
Click here
Chatham Square is not closing. Please look here for announcements about the next chat.
y dont we go to catham square and discuss this issue
I followed your urgent instructions to click here. This is the message I got:
Chatham Square is closed. Chatham Square will be open again next Saturday at 7:30 ET. Look for announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk. Thank you.
WMATA closed it cuz he was pissed
Po'ed or not. It's closed until next Saturday.
make a different chat room
24/7
any1 can go 2
good for catham square
if they r closed chat somewhere else
I can wait until next week. Can you?
Obviously, he can't.
I never thought so.
Good. That means the changes I made worked. Access to the room will be reestablished at a predetermined time.
I like this idea
Quick question. The M-7 are made by Kawasaki? And how many are they making? And are they going to Metro North as well as LIRR?
Bombarier and I believe MNRR is getting their own version of the M7 but I am not sure.
yea but not till 2004. :(
Yay!!! The ACMUs stick around until 2004!!!!!!!!!!
MNRR was not allowed openable hopper windows so as to conform with the LIRR's, so I doubt they will be any differences bewteen the two. The LIRR should get 696, which will not replace all the M-1's, contrary to what everyone says.
According to bombardier's website, the total amount in manufacturing of m-7's is 192 cars with an option order of 808. total of 1000 M-7 railroad cars. the order will be split evenly between the two agencies.
The M-7's are built by Bombardier, and yes some of them are going to Metro-north, but they have a different braking system. I think the number built is some where around 860.
Metro-North & LIRR will be receiving these units.
-AcelaExpress2005
thank you. for some reason i thought they were being made by Kawasaki.
Diversion #1: Shuttle trains replace service between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Blvd
Weekday, 10 AM to 3 PM Mon to Fri
Weekend, 8 AM to 4 PM, Saturday, Oct 7 to Nov 2
Does anyone what kind of work is being done here?
Not sure, but I'd guess that it's related to construction work at Howard Beach for the Airtrain terminal.
Construction work on AirTrain stations will continue during the NTSB investigation.
Now see,that kind of G.O. is the most stupidest one I've ever heard!
The A runs to Far Rock every 15mins on the weekdays and 20mins on the weekends!So why the hell are they gonna run a shuttle train with the same frequency between trains!? That's just plain stupid!
How many of these original (J),(M) and (L) subway cars went to the (N) line. Can anyone tell me the numbers?
I hope you (N) train riders aren't complaining about getting "hand-downs", because I love the R40's/R42's. If I was on the (N) line, I would rather have an R40/R42 train than an R68. I hope the (J)/(M)/(L) lines keep some of them. I love the R143's(and the fact my area gets to enjoy them first) , but that doesn't mean I want the R40m's/R42's to disappear from my (L) and (M) lines.
Since all trains now have air conditioning, the only important differences regarding the trains, as far as I'm concerned, involve:
1) Am I likely to get a seat (total train seating capacity vs. ridership level; car type can influence this)
2) How likely is the car to be friendly to the disabled (I am not referring to myself)? The R142 and 143 are best in this category.
3) How easy is it to get on or off a crowded train. The non-75 foot cars are best in this category, though the 75-foot cars, esp. the R68, have better lighting characteristics and PA systems. The R46's display (look at the F train) is not always very clear.
Right now, only the R40M's are being transferred over to CI Yard. I'd estimate that there are only 3 R40M trainsets left in ENY control.
The ONLY R40M that will stay with ENY for now will be 4460 which is coupled to 4665 and is door enabler equipped, unlike all of the other R40M's.
R40M's are MIA from the J line in recent weeks. I hadn't realized so many were sent to Coney.
During the weekend, there were actually 2 trainsets in service on the J. Have to admit, CI Yard is getting some good speedy trains. They'd fit perfectly on the Q express.
I had a set twice last Monday(9/7/012) on the J. It was the same set both trip back to trips. I saw 2 more sets on the J that day and had and saw two sets on the L last Thrusday and Fri on the L. I don't know if they were the same sets or not becouse I did not get the Numbers.
Robert
Are all the R40M's in straight sets now? They used to be mixed up with the 42's, but I remember hearing here recently that they were starting to sort them.
Most of them are in Straight set, but I have seen one or two pairs mixed in to R42's sets. The TA don't like mixing R40's and R42's anymore becouse the Enable on the R42's won't work is there a set without it.
Robert
There are at least three R-40M sets left at ENY. I rode a Z this afternoon from Chambers to Sutphin and passed three sets (all on the J/Z, IIRC) going towards Manhattan. There may have been more that I didn't see.
Haven't seen much of R42/40M on the N just an old usual equipment of R68, Slants, and R32.
The French Connection R-42s 4572-4573 were originally assigned to the N when they were new.
And they persist on the "L", three trips out there I have seen them three times.
wayne
Maybe we'll get lucky next week.
As far as I know, CI has 4450 to 4477 with the exception of 4460 (at ENY mated to 4665) and 4461 (victim of the WillyB crash).
4461=4260, I believe.
wayne
I know that the N will get the brunt of the ENY cars along with the diamond Q.
i ride the Q and have two questions on dekalb av:
1.i see an R110 conductors indicator board in the station,were the R110B runing there at one time.
2.as the train leaves the station,i see an old station(after dekalb av)i look at sites with info,but they don,t have any info on this station,what station is that,when did it open,what line went to that
station and when was it abandoned.
til next time
That is the old "Myrtle Ave" station that was there after Dekalb. It is on Joe Brennan's site (I don't know what the address to that is off hand, but do a search in google or something for abandoned stations and the site has "columbia" in it's address. It may even be linked from this site, I don't remember.)
Only one platform still exists (It used to be two wall platforms), the other was removed when they added another track through there.
If you're talking about the southbound trains, as the train is making the left hand turn there is the old platform at Dekalb. That was abondoned when the platforms were extended at the north end.
If you're talking about northbound trains, as the train leaves Dekalb going to the Manhattan Bridge there is an abondoned local station called Myrtle Ave. On the other side of the tracks the platform was covered over. The only sign there now is some white tiles on the columns. That was about 1958.
When the R110's start running on the BMT, those signs are for train operators and conductors to observe.
>>When the R110's start running on the BMT, those signs are for train operators and conductors to observe
I don't follow that, what 110's are you talking about, there is only one and it hasn't run in a long time. The signs are left over from when that single train did run.
Maybe TA still plans to buy and use R110's in the future.
I don't think so. The R110's were the test/prototype trains for the new trains. The result is the R142's and R143's and in the future the R160's. There will be no more R110's, and it is highly unlikely that the current R110 A or B will run again, although it would be nice if they used them for the shuttles (although unlikely).
I hope the transit museum can arrange to hang on to them.
they did,and still plan to buy more... their called the R143 and the R160/160A.
BUT the B-division equipment (R-143/R-160) will be 60 feet long, so there will be no reason for separate conductor boards on the IND and BMT Southern lines.
If I remember, when the R110's were being tested, it was a 9 car train. The conductor's position was not in the middle. It was between the 3/4 or 6/7 cars. I forget the length. But the train needd a different set of boards than other trains.
The signs were plotted on the A Line, C Line, and the old D Line including the express tracks in Brooklyn too.
Why would they have a special sign for R110?
The Conductor's position was different on the R-110s.
David
Was not the R110 a 67' car, or am I incoreect in this thought?
Elias
You are correct, they were 67'. That's why it was a different number of cars than normal, and a different place for the boards.
The R110(B) only had 1 train set delivered and 3 of those cars(3007-3009) were used for parts & the remaining 6 cars that ran on the C is nowhere to be found.
The R110(B) only had 1 train set delivered and 3 of those cars(3007-3009) were used for parts & the remaining 6 cars that ran on the C is nowhere to be found.
if anybody is intrested in creating a 24/7 equivlent of subtalklive plz email me
it wouldnt compete and would automaticly show up as catham squre whn thats in session
it will allow more social activity between subtalkers and all transit enthusiaists.
It will have discussions bout any form of transportation used by the government. i.e. bus,train,plane
u get the idea
email dont post responses
I joined Peggy and others for today's Subtalk trip. And boy did we do alot! We rode the New Lots line, which was my first time out that way, and it really wasn't too threatening at all, only for some grafitti on the elevateds. Also rode the Franklin shuttle, which has been restored beautifully, too bad they have only a pair of lumbering beasts on that line. Also explored the construction of Atlantic avenue.
more later my power just flickered. LIPA is horrible.
LIPA (Long Island Power Authority) flickered (what a superb piece of news for BusTalk) deliberately, so that in addition to Long Island Bus, you'd have another Long Island entity to complain about.
And just so you can have another excuse to flame me.
I guess it's normal for your power to flicker at least twice a week and have buses run 30 min late. Well I always think we can do better.
Nuff said.
What real difference does it make if the power flickers? That's generally only transformers switching over to accommodate increased power usage, a completely normal occurrence. Is that absolutely necessary to post such pure nonsense here? And as to the buses running late, why don't you apply for the job heading the Nassau County Traffic Department, or whatever might be its proper name? It should be easy for you with your possible political connections, since the new County Executive comes right from where you live. You can then use your unlimited expertise in seemingly everything to solve all of Nassau County's traffic problems and then Long Island Bus will be able to operate its buses right on schedule. Why do you make it sound like delays are mostly LI Bus' fault? Speaking for the many LI Bus operators who monitor BusTalk, we are all damn sick and tired of your constant complaining about our operation. We do our best to provide a good service. You do your best to nitpick about every little thing you feel is not to your liking. While freedom of speech is one of the benefits of living in the USA, and you certainly have the right to say what you please, my suggestion is to think before you speak. Say something nice at least once in a while..... And remember, Nassau County is not the only place in the world you can live.
Joe, I think he mentioned his power problems to explain why he was about to cut his post short.
Yes I did because it happened as I was typing the message. I left alot of stuff out, but you did a great job of describing the trip, so those who didn't go missed out on some great fun!
And even though G.O.'s can be annoying, they offer some unusual sights (like slants on the W).
I have a feeling it is not good for the computer to have power go on and off, even though I use a surge protector. After I signed off, I tried to shut down the computer, and it crashed.
Perhaps this holiday I should ask Santa for a UPS! :-0
Hey the operators at LI Bus do a great job. It's not their fault the buses break down, or there isn't enough scheduled service.
And it would be my pleasure to correct Nassau county's traffic problems. Unfortunately, they probably once place "experienced" people in those positions.
When substations switch it should not cause such a drop in voltage.
If there were subways on LI, there'd be signal problems galore.
Yes, I enjoyed the trip quite a bit - and we did do a lot. The area around New Lots seemed to have improved quite a bit from the way I remembered it about 10 years ago, except for the graffiti at Saratoga Ave(I think) - the worst tagging at a station that I've seen in a while. It's a pretty interesting el - even if in terrible need of a paintjob.
As for the construction at Atlantic/Flatbush mentioned - that is some major project they are doing there!
Yes, New Lots is definately on the way up. It starting to look better than Sea Cliff/Glen Cove. And Atlantic is definately getting alot of work done. I forgot to mention as my power almost went out, I found that whole Boro Hall IRT and BMT mess the most time consuming transfers in the system, that complex is a MAZE! I sure hope someday the MTA can get around to improving it.
Yes, New Lots is definately on the way up. It starting to look better than Sea Cliff/Glen Cove.
I sorta think that if you traveled to N'Djamena, Chad, you'd think it was better than Sea Cliff/Glen Cove.
Where is N'Djamena? I don't get it.
Where is N'Djamena? I don't get it.
It's the capital of Chad, on the southern edge of the Sahara, one of the most remote and poorest places in the world.
I had a great time as well!
Here's a brief synopsis of where we went, including the unofficial tour extension and how I finished off the day:
We started at Penn Station, where we boarded a downtown R-62A 1 train. At 28th or 23rd, the C/R made a strange announcement, urging passengers to South Ferry not to move to the front -- I wonder why. We got off at Rector to look at the results of the rehab, which isn't entirely finished. We got on the next 1 train to South Ferry, where we went upstairs and crossed to the BMT station.
After looking at the artwork and waiting for Peggy to fix the tape blocking the Brooklyn-bound staircase, we caught an uptown R-68 Q (running via tunnel) to Cortlandt, where we had hoped to see the underpass. The underpass was closed due to the GO, so we got on the next train, an R-40 W (yes, they exist!), to go one stop to City Hall. We crossed the street to Park Place and boarded an R-142 2 to Brooklyn.
Our 2 train only announced the 4 and A at Fulton, so it was running the late night program, but at Borough Hall it announced the 4, N, and R. That's where we got off. First we descended to the BMT platform and took the elevator up to the secondary mezzanine. Then we retraced our steps and continue on the long walk to the southbound 4 platform. An R-62 4 took us to Nevins, where we looked at the underpass, and then we took the next train (I think it was an R-142 2 with 5 strip maps, running express due to a GO) to Franklin, where we took a quick peek at the shuttle connection and took a local (another R-142 2, I think) back to Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum, where Peggy showed us evidence of a closed platform exit, perhaps to the library. Then we continued (this time on an R-62A 3, IIRC) back to Atlantic, where we went on a full tour of the complex before returning to the IRT section and catching an R-62 4 to Utica.
At Utica we marvelled at the progress of the rehab, and after a long wait we boarded an R-62A 3. At Junius we got off to cross over the LIRR tracks to the L station, which happened to be closed due to a GO. We continued out to New Lots and returned to Utica, where we got off again so Peggy could show us the bellmouth for a once-planned line extension. We took the next R-62 4 (which sat in the station a few minutes after the starting lights turned on) to Franklin, where we crossed over (this time via the main mezzanine) for the final leg of the IRT tour, characterized by long waits (I suppose the GO in the Bronx forced greater headways than usual on the 2) and at least one train with 5 strip maps (probably also due to the GO).
We made three stops on the Flatbush branch. First we got off at Church to examine the artwork. Then we moved on to Newkirk, where we noticed that the southbound booth is only open part-time, and there isn't even an MVM. Finally we went to Flatbush, where we walked around the end to get on a northbound train.
Peggy offered to extend the tour to the Manhattan BMT, and John and I took her up on her offer. We got off at Franklin and took the shuttle (R-68, of course) to Prospect Park, where we left the system for a lunch break. When we returned to the platform, an R-40 Q train pulled in. (Yes! On a Sunday! The bulkhead signs were set to circle-Q but the side signs were set to diamond-Q. Lead car 4256.) We stayed on the Q through the tunnel to 14th, and transferred there to an R-68 W, which we only rode one stop. After a brief examination of the rehab work, an R-46 R pulled in, and we took it one more stop to 28th, where we stopped to see the work on the art display. We proceeded on an R-68A W to 5th Avenue (somewhere along the way an R-40 W passed us the other way), where there's a lot of artwork to be seen. Then we took another R-68A W to Queensboro Plaza, where the unofficial tour ended and Peggy and John got on a Flushing-bound 7 (on the lower level, due to yet another GO).
With the gorgeous weather and the prospects of more R-40's on the W, I wasn't finished. I figured I'd wait around a little while, hoping for another R-40 train, which I'd take to Stillwell (via bridge) and back (via Sea Beach express). I was in luck: I only had to wait a few minutes for an Astoria-bound R-40 W. I took it to Astoria Boulevard and crossed under to wait for it to return. I claimed the railfan window on the way down, but I've never seen such a badly scratched window. It occurred to me in Brooklyn that I'd be better off getting off at 62nd and waiting downstairs to get a picture. I took the first N (R-40) one stop for a change of scenery, and I hung out there for a while, taking pictures of lots of R-40's on the N. Except for one train of R-32's and one train of R-40M's, I didn't see anything but R-40's on the N. A work train passed on the express track. Eventually, as I was about to give up, my R-40 train came, followed immediately by an R-40 N, which I boarded. Naturally, the W was held outside 8th Avenue so the N could go first. There were no R's laid up on the NB express track, so the N ran express all the way from 59th to Pacific. At Pacific I transferred to an R-142 2 to take me back to Manhattan. This 2 train (which also had 5 strip maps) was signed outside for its usual terminus of 241st, but the interior displays correctly showed "149 ST-GC" -- anybody know why the outside signs couldn't keep up? At 72nd I caught an R-62A 1, which took me the rest of the way home.
Subway-buff, if you see this, please relay my thanks to Peggy. Sorry you had to miss a great trip. It was great to meet the rest of you!
I dont make the trips. I am the brains and Peggy does the legwork. I'll tell Peggy you enjoyed the trip.
As a heads up, She is planning four more trips:
$th Ave Brooklyn- N,R,W
Brighton and Culver
Eastern Division- J,M,L
Rockaways
Queens Blvd
I'll post more when I can get Peggy to stop running and make her use her brains!
back to Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum, where Peggy showed us evidence of a closed platform exit, perhaps to the library.
To answer the above, the following is from this site:
There is a second, unused mezzanine, token booth, and turnstile area at the north end of this station (a very close look at the tiles in this area will reveal a door to this area). This entrance has been removed on street level.
I believe the northern stairway of the unused mezz exited on the sidewalk and the southern stairway of the unused mezz exited into the park.
I can't believe you did all that in one day.
---Brian
I also attended yesterday's field trip with my dad we both enjoyed the trip and the knowledge of the other participants and especially Peggy who wasn't stumped by a question all day. Our day started at 5:20 a.m. from Rhode Island on our way the the Metro-North station in New Haven for the 6:57 which we made by 2 minutes. Being novices to the subway system we didn't know where the McDonalds was in Penn St. so we asked the ticket agent who instructed us out of the station to the McDonalds on the next block. The girl at the counter knew of the Mcdonalds at Penn and we made it there at 9:01 with no one from the trip in sight, we thought it was a wasted trip, then we saw Peggy and the other guys. We went the entire original tour and broke off after the Flatbush run and went to ESPN zone to catch the end of the game and a couple of beers ($7 a mug). We boarded the 5:34 for New Haven and arrive at my front door at 9:25. Quite a hectic day ,but entirely enjoyable.
We'd like to thank Peggy for taking the time to run the field trip and also for her patience and expertise in explaining anything we asked. We're looking forward to the next trip.
Yeah, that $7.00 beer sounds like Times Square. It's great that it has been cleaned up so nicely, compared to the disaster Times Square used to be. But with the tourists come the tourist prices. ESPN Zone is a great place to see a game though - alot of fun.
Looks like you really had a long day by the time you got home. It was great meeting you and your dad and the others. Maybe we can all make it to the next one.
Looks like you guys had the longest trip!
I believe the northern stairway of the unused mezz exited on the sidewalk and the southern stairway of the unused mezz exited into the park.
If you want to express your beliefs, you can give your own tour. This was Peggy's tour.
I can't believe you did all that in one day.
Then you don't know how to take advantage of (a) a good tour guide and (b) a Fun Pass.
Peggy says thanks and offers this comment. She said "possibly" or "could" or similiar words. All such words imply a degree of uncertainty. If you'd like to measure the length of the platform, slope of the stairs on the open end, height to the mezzanine, steps and slop form mezzanine to street at the open end and then adjust for the slope of the stairway measure the same number of feet from the end of where the platform would be if you pushed a rod up to the street.
Sure, it could be the park or there could (note I said could which itself implies lack of certainty) but do you know for a fact that there was no passageway to the library from the closed mezzanine area.
Peggy regrets if you feel mislead.
Perhaps the complainer is volunteering to do some surveying for us!
If so, we'll be glad to see his results and the proof that the closed end has the same elevations as the open end.
To the non-complainers Peggy says thanks. Peggy regrets not having access to the blue prints of the station to verify the info. Perhaps he is volunteering to find the blue prints!
I wish I had more energy that! Perhaps if I lived in NYC, I could've joined you on the W. But with the long ride home, I just had to catch some Z's.
I wish I had more energy that!
Wish I did too, but I still manage to do most of the things I want to do if I want to do it bad enough... I've been known to make the 10.5 hour drive through the night (after a good afternoon's nap) from my North Carolina home to Branford, arrive in time for breakfast with Sparky and the gang, spend the day operating, have supper with everyone, and then drive back to my New Jersey home - a total of about 28 hours from the time I get up until I'm contemplating my pillow once again. Or when I start and end in New Jersey it's still 20 hours from first stretch to ZzzzZzzzZzzz again. It's all in how important it is to you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gonna be a long week and a longest weekend for me. Today is Tuesday, my body feels Thursday.....have to plot out maps...have no idea where I am going Sunday. It'll be 239th yard Friday...ride to NJ...back to NYC Saturday night...WORKDAY routine Sunday at 4:45 AM to make the diner by 7:30. Hope you guys will put out beacons and have a 'talk-in frequency,' CI Peter is WB2SGT listening on 146.52 direct.
OK my power is still on. Anyway I had a great time and thanks to Peggy for the great trip.
Of course goin home, the bus was 30 minutes late, the drunks are LOUD tonight, and LIPA is acting up once again. No wonder why the A is so unreliable in LIPA powered Rockaways.
Of course goin home, the bus was 30 minutes late,
Don't feel too bad, my LIRR train was held for 20 minutes in Jamaica with the doors closed because of some kind of door problem. Speaking of Jamaica-another major project. I can't believe how much work they did there in the few months since I was there last. The new canopies are a much needed improvement, and they are much higher giving a nice open feel - and the AirTrain building is huge!
Yes I know! I han't been there for awhile and was amazed at the progress they made. I'm guessing the delayed train was an M-1, I hear they have alot of door problems. I guess it's just their age.
Hopefully the M7's will be alot more reliable than the R142's, since I don't see the oldest M1's lasting too much longer.
Yeah, it was an M-1, as I parked at Baldwin and took the Babylon Branch. In the morning there was no convenient train from Patchogue on the Montauk Branch to get to Penn at 9:00, so I drove to Baldwin. I didn't feel like driving all the way in and having to worry about parking around Penn, and Baldwin had easy parking. It worked out well, as I was able to get the LIRR right at Flatbush near the end of the tour.
A while back, I'm not sure whether it was on Subtalk or a subtalk field trip but someone said that the 3rd rail voltage in the Rockaways (A and shuttle lines) is somewhat lower, than across the channel in Con Ed territory. Is there truth to this? If it was true, it wouldn't suprise me.
Third rail requires more substation input per set distance than overhead catenary, so the voltage could drop over a distance if the Rockaways don't offer a substation (or enough substations).
If I have this completely wrong (I'm not an electrician) somebody please set me straight.
Are the Rockaways served by Con Ed or LIPA?
LIPA
Hmm, 3rd rail electric talk...
I am clueless to the issue on substations. I frequent the 7 ands I notice they're installing these new black boxes, with vents and everything. Are they substations?
All I know is that what they've been doing on the 7 for the last several months is part of their 'Sinal Modernization' Project.
There was a voltage problem when the city first took over
that line, which caused some car equipment limitations. I
don't think this is an issue today.
Standard 3rd rail voltage remains 600 VDC. The third rail is not a copper conducter like Thomas Edisons 'Steeplechase' but infact a substandard steel rail with known high losses due to the resistance of the steel and multiple buss bars/fish plates used in their interconnection. Brooklyn remains with sections of big losses...I have been repeatedly told that certain sections of the #7 line approach 700 volts. Trainsets are designed to run +/- 100 volts difference but older 'group box' DC traction motors will slow down on the lower voltages and take off 'like missles' unexpectedly on the higher side. There are some safety devices installed in the propulsion package but I know of no activations in TTs I have inspected. The AC motor propulsion packages of the R142/R143 trainsets use a 450 VAC traction motor directly controlled by the invertor which is more tolerant of voltage variations as the motor speed is controlled by tachometer sensors. CI Peter
This years Hoboken Festival was very nice but it had some of the earmarks of a rushed event, Normally NJT provides very detailed information about the rail equiptment on display. There were three cars in particular that I am trying to obtain information about.
1) Observation Car #364 Ohio River lettered for the Louisville and Nashville Railroad
2) Car numbered NJ 5456 Alex De Cruce and lettered for the New Jersey Railroad???
3) Pullman Car "Hickory Creek" and owned by the New Jersey Historical Transit Center.
Are the New Jersey Historical Transit Center and the New Jersey Railroad one and the same ?
Are the above cars owned by either of the above organizations?
Thanks in advance for any comments.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Ohio River is owned by the Morristown and Erie Railway. The Alex DeCroce is also an M&E private car. An outfit named Star Trak owns the Hickory Creek, which is an ex-NYC 20th Century Limited observation car later owned by Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey; it may be affiliated in some way with the M&E as it is apparently located in Morristown as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: Many thanks for that information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Leaving tomorrow, be back Wednesday night. Talk to you all then.
So where are you heading off.
Just got back, it was nowhere near any form of public transit. Actually, the most interesting form of transportation there was rockets and fighter planes. Does Wallops Island, VA mean anything to you?
HOLY S***! I wanted really badly to go down there the last time I was in Fenwick Island De, it isn't too far. I thought it'd be like a mini-trip to the Cape Canaveral or something, but sadly my parents, who always have the car down there, have shown no sign of either going, or letting me take off for wallops by myself. Last time really only my uncle (a real life rocket scientist, ex-SDI at the pentagon and so on), kept me from going, saying that there wouldn't be much activity or anything, just a bunch of empty lauchers and maybe a museum.
So I must ask, Is there much to see down at Wallops? I know it's only a sounding rocket range, but still, depending upon the payload an Energia could be a sounding rocket, not that they launch those there, or for that matter, anywhere else, but I still find anything larger than a bottlerocket facinating.
Eventually I'll get down there.
There was a visitor center of some sort but I didn't go to it. I was not there for seeing rockets and fighters although I did enter the NASA property on the island itself as oppossed to the one on the road to Chincoteague. From what I was told, they have 3 runways at this facility so they can do drills from Dover, one can be submerged to practice water landings, and one is long enough to accomodate a space shuttle. That is pretty much all I know.
I spent part of the weekend in Philly dancing Argentine tango. I rode the trolley through the underground. What safety mechanism is there to stop a trolley if it passes a red signal in the tunnel?
Michael
Washington, DC
What safety mechanism is there to stop a trolley if it passes a red signal in the tunnel?
I guess you didn't hear about the time when the trolley operators had to throw seats under the trolleys to stop them running into the trolleys in front...
AEM7
What safety mechanism is there to stop a car if it runs a red light?
I think the MFL has some kind of trip arm that reaches up from a device in the middle of the tracks to catch a piece of the train. The arm falls or is pushed down and I think it cuts the power to or from the third rail, stopping the train. The arm drops after the green signal comes, and allows the train to pass without interruption. You can see them quite well from the MFL M4 cars railfan window, they're the white, upside down L shaped thing that drops as the train approaches (hopefully). I think that they are only on the Frankford side of the MFL, becuase the 69th Street side is being converted to ATC or something. I suppose it's only a matter of time til the Frankford side is converted as well. Quite a while back Jersey Mike posted a story about a SEPTA T/O that went out the front door and reset a trip arm on a red signal, speeding his riders trip.
I spent the weekend in Philly dancing Argentine Tango. Saturday, I rode the M-F line to Frankford, #73 bus to Westmoreland Street, #15 bus to 63rd street. Walked up the street and caught the #10 trolley to Malvern, then to 37th street portal. Changed to the #36 and rode to the end, back to 49th street, caught the #11 trolley to the end at Darby, then walked up the hill to catch the #13 to 37th street portal, then #34 trolley to Agora. On the return, the trolley went dead. Actually, on life support. The operator couldn't get any traction power even though the MG was operating. (I could hear it hum.) I also heard the operator hum as in "HMMM. I wonder what's wrong.) Everybody left the trolley and the next trolley pushed it off the line to the 37th street portal.
I noticed that the tracks HAVEN'T been pulled up nor overhead taken down on the 15 route. If trolleys were taken off many years ago, why is the overhead still up?
I also noticed that there are alot of tracks and overhead up where trolleys don't go anymore. Are these tracks and overhead up in case of diversions, as today where subway-service was suspended in the tunnels due to overhead work. Supposedly, trolleys were detoured to the MF stop at 40th and Market.
Just wondering -- and a little confused.
Michael
Washington, DC
My error. It should be on bus talk?
Michael
My error. It should be on bus talk.
Michael
Why? We discuss trolleys a lot here.
I compare trolleys to buses. Above ground operations belong in bus talk. Below ground operation belongs in sub talk, based on my terminology.
Michael
Subtalk isn't interpretted that strictly or that literally here. In general, the practice is that rail is discussed in Subtalk, whether its underground, at-grade, or elevated, and rubber-tired transit is discussed in Bustalk.
Mark
The overhead wires and tracks on Route 15, as well as Routes 23 and 56, are still up because SEPTA claimed that they would be "temporarily" running with buses and said it would order new cars to be delivered in 1997. Of course they didn't order them and they shut down Luzerne depot in North Philly, which was the home of 23 and 56. 15 will see overhauled PCC trolleys running on it beginning sometime next year. 15 and Subway-Surface Route 10 will be based out of Callowhill depot in West Philly.
I was driving down Germantown Avenue yesterday and was thinking how cool it would be if trolleys still ran on that route. I can't imagine NIMBY's being a concern, as trolleys are a hell of a lot quieter and less filthy than busses. The Chestnut Hill area in particular is one of those obnoxiously-cute little business districts that just doesn't look right without a PCC trolley running down the main drag on a snowy December night. Norman Rockwell, eat your heart out.
I also noticed that the wheelbase of my car seems to match the guage of the trolley tracks fairly well... Are those tracks standard guage, or the wider Pennsylvania broad guage? Even though Germantown Avenue is made of rough cobblestones in some parts, it's actually a pretty smooth ride if you can get your car's wheels to ride directly on top of the rails. :-)
And speaking of cool driving/railfan experiences in Philly, I recently drove across the Ben Franklin Bridge in the right lane alongside a PATCO train. Cool! Along with the Manhattan Bridge in NYC and the Longfellow Bridge in Boston, the PATCO line across the Ben Franklin is one of a small handfull of very cool subway bridge crossings.
By the way, does anybody know what sort of construction work is being performed on the Ben Franklin? Each time I cross it, the east tower seems increasingly covered with scaffolding and black tarps. I'm guessing the bridge is getting a new paint job... It certainly needs it.
And in case anybody was wondering, things in Philly are going well for me so far... Much to my surprise, I actually haven't been very homesick at all for Chicago. I guess the time had really come for me to move on. The more I see of Philly, the more I like it. The city has its share of problems, but it seems to have a very cool vibe to it... I'm not sure how else to describe it. New Jersey is, well, New Jersey... But it's not bad, and at least I'm close to Philly and NYC. In a way, I think I've got the best of both worlds here. I'd probably feel more at home in an urban neighborhood such as University City or Germantown, but I can't complain about Collingswood. Being a pre-war suburb, it's not nearly as obnoxious as someplace like King of Prussia, PA or Naperville, IL. I'm a two-minute drive from work, which is in a pedestrian-friendly downtown, and the PATCO train is right outside the back door of my office. What more could I ask for? Besides that, I find myself over in Philly often enough for classes at Drexel and for church activites. (I've recently become involved with St. Mary's Episcopal Church, which is located directly on the UPenn campus, so I'm usually hanging around there most Sundays. I have to say that UPenn seems to have much more attractive women than Drexel!) It's not like I've become one of those suburbanites who heads into the city once a year for the July 4th fireworks or something; I actually make it into Philly very often.
And I'm already a regular at Jim's Steaks on 4th and South Streets... It's quickly becoming my tradition to head there after class on late Thursday evenings. I'll know I've become a true Philadelphian when the guy behind the grill recognizes me and knows my order by heart. :-)
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Next time you're going down Germantown Av try out the Trolley Car Diner in Mt. Airy. It'sa a friendly place; the chili is very good, and you can even get a very nice model Trolley there...
St. Mary's has some neat concerts in their back hall. In addition to Jim's Steaks, try Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market, just a block west of the 2nd Street MFL station. And yes, they do recognize me and know my order by heart there. :)
Mark
The Ben Franklin has been underconstruction to one degree or another for at least as long as I've been out here, about '98 or so. I thought they were painting it as well, at one point a smoking worker lit part of the cable on fire, but I think there may be something else going on there, maybe something like the Manny B. I've often wondered why PATCO and before that the Bridge Line never had the problems with the BFB that New York has had with the Manhatten Bridge?
I think that there is a Fan Trip coming up for the 23 with a PCC, I'm not sure if it's the whole line, Oregon to Chestnut Hill, or just the northern section. I have been dragging my feet, and I'd imagine that it's either sold out or very close to sold out. I suppose you could always just go up there and photograph the PCC running down the 23 in Chestnut Hill.
And yes, the Penn girls are, on average, better looking than the Drexel Girls, but Drexel is improving, some of my freshman peers of the female persuasion are not too bad looking. My problem is that most of the girls I see are Engineering Girls, I need to find some business or nursing girls. Still, nothing can be better than just strolling down to 40th St portal, through Penn's Campus, both Railfanning and oggling, does it get any better? ;)
If you check the current events of this board, you'll find the
Route 23 Fan Trip is on Sunday, October 27 and the first car is
sold out. The sponsor of the trip, the Rockhill Trolley Museum
are now soliciting riders for a second car, as was used on their
Route 23 trip in April. The trip will be as far south as Snyder.
So come join us, including this New Yawker on Sunday the 27th.
;| ) Sparky
Some photos of the Route 23 trip in April are on my Webshots Around Philly 2 page, and a lot more are on (literally) my last roll of slides page.
Thanks to Keystone Pete for encouraging me to make the trip.
They are painting the Ben Franklin.
I don't think it has the problems of the Manny B because the trains that use it run much less frequently, and are much smaller and lighter weight.
I can't complain about Collingswood. Being a pre-war suburb...
My parents moved to Colingswood from Philly in 1920 when they were 6 years old; my Dad from Mount Airy and my Mom from K&A (it was a decent neighborhood then).
Collingswood seems to be experiencing a bit of a revival, from what I've heard and seen lately. The Haddon Ave business district is making a comeback and even the seedier western part (along US 130) seems to be looking a little better lately.
As for K & A, it was a fairly OK neighborhood up until about 10 years ago, when it took the nosedive to what it is today. I recall the Kensington Ave business district as a thriving place when I had relatives in the area up until the late 70's. Unfortunately it appears to have lost the battle to drugs and prostitution these days.
I've misplaced the notice I received in the latest edition of the NY Division Bulletin. When is the Redbird B-Division fan trip ? What is the cost ? The address/telephone number for tickets ? Does the NY Division have a website ? Thanks.
I've misplaced the notice I received in the latest edition of the NY Division Bulletin. When is the Redbird B-Division fan trip ? What is the cost ? The address/telephone number for tickets ? Does the NY Division have a website ? Thanks.The Redbird fan trip runs Sunday, December 8th. Trains will leave 59th/8th at exactly 9:30 and run over B-division lines. Plans include a trip to Rock Park, the Culver, Brighton and West End up to Astoria. Drop-off station is supposed to be 57th and 7th.
Price is $45 is postmarked before Nov. 15th, and $55 afterwards. No Web site to visit, but call 718-784-3643 EVENINGS for details.
I'm still kicking myself for missing what may have been my last chance to see lower-9th Avenue last month on the Steeplecab tour, so I'm going to be on this one come hell or high water, and I'll have a few books along in case anybody's interested.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Well then, I think I have to put in an appearance! I haven't been on a fan trip since I worked at the Transit Museum....
-Stef
I promise to make a special appearance. Perhaps the Lady In Red should come too! We'd be blessed with an R-17 going along for the trip. Heh.
-Stef
Maybe a yellow one ?
Sure.
-Stef
Yes, I got the bulletin, HOWEVER, this is still not yet set in stone since NYCTA is charging a WHOPPING fee to run the special train...
With a rate of 55 dollars after November 15 and 45 before...attendance will be close to none I'd assume.
Well, gotta figure that NYCT is charging something in the vicinity of $11,000 to charter one of those babies for a day.
It ain't exactly a cheap ride.
BMT Man
Since your so defensive of this venture, will you be riding for $55?
BTW your triftiness preceeds you. >G<
;| ) Sparky
Ah....I've awoken the Trolley Meister, Sparky The Great!
Well, the price is one thing, but the timing is RIDICULOUS! Why have a 'Farewell to Redbird' trip when the cars are still in service? If they wait and do this kind of trip (Redbirds on unusual trackage -- mostly B Division) a year or so down the line, I'd bet it'd end up being a sold-out affair. But doing a trip this soon in the game doesn't make alot of practical sense....but then again who am I to judge?
So, were you planning on attending????
Whoa, hold it, and wait a minute...
What's so "ridiculous" about the timing? A year from now, we might have to have a farewell trip by renting everyone SCUBA gear. The trip is being held in the late fall, before it gets really raunchy outside but long after the subway has cooled off from the hot summer.
The price we were given for the trip is high, but it is makeable if we get good cooperation from the railfan community. If we don't, we will cancel the trip rather than take a bath financially (like the one we took with the Metro-North trip in 2000, which ran very well for the few of us who bothered to show up). Remember, the NYD runs trips not only for our members/subscribers and guests to have a good time, but to MAKE MONEY TO SUPPORT THE CLUB (dues don't even come close to meeting our expenses). If we cancel the trip, I don't want to hear anyone...I mean ANYONE...complain that the New York Division doesn't run New York area charters. You people want trips? Then support the ones that are offered.
As for the price being high, as another poster opined, I have two things to say:
1) We kept the price as low as possible given the high cost of running the trip. We didn't want to price the trip lower because the lower we go, the more people we need -- even with good word-of-mouth, there's a finite community of people who would go on subway trips. At the same time, we didn't want to price it higher for fear of turning people off.
2) Want to keep your cost to a minimum? GET YOUR TICKET(S) EARLY. Doing so also helps us decide whether or not the trip's going to run.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Do you know which class of cars will be used?
NYCT will be determining the consist, but since the train is going to be run on "Subdivision B" (BMT/IND), single R-33s will have to be on the ends because they have trippers that will work there (the other Redbirds don't).
David
True. If you get any more information, please let us know. Thanks.
My DeadBirds SMEE?
Are people aware that the Redbirds will tour the B Division lines, where 9 ft wide Redbirds rarely go ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh Goodie, we will travel the B division....... That means SPARKS GALORE!!!!!!! Cant wait to see the massive spark show......
I believe that this unusual trip to the Rockaways should have taken place back on 5-26 and not on 12-8. It's gonna be pretty frigid down the shore that time of year. However, I do plan to attend. Cold or no cold this will be a delightful treat. I assume 6 R33 WF Singles will be used from the 7? I'll be there with my #7 hat and bells on.
Look forward to seeing and meeting y'all there.
#9330 7 Flushing Local
I would be willing to pay the price, since it would be something I don't get to do everyday. What the heck, how often do you get an opportunity to ride IRT Redbirds to the Rockaways? We have some pretty interesting opporunities here, BUT:
1) The TA isn't in the Railfan Business. If the price is high, someone had to pay out the man hours for operating the equipment. You pay two T/Os, a C/R, a TSS. etc. Moving the Redbirds from the A to the B Division and vice versa costs money.
2) And yes the ERA has to find a means for paying its bills. The trip is an expense, may be it be done if there's enough interest. They cannot go broke just for a few railfans.
I sincerely hope the trip takes place. Redbirds are a dying breed, and that's reality. For this die-hard railfan, it's an adventure of a lifetime.
Cheers,
Stef
Stef, You hit the nail right on the head !
So are we going?
Sunday December 8th, one day before my birthday .... hmmmm.
I always buy myself a present when I get cash, sounds like a better deal then a new shirt < G >
I agree completely. We should be happy that the NYD ERA has organized the trip, not complain about its timing! I welcome fantrips anytime of the year.
Considering the Transit Museum charges $30 for a round trip to Coney Island with a 2 hour layover and an average round trip time of 2 hours, the $45 to ride the train ALL DAY could be considered a bargain. The MOD trips charged $40 - no one complained about that!
--Mark
Right, and for those who say it's going to be cold,
well duhhh they'll just turn on the heat !
Where do you sign up for this Redbird trip ?
Send a check or money order for $45 ($55 after November 15) for each ticket, along with a self-addressed stamped envelope, to:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorpororated
I would have loved to go, but Decemeber is way too busy at my job, especially at the beginning of the month. Oh well, hopefully there will be others. It does sound like a cool trip.
..."Ah....I've awoken the Trolley Meister, Sparky The Great!"...
..."So, were you planning on attending????...
It was something I was considering, since my scedule would allow me
to participate that Sunday. You know where I'll be for the four
post Turkey Day Saturday's. Either spatching or operating trolleys,
for the young & young at heart.
The cost factor is reasonable, if you read other posts cocerning what
is involved. The penalty of $10, after November 15, now is that
warranted?
Also by other posters, this seems to be an exclusive trip for the
select few, whom subscribe to the NYD~ERA, which I walked away from
three decades ago. There seems to be no price differential for
membership either. It's the same twaddle, just a different decade.
Also if they need a positive response by November 15, why can not
I get the information as to where to order a ticket from the coming
events on this board?
Oh pardone, it's for the FEW, the ERAist of the NYD, not the railfan in general.
IMO ;| ) Sparky
> why can not I get the information as to where to order a ticket
> from the coming events on this board?
I was asked to post it when I received a copy of the flyer-- haven't gotten mine yet. If they want it listed sooner they could send me the text of what they want posted (which they usually do but haven't, this time, yet)
Dave, I'll forward you the info tomorrow, if you don't get anything later today.
Dave P,
>>>If they want it listed sooner they could send me the text of what they want posted<<<
What more can I say without being insensitive to someone.
If you receive the information, you post it. You've done
three postings on current events for this writer and only
one I was directly involved with. Thanks, Dave P.
;| ) Sparky
Also by other posters, this seems to be an exclusive trip for the
select few, whom subscribe to the NYD~ERA, which I walked away from
three decades ago.
Nope, not true. The flyer specifically states to invite your friends, whether they are members or not.
The cost factor is reasonable, if you read other posts cocerning what is involved. The penalty of $10, after November 15, now is that
warranted?
To provide incentive for early signups, the answer is yes. This was done for the three Lo-V fantrips in 1996, 1997 and 1998. It is not without precedent.
--Mark
How much do you want to pay? $3.00 like we did 25 years ago on the old nostalgia specials? Gimme a break. With this trip, you get "wall to wall" train riding on cars which never sees service on this trackage. Compare this price to what you spend on those Transit Museum fund raisers which gives you a trip from midtown to the Rock or CI and back for 30 bucks.
There was a MOD Redbird trip last year which was GREAT. It included the NYCT Track Inspection car (former 5th Ave. Coach body on flatcar) and went over the Culver line....that wasn't a NYD-ERA trip and was I believe $35...it was JUST AS GOOD as a NYD-ERA trip. They do not have a monopoly on great fan trips.
Dougie,
>>>"There was a MOD Redbird trip last year"<<<
That was the MOD Redbird Trip in 2000. 2001 MOD took us to the
dock with the 'D' Types. And in 2002. Memorial Day Weekend,
it was RedBirds on Sunday and Ds on Monday. Two weeks ago
Steeple Cab #6 led the 'D' types in Brooklyn. There was a
slight increase in fare for this one, but all proceeds went
to the "March of Dimes".
;| ) Sparky
Thanks, Sparky...got my years mixed up. But, my point is a valid one in that NYD-ERA DOES NOT have a fix on all the great trips that occurr on New York City Subway trackage....
IMHO the MOD "D-Types to the Docks" excursion is THE BEST fan trip I've done so far, bar none.
True. However, the reason they haven't run a trip on NYCT in so many years is that the costs are too high.
-Stef
Costs are set by MTA/NYCT....and since they 'run the railroad' they can basically charge whatever they deem necessary...
>>>IMHO the MOD "D-Types to the Docks" excursion is
THE BEST fan trip I've done so far, bar none.<<<
Doug, that was one of the better trip for recent times. But having
a few years on ya, the most memorable fan trip I did, in 1969
or 1970 and NYD~ERA sponsored was with the BMT Standards towing
Steeple Car #6 starting at 42nd St.~8th Ave. lower level. Down
Eight Ave. to Houston St., Chrystie St, Willie B, around ENY Yard,
and later in the trip we went to Rockaway Park, Queens not Rockaway
Parkway, Brooklyn. Other highlights evade me at this time. We may
have also visited Coney Island, not sure though.
Any other youngsters remember this June excursion?
;| ) Sparky
Yes, but as the premiere organization of NYC area transit history, don't you think the NYD ERA is entitled to make some money on the trip and not just break even? I don't think $45 is too much to pay for that privilege. Perhaps ERA did not run any such trips this year knowing in advance that CERA was planning their 2002 convention in NYC, and that members of the MTA, in behalf of the March of Dimes, are running these fundraisers. With those out of the way, now it's their turn, and they can charge what they please. If you don't think the trip is worth the price, you don't have to attend. I mean, wOuld you prefer that the organization raise its dues or charge everyone a fee to attend the monthly meetings instead of having them be free? I think we should be very glad that ERA wants to plan another fantrip this year. There have been many "dry" years, but 2002 is turning out to be one of the best years for fantrips in a long time. Lets do what we can to support all of them. NYD ERA is a good organization worth your support, too.
--Mark
Why? The MOD trips were $40. Turnout was very good, especially last Memorial Day.
--Mark
>>>The MOD trips were $40. Turnout was very good, especially last Memorial Day.<<<
The Memorial Day MOD trips were still priced at $35 for advanced
tickets. Day of trip tickets were $5.00 extra.
The September MOD trip was $40, with $5 extra on day of trip.
As for NYD-ERA, I still ask is a ten dollar surcharge valid for
not ordering your ticket 20 days prior to trip? Maybe, when they
were the singular source of trips in the late nineties, yes.
But we have a new group in town now, with procceds going to a
worthy cause.
;| ) Sparky
If both of these bridges collapsed at the same time, what would happen to subway service?
If both of these bridges collapsed at the same time, what would happen to subway service?
Can you say "chaos"? Hey, considering the condition of both bridges, this may come true some day!
Forget subway service, what about vehicular traffic?
What about it? The subways carry more people and have fewer alternate routes.
At least we would get those DAMN cars OUT of the city.
They do not belong in the CBD (PERIOD)
what about all the people in brooklyn whos only route out is through lower manhattan to the holland tunnel i think
They'd have to take the Verazanno Bridge to Staten Island to New Jersey instead.
Hell would come up from below us...seeing that the only way into other parts of the city would be the Triboro, Queensboro, Queens-Midtown Tunnel, Brooklyn Bridge, and Brooklyn Battery. Battery I hope would have the toll waived, but in the event that it doesn't. To get into brooklyn, the Brooklyn bridge would be backed up to Inwood probably.
Cars would have to be banned in Manhattan. Only emergency and delivery trucks allowed.
Lets pretend this really happened.
Your suggestion is easier said than done. It would be better to run special trains in manhatthan for the Nassau line until the bridge can be rebuilt(or a tunnel is subsituted). As for the Broadway line, the N as the Sea beach express, R as its original line, the W as the N(without the seabeach) and the Q, run it as a local to Canal Street, Express to 57 Street.
As for the roads, run the Brooklyn Bridge with busses only, reconstruct the Queensboro Bridge and leave the Triboro bridge as it is.
I find it impossible for both bridges to collapse at the same time, but if it does happen I hope no one is on those bridges.
N,R,Q,and W through the Montague tunnel. I don't think the tunnel can handle that many trains.
" find it impossible for both bridges to collapse at the same time"
Just ask Osma bin Laden, I'll bet you thought tat both toweres would not colapse at the same time either.
Elias
Terrorists go for targets that are sexy. They're not going to blow up the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges since they're not sexy, they'll probably blow up the Brooklyn Bridge instead.
Or the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels.
Tunnels are also easier to damage... the bazooka effect.
On a bridge the explosion would go up and out, without inflicting serious structural damage except on that short segment and harming only those unlucky people in the vicinity of the bomb. In a tunnel - Whoosh! from end to end.
Similarly, trucks have been banned from the lower level of the GWB and I think the Verrazano as well - a truck bomb on the lower level would do more damage to the road deck and probably cause more casualties.
Also a tunnel is more claustrophobic and more likely to be viewed as "scary" by everyone else. And terrorism is, after all, just your ordinary common crime but directed at an audience in order to advance a particular cause. I guess people might figure you can jump off a bridge to safety, but after falling the 100+ foot elevations at midspan typical of most "big" bridges you might as well be landing on concrete.
To effect total structural collapse of a bridge... well there are a number of ways to do it but I probably shouldn't speculate. My feeling as a physicist is that the Brooklyn Bridge would be just about the most difficult bridge of any in the NYC area of its type (suspension) to collapse. Bin Laden is trained as a civil engineer - I'm sure he'd be aware of this as well.
There would be so much confusion and chaos if this did happen.
The first thought would be that this was the work of terrorists.
And for monsters like those, having two bridges collapse at the same time would be what they want to happen.
LET'S NOT THINK OF THAT WILL YOU PLEASE??? THIS IS GETTING TOO CARRIED AWAY!
We have enough problems as it is now!!! Gee Whiz!!! KNOCK IT OFF!
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
Your suggestion goes against the law of supply and demand. Already the crossings are underpriced (look at the traffic); with even lower supply, you suggest lowering the price even more?
Perhaps one of the remaining bridges should become bus-only, to increase its effective capacity. Tolls at B&T facilities would go up until traffic jams are eased. Anyone who doesn't want to pay can take the bus or subway (or can wait in line at one of the toll-free bridges, if they're still toll-free).
A new Internet site to reserve bridge and tunnel crossings a day in advance.
Of course- this entire post is hypothetical and strictyl personal opinion with no inside information which I do not have.
I do say Operations Planning should preparte service planms for the loss of one or both bridges and for subway tunnels to replace both bridges.
Subway- I'd expect J to end at Broadway Myrtle with M ending at a reconnfigured Marcy (island Plat). Southern Division:
N-ends at Pacific
Q-- Via Tunnel(Circle and diamond). In Manhattan, Diamond is Express and Circle runs to Queens via 60 Street
R-Two sections- Brooklyn ends at Pacific, Queens via G Line to Church( Express at Bergen. this is a new route for the V)
w- Tunnel all times.
I'd also expect Transit to apply for federal emergency funds to build a Rutgers DeKalb Tunnel to allow Brighton line to use the F Tnnel. When that is done R can return to current setup.
Of course all this is hypothetical, I also expect that if this happens NYC would see huge lawsuits as would transit. I wonder if the system would survive-- the BRT never survived Malbone Street.
Well the J and M would have to end at Marcy avenue. The R would probably serve the Nassau st line stopping at Canal or Chambers, with only Q local service. The Q would replace the R in Queens.
The N would probably have to become a permanent 59st to 86th street shuttle. And the W would run like it does now on weekends, to Astoria and CI, local all the way.
My god! Can you imagine the extra crunch on the IND? The (F) would get it from both directions, both on Queens Blvd (refugees from the Jamaica line) and in Brooklyn (refugees from Dekalb.)
:-o Andrew
Can you say crippled with a capital C?
What all of you people are ignoring is that anything cataclysmic enough to topple both bridges simultaneously, will cause a lot more damage than just to those bridges.
Earthquake
Meteor
Nuclear Attack
Or those bridges could be destroyed by terrorists.
In any case, watch for the return of ferry service. Also they'd probably put up floating bridges for cars, like across Lake Washington in Seattle.
Not If we have an 7.8 earthquake. Which scientist think its possible!
I hope that really doesn't happen anytime soon
Not If we have an 7.8 earthquake. Which scientist think its possible!
Considering the disgracful condition of those bridges, I'd say a much much weaker earthquake could be enough. Ugh.
Well, if the bridges were to fall (GOD FORBID!), the results will be catastrophic not just for the subways but vehicular traffic & the amount of traffic they carry. The bridges(particularly the Manny-B) is solwly sinkng because of the weight of trains, which is causing the torsion as a reuslt of the imbalance of train patterns over the years.
There won't be a collapse. There could be something like the West Side Highway Scenario. A train derails because of stringer failure. Inspections reveal more cracks. Trains are suddenly pulled from the bridge with no prospect of return and any alternative years, and billions, away.
You wouldn't need a collapse scenario to take the bridges out of service -- and, frankly, I wouldn't want to even consider such an event. All it would take is DOT deciding that, for whatever reason, they were making them unavailable for rapid transit.
We had a good discussion a few months back about scenarios for the Manny B being completely unavailable for transit use. The scenarios we came up with all presumed that Willy B would continue to be available, meaning Chrystie and Nassau could still provide service. With both out of service, it would be one hell of a nightmare.
I would see QB, Fulton and the 14th Street lines becoming totally mobbed during peak and very crowded the rest of the time. If we were talking about a "permanent" or "long term" loss of the bridges, then NYCT would probably have to quickly build a connection from the Jamaica El to the 14th Street line to provide a through-route to Manhattan. Passenger ferries and shuttle buses would likely appear to connect Marcy with Essex and/or Chambers/BB.
There probably would be only two services through Montague to Broadway - one 4th Av and one Brighton - my guess would be W to Astoria and Q out to Forest Hills. Nassau would be reduced to a shuttle between Essex and Broad or limited service to Brooklyn, or closed entirely. The V would have to be extended to at least Church Av if not Kings Hwy or turned into my twisted idea of an "NF" running down the Culver then over the Sea Beach back up to either 36th or Pacific. (Manhattan-bound folks north of 62nd would take it towards 4th Av to transfer, while those south of 62nd could take it either way.)
Let's hope nothing so severe ever occurs before TPTB get off their duffs and build some additional flexibility, like a DeKalb/Rutgers connection, or the lower portion of Second Av connecting to Nassau.
Not having ridden through the lines in almost 15 years now, I can't remember how the tunnels run...but, if there were to be a connection between DeKalb and the IND, would there be any (relatively) not-too-monumental way of building such a connection before the IND tracks split for Cranberry and Rutgers versus just going into Rutgers? If such a connection could be pulled off without having to completely reconstruct the whole area, it would give some major routing options. Thoughts?
I don't know the answer to your questions, but I thought I remember reading here a few months ago that there was talk about a connection like that. I don't remember if that was actual talk by the MTA or other official group, or if it was just a subtalk fantasy.
I've always said the system should have more flexing ablity.The Dekalb/Rudgers connection,the World Trade Ctr/Cortlandt st[IND 8TH AVE local to BMT Broadway line],IND Fulton st local connection to the Montague street tunnel,are a few I can think of off hand,and I'm sure there are a few more that will come to me....
A proposal to make such a connection was made several years ago. IIRC, the idea was to have B train service rerouted off the Manny B and through the Rutgers tunnel and then onto DeKalb via the new connection.
The story was not very clear on whether or not the connection would be before or after the York St. IND station (due to the depth and crossover locations, I would guess after York), and of course, the addition of the V train on the Sixth Ave. local tracks would mean some major track capacity problems between W. Fourth and Houston-Second Ave. now if the B train also was to share that trackage with the V and the F. But apparently, the connection idea has lost favor among whoever in the bureacracy was backing it before, so it would probably take another report on major flaws in the Manny B to rekindle any interest at the MTA headquarters.
1) Brooklyn Bridge becomes Busses Only
2) Close BBT & QMT to cars
3) All Bway Trains via Montegue
4) Saturate Rutgers Tunnel with (F) (C) Service
5) Saturate Cranberry Tunnel with (A) (V) Service
What else?
First let me say how glad I am to see subtalk back in action!
Vehicular:
1. Impose SOV restrictions on all east-river crossings from the BBT to the TriBB similar to those after 9/11.
2. At least initially waive the tolls on the BBT, QMT and TriBB to ease traffic flow; these can later be restored.
3. (possibly) make the BBT, Brook B, QMT or some combination of the three bus only (or at least one bus and emergency-only lane in each direction, and add new bus service, both express and local.
4. If feasible construct a temporary pontoon bridge across the East River for vehicular traffic until replacemnt bridges or tunnels can be constructed. Call in the Army Corps of Engineers...
5. Reinstate Ferry Service across the East River, similar to the post-9/11 Brooklyn-Manhattan service using SI Ferry equipment.
Subway:
If both bridges are out:
J and M east of Willy B as before, limited by turning capacity at Marcy or whatever their western terminus. Z suspended indefinitely.
M on Sea Beach is gone.
N/R/Q/W via Montague, limited by Montague's capacity.
New Broadway local service in Manhattan, reversing and running back up using the center track at Whitehall.
Send the B or the D (or both) along with the F through Rutgers to increase service over the East River instead of reversing at 34th. Alternately if possible send the G through Rutgers to Manhattan (hmmm a G through Manhattan... that would be interesting!)
Increase service through the Cranberry, Joralemon and Clark tunnels when feasible (this would apply mostly to off the absolute peak hours; in peak hours we're screwed anyway).
Increase service from Jamaica to Midtown on the E to serve riders at the eastern end of the J/Z.
Increase L service to benefit J/M/Z riders.
Increase LIRR service if feasible.
Here's another idea: Is there any way to use the Hell Gate Bridge as a bypass for NYCT or LIRR trains?
Sorry to go OT, but this seems a good place to start.
Someone I know is hoping to holiday in NY this November. Can anyone suggest good tourist sites, i.e. which give good information on which locations to stay. I can track down nice looking hotels via the web, but would like to know more about neighbourhoods.
Also, some time in the last couple of years, somone posted an excellent short guide to tourists using the subway. It was very succinct, and talked about which lines were best for toursis in terms of sights. Can anyone else remember this so I can pull it out of the archive.
1971..."The French Connection" opens. The classic suspense film is based on a major New York narcotics investigation and is filmed in New York.
1993...Dozens of passengers are injured when a Manhattan-bound L train slams into another train in the Graham Avenue station in Williamsburgh.
Peace,
ANDEE
And that's the reason why they have that 8MPH timer (which forces a near-full stop on approach to the curve) in there.
wayne
I the past, we have seen figures that indicated that riders paid 50% of the operating cost in the subway and 25% in commuter rail.
I claimed the 25% in a recent post. Perhaps that figure is old and no longer valid.
Ray Sanchez, a columnist in Newsday claims that (direct quote):
"It doesn't mention that city subway and bus riders pay nearly 60 percent of the cost of running the transit system. Long Island Rail Road riders pay 44 percent while those on Metro-North Commuter Railroad pay 54 percent. The national average is 40 percent."
I don't know which source he's using. While the subway figure could be true, the commuter rail figurelooks a little high. - but I could be wrong.
Sanchez, in my opinion, does write soime good stuff, but can also get vapid and make mountains out of mosquito bites just to fill a blank page with words.
The column is at:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub1007,0,3330078.column?coll=ny%2Dny%2Dcolumnists
I invite anyone having access to more current pricing and economic data than I do to comment.
The column doesn't say whether the figures apply to both operating and capital costs or, as I suspect, to operating costs only.
I think he means day-to-day operating costs.
Surprisingly, a simple cost recovery ratio is very difficult to find. It's probably because this kind of data is open to abuse, so APTA and others tend not to publish it.
According to my copy of the APTA 2002 Public Transit Fact Book, on p.52 it claims that "Total Public Funds" is 54.6% of "Total Operating Expense", so I guess that means national average for cost recovery is 45.4%.
There is data on New York City Transit at http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2000+All/2008/$File/P2008.htm if you're sufficiently interested to do some divisions, you will find out what the cost recovery ratios are. You can also find similar data for Metro North and other agencies if you go to: http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2000+All?OpenView&Start=1&Count=50.
I'm not sufficiently interested to run the numbers. The data are all out there, especially if you go to www.apta.com or www.ntdprogram.com. There is a lot of data on public transit, created as part of the reporting requirement to get Federal $, but none of the data is that good and it is always open to distortion (depending on your cost allocation model, for example).
When considering transit effectiveness, there is a lot more to the story than cost recovery ratios. I suspect the journalist in question simply did some division using the operating cash and revenue numbers given in the National Transit Database (ntdprogram.com).
AEM7
Thanks for posting that.
Cost Recovery Ratios (from class notes, 2002)
Chicago: 50% (mandated by RTA)
Toronto: 82%
Boston: 30%
The Boston number, I know, is heavily dragged down by Commuter Rail. The Commuter Rail achieves something like 20% cost-recovery systemwide whereas some urban bus routes see a profit, and the Red Line is at least 60%. This is not always true in every system -- depends on the fare structure. In Chicago, Metra makes money on the IC Electric route (> 100% cost recovery) whereas CTA loses money on their rapid-transit routes (which are comparable to the IC Electric route in characteristics). The reason is because Metra matches the level of service to demand, and collect higher fares than CTA.
AEM7
The Boston Red Line number is impressive, consideing how low MBTA fares are.
And the Toronto number is breath-taking. Is Toronto Transit considered exhorbitantly expensive by its patrons?
And the Toronto number is breath-taking. Is Toronto Transit considered exhorbitantly expensive by its patrons?
Toronto Transit has always been a fuck-up amongst American Transit Systems. I have never been able to explain why their operating stats look better than anyone else's, but then, they are not constrained under the same condition as the American transit systems, so it's not a fair comparison.
A friend of mine asserts this is because Toronto continually invested in its transit system throughout the 1960s and 1970s and as a result never lost the ridership and land-use patterns it once had when streetcars roamed the earth. It is true that once you lose ridership, it is very very hard to gain them back again, but again it is hard to imagine that they are able to do this.
I was plotting some graphs yesterday using the Millennium Cities CD-ROM (a ROM containing data on many of the world's transit systems compiled by some Belgian people) and no matter how you look at it, the Toronto system looks more like the European cities by a large margin. For instance, NY Metro Area spends 1% of its GDP on public transit (including commuter rail and buses), and they achieve a "demand factor" of 0.004 arbitrary units (yes I wrote a model that calculated how much demand there is for the service), while the Toronto Metro Area spends a similar amount (1.2% of GDP) and produces a demand factor of 0.012. In fact, many European cities have worse performance than Toronto, once the data is standardized for things like fare and GDP.
As for cost recovery ratios, London and Barcelona has absurbly high cost recovery ratios (something like 90% in London and 105% in Barcelona) compared to the other developed world cities. The reason is because London believes charging cost for pbulic transit (i.e. Network SouthEast used to break even) and Barcelona is just a much much denser city than Berlin, Munich and Paris (the other cities that we examined). The European systems only achieve cost recovery ratios in the 35% to 55% range.
AEM7
I'm curious. You refer to Toronto Transit by an expletive, yet point out that their recovery rate puts them in the same class as European cities like London which recover a large part of the fare. You quote a friend who says that Toronto Transit has steadily invested and reinvested in its system (do they have a formal Capital Plan?)
So why don't you like them?
So why don't you like them?
M dated a guy from Toronto (more correctly a suburb of Toronto) during the 7 months when we weren't dating. To this day, I hate the Canadiens with a passion.
I have never, ever got along with Canadiens. I think they are as bad as the English in terms of their narrow-minded tunnel vision and arrogant stance (How many Canadiens have you spoken to that do not continually claims that they are "better than Americans"?)
As for Toronto Transit Commission, they are an expletive in the sense that they do not comform to my (mental) model of how transit systems should work. It's hard to explain why they do what they do "so well". Also, the other point: you get what you pay for. Normalized for things like urban density and number of rides, Toronto provides a much worse service than say San Francisco. The reason the San Francisco system is so cost-ineffective is precisely because they provide a service which is far too extensive for the kind of density and population that they have in that city.
Part of the reason that the Northeast road system is far more efficient (in terms of cost recovery) than comparable systems in California and Texas is precisely because there is so much more congestion on Northeastern highways so they are much more intensively utilized. More intensive usage (and hence higher cost recovery) = lower levels of service.
AEM7
"M dated a guy from Toronto (more correctly a suburb of Toronto) during the 7 months when we weren't dating. To this day, I hate the Canadiens with a passion.
I have never, ever got along with Canadiens. I think they are as bad as the English in terms of their narrow-minded tunnel vision and arrogant stance (How many Canadiens have you spoken to that do not continually claims that they are "better than Americans"?)"
But you have to concede that at least one of them had very good taste in women. :0)
>>> I have never, ever got along with Canadiens. I think they are as bad as the English in terms of their narrow-minded tunnel vision and arrogant stance <<<
You need not look so far north to see narrow minded arrogance, just check a mirror.
Tom
You need not look so far north to see narrow minded arrogance, just check a mirror.
I'm English too. I was born in Leeds, England.
"I have never, ever got along with Canadiens. I think they are as bad as the English in terms of their narrow-minded tunnel vision and arrogant stance (How many Canadiens have you spoken to that do not continually claims that they are "better than Americans"?)"
Are you sure you are not talking about FRENCH Canadians? I have never encountered anybody in Ontario with that attitude. In fact, the reason for the CRTC's obsession with flooding the radio airwaves with "Canadian Content" is due to the opposite of what you say. Most Canadians have an "inferiority complex" when compared to Americans, and the CRTC wants to strengthen "Canadian Culture" to alleviate that feeling.
"As for Toronto Transit Commission, they are an expletive in the sense that they do not comform to my (mental) model of how transit systems should work. It's hard to explain why they do what they do "so well"."
Again, are you confusing the TTC with the STCUM?? You are probably the first person in North America who has ever criticized the TTC! I admit I don't know the details about "Cost Recovery", but I do know that after visiting Toronto over 20 times from 1980-1995, I have ridden the TTC enough times to say that it is the best system in North America when it comes to variety (for buffs) and efficiency (for the general public). Too bad the trolley coaches were retired a few years back.
Yes -- the English Canadiens are just as bad as Canadian Francaise. The Francaise has a culture, and I don't criticize them for that culture of uppity stuckupness which is what has kept French fashion and arts in the forefront of world fashion. This goes to suggest what I think about the arts and fashion world. Of course, I am an artist myself, and I understand where they are coming from, and if you're an artist you need the Francaise attitude. But we're talking about transit systems, not works of art or cooking.
I don't think the English Canadiens have an inferiority complex. If they did, they would all move here. They ain't moving yet.
I am aware that TTC has a lot of what people in the transit industry call "good practices". It is true that a lot of what they do is wonderful. However, in any management topic, there is always a flip side of the coin. Remember I talked about the high cost recovery, and the flip side being high fares. Now you talked about variety -- of course from a railfan perspective variety is good, but what do you think contributes to TTC's high costs relative to the service that they do provide? Now, the biggest gripe I have with TTC is the range of service they do provide. Someone already mentioned that they start at 9am on a Sunday instead of 6.30am like any other respectable transit system. While I have not looked at a detailed TTC service map, their service coverage must be lower than comparable American systems, as their cost recovery ratio shows. If the money losing branches of the MBTA were cut back, then I believe the MBTA would show a much higher cost recovery than they currently do. If there was pressure on the MBTA to control its costs, I believe the labor contracts would be much less lucrative. Someone (I forget who) just recently gave a talk that suggested in Chicago, the transit labor soaked up most of the subsidies intended for passengers. Transit management is a complex field and cost recovery ratio is not the only benchmark against which a transit authority should be judged. It is hard to normalize for issues like service coverage. Even if you do detailed population density calculations, you fail to take into account of the fact that if you have higher population density, the people have less room in which to live and that is a disutility imposed (or self-imposed) upon the users. It's easy to praise TTC because they have every statistic pointing the "right" way, but it's much more difficult to realize that both the Toronto population and the TTC labor are making great sacrifices to make these statistics possible. I left Europe because I hated cramped housing -- even if it is transit accessible. If we ask for any higher cost-recovery ratios from our transit systems, we will end up with that kind of condition. I just completed a report last week which showed San Francisco Metro Area as the poorest value-for-money transit system in the fourteen system we studied from around the world. Why do you think this is? SFO has the highest freeway mileage per 1000 population, also the second highest public transportation spending in North America (normalized for population and GDP). In return, the San Franciscians enjoy one of the most spacious living conditions available to any American.
AEM7
If you are willing to forward, I would be interested in reading your report in full. Find my email among site contributors.
The report is stored on the lab computer. It's in a very draft form, and certainly is not publishable as is. I'll forward it the next time I am in the lab, provided that you agree that you will not distribute it further.
AEM7
"Someone already mentioned that they start at 9am on a Sunday instead of 6.30am like any other respectable transit system."
Just to clarify that, the SUBWAY starts running at 9am on Sundays. Prior to 9am, the owl service, called the "Blue Night Network", is in effect. That includes a pretty impressive amount of bus and streetcar lines that run all night (7 days a week), including bus routes that parallel the subway lines that have shut down for the night. I find that the owl service in Toronto is more extensive and offers better service than peak hour service in some medium size U.S. cities!
It's going to be a full decade since the second (and final) electric bus abandonment this spring. I can't believe it's been 10 years already since they were abandoned in my neighbourhood, back in 1992.
-Robert King
One reason might be that prices in Canada are already so high (due to a 21% sales tax) that the cost of transit (which probably dosen't have a sales tax added on) is quite affordable compared to the cost of other goods (especially gasoline). However if you compare the TTC cost w/ that of an American transit system of similar service, it is quite expensive.
One thing I do know is that the TTC subway like opens on Sundays/Holidays at like 10 AM, so they might also be good at cost containment.
Where did you come up with the sales tax of 21%?
The subway opens around 9 on Sundays (holidays use the Sunday schedule), varying a bit by location as trains come into service.
-Robert King
When I was there and I looked at a receipt. There is a 15% national sales tax and a 6% provincial sales tax.
Nope... the provincial sales tax is 8% and the federal tax is 7%. The provincial sales tax varies by province, this is the figure for Ontario.
Either way it's obscene. The 6% that I pay in New Jersey - and that's only on some items (food, clothing, and a lot of other stuff is exempt) - is ridiculous enough. I've already been taxed when I earn it, why should I be taxed when I spend it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Close study of the last five decades show a consistent shift of the tax burden from the corporate criminals to the working stiffs--and all in the name of reform. But, hey the sheep elected the legislators who crafted this disaster, and keep returning them to office. Meanwhile the net tax burden of US citizens is the lowest among the G7 which is why we "can't afford" health care, sufficient public transit, etc while we whine about taxes because we see what is collected wasted so badly Its enough to make you vote NObody for ...
Canadian taxes are in general higher than those in the United States, but then again people get much more for their money.
You mean that the Canadian government is more cost-effective than the US government?
You mean that the Canadian government is more cost-effective than the US government?
Actually, that assertion is only fair if Canadian and U.S. governments worked independently. I would argue that in fact U.S. supplies a lot of services to Canada which saves them expense. For instance, U.S. funded the GPS satellites so that those in Canada (and elsewhere round the world) can benefit. If Canada had to foot the bill for the development of a similar system, their expense would be higher. There are other things that U.S. pays for so that Canada does not have to -- for instance, nuclear weapons. Lots of things that the U.S. does really benefits a lot of people outside the U.S. If the Canadian government did the same, their expense would skyrocket.
AEM7
I got my quarterly GST rebate cheque yesterday!
-Robert King
Heh heh!!!! Tell me about it!!! For a poor-recently-graduated-student-working-part-time-while-looking-for-better-work like me, those cheques are a lifesaver!!!
No kidding. That sounds like my situation right now but I'm still working away on that degree. You know how it is with money - you just can't win - considering Monday's mail:
Quarterly GST rebate: +$53.25
Halton renewal notice: -$58.85*
*1 year membership paid for to try out expires at the end of this Saturday and I'll make the decision then. In the meantime, thank goodness for Thursday. Thursday's payday! :)
-Robert King
You know how it is with money - you just can't win - considering Monday's mail:
Quarterly GST rebate: +$53.25
Halton renewal notice: -$58.85*
*1 year membership paid for to try out expires at the end of this Saturday and I'll make the decision then.
What's Halton?
The Halton County Radial Railway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The cost isn't considered exhorbitant yet. When the last fare increase took place, the cash fare was bumped up a quarter, from $2 to $2.25 and that was the largest increase of a single fare, recently. Adult tokens/tickets were raised a little, as were seniors fares, but it's the student fare that's been hit the hardest over the last few fare increases because of the captive ridership. I remember when I was in high school when that practice started, and it really irked a lot of students. Metropasses (the regular, adult ones) were raised by $5 from $88.50 to $93.50 per month.
Personally, I think the psychologically (not to mention fiscally) exhorbitant cost, reflected across all fares, will be whenever a round of fare increases takes the Metropass to $100/month or higher. And certainly if that $3 cash fare that's been discussed on and off comes to pass.
The fares, which have been increased faster than they should really have been, and the cost recovery percentages are both due to the fact that the TTC receives no funding to speak of from the provincial and federal government. The city of Toronto chips in something like $150 million per year towards the operating expenses, but every time the municipal budget has been prepared in the past few years, the police and other sections, to a lesser extent, have had their share of the pie increased by eroding the TTC's operating subsidy and this has started to become somewhat controvercial during budget time.
-Robert King
No federal subsidy, eh? Impressive.
And it's still cheaper than a cab...
For all intents and purposes, no, there is no federal subsidy. Well, the federal government did give the TTC 76 million dollars earlier this year. At the time, my understanding was that it was intended for the capital budget in general, but apparantly it was specifically designated by the government to be used to buy 20 low floor streetcars of all things. But that's all the federal money the TTC has been given in many years. The TTC currently has a bus shortage but there are currently a number of surplus streetcars with the current service levels, so I have no idea why the government's forcing the money to be spent on new streetcars.
There is also no provincial subsidy either, yet. I don't know how this one's being resolved, but the government of Ontario came up with a proposal to provide the TTC with the necessary capital funding needed to maintain current service levels over the next decade (note: no expansion of services) by splitting the cost equally three ways between the city of Toronto, and the governments of Ontario and Canada. The province and the city both agreed, but the federal government refused to because they feel that the province should go back to the old funding formula where they paid 75% of the TTC's capital costs. The result is the federal government won't provide any funding until Ontario provides its pre-no-funding-at-all 75%, and the province won't provide funding until the federal government agrees to provide the 33% requested by the province and the city. The chicken and egg roundabout appears to have no end in sight and it's completely stupid. In the meantime, the idiot who is the federal transportation minister gets on TV with all kinds of ludicrous ideas like banning trucks from the 401! At least he's no longer in charge of the ministry of national defence.
Really, it's amazing the TTC does provide the service they do without having that $3 cash fare that comes up in discussion during budget time.
-Robert King
the best fare recovery is the San Diego Trolley.....close to 90%
is recovered from the farebox....based on zones..the more you ride
the more you pay.
the best fare recovery is the San Diego Trolley.....close to 90%
According to the National Transportation Database for the year 2000:
the operating expenses were: $32.1547 million
the fare revenues were: $20.9409 million
The remainder was made up by federal grants, dedicated state taxes and general revinues.
The farebox recovery ratio works out to: 65%. - zoned fares notwithstanding. :-)
One problem with the data presented in the National Transportation Database is that expenses are separated by operating mode (motor bus, light rail, heavy rail, etc) but fares are not. There is data available on the web that suggests that NYCT rail opeations actually operate a surplus from the fare box. However, there is a big statistical problem with free transfers between modes and unlimited trips as how to apportion the farebox revenue between the different modes.
Good points. But 65% is a respectable recovery nonetheless. (I'm not advocating for or against the particular fare structure).
The figures most often cited are "Farebox Recovery Ratio." Simply stated, this is operating revenue as a percentage of operating expense. The figures are highly subject to manipulation. For example, maintenance costs taken out of the operating budget (i.e., non-capital) can be loaded or deferred in any particular year to produce different ratios. This was done around the time that MetroCard discounts were introduced to produce very rosy results.
Anyway, the most recent year for which I have "official" figures is 1999: New York City buses: 0.39; New York City Subways: 0.62; Staten Island Railway: 0.15; Metro North RR: 0.48; Long Island RR: 0.40.
Also, just for fun: Roosevelt Island Tramway: 0.66 (1998); Staten Island Ferry: 0.06 (1999); Private Ferries: 0.63 (1998).
(Source: New York Metropolitan Transportation Council, "Regional Transportation Statistical Report," published June 2001.)
(The figures are highly subject to manipulation. For example, maintenance costs taken out of the operating budget (i.e., non-capital) can be loaded or deferred in any particular year to produce different ratios.)
And re-manipulation -- some operating costs have been shifted to the capital plan by having the operating departments charge more for capital work, but the operating budget now includes debt service on capital bonds.
Still, as I measure it, the subway covered its operating costs in 1997, before the big-time discounts kicked in. The TA hasn't published a budget lately, but I imagine it will once again cover its costs once the big fare hike hits. As for the commuter railroads, you have to remember that MTA taxes are the same in the City and Suburbs, though more city residents benefit from transit. And many of those taxes are on businesses, which in the city are paying to have access to suburbanites as well as city residents.
Meanwhile, the bus is a social service, forced to serve unprofitable routes, times, and markets (half fare elderly, free students). True in New York, and everywhere else.
So to get a cost recovery of 60 percent at the farebox, NYC Transit probably collects 95% on the subway, and somewhere in the upper twenties or low thirties on the bus.
The figures at NYMTC were broken down: 62% on the subway, 39% on the bus, for 1997. Of course, there's also the question of how they divide the $$$ when someone takes a multi-modal ride--i.e., subway and bus combined.
A simple but not entirely accurate way would be to divide all the revenue from MetroCards by the number of swipws.
I said "for 1997" SHOULD READ "for 1999".
Meanwhile, the bus is a social service, forced to serve unprofitable routes, times, and markets (half fare elderly, free students). True in New York, and everywhere else.
The subway has the same discounts, of course. While the subway may not serve any unprofitable routes, as you have noted yourself the maintenance of 24/7 service at every station may not be cost-effective. I would say that there is a social service aspect to the 24/7 requirement.
Why isn't everything a public service? Why isn't food a public service? What about clothing? What about housing? What about entertainment? That could be a public service too. If everything was a public service, wouldn't we all be happy?
Why isn't everything a public service? Why isn't food a public service? What about clothing? What about housing? What about entertainment? That could be a public service too. If everything was a public service, wouldn't we all be happy?
Some might say that 24/7 subway service is a social service because it probably has a per-trip cost that's well in excess of the costs during other hours and well in excess of the fare. According to this argument, which I'll point out is not necessarily one with which I fully agree, NYCT maintains 24/7 service in the entire system mainly to serve lower-income city residents who tend to work outside the traditional 9 to 5 hours and who lack access to other means of transportation. I use the term "entire system" because there is no question that some lines need 24/7 service and are heavily used regardless of the late hour - the 7 is a text book example. On the other hand, running the G at 3 am is almost certainly a big money loser.
"Why isn't everything a public service?"
Why not make nothing a public service?
Call 911 for fire or police, have your credit card handy, because no pay, no come.
School tuition 100% of cost (which it isn't anywhere, not even in private schools), who cares if a lot of people then can't send their kids to school?
Walk down the sidewalk, pay 1 penny per footstep toll.
Turnstiles at the entrance to parks and playgrounds.
Coin-operated streetlights, but they're never on because everyone on the block thinks someone else on the block will drop in the quarter.
Great post, John. Very much to the point.
"School tuition 100% of cost (which it isn't anywhere, not even in private schools), who cares if a lot of people then can't send their kids to school?"
I'm sure the Al-Queda operated Madrassahs in Pakistan would be happy to offer a free education to any American child who wants one. Madrassahs feature extraordinary teachers and an education to die for (literally) They'll even offer free meals, housing and they'll pay the air fare to Karachi.
:0)
Coin-operated streetlights, but they're never on because everyone on the block thinks someone else on the block will drop in the quarter.
When I was at Fort Meade, MD, it got really cold in the dead of winter. In my unit we didn't have regular "firemen" (not fire fighters--people trained to run the coal furnace)--if one of the troops didn't make the fire the barracks had frost on the metal bunks at night. Most of the guys just dug under their blankets rather than throw some coal on the fire to keep it from going out.
When I'd come in at night and find the barracks cold I'd wake most of them up cursing about the #^@@!! lazy sons-of-*&^)&(+!! who couldn't keep the fire going! Then I'd make the fire myself.
So the "price" they paid to have a warm barracks was to lose some sleep. The free market works, even when no money changes hands.
Great example.
What price did they make you pay for waking them up?
:0)
What price did they make you pay for waking them up?
No price. If they retaliated (a) I wouldn't make the fire any more, meaning (b) they would be cold and (c) when the platoon sergeant came in a few mornings and found ice on the floor, he'd make up a roster of people to make the fire.
In economics, I think that's called "Efficient Market Theory." ;-)
Late night subway service is similar in function to overnight supermarket hours. No supermarket is making money at 3 in the morning, but many stay open all night so their customers never have to worry about whether the store will be open when they need to go shopping. If the subway (or an equivalent service) weren't available all night, a lot of people would have to buy (and use) their own cars, just in case they stay out after the last train of the night. The minimal service the TA provides is sufficient, but there needs to be something if we don't want to see many more cars flooding the streets of the city.
>>> No supermarket is making money at 3 in the morning, but many stay open all night so their customers never have to worry about whether the store will be open when they need to go shopping. <<<
From what I've seen they do seem to be coving the marginal costs of staying open since they are restocking the shelves and cleaning the floors during that time anyway, so they are paying the employees and the light bill whether they are open or not. I say this because many of the all night supermarkets in this area where the employees outnumbered the customers in the wee hours have cut back to closing at 12:00 midnight, and now are restocking during the evening and early morning (they open at 6:00 am), but where I used to live in Los Angeles (and the markets remain open all night), there was a steady trickle of customers all night long.
Tom
True. Since the overnight service often does not use the express tracks, and is always subject to GO's (overnight customers are used to diversions), the work crews can do their thing alongside the passenger-carrying trains.
PATH handles it by running 30 minute headways.
A lot harder to do that n a simpler system like Washington's or San Francisco's BART (though you could offer overnight service with single-tracking on a line, the other track having work crews on it. Of course, WMATA has not deemed it desirable to run overnight service on Metrorail.
WMATA has not deemed it desirable to run overnight service on Metrorail.
It's all a question of culture. WAS has this snobby culture (quite Francaise) that they must shut down because it's not "proper" to be out late at night, and there are "undesirables" out on the streets at that hour.
For smaller systems, like the MBTA, or WMATA, the real solution is to run bus substitutions during the night. Demand isn't enough to justify a train, and it will be cheaper to run buses than to try to do single tracking.
It's all a question of culture. WAS has this snobby culture (quite Francaise) that they must shut down because it's not "proper" to be out late at night, and there are "undesirables" out on the streets at that hour.
Quite so. Additionally, Washington has much less of a nightlife than New York has - and presumably fewer night workers.
uvernight service clearly does NOT require express tracks. The Canarsie, the Flatbush leg of the IRT, the south half of CTA's Red Line, the entire Blue, as well as PATH are all examples.
Think about any given stretch of track. How often is maintenance work done? monthly, certainly not weekly. On 'newer systems like BART, WMATA, there should be less to repair so the excuses are more bogus. The real story is IMHO indeed a political/social attitude towards people who choose to be out late. As to the costs, many potential riders in the SF area drive to late evening entertainment which artificially lowers ridership in the hours when BART is open.
Someone needs to act as cashier (perhaps among other responsibilities). I highly doubt the handful of transactions that take place in the middle of the night pay the cashier's salary.
You haven't been to places where they do. One store was so busy that there was a line at the checkout when I went in there at 3am.
How many cashiers were on duty (and compare that to daytime)?
I would agree with that. The ridership base overnight is not insubstantial, but it is very small compared to daytime. There have been numerous articles about New ork's night workers and the subway.
It would be very un-New York-like for someone working a night shift or graveyard shift not to be able to take the subway to work.
Not to mention the folks leaving the bars at 2 o'clock in the morning.
Is there someplace (a TA site or .gov) that has the MTA payout by work done -- train crews, track, admin? What percentage of running a night train is spent on the motorman (T/O, what's the word, I'm new here?) and on-board crew, and what percentage of operating cost is actually wear and tear?
what percentage of operating cost is actually wear and tear?
Wear and tear is pretty close to 0%, whichever agency. Feds pay for new equipment, and Feds pay for pre-emptive maintenance of equipment. The only thing that is paid out of the operating budget these days is fuel, and fuel costs nothing compared to the operator's salary. Now, think about the pre-emptive maintenance -- most of the cost there is in labor too, not in the parts. Most of the transit agency's costs are in labor.
This isn't to say labor should be squeezed to make the transit authority more efficient. Squeezing labor does no good for anybody. The point is that there needs to be recognition that labor IS expensive and that is a cost that we need to accept to have chauffered transit. If you want to reduce that cost, drive.
AEM7
Or be able to change the routes and schedules so often that there would never be an empty inch of floor space on the trains (and somehow magically not reduce demand in the process).
OK you goaded me into it. I pulled down the latest (2000) data from the FTA. A brief looks says that the operating cost per unlink trip was:
NYC Subway $1.25 -- with wage and pension increases add at least 20 percent as of 2003.
PATH $1.94
Boston Heavy Rail $1.41
Septa Heavy Rail $1.31
Chicago Heavy Rail $1.79
DC Heavy Rail $1.87
NYC Bus $1.61
Long Is Bus $2.64 (Pataki wants to merge these)
Liberty Bus $2.64
NYC DOT $2.25 (Bloomberg wants to merge these with the TA)
Queens Surface $2.91
Of course, buses have lower capital costs than subways -- in most of the country the feds cover the entire bus purchase cost.
LIRR $6.61
Metro North $7.61
NJT Commuter Rail $6.60
The LIRR comes off better than you usually here, MetroNorth must just charge more. NJT may have surpressed costs through deferred maintenence, a false savings.
LIRR $6.61
Metro North $7.61
I find that very surprising. It had been my understanding that "sweetheart" labor rules are much more prelevant on the LIRR than on MN. What with labor accounting for much of the operating cost of commuter rail, that should translate into substantially higher costs for the LIRR. There must be something else going on here.
I've just pulled down these cost figures, too, and compared them along with cost per passenger mile. I don't have them with me, but based on memory, I think the difference is that subway is cheapest, obviously, due to 5-mile unlinked trip at 25 cents, thus 1.25, and MTN comes off higher due to longer average trip per passenger. Per mile costs MIGHT be lower. Passengers per employee may differ.
I meant to say, MTA more expensive than LIRR due to ride length. Obviously they're both much longer than 5-mile subway ride.
I think cost per passenger mile is misleading across modes. A subway traveling 30 miles costs more than commuter rail traveling 30 miles. Why, because it takes the subway 2 1/2 hours to make the trip, vs. 30 minutes for commuter rail. The staff on the train has to be paid for five times as long.
Cost per revenue vehicle hour is a good measure, since NYCT's low cost per passenger is in part due to high ridership, and those elsewhere have no choice but to run empty buses and trains.
As for bus vs. train, remember the train includes the cost of the stations (a real amenity) and the right-of-way. Buses don't have stations, and the right of way is paid for by others. But I believe there is enough data to tease out the vehicle only costs of the trains.
Queens Surface is more than twice the cost of subway, and is the highest of the bus services.
When they list SEPTA Heavy Rail, is that not including commuter trains?
ZERO or 100% depending on your mood. I ride without charge as a NYCTA employee when I do travel by subway or bus...it is my responsibility to provide emergency service in a crisis. Funny... a year ago I had not the skills or confidence to make such a statement.
Hearing M7s won't be placed in revenue service for a couple of months.
source ?? I heard the first two trains will go in service at change of time in October.
Engineer on train the other day...
U ARE CORRECT! according to my friends in LIRR, M7 due in revenue service b4 end of this month
Can't wait to see it in service!! It looked good during the testing I saw, but now time comes for it to prove how good it really is. We'll see if it is good, or if it will be another flawed-up Bombardier creation. We shall see soon!!
sounds like a bombardier product without the hiccups
it has already started on the babylon line
With the fare heading for 2 bucks...to travel anywhere in NYC (really a bargain)..why not institute fares based on zones. The further you
travel the more you pay and vice versa....Does the Metrocard system have that flexibility???..I know the turnstiles would have to be modified..as you would swipe getting on & off the system. It sure works well in London, BART in SF & DC Metro.... Any thoughts???
The tech issues here would be dwarfed by the politics.
Much easier to put tolls on the East River bridges.
Agreed. This is not a question of technology; merely a question of politics (and public finance).
>>works well in London, BART in SF & DC Metro.<<
Watch as the rush hour commuters struggle with the balky faregates trying to get out. Snd care to guess where BART is most heavily used? (clue in SF your MUNI Fastpass is good for similar unlimited monthly usage on BART) The ease of implementing distance based and time of day fare ripoffs are the one reason I feared the introduction of Metrocards.
How flexible are MetroCards? Oh, I'd say you can bend them to about a 120-degree angle before they'll snap!
Yes, but then you'll get arrested for forgery.
I don't know... my Metrocard was always pretty flexible, but if you bent it too much, it would get a kink in it and then the machine wouldn't read it anymore.
Seriously, I think fare zones are a good theory, but would be very difficult to implement in New York.
It was hard enough to get a handle on entrance fare evasion. There still are problems. Combine the problem of fare evasion on exiting with the fact that: 1) New Yorkers aren't used to paying an exit fare (except those who used to ride out to Aqueduct or something like that), plus 2) the need for MVMs on the inside of fare control, plus 3) the spatial issues with crowds around those MVMs on the inside of fare control (most NYCT platforms and mezzanines are already too small), and I think you get a great concept that is regrettably too hard to implement.
Matt
I do not think it would work. I can see it now-- Lines of people exiting and entering. Swipe selling for entry and exit. No thanks!
Also- it would mean dual paperwork for station agents--entry fare report and exit fare report. It si hard enough now to do all our required paperwork and administrative work between customers.
I do not understand-- people will camp out overnight for baseball tickets or for tickets to a concert but they can not wait 5-10 seconds for us to wait on them. They wait in the local stores, but can not wait at the booth.
If we are waiting on an internal customer (an employee) who was there before the external (paying passenger) they can not wait. We tell them, I'll be with you in a minute and still they can not wait.
All this will be double the headache if we have zone fares. Time of day will also fail-- I can see it now. We have a full mezzanine of wall to wall customers waiting for the fare to go down or waiting in line to go in before the fare goes to peak-- We'd need a cop at every entrance to avoid people knocking each other down to get in before the fare goes to peak. I can see the gripes now-- "You [bleep bleep bleep] if you had been faster I' have gotten in for lower fare." Yeah-- they pay with 40 singles in a wad and want a card right away and gripe when we count their money.
Please- no zone fare ands now time of day fares.
I would challenge the statement it works well in London...it is terribly absurdly inefficient, leads to massive back ups as tickets have to be swiped or inspected upon exit and leads to the asinine problem that a trip from Barons Court to Glouester Rd. two stops costs far more than a trip from Earl's Court to Tower Hill, about 12 stops. A flat fare makes much more sense and it should be instituted in the other places as well.
Totally against that idea! It hurts those who live in the outer boroughs. I'd rather see the fare go up to $2.
I agree with the folks who think it's a bad idea. I like the system we have now, rather.
Political issues notwithstanding, I doubt this could be implemented
for less than $500 million! Consider what should be an
electronic "no-brainer": changing the automated announcements on
the new tech trains. Can't seem to get that done, and that's a
simple matter of downloading a few files from a laptop.
Re-programming MetroCard to be zone-based would be like
building the pyramids.
It makes sense economically. There's no reason someone who rides a mile or two on a local that's well-used around the clock should pay as much as someone who starts on a lightly used bus and transfers to an express that runs empty off-peak to ride another dozen or so miles. While the overall farebox recovery ratio on the subway system may be 62%, I have a feeling that some passengers are paying in the single digits while others are paying over 200%. That leads to poor use of limited resources.
Unfortunately, the logistics render it essentially impossible. Look at the traffic jams at the turnstiles at even a moderately busy station. Imagine what would happen if an exit swipe were required.
A hybrid scheme might be possible if there are only two fare zones. All passengers swipe on entry, and the interzone fare is deducted from the card. Intrazone passengers could then swipe on exit and receive a refund for the differential. Interzone passengers, and anyone in a hurry who doesn't mind paying a bit extra, wouldn't swipe again. (There would be an obvious abuse mechanism, though: swipe at a same-zone station and turn the turnstile but don't exit.)
well what about all the millions of riders who use the outer borough trains- like the q local in the morning which goes express after a couple of stops because no more people can fit in the train and the same is true for every q, w, and f trains in brooklyn, whose riders are actually the ones PAYING for the system in much larger numbers than those of manhattan, comparably 1 million to 6 million
Thanks to the miracle of Drexel's Wireless DragonFly system, I now can post to Subtalk from the Septa Regional Rail platforms! Right now I am on the northernmost platform, for tracks 3 and 4, overlooking the 30th St yd. The signal is fair, could be better and faster, but I'm not complaining.
Right now, behind me, on track 6, there is a train of 3 Silverliner IVs, simply signed as '30th St Station' in black on white, it ran to the end of the platform, stopped with the end of it just about even with my back, it sat there for like 5 minutes while I set this up, and then it blew three quick blasts on the horn, backed up a carlength or so, the reversed again, and headed out the Penn side of the station. I would guess it was an R1 train, cause it had yellow center city signs on the penn side. Unfortunately I didn't think to get a number off it.
A huge Septa consist is rumbling up the Penn side of the station, fully eleven silverliner IVs: 439 440 287 113 114 177 178 159 160 145 and 146 just passed me on track 5, I have never seen so many Silverliner IVs grouped together. It didn't stop, but rolled right through the station, with nothing on the destination boards
Looking out over the yard, I can see a pair of Pennsylvania RR Tuscan Red E8s with a pair of Parlor Cars. Earlier, while I was setting up for this, I noticed them. I ran down and risked the Amtrak Police to take some photos of them, I had hoped ti upload them now, but unfortunately I forgot to bring the interface cable for my cheap arsch digital camera. Still, they are beautiful looking, they really stand out from the Amtrak stuff. Anybody know whose they are, or where they are going, I didn't grab the numbers, I was busy ducking Ampolice (they're everywhere here), but they would appear in my pictures (assuming they come out).
Some long distace amtrack just pulled in, with a E60 at the front, I think it was #607, but couldn't be sure, becuase it was slighly blocked by a departing NJT AC line train. It was odd because it was Engine,Amfleet, Snack Car (Horizon kind), amfleet, amfleet, Viewliner, baggage, baggage, baggage, a small long distance train with a whole bunch of Baggage cars on it? Just seems odd to me.
Further over the yard, on the west side, I see that MARC's HHP-8s are still sitting here, will they ever make use of them? and one track to the east is an ACELA (how about this part of the yard now becomes Conbardier Row? theres like 3 HHP8s and 2 Acelas over there.), I want to say that the southernmost power car is 2015, but it could be 2005, with people walking along the side, poking something into the trucks. Another Acela is parked almost right next to the fueling rack, which is odd, cause usually the Acelas are further west by conbardier row.
Theres 2 P42s out in the yard, one is #6, I think they'll be the Pensylvainians Power, and their playing with an Ambox that just came out of the Postal Loading area all the way to the east of the Station. And now I get it, the E60 pulled thing was the New York leg of the Pennsylvainian pulling in!
An HHP-8 just pulled in with a metroliner or something, which means that we have something like 6 HHP-8s sitting in the yard or station right now. And another pair of P42s just pulled off of one of the Eastern tracks, now E60 601 is moving in to take charge of their train.
A couple of minutes ago an AEM-7AC, (I want to say #943, but it's far off and I can't see to good, might be 953 if it's been overhauled)) pulled up infront of the E8s, they haven't coupled yet. I'm now wondering if the E8s will be pulled up to New York or somewhere for something, that would be a shot worth taking. Now the P42s from the Silver Metor or whatever it was that just pulled in are backing toward the engine area, I think, couldn't see where else they'd be going.
Looking at Conbardier Row, I can see some technicians or something standing around by one of the cars, one of them had 'Bombardier' in big letters on the back of his shirt, I can read it from here. He just shrugged and shook his head, whatever they're working on must have them comfused, since they all just started walking back to one of the
The other Acela (the one by the engine rack) is now being towed by a P42, I think it's 109, and I don't see a number on the power car of the Acela. It's being towed VERY slowly, I'd guess that the P42 is playing yard goat, and that the Acela is headed for Conbardier Row. the Acela/P42 just stopped, and some kind of track work equipment, looks like a crane, but can't tell, it's orange, just pulled in, and now the P42/Acela is moving again, heading under Spring Garden St. Where I lost sight of it.
Yep, the P42 pair that just moved into the yard was one of the northbound long distance trains, Dunno which one, but it's consist was: E60 #601, Baggage, Baggage, dorm, Viewliner, Viewliner, Heritage Diner, Amfleet Cafe, Amfleet, Amfleet, Amfleet, Amfleet, and Ambox. It headed north at 2:25, I'll have to go check the board to see what it was.
And now the Pennsylvainian is leavingm with P42 6 andf 64, Ambox, Ambox, Baggage, Baggage, Viewliner, Heritage Diner, Amfleet, Amfleet, and 7 RailRoaders.
Now the Acela is pulling back into Conbardier Row, the P42 is still pushing, all Pans are down, and still I cannot make out a number for the power car, I wonder what happened to it, why'd it dye, oh wait, stupid question. It's coming in on the track that the Marc HHP-8 is on, and it is just to the west of the other Acela.
The yard goat just left, a GP7, headed north, it's now sitting just before the Spring Garden Bridge, but I cannot follow up on what it is doing, becuase my battery is running out, and there are few power outlets up here.
Good Bye from 30th St station, I spent just about an hour up here telling you what was where, hope it was somewhat enjoyable.
Now all you need is a live webcam so we can see images live. LOL
Hey, don't laugh, if I get a dorm in East or North Hall (assuming that I get a dorm at all) next year, especially an east facing dorm in east hall on like the 3rd or 4th floor, you can bet I will get a webcam, at least for the time that I have school, since Sophomore year starts the Co-ops at Drexel. Right now I'm hoping for a summer coop, since then I could kinda tell myself it's more like a summer job than anything else.
Does anybody know how I would go about broadcasting my webcam? I figured I'd try to snap up a cheap desktop and expensive Webcam/cheap camcorder to run the pictures through to a website. That way my laptop is available for my use on campus. East Hall towers over the west side of SEPTA's 30th St yard, and would offer good views of trains coming and going from the Penn side of the station, especially after about 11 or so am, since then the sun moves to the south, out of the camera's lense.
But now I am getting ahead of myself, I think I may have to try this again, this time with my camera's cable, so that I can come within 5 or so minutes off of live. I will get those pics of the E8s uploaded soon and will post a link here, they don't look the best, the light was wrong and my camera decided to reset it's exposure value for some reason, plus I was to worried about meeting the cops I had seen down there rather than composing shots.
Oh my, you are crazy. What are you doing out railfanning on a weekday? Don't you have school to go to? :)
Hehe, thank you,
I had finished with classes. Just a physics quiz in the morning, then a Humanities lecture, out by 1, since my partner for Materials Engineering couldn't meet, I had some time on my hands. I figured I'd go see what was going on at 30th St, and check out the range of my wireless card. I must say I was impressed, the map showed it going with low speeds to just short of the platforms, but my card was humming along at 11mbs all the time. And railfanning is best on weekdays, that's when there's the most trains out, I hate going out on a Sunday and seeing nothing but empty rails.
I fully support your activities and any future application of a webcam pointing out of your dorm room window! I'd love to have a view like that. Kinda makes up for having to go to college.
---Brian
I finally got the shots from Monday uploaded to my webshots account. The only photos taken that day were the shots of the E8s that were down in the yard. I wish I had paid a bit more attention to shot composition and lighting and so on, but, oh well. There are six photos, at the bottom of my page.
Wdobner's Webshot Account
heh, couldn't you get far enough from the E8 to get a good quarter-angle shot? heh.
Sorry to rain on your parade -- I guess you were too paranoid about Ampolice. You have to practice your "looking like an employee" skills. Here are a few quarter angle shots that I took from within a yard:
CSX 324
Conrail Intermodal
MBTA 902
Damn, none of my good yard shots are online...
That having been said, I did print off your E8 photo and post them in the lounge here. That's a rare honor :) Congratulations.
AEM7
If anybody else (besides me) doesn't get tired of looking at PRR E8's, my shots from May 9, 2002, chasing the Legislators' Express are on my Webshots page.
The Amtrak yard has been an interesting place lately. I usually get a peek from my bus on the way in every AM. In addition to the NJT ALP and the E8's, I've noticed Arrow III's there off and on. There was a set there this AM. Don't know why.
E-8 #5711 & 5809 are part of Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal Company.
He rents them out to various groups.
There was a feature about a recent trip in the June 2002 issue of Railpace.
It is very good to see pieces of RxR history still running the rails.
In the main section, (A1), I say some photos of how parents were manuvering their toddlers up and down the staircase. If anyone wants to know, the station is Herald Square, the Broadway Lines level.
I have the paper, but I dunno how to do online links. Anyway, it brought up a good thought in my mind. How do you think strollers should be dealth with anyway? I mean, are they ok or do they cause a nuisance. I mean, telling from the pics, it's seems pretty bad. See ya later.
strollers, wheeled luggage, legitimate shopping carts are all reasons why nominally "able" persons should support ADA upgrades on an expedited basis--besides we are all getting older thus some of us less mobile.
Amen to that!
"Anyway, it brought up a good thought in my mind. How do you think strollers should be dealth with anyway? I mean, are they ok or do they cause a nuisance. I mean, telling from the pics, it's seems pretty bad. See ya later."
Well that depends. Do you think kids are a nuisance? From the pics, it seems pretty bad.
Do you have any kids? Considering how much of a nuisance they are on the subway, would you want to have any?
:0)
Heh, I have none.
I thought so.
>>In the main section, (A1), I say some photos of how parents were manuvering their toddlers up and down the staircase. If anyone wants to know, the station is Herald Square, the Broadway Lines level<<
I guess they aren't aware of the handicapped elevator that's nearby.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>I guess they aren't aware of the handicapped elevator that's nearby. <<<
Oh, they're aware of it. I have told many people of the existance of the elevators at 34th/HS, but they still insist on using the stairs and escalators. Go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have used the elevator when traveling with luggage. It's a sturdy ewlevator, vandal resistant, but it does occasionally get the "vagrant" treatment. The TA needs to use a water hose on it more frequently.
True, they do have a rather pungent aroma that really does defy description. Sort of 1/2 urine and 1/2 of that disgusting cherry scented cleanser that the TA uses. Don't know which is worse.
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL, my friend's apartment building has that same smell combo in the elevator. They both smell like crap.
They are no where's near annoying as the @#$%@#$% dotcommie idiots who insist on bringing their bicycles on board the L train at Bedford Ave.
NO, actually it is time for NYCT to join the movement to allow bikes explicitly at off hours and in uncrowded directions. In the Bay Area BART allows bikes at specidic times and most of the local buses have racks, all of which facillitates seamless travel from A to B.
I ask this beacuse As I walk over the Bedford Park Boulevard bridge to the #4 train station, I see a pretty empty section of yard with nothing but redbirds ( from all lines), in one corner. How do they plan to get those from concourse all the way to 207st? Is there a connection VIA the D train line?
They go to Fordham Rd. and take the #12 bus.
What's with the sarcastic answer?????
I thought it was funny as well as sarcastic. What is the big deal.
Yes. there is a track connection at the North end it goes into the Concourse line. Trains can relay back North at Homeball Alley and then run via the A line. You can check the track maps on www.nycsubway.org
Thanks for responding subway-buff@mindspring.com!!
Currently, there are 70 redbirds in Concourse yard - about 20 more than planned.
From Concourse Yard, the trains can either go via the 4 line (south) & connect with the 7th Ave line where they can turn north to the flyover into 207th St yard or they can head south on the concourse line to 135th Street where they can be turned north via the A line to 207th St yd. However, this would require cars with IND tripcocks to be added to the consist.
On the condemned list, I presume.
On death row but some may get a temporary stay.
I've buried quite a few now but the ressurection is amazing...my favorites went to labor detail but were released into RTO. Kinda like our Eastern European friends with the strange tatoos. CI Peter
Thanks for responding Train dude!!
Lautenberg gets to run:
http://www.newsday.com/ny-ustorr1007,0,2133199.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dspan%2Dheadlines
Subway Q & A is back on MetroTV( channel 70 for Time Warner Cable customers). 7:00 and 7:30PM EDT. Starts Tonight with others scheduled for tonight and tomorrow.
Bklyn
I used to like that show. I really missed it. I didn't see it often, but it was nice to see once in a while.
I don't have cable....so why did my R33 DBRT board fail to respond to full release/15 pounds/45 pounds/full service? CI Peter
Interesting reading, albeit a couple years old.
http://www.nylovesbiz.com/Press/2000/oneseat2.htm
Quote from the nylovesbiz press release:
"A "one-seat" ride, similar to the highly successful Heathrow Express in London,..."
I'd question whether the Heathrow Express is highly successful, and it provides a one-seat ride only to the extreme northwestern corner of central London. What *is* true in London is that the slow old tube provides a one-seat ride from Heathrow to the heart of central London (Piccadilly Circus) - and at about a quarter the fare of the Heathrow Express.
Paris would have been a better example to use -- Charles de Gaulle to the centre on the RER, an express service with a one-seat ride.
Fytton.
People read too much into the "one-seat ride."
The Heathrow Express goes to Paddington Station, does it not? I'd hardly call that an isolated location. You can get to lots of other places from there.
Is Paddington's connections to the Underground equipped with elevators and escalators?
Paddington's Underground arrangements are (to put it mildly) a bit confusing for visitors. The Hammersmith & City line operates from two platforms in Paddington main line station - moderately convenient for transfer from the Heathrow Express, but I don't think you can get from the Heathrow Express platforms to the H&C platforms without using stairs. The Bakerloo Line platforms are deep and have escalators, but as usual in old deep tube stations it is necessary to climb a few stairs as well. The Circle and District lines serve an old-fashioned subsurface station, with stairs and (I think) no escalators. Overall disabled access, not good.
My objection to the Heathrow Express is that having paid your high fare for a quick trip you get taken only to Paddington, where you then have to pay a tube fare and get on to the slow Underground anyway, unless your destination is close to Paddington. The cheaper and more frequent (though slower) Piccadilly Line gives a one-seat ride to a whole raft of central London stations, including several in areas with lots of hotels. And for that one fare you can transfer on to any other Underground line, and thus get a two-seat ride from Heathrow to pretty much any tube station in London.
I see.
Tw observations:
1) If the Heathrow Express is to be successful, Paddington Station must be luggage friendly. The simplest way to do this is to make the station conform to Britain's version of ADA. Additional amenities would be nice (can you buy an air ticket and check your luggage there? Are there airline departure or arrivals monitors at Paddington?).
2) It's unrealistic to expect a commuter train to give you access to the entire city from the airport. If the train gods granted the fondest dreams of railbuffs in New York, the LIRR would twirl around JFK, whisk you along a rebuilt Rockaway Line - but would still only take you to either Jamaica, Grand Central or Penn Station. Do any of those locations qualify as the entire city? Of course not. You have to continue your ride by subway. But you gained precious time by using commuter rail for the trip. On the other hand, the A train is slower, but drops you off anywhere you want.
So why should you want more out of British Rail?
1) If the Heathrow Express is to be successful, Paddington Station must be luggage friendly. The simplest way to do this is to make the station conform to Britain's version of ADA.
To clarify, Heathrow Express runs into Paddington mainline (as opposed to subway) station. All platforms have level/ramped access to the street. But the co-located subway stations (two stations on four lines) are not accessible.
The stations at Heathrow (one serving Terminals 1 to 3, the other serving Terminal 4) are underground but the platforms are accessible from all terminals by lift (and escalator).
Additional amenities would be nice (can you buy an air ticket and check your luggage there? Are there airline departure or arrivals monitors at Paddington?).
Yes to all. Although some airlines have suspended luggage checkin since 9/11.
"Yes to all. Although some airlines have suspended luggage checkin since 9/11."
So long as xray or "bomb-sniffing" can occur at the airport under the supervision of trustworthy people, that suspension is unnecessary and pointless.
"The simplest way to do this is to make the station conform to Britain's version of ADA."
But just as in NY, doing that to a 100 to 150-year-old rail transit system is easier said than done! (Ours is the DDA = Disability Discrimination Act.)
"To clarify, Heathrow Express runs into Paddington mainline (as opposed to subway) station. All platforms have level/ramped access to the street. But the co-located subway stations (two stations on four lines) are not accessible"
As I said in a previous post, the Underground actually is four lines in *three* places, one of which (the Hammersmith & City line) is in the main line station. While all the main line platforms have level access to the street, and (I think) so does the Hammersmith-bound platform of the Hammersmith & City, I don't think there is level access to the City-bound platform of the H&C.
Final point - the Heathrow Express is run by the BAA, the owners of Heathrow Airport, not by any of the railway companies, and so no tickets other than its own are valid on it. It is specifically excluded from the One Day Capitalcard, the London equivalent of the FunPass, which is valid on virtually all other rail and bus systems within the boundaries of Greater London.
So BAA created a premium train requiring a premium fare.
This is not entirely inconsistent with other transit agencies. For example, Newark AirTrain requires a premium fare; and SEPTA's R1 Airport Line always charges a peak-rate fare regardless of time of travel. However, the R1's tickets are the same as any other SEPTA train, you can buy them anywhere you buy other SEPTA tickets, and you can even use a lower-fare ticket and pay the difference on the train.
In Newark, your Amtrak ticket gets you on AirTrain with no further payment, and you pre-pay your AirTrain fare when you buy a NJ Transit ticket to go to the airport.
The last time I used Heathrow Express, I saw that the ticket machines at the airport offered a combination Heathrow Express and Underground ticket. I don't remember if it offered any kind of discount on either for getting both at once, but even if not, that's more convenient than the Newark scheme where you get one "combined" (NJT/Amtrak and AirTrain) ticket that gets you to Newark Penn or NY Penn, but then you have to pay a separate fare for the PATH or subway. Then again, the various fare payment methods in the NYC area are quite disconnected and confusing anyway, so maybe I should be thankful that we don't have the pay the $5-7 AirTrain surcharge using yet another separate ticket.
Good point.
I believe one of the major airlines (American I think) has baggage check at Paddington. And yes, there are no stairs heading into the station. I had no problems at all there last Nov.20. The 12 pound fare to Heathrow was a small price to pay for a 15-minute HIGH SPEED ride. Plenty of room for the luggaget too. And they leave every 12 minutes. I wish that we had something as fast, inexpensive and convenient as that here in NYC. EWR air-train to NJT to NY Penn to LIRR = a Pain in the Pullman.
wayne
"EWR air-train to NJT to NY Penn to LIRR = a Pain in the Pullman."
It's interesting (to me at least) that I've found departing from Newark using Airtrain much more of a pleasure than arriving. When departing, I can time my LIRR to NJT connection nicely and the frequent Airtrain makes it a very smooth trip. I've gone from Rockville Centre to my departure gate in 1 hour and 15 minutes.
Returning has been more of a hassle. It seems I usually get to the NJT platform just a minute after a train has departed, which can mean a sizeable wait (NJT may have 3 trains per hour to Penn, but they don't schedule them every 20 minutes). The biggest insult came one time when I took the elevator down from the concourse to platform level. During the time that the unbelievably slow elevator descended, the NJT train pulled into the station, opened it's doors, detrained and boarded passengers, closed up and pulled out. I got to watch this all from my stylish glass enclosed elevator car -- too bad it looks good and functions poorly.
On the brighter side, I did arrive in RVC 1:35 after my plane touched down at EWR a few weeks ago -- so it isn't always horrible.
CG
Wouldn't it be nice if NJT would allow Amtrak tickets on board trains?
This way, you could increase your level of convenience by paying more money for an EWR-Penn Amtrak ticket, but knowing that you could ride any train going in, Amtrak or NJT. I believe this would increase the trains available to you to between 4-5 trains per hour, possibly more at rush hours (but they still wouldn't be evenly spaced).
The 12 pound fare to Heathrow was a small price to pay for a 15-minute HIGH SPEED ride. Plenty of room for the luggaget too. And they leave every 12 minutes. I wish that we had something as fast, inexpensive and convenient as that here in NYC. EWR air-train to NJT to NY Penn to LIRR = a Pain in the Pullman.
That interesting. I've recently done two similar city to airport journeys encumbered by more luggage than I would care to carry on a subway or tube. In both cases I took taxis to my starting point so neither were technically one-seat.
My first journey was by NJT and Airtrain from NY Penn Station to Newark Airport. I didn't find changing from NJT to Airtrain that much of a problem, and Airtrain took me directly into the terminal I wanted.
My second journey was by Heathrow Express from Paddington to Heathrow T123. No change, but the Heathrow T123 station is in deep tunnel between the three central area terminals. So to get from the station to the terminal involves several minutes of underground passages and moving walkways.
I reckon the direct access to the terminal aspect of NJT/Airtrain well outweighs the one-seat aspect of Heathrow Express.
Where Heathrow Express does score is that it is a dedicated non-stop airport service with comfortable seating, proper luggage facilities and a clockface schedule of 4 trains an hour. But a similar service could still be provided to Newark or JFK without needing a one-seat ride.
Although I don't use the Heathrow Express myself, I concede that perceived as an isolated operation is is quite neat. For a foreign visitor to London, especially perhaps someone with mobility problem, a taxi between your hotel and Paddington followed by the Heathrow Express is probably cheaper than a taxi all the way to Heathrow. And since it was designed exclusively as an airport operation, of course it deals with luggage. It *is* quick. Bbut the relatively low frequency (which I heard had been reduced to every 20 minutes, but I could have been misinformed) and the transferring time at Paddington reduce that advantage to some extent.
It would be great if the Heathrow Express were ever linked into the future CrossRail [unless that turns out to be London's Second Avenue Subway (8-) which it may]. That would make it very similar to the Paris Charles de Gaulle service.
As a general-purpose transit access to the airport, though, I stick with the view that a line that runs every five minutes, is less than one-third the price, and has through ticketing (at a saving) with other transit lines has a lot of advantages!
"As a general-purpose transit access to the airport, though, I stick with the view that a line that runs every five minutes, is less than one-third the price, and has through ticketing (at a saving) with other transit lines has a lot of advantages! "
Yes, it does. It's nice to have a choice.
>>> For a foreign visitor to London, especially perhaps someone with mobility problem, a taxi between your hotel and Paddington followed by the Heathrow Express is probably cheaper than a taxi all the way to Heathrow <<<
A historical note. I seem to remember that prior to the Heathrow Express, there was a central air terminal in London with ticket counters and check in facilities for the airlines, including baggage check in, and then transfer by bus to the airport where the traveler proceeded immediately to the departure gate. A taxi to the airport was therefore was not a popular option. There were plans for a train to provide more reliable service, not subject to the increasing traffic congestion which could delay buses.
When arriving at Heathrow, customs and immigration checks were done at the airport, but I seem to remember there was no additional fare for the bus ride to the central air terminal. If my memory is inaccurate, please post a correction.
Tom
Do they exist? I have a NCC trackmap, but it's before the extension.
Anybody out there have a clue whether the Sea Beach is going on the bridge to Brooklyn this coming weekend? Last May when I was in town it went over the bridge to Brooklyn but used the Montague rat hole on the way back to Pacific Street. If so, what days will it be on the bridge. Needless to say, I plan to ride the Fred Train.
Not at this time. Nothing is mentioned on the TA website.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvnn.htm
Though it is updated Friday.
Brighton will be running express one way in brooklyn skipping Newkirk as more lead paint removal is done. It was Coney last weekend, I don't know which way this weekend yet.
The N doesn't leave Brooklyn at all on weekends or at night anymore, due to the Stillwell work.
Both this past weekend and this coming weekend, Manhattan-bound W trains run on the Sea Beach express track. Coney Island-bound W trains use the West End as always, but they run over the bridge (the weekend W normally uses the tunnel now). So if you don't mind sitting through the West End run, you can take a W train from Manhattan over the bridge and down the West End to Stillwell, and then return on the same train via the Sea Beach express (but via tunnel back to Manhattan).
Thanks Dave. Not what I wanted to hear but at least I know what trains to ride this coming weekend.
See, your stuck in Brooklyn on the Sea Beach. You should come up to East Haven and ride the arnine.
Lou: Thanks for the offer but being stuck on the Sea Beach in Brooklyn is not a nightmare for me. Remember, the Sea Beach and Brooklyn were featured parts of my childhood. Besides, #1 Brighton Express Bob will be in town this weekend and can't go to Branford either so we will railfan in the city. Maybe next year. Steve8AVEXP will be in Branford on Sunday and then will ride the rails with me and whoever else shows up on Monday and Tuesday. Have a good time.
That may be the first thing I do on Saturday once I'm checked into my hotel - take a W on the Sea Beach express. Sorry Fred, I gotta ride on those express rails one way or another.:)
No prrrooooobbbbluuuuummmmmm. Go for it.
I'm going to give you a call this afternoon. Doug Wengeroff, who organized a railfan trip for me on April 1 of last year, wants to join us for dinner and wants to know where he should meet us. I told him I'm not sure and would check it out with you. I can't wait to get on that plane tomorrow.
The Post had a short story on increasing objections to the planned passageway between the World Financial Center/Battery Park City and the subway lines between Church and William streets.
The story isn't very specific on exactly who is against it, and certainly doesn't mention the feelings of the BPC residents and WFC workers who want a better connection to the subways, but given the growing number of complaints about any project related to the WTC rebuilding, the fact that this is now in doubt doesn't surprise me. In the end, for $4.5 billion, the only downtown improvements may end up being new green globes next to all the existing 24/7 subway entrances, and maybe a couple of extra MVM locations.
"The story isn't very specific on exactly who is against it, and certainly doesn't mention the feelings of the BPC residents and WFC workers who want a better connection to the subways, but given the growing number of complaints about any project related to the WTC rebuilding, the fact that this is now in doubt doesn't surprise me. "
You didn't read the story. All you did was post the link. The story says that some people want more than just an underground passageway. They want to rebuild living space. This is compatible with a new transit hub, but will require more planning and coordination with area businesses.
as with any plan in New York, everybody wants a piece of it. So be it. Some of the ideas expressed in the story will dovetail nicely with the PA's proposal.
The sotry failed to connect with any mention of the proposals for rebuilding an undergrond mall in the WTC area, which I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) would be incorporated within or adjacent to any pedestrian connection between the WFC and Broadway.
The story implies that the tunnel connection is all but dead, with the final sentence in the story (which I assume you read) stating:
But today, many planners consider the western portion unlikely, and the idea of a cross-island subterranean connector has been reduced to a block-long transfer between the Church Street hub and the subway station at Broadway.
To me, that sounds more like a BANANA sentiment than any desire to build a more complex underground passage way than what was originally proposed.
From the Post article: "It may be good from a transportation point of view to connect points A and B, but it doesn't say much about the life of the city if it's just an underground tunnel," said Hugh Hardy, an architect who examined the concourse idea for the civic group New York New Visions.
"The glory of New York is the streets. These gruesome tunnels ought to be reimagined as public space, not just transportation connections."
What utter nonsense. Clearly, Mr Hardy and NY New Visions have never visited Underground Montreal, the underground passageways around Tokyo's Central Station or even Rockefeller Center's underground concourse. These are but a few examples of multiple use underground corridors that bring the excitment of street below ground, in an automobile free climate controlled atmosphere.
I agree with you, Stephen.
Well, it is the Post, which means we have to take the whole story with a large crystal of salt.
(Well, it is the Post, which means we have to take the whole story with a large crystal of salt. )
The Post has been pushing for SOMETHING to get builtt to restore the city's job and tax base, rather than have everything stalled by egotistical "visonaries," and they have been right (for once). The other newspapers have been wrong. So this is the Post's revenge.
If that is their editorial view, I side with them. I was referring to the accuracy of their reporting, however, which s not always square.
"the fact that this is now in doubt doesn't surprise me."
The idle musings of some random architect interviewed by the Post do not put the project in doubt. There would be reason for concern if a high official of the LMDC or the PA, or the governor or mayor, were really negative, but this guy is irrelevant.
While the Post certainly does have it's own agenda on things, and shouldn't be taken as gospel, at the same time, everything in the Post shouldn't be dismissed. The story itself expresses the same sort of creeping intertia the entire WTC rebuilding process is experiening, which is why it wouldn't surprise me if there is some truth behind the ieda that there's a growing desire not to build the tunnel.
The comments in the story make it sound as though the architect is imaganing the tunnels as something equivalent to the 14th St. passageway between Sixth and Seventh Aveunes, which casts it in the worst possible light. Others may not hold such a strong negative opinion but may be leaning in that direction.
As for the Post's agenda, the paper is in favor of doing something down there now rather than later, and the headline and story may be their way of launching a pre-emptive strike against what they see as a move to delay or kill another WTC-related project. I wish they'd feel as strongly about the Second Ave. subway project...
It's a pity emotion gets in place of this project. Whoever's righr or wrong and even if this article does tell it 'as it is', the result shall be seen if the people at the top do it right (or wrong).
last week, i was turning off sunrise highway in merrick and a train was stopping in the station which looked like something from outer space- it was a shiny metallic color, with green lights above every door which turned red when the doors opened, and big electronic signs saying the trains destination (babylon, my train line)
any idea when more of these will come into service? because ive only seen this train once
See this thread:
LIRR M7's
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:7C3bziA7P1YC:www.nyrail.org/+nyrail&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
That's good, it means only the front page was changed. Everything else on the site is still there.
What would happen to the B,D,F,N,R,Q,V,W in 2004
would the B and the D restore back to Coney Island.
What is going to happened to the W and the Q train in 2004. Would the V train would continue running in Queens in 2004.
Answer me back in my email address which is
AngelVasquez7@aol.com
Nothing's changed since this guy asked the same question a couple of days ago. But in case he didn't read the answer at the time:
NYCT is evaluating options. There is no point in asking for definitive answers right now, because there are no definitive answers right now.
David
There's no definite answer because its 2002 but this is what I believe is going to happen:
B Back to pre 7/22/01
D Back to pre 7/22/01
N Returns to CI via Sea Beach, express via 4 Av, bridge & B'way to Astoria
F Back to pre 9/8/02 but Culver express may return
R Would stay the same
Q Same as post 7/22/01 but runs weekdays express via Brighton, bridge & Broadway
V May go to Church Av or Kings Hwy with F
W This is a ??? but I believe it will become a local from Astoria to Whitehall or Coney Island
Hope this helps
That's my guess too, but I'd be surprised if they extended the V to Church by 2004. That's more of a debatable luxury, hardly worth setting in stone.
It only help Flatbush if your take on the Sea Beach is correct. I want to see it back on the bridge and an express not only on 4th Avenue, but also in Manhattan as it once was. Then I will be pleased.
Yesterday I was on the 4.25 out of White Plains headed towards GCT. Just north of Melrose we hit someting, it was very loud, sparks flying everywhere, grinding noises, i was in the first car and it was pretty scary. Train stopped crew gets out but they don't see anything. They start moving the train again, and this time there are even more sparks, louder noises, and the power goes out, and a small fire under the last car.
Turn out there was part of a chain link fence and pole wedged under the first and second car. The crew kept us very well informed explaining it was wedge between the wheel and the break-shoe.
Finally after 30 minutes they were able to get it out, they thought they might have to call welders but they didn't. It was so quiet in the first car we could clearly hear all the radio traffic about the incident.
It took them a while to reenergize the 3rd rail and we were on our way.
How did the fence get onto the track? Did somebody run a pick up into it on the other side and push it out? Di somebody cut it open and peel it back to trespass on the tracks?
Peter,
Thanks for the report about the incident on the 4:25 express
to GCT. My wife rides that run regularly and she was there,
don't know what car. Am forwarding her your post. She'll
get a kick out of what happened.
;| ) Sparky
My question is: how did the fence get in such a position that it could get snagged by an MU?
I moved away from New York to Boston in August, and it has been a while since I rode up from GCT to the Trans Center as the bi-weekly shuttle up to corporate headquarters. Aren't they doing track work or construction along that stretch? Between the X-County (like Fleetwood) and Hartsdale I know they are doing trackwork. Or at least they were. But what are they doing down by Melrose, if anything? Or was this fence snag not related to construction?
Matt
The conductors repeatedly kept blaming the "vandals" who do vandalism on the tracks all the time. I'm assuming the fence just didn't accidentally appear right there.
There is an interesting article in today's Times about a film project in the subways. "Video artist" Neil Goldberg is using a handheld camera to film the reactions of people who just miss their trains. It sounds like a cool idea, but does raise some issues - I, for one, would not want someone filming me in that manner, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
I, for one, would not want someone filming me in that manner, and I'm sure I'm not alone
heh. I couldn't care less, if someone was filming me. I also get very irate when I miss the train, so I'd make for a good act. Too bad he's not filming in BOS.
I am wondering if this artist is an expressionist follower. He seems to focus on the terrible things in life. Perhaps he has inner anger and grief that he has never been able to come to terms with. Did someone accidentally lob his birthday cake onto the carpet and failed to provide a replacement when he was a child?
I think this guy should work with me. I have so many terrible expressions as I go through my day. Maybe I am an expressionist too, and I think things are always terrible.
AEM7
Maybe he just knows people put on good shows when they miss trains...
Mark
Oh great ... first Salaam, now THIS!
(Note to self ... new excuse when asked what I am doing ... I am conducting an art project for Neil Goldberg .... :)
--Mark
Oh great ... first Salaam, now THIS!
Speaking of whom, haven't heard anything from him lately... did he get back to the left coast without further incident or did someone end up making him an offer he couldn't refuse for a few days' lodging at the taxpayers' expense?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the purpose of seeing peeps missing a train? I'd rather get the reaction of the peeps on the platform that can't get onto the train b/c it either bypasses them or it is far too crowded to get on.
Now that'll stir a reaction.
#1979 3 7 Ave Express
If I see this guy taping I'm gonna put on a real show with cusses out the wazzo.
This seems like taking CANDID CAMERA a few steps too far. What if the person being filmed does something illegal in anger from having missed their train, like throwing something down on the platform? That could be used as police entrapment.
Or the person could see Mr. Goldberg filming their misfortune and have their anger increase exponentially to the point where they physically lash out at him in the fashion of a celebrity towards a paraparrazi. Then you've got a photographer in the hospital and his subject under arrest.
In August, when an uncrowded N21 Long Island bus passed me right by at an unobstructed marked stop, my gut reaction was to run out into Northern Boulevard in pursuit of said bus. When this failed, I retreated to the sidewalk uttering profanities possibly inappropriate in public, but reflexive of the situation. A Village of Lake Success police officer witnessed the entire event and told me that being passed by a bus is no legal defense for running out into the street or cussing in public, and that I should consider myself lucky he didn't arrest or summons me (First Amendement rights be damned!).
If a law enforcement official can threaten someone for having a primal reaction, then anyone wishing to photograph people likely to have similar primal reactions is just ASKING for- AND making trouble.
Of course, speaking from a frivolous, vouyeristic point of view, it WOULD be funny to see on film people reacting to such things as:
-Weekend GOs causing the wrong train to arrive at the station.
-Weekend GOs causing the train to arrive at the wrong station.
-Weekend GOs causing the local to run express.
-Garbled condutor or platform announcements.
-The automated announcement completely contradicting the next-station sign and/or route map on a 142 or 143.
-The turnstile reading "Swipe Again" over and over and over-
-A vendor, aggressive panhandler, loud musician, or blathering preacher coming into their car- just to see how quickly people can bury their faces in their newspaper, or pretend to be asleep.
-Being denied access to the train by people blocking the doors.
-Being rebuffed by people who refuse to move their belongings from the seat next to them, or block an empty window seat.
-The cell phone fading out when the train goes underground.
-A group of railfans loaded down with bulky photography equipment fighting over a railfan window.
Thats very interesting.
I, for one, never care if I miss a subway. At least in New York, I would tell myself that there was always another train; its not like it was the last train ever. Its very Zen of me. Sometimes the T pulls in the minute I walk into the station. Other times I just miss it. But T's come every 5 minutes (at least when I'm commuting), and I have that stupid Metro paper to read and all the cute undergrad girls to flirt with, so I just relax and take it easy. My commute time is between 42 and 47 minutes depending on T karma (time to wait for a T), and it is fairly evenly distributed.
However,
I don't like being filmed, and I don't like having my picture taken. While he wouldn't get much of a reaction out of me missing the train, if he tried to take my picture, he'd get nothing but a Bronx salute or a picture of my incoming fist.
So as Zen as I am about all this, I'd still wind up arrested for assault and possibly battery ;)
Matt
Geez, reading the article as I cam home, I found in to be rather humorus. Bus by telling by the replies of the origal post, some people are taking it a bit far. Yes, it's like Candid Camera and I'm sure most people can admit to laughing at people when something bad happens to them. People have done it all around. When I'm miss a train, I exhale and that's it! All I do is wait, knowing one is coming in at least 5 minutes. It's funny how some passengers react as depicted in the article. Good read this tuesday.
I'm sure they get quite a few curses being screamed out at the stations. I'm sure most stations "hear" the dictionary of curses many times over during the course of a day.
Does anyone know what happened to the Warehouse Point website at www.ceraonline.org? It now seems to be some band's website. It was pretty good, too, with a lot of roster data. I did a Yahoo! search and came up with the above URL. Help?
Frank Hicks
Guess what--- It's been hacked, too.
"Guess what--- It's been hacked, too."
I guess so, but I had my doubts... I had thought that something legitimate had taken place, i.e. a domain transfer. The nyrail.org hacking was obviously a hacking, with a simplistic message in place and the rest of the website besides the homepage left intact. The new ceraonline.org site is not only fairly complex and seemingly legitimate (although a little weird), but none of the old Warehouse Point links are in place, meaning the entirety of the old site is gone. Hmm...
Frank Hicks
The guy who maintains their web site is no longer active
in the organization. It looks like they are in the process
of moving the web site to a hosting company. Their NIC
record was last updated on October 5. For a long while,
every access to the site was giving back an access denied.
Probably the hosting company has not yet started things up
on their end or there is some config error. I'm sure they'll
figure it out eventually!
Gee, I'm sorry to here that. I met him one of the times I operated up there this summer & thought he was going to keep maintaining the site even though he begged off some of the other tasks he was involved with.
One of the nice features of their site was a chat room for members.
The fleet bios with photos was also something I liked & helped this year with some addition photos.
BTW, This week-end starts their Punkin Pick'en event (last Saturday they were laying down the platform & ramp across the rails while operations was going on ... also in a neat move their 25 tonner went down the line with a trailer that had two picnic benches on it. The crew was all smiles packed into the little cab.)
Whois says:
"domain: ceraonline.org
status: production
origin-c: webmaster@ceraonline.org#0
organization: The Connecticut Electric Railway Association
owner: Association President
email: webmaster@ceraonline.org#0
address: 58 North Road
address: P.O. Box 360
city: East Windsor
state: CT
postal-code: 06088-0360
country: US
admin-c: louis.grimaldi@ceraonline.org#0
tech-c: dan.okun@mail.attbi.com#0
billing-c: louis.grimaldi@ceraonline.org#0
nserver: ns.websitesource.com
nserver: ns2.websitesource.com
registrar: JORE-1
created: 2000-02-17 20:52:03 UTC core
modified: 2002-10-05 12:38:30 UTC JORE-1
expires: 2004-02-17 20:52:03 UTC
source: joker.com
db-updated: 2002-10-09 15:28:46 UTC"
But it still has that band stuff on it.
As fo 11:40 PM Friday, It's still the band. Either a very good hack job, or an ISP operator who doesn't know his a*** from the hole in the ground.
Taking somebody's URL, lock, stock and barrel sounds like a perfect defination of cyber-crime.
Just returned from my week long railfan trip on NYC and wanted to comment on the 1/9 reconstruction.
First of all, I'm amazed at the speed at which the WTC site has been cleared. Absolutely amazing. Riding thru the white sheetmetal lined tunnels thru the site was a bit surreal and sentimental at the same time. Is that rubble under the trackbed, when viewed from the outside, or new dirt?
Second, the tiles at Rector are stunning. I love, but never noticed until now, the rose and sage colored tilework. Beautiful.
Lastly, though it looks temoporary, the metal SF station looks nice. It looks like they cleaned the artwork at the lower level too.
Good job MTA and contractors!
"Is that rubble under the trackbed, when viewed from the outside, or new dirt?"
No rubble and not much new dirt. The underpinning of the 1/9 tracks were not disturbed when the WTC was built around 1970. They were also relatively little disturbed by the collapse of the twin towers. Some steel beams lodged in the dirt, so the trackbed was redone, but without major excavations.
Basically, the rebuilding of the 1/9 consisted of rebuilding a trackbed that was above ground because all surrounding rubble had been removed, and then covering it up.
I too am amazed that they cleaned up the site considering the magnitude of the disaster.
Second, the tiles at Rector are stunning. I love, but never noticed until now, the rose and sage colored tilework. Beautiful.
I agree completely. I saw the renovated station for the first time this weekend, and really loved the color combination of the mosaics, and they really did a great job at restoring them. It's high on the list of attractive stations.
Lastly, though it looks temoporary, the metal SF station looks nice. It looks like they cleaned the artwork at the lower level too.
I was a bit disapointed in the condition of South Ferry. I hadn't been there in a few years, and remember it being in much better shape. I don't know what it is but to me the station looked very run down - or I had a vision of the station from the last time I was there, and remeber it being in such great shape, so I was a bit disapointed when I got off the train.
You guys have noticed that I have not been around. Well, I am posting my messages on board Royal Carribean's "Monarch of the Seas", and at the time that I am posting this message, I am docked in the Cayman Islands about ready to head back to Ft. Lauderdale where I will be on a jet back to Long Island on Thursday. Anyone feel sorry about me on my vacation, or want to ask me on it, post it! Till then, I will be back on site on Friday. Bon Voyage!
I forgot, but is there anything transit related, subway, LIRR, or Metro North that I missed since Saturday?
You guys have noticed that I have not been around. Well, I am posting my messages on board Royal Carribean's "Monarch of the Seas", and at the time that I am posting this message, I am docked in the Cayman Islands about ready to head back to Ft. Lauderdale where I will be on a jet back to Long Island on Thursday. Anyone feel sorry about me on my vacation
It's a safe bet that no one feels sorry for you :)
It's a safe bet that no one feels sorry for you :)
LOL. Yeah, that is true. Although Neil may feel a little sorry for himself when he reads subtalk for the first time when he gets home, and sees the message he posted while on the ship - and wishing he was still there.......I know I would!
And you didn't die of boredom and overeating?
:0)
Ok, so where's your Royal Carribean subway trip report? As large as those cruise ships are, I wouldn't be surprised to see a shuttle line on it (j/k).
Here's a link to the newly-designed MBTA Web site.
Nice. I especially liked the section on projects. I looked briefly at the Urban Ring major investment study, but I didn't have time to read it in-depth. Does anyone know what kind of urban ring ideas are being proposed? Is a circular rail line being proposed?
Mark
It's a very long term project, with three phases... the first being (the dreaded) Bus Rapid Transit. Read the site for more.
Spiffy.
Hey Todd, have they completely re-designed the T hand-held map to look like the one on the website?
Sorry Z, no more T hand-held (hard copy) maps. The sponsor backed out, and so they haven't had one available for many months.
It looks nice! They give a lot of in-depth info on the projects. I like that they put the zone numbers next to the commuter rail stations.
According to this Associated Press story on the Daily News' website the state will buy the building from the federal government for $230 million, and the east side of the building will be converted to a rail station, while the west end will remain in use by the Postal Service, but with 1,600 fewer employees than who currently work there.
Also, something I didn't know about the Foley Building -- the final paragraph says only the front (Eighth Ave.) half was built in 1912, almost concurrent with the construction of Penn Station. The Ninth Ave. side was a WPA project, built in 1934.
It'll be nice to see this station finished...Hopefully, it'll be designed and built in the eye of the original Penn Station. Like a tribute of sorts. When was the original station torn down anyways?
Sadly, the station was torn down in the mid-60's. Demolition started in 1964 or 1965, and I think the "terrible mistake" was done by the end of 1966.
BTW, while on the subject of Penn Station. I was in Penn station for the first time this weekend since they opened up the new NJ Transit Concourse. They did a great job on that. I wonder if anyone here knows the answer to this question though. I remember there was a small row of stores there before they started, but where did they get all that extra space from? What was there before?
Specifically, demolition of Penn Station began at 9 AM on October 28, 1963 when crews started jabbing away with jackhammers at the granite walls on the 7th Ave. side. People who remembered the station only in its final days were surprised to see that the gray granite they were used to seeing was actually pink when the jackhammers exposed it.
People who remembered the station only in its final days were surprised to see that the gray granite they were used to seeing was actually pink when the jackhammers exposed it.
A real shame. Imagine if a resotration on the scale they did on Grand Central was done to Penn. It would have been an amazing building when it was cleaned up - it must have been an amazing building when it was in terrible need of repair!
I would have gone a step further and done away with that clamshell ticket counter in the main waiting room.
As I've said, I never saw Penn Station completely intact. By the time I passed through it in 1965, only the concourse was still standing, but I have no recollection of that.
"What was there before?"
The southeast quarter of Penn (south of 32nd, eastern half of the block) was not accessible to the public. If you walked downstairs from the south end of the 1/2/3 station and headed west, there was a blank wall to your left, even though you were at 32nd St and there was a whole block of Penn station to your left.
The Times says it was storage space, girders supporting 2 Penn Plaza, offices, etc.
Thanks. It just amazed me that all that space was there, as I only do remember the few small stores & wall that was there. Had no idea all that space existed until the other day!
It's very fortunate, indeed, that NJT was allowed to complete their new waiting area before this deal was announced. I see idiocy running rampant here. How does this help comuters? Seems to me that all platforms western limits are at 8th Avenue. How does this help comuters? Aside from alot of money changing hands - where's the benifit?
"How does this help comuters?"
I don't believe it is meant to. I believe it is only for Amtrak. It helps NJT commuters only by getting the Amtrak people out of the way.
"Seems to me that all platforms western limits are at 8th Avenue."
Many of the southern (low number) platforms are under the Post Office too.
"Aside from alot of money changing hands - where's the benifit?"
Good question. It gives Amtrak a more majestic presence in NYC. Is that worth 100s of millions of dollars when Amtrak's very existence is tenuous? I don't think so, but Sen. Moynihan did, and he pushed so hard that the momentum carried through after his retirement.
Remember the discussion of "boondoggle." In my mind, this sure qualifies.
"Remember the discussion of "boondoggle." In my mind, this sure qualifies. "
Would you consider the relatively recent rehabilitation and remodelling of Gand Central to be a "boondoggle?" MTA is perennially in the hole for money.
What's the difference?
The difference is that we are paying the federal government to allow us to improve a federal service. As if we don't pay federal taxes. I hope this will serve as a precedent. Pay up, or excess federal property will be a blot on your community.
"As if we don't pay federal taxes. I hope this will serve as a precedent. Pay up, or excess federal property will be a blot on your community. "
I leave open the possibility that we (all 50 states, not just us) don't pay enough in federal taxes. So if we want something in particular, yeah,we have to pay a bit more for it. The emphasis on tax cuts and $300 rebate checks is part of the BS that brought us to this point.
The Farley reconstruction is very inexpensive compared to MTA's Capital Plan. Calling it a boondoggle in New York implies a lack of perspective. In Peoria maybe. In Albany maybe. Not here.
The Farley reconstruction is very inexpensive compared to MTA's Capital Plan.
Maybe so, but it'll benefit far fewer people.
"Maybe so, but it'll benefit far fewer people."
You could say that about a lot of Long Island box stores which also end up wrecking the environment around them (making folly out of fraudulent "private investment" arguments.)
The benefits will ultimately more than pay for its costs.
A significant chunk of the funding for Penn-Farley comes from the federal government, earmarked specifically for this project. So it's not that we're paying the federal government outright, it's money that we (and everyone else in the U.S.) had already paid as federal taxes, got appropriated to this project, and is being used to pay the post office. I think. Whether this is the best possible use of those funds I don't know, but it wasn't some general pool of funds that could have been used for any project.
Federal taxes, state taxes. Whatever. It was still my money first and I expect to see it spent wisely.
CG
The main difference is the passenger count.
- The GCT renovation dollars provide esthetic benefits to a much greater number of people.
- The added income from stores for which they can now charge exorbitant rents because passengers find GCT a nice place to linger is much greater than it will be at Farley because there are more customers to patronize the stores.
- Also, the GCT renovations actually provided benefits of convenience, especially the passageways up to 48th St, which reduce the daily commute for thousands of commuters by 5 minutes. I would think of Farley as less of a boondoggle if someone could cite some concrete increase in convenience. I see inconvenience, in fact. Farley is much further from 7th Ave, and no closer to 8th, than the current Amtrak area.
"The main difference is the passenger count."
Not really. There's more than enough business at Penn so that creating a GCT or Union Station-like atmosphere there would pay off. And business is likely to increase.
- "The added income from stores for which they can now charge exorbitant rents because passengers find GCT a nice place to linger is much greater than it will be at Farley because there are more customers to patronize the stores."
GCT's renovation attracted business to the stores from the neighborhood which did not involve a train or subway ride. There's enough potential at Penn to achieve something similar.
"I would think of Farley as less of a boondoggle if someone could cite some concrete increase in convenience. I see inconvenience, in fact. Farley is much further from 7th Ave, and no closer to 8th, than the current Amtrak area. "
That's worth a look at a diagram.
There would be one important benefit: Customers coming out of the 7th Av IRT would not be fighting their way through Amtrak customers to get to their NJT trains.
The difference is, Metro-North handles something like 10 times as many passengers at GCT than Amtrak at NYP.
In fact, Amtrak's useage of Penn is dwarfed by either the LIRR or NJT's useage.
It'll sepperate the whole complex into yet another disjointed concourse and make connections even worse for Amtrak riders.
It will do zero to relieve capacity problems or other problems at track level.
It puts a semi pretty (if you like the olde train station look, I really don't) face on a service that may/may not even exist when it's finished anyway.
Of course, NY state will own it. Maybe they should rename the project "Albany / Renseseler South" ???
GCT was an overhaul to an existing, heavily used terminal that added value by turning the unused lower level into a useable space. What GCT didn't so, and still need, is an overhaul of the trainshed/physical plant on the other side of the wall. The trackage really should be re configured for faster / better service.
You're assuming that Penn/Farley's rebuild will not give LIRR and NJT customers access to the retail space. Do you know that for a fact from the design (I haven't seen it)?
You're also completely ignoring the fact that people have come to shop at GCT's spaces without need of a train. They just came to shop. It speaks well of GCT's redevelopment. Done properly, there's no question that the same thing would happen at Penn.
"The difference is, Metro-North handles something like 10 times as many passengers at GCT than Amtrak at NYP.
In fact, Amtrak's useage of Penn is dwarfed by either the LIRR or NJT's useage."
Misleading. There's a always a crowd waiting around Metroliner and Acela departures. Putting that crowd out of NJT's hair would be very helpful.
"It will do zero to relieve capacity problems or other problems at track level."
Not relevant to this discussion. You've included that sentence solely to obfuscate the issues.
The only thing which will solve track capacity problems is a new Hudson tube. Any other discussion is utter nonsense.
Right now the current Penn Station sits atop of all platforms. The new Penn Station will not. The current Penn Station is 1 block from PATH. The new Penn Station will be 2 blocks away. Right now Penn Station includes the 7th Avenue and 8th Avenue subways. The new Penn Station will include the 8th Avenue Subway andd the 9th Avenue Subway - er wait a minute. Is there a 9th Avenue Subway. Hmmmmmm - so the 8th Avenue subway will become even more crowded and the 7th Avenue subway will be less convenient. The new Penn Station will be nearly 2 blocks from the LIRR and NJT concourses. So explain something to me. Where does this plan benifit commuters????
Well, for what it's worth the boondoggles being built up here made a fast dash in and out of the train a time killer. Maybe Paturkey wants to show Bruno that he can have a BIGGER train station than a jerkwater upstate Senator. After all, we've got a booming economy and lots of bucks to blow. Ignore those folks whining, "Dude, where's my JOB?" ...
It is nice to see liberal Democrats and liberaler republicans working together to turn my tax dollars to shit. Gallisano is looking better and better. (Moinaghan peaked with benigh neglect)
I tell ya, I'm impressed. Rockefeller's kids are alive and well upstate, sorta the opposite of how it works downstate. And I hear the subway fares are going up too, which again proves that somehow we can afford all this pork ...
I would assume there will be connections between the "old (current) Penn Station and the "new" (Farley) Penn Station. It's just on the other side of 8th Ave.
I would assume so too, which proves my point. If you need to connect the new terminal to the old terminal because the old terminal is more geographically desirable, then why build the new terminal? Why not rebuild the old terminal and if you don't need the post office building - tear the damn thing down and put up a residential/office tower to revitalize the area. That would do a better job than a useless rail terminal.
The plans I have seen call for LIRR, NJT to use "Old Penn" and Amtrak to use "New Penn". Supposedly they will connect old and new Penn and extend platforms, although soem platforms seem like they'd be a terror to extend such as tracks 1-4.
The plans that I have seen - which may not be the most current ones - call for some platforms (those designated for Amtrak use) to be extended. None of the existing "pseudo-old Penn" will be eliminated, it's just additional space that is being added as "new Penn" for Amtrak. This will benefit commuters by reducing congestion in the existing NJT and LIRR areas.
Having Amtrak less convenient to the 7th Avenue line isn't much of an issue, since relatively few Amtrak riders take the subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Having Amtrak less convenient to the 7th Avenue line isn't much of an issue, since relatively few Amtrak riders take the subway.
Oh? Do you have a source for that claim?
What about those Amtrak riders who transfer to NJT, LIRR, PATH, and NYCT buses? Farley is farther from all of those except the M11 bus. Even cabs are harder to come by, since now they have to split into two lines for the two stations. And what about those Amtrak passengers who walk to their nearby destionations, most of which are east of 8th Avenue?
Now I'll ask about the remainder of the Amtrak ridership -- those for whom it doesn't matter where the station is. What do they gain? Yes, it looks nicer, but, as a transportation facility, how does it do a better job?
"What about those Amtrak riders who transfer to NJT, LIRR, PATH, and NYCT buses? Farley is farther from all of those except the M11 bus."
Not really. PATH is not an issue except for Amytrak passengers coming from the north. (If you're coming from the south, meaning NJ, and you need PATH, you're far better off using Newark Penn. Why go to NY Penn and have to exit to the street to walk a block?)
The Amtrak-LIRR-NJT transfers will not be that big a deal. Getting NJT commuter crowds out of the Metroliner/Acela passenger's face will enhance Acela and help both sides.
"The Amtrak-LIRR-NJT transfers will not be that big a deal. Getting NJT commuter crowds out of the Metroliner/Acela passenger's face will enhance Acela and help both sides. "
Ron, have you been to Penn Station recently? The NJT crowd is no longer in Amtrak's "face".
CG
"Ron, have you been to Penn Station recently? The NJT crowd is no longer in Amtrak's "face""
Ah! You got me there. I have not been to Penn since the NJT Concourse opened (which was very recent).
I will be in New York again shortly. I will make a point of observing the new concourse and the passenger flow around the Amtrak counters.
I still want you to look at the Farley plans before condemning them.
"I still want you to look at the Farley plans before condemning them."
To me, that's like asking someone to view the plans for a 100,000 seat NFL stadium in Horseheads, NY, before condemning the idea.
The Farley station will clearly be more inconvenient for both transfers to LIRR/NJT and to the 7th Avenue subway. I still don't see who it actually benefits, except politicians and the construction workers who build it.
I am very skeptical about the idea that the station can be a self supporting retail center. Amtrak has only 23,500 alightings and boardings per day at Penn Station -- by comparison, LIRR probably has that many boardings in a single hour during peak times.
The best comparison I see is Amtrak's 30th Street Station -- an Amtrak only station with very little in the way of commerce there other than some newsstands and snack bars. It's a nice station, but there's nothing about it that brings people into it. NY Penn has about twice as many passengers as 30th Street, and Farley has a similar surrounding neighborhood demographic.
When you do come to NYC, don't just check out the new NJT area. Go to the far west end concourse of the LIRR (not the passageway underneat Amtrak that connects all 21 tracks, the one further west -- you'll need to access the lower level mezzanine of the 8th Avenue subway station to get there) Take a look at how that corridor had to be sandwiched between street level, the 8th Avenue subway tracks and the Penn Station tracks. This is the level (2 flights below street level) at which any connection between the current Penn and Farley will need to be made. You can also descend to track level on tracks 13 and 14 to see how much of each platform extends west of 8th Avenue (the corridor is almost directly under 8th Ave.).
CG
"The Farley station will clearly be more inconvenient for both transfers to LIRR/NJT and to the 7th Avenue subway. "
Only to you. The rest of us aren't clairvoyant and can't evaluate a plan not in front of us. Is that how you think major decisions should be made?
Not only to me. As I read them, the general tone of responses seems to indicate that only you believe it may actually be an improvement.
One doesn't need to be clairvoyant to see that moving Amtrak further away from 7th Avenue and out of the building that houses NJT/LIRR will make transfers less convenient.
Come to New York, take a real live look at the location of the Farley building and the location of the LIRR, NJT and 7th Avenue subways. Then go underground to the platform levels at Penn and look at how the platforms, station and subway are all inter-twined. Then you too can realize that it just isn't feasible to have a passenger-friendly connection.
The question nobody can seem to answer about Farley is Why? The best answers so far seem to be:
1. Because we got cheated out of a good looking old rail station
2. Because it's there
3. Because Senator Moynihan wanted to have his name on something.
4. Because we want to provide construction jobs
5. Because somebody already appropriated some money so we'd better spend it
CG
In fairness to Ron (since it does seem to be 90% of us vs. him), MAYBE this will make transfers between Amtrak and LIRR or NJT SLIGHTLY more convenient. It' not clear from the published information.
Right now you have to come up to the upper concourse (1 level down), which usually takes a while because the whole train uses the same few escalators. Then NJT departures are right there, but for LIRR departures you have to go back down a level to find your train.
MAYBE they will allow you to optionally ascend just to the lower concourse and then post NJT and LIRR trains there.
Remember, the tracks will remain underneath both sides of 8th Ave just as they are now (at least, tracks 5 through 19 are on both sides of the avenue), so if they allow you to ascend at the east end you will be east of 8th Ave.
All of this is speculation, since the press releases don't go into this much detail. If you go to http://www.innovativefinance.org/projects/intermodal/farley_penn.asp, all they talk about is the new entrance hall between 8th and 9th Aves.
"In fairness to Ron (since it does seem to be 90% of us vs. him),..."
Hey, just when I was starting to have fun. It seems like I'm usually on the minority side of things here -- it was nice to be on the bully team for a change.
It's funny because I seem to be in the 10% minority on this also, but I do understand the views of the people against it also.
There are legitimate reasons to criticize it -but let's have all the facts out on the table first.
Looks like the state is trying to recoop its investment with using the air rights over the post office as an inducement for developers to build in the area.
Sounds real risky to me.
Is the preposed 7 line extention supposed to go to the foley post office site
Depends on who's talking this week. The 7 extension has been mentioned in print going down either Seventh Ave. (under the 1/2/3 tracks) or Eighth Ave (under the A/C/E) to 34th, and then turning west to the Javits Center area. Since the idea is to serve Penn Station, presumably, there would be a new station on 34th St., either between 7th and 8th Aves. or 8th and 9th Aves., depending on which of the above two options were used.
Because of all the subducting tunnel work that would be needed with either option between 41st and 34th Sts., and the complete rebuild of the Times Square No. 7 station that would also be needed if the Seventh Ave. option were used, I think the cheapest way to extend the Flushing Line would be to run it down Ninth Ave. and then across on 34th St. However, doing that would get you a new subway station no closer to the Farley Post Office than the current IRT Pennsylvania Station stop is, which is one of the complaints already being voiced on this thread about the new Amtrak location.
"Looks like the state is trying to recoop its investment with using the air rights over the post office as an inducement for developers to build in the area.
Sounds real risky to me."
It's a prime location which few developers would turn down. The risk that a developer would not be found who wants to develop over/next to Penn is near zero. However, you're righht in that we can't guarantee in advance the economic value of that investment.
Thanks for posting that. It added some facts to this thread, though not what everything we wanted.
Ummm, guys:
The whole Farley station thing is to provide Penn with a beautiful architectural building that it lost in the construction Of Madison Sq. Garden. Does it make the station "better"? Only aesthetically. Is it a waste of money? Probably. But, sometimes, things are built for their look. Kinda like the Art Deco skyscrapers New York is famous for. Was money wasted on the extra detail? Yup. But it gives the city character. So, you guys should just grin and bear it, and move on to the next topic: 'WTC intermodal center not convienient to Fulton Street subway station', or some such trash.
"Come to New York, take a real live look at the location of the Farley building and the location of the LIRR, NJT and 7th Avenue subways. Then go underground to the platform levels at Penn and look at how the platforms, station and subway are all inter-twined. Then you too can realize that it just isn't feasible to have a passenger-friendly connection."
I'm intimately familiar with all of the above, except that I want to take a look at the new NJT concourse, which is the one thing I haven't seen yet.
You're right - some of the other posts (not all, not even a majority) are as closed-minded as yours appeared to be.
Is there some reason you don't want to consult a diagram and comment on it - other than laziness? :0)
No, it's mainly just laziness. But if you insist -- and can show me one -- I'll comment on it.
CG
You're the one who levelled the criticism. All I'm asking you to do is back up what you say.
Rebuilding a historic place like that requires public notice, does it not? So there would be, by necessity, a plan filed in the public domain. Since the new entrance has been described, it's pretty clear an architect has drawn something that the builders are going to use.
I will look for something to post.
"Is there some reason you don't want to consult a diagram and comment on it"
Where is a diagram of the underground facilities? All I can find is pictures of the entrance hall, which is grand but not really relevant to the transportation benefits.
Well, the Post Office is a landmarked building, so I don;t feel tearing it down and replacing it with another non-descript office building is an option. Just what New York needs, another historic building torn down and a plain office-rresidential building put in it's place.
As for a "useless" rail terminal, I don't feel that is a reason not to go ahead with the project. With that kind of thinking, it can be said why is any great building built? If everything is "just functional" and not architectual pleasing, what a boring city any city would become. There is more to a building that just funcionality. That is the most important aspect, but thinking that way, why were Grand Central and the original Penn station built in the first place. They could have been built as a two story brick building, and would have served just fine functionally even in 1910. Sure the current Penn Station does serve it's purpose, but there is nothing there that is architectually pleasing or gives a sense of place. That is what they are trying to do with the Farley project. Not only are they preserving a historic building, they are allowing it to serve a purpose. I do understand your points completely, any you give some good reasons against the project, but I do feel there is more to a building or structure. I do understand both sides of the argument of building a new Penn Station or not. Of course the real mistake was tearing down the original Penn Station to begin with.
"If everything is "just functional" and not architectual pleasing, what a boring city any city would become. There is more to a building that just funcionality."
I don't agree with you in this case, but this is the best argument anyone has for the new station. The Farley station is a grand statement rather than anything with short term economic rewards.
"I would assume there will be connections between the "old (current) Penn Station and the "new" (Farley) Penn Station. It's just on the other side of 8th Ave."
This connection would have to be 2 levels down (the LIRR concourse level), since the 8th Ave subway is 1 level down. In fact, there already is a passageway under the subway at 33rd St, and when you are west of 8th Ave, 2 levels down, there is a small LIRR concourse.
"The current Penn Station is 1 block from PATH. The new Penn Station will be 2 blocks away. "
Not directly relevant in most cases. NJ Transit and LIRR customers will still be one block away from PATH. If you're on Amtrak coming in from the other side of the Hudson, you're not likely to need PATH. If you need to use PATH or HBLR, you can get off at Newark Penn Station, which has a direct ADA-compliant PATH transfer and a transfer to the Newark subway. You can ride PATH to WTC (when it reopens) or to HBLR services.
The only passengers who would really be inconvenienced a bit with regard to PATH are Amtrak passengers arriving from Boston or Rhode Island. Metro-North customers go to GCT, so this is not relevant to them.
With regard to the 7th Av IRT, you have a point. Should they add a moving walkway?
"Aside from alot of money changing hands - where's the benifit?"
Bingo. There is no benefit to the taxpayer or the Amtrak passenger. No benefit to the LIRR or NJT passenger, either. Probably a fair amount of disruption for NJT and Amtrak when the build new stairways.
Lots of construction jobs, though. So some politicians can say "I created jobs".
What a disgrace.
CG
So maybe we shouldn't have spent any moneyt redoing Grand Central. Maybe Amtrak shouldn't have spent any money redoing Union Station in Washington.
"There is no benefit to the taxpayer or the Amtrak passenger. No benefit to the LIRR or NJT passenger, either."
Please find the new design for Farley, and explain what part of this is a waste, and why. Since Amtrak is perennially in the hole (and always will be), there's absolutely no point in delaying a desirable project. And explain why Union Station in Washington is a boondoggle.
Union Station circa 1969 -- with the big Bicentennial hole in the middle of the outer waiting room -- was an epic boodoggle, creating a huge unused space and generating no new buisness for the area. The rebuilding of the facility 15 years ago into a major part of the Capitol Hill area that is used by people even when they're not getting on an Amtrak or MARTA train definitely was not a boondoggle.
If and when the new Farley train station is built (sorry about the typo in the thread head -- I was typing fast during a very late lunch) the designers will have to use the new Union Station facility as a textbook, which means creating commercial businesses inside the station such as stores and restaurants that can attract customers from people who are going to Madison Square Garden, work in the area or live in the Penn South neighborhood.
That also means they have to figure out what to do with the current Amtrak concourse and the new New Jersey Transit concourse that is being built, and intergrate them into some sort of underground complex that doesn't become even less inviting than the Penn Station concourse is right now (and AFAIK, no one yet has said what will become of the area between the new NJT facility and the new Foley passenger entrances to the lowered numbered tracks. In fact, the real boondoggle may be in building a new facility for NJT at all right now, since the Amtrak waiting area will become available once its operations are moved across the street. Just suspend the NJT work, save about $100 million on that, and do the switchover when Amtrak gets its new building down the road).
But, if I recall correctly, the NJT concourse is already open. Is there a lot more left to do?
My typing is as bad as yours, even worse.
Easy tiger. Nobody said anything about Union Station or GCT.
Every design plan for Farley has left NJT and LIRR where they are in Penn Station. Hence, no benefit to these passengers. NJT passengers can expect some degree of disruption when construction occurs on their platforms.
One doesn't need a design plan to explain why this is a waste, only a modicum of common sense. Amtrak has a perfectly well functioning station now -- with enclosed connections to both the 7th and 8th avenue subways. Granted, it is hideously ugly but it serves its purpose well. Any crowding issues on the Amtrak level have been alleviated with the opening of the new NJT concourse.
Farley will give Amtrak a grand stage, but be more inconvenient. No enclosed connection to the 7th Avenue Subway -- even with significant subterranean digging it will still be over an avenue away.
Since you're in such a mood to throw out challenges, let me throw one your way. Explain why Farley is "desirable".
CG
"Easy tiger. Nobody said anything about Union Station or GCT."
Maybe you should (but other posters have).
"Every design plan for Farley has left NJT and LIRR where they are in Penn Station. Hence, no benefit to these passengers"
Non sequiter. So long as there is sufficient physical communication between these areas, there is benefit to everyone. That's why you need to consult a diagram.
"One doesn't need a design plan to explain why this is a waste, only a modicum of common sense."
False statement, as I have just proven. It may be a waste, but you need to show why. Your "common sense" hasn't communicated that you understand what the reconstruction will actually do. You cannot post reasonably and intelligently about something you don't know. Find out, and then criticize to your heart's content.
"Amtrak has a perfectly well functioning station now -- with enclosed connections to both the 7th and 8th avenue subways. Granted, it is hideously ugly but it serves its purpose well."
Well enough, I suppose. It could use additional improvements.
"Any crowding issues on the Amtrak level have been alleviated with the opening of the new NJT concourse."
It has?
"Farley will give Amtrak a grand stage, but be more inconvenient. No enclosed connection to the 7th Avenue Subway -- even with significant subterranean digging it will still be over an avenue away."
Consult the plans, if available. If they back up that statement you just made, then I would agree the deficiency with regard to the IRT is something they should have considered.
Why is Farley desirable?
By definition, Penn Station is NYC's major intercity rail connection and its major link to NJ and all points south (and north - you can't get to New Haven in a hurry from GCT and you can't get to Boston from GCT unless you transfer). It gets plenty of passenger traffic, more than enough to justify a facelift. Plus, being under and adjacent to Madison Square Garden, which offers an additional plus if you create a major retail center there.
So turning the station into a "destination" makes sense.
It is a desirable project from that point of view. It doesn't mean that it is the most important one. If I were in charge of the world (heaven forbid) I would have NJT, Amtrak and MTA build two additional tracks into Penn from NJ and make that priority 1 over anything else along the NE Corridor in the NY-NJ area.
But we live in a political world, and there are competing constituencies. Since too many people want this, I'm content to support it because it is a good idea. It's not my #1 preferred priority, but it's certainly good enough.
Amtrak has a highly dysfunctional Penn Station now. Limited entrances to the platforms means that you can't (or don't want to, if at all possible) allow passengers on and off a platform at the same time, which is a real limitation when you consider that many Amtrak trains are thru trains and most platforms serve two tracks. The more entrances to the platforms, the better.
The plans for Farley assumed that many Amtrak passengers, particularly those with luggage or on expense accounts (i.e., Acela Express passengers), would want to arrive by taxi to the Farley building, although passengers would still have the choice of boarding from the existing Amtrak concourse. This means more entrances, which is a very good thing. It also provides for a new waiting area, a new retail concourse, and open-air sightlines from several floors above ground level directly to the platforms (which is not a necessary functional feature but nice nonetheless). And, it provides for airline check-in facilities for JFK and EWR-bound airline passengers, although whether that's still possible in the post 9/11 world is an open question.
Also, an enclosed connection to 7th Avenue is planned, not sure if it will use the LIRR West End concourse and that passageway under 8th Avenue or some new passageway. Of course, it will be a longer walk, but you could always board from the old concourse if it's more convenient.
Is this worth the $$? Not sure, but there are some benefits beyond just looking nice.
"And, it provides for airline check-in facilities for JFK and EWR-bound airline passengers, although whether that's still possible in the post 9/11 world is an open question."
When people finally come back to their senses they'll see that off-site bagggage check realy isn't a problem, and o-site baggage check doesn't address any problems.
Montreal's central rail station would be a good starting point for a design. Lots of shops and a safe pleasant, environment.
The Foley P.O. was named after Matt Foley, a motivational speaker who lived in a van down by the river :)
"The Foley P.O. was named after Matt Foley, a motivational speaker who lived in a van down by the river :) "
I was thinking of having him come by to talk to my kids. They've been struggling in school lately.
CG
Discipline, discipline!
There is no parity between the Penn Station and GCT projects. Grand Central was not moved to make it less convenient - the new Penn Station will be. The MTA has plans to expand the usage of grand Central Station with the east side access project. Penn Station will get no such increased usage.
But let's assume that the GCT project was a waste of time. How does that mitigate throwing away nearly $300 million on another foolish project?
The MTA has plans to expand the usage of grand Central Station with the east side access project. Penn Station will get no such increased usage.
You make some valid points, but the "increased" usage at Grand Central will mean less LIRR trains to Penn. But this will coincide with "increased" usage to Penn with new Metro North Service to PEnn station, and less to Grand Central. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this increased service to GC more like a trade between Metro North and the LIRR between GC and Penn?
My understanding is that the MN service into penn Station will represent an increase in overall MN service on the New Haven lines. The demand is there and the project is supposed to include 2 or 3 new stations in the bronx into Penn Station.
BTW- The post Office Building is the James A. Farley Building- not Foley.
"My understanding is that the MN service into penn Station will represent an increase in overall MN service on the New Haven lines. The demand is there and the project is supposed to include 2 or 3 new stations in the bronx into Penn Station."
I'm looking forward to that. A much needed service for New York.
"You make some valid points, but the "increased" usage at Grand Central will mean less LIRR trains to Penn"
Yes and no. Even while reducing bottlenecks if front of East River tunnels (a great thing!), it means more slots will open up for Penn-bound services - meaning total LIRR services can increase, including new service to GCT (but hopefully they'll keep the total number of trains in line with the intent of not having trains waiting for clearance into the tubes).
>>>...throwing away nearly $300 million on another foolish project? <<<
I agree that the project is useless and another monumental waste of money, but I was under the impression that, when completed, it will be more like $750,000,000 thrown away.
Peace,
ANDEE
You may be correct. I don't know what the bottom line will be. I was only referring to the cost of the initial purchase of the post ofice building.
A few years ago Moynihan and others were quoting numbers in the $300 million range.
Now the numbers are in the $750 million range.
It's the Farley Building, not Foley. And yes, part of it was a WPA shot in the arm during the depression.
Sorry about the error. As I said in the other thread, I was typing in a hurry during a very late lunch and got FDR's Postmaster General's name mixed up with the downtown Federal Court area (and, hey, the buildings kinda look alike...)
Don't worry about it. Try counting the typos in my posts (on second thought, don't. You'll lose count very quickly. We'll just agree on "a lot.")
When Amtrak moves across the street to the Farley Post Office they will free up lots of room at the current location. This space would be wisely renovated for expanded retail areas, expansion of NJ Transit's new concourse. And as the new Metro North Concourse when trains from New Haven and Poughkeepsie (sp?) call there.
GCT will be getting yet another concourse, beginning in a few years: the LIRR. Digging the rest of the tunnel into GCT while Sunnyside Yard's tunnels are built is scheduled as a 37 month contract (already underway). That puts us at late 2005.
Iposted too soon. Meaning that the new station will have to get started in construction as the tunnel is done.
LIRR to GCT is scheduled for completion in 2011.
CG
Very true.
Didn't you want to critique the Farley plans, now that they have been posted? You asked me to remind you.
See post 395999.
CG
I was going to ask what they were going to do with the current Amtrak concourse when Amtrak moves across the street. But you sort of answered it. But I really wonder why they spent all this money on the new NY Transit concourse. I always thought that when Amtrak moved into the Farley building, NJ Transit would renovate the old Amtrak Concourse (which I guess is the original location of the Pennsylvania RR glass concourse and take over that. I didn't even realize NJ Transit was building a whole new councourse for themselves.
I still question what will become of the Amtrak concourse. If Metro North moves into Penn station, when some of the LIRR trains go to Grand Central, and Metro North would potentially take over part of the Amtrak concourse, the extra capacity at Penn will be at the old LIRR tracks, which are the higher numbered tracks, not the lower number tracks that are fed from the current Amtrak concourse.
Also the Subway is already there, last Saturday I took the E train to Penn and when I exited I realised I was on the other side of 8th ave from Penn right next to the Farley Post office steps.
Add a possible #7 train station at the Farley station, and a possible Jets/Olympic stadium down the street and the Farley shows some huge potential.
I do agree the platforms need to be extended, as well as the new Hudson tunnels.
If they replace Madison Square Garden, there was talk of putting up a new office building at the site, but if the space is free, they could put the new Penn Sta. back where it was.
Now that would be the ultimate perfection in a perfect world with unlimitted funds. I wish that would happen, but of course it's probably just a dream - to many more people than just railfans too. Architects, historians, and even just regular people. Penn Station wasn't just a loss to railfans. It was a loss to New York as a whole.
"If they replace Madison Square Garden, there was talk of putting up a new office building at the site, but if the space is free, they could put the new Penn Sta. back where it was."
The air rights to Penn Station are no longer the property of public agencies (whether Amtrak or MTA). Those rights would have to be repurchased for 100s of millions of dollars.
Well, trade it for the space inside the post office.
Or make Amtrak (or its successor) private, and merge it with the company that owns MSG.
You want Cablevision running the nation's rail passenger system?
In the old Penn Station, near the west gates, I recall looking down towards a conveyor belt bringing newspapers or mail sacks to RPO cars. Yet, my memory is not trustworthy. Both the Pennsy and the LIRR carried mail, and I think the RPO was usually on the front of the train. Yet, the GPO was built for direct loading, so there had to be some way for the mail to come down from the GPO and move east. If I ride the front car of a 12-car LIRR train into Penn in the morning rush hour, we sometimes reach three car lengths or so west of the Eighth Avenue subway (which was inserted sometime after the GPO was built and before the GPO was enlarged). From what I see, it seems to me that Amtrak's new terminal could feed passengers to some platforms, but not too many, as there are switches in the way. Does anybody know which tracks would be accessible from an Amtrak station inside Farley? Thanks.
It wouldn't suprise me if part of the redeisgining of the Farley building for Amtrak service involves widening the south side of the track level tunnel to allow for the extension of the platforms for tracks 1-12 west by pushing tracks 1-4 towards the south. If not, there will be only a few tracks that can platform directly underneath the building and most trains will have stairways at the absolute front or rear of the trains, depending on whether they're headed towards Washington or Boston.
Since the MTA was able to keep the E/F/G/R trains running while the tunnel between 36th and Queens Plaza was widened on the northwest side to create space for the new 63rd St. tunnel portal, widening the tunnel at Penn Station to allow for westward extensions of the platforms doesn't seem like in insurmountable hurdle.
On this day in 1957, Walter O'Malley, using VP Red Patterson as his sounding board, announced that the Brooklyn Dodgers were moving to Los Angeles in 1958. It ranks as about the saddest day in Brooklyn's history, and though I celebrated when I heard that evening by the middle of the '58 season I had turned completely against the LA version, playing in the montrosity known as the Coliseum so the Big OOOOMMMMMMMM could rake in the dough. The team was crappy that year finishing seventh.
But isn't it true that attendance at Brooklyn Dodger games declined throughout the 1950s? Old Brooklynites still hurl curses at O'Malley but taking the team to L.A. was the smart thing to do from a business perspective. I know that NYC made all kinds of offers to get O'Malley to stay in Brooklyn or even Queens but he was going Los Angeles anyway.
I agree that Ebbets field had to go by 1957, but did he have to take the team all the way to California? Couldn't a new Brooklyn stadium, perhaps even Shea Stadium (not in Flushing, of course)kept the Dodgers here? Or the Giants? Did we need 3 teams?
I'm not familiar with the dynamics of the O'Mally/NYC relationship by 1957.
Chris, forget the Giants. They had no future in New York. Once the number one team in the city, they had become the far behind number three team in town, and couldn't even command a majority of fans in their home borough of Manhattan. Northern Manhattan was now Yankee country and Harlem had always been Dodger territory. In a poll taken in the middle ofthe 1956 season, the Dodgers were found to be the most popular team in southern Manhattan. The Giants had to go.
We will never know whether O'Malley would have stayed if he had gotten the land at Atlantic and Flatbush for his new stadium. I really believe he would have stayed if he had gotten it since he was a dyed-in-the-wool New Yorker. But when the study could come with only $25,000 in July of 1956 O'Malley saw the handwriting on the wall. I know he wouldn't go for the new stadium in Queens because he couldn't call his team the Brooklyn Dodgers if they played there.
But now in 2002 who in New York really cares? I don't think there are any Dodgers fans left there. Their link to New York has rusted.
The problem with the move was that O'Malley needed another team to go west with him, or thje Dodgers would have been isolated, 1,900 miles from the next closest National League team (St. Louis). So he had to convince another owner to move out to the West Coast with him and found a willing, if more reluctant partner in Horace Stoneham, who as Fred said was dying in the Polo Grounds, with just over 600,000 in attendance in 1957.
Combine that with the decision by Major League Baseball owners that the world would be a better place if only one team operated in each market, and the increasing use of airplanes for cross country travel (DC-3s in the mid 1950s, but the 707 would debut in commercial service the same year the Dodgers debuted in L.A.), and you had the set-up for the most shameful move of a professional sports team in history, with only Art Modell's move of the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore even coming close in weasleyness (if that wasn't a word before, it is now).
O'Malley did get screwed by Robert Moses on his Flatbush-Atlantic ballpark, and Stoneham was in a position where the only thing that could have saved him was a move to the suburbs -- most likely New Jersey -- by 1957, which would have been considered a humiliating retreat out of New York at the time. But the way the deal was worked out in tandem by the two owners, it's clear that the process of fining a new home on Walter's part was in its intitial steps even as the Dodgers were in the 1956 World Series.
He may not have been settled on Los Angeles as his future home by then, but he already was moving some games to Jersey City in 1957 as a way of telling New York he wouldn't put another dime into upgrading Ebbets Field, which in 1957 was one year younger than Fenway Park (still going for now), Tiger Stadium (gone just two years ago), and only one year older than Wrigley Field (still going).
Of course, O'Malley's main concern was the neighborhood and who was moving into it (i.e. minorities) more than the state of the ballpark -- Ebbets lasted only 44 years and Dodger Stadium right now is 40 years old. He saw the Ebbets neighborhood as turning into something similar to the situation Stoneham was in at the Polo Grounds, and being a far better money man than Horace, wanted no part of losing "the right" customers for his team (a tactic Steinbrenner used in recent years to try and get his Javits Center-area ballpark, a tactic which kind of fell apart when the Yankees started drawing 3 million plus a year).
Ebbets had much better subway connections to the rest of the city than the Polo Grounds did, and probably would have never suffered the attendance plunge the Giants did in the mid-50s (though Walter would have been in his rights to demand some additional parking space near the field for Dodger fans who had moved to Long Island or other suburban areas). Still, when you look at Dodger Stadium, you can see O'Malley got what he wanted -- a stadium on a hill with a huge parking lot, with him in control of the entire surrounding area, so that no neighborhood could ever creep up and bite him in the arse again, the way the Rams and Raiders later claimed the neighborhood around Los Angeles' Olympic Stadium did in the 1970s and 1980s.
Great post J. I can tell you are a real baseball fan. What is your favorite team? Do you even remember the NY Giants and Bklyn Dodgers? Then you'd be near my age.
My parents were friends with Horace Stoneham's son, Charles, so they were New York Giants fans (and I actually got to "see" a Giants game in September, 1957 at the ripe old age of five months. Don't remember the details for some reason...), and when my dad was working for the Herald Tribune he actually got to write the original story on O'Malley's downtown Brooklyn domed stadium plan.
When I was old enough to actually root for a team -- and I know this is going to hurt you -- I picked the Yankees, in part because they had the cooler looking stadium right next to an el line (also the reason I liked the Giants over the Jets. The railfan in me was already coming out at age five). I'd be more heartbroken about the Angels' crushing the Yanks' staff last week if I didn't see the problem coming from a month off, and unlike my feelings for the Dodgers, I have no deep-seeded hatred for the Angels because they abandoned New York 45 years ago (the Giants I'm more sympathetic to, since their attendance in the 50s was in the dumpster and the idea of building stadiums in the suburbs was still 15 years off. So Stoneham really only had a move out of the area option, unless he wanted to move to Jersey City or Newark, which as I said, would have been a major embarassment for him).
If truth be told, there was one other factor in the rape of Brooklyn perpetrated by that piece of shit O'Malley.
That was television.
In the 1950's, all 3 New York teams televised all of their home games, Brooklyn games being on WOR channel 9 and Yankee and Giant games on Channel 11 WPIX. The Dodgers gradually began televising more and more road games so by 1956, something like 50 road games were on channel 9. Since all 11 road games at th Polo Grouonds were on channel 11, essentially 140 Dodger games were available on free television. The Giants never televised road games (except the 11 games in Brooklyn on channel 9) while the Yankees were able to televise a few road games but not many (because of the conflict on channel 11)
The piece of shit O'Malley was in a bind as he saw it. Channel 9 was paying lots and lots of money to televise the games; one of the reasons the Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in baseball, but he felt the presence of the televised games was keeping people from the ball park. So he became very interested in pay television. And of course since he saw no way out of televising the games in Brooklyn, when he took his toy to LA, he televised nothing on free television thinking the arrival of pay television was imminent.
What is shocking to note is that both of the local teams in New York gradually stopped televising their games on free television and today only about 50 Met games and 20 Yankee games are on free television; the rest being on cable television which is pay television by another name. Of course this is a crime as there are still people out there who can't afford cable television but then again when are the interests of the fans important in 2002?
Even more shocking is that 3,000,000 households in the New York area have no access to the Yankee games on cable (pay) television. That is because in order to make more money, the Yankees took their games off of Cablevision owned MSG network and started their own network (YES). The Yankees insist that YES must be on basic cable; Cablevision doesn't believe in basic cable. You pay for every service you want with the garbage owning Cablevision. Cablevision offered to carry YES on its own channel and allow YES to set its own price and keep all of the revenue but YES has refused this obviously fair offer as they think everybody on the Cablevision system should subsidize their operations. So making the games available to the fans isn't important to the Yankees and therefore there was no baseball season to many of the poor people of the Bronx and Brooklyn who have the misfortune to be in an area where Cablevision has the franchise.
Boy were things better in 1956.
O'Malley was paranoid about home TV games after he moved to Los Angeles, and the Dodgers in the 1960s and 70s always had one of the smallest schedules of home games of any major market team (given the distances in the L.A. metro area some people had to travel to Dodger games, he may have been correct in thinking TV would cut down on attendance by people in the deep suburbs and exurbs). Of course, the Mets (on Ch. 9) and the Cubs (on Chicago's Ch. 9) would prove later that TV didn't necessarily cut into home attendance, and pay cable really wasn't workable in any major way until the 1980s, while the New York area wasn't fully wired until about the same time, which probably delayed it's implementation by about 25 years.
Yea, It's the Yankees fault we had no Yankees games in the Bronx, Brooklyn and other places. It's amazing that the Yankees games on MSG (prior to 2002) were on BASIC CABLE when the whore's at Cablevision owned the rights. AND they still show the Mets on BASIC CABLE in the Bronx (at least, I'm only familiar with the set up there). So don't please don't try to say this whole mess was the due to Yankee greed. I'm not calling the Yankee management saints (I'm a Yankee's fan), but I do feel more of the blame goes to cablevison than to the Yankees. If say that "everyone" should not have to subsidize the Yankees being on basic, fine, just don't make me pay for MTV, E!, USA etc. But the silver lining is that I got feed up in mid August and got a DirecTV dish, I got the Yankees on basic, I get all the NFL games (I can finally watch my Redskins every week) and more channels than I even knew existed for about what I paid for Cablevision basic. They called me up to ask why I canceled and I told them I canceled due to not having Yankee games, they then asked that "Oh so when we get the Yankees, you'll come back?" I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do remember that MTV, E and whatever do not want $1.85 a subscriber. All corners of the industry agree the price is triple what it is worth; more so now. Look at what programming is being offered on YES now that the Yankee season is over and tell me it is worth $1.85 a month' the same price ESPN charges. I know that in a couple of weeks they'll have three Net games a week but what else. All they do is run the same garbage over and over again.
Look, I am not a person who thinks Cablevision are a bunch of angels. As a matter of fact, the poor people such as myself who are unfortunate enough to be in a franchise area of cablevision in NYC, do not get, believe it or not, MSNBC, FX, Fox News Channel, CMT, Headline News all channels that are a normal part of cable systems. Instead we get BET, BET2, MTV, MTV2. We do not get the Golf Channel, Court TV on a full time basis, Travel channel. Instead they give us Playboy channel, several porn pay perview channels. Call them up and you get the message that this is based on customer surveys and the fact that they have so many must carry stations. When you tell them Time Warner which covers the other part of Brooklyn and has the same must carry has the stations noted above, they have no answer.
But having said all that, ultimately YES' most important responsibility is to make the games available. Their attitude about that starts with only putting 20 games on free television. After all, there are still many people who cannot afford even basic Cable or live in places where cable (and dish) are not available. Then when it is obvious Cablevision will not yield, they should have taken Cablevision's offer to give them a channel on their system and charge whatever they want and keep all the revenue. How could this offer not be fair? Why should people who don't give a damn about the Yankees subsidize those who do to the tune of almost $2/month? And then, rather than take this eminently fair offer, YES goes out and puts on ads asking fans how dare Cablevision charge for seeing the Yankees?? Come on give me a break.
It is very simple, if YES cared about the fans, which is what they claim, the games would be on cablevision. Industry observers all state that cablevision is basically in the right on this one. Of course, I understand that part of the problem is Cablevision resents YES taking the game off MSG but if we take that out of the equation, basically (no pun intended) Cablevision is far less wrong, in this instance, than is YES.
I know Cablevision's top rate customer service first hand, I had them myself prior to getting my dish.
The problems with the "fair" offer from Cablevision are several:
1) Knowing Cablevision (as you said many "normal" basic cable channels are either not on Cablevision or on part time), I figure the channel they "give" to the Yankees would be something like Channel 73 1/2 and they would share it with the Yak Channel "all Yaks, all the time" or some such nonsense to hinder the YES network.
2) YES's contracts with all the other systems had a "me too" clause. If Cablevision got a better deal then the other systems got, YES had to re-do the deals with all the other systems in the Cablevision mode.
3) I'd buy the seperate pay channel for the Yankees if all sports programing was treated the same. The Mets are still on basic as are the Knicks and Rangers. Cablevision is a monopoly, they have some obligation to offer access to competitores (as Verizon must allow other companies access the local network and AT A FAIR PRICE). Now hard core fans will pay what they have to watch their team (and I would have paid up to $20 per month to get the Yankees), but a big piece of the auidience are casual fans. Now a casual fan who has basic will in most cases choose to watch the Mets on his basic package rather than pay the extra vig to watch the Yankees. That would cost the Yankees in the advertising market. And Cablevision is saying to all the other sports teams in the NY market that they had better accept whatever deal Cablevision was offering them rather than consider an offer from YES or anyother potential competitor.
I agree that the price asked by the Yankees is high, but just about every other cable system in the NY area agreed to it, that says that while high, it not insanely high. I'm sure that had Cablevision negotiated in good faith, YES would have come down on the price. And I also agree that by taking games off free TV is a very bad trend, many cannot afford any cable and really enjoy the baseball games. I know this is true about a good number of elderly and sick people. This is another area where I think you can find fault with Cablevision, they were running ads that were very misleading about how many Yankee games they offered (or the method of how they were being offered). Cablevision said that "over 50 Yankees games will be carried by Cablevision". Yea, Ok.... but they are only being carried by Cablevision because Channel 2 was offering 20 on free TV, Fox network (Ch 5) was carring another 12 or so on "game of the week" and ESPN had the rest on Primetime games. They were implying that they really hadn't dropped Yankee coverage (no, only 110 of 162) because of these games they were still carrying. The fact was they were carrying these games by default, had ESPN or Fox dropped some Yankee games, they would be down to a few over 20 on Channel 2 and again those were due to no effort of Cablevision.
Of course this is a crime as there are still people out there who can't afford cable television but then again when are the interests of the fans important in 2002?
Why do you feel entitled to watching professional sports as if it was a public service?*
Sports teams are a business, Steingrabber feels that he will make more money televising on cable than on broadcast, and his primary objective is to make money. His secondary objective is the glorification of his massive ego, but since it's his toy, he gets to do with it as he pleases. Don't like it? Buy the team.
*Now since the stadiums are government funded in a corporate welfare scheme (yeah sure, they pay "rent"), maybe they are entitled to do something for the citizens of New York. If they do something for the common people it should be BUILD THEIR OWN STADIUMS.
That and they should stop overruning their timeslot and pre-empting TV shows. In that regard, having their own channel is a blessing.
You're about my age if you were five months old at some point in 1957.
It's so ironic people despised minorities so much, but then ended up revolving their whole lives around them (where they moved to, etc.)
Actually, the DC-3 had been surpassed in the 1950s by four-engine prop planes, notably the DC-4, -6, and 7 from Douglas and the Constellation from Lockheed. Boeing jumped ahead of both companies with the 707 jet near the end of the decade.
I would agree that air travel, along with television - as discussed elsewhere in this thread - is one of the factors that changed pro sports from a small-scale, regional enterprise to a component of the huge media/entertainment complex that we know today. Until the 50s, major league baseball was confined to the distance of an overnight train trip: no further west than St. Louis and Chicago, no further south than Washington and Cincinnati.
Ebbets Field by 1956 was a dump. It was neglected during the war, had AWFUL parking facilities (as the car was becoming more prominent and most of the Dodgers fan base moved to the suburbs) and was too small to accomodate the kinds of crowds then thought to be reasonable for a modern ballpark (50,000+). I don't buy the "bad neighborhood" argument, since the neighborhood around Yankee Stadium was roughly equivelent to that around Ebbets Field, and was in a similar state of decline at the time the Dodgers left.
It's obvious their was a market for another team to succeed in New York besides the Yankees, given the Mets immediate success. What I can't understand is why the city went so far to acquire an NL expansion team in 1960, yet did nothing to stop their already established NL teams from fleeing to California.
O'Malley's demand for a bigger stadium was born in part due to the arrival of the first of the "new" stadiums with the franchise moves of the Boston Braves to Milwaukee, the Phialdelphia A's to Kansas City and the St. Louis Browns to Baltimore, along with the fact that the Yankees were always drawing 25,000 more people to their stadium for all those 1940s-50s subway series games than the Dodgers could. But in terms of sheer numbers, Ebbets' capacity was in the same ballpark (so to speak) as Fenway and Wrigley, both of which exist today.
The Dodgers could have survived in a stadium at that capacity, the same way the other two franchises have, but they couldn't have made as much money. Stadium capacity was to the 1950s what cable TV rights fee deals are today -- the main source of teams' income. O'Malley lusted after that, and wanted a larger capacity stadium to reach that goal (during a period when the major league baseball reserve clause held down his expences). At the same time, he didn't want to fight the battle to get a new stadium or put the money into refurbishing Ebbets Field while his neighborhood changed to resemble the one around Coogan's Bluff, so he took the Los Angeles offer, got Stoneham to go to San Fran, and got his bigger stadium that way.
Meanwhile, the neighborhood around Yankee Stadium in the 1950s and the early 1960s, esepcially going up towards the Grand Concourse, was still predominantly Jewish (I visited family there in the early 60s so this is first-hand experience talking), but in transition. The changeover really hit by the late 60s, when O'Malley was already celebrating a decade on the West Coast.
Meanwhile, the neighborhood around Yankee Stadium in the 1950s and the early 1960s, esepcially going up towards the Grand Concourse, was still predominantly Jewish (I visited family there in the early 60s so this is first-hand experience talking), but in transition. The changeover really hit by the late 60s, when O'Malley was already celebrating a decade on the West Coast.
The area around Ebbets was similarly white ethnic/working class in the mid-50's. My father lived off of Empire Blvd. until 1960. He practically lived at Ebbets, are all my points about the stadium and neighborhood was based on what he experienced, then shared with me.
The difference was the growing low-income area of Bedford-Stuyvesant had O'Malley nervous, since there was no natural boundary between it and the area near Flatbush, and he could see the demographics of the Ebbets Field crowds changing every year as the result of the Dodgers' proximity to the neighborhood (darn that Jackie Robinson...)
The Yankees saw the Harlem River as the barrier between themselves and the Giants' neighborhood problem in Manhattan, and saw the business/commerical area around the Bronx County Courthouse and the families along the Grand Concourse as a stabilizing factor to the east. As their neighborhood began to turn, the first reaction was to put a lot of white paint on the stadium to spruce it up a little, and then by the early 1970s, when the problem was in full bloom, that's when they got the city to redo the stadium and add the parking garages, so their surburban fans wouldn't have to brave the subway or the neighborhood (and the Yankees' fan base was very white compaired with the Dodgers in the 50s or the Mets of the 60s and early 70s -- a situation that didn't change until the "Bronx Zoo" run of trips to the series between 1976 and 1981)
"It's obvious their was a market for another team to succeed in New York besides the Yankees, given the Mets immediate success. What I can't understand is why the city went so far to acquire an NL expansion team in 1960, yet did nothing to stop their already established NL teams from fleeing to California."
You haven't read through the threads but at the request of some anonymous person who e-mailed me, I will keep the obscenities out of it.
The City of New York had no chance to keep its NL franchises. There was no fan support for the Giants. They were going to move to Minneapolis until the O'Malley thing (not the usual obscenity I use when referring to this half human) talked him into going to San Francisco so there would be 2 teams on the Left Coast.
As far as the Brooklyn franchise, the O'Malley thing had made an agreement to move his franchise by the time he made an "offer" probably for the sake of history and judging by reading the posts here, many have bought into this re-arrangement of history.
The O'Malley thng wanted the City of New York to give to him the land on top of the LIRR terminal at Atlantic and Flatbush Avenue and there he would build his domed stadium. As a gentleman who wrote a book about the removal of the Brooklyn franchise wrote, this according to the laws of New York would have been illegal as this land did not beling to the City of New York, it belonged to the Pennsylvania RailRoad, then a private corporation. Even if laws could have been passed at this point to legalize this, it is clear the PRR would have sued and tied the matter up in court for years.
At this point, enters Robert Moses who felt the only available place for a Stadium was Flushing Meadow Park, the location of Shea Stadium. The O'Malley thing would have none of it; after all if he moved his franchise to Queens they could not be called the Brooklyn Dodgers (of course, if he moved to LA, he couldn't call the team the Brooklyn Dodgers either, now could he?) In short, O'Malley was gone..he had been offered the Chavez Ravine location. It didn't matter that poor people who had occupied that land for years were kicked out of their homes. This land belonged to the City of Los Angeles and the problems referred to regarding the Brooklyn location were simply not applicable there.
In the last few years, the myth has grown that O'Malley wanted a ball park, that Robert Moses said you will play where I tell you to play and that because of that the O'Malley thing was justified in moving the franchise. Nothing could be further from the truth. Robert Moses had a small role but no effort was made to explore other possibilities. Not that there were any other possibilities; although just think of how wonderful it would be if the current location of Keyspan Park looking out over the ocean with the parachute jump behind the right field wall would be today! And just think of the wonderful rapid transit service with 4 subway lines just a block away (of course that was before the project started).
I bring this matter up because it is important for the people of the City of New York to understand the contempt the O'Malley thing and the rest of major league baseball had for them; even though this all took place 45 years ago. Somebody should have been able to stop this. Or at least the O'Malley thing should have been allowed to take his franchise to LA but forced to leave the name Dodgers in Brooklyn where it belonged so that in 1962 when the National League came to its senses and expanded back to NY, the new team would have become the Brooklyn Dodgers just like the Cleveland Brown named was left by Art Modell when he moved to Baltimore.
But this contempt of the franchise for the fans of the Brooklyn Dodgers has not stopped as witness the recent (in the last 5 or 6 years ago) the fiasco of a bar in Brooklyn having the audacity to call itself the Brooklyn Dodger and this franchise having the unmitigated gall to take them to court for trademark violation. Like the current franchise playing in Los Angeles has any right to the name Brooklyn Dodgers.
No matter what anybody else says, this is what happened. And to whomever doesn't like using obscenities to describe the O'Malley thing, there is not a single obscenity in this post.
There have been all sorts of ideas floating around as to when Walter O'Malley first decided to look West, and since his son Peter never has divulged the actual when, or if he knows he's keeping it to himself, I think I have as good an idea as anyone.
In August of 1955, O'Malley dropped a bombshell when he announced that his team would play seven games in the 1956 season in anti-Dodger and pro-Giant Jersey City. He warned that New York could become a one team city since the Giants were looking at Minneapolis.
The city by this time didn't give a shit about the Giants and made what they thought was a mad scramble to keep the Dodgers and decided to have a big study make. On July 25, 1956, this study could come up with only $25,000 for a study----which meant no study at all. I think that is the date when O'Malley first turned his eyes to the West Coast. When the '56 Series was held LA Councilman Kenneth Hahn attended a game at Ebbets Field hoping to talk to the owners of various teams and try to entice them to move their clubs to LA. I believe it was then that O'Malley decided to get the wheels rolling for the eventual shift of the Dodgers to the West Coast.
As far as attendance, they barely drew a million in 1955, but drew over 1.2 million in '56, plus the fact that they were the biggest TV draw in New York and when they televised road games they got a much bigger audience than the Yankees. From 1952-1956 they still earned more money from all sources than any other team in baseball.
Of course the piece of shit that was Walter O'Malley could care less about whether his baseball team which should forever simply be called the Los Angeles National League Baseball team played in a real ball park. And one of the first things he did when he moved his team to LA is he took all the games off television. About 5 years later, he allowed the games the Los Angeles National League baseball team played in San Francisco to be televised. He also made sure that when he built his ball park in Chavez Ravine, he didn't put in water fountains all the more to make people pay for beverages.
He was the biggest piece of shit who ever lived. The Brooklyn franchise, all things considered, was the biggest money making machine in baseball. It simply was not enough for his greed.
Of course, the piece of shit O'Malley was not the only culprit in th8is. There was the Commissioner of Baseball, Ford C. Frick, whose job it was to make decisions for the good of baseball. He could have stopped this. Then there was the President of the National League, a jerk named Warren Giles. When the Natinal League announced in May 1957 that permission had been granted to the Giants and Dodgers to move, he was asked how the League could operate without a team in New York. This imbecile's response, "Who needs New York?"
The fact is the only reason this move was made was greed. The Brooklyn franchise was still making money heads over heels. He also fabricated a plan for a ball park at Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues when he knew damn well the land belong to a private corporation (the Pennsylvania Rail Road) and that the city of New York had no legal way of obtaining the land for him.
The sad thing is so many people living in Brooklyn are cheated of the truth. There are people around who have been led to believe the franchise had lost its viability. BS. The relocation of the Brooklyn franchise was and still remains the blackest eye on baseball in its history. It is something we owe to one sub human piece of shit....Walter O'Malley. May he continue to rot in hell.
Jeff: You will always find a willing audience with me. I don't want tosee O"Malley in hell but he did a real disservice to the people of Brooklyn who deserved better. But Robert Moses must also take his share of the blame. There was other land available in Brooklyn that could have accommodated a new baseball stadium.
One correction. O'Malley did televise games from San Francisco from the first year on. That is, the last eight of the ll regular scheduled games. The first three were not televised. Of the eight that were televised, the Dodgers won only one of those games, Friday August 29, 1958 when Don Drysdale defeated the Giants 4-1.
Fred: Not to diminish your sense of loss and pain, but every real city has streetcars on its streets. The end of streetcars in Brooklyn, and that date escapes me at the moment, must also rank as a black day in Brooklyn history.
The trolley cars in Brooklyn were put to rest on October 30, 1956. The last 2 lines to go down the tubes were the 35 Church Avenue line and I believe the 68 Coney Island Avenue line.
Does anyone know if M-7's are going to run on the LIRR Far Rockaway line?
so far i havent heard anything about it. But one never knows. Right now im hearing Long beach and Huntington. so if u live anywhere on the Atlantic Branch, u should see it. the Atlantic branch is anything fron BROOK tower in Flatbush Avenue, all the way to Valley stream. This is why the tracks are called Atlantic 1 and 2. GOTTA KNOW UR PC!
I'd like to walk over the Williamsburg Bridge this weekend, but I have some questions.
1. What's the closest station in Manhattan to the entrance to the walkway?
2. What's the closest station at the Brooklyn end?
3. Where exacty is the entrance in Manhattan?
4. Is there more than a 70% chance of me being mugged or killed? I hear that walkway can be dangerous at times. I plan to go during daylight.
Thanks.
1. Essex & Delancey
2. Marcy Ave
3. IIRC, in the middle of Delancey St right at the mouth of the bridge (i.e., between the Manhattan bound and Brooklyn bound lanes).
4. ? Midafternoon on a Saturday it's probably mobbed. Don't go if you don't see anyone else on the walkway.
I'd like to walk over the Williamsburg Bridge this weekend, but I have some questions.
1. What's the closest station in Manhattan to the entrance to the walkway?
A1. Essex Street on the J or Delancy Street on the F.
2. What's the closest station at the Brooklyn end?
A2. Marcy Avenue on the J.
3. Where exacty is the entrance in Manhattan?
A3. Delancy & Clinton Streets.
4. Is there more than a 70% chance of me being mugged or killed? I hear that walkway can be dangerous at times. I plan to go during daylight.
A4. Haven't heard or seen any recent incidents on the Willie B.
Enjoy the walk.
;| ) Sparky
Not on Saturday!!!!
Daytme you're fine.
Great. I've done the Manhattan, now I want to do the Willie. The Brooklyn Bridge doesn't appeal to me too much. No train tracks on it. However, I'm aware that the Brooklyn is the most popular. I wish I could walk through one of the car tunnels. That would be neat.
You can try walking the Queensborough. There used to be a train on it.
You can try walking the Queensborough. There used to be a train on it.
There used to be trains on the Brooklyn Bridge for that matter also.....
There used to be train tracks on the Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know if you can walk on the Queensboro Bridge. I know there is a stairwat at the Manhattan end. I don't know about Queens.
I don't know if you can walk on the Queensboro Bridge
There is a 24/7 pedestrian/bicycle lane on the Queensboro. It is the north outer roadway on the lower level. The Manhattan access is from 60th St just east of 2nd Ave. The Queens access is on Queens Plaza North and 23rd St. There are no stairs.
There are or used to be trains on all 4 East River bridges. All traces were removed from the Brooklyn Bridge when it was rebuilt in the early 1950's. Almost all traces were removed when the Queensboro was rebuilt in the early 1980's.
The outer lower roadways of the Queensboro Bridge are where the
last trolleys in New York State operated till 1958. Besides the
2nd Avenue El on the upper level.
;| ) Sparky
That company got bus-substituted & is now called Queens Surface Corp.
I am the only remaining qualified trolley operator < G >
A qualified Trolley Operator at a company that has no Trolleys.
Steel or Rubber Tired. >G<
;| ) Sparky
Yea, but we do have 600 volts.
AC or DC?
;| ) Sparky
An interesting bit of trivia on the Queensboro Bridge trolley tracks is that, for a short time, there were four tracks, two on what is now the outer roadways, and two at the outer edge of the inner/lower roadway. When the inner tracks were eliminated (not long after the bridge's opening), the outer tracks had three power supply systems, conduit for Third Avenue, and two trolley wires, one each for the Steinway Lines and the Manhattan and Queens Traction. I believe the bridge shuttles used the Steinway Lines wire.
I believe the Sacramento Northern used third rail, pantograph/catenary, and simple trolley pole/trolley wire, each on distinct sections of track. But perhaps the Queensboro Bridge was the only location anywhere where three distinct power supply systems were in simultaneous use on the same track.
Also I recall reading or hearing that at some location on the bridge the third rail position transitioned from Manhattan Elevated to IRT subway position (lower and further from the running rail, though without a cover board). If this is correct, and you count the contact wire for the bridge's underdeck inspection traveler (three phase AC, I think), there would have been five vehicle power supplies of five different designs on the bridge, perhaps a unique situation.
Anyone care to follow-up/clarify/provide more details?
Ok here's the answer to your questions:
1.Essex St(J,M,Z)/Delancey St(F)
2.Marcy Av(J,M,Z)
3.Its at the foot of the bridge on the corner of Essex St and Delancey St, you'll see a B39 bus stop depending which side you are on.
4. Just be cautious because you never know.
Have a safe trip this weekend.
FB41
Would I be Mugged or killed? What are you made of Veal or just stupid ? During Daylight Hours on a Saturday you plan on walking the bridge all you are going to see are hasidics and bowery Yuppies.You may not be familiar with the area But still THE CITY HAS CHANGED!!!!
INstances of Tourists being killed is very rare ,Stop thinking of my Beloved New York city as crime infested hellhole.It has changed alot ,Its changed to the point were I pretty much feel safe almost anywhere.
The reason I ask this is because of an OP-ED article in the Daily News where a woman claimed she was bothered everyday when walking the bridge. I have a few things going for me though:
1. I'm 6 foot 1.
2. I'm fat and ugly. :)
I doubt any guys or girls will bother me. ^_^
Nobody answered #3 correctly:
The entrance is on Delancey Street and RIDGE Street, on the south side of the bridge. This isn't the Brooklyn Bridge, the entrance isn't in the middle. It is however between the Bridge (elevated at that point, there are stairs) and the eastbound service road.
http://www.transalt.org/bridges/index.html
Everything you ever wanted to know about walking across NYC bridges. Hasn't been updated in a while, though I think most of it is still pretty accurate.
so far the only m-7's around have been heading to of on the babylon branch(my case), used for revenue service- anyone know how many the mta already has?
Those M-7's aren't in revenue service, they're just being tested. Watch closely and you'll see that they don't open the doors to the platform at the stations, but rather to the non-platform side. In fact, some of the cars don't even have seats in them yet, just barrels.
CG
so far the only m-7's around have been heading to or on the babylon branch(my case), used for revenue service- anyone know how many the mta already has?
I hope to be able to attend on Sunday, but let's do all of us a favor and wear nametags. I know what a lot of you guys look like - BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, Jeff H, Stef, Mr. T, Anon_e_mous, Bill Newkirk, etc., but it always seems that I miss meeting someone, simply because I don't know what he/she looks like!
Well, by 1000 I'll be in uniform, as will Pete the Pole (NJCoastExp) and a few others (anyone who's an operator, so we can take turns handling the regular geese and not miss too much of the charter). So nametags are a part of all that, albeit not with our handles.
See you there!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If he shows up, I'm not closing the cab door of the arnine and NO ONE is looking out the real-fan-window.
Boy ... YOU guys are no fun ... I was envisioning an OPEN storm door, and an open cab ceremony. Subtalkers don't get THAT on the railroad anymore. And hey, you guys DO have a hose car in case of a 12-9, right? :)
Right, #53 is in the yard area near the High Platform, so if we need to clean off the FOAM she's close by ;-)
We'd best park her on the yard lead then, and filler up. :)
Trips are made with the storm door open, but not if THAT person is around.
Lemme see then ... one iron maiden, one solenoid latch, apply 60 volts, no problem. <--THIS WAY TO TRAINS :)
That's how we rode on 1689 back in 1980 - storm doors open, fans running, doors opening and closing, buzzer buzzing.
I'll settle for one out of four.:)
Phooey!!!!!
If Dennis Riga shows up I guarrantee you won't need a nametag to be introduced...
If Dennis Riga shows up I'm taking the next train home!
Peace,
ANDEE
Selkirk has ways to hose down the foamers. It's the upstate thing to do. STEP lively, move it or lose it. :)
Selkirk's the guy who looks like Santa and bingbong will be joined at the hip. Then again, after an hour or two, I'll need a nametag to figure out who *I* am. :)
Uniforms? Woohoo! I was going to dress up in standard NYCTA uniform of the time myself, jeans, blue shirt and dangling keys. Is there something more meaningful to wear? Heh.
I wish I could be there with you folks, but work is calling. {SIGH}
Should be fun! I want a detailed report with pictures, if you may.....
-Stef
Well, being a loyal American, would you believe I don't own a camera? No kidding. Damned shame doody calls though, was hoping to meet you this year. There's always next of course. Sorry to hear it. I'll drop a token in the hole in your memory. :)
In honor of me, you shall pass through the turnstile of royalty on the high level platform. All hail the Station Agent!!!!!!!!!!
-Stef
Heh. I'm honored! I won't even try to flash a pass like the old days and ante up then. :)
I'm trying to see is its possable for me to make it. I'm thinking I could make it for 10AM but have to leave no later then 3:15PM.
Sure hope there's a zebra stripe on the platform. There WILL be a test. :)
If you can do it, that'd be GREAT ... wish pops could make it too, haven't met HIM yet. But then again, we can understand if you can't.
You won't see pops he takes it easy on Sundays. There are no Zebra stripes on the Plat. At branford if your opening doors your T/O gives you 2 short Buzzers.
Interesting rule. I always associated twin beeps with closing up, let's go. It was the rule of ONE that said, "open up young skywalker." Hmmm. Maybe I need to pack a decoder ring too. Nah, I'll just rotate the drum switch to off and everyone can listen to the snickering coming outta the cab. :)
I have an intresting Buzzer systerm 2 Long 1 short means TSS. The New Tech you just hear "Thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit". As we leave the station.
Heh. Never give away your secrets. For me, I'd just wave the CORRECT finger at the zebras. :)
I never do. I have another systerm in place. I just made that one up.
Heh. At least you ain't grabbing the cord and blowing long short long short, that'd be unhappy. :)
I've got my own means of identifying myself with a buzzer.
We'll say, "All right, who's the wise guy?":)
Neener-neener.
It'd be great if you could make it, Dave. If you do get to Branford, we'd have to make you an 'unofficial Conductor' of the R-9...bet you never C/Red on an old B-Division car before...:)
Now, let's see if we could get SubBus to show up...that'd be a miracle! LOL!
Well I'll make up my mind by Tomorrow. I hope I can make it because I always wanted to go on an R9.
They're a DELIGHTFUL beast. After a run or two, you'll come to realize why us oldtimers mock today's "toasters on wheels" the way we do. Arnines made you feel like you EARNED your biweekly nut. They MADE you work. You'll come away from it truly appreciating the toys that run the rails these days from an operating standpoint. Very much like the LoV's in their own, bigger way.
The cab view was real fine Autumn in NY when I was hauling one or the other (R-9, Lo-V).
Ah, if only it weren't for preserving the natural condition, it'd be neat if OTOH wasn't required for the V ... I've never done one of those and from what I've seen in them sitting around, the controller is massive compared to the R-types. HiV's must be downright scary. :)
We'll have time for you to see with just your eyes ;-)
The H & M is accesable too.
Cool! Maybe a peek inside the standard (or what's left of it) would be neat too ... but MOST importantly, let's not make everybody else crazy and make things too much work here - after all, we're in this for *FUN* ... but if it happens, cool, if not, just as cool. I'm coming for the PEOPLE, the trains are a sideshow to me.
The ONE thing that'd do it for me is being able to wake up 1689 from "power down" and do the prepping rituals ... THAT was the one thing I used to look forward to twice a day when I was with the show. Running them was boring by comparison. :)
I say let's all walk down together once we're ready to rouse 1689. Then we can let you do the honors after you've said, "Hey buddy, long time no see".:)
You're not fooling ANYONE. You just wanna kick that dangling thing by the tires so she won't charge up. SSSSSsssssssss .... :)
And here I was thinking ther were no tires on these trains.....
Oh no! It's Mrs. Selkirk in a clever disguise. Quick! Hide your handles, everybody! :)
Watch the closing doors......if this rig is rocking, don't bother knocking....(as if you never heard that before...)
:o)
Welcome to the asylum... check your sanity at the door, all ye brave souls who enter here :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why do I get the feeling we're going to have a riot come Sunday?:)
Had this been some 20-odd years ago, it may have evolved into a toga party.
We could have a Toga party *now* ... after all, we're living in times that are JUST like the 80's, except THIS time around the music sucks. :)
I can just see us all decked out in togas, rolling down the track on 1689, and chanting:
TOGA!! TOGA!! TOGA!! TOGA!!
And I can also see the local constabulary and a few ministers rounding us up, tying us to all those handy poles along the line, speaking tongues and asking us if we'd like to *MEET* Jesus. Watch it son, it's a Sunday in Connecticut. No beer, no noise and nobody down. :)
I thought Connecticut backed off on some of their Blue Laws even when I still lived there.
I am reminded of a humorous incident I encountered once on a train of BMT standards on the Canarsie line. We were approaching 6th Ave. bound for 8th Ave., and this guy I was sharing the railfan window with turned to his friend and hollered, "Hey Ron, next stop, Havana!" If it wasn't that, it would be some Puerto Rican guy trying to sell a whip for two dollars.
Even New York won't allow beers and there's noise laws, so I'd expect that over in Connecticut we'd still have to respect the fact that it's a Sunday morning and behave accordingly. Besides, we DO wanna hear them compressors and motors, no? :)
I may be tempted to do my best impression of spur-cut bull and pinion gears wailing away, although I don't think 1689's gears will even approach middle C, given the limitations of museum operation. I'll know for sure just what pitch they'll reach.:)
I'll be playing it by ear also - depends on track conditions and MAS for the sections. But watch it - get TOO loud and we'll go for E above middle C through the S curve. :)
As screamed by the geese in the car, no doubt! :o)
EEEEEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEEEeeeeee!!!!!!
We'll see what kinds of sounds we can get. Remind me to pack a pair of pliers just in case we can't get Unca Steve's pitch high enough. :)
Some of us have to ware our monkey suits & act professionally, at least while we are doing trolley duty < G >
Us penguins better perform on Sunday, after all the space we've
occupied on this board with anticipation.
;| ) Sparky
Us penguins better perform on Sunday, after all the space we've occupied on this board with anticipation.
Well, I can wear my penguin suit if you want, but I really thought you wanted me in uniform :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mous,
Since your still a newbie, penguin in trolley museum parlance is
an operator/conductor/docent in uniform. No ones called you a
penguin YET. >G<
; | ) Sparky
Wow. Wonder how many decades it's going to take for ME to lose that shine. Heh.
I take it pinstriped choochoo hats are out of uniform? :)
I found my pinstripe cap and will have it with me - along with my Mets cap.
>>"I take it pinstriped choochoo hats are out of uniform? :)"<<
>>>>"I found my pinstripe cap and will have it with me"<<<<
Pinstriped caps allowed on Rapid Transit only. Not proper
attire for Surface Car Operators etc..."the PENGUINS"
;|) Sparky
Qvack! Then Fedoras must be a felony. :)
Heh. GOOD. Then I can borrow yours. On the occasions when I've operated locomotives and subway cars, I've usually worn a fedora. Makes crews NUTS. :)
Question, while I'm at it ... are any of our "circle" going to be up there on Saturday afternoon late? We're going to be in town then but I don't want to just roll out there and be in anybody's way the day before. But if anyone's going to be there, email me and we'll hook up.
Kevin,
To the best of my knowledge, no one from our circle will be about
on Saturday except Jeff H. But he's a member of the board and
do not know how late the board meeting on Saturday, held off
property will last.
;| ) Sparky
Ah well, no harm in asking. I figured if someone was around, we could at least take a broom to the floor and some Windex to the glass and such, take a few minutes of personal time to look around inside and make nice to our hunny. :)
Who'll be staying late on Sunday to clean her down from the
fooooooooaaaaaaammmmmm etc.? Disinfect the motormans cab,
no christening pleeeeezzze.
;| ) Sparky
We were planning to head home on Monday ... so you've got US ... always happy to do our bit, especially since we'll BE there ... maybe CI Peter can bring some SERIOUS defoamer with him. :)
Hey Folks,
No Captain Kirk for about 48 hours. >G<
;| ) Sparky
I wouldn't count on it, Unca Sparky ... despite our current regime, we still live in a weird wired world, invented by Al Gore and I'll even be able to irritate the kwap out of subtalkers while running an Arnine (that's what the reverser key is for, either eating a sammich on an express dash or posting to tubtalk) ... my trusty laptop will be with me and I've already spotted the digital cell towers in the area.
Unca Selkoik may be mobile, but he's ALWAYS wired. Moo. :)
Anon_e_mous,
Since your still a newbie, penguin in trolley museum parlance is
an operator/conductor/docent in uniform. No ones called you a
penguin YET. >G<
; | ) Sparky
I know that... but I've got this nice black and white penguin suit hanging in the closet too... ruffles on the shirt and everything :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ooooooo! I wanna see the PUFFY SHIRT! :)
The staff still out numbers the guests, so we're aren't worried < G >
T/O-GA! T/O-GA! T/O-GA! :)
>>"The staff still out numbers the guests, so we're aren't worried < G >"<<
The staff maybe outnumbered by the number of guests, as per inquiries
being handled. But they all become members of the family on Sunday,
even if they are newbies. Hopefully, some will come back in the
spring as probies or sooner to get DIRTY.
;| ) Sparky
Sparky, email me a list... want to make sure I am appropriately prepared :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, OK, you can go by yourself. Oi gevalt!:)
It doesn't look like I'm going to make it. I hope everyone going has fun!
Dave, Sorry about that, but there will be other times.
Mr t
That's a shame. Some other time, hopefully.
Too bad, Dave. Don't worry the R-9's not going anywhere. They'll be other opportunities to 'assume the position'...;)
Sorry to hear that, but I do understand. Hey ... look on the happy side, at least we've already met. I still owe you a white knuckle ride then. :)
I'll have my camera and tripod handy for a group shot. We can park 1689 by the high loading platform and pose for posterity on the platform along the side of the car.
Oooo! Oooo! Oooo! We'll have to make you a pirated glare guard and knit you a VEST. :)
And you can hold all that motorman's stuff they carry with them - keys, air handle, butt plug, etc.:)
On second thought, I can bring my engineer's cap.:)
Well, I'll be wearing my NONstandard "Teeyay hat" ... I actually wore this kinda hat when I worked the TA, back then they wouldn't shoot you for not wearing the traditional blue pinstripe, though they gave you one. I preferred keeping my ears outta the sun. It was funny, they'd climb all up and down your butt if you were a conductor out of uniform, but since you often had to go down to the rails as a motorman, they didn't much care as long as you had your badge, your ID and were wearing PANTS. :)
They must have figured the conductor is in the public eye a lot more than the motorman.
Not to denigrate folks on the rails these days in any way, but you *DID* get "Branford style dirty" back in the old days and keeping a motorman's uniform clean and presentable was basically an oxymoron. You got axle grease, steel dust, had to get down on your hunkers to reach for the trip cock, climbing cars in the yard, etc. By the time you actually went OUT on a run, you already looked like piglet on some days. And if you slipped in the yards on your way to your put-in, well ...
Working out between the cars, a conductor's uniform didn't fare all that much better back in those days and the TA was in LOVE with polyester. Ever smell polyester on a rainy day? I'd take the homeless. But as long as your TIE was straight and you didn't lose your hat. :)
Why worry about ties when I could where a turtle neck.
Heh. If you had worn a tie, chances are one of us would have broken out the scissors. :)
Why worry about ties when I could where a turtle neck.
Just like Stef, I'll be working as well :-(
I think BMTman will have his camera handy.
Paul
If I show up I will be in my Monkey suit.
Ahhh....you are TSS
Nah, his radio won't work. SURE sign he's a beakie. :)
Don't forget to bring some bananas and an extra change of civvies. When that little lamp lights up on the air gauge, we *GO* ... heh.
Good...then you can play C/R on a BIG subway car (not like A-Division)...;)
And you had better know how to 'assume the position' to do the job! LOL!
I don't know anything about opening doors between cars. Darn I think I'll find a New respect for Redbirds after this.
Three words: hold on tight!
Three more words: watch your step!
[Three words: hold on tight! Three more words: watch your step!]
Especially since it's a ONE car train, so unless you bring your sky hook there's only room on the ledge for one foot :-(
P.S. Check out the photo in the Boston/Seashore Field Trip section of this site for someone assuming the possition on Seashore's "A Train".
Oh, I've managed to get both feet on one of 1689's step plates. Either that or I had one foot on the step plate and one foot on the pantograph gate. In any case, I was holding on tight to the trigger box and stirrup. Not any more, though.
Yeah, the position they assume these days is similar, but usually their pants are down. Pity there isn't a PAIR of Arnines ... then the train would never have to ROLL. :)
Oh Doug does the danglying keys to the T!!
Yeah, I spotted that feature last Christmas. Heh. Feh, maybe I'll carry a Motorola and have everyone wondering where this poor misguided TSS came from. :)
Bring a pair of Chaps ol' boy...;) HA!
Nah, us upstaters come NATURALLY bow-legged. Shall I bring a case of DEPENDS for the geese? :)
[Is there something more meaningful to wear?]
Uh...there's always Depends...:)
Or a conductor's uniform.:)
Dang ... should have read this one first. You guys are gonna need them though if that shunt step is still wired in ...
AFAIK none of Shoreline's cars are neutered.
Don't know about the subway cars, but four of the five trolleys we use in revenue service are... parallel's blocked on all except 4573.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Weeeeeeeeeeee! Somehow I have a feeling a wire will be off now that they've heard "Balancing Speed Coasting Selkirk" is on the way. :)
Just kidding, I got over my "need for speed" BEFORE the TA.
I hear 6688 still has a lot of get-up-and-go.
Yep, and if conductor Dave and Stef don't show up, we're gonna crush her like a beer can. :)
Hey Guys,
Do you think the TSS [Trolley Services Supervisor] would put both
out of the Yard Limit together???
You want Stef to have conniptions??? Respiratory failure or sometin???
;| ) Sparky
Just kidding ... I'd sooner crash a BEER truck. Besides, I expect 6688 will be laid up all peaceful and serene inside. Besides, Unca Dave is planning to TRY to make it and I know him well. There's no WAY he'd allow anything untoward to occur, and you'd have to get past HIM to administer the beatings. :)
..."Besides, I expect 6688 will be laid up all peaceful and serene inside"...
Maybe yes, maybe no...dependent on the RTS [Rapid Transit Supervisor] of the Day.
The plot thickens.
;| ) Sparky
Well, rest assured that no harm will come to ANY rolling stock. I've got WAY too much respect for everything and everyONE. But I *do* love to bust chops. :)
Looking forward greatly to WHATEVER happens.
I know that, but I had to bust yourn a bit.
;| ) Sparky
Heh. More of a reassurance to anyone else that's coming up on Sunday, YES I'm crazy, but I'm not insane. Insane costs extra. :)
Well the Branford Fire Department has been alerted to pad the
blood box if they received a call for 55 Alex~Warfield Road.
Also to bring de~foaming materials to enter the property.
;| ) Sparky
Sure hope they have enough nets in the supply truck too. Ya never know. :)
Glad to hear it Kevin ... we don't want to have to invent a new use for the 3rd Rail Slipper < G >
"Whipping the loony" would be a *new* use for da slippers? Dang. We did that back in MY day to fend off the excessively foamy. :)
I wouldn't mind seeing one of 6688's cabs up close and personal and checking out the breakers, door controls, etc. Not to mention getting a look at 2775's trucks and its cab, if we get lucky.
6688 might be the first RT yard move, all depends if it is raining or not.
Aw Lou, there suppose to be present to see what the Trolley Service
Supervisor and the Rapid Transit Supervisor evil minds contrive.
You're taking away the fun. >G< They have to be there to see
what we do.
;| ) Sparky
There you go Sparky, a little anticipation is what we need.
Don't want our friends to be disappointed ... it's not like we were going to run 10 car trains or something.
I for one am realy looking forward to this large group of friends who get to hang with each other in a familiar place.
Now if Bob and Fred show up, there's bound to be aching ribs all around.:)
Better pray for some sun otherwise the noted banners won't be going up as planned....:(
>>"Better pray for some sun otherwise the noted banners won't be going up as planned...."<<
Why not indoors, if Kyle jerkes us about with moisture on Sunday.
;| ) Sparky
Sounds good to me!
Don't worry, get answers....National Weather Service forecast page for Branford/East Haven!
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/CTZ006.php?warncounty=CTC009&city=East+Haven
Save the link, so you can have it handy for any upcoming events. Includes links to radar (updated every 10 minutes) and satellite (updated every hour).
"Transit Museum and Weather Together"....just kidding, Todd!
Well, it may be a day late, but Transit and Weather Together will be on this coming Monday morning... for those of you who may wish to enjoy your Columbus Day holiday at the STORMFAN WINDOW.
You gonna have any free time during you stint on WCBS Monday? A group of us will be plying the rails Monday. Come and join us (or maybe we can come and get you, I dunno ...)
--Mark
Sure, I'll have plenty of free time after 9:30am! But I'll be 200 miles away from the nearest IND, BMT, or IRT station. My nearest station is Anderson/Woburn on the MBTA Commuter Rail if you're in the area :-)
Todd,
That'll blow his senses.
;| ) Sparky
Ahh, the magic of radio - you're gonna be in the remote transit & weather together station :)
Oh well, I don't think the Q train is goingg there anytime soon!
--Mark
I expect you treat 6688 with TLC if you get to play with her (?). She'll tell me if you've been bad, so behave...
-Stef
Heh. Now you KNOW I'd be kind to any train ... I believe she's taking the day off though - I'm still hoping to get a peek in the barn since you guys have done so much work on her, but my understanding is she'll not need the gap fillers moved come Sunday. Sorry I'll miss ya, damned TA. Wanted to meet ya ... next time tho' ...
If this turns out to be a success and I think it will, we should hopefully see another charter somehwere along the way.
-Stef
Next time, we'll take your car. Literally. Whoop. :)
Sounds like The Taking of Branford 7-3-0.:)
You gotta watch the brakes on 6688. Very touchy, I understand.
REAL brake shoes on IRT cars spoiled a LOT of motorpeople over the years. Charge the station, apply and scrape the geese off the bulkheads. When they replaced the pig iron with them cheapass Buster Brown shoes, I'm willing to bet that a lot of trains came to a halt at the NEXT stop. :)
Sounds about right. I hear the R-10s had touchy brakes, too.
The saying went "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em" ... of course, after "Buster Brown shoes" (composite shoes) came to town, it was "this is a full-serve station" ... you get used to it. :)
Yes, we will and preferbaly on a Saturday, when public operations
are not scheduled. A real foamfest. The entire railroad to
ourselfs. But of course the recruits joining the ranks this
Sunday, will all be informned of the Annual Foamfest in April,
2003. The last Saturday of the month, is Annual Members Day.
;| ) Sparky
My daughter & her boyfriend became foamer that day in 2002.
Yeah, but are they going to do a repeat performance...that's the question...
She's a little scared that she might get the same pilot < G >
Guys & Dolls,
6688 should make a cameo appearance for all to see on Sunday,
Foamers and Guests. Weather permiting.
;| ) Sparky
Could I have a lesson on opening the doors on it?
Maybe, if you behave.
;| ) Sparky
OK, I promise to stay inside 1689 while it's moving.:)
IF I make it, by the Lords Graces, I will have my TA ID and much more to identify me. In 24K Gold Plate. I represent my crew, East 180th, my yard, 239th and NYCTA CED. Means far more than my first anniversary in transit having been asked to show up by so many internet friends. CI Peter
Bob, It's going to be a captive audience with Sparky & the rest of the crew checking tickets, so it will be a place "where everybody knows your name".
i.e. since it's a "charter" casual folks who show up at the museum this day & pay $6 won't be part of R-9 event.
P.S. Anyone not already signed up, please e-mail JohnS (Sparky) or Lou from Brooklyn. There are a few seats left, but not much room at the Railfan window < G >
I didn't realize you had to "sign-up"
Yes, advance reservations are requested since this does involve the charter of a subway car... see the Upcoming Events section of this website for more information. Sparky would be delighted to hear from you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I sent an email to Lou.
Be looking forward to meeting you along with the other folks! :)
Yes, Selkirk, You're on the the top of my "must meet" list. Especially since what Doug has said about you!
Oh CHIT! Really ... I didn't do it! Lies! All LIES! Now I'm going to have to lock myself in the #2 end ... for safety. :)
Is ThermoKing the builder of the HVAC units used on the new tech trainsets?( just a guess) I've guessed that the A/C units used in the R142 and R142A are different because I've seen both rooftop A/C units when looking down at a train below me from the Mezzazine of various subway stations, and they look very different. Am I correct in my assumation?
Thanks in advance for responding or even taking the time to read this thread if you haven't all killfiled me yet.
Being that I just graduated with a Bachelor Degree in Mechanical Engineering, and I am a major transit fan, one of the major fields I'm looking for work in is transit. Since this board is full of people who work in that field, I thought I'd ask everyone here on SubTalk if they know anyone or any company who is looking to hire a recently graduated Mechanical Engineer.
While I'd like a job in transit, I'm also interested in other areas, like building systems (HVAC/plumbing/fire protection etc), aerospace, and especially any job that requires a lot of solid modeling (Pro/E, SolidWorks, AutoCAD etc), so if any of you know someone in those fields as well, please don't hesitate to post or e-mail me!
And with that a question... While I am a Canadian citizen, I am open to relocating to the US (especially NYC!!!!). I and most Canadians know that Mechanical Engineers do not require sponsorship to work in the US (under NAFTA), but I'm not sure if many American companies know that. In your opinions, do you think my being a Canadian citizen hinders me in any way when applying to US jobs?
You all can e-mail me if you do not want to post info on this site. Thanks to anyone who responds!!
Well, consider the following companies in your resume plans:
Bombardier
GM-Greyhound Canada (if they still exist).
Neoplan USA (Lamar Colorado)
Transit Manufacturing Corp (Roswell NM)
Kawasaki (Yonkers NY for starters).
If you like large power plant and industrial facility design type situations consider:
Bechtel Power Corporation (Imperial Highway, Norwalk, CA, HQ in San Francisco), and Flur-Daniel. They do power plants, transit trains (BART) and airports, among other things.
And how about Sargent and Lundy Engineers (Chicago, IL) or Raytheon Engineers and Constructors (offices in Philadelphia).
Automotive components are designed and built by TRW (Cleveland) and Budd Company (Philadelphia, but moving to Michigan soon.) Cummins Engine makes engines for buses. Look them up and send a resume.
If you like 3D modelling and don't mind classified work, try Boeing in Redondo Beach or Canoga Park CA (they're hot right now with defense-related orders) or Lockheed in Burbank CA (Skunk Works).
Do you like working with air/gas storage technology? How about Liquid Air Corp. (not sure where they are headquartered). Their products are used in all settings, from industrial to healthcare.
Email me and we can discuss this some more.
Also, if you speak French well, Bombardier could send you to work some rotations in Paris at their ANF Industrie carbody group. They make both passenger and freight cars. They are located in the La Defence neighborhood of Paris. Call Bombardier in Montreal for more info.
Screw the Frenchies...go for decent work. NYC DCAS is on the internet...do a search if you want a TA internship. Just understand that engineers make pittance today...accept good work for the experience. TA work is excellent work...but I'm making far more money from the start than engineers and changing out oil and brakes is not my fortee.
Oooh...pardone moi...essscuse me...I know you're doing an inspection but woood you mind eef eye made door repairs??? Heavy hitters from Vichy Bombardier trying to fix their garbage trainsets.
You can e-mail me too. I have no fear of asking questions in TA...looking for a decent 'out' from Car inspection IF someone does not put 'The little grey cells' between my ears to use per Inspector Poroit. Car Inspector Peter
Does anyone know of a place where I can purchase a destination rollsign from the redbirds before they ar e scrapped?
I've seen a few offered from time to time on eBay.
They should sell them at the Transit Museum gift shop in Grand Central. Even tourists would buy them, not just railfans.
Lot 76 on Houston Street....
take 6 train to Bleecker..
Saw this on Railroad.ner LIRR forum.
Everyone knows that the older LIRR diesel fleet leaves much to be desired. However, one unit, #167, was given a new repaint. What do you think ?
Sorry for the cut and paste. Hope you get through.
http://hometown.aol.com/bjk869/LI167site/Page_1x.html
Bill "Newkirk"
It looks great! I saw and photographed it at Jamaica on the way home from Peggy's tour on Sunday. The two end platforms serving tracks 6,7,and 8 were closed, and 167 was on track 7 with a construction debris train. It is very attractive. It's too bad they didnt have that scheme when the MP15's were in passenger service. It would have looked good on the GP38-2's also. I never saw a LIRR with glossy paint either! It really looked sharp.
It was reported in today's Newsday that EMD plans to send
the troubled DE30 and DM30AC's to Norfolk Southern's shops
in Pennsylvania for warranty repair. It had me thinking
of some what if senarios: What if the MTA had bought
second hand GP40s and sent them to Bombardier-Alstom to be
rebuilt as GP40PHL-2 locomotives? What if the MTA had
instead purchased low profile versions of the Genesis dual
mode engines OR a version of the new ALP-46 that takes
power from the third rail? These are just ideas, I don't
expect the MTA to sit up and take notice.
I don't understand why the MTA went for the DM/DE30's for the LIRR when they could have gotten Genesis units, that they bought for MEtro North, and Amtrak has. They are proven units, as opposed to the DM/DE30's, and also run dual mode. The whole LIRR DM/DE30 purchase has been a disaster. I don't know how many "brand new" engines are out of service. There are some that are even canabilized and probably won't see service again! And these are basically new engines!
Just to let everyone know http://www.nyrail.org is back.
According to the BHRA website, there's an Atlantic Ave. tunnel tour scheduled for Oct. 27th. This is worth seeing and hearing the interesting stories about its construction, operation, demise and rediscovery.
Someone also please tell them to do something about protecting their trolleys in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. I drove past them this afternoon and it looks like someone left some of the doors open.
They left the doors open and you left
a post without a website address or
phone to call for tickets/information...
I'll be in PA for the PCC's.
Check out BHRA's website brooklynrail.com for further info regarding the tunnel tour. My post was just an FYI, not an advertisement.
BTW - I have no idea who left the trolley's doors open. One might hope they'd be locked up and the cars tarped.
This was the first opportunity for this Station Agent to man a booth at a location along Queens Blvd. I have always worked at booths in Manhattan and the Bronx, and regularly at Stillwell Av two picks ago. Up to this point, I have never had a booth in Queens, and it was a first, as I got bumped from a late job to an early one (on the extra list for the day). Damn! It was good.... I passed Continental Av along the way and gave my regards to passing Rs and Vs coming into and out of the relay. Heh.
It should also be noted this was the first time I have gotten to ride the 63rd St tunnel connector. It was a nice ride from Queens Blvd to 63rd St and Lexington Av.
-Stef
So where were you supposed to work and where on Queens Blvd were you?
A Lunch Relief (2859 sound familiar?) that started out of 46th St. It was P/T Booth manning initially, and proceeded towards Sutphin Blvd.
-Stef
Closest I had to that was a L/R with a P/T booth at the beginning at Northern Blvd that wound at Parsons/Archer.
I have not been to Queens in over a year. I just can't stand the # 7 Line.
Hate the 7 line huh? You're not the only one. It seems that alot of people hate that line. Yet it's a high seniority line. So what's your beef with the 7?
First of all the line is too crowded. These people would risk thier lives over missing the train. I seen people try to pull the doors open after they close. I didn't even get that on the #6 during the redbird days. The # 7 has the worst riders they do those crazy things then even call up to complain about stuff. The supervision is bad as well. I hear lots of stuff about that PM TSS he hates C/R's for some reason. I not even going to get into it about the T/D's. Then our fellow T/O's and C/R's think they own the crewroom. Lets not forget the 5 Trippers. I rather do two trips to Flatbush on the #2 Line.
I only worked on the #7 Line 3 times and hated it. Most C/R's I know that work the line say they only do it because its close to home or its a sweet job.
As much as I hate the line is has its good points. Well only 2 It outside and has R62A's.
Rude riders! The door holding is the worst, we get it bad at Queensboro plaza, Grand Central, and 74th st. Riders will push and shove. You should see them running for the train at GCT. It's like their life depended on it! :-0
I still wonder why the 7 is the worst though. Must be a combination of Queens attitude and the rough and tumble neighborhoods around Junction.
When you grow up and become a senior station agent, do 63 and Lex.
I'll bug you every day....I just have to get on my scooter and roll down the hill. CI Peter
63rd and Lex is great! No hassles, no worries....
-Stef
Got my pictures back today from my trip to the Syracuse Amtrak station last Friday. They're not the most beautiful shots in the world thanks to my iffy camera and my knack for visiting Syracuse on cloudy days, but in case anyone's interested, here's a link.
Nice photos of Syracuse. Thanks for posting.
--Brian
Nice shots. As I said on the other thread, anything would have been better than the old Syracuse Amtrak station. It's a bit of a distance from the SU campus (which is how I got to know the old station and the old-old station that was converted into the Greyhound terminal), but it's still a heck of a lot more accessable than the East Syracuse site, and with the Carousel Center nearby, bus service from downtown is far better than the old trek out on James St.
Obviously this is not the station used by NYCRR (and others, if it was a Union Station). Where is/was that building? What did it look like? Recent photos in NY Times & Trains of old Buffalo Union Sta. (newly acquired by a preservation group) prompts these quesitons.
Also, where can I see photos of OnTrack in operation?
I've been looking for OnTrack pictures myself, and I haven't come up with more than a few. There are a few websites on the NYS&W that have some shots of the RDC's, but all I could find was what AltaVista gave me. The official websites don't have photo galleries.
There was a thread a few days ago about the old Erie station downtown and how Amtrak was bumped to the outskirts of town when they built I-490 on the ROW. I think that station was used by the Central as well, but my Syracuse history is still fuzzy. I'll try to dig up a map I found online once of Syracuse before the interstates arrived.
Picture of the old station at http://ny.existingstations.com/ - choose Onondaga County on the bottom of the page and scroll down to Syracuse - Erie Blvd. East.
Lots to report here.
R-142 Front:
6801-05 and 7051-55 in service week of 10/1/02.
7061-65 delivered Friday 10/04/02.
7056-60 operating on Dyre Av test track.
7031-40 are burn testing and is at Unionport Yard, should be next train to enter service.
R-142A front:
7726-30 delivered, were reported to be outside of shop today.
7711-20 at Unionport Yard for testing purposes.
7686-90 and 7706-10 in service on the 4.
Remaining R-26s and R-28s pulled from service as of 10/7 after the PM Rush. Honorary last train was 7819/18-7846/47-7939/38-7863/62-8786/87. 8694-95 also pulled from service. Get your pics now! Only 12 green stickered R-29s remain...
The remaining R-29s in service should be IIRC - 8708-09, 8716-19, 8740-41, 8784-87.
-Stef
7726-30 were outside of the barn at the East, which is what I meant to say.
-Stef
'East' has interesting connotations. Sometimes I get the feeling my Deputy Superintendent commits alms to the Higher Gods of the East.
'We need these tools from the East, parts for this trainset are only available from the East, the East got special gauges but did not release any to us, this trainset failed inspection and we have to release it to the East.' East 180th must be Mount Olympus and populated by 'Gods.' Is the East Red? CI Peter
The only R142A Train i saw today @ 125th Street/Lexington Ave is #7671-75/#7681-85, #7670-66-#7665-61 & #7676-80-#7691-95 on the #4 line also saw #7035-31/#7040-36 testing on the Lexington Av Express.
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Someone told me they rode 7686-90 and 7706-10 a few days ago....
-Stef
I rode 7706 last week on the 4. Sweet ride indeed. Can't wait for more. Get rid of these "Rotbirds" already.
#7706 4 Lexington Ave Express
I saw SEPTA's Silverliner II #269, the one that still says "Pennsylvania" over the windows, leading a West Trenton train at Market East at 7:05 AM on Tuesday.
Wow, you've been trying to catch that one for some time.
HOW NICE!
I doubt if that lettering is original. It looks like it was repainted. Otherwise after all these years, any lettering would look faded.
Bill "Newkirk"
Do you think ChuChuBob would let you put that image in a calendar?
>>Do you think ChuChuBob would let you put that image in a calendar?<<
My calendar is strictly New York City subways. Sorry.
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably old lettering retouched by order of some SEPTA manager or PR executive who is a railfan, or at least who is not devoid of sentiment.
I doubt if that lettering is original. It looks like it was repainted. Otherwise after all these years, any lettering would look faded.
Yes, like the "ylvania" on Silverliner II #218.
Hey! I saw that same car this morning, I also saw it a about a week ago, and did one hell of a double take. I wasn't sure if it really was 269, or even if it really said Pennsylvania. Actually I was about to post a question about it, but now I can see that not only am I not nuts, but it was infact 269. This morning (wednesday), I saw it headed west up the viaduct from 23rd and Market. Unfortunately an eastbound Silverliner IV set and the damn PECO building conspired to keep me from seeing more than glimpse of it. Musta been about 7:40 or so, I didn't even the route markers on the cars it was coupled to, but I'd imagine it was an R3, that and the R6 seem to be the big haunts of the early model Silverliners.
Thank you for posting that.
Small world. I took the R6 home tonight (6:30 train out of University City) and two odd things happened. First, there was a set of refurbished IV's on the train (I rode in 184) - R6 almost always gets II's or III's, so something's changing or someone screwed up. Second, at Temple, a train headed in the inbound direction, stopped at the adjacent platform, had 218 on its rear. I first noticed the letterboard and thought it was 269, but then I realized that I hadn't seen the 'Penns' lettering.
As fare as I know the lettering on both 218 and 269 is the original.
now, how about a City of Philadelphia owner plaque from PSIC days?
I recall a few years ago at least one local railfan claimed that there was still a PSIC/SEPACT plaque or indication on a S II. Darned if I know which one...
"As fare as I know the lettering on both 218 and 269 is the original."
So if you paid more you might know differently?
:0)
i just found out tonight from someone who knows someone that works with the P.A. and was working on that project. What i was told was that the reason that the Airtrain derailed was from the blocks inside the cars that simulate passenger weight. they were not fastened and they slide accross the car in a curve. when that happened, the cars went off the tracks and caused a big mess. and because the blocks moved, it killed the operator after it fell on him. so, from what i was told, it isn't the cars but the blocks inside the cars that caused damage. don't know if you know, thats why i am telling it now.
Always good to get inside information from the friend of a friend of a friend - especially if the inside information has been known since the first day. Ask your source to ask his source to ask the inside source if the cars were operating in automatic or manual mode.
it was in manual mode. it may sound like BS because it is coming from a chain but it sounds like the truth. and from what people were saying on the sight about it i decided to just put this in. i didn't see anybody in here talking about loose blocks. like i said, in my earlier post, i am saying it to let you know but don't know if you do.
Sounds like they better install seat belts for all passangers.
"it was in manual mode. it may sound like BS because it is coming from a chain but it sounds like the truth."
How does your friend "know?" All kinds of people work for the PA who don't know anything at all about this. Unless your friend is actually closely involved with the project (eg not a PATH employee, an airport employee) and has talked to engineers assigned to it, he/she doesn't necessarily know anything more than the rumors we're hearing.
I just learned from my friend's friend who has a friend who's second cousin's half-brother works for the Port Authority, and he said that because of the AirTrain derailment the opening of the line will be delayed.
Just wanted to pass it along to you.
"I just learned from my friend's friend who has a friend who's second cousin's half-brother works for the Port Authority, and he said that because of the AirTrain derailment the opening of the line will be delayed. "
Would that information need to be corroborated if the PA employee had been a third-cousin's half brother?
On the other hand, I would completely believe it if it were a half-sister (preferably a statuesque blonde).
:0)
Hey-Hey to the blonde, Ron!
What i was told was that the reason that the Airtrain derailed was from the blocks inside the cars that simulate passenger weight. they were not fastened and they slide accross the car in a curve. when that happened, the cars went off the tracks and caused a big mess. and because the blocks moved, it killed the operator after it fell on him
This is the type of cause that the PA thinks it is looking for. I would still wait for the NTSB investigation to finish.
I have one very fundamental problem with this cause. Rail systems should not be designed so that a shift in live load can cause a derailment. If this is the case - a live load shift can cause a derailment - then there is no way that AirTrain can be operated safely.
I inspected the accident site last Sunday afternoon. Views of the scene are visible from the New York City street system. Access to airport property is not required. My observations have led me to place more interest in looking at ROW failure rather than excess speed or shifting weight.
The evidence I saw suggests that the guideway is out of plumb with the support columns. The section immediately before the derailment, is worse than other sections that I examined. I've tried to look up the details about the guideway construction on the web (for Vancourver), with only partial success. One site indicates a 3 mm tolerance for these sections. I'd judge that the beams were off center by more than that. I don't know whether this was the result of poor construction or subsequent shifting.
I wondered what provision for drainage was made for the guideway, while it was constructed. I did not see any drainage holes during my inspection. There was no effort to waterproof the guidway during constructions. Indeed, where the guideway goes from 1 to 2 tracks the inner box is exposed. The problem is that acid rain will collect and eat away the concrete - no doubt reducing its 100 year design life. There was evidence of water seepage between the precast guideway sections on the section where the derailment took place. The guideway is composed of precast sections that are held together by cables. There is not a single casting between support columns. If water seepage were to reduce the length of the concrete guideway sections - e.g. eating away where two sections meet - then the cables would be less taut and the collection of precast concrete sections between the support columns would not be a completely rigid body. I did not see any evidence that individual concrete sections moved relative to one another; I also did not see the structure under weight of a train.
This is tantalizing evidence. It may well be a red herring. I do not know important details of how the guideway is supposed to work structurally nor have I examined similar systems in other cities to know if what I saw is really an anomoly.
I'm sure that the NTSB will employ its usual thoroughness in this investigation and prefer to wait for their report rather than getting some earlier "inside" information from the PA.
"I inspected the accident site last Sunday afternoon."
Do you have any kind of estimate of the radius of the curve?
No one has given out that info, and it is very relevant, since the sideways force when going around a curve is (speed squared)/radius.
Somebody else had stated that it was a fairly gentle curve. I concur. It also was not a major curve with probably only 15 to 20 degrees of arc.
I'd guesstimate the radius of curvature to be around 1000 feet.
The major curve comes a little later, after the AirTrain crosses the VanWyck Expressway.
The shallowness of the curve made me think that it should be able to take 60 mph without problems. There may have been other problems on the roadbed that were not visible. There was some sort of signalling device at the beginning of the wreck (where the acoustic baffle fell). There was also a signal that indicated a switch about a thousand feet before the section. None of the newspaper accounts indicated anything special about the tracks in the immediate vicinity of the wreck.
Understanding that your estimate of 1000' radius is just that, this sure makes the shifting load theory far less likely.
The acceleration due to the curve is (speed squared)/radius, which now comes out at 7.2'/sec^2, or .22 g's. This might be diminished further if the curve is banked at all. But even without banking, this is not enough to make concrete blocks on plywood start sliding.
Understanding that your estimate of 1000' radius is just that, this sure makes the shifting load theory far less likely.
Which is why I started looking for evidence of ROW or rolling stock failure. I previously questioned why the running wheel was in the middle of the derailed car. I started looking for evidence of ROW failure and saw many instances of unusual construction where the guideway is attached to the support columns. Again, I'm content to wait for the NTSB report and judging by some of the following design failing, I'd urge the PA to wait as well.
The accident took place at a location that was remarkably accessible to street access. It occurred above a work area that appears to have had cherry pickers on site. Access would have been much more difficult at almost every other point of the line.
I also had a chance to inspect the cars up close because the yard is on a public street. In addition to the outside hung doors, which were noted earlier - there is no connection between the cars. No storm doors of any kind. This is why the operator had to be evacuated through the front window. I question what evacuation procedures could be used in case of fire or similar single car catastrophe. Evacuation is simply not possible.
Weights in previous Bombardier tests (R142s) were stepped metal plates welded and secured...I know the guy who assembled them. The use of 16K pounds of unsecured concrete blocks was.....fill in the blanks. CI Peter
The newspapers reported the same thing last week.
NECCO was serviced earlier today: pic courtsey of Demian.
RBBX train is here in BOS -- arrived circa 21.30 today. Tomorrow, they are going to be walking the elephants. When I get down there, I'll try to record the consist.
AEM7
NECCO was serviced earlier today: pic courtsey of Demian.
RBBX train is here in BOS -- arrived circa 21.30 today. Tomorrow, they are going to be walking the elephants. When I get down there, I'll try to record the consist.
AEM7
Try not to STEP in any of the "consist" ... moo. :)
I realize this board is public, but since a limited number of individuals log on, I think it is safe for me to ask the following: Have the police considered that the sniper could attack on a subway platform, especially on stations that are outdoors, or possibly other places within the system too? If so, what precautions are being taken; is there a heavier police presence in certain areas? -Nick
Nick,
What precautions can you take? As a resident of the area, I know the area well, especially the parts in Montgomery County where the shootings occurred. Could it happen on platforms, yes, but also in gas stations, bus stops, traffic lights, etc....the only thing we can do as residents is become more aware of our surroundings and watch out for one another.....the randomness of the shootings has made it almost impossible to take specific measures to protect ourselves everywhere.
Mark
Nick, I asked my daughter that question last night (she lives in Silver Spring, shops at the Michaels where the window was shot out, uses the post office where the one woman was killed) and her response was "I'm driving into downtown now" (she's a third-year law student at Georgetown - the law campus is halfway between Union Station and Judiciary Square stops on the Red Line, so her normal commute has been to park at Glenmont and take the Metro in). This domestic terrorist has done more to instill fear - especially after shooting the middle-school student on Monday - than anything Al Qaeda has done.
(The operating assumption seems to be that it is domestic terrorism, not the imported variety... makes sense to me, obviously I don't know anything more than anyone else.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would think that people at METRO stations are relatively unlikely targets, as the sniper seems to be selecting locations where he can shoot from concealed places and make a quick escape. The larger numbers of people around the stations may offer a measure of safety.
True. Metro is not a likely target.
"Nick, I asked my daughter that question last night (she lives in Silver Spring, shops at the Michaels where the window was shot out, uses the post office where the one woman was killed) and her response was "I'm driving into downtown now" (she's a third-year law student at Georgetown - the law campus is halfway between Union Station and Judiciary Square stops on the Red Line, so her normal commute has been to park at Glenmont and take the Metro in). "
She was safer on the Metro. The sniper has been targeting people near businesses. People on trains (even elevated ones) are much harder to hit and he/she would not target underground stations because there would be no way to set up a shot with a rifle and not be seen in the act.
Your daughter increases her risk by driving (but not meaningfully) - see below. The sniper, using a telescopic sight, can fire at an automobile and achieve a fatal head or face shot from 200 yards away.
But let's look at this from a perspective, shall we? Your daughter is far more likely to die in an auto accident,choke on a piece of meat, or catch a disease than get hit by this sniper.
She needn't have changed her routine at all, really.
Statistically, she's quite safe anyway.
What she's concerned about is the walk from the parking garage to the Metro entrance itself - although the distance is short and the walk area itself is well lit there are lots of areas in the shadows where someone could easily conceal themselves and make a quick getaway. She's mainly concerned about the evenings, coming home, more so than going to downtown in the morning.
I agree with you that it's still probably safer than driving, considering all the other factors, but it's a sign of how much fear this creep has managed to generate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is my problem, too. I have not been on the Metro not because the Metro itself is unsafe, but I have to walk to and from the station and change between modes (bus and train). That is the real problem with the sniper and Metro.
I hear schools will be locked down again tomorrow...
I hear what you are saying! I would not want to walk in a parking lot, unless crowds of people were doing the same thing. -Nick
From what I understand, there were quite a number of people at the school in Bowie. Same thing with the Leisure World post office. The areas the sniper is going for have unobstructed views, making it very easy for him/her to be a long distance away and still see and hit the target. Crowds aren't going to help here all that much. I just hope they can arrest this person (they are talking about geographic profiling alot on the radio now) and our lives can resemble some sort of normality.
Yikes, this creep is definitely scary! It will be interesting to see if the shooting in Mannassas, Virginia at the gas station earlier tonight will be linked to the sniper(s). Eyewitnesses have reported seeing 2 caucasion males leaving the scene in a car. -Nick
They say it is "similar" but they are still doing testing. It has now been 7 days since I have been on the Metro but that could easily change tomorrow...
Did you venture out on the Metro today? The shooting in VA has now been linked to the sniper. -Nick
No Metro rides today. Thanks for alerting the VA shooting status to me, that info is now on wtopnews.com and washingtonpost.com.
I do hope this horrible person(s) is caught soon. Earlier this evening I was gasing-up at a gas station on Blair Road near to the Takoma Metro Station. I'm not a paranoid person, but I couldn't help but to scan in all directions. You never know.
Wayne
Yeah, I wish we had more full service stations down here, or maybe some way to electronically fill up the car. I know that's far fetched, but its bad when I have to try and think where it might be 'safe' to fill up. The one gas station I usually go to in Fairfax is right next to a Middle School, woods and a busy Gallows Road, so I am going to use the more expensive one by my apt. which seems like a less likely area. Its very sad what is going on here. I pray for any kind of break police can get. I'm not going to lock myself up here though, however, I need to go to work and need to live my life as best I can as does everyone else. Stay safe everyone.
The one gas station I usually go to in Fairfax is right next to a Middle School, woods and a busy Gallows Road
Of all names!
Your reaction is understandable (but understand that your individual risk has not measurably increased).
Assume that all 600,000 per day on Metrorail have to get off the train and walk somewhere. Assume one sniper shooting per day averaged over a month's time, and assume that the sniper always achieves a fatal shot. Your chance of being shot is 1/600,000 each day, or less than one in 100,000 over the whole month.
In exchange, you assume the increased risk of death from driving. So you've avoided one risk, accepting a greater one in return.
I consider myself to be a rather safe driver. While I won't speak for everyone else on the road, I feel safer inside my car than walking to the Metro and bus stop. Also, I have figured out a way for myself to be not only a prime target on my commute, but also I would be pretty much alone with very few people around. It isn't the odds, but it is much more assuring to be in the car than to be on the Metro these days.
At least statistically your daughter is safe. Hopefully they will catch this person soon, so everyone can go back to normal. -Nick
That's possible - although I'd think that a sniper with a rifle on a WMATA platform would stand out a bit. Last night I was driving through DC and I passed a Metro Police car who then followed me closely all the way to Takoma Park. I was just waiting for the red and blue lights to come on, but suprisingly they didn't. I guess he ran my license plate and decided that me and my Honda Accord were not suspicious. That's something I expect from Montgomery County Police.
Wayne
You're more at risk in your car than in the Metro.
One easy way for this cowardly but calculating criminal to get targets is to park his vehicle at a point with a clear view of a turn lane or highway offramp with a turn. Since he knows the range and has already adjusted his telescope to it, he can wait for a car to slow down nearing the ramp's end. The car may have to stop due to a traffic signal, but it will be slow prior to turning. Tis affords the opportunity for a head shot through the windshield. Escape would be relatively easy in the ensuing confusion.
The interesting thing though is that he has yet to shoot at anyone IN a vehicle..
Mind you, I'm not asking him to. But he's more likely to do that than shoot at Metrorail.
Maybe he intentionally selects people on foot as his targets. If he shoots at a motorist and just happens to miss or the person is wounded, but still able to drive... then that person is in a position to pursue him.
Wayne
The T/O list from the "open competitive" expires on 10/25/02. Just thought I'd pass it along to anyone still waiting for the call.
They still can extand the closing date for the list by I think 1 years if they need to. Don't quoit me on it.
Robert
A list can be renewed up to three times for a total of 4 years but must be renewed each and every year.
Since we have heard from the MTA site that there will be a new O/C T/O test we can assume the current list will not be extended or renewed.
It should have been in last week's chief if it was extended another year and it was not (my list was and it was due to expire the end of this month).
Better get your money order ready for the next test.
Remenber, I will take them at lest a year to grade the new test and send out the marks, to finals the list. This extaction might not have gotting the news yet. If the TA lets this list expire then if they need T/O right away they will be screewed, because they won't have anyone togo to.
Robert
Yes the can hire, by law.
1) Not recertify the current list, expires end of the month.
2) TA can hire for T/O title PROVISIONALY (unless there is some union agreement that does not allow Provisonal Hire)
3) Provisonals can work until the next test/list is certfied and can work if they are on the list (if they get a 100% a whole other bunch of rules apply but no one has got a 100 on a T/O test in a long time) pending their list number.
According to the hiring plan that has been posted the last class of T/O's is to start schoolcar in May.
Last class of T/O's in May? I guess that means T/O's from the current list?
If it hasn't been said before, I received notification that the last R26/28's to run in passenger service on Line 5 are: 7862/63, 7938/39, 7847/46, 7818/19. I was not told what the other 2 cars are, I assume these 8 cars were on the same train. They last ran in service on 10/7/02. They arrived at CCYD later that same evening after service for storage. They are currently on 26 track.
That's so sad. I just saw 7818/19 the other day, and said to myself, "great, she's still rolling". But 7818/19 was part of a consist containing some R33's when I saw it.
One never knows what might happen to them. They've been pulled to work service several times, and could get a reprieve. A strange sounding pair....
-Stef
You must have missed my post on Comings and Goings -
Those cars ran together with R-29s, 8786-87 before heading into retirement. These were apart of that last train that got pulled after the Monday PM Rush. 8786-87 are still in service, but 8694-95 are also out. One 10 Car Train of R-29s and Two Spares (also 29s) are all that is left of green stickered cars assigned to the 5.
-Stef
Yes, I did miss it. There are so many posts here, I just can't keep up with all of them anymore!
Heh. That's quite all right. I don't exactly read every post here.
Regards,
Stef
Now there will be no more ACF built cars carrying passengers on the New York City subways. Now this marks the end of an era.
#3 West End Jeff
Today while doing Performance Indicator Program at 125th Street/Lexington Av line saw the only R29 trainset is Lead Car #8717-16, #8708-9, #8719-18, #8741-41, #8785-84 Last Car. BTW R29 #8678-79 is still in Unionport with other R33 #89xx & #88xx?
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
That would make 8786-87 spares.
About that mysterious train at Unionport Yard, the cars in question are R-26s 7774-75, R-28s 7924-25, R-29s 8678-79, R-33s 8950-51, and R-36s 9400-01. There's not much known about these.
-Stef
Do you see a pattern here? 1 of almost each class? Something's up.
Perhaps for the 12-8 trip but I highly doubt that.
#9689 7 Flushing Local
Let's just forget that they are there.... Let's stop bring attention to them. GET IT?? :-)
-Mark
Dude,
I didn't say I knew anything did I?
Plus, I didn't bring it up originally.
-Stef
No...I don't mean you... I mean everyone. TRUST ME. We should all just forget about them.
I agree. Otherwise you could see them living with fish rather than us peoples. LETS NOT BRING THESE CARS UPON THIS BOARD, CAPICHE?
#1979 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
>>>LETS NOT BRING THESE CARS UPON THIS BOARD....<<<
UUUMMM...too late. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Ummm-true. But we're just saying not anymore.
#8786 5 Lexington Ave Express
OK, so out of all the mainline redbirds, what's still left?
Peggy asked me to post this:
She is planning five more trips and would like feedback on hwich you'd l;ike first. Please rank all four and e-mail her at Peggy-darlington@mindspring.com.
Please use the subject line: FIELD TRIP POLL
1- 4th Av BMT Brooklyn (West End, Sea Beach, Bay Ridge)
2- Culver and Brighton
3- Eastern Division (J,M, part of the L.)
4- Fulton Street IND including Rockaways
5- Queens Blvd and the 7.
Of course- Peggy will probably throw in an extension to any of these.
They all sound very nice.
One of the great pleasures in my life this past couple of years was to FINALLY have traveled on all the subway lines in the company of some SubTalkers who I call my friends. The eleveated lines are the most fun with the old BMT line to Jamaica being a real treat.
Just last Friday four of us left Jay Street & ended up at a Chineese resturant in Long Beach, it was a great way to spend a Friday after work !
Traveling the subways can be fun & with a knowledgable tour guide like Peggy, educational too !
Subwaybuff,
Tell Peggy I would enjoy any of the above. Just sometimes the times picked are hard for me to make since I work weekends.
Give her my best (haven't seen her in awhile or you too as a matter of fact).
I have tabulated early results using a 1 to 5 score with a 5 for first place, 4 for second down to 1 for fifth place an adding the results together.
Here is the list so far in order. If a tie they are ranked by the highest choice first(ie if one got a first and the other a second then the one witrh first is listed first.)
1-Culver and Brighton Line............7 points(highest 2nd)
2-Queens Blvd and 7...................6 points TIE(highest 1st)
3-Sea Beach/West End/Bay Ridge........6 points TIE(highest 1st)
4-Fulton Street IND...................6 points (highest 2nd)
5-Eastern Div (J,M,parts of L)........5 points(highest 3rd)
All will be scheduled once more results come in . I am forwarading the results to Peggy to schedule the trips.
Thansk to those who have already given your opinions. Votign closes 10/30/02.
We could incorporate one or two of those on our expedition next week.
Tell Peggy I vote for Fulton IND
wayne
When I come over on the 9th Nov I would like to do the Queens Blvd and the 7.
Simon
Swindon UK
Consider it priority Number 1- a jolly good show!
the plan is to take the E at Times Square to Jamaica and return to Roosevelt for the 7 to Flkushing and Times Square..
I'll make sure Peggy gives you a special tour for crossing the big pond.
Looking forward to it.
Simon
Swindon UK
...on BUSTALK.
Peace,
ANDEE
Been busy at work, so only had time for a little fun before my 2nd cup of coffee ... guess I'll have to do a little work & go there < G >
Splendid.
Our fellow Mr. T. is on BusTALK's Most Wanted!!
:)
A small thread at nycrail.com's board made me look at this observation about the Liberty El's "express" track (and the Rockaway Branch's also). It seems that there could never be a real JFK express or express run that utilizes the "express" track on the Liberty El, or the "express" tracks on the Rockaway Branch through to Howard Beach in the current connection infastructure.
I was looking at Peter Dougherty's track book, and the center express track seems to have been rendered useless when they connected the Liberty el to the Rockaway Branch and the Fulton Subway, from the way it was connected. The center track does not seem to continuously connect, which seems dumb.
The center track that runs through 80th Street-Hudson station does not connect to any of the tracks coming from Euclid or Grant. The only way for a train to run on that center track through that station would be going to or from Pitkin Yard. It doesn't seem possible for that track to EVER be in revenue service as it does not connect to either the local OR the express tracks from Euclid.
After 80th-Hudson, it is possible for a revenue train to switch to the express track and run through 88th-Boyd and Rockaway Blvd, but that train MUST go to Rockaway. As the express track was severed there also. It is impossible for an "express" train through Rockaway Blvd to continue on through the express track at 104-Oxford and 111th Street to Lefferts.
It seems that when they made the various connections to the Liberty El, they destroyed any possibility of using the center express track on the Liberty El. Because of the way they built Grant without a center track, and the way that only trains coming from the yard can access part of the track, and even the Lefferts end can't possibly use it's center track without merging with locals back and forth. The crazy part is that even if they wanted to run an express from Howard Beach-JFK express up the Rockaway Branch and then onto the center track of the el and thru-express through the Fulton Subway, that "express" run would have to merge with the local first at the connection where the Rock Branch rises to the Liberty El, and then again to the local tracks through 80th-Hudson because if it stayed on the express track through that station, it would wind up at the yard! And again through Grant because there is no express track to lead to the express tracks at Euclid.
So basically the express track was rendered useless when they connected the Fulton Subway to the el after Euclid.
I wonder why they connected all the various connections to the Liberty El the way they did, basically destroying any chance for a real express run from JFK. There is no way to run any kind of useful express service after Euclid. At least there could have been some kind of peak direction express service on the center track after Euclid if all the connections were done a bit differently. The way it is now, too much merging with the locals renders it useless.
Makes for a perfectly useful lay up track, though, doesn't it.
According to the 1924 BMT subway map, there are no express stops on the Fulton St El. On a 1913 BRT track map, it shows a 3 track line from Lefferts Ave to just before Sands St.
According to the 1924 BMT subway map, there are no express stops on the Fulton St El. On a 1913 BRT track map, it shows a 3 track line from Lefferts Ave to just before Sands St.
Hmmm, that's pretty interesting. It was built very similar to the Jamaica El then, except the Jamaica line never had the express track added. There were no express stations built between Crescent and 168th Street - just local stations. SOunds like the Fulton El (aka Liberty el) was built the same way. Did they use that long run for expresses in revenue service?
The Fulton St. El had a third track east of Grant Ave., and from Atlantic Ave. to just east of Franklin Ave.
The remainder of the line was two tracks. The three track sections had/have only side platforms -- no stations were designed as "express" stations.
Prior to the demolition of the section west of Rockaway Ave. in 1940, rush hour express service operated which skipped the stations between Franklin Ave. and Atlantic Ave. (Some trains skipped additional stations, but they just ran past them, as there wasn't an "express" track on other parts of the line.)
-- Ed Sachs
The section from Grant Ave. to Atlantic Ave was 2 tracks, no? From this pic, it sure looks like it:
C-type @ Montaulk/Pitkin
It sure does. Much of the Fulton el was rebuilt though. Was the section shown in the photo rebuilt after the phot was taken possibly. I don't know which section was rebuilt. I believe (not sure) Lafayette to at least Atlantic was rebuilt, and Grant to Lefferts was rebuilt. But, I am not so sure about Atlantic to Grant though (the section where Montauk Ave was) . Was that section ever rebuilt?
I believe the section from Franklin Ave to Atlantic Ave was rebuilt to dual contracts standards with a middle express track. The part from the curve towards Hinsdale/Pitkin to Grant/Liberty was never rebuilt and couldn't support anything heavier than the multisection cars.
When they coonected that stretch to the el, they weren't thinking of a JFK express (that would start nearly 40 years later). It would only skip 3 stations, one direction at a time anyway, so it wasn't necessary.
When they coonected that stretch to the el, they weren't thinking of a JFK express (that would start nearly 40 years later). It would only skip 3 stations, one direction at a time anyway, so it wasn't necessary.
40 years? Wasn't the Rockaway branch connected around 1956 or 1958? Add that with 40 and that brings you to 1998 - the JFK express was discontinued in 1990! Actually, the JFK express started in the mid 70's IIRC. But you are right they weren't thinking of the airport or JFK express when they did connect the Rockaway Branch to the el, otherwise they would not have left the northern part of the Rockaway branch to rot either.
As for the 3 stations, I think a true express run would have skipped a few more (if it was possible, which currently it isn't) - Grant, 80th Street-Hudson, 88th Street, Rockaway Blvd, North Conduit Ave,
You are correct that they weren't thinking of an airport connection. They were thinking about how to most economically link up a deal the TA couldn't pass up (the LIRR Rockaway Line) with the rest of the existing system. The original plan for the connection with the Queens Line at 63rd Drive would not come to pass.
--Mark
I was on an A train today that ran nonstop from Rockaway Boulevard to Euclid (on the local track, of course). Happy?
The latch on the front end storm door was stuck in the open position, incidentally. The T/O tried to lock it but he didn't succeed.
Sometimes when an A train is running behind schedule, it will bypass stops ( a battery run) from Rockaway Blvd to Euclid Ave.
I was on an A train today that ran nonstop from Rockaway Boulevard to Euclid (on the local track, of course). Happy?
LOL, Truthfully though, I feel the express track would be useful only if it was to be used for a JFK express type train - which was a failure the first time. And obviously the center track is basically useless on the east side of the Rockaway connection to Lefferts, so there is no need for it to connect anyway. That stub would be a more useless express than Astoria. As for the rest of the "express" track on Rockaway or the Liberty El west of the connection, local service would have to be much improved before they could even think of using express service on that line.
I was basically just curious that they did sever the track the way they did. It could have been useful for the JFK Express, or GO's when needed.
The latch on the front end storm door was stuck in the open position, incidentally. The T/O tried to lock it but he didn't succeed.
Well you said you always check them.....I wonder if they need to take a train out of service if they discover the end door can't be locked.
The latch was visibly open. The T/O turned his key, but that didn't help. (He gave a gentle tug and the door didn't open, but it was a bit sticky, like on most R-40's. This was an R-38, BTW.) I didn't want to push the issue out of selfishness: we were still on the Rockaway branch and I didn't want to have to wait 15 minutes for the next train. I held the door closed as we rounded the curve onto the Liberty el and someone else ran up to do the honors approaching Hoyt. Too bad I didn't have a camera with me.
My dream airport service, starting at the airport, would run to Howard Beach and land on the express tracks. (Through Rockaway service would be on the local tracks.) The station and switches at Rockaway Boulevard would be completely rebuilt from scratch. The four Rockaway tracks would curve into a typical four-track express station, with each of the two tracks from Lefferts branching into the local and express tracks (think of Columbus Circle or 36/4). Four tracks would narrow into three, with each express track having access to both the middle track and the local track; JFK trains would always run express but would sometimes be routed via the local track, for the obvious reason. At Grant, the middle track would run either beneath or beside the existing two-track station before connecting to both express tracks at Euclid.
I was thinking of 1940, I guess confusing the city's taking over the western part with it's taking over the eastern part.
Even though it could skip other stations, stuill, on that part of the line it would only be 3, and it would require extra switching, and not be long enough to justify it (It probaly wouldn't even have time to pass anything on the other track)
Ah, now the 40 years makes sense. You meant when the city (IND) took over the Fulton El (Liberty) and connected it to the subway. I thought you meant the when the city took over the LIRR Rockaway Branch.
The el was connected to the subway in the 1950's. The JFK express started about 20 years[1978], NOT 40 years later in and was discontinued in 1990.
This is what the center track should be used for:
IMO, they should let Rockaway Park A's skip Grant Av & let those trains use the center track in the peak direction since its only 5 trains, AM & PM rush. What do you guys think?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back
IMO, they should let Rockaway Park A's skip Grant Av & let those trains use the center track in the peak direction since its only 5 trains, AM & PM rush. What do you guys think?
The problem is (see original post) it is not possible. The center track is not continuous anymore at 80th Street, and due to Grant only having two tracks, too much merging with the locals, to make a new JFK Express an "express". One of the reasons that the original JFK Express failed was because it had to keep merging with other lines. The only way a JFK Express subway train could work again is if it runs almost exclusively on it's own tracks, at least on the Brooklyn and Queens portion anyway.
Couldn't they reconnect the various severed pieces with new switches?
Couldn't they reconnect the various severed pieces with new switches?
I don't know. I haven't been there in a few years, and don't remember how the intersections look, and even when I was through there, I didn't pay attention to the center track. I'm just going by the track map. Maybe someone else here knows the answer to that.
They would have to redo the whole junction.
That's what I thought. Not a simple task.
Last night on my way home I found #271 at Jamaica with a bunch of freight cars in toe waiting orders.
She's the one with the styalized American flag painted on the side. My grandson was with me, so when we got home I showed him my T-shit with that engine on it, he was un-impressed :-( But he did enjoy the LIRR & subway rides AND wanted to swipe the MC ... can you believe it someone who enjoys swiping ?
My 10 yr old newphew wants to swipe EVERYONE's metrocard when we travel via subway. I even have to buy one for him or I won't hear the end of it.
When my brother and I were kids, we used to argue over who would get to throw the quarter into the toll hopper at each toll booth on the CT Turnpike.
New technology. Same behavior pattern.
Sometimes folks must of discovered a left over CT Turnpike token in their pocket because some ended up in our farebox ... or they thought, ohhh a transportation token, maybe it will get me a bus ride ... NOT
I showed him my T-shit with that engine on it, he was un-impressed
I would have been disgusted and probably confused :-)
MARTA ordered to improve service for disabled riders
Out of the hunderds of times I've ridden on various bus routes, only TWICE have I ever seen the driver make accouncements for the next stop, I just thought they were being friendly for those two times, I never knew they were required to do it. And leaving a handicapped person to wait for the next ramp equipped bus is just wrong, especially if you are waiting for a bus that runs on 20 minute headways or more. Some times on the trains, you never hear any annoucements, usually because the PA system won't be working in that particular car. At least MARTA is complying and not making a big deal about it.
I certainly hope they comply. Train announcements are important for the visually impaired.
...and the lost!
I am a huge proponent of clear, audible, reliable announcements.
Matt
Interesting....are you saying that federal law requires that bus stop announcements be made? I wasn't aware of that. On the vast majority of New York City buses I've ridden, no such announcements were made.
The newer buses in MTA's Long Island Bus division have an automated system that makes bus stop announcements. Does anyone know if there is any plan to implement such a system on the New York City buses?
my understanding of the ADA generated regulations/mandates are announcement of major crossstreets, transfers and major destinations such as hospitals, universities, courthouses.
Of course many of us remember an era when such announcements were more common without prodding. Sadly, now the response of using automated announcing technology although better for clarity also indicaes an inability/unwillingness to train personnel to perform the full task.
Oh crap, I just NOW noticed that the link never posted:
MARTA ordered to improve service for disabled riders
Maybe that'll clear things up and not seem I just went on an out-of-nowhere rant.
Unfourtnately the story of my life I got stuck in the hospital because of my kdney problem hope to be out by Sat but you know doctors and I feel like SH#T. So sorry to you all for getting sick. Be safe Stevie ;(
Steve,
I hope you feel better soon. Best wishes to you.
Health come before RailFaning. Fell better and best of wishes.
Robert
Health first, Guy!!
Sorry to hear it, there's always next year.
I received the October 2002 issue of "The Bulletin" from the New York division of the Electric Railroaders' Association and there appears to be no more R-26/28/29s remaining on the service roster. Is it safe to assume that all of these cars have been removed from service? If so please let me know.
#3 West End Jeff
Read back on the posts. Check the post under Comings and Goings please.
-Stef
I checked the website and officially all of the R-26/28/29s are retired as of October 7, 2002 when they made their last run.
#3 West End Jeff
Not exactly. 12 R-29s are still in service, for the moment at least.
-Stef
Will they still be in service this coming week? Maybe I can be a part of history. Had fate been kinder, I would have ridden on the Triplexes one or two days before they rode off into the sunset in July of 1965.
I wonder. I'd say yes, but who can be sure. The next R-142 train to enter service on the 5 might put a nail in that train's coffin.
-Stef
Hey Stef, yesterday @ 180th Street Station i saw R29 #8695-94 on Track 5 & #8740-41/#8785-84 on Track 4 couldn't see other rustbirds in the yard.
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Although this website "officially" lists the R26/28/29s as being retired as of October 7th. They could still be in service for a little while longer, though likely on a sporadic basis. If Steve B-8AVEXP wants to ride them for the last time, he better do so soon since the remaining R26/28/29s will not be around for much longer.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, it seems like they are all gone from revenue service but a few will stay alive in work service. We're nearing an end to a redbird era. Those cars had true quality and gave good service. Nowadays the quality just isn't there anymore (although R62's dont break down that much). Agree or disagree.
I would agree that the R-62s and the R-62As give good service which is all I care about with a subway car. Though the "Redbirds" gave good service through the end, they were rather worn.
#3 West End Jeff
And the "Redbirds" started service from 1959 and they ran,ran,ran for 40+ years until the metal was eroding, the a/c "vanished" etc. but still didn't lose the speed. Too bad they didn't use stainless steel. That's a true "subway warrior".
That would be an R-32.
The "Redbirds" were one of the truly great subway warriors. They went through it all during their carrers. They were mistreated along with the other equipment during the 1970s, rebuilt during the 1980s and early 1990s, and they lasted through the 1990s into the early 2000s. They are extrordinary cars, but it is now time to say farewell to the "Redbirds".
Perhaps the other great subway warriors will be the R-32s "Brightliners". These all stainless steel cars are expected to perhaps remain in service beyond 2010. Even the R-38/40/40M/42s will not make it that far. The R-32s might even outlive the R-44s. They could outlive (bite your tongue) the R-68s.
#3 West End Jeff
The R-32s may challenge the longevity record held by the Gibbs Hi-Vs for subway car service.
They've got a better chance than Bobby Bond's shot as the all time home run leader.
Bonds needs something like 142 more home runs to pass Hank Aaron. He might do it as long as he doesn't run out of steam the way his godfather did. Don't get me wrong; I loved Willie Mays, but it was painful to watch him by the time he joined the Mets. He had nothing left. He just plain hung around too long.
Barring disaster, Bonds will surely pass Mays on the all-time home run list.
Yep, stainless steel was (is) the only way to go. It may cost more but the extra investment pays for itself, and then some, as the decades roll by. If the TA had any common sense about exterior composition back then (the mid-late fifties) it's possible even the R-27's would still be around. It turns out that the second world war fueled technology boom really helped produce a superior subway car (four motors, dynamic breaking etc), in terms of longevity, durability and speed.
You just described the R-10s to a T.
You just described the R-10s to a T. Oops, make that to an A.:)
Redbirds have to go...bottom line. They're rotted away. Yes they're reliable cars but I think 38-43 years is a lot of time to be on the road. Also all of these cars were supposed to be off of the road by the beginning of 2000. That did not happen thanks to the Bombardier fiasco with the R142. Y'all got 2-3 extra years of Redbird service.
It looks like some Redbirds will probably get saved for storage, work service and perhaps a museum train. Maybe those are some of the reasons why those cars are at Unionport? I am not sure.
So not all of them are going into the water but most of them are. Just make sure that you have your Kodak Moments of them in service.
#9527 7 Flushing Local
Runners are almost all R33s. A few married pairs I canned came back....8874/8875 which I did observe in work train service was brought back for RTO inspection and place back in revenue. Hard to see from a distance if 207th has two tracks of 'DeadBirds' but no Weeks barge is docked. The #2 line has completely eliminated Redbirds from normal RTO service and what was left entered #5....nasty, dirty trainsets witha myriad of problems caused by age and 'flagging.' CI Peter
If the #2 line has completely eliminated Redbrids now? than how come i saw least 2 trainsset Redbrids running on #2 around 12pm while i was working @ 149th Street G.C Lower Lever.
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
WHAT??? The 2 hasn't run any Redbirds since early August. Are you sure they weren't 5's?
He's right. There was at least one trainset in service on the 2 today.
-Stef
OMG. If anyone sees another set tomorrow morning (or any other day, for that matter), please speak up ASAP. I wasn't planning on going anywhere by subway tomorrow, but I haven't had a ride on the Grand Redbird Express from 96th to Chambers in 13 months.
Might be a spur of the moment thing. Perhaps a 142 trainset wasn't available for service, so a #5 set was borrowed.
-Stef
I thought the 2 wasn't even supposed to borrow Redbirds anymore -- it's supposed to borrow R-62A's from the 3.
I was planning on going to the library today, and that would have entailed riding the subway. Instead I didn't venture beyond walking distance of home. I'm kicking myself. I could have been on that train. (Of course, then I would have never made it to the library.)
I've seen quite recently Redbirds (R-29s) running on the #4, and yes there has been a trainset of Redbirds running out on the #2. Just like one I think. Today I saw a fresh batch of Redbirds sitting on the east side of 207th Street yard awaiting either a scrapper or a trip to the ocean bottom, interiors components stripped out completely. They were in the company of a train of R-42s (in "M" line signage) and hidden in the mix was the R-110B.
I saw one in service this afternoon @ 72nd St around 5:40 PM as I was headed home from work. I didn't get on because it was waaaayyy too crowded. The next 2 that came behind it, wasn't. But yes, there it was, a train of R33s on the 2. But it had to have come from the 5, because all the inner bulkheads were set to 5.
Maybe I'll get lucky and ride on it next week.
See how popular Redbirds are on the 2? This one was so popular you couldn't even get on.
Come on, everyone. You should know by now that if there's one thing I miss, it's Redbirds on the express from 96th to Chambers. Don't hold this from me until it's too late!
In NYC, your main airport has poor transit access, and your main train station had its beautiful surface building demolished so that it only exists below ground. Railfans surely regret these things.
Now, rail access to the airport is being constructed belatedly, and another beautiful building is going to be adapted to provide access to the train station.
And what happens? You all complain! What's with you people? You are supposed to be railfans!
Fytton from England.
New Yrkers have a proud tradition of whining.
They also have another proud tradition. Each New Yorker thinks his/her idea is best, and if you disagree, you can shut up because no one is interested in your opinion. If you persist, I'll sue you in court and get an injunction! Don't like that? Get your own injunction!
This is how we approach transit problems. It is fortunate that on occasion, the PA and MTA can plow through this and actually get something done.
Well, you're right of course but I think we all agree that the train to JFK could have been implemented in a much more useful manner. I don't think we as railfans are complaining that they are building a new line, but that there was so much opportunity squandered when they settled on the current design.
"I think we all agree that the train to JFK could have been implemented in a much more useful manner. "
Only if you turn the clock back to when the Rockaway Branch was still in use. If, following the A train's use of the trestle across to the Peninsula, the LIRR Rockaway Branch had been rebuilt to serve Ozone Park and the Airport AND MTA had completed an East-Side Access type project back in the 1960's or early 1970's (mandatory), and MTA used subway cars which could easily move around the JFK terminal area and not screw up A train service to the Rockaways, then...
How many more "ifs" do you want?
Otherwise, if you are talking about the situation that has existed since the early 1980's, then no one has been able to come up with a do-able plan that is any more convenient than AirTrain. I do regret that AirTrain cannot be extended directly to Manhattan on its own now (due to $$$$). But other alternatives which have been studied are simply not achievable.
You listed too many ifs.
All it would have taken was a Port Authority willing to cooperate with the rest of the region. The A train already runs cars the same dimensions as the AirTrain cars. I'm sure you've seen the numerous suggestions here of how A service could be reorganized, and any of them would accomodate an additional JFK branch.
You listed too many ifs.
All it would have taken was a Port Authority willing to cooperate with the rest of the region. The A train already runs cars the same dimensions as the AirTrain cars. I'm sure you've seen the numerous suggestions here of how A service could be reorganized, and any of them would accomodate an additional JFK branch.
Remember, though, the restrictions on use of PFC funding.
So build it as a separate line compatible with the subway and run it that way for a few years. Then connect it with the subway.
That's the same trick NJDOT (and others?) have used: use dedicated funding to build new HOV lanes, and then a few years later convert them into general traffic lanes.
Or find a different funding source -- maybe something like the PFC that uses a different name.
For that to happen, the AirTrain will have to bomb over a period of several years, to the point where PANYNJ is losing a bunch of money on it, has few riders and no hope of ever reclaiming the cost of investment and operation.
With the $5 charge at Howard Beach, I can actually see a secnario where subway riders with not that much luggage bound for JFK and/or people who work at the airport abandoning the AirTrain transfer for the cheaper Lefferts/Q-10 bus option. However, with the LIRR connection at Jamaica, because it's a completely new service and not one replacing the existing (if slow) shuttle bus, it might do a better job of attacting new customers.
If not, and the line becomes a black hole of debt, then a decade or so from now, you might hear calls to hook up the A train to JFK from Howard Beach, and the E, J or some new route to the airport from the Jamaica area (timing the move to the R-160s arrival wouldn't be a bad idea, since any conversion of the AirTrain to subway use would render the line(s) that uses it as adverse to 75-foot cars as the Eastern Division is today).
Radiuses don't affect a 75-footers. It is how much space there is around the track. Simply have the wall stickout a 1' or 2' more. But that is besides the weight issue.
"All it would have taken was a Port Authority willing to cooperate with the rest of the region."
(I'm posting this for the hundredth time - why didn't you read it the first 99 times) The MTA did not need the PA's permission to extend the A train into the airport (or rather, it already had a ROW and had the right to use it). MTA chose not to for reasons having nothing to do with the PA.
Your condemnation of the PA's attitude is based on what? rumor? innuendo? The silly anti-PA bias often expressed on this website? Come on Dave, you know better than that.
"The A train already runs cars the same dimensions as the AirTrain cars."
That doesn't mean they share AirTrain's performance characteristics.
"I'm sure you've seen the numerous suggestions here of how A service could be reorganized, and any of them would accomodate an additional JFK branch. "
And MTA chose not to do it. I'm sure you read, over and over again, the reasons why.
So stop babbling on about A service into the airport and mover on to something else.
:0)
I've heard of this ROW of the MTA's only from your posts. I'm sure you understand my skepticism.
What "performance characteristics" are you referring to? Right now, the AirTrain is best known for having derailed.
"I've heard of this ROW of the MTA's only from your posts. I'm sure you understand my skepticism"
Only because you never bothered to look that up yourself. Why not write to the MTA and the PA and ask? They would happily tell you.
If I am completely wrong, you could post it here and prove it.
PS - I did ask. That's why I found out.
Well,I'm asking too,but IM asking you. WHY didn't they use the ROW? Let just say,my danders up about it......
Because you're basing your argument on this claim. It's up to you to back it up.
If you tell us something about it (where it is, what it looks like, what condition it's in), I'll keep my eyes open the next time I ride the A train. I assume it's visible from the A train -- otherwise it's unlikely to be of much practical use.
It could be a "paper" ROW, which is similar to an easement, in which they have/had the right to the "one track" ROW to the airport. It doesn't mean there is any physical evidence, just on paper. That's what I am assuming it is, if it does in fact exist.
In which case it wouldn't be worth much. Especially if it's only wide enough for one track.
With one track it could only shuttle back and forth. Which would not be ideal service, as you could not get a one seat ride with that, as the shuttle would have to go back and forth between the airport and Howard Beach. Thru service could not be done. People would still have to get off at HB. If this "ROW" exists, it's really dumb that they only alowed for a ROW of only one track wide.
"People would still have to get off at HB. If this "ROW" exists, it's really dumb that they only alowed for a ROW of only one track wide."
No they wouldn't. A switch connects the main A line to the JFK track, the train runs on that track to the airport; loops around or shuttles back, then merges via switch onto the Manhattan-bound main line. What's the big deal?
How long have you been posting here and looking at track diagrams?
"In which case it wouldn't be worth much. Especially if it's only wide enough for one track."
Nonsense. One possibility: The JFK bound train leaves Howard Beach on the JFK one-track spur, makes a loop around the airport or a loop around the area it is designated to, then follows the loop, merging back onto the one track, and then merges back onto the Manhattan-bound A line.
The timing is too sensitive. Let's say the train leaving the airport gets delayed a few minutes at one of the terminals. By the time it reaches the single-track spur, the next train to the airport is already on it. Now our train has to wait a few more minutes for the track to clear. By the time it's back on the mainline, it's way behind schedule, messing up service on the entire line.
Nothing on the subway is single-tracked in regular service. When GO's force single-tracking, the result is usually very inconvenient. When only one track on the Williamsburg Bridge is open, J service is cancelled and the M runs at 24-minute headways (normally, each line runs at 10-minute headways or so). When only one track on part of the New Lots line is open, the 4 is cut back to Atlantic, the 3 is cut back to Utica, and a shuttle runs between Utica and New Lots at 20-minute headways.
Unless the single-tracked section is very, very short, it's of little practical value.
"The timing is too sensitive. Let's say the train leaving the airport gets delayed a few minutes at one of the terminals. By the time it reaches the single-track spur, the next train to the airport is already on it. Now our train has to wait a few more minutes for the track to clear. By the time it's back on the mainline, it's way behind schedule, messing up service on the entire line."
Agreed, there are some limitations to this design. You've described them nicely.
"Nothing on the subway is single-tracked in regular service"
Except the Franklin Shuttle, which isn't really relevant to this discussion.
"Unless the single-tracked section is very, very short, it's of little practical value. "
Now do you understand why MTA would decline to extend the A train into the airport?
I listed other reasons in previous posts; you did a great job here.
Maybe you've forgotten. My proposal was for a joint PA-TA service (imagine that!) on the structure currently being prepared for AirTrain use -- not on a ratty one-track ROW that may or may not exist.
Joint TA-PA service? What world is this you live in?!?!?!
A fantasy world, obviously. One where he is solely in charge of creating and resolving or ignoring political and organizational conflicts and assigning blame.
Iwish I could do that:0)
Exactly. What's best for the public is sometimes impossible when stubborn agencies are involved.
I haven't forgotten. But your proposal was never considered by the MTA, or if it was, the MTA rejected it.
AirTrain now sits over that ROW at Howard Beach. The ROW (not useable anymore, obviously) extended two miles in (but I don't know where it went after that).
Not that I agree with the idea of bringing the subway into JFK and having it serve as a circulator, but this discussion of the single track wide ROW seems strange to me.
Assuming the ROW exists, of course, couldn't two tracks just be stacked on top of one another?
CG
Yes, they could. I hadn't thought of that.
That would address the limitations that David Greenberger points out about one-track ROW.
It is 2 tracks at the narrowest. go look at it where yellowstone blvd crosses under it. Thats where it is the narrowest. I've looked at it in person and walked along it
"Because you're basing your argument on this claim. It's up to you to back it up. "
I did back it up. My sources are thev public affairs office of the Port Authority and the MTA. I asked them. You can too.
You're being hypocritical here. By your own account posted on this site, you spent two hours waiting at a subway station for an R32 consist to pass by you. Now, if that makes you happy, great. But if you had spent 90 minutes doing that and 30 minutes writing a letter to MTA about JFK service, you would have received a letter back from them with information in it. You might be skeptical about what they tell you (it's your right to be), but at least you would know what that position is. You condemn the PA but provide no evidence whatsoever to back up that accusation.
So if you have two hours to spend noting the serial numbers of subway cars down as they pass you, why don't you have enough time to match the homework I do before I post?
Because it's your claim. Tell me where I can find this ROW or give me any other information about it -- or drop it.
They won't tell you due to security issues.
"They won't tell you due to security issues. "
Only if you call them, because of your name. Have one of us call and we'll slip a note under your door when nobody's looking.
I agree that I do not mind that the current AirTrain project is being built. But I feel the real mistake was made when they abandoned the LIRR service to what was to become JFK. Of course in the 50's when it happened, air service wasn't what it is today. But there was a one seat ride right to the "airport" (or what was to become JFK until the 50's right from Penn Station and Flatbush via the LIRR Rockaway Branch. The subway could have run exactly like it does now on the outer tracks of the line, with the LIRR running right down the middle of the line and to JFK, without ever crossing each other's paths (with some engineering) or sharing tracks. The LIRR would have been a faster route than the subway, but at least both options would have been in place since the early 60's and running directly to Kennedy all these years. And now if they felt the need for the current AirTrain service connecting the terminals and Jamaica, etc, so be it, and it would be a third rail connection to the airport.
>>>... and another beautiful building is going to be adapted to provide access to the train station. <<<
While this may be a nice idea, nostalgia wise, I feel it is not needed. The money that is to be spent on this can be put to better use in other areas of transit at this time. Such as, keeping the fare hike down.
Peace,
ANDEE
"While this may be a nice idea, nostalgia wise, I feel it is not needed. The money that is to be spent on this can be put to better use in other areas of transit at this time. Such as, keeping the fare hike down. "
The money involved is a capital appropriation, not an operating subsidy. Bersides, experience has shown that the diversion of one-time capital appropriations to subsidize operating expenses is counterproductive and foolish. Remember the "Beame Shuffle?"
>>>Remember the "Beame Shuffle?<<<
No, I don't. Please elaborate.
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember the "Beame Shuffle?
No, I don't. Please elaborate.
During the city's fiscal crisis of the early 1970's, then-Mayor Beame took funds that had been earmarked for construction of the Second Avenue subway and diverted them to cover the subway's operating deficit. Use of this dubious but legal manoever made it possible to defer an unavoidable but politically unpopular 5-cent fare increase for a while. That helped Beame avoid having to take criticism for the fare hike, although it wasn't enough to get him a second term in office. Unfortunately, by using the earmarked funds for operating purposes, the city lost the ability to get far greater amounts of federal funding, as Washington in effect required the city to put up some money of its own as a condition of getting the federal money. As a result, there was no money for building the Second Avenue line.
Nicely put, Peter. People may forever argue over minor details, but you hit the main story dead-on. Thank you.
I agree. If the federal money is not used on NY's new "Penn Station", it might get diverted somewhere else - like another state. Or, Using it to hold down the fare might be good in the short run, but not in the long run. The fare will go up eventually anyway, and then you still have a crappy Penn Station also - Just like the short term goals may have been met by taking away from the 2 Ave subway in the 70's. And now look - no 2nd Ave subway. There is nothing to show for in the diverted funds in the 70's form the 2 Ave subway.
If the federal government is funding money for the project, NY might as well take it, if they don't someone will anyway.
Disagree. Current Penn Station is not only ugly, but dysfunctional -- a pain to navigate for all passengers, not just claustrophobic ones. The Farley rehab is a good investment and arguably quite necessary to improve crowding conditions, at least. Not all transit dollars should go to Operations. There are other transit-related infrastructure improvements which are just as needed and valid. Now, if only the appropriators would be more specific in their allocation of funding...
I seriously disagree... fare hikes will happen, it's a certainty. Let them happen and people will be happier if they get some bang for their bucks (like anew station). Sure they'll gripe, but the alternative is they pay the hike later, only then it's to cover debts... no visible improvements or results.
very valid point! increase the fare a nickel every 5-9 years and slowly.
I am a railfan, but in my opinion wasting money on ill-conceived rail projects only leads to the inability to garner support for viable rail projects down the road.
Spending big $$ on Farley, to only have it be mainly empty (only 23,000 passengers per day use Amtrak NY Penn -- and many of those will apparently still board from the current Amtrak area) will only lead to a refusal to provide funds for some other necessary project.
(What? You want to build two more tunnels under the Hudson? But we just spent millions on that Post Office station and it's always empty.)
As to the JFK Airtrain, I expect it to be very successful.
CG
another beautiful building is going to be adapted to provide access to the train station.
Which beautiful building?
Which beautiful building?
The Farley building can be made into a beautiful building. It needs work, and has been neglected also, but underneath is a beautiful building. Hey, even the old Penn station looked like sh*t in the 60's, but underneath was a spectacular building that could have been beautifully restored. Look at Grand Central. It's beautiful now, but I remember it being very grungy and run down before the renovation also.
Are there any color photos of GCT before the remodel?
I couldn't agree more. I really don't see a problem with having a "new Penn Station". It was a terrible mistake that the real one was torn down to begin with. That is what they are trying to correct with the Farley Project. In any city you need buildings that give a sense of place. That is what a new Penn station will serve. Isn't it embarassing that the main gateway station to one of the greatest cities in the world has it's passengers enter the city through a "basement"? Sure New York still has Grand Central, and luckily it is still there, but that has become only a commuter station. It no longer serves long distance trains. I love Grand Central, and would have hated if it was torn down before I was born, like Penn Station and never had the opportunity to walk through it, but I do feel if one of them had to be destroyed, the wrong one is gone. Penn was a more impressive building (and don't get me wrong, GC is quite impressive also), and that is actually the one that currently is the "gateway" station to New York. Of course so was GC until about 10 years ago, but the truth is it no longer is.
GC was better than Penn my parents and grandparents tell me. Also that wroght iron in Penn looked god-awful.
GC was better than Penn my parents and grandparents tell me. Also that wroght iron in Penn looked god-awful.
I don't know about that. Of course I never set foot in the old Penn Station, but most of what I read on it stated that Penn Station was a far superior building. Your grandparents remarks could be based on what Penn station looked like in it's final days in the late 50's and early 60's. I have seen many photos of Penn and if you look at photos from the early part of the century and compare them to the same angles of photos taken in the early 60's, Penn station really looked grungy, and was in a sorry state of disrepair. Penn Station at the end of it's life was filthy and in terrible need of repair. IF Penn was restored, that "god-awful" iron and glass concourse would have been spectacular, and the stations ugly gray exterior was actually pink granite.
>>> most of what I read on it stated that Penn Station was a far superior building <<<
Personally I preferred Grand Central, but each was a great specimen of architecture, although slightly different than each other. It is like trying to rate the Chrysler Building and Empire State Building. Both are beautiful skyscrapers with slightly different architectural features.
Tom
I agree with that. DOn't get me wrong, I do like Grand Central also, and would be just as upset if GC was torn down down. Your analogy to the ESB and Chrysler Building is a good one - both built around the same time as each other by competing companies (By "competing" I mean that at the time the builders both were trying to go for the tallest in the world.)
But to try to say that Penn Station was ugly compared to GC by only be thinking of it in it's final years is inaccurate. I'm sure it was ugly at the end because nothing was done to keep it looking good. From what I understand between the low maintenence and dirt, the glass and steel concourse was a dirty and leaky mess, and a huge "space aged" ticket counter was placed right in the Grand Waiting Room! It's easyt to say Penn was ugly next to Grand central, especially when thinking of what Grand Central looks like now, after it's glorious renovation. But poor Grand Central went through it's hard times and ugliness also, which tankfully has been corrected.
Sorry about some of the typos in the above post - it's early yet - I still need my coffee......
I was comparing the the old pictures of it. From before it opened to the public. And putting stairways to the tracks in the mezzanine doesn't look right.
But poor Grand Central went through it's hard times and ugliness also, which tankfully has been corrected.
Grand Central at its nadir in the early 1970's probably was worse than the old Penn Station ever was.
Grand Central at its nadir in the early 1970's probably was worse than the old Penn Station ever was.
Yes, it was. I remember both Penn and GCT from the same time period (early '60s, right before the real Penn Station was torn down) and even then, for all the neglect that Penn suffered, Grand Central was worse. Architecturally, they were different styles; GCT was meant to be "elegant" and "refined" while Penn was meant to be "powerful" and "classic", and both succeeded in their design intent. I travelled through both... we lived in Poughkeepsie at the time and would take NYC to GCT and change for the Pennsy to Chicago (Mother much preferred the Broadway to the 20th Century, even though we could have boarded the latter at Poughkeepsie; we did ride it a couple of times though) and then a North Shore Electroliner to Milwaukee. And Pennsylvania Station was my favorite of the two by far.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grand Central at its nadir in the early 1970's probably was worse than the old Penn Station ever was.
Yes, it was. I remember both Penn and GCT from the same time period (early '60s, right before the real Penn Station was torn down) and even then, for all the neglect that Penn suffered, Grand Central was worse.
I remember being in GCT as a child, sometime in the late 1960's. My parents and I had gone to Florida, and our return flight was diverted to EWR from BDL due to wintry weather. We got a taxi to GCT and then had to wait there for a few hours in the middle of the night to get a train back to Connecticut. It was a horrible place, filthy dirty with skells sprawled everywhere and an unspeakable smell. Every telephone booth (back then the booths had doors and everything) was occupied by a sleeping skell - my father had to boot one out in order to make a call. The terminal was kept quite cold, probably not much over 50 degrees, but as it was a bitterly cold night outside the skells didn't mind.
Not long afterward, GCT began closing down during the overnight hours. Small wonder.
Skeels are hobos right?
Is GCT heated nowadays?
Couldn't NYPD kick the hobos out?
Howcome MNRR can't provide late night service (1 am to 5 am)?
Skeels are hobos right?
Is GCT heated nowadays?
Couldn't NYPD kick the hobos out?
Howcome MNRR can't provide late night service (1 am to 5 am)?
Yes.
Yes.
Too busy eating donuts.
Dunno.
"Howcome MNRR can't provide late night service (1 am to 5 am)?"
Because to do so they'd have to keep GCT open all night. That would make it much harder to evict the homeless, and would cost a bundle in police presence. The cost would be (and was, when they did it) much more than the revenue from the few hundred (dozen?) people who would take the trains.
I don't recall MNRR and its predecessors ever having much late night service. I seem to remember a 1:30, 2:30 and 5:00 train to WP and Stamford, but nothing in between.
It comes down to two questions:
1. Even if this project does not subtract a penny from any other transit project, is it worthwhile? It is a grand esthetic statement, but will make very little practical improvement, given that the new NJT concourse has reduced crowding.
2. Do we really believe that this money won't be subtracted from NYC sooner or later?
Probably in 2025, when 8th and 9th Aves are as heavily developed as 7th Ave and east are now, the new station will be a real center for travelers and shoppers. And everyone will say, thank goodness they made that uneconomical decision back in 2002. But meanwhile many of us are concerned that we will pay for this by the loss of more critical transit improvements.
As a life-long railfan, I only here complain about how the higher-ups in the MTA and the state government(I never again will call them geniuses!!) let good ideas on how to get our trains to serve the area airports, primarily JFK, go to waste and go ahead with screwy, train-to-nowhere plans like the Air Train, especially when previous plans would have cost less money, would have been one seat rides to Manhattan, not to mention the riding public would benefit from them, unlike the Air Train, in which the area it runs through in no way benefits from it. I complain when MTA and the state blows our tax money on wasteful rail plans instead of plans that make travelling by rail in the metro area better.
unlike the Air Train, in which the area it runs through in no way benefits from it.
That's the problem I have with the AirTrain project. If the LIRR or subway connection existed, in addition to the new Airtrain, at least there would be an option for the people in between. But hey, at least Airtrain is something, better than no Airtrain or any other options.
"unlike the Air Train, in which the area it runs through in no way benefits from it. "
False statement. A very common misconception that is oft-repeated despite being demonstrably false.
AirTrain provided a lot of local employment (including set-asides which gave local minority firms hundreds of millions in business), street beautification and a relief valve for Van Wyck traffic. It improves property values around Jamaica Station, and provides everyonbe who has access to Jamaica Station with access to the airport.
"especially when previous plans would have cost less money, would have been one seat rides to Manhattan, not to mention the riding public would benefit from them"
Previous plans were:
a)some purely fictional
b)unworkable, physically or politically
c) Had nothing to do with a one seat ride
d) A few written by people who wouldn't know mass transit from Disneyland
d) Would have cost 2-3X as much as AirTrain.
AirTrain provided a lot of local employment (including set-asides which gave local minority firms hundreds of millions in business), street beautification
All true, but "providED" is a key word there, once the train is running that is over.
It improves property values around Jamaica Station, and provides everyonbe who has access to Jamaica Station with access to the airport.
Also very true, but still does no good to the people in between, or don't have access to Jamaica. AirTrain will be a good service, and will be very used and a much needed addition to the transit infastructure, but something more is still needed for some more localized service in the future, which some of the other plans (fantasy or non-fantasy) do address.
"All true, but "providED" is a key word there, once the train is running that is over."
Not entirely true. Permanent jobs were also created, and the firms which participated in AirTrain's construction gained valuable experience on a large project, enabling them to bid on other projects and claim that relevant experience.
"Also very true, but still does no good to the people in between, or don't have access to Jamaica."
True from a transit standpoint. But it also did them no harm, other than a minor inconvenience during construction.
"AirTrain will be a good service, and will be very used and a much needed addition to the transit infastructure, but something more is still needed for some more localized service in the future, which some of the other plans (fantasy or non-fantasy) do address."
I agree. Extend the A train along Liberty Av, extend the E to Rosedale, extend the J further into Jamaica, provide better bus service in South Ozone Park, including a Van Wyck bus which would come off the expressway a few times to serve bus stations along the way (there is a Van Wyck bus now, but service is inadequate).
>>>Extend the A train along Liberty Av, extend the E to Rosedale, extend the J
further into Jamaica, provide better bus service in South Ozone Park, including a Van
Wyck bus which would come off the expressway a few times to serve bus stations along
the way (there is a Van Wyck bus now, but service is inadequate). <<<
Would area residents support extending lines to those areas? Remember, Auburndalers and Baysiders have always hooted down ideas of extending the #7 there, and Glendalers have put down any thoughts of making the old Montauk LIRR line a transit line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Auburndalers and Baysiders have always hooted down ideas of extending the #7 there"
A few of them, never a majority. Of course they always seem to be the loudmouths...
People in SE Queens are more mass-transit dependent and less likely to own cars than in NE Queens. More bus service on the Van Wyck would be welcomed, and I don't see a significant problem with NIMBY in extending the A past Lefferts (but I stress that I envision subway service, not L service, on the Lefferts branch. The train should dive into a tunnel as soon as the Rockaway branch diverges from it).
Extending the J further in a commercial area would help continue the revitalization of Jamaica-this is a business district, again, not much NIMBY to worry about.
The E to Rosedale might get some NIMBY. And we can't use LIRR ROW.
Hey, it's a wish list, you know? :0)
Hey, it's a wish list, you know? :0)
"It's [your] railbuff fantasy, that's all."
For someone whose posts are usually calm and well-reasoned, not to mention informative and interesting, you really do seem to get your knickers in a knot over any mention of the Airtrain route choice. Even given the history and all of the barriers to realizing such an idea, JFK access via the disused LIRR branch is no more unreasonable than most of the ideas for subway expansion that are posted on this board. One suspects that you were personally involved in the fight and some of the bruises have yet to heal.
not to mention the riding public would benefit from them, unlike the Air Train, in which the area it runs through in no way benefits from it.
The Port Authority (not the MTA) used PFC funds (not taxes, although you could claim they're close enough) to build AirTrain. It was illegal for them to serve the area it runs through.
AirTrain is far from perfect, but at least it's (almost) built. Relying on non-PFC money and designing a more ideal line would probably have doomed the project to be yet another proposal stuck on the drawing board with no funds to build it.
"The Port Authority (not the MTA) used PFC funds (not taxes, although you could claim they're close enough) to build AirTrain. It was illegal for them to serve the area it runs through. "
Well, not quite. The PA could have used some funds for an intermediate station on the grounds, say, that that airport employees would use it. There were articles about the PA's ability to contribute $100 million to East Side access on regional development grounds.
But the system isn't really designed for this and it's not clear how much benefit a station half way up the Van Wyck would accomplish. If AirTrain is ultimately extended further, however, one could see adding a station in Ozone Park as a benefit. (Let's see if the NIMBYS come out for that).
The PA could have used some funds for an intermediate station on the grounds, say, that that airport employees would use it. There were articles about the PA's ability to contribute $100 million to East Side access on regional development grounds.
The PA contributes to lots of other transit projects around NYC, but not using PFC money (well, except for AirTrain Newark). I think it would have been possible to build an intermediate station as long as you could ensure that the only possible use of the station was for people going to/from the airport. So if you built something halfway between JFK and Jamaica, you'd have to specifically prohibit anyone from getting off there if they got on at Jamaica, and likewise anyone boarding there must go to the airport. That's a pretty limited benefit! I interpreted the previous poster's "doesn't benefit areas along the line" as meaning they get no general mass transit benefit (as you could have if AirTrain had been built as a subway or LIRR extension), but any PFC-funded line cannot have a general benefit by definition.
You're right. My post was really quite a stretch.
You'd be barkin' too if you had to stand and
listen to some of these religious preachabees
we have on most our express runs... it gets
to your earwax after awhile.... ;)
In England, tis' pretty certain the only thing
you have to mind is the GAP... welcome to NY!!
in true NYer style I must say this: "shut up".
the air train is a pathetic political joke that goes nowhere and serves no one, except maybe people from the suburbs, and I'll believe that they'll succeed in transforming the farley building only after it's done.
Complaining and treating other people like dirt is every new yorkers god given right.
Sign, mindset for railfanning and pro-transit has changed ever since Politics came into the picture. Take into the fact that New Yorkers all like to whine at everything, nothing gets done without some group bitching at it.
I guess I'm just not much of a railfan.
I'm more of a pragmatist. Transportation facilities exist to move people.
What's wrong with JFK? Since it's not reachable by subway, it's hard to travel between JFK and the rest of the city. Will AirTrain make it easier to travel between JFK and the rest of the city? Barely, and at an outrageous fare. (AirTrain will do away entirely with the slow but free shuttle bus from Howard Beach. How much time will the train save, ten minutes? To many New Yorkers, ten minutes isn't worth $5 -- but they're being denied a choice.) Is AirTrain the only way it could have happened? No, with a bit of cooperation the subway itself could have served JFK directly.
What's wrong with Penn Station? It's ugly, and some more track capacity would be useful, but the station itself is fine on the pragmatic level. Will the Farley plan improve the pragmatics? No, but it will make foot, bus, cab, train, and subway connections to nearly all of the rest of the city just a little bit more difficult. It will look nice, and that's worth something, but when push comes to shove, Amtrak is a transportation system, not an art gallery, and transportation needs must come out ahead.
"How much time will the train save, ten minutes?"
I would hope the AirTrain to Howard Beach wil save more than that. The bus was awful last time I tried it. Infrequent and incredibly slow.
And AirTrain to Jamaica should be a massive improvement over Q10 to Kew Gardens, as well as allowing rail connections to Penn and LI.
I only took the bus once. The wait was long but it moved fast once it came, and we were at the subway in a few minutes. Granted, it was mid-morning and we didn't have to make any of the parking lot stops.
How often will the AirTrain Howard Beach branch run? Will schedules be coordinated with the A train?
Just to elaborate, the problems with any bus at JFK are:
- Frequency is not necessarily the greatest.
- They go to lots of terminals, so all it takes is a big traffic mess at one terminal to put it off schedule and cause bunching.
- They go to lots of terminals, which just takes time.
- The Howard Beach bus has a long and winding route through the parking lot in addition to all of the above. The Q10 has an involved route through the streets of Queens to get to the A at Lefferts, and more time to get to other subways.
I personally will be much happier to fly in and out of JFK once the AirTrain is there.
Just to elaborate, the problems with any bus at JFK are:
- Frequency is not necessarily the greatest.
- They go to lots of terminals, so all it takes is a big traffic mess at one terminal to put it off schedule and cause bunching.
- They go to lots of terminals, which just takes time.
- The Howard Beach bus has a long and winding route through the parking lot in addition to all of the above. The Q10 has an involved route through the streets of Queens to get to the A at Lefferts, and more time to get to other subways.
I personally will be much happier to fly in and out of JFK once the AirTrain is there.
My last experience with the long-term parking shuttle bus was REPULSIVE. It was late on the evening of August 18th, as we arrived at JFK from PHX. It took almost a half hour for the next bus to arrive, and it was crowded, filthy, and stank of diesel fuel. On the trip to the parking lot, the driver pulled over to the side of the road and chatted, of all god-damned things, with another driver for several minutes.
I only hope that the shuttle bus drivers are fired once AirTrain starts.
That sums up CTTransit!
I take it that you have never ridden the bus. It is awful. I would gladly pay a few $$$ for a train instead. When you have paid hundreds of $$$ for an air fare, a train ride costing the equivalent of a couple of slices of pizza is nothing.
Simon
Swindon UK
I'm glad you'd pay for it, but some others would prefer the inexpensive option.
There have been (unrelated) proposals here to straighten out the Crescent Street curves on the J/Z line to improve service. Say the TA went ahead and replaced the old el with a new, arrow-straight one -- and imposed a $5 surcharge. Passengers would be rightfully outraged, would they not?
To an airline passenger going on vacation, $5 is nothing. But to an airline passenger who spent hours searching for the lowest price possible because he had to get to New York for whatever reason but couldn't really afford it, $5 is a lot. It's also a lot for airline employees, for non-passengers going to the airport to see off friends and relatives, and for anyone conducting any other sort of business at the airport.
It brings back the worst of pre-Unification days, with transfers and additional fares.
It raises a disturbing question: should our transit system base its fare at each station on an assumption of how rich its users are? Maybe we should charge $5 to board at Lincoln Center, Yankee Stadium, and Penn Station. Once we permit a surcharge at one station, we must ask this question.
It's great that JFK is getting the equivalent of the Heathrow Express -- the line to Jamaica -- but where's our Picadilly line?
By the way, the fare from Heathrow to Central London on the Tube is 3.60 pounds (=$5.63). Only slightly cheaper than AirTrain plus subway will be (probably $7 if the subway is $2 by then). And in addition, incomes are lower in Britain.
Also, the express to Paddington is 12 pounds, and then you still probably need the Tube. That's considerably more costly than AirTrain to Jamaica plus LIRR (though quicker too).
But the Tube has a zone-based fare system overall, and the £3.60 fare fits into it. Aside from the formidable logistical difficulties, I'd have no objection to a zone-based fare system here, by which the fare from JFK to Manhattan would be greater than the fare from downtown Brooklyn to Manhattan. Right now, though, we charge a flat fare per ride, including an intermodal transfer. JFK should be integrated into the subway system both in service and in fare.
JFK should be integrated into the subway system both in service and in fare.
I agree with that. While I don't feel the Airtrain is a total failure, as it will serve it's purpose, that doesn't mean direct subway access shouldn't have been done.
Personally I feel the Airtain should have been built from Jamaica to the Airport and the connection of the terminals, but the Howard Beach spur should have been built as a continuation of branch from the A line at Howard Beach instead. Much of the infastructure is there unused on the A line. A new line could run somewhat like the JFK Express as an express and use the center track express towards the airport on the Libery el and Rockaway Branch all times (and all times local on the Manhattan bound side), and break off at Howard Beach taking the route of the current Air Train and terminating at the "terminal Airtrain".
So I guess the problem is that politics did get in the way. The funding has stipulations stating it can't run "local" service, thus I guess the Howard Beach segment had to be built the way it was vs. as a thru subway connection?
"So I guess the problem is that politics did get in the way."
Yes, though you should know, if you've been paying attention to current subway service patterns and reading these threads that the A train as currently run precludes running a JFK Express like that run in 1976-1990. But adding tracks as you describe would help improve A service.
"The funding has stipulations stating it can't run "local" service, thus I guess the Howard Beach segment had to be built the way it was vs. as a thru subway connection?"
Not relevant to the A train. The MTA had a one-track ROW and could have extended the A train into the airport and chose not to.
The MTA had a one-track ROW and could have extended the A train into the airport and chose not to.
That's right! I forgot all about that!
It's great that JFK is getting the equivalent of the Heathrow Express -- the line to Jamaica -- but where's our Picadilly line?
As the old adage goes, half a loaf is better than none.
Leave the free shuttle bus in place and your adage will be apt.
Incidentally, I know you don't like the shuttle bus -- but don't you think service could be improved if the PA were interested in improving service? Conversely, couldn't the train service be run poorly?
It's called the A train.
The Piccadilly line runs to the airport itself.
The A train is a walking transfer and a $5 fare away from the airport.
Does the Tube cost as much to ride from Heathrow as the Heathrow Express?
>>> It raises a disturbing question: should our transit system base its fare at each station on an assumption of how rich its users are? Maybe we should charge $5 to board at Lincoln Center, Yankee Stadium, and Penn Station. Once we permit a surcharge at one station, we must ask this question <<<
You seem to want to ignore one basic fact. The Airtrain is not part of the New York transit system. It is an airport improvement, designed to make the airport more accessible for those who are using the airport. I too, agree that it would be nice to have direct subway access to both La Guardia and JFK airports, but that is an entirely different thing than the Airtrain, which was designed as it was specifically because the New York transit system failed to adequately service JFK.
Tom
Has Unification taught us anything?
I know AirTrain isn't part of the New York transit system. That's the problem. JFK Airport is a major destination inside New York City, so it should be a part of that transit system. Not only is AirTrain a separate system, it was explicitly designed to be nearly impossible to integrate into the system at a later date.
With the metrocard transfer between bus and subway, you still have your "free" shuttle bus. Except, now it's called the Q10 and it goes to Lefferts Blvd instead of Howard Beach.
Yes, I realize that it isn't quite the same -- you can't get another bus transfer at the other end -- but the effect isn't nearly as drastic as you imply and the service on the Q10 is far superior to that of the PA shuttles.
CG
the service on the Q10 is far superior to that of the PA shuttles.
The service on the Kabul Transit Authority is far superior to that of the PA shuttles.
One benefit of the AirTrain relative to buses that I haven't seen mentioned is that the AirTrain is much closer to the gate, ticket counter, and/or baggage claim, than the buses are, and accessible indoors. Much more conenient with luggage (as well as faster to get to).
Really? I was out at JFK a few months ago, and at least where I was, the circulating roadway (with bus stops) was between the terminal and the AirTrain guideway. Yes, AirTrain will be accessible indoors, which is a plus, but it will be a slightly longer walk.
Maybe my info is out of date. The Q10 used to be way out on an outer loop. And in Newark the Airtrain is cloe in; I haven't seen where it is at JFK.
The trouble with buses is that you can't win. Either they're on the inner roadway and plagued with traffic delays, or they're on the outer roadway and hard to get to with luggage, and also often hard to find unless the signs are really good.
Newark may have one of the best arrangements. The buses are off to the side and pretty much avoid the heaviest traffic, but not a totally miserable walk either.
But even on the outer roadway, or in the Newark arrangement, the traffic can really play havoc with schedules.
This would be politically gutsy, but why not encourage the use of transit by allowing only buses and, yes, cabs on the inner roadway? Drivers (or, rather, those being chauffeured in private vehicles) can carry their luggage across the street.
This would be politically gutsy, but why not encourage the use of transit by allowing only buses and, yes, cabs on the inner roadway? Drivers (or, rather, those being chauffeured in private vehicles) can carry their luggage across the street.
The suit-covered-anus, Alpha-male types will have psycho fits if their limousine drivers can't pull up right in front of the terminals.
Let them have their psycho fits. They won't be blocking the rest of us, since they'll be on their own private outer roadway.
>>> Let them have their psycho fits. They won't be blocking the rest of us, since they'll be on their own private outer roadway. <<<
I thought those attitudes went out with the French revolution. I cannot see any basis for differentiating between a taxicab and a commercial hire car. Both are public transportqtion.
Tom
"I cannot see any basis for differentiating between a taxicab and a commercial hire car. Both are public transportqtion."
Perhaps limousines should be fitted with engines requiring exclusive use of premium, higher-octane, gasoline...
Airtrain will stop inside Terminal 4 (the International terminal). For the other terminals, the stations are pretty much where the bus stops on the access roads are today -- some a bit closer, some a bit further away.
CG
So write a letter and comnplain to the MTA.
You have enough time to post here, and enough time to kill two or three hours watching subway cars pass you on a platform. You have time enough to do a little homework instead of complaining about a political problem you don't seem to know much about.
"I'm more of a pragmatist. Transportation facilities exist to move people."
Your posts betray a different attitude. While you consistently poo-poo transit developments, you only see the merits of your own specific ones. You do the same in the ADA arena.
Your general statements, as above, are correct, but you interpret them through a sufficiently narrow prism, that, if you were an agency head or planner, no one would be able to work with you.
The merits of my own specific whats? My own specific transit developments? I'm afraid I don't have transit developments of my own.
I evaluate what I see. Sometimes my evaluations are positive. Sometimes they're negative. That's to be expected, I hope.
I am forthright about my motives: I am interested in seeing transportation facilities that move people. If I see an (actual or proposed) transportation facility that I think could do a better job of moving people if designed differently, I say so. If I see an (actual or proposed) transportation facility that I think does a very good job of moving people, I say so.
To my mind, ADA is of pragmatic value: it helps move people. As such, it is a very good thing. But sometimes a particular ADA design hurts more than it helps. Like if it makes access to a station much more difficult for those who can use the stairs (including those with certain types of disability). Or if it reduces the capacity of a line beyond an acceptable minimum and forces thousands of others into hazardous settings or off the subway entirely. Or if it consumes resources to such an extent that other proposed capital or operating improvements that would help move even more people are jeopardized.
To you, ADA is a holy grail. That's fine -- you're entitled to your opinions. To me, it's one element of a much broader venture, an element that needs to be evaluated among its peers.
Or if it consumes resources to such an extent that other proposed capital or operating improvements that would help move even more people are jeopardized.
That's the problem I have with ADA sometimes. I'm afraid a lot of projects are put on the back burner - projects that could have been useful to many people - because the ADA requirement would be so involved, that the whole project is scrapped. ADA is a great feature, and when it can be done, it is great that they can make travel better for disabled people. But I feel it's wrong that sometimes the needs of the few, kill many projects that would be beneficial to so many more people because no one can benefit from the potential project if it is scrapped because of a heavy ADA requirement would have been necessary.
We're on the same page.
Didn't we lose public pay restrooms around the city a few years ago over an ADA challenge?
Maybe they should cross them with soccer hooligans for strength.
A railfan was mugged last night right next to my cab as I was operating. I opened my door at one point, everyone was smiles, apologized for the noise and went back to muggging the guy whn I closed up my door.
Which of course now begs the question, did you call it in and run late or did you sit in there cackling? :)
I'd like to know the answer to that too.
There was a cop at Broad and I handed him over to the cop. We were late and I did not want to loase more time.
He was trying to guilt me into a trip into the relay.
What? You handed the railfan over to the cop? Not the mugger? LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe I was hoping it was Salaam.
hahaha
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll bet you would have rolled him through if he'd thought to wear a vest and bring a camera. :)
You obviously do not know me well.
Even if I wanted to there was a TD right there.
I was going to tell him go home you don't have what it takes. He was not even a beanpole. You walk into a school and just look and listen to a few kids and know this guy is not going to have lunch money this semester.
Funny thing about TD's and terminals. :)
Yeah, I think I know you well ENOUGH, that's why I busted them. Feel sorry for the kid just the same. One of these days we gotta hook up - others with the show who have met me can assure you that I'm well behaved on company property. It's when we LEAVE fare control that ya gotta watch out for me. Heh.
If I wanted to hang out with the well behaved, I take my mom out more often.
Hahahahaha ... then I take it you'll be coming up to Branford on Sunday? We'll bring an extra drool cup. :)
You really didn't give a crap about him, did you? It was OK for the mugger to beat him up and rob him, because in your opinion, he obviously deserved it.
Post your train assignments here, so when I come into NY I can avoid riding your train.
Maybe they should cross them with soccer hooligans for strength.
Hmmmmm, as a weight-lifting railfan, I would caution against stereotyping all railfans as weaklings ....
I think you are the exception that proves the rule here.
We got my vic, the kid here that could not drive a spike (I could and gym is a four letter word to me) and one or two other young guys here have back and knee problems. These generation Y and Z people are just a mess.
Yeah yeah physical strength does not equal political strength.
Look pal, before you berate all the subtalk posters, why don't you visit New York one day and take a ride on our subway system. You obviously don't understand why things are the way they are. If you were to research NYC subway history, you would have known that NYCT operated the JFK Express which went to the Howard Beach station where passengers could transfer to a shuttle bus to the terminals.
Furthermore, construction has been completed on the AirTrain, which goes directly to JFK from the LIRR Jamaica station. However, due to a unfortunate accident, the start date has been pushed back. We may not have the best access to the airport, but we're working on it. BTW, would you mind schooling us ingrates as to how Londoners get to Heathrow Airport? I'm sure we would turn green with envy.
I am envious of Heathrow right now.
He used an extremely mild tone. He wasn't in the least berating New Yorkers, just quietly inquiring as to why we are so fickle.
[Now, rail access to the airport is being constructed belatedly, and another beautiful building is going to be adapted to provide access to the train station.]
WE DO NOT have direct rail access to JFK Airport.
Didn't you hear about the MAJOR accident during testing of the JFK AirTrain? I know you're 'across the pond' in England, but even THAT news should've reached you by now...
Couldn't agree with you more.
But this is SUBtalk.
They aren't extending the subway to JFK, so it must be inferior.
They aren't doing anything for the subway with Farley, so it must be a waste of $.
Yeah, maybe if this was AirTrainTalk there wouldn't be so much negativity towards it.
The GPO isn't a rail station and if they do adapt it for Penn it won't be faithful to the original look of the old penn. It won't look real and authentic. I haven't read the thread about the GPO and Penn so I don't know what they are saying in there.
So here's the concept. Take various design elements from various NYC subway cars and combine them into your own Frankenstein's monster of a subway car. Try to chose poor elements, or the elements that clash the most with each other, just make the whole thing look ugly and ridiculous and maybe even unworkable.
Allright. My first idea:
Slant end of the R40, complete with safety bars---but safety bars ONLY on the end cars (see where I'm going here?)
LCD side signs of the R44 and R46.
Dot matrix front and rear signs of the R32 (the one on the R38 is too big and readable, of course!)
Made of carbon steel like the redbirds, painted white like in the early 1980's.
ridges like the R68, but flat like the R32 and R38
75 feet long.
Narrow enough for the IRT (!)
Any other ideas?
:-D Andrew
Two of they have already been tried ...
- the "C" types
- the R-16s
:)
--Mark
They have already tried to give an R-10 (#3192 in 1978, pg.48 "NYC Subway Cars" by James Clifford Greller), an R-42 front face, which needless to say went nowhere, and even tried to re-do R-16 # 6429 at 207th Street Shop (p.67 "NYC Subway Cars") into a (for that time) futuristic subway car, which would look like nothing more than an R-143 with more of an angular instead of rounded-end look, and with a left-front side route letter sign. This one, too, met the scrapper.
I say give the R-68/68As all digital luminator side signs (something that should have did eons ago!!), and employ the scratch-resisting windows much like the R-142/142A/143s to the fleet that is going to be kept around thru when the R-160s finally start rolling. Give the R-46s faster door systems. Now these here are some good ideas that can be employed to the current fleet REALISTICALLY!! Let's be honest, MisterK, the day NYCT comes out with a subway car or rebuilds something that's worth all the money they needlessly throw away, hell will indeed freeze over and the President of the U.S. and Sadaam will be the best of friends and invite eachother over for lunch!! :-)
And not for nothing, look at the face of the R-40 still....uuugh!! Now that alone has always been monsterlike!! Definitely not known for good looks!!
But it's great for small railfans to look out (ie: my kids !!)
LMAO.....MisterK.....I think Bombardier wants to hire you! :-)
Yannow, you COULD actually use Microsoft PAINT
to piece together a graphic of the car you've
created and post for all to see...
It'll prolly come out looking like an r11... but...
not that there's anything wrong with that....!!
You might have trouble running a 75-footer around the IRT.... better drop in some old Triplex-style articulation. If it looks like it's been in continuous use since the Triplexes were in action, so much the better!
You might have trouble running a 75-footer around the IRT
That was the very idea! Y'see, if it's unworkable, more's the better!
:-) Andrew
Don't forget the round wndows in the doors, ala R-15.
Peace,
ANDEE
On October 9, 1956, the Brooklyn Dodgers won the last World Series game they would ever play as the Brooklyn Dodgers. They defeated the Yankees, 1-0 behind the great pitching of Clem Labine, who went all the way. It was also the game that Jackie Robinson won for the Dodgers with a tenth inning base hit over Enos Slaughter's head. The next day the Yanks defeated the Bums 9-0 and within two months O'Malley, in a chicken shit move, traded Jackie to the Giants. Robbie put one over on him by retiring. He would always stay a Brooklyn Dodger.
Robinson felt the Giants needed youth instead of a veteran near the end of his career. Then on Opening Day of the 1957 season, Jackie's knee was so sore he could barely get out of bed. He knew he had retired at the right time.
There was a caricature of Maglie in a Dodger uniform staring down Robinson in a Giant uniform on the basepath, something thought to be inconceivable at one time. Then again, who would have ever thought that there would be a Duke Snider Night at the Polo Grounds someday, somehow?
Oh, I forgot why I made the last post. I saw a big picture that was printed in the LA papers showing the fans that day heading down into the Prospect Park Station to take the #1 Brighton Express for the trip home. What also impressed me was the guy wearing a Yankee hat who looked like someone stole his candy. Kind of reminds me of what I saw last Saturday when the Angels handed t he Bronxites their heads. The Yankee fans there beat a hasty retreat after the game and those who stayed seemed subdued indeed. PRICELESS!!!!!!!!
I just called up Astroland Amusement Park and got the bummer new. The Cyclone is closed until next Palm Sunday on April 13. What kind of crap is that? What a bummer. You would think the park would be open for the Cyclone fans to ride at least until the weather got real cold in November, but, no, they have to ruin part of my vacation with that crappy news. Well at least Nathan's is still open and I can also waste some money trying to win a prize in the free throw basketball attraction. But it is still a bummer.
"Well at least Nathan's is still open and I can also waste some money trying to win a prize in the free throw basketball attraction. But it is still a bummer. "
If you can't eat a Nathan's hot dog at Coney Island then life as we know it is over.
If you can't eat a Nathan's hot dog at Coney Island then life as we know it is over.
The Handwerker family sold out to a conglomerate a couple of decades ago. You can't get a "Nathan's" hot dog at Coney Island anymore.
When I go to Nathan's I eat the shrimp and scallops, not the hotdogs. I'm a seafood person.
But at least you can pretend, with something tangible in your mouth...
I can't eat a Nathan's hot dog at Coney Island.
I didn't think the amusement area would still be open in October.
I agree with you. I telephoned Astroland yesterday and found out that the "Cyclone" is closed. I would have wanted to ride it once again before it got too cold.
#3 West End Jeff
Are you coming into New York this weekend? You said you might. Come on, you missed the last two times I came to town. Time for some serious rail fanning.
I'm going to try if possible. Please tell me what times where you might be at specific locations.
#3 West End Jeff
Fred, will you and Bob PLEASE go to Branford on Sunday. Bob emailed me saying you guys would rather railfan in the city. Don't you realize you can get a chance to ride R-9 1689 through the Connecticut countryside? The R1-9's are the closest cars to your beloved D-types inside & out. I dare say that 1689 is even a better ride than the Cyclone which isn't even open. Branford is only about 90 miles from Manhattan. Just take I-95 to exit 51. Besides, if Bklyn convertible trolley 4573 is out you can imagine yourself taking it to Ebbett's Field.
Also there are supposed to be a lot of SubTalkers there Sunday.
I think Fred is still a little angry that he didn't make it in to New York City the last time he came out east for a family function. He was staying out in Clinton, N.J., and the closest he got to New York was the view from the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line. In a way, I can't blame him. It's like me staying near Rochester, New York, and traveling only as far as Buffalo, and not traveling across to Ontario to eat a Harvey's hamburger or something.
A good comparison would be my family's cross country drive in August. We made it to Arizona & Nevada (Vegas) and were very close to the California border but never crossed it. Sort of like a West Coaster only driving to The Poconos or New Jersey!!
Fred and I will discuss it, Is there a group going up my Metro North? or driving? We are staying at the Hotel Pennsylvania starting Friday I have a wedding Late Sat Afternoon, and will go home on Monday Fred will stay, Ask for Fred Peritore s room
Contact Sparky, Thurston, or Big Lou from Brooklyn... they'll have a better feel for the car pool arrangements. I'd offer to come through the City and pick you guys up but I don't have my van at the moment (wife's on a cross-country trip) and I don't really think you want to ride out back in the bed of my little old Ranchero :-) Metro North is another option but I've never taken it myself... Big Lou's done it enough, he can tell you how.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe we should ask for The Bob and Fred Show.:)
I'm planning to come also. I will come to Grand Central Terminal in Metro-North. Please tell me the time you expect to be at Grand Central Terminal is anyone gets this message.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, I'm pretty sure Steve's got a ride to Branford, meeting somewhere in Queens. There are probably other folks going M-N though... I'll change the subject header in an effort to catch their eye.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since I have a car, I can drive to Branford. I can also take the Metro-North Hudson Line train to Grand Central and then ride up on the New Haven Line train. Make sure to be specific on the time so that I'll know.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff,
I sent you the details under private cover a few moments ago,
but your best bet on Sunday, would be to drive.
;| ) Sparky
I hope Connecticut Troopers are kind to TA....I'll be cranking I-95 and you'll see but a flash of the WB2SGT 'RedbirdMobile.'
I guarantee Shoreline has never seen the likes of The Bob and Fred Show. We would be in for a real treat.:)
For the last several years, there has been a 'gang' of graffiti vandals who came to NYC for their 'vacation'. They'd stake out their target and then strike. They'd video tape the entry, the deed, the train going into service and the train being cleaned. They'd then go back to Europe and sell the tapes.
Well a week ago Monday, these two were spotted video-taping the automatic gate at Concourse Yard. The police were alerted and two days later, they were in custody. In their bag of tricks was a camcorder with a videotape of the Concourse gate and the car of the manager who spotted them - driving out.
So now to these two schmucks and those who admired them, sought to emulate them or even bought their videos, I'd like to say this:
Na - Na - Na - Na - Na
What a pair of schmucks!!!!
You wouldn't beleive how much those European chaos kiddies idolize public property vandalism done here in the US. They've been seriously misled to think that the locals who spraypaint/marker/scratchitti or otherwise deface our trains are politically motivated heroes of the revolution. I kid you not!
Its just another sick fetish.
It's too bad they weren't run over by a train as should all these grafitti criminals.
A few have been run over.
A bit drastic but sort of the punishment fitting the crime?
I suppose punishment-fitting-the-crime would be to find the graffitist house and paint it in a giant mural of dogs playing poker, sad clowns, or maybe a velvet-looking Elvis.
Mark
OOoooooooo ... I *like* it. :)
Reminds me of that episode of The Simpsons when Jimbo says to Nelson and Kearny, "Videotaping this crime spree is the best idea we've ever had!"
Another case of life immitating satire...
Mark
The sophistication and sensativity of the always culturally-superior Europeans once again is shown off in its finest light
Good for they RASS!!!! They can't do it in Europe. what the F@#%K makes them think they can do it here? Mind you, some also come from Australia too.
Good. Appropriate punishment....I'd like to see 'em run over by the train!
I wonder if those 2 were "inspired" by a person I shall not name?
I'm with you, Train Dude. When do they get deported?
This could explain why Salaam Allah was given a hard time while videotaping on the IRT.
I'm with you, Train Dude. When do they get deported?
Why deport them? Let them do time in jail here so that they can't brag at home. When the complete their time then sent them back!!
Agreed.
Usually, they do the jail time and are then deported.
In this particular situation, my money is on a fine, followed by what the INS calls "Voluntary Departure."
(For those who don't know, Voluntary Departure amounts to jumping before you're pushed. In return for paying your own way home, the US leaves open the possibility that you can return some day.)
Does anyone know what European country they were from? I hope it wasn't England.... (;-(
One was from Germany and one was from Poland.
Not surprised about Germany....the graffiti on their NEW equipment rivals some of the worst of 70's NYCTA stuff!
I saw a special on the Washington DC Metro. Does anybosy know of any other shows about subways or transit systems coming up? Any info is greatly appreciated.
tomorrow, there will be a tv program about washington
D.C. Assesses Self-Propelled Train.
Damn, Washington Post has started requiring registrations. Please post the entire article, with commentary to make it legal.
> Please post the entire article, with commentary to make it legal.
Cite where you figured out this was legal? Commentary != fair use...
What are you talking about? It's a three question survey that appears the first time you go to the site, and it doens't appear again.
Did you read my post "Damn, missed the DMU display"
I got to the article fine, and I've never registered for the site.
For Release October 9, 2002 IMMEDIATE
Contact Tom Kelly #31
(212) 878-7440
METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY ANNOUNCES
HISTORIC RESTRUCTURING
Peter S. Kalikow, Chairman of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, today announced a restructuring of the Authority, designed to further improve services to its customers. The initiative, with the most sweeping changes in the Authority's 37-year history, will result in the merging of various umbrella agencies into five distinct companies under the MTA; each with a single transportation mission.
The restructuring, which will begin immediately and be phased in over a two-year period, will result in the creation of the following companies:
-MTA Rail Road, formerly Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North Railroad
-MTA Subways, which will include NYC Transit (subways) and Staten Island Railway
-MTA Bus, formerly Long Island Bus, MaBTSOA, and NYC Transit (buses)
-MTA Capital, in charge of overseeing system expansion projects for all MTA companies
-MTA Bridges and Tunnels
HMMM????
MTA Rail Road
The MTA currently oversees two separate rail companies, the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) and Metro-North (MNR), each serving a different metropolitan region. The LIRR, created in 1834 and part of the MTA since 1968, provides service between Manhattan, Nassau and Suffolk counties, as well as parts of Brooklyn and Queens. It transports 277,200 riders each weekday, up from 259,200 in 1995.
MNR, formerly Conrail, joined the MTA in 1976, and services seven New York and two Connecticut counties. MNR transports 252,600 riders each weekday, up from 217,400 riders in 1995.
"Merging the two railroad managements into a single structure will help create a more efficient railroad; one with a broader regional focus," Mr. Kalikow said. "The stabilization and expansion of the region's economy requires a regional approach to the provision of commuter rail services and the new MTA Rail Road will provide that focus well in to the 21st century."
It certainly does make sense to merge the two railroads' fare structures. I have been saying for years that you should be able to buy a ticket from say, Port Jefferson to Poughkeepsie for a single fare.
:-) Andrew
Actually, the real shame is that they can't fully merge the two railroads due to the old PRR - NYC different third rail. If they were the same when the GC-LIRR connection is made, or when there is room for MN in Penn at that time, there could have been direct trains from let's say Port Jefferson to Poughkeepsie. Although just the fact that the RR's will meet in the same terminals may be enough.
It sure does SOUND that way ... some information on that would have been nice, but these PR releases are for political purposes. Maybe someone might want to write them and ask?
Hopefully they'll be firing the lirr management and keeping the mncr people. the entire lot of lirr folks ought to have been kicked to the curb with the entire DE/DM engine fiasco, not to mention trying to kill rail freight on LI before finally getting smart and contracting it out to NYA...
Nevermind firing them. some of them ought to be hung publically, along side some of them enron folks...
the entire lot of lirr folks ought to have been kicked to the curb with the entire DE/DM engine fiasco, not to mention trying to kill rail freight on LI before finally getting smart and contracting it out to NYA...
I agree, I love the LIRR, but have to agree that Metro-North is so much better run than the LIRR - it has been for years. The "DM/DE fiasco" is the icing on the cake.
Holy sh*t, I still can't believe they are doing away with the LIRR name!
Well, does this MTA Railraod have a name?
If it gets named the "Joseph Bruno Intermodal Commuter Service" I'm going to spew. :)
That will never happen. He's not dead, and he's not from this part of the state. How about Robert Moses?
AH ... you fail to understand the power of CHEESE ... Bruno has two Amtrak stations AND a baseball stadium ... never underestimate the ego of politicians. The "gotta be on the ground and smelling funny" rule no longer applies. :)
RMRR
Louks KEEL!!!
Yes... MTA Railroad I presume. Like SEPTA Regional Rail.
No decision has been made as to whether the two railroads will maintain their individual identies or not. That's never stopped us before so let's see who can come up witht he best name for the consolidated commuter railroad.
Like The Long Island and Northern RR.
Better still:
LONG ISLAND NORTHERN COMMUTER RAILROAD
How about NEW YORK METROPOLITAN AREA RAILROAD?
...and a slogan comes to mind, "Take NYMAR and go far".
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmmm. Taking Todd's point a step further, how about:
New York's Terrific Metropolitan Area Railroad Entity?
Cute
Metro North and East Railroad
Downstate Railroad
:-) Andrew
Everyone's concentrating on the railroad merger.
I'm more concerned about the Transit split. Am I the only one who's noticed that, by this plan, New York City Transit is no more? The bus and subway divisions need to coordinate in many ways, and I'm worried that the split will make coordination difficult.
If the idea was to roll LI Bus and SIR into other agencies, how about a mammoth MTA Transit or MTA Bus and Subway?
The Long Island Rail Road, et al.
Exactly.
Here we go:
- the Poughkeepsie and Patchogue Railroad (take a PP to Ronkonkoma)
- the New York, New Haven and Hamptons Railway Company (NYNH&H, could you imagine?)
- Northeast Direct (wait, that sounds too familiar :)
- the New York Central (because NYC is central to these two railroads)
- the Port Jervis & Ronkonkoma Railroad Company
- the Hudson and Atlantic Railway
--Mark
Silly rabbit ... "The Joseph M Bruno Jobs Jitney" or course ... :)
With appropriate credit due Mr. Peter Rosa, I suggest SCATS (Suit Covered Anus Transportation System).
CG
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
Conspiracy theory #1:
This is a premptive reorganization prior to a NY state takeover of all intrastate rail services. i.e., the MTA's got it's sights set on Penn Station, and current Amtrak services in NY state.
AHA!!!!!I knew someone [becides myself]would see that one!!!! Kirk,where are you?!
Heh. Trying to figure out where Joe Bruno is. By putting US into the MTA tax zone and providing us what we have, I'm trying to figure out just how big Joey's cash war chest will be for the NEXT election where he runs unopposed. :)
But yeah, I can see annexing the Amtrak runs and using the upstate fare structures downstate. Wonder how folks from Wantagh and Oyster Bay will feel about a $33.00 one way off-peak ride. :)
Iknew I could count on you.....moo
Ya know? I'm gonna GIT you for this - been thinking up a wad here (we're talking huge lunger) about what Bruno would do if MTA came up here and he could get his mitts DIRECTLY on it. First off, hit a signal on the Q train, and you'll be whizzing in TROY (Bruno insists that anything he can grab at move to Troy, the armpit of the planet) and how neat that 55 bus (the one and ONLY bus that round robins between Troy, Schenectady and Smallbany for the benefit of da city folk) will be with pacman on its nose.
Like I said, I'm gonna GET you for this kwap rumbling through my brain. Baaaa-aaaa. :)
no 55 in TROY. So you have to take it back!!!22, yeah.but no 55. and if he had his way, that half hour wait I have on that buss comming form work would be a hour, if it came out of TROY. And by the by? I use to live in Troy about a few years ago and couldn't wait to get out!!!!! The funk that came out of that place,on those ''special days''made you want to head for the hills!! Did'nt get as far as the hills yet, but you never know....
Heh. Been a while since I've had any need to go up to the Troylet. Thought it was the 55 ... amazing CDTA version of the S S Minnow. A mere three hour tour indeed. :)
(for folks who don't get it, there was ONE bus that travelled from Troy to Schenectady to Albany and back, took nearly three hours and was never scheduled at a time that was of any use to anybody) ... this is the SAME CDTA that couldn't build a rail station, but is now off merrily building yet ANOTHER one in Saratoga for Senator Joey to shake down Amtrak with again ... transit in the Capital District? Folks in da city don't know HOW good you've got it.
Trans-Dogpatch Airlines would be an improvement over what WE got ...
Iknew I could count on you.....moo.You know,I'm rather a strait forword kinda guy.. and this crap really cheeses me off!!!! Even if this may not be the case[MTA takeover],why do they continue to play 'THREE CARD MONTY'' WITH THE PEOPLE OF THIS STATE? burettocraps can kiss my a$$ TILL IT SHINES!!!I know this will never happen.. but if you plan on making changes,just say so!!! dont beat around the bush with bull shit to sell folks with. It burns my butt to see people get burned by folks in suits ,who think they know whats best for EVERYONE ELSE,and cant even screw in a light bulb right!!! GEZZ!!!
Well, so far all we've seen is PRspeak with little substance, I guess we all have to sit on our duffs and wait for the powerpoint presentation. I just can't see folks downstate going for taking over our "high costs" by making the MTA bigger. Really don't know WHAT to make of it all.
If it's just your typical adminiswig "rearranging of the deck shairs on the Titanic" then maybe it won't be all that bad - I've been through several "consolidations" when I worked for the state and my ass is STILL sore and also why I said, "enough - I'm hitting the silk."
I just don't see MTA taking over the Amtrak piece - the rest is to be expected. But so far, can't find the Queen and I been watching them cards closely. Even watched the pea drop through the hole in the table and STILL no clue as to the scam here. :)
I'm still pissed, though.But then again... aren't we all?
I guess we'll see on November 6th ... but I gotta admit, the timing is mighty suspicious. Anyone who ever worked for the state KNOWS that memos do NOT mysteriously appear close to election time, drug dealers disappear and nobody knows a thing. Interesting times ...
But I'm sure this will all be revealed AFTER all the levers have been pulled ...
YEAH.After all the palms have been greassed sufficently,butts rimmed well,and everybody screwed royaly,then maybe we might see how they forgot to give us our fair share of VASALINE!!!!!
Oh NO, Mr. Swami ... these are COMPASSIONATE times. Jeweler's rouge. :)
Yeah,so you mean everybody get screwed equaly?with the equaly amount of lub?
Ummm ... ring, ring ... cluephone ... heh.
"Jeweler's rouge" is a fine grain GRIT for polishing precious metals. They go to COARSE grit *only* after November 6th. Then and only then shall the truth lamp be lit. Word. Ummm, qvack.
Let's see...a consolidated railroad. How about CONRAIL? OK, so I get no points for originality.
I wouldn't worry about the layman dropping the LIRR name anytime soon.
Remember, NYC Transit (oops, MTA Subways) tried to get rid of the IND, BMT and IRT division nomenclatures, but they still exist prominently on all emergency signs found at the end of platforms (showing direction of travel on each track, track number, distance to next emergency exit and the division of the subway you're in).
And the BMT Southern division lines are still referred to as West End, Sea Beach, Culver and Brighton, even though 95% of the ridership has no idea what a "culver" or a "Sea Beach" is.
So based on that, I don't see people in the future saying "take the MTA Railroad to Patchogue ..."
It hasn't been that long since the "M" logos were replaced with the current PacMan logos, and I guess it's time to get new logos again :)
--Mark
It goes even deeper than that, Mark. I do quite a bit of work with managers within the NYCTA, and even they use the "IND," "BMT," and "IRT" designations when talking to colleagues and outsiders about projects.
How much of this might be because the IRT and BMT were built according to different standards, and still cannot use each other's rolling stock? From what I gather reading these threads, there are some equipment incompatabilities between MN and LIRR systems. Might this help preserve separate system identities?
Mark
There are definite equipment incompatabilties. The MU equipment cannot be run between the two railroads. LIRR M1/M3/M7 equipment uses a NYC subway-style overruning third rail, while comparable MNR cars use an underrunning third rail (only other such system in North America is the SEPTA Market-Frankford line. The MNR M2/M4/M6 cars use a combination of underrunning third rail and overhead wire. The dual mode locos are also different and obviously have the same third rail incompatability. And of course the signal systems are different. Remember history - LIRR was Pennsy RR property, while MNR was the NY Central RR or the New Haven RR.
Even if it was possible to run a train from let's say Port Jefferson to Croton Harmon. I don't know how much use it would be. While it would be useful for some people, I think it will be similar to the way a line like let's say the M line. AT Metro, the M starts to pick up it's passengers Manhattan bound, all through Brooklyn it picks up more. Once in Manhattan, it starts to loose many of it's original passengers and it's role slowly changes to a train bringing people from manhattan into Brooklyn as it continues it's trip through Manhattan on it's way to Bay Parkway. I don't believe many of the passengers that were on the M train from Metro and those stations are on the train as it makes it's way down 4th ave in Brooklyn. That would be very similar to a LIRR to MN destination train.
In addition, once Metro North and the LIRR both go to Grand Central and Penn in the future, the need will be even less needed. A simple transfer at GC or Penn is all that will be needed. I guess it would be great if the systems were compatible, but I don't see how necessary a direct Patchogue to Wassaic train, etc would be.
the point is facillitating
1. NH line to Jamaica (connect AirTrain and all other LIRR)
2. MN to LIRR without going thru Manhattan for suburb to suburb commutes
3. sports specials
In my view the third rail issue will HAVE to be resolved. Catenary capable MU's should be NH line to NJT to NEC compatible. The Vanderbilt--PRR conflict is obsolete.
As long as you're on the subject, wouldn't it be great for Long Islanders who go to Branford to have a one seat ride to New Haven. But then, come to think of it, railfans are the ones who go to Branford and railfans would miss taking the subway between Penn and Grand Central!!!
This stuff about the third rail is so much pigeon poop.
It takes only a few minutes in the shop to replace the shoes with something that can work in either mode. The Genisis Locomotives can do this on the fly, so anybody else can do it too.
The Voltage differances are also nominal given the tolerance of the motors and or electonics packages.
Elias
Actually, not that easy. The third rail on the former NYC lines requires a spring loaded shoe, while the standard third rail does not.
The shoes on MNCR are sprung upwards (the top of the shoe contacts the bottom of the third rail) while standard third rail either has gravity shoes or shoes that are sprung downwards, so that the bottom of the shoe contacts the top of the rail.
The third rail beams are also placed differently, because the W-S third rail is higher than standard third rail.
Go ahead and EXAMINE how the shoes work on the Genisis locomotives.
they can be RETRACTED, or they can be set to either operating position.
Elias
Here's a photo of a retracted Genesis third rail shoe. Shot at Rensselaer on Labor Day 2001 on my trip home from the SubTalk Chicago field trip.
Yeah, but how hard could it be to convert? If trolley museums with very limited funds could put trolley poles on subway cars, then I'm positive the MTA with unlimited funds could convert the third rail shoes.
let MNCW and LIRR know if you find one that works on both systems at full power, cause no one has invented shoe mech's like those yet.
although the FL-9's did go on very rare occasion to Penn station in New Haven days the succes of moveble shoe mech was less than encouraging.
Except that Branford (AKA ShoreLine) HAD to put poles on the subway cars. CT has banned third rail in the state since early in the 20th Century, plus it's a no-no at musuems as the insurance companies would have kittens.
BTW, isn't the only other museum with rapid transit equipment have mostly Chicago L cars, which have had trolley poles since Sprague electrified the L's in the 1890's. Can you say IRM?
The third rail beams are also placed differently, because the W-S third rail is higher than standard third rail.
Does anyone have the exact specifications of third rail placement on either of the two railroads? (Or on each?)
Mark
The Metro north Genesis ONLY works of MNCW third rail and the Amtrak Genesis ONLY works off LIRR third rail.
the Amtrak units run with shoes in up position on MNCW or they take insulators down on third rail.
yea this is why MNR is pulling up its third rail in the lower level. it is preparing for LIRR entry to GCT. if u dont believe me, look at track 108 when u get a chance
Not true. When LIRR reaches GCT it will not use the current MNCR lower level. LIRR trains will use a physically separate station to be built below the existing GCT lower level. Part of the MNCR lower level space on the extreme north side (current yard tracks, not platform tracks) will become the new LIRR passenger concourse. This of course will not be completed till about 2011.
track 108 is being rebuilt, the only tracks disapearing for the LIRR terminal/waiting area is trak 120-121-122-123-124-125 these are yard tracks that use to be used for Madison ave yard/coach shop.
the LIRR trains will be on level under that.
Then again, we could drop the "M" and just call the whole kit and kaboodle the "TA" again. Woohoo! :)
I say bring back that blue M!
/\/\
SUBURBAN
I never did like the current MTA logo. Actually I kind of liked the "TA" logo they used to have on the R40's.
Hopefully they'll be firing the lirr management and keeping the mncr people. the entire lot of lirr folks ought to have been kicked to the curb with the entire DE/DM engine fiasco, not to mention trying to kill rail freight on LI before finally getting smart and contracting it out to NYA...
More likely, the LIRR anencephalics will end up running the whole show, and the Metro North managers will be "re-engineered."
Yes, I want LI Bus to be just MTA bus. If we leave the "LI" out, maybe just maybe I'll have a bus that runs more often than just once an hour.
And a blue stripe, without those circus colors! :-0
Ah Hah!! They're doing this to bail out Nassau County! No more LI Bus. No more LI Bus subsidies from the County.
Yes, finally! Now hopefully LI Bus will be on par with NYCT in more aspects.
The restructuring, which will begin immediately and be phased in over a two-year period, will result in the creation of the following companies:
-MTA Rail Road, formerly Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North Railroad
WOW! I can't believe it! The Long Island Rail Road name has been continuously in existence since the mid 1800's! It's one of the few Railroads that has kept it's original name since it's start!
And there's no logical reason for that name to die. Consolidate the adminiswigs and operations, SURE. Kill the railroad so politicians can point to a flowchart and tell us how neat they are, that's a SHABBY reason. :(
It's not clear that the LIRR name will die, only that it will be jointly managed with Metro North.
I guess the big question is: are they merging management at the top (this would seem to have the most desirable effect) of the two railroads or simply creating a new layer of executive management above both the LIRR and Metro-North (just more bureaucracy and high salaries).
CG
Would have been nice if the press release indicated such. But then again, it's made for a great alternative to the "dribbling customer" thread. :)
it's made for a great alternative to the "dribbling customer" thread.
Heheheheh. lol!
I guess the big question is: are they merging management at the top (this would seem to have the most desirable effect) of the two railroads or simply creating a new layer of executive management above both the LIRR and Metro-North (just more bureaucracy and high salaries).
It's being promoted by politicians. What the heck do you think?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They can probably consolidate back office kind of stuff (payroll processing, paychecks, health plans etc.) and they might be able to consolidate procurement for some things (but not rolling stock).
I also read in Newsday that the LIRR name has been around since 1834 when it first started. Currently The Long Island Rail Road is the third oldest railroad name in the WORLD - alot of history! I wonder what the first and second oldest are.
Of course I mean "The Long Island Rail Road is the third oldest operating railroad name in the world".
This is idiodic. First off, the IRR and MN are two totally different operations, second off, there's no reason to merge them. This seems more like a typical MTA bullshit move, just like the pacman logo was.
MTA railroad? Ugh!
IMHO, we should start a letter / email writting campiegn to the MTAS to retain the LIRR and MN names. Nobody complains about it, so why change it?
Also, the LIRR has a real history behind it? Throw that all away to shut up the marketing and managing idiots?
MTA railroad? Ugh!
That's the same phrase I keep hearing in my head. Ugh!
It's about as dumb as Acela. So now you will hear New Yorkers talk about "take the MTA -- it's easy, you take the MTA to Penn, then you take the MTA to Plughkeepsie, and then you take the MTA No.522 to my house. Then when you want to get home we'll drive you on the MTA. It's all really simple."
Boston's "T" seems to only refer to the subways. I wonder which mode will get called the "MTA".
AEM7
From where was this press release obtained? I was unable to find it on the MTA website (www.mta.info) as of 8:18 PM 10/9/02.
David
IT'S TRUE! IT'S TRUE!
Peace,
ANDEE
"In addition, the MTA is considering taking over Green Bus Lines, Jamaica Buses, Queens Surface and Triboro Coach, the Daily News reported. Some to the lines have been hit this year with strikes." (from the story whose link was posted).
Won't that cause a political fire storm?
Let me tell you, it would be great if MTA took over those terrible Queens buslines.
"From where was this press release obtained? I was unable to find it on the MTA website (www.mta.info) as of 8:18 PM 10/9/02.
David "
... just for the record I still can't find it on the website as of this posting. Strange that they wouldn't consider this to be newsworthy on their own site.
CG
>>MTA Rail Road, formerly Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North Railroad<<
ACK !
Sounds like the MTA is gonna implode !
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe the fares will go down as a result. Just kidding. :)
Also in the announcement is the absorbtion of the "private" bus companies into "MTA - Bus".
The rest is just a few less names at the top, or maybe a few more ?
while I sympathize with tradition in the case of the LIRR, MNCR to me is a nothing name anyway. BUT, AFAIK, M series cars on MN have better MDBF than similar equipment on the LIRR, customers are happier,--it would seem that gutting the LI mismanagers would be a good move. Whether this PennCentral of commuter services will fly is an interesting question. As to end user perceptions the geographic route names will survive much as at NJT--how many of them refer to the CRRNJ?
I agree, Metor North has no rich history that the name really matters all that much. But the LIRR, it would really be robbing the region of a name that's been around for way over 150 years continuously.
You know, just because they're putting the LIRR and MNRR under an umbrella group for management purposes doesn't NECESSARILY mean that the "brand names" of LIRR and MNRR will no longer be used. Has MTA actually stated they will no longer use those names with the general public?
I don't like it at all. Yes, bring it all together, but keep the names as is.
So do you also insist on Erie, DL&W, CRRNJ, PRR, and North Jersey Coast names for NJT? And at Septa PRR and RDG? And for that matter the names of the previous independent RR's which were absorbed by the trunk lines? Yes I refer to the B&O among railfans, but its either ATK or CSX to civilians 'cause that's what they see.
Just to emphasize, the MTA will be keeping the MNR, and LIRR names even though they will be merging.
Good idea. Should bring more funding and more new jobs to suck up the money. I just hope MTA rail won't go bamkrupt like the last time MNRR and LIRR went under the same roof. PennCentral caused as much defered maintenence as the subways got.
Do you think MTA RAIL will select NY Central 3rd rail or LIRR 3rd rail if they had to choose?
What will the NYA be part of?
The NYA doesn't really have anything to do with the MTA except that the LIRR owns the tracks.
As you see, my screen name does not have literal meaning to the MTA. Many of us wish that Redbirds Forever is true. But it isnt. We are starting to see the beggining of a 2 car system on the IRT. (R-62, R-142/142A)
To me this is sad. Do not get me wrong I love the cars.....they ride great, the announcments are clear......but they are all the same!!! No diversity on the IRT. Sucks.
Now railfans, we must look at the BMT. A place of real diversity. R-32's, R-38's, R-40S, R-40M, R-42, R-44/46, R-68, and R-143's.
We will have about 4 years before we see the scrapping of such classic cars as the brightliners and the slants. Now this is diversity. As they part railfans, then the system will be really bland. The R-160 will elminate all diversity. This thought I cannot bare. Enjoy it now, while it lasts!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris "Redbirds Forever"
I know its getting bad. I work on the #5 Line two days and I only see 2 redbirds per weekend. The rest are R142's and some R62's comeing from 149 GC.
I haven't seen any Redbirds on the midday 5 in recent weeks.
I rode one today.
I didn't say they don't exist -- I just said that I haven't seen any. Yes, I've waited around for them, on two or three occasions.
i agree the BMT/IND rock,i think the IRT is doing not so good.they only have 4 car set trains,while the BMT/IND has 2,4,8 and 10 car sets
the IRT can,t beat that.i think the R44 should go,they just don,t look good.
til next time
I agree but do you literally want cars that are gonna fall apart? The Redbirds may have good speed but they're in horrible condition.
They have got to go!
Some of the R40 Slants are in the same condition. The roofs are duct taped and the metal is rotted away. R40m and R42S are good cars but dull and very squeaky.
I disagree getting rid of the R32s though. Those cars seem like they do not have a rot stain on them. And their ride is awesome. I just don't get it.
The cars that have GOT TO GO are the R44s and the R46s. Those cars look shot and they're pretty dull-looking if you ask me. I wonder if the SIRR will get rid of their R44s and get some R160S or will they receive either some leftover R44s from the A?
10 models of subway cars will be around in 2006:
A Division: R62, R62A, R142, R142A
B Division: R46, R68, R68A, R143, R160, R160A.
Can you say BORING?
#1490 4 Lexington Ave Express
#2501 N Sea Beach Local
10 models of subway cars will be around in 2006:
A Division: R62, R62A, R142, R142A
B Division: R46, R68, R68A, R143, R160, R160A.
The R-32's will be around for another ten years or so. In addition, at least some, maybe all, of the R-38's, R-40(M)'s and R-42's will still be around in 2006, although they'll be gone before the R-32's.
But the IRT already had a two-car system. The Redbirds were all alike, different only in their degree of rust.
At least the R-142 and R-142A have noticeable differences. The only differences in the Redbirds were windows.
When the 'birds go the IRT will be back into a period of relative uniformity that it had from period of WWI through 1939, when the World's Fair Low Vs arrived to go against the standard (as opposed to Standrad) railcar look. The period of 1948-69 was the time of the real variety on the IRT, as the High Vs and Low Vs were phased out while the R series began arriving, first with the R-10 Mini-Me's, the R-12/R-14s, and then with the really unique R-15s.
From 1969 though 1984 the 12/14/15 provided the biggest diversity on the IRT to most riders. Anyone could tell the difference between those cars and the R-17 and up series, but you had to look harder to spot the differences in the R-17/21/22 trains (storm door window, metal strap hand grip designs, route sign knob design, etc.), and the later R-26/28/29/33/36ML trains, especially after the former group lost their padded seats. The picture windows and blue/white paint job on the R-33/36 WF trains was the biggest difference for a while, and all of those trains (plus the single-colored main liners) lost their unique exterior paint schemes when Bill Ronan's MTA corporate color look was made the law.
The period from the arrival of the first R-62s to the near-future departure of the last of the R-33 and R-36 trains hasn't been as diverse as the 1948-69 period, but to the untrained eye it would definitely be more varied than what the IRT ran for the first 35 years of its life. When the R-62/62A/142/142A become the entire rolling stock for the system, it will be roughly back to where it was in the 1939/55 period, when there were a few choices on the IRT, but not many.
The redbird/R-62 system provided little more diversity than what will exist in the very near future. It was 2 types of car then, and 2 now. (true, there are many types of redbird, but they all look very similar. The ML cars are virtually idintical, unless you know what to look for.)
Now railfans, we must look at the BMT. A place of real diversity. R-32's, R-38's, R-40S, R-40M, R-42, R-44/46, R-68, and R-143's.
It's not just the BMT! it's the IND too! (just messin' wit ya)
We will have about 4 years before we see the scrapping of such classic cars as the brightliners and the slants. Now this is diversity. As they part railfans, then the system will be really bland.
I still believe that the 44's should go before the 32's. Maybe the 44's are better mechanically, I don't know. But you are most definately correct about the coming end of diversity on the B division.
If so, we've gone full circle. From the late sixties through early eighties, I found the IRT very boring. There were some differences between all the models from R14 through 36- round front windows on the 15s and 17s; round door windows on the 15s; louvered roofs on the 12s; straight-back benches up to the 22s and rounded ones from the 26s up; pink benches on the 29s(?). By 1970, any exterior color variation was obliterated by the MTA standard issue faux silver with blue stripe that would soon in turn be obliterated by graffiti. No IRT car had front-facing seats, or any distinctive motor sounds. From a comfort standpoint, none had A/C till 1978 or '79.
Compare that to the B Division in the early to mid seventies. The 1/9s were still groaning along Queens Boulevard they would share with the then-revolutionary door-chiming 44s- not to mention many models of rolling stock in between: 16s on the local; 32s; 38s; 40s both Slant and Mod; 42s. The R10s still roared along CPW in tandem with 32s, 42s, 44s and the occasional 1/9. The Eastern Division, which was generally stuck with the decrepit 16s and durable 27/30s through the sixties (I personally never seemed to see or ride a Standard), was spiced up with both older (1/9) and newer(42)equipment. The 1/9s at first seemed oddly out of place on elevated trackage.
Coney Island terminal was always a fascinating mixed bag, especially in the rush hour. Even just standing at Columbus Circle for a half an hour during rush hour, it was possible to see almost every model pass.
The IRT became much more interesting in the eighties with the arrival of the 62s. There was a brief period, approximately 1984-87, when some lines carried both them and the remaining 17s through 22s, which by then were graffiti-on-white. The last time I saw anything older than a 62A on the 3 was in January '87. The 17s on the Shuttle seemed to last until late '87 or early '88.
The 4 and 6 continued to mix Redbirds and stainless steel regularly through 2001. The 6 was particularly intriguing that year when it carried Redbirds, 62As and 142As simultaneously- especially considering that by the nineties, most B Division lines were reduced to either one or two models of rolling stock. To this day, only the N retains any variety.
Ironically the 7, which for decades was the same model without fail, now exhibits some variety, mixing WF Redbirds with a few Mainline 36s (which started showing up there in the late nineties) and 62As. How long that'll last is uncertain.
>>>No IRT car had front-facing seats....<<<
Hi-Vs did, before they added the center door. And, although only a prototype, the R-110A has transverse seats.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 4 still runs R-62's and R-33's -- and, now, a few R-142A's. Just like the 6 last year.
The A, incidentally, runs R-32's, R-38's, and R-44's.
So what if it's 'bland'?
The railfan concern as you've already figured out is irrelevant to the MTA. The 'birds are falling apart anyways.
Just wanted to know whuzzz up with the "Transit Professional" of the Deuce?
Probably off looking for Leaky Couchies on the 1. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
ILL! NASTY!!! LOL!
#6690 2 7 Ave Express
Nah I heard ToothLess Sally has been seen around Flatbush.
Hey, Rush....I thought so! ROTFLMAO!!!
Maybe we have two people searching for the elusive sacred wooden balls.
This morning's otherwise typically drab and uninformative Canberra Times newspaper carried a promotion for the 91st Anniversary of the Republic of Chine (Taiwan) which included a photo of the Taipei CBD - Tun Hwa South Rd - with what appeared to be a 4 car elevated train crossing the road.
I believe that there are posters with Taiwanese connections, and I'd be interested in any info they or anyother subtalker may have on this system
Thanks in advance
What kinda of info? It was a system retro-fitted by a French consortium, and they are adding lines rather rapidly. The first construction work started in 1992 and the first line (Blue Line) opened in 2000, using a former Commuter Rail right-of-way in the suburbs and using new 'el' and subway downtown. The other lines were brand new. There are now like 5 or 6 lines. I don't know what impacts it has on the municipal buses and other private bus operators. Try www.metropla.net for more info.
AEM7
All I was really after was a steer in the right direction, so thanks for this.
The construction of Mucha line started in 1989, instead of 1992. Mucha line, an el line, opened in 1996, instead of 2000. Tamshui line opened in 1997.
Chaohwa
If you want to see the details of Taipei Rapid Transit System, you go to the official site of its operating company, Taipei Rapid Transit Company, which has an English site.
Chaohwa
i couldnt believe my friggen ears!!!! i spoke to a friend of mine a fellow railfan. I HAVE A REPORT OF 5100 A R68A ON THE F TRAIN. HE RODE IT FROM 34TH TO 179. I DIDNT GET A EXACT TIME, BUT IT WAS DURING MIDDAY HOURS AROUND 1. ANYONE CARE TO SHARE???? PROLLY A EQUIPMENT SHORTAGE! this happens on buses too, i have had a ORION on the Q84 from stengel!
Today 10/9? I sure didnt see it.
What???????!!!!!!!! Thats a first. Did the person take a picture? Did he get the #'s? If this is true (which sounds so), then something really happened.
Since the F train does not go to Stillwell Avenue and the R-68As do not get over to the 6th Avenue line in service - I'd be more than skeptical about such a report. Likely it was a 6100 was mistaken for a 5100 and nothing more.
You're probably right, more "foamer fantasies". I was at 34th Street between 1250-1315 on Wednesday talking to a friend before getting on the D. During that time 3 Fs and 2 Vs passed through all R46s. Reminds of the time someone "saw" the R-110B on the L a few years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Since the F train does not go to Stillwell Avenue and the R-68As do not get over to the 6th Avenue line in service - I'd be more than skeptical about such a report. Likely it was a 6100 was mistaken for a 5100 and nothing more.
But the (F) does still have the track connection to Stillwell, doesn't it? If they were really desperate they could still bring an R68A over to Ave X. Not that it's likely, mind you, but it is possible.
:-) Andrew
More importantly, the F still has the connection to Coney Island yard. Are any spare R-46's kept there, or are they all at Jamaica? Perhaps an R-46 died and something was needed to substitute, and an R-68A set was the first set available.
Or maybe a Q was pressed into F service into Queens north of 57th. Most Q's are R-68's and R-40's, but a few R-68A's often find their way over.
>>>Or maybe a Q was pressed into F service into Queens north of 57th. Most Q's are R-68's and R-40's, but a few R-68A's often find their way over.<<<
Maybe so, but the original poster stated that the train was already in service as an F at 34th Street.
Peace,
ANDEE
So it did one full round trip from Queens to Brooklyn before returning to the Q.
I'm not saying it happened. I'm saying it's not entirely inconceivable.
Yes - there is a physical connection over the main line and yes, there is a connection through the Coney island Complex. The real issue is "would it be done?" and I say it would not. Given the number of trains in F service, if the F went down one train, the line would simply go on a change of headway. Especially at that time of day, one train would hardly be missed for 1/2 trip until the 'gap' train could be slotted in.
New York Yard is the part of CI yard dedicated to the F and has plenty of R46's.
179 St also has a few F layups sitting downstairs.
Like you said, they'd adjust headway (done all the time).
To get a train out of the yard would take time (put in time is 45 min).
They may also turn a train or two at KHF and/or push trains out of the Ave. X relay faster until they can get a train out of the yard to fill the gap.
But a 68A very unlikely.
"New York Yard is the part of CI yard dedicated to the F and has plenty of R46's"
One correction - it's called either City Yard or Ave X yard!
I've heard it called NY yard too. But you are right, and City Yard being the more commonly used name.
"Or maybe a Q was pressed into F service into Queens north of 57th. Most Q's are R-68's and R-40's, but a few R-68A's often find their way over"
So, there's a gap in F service and in order to fill that hole they create a hole in Q service. And to fill that hole they divert an N train. Wait, now there's a gap in N service - lets use a W. Oooops, now we need to re-route an M train to plug the gap in W service.
Look - the reality is that it would not normally be done. Of course, what the person might have seen was a schoolcar train.
What's this you say? R-42's on the W?!
I guess the R68A F train were used to shoot movie, it could be the recent R68A A that was also used to shoot movie.
Now how could anyone confuse a Hippo with anything else ?
Good question.
Is it the R-68 that's been dubbed the "hippo" or is it the R-68A?
Both, IIRC. R-44/46s are "rhinos".
Peace,
ANDEE
What's the difference ... oh boy I woke him up.
Andee is right the other 75 footers are Rino's aka R-44/46 & they can get out of their own ways.
You can't confuse a "Hippo" with anything else, especially if you wind up boarding the 2500 - 2900 series "Hippos" because once you get on board, that all too familiar squealing noise is issuing from the P/A system. If you are the unlucky victim of getting on car #2802, you be greeted to an especially loud squealing noise from the P/A system. This past March 24th I had the misfortune of boarding that car operating on the "Q" train to Coney Island and the squealing noise was so loud and annoying, that I had to wear my hood that I use to keep my minor cleft palate from bothering me in cool weather to protect my sensitive ears instead. If I didn't have my hood on, the noise would have driven me bananas. Sometimes the noise is loud enough that you can hear it OUTSIDE of the cars when they are waiting at a station.
#3 West End Jeff
[... "Hippos" (make) that all too familiar squealing noise ...]
Jeff, my friend, I can't top that remark !
If you want to be sure of riding a "Hippo" the doesn't have the squealing noise, you should board one numbered from 5001-5200 that are the R-68As built by Kawasaki. Not only are those quiet, they can actually work themselves up to a pretty decent speed sometimes. You read right, there are some fast "Hippos" out there.
#3 West End Jeff
Interesting! How fast do they actually go? How much slower are the regular R-68s. Why do you suppose that they don't squeal? Don't they have the same propulsion system and braking as the R-68s?
Isn't the reason quite obvious? R-68's are built by the French, who hate the U.S. That's what explains their crappy performance. R-68A's were built by Kawasaki, the God of all NYC subway builders. You of all people should know this!
< end sarcasm > I find the R-68A's more aesthetically pleasing, and they do seem to take the turns a little quieter. I am NOT saying that this is a FACT, only my personal OPINION.
The R68 series comprises a set of very handsome subway cars. I agree with you about their appearance.
And their price was only $825,000 per car. That was the last time NYC transit paid less than a million dollars for a subway car!
If the french hate us why did they help win the US independence from UK?
Isn't the reason quite obvious? R-68's are built by the French, who hate the U.S. That's what explains their crappy performance. R-68A's were built by Kawasaki, the God of all NYC subway builders. You of all people should know this!
< end sarcasm > I find the R-68A's more aesthetically pleasing, and they do seem to take the turns a little quieter. I am NOT saying that this is a FACT, only my personal OPINION.
The R-68As by feel accelerate faster and can often work up to a higher speed than the R-68s. On a good straight stretch of track the R-68As probably can reach at least 45 m.p.h. The squealing that you hear on the R-68s numbered 2500-2924 are likely due to the P/A system being improperly grounded.
#3 West End Jeff
"The R-68As by feel accelerate faster and can often work up to a higher speed than the R-68s."
So let me see if I got this straight. The R-68A weighs 92,720 Lbs per car. They have 460 HP per car and a gear ratio of 117:23. They use the E-cam propulsion package.
On the other hand, the R-68 weighs 92,720 per car. They only have 460 HP per car. Their gear ratio is 117:23 and they have the E-cam propulsion system with exactly the same e-proms. The R-68 and R-68A have exactly the same profile too. See - now I understand how you say that the R-68As are faster than the R-68s.
"The squealing that you hear on the R-68s numbered 2500-2924 are likely due to the P/A system being improperly grounded."
wow, thanks for clearing that up. and I guess the cars ground and unground in different parts of the tunnels, causing the hum to come and go. Gee, I'll pass that along to the engineers who have not been able to find the cause. They'll be happy to know that you've got the answer. By the way, what exactly is ungrounded - just in case they ask?
lol
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Now that you have specified the weight of the R-68s but not the R-68As, given that the power and the gear ratios are the same, the acceleration rate should theoretically be the same for both the R-68s and the R-68As provided that the weight is the same. A small difference in the weight would have a negligible effect on the acceleration rate. A large difference in the weight would have a noticeable effect on the accelration rate.
#3 West End Jeff
Perhaps you should go back and read my post again. According to official NYCT publications, both cars have identical weights.
If both the R-68s and the R-68As weigh exactly the same, and the propulsion systems are the same, theorotically the acceleration rates of both cars should be the same.
#3 West End Jeff
and for acceleration and weight purposes ARE the same
If so, then you'd have to admit that your statement about the R-68A being faster than the R-68 might be incorrect - right?
Facts dont matter, R68As are faster than R68s
Then run an acceleration test between the R-68s and the R-68As on the same stretch of track and time the two different trainsets to check which one is faster.
#3 West End Jeff
You know, if the NYCT was interested in appeasing railfans who can't distinguish between fact and fantasy, that would be an excellent idea.
Unfortunately, the NYCT is in the business of moving people. So if you can't look at a set of facts and reach an appropriate conclusion based on those facts,then you are condemned to live in a utopia of ignorance. As someone has correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, this same tired subject comes up every 6 months or so. Despite that, and despite all of the facts to the contrary, there are still those that can't seem to get it right.
So now what do you do? What do you do with people foaming at the mouth? People who refuse to face facts! People who can't look at an optical illusion and realize it for what it is. The qestion is significant because it is for exactly this reason that many more people who might have some real information to offer - choose not to participate in railfan activities.
I believe the poster was not being serious...
There are a lot of people who just like to joke around and make fun of the R-68s and the R-68As.
#3 West End Jeff
That's what I thought.
The Dude has got to learn to relax and 'chill out'....not good for the blood pressure to take everything SOOOOOOO seriously :)
I think you're right that the "Dude" should take it easy. It isn't good for your blood pressure.
#3 West End Jeff
Well Jeff, you're quite an observant railfan.
I know many will disagree, but I guess it's possible for someone who has never operated a train to make observations about a train's propulsion and braking.
Relating this to the R-62 vs. R-62A, it's very easy to notice the difference in the braking simply by being a passenger.
R-62's brake much smoother. Train operator will pull a brake, and you won't feel as though he ever lets go. On the R-62A equipment, you often feel a lunging sensation, as though the T/O has released the brakes when making a station stop. You'll feel the T/O pull brake, then release some air to get to the end of the station, and suddenly it feels like the T/O has let all the air go, and you think he's going to overrun the station. You'll also notice as a passenger that the 62A's will "take off" as soon as the T/O gets indication, whereas the 62's are a little slower leaving the station, but certainly pick up speed.
But this is understandable b/c there are differences between the R-62's and R-62A's braking and propulsion that can be noticed even by a passenger.
TrainDude's point is very clear though. Both 68's have the same propulsion and the same braking systems, so you shouldn't be able to notice the difference between the two cars, except by looking at the car numbers. At least that's what I think he's saying. It's late and I'm very tired.
Well, there are cosmetic differences besides the car numbers.
And they definitely sound different.
Here we go again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Which of my claims do you contest?
David, I dispute none of your 'claims'. I was simply expressing my disgust with your small-minded minutia - reprising the eternal discussion of the monumental cosmetic differences between the R-68 and the R-68A. After this, may I suggest a discussion about the differences between a #2 pencil and a #3 pencil when taking mechanically scored tests?
David, I dispute none of your 'claims'. I was simply expressing my disgust with your small-minded minutia - reprising the eternal discussion of the monumental cosmetic differences between the R-68 and the R-68A.
If you don't care for this discussion, I'm curious why you're participating in it.
When I see a discussion that doesn't interest me, I don't read it, let alone post in it.
After this, may I suggest a discussion about the differences between a #2 pencil and a #3 pencil when taking mechanically scored tests?
I'm afraid I haven't taken one of those tests since 1996, although I did administer a few in 1999, so I can't make any up-to-date observations. Besides, this isn't PencilTalk.
"If you don't care for this discussion, I'm curious why you're participating in it."
As I recall, I was involved in the thread long before you popped up with your 'contribution'.
My 'contribution' was a clarification of (or correction to) another poster's claim that "you shouldn't be able to notice the difference between the two cars, except by looking at the car numbers." There may not be differences in terms of speed or acceleration, but there are differences in terms of appearance and sound.
Now, if, for whatever reason, you're not interested in reading my posts on this topic, I remind you that the decision of whether to read or respond to my posts in this thread is up to you.
I certainly don't see why I'm being scolded for making (on-topic, factually correct) posts that happen to bore Train Dude.
You know - you're right. Why don't you list all of the cosmetic differences between the R-68 and the R-68A that you know about. I'm sure 1/2 of America can't wait to hear this again. By the way, let me add one to your list that you likely don't know. The R-68A flooring has embossed areas at each door opening except on the cars with the black flooring. Better add that to your list - quick.
You know - you're right. Why don't you list all of the cosmetic differences between the R-68 and the R-68A that you know about. I'm sure 1/2 of America can't wait to hear this again.
I direct you to the archives, where many of the differences are mentioned. If you have any specific questions, shoot.
It is the reflectivity of the pencil. If you look at the bubbles at an an gle you will see they reflect light. I always check my test to see if I MADE IT DARK ENOUGH TO relect light.(sorry about caps, don't have time to change)
Did the R-68* have the exact same DC motor?
Unless things have changed, the R-68 and R-68A both have four Westinghouse 1447J motors per car.
David
Not only do the two cars use the same traction motors (model WH1447J)but the trucks are interchangable and it's not uncommon to find R-68A trucks on R-68 cars or vice-versa. (There are differences in the pipe clamping but generally R-68 trucks are numbered 23XXX and R-68A trucks are numbered 24XXX) Just in case you were going to ask.
Doesn't this discussion come up every 6 months? It's absolutely amazing how the folks who are always here can bring up the same topic with regularity.
Or, is there a "Magic Railfan Dectector System" on R68's that inserts a dropping resistor into the propulsion circuits only when a railfan is on the cars?
Makes as much sense as anything else.
Actually, train operators have special operating instructions.
Special Rule #14D: When operating R-68 equipment & if it appears that a railfan is checking speed or acceleration, the train operator must take care to give the impression that the R-68 is slower, both in acceleration and in maximum speed, than other, similar equipment.
What's the penalty for double-clutching? :)
Yo! Coming on up to Branford? Bring a ball-pein and I'll raise you a 5/8 inch wrench.
Is there an RCI in the house? Moo.
-Stef
"Yo! Coming on up to Branford?"
As much as I'd hoped to do Branford or even Hoboken this year, my family situation is somewhat turbulent. Have a great time for mee, though & please take pictures..........
I guess this rule really was written after all :)
Too funny!
--Mark
Do you have that on something made by NYCT Press?
All R68's are "fast". The problem is it takes forever to achieve that speed. If you want to "fly" on an R68, the Manhattan bound 60th St. tube (N/W) is the place, with gravity helping out.
The last 5 times I've the Q on R-68* all the way to the end at 57th all the TOs have written the PA down on the car defect sheet.
What is the problem officially caused by?
Well a dead giveaway would be the side destination signs, of course the R-46s have the electronic ones while the R-68s and R-68as still have the curtain version. But perhaps the friend did not notice the signs.
Acording to a report by NY1 News, the TWU walked out of negotiations with the MTA today after the MTA refused to negotiate changes to its disciplinary procedures. Note that the MTA denies that the union walked out. The full story is accessible at ny1.com.
As I see it, the fact that the negotiations seem to be in trouble this early does not bode well for straphangers, who might have to deal with service interruptions as well as a higher fare. Hopefully everyone will calm down and go back to the table.
Based on the TWU's demands, as well as recent developments in this negotiations and others, I agree with you Huak, that it doesn't look good.
If anyone has any inside insight/info on the TWU-MTA negotiations, please post it or email me. If you email me, it will be kept strictly confidential, if that is an issue.
Thanks,
Matt
Let's not declare the sky falling just yet. Rank & File sentiment does not lean towards a strike. Let's not forget that the disciplinary process does not touch more than half of the workforce. Wait till we get to the issue of funding for medical coverage. That should be exciting.
"Let's not forget that the disciplinary process does not touch more than half of the workforce."
I'm not in TWU, but I think that in most unions the disciplinary process is important b/c anyone could get disciplined. Even if less than half of the workforce gets written up, statistically speaking there are a lot of discipline issues with the MTA and TWU, in terms of raw number of discipline issued per year. Furthermore, any employee whose supervisor has an axe to grind with them could write them up--that's why fair discipline is such a big trade union issue.
And what part of the current disciplinary grievance process - which, incidently, was agreed to in prior collective bargaining agreements, is unfair to the hourly employee? Your statement sounds prejudicial.
It is MUCH worse in some departments than others. Traffic checkers averaged 7 instances per person over a two year period. They for instance are at the mercy of coustomre complaints. Management has a reason for following up on customer complaints. OTOH they are not there to start giving directions to the Zoo or taking cusotmer Metrocard gripes if they did they would not do there job right.
The breakdown by dept is available.
What are they there for.
Ooops. What are they there for?
They are part time workers that do the passenger counts. They are not C/R or Station Agents, they are not in uniform or get any real training.
The TA uses them instead of the computer system, because they don't trust it.
When I get the computer report that 32,000 folks got on one bus at noon, I have the same problem.
>>> When I get the computer report that 32,000 folks got on one bus at noon, I have the same problem. <<<
Particularly if it says they moved all the way to the rear of the bus. :-)
Tom
The real scary ones are the NEGITIVE passengers :-(
Maybe I should be quite, I may be an employee soon & the party line is the system work perfectly.
Also they do "On Time Performation" & the rumor that Traffic Checker might be wearing uniform soon & becoming a full time workers.
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
I wouldn't worry too much about the union walking out. Each side has to talk tough and flex their muscles. Negotiations will be in trouble right down to the wire. It is simply a part of the whole process. NYCT vs. TWU has never been settled till the last moment and it will be no different this time or any other time in the future.
The management will be sure to push Roger because he got wounded in the "private" bus strike.
Management will push roger but not because he's been wounded. roger has been contentious and hostile over every issue. he's shown a complete lack of willingness to peacefully resolve things except on his terms. From an outsider's viewpoint, local 100 seems very divided right now. If roger were to call for a strike - I believe he'd be voted down by a wide margin. Watch for mr. toussaint to make much noise but walk on egg shels.
Interesting view point. If true negotiations may become very difficult & protracted. George Pataki is probably very happy that nothing is going to happen until AFTER he gets re-elected. Then watch him push all the cost of the new contract away from his desk.
Anybody remember what he & Virgal did to us ?
I say Pataki has to be involved,or we strike day before election day and say its Pataki's fault.
If TWU didn't FORMALLY endorse Paturkey, you guys are going to be in a WORLD of hurt. :(
Look at what 1199 got.
Ain't no way it's going to happen, maybe for Christmas.
Some day ... SOME day the unions will finally figure out that ending a contract a few days before ELECTION DAY might get a better roll in the barrel next time. Nah.
its all strategy and tactics. In SF, TWU 250A's Muni MOU cycles a year into the Mayor's four year term so as to have a disconnect from the election cycle. And the stategy worked until several years back when a charter amendment was passed by the citizenry circumscribing what the city could "give" in contracts.
Fortunately New York doesn't have to do that. The unions fall over all by themselves. :)
1199 lit the way with a new tactic - sell out to the politicians and reap a harvest. It worked. For them.
All but for former 1199 President, Stanley Hill. If memory serves me correctly, he's a regular at the 'Arts & Crafts' classes at Allenwood.
How much ya wanna bet he became a "trustee?" Moo. :)
A trustee? That guy is so crooked, they'll have to screw him into the ground to bury him. Yeah but I suppose anything is possible.
C'mon, bro ... politics works in mysterious ways. Surely you've seen enough yourself. Pony up cash at the correct time coordinates for the right guy at the right time and rocks will actually float. I've seen it myself! :)
"All but for former 1199 President, Stanley Hill. If memory serves me correctly, he's a regular at the 'Arts & Crafts' classes at Allenwood. "
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Stanley Hill was Executive Director of District Council 37, AFSCME, rather than head of 1199 SEIU.
Also, anyone have any insight on the TWU going to Ireland? See article at
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nysub102960010oct10,0,3654057.column?coll=ny%2Dny%2Dcolumnists
You're correct about Stanley Hill - my bad!!!! Point is the same though. As for Roger's 'pilgrimage'/junket on the backs of the TWU members - after the pilgrimage, whether he sounds like Mike Quill or like Papa Doc - the TWU members might be better of using their dues money for astro-glide.
A walk out on a the eve of a 3 day weekend is sort of bogus but interesting gameplay.
He had laid the foundation and he is taking two of his main men.
I don't mind the Union picking up the tab, it's the paying full pirce that irks.
FYI from SF Prop E passed by 62%
>>(o) The voters find that unscheduled employee absences adversely affect customer service. Accordingly, not later than January 1, 2001, the agency shall create a comprehensive plan for the reduction of unscheduled absences. In addition, the Agency shall take all legally permitted steps to eliminate unexcused absences. The Agency shall have no authority to approve any memorandum of understanding or other binding agreement which restricts the authority of the Agency to administer appropriate discipline for unexcused absences.
(p) Before adopting any tentative agreement reached as a result of negotiations, mediation or arbitration, the Agency shall, at a duly noticed public meeting, disclose in writing the contents of such tentative agreement, a detailed analysis of the proposed agreement, a comparison of the differences between the agreement reached and the prior agreement, and an analysis of all costs for each year of the term of such agreement. Such tentative agreement between the Agency and employee organization shall not be approved by the Agency until 30 days after the above disclosures have been made.<<
a little 'sunshine' on the process.
BTW one of the clauses struck from previous contract language was a prohibition on management using radio/electronic tracking of vehicles for disciplinary purposes.
Good old Californey ... pity they didn't put leashes on their lawgivers instead. I'd like to see something like that applied here in New York with respect to passing a budget on time. :)
Yup - it's great to have big brass ones when posting on a website. When you walk the walk and pay $200.00 per day in Taylor Law fines along with the lost salary, then ........................ well you know what I mean.
I hope to see you next Wednesday at the Motors meeting at Union Hall.
Keep hoping. I plan on attending my first union meeting in October for Local 497. I hear they do get more than 5 people per meeting. 3000 T/Os and all we can do is bring up motions to lower quorums. Phooey!
I do, too, hope that talks go better!! I hope both sides can come to a fair, just agreement. I mean I want better pay like the LIRR, MNRR and PATH guys get. I mean I bust my @$$ to earn the money I get, and I had LIRR employees actually agree that what we do at NYCT is much harder than what they do on the LIRR or MNRR, and I do want the pay to show for that!! I too want improvements to the benefits, and I do agree that some of MTA's disciplinary actions need to be changed. At the same time I don't wanna see the fare go up because $2.00 for a ride on consistently disrupted service do to crazy G.O.s will not hold well with the people, and as an operating employee, I don't want to have to deal with the added frustration and anger the public will have. I know I would be angry too if I was a customer having to pay $2.00 for a trip on a train that might NOT be going: a). where it is supposed to b).where I want to go when normally it would. And I, in every little way, am not even trying to be docked 2 days pay for every 1 day of strike because of all the Taylor Law B.S.!! I got personal interests I gotta look out for, and ever single cent I earn counts!!To hell with all the strike talk I say to them all just sit down, with calmed heads and full ability to use efficiently the brains God gave them, and come to a reasonable contract where both sides will be happy with the outcome.
Has anyone ever seen an off peak 5 train to E 238 Street at around 10 am on the upper White Plains Road line?
It does (or at least has) exist and it is also on the schedule
5 line confusion even occurred on middays on the 5 line
an interesting story
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000051
I saw something with a circle 5 on it one day (9/13/02) at around 2:30pm - 3:00pm at Allerton Avenue making a stop at the station, then continuing on like it was in service (northbound)
So the diamond 5 is also showing that the diamond is not "rush hours only" even the diamond 5 has run outside of rush hour, making it more than just a rush hour only service, despite what the signs say.
Trains are schedueled to run to New Lots, and that's not even on the map. This is a bonus if anything. The sign says a 5 isn't supposed to come, but if it does, be pleasantly surprised (if you need a lex train) or ignore it (if you need 7th av).
it's going northbound only(if it still runs), so getting the Lex from Bronx Park East at 10 am won't work, you can only go to 238 Street
They just passed me on the way up 60 seconds ago, pulling through Prospect Ave...
-Stef
OK - We all know the Redbirds are going fast. My question is?
A train of R142's just entered service, making a train of Redbirds surplus. How toes the TA decide EXACTLY which 10 Redbirds to take out. Who decides which Redbirds go today, and which cars last another few month's. Do they look at maintance records? Do they look at any repairs needed right now? Is it random?
MBDF and rust mostly.
Typo: MDBF (Mean Distance Between Failures) for the cars to be retired.
...And their SMS mileage & interval cycles.
Sometimes, the cars will tell YOU when they're ready to go swimming.
Case in point: On Tuesday morning, I took a "farewell" joyride on a #4 Redbird train led by 9260. Things were fine from 161 to 86, but then neither the T/O nor the C/R was unable to get indication. After a 10-minute delay or so, the train was discharged and that was all she wrote. Now will 9260 be back on the road? Depends on whether that was the responsible car and the nature of the problem. If it was a ground fault somewhere in the miles of bundled wiring contained in 510 feet of subway train (a common ailment at this stage), it may not be worth the time or effort at this point to track it down and patch it up.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I've disposed of maintainance records of hundreds of Redbirds. It had been assumed that Bombardier would provide trainsets of reliability....the 'Reef Program' appeared to be a Godsend. The first wave may have met the fishies based on estimated milage/age/overall condition. The second wave was more effected by MDBF and TTs...more reliable trainsets were on their way and having old trains fail means revenue loss. The third wave was SMS cycles and direct inspection...TA already knew the jam they were in...#2 line had already given up most of the fleet to #5...many cars were 'flagged' for repair and 180th Street crew put em all back together...except for married pairs that had combos of thin flanges/wheels, burned out air conditioning compressor motors/major Freon leaks, damaged traction motor commutators and the like...extensive paired problems that would take an excessive time for repair (replaced by reserve cars.) The last wave will be the end but it will NOT be anytime soon...major problems that cannot be overcome (and the crew ressurects the Deadbirds) are sent to East 180th Street Shops. I've had a few doozies...every propulsion problem fixed leads to another one on a car I inspected Monday...eating all of my day out save break and lunch. CI Peter
Okay, this has me stumped - for the past 2 nights, Letterman has been talking about a $.50 subway fare hike that just happened - I don't recall hearing anything about such a thing in the news, reading it in the papers, or here! SO I just checked the MTA website, and it says the fare is $1.50, like it's been for the past 7 years -
SO what in god's name is Letterman talking about?!
And no, this wasn't a syndicated show from 1995 or anything because the rest of the stuff he talked (joked) about were current issues and stuff. Besides, the last fare hike was $.25, not 50.
Its a joke. Hes tryuing top gauge publuic reacotion and whatr will be said on the news IF fare hike was implemented.
There have been rumors of a fare hike on here, and also on the news for months now. I heard the show you are talking about. However, I am surprised Letterman is bringing it up now, because it's old news, and it may or may not happen after the election year. -Nick
Nobody is raising fares before the election.
Right. But three days after the election, all bets are off.
Its gotta go up sometime.
An increase from 15c to 20c is the same as an increase from 150c to 200c.
Elias
[...for the past 2 nights, Letterman has been talking about a $.50 subway fare hike that just happened....]
What does Letterman know; he has never seen the inside of anything other than a limousine, and he wouldn't deign to - gasp! - actually ask his staff about the subway fare (or the time of day, or anything else).
After losing $4000 in his office the other day, He might have to take MetroNorth home.
"What does Letterman know; he has never seen the inside of anything other than a limousine..."
That's not entirely true. Letterman was famous for collecting speeding tickets in between Rockefeller Center and his Connecticut home earlier in his career. We're all probably much better off for the fact that he is now driven to work.
I believe the illustrious Biff Henderson is a regular on MN's Harlem line after the show each night.
CG
I used to watch Jay Leno for a few years (wasted years). But now I am back to the Letterman show, always hysterically funny and energetic. And I can relate to it!
The Tonight show on NBC used to be good, but lately the whole NBC network is just awful and oh so lame.
Also I like the shot of the tried and true NYCT RTS in the Letterman show intro! :-)
Neither joke nor rumor. The MTA has said that its financial house "IS A MESS!" They said that if the state & federal governments didn't come through with more $$$$$, a fare hike is the "LAST RESORT"! That info is current as of 4 PM today.
Newsday's reporting
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr1010,0,7421822.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dheadlines
Interestingly, Newsday reports that LIRR has been gaining ground on Metro-North in terms of on-time performance.
The Daily News take on the subject:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/25740p-24348c.html
This move has long been anticipated. I see some very positive results coming from this consolidation/reorganization.
First - capital projects will be more global in scope. For example, the reconstruction of the Flatbush Avenue terminal should have been done as a a re-building of the downtown brooklyn Transportation hub with simultaneous rebuilding of IRT, BMT and LIRR facilities. It should have also included a bus ramp to reduce congestion of Flatubsh Avenue.
Second - Regional Rail Service. Montauk to Mystic for example? How about Patchague to Poughkeepsie? only minor technical problems would need to be resolved.
Third - Reigonal bus service.
Finally, if they do flatten out the org. chart, that would be a real plus.
What kind of power for a Montauk to Mystic run? Diesel? DM?
Seems to me like a ferry might be a better way to get from Montauk to Mystic...
Mark
DE30, FL9AC, Genesis - whatever they want.
Well, North/East of NH that's Shoreline East, aka CT DOT. Is the MTA going after it too ?
I severely doubt it. Even the Metro-North section in Connecticut is jointly owned by CDOT.
:-) Andrew
I say go one step further: Abolish NJT, abolish Shore Line East, abolish PATH and get rid of the MTA. Create a new agency called RTA to run the five areas:
Railroads-LIRR, MNRR, SHore Line,PATH(if not in subway)
Subways-NYCT Subway, SIR< PATH (If not in Railroad)
Bus- operators, etc keep seniority at their depot
Capital Programs
Bridges and Tunnels
Have a unified fare system.
All cuurent MTA and PATH and private employees would be retained under my concept.
But make sure that A and B divisions on the subway never meet. I think my panicked walks up and down Lexington Avenue in the rain to switch lines should be protected on the National Historic Register.
:-)
yeah, mr. t. Next they'll want Branford...
...then Warehouse Point...
...then Seashore...
I see one problem: If they create MTA Subway wouldnt it mean that the current NYCT subway would have to comply with FRA or would they then exempt the current SIRTOA system.
If SIR is added to the subway, would they then add turnstiles to the rest of the system and if they add their people to the current NYCT would we then be able to officially use our pass there.
Bus: If they do add LI Bus and the private lines our Bee Line would we then be able to use our pass there or would bus be removed from our pass
None of the above has to happen. All it means is that Subways and SIR will report to the same managers.
This is another affront to the wonderful Heritage that the PRR left the New York region in the form of the Long Island Rail Road. Contaminating the pure LIRR spirit with the New York Central inspired Metro North trash will only servce to diminish the Quality of service in Long Island. This blasphomy of mixing NYC and PRR blood will not go unpunished and I predict that a plague of divine proportions will afflict the new beast.
yeah and the "pure PRR tradition" of focus on the customer will triumph right? LIRR has had an "excellent" record of customer service, punctuality, pristine equipment standards for decades too.
"route of the square wheel"
Don't get your panties in a bunch. It sounds like management reorganization and that's it. Besides, NYC and PRR are long gone and no one cares about them.
Besides, NYC and PRR are long gone and no one cares about them.
AHEM! Maybe you young whippersnappers don't, but those of us who are old enough to remember REAL railroads do :-) (And, even though JM and I rarely see eye-to-eye, the relative merits of the PRR and NYC is one thing we DO agree on - and he's just a young whippersnapper himself.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wasn't trying to downplay the importance of PRR and NYC, I'm sure they contributed a lot to the present day system. I was trying to say that it's not like they are going to rip up MNRR and LIRR tracks and start all over. No one *cares* about them meaning that they are just talking names When was the last time anyone said they are going to hop on a PRR train? More people care about the IRT, BMT, and IND names more than the other two.
I doubt we'll see much of an effect in what the public calls those lines for a long time. Remember, the MTA eliminted the IRT, IND and BMT in 1968....
MTA procurement offered to begin preparing GCT yard:
http://www.mta.info/mta/procure-esa-solicitations.htm
The washington Post story on the suspected sniper attack in Virginia:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4858-2002Oct10.html
Statistically, drivers of cars are at greater risk (albeit at gas stations) than Metrorail customers.
Personally,
I think it's a diversion, just like the shooting in Fredericksburg. Draw all the attention over into Virginia, then cross back over the river into Maryland and strike again, my guess, back in Montgomery County. He (assuming it's a he) seems to be "ballsy" enough to go back to "Square One" and strike again, just to prove he can do it.
Just my personal opinion,
If these new sightings of a white van are more than just the fantasies of excited witnesses, the continued use of the same vehicle will eventually get him caught.
Tried to access that site yesterday and again just now, got a "Document contained no data" error message. Has this site given up the ghost, or is it just Tripod being screwy? (Hopefully not the former, I kinda liked the site).
I've never heard of this site....what's the address (assuming it comes back up)? I'd be curiious to see it.
Thanks,
Mark
http://members.tripod.com/subways2020/
It's back up!
Has anyone seen the brochure being handed out by the MTA (I got mine at 34th/6th) entitled: "WELCOME ABOARD THE MOST ADVANCED SUBWAY CAR EVER BUILT". It ONLY shows pictures of the R-143 throughout, yet when you open it up, on the inside, in big bold letters it says: "You'll be riding in these cars on the L, M, 2, 4, 5, 6". This is the kind of inaccuracy I've come to expect from the media. Pick one up if you can. Hilarious.
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw those (and have a bunch of them).
I believe that the picture was intended to be a general illustration of the new cars rather than a specific one.
Besides besides us railfans who is going to really know the difference? The average subway rider wouldn't care just as long as a train comes and they can get on.
True, I realize that it is supposed to be a generalization, but the R-142s do have red on the fronts. I think that even non-railfans notice this and they could have put pictures of each in the brochures and shown pictures with the front route signs lit.
Peace,
ANDEE
To the average JOE the r-142 r-143 look alike.
Of course not to anyone who reads this board
Sorry, I disagree. The prevailing theory on this board that anyone who is not a railfan is some non-observant schmuck is wrong, IMO. People do not have to be railfans to notice differences in equipment.
Peace,
ANDEE
So, will people care? It's just a generalization. Passengers aren't actually going to ring up the MTA and say, 'Hey, your illustration is wrong on that new train brochure of yours!'. One of those most irrelevant things ever.
>>>One of those most irrelevant things ever. <<<
Hardly, at least it is on topic, unlike many posts I've seen here.
Peace,
ANDEE
I understand that, just pointing out what we dedicated posters have to unfortunately resort to get people to post...
Agreed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, even if its the average straphanger,I'm sure they could tell UNLESS people CAN'T/DON'T notice that 1 type of train has 3 doors on(R142/142A) and another has 4 doors(R143), and the IRT cars are about 51', then there's a problem.
Then again, if a yellow schoolbus showed up and platformed, folks would just get on it if the doors opened up. Ask anyone who's run a work train. :)
HEH...reminds of a story my father told me about when he worked for MABSToA. He was sitting at the wheel of a bus that was being towed. While waiting for a light, sure enough someone tried to get on.
Peace,
ANDEE
I still see it every day.
People try to open the doors on the 75' cars.
The average person does not even realize that the irt cars are much smaller than the BMT/IND cars
All they know is that the train doors open and they climb aboard.
Many people are not all that observent.
In my case I noticed right away the first time I steped aboard the 6 which at the time had the r62's that they was something different than the r62's on the 4 line
You are correct with all those points.
When at a station don't think like a subfan for a minute:
Not many people know/care that an F train can't physically run on the Lexington Ave line.
A BART train could run down Central Park West and most passengers will think, "Hey, the train is here", wait for the doors to open, get on, and not give it a second thought.
Most people waiting for a train at Roosevelt Ave watching a train pull in will not say, "Wow, that's a R68A instead of the usual R46 that I usually get onto!"
They wouldn't even say, "Hey that's an R44 pulling into the Myrtle-Broadway station!"
All they really care about is that the train they get on takes them from point A to point be, and that it's clean and comfortable. It's not necessarily that they don't care, it's just that they are totally indifferent to it.
And PA announcments. But passengers before the 1950s didn't have that luxery.
NOT REALLY.WMTA has better,and faster rail units.
HUH? What the hell are you talking about?
Peace,
ANDEE
Watch your tone there buddy.The D.C Metro has better train sets,thats all.
The text in the ad refers to the new NYCT cars' technological sophistication. Whether the WMATA cars are, or are not, "better" than NYCT's new equipment is a matter of personal opinion.
David
and speaking from that point,I'm asking you... which are ''better''?
I like the new NYCT subway cars, especially the R-143, just fine. I haven't ridden any of the recent WMATA cars, so I have no opinion about them, but since I like the older WMATA equipment it stands to reason that I'd like the new stuff, too.
David
I like them myself,and I'm not putting them down in anyway.Im just saying that DC railcars ''appear'' to be better.That maybe an unfair statement,maybe.. because DC's system is more like a commuter railroad than a ''true subway''like NEW YORK's.All in all,the 142/143cars are a beautiful piece of design work,and took way too long to get here....[now,if they would only run them on the J/Z,I'd be really happy]:)
Obviously the person who did the typesetting doesn't know the difference between the "A" division and the "B" division.
#3 West End Jeff
That pamphlet was the biggest laugh I had ever read!! The train ads are funnier, though, when they say (and I quote) "they're the last word in subway design!!" Last word maybe....but no one said if the last word was a good word!! When they are not going into emergency for no reason, not having doors that won't open, or having pull-aparts where the train loses 2 cars on a 10-car train and has the computer registering all 10 cars, they are good trains.....but as I said the "last word".....heh...as I stated who ever said the last word was a good one?
Actually it's the kind of inaccuracy you'd expect from the higher ups in NYCT....the same higher ups who print out route service changes booklets that are so full of inaccuracies it isn't even funny, and thus makes G.O.s so damn confusing to the people and the crews.
Hmmm R143's on the IRT? Maybe they're trying to widen the IRT tunnels :)
Its clear that the MTA is planning to convert the portions of the IRT built to Dual Contract specifications to Full IND/BMT MEASUREMENTS and capture those segments, much to the delight to the pro IND/BMT rightwing element. Former IRT riders will be required to take an oath of alligience to the dominant size, and correct cars. Cells of holdouts will be sought out forced to make public statements favoring full width cabs and OPTO evening service. If they still relish ideas of IRT size cars the will be made to wear IND/BMT Lettered T-shirts and socks.
avid
Putting the larger issue of whether the project is worthwhile aside for a moment, has anyone heard a good explanation for why now?
I think the answer comes in the NY Times' laudatory editorial this morning. Pataki knows the project is beloved by the Times, and giving the impression of action can't hurt his effort to win their endorsement again (despite his failure to achieve most of the goals they set out for him when endorsing him in 1998). This could also explain the ASTRONOMICAL price he agreed to pay -- $230 million for the building alone? If timing wasn't an issue, Pataki could presumably have worked with Sens. Schumer and Clinton to arrange a deal like the one we got for Governor's Island.
At least he found a deep pocket -- the Port Authority -- to foot most of the bill. They don't have anything more important to spend money on right now, do they?
I've heard rumors that there's one (or more) Philadelphia PCC's stored in Brooklyn, supposedly off of 4th Avenue (I realize this doesn't help much). Does anyone have any idea what this is about, or is the consensus that this car doesn't exist/isn't there anymore?
Frank Hicks
Yes, and a photo of it was either posted or linked on this very message board. Would the person who brought us the photo then please be so kind as to show it to us again?
Mark
Frank,
The car is there, it's not rumor. Even being in Brooklyn and a
trolley fan, I haven't visited it as yet. The location is
Fourth Avenue and Union Street. Maybe next week when railfanning
in the city, we will pay it a visit. Also there are a number of
ex Shaker PCCs in storage at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Seen those
from the distance and can verify their existence.
;| ) Sparky
it's there...seen it...took a photo of it...asked someone at SEPTA about it...never heard anything back about it.
It is car 2739. It is next to the old public bath building on 4th Avenue and Union Street. The man who owns it owns 6 more that are still in Philadelphia. His plans are not clear for the car's use. He had tole me something about using it as a cafe but that was 2+ years ago and I have heard nothing since.
Hope this helps.
-Mark
The Bath House was suppose to be a club with the PCC in it.
So far nothing has been done.
Frank,
This car is at the "Brooklyn Lyceum", which is some sort
of night club. They have an extensive web site but it doesn't
mention the trolley. A few years ago, this guy had a whole
presentation there on saving this old bath house and the trolley(s)
he was planning to use for various purposes.
Hello All.
I was hoping that, given the popularity of this bulletin board, someone might have info or a source on this intriguing operation...
While at the recent trolley meet in King of Prussia PA, I purchased an original slide of a small single-truck electric freight motor. The slide was dated Dec 18, 1958, and the caption read "King Philip Finishing, Lonsdale, RI". No other info, including any photo credit. The motor appears in-service (pole raised, with boxcars in the background).
My guess, based on the background, is that this was some sort of an industrial switching operation (perhaps to a furniture manufacturer) that used a trolley freight motor, quite late for such an operation (1958). Unfortunately, there was only one image of this operation available, and it's a close-up of the motor without enough background to give any context (other than a loading platform).
Does anyone have any details, particularly on the fate of the motor?
THANX!
CONRAD MISEK
Quincy, MA
Conrad, you might try dropping a line to the local historical society. There are a couple of rail lines in Lonsdale that have been abandoned, one of which has been turned into a rail-trail, but I don't know anything about their origins. King Philip, as I'm sure you know, was an Indian chief who terrorized the settlers in Massachusetts and Rhode Island in 1675-1676 - the "last gasp" of Indian opposition to the white man's advances in the region, and a number of roads have been named for him... looks like a business as well. Although there were some furniture, textile, and paper manufacturers in the area, all of whom would have a "finishing" process, there were a large number of foundries (brass mostly) in the area, and the process of casting and polishing brass for lamps, doorknobs, etc. is called "finishing", so my guess is that was the type of industry being served.
Sorry I can't be more help than that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A warning to those buying Metro fare cards on the streets.
Metro has a new system to track fare cards bought from its machines with stolen credit cards. The transit agency has always been able to turn off a stolen credit card, but now the fare cards are tied with an identification number to the credit card that bought it. That means the fare cards can now be deactivated.
A staff member told the Metro Board this will block the secondary market for reselling fare cards on the street and on E-Bay. A Metro Transit Police detective says people often complain to them that those fare cards don't work. He says those secondary buyers aren't the thieves, but are the ones paying the price.
Seems like George Warrington is pushing for a second tunnel under the Hudson. This is the NY Times’ version: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/10/nyregion/10TUNN.html (Free subscription required).
This is the Star Ledger version http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-2/1034241353283820.xml (no subscription required).
I would hope that they can get by with a minimum of environmental impact studies. I think these are what delay projects for ever and seem to be money wasters.
John
Also from the Star Ledger: NJ Transit is starting on connecting Broad Street and Penn Station:
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-2/1034241356283820.xml
Of course, this isn’t news to anyone who has been reading the Capital Plan.
John
This will be great. It will now be much easier to visit that fantastic library or to get to Newark Bears' games at the Den by means of the PATH train, which goes to Newark Penn Station.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Newark Bears -- 2002 Atlantic League Champions
Great news.
This will be the first phase of a new light rail system which is currently being called Neweark Elizabeth rail Link. NERL will connect the city subway to Newark broad Street NJT Rail station, Newark Airport and the (Broad Street) ELizabeth Rail Station in donwtown Elizabeth.
Check out the NJT site for more info.
When I got to Main Street Terminal on the 7 line early this afternoon, when I got to the mezzanine I saw people and some desk, accompanied with a 'NYPIRG' sign advocating for people to register and vote against the fare strike. Obviously, I placed theoretical in the subject since there is no fare hike as of now. What is up with this group? Who are they and what is your opinion on this?
There should be no hike. I can see if it's $.25 cents but $.50?! What else does Mayor Stoonad want?
He rejected our plans for new stadiums for the Mets and Yankees, he hiked the price of cigarettes to $7.50 a pack, taken control over the public schools, didn't want to do a darn thing about the NYCDOT Strike a few months back and who knows they may go back on strike in March 2003 b/c of the same thing once again-NO CONTRACT? And the best of all a toll on ALL of the East River Crossings?!
NO HIKE THANK YOU! HE'S GETTING OUT OF HAND!
#2155 7 Flushing Local
You might look higher up the political food chain than Mayor Mike for the causes behind no money.
Now if we REALLY wanna kick Saddam's butt, why not we drop the Bush Economic Advisor Team in Baghdad? Iraq'd be teats-up in a WEEK and not a shot fired!
I can see if it's $.25 cents but $.50?!
It shouldn't be 25¢. $1.75 is unwieldly, at least they should make it $1.70 or $1.80.
He rejected our plans for new stadiums for the Mets and Yankees
So first you go off against the city raising more revenue to cover its costs (fare hike). Then you go off in favor of a plan that would WASTE precious public dollars on a corporate welfare scheme?
While I disagree with him on a number of other issues, I SALUTE Mayor Bloomberg for putting an end to the ridiculous Mets and Yankees stadium plans.
BASEBALL IS NOT A PUBLIC SERVICE!
Just as a matter of interest, Pig, why do you conssider $1.75 unwieldy, given that there is a 25-cent coin? $1.75 is fewer coins than $1.70 or $1.80.
Another thought here, is that come the next fare rise, the prices for buying tokens could be different (even before discounts) from the prices for the same number of fares on a MetroCard.
I have to agree: Baseball (or Football, or Basketball, or Hockey…) is not a public service. At least Bloomberg had the cojones to say “No.” In New Jersey, we have the Sharpe James Memorial Pork-Palace that looks like it will be built in Newark for the benefit of the Nets and Devils.
John
Let's assume the fare went to $2.00, with Metrocard discounts bringing it back down to, say $1.80.
The fare would be lower than many rides on Washington Metrorail. It would be cheaper than a fare plus transfer fee on SEPTA in Philadelphia. And, I believe, it would be cheaper than Los Angeles County MTA. MBTA in Boston would still be cheaper, as would the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority.
And MTA still gives you much more bang for the buck than any of the above.
The move from $1.50 to $2.00 is proportionally the same as a move from 15 cents to 20 cents.
Before you were paying three nickles and the price went up to four nickles.
Now you are paying three halves, and the price may go up to four halves.
The price of everything else also went up about ten times since then too.
Elias
Good point.
Just as a matter of interest, Pig, why do you conssider $1.75 unwieldy, given that there is a 25-cent coin? $1.75 is fewer coins than $1.70 or $1.80.
Because 10 rides at $1.75 is $17.50. With $1.80, it's $18.00. Since I won't be buying rides in individual units, I don't want that x.50 in there. MORE COINS. It also means that with the 10% bonus, you'd end up with more nickels than now, and how do you handle a 10% bonus for a value that ends in 5? Can Metrocards store balances to the nearest half-cent?
Another thought here, is that come the next fare rise, the prices for buying tokens could be different (even before discounts) from the prices for the same number of fares on a MetroCard.
I can't imagine that they'd keep the token for any price. There is absolutely no need to do so. Eliminating the token with a fare hike is the path of least resistance.
If the token were eliminated I'd be OK with it. I still use them but it's laziness and habit, not absolute necessity.
To anyser your question, NYPRIG or New York Public Research (Something) Group runs the Straphangers Campain. They are the ones that issue the annual state of the subway report and rate each line as to the value of the ride.
They are a nonprofit research group, try www.straphangers.org and you can link to the NYPRIG site. They also have a bulletin board called Riders Dairy that people bitch about the subway.
Some poseter here post there as well.
Text of the Straphanger Campaign appeal:
Dear rider-
Can you help in our efforts to get riders to speak out against a looming fare hike? We'll be handing out tens of thousands of leaflets in the subways in coming weeks to protest a possible $2 fare.
Join us! We will be at subway stations around the city during morning rush-hours over the next three weeks.
Log on to http://www.straphangers.org/farehike/volunteer.php to sign up to volunteer. If you have questions, please call us at 212-349-6460.
For more information, see our fact sheet at http://www.straphangers.org/farehike/farefacts.html and our new subway ad at http://www.straphangers.org/farehike/Sitting%20Down%20721.pdf ).
Thank you for your support and we hope to see you in the field!
Gene Russianoff, Staff Attorney
Neysa Pranger, Coordinator
Michael Hernandez, Field Organizer
Are these people morons, or have they figured out that the V/G/63rd. St. subject no longer generates any interest? If they're gonna sell me on the fallacy of a fare hike, then please give me some statistics as to:
1. How the MTA could best raise the projected income in other ways
or
2. What realistic budget cuts could be made that would be less painful than a fare hike to regular straphangers
Duh.
I rode the number 7 from Woodside LIRR station to Queensboro Plaza and a R62A came in. I hopped on and could not beleive all of the Graffati and Scraffti on the windows. What is the Corona Yard doing that this is not cleaned up?
Nothing more than the other yards previous
couldn't clean up, either?
Quite true, really.
Well, you could count the fact that Corona is a hell of a lot lazier than the rest of the yards. CI, Concourse, Jamaica, I could go on and on. By far, Corona Yard is the worst yard in keeping their cars in order. I mean, the lights on the Redbirds on the 7 line go out for god's sake. Bad.
UHHMM The interior coach lights are supposed to go out when the train crosses a Third Rail gap. Also Corona dosn't have much facilitis. It has to send all its car to CI for any major work.
I alreayd understood that fact. It had nothing to do with the fact that it's an indication that it won't be fixed...not that it doesn't matter.
Yes, that is the underlying problem. Thankfully, it will all be fixed when the current Corona Yard is torn down and a modern one is built. I mean, all those moves from Corona to CI must be annoying and tiring.
Yeah the ML birds are always in better shape than Corona's. Is it also a matter of yard security (Corona has a high yard vandalism rate?).
I'm not sure about yard security. I do concur on the ML 'birds being in better shape than the WF. I wonder why the MTA got rid of the ML first?
Hey SUBWAYSURF, what happended?
In addition to your double post, there's nothing in either! I can't post anything unless I type. A problem, perhaps?
Andee just corrected the word "scratchitti".
Chaohwa
>>What is the Corona Yard doing that this is not cleaned up?<<
What could Corona do ? As soon as they replace the glass, it's scratched. They can spend thousands of dollars replacing glass and making it a full time job, but they'll scratch it up just as quick.
Replacing the glass is more time consuming than cleaning grafitti, Onthejuice can attest to that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Even worse that the cars have either laminated or plexiglass which scratches more easily. Someone correct me on this if i'am wrong.
Someone correct me on this if i'am wrong.
You are right. Actually I remember when I first started noticing the scratchitti on the R42 rebuilds when they were first put in service. The doors were the first to get the scratches. The Storm doors and picture windows didn't get scratched till much later. The reason for this was that the regular doors were a plexiglass and the storm doors and windows were a stronger regular type glass. The side doors would be totally scratched, and usually the railfan windows were unscratched. It wasn't until much later that they decided they could scratch all the windows if they used something sharper.
The exception to this was the R68's. I wonder if the reason the R68's are and always were so severely scratched right from the beginning is because they used weaker plexiglass type windows on all the glass areas in those trains.
What about using Mylar?
>>What about using Mylar?<<
Mylar, Lexan, plexiglass nothing seems to be scratch proof. Seems like a lost cause.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mylar, Lexan, plexiglass nothing seems to be scratch proof. Seems like a lost cause.
Mylar is not scratch proof; it can be easily replaced. Lexan and plexiglass are not scratch resistant but they are shatter resistant. The vandals were shattering the scratch resistant glass windows before they were replaced with lexan.
its so bad you can not shoot a video anymore out the few remaining
railfan window equipped rail-cars that remain !!
another excuse for transverse cabs ?? ............!!
Noticed some graffitti on the stations between Junction and Willets point too. Still not as bad as the Livonia el.
How many R143 Cars are currently running now? I spotted a couple of 8200 series Cars in the Canarsie Yard and 1 Set in service MUed with a 8100 series Set.
-AcelaExpress2005
Re R-143s:
As of October 5, 2002: Total 112 in passenger service. 136 delivered. 212 in the order.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Car number 8229-8236 were doing burn in testing yesterday(10/10), so they migth be in service soon. For some reson there were more R40-42's on the L Yesterday(10/10) then R143's. The hole lower yard of ENY yard was fill of R143's. Dose anyone know if something happen that they might have been pulled from serivce.
Robert
There might have been a problem impacting all 143's, so they would all be pulled and inspected to correct the problem. Happened a few times with the 142's.
You telling me? I was hoping to catch a R143 on the L Wednseday and instead I caught the R42 Car #4888 and the other I forgot. And I saw 8229-8236 in the Canarsie Yard.
-AcelaExpress2005
On Wednesday,10/9,I saw a R143 head car number 8240 just coming out of the ENY Yard at around 7:30PM when the train i was in arrived at Alabama Av.I got off at Essex St then a few mintues later,the same train passed by.i guess they were testing it.
Can anyone tell me whatever happened to the old walkway that went from the downtown side of the 1 line to the Broadway lines? is the walkway still there?...when I walk through from the PATH end to the token/machine vending machine area, you can see something boarded up and a sign saying welcome to HEARLD SQUARE.
Whoever made the decision to close it down, never realized what an inconvenience this is. If security was an issue, they should had it open with limited hours or at the very least, installed video cameras.
As far as I know it is still there, boarded up and closed. For many years it was called the Gimbel's passageway since it abutted that store's basement sales area. Its closing was due to security issues (who pays and who patrols), homeless problems, maintenance, and the closure of Gimbel's itself.
When did that passageway close? I think I vaguely remember it from the mid to late 80's.
About 20 years ago.
---must've been the early 80's then that I remember it....time flys!
The passage was narrow and dingy and had a bend mid-way through so that you couldn't see who or what else might be in it. There was usually a beggar stationed midway in the passage. Once Gimbel's closed its entrances to the passage a walker was trapped on a long passageway with no outlets for the long city block between 6th and 7th.
Not a full bend, just a little zig-zag, but enough of one to create two blind spots where people headed towards Sixth or Seventh Aves. could be blindsided by someone hiding against the passageway's wall (the blind spot was on the right side for pedestrians traveling in both directions).
If there was some way to get the tunnel into the fare control zone, the way the 41st St. tunnel between 7th and 8th or the 14th St. tunnel between 6th and 7th is, then it might be possible to get it reopened. But the design of the IRT express stop at Penn Station and the presence of the PATH station at Herald Square would require far more modifications than was done to get the other two pedestrian tunnels into the fare control area.
The "straw that broke the camel's back" incident which led to the tunnel's closing was a rape which occurred in a different, now closed tunnel, namely the one under Sixth Avenue between the 34th and 42nd Street stations. Had that never happened, however, it's entirely possible that the Penn-Herald Square tunnel would've been closed anyway, most notably because the closing of Gimbel's led to a lack of responsibility for maintenance.
Thast incident in the other passage was well after this passage was closed (and the area rebuilt).
For a map of its location, click here
You can still see light from the corner of the wall. I checked a couple of weeks ago when I worked the D.
In yellow is my idea for fare control. This would get rid of the rest of the homeless in the area as well.
A moving walkway like the one at Court Sq. would help make it safe too. With the areas at both ends of it revitalized, they should really give it another chance.
I was always under the impression that the tunnel was Gimble's property.
I thought the job brought you into what was physically part of Gimble's basement.
Nonetheless it *is* a good place for a tunnel. Maybe when somebody occupies that building something can be done with it again.
Elias
Couldn't resist. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Supposedly there is a show about the Washington Metro tonight. anyone know what time and what channel it's on? Thanks.
Today's been quite the interesting day as far as the subways go.
R142A #4 train 7695 coupled to I dunno what else had some severe technical difficulty as it traveled north to woodlawn this afternoon. The train was playing announcements that were completely wrong, declaring that the express track was bedford park boulevard, moshulu pky, and kingsbridge road. And the doorchimes played continously throught my journey from Utica to 125st. Eventually the C/R killed the announcements and the interior sign. The strip map had all LED's lit too. Oddly enough, the LCD side signs were correct.
Extreme Irony:
R142A #6 Express train car 7250 and R142 #5 ( to Nereid Av) train 63XX both at 125st at around 5:45 this evening. Here's the Irony: Both trains had 1 stuck door leaf in the center doorway of the 6th car. Also, the R142A <6> 7250 that I was on made some bizarre sounding accouncements declaring Zerega avenue to be something that sounded like " Bershovkikan". So picture this: " THis is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 express train. THe next stop is bershovkikan." " Stand cleer of the closing doors please. ( bing bong, bi) ( crunch)".
This car also had a boatload of "Brown" lights.
Is today a full moon for New Tech, or is it just me?
Post your expierences.
I LOVE YOU ALL!!!!!!
All thoughts welcome! :-)
I've seen this on MBTA, when the 01800 series cars were announcing each station stop in sequence, during the ride... so the system would sing: Next stop Central, Next stop Kendall, Next stop Charles/MGH, Next stop Park St and so on until it got to Ashmont and then start again at Alewife -- all during the ride between stations, and regardless of where the train actually was... When the doors opened, it didn't stop doing it either...
I've only seen it happen once.
AEM7
A while back, I was on an R-142A on the #6 at Soundview Ave. The automated announcements sounded like the Chipmunks, I kid you not.
People in my car were snickering in delight.
Bill "Newkirk"
This once happened on a LI Bus CNG as well. I guess the computer gets "stuck I guess". Never happens to sound files on my PC though. If the system gets too busy the audio will just skip.
Are u sure they aren't using tapes in these things?
I seriously doubt that. Tapes are so 'low-tech'.
I was on an R142A 6 train, at Bleeker the c/r cuts in over the transfer announcement for the IND with "transfer to the F,V, and Grand st shuttle". But after he is done the doors just close, no tone and no "stand clear of the closing doors".
Also I saw what looked like an R40M or R42 on the N today. The N seems to be largely R40 Slants now.
I've been on an R142, as I remember, that was consistently announcing the station it had just pulled out of.
I've heard that a few times.
Too funny! I wish I was on that train!
--Mark
LMAO. Guess the MTA can't handle the new technology yet ;-).
Since the MTA is combining everything, Will the following happen?
Since the SIR is now a subway, will it have a rollsign change? And will it be connected to the rest of the subway?
Since the NYC busses are beinbg combined with LI busses, will more busses run to Long Island? And will the MTA interconnect all bus routes to serve all 5 boroughs?
Since the LIRR and MNR are now the same thing, will I have to litteraly give an arm or a leg just to get from Poukipsee to Montauk?
Don't expect anything quick. The New Haven and Harlem Lines of Metro North have been part of the same company for over 35 years now, and they still have different color equipment (not to mention different technology).
the Hudson/Harlem lines by the MTA only
And they always did buy better trains and maintain them better on Metro North than the LIRR.
>>Since the SIR is now a subway, will it have a rollsign change? And will it be connected to the rest of the subway?<<
Who knows, maybe they'll designate it with a route letter. Maybe they'll call it the (T) for Tottenville.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>"Who knows, maybe they'll designate it with a route letter. Maybe they'll call it the (T) for Tottenville"<<
Good one Bill, I'll concur on (T) for Tottenville. Circle and
Diamond peak service. What color for this line?
;| ) Sparky
It's currently dark blue on the map (a bit darker than 8th Av.)
How about they make it the light blue like the JFK express used to be, or maybe they should save that for 2nd Ave Subway......two or three generations from now.
I still harbor fantasies of a 4th Ave. Brooklyn connection with SI being completed some day. If not a tunnel, how hard would it be to run tracks somewhere on the Vz. Bridge?
If that happened then it would be the "R" or perhaps some express variation to SI.
Tracks on the Verrazano Bridge? Not in a million years. (Though it'll probably be 100,000 years for a harbor tunnel)... For both political and engineering reasons. For the latter see the Manhattan Bridge engineering thread (was What Proposed Changes Would You Make) - suspension bridges don't play well with trains!
Besides, the areas on both sides of the Verrazano are heavily built-up and massive amounts of demolition would be needed to run that route. In addition most transportation on SI is oriented toward the ferry, not the bridge, including the existing SIR and most local bus lines - it would be far better to utilize the existing infrastructure.
What would be far more expedient would be a tunnel, somewhat longer (~2 miles across the Harbor as opposed to ~1 mile across the Narrows), from the vicinity of 59th St in Brooklyn to St. George or its vicinity. It could be administered as a passenger tunnel connecting the 4th Ave line to the main SIR line, and for freight which could use the old North Shore line and the Arthur Kill rail bridge.
How about brown for the Dump? Oh no the Nassau lines already have that... :)
I know that the importance of this is lower than the #7 Extension or the 2nd Ave Subway, but is it possible to extend the 8th Ave IND local from WTC to Court St. Doing so would add another way to route trains into Brooklyn.
Directly south of the WTC terminal, the BMT curves onto Church Street.
A flat junction would probably be relatively inexpensive, but would be of limited value -- as a practical matter, regular service would have to use one of the two available routes but wouldn't be able to use both.
A flying junction would be quite expensive.
I'm not sure feeding more lines into the Montague tunnel makes sense, anyway. The two-track tunnel is already fed by two Manhattan lines, and I believe the trains that run through it are the emptiest trains to cross the East River.
Assuming a flying junction, the only service pattern I can think of that would be somewhat useful would terminate either the N or the R at Whitehall and have the E take its place in Brooklyn. I doubt it's worth the money.
Shortly after 9/11, we had a similar discussion. At the time I was in favor, since I was under the impression that both subway lines were in bad shape and that there was nothing left in the area, so subway construction would have been on the cheap side. I was wrong.
The court st he is referring to (I believe) is the present transit museum.
Yes, this could be done. But not by extending from the WTC station. Rather, the tracks that head to WTC (after the C branches onto the "A"), there is a provision for a line to run across town on Worth St. I believe that using this you would be able to connect the 2 lines (Not necessarily running completely down Worth St.)
I've thought of this connection whenever I'm on a A train that gets held up before entering Canal.
If by any chance, an LIRR extension from Flatbush to WTC would be seriously considered, they should think about building this connection at the same time and make the tunnel bi-level (a la East side connection).
I'm not sure feeding more lines into the Montague tunnel makes sense, anyway. The two-track tunnel is already fed by two Manhattan lines, and I believe the trains that run through it are the emptiest trains to cross the East River.
No, that honor belongs to the trains crossing the Williamsburg Bridge.
Again with the Eastern division diss......
Again with the Eastern division diss.....
On the contrary, the 14th St tunnel service is the most crowded.
Not according to the 1996 numbers I've seen. (You may have more recent data. The ridership shifts resulting from the bridge closure in 1999 may render my numbers worthless, in which case I stand corrected.) The Montague tunnel carries 48,897 inbound passengers per day on 259 trains; the Williamsburg Bridge carries 54,155 inbound passengers on 217 (shorter, on average) trains.
My calculations are for morning am rush hour. The demand data are shown in Table 3. I used the 2002 MTA schedules to figure out the service load level during the 7-10 am rush hour period. My calculations assumed that 60 foot cars were used on all lines with the 8 car trains on the M, J, Z and 10 car trains on the N and R. The schedules are not exact so I don't really know how many trains are scheduled during that time period. I assumed the following maximum hour frequencies. For the WB: 12 J/Z and 8 M's for 20 8-car trains. For Montague St: 15 N/R 10-car trains and 8 M 8-car trains. My assumption is that the temporal variation for demand over the 3 hour period is basically the same - i.e. 45% of the passengers for the 3 hour am rush hour come in during the peak hour.
Based on these assumptions the average leave load level for the peak am hour at Marcy Ave is 50% and that at Court St is 53%.
Yes, it would appear that riders have moved off the Williamsburg Bridge between 1996 and 2002, while service hasn't been reduced at the same rate.
OTOH, I'm not sure if I should trust this report -- it claims (elsewhere) that the L runs 72-car trains.
it claims (elsewhere) that the L runs 72-car trains.
lol, sounds like a freight train......
I can just imagine the C/R trying to get all 288 doors closed at once.
Let's see, a 72 cars=4,320 ft or roughly 3/4 of a mile. That would mean the front 24 or so cars headed to Manhattan would be signed up Eighth Ave., the middle 24 Sixth Ave. and the rear 24 Union Square. The down side of course, is that for ever station between there and New Lots, each train would have to stop nine times at every station so all 8-car sections could platform, but it would certainly be an interesting addition to the L line's CTBC testing project....
Good thing the L doesn't go to South Ferry.
"Only the first 36 cars platform at South Ferry. All passengers wishing to leave the train at South Ferry must move to the first 36 cars."
LOL! Hopefully they wouldn't wait until the last minute to anounce that. Those passengers in the 72nd car have would have a long walk!
As for the L, if you add a few more cars to that, then maybe they could platform at First Ave, and you could walk through the train in the 14th Street tunnel and exit the train at Bedford Ave.
Actually, with a 72-car train -- which would be an 84-car train based on length and A Division specs -- cars No. 40 through 44 could platform at South Ferry, while cars No. 1-5 and 80-84 could platform at Rector Street. :-)
LOL! It's amazing how something so silly can be so funny!
I could walk from Broadway Junction to Myrtle Wykoff simply by moving through the cars. The last car would probably open it's doors at 3rd Ave when that monster comes rolling into 8th Ave.
OTOH, I'm not sure if I should trust this report -- it claims (elsewhere) that the L runs 72-car trains.
I would re-read that passage in its context. The L train had been assigned 72 married pairs for its fleet. The TA was planning to junk these cars with the R143 order. The authors argued against this and for retaining these cars and to increase the Division B fleet in general.
"The TA was planning to junk these cars with the R143 order"
They were??? Are you sure???? Which Cars? no fleet adds up to that amount
And replace them with the equivilent of 50 married pairs(the original R143 order)
I think that it would not work, for a system that is in need of more trains, to scrap a bunch of cars and not replace them... especially if they still had 5-10 years left in them
"The TA was planning to junk these cars with the R143 order."
Really?????????? The R143 order couldn't repalce R40's and R42's, its a 212 car order & I'm not sure about the option order. You're probably talking about the future R160 order. If that happened, we would be in a deep car shortage when the rebuilt R30's and unrebuilt R27's/unrebuilt R30's were scrapped between 1990 and 1993 [which they shouldn't have been but supposedly it was due to extra weight], the R110B was a flop and since then this caused a severe train car shortage in the B division until now, where it is a little better now that R143's moved older cars to CI to increase service on lines that run from CI.
No, that honor belongs to the trains crossing the Williamsburg Bridge.
I know you're a whizz with statistics, but that's a load of crap. I can get a seat on the M at Court St. at 8 AM. The J/M/Z? LOL.
I was going to say that also. Anyone that says that the Williamsburg Bridge trains are empty at rush hours hasn't ridden that line. I used to take the M every day, and the trains were already seatless by Forest Ave. If you were lucky you may get a seat at Wyckoff if some people got off for the L. But that was only a split second until the new passengers got on there. The J also never looked empty to me.
I can't speak for the current numbers, but bear in mind that Williamsburg Bridge ridership dropped in 1999 -- when the bridge was closed, passengers had to find alternate routes, and some of them liked those alternate routes so much they never went back.
Which in turn, made room for new riders. This indicates that the subway attracted new riders since 1999, and they are using the Jamaica Avenue line.
I think we're all aware that overall subway ridership has been up since 1999.
But I'm afraid it hasn't been up on the Williamsburg Bridge. I posted the numbers for 1996 and Steve posted a link to a document containing the numbers for 2000 or 2001. The numbers have dropped substantially.
Maybe with all the improvements they are making on the Nassau Streeet subway, that will change. Currently it is not the most pleasant line to ride for commuters. It's strange because the Nassau line connects to almost every line (or at least trunk line) in the system on it's short run through Manhattan. It should be a very convenient line.
It's strange because the Nassau line connects to almost every line (or at least trunk line) in the system on it's short run through Manhattan. It should be a very convenient line.
It is a very convenient line... but it really doesn't do much east of the Williamsburg Bridge...
But then, the neighborhoods out there are due for a rebound soon, and then that line will not have enough capacity.
Elias
Somewhat true, but the M line east (north) of Wyckoff and the J line east of Broadway Junction does run through viable neighborhoods, it's just the parts in the middle where the "due for a rebound neighborhoods" are located.
"It is a very convenient line... but it really doesn't do much east of the Williamsburg Bridge..."
Other than serve New Yorkers who need mass transit because many don't own cars and provide a vital service to the neighborhoods along its route.
Why don't we cancel the Q train? After all, it doesn't do very much east of the Manhattan Bridge.
Actually the Nassau line is of alot of use east of the WIlliamsburg bridge. It is of less use south of Broad Street. Actually, aside form the L train it is the only subway line that cuts through that area of Brooklyn and Queens. Without the the J/M line that whole area would have no rail transportation.
"The numbers have dropped substantially. "
Fine, but these do not reflect rush-hour vs. off-peak figures. While overall numbers on that line are down, there are obviously enough riders during peak hours so that Subtalk posters observe no empty seats.
My statement is in error -- or, rather, is not supported by the numbers posted, because the numbers don't address the issue at all.
The number I had posted was the number of Manhattan-bound passengers over the Williamsburg Bridge on a 1996 weekday: 54,155.
I thought the number in the report Steve had linked to, 25,523, was the equivalent number for 2000 or 2001. I couldn't have been more wrong. That's the number of Manhattan-bound passengers over the Williamsburg Bridge between 7 and 10am in 1998. (So the numbers apparently dropped between 1996 and 1998, but not due to the Williamsburg Bridge closure, which occurred in 1999.)
Not a problem.
When one of us gets a hold of numbers which allow appropriate comparison, we'll see what the situation really is.
The Jamaica Av line needs a middle express track, and unfortunately won't get one anytime soon. :0(
I think that is the real answer to increasing ridership on the Broadway Brooklyn line. Cleaning-up the Nassau line is a start to better ridership, but ultimately it would be a third track between Eastern Parkway , oh excuse me, Broadway Junction and 121st Street that would really increase ridership.
Oops, I left out an important number: 33,089 is the number of passengers who crossed the Williamsburg Bridge into Manhattan between 7 and 10am in 1996 (on 44 trains of 352 cars -- an average of 94 passengers per 60-foot car).
Hmmm, that's intersting that the ridership was lower in 1998 than 1996. Before, the decrease made a little mores sense, as the closure of the bridge and changed habits could have been to blame. But I wonder what happened between 1996 and 1998 that would have made ridership levels drop that much. Does anyone know the current ridership levels in the morning rush on th Willy B? I don't think I've seen them posted here, unless I missed a post.
Aside from the physical problem, there's no real need to extend a local route from Manhattan through to Brooklyn. There's no lack of capacity in the current IND tunnel to provide services on the FUlton Street Line.
There are several East River tunnels (such as a replacement or addition to the Manhattan Bridge) that are quite important but not in the pipeline.
How much (if any) of the Worth Street tunnel was ever built??
I don't think any of the Worth St tunnel was ever built, But the S4th st station shell in Bklyn was built (destination of Worth St line.
try going to the EAST BWAY station on the F Line. Up stairs,you'll find all the clues you need and a hiden trackway behind a door[something like the Utica ave on the A].
I have seen a TA van parked near Grand Central labeled "new technology signals". Can anyone tell me what "new technology" signals are?
Whatever "old technology" maintainers aren't allowed to touch!
I.e. CBTC and related equipment.
Sorry about this, but I don't know what CBTC is. Could someone enlignten me?
C ommunications
B ased
T rain
C ontrol
AKA
"moving block"
"rolling block"
trains have computers on them which talk to wayside systems that determine the safe speed and spacing of trains, with a minimum of signals.
Knowing our friends in the NYCTA, it will probably stand for
C ollision
B ased
T rain
C arnage
Wowsers. I can TELL you're glad to be outta there. :)
I am impressed working for a copycat setup, there are far and fewer numbers of incidents in proportion. No Williamsburg bridge crashes, 40 MPH choo choos. I'd like to tell you how glad I am to be outta there too Sunday but I have company coming over, I had planned to pay a surprise visit to Branford on my Shadow, and the weather isn't co-operating either. In two weeks, I'll be at top pay. I'll miss my friends and family at the TA, but I don't miss the TA. Or should I say MTA-Subway, MTA-Railroad and MTA-Broadband Bus
Hahahaha ... yeah, it bit the bag when I was there. But then I was a short-timer. But work anywhere ELSE in Noo Yawk Pork & Sausage plant and it's the same yada-yada. Man, GLAD to hear things are happier. It was pretty much the same for me as well. I got MUCH better. :)
Including Event Recorders and "code" (PLC - not Type F!) systems.
"A subway evangelist preaching to a car full of rush-hour commuters Thursday morning punched and stabbed a passenger who told him to stop yelling at him, police said."
full Newsday article
Just another attempt by a goose to practice their right to freedom *from* religon....hope the guy's OK....
Just another attempt by a goose to practice their right to freedom *from* religon
So you think that the preacher was in the RIGHT for preaching to the damned non-believer?
American Pig
Proudly free from religion
I know I would've decked the guy if he didn't stop sounding annoying.
Honestly,in a car full of people during the rush hour,the last thing anyone wants to hear is someone saying 'preaching' garbage.
The issues of the story not withstanding, perhaps it's time for another public education campaign about when to and when not to pull the emergency cord.
Oh my, someone's been stabbed! Let me be a hero and stop this train dead in the middle of the tunnel so they can bleed to death.
CG
I know completely what you mean and coudln't agree more!! Then again I will, forever, quote what my school car instructor told me and my conductor class when we were in training....(hell I quote in caps lock)" THE CUSTOMERS ARE STUPID!!!"
That is very true - and what is worse, when you get some knucklehead who has NO CLUE about your job or responsibilities who goes and tells you how to do your job. I get plenty of that, and some of it is from envy and jealousy, the rest is sheer stupidity. For the record, if I do witness and emergency situation and can be of assistance, should I just stand by or identify myself to the crew ( I am a physician )?
I know you have enough headaches from "stupervision" ( I have relatives who worked for the MTA in various titles in the system, and the headaches that management gives the little guys is legendary from what they tell me ). The less headache you get, the better the day goes - for everybody, but then there are those who just thrive on being a royal pain.
That's rather easy: You render assistance to the injured person. You already *know* what to do there, and at this point, physician or not, you are acting as a "good samaritan". Once EMS personel arrive, you may identify yourself to them, and tell them of your treatments and findings.
On the Other Hand: given the unknowns, you really wouldn't want to touch another person's blood or do CPR without proper protective equipment such as gloves and a face shield. You should have one of those disposable face shields on your key ring. To staunch bleeding, I would liberate someone's plastic shopping bag and get them to hold pressure on a wound until EMS arrives.
And as for the geese! Rather than pulling the cord, I'd have surrounded the perp, and had a bunch of people SIT on him until the PD arrived.
Elias
Garat and noose him to a standy pole. If he refuses a citizen arrest, you can do what ever is nesseacery.
The new subway cars (142 and 143) have emergency intercoms. How many of the other car types have it?
The new subway cars (142 and 143) have emergency intercoms. How many of the other car types have it?
None.
The new subway cars passanger activated emergancy cords don't work once the train has left the station (after 600 ft).
Meaning passengers cannot set the emergency brake in the middle of a train tunnel between stations.
And if your hanging with your head 1 inch from the trackbed??
Where did you hear that from? What if someone crossing through cars and falls between?
"Where did you hear that from? What if someone crossing through cars and falls between? "
I too have heard that this is true. Esp for things like fire or medical emergency it is better to get to the next station than to stop in the tunnel.
Ever for the person falling between the cars, it is probably better to keep moving to the station, and extract them were help can be gotten to them.
And if they have fallen all the 12-9 way to the roadbed you would never stop the train fast enough to make any difference to them anyway.
Elias
>>> Ever for the person falling between the cars, it is probably better to keep moving to the station, and extract them were help can be gotten to them. <<<
Someone hanging on to a chain with his heels bouncing on the roadbed probably would not agree with you, and would prefer an immediate BIE.
Tom
I'd agree with you, but alas, we've got "study groups" and "casualty economics" which many years ago put a VALUE on human life for the car manufacturers for statistical analysis of whether an "improvement int he technology" was cost-justified vs. insurance recovery and settlements. A "customer through a wringer" was probably determined to be less costly than five "customers" having heart attacks and "trauma" for having witnessed the event.
Burrocrats sucking up would say, "this design would reduce taxpayer costs by 80% in court claims." And lo, verily, it became policy. Moo. That's the way the sausage has been sliced by Paturkey and the Business council (Dan Walsh/Verizon) for a while. The ripcord disable though was most likely measured this way and a 12-9 is usually fatal, so the odds play in favor of the lawyers. If you catch the three card Monty of the game ... everyone's a "player" these days ...
Someone in that situation has likely already either electrocuted himself, or fallen off the train into the tunnel...
I really think jumping onto the subway over the anticlimbers and trying to get on through the rear storm door are highly overrated activities. Much better to miss your train and bitch and moan about it on Subtalk.
[I really think jumping onto the subway over the anticlimbers and trying to get on through the rear storm door are highly overrated activities. Much better to miss your train and bitch and moan about it on Subtalk.]
Interesting, but I was actually on a Canarsie train with Mark W. as the C/R when a real jumper between cars occurred! The moron ran along side the train and actually MADE IT! However, from the C/R perspective you couldn't tell if the nitwit made it aboard or not, so Mark did the right thing by setting the train BIE and went back to investigate.
That was certainly the right thing. Good for Mark.
Well, I can only speak for the 143 being in B div, but it is true.
Its to prevent people from stopping the train in the tunnel. It really makes sense, because help can't get to them there.
Also, I'm sure it was also influenced by kids who like to pull the cord. :)
Besides, I think once the passengers get used to it, they'll use the Emer. Intercom before they start pulling the cord anyway.
The PURPOSE of the cord is to stop the train if someone's getting dragged ... it STILL handles that. But if an event should occur on the train once it's going, might as well get to the next stop whatever happens. If someone WERE to fall between cars, it's still take nearly a trainlength for the BIE to stop the train so it really does make sense.
cutting seconds off will increase your chance of survival. why don't thoses **ckwits just get Acella gasket. The cars are already linkbared and permenently married in 5 car sets. So it is pointless not to.
True, and *if* someone fell betwen cars, the set would go BIE anyhow.
Peace,
ANDEE
How can they get used to it, without using it?
Who does it connect you with anyway?
>>> The new subway cars passanger activated emergancy cords don't work once the train has left the station <<<
Are they completely inactive, or do they give indication to the C/R and/or T/O where the cord was pulled so one of them knows where the problem is and can call over the intercom to find out why the cord was pulled?
Tom
I believe that the cords only take effect once the train stops and opens its doors, then it has to be reset.
They are handels, right? (Do I have to open one myself?)
Are they mechanical or electronic?
r-160&^
Just get rid of it. Replace it with a "lock storm doors and don't open doors at station and call police" button. YOu will get hurt more but there is noway in *ell that guy will get away.
Now, maybe the police will start doing something abut these maniacs.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds as if he broke the fifth commandment.
Honor thy father and thy mother?
That's number 4 I think.
Number 4 is "Respect the Sabbath and keep it holy"
Ooops, sorry, you are right. The 5th is Honor thy Father and Mother. It's been a while since my Catholic grammer school days. I still remember all of them - just not the order I guess.
And people were worried about the DC Metro?
That is just sad. More of the reason to toss these 'preachers' off subway. God man, these people need to take their crap to a church or something. They are soliciting.
A lot of churches wouldn't want them (unless they were willing to learn when to keep their mouths shut, which they are not).
Agreed, though it was just a general question, Ronnie.
Watch it - only my kid sister (she's 36) gets to call me that!
:0)
Heh, that only increases the allure to call you that, Ron....
Oh, no...
>>> Oh, no... <<<
Don't sweat it Ron, no one else will learn your secret from us. :-)
Tom
LOL at awl yall.
If you got such a big mouth be a lawyer or PR guy.
Well, I am taking a law course...;-)
But who are you to tell me what to be? I'm just telling it as it is, man.
Ridiculous. It shows you how "religious" these fanatics are. No religion would condone such behavior. And who would want to listen to such a fool that doesn't shut up on the train - especially someone who is capable of such an outburst.
Classic. Anyone 'preaching', yelling, or being such an ass on a subway at that hour deserves it.
I love NYC...
>>> Anyone 'preaching', yelling, or being such an ass on a subway at that hour deserves it. <<<
Deserves what? The right to stab anyone who complains. That's carrying freedom of religion a bit too far. :-)
Tom
You should read Linda Chavez' columns (syndicated columnist) sometime...:0)
It freedom of religion aslong as long as person A doesn't impede on person B's right to person B's religion that person B chooses to follow.
OR something along thoses lines.
UMMM...It was THE PREACHER who did the stabbing.
Peace,
ANDEE
Some "preacher" huh.. I really can't take it, its bad enough when they go door to door annoying people who aren't interested in their junk but in the subway come on people are already frustrated, dont think NY'ers are going to stay quiet. I hope the passenger who got stabbed fully recovers. As for the "preacher", I hope this asshole gets jailed!!
>>>>...I hope this asshole gets jailed!! <<<<
As do I, but they must catch him first. He ran off into the tunnel.
Peace,
ANDEE
Naw, I hope he trys to preach at 2AM with a gang of 5-20 people, that will beat the LIVING bleep out of him and maybe stab him or a good couple of minutes of kicking in the gut while on the ground.
I don't our nation is getting any better after all things that have been going on. How? Domestic terrorism! First the capture 6 previous + 5 current citizens traitors, then the Sniper Case in DC, and now an unknown reasoned stabbing ancient. I think that this country is getting worst day by day is proceeding. I still wondering, What can US do to stop all this?
>>> I think that this country is getting worst day by day is proceeding. I still wondering, What can US do to stop all this? <<<
Give us a break. The sky is not falling. There have been senseless serial killings before, and a stabbing in the subway is not unheard of either. The arrest of 11 accused terrorists (after more than 1,000 arrests without charges) will impress me more if the charges are proven in court.
Tom
Well, it such tragic that more lives has been taken away in senseless ways
You can go to jail for going to jail. Distrubing the peace.
You can go to jail for going to jail. Distrubing the peace. At a party my friend went to many years ago, in very rural suburbia. The cops came arested 20 people of the total 100. Happened in Danbury or New Cannen, CT can't remember. My friend escaped through a 2nd floor window onto a carport and then down a firewood pile and a table. He doesn't know what exactly they were areseted on since he ran. He said like 10 police cars showed up. The kid that orginized the party had to go on probation and community service or something that didn't involve a jail sentence. His parents were on a business trip somewhere international. His parents got a lawyer so the kid and his family didn't spend any jail time but got like $1,000,000 fine. No clue what happened to the other kids. They were high schoolers. but this was in the early 90's.
Yup, I'm sure this story isn't exaggerated one bit.
Even w/o terrorism from foreign lands -- unfortunately -- America has no shortage of A-holes and lunatics. Sad to say, but with the economy tanking we will likely see more acts of random violence as some people fall into desparate situations.
Also, due to the poor economy it is likely that more of the mentally ill will be at large as social services are cut back, leaving many of those who require institutionalization out on the streets.
Captitalism doesn't work. Also if this economy doesn't shape up the US Dollar's value will fall even faster. And since most of the world economy in interwinded with the US if we go down everyone goes down.
Captitalism doesn't work.
Maybe Captitalism doesn't work, but I'm not familiar with that economic system. CAPITALISM on the other hand is the only system that works. If not, it would have been gone 200 years ago, but instead everything that was supposed to be so much better than capitalism has disappeared instead.
In fact, I'm sure captitalism won't work because only capitalism does.
Also if this economy doesn't shape up the US Dollar's value will fall even faster.
I'm not concerned. 1 million times of 0 is still 0. There has been no significant drop in the dollar's value on the world market.
And since most of the world economy in interwinded with the US if we go down everyone goes down.
So nobody's going down. WHOOPEE!
What we have now is a simple recession, it's not a depression and not something that will last forever. It's just like that thing 10 years ago while Bush was president and we were nearing war with Iraq.
Toliterian state, or racial and class segregation. IF you take a IQ test you can switch classes since that was the original point of the system. To prevent the stupid from coming in charge.
>>>To prevent the stupid from coming in charge<<<
UUUUMMM....the stupid are already in charge. Have you looked at the inhabitant of the Whitehouse lately.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ummh, well you can thank the founding fauthers for creating this problem. They were the first ones to eliminate classes in all ways except finacially.
*whispering* of course many of them kept slaves, and women weren't allowed to vote until the 20th century, but we're not supposed to talk about that...
Valid Point
Yes, I thank them for that whenever I have the chance.
Financial classes are the only classes that should exist.
IQ tests, or any tests for that matter are severely flawed and politically biased.
IF you take a IQ test you can switch classes since that was the original point of the system. To prevent the stupid from coming in charge.
This is not so. If you want to know, it merely tests your ability to succeed in the prevailing middle class meilu in this country. To this extent, it is not biased against anybody. Clearly it does NOT test intellegence per se, nor is it a reliable guide to demonstrate an individual's capacity for higher education or employment.
It is not true that all people were created equally... but all ought to be equal before the law and before their maker, and because this is so, all ought to be treated with dignity and respect.
Elias
Just turn on the BatSignal, that should solve all of our problems.
Use the solar-powered one.
:0)
I'd bet "The Preacher" was a errant lunatic and NOT the usual preachers (well, also a bit unhinged) that most of us encounter on our daily commutes.
Damn, I would hope that guy got buzzed by the third rail. IF that was a R-44,46,68 there would be a blood bath since the storm doors are locked. I just hope this isn't the start of a invasion of violent religious radiacals. My mother always said that racial and RELIGIOUS tension will distroy this country.
My wife and I drove to Louisville, KY, (from South Jersey) to visit my brother and his family last Thursday and drove back on Monday. We attended the Louisville Chapter NRHS meeting Friday evening (I'm a member of the West Jersey Chapter). The program was interrupted by building (Union Station) security herding us into the basement because of a tornado warning (one touched down east of the city). I regretted not having a camera with me. The basement had previously been cavernous, but brick partitions had been added between the granite block pillars, creating a labyrinthine effect. Some of the rooms contained old artifacts, making for a fascinating 25 minutes until the all-clear, for railroad historians.
Photographs of the Corydon Scenic Railroad (Indiana), Kentucky Railway Museum, Kentucky Dinner Train, and CSX (Louisville & Nashville) Osbourne Yard are on my Railfan Potpourri 7 Webshots page.
The Kentucky Railway Museum trip was of historical interest. Motive power was L&N #152, the oldest operable Pacific in the USA (Rogers [Paterson, NJ], 1905). The coach that I rode in from New Haven to Boston (Kentucky) [my brother and our wives rode in a closed coach; I rode in an open-window coach (steam engine, duh)] had a tell-tale partition 1/4 of the way inside; the conductor entertained questions after giving his historical speech, and I asked whether the coach was a Jim Crow car, and he answered affirmatively.
The track between New Haven and Boston was the first railroad in Kentucky, chartered in 1850 and operating between NH and Louisville by 1856, eventually becoming the L&N main between Louisville and Chattanooga.
Bob,
I was just checking out your pictures, what is yard slug and a road slug?
Thanks
what is yard slug and a road slug?
A slug is a former locomotive that has had its prime mover (diesel engine) removed but still has its traction motors. It is connected electrically to an intact locomotive (the pair is sometimes called "cow and calf") and is used to imcrease tractive effort. Slugs often have concrete added for ballast, to offset the weight loss from removal of the engine.
I don't know the mechanical differences between yard and road slugs, and choose not to speculate.
So now that the weekend is over, anyone have pictures of the weekend? I was shooting video on Saturday and would be willing to make a copy or two if there were any interest. Email me off the list if you are interested. I am in no way a pro photographer, but they came out OK in my opinion. All it would take is sending me a blank tape and cost of shipping it back to you from Jacksonville FL. A big thanks to all the crew, I remember how tiring it can be.
Steve Loitsch
Steve -
Glad you had a good time. Wish I'd had time to take a few pics but my camera bag stayed in the car... too busy running Sprague - Farm River Road shuttles on 629 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mous,
The few, the proud, the operating crew that made New York Days a sucess for the many visitors. Now on Sunday, we'll have to clean
the windows from you operators that ran shuttle service that weekend.
;| ) Sparky
You know I've never ridden on 629? On most of my visits to Shoreline, they've run Connecticut Company cars including the one built specifically for the Branford line. The last time I was there, they were running 4573.
Steve,
The baker will be sure to get ya on his faved car on Sunday.
;| ) Sparky
That I will :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That would be #865. She needs some TLC, so Johanny come lately 775 is doing her tour. 775 worked West Haven until they closed that line down then spent her last days on the Short Beach line ... she did such a great job, we kept her < G >. Tommorow she'll probably be out, hope she doesn't get her feet wet.
On one visit, the fellow running 865 pointed out that it has never left the Branford line. In a way, he's right.
I did get a chance to run one of the open bench cars back in 1980. Didn't dump the brakes, either.:)
Steve,
I'm glad you put a time line on 865 in Service in the early
nineteen eighties. Hasn't been on line since I qualified in '85.
She is in Grand Avenue Carhouse under going work now.
You don't dump the brakes on a straight air car, but you can
stonewall it.
;| ) Sparky
Mr. T.
What you mean "Johnny Come Lately" 775. That car has been on
line since I was trained in 1985. Maybe not as 775 but 193,
it's original 1904 number, when operated two man. 193 was only
out for one winter 1996~1997 for restructuring to its 775
configuration, mainly by Rick Slinsky, as project leader.
;| ) Sparky
I only ment she wasn't bought for our line.
Many think she was always on the line & tell the visitors that, but I know that was 865. I was for a while in error in that I didn't know she actually did service on the line before it closed down.
See that a subway kind of guy is trying to keep his trolley stories streight < G >
It's all in the intepretation of the particular docent. I state
that it would operate on a line like Branford, for it is a
suburban car vs city car, which if unblocked is quite expeditious.
But due to age, we restrain it from exerting itself in parallel.
Yes, I agree, it's a Museum figment that it was purchased for the
Branford Line. Maybe when 865 returns to service to relief 775,
we'll have the correct explication.
;| ) Sparky
Yes, I agree, it's a Museum figment that it was purchased for the
Branford Line. Maybe when 865 returns to service to relief 775,
we'll have the correct explication.
Sparky, this discussion today is the first that I was told otherwise - even the printed info I was given during training states that 775 is original to the line. So I guess I've got to correct my spiel :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mous,
I went into the museum web page and checked the roster for
both cars.
ConnCo 865 was built as Consolidated Railways 512 in 1906,
who operated the line after Branford Electric Railway prior to
absorption by ConnCo. in the nineteen teens.
ConnCo 775 was built as Connecticut Company 193 in 1905.
It was restored to its 775 configuration during the winter
of 1996~1997. May have misdated the repainting in a previous
tread.
;| Sparky
"Glad you had a good time. Wish I'd had time to take a few pics but my camera bag stayed in the car... too busy running Sprague - Farm River Road shuttles on 629"
Was that on Sat the 28th? I must have ridden with you then!
: ) Elias
Indeed it was... there were a couple of us running 629... I took her for two full trips early in the day and then ran shuttle the remainder of the day with her. Another operator ran at least one full round trip with her and I think one shuttle run as well while I was giving a tour. I'm the ugly guy with the beard... click here for a mug shot, links to Branford scenes, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And here are my pics of this trip! We arrived there in the afternoon.
: ) Elias
OK... Pretty sure I saw you somewhere along the line... you probably didn't go back to Sprague until after I put most of the cars in the barn around 1700 (leaving 629 on the main at Farm River) and departed. I never did get on board any of the R/T cars - no time - but I'll make up for that tomorrow.
Did you ever get the resent snail mail?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Did you ever get the resent snail mail? "
Yes I did, Thanks!
Elias
A very impressive family album you have. What a pedigree!
Congratulations on Margaret's (recent?) graduation from college. She is a very lovely woman.
Thanks Ron... Margaret graduated in May 2000 at age 17 (almost 18)... slightly younger than your typical college graduate :-) She is now a third year law student at Georgetown, will get her J.D. next May... trying very hard to find a job and not having a lot of luck. Her specialty is business law, emphasis on international.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Thanks Ron... Margaret graduated in May 2000 at age 17 (almost 18)... slightly younger than your typical college graduate :-) She is now a third year law student at Georgetown, will get her J.D. next May... trying very hard to find a job and not having a lot of luck. Her specialty is business law, emphasis on international."
One option (if she's open to it) might be joining the federal government and working with the office of US commercial attache in a foreign country. Her legal training would be potentially valuable, and she would network with lots of business leaders in those countries (both US and foreign) and you never know when a recruiter would reach out to her...
It's worth a phone call to the State Dept. to find out...
I actually bought a disposable at the gift shop. It had 27 exposures and I think I took 3. The problem is I have so many pics from Member's Days, Santa on The Trolley, past Autumn in NY days I was trying to avoid duplicates. So when and it I ever take the other 24 I'll put 'em right in the scanner. Maybe this Sunday on SubTalk Day if I remember to bring it.
If you became a member your would have access to the "Tripper" Online and pictures of the event will be posted in the next month issue. Another great bonus of being a member at BERA. Membership starts at just $15 www.bera.org
Pardone Wa,
But Traction Fan is a member of BERA longer then I, and
I'm in my eighteenth year. He may not be active
because of duty with Uncle Sam at this time,
but he's not a newbie.
;| ) Sparky
Thanks for the assist Sparky
Steve
Steve,
You have to educate the newbies.
;| ) Sparky
I'm just sorry I missed Steve, as I knew he was going to be there & also knew he was coming a long way.
I also took a number of shots & hope to finish the roll this Sunday.
Fellow member Ken Lawrence made up a nice poster style photo, I'll send it to you via e-mail.
Mr. T,
If you still have the e~mail on file, please send it to Steve.
I only have printouts of Ken's poster.
;| ) Sparky
Been there, done that.
Dziekuje Bardzo, ;| ) Sparky
I recognize the first word: thank you, right? I don't speak Polish, but that word has been Lithuanianized to dekui. The actual Lithuanian word for thank you sounds like someone sneezing, with the accent on the ah instead of the choo.
Your right Steve. I couldn't resist giving Mr. T a Greenpernt
zinger po Polsku.
;| ) Sparky
I have some pictures from Last Year's
Bob,
Thanks for the memories.
;| ) Sparky
Anyone know of any movies shot on MARTA?
I found this on the ARC website, gives depiction of connecting concourse between the new Farley Penn station and the Current Penn station via a concourse under 8th ave.
http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/site/html/status/altp_plan.htm
Thank you for posting that!
Now, Train Dude, Charles G and annyone else who thought Farley is a bad idea can look at this and still post that it's a bad idea - but at least we can now all see exactly what they're referring to.
I saw it. I looked and can give the quick report that I still don't like it. But, I'm travelling tomorrow so I'm going to bed.
I'll try and detail my objections on Saturday -- do remind me if I forget.
CG
"I saw it. I looked and can give the quick report that I still don't like it. But, I'm travelling tomorrow so I'm going to bed."
OK - great. I look forward to seeing your critique (and I'll be able to understand your reasoning a lot better this way).
"I'll try and detail my objections on Saturday -- do remind me if I forget."
OK.
OK. I'm back.
I tried to look at the plans and compare to my original criticisms. It's not always easy, because these aren't really plans, just one diagram -- and we don't even know that this is what will ultimately be constructed. It's just from the Access to the Region's Core project which had (from my recollection) a mix of feasible and infeasible recommendations.
Also, it doesn't indicate how many platforms will be lengthened to reach far enough under Foley to be valuable to the project. From the diagram it appears that the station in Foley will be almost mid-block between 8th and 9th Avenues.
Finally, my comments are based on the assumption that NJT will not abandon their new concourse for Farley. Further assuming that the current Amtrak boarding area within Penn Station will continue to be maintained and that announcements for Amtrak trains will be made there. (this may or may not be true. Certainly for the reserved trains, Amtrak likes to limit access to one stairway only and check tickets before passengers descend -- if they are going to force all Acela Express passengers over to Farley, they make things more inconvenient for anyone arriving by LIRR/NJT/IRT.)
Improvements for LIRR riders - None that I can see. None of their platforms extend far enough west to be significantly impacted by all this.
Improvements for NJT riders - Nothing of significance. The additional access to platforms would have been a big improvement 12 months ago, when their was very limited access to tracks 1-12, but is much less of an issue now with all the additional stairways. Also, stairways to Foley would seem to be of limited use, since NJT trains are now pulling all the way east -- meaning that the Foley access would likely be behind the entire train.
Potential disruptions for NJT riders -- Seemingly only to the extent that some platforms may be out of service at times during the construction.
Amtrak - They get an attractive station -- likely with an appropriately sized waiting area and baggage check area. On the flip side, connecting passengers are now much further away from not only the LIRR/NJT/IRT, but also from access to the 8th Avenue IND! Passengers arriving in Foley will now need to walk the equivalent of a 1/2 block east to 8th/32nd and then one block north the the 33rd street entrance to the IND. The current situation for Amtrak puts them 1/2 block south of the same IND entrance.
CG
OK. Fair enough. Your critique takes into accounts some caveats, which are reasonable.
I'd say as a whole, I agree with some of your concerns (are you surprised? I just wanted us to be on the same page).
So I think maybe I'll write a letter this weekend to Amtrak and ask the railroad what they think about these concerns.
Then I'll post what I learn here. The answers may or may not be very satisfactory. Perhaps they'll include additional details which you and I would both like to hear about.
Until about a three weeks ago I was really excited about the Farley Project. (I still like the idea of a nicer station for passengers coming to Ney York). But three weeks ago was the first I heard about the new NJ Transit concourse. I was totally unaware that they were doing that. Originally I thought it would be great to let Amtrak move to the Farley Penn station, and I figured NJ Transit would restore and rehabilitate the former Amtrak concourse for their use as a NJ Transit councourse. This way each RR would have their own area. When I found out that NJ Transit spent all this money on a new concourse, I was stunned because then I figured that the current Amtrak concourse 9or the original Penn Station concourse area) becomes totally redundant. Why didn't NJ Transit just save it's money and take over the current Amtrak area when Amtrak moved to the "Farley Concourse" and spend all that money restoring that area? It seems like a total lack of coordination between the agencies at Penn Station.
Thanks for posting that.
What Farley looks like to me now is a possibly useful urban development project rather than a transit project:
- Slight improvements to connectivity between Amtrak and LIRR, if they do it right (allow you to enter and leave Amtrak at all points on the lower concourse, rather than forcing you to use the upper concourse and the 9th Ave entrance).
- Crowding relief that is no longer needed now that NJT has its 7th Ave exit, but which may be needed by 2020.
- A possible magnet for retail and business west of 8th Ave, helping make that area a prime part of midtown real estate. This is totally unrelated to transit but might be a good idea in the long run.
- A majestic entrance into NYC by rail, suitable to the grandeur of the city as a whole.
- A risk that the money used for this project will be subtracted directly from other more worthwhile TRANSIT projects.
"- A risk that the money used for this project will be subtracted directly from other more worthwhile TRANSIT projects"
Not an issue at all, happily. Money was appropriately for this project long before Sept 11, 2001 and has absolutely no bearing on the current MTA Capital Plan or the post-9/11 rebuilding effort.
"Money was appropriately for this project long before Sept 11, 2001"
Really? All $780 million is already appropriated? I don't disbelieve you; I just haven't read that anywhere.
I also still have a small concern that somewhere in the future an Amtrak NE Corridor improvement will be blocked by Republicans who say "You ungrateful wretches, we just gave you $780 million for a new station and now you want still more capital improvement money."
"I also still have a small concern that somewhere in the future an Amtrak NE Corridor improvement will be blocked by Republicans who say "You ungrateful wretches, we just gave you $780 million for a new station and now you want still more capital improvement money." "
Yes, I must concede that is ALWAYS a potential problem. Good point.
Hell, there are some Republicans who wouldn't give you money to dismantle and permanently close the subway even if you promised them that New York would never spend money again on mass transit, and the City would pass an ordnance making it a misdemeaner to get on a bus and put a token in the farebox (attempting to ride a train would be a felony).
>>> Hell, there are some Republicans who wouldn't give you money to dismantle and permanently close the subway even if you promised them that New York would never spend money again on mass transit <<<
Of course they would object. A much better source of funding would be a new tax on New Yorkers to suck up that money that used to go into turnstiles and fare boxes. :-)
Tom
http://www.powwmedia.com/pennsy/newstation.htm
Thank you very much for posting this.
Yesterday(10/10) I had set numbers 8177-8184 for one of my round trips. As it was making the Announcements at 6th Ave for 8th Ave the woman said "Next and Last stop is 8th Ave." It also said it the way when we were at 105th St "Next and Last stop if Canaric, Rackaway Parkway." I also like to you the special Annoucements during my trip. On the other set there is a wait before the massage I pick is played, on this set it was right after a hit play botton on the screen. Also the other set I am able to put two or three different annoucements togeather and have them play one after another once the text run thought. On this set when I did this the first on was stopped in the middle and the other one played.
One more then about this set is when we were at the last stop the outside sign read "Last Stop" as well as the insde ones.
I woundering if the rest of the fleet will be up graded like this one set, or if this set gets broken up and put with another set will this still happen?
Any thoughts
Robert
In A Div R142A 7651-60 is like that. It spells out Brooklyn Bridge and all the signs say "Last Stop" as you pull into the terminal. Also something else is diffrent the Male don't make the transfer announcements the female voice sez it all exept the Closing Door announcement.
Also, R142s #6951-6960 and 7031-7040 have the same type of announcements programmed in the sets.
Cleanairbus
One more thing about this set, car 8183 has scratchfity on one of the conner seats at the number one end. So I guess they kids started this sh-t already on these new cars. They sould be put in jail with the adilts with some big guy named Bud for a few week, see how they like get scratch on(If you get my drift).
Robert
So Lets say MNRR and LiRR combine Would Mnrr employess make the same amount as LiRR people?Or better question Woulld MNRR be able to pick over to LIRR and vice versa.But on the MTA subway front,If we combine with SIRR will we be able to pick over there,Because 95st would become a ghosttown.
Paper today said that the combination would have no effect on present contracts.
This latest plan is in Friday's Post, and would connect the AirTrain directly into the LIRR at Jamaica and then run it to to WTC area in Lower Manhattan through a new tunnel and an extension of the LIRR (or MTA Railroad or MTA Choo Choo or whatever they're going to call it) from Flatbush and Atlantic through the MetroTech area (which would avoid almost all of the downtown Brookyln subway tunnels). Cost -- $4 to $8 billion.
On the positive side, at least they are talking about a new tunnel to Manhattan, instead of using the Cranberry Tube, though those wacky folks at Broofield Properties do get a mention of their plan down at the bottom of the story. And with a new tunnel, direct downtown service for the LIRR would be feasable.
The down side, of course, is the AirTrain layout can't even handle the 75-foot cars on the B Division today, if you hooked it into the subway, let alone running any of the 85-foot rolling stock used by the LIRR . Any use of the LIRR tracks would require specially built and FRA-compliant 60-foot cars for the JFK loop, which would mean pretty much scrapping all the Bombardier cars that have been bought for the new system.
I assume that King Ruppert has some financial interest in downtown Manhattan real estate or construction companies.
Well, he's got the old N.Y. Post building on South Street. Maybe he's hoping the MTA will buy it and level it to put in their vent shaft for the new LIRR tunnel while it's being built. :-)
Pie-in-the-sky, I'm afraid. Probably get built around the same time the 2nd Ave. subway is completed .
Now, that seems a little silly to me. I can understand the desire for a direct ride to Penn Station via LIRR -- but for lower Manhattan, wouldn't the obvious connection be via subway? The only necessary new trackage would be a Howard Beach connecting ramp. And the subway already runs 60-foot cars.
They could probably knock about $1 billion off the cost of the thing if they opted for an East Side rail terminal in Lower Manhattan, instead of over to the WTC site. It wouldn't hook up the station well with the downtown subway lines (unless the Second Ave. subway was built down Water Street), but it would avoid having to dig under or over all the existing lines between William and Church Sts. in order to get to the WTC area.
Overall, I can think of several ways the MTA could better spend its money, but sometimes clout plays a bigger role than necessaity in projects (and at least it is more logical than the Brookfield-Cranberry plan).
The problem with running an airport line on an existing subway line is that it gets backed up behind regular service and will not be much faster. The JFK Express failed in part because the cost was not worth the amount of time it took to get to Howard Beach. The train would run with B and F trains on the 6th Avenue, C and E trains on the 8th Avenue local, A and C trains through Cranberry Street, and A during rush hours on the Fulton express track. You might as well just take the A train. It ran more frequently and didn't take all that much longer. At least if the AirTrain is on the LIRR, it should run a little faster than subway service.
As for FRA compliance, that doesn't concern me too much. If NYC ever got federal dollars for some major transit project integrating railroads with non-FRA compliant systems, I am sure that our members of Congress will attach an FRA waiver to some bill as long as there are no legitimate questions of safety.
Exactly. I never suggested that a special high-amenity high-fare train share tracks with the subway. I suggested that the airport line be integrated into the subway itself. Anyone taking the AirTrain to Howard Beach will be transferring to the subway anyway -- just carry that subway onto the AirTrain tracks and be done with it. The airline terminals would have subway stations, just like 468 other points around the city have subway stations.
Yes, a new LIRR tube would save a few minutes for those traveling between JFK and lower Manhattan. It would also be immensely more expensive, and it wouldn't save time for people going anywhere else in the subway system.
An interesting proposal (I take it this a fusion of two proposals - the earlier one about extending the LIRR to lower Manhattan, and AirTrain.
Scrapping Bombardier's rolling stock may not be much of an issue. If this proposal is actually ever done, it will be time to do a GOH on the cars anyway...
"MTA Choo Choo"
Please, some decorum! The full legal name is MTA Choo Choo Twain.
You know what the best thing to do here is? Tie it all to the Second Ave Subway. Build a four-track tunnel south from 63rd St. Two outer tracks for LIRR/AirTrain (either one), two inner tracks for the subway. There are no shared platforms, the Second Ave subway has all island platforms, the LIRR line would have stop at GCT, then non-stop all the way to a shared terminal in the financial district. Now you don't have to worry about sharing the tracks, you've made all the people happy because they get their fast way to JFK and the Second Ave line. Forget the Flatbush terminal.
LIRR Buys new cars that are FRA compliant and compatible with the AirTrain line, which will have to lose its liner induction propulsion system.
-Hank
So if I understand your proposal correctly, it would be:
1) The current two-track full-length second avenue subway proposal from downtown to 125th with connections at 63rd, plus
2) The LIRR East Side Access project, plus
3) A two track rail tunnel from GCT to downtown.
Very interesting. If you have capacity for AirTrain in the 63rd Street tubes, and you can obtain FRA compliance and compatability, then that certainly would work, once you get over the political hurdles of mingling a PANYNJ system funded by Airport taxes with an MTA system. There's actually no need to even have this deep bore tunnel to downtown run underneath second avenue or be part of the second avenue system.
Sadly, I think the deep bore tunnel from GCT to downtown will be easier to construct than the political hurdles.
Matt
You have to put this "proposal" into prespective,
First, no one in the MTA had anything to do with it, it came out of the LMDC "downtown planners" group.
Second, It's actually one of two being floated, the other from the Brookfield Properties group, would use the "C" train to get to Brooklyn, i.e. no new tunnel.
Both would share the LIRR Atlantic Ave to Jamaica ROW to reach the AirTrain.
Also in one very short parr. they mention extending PATH to Newark.
Lastly the map & AirTrain photo take up more space then the text :-(
In fact, the headline is almost as big as the text :-(
The PATH extension has been floating around for years. It was the logical next step from opening the NE corridor station there.
If these dual mode cars are still lightweight, how about running them over the Brooklyn Bridge in the space above the roadways?
"The PATH extension has been floating around for years. It was the logical next step from opening the NE corridor station there."
A feasibility study has been ordered. I don't know if it has been completed.
If these dual mode cars are still lightweight, how about running them over the Brooklyn Bridge in the space above the roadways?
The bars that you see above the Brooklyn Bridge roadway cannot support any loads. They are struts. Their purpose is to prevent the inner and outer trusses (which do support weight) from bending towards one another.
I guess you could add stronger supports.
Thanks for putting this in perspective. Sadly, this proposal bears no more weight than some of the pie-in-the-sky fantasies that get proposed here on this board.
A direct connection from AirTrain to Manhattan was orignially part of the plan, but finances wouldn't allow this. A one seat ride on a separate AirTrain system would be optimal, but I don't see this happening for some time, either via sharing of ROW (making AirTrain FRA compliant) or constructing a new East River tunnel. The Penn Tubes are at capacity, and I hear there is no extra capacity in the new 63rd Street tubes for LIRR to GCT (also that FRA compliance issue),
Matt
Well, the 63rd street connection to Grand Central will take some of the pressure off the tubes to Penn Station. So, extending a few trains from JFK to Penn would be a low cost possibility.
The AirTrain angle is not new at all. Predicted in this very forum two weeks ago:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=390770
One problem is AirTrain is just three 60 footers. How does the PA feel about converting it into a rush-hour-crush-mobile?
The bigger problem is Brookfield and their backers still refuses to address the key issue: they are NOT providing one-seat LIRR access to Manhattan. Riders still have to transfer at Jamaica to the WTC shuttle.
So $4 - 8 billion to merely move the LIRR transfer point from Brooklyn to Queens. A colossal waste of money, as it accomplishes nothing.
Can't wait to see what the transportation consultants are going to say about all this. Apparently, we've got to wait until after the election. Keep the powder dry. This one is only getting started.
WHAT: Bombardier Transportation, the global leader in the rail equipment manufacturing and servicing industry, will unveil the latest in high-speed rail (HSR) technology. Bombardier JetTrain* is the first 150-mile per hour non-electric locomotive designed for the North American market. JetTrain is powered by a jet engine, rather than the traditional diesel power.
The JetTrain locomotive will be available for media viewing at Union Station in Washington on Tuesday, October 15, at 11:00 a.m. in advance of a formal unveiling that evening.
Members of the media are also invited to join representatives of Bombardier Transportation and their guests at a reception to unveil the JetTrain locomotive beginning at 5:30 p.m. at Union Station's Columbus Club.
WHO: Mr. Pierre Lortie, President and Chief Operating Officier, Bombardier Transportation Mr. William Spurr, President, North America, Bombardier Transportation Ms. Lecia Stewart, Vice President of High Speed Rail, Bombardier Transportation
WHERE: Media Preview The Starlight Room, First Floor passenger waiting area, Union Station, Washington, DC (50 Massachusetts Avenue, Washington, DC) Unveiling Reception The Columbus Club Union Station, Washington, DC (50 Massachusetts Avenue, Washington, DC)
WHEN: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 Media Preview - 11:00 a.m. Reception - 5:30 p.m.
(Footnote - Colorado Railcar's DMU is also scheduled to be there too. It's in conjuction with a Railway Age meeting)
the new york central tested a jet powered rdc car in new york state. the also was the UA train that ran between ny and bos on the new haven in the 70's
The Union Pacific had a fleet of them. Plus the rebuilt Rohr ones are still waiting to make their NYC-ALBANY runs.
Where was the RDC test at in New York State? (It was in Ohio where the NY Central has their test lab. The only thing jet powered that was used in NY State by the NY Central was their third rail snow blower.)
i think it was in the rochester area (i could be wrong. they mounted two jets from a b-47 on the roof.
Sorry. No first hand report as I was busy at work and could not get away. Several newspapers picked up the AP report and carried it in their business section. The Brits also carried the unveiling.
The wording "Jetrain" is already trademarked. But look! They will have sporting goods with the Jetrain logo.
Word Mark BOMBARDIER JETRAIN
Goods and Services
IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Vehicles; apparatus for locomotion by land, motors and engines for land vehicles; coupling and transmission components for land vehicles.
IC 039. US 100 105. G & S: Transport services rendered via railway vehicles.
IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Clothing, footwear, headgear
BTW the trademark "JetTrain" belongs to another company.
Is this simply an updated turbo-train?
Looks like a locomotive that can be coupled to anything. It's not made for any one type of rolling stock (interchangeable). Something to the degree the Union Pacific did in the 50's.
http://www.newsday.com/business/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-high-speed-rail1015oct15,0,4195584.story?coll=sns-ap-business-headlines
Interesting article.
Jet engines arein wide use in non-aircraft applications:
1) Generating electricity for peak demand
2) Propulsion for naval vessels
3) Powering the Army's M1 Abrams tank
However, most of these applications are in areas where frequent intensive maintenance is required and accepted, and the military users don't worry too much about fuel consumption.
The 1950's Kraus-Maffei turbine locos serving on the Union Pacific suffered frequent fouling of turbine blades by the Bunker-C oil used as fuel.
I am not familiar with the Turbotrain's operating experience.
>>1950's Kraus-Maffei turbine locos serving on the Union Pacific<<
??? IIRC UP Turbines were GE built. Indeed the stories of blade damage were widespead.
KM built DIESEL Hydraulic units for SP and D&FGW (who gave up early selling them to SP) ALCO built domestic license copies for SP. Thy all had dismal records.
I saw the locomotive yesterday as I boarded my MARC train. Except for the color scheme, it looked like the HHP motor for an Acela Express. I didn't have a lot of time before my train left to stare at it and note details. It didn't look impressive.
Michael
Washington, DC
Yes, that's right...
This one in Spotsylvania County Virginia (where Fredericksburg, VA is). Cops have pretty much shut down I-95 between DC and points south and US 1. They are also monitoring vehicles at the American Legion Bridge (I-495 at the MD line on the Montgomery Co. part of the beltway) Fortunately, this victim is injured, hopefully not fatally...Turn on the TV and you'll see plenty of footage at the traffic snarl at the I-95/495/395 interchange, locally known as the Mixing Bowl.
More to come....
Mark
Latest news:
Van stopped on I-95. No more details available
I've seen several web reports saying todays shooting WAS fatal...although other web reports stating it as an injury....
The plinking continues...they really have to get this guy off the street.
The shooting was fatal.
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11984-2002Oct11.html
I heard that this latest victim did not survive. I arrived at work late today and as I driving S/B on Wisconsin Ave... the police had a few White GMC/Chevy cargo vans pulled over.
This waste of flesh really needs to be caught.
Wayne
I just drove by it coming back from school. Northbound lanes have roadblocks every few miles from Stafford to Fairfax with a lot of white vans pulled over. The road is filled with cops and news people. They are also keeping the HOV lanes shut for police.
Ugh. It's the Son of Sam, 2002 version. I wouldn't buy gas within a 500 mile radius of Washington DC. It's also a national embarassment, given the spin European news organizations are putting on it.
Note on the Railway Age meeting
(Presentation of the W. Graham Claytor, Jr., Award for Distinguished Service to Passenger Transportation to Peter Stangl, former Chairman, New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority and President, Bombardier Transit Corporation)
I always wonder why Bombardier loves NYSMTA.
Of course, we won't follow the MONEY in campaign contributions. :)
Line History
I have my own bullets now, so they should always come up, right click and click "show picture" if necessary)
Very impressive. You should be proud of yourself. Personally, I'd like to see an X train.
I like the way you made the roll boxes. I think I will do that on my web site sometime in the future.
Elias
That's something I'd really like to see!
No, Netscape 7 should be GUNNED DOWN in Subway, Bernie GOETZ style. And EVERY "customer" gets their own gun. Uses same. In unison. With harmony and FEELING. But yeah, the rollbox trick is nice.
You are absolutely right about Netscape 7. It stinks just like Netscape 6 and isn't with using. In the meantime I'm going to stick with Netscape Communicator 4.8.
#3 West End Jeff
Yep, same decision here. GRANTED, I have to write code for our NSClean thingy to deal with it, but man oh man. Smells like REDMOND. AOL and Microsoft, like those half-black and half-white guys battling it out (Frank Gorshin) on Star Trek. A pox on BOTH of their houses. :)
But yeah, Nutscrape 7 is just more spying than Netscape 6. And I just LOVE how it screws up the subject line on boards, hands your bank account number to the WRONG BANK ... whatta mess. Mozilla (the parent code for Netscape after V6) isn't faring much better. Needs salt. :)
As I said before, I'll stick with Netscape Communicator 4.8
Jeff,
Where did you get it?
Last time I checked Netscape.com when they had version 4, all I could get was 4.78, which is what I use.
IF you want Netscape Communicator 4.8 Go to http://wp.netscape.com/download/archive/client_archive47x.html
#3 West End Jeff
I reluctantly went from 4.78 to 6.2 because it no longer works for me on other sites such as Best Western and VIA Rail even though I had Java script enabled. I also had to change to Outlook Express for mail and news because I could not get 6.2's to work right. I sent away for the free 7.0 CD. NS doesn't even offer 6.2 anymore.
There is now Netscape Communicator 4.8 and it might work with the websites that wouldn't work properly with Netscape 4.7x. Go to http://wp.netscape.com/download/archive/client_archive47x.html to get Netscape Communicator 4.8. Netscape 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 are not that good. Netscape 7.0 isn't much better. Netscape Communicator 4.8 is poirbably the best that they have to offer.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't get upset at this, but just can Netscape and get IE! IMHO, Netscape has, and always will, suck! I know Netscape people are protective of their browser, but I've been using IE for years with no problem at all.
IE is OK, but the one thing I HATE is that unlike Netscape's bookmarks, IE's Favorites can't be made just a pull-down. You give up a third of the screen if you keep the Favorites visable so you can just click a link to go there.
I only use IE for the sites that refuse to be browser neutral.
I use IE exclusively and their favorite sites are pull downs.
Peace,
ANDEE
anyway I've used IE for ages and never have problems either... and I like the fullscreen mode.
You can use the links bar for frequently visited sites...
Also, you could set the favorites panel to autohide, or you could just use the menu.
I have IE at work and hate it. Furthermore, I can't be bothered with weekly patches. They put out a bulletin in mid-August that their supposed "secure" transactions were not. I do not want to go MS any more of a monopoly than they have.
I used to post them here on this board. They are simple tables with the cells sized and spanned to shape, and the background and text colors swapped.
Thanks for the compliments!
Well, I'm off for the Big Apple bright and early tomorrow morning. We'll have a great time at Shoreline on Sunday and during our railfanning excursions on Monday and Tuesday. Am looking forward to seeing those of you whom I've met before and meeting some of you for the first time. See you shortly!
Have a good time.
I think it's raining up there...
Very hard too.....Saturday will be much of the same rain. I don't know about Sunday.
Sunday will be fine (except for a slightly misty morning) at Branford - Kyle will be out to sea Saturady overnight. By the time the poles are raised, it'll be dry and partly cloudy ...
Just wanted to know, which track does A-Train shuttle take when coming from the Far Rockaway branch to the Liberty Avenue ramp? Do they use the Manhattan bound track or switch over to the Rockaway-Lefferts track?
The Rockaway-Lefferts track.
The diversion didn't seem to be running at all Wednesday. A trains were running through to Far Rockaway.
A few months ago, I went out to Rockaway Blvd. one Sunday this same diversion was in effect. Shuttle trains stopped at the NB platform, relayed on the middle track, and stopped again at the SB platform. I don't know what's happening this time.
Hell,Why the hell is there even a shuttle train to Far Rock!? if it's every 20mins anyway,why the hell are they gonna run a shuttle train at the same interval!? That doesnt make any sense.It's really dumb.
There was probably single track operation along the "flats". With the long length of the A line, if a train from 207 St. was late, it would mess up the single track operation for hours. By starting the runs at Rockaway Blvd, there is a better chance of trains in both directions showing up at both sides of the single track area on time.
Hi everyone. I am new to this site but i was hoping maybe someone on here could help me with some information I am looking for. I am an artist and I make metal sculptures, I am in the process of gathering the information I need to make some scaled down subway cars. I got some general drawings from a friend of mine that have the basic outside diamentions of the car such as height, overall length and things of that nature but the drawings i have don't give me any info on how wide the windows are, how far apart the windows are, how wide the end doors are and so on. I am looking to make the St. Louis Car Company R21,22,26,28,29,33,36 style 3 door subway cars. I was wondering if anyone has any drawings or info that could help me out with the necessary measurtements I would need to make the basic shell of one of these cars, I would REALLY appreciate any info you guys could give me. Please email me at djedmixn4u@aol.com...Thanks in advance for all your help...
Ed Walker
1) Come out to NYC and measure the car.
2) get the HO model and measure it with a scale ruler.
There is a book called the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual". I checked and the dimensions you seek are not listed.
Order the book "New York City Subway Cars" from the Xplorer Press. They have the dimensions of many of the New York City subway cars from the R-1/9s. Go to the website at http://xplorerpress.com/cat1.html for information. BTW, the R-26/28s were built by ACF, not the St. Louis Car Company.
#3 West End Jeff
.......as was heard many times on the old Rocky and Bullwinkle show.
The only mail I receive here at Newkirk Images, is many mail orders, followed by some complimentary letters. However, today I received one for the books. I'll quote word for word and I'll leave his name out to protect the innocent. Please, no Darwin Awards.
"Dear Sir or Ma'am,
Is grafitti art ? New York City subway cars had some horrible works of grafitti during the 1970's and 1980's.
However once in a while they were the canvas for some "grafitti art". I personally don't remember seeing these, but there once was a whole book featuring some exquisite "murals" before once again - being ruined by grafitti. I was wondering if it would be possible to have a calendar highlighting some of these "Works of Art".
Sincerely,
M.H.
P.S. Can you explain why anyone would be interested in ordering a back issue calendar. I can't understand the logic.
Let the ranting begin,
Bill "Newkirk"
Many people live in the past. Let's ask Mister Peabody to fire up the wayback machine. :)
Bill will have to wait. If Mr. Peabody is firing up the WayBack machine, I know lots of rail types who want first dibs. Myself included.
So *THAT'S* what happened to it. I was about to change the flip-dots to "delayed" ... :)
Y'all got it wrong it was SHERMAN who fired up the wayback machine not PROF. Peabody.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shaddappa you mouth, Natasha! VTSU Local 1113. :)
I'm still interested in finding a copy of the 1993 calendar. Every month is a great picture, but Aug 1993 is really special in my book!
P.S. Can you explain why anyone would be interested in ordering a back issue calendar. I can't understand the logic.
There are only 14 different types of calendars, 7 leap, 7 non-leap.
2002 is the same as 1991, 2003 will be the same as 1997. Since I know what year it is, I don't need to have it printed on the calendar.
If the calendar told me that this month is OCTOBER 1991, I wouldn't get confused and actually think it's 1991.
And then of course there are pictures, I might have enjoyed the 1997 pictures so much that I would want to relive it next year.
When you said that the e-mail was from some flounder, I was thinking about a big flat fish.
Age problem.....we're talking B/W limited animation, not NYCTA fishing excursions (last trip...nobody caught nuttin but an undersized flounder but a good time was had by all.) CI Peter
I work with Boris Badinov and Natasha Nogoodsky everyday...they are Car inspectors!!!
Sheesh, Unca Peter....
Natasha Nogoodsky??????
Everybody who went to Wattsamatta U knows Natasha's last name is Fatale.
Busy G.O. this weekend and coming weekday
Late Night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Tue to Fri, Oct 15 to 25:
....Late Night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM, Tuesday, Oct 15
_Late Night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM, Wednesday, Oct 16
**Late Night, 11:30 PM to 5:30 AM Mon to Fri, Oct 14 to 18
^^Late Night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM, Friday, Oct 18:
^^^Late Night, 11 PM Fri to 5 AM Sat, Oct 18 to 19
(Late Night, 11 PM Tue to 5 AM Wed, Oct 15 to 16)
Uptown 4 6 trains skip 23, 28, and 33 Sts
(Downtown 4 6 trains skip 103 St)
^^^Manhattan-bound A trains run express from Euclid Av to Broadway-Junction
_Bronx-bound 1 trains skip 207, 215, 225, 231, and 238 Sts
...Downtown 1 trains skip 207 St
^^Downtown W trains skip 28, 23, 8, and Prince Sts.
**Shuttle buses replace L trains between Myrtle Av and Lorimer St.
Downtown A trains skip 50, 23, and Spring Sts.
E runs on the F on both direction between 47-50 Sts & 2 Av.
F runs on the E in both direction between 47-50 Sts and Roosevelt Av.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Oct 12 to 14:
F Trains run on the E between 47-50 Sts and Roosevelt Av
Uptown A trains skip 155 and 163 Sts
No C trains running.
Brooklyn-bound R W trains rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge
from Canal St to DeKalb Av.
Manhattan-bound W trains run on the N from Stillwell Av to 36 St.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Oct 19 to 21:
*Weekend, 9 AM Sat to 6 PM Sun, Oct 19 to 20
Manhattan-bound W trains run on the N from Stillwell Av to 36 St.
Bronx-bound D trains skip 155, 161, 167, 170, and 174-175 Sts.
*Flushing-bound 7 trains skip 69, 74, 82, 90, 103, and 111 Sts.
No #7 service between Queensboro Plaza and Times Sq.
Shuttle bus replaces 2 5 trains between 149 St-Grand Concourse
and East 180 St.
F Trains run on the E between 47-50 Sts and Roosevelt Av.
Q Trains skip Atlantic Av in both directions.
Brooklyn-bound R W trains rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge
from Canal St to DeKalb Av.
G V M 9 remains normal
D makes all local stops between 59 and 145 when C is absent.
If the MTA is planning to consolidate its operations, that's fine, but do they really need to change the names of those operations?
Changing the names of the operations will make things easier. Remember, they are all owned by the MTA, but they have diffrent unions. Referring to the subway as the "MTA" instead of either the IRT, BMT, or IND made life simpler; and this is another step in that direction. -Nick
Public Names, FRA won't let them change the reporting marks of the LIRR or MNRR.
Lou, why can't the MTA rename LIRR and MNRR something like 'MTA Regional Railroad' under a merger?
Certainly the FRA rules will still apply as before.
I assume the MTA can do what they want as long as it doesn't affect actual RR operations...
Not that I want them tho do away with the MN and LIRR names, but actually if they want to name it MTA Regional RR, they can, even if the two RR's don't actually connect. It would not be that much different than let's say the current Metro North. It has opperstions on both sides of the Hudson, and they are both called Metro North, evem though one part goes to GC, and the other to Hoboken.
Can they still do this renaming with the New Haven Line? I realize it is operated by the MTA, but some of the cars are owned by the State of CT. -Nick
I guess they can. The New Haven line is part of Metro North Railroad now. The New Haven Branches beign jointly operated by ConnDot and the MTA. Although I can see where calling it "MTA RailRoad" can be a conflict there.
"I can see where calling it "MTA RailRoad" can be a conflict there"
Yeah, CT has shelled out more than a few $$ for train service, so there might be a problem with that. -Nick
They'll, more than likely, keep their REAL names, as they do now.
NY CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY
METRO NORTH COMMUTER RAILROAD
LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD
MANHATTAN AND BRONX SURFACE TRANSIT OPERATING AUTHORITY
TRIBOROUGH BRIDGE AND TUNNEL AUTHORITY
METROPOLITAN SUBURBAN BUS AUTHORITY
These are their official names and, more than likely, will continue to be.
Peace,
ANDEE
Didn't MNRR drop the word "COMMUTER" from their name a while ago? Used to say MNCR and now it's MNRR.
I don't know if in the official name "commuter" has been dropped. Of course in practice it is dropped. Someone else here mentioned that New York City Transit is officially still NYC Transit Authority, but in practice is NYCT. It may be the same case with Metro North.
Referring to the subway as the "MTA" instead of either the IRT, BMT, or IND made life simpler
I don't know about that - I used to be able to give directions like "take the IRT to 59th and change for the BMT to Astoria" - now you have to know the precise lettered or numbered route, and they seem to change faster than you can say "W"...
As for the names IRT, BMT, and IND - it took the Board of Transportation and its successors the TA and MTA - over 40 years to finally eliminate those names in the minds of the average riding public... I suspect Long Islanders will be calling their RR the LIRR for a long time to come - MTA be damned!!
As for Metro North it is a relatively new name itself and may not be missed if it changes. I used to refer to those lines as the Harlem, Hudson and New Haven - I wonder is that usage still popular or is Metro North now the popular usage?
"As for Metro North it is a relatively new name itself and may not be missed if it changes. I used to refer to those lines as the Harlem, Hudson and New Haven - I wonder is that usage still popular or is Metro North now the popular usage?"
Well, yes and yes. Metro-North is still the common name, but referring to each line is important too. The timetables on the GCT boards use the Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven lines, so you still hear those being used frequently. -Nick
I can see why a guy with the nickname "T Broadway West End" would be against name changes.......
The name changes will probably be cosmetic. The corporate names are unlikely to change. As previously mentioned, it is legally still New York City Transit Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, etc.
"Popular" Names.
"The name changes will probably be cosmetic"
Not this time. If the agency does reform into five new operating companies, the legal names used now will be replaced because the companies they define will no longer exist.
We shall see.
True, I just hope that the boobs don't go out and throw away another $6m on a new logo.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe, but the MTA, like any company, can use any "brand name" it wants for its lines, whatever the legal names are. For an obvious example, Amtrak is merely a brand or trade name. Its legal name is National Railroad Pasenger Corporation.
I doubt "Long Island Railroad" and "Metro-North" will disappear.
"Maybe, but the MTA, like any company, can use any "brand name" it wants for its lines, whatever the legal names are"
Yes, very true. The public names could stay the same, even if the legal names change.
"Maybe, but the MTA, like any company, can use any "brand name" it wants for its lines, whatever the legal names are"
Yes, very true. The public names could stay the same, even if the legal names change.
I expect it to be the other way around. Public names change, legal ones stay the same.
The public names are "brands" which legally named companies choose. The public names can stay the same, change every other day, or whatever their owners like. They can even be retained by "new" legal owners, as technically is the case here.
There's actual restructuring going on. NYCT is splitting into MTA Subway and MTA Bus, with SIR being swallowed by Subway and LI Bus being swallowed by Bus. I don't see how it could be only cosmetic.
Cosmetic in the sense that they can put in another level of bureaucracy, and even give it powers to coordinate separate units, but I would be very surprised if it ended the corporate existence of the component parts.
There are different owners, different franchise holders, differing contractual obligations and differing existences in law. Trying to merge these into single entities (legally) is a tangled web. It could be done, but is it worth the expense.
Operationally, don't forget different corporate cultures.
Think of consequences. If NYCTA literally swallows SIRTOA, there is the little problem that SIRT is still an FRA railroad, albeit operating under a waiver. Labor on LIRR and MNCRR operate under different contracts.
A study of railroad history shows surprising survivals. Little roads seem to have gone completely out of existence until something goes wrong. Example: revival of the Brooklyn City Railroad when the BRT went bankrupt. Example: revival of the Providence & Worcester when Penn Central went bankrupt.
The BMT and IRT seem to have gone to the great depot in the sky, but the names still have legal existence when letting capital contracts for physical plant improvements.
And very on topic: various parties might not be talking about an Atlantic Avenue super-subway but for the fact that the line, alone among LIRR lines, is owned by the City of New York. Why? Because the Brooklyn & Jamaica ended up as part of the BRT over a century ago.
Let me try again.
New York City Transit (or the New York City Transit Authority, whichever name you prefer) is being split. That's not a cosmetic change. Mergers can be cosmetic. This is a split.
Everyone seems to be focusing on the LIRR-MN "merger" and the NYCT-Staten Island "merger". Nobody seems to notice that the NYCT is no more. Having the NYC buses and subway under different divisions is a major change.
It is. I made a post to a similar effect last week. Nobody responded. I guess we're the only two who think this is significant.
This is a significant management change.
There is something good about this: bus managers will be managing a bus organization, and rail managers a rail organization.
This will also find the general managers of each group advocating for budgets - meaning that Subways, Buses and Commuter Rail will each be a constituency vying for funds.
This may do the following: Strengthen the hand of suburban bus advocates; strengthen commuter rail's constituency, and perhaps weaken the subway's constituency, as each advocates in front of Capital Projects for a share of money.
Of course, I could be wrong.
But either way, it's vitally important for riders to call or write MTA and elected officials and make their wishes known.
There is something good about this: bus managers will be managing a bus organization, and rail managers a rail organization.
But what is the real business of the MTA? Is it running a subway system, is it running a bus system, is it running a rail system, or it it running a transportation system? Yes, in terms of day-to-day operation of individual units it should be managers who specialize in those units running the show, but at a higher level what is needed are managers who understand that transportation is the business they are in, and not be blinded to one mode or another.
It's the same lesson that the railroads didn't learn in the '50s and '60s. They looked at it from the standpoint of being a railroad business - real estate, rolling stock, etc. - and forgot that their business was transporting freight and passengers in the most expeditious, economical manner - and consequently their competition nearly drove them out of business because they were blind to it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> consequently their competition nearly drove them out of business because they were blind to it. <<<
Unfortunately, not one of the MTA's worries.
Tom
The MTA would Pettion the FRA to Change The Reporting Marks for MNR And LIRR To "MTA" Or "MTAR".
What Letter would be assigned to SIR? Since It Will Be Intergrated Into MTA Subway. (SIR Runs R44 B Div FRA Modified Cars)
That's a good question. I also wonder is Staten Island will get a letter designation. that really would officially add it to the subway system . I guess it doesn't really matter if it physically connects or not.
What would be helpful about Staten Island Railway getting a letter designation?
Nothing. But it seems the MTA is trying to make it more uniform with the subway system. That is the point behind the latest announcement. Giving it a letter would make it more a part of the regular subway system, at least on maps etc.
It' the MTA's idea to co all these mergings. Personally, I feel they should leave things the way they are. What's the difference if Metro North is officially combined with the LIRR, or all the other divisions they are combining together are combined. Operationally, they will still be seperate. I feel the whole thing is a waste of money. But this is the same MTA that spent millions designing the MTA logo.
They changed logos more than once!
I agree, waste of money.
"Thesis" is a four-letter word around here. Every day, it seems to grow bigger and bigger, and I'm only in the outline stage. Remember, I will have to fill in every single one of those blanks in my outline by the end of this year. And all that I am doing right now seem to be creating more and more blanks. I'll never finish!!!
TRANSIT CONTENT: My T-word is about the intra-city leg of intercity transportation, from a transit authority's perspective.
1. Theses is a 5 letter word
2. Unless your a lazy ass like me your gonna finish in the 2 months you have left.
Unless you are Greek, thesis is a 6-letter word :-)
John
With a total of only 18 posts in the last two hours, it would look like SubTalk will have low usage this weekend.
Those lucky guys are going to have a great weekend at Branford.
And it's not too late to come join us, Karl... we'd love to have you there!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wish that I could be there, Chris, but we set up our tent in Thurmont MD this afternoon in the pouring rain. This weekend is Colorfest Weekend there, and it is normally our best craft show of the year. Our forecast is for rain all weekend, so it may turn out to be our worst show of the year.
I sure hope you all will have better weather at BERA!
Give 1227's bell cord two tugs for me, will you!
> I sure hope you all will have better weather at BERA!
Supposed to rain all weekend..
Here the latest update from National Weather Service for
East Haven/Branford, Connecticut.
>>>"Sunday. Mostly cloudy. A chance of showers during the afternoon. Warmer with highs in the upper 60s. Northeast winds 5 to 10 mph becoming southwest. Chance of rain 30 percent.
Sunday night. Mostly cloudy with a chance of showers early in the evening. Then becoming partly cloudy. Lows in the mid 40s. Chance of rain 30 percent."<<<
Let's hope the 30 percent chance is correct.
; |) Sparky
And if it rains, then we'll all have to duck for cover inside the trolleys and subway cars. Awwww. :)
And won't faze ME a bit. It'll be just like working the Brighton line again, wet leaves, juicy track, the whole nine yards. Been there, done that, STILL hit the 10 car markers. Now hitting a ONE car marker should be a bit more amusing. Looks like some folks will end up with a bit more appreciation of Arnines and those who could stop them on the Brighton line in this kinda schmutz. Heh.
Here's the latest forecast for East Haven/Branford, Conn. on Sunday
>>"Sunday. Mostly cloudy with patchy fog early in the morning. Warmer. Highs in the upper 60s. Northeast winds 10 to 15 mph becoming southeast.
Sunday night. Mostly cloudy with scattered rain showers. Lows 40 to 45. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph becoming northwest. Chance of rain 40 percent"<<
Halleluja, ; |) Sparky
I'll be there rain or shine....if i make it through I-95...just direct me to the R-17 for inspection duty....let me know if 'R9 Eddy' is around. CI Peter
!!!!
Yes! Give my baby a thorugh inspection if you please.....
-Stef
Guys were surprised at seeing me doing a 'walk around.' No pit so I did not crawl underneath for a 'propulsky' inspection. Overall, the R-17 is in great shape despite its age. One cracked door panel window...must be a real killer to change out because door panel must be disassembled. Lights OK, car uses rotary inverter which did not buzz or whine. Trucks use steel brake shoes...I'm not sure if anyone knows how to set automatic/manual slack adjusters but the shoes appear OK (steel) and probably on the trackage will last forever. Car has primer paint and it was raining on and off...maybe someday I'll get to take it for a spin. Needs lubrication/greasing and some undercar cleaning. Weekend time is hard...perhaps I'll get to do a thorough inspection. What surprised me was the lack of PSS switches on doors but that was a much later mod. DCUs were very different from R-33s but concept remains the same. Crew wants me back and that is a very good feeling...means that I have learned a lot in my first year. Perhaps I'll replace 'R9 Eddy' one day...BERA hero. CI Peter
Juice:
Ted Eichmann knows how to set brake slack adjusters. After the 1992 flood, one truck had to be replaced. Brakes on that truck were adjusted after it was installed. However, any help you can give and suggestions you may have are greatly appreciated. Thank you for your observations.
Peter, it was good meeting you! Your enthusiasum and expertise on the Redbird 'class' of cars is just the thing we for 6688.
Hope to run into up at BERA as part of the 'Redbird Workgang'.
Doug
Peter, you'll have to unlearn SCM-1 and SMEE to make room in
your brain for AMUE and PC-15!
I haven't been posting much on SubTalk recently (been too busy to do much more than occasionally lurk), but I'm looking forward to getting up there Sunday. I'll probably leave Philly around 7:00 or 7:30 AM, so hopefully I'll be up there by 10:00. Just listen for a big, loud, beat-up silver Trans Am. :-)
(Wow, I can't believe I've had that damn car a year already. Not a bad car for $450.)
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
'fuggin-ay! GLAD to hear you're gonna make it! :)
haven't found my bells yet!! I'm still lookin'!
Feh, come give bingbong and I a hug and we'll MOO for you. Unless you're ugly, in which case stay on the other END of the car. Watch the closing cab doors! :)
As long as you show, then we won't have to come and DRAG yer sorry butt out the door. Oink.
Dave, bring a towel as foaming at the railfan window will likely get severe! LOL!
Wiper blades and rain=X
avid
haha, I would be be willing to bet, that the car passes everything but a gas station. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I need a Korean to tech me how to use my SammySung Hi-8
Snoogins!
All:
At least through the AM rush of Thursday, October 10, there was one 10-car train of R-29s on the 5. Cars used were 8708/09, 8716/17, 8718/19, 8740/41, 8784/85. It seems to have disappeared since that period, so if anyone sees the train or portions thereof, this info would be appreciated.
One train of Redbird R-33s was on the 2 line October 10, 2002. Last time? Who knows?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It is almost certainly the end of seeing "Redbirds" on the #2 line. All of the R26/28/29s have "officially" been retired from regular service. There is a chance that they could see sporadic service for a while longer. I'm expecting that the remaining "Redbirds" will probably be retired by the middle of next year, possibly sooner.
#3 West End Jeff
It will be the last time when all the birds' are phased out, but until then, I'd expect to see a Redbird now and then on the 2.
Speaking of the 10 Car R-29 train, I rode on it Wednsday afternoon downtown to GCT.
Trainset #24 might push the 29s out? That would be 7031-40?!?
-Stef
need directions!!! There's got to be a quicker way to get there,than going into NYC from here.hit me up!!!
DANG! Good thing I check in ... OK ... NYS Thruway south from wherever, get on the BERKSHIRE SPUR at 21A, then ALL the way out to the Mass Pike. Take it out to SPRINGFIELD MASS, turn south onto I-91 to Hartford and New Haven. Then, for the final stretch once you get to the shore at East Haven/Branford, follow the directions to da casbah HERE:
http://www.bera.org/directions.html
Bring da bling. :)
Or across the Tappan Zee, follow 295 to 95 exit 51. Works coming from the south too... my route of choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, definitely an option as well. Rule of thumb up here though is to spend as little cash on da Thruway as possible. The tolls pile up these days. Plus, crossing the Hudson is FREE as long as you're north of Catskill ... so the suggested route is the bonus route from Smallbany and north/west ... cheapest and fastest from here.
"crossing the Hudson is FREE as long as you're north of Catskill"
How do you cross the Hudson free on the Castleton-on-Hudson Bridge? Not only do you pay the usual $.03 per mile for the Thruway, you also pay a surcharge which is equivalent to a bridge toll.
Dunn Memorial bridge to I-90 or I-90 itself, pick up the Berkshire spur where 90 hits it. It ain't like paying Thruway tolls and THEN the Mid Hudson or Tappan Zee tolls. :)
Damn skippy it ain't!!! every trip to nyc kills my pocket!!! for this trip,can you give me a basic cost outline [if you may sir]in order keep it real with my wallet?
Sorry for missing you, got down here yesterday, schedule went whackadoodle and just got into da room just now. Sorry for missing ya, been a hell of a whirling dervish. We're gonna do this again next year at a time to be figured out. Thought you already had the particulars. Yucky day down here, but the sun came out inside the Arnine and a few other cars for those who made it. Need SLEEP myself. Day here started earlier than the AM tour at MTA and I'm no daytimer myself. :)
THANKS,CAPTAIN.....Are you still up here or gone already?[just turned on the puter... worked a long day today...couldn't get it off like I wanted...] and I still couldn't find my bells!!!!! I wanted the bovine type..8^(
Kevin,
I don't know your scheduled time of departure, so this may be a
tad bit late.
But how about the Bershire Extension to the Taconic State Parkway
South to I~84 East. Follow I~84 East into Connecticut exit 11,
and follow Connecticut Route 34 East to New Haven. You go past
the famed Yale Field. Follow 34 East into New Haven and look for
signs for I~95 North toward New London. 34 puts you onto I~95
just after the split for I~91/I~95. You want exit 55 for your accomodations.
I uise this routing when travelling to East Haven from Ulster
County and the Newburgh~Beacon Bridge.
Connecticut 34, is a scenic 2 lane highway thru the countryside.
See you tommorow at the diner. Need a wake up call, have Nancy's
cell number?
;| ) Sparky
HEY! That might not be a bad routing for some of the other folks coming from upstate. Love9400 and the others might want to consider your idea - that'll work. We're about to leave and will be going the I-91 route. I'll email and explain to you why privately, but that's the way we've always gone down that way since we have relatives to visit along the way and it's the most familiar way since Branford is just south of where we always went.
But I'm sure OTHERS will very much appreciate the hint there!
Article in the Times at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/12/nyregion/12TRAN.html
with all the details on who's for, who's against, and who's sitting on the fence. Kalikow says nice idea, but aren't there more pressing projects?
The paper version even has a little diagram. It would join the A/C tracks east of the LIRR terminus in Brooklyn rather than go out the west end.
New York debate at its finest.
The easiest and quickest way to connect Lower Manhattan to Newark Airport is by extending PATH to the Newark Airport Rail Station. This train will be accessible through a reopened WTC PATH station, as well as the Sixth Av PATH line.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/26256p-24865c.html
"It's an extraordinary project," said Lord Norman Foster, an English architect who designed Germany's parliament building. "It's full of opposites. It's about remembrance; it's about the celebration of life."
Does it come with a bunker?
If it does, hopefully its not on the 8th floor of one of the buildings.
I think its good that they're finally thinking of building tall instead of the horses designed by committee that they had this summer.
Unfortunately they plan to shave up to 40% of the office space off to placate the necrocrats.
Whatever!
All the money that has became avialable will gone before anything has been done. All those billions will be used just for people to battle each other in court over what they want to be built. Westway???
NYT is right that alll the money will be gone due to bickering. I won't be surprised if what is built on the WTC spot will be blown up by someone who got alot of mental problems after 911. The person will think he/she is getting revenge for the execs/govenment not honering the fallen (in the sickos mind that is).
The money will all be spent on rights & clearences. Basically legal battles. NIMBY style. I will think there will be a single 30 story building with condos or something. Something cheap after the city auctions off the land since the city doesn't have the money to build anything. Cortlandt will be finished as cheaply as possable.
All the invisioned "Great trainsit hub" will go nowhere and is fueled by the same yokels as the "Digital Family" and "internet-refrigertor" (ever seen one in stores!!!???huh???) and the dot.com bomb. PR is all it is about, since people want to know the money isn't going into the poltecians/execs pockets. So the people think there will be a great transit hub which ate the money. No one has ever seen a "great transit hub" so won't know what to think and will think it was just PR and built. But the legal battles are what really killed the idea. Nothing major will be built. Paying people on which design to choose will leave no money to do anything. How many designs for WTC hve been submited??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
How much money will it take to sort through them?? And the person/people behind the chosen plan will demand royalty even if they signed a contract which will bring a court order to stop doing any work inconjunction with the desgin.
Today's NY Times has an additional article on moving the C to the Rutgers St tunnel and bringing the LIRR into the subway. It also names some of the interests behind this move.
The arguments against it are high cost ($2-5 billion) and inconvenience (25,000 helped vs. 100,000 displaced) seem not to have deterred its proponents. (BTW, I don't know of any basis for any of these figures.)The obvious technical problems of mixing FRA and subway equipment have not been mentioned. Either this proposal is a red herring designed by its proponents to show that their trade organization is worth its membership dues or there is a more subtle agenda.
The reality is that there is plenty of capacity from the Flatbush Ave LIRR station to downtown Manhattan on the existing BMT trains. The average leave load for the M/N/R leaving Court St is only 52% during the peak am rush hour, according to my calculations. The travel time between the Flatbush Terminal and City Hall/Chambers is 14 minutes according to MTA schedules. (The comparable travel time on the A would be around 10 minutes - saving 4 minutes.) There are 23 tph, which could be increased by 30% to 30 tph should one want to reduce the average leave load level down to 40%. (BTW, at that level and with the old IND seating arrangement everybody would be guaranteed a seat.) Clearly, the existing travel time and crowding level are manageable.
The timing for this proposal, coming after the stock market bubble, suggests something darker. I suppose that many investment bankers are no longer getting chauffered limo rides to and from work. I haven't heard as many requests for limo parking near new office towers as I did a few years ago - remember Conde Nast. These people have to find new ways of getting to work. Some have tried the subway and resent having to mix with the public, whose pension funds they invest. An LIRR shuttle with only one stop between Jamaica and Wall Street (at Metrotech) would be just their ticket.
"These people have to find new ways of getting to work. Some have tried the subway and resent having to mix with the public, whose pension funds they invest. An LIRR shuttle with only one stop between Jamaica and Wall Street (at Metrotech) would be just their ticket. "
Snobs indeed - but if we can rope them into improving transit access downtown, and increasing commuter rail use, hey, why not?
When LIRR service to GCT opens, some snobs who drove previously from Long Island will be riding LIRR instead.
Snobs indeed - but if we can rope them into improving transit access downtown, and increasing commuter rail use, hey, why not?
The cost for improving transit must be weighed with the benefit. The cost, in this case, includes not only $2-5 billion capital costs but also inconveniencing 4 times as many people as it benefits. So, perhaps some of the 100,000 people who currently enjoy rail use will opt to take their automobile instead.
As I noted in my comments, the time saving benefit is marginal at best - around 4 minutes. So, my interpretation is that this is not expansion but expropriation.
BTW, if a non-stop ride from Jamaica to downtown Manhattan were actually a necessity, there are alternative methods for a fraction of the capital cost and without dislocating existing riders.
When LIRR service to GCT opens, some snobs who drove previously from Long Island will be riding LIRR instead.
That bubble will burst even faster than the Nasdaq. :-)
I don't think this is a good way to spend over $1 billion, but I think you're exaggerating the arguments somewhat.
Time saved: 4 minutes.
Surely it takes that long just to walk from the LIRR Flatbush terminal to the Pacific St R stop, and then you have to wait for a train. Also, terminal stations generally take a lot of time since the trains have to crawl in to the platform. I'm not too familiar with Flatbush Ave, but in GCT it takes the trains 5 minutes to crawl from 59th St to 44th St.
100,000 people inconvenienced.
There is no suggestion of any reduction in service on the A and C. Are you saying the merge of 8 C tph with 12 or 15 F tph at Jay St. can't be done effectively? If not, why not? Other merges of busier lines seem to work pretty well. And the A would see a merge with the supershuttle instead of the C, so that would be a wash for A customers.
This "LIRR via Cranberry Street" is the proposal that just will not go away. It's politically impractical and technically dubious. It's just a mask for what they really want which is a dedicated LIRR and MNRR connections to the Financial district.
The fact is that most executives and "decsision makers" live in the suburbs. Those in charge of redeveloping downtown understand this. The fear is that these execs will eventually lose interest in downtown and decide to locate their offices in midtown or the suburbs. There's just a hint of desperation in some of these proposals.
It's just a mask for what they really want which is a dedicated LIRR and MNRR connections to the Financial district.
One way that makes sense is an RER type solution. However, this means that current plans like the LIRR to GCT and the Penn Station expansion are wrong.
Train yards don't belong in Manhattan, even if they are covered by landmark buildings or commercial real estate.
"However, this means that current plans like the LIRR to GCT and the Penn Station expansion are wrong."
The East Side Access plan represents a dedicated LIRR line into Midtown. Nothing wrong with that at all, and not incompatible with other service patterns.
I gather you are not familiar with an RER-type concept.
It would entail taking the LIRR, running it into its 63rd St tunnel, then running downtown in a deep tunnel and out to Brooklyn to connect to the LIRR at Flatbush Ave and then out to Long Island. There would be only 2 or 3 stops in Manhattan - each of them with transfers to the subway system. Metro North would also use this tunnel. The need for a large railroad station which I referred to as a train yard with a landmark building on top would be eliminated.
Yes, the LIRR East Side Access plan is flawed.
So, in other words, there is no train terminal. There are only train stops, some with more intersecting lines than others. That can and does work.
However, you're incorrect about East Side Access. Creating an RER like service here means continuing the tunnel south of Grand Central and thence to Brooklyn. Fine - but you imply that you would have us then dismantle Grand Central Station as it is "unnecessary."
That aspect of your plan is the most deeply flawed of all.
However, you're incorrect about East Side Access. Creating an RER like service here means continuing the tunnel south of Grand Central and thence to Brooklyn
The most complicated - read expensive - aspect of the East Side access program is to tunnel under and along side of the existing Park Ave Tunnel and enter GCT. Instead there would be a deep tunnel on some convenient avenue (3rd Ave ?) that would avoid all these complications. A deep tunnel under 3rd Ave would be be able to connect to the existing East Side subway at 42nd St (and any 2nd Ave Subway), and get downtown without interfering with an existing line. The problem with the GCT is that it is not possible to route trains south from the existing track platforms. The East Side Access plan perpetuates this shortcoming at great cost.
...you imply that you would have us then dismantle Grand Central Station as it is "unnecessary."
I would never dismantle GCT, while the Oyster Bar is still around. However, its usefulness as a transit terminal has past. Trying to perpetuate it by bringing in more trains is a waste.
Your proposed use of 3rd Av is very good.
However, if one were to set the tunnel deep enough under Park Avenue, then the LIRR could continue. Recall that the Lexington Av line is one level there (not a double-decker as it is under parts of Lexington Av) and fairly shallow. The LIRR tunnel will be under the existing Metro-North tunnel and will not be merging with it.
I don't have access to my Final DEIS copy for East Side Access, so I don't recall if the LIRR platforms will be next to the lower (second level down, 100 series) Metro-North platforms or underneath them at a third level.
However, if one were to set the tunnel deep enough under Park Avenue, then the LIRR could continue. Recall that the Lexington Av line is one level there (not a double-decker as it is under parts of Lexington Av) and fairly shallow. The LIRR tunnel will be under the existing Metro-North tunnel and will not be merging with it.
Placing the LIRR under Park Ave complicates design and costs money over routings that are free from rail and subway tunnels. The only rationale for using Park Ave is to gain access to GCT. The only reason for gaining access to GCT is as a terminal and to use an existing terminal.
OTOH, an RER-type line does not need terminals because it enters the CBD from one side and leaves form another. The existence of vast covered train yards, which reflect a City's urban growth patterns in the mid 19th century is irrelevant. Train storage is a non-productive and real estate intensive operational necessity. Its location can be shifted. Only the MTA's inept planners, would consider building new storage facilities today within the CBD.
My guess is that it costs $1 billion to link the LIRR's East Side Access to GCT instead of using a route that is free of existing underground rail lines. That money would be much better spent extending that tunnel 15 blocks further south and getting clear of the solid rock north of 34th St.
Time saved: 4 minutes.
Surely it takes that long just to walk from the LIRR Flatbush terminal to the Pacific St R stop, and then you have to wait for a train.
Let's look at the total picture. FRA regulations mean that this will be a shuttle service from Jamaica and not a one seat ride from the Hamptons.
The shuttle users will have to change at Jamaica. However, the shuttle headways will be far greater than the 2 1/2 minutes offered at Pacific St or Atlantic Ave. So, the overall time for a transfer (walk plus waiting time) should be about the same.
Also, terminal stations generally take a lot of time since the trains have to crawl in to the platform. I'm not too familiar with Flatbush Ave, but in GCT it takes the trains 5 minutes to crawl from 59th St to 44th St.
That's an operational not a structural problem. NYCT tower operators have also been known to cause delays at merge points - or potential ones such as Jay St.
There is no suggestion of any reduction in service on the A and C.
There are a significant number of "C" riders who enjoy a one-seat ride to downtown Manhattan. These people will be inconvenienced by having to change to the "A".
Are you saying the merge of 8 C tph with 12 or 15 F tph at Jay St. can't be done effectively? If not, why not?
Actually it cannot. Merges should be balanced 1:1 to avoid scheduling gaps. NYCT would have done this, as they did previously, were it not for the inefficiencies imposed by link bars.
And the A would see a merge with the supershuttle instead of the C, so that would be a wash for A customers.
This is the type of merge operation that is being proposed using two different agencies.
The "A" express and "C" local merge before Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The "C" and "F" merge at Jay St while the Shuttle and "A" merge. The "F", "C" and "V" merge just before B'way-Lafayette - TILT!!! The "C" and "E" merge just before W 4th St.
The TA by itself has not managed a single merge efficiently.
One additional problem due to FRA regulations. If the shuttle rolling stock is FRA compatible then it cannot operate with NYCT rolling stock in the subway. So, NYCT has to replace all Division B cars including the yet to be delivered R160's. If it isn't FRA compatible, then it cannot operate with the metropolitans into Brooklyn. So, the LIRR will have to abandon one-seat rides into Brooklyn. They will also have to terminate more trains in Jamaica because the new GCT line will have fewer holding tracks than Flatbush.
It's really sad how much power the snobs have. This LIRR-Cranberry project is just typical of what is wrong with these suburban snobs.
I live out here and I see it, they want everything their way, even though every technical aspect of it is wrong.
Like the other day in Szechuan in Greenvale, some rich woman who came in a Mercedes M Class gave the cashier a hard time about paying tax.
I think Nassau has a lot more snobs than Suffolk where I live. (Excluding the Hamptons of course, which is the snob capitol of the region - but off course a lot of those snobs actually live in Manhattan, and the Hamptons are their second homes). Unfortunately snobs have a lot of pull. The whole Cranberry - LIRR idea is the stupidest thing I ever heard.
(There is no suggestion of any reduction in service on the A and C. Are you saying the merge of 8 C tph with 12 or 15 F tph at Jay St. can't be done effectively? If not, why not? )
If they arrive at a similar time, which goes first? Currently, the G goes first relative to the F. To avoid charges of racism, I'm sure the C would also go first relative to the F. And if the C and A arrive at W 4th at the same time, I'm sure the A will go first, with the C waiting and the F waiting behind that. Meanwhile, so as not to back up the E, I'm sure the V would go first relative to the F -- though increasing the capacity at Chambers Street and running the V there on 8th Avenue would reduce this problem.
Botton line -- if you engineers are so sure about the Manhattan Bridge, why not propose running the Super Subway through the Montigue Street tunnel instead? Twelve trains per hours are more than enough to connect Brooklyn to the tip of Lower Manhattan, and these could run on the Nassau Street line.
Build DeKalb to Rutgers in case of further bridge problems then I'd say the Brooklyn would be better off in case of a two-track shutdown than it has been for the past 20 years. And with the new line pointing north instead of west, it could run as an express service on the soon to be deferred ("We must defer, but not cancel, our (city rather than suburban) dreams") Second Avenue Subway up to Grand Central.
As for Lower Manhattan, I agree with Dan that a connection to the suburbs is required for it to remain an attractive location for large corporations located throughout the region. With out such a connection, however, it could still have a valuable economic role -- as a place or residence and business for enterprenuers (who tend to live in the city) and their small to mid-sized one-location firms, and as a New York base for firms from outside the city or country (those posted here also tend to live in the city).
Such firms and locations, of course, pay less rents than Goldman Sachs, which is why Brookfield wants billions spent to increase their rent. It should be strictly a financial calculation for the city and state, however -- Perhaps offices on the West Side, with the Flushing Line Extension and MetroNorth to Penn -- could meet the corporate need. Of, if all tax benefits were cancelled Downtown, would the rise in property values pay for the improvements?
Can wes stop the racist insults on anyone who does not live in the city or owns a car. Stop calling them snobs, and paint Long islanders as altra weathy aristacrats.
The poor slobs who arrive at flatbush terminal are people trying to put food on the table for thier family just like the rest of us.
This would only help rich a**holes who don't like to "mingle with the public." It was a stupid Idea about a year ago and its a stupid Idea now. Leave the A and C as it is and tell these rich snobs to get with the program or MOVE!
"This would only help rich a**holes who don't like to "mingle with the public." It was a stupid Idea about a year ago and its a stupid Idea now. Leave the A and C as it is and tell these rich snobs to get with the program or MOVE!"
No, you don't get it. Rich snobs already don't mix with the public because they drive. Getting them to ride LIRR is good for everyone because LIRR then picks up more riders who pay fares, and because these same rich snobs then have a vested interest in developing and maintaining rail transit in the region. That's always a good thing.
>>No, you don't get it. Rich snobs already don't mix with the public because they drive. Getting them to ride LIRR is good for everyone because LIRR then picks up more riders who pay fares, and because these same rich snobs then have a vested interest in developing and maintaining rail transit in the region. That's always a good thing.<<
So the MTA should say to hell with the people who ride the A and C lines, send FRA epuipment through the Cranberry Street tunnel only to get a bunch of rich guys to ride the LIRR who probably can care less what happens to the LIRR.
But all stuff aside, Even if the MTA wanted to whos gonna split the bill? Not the city, its broke, Not tax payers, Not Albany, and the MTA doesnt have the funds to pay for it.
" This would only help rich a**holes who don't like to "mingle with the public." It was a stupid Idea about a year ago and its a stupid Idea now. Leave the A and C as it is and tell these rich snobs to get with the program or MOVE! " -- SciGuy6586
"No, you don't get it. Rich snobs already don't mix with the public because they drive. Getting them to ride LIRR is good for everyone because LIRR then picks up more riders who pay fares, and because these same rich snobs then have a vested interest in developing and maintaining rail transit in the region. That's always a good thing." --RonInBayside
Where do you guys (and others) come up with this stuff?
Do you know the CEO's, COO's, CFO's and Presidents of your employers? In the last 15 years, I've worked for three different financial service companies in Manhattan -- at all three, the senior-most executives had compensation packages between 500K and $1M+ (today's $$), so I'd qualify them as stinkin' rich. With the exception of those living in Manhattan, every single one took commuter rail/bus and then either walked/ferryed/subwayed to the office. Top executives I've met at competitors have had similar commutes. (Many do, however, take cars home on a regular basis if they are leaving the city after 7 or 8 PM)
Not that I don't think the proposal is severely flawed, but can we keep the class struggle rhetoric to a minimum?
CG
"Where do you guys (and others) come up with this stuff?
Do you know the CEO's, COO's, CFO's and Presidents of your employers? In the last 15 years, I've worked for three different financial service companies in Manhattan -- at all three, the senior-most executives had compensation packages between 500K and $1M+ (today's $$), so I'd qualify them as stinkin' rich. With the exception of those living in Manhattan, every single one took commuter rail/bus and then either walked/ferryed/subwayed to the office. Top executives I've met at competitors have had similar commutes. (Many do, however, take cars home on a regular basis if they are leaving the city after 7 or 8 PM)"
Oh, I agree with you. My post may have implied the people we were talking about is quite large. It is not, and I should have said so. There is, however, a group of folks who recently lost their helicopter and limo rides due to the collapse of the pots which paid for them, and I would welcome them to the railroad.
I meant the group of people being large - not the people being large (as in overweight).
I know class issues play better than anything else with the groundlings, but the broader issue is the primacy of New York's financial district.
Taking over part of IND capacity is a non-starter. The issue is whether commuter rail should be brought to more city destinations, which would almost certainly require a new tunnel.
The essential argument is not much different than just about a century ago, when the Brooklyn-based BRT wanted a Manhattan distributor and the Manhattan/Bronx based IRT and its allies resisted. It made no sense at all for the Brooklyn "suburbanites" to be dumped at a single Manhattan terminal (Park Row) and then be distributed by giving the IRT another nickel.
The eventual result was the Dual Contracts, which gave wide access to the City from what was then the suburbs, and which created the City we have now.
The stakes for the City are even higher now than 100 years ago, because there is very substantial business life in the "suburbs," some of which are becoming employment centers in their own right.
In the broadesr sense, this is not a transit project at all--it is a New York City redevelopment project. Some politicians, like Schumer, get it, and some don't.
Right you are Paul.
I'm also looking at the bigger picture: people should think in turns of NYC regional and not just city vs. suburbs. Those days are gone as the economy and transportation needs dictate an ever growing area of "Greater New York".
It's the only way NYC and it's environs will be able to survive in the future.
That's very well said. It should not be the city against the suburbs. People in the suburbs have got to remember that the health of the suburbs does rely on the health of the city itself. If the city suffers, so does it's suburbs. If jobs move out of the city to other cities or areas because of poor transportation, the suburbs will suffer also as the a good many people that live in the suburbs relly on NYC's economy and jobs. When a city is healthy, it's suburbs are healthy as well.
I'm also looking at the bigger picture: people should think in turns of NYC regional and not just city vs. suburbs. Those days are gone as the economy and transportation needs dictate an ever growing area of "Greater New York".
Maybe it's just my impression, but the city vs. suburbs split seems greater in New York than in most other parts of the country. People here seem to have great difficulty thinking in regional terms. Why this is so, I'm not sure, but it has held back New York's economic development and probably will continue to do so at an increasing rate.
I'm also looking at the bigger picture: people should think in turns of NYC regional and not just city vs. suburbs.
I wish I could, but the unfortunate reality is that each dollar available for transportation improvements can be used to improve the commuter rail for a handful of suburbanites or can be used to improve the subways for many more city residents. The suburbs already take more than their fare share of the MTA pie.
This proposal simply moves the transfer point from LIRR to downtown from Flatbush Avenue to Jamaica. In doing so, it (a) reduces LIRR riders' transfer opportunities from four Manhattan trunk lines to a single Manhattan station, (b) inconveniences C riders bound for lower Manhattan, (c) inconveniences A, C, F, and V riders, who have to deal with new merging delays, and (d) costs a lot of money that could be used to actually accomplish something.
The Broofield plan is just a recipie for a transportation nightmare -- the first time there was equipment problems in either the Cranberry or Rutgers tunnels or pretty much anywhere else between West Fourth and Jay Streets, the entire system would fall apart, affecting not only subway service, but also LIRR service between Flatbush and Jamaica.
The only way this works at all is with a completely new tunnel dedicated only to LIRR trains, and while the Post story last week did indicate that proposal was smart enough to angle the tunnel away from downtown Brooklyn to the Metro Tech area, any tunnel going over to a new terminal at the WTC site would have to cross as many as five subway tunnels (A/C, 2/3, J/M, 4/5 and N/R) in order to get there.
If the business community is hell-bent on a downtown LIRR terminal, better to just get the commuters to a station somewhere around Fulton and Water Streets, away from anything but the very deep Cranberry tunnel, and let them walk the rest of the way to the WTC or wherever they work.
I don't understand why it is so important to have a WTC-LIRR connection. I don't feel the benefit will be that great for the LIRR users unless they work right where the train terminates at the WTC site. Most of them are going to have to transfer to the subway or bus anyway when they get to the WTC station. What is the difference if they have to do that before or after they cross the East River.
As I said in the other thread on this, I can think of several things the MTA should do that are far more important than any LIRR extension to Lower Manhattan. But in a world when NIMBYism can raise the level of inertia on a project to 100 perent, political power rather than actual need is often the driving force on what does and what doesn't get built.
Bloomberg is putting his clout behind the 7 extension to Javits Center, and if enough people with real estate interests in that area go along, it's likely to get built before any Second Ave. subway line north of 63rd St. The same thing applies to lower Manhattan. I think the Brookfield/Cranberry tunnel idea is such a nightmare that the MTA people down at No. 2 Broadway would go into open revolt over getting stuck with their uber-boondoggle for the rest of their careers, so it's doubtful it would get the support of Kalikow and the other MTA political appointees, even though a guy like Kalikow has real estate investments of his own.
But there's still that $4.5 billion in federal funds earmarked specifically for transportation, and $20 billion overall designed for the WTC reconstruction project. Despite all the squabbling right now, the city and state will not say "Well, we can't decide on what to build, so we're just going to give the money back to Washington." Something will be built, even if it's $10 billion worth of projects on a $20 billion budget (New York graft being what it is), and the people at Brookfield were smart enough to see that and tried to stake the first claim to the $4.5 billion designed for transit rehabilitation.
By claiming their project would cost a "mere" $1.9 billion, they're hoping to get that out of the $4.5 billion pot, while the MTA can still get its Fulton St. transit hub for about $1 billion. Even if you grant the MTA its hub (presumably linked with the now-in-doubt predestiran underground passageway from B'way to the WFC), that still leaves $3.5 billion for the remaining WTC area transit projects, so the Broofield plan could suck up all the cash if it got greenlighted and they "suddenly" discovered that, gosh, this Cranberry connection idea bites the big one and we're just going to have to build an LIRR-only tunnel to downtown. Brookfield still gets what they want, probably for all of the remaining money and maybe a few billion more, and subway riders get squat.
If I had my way, the $3.5 billion would go into a Second Ave. subway that would hook into the Nassau Loop, thereby giving it a "WTC area" connection. But at Second Ave. subway connection to there seems to have zero political clout right now, so chances are it will just remain a fantasy. But some project is going to get that $3.5 billion committed to it -- hopefully it will be one that at least makes a little bit of sense.
Nice analysis ... what happens, however, if the Brookfield plan does get $3.5 million, yet that proves insufficient to finish construction? Heck, that's likely to happen. Counting on Washington to fork over whatever else's needed may prove unwise. What New York might end up with is a unfinished project to nowhere, a la the Second Avenue tunnel segments.
(By claiming their project would cost a "mere" $1.9 billion, they're hoping to get that out of the $4.5 billion pot...the Broofield plan could suck up all the cash if it got greenlighted and they "suddenly" discovered that, gosh, this Cranberry connection idea bites the big one and we're just going to have to build an LIRR-only tunnel to downtown.)
At least we get LIRR riders off Brooklyn's IRT, without adding them to the overloaded Lex from Grand Central, or screwing up the subway. But that does nothing for Metro North. I wouldn't mind all this if it were funded by a reinstated commuter tax, but power being what it is it is likely to be funded by a higher subway fare.
The essential argument is not much different than just about a century ago, when the Brooklyn-based BRT wanted a Manhattan distributor and the Manhattan/Bronx based IRT and its allies resisted. It made no sense at all for the Brooklyn "suburbanites" to be dumped at a single Manhattan terminal (Park Row) and then be distributed by giving the IRT another nickel.
The Park Row terminal was more an historical accident than a conscience plan. The intent was to have the Brooklyn Bridge Railway connect to the Hudson River Railroad at Chambers St and continue up the West Side, much to W.A. Roebling's dismay. The monopoly given the cable railway essentially prevented integration of rail facilities in lower Manhattan with Brooklyn's El's.
"The Park Row terminal was more an historical accident than a conscience plan."
When the Park Row Terminal was built there was no Midtown Manhattan and you could walk to any destination downtown. All the IRT (and its elevated minions) were doing, was brininging people from suburban Manhattan (and the Bronx) to downtown.
Elias
"The arguments against it are high cost ($2-5 billion) and inconvenience (25,000 helped vs. 100,000 displaced)"
And pointlessness. Still waiting for the justification for spending billions to merely shift the downtown LIRR transfer point from Flatbush to Jamaica.
Hey Randall Kennedy, don't you lurk on this website? Ask the tough question: "why spend all this money when they're still left with a two-seat ride?"
And pointlessness. Still waiting for the justification for spending billions to merely shift the downtown LIRR transfer point from Flatbush to Jamaica.
Not so. Currently it's at least a three-seat for most downtown commuters who use Flatbush.
The issue are the massive numbers that pack onto the IRT at Atlantic Avenue. This is unattractive for everyone, including thsoe on the IRT. Relieving this would make IRT riding nicer and also free capacity that might be used for expanding IRT services, such as extending the Nostrand Avenue Line to Kings Plaza.
Ending the BRT Lines at Park Row and Delancey Streets also served the purpose, but it was inadequate.
However, I agree that a "super-subway" or whatever solution is short-sighted. There should be provision for thruogh-routing, just as we hope that the AirTrain going to Jamaica isn't the end of the issue.
"Currently it's at least a three-seat for most downtown commuters who use Flatbush."
But most of them don't. They continue to Penn, then take the subway from there to keep it to 2-seats.
On the other hand, with this new scheme, most CURRENT users of Flatbush will face a 3 seat-ride, beause most of them aren't going to WTC.
The status quo is superior for the LI commuters this scheme purports to help. Flatbush is a much better place to make subway transfers than the WTC area. Will be interesting to hear what the LIRR Commuters Council says about this. This scheme is designed to help a particular property owner, not commuters.
The status quo is superior for the LI commuters this scheme purports to help. Flatbush is a much better place to make subway transfers than the WTC area.
For that matter, it's much easier to transfer from the LIRR to the subway, especially the IRT, at Flatbush than at Penn.
"Hey Randall Kennedy, don't you lurk on this website? Ask the tough question: "why spend all this money when they're still left with a two-seat ride?" "
While it is certainly reasonable to critique the project based on cost, the criteria for its success has little to do with the nonsensical "one-seat ride." The "one-seat ride" is a red herring that is essentially meaningless. It is convenient for obfuscating the real issues.
Passengers going to Kennedy really could care less. Cut their travel time to 30 minutes, and they'll pack the airport circulator train like sardines.
"The 'one-seat ride' is a red herring that is essentially meaningless."
I agree with your posts in this regard on AirTrain JFK. Urban commuters face transfers as a matter of course. And at an airport, travellers have to transfer to different systems to get to the plane.
But suburban commuters hunkering down for a long ride (after a commute of sorts just to get to their commuter station) are another matter. If two-seat rides are "meaningless," downtown would still be #1. But it's slid to #3 because Midtown has 1-seat rides.
If two-seat rides are "meaningless," downtown would still be #1. But it's slid to #3 because Midtown has 1-seat rides.
Downtown's decline relative to Midtown is surely due to many factors. For one thing, Downtown has remained too focused on the notoriously cyclical financial services industry, while Midtown has been more diversified. Downtown's narrow, often dark blocks are less attractive to businesses, and the area traditionally has lacked restaurants, stores and other amenities, at least in comparison to Midtown.
I'm not saying that transit access is irrelevant - and in fact Downtown is not so terribly served after all - but only that there are many factors at play.
The reason for the excess capacity on the BMT lines at court street is simple.
It is far faster(and a shorter transfer for LIRR customers) to take the irt 2,5 or 3,4 into lower manhattan than the N,M,R. It takes aproximately 11 min(based on experience not schedules) on the 4/5 to get from atlantic ave/flatbush terminal to wall street station. In additon the frequency of trains are greater.
I always found it faster and more reliable to get off the manhattan bound d/q at atlantic and take the 2/3/4/5 into lower manhattan than staying on the train one more stop and take the m/n/r. Always had to wait for M/N/r plus the trains crawl along.
One issue no one seems to bring up is that if the MTA extends LIRR to lower manhattan they will be loosing 25,000 * $63 The cost most LIRR riders buy in metrocards each month in order to transfer to the subway system.
It is far faster(and a shorter transfer for LIRR customers) to take the irt 2,5 or 3,4 into lower manhattan than the N,M,R. It takes aproximately 11 min(based on experience not schedules) on the 4/5 to get from atlantic ave/flatbush terminal to wall street station. In additon the frequency of trains are greater.
The schedules show 12 minutes for the IRT lines from Flatbush to Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge. I would not characterize a 3 minute savings as being "far faster". So far as I can tell the passageways interconnecting the Flatbush LIRR to the subways is a mess. The 4/5 operate 30 tph. The 2/3 operate 20 tph. The M/N/R operate 23 tph. However, the IRT operates at close to an estimated 70% leave load factor. There are structural problems with trying to increase service on the IRT that are not present on the BMT.
Always had to wait for M/N/r plus the trains crawl along.
The TA's operational shortcomings can overwhelm any plan.
One issue no one seems to bring up is that if the MTA extends LIRR to lower manhattan they will be loosing 25,000 * $63 The cost most LIRR riders buy in metrocards each month in order to transfer to the subway system.
I'm sure that should not be a problem. The MTA will raise the fare by $70 per month, (with or without the super shuttle). :-)
So far as I can tell the passageways interconnecting the Flatbush LIRR to the subways is a mess.
I guess it depends on which subway line you are coming from, but I used the connection between the 3 and the LIRR at Atlantic last week, and it was one of the easiest transfers. Currently the station is a mess, but when they are finished with the major overhaul they are currently doing at both the subway and LIRR stations there, it should become a much more user freindly complex.
Yeah they are working on that whole Flatbush Atlantic complex right now. It should be alot better when they are done.
So far as I can tell the passageways interconnecting the Flatbush LIRR to the subways is a mess.
I guess it depends on which subway line you are coming from, but I used the connection between the 3 and the LIRR at Atlantic last week, and it was one of the easiest transfers. Currently the station is a mess, but when they are finished with the major overhaul they are currently doing at both the subway and LIRR stations there, it should become a much more user freindly complex.
"One issue no one seems to bring up is that if the MTA extends LIRR to lower manhattan they will be loosing 25,000 * $63 The cost most LIRR riders buy in metrocards each month in order to transfer to the subway system."
Not really a concern.
1) Some riders will still need to continue their trips by subway, as the LIRR will not be right next to every possible destination
2) The new service will attract some new riders to LIRR due to the increase in private investment (new businesses, new jobs) so the total pool increases. These new riders will be paying LIRR fares.
3) The increase in available seats on the subway will make the subway more comfortable for its riders, and as jobs return to lower Manhattan these trains will see more riders again.
They need to do something about that stinkin Montague tunnel. Is there really a need to have so many timers, especially Manhattan bound. The tunnel is fairly straight, and the only need for the timers is the Broad st homeball.
The Montague tunnel is awful. A few years back I went to school in Downtown Brooklyn. I lived near the M line. For the first few days, I used to take the M line over the Willy B through Manhattan (yeah the old Myrtle el would have been very useful to me back then) and through the tunnel to Court Street. I hated it. The tunnel seemed like torture. I actually gave up my "one seat ride" to get off at Essex Street and transfer to the F at Delancey to Jay St-Boro Hall. It actually saved me time and was faster to take the M/F combination than to take the through the tunnel. The wakl was the same whether I walked from OCurt Street or Jay Street.
The only thing better would have been a direct "Myrtle Ave El route", which of course didn't exist anymore. There used to be a free transfer to the B54 bus at Myrtle-Broadway that took you to the Jay Street-Boro Hall station also. I tried that a few times also and didn't like that either, so I stuck with the M/F route -anything to avoid using the Montague Tunnel on a daily basis.
How is this going to be acomplished? Theres obviously many flaws to this plan. 1. Where are the A and C trains going to go? If the Cranberry tunnel is being used for service to Wall Street for the lirr then where and how are A and C trains from Queens are going to connect with the 8 Avenue line? 2. How is the MTA(or whoever is building this) going to make the tunnel FRA acessable? You obviously cant mix FRA equipment with subway equipment? Plus where is all the voltage going to come from? the subways have about 600 volts running on the 3 rail. Lirr 3 rails a hell of alot more volts running through them. 3. where are all the LIRR trains gonna come from? Theres not enough room in Brooklyn for additional trackage, and its gonna be hard to build a tunnel from Flatbush Terminal without disrupting 2,3,4 and 5 service. 4. Why is the Cranberry tunnel a canidate for this project? Just a thought.
and a O/T question: Was 1 Liberty plaza built around the same time as the World Trade center? or is 1 Liberty Plaza older?
If the Cranberry tunnel is being used for service to Wall Street for the lirr then where and how are A and C trains from Queens are going to connect with the 8 Avenue line?
The A anc C trains are going to use the Cranberry tunnel. The whole thing is so ludicrous that it's a no starter. What are they going to do, make a Far Roackaway-High Street shuttle? Or force all the A/C service through the Rutgers tunnel? Make the 8th Ave trunk line terminate at Fulton Street and WTC? The whole thing of taking away the Cranberry tunnel from the subway and give it to the LIRR is the dumbest transit idea I've ever heard. If they want to extend the Flatbush line to Manhattan in a new LIRR tunnel - great, but to inconvenience the entire 8th ave, Fulton Street Subway, and Rockaway Branches and give it to LIRR riders is insane.
LIRR Needs new tunnels into Manhattan, and at least everyone in NORTH DAKOTA knows that *my* plan to use the Montauk Branch is much *much* better than using the Atlantic Branch!
Besides: Everybody knows that the SUBWAYS need more tunnels into Manhattan too!
Say... I've got some plans.....
Elias
I don't think the current LIRR rolling stock will fit in the tunnel and be able to navigate the curves or vertical changes of the ROW.
It would take BIG BUCKS and TIME to make these changes.
A smaller car, on the order of the current IND/BMT 75ft cars would be necessary. These had been thought of back in the '60s when the M1s fisrt came about.
avid
About 1 Liberty,
1 Liberty Plaza was built in 1968 across the street from the WTC, It was originally called the U.S. Steel Building. It was built on the site of the old Singer Building, the tallest building to ever be demolished. Ironically, U.S. Steel was rejected when it summited a bid to supply the steel for the WTC.
It was built on the site of the old Singer Building, the tallest building to ever be demolished.
Kind of ironic considering the Singer Building Site was right next to the WTC site - which unfortunately took over that unfortunate "tallest building ever demolished" title.
They resent having to mix with the public - TOO FRIGGIN BAD FOR THEM!
Who do they think they are!!! Grrrrrrr!
wayne
They resent having to mix with the public - TOO FRIGGIN BAD FOR THEM!
Well, the *could* move to North Dakota, unless they also object to mixing with the cows.
Moooo.
Elias
I suppose- sorry for venting. I struggle to keep a roof over my head and there are some people that feel as though they are better than their fellow man - I guess some of them are getting their come-uppance now that layoffs are beginning to hit the investment banking industry.
As for the LIRR-to-lower Manhattan proposal - yes, they SHOULD build something, however, it should not be done at the expense of a major subway trunk route. The right thing to do is to build a new tunnel to lower Manhattan. Here's a suggested route: branch off the current LIRR and run north up Carlton Avenue, then west on Flushing/Nassau, under Parkes Cadman Plaza and then under Orange Street, tunnelling beneath the river and then under Maiden Lane and on to the WTC site.
Price tag: MANY billions. Would they do it? Probably not. Would it be useful?
wayne
I have only one thing to say about using the Cranberry tunnels for the LIRR, SCREW THAT AND TAKE THE SUBWAY! Shows how snobby people can get.
Does anyone what the 6th Avenue (The B, D and the now-defunct orange Q) car assignments were prior to the 2000 start of the Manhattan Bridge Reconstruction?
You mean 2001?
B: R-68, R-68A
D: R-68
Q: R-40
The link to the NY Times news story is here.
It looks like a study will undergo a project to build a new rail tunnel adjacent to the twin, Hudson River tubes into New York Penn Station. The new tube will be able to handle an additional 21 trains per hour during peak times, while the tunnels are running to capacity at 19 trains an hour. The plan also proposes for a tunnel into GCT for LIRR by building another tunnel under the E. River.
The estimated cost for the tunnel will be $4.5 billion, with the impact study costing $4.9 million. Other transit projects may have to wait until this project can be pushed through the budget.
Hope we see a great change in the near future.
About time!
Realistically, what will happen is: MTA will continue with East Side Access (the tunnel digging contracts are already let and fully funded). NJT will dig the new set of Penn tubes. When these projects are approaching completion (the Penn tubes will start construction later than ESA but NJT does not have to build any new platforms or do any station construction) the two agencies will figure out if and how to run a new tunnel between Grand Central and Penn.
The priority now is to get the NJT tunnel into Penn.
If one goes onto the MTA website, the plans for Access to the Region's Core can be found. Basically the idea is to ultimatly unify MNR, LIRR, and NJT into a regional rail network, a la SEPTA. There would be direct rail access from GCT to Penn, so trains can run through midtown without terminating and forcing passengers to crowd the subways and buses for the crosstown trip. I don't remember exactly, but there may also have been provisions for increased access into lower Manhattan.
I found myself in Penn Station on my way towards the Farley Post Office yesterday. I got a chance to see the new NJT Concourse. To me, it is not as big or elaborate as the adjacent LIRR concourse or even the Amtrak concourse. But it works, especially if ARC comes to fruition (and judging from the opportunity to better access to lower Manhattan while redeveloping the area, my guess is that ARC will), which would be a process that plays out over the next 20 years.
This leads to my last point: if ARC does come to fruition, the capacity that currently exists at Penn Station should be just fine, even when Secaucus station is open. Therefore, is there any need to disrupt everything and drain needed cash just to convert the Farley Post Office to a possibly Amtrak-only Penn Station? In my view, no.
"If one goes onto the MTA website, the plans for Access to the Region's Core can be found. Basically the idea is to ultimatly unify MNR, LIRR, and NJT into a regional rail network, a la SEPTA. There would be direct rail access from GCT to Penn, so trains can run through midtown without terminating and forcing passengers to crowd the subways and buses for the crosstown trip. I don't remember exactly, but there may also have been provisions for increased access into lower Manhattan."
Yes, you're right about the gestalt of this.
"This leads to my last point: if ARC does come to fruition, the capacity that currently exists at Penn Station should be just fine, even when Secaucus station is open. Therefore, is there any need to disrupt everything and drain needed cash just to convert the Farley Post Office to a possibly Amtrak-only Penn Station? In my view, no.'
You're correct about capacity. The new Penn tunnel is what's needed to eliminate service bottlenecks. Farley is controversial, but it may be too late, and politically undesirable, to "undo" a deal already signed and funded (money already appropriated). Too many egos involved, and no guarantee that money, if returned to Congress, won't go to pay for a highway in West Virginia that nobody needs.
Reminder to Charles G: you wanted to do a critique of the station plans.
Well, that is a function of modern New York politics at its very best. In my view (and I'm just a lowly politcal science major here) the money appropriated for Farley would be better spent on possibly connecting GCT and Penn, and/or developing vehicles that can run off NJT catenary and the two thrid rail configurations of the MNR and LIRR. But as I said before, in this city, that is asking too much.
It is going to be an interesting situation to see how this new idea of the MTA to conjoin corporate operations of the MNR and LIRR translates into whatever happens to ESA and ARC. Assuming NJT is warm to the idea of easing service patterns in and out of Penn through the new Penn tunnels and a possible GCT link, it may be easier for negotiations if there are two agencies instead of three; the competiting interests factor of MNR and LIRR would be greatly diminished if not eliminated.
But then, this possibly requires changes in the state laws of the two states; in our case, there is such a thing as "Unconsolidated Laws," which was necessary for the construction and opening of the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels. For direct thru service from, say, Dover, NJ to Huntington, NY, such agreements may have to be added under these "Unconsolidated Laws." Sen. Bruno's stubborness (and, altogether, Albany's perennially deadlocked state legislature) may be a big factor.
Let's not confuse all of the non-lawyers with references to the Unconsolidated Laws. A statute is a statute. It doesn't matter whether it is codified as part of one of the several dozen Consolidated Laws or stuck into the last volume of the Consolidated Laws, called the Unconsolidated Laws.
News report from Trains.com Oct. 11, 2002:
"Amtrak will drop its unconditional service guarantee program on November 1, ending the practice of automatically granting free travel vouchers to disgruntled passengers.
Despite the end of the program, the railroad said customer satisfaction remains a priority and that refunds or vouchers would be issued on a case-by-case basis “in the event of serious service failures,?according to an October 4 internal Amtrak memo.
The railroad plans to officially announce the change on Friday, and will not discuss the matter until then, Amtrak spokeswoman Karina Van Veen said today.
The demise of the program was no surprise. Amtrak issued vouchers at more than double the rate envisioned when it introduced the unconditional satisfaction guarantee in July 2000.
“If you look at our on-time performance and the condition of our equipment, ‘satisfaction guaranteed?is not a particularly good slogan for us at this point in our history,?Amtrak President David L. Gunn said in June, when he said the railroad would begin to de-emphasize the service guarantee.
Earlier this year, the Department of Transportation’s inspector general warned that future Amtrak revenues may be diluted by redemption of service vouchers.
From the program’s inception in July 2000 to September 30, 2001, Amtrak distributed about 100,000 vouchers worth $8.2 million, the inspector general said. Although Amtrak envisioned issuing just one voucher for every 1000 passengers ?which equals a satisfaction rate of 99.9% ?it never came close to the target.
The systemwide average from July 2000 through September 2001 was 3.4 vouchers per 1000 passengers, and no business unit met the goal. The performance of long-distance trains was the worst, with 8.3 vouchers issued per 1000 passengers.
Those figures improved systemwide during September 2002, when 2.27 vouchers were issued per 1000 passengers. The 3698 vouchers issued last month had a value of $218,512.
Amtrak had hoped that the program would help it gain repeat business. A 1% increase in rider retention, the railroad said in July 2000, would bring in an additional $13 million in revenue annually.
Ross Capon, executive director of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, said it was unclear what effect the demise of the policy would have on ridership. How passengers react, he said, will depend on how Amtrak responds to service complaints."
How will SubTalkers handle this?
They better give something back when there are problems. I had a major delay and got all the money back in either downgrades en route or through the guarentee. There have been other times where one could theoretically call with a complaint but I haven't, such as not enforcing the no cell phone rule in the Quiet Car, because it was not worth my time. I sure hope they do give refunds in certain circumstances, but some things do not deserve full or even partial refunds.
I rode Amtrak yesterday to DC. Going was fine. Coming home on train 176 it looked like ruash hour IRT with packed seats, aisles and even coat closets and restrooms (doors open with standees) and cafe car sold out!
I'd complain but then I did have an unreserved ticket (I did get a seat the whoel time) but some stood all the way to Philly and some were still standing by the time I got of at Metro Park (and I gave up my seat at Edison!)
The way I see it- I could take the bus anmd have to go all the way to NYC for two mroe hours plus train and subway from MetroPark to NYC.
Next time I'll know to forget Friday and forget 176.
Yes- I'll contineu to rids AmtraK- even unresereved.
That's why if I have an unreserved ticket I make sure to be one of the first on the train... problem is, some people boarding en-route will not have that luxury. When situations like that occur, it's a clear indication that more "local" service is needed.
Then again, that's what you pay for the convenience of "unreserved" travel. You are guaranteed passage on that train. If it were reserved, all the standees would have had to find different trains to travel on since it (should) have been sold out.
Now, if that commuter rail gap between Aberdeen, MD and Newark, DE were closed shorter distance travellers (ie: Baltimore to Wilmington) would have another option.
As long as they continue to give vouchers for serious delays, this sounds like a good idea. Last Thanksgiving Amtrak got screwed when there were major problems in the northeast corridor, so many people were requesting vouchers, and rightfully so! -Nick
The problem is that many, if not most, requests for refunds are done for reasons which are not the fault of AMTRAK. Case in point: the debacle which happened Thanksgiving Sunday 2001.
Bill,
I agree with you that certain things are not Amtrak's fault, and the day which you are referring to is certainly one of those. However, regardless of who's fault it was, your paying customers were forced to spend hours on the train and/or platform, which caused a several-hour delay to their final destination. Amtrak needs to keep their customers happy, even when it may not seem fair to them. -Nick
>>> Amtrak needs to keep their customers happy, even when it may not seem fair to them <<<
I am sure they will continue to compensate passengers for major inconveniences, but they have to stem the revenue loss from providing free transportation (for a trip that could produce revenue) each time a passenger is dissatisfied, when minor dissatisfaction is so common.
Tom
Exactly...forget the minor dissatisfactions, just compensate for the major ones. -Nick
Good idea but I'am afraid that that will allow amtrak to have worse service with no reprisals. But would you rather have service from hell or no srvice?
Well, I have never ridden AMTRAK before so I don't know what the service is like. For segments of railroads which only AMTRAK runs (i.e. from 30th St. Phil. to DC) I guess you would rather have AMTRAK. I am too young to drive a car so I don't know if I would like driving a long distance or not.
I guess experience must tell, not by instinct.
Does AMTRAK really have "normal" service? Anything to expect on your first ride?
How will SubTalkers handle this?
Any SubTalker who ever cared about Amtrak would have never applied for such a refund. They would know that Amtrak needs the $ much more than they do and if they ever want to ride a long haul train in 10 years Amtrak had best get revenue.
Amen. I had only ONE delayed ride in all the trips I've ever taken. But ya know what? The crew entertained us. Now how could you request a refund when folks tried SO hard to make it tolerable and the reason why the train was late was the railroad was screwed up, not Amtrak.
Got to step off and shoot the sheet with the engineer and brakeman from ground level. That was a BONUS in MY book. :)
News report on Trains.com, Oct. 11, 2002:
"Although it appears that Congress won¡¯t pass an Amtrak appropriation measure until sometime after Election Day next month, Amtrak is receiving sufficient funding to avoid another shutdown crisis.
¡°Currently, like other parts of the government, Amtrak is being funded by a continuing resolution,¡± Amtrak President David L. Gunn wrote in a Friday memo to employees. ¡°It appears we¡¯re being funded at a rate of just over $1 billion a year until Congress and the president sort out these budget issues. And that¡¯s good enough, along with about $160 million in our cash, to keep us going for a fair while.¡±
So there¡¯s no immediate threat of any route cutbacks, Gunn wrote.
Meanwhile, the U.S. Conference of Mayors on Friday urged Congress to meet Amtrak¡¯s request for $1.2 billion for the fiscal year that began October 1. The Senate has approved that level of spending, but the House bill earmarks just $762 for the passenger railroad.
"An adequately funded national passenger rail system is essential for the economy and security of our cities and the nation," said Fort Worth Mayor Kenneth Barr, who chairs the U.S. Conference of Mayors Transportation Committee."
Looks like AMTRAK is out of the red. Does anyone know if the $200 million loan has been paid? Good thing contingency plans won't be in effect for NJT and others. We were close to a major breakthrough this past year. Running a railroad without AMTRAK is like losing the backbone of National Passenger Rail Service.
Does anyone have a complete TRACK MAP of freight railroads in NJ? I am more interested in the central NJ area. There are many freight railroads that I have seen in my hometown in Edison and the vicinity. The past day, I saw a Norfolk Southern train lugging over those single-track, metal skeleton bridges which go over thin, local roads. This track encompasses near Roosevelt Park and I believe is crosses under (?) the NEC between Metuchen and Metropark. I know of two grade crossings which mark the same track across Tingley Lane and Inman Av. in Edison.
Many freight railroads cross Edison which I have not known about.
Also in the past, I remember seeing many long-length freight trains in my childhood while playing at Oakland Park between Metuchen and Metropark on the NEC. But nowadays, I only see a few. Did freight traffic decrease on the NEC or am I just checking up on it at the wrong times?
Answers and the TRACK MAP would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
You can purchase a copy of Steam Powered Videos` Railroad Atlas of the NorthEast, which includes New Jersey; However highways and roads are not shown for clarity sake. So you will have to be familiar with the areas in question. Pick up a copy of Trains magazine and you`ll probably run across an advertisement for same. Good luck.
...could not believe it the angels whip the yankees big time !!
checked out the #4 tape it came out clear and very good & clear
man the lights on the r-142s are wayyyy tooooo bright !!!
( i wish that all was what happened that night ) .......
the lirr tapes were nice to see and you see all of the folks who rode
on the D type trip and the sounds as well.. caught everybody !!
hope 2 do it again in 2004 hopefully with some low vs & R1-9s !!
maybe ??
very happy about the angels win and the DEFEAT of the BRAVES too !!
by san francisco yessssssssss!!!!!!!
Eeeyah...R142 lighting is very bright...so is the decor albeit so hospitable for 'scratchitti.' Seating stinks too...can't sleep on a moving train because you slide every time the trainset stops. Lying prone on a still train is uncomfortable too...seating is not deep enough. Cutting interior lighting makes for a better rest during lunch...just don't try to 'roll over' or you'll meet the floor.
Y were they not compatible with the r-62s ??
i agree with your post .
Salaam, did you see my post about your 'filming' on the LIRR Babylon Branch. You said that there were no problems but the conductor said he tossed you at Rockville Center. Who is telling the truth?
on the babtlon line one said no the other was a train fan like me !!
he understood my true motive & express all the way !!!
hope this helps you ...
lol
Actually, it might have helped if the response were in english. Simple question -
WERE YOU VIDEOTAPING THE BABYLON BRANCH AND PUT OFF OF A BABYLON TRAIN BY THE CONDUCTOR AT ROCKVILLE CENTER?[ ] YES?
[ ] NO?
<-b>Just a one word answer, please...
Actually, it might have helped if the response were in english. Simple question -
WERE YOU VIDEOTAPING THE BABYLON BRANCH AND PUT OFF OF A BABYLON TRAIN BY THE CONDUCTOR AT ROCKVILLE CENTER?
[ ] YES?
[ ] NO?
Just a one word answer, please...
ANGELS WIN YANKEES LOSE !! ( #4 train revenge )
had to re start again from jamaca on try #2 !!
got it done the second try
the second conductor dug waht i was doing finally caught the
hempstead bus back to the bus station !!
i had no problems on try #2 !!
ANGELS WIN HORRRRRAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY
YES OR NO?
Salaam, this ain't rocket science. Why is a simple answer so difficult for you?
jamaca station ---------to ----rosedale or valley stream
on the babylon line ... the answer is .....no ??
now are you happy ??
i got the tape done on try # 2 !!
ok ?.................!
Not that I really want to get involved in this, but the first stop on the Babylon Branch is usually Rockville Centre.
yes you are probably right
i can somewhat recall but it was the first station !!
i see what you are saying now !! it may have been rosedale
anyway try again ...
i got off there to go back 2 jamaca 4 try #2 !! ( return trip )..
no problen after that !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no ???
........you be the judge on that !!
from jamaca to the next station then caught the return back
no problem on try #2 ...
ok ?
I suppose that means that you were ejected. Thank You
no i was not ejected i got off that train at the first stop after
jamaca took the next train back & try # 2 was a go !!
( no problem )
...........................
on the babylon line one said no the other was a train fan like me !!
he understood my true motive & express all the way !!!
hope this helps you ...
lol
E 238 Street #5 trains weren't showing up (only 2 trains in about 1 hour, the last one was late) Dyre #5 trains had #2 line strip maps and there was a delay in #4 and #5 trains for about 10 minutes.
Saw at 12:30PM in Union Square station a R-32 on the W Linegoing towards Coney Island
The route roller said "W in Yellow Astoria/Broadway" I believe that this roll sign was made in 1988 and not last year
Thank You
WOOHUU!
Railfan window on that historic EL!!!
Umm, what yard do the R-32s come from?
R32's come out of Coney Island yard for service on the F and N, other R32's come out of Jamaica for the E and R and maybe F's and the rest come out of 207 St yard for the A and C (they are mostly on the C)
Hope this helps
R-32 MU's are assigned only to Coney Island, Jamaica and Pitkin Shops. No R-32's are assigned to 207. All "F" MU's are assigned to Jamaica.
The "C" MU's are assigned to Pitkin.
I wonder if that trainset of R-32s will be a regular feature on the "W".
#3 West End Jeff
There was also a 40m on the Fri. 4455 was in it.
There was a 32 on the W right after the new pick went into effect as well, plus a slant. Yet I had been working it all this past week and saw nothing but the usual 68/A.
There were at least two slants on the W last Sunday.
What the Hell was wrong with the A Line today???? I know it wasn't running Express and that the C wasn't running, but Why did it take 1/2 hour - 45 mins. for a Queens Bound A Train to come?? I was pissed off this morning!
-AcelaExpress2005
Of all the deranged subway disruptions, such as these should be recorded on the MTA website. They should title the page: Travel Advisories. This scheme would go perfect with the NJT website's style:
Click here to view Travel Advisories for NJ TRANSIT.
Now if MTA had something like this, it would at least make up for one bad thing. NJT has 10 rail lines and 238 bus routes, and whatever last-minute advisory reaches the webmaster, it is posted. MTA should hire a job for this to happen as it can become very handy.
hhere is such a page on the NYCT site! it is called weekly service advisories. There was a G.O.
to get there:
go to www.mta.info
click on NYC Transit
Click on Service Advisories
Click on Subway
You'll see a list of all the lines. Click the bullet for your line.
before you do that save it as a bookmark or favorite dependiong on which browser you use. Check it weekly.
I even pasted the URL. Use cut and paste or type the following in the location in your browser"
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm
But the service advisory doesn't say anything about headways of 30-45 minutes. When the M has 24-minute headways and the 3 has 20-minute headways, service advisories are posted. It sounds like something went wrong and Acela wants to know what it was. (Chances are he'll never find out.)
I know this may seem like a dumb Idea but it maybe JUST maybe can save the MTA millions of dollars a year. Can't the MTA lease off the LIRR and MNR to the Port Authority for a few years until the MTA can get back on its feet? I know the Port Authority cant control anything within 25 miles of the Statue of liberty but can't it bend the rules for a few years? Its really a win win situation. The MTA would have more attention for the subway and bridges and can save alot of money while the Port Authority can earn some extra bucks and give needed attention to both the LIRR and MNR (and maybe get the New Haven line from Conneticut).
Again it may be a stupid idea, but it may be the Idea that saves the MTA and Port Authority.
This will make no new money, only redistribute the money. So let's just say that the Port Authority pays all of its revenue as lease payments to the MTA, where will the money for PA expenditures come from? Will the state have to bail out the PA with the MTA surplus?
If you have to admit it's a stupid idea, then why post it in the first place?
It seems like no one really talks about these three subway lines too much.Who here uses the (J), (M), and (L) a lot, and how many people here actually live close to them? I just wondering.
I remember I use to live around the corner from the Myrtle Av./Wyckoff Av. Station.
I was raised in Brooklyn one block down from Myrtle av near the brooklyn navy yards. I use to ride to old MJ Q cars from Vanderbilt av to Metropolitian ave. In fact I also rode on the open gate cars before the Q cars. I was probably around 4 or 5 years old at that time. That was a great ride out and over Broadway and Myrtle ave, even though it would have been costly they should have saved the El or up graded it. Can anyone tell me about the changes out by East New York on the L line at Atlantic ave. thanks
I use to ride the jamaica ave El from 168th Street to downtown Manhattan to work in the 1970's before they discontinued the service out to 168th St. I moved away in the mid 1980's. In my Book there is nothing greater and a ride on a El in New York City.
Amen to that. I love elevated trains. I love operating them even more.
I am hoping to make a trip back up to NYC next year and I will make it a point to grab any front door that may still be available and enjoy the view. I will probably ride the J, M, L, F and hopefully the 7 express. I hear that Stillwell av is almost not being used, any idea on how the line up of train or tracks will be set up including the feed lines from the brighton and culver? Sorry for so many inquiries but I can't get to much info from Florida and Its been at least 4 years since my last visit. any way thanks for any up dates on the changes
john
The L may not have a railfan window anymore. The 7 may have a railfan window only at one end (the Manhattan-bound end, it appears). The F runs mostly R-46's, which don't have railfan windows, but occasional R-32's show up.
Only the W is serving Stillwell. The N terminates at 86th Street, the F terminates at Avenue X, and the Q (local and express) terminates at Brighton Beach.
Thanks David, I do appreiate the information. I guess I will look for pictures and read sub talk to see how things are going till I can make my way up there thanks again
john
When I'm in town and want to get back to Jamaica Station, I always take the J/Z when I'm in walking distance of those trains in preference to the IND, assuming that I haven't gone to Penn to catch the LIRR. But I have taken the J several times.
I always enjoyed the J line. I used it all the time when I used to live in Ridgewood and had to get to the LIRR at Jamaica. I don't live there anymore, but do go to Ridgewood occasionally on business. If I don't drive there, I do take the LIRR, although I have gotten into the habit of using the LIRR East New York-Atlantic Ave L train connection instead, and take the L to the M. It is faster than the trip out to Jamaica, so lately I don't ride the J too much anymore. I'm really surprised that that connection isn't used more. It's a simple transfer. In fact, I believe the Atlantic Ave L station is the least used station in all of Brooklyn! (aside from maybe the shuttle)
I thought the least used non shuttle station in Brooklyn was Bushwick-Aberdeen, no?
No, IIRC, I think it's Atlantic. Although I'm only going on what someone posted here though. A few weeks ago someone posted stats on the most and least used stations, but I forgot what the thread title was, so I can't even search for it. Maybe the person who posted it will see this and repost it.
I think it was me.
In 2000, Atlantic had 236,626 boardings and Bushwick-Aberdeen had 259,722 boardings. (They may have switched places since 2000.) The next few Brooklyn stations on the list are Cypress Hills (333,285), Central on the M (351,637), Bay Parkway on the F (363,738), Chauncey (442,671), Livonia on the L (449,544), 86th Street on the N (453,684), Junius on the 3 (485,484), Neptune on the F (504,118), and, finally, Park Place on the Franklin shuttle (508,091). I guess not many people use the unofficial L - 3 transfer over the LIRR tracks.
The busiest Brooklyn station is the Borough Hall complex (9,923,338), followed by Utica IRT (8,344,353).
i live on the bowery so the JMZ are just a couple blocks away...delancey-essex is also nearby
Can anyone tell me about the changes out by East New York on the L line at Atlantic ave. thanks
I agree that they should have upgraded the old Myrtle el instead of abandoning it and converting the route to buses. There was a proposed train order (R39? I think) that was supposed to be an order of trains to replace the trains on the Myrtle and 3rd ave els. Unfortunately they chose to abandon both of them instead.
As for Atlantic Ave on the L, they are in the process of a reconfiguration on the whole Atlantic ave segment of the L line. They will be abandoning and remmoving both the current Manhattan bound platform and abandonned Center platform at Atlantic. Soon, only the current Canarsie bound platform will serve trains in both directions, with all the other platforms and trackways being removed.
Wow!!! Sounds like they will be removing alot of steel from the Canarsie line. They should have ugraded the remaining sections of the Fulton El before they allowed the IND to to build under the El and send the fulton El into the history books. Don't get me wrong ,I also love fast subway rides, but you just can not beat a ride on the El. It is just a different world high above the streets of New York.
thanks John
They should have ugraded the remaining sections of the Fulton El before they allowed the IND to to build under the El and send the fulton El into the history books
I agree. (In a more reasonable planning of the IND - Forgetting the politics at the time involving the BMT, IND, and IRT) A good part of the Fulton El was already rebuilt to dual contract standards. I also do like the Fulton Subway, but I feel it was a waste of money, that could have been spent better elsewhere, building a subway in other parts of Brooklyn where there were no subways, or in Queens, or under 2nd Ave in Manhattan where there was a big push to remove the els. The area around the Fulton el was already served by the el - a good part of it strong, dual contracts rebuilt el.
I think the subway map would look a lot different today, just by the simple fact of the IND not building the Fulton Subway, and leaving the Fulton El:
First of all, the money spent on that line could have been used for another, more needed line, instead of replacing a perfectly good el. (imagine a 2nd Ave subway, or another much needed line in Queens to name just two), and you would still have service on Fulton St - just on an el instead of underground.
The Fulton El could still have been connected to the Cranberry tube (and would have had to be, to be viable). The Cranberry tube would have been necessary either way.
The Rockaway line would probably not have been connected to the Liberty el (although still could have been), and instead probably would have kept it's full length and connected to Queens Blvd at 63rd Drive, like was originally planned.
Again forgetting that the intent of the IND was to cripple the BMT and IRT, redundant lines could have been avoided. Only after some of the more important projects were completed should they have even thought of replacing rebuilt dual contract els, like the Fulton El. Even a Myrtle Ave subway should have been thought about before a Fulton Street subway, just for the fact that much of the Fulton el was strong enough for heavy subway cars, while the Myrtle was not.
I agree, the IND was out to stomp out the Els, look at the Culver line, they managed to access the line at McDonald av doming the BMT connection at 9th av. That ended the direct connection from 4th av to the Culver after 1975 when they dismantled the 39th street section of the Culver El. Just imagine how sucessful they would have been if they would have built the 2nd av subway. Manhattan would have been easier to travel. Also if the IND could have connected the south ozone park/ rockaway line with the Queens Blvd line, they probably could have connected with the airport before Howard Beach became more conjested and would have had their JFK Express direct to Manhattan/
Alot of if's, if politics was not part of the game. They should have let the Railroad people run the railroad or I should say the transit system and checked the politics at the door
I agree, the IND was out to stomp out the Els, look at the Culver line, they managed to access the line at McDonald av doming the BMT connection at 9th av. That ended the direct connection from 4th av to the Culver after 1975 when they dismantled the 39th street section of the Culver El.
True, but at least the Culver el wasn't dismantled and money wasted on a "Mc Donald Ave subway" that was not necessary. If the BMT was doomed to become a part of the NYC subway anyway, at least they could have hooked up the Fulton Street El to the IND Cranberry tube, similar to how the Culver El was hooked up to the IND, and then spent the Fulton Ave subway money on the still much needed to this day 2nd Ave subway. That way there still could have been a Fulton Line (in the form of an el) as well as a 2nd Ave subway or something similar. Oh well, it's all water under the bridge at this point, but it's nice to imagine what could have been.
Your right but I will tell you its great to think back on what was and naturally how some things have changed. I do not quite remember but where were the Cranberry tube supose to be? I remember reading in one of my subway books that they were thinking of making a Ashland connection to the BMT under Flatbush ave for the Fulton St line. Am I in the right area or am i way way in the wrong location?
john
Actually, the Cranberry tube is the current tunnel that connects Broadway-Nassau St to High Street, that the A and C runs through. The other tunnel you mention must be one of the proposed IND Second System tunnels (which I have also heard of), which also never made it. I don't know what or where it was to connect.
If not for the Great Depression killing it, the IND second system had some impressive routes. The Broadway Brooklyn El was also supposed to be replaced by subway a block or two north of Broadway. Also a Myrtle Ave subway east of Wyckoff was also to be built, in addition to many other routes. If the Second System was built, not only would more els be gone (glad they're still here), but one of the good things would have been that Queens was to be much better served.
I use to work in Downtown Brooklyn in the 70's and 80's. I use to travel several routes there. One being the LIRR from Rosedale to Flatbush av and on to the IRT to Bourgh hall, The bus to Jamaica and either take the F train from Parsons Blvd through Manhattan and over to Jay street and naturally up til I beleive 1977, I would travel on the Jamaica line from 168th St to East New York and on to the "A" train.
I can recall also remembering there being R9 cars on the line in the late 1970's and I guess r27/30 I think, Don't hold me to that one its been a long time. By the way that connection was mentioned in the Under The Sidewalks of New York. There was talk of a Ashland Place connection with the Fulton El and the subway under Flatbush ave. It mentioned that De Kalb av was designed to permit the construction of ramps for the Fulton El and this was being considered in 1913. This is a very interesting book to read if you have time.
I have "Under the Sidewalks of NY". It is a great book. It's a few years since I've read it though. I have to pull it out one day again and reread it. I vaguely remember reading about the Ashland Place connection. Imagine if the Fulton El had been connected Dekalb! ---As if Dekalb isn't busy enough! While I don't feel the Fulton Subway should have been built, the Cranberry Tube that the A and C currently use was a good addition to the system (even if it had been built for the Fulton El instead). Without it, if the Fulton El was connected to DeKalb with the Ashland Connection, there would have been way to much reliance on the Manhattan Bridge. Think of the mess that would have been on the system currently with all the work on the bridge for the last decade or two!
The Manhattan Bridge would have looked like the LIE heading for the Mid town Tunnel. I do keep the subway book near my computer desk just for reading and referancing if I see any conversations that I might be able to contribute to. I could never figure out why they terminated the Fulton line at Lefferts Blvd. It was always an off the beatin path place to put it. If you drove to it, you really had to look for street parking some where near the El. Especially in the Winter was rough. They should have had some in site to bring it through Jamaica and out to Springfield Blvd. That would have cut back on some of the heavly traveled bus routes in the St Albans area.
Does anyone know if the Fulton EL was supposed to go further than Lefferts Blvd? I also wondered why they Lefferts was chosen for the terminal of the Fulton El.
I am not sure but I remember a time when the TA had big plans back when Chairman Rowan was around to build new subwasy line out under the LIE, the 2nd ave Subway andthere were other items on their wish list back then. There may haave been a plan to Extend the line out further on Liberty Av. but again I really don't remember the exact details to their proposals
If Fulton had been connected to DeKalb, then the line connecting DeKalb to Prospect Park wouldn't have been built (at least in the earlier plan), and the Fulton would have remained the access for all the Brighton trains (which would have most likely been much less since they would have had to share with Fulton trains), so it wouldn't have been that much more traffic.
Imagine if they had done that-- The Brighton would be just like the Myrtle line, with a grade crossing and tight curve that could probably not have handled 75 foot cars, and a longer slower route downtown. The reason the Eastern div. is the way is is is because they rebuilt and reused old els instead of replacing with dual contracts subways. (The 14th St line is our one exception)
Your right but I will tell you its great to think back on what was and naturally how some things have changed. I do not quite remember but where were the Cranberry tube supose to be? I remember reading in one of my subway books that they were thinking of making a Ashland connection to the BMT under Flatbush ave for the Fulton St line. Am I in the right area or am i way way in the wrong location?
john
Usually we only talk about the L Line because of the R143.
-AcelaExpress2005
In the 80's I lived near the Forest Ave station on the M line. I used the M line every day to get to High School. In the 90's I moved, but then lived near the Fresh Pond Road station, so then I took the M line every day to college. Now I no longer live there, but occasionally go back because I do have friends in the Ridgewood area.
How is service in that neck of the woods, as I may be moving there soon...
I assume it's the same as when I lived there, but I really never had a problem with the M line. The headways are a bit longer than some other lines, but were acceptable. The only thing I use to hate was on weekends having to transfer to the J at Myrtle, as they run shuttle on the weekend, but the connection was usually pretty good. It's also fine if you transfer to the L at Wyckoff, the L runs fairly good also.
If you are used to service such as on the 7 or the Lexington line, the M pales in comparision, but I never really minded the service. It seems better than some other lines like the N or the R.
Well, I live on the "R" in Bay Ridge now. So, I guess it can't be any worse...
Yeah, the M will be much better than the R.
But in this area, you have to transfer several times to get many places. The M and L may run decently in themselves, and the J may conncect with the M, but when you try to get to other lines in Manhattan, then you may miss connections, those lines may be running slow (The F to Delancey can be a wait on off hours), and there may be delays. Over here is not even connected well to the rest of Queens. You should have seen the headaches I've had getting from here to Astoria the past 2 days.
I would stay on the R. It may have delays, but at least once it comes, it will take you directly to all the main districts of Manhattan and Queens. My wife thought it was horrible too, but she was over there in the late '80's when they were having a lot of service disruptions and service was a bit worse. But it is better than over here where I feel trapped many times, and she's reluctant to go a lot of places because of all the transfers.
The service on the JML is not bad in and of itself. But I agree the transfers are a pain. One very useful change would be to restore the K service from either Metro or Jamaica (or even Canarsie) through the Chrystie connection and up 6th Ave. ]
Maybe a M train-V train merger,
Or an M train-C train merger.
Ah, there hasn't been much Eastern Division talk because I haven't been posting much :)
Tony how are they doing with the changes at Atlantic av Canarsie Line?
How are the new r 143 operating. The last trains I rode were the r 68's on the culver a long time ago
I don't quite know, I have lived in North Carolina for the last 12 years, and only get up home about once every 2 years...haven't been back since summer of 2000.
Sorry, I can't help you on this one...
Now, if you were to ask about all the services that ran through Atlantic back in 1915....
:)
I have been out of the City for 15 years. My last visit was about 5 years ago, but I am plannig a trip hopefully next year. Now 1915 in East New York must have been a fantastic time for El rides. I saw pictures and wished I had the oppotunity to ride those lines back then like canarsie, fulton, 5th av and the brooklyn lexington lines. but at least I had the Myrtle ave El from Jay street to Metropolitian av. and yes the Broadway/ jamaica line out ot 168th st . talk soon
john
Sure, let's talk about the J,M,L lines.
Does anyone remember when the last R-9's ran on the J,M,L lines? I seem to remember some running on the L line during the mid to late 70's.
Does anyone agree with me when I say that the M line should be OPTO shuttle between Metro and Myrtle/Bwy 24 hours a day, seven days a week?
Does anyone agree with me when I say that the M line should be OPTO shuttle between Metro and Myrtle/Bwy 24 hours a day, seven days a week?
Definitely disagree. It's fine for nights and weekends, but during weekdays it gets enough use and passengers to keep it's normal service. There is no way all of those passengers between Myrtle and Metro should have to transfer at Myrtle during rush hours and mid days.
"Does anyone agree with me when I say that the M line should be OPTO shuttle between Metro and Myrtle/Bwy 24 hours a day, seven days a week?"
I'm going to have to disagree with that. I understand you would say this because the M looks useless to you but it does its part, especially on the Broadway el when J's and Z's skip stations between Myrtle and Marcy Aves in the peak direcrion & people wouldnt want to x-fer at Myrtle, in the rush especially. I think it should run to Chambers with the J during off hours and it should be a Myrtle-Metro Av shuttle ONLY in the late night hours. Agree or disagree?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
I'm going to say 1976-77 was the last years R-9's ran on the Eastern Division, but if they ran as late as 1979, I wouldn't be surprised....My gut says 76-77, but my memory says 79, tell you one thing, definately weren't any after 80.
How's THAT for a wishy washy answer :)
March of 1977,last month of service for the arnies. AND lOVE THE J/M/Z LINE.
Thanks, I'm glad my gut reaction was the correct one....
And, yes, I agree, the Eastern Division is the best, the Southern Division is BORING...
The Eastern Elevateds, now THAT'S where it's at.
Yeah, Eastern District is great. It will always be my favorite because I grew up around it. Long elevated runs, and relatively light ridership compared to other lines, make the Eastern Division an interesting place.
You have the Willie B. The extension to the abandoned Myrtle "el". The cavernous Bowery station. Chambers St, which is one of my all time favorites.
But I can't wait until I can operate a train in the Rockaways. That's something I hope to accomplish in the next year or two. I love those old LIRR stations, and the view of the ocean.
Yeah, Eastern District is great. It will always be my favorite because I grew up around it. Long elevated runs, and relatively light ridership compared to other lines, make the Eastern Division an interesting place.
You have the Willie B. The extension to the abandoned Myrtle "el". The cavernous Bowery station. Chambers St, which is one of my all time favorites.
I couldn't agree more. Actually part of what makes the J and M so interesting is the long elevated runs, and the Broadway portion is so interesting probably because of the "disaster" of a neighborhood it runs through. Chambers is one of my favorite stations even though it is a complete wreck. It has a glow of elegance even though in total disrepair. I'm sure it must have been some station in it's day. As for the rest of the Eastern Division, the L line probably has some of the best mosaics in the system, probably only rivaled by the contract one stations of the IRT. And even though most of the stations along the L line date from the 20's, the original tiles held up fairly well. I particularly love the run of the L line after Myrtle, going Canarsie bound, when you dip in and out of the underground a few times before finally ending up at Broadway junction.
Yeah. The Eastern District is great. I remember the first time I crossed the Willie B at night, and thought it was the greatest.
When you think about it, much of the B division has a certain charm. The Sea Beach, the Brighton, the West End, the Culver, and even the trips to Rockaway are very nice.
It's the IRT that I find to be without character. That's one of the reasons I can't wait to transfer out of there.
You don't think the 1 line has character? It certainly has variety: typical three-track el, unique two-track deep tunnel, typical three-track subway, unique three-track arch viaduct, unique three-track bored tunnel, more typical three-track subway, typical four-track subway, typical two-track subway, and a loop terminal that isn't unique but is of a form you won't find in the B Division.
Personally, I find the West End and Culver els as dull as can be.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure there are many who feel the same about the A division lines as I do about the B division branches. Railfans usually have a place in their hearts for the lines they grew up riding the most.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure there are many who feel the same about the A division lines as I do about the B division branches. Railfans usually have a place in their hearts for the lines they grew up riding the most.
That is very true. I love the Eastern Division, becuase I grew up with that line, and watched it change throughout my childhood. Most of my other favorite lines are lines that I rode regularly throughout my teens and early 20's, such as the Lexington Line. I'm sure if most people look at their favorite lines or routes, this will hold true.
However, even if I lived near the West End or Culver Els and rode them frequently, I still feel it may be hard to find those els all that interesting. There are many lines that I find interesting, even if I had no riding experience on them when I was a child, such as the Broadway-7th Ave line, the Sea Beach, some of the Bronx els, etc. Some lines are just naturally more interesting than others. And some, such as the boring West End, I guess a person had to grow up along that el to find it interesting.
I'm not denying you the right to an opinion! I'm just a bit surprised. The 1 isn't a very popular line among railfans, but I think that's largely because most railfans have yet to discover its intricacies.
All I remember growing up on the subway was a noisy, dangerous, filthy, uncomfortable system that was to be avoided if at all possible. My first railfan experience was at age 15, but I wasn't able to do much railfanning for another 11-12 years after that.
I have nothing against the B Division as a whole -- it has some very interesting sections, and it's probably more interesting overall than the A Division overall. I was asking about one particular A Division line that I think is a railfan's delight despite being unknown to most railfans.
All I remember growing up on the subway was a noisy, dangerous, filthy, uncomfortable system that was to be avoided if at all possible. My first railfan experience was at age 15, but I wasn't able to do much railfanning for another 11-12 years after that.
"Noisy" - yeah that was true - all the windows and doors were open - the tunnels were loud! "Dangerous, filthy, and uncomfortable" - It's amazing that I like the subway so much considering that's how I remember the subway in my earliest riding experience. I remember riding with my father on the L and M lines, and the trains were so bad. I guess that was about 1976, when I was about 5. They were R27-30's and R16's and were strewn with grafitti, the only time you could look out the window was if you were lucky enough to get a car that didn't have spraypaint on them, or the door windows were quite often missing all together, yes just open gaps where the window used to be - and they still ran the trains! Of course all the regular windows were open anyway, so it didn't really matter if the door windows were "open" also. My father hated the subway, but with good reason, it was a wreck. I always seemed to like it though. I would always look forward to getting off at Union Square and riding the "clean line" (N line) and getting the "ding-dong" trains (R46), as I used to call them. Yeah, in the 70's that refrigerator tile looked pretty good considering that you couldn't see the tiles anyway at most of the L line stations, with all the grafitti. The Broadway line was kept fairly clean and grafitti free and so were the R46's (or at least cleaner than most trains, but bad by today's standards).
All I remember growing up on the subway was a noisy, dangerous, filthy, uncomfortable system that was to be avoided if at all possible. My first railfan experience was at age 15, but I wasn't able to do much railfanning for another 11-12 years after that.
Same here. When I was a child, I always assumed grafitti existed since time began and that crime was an everyday thing.
In the 70's when I was a kid, I remember thinking that people were killed all the time in the subway. I don't think it was just me though, alot of people had that image of the subway. It took a long time for the NY subway (and even NY as a whole) to loose that stigma. It's only the last few years that you can even watch TV or a movie and actually see the subway portrayed in a positive way. Long after the subway was already cleaned up, TV and movies still showed the subway as a horrible, filthy, dangerous place.
If anyone has ever seen the "All in the Family" subway episode, that horrible filthy mess, and the weirdos that were on the train with theem is the image that the subway had (and at the time, probably accurately). And aside from a drunk in both episodes (some things never change), now compare that the "I Lucy Lucy" subway episode of the 50's where everyone had a suit and tie and the subway was clean! Only recently does TV show the subway like that again - well minus the suit and tie maybe.
Grafitti got really bad around 1970 and stayed out of control for many years. From what I saw on my last visit a few years ago the MTA really cleaned up the trains and kept them clean. But I will tell you that as a youngster in the 1950's and 60's the subway was still alot cleaner and safer than the 1970'
All I remember growing up on the subway was a noisy, dangerous, filthy, uncomfortable system that was to be avoided if at all possible. My first railfan experience was at age 15, but I wasn't able to do much railfanning for another 11-12 years after that.
"Noisy" - yeah that was true - all the windows and doors were open - the tunnels were loud! "Dangerous, filthy, and uncomfortable" - It's amazing that I like the subway so much considering that's how I remember the subway in my earliest riding experience. I remember riding with my father on the L and M lines, and the trains were so bad. I guess that was about 1976, when I was about 5. They were R27-30's and R16's and were strewn with grafitti, the only time you could look out the window was if you were lucky enough to get a car that didn't have spraypaint on them, or the door windows were quite often missing all together, yes just open gaps where the window used to be - and they still ran the trains! Of course all the regular windows were open anyway, so it didn't really matter if the door windows were "open" also. My father hated the subway, but with good reason, it was a wreck. I always seemed to like it though. I would always look forward to getting off at Union Square and riding the "clean line" (N line) and getting the "ding-dong" trains (R46), as I used to call them. Yeah, in the 70's that refrigerator tile looked pretty good considering that you couldn't see the tiles anyway at most of the L line stations, with all the grafitti. The Broadway line was kept fairly clean and grafitti free and so were the R46's (or at least cleaner than most trains, but bad by today's standards).
Oops sorry about that, ignore that post, that wasn't supposed to be reposted, I left for lunch and the first time I posted that it was still on the screen, and pressed the wrong key when I returned.
Chambers St, which is one of my all time favorites.
Wow, for anyone who either likes Chambers Street, or those that think of it as the worst in the system with no hope, take a look at the photo in this thread:
They complain, and complain
Thanks. My interest in these cars has been piqued once again for several reasons.
One reason, is that I've been taking those old practice exams for T/O, which ask questions about the R-9 and older equipment. I came across the practice exam booklet while doing some house cleaning, and figured I'd give those old tests a try.
Second reason involves a recent conversation I had with a switchman at Continental, who says the R-9's were retired in 1987. I told him he was probably thinking about the R-10's, which is close enough. He swore up and down that the R-9's were around, but I think he was confused.
I think he was confused also. It does sound more like the R10's, which were around till about 1987. I don't ever remember riding an R9, and I rode the subway almost every day (on the JML lines) from 1983 on, and never rode on a R9. I may have in the 70's when I was a kid, but have no memory whatsoever of them if I did. The earliest trains I remember on the JML lines were the grafittied R27, R30, and R16's (along with grafittied R32, R38, R40M and slant, and R42. They all ran on the M line in the early to mid 80's.) And of course, I remember the R10's both grafittied and green on the H and C. The R9's must have been fully retired before 1982, or I would have had some memory of them.
No, the needs to go its entire length on weekday rush hours. The Bway/Myrtle Av. platform would insanely crowded if the (M) was to be a shuttle 24/7. The (J) line by itself going to Manhattan would make it a pain in the ass for daily (M) train riders that have to get into an already crowded (J).
No, the (J) needs to go its entire length on weekday rush hours. The Bway/Myrtle Av. platform would insanely crowded if the (M) was to be a shuttle 24/7. The (J) line by itself going to Manhattan would make it a pain in the ass for daily (M) train riders that have to get into an already crowded (J)
There have been several threads here and there about the pros and cons of rerouting the J or the M up 6th or 8th Avenues using the Chrystie Street connection. Those usually generate a lot of posts.
They spent alot of taxpayers money to create the chrystie Street connection and you a while used it to move trains from IND to BMT trackage and so forth. The K went through the that junction and up 6th av, the D came off 6th av and over to the Manhattan Bridge and out to Brighton etc. They should consider running one of the trains from Parsons over the Willie and through the Chrystie street connection and give another alternitive to Mid town Manhattan
Wow, are you wrong. J/M ridership may not be exactly booming, but it's steady. L ridership, OTOH, is booming, and a midday service increase may be in order.
BTW, I'm actually looking out my window as a J train rumbles past my apartment. I live directly on Jamaica Ave.
The subway stop closest to where I live is the L at 14th and 3rd. I use it a lot if it's raining too heavily for me to want to walk to Union Square, or to connect with the 8th Ave line.
The L between Union Square and 3rd Ave is almost always pretty well packed with people.
The L between Union Square and 3rd Ave is almost always pretty well packed with people.
It always amazes me how much usage the L line gets, even outside of Manhattan, right up to about Myrtle. I've ridden the L after midnight many times, and a lot of times it's hard to find a seat between 6th Ave and about Montrose or so, even at that time!
It always bugs me when I see posts that refer to the "snobs" and "CEO's" who work in Manhattan and refuse to take mass transit.
In my experience, I have always seen just the opposite. In 15 years working for 3 different financial services firms, the CEO's, CFO's, Presidents etc. of my firms have always been mass transit users. I've also seen this from the executives at our competitors. Even if they could take a car to work, they'll claim it is a far better use of their time to ride the train for an hour than to sit in traffic for 90 minutes.
Is my experience the same as yours? Or do I just have a knack for picking out transit-happy firms.
How does your boss get to work?
CG
My company has it's HQ in Mississippi. We don't have a large executive presence in the city, but our few local execs all take commuter rail/bus + subways into our NYC office in the Wall street area. Since 9/11 we have allowed some regional execs to work in offices nearer their homes if they so desire. Sales execs and managers have to be in their territories, so they work in the NYC office. They can expense a limo if they work late, but so can anybody else.
I used to work at the Genuardis on whitehorse road in Voorhees NJ. One of the assistant managers lived in Philly, I presume center city, but I'm not sure, and rode PATCO both ways to work most days. She said that she liked it, it gave her time to calm down and stuff. Usually she walked the mile and a half to the store from the lindenwold station, but the 451 or 457 both ran along the road there.
Most of my immediate 'bosses' either drive or take the train. I'm not sure how Larry Reuter gets to work though.
My previous boss, who also owned the company, drove every day from Larchmont to W.55 (between 9 & 10 Aves). His partner drove from Haverstraw.
My wife's boss (and CEO) either takes the subway or bicycles from Brooklyn Heights.
He walks. But then we do work in a small town in England. I, on the other hand, have a 60-mile train journey!
My immediate supervisor uses NJTransit. My department head and the division VP are Metro-North users. I believe the group VP uses NJTransit, but I'm not positive. Dunno about the CEO.
When I've worked in the suburbs, my boss has always driven. When I've worked in Manhattan, my various bosses have taken the subway from the upper west side, the LIRR from Nassau, and car pooled from Rockland County, respectively.
no boss i ever had used any form of mass transit
bragged on the status of his car truck or van he drove !!
considered any transit rider a loser !!
a true fact in my life !
Doesn't Bloomy himself take mass transit, i.e. the 6?
Yes, he does. Most every day.
Most of my bosses use mass transit, but then I work for the TA.
There is, however, an interesting point here. In New York private sector workers, even high level ones, are more likely to take mass transit than public sector workers, even mid- to low-level ones.
Why? Because private employment is concentrated in the Manhattan CBD, while schools, firehouses, police precincts and, yes bus depots and train yards are dispersed on the periphery. Unless your pick put you on your own line, your likely to end up in a car. That's why I've suggested carpooling as a strategy for the public sector.
What is with the subject titles.
Seems like the "Stabbing" subject title has gotten itself on to too many posts, and is even mixed up with Manhattan Bridge Engineering.
We are even somewho stabbing Netscape 7.0, though I cannot figure out how that got into the thread!
Elias
*strokes shin abstractedly* Maybe we should start a Manhattan Bridge Stabbed in the Subway thread...
I think armer mail will get a come back. Like the stuff knights used to wear before the gun was invented. Damn we really got to tame the ghetto. If we can't do it socially (examples of down below), I really hate to say this but hear it is:
We need more video survalence in the subway and on the street like London. Video cameras in the cars themselves it a good idea.
But the idea that using faceprint they can trace your path fot the last 6 hours is scarry.
Ideas to elminate ghetto:
abolish wellfare, eliminate unwed mothers, guns, drugs, incentive for gheeto not to see violence as a solution, limit # of kids a mother can have (currently China has that), reintroduce baby rejection like the romans and greeks had, limit population growth, mandatory birth control until married, prevent incomplete familys.
Before you go judgeing me, remember the ghetto can KILL YOU. Don't think you can run. Every time you run from them they will run after you, since you just made space for them to move to where you used to be. For every ghetto baby prevented, that WILL grow up be a violent teen; we can save/prevent a drug user, gang boss, police shootings, mental break downs, suicides, contract killing, robberies, muggings, jumpings, overdose, unwanted child.
I honestly think that you need to take back what you said about single mothers.
I honestly think you need to check into an anger management class.
My mother busts her ass daily to ensure that I get a proper education, and upbringing. She ensures that I have what I want and need. And no, she isn't stupid, poor, a whore, and we do not live in a ghetto. I find buildmorelines' comment extremely offensive.
buildmorelines is a first class jerk - he was the first person I put in my Killfile. That's where he deserves.
I could consider making him my second.
Killfile?
Whenever I set up my preferences, I notice that, but don't get it. Not that I've seen an example of it, what is it?
Dave started the Killfile to allow posters to eliminate other posters from the Index. (The messages don't go away, you just can't see them)
Simply copy the handle you want to killfile, go the preferences on the top of the SubTalk/BusTalk pages and paste the handle in the killfile box.
Your Killfile preferences will be saved in the cookies the two talks give your browser.
I see... thank you.
If a mother can't raise her child since she is working, the street will.
>>> If a mother can't raise her child since she is working, the street will. <<<
But your final solution, to "eliminate" unwed mothers is not one that most of us would want to be associated with. Subsidized day care and other social support is a much more civilized option.
Tom
Subsidized daycare is okay. But daycare braeks the mother-child bond, and the disiplin bond.
How about getting every persons DNA so that no-show fathers are gone. Then use the no-show fathers to pay for foster fathers that live with the bio mother?
Nothing murdurous, but my idea is a ULTRA huge privacy invasion.
IF thee will be a national DNA database atlast have it accesable to the public.
>>> Then use the no-show fathers to pay for foster fathers that live with the bio mother? <<<
What a scheme. First, how do you insure that the natural father could afford to pay child support, if he is in fact alive, and second, what government agency would assign a foster father top live with the mother? Your suggestion is repugnant to anyone who believes in individual freedom.
Tom
That is an invasion of privacy.
I guess I am not opposed to a better ID system in this country, but that is the absolute extent of it.
Welfare per se is not an evil, but the Republican attitude of cutting everybody off is just as bad as the Democrats attitued of buying everybody off!
Since when could you BUY respect and dignity for a family in distress or poverty. Givving them *money* is supposed to make them feel good? I'll bet not! On the otherhand, I do not have a suitable answer or solution for this problem, and all of my fancy fantacy subway lines have a better chance of fruition then the real relief of the poor.
Elias
>>> I guess I am not opposed to a better ID system in this country, but that is the absolute extent of it <<<
Our real problem is that we have no ID system in this country. When the Social Security law was passed, there was a specific provision that social security numbers were not to be used as identity numbers, but only to keep track of an individual's contribution to the system, since payments are tied to contributions.
As an immigrant nation we have a tradition of taking people at face value and letting them get a fresh start, and a healthy suspicion of giving the government too much information about us. Therefore it is legal in most states to change your name if you wish (as long as you are not doing to defraud anyone) without permission or any legal process. If I wished to, I could travel to New York and introduce myself to everyone as John Kennedy without breaking any laws. Prior to the heightened air travel security I could have booked the tickets under an assumed name also.
As society has become more complicated, various entities from the tax collectors to those extending credit have wanted to know more about who they were dealing with, and therefore have used things such as social security numbers and driver's licenses as de facto non changeable ID documents.
This has resulted in certain unintended consequences. When I got my Social Security card, all I had to do was apply, and it was granted with no questions asked about my immigration status or right to legally work. The only purpose was to keep track of contributions. Now social security cards are not issued unless one can prove a right to work in the country. This has led to counterfeiting of social security cards, and other abuses.
Driver's licenses have similar problems. When I got my first license, it basically proved that I had the ability to drive a car and had demonstrated that ability to the state that issued the license. Now that they have become de facto ID cards, in California, a driver's license will not be issued to anyone who cannot prove he is legally in the state. The unintended consequence is that many who could pass the skill requirements to get a license, do not get one, and no insurance company will issue insurance for an unlicensed driver, so we have a large number of uninsured drivers on the roads who would buy insurance if they could.
Western European nations have long had identity cards, sometimes called internal passports. In Germany they are required of everyone over the age of 16, and must be presented upon request by law enforcement authorities. Perhaps it is time for the United States to go to a similar system.
Tom
You can get killed ANYWHERE Mr. Buildmorelines...haven't you read the papers lately. What the HELL is happenning down in Virginia is NOT occurring in "The Ghetto"!
Geez...
>>> Ideas to elminate ghetto:
abolish wellfare, eliminate unwed mothers, guns, drugs, incentive for gheeto not to see violence as a solution, limit # of kids a mother can have (currently China has that), reintroduce baby rejection like the romans and greeks had, limit population growth, mandatory birth control until married, prevent incomplete familys.
Before you go judgeing me, remember the ghetto can KILL YOU. <<<
I guess this your idea of a preemptive strike. President Bush would be proud of you. :-)
Tom
>>President Bush would be proud of you. :-) <<
*ahem ahem* Make no mistake about it, he's a true Am-urr-u-can. He will make the evil doers pay a price with our nuc-u-lar weapons. It was Saddam Hussein in an act of pure barbarism and defiance of UN resolutions that made him say those things about single mothers and ghettos. We must bomb Iraq to the stone age so we can sleep in peace and not submit to fear and the elimination of single mothers. *cough*
Wow what got into me?
Should we nominate him for a John Birch Society award?
For every ghetto baby prevented, that WILL grow up be a violent teen; we can save/prevent a drug user, gang boss, police shootings, mental break downs, suicides, contract killing, robberies, muggings, jumpings, overdose, unwanted child.
Why stop with people in the ghettos, let's kill all people and have world peace!
We'll have to kill some of the more violent animals too, lions and tigers and bears, oh my! and then we need to get rid of all those evil plant killing herbivores, including pigs.
From this point forth I propose we focus all of our energies on building a huge death star (COUGHripoffCOUGH) to blow up the whole Earth.
>>Why stop with people in the ghettos, let's kill all people and have world peace! <<
I think in the long term that is what's going to happen... you don't see many tyrannosaurs, woolly mammoths, saber toothed cats or neanderthals pillaging and devouring the countryside.
We are even somewho stabbing Netscape 7.0, though I cannot figure out how that got into the thread!
Netscape 7.0 is doing a number on thread titles... it's saving what you last posted rather than the current post you're responding to and using the old one in the new post. From what I've seen you have 7.0 installed on your machine... yes?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From what I've seen you have 7.0 installed on your machine... yes?
Yes, I was just trying it out. But it does look like it has a bug in it.
Maybe I'll go back to MSIE. At least for this kind of site.
Elias
Hmmm.... Netscape7.0 is not doing this on a different site!
HMMmmm....
Does a little box pop up asking who you are?
If you click "OK" it gives you Netscape's cashed subject line.
If you click "Cancel" it give you the current subject line.
Me thinks they are trying to be too fancy.
Elais
I haven't used Netscrape since version 4. Every subsequent upgrade since then has made it much worse. It has more bugs than a picnic, so I finally switched over to IE. And now that AOL owns them...I wouldn't even consider their product.
-Hank
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
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Just a quick warning to those using the Java interface... I'm using IE 6.0, and got a pop-up window asking me if I wanted to install a plug-in to use the chat room. Like an idiot, I clicked "OK" without actually reading about what was being installed on my puter. Turns out some sort of "Precision Time" application, along with something called "GAIN", was being put on my computer. What this GAIN thing does is to cause pop-up ads to appear on your desktop at various times, even when you're not surfing the web. As if I don't get enough stupid pop-up ads otherwise. What's more, it's almost impossible to uninstall this application once it's in. Only after much digging through the depths of my Windows NT 4.0 system files was I finally able to rid my computer of this menace. (And of course, this was all before I read Selkirk's warnings about cjb.net.)
Do yourself a favor and just use mIRC, along with a good firewall. Perhaps American Pig or WMATAGMOAGH would be kind enough to post detailed instructions on how to configure mIRC to access the chat room, for those of you who aren't already familiar with it.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Please stop posting announcments with unconstitutional regulations.
Is there any NYC Subway Videos of various Subway Cars like the R44? Something that shows the trucks and the Motorman Cab and some special features about the train.
-AcelaExpress2005
It's a damned ZOO here ... Some sort of major sports thingy going on here in town, glad we booked a room three weeks ago, got the last one in town. Some kind of soccer thing and a family thing at some college and some other madness going on here.
It's like being in the Delta House. Heh. See youse guys in the morning ... we're here.
HEY!!!! Your there? Well I be....sendme some feed back on the happenings,and thanks for the directions.... see you in the AM...
HEY!!!! Your there? Well I be....sendme some feed back on the happenings,and thanks for the directions.... see you in the AM...I'll be the guy in the black baseball cap with bright red Japaniess letters on it>a Starter cap. So forget about the bells,couldn't find any I liked.
Glad you made it... '65 Ranchero almost loaded, out the door in ten minutes... see you at 0730!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At Atlantic Ave, I had to wait 20 minutes for a southbound Q at around 7PM. It came in not as crowded as I thought. We went one stop to 7th Ave where we waited for 5 minutes, and the conductor just kept saying that we were being held and will be moving shortly. What could be in front of us??? And we certainly weren't early! At Prospect Park it was announced we would run express. We did, only on the local track for some reason. And the T/O didn't follow the 15 MPH rule for passing stations. All of this plus the rain really made for an annoying commute this evening. Anybody know what went wrong?
***I saw an R40 circle Q, and yesterday I saw an R40M diamond Q.
the reconstruction of all stations between church ave and kings highway is causeing many delays on weekends- eg last weekend the local track was closed towards coney island and there is VERY limited train service
The October 13 Sunday Inquirer Magazine, page 14, profiles "Travelin' Men," including Don Nigro, president of Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers, whom the magazine credits with persuading SEPTA to widen a third of the seats on the new Regional Rail cars the agency is ordering; and Creighton Rabs, who spends hours and hours on SEPTA keeping track of 1349 buses, and has attended numerous bus rodeos. His website as listed in the Inquirer is www.angelfire.com/pa5/septapix, which he claims is the largest collection of SEPTA photos on the web.
Steve Anderson is profiled too, as n experts on roads road history and driving.
Hi Folks,
Good news! Since things are changing so quickly on the Canarsie line, I was faced with the possibility of coming up with yet another new edition in a relatively short time frame. Rather than do that, and charge folks for a new book, I've decided to start posting free PDF Updates on my Web site.
These pages are only updates for the current version, and once that version goes out of print, those specific updates will come down as well.
These PDF's require Acrobat reader version 4 or above, and I've setup the files so they may be printed out.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Thank you!
---Brian
What a great idea, Pete! Thank you!
--Mark
You're welcome.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Does anyone else feel as bad as I do over having to miss the get together at Branford today? A previous commitment is keeping me away. The BERA doings will probably be the biggest gathering of SubTalkers in history.
I would have loved to go as I've never been there. It would have also been nice to match some of the names here with the faces. I just couldn't do it this weekend.
I've never been there either.
After posting here for four years it would have been nice to have finally met some of the other SubTalkers.
I would have liked to join the group at Branford, but other things streetcar interfered.
BTW, Karl,
You're up in Gettysburg, which is a not too far drive to Baltimore and
America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum.
Ahhhh, but you don't have any NYC rapid transit cars :->
Seriously, I do plan on visiting you someday.
Ahhhh, but you don't have any NYC rapid transit cars :->
Since we are Baltimore, Baltimore and only Baltimore, anything from another city has no place here, plus almost everybody uses that funny narrow gauge.
Don't put the trip off. Life is finite, and entropy is running.
I was all geared and set to go,when I got that dreded call > from work!!!! someone called out!!!! and be the type of guy I am,they wanted yours truly to fill in!!!!! So as I kick ,scream all the way there,think of the guy in the Starter hat.....guys... 8^(.It's a sad day for the world......
I have to work this weekend to, so don't feel bad. But as my wife tells me all the time, "I play with the real train sets all the time. Why do I need to play with the toys." My wife just dose not understand the power of rainfaning, dose she.
Robert
No.
I don't even know what Branford is!
It's hard to believe that someone who posts & reads this board has never heard of Branford or BERA!
Ok, then what is it? I only have knowledge of the NYC Subways and only that. What's so hard to believe about that? I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows only that.
The museum in Branford has a lot of former NYC subway equipment that it runs at the museum in Conn. I've never been there, so I don't know what it has. The only thing though is that they run with trolly poles, because I believe third rail is prohibitted in Conn.
OK guys, rather than chastising you all in public here about not knowing what Branford is I'll give you an opportunity to LEARN!
Memorize the contents of this website: Shore Line Trolley Museum.
Quiz in a week. Join the museum (associate member dues are only $15; regular dues start at $30) and all will be forgiven :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(BERA #2757)
And I made it too!!!! # 637228
I could have been disappointed BUT my interest and MY FRIENDS were there. This BERA is a private organisation running off donations and I know firsthand what the costs are...it does NOT have the capital input of Seven Flags or Disneyland. NYCTA operational cars are the R-9 and R-17 (still undergoing paint work.) There are also a few NYC Trolleys but most came off the Connecticut lines...Ct. used trolleys as light freight besides public transportation....Ct. did NOT allow third rail hence lack of it...NYCTA cars modified with catenary pick-ups...a very strange mix to me but it works. CI Peter
There seems to be quite a number of fairly new three bay hopper cars on a storage siding here.
All have matching CSX black paint jobs, but some of the car numbers are prefixed by CSXT, and others by NYC.
With the exception of the prefix lettering, the paint jobs match perfectly.
Does that NYC stand for what I think it stands for?
Yes. When Conrail was being split up, equipment destined for CSX was marked "NYC" and NS's stuff was marked "PRR".
I never checked the BLT dates, but I think these are fairly new cars. The paint jobs are certainly recent.
I will see if I can get a BLT date.
It really was the way the ConRail assets were identified. Equipment that was to go to CSX got the NYC marks, the eqipment to go to NS got PRR marks.
A friend of mine got BIG BUCK$$$$$ from NS for the PRR mark, as he had the good fortune to get it when it was released from the PC debacle.
Available at:
http://www.mta.info/mta/communications/releases02/021009-reorg.htm
Good. I'm glad they finally have a Capital Division to take care of all of those transit projects. Though, does anyone know how those things were taken care of prior to this?
I believe each group was responsible for its own construction projects (on the website, they were always listed by operating unit).
If some one knows differently, please so state.
Am I correct, Ron, that you posted this to indicate that the legal entities that operate the various systems will be changed?
As I said, "perhaps," but we shall see. Evidently, they intend an actual management restructuring, which may be a good thing. I say "may" because (1) bigness or smallness, in and of itself, does not mean good management.
I scoured the press release for indications that the corporate structure of the system will change. This is implied ("merging of various umbrella agencies into five distinct companies") but not explicitely stated.
We have history on this. On the one hand, it appears they are structuring like the BRT or BMT. You had separate companies for oversight (Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit), operations (New York Rapid Transit Corporation), surface (Brooklyn & Queens Transit), freight (South Brooklyn Railway), power, etc. But they were all effectively the same company.
Taken the other way, I suspect that the new "companies" will be management divisions, not corporate entities. We have history on this, too. The MTA has been trying, since its formation, to appear as an Ominpotent Transportation Diety, and this has played out through PR manipulations. They earlier tried slapping "M this" and "M that" on stuff (including M Airport--remember that?) but it never changed the corporate realities.
At one point, they announced (why?) that the Long Island Rail Road was now the Long Island Railroad. The NY Times ("the newspaper of record") even started calling it the "LIR" in stories before everyone realized that no name change had ever been made.
And, of course, we now have "New York City Transit" and "Staten Island Railway," neither of which are legal names.
So I suspect that, legally at least, the Long Island Rail Road will be around for a while longer.
I really doubt that the local media -- especially the News, Post and Newsday and the area TV and radio stations -- will ever stop using the LIRR designator, especially when there is a major story (accident, tunnel fire, etc.) on one of the branches. "MTA Railroad derailment leaves two dead" is a pretty imprecise headline or audio blurb in localizing the incident to either the eastern NYC suburbs or the northern NYC suburbs. The name lessens the amount of information the media can immediately give to the public.
The Times may go along with the name change because of its far more formal guidlines as to refrencing governmental agencies, but since the new name is less informative than the current titles, those will probably remain is common use for a long time.
I agree with your post.
The logos on all commuter trains, next to the doors, interestingly, used to be simply the two-tone blue with the destination or division underneath: M Long Island, or M New Haven etc.
>>> Evidently, they intend an actual management restructuring, which may be a good thing. I say "may" because (1) bigness or smallness, in and of itself, does not mean good management. <<<
I see they are using an "operating company" model rather than a "service company" with this restructuring. The biggest change is having to go higher up the management line to coordinate between buses and subways. Will bus schedules be coordinated with subway schedules (particularly in the long headway hours), or will each company set schedules without regard for the other? What will be necessary to get shuttles organized when a subway portion is closed for a GO? Will bus managers with their own budgets and goals be less likely to coordinate with subway managers to provide the best overall service to riders?
Tom
well thought out issues. The greater the number of layers between actual "service" or "production" and the "suits" the lesser likelihood of end user focus.
I may be mistaken, but isn't the photo Here on the MTA website of the A train, a photo of the R110B which isn't even running anymore - or probably never will?
It is a handsome car, though.
Yes it is. I always liked the look of the R110's.
Yes, you are indeed correct! The TA likes to show off their newest trains, which is why I am surprised they don't have a picture of the R142/R142A or R143 on their site. -Nick
Yes, you are indeed correct! The TA likes to show off their newest trains, which is why I am surprised they don't have a picture of the....
Maybe the webmaster is not a railfan, and cannot tell the difference.
Elias
I suppose the R110B is used to represent the subway......its used on stickers and at the 180th street yard...
no they should show the old classics !
.....was a sucess despite the lack of participants. I truly was 'elated into tears' and glad I made the effort to go. It was a 'missed opportunity' for those who did not make it. And the best??
HANDLE TIME ON THE ARNINE!!!!!! Thankyou guys for the invite.
CI Peter
Lack of participants? Given how dead the board's been all day, I figured everyone was up there. (I would have been out railfanning myself if not for an annoying cold.)
Glad to hear you had a good time!
I would have been out railfanning myself if not for an annoying cold.
Ain't that the truth. I have had a horrible sore throat all day. Unfortunately, so many people I know have a cold right now. It must be going around.
Uh oh. Does anyone else who went on Peggy's trip have a cold? I could tell it was coming on as early as Tuesday, but the symptoms didn't really hit until Friday (so at least I managed to get in a bit of railfanning after being released from jury duty early Wednesday, even if the GO I was hoping to track was cancelled and the racks at Howard Beach were cleared out of all the good stuff except lots of Fall 1999 C timetables that I've never seen there before).
Jury Duty! Ha!
---Brian
I enjoyed it. I even got paid $120 for sitting around and reading. I think I would have made it onto a jury had I not insisted on being out no later than 5 on Friday.
>>> I even got paid $120 for sitting around and reading. <<<
$120.00, wow! Out here the cheap county only pays $5.00 per day for jury duty.
Tom
It's $40 per day, statewide. (That's a living wage in parts of the state, but not in Manhattan.) In New York County, jurors serve either three days or on one trial.
The last time I had jury duty, I only got the $40.00, as luckily I only had to go in one day.
The last time I had jury duty, I only got the $40.00, as luckily I only had to go in one day.
I also got $40 the last time I had jury duty, but it was an eight day murder trial. (guilty)
Hey, they're all guilty of SOMETHING if they are in that courtroom.
>>> they're all guilty of SOMETHING if they are in that courtroom. <<<
With a response like that to voir dire I suspect you rarely sit on any criminal juries. :-)
Tom
>>> It's $40 per day, statewide. <<<
As I mentioned, jury duty pays only $5.00 per day here in Southern California, the same as it did 40 years ago. They won't raise it because of budget concerns, and cannot understand why so many working class people try to avoid jury duty. At least they have gone to the one day or one trial from the old 30 days of sitting around.
Tom
"As I mentioned, jury duty pays only $5.00 per day here in Southern California, the same as it did 40 years ago. They won't raise it because of budget concerns, and cannot understand why so many working class people try to avoid jury duty. At least they have gone to the one day or one trial from the old 30 days of sitting around."
I agree with you. Of course, we would want a cross-section of people to serve on juries.
As a good example, is not a military jury composed of a mix of enlisted personnel and commissioned officers (3 of each, I think)?
>>> is not a military jury composed of a mix of enlisted personnel and commissioned officers <<<
A primer on military justice:
The military does not use a jury system. A court martial panel is chosen by the convening authority, which are certain designated (higher level) commanders. No panel members are below the rank of the accused. There is voir dire at which one or more panel members may be excused and replaced. An enlisted accused has the right to determine if the panel contains enlisted men and officers or only officers, or to waive the panel and be tried by single military judge. A General Court Martial has a five member panel and a Military Judge, a Special Court Martial has a three member panel and usually has a Military Judge, and a Summary Court Martial consists of a single officer, usually at least a Captain in the Army and Air Force, and an equivalent rank in the Navy. Only enlisted men can be tried by Summary Court Martial and if they object to a Summary Court Martial the convening authority has to decide whether to convene a Special or General Court Martial or let the matter drop.
The Military Judge and the appointed military defense counsel are not from the convening authority's command, and therefore do not answer to him, but he is the boss of the panel members.
A panel has to be unanimous for a death sentence, have a 3/4 majority for a life sentence, and a 2/3 majority for any other sentence.
Tom
Could you also explain Article 15 of the UCMJ, and when it applies in lieu of a court martial?
>>> Article 15 of the UCMJ <<<
Article 15 is non judicial administrative punishment usually imposed by the immediate commander. Except when embarked on a vessel, the accused does not have to accept this type of punishment and can demand a court martial. It is basically copping a plea on a minor matter. It could be imposed for such minor things as failing to salute an officer, or being late to work. Aboard a ship, a penalty is confinement for not more than three consecutive days on bread and water (they retired the cat quite some time ago).
Generally the maximum penalty would be loss of a pay grade (losing a stripe) and 14 days of extra duty. There is no "conviction," but the Article 15 punishment is noted in the service record. For officers it could mean the end of advancement.
Tom
Thanks for posting all those details, Tom.
The award levels are based on the rank of the CO when onboard a Naval vessel. The CO can also award Diminished Rations (2100 calories a day) Altough in almost 4 years of doing this I have never seen it. As for the Bread & water I have seen p[lenty of those. We try to tell them take it easy on the bread...If they eat to much makes for a rough 1 or 2 days.
Steve Loitsch
I guess you missed 'Military Justice Day' at Branford....600 VDC at 400 Amps from a motor/generator.
LOL I can think of a few redent guests who could use that treatment!!!
Steve L.
LOL I can think of a few recent guests who could use that treatment!!!
Steve L.
..."recent guests who could use that treatment!!!"...
I can think of a member after this weekend, who I would
not hesitate giving the "TREATMENT".
;| ) Sparky
I can think of a member after this weekend, who I would not hesitate giving the "TREATMENT".
Only one?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
..."Only one?!?!"...
At this moment, yes. A feebleminded freight agent.
Just doing catch up, as I was railfanning with Steve B 8th AveEx,
#4 Sea Beach Fred on Monday and Tuesday. Monday for part of the
day Howard Fein joined us and for the whole day Mark Feinberg.
Tuesday, till I spilt off we were joined by Wayne Mr. Slant-R40.
;| ) Sparky
As of topic as this is going to start, it actually will land bang on topic right at the end - watch:
The Canadian military beat you to it. Back in the mid 1990s, around the time of the Somolia inquiry all the home videos of the Army hazings came out, showing all kinds of lunacy being inflicted on the new recruits. Among other things, there were given electric shocks so they could demonstrate their pain endurance. With all this crap coming out from under the carpet and the Somolia inquiry about to deliver the blame right up into the government, the Prime Minister killed the inquiry, saying that there was no cover-up (Somehow, I don't agree with that statement.) and the then minister of National Defence, David Collonette, was moved out of the way to a more harmless ministry: the Ministry of Transportation! He continues to be the Minister of Transportation to this very day. How's that for landing back on topic?
-Robert King
That is how we promote you to "Conductor".
Thanks Tom!
but the Article 15 punishment is noted in the service record.
Unless Article 15 was revised since I got out, the record does not follow the serviceman to his next duty station.
>>> Unless Article 15 was revised since I got out, the record does not follow the serviceman to his next duty station <<<
The UCMJ states:
"The Secretary concerned may, by regulation, prescribe the form of records to be kept under this article..." referring to Article 15, so it is possible that the record keeping differs in the three branches of service.
Tom
So is a "Captian's Mast" an article 15?
You bet Lou
Steve Loitsch
A primer on military justice:
"Military justice is to justice as military music is to music."
Georges Clemenceau
:-)
(He was speaking about the Dreyfus Affair.)
>>> "Military justice is to justice as military music is to music." <<<
Happily, since the adoption of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, courts martial are no longer the kangaroo courts they once were.
Tom
Wow, I never thought I would see UCMJ and Branford in the same message!!!! This coming from a Navy Corrections Officer and Branford member. As for the article #'s I donbt have my copy of the UCMJ with me at home.keep work at work kind of thing....
Steve Loitsch
Wow, I never thought I would see UCMJ and Branford in the same message!!!! This coming from a Navy Corrections Officer and Branford member. As for the article #'s I dont have my copy of the UCMJ with me at home.keep work at work kind of thing....
Steve Loitsch
Gee, only 5 bucks. Talk about cheap!!!
In Baltimore about 10 years ago the jury "pay" was $10.00, and the Mayoral administration at the time actually wanted to lower it to $5.00. The Jury Commisioner actually protested it, saying "if we lower it to just 5 bucks nobody will bother to serve".
Last time I served it was $15.00 per day, still lower than the adjoining counties which each pay $25.00 per day and give free parking to the jurors.
My last employer was NOT a lawful participant of jury service. I served one month as a Grand Juror during the morning session and worked almost every day all night....all the money was MINE!!! It will be nearly six years before I'm called again...TA has to let me go BUT the parking costs now down at 1 Police Plaza are phenomenal...no breaks for those who serve. CI Peter
Camden County, NJ, pays $5 per day and 2 cents/mile travel for jury duty. This was established pre-war (the 1914-1918 war).
It was $5 a day when I served in the early 1980's!
So.....excuses from jury duty not to show up at Branford. Those in regular attendance get the break...those who do not get the G-2. Juries ordinarily do NOT meet on Saturday or Sunday...few of Religious Observance have an excuse. It is my intent to become active in ERA/BERA but my parents generation is dying off and everything is a day to day matter. Yes, I am an active qualified juror not voted out in 'Vois Dier.' CI Peter
Sorry to see SubTalk Day at Branford postings turned to military adjutification....only the 'Big Bug' is the true adjutifier...one touch and you're 'wasted.' Catenary operation is so simple...no third rail shoes or shoe beams to check and adjust. Too far O/T.
CI Peter
Yeah, but shoe beams can administer CURBSIDE justice. :)
We know about this...CI doing Carbodsky leaves Rubbermaid Polyehthelyne floor maintainance cart with tools against adjacent track not heeding warnings 'rapid movement of trains.' R142 soobeam
sucks up cart and turns it into a 'plastic spastic pretzel.'
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. Like the painted lines wouldn't be enough of a clue of "fouling point." Sheesh. :)
Safety Tip of the Day...Yeller and Bloo lines. Bloo lines are areas where personal protective equipment is to be worn unless you want Unca Steve to 'write you up.' Yeller lines are those to warn you when you're squished they turn red. The only exception: yellow lines I painted with water soluable paint....another story for another day. You still would be squished in the zone. CI Peter
Take a stroll on the Funway with Clem and Barney, stand on that yellow rubber line and, if you ask the right questions, the President may answer. Procedure - stand on steady blue line, move to strobing yellow line, you're going to see the superintendent, no flashes please. Say the secret passwoid and a brake shoe will drop down with a 100 dollars. Honk honk. :)
Jury Duty??? Does that you skipped JD six times before?? They won't call me for NYS Supreme Court for at least five years...served one month of Grand Jury. I wanna SCREAM...jury duty and TA means VACATION with pay. I can always hope for Federal.
This was the first time I was called. I've gotten the questionnaire a few times, but always shortly after or shortly before a move.
I think you can volunteer to be called again early, if you like.
>>> I think you can volunteer to be called again early, if you like. <<<
That should not be allowed since it skews the jury pool from a random sample of citizens to one with more people who want to adjudicate cases.
Tom
It's already skewed. Anyone called on a panel who really doesn't want to serve on an actual jury can find an excuse to be excused. If I explicitly request to be on jury duty early, chances are I won't do that. That saves time and money for the court.
In my panel of 60, 21 were excused before voir dire even began. We managed to get a jury of 12 out of the remaining 39, but only because it was running late -- the first round of 18 produced 3 jurors at 3:30 and the judge wanted the trial to start in the morning.
Nah, I only first felt it starting to come last night, and during the course of today, it has been getting progressively worse, in fact I am fading fast as I am typing this.........
Wimps. I set my schedule as a TA workday...woke up this morning and had no freakin idea of where I was. On the road at 0625 hrs. and at the diner at 0735. Really cranking the four cylinders. Anon E Mouse warned me if I did not show up I'd be in school car. A little cold...when you're in TA, timeleness and attendance means the most. Show up DEAD and you get paid for the day. CI peter
I *WARNED* ya we were there to have some FUN, and my own thanks to Sparkey, Lou, Thurston, Dougie et al for a WONDERFUL time! Nancy enjoyed operating both 1689 AND Da Redboid ...
A *lot* of people who showed up opted for the "why be a geese when you can RUN the goose?" and those of you can now appreciate the tales from Unca Selkirk over the time I've been here because now you KNOW what it's like to be a motorperson YOURSELF. Heh. Now you know that Arnines are different, but not insurmountable.
The car's in better shape than I expected, although it did work better without the butt plug. So next time ya ride the subway, you'll now know what it's like for the person in the broom closet because you've been there yourself now.
THANKS, EVERYONE! It was a BLAST! :)
"THAT was *FUN*....Let's do it again!!!"
Thanks to Lou, Sparky, Thurston, Doug and the rest...to many names to list. If you were there I'm glad you came. If you weren't there, chances are we will do this again, sometime next year, so you've gotten your advance notice already!
Nothing on the railroad beats handle time!
And next time we'll haul out 1227, so we'll have a 'Patio' and back-porch for use during our party! :)
Wasn't 1227 out? I heard someone mention it on the radio! :)
Yes 1227 was mentioned on the radio, but she never moved from Barn 5. That was Doug having one of "his moments", a flash back to a certin time when Empire Blvd was called Empire Blvd if you catch my B.U.
["a flash back to a certin time when Empire Blvd was called Empire Blvd if you catch my B.U."]
Did you mean to say Malbone?
Ya, it's some kinda bone alright...LOL!
EVERY day is Malbone day for Unca BMTman. Just ask the geese! :)
Yeah, Doug was doing his best impression of Edward Luciano while piloting 1689 down the mainline. I thought he was going to take the first curve with the bull and pinion gears still singing out an E above middle C.:)
Moo, HOWDY, guy! See ya got home without getting pulled over by da railcops. Heh. Yeah, that was truly priceless. Hey ... THANKS for plotting that caper we did with Lou and Thurston and Sparky and Dougie. Everybody got their yayas ... you're even more fun in person than you are here. :)
So did we manage to confuse you with power being applied and coasting while you were trying to calibrate your Arnine Pentatonic scale? :)
Thanks for the compliment, although I can't take all the credit. That goes to Brighton Exp. Bob. Yeah, I made it home fine. I'm still trying to figure out what I was hearing as 1689 accelerated outbound down the straightaway. I never heard a prewar train jump octaves like that while accelerating. Harmonics, perhaps? There was a train of BMT standards which went, "awwwrrrrrr-moooooooooooore" right between c and C# below middle C as it gathered speed.
Nothing beats an R-9 serenade. Music to my ears.
Guess you need to do some research, better spend hours listening to Heypaul's tape, then give us a full report < G >
Even the trains on Heypaul's tape didn't do what I heard. Maybe my ears were playing tricks on me.:)
You were hearing steel resonances in the car without benefit of the fundamentals being reflected up by tunnel walls. 1689's propulsky was *PERFECT* and the gearing nice and smooth. I was particularly impressed by the smoothness of the grid switching and not a bar missing. Impressive beyond belief to me ... when she gets her Lee Myles Brake job, that'll be one mint condition car ...
I'm trying to organize myself to be able to lend a hand. I have no experience with cast metal brake shoes...no specs for inspection...but from what I saw on the R-9 and the R-17, cleaning/lubrication/adjustment of automatic and manual slack adjusters is warranted. Compared with worn out shoes, most looked OK at a distance, can be adjusted properly (replacement shoes are probably available) and I can teach undercar basics. The R-9 can't be much different from R-17/R-33 except for what we now consider 'ass backwards' brake cylinder pressure readings. They tell me that 207th has a library full of stuff...I'll have to ask about because it may only be acessable for the AM shift. CI Peter
We can certainly use your help. See what you can dig up in the library.
-Stef
If there's ever an opportunity to LEGALLY make copies of schematics and manuals for the Arnine, I'd love to see some of it if it wouldn't cause anyone any trouble. I'm CERTAIN that Branford already has the needed manuals for 1689 but my OWN curiosity is still there. :)
The BRAKE RIGGING (which I was familiar with) looked QUITE good to me own non-CI eyeballs, we'd have to look them over and check them before doing a put-in to make sure all grabbed and released and that we had our angle cocks set properly before rolling them ... the problems I noted were all in the ME-23 boxes ... the detents for EB, LAP and application weren't there anymore and it seemed as though the whole assembly was sluggish - probably just needs monkey oil and some refurb of the seals, but was in fairly good shape.
My bet though is that the brake stands need a teardown and probably the electric brakes need some oiling and that's probably it. Mind ya, the brakes WERE solid, just a little off from what myself and others recall them being. Folks who didn't notice the cars probably wouldn't have even noticed. I DID note though that she ran a lot better in triple valve mode with the butt plug out, but she ran just FINE (and SAFELY) even as she is ... the brakes DID work reliably which is something many on the road didn't do and still were cleared for revenue service (ask any oldtimer about how fussy the brakes could be, 1689's STILL in much better shape) ...
The only thing underfloor that is vaguely similar between the
R-9 and redbirds is some of the wire numbers. You still have
a 24 circuit, a 22 circuit, etc. However, the switchgroup,
pneumatic operating units, brake rigging, motors and door engines
are all completely different. There aren't too many people left
at transit who know this stuff. Mike H. down at Coney Island (semi-
retired) is your best resource. I'd be happy to give some technical
instruction on the RT stuff at Branford.
It was great to hear all those marvelous sounds again: throbbing compressor, hissing air, the trademark "tch-sssss" magnet valve sound, and of course the moaning, groaning bull and pinion gears.
You're right - 1689 has been well cared for.
I also listened carefully to the air sounds when the door locks released just before the doors opened (and you were wondering why I kept opening and closing the doors:)) to see if the "kssssss" matched that of the R-10s. It was very close.
The R-10's were remarkably close in design, but slightly different. The "puff" you heard was the latches. Yeah, I damned near had tears of joy in my eye when I saw her again. I *really* loved those cars. So simple, so reliable and yet so almost "human" in their "moods" ... The LoV's were pretty close as far as "personalities" go as well but nothing beats an Arnine for that feel of actually RUNNING a train. I s'pose it was no great shakes for the geese, but OPERATING them was always a treat, far and away my favorite cab time.
And yes, my EXTREME gratitude to the folks at Branford for keeping her young. :)
You seemed rather poker-faced when you first saw 1689.:) And you said you don't get sentimental over machines.:) Once you were on board, it was as if you never left the TA. You sure had the wake-up routine down pat.
Believe me, I was just as happy to see the old gal myself. It's my favorite car in the entire collection.
I think there may have been a slight difference in door latch pitch sound on the R-10s than on the R-1/9s. I've got an R-10 sound bit of the doors opening on my computer, and I can always compare that to the sounds on Heypaul's tape.
Oh, I was *quite* happy to see her, and yeah schoolcar kicked right in as I was trying to remember every detail in order to bring her up safely without taking out the substation or myself. :)
Arnines date back before the days of many many snapswitches and interlocks to make sure you don't roll a train with the compressors off (surprise! No air!) or making sure the caps were slapped so when the drum switch was hit, we didn't have geese falling out of doors suddenly opening up en route, unsticking doors so they'd open and more importantly CLOSE when it was our turn for the mainline. I was going crazy trying to remember where the trap door for the cab side marker light was and it took me a while to find it again. Arnines make you SING for your handle time and I was just concerned that I hadn't missed something. When you get older, the mind tends to go. Good thing it wasn't a vital organ. Heh.
And yes, the R10 door rigging was indeed different from the R9's ... not all THAT much different, but different enough that you could hear it. ANOTHER clue that a motorman should have picked up on 1575 that was missed so I hear. :)
What about the door control breaker? Did it control only the trigger boxes on that car end, or did it trainline?
I'd suspect that it was trainline since the rule was OFF except at the operating position. To be sure though, I'd need to see schematic. Unca Jeff *has* schematic, all the MORE reason for me to maintain that membership. :)
Did other cars have door control breakers in the cab, or was it just an R-1/9 thing? Since you need a door key with cab door controls, I would guess that only the R-1/9s had breakers. On second thought, the R-10s, R-11s, R-12s, and R-14s must have had breakers, too, since they also had trigger boxes. I wonder if the Triplexes had some sort of door control breaker.
I'm pretty sure I remember ALL R cars having them, today they're known as DC0, DC1 etc and are used to cut out doors. Principle was the same though, you didn't want kibbitzers opening the doors without a conductor on board, and yet that's happened too. But yeah, shut YOUR arse down toute suite when Unca Selkirk dropped yer breaker on ya. :)
Well, at least I'll know what happened next time.
"All right, who's the wise guy?!?"
Buzz-buzz, let's go! :)
Better yet, I'm going to say, "And no fair turning off the breaker or drum switch!"
And *I* am going to be impressed BECAUSE? Yo, buddy ... you GOT your screwing around time, we gotta schedule to maintain. :)
You'll be pleased to know the drum switch was JAMMED ... just like I remembered it being USELESS ... but ah, when you took the promotional and moved up FRONT, you learned quickly that there was more than one way to screw a conductor, and the grabirons had NOTHING to do with it. Heh.
Well, can't explain why she sounded the way she did to you - as someone who lived on those things, every single sound was JUST right, 1689's propulsky was perfect ... the only thing missing at Branford was the TUNNEL WALLS, and that's probably what threw ya. But out on the Brighton, that's exactly how they sounded. I was MOST impressed with how smoothly she took off and kept on mooing. :)
I don't feel so bad about missing the get together now that I know that 1227 did not come out to play.
Well, then Karl, I guess we'll see YOU at Branford NEXT YEAR! ;)
Will you promise to bring 1227 out then?
As long as it ain't raining cats and dogs, it should be a given!
Well see what happens, next time.
What's that you say Dougie, your putting in 10K of Lincolns
towards the tab.
Why thank you.
;| ) Sparky
What better way to celebrate 100 years of 1227 than to make it careen through an S curve. And this IND man can raise a round of applause by removing the soda can from the elevator control and dumping her good and proper at the section break. Sounds like a PLAN! :)
Have you ever seen the controller and brake stand on #1227 ? Makes the arnine brake and control stand look high tech !
Also when operating #1227, there's a wooden platform and gates in front of you. Makes you wonder how motormen of years past did their jobs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, yes, I've seen it. The Otis Elevator control on the right side, meatwhistle on the left. Handles were off it, but I know the drill. It'll confuse the KWAP out of me and Unca Dougie will FINALLY have his revenge for the Arnine caper when *I* dump the train. And it was pretty easy actually looking out through the front porch - the front door was locked and no riders up there when they were in service. I'm sure for safety's sake there will be limitations on anyone riding up front at Branford when we do it for the same good reasons - if the train dumps, then anyone up front is likely to end up UNDER the car.
Now I can understand CI Peter wanting to ride up there, and that'd be OK by me - he lives UNDERCAR ANYWAY. Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
We don't have any problem with folks on the front porch ...
you ask them nicely to move, if they don't one or two tap of the whistle will do the trick (it's very loud !).
Heh. OH I LOVE IT! :)
One of the things that kinda screws me is that I'm set in 30+ years of ancient TA training ... I'm actually afraid of 1227, too set in left hand throttle, right hand brake. That's the reason why we both gently nudged Dougie, knowing that "there for the grace of God go we" ... you can *COUNT* on me dumping 1227 just on the confusion basis alone. Heh. HeyPaul's cab made me NERTZ!
For the longest time I couldn't master 1227. It wasn't the controller, I was always dumping it with the brake handle (into emergancy). This year I've mastered her (thank goodness) during the trolley pagent, even without the coke can (can't stand Pepsi).
I don't need the coke since I've got a big thumb I put in the 'saftey zone'.
Yeah, she takes some getting used to (braking dept.) but after awhile you get to appreciate the way she gliiiides down the track. Smooth as silk...
Scroo it ... I'll ride on the back porch with YOU guys running it. I'll be a geese for this one. I was sufficiently ashamed of not doing a smooth stop each and every time - the very thought of SUCH foreign configurations makes me twitchy. Heh.
Cluck! Cluck! :)
Yeah, I was in the cab checking it out in the dark while I was up there. Every bone in my BODY said, "nah-ah ... not with pax" ... if I spend a week or two with her, I can probably get with it, but sure does explain what happened to a certain critter on 1689 this past weekend. It'll be MY turn to cringe way too soon. :)
Now you know why this Surface Car Guy declined the handles on 1689.
It isn't my forte, so why make a schmo of myself. Now when we
rotate to 5466 as a single or 41/1227 paired, I'll take my turn
on either, 41 on the pair.
;| ) Sparky
Yeah, as I was just confessing to Brother Elias, I'm extremely demanding of myself when operating - I did a couple of hard stops, though a few were OK. I honestly couldn't hear the motors as well as I would have liked (couldn't even catch the section gap since I didn't have an indication lamp as a hit and couldn't hear the 'click' but KNEW to have the controller off owing to the wayside warning) ... I was rather disappointed in myself and had hoped to redeem myself on a later run ... but I also knew I was tired from a poor night's sleep and didn't want to go for it again since fatigue would have made me more of a risk than if I'd had a few beers and grabbed handle.
Now all you guys are talking gate cars (and it's 1227's 100th birthday coming up, what BETTER way to celebrate) for next year and I'm sitting here saying to myself "oh, if only I could get me some more handle time and get back up to speed" ... I tell ya, I ran her like the TA, but alas, the TA way ain't appropriate to your railroad there. I still regret making Unca Lou a bit twitchy charging the curve there, but that's the way I was trained to operate oh so many years ago. I went into robot mode for a while. :)
And today I just got a thorough explanation of 'lapping' and 'self lapping' brake packages from a former supervisor. It was hard in the beginning to run the Arnine because I'm used to reading brake cylinder pressure...but when I got the 'feel' I got the 'GO.' Brake pipe was normal but BCP was opposite of what I work with...full release is about zero, snow brake 5-10 psi, #5 wire about 15 psi, full braking about 45 psi and full service 80 psi. Steel brake shoes respond differently than the composite we install...they slip, slide and then lock up. CIs say 'well you know how trains move' but NONE of them have even bumped cars in coupling. 'This is your left hand, this is your right hand, this is the throttle and this is the brake.'
AND 'this is your BUTTPLUG.' I'm probably the happiest CI in the system because I knew I could move a train and DID. Thanks guys. CI Peter
Heh. Now you know why I kept pushing you to "come on up!" You wanted propulski, we got you propulski. You can thank Steve 8th Ave, Lou and Sparky for the treats.
Now ... that "gauge" is accurate as all getout on Arnines, but they're PURELY ornamental. By the time you see needles move, it's TOO LATE. Heh. Arnines are like many classic old subway cars, blind man's bluff ... you had to close your eyes, break out your cane and feel your way when operating. No "high tech" at all. Like cars without catalytic converters, like heat from a good wood stove. Simple, basic, reliable. OK, so some slidy things get stuck here and there. Rule of RCI for any sluggish carbodsky was "kick it - Thankyouverrymuch" ... moo.
To the tune of Pink Floyd's "Brick in the wall" ...
We don't need no indication ...
We don't need no radio ...
Push the butt plug, pull the handle ...
Hey Conductor! Slap those caps again ...
Car inspector, leave those doors alone ...
All in all it's just another train in the hole ...
All in all it's just another train in the hole.
Sparky: I won't mind putting in for a ride on 1227 provided she comes out with No 41. We IRT guys have to keep up our end too.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
I've heard that they'll stay married at least thru Member's Day in the Spring, then maybe a amicable seperation < G >
Shame on YOU for such nasty innuendoes. Perish that thought.
;| ) Sparky
I agree with you wholeheartedly, they are the "Odd Couple" that
performs amicably together. It's a definite request for the
next gathering of the SubTalkers at Branford in 2003.
;| ) Sparky
Hey, Sparky! We're not the MTA!!! We don't have to charge an arm, leg or first born to run a subway car! :)
As today's Brooklyn yoot might say: I'll throw ya some bling to make it worth your while. ;)
Double D,
I know we are not the MTA, so I did ask the MTA rate which would
be 100K of Lincolns. Do the math.
;| ) Sparky
Yes, just look at that rain.
-Larry
See, the rain didn't keep me away...:)
The wet rails made the ride a lot more interesting. Trains are an all weather hobby. Good thing we didn't have LEAVES on the rails. That would have resulted in a few white knuckle rides. :)
What is that, the Branford Rain Dance ? With a smile no less !
>>> I don't feel so bad about missing the get together now that I know that 1227 did not come out to play <<<
C'mon, Karl. We know you have been away from New York for awhile, but don't try to tell us that 1227 was the newest equipment when you left. :-)
Tom
I may be old, but I'm not that old. I just liked the gate cars.
Would you believe that the R-17's were the newest models when I left?
1227 will be a 100 yrs old next year.
6688 I think is still the youngest thing at Branford (1955)...
So I'm stuck with O/T trying to replace a zone switch on a Redbird...wiring was not started by me. Finished the job...mate car had 'fault indications'...traced what schematics I had out to no avail. Night Superintendent notified by me that part was needed from East 180th because I had no run list or complete schematics. 'I started with R-17s' said the Sup. Maybe one day I can finish BERAs R-17...would like them to get a R33 married pair. CI Peter
"... would like (BERA) get a R33 married pair ...]
That would be a tough sell to the management, but maybe a single if we paint her in Blue & White, or a "K" from PATH. Would be nice to get some kind of single that could be hitched to 6688 now and then.
Part of the group did get a "walk through" of 1227 & G on our way back from putting 6688 away.
I believe Unca BMTman has a picture of bingbong and I in the act of blessing the cab of 1227. Maybe he'll post it for chuckles. :)
>>> I believe Unca BMTman has a picture of bingbong and I in the act of blessing the cab of 1227 <<<
Sorry, Kevin, as much a railfan as I am, I'll stick with my Tommy Lee/Pamela Anderson tape.
Tom
Heh. It wasn't THAT kinda blessing. After all, Branford's a family place. It's not there for MAKING a family. :)
Nope, no blessing was allowed < G >
At one point I had to say to Harry Beck, "Harry I asked you to close the window in G what's taking you so long"
Well, we BLESSED 1227 ANYHOO. Moo. :)
Dougie's got the documentation on "disk" ... only question is, does he have the stones to PUBLISH the picture? Hmmm. Car G remained unmolested and not in need of the mop. Apologies for the stains on 6688, but you know it wasn't US. Heh. Damned FOAMERS. (and we POSTED those signs too) Good thing the pump car was nearby. And you and the rest of your little conspiracy tried to tell the easily hosed subtalkers that the ground was wet from RAIN. Yeah, right. I know the scam, you guys didn't want to tell the Parkies that you'd washed thousands of cubic liters of foam into the watershed. So THERE!
REALLY GLAD that Unca Harry from Other Side of the Tracks came up to play, we were PROUD to chip in to pay for HIS handle time. Did you catch his lit-up face when he stepped out of the cab after a nice run? ALSO priceless. Nancy and I have always liked Harry. He's one of US. :)
As I've said before, it's a labor of love for us.
And a lot of that is the joy we see in others, e.g. Lou was doing that all day. I was happy he finaly got some handle time of his own, i.e. the very last trip back to the barn.
Yeah, that's what I truly admire about you guys and gals ... you make it like CHRISTMAS at Branford, no ... more like Chanukkah (which happens more than ONE day) ... and yeah, was nice to see Unca Lou get some time too. Poor boy was mighty whipped after most of us running around the train like 3 year olds. :)
I feel that I chewed, having prior experience applied to 1689 didn't make for the smoothest of stops here and there (but at least I didn't BIE heh) but then again, anyone who remembers riding Arnines KNOWS that in order to keep schedule with the slow takeoff, you charged stations and made short stops.
My own defense out of the way, between all the people operating, I feel (and genuinely no bias here, I'm tough on those I know) I think it's a tossup between Nancy (bingbong) and our own Bill Newkirk as to running the Arnine on Sunday ...
How'd y'all like the ride (and the handle time)? Wasn't that GREAT? :)
Bill gets the prize for the loudest boast & biggest smile when he came out of the cab !
Second prize goes to Anoun-e-mouse who just sat there calmly riding with us until I said to Lou, "Gee Chris hasn't operated yet".
I knew a guy who made a cake for three dozen wasn't there just to operate just 629.
Isn't life great to make friends like these ?
... wasn't there just to operate just 629.
Sez who?!?! Hey, I was there for the fun of it all... handle time was an added bonus but not a requirement in my book... but I certainly did enjoy it. And glad you all enjoyed the cake... the gang at the office made short work of the leftovers.
Yes, had a great time, and I'll be back at it on the 26th for Pumpkin Patch, wife permitting... after a month on the road visiting our grandchildren and some other family and friends she's due back in New Jersey tomorrow and she does have the veto privilege :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. That cake WAS yummy! And RICH. You no screw around, boss ...
Hey, I learned from the best... myself :-)
(How's that for ego? Seriously, my great-aunt Hilda, of blessed memory, taught me how to bake forty years ago. I only wish I had paid enough attention to the decorating lessons as well. The recipies for both cake flavors and the buttercream icing are the ones she used; the raspberry "glue" is my own concoction.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An absolute MARVEL ... I woulda done another piece, but it was time to put our toys away. :)
Pumpkin Patch has been cancelled, regular operating day(s) 26/27.
Thanks... still planning on being there, wife permitting :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amen! There wasn't ANYONE I didn't like instantly there. And the REGULARS there are especially nice. Enjoyed breakfast lunch and dinner too. :)
Kevin,
Being away from the activities most of the day, well
someone had to run the show. Not complaining about that.
I'm contented with the superlatives that I'm reading.
I have one question, why was it that "Luciano" dumped
an IND car, when it was signed up for the "GG"???
;| ) Sparky
Geez, Unca Sparky ... THAT was an EASY one to answer. Mayor HYLAN got EVEN with Unca Dougie for the SACRILIGE of some damned BMT guy getting on HIS train. You know how it is, the patron saints watch out for us IND guys. Heh.
But not to worry, it was just Hylan's revenge. :)
John, what would you expect from a BMT guy operating IND equipment? I had an initial allergic reaction to grabbing the deadman... LOL!
BOY you're smooth. :)
I wouldn't expect less from a PR professional.
And he's from Brooklyne.
;| ) Sparky
(grin)
Thanks for the compliment, but I'd have to say the "prize" goes to Harry Beckfor his smooth run and the biggest smile.
I cannot BEGIN to describe to you how envious all my friends back home are. Handle time was AWESOME.
I give the prize to Lou. I don't know ride quality enough to know if his was the best, but at least we all knew in ADVANCE we wouldn't have to throw our bodies over the cake to protect it.
And it was a sort of teary moment, that last run.
Yeah, the ultimate foamy experience is actully RUNNING a train, not just riding one or playing one in a simulator. And Lou has got to be the most easy-going PATIENT sumbitch I've ever met. If the TA had motor instructors like LOU working the system instead of these "write my ass up" TSS types, the subways wouldnt be anywhere near as screwed up as they are.
I sat there in amazement as Lou managed to get EVERYBODY to run the Arnine damned well, and Arnines are no cake walk. And glad the cake didn't walk either. Heh.
Lou deserves a lot of credit for his seemingly limitless patience. I had two turns of handle time on 1689 and enjoyed it very much. The old gal looks terrific. One thing I noticed was it didn't jerk all that much when nudging the controller from coast to switching. It would have been nice to pilot it on an outbound run, as you can get a really good head of steam down the straightaway, but coming back had its advantages. I didn't have to brake until we reached the siding switch. Didn't do so well the first time; almost dumped. The second time was much better pulling up to the high level platform. Naturally, I got a big kick out of working the doors, both on 1689 and 6688.
All in all, it was a most enjoyable day and a pleasure to meet everyone. Hopefully next year's Subtalk gathering will coincide with my trip again. We have a home game on October 25th, and I would assume Homecoming will be held then.
Thanks to Sparky for the round trip ride to and from the city and Lou for his expert instruction.
It was an absolute BLAST! Yeah, the "jerks" you remember from the Arnines was slack action from a car behind with dead motors, when all the cars had motors that were in good order, they'd take off like an R143. Of course, perfectly matched sets of ten cars rarely happened in the real world. One car is a piece of cake. :)
And now you know from the above experience WHY that famous "R-10" tape (skreeee-BANG!) happened ... dead motors on a car is one thing, cylinders that won't release on time IN ADDITION and BANG, ZOOM! To the moon! Unca Ed (BigEdIRTmanL) was here last night and we were comparing notes - R10's SUCK, and I can say it with AUTHORITY now. Heh.
Maybe they sucked, but the R-10s are still near and dear to me. I'd give anything to see an A train of Thunderbirds pull into 59th St. n/b for a rip-roaring, Katy-bar-the-doors CPW express dash. Or for that matter a prewar D train with no headlights on that same stretch.
I don't know if you were on board during my second turn at the handles, but I did much better stopping the car than on my first turn. Brought it up to the Avenue L platform and stopped it on a dime. Someone took a picture from the platform of me bringing the car in. I'd like to see that photo....
I *think* I was in there for that second run of yours. And yes, always nice to see someone hit the board before pulling their handle out. There were a couple of folks who ended up with a door off the platform which is the reason why so many stops there required crew key only rather than opening up. Wish I could have just opened up anyway, nothing makes my day like seeing if geese can fly. :)
Alas, "safety first" ... but ya done good.
As to the R-10's, many folks loved them. It was those of us with keys and handles that DESPISED them. Talked to several old timers since Branford and the ONE thing we all agreed on was that the R-10's were DOGS. Pretty and familiar for the geese perhaps, but we HATED them. We'd rather take out 27/30's than 10's.
IIRC the single door leaf was keyed open whether the car platformed properly or not, probably because it was a charter and not open to the public.
Well those of us with access to a key opened it, if Kevin didn't get to the outside & "assume the position", on one foot first < G >
Heh. Had keys myself of course, but figured it'd be safer to protect the train from the other end. You can see if it platformed for sure out there, and my rule of thumb up my posterior was if the doors platformed, opened up. Musta made Lou nuts with the buzz-buzz when I closed down. But he buzzed me back, so it was legal. :)
Actually, they were keeping the visitors away from the Arnine. When we stepped off the car, we left the crew door open, but if it platformed, I went for them all. Since we were being squeezed in between other runs, I wanted to get the geese on and off as quickly as possible. Besides, it was fun. The lock trigger was a bit gamey here and there too and the exercise finally loosened it up. :)
Actually I thought 1689's triggers felt good and loose on both sides. The cap on the opposite side of the cab was a bit sticky. As I pointed out to you, 1689's triggers felt different to the touch compared to the ones on 100 and 484. The ones on 100 and 484 have pointed tips while the ones on 1689 flatten out and have a wider surface where your fingers come in contact.
Let's just say that working the doors may not be something I'd want to do for a living (with all due respect), but it's a real kick to do it now and then, especially with two cars. That's why I'm still itching to get up to Seashore someday. They would have to surgically remove me from the step plates on 800 and 1440.:)
Heh. Yeah, if you don't do it every day I can see where it could be a thrill. Do 45 or so operations in each direction in muck for two trips a day and it gets tired fast. But I was 19 at the time and I tell ya, all that moving and stepping gave me THUNDERTHIGHS. I could crush a truck with the moosles I developed as a conductor on those things. :)
And yeah, the sliders on 1689 could use some oil. Hopefully next year, I can spend an extra day with guidance and treat her right with some genuwine TA monkey oil and a few tweaks.
Yeah, I can see how being a conductor on the prewar cars was good exercise. At least 1689's step plates are still solidly attached.:)
CI Peter is just chomping at the bit to help keep 6688 running smooth. I'll bet he'd learn all about 1689, too.
Hopefully, CI Peter does find the time to join the shop forces
at Branford. With 2003 projected schedule of events, we will
require a CI for RT equipment.
;-) Sparky
Best way to learn your craft is to study how it was done before - certainly causes things that look silly now to be more logical. 1689 doesn't really need much in the way of work, and 6688 is in very good shape. Nice to know though that there's someone among us who can help KEEP them that way. :)
>>I think it's a tossup between Nancy (bingbong) and our own Bill Newkirk as to running the Arnine on Sunday<<
Thanks for the compliment, but I'll break the tossup and award the title to Nancy. When returning back from Short Beach and approaching the switch that would take us to Ave. l, Lou from Brooklyn instructed me to come to a full stop before the switch. I didn't, much like not coming to a full stop at a stop sign.
So there, I flunked the road test. And now with tears in my eyes and on my knees, I'm begging and pleading to Lou from Brooklyn......pleeze, don't take away my electric brake plug !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hahahaha ... nah, a motor instructor in the old days would have slapped you with the butt plug, have you change ends and make you do it again. That's what impressed me *most* about Uncle Lou ... he was like the motor instructors I had back in school car. More interested in making sure that you knew what you were doing than writing you up.
But you were doing it QUITE well. So did a few others. I'd leave the switch as an allowable, you didn't HIT it. I'd take off half a point for leaving one of the doors hanging off the platform and not taking a point to bring it in, but hey, geese *CAN* fly ya know. :)
Kevin, Bill does make a good point of failure to follow the
instructions from the motor instructor. Also remember rules
vary from museum to museum.
Having had some piloted runs at BSM recently, I would fail a
qualificational test also. At that museum, you must stop at
all facing point switches and read the route. Missed several
on my runs. >G< We aren't Transit Professionals and I'll admit
guilt.
;| ) Sparky
I do understand ... but I'm telling ya, if you guys put up a damned zebra on the platform and demand that I salute the muhfuh, I'm breaking out the shoe paddle and clearing the yard. :)
Since we are the Baltimore Streetcar Museum we use the United Railways/Baltimore Transit practices:
Rule 175. OPERATING OVER SPECIAL WORK ----------
Motorman and Operators are instructed to round curves
and go over all special work at a slow rate of speed. The car
must be brought to a FULL STOP before passing over facing switch
points. Motormen and operators will check to make sure no
obstruction will prevent the proper operation of the switch
point.
When you are taught from the beginning about this it becomes second nature.
Don't feel too bad.
Dan,
What was the United Railways/Baltimore Transit practices regarding
trailing point switches? Were they rigid or spring?
That's where failures by misreading occur most. IMHO.
..."When you are taught from the beginning about this it becomes second nature"...
I concur wholeheartedly. Anything you are taught from the beginning
should become second nature.
;| ) Sparky
Trailing Girder rail switches were standardly sprung, that is a spring assembly is included in the switch box. In one position the point is free to move when forced by a flange and the spring keeps the point tight in the position it is forced to. In each of the other two positions the point can be sprung either way, straight or divirging.
BSM has two sprung girder switches, one sprung straight at North Avenue Loop and one sprung straight at 28th Street Loop. The one at 28th started out sprung for the diverging and was changed when the loop was reversed.
Stiff Connected switches (T-Rail) are either rigid or sprung. They are always delinated by Bulletin. Obviously, a rigid has to be thrown for either position and must be stopped for, especially if trailing . A spring switch can be trailed, and by using the standard throw can be sprung for either straight or divirging.
Thanks for the explanatory of girder rail vs T rail. At BSM most
of your switches are girder rail street car type vs the T rail
on most of Branfords or Seashores line. Just the association
of what the operator in particular has run on.
As for rule 175 of Baltimore's United Railways, as time permits
next week, I'll have to locate two rule books from New York City
in my personal archives and compare SOP.
;| ) Sparky
Only convinces me that I've got to lay my hands on the official rulebook for Branford, and to express my gratitude to all at Branford for letting the guest motorman "wing it" ... but rules is rules, and whatever they are, I'll DO them ... but *I* get to choose which finger I wave at the conductor board. THAT I insist on as long as nobody's watching me. :)
But yeah, training on ONE railroad sometimes makes things difficult when you move to ANOTHER railroad.
Doug: Sub-Talk Day at Branford was an unqualified success. There were quite a lot of us there and I dare say that everyone had a great time.
For those of you who did not go we chartered R-9 1689 for the day and almost everyone had the chance to operate the car under the guidance of a motorman instructor. (Lou from Brooklyn). The R-17 was out for a while but the ongoing rain necessitated putting her in the barn early since she only has a primer coat on the roof. TARS 629, Montreal 2001 and Johnstown Traction 357 were providing regular service for the civilians. Sub-talkers came from far and wide. Steve from the Rocky Mountains, Harry Beck from Boston, Dave from Philadelphia and Selkirk TMO from somewhere north of Albany. Many more were there and All the Branford crew including Doug,Thurston, CK, Lou and the others did a great job with Sparky coodinating the whole affair as Dispatcher.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, a big 'Thank You' to Lou and Sparky (aka John S.) for coordinating this whole affair with Steve 8Ave Exp. Their hard efforts paid off in a memorable day that hopefully can be re-created in the years ahead.
It was a pleasure meeting all the new additions to the "BERA Family" like Kev "SelkirkTMO and his other half, BingBong, Harry Beck, CI Peter, Bob Anderson, Notchit (Larry) and the new SubTalker, also named Larry (his handle escapes me at the moment). Current BERA members and fellow SubTalkers included RIPTA42HopeTunnel (Mike P.), Mr. T, Larry "RedbirdR33" and Andee (Subwaysurf) were also in attendance and made everyone feel at home. (Hope I didn'leave anyone out.)
The only MIA's were Webmaster Dave P. and the other Dave who happens to be a Foster (aka Pelham Bay Dave). Hope to see them at the next gathering!
Thanks again guys for an A-1 production!
Yikes! I knew I forgot some folks: Bill Newkirk (who helped re-store the giftshop with 2003 subway calendars) and Chris (aka Anon E Mouse) who did a super job of baking a 'SubTalker's Gathering' cake.
Also, kudos to Mr. Bill Young for doing a work-stop on his tie-replacement program early enough in the day so that our festivities weren't needlessly delayed beyond a reseasonable time-frame.
Doug
Yes you forgot some folks including another Subtalk/Branford member.
Peter the Pole - forgotten member.
Now how could we forget someone like you who is outstanding in his field !
Seriously, you were a valuable member of the "crew" that day.
Ya, our first trip was real SLOOOW since 1689, 6688 and W3 were all moving at the same time... Ouch
I believe the "other" Larry is actually Mike F a newcomer to the website....sorry if I got you guys wrong.
At the end of the day, Lou should have the sign in sheet, which
I was hoping he would post the listing of all in attendance.
But the crew member who all have neglected, the one who's not a
Sub~Talker, doesn't even own a computer, how did you'se forget
Joe Roth? Also I saw no mention of the in house "constable",
now retired Sgt. Jeff.
BTW, thanks to all for a funtastic day, the first of hopefully
many Sub~Talk Days at Branford. The crew and members and
recruits, for without you it would not have been possible.
;| ) Sparky
*KEWL!* I'll bring a KEG since I know there are laws against Driving Under the Influence (DUI) but I didn't see any laws regarding OPERATING Under the Influence (OUI) ... C'est La Vie! Oui! Oui! :)
[... I didn't see any laws regarding OPERATING Under the Influence (OUI)...]
Well then let me invite you to come back in March for the class & we'll teach you all about "Rule G" < G >
This of course has nothing to do with operating with a smile (OWS)
Aw DANG! I thought you guys were fun. :)
Yeah, Rule "G" is pretty much a standard throughout the industry. OK ... tell ya what. We do some fast modifications to 6688, swap out the air tank with a keg and put a third handle in the cab to dispense a cold one. I figure there'll be enough oomph out of the compressors that we won't have to hand pump the keg. So what about THAT? Heh.
Let's get CI Peter to start the mods ASAP.
Yo, Unca Peter ... in de hole on track 3! :)
I can see it now, a line forms ready to get under the car when it's time to "drain the tanks" < G >
Hahahahahaha ... GOOD one. Yeah, don't mind me ... my idea of FOAMING involves brewer's yeast and carboys. If you ever make it up this way one of these daze, you can try some of our own homebrew beer or one of the many excellent beers from all over the planet that the importers will NOT bring into NYC owing to the Coors/Bud/Heineken conspiracy. One of the good things about living upstate is that when you go to the "beer store" you can choose from 450 or more brands. Yum. :)
Funny side trip - I feel bad that Museum procedure (that I was unaware of) required draining the air tank at the END of the run. Normally we'd just DUMP, and we were done. The "tank trick" was done at the START of the run in my day. Had I thought of it before being reminded of it after screwing up, I would have just kicked the tripper and let someone ELSE wonder why there's a tornado in the front of the car when it didn't charge up. Heh.
I am not worthy! (grin)
[... Museum procedure ... required draining the air tank at the END of the run ...]
It's a sea level thing, got to get that water out !
BTW, was upset to find some of the guy still aren't draing BOTH tanks on our Pride of the Fleet, i.e. 357 ... a big stream came out when I cracked the cock on the second tank :-(
Well, count on me to remember NEXT time. Made notes of all my little screwups so as to not do any of those again. I see why they call John "Sparky" ... fail to follow procedure to the "T" and he tickles you with a hot trolley pole. Heh. Your ops are QUITE different from SOP and the TA ... actually makes *sense*!!! :)
OWS...OWTears...I fix these subway trainsets everday, I know how they work end to end and top to bottom and would NEVER have had this opportunity in NYCTA. Redbirds still rule #5 lines...my crew brings 'the dead' back to life.' CI Peter
Well, if you need a designated driver operator for 1689, I'll volunteer to do it all day!
Kewl! Backup! :)
Yeah, ain't she sweet?
Yep, 1689 looks and runs great.
Yep, I wuz there too.
Had some "handle time" on the Arnine ! Lou from Brooklyn gave some on the spot instructions, started out at Stoney Creek in the drizzle, piloted the arnine safe and swiftly through the "S" curve. Meanwhile Thurston was hiding behind a seat frame, Doug was sweating bullets and Selkirk, an experienced motorman, combed his beard nervously, all wondering would I stop this rolling tonnage safely at the "el" platform or go sliding on the wet rails beyond.
I navigated the switches nicely and coasted to the "el" platform. Nobody went flying like bowling pins. Meanwhile, CI Peter was nowhere to be found, probably hiding in one of the barns examining equipment he only dreamed about. Geez, what a bunch of wimps ! Next time they give me handle time, I'll take off the blindfold !
The highlight of the day ? Handle time on the arnine, nope, how about sailing through the tollbooths with my EZPass transponder stuck on my windshield!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Funny, I never knew Arnines could fit through toll booths.
Arnines do NOT fit through tollbooths. They take 'em OUT. :)
True, but not too frequently we hope < G >
At WORST you may have to change out some glass after each event. The Arnine wouldn't feel a THING taking out those cheesy tollbooths. :)
A BMT standard could inflict even more damage.:)
Well, unless we can get some serious money for rehab soon, I'd guess that the Standard would lose the battle soon with a cheesy tollbooth. :(
Even though the weather was wet, it still was a great day at Branford. Got my handle time on the ARNINE!!
Got to meet fellow subtalkers!
Here's a photo of some of the subtalkers attending today. Will post more images soon.
-Larry
Yep, Larry, that's the guilty party! What a good line-up of suspects!
Note Mr. T has his back to camera (extreme left). ;)
For some reason I'm missing...guess I was out foaming on a trolley car. :)
Larry, it was good to meet you and your family! We have to car pool up to Branford one of these days.
Doug
Nah, you were flapping your gums inside the exhibit haul with your trolleyload of geese. Hot Damn! We moved about four cases of that snake oil thanks to your smooth rap. :)
We have been extensively trained in yadda yadda speak ;-)
Heh. Sorry for bolting out of the Peter Witt on ya in the midst of your rap there - I heard on the radio there were problems down the railroad, so figured better I run out and go down the line and see who got stuck with the ball against them. Switch thrown the wrong way. I quickly learned that if the trolleys were delayed, we'd have to ABD a trip and I'd have none of that. :)
And one time a trolley guy got to 15E 4 minutes early which made you guys wait. The Canadian Car & Foundry I was operating made you eat my dust. I knew I was having fun with you guys when Lou started singing to me over the radio < G >
Heh. Yeah, nothing like the old wooden meatwhistle to start the day. One thing that folks don't appreciate about Branford is not only are you guys DEAD SERIOUS about what you do, but you're *SO* good at all that Branford does, you're BEYOND it and can have FUN ...
I'm SO used to adminiswigs, educrats and "docents with their noses in the air" that Branford was SUCH a different scene, I just HAD to be a part of it. And THANK YOU and everyone else for adopting us. :)
I couldn't POSSIBLY be more impressed and pleased! YOU guys are a genuine class act! No joke.
Yeah Doug, does look like a line up.
It turned out to be a great day in spite of the rain, yes must car pool up there again soon.
"For some reason I'm missing...guess I was out foaming on a trolley car."
Still going through getting my images ready to post, but did find this one:
Be careful, watch your step. You may slip on all that foam! :o)
Well ya gotta love the way these kibbitzers are trying to fool everyone. And yet nobody figured out why the HOSE CAR was parked there. It wasn't raining, we had to keep hosing down the ground around these guys to disperse the froth. All those "no foaming" signs were ignored and Sarge refused to write up any desk appearance tickets. :)
Looks like the same picture except there I go next to Mr. T with a cigar....geez I made it to the line-up after all...
Dave Cole at the front of the pack. Fella, you get around!
Just like a bad penny... You'll never know where I'll show up next. :-)
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
Too bad you never made it down to St. Louis when you were living in Chicago. Would have taken you on a tour of MetroLink, the shops, and we could have driven the route of the new North-South line. Would have topped that visit off with a stop at the St. Louis Museum of Transportation.
http://www.museumoftransport.org/welcome.htm
We have 27 diesel or other internal combustion locomotives, 10 electrics, one gas-turbine, 45 freight cars, 31 passenger train cars, plus street, interurban and rapid transit cars. Our 33 steam locomotives make up the largest collection in North America, with an example of nearly every major type.
Dave, wish I'd known you were in St. Louis... I was at the Museum of Transportation on 30 June with Anon_e_mouse Jr. We had made the trip out to pick up my "new" truck in Warrenton and could have used a tour guide. Oh well, I still want to come back out... didn't take time for MetroLink (did the Arch instead... nice museum, nice movie, not worth the trip to the top, IMHO).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Caught by the camera lens, l to r:
Mr t (back to camera); Larry RedBird; Jeff (aka Sarge); David Cole; Bob Anderson; Harry Beck; NotchIt's wife & daughter; BingBong; Selkirk; MikeF; CI Peter; RIPTA Hope Tunnel
Who wasn't:
Anon-E-Mouse; Peter the Pole; Sparky; Lou from Brooklyn; BMTman; SubSurf; 8th Ave Steve; NotchIt; Bill Newkirk; JeffH; Bob's wife.
Hope I didn't miss anyone.
I guess you turned around so that everyone would think that I was the only one there wearing a tie!
Hey I was wearing a tie also and my dress penguin suit.
;| ) Sparky
And your wife's hat protector :-)
Oh, I thought he'd stolen a shower cap from one of the local raggedy motels. :)
I meant in the photo. There were a number of guys wearing ties, including all the operators but my tie was the only one visible in the picture. By the way you did a great job dispatching. Between 1689, the regular trolley operations, and the tie replacement team, It was certainly not an easy job that day.
Thanks for the picture. Looks like you guys had a great time. Only 2 look the way I imagined. Interesting !!!!!!!!!!!
Sure hope I wasn't one of them that looked as expected, but yeah, I've already given away far too many clues. Real nice having that handle in my hands again - something that'll amuse YOU though - I had a HELL of a time with the braking. The detents were nowhere to be found, didn't start to apply until the 6 o'clock position and I found that it worked a LOT better in plain triple valve mode with the butt plug out. Most of the other folks found it to be a lot easier to run with it out too.
Wish you'd had a chance to make it up there - I would have handed you a screwdriver and asked you to fix it. Heh. DAMNED nice runs though, the propulski is in MAGNIFICENT shape, these guys did WONDERFUL things with the car. You would have been impressed and I'd have made sure *YOU* got some handle time ...
The wet rails didn't help >G<
(Gawd, I sound like a T/O that busted a signal)
Heh. Well, in all sincerity I worked the Brighton line. What I was worrying about PRIOR to the event is that we're losing our leaves up here now and I expected to find the Branford rails in TOTAL Brighton autumn conditions. Wet rail you can deal with, it's JUICED rails with leaves that really cause you to dump your pants and make like baseball and slide home. I was *mortally* embarassed when I slipped the wheels there, not so much THAT as not HEARING it. Your propulski on that car is in such TIGHT and PROPER conditions that there was no accompanying "skreek" to it. Glad I didn't chew through the rail. Heh.
But yeah, I *really* think TA "T/O's" of the present day would find Branford's run MOST amusing. Take it into parallel and wail for about a kilofoot, then have to take it down to 10 going into the curve on a RISING HILL. In normal practice, you'd want to coast through the curve until car ten cleared ... oh so many things that you do on TA property that just ain't the right thing to do at Branford. But hey, nobody died and I got my desired result when I operated. There's nothing that warms my heart more than opening the cab door and seeing QUIET geese with that look of total fear on their faces. :)
BTW, they should be posting the Slow Order on A2/A4 between Ave H and Newkirk anyday now. Past 5 years for fallen leaves on the down grade into Newkirk.
Yep, that was always a given and then came ice season (did that too). Once I saw the tracks had no signs of leaves having touched them, that was the ONLY reason why I charged towards the curve and took it down right AT the entrance to the curve the way the TA taught. If I had ANY doubts, you would have seen a WIMP at the controls. Once again, sorry for getting you twitchy, but I knew it was safe to do what I did. Then of course, the MOMENT I got proud of myself, I applied the OTHER TA rule about coasting through the curve, not having noticed the grade before and slowed down TOO much. Ah well ... I was hoping to have another run to prove to ya that I had it, but was really starting to feel whipped after lunch and didn't want to operate any longer. A tired motorman is worse than a drunk one. And sloppier. :)
Interesting. Most of the people from SubTalk I've met seemed to look sort of like I imagined. In this group only David Cole and maybe On the Juice seemed completely different from how I imagined. For some reason I thought David Cole was a much older guy and was surprised that he was so young. I don't know where I got that impression, I probably knew an elderly person with the same name. Kevin (Selkirk) was pretty much as I imagined him and probably would have picked him out from the group even if I wasn't introduced. My biggest surprise regarding someone completely different from how I imagined them was when I met HeyPaul a couple of years ago. I don't know why but until I met him I imagined him as obese and he turned out to be paper thin!
TrainDude: Was I one of the two? I know my operators getup, shirt and tie, and my shaven head is different than the average Harley person.
Dang! Got fingered in the lineup again. Well, bucko, you failed to Mirandize me so I'm off. :)
... so I'm off.
We know, you have been for years :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Show me in the rulebook where it says you've got to be *SANE* to run a railroad? :)
[My biggest surprise regarding someone completely different from how I imagined them was when I met HeyPaul a couple of years ago. I don't know why but until I met him I imagined him as obese and he turned out to be paper thin!]
Actually, heypaul IS obese....the person you met was really avid reader pretending to be Heypaul.
Unc Steve....I'll catch up to you one day....and I still don't know why Unca Selkirk called me the 'bagman.' Look at my pic...second from the right...guy with the VCR belt and the badge. You wouldn't even have to see my pic to know me...just listen for the 'frequency' as I walk the line. BTW: package from Jay Street...'We have reveiwed your resume and reccomend that you apply for the next Signal Maintainers Exam.' One and one half years ago...wanna by a R142 'B' car really cheap??? CI Peter now ressurects the DeadBird Fleet!!!
Got a stack of those letters. Will wallpaper my den when I retire.
Too bad canvas letters weren't made of real canvas. I'd have a circus tent by now. :)
I was busting chops, bro ... "bagman" meant moneymaker. Folks came to see YOU as well, ya know. :)
That is good to know....the WB2SGT 'Redbirdmobile' was an object of curiousity at the diner. Didn't even have the big 'bugcatcher' antenna inductances!!! CI Peter
That's OK ... as long as you left your California Kilowatt transmitter home, they forgave ya. Only problem was that Branford's radios didn't start working until you were south of Bridgeport. Gotta tune up that final of yours again, I think it needs some tweaking. :)
I really wish I could have made it but New York is quite far from Toronto. Also, even though I have a long weekend which eases time constraints quite a bit, I still had work scheduled and all of the family events involved with Thanksgiving so it wasn't going to happen, which is very unfortunate. My understanding based on what I've read here, is that operator instructors stepped a lot of people in the Subtalk group through running the R9 car down the line. Believe me when I say this, I would have loved to have done that.
I'll get down to visit Branford eventually, and see the equipment there even if it isn't running. It's a shame my summer trip had to be cancelled at the last minute, but it was out of everybody's hands who was involved.
-Robert King
Does Canada always celebrate Thanksgiving on the same day that the US observes Columbus Day?
I honestly don't know. If it isn't always on the same day, the two do overlap eachother very frequently.
-Robert King
Canada always celebrates Thanksgiving on the second weekend of October. I don't know much about Columbus Day, is it a specific day of the month or the second weekend in October as well?
Canada has no sense of anything...home of Bombardier.
Bombardier, I still can't figure out why you did such a lousy job making the R142's... Do you hate americans, so you give us defective trains and no recipt to return them with?
Well, in fairness, Bombardier (of Thunder Bay, CANADA and NOT its plants in the US) make WONDERFUL trains respected the world over. Dunno what happened to Amtrak or the TA, but somehow I suspect it might have something to do with "design by committee of bureaucrats" more than it has something to do with Bombardier. Car builders build what the customer asks for ...
But generally, Canadians LOVE us, even if they can't figure out what our collective malfunction is. :)
In future software revisions, do you know if that 'blanking out' thing that the Bombardier R142 electronic signs do will be fixed? It's really annoying to have to stare at a train for a long time to get all the information.
I'd have to leave that to others to answer, dunno what they did for signage. My bet is that Bombardier had to hire someone else to design and build that piece since the usual Bombardier railcars normally have rollsigns. :)
Well, you guys have George Bush.
-Robert King
We'll gladly trade him for your Cretien, and raise you an Ashcroft. :)
Columbus Day is tecnically Oct 12th, but when it falls on a weekend it is celebrated on the preceding Friday or the following Monday. This year it was celebrated on Monday Oct 14th.
What I forgot to mention in my last post, re being "stepped through" running the R9 by Lou (I think) (more like being jolted through -- I handled learning the clutch on a '73 Pinto better) -- was that, with all the trouble I've had with NY police since moving here a couple months ago, the irony was that I got stopped by a cop while I was DRIVING A SUBWAY! Get details from Sparky (kids on the track -- I missed them -- but it sort of spiced up the day).
I think they were there because they thought SalamAllah might have been there!! Seriously though, it wasn't a real cop, but someone from the Ct Dept of Conservation.
Yeah, the real cop was ON BOARD!
The Sarge might be retired, but he could have made a citizen's arrest if you failed to negotitate the lines' curves at the appropriate speed limits! Heh :)
Well you see, bub ... where you BLEW it is that you failed to announce to your customers that there would be ... "a slight delay caused by a police action." Here's yer G-2, sign here. :)
P.S. Lou (again, I think he was my teacher) handled my "arrest" with aplomb and cool braking. He's a real learner-centered teacher. I would have had everybody on their noses.
Not a problem, I enjoy sharing something I love. I love Members Day and Operator Training to pass on the thrill.
One of the reasons I fell in love with the place, the subway cars MOVE and I can even MOVE THEM...
Yeah, as long as we 'watch it' on the curves...
Also another nice thing about Branford's subway ops is that the cars don't have governors on 'em and the line doesn't have grade timers...:)
Oh I'm sure after I ran at the curve with Unca Lou hanging on for dear life in full parallel and bringing her back down just as we were about to hit the curve, there's going to be two shot GT's out there before I come back. Heh. I wanted to see if we could get Uncle Steve his mystery note (G above high C) but about all I could manage to get the trainload of geese up to was E above high C (the GEESE screaming EEEEEeeeeeeeee!) ... but we'll see if we can throw her into parallel with the brakes locked next time and pop the clutch. :)
E above middle C was about as good as it got - reminded me of those AA trains between 59th and 72nd Sts. G above middle C was a n/b D train at 81st St. in full flight.
Yeah, we've gotta add a mile or two to that straightaway. Maybe if we ever have an ECONOMY again, I can come up with a half a mil, borrow 1689, connect the shoes back up and let 'er rip down 8 miles with third rail up here. I'll get you *H* above middle C ... I was able to tell readily that 1689 was neither spayed nor neutered and the propulsky on her was just PERFECT ... she can get to C of the next octave with no pesky timers in the way. :)
Let's see - B above middle is really howling ass, 60-65 mph, I'd say. Don't know if the R-1/9s could go that fast. Wayne says he heard R-6-2 1233 get up to A-440 on the Hillside Ave. express stretch at Sutphin Blvd. and everything was a blur.
1689 got up a good head of steam on the outbound run.
They'd get up to those speeds regularly on that stretch of track. The R-9s may have been considered "old" back in the 70s, but they could righteously move.
Yes they could. My express rides on them were rare, but they were swift. That first E train I rode on in Queens in May of 1968 flew down the track. 36th St. in particular was a blur. The gears hit F# above middle C on that occasion.
I had some swift trips between Manhattan & Brooklyn.
So did I, through the 14th St. tunnel.
I did that trip thrice on the 14th and 15th of October.
;-) Sparky
The L line out of Manhattan is a great ride within almost any car with a railfan window ... the current best is a Slant 40.
AFAIK the slants are all gone from the L now. We rode on a train of R-143s last week.
>>>"The L line out of Manhattan is a great ride within almost
any car with a railfan window ... the current best is a Slant 40."<<<
twas the best while the slants were roaming the L. They've been
displaced by the R-143s. No more slants on the 14th Street Line.
They now preside on the Sea Beach Line [N] and the Brighton Express
[>Q<] runs.
;-) Sparky
And on an occasional weekend W.
are they updating the windows on the r40 slants? because i was on #4419 yestrday on the Q and it had new windows for the door. Are all the r40 slants getting new windows or some?
But even when the slants were on the L, there weren't too many of them there. R42s and R40ms made up the lion's share of the L's fleet. Well now you can only find them in one place, the Broadway BMT line on the N, < Q > and W.
It's funny, a year ago I thought of the R-40's as synonymous with the diamond-Q. Sure, they occasionally showed up on the L and N, but they basically belonged to the Q.
Now I think of the R-40's as synonymous with the N, where they make up the bulk of the fleet. Sure, they still run on the diamond-Q, but the diamond-Q doesn't run on weekends, when the R-40's are still plying back and forth on the Sea Beach, to the near-exclusion of any other equipment.
Well, there's R40M on the "N". As far as the ex-Eastern Div cars are concerned, yep, the deed is done. #4448-4449 was seen on the Slant Q last week.
wayne.
Keep your eyes on the W, too!! I have seen R-40s (slants) showing up on the W (with a "diamond W" letter identifier). They don't go very often, but since the Stillwell closure and the R-40 slants coming to the South Division, I have seen the slants on the W a number of times.
"and the R-40 slants coming to the South Division"
What I meant to say was the North-assigned R-40 slants coming to the South Division. My mistake!!
I don't think they have the Circle "W", just the diamond. When the R40 rollsigns were minted, there may not have been any intent to have "W" service past a rush hour short line from Astoria to Whitehall. The Bridge situation changed that.
wayne
No, some R-40's have the circle. There seem to be one or two R-40 W trains every weekend.
Thank you for pointing that out. Come to think of it, they probably did that when they added the diamond "Q" to the roll - was done last year I think.
wayne
MMmmmm, Dekalb bypass with the front window. :-)
No DeKalb bypass on weekends.
I got a dose of that when the slants ran on the B.
Seen many slant diamond W's. Especially on weekends. You would figure that they would want to keep the slants in the barn on the weekend
I didn't see a single slant on the W when I rode down to Stillwell Ave. and back to Manhattan via the Sea Beach express the day I flew in on Saturday the 12th. There was an R-32 set, though, although it was headed in the opposite direction. Our train was delayed 15 minutes at 9th Ave. due to a fallen tree branch across the track. Once we got to Stillwell, I made it as far as the second car before we left for Manhattan, which means I didn't get any sort of railfan view along the Sea Beach line.
Know what would be really cool? Slants on the R :)
Speaking of which it really sucks that the crew dispatch office has been keeping me in the north, I think its been like 4-5 months since I've last set foot on the R...
It's funny, a year ago I thought of the R-40's as synonymous with the diamond-Q.
Now I think of the R-40's as synonymous with the N, where they make up the bulk of the fleet.
It's funny, and I know it's been a while, but I can't get the R40's out of my head as synonymous with the B. For a long while they made up 99.9% of the B's fleet, so when I think of West End, I think of the slants, so having them on the W is kind of cool. The N at that time was mostly R68. (Although at that time there were a few slants on the L and M. I don't remember seeing them on the J). It's only recently that I am getting used to the slants on the N. I wonder how the assignment of cars will change (if it does) when the Manhattan Bridge reopens.
And to some, the slants are still synonimous with the E and F, where they debuted in 1968.
Nowadays, most people associate the F with the R-46s.
From 1987-1997, the B was exclusively R40 slant, with an odd R68/R32 appearance, maybe once or twice a year. When the B ran to 168th St, almost every slant was assigned to it. After the slants were removed from the B in 10/97 they were assigned to the more familiar N/Q lines.
Hey, I remember them making up most of the A train. But for me, the slants will always be associated with the B and later Q lines.
Well there you go, another memory to be cherished. Like the REd Birds, riding the Slants is getting harder. Have also enjoyed them on the Q Express (almost a good as the Arnines on the 8th Ave ?) ... but that's harder now too :-(
I still like the Slant R-40s since they have a great railfan window. I rode many Slants on the "B" line. The Slants are also great on the "Q" where you can get great views of the Brighton Line. Too bad that they're getting harder to find.
#3 West End Jeff
Thurston...apparently you ain't up on your car rosters. The Slant 40's have been sent to the BMT Southern Division in light of the fleets of R-143's running on the L.
Ouch...A three fold response to Mr. RT., the king of misquotes.
;-) Sparky
Ouch...A three fold response to Mr. RT., the king of misquotes.
;-) Sparky
Chill Sparky, I was reminiscing ... same as someone else here does about the GG.
As long as we're reminiscing about the Canarsie line, I remember the BMT standards there. Back then to me it was cruel and unusual punishment to be riding on them.
Being more seasoned then you Steve and reminiscing about the
14th Street Line, how about a mix of Multi's and Standards.
Also how about 14th Street Local & Express Service with only
two tracks. Rush Hours 13 & 16 ran express non stop from
Myrtle Ave to Lorimer St with the Multis and the Standards
were locals from Myrtle Ave to Lorimer Street.
;-) Sparky
Also how about 14th Street Local & Express Service with only
two tracks. Rush Hours 13 & 16 ran express non stop from
Myrtle Ave to Lorimer St with the Multis and the Standards
were locals from Myrtle Ave to Lorimer Street.
How in the world did they do that? The service at the local stations must have been really poor!
At the time this was in operation, the local departed Myrtle Ave.
right after the express and by the time it reached Lorimer St.,
the next Express was right behind the local at Graham Ave.
towards Eight Ave. AM.
PM, the local was no more then 120 seconds behind the express
departing Eight Avenue, then the gap till the next pair.
IIRC, all trains ran local in the reverse direction.
Also you had three services on the 14th Street Line during
rush hours. Locals ran Eight Avenue ~ Myrtle Avenue with
Standards only. 13 with Multis only Eight Ave. ~ Lefferts Blvd.,
as express and 16 Eight Ave. ~ Carnarsie with a mix of Multis and
some Standards as express.
;-) Sparky
The service at the local stations must have been really poor!
Not at all. The locals ran at 12 tph as did the expresses for a combined 24 tph. The locals ran between Myrtle and 8th Ave. So, local station passengers essentially got a near empty train.
They currently operate 15 tph with no short runs. So, today's passengers wait on average 30 seconds less but get a crowded train.
The locals were 6-car AB's with a seating capacity of 450 passengers. The current 8-car 60 footers seat only 384 passengers. So, there was a good chance at getting a seat for local passengers in the old days.
Stephen,
With 12 tph on express, was the ratio split evenly between
Canarsie and Lefferts Boulevard?
;-) Sparky
With 12 tph on express, was the ratio split evenly between
Canarsie and Lefferts Boulevard?
Yes
Stephen, Thank You.
;-) Sparky
So I guess that is what the tail track at Myrtle was for. Basically, I guess an express would leave Myrtle, and a local would follow right behind it. How long did they have to wait for the next express to leave Myrtle again, so that it wouldn't get blocked by the local in front of it. (Obviously, once the local got to Lorimer, the express could have caught up to it, and be right behind it).
How long did they have to wait for the next express to leave Myrtle again, so that it wouldn't get blocked by the local in front of it.
They each ran at 5 minute intervals. The local could leave 90 seconds after the express left. So, the following express would leave 210 seconds after the local.
You are right, that does sound like a decent service. I wonder why they never tried that on the L again. I know a few years ago they were talking about a "skip-stop" on the L, using Y or something. I believe local opposition killed it. This "express on the local track" sounds better. And the local stations still seem to get decent service at those kind of headways.
I wonder why they never tried that on the L again.
They don't have the cars to run that kind of service. We are talking about increasing service levels from 15 to 24 tph a 60% increase.
What is also interesting, there is no guarantee that the CBTC system they plan to install will be able to operate those service levels.
Can someone clarify, I thought the locals used the multis because the acceleration and braking rates were faster, and the expresses used the A/B's. Prior postings seemed to indicate the opposite.
The A/Bs could not be used on the Fulton Street El between
Atlantic Avenue and 80th Street, never rebuilt, so it was
MS asigned to the 13 14th~Fulton Street Express.
;-) Sparky
MS running non-stop between Lorimer and Myrtle - that must have been fun going 35MPH through the Serpentine! Didn't they have signs in the MS telling passengers to hang on?
wayne
They did indeed. I can only imagine riding on a train of Multis through the 14th St. tunnel. They probably sprinted uphill.
But they weren't as efficient at stopping. When they were on the #10, there were instances of them overshooting stations....once overshooting Myrtle Ave, Queens bound so much that it finally came to a stop halfway to Central Ave!
They did have braking problems, didn't they?
Greller's book documents them well.
Whew! And it held the rails over the switches and through the reverse-curve? Must have, I've never heard of a derailment involving the MS.
That must have been fun with all the pax flying about inside the cars.
wayne
I thought that it was only the #13's from Lefferts, using the Multis, which ran nonstop from Myrtle to Lorimer, with the #16 from Canarsie making all stops.
Met with Big Ed (aka BIGEDIRTMANL) last week and he reminisced about OPERATING A-B Standards on the Canarsie Line. He was one of the last Motormen to do so...
Steve,
If riding ABs on the Canarsie line is cruel and unusual punishment, may I be found guilty and sentenced to riding them. Almost 50 years in service with minimal maintainence, they and the D-types were class acts!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
That's the way I felt about the standards back then. I flat out didn't like them. No route signs up front and only three sets of doors per side for a car that big. No wonder I looked forward to bailing at Union Square for a nice express sprint up Broadway on an N train with letter markings up front. That express run is still excellent today, BTW.
Rest assured my feeling about the BMT standards has mellowed. They were solid and indestructible. Once the museum set is up and running again, I'd love to go on a fantrip on them. Or the Triplexes, for that matter. I never rode on them.
>>>"three sets of doors per side for a car that big."<<<
Yes Steve, three sets of large doors, much faster loading and
roomier seat wise, then the current fleets or R whatever. >G<
;-) Sparky
As I've said before, I was all of ten when I first saw the BMT standards. By that time I had gotten used to seeing R units with four sets of doors per side and end signs and liked both concepts. Had I grown up riding on the standards with nothing else to compare them to except perhaps the Triplexes (which could also swallow crowds, incidentally), I wouldn't have felt like ralphing on that July day in 1967 on the Broadway Junction platform. Trust me - I appreciate those well-built cars now.
>>>"same as someone else here does about the GG."...
While where on the subject of the GG, did a BMT Standard ever
operate as a GG?
Recent route curtain for sale on E-Bay from BMT Standard [large]
showed GG Brooklyn~Queens spliced in. What this a contingency
plan after 60th Street was connected to Queens Blvd in case of
equipment shortage? Inquisitive railfan asking.
;-) Sparky
Though I couldn't swear to it, I don't think that the BMT Standards ever ran on the "GG". I think that you're correct in mentioning that they spliced in the "GG" sign just in case they had to run the BMT Standards on the "GG". Otherwise the cars that ran on the "GG" until they were retired were the R-1/9s.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff,
It was just a what if ... or could of ... or whatever ... fantasizing
couldn't resist asking on this board. Thanks for the chime in.
;-) Sparky
No but in 1955 when 60th Street connection opened, they did run the Brighton Local Mon-Fri 6A-645P using standards to Continental Ave. Last Train left Forest Hills at 645PM. I used to catch it at 648 at 6rd Dr every other Friday.
I'm well aware that the BMT Standards occasionally operated on the IND Queens Blvd. Line on the local tracks. Now that train would be the "R" train and R-46s run on that line with the occasional train of R-32s.
#3 West End Jeff
John,
I have it on good authority that ABs DID operate on the GG, though it was not for long and sporatic. BTW, when the 63rd st connection went in, the ABs would operate out to Forest Hills during the week. Also, ABs were tried as an experiment on the "F" from 179 st. in the 50's.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
>>>"when the 63rd st connection went in, the ABs would operate out to Forest Hills during the week"<<<
I know they operated on the "Brighton Local" to Forest Hills, when
the connection was made to 60th Street tunnel. Yes, when you could
take the BMT to Queensboro or Queens Plaza.
It would be interesting if anybody has photos and can post of the
Standards in IND service.
;-) Sparky
There is a photo of a train of standards in some publication (whose name escapes me at the moment) at the IND Queens Plaza station the day the connecting tunnel opened in December of 1955.
That may have been a remnant of the 1966 Jamaica Yard crisis when R-1/9s assigned to that yard began dropping like flies. A group of condemned BMT standards were yanked off the scrapline and sent back to revenue service after the S for Scrap was painted over on their sides. They were used on the Broadway-Brooklyn local while 32 R-16s were loaned to Jamaica Yard for GG service. Perhaps there was consideration to use the standards on the GG, but the R-16s went over instead.
Steve,
I think it would have been most intriguing if they did send
the ABs instead of the R-16s. It was the mystique of seeing
the splice of GG on a BMT curtain. May I phantasize? Why
even your beloved Thunderbirds did duty on the "GG", in what
IMO was their handsomest paint scheme, the dark green.
;-) Sparky
IIRC the R-10s also ran there while wearing silver and blue. My vote for best R-10 paint scheme goes for the teal-and-white racing stripe job.
R10's were a fixture on the GG during the 1970's.
What is even more pleasing then how fast these cars, is that they still DO !
I'm part of the next generation, as far as the Lo-V, Hi-V, H & M & old trolleys (my first & only trolley was a PCC in Boston).
....and the deadman....:o)
Branford Subtalk Day Mastercard ad:
Ticket for Subtalk charter Arnine rides- $20.00
Hotel room near Branford (2 nights)- $120.00
Watching Doug dump the train- Priceless
:o)
:(
It was one of those things...the thought that you just can't get into words and out fast enough...."The reverser key's forward....don't DO THAT......"
Next time I'll open my big mouth, OK?
If it had been anything OTHER THAN the Arnine, even centering the reverser key won't help ya. The reverser on the Arnine was that wonderful ticket to gulping down that sammich while rolling. If you center up on anything newer, you still dump. :)
And ANOTHER unique quantity to the magic Arnine was that when you went to change ends, you didn't have to dump it. Simply take out your reverser key after centering it up while charged, rotate your brake handle and remove, then go to the other end and *GO* ...
The way modern trains run, needing to dump, then recharge before completing a relay is probably one of the major factors in the limitation of TPH's out of a stub terminal these days. You could turn around Arnines a *LOT* faster than you could anything newer.
The ONE thing though that I got out of all this (especially after Bongbong noted the big difference in handling between SMEE's and AMUE's) is I now know why when I worked the railroad, so many people were willing to hand me the Arnine headed next out and fall back so I could have my preciouses on the railroad. If you're running SMEE's, and have to then run an AMUE, it's very different. I get it now. :)
I'd have to agree with you there, it is a great thing on the D-Type trip when the two operators pass control from one end to the other, all without dumping, a smooth stop and go the other way, operation.
Well, what's strange is that in the "real TA" you'd STILL dump anyway when in revenue. But that trick was nice for yard moves and relays and such. So many things I'd forgotten about including a handle trick from the old days that I won't mention in public. I'll write you later once I get caught up with my own geese here. :)
Some of the training material at Branford states that the brakes SHOULD hold in the handle off position, but that you shouldn't depend on it, so you are to dump, just to make sure.
Yep ... the Arnines were one UNIQUE design though ... depression era frugality. If you make the compressor run, you're causing the city to give Edison more money, the reverse-thread bulbs to make pilfering worthless ... there was a LOT of "cheapness" built into those cars by design. When you learned to run them properly, you could spend a good amount of your time in COAST and they were designed so that a GOOD motorperson could go from coast to parallel and let the CAR decide what to do with the motorperson input.
They were DAMNED efficient in their design. Dynamic braking was supposedly considered but the necessity for losing power in the grids for "setup" was determined to be more expensive than the cost of shoes when they needed replacing. DAMNED frugal. That's also why there's THREE heater breakers so you could turn on JUST ONE section of the car if it was a little nippy without lighting up the WHOLE car.
My visit there brought back a *LOT* of memories from old-timers as to ***WHY*** things were as they were on the Arnines. As much as folks from Brooklyn love their gate cars and standards, Hylan was a CHEAPSKATE. Arnines could be quite friendly for electricity by design. Savings in coast alone notwithstanding. Pull, coast ...
But yeah, the ONLY train I can trust not to move is one where the shoes are tight on the wheels. I got twitchy every time someone stepped across the railroad when I was stopped. Arnine brakes are good and all, but they've been known to let go even when the pipe was 0 PSI. I wouldn't step in front of one unless the ratchet was tight and you guys don't do that. :)
(I demonstrated for a few people WHY you guys disconnected the handbrakes, showing EXACTLY where the handle tended to land) Heh.
We don't want any of the museum pieces or our guests to get damaged.
In that order?
These days ... yes, as an MD can give you new parts, but those of the muesum fleet are not so easily replaced :-(
But ... but ... but ... most of us were ALREADY damaged. We showed up that way! :)
???
You'll have to point that one out to me...
Take a brake reduction, then remove the handle I thought, guess I'm wrong.
No, Thurston's right ... the brake stands on the Arnine aren't quite the way they SHOULD be. Shoes should be nice and tight at handle out position. Minor thing though, they're close enough to right to operate easily but the valves are a bit off their proper position.
ROTFLMAOKTC!!!
Doug you didn't???!!! :) How could you!!
I am very disappointed :) You'd be grounded out at WRM for dumping...
Hey, I wanted to ask you (or any of the Branford guys who read this) if you worked with Fred Krock when he came east for two weeks earlier this summer...respond off-line.
Thanks
Jeremy
Watching Doug dump the train- Priceless
At least he did it while standing still... though I'm always thrilled when I get an opportunity to put the geese on their beaks in the '9.
Arseventeens are more forgiving :).
R10's and later are like driving a volkswagen. Arnines are a lot more fun. I used to carry a little rubber stamp with me with a human silhouette. Every time I put geese on the storm door, I'd reach out the cab window and add another "customer satisfaction mark" down below it. Concussions R Us. :)
[... My understanding based on what I've read here, is that operator instructors stepped a lot of people in the Subtalk group through running the R9 car down the line. Believe me when I say this, I would have loved to have done that ...]
Those guests in the group were enticed to join the museum at least at the $30 level by being offered their first subway car operating lesson. The operating crew & staff (that was part of the trip) actually paid the "charter" fee. The way Sparky & company worked this out there were smiles all around, i.e. within the group as well as the museum management.
That the management was pleased as well is a GOOD sign. I can only afford to join up with ONE Museum group, and after coming out to play with you guys, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that choosing Branford was precisely the right choice. Never seen anything in my life as special as your place there. In a word, "WOW."
[... Never seen anything in my life as special as your place there. In a word, "WOW." ...]
It's obvious you're NOT for NYC ... WOW has a completely different meaning down here now :-)
Uh-oh ... my bad ... what has "BLISS" been converted into now? (And don't tell me 46th Street) ...
WOW = Wip it Out Wednesday, the radio hosts who started it are no longer on the air ... some friends of their's were dong it in church.
OHHHHhhhhh ... Opie and Andy. Yeah, that "WOW" stuff came from a station in BOSTON that started that several years ago ... you didn't think WNEW did anything ORIGINAL? Not since Zacherle left. Well, I meant the OTHER WOW ... though we DID whip it out and anyone who wanted to could play with my handle. :)
Yes, a great time was had by all! Wish I could have spent more time with everyone but duty called... several trips with 629 and lots of regular visitors to take through the barns. But I did manage to get some handle time on the Arnine... first time I've run that one. And as someone else has posted, we're already talking about next year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I arrived at Grand Central Terminal today Sunday, October 13th shortly before 11:30 A.M. I waited around for nearly an hour for #4 Sea Beach Fred and some other SubTalkers, but I didn't find any of you. So I decided to take the IRT 42nd St. shuttle and then I changed to a "W" train so I could go to Coney Island. I rode on R-68 #5054 On the "W" to Coney Island. When I arrived at Stillwell Ave. I saw a slant R-40 on the "W" and took two pictures as the train was getting ready to leave the station!! Then I walked along Surf Ave. and saw that the B&B Carousell was open and I took two rides and as usual I caught the rings. I bought a hot dog at Nathan's and then I took a B36 bus (RTS #4855) to the Sheepshead Bay station on the BMT Brighton Line and board a "Q" train to Manhattan. I was on R-68 #2796 that had no squealing noise whatsoever!! That was a pleasant surprise. Too bad I missed you all, but I made up for it by having a good day at the B&B Carousell. Remember, even though Mike Saltzstein is gone, he is still at the B&B Carousell in spirit.
Bless us all.
#3 West End Jeff
I saw a slant R-40 on the "W" and took two pictures as the train was getting ready to leave the station!!
They were running W slants last weekend also. I wish I got a photo of it, but they seem to be doing this every weekend.
I have one photo at Astoria NB, one photo at Astoria SB, two interior shots on the Astoria el, one photo at 62nd SB, one photo at Fort Hamilton (Sea Beach) NB, and one very blurry photo (it was getting quite dark and the R-40's don't give the smoothest of rides) from the front of an N train of the back of the W train stopped on the express track between Fort Hamilton and 8th to let the N proceed.
(I don't even have the prints yet, let alone decent scans. I can send you a link to the poor-quality scans Snapfish provides, if you like.)
Yeah, I'd like to see them. Did you take them last weekend after we saw them?
Okay, you should be getting an email from Snapfish in a few minutes. Basically, you'll be seeing all the shots on that roll of film, which covers pretty much everything from Borough Hall to the end of my day.
Thanks alot, I'm sure I'll enjoy it! I'll probably look it over tomorrow though, right now I think I signing off and grabbing a bottle of NyQuil - argh, I hate colds....
David, I never got the email from Snapfish.
That's strange. I Cc'ed it to myself and I got it.
I'll forward you another copy.
Dang it!
I'm glad the B&B is running and you got your ride, but it was closed when I was there in the middle of the summer, and my older daughter was mighty disappointed.
The B&B Carousell was running on an unpredictable schedule this past season since they were taking care of the remaining legal matter regarding Mike Saltzsteins estate so at times they were forced to close the B&B Carousell. Now they should be operating on weekends weather permitting through the winter. Next season they should be operating on a more predictable schedule hopefully.
#3 West End Jeff
Now they should be operating on weekends weather permitting through the winter. Next season they should be operating on a more predictable schedule hopefully.
I certainly hope so. It's a City treasure, if not a national one.
I'm hoping that the B&B Carousell is made into a landmark so that it will be protected.
#3 West End Jeff
I can one up you. I saw an R-9 going from East Haven to Short Beach today!!!
We got to the Transit Museum Gallery about 45 min. late, so I don't understand how we missed you. Isn't that where you and Fred decided to meet?
I looked for you there a number of times, but I saw no sign of you and your group, so I boarded a "W" train and went to Coney Island solo instead.
#3 West End Jeff
I also wanted to mention to you that I did peak to #4 Sean Beach Fred at the hotel where he was staying at. AND, I got to dial what is perhaps the most famous telephone number of all time (736-5000) a.k.a. PEnnsylvania 6-5000. Rmemeber the song PEnnsylvania 6-5000?
#3 West End Jeff
I have not been to the Rockaway Parkway station in Canarsie in years. I recntly noticed in some of the pictures of the R143 cars that the crew quarters has been remodeled or rebuilt. It looks different then it use to be before. What went on there ?
Does anyone have an answer for my question ?
I work the L,but I don't remember what the old Crew Room looked like before since I only been a T/O for two years now. As for the room it self, it is very small for that amont of crews the L line has, and the B/O who sometimes comes in durning there swin to eat. This is why I find out what track my Put In from the yard is, so I just can be in a quiet place and rest before my day work.
Robert
Well, I found out how to turn off *that* annoying problem in Netscape 7.0
Edit > Preferences> Privacy & Security > Passwords : Uncheck Remember Passwords
And so I will now continue to examine this product.
Elias
Meanwhile AOL 8.0 is now in production. Keyword;(for AOL users)upgrade. IE 6 is part of the upgrade. AOL 8 has the look of Windows XP. CD-ROM should hit the streets in about 4 weeks. Download will take 3 hours on 44K baud.
>>AOL 8 has the look of Windows XP. <<
Meaning it looks something like the Game Boy I had when I was 13?
Ouch, 3 hours. 90 megs I suppose?
How come on windows propgrams only grow in program size. While on linux a counterpart to a windows program that is 5 megs is 600kilobyts?
Gee... I think it took me 11 minutes to download it.
I went for the default package, not the FULL package.
Probly have a faster connection too.
Elias
Isn't there a way to get via CD? So much easier.
Third Avenue el in the Bronx by Gregory Christiano.
BMT Fulton Line by Karl Burkhardt
Heard on channel 5 news that a lady fell through the gap at penn station. They showed track 9 so I guess its Amtrak. The gap at Penn dont seem to be that large. What are some stations with large gaps? Port Jeff has some large gaps. The station is on a turn and some of the gaps can 16 inches wide.
union square, some of the areas without gap fillers, have some pretty sizable gaps
Did she get seriously hurt (missing body parts, not emotional damage)?
Another place where big gaps are found are at the times square shuttle platform, and the is a huge cap in the back of the Southbound Platform at Grand Central on the 4,5,6.
South Ferry has some large gaps, but there are gap fillers and chains to block off areas where there are no gap fillers. I've seen some NJ Transit stations with large gaps.
On a more graphic note, I'm reminded of what can happen if one doesn't "mind the gap" as the brits say:
http://poetry.rotten.com/mind-the-gap/
WARNING: Not for the squeamish.... You've been warned...
It looks like an NYC station and NYC equipment, doesn't it?
THAT IS A NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY STATION AND THAT LOOKS LIKE AN R-40M
JESUS!
Very bad. Yes that is no doubt a NYC subway station because I see the orange line that most stations have near the edge. I'm thinking it may be an R42 though, instead of an R40M. I wonder where that horror happened.
Definitely an R-42. The R-40M has the same narrow ribbing as the R-40.
Yeah I'm thinking R42 also... it was the platform edge that first got me thinking that it was an NYC station.
On a more graphic note, I'm reminded of what can happen if one doesn't "mind the gap" as the brits say:
http://poetry.rotten.com/mind-the-gap/
WARNING: Not for the squeamish.... You've been warned...
It looks like an NYC station and NYC equipment, doesn't it?
Rotten.com is often amusing, but unfortunately - or, more likely, fortunately - its pictures are frequently of questionable authenticity.
Gaps exist on the Bronx elevated lines at Freeman Street, East 174th Street (particularly severe) and at East Tremont/Bronx Zoo.
wayne
There are less severe gaps on every Jamaica Ave. el station with the exception of the almost perfectly straight 121st St and 104th St. It seems there's some kind of curve on this line every 3-4 blocks.
The curves that exist on the Jamaica El are broad, and they follow the natural curvature of Jamaica Avenue. Gaps will form between platform and train when the curve of the tracks is severe, perhaps 7 chains radius or less. (one chain = 22 yards = 66 feet) A gap such as this would be exaggerated were a 75-foot car to platform; no such stock exists on the "J" line, but I am using this as an example.
The worst unprotected gap that I've ever seen is not here in the USA, but in the London Underground, at the Central Line's BANK (of England) Station. This is a major transfer point, comparable in passenger volume to, say Fulton Street on the #4/#5 line. It is smack in the heart of London's financial district. Thousands of people use it every day. It has a 45-degree curve in the platform, similar to that at 14th Street-Union Square- but has absolutely NO gap filler. IRT-length tube cars are used (1992 stock). How nobody is injured or killed at this station never ceases to amaze me.
wayne
"The worst unprotected gap that I've ever seen is not here in the USA, but in the London Underground, at the Central Line's BANK (of England) Station."... "How nobody is injured or killed at this station never ceases to amaze me."
Because we are used to it - it's been there for 100 years after all!
How true, how true - and there are other sharp curves in the LU as well, like Waterloo (Bakerloo). I was preparing to board the Ealing Broadway-bound Central at Bank, and determined that the gap combined with the tilt of the tube train was too much for my stubby legs, and I opted to board the train further back.
wayne
The largest gaps I've ever seen are on Track 1 at the LIRR Flatbush Avenue terminal. Some of them are easily large enough for a person to fall into.
My grandfather (who is now 98) got his leg stuck in the gap in the 1950's at the IRT Union Square station.
The train started to move for about a second until the conductor saw him and buzzed the train to a halt.. He was treated for a scraped leg and got a settlement from the city.
I was always warned to be careful about not getting stuck in the gap because of his incident.
The scariest gap has to be on the northbound 2/5 @ E. Tremont. A child or small woman could easily slide through it down onto the tracks. I'm surprised nobody's been killed or seriously injured here in recent memory.
The Penn Station gap is pretty reasonable except for a few locations where a crossover is located w/in the legnth of a platform. there are cutouts in the platform edges for the crossign over train to manage the turn. If a door were to open at one of these indentations, there would be a pretty descent gap.
Admiralty, Sai Wan Ho, Shau Kei Wan, University, Mong Kok, Lo Wu and Kowloon Tong in the HK systems are all on pretty sharp curves...and there are legends of people losing shoes in the gaps...especially at Admiralty.
Once I was waiting at a London suburban station (on British Rail as it then was, not the Underground) and being a railfan I waited at the point where the front of the train would stop. I was wearing slip-on, not lace-up, shoes. The train (third-rail electric) pulled in, and the motorman opened his side window, leaned out and looked back along the platform. I stepped into the first door of the train, and as I did so one of my shoes fell off and down the gap on to the track. The motorman saw this happen, laughed, got out of his cab with a hook on the end of a wooden pole, and rescued my shoe for me.
Greetings, all...
Just letting everybody know that the Day Rider and I just made it back safely from Branford. Not counting the 15 minutes to stop for gas, the whole trip from East Haven, CT to Colligswood, NJ only took me 2-1/2 hours via the Cross-Bronx Expressway and George Washington Bridge to the NJ Turnpike. Not bad! And I didn't even need to stop at a Starbucks along the way to stay awake. Gotta love the NJ Turnpike... Forty lanes wide, trucks are segregated, and they write you a ticket if they catch you going less than 90 MPH.
It was great meeting everybody up at Branford, especially those of you who I haven't seen since the Boston trip two years ago (Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn), or who I had never met before at all (Steve-8thAveExpress, Subwaysurf, Selkirk, BingBong, Bill Newkirk, OnTheJuice, Anon-E-Mouse, JohnS, Jeff Rosen, Harry Beck, and a few others whose names escape me), and of course those whom I've already met in the recent past (BMT Man, RIPTA-Hope Tunnel).
And of course, it was nice to finally see Branford for myself after all this time, and to take a spin on the R-9. I can now tell my friends that I've operated a New York City subway train!
Special thanks to the folks at Branford for organizing this thing, and for making all run smoothly despite the weather and the presence of that steam foamer guy and the Darwin Award contenders on the ROW.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Steam foamer? Oh, that explains the steam whistle I heard!
Good to see such a large SubTalk turnout, especially on a wet
holiday weekend. Nice to meet some of you in person for the
first time, like SteveB and Selkirk. Somehow I missed
CI Peter! I was busy most of the day repairing a D3F
compressor, but I did stick my head into the R-9 once or twice,
and gave a quick Mineola tour to some of our Subtalk guests.
Big Lou and John Sparkorski, BMTman and Thurston....good job
handling the railway and piloting our visitors.
Jeff, thanks for the alcolades.
I'm glad you were able to accomodate some of the new members with a Mineola tour. Especially when some of them came from great distances and it would be hard for some to get back to Branford on a regular basis.
Actually, we were spared some notorious foamers due to a New York Harbor Tour that occurred the same day. I heard that some names familiar to us were on that trip...
Jeff ... that steam whistle you kept hearing was me with my "handheld" ... I figured I'd get into the fun for all mindset and when I hand threw switches to keep Sparky's parade'o'streetcars from screwing up the railroad. Heh. After all, we almost had DeKalb going there for most of the afternoon and with the regulars and "Our Gang" doing our thing, everybody got to see the headlights of a conga line, train coming right at them and diverging at the last minute just like the old TA days.
So just for laughs, every time I threw a switch, I played "beat the signal" and blew the whistle as soon as I had the switches moved and pinned. The "regular guests" seem to have just loved it, so I kept at it. If you wanna make that noise in the shop yourself every time you finish a job, power it up and it don't smoke, I noticed they have the same four-throat wooden steam whistle I brought with me in BERA's gift shop. I'll bet it sounds the same. :)
Hey, if life ain't fun every now and then, what's the point in waking up? Moo.
Stuck behind 22W at RED, I did call for the lineup, problem 4 toots on our railroad means your backing up... Hehe..
Disptacher heard me anyway, and just like the TA, made us sit and wait for the lineup into Ave L.
I tell ya, all of that whizbang just made it more real for me. Only thing missing from the experience was dousing the headlights so a train in my face at the platform could see where he was going on the crossover. But ya know what? My TA training screwed me UP on YOUR railroad ... everything I was taught was wrong for Branford. :)
Sorry for nearly making you dump your pants there - I was taught to hold power until a few hundred feet before the cab, near full serv and coast THROUGH the curve ... things are different when there's 9 cars behind yours. But back on the TA, the objective was not to spend much time at slow speed or you'd gum up the railroad and lose time.
That rise was an unpleasant surprise. Also, I was used to feeling the detents on the brake valve - there's supposed to be clicks there so you feel when you're hitting each position in addition to your usual air noises. Very interesting braking though with apply so deep on the turn there. Clearly though, the TA training put me at a disadvantage on YOUR railroad. I like the way yours works better. Gotta SING for your supper at Branford. Bingbong loved it, and without schoolcar to apply bad techniques for Branford, she easily aced it. :)
Funny, I did do that sitting at Ave L, I turned off the white lights eveytime a trolley car went West.
Thurston, did you notice that? I think I didn't on one of your trips >G<.
Yeah, it's not so bad when the train with headlights on is off on an angle, but when you're coming into a stub terminal and the one on the inbound side is lit, ready to go, it can make it hell for the motorperson coming inbound, about to swing over, and vicey-versey for one leaving the inbound track to swing over to the outbound with a train occupying the inbound track. Dead on, those suckers are BRIGHT.
Funny ... when I was climbing up and down, I got several suntans from stepping up in front of the cab side headlight. Them puppies are bright and WARM. :)
But I doubt the headlights bothered anything on the mainline from Avenue L. You guys have a NICE arrangement there. VERY well thought out.
I think I was a pilot on 2001 that trip so I was paying more attention to what the newbee was doing, or not doing.
..."Stuck behind 22W at RED, I did call for the lineup,
problem 4 toots on our railroad means your backing up"...
The Dispatcher upon hearing the signal from RT, didn't expect you
to be doing a reverse movement. Besides, shouldn't you inform
supervision via radio that you are going to do a reverse move?
;| ) Sparky
Hand that man a G-2 and a ceegar! :)
See my response in email. This ain't the subway, we missed the mark to turn the pole (it couldn't turn, would have hit the line pole) so we had to reposition (backwards, forward we would have busted 22E). Since we had the block from 30E to 22E and did not hear of any traffic behind us (passing 30E under rule 504), I didn't know we needed permission to backup.
RT Supervisor,
Well, when you are in ear shot of Dispatch, they would like to
know what's happening, particularly when they hear a whistle they
are not expecting. The blurp of permission, so solly wrong museum.
That's one of the flaws of being qualified in multiple locations.
>G<
;| ) Sparky
So, sometimes a little excess verbage is OK, because the Dispatcher may be a little nervious about what you are doing ... error on the side of caution seems reasonable to me.
BTW, I felt like a truck driver, backing & looking out the side window while seeing this B-I-G rig in back of me < G >
MOOSKY!!!
Cancelling Sunday Church Service and making the trip was not easy but was well worth it all!!! Meeting my friends, poking around and HANDLE TIME!!!!!!! Arnine works a bit differently from what I service but after 'cold feet' became warm, just like my first parachute jump...out the door and suddenly you apply everything you have learned instantaneously. Moving a train is far more fun than being 'in the hole.' CI Peter
Just out of curiousity, which parish do you attend? I know from your previous postings that you're a devout Episcopalian. I'm rather new to the Episcopal Church myself (I was raised Presbyterian), but I've become very active with a small Episcopal parish on the UPenn campus, within spitting distance of the trolley tracks on 40th Street. (I'm hoping to get confirmed into the Episcopal Church sometime within the next few months.) However, whenever I'm in New York City, I rarely pass up the chance to worship at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. Very rarely have I felt the Spirit so profoundly and so consitently as when I'm worshipping in that church. Words can't do it justice.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I *knew* you'd get your yayas ... what surprised me was the absence of current day motorpeople who would have REALLY gotten their yayas off running an Arnine. Manual lapping makes the ride more interesting. Maybe next year. Current day motorpeople would REALLY get a kick ouf of reversed stands and counting off five seconds before the application takes. :)
Kevin,
We have had some current motormen at Branford. Why even Father and
Son have been recruited. One of the students at the Training Class
of 2002, was a TSS. The invitation is open to all, next session for
Sub-Talkers, Sunday, March 30, 2003.
;| ) Sparky
Yeah, met Dave Junior out on the "real" railroad, haven't caught up with Pops yet. Reason I said what I said though is I've got more than a few buddies who are (ahem, kaff) "Train Operators" today and not a one of them "shaped up" ... more fish for the museum and what's down at Branford is *so* different from what they're running today, I just *know* they'll be glad they came up to play if they DO shape up next year. :)
Jeff H.: you didn't find me??? Certainly I would have been happy to lend a hand with a D3.....I do D4s often and there is a whole CI tool kit plus in my trunk of the WB2SGT 'Redbirdmobile.' I'm hoping that circumstances will soon give me a few trips up to do 'inspections.' If only there were a R33 'married pair'....R17 can't be that far in the past for general undercar/carbody/propulsion inspection...just a little TLC 'MAKES TRAINS GO.' CI Peter
>>>Forty lanes wide, trucks are segregated, and they write you a ticket if they catch you going less than 90 MPH. <<<
I *ALWAYS* choose the truck side. Feel safer with the pros.
Nice to have met you.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, you would've been a terror on the highways to normal drivers...LOL!
Glad you arrived safely. You & Anon-E-Mouse had a long drive after a day at Branford.
This is going to be one of those events in my life that I'm going to have fond memories of for a very long time. It seemed like each & everyone of the couple dozen of us or so had a very enjoyable day despite the dampness. Starting with breakfest for some & ending with a bakers dozen of us doing dinner togather.
First thing in the AM we placed the R-9 at "Avenue L" & R-17 in the yard. We now need the mop the floor of the R-17, but that's OK.
The "crew" also had to take turns running the trolleys & doing tours throughout the day as we did get a fair number of other guests. There also was a major, three day, tie replacement project going on that tested the "pilot" and operators metal.
My thanks to Lou for Brooklyn for his advance work on the very nice souvenir "1689 Charter Pass" and his tireless piloting job through out the day. Many of our group got to operate the R-9 for the first time. The car was put to bed at the end of the day none the less for ware, but Lou was very visably tired.
Thanks to the BMTman for the souvenir posters & signs that were a big hit with everyone.
Anon-e-mouse's cake was also a big hit. I particularly liked the effort he went to match the color of the icing to that of the R-9.
I also passed out a small souvenir packet to the out-of-towners amoung the group.
And last but not least my hat is off the JohnS aka Sparky who orchestrated the days events.
As a final note: this day was also good for the museum, we got at least nine new members & fee for the charter will go to the preservation of the cars & the place that we love.
Thurston,
Thanks for the R-17 lesson. It was more than cool to run the car that has a bingbong! :oD
Sorry we made a mess of the floor. I owe you a clean car.
My wife and I were two of those new members. Thanks, to you, Thurtson, and Doug, Sparky, Lou, Anon_e_mouse, Andee and all those who made it a very interesting and fun day (although were weren't able to stay too long due to another commitment later in the day).
And once again I'd like to express my EXTREME gratitude to all for a WONDERFUL day. Special thanks from me go out to Unca Lou for indulging me by leaving me alone with 1689 to wake her up and drag her out. Made my decade! And of course a few runs was also great, but MY big enjoyment was getting her woken up and prepped. Haven't done that since 1971 and there's nothing like that first yawn and extra noises and smells of the wake up call. And a special thanks goes out to Unca Sparky for not KILLING me for all the silliness I was pulling and the contiuing floor show throughout the day.
Sadly, I finally got to see the BMT standard, the SIRT car and some other cars SADLY in need of some tender loving care and rebuilding. Hopefully if we can get some more people interested in Branford, a place that not only has cool rides, but a downright *FUN* attitude among everybody there (I've never seen a Trolley Museum or Rail Museum with people that are anywhere NEAR as nice and as fun as these guys and gals - that's why I JOINED) ... hopefully we can get more people interested, raise some money and some talent and get those other cars up and running as well.
There SHOULD be enough BMT fans here alone to raise the money and put in the elbow grease ... c'mon folks ... how MANY BMT standards ARE there anymore? And if this one doesn't get some attention soon, it's not going to last much longer ...
A WHOPPING thanks, everybody, especially the Branford people for setting it up (and having a working day giving tours to non-foamers at the same time). What an incredible place! I'm glad I found out about it from the board so soon after coming to NYC and getting to be a member.
Are you guys going to do it again next year. If so I will be there, it sound like you all had a great time beside the whether.
Robert
The cars are sitting there waiting :-)
Seriously, this past Sunday all started because 8th Ave Steve said he was going to be in town from Denver & expressed interest in spending some time with his favorite Arnine. He got a few friends interested in chartering the car and found a that there was "crew" happy to participate.
Talk to one of us off-line.
I have to give credit where credit is due. Had it not been for Brighton Exp. Bob, I would have flown in on Monday the 14th. So you can thank him for causing me to adjust my itinerary. I met him on Monday and got a live preview of a full-blown Bob and Fred Show. Those two together are a riot!
It was a privelege and a pleasure to meet so many people who share a common interest.
I joined the museum 22 years too late, but better late than never. Sparky mentioned Nov. 1 as a possible date for next year's Subtalk Day, and if that's the case, I may be able to make it. (UConn has a home game on Oct. 25th, and I am assuming Homecoming will be then.) He mentioned that if the event were held on a Saturday, we'd have the entire line all to ourselves.
To quote Yogi Berra, thanks to everyone for making Subtalk Day necessary.:)
P. S. Dibs on piloting 1689 on an outbound run next time.:)
Sorry to hear that you didn't GET an outbound ... I feel a bit ripped off because I had to dump the train and change ends halfway on MY trips because of W3 screwing up the railroad, but by the time Maintenance of Way cleared the line to the end, I was already whipped from lack of sleep and didn't WANT to operate once the railroad was no longer pooch-screwed ... but yeah, the OUTBOUND run was much better than the inbound only because the crap on the floor didn't keep my seat from dropping to the floor without crushing cables.
Funny about operating Arnines ... you'd DROP the seat, but you'd put your calves into it and run them standing up with the seat on your legs as a stability reference ... I found myself sitting DOWN (which I didn't do at age 20, must be age) but you'd tend to operate with the seat down and stand back against it to operate just so you could FEEL the train, but after several runs, just wanted to sit down while doing it just to savor what Mayor Hylan intended in the carbodsky design. :)
But the inbound end was a pain in the butt with a dead rollsign and other crap on the cab floor. Note, hire car cleaners when we go to Branford, PAY same. :)
Sparky mentioned Nov. 1 as a possible date for next year's
Subtalk Day ...
Hope not... if it is I won't be there :-( (That's Anon_e_mouse Jr.'s birthday... and he doesn't get excited about subway cars, or trolley cars either for that matter.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are always going to be conflicts with someone...It's called LIFE!!!
Check my other post with the suggested dates and why. Keep in
mind all other functions, which occur during April & November.
;| ) Sparky
There are always going to be conflicts with someone...It's called LIFE!!!
Check my other post with the suggested dates and why. Keep in
mind all other functions, which occur during April & November.
;| ) Sparky
Life is....Keeping the Grace everyday. Most of the 180/239th crew is from the 09/17/2001 CI class now and we're stretched over two city blocks but we find a way to come together. Same for this group but surprisingly seperated by hundreds of miles...and together almost everyday by wire. CI Peter
After the resounding sucess of "A Gathering of Subtalkers" on
Sunday, October 13, an encore is being considered for 2003.
To keep everything in proper prospective, two dates were suggested
for a repeat of a "Gathering of SubTalkers @ Branford" for 2003.
Both dates are on Saturdays, when the museum is not open to the
public, so more flexibility without interuption from regularly
scheduled service cars. No guarantee that we would not have to
work about "Maintenance of Way" on either date.
The dates are: Saturday, April 5, 2003. The annual training course should be concluded by then, barring a canceled date for weather in March. If we want this date please contact now, so we do not conflict with the Training Division and we can reserve the date. Alternate date Saturday, April 12, 2003.
Also in consideration is Saturday, November 1, 2003. Next year we
have 5 Saturdays in November, allowing the Track Department more
alternatives in their annual end of season track barage.
This would be on similar conditions as this year, with all members
contributing to the costs and guests subscribing to a membership.
Please email with any suggestions: trolley687@aol.com.
Thank You, ;| ) Sparky
Well, I don't have much of a vote, since I didn't go this year -- but I may want to go next year. However, Saturday is automatically out for any of us who happen to be Sabbath-observant Jews, and I know of at least four of us on this board. I can't promise that I'll come, let alone make promises for the other 3+, but consideration of at least one Sunday would be much appreciated.
David,
Saturdays with the current method of operations is easier in the
schedule of operations at the museum. We are open for operation
from April ~ December. Sundays only in April & November prior to
Thanksgiving. The reason for a Saturday, is to avoid conflicting
with the operating schedule of regular cars. As per your consideration,
let's place Sunday, March 30, 2003 as a suggested date.
Two key members, would be at the museum on Saturday that weekend,
since they are instructors. What I'm trying to do is get away
from doing the next "Gathering" away from an operating
day. This year, as the Operations Supervisor, I had to content
with public operations & maintenance of way. I would like to be
more relaxed next time and also have the oportunity to interface
with other Sub-Talkers. You'll note my absense in most photographs
and lack of commentary in posts. Thanks for your input.
;| ) Sparky
Thank you! Again, I have no idea yet if I'll be able to come, but I've marked it on my calendar for March 30.
At Branford, we try to please all, as much as possible. For without
visitors, members & supporters there would be no BERA or Shore Line
Trolley Museum. From the indications received thus far it's a
GREEN BALL for Sunday, March 30, 2003.
;| ) Sparky
Keep us posted if Nov. 1 is still on as well. I will plan my trip next year accordingly.
Sunday 3/30/03 ... I must put this event on my calendar.
--Mark
I also appreciate the Sunday date. I will really try to be there. Greenberger's driving!
Sparky was out in the mist all that day, but we did get him inside the R-9 in time of cake < G > There is this one great shot of Steve, Nancy, Kevin, Anon-e-mouse & Sparky (they got theirs first, of course ;-)
Seriously, he earned every bit of prase that has been given him.
Amen to THAT! For all the whining about Sparky this and Sparky that, turns out he's a GREAT GUY! Wish I had more TMO's like him in my day.
This is my métier, making the Railway sing. But could not have been
done without the crew that Sunday. My consociate to make handle
time available to all, Big Lou from Brooklyn...docents, Thurston,
BMT Man, Jeff H...also the operators of the day Anon_e_mous,
Peter the Pole, Jeffrey Rosen, Joe Roth (who doesn't own a computer)
assisted by Mr. RT & BMT Man. And to the General Manager of the
Museum, George Boucher for processing the new memberships forthwith.
And to new members Harry Beck [NYCrail.com] &
Larry Fenrick [subway.com.ru]for the photographic memories.
Are we ready for an encore in 2003???
;| ) Sparky
You BETCHA ... That was FUN ... let's do THAT again. :)
Are we ready for an encore in 2003???
I'm already planning on it!
-Larry
Absolutely, positively, yes.
Sabbath observants are OK...I have not been AWOL from my little Church in Hope, New Jersey for thirteen years and considering the number of times Ministers in that time period have been absent for personal reasons, not once have ever been asked NOT to attend something outside of the Church on a Sunday. I am a 'bulwark' of early morning Sunday Service, often being alone with my mother and the Minister at 8AM service...I do and serve every Sunday just like I do on the job. Sure, Saturdays may not be very active and we could have the place to ourselves but Sundays at Branford in good weather can be very busy and the best time to share and Give Grace. CI Peter
Ummmmm....if the economy is better by then and people find they can afford the $$$, why not...both?
April 12 and November 1?
This may help get more folks involved, if you can't make one, go for the other.....
After some quickie input on this, the dates in contention now,
Sunday, March 30 and Saturday, November 1. That offers more
flexibility for all and helps the Operations Supervisor maintain
his sanity. And he may also be able to obtain a crack at the
controls, dependent on which cars are used. >G<
;| ) Sparky
I'll vote for 30 March, and certainly I don't have any objection to doing it again on 01 November, even though I personally would not be able to attend on that particular date.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
November 1 would work for me. I would simply flipflop my traditional itinerary and attend Homecoming first, then stay in NYC the following week and head up to Branford afterwards. I won't know for sure if Homecoming is on Oct. 25 until February or March, but they've held it in October since 1990. It can get very cold in November.
Steve,
November 1 is still in contention. The weather may be cold, but
our subway cars are heated. Besides in the begining of November,
I prepare for seasons end. The last few seasons,
I Dispatched/Operated for "Santa on the Trolley" on Saturdays,
post Thanksgiving. That's four Saturdays, so I can survive foamers
in early November. It's just one less obstacle to contend with,
no public operations.
;| ) Sparky
Good! I will plan accordingly once 11/1 becomes an official go or no-go.
I'd go for BOTH ... after all, this is a HANDLE TIME thingy. Once a year ain't enough. :)
This way we can celebrate 1227's 100th birthday as well as run something else on the other date with more "normal" control stands. I'd even be willing to run a SMEE again. After all 6688 is sorta like a miniature R32. (grin)
Well, any date would be good with me...however, if we run into rainy weather we might have to substitute 1227 for a more foul-weather friendly rapid transit car...but that's Sparky's Department...
When does 6688 get its paint job?
When can you tell me the temp will be over 60F?? >G<
Next spring looks like.
Guess so....I didn't know what th eparameters are for the paint.
Let's hope for an early spring so it can get done sooner, maybe it could serve as March 30's "rain train".....
Feh ... you just want more handle time on 6688 ... yard moves and spotting SMEE trains are fun and all, but she's a trotter and I just KNOW you want to see how fast you can go before she tips. :)
I hear 6688 can really gallop when you wrap it.:)
She's just about to when you reach EOT & have to back off :-(
As we move further in time, her just being able to move will be something special ... all those poor Red Birds who don't know how to swim :-(
Yeah, while I was out on 1689 with you waking her up, unsticking the doors and prepping her, Nancy was out with Lou on 6688 and Nancy moved her. She did note that 6688 really wanted to take off and had to restrain her. Nancy (bingbong) was so impressed by how quickly I moved my butt onto 1689 as soon as the barn door opened, she decided to adopt the redbird and Unca Lou obliged. Nancy got to run TWO trains. The grin on the mug was priceless. :)
And Uncle Lou cleaned up after you folks last week-end < G >
Seriously Doug, Lou & I spent about half a day getting dirty on various tasks, one of which was a mop job for the floor of 6688.
We owe you another clean car then. AT LEAST ... yeah, it was mighty mighty muddy that day, 1689 also got a dose but then you know how those floors are, probably isn't as obvious. Car cleaning IS an important part of a run, sorry we were running out of time and light before the WHOLE job was over. :(
Maybe I can get some handle time on 6688 someday. From what I've heard, its brake valve is sensitive, kind of like the power brakes found on GM cars from the early 70s.
Did Nancy get to run 6688 in parallel at all? I know I felt 1689 accelerate when I had it in parallel for a brief moment.
[6688 ... From what I've heard, its brake valve is sensitive ...]
It's a piece of cake with a little practice. I like them, because you can take a little nip & drag it to bring your speed down ... just like a trolley < G >
[Did Nancy get to run 6688 in parallel ?]
Not in the yard limit you don't !
Seriously, it just moved from out back to the front of yard area, then she was put away again when the mist turned into rain.
I saw it being moved out of the barn while Kevin was bringing 1689 up to snuff. Wasn't sure if they took it out onto the mainline.
Nope, never did any mainline, the railroad was more than gummed up enough with W3 out there causing several of 1689's trips to be ABD'd halfway out. 6688 just did a couple of yard moves to be lit up and displayed on the tarmac. Nancy would have LOVED to let her gallop of course, but she was merely out to show off the excellent work Stef, the Daves, Thurston and others did on her and showing how SERIOUS the folks at Branford are about maintaining New York's Finest (railcars).
That was the first time I was aboard 6688. I saw it at the museum before, but only from the outside. It looks great, even in primer. Of course, I had a blast working the doors!
You and your ding dang doors ... what y'all need is a rolling, sliding closet door so you can open and closeup all the bing bong day. I'll even chip in for a doorbell so you can do it up. :)
Do you have sliding doors at home?
I can get Jeff H. to make you his ding dong machine that he installed on 6688 (it was installed as a pratical joke for the foamers) for your patio doors if you want. Jeff could make a nice profit making ding dong boxes.
Actually, no ... but we *DO* have a "trick doorknob" that comes out in your hand if you try to leave. DOES go right back in and work of course. :)
You DO realize once Nancy ("bingbong") reads this, we'll be replacing the old Emerson/NuTone chime on the wall with something "more appropriate" since I'm the "employee" and SHE'S the "foamer" ... now see what you've done? You're gonna SUFFER for this, son. Heh.
So tell me ... what was the trick with da badabing, badabong on 6688? I did all my R32 rituals, threw key, did the faucet handles, even mooed into the PA for the whole CAR to wonder "what's HIS malfunction and where's my gotdamm G-2 to write him up?" What was da trick with da bingidybong? I couldn't work it! :(
And yes, we'll take two. And if there's a homeball laying around you guys don't want, it'd be real neat on my private road up the hill here. I'll even mount a call-on so's they could bingadabong in our parking lot. Where do I sign, who do I make the check out to? :)
Yes, please. Bingbong wants a bingbong box. Replacing the doorbell with a proper bingbong sounds like a terrific idea, as does the homeball, for our home. Seroiusly, what does become of the signals once they are replaced? Surely every signal on the line isn't from the turn of the (last)century? How would one go about getting one to replace, say, the typical tacky lastern/post light on their front yard?
Kev, there should be plenty o' signals available with all the signal replacement work on the Canarsie, and West End lines (put it on your Santa List...) :)
I would, but Santa keeps stiffing me. I gotta nail some Homey the Clown socks on my mantle this year. Seriously, if you saw our little substation here and the terrain, homeballs would be VERY much at home here, preserved nicely and maintained. Just gotta rig the land yacht with tripcocks. :)
But how do you actually go about *getting* one?
I promise to give it a new paint job, fresh wiring, and a happy loving home! :o)
Homeball and two automatics please. :)
Did you want fries with that, sir?:)
As long as they're fried in TA monkey oil. :)
Or journal grease.:)
Nah, I go for the blue PLATE special, not the blue SMOKE special. :)
I'll click to that.:)
Every morning I come into 239th and I catch Santa Claus from the PM crew. "Hey Santa Claus, my friends need a R33 married pair for Christmas," I ask. Yah nevah know when ya prayers are answered.
My Faith is very strong and persistant. CI Peter
We'd be willing to settle for that triple-banger red over green with call-on from near 180th Street ... I'm sure a doubled up shoe paddle would be enough to loosen it from the structure. Heh. Nothing says "home" like a "home ball" around these parts. :)
I LOVED the bingbong on 6688!!! Please *don't* remove it, put a switch in so it can be disabled should someone not want the bingbong. Something there should bingbong until the day comes when the 44s are heading for museum service.....
There must be a switch for it now because I didn't hear it while working the doors. Neither did Kevin.
Yeah, found out that it was a TRICK SWITCH under the panel that was turned off. Apparently a practical joke to screw with us 'talkers. Genuine R44 doorbanger though in da box. Ain't it GREAT though being involved with a transit museum that has a sense of HUMOR?!?!?! Wow.
Too bad the wheel speed dector wasn't working :-(
Now now, I noticed it was 90# track and behaved NICELY within the 1970's guidelines for wrecked equipment and trashed track. Yeah, i admit to speeding on the run, the geese LOVED it, I saw that bulge in Steve's pants when I got 1689 to hit his freaking high note, also saw Unca Lou turn white, but then we all got to see that his bloodstream was under pressure just like the brakepipe on 1689. :)
I would have BEAT the damned WD coming into Avenue "L" since I was facing points coming in ANYWAY. The OUTBOUND trip is MUCH more fun than the inbound. Heh.
Now you know why I wanted to do an outbound run. Oh well, maybe next time...:)
Didn't know that ... sorry to hear it. I thought you'd done one. Mine were shorties except for the last one I did with W3 down the road. It was more fun for me easing her up to the worktrain, more of a challenge though that stop for da traffic cone required a bit tighter of a stop. Still, having W3 in my face sorta resolved that little situation I had at CIY once - THIS time the Arnine stopped with room to spare. :)
I would love to rig up a pair of sliding doors with pneumatic air pistons complete with trigger box to open and close them.:)
Steve,
When I was a kid, I rigged up a control panel to replicate the door control panel of a BMT Standard.
I used a cigar box, and cut some empty wooden spools in half to serve as buttons. My dad gave me an old skeleton key, and I cut the proper hole for it. I painted the cigar box olive drab, and the half spools black. I mounted the whole thing alongside the gate from our back yard to the alley. I always had problems accepting the fact that our back yard gate swung open instead of sliding open.
This whole project came about when I decided that a 11 year old could not build a set of gate car gates.
I found that a Bic Clic pen when clicked on a desk top makes virtually the same sound as an R-9 trigger cap.
I didn't go as far as you did, but I did draw R-32 sign boxes on my textbook covers and filled in the slots with my name and subject.
You'd never leave the house! :)
Moo.:)
I actually thought about rigging up a set of R-1/9 door leaves once after taking a prewar E train from 42nd St. to 5th Ave. Maybe the Transit Museum could sell me that pneumatic door circuit they have on display on the platform.:)
Yeah, Nancy and I were chuckling about getting a pair of doors and door engine for the patio door up here ... but then again, if someone decided to play with them during the winter, they'd have to chip us off the floor. :)
You can always keep the breaker off.:) Not to mention the drum switch. Moo.
Actually, subway car doors are MIGHTY leaky as far as weather goes. Since we often get down below -20F here, that's not such a bright idea for an exterior door. But if they were mounted say, in the company bar, there'd be too much pressure for them to make "Star Trek" noises as they moved. Hmmm. Dilemma. Need to form study group. :)
I didn't get a shot at 6688, I was too busy getting my yayas on 1689. Nancy ran it, but I'd bet only in bumps in switching mode since it was just a couple of yard moves. She did notice that the brakes are "grabby" on the car, then again, so was 1689. You learn to apply a little, watch your needle if you can, and ease off before it gets too grabby. Then again, modern IRT cars always had that tendency since the idea was to go and stop, and the faster you did both, the more TPH you could maintain. Wasn't like the IND and BMT with "luxury spacing." :)
But SMEE's are a LOT easier to operate than the old AMUE's, almost like driving a bus with hand controls.
>>>"You learn to apply a little, watch your needle if you can, and ease off before it gets too grabby."<<<
For the many that haven't had the pleasure, being a Seashore operator
that's the way the Boston Streetcars are operated. Eastern Mass 4387 and Boston Elevated 5821, you put the geese in front with you fur shure. Those puppies grab tight.
>>>"Then again, modern IRT cars always had that tendency since the idea was to go and stop, and the faster you did both, the more TPH you could maintain."<<<
I don't think so much on the R33/R36 WF cars, but I rode the R12/R14s
on the Flushing Line. They was stop and go, oh yeah. The doors
were open and then you saw last inches before they stoped motioning.
Hey us guys with the snow on the roof have recollections, as we rode them.
;-) Sparky
And a few of us RAN them. :)
Wish you had some relief down there on the ground for a trip or two with me on 1689. Sure I could have eased off and done a wimpy stop, but I had a reputation to maintain among the folks here and took every opportunity to operate the way you remembered. The objective was to see how tightly screwed down the "straps" were since the geese were gonna twirl when I stopped. A couple of the other guys DID manage to get folks to kiss the bulkhead, heh ... I eased off a bit from that just to let them know that the train was GONNA stop. It was a blast!
Frickin' TA ruined everything with those Buster Brown shoes stuck on the cylinders that they use today. It was GREAT running a train that was still wearing combat boots. :)
If R-17 6688 is anything close to R26/R29/R33, we can check the brake riggings, automatic and manual slack adjusters, air brake '5' wire/application/release. This run doesn't crank...if 6688 has dynamic braking, will hardly ever be engaged. R9 # 1689 has no dynamic braking or self-lapping brake controller...what you feel in your hand is what you have. Cast metal shoes make a difference too...they appear loose, slip and slide, then lock up. Selkirk TMO is a better judge than I...the giant cereal box I get composition brake shoes out of plasters the Surgeon Generals warning: NOT to be used in place of cast metal brake shoes! My trainsets are clearly marked: J14CSB Brake Relay. Gimmick light in the bag. CI Peter
Heh. Well, you'll be relieved to know the 17's are even simpler as you'll get a chance to see one of these days in Branford's pit. Much easier than you think from what I've been told by a guy who used to do them. And yeah, Arnines keep you honest - didn't need signs telling you "Always be in CONTROL of your train" ... Arnines always reminded you of that. :)
When I moved 6688, it was a yard move, we had to put her away because of the rain. :o( The brakes were grabby, especially compared to 1689. I'm sure it's something that can be mastered with...more practice....:o)
Why not both indeed !
This "charter" was a lot of fun for those who participated & it made a little money for the museum, so it was a win win. Those of us who favor this part of the collection would be happy to take a bunch of Subtalkers for a ride, so just ask.
When you charter 1227 you already get TWO for the price of one...(remember Money Car "G"'s current 'maritial status'...;)
Yes, weather permitting, we will feature a pair of woodies on
Sunday, March 30, 2003 which includes the oldest surviving
Elevated Car in the World, Manhattan #41 affectionately know
to Branfordites as car G. And representing the City of Brooklyn,
Car 1227 in its centennial of service.
;| ) Sparky
Branford's guaranteeing Subtalkers woodies? My Gawd, man ... watch your verbosity! Good thing Nancy and I already blessed the cab. :)
Yes, woodies ... This TMO, who is basically a streetcar person
had the pleasure of riding them in service in his youth. Even
though he is the same age as 1689 and they served his homeline
the "GG", not the abortion operating today known as the (G),
I have this fetish for the gate cars. Elevated or Surface.
;| ) Sparky
I wonder if Karl B has a gate car fetish, too.:)
Oh he does, that's for cretain.
And me too now. Never rode them in service, but I do love how 1227 just seems to glide along down the ROW.
But Mr. T you HAVE ridden on gate cars in service...albeit modified, but the Q's of the Mrytle Ave. El were merely 'dressed up' Gate cars.
OK, you're right I rode in a dirty, old, dark gate car without the gate ... I was much younger then ... NOW I realize it was something significant that I did one night after school (Brooklyn Poly Tech).
You can bet your timpani on that! :-)
Heh. Nancy's even more into the Gate cars than BigEdIRTmanL ... you should have seen them here going back and forth about them. And yes, Church to Forest Hills was almost a railroad ... it's looking moer and more like the Times Square shuttle on the GG these days with just a few more stops. :(
How about that, what a small World. At the UConn game my nephew was playing a few tunes for you in the Marching Band !
And I played in the Alumni Band! Luckily the snare drum chops are still there, for the most part.
Temple beat us, 38-24.
>>it sound like you all had a great time beside the whether.<<
Yes, the weather was depressing. But we all provided our own sunshine in the form fun and good cheer. We all (except for CI Peter) broke for lunch about 1:30PM and headed to Wendy's. We all moved the tables to make one long banquet table. Dou brought a take out to Lou from Brooklyn.
As far as weather goes, the best time to be up at Branford is when the weather turns sunny, dry, cool and when the leaves along the ROW put on their autumn colors. The red,yellow and orange leaves compliments any vintage equipment running down that ROW.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>it sound like you all had a great time beside the whether.<<
Yes, the weather was depressing. But we all provided our own sunshine in the form fun and good cheer. We all (except for CI Peter) broke for lunch about 1:30PM and headed to Wendy's. We all moved the tables to make one long banquet table. Doug brought a take out to Lou from Brooklyn.
As far as weather goes, the best time to be up at Branford is when the weather turns sunny, dry, cool and when the leaves along the ROW put on their autumn colors. The red,yellow and orange leaves compliments any vintage equipment running down that ROW.
Bill "Newkirk"
Trains run in all KINDS of weather! And I tell ya, between the wet rails and the leaves, it was JUST like working the D train all over again. And they've got the Arnine in such GREAT shape that I was wheel slipping and I didn't even HEAR it. Oh yeah, we're going to do it again next year and there's nothing in the world like an Arnine for folks running the toasters on wheels THESE days. It's a WHOLE 'nuther world. :)
The weather makes for really excellent pictures.
The lighting is even, and the mist and rain make for mysterious vistas,
and the wet surfaces make for vivid colors.
Elias
Had a blast... I watched your taillights disappear in the distance and wondered out loud to my passenger (Pete the Pole - NJCoastExp here on SubTalk) if you were going to make it back to Philly before I got him home to South Amboy (let alone myself to Eatontown). Well... from the timestamp on your post you must have made it back before I got to Eatontown, since I was still unloading my truck at that time... also glad to know it wasn't you that we saw having a discussion with a pair of New York State troopers on the GSP extension... it was a silver Firebird of about the same vintage as yours and it had Illinois plates. Come on up again when you get the chance!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While many SubTalkers were at Branford this past weekend, I spent Saturday at Rockhill Furnace and Orbisonia, PA. Keystone Pete's Rockhill Trolley Museum keeps getting better and better. My photos of Saturday's sightings are on my Webshots >Rockhill Trolley Museum, Pennsylvania page, bottom half of the page. Last year's shots constitute the top half of the page.
Great shots, Bob! All the pictures you post are a joy to see.
It's very nice to see so many old cars in such fine shape !
Thanks for sharing.
Bob,
Thanks for the coverage and kind words about another location
under wire that I'm associated with. Would have been with you
on Saturday, if I didn't have to harmonize for the boyz at BERA.
Will we see you on Route 23 trip on the 27th?
;| ) Sparky
I didn't buy a ticket for the Route 23 trip on the 27th, but if I hear that a second car is running, I'll try to make it.
Bob
Bob,
Big Lou & I is a going.
;| ) Sparky
Big Lou & I is a going.
Sparkski,
Weekends are busy at home for the next couple months, but I'll try to make the trip. I'm a sucker for PCCs (and any trolley, for that matter), and riding with Lou and you would be icing on the cake. Keystone Pete was on the Route 23 trip that I rode last Spring.
Here are some examples of what you can expect, depending on whether one car or two cars are used.
ChuchuBob, Neato architecture, we'll be looking forward to seeing
besides riding a PCC or two.
For those not in the know visit upcoming events on this website.
;| ) Sparky
State College is halfway through Pa. I balked at the drive up 95 to East haven, broke 100 MPH three times to make the breakfast. Serious driving...even from I-80 exit 12 in Hopeless, New Jersey.
CI Peter
I just read this Times Herald news article about SEPTA's Cross-County Metro porject. While I like the idea of a peripheral rail line crossing the northern suburbs of Philadelphia, I absolutely could not believe what I was reading when the article stated that the powers-that-be were looking to use the same "metro rail" idea that made the Scuylkill Valley Metro project so impractical and unfundable. Did the planners learn nothing from the failure of SVM to secur federal funding? I really hope there's something here I'm missing! If there is don't hesitate to tell me.
Mark
No, you're not missing anything. The Cross-County would take advantage of a strategic rail corridor (the ex-Pennsy line which parallels the PA Turnpike, for the most part), but the assumption is that people want to actually travel along this corridor on transit. While the corridor is a stone's throw from several Phila suburban attractions and employment centers, the 'stone's throw' will still need to be spanned by bus connections (e.g. King of Prussia Mall/Court, Fort Washington, Willow Grove) since the rail line doesn't get close enough to the centers.
SEPTA hasn't really done its homework on this one. Yes, there are lots of suburb-to-suburb commuters, almost all of them in their own cars, and almost all of them losing time due to congestion. If they can be enticed from their cars, the Metro will work. But, this will often involve a bus to rail to bus trip one way (and the buses will be on the same congested roads). In the transit field, a two-seat ride is not desirable to attract riders. How will a three-seat ride do?
Unfortunately, the SVM and the Cross-County are detracting from the Roosevelt Blvd line and other viable Regional Rail extensions (Wawa/ West Chester and even Newtown) where the ridership projections show the worthiness. To me, Cross-County has always been a way for SEPTA to show its commitment to suburban mobility, even though many of the Frontier Division bus lines run with less than half loads in the off-peak.
"SEPTA hasn't really done its homework on this one. Yes, there are lots of suburb-to-suburb commuters, almost all of them in their own cars, and almost all of them losing time due to congestion. If they can be enticed from their cars, the Metro will work. But, this will often involve a bus to rail to bus trip one way (and the buses will be on the same congested roads). In the transit field, a two-seat ride is not desirable to attract riders. How will a three-seat ride do? "
Don't blame SEPTA entirely for this one. Cross-County Metro was part of the political price SEPTA had to pay to get suburban counties behind the Schulkill Valley Metro. The Schuylkill Valley Metro, if cut back substantially, loses political support due to the suburban commissioners' priorities.
For all its problems, MTA does have one advantage (besides a larger budget): its expansion projects do serve demand.
I see your point, but I also saw SEPTA's studies on the Cross-County. The numbers don't support rail (they hardly support bus). Unfortunately SEPTA has to play the political games (and almost always this works against the 85% of its ridership that uses City Transit). There is also a tie between Cross-County and the proposed extension of Route 100 to King of Prussia. Unfortunately (again), this extension makes a lot of sense, and increases the utility of Route 100 greatly, but as long as Cross-County is dragging it down, it might not make it 'out of the box'. SEPTA gaffed a little on this one also, as the larger-than-needed N5 car purchase was to support the K of P spur. SEPTA appears to be moving on the spur separately at this point.
Agreed.
Gee, these studies are hard to find. Can you give a summary of the ridership figures?
I don't recall exact figures, but SEPTA was projecting about 10-12,000 initial riders per day in the corridor. That's hardly ridership that justifies rail investment - it's not even a good bus line on the SEPTA system (the combined 124/125 King of Prussia routes have about 15,000 daily riders, by comparison).
Also by comparison, the Northeast Metro (Roosevelt Blvd) is projected to have about 95,000 initial daily riders for the rapid transit options. While this sounds impressive, SEPTA dismisses it as 'displaced Frankford El trips'. Admittedly, many of these are just that, but it also represents (1) shorter bus rides for Northeast commuters (many of whom have to endure l-o-n-g bus trips just to get to Frankford and get on the El and (2) opened capacity for additional El riders in the closer-in stations. If you ride the El today you find that 75-80% of the Frankford side riders leaving Center City are destined for the last two stops (Arrott and Frankford Terminals). The 10-12 K Cross-County riders almost all represent new transit users, since no service exists in much of the Cross-County corridor at present.
The Cross-County studies are available, probably at local libraries. While the Schuylkill Valley info has a website, Cross-County info is not as readily available. There is little wonder why this is.
If any of you want to speak to #4 Sea Beach Fred, just dial (212) PEnnsylvania 6-5000. He'll be there until Tuesday October 15th.
#3 West End Jeff
You young whippersnappers with your 7-digit dial and those newfangled area codes!
Well i guess the emails,and the lack of people watching full frontal fashion.Thats right turn METRO ON WEEKNIGHTS AT 11:00PM.Saw it last night.
BACK IN THE MIX
AML
I think it may come on at 7 PM, and repeats at 1 AM as well. However, the shows that I've seen are copyrighted in 2001; not sure if new episodes will be made. -Nick
Yup last night it came on at 10:30 and 1:30.But i saw all these epsidoes.I saw every one.
A.M.L
WE WILL DELIVER
The Post has a brief story today on the latest subway surfer injury. Thise one got knocked off and then run over by an train at the 181st St. station. The interesting thing here is instead of the victim being some teen out for a "joyride," this guy is (or was by now, considering his injuries) 35 years old. Age obviously did not impart wisdom into this individual.
Whatta dummy ! Didn't he realize that a speeding subway train generally operates in a confined area (low clearence) ? And at 35 years of age, he should know better.
DOUBLE DARWIN AWARD !
Whatta dummy ! Didn't he realize that a speeding subway train generally operates in a confined area (low clearence) ? And at 35 years of age, he should know better.
DOUBLE DARWIN AWARD !
Most likely only a partial Darwin Award. At age 35, the subway surfer probably has contributed to the human gene pool. As a result, there would not have been a full Darwinian situation even if he hadn't survived the incident.
Of course, the surfer may still produce more offspring, a potentiality which could continue for decades (e.g. Tony Randall). As a result, if he had perished we could have had a partial Darwin Award.
I think the "Darwin Award" coinage has been done to death. I prefer "Stupid Human Tricks" a homage to David Letterman's "Stupid Pet Tricks".
This guy certainly is up in the running for "Stupid Human Trick Award Winner for 2002".
Of course, the surfer may still produce more offspring, a potentiality which could continue for decades
As many of you may have already guessed, I'm a strong advocate of Evolution In Action. I suspect that if Laughing Boy survives being clunked on the head and run over by a train, his various extremities will be disfigured enough to prevent any potential mate from getting within a light year of his dangly bits. With any luck, the "don't surf on subway cars gene" will die off with his line. That said, if he survives, he *is* likely to become quite wealthy at the TA's expense, so you never know who may be chasing that ambulance....
Looking at the Oct. 2002 picture Bill's calendar, I suspect I may be looking at the scene of the potential gene-pool-cleansing.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
>>With any luck, the "don't surf on subway cars gene" will die off with his line. <<
You're too optimistic... I believe the human gene pool is thoroughly dappled with said gene. Remember Preparation H.
Another one... My friend's wife worked for a pharmaceutical company. One day they receive a call from an irate customer complaining about the formulation of one of their products. She is screaming, "These suppositories taste terrible!"
What's a bit strange is that the ceiling at 181st is very high.
It's one of the overpasses that did him in:
He didn't know when to jump...
Hopefully he hit the closed overpass. Then I can say "at least that overpass is good for something." :)
Good? Thanks to the overpass, service was probably messed up for hours.
That's why there's the A train. The alternative for when people do stupid things.
Unless you happen to be stuck in the train that our now-six-inches-shorter friend was riding on. Or the one stuck behind it, or the one behind that...
It's also a solid 10 minute walk between 8th ave and Broadway for a good stretch above 96th street, though neighborhoods you might not want to talk alone through at 2:40 am.
Yeah I know. I'm always causing trouble. Just not as much trouble as other people here :)
---Brian
http://www.bianweinberg.com/trains
Yeah I know. I'm always causing trouble. Just not as much trouble as other people here :)
---Brian
http://www.bianweinberg.com/trains
Just how much more trouble might you cause if you spelled your website correctly?
< ducking >
Actually, it's a good site, all kidding aside.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Hmmmm, so that's why I kept getting the "page can't be displayed" message.
Could someone explain what is up to this 'Darwin' thing? I've seen it used and referenced several times on this board and I never understood it. Thanks.
The reference is a derogatory one - ie, if a "stupid" person kills himself/herself through stupidity before passing his/her genes on to the next generation (having a child) then that person wins, posthumously, the Darwin Award because the next generaton has been spared a "stupid" child. The reference made is to Charles Darwin, originator of the prevailing theory explanation the evolution of species.
It's a very derogatory and cruel use, really, with no basis in reality - but it is one of the ways humans use macabre humor to deal with tragedy, albeit often in poor taste.
I see, thank you.
More likely, it's a reference to the actual Darwin Awards.
"More likely, it's a reference to the actual Darwin Awards"
Which conform exactly to the explanation I provided.
Ron,
An excellent description. I would advise CPCTC to visit www.darwinawards.com
I have the book, written by Wendy Northcut, It is hilarious.
Peace,
ANDEE
I figure I'll work for about 10 years on winning a Nobel Prize.
Failing that, I'll work on an Ig-Nobel Prize.
Failing that, the Darwin award.
If somehow I fail at getting a Darwin, I'll go back to working on the Nobel... lather rinse repeat.
The reference is a derogatory one - ie, if a "stupid" person kills himself/herself through stupidity before passing his/her genes on to the next generation
Just to clarify, the person need not be a stupid per se--just the act that jettisons him/her out of the gene pool is an act of terminal stupidity.
I don't find it cruel or callous in any way. It's just nature's way of finding someone guilty of commiting a Capitallly Stupid Act. To quote a fellow follower of this philosophy:
"You are here because your ancestors' genes won through trials you
cannot even imagine; and in one final act of superlative, monumental
and quintessential stupidity, you stop the line dead in its tracks.
Game over. Thanks for playing. Don't let the coffin lid hit you on the
arse on the way in."
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
A little levity at the time of tragedy blunts the impact of the event and permits those who live, a moment to step back from the horror, and thus not be overwelmed.
For some, the "Darwin Awards" provide such a moment, for others it just upsets them all the more. I have seen enough death, and even brains poured out on the highway (that one wasn't wearing a seat belt, which WOULD have saved his life, for the cab of his truck was undamaged) that I for one at least, appreciate the chance to step back from reality with a wry sense of humor.
Elias
That's what it does.
There is no age limit on stupidity.
Had too much time on his hands!! Now his time, unfortunately, has been cut short!! Sheer stupidity indeed!!
Somebody call the darwin awards people - I think this guy can get an honorable mention. Unless the train relieved him of his jewels in which case he's up for the full blown award..
Geez, I was on the northbound #1 last night, getting on at South Ferry at about 11:35 - this guy must've been on the 6th train or so after the one I was on. Luckily I ride *in* the train - there seems to be less wind, to quote george carlin :)
I remember watching a movie a while back where the good guy and the bad guy were fighting on the roof of a train. The good guy ducks down and THWAP! a beam takes the bad guy's head off! Actually I've seen a couple movies that end like that.
<>
Would that have been "Speed"?
That could have been one of them... ahh yes now I remember Dennis Hopper's head... THWAP! as Keanu Reaves in a truly compelling Academy award performance ducks down in the nick of time.
It was 2:40 A.M. Sunday morning/Saturday night. From what I hear he jumped on the train from the overpass and got knocked off as the train went North and the ceiling lowers.
181st is one of the tall stations in the Washington heights tunnel, with an overpass to get from one platform to the other, isn't it?
The high arched ceiling is not the whole length of the station.
>>The high arched ceiling is not the whole length of the station. <<
Good to know should I ever decide to try subway surfing and remain 5'9" :)
Sounds like a candidate for the "Max Headroom " oak leaf cluster.
"Re: Return Of JFK Express?" <<< Please disregard the title of my post, my browser saved the title of my last post and inadvertently posted it with my message. Please disregard the title of my post!! Hey I'm still a little tired!! lol :-)
<<< Please disregard the title of my post, my browser saved the title of my last post and inadvertently posted it with my message. Please disregard the title of my post!!
So you too are using Netscape 7.0 eh?
Go to the prefrences page, under privacy and security, and uncheck the "remember passwords" box. That will end that problem.
Elias
HERE IS THE NEWS' VERSION OF THE STORY which states he had consumed a significant amount of joy juice.
Peace,
ANDEE
The very first 12-9 I had to respond to occurred at 181 St. on the #1 line and it was also a person riding on the roof of a train. That time, the person was crushed to the roof instead of being knocked off. You'd think the MTA would have learned its lesson and would have posted warning decals on the roof of every subway car in the system.
BTW: Please do not use the term "Darwin Award". We wouldn't want to wake the "young & the restless" one.
The very first 12-9 I had to respond to occurred at 181 St. on the #1 line and it was also a person riding on the roof of a train.
It seems that the station at 181st attracts the dumbness of people. I would assume anyone with a brain could see that if you are riding on top of a train, and a train goes into the tunnel at the end of a station, an the ceiling is no longer high at that point, that you will hit the wall. It's basic "part A fits or doesn't fit into part B" knowledge. It's amazing that a 35 year old hasn't picked up those basic skills yet.
"You'd think the MTA would have learned its lesson and would have posted warning decals on the roof of every subway car in the system."
You mean the one that says, "No skateboards or bikes allowed?"
:0)
You'd think the MTA would have learned its lesson and would have posted warning decals on the roof of every subway car in the system.
TD, stop giving the lawyers their talking points.
Besides, to satisfy all legal requirements, the MTA would probably have to post decals in English and Spanish ... and with a pictogram of a "surfer" inside a red circle with a slash line across it, for those who might speak another language.
>>> The very first 12-9 I had to respond to occurred at 181 St. on the #1 line and it was also a person riding on the roof of a train. That time, the person was crushed to the roof instead of being knocked off. <<<
Not really a righteous 12-9 since it was train under passenger instead of vice-versa. :-)
Tom
But you know that won't work worth a damn. In fact putting a sign that says something's forbidden only encourages them to do it more... "hey duuuude, this thing says we can't surf on top of the train. let's do that!"
We live in a world where tubes of Preparation H contain warnings that say Not For Oral Use. Yet we live in a world where someone would apply Preparation H orally *because of*, not *in spite of*, the warnings. Ok bad example, who would think it's cool to use Preparation H orally.
How about cigarette warning labels? Have you ever met a person who bought a pack of cigarettes, having smoked for 20 years, and sees this warning message and suddenly decides to quit smoking then and there?
Geez, I'm in a ranting mood tonight... :(
How about cigarette warning labels? Have you ever met a person who bought a pack of cigarettes, having smoked for 20 years, and sees this warning message and suddenly decides to quit smoking then and there?
Just a side-note on warning labels. If you think we have a lot of warnings on cigarette packs here, someone I know who smokes came back from Canada, and Canada has the entire pack covered with warnings, with different discouraging photos on each pack - like a photo of a dead fetus! I'm not kidding!
I'd probably start buying cigarettes just to see the cool pictures! And with that whole pile of cigarette packages piling up in the corner, I might be induced to take up smoking...
Ok bad example, who would think it's cool to use Preparation H orally
Only a real a$$#ole
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Laughing my a$$#ole off!!!
Only in subtalk would I get a response to a post like that... :)
In Hollywood, it's an open secret that Preparation H is used around the eyes to shrink bags and help wrinkles disappear.
In Hollywood, it's an open secret that Preparation H is used around the eyes to shrink bags and help wrinkles disappear.
Drug addicts are said to use it to conceal needle marks.
Used to be a joke about the moron who brushed his teeth with Prep. H and shrunk his gums. hahahhahaha
'Conce wire' is much more appropriate than the stupid decals we apply to the doors. CI Peter
Too bad that he didn't remove himself from the gene pool like most other subway "surfers". This way a generation of subway "surfers" will not be born.
#3 West End Jeff
Well the R-110B is the proud logo for NYCTA, now alot of people wonder why a prototype car which very few people know of, is on the logo for the subway system, and I think its because its probably the nicest looking subway car model, it doesnt have that all black front, but a good mix of them both with the Digital Local/ Express Display really makes it look cool, the inside of the car is very nice, made to look comfortable. So the MTA has a very good reason to have it the posterboy of the Subways, its one of the nicest looking subway cars around.
You are right. See here, right from the MTA website:
Is a photo update necessary?
Maybe MTH will come out with a set of them ?
Perchance right before the End of Time?
I just visited the Amtrak website to check out the Acela Express schedules on October 28. I discovered that on weekdays:
(1) The number of roundtrips between Boston and New York is still remained at nine.
(2) The number of roundtrips between NY and Washington dropped from 16 to 12. Train numbers 2103, 2181, 2163, 2115, 2180, 2162, 2182, and 2118 are dropped.
(3) There are 6 Metroliner roundtrips between NY and Washington.
Based on the new schedule, at least 12 AE trainsets are required to run during weekdays. Since there are 19 accepted trainsets, 7 trainsets will be idle for maintenance or backups.
As for weekend service, it is roughly the same except that there is a Sunday Metroliner roundtrip between NY and WAS.
Chaohwa
Even though 19 trainsets have been accepted, all are still probably going through modifications, so only 12 would be available at any one time.
From Today's Staten Island Advance:
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/10346031071614911.xml
With the current inner loop configuration, how many cars could platform? 3 or maybe 4?
8-10 i think, not sure though
The inner loop can accomodate 10-car trains. However, only the center door of each car can open. The problem is the the TA has not requested selective door opening for their cars in their bids.
Has anyone considered that they may just use the crossovers at either end of the South Ferry station to use the outer loop platform only?
-Hank
Wouldn't that require the 5 to sit on a 'live switch' while the front half is in the station. That's probably a no no.
If the 1's arent using the loop anymore couldn't the switch be set to permanently route the lex trains to the outer loop, so it wouldn't be a live switch anymore?
You're right. I was thinking of the 1 and 5 both using the outer loop but that would cut into 1 service too much.
Aren't they talking about rebuilding the station completely and haveing east side trains terminal at the new station?
No, it wouldn't. If I've interpreted the signs correctly, the switch is over a full trainlength away from the rear end of the platform.
No, it wouldn't. If I've interpreted the signs correctly, the switch is over a full trainlength away from the rear end of the platform.
Here is a map of South Ferry, based on the pre 9-11 configuration, and the diamond crossover drawn in south of Rector Street. The map is to-scale starting from the south end of Bowling Green and to where the 7th AVenue lines drop under the Lex. Both Lines north of BG are at a larger scale, shown for placement.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Thank you. That supports my thesis. Furthermore, the curve straightens out somewhat further back toward the switch. If the platform is not only extended but also moved a bit, most of the platform might not even need gap fillers, satisfying Ron's concern while also satisfying mine.
Peter, any chance you have something similar but showing everything in relation to the street, park, waterfront?
Peter, any chance you have something similar but showing everything in relation to the street, park, waterfront?
Nope; I really wish I *did* have this information, actually. My reference drawings are signal drawings that do not put the placement of the lines into any other perspective relative to streets, actual elevations above/below streets, etc.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Neighborhood maps do show line placement to an extent... i mean it indicates it as a loop
too bad there isn't one from 1974 around (forgot to add that part).
There's also the battery tunnel and battery park underpass to contend with - I believe these are at deeper level than the existing IRT and BMT but a new station underneath the existing SF might run afoul of one or both of them.
There's also the battery tunnel and battery park underpass to contend with - I believe these are at deeper level than the existing IRT and BMT but a new station underneath the existing SF might run afoul of one or both of them.
You can try the MTA neighborhood maps, which show the true locations of stations, platforms, etc in relation to surface features.
Has anyone considered that they may just use the crossovers at either end of the South Ferry station to use the outer loop platform only?
I'm assuming that somebody will come to their senses and the new terminal will just extend the outer loop to 515 feet. I realize that "common sense" and NYCT don't usually go together, especially where $4.5 billion of "free" money is at stake.
I do hope so too, unless the new station can be constructed while the old one is functional. Elsewise the inconvenience of not having the SF station operational will outweigh any possible benefit the new station could have.
What benefit would a new SF station have?
All the doors open? Just walk to the front of the train dummy! Everybody who uses the station regularly does this anyway, and a couple more signs in uptown stations could tell those few people who are riding the train for the first time in their lives to get forward of the conductor's full width cab if they want to get off at SF. And the people who don't read the signs? The hell with them, they can get off at Rector uptown and run like hell for the ferry. And even if the whole train stopped at SF most people would get on the front anyway so it's less of a walk to the ferry after you get off (which can mean the difference between getting on at last call, and waiting in the terminal for 30 minutes, if you come in at 2:57).
Throughput? We'd be blessed beyond measure if the new station could maintain the throughput that the loop currently provides, not to mention a turning point for the nighttime 5.
Ok so the train won't be all screechy when it comes into the station. But that's one of the things we *love* about SF station, and if you don't like it put your fingers in your ears like the tourists do.
Don't like gap fillers? I do, so there. I love getting off the ferry, down into the hot dungeon that is an NYC subway station, hearing the train come screeching in like it's about to derail, then a little Psfffft and the platform comes out, and the doors open, you get on the train and you're on your way. It's the quintessential SF experience which every tourist must experience IMHO. There are chains blocking off sections of the platform where there are no gap fillers so you can't step into the abyss by accident. And if you deliberately climbed over the chains or sit on them and fall off into the path of an oncoming train, well you get my nod for a Darwin award if you get creamed.
Maybe I'm just sentimental about the SF station because I was deprived of it for a year by those terrorist b*stards. Sure Whitehall N/R has that center track where sometimes late at night you could see the money train, and Bowling Green has that mysterious side shuttle platform, but SF is in its own league. And that doesn't even mention that mysterious inner loop and those doorways in what appears ro be an otherwise bland subway tunnel wall, making you wonder where those doors go and why someone would go to the trouble of putting them there. That was one of the things that turned me into a railfan - I saw a 5 coming around the inner loop and wondered what the hell the Lex was doing on my 1/9 line, and Where do those openings lead? Is there some mysterious stop on the Lex that nobody tells you about?
Save SF station!!!!
Ok enough of a rant for now...
I think he means that once the new South Ferry terminal is built, the 5 should run to it. I don't think it would be practical for passengers to use the inner loop.
Once the 1 is using a new station, the 5 or a BG shuttle can use the existing outer loop since it won't conflict with the 1 anymore.
I would think the current loops would be destroyed. But then again maybe not becuase they'd want to try to maintin service while building the new terminal.
There are really only two ways to build a new terminal in that location, and only one of those would allow full service to continue.
The first method would be to build it directly below, with ramps starting after the Rector St station, or even a new Rector station. The tracks need to clear the Battery Tunnel and the Battery Park underpass. The new platforms are built directly beneath the existing terminal. The loop remains active.
The second option would involve building the terminal in line with one of the existing tracks, at a point where it will peel off the existing loop. Service will have to be suspended for a period of time for this to work, as it will incorporate a portion of the existing trackage and station.
Of course, someone with an engineering degree and acces to maps of the underground area can come up with a better solution.
-Hank
I thought the purpose of the crossover at Rector was to facilitate the rebuilding of South Ferry when (if) the project goes on.
I would think the current loops would be destroyed. But then again maybe not becuase they'd want to try to maintin service while building the new terminal.
The reason that the diamond crossover south of Rector Street was installed was so that trains could relay at Rector during the rebuilding of the SF terminal. My belief is that either the loops would either be eliminated in favour of a multi-track stub-end terminal or two new concentric loops with a gentler curve would be built. I'm personally hoping for new loops just for the sake of the speed of turnovers, but either way would be an improvement.
I do agree that the East Side lines MUST go to the Ferry at some point, so long as it is practical to do so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Unfortunately, a new South Ferry terminal will probably result in the destruction of the current station and loop. Service would remain with Rector being the temporary terminal. I believe that is why they added switches south of the Rector station while the line was closed. I have mixed feelings about the project. I feel a loop is very good at turning trains fast. Currently, the major drawback or the SF loop is that it only half a train can platform. I hope that any new terminal there will not slow the 7th Ave line down, as even though the loop is not perfect, being to short, it does turn the 1 trains in a fast manner when it needs to.
I feel a loop is very good at turning trains fast.
Reported experience from the Paris metro (which has several loop terminals of various types) is that an out of service loop is indeed a very efficient form of terminal, especially if combined with multiple loop tracks or sidings.
But an in-service loop, with a platform on the loop, is one of the least efficient forms. Basically because of the way it effectively turns each return trip into a single trip with no opportunity for train regulation between inward and outward trips.
Don't know how that squares with New York experience.
But an in-service loop, with a platform on the loop, is one of the least efficient forms. Basically because of the way it effectively turns each return trip into a single trip with no opportunity for train regulation between inward and outward trips.
The best way to keep trains regulated - i.e. on schedule - is by regulating them at each station rather than just at terminals or a couple of key stations. That way corrections are a matter of seconds rather than minutes. This is what is done in Moscow and the key to their 40+ tph operation.
New York has a recent opeational mandate that reduces out of service loops and relays service levels to 15 tph. The mandate requires that each car be inspected and emptied of passengers. There is insufficient staff on the platforms to carry out this procedure in a sufficiently short period of time to increase service levels.
The 'terminal' timepoint for the 1/9 trains was moved to the northbound platform at Chambers St some time ago. There are now holding lights at South Ferry, and starting lights at Chambers local track northbound.
-Hank
That's like what they do at Kleber on Paris' line 6.
The terminus, CDG-Etoile is a single track in service loop.
At Heathrow Airport at the end of the Piccadilly Line in London, there is a single track loop from Hatton Cross (the station just outside the airport perimeter). From London the train goes first to Heathrow Terminal 4 which is a single platform station, and then to Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 which has two platforms and is the actual terminus (in that trains sit there for a minute or two), but the train is never empty of passengers. From 1,2,3 back to Hatton Cross is double track, and at certain times very late at night and early in the morning trains don't go round the loop, they go direct from Hatton Cross to 1,2,3 and reverse there.
From Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 back to Hatton Cross is double track, and at certain times very late at night and early in the morning trains don't go round the loop, they go direct from Hatton Cross to T1,2,3 and reverse there.
Didn't realise some trains still did that.
When the tube to Heathrow first opened, T1,2,3 was a stub terminal, hence the largely redundant double track on the direct route from Hatton Cross. The outward loop from Hatton Cross to T1,2,3 via T4 is a later addition opened at the same time as Terminal 4 itself.
The iritating thing about this service pattern is that there is a direct service from T4 to T1,2,3 but T1,2,3 to T4 required a change at Hatton Cross. Of course that is a bit academic now the Heathrow Express trains provide a free direct service between T1,2,3 and T4.
And what do you propose for rush hours (when the 5 goes to Brooklyn) and late nights (when the 5 doesn't leave the Bronx)?
In the old days, there was a shuttle from SF to BG.
Yes, and it was cancelled because it wasn't cost-effective. How many people do you think would go downstairs and back up to wait for and transfer to a short train to avoid a five-minute walk? (How many cars can platform at the Bowling Green shuttle platform?)
If South Ferry retains its loop, the cars used by the shuttle and by the 5 train would have to be modified to allow only the middle doors to open (but only at South Ferry). If South Ferry is reconfigured, it would have to be reconfigured in such a way that 5 and shuttle trains can platform without interfering with 1 service.
Of course, if a new South Ferry station is built, this new 5 service would be a little more convenient due to the new station's being ADA compliant.
Yes, and it was cancelled because it wasn't cost-effective. How many people do you think would go downstairs and back up to wait for and transfer to a short train to avoid a five-minute walk? (How many cars can platform at the Bowling Green shuttle platform?)
While the BG-SF shuttle may seem superfluous, the fact remains that it ran for almost 60 years.
The more important fact is that it hasn't run for 25 years, and until now, nobody cared.
Why is this idea dumb?
1. A waste of funds. A shuttle which goes 3 blocks is useless.
2. The inner loop cannot be used by normal trains. The outer loop is already congested with #1/9 trains. Transforming South Ferry into a traditional terminal would reduce capacity on the entire West Side local.
Ferry riders wanting the east side IRT and who are too lazy to walk the 3 blocks (short, not long) can take the N/R/W at Whitehall St. to Union Sq. for the 4/5/6.
Here's another idea:
Extend the South Ferry platform from the southern end up to accomodate 10 car #1 trains. Build a connecting tunnel from this new platform to the Bowling Green station.
That seems to be a good idea. The loop would still be able to turn the 1 train fast. That's the biggest worry I have about the project. Also, isn't the old South Ferry Station landmarked? Can they destroy it, or is it just the mosaics, and ornamentations that are landmarked?
It would more than likely be a straight extension, with the gap fillers only being necessary in the old section of the station, where they are now. Is there enough room to add a five car extension to Sothern end of the station?
All of the decorative tilework in the subway system is landmarked. Any kind of renovation must protect and/or restore the existing tilework. This specifically includes the tile signs and station mosaics. It does not include the usually white wall tile.
-Hank
The more important fact is that it hasn't run for 25 years, and until now, nobody cared.
I completely agree that few if any people still lament the end of the BG-SF shuttle. We've done just fine without it. Even so, it once was useful enough to be kept in service for over 60 years.
"If South Ferry is reconfigured, it would have to be reconfigured in such a way that 5 and shuttle trains can platform without interfering with 1 service."
If there's enough room and if possible, they should turn it into a double platform station and eliminate the loop platforms or SOMEHOW modify them so it could be straight. 1 and 9 trains use one platform and the 5 and shuttles could use the other on off hours.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
A two-track stub-end terminal has a capacity of about 15 tph. What you suggest would limit 1/9 service to about 7.5 tph. That's a major service cut on a line that desparately needs a major service boost.
Why go with a stub-end terminal? What is stopping them from making tail tracks to increase capacity to 30+ tph (whatever the 7 train runs on)? The ocean, perhaps?
New York Harbor, unless you want the station in an inconvenient location (in which case running a shuttle from Bowling Green becomes even less useful).
And a two-track terminal with tail tracks, with only one track assigned to the 1/9, still has less capacity than the current loop track.
Why go with a stub-end terminal? What is stopping them from making tail tracks to increase capacity to 30+ tph (whatever the 7 train runs on)? The ocean, perhaps?
Who said anything about it being only two tracks? I guess it all depends on just how far they want to go in rebuilding. Hell, if they're going to go to a stub-end terminal, why not build something 6 tracks/4 platforms, or maybe 4 tracks/3 platforms?
They already have existing tunnels dug at this point connecting to Lex and 7th Av. If they're going to rip out everything south of Rector and BG and start clean, then I guess anything's possible--money being available, of course.
That said, it might make a hell of a lot more sense to just remove the two tight loops and come up with two concentric loops that are on a much shallower curve than exist now.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
Hell, if they're going to go to a stub-end terminal, why not build something 6 tracks/4 platforms, or maybe 4 tracks/3 platforms?
It will still not increase the number of trains per hour that can be operated. That figure is dictated by the speed by which the trains clear the interlocking. That is not affected by the number of pockets in the terminal.
Well, if they could squeez in two tracks and a straight center platform on the bay side (southwest side) of the current platform for the 1/9 at South Ferry, the existing trackage could be kept in place for the No. 5 trains.
The five-car platform would be kept in place, but extended from the rear another 250 feet along the existing outer loop's edge, while the back wall of the platform would be removed so it would become adjacent to the new 1/9 tracks (creating something of a three-track platform configuration at the rear of the current platform and on its extension. transfers between the 1/9 and the 5 and the exit from the SF station would be at the southeast end of the platform, near the S.I. Ferry terminal
The 1/9 would have two tracks, and could retain its access to the current platform and loop track via a grade level crossing for any necessary diversions (another grade crossing could also be built further north near Rector to keep the loop usable for uptown trains). The 5 would then have the existing track all to itself, and would only need the one track since it would still be in the loop arrangement, while the inner loop could continue to be used for non-revenue service.
Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of what to do about rush hour 5 service to Brooklyn -- at best you could split the 5 service and sent a few trains to S.F., while reactiving the shuttle for rush hour/off hour service -- but it would allow for a straight 10-car platform while keeping the avantages of both East Side/West Side access the current loop set-up offers.
Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of what to do about rush hour 5 service to Brooklyn -- at best you could split the 5 service and sent a few trains to S.F., while reactiving the shuttle for rush hour/off hour service -- but it would allow for a straight 10-car platform while keeping the avantages of both East Side/West Side access the current loop set-up offers.
That's a problem that has existed since 1906. The original IRT planners never anticipated the demand for Brooklyn bound service, and planned the line to send only half it's capacity there. The shuttle was a compromise.
Transit isn't built to be cost effective. The service was cut because it wasn't essential and it would've saved money in a time of crisis. Even if it made a meager profit, they would still cut it because it would save more than it was making. For example:
If the BG-SF shuttle cost a hypothetical $1 million a year to operate, and made $1.1 million a year in revenues, it will be saving the city $1 M to just end it, and it wouldn't be totally screwing the subway system. Have the city make a $100k profit or save spending $1 M? In times of budget crisis, cities tend to opt for the latter.
Of course transit is built to be cost-effective.
How do you expect a BG-SF shuttle to make $1.1M in revenues? How do you expect a BG-SF shuttle to make anything in revenues at all? Would anyone pay a fare specifically to ride the BG-SF shuttle? (No, a few people would transfer from the 4/5.) Would anyone be convinced to ride the subway specifically because of the existence of the BG-SF shuttle? (No more than a few, certainly.)
Transit NEVER makes a profit, plain and simple. It is built to be cost effective ONLY to the extent that it doesnt cost too much money to operate. My $1.1 M example was a hypothetical, I realize that a BG-SF shuttle would be all cost, no revenue.
Is it a good service to have? I think so.
Is it worth the cost? I don't know.
Some uses of transit do make a profit. In a system with a distance-insensitive fare, short trips on lines that are crowded yet not so crowded that capital improvements are considered have a decent chance of being profit-inducing. The cost of a typical (non-railfanning) ride of mine on, say, a midafternoon 1/9 from 86th Street to Times Square is probably less than the $1.36 fare I pay. It's the long outer-borough lines that go practically unused middays and weekends, along with free transfers to buses, that are the big money-losers.
The problem with a shuttle is that it doesn't provide much. It's faster and less staircase-intensive to walk. When the weather is bad, people will use it, but (in the interest of speed) they'd probably prefer an underground walkway (moving, perhaps). So why not spend less money on a moving walkway?
>>> The cost of a typical (non-railfanning) ride of mine on, say, a midafternoon 1/9 from 86th Street to Times Square is probably less than the $1.36 fare I pay. It's the long outer-borough lines that go practically unused middays and weekends, along with free transfers to buses, that are the big money-losers. <<<
Since the cost of your ride (as opposed to running the subway without you on it) is the additional electricity used to propel the train with your additional weight in it, you are probably right in saying that the TA makes a profit (if you are paying for that journey) on your short trip, but on that same basis even the longest trip covers the marginal cost of carrying an additional passenger. Whether a line is profitable or not depends on how many fares it produces, whether long or short (technically called contribution to overhead), not how long the ride is. The only time the subway makes more money from short rides is when it is crush loaded so people have to get off to let more on. It is poulation density that makes Manhattan lines more profitable.
Tom
I'm not an economist but I think I have a basic idea of what I'm saying.
The ride itself costs something to provide. Distribute that cost among the passengers, weighted by the length of the ride. Add in the cost of operating the stations at either end, divided by the number of passengers who use them. Tack on capital costs, both past and projected, and again distribute that among the riders. If I've missed anything (and I'm sure I have), do likewise.
Now add up those costs for a passenger on a midafternoon 1/9 from 86th Street to Times Square. I expect the total to come to less than $1.36.
>>> The ride itself costs something to provide. Distribute that cost among the passengers, weighted by the length of the ride <<<
.... and you have a pretty useless statistic with regard to any two passengers on the system. With an entry based fare system, rather than a distance based system, once the level of service has been set, the costs are virtually fixed regardless of how long any particular passenger's trip is unless you get to overload conditions which prevent or dissuade new passengers from entering the system. Costs per operating track mile, and costs per passenger entry are both useful statistics, but it is fundamentally wrong to think that the system makes money on short passenger trips and loses money on long passenger trips. The TA makes far more from one passenger who takes three round trips from Times Square to Main Street Flushing (paying six fares) than it does from one who travels once from Times Square to Grand Central. If the longer trip were a money loser, that would not be the case.
Tom
By your reasoning, if I pay $1.36 to enter a station and then change my mind and go home, or there's a long delay in service so I forfeit the fare and take a cab, I've gotten my money's worth as much as someone who's paid the same $1.36 to ride from Brooklyn to the Bronx. Even though I haven't gotten anything at all.
A long trip is worth more than a short trip, and it costs more to provide a long trip than to provide a short trip. (Each passenger who gets off makes room for another passenger to get on. If a train has a capacity of 1000 passengers, it has that same capacity over three stops whether 1000 passengers ride for three stops each or 3000 passengers ride for one stop each. If those 3000 passengers decided to ride for three stops each, the TA would have to triple service on the line.) A nearly empty train costs more to provide per passenger than a crowded train. A lightly used station costs more to provide per passenger than a busy station. Yet if I take a short ride on a crowded train between two busy stations, I pay the same price as someone who takes a long trip on an empty train between two desolate stations.
See my mis-posted response here.
Tom
There are several kinds of costs you need to consider.
Let's consider a simple hypothetical case: A shuttle train makes two stops A and B. There are two personnel on board, and each station and the rails has its own upkeep etc.
First there are fixed costs - keeping the lights on at the stations, paying the station agents, transit police, upkeep of the rolling stock and the rails. These are costs which essentially are the same no matter how many passengers ride the system.
Then there are proportional costs - the costs of air conditioning the trains and/or station, the cost of electricity to propel the train, etc. these are costs which increase as the number of passengers increases.
The total cost of operating this hypothetical line is the sum of the fixed and proportional costs, obviously.
Now there are two ways to figure out what a fair fare (pun intended) should be.
One is to take the total cost and divide by the number of passengers. Let's say that in one day the total cost of operation comes out to $100,000 and the shuttle serves 50,000 passengers. Then the *average* cost of a ride is $2.
Now suppose that the next day goes exactly the same as the day before except that instead of 50,000 passengers, there are 50,001 passengers, and the total cost of operation is $100,001. The *marginal* cost of adding this additional passenger is $1.
So there are two quite distinct ways of tallying up the costs. I think you were hinting at this, but I was just throwing some terminology into the mix. I think you'll find the marginal cost of a ride is pretty minimal - the extra electricity required to propel your body weight on the train, the extra air conditioning required to displace your body heat, the extra wear on the metrocard machine caused by your swipe, the wear on the steps and the platform from your walking on it, the additional 1/3 turn of the turnstile as you go through, etc. It's the average cost, which includes those fixed costs of keeping the station lit, keeping the cars and tracks in reasonable working order, that will be quite large, and larger for the less-used suburban lines. True, those costs would be incurred in the most part whether you rode the train at all, but are required for the service to even be available.
Okay. Now take those fixed costs and distribute them appropriately to the people responsible for them.
If no passengers use station X, the TA can close the station. Except for a very basic level of maintenance (to keep the walls from caving in, say), the (so-called) fixed costs drops to 0.
Let's say Alice uses station X, and the TA chooses to accomodate her. How much does it cost to run a station? Say $1000 per day. If Alice uses this station once per day on average, she is personally responsible for a cost of $1000 per ride.
Now let's say she convinces her friends Bob and Carol to also use the station. Bob similarly uses the station an average of once per day, but Carol uses it twice per day. Now Alice, Bob, and Carol are each responsible for $250 per ride.
But wait. What if the TA, as a rule, adds a new entrance, at a cost of $500 per day, to any station with a daily volume of 1000 passengers? In a station with a daily volume of 999 passengers, each passenger is responsible for a hair over $1, but what do we do with the thousandth passenger? Is he personally responsible for $500? It seems more reasonable to distribute that additional cost among all 1000 passengers, holding each responsible for $1.50. But what then do we say about Alice, Bob, and Carol, back before the station became so popular? Do we hold them each responsible for $375 rather than $250? I don't know how economists answer this question. It seems to me the answer lies somewhere in the middle -- on the one hand, Alice, Bob, and Carol only have one entrance, so they can't be held responsible for two; on the other, if enough Alices, Bobs, and Carols come along, the station will need a second entrance.
That's why I suggest that a rider on a line that's crowded, yet not so crowded that the agency is considering building a new line for relief, yields the lowest cost. Think of a station whose passenger count hovers in the 900's yet is unlikely to ever reach 1000 (or it's clear that the TA won't bother to add another entrance even if it does).
The difference between your approach and mine is that you're looking at the system as a whole and I'm accounting for each cost independently. If you're interested, I can go into my reasoning.
The problem is, How do you keep track of what these costs are to charge the passengers effectively? Is it an unknown amount, and you're billed at the end of the year when they figure out how much it costs? I don't think Alice would be too happy to learn her ride every day cost $1000!
As for the 1000th passenger question, I'd think you go with the average cost there, not the marginal cost. In fact I'd go with that all the time, except that it's "smoothed out" to prevent jabbing somebody with a $1000 per ride bill - if one station turns out to be so horribly unprofitable it is closed down, bringing the costs down to the minimum they can be. Marginal costs fail to account for the fixed costs which I suspect in something as complex as a subway system comprise the majority of the costs (which is why there are such powerful economies of scale as the fixed costs can be spread out. That's why I haven't built my own subway line yet, for example.)
The problem is, How do you keep track of what these costs are to charge the passengers effectively? Is it an unknown amount, and you're billed at the end of the year when they figure out how much it costs? I don't think Alice would be too happy to learn her ride every day cost $1000!
No, the estimated costs are computed in advance, based on experience. Of course, experience is sometimes proven wrong. Who would have guessed that some of the busiest stations in the system through the first eight months of 2001 would have suddenly been rendered much less useful (and destroyed, in one case) due to two airplanes?
But we're getting ahead of ourselves. At this point I'm not actually suggesting that passengers be literally charged their costs, which would carry along political and logistical difficulties. I'm just saying that we should recognize that different passengers cost the transit system different amounts. In some cases, though probably a minority, that cost is less than the fare paid. (And I'm suggesting, specifically, that some of the subway rides I take cost less than the $1.36 I pay for them.)
But again is that in marginal cost (the additional electricity required to propel you to your destination should you decide whether or not to get on the train) or is it the average cost which takes into account the fixed costs incurred by having a train come into the station, by having a station in the first place, etc. My guess is that most marginal costs are less than the fare paid, but the average costs are more than the fare paid. Just my guess, based on absolutely no data whatsoever.
>>> By your reasoning, if I pay $1.36 to enter a station and then change my mind and go home, or there's a long delay in service so I forfeit the fare and take a cab, I've gotten my money's worth as much as someone who's paid the same $1.36 to ride from Brooklyn to the Bronx. Even though I haven't gotten anything at all. <<<
My post made no mention of the value to the rider, just the value to the TA. Because the marginal cost of transporting you on the train is so low, it is virtually the same to the TA if you swipe your card and then turn around and go home, ride for two stations, or spend the day rail fanning (as long as your presence does not prevent another passenger from riding).
>>> A long trip is worth more than a short trip, and it costs more to provide a long trip than to provide a short trip <<<
A long trip is not necessarily worth more than a short trip. If you are going from point A to point B, and have a choice of a long route and a short route, the time saving would make the short route worth more than the long route. The value of a trip is more related to the reason for it than the length, particularly in the context of an intra city trip. The marginal cost of a longer trip to the TA is cost of the additional electricity to haul your body weight the additional distance. All the other costs are the same whether the trip is long or short as long as you are not exceeding system capacity.
>>> A nearly empty train costs more to provide per passenger than a crowded train. A lightly used station costs more to provide per passenger than a busy station. <<<
This is very true, and it is a function of planning and scheduling to get as much utilization of the capital assets as possible. That is one of the reasons the TA has closed stations, and changes destinations of trains and frequency of service from time to time. But once the schedule is fixed, the operating costs become relatively fixed also, no matter how many passengers ride each line, and fares are set system wide, not per line. Each additional fare on every line covers the marginal cost of that ride and adds to the recovery of the fixed costs.
>>> Yet if I take a short ride on a crowded train between two busy stations, I pay the same price as someone who takes a long trip on an empty train between two desolate stations. <<<
That is the nature of business. There is no volume business that individually tailors the price to the costs to provide a particular product or service to each individual customer. The TA has chosen the single price per entry system wide model. It could have charged different amounts for different lines, or it could have chosen a distance based model or conceivably a time based model, or even one which charged different fares at different times (although those alternatives might be politically unacceptable). One thing that would not be feasible would be to take a head count of the passengers on any given train and charge them a variable price according to how many were aboard.
Although it is possible to take the total costs and divide them by the number of passenger miles to find the cost per passenger mile, and possibly use that to compare with other systems, it is a false use of statistics to suggest that short trips are profitable and long trips are unprofitable for the TA.
Tom
The above should have been posted as a response to this message. Sorry for the confusion.
Tom
No, no, you've missed my point entirely. I'm not suggesting that, each time an individual passenger enters the system, the TA has to shell out a few dollars. I'm saying that if a lot of riders decide to take lots of short trips on moderately crowded lines at various times of the day, the TA will come out ahead, and if a lot of riders decide to take a few long trips on mostly empty lines only during rush hour, the TA will come out behind. Trips of the sort I often take probably cost the TA less than $1.36 per passenger. Trips of the sort a lot of other people take cost the TA more than $1.36 per passenger.
Let's say your local supermarket decided to do away with item-by-item pricing, replacing it with a blanket $25 charge to enter the store. After paying the entry charge, customers can take whatever they want. Customer A pays the $25 and walks out with a gallon of milk. Customer B pays the $25 and walks out with three shopping carts full of meat and cheese. (Note that milk, meat, and cheese are all perishables. Whatever the store doesn't get rid of within a few days is thrown out.) I would say that the store probably made money on customer A but probably lost money on customer B. Following your reasoning, it appears that you would refuse to make such a characterization.
There is the problem that in crowded systems, particularly at peak times, people going only one or two stops (and therefore able to walk) can take up enough space to prevent those going longer distances boarding. In this case, it is only fair to charge the same fare.
That really only becomes an issue in conditions of extreme overcrowding when it is physically impossible to cram any more people in. Of course, the short-distance poeple might learn from experience how unpleasant those conditions are, and stop trying to use the subway for their short trips. In London with the long escalators to the deep tube lines, there is another disincentive to short rides - going all the way down at the start, waiting for the train, riding, and coming all the way up again at the end, takes longer than just walking the trip on the surface!
That really only becomes an issue in conditions of extreme overcrowding when it is physically impossible to cram any more people in.
To be fair, it's really more of an issue on the buses. The only LT station I've ever had that problem at was Tottenham Court Road, so I walked to Goodge Street.
In London with the long escalators to the deep tube lines, there is another disincentive to short rides - going all the way down at the start, waiting for the train, riding, and coming all the way up again at the end, takes longer than just walking the trip on the surface!
Still doesn't stop the idiot tourists - the most used journey by tourists is Leicester Square to Covent Garden, a distance of 0.16 miles (or 845 feet). As getting out of Covent Garden station is a feat in itself (it doesn't have escalators), it is an exercise in sheer lunacy anyway (even for longer distances it's better to use Leicester Square). I've said before that Covent Garden is one of a few LT stations that should simply be closed. I'm surprised it survived the cutbacks in 1994.
Covent Garden probably survived because the neighbourhood had become so trendy and a tourist honey-pot. Most Londoners realise how close to Leicester Square it is, but out-of-towners only know London as a series of islands around tube stations. The station is now very busy and certainly won't be closed. In fact, on Friday and Saturday evenings they probably need the escalator/lift capacity of *both* stations to handle the crowds.
In fact they didn't close any stations in 1994 (except the Ongar branch which was a hopeless case anyway), did they?
They closed the Aldwych Station on 3 October 1994.
I would have liked to have seen that one. We passed by its entranceway last year while we walked along the Strand.
wayne
Only if nobody will get on where those passengers get off.
That's certainly not the case on the lines I ride most often.
You may have a fair point, due to the large size of the CBD of New York. In other cities, it is a major annoyance that people going three stops will pack out the buses in the City Center leaving those going 4 or 5 miles standing on the sidewalk.
>>> Let's say your local supermarket decided to do away with item-by-item pricing, replacing it with a blanket $25 charge to enter the store. <<<
That is a poor analogy because so much of the cost of servicing the supermarket customer is the cost of the goods sold. It costs the supermarket much more to provide a big grocery cart full of goods than a small handbasket of goods so entry pricing just will not work. It costs the TA very little more to provide a long subway ride over a short ride.
A better supermarket analogy might be that a market manager divides the total cost of operating a market (including the cost of goods sold) by the total number of customers and determines that the cost per customer is $50.00. Although the store must average sales of at least $50.00 per customer to break even, it does not follow that each customer who spends less than $50.00 on a trip to the market does not add to the total profit the store makes and therefore is "unprofitable." Because the prices charged are more than the cost of the goods sold, the market makes money on every customer, not just the big spenders.
Tom
>>...so entry pricing just will not work. <<
Ever been to a King Buffet? Entry pricing works :)
Sorry, you're wrong. It costs a lot more to provide short rides to 5,000 passengers than to provide long rides to 5,000 passengers. The TA has to run more trains, and occasionally build a new line, to accomodate passengers. Those additional trains and new lines are relatively cheap if the passengers aren't traveling far, and if there's a wide range of origins and destinations, a group of short-haul passengers can use precisely the same resources as a single long-haul passenger.
>>and occasionally build a new line<<
Going off topic... When was the last time a new line was built? I don't mean a new letter designation using existing trackage like the V or the W, or short little segments, like the 1400 ft under Greenwich St destroyed in 9/11, the Chrystie connection or the 63rd st. tunnel... I mean actual new trackage, say more than a mile, with at least one new terminal at the end or the new line.
The subway's newest segments are the ones used by the E between Van Wyck/Main St. and Jamaica Center and the J between 121st St. and Jamaica Center, which is roughly a mile long, and the 63rd St. connector used by the F. It has the 14-year-old segment from 57th 6th/57th-7th (normally unused) to 21st-Queensbridge and the linking segment opened last year between there and 36th St. at Northern Blvd. Combined, that covers about 2 1/2 miles and only took 31 years from the start of construction to the (admittedly modified) completion.
31 years... now how much of the subway was constructed in the 31 years between 1900 and 1930? What has become of us...
>>> It costs a lot more to provide short rides to 5,000 passengers than to provide long rides to 5,000 passengers. The TA has to run more trains, and occasionally build a new line, to accomodate passengers <<<
You insist upon talking at cross purposes. Building the infrastructure and determining the number of trains, the length of the trains, and the frequency of the trains is all done at a planning stage. That is where the system is designed to carry anticipated loads of passengers which takes into account where, when and how far they will be traveling. In the day to day operations, after all those levels have been determined, and within design limits, the cost of running the subway is a certain relatively fixed amount, even if no one rides anywhere. This is because all the T/O's C/Rs, SAs and other employees have to be paid no matter how many people ride the trains or how far they travel. Every passenger who enters the system paying a fare helps to defray this immense cost, whether they travel a short or long distance. The cost to carry a passenger a short distance is virtually the same as the cost of carrying him a long distance, amounting to the difference between the cost of electricity to run a train with him on board and the cost of running the train without him on board.
If you look back up the thread you will see this discussion came from you stating that your short trip in Manhattan might be profitable, while a long trip on an outlying line would result in a loss to the TA. That is not true.
Tom
The planning stage never stops. As ridership patterns change, the planners adjust service. If ridership grows, service is increased. If ridership drops, service is reduced.
If you look back up the thread you will see this discussion came from you stating that your short trip in Manhattan might be profitable, while a long trip on an outlying line would result in a loss to the TA.
Maybe you're confusing me with someone else, or maybe you're misinterpreting what I said. I explicitly pointed out that this is not what I was claiming.
>>> Maybe you're confusing me with someone else, or maybe you're misinterpreting what I said. I explicitly pointed out that this is not what I was claiming. <<<
From your post #396598
"The cost of a typical (non-railfanning) ride of mine on, say, a midafternoon 1/9 from 86th Street to Times Square is probably less than the $1.36 fare I pay. It's the long outer-borough lines that go practically unused middays and weekends, along with free transfers to buses, that are the big money-losers."
Tom
Yes, read it. I don't say that "a long trip on an outlying line would result in a loss to the TA." I say that the lines are money-losers. Once the line is up and running, if I pay a fare to ride on it, the TA has gained close to $1.36. But for whom is the line kept up and running? Hold those people collectively responsible for the costs of having built the line and of keeping it in service today.
>>> But for whom is the line kept up and running? Hold those people collectively responsible for the costs of having built the line and of keeping it in service today. <<<
All of the lines are kept running for all of the citizens of and visitors to the City of New York.
With computers, the TA has the ability to introduce distance based variable pricing according to how heavily used a line is, so different fares could be computed for traveling between any pair of stations in the system. Although that might satisfy your desire to have everyone pay his own share, with the people in Far Rockaway paying more than 10 times as much to travel a mile than those in mid Manhattan, and off hour fares costing far more than rush hour fares, such a pricing system is politically infeasible, and would be counterproductive to the main value of the subway system, tying the whole city together.
It would certainly lead to a reduction of the use of the subway system, and untold changes in the structure of the city as modestly paid employees could no longer afford employment far from home. Businesses in Manhattan needing workers who now live in the outer boroughs (and can't afford to live in Manhattan) would either have to increase the cost of doing business by paying for the workers' transportation costs or move out of Manhattan to reduce the cost of labor. Non essential travel would be curtailed, depressing all business. New York would become an entirely different city.
Tom
"The cost to carry a passenger a short distance is virtually the same as the cost of carrying him a long distance, amounting to the difference between the cost of electricity to run a train with him on board and the cost of running the train without him on board."
You are referring to the incremental cost, not the average cost.
Let's take a simple if unrealistic example. Suppose an additional million people wanted to take the 8th Ave line, with half of them traveling from 59th to 14th and the other half traveling from 14th to Bway Nassau. NYCT would respond by adding more C trains, enough to handle half a million people (since the two groups don't overlap).
Suppose instead a million additional people wanted to travel between Far Rock and 42nd. Now NYCT would have to add enough Far Rock A trains to handle a million people.
The difference: the long rides require twice as many trains, and they go much further. The operational AND capital costs of enough A trains for a million people are maybe 3.5 times as high as the costs for enough C trains for half a million people. But the added revenue is the same in either case.
The operational AND capital costs of enough A trains for a million people are maybe 3.5 times as high as the costs for enough C trains for half a million people.
There are two factors that oppose that figure:
1) Since (as far as I know) there's no place to short-turn those extra C trains, you'd have to run them between 168th and Euclid anyway.
2) You'd still have to store those extra cars and move them to and from a yard that's far away from the peak service area.
And what do you propose for rush hours (when the 5 goes to Brooklyn) and late nights (when the 5 doesn't leave the Bronx)?
Actually, they can increase rush hour Lex Ave express service by reversing trains at South Ferry. The Brooklyn bound trains are limited to 30 tph by a combination of the terminals facilities, the Rodgers junction and TA routing. Capacity could be increased to 36 tph by reversing the extras at South Ferry. BTW, they used to have 2 short runs during the AM rush hour (149th St to Bowling Green).
Also, running the midday trains to South Ferry instead of Bowling Green would improve on time preformance. The TA has a double whammy at Bowling Green. First, they have scheduled an uneven merge between the #4 and #5 trains on the express. This creates non-uniform headways. Second, the TA's fumigation policy results in delaying following Brooklyn bound trains because of the resultant non-uniform headways.
The midnight solution has already been tried before. Extend the local from Brooklyn Bridge to South Ferry.
Actually, they can increase rush hour Lex Ave express service by reversing trains at South Ferry.
Doesn't the 5 train use the inner loop at South Ferry to turn trains anyway? (without stopping, of course)
His point is that South Ferry could handle excess capacity that would exceed the maximum allowed by the configuration of the Brooklyn IRT. He's right, but without a South Ferry terinal to use, the trains would have to terminate at Bowling Green anyway, which would be an utter disaster during rush hours.
Yes, that's what I didn't understand. Actually, it's all well and good that they could use Rector as a temporary terminal for the 7th Ave line (even though I still think that will slow things down), but with the two loops of the SF loop out of commission, the 5 will not be able to terminate at Bowling Green, because according to Peter's track map, they can't turn, or even switch after the Bowling Green station. Wall Street could be a terminal, as there are switches between it and Bowling Green, but now I see the concern. Having South Ferry closed for demolition or even reconstruction will have a worse effect on the Lexington Line than the West Side line.
If the 1/9 ended at Rector if SF were rebuilt, could the 5 be extended to Atlantic or Flatbush outside rush hours?
Yes. A couple of years ago the #5 had to relay at Atlantic Ave as the switches from the Lexington Ave line to the South Ferry loop were being replaced (cutting off access to the inner loop for nearly a month). Trains pulled into Atlantic Ave southbound, then immediatley turned around and switched over to the northbound track. This was done while normal #4 service was running!
Trains pulled into Atlantic Ave southbound, then immediatley turned around and switched over to the northbound track. This was done while normal #4 service was running!
There's a diamond cross-over north of the Bowling Green station. If directions were immediately changed, as was supposedly done at Atlantic, then there was no reason to extend service to #5 service to Atlantic.
I'm not arguing the merits of how it was done, just reporting the fact that it was.
I don't think the TA currently runs more than 30 tph on any track in the system. If they'd be willing to give it a shot, 6 tph to South Ferry would be a worthwhile place to try, assuming South Ferry concerns are addressed.
I'm told that, in practice, off-peak 5 trains aren't actually fumigated at Bowling Green.
I'm told that, in practice, off-peak 5 trains aren't actually fumigated at Bowling Green.
They were when I observed the operation about a year ago. The short between-station lengths backed up the line past Wall St several times during my observations. The measurements I was taking had to be for green aspect conditions. So, I was annoyed that I had to throw away several readings for dwell time and acceleration.
If you mean "fumigated" in the context the trains being inspected and verified to be completely emptied before leaving Bowling Green, you'd be wrong. They are always checked and not allowed to leave unless empty.
I have been informed otherwise by a crew member who has worked the 5.
And I've witnessed otherwise, including today. They're checked quickly, but they still are held for a time before closing up and leaving.
>>I don't think the TA currently runs more than 30 tph on any track in the system. If they'd be willing to give it a shot, 6 tph to South Ferry would be a worthwhile place to try, assuming South Ferry concerns are addressed. <<
I don't think you'd even need that many.
How about sending 1 "extra" train on the lex to south ferry to meet each incoming ferry? That means:
Weekdays: 1 tph for 6 hours a day, 2 tph for 11 hours a day, 3-4 tph for 7 hours a day.
Weekends: 1 tph for 16 hours a day, 2 tph for 8 hours a day.
If there were a new SF station to platform 7th Ave trains, that leaves the old SF outer loop open. Have one train, call it the 15, go down to meet each outgoing boat and accept passengers coming off the boat, and add additional capacity on the Lex line. At other times there's very little need to send trains there. Overnight send the 5 to South Ferry as is done now, with or without a station stop. That train is sent up the pipeline carrying passengers from the SI Ferry - all the other trains on the line either go to BG and then Brooklyn (the 4 and the daytime 5), or terminate at BB and loop at City Hall (the 6).
Spend a night at the SF station and you'll see. It's empty, empty, empty, empty, empty, then a bunch of people, then empty, empty, empty.... if you had one train to meet each incoming ferry at SF you'd pick up a substantial fraction of all the passengers who use the station with perhaps 1/6 of the tph.
Perhaps. But wouldn't you need one train before each ferry (to drop off passengers) and another train after each ferry (to pick up passengers)? It one train has to sit at the station for a few minutes, it risks holding up the trains behind it.
I'm not sure this sets good precedent. Does the TA want to set itself up to provide a connecting service with the DOT? Even with no guarantees, passengers will come to expect the connections. What happens when a train runs a few minutes late and misses the ferry? What happens when a ferry runs a few minutes late and misses the train? This is already the arrangement in Staten Island -- how do passengers react there to missed connections?
(I'm not knocking the idea -- I'm just not sure it would work.)
BTW, right now, only rush hour 5's go to Brooklyn, and overnight 5's are shuttles in the Bronx.
1. This wouldn't be on the main service line - the 4/5 would go to Brooklyn and the 6 would turn at Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall. So you can think of the SF loop as a side track on the Lex so there's no pileup behind it, once the 1/9 is out of there.
2. The SIR already runs on schedule to connect to the SI Ferry, as do the majority of bus lines on SI. I don't ride the SIR but from what I understand it is pretty reliable, getting there about 8 minutes before the ferry departs. The buses are so-so, but usually make it. If the ferry is late, the buses wait, or else they pull out of St. George completely empty and probably stay that way most of the route. I'm not sure about the train, but I think they'll hold it too.
I guess the problem would be that these SF trains would just "show up" at Bowling Green at more or less random times (as far as the lex's headways are concerned the arrival times will be for all intents and purposes random), and need to be squeezed in to get on the line.
>>how do passengers react there to missed connections? <<
with language I don't care to repeat in here :)
1. The midday and weekend 5 terminates at Bowling Green currently. I suppose that, if the 1/9 gets a separate station, the special Lex-SF trains can use the outer loop and other 5 trains can pass on the inner loop.
2. I was on Staten Island a few weeks ago, and I decided to ride SIR to the ferry. Well, I had no idea there was single-tracking for a few miles due to track work. We had to wait a few minutes to let a southbound train pass. I anticipated a close call, so I moved to the first car (my only experience passing between R-44's) and got my MetroCard ready for the exit swipe. When the doors opened, I ran, and I got to the ferry as the bell was ringing. I don't see how the passengers in the last car could have made it.
Wow I'm surprised to hear that. I haven't used SIR in ages but my recollection was that it was pretty reliable in getting you to the ferry.
It's possible the ferry was held a minute or two after the bell. We didn't leave instantly, but ferries never leave instantly.
My experience with ferries is it takes a few minutes from the time the last passenger is allowed on until departure. Haven't been on SI Ferry for years though.
Passengers ALREADY expect the connections, especially late at night when the ferry runs once an hour. During 'normal' hours - weekdays between 6am and 11pm - if the train misses the boat, it's not TOO bad, because there is another boat coming. On the midnight hours, if the train just misses the boat, there is no other boat coming - you have to wait for the same one to return. If something happens to the boat, you're stranded in Manhattan until another boat can be made ready. (This happens every now and again. The only time Iexperienced it, I was the midnight platform C/R at South Ferry, using the station PA to tell everyone there was no boat service until about 4:30am (This started at 2:00am)).
If the boat just misses the train, it's no big deal - there is always another train coming, probably no more than 18 minutes away. As an alternative, there is also the BMT across the street and the Lex down the block.
If a new platform/tracks were built for the 1/9 leaving the outer loop open for Lexington trains, rush hour 5 trains to/from 238th St. could be the ones designated as the South Ferry loop trains, while the Dyre 5s would continue to go to and come from Brooklyn. That wouldn't give riders any extra rush hour service to the terminal (in fact it would be a cut from non-rush), but it would be workable if the trains could be matched to the rush hour ferry scheduled.
Non-rush, early evenings and weekends all 5s could go to SF, while at nights the 6 could be extended there, which is something the MTA has done in the past.
Most 5's from 238th go to Utica and are laid up for the midday at Livonia. How do you get a 5 at South Ferry into Brooklyn without a disruptive reverse move?
You wouldn't be able to south of the center track at 59th St., so it would depend on how important Lex service to South Ferry would be in the eyes of the MTA to justfy the extra five-mile trip uptown and back for the thru-express No. 5 trains (unless the MTA could squeeze in a 550-foot center track for turn-arounds in-between the express tracks at Spring Street)
Firtunately, SIRTOA and the DOT work on this. It all depends on the length of the delay. More than 7 minutes, the boat leaves without meeting the train. Unless track work is being done between Jefferson Ave and Great Kills, the train is held up to 15 minutes for a late boat. One thing that I wish could be done is at least 20-minute service on the SIR, rather than the 30-minute service currently in place.
-Hank
Theoretical capacity aside, the Lex express cannot realistically handle any additional rush hour service, and every one of those trains is needed in Brooklyn. It's already slow as it is. Your point about the midday #5 termination-bottleneck at Bowling Green is a fair one. I'd offer a better solution: run it to Flatbush Ave. all day long.
Theoretical capacity aside...
Either theory is wrong or operating practices are poor, where there is a discrepency between theory and practice. You will go broke, if most of the time, you bet on wrong theory.
..the Lex express cannot realistically handle any additional rush hour service,..
Other systems operate 40% more trains during the peak time period than NYCT currently does on the Lex. These trains are of similar charactistics regarding length, acceleration and deceleration. They also use fixed block systems and handle larger passenger volumes.
..every one of those trains is needed in Brooklyn.
The current leave load level for Brooklyn Lex Ave expresses is around 70%; the same figure at 86th St is 116%. This indicates that more service is needed north of Bowling Green and that Brooklyn service is adequate. So a proposal that would increase the number of trains north of Bowling Green and would not decrease the number of trains going to Brooklyn would address the problem without "robbing Peter to pay Paul".
...run it [the 5 train] to Flatbush Ave. all day long.
Current midday headways on the #4 are is 5 minutes. I confirmed this with my measurements last year. This is more than adequate to meet Brooklyn's current demand for Lex Ave access. As previously mentioned the Rodgers junction design is one of the causes of Brooklyn IRT delays. More service to Flatbush Ave can be accomplished by routing more West Side trains to Flatbush and having a cross-platform transfer at Franklin Ave. This would eliminate the Rodgers Junction grade crossing problem. (This is what the BOT used to do.)
Other systems operate 40% more trains during the peak time period than NYCT currently does on the Lex. These trains are of similar charactistics regarding length, acceleration and deceleration. They also use fixed block systems and handle larger passenger volumes.
I'm not interested in other systems. I'm talking about this one. Unless there's a major change in operating regulations, you cannot realistically run more trains on the Lex than are currently being run. It's already SLOOOOOOOW as it is. Perhaps we rude New Yorkers increase dwelling times over other systems, or we have more stations per mile than others.
The current leave load level for Brooklyn Lex Ave expresses is around 70%; the same figure at 86th St is 116%. This indicates that more service is needed north of Bowling Green and that Brooklyn service is adequate. So a proposal that would increase the number of trains north of Bowling Green and would not decrease the number of trains going to Brooklyn would address the problem without "robbing Peter to pay Paul".
You're numbers might be pretty on paper, but they're pure bunk in practice. Only 50% of the Lexington Ave's service goes to Brooklyn. The trains are crowded beyond belief, as badly as they're crowded in Manhattan. When trains become packed to the point that they're nearly impossible to board without people getting off before the line leaves the residential areas it serves on it's outer leg generally indicates that more service is required. I'm no mathematician, you'll just have to "take my word for it" :)
Current midday headways on the #4 are is 5 minutes. I confirmed this with my measurements last year. This is more than adequate to meet Brooklyn's current demand for Lex Ave access. As previously mentioned the Rodgers junction design is one of the causes of Brooklyn IRT delays. More service to Flatbush Ave can be accomplished by routing more West Side trains to Flatbush and having a cross-platform transfer at Franklin Ave. This would eliminate the Rodgers Junction grade crossing problem. (This is what the BOT used to do.)
I offered up the "5 to Fatbush all day" more to adress the bottleneck at Bowling Green and the need to increase midday service on the Nostrand Ave. branch. Yes, it would create redundant service from Boro Hall to Franklin Ave. But that's hardly unusual. Does the B'way express need 18 TPH at noon?
I have in front of me passenger and train counts taken on Brooklyn-bound 4 and 5 trains each hour of the day on a weekday in 1996. (Sorry, it's old but it's all I have.)
I'll present, for each hour between 7am and 7pm, the number of passengers, the number of cars, and the number of passengers per car:
7-8: 2225 passengers / 190 cars = 11.7 ppc
8-9: 3620 / 210 = 17.2
9-10: 2474 / 220 = 11.2
10-11: 1809 / 130 = 13.9
11-12: 1719 / 70 = 24.6
12-13: 2366 / 120 = 19.7
13-14: 2900 / 100 = 29.0
14-15: 3246 / 110 = 29.5
15-16: 4519 / 100 = 45.2
16-17: 8890 / 180 = 49.4
17-18: 13825 / 230 = 60.1
18-19: 10876 / 130 = 83.7
According to this page, an R-142 has 34-40 seats. (I don't have seat counts for R-33's or R-62's, but I assume they're similar, perhaps a bit higher due to the narrower doors.)
So until 3pm, according to these numbers, everybody gets a seat, and until 5pm an average of no more than 12 passengers stand in each car. (I'm assuming that passengers will fill all seats before standing.)
Yes, I know that off-peak ridership has risen since 1996 and that service probably hasn't increased at the same rate, but I find it a little unlikely that the same trains that didn't even have standees in 1996 are now "nearly impossible to board." (Another possibility is that trains are crowded in Brooklyn and empty out by Borough Hall -- but in that case, the 2 and 3 are also available.)
So until 3pm, according to these numbers, everybody gets a seat, and until 5pm an average of no more than 12 passengers stand in each car. (I'm assuming that passengers will fill all seats before standing.)
I agree that Lexington Ave service in Brooklyn, as is, is adequate up to the PM rush. If you'll re-read an earlier post I made on this subject, I advocated cutting Brooklyn #4 service in half and replacing it with the #5 to Flatbush during midday hours (the other half of #4 service would end at Bowling Green). That wouldn't increase service, but it would balance it between Utica and Flatbush, and it would give the Nostrand Ave. IRT a needed service increase all day long.
Yes, I know that off-peak ridership has risen since 1996 and that service probably hasn't increased at the same rate, but I find it a little unlikely that the same trains that didn't even have standees in 1996 are now "nearly impossible to board."
I was referring to rush hour loads on the Brooklyn 4/5, which is ridiculously heavy, both coming into AND leaving Atlantic Ave. Unfortunatley, the Flatbush Ave terminal and the Rogers Ave. junction preclude any meaningful service increase.
I was referring to rush hour loads on the Brooklyn 4/5, which is ridiculously heavy, both coming into AND leaving Atlantic Ave.
Not in comparison to other IRT lines, except for the Brooklyn 2/3.
Here are the analogous figures (from NYCT Operations Planning's Weekday Cordon Count 1996; any arithmetic errors are my own), starting with the 2/3 leaving Wall Street:
7-8: 1396 / 152 = 9.2
8-9: 1797 / 151 = 11.9
9-10: 2431 / 210 = 11.6
10-11: 1320 / 143 = 9.2
11-12: 1147 / 104 = 11.0
12-13: 1991 / 114 = 17.5
13-14: 2291 / 104 = 22.0
14-15: 3134 / 114 = 27.5
15-16: 3915 / 114 = 34.3
16-17: 6945 / 162 = 42.9
17-18: 10594 / 162 = 65.4
18-19: 8726 / 134 = 65.1
Now the 4/5 leaving 59th Street northbound:
7-8: 9470 / 140 = 67.6
8-9: 9022 / 200 = 45.1
9-10: 5028 / 250 = 20.1
10-11: 3893 / 200 = 19.5
11-12: 3979 / 190 = 20.9
12-13: 4629 / 160 = 28.9
13-14: 5105 / 160 = 31.9
14-15: 7088 / 160 = 44.3
15-16: 10057 / 180 = 55.9
16-17: 13766 / 160 = 86.0
17-18: 21898 / 180 = 121.7
18-19: 19220 / 230 = 83.6
And the 6 leaving 59th Street northbound:
7-8: 8398 / 70 = 120.0
8-9: 10592 / 100 = 105.9
9-10: 11786 / 260 = 45.3
10-11: 6968 / 110 = 63.3
11-12: 5889 / 110 = 53.5
12-13: 4225 / 110 = 38.4
13-14: 5215 / 130 = 40.1
14-15: 4901 / 110 = 44.6
15-16: 2487 / 20 [obviously a fluke] = 124.4
16-17: 9674 / 120 = 80.6
17-18: 16699 / 120 = 139.2
18-19: 20804 / 210 = 99.1
Here's the 2/3 leaving 42nd Street northbound:
7-8: 4907 / 123 = 39.9
8-9: 7158 / 162 = 44.2
9-10: 4595 / 142 = 32.4
10-11: 3804 / 152 = 25.0
11-12: 3242 / 123 = 26.4
12-13: 3696 / 114 = 32.4
13-14: 4480 / 105 = 42.7
14-15: 6226 / 123 = 50.6
15-16: 7331 / 114 = 64.3
16-17: 10668 / 142 = 75.1
17-18: 17370 / 191 = 90.9
18-19: 12554 / 142 = 88.4
And the 1/9 leaving 59th Street northbound:
7-8: 4101 / 80 = 51.3
8-9: 5528 / 120 = 46.1
9-10: 5026 / 180 = 27.9
10-11: 3463 / 110 = 31.5
11-12: 3954 / 120 = 33.0
12-13: 3563 / 120 = 29.7
13-14: 4063 / 120 = 33.9
14-15: 5738 / 120 = 47.8
15-16: 7958 / 120 = 66.3
16-17: 8122 / 100 = 81.2
17-18: 12571 / 140 = 89.8
18-19: 12534 / 100 = 125.3
Finally, for completeness, the 7 to Flushing leaving Grand Central:
7-8: 6254 / 198 = 31.6
8-9: 4689 / 242 = 19.4
9-10: 2435 / 209 = 11.6
10-11: 1555 / 121 = 12.9
11-12: 2053 / 110 = 18.7
12-13: 2875 / 88 = 32.7
13-14: 3084 / 99 = 31.2
14-15: 3975 / 110 = 36.1
15-16: 6253 / 121 = 51.7
16-17: 10400 / 165 = 63.0
17-18: 16232 / 220 = 73.8
18-19: 13715 / 209 = 65.6
The 4/5 in Manhattan gets as crowded as 121.7 ppc, the 6 gets as crowded as 139.2 ppc, and the 1/9 gets as crowded as 125.3 ppc -- and you're telling me that 83.7 ppc is a ridiculously heavy load? It's a little more crowded than the Brooklyn 2/3 and the 7, but all the Manhattan IRT crossing points into the CBD are more crowded than the Brooklyn 4/5.
Unfortunatley, the Flatbush Ave terminal and the Rogers Ave. junction preclude any meaningful service increase.
On the contrary: Rogers junction can easily support 15 tph to Flatbush and 45 tph to Utica/New Lots, on condition that all passengers between the Nostrand branch and the East Side walk across the platform at Franklin. Service on the 4/5 can't be increased much if at all, simply because the tracks are mostly if not entirely filled to capacity. But if 2/3 service is increased, passengers who currently take any IRT train to remain in Brooklyn or to travel to lower Manhattan (where the two trunk lines are a few blocks apart) will gravitate toward the emptier 2/3, leaving somewhat more room on the 4/5. More importantly (since none of the Brooklyn IRT lines are terribly crowded in comparison to the Manhattan IRT lines), additional 2/3 service will reduce crowding on the West Side, especially if some trains are switched to the local tracks, where West Side crowding is at its worst, 50% worse than on the 4/5 in Brooklyn. Since the average Nostrand-Lex passenger will take whichever train comes first and transfer at Franklin in any case, and the transfer only entails walking the width of the platform, I really don't think this is too much to ask.
Where do you get these numbers, and why do they so conflict with actual experience? I'm exsperated at how so many people treat these numbers, 6 years old and obviously faulty, are treated as canon.
That being said:
On the contrary: Rogers junction can easily support 15 tph to Flatbush and 45 tph to Utica/New Lots, on condition that all passengers between the Nostrand branch and the East Side walk across the platform at Franklin. Service on the 4/5 can't be increased much if at all, simply because the tracks are mostly if not entirely filled to capacity. But if 2/3 service is increased, passengers who currently take any IRT train to remain in Brooklyn or to travel to lower Manhattan (where the two trunk lines are a few blocks apart) will gravitate toward the emptier 2/3, leaving somewhat more room on the 4/5.
This is not true in practice. For whatever reason, the East Side IRT in Brooklyn is as crowded as it is in Manhattan, and more than the West side IRT in Brooklyn, which has less service than the East side. You can try to explain it, but you can't refute it.
More importantly (since none of the Brooklyn IRT lines are terribly crowded in comparison to the Manhattan IRT lines),
That's a false assumption. It is. I'd like to hear regular Brooklyn IRT riders chime in on this as confirmation.
additional 2/3 service will reduce crowding on the West Side, especially if some trains are switched to the local tracks, where West Side crowding is at its worst, 50% worse than on the 4/5 in Brooklyn.M
I'll agree that the Flatbush Ave terminal's limited capacity screws the West side IRT riders.
Since the average Nostrand-Lex passenger will take whichever train comes first and transfer at Franklin in any case, and the transfer only entails walking the width of the platform, I really don't think this is too much to ask.
That's NOT true. I've ridden this line a lot during the AM rush. Ridership is definatley higher on the #5. Below Church Ave, many #5 riders board their trains on the SOUTHBOUND track to assure a seat, and all #5's leaving Flatbush Ave between 7 AM and 9 PM are already filled (standing and sitting). North of Church, #5 trains are so crowded that they usually do ride the 2 to Franklin, but by necessity, not desire.
Taking the #5 off of Nostrand Ave. and increasing the #2 to 15 TPH would be interesting. Spreading the line's load evenly on 15 trains may work, even though that would entail a 25% service cut. But dwell times at Franklin would be unbelievable when all the East side riders make the exodus to the 4/5.
Where do you get these numbers, and why do they so conflict with actual experience?
I gave my citation in the prior post: NYCT Operations Planning's Weekday Cordon Count 1996.
Perhaps your experience is atypical. Perhaps your recollection is biased by your opinions. Perhaps the report I cited is incorrect. In the third case, take it up with Operations Planning. In the first and second, take it up with yourself. Don't shoot the messenger. I only take responsibility for errors in arithmetic (the report only includes the number of trains, cars, and passengers; I did the division myself) and transcription.
I'm exsperated at how so many people treat these numbers, 6 years old and obviously faulty, are treated as canon.
So many people? I believe this is the first time these numbers have been presented here, and I believe your post is the first response to mine.
There is very little I treat as canon. I do lend greater credence to the detailed observations published by Operations Planning than to the opinions of one SubTalker.
This is not true in practice. For whatever reason, the East Side IRT in Brooklyn is as crowded as it is in Manhattan, and more than the West side IRT in Brooklyn, which has less service than the East side. You can try to explain it, but you can't refute it.
No, Chris, I have presented explicit numbers that support my point. You have not. You have three options: (1) present evidence that the numbers I cited are not sufficiently accurate to support my claim; (2) present evidence that, while my claim was correct in 1996, ridership and/or service patterns have shifted to the degree that it is no longer correct in 2002; (3) concede the point; or (4) maintain your claim but admit that all the evidence points against it (in which case I don't think there's any point in continuing the discussion). Your call.
That's a false assumption. It is. I'd like to hear regular Brooklyn IRT riders chime in on this as confirmation.
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Unless Brooklyn IRT riders are 50% fatter than upper Manhattan and Bronx IRT riders, the uptown 1/9 in the afternoon rush at 59th Street is more crowded than the Brooklyn-bound 4/5 in the afternoon rush at Bowling Green: 125.3 passengers per car on the 1/9 vs. 83.7 passengers per car on the 4/5.
Unless those regular Brooklyn IRT riders are also regular Manhattan IRT riders (crossing the 60th Street CBD boundary northbound in the afternoon rush), they can't make the comparison. They can confirm that the 4/5 in Brooklyn is crowded in absolute terms, and they'd be perfectly correct, but they can't compare their crowds to the crowds on a line they don't ride.
I'll agree that the Flatbush Ave terminal's limited capacity screws the West side IRT riders.
It does no such thing. Flatbush can turn about 15 tph; Utica can turn about 15 tph; New Lots can turn about 30 tph. If all 2's went to Flatbush, all 3's went to New Lots, all 4's went to Utica, and all 5's went to New Lots, at 15 tph each, service on all lines would be maximized. (Yes, 4's preparing to relay at Utica would delay through 5's. A new crossover from the express track to the local track north of Utica would solve that problem.) What limits West Side service? Each 5 train that goes to or from Flatbush crosses onto the local track at Rogers junction. Every West Side express train, whether to Flatbush or to New Lots, must also share that local track. Each 5 train to or from Flatbush fills up a slot on the West Side even though it never gets to the West Side.
That's NOT true. I've ridden this line a lot during the AM rush. Ridership is definatley higher on the #5.
I never said it wasn't. Passengers boarding at Flatbush often have the choice of a 2 train on one track and a 5 train on the other, with no accurate indication of which one will leave first, so they might as well take the one that will take them directly where they're going. But passengers boarding at stations north of Flatbush know which train is going to leave first: it's whichever train arrives first. That train will take them to Franklin (in the case of a 2), where they can get off and wait for either a 4 or a 5, whichever comes first. That saves them time.
Below Church Ave, many #5 riders board their trains on the SOUTHBOUND track to assure a seat, and all #5's leaving Flatbush Ave between 7 AM and 9 PM are already filled (standing and sitting).
Ah, the highly coveted seat. I'm afraid the seat doesn't count for much in a systemwide analysis, unless it's going to waste entirely. Will someone fill each seat on a 5 from New Lots? During rush hour, of course. Sure, it won't be someone from the Flatbush branch, but Flatbush branch passengers don't have any greater rights to seats than any other paying riders. And they have a decent chance of getting a seat at Nevins, where lots of passengers bound for the West Side will get off. (Remember that, by my plan, 50% of service south of Utica and 67% of service at Utica itself is East Side service, and East Side service is express in Brooklyn. Rather than waiting specifically for a 3, most passengers will take a 4 or 5 if it comes first and transfer at Nevins to a 2/3.)
Taking the #5 off of Nostrand Ave. and increasing the #2 to 15 TPH would be interesting. Spreading the line's load evenly on 15 trains may work, even though that would entail a 25% service cut.
Service cut? The terminal capacity at Flatbush is only about 15 tph to begin with. What I propose decreases service nowhere and increases service on the New Lots branch (where it probably isn't needed at all), at Brooklyn local stations (where it would be moderately useful), and at Manhattan and Bronx 2/3 (and perhaps 1/9) stations (where it's badly needed).
But dwell times at Franklin would be unbelievable when all the East side riders make the exodus to the 4/5.
No they wouldn't. Ever taken a southbound 1/9 to Times Square? Between the people crossing to the express, the people exiting the station, and the people transferring to other lines, I'd estimate that most passengers get off the train. As I've already established, that's a lot more passengers than you'll find on the 2 in Brooklyn, and most of them aren't just crossing the platform.
Each 4/5 train opens 30 doors at Franklin. Not many people get off the (northbound) 4/5 at Franklin. I don't think the platforms at Franklin have any major obstructions aside from the staircases.
That's NOT true. I've ridden this line a lot during the AM rush. Ridership is definatley higher on the #5.
I never said it wasn't. Passengers boarding at Flatbush often have the choice of a 2 train on one track and a 5 train on the other, with no accurate indication of which one will leave first, so they might as well take the one that will take them directly where they're going. But passengers boarding at stations north of Flatbush know which train is going to leave first: it's whichever train arrives first. That train will take them to Franklin (in the case of a 2), where they can get off and wait for either a 4 or a 5, whichever comes first. That saves them time.
Below Church Ave, many #5 riders board their trains on the SOUTHBOUND track to assure a seat, and all #5's leaving Flatbush Ave between 7 AM and 9 PM are already filled (standing and sitting).
Ah, the highly coveted seat. I'm afraid the seat doesn't count for much in a systemwide analysis, unless it's going to waste entirely. Will someone fill each seat on a 5 from New Lots? During rush hour, of course. Sure, it won't be someone from the Flatbush branch, but Flatbush branch passengers don't have any greater rights to seats than any other paying riders. And they have a decent chance of getting a seat at Nevins, where lots of passengers bound for the West Side will get off. (Remember that, by my plan, 50% of service south of Utica and 67% of service at Utica itself is East Side service, and East Side
service is express in Brooklyn. Rather than waiting specifically for a 3, most passengers will take a 4 or 5 if it comes first and transfer at Nevins to a 2/3.)
Both of these answers seem to hinge on a mythological being - the intelligent passenger. In the case of Nostrand Ave branch passengers, a large number will indeed continue to wait for a 5 train to show instead of taking the first arriving 2 and transferring at Franklin. In the second example, most people will wait for the train that takes them where they are going, not ride one and switch at Nevins. In fact, judging from experience, people changing trains at Nevins tend to be going from the Brooklyn locals (West side) to the Lex trains.
Both of these answers seem to hinge on a mythological being - the intelligent passenger. In the case of Nostrand Ave branch passengers, a large number will indeed continue to wait for a 5 train to show instead of taking the first arriving 2 and transferring at Franklin. In the second example, most people will wait for the train that takes them where they are going, not ride one and switch at Nevins. In fact, judging from experience, people changing trains at Nevins tend to be going from the Brooklyn locals (West side) to the Lex trains.
In response to someone else's claims that this was how Nostrand passengers traveled, I checked it out one afternoon rush about a year ago. I waited a long time (well, about ten minutes) at 86/Lex for a 5, which happened to be trailing a 4. Lots of empty seats in my car (the first, of course -- I stood at the window the whole way). The train never did get any more crowded than that. As we pulled into Franklin, a packed 2 was closing up across the platform -- packed, I take it, with both passengers from the West Side and rational passengers from the East Side who had come from that 4. Then the TD threw a wrench in the works and gave the lineup to the empty 5 train, which had arrived second, forcing the crowded 2 to wait in the tunnel. The intelligent passengers reached their destination after the unintelligent ones in this case, but they certainly outnumbered us unintelligent ones.
At least that's what happened on that one occasion. It may have been a unique occurrence. I haven't run the experiment a second time.
"The train never did get any more crowded than that."
You mean the first car never got more crowded.
1) You were railfanning in the first car
2) You can't see much of the rest of the train from the first car
3) You can't see much of the second car if you're glued to the railfan window on the opposite side.
The above cast doubt on the accuracy of your observations.
If people crowd into nine cars of a train but leave the tenth car empty, they deserve to be crowded.
Let's see. 59th Street has an entrance near the front of the train. 42nd Street has an entrance near the front of the train. Brooklyn Bridge has an entrance near the front of the train. Fulton Street has an entrance near the front of the train. I get confused about Wall Street since the platforms are offset, but I think it has an entrance near the front of the train. Bowling Green has an entrance near the front of the train. So why would everyone have boarded in the back of the train?
The busiest stop on the Nostrand branch (the only section of the line in Brooklyn that differs from the 4) is Flatbush Avenue. It has two exits from each platform, one around the middle and one at the very front. On most other lines I've ridden that have a popular station exit in the front, a lot of people crowd into the first car. So where were they?
I got off this 5 train at President Street (the first stop on the Nostrand branch) to return to Manhattan. As the train pulled out, I looked through the windows. I didn't see more than a dozen or so standees. Were the rest of the crowds ducking beneath the seats so I wouldn't see them?
"The train never did get any more crowded than that."
I have taken the Lex express downtown from GCT in the evening rush hour many times. The answer is that the Brooklyn-bound crowding is extremely variable. I usually get on in the front or rear car because those are least crowded. Sometimes the train is totally packed, so that at every stop many people pass the train up for the next train. Sometimes the car is very comfortable.
Complicating the crowding issue is the fact that many people get off at Fulton to transfer to the A. So the rear of the train sees a massive exodus there. It may be the case that many people have passed up the train at 14th or BB because they couldn't squeeze in, but then after Fulton it's pretty tolerable again.
I find that a lot of the 4/5 crowding comes from the Fulton St station. But, recently I've been riding the 2/3 from Nevins and I have been able to see the Bklyn crowding on the 4/5 in the AM. It seems that there is a bit of crowding after Nevins. A lot of people transfer there.
Don't forget the first car on s/b 4 trains. Everyone wants to be in the first car for Utica Ave.
Perhaps your experience is atypical. Perhaps your recollection is biased by your opinions. Perhaps the report I cited is incorrect. In the third case, take it up with Operations Planning. In the first and second, take it up with yourself. Don't shoot the messenger. I only take responsibility for errors in arithmetic (the report only includes the number of trains, cars, and passengers; I did the division myself) and transcription
My experiences cannot be atypical, because they are consistently repeated when I ride these lines at the times in question.
I never said it wasn't. Passengers boarding at Flatbush often have the choice of a 2 train on one track and a 5 train on the other, with no accurate indication of which one will leave first, so they might as well take the one that will take them directly where they're going. But passengers boarding at stations north of Flatbush know which train is going to leave first: it's whichever train arrives first. That train will take them to Franklin (in the case of a 2), where they can get off and wait for either a 4 or a 5, whichever comes first. That saves them time.
Since I have no numbers to refute these statements, I will use the "according to my extensive observations" tag on all my responses, to save time and for clarity. I'll abbreviate it as "ATMEO".
Now where was I? Oh, ATMEO, riders who board trains north of Flatbush & south of Winthrop usually do not take the #2 if they desire a Lexington Ave destination. Riders from Winthrop north usually have no other choice but the #2, as physical space on #5 trains is limited by then. At Flatbush, you have a definate slant towards the #5. I'd say 2 of every 3 paying riders who board at Flatbush use the #5.
Ah, the highly coveted seat. I'm afraid the seat doesn't count for much in a systemwide analysis, unless it's going to waste entirely. Will someone fill each seat on a 5 from New Lots? During rush hour, of course. Sure, it won't be someone from the Flatbush branch, but Flatbush branch passengers don't have any greater rights to seats than any other paying riders. And they have a decent chance of getting a seat at Nevins, where lots of passengers bound for the West Side will get off. (Remember that, by my plan, 50% of service south of Utica and 67% of service at Utica itself is East Side service, and East Side service is express in Brooklyn. Rather than waiting specifically for a 3, most passengers will take a 4 or 5 if it comes first and transfer at Nevins to a 2/3.)
I used that analogy to demonstrate the excessive crowding at Flatbush. I know of no outer borough terminals outside of Jamaica where trains leave their terminals at or near capacity. It also explains the bizarre behavior of some more northerly Nostrand Ave. IRT riders, getting on trains which run southbound to assure they'll actually be able to get on a #5 train, despite the cost in time for their commute.
Service cut? The terminal capacity at Flatbush is only about 15 tph to begin with. What I propose decreases service nowhere and increases service on the New Lots branch (where it probably isn't needed at all), at Brooklyn local stations (where it would be moderately useful), and at Manhattan and Bronx 2/3 (and perhaps 1/9) stations (where it's badly needed).
I was under the impression, and ATMEO, that there are 20 TPH leaving Flatbush Ave. during the AM rush (12 5's/8 2's). If it indeed has been changed to 12, then your idea may have even more merit than I have given it.
Better yet, that idea of building those turn around tracks south of Flatbush Ave to increase the capacity should be made more of a priority.
No they wouldn't. Ever taken a southbound 1/9 to Times Square?
Oh yeah. ATMEO, your experiences are typical. 1/9 service inadequacy is a seperate subject we would probably agree on.
Between the people crossing to the express, the people exiting the station, and the people transferring to other lines, I'd estimate that most passengers get off the train. As I've already established, that's a lot more passengers than you'll find on the 2 in Brooklyn, and most of them aren't just crossing the platform.
Yes, but dwell times would definatley increase if you remove all #5 service from Nostrand Ave. Since most of these riders want the East Side line, they'll be a mass exodus here.
Each 4/5 train opens 30 doors at Franklin. Not many people get off the (northbound) 4/5 at Franklin.
Schoolchildren do, to switch between New Lots and Flatbush Ave trains
I don't think the platforms at Franklin have any major obstructions aside from the staircases.
And all those people.
#2 leaving Flatbush Avenue, 8-9 AM weekdays:
8:01-1/2
8:08-1/2
8:13-1/2
8:19-1/2
8:26-1/2
8:34
8:41-1/2
8:50
8:58-1/2
(9 trains)
#5 leaving Flatbush Avenue, 8-9 AM weekdays:
8:03-1/2
8:10-1/2
8:16-1/2
8:22-1/2
8:30
8:36-1/2
8:44-1/2
8:52-1/2
(8 trains)
TOTAL=17 trains
David
I have in front of me passenger and train counts taken on Brooklyn-bound 4 and 5 trains each hour of the day on a weekday in 1996 at Bowling Green. (Sorry, it's old but it's all I have.)
I'll present, for each hour between 7am and 7pm, the number of passengers, the number of cars, and the number of passengers per car:
7-8: 2225 passengers / 190 cars = 11.7 ppc
8-9: 3620 / 210 = 17.2
9-10: 2474 / 220 = 11.2
10-11: 1809 / 130 = 13.9
11-12: 1719 / 70 = 24.6
12-13: 2366 / 120 = 19.7
13-14: 2900 / 100 = 29.0
14-15: 3246 / 110 = 29.5
15-16: 4519 / 100 = 45.2
16-17: 8890 / 180 = 49.4
17-18: 13825 / 230 = 60.1
18-19: 10876 / 130 = 83.7
According to this page, an R-142 has 34-40 seats. (I don't have seat counts for R-33's or R-62's, but I assume they're similar, perhaps a bit higher due to the narrower doors.)
So until 3pm, according to these numbers, everybody gets a seat, and until 5pm an average of no more than 12 passengers stand in each car. (I'm assuming that passengers will fill all seats before standing.)
Yes, I know that off-peak ridership has risen since 1996 and that service probably hasn't increased at the same rate, but I find it a little unlikely that the same trains that didn't even have standees in 1996 are now "nearly impossible to board." (Another possibility is that trains are crowded in Brooklyn and empty out by Borough Hall -- but in that case, the 2 and 3 are also available.)
I'm not interested in other systems. I'm talking about this one.
NYCT does not have a monopoly on competence. If other systems provide more trains per hour with equivalent equipment, then it is not apparant that the Lex is maxed out. It is apparant that NYCT management is maxed out.
It's already SLOOOOOOOW as it is.
There are many causes for slow operation. In this case, operating too many trains is not one.
Only 50% of the Lexington Ave's service goes to Brooklyn.
Not during rush hours - which is when these load level figures were taken.
The trains are crowded beyond belief, as badly as they're crowded in Manhattan.
"Crowded" and every other aspect of service should be quantified in order to make objective rather than subjective judgements. Personal observations that are not backed up by numbers are subject to the observers' bias. What may be adequate service to one person may seem crowded to another.
you'll just have to "take my word for it
Certainly not good enough.
I offered up the "5 to Fatbush all day" more to adress the bottleneck at Bowling Green
eliminating the fumigation policy - whose reason for adoption does not apply in this case - would do the same thing.
the need to increase midday service on the Nostrand Ave. branch
Please define the magnitude of this "need".
Does the B'way express need 18 TPH at noon?
Mid-day headways for the 2 and 3 are 8 minutes each or 4 minutes for the combined service. This works out to 15 tph.
I'm no mathematician...
No argument there. :-)
Not during rush hours - which is when these load level figures were taken.
Since when does the #6 go to Brooklyn?
"Crowded" and every other aspect of service should be quantified in order to make objective rather than subjective judgements. Personal observations that are not backed up by numbers are subject to the observers' bias. What may be adequate service to one person may seem crowded to another.
The 4/5, during rush hours in Brooklyn, is crowded. Beyond the normal crowding you'd expect. The kind of crowding which would cause people to be unable to board a train and being forced to wait for one with physical room. I can't give you numbers. But it's an inescapable, undeniable fact. Maybe people are just fatter than the specifications for a car's maximum capacity allow. Perhaps the space taken up by bags, backpacks, strollers and briefcases is not factored in. Perhaps people's rudeness in occuping more seat space than he/she needs was also not factored in. Homeless people can occupy 3-5 seats by themselves, and usually nothing is done to this offender.
Please define the magnitude of this "need".
Ride the line and see for yourself.
Mid-day headways for the 2 and 3 are 8 minutes each or 4 minutes for the combined service. This works out to 15 tph.
Aren't 2/3 midday headways at 6 TPH, or every 10 minutes? Or was this changed recently? I was not complaining that the combined 2/3 service is inadequate, just that the Nostrand Ave branch (President St. south) could use an increase.
Since when does the #6 go to Brooklyn?
The context was Lex Ave Express service. Practically all rush hour Lex Ave expresses currently go to Brooklyn. I trust this clarifies the point.
The 4/5, during rush hours in Brooklyn, is crowded...Beyond the normal crowding...crowding which would cause people to be unable to board a train...Maybe people are just fatter...I can't give you numbers...Ride the line and see for yourself.
There is a limited amount of resources that must be spread around the system. It is impossible for a single person to see for himself what the crowding is like on all lines at the same time. Therefore, meaningful metrics must be devised to make meaningful comparisons.
The TA allots approximately 4 sq ft of floor space per passenger as a service level. It uses this metric to define a service level for each car type and extends it to the entire train and to the total number of trains in a given period of time at a given point. It has counters whose function is to count the number of passengers in the car to get this metric. (There are ways to automate this count but the TA prefers labor intensive methods.) This provides a means for measuring crowding over the entire system in a uniform manner. What is your justification, if you feel that Nostrand Ave passengers deserve more consideration over the other passengers?
Aren't 2/3 midday headways at 6 TPH, or every 10 minutes? Or was this changed recently?
One could look at the schedules to try to determine what midday headways are. Current schedules show that they are every 8 minutes on the 2 and 3 lines. Schedules from November 2000 show the same thing.
the Nostrand Ave branch (President St. south) could use an increase [during middays].
Are the trains overly crowded or is a 4 minute average waiting time intolerable?
The context was Lex Ave Express service. Practically all rush hour Lex Ave expresses currently go to Brooklyn. I trust this clarifies the point.
You forget the fact that Manhattan East side riders have the option of using the #6. If you want the East side from Brooklyn, it's the 4 or 5 for you.
There is a limited amount of resources that must be spread around the system. It is impossible for a single person to see for himself what the crowding is like on all lines at the same time. Therefore, meaningful metrics must be devised to make meaningful comparisons.
The TA allots approximately 4 sq ft of floor space per passenger as a service level. It uses this metric to define a service level for each car type and extends it to the entire train and to the total number of trains in a given period of time at a given point. It has counters whose function is to count the number of passengers in the car to get this metric. (There are ways to automate this count but the TA prefers labor intensive methods.) This provides a means for measuring crowding over the entire system in a uniform manner. What is your justification, if you feel that Nostrand Ave passengers deserve more consideration over the other passengers?
I'm not singling out one line. I'm attacking the statistics, since your calculations conflict with actual experience. Something's not being considered, or their is a flaw in the process.
Are the trains overly crowded or is a 4 minute average waiting time intolerable?
Compared to the #3, which runs on an equal headway, the #2, running every 8 minutes out of Flatbush, is considerably more crowded coming into Franklin than the #3 is coming into Utica. Granted, it's not the biggest problem in the system (both IRT local routes need even bigger service increases IMHO), but it's still excessive in comparison to other comparable lines.
I'm attacking the statistics, since your calculations conflict with actual experience.
Perhaps, one could put credence in your "actual experience", if you could count the number of people in each car.
Interesting.
Please note that funding has not yet been allocated for a new South Ferry station.
Here's a Link to the story about VIA Rail ordering a new High Speed Rail, when you open the link and see the picture, Don't be surprised, LOL.
VIA Rail High Speed Project
The article mentions certain communities losing service.
I take it conventional trains will be curtailed (meaning the Viafast train will not be running on a new dedicated track.
3 Billion dollars is what is goin into the project.Via rail Canada is the sucker into BOMBARDIER'S MADDNESS.MADNESS I MEAN THE RED ACELA.OR FAKE ACELA AS SOME PEOPLE CALL IT.VIA RAIL IS IN FOR A BIG SURPRISE.HELL IS WHAT IT IS.BOMBARDIER CANT GET ANYTHING RIGHT.BUT MAYBE THEY WILL GET THIS RIGHT SINCE THEY BEEN WORKIN ON IT FOT SEVERAL YEARS.VIA RAIL I URGE YOU TO PICK ANOTHER COMPANY.
A.M.L
BACK IN THE MIX
Come on, tell us what you really think...
:0)
WHAT I REALLY THINK IS THAT BOMBARDIER IS THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE IT KNOWN TO THE WORLD is that they cant make anything.1st the R142s.2nd acela express and HHP-8,3rd AIRTRAIN,4th FAKE ACELA.CAN THEY DO ANYTHING ELSE WRONG.THEY CAN LET ME TAKE OVER THERE COMPANY.
A.M.L
BACK IN THE MIX
Maybe you should check some anger management classes?
Already took those classes.Sorry.Those classes dont work.AND PLEASE THIS MY THOUGHTS.I HATE BOMBARDIER NOW.I HATE VIA RAIL.I love MTA.BUT JUST hate Companys that make half ass shit.
A.M.L
BACK IN THE MIX
I haven't seen any reports linking the airtrain crash to the airtrain itself. Besides, the same rail vehicle (SkyTrain Mark II) has been in use in Vancouver, BC for over a year with no problems. Its predecessor (the Mark I) performs quite well too.
Perhaps Bombardier's problems are recent. The Acela problems are unfortunate, but isn't it the heaviest high-speed electric train in the world? It's the first of its kind.
You're forgetting that their stuff actually works up here.
-Robert King
O yeah because they are fuckin racsits.THEY MAKE AMERICAN SHIT HALF ASS.AND THEY MAKE CANADIAN STUFF TOP NOUCH.
A.M.L
BACK IN THE MIX
And you're such a shining example of an upstanding American, obviously educated in our fine public school system. I can't imagine why those barbaric Canadians would dislike us.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
NO.I GO TO MOUNT SAINT MICHEAL.A PRIVATE SCHOOL.IN THE BRONX IF YOU DON'T KNOW.Im just sayin they could have made all the rail products and they are half ass products.R142s messed up,acela messed up,and now this crap.
A.M.L
FUTURE ENGINEER
NO.I GO TO MOUNT SAINT MICHEAL.A PRIVATE SCHOOL.IN THE BRONX IF YOU DON'T KNOW.Im just sayin they could have made all the rail products and they are half ass products.R142s messed up,acela messed up,and now this crap.
Hmmm...Perhaps I should re-consider my support for vouchers after this.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Now Available!
You support MOUNT SAINT MICHEAL.Are you alumi that they always talking about.If you are keep up the good work.Anyway my word still stands as Bombardier is nothing but crap these days.But i will give them props for coming out and fixing the R142 and acela express.But that should have never happen in the first place.
A.M.L
GET IT STRAIGHT
NO.I GO TO MOUNT SAINT MICHEAL.A PRIVATE SCHOOL.IN THE BRONX IF YOU DON'T KNOW...
In that case, I hope your parents are saving their receipts.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
Ok.I am on the HONOR ROLL.I am sorry i am very mad.
A.M.L
GOING YOUR WAY
I don't even see how racisim could possibly used as an explanation. To start with, you don't cross the border either way and encounter a different race.
Bombardier's equipment actually works up here, so I'm inclined to believe that if a high speed service is instituted between Windsor and Montreal using their equipment, that it would work. What I'm not inclined to believe is that this service is going to be put in place any time soon, given the federal government's lack of attitude of any kind towards transportation.
-Robert King
You make a good point.Canada was planing to make highspeed rail for a long time.I think VIA RAIL SHOULD SAVE ITS MONEY AND TIME AND GO TO ANOTHER COMPANY
A.M.L
BACK IN THE MIX
The Montreal-Windsor high speed line has been talked about on and off for about three decades, from what I know. Chances are that the latest is just more talk and with respect to Via's money, what money are you talking about? They're like any other public transportation up here - they haven't got any!
-Robert King
Will did you read acela expresses link.$3 billion.Go back and look at it.
A.M.L
Catch the WAVE
Well did you read acela expresses link.$3 billion.Go back and look at it.
A.M.L
Catch the WAVE
The Canadians have always been willing to try some new technology, e.g. UA Turbos, etc.
I want to thank Dave Pirmann for kindly posting the announcement of a new essay contest on the upcoming events page, for which I serve as competition director. This contest is sponsored by the Philadelphia Education Fund, a United Way- member agency in Philadelphia. Flyers/application packets will be available in public high schools in Phila. later this week.
The top prize is a paid, mentored, summer internship at SEPTA in the summer of 2003. The deadline for submission of essays is April 1, 2003. The winner will be announced in May.
SEPTA, like any large transit agency, offers work areas beyond train operator, bus operator, mechanic, and ticket office cashier. There is accounting, public relations, finance, human resources etc. The placement of the intern will depend on the intern's interests and what is worked out with his/her mentor.
There is also a health-care question; the winning health-care essayist will intern at St. Cheristopher's Hospital for Children, an affiliate of Drexel University College of Medicine. Details are available on the contest flyer, which will be available at the high schools later this week.
Private school students and those outside the Philadelphia school district are not eligible.
If any of you know a student interested in transportation, beginning his/her senior year at a Philadelphia public high school, I hope you can encourage him or her to apply.
Students beginning their senior year who are US citizens, will turn 18 years of age by June 15, 2003, and have at least a B average in their classes are welcome to apply. They are invited to submit a 5-7 page (double-spaced) essay answering the transportation question posed by the Philadelphia Education Fund.
During the gubernatorial debate yesterday, Gov. Pataki revealed his action plan for averting an MTA fare hike: by improving service, you can attract more riders, and with them more revenue to cover the system's costs.
Any questions?
I don't think it would work. People drawn to using their cars are not going to start using TA because someone told them service is better, {if that someone even notices that service is better.}
I beg to differ. Ten years ago, the CTA was in shambles. Service was being regularly slashed, the infrastructure was suffering from deferred maintenance, and it seemed like there was another fare hike every six months.
That gradually began to change as the CTA began to improve its service, clean up and renovate its infrastructure, purchase new railcars and busses, and overhaul the existing fleet. The system is still far from perfect, but it's no longer the basketcase it once was. As a result of these improvements, ridership has increased significantly, and it's been years since the last fare hike.
Actually, the biggest problem facing the CTA now is how to accomodate all these extra riders, as many routes are now packed to capacity. But that's a good problem to have, as opposed to constantly cutting service due to lack of ridership.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
>>> Ten years ago, the CTA was in shambles. Service was being regularly slashed, the infrastructure was suffering from deferred maintenance, and it seemed like there was another fare hike every six months. <<<
When a transit system is in really bad shape, improvements will bring additional customers, but if it is already operating well, additional improvement will not attract that many new riders.
Tom
True, and even though the NYCTA is an overall excellent system these days, I think we can all agree there's still plenty of room for improvement.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
And improvements are being made. Has anyone heard the commercials that the MTA is making on the radio? They include subway, MN, and LIRR upgrades.
But it might make people more apt to take the bus or subway than a cab, which is usually faster but always more expensive.
I think the key to making that work is to attract more riders to use the system during off peak periods. At such times (mid-day, nights, weekends and overnights) the trains and busses are running with empty seats (most times). If more people will pay to use the system at those times you can get more dollars for very little to no cost increase. Now if you attract more rush hour riders (also a good thing in general, but not something that will work to help avoid a fare hike as the system is at or above capacity durning rush hours and additional riders will require additional service) you are not helping to avoid a fare increase. I'm not sure you can attract enough off peak riders to avoid a fare increase, but maybe you can keep the increase to 25 cents rather than 50 cents.
Comments.............
I think the key to making that work is to attract more riders to use the system during off peak periods. At such times (mid-day, nights, weekends and overnights) the trains and busses are running with empty seats (most times). If more people will pay to use the system at those times you can get more dollars for very little to no cost increase. Now if you attract more rush hour riders (also a good thing in general, but not something that will work to help avoid a fare hike as the system is at or above capacity durning rush hours and additional riders will require additional service) you are not helping to avoid a fare increase. I'm not sure you can attract enough off peak riders to avoid a fare increase, but maybe you can keep the increase to 25 cents rather than 50 cents.
Higher rush-hour fares are a slight but not nonexistent possibility. They make economic sense, to a degree, and other transit systems have had them for years. Implementing these fares in New York would involve some practical and political difficulties, and it could be argued that they can be inequitable in many cases (as many rush-hour riders have no choice but to travel during peak times.) Even so, I would not completely dismiss the possibility.
>>> Higher rush-hour fares are a slight but not nonexistent possibility <<<
Or as the PR flacks would state it, a general increase of fares, but with discounts to the present level for non rush hour travel.
Tom
I, personally, would love off-hour pricing. For purely selfish reasons.
Peace,
ANDEE
The best type of reason there is.
I just hope that after the fare increase, the subway is covering its operating costs (as in, say, 1997) and the Pataki administration is prepared to admit it. Lets face it, without this its going to be deferred maintenance and service cuts (we might get them anyway).
That's the only bright side to the reorganization. Tabulate data for the subways separately from the buses. The only way the subways don't make money is if bus transfers are credited solely to the bus, rather than split.
I just hope that after the fare increase, the subway is covering its operating costs (as in, say, 1997) and the Pataki administration is prepared to admit it. Lets face it, without this its going to be deferred maintenance and service cuts (we might get them anyway).
That's the only bright side to the reorganization. Tabulate data for the subways separately from the buses. The only way the subways don't make money is if bus transfers are credited solely to the bus, rather than split.
Personally, again for budget transperency sake, I'd probably group bus lines that link to the subway, and run in places where there is no subway, with the subway itself.
You could take it one step further. How about if someone says that instead of a general fare increase, fares will instead be zoned as to how far one travels.
If the MTA is serious about shaking itself up, that is not entirely out of the question, except in the outer boroughs whose residents stand to lose big under such a system.
You could take it one step further. How about if someone says that instead of a general fare increase, fares will instead be zoned as to how far one travels.
Like peak fares, zoned fares are used in some transit systems, the DC Metro in particular. Using them in New York would be politically difficult because of the "one city one fare" policy that's been promoted for the past several years. Note that the DC Metro doesn't have that problem because the system operates in Maryland and Virginia as well as in the District.
In addition, implementing zoned fares in New York would require exit swipes, which could lead to unacceptable crowding at many stations absent major reconstruction.
While I won't say that New York will never have zoned fares, it's a reasonable bet that peak fares are more likely.
Zoned fares would be good... I no longer would be annoyed at spending $3.00 to got to White Castle two stops away. If it still costs $3.00, but costs $5 r/t to Manhattan, I would be quite happy.
The very embodiment of "It's all relative".
>>> I no longer would be annoyed at spending $3.00 to got to White Castle two stops away. If it still costs $3.00, but costs $5 r/t to Manhattan <<<
If it would make you feel any better, you could find a White Castle in Manhattan to go to instead of the one two stops away. :-)
Tom
I no longer would be annoyed at spending $3.00 to got to White Castle two stops away.
Are you trying to say that satisfying your wormburger fix isn't worth three bucks??
Actually, I think you can squeeze the last seat out of NYC transit with a little capital investment:
- Put housing and employment in the boroughs, for reverse commuting;
- Build a bunch of new circumferential lines;
- Require slower, hydrogen-based automobile travel so more people use trains.
NOW we can talk about keeping the fares level and getting a few more riders for almost no extra operating expense. Just a little teeny bit of capital investment is all.
- Require slower, hydrogen-based automobile travel so more people use trains.
This is a horrible idea.
I don't know what you mean by "slower, hydrogen-based automobile travel" but if you're talking about fuel cells, those cars aren't slower.
This is sort of like trying to destroy someone's success because you're a loser instead of making yourself successful. The way to encourage transit is to improve itself so that it looks better than other modes, not by lowering other modes so that people lose the better option.
I was trying to think of the three most impossible ideas I could come up with for the highest price. Stanton had already figured out that lower prices wouldn't get more riders. I was trying to figure out how to throw away all the rest of our money on useless schemes.
The major obstical the causes people to not use the subway and bus system overnights is that due to the larger headways it takes significantly longer to get where you need to go especially if you need to change trains
In my case to get from 78th street and central park west to Kings highway on the brighton overnight will take 2-3 hours due to having to wait for the the west side local to 32nd street to change for the q each with 20 min headways not to mention waiting for the b3 bus to finish my journey
Will opt to driver in.
The solution is simple.
Run half train opto on all lines overnights. Run 1 addional train per hour cutting down the wait. And best of all the service will cost less to operate than the current service. The problem is the waiting for transfers. The increaesed operating time due to OPTO is acceptable to the riding public
The major obstical the causes people to not use the subway and bus system overnights is that due to the larger headways it takes significantly longer to get where you need to go especially if you need to change trains
In my case to get from 78th street and central park west to ave u on the brighton overnight will take 2-3 hours due to having to wait for the the west side local to 32nd street to change for the q each with 20 min headways not to mention waiting for the b3 bus to finish my journey
Will opt to driver in.
The solution is simple.
Run half train opto on all lines overnights. Run 1 addional train per hour cutting down the wait. And best of all the service will cost less to operate than the current service. The problem is the waiting for transfers. The increaesed operating time due to OPTO is acceptable to the riding public
Smoke - Mirrors - Wishful Thinking
If he wants fantasy... he should join us on Subtalk....
At least *we* know what will work and what will not!
Elias
[Smoke - Mirrors - Wishful Thinking]
Or to put it another way ... I won't cover the cost out of the State budget, so you better find a way to do it out of the farebox, i.e. more riders or increase the fare.
This is the same thing he did when he came into office.
The fare is going to go up, it's just a matter of when not if.
More riders requires more service. Since fares don't cover 100% of the costs of a ride, more serice means more $$$ needed. In a disturbing twist, you could increase revenues by having LESS patronage.
Pataki was blowing smoke. I'm a huge supporter of his and a fellow republican, but the only way to truly avert a fare hike without service cuts is to revisit how the state distributes it's mass transit funds. There's an excellent editorial about this subject on the Daily News's op-ed page.
Get more off peak riders by doing with the private bus lines (like Queens Surface) do, charge lower fares off peak and the regular fare peak(it could work on buses at least) like a 1.00 fare on all NYCT buses off peak.
The "privates" do a lot of business on the week-ends in large part because it's off-peek all day Sat. & Sun.
Maybe if he raised tolls into town only during peak hours he'd get more people to take the train. kinda like raising cigerette taxes to the point where you just have to be stupid to endure paying that much.
[by improving service, you can attract more riders, and with them more revenue to cover the system's costs.]
Yes, but Pataki knows (because he has people who are paid to know these things for him) that EVERY public transit agency loses money on EVERY passenger carried. In NYCT's case, every additional $1.50 ride costs at lest $2.50 to provide, hence the loss.
What Pataki's really saying is, "Pay your own way, because I plan to continue diverting the city's portion of the sales-tax-for-transit funds to upstate interests." Once again, he's punishing us city-folk for not voting for him, and proving that he's the Governor of Upstate New York.
>>> every additional $1.50 ride costs at lest $2.50 to provide <<<
You don't really believe that do you? If you are planning to go to Coney Island, and you tell a friend to come along, you cannot possibly believe the TA's cost increased $2.50 because he/she joined you on the trip.
IF (and it's a big IF) service can be improved without adding costs, then more riders can be attracted to the system, and the system will become more self supporting. How to accomplish that objective is one of the most challenging things facing TA management, and they might not be able to rise to the challenge.
Tom
>>You don't really believe that do you?<<
and why is such a statistic not credible? That would be a 60% farebox recovery ratio EXTREMELY good in the US. Most systems are more like 30%. BTW I believe the methodologies for these computations are farly uniform as they are used for FTA grants.
Given the efficiency of train loading, and the eagle-eyed fare collection on the commuter rail, it will take magic to increase the recovery rate. IMHO the solution is off topic for SubTalk: (1) stop subsidizing Upstate or (2) invent a new technology.
I beg to differ. Fare collection on rail transit seems on topic to me. As to means, with the "no contact smart card" systems being introduced in many areas whose readers can "see" you as you enter or leave the train or station depending on deployment, we have a whole new ballgame here. Systems like the T, Metra, LIRR, MNCR can become much more like PATH/mass transit as crews need only operate the trains safely with no responsibility for fare collection This may raise the hackles of the current workforce, but like unto the individual door openers on Manhattan EL's in the 1890's. life has moved on.
I stand corrected here; that part of the technology I hadn't thought about. I think it only provides a small increase from 60% farebox recovery (see thread below on marginal revenues), but ANYTHING reducing labor cost is cool. I was talking about totally different dreamworld technology. I wish I knew more about labor resistance to reducing crew size on existing type trains.
>>> and why is such a statistic not credible? <<<
Because as used, it demonstrated a lack of understanding of statistics. If at a given level of riders, a system is recovering $1.00 less than its costs from the fare box per rider, increasing the number of riders without changing costs will not make the total deficit larger it will reduce it so the system at some point will be recovering 99¢, then 98¢ less than its costs per rider. So it is incorrect to say that each additional $1.50 fare costs $2.50.
Tom
Economics 101: there is a difference between average cost and marginal cost.
The average operating cost per rider on the subway was $1.25 in 2000, according to the national transit database, with capital costs adding perhaps another 50 cents.
The cost of the added rider is the marginal cost, not the average cost. To avoid ridiculousness, you have to think of a group of added riders rather than one.
The cost of the added riders off peak, when vehicles aren't full, is low -- just a little extra power and a split second extra delay in the station while boarding and alighting. Or moderate, if more trains will need to be run -- though this is also a boost in service for everyone because the waits are shorter.
The cost of added riders at rush hour is higher, if more riders will require more trains to be run, purchased and maintained. The cost of added riders on the Lexington Avenue line is...the cost of the Second Avenue Subway.
If as I believe the farebox numbers for most US systems are an averaged figure. My point was and remains that a 60% farebox number is very good in US terms. As to how one interprets the incremental addition of individual riders, this is the perrenial game
of which figures are counted which ignored. How do you account the incrased cost of electricity to haul one average human one average lengh trip (remember the increased load on the AC)? What is the incremental cost of one more "use " of a faregate thus hastening its repair cycle? Without this level of detail, one might assume that new riders in off hours are "free" but in fact they too increase costs.
>>>Without this level of detail, one might assume that new riders in off hours are "free" but in fact they too increase costs. <<<
Of course there is a marginal cost increase for each additional rider, but it is negligible when compared to the $1.50 marginal revenue increase. From their posts, some posters seem to believe each additional rider causes a net loss to the TA.
Tom
Right on, Tom. The marginal cost of adding one more passenger to a train is negligible; moreover trains have a large capacity. This is what allows the subway to break even once a critical mass of ridership is achieved.
This is harder to do than with buses. Buses (of current design; I won't discuss hybrid buses) are more energy inefficient than trains; while the marginal cost of a single rider is still very low, an additional bus is needed sooner than an additional train or even an additional train car, which involves additional personnel and higher fuel consumption etc.
Ingenious concept - check it out!
(www.zipcar.com if the stupid hyperlink doesn't work again).
What caught my eye was a poster on an R-46 F train the other day that said something like
"360 hours per year having sex
420 hours looking for parking
What's wrong with this picture?"
You have to put a space between A and HREF
GOOD:
<A HREF
BAD:
<AHREF
Just to keep things clear and unconfused, my membership at the Ontario Electric Electric Railway Association (Halton County Radial Railway) lapsed yesterday, and I have decided not renew it so I am no longer a member of that group.
-Robert King
Any particular reason?
Most museums need all the help they can get.
Yes, there is and I'll explain it completely:
I'd been thinking about joining Halton since late 1999. Finally, after a very rough false start, just before I actually did join the museum a year ago, when I was still thinking about whether or not to do it based on previous expirence looking into it and the very limited finances (was downsized from summer job along with about 20 other people three weeks in) I had at the time, I came up with an idea that seemed like a good compromise.
Since the regular membership costs $60, I figured out what kind of benefits of being a member at the museum I'd value at $60. I don't visit often enough so that the cost of a membership is lower than that for the admission in total, the contents of the newsletter are put on the website and visible to the public free of charge, so they don't make a compelling argument for a membership.
However, I'd be happy to pay $60 and be piloted on streetcars once or twice a year (like the way the Branford people get untrained people running equipment eg. the people given a crack at the R9 yesterday or the Fall Day deal). Also, the opening of Members' Only events and being able to do restoration/maintainance work on some of the vehicles I've always liked weighed heavily, too, but not quite as importantly, as the framework for deciding whether or not to continue. This framework also keeps unquantifiable matters out of the decision making process.
So, on the Sunday of last year's Thanksgiving weekend, I plunked down the $60 for the regular membership, having decided to join for a year, to see how the theoretical benefits of being a member compare with those encountered in practice, whether or not the three most important benefits I've listed above were realised, and just in general how it went.
This is how the main membership benefits I mentioned above broke down over the one year trial period I established:
3 - access to Members' Only events: There were none held during the year I was a member. This includes the Members' Day type things held at other museums - Halton doesn't have one of these, or any other members' only events. I was watching the website and the newsletter closely for the announcement of such events so I know I didn't miss any through inattention.
2 - working on vehicles: My first job over the summer had rigidly set hours, Monday through Friday only, due to a union agreement. I took advantage of this and offered to work on the equipment out of the museum. I heard nothing back at all from anybody except for one reply from one person saying that their own job precluded them from being at the museum on weekends. All other inquiries went unanswered so I never got to work on anything. Thus being able to volunteer at the museum became a nonissue when I changed jobs to one that had really wild operating hours.
1 - occasional operating of vehicles: As I mentioned above, being able to take a streetcars under instruction after hours for a trip on the line once or twice a year is the biggest, most important thing that really makes being a member worthwhile. Over the past year, whenever I've been out at Halton through the end of the day, I'd ask if I could take a streetcar for a trip on the line under instruction. And every time the answer has been no. Hell, I was even there on my birthday since the place is near the city where some relatives live, these people knew it was my birthday as I'd said so when I explained why I was setting up the route signs on PCC 4600 for the 'King' line and they knew I was a member and I still got flatly turned down that day when I asked. Also, being piloted on a streetcar during Members' Day is clearly out of the question because there isn't one, as I already mentioned.
So, on Sunday, I was at Halton at the end of the day with the membership renewal form and the $60 fee ready to go in the binder I always have in my pack. And, after riding with another member on a training run at the end of the day, I asked one last time: Can I operate this streetcar? I got the same answer again and my one year Halton membership concluded at that point without any of the three items I listed being fulfilled. Since there's just absolutely no point in being a member, as far as I'm concerned, I've decided not to renew. If I'm going to spend $60 on this hobby, I have a choice in how it's spent: I can either spend it every year being a member of Halton or I can spend it on something enjoyable like travel, fan trips, film, or put it towards a slide scanner or spend it outside this hobby. Lastly, I'm just not in any financial position where I can afford to spend money because it's nice and good and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over and contributes to wonderful things like streetcar restorations without being able to justify the expenditure by having at least some positive, quantifible benefit to me as well.
So I'm no longer a member.
-Robert King
Rob, I hope you have detailed your concerns in a letter to the Halton board. Perhaps someone will wake up, pay attention, and address the issues... if not, at least you will have done your part.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rob, A very sad story indeed !
Museums in general need every member they can get, and to find amoung them some who are willing & able to help preserve the equipment should not be discouraged.
I agree with Anon-E-mouse's comments, write them.
At Branford we have one "official" day when un-trained members can operate the equipment, but there are many other times when a member is there on a slow day that the crew is happy to pilot them down the line. The basic rule is that we can't do this if we have any other "guests" on board. The crew member also has to be quilified to be a pilot, but many are.
For the life of me I don't understand the attitude at Halton. It's a labor of love for me, so part of it is shareing with others.
Ugh. Doesn't sound like a happy situation for anyone involved. I would agree that you should write a letter to the Halton board, and if you're as reasoned as this post indicates you will surely find a sympathetic ear.
IRM has had problems like this, i.e. not being very attuned to new members. If you want to start working here, you've either got to know who to talk to or be VERY persistent. We've had a big problem with people offering to work and never being called back. Fortunately, we do have a Members Day event (although it was renamed "Museum Showcase Weekend" because non-members thought they weren't supposed to come out that weekend!) during which there's a members-only dinner and some members-only nighttime operation (which is a lot of fun, believe me). In the past we've also had "controller twister night" where members can operate piloted equipment, but this isn't always in the schedule for one reason or another.
All I can hope is that if the Halton board listens to your story and is sympathetic - not guaranteed, but I'm guessing they will be - that you can at least chalk up this bad experience to a few individuals and not to the Museum as a whole.
Frank Hicks
Your comments are right on point. $60.00 a year for a single membership seems a little steep, even with the difference between Canadian and US currency.
I would strongly recommend you follow Anon_e_mouse's advice to contact the OERHS Board directly. Something is very wrong at Halton.
At BSM we don't allow members who are not qualified to operate in revenue service, but will allow a member who is obviously interested to operate under supervision on a non-revenue car (usually after public operations end for the day).
Our membership rates are $30.00 for a Single and $40.00 for a Family.
..."At BSM we don't allow members who are not qualified to operate in revenue service, but will allow a member who is obviously interested to operate under supervision on a non-revenue car (usually after public operations end for the day)"...
At BSM, they will extend the courtesy to members of other museums to
operate their equipment under supervision on a non-revenue car[s]
after public operations. Who better to confirm, then the guest
operator, who recently operated the PCC, the Peter Witt and a
Armstrong Car. This was on my first visit ever to the "Baltimore
Streetcar Museum". Thank you Dan Lawrence and the "trade meister".
I've also operated at RTM, with my membership pending. More so on
an evening run sandwiched between two revenue cars, with a pilot.
And the Snowplow with the K-37 controller and train air was quite
a unique experience. Thank you Joel Solomon.
In August, a group of us visited another Trolley Museum, where one
of our group was a member/operator and were bluntly refused any
after hours handle time. But yet others on site escorted us to
non-public viewing areas and were most gracious hosts.
At Seashore, they will try and locate an Instructor to pilot you
on their line and if possible, provide a car you've would like to
run.
Well at TMNY, I recently renewed for another year. Hopefully
they'll institute some form of communication with the membership.
The base membership is $25 US for a family and I've been a member
since 1977. Always hoping they get it together. Next season,
I'll have to get on site and see if I can get to operate JTC 358,
even though its diesel powered. We'll see.
Uh Oh, I'm ranting and one of my sayings while Dispatching at BERA,
"Excessive Verbiage".
;| ) Sparky
I've also been extended the courtesy at Illinois Railway Museum, Western Railway Museum, and Orange Empire when I told them I was an Instructor at Seashore.
As I understand it, at IRM (I'm talking electric cars here) anyone qualified on a particular car is qualified as a pilot on that car. Furthermore, they can pilot anyone at all - the person being piloted don't have to be a member of IRM or any other museum. This tends to be useful in such situations as having an old motorman visit who has a better idea of how to run the car than you do! (Of course, they've never run the line.) This does not apply in regular service, though - in general you're not supposed to be piloting anyone when you're carrying passengers, and especially not a non-IRM member.
Frank Hicks
The IRM treated the SubTalk Chicago Field Trip group VERY well last year. A quote from SubTalk Chicago Field Trip Report:
"A couple of the guys got off and took photos of car 30, and then we all got back on and took the car out to the end of the line and back a couple times, using the pan. (Normally the pans don't mix well with the museum trolley wire, but it's less of an issue out on the mainline.) During this whole process, each of us who so desired got some time at the controller, and got the car up to about 40 MPH or so each time. This was not an experience any of us will soon forget!"
They were extremely courteous at BSM when I visited in August.
Dan Lawrence and Ed Amhrein practically refused to let me go
until I had run each of the 3 cars out that day!
Now having read all the replies to this post, I'm really wondering for the love of Pete why Halton has to be so rigidly inflexibile. And to the members, no less.
There is one thing I should make clear and it's that I've never asked to operate a streetcar with passengers aboard - just one round trip on the line after hours is all I've asked for.
As an update: I have been working on a letter but it's coming rather slowly. Hopefully I'll have better luck at getting a reply to it than the president of the TTS did with his some time ago. I'll let you all know how it goes as things progress at this end.
-Robert King
Actually I think what you posted here lays it out rather well. Bear in mind that museums ARE "educational institutions" and like some SCHOOLS, some are more ANAL than others. In a place where administrivia rules, you get the mindset that you encountered up there. Damned shame that Branford's so far away (it's hell and gone from HERE where I am and it amounts to a haj (pilgrimage) for us too) but of all the museums I've followed, I'm *GLAD* that it was Branford that I decided to join. What a WONDERFUL bunch of folks they are and *SO* deserving of whatever I can muster to pitch in for them!
But yes, you might want to review your post here as fodder for telling them precisely where to insert their brake handle and which orientation of it will release the most air. :)
In general I think when you join one or two museums you avoid bashing or stealing staff from any of the others, but some like Halton need to wake up & smell the roses.
Or at least, so it would seem, the tailpipe. :)
hey man i cant see ur email i guess u keepin it LP(low profile) and i dont blame you. use my email and email me if u want or post and respond. thanx this is MTA metro North man from last week
The print version in the NY Post had some nice renderings,
http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/59517.htm
Jay Kriegel was Mayor Lindsay's "wunerkind". The cast for Olympics 2012 is a cast of Republican retreads and hangers on.
"retreads and hangers on"
There enough real things wrong (IMHO) with Republicans w/o resorting to the use of pejoratives. There is nothing wrong with having experience. An empty complaint like this just makes you and the rest of us look bad.
I was eating in a Subway resturant in the Bronx today, and they had an old subway map interlaced with NYC buildings on the wall. Beautiful. Do all Subway sandwich shops have this? Also, was the chain named as a play on words for the "sub"marine sandwich? Anyhow, they're sandwiches are great. :)
I've seen some subway's resturant that have the old wall subway maps decorated on them. Fancy isn't it!
All the "Subway" restaurants have those subway maps. I have eaten subway in California, and they had them, and in Florida also. It is an old map though, because they all have the Myrtle Ave el on them, as well as the Manhattan els. It's kind of weird seeing "Knickerbocker Ave", etc on the wall when in another state like California.
As for the "sub" play on words - I'm sure that is what it is.
>>> All the "Subway" restaurants have those subway maps. <<<
And they have changed them from time to time, but have always kept the theme.
Tom
I dont think ive ever seen a map on the wall of a Subway that included all divisions. If you pay close attention, IIRC the BMT maps don't include IND or IRT, etc...
The Lexington El is even on the BMT one.
Actually, that is correct. Although I think I remember seeing the Manhattan Els on one, I don't think it was the same one that had the BMT map. Most of the wallpaper in the subway stores does include a very old BMT map. As mentioned it has the Lexington El on it, and the Myrtle el. IIRC, it's so old that Seneca on the M line is even called "Covert Ave", and there is an "Evergreen Ave" station between Central and Myrtle on the wallpaper.
Hero sandwich are called 'subs" outside of NYC. If you ask for a meatball hero in Washington (for example) you get a blank look on the guy/gal face.
The CT based firm has stores all over the USA.
Try asking an associate in a Pennsylvania store what the BMT in the BMT Sandwich stands for.
You won't believe what kind of stories you will get.
Made that mistake Sunday in CT. The waitress corrected me, guess she's seen a few New Yorkers before :-)
Heh, even the ones in Canada have the NYC subway map decor. Most people don't know what subway that is though.
And in London too -- on our subtalkers London railfan trip last month we had lunch in the Subway in Earls Court and admired the wallpaper.
Yeah they have that guy who ate there and lost 200 lbs. In any country other than this, that would not be a good reflection on the establishment. If you had a fat guy making ads for a restaurant in Afghanistan or Somalia talking about how he got fat at this place, they'd be flocking to it like feathers on a goose. But I digress...
It would be interesting to look for errors in the map... say, the Sea Beach line isn't running to Stillwell due to the reconstruction but your map says it is... I think I deserve a free lunch for the emotional trauma it has inflicted on me!
It would be interesting to look for errors in the map... say, the Sea Beach line isn't running to Stillwell due to the reconstruction but your map says it is... I think I deserve a free lunch for the emotional trauma it has inflicted on me!
lol. Yeah, and seeing that the Myrtle and Lexington Els are still on the map also, I guess there will be some lost people hanging out waiting for trains at the Gates Ave platform on the J, waiting for the Lexington El train to come.
>>> I guess there will be some lost people hanging out waiting for trains at the Gates Ave platform on the J, waiting for the Lexington El train to come. <<<
At one time they included drawings of Beach's pneumatic subway, but I guess that was too esoteric for most of their customers.
Tom
I've eaten at Subway MANY times when going to community college out in Bumblefuckland. There are TWO styles of maps used in Subway resturants, only one or the other is used in a store.
One style has articles about the opening of the IRT subway, drawings of the Beach Pneumatic Subway, and a subway map of Manhattan showing the KK line with Cyrstie St.
The other has maps of old Brooklyn mines like the Myrtle, the Franklin when it was a mainline operation, and some others I don't know about, along with NYC buildings repeated in a pattern.
>>> There are TWO styles of maps used in Subway resturants, only one or the other is used in a store. <<<
The one with the drawing of the Beach pneumatic subway is the older version. The local Subway had that wallpaper originally and it was replaced later with the other style.
Tom
Actually, down in Mississippi at the end of July, I ate at a Subway in a gas station that had a pre-Dual Contracts BRT map on the wall...it was a map with the removed Broadway line stations like Park Ave., Evergreen Ave. and Cozert Ave. (on the Myrtle) etc.
Couldn't believe it, the girl at the counter was looking at me like I was crazy because I looked at it and laughed at the juxtaposition.
Next time, the MTA should use this as proof to disregard chinatown residents and businessmen's word and complaints about the way the MTA runs the subway. Picture taken by ME with Olympus C-3000z at Chambers Street on the JMZ, a train didn't just come as I heard NOTHING as I walked the mezzanine from the 6 to the JMZ. Spooky, ain't it?
But this isn't very close to chinatown. You should take a picture of Canal on the JMZ or even Bowery. Canal on Bowery seems to be used more for its exit than an actual station where people board trains. (compared to the N/Q/R/W/6 platforms) Very nice picture BTW.
Isn't that the south end of the Broad St bound platform?
There are only two more stops to the end of line. Don't most people use this platform to exit J trains, climb the stairs, and walk over to the IRT Brooklyn Bridge station?
Yes. The only time this platform is ever full of people waiting for a train is the late afternoon rush (4:30 to about 6 PM).
The M continues to 9th Avenue middays, Bay Parkway rush hours.
What a great shot! The black and white really gives an nice look to the station! In b/w the station actually looks good, and even clean! I always said Chambers has an elegant look.
I'm suprised they never closed Bowery, it gets no use. I've never seen anyone there. I was there only once, and I was the only person in the station (definately spooky).
Perhaps they should go back to have the J going back to skipping Bowery, or just close Bowery all together.
"I'm suprised they never closed Bowery, it gets no use. I've never seen anyone there. I was there only once, and I was the only person in the station (definately spooky).
Perhaps they should go back to have the J going back to skipping Bowery, or just close Bowery all together. "
You're kidding right. You've been there once and therefore based on your observations it should be closed?
The Bowery is changing as we speak. Gentrification is creeping in. They just finished or are near finished with construction on a new building there and a wee bit of nightspots have opened up nearby.
"The Bowery is changing as we speak. Gentrification is creeping in. They just finished or are near finished with construction on a new building there and a wee bit of nightspots have opened up nearby."
CTA closed a Blue Line subway station -- Grand/Halsted -- because of low ridership. They closed it just before condos started sprouting out of empty lots like dandelions and restaurants and nightclubs started moving into empty storefronts. Just a few years after closing it, they had to reopen it due to demand. Nobody's going to mistake the neighborhood yet for Wicker Park or the station's level of traffic for that at Damen/North, but the area definitely turned around.
If you took this picture on Monday 10/14 (Columbus Day), it is not an accurate picture of Chambers St usage because ridership was very light Monday even though NYC Transit ran a regular schedule.
--Mark
Whoops...hehe.
"They complain, and complain, and complain, they get what they want, and they put it to use? RIGHT!"
No, "they" - if by that you mean Chinatown residents - *didn't* get what they want, which is restoration of a proper through subway service at Grand St station, not a shuttle that doesn't go in the direction they want to go. And they won't get that until Manahttan Bridge is finished.
They got through service at a station two short blocks away.
And a different part of Chinatown got through service at a station that hadn't had it for eleven years.
Hey everyone, sounds like Subtalk Sunday was a success. I have one question hopefully someone can answer. I recently acquired ERA Tracks of New York Vol. #1 (Metropolitan St Rwy) and #2(Brooklyn Elevated). My question is, how many other volumes were done? Are they as hard to get as some of the CERA books?
Thanks
Steve Loitsch
There are three parts in that Alan Paul Kahn series.
The third is Manhattan and Bronx Elevated Railroads
They are hard to find, but you already have the best one in Part 2!
Thanks Karl, there are some really great shots in Volume #2! I especially like the shots of elevated trains running in the street. Hopefully soon I will be able to duplicate that on my O scale traction layout. That is if the boss will let me order the carbodies from Q Car.
Steve
Kahn uses some great pictures in his books, and I really loved those old gate cars.
My favorite picture in No 2 is on the top of page 32, showing the old Cypress Hills Terminal. I lived in that neighborhood from 1936-1957, but the station shown was removed about 1916 so I had never seen it. I could not believe the changes in the area. I'll bet that there have been a lot more since I left.
Though old Cypress Hills is before almost everyone's time now (I guess you would have to be over 90 to have even a fuzzy recollection of it), you can clearly see the steelwork for the original station at the corner of Crescent & Jamaica and see how the Dual Contracts steelwork was added.
Have you ever seen another picture published of that old station?
I don't think I have, although there was a picture of the trackwork leading to it in the ERA Farewell to the Jamaica El booklet.
I'm certain I've seen another picture, but not sure where. I can't think of a published source...
Steve: There is a volume 3 entitled "Manhattan and Bronx Elevated Railroads 1920." It is edited by Alan Kahn and Jack May. It shows the Manhattan Railway after the Dual Contract rebuilding.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks to Karl and Larry for letting me know about volume #3. Guess I will have to keep my eyes out.
Steve
Paul, I had the opportunity to read a printed copy of The Third Rail, and enjoyed it very much.
This issue was Vol I, No I, Summer 1966, and seems to be an original.
How many issues of this magazine were published?
Glad you liked it!
Seven printed issues, described here.
Plus twelve on-line issues.
I know there hasn't been a new on-line issue since January. I'm reinventing my work again (more times than Al Gore) so haven't been able to devote the time to putting together a new issue in the format I like, but there will be more.
In the meantime, I've added a few things incrementally to rapidtransit.net, and a number of items in MyRecollection, all this year.
Paul, your link for the seven printed issues leads to a blank page.
I had discovered this earlier, when I tried to get to it from your main page.
Is there a problem or is it just my computer?
It just worked for me. Here is the cut-and-paste URL:
http://rapidtransit.com/net/silverleaf/thirdrail.htm
Does that work?
No sir, that won't work either. I tried Netscape and IE.
It must be my iMac!
This looks like a job for my nephew, the computer whiz!
Sorry for butting in, but it's not your iMac. Bill Gates never touched it. I swear. :)
Paul - check your HTML near the top. You have an opening tag marked {TBODY} (you know what the proper brackets are, didn't want to give the subtalk engine gas) ... never saw a TBODY tag before and browsers are supposed to SKIP anything they don't "get" so perhaps this is the problem. My end is Nutscrape 4.77 on a Billybox. Same deal. ooo-gots.
MAYBE that's the culprit ...
I run everything by NS 6.0 and IE 5.5. I figure Netscape is so picky that it catches even misdemeanors.
However, I guess NS is more forgiving now. I had one more (TABLE) than (/TABLE) and that would certainly produce a blank page on older browsers.
Try it now?
Find anything else, let me know. Like rust, I never sleep...
Thank you, Paul, and Kevin too!
It works perfectly now! I'm not wise to what was wrong, or how it was fixed, but it sure is OK now.
That is the greatest thing about this board. Share a problem, and viola !!!the problem is solved!
Thanks again, Guys!
What do the great minds at SubTalk think about this:
I think that the D Train could be made into a Cross- Bronx Subway. It is already underground for its entire route, and using TBM's its route could be extended to the far east bronx. It could have a stop deep in the heart of Fordham, and could alleviate the severe crouding conditions on the Surface Transit in the area.
What do you think? :)
Supposedly, the original construction plans called for the Concourse Line (D) to extend east from its current terminal, to about where Co-op City is now. This never came to pass, possibly because of the Depression and then World War II.
Actually it didn't happen because given the choice of buying the ROW of the NY Westchester & Boston or extending the Concourse line to Burke Avenue the City opted to go with the cheaper of the two. That is why we have the Dyre Av line instead of a longer Concourse line.
That was the original IND plans IIRC. That is why the line curves to the east going to it's terminal at 205th.
Another way to improve subway service to the West Side of Manhattan can be extending the BMT Canarsie line from 8th Ave to West St. Doing this can improve access to the Hudson waterfront.
The station could be constructed in a loop form similar to the former PATH WTC station (straight island platform). However, it would have only two tracks to service the "L" trains.
Actually, I would bend the (L) north on 11th Avenue, and bring it to the Javits Center.
Elias
"Another way to improve subway service to the West Side of Manhattan can be extending the BMT Canarsie line from 8th Ave to West St."
There isn't that much demand for transit west of 8th Ave on 14th St. For example, the M14 buses are pretty empty west of 8th Ave, in contrast to their extremely crowded state east of 1st Ave.
chicken and egg. IMHO f the L went west and then north to Javits up 11th say or up the NYC hiogh line ROW, there would be riders. "Build it and they will show up." Mind you I still want the Second Ave Line first, but tapping an underserved area is useful.
And as to my old stoming grounds 11th bet B & C for instance. the right idea in my book is to build an Ave B/C station in the present tunnel. Yes lots of $$ for elevators, but again an underserved area.
Mind you I still want the Second Ave Line first, but tapping an underserved area is useful.
There is a lot of truth to that. If anyone has ever seen photos of the Flushing line or the Bronx els being built, they were built through farmland at some points!
Story here.
They find Mexican bodies in trucks, containers, bus luggage compartments, and packed so tight in box vans they have to be pried out, so why should boxcars be any different?
so why should boxcars be any different?
True... this one was a covered hopper, that's the first time I've heard of that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BN took us (a class of EMTs and Firefighters) inside of a tank car, so we might see what they looked like inside. Actually this one was refitted into a traveling display car, and had a safety display (and lighting) on the inside. Very interesting, but not opened to the general public.
Elias
Sounds like it! I've seen diagrams but never the real thing. I have seen the inside of a covered hopper (older-style ribbed grain hopper) following a derailment in Nashville, North Carolina a few years ago. Fortunately for the shipper, it was AFTER the car had been unloaded at the Perdue feed mill - kids threw an old car bumper under the third car from the end and that, coupled with terrible track, was enough to topple the last three cars and derail the caboose. Apparently it didn't occur to the kids that the police might be filming the train (there had been complaints about failure to flag a crossing that required it) and as a result they ended up before a judge with irrefutable evidence of their misdeeds (as well as the train crew for failure to flag).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> this one was a covered hopper <<<
Question for the more knowledgeable. Can a person inside a covered hopper ever get out without outside assistance?
Tom
Apparently not, witness the bodies found inside.
CNN now reports that many rail cars, including the type in question, cannot be opened from the inside.
It sounds as if the people met a really horrible end.
What's even worse is that it is now being reported that authorities have no idea yet who are men, women or children. The bodies are that decayed.
I'm waiting for the FRA to come up with some stupid regulation of fine for the RR now....
You can get a 35% discount from purchasing your tickets online or on the phone by using Mastercard. This offer is valid October 15 through February 23. However, travel within the Northeast Corridor is restricted on Fridays and Sundays between 11 AM and 11 PM. The promotion code online is H251, and over the phone it is H250. -Nick
You have to book your fare between 10/15 and 10/31, but you can travel between 10/18 and 2/23. Also, the savings is 30% when you purchase over the phone, and 35% when you purchase online. -Nick
Can this be used in conjunction with Student Advantage? I doubt it, but a 15% discount on top of a 35% discount would be nice...
Actually it'd probably be 35% on top of 15%, still nice though.
No, it cannot be combined with other offers. You can use it with first class and business class. -Nick
3 times since the closure of Coney Island to the F train, I've taken the N train from midtown Manhattan to 86th St, then I've exited the system to make the short walk up 86th St to McDonald Ave. to get the Manhattan bound F. All three times, I was not charged an extra fare. How can that be?
Did you start in Canarsie?
No, I got on at Union Square.
I thought you were asking a trick question. If you had started on the B42 in Canarsie, transferred to the L (no swipe needed, since the B42 stops inside fare control), and transferred at Union Square to the N, you would have still had a transfer to the subway on your card.
But it sounds like the turnstiles at Avenue X were reprogrammed to allow for the closest thing possible to the former Stillwell transfer. Good.
That's what I was thinking. If your card was last used on any N/W/Q station, the Ave X turnstile won't charge a fare, reguardless of the time between swipes. That's something all southern Brooklyn BMT riders should remember.
No, the free transfer probably applies to people boarding anywhere -- don't forget that some people may first need to transfer to the N/W/Q to begin with. It's probably like the free out-of-system transfers at 59-63/Lex and Court(house) Square.
So why isn't it publicized?
Maybe because free transfers of that sort are very easy to abuse?
I use the one at 59/Lex all the time. I take the train there, run an errand, and reenter at the very same station I had exited at -- but the turnstile doesn't know that I'm not coming from the F three blocks up, so it doesn't charge me a fare.
No wonder the system is going bankrupt!
The MTA needs the money and I'm not willing to sacrifice the gains that the system has made over the last 20 years. Therefore, we need a fare hike. The $325 million "robbed" by Albany won't cover the entire shortfall, so a fare hike is still necessary. I believe it is irresponsible for people who promote improved mass transit to ignore the fact that mass transit costs money. I believe that instead of fighting the inevitable fare hike (which it is, let's not be fooled), we should tie basic operational improvements to it.
1) The MTA needs to conduct an audit of its transit operations to see where possible efficiencies could be gained and where new bus service could be implemented. This should be an investment-grade study that should be conducted in such detail that it could be funded from this network study ONLY. This would be similar to WMATA's Regional Bus Study now being conducted.
2) The MTA needs to CONTINUE its state-of-good-repair program. You should not wait for things to fail before replacing them. The MTA has done a fairly good job of keeping things maintained and they need to continue this work.
3) The MTA should consider setting up a Private Carrier program, which would allow private carriers to provide services in areas that may need service, but the MTA can't do it because of resources or infrastructure. The MTA does not have the expertise to provide every sort of transit service known to man, and any agency that believes that won't do anything right...and then we get into trouble.
4) The MTA should set criteria for the provision of new services and distribute that criteria publicly. This should include a package based on community issues, potential financial impacts, and other impacts so that new proposals introduced by politicians and others will have a similar structure that will allow the MTA to view everything more easily.
5) Keep the operating cost, revenues, ridership, and transfers for each route. Put it into a database format to analyze sharp operating spikes.
For that, I will gladly accept a $1.75 to $2 local bus fare and $4 express bus fare. A high-quality system reduces travel time and makes mass transit a comfortable and reliable option. Non-fare revenue is always iffy, but increased fare revenue will have a concrete base for the future. Any attempt to look for alternative ways to fund it other than passenger revenue will make the system too vulnerable to political fluctuations and that is certainly not necessary at a time where areas needed to be rejuvenated.
Comments welcome.
I have a comment. Great post! Seriously. Now, let me suggest that you post it on Straphangers.org. It would be interesting to hear what the people over there have to say.
I did...and they keep bringing up the now-gone surplus. They also seem to believe that there are many funding options for closing the gap.
There is a lot of good sense in what you said. Not that I would want to see a fare hike, but the truth is that it has been quite a long time since one occurred, so I don't know if people really can complain too much. They have done a great job at keeping the basic fare at $1.50, while offerring discounts ($1.36, funpasses, unlimitteds, etc), continued to improve stations and infastructure, bought new trains, etc, the list goes on. I would hate to see all the progress the subway had made in the last 15 years to begin to erode. A lot of people start to forget how bad the subway was in the 70's and early 80's. I never want to see that again. It is inevitable that the fare will have to eventually go up. As long as they don't do it almost every year like I remember them doing in the 80's of like the post office feels the need to raise the stamp prices every 6 to 12 months. $1.50 is a very fair price. However, unfortunately, it can't stay like that forever.
Great points!
Of course, we want the fare to be as low and affordable as possible, but every since the Honorable John Hylan made the fare a demagogic issue 85 years ago, slavish devotion to a low fare:
1. Bankrupted the IRT
2. Forced the BMT to sell to the City
3. Helped end the big era of subway building
4. Led to the formation of the NYCTA, muddying the lines of responsibility for City transit
5. Skewed policy toward the purchase of new equipment instead of the maintenance of existing viable equipment
6. Began the long era of "deferred maintenance" to save operating bucks at the expense of keeping the system in a state of good repair
7. Gutted marginal and not-so-marginal services to save a few bucks
8. Encouraged endless protests, wasting energy and political interest that might have better been used to learn and lobby for improvements.
Maybe you can think of some others.
Students of history know what "saving the fare" means. We'll be lucky if we don't go back to deferred maintenance or, politics being what they are, have some of the fare or MTA tax revenues diverted elsewhere.
A better fight would be that all transportation revenues -- fares, tolls, motor vehicle taxes, airport revenues, parking revenues, motor vehicle registration, dedicated MTA taxes, etc. be used for transportation. Not for other things. And no more debt.
Then raise the fare, toll the rest of the bridges, and impose a $30 per month charge to park overnight on the street in New York City (roughtly equivalent to the sales tax on a rented Manhattan space or the property tax on a private garage). Otherwise, its potholes, unpainted bridges, stalled trains, and forget about any and all improvements for a decade.
the overnight charge should be tied to the cost of a monthyly Metrocard.
impose a $30 per month charge to park overnight on the street in New York City (roughtly equivalent to the sales tax on a rented Manhattan space or the property tax on a private garage).
That's actually an excellent idea. On-street parking is a scarce commodity, so it's reasonable to charge for the privilege.
It also occupies valuable space that could be used in other (perhaps better) ways.
Parking in my Manhattan neighborhood has been very bad lately. I've returned to my park-in-Queens mode (I gave up that last time when I got a parking ticket thanks to a delay in N/W service that got me to my car about three minutes after alternate side began -- but the ticket was dismissed in the end). Last week I moved the car to a no-parking-on-Monday spot; yesterday was a holiday, so it's good until 8:30am this coming Monday. I may move it to Brooklyn; I've been informed about an area with no alternate side very close to the Brighton line.
But I'd gladly pay $30 per month to have a fighting chance of finding a space nearby.
Larry's ideas are good.
I know an area in Queens that has no alternate side of the street parking, but it's not going to do much good because it's in the "subway dead zone" - no subway service near there. It is right next to the former Glendale LIRR station though, but that's not of much use anymore either anymore. Too bad, as it's easy to find parking spots, and it's safe to park a car. The Myrtle Ave bus (forgot the number) is a couple blocks away, which one way heads to the Wyckoff M station, or the other way the 121st Street J station, but it seems like a bit of a hassel. See we need subway service on the Lower Montauk Branch, as that is right there.
Off course it's only a 10-15 minute walk through the cemetery at the Glendale Station's grade crossing to the Metropolitan Ave M station, but that's also a pain, because the cemetery closes at sundown.
Thanks, but that's a bit too much of a hassle for me. Right now I'm parked in Jackson Heights two or three blocks from two subway lines, so I can take my pick of 7, R, or E.
Yeah, I figured that, Jackson Heights is easier. But if you ever need to park and feel like a bit of railfanning......
The question isn't whether I feel like doing the railfanning when I go to move the car. The question is whether I will feel like doing the railfanning again when I go back to pick it up.
(It also occupies valuable space that could be used in other (perhaps better) ways. I'd gladly pay $30 per month to have a fighting chance of finding a space nearby.)
This idea isn't entirely off the cuff -- I've thought about if for some time.
It would deter unnecessary multiple car ownership, making it easier for transit riders to park their one car.
If it were limited to those registered in the city and insured, it would deter those registered for insurance purposes outside the city and those uninsured by making them easily identifyable. This would lower insurance payments for those who are registered and insured in Brooklyn, who now get killed on insurance.
On most side streets, there is one travel lane and two parking lanes -- the parkers are occupying two-thirds of a street that was once usable by playing children. If the parking fees (and other transportation revenues) were dedicated to street maintenance, it is more likely that we won't go back to deferred street maintenance. Same arguement as for a fare increase and tolls.
If it were limited to those registered in the city and insured, it would deter those registered for insurance purposes outside the city and those uninsured by making them easily identifyable. This would lower insurance payments for those who are registered and insured in Brooklyn, who now get killed on insurance.
Trust me, the insurance companies will find a way to avoid lowering the rates for Brooklyn drivers - in fact, they'd manage to increase the rates!
IMO, nightly permits should also be sold. Unlike the monthly permits, they'd be available to cars registered anywhere. (Otherwise a short-term visitor who drives in from out of the city would have to find and pay for a private garage -- and depending on the part of the city, either finding one or paying for it can be a difficult task.) If a monthly permit costs $30, charge, say, $4-5 for a single night. Those who plan on parking in the city on a regular basis would still find it worth their while to register their cars in the city.
Perhaps it shouldn't be a flat $30 per month. The New York State registration fee varies from car to car, based, I think, on the car's value. For parking, the fee should vary on its size -- both length and width. (A series of long cars occupies space that could be filled by a greater number of short cars; a wide car narrows the driving lane and makes it just a little more likely that a truck will get stuck.) Maybe $25 for a Honda Civic and $35 for a typical SUV would be appropriate. It's probably not worth instituting variable nightly permit pricing.
>>> nightly permits should also be sold. Unlike the monthly permits, they'd be available to cars registered anywhere <<<
The monthly permits should also be available to all. A person with two residences should be able to get one, regardless of which residence the vehicle is registered at, and someone who lives elsewhere but is regularly in the neighborhood overnight for work, or because of a close personal relationship with a resident should not be discriminated against. The price itself is sufficient to prevent abuse.
Tom
You must be unaware of parking garage rates in NYC. The cheapest monthly rate I've come across in Manhattan -- this was about six years ago, in an inconveniently located outdoor lot -- is about $180. Even the night-by-night rate I suggested of $5 is a steal in comparison. (That outdoor lot charges $15 for 24 hours; the cheapest indoor garage in my immediate area charges, IIRC, $24.) Many cars are fraudulently registered and insured outside NYC. I see no need to give them hugely discounted parking.
The city streets are paid for by city residents. Why are we giving them away to people who don't pay for them?
(Many cars are fraudulently registered and insured outside NYC. I see no need to give them hugely discounted parking. )
That's exactly the point. I have not problem with those from elsewhere parking in the city during the day, such as driving to a subway stop and park and riding. It's not the outsiders who are the problem. It's the insurance cheats. Make them register here, and the insurance for honest Brooklyn residents will go way down.
Don't forget about the thousands that don't have insurance at all.
The city needs to do a better job of inforcing traffic laws
Too many people treat red lights as optionals
Make illegal uturns on busy roads.
Not to metion the excessive speeding on side streets
There is a no turning sign in effect during rush hours by my house. It was put up in responce for many accidents over the years. Every day people violate the law and it is never enforced ( a police scooter almost got smashed the other day)
The illegal parking fine hike is about time. make those who choose not to follow the rules pay!!
>>> The city streets are paid for by city residents. <<<
And I suppose you wouldn't mind if all the cities on Long Island, Conneticut and New Jersey denied New York City residents the right to park on their streets? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If New York City could sell permits that only residents could buy to park on their streets, what would prevent other locations from retaliating? I see some constitutional problems here.
Tom
Many cities, towns, and villages do, in fact, have resident-only parking. It's constitutional. (Free parking is not guaranteed in the Constitution, unless there's a new amendment that I'm not aware of.) New York State law doesn't allow it in general, but exceptions are made.
Notice that I wasn't suggesting resident-only parking. Nonresidents would be welcome to buy nightly parking permits, which would still cost a fraction of a space in a private garage. Residents would simply be eligible for a discounted monthly permit.
It seems ludicrous to me that a city with a below-50% automobile ownership rate would dedicate so much space to free storage of automobiles for anyone. The least we can do is charge a nominal fee for storage.
As for "retaliation" -- I doubt many New Yorkers would care. Most of us don't have cars and most of us who do rarely see any reason to park in the suburbs.
As for "retaliation" -- I doubt many New Yorkers would care. Most of us don't have cars and most of us who do rarely see any reason to park in the suburbs.
Well some of us have friends in the suburbs ;-) This thread reminded me of what happened to a friend of mine upstate. They hosted an party that went into the next morning, but there was no on-street parking so their whole front lawn and "back yard" area was turned into a parking lot for their visitors.. Front and back lawns were in ruins...
consitutional--I doubt it. Well over two decades ago neighborhoods in Berkeley implemented resident parking permits'two hour anyone else limits to discourage all day parking by hospital syaffers, university students in the south campus area. The process will reach my own street in nearby Oakland because of commuters parking to use a BART station.
>>> Well over two decades ago neighborhoods in Berkeley implemented resident parking permits'two hour anyone else limits <<<
Neighborhoods which still allow two hour parking for non residents and cities that ban all overnight street parking are different than a whole city not allowing outsiders to park on the streets when residents are allowed to park there. This is particularly true if any state or federal funds are involved in building the streets.
Tom
Many cities restrict parking at certain times to cars with resident parking permits.
>>> Many cities restrict parking at certain times to cars with resident parking permits. <<<
Examples?
Tom
SF, Oakland, Berkeley for starters.
>>> SF, Oakland, Berkeley for starters. <<<
Sorry David, I, a non-resident of any of those cities, have parked on the streets of each of them. Remember, I am talking about a city denying street parking to any non-resident citywide, not one having local parking restrictions at certain times in different neighborhoods.
Tom
Straw man. Nobody suggested restricting all parking on all streets at all times to residents.
>>> Nobody suggested restricting all parking on all streets at all times to residents. <<<
Why do I have to go back up the thread to quote you your own posts?
From post # 397723:
"IMO, nightly permits should also be sold. Unlike the monthly permits, they'd be available to cars registered anywhere. (Otherwise a short-term visitor who drives in from out of the city would have to find and pay for a private garage -- and depending on the part of the city, either finding one or paying for it can be a difficult task.) If a monthly permit costs $30, charge, say, $4-5 for a single night. Those who plan on parking in the city on a regular basis would still find it worth their while to register their cars in the city."
You are clearing talking about differentiating between city and non-city residents Presumably from your post, these permits would be sold throughout the city, denying anyone from out of town from parking on any city street after a certain hour.
From post # 397842:
"The city streets are paid for by city residents. Why are we giving them away to people who don't pay for them?"
To which I responded: "I see some constitutional problems here."
You are clearly differentiating between residents and non residents in the entire city. Charging four times the amount for a non resident to park on a city street at night would be a denial of equal protection under the law, and in the case of interstate travelers, a restraint on inter-state commerce. If I drive from another state to spend a month with relatives who live in Flatbush, I cannot be discriminated against in parking on the public streets. Charging me $120.00 for 30 daily permits, while allowing residents to pay $30.00 for one monthly permit would be that type of discrimination.
None of the cities mentioned by David Vartanoff, or you in a later post, have restrictions anywhere near as draconian as you suggested, and I took exception to.
Tom
Once again, nobody suggested restricting all parking on all streets at all times to residents. What was suggested was to restrict parking at some times to permit-holding residents; I relaxed that further by allowing non-residents to get permits as well.
Every library system I've joined (New York Public Library, Tompkins County Public Library, Urbana Free Library, Champaign Public Library) has required proof of residency before issuing a library card. When I moved a few blocks from Urbana to Champaign, I had to turn in my Urbana card and apply for a new Champaign card, even though both cards are valid in both libraries, with identical borrowing privileges.
Many cities and towns either restrict access to their parks and beaches to their residents or charge nonresidents elsewhere. In some cases this is enforced through parking restrictions.
Besides, it's not residency that Larry proposed as the prerequisite; it's registration (and the insurance that goes along with it) that would be required. If your state's laws allow, you're welcome to register your car in New York (instead of or in addition to your current registration), and you'd then qualify for the parking discount. Of course, unless you plan on parking here for a long time, it's probably cheaper to pay the day-by-day rate. (And if your state laws don't allow this technique, take it up with your state's lawmakers, not me.)
Charging four times the amount for a non resident to park on a city street at night would be a denial of equal protection under the law, and in the case of interstate travelers, a restraint on inter-state commerce. If I drive from another state to spend a month with relatives who live in Flatbush, I cannot be discriminated against in parking on the public streets. Charging me $120.00 for 30 daily permits, while allowing residents to pay $30.00 for one monthly permit would be that type of discrimination.
Access to municipal services often is restricted to residents. As pointed out, many cities have residency restrictions for on-street parking. Parks frequently have residents-only policies. And let's not forget the way parkings lots at commuter train stations often prohibit non-resident parking. The concept is that local taxpayers should have access to various facilities without having to compete with those who aren't paying for the facilities.
>>> As pointed out, many cities have residency restrictions for on-street parking. Parks frequently have residents-only policies. <<<
Restrictions are not the same as prohibition. As I stated before, I know of no city that allows resident only parking citywide, and I challenge you to give me an example. Parking regulations which favor residents have to be narrowly drawn to pass constitutional scrutiny. A law which limited all overnight NYC street parking to NYC residents would not pass muster. Also, I have never heard of a public park limited to residents of a city. Parks in private gated communities may be limited, but not public ones.
Tom
I have never heard of a public park limited to residents of a city.
I gather that you have never heard of Greenwich CT, the Bush ancestral home.
Beach parking is for residents only. Non-residents are free to come to the beach if they feel like walking the 2-3 miles from the nearest available parking, or feel like swimming in from LI or Stamford.
>>>I gather that you have never heard of Greenwich CT <<<
An interesting article, but I bet this plan does not pass constitutional scrutiny any more than the former one did.
Tom
The last I remember the case is still in court. Greenwich residents have not had to share their parks with the great unwashed masses for another year.
The Northeast is filled with public parking, beaches and parks limited to residents. The on-topic example is town-owned municipal parking adjacent to commuter rail stations. The towns keep out residents of other towns not fortunate enough to have a municipal parking lot.
New York City, on the other hand, has no special privileges for residents at all. By state law, it cannot even limit its public employment to residents, as nearly all the places around it do.
I do not advocate discrimination against non-residents as a rule. The requirement than monthly parking passes be limited to those with automobiles registered and insured in the city is intended to address a problem with people not insuring their cars, or insuring them elsewhere. The cost of liability under New York's "no fault" system is then divided among the non-liars. As others have said, daily or weekly passes could be issued for those visiting. Most people who visit the city and stay overnight do not drive.
Also, I have never heard of a public park limited to residents of a city
Eisenhower Park in Nassau County, New York is open only to county residents.
>>> Eisenhower Park in Nassau County, New York is open only to county residents. <<<
That is fascinating. I suppose no one has challenged its exclusivity yet. And if challenged recreational facilities might be differentiated from public streets. Although I noticed that the golf courses located within the park have "non-resident greens fees." That is strange if only residents can enter the park. This seems to be an East Coast thing that we do not see in the West. The closest thing to it is city supported senior citizen centers that will allow anyone in to visit, but will provide certain services only to city residents.
Tom
(That is fascinating. I suppose no one has challenged its exclusivity yet. And if challenged recreational facilities might be
differentiated from public streets. Although I noticed that the golf courses located within the park have "non-resident greens
fees." That is strange if only residents can enter the park. This seems to be an East Coast thing that we do not see in the West.)
Yes, here in the "liberal" East we are actually more segregated than elsehwere, and the affluent don't wan the scum of the city -- subway riders et al -- showing up in their burg and using their services.
New York, of course, is worse. All over the state their are pools built with state tax dollars, some of which are collected in NYC. There is only one such pool in NYC. Elsewhere, these pools are typically free to local residents. NYC residents have to pay to use them (the one I am most familiar with is in Rhinebeck, a town where many NYers go for the weekend).
I have been to Salisbury Park many times and have never encountered any problems. The restriction probably applies to parking.
>>> The restriction probably applies to parking. <<<
No, the website indicates a "recreational passport" is required to enter the park, and they are sold only on presenting proof of Nassau County residency. Perhaps the only ones they check are those who do not "look like" they are residents.
Tom
Rochester, NY
Rye, NY
Pelham, NY
Yonkers, NY
Ithaca, NY
Beacon, NY
Auburn, NY
Tarrytown, NY
Tuckahoe, NY
Urbana, IL
Cambridge, MA
>>> Rochester, NY
Rye, NY
Pelham, NY
Yonkers, NY
Ithaca, NY
Beacon, NY
Auburn, NY
Tarrytown, NY
Tuckahoe, NY
Urbana, IL
Cambridge, MA <<<
I know better about Rochester. I checked the law in Yonkers and found that the prohibition is not city wide, and permits are issued to non residents who are employees or customers of businesses in a restricted area, and it is possible to get visitor permits to park in the restricted areas. I don't want to take the time to research them, but I suspect the other places you have named have similar provisions, and not an outright ban on non residents parking on city streets.
Tom
I didn't look up the details of all those examples, except to find the law in which specific cities in New York are authorized to institute resident-permit parking.
(I don't know what you mean by "I know better about Rochester." The law doesn't apply citywide. I don't know why you think that matters.)
I do know that Ithaca and Urbana require proof of residency.
I'm pretty sure you have to pay to park overnight on the street in Boston. In Jersey City and Hoboken, I believe, they are worried about rationing daytime parking, so there is a fee for that.
I think if you live in the city, but keep your place of residence elsehwere to avoid the NYC local personal income tax and NYC insurance rates, the least we can make you do is keep your car where you "live." You have no idea how big an issue this is, but one that no politicos have an incentive to talk about. Manhattan is now full of "corporate apartments" with no official occupant (hurt us in the census too). Forget the commuter tax. How about taxing "residents."
>>> I think if you live in the city, but keep your place of residence elsehwere to avoid the NYC local personal income tax and NYC insurance rates, the least we can make you do is keep your car where you "live." <<<
Now you are getting into a different issue, i.e. where is one's residence. If someone owns a house with a wife and three children in Maine, and works in NYC and maintains a studio apartment in NYC where he stays on Monday - Thursday nights, but returns to Maine each Friday evening and stays til Monday morning, where is his home? He spends more than 50% of his time in NYC, but his home life is in Maine. Should he be treated for all purposes as a resident of New York, and a non-resident of Maine? Should he vote in New York rather than in Maine? So far there has been no requirement for the person to choose one place over the other as his residence. He is already paying New York income tax on his income earned in New York and paying New York sales tax on what he buys in New York. All states allow residents of other states to drive their automobiles into their state without additional charge. New York City cannot make an exception to the policy for interstate travelers, and could not do so if the person's wife and children lived in Binghamton rather than Maine. Your real complaint is with those who falsely claim a residence outside NYC when they have none. Certainly something should be done about them, but the policy suggested of allowing only NYC residents to park overnight on streets is not it.
>>> Manhattan is now full of "corporate apartments" with no official occupant <<<
Corporate apartments are also legitimate if a corporation frequently has out of town employees staying for extended times such as the training of new stock brokerage employees, which used to require six months on Wall Street for full service brokerage houses. It is also legitimate for executives to use them during times of corporate crisis, when they want to stay close to the office.
Tom
Tom, the residence issue can be quite a thorny one. New Jersey says that if you are physically present in New Jersey more than in any other state you are a New Jersey resident, regardless of where you earn your living. My permanent residence, or domocile, is North Carolina, but my legal residence for tax purposes is New Jersey under this law. My income is taxed in New Jersey as a result, but I also pay certain other taxes to North Carolina - personal property, among others (as well as real property taxes to both states based on property owned in the respective jurisdictions). Four of my five vehicles (my older son's car, my younger daughter's car, my wife's car, and my van) are registered in North Carolina, while my pickup is registered in New Jersey. I carry a New Jersey driver's license, while my wife carries one from North Carolina. And I never have figured out where we really should be voting; at this point I believe both states would let us vote if we tried to, although doing so would violate a number of laws (so we won't try).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...a wide car narrows the driving lane and makes it just a little more likely that a truck will get stuck...
A parking lane is eight feet, regardless of the width of cars parked there. A Civic parked three feet from the curb would take the same width as an SUV parked at the curb. Of course, laws could be enacted to establish a maximum parking distance from the curb.
I was taught to park no more than a foot from the curb; in practice, I usually end up parking within an inch or two. I don't know if that's law or just good advice.
Parking lanes in NYC generally aren't explicitly marked. Wherever nobody's parked is a de facto driving lane. The narrower all the vehicles involved are (usually four, two parked at the curb, one double parked, and the truck in question), the less likely a truck is to get blocked.
I'll go for that if I get the key to use the 63rd Street Vent Tower lot for my officially identified NYCTA vehicle...otherwise, I'll pay three bucks a night for parking not abusing my parking priviledges. The grand misnomer is that everyone who parks in Manhattan uses their vehicles for 'pleasure' and can afford garage parking. Every new apartment building with enclosed garage eliminated one city block of alternate side of the street parking...I drove professionally doing electronic service calls in the city for over twenty years and I know every block/zone/parking meter where I had a service stop. Raise the fare to four bucks, raise the meters to two bucks an hour, tow limousines idling off the street, charge visitors twenty bucks city access and.......is there no limit??? The concept WAS to increase ridership in mass transit....Mayor Bloomburg declares that NYC/MTA has a $ 663 Million deficit...why??? City street parking is an 'exact science' which incorperates vehicular skill, coordination and extra-sensory powers. After all those years, can still smell a parking space two blocks away....our new Mayor does not have these problems...lives around the corner from me!!! CI Peter
City street parking is an 'exact science' which incorperates vehicular skill, coordination and extra-sensory powers.
And there used to be a web site that would supposedly link you up with a parking spot if you provided them your approximate location and when you planned to be there .. sort of like, reserve a spot. I'm not sure if it still exists or not.
--Mark
also raise LIRR and Metro North fares as well
Paul, I'll tell you perhaps the most destructive effect of all -- it associated in people's minds forever (inside and outside NY) the idea that transit was a second-class social service, and drove them to automobiles for self-respect.
MARTA URGED TO SCRAP FARE HIKE PROPOSAL
ATLANTA, GA, May 26, 2000- The long-awaited vote on the fare increase failed to pass the MARTA board Thursday by one vote. The meeting room, held at MARTA headquarters, was filled with customers whose yellow signs urged the board to "Vote No" on the fare hike. "The five Board members who voted against the proposed fare increases are applauded for allowing for more equitable solutions to be considered. We hope the recommendations we have made are given serious consideration after the board action on Thursday," said Sherrill Marcus, a member of the Metropolitan Atlanta Transportation Equity Coalition.
Weeks earlier, the Environmental Justice Resource Center at Clark Atlanta University recommended that MARTA in lieu of fare hikes, initiate an aggressive plan to expand rider ship (especially in areas where transit is needed the most), charge for parking, capture all of its fare box revenue, streamline its administrative staff, acquire more state, regional, and federal funding for public transit, and explore the feasibility of a fare reduction. "It is a bit disingenuous for MARTA to present the choices in terms of a fare hike or service cuts. We urge MARTA officials to cease and desist with these scare tactics," said Robert Bullard. The Center has hired Thomas A. Rubin, a nationally-known transportation consultant, to analyze MARTA's budget reports. Rubin's detailed report was submitted to the MARTA Board the day before the vote was taken.
Rubin's findings clearly show that MARTA has adequate funds to increase service in FY 01 and FY 02 without increasing fares. His findings on transit rider ship also support the views expressed by the vast majority of MARTA customers who testified at its May 3 public hearing. "If the objective is to carry more passengers, a fare decrease is likely to be the most productive and cost-effective methodology available by a wide margin," stated Rubin.
MARTA's proposal to cut twenty-seven bus routes (if the fare hike does not take effect) could adversely affect its transit-dependent population, who are disproportionately African American. Because of this, the Center is assembling a legal team to explore the equity and Title VI (Civil Rights Act of 1964) implications of MARTA's actions.
Highlights of the MARTA Board Meeting on the Fare Hike (May 25, 2000)
MARTA Board members take a vote on the proposed fare hike. The fare increase failed to pass by one vote.
T. Jerry Jackson (Commissioner, Georgia Department of Revenue) and Dr. Catherine Ross (Executive Director of the Georgia Regional Transportation Authority) and one of the newest member of the MARTA Board) confer on the fare hike. Both Jackson and Ross voted for the fare increase.
State Senator Vincent Fort, who also serves on the Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Oversight Committee, confers with MARTA Board member Marie Metz. Senator Fort presented his strong opposition to the fare increase during the public comment period.
Atlanta residents waited more than an hour for the MARTA Board members to show up for the scheduled 1:15 pm meeting. Some people left the meeting to get back to their jobs. Most of the residents walked out of the meeting after the Board refused to place the public comment period before the vote on the fare hike.
Protesters picketed the MARTA headquarters and voiced their sentiment against increase.
Some MARTA customers are calling for a fare decrease, not a fare increase.
I agree. Even at $2, it is one of the best deals in America. (Hopefully those of us on monthly's that railfan all day Sunday will be able to get it for something like $1.80/per ride or less!)
$2 isn't too bad. The current London zone 1 single is £1.60 - about $2.50. There's talk of that rising to £1.85 to £2 ($3 to $3.20) to fund Tony Blair's half-assed privatisation. At that rate of increase an all-zones One Day Travelcard would end up costing £13.80 to £15 ($22 to $24). So in comparative terms for such large transit systems New York is VERY inexpensive.
Welcome back, James - we've missed you this last couple of weeks. Hope University is going well.
It is of course true that New Yorkers don't know when they are lucky, by comparison with the fares on the (broadly similar sized) London system. For some reason the UK has always had the idea that it is o.k. for roads to be paid for from taxation but public transportation ought to be a commercial proposition.
However, I think there must be some error in your calculation of the the ratio between the price of a zone 1 single fare and the all-zones One Day Travelcard. With that single at £1.60, my One Day Travelcard from Bedford costs £16.20 - but that includes 100 miles of national rail travel, Bedford to London and back, as well as a day's unlimited use of tube, bus, Docklands Light Rail, Croydon trams, and local national rail services within the London boundary. As the cheapest possible fare I can get for the Bedford-London return is £10 (which is itself a special offer fare), I'm only paying £6.20 maximum for the unlimited London travel. I'll check when I am in London on Friday, but my memory is that the all-zones off-peak One Day Travelcard (London only, no trip from out of town included) is currently about £6. So even with your suggested increases, it shouldn't rise to more than about £7.50. Those fares are off-peak, of course - maybe your figures are the peak hour prices?
Greetings! You're forgetting the most important part of New York culture (applies almost as intensely UPSTATE as well) is the incessant wriggling and howling and whining and pything and moaning. EVERYTHING is a bloody conspiracy and we're ALL going to hell in a handbasket. If you think Noo Yawkahs whine about the subway fares, you should HEAR the whining over taxes (another comparison you might amuse some folks on here with) ...
WE have *NO* "VAT", just a simple sales tax of 8% on the final price, and it's marked off separately fromt he price of the commodity. The average New Yorker pays about 25-30% of their wages in INCOME taxes. Go ahead, TELL them what it is over on YOUR side of the puddle. Then there's property taxes and school taxes which are normally included invisibly in their rents so they don't notice (but *I*, living upstate and being a land owner know all TOO well) ... and before the whining begins about the outrageous rents in NYC, why not advise our NYC brethren how many children you must offer up for a chitty flat in London ... oh, I could go on and on ...
But face it, Flounder ... NYC residents are incessant whiners. :)
NYC residents are incessant whiners. :)
Service with a smile...
maybe your figures are the peak hour prices?
Peak Hours, zones 1 to D. The current One Day Travelcard for that is £12, which is a bit steep really.
Hope University is going well.
Very well and not too much work thanks! (If a little too much alcohol... hic!)
Ah, the notorious lettered zones! A bit of an unfair comparison with NYC there - the lettered zones are outside the London boundary, contain only seven Undergraound stations across the four lettered zones (zones B and C have only one station each!), and put the cost of the One Day Travelcard up inordinately. Moral - don't live in Hertfordshire or Buckinghamshire (8-) . Tourists are likely to get the zone 1-6 Travelcard which, as I said before, is about £6. Still a lot compared with a NYC Funpass at $4, but good value if you use it a lot during the day.
Very well and not too much work thanks! (If a little too much alcohol... hic!)
Well we'll forgive you if you start to type babble here - we'll know the reason.
Excellent. I also managed to read the replies that have built up at Rider Diaries. Is it me or why does it seem that Subtalk and the Diaries seems to have diametrically opposed opinions to this, ar? They don't seem to get the point....
I'm midnightdragon there, and I am the strong voice who wants the fare hike, I said it simply, either accept it, or have the straphangers campaign shell out 660 million, but since they cant, they need to sit down and let it happen.
Good, nice to have someone support it. I do as well. In fact, we don't even pay the 1.50 with Metrocard. I mean, with all those discounts that are offered, I think we pay just a little over a dollar with that.
That's because they do not appreciate what it takes to run the system.
would the commuter rail fares also go up as well, or not?
No for now it only applies to NYC SUbways and Bus
I've managed to read how the thread has developed there, and it SEEMS to have some credible reasoning behind their argument against the fare hike. I can't really explain it as anyone who wants to interpret it should read for themselves. Are they correct?
(I've managed to read how the thread has developed there, and it SEEMS to have some credible reasoning behind their argument against the fare hike. I can't really explain it as anyone who wants to interpret it should read for themselves. Are they correct? )
As anyone whose read my posts over the past few years knows, I know of 1,000 ways that the rest of the state has been allowed to rip off NYC (in exchange for certain groups within NYC being allowed to rip us off too), and I am very bitter about it. The Staphangers argument is that the fare can be kept low if New York City gets a fair share of state aid. Unfortunately for them, this isn't (yet) one of the 1,000 ways NYC is ripped off (although it might get worse).
The transit fare does cover a bigger share of the ride than is true elsewhere in the state. And NYCT does get a lower share of the TBTA surplus than city residents pay in tolls. BUT the Metropolitan Transportation District Taxes are collected throughout the area, but far more NYC residents benefit from MTA services. In addition, some of those taxes are on NYC businesses, which are paying to gain access to workers in the suburbs as well as the city. The Straphangers might ask why NYC has 83 percent of the riders and only 2/3 of the state aid. But the rest of the region might ask why they have to pay half the MTA taxes with only 17 percent of the riders.
My guess is, it is a wash in good years, and the city is somewhat ripped off in bad years. But the benefits of those ripoffs go to high paid, cream puff jobs on the suburban lines, not to LIRR and MetroNorth riders. And fairness alone is not enough to cover the TA deficit, especially if the city refuses to kick in.
And that's what the Straphangers Campaign doesn't seem to understand...the "stolen" $325 million won't cover the whole bill. Where will the recurring $338 million ADDITIONAL dollars come from? If they think the city and state will cough it up, they aren't using their political minds very well.
I agree 100%. The fare needs to be high enough to allow for good maintenance and halfway decent service. If we start down the road of deferred maintenance again we'll all regret it.
Yes, they're still talking about Scranton to New York train service. Pennsylvania budgeted $40 mil as its contribution to get $200 mil TEA 21 money. The $40 mil isn't appropriated, just budgeted.
Jersey also needs to kick in $40 mil.
Story in last Saturday's Pocono Record.
Hey, yeah, I saw that! We Scrantonians are starting to get antsy. I remember back when 2002 was a projected date for the start of operations! I'm going back 5, 6 years now. But I'm glad PA kicked in their $40 Million. Did PA ever pay back NJ for its costs of buying the cutoff and bridge over the Delaware? I thought that was a sticking point also. I plan to be moving to NYC soon, and when I want to come home and see mommy and daddy, this rail line would be awesome. Whaddaya think, 2008?
---Brian
Yes my local paper made it to Subtalk. Something I tought would never happen.
Now Hopefully they can get service up in 2007. I can't wait for this railroad to start up but I keep asking myself what will come first this or the Second Ave Subway? This would make my life better. I would have the option to work anywhere. I wouldn't have to limit myself to the Bronx and Upper Manhattan.
I know a lot of other people would love to see this become a reality since we have a lot of City workers making the commute. I also notice more Subway and Bus workers moving to PA. The other day I meet a T/O on the 4 Line in the local shoprite.
I tried looking eveywhere, that offered the Helvetica Font as a freeware, but the people that do have it often charge $24, $21, $20. I need it for making my Second Avenue Subway School Project look more professional, if anyone can help me, please reply or send me an e-mail to my e-mail address. Thank you for your help.
Christopher Rivera
Helvetica is sure to be everywhere. Windows calls it "Arial" and Macs call it "Geneva" if I recall correctly.
Actually, though the fonts look identical to the untrained eye, from a typographical standpoint, they are completely different. I've dealt with too many clients and printing companies over the years who have major freak-outs over the font metrics being so different when you try to output in Helvetica from one of the desktop variants.
Since we talk about copyright here in terms of reprinting news articles and such, be aware that scalable digital versions of true Helvetica are licensed and copyrighted. Those who would give or sell it to you usually aren't entitled to.
Helvetica is included in all the basic Adobe font facs and font manager at a reasonable price.
Actually, Macs have a Helvetica font as well as Geneva (and Arial for that matter). I've noticed though since I started using my new E-Mac, the Helvetica font is decidedly narrower than any of the older Macs I have used in the past (and I am using Helvetica rather than "New Helvetics Narrow" which is available on some Macs.
The Arial 1 & G look totally different from the Helvetica and Akzidenz the TA uses and will not look like a true subway character.
If you have a PC, look for Swis721 and MS Sans. These are identical to Helvetica.
The TA used certain alternate characters in their Helvetica set, which is not uncommon when creating a corporate style.
Helvetica Front...Greek Insurgents raising weapons against Turkish domination of Cyprus...I remember that! Chances are that my many fonts in memory are no different than anyone elses. CI Peter
????? Greek for Greece is Ellas or Ellada, depending on which version of Greek you like.
Helvetica means “Swiss”. It was copyrighted by Linotype, and licensed by Adobe (amongst others).
When Micros**t wanted to incorporate scalable fonts into Windows, and Adobe refused to give them ATM for nothing, they invented TrueType technology and designed Arial, which is a poor knockoff (IMHO).
Others, such as Bitstream have done the same thing with their “Swissxxx” fonts, which are annoying if you want to print material designed for real Helvetica, as it has slightly different metrics. However, if you design for them, they work really well.
John
Arial wasn't designed by Microsoft. It was around at least in the '60's (The map reflecting the Chrystie St. changes has
"New York City
SUBWAY MAP AND GUIDE" in Arial, (note the lowercase "t", and capital "G") and this was 1967)
But yes, it was someone's ripoff of Helvetica. Way inferior to me.
I also found Akzidenz is over 100 years old, and was what Helvetica was a modified version of!
Helvetica is sure to be everywhere. Windows calls it "Arial" and Macs call it "Geneva" if I recall correctly.
Macs call something else Geneva, they have a proper Helvetica.
Arial is not the same as Helvetica - it's close, but Microsoft cheaped out and rolled their own (inferior) face rather than sucking it up and licensing the real thing. Most of Microsoft's base scalables are really pretty awful. Most people don't notice or care, but it's like fingernails on the blackboard to those that do.
OP: If you're at all interested in using the correct type, the easiest solution would be to use a Macintosh. If you do manage to find a pirate face purporting to be Helvetica, bear in mind that it's quite likely that it's NOT Helvetica. (If you've got the option of comparing it to Helvetica as a typographer would, and they match, you may not much care - but if you've got the option to compare it to Helvetica, you've probably got Helvetica.)
Mark
Helvetica cheese is smelly and does not taste too good...I miss the smell of burning R142 brake shoes...the problem is getting an EXACT MATCH of Helvetica Type that TA used many years ago...maybe a sample can be posted and a reader can respond. CI Peter
Funny how everone is saying you can only get this font via paying for it. I was able to download it for free at some font site which I lost the URL to.
Well, I cooked this up quickly just for reference...
And I had actually got bored last week and started working on such a think, but looks like I was beaten to it :)
Ok, how does one include images in a post?
[img src="webaddress"]
exactly as above, but replace [ ] with < >
Ok, one last try:
And my project out of boredom (X used out of lack of a better letter at the time)
Tony, I looked at your HTML and the only place you should be using quotation marks is on the src= parameter. The others are absolute numerics so no quotes should be used. Fix that and it should work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ok. I cut & pasted from another post with working pics, and that one worked right. But here goes w/o the quotes...
Ok, one last try:
(That should be 'Grotesk')
And my project out of boredom (X used out of lack of a better letter at the time)
That works much better!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah, to he!! with it.
The comparison of fonts is at:
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/comparo.jpg
And my project of 59/2 is at:
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/St59-2-20021016-02.jpg
That's what I was going to recommend. It could be that geocities does not allow remote posting of photos.
Must be. I tried borrowing both a background and some gif's for my Scooby page from a Geocities site, and it came up at first, but then it all turned into Geocities logos. (Luckily I found someone who allowed me to copy his pictures and upload them into my own ftp space)
The links you posted aren't coming up either.
For a comparison between Helvetica and Akzidenz:
It looks like geocities won't let you remote link either because the links do work when you cut and paste. I don't know if it is something that Tony did wrong, or if it's just geocities.
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/comparo.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/St59-2-20021016-02.jpg
That's great. When I first got a computer, I liked to make bullets with the paint program by incasing the letter in a colored circle. Arial looked like the right font, as did Zurich and a couple of others, but the G and 1 were way off as the picture shows. Even R didn't look quite right, with the slight bend in the leg (not straight like Grotesk, but not wavy like Helvetica). Swis721 turned out to be identical to Helvetica.
No, his syntax is fine. Quotation marks are only required if the attribute value contains certain characters (I think the colon and the slashes in a typical URL are what deem them necessary there) but they're permissible for any attribute value. Some people prefer to always use them so they never have to worry about forgetting when they're needed.
Ok, Sorry in my sample I called it "Grodensk" when its "Grotesk" I dunno why I did that.
Speaking of typefaces, does anyone know which one would be similar to the rollsigns on early INDrolling stock?
I noticed that there are all kinds of sites that can give you maps and driving directions to a place. Is there any site that will give you the nearest subway stop? Even the internet is prejudice when it comes to drivers. :(
I've used this one from France in the past, but it doesn't seem to be working right now. Maybe it's suffering from a service disruption :-)
Ah, here's why. With a little surfing I found a better link to the subway navigator Web site from France. This is the New York version... other cities are available too by changing the link.
Check out the Straphangers' site, www.straphangers.org They have a mapping program which shows you the closest subway station to where you want to go.
Yes, there is a severe lack of mass transit directions on the internet. However, some years ago, I was successful in getting my company to provide mass transit directions to our locations on it's intranet.
Peace,
ANDEE
Historical note: The transit authority (c.1960) had a machine at Times Square that let you key in a station and it spit out a little custom-printed card telling you how to get there.
You mean it wasn't a Chicklets machine? :) And all this time I thought I was eating stale gum ....
--Mark
DON'T EAT THOSE!!
It ruins their collectibility... :)
HAHA...I am reminded of the the gum machine we opened up at The Transit Museum a few years ago, and found 3 packets of gum in it, they had all turned black, EEWWW.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are 3 Internet services linked on THIS SITE (nycsubway.org) under Transfer Station - NYC Transit Sites, that purport to give subway directions. Check it out.
Was riding an R-40 slant this morning on the N to manhattan and there was a newbie T/O and he had a trainer along with him. My ride was pretty quick (broadway to times square), but the trainer did pass along some interesting (if already known) pieces of information...
After queensboro plaza and red signals before the 60th street tunnel he told the T/O to wait until they are all green before releasing. Then said even though the timers are marked 35 (actually it's 45) that you can basically get "this train" [r-40] up to 65 and not worry about anything. Said the signals will change as soon as you get to them, but they'll still change. Said that it [the r-40] was a fast train and the "68's" only get to about 60.
When we got to 57th street the T/O tried to punch but the trainer told him he didn't have to punch there b/c it wasn't connected. Then went on to say if he had a green over yellow or if the linuep ever looked wrong to call the tower and ask. Even they will harass you and yell at you for not knowing what you are doing if you take the wrong lineup it is your ass not theirs, so always call if the lineup looks wrong.
Nothing else really major just some things about stopping at the markers correctly, which stations were "fast", some stuff about grades, etc.
Like I said earlier nothing really new here, but it was interesting to see how bits and pieces of information get passed down from someone with experience to somebody just getting started.
After queensboro plaza and red signals before the 60th street tunnel he told the T/O to wait until they are all green before releasing. Then said even though the timers are marked 35 (actually it's 45) that you can basically get "this train" [r-40] up to 65 and not worry about anything. Said the signals will change as soon as you get to them, but they'll still change. Said that it [the r-40] was a fast train and the "68's" only get to about 60.
Uh oh. Official confirmation of the Hippos sluggishness? Train Dude, that's your cue.
Can a slant get it going up to 65?
I rode them on the Q Brighton Express over the summer, and it didn't feel like we broke 35.
Ride one between QBP and Lex Ave and you'll feel the speed alright.
=)
It helps when the train is going downhill although I got a slant on there one summer ago and it we were not going all that fast, it seemed to be a slow T/O though.
Seen yesterday at the front of the southbound 49th St / 7th Ave former BMT (N. R, W) station, one of those red emergency signs identifying number and direction of tracks, next emergency exit, etc.
And right there, plain as day, it says "49th St / 7th Ave station - IND Division.
Hylan's reach was further than you thought :)
--Mark
It's a stretch of the imagination, but then the (R) is kind of an IND, operationally. When we see a sign like that in the middle of the Steinway Tunnels, THEN Hylan will have had his way.
:-) Andrew
Red Mike Strikes Again?
And, as they say:
"The PROFF of the pudding is in the EETING." :)
Just like the emergency exit sign at Brooklyn Bridge says:
"Brooklin Bridge"
>>Just like the emergency exit sign at Brooklyn Bridge says:
"Brooklin Bridge"<<
Sounds like some workers in the sign shop failed the spelling bee when they were in elementary school.
Where exactly is this sign located ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Although this isn't in transit my favorite mistaken sign used to be the street sign at the corner of 58th Av and Springfield Blvd by Queensborough Community College. The sign you see on Springfield as you pass rightfully said 58th Av on both sides but the other sign only said Springfield Blvd on only one side. The other side said Clearview Expwy. The Clearview is about 1/2 miles west of there. I used to show it to people then one day they replaced it to the right sign.
Looks like a mistaken sign. Now if you had some "proof" instead of this thing called "proff", you'd have to re-do your entire history of the IND page.
That has to be a mistake.
Today's Times gives the latest prognosis of the TA's quest for sings that identify trains in stations. The latest date is 2005 (and counting).
"Feel a Breeze? See the Mice? Ah, the Train Is on Its Way."
Reminds me of a lost art (in NYC, anyway). Put your ear to a trolley line pole to hear the car coming. Not only could you hear the singing sound of wheel on wire, you could listen to it start, speed up, slow and stop.
Oh yeah, I read that.
I believe the 7 is the only line, not only IRT but the entire system which still uses IDENTRA for signalling, while still having good running times, which surprises me. Is the 7 the only line that still has it? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
In fact, sporiadic consturction has been commencing for the last several months to modernize the signal system and should be done around Winter 2003-Spring 2004.
The Flushing line was the only line that had the IDENTRA system installed. It has not been operational for at least 5 years.
The new "modernized" signal systems will have the same shortcomings catalogued in the Times article.
The article spreads some misinformation about track circuits, like how they use the third rail shoe and rail as part of the detection circuit, and how the "Letter Lines" are somehow archaically signalled and less compatible with the new PLC racks than the "Number Lines" when there is no difference -there are only track occpuancy indications available on all 3 lines; the racks just happen to be on the IRT right now. The B'Way was resignalled in '61.
Where is this hole in deep underground with blinky lights? Does he mean towers? Command Center?
As the subway columnist for the "Newspaper of Record" you'd think Randy Kennedy would do a little fact checking before printing such blatant errors.
You expect "the media" to get right ANY technical subject,
be it railways, airplanes, medicine, the intramanet or whatever?
He probably got his info from someone in the TA public relations
department. Considering that people _inside_ the TA with technical
jobs don't always get the facts right ( recall the whole
"split switch" discussion on Harry's site last year?), we have
a garbage-in, garbage-out situation. Maybe the reporter could have
called up Charlie M for a proffread?
C.M. is retired after 48 years in the Signal Dept!
No more proffreading, or walking through huge relay rooms only to say, "You've got five relays with broken seals."
Part of this is due to a simple philosophy - in the TA, trains tell the system where they're going (manual route punch buttons). On other systems (for example, PATH) lineups are set for the train's engineer, not by him/her.
If you look at a PATH model board, you'll see the track occupancy lights illuminated in the color of the train's route.
Since the PATH has this, it was a relatively simple matter of saying "hey, wouldn't it be neat if this info was displayed on the existing monitors in the station?". Something like 2 weeks after the light went on in someone's head, a couple stations were displaying the info. Now they all do (or so it seems). It was officially announced as a new feature a while ago.
On the bottom of the screen, there are one or two boxes (depending on how many services are operating on the track at the time) which say "[destination] train [at/left] [station name]". Cool.
Since the PATH has this, it was a relatively simple matter of saying "hey, wouldn't it be neat if this info was displayed on the existing monitors in the station?". Something like 2 weeks after the light went on in someone's head, a couple stations were displaying the info.
It's a pretty simple thing to implement for the TA's system as well. They supposedly have a fiber optic network in place that should connect the 100 odd towers and 50 odd terminal stations. The hard part should already have been done. How much data do they have to keep track of? Assume an average of 500' per signal block and 700 track miles for 7500 bits or less than 1K bytes to represent the presence of trains on the system at any point in time. That's only 87 Meg for an entire day's history on a second-by-second basis. So all one needs is a simple database application to associate a push button with a track location at a particular time to generate the information necessary to display train route on the display at any given time. QED
I'm sure that some talented person like Jon Bochmann - the Bahn creator could knock it off fairly quickly - it's less complicated than his shareware simulation.
There is one problem, the vendor's disclosure form is over 1/4 inch thick. As part of a small startup, we were once considered as a sub-contractor to supply barcode readers and associated software. We saw the forms and respectfully declined. Perhaps, they should enlist Stuyvesant's after class clubs. They should be able to knock it off in a few weeks, which is less time than we figured it would take to fill out those disclosure forms just to be in a position to submit a bid.
Then again, the TA will probably wait until 2005 for the next attempt to fail and put off the network until 2010 or the completion of the 2nd Ave Subway.
The London system of course works in those special London transport minutes, each worth at least two ordinary minutes (8-) ! And the it doesn't "count down the seconds" till the train arrives, it only counts down the minutes. It does usually give the correct destinations, though.
It does usually give the correct destinations, though.
Which is more than the destination signs on the sides of NYCT trains do.
The London system of course works in those special London transport minutes
Yes well we all know why that is... they metricated time, but decided that 100 second minutes made the trains seem late, so it was increased to 150...
More seriously, the London displays have a major flaw:
if it reads "2 minutes" or "3 minutes" or even "75 minutes", you will have to wait at least that long for a train - so "2 minutes" begins to show when the train is 2 mins 59 secs away. This has the effect that "1 minute" shows for nearly 2 minutes - beginning with 1 min 59 secs and ending at "*** TRAIN APPROACHING ***", resulting in the myth of the metric or even double LT minute.
It does usually give the correct destinations, though.
Hmmmm true - though it's fun when they change their mind, as so frequently happens at Earl's Court in rush hour "This is a District Line train to Ealing Broadway, sorry, Parson's Green"
Over the years we've all accumulated some stuff that we've lost one way or the other, and now wish we kept out of harm's way. Among my lost stuff was the headboard from Standard 2000 and the SIRT bench from New Dorp, both lost to movers, and my Uncle Meat poster, lost to my mother's cleaning.
But the most stuff consisted of very old transfers, Subway Suns, some blueprints, tickets, and other neat ephemera, lost to floods in the basement of 43 Marlborough Road, Brooklyn.
What are some of the best things that you lost and miss, and how?
The original Kodachrome slide and filtered negative of my great-uncle's classic photograph of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge (seen in the background of this picture), to a thief who knew exactly what he wanted. (Fortunately, as you can see, I still have the print itself).
My collection of billetes de cinco viajes (tickets for five rides) showing entrance at every Barcelona Metro station that existed when I lived there in 1972-1973, and the commemorative program and newspaper articles from the opening of the first segment of Linea IV in 1973, depicting me as the first revenue passenger entering at the new Joanic station. I am uncertain as to when or how they disappeared, but it was many years ago.
Images of trains (and other things, including family members now long gone) that I took in the early '60s using Agfachrome and Ektachrome, lost to the effects of time on the chemical dyes.
Some family knick-knacks, passed down through several generations, that were casualties of the damage to our North Carolina home from Hurricane Fran in 1996.
My grandfather's Masonic papers and memorabilia, including his 33° certificate and ring, intended for me after his death, that were destroyed by my mother because of her distaste for the Fraternity of which my grandfather was a member (and of which I am a member).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It isn't much, but until just last year, I routinely threw away old subway maps. I recently realized the error of my ways. With the help of three other SubTalkers, I've been slowly filling in the gaps in my collection. I will gladly accept further help from others. (I'm specifically looking for all subway maps and Manhattan bus maps from 1974 on. I have extra copies of all sorts of stuff from 2001 and 2002 which I'd be happy to trade.)
Like David, I've thrown away a lot of NYC subway maps from the mid to late 80's and the early 90's. I now save everything. I also had a nice collection of Hoboken Festival posters. Some were thrown out and some were used for glueing puzzles together so they are in bad shape. But I still have three of those.
I seem to have misplaced a copy of the New Electric Railway Journel. This copy featured the NYC subway and had some vintage color shots of IRT "els" in the Bronx with Low-V's, some from rooftops.
I tore this place apart and seem to find this issue. NERJ is supposedly out of business, so I can't write them for a back issue.
Also much like Jeff Rosen, I removed a seat cushion from a Q Type on the last run on Oct. 1969. Don't know what happed to that.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's not related to transit, but I sure wish that I still had my baseball cards. When I left NY, I left them behind at my parents home, and I never saw them again. When I had to empty my parent's home in 1980 I thought I might locate the cards, but no luck.
What disappeared was two complete sets of Bowman Baseball cards, from both 1950 and 1951. I had collected or traded to complete each set in those days when you still got a piece of gum along with each card.
Card Collectors have told me that I would be quite wealthy if I still had them and could sell those two sets of cards at today's prices.
how about a set america flyer "s" gauge elertic trains
I left them behind at my parents home, and I never saw them again. When I had to empty my parent's home in 1980 I thought I might locate the cards, but no luck.
Well, hopefully your parents went on a nice trip with your cards......instead of some garbage collector who went through your parent's trash at some point.
January 1, 2002, Atlanta, GA - Hundreds of transit riders packed the Atlanta City Hall chamber a little over a week ago to voice their opposition to MARTA's latest budget crisis "fix." Speaker after speaker expressed outrage over MARTA's plan to cut service. The most gripping testimony came from low-income, transit dependent, disabled, and elderly MARTA customers who view MARTA as a necessity, not a luxury. Several elected officials even questioned MARTA sensitivity and sincerity. "How do we know we can believe MARTA today when they told us something different a year ago," stated Senator Vincent Fort, speaking at the public hearing.
It was exactly one year ago (January 1, 2001) that MARTA raised its one-way cash fare from $1.50 to $1.75, a whopping 17 percent increase. MARTA officials assured Fulton and DeKalb residents that the fare increase would solve the agency's budget woes. The fare increase went into effect at the same time MARTA opened two sparkling new train stations (Sandy Spring and North Springs) in the northern suburbs. A year later, MARTA officials now say they have a $20 million shortfall. Each year, MARTA keeps coming back with proposals for fare hikes and harmful service cuts.
The fare increase sparked protests and prompted a coalition of civil rights, environmental, disabled, and labor groups to file a discrimination complaint with the Federal Transit Administration. The administrative complaint is currently under investigation by the FTA. This past November, a group of disabled citizens filed a lawsuit against MARTA for non-compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act or ADA. The budget cuts would likely worsen an already bad situation for disabled MARTA riders.
In response to this $20 million deficit, nearly 100 MARTA bus routes throughout Atlanta, DeKalb and Fulton counties will be eliminated or reduced. The cuts include eliminating 36 routes, eliminating weekend service on 26 routes, reducing weekend service on 35 routes, reducing frequency of trains, and reducing the transcard discounts for students and bulk purchases.
For thousands of low-income, minority, disabled, elderly, and transit dependent Atlantans, MARTA is their only transportation. Service cuts could mean a death sentence, home confinement, job loss, and social isolation. MARTA should be developing strategies and plans for improving and expanding (rather than cutting back) services for the Fulton and DeKalb residents who foot the bills.
It is ironic that MARTA is expanding services into the suburbs and outside of Fulton and DeKalb at the same time that it is proposing cutting back services to its core riders. Only Fulton and DeKalb residents pay the one-cent sales tax to support MARTA. Yet, riders from outside MARTA's taxing district reap the benefits of the three-decade old system. There is talk of running express buses all the way to Macon. Similarly, MARTA (through service contracts) is assisting Gwinnett and Clayton counties enter the transit field. Gwinnett and Clayton counties recently started bus systems, even in the sluggish Metro Atlanta economy. It is also ironic that these two suburban counties opted out of MARTA three decades ago, yet Gwinnett and Clayton counties have representatives that serve on MARTA's board who voted a year ago for the fair increase and voted this month for the service cuts that negatively impact Atlanta, Fulton, and DeKalb residents.
Clearly, MARTA needs state funding. This problem is not foreign to state transportation officials. The Georgia Regional Transportation Authority (GRTA) executive director serves on the MARTA board. GRTA has the power and mandate to bring some sense to the region's chaotic public transit situation. GRTA and the state need to act. GRTA has facilitated suburban Gwinnett and Clayton counties bus systems to come on line at the same time MARTA, the region's most mature and far-reaching system, has been allowed to falter. "Metro Atlanta needs a healthy MARTA. State support for MARTA is not a Ôbailout.' It is the right thing to do after Atlanta, Fulton and DeKalb residents have singularly shouldered regional transit for more than three decades," stated Clark Atlanta University professor Robert Bullard. Bullard and his colleagues at the Environmental Justice Resource Center (EJRC) spearheaded the Atlanta Transportation Equity Project (ATEP) to bring these types of research and policy issues into the public discourse.
Fulton and DeKalb residents have carried the regional transportation burden long enough. It is time for the state to kick in funds to support regional transit. Georgia is one of 10 states that fail to provide state support for urban transit operations. Without state assistance in planning and funding a regional transit system (one that is seamless, linked, coordinated, and with a uniform fare structure), Fulton and DeKalb taxpayers will likely see an annual repeat of this shortsighted band-aid approach to transit planning.
For more information on MARTA and transportation equity in the Metro Atlanta region, see http://www.ejrc.cau.edu/martaequityissues.htm.
[The fare increase sparked protests and prompted a coalition of civil rights, environmental, disabled, and labor groups to file a discrimination complaint with the Federal Transit Administration.]
And, as we all remember from the Los Angeles case (Bus Riders Council vs. LACMTA), the plaintiffs won't even have to prove discriminatory intent by MARTA. The Los Angeles judge ruled that proof of a discriminatory EFFECT is sufficient, and that intent can be imputed from the effect.
A verdict has already been made, I posted about it here
[GRTA has the power and mandate to bring some sense to the region's chaotic public transit situation. GRTA and the state need to act. GRTA has facilitated suburban Gwinnett and Clayton counties bus systems to come on line at the same time MARTA, the region's most mature and far-reaching system, has been allowed to falter.]
Yes, but once MARTA has failed, GRTA and the State can come in and "rescue" it, thus allowing some governor to be re-elected.
Long confined to two core counties, metro Atlanta's mass transit system is expanding. But the MARTA brand name apparently won't be because it has an image problem.
Some local officials worry that could spell trouble for the future of one of the South's largest transit systems - and MARTA Chairman Bill Moseley said he's even open to the idea of changing the agency's name if it's too tarnished to ever seem attractive to metro Atlanta's outer counties.
Cobb County now runs its own bus service, and Clayton and Gwinnett counties plan to roll out bus systems this year. All will connect seamlessly to MARTA, which operates the buses and trains in Fulton and DeKalb counties. And MARTA may even become the operator of Clayton's system. But the familiar MARTA logo won't be showing up on the new buses.
Cobb has its own name, Cobb County Transit, or CCT, and Gwinnett and Clayton officials have made it clear they will choose a different name for their systems as well.
The resistance to the MARTA brand name has long been a fact of life in the Atlanta suburbs, where some see the logo as a symbol of potential urban intrusion. But it is a matter of renewed concern among the transit agency's supporters, who believe MARTA needs to continue to expand to survive.
This month MARTA is kicking off a $700,000 marketing study to examine its image throughout the region.
"I know there is a negative perception attached to the name," Moseley said. "But a rose by any other name is still a rose."
MARTA's No. 1 image problem is a perception that the system is unsafe, but that could be fixed, in part, with a few well-placed Coca-Cola vending machines.
So says a marketing proposal to renovate MARTA's image as the transit agency embarks on a $700,000 program this month to win more riders and expand its reach. People feel safe and comforted when they're near the familiar red-and-white Coke logo, says the Atlanta marketing firm Turner Fernandez Turner. Acknowledging "this is going to sound crazy," the firm suggests that putting Coke vending machines on MARTA trains would conjure up "all sorts of positive images of childhood, security, stability and Americana."
Naturally, the proposal notes, giving MARTA riders a Coke and a smile would require the transit agency to consider ending its long ban on consuming beverages on its buses and rail cars.
Turner Fernandez Turner is one of 10 agencies pitching to win the job of pinpointing MARTA's image problems and suggesting ways to fix them. Another proposal includes marketing the system with promotions such as those used by the Atlanta Braves - offered by a marketer who used to promote the Braves with themed events such as weddings at home plate.
The marketers all say that if chosen, they'll finish their study this year - which may prove to be one of the most critical in the life of the 29-year-old transit system.
Among the key events:
Clayton and Gwinnett counties, which declined to join the MARTA system in past years, are starting their own bus services this year. That effectively walls off MARTA's expansion to the northeast and south, elements of the agency's long-range plan for three decades.
For the first time in decades, MARTA is in a no-growth mode, with no new rail stations funded or under construction.
MARTA's core jurisdictions - Atlanta and DeKalb and Fulton counties - recently declined to extend their commitment to collecting a 1 percent sales tax for support of the system, a decision that could be reconsidered later this year. If at least two of the three jurisdictions don't change their position, the system will fall out of line for future federal funding.
Meanwhile, the Georgia Regional Transportation Authority is on a mission to create a metro Atlanta transit system, even if much of it won't bear the name acronym of the Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority.
MARTA is concerned, and it will be addressing its image this year as part of a national campaign pushed by the American Public Transit Association to boost the public perception of mass transit. The association, which is holding a marketing workshop in Atlanta later this monthfeb, is hoping to fund a $5 million nationwide campaign over five years to win more riders.
"We did some polling and focus groups and did a list of priorities, and as an industry public transit's image just wasn't very good," said Amy Coggins, a spokeswoman for the association. Also, a survey a year ago found that, when asked to rank public transit as a concern, people placed it well below education and crime.
In many ways, MARTA's image problems are typical of systems throughout the country.
"People in the suburbs think MARTA is a black, transit-dependent system," said the agency's chairman, Bill Moseley. "Some people are saying they don't like the MARTA name."
For three decades the MARTA acronym has been the subject of a racially charged joke: "You know what MARTA really stands for, don't you? Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta."
"I was told that the first week I moved here in the 1980s," Moseley said. "Maybe we can change the name to RTA and it can be the Redneck Transit Authority."
Twelve years ago, the agency considered a name change as it prepared to pitch an expansion to Gwinnett County voters, in part because it was common knowledge that the acronym was being altered into an ethnic joke. An Internet search of the phrase shows it turns up in national publications such as The New Republic and international ones such as the Turkish yazarlar. ???
It's that kind of ingrained tarnish the marketers will be challenged to fix. And if they can't, MARTA officials say they're even open to the idea of changing the name.
But giving up on the MARTA name means giving up an identity many immediately associate with transportation.
"The biggest question is, 'Is there equity in the current name?' " said Mike Paul, a New York marketing consultant who is not among the bidders for the MARTA contract. "If there is equity, then you stay with the name."
The $700,000 contract to study MARTA's image will be just the beginning of the promotion effort.
"My friends in marketing tell me you can spend millions and millions on this kind of thing," Moseley said.
Most of the marketing proposals say any campaign should be targeted to the approximately 30 percent of the population that isn't strongly for or against public transportation. The reasoning: Supporters are already on board and convincing the hardened opposition is cost-prohibitive.
That leaves people who consistently choose to drive past MARTA stations and bus stops primarily because of concerns about convenience or safety.
Public safety "is probably the No. 1 concern of our people," said Carl Rhodenizer, the Clayton commissioner who spearheaded his county's approval of a new bus system last year.
Most marketers in the running for the campaign acknowledge that the challenge is greater than creating an awareness of mass transit.
"In fact, recent indications are that people in Atlanta are aware of the alternatives for public transportation. It's just that they're not convinced that the public transportation experience is worth changing their behavior for," says the proposal by Turner Fernandez Turner.
Some marketers are suggesting appeals to altruism. StarrChild Productions borrows some ideas from the national transit campaign, suggesting a series of themed days to promote MARTA. Among them: "Livable Communities Day," "Try Transit Day" and "Transit to Work Day."
But appealing to the commuter's concern for the environment and the future of the region is probably not a strong selling point, says Georgia State University marketing professor Ken Bernhardt.
"Some people may be motivated by greater good reasons," Bernhardt said. "But if they tie it to individual benefits, that will be a better than a pitch to save the world."
Pratt & Buehl, another marketing prospect, says MARTA should push itself as a connection to the city's cultural offerings. Slogans suggested include "Moving Atlantans Rapidly Through Art."
Also proposing to tie the MARTA ride to feelings of good times is the proposal by Hope-Beckham, one of whose key partners, Bob Hope, used to promote the Braves. During the 1970s, Hope was charged with drawing fans to the stadium and produced such promotions as "Headlock and Wedlock Night," which featured wrestling exhibitions and the home plate weddings.
The plan calls for themed months, including some playing off the seasons of the Braves and Atlanta Hawks, and using sports celebrities such as retired Braves hurler Phil Neikro to pitch MARTA.
Only one firm lists transit-related experience in its proposal. San Diego-based Wash Creative says it has produced campaigns for Long Beach Transit and AC Transit of Oakland, both in California.
But the firm would seem to have two strikes against it. It is the only out-of-state firm to apply and the cost of its proposed work is the most expensive.
Wash would allocate $195,185 of the $700,000 budget for its labor, nearly double the lowest proposal and about $50,000 more than the median.
Whichever company wins the bid, MARTA could use a little outside promotional help, marketing experts say.
Last year's public relations campaign included the animated character "Marti," a birdlike creature that made a few appearances and hasn't yet become a household name.
"Marti? It doesn't ring a bell," said Georgia State's Bernhardt. "They need to let Marti out more."
well, indeed as these two articles point out, the well off elites are not very interested in providing transport for the victims of their economic system. Add the race question to the class realities and the picture gets uglier. Atlanta may be more obvious, but Septa, CTA and LA MTA Bus, are also part of this picture.
One need only remember an LA Times headline from the MTA strike two years back. MTA on strike noone notices (I paraphrase) as in "they may be inconvenienced so what?"
yep i remember the mta la strike
i shot a video on the blue line the day before this event ..........
This is very old news. But IIRC, the next day there were many letters about how stupid it is for MARTA to spend $700,000 to study their image. I wonder if they ever spent it. They should hav used the money to improve service, and, voila, the image would improve
Nowadays, most Atlantans, including suburbanites, are in support in mass transit, I've yet to hear any NIMBYs over any proposed project in the past two or so years. MARTA's problem is that it doesn't go everywhere people want to go. Transportation is all about convience here. It's possible to get to one point via subway, but you would have to use another mode to get to the station. It's rare to have a seamless point-to-point commute on the train if you're not going to work. Also, you have late nights where you have lots and lots of drunk-ass partyers who would use the system if it were running at that time. Bars stop serving alcohol at 4:00am, but MARTA doesn't start running until 4:30am weekdays and 5:00am on the weekend. Meeting the hours up would get most drunks off the streets. MARTA could runs 24 hours, they start single tracking work areas around 9:00pm anyway, so maintainance wouldn't be affected too much at late night if they already have to deal with it late in the evening.
Also, understandably, people are reluctent to use the buses (and it's not because of racism), because NO bus stop has schedules or destinations (although you know that every bus eventually hits a subway line) and only on busy roads will you have signs with the bus numbers that pass by there. You only have schedules and destinations at the train stations. Who wold just go up to a bus stop here unless they know in advance what and when the next bus is coming? I've tried it before, and I ended up walking to my destination, without any bus ever passing me.
>>Who wold just go up to a bus stop
here unless they know in advance what and when the next bus is
coming? <<
Amazing, isn't it? You would think a transit agency would take the trouble to at LEAST give the route name/# and hours of service. The intransigence on this issue is stunning.--SF Muni REFUSES to post schedules!, AC Transit in the East Bay has finally started to post them in selected locations. "schedules? we don't got to show you no stinkingschedules we are the TA give us more dollars!"
About a month ago, there was an article about MARTA studying how to make riding the bus easier. They had ideas from having LED countdown signs to more attractive bus shelters. But NO mention of posting schedules. Looks like that what we get for having a GM from NYC :-)
Schedule? NOBODY see schedule. Our performance could be QUANTIFIED if we printed a schedule! (you learn not to quantify in meaningful numbers if you've worked for NYS government) :)
Could you IMAGINE the carnage if some astute railfoamer knew that the Northbound diamond Q was supposed to stop at Newkirk at 7:38 AM and it rolled in at 7:39? Why, there'd be HELL to pay. Do they at least publish intervals?
At train stations with bus bays, there are kiosks with the headway of all the buses on the system for rush, midday, etc. But at a street stop, all you get is sign that says MARTA Bus Stop. Hell, this one stop I used for a good while just has a small concrete obelisk that has "bus stop" carved into it. There are many of this type of stop and they are from the pre-MARTA days and are at least 40 years old!! If you're lucky, you'll be at a stop that has the route numbers. But of course, these are only a streets with lots of bus service, so you probably wouldn't even need a schedule because headways are less than 10 minutes.
Wowsers ... well here in Smallbany, you have interfaith church services hoping to conjure UP a bus. Sometimes the prayers result in one, often they don't. :)
Here, we have curse instead of pray hoping to get the same result :-)
i do remember the 9 2 5 system and no 24 / 7 to the airport service!
also i remember "no beer sold on sunday" ...??.........!
all liquor stores closed on sunday....why are they open mon-sat.??
i will never forget even back in the 1980s all but dekab & fulton
insisting the ""UNDESIRABLES"" will never bring marta here !!
& why cobb & other buses charge less to board thier transit systems
is a real drag ! unless you get insurance for BURKE COUNTY ...etc...
the auto insurance is sooooooo high nobody can afford to register
thier car in atlanta ( especially in FULTON county )
do they still allow permits to shoot photogaphy of marta trains ??
you have to go to the linberg station & walk to the hdq. 2 get a
permit still right ??
that may be old news but i bet its still going on !!
man do the marta riders get screwed & those bus swiping card machines
drove me almost to drinking i never could get that to work !!
( nyc is better )
Fulton Co has outragous auto related costs, that's why my car is registered in Gwinnett to save money.
MARTA is hardly a 9 to 5 service, there's only a 2.5 hour gap where there is no subway service, much better than other systems that shut down for the night. And people DO ride after midnight, but it's that crucial 2:00am time that MARTA could pick up more people. A lot of fun doesn't start happening until 2am, so MARTA is missing out on people who probably would ride at that time. Those bus card machines DO suck, 9 times out of 10 you have to flash your card to the driver because the machine is broken.
Our alcohol laws are still much better than most other cities, IIRC most stop serving at 2am, and they CAN serve on sundays. That must suck, because there are times where I don't get out until 1am, and stuff is still going strong after 4am. Plus, the police have publicly said that they won't enforce drinking laws strictly, which is awesome.
I've never needed a permit to take photos, I've only been harassed by cops only once, where they said I needed a permit. I told them I didn't need one because I called public relations (I didn't), and they looked confused and started making up stuff about terrorist precautions.
Yea ... you can get the permit at marta HGQ near the linberg station
i used 2 live in apartments walking distance near there !!
after you get the card the transit cops should bug off !!
& leave U alone ..................................................!
register your vehicle in BURKE county and beat em at thier own game big time !!
thats what i should have done
A new automatic signal has been installed on Track M of the White Plains/Dyre Lines. It can be found on Track M, between Jackson and Prospect Avs, and is for northbound traffic. That automatic is positioned near the old IRT type homeball. The transition to new signalling is taking place....
-Stef
There are many new automatic signals between Mott and E.180. Most of them are covered with wooden boards. T/O's notice them right away because from a distance, they can be mistaken for a dark signal.
Here's a funny story:
A few weeks ago, I was on the 5 line, going s/b into Bowling Green, when I pulled some brake because I saw a dark signal. I was just about to call Control when I realized that it was just a new signal that lost it's cover. Can you imagine what Control would've thought of me if I had called it in? Anyway, the signal is now covered with a big bag. I wonder when it'll be operational.
I know a few have already gone up in the East Tremont Ave - 174th St area, but this is the first time I've seen a new signal go up north of Jackson Av.
Dark Signals - Call it in if you must, but be SAFE.
-Stef
He shoud have called it in. The signal might not have been used at the time, but it is still a dark signal and the cover shoud be put back on to keep other T/O from doing the same thing and slowing down the line.
Robert
I can't believe this event actually happens.
Read this: http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=3881
---Brian
Here's the link to the website: http://www.moonamtrak.org
I see some possibilities here for NEXT year. :)
No. NO. NO!
We don't want the Arnine to get embarrassed :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>several thousand folks show up outside a roadside saloon to, well, moon the passing Amtrak trains.<<
Picture David Gunn mooning them back on a passing Amtrak train !
Bill "Newkirk"
>>several thousand folks show up outside a roadside saloon to, well, moon the passing Amtrak trains.<<
Picture David Gunn mooning them back on a passing Amtrak train !
Bill "Newkirk"
Why does the West Coast have all the fun ? Why can't we get some railfans, soused college kids and other Nobel Peace Prize winners to moon a passing (A) train on the flats south of Howard Beach ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You don't want to drop your pants in that neighborhood with all the mosquitoes.....
Yes, it REALLY DOES actually happen!!!
I live about 10 miles from the Mugs Away Saloon where it takes place -- it has done so for quite a few years now. Originally it was a rather quiet, private event, but nowadays they actually put up advertising posters around the neighborhood.
Yes, it REALLY DOES actually happen!!!
I live about 10 miles from the Mugs Away Saloon where it takes place -- it has done so for quite a few years now. Originally it was a rather quiet, private event, but nowadays they actually put up advertising posters around the neighborhood.
What the article does NOT mention -- Amtrak got wind of it a few years back, and of course, the posters somehow made it to the crew rooms up in LA and down in San Diego -- and the usually 90-mile-an-hour trains flying by are creeping at 10 miles an hour or less nowadays when the event is taking place!!
Yeah, that website mentioned in the article says the trains slow down now. That is really hard to believe. But I believe it.
What the article does NOT mention -- Amtrak got wind of it a few years back...
I'm sure they do, especially if the train slows down ....
--Mark
Hey, I didn't say anyone BROKE wind....
The California Zephyr is sometimees "mooned" by people as it snakes along the Colorado River. That also appears to be along-time tradition.
LMAO - sorry, couldn't resist...
well, indeed as these two articles point out, the well off elites are not very interested in providing transport for the victims of their economic system. Add the race question to the class realities and the picture gets uglier. Atlanta may be more obvious, but Septa, CTA and LA MTA Bus, are also part of this picture.
One need only remember an LA Times headline from the MTA strike two years back. MTA on strike noone notices (I paraphrase) as in "they may be inconvenienced so what?"
yep i remember the mta la strike
i shot a video on the blue line the day before this event ..........
An interesting STORY from one T/O.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope that article breeds a little bit more appreciation for the folks who make the trains go ... yes indeed it's like that. And has been for a long time.
Interesting! I use to work with this T/O every now and then because he was VAC relief now he switched close to home and went to the B Div.
YO, guy! Sorry we missed ya. Definitely got to try to work this out for ya NEXT year ... you would have enjoyed it if you didn't have crew call breathing down yer neck.
As to your buddy, yeah B division is where it's at but as I've explained to others, I grew up in the Bronx. The IRT was everywhere making the IND special. Funny though - I *hated* the TA when I worked there, now I'm all warm and foamy over it all. Amazing what 30 years away from the paper cut can do to soften the image.
But yeah, my experiences were similar to his as I'm sure just about everyone else on the railroad can tell a similar story. Have YOU had your cab brawl yet? Ya know, the TA hands out merit badges for each event. :)
Yes I had not one but two fights around my operating Cab. The 1st time was on the No.6 Line S/B at 3Ave-138 St. I had a good old Redbird car 8580. 5 guys fought in my car and I just walked off the train until the fight was over. They where going at it so bad they they throw someone into the cab door and the door gave in. It lasted for 4 minutes and two guys left the station no one wanted Medical so we left. The other time was on the #1 Line at 168 St. A Male and female where fighting by my cab. There bodys where both beating against my cab door. We get into 168 St and make a PA announcement for Police. The fight went onto the Platfrom and we moved out. My T/O is even a fellow Subtalk poster and I'll leave it at that.
Heh. Had a feeling. I'm sure that after a few months after posting, EVERY RTO employee has at least one to tell. What's funny about it is that it's NEWS to the media. For the rest of us, been there, done that, closed up and made the interval. :)
I'm glad you had a good time. If something like this happen next year or maybe New York day will try to work something out.
I may be thinking about making the switch myself in the near future. I already have stuff figured out. If I work Queens or Brooklyn I would have to take the Martz Bus. I can take the 11:10 or 1PM bus in for a PM Assignment and leave on the 11PM or 12:30AM bus. If I work the A,C,B,D,N,W Lines I can still drive to work. I would like to pick a W Job out of Astoria. I just have to get my lazy rear end down to 207 St to look at the board.
If I was to Pick Queens Section I would like to try the E,F,G Lines. However according to the rumor mill Picking the G Line is like the No.3 Line don't even thing about it.
Heh. The G line is supposedly the pits from what I hear - there's only one or two jobs on it that are tolerable. The F is probably still only low low numbers for successful bid and the E ... well, it's a legend in its own chime just like it used to be. And in wintertime, even MORE homeless living on it than the rest of the year.
But yeah, given the weather and that it was a 1689 charter, it would have been a thrill and all but I know you. You would have LOVED moving 6688 more. Heh. But hopefully whatever you do, you'll end up RDO'd on Branford day so you don't have to play beat the clock on your OWN hours. :)
god damn. i thought things were at least a little more tame now... guess not.
Sadly, just another day on the railroad. Job picks come and go, but the zoo just keeps on keeping on. :)
This guy is amazing. I think all of the MTA employees should receive a round of applause for doing work that is painstaking as policemen or firefighters or anyone else doing stuff like this.
It's stuff like this that makes me happy as I greet my daily Q17 and Q88 driver!
Makes me glad that other people from my Conductor's class get to have some of their own adventures.
Heard that Sea beach Fred was seen in the Bronx with his cronies on Monday, cvan this be true? Also riding the Brighton line numerous times this weekend, but NOT THE SEA BEACH
Also riding the Brighton line numerous times this weekend, but NOT THE SEA BEACH
Hmmm....Sort of like sleeping with the enemy.
Heh, and we walked the Boardwalk from Brighton Beach to Stillwell Ave, too.
For a line that is supposed to be closed until 2004, it sure looked like rush hour service was running on the Q to and from Stillwell Ave! We must have seen at least a 1/2 dozen slant 40s on the upper level of the El between Stillwell & West 8th St!
--Mark
And I'll concur with Mark, I was there. You know that Trolleynaut.
;| ) Sparky
Most likely lay ups on the way to the yards.
Probably, and ones leaving the yard, too. I mean, it was in both directions.
--Mark
Yeah, we thought about Wayne when we saw all those slants. I told him all about it the following day.
How many strangers did Fred stop and Talk to on the trip?
Heh, I know of at least four!
- a woman on the M train studying for something
- a kid at the entrance to Hunts Point Ave on the 6
- he offered a tip to a Burger King employee for opening up the restroom for us (the individual refused the tip)
- one other that I cannot recall
--Mark
Is That All:::::::!!!!!!!?
Hey, what can I say. I'm just a wild, crazy and friendly guy. You ought to have seen me on the plane coming and going. I was really getting it on with the ladies and flight attendants. I was really smitten by one of them on my trip home. She even asked me if I thought she had a big butt. Can you believe that. I told her no, that I thought we was very attractive. She reminded me of my Linda from 25 years ago. I think she was about 28 or so. After that I had all the snacks I needed. In most cases, you show a person the hand of friendship and they will reciprocate.
Fred,
Reading about your plane ride I must tell you that you gotta try driving cross country on your next trip. We did it in August to celebrate my retirement and it was the best vacation ever. And you being a history teacher should make it all the more enjoyable. It was so much fun, even with 6 year old Arthur. And if you're afraid of wear and tear on your car, Hertz put us in a fairly new Toyota Avalon for two weeks, unlimited mileage, for only $725. We put 6,500 miles on it!!
Sorry you & Bob didn't make Branford. We were all hoping you guys would show up!
Hey Sarge, congratulations on your retirement. I retired in June and so far so good. I will have to check on leasing a car like you did. Tell me, did you go to a dealer or a rental agency. I have always wanted to retrace the steps taken when we moved to California in 1954. I know some of the roads taken are now out of the way but there was no interstate highway system back then. I do know some of those roads like Route 40, 54, and 83 still exist. It might be the way to go since my wife hates flying. Thanks for the tip and led me know how you went about renting the car or leasing it or whatever. I hope to go to Branford next year.
Fred Hertz, Avis, Alamo, go to their web sites, or I can do it for you
I just walked into both local Hertz and Avis places and inquired about renting a car and Hertz seemed to give me the better deal.
While we were travelling on the Vulture #2 (6406) from Flatbush, he struck up a conversation with a middle-aged lady sitting next to us.
wayne
Back on April 1st 2001 #4 Sea Beach Fred tried to have a word with a motorman who was operating an "N" train, but the motorman wouldn't answer him. Oh well, you can't win them all.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Jeff, the way I looked at it, if I couldn't win him over with my charm he wasn't worth the water, bone and salt he was put together with. But hell, I don't always win them over with my charm---just about 99% of the time.
I recall that you certainly tried to win your charm with that motorman at the time you were on the April Fools' Day fan trip with us last year [2001].
#3 West End Jeff
Fredc was one step away from 4W in Bellview
Well, I for one remember Bldg 38 at Creedmoor...
wayne
Fred has to be best rat spotter of all. You should have heard him while we were running through the Montague St. tunnel:
"THERE'S ONE RIGHT THERE!!!!!!"
It only gave him all the more ammunition to call the tunnel a rathole.
Ugly little bastards they were. In fact, not so little. And how about the one we saw right in the station eating a sandwich right down in the middle of the tracks. I tried to get his attention and he paid me no mind. Just like my students use to do and my wife does.
I have one on video eating a McDonald's bag and he looks soooo cute .... I'd be happy to include this on the D-type video you're interested in .... make you feel like you never left!
--Mark
Thanks Mark. I'll watch it while I prepare dinner. It just might whet my appetite.
Maybe we should send some to Arcadia to run at santa Anita
Always good to know you "Southerners" are looking out for our interests here in God's country.
I've heard of rat races, but this is ridiculous.:)
I ain t no Southerner. You live further South then me, and I live 3 miles further North then Cape may NJ
It's still Virginia, Bobby boy====cradle of the Confederacy.
You are as bad as the crackers down here, still fighting the Civil War 140 years later, and the war started in So Carolina, just the better Generals were from Virginia
And my guys won. My students didn't call me General Sherman for nothing. Hope you're feeling better.
Gee ... and I thought they called you General Sherman for your wayback machine. So it was YOU that burned those tracks! Tsk tsk. :)
Stay tuned for more of The Bob and Fred Show.:)
Now we go after guys from Denver
I also told him that Bob but it probably wouldn't be worth our effort? Colorado? Where the hell is that?
Don't be surprised if Bob and I have a reproachment and decide to come after you in that frozen tundra you live in. Get out the Parkas and turn up the heat because you're going to have a cold winter. As for the Mets hiring Art Howe, pure crap. Notice the A's didn't stop him from leaving. He is dull and unimaginative and will do nothing to get those lazy bums moving. We could be in for some tough days ahead. We needed Piniella.
I jus6t can t get over this thing. I fewel so weak and tired, and the coughing forget it. Been out of work for a week now, used up my losey sick time. but i am alive
Just take it easy and get well. I know what feeling bad is like. Two years ago I had a virus that made me lightheaded, weak, and loathe to even get out of bed in the morning. Thank God after two and a half months it went away, whatever the hell it was. I had just about every test imaginable. Just stay cool and wait it out. Keep me informed.
BTW I am still a Yankee, just like you, but you won t admit it!
Au Contraire my friend. I am a Yankee, an unreconstucted one. It is just that I separate my Yankee blood from the team called by that name. If it wasn't for the team having the same name I would love the name Yankee.
So when I visit Cape May every summer, I'm *that* close to you?
--Mark
Not really, just due West from Cape May, you would have to cross the bay, go sounth, then west Just the way the crow flies Cape May is North of Winchester
At least one T/O.
A woman on the downtown F through 63rd Street.
Some hungry pigeons outside Nathan's.
That's what I witnessed on Monday. After bailing out at Metropolitan mid-afternoon, I don't know what else went on.
Yeah, the Sea Beach was probably CLOSED in his honor. Heh.
We did ride it from The City until New Utricht Ave to go to Coney Island on Friday with Hey Paul(To go to Nathans)
Cool! Did you guys get a tour of HeyPaul's cab while you were there?
Not only did we see it, we pretended to be motormen in it. I actually envisioned me on 4th Avenue cruising down that tunnel like I was actually motoring my Sea Beach. It was a real gas.
Sorry you weren't able to make it up to Branford, you could have *RUN* a train, cuddled a standard, and stepped onto a genuine BMT GATE CAR ... if you make it out here NEXT year, you and Unca Bob GOTTA work that in somewhere.
But FOR your sins, I'm voting for Hillary. Moo. :)
"But FOR your sins, I'm voting for Hillary. Moo." Oh, no please don't. I promise to be a good boy and go to Branford next year. It also looks like your Paturkey is going to win again. That is for your sin.
Heh. Well, you'll be relieved to hear then that I forgive you for going over the fence. You can tell it to the tribunal. Heh. Still, I'll cut you some slack and NOT vote for Hillary (she wasn't running anyway). :)
And as to the Paturkey, we live in Albany. We ain't seen the boy. When he gets back though, he's got a $4 billion deficit to swing that hatchet at when he phone it in as governor. AH, "George ELMER Paturkey - he puts the GOOBER in 'gubernatorial'." Can't wait to see what he hacks the crap out of when he gets re-upped. But yeah, the lemmings of New York would rather have Gomer for Governor than electing some "uppity nigger" with an economics background. Good thing I live upstate in the same town H Carl calls home. He's a great guy.
And if any of them pesky terrorists show up around here, we'll sit them down and make a nice ham sammich for them. Moo. Hope you enjoyed "Fun City." :)
You're a real blast Selkirk and I can tell you enjoy the hell out of life. Hope to meet up with you someday. We would not only hit it off but those who come in contact with us would never be the same. Hell, you probably know that I am a big kid at heart.
Yeah, nobody's going to accuse ME of being a well person. :)
And as to my own philosophy, I live way upstate. Ya GOTTA have a sense of humor to live up here. And if you can't have some fun, then there's really no point in waking up. Moo.
Hey Kev, I forgot to tell Fred you were going to vote for Al Gore.:)
That's OK ... someone ELSE ratted me out. :)
Al Gore? You've got to be kidding. Hell even his home state said no to him, and the Democrats don't even want him to run again. Hey Selkirk, get a mental checkup on this.
Heh. Nah, the wires got crossed. Sparky told you right ... I said at the dinner table with the Branford folks, "Tell that disgratiata that I'm voting for HILLARY!" and as you already responded upon your return, I told ya she wasn't running anyway.
Be happy to get a mental checkup but alas, my doctor's more nuts than I am. :)
Moo.:)
Disgratiata? Ok, Kevin, you are now an honorary Dago. Anyone who can come up with that while making a comment is an Italian in spirit. Anyway, in two weeks the election will be held and then we can get on to the business of panning each other over our favorite lines.
Mute Vamm. :)
words to live by.we Capital District folk,we gotta have the funny.If not,we go the way of Buggs Bunny>>>>looney tunes.
Besides, the snow's gonna fly day after tomorrow - time to turn our kitchens BACK into meat packing plants. :)
Ahh... Bambiburgers, I take it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bambiburgers, Hassenpfeffer, Moose steak and of course Bisonburgers. Moo. :)
Bisonburgers are a treat out in these parts.
Around here, they're lunch. That's one of the nice things about living out in the sticks, the FOOD is real and you know where it came from. Nothing like meeting your meal and petting it before chowing down, no "mystery meat" here. :)
Fred admitted he is voteing for a Demo Gov in Calif this Year. makes you wonder
It was great, and Fred even made all the noises, or was it just gas frokm Nathans
Heard that Sea beach Fred was seen in the Bronx with his cronies on Monday, cvan this be true?
He probably wanted to be on a train with the #4 on the front.
[He probably wanted to be on a train with the #4 on the front.]
Now T-H-A-T is a rim shot !
I do not think they took the 4, They did the 6 and maybe the 2 or 3. I do not think he wanted to go by Yankee Stadium
The #4 trip was supposedly yesterday (Tuesday) - I did not participate in that jaunt.
--Mark
No we didn't do the 4 yesterday either.
Did the #9 to 241 Van Cortland & returned on #1 to 215th.
At 215th, we crossed back over to the uptown platform to
view the Northend of 207th & the deadbirds on that end.
Many deadbirds about 207th, so a barge must be due soon.
After 215th & 10th Avenue, concerned about the 18 minute
lock~out, we walked to 207th & B'way. Steve B wanted to go
to Rockaway Park. We lucked out, R-38 next Far Rockaway Train.
Steve B & Wayne Slant 40 occupied the railfan window all the
way to Broad Channel. Fred explained to ladies seated next to
him, what they were doing & pointed me out as a participant also.
I nodded somewhat till Broadway Junction in Brooklyn.
Enroute from Howard Beach to Broad Channel, passed a new set
of R-143s on the most westerly track being tested.
Shuttled to Rockaway Park. And at my suggestion, after lunch
to avoid duplication, we Q35ed to Flatbush & Nostrand. 38 Minutes
from 116th to Flatbush Ave., including delay on Gil Hodges
Memorial Bridge. I'll leave the rest for someone else from
the group to fill in. Excess Verbiage. >G<
;| ) Sparky
I guess I really missed something, when i left early on Monday, wish I could have stayed on, but had to go
From there, we took a 2 to Atlantic Ave., where we changed to an N to Whitehall. Took a 1 from South Ferry through the new tunnel through Ground Zero, bypassing Rector St. Changed to an express at Chambers St. and took it to Times Square, where we changed to the shuttle to Grand Central. Spotted R-62A 1956 snoozing on the former n/b local track. Visited the Mets Clubhouse Shop on 42nd St., where I bought a couple of World Series DVDs (you can guess which two) and Fred added a Met money clip to his collection of Mets memorabilia. From there we paid a visit to the Transit Museum store at GCT, where Wayne and I parted company with Sparky and Fred.
The two of us caught a 7 Redbird express out to Willets Pt., where we walked through Flushing Meadow Park to one of the bridges over the Grand Central Parkway. Wayne took a picture of me standing at the approximate spot where my father photographed us in 1965. From there we walked over to a spot north of the Unisphere, where Wayne once again photographed me at the spot my sister and I posed at 37 years ago. From there it was back to Manhattan on an R-62A 7. We got off at Queensboro Plaza hoping to squeeze in a trip to Astoria before Wayne had to be back at Penn Station, but after five minutes and no N or W, we caught a Manhattan-bound W to 34th St., where we walked over to Penn and parted company.
P. S. I did ride on a 4 all the way to Woodlawn on Thursday as well as a W out to Astoria and an express J to Myrtle Ave. I even took a Redbird 5 all the way to Flatbush Ave. As it stands now, R-33 9183 will be the last Redbird I rode on.
Everytime I go my Yankee Stadium I get the shakes, want to throw up and want to go to the potty. Enough said.
The way the Mets have been playing, I've nicknamed Shea Stadium the Tidy Bowl and the Toilet Bowl.
As odd as it may sound, we did not, I repeat didn't ride any
#4 on Monday. Did do some riding on the 5 & 6. I was one of
the cronies on Monday & Tuesday. Didn't do the #4 on Tuesday
either or any part of the N.
;| ) Sparky
I rode the Sea Beach on Wedneday morning for about two hours, then rode the F out to 15th Street and Prospect Park. I remembered that place where my cousin used to live so long ago. I really liked that area and was impressed that it is still a very nice place. They now call it Windsor Gardens, and a lot of Yuppies have moved into the neighborhood.
Yuppies, Your Kind of People
Gulity! I forced everyone to ride the #5 to Simpson St, then walk to the #6 at Hunts Point Ave, then ride the #6 to Pelham Bay Park, then ride the BX-12 to the Esplanade and take a #5 back to Manhattan!
I offered to ride the Sea Beach with him later Mondat evening, but the group broke up about 7:30 or so. I had dinner in Chinatown, then decided to ride the last M to Bay Pkwy, then go back to 62nd St, then ride the Sea Beach myself!
--Mark
Is there any website one should be watching to send away for tickets ?
See "Upcoming Events", right here with a cut and paste.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
This is very old news. But IIRC, the next day there were many letters about how stupid it is for MARTA to spend $700,000 to study their image. I wonder if they ever spent it. They should hav used the money to improve service, and, voila, the image would improve
Nowadays, most Atlantans, including suburbanites, are in support in mass transit, I've yet to hear any NIMBYs over any proposed project in the past two or so years. MARTA's problem is that it doesn't go everywhere people want to go. Transportation is all about convience here. It's possible to get to one point via subway, but you would have to use another mode to get to the station. It's rare to have a seamless point-to-point commute on the train if you're not going to work. Also, you have late nights where you have lots and lots of drunk-ass partyers who would use the system if it were running at that time. Bars stop serving alcohol at 4:00am, but MARTA doesn't start running until 4:30am weekdays and 5:00am on the weekend. Meeting the hours up would get most drunks off the streets. MARTA could runs 24 hours, they start single tracking work areas around 9:00pm anyway, so maintainance wouldn't be affected too much at late night if they already have to deal with it late in the evening.
Also, understandably, people are reluctent to use the buses (and it's not because of racism), because NO bus stop has schedules or destinations (although you know that every bus eventually hits a subway line) and only on busy roads will you have signs with the bus numbers that pass by there. You only have schedules and destinations at the train stations. Who wold just go up to a bus stop here unless they know in advance what and when the next bus is coming? I've tried it before, and I ended up walking to my destination, without any bus ever passing me.
>>Who wold just go up to a bus stop
here unless they know in advance what and when the next bus is
coming? <<
Amazing, isn't it? You would think a transit agency would take the trouble to at LEAST give the route name/# and hours of service. The intransigence on this issue is stunning.--SF Muni REFUSES to post schedules!, AC Transit in the East Bay has finally started to post them in selected locations. "schedules? we don't got to show you no stinkingschedules we are the TA give us more dollars!"
About a month ago, there was an article about MARTA studying how to make riding the bus easier. They had ideas from having LED countdown signs to more attractive bus shelters. But NO mention of posting schedules. Looks like that what we get for having a GM from NYC :-)
Schedule? NOBODY see schedule. Our performance could be QUANTIFIED if we printed a schedule! (you learn not to quantify in meaningful numbers if you've worked for NYS government) :)
Could you IMAGINE the carnage if some astute railfoamer knew that the Northbound diamond Q was supposed to stop at Newkirk at 7:38 AM and it rolled in at 7:39? Why, there'd be HELL to pay. Do they at least publish intervals?
At train stations with bus bays, there are kiosks with the headway of all the buses on the system for rush, midday, etc. But at a street stop, all you get is sign that says MARTA Bus Stop. Hell, this one stop I used for a good while just has a small concrete obelisk that has "bus stop" carved into it. There are many of this type of stop and they are from the pre-MARTA days and are at least 40 years old!! If you're lucky, you'll be at a stop that has the route numbers. But of course, these are only a streets with lots of bus service, so you probably wouldn't even need a schedule because headways are less than 10 minutes.
Wowsers ... well here in Smallbany, you have interfaith church services hoping to conjure UP a bus. Sometimes the prayers result in one, often they don't. :)
Here, we have curse instead of pray hoping to get the same result :-)
i do remember the 9 2 5 system and no 24 / 7 to the airport service!
also i remember "no beer sold on sunday" ...??.........!
all liquor stores closed on sunday....why are they open mon-sat.??
i will never forget even back in the 1980s all but dekab & fulton
insisting the ""UNDESIRABLES"" will never bring marta here !!
& why cobb & other buses charge less to board thier transit systems
is a real drag ! unless you get insurance for BURKE COUNTY ...etc...
the auto insurance is sooooooo high nobody can afford to register
thier car in atlanta ( especially in FULTON county )
do they still allow permits to shoot photogaphy of marta trains ??
you have to go to the linberg station & walk to the hdq. 2 get a
permit still right ??
that may be old news but i bet its still going on !!
man do the marta riders get screwed & those bus swiping card machines
drove me almost to drinking i never could get that to work !!
( nyc is better )
Fulton Co has outragous auto related costs, that's why my car is registered in Gwinnett to save money.
MARTA is hardly a 9 to 5 service, there's only a 2.5 hour gap where there is no subway service, much better than other systems that shut down for the night. And people DO ride after midnight, but it's that crucial 2:00am time that MARTA could pick up more people. A lot of fun doesn't start happening until 2am, so MARTA is missing out on people who probably would ride at that time. Those bus card machines DO suck, 9 times out of 10 you have to flash your card to the driver because the machine is broken.
Our alcohol laws are still much better than most other cities, IIRC most stop serving at 2am, and they CAN serve on sundays. That must suck, because there are times where I don't get out until 1am, and stuff is still going strong after 4am. Plus, the police have publicly said that they won't enforce drinking laws strictly, which is awesome.
I've never needed a permit to take photos, I've only been harassed by cops only once, where they said I needed a permit. I told them I didn't need one because I called public relations (I didn't), and they looked confused and started making up stuff about terrorist precautions.
Yea ... you can get the permit at marta HGQ near the linberg station
i used 2 live in apartments walking distance near there !!
after you get the card the transit cops should bug off !!
& leave U alone ..................................................!
register your vehicle in BURKE county and beat em at thier own game big time !!
thats what i should have done
Well first of all I ran into Steve8AVExp on the 7 train this evening. I was in GCT around 4:50pm and got down to a packed 7 platform. I went toward the front like I usually do when I hear two guys talking about Redbirds and railfan windows, so I knew they just had to be from here!
Sure enough, I introduced myself and they were Subtalkers! While we were waiting I let a local R62A go by, and behind it was a 7 express. Everybody (including us) piled into thic packed train. Fortunately, the window was available so we all shared it.
By QBP the train really got packed, apparently there were a delay from an R62A being taken out of service, which I saw at 111th with a red over red, probably heading yard-bound.
There was finally some speed between Woodside and Junction, but the train hardly emptied out at Junction. Steve8avexp and his friend got off at Willets point, fighting their way off that packed train. At Flushing the herd was let loose, with lines for the escalators up.
It was a nice thing to see some railfans, after my not so nice day (you can read about my run in with the cops in Rockland over some hill photos in Bustalk).
As far as other happenings, on the way in this AM around 7:30am I hear on the T/O's radio (R62A half cab, window-yes)that a W has lost indication at Ditmars. Sure enough when we get to QBP, a Manhattan bound W was just pulling in, packed to the gills and not many of the huge crowd on that platform could make it on the train. They did not, however, go to our train. In the Manhattan bound Steinway tube they are doing major work, they have skeletonized track and of course a slow order.
MNRR going to White Plains was kinda slow, even though it was the 8:50am train stopping only at 125 and Fordham before WP.
Still a much smoother ride than LIRR's M1's. Going back, I took the 3:57pm train from White Plains, which was packed and only 6 cars I think. I had to walk through 6 cars just to get a seat!
The ride was fast this time, the train made the same stops as the one I took going, 125 and Fordham. At GCT, we arrived on the lower level track 109 i think.
Well I enjoyed the bus and train rides today, and it was nice having a suprise visit of subtalkers.
Will I go back to Palisades mall, probably not. I did like the TZX busride though, and Nyack or Tarrytown looks like a nice place to visit sometime. Unfortunately, looks like the camera stays home on the next trips!
Aw GEEZ ... and I phoned in the tips line that Steve would be riding the rails and gave a general description so that train operators would be safe from the "Mister motorman, mind if I squeeze into your cab?"
So ... bonus question ... was he making bull and pinion noises as the train moved? ("rrrrrrRRRRRRR") Inquiring mimes need to know. :)
I did hear some air sounds.
Yep, positive ID then. Was that Sea Bits Fred with him? Did Unca Steve dish tales of Branford and the insane carryings on?
No I don't think it was Sea Beach Fred that was with him. Yes, Branford came up a couple of times.
Heh. We really did have a royal hoot up there. Was sorta hoping there'd be an Uncle Fred sighting. I asked Steve to relay back to Unca Fred that since Fred didn't make it up to Branford, I'd be voting democratic as payback. :)
Good Vote. I was with Fred on Sunday along with Gary W and his wife
Kevin,
You better believe Steve B and I relayed your "Bronx Cheer" to
Fred on Monday. Also I kept a safe distance from Steve,
couldn't get near the railfan window on any train. Oh yes except,
on the #3 from Junius Street to 148th~Lenox. Had a single
unit R-62 or R-62A, with the peek-a-boo window in the
motormans cab. Top speed reading on the speedo was 45.
Average running speed was 38, timers you know, but the T/O
rolled the set and didn't miss the board at about 30-32 per.
Enjoyed that.
;| ) Sparky
Yes, that was an excellent run.
--Mark
The C chime on R-62A 1966 didn't work.
Speaking of door chimes, I heard a G-Eb coming from R-46 6120. That R-46 we rode on the F was silent; i. e., no chimes at all.
Kevin,
It wasn't Sea Beach with Steve on the jaunt yesterday afternoon.
It was Wayne Slant 40s. Our party of four split at the
Transit Museum Store at GCT just before 1630. Fred had a
dinner engagement and looking at the time, I decided to wait
for Mrs. Sparky to arrive from White Plains at 1704.
Surprised her and went home together.
;| ) Sparky
That's nice. Yeah, next year you've gotta bring along the missus, she and bingbong can CONSPIRE ... maybe a "chix only" run. :)
Yeah, I owe Unca Fred a serious ribbing for going over the fence and not showing up at Branford. Don't mind me, bustini bustini ...
Kevin,
Nothing personal, it's just not her thing. But she is very
flexible with yours truly though.
;| ) Sparky
Heh. I ain't TOUCHING that one. Moo. :)
It might have been Fred, I am not sure of when he went home,
No hey did that on Monday with Fred
No he did that on Monday with Fred
I laid off the bull and pinion gear sounds except during a river tunnel run. Wayne and I were doing BMT standard impressions as our train labored uphill.
Now Sunday at Branford was different. Come to think of it, I could have added a second voice to 1689 a major third higher, but stayed in unison with its gear sounds instead. I remember riding on a few prewar trains with harmonious gear sounds. What can I say?
Heh. Well, my impression of your froth at Branford (once again, THANKS for putting them up to cab time, though I didn't get enough) was that you finally got the reality in your mug that Arnines could skip an octave based on HOW they were operated ... I screwed with your head every notch of the way by doing my BEST to coast lest the track guys get honked off at their lamps constantly dimming out while ther were doing their serious and made it a point to my own tin ear to make 1689 do all sorts of summersaults while I was at the handles just to blow your rap. Heh. You were a TRUE, patient trooper throughout as I phucked with your head. My most HEART congratulations on enduring the Selkirk. Went out of my WAY to irritate your bones for chuckles. :)
Dunno if you've hit the other related threads or not, but my OWN ego is massaged by learning after the fact that ALL of my whining was accurate, the car IS bad ordered as far as the braking went, and it'll be fixed even if I have to gring the new lapping float myself ... but yeah, it was MUCH smoother with the butt plug OUT ... ya done pretty damned good on your OWN handle time on 1689 even if you didn't know how before Unca Lou guided you through it ...
Ain't Lou a FRIGGING SAINT though, even if we're goyim? Heh.
hey Q Train,how much does it cost to ride the TZX from White Plains to the Palisades Mall? I may just give it a try next time.
It's only $1.50.
Even though I didn't find the mall that appealing, the bus ride was great and definately something not to miss. The ride across the bridge was beautiful. Some buses run express while others make stops at Tarrytown (very scenic) and Nyack.
Whatever you do, don't bring your camera! Otherwise Clarkstown's "finest" will question you.
A $1.50? A $1.50!?!?!?!?!? I dont believe it!!! And here I spent $5.85 on the damn 20 bus of R&T to get there! If I had known that before hand,I would've gone to White Plains on the 1W from Van Cortlandt Pk instead! Damn! Now that's what I call a rip off!Thanks for telling me,now I know which is the better way.And don't worry about camera's,I don't have one so I wouldn't be able to take a picture even if I wanted to.
Yeah and the TZX bus is fast too. And when I took it, it wasn't crowded at all.
Plus you get that nice ride over the Tappan zee bridge (the highlight of my Palisades trip). :-)
do you know what the website for TOR is? I saw it on the schedule that was in the bus stop at Palisades but i forgot what it was.
MS Darlene,
See if this helps you.
Rockland County Schedules site - ... PDF. Effective April 8th, 2002 Transport of Rockland - For more information please call Rockland County at (845) 364-3333. Route ...
http://rockland.touchvision.com/schedules.htm
;-) Sparky
Too bad I can't I can't read cyrillic.
From the official Mscow Metro website:
http://www.metro.ru/map/
>>Too bad I can't I can't read cyrillic.<<
If you click on 2002??? and then scroll down, you will see the same map with station names in Roman letters.
For those interested - as of today, the NYCT active revenue car roster has:
10 R-26s
6 R-28s
18 R-29s
388 R-33s
280 R-36s
Total - 702 redbirds remaining
1260 New Tech cars including:
630 R-142s
510 R-142As
120 R-143s
A division fleet = 2986 cars
B division fleet = 3350 cars including:
1692 60' cars
1649 75' cars
9 67' cars
We're getting R33s that should have gone M-249/K-19/Kursk 'wise.' Better trainsets have been sunk on the first three waves. McK told CI to lock out a door today...we NEVER let a car go unrepaired...it is the tradition of East 180th Street Crew to release a trainset fully inspected and repaired. I expected to be 'balked out' for yesterdays overtime...consensus was 'this is expected.' 239th crew came after me this afternoon...'We're getting ready a R142 for #5 and it's a mess.' Coordinates have been locked in and 'payloads' installed for release...just waiting on the tarmac for a fuel-up. The funny thing is despite all the dirt and filth, I like working on Redbirds and the next class of CI's may not have the same opportunities as I had been given!!! PS 248 should have FOUR fully operational Redbirds...they are a good learning platform. BTW: Branford NEEDS a R-33 married pair. CI Peter
-- BTW: Branford NEEDS a R-33 married pair. --
I saw one in concourse yard. Perhaps we at subtalk could hire someone to swipe it, and mess with the paperwork so that it looks as if that pair never existed.
I think Branford would need a bit of cash if you guys purloin a train. Some to bail you out, a decently large amount to build another barn to hold them from prying eyes and some rail to hold them on. :)
Wait a second...these stinky trains spend layover in the polluted acid rain laden air of NYC. All we need is a side track...I've built a house, a barn, a DRIVEWAY, tools, machinery, done tractor repairs...etcetera. Just need to lay some tracks...I can do it without Rogers help!!! The one thing I do not know about is how BERA handles Winter...can't be much worse than 239ths barn. Time to SK...wake at 0430 for duty. CI Peter
I'm sure Branford would be willing to accept a pair gladly if ALL of the costs are covered plus a "love gift" to apply towards some other restorations and things that are needed. It all comes down to money. Lots of it, and they've shown that they've earned it.
They also asked me to find them a R-62. So I have these keys and can I really drive a trainset to Cuba?? Branford should have a R-33 married pair but there is one significant problem: the whole 'reefing program' had revolved around 'asbestos abatement.'
I don't have enough knowledge or experience to begin the process of obtaining the pair. Time is running out. CI Peter
Asbestos, huh? Well, there's always the R62's to steal in 20 years... I wonder how hard would it be to steal a train?
Come up to the next event next year at Branford, and Unca Selkirk will sit you on his knee and tell you a story. :)
Ok! :)
I've told the story here, but it's lost somewhere in the archives. But it's in subtalk somewhere ...
That would be nice, but who's going to pay to truck them? They may also be difficult to store at BERA as a pair. I have an eye on 8885, the Rail Adhesion (Gel) Car. This R-33 Car has been operating without a mate since its partner was wrecked outside of Franklin Av in 1997. It acts more like a control trailer than anything else, since it has no mate, 6688 would be the perfect power for going down the road with it.
-Stef
Heh. Could have used that car on the railroad this past Sunday. :)
Perhaps. Well, it's nice to hear about everyone's adventures....
-Stef
Yeah, Nancy ran your train for a while, she LOVED it. And of course being the contrarian she is, since I love the Arnine, guess which car she's decided to "adopt?" OH NO, MR BILL! :)
Some wiseguy made this R17 "redbird" BING-BONG ... BIG mistake. Bingbong wants to LIVE in it now. Heh.
When I return to Branford, I'm going to rip that damn thing out. Notorious Pranksters reside there. They haven't won points with me.
-Stef
Well natch, when I keyed in and threw the paddles for the door, hit the announce button and closed up, NOTHING (I have keys, tools, handles of my own much to Lou's consternation at times) ... so that damned bingbong didn't bong or bing for me at all. But Nancy swears she got it to do it. Speaking ONLY for myself, they could of course rip it out of the redbird and put it in the Arnine, connected to the trigger caps. That'd be a hoot.
Geez guy, requisition a sense of humor. Quantity one. Hell, we even got Unca Sparky to crack a smile here and there. :)
You're right. I guess I'm not in the best of moods today.
-Stef
Not to worry, you've still got some friends left. :)
Well, you did say "Moo" into the mike.:)
Well, what ELSE is a conductor to say when you push the button, make your announcement enough times to wake the dead, center your faucets and STILL no freaking bing bong? IRT cattle cars, what ELSE are you gonna say but freaking MOO? :)
You want time, temp and subway conditions, I noted Todd Glickman was freaking absent. I was on my own. Neener-neener.
There must be a separate circuit for the door chimes on 6688. I didn't hear them while working its doors; however, I did hear the load sensing valve. Those levers are cool.
And far gone from subway history. The TA got into this "push button" thang over the years (32's had the pushbuttons too, but I *still* think I remember levers in them before GOH, but I might be insane owing to this being an election year) ... the water faucets CERTAINLY gave you the "old TA" reality where you FELT and used your EARS to tell (as Ed Krotch would say) "How'm I doing?" You got a sose of "screw the gauges, no speedos, better come up with something REAL to operate by and your EARS were your "instruments" on the Arnines along with your ability to STAND when you took too much reduction ...
I was amused by how many times the geese on the train discovered "gravitation" and came to respect same. JUST like the old daze. :)
The R-32s had to have pushbuttons originally. The R-26s were the first cars to have them. Big Ed says the R-27/30s had pushbuttons as well. The R-16s had levers.
Is there any chance you could have been conductor on a mixed consist of IRT and IND/BMT equipment with R-17s or R-21/22s at the conductor's post?
I liked those levers on 6688. They won't budge unless the door key is in place.
It was probably 16's ... every now and then a QB would become a D when something laid down on 6th Avenue. I definitely did a run or two with water faucets in the conductor cab, so if the 32's never had them then it had to be a 16. That's the weird thing about being with the show, you really didn't pay much attention to what you had, you were too busy just doing it and trying to keep the schedule. :)
Water Faucets?
Here ya go ... check out the lower panel and you'll see the "faucets" I refer to - those operate the doors.
Looks as if the side doors on that side are open in that pic. IIRC straight up or 12 o'clock is lock for both levers; 11 o'clock on the right hand lever is close and 10 o'clock is open. I worked that same lever; i. e., the one on the right. The door key is not there, so those doors will stay open until the key is inserted and the lever moved to 12 o'clock.
The drum switch appears to be set to on.
Very observant ... I could have SWORN I'd seen that setup in some 32's, but it probably was 16's ... buttons were easier to deal with though, didn't have to pull your head back in the window and check yourself.
Yeah, poked my head into 6688 since Nancy said "the redbird BING-BONGS, it's MINE!" ... natch when I went in there and MOO'd through the PA and closed up, NOTHING. Arrrrrgh. Steffie haunted me from afar! :)
Bing bong? It's such blashphemy! Now the sound of the variable load valve when the doors are closing, that's a different story. Oh yea..........
Don't worry, there will be plenty of bing bongs in 20+ years. An R-62/R-62A could wind up running up on the country side. I'll still be there while most of everyone else will be gone (and looking gray). I might even be President of the Club!!! We'll see....
-Stef, I AM THE FUTURE OF RT
Heh. I'll be amused when the name change to "TRANSIT museum" occurs, a name that would be inclusive for streetcars, busses AND RT. Yeah, agreed on the heresy. I guess you should be grateful that some nimrod didn't install AIR CONDITIONING in it. :)
You gave me an idea-
The name "The Shore Line Transit Museum" doesn't sound so bad. Would be a wide representation of Buses, RT, and Trolleys.... Who knows? We might see a name change.
-Stef
As fewer and fewer people remember trolleys over the years, it's something that will need to be considered at some point in the future to keep it relevant. Denigrates none, and is more inclusive, yet contains no touchy-feely BS ... maybe the museum can obtain a rickshaw or two, and a couple of Checker cabs to complete the collection. :)
Guys,
This Streetcar fanatic is on your side, yeah the guy that's getting
gray, and maybe the second youngest on this board, but I concur
the Shoreline Transit Museum is something that will have to be
addressed, sooner than later.
;-) Sparky
So does this mean we'll be accessioning some rickshaws and some Checkers? :)
Guys,
This Streetcar fanatic is on your side, yeah the guy that's getting
gray, and maybe the second youngest on this board, but I concur
the Shoreline Transit Museum is something that will have to be
addressed, sooner than later.
;-) Sparky
There must be a separate switch for the door chimes in the other cab, perhaps. BTW, if you look close in the original Pelham 1-2-3 movie where Bud Carmody removes his door key, you'll see levers. Gotta be an R-21/22.
Did you know Bob Feller, the Hall of Fame pitcher, had a car horn that sounded like a cow's moo? Something to think about....:)
Heh. Nah, I'd have to fill out all sorts of licensing papers if a Branford car went Moo. Maybe we can fix up one of the trolleys with one of those and a Curry concession in the rear vestibule. :)
And when you were with the show, you'd get on your interval and just deal with whatever you found in the cab. Nothing in the cab meant you had to do the gate and climb thingy ... all you were really interested in was not screwing up the railroad, not dragging any geese and getting through your tour and go home. Every two weeks, the TA showed its gratitude when the Eagle dumped instead of the train. :)
I meant rigging your autombile with a mooing car horn.:) Our blowtorch AM radio station in Denver, KOA, played a sound bit of a cow mooing now and then. Haven't heard it in some time.
There was a Mister Ed episode in which Ed mooed to a guy checking off cows. Hilarious. The actor who played him and his partner were both seen as bad guys on The Adventures of Superman.
I thought for sure you'd give one of your spiels you used to do on the R-32s when you tested 6688's PA system.
Nah, too busy checking for the bingbong ... y'see, one of my foibles is I'm dead serious when playing with multiple tons of metal and 600 volts coursing through it. I don't get giddy until I'm bored. Didn't get bored. :)
Thanks for reading my post and responding SelkirkTMO! Vintage rail equipment is interesting.
You're most welcome ... and it's amusing (at least to me) that R17's are considered "vintage" but what the hey? It IS in a museum. :)
Maybe next year you might want to join up and do the hike up to Branford, there's some SERIOUSLY "vintage" stuff up there and BRT BU Gate Car 1227 will be celebrating her 100th birthday in ACTIVE duty plying the rails. Won't wanna miss THAT! And if you're good, we might even let ya take her for a spin.
Ahh, all they have to do is run it and hide it in the "76th Street" station.
Seriously though, I remember reading that workers hid some kind of old train somewhere on the system (LowV's?) years ago to try to save them, and that trainset is now in the Transit Museum collection, or some museum. I don't know if it was truth based or legend. I forgot the details of it.
Truth ... it was hidden for quite some time on the express track on the Dyre line in an underpass. I know one of the people who was involved in its move, some other folks here know the person RESPONSIBLE for the move. But yeah, it REALLY happened. :)
Yeah, then I guess it must have been here that I read that. After I posted the above, I saw your post about you posting the story a while back. I do vaguely remember it (probably during the timeframe when the aliens had 76th Street open for inspection a few months back).
I believe there's a UFO fan trip scheduled soon. 76th Street will be the gathering point, then it's off to the second avenue express for some express foaming, then off to Mars. :)
You better believe it's true, the entire set remains alive today.
Four cars are still in New York City under the custodianship of
RPC and the fifth teams up with 1689 at Branford when the LO/9
operates as a pair.
;-) Sparky
PS-Pardon the late response, wasn't really following this tread.
I'm glad to see all those Redbirds are still with us. I just wish they'd show up when I want to ride them.
The R-110B's are still on the active roster? When were they last actually used in revenue service?
All R110s.....As and Bs.....may be on the rosters BUT are unservicable trainsets. So I'm doing Redbird carbody today...needed submap # 1144 and went 'a hunting.' Found the map stack and dipped in a little further: a 1983 manual on HVAC servicing (which I needed,) unused SVC-1 test sets (E-Cam???) and a R-110B service manual (which I will add to my locker library.) Everytime TA gets the vendors together to resurrect a 110, something serious happens.
By the Grace of the Lord not one life has been lost (yet.) CI Peter
There seemed to be more Redbirds out during rush hour, especially on the 4 and 5 last week. I saw several trains of Redbirds on both lines while riding on a Redbird 5 last Thursday afternoon. Ditto for the 7 express.
We saw one R-32 F train on Monday, and naturally it was headed in the opposite direction. I rode through the 63rd St. connector on Friday and let a few R-46 F trains go by hoping to catch an R-32 trainset, but time was running short. Then to top it off, the cab door windows were blocked off with newspapers on both R-46 trains I rode on. Bummer.
We saw several dozen Redbirds up at 207th Street, all their doors off, awaiting their watery graves. Among them:
8938-39, 8994-95, 8830-31, 8896-97, 9012-13, 9040-41, 9044-45, 9282-83. There were others; we couldn't see their car numbers.
If the Redbirds are being mothballed, I wonder where they are hiding.
wayne
That's all you are going 'to sea.' Redbird trainsets held in storage are coming to us...everyone balks that these are '239th cars' but my inspections prove most untrue. Trainsets we are inspecting now have far out-of-date maps and I have observed rusting door mechanism pins....with relatively new carbody paint jobs. PM crew Monday night changed out dozens of safety glass windows...the end of the Redbirds I have posted has changed in the hands of Bombardier...R142s are just not ready to work RTO 24/7. The Redbirds live...with the skilled hands of the 180/239th crew. CI Peter
New, clean, NON SCRATCHED WINDOWS!!???!!! That's the best news I've heard all day! You rule! I hope some of those windows were railfan windows. Then I can get some decent photos/videos looking out the railfan window.
--Brian
'Fat chance in Hell!!!!' Just as stinky and scratched as the rest of the Deadbird fleet. Want to see through unscratchiitied wndows...check out their R-17 at Branford.door panel has a cracked safety glass and its removal is far more complicated than an R33..door panel must be disassembled (need 'TrainDudes Tip of the Day.)
It may not be as bad as it seems, as safety glass has been removed from the R-17 side doors without popping out the panels. I've been told that there's a special tool for that. One of our members has it. Now if we could get him to come up....
-Stef
So the replacement glass came from retired Redbirds?
All of the glass, as far as I know, is original from when the car came up to BERA in 1988. That cracked panel will be replaced eventually.
Parts from Reefed Redbirds would certainly be useful.
-Stef
That Redbird 5 train I rode on last Thursday had a pristine railfan window on the south motor! Beautiful!!!
Wow, I never realized that there were so many new tech trains. Are there any still being delivered ( besides the R-143)?
you said :
What Remains on the Roster
Posted by Train Dude on Tue Oct 15 22:21:49 2002
For those interested - as of today, the NYCT active revenue car roster has:
.............................??
no R -62 count !! why did you do that ??
come on train dude !!
lol
315 R-62s and 824 R-62As.
-Stef
Shouldn't that be 323 R-62s?
David
Aren't they all linked in five-car sets?
Almost all...the cars involved in the 1991 Union Square wreck hadn't been put into 5-car units yet, and 3 of the cars that would have been put into a 5-car unit survived but haven't been used since (to my knowledge, anyway).
David
only 300 or so ?? omg !
i just knew there were more r-62s than that !!......??
There are 825 (824 of which remain) R-62As...they look very similar to the R-62s but are different electrically/pneumatically/mechanically. In total, 1,150 IRT cars were bought in the early 1980s.
David
There are 825 (824 of which remain) R-62As
Not too bad, where was the 1 car lost?
And how many R62's were lost in the Union Square wreck?
I think the information about both wrecks is on the site here someplace...I know people were talking about them recently on SubTalk.
David
Car # 1909(R62A) was lost in a wreck a couple of years ago and was scrapped so you have 824 there
As for the R62's lost in the US wreck in 1991, I think they are no longer on the revenue roster since 4 or all 5 cars(1436-1440) had damage, it was more severe than you imagined. If not, there are 320 of them
Only the 1438 survives operating in another R62 5-car set.
The cars damaged in Union Square wreck were (from south motor)
1437,1439,1440,1435,1436. 1438 was further back, I believe it may actually have been the north motor.
1909 was lost on November 24,1996 south of Hunts Pt Avenue as it derailed and hit the curtain wall.
wayne
How many of the R-62As are still single cars?
If there are three usable R-62 singles, why not use them as one of the shuttle trains, either on track 4 (which is isolated from the rest of the shuttle) or on track 1 (which is connected to the East Side, the most direct route to the yard)? Do you know if this has been considered?
According to another post somewhere in this thread, I was mistaken -- the three cars aren't around anymore, leaving a total of 320 R-62s, all of which are in 5-car units.
David
I saw that after responding to your post. Oh well -- so much for that mini-fantasy.
Nope - the #1366-1370 bunch is OOS; and the entire #1435-6-7-9-40 bunch is gone.
wayne
1436 still remains at 207th St, 1435,37,39, and 40 are gone. 1369 currently resides at Concourse Yard, while 1366-68 and 1370 are at 207th St. There should actually be 321 R-62s on the property, 315 of them are actually in service.
-Stef
Thanks, Stef - saw a photo of #1370 in the R62 page, man he had his clock cleaned! Can't see how they're going to fix that, unless they have a whole spare nose somewhere.
wayne
We'll see. I believe someone said here sometime ago, 1368 and/or 1370 have bent frames. If that is true, this would leave only 1366 and 1367 as working spares. They could be out for a long time to come....
-Stef
Let me know if anything changes on that end; I will update my car file; currently they are two red boxes (1369,1370) and three yellow boxes, will change 1368 to red box.
wayne
1370 does have a bent frame, as seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics2/R6249.jpg
There are actually 320 R-62s on the 'Revenue Active' roster.
Guess the Union Square "survivors" aren't!
David
There is one mixed 5-car link. I believe it's 2 Union Square survivors and 3 from the Mosholou ooops.
I show the following odd bunch, all survivors from the Union Square crash train:
1431-1432-1433-1434-1438 (with transverse cab).
Could this be the one you are referring to?
wayne
Salaam - com'on - even you should have realized that I was only listing the scrappers and the new tech cars but as long as you asked:
These numbers are accurate as of this evening and reflect cars on the active roster only:
R26 = 10
R28 = 6
R29 = 18
R33 = 388
R36 = 280
R62 = 320
R62A = 824
R142 = 630
R142A = 510
A Division total = 2986
R32 = 594
R38 = 196
R40 = 391
R42 = 391
R44 = 272
R46 = 752
R68 = 425
R68A = 200
R143 = 120
B division total = 3350
Hmmmm.....
You note here that there are the remaining 9 R-110B cars (but not R-110A). Does this mean that the R-110B could possibly return to service?
Several months ago one of the cars had a battery explosion. Recently, a replacement battery box was ordered for the car. This is not an "Off-the-Shelf" part but is being custom fabricated. I'd say that this indicates some commitment to get the cars back into service. Will they? Stay tuned......
wow dude ! i better hurry back to nyc this spring and shoot of some
digital stills !!
oh well i will shoot an occasional r-62 ..............
but no r-142s i will never take a photo of them ever !!!
hell no !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1140 vultures! Man, that's gotta hurt. That doesn't leave many to fill the entire order, does it.
thanks for the info-
wayne
Hey Wayne, did you mention the two GE R-32s we saw at 168th St. that had been cannibalized for parts? Looks as if they're up and running again.
Salaam - com'on - even you should have realized that I was only listing the scrappers and the new tech cars but as long as you asked:
These numbers are accurate as of this evening and reflect cars on the active roster only:
R26 = 10
R28 = 6
R29 = 18
R33 = 388
R36 = 280
R62 = 320
R62A = 824
R142 = 630
R142A = 510
A Division total = 2986
R32 = 594
R38 = 196
R40 = 391
R42 = 391
R44 = 272
R46 = 752
R68 = 425
R68A = 200
R110 = 9
R143 = 120
B division total = 3350
which of the following are in that 320(of R62)?
1369,1370,1435,1436,1437,1439,1440
I don't have individual car numbers available
thankz 4 the info !
will i have some boyds to shoot this spring ??
#4 #5 lines ...........?
hang on to em please !!
keep in touch .................thankz .
Pardon my stupid question ...
The 9 67' cars are the R110Bs ?
Si Senor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes they are still carried as "Revenue"...
Mmmmm, Kawasaki is only 121 cars from new tech domination. Is the TA planning on purchasing any more R142's from Bombardier Transportation?
All of the R-142 and R-142A cars have been purchased, though not all have yet been delivered.
David
Ok all, here is the general overview of my trip. I'll post questions and specific observations seperately. Photos will follow some time later so stay tuned. I will also write a seperate switch and signal report.
My trip went from Meriden CT to Philly to Home to Philly to NYP to Toronto to a friend's appartment to the TCC back the Appartment then to NYP then to Philly then home then back to Philly then to Meriden CT. Sound complicated? This vacation left me more exausted than when I left.
I caught the 145 train down to Philly from Meriden, unfortunately Amtrak is still running this "through" train w/ 3 cars and annulling it at New Haven, forcing people to catch the 2:30 regional train there. We got into NYP and did the usually sitting around. I was waiting for the train to go SRO so I went out on the platform. The next thing I know the AEM-7 is rinning its bell and the doors are closing. I avoided being straded because on my car the conductor had manually opened a door so I was able to hop aboard. TALK ABOUT LUCKY!
Anyway, the 5 hour trip turned into an 8 hour trip. By the time I got home and did everything I had to do, I ended up only getting 2 hours of sleep because I had to get up at 4 AM to catch the 5:15 Train 190 out of 30th St. i ran into problem because my reserved tickets would not print out and the window was not open. I quickly bought an unreserved ticket to NYP, hoping to clear up stuff there. The Conductor on the train didn't lift my ticket, but instead just charged against my pre-paid reservation. At NYP I had enough time to refund my new ticket and then get my previous pre-paid tickets. After I dealt w/ tickets and pre-boarding papers check and pre-boarding food run I saw a line of people waiting at the Track 6/5 east gate for the Maple Leaf. Well I said nuts to that and just walked down the unguarded WEST gate. I got to the bottom, an attendand asked my destination, I said Toronto and I got in. People can be such sheep. always content to wait in arbitrary lines. Well screw them.
The train was pretty crowded w/ the Albany commuter crowd, but I held onto a seat by myself. I heard on the radio the conduscor in the last car ask for "a whip and a chair". Anyway, after we passed Croton we started to zoom. We were going at least 90 and possibly 100 at times. After we passed PO Town the defect detectors registered speeds of 92, 86 and 81 respectivly. I saw the new Albany station. Boy is it an improvement. As my train cut accross NY State I ran into two other rainfans discussing hi-speed rail. One was a Canadian signal maintainer/engineer. We talked from about Utica to Aldershot. The most railfan interesting city was Utica with a lot of interesting locomotives sitting around and FL-9's and NYC painted passenger cars for the Adarondak senic Railroad. I saw the poor old station in Buffalo. The complex is mamouth and it still looks as if it could be saved. Customs was not really a problem. We had a US exit impsection and then a pretty brief Canadian inspection. Two great views were crossing the Niagra gorge and the Welland ship canal with a ship in the massive lock. Unfortunately for the latter I failed to get a picture.
I arrived in Toronto ON TIME about an hour after dark so I failed to get a good look at the ride on the "Canadian NEC" from Aldershot to Toronto. I met my friend and we took the TCC to Lawerance where his appartment was.
I spend the next day riding the TTC w/ my friend. The Fare of 2.25 CDN was equal to only 1.50 USD. Furthermore, a Daypass was 7.50 CDN and worked for 2 adults or 2 adults and 4 kids or 1 adult and 5 kids. It is a GREAT idea for getting famlies or even couples to use transit. Also, the TCC has free and unlimited transfers. Up there they say you can ride the TTC until the day you die. Many subway stations have above ground inside fare control bus platforms. The TCC as a system kicks serious ass. The trains have both a railfan door and a railfan seat. They are 75 feet long and you can pass through if you really want to. Acceleration is nice, but they have moderate speeds of about 30-40 mph. The signals are really cool in that their timer signals flash red b4 they run down completely. The trains are very wide and VERY clean. No "itti" of any sort anywhere.
We road a good portion of both lines and took a mid-day break at Union station (it was Sunday and thus not very busy) to take pictures of departing trains and the trackwork. We then rode the east-west Subway line out over the "Viaduct" (where the line is still under the street, but it is on the lower level of a large viaduct) to the end of the line where we caughe the Scarboro Light(er) rail to the Scarboro mall for some food.
Anyway, I went back to Union station the next (Monday) morning to catch the 9AM Maple Leaf back home. The ride was wonderful until we hit the US border where we were informed that the train would be sould out. I was able to hold out until Buffalo/Depew until someone sat next to me. God damit, I thought that nobody rode Amtrak. The rest of the ride was seriously limited in what I could see or photograph as I did not have access to the other side of the car. The sun set just before Albany. I was able to get into the station and I took some nice interrior photographs. We arrived in NYP ON TIME! and I transfered to the 10:20 Acela regional train back to Philly. This train was deserted and I spread out over like 6 seats. That's the Amtrak I remember. I arrived in Philly on time and was able to get home by 12:30.
This morning I got out of bed at 9:00 and left by 9:30 to walk down to PATCO and eventually catch the 10:53 ACELA train to Meriden, changing at New Haven. After a brief bus ride I arrived back at school at about 4 PM, totally exhausted.
Please see my other posts for questions and specific observations.
Well I said nuts to that and just walked down the unguarded WEST gate. I got to the bottom, an attendand asked my destination, I said Toronto and I got in. People can be such sheep. always content to wait in arbitrary lines. Well screw them.
Best trick in the book!
Well I used a better trick yesterday for my 10:20 train. I was scoping out the NTC Concourse when they anounced my train on track 14. Well the NJT concourse has access to tracks 1-21 on a completely different area! No possibility of Amtrak crown control.
Sweet. Once downstairs, did you have to walk far to get to an open door?
---Brian
Sounds like you had a blast. Yeah, TTC is a nice little railroad. As for Amtrak, well ... I've said it again and again, it's upstate's subway. That's why I've flapped my gums about it so often here as though it were equal in importance to the Q train. For those of us up here, it is. That's also why we're so passionate about it too. If Amtrak dies, you might as well turn upstate into a nukular dump. :)
Well I have mostly GOOD news this time. Nearly the ENTIRE CSX Hudson Line, Niagra Branch and Chicago Line from PO'Town to Niagra Falls retain their origional NYC GRA SA small target searchlights. The really cool part is that most of them are STILL on original NYC signal bridges! It was great! I would have preferred US&S machines of course, but i'll take what I can get. There were some colorlight "target" style signals between Hudson NY and Albany, Around Syracuse and Buffalo, but that was it. The only hooded traffic light signal was near Depew due to the result of a derailment. One bad note is that almost ALL the former NYC towers have been demolished (probably for property tax reasons). Only a few brick shelter style towers remain.
Switch machines were all various forms of GRS model 5A's. Not surprising as GRS is located in Rochester. However most were of old school design which was nice.
Canada is still searchlight happy, however even they are not immune to the growing threat of hooded traffic lights. The Line from Niagra Falls ON to the Jct with the Corridor Line had all been resignaled w/ Traffic Lights. The corridor Line and all of Union station still was using GRA SA searchlights and a few instalation of Unalens type signals on high mounts. However the signal engineer guy said they had been found to not give off enough light. The Union station still retained two active interlocking towers and I photographed both. The union station also had what seemed to be a home built type of searchlight dwarf. The dwarf was in a tall rectangular box and looked like a dwarf trafficlight. However each lamp was really a searchlight and it could diplay all three colours on each lamp. It was pretty wild.
Union station used GRS model 5A switch machines, but they were of an interesting design that differed from the ones I see in the states in that the motors had an "easy off" covering.
The TCC was primarily a GRA signaled system with some US&S signals scattered around as replacements. Switches were old GRS transit switches or some new brand of unknown origin. One good thing was that almost all intermediate crossovers/interlockings looks to be controled by local in-station interlocking towers. I have a picture of one of the NX machines. The towers are normally switches out of course.
Union Station in Toronto was rife w/ double slip switches as well it should be. However, New Haven station on Metro North just has 2-3 NEW double slips installed. So that's he last bit of good news I had.
BTW all the Defect Detectors on the Chicago and Hudson Lines still read as "Conrail" and a location.
You were expecting CSX to SPEND MONEY? :)
As most of you know by now, MNRR is having their Open House this upcoming Saturday, October 19th from 10am-3pm at Croton-Harmon.
I was just wondering who on this board is planning to go up there?
Perhaps there could be a SubTalk gathering at GCT? I'd say around 915-930am in front of Starbucks-across from Transit Museum Store?
I plan to get the 958am Express out of GCT to get up there.
If anyone is interested in going, either respond back to this message or feel free to email me. Thanks.
#1706 7 Flushing Local
I'm heading up there but taking it from Marble Hill. Not worth it to head down to Grand Central, and then almost pay double more.
well of course im going, and ive got a LIRR engineer with me. i work for MTA Metro North Railroad, so i will have my orange vest on so u will all see me there. hope to see you all there!
I hope to be going, but I will board that train from Harlem-125th Street...
Cleanairbus
Harlem-125th Street, next stop!
I'll be boarding from GCT-just purchased my round trip ticket this morning. Will a Genesis unit lead the way up there? If so, then I guess I'll sit in the 1st or 2nd car right behind the engine to make things easy for those who would like to meet up. I'll be wearing my #7 Manhattan to Queens Cap for ya'll to ID me.
Does anybody want to set up a meeting point at GCT?
IDK if I'm gonna catch the 853 or 958 Express to get up there. Probably the 853-if I can wake up early enough. I'll let ya'll know later or tomorrow.
See ya'll there.
#202 MNRR
At the 111 Street stop on the J/Z line today there was an incident involving the fire department and police in which a J stopped about 4 cars short in the middle of the 111 platform and sat there for a while... I couldn't watch long, so I didn't see it resolved, nor did I hear the cause. Does anyone know the particulars?
By now we've heard of the MTA plans to reorangize and consolidate operations. One plan is for the subways and SIRwy to merge forming MTA subways.
Would it be safe to assume that the Tottenville Line may have a route letter assigned to it ? Maybe (T) for Tottenville, with the bullet color either light blue or magenta ?
Your thoughts are appreciated.
Bill "Newkirk"
If they ARE merged, certainly entitles folks on Staten Island to yell and scream about their subway line not making any connections. Maybe that 4th Avenue spur might get dug after all. :)
Well staten Islanders, your subway has no connections because your large population of NIMBY's didn't let it happen. Ha Ha!!
Should make for some interesting debates then. Sure glad I not step in it. :)
NIMBY's??
It wasn't the NIMBY crowd that prevented the connection. It was Robert Moses. He did everything possible to push the bridge connection between SI and Brooklyn.
And I heard there was no way they were going to put trains on "his" bridge to Staten Island. There isn't even a walkway on the Verrazano. It would have been a great bridge for a bikeway and/or walkway.
Has it been six weeks already?
-Hank
No, maybe 5.
Actually, I think it was the Depression that kept that spur from being built. I think the tunnel was started in 1929, just before the stock market crash, and it was put on the back burner and never restarted.
Given today's technology and the relative ease by which the SIR line could be connected to the BMT lines, I think its a doable project. However, given the MTA's budget crunch and the other projects going on, I doubt it'll ever be built. :(
It could also spell the end of the Staten Island Ferry, because between the subway tunnel and the Verrazzano, there'd be no real need for the old tubs to run anymore.
It could also spell the end of the Staten Island Ferry, because between the subway tunnel and the Verrazzano, there'd be no real need for the old tubs to run anymore.
Only with express service in Brooklyn! If it were an extension of the RR, the ferry would still probably be quicker.
Even it had been connected, the ferry might still be useful provided that it gives a good and relatively fast ride. Such as the opening of the MTR in Hong Kong does not kill the "Star" Ferry, the ferry is still there becuase it provides a cheap and good service.
N.B. Even if it is killed, it's not the problem of the service, but the position of the pier. The reclaimation in Hong Kong sucessfully killed several ferry service because the pier was placed awkwardly.
Actually, probably not. I don't think people are going to go through Brooklyn to SI unless it is a express service in Manhattan and/or Brooklyn even then it would still hve its crowd. Now it depends on where it would connect to the SI Railway, that's the key. I would be best to connect it between Clifton & Grasmere. Agree/disagree?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
I say go to the end to St. George, then across to 59th street in Brooklyn.
3 reasons:
1. Most of the existing transit (i.e. buses) on SI is oriented toward St George, so unless a new transit hub were built (and there is lots of unused space around there, such as the abandoned homeport) and the St. George bus lines rerouted this option would be unworkable.
2. No new trackage required on SI. SI is NIMBY heaven.
3. More efficient connection should the North Shore line ever be brought back into service, either for passengers or freight.
Lets say that the Brooklyn-SI plan comes to life, would the people want that because you are right SI is known for NIMBY's.
"I say go to the end to St. George, then across to 59th street in Brooklyn."
Not a bad idea since it could go through the Bay Ridge yards to go to SI , which is shorter but I would rather "expand" the 4 Av line with the 4 tracks its supposed to have [local stations at Bay Ridge Av and 77 St, and a express station at 86 St] and send 2 services, the R and another to be named to Staten Island. If people want neither or reject the few plans for a SI'-Bklyn connection, then they won't want it at all.
"3. More efficient connection should the North Shore line ever be brought back into service, either for passengers or freight."
I think it should just be a freight line UNLESS a renaissance or development on the North Shore would justify passenger service (in other words one or the other would happen). Wouldn't cost too much since its mostly intact.
Do you think the SI railway (MTA Subways soon ;-)) would have to go back to having fare control besides St. George? I think it would have to. Agree/disagree.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Any 'tunnel to Staten Island' idea MUST go directly to lower Manhattan to be worth its cost.
Fare controls and security of the ROW must also be installed/improved on the SIR line. In a lot of places, that's just not practical without spending significant funds on it.
-Hank
I thought I remembered our last discussions on this, in which I was pushing the direct approach and you were pushing the brooklyn routing. I guess we've reversed now :)
>>and send 2 services, the R and another to be named to Staten Island. If people want neither or reject the few plans for a SI'-Bklyn connection, then they won't want it at all. <<
Of course the areas on both sides of the V bridge are very built up. When the bridge was built the Bay Ridge side was built up (and it is as much, if not more so, today), and today the SI side is also heavily built up. And you'd have to have new trackage built right through both these areas, including several hundred yards of elevated trackage to vault the trains up to the bridge approaches. This project is a non-starter, dead in the water (no pun intended). A new tunnel across the Narrows would fare marginally better, but at the increased cost of a mile long tunnel under the Narrows - why not just go for ~2-3 miles and go from St. George to 59th? Or 6-7 miles from St. George to Battery Park/Whitehall St?
>>Do you think the SI railway (MTA Subways soon ;-)) would have to go back to having fare control besides St. George? I think it would have to. Agree/disagree. <<
Only if ridership increases enough to recoup the cost of installation in a reasonable time. Or if customers in other boroughs make a big stink about it. You get the substantial plurality of customers as it is now by having them swipe (albeit both in and out) at St. George. However, I would note that a passenger could board at New Dorp (say), for free, then ride all the way into the Bronx on various lines without ever having to pay a fare.
Maybe if the SIR itself didn't actually run into other boroughs, but you had to change trains at St. George, making the SIR into a free shuttle, swiping in at St. George. It wouldn't be that bad since you could have a train waiting at St. George which is met by the SIR "shuttle" so you only lose a few minutes. You'd get a free transfer anyway even if you paid to get on the SIR (as you would have to should you take a bus to St. George), so in the end it all evens out. The only people who get off free are people who use the SIR for intraborough transit, namely very very few people. Maybe turn the SIR "shuttle" into a light rail system, so that service frequency can be increased, and install a turnstile at the entrance to the LRV, like the Newark Subway or an ordinary bus. Does anyone know how much would need to be done to convert SIR into a LR system?
The thing is that trying to convert the SIR to a full subway system and getting rid of all the FRA waivers and holding public hearings and spending $ to change over sinage makes no sence when you can have the same eng result just by keeping the name the same and just changing the management. Look what happened to Amtrak with all the Acela bullshit. Gunn now redily admits that it was just a huge waste of money that provided a NEGIVITE return. In terms of public transit people are going to demand the same old name (people are set in their ways) and better service. A new name and the same old service is just going to get ppl screaming and waste $$.
Look at all those companies out there that have been through merger after merger, but still exist in some form or the other. Otis Elevator, Sikorsky Aircraft, Pratt and Whittney are all owned by United Technologies, but NOBODY buys a United Technologies Elevator or a United Technologies gas turbine. Electric Boat still exists after years ove being owned by General Dynamics. The LIRR has been owned by BOTH the PRR AND the MTA and IT still exists. HECK, the PRR even still exists. The Pennsilvania Corp. is the named owner of many of Norfolk Southern locomotives as the PRR existed behind the scenes under Conrail and then re-emerged in the breakup thereof.
The general lesson is that is it always cheaper to pave over than to destroy.
the PRR existed behind the scenes under Conrail and then re-emerged in the breakup thereof.
Another example of how changing railroad names often leaves corporate entities intact.
Exactly. Look at the New Haven Railroad.
Making SIRTOA (its legal name, despite the last round of image building) a subway line in name could have a number of effects:
1. It would psychologically urbanize New York City's "suburban" borough.
2. It would imply the elimination of FRA oversight, which could lead to a fight with Washington.
3. It would encourage the question in the other boroughs as to why this "subway" line is almost fare free but others aren't.
4. Assigning a route letter would raise the issue anew as to why this "subway" line is not attached to any of the other subway lines, more than 3/4 of a century after the line was electrified with subway style equipment in anticipation of a connection.
And what about the pay difference between the Subway titles and SIRTOA titles??
The different unions??
What about these questions as they apply to LIRR and MNCRR?
What about [different unions and pay scales as] they apply to LIRR and MNCRR?
I believe the MTA has already said that this is not intended to change labor agreements and such.
During the big era of super-agencies (60s, 70s) these parity issues came up often. Of course, everyone wanted to be raised to the highest scale of any constituent entity. There was some shifting around then. It's easier to jiggle these things in an inflationary era.
All the more reason to make this a management shuffle rather than a corporate change.
As to SIRT and NYCTA, if the scales are lower on SIRT and the jobs are comparable, it would not be a great impact to raise SIRT employees, because of their small number.
If any scales on SIRT are higher, they can claim special circumstances. Sometimes you just need a fig leaf to keep labor peace.
I always imagined that the SIRT line would carry the letter "I" for "Island". Yes it could theoretically be confused with the number 1, but that's unlikely given its complete isolation. It kind of works as an extension of the (1) anyhoo.
:-) Andrew
Or (T) for Tottenville
I say it should be S for Staten. That would involve replacing all the other S trains with unique letters.
8 42nd Street Shuttle
H Rockaway Shuttle
X Franklin Avenue Shuttle
Y Grand Street Shuttle.
I think the H should be the Rockaway Park Shuttle like it used to be. But back then I believe it ran all the way to Euclid, not that that makes a difference.
Maybe it should be SI for "Staten Island", going back to the double letter days of the subway system.
Saw this on the web board at Railroad.net.
Although I cannot vouch for his accuracy, one poster stated that VRE has expressed interest in possibly acquiring NJT Comet I push-pulls which are slated for retirement and are up for auction.
Any comments regarding this revelation ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The trains from Seattle are on lease for up to two years. Sounder Transit will want them back. Therefore VRE still needs more cars. Since their yard space is limited, the VRE would like to get more bi-levels.
I had a few quick quesions.
1) As I went up Manhattan on the West Side Connection, I saw this beautiful gray arched road viaduct on the east side of the tracks somewhere below the George Washington Bridge, what was this?
2) Also on the West Side Line, on the west side of the track, near the river there was a green, old-steel elevated highway. Is/was this part of the Miller elevated expressway?
3) Has Metro North electrified 3rd rail to PO Town?
4) What is the top reached speed on the Albany Line for diesel hauled Amtrak trains? 100? 110? Where are these speeds reached?
5) Is there cab signaling on the line from LAB to Schenectidy?
6) Are there any plans re: Buffalo union station?
7) Are there any good technical sites relating to the TCC Subway?
8) Does the LAB Bridge still open?
Just to let ya know, I honestly don't know the answers to any of them, didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. As to number one, my GUESS is that the highway to the east is the upper part of Riverside drive, Henry Hudson Parkway also runs along parallel, so that's either 1) or 2) ... the rest, dunno. I *think* they've got electrons to Po'town now - I know the electric portion USED TO end at Croton North station. Hopefully someone else will have what you need.
Well, I can answer one of them... no, the electrification still ends at Croton-Harmon. I would doubt that it would be extended to Poughkeepsie in my lifetime, if ever, because of the cost and the numerous grade crossings on certain parts of the line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
7 - Not really. The subway isn't covered much because most people are far more interested in the streetcars.
-Robert King
If you were in a position of elected power and had power over budgets of various transit agencies would you use your power to promote your own railfan adgenda? Like would you tell the MTA (off the record) that they would get funding for new cars, but only if the cars had railfan windows? Or would you try to have new route letters added or used? Or would you stop new car purchasees to keep the redbirds running.
If the answer is yes, try to describe how far you would go.
I would have been seriously tempted to block the R142/3 order and just used the redbirds for the indefinite future.
... If I had power, I would block out all the politics and NIMBYS to build new infrastructure favored by railfans including myself such as(having a train to drive for spontaneous railfanning and becoming expansion crazy, creating a new tunnel from 63rd Drive for the G,R to go on the abandoned Rockaway Line, 7 Train to Nassau, and others =))
If you had the power you would want to keep the power and make sure that any non-trivial changes could be justified to the non-railfan public.
For my part, I would use my elected position to pressure the MTA to
consider proven innovations, including articulated equipment and light rail
consider a market model instead of a political model in initiating or changing service--I don't mean service cutting, I mean making services sensible and attractive
study the BMT management and marketing model, which includes the concept that a transit vehicle should be comfortable and even luxurious in appointment
help me recast the debate on transportation to understand that transit is not simply a means of getting people from A to B, it is an economic and planning tool
restore steam service on the Franklin Shuttle, as soon as I can figure out a way to make Camelbacks OPTO
As much of the process as possible, including anything that required public understanding, would be done in the open. I would work to not let this deteriorate into a giant Interest Group Festival but would rather exert the leadership to say "this is what should be done and this is why. I'm not casting this in stone but I want it to be considered."
One of the very few unallowed goods that JV Lindsay did was to rquire all new equipment to be air conditioned, so politicians can be a force for good every now and then.
restore steam service on the Franklin Shuttle, as soon as I can figure out a way to make Camelbacks OPTO
I've never heard of camelbacks before.
I assume this is an iron horse designed by committee.
I assume this is an iron horse designed by committee.
Pretty close. Here's a link to a photograph of DL&W 952, preserved at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis. This locomotive, like most camelbacks, was designed to burn anthracite coal and consequently had a very wide firebox that obstructed the engineer's vision. Hence the engineer's cab was positioned in front of the firebox, directly above the driving wheels and straddling the boiler, giving an appearance reminiscent of a camel's hump. This design had a couple of distinct disadvantages: first, there was no communication between the engineer and the fireman, as the fireman was still stationed by the firebox doors at the back of the locomotive, and second, in the event that a driving rod broke (a more common experience than we'd like to think) the engineer was almost certain to be killed, as the rod would smash upward through the cab floor. Three of the largest users of camelbacks were the DL&W, the CNJ (who operated almost all trains on the NY&LB - today's North Jersey Coast Line - with camelbacks), and the Reading (commuter trains and off-season trains to Atlantic City).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I had the power, I'd do something useful with it.
One, I'd consider increasing the speeds of subway trains. Today, someone told me that the New York City subway sucked because it had a top speed of 35mph and poor acceleration (more on that in another post). In large part I had to agree with him on that. So, If I had the power, I'd try to re-work the signal system so that trains could move faster (let's not forget that R-46's routinely used to do 65mph, the rolling stock isn't really the issue), much like the trains in other subway systems. That is the one respect in which the exisiting subway is pretty sorry.
Two, If I had the power, I'd try to create more expansions. I'd make the 2nd av subway a four track line, instead of the present two-track configuration planned, and send one line thru Nassau St subway, and one through a new tunnel to meet the Court St station on the Fulton Av subway; and on the North end, one branch across 125th st to the CPW line and one into the Bronx.
Third, If I had the power, I'd go back to ordering larger cars for BMT/IND, whether it's the 67' of the standards or the 75' of the R-44. When done properly, longer cars do equal less maintenance.
Fourth, If I had the Power, I'd find a way to operate commuter railroads on subway trackage, and vice-versa. This way, I could tie in all the services entering manhattan with minimal construction.
It's nice to dream.
The top speed of a NYC subway train is higher than 35 MPH...more like 45 on straight, level track. Prior to the removal of field shunting, the top speed on straight, level track was in the 50-55 MPH range.
David
2 Questions:
1. What the hell IS field shunting?!?!
2. Can it be re-activated?
3. Did the new cars (R-142) come with it?
That's THREE questions, but that's OK ...
All you want to know about traction motors (including field shunting) is here:
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
As to #2, all they did was cut ONE wire to disable it, it theoretically CAN be restored, but it won't be.
And for #3, CI Peter or someone who has seen schematic will need to answer that. AC traction behaves a bit differently than DC traction, so I would *GUESS* that shunting isn't necessary by design but I could be wrong ...
There is no field shunting in an AC system. The resistances you see under the cars are braking only.
I just got a job last week :) It's at an elevator controller company in Inwood (no, not that one, the one in Nassau). We use various types of setups, and many are AC drive.
A 50hp AC inverter is the size of a milk crate. It will start a motor from a dead stop to whatever speed, perform braking, and do a lot of cool tricks (such as braking to zero speed).
It's an off the shelf product. You open the box, bolt it down, hook up the wires, and go. The brake resistances are sepperate, everything else is in the box - there's 10 terminals for power, and a dozen for control signals.
I was watching a test of a 25hp unit the other day - it's creepy watching a large motor go from zero to speed and back under control, come to a dead stop, then activate the friction brake (which does NO braking on these at all).
The box has a display that gives you status.
It's quite neat.
BTW - if you think all the computer stuff is bad, you should see a pure relay (yep, still do that, some firms insist on it), controller Vs a PLC Vs a computer board (semi custom design). The relay types have so much wiring, it's amazing. The computer or PLC really cuts it down to a minimum, and lets you add features like crazy (stuff like parking, and Hospital service is a pain in relay logic)
It's really a better way to go (in fact, the newest design we have takes most of the relay 'glue' logic (interfaces with higher current circuits, hardware interlocks on critical systems, etc) and puts it on a circuit board, thus meaning even fewer failure points. And the relays are plug replaceable.
Wow ... thanks for the details there! yeah, wasn't sure about how AC traction was, I didn't think there'd be any benefit to shunting the field coils but didn't know for sure. Given all the phase angle and waveshape games you can play with AC motors (BLESS you, Nikolai!) I didn't see where the need would be, but then again you know how spec writers can get caught in old school. :)
That's THREE questions, but that's OK ...
I had 2 questions in mind, but I had another one, and I forgot about the top line. Kinda like the announcements on the R-142s!
Thanks for that link, now I understand field shunting. (Jeff H tried explaining it to me before, but that didn't work well...
Jeff KNOWS his stuff, but like the rest of us gearheads, what we know is sometimes hard to explain in simple enough terms for most people. Jeff's a whole lot better at it than *I* am which is why I figured "show and tell" would be best. :)
AC traction motors are wired like AC motors for machinery like tablesaws and vacuum cleaners....except they are wired for three phase 450 VAC supplied by the propulsion package. What you see is what you get...speed control is very simply made by something like the trigger in an electric drill times three(three phase AC.) DC trainsets have field and commutator windings wired in series for 300 VDC with 'shunts' and series resistors...AC motor trainsets have just a field winding...no shunts or series/parallel connections. The AC motors are under electronic control all the time...you can hear and feel the application of power by frequency changes. Unlike the DC motor package, AC motors in R142/R142A/R143 always remain wired in the same way...what some think are different points of power is really
changes with software as how power is applied. So what's great about New Tech??? NO motor brushes to inspect and change out. CI Peter
If I had the ultimate power (no limits), I would...
1. Extend the BMT Canarsie to West St and the IRT Flushing to Javits Center to improve West Side Access.
2. Rebuild South Ferry into a larger, four track station serving both the 7th Ave. and Lexington IRT lines.
3. Get the 2nd Ave Subway built in express/local configuration from Whitehall to 125th Sts. using all pre-built connections (Grand St, 63rd St., the route it under 3rd Ave. in the Bronx based on the old el.
4. Route either the 8th Ave IND from the WTC or the 2nd Ave subway from Whitehall to the Fulton St. Subway at Court St IND via a new tunnel under the East River.
5. Renovate ALL stations in the system that need it, making all stations ADA compliant.
6. Move the Transit Museum to either Canal, Chambers, or Bowery Stations on the Nassau St. subway.
7. And finally, helping keep the world's greatest subway system running smoothly for the next 1,000 years!
If I had the power, I'd strongly consider the following:
- Increasing the number TPH's on the #6 by. Realistically, I'd add 2 TPH. 3 if possible.
- Run the M train as a shuttle from Metropolitan to Myrtle, weekdays 9:30a-3:30p.
- Abandon the 2nd ave project. It's a waste of money. Put the money to better use.
- Create stations for the Lexington Ave express at 51st and 68th streets.
- Last PM express on 7 line will leave TSQ at 8:30p not 10p
- Make use of the abandoned LIRR ROW between Ozone Park and Rego Park.
I assume that this is serious, right?
- Run the M train as a shuttle from Metropolitan to Myrtle, weekdays 9:30a-3:30p.
Having no extension into manhattan whatsoever during the midday will just piss people off. The Chambers St terminus was sufficient, and I believe that it will return as such after 2004.
- Abandon the 2nd ave project. It's a waste of money. Put the money to better use.
An expansion project that will alleviate crowding is a waste of money? How do you propose it be better spent? Your salary? The fact is the shrinking size of the subway helped get people off of it. How can you account for the fact that the East Side of midtown has such crappy service, but just as many (if not more) jobs/ residents. A new line right through the heart of a central buisiness district is not a waste. Especially when it will get passengers off the overtaxed Lex. Subway.
- Create stations for the Lexington Ave express at 51st and 68th streets.
51st street I could see. 68th? No, I don't think that's necessary. It would be "a waste of money."
- Last PM express on 7 line will leave TSQ at 8:30p not 10p
7 trains have decent evening ridership according to people here. What is the point of this? Are these plans exclusively to piss people off?
I'm 100% serious on every point. Each point is based on observations that I've made as both a passenger, and an employee of the NYCTA.
- In response to my suggestion that the M be reduced to midday shuttle service, you say "It'll piss people off". I say, "Yes, all 40 of them". That's about how many people are on any s/b M train arriving at Myrtle/Bwy during middays.
- As far as my suggestion to make 68th an express stop being a "waste of money" in your opinion. Well, you may be right. Then I say make 77th an express stop. Both stations are extremely busy, and are usually the cause for a delay on s/b #6 trains. Making either station an express stop would help things on the east side.
- And as far as the 2nd ave project goes, I can honestly say it's a waste of money. Should the TA spend hundreds of millions on a new line when increasing the number of TPH may be just as effective in helping the Lexington line? The 2nd avenue line may end up being, as one Subtalker so eloquently put it, "a multi-billion dollar east side version of the C line".
- Why do you think I'm kidding when I say that the 7 should go local beginning at 8:30pm? Do you know what it's like to wait at 33rd for 15 minutes, while a relatively light train passes you on the express track? Or wait at Queensborough Plaza for a local because you're one of the many passengers waiting for a train to go to a local station? And for what? So a few passengers going all the way to Main St. can have their commute cut by a lousy 6 minutes? And half the time, those express trains are late because people hold the doors asking, "express or local"?
>>- And as far as the 2nd Ave project goes, I can honestly say it's a waste of money. Should the TA spend hundreds of millions on a new line when increasing the number of TPH may be just as effective in helping the Lexington line? The 2nd avenue line may end up being, as one Subtalker so eloquently put it, "a multibillion dollar east side version of the C line". <<
Who the Hell you think you are calling the Second Avenue line a waste of money. There isn't any more room for an increase of TPH without avoiding a disaster. All my life I lived near the Lexington Avenue line. I remember seeing people bunched up together when I was 6, and 10 years later its the same shit. So you need to ride the 4, 5 or 6 train at rush hour before calling the Second Avenue line a "waste of money" so before you call something a waste of money, ride the subway line.
"There isn't any more room for an increase of TPH without avoiding a disaster."
I won't claim the SAS is a waste of money. But with proper technology (CBTC, thoroughly tested), some track improvements (make the Rogers jct a flyover, get rid of the moving platforms at 14th, put in place a center track turnaround on the Jerome Ave line closer in than Woodlawn, and maybe a few other items), and some management changes (e.g., don't waste even a second clearing out terminating trains at BB or Bowling Green), you could run 80 tph on the 4/5/6 between 125th and BB instead of the current 52. All this would cost far less than the SAS.
Even though I was talking about manual labor this Idea can work also.
Aside from the current budget problem, and the jobs that can be lost with the T/O's, that can be a good arangement. It isn't a permanent problem, but it would give the MTA about 10 years max for a more permanent and cheap solution.
>>> you could run 80 tph on the 4/5/6 between 125th and BB instead of the current 52 <<<
That sounds good in theory, but once you put door holding passengers on those trains, there is no way you will sustain 80 tph. More tracks (i.e. SAS) are necessary.
Tom
you could run 80 tph on the 4/5/6 between 125th and BB instead of the current 52
That sounds good in theory, but once you put door holding passengers on those trains, there is no way you will sustain 80 tph. More tracks (i.e. SAS) are necessary.
Widely publicized, unannounced periodic crackdowns on door-holders, with undercover cops handing out summonses like Halloween treats.
"Widely publicized, unannounced periodic crackdowns on door-holders, with undercover cops handing out summonses like Halloween treats.'
Your post has absolutely no bearing on reality.
Widely publicized, unannounced periodic crackdowns on door-holders, with undercover cops handing out summonses like Halloween treats.
Your post has absolutely no bearing on reality.
Why not? If the message gets out that door-holding is strictly forbidden, and more to the point that the police are writing summonses like crazy, it will become less common. That's what happened about five years ago when there was a summons blitz for people taking up more than one seat. For a while there you really did see fewer packages and things on the seats. As long as the door-holding summons blitz is repeated periodically, the amount of door-holding should diminish.
Finding ways to tweak and improve Lex operations is always a good idea.
Building an express stop at 77th or 68th is not a good idea.
"Building an express stop at 77th or 68th is not a good idea."
Agreed. If there's any place where (a) there are plenty of local trains and (b) the express doesn't save that much time over the local, it's for the commute from 77th or 68th to 42nd. Most local passengers get out at 51st or 42nd in the AM rush, so it's not even as if there is this huge demand for express service all the way down to BB or further.
Building an express stop at 68th or 77th is not a good idea? You're right. Actually, it's a great idea.
Even with CBTC, i'm not so sure, in fact I doubt you could achieve putting 80 tph on the Lex line and lets say a delay occurs, that's it service is screwed up. 52 tph is already a blessing(20 tph on the 6, 32 tph on the 4/5) and its jam packed. Whoever said that the 2 Av subway is not important really needs to examine their brain. It needs to be a 4 track line, not a 2 track it currently is built as in the completed portions. This will give the Lex the flexibility it really and desperately needs. I'm only 17 and I saw a whole lot over the years, especially on the Lex line(passengerwise).
Who the hell do I think I am? I am someone who has been a passenger on the Lexington Ave line for years. Today, I am a train operator for the New York City Transit Authority, and still a passenger on the Lexington Ave. line.
And who are you to say that the Lexington Ave line is already running at it's maximum capacity of trains per hour? Let's see some numbers. I want you to convince me that Lexington can't handle more trains.
>>And who are you to say that the Lexington Ave line is already running at it's maximum capacity of trains per hour? Let's see some numbers. I want you to convince me that Lexington can't handle more trains.<<
With all due respect the Lexington Avenue line cannot handle any more traffic. And yes I will happily proove it to you and everyone else who doesn't belive me.
Go ahead. Prove it! Let's see some numbers. I'll give in a little here. Maybe the express tracks are running at capacity. But the local(#6), does not run close to capacity.
"Who the hell do I think I am? I am someone who has been a passenger on the Lexington Ave line for years. Today, I am a train operator for the New York City Transit Authority, and still a passenger on the Lexington Ave. line."
That's all well and good, and you are entitled to express your opinion as both a T/O and a passenger. But understand, that as an entry-level employee, you do not have sufficient knowledge or credibility yet to reshape agency policy or decisions (but you can participate in it, as all of us can do as well). You can gain that knowledge on your own, of course, but your job as a T/O, in itself, is entry-level. When you become vice president for subway operations, I will know that you have a much better idea of "the big picture" and what is needed, or not needed, in the Capital Plan.
Most other passengers (the vast majority, well documented by the TA, the Straphangers, the Manhattan Borough President's Office and the City Council) believe the Lex is overcrowded and a Second Avenue line is needed.
I should point out that, even if you prove that you can cram more people into a train omn the Lex, it is still the MTA's responsibility to do what its customers want. The overwhelming demand is for a Second Av subway to be built, and a clear consensus and mandate have formed to spend the money on it. Therefore, MTA's responsibility is to build it.
This is a democracy. It is not MTA's role to paternalistically tell the people of NY "No, you don't need this subway;" in fact, the agency itself has concluded that the city does need it.
I will respond to this message.
The signal system on the Lexington Avenue Line, as installed, was designed for 90-second headways, or 40 trains per hour, per track. Because of modifications to the signal system (timers, etc.) since its installation, dwell time, the gap fillers at Union Square, and the limitations of Rogers Junction in Brooklyn, the practical capacity of the line is somewhat lower than 40 TPH per track. Right now, during the 8-9 AM period, 14 #4 trains and 12 #5 trains pass through Grand Central southbound, for a total of 26 trains. There are also 23 southbound #6 trains passing through Grand Central in the same period. Historically, the best that has been scheduled on the Lexington Avenue express is in the neighborhood of 34 trains in the peak hour, but there is no evidence that 34 trains were actually able to make it through the peak load point during that hour.
It should be possible to schedule and achieve 30 trains per hour per track with careful supervision and efforts to curb door blocking. However, while the additional 11 trains (4 express + 7 local) would help immensely in reducing overcrowding, they would not provide anywhere near the "bang" that the Second Avenue Subway would in both helping to handle the existing situation and serve new customers (which in turn would alleviate congestion on First and Second Avenues because some, if not most, of these "new" riders are current M15 bus users).
David
"It should be possible to schedule and achieve 30 trains per hour per track with careful supervision and efforts to curb door blocking."
I have been at the southbound platform at 14th St many times during the AM and PM rush hours, and I just don't see door blocking or failure to use all doors as the issue there. It's the timers north of 14th and the moving platform that are taking up the time.
26 tph is 138.5 seconds per train. 30 tph is 120 seconds. I don't see any people management efforts making that 18.5 second difference. You'd need closer train spacing (i.e., revised signaling) and/or getting rid of the gap fillers.
On the other hand, with properly developed, installed, and tested CBTC, and extending that platform north to 17th so that it's straight instead of curved, big improvements could be made.
CBTC is potentially a wonderful thing, but it's not that panacea that some people seem to think it is. As Steve Bauman keeps trying to hammer home, more can be done with the existing infrastructure (I don't think as much can be done with it as HE does, but I agree that it's not being used to its fullest potential).
If service is running smoothly at Union Square, that's also a wonderful thing. But Union Square is not the only station on the line and it's south of the peak load point. Take a look at 86th Street, 59th Street, and Grand Central sometime (not simultaneously, of course < g >) and let us know how smoothly things are running at those locations. In addition, I'm not only talking about managing passengers -- I'm talking about managing crews as well. They have to operate close to identically -- one slowpoke or one "cowboy" (though I like speed as long as it's done with safety) can foul up the whole line by making service uneven.
David
"But Union Square is not the only station on the line and it's south of the peak load point."
I absolutely agree. However, it is the point of maximum dwell time in the downtown direction on the express in both AM and PM rush hours.
I have taken many expresses downtown in both rush hours. They usually move along quite nicely through GCT (they dwell there a while, but they don't bunch up north of GCT). But they DO bunch up north of 14th, sometimes intolerably. Then after 14th they rarely bunch up again, except sometimes at Fulton which, with its blind curve, is a bit of a problem. That tells me that 14th is the point with the lowest tph capacity.
Cowboys and slowpokes also aren't the problem at 14th. The capacity there is slightly less than the number of tph they are actually running, so the trains bunch up north of the station. The result is you have a steady stream of evenly spaced trains coming into the station. If 14th is being fed an express train every 138 seconds (26 tph), it's only discharging them every 140 to 145 seconds.
I admit, if you fixed 14th somehow, something else would be the point of lowest capacity, and maybe hardly higher capacity than 14th has right now. I'm just saying that based on my observations, management changes alone won't fix the issues at 14th.
I'd have to check with the subway service planners to find out what station has the longest dwell times. 14th Street is definitely a candidate because of the gap fillers (southbound, anyway -- there are none northbound), but my guess is that Fulton Street and Grand Central would be viable candidates as well (after all, NYCT picked those stations for dwell time mitigation efforts -- the 'don't stand here' boxes et al). 86th Street and 59th Street (which, if I'm not mistaken, IS the maximum load point) are also bottlenecks.
David
I haven't measured dwell times. I do know that in numerous cases the southbound express trains back up entering 14th and not entering other stations. Maybe that doesn't mean the highest dwell time, since other stations might be able to get them in and out faster (i.e., lower approach and exit times). But it does mean the lowest tph capacity.
If there a relatively big difference in dwell times at 42nd St s/b depending on how many 6's discharge while the express is there?
I shouldn't have said dwell time. I haven't measured or closely observed that. I really mean tph capacity is lowest at 14th.
I don't think that the local being messed up at 68th, 51 and 42 leads to a few expresses to get thru easy and the rest to be forced to get the slack.
I truly belive it is local service improvement that will help the most.
ICK who wrote that. I mean uneven local service feeding into the expresses make the problem worse and like the V eventually better local service will wean people off the express helping the overall situation. At least on the S/B side.
"I mean uneven local service feeding into the expresses make the problem worse and like the V eventually better local service will wean people off the express helping the overall situation. At least on the S/B side."
Maybe you're right. But local service is pretty good. There's rarely a big gap between 6 trains. And people going to Fulton and beyond have to take an express. My sense, which may not be right, but is based on seeing this a lot of times, is that the overhead of getting into and out of 14th street (timers, moving platforms, etc.) is the prime culprit. Of course, as I said, if you get rid of that problem, something else will show up.
On the 6, besides J. Lo the other horrors are 51 and 42nd Street.
The funny thing was this was never a such a problem before the 51-53 St corridor came to be. Giving the people what they wanted actually ruined service on the 6 and Queens lines by increasing dwell times tremendously. 51 on the 6 used to be a place a crew could make up time. The more places a crew can make up time the less of an effect a bad stop at 14st can have. It is not as bad on the IRT as the Queens lines where if you are too off schedule you miss your merge and then you get even more messed up.
Right now, during the 8-9 AM period, 14 #4 trains and 12 #5 trains pass through Grand Central southbound, for a total of 26 trains.
Are those 2 extra #4 trains actually the ones that turn around at 149th St and arrive empty at 125th St?
A #4 gap train is due to leave 149th Street at 8:25 AM and Grand Central at 8:47 AM. That's the only short #4 on the timetable in the AM rush.
A #5 gap train is due to leave 125th Street at 8:03-1/2 AM and Grand Central at 8:17 AM.
David
Ive made observations at 138th St during the morning rush hour. Both of those empty trains come from 149th St. I've made similar observations at the Third Ave station. Neither of those empty gap trains go through that station. Yes, the trains had different designations on for their routes on their side destination signs despite using the same track route.
I've been taught to ignore side destination signs on trains and to concentrate on which track it was on. :-)
Were those observations made before mid-September? New schedules took effect as of September 15, and those are the schedules from which I took the information I posted.
David
They were made 2 years ago.
There isn't any more room for an increase of TPH without avoiding a disaster.
They currently operate 26-28 tph on the Lex. They used to operate 32 tph on the express and 30 tph on the local. The theoretical limit is in excess of 40 tph. Other systems operate at 40 tph using the same type of fixed block signal system. The BOT used to operate the 3rd Ave El at 42 tph.
Significant amounts of increased service are possible on the Lex without compromising safety.
"Significant amounts of increased service are possible on the Lex without compromising safety."
At 14th St heading downtown, how do you increase trains without changing one of the following:
- The moving platforms, which add 15 seconds to the dwell time.
- The signals north of 14th, which enforce a sizable train separation, thanks to the accident 12 or so years ago and the litigious nature of our society ("you knew this was a danger spot and yet you didn't take steps to prevent this terrible accident from happening again?").
Right now, 14th can't even handle 28 tph. By 8:30 AM or 5:30 PM expresses often run slow all the way south from GCT And the "geese" are actually very well behaved there. They let people off the train, they use all the cars and all the doors, and they don't even hold the doors (because they can see that there's another train right behind).
Train densities that used to be possible aren't possible now with the same technology because of the threat of lawsuits. NYCT isn't willing to risk a $1 billion punitive damages assessment.
The first order would be to determine where potential choke points are. Union Square is not the choke point for 40 tph operation on the Lex; another station is. There are no choke points for 30 tph operation.
"Union Square is not the choke point for 40 tph operation on the Lex; another station is. There are no choke points for 30 tph operation."
What management rule changes, consistent with today's litigious society, would allow 30 tph through Union Square in the southbound direction?
It can't even handle the 26 express tph they're sending through there right now.
I said there were no choke points for 30 tph operation.
All that is required is that trains are uniformly scheduled at 2 minute intervals and that they keep their schedule to within 30 seconds through their run.
This is a sea change for a management that declares deviations from the schedule by up to 6 minutes should be declared as "on time".
Structural problems at one station (not Union Sq) limit maximum service levels to 37 tph, however improved operator training should bring this up to 39 tph. The adherence to schedule criterion for 40 tph operation is 15 seconds.
"All that is required is that trains are uniformly scheduled at 2 minute intervals and that they keep their schedule to within 30 seconds through their run."
Right now, toward the end of both rush hours, there is a queue of trains heading southbound on the express track approaching 14th St. Each train enters 14th St station as soon as it gets a green signal, then the gap fillers operate, the C/R opens the doors, passengers go in and out, the C/R closes the doors, the train SLOWLY exits the station as the gap fillers recede, and once it's far enough south the next train can proceed.
This entire process takes about 144 seconds instead of the 120 seconds it's supposed to take. What management rule changes would allow this process to take 120 seconds? It can't be the rate at which trains are dispatched, or the adherence to schedule prior to 14th St, because there is a sizable queue of trains waiting to enter 14th St station.
According to observations I made last year, the time interval from when an express train enters the north end of Union Sq until the doors open is on average 30 seconds with a standard deviation of 1.5 seconds. The time interval from when an express train closes its doors and the last signal within the station returns to yellow averages 49 seconds with a standard deviation of 2.0 seconds. The time interval from when an express train closes its doors and the first signal south of the station returns to green averages 80 seconds with a standard deviation of 4.4 seconds.
Let's assume that the departure time is the instant the doors are closed. The above means that a train can arrive at the north end of the station 49 seconds after the previous train departs and it will take 30 seconds for the train to stop and open its doors for a total elapsed time of 79 seconds. The remaining time can be spent with the doors open. For 30 tph operation this means a maximum of 41 seconds. This is almost twice as much as is necessary for the requisite number of passengers to enter and depart. N.B. the time for the moving platforms has been accounted for in the arrival and departure times, which are greater than most of the stations on the line.
The key to finding out what is happening at Union Sq is to examine how uniformly trains depart from the previous station - Grand Central. If a following train leaves Grand Central so as to arrive within 49 seconds of its leader, then it will encounter delays. Is this possible? I have observed the first signal south of Grand Central turn to yellow within 51 seconds of a train's departure (doors closing). I have also observed the mid platform signal return to yellow 30 seconds after a train's departure. So, a train can arrive at Grand Central 30 seconds after its leader and depart 51 seconds after its leader and still have its doors open for 21 seconds. So, unless measures are taken at Grand Central (and all the way up the line) to keep departure times uniform at 120 second intervals, then they can experience backups at Union Sq 37% of the time (49 seconds + 1 standard deviation = 51 seconds).
Does the TA take any measures to keep train departures withing the required tolerance and if they do how effective are they. One way of measuring the TA's ability to keep their trains on a uniform headway schedule is to measure the headways from two different perspectives: arrival times and departure times. According to my observations the variablilty of the headways as measured by their departure times is greater than their variablilty as measured by their arrival times. This is indicative of a system that practices no process control.
"The time interval from when an express train closes its doors and the last signal within the station returns to yellow averages 49 seconds..."
"The above means that a train can arrive at the north end of the station 49 seconds after the previous train departs"
How does the second statement follow from the first? Have you verified this from observation? A signal quite a ways north of the station remains red while the forward train is in the station. Then, when the forward train starts to depart, it takes a while for that signal holding the following train to turn green, and then it takes a while for the T/O of the following train to get up speed and get to the north end of the station.
You could be correct, but it doesn't follow automatically from the obervations you have discussed.
We are talking about 3 signals: A; B and C. A is located just before the station; B is located in the station and C is located just beyond the station. Signals A and C have 3 aspects; signal B does not have a green aspect. Rail segments A-B and B-C are occupied by the train, when the train is in the station. First, segment A-B and then B-C are no longer occupied, as the train leaves the station, The tripper associated with signal B goes up, when segment A-B is not occupied but segment B-C is. The tripper associated with signal C goes up, when segment B-C is no longer occupied. The aspect of signal A turns to yellow within 2 seconds of the tripper associated with signal C goes up. This means that all the signals before signal A have will have a green aspect in a couple of seconds. A bit later signal B will turn to yellow (49 seconds after the train has started to leave the station) and signal A's aspect will turn from yellow to green.
If a train is at signal A at 49 seconds after its leader has started to leave Union Sq, then it will see a green aspect at signal A and a yellow aspect at signal B. This will permit the following train to enter the station. The time it takes the train to go from signal A to opening its doors is 30 seconds. The total elapsed time from when the leader left Union Sq is 79 seconds. This still leaves 41 seconds to keep the doors open and maintain 30 tph. Only 25 seconds are required for this, when they were running 24 tph in 2000. Assuming a linear relationship between necessary dwell time and headway, this would be reduced to 20 seconds for 30 tph, 16 seconds for 37 tph. There are 18 seconds available for dwell time with 37 tph.
Every time I hear about the mythical 2nd Avenue Subway I'm reminded of the last bad joke I heard. How on earth can anyone be talking seriously about such a things when in the next breath we're hearing tales of woe about New York's frightening finanical picture. New York is going to have to right its ship before such a thing is undertaken. Perhaps a great tourist season and some new businesses moving to New York might get the economy moving in the right direction again. H owever, before any new subway is built it might be a good idea to refurbish some the existing lines. Chambers Street for instance is one slag heap of a place. Good God, do New Yorkers want to expose that as symbolic of New York's Subway System. Of course, I have a suggestion of about a dozen stations in Brooklyn on New York's great subway line that could use some new paint among some other amenities.
Wow, you said all that, and the great all-knowing Ron In Bayside didn't bring you down a level? Hell, I work for the TA, and ride the trains as a passenger most days. Yet, according to Ron, I'm just an "entry-level" employee, yet he does not attack others who offer an opinion.
Anyway, you're absolutely right. Much needs to be taken care of before the Second Avenue subway is given any more consideration.
"Yet, according to Ron, I'm just an "entry-level" employee, yet he does not attack others who offer an opinion."
I didn't attack you for being an entry-level employee. I pointed out to you that, while you have day-to-day experience on the subway as both employee and passenger (which is quite valuable), you implied your knowledge extends to an understanding of the state of the system as a whole, which is not necessarily true.
If I, as a physician, were to claim I understand how the AMA works as a whole, you could rightly point out to me that I am not in a position to see the big picture, either.
Sea Beach Fred, in his tongue-in-cheek post, wants to see more system renovations. OK, that's cool. But I don't agree that Second Avenue has to wait.
Besides, you already know that Fred doesn't wanmt anything new built which would compete with his beloved Sea Beach line. It's bad enough that he has to put up with the Culver Line next to it. :0)
If A is the entering signal you are really not allowed to be that close. Even ST does not let you get that close somehow you must have keyed in which is currently a no-no.
Isn't it a hoot though, how what we USED TO be able to do to keep the railroad from getting screwed up is no longer legal? And how folks, unaware of how MUCH things have changed, particularly in the past ten years but even longer, still think you can do 20 or more per hour without the railroad laying down?
There was a thread recently that amused the hell out of me where there was a 32 sitting at Parkside on the express track about 6 feet behind an Arnine with another train on the local, and everybody thought the 32 was gonna futtbuck the 9 as a "pusher" ... words cannot describe the depth of laugh I got out of that. When I plied the rails, you closed in on your leader as though you were on the ladder laying up so the cleaners could drop a board and move to the next ten cars to mop.
As you indicated, them days is GONE ... used to be, you didn't HAVE TO call command to pass an automatic that was red ... you were EXPECTED to in order to "tighten up the railroad" ... "if you HIT the train in front of you, your ass is mine." :)
40 TPH? Today? Hahahahahahahahaha ... sorry, just needed to be said.
If A is the entering signal you are really not allowed to be that close.
Please elaborate. What do you mean by "close"? Do you mean that signal B does not turn yellow 49 seconds, on average, after the train leaves Union Sq? Do you mean that signal A does not turn green within 2 seconds of signal A turning yellow? Do you mean that signal A will not turn from red to yellow before turning from yellow to green?
Here's what I think he's saying.
If A is red with the stop arm down, and the train is still completely in the station, then the signal before A is red with the stop arm up, meaning the train is at least on "block" north of the station. Of course, in the case of Union Square, the signals leading up to the station are very close together, allowing a train to get with about 3-4 car lenghts of his leader. This would make you think that the train waiting to enter Union Square is behind signal A, when in fact there are several signals before A.
It's interesting that you have spent so much time studying Union Square Station, as if it's the cause of delays on Lexington. I've never had any problems entering or leaving that station. Now watch me overrun it tonight.
"It's interesting that you have spent so much time studying Union Square Station, as if it's the cause of delays on Lexington."
I'm the one who's been harping on Union Square in this thread. Whenever I take a downtown express toward the trailing end of either rush hour, I observe trains queued up waiting to enter the station. Sometimes trains crawl all the way from GCT to 14th.
But once they clear Union Square, they seem to proceed on toward Brooklyn with no more serious backups. From this I deduce (perhaps incorrectly) that Union Square is the most severe bottleneck on the downtown 4/5.
Signal A is green, when the following train approaches it in the scenerio that I presented. The rear of the leader is at least 1200 feet ahead of signal A by that time.
It's interesting that you have spent so much time studying Union Square Station, as if it's the cause of delays on Lexington
It's a challenge to figure out how the TA can generate congestion, while operating a line at only 60% of its capacity. The first thing I did was to make a mathematical model that I was able to implement on a spreadsheet. It showed that 40 tph was possible and that trains would never be less than 700 feet apart from one another. That brought up the possibility that there might be some errant signals. An inspection showed that there weren't any. It's strictly an operational problem. The April 13th fiasco, when the TA tried to operate 30 tph on the Flushing line demonstrated that the TA sometimes does not have a clue how to operate closer to capacity.
"That brought up the possibility that there might be some errant signals. An inspection showed that there weren't any. It's strictly an operational problem. The April 13th fiasco, when the TA tried to operate 30 tph on the Flushing line demonstrated that the TA sometimes does not have a clue how to operate closer to capacity. "
Another possibility is that you are not properly translating a theoretical solution (the spreadsheet, which does not account for many variables discussed in threads here) to real life. Your posts also suggest that the TA knows a few important details that you do not, and that you discount and devalue others' knowledge.
Another possibility...
Did you witness the April 13th experiment?
Hey the V train test went 10X worse.
Keep in mind that between express stations, signals are spaced far apart. About 1,000 feet on average. Since trains opeating in a congo line still need to be more than one block apart, you're talking about trains that are at least 1,200 feet apart. It's only as you get closer to the stations that the signals are closer, allowing trains to operate close together.
The only place were trains are at minimum spacing is when a leader has just left a station and the follower is just entering it.
Consider the following to get a "seat of the pants" estimate of how far apart trains usually are. Assume that trains have a max speed of 30 mph (45 ft/sec) and are operating at 90 second headways. This would place them 4050 feet apart with 3540 ft between them. This is more than 3 signal blocks, meaning that the follower will see only green aspects. The trains will maintain the same spacing so long as they maintain the same speed, as one another. The spacing will decrease when the follower is travelling faster than the leader and will increase when the leader is travelling faster than the follower.
Suppose the leader has a dwell time of 20 seconds, the spacing between leader an follower will decrease by 900 feet, still leaving 2640 feet. The stopping time is another 30 seconds, meaning a decrease of 675 feet, bringing the spacing down to 1965 feet. (The leader's average speed is 15 mph while it is braking from 30 mph to a complete stop.) There is an additional decrease in separation while the leader is leaving the station. The spacing decreases until the leader's speed reaches the follower's speed. This will be 15 seconds at an acceleration rate of 2 mph/sec. The average approach speed during this interval will not be 30 mph but 15 mph because the leader is accelerating. Thus, an additional 338 feet of separation will be lost, bringing the minimum distance between the leader an follower to approximately 1627 feet.
The follower is now at the rear of the station. The follower's speed will start to decrease relative to that of its leader, which is now going at 30 mph. So, the spacing between the follower and its leader will now start to increase.
The rule of thumb is that the deceleration time + the acceleration time + the dwell time should less than or equal to the headway. Both the acceleration and deceleration rates for NYCT could be and used to be greater. Increasing both to previous rates of 4 mph/sec should buy an additional 15 seconds. These 15 seconds would provide an additional scheduling cushion.
I've assumed that the trains started at precisely 90 seconds apart (or whatever headway is chosen). What would happen, if the folower got 15 seconds ahead of schedule relative to its leader? The initial spacing between trains would decrease by 675 feet. Reducing the spacings listed above by this amount reveals that the follower would be only 1000 feet behind its leader, when it was at the rear of the station. Suppose it was 30 seconds ahead of schedule. The minimum distance would decrease by another 675 feet to 325 feet. Clearly, the signal system would not permit such closely spaced operation and there would have been red and yellow aspects way beforehand.
The point is that strict adherence to a schedule down to the second is an important ingredient to high service levels. Moreover, such adherence must be done at all stations - one of every 5 stations with holding lights is not sufficient. Are there aids to mainting schedules short of complete automatic operation? Of course, they are used elsewhere and are relatively inexpensive to install. They do not require a $700 million fiber optic network. My estimate is that they would cost less than $1 million to install where they are required and $7.5 million to install system wide.
Your observations are excellent. But all this statistical mumbo-jumbo that you try to apply to the performance of the NYC Subway, is more applicable to a production line, rather than the 4, 5, and 6 lines. There are far too many variables to be considered that your statistical equations can't calculate.
Amazing!
You see, Stephen, somebody else has noticed that your theoretical work (well-meaning as it is) doesn't measure up to reality.
You see, Stephen, somebody else has noticed that your theoretical work (well-meaning as it is) doesn't measure up to reality.
Have they actually tried them or are they just saying "it can't work"?
At least, I can cite examples of systems that have applied them successfully. It does provide some satisfaction when theory and practice coincide.
"At least, I can cite examples of systems that have applied them successfully. It does provide some satisfaction when theory and practice coincide. "
Not in the US environment. Makes a huge difference (which you ignore).
Again, why all the talk of a Second Avenue Subway. It is not going to happen in the forseeable future and that was before September 11. Now with the New York City economy hurting only a large infusion of federal money can make it happen and the feds are not going to reach into their pockets.
"Again, why all the talk of a Second Avenue Subway. It is not going to happen in the forseeable future and that was before September 11. Now with the New York City economy hurting only a large infusion of federal money can make it happen and the feds are not going to reach into their pockets"
That's your personal opinion, and you're entitled to it.
As long as the project is supported by the Capital Plan, it moves forward, and is worthy of attention.
If it does happen, it'll be a huge waste of money.
I was studying the A divison timetable the other night, and was shocked to see the exaggeration in the number of TPH's compared to what I've read on these boards. Especially on the 4, 6, and 7 lines. Two-minute headways is just a myth. Three-minute headways are very limited to no more than a ten or twenty-minute period on the 6 and 7 lines, but it's very rare. There may be one or two intervals that are two-minutes apart, and a few that are three-minutes apart, but it's only for a few minutes. There's definitely room for more trains on the 6 line, which is why I'm against the 2nd Ave project. I don't see the logic in building another subway line when the one already in place can simply increase service to accomodate it's customers.
"There's definitely room for more trains on the 6 line, which is why I'm against the 2nd Ave project. I don't see the logic in building another subway line when the one already in place can simply increase service to accomodate it's customers. "
Trying to make specifically the 6 line substitute for service further east is laughable, even incompetent.
To a degree, I agree with you. I used to have to travel all the way to 91st and FDR Drive, at the Asphalt Green Health Club. That meant walking from either 86th or 96th and Lexington. It was a long walk.
And I'm sure some of the residents of this neighborhood feel the same way. Others, however, don't want a subway because they feel it will change their neighborhood for the worse. What makes that part of Manhattan so nice and quiet is the fact that it's kind of far from the subway, which keeps outsiders out of the neighborhood.
Please understand the point I'm making. People are saying that the 2nd Ave Subway is needed to relieve overcrowding on the Lexington Ave line. And my response to that statement is total disagreement based on what I see everyday as a T/O, and what I've discovered by researching the A divsion timetables.
"And I'm sure some of the residents of this neighborhood feel the same way."
Nearly all of them do.
"Others, however, don't want a subway because they feel it will change their neighborhood for the worse."
You can literally count those on the fingers of one hand.
" What makes that part of Manhattan so nice and quiet is the fact that it's kind of far from the subway, which keeps outsiders out of the neighborhood."
Do you really believe that? If you do, would you like to buy the upper deck of the George Washington? I'd sell you the Breooklyn Bridge but another sucker (I mean, purchaser) bought it from me last week.
You are in serious need of a reality check.
You said it right Ron.He's in need of it BADLY!
RonInBayside. Are you really in Bayside? Or are you 100 miles away in Philly these days? Either way, it seems as though you no longer have your finger on the pulse of New York.
By the way, if you want a good example of the benefits of not having subway service in your neighborhood, look no further than your hometown. Bayside.
This is the one problem inherent in discussing subway service with subway buffs. Everyone thinks that the answer is always, "extend existing lines". This war-cry comes from an obsession with subways, and a burning desire to ride new lines, rather than looking at the facts, or finding out what the residents of the affected neighborhoods really think. Buffs turn a deaf ear to those people, and simply label them as NIMBY's, as opposed to people whose lives can forever be changed in a negative way by a new line.
"RonInBayside. Are you really in Bayside? Or are you 100 miles away in Philly these days? Either way, it seems as though you no longer have your finger on the pulse of New York. "
You're entitled to your opinion. Chances are, though, I've spent more time on the Lexington Av line in my lifetime than you ever have, even as an employee. And I've ridden, at one time or another, every mile of every other line, too, except for the Franklin Shuttle.
"By the way, if you want a good example of the benefits of not having subway service in your neighborhood, look no further than your hometown. Bayside."
That's truly unfortunate. I personally favor subway service in Bayside. By the way, in 1968 the Board of Estimate approved subway service extending to Bayside. I'm sorry it didn't happen. :0(
"This is the one problem inherent in discussing subway service with subway buffs. Everyone thinks that the answer is always, "extend existing lines". "
Virtualy everyone in Manhattan has asked for a Second Av Subway - which is not an extension. It's a brand new line.
"This war-cry comes from an obsession with subways, and a burning desire to ride new lines, rather than looking at the facts, or finding out what the residents of the affected neighborhoods really think."
Well, you're certainly guilty of the latter. You haven't a clue as to what people on the East Side really want. And you're right there every day. Stick your head out of the motorman's cab once in a while.
"Buffs turn a deaf ear to those people, and simply label them as NIMBY's, as opposed to people whose lives can forever be changed in a negative way by a new line."
New subway lines are proven to increase property values, commerce and even help reduce crime. And Second Av in particular doesn't have a NIMBY problem, thankfully. You really don't know what you're talking about. But that's OK. You don't need to make policy to earn your paycheck; we appreciate your safely operating your train. :0)
You can call me a railbuff if you want. I take a lot of satisfaction in having had a hand in the two most recent rail expansions, especially in getting proposals accepted by MTA. That speaks for itself.
You're telling me to stick my head out of the window? I do so at nearly every station.
When are you going to be railfanning on Lexington Ave in the near future? I'd like to meet up with you. We can both see firsthand why overcrowding on the Lexington Ave corridor is more of an exaggeration than a real problem.
What projects have you had a hand in? Be more specific.
"You're telling me to stick my head out of the window? I do so at nearly every station."
With safety goggles on, I hope. I'm not being sarcastic here, actually.
"When are you going to be railfanning on Lexington Ave in the near future? I'd like to meet up with you.
I don't have time to "railfan." When I ride, it is as a passenger going from A to B.(but have ridden a hell of a lot, sometimes multiple trips per day, and I've never owned a car). I've never had occasion to ride past 2AM, though.
Oddly, one of my most pleasant rides was on a sparsely populated A train at 12:30 AM leaving the GWB bus station (175 St) - a Budd Brightliner just having been washed. It was spotless, had realitively little "scratchitti" and still smelled of lemon. Sometimes riding can be its own reward.
Right now, I generally go to NY every couple of weeks to every several weeks, depending. I have an infectious disease course to attend in November in Manhattan, so I will be there then.
"We can both see firsthand why overcrowding on the Lexington Ave corridor is more of an exaggeration than a real problem.""
Well, we'll both see - but I predict that's not what we'll be seeing. But if you drop me an email (my Subtalk handle is active), maybe we can meet up at some point.
Note that overcrowding is one issue (though important). The other is the loud and repeated demand by residents in local neighborhoods along Second Avenue for subway service, as well as demand from employees and clients of medical centers east of Second Av for subway service. One of the nicest things MTA can do for patients and families (and employees) coming to or leaving Cornell, NYU and similar places is provide ADA-compliant subway stations closer to them than the Lex is now.
"What projects have you had a hand in? Be more specific."
1) Getting the Second Av project onto the Capital Plan and helping secure support in the assembly and Senate for it (worked on a task force for it)
2) Volunteer lobbying role on AirTrain and was effective enough to have had an airline lobbyist come to within 2 inches of my face and almost try to punch me after a community board meeting
3) Submitted and advocated for specific ideas for the 63rd Street service plan by mail, phone and public hearings (and seeing two of them adopted).
"We can both see firsthand why overcrowding on the Lexington Ave corridor is more of an exaggeration than a real problem."
I can tell you some things that aren't an exaggeration, that I repeatedly see firsthand on the Lex:
- Expresses crawl southbound all the way from GCT to 14th in both rush hours.
- Being really nervous that if I let myself get too far toward the inside of a car I won't be able to get off at my stop.
- Frequently not being able to board a train because it's totally full.
Could there be more trains on the Lex? Probably a few more locals, but not more expresses, at least not with the current technology and litigious environment.
There was one good outcome of my being crushed in the Lex' sardine cans:
One day an artist had gotten his bicycle aboard in Brooklyn (he boarded very early) and a bunch of us were squeezed around him. He balanced on his bike and drew a portrait of an adorable little girl in front of him sitting on the seat. He gave several of us an impromptu art class. I liked his portrait so much he tore it off, signed it and gave it to me. My wife had it framed and it now hangs in our living room.
We can both see firsthand why overcrowding on the Lexington Ave corridor is more of an exaggeration than a real problem.
You must live in a fantasy world. I've got it! You live in New Amsterdam, while the rest of us are talking about New York. Sorry for the confusion.
New York City's Lexington Avenue subway faces the following problems that result in overcrowding:
1. Population density. I'm sure You've heard many times about how the east side is more crowded than the west, but the West side still has more train service. This is not an exaggeration. It really is like this in New York City. I know that lexington av trains in New Amsterdam are empty around 42nd st because there's lots of farmland there (and it's still considered a suburb), but in New York City, comercial development has boomed in that area. For a long time, comercial development was lagging behind on the west side in midtown (that's changed now with the Times Sq. redevelopment, and a number of other new projects, such as the AOL Time Warner center).
2. Transit Connections. In New Amsterdam, 42nd st is pretty desolate on both the east and west side, but on the east side in New York City, we have this big terminal called "Grand Central Terminal." Haven't you found it weird that Grand Central is the second busiest station in New York? Do you think that these people all get on the 7 train? I think that a lot of them get on the Lex line. What happens in New Amsterdam?
3. Definition of "crowding". I ride New York City Transit on a daily basis. Usually, I get the "A" or "C" train at High or Jay sts. Those trains are sometimes crowded to the point where you are pressed up against the person next to you, but rarely. Still, it would constitute as 'crowded'. Lexington trains are always like that, especially at Fulton St. (Manhattan, New York City). I rode the 4/5 on a regular basis for a little while, and those trains are stuffed. Maybe you think that's okay, but it really isn't. Question: How do you define crowding in New Amsterdam.
4. Ridership levels. Ridership is down a WHOLE lot since the 50's. Yet trains are still crowded. How is that? Could it be, YES, the system has shrank! The fact that there was another line traversing manhattan is a big fact. I doubt that NYCT could handle the rush hour crowds that were experienced back then today. In fact, I think that's why ridership slacked off; not enough room for the people. Of course, in New Amsterdam, the Lex line has enough capacity for all of Lower Manhattan's population a couple of times over, so you don't have to worry about it there.
If Increasing TPH were a realistic proposition, then I'd be all for it. But that's really not going to solve the problem. Expresses are already backed up, and the locals miss a crucial station: B'way Nassau. But even that would not completely relieve the crowding currently experienced, and the current pattern leaves no room for a lot of things, including ridership level increase or train delays. New Amsterdam might have a nice transit system (actually, it has none), but it doesn't have the problems that NYCT faces.
Hey loco, where have you been? I posted a message to you about a week ago asking you for the daypart when the #4 line runs "18 TPH" as you said. Please get back to me. I'm still trying to find a single daypart when the #4 goes to 18 TPH.
A Second Avenue Subway is needed. Not only does the East Side need another subway, but the city does too. Please remember that the Lexington Avenue Line was near capacity after its OPENING in the 1930s. You should also understand that no additional lines in the outer boroughs can be built without a trunk line to feed into.
It's not just about Manhattan, and it's not just about 2002. If the original builders built two-track lines like in DC, we'd be in a LOT of trouble right now.
Lex was running almost 20 years by the 1930s. Construction began in 1909 as part of the TRI BORO SYSTEM....along with the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn.
Keep in mind that there are times when some stupid,zero brained,school punk decided to be the biggest jackass in the world and cause delays on the 6 or some other type of reason occurs for a delay.So if something like that happened with an increase of 6 service,a big mess is sure to follow and that's what need's to be avoided.
So sorry to flat out disagree with you,but to me there really need's to be a 2nd Av. subway line because relieveing overcrowding is more important than people saying that it'll change thier neighborhood for the worse.They have to get out of that train of thought and think about how important it'll be for them instead of the negative things,which quite frankly I find none.Who the heck would want to walk to Lexington Av or take a long,slow bus ride or pay 20 bucks or so just to go to work when they got a subway right on thier doorstep right? If I lived along 2nd Av. I'd be all for the new subway without regrets but even though I don't,I still would like to see it happen.
The overcrowding on the Lexington lines is just flat out unbelieveable.Any more tighter and you'd be squahed into something worse than a pancake.And also keep in mind that whatever extention plan or any other type of plan the TA comes up with,it's done for the benefit of the people not the opposite.If they did it for the worse,they'd have wasted their time and money on a very expensive project.
"and what I've discovered by researching the A divsion timetables."
Take a look at post 399892. How can you increase 4/5 express service above the current 26 tph without major new technology improvements?
Trying to make specifically the 6 line substitute for service further east is laughable, even incompetent.
We've been over this before. In the absence of a citywide policy of how far each point should be from a subway entrance, I suggested that we apply the criterion for free bus service for 10 year old school children. If a child is within 3/4 mile of his/her school then that child walks. Using that criterion, the only people who would be declared to be deprived would be those residing on E 92nd St east of East End Ave. AFAIK, that's a very small population, limited to residents of Gracie Mansion.
It has been suggested that the average Upper East Sider was less capable of walking than the average 10 year old. However, the Second Ave Subway will not add any more areas to those that are already within walking distance of a subway stop.
"If a child is within 3/4 mile of his/her school then that child walks. Using that criterion, the only people who would be declared to be deprived would be those residing on E 92nd St east of East End Ave."
Your distance measurements are off. It's 0.7 mi from Lex to East End, so most of East End is more than 0.75 mi from a subway entrance. Parts of York are too, as are much of the blocks between York and East End. Also, of course, much of the area from Ave C to the FDR Drive is more than 0.75 mi from a subway (including the entrances at 1st Ave).
Lex to 3rd is 0.10 mi, but then each block east from there is 0.15 mi.
According to Delorme's Street Atlas 9.0 the distances from Lex are as follows: 3rd - 495'; 2nd - 1190'; 1st - 1956' and E End 3406'. I've cross checked the distance measurment tool against the green highway markers and there is better than 0.1% agreement. The distance between streets is actually 262' (from official NYC highway maps).
I was including only the Upper East Side in my survey.
Not in the US environment. Makes a huge difference (which you ignore).
You are now wrapping yourself in the flag to deflect any criticism about the shortcomings of current NYCT operations. :=)
Just because methodologies works outside NYC or the US does not necessarily mean that they are not applicable here. It certainly should not preclude somebody from trying them, especially if they promise a 50% increase in service from current levels.
Then again, what should one expect from a an american mindset, that appears to equate conservation with treason. :=)
"Just because methodologies works outside NYC or the US does not necessarily mean that they are not applicable here."
True. But note that Americans are to a large degree the descendants of people who either couldn't get along with people in their home country, or were dissatified with their home environment. As a result, there is strong evidence that Americans are more resistant to conformity than others worldwide.
Add to this that New Yorkers are to a large degree Americans who came to NYC because they couldn't stand their home town or couldn't get along there.
On a tangential note, there is a proven far higher incidence of Attention Deficit Disorder in the US than France, thought to be for the reasons above.
As a result, there is strong evidence that Americans are more resistant to conformity than others worldwide.
I think that is largely a myth perpetrated by those who would have you belive that George Washington choped down his father's cherry tree. When he became the last premier of the Fourth Republic, DeGaulle was asked in a press conference about concerns that he might become a dictator. His reply was: how can one become a dictator in a country with a thousand different cheeses. On the opposite end of the gastronomic spectrum, Britain is noted for its toleration of oddballs and free thinkers.
On a tangential note, there is a proven far higher incidence of Attention Deficit Disorder in the US than France, thought to be for the reasons above.
I put more credence in a Twinkies diet. :=)
More evidence for the US being full of malcontents and troublemakers who don't want to listen to authority:
Why is the US the only major country that won't accept the metric system for general (non-industrial) use? Americans are too obstreporous to accept the govt telling them that it's good for them, in contrast to the Canadians who just grumbled and accepted it.
I'm used to the English system for certain measures and contexts, but I could certainly learn to get along on pure metric!
There is another interpretation.
The sheep have been conditioned into simply following for so long that the powers that be are afraid of awaking them. Changing something so basic might get some people thinking. Who knows what might result from such action.
After all, Gallileo was kept on the Index for over 300 years.
I recently went swimming at a new gym. The Russian lifeguard told me that the pool was 20 meters long. I said "how many feet is that"? He did not know. So here's a guy living in our country, talking to an American in a system he's not familiar with. Seems like he's the malcontent if you ask me.
Not malcontent. Just uninformed about the conversion.
You had the opportunity to learn the metric system in school. They do teach it.
"You are now wrapping yourself in the flag to deflect any criticism about the shortcomings of current NYCT operations. :=)"
No, I'm not. I'm pointing out to you that some of the solutions you seek involve methods which would not be legal here.
Would you advocate that thieves have their right hands chopped off? Experts in Saudi Arabia swear by it. If you refuse to consider doing that in the US, I can accuse you of "wrapping yourself in the flag" and being a conservative. :0)
I'm pointing out to you that some of the solutions you seek involve methods which would not be legal here.
The methods that I've proposed are to operate trains with uniform headways and to have them adhere to their schedules. Which aspect do you believe is not legal here?
Would you advocate that thieves have their right hands chopped off? Experts in Saudi Arabia swear by it. If you refuse to consider doing that in the US, I can accuse you of "wrapping yourself in the flag" and being a conservative. :0)
That reminds me of a story told me when I was in Tokyo on business. I regularly travelled from Otamachi to Nishidai on the Mita line to get to the site where I was working. I frequently looked out the rail fan window and took note of the operators' procedures. I was astonished that there appeared to be no dead man's switch on the controller and no trippers on the signals. I inquired about this and was told there there weren't any. I asked about the use of these safety items and the prevention of accidents. I was told there had been a minor rear end collision a few months earlier. The motorman of the following train committed suicide a couple of days after the accident. I have not advocated that this particular collision avoidance procedure be be tried by NYCT. I believe that I have evaluated which procedures are useful and legal before proposing their trial here.
I do think the Japanese T/O was being hard on himself, but it's proof that hara-kiri, unfortunately, persists.
"I believe that I have evaluated which procedures are useful and legal before proposing their trial here."
And I believe you have not. :0)
And I believe you have not. :0)
Other than a belief in NYCT or US infallibility what is the basis for your opinion?
"Other than a belief in NYCT or US infallibility what is the basis for your opinion?"
It's not infallibility, because we are clearly the most flawed society in the world, except for every other one. :0)
In one of your posts, you mentioned that precision of operation, down to the second, is vital for making the improvements you want.
Let's take one example of how this might not work well, except on a spreadsheet.
If we were talking about the IRT troop train, where the seargeant barks "Move it! Double time! You, over there, not fast enough. Drop and give me twenty!" and the troops live in fear of him (or every entering and debarking passenger is either a US Navy Seal or a member of Britain's 22nd Special Air Service Regiment), then a precision crew combined with these crack passengers would allow you to move trains without delay, ever. In Japan, the conductor is allowed to shove you into the car if you don't get on to his liking.
But in real life in the US, that doesn't work. Is that fallible? You bet. Want to change it?
I once rode an L train with a prince of a conductor, who did things like step out of his cab to assist an unsteady elderly woman, support her on his arm and gently escort her out of the subway car to the platform and point her toward the exit. The train was not crowded, and it was not rush hour. The train had a noticeably longer than average dwell time due to this event. I wrote a letter of commendation for this conductor. Perhaps you would have fired him instead (lack of precision!)
In one of your posts, you mentioned that precision of operation, down to the second, is vital for making the improvements you want.
Yes, and that was stated in comparison to current TA practice where published schedules are listed to the nearest minute. I've also shown how to determine how close to schedule trains must be in order to maintain certain headways without delays. These figures are: 15 seconds for 40 tph; 30 seconds for 30 tph; 45 seconds for 24 tph and 60 seconds for 20 tph operation. The formula is: (headway - 60)/2 seconds. As you can see, listed schedules with the precision in minutes will guarantee only 20 tph operation without delays.
If we were talking about the IRT troop train, where the seargeant barks "Move it! Double time! You, over there, not fast enough. Drop and give me twenty!" and the troops live in fear of him (or every entering and debarking passenger is either a US Navy Seal or a member of Britain's 22nd Special Air Service Regiment), then a precision crew combined with these crack passengers would allow you to move trains without delay, ever.
Have I ever suggested that platform conductors be equipped with fixed bayonets or something similar? That's strictly your interpretation of what it would take to get the TA to operate with more punctuality.
BTW, I don't have that much admiration for the military's ability to move men and material. Each year I assist in the operation of New York's Five Boro Bike Tour. It moves more than a divison's worth of people over 40 miles through NYC. It includes an amphibious landing. There is an operating schedule that is resolved down to the second. It is adhered to without resort to drawn revolvers or similar coersion techniques. It is simply a case of evaluating human nature and providing the means by which people acting like human beings will unwittingly maintain an orderly and punctual flow. NYC's Finest prefer it that way too.
In Japan, the conductor is allowed to shove you into the car if you don't get on to his liking.
Have you ever ridden the Tokyo subway or commuter trains during morning rush hour or are you simply letting your imagination take hold?
I once rode an L train with a prince of a conductor, who did things like step out of his cab to assist an unsteady elderly woman, support her on his arm and gently escort her out of the subway car to the platform and point her toward the exit. The train was not crowded, and it was not rush hour. The train had a noticeably longer than average dwell time due to this event. I wrote a letter of commendation for this conductor. Perhaps you would have fired him instead (lack of precision!)
Such acts of common decency were not uncommon when the AB's ruled the BMT. It was easy because the conductor could assist passengers without delaying the train. I would (and have) criticized the car designers for coming up with designs that prevented such acts of courtesy from happening without delaying hundreds of other passengers.
But all this statistical mumbo-jumbo that you try to apply to the performance of the NYC Subway, is more applicable to a production line, rather than the 4, 5, and 6 lines.
The same observation was made when Eli Whitney produced guns with interchangeable parts and Henry Ford developed an assembly line for automobile manufacture.
There are far too many variables to be considered that your statistical equations can't calculate.
I cannot compare myself with Whitney or Ford because this methodology has already been successfully applied to real world subway service.
NYCT will never discover that such methods can work here, if they don't try to apply them.
"I cannot compare myself with Whitney or Ford because this methodology has already been successfully applied to real world subway service. "
Potentially quite misleading since safety and liability issues, for one thing, are much different in the places you often refer to than in the US. For another, certain practices (such as the Tokyo "pusher") would be illegal here.
You completely ignore that, of course.
For another, certain practices (such as the Tokyo "pusher") would be illegal here.
The Tokyo system does not operate at 40+ tph. That's why they need pushers. :-)
I heard that pushers in Tokyo are not needed because of the need to stuff people into the trains, but rather because Japanese people are too timid to push themselves insto the train.
I don't think New Yorkers have problems with pushing themselves into trains.
You missed my point.
My point was that practices in other countries can be employed that would not be acceptable or legal in the US.
I'm still lost. You're comparing the movement of people on subway trains, to an automobile production line. That's what does not make sense to me. But I enjoy reading your observations, and hope to read the results of more of your studies.
Here are some measurements from the back of the SB 4/5 platform at 14th instead of the front, taken toward the end of this AM’s rush hour (8:46 through 8:53). In each case there was a train ready north of 14th waiting to enter the station once the previous train departed. There were no unusual circumstances, and the platforms were only moderately crowded, as would be expected toward the tail end of rush hour.
Time from train starting to move until next train opens its doors: 99, 98, 85 seconds.
Time from train opening its doors to same train starting to move out of the station: 45, 53, 35 seconds.
Total time between trains departing station: 144, 151, 120 seconds.
Mean time between departures: 138.33 seconds, or 26 tph.
It seems like there was one “cowboy train” that was able to get in and out a lot quicker than the others. Not clear why its C/R could get the doors shut 24 to 31 seconds faster, since I was all the way at the back. Also not clear why that T/O got into the station 13 seconds quicker than the two previous T/Os.
Surprisingly (to me at least), the big delay of the gap fillers is on leaving, not arriving. It only took 5-6 seconds for the doors to open after the train stopped. But it took 15-16 seconds for the train to move a single car length once it started moving – the timer forces the T/O to go slow until the fillers have fully receded.
Bravo, somebody is actully taking a stop watch and started measuring the times.
I have some questions about your technique.
In each case there was a train ready north of 14th waiting to enter the station once the previous train departed.
Was the following train stopped at a red signal or was it just visible down the moving towards the station. I know there isn't a wall on the north side of the downtown platform and that you can see for quite a distance down the tunnel.
One reason for my measuring the deceleration time from the time the front of the train passed a mark at the north end of the downtown platform, until it opened its doors was to eliminate any variability of how the trains were separated when they left Grand Central. My readings showed that the minimum time between the leader started to leave the station until the follower opened its doors was 80.2 seconds with a standard deviation of 2.4 seconds. The difference between your readings of 99, 98 and 85 seconds and my minimum interval could be explained two very different ways. If the follower were too close when it left Grand Central it would encounter yellow or red aspects. This would cause its approach speed to be slower than had it left at its proper time. The second explanation is the reverse. The train left behind its proper time and you are counting additional approach time in your Union Sq measurements.
Time from train opening its doors to same train starting to move out of the station: 45, 53, 35 seconds.
This is the biggest difference. I've found one really must observe the conductor to account for the dwell time figures. Were some conductors timid and did they hold doors open longer than necessary, possibly doing the open/close/open/close scenerio? Were there holding lights? Were the doors held open because there was a red aspect ahead?
But it took 15-16 seconds for the train to move a single car length once it started moving – the timer forces the T/O to go slow until the fillers have fully receded.
My method for this measurement was to measure the time from when the T/O released the brakes until the gap filler signal cleared. I found that many T/O's would continue to coast until they were well past the gap filler signal. I've been told they do this because there is a grade timer before Astor Pl and they prefer to approach it slowly rather than brake when they get there. My readings were about half of what your reported. Again, I was trying to isolate opeator variablity from my measurements in determining the gap filler actuation times.
It only took 5-6 seconds for the doors to open after the train stopped.
You have to compare this to the scenerio at a station without gap fillers. The conductor may spend 2-3 seconds lowering the window and practicing the pointing ritual before the doors open. That would imply that the moving platforms took only 2-3 seconds. I found it difficult to measure the moving platform movement directly. I felt that human reaction time made my timings inaccurate with such a short interval.
It seems like there was one “cowboy train” that was able to get in and out a lot quicker than the others. Not clear why its C/R could get the doors shut 24 to 31 seconds faster, since I was all the way at the back. Also not clear why that T/O got into the station 13 seconds quicker than the two previous T/Os.
The variability among operators is enough to throw a schedule off without any help from the passengers. That is why it is vital to provide a means for getting operations back to schedule at each station by alerting personnel how they are doing.
"The variability among operators is enough to throw a schedule off without any help from the passengers. That is why it is vital to provide a means for getting operations back to schedule at each station by alerting personnel how they are doing."
Now you've said something that makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting to hear from T/O's and supervisors what kind of feedback they get now, and how/if/how often they are debriefed at the end of a working shift.
Feedback on what?? There really is no pressure on the schedule anymore. They want T/O's and C/R's to slow down because there where a lot of door incidents, Signal and station overruns. On the #1 Line where I worked last I was told not to worry about the schedule operate strictly by school car instructions don't try to make up time.
So what you're essentially saying is the T/O's, as a whole, don't operate the trains as skillfully as they could.
This is not an indictment in any way of T/O's. It does mean that some further operating improvement is possible. But it's partly up to the rank and file to make it happen.
I'm not saying that what I think its what the higher up must think. At the time they where telling us to slow down when we had a whole bunch of classes on new C/R's and T/O's. We had some T/O's off the street running out of stations and hitting signals so instead of singleing them out they just told everyone to be careful.
Most T/O's are skillful and know how to do thier jobs. Most do with the help of the C/R keep thier trains on time as long as they can safely do so. Most make up loss time if it can be done safely. Most do know their road they know where to speed and where to slow down.
My train is mostly on time if I'm late there is a reason.
I'm not trying to indict operating personnel either individually or as a group. My interest is in operating procedures and their implemenatation and how they might be changed to improve service levels, without diminishing safety.
My train is mostly on time if I'm late...
What criterion is used to determine if the train is late, on time or early?
Most T/O's are skillful and know how to do thier jobs. Most do with the help of the C/R keep thier trains on time as long as they can safely do so.
How do operating personnel determine that their train is on time, early or late during a run? Both theoretically and practically.
Most make up loss time if it can be done safely
What techniques are used to make up lost time and how does such operation differ from when operating personnel do not have to make up lost time?
What criterion is used to determine if the train is late, on time or early?
The timetable. Each run has a scheduled arrival time at the terminal. Early trains arrive before the scheduled time, on time trains arive no more than 4m59s after the scheduled time, and late trains are all the rest.
How do operating personnel determine that their train is on time, early or late during a run? Both theoretically and practically.
Theoretically, all crews know their departure time, arrival time and time at gap stations and can compare their actual time at these locations with the scheduled time by using their watch, which is synced with TA time.
Practically, I can't speak for anyone but me. I use the theoretical method above. Providing that there are no major problems on the road ahead of me (stalled train, BIE, 12-9, track work, etc), I am usually at my time points at the scheduled time, or within a minute of said time (except, for some unknown reason, on Mondays returning from Astoria with an N, when I show up at DeKalb somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes early, and get held there as a result).
What techniques are used to make up lost time and how does such operation differ from when operating personnel do not have to make up lost time?
The most common ways are either a) the C/R closes down faster at less crowded stations, cutting into the minimum 10 second 'doors fully open' rule, or b) the T/O speeds, breaking the 'obey all posted speed restrictions' rule. There is no legitimate way of making up time that I know - most seem to involve breaking rules.
None and none.
Then Stephen has a point. The TA is missing an opportunity.
"Was the following train stopped at a red signal or was it just visible down the moving towards the station."
By the time the train was leaving the station, the following train was stopped or crawling extremely slowly. I obviously can't know for sure if it had a red signal, but it seems highly likely.
"My readings showed that the minimum time between the leader started to leave the station until the follower opened its doors was 80.2 seconds with a standard deviation of 2.4 seconds."
I thought your numbers were theoretical ones based on the way the signals are laid out. I'm telling you that the actual observations were 99, 98, and 85. I think unless a T/O times everything just right (or maybe accelerates and decelerates like a real cowboy), your optimal times are just not possible.
"If the follower were too close when it left Grand Central it would encounter yellow or red aspects."
Haven't I explained this? The follower could be 5 minutes behind and it would still catch up to the queue by 23rd Street and get yellow or red signals there. IT DOESN'T MATTER what the spacing is at 42nd because they all queue up at 23rd anyway.
"I've found one really must observe the conductor to account for the dwell time figures."
I should add that especially with the 53 seconds, the rear doors closed and then nothing happened for a long time. My guess is someone was holding the front doors, or else a stream of people had just come in from the BMT. I was too far back to see. Holding lights or a red signal up front are extremely unlikely. There was NO congestion south of 14th (after timing these trains I took a train to BB and it ran fine).
I see 3 obstacles to better tph performance. None are remediable without technology or legal changes. The spacing at GCT is not relevant for the reasons mentioned above.
- It takes 15 seconds for the train to move the first car length. This is not true in other stations and is due to the gap fillers retracting very slowly.
- Dwell time is very variable and not under the full control of the C/R.
- The way the signals are set up it just takes a LONG time for the next train to get to the station after the current one starts to pull out. Without closer spacing (pre-litigation work rules, or new signaling system), you can't get more tph.
I thought your numbers were theoretical ones based on the way the signals are laid out.
No, I went down to Union Square and took readings on 27 Oct 2001 and 29 Oct 2001. My interest was to find out how soon after the doors close, a new train can enter a station and how long it takes a train to enter a station. I took 10 readings for each measurement. The measurement for how long it takes before a train can enter a station had an average of 49.13 seconds with a standard deviation of 1.98 seconds. The range was 47 to 54 seconds. By contrast the theoretical value would assume that the train had to travel 1500 feet to be clear of the signal block south of Union Sq. This would come to 40.8 seconds, assuming a top spped of 30 mph and an acceleration rate of 2 mph/sec. I explain the descrepency by the gap filler, signal latency and deviation from the acceleration profile. I estimated the gap filler time by using the timing method described in my previous post. Again the this time interval ended when the signal in the middle of the platform turned yellow. The signal just north of the station would have been yellow for some time. This is the LONG time that prevents a train from entering the station: 49 seconds. Most of the other stations are closer to the theoretical value for this time.
However, there is a technique used at some other stations along the Lex, to reduce this figure. The signal system is requiring 1500 feet of clear track before permitting a train to enter Union Sq. Only 1000 feet are really required. As Mr. Jeff H suggested some time ago, the first block on leaving the station could be divided into two blocks. That would reduce the 49 seconds down to 38 seconds.
I also measured the time it took a train to stop, once it entered the station in a similar manner. I made sure that for all these measurements that the middle signal had a yellow aspect and therefore the signal just before the station entrance had a green aspect. The average for 10 such readings was 31.07 seconds with a standard deviation of 1.43 seconds and range of 27 to 37 seconds. Assuming a deceleration rate of 2.5 mph/sec and an approach speed of 30 mph, the theoretical time would have been 19 seconds. I ascribe the grade timers before Union Sq for lowering the approach speed for the principal reason for the descrpency. However, I was using the measured data to try to equate your readings with mine.
If the trains are backed up, for whatever reason, then they will enter Union Sq at a lower speed. The lower speed will means that they will take longer to stop. This is the reason for the difference between your measurments and my equivalent.
Haven't I explained this? The follower could be 5 minutes behind and it would still catch up to the queue by 23rd Street and get yellow or red signals there. IT DOESN'T MATTER what the spacing is at 42nd because they all queue up at 23rd anyway.
You really do not know, unless you measure the departure times at Grand Central and track the trains down for the entire rush hour. That's the only way to be sure. I can generate the same behavior by having trains leave early from Grand Central.
I should add that especially with the 53 seconds, the rear doors closed and then nothing happened for a long time. My guess is someone was holding the front doors, or else a stream of people had just come in from the BMT. I was too far back to see. Holding lights or a red signal up front are extremely unlikely. There was NO congestion south of 14th (after timing these trains I took a train to BB and it ran fine).
Again, supposition. I've given up guessing a C/R's motivitation without being close by him.
- It takes 15 seconds for the train to move the first car length. This is not true in other stations and is due to the gap fillers retracting very slowly.
You must admit that your measurement technique might include delays that are the result of operator performance as well as that caused by retracting the gap fillers. My technique tries to isolate operator waste from retraction time.
I see 3 obstacles to better tph performance. None are remediable without technology or legal changes
I did pull 11 seconds out of the hat by shortening the block just south of Union Sq.
something does not sound right here and instead of asking lots of questions back and forth, I'd better drop it in specifics. Truth is I used to get off mostly at 42nd Street and my knowledge of that station is sketchy and I never operated the piece.
BUT You legitmatley point out that under well run condtions there is enough fudge time to operate MANY more TPH (I'll give in to a few) and that the TA used to run more TPH. The other side (besides the TA being cheap) is that old rules gave the TO and CR much more fudge time than current crews have and that was a tremendous help.
Back in the day I would be 10 feet from C when the train was at Union, now I am sitting at signal D or E. There are also some ST issues that because of kooky TSS' almost insure slower operation even when faster is allowed. There are lots of litle things they do like the extra signal blocks on interlockings at terminals and such that screw up the transit formulas.
"Back in the day I would be 10 feet from C when the train was at Union, now I am sitting at signal D or E. There are also some ST issues that because of kooky TSS' almost insure slower operation even when faster is allowed. There are lots of litle things they do like the extra signal blocks on interlockings at terminals and such that screw up the transit formulas. "
Among the possibilities might be TA's management's distrust of a certain percentage of T/O's and therefore demanding extra safety margins. If 90% of crews can handle running their trains close together and 10% cause a problem, management will take steps that deal with the 10% and prevent a cracker-jack crew from operating at 100% of skill potential.
It would be interesting to hear operator, supervisor and manager takes on this issue.
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TWO motormen who screwed up in the past ten years are responsible for ALL the redesigns that have resulted in pokey trains. Not even 10% ... TWO PEOPLE ...
"TWO motormen who screwed up in the past ten years are responsible for ALL the redesigns that have resulted in pokey trains. Not even 10% ... TWO PEOPLE ... "
And what about close calls?
For every airliner that crashes due to pilot error, you know there are going to be a few more examples, not as well known, or even reported in the press, of pilots who made a mistake but escaped a fatal consequence (the airplane was on a collision course but evaded in time; the pilot didn't handle wake turbulence properly but the airplane recovered anyway and the flight continued with no injuries; the pilot landed hard on the runway because his glideslope was too steep but the gear held up anyway and only two tires blew out etc.).
So how many "close calls" which hurt no one has the TA recorded in ten years?
A few TSS' applying ST the wrong way does not help.
BTW I think the Willy B resulted in sweeter J jobs initially (so they could nap?) and then a few of them became such hell jobs that if you pick one up from an early board report you are halfway there to another collision.
Yep, nothing like slow orders to solve every problem. Been an interesting week and change I've just been through - got to run some Arnine again and found out that I WASN'T as wimpy in the cab as I thought I was, had a bunch of old timers come and visit up here and we talked a LOT about how things were in our day. I was always lucky, I was a night person and had no problem with early reports and long hauls, but it would be absolute HELL on "morning people."
But yeah, in the old days, we closed up, we'd follow our leader a few feet behind on station time, ready to serve up train chow at a secon'd notice. And I realized LAST weekend *WHY* we could do it and why you *CAN'T* today ... on an Arnine, you've got your air back after a dump in about ten seconds or less and can roll again.
What are the toasters on wheels like after a penalty app? Does it take almost a minute or more before you can roll again now? That'd sure be a factor in backing off trains from one another along with "do we TRUST these guys and gals to key by? Nah." So *MANY* things have changed, and for the worse, it's a miracle the railroad doesn't just roll over and die EVERY day ...
The penalty is 17 seconds which must seem like an eternity if you did something wrong. I think if you can backfeed which you can't do on lots of equipment now, it might be faster.
I was told 17 seconds because that made it impossible not to stop fully before you recharged and not because of the valves train to train.
Yeah, that'd make sense then (read your second message before coming back and posting this) ... somewhere (musta been here) that there was a lockout of a minute or two to ENSURE you're late if you BIE'd and strangely some of the BVE simulator Train.DAT files (which contains technical numbers to make the trains behave as close to real as possible) have penalties that can go five minutes before you can release, thus I tended to believe it. 17 seconds is pretty fair and more logical to me. Thanks for the number.
That ain't so bad. Still, key-bys are a no-no these days whereas back in MY day, you didn't have to call in for permission in MOST places. Hell, even at an "X" (absolute) a fast call would get you past stuck homeballs which is I'm sure today, verboten without someone on the ground with a flashlight. But there were so MANY things we used to do to tighten up the railroad that'd get you 30 days or terminated in a flash today and THAT is why the railroad is perceived to be so slow. Not to mention of course all sorts of new signals, blind trips and other "shut her downs" along the wayside. I'd go NUTS if I was on the railroad these days. :)
And it would be cheaper than building a new line.
That is why I still think that in their hearts they don't want it. How much more to run and a maintain a SAS Vs. improving existing service by 15-20%. The only savings would be in making a loop run at night so that track work would be faster.
"- As far as my suggestion to make 68th an express stop being a "waste of money" in your opinion. Well, you may be right. Then I say make 77th an express stop. Both stations are extremely busy, and are usually the cause for a delay on s/b #6 trains. Making either station an express stop would help things on the east side. "
It would slow down express service unnecessarily with only marginal benefit (there are many more and bigger causes for delays than overcrowding at 77th Street) and do nothing for the East Side, many of whom would still live several blocks from the subway.
You offer no viable alternatives to compensate for cancelling Second Av.
I'm not faqmiliar with M riding patterns, so I'll leave that to others to critique.
Lastly, the solution to the 7 is to increase the frequency of local trains, not cut back on express trains.
I appreciate and respect your TA employee experience, but your proposals go directly against what your customers clearly need and want and have said they want.
"- As far as my suggestion to make 68th an express stop being a "waste of money" in your opinion. Well, you may be right. Then I say make 77th an express stop. Both stations are extremely busy, and are usually the cause for a delay on s/b #6 trains. Making either station an express stop would help things on the east side."
Ok, how would this help things on the east side??? So if express stations were built at 68 &/or 77, what makes you think this would relieve congestion. This would just cause delays for the 4/5 AND the 6. Its like saying that a express station should be built at 51 St also.
"- And as far as the 2nd ave project goes, I can honestly say it's a waste of money. Should the TA spend hundreds of millions on a new line when increasing the number of TPH may be just as effective in helping the Lexington line? The 2nd avenue line may end up being, as one Subtalker so eloquently put it, "a multi-billion dollar east side version of the C line"."
The 2 Av subway is just what the east side needs. I understand that because it took so long to build, you think it will be useless. Well, it not so and you can't increase the # of trains on the Lex because it's already past capacity. If you think expansion is a waste of money, then you have a problem.
it's a good point, concerning the 7 in the evening. especially at winter. QP upper level is a windy, often freezing place to have to wait for a train - and NONE of the 7s seem to EVER be properly marked for express or local, so EVERYONE, even people who usually would not, hold doors and ask where the train is going. Why can't they get the signs proper on that line like they did in the old days? Used to be that it was very, very obvious what was express and what is not. Now, there is litterly no way to tell unless it is announced, which is a whole other bad joke not worth getting into.
I 'm just glad i rarely take that s*it excuse of a line.
As for 2nd av, anyone against it isn't worth a reply detailing why they need their head examined.
The 2nd avenue line may end up being, as one Subtalker so eloquently put it, "a multi-billion dollar east side version of the C line".
I seriously doubt that this would happen. But as a 'local only' line, it will definitely be less used than if it had express service. I still believe that the line needs to be a four track line, from 125th to wherever they make the southern terminus.
Wish we had the money to do it.
I don't see the need for express service. Not to mention that most of the stops would have to be express anyway. 42, 34 and 23 (Hospitals), 50ties,14 and Houston (Transfer).
Arti
>>> - In response to my suggestion that the M be reduced to midday shuttle service, you say "It'll piss people off". I say, "Yes, all 40 of them". That's about how many people are on any s/b M train arriving at Myrtle/Bwy during middays.<<<
Perhaps if the M was to be rerouted into Midtown, it might have higher ridership during middays, possibly evenings and weekends as well. I think that would be a lot better than turning the midday M into a shuttle.
Running the M as a shuttle during the middays is VERY bad for several reasons I won't get into.Abandon the 2nd Av. subway project!? Are you absoultely insane or what!? How the hell is that a waste of money!? Have you SEEN how damn crowded the Lex. Av. line is during rush hours?
That 2nd Av. subway is needed and needed BADLY! The 6 train the way it runs now is good enough.There's no need for extra service.And finally,what difference does it make whether the last 7-Flushing Exp. leaves at 8:30 or 10PM?
Have I seen how crowded Lexington Ave is? Sweatheart, I've been riding that corridor my whole life. Now, I operate trains on that same corridor. And I can honestly say, the 2nd Av. line is a waste of money.
Most of the overcrowding and delays are caused by stupidity and sloth, rather than a lack of space on trains, and I can prove it to anyone who would like to see firsthand, as opposed to sitting back and disputing this on a message board.
Man.You need to your head examined cause you are so DEAD WRONG!
Examining my head will do little to help the situation on Lexington Ave. Examining the actual situation on Lexington Ave will. So what insightful observations have you made? Your input is greatly appreciated.
Yeah, maybe you guys who work the Lex every day might learn something. :)
-First and foremost, get the 2nd Avenue Subway groundbreaking done by 2004, and complete the project in time for the 2012 Summer Olympics. 2 tracks/4 tracks...doesn't make much difference to me, as long as the main stops are parallel to the Lexington Avenue Express stops (making this route a "semi-express").
-Start re-designing the Cortlandt (1/9) subway station with the Lower Manhattan Redevelopment Commission, and insist that the tunnels DO NOT need re-routing around ground zero.
-Replace roll signs with LED signs and also add automated announcements to R62, R62A, and possibly the R68 subway cars.
-If feasible, add 4th track to #7 line, and extend it to the west side as planned. With 4 tracks, the (7) runs local at all times, and the (11) runs express at all times in both directions, replacing the <7> in peak direction only.
-Do something to improve service for G line riders, including adding cars, and possibly re-routing V line so the G can go to at least Queens Plaza (and maybe even Forest Hills) at all times.
-Nick
if i had the power,well here what i would do:
use the remaning redbirds for passenger service for one more year,then
put them as work cars.(don,t like the idea of dumping them in the oecan).
spred out the R42 and put them on the C,Q,A and N and put the R32 on
the J and M lines.
rebuild all the R44,R46,R68 andR68A,R142,R142A,R143with railfan windows(one car at a time)
and hold yearly tours of abandoned stations.
annnnd fix the R110A/R110B and put them back in service on the 1 and A
line.
comments anyone?
Well, if *I* had the power, then I could plug in the fridge. :)
(don't mind me, one of those 28 hour days and I go sleepies finally)
If had the power I do many many things.
1. Build the 2nd Avenue Subway with extensions into the bronx along 3rd avenue.
2. Extend the Archer Avenue Subway to atleast Rosedale
3. Extend the 7 train to Bay Side Queens via subway then el after murray hill. Extend 7 the other way to Javits Center
4. N/W extension to LGA
5. Fix the Manhattan Bridge completely ASAP.
6. Create a Cross Bronx Subway line.
7. Convert the LIRR Montauk line into a subway line.
8. Build a tunnel from staten island to Brooklyn for an extension of R or a new train.
9. Restore North Shore SIRT service tieing it into the subway system.
10. Mothball the best redbirds for museum trips
11. Install LCD destination signs on R62s R68s
12. Install Roll signs on the front of the R143 ... im sorry those LED front red signs got to go.
13. Order more of the R110B prototype they were the nicest looking trains ive ever seen.
14. Order more 75 foot cars for the B division. For eastern divison 67 footers.
15. Extend the L to besonhurst.
16. Conduct yearly tours of abondoned areas.
17. Retrofit all non railfan window equipment to having one. To hell with transverse cabs.
18. Make a railfan seat.
19. Have the R32 run untill 2015.
20. Make the R142/R143 autoannoucements systems more flexiable and easier to update.
lol ill stop now ill can continue to go on and on but dont feel like it.
Any comments?
Adam
[The fare increase sparked protests and prompted a coalition of civil rights, environmental, disabled, and labor groups to file a discrimination complaint with the Federal Transit Administration.]
And, as we all remember from the Los Angeles case (Bus Riders Council vs. LACMTA), the plaintiffs won't even have to prove discriminatory intent by MARTA. The Los Angeles judge ruled that proof of a discriminatory EFFECT is sufficient, and that intent can be imputed from the effect.
A verdict has already been made, I posted about it here
[GRTA has the power and mandate to bring some sense to the region's chaotic public transit situation. GRTA and the state need to act. GRTA has facilitated suburban Gwinnett and Clayton counties bus systems to come on line at the same time MARTA, the region's most mature and far-reaching system, has been allowed to falter.]
Yes, but once MARTA has failed, GRTA and the State can come in and "rescue" it, thus allowing some governor to be re-elected.
NY Times article at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/16/national/16IMMI.html
There is no way to get out of a covered hopper unless the hopper gate is open on the bottom or a ladder is lowered from the hatch.
I am not sure if it is really a tragity. I would call it justice for induhviduals breaking US Immigration Law. People who would do something so incredibly stupid are not the kind of people want residing in our country. We have more than enough idiots already.
You're right!
In fact, we should post a warning on all entry visas:
"Overstaying your visit in the US is illegal. If you do not leave by the date stamped in your passport, we will not guarantee your safety in the US. There is a possibility of death, and we will not be held responsible."
-Jersey Mike, Deputy Commisar of Immigration
Hey, I'm as fascist as the next conservative when it comes to enforcing immigration laws, but it's still a tragedy. People died. Yes, they took quite a risk, but that doesn't make their deaths any less worthy of sorrow.
What a cold and callous stament. Just what I've come to expect from our very own JERKY MIKE.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>We have more than enough idiots already<<<
Like YOU.
Peace,
ANDEE
What a terrible way to die. It seems like the people who got into the hopper car didn't realize that once you're inside the car, it is nearly impossible to get out. If the car is locked up, you cannot get out.
#3 West End Jeff
Four years and ten months after the first car arrived on MBTA property... they're still trying.
The story from The Boston Globe.
And you thought getting the R-142/As accepted took a long time!
Pardon me if I don't hold my breath waiting.
Looks like you blue that one!
: ) Elias
If we EVER get low-floors in Philly, I pray that 1.) Kawasaki gets the contract, 2.)if not Kawasaki, anyone else but Breda. Mad problems with MUNI's cars and MBTA's Type 8s says a lot...
Kinki-Sharyo also makes good light rail cars. -Nick
Which NYC lightweight passenger cars had the black roof?
Certain trains? Certain types of Car? Certain vintages?
I'm Axing the question since there are models available now, some with the black roof and some without.
Thanks,
Dave
It seems the Empire State Express used Budd cars with black roof, but I have to check when I get home (BTW, the Empire State Express started on Dec 7, 1941 and was overshawdow by events in Hawaii).
<< Which NYC lightweight passenger cars had the black roof? >>
Pullman Standard coaches 2600 - 2649
Various sleepers
Diners looked like they had black roofs but they were a dark gray.
First of all, by South Brooklyn, I'm referring to the Cobble Hill / Carrol Gardens / Gowanus area. Obvisouly, much of Brooklyn is South of "South Brooklyn," but it gets its name from the early EARLY days of the Dutch colony with a name similar in pronounciation to "Brooklyn."
I am looking for apartments in the area, as I am graduating from NYU Film school this december. And so I've visited two subway stations with some frequency in the past few weeks. They are the Bergen and Carroll Street stations, beneath Smith St, serviced by the F and G lines, right before they emerge from underground on their way to the Smith-9th St. Station, high above the Gowanus.
I noticed at Carroll St, that 4 tracks enter the underground station at the south end, from the elevated structure over the Gowanus. But, immediately upon entering the station, the middle express tracks continue descending to a lower level. I thought, "Where are these tracks going?" Certainly they are currently unused for revenue service, but what were they built for?
Bergen St., on the other hand, looks like a fairly standard two-track station. Where did the express tracks go?
I continued my research on NYCSUBWAY.org. There (here) I found track maps indicating a two-track SUPER-express that goes from an unused lower-level station at Bergen St., pops up to local-track level at Carroll St., continues over the elevated structure over the Gowanus, descends into the underground with the local tracks and has an express platform configuration at the 7th avenue station. Then, it detatches from the local tracks, and makes a direct route towards the Fort Hamilton Parkway station, skipping the slightly out-of-the-way 15th St./Prospect Park station. The express tracks then continue directly under the local tracks, bypassing the Fort Hamilton Parkway station, re-emerging between the local tracks just before the express platforms at Church Avenue. To see a track map of this, this link:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklyn2.gif
This is quite unusual! Typical for the IND, though, it looks like a mini-Queens-Blvd. super express.
They seemed to have gone quite out of their way to create a fully-functional express line down there, and the irony is that it stands completely unused.
So, I looked more closely at the track maps, to discover something even more unusual.... Everything about this unused express seems kosher, until one inspects the interchange between this 4-track construction, just north of Bergen St., and the way it ties in to the 2-track Fulton (A,C) line, as it approaches the triangular interchange with the 4-track Jay St. Station and the 6-track Hoyt-Schermerhorn Station.
One would think that the IND, who worked so hard to get express service to "South Brooklyn" would maintain seperate tracks for express and local service upon entrance into Manhattan. But, as the track maps show,
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigbklynhts.gif
The express tracks just merge into the local, just north of Bergen St., and the combined express and local 2-track service pulls into Jay St. The Fulton St. (A,C) service intrudes upon the 4-track system, taking up two dedicated tracks at Jay St., to accomplish the cross-platform tranfer.
I'm not complaining about the cross-platform transfer. It's wonderful. But it doesn't seem like it would have been built this way. That's like having the Manhattan-bound E and F trains run super-express on Queens Blvd. only to have them merge with the local tracks right before Queens Plaza.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigqueens1.gif
Further research brings me to the IND history pages on this site. Here is a useful excerpt:
"In 1933, the Independent would also see extensions into the Bronx (205th St. and Bainbridge Avenue) and Brooklyn (Nassau Avenue as well as Church Avenue & McDonald Avenue). Smith / 9th Streets in Brooklyn would become the subway's highest station, at 87.5 feet from street level. On February 1st, 1933, the Independent terminated at Jay Street, Brooklyn. On March 20th, this line was extended to Bergen St. On July 1st, the Concourse Line opened from 145th St. to 205th St. After traveling north on the Grand Concourse, it turned east because plans saw this line extended to Gun Hill Road. On August 18th, the Queens Blvd line opened as well as the Crosstown line to Nassau Avenue. Finally, on October 7th, the South Brooklyn Line (also known as the Smith St Line) opened as far south as Church Avenue."
Within one year, the IND's 8th ave trunk line was extended through the whole of the "South Brooklyn" line to Church Avenue, with no mention of the Fulton Line. Hmmmmm. So, perhaps, in the original construction, there was no connection to Fulton, and the Express station at Jay St. was a standard express-local configuration serving the 4 South Brooklyn tracks?
This was 1933. The very next paraghraph from the same web page describes the expansions that took place in 1936:
"Because of financial troubles, which became political troubles, there was no further Independent expansion in 1934 and 1935. Federal funding was finally obtained and construction resumed. On January 1st, 1936, the subway along Houston and Essex Streets (connecting West 4th St with Jay Street) opened. On April 9th, the Fulton Street line opened from Jay Street to Rockaway Avenue. At Nostrand Avenue and Fulton St, provisions were made for a connection to the proposed Bedford Ave line. At Utica Avenue, provisions were made for a transfer to the proposed Utica Ave line. The Queens Blvd Line was extended to Union Turnpike on December 30th, 1936, and to 169th St. - Jamaica on April 24th, 1937. The Brooklyn Queens Crosstown line was extended to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets on July 1st, 1937."
So in one foul swoop, the whole of the Fulton St. line appeared on the subway map and was neatly tied into two of the tracks servicing Jay St. Hmmmm. And it was only 3 years later. And it would have been sooner if not for budget problems. And there doesn't seem to be 4 tracks between Bergen St. and Jay St. directly. If the Fulton line was tied into the South Brooklyn line as an afterthought, wouldn't there be some evidence of four tracks going directly from Bergen to Jay? And wouldn't that evidence take the form of two abandoned tracks today?
So.... in the final analysis... it seems that the IND planned well ahead of itself, and it planned on having 8 tracks merge into 4 from the get-go. 4-tracks from the local and express Fulton St. line, and 4-tracks from the local and express South Brooklyn line, all merging into a standard 4-track express and local station beneath Jay St. Why would they create such a horrible merge? They were in the business of OVER building, not UNDER building. I'm still not satisfied.
So, the search is on for explanations to explain how they might have originally intended that junction to be built. The first major clue seems to come from the existence of the Abandoned Court St. terminal station. It feeds directly and solely from the local Fulton St. tracks. This would alleviate half of our mystery, if the Fulton St. local was desingned to terminate at Court St., and if ONLY the express tracks were intended to continue on to Manhattan.
And the next sentence of the same web site I'm quoting reads:
"On May 26th, 1937, the Board of Transportation announced that the Court Street Shuttle would be closed (but it was not actually closed until June 1st, 1946)."
Was it always a shuttle? Or was it ever part of the Fulton local? The answer to this would serve as a major clue to solving this increasingly complicated mystery. If it was always a shuttle, then perhaps I'm on the wrong "track," as it were.
Continuing on in the text of this history of the IND... it gets to the proposed expansions of 1940. Some of them are the following:
"For Manhattan, the Second Avenue Subway was still on the drawing board, having a northern terminal at Harding Ave in the Bronx, and connecting into the IND Court Street shuttle in Brooklyn. The 6th Ave line would get express service between West 4th St and 34th Street and an extension to 145th Street via Central Park and Morningside Drive. The BMT subway at 57th St / 7th Ave would tunnel under Central Park to 72nd St, then turn east into Queens via the Horace Harding Expressway (this is part of today's Long Island Expressway) and terminate at Marathon Parkway. Finally, the local tracks of the 8th Avenue subway would be extended crosstown via Worth St to the Bowery and then to Driggs Avenue in Brooklyn. The South 4th Street junction, partially built, could live again."
What is important here is that the Court St. terminal is being looked at much like 21st St. Queensbridge or 57th/7av once were... as a terminal that was placed originally to provide iterim service until future expansion could take place. If court St. were connected through to its own tunnel to Manhattan, it would have explained, again, half of the mystery. 8 tracks would have become 6. 4 from Fulton and 4 from Sound Brooklyn would have become 4 to Jay St. and 2 to the Court St. tubes. That is still leaving a merge in place.
This may all be solved simply by giving in to the conclusion that the South Brooklyn express tracks were NEVER used. Thus, it's not REALLY an 8-track merge, it's only 6 tracks in and 6 tracks out, and there's no merge. Evidence to support this is found in two places.
1) The earliest IND map I can find makes no indication of express service to Chuch Av along South Brooklyn tracks:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/indwfmap.jpg
2) A description of the lower level station itself at Bergen St., according to NYCSubway.org:
"Bergen Street. Two levels, two tracks and two side platforms on each level. The lower level is abandoned, and the express tracks from here to Church Ave. are unused. Recently renovated, the tile here is unusual - the border has the lighter color. This border is a very light green, and the center is an equally dark shade of green. There is no crossover or crossunder. There is also dark green lower tile and splashes of light-green design interspersed at intervals. A look at the tracks reveals the ceiling of the lower level platform. The lower platform can be accessed via sets of double stainless steel doors which when open reveal the stairs to the lower level. The lower level has no tile on the wall, just unpainted concrete and old lights."
NO TILES? NO EXPRESS SERVICE ON THE MAP? It looks like these tracks are totally unused for revenue service! (At Smith-9th st. they are used to turn the G trains, but that doesn't really count for much in the context of this mystery.)
So.... the final questions remain:
1) What was the original configuration and intention of the South Brooklyn line into Jay St.?
2) Were there any express trains on South Brooklyn tracks, and what were they called?
3) If there were to be a use for the South Brooklyn express tracks today, what could they be used for? What would the service be called?
That's it. Good luck. I hope you've enjoyed this "dig" of a part of the subway system that doesn't seem to ever get much attention.
-Andrew Merelis
1) What was the original configuration and intention of the South Brooklyn line into Jay St.?
Same as now, by all my indicators. Remember that the Culver Line was a more important line in the era when the IND was being built. The gradual diminution of service which started with Unification in 1940 drove some of its traffic to other lines, especially Brighton.
2) Were there any express trains on South Brooklyn tracks, and what were they called?
Yes. The F ran on these tracks for some years after Chrystie Street opened, with the GG as local to Church Avenue. This, or something like it, was the original intention.
3) If there were to be a use for the South Brooklyn express tracks today, what could they be used for? What would the service be called?
Probably same as (2).
AHA!
So the lower level station at Bergen WAS in use at some point!?
Then why would the station itself be un-tiled, with painted concrete and "old lights.?" It must have been depressing down there.
And is there any evidence? Any maps showing express service? Anything showing the super-express bypass? Any diamond F's? (I know, it was too early for diamond convention.)
Thanks for the info!
-Andrew Merelis
There was a fire or something in lower Bergen some years ago and they never rehabbed it, which is pretty stupid in case they might someday want to institute service on tracks that are bought and paid for.
You can find the service shown on maps of the era. The service pattern was that during rush hours there were essential three services--GG trains ran local to Church Avenue, Kings Highway bound F trains ran express to Church, then local to Kings, COney Island Bound F trains ran express to Kings Highway (heavy traffic direction south of Church).
The lower level at bergen was in use at various times and was once tiled and lit with the incandescent lights that used to be everywhere. At the time, the upper level was tiled and lit the same way, so downstairs was no more depressing than up.
At some point in the '70s, the lower level was removed from regular service. The tiles were stripped for a planned renovation which never occurred. It wasn't until the mid '80s that the upper level was retiled and relit.
Based on the colors of the home signals, it's easy to decide how service was originally planned. At the north end of Bergen upper NB, Home Signal L18 gives a green (main line) to the Crosstown G heading to Hoyt, and a yellow (secondary line) to the Sixth Ave F heading to Jay St. In the opposite direction, Home Signal R6, north of Bergen St on the SB F line, gives a green for the EXPRESS track and a yellow for the LOCAL.
AHA!
So, theoretically my puzzle is solved by including the Crosstown 2-track in my math:
-The 2-tk South Brooklyn Express was designed to feed into 2-tks of Jay. St.
-The 2-tk South Brooklyn Local was designed to feed into the 2-tks of the Crosstown!
-The 2-tk Fulton Express was designed to feed the other 2 tracks at Jay St.
-The 2-tk Fulton Local was designed to feed the Court St. Terminal, with potential connection to 2nd avenue trunk line via dedicated east river tunnel.
Mystery solved. Q.E.D. Does this sound right?
Thank you very much for that useful signal information. A piece of the puzzle I couldn't so easily find on line.
-Andrew Merelis
In the original scheme of things IND, no locals were to have crossed from Queens or Brooklyn into Manhattan, only express trains.
The GG ran Queens Crosstown to Church via the local tracks in South Brooklyn.
The HH was supposed to run local on Fulton to Court Street, but I do not believe it ever did so, but only ran as a shuttle to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
The D was supposed to run express through South Brooklyn (such as the E and the F do through west Queens) and then ride the Culver Line.
The A was supposed to run Express on the Fulton and into Manhattan via the Cranberry Tunnel.
So there was supposed to be no fantastic merges through this area.
Elias
Then why would the station itself be un-tiled, with painted concrete and "old lights.?" It must have been depressing down there.
Yes, lower Bergen was indeed tiled originally. See the movie "Jacob's Ladder" to see the original tiles of lower Bergen.
I once went through Bergen St. lower level due to a GO before Jacob's Ladder was filmed, and the station wasn't tiled. I think they were removed earlier than that. Anyone know for sure?
I don't know for sure about when the tiles were removed, but there is no doubt that you can see very clearly IND "Bergen"'s in the backround, in the movie, and the color band is also the correct color. I always read that is was filmed in lower Bergen, and I don't know why a movie company would disguise some other station to read "Bergen", so that makes me think that it really was filmed there - and it had tiles. So your guess is as good as mine.
Bergen definitely had tiles at least through hte end of F express service south of Jay Street in 1976. What it never had, IIRC, was advertising in the non-tiled concrete wall boxes all IND underground stations came with, giving it a "barren" appearance even when in revenue service.
Andrew: You certainly did your homework in researching the question of the express tracks on the IND South Brooklyn Line. Paul has already answered most of your query but I will try to add a little more.
As designed the four track IND 8th Avenue Line was to continue to Brooklyn as the four track IND Fulton Street Line, only there were to be two separate river crossings; the Fulton-Cranberry Streets tubes for the express tracks and a second tunnel which was never built that would have connected the stub-end local tracks at the Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center) with the stub-end local tracks at the present day Court Street Station.
Tne IND Queens Line and the IND South Brooklyn Line were also built as a continuous four track line from 179 Street-Jamaica to Church Street in Brooklyn. In this case the local tracks would run via the Crosstown Line and not enter Manhattan while the express tracks entered Manhattan via the 53 Street Tunnel and turn south to become the local tracks of the 6 Avenue Line and then recross the East River via the Rutgers Street Tunnel to become the express tracks of the IND South Brooklyn Line.
Note that the express tracks of the 6 Avenue Line had they been built as planned would have connected to the Central Park West Line at 53 Street (as they do) in the north and in the south they would have connected to the South 4 Street subway in Brooklyn using the current center tracks at the 2 Avenue Station.
This is something of an over simplification and does not take into account the use of switches but does give a general idea of what the planners had in mind.
What I find curious is the assumption that local riders on both the Queens Line and the South Brooklyn Line would happily transfer to express trains either at Queens Plaza or Bergen Street respectively instead of opting for a one seat ride to Manhattan. This was at a time (1930's) when there were already two glowing examples that transit line that do not provide direct service to the center city do not do well. I speak of the New York,Westchester and Boston Railroad which terminated at Wills Avenue in The Bronx and the Putnam Divison of the New York Central Railroad which terminated at Segwick Avenue in The Bronx.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What I find curious is the assumption that local riders on both the Queens Line and the South Brooklyn Line would happily transfer to express trains either at Queens Plaza or Bergen Street respectively instead of opting for a one seat ride to Manhattan.
But that was the theory. That people would want a fast ride in the middle and a distributor at the end. So most trains in Manhattan would be able to run as expresses and then you would transfer to locals in the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens--in theory maximizing the capacity of river tunnel by using them for the best services, whilebeing able to have local services (GG, HH) which never entered Manhattan.
Decent theory. Too bad it didn't work out.
Paul: That is so true. Look at all the money that has been spent on the IND Queens Line to correct the original mistake. The 11 Street Connection and the 63 Street Tunnel were good improvements but the latest one comes at the expense of the Crosstown Line which for the first time in its history seems to be carrying a lot of people who don't like changing at Court Square.
Larry,RedbirdR33
but the latest one comes at the expense of the Crosstown Line which for the first time in its history seems to be carrying a lot of people who don't like changing at Court Square.
The Court Square-Ely connection was only a recent transfer (last 10-15 years or so). Before that it was a simple "same track-same platform" transfer at Queens Plaza.
Well, same track/platform on one side, the other was just a simple transfer to the other platform at Queens Plaza.
Based on these proposed operations, and looking at a pre-Chrystie map, one sees: the D on the Culver, which would have been rerouted under Houston St to S 4 St; the F terminating at Bdwy-Lafayette, continuing as planned on the Culver. But what about the BB? Its Herald Square terminal would no longer be available. Would it have been "supersized" to go to Brooklyn, or where as an intraborough local would it have been turned?
Andrew: This will address the part of your query regarding the "HH" route and the use of the IND South Brooklyn Line express tracks.
The "HH Fulton Street Local" designation was indeed intended to cover trains providing local service on the IND Fulton Street Line. In practice it was assigned to the shuttle service which ran between Court Street and Hoyt-Schmerhorn Streets Monday thru Saturday from about 7am-7pm. This service ran from April 9,1936 until June 1,1946 as you stated in your commentary.
The "HH Fulton Street Local" designation was officially revived on February 1,1962 when it was assinged to the IND Rockaway Shuttles. The shuttles had been operating since 1956 with no official designation. This HH lasted until 1972 when all Rocakway service was included under the "A" train banner. (at least on the subway maps.)
Express service on the IND South Brooklyn Line began on August 19,1968 when all F trains began operating express in both directions between Bergen Street and Church Avenue during rush hours. GG trains were extended from Smith-9 Streets to Church Avenue during the rush hours to provide local service. Due to complaints from Park Slope residents that there was no through service to Manhattan from the local stations service was revised on June 16,1979 with Kings Highway F trains making local stops in the direction of heavy traffic between Bergen Street and Church Avenue while running express in the direction of light traffic. Coney island F trains continued to run express in both directions. Service was again revised on January 19,1976 with all F trains running express in the direction of light traffic only with all F trains running express in the direction of light traffic only. There was no express service in the direction of heavy traffic. August 27,1976 was the last day of express service in either direction on the South Brooklyn Line. Please note that I have confined this post to the express service north of Church Avenue and not the express operation on the former BMT Culver Line south of that point.
August 27,1976 was one of those dark days in transit history. Not only did we loss express service on the South Brooklyn Line but it was also the last day of operation of the "EE Queens-Broadway Local" and the "K Broadway/Brooklyn-6 Avenue Local." It was also the last day of GG service to Chruch Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The "HH Fulton Street Local" designation was officially revived on February 1,1962 when it was assinged to the IND Rockaway Shuttles. The shuttles had been operating since 1956 with no official designation. This HH lasted until 1972 when all Rocakway service was included under the "A" train banner. (at least on the subway maps.)
H service did make a comeback. In 1985, when double letters were discontinued, H trains were the Rockaway-Broad Channel midday/evening weekend service, and the round-robin rockaway night service. Previously, the midday H was just called (CC) {as opposed to < CC > the rush hour designation} and the Night H was called the "A" on maps.
J Trainloco: It was unfortunate that the revived "H" had such a short life. Now the Rockaway Parkway Shuttles are designated "S",along with about five or six other routes on the system.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Much better! Meet you at the S train in an hour. :)
You're on the right track. Except for the three-track Bronx line, the original IND had no outer-borough expresses continuing into Manhattan. The Queens Boulevard local tracks fed only into the Crosstown (GG) line; the connection the R uses now came in the 50's, and of course the 63rd Street connection just opened recently. The Fulton Street local tracks feed only into the Court Street stub (yes, there were plans to possibly continue the line past that point into Manhattan, but those plans were notably not part of the originally built system). And the South Brooklyn local tracks also feed only into the Crosstown line.
If the IND system planners had gotten their way, today's F would run express on the South Brooklyn line. Local stops would only be served by the G, which would also be the only Queens Boulevard local.
Fortunately, service was never operated this way, at least not to the extremes the planners had intended. Fulton Street locals always switched to the express track at Hoyt so they, too, could get to Manhattan; Court Street was never served by more than a shuttle. It wasn't until many decades later that the GG became the only South Brooklyn local, and that service pattern only lasted a few years. The Queens Boulevard local tracks were connected to the nearby BMT tube to Manhattan in the 50's.
It has been proposed recently to extend the V to Church as a local, permitting the F to run express while still providing Manhattan service at local stations. There are two major barriers to doing this now. First is the car shortage. Second is the dysfunctional Bergen Street interlocking: due to a fire a few years ago, the switches can be set to route all Manhattan trains onto the local track or all Manhattan trains onto the express track, but they can't alternate from train to train. The repair work has begun.
The express tracks aren't abandoned, per se. They're not currently used in everyday revenue service, but they're no more abandoned than any of the excess express tracks you see around the system that get used once in a while for a GO or an on-the-fly reroute (except these tracks in particular can't be used for an on-the-fly reroute without difficulty since the switches have to be set manually). For two or three weeks last year, midday F trains were running, in revenue service, on the express tracks. However, the lower level at Bergen Street is considered an abandoned station, and unless that status changes, no trains stop there. I can confirm, from rides on the F during this GO, that there are platforms and even modern signs down there, but the lighting is very poor.
Yes, the F and V would have to merge at Jay, just like the A and C have to merge at Hoyt. That's because we're dealing ultimately with a system that was designed for only expresses to cross the East River.
After tracks B3 and B4 break of the main line just N/O Bergen St., they are concidered yard tracks. These tracks are inspected once a month. You are right, they are not abandoned. Like you said they are used to reroute or to move non revenue trains like work trains or light trains. Unfurtunetly I have never walked this section. I don't know the state of the LL of Bergen St. If I do I will post a report on the condition.
That wasn't the case in June 2001, when revenue trains, carrying passengers, ran through the lower level of Bergen for two weeks. Passengers aren't allowed to ride over yard tracks. It's certainly possible that the situation has changed since then.
However, the lower level at Bergen Street is considered an abandoned station, and unless that status changes, no trains stop there. I can confirm, from rides on the F during this GO, that there are platforms and even modern signs down there, but the lighting is very poor.
So you have seen the lower Bergen Station - pretty neat. I was on the F train once, and at Jay St it was announced that the train would be going "express" to Church. I was supposed to get off at Jay, but wasn't going to miss that! I got back on, and I got all excited as I figured I would get to ride through there. Wouldn't you know it, it went "express" --- on the local track -- oh well.
ANyway, as much as I would love to see express service there again, and it would be great if the V is extended to Church, there are a few problems (aside from just the car shortage).
-One being that we are still paying for the IND-BMT rivalry of the 1930's today. The IND went out of it's way to make using and transferring to the BMT as difficult as possible. They did this at many locations. In this case, the express would bypass the 4th Ave-9th St transfer, as 4th Ave was designed as a local station.
-Bergen is another small inconvenience, as it is designed as an express station, but it's a pain because it is a two level station. This would be more of a problem if the G was used as the only local, but it's a small problem just the same. The truth is though that just because Bergen is set up as an "express" station, it doesn't really have to be used as such. It could remain a local station (I don't know if it really is an important station anyway, especially if the local stations are served by Manhattan-bound trains anyway). Express trains could just run by like they run by any abandoned station, such as 91st Street, etc. I don't believe it's that important of a station that it must be an express. The only time it would be very important to use it as an express stop would be if the G provided the only local service, which is a whole problem unto itself.
In February 2001, I was on a Q train rerouted via the F due to a stabbing at Grand. After running W4-Delancey-Jay, we stopped and awaited further instructions, and while waited I asked the T/O what his guess was. He told me he thought we'd run express down the F -- I guess he didn't realize we wouldn't be able to get to the express track unless he got off the train and moved the switch by hand, and even then we'd probably get stuck behind a relaying G train a few stops down the line. But then the C/R announced that we'd be making all stops to Avenue X. In the end we only made it to Kings Highway before being bounced off, but the C/R assured us that a D(!) would be along to take us the rest of the way. (Actually, an F came first, followed by an empty D that sat in the station for a while but didn't open its doors.)
As long as the V fills the role of the F at local stations, I don't see a problem. It's unfortunate that the transfer point to the BMT is at a local station, but unless lots of people coming from the south on the IND transfer there, does it really matter if it's the F or the V that stops there? (And if the F runs express, the G is forced to continue to Church -- which means the G will also stop at 4th Avenue.)
I think that they should run the V to Kings Highway and the F express and the G to Church. That is how the line was designed after it was connected to the BMT Culver Line.
Another thought... There has been talk over the years of a connection between Brighton and Culver with the connecting track running under or around the edge of Prospect Park. If the connection was made (less the 1500 feet of connecting track) then the G or an extended V could run into the Brighton Line or maybe over the Franklin Ave. Shuttle. I think that it would be good to extend the G to Franklin Ave. over the connection.
What do you think of that?
One thing that would be good about such a connection is that it would take some of the stress of Dekalb Ave, and it would divert some of the Brighton Line's traffic to the underused Rutgers tunnel from the over-stressed Manhattan Bridge. Such a connection would be useful at times like this when the the capacity on the Manhattan Bridge is cut in half due to work on the bridge. The Manhattan Bridge is vital to many of the routes. This would lesson some of the necessity to rely on the MB so much.
However, the lower level at Bergen Street is considered an abandoned station, and unless that status changes, no trains stop there. I can confirm, from rides on the F during this GO, that there are platforms and even modern signs down there, but the lighting is very poor.
The southbound lower level of Bergen St. was temporarily opened for passanger use during a 1994 midday GO which had all F trains running on the express tracks from Bergen St. to 4th Ave, and the G terminating at Bergen St, upper level. Extra strings of lights were set up and there was a platform attendant to guide the bewildered transferring passangers. Many thought the train was stopping in a tunnel, not an unused station.
Wow, that was a GO I wish I was able to ride on!
So, the search is on for explanations to explain how they might have originally intended that junction to be built. The first major clue seems to come from the existence of the Abandoned Court St. terminal station. It feeds directly and solely from the local Fulton St. tracks. This would alleviate half of our mystery, if the Fulton St. local was desingned to terminate at Court St., and if ONLY the express tracks were intended to continue on to Manhattan.
Although, I have read conflicting stories on this, I do believe that the original IND intent for Court street was to terminate the Fulton local. A stupid idea, but I guess they figured the local passengers would transfer to an express at some point. I have read this in many books, so it comes from more than just subtalk. The conflict to this as the original design comes in because I also heard that there was a plan to connect Court Street to Hudson Terminal (WTC). I don't know if that is based on fact or subtalk fantasy.
As for the Begen Street issues and the Brooklyn super-express mystery. I often wondered about that myself. If that express was to be used, in it's ultimate wisdom, the IND made the local stations in between become "non-Manhattan" stations, which I feel is a major reason for the express to not being used. But for some reason the IND felt in a lot of it's planning was that local passengers would jump off the local for the express at the nearest express station. But that would be a major inconvenienc for those people, especially with a two level Bergen Street express station.
Just a sidenote, on old IND maps I have noticed that when service first opened, the trains ran High Street to Jay Street to Bergen Street - a route that does not run today. I don't know if that means anything, but maybe it does. I assume that that was only meant as a temporary arrangement though as they were planning to build or actually building the other connections to Jay Street.
The Court Street spur was intended to meet the tracks at Hudson Terminal. If I'm not mistaken, it's in one of these two books, "Under the Sidewalks of NYC" or "The Subway" by Stan whats-his-name.
I don't think so. If the IND 8th Ave locals tracks were to have continued past the site now, they would have met up with the BMT Broadway line makeing the sharp turn entering Cortlandt St
1. The Hudson Terminal was just that: a terminal. There were no plans to extend that anywhere. After the E branches off at Canal st, there is a provision BEFORE Hudson Terminal to connect to the Never built Worth St subway. This would have ran to S.4th st, along with the Houston St. subway (from the "F" line of today).
2. There were plans to link Court St. with a second avenue subway. Of course, that subway was never built. These plans were after the construction of Court St, and court street's original purpose was to be a terminal.
Thank you for quoting from my IND History article! :)
So.... in the final analysis... it seems that the IND planned well ahead of itself, and it planned on having 8 tracks merge into 4 from the get-go. 4-tracks from the local and express Fulton St. line, and 4-tracks from the local and express South Brooklyn line, all merging into a standard 4-track express and local station beneath Jay St. Why would they create such a horrible merge? They were in the business of OVER building, not UNDER building. I'm still not satisfied.
The original plans for the Queens Blvd trunk line would have had branches in multiple places feeding the trunk. The "Winfield Spur" is just one example. The connection to the local tracks just east of Roosevelt Ave to the never build Rockaway Line is another.) If you think the crowding is bad now, imagine what it would have been like if all these feeder lines had been built. So it doesn't surprise me that Jay Street is "simply" a 4 track station, with the merge you describe, because there would have been others like it, too.
--Mark
Jay St's layout is also lacking in flexibility. Unlike the Queens Blvd. IND, and the 8th Ave line in upper Manhattan, there's no real way to diversify service from 2 lines to another. If your train uses the Rutger St. tunnel, you must run via the Smith St. line. If your train uses Cranberry St, you must be routed via Fulton St. Unlike the junction of the Washington Heights and Concourse lines south of 145th St, where either a 6th Ave or an 8th Ave train could access each line. I guess this is more evidence that the original plans for both the Fulton and South Brooklyn local stations would be served by lines that used neither tunnel.
Jay St's layout is also lacking in flexibility.
You must also remember that the IND had intended its South Fourth Street station to be its major Brooklyn hub.
Since the days of those dreams the demographics of Brooklyn shifted dramatically, and to us today, that seems the most unlikely place for such a hub.
Elias
Of course, had the 'hub' been constructed there, it's possible that we'd have a station named S.4th st/Metrotech instead of Metrotech being at Jay St.
Yes, The presence of subways, and of good subway connections in particular would have altered the way subsequent demographic shifts would have occured.
So if South fourth had come forth some 'dead' neighborhoods in Brooklyn would have flourshed.
Elias
One would think that the IND, who worked so hard to get express service to "South Brooklyn" would maintain seperate tracks for express and local service upon entrance into Manhattan...The express tracks just merge into the local, just north of Bergen St., and the combined express and local 2-track service pulls into Jay St.
Actually it's the other way arround--the local merges onto the express. The natural thing for the S. Brooklyn express is to go through to Jay Street, then through the Rutgers Tunnel into Manhattan. The natural thing for the local to do is to turn to Hoyt-Schermerhorn then into the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line. That is just what today's (G) train does.
Though the Jay St station is four-track, it is not a local-express configuration.. It's a station where different services merge, allow for a cross-platform transfer, then diverge, like Queensboro Plaza except more complicated.
As mentioned in previous posts, the IND locals in Brooklyn and Queens were not originally designed to go to Manhattan. Both the South Brooklyn local and Queens Blvd. local fed into the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown, and the Fulton Street local just died at Court St. (now the Transit Museum.) Of course that was rectified in various ways, with the connection between the Queens Blvd. local and the 60th St BMT tunnel, with the merge of the Fulton St. local and expresses at Hoyt, and with the general disuse of local-express service on the S. Brooklyn line and the switching of the local to the express just before the Jay St. junction.
:-) Andrew
There has been much talk about the re-structuring of the management of the MTA into 5 simpler and more stream-lined divisions.
While this is an excellent idea from a management standpoint, (ESPECIALLY the creation of a "planning" unit that operates, theoretically, as if it has ONE head,) there is one problem...
The merge of MNR and LIRR into MTA Trains. It has not been made clear, to the best of my information gathering, whether or not the names MNR and LIRR will be discontinued.
Metro North Railroad can be called whatever they want to call it, and it wouldn't bother me. It is a creation of the 1970's, and the name is fairly non-descript. North of what? It could be a railroad in Northern Canada to someone not familiar with the area. Plus, it services three somewhat-distinct locations:
- Connecticut (from GCT)
- Up State New York East of Hudson (from GCT)
- Up State New York West of Hudson (from Hoboken, NJ!!) (soon to have connections to Penn Station).
So, it seems that Metro North is just a name that has umbrella coverage over "all of the regional rail lines the MTA operates that are not on Long Island and happen to be mostly north of the city." Call that whatever you want.
BUT -- The Long Island Rail Road..... this is a different story. There is as much history here as there was in the Original Penn Station or in a well preserved brownstone. We're talking landmarks preservation worthy material.
Ever notice how the Metro North was "MNR" and The Long Island Rail Road was "LIRR"? Why isn't the Metro North "MNRR"? Why isn't the Long Island, "LIR"? This is because the name of the Long Island Rail Road was chartered in the mid 1800's, when railroads were still so new, that the word "railroad" hadn't been created. Rather, it was a two-word description: A rail road. Thus the Long Island Rail Road. Metro North is a railroad. It is called Metro North Railroad. One word. More modern. No history in the name.
My overriding point here, is that the LIRR is the oldest railroad operating under its original charter and name in the United States. To change its name now, simply because of a management re-alignment would be a silly and narrow-minded mistake. The LIRR name has survived the Pennsy years, and the MTA years so far. I intend to show up at the LIRR Committee Meeting tomorrow morning (Thurs 10/16) to voice this opinion. The meeting is at 9:30a.m. at 347 Madison Avenue. 5th floor board room. Open to the public, and you can sign up for time to speak for a minute or two. Sign up is 30 minutes before the meeting begins, supposedly. See you there!
-Andrew Merelis
BUT -- The Long Island Rail Road..... this is a different story. There is as much history here as there was in the Original Penn Station or in a well preserved brownstone. We're talking landmarks preservation worthy material.
I agree with you completely. While I think that it is a good idea to combine the two railroads from a management point of view. The names for the public should have the two different identities. Imagine watching the morning news. Currently they say, "There is a delay on the Long Island Rail Road". How would anyone know where the problem is if the two are combined into MTA RailRoad, and they say, "There is a delay on MTA RailRoad". Both names should remain, just to avoid confusion at the very least.
But the history aspect is very important also. The LIRR is currently the third oldest railroad in the WORLD still operating under it's original name (don't know what the first two are). The name dates to 1834. It would be a shame to loose that to something as nondescript as MTA RailRoad in everyday usage.
I see the LIRR name, and the MNR name, both surviving at least as operating divisions, just as the NYC Subway has the A and B divisions (and used to have IRT, BMT, and IND.)
:-) Andrew
My overriding point here, is that the LIRR is the oldest railroad operating under its original charter and name in the United States. To change its name now, simply because of a management re-alignment would be a silly and narrow-minded mistake.
On the other hand, the LIRR has provided unacceptably poor services for too many years. Its name may have historical value, but has been tainted.
>>On the other hand, the LIRR has provided unacceptably poor services for too many years. Its name may have historical value, but has been tainted. <<
Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case:
During interviews of Ron Ziel and Vincent Seyfried, the leading historians (at least in terms of being published) on the history of the LIRR, I asked them "How has service changed over the years?" I expected them to say exactly what your sentiment is: That the MTA has done a shoddy job of maintaining a once glorious railroad with a true history. Their answers were exactly the opposite:
They both pointed out that for the first century of operations, up until the 20th century, travel on the LIRR was horrendus and dangerous. Not only did you have to deal with steam belching, hot oil flying, terrible amounts of noise pollution, and a layer of soot so thick, you could become unrecognizable, but you were in rickety, un-climate-controlled, wooden cars, which would collide or de-rail with much more frequency than today, and possibly impail you with wooden splinters upon doing so. Ron Ziel says that to this day, he refuses to ride on a railfan wooden car if it is scheduled to exceed 20 miles per hour, because if you're in a wooden car, and there's a serious problem, it splinters. When a toothpick splinters, it's o.k. When a box the size of a train car splinters, and you're in it, you often get splintered to death.
It is true, that the LIRR had an "on time" record of near or at 100% for all the years up until the 1950's when they got rid of the steam trains, and what would become the MTA took over. And now it hovers around 90%. So if you just go by that statistic, then I would have to agree that service has been faltering. But from a comfort point of view, especially with the Air Conditioning mostly working now on the aging electric fleet, which is a miracle, and the new, comfortable bi-level diesel coaches which are like night and day when compared to what they replaced... I would have to say that the LIRR has exemplary service, especially compared to its own history. There aren't even any low-level platforms anymore. For a regional rail road, and the largest in the country, that's fairly impressive. Take New Jersey tansit for a day, and see what I mean. They still struggle with those silly gratings that reveal staircases to un-modernized street-level platforms. And even their newest train cars, the comet V's have those flat-backed school-bus seats. Wait until they see our new M-7's! (provided they work correctly. I'm VERY wary of Bombardier).
So, I'm sorry, but those old wise men made a believer out of me, and I had to stand up for the railroad on this issue. You took a cheap shot, and I welcome criticism of the LIRR, as I will be first in line to offer it, but only with some substantiation. Let's just say, that 75 years ago, you couldn't just get on at Port Jefferson and ride all the way to Penn Station while taking a nap and feeling safe and fairly comfortable. I mean, hey, it's not your den.. it's a train.. and for sharing such a small space with so many people, I think it's a good deal. And even though you can only live out my specific example twice a day in either direction (there are two direct to penn trains from Port Jeff each weekday in each direction), I think it's better than what it used to be... which is ZERO direct trains. It took dual locomotives to make that possible.
Yes, yes, I know. In the 40's and 50's they would change locomotives at Jamaica instead of making you change trains. But that's not a REAL one seat ride. Remember Amtrak's little New Haven dance? Do they still do that since the Acela-ifying of the NY-Boston?
I digress.
-Andrew Merelis
It's surely true that LIRR service today is vastly superior to what it was like over 100 years ago. But so what? That's a meaningless comparison. What matters is how LIRR service compares to what riders reasonably expect. Speaking as a rider, I do not reasonably expect hot cars every summer, filthy trains, near-opaque windows, nonworking doors, lazy overpaid unionized employees, incessant delays, and so on. Conditions 100 years ago are pretty irrelevant to the here-and-now.
I can't compare the LIRR to YOUR EXPECTATIONS of the LIRR. I can compare it to itself. I can compare it to other Rail Roads. But to compare it to your arbitrary stardands is problematic. I am left in a position to encourage you to get a car, which will stay cleaner, have clear windows, the doors will always work, you will not have deal with any unions, or employees at all for that matter, the AC will be far more reliable, at least for the first few years (remember, the M-1 fleet is almost 40 years old), and... incessant delays? Take the LIE.
-Andrew Merelis
Everything you describe is the same as it was in the 1960's when *I* commuted on the LIRR....except for two things.
1. Opaque windows:
Back in the 60's, LIRR had glass windows, and hardly a day went by rocks didn't hit the glass windows and someone wound up being covered with glass shards.
2. Hot cars in the summer:
In the 1960's, only 242 cars out of over 1200 were even air conditioned. (The 242 cars were the 1950's P-S stock and the two RDC's. Other stuff was "supposedly: air conditioned, but did it ever work? HAH!!!)
It took dual locomotives to make that possible.
Dual-mode locomotives that have been nothing but problems. Currently only round trip train on each of the diesel branches a day operate direct to Penn Station, because all OF the "brand new" diesels are going to have to be sent to the midwest one by one for repairs. Some are sitting cannabalized in the yards due to fires, and other problems. The whole DM/DE30 purchase has been a disaster. Not really the LIRR's fault, but I don't know why they chose to purchase those engines, as opposed to proven engines, such as the Genesis units, that have been running on it's sister route, Metro-North and Amtrak.
And don't get me wrong, as I really like the LIRR, but I do feel that Metro North is much better run than the LIRR, which I don;t understand, as they are both MTA.
However, after all the venting over the wrongs of the LIRR, I still am amazed if standing at Jamaica of all the different trains going to different routes and connecting with other trains, and for the most part, it does runs like clockwork. The LIRR is a great railroad.
Well, he finally made it to the Big Apple after all!
Ed Davis, Sr. known to most as BIGEDIRTMANL came by my office yesterday at 4:30 pm. I gave him the .50 tour of the Borough Hall building and then we headed over to Jay Street for an F train (44/46 ypes) that we took down to Ave. X.
Gave Big Ed the tour of Coney Island Shops with special emphasis on the MTH (Mike's Train House) cars sitting in the yard. Ed particularly enjoyed seeing the R-9s and the AB standards being restored in the shop. He was grinning from ear-to-ear.
Anyhow, he says 'hi' to all his fellow SubTalkers and reports that he finds the site too overwhelming at times and apologizes for not posting as often for that reason. I introduced him to Mike Hanna and his workgang before we headed for home. (Ed road back with me to Flatbush/Nostrand Junction on the B6 so he could get a #2 to Penn Sta. for his train trip back to New Jersey where he's staying with a friend).
Before the night was over he was able to sit in the cab of an R-32 on the F (we lucked out)! The T/O was amazed at Ed's stories of operating wooden rapid transit cars on the Mrytle Avenue El, etc., so he was given time to pose for some shots in the cab. I reminded Ed not to try and make off with the train -- although the temptation was there. LOL! :).
I took plenty of pictures at CI Yards. Should have some downloaded by tomorrow.
I believe he wants me to send a big MOOOOOOO to Kevin & BingBong! ;)
Anyhow, he says 'hi' to all his fellow SubTalkers and reports that he finds the site too overwhelming at times and apologizes for not posting as often for that reason.
Just let Big Ed know we miss his great imput here at SubTalk! He is a book of knowledge on all the old trains, and miss his posts.
Chris
Chris, I'll certainly relay your message to Ed...
If you see him before he leaves this weekend, tell him we both send a big MOOOO!!! back at him. He's coming up this weekend, stopping ove ralong the way back west, and we're both looking forward to seeing him. The pictures from last weekend ahould be back from the lab by then, so we can share the whole story and the glossy photos with arrows and circles and a paragraph on the back of each one....:o)
GREAT! I think he'd get a real kick out of seeing the "Gathering of Foamers" grabbing handle time on the R-9.
I finally got my East Broad Top photos uploaded onto a Webshots >East Broad Top 2 page. It was overcast and rainy much of the day (Saturday), but we still had a most enjoyable time riding and photographing the 1926 Brill/EBT gasoline-electric motorcar M-1 and riding behind and photographing EBT 1912 Baldwin 2-8-2 #14. GE 47-tonner M-7 added some color pulling the "picnic train".
We took the time this year to find some of the long-unused properties, such as Pogue bridge, Saltillo depot, a Sideling Hill tunnel portal, the remnants of the Saltillo bridge, Coles tankhouse, and Robertsdale station.
I thought that EBT was closing, because of low rider ship. I been there once about 12 or more years agao, I was a nice setup.
Robert
I thought that EBT was closing, because of low rider ship.
The EBT is having loads of problems, with Mr Kovalchik haggling over the value ($1 mil vs $10 mil), and only one locomotive is operating now vs 4 two years ago, but they just re-aquired two cars (from Colorado, $50,000) first aquired in 1916, and the shop people talk as though it is a thriving operation. #15 is in the roundhouse being rebuilt, and is expected to operate next summer's schedule while #14 gets its flue expiration work done.
Hopefully, Nick Kovalchik will realize that his "valuation" is way out of line with reality and everything that was prepared to save the treasure that EBT is will take place.
Pressure needs to be applied to Nick, as loss of the EBT will also kill the Rockhill Trolley Museum.
If you live in Pennsylvana, write your State Representatives and Senators to fully support the EBT proposals. This has the firm possibility of becoming the Cass of Pennsylvania.
Last week I was quite disheartened to see ALL of the garage cans on the length of the platforms at Columbus Circle and Spring St. (the two stations I NOTICED) piled so high, that there were little garbage sculptures sticking out of the tops, and a ring of garbage around the cans on the floor.
This is a sad indication of how quickly this city can slide back into its old ditry dysfunctional ways in times of economic decline.
Something has to be done. Perhaps if we make enough noise, letting the authorities know that we won't stand for the way things used to be in the city, they will be a little more mindful of the quality of life issues that have allowed New York City to blossom in the past decade.
I understand that there is less money, and therefore less manpower to do the simple things like collecting garbage, but the situation I saw last week was completely atrocious. A subway system in a state of good repair with garbage all over the place is a waste of money and time. There must be a way to deploy the garbage collectors in a more even manner. Can anyone shed some light on how the "system" works, and how it might be more efficiently managed in times of belt-tightening?
-Andrew Merelis
I understand that there is less money, and therefore less manpower to do the simple things like collecting garbage, but the situation I saw last week was completely atrocious. A subway system in a state of good repair with garbage all over the place is a waste of money and time
After all the progress they have made in the last decade or two, it would be a shame to head back down that path. It does start with something as simple as garbage collection at stations.
To The Board:
I was kind of surprised this hadn't been posted yet, but check out your R-142 New Tech Strip Maps and consist make-ups. Changes are being made rapidly, and you should find the fleet being distributed numerically for the first time.
It looks like 6301-6670 are being concentrated on the 2, and everything else on the 5.
This was, IIRC, the assignment as originally proposed.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well Sunday 6321-25/6586-90 where in service on the # 5 Line. Had the set twice. Also 6751-55 is on the #5 Line.
The Dyre-E180 segment or the 149-BG segment?
Dyre to E 180 St.
You're right, George. Thanks for pointing that out. That would explain why I spotted a newly returned 6396-6400 coupled to 6611-15 yesterday. For those who don't remember, 6396-6400 was the second 5 car R-142 set (6401-05 being the first) involved in a pull apart on the 5 at Mott Av, sometime ago.
On that related note, 7056-65 are out testing for 5 service, as is 7721-30 on the 4.
BTW, Is it possible for the signage to display "5 7th Avenue Exp?" That's exactly what I saw while 7056-65 were road testing yesterday.
-Stef
it seems like it if you saw it.And that's good especially when 5 trains get rerouted over to 7th Ave and the 2 runs over Lexington Av.
"On that related note, 7056-65 are out testing for 5 service, as is 7721-30 on the 4."
(How do I make Italics, again?)
Have you noted 7031-7040 on the 5 and/or 7711-7720 on the 4 yet? They were supposed to be accepted for service by Tuesday (October 15).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Haven't seen anything on this front with regards to those sets.
I would imagine #5 Car assignments to change once all R-142s are in, and 7000 Series Cars to go elsewhere.
Assignments Should Be Like This : 6301-6670 to the 2 (370 Cars)
To The 5:
6671-6805 (135 Cars)
6816-75 (60 Cars)
6951-60 (10 cars)
6971-80 (10 cars)
6991-7030 (40 Cars)
7051-55 (5 Cars)
The Grand Total is 260 R-142 Cars for Lexington Ave Service.
Not In Service Yet: 7031-40 (?)
7056-65
7066-70
Where is 7041-50?
-Stef
The changeover that is said to be taking place is not complete as of yet.
There's a flip flop of cars running on those 2 Lines. For instance, I observed a #2 set, 6301-05 and 6556-60 on the 5 moments ago. 6486-90 remains on the 5 and is coupled to 6821-25. 6361-65 and 6406-10, formerly of the 5, are on the 2 right now. Car assignments seem awfully wacky at the moment.
-Stef
We were on a #2 yesterday, #6406-7-8-9-10 with #5 signs inside.
wayne
Strip Maps should be updated hopefully soon.
-Stef
Pigs Fly Too....Again. I wonder when and who will do this work...My Dep. Supt. had a visit from the East 180th Superintendent...begging him to get us the laptops to do our work properly. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent on these trainsets and the only 'new' tool we carry is a TamperProofTorxDriver. Even a programmed PDA would do us well...was that not the idea of these trainsets being able to be interrogated by ANY portable computer? So, continue to enjoy the incorrect announcements and disabled maps. Redbirds are soooo easy!
CI Peter
Pigs Fly Too....Again. I wonder when and who will do this work...
CI Peter
Given the pace of map overlay changeouts this week, pigs aren't the only things that fly.
All it takes is a screwdriver, a dream and working palms. No translation is necesary.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George - got the assignment file via subway buff, finally there is a list of what is a Phase I and what is a Phase II R32, I will make a dictionary of the two car types for my reference.
Oh BTW - saw ex Parts Cars R32GE 3934-3935 on the Charlie on Tuesday at 168 street, looking nice and spiffy. They were the only GE in the trainset.
wayne
Saw 6491-6495/6666-6670.Road cars 6456-6460/6486-6490 on the #2
Saw <5> # 6381-6385/????
More tommorow
6396-6400 are back on the road. They were out yesterday and have #2 Strip Maps now. Strange. They were originally meant for the 2 from the start, but then they wound up sidelined for just about a year after they were delivered. Now, the 2 Car Assignments will be straight, but I would think that the 5 will probably give up those option order cars (7000 Series) to another line (3 or 4?), once the remainder of the primary order gets here. We'll see soon enough.
-Stef
I saw the 6671-75 set was on the beast @ 72St. I did notice the 6486-90 set at Times Square. Also 6721-30 set formerly of the 2 now on the 5 with the 5 line strip maps inside. 72St Station house is coming along good from the street level. I got to ride good ol 1866-70 R62a set on my 3 line up to the "seven-deuce".
6491-6495
6461-6465
I think i saw 6500 to.Saw those on the #2 today
And 6301-6305 saw on the #5
Yesterday I saw a brand new R143 consist on the Test Track near Broad Channel while the A train I was in passed and I waited at BC for the shuttle to Rock Pk.I couldn't quite get the numbers but I know the entire 8-car consist was in the 8200's.I saw an 8200 R143 consist at ENY Yard last week and when I got off at Essex St,it passed by a few mintues later.Maybe that was the one I saw,not enitrely sure.
"Yesterday I saw a brand new R143 consist on the Test Track near Broad Channel while the A train I was in passed and I waited at BC for the shuttle to Rock Pk.I couldn't quite get the numbers but I know the entire 8-car consist was in the 8200's.I saw an 8200 R143 consist at ENY Yard last week and when I got off at Essex St,it passed by a few mintues later.Maybe that was the one I saw,not enitrely sure. "
Probably 8229-8236. It has been testing for almost two weeks. I met it on a Z train crossing the Willy B about a week or so ago. No deliveries above that yet, AFAIK.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I saw 8241-8244 @ ENY on Mondays I think that 82337-8240 was right behind it inside the barn. So there have been deliveries above 8236.
I will start righting down the set I see while I am work the L line at least once a week to keep the Botes updated on the sit.
robert
#8205-6-7-8; did not see the other four numbers, our R38 was going too fast.
wayne
That would be the Siemens propulsion Test Train, which is based at Pitkin.
Numbers are 8205-8212; it has not yet been in passenger service.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
To the Board:
The lone R-29 train (8787/86-8716/17-8741/40-8718/19-8709/08) was observed in the "pocket" at Dyre Ave. on Monday, October 14.
It seemed to be waiting for its chance, but about 9:30 was run light to the East and laid up. Maybe tahmorrah...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Monday Night at 11:15 there was a 10 Car transfer from E 180 to 207 St.
"Monday Night at 11:15 there was a 10 Car transfer from E 180 to 207 St."
Thanks for the observation!
There was also a transfer of 10 various cars from Corona to 207 Street. Now were these the R-29s or more collected R-33s?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Missed the transmition on the operating motor.
The following is the Corona-207 St transfer:
9391-9390-9745-9744-9558-9559-9467-9466-9530-9531
It left Corona on Monday night-saw it in the yard.
Clueless about the R29 transfer.
#1716 7 Flushing Local
Good, this secures more reliable R62A's for the 7. Bye-bye, rusty Redbirds. You will be sorely missed.
If such a transfer of R62A's transpires, where would they come from? The 6?
"If such a transfer of R62A's transpires, where would they come from? The 6?"
There are no more R-62As at Pelham. Would have to be from the 1 and 3.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Weren't there 50 cars in reserve at Pelham? Have those been sent elsewhere?
Those 50 cars went to Livonia Yd on the #3 Line.
Ah, saw that train today running the 5...still going strong!
Cleanairbus
Manhattan-bound 5...stand clear!
I rode 8786 on that train at 625pm going N/B from 42 St-59 St.
8708 was kicking major a$$ on that stretch. Get your rides on it while you still can. It's only a matter of days before they're sent to 207 St.
#8708 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Those R-29s may still be riding the rails. Before long they'll be riding a barge on their way to their watery grave.
#3 West End Jeff
Drat! I didn't see them last week. However, I saw some ML R-33s which still looked pretty good. Many of the WF R-36s were in sorry shape. Overall I rode on four Redbird trains. The last one was on the 5 from 125th St. I got off the 4 train I had been on from Woodlawn and after letting an R-142 5 go by, I looked down the track into the tunnel and saw a red light off to one side of an approaching train. Could that be a marker light? A few seconds later, a second marker light appeared and I knew then it was a Redbird. Oh goody! Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds.
I stayed on that train all the way to Flatbush Ave. and walked through it to the other end, and just as I reached the railfan window, the train took off. It was an all-R-33 consist, and the side signs on every car had crank handles. Didn't they install those square-hole gizmos on the Redbirds? I never noticed. Anyway, I rode that train all the way back to Brooklyn Bridge, and as I got off, I gave a quick pat to lead motor 9183. As the train pulled away, I couldn't help but think this may have been my last ride on a Redbird.
Last time that I heard, the R29 set was still rolling. And the ride on 9183 will probably not be your last. Remember December 8th-Redbird Trip on the B Division. Probably R33 Singles will be used for that. Now those cars just received new trucks and they're in the best shape among all of the RedBirds. They will probably be kept around for work service.
I agree that the R36 Redbirds are in very poor shape. I rode 9702 on the Flushing Local yesterday and that car is in very shoddy shape. Rot holes are all over the place and is a rough rider. Also rode 9212 on the 5-Got a look at 9115-OMG! This has to be the worst car that I've seen-a HUGE rot stain from top to bottom runs down the whole car.
The Redbirds have lasted us for about 40 years-but they have to rest with the fishies. Try and keep a few around for a museum/nostalgia train but other than that-the R142s is our future like it or not.
#7720 4 Lexington Ave Express
#1686 7 Flushing Express
I won't be back until this time next year, so unless there are any Redbirds still around then, I saw them for the last time last week.
Only the World's Fair cars gave up their crank handles.
Gotcha. Thanks.
Please exile this last set to the Steamtown Trolley Mueseum for use in the recently re-opened Laurel Line Tunnel.
A run with a round trip of about four miles.
I only hope the ROW could handle the weight of a married pair of R-29s
Anyone know the rail specs of the Luarel Line and the weight of the R-29s?
These could provide year round service for the trolley Mueseum.
avid
"The tunnel -- 4,747 feet long, 17 feet wide and 22 feet high -- took a year to build and was opened in 1905. A 1952 newspaper clipping said it cost $800,000, but a county estimate put it at $500,000."
---from the Scranton Times
BM,
How far is it from the trolley barn to the north portal?
Add to this the tunnel, then to Stafford Ave. How much now?
Now make a return trip. Now, about how long is the round trip?
If the tunnel is not used during the winter months, layup any extra cars on center track (SIC), the only track in a single track tunnel. 4000 ft. should hold a set or two.
That $800,000.00, did they use existing track and ties or add new or a combo of both?
avid
I don't know about the distances. Would have to look at my topo map at home. The tunnel will be used during the winter because this line is an active freight line. It was refurbished to active freight line standards so I assume it will certainly hold the weight of an R-29. That $800,000 quote was from a 1952 newspaper article about how much it cost to build the tunnel. That is not how much the recent renovation cost.
--Brian
I'm confused ...
- The steam trains run on the active freight line. They (steam) go as far as Moscow, a 13 mile trip.
- The newly restored Laurel line, 19 miles of it, was inactive. The state had cut the line when they removed a bridge (low clearance), but had promised to rebuild the bridge if the line became active again.
So, are they also using the Laurel line for freight now ?
So, are they also using the Laurel line for freight now?
I believe they are, Thurston.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's funny ... you were joking ?
So who's going to pay the cost to cut in a stair case ?
He's not joking! It would be really awesome if the Electric City Trolley Museum got some working NYC subway cars of whatever type. As for boarding, you can just build a tiny wooden high level platform with steps.
[... He's not joking! It would be really awesome if the Electric City Trolley Museum got some working NYC subway cars ...]
Well, awesome maybe be, but likely not.
I think they are into trolleys from early 1900s.
The steam division is very impressive, incl. the 13 mile ride to Moscow.
Since Electric City Trolley Museum is governed by the County of
Lackawanna, they are pretty picky about acquisitions. I can't
imagine SMEEs there, but if anyone from ECTMA is at ARM, I'll
run it by them.
The other problem ECTM in Scranton has is a deplorable shortage of indoor storage space. Their barn is very nice - a solid brick structure converted from somethingorother. However, IIRC, it only has enough space for 6-8 cars! Considering the BVTA collection numbers 3-4 times that number, I'm interested to see what ECTM will do with all the orphans still stored in the Philly area. And, I doubt they'll be acquiring NYC rapid transit cars.
Frank Hicks
They have two car barns. One is in the brick building you mentioned that was formerly a silk mill. The other one is out on the line a few blocks south. I haven't gone by it in a while, but it is either one or two tracks and probably can hold either 2 or 4 trolleys. I'll find out for you and report back here lickity-split.
--Brian
"They have two car barns."
I'll be darned. I didn't know that - thanks for setting me straight! The last time I was in Scranton was 2000, and the one barn they had then was already mostly full. Does anyone have a list of equipment that has been moved from the various BVTA sites to Scranton?
Frank Hicks
Ok, my dad says it is one track and holds two cars. The purpose of this barn, I believe, is to hold the excursion car, and so they can run it out and down to the boarding platform under its own power. The track from the main museum/barn has a gap in the trolley wire for some reason relating to railroad regulations.
--Brian
Veree eeenteresting... I guess I had heard that there was a gap in the wire between the barn and the line, I just hadn't given it much thought for some reason. I suppose that second barn really is a good idea. Is it a newly built pole barn, or a structure that was already there? Also, I wonder what ECTM will use as their second operating car - AFAIK, the only thing that's really close (besides the box motor) is the 46 (and LVT 801???). Boy, it would be nice to see a wood car on the Laurel Line.
Frank Hicks
FRA regs prevent them from stringing wire across Steamtown's
yard. The operating cars have to be transferred to the barn
and shop with a switcher.
I am at the ARM convention and, as promised, I mentioned NYCT
cars to one of the ECTMA reps. The answer, as suspected, was a
polite "what, are you kidding?!"
I've been a wantin to see Steamtown...not too far from Hopeless, New Jersey. P'burgs aquisitions are of interest and not far away but I fix subway cars and not trains...I have far more interest in East Haven. Trains are for train buffs....Redbirds are for NYCTA CED.
Let me clear something up. About the only connections Steamtown National Historic Site has with the Electric City Trolley Museum is that:
1. They are next to each other
2. The trolley uses Steamtown's loading platform (which actually might be owned by the county since it is along the Pocono Main)
3. You can buy a combo ticket good for visits to both places
--Brian
Peter, et., al.,
Steamtown USA by itself is a great place to visit, even for a rt kind of guy like me. If you go & are thinking of staying overnight, consider the Lackawanna Station hotel ... yes they turned the station into a hotel. From the bar you might even see the steam train go by.
Yes,I want to change the M20 part of my handle to B47 since I like that bus route more than the M20 now.Does anyone know how I can get it changed? All responses are welcomed,especially Mr.Pirrman's.
Simply, e-mail Dave or use the Site's Feedback to send a message. He should respond.
If your head wasn't stuck so far up your ass, you would be able to figure it out. Miss know it all.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now now, that's not nice. You should explain to her that changing the handle is real easy. Just apply, rotate to the handle out position and PULL. Then insert OTHER handle. :)
lol.
Peace,
ANDEE
Moo. So did you get yer yayas? :)
You betcha.
Peace,
ANDEE
(grin) ... it was amusing. I didn't notice how WIDE Nancy's smile was until I saw the photos - didn't want to make her nervous in the cab, so I stepped back to the foaming section of the car for her trip. :)
You should have seen the look on your face when you were at the handles while Nancy was photographing you. Talk about dead serious, no-nonsense. I said to Nancy, "Kevin's got his work face on.":)
Even though we were having a blast, running a train *is* serious stuff. Arnines are funny that way - if you lose your attention span for just a second, they can get away from you. And with the geography at Branford, there wasn't a lot of "slop space" to be had. Definitely no sammich eating time like CPW or the Brighton dashes. But I'm pure no nonsense with rolling steel. Couldn't help myself there. But I'll probably be even worse with 1227 because of the reversed controls. That's gonna require even more focus for me since I was so ingrained in running "R-types" ... it's easy to pick up on unfamiliar equipment if your brain isn't already polluted with doing it another way. :)
-frowns- I got a VERY SHORT temper jerkface.So watch it or else you will be in need of a serious facelift
Hey, that's not nice!
Well what he said wasn't nice either.What do you want me to do? Just sit back and take it? I don't think so.That's not how I brought myself up.
Yeah, I'm with you... I thought these remarks were uncalled for.
You cannot change you handle on line, Dave Pirrman must do it for you. Just drop him an email, and he'll set you up with a new bus route!
: ) Elias
mmhmm,I noticed.I already have it changed thanks to Dave.LONG LIVE THE B47:Woodhull Hosp.-Kings Plaza.
Glad you were able to get it changed. Dave is "da Man".
Yep,he sure is.
Well, I don't blame you 4 defending yourself from an insult simply cause you were politely asked a simple question on this board.
Yooooo!!!! Maybe if YOUR head wasn't stuck so far up your ass, maybe you would be a little nicer!!
http://raildriver.com/
This one will blow you away:
http://raildriver.com/rdreview/gp38simulator.htm
Makes you want to run right out and build one! Heypaul should incorporate this into his R-9 cab!!
We've got to introduce those guys TO HeyPaul. I'll bet they could sell a couple dozen Arnine stands. :)
Bid to reopen defunct subway line
It seems to me that if this was put into effect, We'd see the re-opening of the little platform at Bowling Green: the connection would be most useful rush hours, and that's when the 5 runs to Brooklyn.
In fact, it seems to me that service could become a part of the plan right now. Provided you run trains onto the shuttle plat st BG to South Ferry and go in reverse back to the shuttle platform (possible on the active 1 track if you keep t/o's at both ends of platform) during rush hour, and you send 5 trains to the 1/9 track off-peak hours.
and 6 trains would run to South Ferry at nights
I still don't see the point of this, trains couldn't open on both sides for obvious reasons. So for people to walk to the platform, going down stairs, walking under and going back up is already like a block. So why not just do that 2 more times...stupid lazy people. I've done "the walk" from Bowling Green to SF terminal and it REALLY isn't bad...
I don't think they restoring the old shuttle service, which I find would be useless. I think they mean extending the 5 to a rebuilt South Ferry Terminal. If South Ferry is rebuilt into a multi-platform/multi-track station, I don't see any problem with terminating the 5 there, as long as it doesn't interfere with the 1/9. Where a problem could arise is with the 5 going to Brooklyn rush hours, 5 service would actually be cut to that station during rush hours, just when the service is needed more, that is when a shuttle may or may not be necessary. Whether less service is a problem or not may not be relevant, but it is unusual to have less of a service at rush hours that non-rush hours.
In my first sentence in the above post I meant, "I don't think they mean restoring the old shuttle" Sorry I missed that when I reread it before posting.
Actually the shuttle is a secondary consideration, as you say. The shuttle was only maintained because they figured that they had to substitute for service when neither the 5 nor the 6 terminated at South Ferry.
The issue is that, for a Lex to make the station stop at South Ferry, they have to switch to the outer track and then back again to the inner track to return up the Lex. That's how it was done in the old days. That switch and conflict with the 1 is what they avoid by eliminating South Ferry as a live stop on the Lex.
I'd bet if they could clean up the inner loop and disconnect a few arms, they could come up with a few cars for the duty and use the inner loop with just the center doors opening. It'd be MUCH more of a pain to do with the newer cars, but it COULD be done. However I don't think folks from the ferry would be all that pleased about having to change trains.
I'm thinking TROLLEY here ... it'd be a nice touch and a tourist attraction given that the REAL complaint is the walk over to the Lex. Win-win here and would bring at least one trolley back to Manhattan.
The station along the Inner loop of SF now houses MoW or RTO offices and lockers. They'd have to be cleared to repopen the platform.
--Mark
Well then ... that settles it - the solution for Lex riders is a TROLLEY ... and it'd be a NICE touch. MTA subway, bus and streetcar. Has a nice ring to it. Make that two. :)
What about a people mover or 2?
Off topic. :)
I actually think that a short run streetcar from the ferry to Bowling Green would be charming, practical, fast and would also attract tourists back to the general "ground zero" area. But then again, I'm probably smoking the same stuff Bob Diamond's been. Heh. But seriously, if there's no practical way to restore Lex service to the South Ferry station without completely screwing up the railroad, it's time to think outside the tunnel. :)
Today, I had a debate with someone about the New York City Subway. He said that it was crappy. That kinda pissed me off. The New York City Subway system is my favorite, and my dad works for it! I wasn't going to let somebody diss my system.
He brought up some interesting points, Like how the NYC Subways trains are unbearably slow compared to other subways. There were other irrelevant points, the ornate design of Moscow's subway, the size of London's subway (which sounds more like commuter rail the way he described it). I really didn't have anything to say in regards to these things. But, I did come back with a point of my own. New York City Subways are the only subways with regular express service. Which now brings up an important point.
He said something about the Broad St express in Philly and the Evanston Exp in Chi-town. I replied by saying that it's been in the NY Times that NYC has the only REGULAR express service.
Can someone tell me just why the Broad St and Evanston expresses are not considered regular expresses?
First off, London's subway system is a very nice transit system, and it does have a regular express service in the Metropolitan Line - but it is an exception rather than the rule.
Moscow's system is beautiful, but it is also efficient and well-run. New York does have a thing or two to learn from the Russians. That system carries 10 million riders a day, the most in the world.
The Broad Street Subway is (mostly) like any NYC four-track service. The express service terminates south of City Hall, where the line becomes a two-track service (this was how the City chose to extend the line to South Philadelphia. Extending four tracks would have cost too much.
The Broad Street line does operate faster than many NYC lines, at 55 mph MAS (this is not an average speed including stops) for the express. The Market-Frankford line operates "express" between 15th street and 30th Street station, in that trolley cars serve as the "local" for the 19th street and 22 St stops.
The BSS express operates at 62 mph (100kph or the design limit of the rolling stock) for a good portion of its run. When was the last time an NYC Subway car reached its design limit? The MFL reaches speeds of 50 mph between stops as short as 6 blocks (.6 miles) appart.
The NYC subways are slow, and no one seems to think that is a problem. To me, the locals have to get up to 30 mph between stops, and the express trains up to 40. That is comparable to a motor vehicle hitting lights or a local street (30) or four lane arterial. Forget about a motor vehicle on a highway.
The system is being slowed to far less than that. The Broadway Local (Manhattan) averages just 11 miles per hour including stops.
"The system is being slowed to far less than that. The Broadway Local (Manhattan) averages just 11 miles per hour including stops."
They capped the speed limit to 50 MPH, which trains almost never reach, due to signals being unable to handle higher speeds. There are a lot more slow speed orders/timers and some trains kind of slow down after 25 MPH (R44,R46 and R68, R68A's are the best of all the 75' footers):
Best expresses are the IRT trunk lines in Manhattan, the Flushing express and the Brighton express w/o much or any slow speed orders
A: between Utica Av & Euclid Av
E: between 71 Av and Sutphin Blvd(weekdays). They should just make some F's express again via Hillside. The switch that the E goes through at Briarwood makes it useless and it doesn't zip through 75 Av most of the time
4 Av line N/W: between Pacific and 36 St SB stays constant at around 25-30 mph
4: the Brooklyn portion from Frankiln(sometimes Borough Hall) to Utica Av
5: Excellent speed on the Bronx thru express a real time saver but a lot of that time is lost because it is constantly held at E 180 for 2 trains
The fastest 3 express runs in the system in my opion are the following.
1. Hillside Express - Eastbound between Van Wyck Ave and Parsons Blvd. Although this is not permanent revenue service anymore the F train would zip through. Felt like about 50mph.
2. Fulton St Exp - Westbound between Bway ENY and Utica. A train would Fly, I mean fly especially when the R40 Slants were on there. But now there is a timer befroe you enter Ralph Ave that slows the A down. This might be faster than #1.
3. Flushing Exp - Eastbound between Woodside Ave and Junction Blvd. Not sure how fast, but I had to hold on to the Straphanger the train rocked side to side. Felt like about 45
Frank D
Everyone forgets about the West Side IRT -- specifically, SB approaching 50th, just before the sequence of timers.
As I've reported here before, I was on a 5 train (yes, a 5 train) that hit 50 there, according to the speedometer in the T/O's cab. Typical speeds are 46-47. That's faster than anything I've seen except through some river tubes and maybe on the 4th Avenue BMT express and the East Side IRT express. (I'm not claiming that my experiences are either complete or typical.)
In the local category, the 1/9 picks up good speed heading NB into 125th and the 6 picks up good speed heading NB into 96th.
I agree. Except that I say your experiences ARE complete AND typical! You don't have to be all PC around here. Both you and I and most other people here know that you've been riding the subway competitively for enough years that you are qualified to make statements about how things are.
--Brian
No, I haven't watched speedometers along every section of track, and even where I have, we all know how inaccurate subway speedometers can be. Even when I do get an accurate reading, it may be with a slow T/O.
You know, it's discredited a lot, but the CPW run northbound still maintains pretty good speed, around 40mph from the times I observed. a number of express runs can do over 40 sustained.
The 60th st tube has had trains clocked at over 60, hasn't it?
The NYC subways are slow, and no one seems to think that is a problem...
Shows some fuzzy thinking.
The trains are approximately take approximately 10% longer to complete runs than they once did. To provide the same level of service requires 10% more rolling stock. What is the bill for additional rolling stock and the maintenance thereof?
I once thought the Paris system was tops, and people love it, and the stations are well-cared for, nice, and never more than four blocks away. But the trains STOP so much. It doesn't matter how FAST a train goes; it matters how well it's routed, and how many express options you have. NOTHING beats NYT in my own experience (which doesn't include Moscow, for example).
And considering how far it's come back since I first used it, it's a miracle. Your pal should try riding around San Fransisco for comparison. I got old trying to get from BART to Muni to the cable cars to the bus.
The Evanston Express ("Skokie Swift")is part-time only. Maybe the NYT's meant full-time?
Not all of NYCT's trains are full-time expresses (of course, how do you compare a 24-hour system to one which only operates 19 or 20 hours out of 24, like Washington Metrorail or SEPTA?)
The Evanston Express runs rush hours only.
NYC has only two rush hour-only express runs, on the 5 and D in the Bronx.
It has half-day (one rush hour and half of a midday) express runs, inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon, on the 6, 7, and J/Z.
It has express runs that operate in both directions pretty much all day (but not night) on weekdays on the Q (Brooklyn) and W.
It has express runs that operate in both directions pretty much all day (but not night) all week on the 2/3 (Manhattan), 4/5 (Manhattan and Brooklyn), A, and E (Queens).
It has express runs that operate all times on the D (Manhattan), F (Queens), and Q (Manhattan).
And it has additional express tracks on a number of other lines that could be used in the future.
How many other systems have such an extensive system of express services?
Noted, and agreed.
Philadelphia's Broad Street line does compare favorably with the best of NY's 4-track services (except that there is no subway service from 1AM-5AM) and the Market-Frankford line compares favorably to the service pattern on the J/Z.
None. NYC is totally unique in that aspect. Some other systems may have a few NYC-type lines here and there, but not the amount that NY has.
Yes, but what city has the need for such a system? New York is pretty much alone in terms of population density, at least in North America. Most cities are setup for a more commuter rail style service, not 6 or 7 four track trunklines operating at capacity. In terms of commuter rail, New York is oddly lacking. Before I get the MTA RR over the head, lemme explain. Chicago is quite a bit smaller than NYC, yet it's commuter rail system is almost of the same caliber, same thing for LA, whose Metrolink is coming along very well. For all the scale-up between the two cities, New York gains little from it's commuter system. Not only that, but LA's is nearly brand new, and yet is thriving on what it's can grab off the freeways, all while LIRR and MN lose passengers to the roads, both of those are well established commuter systems with well established routes and even their own ROW, and yet they can't keep the pax coming back.
And the NYC 4 track local express system really a good use of capital? I would think that a 2 track tunnel down one street and another 2 track tunnel down another street would equal the TPH of any 4 track tunnel, and the two 2 track tunnels will reach a wider populace, and offer more door to door connections. Everybody on this board is always saying that expresses save no time over locals, so do you even need the expresses? It's too bad that the FRA is so anal, otherwise you could run the expresses from like Rockaway, Flushing, and Pelham Bay down the heavy rail tracks through manhatten, keeping the long distance commuters together, and leaving the greater number of Manhatten Trunk lines to the local riders in manhatten and the immediate vicinity.
One final thing, there is one place that new york will never touch Philadelphia, or nearly any other city for that matter, and that is in variety. Philadelphia has such a variety of ways to get from point A to point B that at times it boggles the mind. We have light rail trolleys in a center city tunnel; heavy rail subways, express service on one; Trackless Trolleys (well we did, they may come back, and then again, pigs may fly out of my butt); a Third Rail using Light Rail system, and finally a very extensive commuter system, but I must admit that it is suffering every bit as much as the MTA's RRs are. New York is extremely bland in terms of it's railfan oppertunities, there it's Third Rail, Third Rail, Third Rail! The only catenary runs in one side, out the other.
To railfan in New York you almost need to be a foamer, certainly when compared to any rail-layperson off the street, most of the people on this board are foamers, yet amongst ourselves we raise just a few and call them foamers, all while debating the differece in windows between an R-21 and R-22. And that is one thing going for New York, it certainly is a challenge to railfan, an openly hostile location to watch trains, few sweeping vistas, copius amounts of tunnel, and a selection of rolling stock that is remarkably subtle in changes, combine to make the city very demanding on it's railfans.
And yet, through it all, there are the Subtalkers, especially the NY Resident Subtalkers,for whom the NYCT subway is not a curiosity, but rather a method of getting from point a to point b on a daily basis, and yet somehow, through all the GOs, delays and sometimes seeming idiocy of the TA and the NYC city government, manage to still be facinated by their subway system, enough at least to come here on a regular basis to express their opinions.
Heres to you NYC subtalkers, may few inconvinent GO's be in your future.
There are a few reasons a four-track service is better than a pair of two-track services: Speed. (The express usually is faster; the question is whether it's worth waiting for it if a local comes first.) Passenger flexibility. (A passenger can opt to take whichever comes first, thereby shortening his wait time.) Operational flexibility. (If a train dies on one of the tracks, trains behind it can switch to the other. If there's a long delay in local service, an express can be switched over to fill in.) Cost. (A single four-track line is cheaper to build and maintain than two separate two-track lines, and half as many stations need to be staffed.) Transfers. (The more distinct lines there are, the harder it becomes to institute adequate transfer opportunities. Already the NYC system has some trouble here.)
You must be from Philadelphia: you define variety in terms of how power is passed to the car. We have variety of other sorts. We have variety in rolling stock (more than you acknowledge). We have variety in station design. We have variety in line type.
We also have complex interlockings, which interest me most of all. I will never tire of standing at the window passing through DeKalb.
Your premise is interesting, but unfortunately is supported by a few important inaccuracies.
"In terms of commuter rail, New York is oddly lacking. Before I get the MTA RR over the head, lemme explain. Chicago is quite a bit smaller than NYC, yet it's commuter rail system is almost of the same caliber, same thing for LA, whose Metrolink is coming along very well."
Wrong. Chicago's RTA system is very impressive, but it is sized proportionally to its audience. MTA's system is larger and more comprehensive, and offers electric service (environmental and operational advantages) that RTA does not. RTA is very good; but MTA is still better, in a class of its own.
Metrolink is nice, and it's gratifying to see people using it. It had the most to grow, since it started with zero. But a look at Los Angeles' freeways will tell you that it doesn't even begin to take loads off of freeway lanes. It's a great start, and I applaud it, but any comparison to even just the LIRR is laughable.
"New York gains little from it's commuter system."
I wouldn't call 600,000 daily commuters "little." (counting LIRR, NJT, MetroNorth.) In fact, commuter rail + commuter bus in NY carries almost as many passengers in NY as SEPTA carries in all of its modalities combined.
"Not only that, but LA's is nearly brand new, and yet is thriving on what it's can grab off the freeways, all while LIRR and MN lose passengers to the roads,"
No, they don't. It's true that LIRR ridership declined 9% last year, but the LIRR is more sensitivbe to changes in the economy (and 9/11) than the subway is, because of its audience (and one year does not make a trend) People bitch and moan on both rail and road but by and large, they stickto what's more convenient. And on the whole, LIRR offers a 95% on-time rate, which is more convenient than sitting on the LIE in the morning. LIRR does need to improve, though.
"both of those are well established commuter systems with well established routes and even their own ROW, and yet they can't keep the pax coming back."
Not supported by the facts, though LIRR does have to ensure that last year does not create a trend.
"I would think that a 2 track tunnel down one street and another 2 track tunnel down another street would equal the TPH of any 4 track tunnel, and the two 2 track tunnels will reach a wider populace, and offer more door to door connections."
Look at Manhattan's geography, and Brooklyn's geography, and rethink your post. You may have a point in the Bronx. Queens? You need more of everything there.
"One final thing, there is one place that new york will never touch Philadelphia, or nearly any other city for that matter, and that is in variety. Philadelphia has such a variety of ways to get from point A to point B that at times it boggles the mind. We have light rail trolleys in a center city tunnel; heavy rail subways, express service on one; Trackless Trolleys (well we did, they may come back, and then again, pigs may fly out of my butt); a Third Rail using Light Rail system,"
That's a plus for railfans; 99% of the riding public does not give a crap about that. The fact is, getting from one place to another in Philly requires more transfers, more use of buses, takes longer, and is more expensive.
Of course it still blows Los Angeles away (not even a contest)
"and finally a very extensive commuter system, but I must admit that it is suffering every bit as much as the MTA's RRs are."
SEPTA's Regional Rail is, route-wise, very nice, but it doesn't hold a candle to MTA in terms of reach of service, frequency of service, or accessibility. Most of the LIRR is ADA-compliant; 90% of SEPTA Regional Rail is not.
You need to separate the rail buff attributes from passenger service attributes. They really don't overlap as much as youthink they do. Fortunately, most policy makers understand the difference..
The Evanston Express ("Skokie Swift")
The Evanston Express (Purple Line) stops at Howard and terminates at Linden. The Skokie Swift (Yellow Line) shuttles between Howard and Skokie.
I visited Chicago for a week last year to attend some Computer training and I rode the Purple Line Evanston Express. Once it got past Wrigley Field Station (Sheridan), it Flew all the way up to Howard. A wierd Express configuration. The express tracks are the outer tracks and the local tracks and station are the inner with island platforms.
Frank D
Not as silly as the configuration of the Metropolitan Line in London at Moor Park station. It looks like a regular four track station with two island platforms, but the tracks are: Down Fast, Up Fast, Down Local, Up Local.
Thats like the Long Island Railroad, when the Far Rockaway/Long Beach Branch meets up with the Babylon/Montauk/W. Hempstead Branch right after Laurelton station. That happened because of dual railroads building tracks out there.
Frank D
Actually this configuration (the NY equivalent would be downtown express, uptown express, downtown local, uptown local, reading from west to east) is probably the commonest arrangement on four-terack railways in the UK. The Midland Mainline/Thameslink route between London and Bedford is arrannged that way, and has been ever since it was built by the Midland Railway in the first place, as far as I know.
The LIRR has a similar configuration visible at Valley Stream station.
No, he was right. Except for its diversity the NYC subway IS crapy and with the comming of transverse cabs it will loose any redeeming value it still had. The deferred maintainence of the 1970's has taken its toll and the system is in an extreme state of decay. I am not saying that the MTA is currently going a bad job, in fact they are doing the best job they can. The problem is that much of the system needs to be rebuilt and restored and that would cost billions and billions of dollars. Until then, NYC will suffer with express trains that average 22 mph and an infrastructure that looks just about ready to give up the ghost.
If you want an idea of what the NYCS SHOULD be like, hop on over to PATH. The ride is smooth even on the most severe turns, the trains accelerate quickly and run for prolonged periods at speeds ranging from 40 to 55 mph and the system is generally clean.
If you want more examples check out the SEPTA subways, Boston subways and the Toronto TTC. All of these systems have similar ages, but provide a much higher level of service.
As I said before, the problem is that the NYCS is a giant behemouth that has been ground down under its sheer size and service demands. The whole system needs a complete overhaul, but unless they discover a giant oil field under Brooklyn, this ain't happening soon.
"If you want an idea of what the NYCS SHOULD be like, hop on over to PATH. The ride is smooth even on the most severe turns, the trains accelerate quickly and run for prolonged periods at speeds ranging from 40 to 55 mph and the system is generally clean."
I still think you must be riding a different PATH system from the rest of us. Yes it goes fast from Newark to Journal Square, but otherwise it's very comparable to NYCT. I recently rode from 14th to Pavonia, and it only went decently fast for about half the tube under the river, and otherwise there were go-slow signs everywhere. The NYCT 60th St tunnel does better.
NYCT slowdowns are not due to decay. They are due to an overriding fear of a billion dollar lawsuit if by some screwup a train hits another train. They put in timers to prevent that, not because the system can't handle faster speeds.
I still think you must be riding a different PATH system from the rest of us. Yes it goes fast from Newark to Journal Square, but otherwise it's very comparable to NYCT.
Comparing PATH's run from Newark to Journal Square is like saying New York's system is like the run out to Rockaway!
Not that I feel Path is run bad, but how can a small, few station system compare to NYC's 400+ station system.
How in the world do you compare a small system like the PATH to the New York City subway system? People don't realize that we have the largest system in the world so of course there's more expenses with 400+ stations, 20+ lines plus the shuttle, rolling stock (the Bombardier R142 cars was a $900 million dollar waste of investment). They should really take a look at how much they pay for subway cars since they seem to invest so much $$ for sub-quality cars like the Bomb-Badier cars. Its full of glitches and breakdowns(if I am wrong correct me. Thanx.) That's part of the problem plus overpaid execs and there's more but I'll stop here.
How in the world do you compare a small system like the PATH to the New York City subway system? People don't realize that we have the largest system in the world so of course there's more expenses with 400+ stations, 20+ lines plus the shuttle, rolling stock (the Bombardier R142 cars was a $900 million dollar waste of investment). They should really take a look at how much they pay for subway cars since they seem to invest so much $$ for sub-quality cars like the Bomb-Badier cars. Its full of glitches and breakdowns(if I am wrong correct me. Thanx.) That's part of the problem plus overpaid execs and there's more but I'll stop here.
Some calm is in order here. Clearly the NY system is the most comprehensive in the US. A visit to http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm
will however point up a different perspective--passengers per route mile ranking.
While I certainly love the gorgeous mosaics, on a daily basis even the ugly BART stations will do. And it IS TRUE that today's NY system is overall much slower than when I lived there in the late 60's. We can debate the rationale but the fact is slower trains carry fewer people per employee hour--a major cost increase.
We can debate the rationale but the fact is slower trains carry fewer people per employee hour--a major cost increase.
Actually, NYC Subway has more of it's fare supporting costs than any other American system. Go figure.
better recovery ratio notwithstanding, if the trains ran faster, the "eight hours" would cover more distance and the same # of cars could provide more TPH thus more service.
I prefer passengers per station, or passengers per train as a measure of how busy a system is. If you took a subway system, doubled the distance between stations so as to double the route mileage, but (1) without building any new stations, (2) running the same number of trains as before, but faster, and (3) keeping the number of journeys the same, then the system would appear to be half as busy according to the passengers per mile statistic, but the trains would be just as full, and the stations just as overloaded!
Max, see this post about why I think per mile rankings are better. Average distance affects crowding at stations, like how many trains can be run to relieve the crowding.
Sorry, wrong part of the thread: my last message should have gone here!
I'm not sure I quite see the argument here. If you are running a train every two minutes (which is about the maximum the London Underground can cope with) then I don't see how reducing the distance between a pair of stations can increase the number of trains.
Put it another way, if you have a train with 500 people on it, who travel the length of a two-station metro system with two miles between the stations, why is this half as busy as a two-station metro with one mile between the stations?
I guess that if you really wanted to do it this on a distance basis, it would be best to divide the total passenger mileage (average length of journey x number of journeys) by the total route miles. This would iron out the worst of the statistical nasties, and prevent undeveloped systems without deep suburban penetration from appearing to be artificially busy. Think about a NYC subway system where all lines ended at the first station after Manhatten, and these railheads were served by trams, buses, park & ride etc. Alternatively, suppose the London Underground system closed beyond fare zone 2 and was entirely fed by separate suburban rail services. That would push the systems up the rankings.
Look at it like this: you have a two station line that is one mile long. Trains run at 30 mph, and you have two trains to create a two minute headway. That means you have 720 trains per day.
Now, let’s say the line is two miles long and the speed is the same. If you keep the same two trains, the headway now doubles to four minutes, or 360 trains per day.
So, just because of a change in length of the line, the amount of trains per day has decreased, thus the intensity of the line is less than the shorter line. Of course, you have other factors like ridership, speed and headway, but this shows that distance also plays a role when the rest is equal.
Yes, but because you are keeping everything else equal, the 4-minute headway trains are now twice as fill as the 2-minute headway trains!
That's true. But the only way to prove that soemthing is a factor is you have control variables and independant variables, it's part of the scientific method (alright, I KNEW that BS would come in handy one day!). You have to make the rest constant to show that distance must be taken into account.
Plus, the tracks are now not as intensely used, so this should definately be taken into consideration.
Funny you should say that, but this is what I do for a living:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415165652/qid=1035275831/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/202-9866234-0645459
The problem here is not manipulating independent variables, the problem is that we cannot agree on how to measure what we want to measure.
For example, suppose we want to try some sort of innovation that will increase how busy a metro system is (e.g. a station renovation program). Until we can agree on a measure of how busy a system is, our dependent variable, we cannot answer the question.
I think that the problem here is the different fare systems in use. For NYC subway users, two passengers = twice as much fare as one passenger, no matter what the distance. In the UK, payment tends to be by distance, so that two passengers taking short journeys = the same fare (or less) than one passenger taking a long journey. This is why I think that the distance passengers travel is essential in all calculations of how busy a system is.
The suburban penetration issue is also important. Big systems with low passengers-per-mile counts should not be inferior to smaller systems with high passengers-per-mile counts. Manhatten by itself would probably be one of the largest metro systems in the world.
NYCT slowdowns are not due to decay. They are due to an overriding fear of a billion dollar lawsuit if by some screwup a train hits another train. They put in timers to prevent that, not because the system can't handle faster speeds.
So, NYCT has bad lawyers too. :-)
The reason for the timers is that the cars have poorly performing emergency brakes. NYCT has resisted suggestions that they be improved. Rather than improve them, they decided to slow down all the trains.
The poorly performing brakes were by design also - the older cars (like the Arnines) had GOOD BIE capability. Dump one, and they'd toss the geese right on the floor and stop on a dime. MORE lawsuits.
WEEEEEEE look at me ma, I'm Superman! :)
My father tells me of when he was a C/R they could stop on a dime.
Now is it me, or does it seem like the 143s however take WAY too long to come to a stop? I was on one too weeks ago and even a T/O with me said "wow, took a long time to stop".
The brickwall stops and the skreeking of the old cast iron shoes apparently were too much for the adminiswigs and they replaced them with what I call "Buster Brown shoes" (composites) and they're mushy (but quiet and don't "grab") at times. But I'll say one thing for the 143's ... you can almost charge them to the zebras and pull a full serve and it'll come to a smooth stop. I was amused by that, did it once ... heh.
But yeah, compared to what I was used to 30 years ago, they ARE slow. Fortunately, got to grab some cast iron shoes once again on the Arnine at Branford on Sunday and it was NICE feeling "real" brake shoes again. :)
The modification to the emergency brakes that the TA has resited does not involve the composite shoes.
"NYCT slowdowns are not due to decay. They are due to an overriding fear of a billion dollar lawsuit if by some screwup a train hits another train. They put in timers to prevent that, not because the system can't handle faster speeds."
Sadly this is true. All about the lawsuits. Too much stuff has happened and they decided they had to cut their losses somehow.
To add to timers:
WD's for switches to restrict speed, although IMO we need more of this (but in a better form). How many of you have gone flying south of W4 on an F or V when a train hits the switch? (Or in my case, hit your jewels on the console in the cab, OUCH! learned my lesosn there)
Blind trips to prevent a train sideswiping another (Queens Plaza, Canal/8th).
Also timers in stations to prevent trains from going where they're not supposed to (like L trains to 10th Ave).
It may make the system slow and unbearable, but at least you're alive to complain about it too :).
"The whole system needs a complete overhaul, but unless they discover a giant oil field under Brooklyn, this ain't happening soon. "
How would a gaint oilfield in Brooklyn help? Some big rich oil company will get richer, not the city of New York.
:( Elias
Easy ... settling the environmental impact thingy and getting a permit would require that the wells be drilled horizontally from Staten Island and lower Manhattan to Brooklyn, much like the proposed ANWR drilling arrrangements. Then, when the wellheads are abandoned, they'd require the cleanup to lay track, and install cement. City politicos can pull amazing little tricks to dump the bill on someone else. :)
How would a gaint oilfield in Brooklyn help? Some big rich oil company will get richer, not the city of New York.
Actually, 1199 would get the riches.
Transverse cabs are important only to operating crews and railfans. The average passenger doesn't give a rat's posterior about transverse cabs.
David
Except for its diversity the NYC subway IS crapy and with the comming of transverse cabs it will loose any redeeming value it still had. The deferred maintainence of the 1970's has taken its toll and the system is in an extreme state of decay. I am not saying that the MTA is currently going a bad job, in fact they are doing the best job they can. The problem is that much of the system needs to be rebuilt and restored and that would cost billions and billions of dollars. Until then, NYC will suffer with express trains that average 22 mph and an infrastructure that looks just about ready to give up the ghost.
New York's infrastructure isn't so bad. It is the speed, or the lack thereof, that's the real problem. I'm finding it more and more annoying, the way trains creep along at a glacial pace.
Except for its diversity the NYC subway IS crapy and with the comming of transverse cabs it will loose any redeeming value it still had.
This makes it crappy... how? If anything, this makes it better: the TA is moving into the future.
The deferred maintainence of the 1970's has taken its toll and the system is in an extreme state of decay.
...The system is not presently in an extreme state of decay. In fact, it is in pretty good condition, and continues to improve. They're already upgrading to test CBTC. I'd hardly say that's decay.
The problem is that much of the system needs to be rebuilt and restored and that would cost billions and billions of dollars. Until then, NYC will suffer with express trains that average 22 mph and an infrastructure that looks just about ready to give up the ghost.
From what I understand, the NYC subway is in better shape than some other systems, like part of the blue line in Chicago. The maintenance of the system also has nothing to do with the speed of trains. Hasn't it been said here that N trains reach 60mph in the 60th st tunnel?
If you want an idea of what the NYCS SHOULD be like, hop on over to PATH. The ride is smooth even on the most severe turns, the trains accelerate quickly and run for prolonged periods at speeds ranging from 40 to 55 mph and the system is generally clean.
Typical Jerseyan propaganda. PATH is a 'nice little system', but it will never compare to NYC Subway. If you want an idea of smooth ON the NYC subway, ride the R-142. Funny how you dissed the cars that have the smoothest ride.
As I said before, the problem is that the NYCS is a giant behemouth that has been ground down under its sheer size and service demands.
Maybe in the 70's, but today it is not "ground down". True, some of the stations are ready for an overhaul, but none of them are badly worn out.
...The system is not presently in an extreme state of decay. In fact, it is in pretty good condition, and continues to improve. They're already upgrading to test CBTC. I'd hardly say that's decay.
That's just a small part of the infrastructure. The real problem is that the whole trackbed needs replacing. This includes a new footing, new ties and new drainage, etc. PATCO was built in 1968 and it is currently spending 100 million to rehab its entire system which I might add was rapidly going down the tubes due to "cost containment". The NYC Subway is 3 times as old as PATCO and for many of those years maintainence was shotty at best.
Pardon me for leaping in, but NYCT has replaced every inch of the subway dozens and dozens of times over its 100 years. The complaints you have are the result of LAWYERS running the railroad ... I'm surprised they don't have dispatchers swearing out oaths to each motorperson before they open up the cab (sign here) ... :)
The real problem is that the whole trackbed needs replacing.
Now I know that's BS. My dad did so much overtime on track pours when he was a supervisor that he made a pretty decent salary. I've also seen the replacement of switches.
Speed of trains has nothing to do with the 'condition of the roadbed', but rather the number of timers in the insufficient signal system. There are two options: space the signals more (or make it two blocks between trains), or improve the brakes on trains. I like option two better.
That's just a small part of the infrastructure. The real problem is that the whole trackbed needs replacing
Where do you get that the "whole" roadbed needs replacing? Since the 1980's hundreds of miles of track, ties, etc has been replaced, all over the system. In some spots it has even been replaced twice over since the 70's and 80's. And you mentioned all the stations need rehabs. Do you ever ride the NY subway? What do you call what has been going on/is going on at (to name just a few)Many of these are in progress or have been done in the last 10 years (so that doesn't even include stations that have been done a bit more than 10 years ago):
66th-Broadway
33rd-Lex
81st-CPW
18th-7th
28th-7th
Canal-7th
Prince-BWy
8th-Bwy
Canal-(Bwy-7th)
23rd-Bwy
28th-Bwy
Union Square Complex
Time Square Complex
Lorimer
Church-Nostrand
Flatbush
Atlantic Complex
Canal Complex
5th Ave
Woodhaven
Lorimer
Hewes
Kosiouscko
Gates
Herald Square
Rector-Bwy
Rector-(Bwy-7th)
Utica (Eastern Pkwy)
Utica-Fulton
Stillwell-Coney Island
I'm going to stop there just because this post would get insane if I continued. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and stations I could think of just off the top of my head. The list would probably cover half the stations in the system if I pulled out a map. And many of the other half are in acceptable condidition (not bad-not good), until they get around to it. I would say less than 1/8th of the stations in the system are in shambles. 1/8 of the 467 stations is about 57 stations. I think you would have trouble coming up with 57 stations in total shambles or in totally unacceptable condition.
I agree with you about the condition of the stations and system in general. Out of the 20 or so rail systems I've ridden in four countries, NYCT has the least attractive, most run down looking stations. They look like just an afterthought when the when the tunnels were built. You don't "enter" any mainline local station in Manhattan, you just come up a platform in a tunnel. There are no tunnel portals or anything that architectually connects the two sides of a local station on a four-track line. Even the rehabbed stations look poor in comparision to systems like London. Station entrances are just holes in the ground with stairs. The rolling stock feels like it's going to fall apart; they just don't feel as solid as other systems.
I'm not saying any of this is the case in reality, but NYCT PROJECTS a feeling of crappiness. But imagine being a tourist from outside the US, thinking how great stuff must be in NYC, the biggest city in the nation, only to find yourself riding a subway that is worse looking than anything found in a third world country.
While I grant the NY system always seem grubbier, the lack of "extra" architectue doesn't bother me. In fact, I prefer the IRT/BMT 'hole in the ground' side of the tunnel style. Living here in the SF area, I am daily remindeof the immense $$ waste at BART where stations have large above ground structures wasting valuable land. Mind you on a good day BART's entire ridership is 60% of Times Square alone, so dirt doesn't pile up quite as fast.
A balance needs to be struck with making a station look good and over-doing it. People aren't going to ride an ugly subway, so BART was pretty much forced to make overly done stations to attract riders. NYC was more used to it, so they can get away with unattractive stations.
I beg to differ. The most used stations (surprise, not) are in the CBD's where they are the most NY like stairwells only at street level (exception the insanely stupid rotunda at Berkeley main ruining both the station layout and the streetscape to no advantage IMHO) My least favorite is the Glen Park station where a huge high ceilinged "head house" was built instead of putting eberything below grade and leaving the surface for commercial developement. North Berkeley is another dumb design.
I'm afraid I must disagree.
The trend in "modern" subway systems is spaceous stations. WMATA comes to mind (sorry, I've never been to Atlanta): the stations are cavernous. Each station has a vast expanse of wall and ceiling available for good use. So what's done with them? Nothing! Bare concrete. For those who haven't become experts in waffles, they're all the same. What a waste of an amazing resource!
NYC stations are generally much smaller, but just look at the intricate tilework on the wall. A few examples:
NYC may not have many large stations, but it has true artwork, on a human scale, with attention to detail. It takes attention to detail to notice it.
The subway is a part of daily life for millions of New Yorkers. It's only natural that most subway entrances are simple staircases on the street.
We do have a few grand stations deep beneath Washington Heights. Their space isn't put to waste.
EXCELLENT POST! I tried to explain that in words in my post earlier today, but there is nothing better than visualization to try to prove a point. After viewing those strong photos (only a small sample, for anyone familiar with the system), I don't think anyone can say NYC subway stations are boring, decrepit, or are inferior to other system's stations. Some systems may have newer stations, but when NY does a rehab (at least in the last few years) there is nothing uninteresting about the results. Even some of the older unrehabbed stations are very intricate, and beautiful, even if repair is needed on them. They will get to it.
You can take all the other more modern sytstems, with their "Archer Ave Extension" look. I'll stick with the NY beauties as my opinion of the best stations. (Hey Even Chambers Street on the Nassau line, although in shambles, is very interesting, and one day will be an amazing station once again).
IMO, even the simple IND stations look a lot better than stations on the Arche Ave. Extension and pictures from other systems on this site (I'll admit, I haven't been abroad though, so I can't say firsthand). The tile letters on the wall have an 'artsy' quality to them.
It would be nice if they restore the chandeliers at Chambers/Nassau, even as just decorative fixtures, but I doubt that will happen.
And I'm hoping they don't screw DeKalb Ave. up too much.
It would be nice if they restore the chandeliers at Chambers/Nassau, even as just decorative fixtures, but I doubt that will happen.
Yeah, I really like the Nassau/Chambers station. It always amazes me (as someone else also mentioned) that they allowed a station so close to City Hall deteriorate to that extent. Part of the problem probably is that the station is so large. It will take a lot of money to refurbish it, and unfortunately it is not an extremely high use station. But if they ever do restore it, it will be an amazing station - and the chandeliers a nice touch.
As a sidenote to comment on the IND stations you mentioned, I always liked the simple look of the IND stations also. A design that simple (and they do have mosaic tablets also) can work really well.
You'll get no arguement from me about the WMATA, I posted before that it gets repetitive.
But what about NYC stations at whole? Sure, there are great pieces of art, when you look at an entire station, we're not exactly talking about Moscow. I'm stepping into David Cole's territory, but how does the architecture of the station complement the great pieces of art? You go from seeing the good looking 66 St signs to staring through a dark segment of tunnel and barely seeing the opposite platform thru a dirty mass of I-beams. That isn't exactly the most attractive thing in the world.
It entirely possible to have small station with everything looking good and still be on a human scale. Some examples here, here and here. I need to get a photo of the nude women sculptures on MARTA :-)
Don't get me wrong, I actually love the grittiness and dirtiness of the NYC subway, but it's far from being an attractive system.
Thanks for the pictures, but I'm afraid I don't see anything terribly exciting. Just my opinion, but those stations look pretty bland to me, with a bit of color to liven them up. I don't see the detailed artwork we have here. (And when you complain it's difficult to see across four tracks in NYC, I'm afraid two-track stations elsewhere aren't the proper points of comparison.)
I agree that NYC station architecture is nothing to write home about -- but that's because the NYC system was built in an era when transit systems didn't have to build palaces to draw attention to themselves. A simple cut-and-cover system with most platforms one level below the street is cheap to build and easy to use. I use the deep 63/Lex station on occasion, and it takes forever and a day to get to the platforms. The subway is primarily a mode of conveyance, not an art museum.
"Thanks for the pictures, but I'm afraid I don't see anything terribly exciting. Just my opinion, but those stations look pretty bland to me, with a bit of color to liven them up. I don't see the detailed artwork we have here. (And when you complain it's difficult to see across four tracks in NYC, I'm afraid two-track stations elsewhere aren't the proper points of comparison.)"
MARTA stations are modern, clean designs with pleasant "lines" to them. Thereis no intricate artwork per se, but the stations are in themselves artistically tasteful. I rode MARTA for six months, living 3 blocks from Decatur station (nicely done, with skylights and a business center on top of it.)
I think detailed artwork is a matter of personal opinion, so there is no point in arguing about that, I'm big into vivid colors myself. But, browse through the Atlant apage of here, I took a few photos of artwork on MARTA, but not many. I love MARTA because of the good artwork in there, so next time I go to take pictures, I'll try to get more art. :-) Check out this page on the Sao Paulo Metro web site, they have lots of good artwork too, a lot a detailed stuff you like.
You say that the subway was built in an era where transit systems didn't have to build palaces to draw attention to themselves. But subways like London and Paris were built around the same time. They have stations, while not complex looking, but are very attractive. The Sub-surface lines in London are old looking, but when a train enters a station, you don't feel like you're still in the tunnel. And Paris has their famous subway entrance designs. Moscow was also built in the first half of the last century, but they were making a political statement with their system, so I can't really use them as a comparision. To the IRT's credit, they also had a good entrance design, plus looking at 1904 photos of the stations, you can tell they put a lot of work into details, like the wood trim. However, it seems, the design couldn't withstand the test of time, and evn rehabbed stations with the original look don't seem as good as they once were.
To add to what you said...forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original City Hall IRT station pretty impressive architecturally?
Mark
Yes, and it still is. It's pretty impossible to mess that station up. Iamgine if the IRT's design philosoply was used fort he entire subway, it would be quite impressive. Of course, the system would be way smaller because it would cost way too much to do it for everything. I guess NYC chose quantity over quality.
Imgine if the IRT's design philosoply was used fort he entire subway, it would be quite impressive. Of course, the system would be way smaller because it would cost way too much to do it for everything. I guess NYC chose quantity over quality.
Well, while I disagree that the IRT did not choose quality, as I believe a lot of effort and money was put into the detail and construction of many of the Contract One stations. (Alot of which has been lost over time due to platform extensions, so-called renovations, loss of the skylights and vault lighting, etc), your last sentence seems to be the most important in the scheme of things. And while I still disagree that NYC stations are unimpressive or uninteresting, the quantity, where, the subway goes is still the most inportant aspect of a transportation system - more important than station design, even if I like NYC's various station designs anyway.
Both the IRT and BMT put some thought to the designs of their stations -- within limits. Parsons (correct) decision to follow the Budapest model and put his stations just below the surface to allow easy access to the street meant you were going to have stations with low ceilings and with a lot of I beams to support the street, in a way the valuted roof stations in the deeper tunnels, such as the IRT in Washington Heights or even Grand Central on the 7 and 53rd-Lex on the E/V, don't have. The IND went for a far blander design, with tile color changes based on station location, and of course, given the chance to do something different with the vaulted roof at 53rd and Lex, the city came up with the ugliest-looking subway station on the planet.
But given the design limitations and the state of the technology 98 years ago, the IRT put quite a lot of thought and planning into what the Contract 1 stations would look like. The BMT's Vickers tiling also is unique for all its original stations, though the MTA's 1970 renovations on the Broadway-Fouth Ave. line removed much of that from view for a generation, and the BMT did try to do some extra things with stations it considered its "showplace" stops, like Times Square or Chambers Street (though you wouldn't believe it from looking at Chambers now).
WMATA already has had to paint some of their concrete waffles to hide the water damage due to seepage over the years (Federal Triangle on the Orange/Blue line had major seepage/rust stain problems on the walls as early as 1979). For anyone around in the late 21st Century, it will be interesting to see how well the late 20th Century station designs hold up after 100 years of wear and tear.
WMATA already has had to paint some of their concrete waffles to hide the water damage due to seepage over the years (Federal Triangle on the Orange/Blue line had major seepage/rust stain problems on the walls as early as 1979). For anyone around in the late 21st Century, it will be interesting to see how well the late 20th Century station designs hold up after 100 years of wear and tear.
Eventually, systems with conrete showing in their stations will eventually wind up with an ugly painted concrete look. Those stations will not look as good as many of NY's 80+ year old unrehabed stations when they turn that age (they will probably need many renovations before turning that age anyway). The tiles at many stations in NY did hold up well after 3/4 of a century and longer. For example, the BMT Canarsie line has much of it's original tilework, and considering how old they are (late 1920's), I think they held up great. Sure, some of the stations show a little wear, but they still look great even though many of the stations on the line have not been rehabed yet. I think the Canarsie line has some of the nicest mosaics in the system. The BMT did put a lot of thought into the station design. And Broadway was mentioned. The mosaics on that line are also very attractive, and once again look great, even after being covered for over 30 years.
God, those stations suck like crap. They remind me of the Archer Avenue extension stations. Bland. Even they are better than the MARTA pics you provided.
I'll take the 'grimy' look of the NYC Subway! Better than that crap!
You sound like someone who has just ridden NYC trains and not much else, don't knock it 'til you try it. Get out more.
You sound like someone who likes to assume a lot. That gets you nowhere. If you'd like to know, I do get out a lot. And I still think MARTA doesn't look that impressive aesthetically.
"You sound like someone who likes to assume a lot. That gets you nowhere. If you'd like to know, I do get out a lot. And I still think MARTA doesn't look that impressive aesthetically."
Consider the following:
"De gustibus non est disputandem."
Assuming I've spelled it correctly, the Latin phrase implies that you are both right.
I never assume anything, I base everything from what I read or observe. Based on your reaction to my photos ("God" and similar sentence starters usually means that someone is suprised or reacting quickly) is where I conclude that you haven't ridden MARTA before. Please correct me of I'm wrong. I can see that you don't assume when you can make a judgement about a system based on two photos (one was of another system).
Like Ron said, we're both right, there's no point in arguing about taste. But after riding many a subway, I think I can talk fairly about what is pleasing and what is not. At least I've given many reasons and examples for my opinons.
I haven't ridden MARTA. There, happy? What I meant is that I think the stations are ugly due to my opinion of them aesthetically. I don't know about their service or anything, but I'm sure it's decent.
I haven't ridden MARTA. There, happy? What I meant is that I think the stations are ugly due to my opinion of them aesthetically with the pics you provided. I don't know about their service or anything, but I'm sure it's decent.
Whoops. I apologize for the double post.
Because of the double post, I'm VERY happy ;-)
Excellent, but where are they? I can see some names, but not others
Thanks in anticipation
In sequence:
Franklin Street (1/9)
Fulton Street (4/5)
Grand Army Plaza (2/3)
Hunters Point Avenue (7)
Houston Street (1/9)
36th Street (M/N/R/W)
66th Street-Lincoln Center (1/9)
81st Street-Museum of Natural History (B/C)
Borough Hall (4/5)
Out of the 20 or so rail systems I've ridden in four countries, NYCT has the least attractive, most run down looking stations.
This is a matter of personal opinion. I find the photos you posted of MARTA quite uninspiring. The first one looks like the concrete walls of a parking garage with colored tiles placed along the walls to spruce up the place.
On the other hand, NYC subways have tiled murals with color and detail. How this looks 'decrepit' is amazing to me. Even the IND (which many old time railfans consider bland in comparison to the BMT/IRT) has colorful variety. Ride the A express on Fulton Av. There are tiled bands of different color at the local stations, and they provide for quite an appearance on the express as you bypass the stations. The Lexington Av "F" station is one of the best examples (along with Bowling Green 4/5) on how you can use warm tones in the subway. Wall St. (one stop after Bowling Green) has an old style wooden token booth with nice colored tiles in the station. 168th st (1/9 only) has an underground 'vault' that has lamps with globes on them.
I can agree with you somewhat, there are some pretty crappy looking stations (a result from the 70's), such as Rector on the N/R or the 4th av subway (again, due to the 70's). In fact, the biggest contrast between rundown and rebuilt can be found at the mezzanine level of the 42nd st 8th av subway stop. It is new and renovated, but the connecting passage to the rest of the (under construction) station is somewhat run down.
Just because something doesn't appeal to your particular sense of architecture doesn't mean that it's 'crappy.' By your standards, the lobby of the Twin towers is more architecturally apealing than that of the Empire State Building. But many others would disagree with you. I Don't expect to change your views, but learn that there are other styles that can be just as apealing as your favorite one.
Station entrances are just holes in the ground with stairs.
Sadly, the kiosks that were to be a part of every entrance were removed.
The rolling stock feels like it's going to fall apart; they just don't feel as solid as other systems.
...despite the fact that many of these cars are actually built stronger than the newer ones on newer systems. The only cars that I believe truly eminate 'bad state of repair' are the redbirds (corroded hulls? come one guys...) and the R-40S/M (those sloppy interiors and uncomfortable seats. Plus, a couple of times doors got stuck, and passengers had to 'unstick' them).
I don't dislike NYC's style, the way it looks run down is probably the number one reason why I like the system. Of course everything come down to personal taste, I'm not going to deny that. But try think of riding the NYC subway from the point of view of someone who doesn't live in NYC. Go and look through the photos of this site of subways around the world and in the US. Take note how many utilities are exposed, the architecture above and around the trackways, what the columns and floors look like, and then look at the NYC station photos. Please TRY to see it from an outsiders view, don't pay attention at details too much, but do good glances, like hwat a tourist would observe. Then tell me how NYC compares to the rest of the world.
As a non-New York resident, New York's stations remind me of stations here in Philadelphia that are also old and in need of some care. :)
This is another reason why I love MARTA's Peachtree Center station. That unfinished rock is going to look no different a hundred years from now than it does today. I can see the same wisdom in the design of DC Metro's concrete stations...those things will look new for quite awhile.
Mark
Mark
I like the way you pointed it out. In my own personal opinion, I don't consider any station to be "ugly", it just has its own persona, character, or better yet, history. The New York City Subway has a history like none other, and the general look of it reflects it. The fact that some stations may look less appealing than others is part of its own personal charm, kinda like its a living, breathing animal in and of itself. And besides, what do you expect from a system that's almost 100 years old and has to provide the volume of transportation that it does. Other cities with newer systems, like Washington, are now just beginning to appreciate the foresight that the planners of the NY system had in planning in express tracks. Granted, it may not always be the cleanest, but it is the cheapest, most reliable form of transportation in and around New York.
Go and look through the photos of this site of subways around the world and in the US. Take note how many utilities are exposed, the architecture above and around the trackways, what the columns and floors look like, and then look at the NYC station photos.
See, you are again looking at it from an aesthetic view. This is not 'run down' in any shape or form. It was the design of the system. Run down is when something shows signs of poor maintenance. Like missing tiles, water damage or sagging ceilings. Even looking at it from a tourists point of view, the NYC subway wouldn't look 'run down' necessarily, just old styled.
Now, I've looked at other systems. And really, the only ones that you can compare to NYC subway are ones built in similar eras. Chicago's els and Boston's subways are a good comparison. I know that you must think that these look 'run down' as well.
I didn’t mention the words "run down" in any post so far. I’m totally commenting on the design of the system, not the condition. Aesthetics is a function of design, not maintenance. Like you said, run-down is a result of maintenance. I’m saying the design of the system is ugly. Take Union Square, the station is nothing more than two platforms in the tunnel. In Chicago and Boston (except the underground Green Line, the only other system I know of that is like NYCT in this respect), the stations have a different design than the tunnels. And that’s what I’m getting at, the stations end at the platform edge, you don’t have much to look at when you’re facing forward waiting for a train.
If you want to talk run-down, NYCT did/is doing a good job rehabbing stations. But for the stations not yet rehabbed, the average person is NOT going to see the difference between run-down and bad design. This is reality, unfortunately. Take Chambers St on the JMZ, most people on this board have called it the worst station in the system. It definitely is the least maintained, but how many people have actually mentioned the station itself is a good design? I’ve only read one post that said that.
Take Union Square, the station is nothing more than two platforms in the tunnel.
That's because it is "built in a tunnel"! Actually the platform extensions brought the station into the tunnel. It's funny that you mention the Union Square station (I assume you mean Lexington). Call me crazy, but that is one of my favorite stations in the system! It also goes against a lot of what I said in other posts because it has no mosaics, (except for some newly installed ones in the recent renovation), very little in the form of aesthetic attributes, but I find it to be a very interesting and, for lack of a better word, "cool" station.
In actuality, the station was much less "tunnel-like" when it did open. It had fairly ornate "IRT Contract One" tilework on the now walled up local platforms, and admittedly, the extensions of the current platforms (originally the "express" platforms) does give an impression of a "station in the tunnel" look.
Take Chambers St on the JMZ, most people on this board have called it the worst station in the system. It definitely is the least maintained, but how many people have actually mentioned the station itself is a good design?
As for Chambers, that station is in horrendous condition, however I don't feel it has a bad design. Actually, it is a very elegant station. The "local" stations are/were very intricate (even if the "Brooklyn Bridge" has some features of the real Brooklyn Bridge missing). The high ceilings, the mezzanine, all give the station an elegant look.
If you want to talk run-down, NYCT did/is doing a good job rehabbing stations. But for the stations not yet rehabbed, the average person is NOT going to see the difference between run-down and bad design. This is reality, unfortunately. Take Chambers St on the JMZ, most people on this board have called it the worst station in the system. It definitely is the least maintained, but how many people have actually mentioned the station itself is a good design? I’ve only read one post that said that.
That's what's so sad about Chambers Street. It could be a beautiful station, but has been allowed to rot away so terribly. If it hadn't been so nice to begin with, its decline wouldn't be so bad.
I was at Chambers Street this weekend, and did take some time to look around before transfering to Brooklyn Bridge. It really is a beautiful station. A real jewel to the system if it would get a rehab. It's really a shame that it has been allowed to deteriorate to this state. Hopefully it will be cleaned up with the rehab much of the Nassau Line is now experiencing.
I always wondered why a station so close to City Hall would be allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair. IMO, this should have been one of the first stations on the Nassau Line to be rehabbed, no second to last (then again you never know, Bowery may be rehabbed before it is).
The problem with Chambers Street -- and the rest of the Nassau St. line over the years was it did not go where the money was in the eyes of city and state politicians, and that was midtown Manhattan and the Upper East Side. If the MTA ever does build the Second Ave. subway and runs at least part of it through the Nassau Loop, Chambers would finally show up on the radar screens of a lot of those same people.
The neighboring Brooklyn Bridge station was rehabbed twice in the past 41 years, in 1961 when the platforms were lengthened to the north, and six years ago, when the traditional IRT tiling was put in to replace the TA 1950s-60s wall tile look put in during the 61 rehab. The only thing that Chambers Street got was the exact same 1961 tiles on the west wall because the northern extension of the B'klyn Bridge platform forced the TA to put in a new wall on the BMT as well.
It's nice to see some rehab work finally being done on the J/M/Z stations, but with the plans to cut off the east side of the Canal platform to "straighten out" the line, I have a feeling Chambers is going to get a big new wall down the middle of the station, that even with new tiling, is going to make it look out of proportion, with too high a ceiling on what will probably become a two-track single platform set-up.
If the two-tracking is continued through to Chambers, it will be as part of a second project, and probably a very expensive one at that.
There are currently only two tracks approaching Canal from the south, but just south of the station the NB track swings east to make room for two more. That's the southern extent of the realignment currently being worked on.
It would seem like if the idea is to elimnate all the curves on the Nassau St. line beteen Fulton and Canal that eventually they would have to deal with the curves in the northbound track, swinging outward (east) to enter Chambers and then moving back in (west) to align with the new Canal St. set-up. But to do that they will have to figure out what they want to do south of Chambers, since any straightening I assume would require the distruction of the center tail track that ends at a bumper block north of Fulton St.
It would seem like if the idea is to elimnate all the curves on the Nassau St. line beteen Fulton and Canal that eventually they would have to deal with the curves in the northbound track, swinging outward (east) to enter Chambers and then moving back in (west) to align with the new Canal St. set-up
I think the main reason for the realignment is to be able to abandon the extra platforms at Bowery and Canal, while at the same time avoiding all the switching that is necessary on the line. I would assume they would want to do the same at Chambers, but I don't think that is planned at this time.
But to do that they will have to figure out what they want to do south of Chambers, since any straightening I assume would require the distruction of the center tail track that ends at a bumper block north of Fulton St.
I am always confused as to where all the tracks go around Chambers. I know the old Manhattan Bridge tracks are near there somewhere. But there seems to be so many unused tracks around there. Where did/do all the extra tracks go? What happens north of Chambers? The center tracks just end? How do the tracks enter from Fulton - Would they be able to direct the Northbound track (directionally southbound Queens bound track) into the Broad street bound Center track? What about at the other end leaving Chambers on the way to Canal. The Nassau line confuses the H*ll out of me. There is so much infastructure there, but it doesn't seem to connect easily - it seems so intricate.
did you check the track maps?
Thanks, that helps quite a bit.
From the looks of the map, there is no problem using the Broad Street bound "express" track between Canal and Chambers (at least when they are done with the project at Canal). The problem seems to be between Fulton and Chambers. Would it be easy to connect the "tail" track south of Chambers to the Queens bound track from Fulton? Of course, that I can't tell from the map. Are the tracks on the same level, and it's just a matter of adding a switch, or would there be major construction involved?
It could be done, but I'm sure they'd like to leave Chambers St. in it's current configurations so it can be used as a terminal.
It could be done, but I'm sure they'd like to leave Chambers St. in it's current configurations so it can be used as a terminal.
Yeah, to make it a two track one platform station would be extreme. I was thinking more on the line of this - http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=399344.
This would make Chambers a two island, three track station, and would get rid of all the abandoned platforms. This would eliminate them as eysores, and allow the center track for terminating purposes, the current center platform would be the Queens platform, and the current Queens and local platforms would be abandoned behind a wall.
It could be done, but I'm sure they'd like to leave Chambers St. in it's current configurations so it can be used as a terminal.
Actually you could still have a setup to relay trains on a 2 track, 1 island platform configuration, similar to that at 205 St on the D. Just during the week have the switches normal.
GP: The Chambers Street Station was never built for through service in the way that it is operated today. As built the station was to have five platforms and four tracks. Provison for two more tracks and two more platforms to the east of the existing station was provided for by tunnel pockets in the east wall of the tunnel north of the station.
As built the two westernmost tracks were to connect to the Centre Street Subway north of the Station and to the Brooklyn Bridge at the south end which is why the west platform is so much higher than the east platform at the south end of the station. The connection actually was built but tracks were never installed and it was partially destroyed in 1931 when the connection was made into the Nasau Street Line.
The two easternmost tracks were to connect to the southern (or western) tracks on the Manhattan Bridge to the north and to a line under WILLIAMS STREET to the south. This would have given trains to the south a much more direct (straightline) route. By the time that they got around to extending the line south of Chambers Street the IRT Williams St-Clark St Line was already on Williams Street so they chose Nassau Street which is one block west for the route. This accounts for the wide swing that northbound trains make when entering Chambers Street.
The two westernmost tracks openned for service on August 4,1913 and were used by trains to and from the Williamsburg Bridge.
The two easternmost tracks openned for service on June 22,1915 for trains to and from the Manhattan Bridge. (West or south tracks, the ones that are used today by BMT Broadway Line trains.) The first service into the station over this route was a Sea Beach Line trains with a very young #4 Sea Beach Fred aboard.
From 1915 until the Nassau Street Line openned on May 30,1931 Chambers Street operated basically as two separate two-track stations side by side.
Note also at this time that only the two westernmost tracks of the Centre Street Line were used between Chambers Street and The Bowery.
There were three tracks in service between The Bowery and Essex Street (formerly Manhattan Terminal) as the then north bound tracks (today's southbound express) swung over to the alignment of the northbound express track at west of The Bowery and followed that alignment to Essex Street. It was hoped that some other operator could be found for the easternmost tracks.(Read trolley cars). By 1915 no one else had shown up so the current four track alignment was put into service with the connection into the express tracks at Canal Street broken and the construction of a concrete platform connecting the two sides. Its intersting to note that the present-day reconstruction will more or less return the Centre Street Line to the original alignment that it had in 1913.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Great post! I am saving it. It explains a lot. Thanks.
You quite welcome.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
You quite welcome.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
LARRY: Thanks for your excellent post on the track layout. I had heard or read somewhere that the New York Central RR had thought of operating two of the four Centre Street tracks but never made a serious offer.
A question: At Canal Street J/M/Z, at the southern end of the station, between the two center stub end tracks (I believe only one is active), there exists a passageway through the center wall with short platforms, about spaced for the center door of an A/B type (assuming the train was up against the bumping block). My thought is that this provision was made before the platforms were connected at the southern end, so that two trains of A/B types could berth on adjacent tracks, though separated by the wall, and crews could walk between the south motors without walking the length of the platform and climbing stairs. Do you have any knowledge of whether my supposition is correct, or know why this provision was made, or if it was ever used for any reason?
THANKS!
Conrad Misek
Conrad: Thank you for your comments. I do not know of the openning that you refer to but on my next trip down to the city I will look for it. I can only offer some conjecture at this point. As it was originally built the Centre Street Line would have been two separate two-track rail lines running side by side so if there was an openning in the center tunnel wall it might only have been for maintenance purposes. When the station was rebuilt and a walkway was constructed between the two platforms the two center tracks naturally became terminal tracks. Although there was a double crossover north of the station until 1949 I don't know how much use (if any) the southbound express track ever received. I only remember the #14 (and later the JJ) terminating on the northbound express track and the motorman walking to the north end of the train.
best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Here's a picture of the opening in question, something which has had me baffled for years. Only in this thread has a legitimate reason for this structure's existance been offered:
It looks like soon that little platform opening in the wall will be just a memory soon with the east platform abandinment work going on there. As of Sunday when I was there, that opening looked to be half cement blocked up, along with all the other normal archway openings along the lower portion curtain wall.
Sorry, typo - "abandonment" not abaninment, my finger slipped.
A question: At Canal Street J/M/Z, at the southern end of the station, between the two center stub end tracks (I believe only one is active), there exists a passageway through the center wall with short platforms, about spaced for the center door of an A/B type (assuming the train was up against the bumping block). My thought is that this provision was made before the platforms were connected at the southern end, so that two trains of A/B types could berth on adjacent tracks, though separated by the wall, and crews could walk between the south motors without walking the length of the platform and climbing stairs.
Yes, see here about the forth of fifth photo down on the page with explanation on the pass-through:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/canal.html
question: At Canal Street J/M/Z, at the southern end of the station, between the two center stub end tracks (I believe only one is active), there exists a passageway through the center wall with short platforms, about spaced for the center door of an A/B type (assuming the train was up against the bumping block). My thought is that this provision was made before the platforms were connected at the southern end, so that two trains of A/B types could berth on adjacent tracks, though separated by the wall, and crews could walk between the south motors without walking the length of the platform and climbing stairs. Do you have any knowledge of whether my supposition is correct, or know why this provision was made, or if it was ever used for any reason?
THANKS!
Conrad Misek
Conrad: I did a little more research and found out there there is an abandoned exit at the northeast corner of Canal and Centre Street which was to contain an escalator that was never built. Perhaps this is what the cut in the wall was for.
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
I did a little more research and found out there there is an abandoned exit at the northeast corner of Canal and Centre Street which was to contain an escalator that was never built. Perhaps this is what the cut in the wall was for.
I don't think that was what the cut out was for, because it's in the curtain wall between the two center tracks, so there is no way for an escalator to be put there. See the link I posted to his response to see a photo of the cut-out he means.
But, BTW, while on the subject of abandoned exits at Canal Street. Do you know where the abandoned stairways that go down on the Queens-bound platform used to go?
At Canal/Centre there used to be a 2nd token booth at the s/e corner. It was a p/t booth. It was removed when TA made the p/t booth south of the s/w corner a full time booth.
At one time I believe there was another exit on the station. It was at the northside of Canal/Centre. I remember a stairway on the Broad St side that always seemed to be locked. North of the stairways going downstairs to the other BMT trains.
Is there evidence of this entrance at street level?
When was it closed?
Does anyone else find those boarded-up staircases a little bit spooky? Come to think of it, that entire platform is spooky.
Does anyone else find those boarded-up staircases a little bit spooky? Come to think of it, that entire platform is spooky.
Actually, come to think of it, much of the Nassau line is spooky! Each station on that line has a spook factor all it's own. Probably because there are so many abandoned exits, areas, tracks, and infastructure.
GP-38: I didn't see the photos the first time I went to the link. Now I know what Conrad is taking about. I don't think that the abandoned exit would have had anything to do with those wall cuts. I"m afraid I kind provdie any info on that abandoned stairway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi Larry ...
Also, let me direct GP38 to my article on Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 to 1913 for additional details. Look at the section entitled The First BRT Subway: The Brooklyn Loop Lines and the Centre Street Subway for info on Chambers Street and the entire Centre Street Loop.
--Mark
Hi Mark: That is a most excellent history of th early days of the BRT/BMT that you wrote. You sorted out a very complex history and made it understandable.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
PS: Do you know if any portions of the unused Brooklyn Bridge connection are still intact?
Thanks, Larry.
I am not aware of whether any of the Brooklyn Bridge connections are still intact. Perhaps a small section of tunnel still exists near the Municipal Building, but there's probably no way to get into it.
--Mark
Thanks for the link!
Do you know exactly what the configuration of the Essex Street station was when it first opened? I've seen lots of conflicting information as to what was actually used at the beginning.
I asked about that a while back. Try a search of subtalk using "Essex" in the search. I don't remember the title of the thread so hopefully that will work. Someone posted a layout of Essex in that thread. I don't remember exactly but this is how I think I remember it:
-The current Wall platform is from the original station.
-The current Broad St bound track was also original.
-Where the current center track is now, was an island platform.
-Where the current island platform is now, was a second track.
-Where the current Queens bound track is now, was another wall -platform.
The open space next to the current Queens bound track was original also and that was a multi low platform trolly terminal with curving tracks.
So Essex was a three platform two track terminal station, set up like this:
Wall platform-track-island platform-track-wall platform - trolly terminal.
Do you know exactly what the configuration of the Essex Street station was when it first opened?
Moving Platform: The "Manhattan Terminal" , which is today's Essex Street Station openned for service on September 16,1908. At that time the station consisted of two tracks with three platforms connected at the west end. The center platform was for loading and the two outer platforms for unloading. When the line was extended west and south to Chambers Street in 1913 both tracks were cut through the connecting platform at the west end of the station. The southbound track was directly extended into what is todays southbound local track.(J2).
The northbound track split into two with one track following the alignment of today's southbound express track (J4)into the Bowery Station and stub-ending at a bumper at the west end of the station.
The other track split off to the south and followed the alighment of today's northbound express track (J3) into Bowery Station and then swung back onto the alignment of the southbound express track (J4) which it followed to the west platform at Chambers Street Station. Not that although I refer to this as the southbound express track it was used by northbound trains from 1913-1915.
In 1915 the decision was made to place all four tracks of the Centre Street Subway into service and to connect them into a rebuilt Essex Street Station with three tracks. In order to accomplish this the following chages were made at Essex Street. The present day southbound side platfrom and southbound track (J2) were not changed. The center platfrom was removed and replaced by today's middle track. (J 3/4). The northbound track was removed and replaced with a narrow island platform. (The present day northbound platform.) The northbound side platform was removed and replaced with the present day northbound local track. (J1).
Note that when the present day reconstruction of the Centre Street Subway is complete the southbound express track (J4) will once again be used by northbound trains all the way from Chambers Street to Essex Street.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Note that when the present day reconstruction of the Centre Street Subway is complete the southbound express track (J4) will once again be used by northbound trains all the way from Chambers Street to Essex Street.
Are they going to be doing the reconstruction between Fulton and Chambers so that at Chambers St, the Queens-bound trains using the current Broad Street bound "express" track?
GP-38: To the best of my knowledge no. Northbound trains from Nassau Street will still arrive on the easternmnost track at Chambers Street and follow J4 north to Canal Street as they do now. The change will come from Canal Street north to Essex Street. If they tried to bring the Nassau Street Line into Chambers Street on the southbound express tracks it would require a great deal of reconstruction including the removal of the tail track and would incur a very steep grade.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Very Interesting! Thanks for the info. The Nassau line makes a little more sense when the history of it is taken into account. The whole Nassau line has so much infastructure, and it seems to be waiting for service that is never to come. Years ago obviously it was a much more important line. Who knows, maybe one day the 2nd Ave Subway will one day connect and run through it, like the side by dide operation was originally planned for the line. Then the platforms they are abandoning may one day see life once again. Maybe some of the great great great great grandchildren of some of the people on the board will see it happen.
GP: The Centre Street LIne from Essex Street to Chambers Street is one of the richest in transit history. There are several turnouts to routes that were planned but never built, unused and abandoned platforms and entrances that one could write a book just about this oneline. The IRT Contract II Line in Brooklyn is another one with a rich and varied history.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It's nice to see some rehab work finally being done on the J/M/Z stations, but with the plans to cut off the east side of the Canal platform to "straighten out" the line, I have a feeling Chambers is going to get a big new wall down the middle of the station, that even with new tiling, is going to make it look out of proportion, with too high a ceiling on what will probably become a two-track single platform set-up.
I always thought it may be a good idea to put a wall up at the edge of the current Queens bound platform on the unused track side, abandoning that platform. Then, the current unused center platform would become the Queens bound platform. That would leave a two platform, three track station. The weekend J trains could then terminate on the newely created "center" track (current Broad street bound "express" track). It would be cheaper than having to renovate the entire station. And you would not have all the unused platforms in full view, and being an eyesore. As much as I like the abandoned wall platform, it does create an eyesore in an already depressing station, and this idea would also eliminate the abandoned center platform.
I believe that the realignment should not have started because lets say more people start to ride the Nassau line and it becomes too small for crowds if they were to continue this realignment process in my opinion it would make this line EVEN WORSE. I agree that if the 2 Av subway is ever built, that would really put life into the Nasssau line, particularly because of the # of platforms it has.
If the Second Ave. line is ever built, I would think they would reopen the four-track set-up, but arrange it either so the soon-to-be-abandoned tracks on the East Side of Canal are for Second Ave. trains only, or set it up so that the "express" or "local" tracks in both directors would be for the Second Ave. trains, while the other tracks would be for trains headed to/from the Willie B (how the tracks would feed into Nassau Street from Chambers would probably determine where the Second Ave. tracks would go -- it makes far more sense to terminate the Willie B trains at Chambers and continue any new Second Ave. service down to Broad St. and through the Montague tunnel to Brooklyn).
Then it is a matter of your own personal taste. The fact that the stations are just a part of the tunnel is something that you might not like, but that doesn't make the system 'ugly.' The fact that stations don't have these grand bellmouths is just something that you dislike, not necessarily poor design. And, please don't tell me that a passenger cannot tell the difference between run-down and not-yet-rehabbed. Most of the non-rehabbed stations are still in great shape. I'm sure that a person could tell the difference between Nostrand Av and Hoyt-schermerhorn (On the "A") unused platforms.
It seems that your main beef is that there are no 'frames' for the subway tunnel portals, that the subway just opens up into a station. Let's not forget that in some stations, the tunnel is right below the street. I can quite see how someone could confuse a station with flourescent lighting and colored tiling as the same thing as a grafitti strewn wall. Even the worst unrehabbed stations are at least that good.
Personally, I found the pictures that you displayed of the Atlanta system ugly. The walls and ceiling in one of them is just concrete, like a parking lot. Some of the Atlanta stations are very nice examples of medern use of stone. I did like the decatur station (I think that one is the best). But, this is all just my opinion.
One station in NYC that very much feels like it's in the tunnel is 72nd/Broadway. Stand at the (soon-to-be-abandoned) south end of the NB platform and it'll really feel like you're standing in a tunnel. The platform is narrow to begin with and it tapers to a point; the SB platform has already ended three or four carlengths up, so SB trains have already picked up a bit of speed by the time they pass you by. I actually think it's pretty neat, although if I'm still there 15 minutes later I probably don't think anything's pretty neat.
What about 53rd and Lex on the E or V line? Or Grand Central on the 7.
Tunnel-like (reminds me a bit of London tube stations) but not claustrophobic is the Lexington Av-63rd station on the F.
Those are very different. The south end of the NB platform at 72nd feels like a tiny island in the middle of a four-track subway tunnel.
Ah, yes, the optical effect created by the small platform and large station. I agree.
Although I have been at the station at 72nd a few times, I'm not that familiar with it (especially after not waiting for a train there in a few years - just passing through). Is it similar to the effect at the end of the Union Square platform northbound? Before they put a railing up there about 5 years ago, I used to wait at that extreme end of the station (it was less crowded and was convenient for the 6's railfan window). There weren't even any lights within 10-15 feet of the end there - so it was really like waiting in the middle of the tunnel!
Yes, it's pretty similar, though it's less screechy at 72nd and there are no staircases nearby.
I think the station at Lawrence Street was actualy built in the tunnel as an "after-thought" after the line already opened.
You don't like my photos!?? :-) Actually the second photo, which I believe you are refering to, is in Sao Paulo. That station is along the original segment, and every station is exactly the same, it's not really my favorite example, either. A picture is worth a thousand words, but being there in person is worth a million. It's impossible to explain why I like whatever unless you have experienced it yourself. Oh well, like you said, it's all about taste. Just curious, what other subways have you ridden? I'd llke to get a feeling of where you are coming from. I grew up riding MARTA, every station is different with many neat works of art all over every station. There is lots of stuff you can't get with one shot. I've ridden almost 20 subway and light rail system in four countries. I would like to think of myself as being knowledgeable in the design of subways. NYCT just isn't the nicest looking system I've ridden, and sorry, but that's the way I see it.
However, I don't know how many times I need to repeat this before everyone gets it, but I've already said several times that I LIKE the way NYCT looks. LIKE LIKE LIKE. That's my taste in subways, but I really don't think in the grand scheme of subway architecture it is in the top 3/4 of its class. And yes, tunnel portals are important to me, because it joins two sides of a station to make it one distinct thought, not two seperate platforms independent of each other.
Just curious, what other subways have you ridden?
Montreal and Philly. Also rode the New Orleans Trolley.
I grew up riding MARTA, every station is different with many neat works of art all over every station.
1. I figured you grew up riding MARTA. It seems to have the style you like. Kinda like how I like NYC's style myself.
2. Every station is different... You should love NYCT's system.
but I really don't think in the grand scheme of subway architecture it is in the top 3/4 of its class.
You're right. It's in a class of it's own.
And yes, tunnel portals are important to me, because it joins two sides of a station to make it one distinct thought, not two seperate platforms independent of each other.
Most 2 track stations convey the feeling of 'togetherness.' Local stations do seem seperated though (I like that actually).
"I didn’t mention the words "run down" in any post so far. I’m totally commenting on the design of the system, not the condition. Aesthetics is a function of design, not maintenance. Like you said, run-down is a result of maintenance. I’m saying the design of the system is ugly. Take Union Square, the station is nothing more than two platforms in the tunnel. In Chicago and Boston (except the underground Green Line, the only other system I know of that is like NYCT in this respect), the stations have a different design than the tunnels. And that’s what I’m getting at, the stations end at the platform edge, you don’t have much to look at when you’re facing forward waiting for a train."
"If you want to talk run-down, NYCT did/is doing a good job rehabbing stations. But for the stations not yet rehabbed, the average person is NOT going to see the difference between run-down and bad design. This is reality, unfortunately. Take Chambers St on the JMZ, most people on this board have called it the worst station in the system. It definitely is the least maintained, but how many people have actually mentioned the station itself is a good design? I’ve only read one post that said that."
Remember, the subway was built almost 100 years ago and it was move people first, design, art/mosaics second. What's wrong with the design of the system? It moves people and that comes first OK! You're only thinking from the railfan's poin of view. The Union Square stations are attractive. A station wtih 2 platforms that's plain is Jay St-Borough Hall, its in good shape and it doesn't really need a renovation just yet but it does need climate control.
Yes, unfortunately, Chambers St on the J,M,Z is a eyesore and it is depressing, especially with those abandoned platforms in its current condition. A Nassau line renaissance, particularly for Chambers would really make it so beautiful that you would forget it was crappy. The decline of the Nassau line and lack of frequent service makes it sad but it's slowly resurging. A fourth line or increased service along with the resurgence would bring new passengers to this line.
New York's system is far from perfect, but I really don't think there are too many systems that beat it.
First of all, not many systems have so many intermingling lines on the same route. Many systems just go from point A to point B, and if you are lucky, points C or D. Think of the options someone has standing somewhere in the Times Square complex!
Second to quote "There were other irrelevant points, the ornate design of Moscow's subway". Although not Moscow, New York has great design in it's stations. No where else will you get such beautiful mosaics that can be seen on the many routes throughout the system. Many of the Contract One stations are masterpieces, the Canarsie line, even the IND has a great tile design, even in it's simplicity. Most other systems are as plain as the Archer Ave extension stations. Think of how boring NYC's system would be if all the stations looked like BART's stations, or the boring Brooklyn 4th Ave stations, covering up the real mosaics that make up NY's system.
And Jersey Mike stated in another post in this thread about how "bad" NY'S system is and how "rundown" it is. Well, Yes there is a lot of work to be done, but I think they have done an amazing job at refurbuishing the system. Well, let's go back just 15 years. In 1987, I would have had a hard time finding a clean station to wait at, for a clean train without graffiti, with air conditioning. It's safe to say that less than half the trains were graffiti-free, almost every outdoor or elevated station was strewn with graffiti, and unpainted in decades, and even though they probably got the graffiti off the tiles in the underground stations, the pillars were full if it, and unpainted in years. In 1987, if you had told anyone that 100% of the trains would be graffiti-free, and all the stations for the most part graffiti-free, and the major and well done renovations that have been done at a good portion of the system's stations, they would have called in Belleview to take you away in a straight-jacket.
Sure, NY does have a lot of work to do, but what they accomplished in 10 to 15 years is nothing short of amazing.
YES!! Someone who's standing up for our system. Thanks to all who are standing up for the system. I'm not going to let someone talk bad things about my NYCS system that I use daily. How much systems have a regulatr express,this is for the NYCS bashers? Its a VERY SHORT list.
Even though the system is flawed in certain areas, it has a whole lot of history and has more beauty than you think, its just covered up (4 Av line), some stations are just ugly (2 Av on the F/V,Smith-9 St on the F), and using aluminum sheets as "walls" (el stations), which is a shame and its 2002 but due to a tight budget we got to live with it. And they want to hike the fare to $2....
The fiscal crisis of the 70's and the deferred maintenance in the same era and the '80's really took a toll on the system and to this day it still lingers because we lost a lot of express service,lost the 3 Av el, unnecessary scrapping of train cars, which led to the train car shortage we still have(R21/22,R27/30{some 30's went through GOH}) but due to rising costs of maintenance & possibly lack of space they took the cheaper way out by scrapping, although it wasn't really their fault. We lost so much, especially express service that now its so hard to bring back. Examples:
Loss of Culver express(F)
Loss of regular Broadway express for 10 years until 7/22/01 Had express service(Q) when the Manny-B was closed in 1995
Loss of Culver shuttle. Had it still been here, would save a whole lot of time to connect to the West End/4 Av express rather than go to 4 Av to take local service but that was back in 1975
Work stopped on the 2 Av subway
There are others that I may have left out but I will not list them all, maybe in another post. The system is way too small for such a large subway population and we need expansion like the 2 Av subway and other new routes but the tight budget limits expansion. They could start recouping losses by issuing paycuts to the execs, who get paid a lot of money for bad planning and sit on their asses, not likely to happen though. I really hope they DO NOT layoff workers like 6-7 years ago.
Even though there are many flaws with the NYC Subway system, IT STILL KICKS ASS!
Don't worry, it will beat any system and its the best because its New York and its a one of a kind. For the bashers, name another system that compares to NYC in terms of size:
# of stations:467(Cortlandt St 1/9 is closed)
over 800 miles of track
over 200 route miles
almost 6000 subway cars
Tell me what other system has these numbers. Ill bet all my $$ the answer is 0!!!
Not to mention 28 different routes (24 excluding the various current shuttles).
ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSSVWZ12345679
My point exactly. With all it's flaws, it's saving graces are still more than enough to make it one of the best systems in the world......now if only we could get rid of some it's flaws......then think of what a great system it would be!
Fact, the Purple Line is not the Skokie Swift.
it is a daylight Mon Fri op. So are many NY expresses which become locals, evening or overnight.
In general, the NY system was built with greater capacity, although the BSS in Philly feels like a Dual Contracts project with the same steel pillars between the tracks look.
In London on a vacation many years ago I rode the Underground exclusively, as it was the easiest way to get around quickly. It was only a 4 day stay, so there really wasn't the time to learn the bus routes, which at first glance is flat out confusing....ancient cities had no planning boards to crate grid-layouts like NY and many others American cities.
Bottom line, it's a very nice system, but it isn't a light rail (or wasn't back in 1976) by any strech of the imagination. Reminded me somewhat of the BMT, lots of open-cut lines, underground tunnels in the center of the city. They hadn't done the extension to Heathrow then, it was in planning at the time.
Jtrainloco didn't say London was "light rail", which it certainly isn't, he said it was "commuter rail", which it isn't either (I've posted on that elsewhere in this thread).
IMO the proportions of underground and aboveground track are about the same on the London tube as they are on the NY subway. The difference is we don't have els (more's the pity), and that is basically because our streets aren't wide enough - that "ancient city" stuff again. The sections of the LU that are above street level are on embankments or brick viaducts, running parallel to main streets rather than over the top of them. Lots of the commuter rail lines are on viaducts too -- the arches under the viaducts are used for various industrial and purposes, some of them legal (8-) , and the well-known cockney song "Underneath the Arches" (Flanagan and Allen) talks about these arches.
If you visit London again you can go on an interesting light rail, the Docklands Light Railway, which wasn't there in 1976. It is a fun ride.
Everyone makes comments about NYCT being slow as far as speeds go. Let's not forget that trains on the Lex line still reach up to 50 mph, and the 60th Street Tubes still can get up to 60 mph!! As for the rest of the system the reason why the NY subways are slowed down lie in the form of two well-known and infamous names in NYC Transit history: Robert Ray and Leyton Gibson!!! What they caused is the reason why NYC Transit sought to slow the trains down by adjusting the traction motors for slower speeds, and installing new timer signal systems to slow a train down, and to trip its brakes if it does not comply with the timer signals' speed limit, and wheel detector speed enforcement systems. Those two names are the primary reason why trains are slow here. It had to take things to happen for things to become as they are. While I would love to have the trains return to as they were when they could fly along and live up to the term "Rapid Transit", I and everyone had to accept reality, which is that it took things to happen for things to be slowed down. Blame Ray and Gibson (no disrespect to a dead man, but he played his part) for the slow downs!!
".... the size of London's subway (which sounds more like commuter rail the way he described it)...."
That is untrue. The whole London Underground system is within the continuous metropolitan area of London, with the exception of one line (the Metropolitan Line beyond Moor Park) which *is* more like commuter rail, both in speed and frequency and in having higher fares. All the rest is a proper subway system just as much as New York's; LU is currently advertising that the minimum frequency at any time of the week is 10 minutes (though remember it doesn't run at all in the midnight hours).
There are only two NY-style express sections: Finchley Road to Wembley Park (Metropolitan express, Jubilee local) where the local tracks are in the middle as on the Evanston line in Chicago, and Hammersmith to Acton Town (Piccadilly express, District local) where the usual NY arrangement applies and the local tracks are on the outside. My impression is, though, that the locals which make up almost all of LU's trains do go faster than NY subway trains between stops.
On the topic of commuter rail, though, Londons actual commuter rail system (which understandably tourists don't use much) is considerably more extensive and comprehensive than LIRR + MNR + NJT combined, IMO.
I still think the NY subway is the greatest!
Fytton.
"On the topic of commuter rail, though, Londons actual commuter rail system (which understandably tourists don't use much) is considerably more extensive and comprehensive than LIRR + MNR + NJT combined, IMO. "
Incorrect. By mileage and stations, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority runs the largest and most comprehensive commuter rail system in the world. It easily outranks London in that department.
London Underground is #1 in route mileage, slightly besting New York City Transit. However, if you look at the integrated network on both sides of the Hudson, and add up the route miles (NYCT+PATH+HBLR+AirTrain), the result is pretty close, f not exceeding, London Underground's mileage.
Moscow is #1 in annual passenger demand; New York is tied for fourth place, I believe.
The London commuter lines have never belonged to London Transport. They used to be British Rail and are now privatised to a number of different companies. Their passenger numbers won't be included in LT data.
I happen to have my copies of both "The Map" and "London Connections" with me. This count was done quickly so I wouldn't vouch for its accuracy closer than +-5, but LIRR + MNR have 277 stations, while national rail has 310 stations within the boundaries of London alone. I don't have an NJT map here but I'd guess that the number of commuter stations outside the London boundary (all the way to Brighton, Southend, Oxford, Aylesbury, Peterborough and all the other places) is considerably greater than NJT's total.
So I rest my case on number of stations!
NJ Transit adds about 150 stations to NY bound service, so all agencies together total roughly 420 stations. If your total is higher for commuter rail coming into London, then you're right.
However, note that NYCT has nearly 470 stations all by itself; PATH adds 10 stations not already included in NYCT totals (I am counting the two damaged stations which are coming back next year); HBLR adds 15 more not duplicated. Newark City Subway adds a few more, but I am not considering those for the moment.
So the NY region has nearly 500 subway or light rail stops serving it.
There is no contest that the NY subway is bigger than the London Underground by pretty well all measures, especially number of passengers. LU's number of stations is around 265 - a few of which are outside the London boundary - which is well under the NY subway total (mainly because in residential areas they are further apart in London than in NY). Then the Docklands LR has 33, and the Croydon Tramlink 38 (though some of those are more station-like than others - the ones in the street-running parts aren't much more than bus stops). Inside the London boundary, then, there are a total of about 635 rail stations, almost all of which have a basic middle of the day off-peak Monday-Saturday frequency of 30 minutes or better. Outside the London boundary, as British James says, it is doubtful where to stop, though the area defined by British Rail in pre-privatisation days as "Network Southeast" is as good a definition as any of the London commuter zone. Almost all the commuter rail routes have seven day a week, all-day service (though not nights) - they are not just limited peak-hour only services. Some stations only have an hourly service.
(all the way to Brighton, Southend, Oxford, Aylesbury, Peterborough and all the other places)
The difficulty is knowing where to stop calling something a commuter train. I mean, are those Sunday Morning all stop (yes, I know, theoretically they aren't because they skip Sudbury & Harrow Road, Sudbury Hill Harrow and Olton to Bordesley) Marylebone - Birmingham trains commuter trains, or just bloody irritating that you've made four stops and aren't even out of Middlesex yet?
There are only two NY-style express sections: Finchley Road to Wembley Park (Metropolitan express, Jubilee local)
Don't forget the Fast Mets beyond there!!!
In Sao Paulo, Line 6-Orange is an express service to Line 3-Red. It's definately regularly scheduled express service, running all times. Speaking of which, I believe this month is the month that Line 6 gets turned over to the Metro company and offically becomes part of the subway system. It's been operating as a subway for the past couple of years, but was/is owned by the commuter rail company.
The Broad Street subway qualifies as a regular express service in my book, and therefore the claim that New York is the only system with regular express service is just plain wrong if you ask me. Since I'm spouting opinions, I say let us have this one. Philadelphia has grand total of 3 rapid transit lines (counting PATCO), or 3.1 if you count the Broad-Ridge Spur, while New York has...what...somewhere between 20 and 30 lines? About all we in Philly can boast is that we too have regular express service. New York has miles of routes that cover the city well, a great variety of rolling stock, and a rich history to be proud of in its subway. It doesn't need to claim to be the only system with regular express service in order to feel good about itself. Even without this bragging right I'd give just about anything to have a system like New York does in my own city!
Mark
You didn't count light rail in your tally. In west and southwest Philadelphia, that service is important.
In Philadelphia, Regional Rail is often called upon to serve areas that really need subway service. Hourly scheduling is generally the rule (except for the R8 line, which offers 30 minute headways).
You didn't count light rail in your tally. In west and southwest Philadelphia, that service is important
Indeed, I ride those trolleys every day. I was only including lines that run completely on dedicated ROW, though in that case I should have included the Route 100 Norristown line as well. And yes, SEPTA's commuter trains fill in the gaps in our subway system about as effectively as is possible using commuter rail.
Mark
But the subway is SUPPOSED to be crappy, in order to keep the Straphangers Campaign in business.
Remember the MTA's first Five-Year Capital Plan. Straphangers opposed the plan: ANY system improvement would deprive Straphangers of complaint material, thus threatening its existence and constituting a conspiracy in restraint of trade. Needless to say, that didn't get far.
I remember before I left NYC that the A on CPW (both directions) had 2-shot grade timers set at 45 and the motormen (before the became TOs) regularly overran 1 then slowed down for the next, therefore average speed was approximately 45 mph. Last time I was in NY they seemed to be running much slower. Is there any reason for this?
Yes -- fear of "hitting" a timer, going into emergency, and being suspended.
David
New York City Subways are the only subways with regular express service.
If by express service you mean four-track service, then I think NYC is the only system with a large proportion of its network that way.
However this thread has kind of assumed that other two-track systems don't offer express service. But if you compare station spacings on NYC subway with later generation systems in the US (eg. MARTA, BART) or elsewhere, you can make a much better case that they are providing an express only service, and dropping the local provision.
And that puts a rather different complexion on the speed comparisons.
"But if you compare station spacings on NYC subway with later generation systems in the US (eg. MARTA, BART) or elsewhere, you can make a much better case that they are providing an express only service, and dropping the local provision."
A transit system that provides only the express stops and not the local stops is actually a commuter train, even if they claim otherwise. For example, MNRR Mount Vernon West locals provide more than one stop per mile between 125th and Mount Vernon. In another city they could pretend to be a subway system.
A very interesting point.
Does the LIRR become a subway system at points where and when train service is only 10-15 minutes apart?
Does the LIRR become a subway system at points where and when train service is only 10-15 minutes apart?
I don't really think so. It's still a commuter rail operation. It's fare system is based on a commuter rail system. It's under FRA regulations.
Even though the Brooklyn line looks very much like a "subway" type el, and a "subway" underground portion, and does run frequently does not make it a "subway" system. The service at Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and Woodside looks less "subway" like than the Brooklyn Line, but also funs frequently, and there's no doubt that it is run like a commuter operation.
A transit system that provides only the express stops and not the local stops is actually a commuter train.
I don't think so. To me what distinguishes a commuter train from a transit system is the frequency and period of service. If you are only providing a few trains a day during commute hours only, then you are a commuter train operation. If you are providing trains every few minutes through the bulk of the day (as both MARTA and BART do) then you are a transit operation. Of course there are debatable cases in between, but they don't apply here.
If you are going to argue that stations at the sort of separation seen on NY subway local services is a necessary precondition of being a transit operator, then you are going to struggle to find more than a very few of the older transit systems.
Here's my rough rule of thumb:
It's a subway system if it enables the people living along its lines to live fully functional lives without cars. Otherwise it's a commuter rail system.
Without local service, many people along the line will invariably live outside walking distance of the nearest station.
I've used BART. It's a commuter rail system with some subway-style elements. I can't speak for MARTA since I've never ridden it.
By your definition, SEPTA's Market-Frankford and Broad Street Subways, along with PATCO, are really a commuter rail operation, because they don't cover enough of the city to allow people to live their lives without cars (but people do live that way, of course, because they use a combination of the subways, buses and trolley cars to get around).
Are SEPTA stations spaced so far apart that people living along the train lines themselves have to drive to the stations?
Whether there are enough subway lines to cover the entire city is a different question.
Thank you for the clarification. The spacings on the Broad Street, Market Frankford and light rail lines are similar to NY's.
There are even a few Regional Rail stops that would qualify under that definition (Chestnut Hill West and Highland come to mind).
>>> It's a subway system if it enables the people living along its lines to live fully functional lives without cars. Otherwise it's a commuter rail system. <<<
Los Angeles's three rail lines, Red, Blue, and Green, all have some stations too far apart to be a comfortable walk, but they are definitely not commuter rail lines. People living along the lines between stations can take parallel bus routes to the nearest station. And the population density is too low in some areas (single family detached houses) to rely on those who could walk to the stations anyway. All three lines have flat fares as opposed to distance based fares, and the costs of transfers between lines and between lines and buses, is the same as between two buses.
Tom
In my mind, this makes the system poorer. The fact that you could live along the line, but have to walk a mile to get to the subway station makes the subway questionable as a viable means of transit. It can also make the commute slower: It takes me 20 minutes just to get to the station, so any time the speed between stations may save I loose in my 'commute to the station' itself.
Expresses are trains that will save time over the local route. If there is only one set of trax, then there is no 'local' or 'express' service, but rather a normal service (only different during a re-route).
BART is NOT a subway. It's a commuter railroad. People use it purely to commute (doesn't it have special pricing too?)
NO. BART is a hybrid. The San Francisco line is clearly a Subway. It is very heavily used as the rapid transit to/from the CBD with connections at every station to Muni buses/trolleys, trolley coaches for the final leg. In turn, in the Market St tunnel, BART is the lower level route withe the Muni LRVs running in the upper level.--also high level platform multiple unit (sometimes)barrier fare control. Although you are correct about the ripoff pricing in general, in SF only BART is useable with a MUNI Fastpass unlimited monthly.
> BART is NOT a subway. It's a commuter railroad.
> People use it purely to commute (doesn't it have
> special pricing too?)
BART is sort of a hybrid. It has some aspects of a commuter railroad, but its technology and service frequency are more akin to rapid transit, and it definitely serves a local transit function. Quite a few passengers are carried whose entire trip is within the city limits of San Francisco, and MUNI monthly passes are honored between stations in the city.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
In my mind, this makes the system poorer.
Of course it does. I wasn't trying to make a case that the sort of express-only service offered by most (all?) newer systems is better than local+express service. I was trying to make a case that comparing journey times on a NYC local with those on an express-only type service was comparing apples with pears.
BART is NOT a subway... and similar comments by others.
Ok, I guess I picked a bad example. Yes, there is an element of commuter rail in BART once you get under the Bay.
But look at MARTA. I don't think many people would see MARTA as a commuter railway. But its average stop spacing is clearly well over a mile, and some spacings (Buckhead to Medical Centre springs to mind) are much more. Of course it is much faster than a NYC local.
And I don't think many people do walk to MARTA stations (apart from a few downtown/midtown ones anyway). They either drive or ride a bus. One of the most interesting things about MARTA is the amount of money spent on bus-rail interchange facilities, with many rail stations having linked undercover, in-paid-area, bus stations.
MARTA is designed to interface well with a feeder-bus system.
"And I don't think many people do walk to MARTA stations (apart from a few downtown/midtown ones anyway). They either drive or ride a bus."
Not true, actually. While a lot of people ride the bus, MARTA has stations in places (like Decatur) which have a fairly high (for Atlanta) population density - so a large number of potential commuters do live within walking distance of the stations. This is not limited to a few downtown stops.
As you get further out, the stations emphasize Park N Ride type operations.
told the truth ....seems kinda rund down from the other time we
we there ............sorry .....
Here's something I wanted to know for a long time. Its about that abandoned portion of track above the Myrtle Av./Bway station. and it ends at Lewis Av.. When heading towards the Myrtle Av./Bway station coming from Central Av. and before the (M) lowers and does those two large turns, you can see those old abandoned tracks.
What year did this happen? Because I know I wasn't around at that time. I have a 1980 subway map and it still shows the current (M), except for the fact that it went all the way to Coney Island instead of Bay Parkway.
Can any of you old transit buffs give me a history lesson?
:)
That's what remains of the old Myrtle Ave "el". This portion of the line ended at Bridge-Jay Sts. and closed Oct.4,1969. This line was a true "el" in which only wooden gate cars could run. Steel subway cars were too heavy.
The last cars to run on this portion were BMT "Q" Types. They once were wood bodied gate cars that had their end gates enclosed and pneumatic doors installed into the sides. This was done for the BMT service to the 1939-40 World's Fair via the Corona-Flushing line.
After the Fair closed, they were later used on the Manhattan 3rd Ave "el", usually the express. After 3rd Ave closed in March 1955, the Q's were stored for a couple of years ontil they were refurbished in 1958 to replace the last open vestibuled gate cars in New York. Later their wooden roofs were lowered to make them clear subway ceilings. In Oct. 1969 when Old Myrt was closed for good, the Q's were retired as the last wooden bodied subway/el cars in North America.
That's the best I can come up with. Others may add their bits of history to this line.
Bill "Newkirk"
I rode on them! : )
The R-39s were scheduled to replace these cars and the ones on the 3rd Avenue Bronx el, but the lines were closed instead : (
Elias
THat was the Track way for the Myrtle Avenue El. It was abandoned some time ago(1960's I think). It ran from Metro Avenue to Jay street(Around where the A,C and F meets). And Im 16.
"And Im 16. "
I bet you never rode on it : )
Elias
"And Im 16. "
I bet you never rode on it : )
Hey, I'm almost twice his age and I never rode on them!
I'm more than four times his age, and I rode it a lot!!
Not to mention the Lexington el.:)
I had the pleasure of riding the ''EL'' before it closed. I was really young,[about maybe 6],for us it was the short cut downtown,other than take the B52/38....I just came up to the city in '67,got my first taste of the subway by way of the A train.Never stop since!!!
I am exactly 3x his age, and I rode it on the last night Oct 3, 1969- and we still have the bulb (Mom), the fan (Dad) and the leather strap (me).
wayne
The mytrle ave El actually was cut back to Jay street in the 1940's. It use to go into Sand street station and across the Brooklyn Bridge.
The El was abandoned in October 1969. I use to live one block from the El near Vandabuilt Av Station and I rode the el with my father the last day of its revenue run from Jay street to Metropolitation av.
I was 14 years old at the time. It was a great ride on the ol wooden Q cars
You would have liked it much more if you could have ridden it on the open platform gate cars!
At the intersection of Myrtle and Grand, was there any leftover iron work that showed the brginning of the BMT Lexington Ave El?
The answer is YES, but there was less of it where they chopped it than at Marcy Avenue on the Willy B lead. Just the ends of the steel were there, but if you knew what to look for, you'd spot it. That was about halfway down the old line if I remember right and diverged off towards the south.
Also on the downtown side of the El ther was another turn out which belonged to the Park ave Line. that line was demolished around the turn of the last century. My cousin use to live in the apartment house on the corner and the remains of the park ave line actually angled up to the building from the Myrtle av El. The apartment house naturally was built after the el was demolished. but this was near the same location of the Lexington ave line.
Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember some other steel. Towards the end of the Myrt, it was often hard to tell whether it was excess steel or the stringers shifted. :)
yes I beleive it was at the navy st station, ashland place, that is where, if i am not mistaking , the 5th av El merged into the Myrtle av El
There is a shopping center at Myrtle and Grand with a traffic island on the eastern side of Myrtle Ave (basically, the sidewalk) where a pillar for the Lexington Ave el once stood. The island is still there, its design is somewhat uncommon, giving a clue to its history.
Also at the northwest corner of Grand and Lexington is a standing column for the Lexington Avenue el. The el turned over a building (cut the corner) here, when the el was demolished, the pillar in the building remained (and remains, at least as of my latest visit a year ago).
The Myrtle Ave El from Central Ave to the overpass at Broadway to the end of the curent structure at Lewis Ave was abondoned in 1969. The structure has been allowed to stay there mostly to keep the overall structure from collapsing.
The structure has been allowed to stay there mostly to keep the overall structure from collapsing.
LOL. (I don't know if it was meant to be funny, but it brought a smile to my face!)
Anyway, I think it also remained at that point because, the Tower was still in use on the upper level, and actually the mezzanine for the Myrtle station actually sits under the upper level's tracks. Removing the upper level would have meant rebuilding the tower in a different way, and also making a completely new fare control area for the Myrtle Ave station.
I think Bill covered the basics, but here's a photo of the trains that used to run on the old Myrtle el. (Although I don't know if I should be more excited seeing an R10 on the Jamaica line underneath - I never even knew they ran on the Eastern Division). Actually the upper level Myrtle line ran all the way to the Brooklyn Bridge via Myrtle Ave, but it did end in it's later years at Bridge-Jay Street/Mrytle (where the current ACF Jay Street Boro Hall station is). What is also interesting is that the gate cars were actually narrower like the IRT sixed cars (which run on the numbered routes). The stations from Myrtle to Metropolitan actually were served by both the regular sized cars, and the narrower IRT sized (BMT El) wood cars. They put little extenders under the doors of the cars to have less of a gap at those stations
30 R-10's ran on the J (15) in the fall of 1954 thru 1955 to acquaint BMT crewmen with the type of equipment they would be dealing with when the R-16's were delivered.
Thanks! Interesting. Although that dates the photo to about 1954 or so. It looks like the Myrtle El was already falling apart before the 50's (that deterioration shown on the Myrtle El in that photo had to start in the early 40's to get to that sorry shape by 1954!) The Myrtle El looks to be in worse need of paint than even the Livonia El looks like today!
I believe that the gate cars were replaced by the Q's in 1958.
Most of the els in Brooklyn in the 1940's-1950's looked liked they needed repainting back in those days.
Anybody noted the R10 came in two number batches, one for the BMT (3000's) and the other was for the IND (1800's after the last R9). Later the BMT ones were transfered to the IND and were not renumbered till the 70's.
I think that the R-10 3000 numbers were used because the 2000 series was filled with Standards in those days (1948).
Except for the 30 transferred temporarily to the BMT in 1954 all of the other 3000 series R-10s were always used on the IND A train back then.
I'm still trying to figure out that "paint scheme" on that R-10. You said the R-10s that ran on the Eastern Division kept their original two-tone gray paint job. Maybe that car is so dirty the paint has become obliterated.
Maybe we should page Mr. R-10, William Padron.
Don't go there ... had BigEdIRTmanL here at the house, we compared notes ... the R10's *SUCKED* ... just like I went through schoolcar on them and Ed has CONFIRMED they were even crappier than the 27's ... Mr. Padron and I can have words now. :)
Never ran the damned things, but they were a MISERY as a geese. Even WORSE for crews, now confirmed. Only people who LOVED them never had to RUN the pigs.
That section of the BMT is part of a section known as the eastern division. At one time most eastern division ran to Chambers Street (the other is 14th and 8th). So trains from Jamaica, upper Mytle, and Canarsie ran as rush hour special to Canal Street middle, Chambers Street middle, and Broad Street. These train hardly ran into the southern division.
As for the southern division, the Nassau Loop special would come up the 4th Ave subway via tunnel, into the Nassau Street Subway, and across the Manhattan Bridge on the south side and back on the 4th Ave subway. So the southern division did not go all the way into the eastern division.
Then came the Chrystie Street connection, the joint operation of BMT/IND division and the realinement of the southern division and eastern division. That was the start of the so called "M" service from Fresh Pond Road down into southern Brooklyn and other through service (such as the 95th and 4th Ave service to 168th Street Jamaica Ave - RJ service).
Phil Hom
Age 49
BTHS CP72
Rode the Q types in the 60s on the Myrtle from Jay to Middle Village.
Those who have young children: Do them a favor, and explore the city with them. I am most grateful that my Dad got me (age 7?) onto the last train from Park Row. I recall a crew swinging some sort of bumper into place after we arrived at Bridge-Jay. I didn't bother to copy down the consist and how the train was signed! Someplace I have a transfer issued at Bridge-Jay when we exited the station.
If the MTA proposed building the 3 Avenue el, how much would it be and how long will it take to build?
If the MTA proposed rebuilding the 3 Avenue el, how much would it be and how long will it take to build?
It would take no money at all, because such a project would never happen and no one would propose it.
Really. Why bring up an idea that's totally absurd?
And the NIMBYs wouldrise up like you would never belive it.
Elias
Actually, I'd expect that the Bronx wouldn't object to another el as much as other boroughs would. The Bronx is FULL of els and the folks are used to them. But the COST would kill the project, not the residents.
I wonder if he meant the Bronx or MANHATTAN!?
Yeah, good point. Manhattanites would DEFINITELY have a canary. But the Bronx portion of it (which I rode nearly every day) would probably be WELCOMED by the Bronxites ...
If they rebuid the 3rd Av El, they should build it to BMT/IND standards (to connect with the 2nd Ave Subway), with the stations being in the original pre-1973 spots. Also, they should make the el into a four track configuration rather than a 3 track.
Might be a problem with clearances along a good part of the route - the old three tracker put the el within a couple of FEET of many buildings along the way. Where I lived, you could climb out a second floor window and out onto the el. :)
But what you describe WOULD make sense if it could be done. I don't see that happening though. :(
Indeed, wasn't the third track removed as superfluous? Now a two-track El would be narrower and still let light onto the street...
Originally, the 3rd Ave El was a two-track, the third was added for expresses. I have some pictures somewhere in a book of the 2-tracks running literally on opposite sides of the street of the Bowery, circa 1890. Lots of light there!
I'll try and find it and scan if if I can over the weekend.
Well, in its final days, yes ... largely they were not used. Except for the NORTH end where trains were laid up at night and that was where I lived. 204th and north of there.
Now you *ARE* aware mate, that subtalkers would DEMAND a four track express El even if it ran through bedrooms. But I can assure you the chances of it being replaced are somewhat akin to winning the Irish Sweepstakes without buying a ticket. :)
Yeah, another reason that the R39's should have been ordered.
Yeah, only problem was that at the time the TA was faced with a choice - buy brake shoes and motors for the trains that were (almost) running or buy new cars. I think they chose wisely given the circumstances. The PITY is that they had to MAKE that kind of choice.
buy brake shoes and motors for the trains that were (almost) running or buy new cars.
That would've made for good express runs! "This train isn't stopping until it hits the buffer blocks!"
Don't wish for that, it'd put Thomas the Tank Engine on the damned IRT. :)
Which is a pity, since with today's technologies, they could be made to run much quieter, and I'd figure it would be cost-effective to build (maintaining is another story) compared to digging underground.
Never happen, in Manhattan that is. IIRC, the 3 Avenue El's presence was also in the Bronx. I don't think people would mind if it was rebuilt there. Wait, that would be bad with all of the additional ridership coming into Manhattan. Bad idea.
"Wait, that would be bad with all of the additional ridership coming into Manhattan. Bad idea. "
Not really so.... all of those people are coming into manhattan anyway.
I'd extend the Second Avenue Subway along 3rd Ave in the Bronx to Fordham University. But I'd make it a subway.
Elias
Assuming this is a hypothetical question, since the Douglas "L" (Blue Line) in Chicago is being essentially rebuilt, perhaps the CTA's cost numbers for that project would be a starting point to estimate the cost. If the Third Avenue el in the Bronx was rebuilt, it would make sense to connect it with the Second Avenue subway in Manhattan.
The only place you can rebuilt an el, or any type of open air line nowadays is in an area where there is already significant transportation noise/surface disruption.
Building over existing streets is a non-starter, but you could built it over something like an expressway, or in the Third Ave. el's case in the Bronx, the ROW of Metro North, which the old Third Ave. el pretty much paralelled along its upper end when it was running. An el along that right-of-way north of around the Cross Bronx Expressway might be allowed, but going south into the Hub area, the MTA would have to put it underground and also find some way to either merge it with the existing subway lines or make it part of the Bronx extension of the Second Ave. subway.
Or gather it all up in the Bronx (over the top of the Metro North -- I'm trying to stay TOTALLY above ground here) -- swing to the east and ride up over the FDR into Midtown.
I'd heard of the IND second expansion plan, in 1929. In fact, I'd heard of it many times.
But, I'd never heard of a 1939 expansion plan. I recently got the book: the SUBWAY a trip through time on New York's rapid transit by Stan Fischler. At the very back of the book is a map (dated July 5th, 1939) that details a number of plans for expansion. These include (impossible to tell the exact routes):
1. 2nd avenue line-full length in manhattan.
a. Line in the bronx that runs north first, then swings east, crossing the 3rd av, White plains and Pleham lines, then swinging parallel to the Pelham line for a while, then turning southeast and terminating at Harding Av.
b. New 60th st tube carrying trains to Queens Blvd.
c. Connection to Court St. of Fulton Av subway in Bklyn, via new East River tunnel.
2. Extension of Broadway Line. Through Central Park. Cuts over to Morningside Av at about the point 2/3 branch over to Lennox Av subway. To 125th St.
3. New 6th av tunnel. Runs north after 47-50sts thru central park (another line through Central Park! were they planning stops in the park?!?). Turns eastward to Queens, and nicks northern tip of Roosevelt av. Meets up with Queens Blvd at the point where QB locals turn east. (interesting to note that it doesn't run with the new 60th/59th st tunnel of second av. That tunnel connects to second avenue only!)
4. Extension of Lennox line to the Bronx to connect to Jerome Av line.
5. 2 Connections from Pelham line to White Plains Rd, one via 3rd av el in S. Bronx, and another connects midway through the line to the line at 180th. From the look of them map, they wanted the 'Westchester & Boston Line' to operate via the pelham line.
6. New offshoot of BMT in Queens. Line branches off North, and runs parallel to the Astoria line (west of it). Turns east, and meets the terminal of the Astoria line. Continues east. Called the "Long Island City/Horace Harding Blvd line". Terminates at Marathon Pkwy, near the Nassau county border.
7. Hillside line extended to little neck road.
8. Van Wick Line off of QB. To rockaway Blvd.
9. Rockaway line from about 71st continental on QB to the Rockaway branch of present day "A" line.
10. #7 line extended and split. College point line to College point causeway (in a roundabout manner at that). Bayside line to Bell Blvd.)
11. Extension of Nostrand Av IRT to Voorhies Av.
12. Construction of Worth St subway and Houston St subways into bklyn (S4 st tunnel shell). Runs east almost perfectly parallel to B'way bklyn el (looks like it's a replacement actually), until Myrtle Av. Meets up with the junction at B'way and Myrtle. Turns Southeast. Hits Fulton St subway at Utica (another shell from 2nd system IND). Extended southeast as "Utica Av line" to Floyd Bennett Field.
13. Fulton av subway extension. Liberty Av el left intact, extension from Euclid (apparently). Runs east all the way to 229th st terminal (includes a connection to the Rockaway line).
14. Ft. Hamilton Line. Branches off of IND at Church Av (F). Runs to 86th st. Includes a branch to staten Island (in the 60-70 sts). Staten Island branch runs north to Westervelt av and south to Grant St.
15. Interestingly, there is no note on the map of the Nassau St loop, even though it's supposed to still be there.
16. Ability for Southbound Lex trains to use 42nd st shuttle to move crosstown to 7th av.
First of all, I thought that maybe this was not real, I've never heard of this before, but it apparently was. It seems to never be brought up on this board, as evidenced by a number of extensions (revival of BMT's Broadway line to Uptown, Second av line with a link to queens) that are ignored in many posts.
So, I have to ask a few questions:
1. Has anyone else ever heard about this?
2. Are these plans drastically different from IND second system plans?
3. What are your thoughts about these plans?
Fischler mentions that the reason these plans were not carried out was the entry of the US into WWII. Aparently, we can add Hitler to the list of people who have robbed New Yorkers of a second Av subway.
It's amazing what the system could have looked like if not for the Depression and WWII. I have read that book and seen that plan, but don't know too much else about it, hopefully someone else will, but here are a few comments:
9. Rockaway line from about 71st continental on QB to the Rockaway branch of present day "A" line.
Actually I think there was an actual provision for this built into the Queens Line at 63rd Drive.
10. #7 line extended and split. College point line to College point causeway (in a roundabout manner at that). Bayside line to Bell Blvd.)
I believe that was to be the subway takeover of the old abandonned LIRR Whitestone Branch. A shame that didn't happen.
13. Fulton av subway extension. Liberty Av el left intact, extension from Euclid (apparently). Runs east all the way to 229th st terminal (includes a connection to the Rockaway line).
That's the extension that would use the famous "un-station" at 76th street, just after Euclid. Whether the station is there or not is debatable, but there is no doubt provision in the form of tracks built for the extension.
9. Rockaway line from about 71st continental on QB to the Rockaway branch of present day "A" line.
Actually I think there was an actual provision for this built into the Queens Line at 63rd Drive.
And I believe there used to be tiled signs "to the Rockaways" in the mezzanine that woukd have pointed you to this never built line.
--Mark
That tiled sign supposedly is still there, but it's been covered over.
The tiled sign was at 65 Street. It has been covered with a metal sign.
There is a book of NYC maps where one of the maps is the 1939 proposed subway route map that you described. I think the only difference between that map and the original IND Second System map is 10 years later NYC wasn't too sure about a new bunch of subway routes being built. Routes than were planned were cut back or altered because of the great depression. Some things were built such as the 76 St station on the route to 229 St. But those plans were postponed becase of the war. When the war was over plans were scaled back further and the portion of the route built was abondoned and sealed up. The lead tracks are still visable after Euclid Ave and the tower board at Euclid shows a proposed station.
I think the only difference between that map and the original IND Second System map is 10 years later NYC wasn't too sure about a new bunch of subway routes being built.
Other differences too. The Extensions of BMT/IRT lines were never included in the IND second system (obviously). This site has details for a 1940 expansion plan, but that has plans that are even further scaled back.
I pointed that out to Fred as our A train bound for Far Rockaway left Euclid Ave. When we reached the switch to the el leads, I told Fred that if you keep going down that same track, you'd hit a bulkhead and 76th St., if it's there, is on the other side.
Yes, I heard and saw this before, as I have the same map. That map is also in the back cover of Stan Fishcler's book, "The Subway."
It is more like a revision of the 1929 plan. There are proposed routes that were in the 1929 plan that were omitted from this version. Most of those omitted routes, however, were unfortunately IND Second System routings. The Winfield Spur, the Liberty AVenue El extension to Springfield Blvd., 120th Avenue line, and the IND branch of the 2nd Avenue line that was to go near the Co-op City area are some of the original routings elimintated. The Fulton Street extension to 229th Street was not in the 1929 plan, but in this one. The inclusion of the NYW & B to connect to the Pelham line is also new to this particular plan, as is the IND Ft. Hamilton connection to Staten Island.
It is a shame that historical circumstances--the Depression and World War II--prevented these lines from being built. Had either 1929 or 1939 proposal become a reality, NYC would've more subway coverage.
http://www.dullestransit.com/publications/reports/publichearing/index.cfm
I like this project, I lived in Fairfax County for a year and the one thing about the area that I admire is the Metro rail system. Especially the link with Reagan National airport, the Port Authority and MTA should study that train-plane link and incorporate it with the N train at LGA, the LIRR at JFK and the PATH at EWR.
Right up to the terminals is the best way.
I think I read someplace that 30-35% of travlers who fly from Reagan National airport use the Metro rail station, not too bad for such a small airport.
Imagine what kind of ridership there would be if the N train, PATH and LIRR went right up to the front doors of the terminals at EWR, JFK and LGA.
I've said it once, I'll say it again, Keep the LIRR out of New Jersey, we have New Jersey Transit, which is not, I repeat NOT part of the MTA and as such not due for any kind of name change in the immediate future. I like NJT, they run an ok ship, good enough for me. So NJT to the terminals at EWR, yes, LIRR, the PA would have kittens. And it's probably better to leave the 85 foot cars at the gate anyway, very very few airports have M-1s or MAH-1Hs in mind when they are designed. To them it's all, how can the passengers get too and from the planes quickly and securely, and can the ATC people see all airplanes on their property, not, 'If, in twenty year we decide that we have no more room for parking lots and want people to ride the train, should we design for sixty foot or ninety foot cars?.' I like ORDs approach, to have the EL come right to the center of the airport terminal, and have it's terminal there, then people can walk or grab a FREE people mover to the terminal that they want. PHL is the very odd exception, and even then it doesn't really seem to work, the service seems to be percieved as infrequent (which it isn't, at least for SEPTA regional Rail), and the R1 does not reach either end of the airport, instead sticking to the center terminals while the new International and Terminal F go without service (and Terminal F is WAY out there). To compound problems, PHL has no peoplemover, just some inter-terminal moving walkways that are sometimes slower than walking.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as condecending, just finished watching 'The West Wing,' I'll be walking around for a while now talking like Aaron Sorkin and wondering what to do about the Qumari freighter that's headed for Libya. Hopefully by the time I fall asleep I'll have remembered that it's a show, on TV, as in fake.
Oh yeah, can I add something?
No matter what happens, I hope the BRT idea dies a swift yet painful death, possibly along with whatever beltway genius came up with it. Theres a Transit Oxymoron for you, Bus Rapid Transit, yeah, I have never seen a bus travel fast enough to be 'Rapid' outside of Speed.
Die BRT, Die BRT!
So when you next visit LA ride the Metro Rapid RED Bus on Wilshire. When you have actually experienced how BRT can function,then your opinion will be more valuable. This does NOT mean I want BRT to Dulles, but there are situations where a well designed implementation can be quite useful.
I've ridden the Bus Tunnel in Seattle, probably one of the first Bus Rapid Transit systems in the country, and loved it. Heck, I think I wound up being among the first riders, maybe not, that was when I was 5, and my memory of that time is getting foggy. I don't think the BRT on Wilshire was there when my dad worked around there (that was like 1993 or so, when was the BRT installed?). I am a big fan of the bus tunnel, and, in an odd reversal of ideas, hope that the Sound Transit's light rail system, 'Link' keeps the heck out. In Seattle the BRT system works because it removes busses from the street while not needing an extensive rail system to connect to it at the portals, thus you get the benefits of a subway without quite the capitol investment, I have admit that the solution isn't great, but it's better than leaving them up on the streets.
In the case of Dulles, a heavy rail subway system is already in place, the Washington Metro, which offers excellent service (admittedly not on the weekend, but I'm assuming that that would have to change), to the Downtown Washington DC area. To go an build a dedicated ROW for the busses to the airport would accomplish little, since many of the riders would need to reach downtown at some point, and the BRT system would simply drop those busses and passengers on the already clogged streets of Washington DC. It is a much better plan to run the Orange line, which, from the times I've ridden it, has some capacity to give, and would give communities along the line access to a direct METRO ride to the city.
Well I found a place with similar very uncomfortable seats like the R40. Yeah the seating in Palisades mall had very low back seats, very uncomfortable. Not to mention all the seats and tables were dirty.
Even though it's miles from any rail station, I wouldn't recommend any railfan or shopping trips there. The mall reminded me of the Bowery station on the JMZ. Hardly saw anyone there, lots of stores with their gates down.
And the stores had very little stock to look at.
And their mock train kiddie ride sucks. Yeah I know the trains are kiddie rides, but if you want your kids to grow up into railfans, take them to the RF train ride instead. Removing all the hype, Palisades is just a larger version of the Westbury Source Mall.
Definately don't waste your time at the Emptysades mall!
If you noticed, there is a carousel at the Palisades Mall. Though it is quite beautiful, it isn't worh the ride since it is rather slow. The B&B Carousell at Coney Island is much, much better.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah I did notice that as well. Nobody was on it though. The carousell at Garden State is much nicer. I think they even have one at RF now.
But nothing can beat the B&B!
You're absolutely right when you say that you can't beat the B&B Carousell. That is perhaps the best carousel in the New York area.
#3 west End Jeff
The B&B Carousell at Coney Island is much, much better.
Yeah, I rode that for the first time this year! I was on a date and we wound up at the Aquarium in Coney Island - So of course how can you go to Coney Island and not ride the Cyclone! So we wound up on the Cyclone (my first time on that also - sort or embarrassing having lived in Brooklyn or Queens for most of my life), and finally wound up on the Carousell there. It was a lot of fun - a real old fashioned date (Hey, we even had Nathan's).
Fifth floor concourse in front of phoney TV station...roller coaster simulator...you know who was pegged to maintain it! Basement level...check out the floor cracks...one day the whole place will sink faster that Sovietsky submarine M-249 with a LOX explosion.
Yeah the floor on the first level had loads of cracks. So the mall is actually sinking!
Yeah I saw the RNN TV station too, no one was in the booth.
Again, I must be the only one in the world that thinks that the R40s have the best seats in the system.
Probably! But I also find the R143's to have fairly uncomfortable seats also, only second to the R40's.
While researching the answers to Merelis post I came accross some other items of interest.
Route EE Queens-Broadway Local began operating on Monday, November 27, 1967 and ran until August 27,1976. The last northbound train from Whitehall Street had eight R-16s. (n 6432,6441,6416,6491,6398,6430,6419 and 6482s. The last southbound train and the last EE of all ran from Continental Avenue to Canal Street and had eight R-38s. (s4031-30,4087-86,4066-67 and 4050-51n.
Route K Broadway/Brooklyn-6 Avenue Local began operating on January 2,1973 replacing the former KK Jamaica-Broadway/Brooklyn-6 Avenue Local. The last day for the K was also August 27,1976. The last train had the following cars starting at the 57 Street end.
Pressed Steel R-9s 1734,1722
ACF R-9 1659
Pullman R-7 1491
Pressed Steel R-9 1777
ACF R-9 1689
Pressed Steel R-9 1713
Pullman R-7 1476.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wow! Branford's 1689 was in that consist! ANOTHER little historic footnote there. THANKS! :)
Today another train meets another car.
As we close in my ominous anniversary of October 18th, we take what will hopefully be, a final look at a firsthand experience in a train/automobile collision. I have only fourteen years, one month and twenty days left to work in my career. So here’s hoping there are no firsthand experiences like this in the time I have remaining on the job. I would be more than willing to forego this topic as one to write about. And trust me; I could really live without having firsthand accounts of train/motor vehicle collisions as a topic.
I have searched high and low, but not to terribly low as time is a premium, to find my notes of this trip, but cannot locate them. Thus, today’s column, which took place in my Wisconsin Central days, is totally from the memory bank. Therefore, a few incidental details will be omitted. These details would include the train symbol, power, loading or even the date. It did occur in early 1990, about February I believe. I recall it was a very bitter cold evening and near dusk when this episode took place. I do recall the Conductor being Jeff Kreuger.
We had just departed Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac, WI and were heading east (timetable direction) through Fond du Lac en route to Chicago. The speed limit from Shops Yard to Valley Siding just outside of town east of Fond du Lac was 20 MPH. There were several industries and side tracks in the area in which the local could duck into the clear allowing main line traffic to pass. Being the operating system on this track was Centralized Traffic Control; any tracks used to clear the main line were required to have electric locked switches. Almost none of the switches in Fond du Lac were equipped with the electric locks, so the maximum allowable speed was the mentioned 20 MPH. Under the rules this was the highest speed allowed under such conditions in CTC territory.
Also, there were numerous road crossings as we basically passed through the entire length of Fond du Lac. A no whistle ordinance was in effect at any crossing that was equipped with automatic flashing lights and gates. We did have two crossings in town not so equipped. One of them was Pioneer Road on the east (south) end of town that had flashing lights and bells but no gates. The other was road in town (the name of which I cannot recall) that only had crossbucks and a stop sign. The road crossing at the west end of Valley Siding was also a crossbuck only crossing but outside of the city and town limits.
These above-mentioned crossings were given the whistle treatment and yours truly treated all of them as if they each were the crossing of an interstate highway when whistling them. Pioneer Road was a very busy road and I was surprised it did not have gates.
On the evening in question, Jeff and I were heading south with an extra manifest freight. As we approached the road crossing with the stop sign and crossbucks, I began to whistle my approach. As we closed in it, I observed a car approaching from my left. The driver appeared to be totally oblivious to the approach of my train as they never attempted to slow down nor even look in the direction of my approach; they just proceeded right across directly into my path.
As I had mentioned, it was a bitter cold evening with plenty of snow on the ground along with some snow and ice covered roads. While darkness was rapidly descending, I had enough light from the headlight on the engine and what was left of the available daylight to be able to clearly observe the driver. I could also see, or not see as the case was, no reflection in the snow of brake lights from the back of the auto.
Doing a rapid calculation in speed and distance, I knew there was no possible way the car would clear the crossing in time. I quickly put the train into emergency knowing full well there was no chance of getting stopped in time and certainly not before colliding with the car. This is that no man’s land, you know what you are attempting to do is futile and for naught, but you have to do it just the same.
The car passed directly in front of the engine and disappeared from my view. But sure enough, there was a loud "THUMP". We had just affected a meet at the crossing. right after we hit Jeff commented that the car spun completely around several times before coming to a stop. As there as plenty of ice and snow on the ground, the car spun rather effortlessly. When it came to a stop, the car was facing the opposite direction and was completely off the road. It was very likely the wintertime scenario played in favor of the driver after the collision as the automobile was easily pushed aside and then slid away from the train. As soon as we stopped, Jeff, after suiting up in his winter wear, headed back to the scene. In the meantime, I was contacting Shops Yard and the East End Dispatcher advising them of the situation and requesting assistance from the emergency response people.
The police responded quickly as did the paramedics. While the woman driving the car was injured, her injuries were not the life threatening kind. A police officer joined me on the engine to make out the report. The usual battery of necessary questions was asked and answered including speed, were the whistle and bell being sounded and the like. The Trainmaster from Shops Yard also made an appearance to assess the situation and to see if we were okay. He too asked the required questions and filled out some paperwork.
Upon my inspection of the front of the locomotive, there was evidence of a collision with the vehicle, but no serious damage. On the other hand, the car she was driving, a Ford Thunderbird was pretty well trashed and could not be driven at all. The left rear right behind the driver’s side door was smashed in with the trunk area pushed up. From what Jeff said, the frame was very likely bent.
The woman driving the car refused medical attention other than the first aid offered by the paramedics at the scene. While she didn’t suffer any type of life threatening injuries, Jeff said she did look like she had been beaten up with a baseball bat. She also shunned offers from the Fond du Lac Police to contact her husband about the situation. She told police that she didn’t want her husband to find out about this episode.
Okay, so when he gets home from work and right off the bat notices no car in the garage and his wife home, that should spark some curiosity. When he sees his wife looking like she met up with the loan shark’s collection agency regarding an overdue loan payment, do you really suppose he is not going to figure out something really bad happened? And then there are those pesky insurance people that are going to need forms filled out, copies of accident reports, a statement from the driver and of course, an estimate of damages to the vehicle. How did she suppose she could get around all of that without him finding out?
This woman was incredibly lucky, her car was creamed by a train and she lived to tell about it. And in all of this, was looking for ideas on how to cover it up and keeping her old man from finding out about it. I wonder if she ever took stock in this episode of her life and ever, if even just once, considered just exactly how fortunate she had really been during her momentary lapse of good judgment? Had I waited perhaps one second longer before putting the train into emergency, it could be entirely possible that we would have struck the car solidly in the driver’s side door and the odds of her surviving would have been greatly diminished.
In any event, the Mechanical people from the Shops Roundhouse came out to also inspect the engine and proclaimed it safe to operate. When the police and Trainmaster were finished with us, we were released and then proceeded on to Chicago, almost as if nothing had happened at all.
Almost.
But of course we all know that almost doesn’t count except in tidily winks, horseshoes and grenade fights.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2002 by JD Santucci
Why do people always try to beat trains? It defies all logic... Anyway, quite an intriguing story.
As a engineer friend of mine once remarked "When challenging a train at a crossing you can win, or you can lose. But, never, never tie."
Many a vehicle has lost a bumper to a locomotive, I've even seen video. I consider that a tie.
Nah, the spikes wouldn't hold in a bumper. :)
This person appears to have fallen asleep at the wheel.
AEM7
You know, handle time on the R-9 this weekend was more fun than life-changing, obviously, but it did make me think. One of the things I like about desk work is a certain lack of responsiblity. There is one and only one reason I wouldn't apply for a T/O job, and that's because I probably won't hurt anyone with my desk. Not being glib here -- just some people can handle the power and weight of a train and others (like me) just need to stay away.
Aw c'mon ... you did OK ... you should attend TA school car. More taking of dumps than a cheesy Mexican restaurant. "In the hole" ain't just the maintenance pit, it's another word for "BIE" ... you did FINE, you were just nervous and unfamiliar with the train.
Arnines are strong stuff, they're nowhere near as forgiving as SMEE and computerized trains. You need to have the time to feel them out. As someone who actually was a motorman, I was doing as poorly as many of the "newbies" just from not working them. If you'd had the chance to do a few more runs, you would have fallen right into the groove. Thanks to Unca Lou, the INexperienced did better than the EXPERIENCED! Now THAT'S a testimony to one HELL of a GREAT motor instructor! :)
Had nothing to do with the driving style. I've flown gliders, and Lou is a great instructor, and I'd love to get the feel of that brake (how do you sneak an L-9 onto the IRT Lex line?)
No, Selkirk, I want you to GUARANTEE me no one is going to get pushed on to the tracks EVER in the course of a forty year T/O career. Does any public vehicle operation job, even in the safety-obsessed airline industry, come with a guarantee like that?
Nope ... and I was a conductor on a train that had a leaper dive under it - lost one HELL of a great motorman and buddy as part of the deal. Guy totally lost it, had 20 years on the job. As to R-9's on the Lex, I'd *PAY* to see that. :)
I think it was fairly clear from the article that the woman was paying no attention to the train whatsoever.
she had her windows rolled up 'cause it was cold
she probably had her radio on
today it might even be a cell phone
Living in a fog all her own, until all of a sudden the fog lifts and you are face to face with St. Peter!
Elias
Believe it or not some people think it is a game to play chicken at a railroad crossing, but people never will realize it's a game that you'll lose very quickly, and in most cases the game truly is over and can't be played again!! People never learn....they think trains can stop on a dime or steer around them.....dead wrong!! All of this and for what....a cheap thrill?? Being extreme?? I say being extremely stupid!!!
The train *always* wins. :(
Someday people will understand that!! What's worse are the people who play chicken on the tracks WITHOUT motor vehicles....the people who constantly trespass where they shouldn't be!! I have seen so many near misses at Forest Park in Queens on the LIRR Montauk line it isn't funny, and for whatever reason the Parks Department created pathways (dirt paths) in the park that grade-cross the right-of-way, and the kids in the area find that to be a nice spot to mess around in, and there are no "W" posts on the right-of-way to warn the engineer to sound the horn when approaching. One time 3 kids almost got nailed by a GP38-2 coming around the bend with an eastbound in 1999 when I watched the afternoon train come thru from the Park Lane overpass, and they cleared the track maybe seconds before their lives would have been tragically cut short, and man you had to hear the sound-off that engineer gave them with the horn. The sound of a diesel horn alone should tell a sensible person to stay away!! But no one ever learns, and as you said, in a match with the train, THE TRAIN ALWAYS WINS!! :-( unfortunately!!
Operation Lifesaver is a good place for folks to get a clue:
http://www.oli.org/
Even with Operation Lifesaver they don't get it!!
Sadly, that's about as good as it gets. When OL went out to schools around the area, crews USED TO show them the locomotive BEFORE it gets hosed down. Of course, in these "sensitive, compassionate, politically correct times" that would warp their wittle minds, so instead, Conductor Darwin gets to punch their ticket. I guess that's an improvement. Don't mind me if I don't get it. :(
I was at the scene of a highway accident (no trains involved) and the woman (she was on ETOH) did not want her mother to find out. I said to her "Fine, I won't be seeing your mother anyway. But she will read all about it paper tomorrow morning anyway."
Sheesh!
I was at the scene of a highway accident (no trains involved) and the woman (she was on ETOH) did not want her mother to find out.
What's ETOH?
What's ETOH?
Ethanol (grain alcohol)
The chemical shorthand for Alcohol. Easier for cops to write and spell... and the geese don't get to know what you are talking about. 10-4?
Elias
A friend of mine who's an engineer with CN (ex-WC) told me this story. It took place on the northwest side of Chicago, along the Kennedy Expressway. At one point along the expressway you've got the Kennedy with the C&NW Northwest Line running along its southern edge, and a side street (I think Avondale) running along the southern edge of the tracks. From Avondale, you can look to the north and see traffic on the Kennedy over the railroad.
Well, one day someone who was hopped up on something was driving along Avondale and looked to their side and saw the Kennedy. Naturally, they decided they needed to be on the Kennedy, and decided to try and drive right over the railroad tracks (they probably didn't even see the tracks). The car got stuck, and the driver got out and wandered away. Meantime, a dinky comes coasting along and the engineer sees this car sitting on the tracks hundreds of yards from any grade crossing. The locomotive, an F40PH, hit the car with such an impact that the car actually got mushed into the ground and curled up behind the pilot of the locomotive! The car was cut to ribbons.
The police arrived on the scene and were soon trying to figure out whose car it was, since it was unoccupied. The car's trunk had been filled with miscellaneous paperwork, which was now spread around the ROW. The cops found something with the driver's number on it (they supposed), called his house and got a description from his girlfriend. Lo and behold, the (still drugged-up) driver was one of the people standing around watching the proceedings! He was nabbed pretty quickly.
Frank Hicks
Just posted the photos I took in Branford this week end.
Here are some:
The "Line Up"
Arnine in the woods.
No foaming section.
The changing of the rollsign.
My turn at the "Handle"
Just my two cents 1, 2, 3
...and more
Enjoy,
-Larry
A job well done with the photos. Wish I could have been there, but I took my TA holidays and used them for Autumn in NY. Work comes first! I see someone had 6688's signs set for the shuttle. It's the way I had them set a few weeks ago....
Gosh, 1689's got super wheels, flattening pennies with ease.
-Stef
Wow, how'd you get such a close look at a R62A wheel to make such an observation? Also, Are they testing R142's on the TS->GC Shuttle ( since you said that you set the side signs to "Shuttle")
Right numbers, wrong R-Types. Read NotchIt's post and click on the link to his photos.
-Stef
I feel so stupid... Everyone is talking about vintage trains, and here I come with a totally wrong post. Sorry for wasting your time reading my message.
Geez, not a problem, guy ... don't mind us frothing about our beloveds. I wonder if any of the modern toasters on wheels would make a DENT in a coin? :)
I wonder if any of the modern toasters on wheels would make a DENT in a coin? :)
Derailment.
Heh. I'll bet anyone who looked at that picture back there had a revelation of almost religious qualities. The COIN was wider than the wheel contact, and NO contact of the wheels on the rails where the coin was. Folks don't get to see that often. :)
Yes, nothing flattens pennies like an R-9 :-)
Probably the heaviest car in the fleet, standard included. :)
BMT standards outweighed the R-1/9s by up to 15,000 pounds per car.
Yeah, but 2775 does have a dose of Redbirditis and I'd be worried about it turning to dust if it hit a troll booth. :(
Geez, I can't even tell Lincoln was on that coin! Sure it's not an Indian penny? :)
Well, if it's the one someone bummed off of me, it's got the Queen on one side and a maple leaf on the other :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>Yes, nothing flattens pennies like an R-9<<
I have a penny that was flattened by a GG-1 at South Amboy about 20 years ago. Paper thin !
Bill "Newkirk"
That gives new meaning to the term "folding money".
6688's present "paint job" sorta reminds me of London Underground paint schemes ....
--Mark
It's just the yellow aluminum primer on those doors, will be red soon.
Wow! Coolness on a stick! GREAT shots!
I see you even have Nancy (bingbong) taking out a load of geese:
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st/pages/bera-st550.htm
She'll be thrilled in the morning when she sees this. :)
You can see the Mets emblem on my jacket through the window.
Nancy did a great job at the handles.
Yeah, I married the PERFECT foamerette ... and that's none other than "Other Side of the Tracks" Harry Beck at the prime foamer glass. He did VERY nicely running 1689 as well. Did ya SEE that smile on his face when he got to the end of the run and came out of the cab? That too was priceless. :)
As I told Nancy, Harry earned every bit of handle time. Thanks to his TOSOTT bulletin board, we had someplace to go earlier this year.
Dunno if someone else posted already, but Unca Harry put up his own collection of pictures from Branford over on his site:
http://www.nycrail.com/
And it ain't pictures of the foamies either...But have to give a
thumbs up to those that took the "Mineola" tour with the Hak,
particularly loved the shot of "Augies" privie seat raised.
For those of ya on this board that haven't ever been to "Shoreline"
take a glance at our collection. Thanks to the "Docents" to
Sub~Talkers for showing off the collection. Good...Bad...or Indifferent.
Also thanks to Notch It for his set of photos from that memorable
Sunday also. They can be found easily on "The Other Side of The
Tracks" Message Board under posts from "Sunday at Branford".
If someone can plug the link in, would appreciate same. Thanks.
;| ) Sparky
Here's the link: SUNDAY AT BRANFORD
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
Thanks for the link. Put Harry's and Larry's views together,
we had a BLAST on a drizzly Sunday at Branford.
Thanks guys.
;| ) Sparky
Glad you enjoyed the photos.
Just got a new film scanner, once I get it hooked up, maybe I can scan some of my old Branford film.
-Larry
Larry,
Nice collection of photos, thanks for sharing.
See you caught Joe Roth doing trolley duty & BMTman looking like a Conductor giving directions ... "young man you can't get to the Green line from here"
Nice shots Larry, thanks.
I noticed everyone was admiring BMTman craftsmanship work on 1227 on this photo.
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st/pages/bera-st430.htm
Paul
Nope. That's the wrong end, Paul! My end has no gaps in da wood! :)
Can I interest you in some black Congoleum with sparkles? :)
LOL. Couldn't tell which end it was from the photo.
Paul
Thanks for putting them up! Selkirk went and downloaded them all already, so we've got our set. Who ran over the pennies?
Will we see you next year?
:o)
I believe it was you who ran over the pennies. :-)
Already planning to be there next year!
I remember as a kid going to Wellington Ct., near the Ave. H station on the Brighton line, where the street was level with the tracks, and putting pennies on the track with a plastic spoon tapped to a stick.
Always had a hard time finding them after the train went by though.
Very nice pictures! I have a queston about the photo reproduced below. Pray tell, what is that car under the red tarp behind 2775?
Thanks! -Frank Hicks
It's a vintage convertible. Needs a LOT of work. The other end of the tarp is exposed, and the wood on the roof is rotted away. Hopefully something can be done, but it's going to take a LOT of $$$$.
"It's a vintage convertible."
Hmm... that narrows it down to TARS 220, TARS 884 and BRT 4573. Since two of those cars operate, I'm guessing it's 884. Did I win the prize?
Frank Hicks
Frank, I think it is one of the Brooklyn Elevated convertibles, no idea which one though.
Steve
Outside would be 1362, a BRT el car convertible as well as Instruction Car 999. Last I checked, 884 was in the barn.
BTW, can anyone point me in the right direction to IRT Loco #62? I've been a member for four years and I still don't know where it is.
-Stef
The last time I saw S-62 was 1986 and it was on the runaround behind barn 6, I took a picture of it, I will post it on the webshots album. Bring cookie bags...it was pretty rough back then. As luck would have it I will be up anyway..my 15 month old is being difficult this evening..
Steve
Stef, its there now.
Steve
Thanks!
-Stef
Still trying. Here's a shot of 1362, years before it was tarped. Did I get my HTML right?
-Stef
I give up. Let me stop trying this HTML. I can't seem to get it to work with Steve's pix.
-Stef
This one worked, Stef... not sure why you think you're having problems!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It may be my browser.
-Stef
You poor guys are going nuts here for no good reason. Here's the deal - you probably went to the site ahead of posting, checked the picture in your browser and all was fat dumb and pretty. So you came back here, posted, checked your post, the picture was there so you hit the "POST" button and you were done.
The PICTURE was at that site, so once you'd actually GOTTEN the picture, it was sitting there in your browser's cache ready to display every time you looked. The SITE that the picture is on apparently doesn't allow "remote linking" direct to the picture and thus denied access to it from the link here on subtalk. Since you already HAD the picture in your browser cache, the browser dutifully loaded it from the cache on your machine every time you called it so it worked for you because you already HAD the picture, whereas anyone who didn't already have the picture got a broken link.
Wasn't YOU, Stef ... it's the way browsers along with sites that won't allow a direct link work. But don't go beating yourself there, the SITE you have the pictures on is the problem. :)
Now there's something you don't see a lot....
A BMT Convertable trained with a North Shore 700.
I suspect that the problem lies with Webshots, not with your coding.
When I did the Cut&Paste thing again with this shot, once it showed up on the screen, it was there in your post.
Go Fig #2
Dan,
We do come up with some "ODD Couplings" on occasion at Banford.
We isn't all "Streetcars" >G<
;| ) Sparky
At IRM a couple of years ago we had a pretty neat train. Two of the CA&E heavy wood interurban cars that were ready for service were stuffed behind Indiana RR lightweight #65, and we couldn't find anyone qualified on #65. We figured we could push it out of the way and leave #65 on the tail track while we were in service all day, then couple up and pull it back into the barn. The problem was that the CA&E cars had Van Dorn couplers and the 65 had Tomlinsons! After finding an adapter and physically raising #65's coupler with a jack to enable them to couple, we were able to push the lightweight out of the way. (We also had to tie #65's pole off to the side so that it wouldn't go through the train door window!) Oof.
Frank Hicks
Back in those days #1362 was sort of a meeting place in the winter. Meals would be made there at the end of the day for members staying overnight in the L&NE cabosse or Sprague. Yep you could do that back then. I think town zoning laws changed and memebers are no longer allowed to stay on the property. 709 just happened to be spotted behind #1362 when Dad took the picture. Would make a great train though!!! But I bet 1362 would be a little slow compared to 709 :)
Steve
I think town zoning laws changed and memebers are no longer allowed to stay on the property.
If indeed that's the case, don't tell the town about a certain Track Superintendent...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>"don't tell the town about a certain Track Superintendent..."<<<
or about a feeble minded light bulb changer either.
;| ) Sparky
Ahh, him too? Didn't know he was a hobo... figured he stayed in his van :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh that's right, he was deposed, when #12 left to go to L.I.
;| ) Sparky
Drill Motor #62 is way out back, the last car on the round around track (vs. 2775, etc. which are on #64).
I'll forward the link to Steve's site (I just looked at the photo he was talking about).
Isn't there another sweeper back there? I must be as blind as a bat.
-Stef
Thurston,
Come again...as to the location of S-62. The last thing on the
run around track, most easterly is Yonkers Sweeper #59.
;| ) Sparky
Right, on the one track is SBK #4, then the Sweeper, but on the track next to it is the Drill motor at EOT.
O.K.>>> Gotta check that one out. Is S62 covered.
;| ) Sparky
No & don't go there, you'll be upset :-(
Hey Frank, did you notice the car behind the covered one? It's CTA's 4280. It's in pretty sad shape. Lots of exterior rust.
Here's a better view of 1362.
Two weeks ago I tryed to put most of the trap back on & re-tied down the sides. A temporary measure ... the old tarp is about worn out.
Hey, that's me to the left of Selkirk in the "No Foaming Section" photo!
Yeah, I was surprised that the Branford railroad cops didn't throw us off the danged train for being there. But then again, the Branford rail cops were already busy. Heh.
Hey, that's me to the left of Selkirk in the "No Foaming Section" photo!
And that's me cranking the rollsign in The Changing of the Rollsign.
I finally got my own photos posted-
http://www.geocities.com/sockanosset4/bera/subtalk
Just went, they've already shut you down for "too many hits" ... geocities is a horrible place to set up a website if you have more than one visitor a month. :)
Well Kev, looks like that's you working the doors and testing the PA on 6688.:)
Heh. SNAGGED ... yeah, always handy having the right keys and handles for whatever the task there is to be done. :)
Thanks for chiming in Mike.
We now have the photographic views of Harry, Larry & Mike.
A small but dedicated group of enthusiasts gathered together
on a rather dismal day weather wise. Again and sounding
redundant thanks to all for participating, for without
you, it wouldn't have been possible.
Are we ready for the Spring Encore on Sunday March 30, 2003???
;-) Sparky
I for one can't make it next March, but could come out if an encore is held on Nov. 1.
I would love to make it on March 30 , 2003 , and probably will, as long as there is no snow! Maybe I can get some "handle time".
Chuck Greene
Chuck,
Handle time comes with subscribing to a regular or higher membership.
If you are a current member, a contribution to the Charter Cost
will be solicited. Everyone pays a share of the costs for the day.
;-) Sparky
I'll be there even if I need to bring a bicycle pump for air. :)
We now have the photographic views of Harry, Larry & Mike.
Thanks. Still waiting (im)patiently for Steve's photos now...
One of these days, Alice, one of these days....:) Maybe I can at least have one of my colleagues at work scan the last group photo I took.
Say, is anyone working on a report on Subtalk Day? I'd be glad to write one as long as I don't leave anyone out. Respond or email me privately if you were there, especially if you had handle time on 1689.
Those that I know of for a fact who were there:
myself (had handle time)
David Cole (had handle time)
Harry Beck (had handle time)
Kevin (roused 1689 and piloted her) & Nancy (handle time on 1689 and 6688)
Lou from Brooklyn (tireless instructor)
BMTman (had handle time)
Thurston (did you have handle time?)
Anon_e_mouse (had handle time)
Sparky (tireless dispatcher)
Larry Redbird R33
On the Juice (had handle time, right?)
Anyone else?
Anyone else?
umm..
Myself,
Larry Fendrick(handle time)
(who posted the images that started this thread) LOL
Larry,
Please post the names of the two young ladies, so we can list them
as participants in the event.
;-) Sparky
Sure, That would be my girlfriend Marie (notchette), and her daughter, Deanna.
-Larry
Thanks Larry,
Now Steve can add it to the list of participants.
;-) Sparky
Will do.
Steve,
I says go for it, write the report for SubTalk.
Others that I know who participated were:
Jeff Rosen [Sgt. Jeff]
Peter The Pole
Joe Roth [a participant w/o a computer, joined us and paid his dues]
Jeff H [your docent for Auggies Car, "The Mineola"
Mike F
Bill Newkirk [Mr. NYC Subway Calendar]
Subway Surf [ANDEE]
Handle time will have to be filled in by the TSS of the Day,
Big Lou from Brooklyn. I was on the ground, so I can't fill
in those blanks.
Hope this helps you.
;-) Sparky
As usual, when compiling a list, there will be omissions. So get
the wet noodle ready and chastise me for the oversights.
Others present at the "SubTalkers" Sunday at Branford included:
The Andersen's - Bob and Linda
[left early, no handle time, but have a raincheck.]
Mike P. [RIPTA42HopeTunnel] who also posted his photos of the event.
Another, who reinstated his membership and was given handle time
on 2001. [Never caught his name or handle].
;-) Sparky
TSS?!?! You mean MOTOR INSTRUCTOR, don'tcha? I thought Branford was above those wimpy broadbanded titles. :)
I only call them, what they desire ... He a TSS ... when in
Lost Wages, get a cap that says he's a BERA RTO, not Motorman.
so he's a TSS, not Motor Instructor. If the hat fits ...>G<
;-) Sparky
Wowsers ... well then, that's even better! However, be warned, if anybody calls me a "train operator" I'll have a dialtone in their ears so fast, they'll RING. :)
You'd say, "Hey! I resemble that remark.":)
I is a TSS also, a Trolley Services Supervisor [Dispatcher] in
TA parlance.
;-) Sparky
Dang! You just banged yourself in there, out of title. Of course you realize this means a demotion and cut in pay. :)
Oh no, I'm back to six oooooo's in the annual. >G<
;-) Sparky
True, Motor Instructor is the better term since -- with the exception of 1227/G -- there are no "trains" at Branford...;)
On occasion there is a LO/9 a/o HI/LO/9, no trains, phoey.
;-) Sparky
The RARE exception...not likely to be seen much again...:(
I'll bring chains ... let's see if we can drag 6688 for a four car. I *refuse* to ceed to the damned BMT being "kink of da hill". :)
Isn't it great that Branford allows you to be LOGICAL? :)
Heeeyyyyyy .... wait a minute ... I've been bamboozled ... what would you call 1689 and 5466? A BUS? Just for that, we're going to see about fixing up the pair of 1300's just to spite ya, then add 999 and we'd have five cars. Let's see you hit the mark THEN, wise guy. :)
Nyuknyuknyuk
Here's a sum of several posts:
- CREW:
-- Sparky, Dispatcher
-- Lou from Brooklyn, Pilot
-- Thurston
-- BMTman
-- Anon-E-Mouse
-- Jeff Rosen
-- Piort the Pole
-- Joe Roth
- STAFF:
-- Bill Newkirk
-- Andee
-- RIPTA42Hope Tunnel, aka Mike
-- Larry Red Bird
-- Jeff H, technical assistance & special tour
- GUESTS, but will be staff for future trips:
-- Selkirt Kevin
-- Mrs Selkirk
-- Bob Anderson
-- Linda Anderson
-- NotchIt
-- Notchette
-- Deanna
-- Mike Fendrich
-- On The Juice
-- David Cole
-- Jeff (he got piloted for a couple of trolley runs)
And Harry Beck... guest this time, staff the next...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Geez, here we go again, no matter who or how many times we do
this list, we miss someone.
Also, let's not forget under crew, the Superintendent, who
processed the newbies fortwith so that they became staff.
;-) Sparky
... let's not forget under crew, the Superintendent ...
Yes, he deserves a big round of applause from everyone involved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You spelled my name wrong :-)
Son of a ..... Ander, sorry about that.
Unfortunately the name of your website was also spelled wrong, with an extra "R" in LIRR!!
Well, if the MTA has their say, I won't have to worry about that.
www.mtarailhistory.com???
(You know, someone should grab up and register that domain name right now!!)
If you can adjust Nancy from "Mrs. Selkirk" to "Bingbong" that'd help ensure that I can come BACK. :)
I've billed you two as SelkirkTMO and Bingbong in my report.
Good! Means that I can come back and play now some day. :)
"Mrs. Selkirk" just wouldn't have bought it.
Sorry, but I have trouble calling such a nice lady BingBong :-(
I'd have to agree with you on that. However, if that's what Nancy likes to go by, so be it.
"Nancy" is OK too ... it's the "Missus Selkirk" thing that'll get you smacked across the head with a handle. But we don't care WHAT we're called as long as we get to run the train for a while. :)
Don't forget AVID READER, lurking from afar.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, but was AVID READER there on 10/13?
He said he was.
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
What is Avid Readers given name?
;-) Sparky
Dan.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, I can confirm his presence ...
Isn't Avid and heypaul one and the same? ;)
That's what some believe. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
There were three "steam" lurkers later that day, after you egressed
the property and only Jeff B. reinstated his membership. The other
two chose not to participate in the "Gathering of SubTalkers", maybe
one of the two was "Avid Reader"? >IMO<
;-) Sparky
That's what he said in his post.
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
>>>"That's what he said in his post."<<<
What post? I just looked in the archieves and could not locate
a post other than a reference to the weather of the day from
Avid Reader.
;-) Sparky
ANDEE,
Disregard the previous inquiry, located the post on "Other Side
Of The Tracks". I think I understand why he stayed in the background, now.
;-) Sparky
It was over at Harrys HERE IT IS, about half way down.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then I've taken Avid for a ride ... ohhhh
Wouldn't be da foist time! Neener neener ... GLAD to have met HeyPaul, whoops, I mean Avid Reader (might as WELL perpetuate the myth) ... GLAD to have done the "you Avid? You Selkirk?" number ... and yeah, he can actually FOG a MIRROR ... (note the avoidance of "yeah, but how many POLITICIANS can?") ... I'm TRYING to be good. :)
Finally got to see them! THANKS! We need to talk, bro ... methinks you've got an obsession. :)
... methinks you've got an obsession. :)
Lots, and none of them healthy.
Dewwwwwwwwd. We gotta have you up for a visit someday. :)
Thanks for the shots - we've got ours back as well but bingbong needs to find some time to scan 'em in ... we didn't bag many though. Still had a GREAT time though, let's do THAT again! (grin)
Dewwwwwwwwd. We gotta have you up for a visit someday. :)
Kewl... now how can I rig up an internal combustion engine and rubber tires on an R-17?
I'm pretty sure I took a pic of you at the handles with a dead serious look on your face. I know Nancy did.
Blackmail photos, eh? Yeah, I noticed EVERYONE who had experience in running trains had that "where's my air?" mug. Schoolcar DOES breed fear and the need to pay attention when rolling. You "amateurs" will get religion the first time you derail, hit a ball or smack something. :)
Just for the benefit of others, I'll explain what was going on in that pea-sized brain of mine. When you're running (especially at Branford owing to the 90 pound rail) you've got to watch your iron, keep an eye out for rail breaks, make sure that your switch points ahead are in your favor, then there was the calculation of where the pole was behind me for the section break (power down until the puck passes the junction, I couldn't see the lights or hear the relays, so I had to calculate it) as well as calculate my time after letting her rip so I'd be at 10 MPH hitting the curve, things like that.
You folks new to it had good old Unca Lou telling you where to apply, where to wrap it and was doing the eyeball work for ya. I wanted to see how much I remembered, so that's why I had a zillion things going through my mind at the time and was so "focused" there. First time out on that railroad for me. But yeah, you're actually busy in the cab on a normal run. Branford makes for even more mental exercise and I *loved* it! :)
You are right there Kevin. All the things you have to keep in mind makes it a challenge to operate the big stuff ... heaven help us if we damage the line or the car.
I probably operated the slowest on the return, because of a trip where a branch snagged the trolley rope on a IRT car, on a DRY evening. It bent the pole, we had to limp back to the High Platform with me pulling the pole off the wire at every spanner while the BMTman was holding me on the car. Don't want to ever do that again.
In addition, when your the guys that do the Gandy Dancing you tend to go even slower thru the curves and over the switches.
BTW, my friends will be quick to add that I do push it a little on the streight track, that's the fun part.
That's why I wanted to do an outbound run! Lou had me wrap it on the straightaway on my first turn and I could feel the car accelerate.
Next time I'm doing an outbound run no matter what.:)
I'll swap you an outbound for an inbound. I like having to come to a nice smoothie at the points and then take it at 4MPH ... warming the grids is fun too, makes hot water for tea. Outbound, you just roll until you run out of track, Inbound you've got homeball alley and lotsa iron to check out before you split the switch. To me, that's more fun but then everybody knows I'm not well anyway. :)
Speed schmeed ... it's the yard moves that are fun.
Well, I've done a grand total of three runs (one each on 5466, 1689, and 6688) and all of them have been inbound... I want to do an outbound one just to see what it's like :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Be happy to split that run with ya next chime then. Besides, compressor breaker's on the 2 end. I can have some fun with ya. Moo. :)
"All right, who's the wise guy?"
KEV!!!!!!!!
You'll never notice until that last application fades. Boowahahaha ...
[I probably operated the slowest on the return...]
A first...:) LOL
Yeah, I have a LOT of respect for the car and the line and though I haven't had my own bad experience there yet to make me gun-shy, the TA provided one. Any asshole can make a train go, it takes some skill to STOP one though. :)
But now I know why you and Lou were both so obsessed with tying down the rope the way you did - in my own blind ignorance, having it wedged in the rubber would have satisfied me. Now I've been properly Paul Harveyed as to the "rest of the story" ... danke schoen!
Very nice Mike ! Thanks for sharing.
Three that I particularly liked:
- 357 BMTman rushes to chow down
- 629 The Smith Brothers at your service
- Harry Beck, great shot of him.
Ya KNOW what did it for me? It was the shot of GM bus 1257 with "R.R. Station" on the rollsign. What a PERFECT foil for me personally when I describe it as "The bus from VOORHEESVILLE to the Joe Bruno Rensselaer Amtrak Station" to friends ... I'd link to the picture, but Yahoo/Geocities is a festering boil on the buttock of offsite linking. But it's a GREAT picture, sad testimony for the condition of the bus. Once again, LACK OF MONEY to restore it to its proper glory that should be recitified by someone who *HAS* some money. :(
You could say the same thing about BMT standard 2775 and CTA 4280.
Kevin,
Bus 1257 is basically for parts. 1491 is in the process of
solicitation for restoration at this time. I'm sure the
curtain can be removed from one to the other. Besides,
this is SubTalk not BusTalk. >G<
;-) Sparky
Oh, the ROLL SIGN was a perfect bit for me to claim to folks around here where I live that 1257 *is* the bus they'll be running to the Joe Bruno Rensselaer Amtrak station if only CDTA could AFFORD a bus after blowing their transit wad on Joey's penis on the Hudson there. So I was playing it as a steel wheel game for laughs and giggles. Personally I despise rubber tires unless I own them. You saw my mug like a kid at Kissmoose when 1689 rolled. :)
1257 is the donor bus for 1261 (thought I'm sure some parts are usable on 1491 as well; I'm not up on the differences between a TDH4512 and a TDH5105, but they don't look much different to me).
Mike
Well, your more into internal combustion vehicles at the Shore Line
Transit Museum, then I. I gonna change the title and our resident
bus aficionado Hart Bus may chime in. He was giving me a lesson at
Double A in August, but it's not me thing.
;-) Sparky
Sparky----This is an easy question on Bus-Talk, a place you should visit once in a while.
Briefly so I'm not thrown off this board GM's numbering system was the following
First letter T meant a "transit" bus as opposed to "S" suburban (no middle door, no lavatory, no underbody luggage holds, but plusher seats and overhead racks for small packages
Second letter D meant "diesel" as opposed to G for "gasoline
Third letter H meant "hydromatic" GM's name for their automatic Transmissions as opposed to M for "manual'.
First two numbers -- 45 meant a 40 passenger, 35 foot bus ---51 meant a 45 passenger 40 foot bus.
Last two numbers represented the model in the series.....4512 was the 12th model of a 40 passenger bus.
So now you know that the 4512 is shorter than the 5105.
For more info including the original delivery dates and who the first owner was visit www.omot.org > enter > bus production lists > and pick the model you want.
R U coming up to Shoreline Sat. with Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, BMTman and myself ?
Until next time,
Hart Bus
and IRRC even no's were narrower than odd--for instance DC Transit operated the wider models within DC only but the 8?" narrower units into MD per ICC regs
Close the model widths were and are either 96" or 102".
www.omot.org doesn't give the width on all the GM old looks.
Al,
You want a trolleynaut to post on BusTalk. Honestly, I do visit
but I'm not a registred poster on BusTalk. Besides the question,
came from a member of a Transit Museum in reference to a bus in
the collection at Shore Line. Nothing offensive to all on this
board, but I knew Al read this board and that's why I posted the
question here.
Most likely, I will not be about this weekend at Shore Line.
The "Chief Dispatcher" has been indulgent in October. Look
where I've been seen this month, Baltimore Streetcar Museum,
SubTalkers @ Branford, Rockhill Trolley Museum Route 23 Trip
in Philadelphia. Also mind you, that I either Spatch or Operate
for all "Santa on the Trolley" Saturdays, post Thanksgiving and
do some weekdays, if 3 or more groups visit.
Will be looking for you thought on the sixteenth at the annual
BERA Pow Wow.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
You are registered on BUStalk. It's the same user name/password combo you use on SUBtalk.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks ANDEE,
I just haven't really tried to post on Bus~Talk ... They'd send
this Trolleynaut Out of Town without his "Pole".
Same question for you as Al HART Bus, will we see ya at the
Annual BERA PowWow???
SHALOM
;-Sparky
Hey Sparky, now that you've been given the word start posting. Become a wierdo like the rest of us and get carried away. It
is loads of fun.
Fred,
I spend toooo much time on this board. Now you want
I should visit the opposite.
SUB=BUS=SUB or whatever???
;-) Sparky
For some reason, after all these years, I just noticed that BUS is SUB spelled backwards! Ain't that a coincident?
And it took SubTalk-BusTalk to do it!
Doug --
I tried to send you an e-mail, but I think I have an outdated address for you. It bounced back undeliverable.
I don't suppose you have those digital photos you took of me on the R-9 on Sunday? If so, would you mind sending me copies? There's a couple friends I'd like to send them to. Oh, and a copy of that "no foaming" graphic would be great, too.
Thanks in advance!
-- David
I've emailed you Doug's email address.
Dave/Lou, I got the message...my email account grew too fat yesterday to be usable. I've cleared that up.
Yes, my digi pics will be coming to all interested parties later today. All guilty parties are represented in my collection...;)
Heh. I'm looking forward to it. So your "hotpail" got overloaded with all that fine potted meat in a can? :)
After I got off 8786 on the 5 last night, I transferred to the N or W to go to Queens. To my amazement, going towards Brooklyn, I saw 2880 on the W but with in a DIAMOND shape in the front, NOT the circle. Local Circle signs were everywhere else on the train. I never knew that there was a . Can anybody clarify this or what it's about?
#2880 ???!!! West End Express???!!!
Perhaps the diamond W would be used for a "W" running express on the West End Line from 36th St. to Stillwell Ave. in Brooklyn
#3 West End Jeff
I have seen the diamond W many times before on the front sign. I guess it's just a mistake.
R68 I think don't have a Circle W on the front, so they put whatever they have there.
Robert
That's an old sign that was never replaced. Old signs have the diamond only, while new signs have the circle only.
If you looked farther down, you may have seen R68 2882, with R68A windows!
One one occasion, I've actually seen a W train in revenue service using the diamond bullet instead of the circle one as the MTA advertises on the maps and service advisories.
After I got off 8786 on the 5 last night, I transferred to the N or W to go to Queens. To my amazement, going towards Brooklyn, I saw 2880 on the W but with in a DIAMOND shape in the front, NOT the circle. Local Circle signs were everywhere else on the train. I never knew that there was a W in a Diamond. Can anybody clarify this or what it's about?
#2880 W West End Express???!!!
well some trains have the diamond W. the 40 slants have it as well. hey its the t.a they are always prepared.
For those of you which hate Rider Diaries, now's the time to see it hit a new low. It seems that their little problem child "studentid44/ Lunanticjr" is back and getting the board into a frenzy. Apparently their mods are never around and now imflammitory messages are being posted, and " 6 Express" is on the verge of exploding, on the little ball of terror. Check it out at http://www.straphangers.org
(yawn) Better THERE than HERE. :)
>>> It seems that their little problem child "studentid44/ Lunanticjr" is back and getting the board into a frenzy <<<
Is trhis the Subtalk version of Soap Opera Digest? Who cares about a flame war on another board?
Tom
It's just that everyone here hates straphangers, and it would give them cheap thrills to see it gone.
No thrills to be had there ... we've all experienced what happens when "boat people" go seeking a life raft. :)
As long as the other place stays lit, so do WE.
Really, it's hard to believe since they have posts on giving away 'Free 5's', starting a softball team and this 'studentid44' thing.
Those people need to get out a little bit more. Just my 2 cents. Not any hostility from me though.
LMAO!! I'm surprised over there, they can't even handle that! And the people over there don't want a fare hike! ;-)
I have started posting some of my Fathers and my own Branford pictures at webshots. With all the talk of 1689 and 1227 I posted some shots of both in 1979. BMTFan, these are the shots of 1227 we spoke about at NY Days. There are more but I have to see if I have them or if Dad still does.
I will be posting more as time allows. I have no clue how to post a hyperlink so you'll have to cut and paste. Here is the link:
http://community.webshots.com/album/51927863xPPbto
Enjoy
Steve Loitsch
Earlier on tonight, while doing a little overtime on the R, I heard over the radio at around 10 (on my return trip....last trip...to 71st-Continental) that W service to Stillwell was suspended due to a police investigation at Stillwell, and warranted the turning of W service at Bay Parkway, selected trains turned at Bay 50th ("Mary" (M) layups were allowed thru to CIY), even some M's being rerouted to 95th Street-Bay Ridge (personally saw one pulling into 59th-4th Avenue southbound). Does anyone here know what went down at Stillwell? Was it yet another in the almost constant stream of "12-9"s lately? What's the word? I didn't hear the details on the radio, just the service advisories and changes. Anyone know??
It was a bomb scare that turned out to be a homeless person using cardboard grill in one of the abandoned rampways.
Man those homeless people REALLY need to try and get a life.We can't be dealing with these type of things the rest of our lives,that's for sure.Although it must've been great to see a few M's go to 95th st.
Now that's a dream come true.I really DO hope in 2004 the M goes to 95th at least during the rush hours.
I did a trip while working the M to 95th Street. It isn't much really. We ended up going there one evening because they had a sick customer at I believe that night it was Canal Street, on top of that a B.I.E. on an R train somewhere in Brooklyn, which caused delays in N, W, and R service, which ripple-effected M service. Murphy Tower came on the radio imforming me and my partner that we were going all stops from 36th Street to Bay Ridge - 95th due to a gap in R service. When we got to 95th, we went out of service, ran light to Essex Street, where Essex Tower decided to put us in service there and run to Met as an extra interval out of Essex. Things like this are why I love what I do so much. You never know where you might end up!!!! :-)
When I drove the R-9 this weekend I realized that the few(!) times I pushed the brake into emergency, I was pretty much putting all the standing passengers on the floor. Has anyone ever experienced this on a train at full speed? On my MTN train this morning I noticed that the passengers can see full instructions how to pull the brake, with a wimpy little, "Don't do this unless you have to."
When I was a kid riding on the E or F line to Jamaica, I used to see the emergency brake by the front storm door. A few times I'd pump it wondering what it does. Fortunately I never tripped the train. But I do remember that iron dust smell.
That was not the emergency brake you were pumping. That is the hand/parking brake. It manually brings the brake pads against the wheels. It is usually used in the train yards. Occasionally it would be used on the road in the event of a power loss to prevent the train from rolling if the air brakes lose pressure.
The dust you smelled was the brake rubbing agianst the wheel. It took a lot of pumping to get the wheels to lock. If you have succeded you would not have put the train in emergency - you would have most likely caused a derailment. That has happened a number of times in the past on a couple of the Redbirds (before they were called that) because the hand brakes are accesible to everyone (between the cars). It was one of the things that prompted the moving of that item to inside the cab starting with the R-40s.
A major accident occurred on a downtown R-10 CC train leaving Columbus Circle in the late 70s. The train derailed just south of the station, and one car (3333) was nearly sheared in half hitting a concrete / steel support beam. The cause of the accident was vandalism - someone applied the handbrake a number of stops prior and the friction of the locked wheel against the track finally caused the wheel to overheat and derail. There was a similar incident on the Flats in Rockaway 7 weeks before that, also on a train of R-10s.
(I just read the original articles in the Daily News & New York Times on this accident, in prep for another of my historical articles for this site that I am working on, tentatively called "NYC Transit in the last 30 Years". I hope to have it done by the end of the year.)
--Mark
Are the handbrakes still there on the redbirds and R32s and R38s?
:-) Andrew
Yes.
So...where exactly are they? What do they look like?
Just railfan curiosity.
:-) Andrew
On the Redbirds, they are between cars. Others have them in the cab.
I recall the cast iron brake shoes and their awesome stopping ability on older NYCT cars. I had a pre GOH 32 car on a S/B GG in the late '80s I had to throw into emergency because of Signal Maintainer running without flagging into the 63rd Drive station.40MPH to Zero in about 300 feet, 2 track fires, big cloud of steel dust floating into my headlights and flats that made an R10 bearable. Those were the days.
REAL SHOOZ ... alive and well at Branford! Ahhhhh. BUMP! :)
I have experienced it a couple of times. First time was on the A in Rockaway in January 75 on an R-10. Other time was August 1980 on the D (I forget the equipment being used).
Twice. Both in the 80's. Once between Fresh Pond and Forest Ave on the M, some idiot kid pulled the break, and the train screeched to a halt, knocking everyone down, and sliding the others across the seats. I was in the car where the kid pulled the cord. You can imagine how that kid was treated by the passengers both right after and while we waited there 30+ minutes for the train to start again. I am sure that kid NEVER did that again.
The other time was in the 14th street tunnel on the L. I don't know who or why the cord was pulled, but that train stopped fast, especially with the speed of the train between Bedford and 1st. People went flying. We didn't wait too long though - maybe 10-15 minutes to get the train moving again.
Now a day when the cord is pull the train slow down much slower than back then. This was done to keep people from being thoung all over the place. It also has to do with the brake pad they use know. The older ones were made of Apesct(Sorry I hope you what a tring to say) vs. the compsit pad now.
Robert
You'll be pleased to hear that 1689 still has some balls. :)
We were getting some of our geese to kiss the bulkhead here and there even WITHOUT dumping the train. Ah, how I miss cast iron shoes. Heh.
" We were getting some of our geese to kiss the bulkhead here and there even WITHOUT dumping the train. "
I drove that car with no difficulty at all. Nobody went flying.
(Good Instructor... That's what!)
I knew that the brakes were different, and more difficult to operate, but I did not apply too much, nor go BIE.
Elias
Yeah, based on what *I* had expected having worked other Arnines for a while, 1689 isn't quite as calibrated as I had expected, so that threw me a bit and let's face it - it's a LOT easier to operate when you can close the cab door and just focus on what you're doing without a peanut gallery. I didn't do poorly mind ya, but I didn't do anywhere as well as I remember doing 30 years ago. I'm a fussy cuss, and demand that at least I do things properly at all times. On the "real" railroad, many lives DEPEND on that. I slipped a few times. :(
Okay, that's it. Next time, we ARE installing a third handle in the cab, and it WILL be to the keg, and you WILL be the one operating it. And if we AREN'T standing up the WHOLE WAY, in a NOISY little knot of geese STUCK to door of the cab, GUESS who we're gonna come to FIRST?????
P.S. We all slipped on that brake. It's an art.
Works for me. Heh. Yeah, to those of us who know Arnines, normally the electric brake assist kicks in at about 8:30 o'clock on the dial, lapping is around 8 o'clock and your first puff of air gets grabbed around 7 on the dial, each with a feelable "detent" ... getting first puff of air at 6 o'clock on the dial just didn't come up right. On both of my trips, I was on the "westbound" end of the car and didn't do it going "east" so I dunno if the other end was the same way, but the application not being where I expected it was a bit disconcerting.
I'm still not sure if it was my memory of where things were (also did some R32 duty, but didn't like those, TOO much like a redbird) that was off or the brakestand. But I definitely had some problems getting used to where things braked on 1689. The GOOD news is I've never had an Arnine with propulsion as TIGHT and as GOOD as 1689. That car could WAIL if you had the stones to pull it down. I went for it, and enjoyed every moment. Fortunately for all on board, I got the speed back down just in time.
Definitely need more time with her and I'm going to make it a point to EARN that time again. My sweetie and I need to have some time together alone. Heh.
I think Lou had stepped two or three people through before me on the R-9 (including your other sweetie, Selkirk?) and I got the impression the brake caught somewhere before six o'clock on them? Correct me, Lou? Because he seemed a bit surprised when I had to get all the way down to six o'clock to get braking, and then, of course, I was into emergency and not getting the hang of lapping back into eight o'clock until my later runs. It seemed to do the same thing both ends of the car, but that might have been progressive as the day went on.
Can a car full of foamers wear out an L-9? Please, God, say it isn't so.
Heh. Well, I woke her up in the morning and ran her before the other folks and that handle needed to go to 6 o'clock from the git-go to get that puff of air. So nope, you weren't halluckinating there. Big question for YOUR ride ... was the butt-plug in the round hole on the controller side when you operated or was it dangling loose from the reverser key? Shouldn't have made much difference either way for a single car, but I'm curious. And yeah, that was my OTHER hunny, bingbong that carted off a load of geese with Harry Beck's face in the foamer glass in Notch-it's #550 picture. :)
But yeah, where you pulled was where I pulled early in the morning when we brought her out and I said to myself, "waht de fook?" too.
I had a live RAILROAD TRACK staring me in the puss for the first time in my life when I grabbed that handle. I wouldn't have known the butt-plug if it was in my ... excuse me, I think my posts go through the head office in Madison. My guess is it was just where it was when bingbong ran it; check with her; and, of course, the final round in Braking for Dollars will be decided by our celebrity judge, Lou from Brooklyn.
Heh. Sorry about that. Yeah, the rails are something you look DOWN while you're doing other things, much like driving a car, the further DOWN you look (to read the iron and have enough time to stop a ten car train before you hit a switch or a signal) the more precious seconds you have to look around the cab, put out your cigarette (practice abandoned somewhere in the 70's) and other distractions ... I found myself paying more attention to the rail than I did when I was doing it every day too.
She says it was 6 o'clock for her too ... ya see, on most trains when you're in 6:00 territory, you're in BIE country which was what had me wondering about the car. Now MIND YA, my memory of where it should have been COULD be wrong, but I doubt it. I don't remember EVER having to go that far unless someone leaped. Whoops. That brings us back around the loop of this convo. Anyhoo, figured I'd ask if you happened to notice. I *did* notice though that 1689 braked a LOT better with the buttplug OUT and in reality, I was taught that when you were moving a single car or a pair in the yards, life was happier if it WAS out. Ten cars though would have been SUICIDE.
The butt plug controls "electric assist" which basically is an electric circuit that applies air through a valve in each car simultaneously since there's a slight delay in air propagation through a full train. Without the electric assist, you'd have cars behind you not braking yet wanting to push YOU along the rails as each car begins to apply air. Doesn't matter for one or two cars like it does for 8 or 10. Just so you know why the little obsession about the raildildo there. :)
Hiya,
The buttplug was OUT when I made my run. I thought that was why the brake didn't function the way I had been told to expect. I just found where it lapped, ran it by ear, and it behaved just fine.
U guys wanna hear something funny? i been riding trains for 12 years, and have been a railfan since i was 8 and im gonna be 20 in December. i havent been on a train where the chord was pulled ever! amazing right!!!
>>> I didn't do anywhere as well as I remember doing 30 years ago <<<
Don't worry about it Kevin, we all have selective memory. For instance I can remember how all the girls threw themselves at me 30 years ago. :-)
Tom
Heh. Well, for the benefit of my OWN personal redemption, just heard back from one of the folks at the museum who told me that the brakes on 1689 *are* bad order and that my memory of detents and handle positions WAS correct. Still, she was terrific fun to operate but I should have called for an RCI, called command and demanded another train. Alas, no other trains in the yard and I didn't want to sit the board so I went anyway. *JUST* like the old days. :)
Yeah, those were the R30's. The people went flying when someone pulled the cord on the train. It reminds me of an episode of "I Love Lucy" where Lucy is on a Union Pacific train and keeps pulling the cord for various reasons. The result wasn't that exagerated. I remember people flying all over the place when that happened on the R30's, especially the time it happened in the 14th Street tunnel, when we were going fairly fast.
I don't get it. If people really go flying when the emergency brake is pulled, they say that in rain conditions the emergency brake took longer to stop than the service brake, then wouldn't service brake cause people to go flying too?
If it is really true that the emergency brake is much softer these days, then doesn't it decrease the motorman's ability to stop an accident?
AEM7
"If it is really true that the emergency brake is much softer these days, then doesn't it decrease the motorman's ability to stop an accident?"
That's what many posts have been saying - that all these NYCT timers and speed restrictions are due to the fact that trains take more distance to stop than they used to.
And BIE takes even LONGER to stop than a controlled full service.
i was on an R38 when it went BIE at 59th, and it stopped real fast. I would have slid from one end of the bench to the other, if the bench wasnt almost filled. Many people fell
I'm goning to treat my Geese just like that. If you block the doors, you'll end up on your ass.
this was entering the station... what I would do with door holders if i were running opto would be to not reopen, move 2 feet,then open the doors slightly, so they can get out
Now a day when the cord is pull the train slow down much slower than back then. This was done to keep people from being thoung all over the place. It also has to do with the brake pad they use know. The older ones were made of Apesct(Sorry I hope you get what I tring to say) vs. the compsit pad now.
Robert
Oh yes - many times. I've also been on trains that were tripped by the raised arm at a red signal. When the train was moving at speed... we heard the "chhhhooowww" and the train slowed, and just before it came to a complete stop - you had better be holding onto something.
Wayne
I have experienced emergency brake on the LIRR twice and once on the subway.
On the LIRR we were going at rather slow speed, and I was sitting down. But I was in the front car and overheard that ASC kept "dropping the ball" putting the train into emergency. It happened again and they had to cut out the ASC.
On my other experience we were on an R40 on the Q line, just south of 34th street. We were also going slow, but the brake really startled the hell out of me as I was closing my eyes. I was also in the front car (sitting down) and overheard the t/o on the radio saying the signal was green and turned red right before he hit it. The t/o had to go outside the train, inspect the signal and put the trip arm down.
No one went flying on either occasion, but the NYC subway emergency brakes stop pretty quickly. On the LIRR, it's hard to tell it is the EMG brake until just before the train stops.
I experienced the cord being pulled once. A couple of years ago I was on the N with my dad, and we were on our way home to 8th ave. We had barely came out of the tunnel, when the train went into emergency and we had stopped (the C/R announced that the cord was pulled). I was like, "couldn't they have waited one more stop!" We didn't wait too long, maybe 5 to 10 minutes. I have also been on the train twice when it was tripped, most recently when a TSS was operating the train and talking with the T/O, when she got tripped right outside 36th street. We were only there a few minutes.
B63Mike
I had an "almost" experience while railfanning on an N train a few years back. A man in his 20's got a very strange look on his face and fell to the floor, as the train was heading Manhattan-bound through the 60th Street tunnel. A woman sitting nearby, about in the middle of the car, yelled "Pull the emergency cord!" I was one of at least ten people who shouted not to do that. What a ditz that woman must have been ...
Fortunately, none of the people near either end of the moderately crowded car pulled the cord. The stricken man seemed to recover pretty quickly, and a couple of other people helped him off the train when we got to Lexington Avenue.
I don't understand how people just think instantly, "PULL THE CORD!", especially when in a tunnel! Yes it says, "Pull cord in an emergency." But common sense should say that it will be harder and take longer to reach a sick passenger in the middle of a tunnel, than to wait till you get to a station ---especially in the middle of an East River Crossing tunnel!
Must be all those "air miles" that encourages people to pull the cord. Heaven help them though if they pack their own 'chute. :)
I never understood why so many people were quick to pull the emergency brake when something happens on a train. Of course the train only gets delayed at the point it stopped. Maybe they think the emergency brake calls for help.
But these are some of the same people that litter and then complain about the system being dirty. Go figure
Wayne
I remember a few times when it happened on the train I rode in with my mom when i was younger.Although the only one that really comes to me better was on the 7 train toward Times Sq. during the night.
Someone pulled the emergency cord just as the train was leaving the station.I think it was some stupid,smartass school punk who did it.I dunno what happened to him.Though I really don't care.He paid the price for doing that I'm sure.
Oh yes forgot to mention that it happened at Grand Central.
I've been on a pulled train once, and a tripped train another. The pulled train was on my way to Astoria with a friend of mine...some dumb kid was dared to ride on the outside of the car in the doorway and hopped on somewhere along the El in Queens. It was a 68a and I heard the chow...felt like full service. Kid jumped off and ran outside and down to the street. At astoria blvd a undercover cop was actually in the car that the kid was dared in and took the 12 year old "leader" into custody. The tripped train was actually on the MOD redbird trip when we went through Westchester Yard, Concourse, and 207. We were going through the Westchester Yard car wash at like 2 or 3 mph and all the sudden CHOW and it comes to a HALT. I almost fell over even with that! Redbirds don't joke with brakes, turns out that the BMT/IND tripper was activated or something like that and it was tripped.
I experienced it 2 weeks ago on the C Line between Liberty Ave. & Bway ENY, the kids at my school pulled the Emergency Brake, It was R32 & R38 MUed together.
-AcelaExpress2005
Ever seen a Acela in BIE? At 150MPH is there only air? Or air and dynamic together?
Once on a cross country trainride there was a Cuban bandleader that was running after the rear of a train he just missed. His wife, a crazy redhead pulled the cord and the train stopped short. Their landlord and his wife who were also on the train ended up with food all over his face.
Yeah, but she got worse than roughed up by a transit cop. She divorced the Cuban and tried to make it on her own, and she bombed in three seasons.
Today, these STUPID KIDS which got on at KIngsbridge on the #4 came into my car and strated getting really rowdy. As such, I moved into the next car. I swear, no less than 30 seconds after I sat down in the next car, WHOOSH is what I hear, and I look through the storm door glass only to see them pull the cord several more times before I see them close the box containing the cord. Ironically enough, they were in the conductor's car, and she came out and screamed her head off at them ( I could hear her). She threw them off the train after they pleaded with her hot to get the cops involved, as she threatened to do. The train was just beginning to leave the station when these fuchheads did this. I was so unbeliaviably pissed that anyone could be this STUPID!!
Regularly when I used to ride the Montreal Metro. Stupid idiot kids would pry the doors open causing the train to stop hard and send everybody flying. And you could tell it happens regularly by the operator's calm tone on the PA saying "S'il vous plait ne jouez pas avec les portes" ("Please do not play with the doors") and then the train would start right up again.
I haven't had the experience of having a passenger pull the emergency brake yet so far.
#3 West End Jeff
On the DC MetroRail on Columbus Day 2001, I was on a Shady Grove bound train about to arrive at Medical Center. As we approached the crossover south of the station, the signal at the crossover was white (equivelent of a green elsewhere) and the cab signal was for about 50 MPH, the regular speed for that stretch of track. As we neared the crossover, the signal changed to red over red (equivelent of red over red elsewhere) and the cab signal became zero. The train was in automatic at the time and began to brake rapidly although we were very close to the signal so we passed it at about 30 MPH and continued to slow down at the same rate. We must have been about 100 feet past the signal when the cab signal went back up to its normal speed and the train accelerated (despite the fact we were about to stop, the ATO goes back to the highest speed possible considering our distance to the stop marker) and then continued to stop normally at Medical Center. When I got off, I asked the operator what had happened and he had said he had no idea and had never seen such a thing before. I had seen the cab signal go to 0 for about a second and then go back to the normal speed but I had never seen it go to 0 and have a signal (which actually only reminds the operator to look at his console) go red. Luckily, it was Columbus Day, so the train in front of us was about 8 minutes ahead and should have been around Twinbrook (3 stations north) at the time.
There's a very well-done opinion piece in today's New York Post criticizing the grandiose plans for Lower Manhattan transit development. In particular, the item lays out a strong case against the exhorbitantly expensive ideas to bring LIRR or Metro North trains directly to Downtown, citing MTA figures which show only a very low percentage of people working in the area actually ride either line. It also points out that many Midtown commuters have to take subways or buses once they arrive at Grand Central or Penn Station. In other words, the much-balyhooed "one seat ride" isn't so vital after all. While I'm not going to swear by the accuracy of all the figures and conjectures, the item makes a very good case against the commuter-rail extensions.
Not all of the print version item is provided online. The omitted parts criticize the plans for rebuilding the Broadway-Nassau-Fulton station complex, citing the endless disruption it would cause and of course the cost. It claims that the existing complex is quite easy to navigate, and really just needs a good cleaning and better signage. Finally, the piece raises a very interesting point as to why some Downtown boosters are so eager for huge transit improvements. Major transit work, it is claimed, will delay the reconstruction of the WTC site itself, which will enhance the value of existing office space by keeping the supply down.
It's an interesting perspective.
Still, some transit improvements are important for downtown, and a lot easier to do when new buildings haven't been erected yet. At a minimum, I'd like to see PATH's WTC line extended (one stop at WTC, then continuing east or east and south to a new terminal in the financial district. I do not believe anyone important in NY has advocated for this, however.
We'llsee what happens.
I agree with your comments 100%, although a new tunnel for the LIRR from Brooklyn should take a lot of pressure off the Penn Station route. It might get everybody saying, again "dam the LIRR, I have to change in Jamaica every day".
Since the MTA is one big happy family, which makes more since:
dumping LI folks at Penn Station & letting them load up the downtown 7th & 8th Ave lines OR doing it in lower Manhattan ? I say the 7th & 8th trains are already full when they get to Penn Station. Why not give those folks a break while you are adding service via a new tunnel ?
One big happy family? You been sneaking some hooch on that bus? :)
Hay, that's the party line, but then I should have added NOT.
I say build the LONG OVERDUE 2 Av subway b/c the Lex line looks is already more bloated than a blimp. Creating the LIRR connection is not that important right now plus it will only benefit 20,000 or so so that's a waste. Maintaining the current system comes first. Resore long lost express services (like the Culver express), rehab current stations in disrepair. Yes we need expansion but for the NYC subway system right now. Agree/disagree.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
The Second ave subway IS NEEDED,for sure,but to me [personal point of view]it doesnt do enough,and doesn't reach enough riders or potential riders.In lower Manhattan,there should be TWO branches.One from the Houston st line[F train from Delancey st going north under Essex st] to tap the East village/Alphabet City area,and one downtown to tap the Broadway subway at Whitehall st.A new tunnel to Bklyn ,connections to the Dekalb ave complex and through routing to Queens via the LIRR Atlantic line would work even better,as the potential for ridership growth in Queens has never been better. The possiblities are endless now.SOMEONE needs to see this,and act upon it.Manhattan should not reap the benifits of new subways alone.this should be all means be a first step in a major subway expantion program for THE WHOLE CITY!
"citing MTA figures which show only a very low percentage of people working in the area actually ride either line"
Whoever wrote their editorial must have flunked math.
18,700 out of 350,000 isn't half a percent, it's 5%.
On the other hand, even 5% is not a very big number. It is hard to justify $10 billion to make the lives of 19,000 people easier.
Their arguments against the passageway from the WFC to Nassau St are weaker, though. The numbers of people who benefit are much larger and the costs are way lower. Getting from the A train to the WFC, or from the PATH or 1/9 to Water St. before 9/11 was a much lengthier task than it should have been for the distances involved.
At $10B that works out to $534,759.36 per commuter, at a mere $5b it works out to $267,379.68 per commuter. Makes no sense to me. But what do the downtown redevelopment people really want?? They have to know they are never going to get the Cranberry connection or a brand-new LIRR tunnel from Brooklyn. So what's really going on here??.......
At $10B that works out to $534,759.36 per commuter, at a mere $5b it works out to $267,379.68 per commuter. Makes no sense to me. But what do the downtown redevelopment people really want?? They have to know they are never going to get the Cranberry connection or a brand-new LIRR tunnel from Brooklyn. So what's really going on here??.......
You can't really tell from the online version as not all of the column is reproduced. In the dead-tree version, however, the column suggests that Downtown real estate owners are pushing these grandiose transit plans not because they really care about transit per se, but because they figure that in doing so they're delaying the reconstruction of the WTC itself. A rebuilt WTC is not in their interests as it'll substantially increase the inventory of Downtown office space and therefore lower the rents they can charge.
Not surprisingly, the Post noted that Mort Zuckerman, owner of the Daily News and a big Downtown landlord, is a major advocate of the transit plans. Although not named in the column, it's also worth noting that Brookfield Properties, probably the biggest landlord in the area, is also pushing hard for commuter rail access to Downtown. Whether the motives of the transit proponents are really this cynical is hard to gauge. I mean, the Post is hardly noted for its objectivity. Yet there's the fact that MTA statistics - I'm taking the column at its word as far as these are concerned - indeed show that few Downtown workers use commuter rail, which when coupled with the busines moguls' strident advocacy of MNRR/LIRR access does give rise to some questions.
"Yet there's the fact that MTA statistics - I'm taking the column at its word as far as these are concerned"
The statistics are plausible (i.e., 5%, not 0.5%). MNRR and LIRR aren't a very large precentage of the commuter base for Manhattan as a whole. And NJ is probably more heavily represented downtown among the higher income tpyes, since if you can live where you want, and want to live in the suburbs, you'd be more likely to choose NJ if you work downtown.
There's something weird about these numbers. He says 52% of the 89,700 LIRR riders who arrive at Penn Station each day work in midtown. But only 7,700 LIRR riders (including both Penn and Flatbush commuters) work downtown?
Where do the other 30,000 (plus however many people travel to Flatbush Ave each day) go?
Something doesn't add up.
At the same time, even if the numbers were right, it wouldn't necessarily support the point that the project would only benefit those 7,700. The point of a transit improvement is to induce traffic where none existed before. When the IRT was built to 137th Street, there were VERY few commuters from there to midtown. That changed quickly -- and that's the kind of change in behavior and patterns we should be trying to induce in rebuilding downtown.
Cuozzo states that downtown did all right without these links for the last 100 years, but the truth is that before the WTC was built, downtown was in a serious decline, and now, with that draw gone, and new reasons (led by fear) for companies to avoid it, downtown might be on the slide again. It's not enough to rebuild transportation links the way they were -- you have to make it BETTER and EASIER to get firms to move downtown again.
At the same time, even if the numbers were right, it wouldn't necessarily support the point that the project would only benefit those 7,700. The point of a transit improvement is to induce traffic where none existed before. When the IRT was built to 137th Street, there were VERY few commuters from there to midtown. That changed quickly -- and that's the kind of change in behavior and patterns we should be trying to induce in rebuilding downtown.
Bingo.
Look at the broader picture. What sort of behavior do we want to encourage? Let's look at the major transportation improvements that have been seriously proposed lately. On the subway front, we have the 2nd Avenue subway (which will, if finally built after 75+ years of waiting, hopefully allow IRT passengers to breathe again), the 7 extension to Javits, and a smattering of lower Manhattan station rehabs and reconfigurations, most notably an extension (and rebuild?) of the existing Fulton Street transfer hub, which will also tie into PATH. On the commuter rail front, we have East Side Access, Brookfield's proposal (which would hurt the subway) and similar proposals to bring the LIRR and MNR to lower Manhattan, Farley-Penn (not directly a commuter rail issue, but it would theoretically decongest the NJT and LIRR concourses at Penn), and a new lower Manhattan PATH station. The subway improvements seem no more likely to be built than the commuter rail improvements.
Combine that with the more highly subsidized fares on the commuter rail system and a very clear message is being sent: Move to the suburbs!
Is that the message we want to send? That's the message Robert Moses sent when he was in power, and those of us who have seen NYC in the 70's and early 80's have seen the result. I can only speak for myself, but I have no interest in seeing a return to the 70's.
Lower Manhattan (along with downtown Brooklyn) has the best transportation in the entire city: just look at all the subway lines that converge there. So suburbanites have to transfer to get there? I'm afraid transfers are a part of life. If that's too tough for them, maybe they'll move to the city themselves in search of the direct ride. Let's use our money primarily where it can make the most substantial improvements for the greatest number of people: on the subway.
(The subway improvements seem no more likely to be built than the commuter rail improvements. Combine that with the more highly subsidized fares on the commuter rail system and a very clear message is being sent: Move to the suburbs! )
This is what happens when the suburbs get interested in transit -- the city ends up with less of it. On the other hand, it would help city residents move to places with good schools. If they can sell their homes.
Were it not for the grab for Brooklyn's subway capacity, however, I'd say direct commuter rail connections Downtown aren't such a bad idea. You'll end up with more work options for people, and more people taking transit. They say 30,000 people take the LIRR through Atlantic now. Build the connector and maybe you get 50,000, or 60,000. If nothing else, you wouldn't have people going Downtown via Penn.
I like a combination of the RPA's proposals -- a super connector from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, up Second Avenue as an express level of the SAS, over to Grand Central, then out to Secaucus Transfer in NJ. With one easy connection, NJT riders get to Grand Central and MetroNorth and LIRR riders get Downtown.
There is a lower (capital though higher operating) cost alternative. Extend the LIRR to the Brooklyn waterfront, there to meet an LIRR ferry. It would be a short hop, and unlike the subway ferries and trains could be held to ensure connections. Run MetroNorth to Penn, and install a MetroNorth stop right along the Hudson for its ferry connection Downtown. Or put it at Yankee Stadium. It's a short walk to most of Downtown from the water.
BTW, I believe most passengers at Grand Central walk.
I have no explicit objection to your proposals, but whenever someone suggests a commuter rail capital improvement, my response (which I usually keep to myself) is to ask whether that same money wouldn't benefit even more people if it were spent instead on some sort of subway improvement (capital or operating). Each time we spend the money on commuter rail anyway, we're effectively asking city residents to leave and telling nonresidents to stay where they are. In terms of transportation if nothing else, it's cheaper to accomodate NYC residents than suburbanites. So shouldn't we be encouraging people to move to the city, by spending a lot on city transportation needs?
(So shouldn't we be encouraging people to move to the city, by spending a lot on city transportation needs?)
On the margin, I agree. But you'd need to do one heck of a lot of upzoning to encourage more people to move to the city, and you'd encounter opposition from the occupants of existing less dense buildings which would be replaced. Essentially, we are investing to improve the quality of life, employment options within a reasonable commute, of the region as it now exists.
Not necessarily.
There are neighborhoods (like mine) that are very dense already and have little objection to becoming even denser. The biggest problem is that our subway lines are already the most crowded in the system -- but building a new subway line is cheaper than building a new commuter rail line.
And then there are "neighborhoods" that are sitting basically unused. Apartment buildings are going up in some of them -- good! Keep up the trend. Again, in many cases, transportation is perhaps the biggest problem.
(There are neighborhoods (like mine) that are very dense already and have little objection to becoming even denser. The biggest problem is that our subway lines are already the most crowded in the system -- but building a new subway line is cheaper than building a new commuter rail line. And then there are "neighborhoods" that are sitting basically unused. Apartment buildings are going up in some of them -- good! Keep up the trend. Again, in many cases, transportation is perhaps the biggest problem. )
Clearly you have never had the experience of defending an increase in density before "the community" as they are referred to or, as I put it, the nasty A-holes who show up at such things. There are plenty of people who want to live in the city but want the city to be Darien.
Meanwhile, the region's housing problems would be solved in a second if the suburbs simply allowed two-family homes. All those empty nesters could add apartments for the young, the old, and the working people who no one wants to allow to live there. (They do so now illegally -- among my in-law there were grandparents and young adults forced to slink into the basements of Nassau County to avoid detection).
On the other hand, it would help city residents move to places with good schools. If they can sell their homes.
Schools are only as good as the students that attend them.
If you let the stupid parents move out to the good school district, you just funk up the good school.
Schools are only as good as the students that attend them.
How do you think that 'good students' are developed?
Certainly not by their schools
Last fall, the New York State Education Department released the results of a fourth-grade math test and eighth-grade math and language tests. It will come as no surprise to hear that the numbers for students in New York City were dreadful. About two-thirds of city eighth graders failed the English language arts test, and about three-quarters failed in math; half the fourth graders failed the math test. The results provided fuel for those who felt that New York City schools are underfinanced, that the city uses too many uncertified teachers, that academic standards are low, that junior high schools are neglected and that the tests themselves are unfair. There's some merit in all these notions. What was not said, however, was the obvious: that the city districts that performed poorly, like those that performed well, scored almost exactly as the socioeconomic status of the children in them would have predicted. You could have predicted the fourth-grade test scores of all but one of the city's 32 districts merely by knowing the percentage of students in a given district who qualified for a free lunch. Only a few dozen of the city's 675 elementary schools scored well despite high poverty rates. In other words, good schools aren't doing that much good, and bad schools aren't doing that much harm.
This is the case in virtually every big city in the country. Though over the past 35 years we have poured billions of dollars into inner-city schools, and though we have fiddled with practically everything you could think to fiddle with, we have done almost nothing to raise the trajectory of ghetto children.1
1 James Traub, "What No School Can Do," The New York Times Magazine 16 Jan. 2000: 52.
"If you let the stupid parents move out to the good school district, you just funk up the good school."
Is that what your parents taught you?
I find it perfectly reasonable to have a transfer from Commuter rail to subway. I live off the NE corridor and would take PATH from Newark to WTC, then the N/R to Brooklyn where I worked. Since 9/11, that has become more problematical, because a fair proportion of the passenger load of PATH commuters now forced into Penn Station. The opening of the NJT concourse has helped, but the choke point is the Hudson tunnel.
I would like to see:
East Side Access both as a second set of tunnels into NY Penn, to relieve the congestion, plus connection to GCT, so that East Side commuters have an easier time.
This will require the 2nd Ave Subway, with lower Manhattan connections/provisions for future Brooklyn trains (I don’t know enough about ridership patterns to speculate here).
John
(I find it perfectly reasonable to have a transfer from Commuter rail to subway. I live off the NE corridor and would take PATH from Newark to WTC, then the N/R to Brooklyn where I worked.)
I agree that a two seat ride to a bunch of locations is better than once an hour service for a one seat ride. Note, however, that at Newark the transfer to the PATH is relatively easy, and the trains come in empty.
At Atlantic Avenue and Grand Central, the trains are packed when they arrive and the transfer is difficult and time consuming (except city-bound at AA which is a quick entrance to the 2/3). Hence the appeal of the super subway that orignates at Jamaica with a cross-platform transfer, and a Grand Central with a placement designed to easy transfers from MetroNorth. I can see it. Just don't take my subway capacity.
One option is to use the Montigue Tunnel, but severe the connection to the Nassau Loop and use that turn off to go up Water Street as the express tracks on Second Avenue, which would then turn west to Grand Central and perhaps Secaucus Transfer. The junction would be down deep, west of Court Street.
Again, the Rutgers-DeKalb connection would be built to compensate Brooklyn for loss of the Manhattan Bridge alternate. Twelve R locals could use the Montigue, along with 18 plus Snobway trains -- other DeKalb trains would use the Manhattan Bridge or, if that is partially blocked, the Rutgers-DeKalb connection to the 6th Avenue local.
One option is to use the Montigue Tunnel, but severe the connection to the Nassau Loop and use that turn off to go up Water Street as the express tracks on Second Avenue, which would then turn west to Grand Central and perhaps Secaucus Transfer. The junction would be down deep, west of Court Street.
Does second avenue have plans for express tracks? I didn't think that the present plan did (which is really a shame. NYers looove their expresses, and I think that Queens Blvd. is the key example. They take crowding over a seat. How do you expect to lure people off of Lex if you have only a two track subway?). I think that not only should there be a four track plan (with one set to Nassau St and south Bklyn and the other set in a new East river tunnel to Court St and the Fulton av subway), but that there should be connections to both brooklyn and the bronx. The plan right now is just for a line that runs up and down manhattan with no links to either the bronx or brooklyn. The 4/5/6 will still be packed coming into midtown.
East Side Access is not merely a proposal. Unlike the others, this one is actually underway.
The only question about it is if any kind of further extension will occur from GCT to Penn.
It's less underway than the 2nd Avenue subway was in the early 70's.
In any case, you're supporting my point. How much is ESA costing us? How many people will it help? How many people would it help if that same money were spent on the subway?
I'm with you on East Side Access, though -- there's plenty of access to midtown already. That's more money that should be diverted to the crisis point downtown.
"That's more money that should be diverted to the crisis point downtown."
At this point that would be foolish - both fiscally and politically. And unnecessary.
There's more than enough money to take care of downtown. What's needed is enough political support for a cohesive plan, and then execution.
"How much is ESA costing us?" -- Define "us".
ESA will have positive impacts on E train commuters. Stand on the uptown E platform at Penn Station any weekday morning -- subtract half of those people and the E will run much smoother.
CG
It sure will. Now pick the direct subway improvements of your choice that cost about the same as ESA. How many people will benefit from them?
ESA will have a positive impact on the subways, but its positive impact is indirect and limited.
Don't forget that ESA will also have a negative impact on some other subway lines, most notably the 4/5/6, which already are worse off than the E.
"Don't forget that ESA will also have a negative impact on some other subway lines, most notably the 4/5/6, which already are worse off than the E."
People keep saying this, and I see no evidence for it whatsoever.
- The 6 has spare capacity south from GCT. In morning rush hour, considerably more people get off the southbound 6 at 51st and GCT than get on at GCT. The 6 south of GCT is comfortably full but nowhere near overcrowded. I have often managed to get a seat, in fact.
- ESA people are not going to take the 4/5, which are very full south of GCT. To get to 14th, the 6 is just as fast as the 4/5. To BB, you're better off taking the LIRR to Flatbush.
- Many of the ESA people who will take the 6 are probably aready taking the 7 from Hunterspoint and switching to the 6. Note that the 7 will see a dramatic reduction in crowding from ESA.
"It's less underway than the 2nd Avenue subway was in the early 70's. "
Since you know that's not true (but you post it anyway), what's the point of responding to your other question, since it also isn't serious?
Construction on the 2nd Avenue subway began in the 70's.
AFAIK, construction on ESA hasn't begun yet. Am I wrong? (Serious question. I don't know everything. It's quite possible I missed the announcement.) Existing pieces of infrastructure built as parts of other projects don't count.
My question is dead serious.
AFAIK, construction on ESA hasn't begun yet. Am I wrong? (Serious question. I don't know everything. It's quite possible I missed the announcement.) Existing pieces of infrastructure built as parts of other projects don't count.
I do not believe there has been any actual, physical, shovels in the dirt construction on the ESA project.
"I do not believe there has been any actual, physical, shovels in the dirt construction on the ESA project."
You can't tell from looking at a box store in your neighborhood, Peter. It's in "the city," remember? That place you never go to but talk about all the time?
:0)
I do not believe there has been any actual, physical, shovels in the dirt construction on the ESA project.
ou can't tell from looking at a box store in your neighborhood, Peter. It's in "the city," remember? That place you never go to but talk about all the time?
What in the world are you talking about? There hasn't been any construction as of yet on the ESA project. How does that relate to box stores in the suburbs?
By the way, I work in Manhattan.
"By the way, I work in Manhattan."
Do you have a paycheck stub handy to prove it?
:0)
"AFAIK, construction on ESA hasn't begun yet. Am I wrong? (Serious question. I don't know everything. It's quite possible I missed the announcement.) Existing pieces of infrastructure built as parts of other projects don't count. "
Yes, they do. However, to humor you, let's only consider what has been done on ESA very recently: First, the 63rd Street tunnel was extended to Sunnyside Yard between 1995 and 2001. Second, building demolition and site preparation were completed in Sunnyside Yard this summer. Third, contracts were let this summer(approved by FTA and fully funded at $150 million) to dig connecting tunnels in Sunnyside Yard and assemble the TBM and drill the rest of the tunnel in Manhattan down to GCT.
Now, these specific contracts (which were posted on MTA's procurement website) do not include tracks, signals or work on terminals. They do not include the extra train yard MTA needs. They do include surface level and open pit work in the Yard and the TBM in Manhattan.
The length of the contract is 37 months, meaning that the ESA's basic ROW will be complete in 2005, at the conclusion of the contracts. Presumably other work will be untertaken as well, but additional contracts have not been let yet.
"Third, contracts were let this summer(approved by FTA and fully funded at $150 million) to dig connecting tunnels in Sunnyside Yard and assemble the TBM and drill the rest of the tunnel in Manhattan down to GCT."
Can you explain what you mean by that sentence? As written, it says that for $150 million the MTA will get the LIRR tunnels bored from 63rd and 2nd across and down to GCT. I don't think that's what you meant to say, but what did you mean?
The contracts include digging tunnels. This should be taken to mean exactly that. Tunnels - no stations, terminals, tracks, signalling, third-rail, no ventilation shafts (yet), no emergency exits. Just digging, tunnel wall and roof securing, (temporary lighting of some type, I assume) and dirt removal.
In addition, a new ESA contract bid request is now on MTA's website. It has a cost estimate of $1 million to $5 million dollars, is funded (meaning the winning bidder will be signed and will work it). It is entitled "Environmental Remediation of Grand Central Terminal Yard East" and bid opening is scheduled for November 8, 2002.
Remarkable. I realize there's lots more to do, but I hadn't realized the actual tunnels were such a small portion of the total expense.
LIRR to GCT to East Side Access has been under construction for some time. There is a good reason for the construction -- when they built the 63rd Street connection, they dug out that portion of LIRR to GCT at the same time, so they would not have to do it twice.
The problem is I think subway riders are paying for this, since ESA hasn't had its own money. In addition, subway riders are paying to underpin the subways where the LIRR to GCT will go under. Remember the bonds are repaid, in part, from the farebox.
There are 1,000 ways NYC is being screwed at the federal and state level, most of which few people know about. Why? Because in exchange, NYC's health and social services industries get paid more than double the national average per Medicaid customer. The rest of the state and nation make us pay for that patronage machine with an big additional margin on top, through the 1,000 ripoffs in other categories. And the deal gets worse all the time.
"when they built the 63rd Street connection, they dug out that portion of LIRR to GCT at the same time"
Are you serious? There is an LIRR tunnel from 2nd Ave and 63rd to GCT? When the 63rd St tunnel was built, I believe the plan was to run the LIRR toa new terminal at 3rd Ave and 48th St.
("when they built the 63rd Street connection, they dug out that portion of LIRR to GCT at the same time" Are you serious? There is an LIRR tunnel from 2nd Ave and 63rd to GCT? When the 63rd St tunnel was built, I believe the plan was to run the LIRR toa new terminal at 3rd Ave and 48th St.)
The work that was done was done in Queens, not Manhattan. It is the section under the 63rd Street subway connection that was just built. They now have money to do the other side.
Maybe this "MTA Railroad" thing will put a stop to the insanely expensive plan to dig a 3rd level and Grand Central, rather than just hooking the LIRR into part of the existing trackage. Perhaps the savings could be used to build a more complete MetroNorth to Penn. At least the inter-organizational issues should be resolved, once there is one person in charge of both.
IN This, I must agree with you.The lower level should be good enough to support both services,or Metro north on the Upper,LIRR on the Lower level. Im sure it would cost less to change over the thrid rail than build a whole new level just to store trains.
The city should focus thier efforts on convincing the suburbintes to move back to the city.
This will both help raise tax revenue and improve the school tedt scores
Whoa.
Transit accessibility is relatively low on the list of factors people use to base their decisions on where to live. People really like to have backyards, and it is possible that no amount of money spent on transit services will overcome that draw.
Transit accessibility, on the other hand, is very high on the list of factors businesses use to base their decisions on where to locate.
Before we go for the hard stuff -- convincing suburbanites to move into the city -- let's go for the low-hanging fruit: Insuring we have a vibrant second business center within Manhattan -- by maximizing the commuting options to that site. We need that revenue -- and we need that second option.
Let's remember how many firms moved to midtown in the wake of 9/11. If NYC didn't have that secondary business center option, they would have moved outside its borders. And guess what, there's nothing inherently safer about midtown. The next attack could be there. Hell, given the location of the United Nations, it's MORE likely to be there than downtown.
David, your point about money spent on the second-avenue subway serving the greatest number of current riders is exactly what I'm against: There is very little new development to be gained by relieving congestion on the Lexington Avenue line. Second Avenue is not the "virgin," undeveloped territory that met the original IRT along Broadway.
But improvements to access downtown for the huge pools of workers in the suburbs (I'd prefer to see a through tunnel connecting the LIRR and NJT at Hoboken, which runs the risk of being totally marginalized by Midtown Direct) will help rebuild lower manhattan as a business center.
Don't look where the people are travelling today, look where they are today, and think about where they can travel tomorrow.
Ah, I see you've fallen for the propaganda.
If "people really like to have backyards," explain Park Avenue: some of the richest people in the world are voluntarily paying for some of the most expensive land in the world -- and they're not getting backyards.
No, some people really like to have backyards. Others place that somewhere lower down on their priority list. Some don't want the bother of a backyard at all. Manhattan has 1.5 million residents, and few of them have backyards.
The purpose of the Second Avenue subway is not to spur new development. It's to relieve the extreme overcrowding on the one existing subway line in the area. When Upper East Siders, packed into subway cars like sardines, notice that Long Islanders have a highly subsidized high-amenity ride in cushy seats to wherever they need to go -- subsidized in part by those very Upper East Siders! -- some of those Upper East Siders will decide that, while they like the Upper East Side, they're going to follow the subsidies out to the suburbs. The same will happen in every other neighborhood that has an inadequacy of any sort in its transit.
This isn't "the hard stuff." NYC has 8 million residents, and many of them are content if not thrilled to be in NYC itself. Let's spend our limited funds where it they bring the biggest bank for the buck -- in the city, for the most part -- so that those 8 million residents aren't forced to leave for the suburbs.
Because if they leave for the suburbs, who's going to pay for the next commuter rail project?
The Lexington Ave. line has been packed for what, five, six, ten decades now? Very few people seem to be leaving the Upper East Side. In fact, new buildings are going up, and more residents are coming (and trust me, it's not in anticipation of Second Avenue). The crowding on Lexington Avenue is not driving their decisions.
I know you'd like more breathing room on your ride, but cost of this project is WAY out of line compared with the benefits.
Have you ever ridden the Lex in rush hour?
You are championing the path of least resistance here. The Second Avenue subway is expensive, therefore we shouldn't build it. This, of course, leaves the remaining rapid transit system overcrowded and ineffective as a means of transportation. People are flocking to the Upper East Side in droves. At least they were when I moved away a few months ago. How are these people going to commute with the LEx already at crush loading?
Ah, move them to the suburbs! That's the easiest solution. And who doesn't like a two car garage and a back yard with a slip and slide! Unfortunately, the path of least resistance happens to be completely and wholly unsustainable.
The suburbs lack the existing infrastructure or population density to warrant public transportation. So all those displaced upper east siders get cars, which work to jam the suburban roads even more than they already are. The price of real estate goes up, and people are forced further and further out into the boondocks due to poor land planning.
An unfortunate side effect of World War II was the neo-conservative individualistic philosophy that spawned the likes of Robert Moses. We are not a collection of indivuduals, but a society. And part of being a society means having to eschew what we want in favor of what is best for all.
We should optimize existing infrastructure. As David said, downtown, midtown, and Brookly are all transit hubs. That shouldn't be left idle, but optimized.
Matt
I don't think this has ever happened before, but I agree fully with Matt. (Must be the Cornell connection.)
The Second Avenue subway won't affect my own ride much. My line is the 1/9, which (at least in 1996, the date of the only comprehensive statistics I've seen) is second only to the 6, at least in the A Division, with respect to crowding. The difference is that, with some creative use of alternate terminals, service on the 1/9 can be increased substantially, while service on the 6 is already close to capacity.
Yes, it's an expensive undertaking, but divide that price tag by the number of people who will benefit. Now take any of the proposed LIRR extensions and divide its price tag by the number who will benefit from it. Which is cheaper per person? (I could also point out that the commuter rail systems are already in debt to the subway, but I don't think that's necesary to make my point.)
Yeah, Second Avenue won't do much directly for you on your average commute.
However, with one transfer at Times Square, you will be able to loop around from your home stop across midtown and up Second Avenue, if you want to visit the upper East Side or eat on 125 Street (is Sylvia's somewhere on East 125 St?).
So it helps you if that is what you want to do and don't feel like waiting in the rain for a cross-town bus.
Sylvia's is closer to Broadway than to Second Avenue, so there's no point in going down to Times Square to visit it. I think it's on Lenox or maybe 7th. Either way, north of 125th. There is really nothing interesting on 125th Street east of 5th Avenue.
>>> Now take any of the proposed LIRR extensions and divide its price tag by the number who will benefit from it. <<<
Who will benefit is always hard to determine. If the SCAs (I think that is Peter Rosa's term) who are the decision makers in New York businesses decide the trip into the city is too difficult, it could add (along with high taxes, etc.) to a decision to move the business away from New York. The indirect benefits to the city could be far more than just the direct benefits to the LIRR riders.
Tom
(Yes, it's an expensive undertaking, but divide that price tag by the number of people who will benefit. Now take any of the proposed LIRR extensions and divide its price tag by the number who will benefit from it. Which is cheaper per person?)
Do people in the Bronx and Brooklyn who use transit (as opposed to the few who drive) count as people? Politically, the answer is no. Thank God the Second Avenue is seen as primarly a Manhattan benefit. Let's just ignore the indirect benefits for others.
Multiply the people times the amount of their wealth, income, and campaign contributions and see what the calculation is.
While not a big fan of the SAS I think it is funny that Some in the Bronx will sink it unless it goes up there.
The indirect benefit is highly underrated. Even a lowly 2 track line to 86 st that operates 5am-9pm only would help crowding tremendously and speed up the line.
The real difference is that the SAS can move people away from buses and cabs more than an improvement in the 1/9.
Now for the westside any thoughts about a TrumpWay from 66st and WEA to midtown and the new Penn Station?
Do people in the Bronx and Brooklyn who use transit (as opposed to the few who drive) count as people? Politically, the answer is no. Thank God the Second Avenue is seen as primarly a Manhattan benefit. Let's just ignore the indirect benefits for others.
Multiply the people times the amount of their wealth, income, and campaign contributions and see what the calculation is.
You also have to take into account the extent to which people are swing voters. Bronx and Brooklyn residents can be safely ignored not so much because they don't have much financial clout, but because they'll vote almost entirely Democratic no matter what. The Democrats take them for granted and the Republicans have long since written them off as a lost cause. The reverse situation applies in some suburbs. Part of the reason why Nassau County is such a financial disaster is because the Republicans have had a near monopoly for decades. They could nominate the most worthless candidates imaginable and be guaranteed election. My point is that an area which tends to go either way in elections is going to get plenty of attention from both parties regardless of its economic status.
It is not that they vote democratic it is that they don't vote.
In Rudy Vs. Dinkin part 2 a Staten Island voter was 4 times more likely to show up than a Brownville voter (OK there was an other ballot issue in SI) but a Queens voter (from a middle class area) was also 2-3 times more like to show up.
I don't think people in Manhattan (that is, people who live in Manhattan -- yes, there are 1.5 million of us, and we really do exist, contrary to popular belief) who use transit count either. Manhattan's been waiting for a 2nd Avenue subway since the 20's, and construction's a few years off at best.
(I don't think people in Manhattan (that is, people who live in Manhattan -- yes, there are 1.5 million of us, and we really do
exist, contrary to popular belief) who use transit count either. Manhattan's been waiting for a 2nd Avenue subway since the
20's, and construction's a few years off at best.)
People in Manhattan count enormously. As was mentioned earlier, the wealth of Manhattan residents, and suburbanites who work in Manhattan, is carrying the economy of the city and the suburbs, and the public services of Upstate NY, all while subsidizing the rest of the country also. And while there is a small group of idiot inheritors, most of this money is driven by education and income. Manhattan is one of the most influential places in the country, and even most influential Manhattanites use the subway.
Which raises an interesting question -- why isn't it built? If all that wealth and influence was mobilized, it would be. I once saw a picture of a Brooklyn rally with 30,000 people demanding a 4th Avenue Subway. If there was a rally in favor of a Second Avenue Subway, only a few folks who those with power would dismiss as "liberal loonies" would likely show. In NYC people mobilize against things, not for them.
You can likely add service to both lines very easily. I did work the numbers on 137st. It is cheaper to add service the whole line length than to make 137 an operating turning point. A terminal really takes many people to run or you have to eat the waste from deadheading.
BTW I was told that reviving the committee is going to be mentioned in the contract talks.
Thanks for working the numbers. That's an interesting conclusion, but if 242nd is at capacity already (I haven't seen any definitive statements that it is, but I've seen and heard that trains approaching the terminal often get backed up), then simply adding more service is impossible -- it has to go to some other terminal somewhere. Lenox, maybe?
Terminal hold out is not always a capacity problem. It has more to do with gap stations being asleep, too fast operation and nutty schedules.
S/B I have it down to a science on the E, M and N.
It is a product of TA speed ups and cutbacks. Most places are to busy to hold you to time, work schedules make every second of break a rare commodity and line supers that will not pay you when you are late so you steal back the time when you can. The poor crew that can't/won't operate fast gets the whole backlog of passengers.
They can improve the 1/9 lots of ways, all take $$$
"Which is cheaper per person?"
Do you have any numbers? Also, be sure to count in the MNRR people who work near Penn and will then be able to take a train directly to Penn because Penn will have the capacity to handle them.
Similarly, of course, you have to count all the Bronx riders who will get a more pleasant commute when the SAS offloads the Lex. The numbers probably still favor the SAS by a long shot, but I wouldn't mind seeing what they are.
I'm afraid all I have is a strong intuition (as, it appears from your last sentence, do you). I've also never even seen any actual claims to the contrary -- the arguments in favor of postponing subway improvements in favor of commuter rail improvements invariably try (and fail, IMO) to find compelling reasons to spend more money on fewer people. That doesn't prove the case either way, but it does strengthen my intuition.
The Lexington Ave. line has been packed for what, five, six, ten decades now? Very few people seem to be leaving the Upper East Side. In fact, new buildings are going up, and more residents are coming (and trust me, it's not in anticipation of Second Avenue). The crowding on Lexington Avenue is not driving their decisions.
I know you'd like more breathing room on your ride. I commuted from Third and 60th to Bowling Green for two years, and I would have liked more room, too. I managed by adjusting my working hours a bit, but even if that's not an option for you, the cost of this project is WAY out of line compared with the benefits.
The Lexington Ave. line has been packed for what, five, six, ten decades now? Very few people seem to be leaving the Upper East Side. In fact, new buildings are going up, and more residents are coming (and trust me, it's not in anticipation of Second Avenue). The crowding on Lexington Avenue is not driving their decisions.
I know you'd like more breathing room on your ride. I commuted from Third and 60th to Bowling Green for two years, and I would have liked more room, too. I managed by adjusting my working hours a bit. I know that's not an option for everyone, but perhaps some of the resources that would be tied up in the construction could be used to spread the flexible hours gospel more widely.
Even if that never works, the cost of this project is WAY out of line compared with the benefits.
(David, your point about money spent on the second-avenue subway serving the greatest number of current riders is exactly
what I'm against: There is very little new development to be gained by relieving congestion on the Lexington Avenue line.
Second Avenue is not the "virgin," undeveloped territory that met the original IRT along Broadway.)
Why not pretend to build the improvements you propose, attract the development, and tax it -- saving money by not building. That's what we did on Second Avenue. Then we can say that actually building later would not be cost effective, since it would no attract development.
This will both help raise tax revenue and improve the school tedt scores
It will increase expenditures for public services for all of these people, and will increase class sizes.
I guess it will increase test scores because the teachers will no longer have the time to grade papers for 70 student classes and will just give everybody an A.
Lower Manhattan (along with downtown Brooklyn) has the best transportation in the entire city: just look at all the subway lines that converge there. So suburbanites have to transfer to get there? I'm afraid transfers are a part of life. If that's too tough for them, maybe they'll move to the city themselves in search of the direct ride.
Behind all these proposals to extend commuter rail to Downtown is the assumption that suburbanites are reluctant to work in the area because they don't have a one-seat ride. I would be most interested in knowing whether that has ever been proven through statistically rigorous polling techniques or otherwise - or whether it is just an assumption, based on nothing more than anecdote and conjecture.
My SUSPICION is that much of the one-seat ride propoganda comes from old bus and trolley planning methods -- i.e., try to route through downton to minimize waiting at downtown bus stops. Obviously, since New Yorkers wait for expresses rather than stay on locals, it has been overapplied to other modes.
"the assumption that suburbanites are reluctant to work in the area because they don't have a one-seat ride. I would be most interested in knowing whether that has ever been proven through statistically rigorous polling techniques or otherwise"
What's to prove?
- Obviously the more comfortable and the quicker, the more preferable. Everyone PREFERS a one-seat ride, 10 minutes or less if possible. Sitting on a railroad train an extra amount of time is more pleasant than spending the same time getting up walking, being jostled, cramming onto a subway, etc.
- But for the right job, people will suffer longer and less convenient commutes. If I lived in CT and were offered two identical jobs, one a block from GCT and one downtown, I'd pick GCT. But if the downtown job were significantly better, I'd go downtown, and so would most people. Some people are more willing to have a lousier commute in return for a better job, some are less willing.
So the right criteria for a transit project are how much does it cost, how many people does it benefit, how much does it beneift them, and (a necessary evil) how much do those people contribute to the economy.
Even though the last criterion puts more weight in favor of suburban rail, it doesn't overwhelm the other criteria. Saving 100,000 middle income workers 10 minutes (e.g., the SAS) is better than saving 10,000 high income workers 10 minutes (e.g., MNRR to lower Manhattan).
Way to go David!
We might not have always seen eye to eye in the past, but you really hit the nail on the head here, metaphorically speaking.
Matt
Cuozzo states that downtown did all right without these links for the last 100 years, but the truth is that before the WTC was built, downtown was in a serious decline, and now, with that draw gone, and new reasons (led by fear) for companies to avoid it, downtown might be on the slide again. It's not enough to rebuild transportation links the way they were -- you have to make it BETTER and EASIER to get firms to move downtown again.
Downtown seems to be more cyclical than Midtown or indeed more than most business centers. It was on a slow decline from about the end of World War II until 1960 or so. It then enjoyed about a decade or so on the rise, spurred by the construction of modern buildings such as One Chase Manhattan Plaza, only to turn downhill in the early 1970's. It remained in a funk for another ten years or so, which is a big part of the reason why public agencies rented much of the space in the WTC at low rates. Prosperity came again in the early 1980's, helped by the development of BPC and the WFC, only to leave soon after the 1987 stock market drop. Downtown remained in tough shape until the mid-1990's, with vacancy rates for class A space pushing 20% at some times. Finally, the area recovered starting in 1995 or so, which is when the WTC finally reached near-full occupancy at market rents. As far the 'hood's current condition, well, I'd say it's still too soon after 9/11 to jump to any conclusions.
How this all ties into transit should be fairly evident. Downtown's seen these economic ups and downs in the last half-century even though its transit infrastructure has been pretty much the same. If we are to assume that the area's in a major downturn thanks to 9/11, an assumption that I'm not prepared to make, it's rather unlikely that transit improvements are going to be some sort of cure-all.
One of the problems with downtown rail right now is it's lopsided towards the western side of the island (the people at Battery Park City might not think so, but builders 85 years ago weren't thinking about an apartment/office complex built on landfill 100 yards out into the Hudson River).
When the city ripped up Water Street after World War II to widen it to four lanes and create a new commercial area, they succeeded -- by the late 1960s, new towers were going up to replace the old four to five story buildings. But the transit situation down there was actually better before the rehabilitation; the east side at least had the Third Ave. el traveling along Pearl Street and Water south of Hanover Square to South Ferry. Today, all there is in that are is the M-15 bus; the nearest subway is the 2/3 at Wall and the Fulton-B'way Nassau complex, which is an OK walk this time of year, but not three months from now.
Since the $4.5 billion is earmarked for the WTC site, some sort of transit project will get built there. How big it is, though, should depend on what finally gets built there -- with all the talk about the WTC memorial, a mega-transit hub that ate up the bulk of the $4.5 billion with a huge memorial and virtually no office space above it would be a collosal waste of cash.
As I said in the earlier post, if the city could use some of the WTC transit money to tie in a full-length Second Ave. subway line to the Broadway and Nassau lines at 63rd and Delancey Streets, and then run another leg of the line down Water Street, that would so more to improve Lower Manhttan transit access than anything groups like Broofield Properties are proposing. The down side is a three-way split like that would require a four track line on Second Ave. at least north of 63rd St., and with all the sharks out for a share of that $4.5 billion, those not profitting from a Second Ave. line would be sure to claim the city was wasting money on a four track operation, when not even a two-track line is as important as (insert your downtown transit project here).
You're right about the downtown real estate market being more exposed to cyclical trends, but I think you're placing too much faith in its ability to regenerate itself. The other way to look at it was that the neighborhood, due to its aging building stock, was on a long-term decline that was disrupted only by government intervention in the form of the WTC construction.
I think it's useful to think of downtown in the context of other aging, urban business centers around the country, which have suffered badly in the post-WW II era as governments channelled their transportation infrastructure spending elsewhere. In most other cities, that meant building highways that encouraged jobs to move to greenfield sites in the suburbs, but you can draw a parallel to focusing attention on midtown projects like East Side Access/Midtown Direct.
Relying on the business cycle to drive more tenants downtown, and passing up the chance to make fundamental improvements now, is a big gamble, which, if wrong, could hobble the area for the next century.
You're right about the downtown real estate market being more exposed to cyclical trends, but I think you're placing too much faith in its ability to regenerate itself. The other way to look at it was that the neighborhood, due to its aging building stock, was on a long-term decline that was disrupted only by government intervention in the form of the WTC construction.
Construction of the WTC did not provide a significant boost to Downtown's economy. That is why, for the first decade and more of its existence, many WTC occupants were public agencies paying bargain rents. It was only in the early 1980's that Downtown became more prosperous, a revival that was cut short in 1987 and didn't resume until 1995 or so.
My view of the situation is that Downtown is highly sensitive to changes in the national and regional economies. Its ups and downs have pretty much tracked the macroeconomic picture. The only major exception being the early and middle 1950's, when Downtown was on a slow decline even as the nation enjoyed Eisenhower-era prosperity, and I attribute that mainly to the postwar growth in suburbanization and dispersal of jobs. Whatever the reasons, that was a long time ago, and since then Downtown has followed the nation pretty closely.
As I noted in my prior posting, what all this means is that big, expensive transit projects are not likely to make a huge difference in Downtown's fortunes, even though they may be useful in other respects. Spending billions to give LIRR riders one-seat access to the area isn't going to drop Downtown's office-vacancy rate to 5%. The rate may very well drop that low based on overall economic factors, but transit won't be the reason.
I think you're overstating the weakness of the downtown market in the 1970s by focusing just on the occupancy of the WTC. Even as the complex was, in your eyes, languishing with below-market rents from government agencies in the 1970s, developers around it were laying the groundwork for the WFC and fully renting buildings like One Liberty Plaza -- which survived the departure of its original tenant, US Steel, and was quickly re-rented to Merrill Lynch. Clearly, those developers realized that the WTC's presence was a building block to support a dramatic increase in office space in the neighborhood.
And let's not forget that the WTC development was not just an office building. It was accompanied by (in fact, was the reason for) the Port Authority's takeover of the Hudson and Manhattan tubes, and a dramatic improvement of that service. I would argue, given the number of PATH commuters who work downtown, that that investment was equally important to the neighborhood's late 20th-century renaissance.
Part of the turmoil regarding downtown rebuilding plans revolves around the fact that Merrill Lynch's leases expires in 2008. One of city's fears is that Merrill will move out large numbers of employees to NJ. [It doesn't help the situation with Elliot Spitzer being all over them, starting one week after they announced they'd be returning to 1 Liberty Plaza.]
Even in the West B*F*s I've just moved from, development has centered on old industrial sites equivalent to Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. I know it might be swerving off this thread, but don't you want a transit plan that puts new employment (if it can't be in Manhattan) and housing just across the rivers -- i.e. served by subways and PATH and NOT by commuter rail?
With $4.5 billion on the table, something is going to get build downtown, because in this case the city can't hide $4.5 billion through creative bookkeeping or switch the money to some other project, since the WTC area is too high profile to sneak it by the public.
Despite it's usual hyperbole, the Post seems to be doing as good a job as anyone at pointing out some of the boondoggles that are being developed for the money (though if the Times would ever get off their collective areses and do the same thing, it would have a lot more impact).
Cuozzo's article may have gotten some of the percentages wrong, but the point behind it is right; that the money would be better spent on other things besides trying to extend a commuter rail line three to five miles into the area. However, I'm not sure from the tone of his article if he believes anything involving new subway lines should be built down there, because of the street disruption it would cause.
Of course, a Second Ave. subway line the lenghth of Manhattan that had one line going down to the WTC site via 63rd St. and Broadway while another went down to the area via the Nassau Loop would require viturally no construction south of Delancey Street (or west of Park Row if part of the line split off down Water Street). If I had a choice, that's where I would put the $4.5 billion, though some people would without a doubt complain that the money was not being used directly at the WTC site.
Cuozzo's article may have gotten some of the percentages wrong, but the point behind it is right; that the money would be better spent on other things besides trying to extend a commuter rail line three to five miles into the area. However, I'm not sure from the tone of his article if he believes anything involving new subway lines should be built down there, because of the street disruption it would cause.
That's a good observation. I got the impression that the Post is very disruption-shy, so to speak. Maybe too shy. No one wants extensive street disruption, but it can be unavoidable. Besides, it's reasonable to assume that any future subway construction would be done in ways that would minimize disruption. I doubt we'll see another 63rd Street fiasco again.
"Besides, it's reasonable to assume that any future subway construction would be done in ways that would minimize disruption."
Also, for something like the pedestrian corridor, all we are talking about is closing off John/Dey Sts. Definitely an annoyance, but not a major disruption to lower Manhattan.
Anyone know offhand if W8 and Neptune have separate 24hr exit only exits?
I'm pretty sure Neptune doesn't have a seperate 24 hour exit-only staitcase.
W 8th had an entrance/exit on the side closer to W 8th St that was exit only 24 hours a day, but was also a part time entrance.
Don't go there waiting for any trains though, as you'll be waiting until 2004 for one :)
--Mark
Man I gotta learn how to type ... staitcase ... geez!!
--Mark
You're right about Neptune. That station has 3 stairways from the street that all lead to the 24 hour booth.
Zman, Can you guess why I am asking?
Can anyone confirm or deny a new class will be starting Nov 18th or Dec 23rd?
SOrry Dude No more new classess this year Maybe in January.
According to the 2002 hiring plan the last class of T/O's this year will start on 12/23 and consist of 25 people divided among both divisions
Since I am on vacation for the next 2 days I figured I would add a few more shots. We're up to 30 now and that is just prints. Still have plenty of slides. I have added most of the BRT EL cars, as well as the HI-V, R-9, and Instruction Cars, as well as some other good stuff.
Steve
http://community.webshots.com/album/51927863xPPbto
Nice Shots! Is that a young Ted E. and Eddie S. working on 1689's pole base?
Hope you don't mind the link -
-Stef
Stef, yes that is Ted and Eddie. I have been wanting to post them on the net for awhile now. They are a mix of Tom Shades', My Fathers(Bob Loitsch) and my own starting from 1970 or so when Dad & Tom joined. Glad you liked them. The link didnt work, I still dont know how to get that to work.
Steve
Thanks. I meant to link to that photo and it didn't work. I'll never understand HTML....
-Stef
Stef,
Here's what you get when you click on the missing pic icon:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /storage/1/v4/7/96/2/52679602UKEILu_fs.jpg on this server.
Apache/1.3.22 Server at c6.webshots.com Port 80
You must have done something wrong.
That's unusual, Dan.
I 'm sure it worked. I previewed it before I posted the message and the photo came up. Oh well! I'll never understand HTML....
-Stef
Absoutely wierd Dept.
I looked at the source coding of your link, and everything looked like it was in the right place. (I'm no HTML wizard either).
I copied/pasted the link's syntax in the browser's Location line, hit enter and the picture appeared.
What was absoutely wierd was when I went back to your post, There was the shot!!
Go fig.
Webshots won't let you link to an image on their site.
If you put the URL directly in the browser it will show up.
Once in the cache, if you go back to the page with the non-working link, you might see the image there, but if you hit the "refresh" button, it will go away.
-Larry
Thanks for the assist Larry, I didnt know that. I have Emailed Stef and Sparky the below URL and it seems to work for them.
http://community.webshots.com/user/3rdavery
Enjoy
Steve L.
Steve,
I didn't get into your album, till Thurston e~mailed the link
this morning. I've book marked it and it works fine. Also
viewed the picture I e~mailed you about in a different perspective
than earlier as to location. Thanks for the "Trip Down Memory
Lane".
;| ) Sparky
Nope.
I cleaned out the Chache, reloaded the Subtalk Index.
The pic is still there.
Just got back from my week's trip to the Big City and I can tell you it was a blast. Got to meet and railfan with heypaul, Gary Wengeroff, Steve 8AVEXP, Howard Fein, Sparky, Wayne R-40, El Marko Feinman, whose name I know I spelled wrong. We had a blast and I was amazed at the knowledge displayed by Steve, Howard, and Wayne especially. They're walking encyclopedias of the New York Subway system and I learned a hell of a lot, even being able to tell the different cars apart. Mark is now in the midst of writing a new history of the subway and Sparky goes all the way back with me so he knows about the Sea Beach when it carried a number instead of a letter. Nice to know someone is older than me. I enjoyed myself but it is good to be back home.
But you didn't get to ride a train with the number four in the front window & the Mets were out of it ... and you didn't get a piece of Anon-E-Mouse's cake :-(
That's right Thurston. The #4 train is now enemy country and the Mets had better sign Big Lou on the double. They need someone to kick some ass next season. As for the cake, maybe next time.
Fred ... you spelled my name rite! :) Glad you had a great time and that I could catch the Bob & Fred Show, even if it was the abbreviated edition.
--Mark
It was great meeting you too Mark, even for a short time
You Forgot Me, Your roommate, btw I found the film
Nothing raunchy, I hope.:)
Oh shit, how could I have left out my good buddy Bob. He was also along from Friday to Monday afternoon and he was my room mate at the Penn Hotel for three nights. We avoided talking Democrats vs Republicans but the Sea Beach vs Brighton Beach arguments were as strong as ever. I layed off his Yankees because he told me he's rooting for the Anaheims in the Playoffs and World Series. We are all Angels fans for the next week or so.
Thanks, but remember you rode the Brighton more then the Sea Beach, and it was a ball. Planning to go up Dec 7-8 for the Red Bird Fan Trip
Are you two still welcome at the Pennsylvania?:)
Here is the story.
I thought it was gonna take untill next year to finish it and that it was gonna be opened next year.Oh well,the sooner the better.And again I'm mad!Part of the article said that some in the neighborhood critized the project.For Pete's sake! what in damn hell did they have to critize!? They built the new station house to make everyone's commute a whole lot easier,better and overall to help them,and they still went on and critized it!? I swear,people just want to get some freakin attention!That's all it is! Any of you wonder why I got this angry type of attitude,there's your reason:people's absoulte stupidity!
Hey, is that you, V Train M20 Bus??
-smirks evilly- wouldnt you like to know.
I see...you haven't forgotten that NJ bus thread thing, have you?
*looks sheepishly around*
-blinks confused- Apparently I have.What was that NJ bus thread about?
It was nothing really. I didn't think to greatly about the new NJ Bus stock to be received and you said I was too crazy. then I teased you. Happy?
It's the same person !!
BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I am sure its an improvement. OTOH the platforms are still inadequately narrow. "Funny" how the IRT remains the backbone of uptown Manhattan service with the narrow cars, platforms. The 'main drag' is the franchise.
Um, not everyone in the neighborhood exits at that station -- a lot of people transfer there between locals and expresses. In case you were unaware, the platforms are dreadfully narrow. This rehab helps the people who exit but not the people who transfer. Mr. Albert is right. It's nice that there are additional stairways, but additional stairways alone are of limited value.
Yes I know they are narrow.Plus if they want to transfer between the 1/9 and 2/3 they can do it in other local/express stations,not just at 72nd St.Although I somehow still get the feeling that those who transfer to the express don't really go beyond Chambers St or 96th St.
They just do because they think they save time when they really don't.
And I mean the majority of those who make the transfer.
I rarely transfer to the express at 72nd, since if I'm not going past 14th, it's probably not worth it.
I often transfer from the express at 72nd, because the express usually comes first at 42nd, and I'm not going to pass up an express that may catch up with a local before 72nd. But that doesn't always happen. Not infrequently, while I'm waiting at 72nd for a local, a second express comes and drops off its passengers. And a third. And a fourth. And maybe a 1/9 that's also running express. By the end, the platform is pretty crowded with people who don't care staircases.
Wider platforms would have been a huge help, especially on the uptown side. Then again, decent local service would be an even bigger help. That's why my eyes are focused on South Ferry.
yeah mine too.I can't wait till they finally start building that new terminal and getting rid of the old one.It really sucks when your in the back of the train and you need to move to the front but cant between the 5th and 6th cars because the conductors cab is in the way.
So you gotta exit the train and enter the next car quickly before the doors close otherwise you are screwed.
Uh, my eyes are focused on South Ferry because the redesign that most seem to be considering would seriously reduce the capacity of the entire line, and any hopes for more local service (and reducing crowding at 72nd) would be basically shot.
There are signs in every car warning you about South Ferry. The C/R makes repeated announcements and is supposed to open his cab so you can walk through from the sixth car. If you miss all of those signals, get off at Rector and walk, or go back to Chambers, cross over, and try again. Really, it's not hard.
Your point on the platforms is good - but they did lengthen them, which helps.
You underestimate the use of the staircases. The exits can get quite crowded. The new headhouse and the upcoming rehab of the old one is of great value, not "limited" value.
The southbound platform wasn't lengthened.
The northbound platform was lengthened, but only enough to reach the new mezzanine's staircase and elevator. The south end of the platform will be abandoned when the time comes.
I didn't say the rehab was of no value. I said it was of limited value. Those passengers who use the station to transfer will see little benefit; those who enter and exit will see great benefit.
Don’t you know Noo Yawkers (© Selkirk!) love to whine and moan. After all, you were just doing it yourself!
I thought something like that was going on. I visit the 72nd street neighborhood often when I'm in NYC, and I've noticed the construction going on. While the 98-year old entrance has a piece of nostalgia to it, I can tell you that it can be a pain to enter and exit that station. Therefore, the change is necessary. -Nick
As has been discussed here previously, it's stupid to have the local Brighton trains run through to Stillwell while the express trains relay at Brighton Beach. Those traveling the farthest have to change for the express. But turning the locals would involve a difficult and inefficient crossover move.
Now, however, they have shut down the whole line from Ocean Pkwy to Stillwell. Did anyone think to install a crossover on the abandoned tracks that lead down from the Brighton to the Culver level to allow the locals to relay while the expresses run through?
If not, then I've got a problem -- the TA isn't using these big capital jobs to seriously think if something should be different.
I have bad news for you: those tracks haven't existed for a long time. I think they were removed when the Culver line was transferred to the IND division.
I don't see why the local and express couldn't both go through to Stillwell. They currently share a terminal at 57/7; is the capacity at Stillwell much lower? There probably wouldn't be enough time to clean the trains at Stillwell, but when the Manhattan Bridge is fully available, the two Brighton lines will probably run to different north terminals, and the car cleaners could be transferred to them.
If I recall the distances and alignments involved, there is not room enough for the trains to relay without fouling the Culver.
Of course, it would be possible to run the locals into the E/F (5/6) tracks at Stillwell as originally intended during the hours when the express was running.
However, Larry, you've answered your own question. to characterize the TA planning process as stodgy and unimaginative would be generous in the extreme.
Reactivating those tracks was considered but rejected as too costly.
David
Well while all of you are lamenting the Brighton's exclusion from Stillwell, please not my train doesn't go there either. It doesn't go over the Manny B either. It isn't an express anymore either. So quit griping. I'm the one who should be pissed off, and I'll believe the Sea Beach will back on the bridge when I see it. I might have to bribe the TA, too. October 27, 2004 will also be my 64th birthday. I'd like to tell them it would be the ultimate present for me to ride on the Sea Beach crossing the Manny B permanently for the first time since God knows when. Of course, I'd have to get the railfan window and my film making buddy Mark Feinmann taking it all in on his cam while sharing the window with me.
Fred, it could be worse, the Sea Beach in still there and where there is life there is hope.
It could be worse. Mayor Bloomy might get the idea to fill the Sea Beach with water, and run canal boats with singing gondoliers as a tourist attraction.
Of course, it might be faster than the current service. More frequent, too...
Thanks Paul, you really put the pits in my day. I do like that boat, though. At least it wouldn't have to go through that rat hole Montague Tunnel. BTW, I saw a few of them when I traversed it the past week.
They used to sail in the Canal Street bridge station of your beloved Sea Beach before it was rehabbed.
--Mark
I was wondering if they would do it temporarily to give the Brighton tracks access to the lower deck of the terminal (tracks E-H) for when the upper deck (including track D, which is now the yard access) is demolished. Either they use the ramp, or they have to do even more complicated *temporary* reconfiguration at Stillwell, or they will have to work around track D.
(Reactivating those tracks was considered but rejected as too costly.)
Well, I'm glad it was considered.
The York Meet is tomorrow, Oct 18th, and Saturday Oct 19th, at the fairgrounds in York PA.
Anybody Going?
Not me - went to West Springfield back in Feb. 335 miles of driving plus plenty of walking was enough for one day for a while.
One of the Model RR Clubs here on LI is running two buses to the show. The bus from my area (Huntington) is leaving at 2:30 AM. I'll be fast asleep at that time.
Not me - went to West Springfield back in Feb. 335 miles of driving plus plenty of walking was enough for one day for a while.
One of the Model RR Clubs here on LI is running two buses to the show. The bus from my area (Huntington) is leaving at 2:30 AM. I'll be fast asleep at that time.
Is the South Brooklyn still in use from west (system-north) of 9th Avenue and 38th Street Yard to Bush Terminal and 65th Street Yard? I know that that route used to be the way NYCT used to receive MOW supplies via rail delivery from outside, but it seems that NYAR connection at Linden Yard is the main route for MOW supply carloads. And I haven't heard much about scrap car moves ever being made in the system anytime recently, and the rails on the connection west (system-north) of 9th Avenue seems to be well rusted over with no signs of any kind of recent rail traffic or train moves over the line. What's the story with it? Does it see any kind of usage?
It'll see usage when scrap cars are moved that way, but most subway cars are getting reefed these days. Conventional scrapping seems like a thing of the past, but that's simply my opinion.
-Stef
SBK runs from 38th Street Yards over to their interchange facility with New York Cross Harbor RR. SBK DOES NOT have running rights down to Bush Terminal (home base for NYCH).
Some frieght items are received via Linden Shops, but most items destined for the NYCT that arrive by boat are picked up through the Bush Terminal-waterfront area.
SBK's sole trackage these days is roughly 1/4 of a mile...a far cry from the old McDonald Avenue days.
BMTman is prowling around at this hour?!? As usual, he's an expert when it comes to SBK. Geez, I need to find ways to occupy my time. Too much time sitting in front of this screen. Heh.
-Stef
Yeah, Stef, time to start counting Redbirds...one Redbirdy, two Redbirdies, three Redbirdies...;)
Yeah, what u expect from some1 with no life??:):) Its not like he have a job like you and I.............;);)
That deserves a BIG FAT LOL! Yeah! May the mudslinging begin....
-Stef
They just did a move today (Fri) heard them on the scanner for permision to enter the cut (Murphy Tower??).
I tried contacting Newkirk Images via e-mail to enquire about the shipping charge for one calendar to a Canadian address, but there seems to be a problem with their address. The one I used (taken from the order form sent with the 2002 calendar) is: newkirkimages@optonline.net. Does anyone know whether they are still in business or if this e-mail address has changed?
Thanks.
Ian McCrea
Toronto, ON
newkirk@optonline.net
Ian McCrea,
I did receive your e-mail. Tomorrow, I will go to the P/O and check out the new postage rates, since they have changed. I will e-mail you back.
Bill Mangahas
Newkirk Images
Do you ship to the UK?
Max Roberts
>>Do you ship to the UK?<<
Max Roberts
Yes, Max. I'll e-mail you postage rates later today.
Bill "Newkirk"
And he makes house calls ... Branford has a fresh supply, thanks Bill.
The Transit Museum at Grand Central Station has them as well. Got mine last month.
Nicely done Bill
Thanks,
Paul
If it's Newkirk, you KNOW it's gonna be GREAT!!
(Cheap plug, but for chrissakes Sr. Bill rocks!!)
And the best part of the new calendar is that there are two pictures of the Sea Beach. Thanks Newkirk for thinking of me.
Yeah, and Unca Bill even gave me my Arnine doing a crossover on the West End line to my _favorite_ layup yard. :)
>>And the best part of the new calendar is that there are two pictures of the Sea Beach. Thanks Newkirk for thinking of me.<<
You're welcome Fred. Of course you had to settle with the (N) being a reroute and on the Astoria line. It would be a little difficult to have a shot in the Sea Beach cut with the Twin Towers standing tall.
Bill "Newkirk"
Today, I got a #2 with a 5 strip map. Oddly, the map was displaying stops for a #5 train instead of saying "Route change: Map not in service". Everything else was normal.
But earlier, I had thought to myself: how do they get the strip maps to work on the #5? It branches off into two different lines! Then I saw the strip map this afternoon. I still didn't see how they do the Peak dir express stops, but I'll see it eventually.
But that brings in mind the 'other' split on the 5 line: trains coming from New Lots (in service). How exactly does the train handle this? Does the conductor have to make all of the announcements? And Do #5 trains run in service to New Lots in the PM rush?
Any answers would be appreciated.
There must be some sort of problem up at 239th and at the East, since there seem to be quite a few 2s with 5 strip maps and vice versa roaming around in service recently. It cannot be an excuse that there aren't enough R-142s to go around since there are still deliveries coming in and Redbirds still on standby.
As far as strip maps for the two 5 branches, it is a matter of how the software was programmed after the train was first delievered and how either the C/R or T/O activate the program to correspond with the route they are taking.
I don't know that much about how the 5 to New Lots works, since I (thankfully) don't have to use the Brooklyn IRT.
No #5 trains run in service to New Lots in the PM rush. They only go as far as Utica.
As far as how we program the maps on the #5, it's pretty easy. When the T/O or C/R gets in his cab, he presses the option for "SELECT ROUTE", and a long menu suddenly appears. Then you just scroll down to the option you want. If I'm a 5 from Flat to Dyre, I just select that option. Everything is pre-programmed.
So, what happens when the train is running to Utica? Do the side displays say: "5 Utica Av"? And do C/R's have to make the announcements? (same for AM hours). How many lines are on this list anyways?
I rode on a Utica-bound R-142 one morning a couple of weeks ago on the way to work, and it was displaying the Utica destination. I can't speak to the announcements though....I got off long before. Actually, I thought the inner message board was interesting....clearly a newer version of it, perhaps out for a test run.
(5) To Crown Hts-Utica Av
(5) The Next Stop Is
(5) E 180 St.
(5) 7:06 AM
I wondered why they would add a separate The Next Stop Is "page" to the cycle since it actually doesn't communicate any useful information. The recording was also completely different vocally from the normal 5 recording. Seemed like they did a brand new one.
This mustve been the newer R142s.(6900-7000 series) The older R142s doesnt have Utica as a destination for the 5 line.
Do any 5 trains from from New Lots in the morning?
I was hanging out Friday morning at 149-GC, hoping to spot the last train of R-29's. I didn't, but I did see a NB train of R-33's signed with terminals of New Lots and E180. (The C/R also announced it was going to E180.) Were the signs correct? Is this (half of) the replacement for the train that, before 9/15, ran from VCP to Flatbush as a West Side local and then up the East Side express to E180?
On weekdays, #5 trains are scheduled to leave New Lots Avenue at 5:50 and 7:50-1/2 AM and 4:03-1/2, 4:30-1/2, 4:46-1/2, 5:00-1/2, 5:09, and 5:23 PM. All are put-ins.
David
Thanks. All in revenue service from New Lots?
I have a feeling the train I saw wasn't one of these. I wasn't keeping close track of the time, but I think the train I saw came through 149-GC around 9. Does the 7:50-1/2 AM run only to E180?
According to the timetable, they're all in service from New Lots. Frankly, I don't know what actually happens to them out on the road.
David
Oh, and yes, the 7:50-1/2 AM #5 from New Lots runs to E. 180th Street.
David
Don't you think it would be better if SOME of the E 180 Street trains went to E 238 Street (like 1 train did before) since some of those E 180 Street trains end up going to 239 Street yard OOS (I see this wherever I am near the WPR line around 10 am).
Better for whom? There aren't very many people heading north of E. 180th Street at the end of the AM rush.
David
David, whatever happened to the #2 that used to (or still does) go to NLTS in the AM and got turned into a diamond #5 train (8:59 Utica), does it lay up in NLTS, or does it go back uptown to 241 Street as a #2?
There is no more interlining between the #2 and the #5.
#2 trains are scheduled to arrive at New Lots Avenue (and lay up) on weekdays at 8:52, 9:17, and 9:38 AM. A #2 train is scheduled to arrive at New Lots Avenue on weekdays at 9:30 AM and leave in service at 9:35 AM for 238th Street, at which point it lays up.
David
several things here....
-----
There is no more interlining between the #2 and the #5.
-----
I saw some #5 trains running to E'CHESTER-DYRE with #2 strip maps little over 1 week ago.
They could(or should) do interlining(for one train), because of those #5 trains with #2 strip maps in them that I saw, so technically it could be done.
135 street on the #2 would be 138 Street on the #5, 86 Street on the #5 would be 96 Street on the #2 and etc....
-----
A #2 train is scheduled to arrive at New Lots Avenue on weekdays at 9:30 AM and leave in service at 9:35 AM for 238th Street, at which point it lays up.
-----
Riders would be more accepting if an extra #5 went to E 238 than if a #2 went there instead of E 241 Street (and lost a stop).
Can any #2 r-142's display
#2 7 AV EXPRESS
#2 TO NEREID AV-238 ST
If not, I think interlining it as a #5 would be a better option
than having a train say (or send the #2 to E 241, then back it up into the yard)
#2 TO WAKEFIELD-241 and terminate at 238 Street
BTW Why doesn't that #2 train stay at New Lots Avenue yard until the PM rush, like most other trains do? Or it could have easily went to Flatbush Avenue to turn around(unless the #2 r-142's have been upgraded to include NLTS as a terminal, which I doubt)
They do run #2 cars on the #5 or #5 cars on the #2 every once in a while. There are no scheduled interlines (i.e., train comes in as a #2 and goes out as a #5).
Which "riders" aren't accepting? How many people are we talking about here? One railfan?
As to why the #2 that goes from New Lots to 238th Street does what it does, I don't know...maybe there isn't enough capacity in Livonia Yard for that train, maybe there's more of a call for southbound White Plains Road service in the afternoon than New Lots service...could be (New) lots of reasons.
David
---------
Which "riders" aren't accepting? How many people are we talking about here? One railfan?
---------
I didn't say NOT accepting, I meant that some people wouldn't be taken by suprise that the train is not going pass 238 Street if it was a #5 instead of a #2.
You think one person is the only one who would be disappointed at wrong rollsign information (I think redbirds and r-62's are the way to go for this kind of stuff)
I mean a train that says 241, but stops at 238, I heard that people get mad and curse up T/O's or C/R's when the 6 terminates at Parkchester instead of Pelham Bay Park (and these are trains that have the correct destination on them), so that answers your question.
Oh...that's different. Of course the signage should reflect the actual terminal(s). I get POd every time I see a "Kings Highway" reading on an N train, especially when it's on a class of cars that I know has 86th Street readings.
David
Today, I got a #2 with a 5 strip map. Oddly, the map was displaying stops for a #5 train instead of saying "Route change: Map not in service". Everything else was normal.
Take note of R-142 fleet swapping to concentrate numerically.
6301-6670 likely going to the 2.
Strip maps just one more task to accomplish this and will probably lag.
Best advice is note car number and you'll understand why signs may not be correct.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What s the point of swiching cars? The #2 seemed just fine before.
BACK IN THE MIX
R142/R143MAN
What s the point of swiching cars? The #2 seemed just fine before.
Neatness! And accountability...
It will certainly make the assignment summaries easier to write up.
8-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
From what I heard and seen, the R142 #5 that are destined to Utica/New Lots are to be programmed to Bowling Green. After BG, manual annoucements. IDK why these trains dont have all the possible terminals programmed into them, and I asked around the answer seems to be the same.................
I still didn't see how they do the Peak dir express stops, but I'll see it eventually.
I've seen it on the 6. The lights for the local stops just don't light up.
We have had some talk about the "one seat ride to downtown", which made me think (always a dangerous thing to do)... Do *any* of the Chicago Commuter Train stations have a direct connection to their subway system?
I asked this because I have a different idea on how AMTRAK should schedule trains in and out of Chicago, while others complained that it would interfere with commuter services.
Anyway... I'd like to see all long distance trains arrive in Chicago before 10 AM at the latest, and the outbound trains depart between say 4pm and 8 pm. This assures good connections for through passengers no matter how late their original train is (within reason... not a given on AMTK) It also allows visitors from say New York to arrive at a decent hour, conduct their business and return to NYC at a convient time, arriveing back here in time for the next business day.
Cool, Yes!
Elias
Metra UP-North line has connection to the Purple Line at a couple of downtown Evanston stations. Metra UP-Northwest line connects to the Blue Line O'Hare branch at Jefferson Park. Finally, UP-West Metra line connects with the Green Line at Oak Park.
I meant at the terminals....
LaSalle Statiion... Union Station... They got more than that still, don't they? What transportation meets them at the train terminals?
Elias
See my other posting on this thread.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
Also, don't forget the downtown terminals:
Chicago & North Western Station: Connection to the Green Line via a short walk up Clinton Street.
Union Station: Connection to the Blue Line a couple blocks south on Clinton.
LaSalle Street Station: Connection to the Loop elevated one block north.
Randolph Street Station: Connection to the Red Line and Blue Line subways via the Pedway, and to the Loop elevated a couple blocks away.
As far as a nice short, enclosed connection such as between NYC Penn Station and the 1/2/3/9/A/C/E lines, and between GCT and the 4/5/6 lines, it doesn't really happen in Chicago. The closest contender would be the Pedway connection between Randolph Street Station and the Red Line. And that walk is just about as pleasant as walking through the bowls of Penn Station to get to the IRT.
I really don't see what that has to do with Amtrak, though... As has been explained here before, Amtrak must work their schedule around Metra; I don't think it's unfair that tens of thousands of regular Metra commuters should take priority over a few hundred Amtrak passengers.
I think the only way to avoid such scheduling conflicts would be to either A) kick Metra out of Union Station and have them run their trains into the other three downtown terminals or into a new commuter terminal, or B) segregate all Amtrak operations out of Union Station and into its own intercity passenger rail terminal, possibly in connection with a regional high-speed rail terminal. I wouldn't be totally opposed to the latter idea, but either option would involve a pretty massive capital expense, in addition to re-configuring all the track connections to seperate commuter and intercity rail operations.
My own incredibly expensive idea would be to build a lower level at Union Station dedicated to electric high-speed intercity trains. And since the electric trains woudld be double-ended, there would be no need for the complicated backing-in manuevers that Amtrak must perform at Union Station. Of course, this would require all the Amtrak lines to be electrified, but that's already on my wish list, too.
Besides, there's plenty of worse places to spend a long layover than downtown Chicago.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
Your post makes me appreciate the situation in Philadelphia where there are easy connections to subway lines at all three Center City commuter rail stations, and Amtrak trains not only use seprate tracks and platforms at 30th Street Station, but the Amtrak line doesn't terminate, but continues in both directions, so trains don't have to turn around or reverse unless they really want to. What's more, the commuter trains don't terminate, either, since the old Penn and Reading lines were connected through Market East station, so no reversals or turnarounds are necessary there, either.
Mark
Now that you mention it, Philly does have a good thing going at 30th Street. Amtrak trains pass through the station in one direction, and commuter trains pass through the station on a seperate level. What could be better? My only real complaint about Philly's setup is that the connections between SEPTA Regional Rail, the MFL, the BSS, and PATCO are almost a mile away from 30th Street Station and the Amtrak trains... It's a shame all these modes can't come together within a short walk of each other. (Example, if you're coming into Center City on the BSS or PATCO and want to ride Amtrak, you still have to transfer to either the MFL or Regional Rail to get to 30th Street. And the connection between the MFL and 30th Street Station involves walking outdoors for a ways.)
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
I agree, the transfer between regional and subway at 30th Street leaves something to be desired. I remember being very confused when I first moved to Philadelphia, looking all over the concourse at 30th St for the subway stairs! I think there used to be a better connection, some sort of passageway. I heard once that it was closed because of fear of crime, but I can't verify any of this. I'd really be happy if there was merely a covered walkway to keep me dry in the rain when transferring. Usually if I have to transfer I do it at 11th Street/Market East.
As for getting to Amtrak, the Broad Street Subway stops at North Philadelphia station, but not as many trains serve that station, and it isn't in the best neighborhood. Since you're coming from Jersey and would be on PATCO, I think it'd be really cool if that line were extended westward, which would give us a station closer to 30th. In practical terms, that's really outside of the Delaware River Port Authority's balliwick, but in my fantasy world it'd be fun. (In fact, I read on this board that decades ago in the days before PATCO and SEPTA there was a plan to extend this line west and then southwest along Woodland Ave.)
Mark
I think there used to be a better connection, some sort of passageway. I heard once that it was closed because of fear of crime,...)
That's how I remember it. There were two or three escalators connecting the southwest corner of PRR 30th Street Station with the northeast corner of the Market Street Subway 30th Street station.
It was stated on another board that this connection couldn't be re-opened today because it wouldn't be accessible to the handicapped.
30th Street on the Market Frankford line is set to receive an ADA renovation. This in itself will allow disabled riders to use the subway to reach 30th Street station; I have heard talk at SEPTA, via the ADA advisory committee, that the passageway may indeed be reopened (but also upgraded to ADA standards and to enhance physical safety). I don't know the specifics...
There were TWO connections from PRR to MFL.
The concourse indeed had an escalator in the SW corner down to a walkway to the fare control mezzanine.
The second connection which was closed in the 60'x was a tunnel connecting directly fron the platforms. The closed off stairwys down to this tunnel can be seen near the south ends of the platforms.
PS I for one would love a well documented history of 30th St with legible drawings of the many internal stairs, halls, ramps. Maybe the theme should be the stations built in the electrification project, because to me (a B&O diehard) the PRR upgrade of the WAS-NY line stands as a major achievement. The Newark and 3oth street stations are excellent "intermodal" stations.
I don't agree.
PATCO doesn't need to serve 30th Street station. It serves a different portion of downtown, and already has an ADA-compliant connection to the Market-Frankford line as well as an interchange with the Broad-Ridge Spur. It also is convenient to Market East Station.
The Broad Street line runs north-south through the city center. I suppose you could create a branch to serve 30th Street and provide new service to West Philly, but that really isn't at the top of Philly priorities at the moment.
Please note that the Walnut-Locust Station on the BSS has been designated a "key station" and is listed for an ADA upgrade in SEPTA's Capital Plan. I assume that PATCO's elevator at 16th Street does stop at the mezzanine; if so, a SEPTA elevator at the same level would allow disabled riders access to PATCO without having to go to street level.
What would be effective and is still missing (and you are free to advocate for it, if you like) is a rebuilt and fully ADA compliant interchange between the BSS at City Hall and the Market-Frankford line at 15th Street.
What would be effective and is still missing (and you are free to advocate for it, if you like) is a rebuilt and fully ADA compliant interchange between the BSS at City Hall and the Market-Frankford line at 15th Street.
Ain't that the truth! I've lived in Philadelphia for almost four years and I can still get lost trying to transfer from the Broad Street subway to the westbound Market-Frankford. Transferring from MFL to BSS is easier, but the whole thing needs to be overhauled so that it makes some sort of sense.
Mark
If I understand it correctly, that was only accomplished in the 1980's with the new commuter tunnel.
Yep, that's the way I understand the story.
Mark
I think the only way to avoid such scheduling conflicts would be to either A) kick Metra out of Union Station and have them run their trains into the other three downtown terminals or into a new commuter terminal,
Now we are getting to the nub of my point!
I think that Chicago could use a new Merta Station.
There are miles and Miles of ROW upon which one could be built
Surely a central location with good subway and transit connections or possibilities can be found.
I think that it is vital to AMTK to be able to have long-distance trains arrive in Chicago near the start of the business day, and to have departures convenient to the close of the business day that would get travelers out to what ever city they are headed to near the start of their business days.
I think that given AMTKs "If-it's-today-it's-on-time" attitude (a given with western railroading), the long Chicago layover will prevent missed connections.
And I fully agree with David:
"Besides, there's plenty of worse places to spend a long layover than downtown Chicago."
When I am travelling, I *want* more time to visit Chicago!
I see lots of empty space in Union Station... Why cannot a "Traveler's Mall" be built there, with convenience rooms for rent so riders could freshen up if they wanted, or with movies, or with city tours or something available so those who have several hours in town between trains can have a nice place to lay over if they are not as adventuresome as myself, who would make a bee-line for the subway lines and "downtown" anyway.
Bottom Line... I think AMTK can do much better in Chicago!
Chicago *is* Amtrak's hub and they need the gates for their business!
Elias
reinventing the wheel at Chicago Union Station.
A bit of history is in order. Before CUS did the "basement/skyscraper thing in the Main Concourse between the north and south gates, there were showers for rent and a Fred Harvey shop which had nderwear and sock for sale as well as toiletries. Of course back then early/mid sixties, there were more than one train per destination pair so you could schedule yourself for either a long or short layover.
As to trying to "de unify rail stations in Chicago" don't even think about it. You are bucking something over a century of movement the other direction. With west of the river as an expanding part of the CBD CUS and the C&NW (Ogilvie) locations are actually useful.
As to trying to "de unify rail stations in Chicago" don't even think about it.
AMTRAK needs to be centralized, and this they have over time accomplished. As for commuter lines, these do not need to be centralized, but they do need good connections to city subways and busses.
Bumping MARTA out of Union will give commuters enhanced access to city destinations, and will give AMTK the flexibility they need to operate a real rail hub.
Elias
Just where are you planning to put Metra?
They lost the REAL La Salle St location breaking the direct all weather connection to the Loop because the land was too valuable. The ROW to sites east of the river is gone as are the old stations themselves. . Frankly I doubt a large number of BNSF line Metra riders would be thrilled at changing to a Blue or Green line L train from some further out new station. (available capacity NOT) I am not clear the 'Milw' side could be cleared to C&NW but for the Builder and the otherwise pitiful effort ATK makes to Milwaukee its not a problem. The real jam up is the south side where perhaps grabbing the PO (Farlet, chuckle) tracks and building might be possible.
It also ensures that anyone making Amtrak-Amtrak connections in Chicago has to sit around all day -- in both directions.
(That's the reason I never took the train between Champaign and NYC, but at least the layover in one direction was "only" four hours or so. Besides, flying was usually cheaper.)
It depends on how long your trip is and whether or not you're in a hurry. I once had a layover in Chicago between two really long segments, and it was nice to have some time to get out and stretch, plus some time to explore downtown Chicago. Were I in a hurry, it would have been a different story, of course.
Mark
Were I in a hurry, it would have been a different story, of course.
Was you in a hurry, you would have flown on a plane anyway, eh?
Very true. The trip took a total of 44 hours, so cutting out the three-hour layover really wouldn't have sped things up appreciably! In fact, I was travelling from Mississippi to Colorado, a trip I used to take quite frequently, and I usually did fly, only taking the train when I had lots and lots of time.
Mark
The trip I mentioned is from Champaign, IL to NYC. By current schedules, I ride for 2:50, kill time in Chicago for 10:45, and ride again for 18:35. On the return trip, I ride for 20:35, kill time in Chicago for 6:40, and ride again for 2:25.
Or, for about the same price, I can fly. Trains are more comfortable than planes, but not so much more comfortable that I'm willing to give up two days.
I can think of five connections between Chicago's rapid transit system and commuter rail stations that no longer exist.
1) Tunnel between Union Station and the Metropolitan "L" station at Canal Street. The "L" was torn down for the Congress median line.
Trains magazine called the tunnel "Frustration Walk" after frenzied Burlington commuters seeing their train from the tunnel, but having to exit through the station.
2) Direct connection from LaSalle Street Station to the Loop LaSalle & VanBuren "L" station.
3) CTA and C&NW jointly built the "Northwest Passage" between the Clinton & Lake "L" station and the C&NW terminal. It is no longer used.
4) Direct connection from the Quincy & Wells Loop "L" station to the Wells Street Terminal of the Chicago Aurora & Elgin.
5) Direct connection from the North Shore Line station to the Adams & Wabash Loop "L" platform.
Of course, CA&E and North Shore had numerous over-the-platform transfers with the "L", in most cases affording free "L" rides for interurban commuters.
Heard on the news Bloomberg wants to re-instate a fare on the Staten Island ferry. If he gets away with it, will they make it accept Metrocards?
Sounds more bearable than his garbage plan, which would charge NYC residents to get rid of their trash. I thought we are trying to keep people in NYC here?
Ah, a little less than a decade since Giuliani's election ended the secession talk in SI, I can already hear new mutterings on th wind...
Secession will never happen, the courts ruled on the HOME RULE clause that the City has to approve it before the citizens could vote on it.
Secession will never happen, the courts ruled on the HOME RULE clause that the City has to approve it before the citizens could vote on it.
Secession is improbable, but never say never. The courts can only rule on the law and the City of Greater New York, insofar as it applies to Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island (and possibly upper Bronx County) is an animal of the New York State legislature. If there was enough political pressure to do so, the City could be forced to deconsolidate.
Remember the referendum on secession? Mario Cuomo let that go forward despite the legal questions and his own liberal politics. The City would not want that sentiment to return.
Not only should SI split from The City, it should also split from New York State which STOLE it back in the 1700's. SI is the property of NEW JERSEY and one day the residents will get fed up and demand to be re-united with their mother land.
Staten Island has never been part of New Jersey, not even in Colonial times. It has always been part of New York Colony and New York State. Before NY and NJ were seperate English colonies, they were both in the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam. That was the only time since Colonial history that Staten Island and (part of) New Jersey were the same territory.
:-) Andrew
...which is not to say we wouldn't let New Jersey have it if they wanted it.
:-D Andrew
Common misconception: In Dutch times, the city and colony didn't have the same name like they did during English times. The city at the base of Manhattan Island was New Amsterdam, but the colony was New Holland.
You are correct though that SI was never a part of NJ, neither was Liberty Island or the part of Ellis Island that remains in NY.
In 1663, King Charles II granted all of the land between the Connecticut and Delaware Rivers to his brother James, the Duke of York and future King James II. James then went ahead and granted the land between the Hudson and Delaware Rivers to George Carteret and John Berkeley.
If you haven't already noticed, the Hudson River ends before Staten Island, thus the grant never specified on which side of Staten Island the border should cross.
Even though the Hudson Canyon that extends the line of the river runs through the Narrows and it would be logical to give SI to NJ, since all of NJ was briefly part of NY, any part of NJ not specifically granted to NJ remains part of NY.
The King of England decided that the best way to solve the dispute was to have the governors of each colony commission a boat to sail around the island in a race. New York won.
This isn't the first time I posted this. Jersey Mike just feels he needs to ignore the facts.
[SI is the property of NEW JERSEY and one day the residents will get fed up and demand to be re-united with their mother land.]
Staten Islanders have a great deal going, getting (over)subsidized by the rest of the city, and then complaining that it's not enough. How would their demands for subsidies from the rest of New Jersey be received?
AND... If NJT took over Staten Island's transit services, what would the fares be? Even the S53, S79, and S93 would charge at least a two-zone interstate fare ($2.10) to and from Brooklyn, and the express routes would be at least a five-zone (North Shore) or six-zone (South shore) interstate fare, which was $3.95 and $4.65, respectively, under NJT's OLD fare structure!! Would we also see a Hudson-Richmond Light Rail line to the S.I. Mall? Would NY Waterway take over the ferry, with a $5.00 fare?
How are we Staten Islanders "(over)subsidized by the rest of the city"?
(How are we Staten Islanders "(over)subsidized by the rest of the city"?)
It's about a break even last I saw.
However, when Staten Island studied seccession, it assumed that the state would impose a settlement that was all on Staten Island's terms, with the rest of the city accepting a more than proportional share of the debt, Staten Island permitted to use city facilities like Rikers Island at nominal cost, and Staten Island residents permitted to hold city jobs but residents of the rest of the city not permitted to hold public posts on Staten Island. And, Staten Island assumed that as a more affluent area it would get more state school aid.
As for the ferry, if you are going to have free transfers, then there are so few fares to collect that it doesn't pay to collect them.
How are we Staten Islanders "(over)subsidized by the rest of the city"?
Residential property taxes on Staten Island are far less than on comparably priced houses in the suburbs.
"Residential property taxes on Staten Island are far less than on comparably priced houses in the suburbs."
Because the suburbs' county governments are so poorly run they piss away a dollar for every dollar they actually spend on something.
While the City is the very model of fiscal prudence. ;-)
Because the suburbs' county governments are so poorly run they piss away a dollar for every dollar they actually spend on something.
Except of course in Nassau, where the ratio is two dollars down le pissoir for every dollar spent.
Add in the income tax that homeowners pay, and the total tax bill is fairly comparable. SI probably still has an advantage, but that's because (a) commercial property and (b) coops and condos are taxed at a higher effective rate ($ tax per $ market value of the property) than one to three family houses in NYC. Middle income Manhattan coop owners pay as much or more tax as suburban residents when you add in the income tax.
(Residential property taxes on Staten Island are far less than on comparably priced houses in the suburbs. )
I think its time to repeal the NYC local personal income tax and unincorporated business tax, raising the property tax to far above suburban levels to make up the difference. This comment gets made over and over again. People want to pretend NYC taxes are low as a way of justifying other fiscal inequities. Get rid of the local personal income tax, and there will be no way to pretend.
I say the dump is closed ,let Staten Island go.
We dont need the mall anymore they are building one twice the size in Bay Ridge.SIRR is a joke.The Ferry is overrated and is infested with homeless,Bay st makes New Lots seem like Beverly Hills.The recent gang wars in Tottenville high school have escalated to the point no return. To recap the dump is closed ,Mall blows,transit is a joke,ferry is basically homeless hotel,property values are dropping,,and La Raza is taking over.Last final point TRAFFIC SUCKS!!
La Raza is taking over. . .
????????????????
Bay st makes New Lots seem like Beverly Hills
Gentrification came to Bay St about a decade ago. It started with Bay St Landing and now extends past Clifton.
[Gentrification came to Bay St about a decade ago.]
The "G" word is just a euphemism for "urban renewal" - which itself is a euphemism for "remove minorities and/or the poor so rich white folks can grab their land for cheap and make tons of money." It was Robert Moses' religion.
"The Ferry is overrated and is infested with homeless,"
I did not notice any such problem on the ferry when I rode.
On the whole, I liked the crowd on the boat. An interesting mix of people...
I did not notice any such problem on the ferry when I rode.
Me neither.
I also think the SI ferry has alot of homeless and very seedy people. It's worse than anywhere I've been when it comes to all the homeless, I remember several beggars just walking around yelling "money" when I rode it last winter.
The SI Mall is very good though, it's not inferior at all.
SI's North shore is a large suburban ghetto, I'll agree with you there.
Suprised about Tottenville high though, that area seems so peaceful, but I guess there's a bad element down there also.
SI should stay part of NYC, even with all it's differences. If there's anybody to blame it aint La Raza but Ja Rule.
And Wimpberg for his cop cuts, that's why you're hearing more "bad old days" stuff on the news in NYC lately.
that's why you're hearing more "bad old days" stuff on the news in NYC lately.
Media propoganda rarely relates to what actually goes on in the real world.
Media propoganda [sic] rarely relates to what actually goes on in the real world.
They're just too lazy to find out what is really going on. It's so much easier to repeat as the facts the propaganda that is fed to them by interested parties
Given the poster, wouldn't that be proPIGanda?
I have never seen homeless people on the ferry but since you guys seen it then I'll take your words for it. The SI Mall, IMO is good but some entrances are hard to find. Yeah what does Bay St have besides the area around St George and a few other spots.
The mall is good, the transit is a joke, especially the SIR its what every 1/2 hour, and EVERY HOUR late nights. A robbery or crime is just waiting to happen, it has low ridership and the buses, whew, no bus is more frequent than 15 minutes on weekends now that's something to laugh about. The current ferry boats does its job but they definitely need new, faster boats. I'm not bashing SI but these things are true.
One Question? WTF is "La Raza"??????????
WTF is "La Raza"??????????
It's a comment on the ethnic background of the population as perceived by RushHourSpecialist, who first used the phrase in this thread, and a reflection of what goes on in his head.
HELL YES!
Finally, someboody who uses logic and can read a map!
Ever wonder why New Jersey fought so hard to get the USS New Jersey? YEAH, that's right, a few 16 inchers through the Edison and Independence ought to get Bloomberg and Pakatki to come around. I figure a few of our elite 'Jersey Devil' commandos will storm the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, we should be able to get the Kidd and America there, I suppose we could try for the Des Moines, the nine 8"s would help out, we could send her north to keep you guys away from the GWB while the New Jersey pounds brooklyn and lower manhatten to keep you guys away from those bridges and tunnels, but unfortunately Des Moines won't be going anywhere for a while, so maybe a Sprucan and the Oliver Hazard Perry should be in our agenda instead, less gunnery, but should you guys get that damn sub out into the river, at least we could kill it.
We'll have to sneak past Delaware, since they own the width of the Delaware, from shore to shore (and further in some cases), south of the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and might not take kindly to trespassers with massive WWII era guns. Not that they could do anything, they have one base, with, of all things, C-5 Galaxys, other than kamikaze, they can't touch us. I worry about Maryland and Virgina, since Delaware may plead to them like kuwait, and we'll be as sunk as ever, since both states have the same power NJ has in all it's state in one of their counties (hmm, that's interesting sybology, NY as Iran, NJ as Iraq, Delaware as Kuwait, Virgina and Maryland as America and the Coallition, would that make McGreevy Saddam, and Pataki the Ayatollah? HEHE)
Anyway, back to the plan, the America/NJ battle group will round Cape May, as it does, all the crews of the DRBA ferrys will mutiny and sail north with the CVBG to serve as troop transports. Also the Coast Guard academy has promised support, adding several smaller warships to the fleet. As we sail up the coast, HH-65 helos from AC international will land on the KIDD, the SPRUCAN, and the USS Oliver Hazard Perry. Also there are some F/A-18E airframes at Lakehurst, along with a few other carrierborne planes, between them we should manage to scrape together a pretty good airwing for the USS America.
When the Battle Group passes Sandy Hook, the USS New Jersey will begin shelling key points on SI, and lower brooklyn. Among the targets, the approaches to the Verazono in brooklyn, the SI ferry dock at the army base thing in brooklyn, and also the tunnelling equipment held at 76th St Station, to dig an emergency tunnel to SI, just in case. YOU THOUGHT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, DIDN'T YOU! WANTED US TO THINK THAT IT WAS ALL HI-Vs, OR BMT El-CARS, well we know, and soon you won't be able to threaten us anymore.
As this begins to happen, a small team of Jersey Devils will row across the Arthur Kill, and jam the AK DRAW into the down position. Three NJT Comet I trains, all pushed by U34CHs (and you all wondered what happened to those, didn't you?) will zoom across the bridge, and run straight down to St George, smashing into the R44s parked there, hopefully destroying those blights that New York imposed upon the oppressed residents of Staten Island. More Jersey devils will pop out of the comets and secure the ferry terminal and any ferrys that happen to be docked. Any remaining R44s which happened to be absent from St George will be mopped up by 5 incher fire from the Sprucan and Kidd, should be a pretty easy target, slow, weak, and shiny, practically a sitting duck. Tottenville will be grabbed by paratroopers from McGuire, while tanks from Ft Dix roll across the Goethals and OuterBridge Crossings. The two groups will race north and south to secure the island, the Jersey Devils heading south, the paratroopers and Armored Divisions heading north. They'll meet just south of the Verazono, just in time to salute the Battlegroup as they head under the bridge, guns blazing on Governors Island. Once we consider Staten Island cleared and secured, we'll call in our Catenary Crew. A bunch of NJT employees to rip up the nasty third rail and String catenary like nobody's ever seen. By dawn Arrow IIIs will roam between St George and Tottenville.
As the battlegroup passes the Verazono, they will focus fire on manhatten, the Big J will begin firing on the Independnce and Edison at the IASM. Modified MC-9 Jersey Cruisers (using Nova Engines and stuff) will be used to secure the Tunnels and bridges simply by being driven into and onto them. Their engines will become solid blocks of steel and the buses will be left as roadblocks. Now our coast guard and ferry boats will come into play. The Coast Guard boats will seize every ship in NY harbor, making it safe for the battlegroup and the ferrys, the latter of whom will land at St George, delivering reinforcements and supplies for the NJT Jersey Devils. We can keep up our assult because we got the Earle Naval armament base, and it's untold megatons fo exposive just aching to be used.
Finally, with Staten Island cut off, a superior force on the water and on the land in SI, bloomberg and Pataki will be forced to end their colonization of rightfully held New Jersey Territory. While we're at it, we may as well grab the Statue of Liberty (now to be named, 'Jersey Girl of Independence', and the rest of Ellis Island while were at it, it's our anyway, you guys stole them years ago, and we want them back. Once our plan is finished, a great cheer will go up, from Tottenville to Ak Draw to St George, since SI will be finally freed from years of horrifying imperialsit rule from miles across the water in the mystical land of 'City Hall.' Just to make sure that the Slimy mainland New Yorkers keep their promise to never threaten the Newly libeated county of Staten Island, the USS New Jersey will be parked in Bayonne, the foreward two guns facing Lower Manhatten, and, just to keep you honest, every so often we will sail it out onto the harbor,make sure it's closer to manhatten than Jersey or SI, and let a salvo rip, aim toward the Hudson around Yonkers or the LI sound, just for fun.
OH, and did I mention that you guy will still have to give free Ferry service to the SI residents? Even though they now pay NO taxes to your city or state, so there.
Oh crap, I think I may have said too much, gotta go.
Finally, someboody who uses logic and can read a map!
Apparently you and JM can read maps, but don't know what those dotted lines are for. Some of them have names on either side. The dotted line through the Arthur Kill seems to have the words NEW YORK on one side and NEW JERSEY on the other, whatever that means.
I live in one of the four real NYC boroughs, and I say let 'em go!
;-) Andrew
Of course, they came up with that ruling AFTER we had voted on seceding.
As a former resident of S.I., I have mixed emotions about that. West Brighton was just a hop skip from the ''city'',but it was a pain in the neck to get back and forth!!Train,ferry and bus! gezz. If there was a subway from ST George,alot of that travel time wouldn';t exsist.
If Staten Island secedes over a ferry fare, I have one thing to say:
TOLL THE EAST RIVER BRIDGES!
Why not toll the bridges instead of a the ferry fare? Encourage, not discourage, use of mass transit.
Could anyone really object if the fare was integrated into the transit system? That is, charge the regular subway/bus fare but allow free MetroCard transfers from S.I. buses and railway, and allow another free transfer in Manhattan. This way the tourists would have to pay, and those of us that drive to the ferry and then walk to Chinatown from South Ferry would also pay. Of course, since we would be paying we would probably take a train to Chinatown.
I think it should be integrated with the transit system. Most commuters who use the ferry are already paying their fare from the SIR, subway, or bus. Make it a transfer for them, but for tourists who are riding should have to pay a fare.
Eventually they are getting new boats, so the money has to come from somehwere.
If he gets away with it, will they make it accept Metrocards?
The stated reason why it was made free was that it cost too much to integrate into Metrocard. Cubic is raking it in on all the design changes.
The real reason it was made free was twofold:
1. The farebox recovery on the ferry was so low that the cost of collecting the fare began to rival the cost of the collecting it. Integrating MetroCard might have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
2. In light of one, it was a relatively cheap way of politically stroking Staten Islanders (like the almost non-fare on SIRy) and helped end secession talk.
And a couple of historical notes. Because the SIRT once owned the ferry, you could buy a SIRT commuter ticket including the fare. And, in the Soviet Union, fares on some little tramway systems were eliminated because the subsidized fare brought in less money than the salaries of the people who collected it.
Would it be restored to the 50 cents it once was or will it go up?? If it is higher or if a fare is reinstated, lets see how much people complain.
At risk of turning this thread off-topic, what's wrong with charging people for the shit they create? The more waste they make, the more they should pay. It would help reduce the amount of waste the population creates, which is good for the environment.
Does NYC pay for garbage thru taxes or what?
>>> what's wrong with charging people for the shit they create? The more waste they make, the more they should pay <<<
As a practical matter, there has to be a uniform mandatory charge for picking up residential trash. This amounts to a tax. Since everything one buys eventually ends up in the trash or the toilet, it is not illogical to use sales taxes to pay for trash pickup. If the fee is voluntary or an attempt is made to charge according to individual volume of trash, there will be a great incentive in low income areas to do illegal dumping in vacant lots, parks and open cut subway lines like the Sea Beach line. This would result in a massive public health problem, and the city would end up picking up all the illegally dumped trash in the end. Generally commercial establishments pay private haulers to remove their trash.
Tom
NYC needs to stay clean. What Bloomberg wants to do will backfire, as the people who cannot afford to pay garbage pick up fees will illegally dump, all over the city.
At least, only charge fees to people with excessive garbage amounts, or incomes over $150,000.
(What Bloomberg wants to do)
What do you want to do? The choices are all bad, because those who matter have taken the money off the top.
As it happens, most garbage collection in the U.S. is funded by fees. NYC funds it by taxes, and as a result New Yorkers throw out more garbage per capita than others. And no one worries about where it goes, or will accept less expensive solutions, so the cost of disposal soars.
The only way they could charge for garbage quickly is to divide the cost of collecting and disposing of residential garbage by the water use of residential customers, then add another surcharge to the water bill. This would encourage water use, and eliminate the incentive for illegal dumping, while eliminating the cost of figuring out who is throwing out how much. Next, those who think they throw out less relative to the water they use (ie big time recyclers) could opt to be charged a measurement fee and be billed for actual stuff chucked.
Is this good? No. It's like a two dollar subway fare, a charge for parking on the street, a property tax increase, and income tax increase, etc. We won't be choosing among these alternatives. We'll be doing them all. At least with fees, there is a chance that the service will continue to exist. Otherwise, they will end up like our "free" public restrooms -- non-existant or disgusting. Just be glad you don't have school-aged kids -- NYC's schools ARE non-existant and disgusting.
NYC's schools ARE non-existant and disgusting.
Schools are only as good as the students who attend them. A person can succeed in a crappy school, and do poorly in a great school.
NYC just has non-existEnt and disgusting parents, and the rest have their children dragged down by relying on useless schools.
People who move to those good suburban districts are affluent and care about their children. NYC residents who are affluent and care about their children send their children either to the good public schools with entrance requirments or to private schools.
Schools would be alot better off if the less than affluent didn't reproduce like Mormons.
>>> Schools would be alot better off if the less than affluent didn't reproduce like Mormons. <<<
Is there a special way Mormons reproduce? I thought they used the same old fashioned way all the rest of us use. :-)
Tom
They use the same old fashioned way, they just use it more often.
At least, only charge fees to people with excessive garbage amounts, or incomes over $150,000.
Commercial establishments already pay for private garbage carriers, and I post this from time to time and you still ignore it, people with higher incomes already pay more taxes. People with excessively high income cheat on their taxes, so people with 6-figure incomes who don't have Swiss bank accounts end up bearing that burden.
If you had your way, I'd just dump all my garbage in front of your home. You don't make $150,000 a year, so you won't have to pay for it.
They already charge us for the shit we create! My water/sewer bill hits me for X amount for water usage AND X +1/2X for sewer use, on the theory that what goes down the drain must be more than what came out the water pipe to start with.
Yes, we already pay for garbage removal through our taxes. As for my garbage, I don't make most of it. It is foisted upon me by ridiculous amounts of packaging AND the leaves dropped upon my yard by the CITY's trees.
And junk mail. Most of my garbage is actually junk mail!
Junk mail goes in the paper recycling bin.
Oh, well we don't have those here in Sea Cliff.
Why don'y you compost your leaves into mulch
Cause I don't have enough extra yard space for the amount of leaves. By the middle of September, I had already put out 16 bags of leaves. Starting right after Halloween, Sanitation collects leaves once every other week for six weeks for composting. I try toget as much out then as possible.
Informed sources tell me that the car wash track at Concourse Yard has been closed, due to the retaining wall next to it being in danger of imminent collapse. A few days of rain could cause the wall to collapse. Details as they develop.
Peace,
ANDEE
I knew that wall looked shabby! Be careful of a slide or rocks or trash! They could put a new one in, quickly, its only a 5 ft wall.
From what I understand the wall is not that old.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably built by the lowest bidder.
You know it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll take a look at it after school. I'll post what I see.
Yikes I was there last night. The tracks usually are wet due to bad drainage from the wash but water was coming out of the drainage walls all night and the area next to the wall was VERY wet. They moved the storage out of Ave X for because of the water so it is no news that CCYD was a mess too.
I had written up the yard for the water over some time before my ddeparture, and gotten several wiseass responses from various departments over this. The wash area at 99 switch was not engineered for proper drainage, the automotive car wash on Jerome Avenue I believe is partially responsible for the leakdowns to the Concourse car wash. I will not cry if the thing collapsed. Maybe by now, they will start replacing the worn out protection boards there while they are at it.
I remember you warned me about that when i was breaking in that yard with RH. Now there were several giant rats near that drainage.
To have all that drainage coming into the yard from the wall and the auto car wash THEN the additional water from rain and the yard car wash it is a wonder you can't swim out.
BTW I saw the pictures of the goodbye party. Who were the spanish chicks in the bar with the big....
BTW I saw the pictures of the goodbye party. Who were the spanish chicks in the bar with the big....
The big what? Inquiring minds want to know.
Friends of a friend. They are having a Christmas Party soon, I may have to crash that, they will have more friends of friends there. It is a strange feeling seeing crews I have worked with for so long from the passengers point of view now. I still have a cigar and a beer with a few of them lately, you were my family for so long. Life goes on, I will be certified by next Friday pending my final written and practicals Thursday and Friday, and continue to enjoy weekends through my picked job. After I pass probation, I will have a big bonfire with my old uniforms and paperwork I don't need. Finally got my last paychecks after two months. Now I get one every week. I'm going to check my watering hole out for now, I earned it.
>>>...the automotive car wash on Jerome Avenue I believe is partially responsible...<<<
I never thought of that, but yes they are probably a major contributor to the problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
A clogged storm drain, too that area is near the bottom of a hill? As I said water was pouring out of at least two pipes at 4am.
UPDATE....29 track (wash track) was taken OOS by the D line supt. and he was not going to put it back in service until, a higher authority than him tells him to. A supt. from command center told him to put it back in service. So...if anything happens he has CHA.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd tend to agree with the guy downtown. A couple of Hippos should easily hold back the dirt if the concrete lets go. :)
LOL...
Peace,
ANDEE
The retaining wall varies from 2 1/2' high to about 4' high. It's made of ties and simply protects the land adjacent to Jerome Ave. to wash away and cover 29 track.
As it happens, I was assisting in a survey of the yard, we observed the wall leaning over. This wall has been leaning for quite some time but it appeared to have shifted after the recent rains. I notified the D Line Supt. and the track was removed from service pending insppection by track Dept. They certified it's safety and the track was returned to service.
The wall is leaning BUT is in no immediate danger of collapse.
Sanchez' latest STORY of life in the subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
They should have waited for help to arrive.............
Hey, gotta do what ya gotta do, you know?
Some people still don't believe in checking accounts.
I agree. They should have waited for a transit worker to get it.
Is that an automatic arrest if caught by the police?
I guess it be up to the discretion of the officer.
I remember one time, some years ago, I dropped my keys on the track at the Trenton, N.J. station of AMTRAK/NJT. I told an employee about it and he told me that I could get them myself, since the closest train was 20 minutes away, I jumped down, got them, and walked to the end of the platform and climbed back up the ladder that was there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today's Times has an article blaming excessive speed as the cause for the derailment.
Thank you for posting that.
If the Times reported the story accurately, it brings up the possibility that a speed restriction programmed into the train's computer will be all that is necessary to address the issue at hand. It is also possible that the train's operator will be found "at fault" for the collision - this depends on whether or not the allegation, that Bombardier or the PA sanctioned an unsafe high speed test, is proven to be true.
...it brings up the possibility that a speed restriction programmed into the train's computer will be all that is necessary to address the issue at hand...
A safety system should not be so easily defeated. As I had mentioned earlier, such an accident would not have been possible had this been a conventional fixed block system. One should demand nothing less from CBTC systems.
"A safety system should not be so easily defeated. As I had mentioned earlier, such an accident would not have been possible had this been a conventional fixed block system. One should demand nothing less from CBTC systems. "
An irrelevant (and intellectually dishonest) post since crrent information points to systems being purposefully disabled.
What I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about is why you take potshots at the TA and PA this way. Were you denied an engineering job there or fired from a consulting role at one time?
An irrelevant (and intellectually dishonest) post since crrent information points to systems being purposefully disabled.
I am willing to wait for the NTSB report to explain the details of how the safety interlocks were disabled before passing judgement as to how relevant this was.
Individual safety systems are purposely disabled all the time during operations. However, such single or multiple disablings, should not compromise overall safety. Let me cite an example. Current signals have mechanical trippers that will stop a train before a crash. However, this system can be purposely disabled on a car-by-car, if the brakes on a individual car are cut out. Disabling an individual car does not by itself pose a safety risk, unless the disabled car happens to be the first car. This means that the first brake system to be actuated will be on the 2nd car. The IND designers realized this and purposely added 60 feet to the blocks so that a train would stop safely when the brakes tripped on the 2nd car.
Some 30 years later the TA decided that having separate brake systems on each car was not cost effective. A single brake system was shared by two cars that formed a married pair. The braking system could no longer be disabled in a single car - it had to be disabled in both cars. Cutting out the brakes on either the first two cars meant that a train would pass 120 feet over a tripper before emergency brakes were applied. The TA did not reposition the trippers on their switches either because they did not consider this or because they felt that it was unnecessary. Some ten years later, an empty GG operated from the third car (because of brake failure in the first two cars) went through a red light that was protecting a switch at the same time that a diverted GG, packed with passengers, was moving from the express to the local track. The packed car was nearly sliced in half and two passengers were killed.
Where did the fault lie? Was it operator error or was there a system failure? How would you assess the fault?
...why you take potshots at the TA and PA this way. Were you denied an engineering job there or fired from a consulting role at one time?
I have never applied for nor occupied an engineering job (or any other job) with any rail agency or firm consulting in the railroad field.
"Individual safety systems are purposely disabled all the time during operations. However, such single or multiple disablings, should not compromise overall safety. Let me cite an example. Current signals have mechanical trippers that will stop a train before a crash. However, this system can be purposely disabled on a car-by-car, if the brakes on a individual car are cut out. Disabling an individual car does not by itself pose a safety risk, unless the disabled car happens to be the first car."
An interesting example; again, not relevant at all to this specific discussion. The relevant example would be a safety system intentionally disabled on the entire train (eg no trippers working at all).
You ducked the question I posed concerning which phases of the operation should be covered by the safety systems. Manual operation of AirTrain will be an infrequently used option. Manual operation with some safety interlocks inoperative will be an even less frequently used mode. How should the safety systems respond to such operation?
Again, we do not yet know the important details of this accident. However, I would not simply dismiss this as "pilot error" without trying make a system capable of overcoming the same type of pilot error.
When I got off the "A" Train at Howard Beach Station and headed down for a ride to JFK I happened to pass a sign that heralded great changes to be made there and one was an Airtrain to the airport. I didn't stop to peruse, unfortunately, and so I'm in the dark as to where this train will start and stop. Any help out there? I think it is a hell of an idea because we were packed like sardines in that Port Authority Bus. It made numerous stops along the way and when we finally got to our terminal it was even hard to breathe.
Everything you ever wanted to know (except when service will start) at http://www.airtrainjfk.com/airtrain/.
I didn't duck any question. You have a peculiar habit of holding a conversation about "A" while everyone else is talking about "B."
I personally agree with you that it is premature to dismiss this as "pilot error." Imerely state that this has entered the realm of possibilities, given what the NTSB has already disclosed to the public.
I think your example added a third and maybe fourth issue and more?
Was that a 75' car? That train must have been pneumatically isolated too, was it going faster than 10 MPH and the flagger in constant communication, likely not? Was this train also operating under the two for 1 rule, with 4 cars impossible? Or moving during restricted hours when a siding was available? There is a point where if every precaution is gone it is just dangerous.
BTW if this was at QP I can still hit a V crossing over with good brakes in the first car.
I was referring to the accident at Roosevelt Ave from the early 1970's. The points I'm raising are how inclusive of all operating scenerios must a safety system be and how much should it rely on carrying out of procedures by operating personnel.
One of the two people killed was politically active. There was an independent study, by prominent engineers, commissioned by the Lindsay Administration that detailed the findings I related in my previous post. The TA's study's scope was limited to actual events of that day and reached a "pilot error" conclusion.
BTW if this was at QP I can still hit a V crossing over with good brakes in the first car.
The emergency brakes are a lot worse than those for which the IND system was designed. The specification was that the train had to stop within 250 feet while going at the maximum attainable speed. This specification was first relaxed to 275 feet, with the introduction of the R10's. The Williamsburg Bridge accident occurred some 288 feet after the following train was tripped while going at an estimated 34 mph on an uphill. On some of the on site emergency test that occurred after the accident, the stopping distance exceeded 360 feet.
Chances are operating rules have changed since then, I would not be surprised if deferred maintance on the other cars was a unnmaed factor, too. That same scenario can still happen but it would involve LOTS of rule violations.
Any knowledge on how fast it was supposed to be travelling? I have done OTOH with half a dead train already it is an experience. At t10 MPH it feels like it brakes fairly normal at anything above that you feel like you have nothing. I do know that TSS's cheat with the angles to get more braking power although I do know if it is a TSS only thing or something they do on their own.
Chances are operating rules have changed since then
We have been assured that many of the current rules are because of this incident.
I would not be surprised if deferred maintance on the other cars was a unnmaed factor, too.
The question of why a train should fail 4 stations after it went into service was not raised.
That same scenario can still happen but it would involve LOTS of rule violations.
The design philosopy had been that an automatic system should and would ensure safety regardless of how many rules were violated. The mayor's commission showed how then current TA managment had strayed from that concept in their design of new cars.
Any knowledge on how fast it was supposed to be travelling?
I would have to go back to the description at that time but I believe it was between 5 and 7 mph. It was just starting from a complete stop at Roosevelt Ave.
Train Dude would know the exact mechanical scenario, but I think
your description is slightly inaccurate. First of all, yes ou can
BCO an individual car of a married pair. The pneumatic operating
units are present on each car. Second, pulling the BCO does not
isolate the trip cock from the brake pipe, it just cuts out the
pneumatic operating unit on that car.
I believe what happened is that there was a brake pipe rupture
and the RCI isolated. Since there are no couplers between
cars in a married pair, he pulled the angles between the 2nd
and 3rd cars. This would have had the same effect you decribed.
Jeff ... bada boom, bada bing! That's PRECISELY what I learned in school car, a few months after the event. OTOH was practically BANNED at the time given the problem of 120 to 150 feet of train potentially being pushed past an "X" ball without operating brakes, and as best as I can remember, the cocks did NOTHING when they passed the tripper. Chowtime wasn't until the third car hit it and by then, it was too late.
I'd like to hear some feedback from the people here with real rail experience. Is going through a 1000' radius curve (a guesstimate given by one poster) at 58 mph the kind of thing that is likely to lead to a derailment?
The sideways acceleration is (speed squared)/radius, which comes out to 7'/sec^2, or .225 g's. Is that really enough to derail a train?
The same sideways acceleration would be seen if you go through a 100' curve (the 6 at City Hall, maybe) at about 18.5 mph.
The most important facts needed to answer the question, and not in the article, are the bank on the curve and the height of the center of gravity on the AirTrain.
What likely happened is that the AirTrain's center of gravity was too high for the speed on that particular curve. As I speculated earlier, if some or all of the concrete ballast shifted, that would have aggrevated the situation.
You have to figure the torque force by multiplying the height of the center of gravity by the sideways acceleration. The purpose of a bank is to redirect some of this vector force into holding the object to the track/road.
In short, as with almost every modern engineering problem, you need a chain of failures (excessive speed, inadequate bank, and possibly shifting load).
"In short, as with almost every modern engineering problem, you need a chain of failures (excessive speed, inadequate bank, and possibly shifting load)."
That is so true. There are several issues that need to be factored in, many of which have already been mentioned:
The cant, or bank, of the rails.
The grade of the trackway.
The suspension system of the rail car.
The center of gravity.
The 16,000 lb. load.
The rate of acceleration (or decceleration).
The true radius of the curve.
...and more I can't think of right now,
Matt
I would agree with NewHavenJohn, who also posted about the "cant" of the rails having an effect, but YES, operating into a 1000 radius curve *IS* likely to cause a derailment, 30 or below would have been a more prudent speed, even for an Arnine. 58 *is* excessive speed.
Thank you. I'm surprised that a relatively moderate force can derail a train, but it's definitely something I know nothing about.
My thought would have been that since an automobile can go around a 1000' radius curve at 58 mph without skidding, and a rail has a more solid grip than road on tire, the train should have done it too.
But I learn something new every day.
In general, trains *CAN* deal with it and NOT derail. The issue is, do YOU want to be at the handles when it does? Folks who operate railcars are taught to be cautious and not put the geese at risk. Without knowing the specifics of the cars, the track and other factors, I would think 30 or less to be a safe and practical speed. Even if other trains routinely round the curve at 60 and nothing happens, if MINE did at 31, NTSB would write me up for unsafe speed for rail conditions. Once THAT happens, you end up selling paint for a career. :)
And while tracks eliminate the need for a steering wheel in a train cab, flanges CAN climb over and you're done. On "real" railroads, 1000 foot radius would be considered a sharp turn.
Tell ya what ... let's put this into an easy, VISUAL experience so it'll make sense why trains can't do what cars can for a given radius. Check out the width of a car's tire print on a road when it's wet. Also bear in mind that you have the FRICTION of rubber and rough road surface. That's some SERIOUS "stiction" that helps to roll through a curve.
Train wheels and track are smooth steel on smooth steel, which makes slippage pretty easy. Now let's take it one step further - the AMOUNT of contact a car has with the road is a LOT more than a train wheel has with the track. Thanks to Notch-it's pictures, take a look at THIS one where the wet track actually allows you to see JUST how LITTLE contact there really is between a train wheel and the rail. This ought to make it EASY to understand the limitations:
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st/pages/bera-st570.htm
And, of course, once a wheel leaves the rail it no longer has contact with anything to regain control, unlike a tire on a road.
Isn't this why on sharp turn they put an additional rail on the inside of the inner running rail?
Yes.
As Ron said, Yes. The objective of the "protection rail" is to help capture the flange if it wants to go that way, and generally it helps. But if you're speeding and you hit a curve, bounce, and the flange goes up in the air, sometimes that isn't enough to help either. If you had a peek at that photo I pointed to in the previous message, you might have noted that those two pennies actually lifted the Arnine right off the rails. Yes, even the thickness of a penny is enough to make a wheel come off the rail, that's why you don't screw around. :)
Interestingly enough, my dad actually did this with a number of nickels.
They were completely flattened! Why are these two instances so different?
Nickels are a bit higher and cause more wheel contact. More of the coin is squashed. Nickels these days are a composite of metals, forget what specifically but basically, they're just larger pennies dipped in silvery shiny on the outside. Same for Quarters. But the size and extra thickness of the coin makes for a more pronounced effect through greater contact.
I'd be surprised if there was a lot of "nickel" in nickel.
There isn't aside from the plating. I don't remember if it was steel or copper, my bet is steel but they've been changing the metallurgicals over the years so I don't know quite what the proportions of this and that are these days.
I believe that the nickel is made of alloy, rather than being plated. Compare the dime and quarter, which are sandwiches.
Nickels these days are a composite of metals, forget what specifically but basically, they're just larger pennies dipped in silvery shiny on the outside. Same for Quarters.
BZZZT! Twenty whacks with a shoe paddle and you get to ride with the geese for a week :-)
US coin composition, current production:
Pennies (since 1982): zinc core, copper outer layer, by weight 97.5% zinc, 2.5% copper [prior to 1982 pennies were an alloy of 95% copper, 5% zinc]
Nickels (for over 100 years): an alloy (not a clad coin) of 75% copper, 25% nickel
Dimes, Quarters, Half Dollars, Eisenhower and SBA Dollars (since 1965, except half dollars [they had some silver until 1971]): three layers, the outer two being the same alloy as used in the nickel (75% copper, 25% nickel) with a middle layer of pure copper
Sacagawea Dollars: three layers, the outer two being an alloy called manganese brass (77% copper, 12% zinc, 7% manganese, 4% nickel) with a middle layer of pure copper
Back to school car for you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Nickels (for over 100 years): an alloy (not a clad coin) of 75% copper, 25% nickel"
Except from 1942 - 1945, when it was:
56% copper, 35% silver and 9% manganese
-Larry
Right... I didn't think about the war years. Pennies were also steel for one year in there... not sure if the alloy changed for some of the other years or not. That was slightly before my time, although I remember the steel pennies circulating when I was young (I saved a couple of rolls of them... still have them tucked away).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OHNO Mr. Bill! Not schoolcar again! I'll gladly shine the brake shoes, but NOT schoolcar! Yeah, didn't know what they were doing or if it had changed, after all when they proposed PLASTIC coins a few years ago, I lost interest. Thanks for the details!
So just how much sucking up is this gonna cost, me Bro? :)
Hey, we'll forgive ya this time, Kevin... sometime I'll have to tell you about the nickels that I had Amtrak flatten at Newark, Delaware... now THAT was a high-speed squish!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I tell ya, NotchIt's pictures of the railprint were amusing. I never did the penny trick on rails, had friends that had done it, saw the squishers and that was good enough for me. Anybody that knows me know that I have the utmost of respect for equipment and property and although the likelihood is EVER so slight, I never did any of that myself for fear that it could somehow cause a derailment.
I talk a lot, but I'm a cautious witch. :)
Plastic coins? I think I have a few of those, although they're kind of rectangular. If you have any I'll be glad to take them off your hands and see that they're properly disposed of... :)
Heh. I don't think our mints ever did it, but they were talking about it years ago when DADDY was President. Got the militia types MIGHTY twitchy ... speaking of which, whatever HAPPENED to all those militias now that we could USE them overseas? :)
So like, hey ... does this mean that the next major Darwin event on the subway is foamers from every borough running down the stairs at the end of the platform to drop coinage in front of the express? Should the TA invest in tip jars? :)
But the larger the area of contact between wheel and road, the less the pressure (=force/area) exerted. So a large contact area isn't always better; to a first approximation it matters not at all! Now, sometimes a large contact area is better, for example if there are slick spots on the surface. But sometimes a small contact area is better, if for example the surface is soft - snow for example.
Absolutely ... and less contact area means less *DRAG* which is pretty important with 80 tons per gondola and so on ... but it's HELL on powering or more importantly STOPPING ... for anyone who can't figure out why a train can't stop like a car, that contact area does sorta show off the point. Normally folks can't determine exactly how much of contact area there is with trains on the rail, thanks to the rain that day and wheels that had been sitting in a barn for a while, the rusty edges on the railhead made it QUITE visible.
Now when you have hundreds of tons of steel with contact area with the "road" that amounts to about the size of a DIME, you can pretty easily figure out that a train in emrgency does take a while to stop. I just thought NotchIt's picture there REALLY made the point since we've all talked about this before. I'm a firm believer in show and tell myself, and that picture showed the reality NICELY.
>>for anyone who can't figure out why a train can't stop like a car, that contact area does sorta show off the point. <<
I always thought it was the MASS. Momentum's m*v, and the braking force is quite simply the rate of change of momentum, or the mass times the acceleration in this case.
A little thought experiment: take a fully loaded train going at top speed. Turn it on its side so the contact area is a full 8' x 60'. Doesn't it still take a long distance to stop? I'd imagine it's quite a bit shorter than if the thing were running as god intended, but much of that is because the contact area between the train and the running surface is being turned to confetti, which absorbs kinetic energy like nobody's business.
Heh. Well, the CONTACT AREA when trying to brake does play a factor and if the wheels are sliding, you can apply all you want and nothing much will happen other than your wheels going "clop clop clop" next time you take power. :)
Using Carbodsky for braking will result in a MUCH shorter stopping distance, especially if there's wayside poles, pillars and such to aid in the braking. Yes, your science is correct, but the changing of the momentum DOES require a bit of friction for the physics to actually work. Moo.
>>> the contact area between the train and the running surface is being turned to confetti, which absorbs kinetic energy like nobody's business <<<
And with hard braking, the wheels get flat spots mostly from the metal wearing and melting away from the kinetic energy being absorbed by the wheels sliding on the rails. The larger area of the side of a boxcar can absorb much more energy and therefore stop the train much sooner.
Tom
The analysis is complicated and non-linear. The physics textbook
first-order approximation says that friction is proportional only
to the total normal force acting between the surfaces in contact.
I.e. it is independent of contact area. However, it turns out
that with small contact areas and high pressures, the effective
coeff. of friction goes down.
Yes - the actual coeff. of friction depends on the nature of the surfaces making contact, though to a fairly good approximation it only depends on the normal load, meaning it's independent of contact area. My guess would be that there are instances in which the effective frictional force increases with small contact area as well, though I don't know enough of the phenomenology to go into detail. Might be something interesting to look into...
Of course there's a way around everything - instead of using the train's weight to provide friction, you could have clamps that come down horizontally onto the tracks and tighten down hydraulically on the sides of the tracks - now the whole pressure = weight/contact area thing is circumvented altogether. Of course an out-of-control train using such braking might rip the rails off the trackway....
Of course there's a way around everything - instead of using the train's weight to provide friction......
This is what "track brakes" do, except the brake shoe is applied
against the head of the rail through magnetic attraction. This
force is independent of the weight of the train and therefore
gets around the old 0.25g adhesion limit problem.
Geez, Unca Jeff ... now you've opened a can of worms as far as THIS place goes ... soon, you'll have folks gassing off about how putting huge coils under the Hippos will allow that extra "oomph" for braking, the signals can be retimed now, field shunting restored and soon you'll have flocks of hippos barreling down the tunnels at 75 MPH with just a few parts stolen from Branford's PCC's ... I hope you're happy now, son. :)
Or maybe just wrap the rails around the wheels until she comes to a smooth stop as the carbodsky sides get shaved. :)
How about mounting small rubber tires (about the size of wheelbarrow tires, but much higher quality) on both sides of each truck and only put running surfaces on curves. That way if the train begins to lean, the tires can take up the load and keep the trian on the rails. The only expense would be tires on semi-rigid mounts and reinforced concrete runners on curves.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
>>> How about mounting small rubber tires (about the size of wheelbarrow tires, but much higher quality) on both sides of each truck and only put running surfaces on curves <<<
Are we seriously talking about training wheels for the Airtrain?? :-)
Tom
Actually, I was thinking of horiziontally mounted wheels, running against a "stem wall" on curves.
There are some monorailsd which utilize that concept.
In order to do that, the PA would have to, inaddition to modifying rolling stock, built a set of rails suspended above and alongside the tracks which would engage these wheels.
Maybe they should also have wheels on the bottom of the tracks in the manner of a roller coaster.
#3 West End Jeff
If for some reason, when you click there and just get the banner, hit "reload" and you should be able to see it ...
Very interesting...
Quoting the online article:
"They say that the speed regulator was intentionally disabled for the test, and that the train could not have remained on such an inclined curve at a speed of 55 to 58 miles per hour, which an onboard recording device recovered by the National Transportation Safety Board showed it was traveling at the time of the accident."
So I guess that pretty much answers the question about how fast the train was going.
"'The outcome was predictable on paper,' said one federal investigator, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The investigator did not say what the maximum safe speed on the curve should have been, but said the train was far exceeding it."
"The investigation, though preliminary, has not turned up any fundamental design flaws with the train or with the elevated rail that might have contributed to the accident and would force a rethinking of the project."
That's reassuring, although the public relations damage has already been done, and a life has been lost.
"But many important questions remain, among them whether Bombardier Transportation, the Canadian company that built and was testing the train, called for it to be traveling that fast at that section of track on Sept. 27, and whether the operator, Kelvin DeBourgh Jr., 23, alone in the train, was exceeding the speed specified in the test."
...and now, the lawsuit.
Matt
...and now, the lawsuit.
That ain't the half of it. If it's true that "the outcome was predictable on paper," there could be a criminal prosecution for negligent homocide or even manslaughter. It would depend on just how clearly the risk shows up when someone crunches the numbers.
Local trolley system to lift taboo on ads
Ban will be waived for 4 months only
By Jeff Ristine
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
October 3, 2002
Since its first trip from downtown San Diego to San Ysidro, the San Diego Trolley has maintained an inviolate principle of no advertising.
No placards pitching sodas or shoes inside the cars, and certainly none to obscure their signature red exteriors.
Until now.
More than 21 years of sponsor-free mass transit is about to end – for four months only – with eye-catching, top-to-bottom vinyl "wraps" seen on some city buses for the past few years.
At $40,000 a pop, up to 10 trolley cars are available as rolling billboards beginning Nov. 1, a period timed to include the holiday shopping season and Super Bowl XXXVII, which will be played Jan. 26 at Qualcomm Stadium.
The Metropolitan Transit Development Board, which operates the trolley, has lined up two clients so far. They will be disclosed after their contracts are signed and returned.
Judy Leitner, MTDB business development manager, said the agency's departure from previous policy was driven by a tight budget and a realization that the Super Bowl represented a golden opportunity.
Leitner said that when the trolley was inaugurated in 1981, "We had a brand new fleet of vehicles that were gorgeous. There had been a lot of thought put into the fact that to build a choice ridership base, a new, clean vehicle was an incredible sell and that advertising might take away from that."
But in 2002, many of the original cars have lost their luster. An unsightly epoxy undercoat now shows through the sides of many of the oldest trolley cars, the result of month after month of washing and waxing.
And therein lies the rationale for allowing larger-than-life commercial images on the San Diego landmark: generating revenue to accelerate a repainting program.
At $40,000 per wrap, each ad will provide enough money to refurbish at least one car. Although the lightly adhesive material used for wraps isn't supposed to damage the vehicles, the oldest cars in the fleet will be used in the program.
Leitner emphasized the ads are not to be seen as a camel's nose under the tent. "It's not even a pilot program because it's nothing that we will continue, it is just a one-time-only program," she said.
Andy Strasberg, president of ACME Marketing, said he contacted more than 270 potential advertisers, both local and national, on behalf of the transit agency.
"The candidates are . . . businesses (that) want to reach out to people in a dramatic fashion that has not traditionally been available," Strasberg said. "You have to find the right business and decision-maker who understands the uniqueness of what the trolley can deliver. . . . It doesn't fall within any of the traditional categories of electronic or print."
The trolley cars offer a 75-foot by 12-foot surface rolling an average of 108 hours a week. The advertising image will appear on both sides of the car, but unlike bus wraps the ads must be designed to fit around trolley windows, which won't be covered.
The trolleys cover 47 miles on two lines, from Mission San Diego de Alcala to San Ysidro and downtown San Diego to Santee. Strasberg's pitch to advertisers promises an estimated 1 million "impressions" every month among the trolley's riders and other urban traffic as the cars whoosh by.
The transit agency won't accept alcohol, tobacco or political advertising. Although the Super Bowl is being used as a marketing hook for the trolley ad campaign. Leitnersaid the transit agency realized most advertisers would want their messages on display for an extended period. The agency settled on four months, Nov. 1 through Feb. 28.
"The cost of producing a wrap is very high and so you want to make sure that the sponsor feels that this investment is worthwhile for them," she said. "It's not a simple thing to do . . . it's like a mural."
In addition to the NFL championship game, expected to draw 120,000 visitors, the four-month window gives advertisers exposure during five San Diego Chargers home games, the Holiday Bowl game and parade, the holiday season and the year-end tourist season.
San Diego Transit earns about $1.2 million a year from advertising on its 320 buses, according to Cliff Telfer, vice president of finance and administration.
Transit agency board members approved the trolley advertising program in June on an 11-3 vote, about the same time the board backed away from a plan to raise bus and trolley fares.
National City councilman R. Mitchel Beauchamp said he opposed the ad program because he thought a modest, cost-of-living fare increase was the right solution to the budget shortfall.
Beauchamp said he also despaired at the thought of tarnishing a San Diego icon.
"We're known worldwide for this symbol and to, quote, 'prostitute' the good will of the image of a red trolley by this is not appropriate," he said. "That was my concern."
I don't know if I would've supported this program. I too have had the pleaseure of riding them on several occasions. My biggest fear is once the advertising wheel starts rolling, what's to stop the board from extending beyond the four months indefinately.
"No placards pitching sodas or shoes inside the cars"
Is that really correct that there are NO car cards at all on the SD Trolley?! I knew from photos that there are no exterior ads, and I can understand *that* position, but IMHO a train or bus with no car cards inside is pretty damn dull. Haven't we all ended up reading the cards at least once out of boredom when on a familiar route (no scenery to look at)?
Haven't we all ended up reading the cards at least once out of boredom when on a familiar route (no scenery to look at)?
What do you think of the scenerey along the San Diego trolley lines? I like the train yard it passes through south of downtown, where you get to see not only LRVs but Coaster commuter and BNSF freight trains parked. I also like the mountain views in Fashion Valley.
Mark
"What do you think of the scenerey along the San Diego trolley lines?"
Never been to SD, definitely want to someday & ride the Trolley, and I'm sure I'd find the scenery impressive.
A lot of visitors to Chicago find the scenery from the Blue Line -- down the middle of the expressway pacing (or often outpacing) traffic, looking into the back yards and windows of houses on the old L portion -- very interesting. I can see why they do. But living here all my life, and having been on the Blue Line more times than I could possibly count, the view out the window rarely interests me now (unless something specific is happening) out of sheer repetition.
That's exactly what I was looking at when I rode the CTA blue line last year. I thought it was pretty neat to whiz by the traffic jams and the airy (by East Coast standards) Chicago houses. But I knwo what you mean. Visitors might find the abandoned factories along the Market-Frankfford line interesting, but I got bored with them after riding it for three years!
Mark
Scenery on the SD Trolley?
Well, as Mark said, it IS nice through Mission Valley. Oh sure, you'll see some commuter and Amtrak trains in the area of the Trolley's yards.
South of there? (On the line to Tijuana)
Lots of JUNK, thanks to the US Navy. Anything they give up on using (landing craft, lots of other machinery), winds up in lots to rot away next to the trolley line. Impounded car storage lots. Weed grown lots. Ancient little factories. The I-5 freeway (that's scenery??) A few new modern factories and warehouses. The backyards of a lot of rundown houses.
The line to Santee is somewhat more scenic, once you get off of Commercial Street which is lined with junkyards and old, small industries. You go around a sweeping curve, thent hrough cemetaries. Then another run-down neighborhood. The neighborhood starts getting better once you get out of Lemon Grove. Then it's winding curves, hilly. Downtown La Mesa around the station is beautiful...as is the rest of the ride to Santee.
Wrapping transit vehicles with advertising is an act of criminal vandalism. After all of the effort to rid buses of graffiti here in Los Angeles, to have management turn around and deface vehicles with a "wrap" is an insult to transit patrons. It is difficult to see out of a wrapped bus. It's also a security issue, since an outside observer can't see inside the bus. The company executives that permit this should have their automobiles covered with advertising wrap.
San Diego Trolley was a class operation. I'm sorry to see this come to pass. "One time"? I don't believe it.
>>> Wrapping transit vehicles with advertising is an act of criminal vandalism <<<
I won't go that far. I like some of the European tram wraps, but I have seen some local bus wraps that camouflage the vehicle and make it blend in with the background so much that it becomes a traffic hazzard. That shouldn't be a problem with the San Diego trolley as long as they do not wrap the lead car.
Tom
I live here in Portland Oregon, and the Tri Met transit system has those damm ad's on all trhe buses and the light rail cars....i think thats the biggest joke seeing all those bilboards in track,i feel sorry for Sna Diegos people.
....do you live in san diego ??
............!
Nope
Stafford Virginia
Use to live in the high desert, and listen to KFI.
>>> Use to live in the high desert, and listen to KFI. <<<
Was that before it turned into KKK-FI?
Tom
From 1984 to 87 I knew it as KFI.
>>> From 1984 to 87 I knew it as KFI <<<
At one time it was my favorite radio station. Then they went to a talk format, and after a change in management to a talk format which plays to rednecks, constantly griping about what "we" are giving to minorities, and when will "they" be satisfied. Rush Limbaugh comes off as their resident liberal.
Tom
This idea has been in the works for about a year now, according to a close friend of mine who is ione of the top managers at SD Trolley Inc.
He said they are basically strapped for cash and the advertising is being looked at to bring a cash influx.
I don't see any problem with it -- look at Portland's MAX fleet. Look at many fleets in Europe. And doesn't Toronto have some subway cars done?
..........! ............it will look like graffitti !!
nasty !!
I don't know if I would've supported this program. I too have had the pleaseure of riding them on several occasions. My biggest fear is once the advertising wheel starts rolling, what's to stop the board from extending beyond the four months indefinately.
I was downtown yesterday at about 7 PM so I took a look at the PATH station site. A few men were standing around but all the heavy equipment was idle.
Work is progressing, but it looks like they are only working a single shift. One would think that the PA could have convinced their insurers and FEMA that the small incrmental expense of a second shift was justified. It's going to take a lot longer with one shift than with two.
Anyone have any information on this topic?
If there is only one shift then it is typical Port Authority. Unless they really have to they would never do somethibng 24/7.
"If there is only one shift then it is typical Port Authority. Unless they really have to they would never do somethibng 24/7."
Do you know if there is any other work going on at the WTC station site that may be a limiting factor? If such is the case, the PA's assigning two shifts or three shifts to this work may not accomplish much besides spending a lot of overtime.
If you know that isn't a factor, I can understand your criticism (though I would like to hear the PA's side).
On the other hand, if you don't know, then may I assume this is just more silly, meaningless PA bashing? But I hope you enjoy yourself, either way.
:0)
"Do you know if there is any other work going on at the WTC station site that may be a limiting factor?"
There was nothing going on yesterday that would have prevented the heavy equipment from doing its thing. I also haven't seen anything in the news that would indicate any ohter projects going on.
One purely speculative explanation I can come up with is that the tunnel work (replacing the flood-damaged signaling system) will be the limiting factor, so there's no point going faster with the station construction.
when the Northridge quake took down FIVE freeway bridges, CalTrans let contracts for 24/7 with early completion bonuses. AND THEY WERE EARNED. As to getting one section of a project done before another, everything finished is something no longer needing to be worked on, d'oh. While I am not advocating rash, dangerously speedy work, I am very appreciative of the TA's restoration of the 1/9.
The TA did a very fine job.
Depends...
Are we talking before or after Thanksgiving dinner?
redbirds indeed....
Moooo
Why don't you go play 'chicken' on the subway tracks?
:)
-Robert King
Just remember to take the Depends off before cooking the rooster. :)
Are we all in a "Foul" mood? ;)
er, don't you mean "fowl" ?
You are correct! I've only had one cup of coffee so far, please forgive me!
lol. I understand. I wouldn't know my own name without a cup of coffee in the morning.
I wouldn't know my own name without a cup of coffee in the morning.
I never can drink enough caffeine to remember mine... why else do you think I'm Anon_e_mouse?
Until next time...
(Who the heck am I anyway?)
chill out he is not alone !
Let's ask Perdue..
"No placards pitching sodas or shoes inside the cars"
Is that really correct that there are NO car cards at all on the SD Trolley?! I knew from photos that there are no exterior ads, and I can understand *that* position, but IMHO a train or bus with no car cards inside is pretty damn dull. Haven't we all ended up reading the cards at least once out of boredom when on a familiar route (no scenery to look at)?
Haven't we all ended up reading the cards at least once out of boredom when on a familiar route (no scenery to look at)?
What do you think of the scenerey along the San Diego trolley lines? I like the train yard it passes through south of downtown, where you get to see not only LRVs but Coaster commuter and BNSF freight trains parked. I also like the mountain views in Fashion Valley.
Mark
"What do you think of the scenerey along the San Diego trolley lines?"
Never been to SD, definitely want to someday & ride the Trolley, and I'm sure I'd find the scenery impressive.
A lot of visitors to Chicago find the scenery from the Blue Line -- down the middle of the expressway pacing (or often outpacing) traffic, looking into the back yards and windows of houses on the old L portion -- very interesting. I can see why they do. But living here all my life, and having been on the Blue Line more times than I could possibly count, the view out the window rarely interests me now (unless something specific is happening) out of sheer repetition.
That's exactly what I was looking at when I rode the CTA blue line last year. I thought it was pretty neat to whiz by the traffic jams and the airy (by East Coast standards) Chicago houses. But I knwo what you mean. Visitors might find the abandoned factories along the Market-Frankfford line interesting, but I got bored with them after riding it for three years!
Mark
Scenery on the SD Trolley?
Well, as Mark said, it IS nice through Mission Valley. Oh sure, you'll see some commuter and Amtrak trains in the area of the Trolley's yards.
South of there? (On the line to Tijuana)
Lots of JUNK, thanks to the US Navy. Anything they give up on using (landing craft, lots of other machinery), winds up in lots to rot away next to the trolley line. Impounded car storage lots. Weed grown lots. Ancient little factories. The I-5 freeway (that's scenery??) A few new modern factories and warehouses. The backyards of a lot of rundown houses.
The line to Santee is somewhat more scenic, once you get off of Commercial Street which is lined with junkyards and old, small industries. You go around a sweeping curve, thent hrough cemetaries. Then another run-down neighborhood. The neighborhood starts getting better once you get out of Lemon Grove. Then it's winding curves, hilly. Downtown La Mesa around the station is beautiful...as is the rest of the ride to Santee.
Do T/O's and C/R's get paid more for working longer lines, like the A or the D pre MannyB flip? Do they get paid a night differential for working the graveyard shift?
B63Mike
If it goes over 8 hours, they get penalty time (usual time&½). Most A and F jobs are about 9 hours. If it's one trip and a half, then it might fit in 8 hours, but they usually squeeze in two whole round trips, often even if there's a put-in.
OPTO is the only thing extra they get paid for, a whopping $2 I think an hour to open and close doors and speak on the PA.
To add to that, employers are indeed required to pay time and a half for over 40 hours per week, for nonexempt employees.
Employers are not required to pay extra for working at night or on weekends. (Unless that is included in a collective bargaining agreement.)
We get a little under a buck and a half an hour for night differential. That's 6pm to 6am M-F and all day Sat/Sun/Hol.
A little OVER a buck and a half.
$1.4953 is under a buck and a half
You on yard rate?
Maybe they just like me more.
That's not yard rate and if they like you more you'll be sorry when they realize their mistake.
Mine is 1.6920/hr - a little over a buck and a half.
Thanks for the back up. Maybe they like me and you better than Zman and Crazy T/O.
Oh NOW you've gone and done it. Wanna tell us what your intervals are so we can come and give you a wedgie? :)
Could the differential maybe be based on a percentage of pay (rather than a fixed dollars per hour)? In that case those with a higher base rate (more seniority?) would get a higher differenctial.
Alex and I are the junior guys and I am not even at top road pay.
We are taking this offline anyway I think.
Seems they are paying B division better.
I am addressing this issue offline. I could not contact you as I do not have an email for you.
I get that $1.49 rate and I have over 21 years as a motorman.
I'm sorry if these seems like a rudimentary question, but I am learning as much as I can about the T/O job position, as I am seriously thinking about it.
What is penalty time?
Any time beyond eight hours.
So, do you lose any pay operating those hours. It appears the term ' penalty time' implicates it.
No, penalty time doesn't mean that you take a hit in the wallet. On the contrary, it means that you have to work forced overtime. Sometimes, penalty time can be as little as 1 minute or as much as 1 hour and 59 minutes not including late clears. Penalty time is always paid at 1 1/2X and the more penalty time a job has, the more senior the job becomes since the forced ot is guaranteed every day.
For example, just about anyone who could pick a job can pick a 2 tripper on the F paying 8 hours a day. But to pick the same 2 tripper plus a put-in/lay-up paying 10 hours and 30 minutes, you'd need 25+ years in title.
That bad?
The penalty CW job at CI needed 28 years to get (unless he got picked out) and that is about the best job for the $ in the system.
"For example, just about anyone who could pick a job can pick a 2 tripper on the F paying 8 hours a day. But to pick the same 2 tripper plus a put-in/lay-up paying 10 hours and 30 minutes, you'd need 25+ years in title."
Which is why some people (not all) would be better off not worrying about picks and shifts, but rather seeing a T/O or C/R job as a stepping stone to a higher level of employment. Someone who, after 20 years at the TA, is in the management ranks takes home a larger income and has a different set of concerns on the job day to day. Money-wise, that's going to reward much more handsomely than waiting for seniority to kick in in the T/O roster.
Now, if driving trains or working on tracks is what you truly like to do, that's a more important consideration. But if you're looking at the money aspect, there are always alternatives, and I've illustrated one of them.
Sometimes that's true, but many times that is not the case.
There are many T/O's who make just as much, or more than a Deputy Superintendent and put in just as much work, or less. And supervision almost always makes more money than low level management.
When a T/O or any supervisor works a 12 hour day, he/she gets paid a total of 14 hours for the day (last 4 hours at 1 1/2X). When a Deputy Superintendent works a 12 hour day, he/she gets paid the standard 8 hours with absolutely no additional compensation. A D/S only gets compensated after working a full 16 hour day, and only gets a personal day added in his/her bank for it.
It's a given with the TA that whenever you take a promotion to either supervision or management, you actually lose money. Doesn't work like that in the private sector.
It's a given with the TA that whenever you take a promotion to either supervision or management, you actually lose money. Doesn't work like that in the private sector.
Come again? Works the same way in the private sector as in government jobs - if you figure it based on hours worked, management makes less. I'd dearly LOVE to work an eight or nine hour day, or at least get paid for the twelve hour days I routinely work, plus all the interruptions of my sleep in the middle of the night because someone on my team is working and needs help. (Some of those interruptions I could eliminate, but five minutes of my time in the middle of the night often means a couple of folks on my team can do several more productive hours of work, so I don't squash them.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is more like a new promotion to mgmt make more than someone that is high up in the lower title. With the collector and pickup before relief this was EXTREME ditto the specials. I have met at least two TOs that topped 100K (about 2-3 years in the past)
I think it may have encouraged many people not to go into supervision by making lots of easy OT for so many years with no headaches and when you go home you can stay home.
Even in the private sector the same deal. Senior tax preparers with established clientele make during the tax season than their boss. I as their boss made more than my district manager if I made my store targets and he did not (man he hated me for that).
"Even in the private sector the same deal. Senior tax preparers with established clientele make during the tax season than their boss. I as their boss made more than my district manager if I made my store targets and he did not (man he hated me for that)."
And what happened in the off-season?
"There are many T/O's who make just as much, or more than a Deputy Superintendent and put in just as much work, or less. And supervision almost always makes more money than low level management."
True, but a low-level manager can rise to a middle or high level manager. And, with additional education obtained in a variety of ways, a manager can move into the private sector more flexibly than someone still in the trenches, because at some point the management skills themselves become more important. You develop skills that are much more transferable.
That's the aspect I'm talking about.
Case in point from another profession: Howard Safir started his career as an entry-level DEA agent; transferred to the Marshalls Service, rose througfh the ranks, and was then appointed Fire Commissioner. From Fire Commissioner he became Police Commissioner. After Police Commissioner he started a consulting firm and now he makes A LOT of money.
Lawrence Reuter or Thomas Savage can move into private industry, if they want, into jobs that a T/O, even with 30 years seniority, cannot. Now, these guys are at the very top, but you don't have to be all the way up there to get some of those bennies.
Part of the magic of Arnine duty 30 years ago on the split was TWO (count 'em) put-ins and two layups PLUS two trips (one each half of the split) ... that was fat city. :)
I was given a lovely gift by the guys up at Branford - got to wake up 1689 all by my lonesome. And I still remembered HOW. Even remembered where the trap door was for the cab side marker lights. Ah, sweet!
Is it possible for the lunch break to be reduced to a half hour or extended to like one and a 1/2 to two hours so that the work day can be 8 or 8 and a 1/2 hours instead of 9 or 10 hours?
Many of us already have 1/2 hour lunch breaks which are already 28 mins because we have to be on our train 2 minutes before leaving time and we often get in late on the trip beofre lunch so that comes off our lunch. When lunch goes down to 18 minutes (since they never give us those two minutes back) we get a no lunch where we get an extra patyment for having a crappy lunch. Even on the work programs where there are breaks after a 15-20 minutes (to cover for late trains and a bathroom break) we are usually on WAA (work as assigned) which means we are availble for jumping ahead for a crew, changing signs, helping a BO train or whatever.
First of all, I'd like to thank all of you who replied in my Change of Status message thread for your responses. I think I needed the suggestion to write a letter to be put to me by someone else before I actually got moving on it.
I began writing the letter by working with the list of my three main points of being a member which had also been recommended by Selkirk and Anon-e-mouse. However, what I'd like to do is cite some specific examples of events or policies etc. of that sort in existance at other museums to prove the point that the operation of vehicles by unqualified members after hours without passengers aboard, is indeed easily possible, proven by the fact that it is regularly done at other museums.
So far, I have the Members' Day event at Branford (BERA), which I've read about here often enough, and the Controller Twister Night at IRM, as mentioned by Frank Hicks, as examples but I'd like to cite three. If anybody can help me find a third example comprable to these, I'd really apprecaiate it since I don't think my argument is strong enough with only two examples.
Thank you very much,
Robert King
Find Sparky's post in the thread about his experience at BSM.
That might be good for your third expample, as what he experienced is the general policy at BSM.
Hint, my posting name is JohnS, use that to search the archives.
My handle is
;| ) Sparky.
Agreed, Baltimore Streetcar Museum is a good example of policy, rather than an event. I think the two specific events and BSM as an example of policy provide a nicely rounded set of three examples of unqualified people operating vehicles at museums without carrying revenue passengers.
In addition to Sparky's experience at BSM, I'd like to add my own here, just for the record. One of my friends, who is a member there, and I were planning on driving down to Baltimore on a Sunday during my (ultimately and unfortunately cancelled) vacation. We were going to operate some streetcars after hours, including 7407 which he is quite interested in but, as I've mentioned before, the trip got cancelled...
I'll use the Baltimore Streetcar Museum as the third example in my letter.
Thanks for the suggestion,
Robert King
Robert,
If your situation improves, by all means visit Baltimore. Besides BSM there's the MTA's Light Rail and Subway, plus DC and the Metro is only 35 miles to the south. (Ignore the current news situation from there, it's not going to last forever.)
BTW, would the friend you mentioned with the "interest" in 7407 happen to have the intials JVE?
No, I've met JVE once and had several emails with him. The friend in question lives in New Jersey and knows someone at BSM with the initials JK, who I've met as well. If you want, feel free to email me about this if it's a matter of importance or concern.
-Robert King
Indeed, on Member's Day at Branford the cars are often full of passengers, all of whom are also members (so we don't have the liability issue we would have if there was any revenue on board). My first experience operating a single-truck hand-brake car (Union 316) was with a full load of passengers... ditto for my first run on a subway car (Lo-V 5466 leading R-9 1689).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
hey guys just letting you know im gonna be at harmon. i will have my Metro North Vest on, so just look around for me altho most of us Metro North Folk will have our vest on. Anyways i should take the 853 express as planned. im going to try to get a cab ride, and since i work for Metro North i will most likely get it. anyways hope to see you all there. maybe i will see you on the train if any of you catch the 853
Just look for someone wearing a #7 Manhattan to Queens Subway Hat.
That will be me. As I said in an earlier post, I'll try my best to get up early enough to get the 853 up there. If not then I'll settle for the 958. I will definitely see you there.
PS Who else is going on this trip?
#1979 3 7 Ave Express
#230 MNRR
I'll be wearing my #1 hat with my wife in a wheelchair due to recovery from a broken knee. See ya 10/19.
Yes brother! I should hopefully see you tommorrow. I will bring the infamous MEGA MOUTH along side me. Aint that all right!?! C'mon and say YEEAAAHHH
WELL IF IT AINT CHARON! Welcome! I will be there tomorrow NO DOUBT...what time I don't know but I WILL BE THERE!
Allllllrighty, my breathren!
Y'all know, the one-and-only Cleanairbus will most certainly be there...full-fledged in my regular everyday outfit...ready for what SHOULD be an interesting day tomorrow...hope it don't rain when I get there...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Harmon in da house!
God, I feel sorry already for that poor Engineer heading up to Croton-Harmon. If I was him and I read this, I'd consider taking a sick day.
I'm going to be wearing a gray Ecko shirt with black pants and sneakers...possibly a blue bandana.
Wrapping transit vehicles with advertising is an act of criminal vandalism. After all of the effort to rid buses of graffiti here in Los Angeles, to have management turn around and deface vehicles with a "wrap" is an insult to transit patrons. It is difficult to see out of a wrapped bus. It's also a security issue, since an outside observer can't see inside the bus. The company executives that permit this should have their automobiles covered with advertising wrap.
San Diego Trolley was a class operation. I'm sorry to see this come to pass. "One time"? I don't believe it.
>>> Wrapping transit vehicles with advertising is an act of criminal vandalism <<<
I won't go that far. I like some of the European tram wraps, but I have seen some local bus wraps that camouflage the vehicle and make it blend in with the background so much that it becomes a traffic hazzard. That shouldn't be a problem with the San Diego trolley as long as they do not wrap the lead car.
Tom
Hello All.
This past weekend I took a trip to Quebec, mostly for a ride on the TTCA (TRAINS TOURISTIQUES DE CHAUDIÈRE-APPALACHES), one of two tourist operations on the Quebec Central. Their website is http://www.iquebec.ifrance.com/beaucerail/ for those who are interested.
The TTCA has an intact ex-LIRR diesel trainset, perhaps 4 coaches and an FA power car, that they pull with a rebuilt geep. They have done an excellent job of spiffing up the coaches (new paint and glazing, and fixed the A/C), but (other than the addition of a restroom), haven't altered the cars any. They still retain their LIRR numbers, interiors, and some graphics (watch the gap diamonds on the platform doors). It was a fun "blast from the past".
If anyone is thinking of a trip north, I would highly recommend a ride, it's a first-class operation. They are seasonal, they run a short regular tourist ride, but frequently offer longer and daylong excursions. The trip I took was from Vallee Jonction to Sherbrooke, it took 10 hours with some lengthy stops for local sightseeing amd lunch.
ALSO if you're in the general area, the AMT in Montreal still runs some of their ex-CP open-window (800-series) coaches on the Dorion/Rigaud line. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is about the only place I can think of in North America where you can still ride open-window coaches over jointed rail, in regular service. Their days are numbered, as the AMT plans to replace them soon. Montreal has 5 commuter rail lines now, well worth a visit.
CONRAD MISEK
Quincy, MA
I'd like to go there to ride it, but am afraid of the language barrier, and certainly won't rent a car and drive there from Montreal. Can one take a day trip from Sherbrooke on that railroad, or is it for Vallee Jonction origination only ?
AMT mixes their ex-CP cars witt their version of the Comet-II's as well.
Beware that taking pictures in either Montreal station is illegal and can get you arrested (considered to be "Industrial Spying").
You don't need to be afraid of the language barrier in Quebec... most people know how to speak English, it's just there are some who don't like to speak English (usually the same ones who want to separate from Canada). These days they are in the minority though, so you shouldn't have a problem.
I just got back from Québec a few days ago. They were among some of the nicest people I have ever met which was a shock to me considering the stigma that has been attached to them by English speakers.
Then again it helped that I speak a bit (maybe half a bit) of French. When I "crashed", the people were more than happy to switch to English for me.
The best was when I went to the VIA Rail clerk in Montréal to purchase a round trip ticket to Québec City. I started to speak French, had problems understanding a question, then she spoke back to me in English. I told her when she was typing that I've been going to school to learn the language. She then spoke in French in an easy tone to me and explained the ticket and where I was to catch the train etc., and I responded as such. Definitely a little boost for me considering that I did struggle a little bit there. I'm not gonna lie, French isn't easy. But I will improve.
For the most part the Francophone Quebecers are very accomodating, especially in areas like Montreal or Quebec City. It is, unfortunately, the minority of Francophones who hate all English and want to separate that give Quebecers as a whole a bad name.
Unfortunately, the government of Quebec tends to side with this minority, especially when the PQ is in power (which they currently are). Hence, anti-English language laws get passed and this is what makes Anglophones hate Quebec so much. It is because of this that I left and will never return (except to visit).
But the politics should not deter anyone from visiting Quebec. It is a great place to visit and the people will understand and help you out if you speak English.
Incidentally, Zman, did you manage to ride the Metro or any other transit while you were in Montreal? What were your thoughts about Montreal transit?
I really liked the Montréal Métro. Very convenient and prompt. But I absolutely loved the humming produced by the AC motors on the MR-73 subway cars when they accelerated (except on the Green line which uses the original MR-63 cars). Sounded like the trains were singing when they took off!
The STM buses were good too, but I only used them sparingly. I did use the STL buses a lot since my hotel for the first few days was in Laval. Not too crazy about those Nova Classic buses though.
Heh... Laval is where I went to high school, I used to use those STL buses all the time. Whereabouts was your hotel in Laval?
That's one thing I always look forward to when visiting Montreal is hearing the singing trains on the Metro. That fascinated me since I was five years old. Incidentally, there is one MR-63 trainset that makes that sound as well, and much louder and more distinct than the MR-73 cars. I don't know why it was modified that way, but it's my favorite trainset in the system just for that reason.
About the Nova Classics, I agree, I don't really like anything that NovaBus produces except the RTS. We have a lot of Classics here in Ottawa, but fortunately we have a lot of everything else too, so whether or not I get one on my way to work is pretty much a roll of the dice. But give me an Orion V over a Classic anyday.
I stayed at the Radisson across from the Terminus Le Carrefour. Very nice hotel, just wish it wasn't so far out of the way.
Lets face it, I got lucky with those STL buses. At night and on weekends, those suckers run once an hour. Fortunately, I had 5 different routes to choose from.
Yeah tell me about it, I rode the STL all the time, but I didn't like them. Once an hour is ridiculous for a city bus travelling in an area like Laval, even if it is a weekend or night!! The only time the frequency drops that low in Ottawa is when it's a neighbourhood circulator with other routes nearby, and only in the late evenings and on Sunday. And even then, in many cases two routes serving the same neighbourhood will work together in tandem, once an hour but alternating so that service is actually every half hour.
Incidentally, you stayed just around the corner from my old high school... my friends and I used to walk to Carrefour during our lunch hour!
So sue me.
Funny you should mention the ex-CP 800 series on the AMT. I happened to get a pic of cars 821 and 817 coupled to engine 1326.
I have no idea on how to post these pics though. Maybe I can e-mail them to someone here, and in turn they can post them here on SubTalk.
I live here in Portland Oregon, and the Tri Met transit system has those damm ad's on all trhe buses and the light rail cars....i think thats the biggest joke seeing all those bilboards in track,i feel sorry for Sna Diegos people.
while passing on the belt saw several irt cars running through the yard.1790/1791 and some others. didnt know they maintained them there.
Welcome to the Board!!
BTW, You're missing half an email address..
They're probably assigned to Corona Yard, who shops their equipment at CI. There have been A LOT of R62A on the #7 lately, and no doubt more are to come.
wayne
Soon enough, there will not be any more WF R-36s on the IRT Corona-Flushing Line. They will join the rest of the "Redbirds" in the sea. As a matter of fact all the low numbered WF R-36s have been "officially" retired.
#3 West End Jeff
There are about 26 lower R36 WF cars left:
9354/5, 9362/3, 9394/5/6/7/8/9, 9422/3, 9432/3/4/5, 9440/1, 9468/9, 9472/3. 9446/7, 9450/1 are sitting in Corona Yard waiting to be sent to Concourse.
22 are left in service. Just rode 9472 on the 7 Express last Friday.
Car is a mess.
Added to that, there are only 10 R36 ML left:
9526/7/8/9, 9534/5/6/7, 9542/3.
To my knowledge, 9534/5 and 9542/3 have been sidelined at Corona.
Get your rides while you can. I've also heard that 8 GE R36's have been sidelined as well. I think I know 4 of them: 9596/7 and 9688/9.
Not sure of the others.
#1706 7 Flushing Local
I was almost correct in saying that all of the low numbered WF R-36s were retired. From what you are saying there aren't very many of them left in service.
#3 West End Jeff
These are former Pelham Yard cars assigned to the #6, now assigned to Corona and the #7. As soon as the #3 gets the R142's from either Livonia, or Lenox, the #7/Corona Yard will get those R62A's retiring the rest of the R36/R33WF cars.
To the Board:
7711-7720 have been seen on the 4.
Now if we could just find 7031-7040 on the 5....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yep-rode 7720 on the 4 yesterday. Sweet ride indeed.
#7720 4 Lexington Ave Express
On the same token, how many sets of announcements does the R142(A) have? Are they (all sets) on all trains regardless of which line they are operating on?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
A while back, somebody asked about interactive subway maps.
This one is pretty good (I've used it) - one of the more redeeming features of the Straphangers' site:
http://www.cmap.nypirg.org/netmaps/Straps/Straphangers.asp
"Last updated 16 Dec. 2001" So someone could possibly try taking the F or Q to Stillwell or the other closed stations. (N is shown as already severed.)
Or the 1 to Brooklyn.
Why is it that in the early 80s, the TA decided to paint many subway cars white? What's the deal?
>>Why is it that in the early 80s, the TA decided to paint many subway cars white? What's the deal?<<
That was done on one World's Fair car as a dare to grafitti artists to see if they could gain access to Corona Yards new secure perimeter featuring taller double chain link fences, razor ribbon wire and guard dogs within the fence area.
The car was painted with a new polyeurethane finish to make grafitti removal easier. The rest of the Flushing fleet was painted white and that spread to the most of the mainline IRT. No "B" division cars were painted white except one R-27/30 that was painted for a movie shoot I was told.
Bill "Newkirk"
Too bad the white didn't work. I was four or five when I saw my first white train on the 2 line. Even then, I was able to figure out that train (and the others) wouldn't stay white for long.
>>Too bad the white didn't work<<
The white paint scheme didn't work because, even without grafitti, it was an absurd color to paint transit rolling stock that gets dirty too fast.
When the Redbird scheme came about, that was a relief. Now NYCT could be take seriously. They can paint buses white, which is the norm today, but on a subway car is a bit too much.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah the Great White Fleet.
It didn't work out, but graffitti had very little to do with that, since the TA also instituted a policy of not letting trains out of the yards with graffitti on them. Day to day dirt and grime were large factors, though.
>>>...except one R-27/30 that was painted for a movie shoot I was told. <<<
Wasn't that the movie about the firefighters brother? TURK 182.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, the cars in that movie were painted silver and blue.
The movie was Beat Street, the last scene before the characters "Ramo" and the villain "Spit" fried to death on the third rail at Hoyt-Schemerhorn Station.
They were painted white to Dare Us Vandals ,But boy did they learn there lesson well KRYLON ultra flat black Looked Great on those white cars ,Also made bubble style look 3d,.See the plan was flawed from the get go Corona yard was the heaviest guarded yard yet they left those preety white trains all alone at 111st middle.When they started doing the main line white they saw the mistake ,If I recall my history correctly,some trains were painted at Westchester Yard pretty hard yard to get into ,But some trains were hit top to bottom full pieces By the time a full ten car consist was done.Those were the wild style years when it was an art not scratches in windows.
Makes me almost miss the Diversity of colors you used to see on the IRT.
around 6 pm I got on a uptown 5 at union sq. It's flourescent lights weren't on except for 6 tubes (3 at each end of car). Sometimes the whole car would flicker on while moving. The incandescent emergency lights never came on even though they were there. Also this redbird had hand turnable rollsigns (no key required). What was going on here with the lights?
All mainline Redbirds up to the R33 have rollsigns that can be turned by hand. Which is why I always see at least a couple of cars in every train signed up for the wrong destinations. I always wondered why they never fixed the Redbird rollsigns to require a key to turn them.
" I always wondered why they never fixed the Redbird rollsigns to require a key to turn them. "
'cause the fish don't care, and they can't read them anyway.
Elias
From Destination Freedm at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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Bombardier Transportation unveils the latest in high-speed rail technology On October 15 in Washington, D.C. at Union Station. Dubbed JetTrain, it is the first 150-mph non-electric locomotive designed for the North American market. JetTrain is powered by a jet engine, rather than the traditional diesel power. The train has been under development for about the last three years, and uses an Acela Express-based body shell. It has been testing at the AAR-FRA test tracks in Pueblo, Colo. until recently.
“The locomotive is powered by a Pratt & Whitney lightweight jet turbine,” Carolyne Leroux, Bombardier’s high-speed rail director, told D:F., “which replaces traditional diesel engines found in current rail equipment. This allows the sleek JetTrain locomotive to be 20 per cent lighter than a conventional diesel unit and produce twice the acceleration.”
She said the JetTrain is designed to comply with Tier II Passenger Equipment Safety Standards established by the FRA. Tier II standards specify minimum safety requirements related to crash energy management, rollover strength, and the ability to withstand compressive forces.
I wonder how much noise the jet engine(s) would generate ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not a whole lot, if isolated properly. Recall that the M-1 battle tank is jet powered. The troops have not had a problem with excess noise. In fact, it's described as rather quiet.
>>In fact, it's described as rather quiet.<<
Do you remember the MTA gas turbine cars, the ones built on M-1 bodies ?
On a 1978 fantrip when outside photographing them, they did sound much like a jet engine, although much quieter. But I wasn't outside when the engines were revving, so it couldn't have sounded like a jet aircraft.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wasn't in NY in 1978, so I have no first-hand knowledge of that.
Is Amtrak's Turbotrain loud?
The M-1 tank is quieter when going full rpms than the diesel-powered M60 it replaced.
It all depends on how well they're insulated. Were the Krauss-Maffei gas turbine locos very loud?
Were the Krauss-Maffei gas turbine locos very loud?
Deafening, I'm told (no first-hand experience), but not a problem for the engine crew because the noise was behind and ducted away from them. Supposedly, on a short (>50 car) train the crew in the caboose heard it more than did the engine crew.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can hear diesel locomotives ten miles away.
Elias
With a good muffler, not much. Chrysler's turbine cars were actually very quiet, but the marketing guys had them bump up the and play with the sound to get more public interest. The ad copy read something like "Listen.... That's the exciting new sound of the Chrysler turbine car!". In any case, a turboshaft moves less air than a turbofan, and the TEL likely has some sort of muffler assembly on it.
Dubbed JetTrain, it is the first 150- mph non-electric locomotive designed for the North American market.
There was United Aircraft's TurboTrain in the late 1960's and early 1970's. It ran between NYC and Boston. I took it once. It felt like I was riding in a DC6.
Any arrangement where the jet engine is hooked up to a gearbox and propeller will sound like a propr plane, Flying a Beech 1000 sounds like a DC-6 too.
Or a gearbox and generator/traction moto
I can just see the design now. Locomotive and jet engine up front, flames through the coaches. :)
Bwahahahaha, I like my Geese FRIED!!!
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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Judging by the figures that have just been released, the new Gunn era at Amtrak, consisting of tight budgets and “putting first things first,” has paid off short-term gains in both funding and credibility.
Amtrak now has $160 million in the bank left over from the fiscal appropriation of Fiscal Year 2002, and is operating on a Congressional continuing resolution providing funding at the rate of $1 billion per year.
Yet a continuing resolution usually implies funding at the approved rate of the previous year, and that approved rate was $521 million, which would be a shutdown budget, according to Amtrak. Where does Amtrak get its current funding?
In an interview with D:F, Amtrak spokeswoman Karina Van Veen broke it down like this:
In addition to the president’s budget figure, “we received an additional appropriation last month. So the continuing resolution was based on our $521 million 2001 appropriation, plus the $205 million appropriation we got at the end of the summer to help us get through the fiscal year, plus 60 percent of the Fiscal Year 2001 that we got in 2002. So 60 percent of the FY 2001 appropriation that we actually received in 2002 was $313 million. When you add those three numbers up, it comes to 1-point-03 billion. That’s the number that Congress is basing the continuing the resolution on.”
“With our cash in the bank, that will work for the time being,” Amtrak CEO David Gunn said in a memo issued to all employees of the railroad, but he added, “Whether Congress and the President will reach agreement right after the elections or early next year is unclear, but I’ll let you know as developments occur.”
Furthermore, there will be no letup in Gunn’s lean-and-mean approach to budgeting. The new fiscal year will still be a tight one, he warns, and he is “counting on everyone to carefully control their budgets.”
Among his new priorities:
Seeking greater state support for train services (with a two year timetable to accomplish this).
Phasing out the (money-losing) express part of the mail and express service, and redirecting the money to wreck repairs.
Fitting everything in a budget.
In fact, “we’re going to have to still do more work to fit everything into” a budget that figures on $3.4 million in cost, offset by $2.2 billion in revenue, “and a needed $1.2 billion from the federal government,” about evenly divided between capital and operating investments.
Whether the last item is a euphemism for more layoffs is not clear, but all of those items were either spelled out or heavily indicated in Gunn’s interview July 31 (August 5 issue) with D:F.
The still relatively new Amtrak boss tells his employees not to believe everything they hear on the Amtrak rumor mill or “everything you read about us out of Washington.”
He said, “Stay focused on your work. Stay safe out there, and deliver the best possible service for our passengers,” is Gunn’s bottom line message.
He also noted the board of directors passed the FY 2003 budget.
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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Legislation eliminating a major obstacle to faster rail travel between Albany and Schenectady is expected to be state law by the end of 2002, but Amtrak isn’t ready to move ahead with the project.
New York state officials want Amtrak to spend $28.7 million to install 18 miles of track paralleling the existing single-track line between the two cities, said Melissa Carlson, spokeswoman for the New York DOT, reports the Albany Business Review of October 4. CSX, however, owns the right-of-way, and the firm, which at one time saw no benefit for its freight operations, changed its mind after oppressive tax laws were changed in New York State.
Amtrak officials “don’t currently have a plan in place to make that happen,” said Amtrak media relations manager Karina Van Veen in Washington.
“What we’ve been told is that due to Amtrak’s funding crisis they have not yet determined if they will be allocating any capital money in 2003 for their share of that project,” said Bruce Becker, president of the Empire State Passenger Assn., a passenger rail advocacy group.
“It’s still possible they will fund it, but that decision has not been made.”
The existing track creates a bottleneck that slows passenger trains heading west or east, and freight trains enroute to or from Selkirk Yard. Trains must stop and wait for other passenger and freight trains to clear the route, Carlson explained. Installing a second track would eliminate the delay and shorten runs from New York City to Buffalo by a half hour, she said.
Since 1993, state officials have wanted to see a second line built to break through this bottleneck.
Under a deal reached between the state and Amtrak, New York agreed to spend $98.5 million to buy seven high-speed trains for the Niagara-to-New York City Empire Service corridor, while Amtrak is to spend a like amount on upgrading the route’s track, including the Schenectady to Albany stretch, Carlson said.
The state has paid for the trains, being built at Super Steel in Schenectady, and test runs along the right-of-way west of Schenectady and south of Rensselaer have been completed, she said.
Until this year, the main obstruction to the second track plan originated at the Jacksonville, Fla., headquarters of CSX Transportation, the railroad which took over Conrail’s New York routes in 1999.
The company owns the Schenectady-Albany right-of-way and didn’t want to play host to the second track. The company objected because it would be taxed for the second track, which wasn’t essential to CSX’s freight operations, explained John Casellini, CSX’s resident vice-president in New York.
The entire line stretches from Boston to Chicago.
A second rail line was viewed as a quadruple negative for CSX: The company would pay higher taxes because of the second line, the company would have to pick up some of the maintenance and operating costs of the 18 miles of track, and competing railroads would be using it as well, Casellini said.
“It’s like somebody saying, ‘We’re going to put a pool in your backyard, and you have to take care of it, and pay taxes on it, and all the neighborhood kids can use it anytime,’ ” Casellini said, but CSX used the state’s desire for faster passenger service between Schenectady and Albany to leverage passage of legislation aimed at changing the way New York’s localities tax railroad property, lowering the company’s New York taxes by about 45 percent. In return for passing the bill, Casellini said, CSX agreed to drop objections to the second line.
The bill was approved by the Assembly and state Senate in June, and is expected to be approved by the governor before the end of the year.
Now it looks like the issue of when, or if, the Albany-Schenectady second track gets built is up to Amtrak, Casellini said. Many people had assumed that passage of the railroad infrastructure bill would remove all the roadblocks.
”What they really need to do is work through the engineering,” Casellini said. “It’s not as simple as going out there and putting down track panels and having a new line out there.”
The right-of-way will have to be physically modified to accommodate a second track, and signal work will have to be done. Building a 110-mph track is not simple, he cautioned. “The margins for error are not great there,” Casellini said.
Sounds like rather than lowering taxes, the state should have kept them high, then used the money to simply buy the line.
Its CSX's property and CSX refused to upgrade the line w/o a tax reduction. The State would have been forced to buy the RoW from CSX pending of course all the Emenent Domain court appeals.
And the STATE had put aside money to build the track, but Joe Bruno redirected the funds to build himself a baseball stadium. Gotta love it, they're BACK to shake down Amtrak AGAIN. :(
Did not the line used to be double tracked?
It *should* be TRIPPLE tracked.
Two for passenger service, and one for CSX.
What is with this need for AMTK (of federal) money:
The State of New York should pay for its two tracks,
and then hire either AMTK or the MTA to run trains on it for them.
Elias
CSX only uses the line for local freight movements, it only needs to be double tracked. The main CSX freight line (Selkirk Branch) bypasses Albany and rejoins the passenger line at CP-168. The Chicago Line from CP-168 to LAB was at least in Conrail Times owned by Amtrak or NY State.
The correct planL
Build the second track and any sidings necessary exclusively for te benefit of the firm putting up the cash (ATK), insist it be dispatched by ATK for ATK's convenience. If Snow doesn't like it EPD the whole route. If it is so unimportant to the geniuses from Jacksonville, let them be the tenants. (disclosure I am a CSX stockholder--but that does not make the company's behavior any less despicable)
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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Amtrak’s operating department has been restructured “into a more traditional railroad configuration to promote accountability and streamline decision-making,” the carrier said last week. It follows closely the outline CEO David Gunn explained shortly after taking over the job in May.
The new structure “puts individuals in positions where they can use their specialized knowledge and skills to be effective managers and provide the highest quality leadership,” Gunn said. The ideas were approved by Amtrak’s directors earlier this summer, and become effective October 1.
Gunn explained the new organizational structure “will clearly assign authority and responsibility for various aspects of our business. We are currently moving from a Product Line structure to a regional and divisional organization.”
The reorganization required realigning territories, job functions, personnel and the scope of authorities affecting thousands of employees. The three former Strategic Business Units were consolidated into the Western and Eastern Regions.
The Western Region is composed of three divisions – the Pacific, Southwest, and Central Divisions. The Eastern Region is composed of four divisions – the Southern, Mid-Atlantic, New York, and New England Divisions.
“The intent of all of these changes is to ensure consistent train operations and financial accountability,” Gunn said.
The restructured corporation consists of four major departments – operations, mechanical, engineering and system security and safety.
Vice President Ed Walker, who replaced Stan Bagley, will supervise operations and be responsible for train movements, on-board services, terminal service, mail, and express.
Chief Mechanical Officer Jonathan Klein is responsible for locomotive and car fleets, equipment engineering, standards and compliance, as well as backshops and the high-speed rail equipment maintenance contract.
Chief Engineer David Hughes is responsible for right-of-way and signal system maintenance, as well as capital projects involving bridges and structures, electric traction, track and signals.
System Security & Safety Chief Ron Frazier, provides police protection and the safety of the railroad, employees and travelers.
Gunn said the senior staff will also direct four major program areas, environmental, operations planning, business management and budget, and business improvements.
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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High-speed trains may be coming to Joliet, Ill., on the Canadian National (former Illinois Central) line between Chicago and St. Louis. For now, there is a great deal of discussion among residents, both for and against.
Using multimillion-dollar high-tech passenger cars that can move at speeds up to 110 mph, the trains would make the trip from Chicago to Joliet’s Union Station a 30-minute ride. Another two hours and the railroad cars would be in St. Louis.
The assurance of rapid and reliable service accounts for much of the idea’s appeal, proponents like Lockport’s Bill Molony say. Presently there are three daily trains going from Chicago to St. Louis and back, at five-and-a-half hours per one-way trip. A high-speed rail would bring the number of trains passing through Joliet to about 16 to 18.
Along with the expanded travel opportunity would come are rejuvenation of the blighted neighborhood surrounding the majestic rail station in downtown Joliet, backers of the plan say, Suburban Chicago News (Sun newspapers) reported last week
To some, it’s a boon to regional transit, a conduit from Chicago to St. Louis that could open the corridor to daily commuting traffic and alleviate the burden on area roads and skies – not to mention revitalizing downtown Joliet. To others, it’s a nuisance, a hazard, a menace to fragile old buildings and a threat to domestic tranquility.
“There used to be hotels around this place,” Molony said, gesturing toward the massive windows of the station, where the Midwest High-Speed Rail Coalition, a group trying to coordinate funding to make the rail a reality, held its fall conference last month. “People used to come here. We could have that again.”
During the 1920s, four tracks were running through the city and 120 trains a day passed over them, Molony said. Today there is one track, and it supports eight daily train runs.
Despite the expected benefits to the city and business travelers looking for alternatives to flying and driving, the rail line has its opponents. Some municipal officials are strongly supportive, but others have concerns about the plans. The prospect of the trains hasn’t been discussed publicly in Lockport City Council meetings recently, but Mayor Frank Mitchell hasn’t changed his opinion on the matter.
“I think the city’s position has always been that we are supportive of the high-speed rail concept, but we certainly don’t want it on the lines going right through the downtown area of the city,” Mitchell said.
City officials have asked the Illinois DOT to investigate the possibility of running the line along the Union Pacific or Burlington Northern Santa Fe rails now used by freight trains, which are west of the Illinois and Michigan Canal. Relocating the route there would be better, they say, than having it travel over the CN tracks that Metra commuter trains use through Lockport and Lemont.
Coalition Executive Director Rick Harnish has doubts about the feasibility of funding a reroute, which would require construction of a third track.
“It’s all about money, and if you want it to be moved you’ve got to come up with the money,” Harnish said.
He and other high-speed rail supporters, who said IDOT ruled the change of tracks unfeasible, contend much of the concern over the rail’s impact on communities is unfounded. Owners of some historic buildings near the railroad tracks object to the vibration caused by rail traffic, but high-speed train supporters say the new trains wouldn’t worsen the problem.
“Years ago it was clank and bang over the old-style rail joints. Now it’s all welded rail,” Molony said. A freight train at 45 mph has a lot more vibration than a passenger train at 75 mph.”
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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Three rail carriers, two with foreign ties and none of them being Amtrak, made their pitch on Friday (October 11) to run the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority commuter rail operation, the fourth largest commuter rail network in the nation, the Boston Globe reported on Sunday. The winning firm will be disclosed in December after a thorough review of the proposals, MBTA officials said.
Amtrak CEO David Gunn said flatly more than a month ago Amtrak would not rebid because its terms are too financially risky. The carrier has run the lines under contract with the T since 1986.
The T contract paid $180 million annually for Amtrak to operate the line. Although T officials said they cannot reveal the current bids, Mulhern estimated the new deal has the potential to bring in $1 billion over the five-year contract.
Battling for the right to move Boston commuters are some of the giants of the rail industry:
British rail giant Stagecoach Group has joined with Herzog Transit Services of St. Joseph, Mo., to form Bay State Transit Services Inc.
Stagecoach runs Britain’s largest rail system, South West Trains, encompassing 1,690 trains daily that serve 217 stations and employ 4,500 people, Stagecoach said. The line is based out of London’s Waterloo station. Since taking over the service in 1996, the Scotland group boasts that it has added more than 12,000 seats and increased train runs.
Herzog Transit Services has been here before, and many are surprised it’s back.
In an attempt to slash what was called a bloated Amtrak maintenance payroll, Massachusetts transportation officials in 1999 bid out the commuter rail’s maintenance contract to Herzog and its partner at the time, Boise Locomotive.
The joint venture underbid Amtrak by some $116 million. Soon thereafter, Herzog officials asked that all Amtrak maintenance employees reapply for their jobs, which were to be cut from 550 to 400. A furious political battle followed. Unions called on local politicians, including the late Rep. J. Joseph Moakley (D), to intervene. The politicians then cited federal labor-protection regulations to keep Amtrak workers from being fired.
Eventually, after federal agencies threatened to withhold $200 million in grants to the T unless it accepted Amtrak’s bid, the T did, extending Amtrak’s contract for three years. Herzog lost. The firm later filed a federal antitrust suit in Washington, D.C., against both Amtrak and the unions. That suit is still active.
France’s CGEA Connex, the parent company of Connex North America Inc., is the largest private passenger transportation company in Europe. It operates 25 passenger rail systems worldwide, 10 of them being commuter rail systems.
Connex is the major shareholder in the new partnership. It is owned by Paris-based Vivendi International, which is in turn owned by Vivendi Universal, the multinational powerhouse that owns Universal Pictures and other entertainment businesses.
In 2000, Connex lost its contract to run a segment of British rail after just four years of a seven-year contract. The British rail authority accused the firm of poor on-time reliability and of using old trains on the southern England line.
In one case, a train was canceled after an infestation of fleas attacked the engineer, according to a report by the British Broadcasting Corporation.
Connex, which was Britain’s first rail company to be stripped of its franchise, is partnered with Canada’s Bombardier of North America, the firm responsible for building Amtrak’s high-speed Acela Express trains.
The third partner in the group is Alternative Concepts Inc., a Boston-based transportation and management consulting firm whose principal is James F. O’Leary, the former T general manager who, it so happens, engineered the transfer of the commuter rail contract from the former Boston & Maine Railroad (now Guilford, another bidder) to Amtrak in 1987.
Jane F. Daly and Richard M. Brown are the other ACI principals with MBTA ties. Daly served as deputy general manager from 1981 to 1989, the same time Brown served as treasurer. Jack Leary, another former T executive, was serving as managing director.
The firm is already attempting to make inroads with local labor, having hired Kevin Lydon, the former head of Amtrak’s commuter rail operations in Boston who was fired by Amtrak for refusing to make job cuts. Lydon is well liked by local rail unions.
Although Leary said the firm was formed exclusively to serve the MBTA contract, its members are aware that a good job here could position the firm for rapid expansion.
“But in all honesty, I think that’s down the road,” Leary said. “But yes, if you’re successful here, so goes Boston, so goes the rest of the country.”
Guilford Rail Systems of North Billerica has been down this path before, having given up the MBTA commuter rail in 1986 after severe labor disputes and complaints by state transportation officials of poor service.
Guilford, a privately held corporation, is the only pure American company bidding on the contract. It operates freight lines in every New England state except Rhode Island, and bought the former Boston & Maine Railroad in 1983. It is owned by Portsmouth, N.H.-based Guilford Transportation Industries. Its main stockholder is Timothy Mellon, of Pittsburgh’s Mellon banking family.
Guilford made news in 1997 when it offered to buy or lease Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor service for an undisclosed price. At the time, an Amtrak spokesman said, they were not taking the offer seriously.
'Beware"?
Looks like the MBTA's shopping for the best provider, insteasd of taking the overpriced, poor performing Amtrak contractor hook line and sinker. If Amtrak was actually competitive here, and delivered a decent service, they wouldn't have lost the contract in the first place. Apparently, the MBTA feels they can get more for less elsewhere, and I see no reason why they shouldn't be getting the most from taxpayer's and rider's money.
From what I have heard about Connex, Boston would be glad to have Amtrak back.
So what?
Let the MBTA select a winning bid, if it doesn't work, they can ditch them and put it out to bid again.
Face it Mike, you're just pissed cause the MBTA's dumping Amtrak.
You've got the story all wrong. Amtrak has refused to bid on the new contract. They're just walking away from it.
So Amtrak walked away from the T contract? Has the MBTA ever operated or considered directly operating the commuter trains like Metro-North, LIRR, NJT and SEPTA do?
Okay, chew on this. Current law mandates laid off ATK unionized employees get a FIVE year severance pay period. WITHOUT taking a position on the meriys, I suspect walking away from MBTA is a way of forcing a showdown on this issue without threatening a national shutdown. Just my hunch.
Phil, you know nothing of the BOS situation.
This content probably isn't suitable for discussion on a public forum, but it suffices to say that labor up here is very strong and if you think you can do better than the current contract, dream on.
As much as Connex sucks ass, Connex isn't the problem here. As the DF newsletter alluded, the earlier bidding for the maintenance contract was not just a can of worms, but a can of horseshit. If the contract is anywhere near workable, I'd have personally bid on it. I'd love to be a commuter operator. And I'm not badly capitalized compared to Guilford.
Take a look at your own argument there. If you think long-term contract management is as simple as getting the lowest price and pulling the contract if the service isn't satisfactory, I suggest you go and take a few classes in monopoly regulation.
As for Amtrak losing the contract -- I think it was quite clear from factual evidence that Amtrak chose not to renew the contract. I can go on the record and say that I have seen some of the terms of the contract and it makes me run 200 miles all the way to Penn. I only need to mention a word or two: liability insurance.
A factual correction for DF:
British Rail giant Stagecoach Group has joined with Herzog Transit Services of St. Joseph, Mo., to form Bay State Transit Services Inc.
Stagecoach Group has nothing to do with British Rail. Stagecoach was primarily a bus operator which now holds a number of rail concessions. They are one of the better performers, from what I know.
AEM7
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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A full 83 percent of Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority commuter trains left stations without the required number of conductors for at least 32 weeks last year, causing major problems with fare collections and contributing to nine consecutive months of declining fare revenues for the T, according to reports produced by Amtrak, which runs the MBTA’s commuter rail operation.
The Boston Globe reported on October 8 these unfilled or “blanked jobs” are so pervasive that for 14 of those 32 weeks last year, excluding holidays, nearly all MBTA commuter train runs were understaffed, according to the reports by Amtrak, which operates the local commuter lines under a $150 million contract that expires next summer.
In addition, the T said last week, from late May to late June 2000 – and during nearly all of July that year – 71 percent of T commuter trains ran at least one conductor short.
When T officials found that out about a year later, the transit agency withheld $45,820 from Amtrak, the reports said. Authorities don’t know the amounts of fares that went uncollected during that time.
The problem has been documented for the past three years, according to the MBTA. In April 2001, T director of rail operations Anna M. Barry told Amtrak she was concerned that a total of 912 jobs on trains had gone unstaffed from July 2000 to January 2001.
Amtrak officials never said a word and continued to bill the T for the empty jobs, which the T paid.
After discovering that Amtrak had not filled the jobs, Barry ordered the T to withhold $312,816 from its next payment to Amtrak, one of the largest penalties it has issued. Amtrak officials said they had no explanation for the problem.
”It is pretty well known that a level of staffing for the contract had been established, but why these positions were unfilled is a question,” said Amtrak spokesman Bill Schulz in Washington.
“Inadequate train staffing resulting in uncollected fares is unacceptable. In the end, it’s Amtrak’s money, too.”
The blank job figures raised troubling questions about the T’s commuter rail service, which has recently come under fire for lax fare collection and a series of operational lapses, including a passenger who had a heart attack on a train that did not stop for the emergency. He later died.
The fare collection problem has led T officials to station “spies” on commuter trains to see if conductors were collecting all tickets and fares.
MBTA officials were expected to receive bids last week from at least three private competitors who want to take over the commuter rail operations contract from Amtrak when the contract expires. New provisions in the contract include financial incentives to collect full fares and a penalty of $500 for each position not adequately staffed. The new contract also calls for a crew-to-passenger ratio of 1 to 300, said T spokesman Joe Pesaturo.
Should T officials find that a trip is not adequately staffed, it can penalize the new carrier $10,000.
Amtrak CEO David Gunn has said the national rail carrier, which has run the MBTA commuter line - one of its most lucrative operations - since it began, won’t bid on the new contract. Gunn said the MBTA’s new terms would place too many restrictions on the debt-ridden national rail carrier.
Officials say trains end up understaffed for a variety of reasons – sick calls, classes, or hours-of-service rules. Amtrak officials are finding it cheaper to let the trains run understaffed than pay overtime to staff them, T officials said.
During peak runs, MBTA commuter trains are supposed to operate with a conductor and two assistant conductors to handle ticketing and direct the loading and unloading of passengers. On the popular Attleboro line, which operates from Boston to Providence on the Northeast Corridor, the trains typically run with a conductor and three assistants.
Off-peak runs usually use one conductor and one assistant conductor, said Steve Jones, the T’s commuter rail director.
Passengers have complained for years about buying expensive monthly passes only to have no one check them on the train. At the same time, other passengers have gotten free rides by squeezing out as many as 20 round trips from a cheaper, 12-ride ticket, courtesy of inattentive conductors.
A Boston-based conductor, not in commuter service, noted that it is not all so black-and-white. The conductor told D:F, “I have been in the Commuter Rail (Amtrak) trainmaster’s office and see the stack of ‘Uncollected Fare Reports’ sitting on the desk waiting to be delivered to the MBTA Commuter Rail Management at 10 Park Square in Boston. These are reports that each member of the train crew fills out when they ‘don’t meet’ each other collecting fares between stations.”
He explained, “The report shows the estimated number of uncollected fares between each station stop. Those geniuses at the MBTA then decide if it is practical to add another assistant conductor to the train or just let the fare evasion continue. The T has known all along that there are never enough assistant conductors on their trains to collect all the fares.”
Commuters are not getting a good deal, either, he observed.
“There aren’t enough cars to carry the commuters. It is literally sardines the closer you get to Boston each weekday morning – especially when you have 3-and-2 seating and a skinny aisle in which to walk (stand in, or squeeze around.” A narrow center aisle has rows of three seats on the left, and two on the right. He said the double-decker cars have similar problems.
“Same thing, just twice as full with the same single trainman between stops.
“It is the MBTA management who decides to start up a new assistant conductor class, not Amtrak, so if the T doesn’t want to staff the trains with more employees, they have no one to blame but themselves.
“I predict you will see more fireworks about this issue from Mr. Gunn’s office in the next week or so.”
He again faulted MBTA management.
“MBTA management will always try to get the cheapest way out. Several years ago they tried an experiment on the Framingham and Lowell lines – charge double the fare inbound in the morning, and no charge on the outbound trains in the evening – using just a conductor and his assistant – who make sure the traps are closed and doors are shut before leaving the station.”
Not a good idea, he said.
“Yeah, that sounds logical when sitting behind a desk at 10 Park Square. Once the public found out how to beat the system, some started to park their cars at the rail station parking lot in the morning, then carpool in to Boston. In the evening, they would take the train – any train – home in the evening for free, thus creating unsafe overcrowding conditions on the outbound trains. The T management thought they could use less trainmen at night because no fare would have to be collected.
“Not”.
“The experiment was canceled after three weeks. When there is a way for New Englanders to beat the system, they will.”
What a lovely 19th century problem.
Ste one--fare collection ony inspectors --no FRA responsibilities not a UTU/TWU position.
Step 2 as soon as practical line by line 'smart card readers for the tix on the platforms/or cars. No fare inspectors.
Conductors handle traps, steps, safety. NOT tickets.
Enter current era
....do you live in san diego ??
............!
Nope
Stafford Virginia
Use to live in the high desert, and listen to KFI.
>>> Use to live in the high desert, and listen to KFI. <<<
Was that before it turned into KKK-FI?
Tom
From 1984 to 87 I knew it as KFI.
>>> From 1984 to 87 I knew it as KFI <<<
At one time it was my favorite radio station. Then they went to a talk format, and after a change in management to a talk format which plays to rednecks, constantly griping about what "we" are giving to minorities, and when will "they" be satisfied. Rush Limbaugh comes off as their resident liberal.
Tom
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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New Jersey lawmakers will seek more than $500 million in federal funding for transportation projects and improvements needed in the wake of last year’s terrorist attacks.
U.S. Sen. Jon Corzine said the state’s Congressional delegation formally made the request in a letter to Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) director Joe Allbaugh. The funding would come from the $4.55 billion that the government has set aside for such improvements in the New York metropolitan area.
The state wants at least $250 million for double-decker passenger trains for New Jersey Transit, $200 million for engineering studies for a new Midtown rail tunnel, $50 million for park-and-ride facilities and a portion of the $125 million needed to upgrade a Hoboken ferry terminal.
“We have to be ever vigilant that the $4.55 billion doesn’t only go to New York projects,” Corzine told The Star-Ledger of Newark, adding that those who will decide where the money goes “don’t really reflect New Jersey’s interests.”
FEMA officials have said the $4.55 billion does not have to be used solely to rebuild destroyed transportation facilities, such as the PATH station beneath the former World Trade Center, but could also be used for infrastructure improvements in Lower Manhattan.
Meanwhile, New York Sen. Charles Schumer has questioned whether it was appropriate to finance some projects, including the Hoboken ferry terminal, with FEMA money.
A FEMA spokesman declined to comment at length on the New Jersey request, saying only that Allbaugh will review the letter and then respond directly to Corzine.
From Destination Freedom at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10142002.shtml
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Technical and financial glitches have again delayed the much-anticipated debut of the nation’s first magnetic levitation train at Old Dominion University, pushing the likely launch date into next year.
The opening, originally set for early September, had been postponed twice before – first to the end of that month and then to November 15.
Officials are not committing to a new date, according to The Virginian-Pilot of October 10.
“We’re disappointed… but these are not fatal issues,” said Tony Morris, president of American Maglev Technology Inc. in Marietta, Ga.
“We have a really great team and an overwhelming desire to get it right.” American Maglev and its partners, Lockheed Martin and Dominion Virginia Power, have done what skeptics didn’t think was possible. They built an elevated guideway at ODU and developed a working maglev vehicle in just 18 months. Officials say the project is 90 percent complete. The bullet-nosed vehicle levitates, hovering about a half-inch above the rail using magnets, and moves down the track.
The ride is bumpy, and engineers need more time and money to fix the problem.
“We believe we have a way to smooth out the deviations,” said Thomas V. Radovich, who coordinates the project for Lockheed Martin in Orlando, Fla.
He said the train is reacting differently to the elevated guideway at ODU than it did on the ground at American Maglev’s Florida test track. Lockheed Martin engineers are working to tweak the train’s control system to adapt to the ODU guideway.
At worst, Radovich said, the guideway would need to be stiffened.
Because the project’s limited resources are focused on making the train run smoothly, construction has been suspended on the three platform stations along the route that stretches two-thirds of a mile through the center of campus. The safety certification process, which includes 160 separate tests, is also on hold.
“This isn’t our first setback and probably won’t be the last,” Morris said. “It’s the nature of birthing new technology.”
Because no one has built a full-scale maglev system in this country before, American Maglev has encountered a few surprises along the way. “There’s been some interesting little twists, and some of us are hurting a little bit now,” Morris said.
Because of the setbacks, the project is nearly out of money. A $7 million loan from the state and $7 million in private investment are mostly spent. Lockheed Martin has committed to investing more money, however, and ODU and American Maglev are optimistic they’ll get a federal appropriation of up to $2 million. The Senate’s proposed budget allocates $2 million to the project, while the House version does not list specific projects. The two chambers must still meet and work out their differences on the entire transportation spending bill, which is already late.
Morris said additional private investors are also being sought. Until the money issues are resolved, the train is pretty much stalled.
“At this point, we’re keeping everything at a minimum at ODU while we watch what goes on in Washington,” Morris said. “We’re staying focused on our technology and our efforts in D.C.”
So people who own homes will be screwed by garbage fees ,people whotake mass transit will pay more,Property taxes are gonna rise,cigarrettes cost more than crack and heroin.Its seems to me that Bloomy wants to be remembered as the mayor who made everyone leave.
So when not if When they impose a 2 dollar fare do you think people will stop taking busses and subways?For example If you live in Brooklyn and you usually take R train for an hour crawl to Manhattan now that costs 4$ for 2 hours roundtrip,or for 3.50 you can drive and get there in half the time if traffic cooperates.Also read that if taxes and other fees do rise NYC can lose up to 1 million people .
How will that hurt subway and bus ridership? If ridership goes down will they raise it to 2.50?just to keep the income level. I am just waiting for Bloomy to bring up an air tax .
I have a better idea. Let's just reduce the hourly wage for each NYC, Bd of Ed, HHS, and MTA employee by 10%.
You know, this is one of those things I'm getting tired of hearing from the public.
You always hear from people in the private sector 'My boss didn't give me a raise', or a bonus.
As a C/R, my paycheck just about pays my bills, and it is just about FORBIDDEN by the TA (as in the NYPD and I'm pretty sure the FDNY) to work a second job (they allow it, but it has to meet their approval, which in most cases, doesn't).
But those who make more than me, and have an easier time making a living scream for my pay to be cut. Not that I'm saying that everyone else doesn't deserve what they get paid, but c'mon, we need to make a living too.
Apartments run in the city from $800 to $1200 for a single bedroom apt. To me that is more that one paycheck. And having less than 1 paycheck for all my other bills and such make it hard.
City employees deserve to be able to live comfortably too, you know.
There won't be any $2.00 fare, as far as the next increase goes.
In the past, whenever a fare increase is threatened and the public goes nuts, they always seem to settle about 25 cents lower than the first porposed fare increase.
I think it will go to $1.75 to calm the riding public. If it does go to $2.00, then I will be shocked. Also kiss the token goodbye and a Funpass will rise to $5.00 for a start.
Bill "Newkirk"
and the 10 ride discount to 1.50 or 1.60?
>>and the 10 ride discount to 1.50 or 1.60?<<
Hmmm....maybe so. The MTA bean counters will think of something.
Bill "Newkirk"
$2 a fare for a system that is really undersized, has crappy stations like Smith-9 Sts and 2 Av, a overbloated line like the Lex Av line that is near suffocation, bad service (especially the N/R aka "never and rarely"), lost express services, its disgusting that they even thought of a fare hike.
Mayor Bloomberg gave teachers a whopping 22% increase over 2 years during hard times in the city. He's part of the blame. Anyway getting back on this topic;
They could start by:
1.Cutting paychecks of execs at the MTA.
2.Reinstating the commuter tax.
"I think it will go to $1.75 to calm the riding public. If it does go to $2.00, then I will be shocked. Also kiss the token goodbye and a Funpass will rise to $5.00 for a start."
The token is going to be gone regardless, fare hike or not but it would definitely speed the process.
Express buses: Would go back to $4
Fun Pass: You're right it would go to $5
7 Day: Would rise to $20, possibly $25!!
30 Day: Would rise to at least $70
30 Day Express plus: Probably...OMG would rise to $150 at least
I think there shouldn't be any City workers making enough to afford luxury cars. Before the working man suffers, the rich should sacrifice some of their luxury.
I think there shouldn't be any City workers making enough to afford luxury cars.
And I don't think lazy people who are living at the working man's expense should be given enough to afford computers or transportation of any kind - if they're too lazy to work, let 'em walk. And they CERTAINLY shouldn't have enough discretionary income to railfan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I fully expect a $2.00 fare. What might happen is that the fare might be $2.00 for the subway or a subway-bus combo but may remain $1.50 for the bus. Or the fare might be increased to $2.00 at rush hour but be retained at $1.50 off peak.
One thing is for certain, the MTA has a $600 million gap to close, and city and state funds are going to be taken away. Make that a $1.2 billion gap. A 33 percent increase will earn about $600 million if ridership doesn't go down. Add in toll increases, commuter rail increases (maybe) and service cuts, and the books might balance. A $2.00 fare is the least of what might happen.
The fare will be a minimum of $1.90 (yes, we have gone off of uneven intervals-remember $1.15?). If Bloomberg pulls money out of transit, expect privatization of the entire express bus system in 2-3 years.
>>> we have gone off of uneven intervals <<<
What do you mean by "uneven intervals"?
Tom
Usually, transit agencies PREFER fares on the quarter so less change is necessary, particularly on buses. In a compromise situation, the MTA may go out of this pattern again, with a fare of $1.85 or $1.90.
Hey look, I'm not in love with Bloomberg by a long shot, but let us not forget that he inherited this mess from, *SAINT RUDY*. Funny that no one ever mentions this.
Peace,
ANDEE
we could also realize that this isn't a mess, and it's just postpoing the inevitable. The fact that the subway is STILL only a buck fifty is a miracle.
If anything, I think the next fare increase will deemphasize further the "nominal base fare" of $1.50 or $1.75 or $2.00. If the base fare goes to $2.00 (33% increase) the effective fare will be much lower than that because of "One City One Fare" and Metrocard. Now if they eliminated the OCOF or monthlies or raised the MetroCards by 33%, I'll be very surprised. I expect this will almost completely kill off tokens.
I doubt they'll kill off tokens directly, maybe they'll just add incentives for people to stop using tokens. For example, maybe they'll charge an extra $0.10 surcharge per token. Too many people still use tokens for it to be killed off, in my opinion.
Simple: stop selling tokens, but continue accepting them for a time (6 months, a year, whatever) and advertise how long they will continue to be accepted so people can use their stashes if they wish. Most MetroCard sales are for small amounts, anyway ($15 or less -- the $4 Fun Pass does VERY well), so operating this way wouldn't inconvenience THAT many people.
David
Is there a difference between token use on the buses vs the subway?
There is a limit on the number of coins the MVM takes. A fare hike will bring all the pests back to the booth.
I've heard this before and I'm skeptical. I've inserted $5.00 in quarters along with a $10 bill into an MVM, and have had no problem doing so. Successful purchase of a $15 PPR card.
I think 25 coins total is the limit.
I cannot imagine that there is any limit beyond what the coin cylinders will hold.
>>> I cannot imagine that there is any limit beyond what the coin cylinders will hold <<<
Possibly the limit for one transaction is how many coins can be returned if the transaction is aborted. Coins for change are usually distributed into holders according to denomination, and when a holder is full, the overflow goes into the vault. Since there could be slugs in the coins fed into the machine, the same coins fed in should be returned if the transaction is aborted to keep from buying expensive washers.
Tom
But if the same coins fed are returned, then still the limit should only be how many of those coins can fit, or am I misunderstanding you?
>>> the limit should only be how many of those coins can fit <<<
We are in complete agreement if what you called "coin cylinders" is the place for returning the coins rather than where the coins for making change are stored.
Tom
OK despite being a railfan you might be a fairly normal person.
The thought may never occurred to you to not take your nickels to the bank but to take your jar to the MVM and buy your weekly ticket that way. I used to do that with soda machines when it was .65 but as they return lots of change there was little harm. One or two people doing this can but the machine out of commission much faster just by having a full coin bank
I don't have information on that. If I find out, I'll report the information here.
David
As promised:
It fluctuates a little from month to month, I'm told, but for the sample month I was given (from this year) tokens represented about 14% of subway fares and about 4% of bus fares. BTW, about 1 in 5 bus riders pays cash.
David
Yes, you are right. It was "*Saint Rudy*", as you call him and "Paturkey" who started this whole mess, starting with the layoffs of TA workers in '95 or '96 and the increase to $1.50 from 1.25 back in '95.
Most of these politicians only care about themselves anyway. I'm not praising Mayor "Gloomberg" myself but is started with with the foolish decisions by "Paturkey" and "Moody Rudy", by cutting station cleaners, which you see why stations are more dirty, cutting token booth clerks which led to reduced hours and security at subway entrances/exits.
cutting station cleaners, which you see why stations are more dirty, cutting token booth clerks which led to reduced hours and security at subway entrances/exits.
At the time these things were cut the city was in dire financial straits, although not as much as now. It would have been worse had those cuts not taken place.
Anyway, we don't have a reliable and fast automatic cleaning machine yet, but we do have an reliable and fast automatic Metrocard Vending Machine.
We can save a lot of money by cutting MORE carbon-based MVMs, all without reducing security and operating hours (tell me how the hermetically sealed Carbon-based MVM provides any more security than a video camera?).
Before the last mayoral election I didn't think it was obvious what Bloomy would be like. I thought maybe he would be Lindsay without the charm, but now I'm think he's Wagner without the skills.
Wagner instituted (or least made a high art) the modern City practice of nickel-and-dime (not to mention hefty) taxes. Doing business in the City was always hell for the variety of tax forms even the smallest business had to file and the other taxes, fines and fees on everyone and everything.
One of the issues before Wagner decided not to run in 1965 was that he commissioned an internal study to find out what new taxes he could possibly impose and the answer came back essentially "none." Just about everything that could be taxed was taxed. Maybe Bloomy can think of something new--I know! People who listen to financial shows on radio and TV do it make money. They must be evil. Let's tax people who listen to Bloomberg Radio or watch Bloomberg TV!
Bloomberg TV is blocked on my cable box. And has been since before the election.
Well that is my concern. Granted, the cost of the fare on the subways and buses has not gone up in years, so a 25 cent increase would make more sense. The cost of everything does rise, but it is best to do things gradually. The fare will go to $2, I just think it should be gradually phased in, instead of hitting people with an extra 50 cents.
No, people will not stop riding buses and subways with the $2 fare, but perhaps people will be taking less trips, because it will cost more. This could hurt businesses.
Driving will cost way more than $3.50, when you include gas and parking fees, and of course the agrivation.
Now I am against the garbage fee, that money already comes from taxes.
Also people who cannot afford to pay it, will just dump it somewhere.
No, Bloomberg aint a great mayor. With cuts in police forces and garbage fees, people will feel less safe and start moving to the cheaper suburbs. Out here in the North shore we are already seeing alot of ex-Manhattanites moving in.
>>No, people will not stop riding buses and subways with the $2 fare, but perhaps people will be taking less trips, because it will cost more. This could hurt businesses. <<
I don't know so much about this - if you've gotta go, you've gotta go.
On the other hand, a short distance cab ride (including tip) is on the order of $6-10. For three people the corresponding bus/sub fare is $4.50 now and $6 if the fare goes up to $2. For four people the prices would be $6 and $8. So a fare increase would make a cab more competitive price-wise for a group of 3 or 4, at least for short trips (say no more than a couple miles). And it's a helluva lot faster to be sure, except possibly at the peak of rush hour. And even then not likely except for a few hand-picked cases.
I wouldn't worry about it - the STATE will be raising GAS taxes by a good amount, and when that happens, TLC lets the cab fares go up since most taxi fleets are already on the verge of bankruptcy at the current fares. I think the ratios will remain the same after BOTH fare hikes. The STATE is BROKE ... gotta get money somewhere, and that means MORE taxes. Can't cut the cash handouts for corporate welfare after all.
Just to let me brothers and sisters in the city know the REAL poop, it wasn't Mayor Bloomy that is SCREWING you with all those taxes - it's PATURKEY and he's up for your elective approval in just two more weeks. Joe Bruno got a baseball stadium and *TWO* train stations. YOU guys get the bill. Just figured I'd let ya know since there's still a chance to repay the kind goobernor who jacked your taxes and left Bloomie holding the bag that exploded in his face leaving purple stains on him.
You still have two week to be able to get even. :)
Yeah after the election Pataki will come out crying about how horrible the state budget is and how we need a fare hike, etc. But before the election it's smooth sailing, everything's great, kumbaya my lord...
Well, folks down in the city seem to think that City Hall pulls all the cords (ain't so) but upstate, we've already been told "bend over darling, we're gonna do it HURRICANE style" ... 30% property tax hike, 45% school tax hike, and a bunch of brand new "sin taxes" on beer, wine, cigarettes, etc. DOT which plows the roads will *NOT* bring in their seasonal hires (workforce goes up by about 30% for plowing, they won't be plowing) ... yipe. And this is what got out BEFORE the elections - additional slap of the reality fish across the head after November 6th ...
But YOU guys won't be told until then because the state is already $4billion in the hole and NYC is going to take the pipe even worse than WE are. Yep, let's do some MORE Paturkey with mayo on a club roll ... not. :(
Gettin out the vaseline and spreadin eagle so it'll hurt less...
Damnit it almost makes me want to vote for that Golisano guy who's on TV every 5 minutes. Nah... I'll take McCall, letter writing or not (c'mon, this is the best they can do?)
Ahh I'm reminded of why I picked scientific research as a career, not politics, law or anything even remotely related...
H Carl McCall is an ECONOMIST (and he's GOOD at it) ... personally I think we could *USE* one right now. But hey, that's my opinion, Galisano's numbers don't add up any more than Paturkey's. I'd rather go with a guy that can count the money and come up with the same number TWICE. :)
Most people in Upstate and Downstate are screwed, and those who play the game in Albany and leave the state with their winnings are the reason.
Pataki wins, we continue to get screwed more than average in the city. McCall wins, maybe you guys get screwed more than average upstate. I'm voting for Golisano, and maybe at least some of the ripoffs will stop. We can't afford them anymore.
By the way, I think taxing the rich is the best idea. Unfortunately, we've already done it, to a greater extent than anyone else and right up to the limit we can without (even more of) them leaving and taking their money with them. Next solution.
Well ... I would have gone with Galisano myself until I talked to him in the little state employee's park in Albany one lunchtime. It was then that I discovered that he's about as coherent as Jesse Ventura and about as wise. (ask Minnestoans) ... in my book, it's H Carl. Take the Lotto money out of the general fund and free college. Sounds good, but where do you replace the money? Same for most of his other rap. Who are his "special interests?" "New York is a small place - people can WALK, they don't need subways - let them pay what it costs." His idea of cost? About $15.00 a ride. There's plenty more nutcake he was dishing out, but that's the only one that was "on topic" for here.
We might as well make Joe Bruno governor, he's got a few more bricks on his truck than Galisano, CEO of "PAYCHEX, Inc" ... only thing Galisano's missing is the pink boa. :)
Some election ... we get to choose among idiots. I'd write more, but I need to concentrate my mind - I'm busy sending telepathic messages to my company's CEO, trying to convince him to move us to Texas.
Kinda sounds like our choice here in Merry Ol' Maryland.
We get either a Democrap who is cuurently both the Lt. Gov and a Kennedy or a Repub who is currently a GOP Congressman from a district that is 82% Democratic. (Go Fig)
BTW, we are facing a $1.75 Billion deficit. The Dem wants more cuts/taxes, while the GOP proposes slots at the tracks. (Note: Both Delaware and West VA have 'em and they're taking $1.8 Billion from the Marylander that go there by the busload.)
Plus, we currently have the Sniper, who the pol's are praying will be caught before Election Day, else we'll have National Guardsmen at the polls for "protection".
For the "on topic" comment: the fare in Baltimore is $1.35, there are no transfers and 93% of passengers use some form of pass. Ridership is up on all forms, even on the buses.
Yes, you are right, he is to blame.HE is responsible for repealing the commuter tax 2 years ago. We have 84% of all transportation revenue but we only get 63% back, which means we get cheated out of 21% by the state. "Paturkey" was good his 1st term by helping to bring bus/subway transfers but in the 2nd he just screwed up BADLY, especially when it came to economics.
Also the commuter tax should be re-instated. Between a commuter tax, tolling the remaining free Easr river bridges, maybe just maybe the fare wouldn't go up.
There are always people who cannot afford a car . The subway will still be the commute of choice for many. Ridership may dip briefly as it has with every previous hike but it will pick up again because the bridges, roads cannot handle too much more traffic.
With a card there is also the cost of parking which hs to be incldued.
I personally, and expect to be flamed severely, support a fare hike as the current system needs many improvements and they cost money.
Here is a list of projects I forsee as being needed (and not in the current five year plan)
Renovate upper 1 line stations (Dyckman-242, 145-168)
Renovate Sea beach open cut stations
Renovate 4th Ave Brooklyn Local Stations
Renovate Smith and 9th and add elevators
structure rehab; New Lots, Culver, Pelham,Myrtle, upper 1 line Els.
Renovate Van-Alst, Greenpoint, Nassau, Broadway, etc 0n the G.
I could go on..
all rail transit systems willo soar higher than the average worker
will be able to pay !
With everything that is expected to up within the next few years. City's Low-income taxpayer will need 3 or 4 jobs instead of 2 to paid off living expense or simply move out. Thus, NYC will become become the second Beverly Hill, California.
Ah, but the elephant party don't care ... as long as Ken Lay don't get convicted and accounting firms that ripped off TRILLIONS of dollars (Arthur Andersen) get CONVICTED and have to only pay $500,000 and 5 years probation, then the "little people" will just have to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps and "gird it up." :(
Two weeks left until you can VOTE your approval of the continuing Ponzi scheme ... vote early, vote often. :)
HMMMM!
A lot of posters miss that NYCTA is like a charity...the ride is subsidised and Mayor Bloomburg is balking NYCs part is a 663 Million Dollar deficit. When I began riding, a token was fifteen cents...now a buck fifty. Two dollars is still a bargain...does anyone know what might happen if NYCTA began zoning fares??? London Underground Tubes is always a nice subject to discuss BUT cheapest ride for a short distance is about four U.S. Dollars. When riders have to pay FULL FARE, there will be surprises. CI Peter
Wrong information:
A single fare in London is £1.60. At current exchange rates, that's $2.48. Of course, very few people pay full fare. There is a one day system pass for central London for £4.10 about $6.25. Unlike the clowns running the NYC system, no attempt is made to hide the availability of the one day. Seven day passes for central London cost something like £16.20 about $25.
What attempt is made to hide the one-day? One-days are mentioned in all Metrocard brochures and available for sale at all stations.
Are you referring to the fact that they are only sold at silicon-based MVMs and not at carbon-based ones? Since there are now more silicon MVMs than carbon MVMs, I don't see that as a problem.
Well it's 3:45 AM this beautiful Saturday October 19, and boy do I have a story to tell!
I was coming back up to my place on W121st st in Manhattan from my family's place on Staten Island. I grabbed the 2 AM ferry, then the 1:48 1 train at SF. I like the ferry John Noble that runs late at night - John Noble was a maritime artist, and there are lots of copies of his excellent lithographs throughout the vessel. So I walked around the boat, had a beer, went out on the front deck for a bit to catch my favorite skyline, as well as Orion coming up in the east along with Jupiter and Saturn. Getting back to the story...
On the train I was talking for a while with Jerry, an Extra C/R on his way to work the 3 this morning. We had an interesting conversation about South Ferry, the WTC, Redbirds, working for NYCT (I don't work for NYCT, just an interested railfan), etc. He mentioned that some of the new cars (142s, I think), had a tendency to get stuck in some of the river tunnels, requiring a consist of redbirds to go in and tow them out. Long live the mighty Redbird!
Well, just as we're coming up out of 72nd street, the guy sitting next to me loses his lunch. More likely his 17th beer, by the look and smell of it - no chunks, just liquid. On the floor, down his shirt, on his sleeve. Misses my leg by inches, and the booze smell permeates the entire car in a matter of seconds. Jerry and I look at each other with that look, that "only in new york" look of simultaneous disdain and humor. The kind of thing you'd rather not see, but can't live without seeing. Meanwhile the Emesis Nemesis flees into the shadows and safety of the 79th street station, leaving his "deposit" behind to roll about on the floor.
Little did I know that there's a TA requirement that a car with said deposit be isolated. So the train's held in the station while the T/O and Jerry, who's not even on duty yet, have to seal off the car and herd all us geese into the next car. While this is going on, of course the train is held at 79th street, leaving the C/R to keep announcing "the train is being held momentarily at the station." We don't get back underway for about 10 minutes, and Jerry had to run off to see the C/R, so I never got to talk to him after that. The poor blokes in the back of the train had no idea what was going on; at least I got to see a show :) Gawd I love New York!
But on the bright side, I was talking to another passenger who had heard rumors that someone was attacked in the back of the train, or that someone had fallen under the train. So at least I can say that nobody was hurt tonight, no 12-9, nobody going to the hospital, and any night you can say that is a good night. Someone just needs a lesson in handling their liquor.
So in the off chance that Jerry is reading this, or one of you knows him, I had a great time. He must be up at Lenox right now checking out his train to start his run in about an hour.
And in the even more off chance that the gray-shirted, pony-tailed puke purveyor of 79th street is reading this, perhaps I could offer you some lessons in holding your liquor. Not that I'm moralizing - I've puked in public enough times, lord knows! Just not on a train.
Somebody said you're not living unless you see something new every day. Ok nobody said it so I will.
-jeremy
Once you work for the TA as long as I have, that would be just another normal maniac Friday night!
Why dosen't the MTA just have a quasi fare hike instead of a full blown one. Basically they just need to stop offering 15$ metrocard discounts and raise the MetroCard fare to the $1.50 regular fare. They could also raise the cost of a Funpass to $4.50 or $5. Weekly's and Monthly's could remain the same to avoid alienating too many people.
This would provide extra revenue, hopefully get more people using Weekly's and Monthly's (which saves on MVM costs) and not be a "real" fare hike because the "Fare" would still be 1.50.
"Weekly's and Monthly's could remain the same to avoid alienating too many people."
True, but also without raising the revenue needed to pay for expenses. The MTA needs to cut costs or raise revenues A LOT. Cutting costs will destroy the service, either in the short run or the long run or both.
Better idea... raise the fare by 10% (15 cents) and keep the discount.
1.65 a fare, 10 would cost 16.50 but with metrocard 10% discount 10 costs $15.00.
Accomplishes almost the same thing that eliminating the discount would, except now you're not punishing people who buy in bulk.
This could be marketed as: If you buy 10 rides or more, you will still be paying only $1.50 a ride.
Occasional riders would be pissed, but lets face it... occasional riders don't matter. People who ride the subway 4 times a year can pay the extra 15 cents a ride.
Here I list of R143's sets that I made up over Thursday(10/17) & Friday(10/18) while working the L these days. I might not have gotting all the set since most of the time I was Optating my train, and was unable to get the numbers of the trains. I am listing the by 4 car sets and not the trains they were in because some train were cut and put together with other sets over night.
Here the list.
8109-12, 8113-16, 8125-28, 8129-32, 8137-40, 8153-56, 8157-60,
8161-64, 8165-68, 8169-72, 8173-76, 8193-97, 8197-8200, 8201-04, 8213-16, 8217-20, 8221-24, 8225-28, 8229-32, 8233-36.
Note:
8229-36 were doing burn in tests over these two days, so they were not in serivce but should be soon.
I also saw more @ East New York Yard but could not get the numbers off of them execpt for one set and that was 8244-47. I would also say that the cars for CBTC testing was there to.
8125-32 are always keeped together because of they are testing I different companys Door Controler. These are made by Fuige(The film company, Sorry bad Speller). If you get this train hope the door open. I had this twice over the last 7 days and twice the Front section would not open no mater what we did to them. It only happen to 8129-32 when it was the lead set. I happen to me a Jefferson St going to the city, then the train was turned around and I had it happen at 3rd Ave going to Brooklyn. The First time the train was puuled from serivce and second time we were told just to open the crew door at 3rd ave and let people off that way and see if it happen at 1st Ave again.
Well hope this list help anyone.
Robert
I also saw more @ East New York Yard but could not get the numbers off of them execpt for one set and that was 8244-47. I would also say that the cars for CBTC testing was there to.
That should be 8244-41, which were just delivered.
Thanks for the update. It shows a lot of effort and observation.
The door "experiment" IIRC, is a prelude to supplier choices for the R-160. If they don't work, hopefully that company won't be chosen.
Now, seeing as you're at ENY, how about keeping a eye out for 4400-series R-40Ms? These oughta be heading to Coney Island very soon.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
At the Yonkers Plant, 8295 was the highest on the property. How many are on the property but not yet in service?
As of today, 8264 is outside.
thanks for the update, we dont care about the spelling. this indicates 128 cars in service or 16 trainsets.
This idea has been in the works for about a year now, according to a close friend of mine who is ione of the top managers at SD Trolley Inc.
He said they are basically strapped for cash and the advertising is being looked at to bring a cash influx.
I don't see any problem with it -- look at Portland's MAX fleet. Look at many fleets in Europe. And doesn't Toronto have some subway cars done?
..........! ............it will look like graffitti !!
nasty !!
...i just wanted to complain about this ...........period !
it seems that soon all transit systems will BAN all forms of
photographers. I could not believe i was hasseled yesterday at the
los angeles union station because i took some metrolink shots ??
I was done and walking away !!
I remember standing at the clinton station in chicago 3 weeks ago,
the motoman yelling at the top of his lungs " no picture taking "
.........like i was pointing a GUN at him ??
folks its all over !! take a picture of a train......................
....................go 2 jail........!................??
...bad times we are living in these dayz .........
Nah, they'll just require those who want to take photos, get a photo pass if the believe it will make any difference. Would u fill out a photo pass and take unlimited photos without harrasement or be banned or worry?
have you ever tried to get a photo permit these days ?........
.........i dont think so ! .they aint givin' em out !!
i would like to hear from the anyone on this board who was
given a permit recently !!
come on folks someone out there was given a permit ??
when was the last time this happened ??...................hmmmmmm..!
Things have definitely changed, but BigEdIRTmanL is dropping by up here, and though it took some doing, presentation of identification, license plates, show car to the local cops and CSX Police in preparation for tomorrow, we've got clearance for the property and the yards, and if my buddy Harry the dispatcher is still in the office when Ed gets here (Amtrak willing before his end of shift) we're going to try to get Unca Ed some cab time perhaps.
It's all in how you do it, who you know and how willing you are to make proper preparations and let everybody know what you're doing BEFORE you do it. And also knowing what the word "NO" means. :)
...Well these dayz ..........."the word "NO".....
is the only answer you get !
you made my point well eventually ( the word "NO" )
will be the final and only word !!
then we have to -shoot-&-hope-we-dont-get-arested-!!
and check dis' out ...taking pictures of a train / bus !!!
..........shit !!
Well ... since we'll be down there at the yahds at around shift change time, I'm sure we'll meet up with the po-lice ... and we'll all head up together to the Feura Bush Tavern and do some 12 ounce curls at the bar. Reall, it's all a matter of your attitude and the respect you demonstrate. I've never had a problem on ANY railroad property because I call ahead, talk to folks, establish the ground rules and then FOLLOW them to the T. Just a matter of working with folks ahead of time and letting them SEE that you're not a foamer.
But if you say "fook 'em, I'll do what I want," Then they'll fook you right back. What can I say?
Because foaming on railroad tracks is not good for wheel adhesion.
Amen ... and TA equipment doesn't have a sand pipe. :)
BTW, what is the restriction of photo-taking on NYC Transit property?
According to this website, I use a focus-free camera which is not categorized in any of the cameras not allowed, that are listed. Nevertheless, I feel the suspicion of NYC Transit workers, (even janitors) whenever I take pictures in stations or trains.
I was irritated by a contentious motorman on the #1 at 242nd St. about seven months ago, as we requested to take a photo inside the train, and the motorman replied with a firm tone "Nope," as if he thought no picture-taking was allowed at all.
Even worse, he hung his large bag on a hook on the top of the motorman's door, so the little railfan window was blocked.
I used to and take (not nowadays but when we go ralifanning) photos on NJT. They don't have a policy, which I guess is because NJT property does not have any significant or potential value for terrorists or for any reason. All of its major and the backbone operation of NJT happens at MMC, a highly-secured area, it's official offices and such. I don't think they have any for PATH either, since PATH is a small network.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
PATH Is a no no. They do have rules against taking pictures. I remember after 9/11 lots of railfans posted that they were really being threatened trying to take pics of PATH
at least it is posted in some of thier stations ......
..........they can be real assholes ........PATH..........
Must have taken effect after 9/11 since I had no problems on 9/4.
>>PATH Is a no no. They do have rules against taking pictures. I remember after 9/11 lots of railfans posted that they were really being threatened trying to take pics of PATH<<
I don't always photograph PATH, but before 9/11 there was a wrong railing operation at the Harrison station. Although I wasn't warned by Police or employees, the engineer of an approaching train saw me with the camera and waved his fingers side to side. Like saying "NO-NO", NO PICTURES PLEASE !
Bill "Newkirk"
In Chicago last June, I simply hung out in the last seat of the last car and shot video all the way from Belmont to Kimble, and also took pictures as train DEPARTED Library. Then they can't see you doing it.
allright !! go ahead man !
THERE ARE NO LAWS AGAINST TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS ON TRANSIT SYSTEMS ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - even on the PATH System, which had notices posted for years!!! Anybody who is rudely challenged by any transit employee or police officer: get their name and report them! Also, contact your local chapter of the ACLU. We still had a Constitution in the USA the last time I looked!
I had an incident 2 years ago in Chicago, at the Western Station on the O'Hare Line, where a station agent/security guard came screaming at me and stated he was going to have me arrested for taking pictures. I got his employee # and promptly proceeded to the CTA Offices in the Merchandise Mart Building. After threatening to go to the newspapers, I was met by a Senior Manager, who stated that there is no official policy against taking photographs. Their only concern was over commercial photography, which they felt would disrupt their operations.
After explaining my incident,they extended a complete apology and even offered to make arrangements to have me return there to continue taking pictures. But since I had completed my photography for the day, I declined.
One further note on PATH: At a NY Division ERA Meeting a few years back, some representatives from PATH made a presentation. A member of the audience brought up the policy of photography at PATH stations and mentioned that he had been harrassed by PATH employees. He was assured that anybody taking pictures on the PATH system would not be arrested.
So even though things have changed security-wise since 9/11 to the point of paranoia, whipped up by the media, we still need to stand up for our rights, or soon we will have no rights at all!
Well put, Harry. I'm a very occasional photographer of transit systems and even then I've had one employee recently (on the HBLR) raise an objection to my photography. As many have pointed out, what we all as railfans need to do is: stay in public areas (strictly observe the NO TRESPASSING signs), refrain from flash photography and use of prohibited equipment (such as tripods), and do not interfere in any way with the operation - after all, the folks who work there have a job to do, namely running a transportation system, not mopping up after foamers. Do that and they can fuss all they want, but we're legal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess I've got it good. Recently I was in Salt Lake City, photographing their light rail system. (The photos will be posted shortly) and when I explained to the T/O what I was doing, he offered to let me sit in the cab and took my picture at the controls. I wish we all had it so good.
you are not thre only one who shot photos in salt lake city !!
i was there two weeks ago near the greyhound station there .....
at least there they let you take pictures as long as you have a ticket !!
Before you puff out your chest feathers too far, I would point out that your original statement,
"THERE ARE NO LAWS AGAINST TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS ON TRANSIT SYSTEMS ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"
is not totally accurate. While NYCT does not forbid photography on areas of public access, it does regulate the type of equipment that may be used to take pictures. It also stipulates the purposes for which photo-taking is permitted. I'm quite sure other rail properties including PATH have similar restrictions and regulations. Yes, you have your rights but so do the rail properties to regulate all activities engaged in on their property.
Train Dude states: << While NYCT does not forbid photography on areas of public access, it does regulate the type of equipment that may be used to take pictures. It also stipulates the purposes for which photo-taking is permitted. I'm quite sure other rail properties including PATH have similar restrictions and regulations. Yes, you have your rights but so do the rail properties to regulate all activities engaged in on their property. >>
Transit Systems, which are public authorities, do have a legal right to regulate activities and conduct for the protection of their customers, and can be held responsible for failure to do so. But when a public authority attempts to regulate free movement, they are not within their rights. This has been challenged in court many times, such as in the case of soliciting for religious organizations, entertaining (i.e., musicians), and even photography. In most cases, court ruling went against the public authorities.
Some years ago, the NYCTA had to remove a section of its TA Rules & Regulations prohibiting photography in the Transit System (which was punishable by a $10.00 fine). This was the only Transit System at the time that had such a legal statute. There were a number of challenges, which resulted in the statute being removed. This set a precedent for future legal challenges.
In closing, a *rule* is not a *law*. You may be challenged, but you may NOT be arrested and put through the criminal process, for taking a photograph. I was in law enforcement for many years and know this to be a fact.
As I recall, the case that resulted in removal of the rule prohibiting photography on the NYC subway system took place around 1995 and involved a woman who was arrested while taking pictures of her neighborhood subway station (on the Jerome Avenue Line, if memory serves). She had complained umpteen times about conditions in the control area and was not satisfied with the results, so she resolved to photograph the conditions as proof of her claims.
Alan Kiepper, the President of NYC Transit at the time, had the rule removed after a firestorm of protest in the newspapers. To my knowledge, the rescission of the rule had NOTHING to do with anything a court said or didn't say about the legality of the rule -- it was strictly a decent response by a transit executive who realized that some things are just not worth fighting about.
David
I agree with Harry P. HOWEVER, 9/11/01 has changed our way of photography forever. That day we were unprepared for an attack of that calliber. Security NATIONWIDE has to be at or near its peak and we must be on guard from now on b/c "these people" are in hiding somewhere waiting to attack again. And most people say that they will.
On top of that, you have a sniper running loose shooting innocent people down South, an attack in Bali-possible war with Iraq-need I say any more?
So expect many questions if you're standing somewhere for minutes and hours at a time taking pics b/c that's called a "suspicious activity" according to many.
Honestly, I feel quite happy with all of the pics that I have. I love photography of all kinds. However, after the MNRR Open House this past weekend, I have decided to stop taking any new pics for a while. Why you ask? It's because I feel like stopping. I feel like there's nothing else more to take pics of. (A bus with a wrap? A new subway car? An old subway car?) Please-I got those already.
I will definitely still be donating my pics to sites like nycsubway.org and transitalk.org but taking anything brand new will be nonexistant for a while. When I'll be back is not known at this time. But as Arnold Schwartzeneger says:
"I'll be back but always on guard!!!"
#220 MNRR
Please do not refer to the DC Area as part of the South, we don't consider ourselves to be Southerners (pet peeve of mine and other people in the area).
They do have two men in questioning right now but they have not been formally charged. I do hope this sniper business comes to an end soon.
dont feel bad in atlanta they will call you in washington d.c. a
""Yankee"" in a new york second !!
i remember it well !!
Hell, guy ... Atlanta considers TENNESSEE "damned yankees" ... :)
worse than that in Valdosta Ga anything north of there is considered
a "Yankee"..........!!
i couldnt believe it !!
this sticker ( how about Dem dogs )!! in ahtens ga..
YEA HOW ABOUT THEM
& in jacksonville florida ( how bout them' gators ) !!
whaaaaat ??..................!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
man oh man !!..............lol
Yeah, amusing things down in crackerland ... those of us up in New York are enjoying this whole "West Nile" thing ... didn't mean SQUAT when people in New York CITY were dying from it. But once it made it down to Trent Lott land in Mississippi, SUDDENLY it mattered. Pity it came too late, if that bastard and his cronies gave a crap when it was "New York's problem" maybe something might have been done before it spread. Don't mind me though, I'll be more sane in about two weeks. :)
i know that feeling well .................yep !!
i never did confess to those georgia nuts i was born in nyc !!
i did not wnat to hear them calling me a yankee over and over again!
it was like a new kind of racism ...., if you catch my drift !!
and that marta logo crap almpost drove me insane 1983 to 1988 ...
the moving ___________rapidly thru atlanta B.S. ......etc...
i escaped the city of da' planet of da' apes ( atlanta ga. )
too bad there were some nice folks down there .....a few ...
the marta trains just reached the airport station when i left there.
long time ago it seems now .........................!
A number of folks I worked with in the television industry moved down to Turnerland ... they came back pretty quickly. :)
he sold out too .........
Kevin: catch the little camera I carry on the job...Minox sixed but 27 high res XIF photos (did you get Peggys operating a signal yet open?) WalMart rules...new camera...sixty bucks...3.2 minutes of 640/480 video with sound, up to 450 VGA pics and up to 2000 SIF pics.
I'll be working on a CD-ROM (directly transcribable) called 'Inspection 101....What you should have learned by now.'
Software with new camera is worth far more than the hardware...I didn't get a 1394 'FireWire' camcorder but I'll be looking for a TV tuner/video input card soon. For sixty bucks you get a tiny video cam full color that works with USB. OnTheJuice frugal CI approved.
Unfortunately, the XIF format your camera is using is NOT supported outside of whatever software you're using, so wasn't able to see the pix ... any chance of converting them to JPG or something less "propietary" so I can see them? Would love to ...
Well, I'm hardware hardwired. If nuttin else, I'll print and scan. Works for lots of things with the glue stick...like the stuff on my dashboard!!! OTJ official vehicle of NYCTA. CI Peter
Sorry 'bout that ... XIF is a Kodak format, but for reasons I can't fathom, whatever they wired in there is a diverge from their prior standard. It's JPG'y sorta, but proprietary. Tells me that they designed the hardware to work with a pay website somehow and then NASDAQ slapped them with a shoe paddle. :)
But yeah, very interested if I could SEE the pictures.
Well after my experience OUTSIDE the Palisades mall I am sticking to taking pictures in parks and residential areas.
We are on the road to a police state.
Yes and we're also moving towards a "welfare state", John. Doesn't that bother you, too?
Are the athorities also stopping people from taking pictures of transit lines in NYC from the public streets, like taking a picture of Canarise line from around Atlantic ave? I can understand secruity but not Communism. There are tons of video's, pictures, books and so forth of all kinds on transit, communiter and rail road lines through out the United States, stopping rail fans won't stop terrorism. and again not to totally rule it out there are far bigger targets than # 7 train to Main Street Flushing to take out. Also remember our President told us back a year ago to go on and live our lifes as we did and not let any terroism stop us from excersizing our rights and freedom. I just love the fact that no matter the crime is wether the lose of thousands of souls to one individual soul the rest of our freedom loving citizens must be punished and denied what we hold so dear in our lives. JV
Well I would be wary about taking photos in the NYC subway, as with what Salaam had experienced on his last visit to NYC.
It is better if you are with a group and not alone when taking photos, that way the cops act like you're a tourist instead of a railfan.
Unfortunately, in alot of ways, we are letting the terrorists alter our lives. Not only cameraphobes, but also by the wimpy plans for teh WTC. Anything less than two 110 story towers is a disgrace to our forefathers.
i am almost burned out on this after my last visit ......
I am a Brooklyn born hopefully with a long life to live past 48 years old, but i will be darned ( notice that I did not say a bad word) if I will allow anyone cop, fbi or who ever to stop me from taking pictues of my transit system, city, home town which is Rosedale Queens. There is no top secret to any of this period. We all have a right in a public domame to excersise our freedom and if I wish to stand on the corner of Atlantic and Penn. av in Brooklyn and snap a picture or run my video camara of the jamaica av el or back to Atlantic av station, I will certianly do so. I will be glad to give new yorks finest a day and time that i will be in NY to collecting my memories of my Home town JV
the more of us do this keep on fighting then we will win !!!
hell we are not hurting anybody AT ALL !!
Think about it this way. Why would some one stand out in the open to take a picture of a sturcture or the amount of people or the type of trains for the purpose of destroying. you can easely sit in a van with a telephoto lends or a video camara to get just about anything above the ground or at grade level. or you can buy a token and ride the train and look around and tell others, or take a pad and pencil and make notes or draw pictures of what you have seen. I really beleive that they are looking for a guy with a camara in some part of the transit system wearing a shirt with big letters on his back that say "TERRORIST" OR " RAIL FAN". OR " THIEF" OR " RAPEST" our country has come down to picking words and syllables to peices. we really need to push these loney tone people into the east river and go back to free speach and freedom of movement> thank you just my opion folks
"I can understand secruity but not Communism"
What does one have to do with the other. Communism is an economic system and has nothing to do with security.
go to a communist country and find out
Train Dude My last statement was uncalled for and i am sorry for knee jerking at the statement. I just get so frustrated when our officals and elected officials go to such extremes that they would treat us like children and well lets say take our toys away from us. Please allow me to turn my views back to subway talk and not in current events thanks
john
Your previous statement was a valid point, nonetheless. Extreme, excessive security is a hallmark of communist and/or dictatorship countries where it is used to protect the regime in power and carry out its orders. Train Dude is also correct in that security and communisim, a political system, are directly connected to eachother in and of themselves - I think the political structure of the nation state has to be introduced first, before communisim and security can be linked.
-Robert King
We are all subject to rules. I cannot come to your residence and take pictures in youre windows- I'm sure you'd ask me to leave and call the polcie if I did not leave.
Transit systems are not play toys or your personal property. They belong to society who has made rules and regulations. If you cannot abide by society's rules find an uninhabited island- set up your own society and then we'll come and annoy you by breaking your rules!
if ( Joe Testagrose: )....( Joe Testagrose, ) ....( Doug Grotjahn )
..( Steve Hoskins )..( Steve Zabel)..( Jerry Appleman ) ..and many
others obeyed the non photography rule of subway trains ....
and did as they were told DO NOT PHOTOGRAPH OUR TRAINS .....!!!
we would not have the many wonderful beautiful photos of the scrapped
no longer in service classics the made the rail systems possible etc..
( you know what i mean ) like the R-1-9s low vs / high vs ....etc..
the point is by breaking the rule of not taking pictures of the rail
transit cars and trains of thier days etc..
we benifit from the well done wonderful work they did taking photos
at the risk of being arrested and having thier photography equipment
taken away !! i understand this happened to a lot of folks !!
so much for critics of what i try to do taking one of a kind videos
and shooting stills on the #7 being stopped at woodside and told i am
not supposed to be doing that ? taking pictures of a public transit
system anywhere in any of the 50 states ....metrolink commuter trains.
I am glad they broke the law !! glad i did it too
( taking illegal pics ) since it is illegal to take train photos ..
at least i had the GUTS to keep on fighting !! ....yea !
thankz ............salaamallah
Geez, could you be any more anal-retentive about this? Change topics and get a life!
When Joe, Doug, Steve, Jerry and Steve all took their
pictures, we HAD two tall buildings in our city's landscape
and (pretty much) nothing to worry about...except which side
of the fence Mike Jackson fit on.
THESE DAYS, we DON'T have those two tall buildings, and
everyone and their godfather-in-law jumping at the chance
to glamorize our vulnerability... for THEIR own pleasure,
which frankly, has proven ill to one of ours.
also thy wont give out any nw permits anymore !!
........................................none !
Hey, the guys you mentioned, I think of them as being great photographers judging from their pics on NYCSubway. Are any of them still alive and well? I hope so... Oh yeah, and you too, Salaam!
They're all still with us except Mr. Zabel.
thankz the works we do do not have a price on them .....but without railfan photographers all rail transit history is
gone forever ( unless you are a scale modeler ) ....!!
Doug Grotjahn is very much around: I run into him at almost every ERA meeting where you can find him with his impressive slide collection on display at the stage of the lecture hall...he can also be found on most of the ERA or March of Dimes sponsored railfan trips. Salaam wasn't aware of it, but Doug Grotjahn was on the Steeplecab Trip of last month.
Well for one thing, when those guys took many of their photos it was a different world (1960's, 1970's, etc), and they didn't break the law. South Ferry 1/9 already mentioned this, but we unfortunately do not live in the same world we all lived in on September 10, 2001.
Hey Buddy: Times have changed and everyone with a camera is under suspicion. I was over to 207th yard for medical this afternoon...then did a little 'walking about.' I was 'eyed as a stranger' but wore my ID, lockout tags, TWU 100 hat with line pins (including Shore Line Trolley Museum) and tools I use every day. Saw eight Redbirds being modified (not scrapped) with 9071 and 9001 in the forefront. The pleasure of sharing is far outweighed by losing my employment Sooooo, please try to stay out of trouble and remain 'The Nightshot King.' CI Peter
Find away to make the birdies disappear and reappear in Branford's backyard!!! LOL!
-Stef
That would be ab-fab ... of course, minor issue of where we'd PUT 'em. I don't think Unca Sparky or the others would want us tying up the westbound track with a layup. :)
And to put them in their native environment, we've GOTTA break out the erector set and build us an EL. Heh.
Or at least the express tracks on the Dyre Avenue line.
A throwback to the 60s!
Nahhhhhhhh, might be too obvious...
-Stef
disobey the law take pictures of trains !! do it now !!
Perfectly legal. (Nice shot, too.)
I've taken hundreds of NYC subway pictures. I've also taken a bunch in Washington, Baltimore, and Chicago. Nobody has even approached me.
Then again, I don't give anyone reason to approach me. I use a simple handheld camera with no tripod, I almost always turn off the flash, and I never enter areas closed to the public.
Great shot Salaam. But, it is legal to take photos on the subway. If you follow the guidelines given by David in this post, you really should have no trouble. It has to be your method that gets you in trouble. I have taken hundreds of photos in the subway, LIRR, and many other systems, from about 15 years ago to the present, and have only gotten stopped twice, and that wasn't because I was taking photos, it was more because I was trespassing.
Both times were on the LIRR, near Fresh Pond Yard, just about the time before the NYA took over freight operations. Once a freind and I were taking photos of the old abandoned Fremont Tower, about a week before it was to be torn down. The LIRR ran no trains on the weekends, and Fresh Pond yard used to be a free for all on the weekends in the early 90's. A LIRR cop driving along the Bay Ridge branch's dirt road came up to us and asked what we were doing. We told him we were taking photos of the old tower because they were going to tear it down. He was kind of impressed that we were even interested in it and he said, "Okay, be careful, watch out for trains." and he drove off.
The other time didn't go quite as well, but the cop had an attitude from the beginning (but remember, we WERE trespassing). It also was a weekend in Fresh Pond yard, and I used to like collecting photos of all the different boxcars, sort of "roster" shots. Me and the same freind were taking photos, and we were leaving Fresh Pond Yard at Otto Road, and a cop stopped us. He asked what we were doing, and he insisted that we were grafitting the freight cars. We kept saying that we were photographing the cars, and he kept insisting that we were photographing our "work" on the freight cars. He threathened to confiscate our film to prove it. He wanted ID which I didn't have on me, and we talked in circles for a while and finally he relented when I showed him a little notepad I carried that I had written which boxcars I had already, etc. He actually got friendlier near the end.
Well at that time, alot of people used the railroad tracks there as a shortcut between Glendale and Middle Village, via the cemetery, so it was not uncommon to see all kinds of people from young kids to old ladies, to people walking their dogs, walking through that part of the yard. Now it is nearly impossible to do that anyway as the NYA is much more security concious, and there are many trains run through there, even on Saturday and Sunday which was never seen in the early 90's.
i did not use a tripod when i shot the #7 if i do use one it is for
night shots but too many stations shake and move around so the shots
blur if you do use them !!
whatwever you have to do 2 get that last redbird shot ...
....go get it !! ............& do it good !!!
..............!
It'll be on CD-ROM......'R-33 Inspection Basics.' Upper management wants the Last of the Redbirds gone but fails to realise that these trainsets are a basic learning tool...new Car Inspectors thrown into the R142 pool will never be able to associate carbody/undercar/propulsion as one integrated system but just things to look at and clean. Redbird Carbody is an easy job BUT you have the responsibility of insuring an operational integrated system...especially if your partner does not know what to do. You must know all systems, be able to zone and 'fire up' your married pair, troubleshoot and repair all defects in the trainline, obtain positive T/O indication with proper door relay operation and be able to control doorsets completely from four points of operation (2 T/O and 2 C/R.) Once they're gone, all that there will be is TrainSim and BVE. We will see. CI Peter
Nah, you'll all be one happy Star Fleet running Microsoft Subway 2010 (tm) ... reboot train to re-enter funway. :)
Another proposal that won't go away. I don't see this going anywhere. The city council delegations from Brooklyn and Queens will never let it happen.
From the 10/19/2002 Daily News-
http://www.mostnewyork.com/front/story/28319p-26876c.html
unless they can tie it to fares IMHO, if you do not NEED you vehicle for tax deductible usage in Manhattan, you should pat a hefty fee for the ecological damage. And that goes for residents as well. The time for oil based consumer excess is over. Take the SUV's off the roads. Economically punish single occupancy drivers, stop shipping money to our "friends" who sell us oil and shoot at our troops who keep them in power.
This tax is a terrible idea, punishes the working man way too hard. The taxes for the richest residents of the city should be dramatically increased, and the taxes for the working class, blue-collar workers should be steady, or even lowered. You will never decrease the traffic congestion, no matter how hard you try. And even if you do, those drivers are just gonna be shoved onto already crowded subway routes across the river that are already running at or near capacity.
The Thief in Chief needs to stop encouraging tax cuts nationwide, because they are screwing us over. Tax cuts have never solved an economic crisis, only made fiscal government problems worse. Saying that tax cuts spurs business and the consumer has money to spend is a pure myth and flat-out lie. It never works that way.
The only way to get away from the Middle Eastern problems is to develop the bio-fuel technology that already exists. Most Americans arent aware that the technology for renewable bio-fuels exist already, and can be added straight into a conventional diesel engine. But as long as the fascists in power are controlled by private interests from the oil, auto, etc industries, you will never see this being pushed until we are all out of oil, and we piss off every world leader that we havent already upset...so they cut off our supply.
Just my two cents...
[This tax is a terrible idea, punishes the working man way too hard.]
1. It's not a tax - it would be administered by the Department of Transportation, not the Department of Finance.
2. Somebody thought it was a great idea, especially if tolls are graduated by time of day. The late Professor William Vickrey won the Nobel Prize in Economic Science a few years ago for his research into "congestion pricing."
3. It doesn't "punish"; it simply asks those who choose to impose costs on society to - gasp!! - actually PAY those costs. Sounds fine to me.
I agree. Marty Markowitz called the idea a turkey? Well, he's a wimp for letting politics get in the way of reality.
Moreover, it will be even easier to charge tolls on them in the futre. An official from the Regional Planning Association once visited a class I was taking: The next generation of toll collection, which would replace E-Z Pass, would eliminate the need for toll booths altogether. Drivers would be debited after passing through a particular location.
Fair is fair - bring on the tolls. If car traffic drops as a result - even better. Maybe the Brooklyn Bridge could then be for pedestrians and cyclists only.
I think that people should be able to cross all the bridges for free.
But if they want to bring a ton or two of metal with them into a place where space is scarce, now that's another matter.
TAX:
Main Entry: 2tax
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Date: 14th century
1 a : a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes b : a sum levied on members of an organization to defray expenses
TOLL:
Main Entry: 1toll
Pronunciation: 'tOl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin tolonium, alteration of Late Latin telonium customhouse, from Greek tolOnion, from telOnEs collector of tolls, from telos tax, toll; perhaps akin to Greek tlEnai to bear
Date: before 12th century
1 : a tax or fee paid for some liberty or privilege (as of passing over a highway or bridge)
Tax and Toll, in essence, can be considered synonyms. A toll is a tax administered by some form of authority.
The person who thought it was a good idea was an economist, not a working-class citizen who has to pay those TAXES.
When a working-class person has to commute to manhattan for his job to feed his family, and has to pay over $100 a month to do so, it is indeed a punishment, and a great injustice. How does someone commuting to their blue-collar job impose costs on society? All the trucks that cross the bridge already impose costs on society in the form of prices of goods. Perhaps there should be a high truck only toll, once the cross-harbor rail tunnel ever gets built.
as I seem to have been misunderstood, clarification.
I was trying to 1. economically punish SUV owners/drivers noy particularly a blue collar auto, BUT IMHO a design for which there is NO EXCUSE. 2.Long term posters may remember I often argue for lower or NO fare on mass transit, so I am explicitly NOT trying to screw the productive classes. 3. As to the crooks who have usurped our government... 4. Bio diesel, wind generated electricity, solar these are the rouites to energy independence. (I will shower in the morn with water heated on my roof) 5. My snide comment about the mid east--WITHOUT any insult to anyone's faith or attitude towards US policy in the "oil patch" the bottom line is IF we don't need to buy their product, we have no need to garrison their lands and even less to pay them lip service. (a large savings for our budget let alone balance of payments related advantages)
Okay, back to counting rivets, window sahes and handrails.
The person who thought it was a good idea was an economist, not a working-class citizen who has to pay those TAXES.
The economist was thinking about the impact for society as a whole (they pay him to do that). The working class citizen has no incentive to do so and thus thinks only about himself. Society works far better when it accepts that people will always be selfish in their actions, because that is human nature.
When a working-class person has to commute to manhattan for his job to feed his family, and has to pay over $100 a month to do so, it is indeed a punishment, and a great injustice.
The working class person currently pays taxes to fund the bridge. Those taxes will either be lowered, repealed or redistributed. The latter is certain as the city needs more revenue. It's better to get that new revenue from user fees which can be avoided by using an alternative, than with new higher taxes which are compulsory.
The working man subjected to paying East River bridge tolls has a number of alternatives, that person can take the subway, bus, carpool or even move. People should pay the true costs of their lifestyle, this discourages wasteful methods of living whose costs have to be borne anyway. I don't see any reason why somebody whose burden on society is less should pay just so other able-bodied persons can have an unneccessarily expensive lifestyle.
If people realize that living in Brooklyn or Queens is too expensive to be worthwhile, then they won't live there. If it is truly not worth the expense, then few would live there. I don't think we should spend billions of dollars to promote wasteful places of living (COUGHSUBURBSCOUGH).
Manhattan is small and too expensive to house its entire workforce, people will still have to live in other places surrounding it, Brooklyn and Queens won't become depopulated. Besides, far more people use the subway to get from Royal Island to Manhattan and will hardly even notice the toll on the car lanes. With a toll there will be enough money to prevent deferred maintenance and hopefully the Manhattan Bridge will never again have to lose half of its rail capacity.
Taxes Taxes Taxes....
Todays readings advise ut to give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's and unto God that which is God's.
Take a look at your dollar bill: it is inscribed "United States of America"
People... We are a commonwealth... we as a people provide for things that we as individuals could not provide for ourselves.
I cannot build my own bridge across the East River, but fortunately somebody else has already built that bridge. Ought not I pay something to use and maintain it.
Ought I not pay something to bring my car into the city, a place that is already over crowded. More on this in a minute....
First, back to taxes... If you take all of the rich, and tax them heaivly... you will still not have enough money to accomplish the purposes for which taxes are collected. There just are not enough rich people to do that. But if you tax all of the "little-working-class-people" you will be able to raise that money, because there are enough people to build and provide the things that this city, state, and country needs.
Anything that you want provided for you, be it a bridge, a subway, a school, or social assistance must be paid for by sumbody... and mostly that is by the people who use the services. You want or need the service... you pay the tax.
Personally, I would not raise the taxes on the rich, so much as I would eliminate the loopholes. You can tax the rich at 90% and all they will do is find more loopholes, or move their money offshore. The Rich define what money is: and they can wiggle out from under any tax that you may try to impose, unless you make that tax FAIR and without loopholes.
Now then... Cars into Manhattan:
I'd not tax or toll the bridges: I'd CLOSE THEM! Busses and Trucks only... Pedestrians and LRVs across the Brooklyn, Subways and Busses only across the Manhattan, Buses Trucks and Taxis only across the Williamsburg and Queensboro. But before this can be done.... IMPROVEMENTS to MASS TRANSIT must occur to take up the load that will be shed from these crossings.
Elias
The city should do everything in its power to anger Brooklyn and Queens, so it will be pissed off just like Staten Island was a few years ago.
I have no objection to tolls IF the Bronx crossings are also tolled - It is outrageous that Bronxites will have free access to Manhattan at the expense of Brooklyn and Queens (at least SI has a free ferry).
BTW - I already fully support the secession and Re-incorporation of Long Island City...
NYC is a government of Manhattanites, by Manhattanites and for Manhattanites - the outer boroughs are worse than colonies.
BTW - I already fully support the secession and Re-incorporation of Long Island City...
IINM, LIC was never incorporated. BTW, neither is "New City" in Rockland County. New City is a hamlet; and so, I believe, was LIC.
NYC is a government of Manhattanites, by Manhattanites and for Manhattanites - the outer boroughs are worse than colonies.
Really? How do they manage that with less than a quarter of the population? The truth is that Manahattan subsidizes the rest of the city like the city does the state. We pay the piper while the bridge and tunnel crowd and the hicks from the sticks call the tune.
Really? How do they manage that with less than a quarter of the population?
How did the British and other colonial powers manage to control populations greater than their own?
When was the last time Queens was given a priority in snow plowing?
Why doesn't Queens have full subway coverage?
Why do local streets in Queens have the same draconian parking regulations that Manhattan has?
I can go on and on with this...
When was the last time a born and raised Queens resident was elected Mayor? - all I see are Manhattanites from Mayor Linseed thru Kroch, Dorkins, Ghuliani, and Wimpberg...
Seriously - I know LIC may never be free again - but I can dream, can't I ;-) I really do feel I live in a Manhattanite dictatorship and proposing tolls on Queens and Brooklyn while NOT proposing them on the Bronx confirms my feelings even more!
My point in all of this is that either EVERYONE in the city pays tolls - or NO-ONE should pay them... no ifs, ands, or buts...
Why do local streets in Queens have the same draconian parking regulations that Manhattan has?
Because the streets need to be cleaned, first this side and then the other. And if we didn't clean them, you would bitch at us for ignoring Queens.
When was the last time Queens was given a priority in snow plowing?
Because nobody lives or works there! (Sheesh!)
I'll bet you NORTH DAKOTA gets better street cleaning!
EVERYONE in the city pays tolls - or NO-ONE should pay them...
NOBODY should pay tolls, because there should be NO CARS allowed in the city!
(Hehehehehe........)
Elias
NOBODY should pay tolls, because there should be NO CARS allowed in the city!
At least, not in New York County.
When was the last time Queens was given a priority in snow plowing?
I have no idea; it hasn't snowed in a long time. One would hope that the limited resources would first be allocated where they provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people.
Why doesn't Queens have full subway coverage?
No borough has full subway coverage. In case you haven't noticed, no new subway lines have been built in any of the boroughs for decades, and since the 60's, the only new line segments completed have been in or connecting to Queens. It looks like Queens has been coming out ahead in this race.
As for planned and proposed subway construction, yes, it's mostly in Manhattan -- because it's the existing Manhattan subways that are most overburdened and because Manhattan has the population density that best supports subway lines. Which subway line proposal has the greatest bang for the buck? Nothing in Queens, I'm afraid.
Why do local streets in Queens have the same draconian parking regulations that Manhattan has?
They don't. Most if not all Manhattan streets without meters have alternate side two days per week on each side. Queens streets typically have it only one day per week on each side.
When was the last time a born and raised Queens resident was elected Mayor? - all I see are Manhattanites from Mayor Linseed thru Kroch, Dorkins, Ghuliani, and Wimpberg...
Apparently the voters, most of whom live outside Manhattan, have been repeatedly electing Manhattan residents as mayors, presumably because they think those Manhattan residents happen to be the best qualified candidates for the job. I think voting for someone based on borough of residence is silly, but if that's what you want to do, be my guest.
Seriously - I know LIC may never be free again - but I can dream, can't I ;-)
You may not like the result if your dream comes true, I'm afraid.
I really do feel I live in a Manhattanite dictatorship and proposing tolls on Queens and Brooklyn while NOT proposing them on the Bronx confirms my feelings even more!
Nobody's proposed tolls on boroughs. People have proposed tolls on river crossings, in particular the ones that have the worst traffic and are in need of the most expensive repair.
My point in all of this is that either EVERYONE in the city pays tolls - or NO-ONE should pay them... no ifs, ands, or buts...
Everyone who uses a toll facility pays tolls. Everyone who doesn't use a toll facility doesn't pay tolls. Tolls don't discriminate by place of residence.
Nobody's proposed tolls on boroughs. People have proposed tolls on river crossings, in particular the ones that have the worst traffic and are in need of the most expensive repair.
I know!! I just insist that if RIVER CROSSINGS between Queens and Manhattan are all tolled then ALL RIVER CROSSINGS between the Bronx and Manhattan should also be tolled. All outer borough residents should be treated EQUALLY - no ifs ands or buts...
By the way nothing I have said should be construed as an objection to tolls - I just want absolute equality amongst all boroughs.
(I just insist that if RIVER CROSSINGS between Queens and Manhattan are all tolled then ALL RIVER CROSSINGS between the Bronx and Manhattan should also be tolled. All outer borough residents should be treated EQUALLY - no ifs ands or buts...By the way nothing I have said should be construed as an objection to tolls - I just want absolute equality amongst all boroughs.)
I believe the following to be the case. The East River bridges were built by the city as toll bridges, with the tolls removed when the bonds were repaid. The city has now borrowed a few billion to rebuild them, so the city can reinstitute tolls to pay back the bonds without state permission (not sure Bloomy knows this).
The Bronx crossings were smaller and cheaper, and generally built without tolls. State permission WOULD BE required to toll them. The reconstruction of those bridges will also require big bucks.
Of course, given that the state is currently rebuilding every two lane bridge in Upstate NY, one wonders why these major pieces of regional infrastructure are still controlled by the city in any event.
The city has now borrowed a few billion to rebuild them, so the city can reinstitute tolls to pay back the bonds without state permission (not sure Bloomy knows this).
Tolling the East River bridges will not bring in any immediate revenue. Federal highway funds cannot be used for toll bridges. The monies spent under the Highway Bridge Rehabilitation Act, totalling nearly $2 billion, will have to be refunded to Uncle Sam. Federal funding for the projects currently in progress will cease.
I trust you will enjoy having only two tracks on the Manhattan Bridge.
The East River bridges were built by the city as toll bridges, with the tolls removed when the bonds were repaid.
Tolls were removed in 1910 by Mayor Gaynor. The bonds for the Manhattan and Queensboro Bridges, the only East River bridges built by the City after consolidation, were retired in 1956.
BTW, Mayor Gaynor also pushed through the Dual Contracts. He lived in his own house, like the present mayor. He did not take the subway or El to work at City Hall. He walked from his residence in Park Slope to City Hall, over the Brooklyn Bridge, every day.
(Tolls were removed in 1910 by Mayor Gaynor. The bonds for the Manhattan and Queensboro Bridges, the only East River bridges
built by the City after consolidation, were retired in 1956.
BTW, Mayor Gaynor also pushed through the Dual Contracts. He lived in his own house, like the present mayor. He did not take
the subway or El to work at City Hall. He walked from his residence in Park Slope to City Hall, over the Brooklyn Bridge, every
day. )
Is there any way we can dig him up, reanimate him, and re-elect him?
Is there any way we can dig him up, reanimate him, and re-elect him?
Why do you think somebody shot him? :-)
>>> Why do you think somebody shot him? <<<
It was probably just a foolish guess that someone who was mayor in 1910 was already decesed. :-)
Tom
Look, if things continue like they have and some real answers are needed, all you have to say is" THIS IS A JOB FOR MARK GREEN. I'm sure his expertise is just around the corner, and he won't needed any prodding to start expounding his knowledge on the problem at hand.
You are kidding, I hope.
>>Is there any way we can dig him up, reanimate him, and re-elect him?<<
They did - you know Strom Thurmond, don't you?
I think that placing tolls on the East River bridges would be a DUMB idea. The tolls will only create MORE traffic congestion and pollution. The tolls will not help to solve the city's fiscal crisis.
#3 West End Jeff
If they do it, they will restrict the bridges to EZ-Pass users. Instant end of congestion.
All outer borough residents are being treated equally.
If a $3 toll is instituted on the Queensboro Bridge, than anyone who drives across the Queensboro Bridge will pay the $3 toll. A Queens resident driving across the Queensboro Bridge pays $3. A Manhattan resident driving across the Queensboro Bridge pays $3. A Bronx resident driving across the Queensboro Bridge pays $3. A North Dakota resident driving across the Queensboro Bridge pays $3. The toll is a payment for a service, plain and simple.
So why not the Harlem River crossings? The East River crossings are usually mentioned first because they're longer, they're more expensive to maintain, and they have worse traffic. I wouldn't object to tolls on the Harlem River crossings either. Then again, I've openly advocated (electronic) tolls on all city streets.
The lack of a toll discriminates against all city taxpayers, especially those without cars. How? The bridges are maintained by NYCDOT, which receives most of its funding from local taxes. So someone who uses the bridge infrequently pays just as much for maintenance as someone who uses it every day -- and a city taxpayer who uses the bridge infrequently pays more for maintenance than someone from outside the city who uses it to cut across Manhattan every day.
A Bronx resident driving across the Queensboro Bridge pays $3.
But Bronx Residents will still be able to cross into Manhattan without a Toll - THAT is my objection!! The toll would discriminate against Queens and Brooklyn residents who wish to enter Manhattan. If Manhattan is the center of the city then ALL outer boroughs should have EQUAL access to it.
Now I would not object to a FREE Queens-Manhattan Ferry as a peace offering ;-)
Once again, residency has nothing to do with it. People who use a toll facility pay the toll; people who don't use a toll facility don't use the toll. It's a very simple concept.
Your position hinges on the fundamental right of free vehicular access to Manhattan to all NYC residents. There's only one problem: no such right exists.
Any bridge requires maintenance, and for a long bridge like the Queensboro that maintenance isn't cheap. Here's my question for you: Who do you think should pay for that maintenance? Keep in mind that most NYC households (yes, over 50%) don't own or lease cars.
Your position hinges on the fundamental right of free vehicular access to Manhattan to all NYC residents. There's only one problem: no such right exists.
Then perhaps we shouldn't be NYC residents - Anyone for a Queens Secession movement??
And I am not necessarily advocating free vehicular access - a free ferry like Staten Island has would also placate me ;-)
Keep in mind that most NYC households (yes, over 50%) don't own or lease cars
I'd like to know what the percentage of Queens Households is..
Secede. Be my guest. Take your bridge and your subways with you. Watch your taxes go up -- and ours drop.
The number in Queens is 34%. But that doesn't really matter, since the citywide number is 54%, and the entire city, including the 54% of households without cars, is funding the toll-free bridges equally. The bridges aren't free; the only question is whether its expenses are covered by those who use it or whether its expenses are largely covered by those who don't use it. I asked you before and I'll ask you again: which do you think makes more sense?
Well maybe we ought to puts toll booths up at the New York City line with Nassau and Westchester counties. Maybe we should put toll booths up at the Brooklyn Queens borders. Maybe we should put toll booths at W230 St., the actual border between Manhattan and the Bronx.
What difference does it make if it's a bridge or a street that connects 2 different jurisdictions. There are maintenance costs. I don't go from Manhattan to the Bronx, yet I have to pay for the maintenance of the streets connecting the 2 boroughs.
This arguement about maintewnance costs is moronic. Nobody should be tolled to go between 2 different parts of the same city. The tolls on the Whitestone, Throggs Neck, Triborough, Midtown, Verrazano and the Battery Tunnel are just as moronic.
It is so much better in the west where freeways are indeed freeways and any attempt to put tolls on these highways is met by derision.
Pliticians always forget they are supposed to heed the consent of the governed.
"Politicians always forget they are supposed to heed the consent of the governed."
The governed have directed politicians to put into place a lot of very expensive public services. Somehow these services have to be paid for. Funding must be some combination of taxes (everybody pays according to some formula whether they use the service or not) and user fees. Why should certain user fees be unacceptable if they correspond very directly to very expensive services?
Why should certain user fees be unacceptable if they correspond very directly to very expensive services?
Because everyone likes a free lunch?
Well maybe we ought to puts toll booths up at the New York City line with Nassau and Westchester counties. Maybe we should put toll booths up at the Brooklyn Queens borders. Maybe we should put toll booths at W230 St., the actual border between Manhattan and the Bronx.
Why would you suggest that? What has been proposed is tolls on expensive bridges, not tolls on borough lines. Yes, there happens to be a borough line down the middle of the East River, but if that borough line were to be moved for whatever reason, the need for tolls wouldn't change.
What difference does it make if it's a bridge or a street that connects 2 different jurisdictions. There are maintenance costs.
Of course there are, but those maintenance costs are much higher on the bridge.
I don't go from Manhattan to the Bronx, yet I have to pay for the maintenance of the streets connecting the 2 boroughs.
You do, and tolls on those shorter, cheaper bridges would be appropriate as well -- remember, I'm the one who's advocated e-tolling all city streets and either reducing taxes or using the tax money that had gone towards streets for something else -- but the East River bridges are much more maintenance-intensive than any other toll-free highway facilities in the city, so they're the obvious place to start.
This arguement about maintewnance costs is moronic. Nobody should be tolled to go between 2 different parts of the same city. The tolls on the Whitestone, Throggs Neck, Triborough, Midtown, Verrazano and the Battery Tunnel are just as moronic.
And who pays to maintain them, then?
Nothing in life is free. Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them? This is at least the third time I've asked this question in this thread and I have yet to see an answer. The entire question boils down to this. Please, someone, answer it.
It is so much better in the west where freeways are indeed freeways and any attempt to put tolls on these highways is met by derision.
Tolling some highways but not others inevitably leads to inequities. Toll them all and the problem is solved.
A freeway is a freeway regardless of its toll status. It's free from intersections and direct property access.
Pliticians always forget they are supposed to heed the consent of the governed.
The governed invariably ask for lots of stuff but don't want to pay for it. The politician can't do both. He can either find ways to cut services or find ways to increase funding.
Of course, he can ask the governed how they want to increase funding. In this case, in fact, New Yorkers prefer bridge tolls over other modes.
Of course, he can ask the governed how they want to increase funding. In this case, in fact, New Yorkers prefer bridge tolls over other modes.
Ahhh - the beauty of polls - I can also interpret the result as saying that 65% of Queens Residents prefer other alternatives rather than tolls.
All you have done is given me another example of Manhattanite manipulation...
Personally - I have no objection to tolls - I juat want to see them imposed on ALL Bronx-Manhattan crossings as well... Motorists in ALL Boroughs should feel the same pain.
Take four:
Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them?
Answer the question.
Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them?
Take four:
Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them?
Answer the question.
Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them?
I said repeatedly I have no objection to tolls.
My objection is that- Why should Queens residents pay for their bridge while the Manhattanite favorites in the Bronx won't have to pay for theirs??
Heck - threatening to secede got Staten Island a free ferry - it seems that is the only language that this city listens to!!
It also got Staten Islanders reduced tolls on the Verazzano. Perhaps residents of Brooklyn and Queens should get reduced tolls on the crossings into Manhattan.
If the Queensboro Bridge is tolled, then Queens residents who drive across the Queensboro Bridge will have to pay the toll -- but so will Bronx residents, Manhattan residents, and North Dakota residents who drive across the Queensboro Bridge. And Queens residents, Bronx residents, Manhattan residents, and North Dakota residents who don't drive across the Queensboro Bridge won't have to pay the toll.
Right now, all New Yorkers pay equally for the use of the Queensboro Bridge. Queens residents and Bronx residents alike. Drivers and non-drivers alike. A wee bit inequitable, don't you think?
I've said over and over that I wouldn't object to instituting tolls elsewhere -- in fact, I'd be very much in favor. The bridges that are the most congested and are the most expensive to maintain happen to be the ones over the East River, so they're the place to start.
Borough of residency has nothing to do with it, so you can stop bringing it up.
How about a truce - lets agree to disagree and end this debate.
Thanks :-)
Sounds good to me.
I think the problem is a practical one - the older bridges - Willy, Manny, 59th Street, and Brooklyn, plus most of the Harlem River crossings (except the Henry Hudson, Alex Hamilton and Triboro) all empty primarily onto local streets, which will become backed up with traffic should tolls be implemented. (Of the three remaining Harlem River bridges, the Triboro and Hudson charge tolls, and Hamilton's about a mile past the GWB and I think everyone will agree the last thing the cross bronx needs is a set of toll barriers!!! The smaller harlem river bridges probably don't carry enough traffic to make the installation of EZ Pass profitable, particularly if the toll is smaller than the $3.50 is for the "flagship" bridges andt he $1.75 for "secondary" bridges, though I might be wrong.)
Of course it could also be argued that the Holland, Lincoln, Midtown, and Battery Tunnels empty into local traffic on the Manhattan side. But the Holland and Lincoln only assess tolls eastbound, and on the NJ side. And the traffic capacity of the East River tunnels is significantly less than that of the East River bridges: 4 lanes in the midtown and battery tunnels vs. 6 lanes on Brooklyn, 7 on Manhattan, 8 on Willy and 59th Street.
Electronic tolls can be "collected" at full speed. They don't cause traffic congestion. On the contrary, they relieve traffic congestion, since some people will decide to take the subway rather than pay the toll.
Many of the costs in implementing E-ZPass have already been paid with the installation on the crossings that already use it. If enough E-ZPass equipment is ordered that it can be mass produced, the price per item drops.
Yeah but what about the people who don't have EZ pass? People from North Dakota, for example.
And I've never seen a "full speed" EZ pass booth. Most of them are 15 mph (if not 5 mph) with the exception of one at exit 6 on the turnpike, which is 45 mph, and it's almost twice as wide as a normal lane. Well, I guess for the BQE that is the nominal full speed.
"And I've never seen a "full speed" EZ pass booth. "
The EZPass speed limit is a function of the need to protect (and possibly overprotect) the safety of toll plaza workers. At the New Rochelle Plaza on the NE Thwy (one way toll only), the EZ Pass lanes never need to be crossed by humans, and so the speed limit is much higher. Probably also 45 (don't remember exactly).
There may also be union negotiations involves. Some systems in the NY area have a standard speed of 15, others 5. The Mass Pike has a higher speed (25?).
EZ-Pass like systems in Denver operate with cars passing the sensors at 50 mph.
That, and the fact that e-zpass cars have to merge with slow moving cash paying cars. The technology will work at 100mph.
>>> the EZ Pass lanes never need to be crossed by humans, and so the speed limit is much higher. Probably also 45 (don't remember exactly). <<<
In the Lexus lane of the Corona freeway here in California, they read the E-Z pass transponders at 65+ mph with no problems.
Tom
I covered your first question in another post. Basically, make it easy to get E-ZPass of some sort, and direct through traffic around the city. Over time, the E-ZPass network will spread, making this less and less of an issue.
Booths, by their nature, require low speed limits. Imagine driving through a tiny booth at full highway speed -- and then merging with the traffic that's just stopped to pay cash. The E-ZPass technology works at highway speeds; if the equipment is strung over the lanes without booths, and there's no concern about stopped traffic a few feet away in the cash lanes, there's no need to impose a low speed limit.
Keep an eye on the PIP approach to the GWB; the Port Authority plans to install a full-speed E-ZPass plaza there.
"Keep an eye on the PIP approach to the GWB; the Port Authority plans to install a full-speed E-ZPass plaza there."
As I mentioned in another post, there already are high speed EZPass
lanes on the left side of the New Rochelle tolls (tolls collected northbound only) on the NE Thwy.
>>and direct through traffic around the city. <<
Ooh, that poor Tappan Zee bridge...
The SI corridor (287/440/278 -> belt -> LI) is already at or above capacity. Trucks can't use the Belt, and have a hell of a time on the Goethals and Outerbridges (narrow lanes).
So unless some serious new infrastructure's going up soon to form a bypass of the city, this is not a workable option.
>>Imagine driving through a tiny booth at full highway speed -- <<
I've seen it, before the EZ pass speed crackdown :)
But I agree with your post and others about the EZ pass speed thing - it's mostly a traffic flow and safety issue, not technology.
Widening or building new highways in Staten Island and Westchester County is a lot cheaper and less disruptive than widening or building new highways in Manhattan and the Bronx. And a tolled highway might actually be able to pay for itself, solving the funding question.
A tolled highway? With free routes that are even shorter going through the city? Well I can tell you which route I'd use, except at peak hours (when the tolled highway is probably just as backed up as the free one anyway).
Not if the East River and Hudson River crossings into and out of Manhattan are priced properly.
Send the cars to Selkirk to cross the Hudson. What's good enough for the freight trains is good enough for private cars.
Staten Islanders do deserve a break - there's no direct rail service, and all they have is a ferry. They pay for subway or bus service once they get to Manhattan, and many riders on SIRTOA pay for that, though some do the walk-from-the-previous-stop trick.
So giving them a free ferry ride isn't so horrible.
Heck - threatening to secede got Staten Island a free ferry - it seems that is the only language that this city listens to!!
Now that Fresh Kills is closed, perhaps we should re-think that.
I'm the one who's advocated e-tolling all city streets
Sorry to jump in at such a late point on the discussion, but if you E-toll everything, what happens when a visitor come here (and we really want tourist or shoppers)? Do they get tickets? Do you tell them that the price of coming is that they must get a EZ-PASS (or similiar device)? To paraphrase some signs "Don't come here without it !!"
Only a tiny minority of visitors drive into the city. All most visitors will notice is the decrease in traffic congestion.
But for those visitors who do drive, customer service centers on major approaches to the city can rent prepaid E-ZPasses. (By cash or credit card, pay a deposit plus however much you expect to pay in tolls. When you return the tag, the deposit plus your remaining balance is refunded.)
Or do it the way Ontario does it: snap pictures of license plates and send out bills.
Incidentally, there's no charge for an E-ZPass obtained through the New York Service Center, so a visitor can also sign up in advance.
Boy - would there be a long wait.
More questions?
1 - How would you handle traffic on I-95 coming down from Connecticut going to New Jersey for people who don't get off the highway? Or vice versa? Having someone get off the highway for a half hour or more to get one and get off for a half hour to turn one in is ridiculous. The centers would need to be fully staffed 24x7x365.
If you do it on streets, you have some major problems.
1 - All of the construction will rip sensors to shreds.
2 - If too many sensors are placed what happens if someone is circling the block.
3 - What about residents? They get a break in parking garages, what about city streets, and crossings (as done in Rockaway)?
How would you handle traffic on I-95 coming down from Connecticut going to New Jersey for people who don't get off the highway? Or vice versa? Having someone get off the highway for a half hour or more to get one and get off for a half hour to turn one in is ridiculous. The centers would need to be fully staffed 24x7x365.
No, what's ridiculous is that long-distance traffic is routed through the densest city in the country. Reroute I-95 via I-287, either all the way around or down a New Jersey Turnpike northward extension (tunnelled in parts, if necessary).
Ultimately, I expect e-tolling to become ubiquitous. At that point, your concern goes away.
I'm a bit surprised that when the NYSDMV began phasing in the new license plates in 2001, they didn't come with E-ZPass tags as standard equipment.
All of the construction will rip sensors to shreds.
Not if it's overhead.
If too many sensors are placed what happens if someone is circling the block.
He'd be charged to circle the block. E-ZPass would also be used to charge for parking.
Tolls to drive and park on local streets wouldn't be very high (except in congestion), but too much damage has been done by the misconception that streets don't cost anything.
What about residents? They get a break in parking garages, what about city streets, and crossings (as done in Rockaway)?
Nope. Anybody who doesn't want to pay the cost of using a car in NYC has the option of not using a car in NYC. That's the choice 54% of NYC households make in any case.
Most of what you say is true, but you can't do anything if it is not a least 99.999% accurate. The less accurate-the more people will contest the charges. They do it now for parking fines (the meter was fast), moving violations (the radar gun must be proved to be correct or the fine is thrown out). People call to get tiny charges removed from phone bills (I was disconnected, bad connection etc).
You must also keep in mind that if business get hit with higher fees for trucks making deliveries, then residents will have to bear the burden. You don't want to drive too may out or you will loose even more money when people and business leave and you have less taxes being paid.
Another thing, how long would you think that it would take to get the sensors in place and the software working. 460 stations took years just to install and get working. Would you do just a few locations at once. If so then people will flock to other routes to get to their destination unless the time difference is very large. I've seen long lines of people trying to use the Willis Avenue Bridge to the Bronx instead of the Triboro because it is free.
Of course there are problems to be worked out. That doesn't make the idea a bad one. No, I don't have all the answers.
Remember that, if the streets are tolled, then other revenue sources don't need to pay for the streets. If taxes drop when tolls are instituted, a lot of people -- most notably, the average carless New Yorker -- will come out ahead. Yes, some people will end up losing money in the deal, and they may be inclined to leave the city -- but they were a drain on the city's resources before, so why should the city mind if they leave? The same goes for businesses.
It would certainly take a long time to install all the equipment, and, as you point out, it probably would be a bad idea to toll some streets but not others in the interim. So keep the equipment turned off (or run it in a test mode) until everything's installed, and then turn it all on at once.
You must also keep in mind that if business get hit with higher fees for trucks making deliveries, then residents will have to bear the burden. You don't want to drive too may out or you will loose even more money when people and business leave and you have less taxes being paid.
Delivery charges need not go up. Trucks already pay much higher flat rate fees and taxes, some of which might be reduced when usage fees are introduced. In many cases, rail freight can replace part of the trucking. In any case, things cost what they cost; the question is who pays.
Or do it the way Ontario does it: snap pictures of license plates and send out bills.
I'll go for that... I never have received a bill from my trip on the tollway in July!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, there happens to be a borough line down the middle of the East River
INCORRECT. The borough line is on the Royal Island side of the East River, as a result New York City collected all of the revenues from the many ferries that once crossed the East River as the piers at both ends were in New York.
So the East River is New York-occupied.
Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them?
The people who use them. I believe the East River bridges should be tolled but I do not believe bridges entirely within one city should have a toll. If a body of water is wide enough to have a tolled bridge, it is TOO WIDE to be entirely within one city.
If a body of water is wide enough to have a tolled bridge, it is TOO WIDE to be entirely within one city.
Good point.
Who should pay for the bridges, the people who use them or the people who don't use them?
You use them even if you don't cross them.
You purchase merchandice that crosses them.
People who serve you in other businesses cross them.
Your neighbors who buy from your shop cross them to get to their jobs.
The whole city benefits from the bridges, even if you don't cross them yourself.
However, tolls and other policies to keep private vehicles out of Manhattan are appropriate.
Elias
Very little of my merchandise comes from across the East River. The little that does comes on trucks that each hold similar merchandise for hundreds of others. I will gladly split the truck toll with those hundreds of others (which is exactly what will happen when the toll gets rolled into prices), but I will also gladly split the savings earned when the truck doesn't have to sit in as many traffic jams. My usage of the bridge (for deliveries) is far less than the usage of the bridge by a daily SOV commuter; I should pay less than he does.
Most people who serve me in other businesses and most of my neighbors who buy from my shop take the subway.
I'm not suggesting that the bridges be torn down. I'm asking that the people who get the most use out of the bridges also put the most into maintaining them.
>>> I'm not suggesting that the bridges be torn down. I'm asking that the people who get the most use out of the bridges also put the most into maintaining them. <<<
It follows logically that subway passengers should have to pay tolls for crossing the East River on either bridges or through tunnels too (a bridge/tunnel surcharge on their fares). After all, they are the ones using those crossings. Not very practical though.
Tom
Agreed, it's not very practical. If the subway had variable fares, they could take river crossings into account. It doesn't, and even without the political hurdles I don't see a way around the pragmatic hurdles. (An appropriate surcharge would probably be on the order of a few cents, while the toll for a car would be a few dollars.)
The MTA should pay the City an annual fee for using the bridges for subway traffic and build the cost into the fare structure. Same thing for bus companies.
A freeway is a freeway regardless of its toll status. It's free from intersections and direct property access.
While I agree with 99% of what you have said, I believe that in the strictest sense, a freeway is defined as a highway w/o tolls while a turnpike is one that has tolls. In any case, this is a side issue. When money is tight and more is needed, the first place to look should be elimination of free rides.
Not according to AASHTO. A freeway is a controlled access road with no cross traffic. Some freeways charge tolls; others don't.
In some parts of the country, popular usage differs from the AASHTO usage. Here in New York, we simply don't have freeways at all (in popular speech).
Very interesting. I never knew there was such a difference in usage.
Just out of curiosity, I looked in Webster's, which shows the AASHTO usage as the first definition and mine as the second.
>>This arguement about maintewnance costs is moronic. Nobody
should be tolled to go between 2 different parts of the same city.<<
So you should be able to drive your smog box on tax financed streets/bridges and I who use transit should pay a fare every time I travel in the city but whatever taxes I pay also pay for the streets you use yet you do not support freeing the transit?
The number in Queens is 34%. But that doesn't really matter, since the citywide number is 54%
Herein Lies the problem - the City couldn't care less about this borough's special needs - and this is why me AND my neighbors feel very alienated from City Hall... If I spoke about secession 20 years ago - no-one would listen to me (heck I wouldn't even have spoken like this for that matter) - now most of my neighbors would be very receptive to any group calling for it. And it isn't just about tolls on bridges - there really is an ever growing feeling out there that the City government doesn't care about us. The general consensus is that Local government would be more receptive to local needs.
In which areas is Queens not getting its fair share?
The general consensus is that Local government would be more receptive to local needs.
Oh, Ok, *now* I get it!
Instead of Manhattan charging a toll for cars to enter Manhattan, we will let Queens charge a toll for cars to enter Queens!
: )
Now that poor forgotten underserved boro will be happy and joyful once again!
: ) Elias
Great idea. Of course, Queens County will have to assume the expense of maintaining the bridges from the tolls collected..
If Manhattan is the center of the city then ALL outer boroughs should have EQUAL access to it.
Hey, if you want Queens to be "the center of the city" -- whatever that means -- that's OK with me. As for "equal access," maybe we should shorten the bridges over the East River to the same length as those over the Harlem River. In any event, I'm not really sure what New York gets for subsidizing Queens and would be just as happy if Queens County were outside the City.
Hey, what is IINM?
I know IIRC, but that lost me...
>>> what is IINM <<<
IIRC it means If I'm Not Mistaken.
Tom
IINM, LIC was never incorporated. BTW, neither is "New City" in Rockland County. New City is a hamlet; and so, I believe, was LIC.
You are mistaken.
Long Island City was not a hamlet, it was a fully incorporated city from 1870 to 1898, just like Brooklyn and New York. Its eastern boundary was approximately 50th Street.
I would love to city Queens Suceed from the city and become part of the state. Maybe then queens can get back to being part of the suburbs. That would blow for the city because Queens has both of the airports as well. We can start calling in Queens County and have little cities within..
Jamaica, Queens Village, Hollis, Spring Field Gardens, Rosedale, Laurleton, Cambria Heights, Rochdale Village, etc...
I'm sorry, I was just dreaming..
Frnak D
I live in Queens and I don't want us to secede from the city, and I don't know anyone outside these two who wants to secede.
So that's a nay. We're part of NYC.
:-) Andrew
Here's the thing. The tolls on the MTA bridges and tunnels go to pay for MTA public transit much more than for the maitenance of the bridges and tunnels. I actually agree with it in principle. But then they toll mainly those drivers who do not have a decent transit alternative, those going from Queens to the Bronx, and thus also from Long Island to Westchester or upstate or New England, and those going between Brooklyn and Staten Island, thus also those going between Long Island and states to the south and west.
Ideally the tolls should be on the bridges and tunnels going to and from Manhattan, all the bridges and tunnels going to and from Manhattan, and only those bridges. The subways and regional railroads provide a reasonable alternative for them. But those bridges going between outer boroughs should be free, or at least a lot cheaper than they are.
That is, ideally that should be so. But in practice this is a very tricky proposition. The Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queensboro Bridges were definitely not designed with tollbooths in mind. I can't imagine the kinds of backups you'd get on the mostly surface streets that serve as the approaches, and what it would do to the neighborhoods.
:-) Andrew
Washington State Voters will be voting on Initiative 776....part of which will severly affect public transit funds.
--SOUND TRANSIT: Repeals the .3 percent local car-tab tax levied by Sound Transit in parts of King, Pierce and Snohomish counties. The owner of a car valued at $20,000 would save $60 per year. Sound Transit estimates it would lose about 20 percent of its budget, or $699 million over several years. Backers of the regional agency say it would be gutted, slashing service on express buses, Sounder trains and planned light-rail systems
West coast subtalkers......are people fighting against this?
I don't know how "the owner of a $20,000 car would save $20 per year"....
Car registrations in washington are a flat $35.00 -- have been so for about four years now.
>>> Car registrations in washington are a flat $35.00 -- have been so for about four years now. <<<
Similarly, the registration fee is a flat amount in California also (currently $28.00 per C.V.C. § 9250(a)), but as you well know, various taxes, some based on the value of the vehicle are collected at the same time. Perhaps Washington does the same thing.
Tom
I didn't word it properly...the ENTIRE cost of annual vehicle fees is a flat $35.00 in Washington. That's EVERYTHING, unlike the totals we pay down here that are based on vehicle value. Just like Oregon, costs one flat $35.00 per year per vehicle for the renewals.
Washington used to charge the same way California does -- but so many people were going "south of the border" (i.e. the Columbia River...) to Oregon and registering their vehicles there at relatives' addresses, etc., to avoid the high WA fees. And WA was quite aggressive about checking on Oregon plates they'd see regularly -- relatives of mine live 70 miles west of Seattle; they moved from central Oregon. Within three days of their move, they were stopped by the local sheriff because they still had OR plates!! (Of course, in a town of 4,400 people, those yellow plates they had stuck out like a sore thumb.)
You should see the look on clients' faces when I tell them that it's illegal to drive in NY with an out-of-state license after you've been living here for a few months. Everyone wants to wait until the old license is about to expire.
>>> You should see the look on clients' faces when I tell them that it's illegal to drive in NY with an out-of-state license after you've been living here for a few months <<<
California used to allow immigrants to keep the old license plates till they expired, now require plates within 30 days of establishing residence.
In 1963 when I was going from Europe to California, I picked up my car on the docks in New Jersey, obtained a New Jersey driver's license using a cousin's address and New Jersey plates. I did not want to drive across the country with no valid driver's license and German license plates. When I got to California, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that I did not have to replace the plates for a whole year. They did require that I get a California driver's license immediately when I went to court after making a prohibited left turn.
Tom
New Jersey's that way too. We have a rather funny situation since we maintain dual residence (North Carolina / New Jersey) - as a result, I carry a New Jersey driver's license and my pickup is registered in New Jersey, while my wife carries a North Carolina driver's license and her car is registered in North Carolina, as well as my van. Keeps everyone happy that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I carry a New Jersey driver's license and my pickup is registered in New Jersey, while my wife carries a North Carolina driver's license and her car is registered in North Carolina, as well as my van. Keeps everyone happy that way. <<<
Any problems filing joint income tax returns? It would be even more complicated if one of the states were a community property state like California. California taxes non residents on income earned in California but taxes residents on all income earned anywhere. As a community property state it imputes the earnings of one spouse to the other, each having an undivided half of the other's earnings. An interesting problem arises when both spouses earn, but one does not live in California. (There's no business like show business.)
Tom
Any problems filing joint income tax returns?
No, since we file only in New Jersey (I have been the sole wage earner in the family for the last 24 years). What little unearned income my wife has wouldn't be taxed in North Carolina if we did file separately so they don't care, and New Jersey says that we must file the state the same as the federal return. And so far New Jersey hasn't questioned my claiming a dependent who is not a New Jersey resident (he's off my tax return after this year anyway, but I do pay all his bills - still - although I'm running out of patience).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It would be even more complicated if one of the states were a community property state like California. California taxes non residents on income earned in California but taxes residents on all income earned anywhere. As a community property state it imputes the earnings of one spouse to the other, each having an undivided half of the other's earnings.
Every state with an income tax will tax a resident on all income earned anywhere, although it will allow a credit for income taxes paid to other states.
You should see the look on clients' faces when I tell them that it's illegal to drive in NY with an out-of-state license after you've been living here for a few months. Everyone wants to wait until the old license is about to expire.
I moved to New York in 1997 and continued to drive on my Connecticut license until it expired in 2001.
I bet you never had occasion to show your license to a traffic cop in that period.
It's the same thing here in California. We still get a lot of transplants from everywhere else, and they all think it's legal to drive until their old plates expire.
Just don't get caught.....
They have ways of figuring out approximately when you entered the state for residency, and they issue a citation for unregistered vehicle, and then prorate your plates back to the day you entered!! Most of the time, DMV just asks when you entered, when you're getting CA plates, and most people are stupid enough to say, POh last May" or something like that. Been behind too many of these people in line at DMV and heard it all!!
I don't know how "the owner of a $20,000 car would save $20 per year"....
Car registrations in washington are a flat $35.00 -- have been so for about four years now.
The statewide license tab fee is $35 per year. The ballot proposal in question would repeal a supplemental fee charged in the Seattle metro area.
Washington used to have a motor vehicle excise tax that was quite burdensome. Some people were paying several hundred dollars a year. There was a vote to repeal it, but the courts tossed out the vote on a technicality (transit worker unions were the main opponents of the repeal). The legislature realized that voters were hopping mad about the tax, however, and passed legislation killing it off.
Washington used to have a motor vehicle excise tax that was quite burdensome. Some people were paying several hundred dollars a year.
North Carolina has the same thing, except they call it "personal property tax". It varies based on the municipality; in the pricier parts of the state it can easily top 2% of average retail value, which means that the owner of a new minivan will pay over $500 and the owner of a new Mercedes SUV over $1000. Fortunately for me, our tax rate is about $1.05/$100 and most of my vehicles are old... I paid about $170 on my daughter's 2000 Taurus SEL this year, and that's the most expensive car in the fleet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have no sympathy for someone who buys a Mercedes SUV and then argues about the tax for using it.
I have a problem in principle with personal property taxes. They represent an ongoing value-based tax on something I've already bought and paid for. In North Carolina, for example, I've already paid a "vehicle use tax" - a euphemism for sales tax, except that it's also charged on vehicles being brought into the state that someone moving in already owns and may have already paid sales tax on - when I purchased the car, and now I'm taxed at an exorbitant rate again every year. So, while I'll never own a Mercedes, I don't think I should be penalized (more than I already am by the sales tax) for buying a nicer, more comfortable car (think Crown Vic LX instead of Focus GL). Effectively, I'm being taxed three times instead of twice on that money - first is the income tax, next is the sales tax, and then the personal property tax - and I don't like it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"They represent an ongoing value-based tax on something I've already bought and paid for."
You paid for the car, but not for the effect of its use (pollution, use of the road, congestion caused by a lot of people who, like you in this hypothetical, bought it). This, in fairness, demands that you also help support alternate, less environmentally harmfuyl means of transport (mass transit, bike lanes etc) to compensate for this damage.
"I've already paid a "vehicle use tax" - a euphemism for sales tax, except that it's also charged on vehicles being brought into the state that someone moving in already owns and may have already paid sales tax on"
But you haven't paid for the services the state DMV must provide for you. In addition "when I purchased the car, and now I'm taxed at an exorbitant rate again every year."
Exhorbitant is in the value of the beholder. I see nothing wrong with a higher use tax on a luxury vehicle. Don't want to pay the tax on a Lincoln? Buy a Ford Taurus instead - it's cheaper, and you can use the money you saved to load the Taurus with all the optional stuff. It's still your choice.
This "double-payment" concept you bring up is really a misnomer. It's an appropriately segmented payment (which can be tweaked up or down) to pay for different services you get.
What you advocate actually lets you off scot-free for things the rest of us have pay to subsidize you.
You paid for the car, but not for the effect of its use (pollution, use of the road, congestion caused by a lot of people who, like you in this hypothetical, bought it).
I pay for those every time I pull up to the gas pump. A significant percentage of what I pay there - in some jurisdictions, over 50% - goes to the Highway Trust Fund or some such, which is used not only to pay for roads but also for mass transit.
But you haven't paid for the services the state DMV must provide for you.
Sure I have... I pay that every year when I renew my registration (that's a per-vehicle tax, irrespective of the value of the vehicle, which is as it should be - it costs as much to process the paperwork for a $500 car as for a $500,000 one), plus a portion of the fee that I pay to the private operator for state inspection goes back to the state to cover their expenses associated with that (North Carolina, unlike New Jersey, doesn't have state-run inspection stations).
This "double-payment" concept you bring up is really a misnomer. It's an appropriately segmented payment (which can be tweaked up or down) to pay for different services you get.
Wrong. I get exactly the same services from the government if I'm driving a $500 car or a $500,000 one. Different services (or level of service) come into play with insurance (obviously I'm getting more benefit - or potential benefit - if I have collision coverage on a $500,000 car than if I have the same coverage on a $500 one, so it stands to reason that I would pay more for it) but not when it comes to the DMV. Since the weight of the vehicle does impact the highway department's costs - the heavier the vehicle the more stress on the road - a weight-based registration fee is not inappropriate, and most states have it, at least to the extent that commercial trucks pay significantly higher fees based on weight; thirty years ago New York State also had weight-based registration for passenger cars, although I don't know if that still holds true. North Carolina does not. Unfortunately, the weight-based fees aren't nearly high enough, given that the effect of vehicle weight on highway wear goes up exponentially rather than linearly.
What you advocate actually lets you off scot-free for things the rest of us have pay to subsidize you.
Wrong, Ron. No one's subsidizing me. Rather, I'm subsidizing the trucking industry (and probably a bunch of other groups as well) every time I pay those taxes. And I don't like it one bit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Clarifying one point... North Carolina does not have weight-based registration for passenger cars... they do for commercial trucks, at least to some extent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where do I begin?
Ron: You paid for the car, but not for the effect of its use (pollution, use of the road, congestion caused by a lot of people who, like you in this hypothetical, bought it).
Anonymous: I pay for those every time I pull up to the gas pump. A significant percentage of what I pay there - in some jurisdictions, over 50% - goes to the Highway Trust Fund or some such, which is used not only to pay for roads but also for mass transit.
Wrong. Some of those dollars go to mass transit (how much depends where); some goes to road repair, but it doesn't even begin to cover the environmental damage a gas-guzzler does to our air (and water).
"Wrong. I get exactly the same services from the government if I'm driving a $500 car or a $500,000 one."
Nonsense. All of us have to breathe the same air and you're polluting more of it driving your SUV than I am hopping on a subway train, or a bus, or driving a 30 mpg Ford Focus. Pollute more, pay more.
And then there's the cost of maintaining access to oil fields. That's why the US deploys armies to places like Iraq and Saudi Arabia. You're benefitting from that more than I am. Why shouldn't you pay what you owe? I'm subsidizing you there.
"Wrong, Ron. No one's subsidizing me. Rather, I'm subsidizing the trucking industry (and probably a bunch of other groups as well) every time I pay those taxes. And I don't like it one bit."
You're half-wrong. You're subsiding the truckers, and I'm subsidizing you.
You're right -- but how does this justify a recurring fee based on the value of the car, rather than a fee based on, say, the weight of the car? Of the costs that a motorist doesn't cover, which ones vary in proportion to the value of the car?
David, you're right... a fee based on the weight of the vehicle is not inappropriate. I stated that in my post but Ron chose to ignore it. And it doesn't cost any more to process the paperwork for a $500 car than it does for a $500,000 one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Connecticut's also got a personal property tax on motor vehicles, and it too can be very burdensome. Every now and then there are proposals to repeal it, but the municipalities start crying poormouth and nothing happens. Meanwhile, many people register cars out-of-state to avoid the tax; proof of this can be seen in the suspiciously high number of cars with Vermont license plates on Connecticut roads.
Might it have something to do with confusion over the proliferation and overlap of transit agencies?
For years, each county in the Puget Sound region (Pierce, King, and Snohomish) has had its own transit provider. Now a fourth agency comes in with a "regional" scope, levies taxes, and hires the other three to operate what had been THEIR OWN express bus routes! What's up with that?
I think the idea behind Sound Transit and it's ST Express busses is that it consolidates the express bus service for the commuters from Pierce and Snohomish counties. Then, as it works on the Link LRT system, ST can drop the express busses and make people catch the Link, or possibly the Sounder to Seattle instead of the busses. It is worthy to note that only one ST Express bus, the 550 Bellevue-Seattle Express, uses the Bus Tunnel in downtown Seattle. I believe this to be becuase they have all manner of plans to kick the busses out and run their LRT right through the tunnel in their place, clogging the streets with all the busses currently using the tunnel. Undoubtedly Seattle Metro is none too happy to be getting kicked out of the Bus tunnel, but is keeping it's peace becuase City Hall is all for Sound Transit and the Link. As such they're telling Metro and the Elevated Transit Committee to shut their holes.
Sound Transit really is spending most of it's money on it's damn light rail project. That is probably the biggest drain on their finances right now, after that, maybe the Sounder service to the North, and the few more stations that need to be added to the south. If I was living in Snohomish county, I would be screaming for somebody's head about now. They're getting royally screwwed by Sound Transit, all their getting is the same damn bus service that they've had for years, and in a few years 3 commuter rail stops spread between some 50 miles alongside Puget Sound. They are not even equated into the LINK plans, which will stop at Northgate, in King county and is complete BS. You cannot know bad traffic until you have seen I-5 completely bumper to bumper NORTH OF EVERETT! Those people up there aren't gonna see an ounce of help from Sounder, even though as yet they don't contribute anything either, but they most certainly will be inconvienced when the Link kicks the Bredas and MANs out of the tunnel and suddenly all of the CBD in Seattle is Bus and Car traffic, all so less than 10,000 riders (never mind what unSound Transit says) from Pierce county can have faster access to Seattle.
I also don't like the idea the the "Tacoma Link" gets those Skoda Low Floor cars, while they keep showing Seattle's "Central Link" with damn Bombardier high floor vehicles. Why in the hell should the ultimate also-ran city in the world get the LF cars, while Seattle, arguably the New York of the west (alright, maybe behind LA and SF), gets the older, outdated and non-ADA compliant cars? The only reason that I can think of is that they're gonna make the Central Link something along the lines of St Louis' Metrolink and LA's Red and Green lines, with high floor cars serving high platform stations. Of course if they do this, then it guarantees that the busses will not run in the tunnel, despite Metro's wishes to the contrary, unless somebody can come up with a Trap for busses.
BTW, you left out Kitsap Transit and the Washington State Ferries, both are sizeable transit operations in their own right. And, like the commuters north of Everett, although they contribute nothing to Sound Transit, they will certainly get screwwed by them. Sound Transit took the funding out of the fourth Jumbo MkII Ferry, and now we'll see how WSF's new plans to replace the 3 50 year old Evergreen State class (as little as 7 years from a mediocre overhaul) and 4 80 year old (actually only 20 years from last REALLY good Complete overhaul) Steel Electric class ferries with 4 new slightly larger boats. Can you say "Fleet Downsizing"?
Sound Transit really is spending most of it's money on it's damn light rail project. That is probably the biggest drain on their finances right now, after that, maybe the Sounder service to the North, and the few more stations that need to be added to the south.
I don't find that surprising. Light rail is working quite well in Portland, Salt Lake City, and Denver, among other places, and to the Sound Transit managers it really may look like the wave of the future. Seattle's geography and large Downtown job base makes it more conducive to transit that most other Sun Belt cities. Light rail's proven success elsewhere is hard to ignore.
>>> Seattle's geography and large Downtown job base makes it more conducive to transit that most other Sun Belt cities <<<
One could never mistake Seattle for a Sun Belt city. :-)
Tom
I could not disagree more, Seattle is a horrible place for any kind of rail. Really the only place that you can realistically run any kind of train is out the north and south side, and then those become very hilly with densly populated valleys (especially to the north), which leads to the situation that we have now, BNSF winding its way off Elliot Bay's western shore, then heading inland, between Queen Anne hill and Magnoilia through interbay, across the Chittenden Locks, and then out past Shoreline and up along the shore of Puget Sound to Everett. The grades up out of Ballard would be quite stiff, even for a Light Rail Vehicle.
Really the only solution that I have seen is the plan to extend to build a brand new Monorail system. Most people immediately think of the Newark Monorail, which is a complete POS, but in reality, the Monorails that were built for Seattle back in 1962 are capable of 50+ mph, and reached 60 on the test track in Cologne, Germany. These things are the perfect vehicle for Seattle. They are completely off the ground, which eliminates the worry of accidents, and also people parking on the ROW, they keep the busses in the Bus Tunnel, which keeps traffic off the street. They have a narrow guideway, rather than massive ballast filled Elevated structures, which keeps the street below the Monorail viable from a real estate perspective, and all stations could not help but be ADA compliant, all you need is an elevator up to the platform, and you've got it, just like a subway, so long as you don't do something as stupid as Westlake Center, with it's massive gapfillers and narrow side to side clearance.
Light Rail really is a has-been solution, what any system in the planning stages needs to do is look at alternatives, from Maglev and Monorail, to BRT or possibly a Bus Tunnel. Obviously Maglev is still a little ways off, we'll see how Old Dominion's does, and BRT is really just as imperfect as Light Rail, with similar problems. Heavy Rail subways and Bustunnels are another possiblity, but those incure massive delays due to streets torn up and so on. Plus there is the problem of Man-Sewers as FreeWayMonorail.com puts it, people of New York, at least those that post here are probably acclimated to the subway, and don't notice it. But it was documented in LA after the installation of the Red line and the Blue Line terminal. To the people at FreewayMonorail.com, it would be better to be in a Monorail, cruising above the traffic, with a view, than to be ducking under it, confined to a small car, with nothing to look at.
WHY would anyone approve this?? Cheap bastards which want to screw transit to save a HUGE $60... I don't believe this....
It's ignorant nonsense and selfishness, combined with snobbery, in places where people haven't yet fet the full effect of sprawl, pollution, congestion. It would be nice if some of that could be prevented.
Oh, Seattle is feeling the full effect of sprawl. All the damn California transplants are buying their mansions out by Issaquah, up around Anacortes, or out on Whidbey Island, only to find that they're right back where they started in LA, 70 miles from the CBD with a 2 hr commute both ways ahead of them. Or worse, for the idiots that thought that Whidbey would be a nice place to live, it's literally another hour at least as 2 ferry boats, usually the Cathlamet and Kittias carry residents across 1200 pax and 130 cars at time between Mukilteo and Clinton. Admittedly, this will be relived somewhat when Sounder service reaches Mukilteo, and hopefully people start leaving cars at a Parking lot at Clinton, taking the ferry across to Mukilteo, then riding Sounder south to King St Station in Seattle. However, even then most of the service will still be to the south of Seattle, with Everett, Mukilteo and Edmonds, the only three stations north of Seattle's CBD, seeing only like 3 trains a day both ways, far from enough to carry all that the Ferries can transport across. It's even worse in Issaquah, their not gonna see anything, not even Link, for them it's ST Express busses, which will undoubtedly get caught in traffic on the I-90 or 520 floating bridges across Lake Washington, no matter how many HOV lanes there are. And, of course, since they are ST express busses, they stay on the street in Seattle rather than heading for the bus tunnel, which exposes them to all kinds of traffic, and thus delays.
Sorry for getting carried away, every time I start talking about unSound Transit, I get REALLY REALLY angry, but the point remains that Suburban Sprawl is well underway in Seattle, they're feeling it, and it's only gonna get worse as things go on. All I can hope is that some of the Dot-Bombs sent a few California Transplants packing back to LA LA land, so when I move back it won't be $300,000 for a hovel on the south side of Seattle.
Hey, I hear you.
Isn't Whidbey Island a naval air station? Seattle is near where US Navy boomers are moored.
Sounds like a little of San Diego's problem: a sleepy Navy town now outgrowing its infrastructure.
>>> a sleepy Navy town now outgrowing its infrastructure <<<
I don't think Seattle was ever a sleepy Navy town. It started as a trading center for fur trappers, and became a jumping off point for those going to Alaska for the ‘98 gold rush. It is said that Seattle mined the miners. After that, it won a contract to build the U.S.S. Nebraska, and of course Boeing was a major defense contractor during WWII. Although the area made a great deal of money from the armed forces, it was not dependent on active duty military payrolls to the extent San Diego was.
Tom
The whole Puget Sound area is very close to the perfect naval base, a single well secured entrance (there are others, but they're very shallow and narrow, not the kind of thing that a Russian Sub captain would ever even think of trying). As such Seattle really is the center of one massive base, which just happens to have other people living in and around it, so yes you are correct, in the 1950s and up until the late 1980s, it was the Navy and Boeing that kept Seattle alive, at least until Gatesware came out.
Whidbey Island is home to Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, which for years was home to all the Pacific fleet's A-6 Intruder bombers and EA-6B Prowler electronic countermeasures planes. Now with the last of the A-6Es gone about 7-8 years ago, some P-3s have taken up housing there (or maybe they were always there I just kept missing them). I can remember driving along a road, passing behind some hangars and there would be line after line of Intruders, sitting on the tarmac. There's a good deal more to Whidbey Island than just the Base, although that was for years the driving force behind the development of Oak Bank, a sizeable town just south of the base with a few multi-story Apartment buildings. The entire island south of Coupeville (a yuppified touristy old fishing village) is very rural, with a growing number of Mansions for the california transplants and the gatesware millionaire club. Just southwest of Coupville (which is on the Inland, eastern side) is Ft Casey, a spanish american era fort, and one could claim, the first of many military forces on the island, it paired with it's counterparts across the Admiralty Inlet Ft. Townsend and Ft. Flagler, protected the deep water passage from invading fleets up until WWII, forceing them into the waters of Deception Pass, whose swirling currents make the Hells Gate look like kiddie pool. The base is actually like all the way north on the island, right south of Deception Pass, and can be seen from the rock beach that is right there. Last summer I had one hell of a time climbing on rocks, avoiding the freezing surf, and still watching the two or three EA-6B Prowlers on touch and go practice or something.
Moving just east from there, there is Everett, which has proably the second biggest naval base behind Bremerton. Everett is nearly brand new, opened in 1989 or something, and right now a CVBG is based out of there, like 1 CVN, a pair of cruisers or so, maybe 3 or 4 destroyers, at least two of them Guided missile, the other one a Spruance class DD, and maybe 2 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates. The base is BEAUTIFUL, with the BNSF/AMTK line to Vancouver (the line to Stevens Pass turns off just south of there) running right next to it. Last summer (which I suppose I should point out is summer '01[i.e just before Septemer 11 2001], not summer '02, which some might think), I got a ride on the USS Milius DDG-69 out of Everett for the parade of ships in for SeaFair '01. If you're ever in Seattle around the end of July, begining of August, definitely look into it, it's free, other than transportation to and from the dock(about 30 bucks), I think they'll keep doing it, but I'm not sure. The Ride is MAGNIFICENT! You are on possibly one of the most beautiful bodies of water anywhere, Olympics to the west, Cascades to the East, and in the foreground the BNSF/AMTK line to Chicago and Vancouver with BNSF freights, the Cascades, and the Empire Builder. You haven't lived until you have glimpsed a talgoed Cascade gliding along the Sound through the "Big Eyes" (basically 2 telescopes side by side), with it's green and white profile reflected in the glassy early morning waters (we had to be there at 5:30, since we were the first boat out, carrier people didn't have to be there until 11:30, we got to Seattle Pier 90 at 2:30 or so, that's nine hours to go 40 miles or so).
Moving south, we get to Seattle itself, which actually has no military base persay, but often hosts visiting warships from the US fleet, as well as many other countries. I remember a Portuguese Tall Ship, several Japanese ships, including a couple of warships, and an Austrailian Destroyer, usually I think these came into pier 70, which is right at the north end of the Waterfront Trolley line. Further south, around the Duamish River delta area, there is the area where the Carriers put up when their in, it's basically a Container Dock most of the time, but they put up a gangplank and call it a carrier dock when there is a visiting carrier. Just west of there, out on a good sized island is where the US Coast Guard's Icebreakers are now kept, they used to be kept right along the Alaskan Way (which is the big grey double decker along the waterfront), but were moved at somep point. Usually you can see the Healy, Polar Star, or Polar Sea in for refit(I think that this place is Todd Shipyards) in the off season from the south side of a WSF ferry heading into and out of Pier 52, Seattle's main terminal.
Out to the West, on the far western side of the Kitsap Penninsula, is the Boomer base for the Pacific Fleet, Bangor Naval Base. I never made it out there, the closest I got was the Ferry Terminal at Winslow, Bainbridge Island, which is just east of the Kitsap Penninsula. They do offer base tours and stuff, but I dropped my plans for that when I heard about the ride on the CVBG from Everett. I have heard that the guards are Marines (because of the plethora of high yield nuclear arms and other sensative stuff), and you DO NOT screw with them.
Finally, just south of there, kittycorner to bangor, on the eastern side of the Kitsap is Bremerton NSY, one of the biggest shipyard complexes on the west coast. I think that they can still do Nuclear Reactor Refills and are home to another CVBG, with a consist pretty similar to Everett's. Also they have a while bunch of Underway Replenishment Ships there, just like the ones at Earle in New Jersey (just west of Sandy Hook), they go out to the CVBGs and resupply them underway out in the Pacific or Indian Oceans. Again, I never made it out there, I only had 2 weeks and there was family to visit, weddings to attend, and a heck of a lot more of the Seattle area to see. Apparantly you can get one heck of an eyeful of the NSY from a Bremerton-bound ferry (3 bucks walk-on fare).
Finally, there's Boeing, which owns pretty much all the Airports in the Seattle area outside of SEATAC, both Paine Field (just south of Everett) and Renton (South end of Lake Washington) have their own branches to and from the BNSF, and both are still used quite a bit by skyboxes and high-wides (i.e half built airplanes) headed to both plants. Paine Field's Boeing Plant produces the 747, 767, and 777, and boeing practically built the whole airport for themselves back before begining production of the 747 back in the '60s, it includes the building with the largest volume of space ever enclosed, which has been added onto in the past few decades, to accomodate the 777 and 767 production. Renton makes the 737 and 757, and is a heck of a landmark on I-405 as you go south. Both places employ massive numbers of people, and any idiot planning a LRT, Monorail, or Commuter Rail service would be well advised to provide them with service, but so far only Paine Field will get service, from the Mukilteo Sounder station, via shuttle busses. Boeing Field, the once great plant that turned out the first 247 (the inspiration for the DC-3), B-17, B-29, 707, B-47 and B-52 is now kind of a shell of what it once was, it's too small to be effective, and is surrounded by an urban sprawl. It's now home to the Musuem of Flight, a small Boeing contigent (I have NFC what they do, but they get primered planes there occasionally), and several flight schools and private plane hangers.
Finally, there's Boeing, which owns pretty much all the Airports in the Seattle area outside of SEATAC, both Paine Field (just south of Everett) and Renton (South end of Lake Washington) have their own branches to and from the BNSF, and both are still used quite a bit by skyboxes and high-wides (i.e half built airplanes) headed to both plants.
Supposedly, the BNSF spur to Paine Field has one of the steepest grades of any railroad in the United States. I looked for it when I was in the area 14 months ago, but apparently it's not visible from any public road.
Boeing Field, the once great plant that turned out the first 247 (the inspiration for the DC-3), B-17, B-29, 707, B-47 and B-52 is now kind of a shell of what it once was, it's too small to be effective, and is surrounded by an urban sprawl.
I thought much of the area around BFI was really run-down and skanky.
Regarding that BNSF spur with the steepest grade...YES,it IS visible from public roads. The roads out of the back of the Boeing parking lots! Have driven past it many times, never saw a train in action though plenty of Boeing component cars on the siding at the plant as well as down below on the BNSF mainline.
Yes, much of the area around BFI is run-down and skanky as you mention -- but it is the old, industrial type of "run-down and skanky". Lots of stuff in daily use, but yes,it is run down and skanky. Not exactly a scenic area.
Regarding Subbase Bangor -- there are NO tours, and yes, it IS patrolled by the USMC. And no, you do NOT mess with them. If they don't take care of you, their big dogs will eat you. :-)
My uncle is a USN lieutenant commander there, and he's been able to take me around most of the base. BUT -- there is a second set of checkpoints inside the base, surrounding where the subs actually are. I cannot pass those checkpoints with my uncle.
Oh, Seattle is feeling the full effect of sprawl. All the damn California transplants are buying their mansions out by Issaquah, up around Anacortes, or out on Whidbey Island, only to find that they're right back where they started in LA, 70 miles from the CBD with a 2 hr commute both ways ahead of them.
Seattle may be suffering from the effects of sprawl in some respects, yet it has one of the most vibrant downtowns, both in employment and entertainment/shopping terms, of any city in the country.
i would love to know this one !!
( also ) bet they aint' givin them out anymore ( anywhere ) !!!
right subtalkers ?.............!
tell the truth on this one !
you dont need permits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....................!!!!!!lol
whoever stopped you was a complete moron!........lol..
unless you were in a cab..lol!
how bout on the platform at union station photographing commuter rail
& diesel trains at that ?
"we are going to call the sheriffs if we see you taking pictures ever
again" !!
i had to hear that SHIT as i was walking away form these folks !!!
@ actually i was through taking pictures !! & going home !!
i mean they were full of SHIT..........!
if the were no such things a transverse cabs ...................
----------catch my drift ??
if so i would like to know .....just for the information ......(sigh)
nobody has a currently valid permit !!
uh - huh !!............yep !!
& they aint' givin' em' out anymore ..............
Geez!
They're not giving photo permits out at NYC Transit because NO PERMIT IS REQUIRED. Photo permits are only given to people who are photographing for professional/profit-seeking reasons.
David
why was i stopped 4 taking #7 still photos at woodside ??
( & no tripod either ) .................................
WHAT WAS I DOING ILLEGAL THIS TIME ??
( all i had was my digital still camera ) .............!
I don't know. I wasn't there. But, as "Widecab5" indicated the other day, not everybody knows the rules and some people tend to make up their own.
David
For those of you who saw the "updates suspended" message on my site, here is news on how my new server move is going:
I have FTP access to the server now. I have done all the HTML for the new pictures so I merely need to upload everything to the new server. I am expecting this to take several weeks. Once completed, I will have a wealth of photos from London, Boston, and the DC Metro Area. Until then, all the older content is still at orenstransitpage.com. The URL will not change when the new server is opened to the public.
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
RIGHT NOW!
BusTalkers are welcome, too!Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here (http://www.subtalklive.com/chathamsquare) and join in! If you have mIRC, do not click the link, just do your thing! Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
it doesnt work for me
Working for me and other people, you can also try http://tevi.davidsj.com/chat.
its working now
I should point out (for next time) that IRC users should click on the link instead of "doing [their] thing," There is now a link on that page with connection instructions. It's in a separate frame and doesn't require that the Java applet be loaded and doesn't require any JavaScript garbage. If you already have an IRC client set up correctly, then you don't need to visit again.
Before this gets too far out of hand, here's osme real-world experience:
BOSTON
Valid permit on MBTA for the asking. Must visit 6th floor 10 Park Plaza (Marketing & Communications) and it will be good for 90 days. Empoyees are required to challenge photographers by company rule. If not and are caught, they may be disciplined.
NEW YORK SUBWAY
No permit required, per Section 1050.9 (c) in the rules governing conduct of the public on NYCT and MaBSTOA. This is still in effect, though many employees choose to make up their own rules for convenience, and NYPD field officers are generally clueless about MTA by-laws.
PATH
Employees and PA Police are instructed to "challenge" photographers during their training. There is no permit required as long as no ancillary devices are used and undertaking is not for commercial purposes. Some are more aggressive than others.
PHILADELPHIA
A permit is required while taking pictures on SEPTA property or in its facilities, but most employees don't enforce the policy (and are probably ignorant of it). The good part is, if you go to the trouble of signing a photography release at 1234 Market, it is not only good for subway and elevated stations or loops, but also for depots! However, you are required to seek permission within before exercising your shutter finger.
CHICAGO
This one's a toughy. I have been taking pictures there for over 20 years and until about 5 years ago was, if anything, often ENCOURAGED by the employees. Especially since the "Dr. Chaos" episode of 1999 or 2000, the CTA is especially paranoid in the subways, and employees are instructed to challenge photographers, though older ones tend to ignore the new "rules." Until very recently, CTA had NO official policy regarding amateur photgraphy at all. My understanding is that now a "permit" (actually in letter form) can be had by contacting Mr. Ron Westlow at CTA Headquarters. 120 North Racine, Chicago IL 60607. (312) 733-7000.
TORONTO
Another one that's hard to read. When on the subway, observe the Rules of Conduct posted in each car behind the operator's cab. I think its Rule 15 or 16 regards photography and is almost a duplicate policy of NYCT. Again, most subway employees can't or won't know the difference, and tend to ask questions first. Technically unnecessary for amateurs, a TTC Property Permit may be obtained through the Legal Dept. at the McBrien Building, 1900 Yonge St. They require a call-ahead at least a week in advance if possible, then they may tell you you don't need one. Like Philadelphia, a TTC Property Permit can be used to finagle your way into a carbarn if the office help feels like cooperating.
No where else have I had a problem as long as the BASIC RULES are observed.
What may be necessary to settle this is for some kind of APTA peer committee to set a standard legal policy.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
>>Especially since the "Dr. Chaos" episode of 1999 or 2000<<
What was this all about ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>Especially since the "Dr. Chaos" episode of 1999 or 2000<<
Dr. Choas was a disturbed person who comandeered an old utility room in the State Street Subway as his HQ for a diabolical gas attack plot. I think his space was discovered to have several canisters of cyanide spirited away.
It shouldn't have reflected on railfans or railfanning, but made a good excuse for certain individuals who like to a) exhibit power and b) control behavior they don't personally understand.
September 11 just aggravates the situation.
Unfortunately, CTA was once well populated by railfan friendly people in upper management but is now almost 180° from that position.
The employees get caught in the middle.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
man ! they are most transit - photographer UN FRIENDLY in chicago !
forget about it man !! ................no lol
man ! they are most transit - photographer UN FRIENDLY in chicago !
forget about it man !!
Yeah, there's no way anybody could get pictures like these in Chicago.
ok how did you get away with it ??.. why did they leave you alone ?
man check out those transverse cabs , back in the 1980s they had real
railfan windows in chicago ! man that was a lot of fun back then !!
Correct ;-) I couldn't get these either.
--Mark
they did not ask you to stop taking pictures even once???
Not once. I even went to the public affairs office and discussed it with them. I didn't have to, they told me, and they even gave me a few of their really nice calendars.
--Mark
Wait a minute, for septa, does that mean that I can go to 1234 market, admire the PCC for a while of course. Then get a pass, and go run around elmwood depot or the Powelton engine yards? Is there a difference between the Regional Rail and the Bus/Trolleys with this (ie it works for the City Division, but not the Regional Rail yards)? Has anybody here tried to get one of these? Do they work?
A while back I was kicked out of the Parking lot at 30th St Station, I complied fully, and got my rear out of there, that was back around the time Sallam Allah was causing problems in New York, and I didn't want to post another message about Idiot Railfans. But when I was sent to the crew building in the middle of the yard, the person who caught me said I needed to get a Photo pass. This was Amtrak, do they even give Photo Passes to non-media types, or do I need to present some kind of credentials?
Anyway, thanks.
Wait a minute, for septa, does that mean that I can go to 1234 market, admire the PCC for a while of course. Then get a pass, and go run around elmwood depot or the Powelton engine yards? Is there a difference between the Regional Rail and the Bus/Trolleys with this (ie it works for the City Division, but not the Regional Rail yards)? Has anybody here tried to get one of these? Do they work?
A while back I was kicked out of the Parking lot at 30th St Station, I complied fully, and got my rear out of there, that was back around the time Sallam Allah was causing problems in New York, and I didn't want to post another message about Idiot Railfans. But when I was sent to the crew building in the middle of the yard, the person who caught me said I needed to get a Photo pass. This was Amtrak, do they even give Photo Passes to non-media types, or do I need to present some kind of credentials?
Anyway, thanks.
Since I haven't had one in years, I don't know how they work it now. In the days when I had one the procedure was go to see Public Relations (the late Dave Murdoch) and sign a release. You were given a copy of that and a letter stating that you had permission to take photographs on SEPTA at stations and facilities. It included City Transit and Red Arrow when I used it, but I never looked for Commuter Rail back then.
Scope included subway and elevated stations, stops on reservations and SEPTA property, and if you asked permission, depots as well. There were the usual stipulations included: no flash or tripod, not for commercial purpose, etc.
RR Division is part SEPTA and part Amtrak. In 1991, myself and an Amtrak employee got a different level of permission to photograph SEPTA trains on Amtrak properties from the Philly Division Supt. Included were places like Zoo and 52nd Street (Valley) as I recall, but permission was not required to photograph trains at public stations (as long as you stay away from the track). The SEPTA release letter probably would have been good at Reading Terminal, where they were touchy, but I never tried it. No permission was required on the Reading side for public stations either.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The contact person for SEPTA is:
Richard Mulloney- Director of Public Affairs.
It took Peggy a long time to finally get through to him, but once she got the human he checked out tnycsubway.org and granted permission.
Even with the permit, she was stopped three times- a SEPTA police officer who melted after being shownt he permit and two SEPTA employees who also stopped their bojections fater being shown the written permission.
For NYC- you are now banned on any trasnsit museum tour from filming abandoned/closed areas.
It is also frowned upon to take picturees of the booth, especially if anything on the inside shows.
slowly but sure we will all be arrested and handcuffed and jailed for
taking rail transit photos of any subway train or bus !!
? nazi america is here now ? ............!
you said .........that............
Even with the permit, she was stopped three times- a SEPTA police officer who melted after being shownt he permit and two SEPTA employees who also stopped their bojections fater being shown the written permission.
what crime is being donje here folks ??
No, you are the ONLY one who will be stopped, handcuffed and hauled off to the police station for intense questioning.
Remember, you only got "almost arrested" in NYC after you were observed in the cab of an in-service train, which many people mentioned to you before.
Why don't you knock it off.
We are getting tired of your almost constant tirade. You will get NO sympathy here.
why dont you knock off first ? sinse you refuse to read and exercise
some basic common sense !
the subject the good folks on this board are talking about is taking
photos , not video
but of cource you coped out on that right ??
slowly but sure we will all be arrested and handcuffed and jailed for
taking rail transit photos of any subway train or bus !!
? nazi america is here now ? ............!
you said .........that............
Even with the permit, she was stopped three times- a SEPTA police officer who melted after being shownt he permit and two SEPTA employees who also stopped their bojections fater being shown the written permission.
what crime is being done here folks ??
>Even with the permit, she was stopped three times- a SEPTA police officer who melted after being shownt he permit and two SEPTA employees who also stopped their bojections fater being shown the written permission
Wow that surprises me. I have been to Philly to transit shots several times over the past few years and have never had any problems from SEPTA employees.
I found SEPTA to be one of the most fan friendly properties (MUNI was very trouble free also). I guess it depends on your who happens to cross your path.
Wow that surprises me. I have been to Philly to transit shots several times over the past few years and have never had any problems from SEPTA employees.
I was ordered by SEPTA police to stop photographing at the Fern Rock Regional Rail station some years ago when SEPTA was using a couple leased NJT U34CH's.
i was told each station is private ownwed ....!..........?
Metrolink Commuter Trains just use em !! so you take your chance when
you go to each station and take photos !!
Some stations will leave you alone others may not if the security
is on the rag that day !
a photo video permit costs thousands of up front dollars big time !!
no more "yard tours" since 911 they arescared 2 death of everyone !
you just have to " take your chance taking pictures of any train "
the railroads here frown on this these post "911" days !!
nobody knows nothing but you are on the hook
i guess i will have to have papers to go anywhere soon ???.
............................!
i was told each station is private owned ....!..........?
Metrolink Commuter Trains just use em !! so you take your chance when
you go to each station and take photos !!
Some stations will leave you alone others may not if the security
is on the rag that day !
a photo video permit costs thousands of up front dollars big time !!
no more "yard tours" since 911 they arescared 2 death of everyone !
you just have to " take your chance taking pictures of any train "
the railroads here frown on this these post "911" days !!
nobody knows nothing but you are on the hook
i guess i will have to have papers to go anywhere soon ???.
............................!
Peggy worded her request carefully so as to incluide Market East, Suburuban, Fern Rock by stating: Stations,architectural features, artwork,etc.
After being stopped three times, she stayed in the first car of the train and waited till the train left or stations where the booth is on another level. For those stations the mezzanine was done fromt eh stairway to the platform for quick movement.
Peggy advised me she worded her request by stating "photos will be used on nycsubway.org, a non-commerical web site run by and for railfans. SEPTA browsed the site and granted the permit.
To our Pest: hang it up! One of these days you will be arrested.
I realize you have no understanding of organized society. In any organized society (A group of more than one person), soem individual rights have to be surrendered for the sake of the group. Every time you stop at a traffic light you surrender your right to keep moving. Can you imagine 42nd and Broadway if we removed the traffic light? Society has authority figures who decide on the rules and has those who have to advise non-conformers of the rules the higher authorities have established.
NYC has long had rules such as no bike riding, no roller blades or skateboards or scooters on statiosn or trains, limitatiosn on photos.
areas open only to certain authorized employees.
I work for NYCT andf I cannot enter all areas and respect that and obey those directives.
I've never had a SEPTA photo pass and have never been bothered. I've been asked a few times what I was doing, but the answer must have satisfied the askers, since they allowed me to carry on. The only 'hassle' I ever got was on an 'official business' expedition - I was taking NJT bus photos at the Camden/Rand Transit Center, at the loading areas on Broadway, when an operator left his bus and told me I couldn't take photos. When I explained what I was doing, he made his point once again, fairly heatedly. I told him I was on a public street and could do what I wanted, and besides that, I already had his vehicle photo'd. He told me he knew I was a 'company stooge' and looking to find drivers disobeying rules, and he would 'remember' me (whatever that meant). On the other hand, many other operators have often 'posed' buses, cars, etc for me without even being asked.
He told me he knew I was a 'company stooge' and looking to find drivers disobeying rules...
I encountered that attitude when I was photographing the P&W track rebuilding in Radnor in 1984. The workers thought I was a SEPTA management spy and became disgruntled. The foreman confronted me and when he explained my response to the workers, they perked up and were proud to be the object of somebody's interest.
A while back I was kicked out of the Parking lot at 30th St Station
This didn't last very long. I've photographed from the 30th Street parking lot a couple times after hearing about people being asked to leave there.
>>> I've photographed from the 30th Street parking lot a couple times after hearing about people being asked to leave there. <<<
A great photo. But I can understand why they would not want photographers taking pictures from a parking lot. Loitering with a camera would be a great cover for anyone wanting to break into the cars that are parked there for the day.
Tom
But I can understand why they would not want photographers taking pictures from a parking lot. Loitering with a camera would be a great cover for anyone wanting to break into the cars that are parked there for the day.
True, but it's a very popular railfan location and it's not at all unusual to see photographers there.
churchob did they come running over to you to tell you to stop taking
pictures in that location too ??
or did they leave you alone ?
Man did this happen on the # 7 big time !!
NEW YORK SUBWAY
No permit required, per Section 1050.9 (c) in the rules governing conduct of the public on NYCT and MaBSTOA. This is still in effect, though many employees choose to make up their own rules for convenience, and NYPD field officers are generally clueless about MTA by-laws.
eventually i had to act like a thief and robber and mugger !!
shoot and run from one station to another !!
Thanks for posting this.
The only thing I'd like to add about SEPTA is while the employees may not enforce this, the police absolutely do.
When I was in Chicago, I found that a nice discussion with some of the folks at the public relations office was all that was necessary. I didn't have any problems taking video after that (although I didn't have problems befroe that, either).
When I was in Toronto, I found the rules to be rather vague. Anyway, I didn't have any difficulty.
--Mark
I got up early today with 4 choices of things to do. (5 if you include sleeping all day) They were, operating at Branford, the Metro North Open House, taking the Oyster Bay train to the Oyster festival, or the last weekend at Belmont Pk before they moved to Aqueduct for the winter. I eventually picked the Open House and drove to Mineola Station with my 6 year old son Arthur to get the train to Penn. The trip started off on a negative note. Since I'm not up on any G.O.'s I had no idea about the "7" not going past QB Plaza this weekend so, Murphy's Law, I got off the LIRR at Woodside to get a one seat rice to Grand Central! After taking a 3 standee ride, a packed 7, a packed W, and a packed 6 I got on the Hudson Division train to Croton Harmon. Was I surprised the M3 train was pretty much identical to the LIRR trains except for the windows. I was more pleasantly surprised when the conductress (is there such a word?) honored my LIRR Police Pass. Even though I'm officially retired this month the pass is good till the end of the year. I also enjoyed the ride, I never realized it went along the Hudson the whole way and had a nice view of Yankee Stadium and the Kawasaki Plant.
The Open House was really nice, even though it was drizzling. One negative thing was when talking to the employment people at their booth I found out its definitely double dipping if you have a state pension already so I might as well take back my resumes for ass't conductor. Arthur had his picture taken in the seat of a dual mode loco and lots of free stuff. We didn't take the foliage train as they said it was pretty much the same as the trip up there and we were hungry. We both enjoyed it and recommend it next year to anybody.
Going home I didn't make the same mistake by taking the "7". We took the shuttle then the 7th Av train from Gr Central to Penn.
Oh by the way, are you listening Salam? We had the railfan window from Croton Harmon to Grand Central and from Penn to Mineola!!!
"Even though I'm officially retired this month the pass is good till the end of the year", why not wait till january to retire then???????:)
I think you misunderstood. What I'm saying is I can still use the LIRR pass for the rest of the year. It was not one of the things the NYPD made me surrender at retirement and it says good for 2002. In January I guess I'll be driving more, at least to Queens to get the subway.
I got a close look at that loco. Is it my imagination, or is the Genesis cab higher off the ground than most?
It probably just seems that way as the rails in the shop are higher off the ground than usual.
it is higher off the ground. i get cab rides on Genesis all the time, from Generous engineers who let a fellow co worker ride. u should see the hudson line from the Genesis view!!!!!
Any idea how much higher? For that matter, how high is a Geep or F9 cab?
while i was on the J to marcy ave,as i was passing the ENY yard i saw
the an M train laying in at the ENY yard,and i saw a set of R42 that
parked there,the front of the car #4946 had the diomnd Q on it,the sides had them set for the L,and the back car #4947 had the J in the
front of it,is it true that the R42 are going to the Q,and if it is,
when?
til next time
While the plan is for at least some R-42s to make their way to Coney Island eventually, that shouldn't be happening yet. Someone must have been sign-changer-happy.
David
Yeah, we play with the signs in the yards to blow the minds of SubTalkers!
Next time you walk 10 cars, set 'em to "CC" ... that oughta cause a whole new thread. :)
I used to do that to my roadies so my friends could identify me or my equipment. I'd roll the cloth sign so the "8TH Avenue" from the C sign showed above the CC, roll the "A" off center or I'd transfer cars with the Bird, R32/8s with a number etc. One of my favorite pranks was working R46s with the motorized side signs. By setting the two sign dials to 12, the side signs would roll until they went to the blank end. Drove passengers and platform C/Rs at 179 crazy. I was cleaning out my old tool box and found the long stemmed sign changer for the R42 strip maps and the curved one for the R32 cross handles. On the subject of signs of memory lane:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=725804826
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=724543903
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=724212236
A genuine Charles Fiori Roll Sign!!! Alas, someone by the name of "Slant-40" has bid on it, wonder who he is...:o>
NOTE: This is the SECOND GENERATION Eastern Div. roll sign, not the original, so it probably dates from around 1976. I had no idea that QB was on it. NOW, if he has an ORIGINAL one with A/AA/B on it... I HAD one, from Car #4612, I acquired it back in 1972, from my Dad, who got it from 207th Street Shoppe where he worked. #4612 was in having his nose fixed, he had tangled with R32 #3629 and his bonnet was all busted up. Somehow the curtain roll survived and had been taken down, was sitting on the car seat, we asked for it and were told "sure, go ahead" somehow it got lost over the years. I am still kicking myself over that one. My Dad has #3629's multi-colored mylar curtain roll, with the "D" tattered.
wayne
It will, and soon as the R143's appear. The J will have some of the R42's until the R160's come in its place.
If I'm driving up from Plymouth and I want to park at the Red Line and take the T into Boston, which station is better - Braintree or Quincy Adams? The primary variable would be the availability of parking space at about 10 or 11 AM.
And related question - are the PCCs still soldiering along on the Red Line's Mattapan branch?
Take the commuter rail from North Plymouth or Kingston/Rte 3. Plenty of parking on the commuter rail at all times.
Yes the Mattapan Trolleys are still running.
AEM7
Thanks but I'd rather use the Red Line - haven't been on the extension from JFK/UMass to Braintree and would like to ride it.
So is the parking situation better at Braintree or Qunicy Adams? Thnaks.
I believe that Quincy Adams is best. I've heard from folks that head to Braintree to find it full have to proceed to QA.
Send me a private email -- maybe we can get together. It would be good to see you again!
Imagine that you had control of unlimited funds and that you had no opposition for construcion of new subway lines in the NYC area(this can include existing proposals). What would you do?
Remember, ANYTHING GOES!
However, stay in the 5 boroughs.
My proposals are...
1. Extend the # 7 to Javits Center by building under 42nd St to 9th Ave, then turn south to 37th St and then west to Javits Center. New stations would include 9th Ave (island platform) and Javits (loop island platform w/ 2 tracks similar to the WTC PATH station).
2. Construct the 2nd Av Subway from Court St IND to Gun Hill Rd in the Bronx (using the 3rd Ave El pathway). The stations would be based on the track plan on nycsubway.org, with connections to the 63rd St. tunnel. On the Bronx portion, station locations would be the same as the 3rd Ave El. The entire line would be 4 tracks (up to Whitehall St, where the tracks would merge before Court St) and use express/local where needed.
3. Extend the BMT Canarsie to West St/10th Av. The new station would be a loop station like the Javits station.
4. Extend the 1/9 line to Staten Island, hooking wp with the SIR at St. George Ferry Terminal. The line would also include subway service to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. (weird huh?) Also includes a new South Ferry station.
When I think of others, I'll post them. Also, I'd appreciate your opinion on my proposals as well. :)
1, sas- like you said, also with a connection to broad/nassau line
2, 9th avenue subway- runs from 125th/river across 125th, then down ninth to 66th, at 66th it will split into 2 lines, 1 will connect to broadway at 57th, 1 will run down 10th ave, to 14th st, and then become the 14th crosstown to canarsie. (there would be a new local station constructed at 66th for the independant, it would connect to the ninth and interboro stations)
3, 125th crosstown- runs along the hudson river from 181st to 125th, then along 125th to ninth ave, then continues crosstown to connect with the SAS
4, Resizing of all lines to be able to have 10 car trains of cars with dimensions of 10'X70' and making all lines underground (Broadway/125th el would be saved for a purpose to be later explained)
1, extending PATH into a modified for heavy rail newark city subway
2, connecting Path at 33rd to the 7, by tunneling under the 6th ave line, and then entering the 7 where the old steinway tunnel loop is.
3, extending the WTC path to connect with the lex at Brooklyn Bridge(city hall loop would be modified for use as an exit)
4, Building a subway line to replace all elevateds, and cover all open cuts.
5, Make system compatible with 10 car 70'X10' trains
Hey, open cuts rule. Except when they get filled with trash :(
--Brian
In order of priority:
2nd Ave Subway, starting basically from 125th to South Ferry, and then spreading to the Bronx on the line proposed in 1929 east of the #6 line {there's no subway service around there.} Also, spreading to Brooklyn by means of the following:
-Switches from 2nd Ave line to Grand St on the B/D
-New tunnel feeding into Court St {Transit Museum}
Tunnel connecting Staten Island to Manhattan, but I don't like the idea of it connecting with the 1/9.
Utica Ave Subway, would feed off of IRT Brooklyn express stubs, south to Kings Plaza.
General extension of subway to Queens/Nassau border. {Hillside line to 268 St, E line via Nassau Blvd to Springfield Blvd, J/Z line along Jamaica Ave to Belmont Park, A line to Springfield via original 1929 proposal}
ok ..where do you get the funding for this ??
This is if you had UNLIMITED FUNDING.
ok ............thankz
Second Avenue Subway:
(W) 125th Street Hudson River crosstown to Second Avenue, then onto Broadway via 63rd Street running to Coney Island via the West end Line at all times.
(N) Fordham University via new Third Avenue (Bronx) Subway joining Second Avenue Subway crossing the Manhattan Bridge via connection at Christie Street then running to Coney Island via Sea Beach, at all times.
(T) 179th Street via Queens Express to Second Avenue via 63rd Street Tunnel to Whitehall/Water Street. Day Times
Sixth Avenue Changes:
(D) Concourse/Eighth Avenue Exoress to Sixth Avenue Express crossing Manhattan Bridge to Coney Island via the Brighton Line. All Times
(B) Concourse/Eighth Avenue Local to Sixth Avenue Express to Whitehall/Water Street. (Day Times)
(F) 179th Street /Queens Express via 63rd Street / Sixth Avenue Local to Coney Island via Culver Express. All Times
(V) Continential Avenue/Queens Local via 53rd Street / Sixth Avenue Local to Chambers Street WTC. (Day Times)
Eighth Avenue Changes:
(A) 207th Street Eighth Avenue Express to the Rockaways.
(C) 168th Street Eighth Avenue Local via Rutgers Tunnel to Church Street (Day times) or Kings Highway (Rush Hours) on the Culver Line
(E) Jamaica Center / Queens Express via 53rd Street/ Eight Avenue Local to Lefferts Blvd (Day Times) or Chambers Street (Night Times).
Myrtle Avenue Subway:
The Myrtle Avenue lines are a new creation using high speed transit equipment and extending out to the edges of Queens. Several feeder lines (with a somewhat lower tph related to lower density neighborhoods) merge at Jamaica Center for an Express run to a new downtown Brooklyn station and then cross into Manhattan via a new four track tunnel transversing Wall Street and turning north via the West Side Highway, then via Moore Avenue to Fifth Avenue. This continues north via Fifth Avenue with a major line returning to Queens via Northern Boulevard to the Queens Line and a second routing running north to the Bronx Hub. A possible extension of this might follow the Concourse without stops to 205th Street and then to CoOp City via Bure Avenue.
Fifth Avenue trains do not stop along Fifth Avenue between 63rd Street and 110th Street: The NIMBYs don't want it, they say it isn't needed, and construction will be deep enough that it will in no way disturb the surface.
(M1) (Elevated) Jamaica Avenue County Line to Jamaica Center: Myrtle/Fifth Avenue Express to Greenwood Street (Northern Blvd).
(M2) (Elevated) Green Acres via Merrick Blvd to Jamaica Center: Myrtle/Fifth Avenue Express to Roosevelt Avenue (Northern Blvd).
(MM) (Subway) Jamaica Center to Northern Blvd via Myrtle/5th Ave Local.
(HH) Mott Haven / Fifth Avenue Local to Euclid Avenue via Pineapple Tunnel joining Fulton east of Clark Street Station.
Metropolitan/Ninth Avenue Subway:
Highspeed transit equipment operating via Union Turnpike and Metropolitan Avenue crossing into Manhattan on Houston Street making the Second Avenue Station with the IND, then bending north along First Street with routes moving north onto Ninth Avenue via Bleeker Street and south along the West Side Highway to a new terminal at Battery Park. The Route may continue south to Staten Island.
Northbound, Local Trains terminate at Riverside Drive and 122nd Street, while express trains bend east along 125th Street and then follow Fifth Avenue Trains on to Grand Concourse and to CoOp City.
(K1) (Elevated) 270th Street Union Turnpike to Battery Park. (Subway West of Cunningham Park)
(K2) (Subway) Cunningham Park Union Turnpike Express to CoOp City via Ninth Avenue (Non-Stop on Grand Concourse 149st to Bedford Park)
(KK) Jamaica Center via Metropolitan Avenue Local / Ninth Avenue Local to Riverside Drive 122nd Street)
(K3) 122nd Street Riverside via Ninth Avenue Local to Battery Park.
23rd Street Subway:
A new service starting at Javits Center, running crosstown on 23rd Street with a line to Water/Whitehall and new tunnel to Brooklyn with lines folowing Washington Avenue to Kings Plaza (Flatbush Avenue) and Emmons Avenue (Nostrand Avenue)
(X1) Emmons Avenue to Water/Whitehall via Washington Avenue Express
(X2) Kings Plaza to Javits Center via Washington Avenue Express
(X3) Glennwod Avenue to Javits Center via Washington Avenue Local
(XX) Javits Center to Water/Whitehall via 23rd Street Subway
: ) Elias
Well, mine is too big to list here, but suffice it to say I have been working on a transit project for little over a year that I hope to establish a website for railfans to review and their leisure, but not before I send out the "completed package" to our fellow railfans here at subtalk. You're name is among them, TCRails, as I've noticed that you become a regular poster. Some people here have already seen the basics of my project by request,when I started a thread on the subject last November. When I have more time, in the near future I post another thread about the updates on this project.
As I've said, mine is too big to list here, but I'll a few things from the project:
(1) Construct a new trunk line along NOrthern Blvd. in Queens to allow more service to northern and northeastern Queens. It would be easier to connect this route to the 63rd Street Tunnel as one way to access Manhattan. Another East River Tunnel could be built from 65th Street or 57th Street to connect to this line.
(2) Extend the #7 train west of Times Square. My project has the 7 connect to a new trunk line that takes it Brookyn.
(3) Some of the routes of the IND Second System reconsidered as possible extensions to areas of the city with no direct subway service.
(4) Subway lines to Staten Island, most of Hudson County--including Jersey City and Bayonne, and Newark.
Of course these extensions would require more subway cars to be ordered, so I would throw in a larger R142, R143 and forthcoming R160 order, or maybe a new type of subway car altogehter.
"(1) Construct a new trunk line along NOrthern Blvd. in Queens to allow more service to northern and northeastern Queens. It would be easier to connect this route to the 63rd Street Tunnel as one way to access Manhattan. Another East River Tunnel could be built from 65th Street or 57th Street to connect to this line. "
Yes indeed. Drill it deep, though, since you have to get past the existing tunnels in the area.
Extend the F train up Hillside for us, won't you?
Actually, I have an F extension up Hillside from 179th Street to Floral Park, around 267th Street in this project.
When I complete the whole thing, which I hope to do by the end of the year, you can see for yourself how I done this, as I will be emailing copies to most of the regular posters here on subtalk.
Ok, since you have unlimited funds, this is what I would do. I'm only doing the letter routes up to the N and a new Culver Shuttle. I'll do the other letter lines and the IRT in another post.
System: Upgrade the entire system by renovating stations, reduce the # of slow speed orders, buy new rolling stock, etc.
Note: This is all assuming that there are no engineering roadblocks. This is just my thoughts take it seriously but not too seriously.
D: Extend it from 205 St northeast to Gun Hill Rd with 2 new stops at Webster Av & Gun Hill Rd
E:a. Extend it east via Archer Av and Jamaica to Springfeld Blvd. Would be a 4 track line, E's would be express with stops at Merrick Blvd, 190 St, Francis Lewis Blvd, 212 St then Springfield Blvd. and J's/Z's would be local(look at the J/Z plan and this would make more sense). E's would become local between 71 Av and Briarwood all times because its express run east of 71 Av doesn't save much time or.....
b. Extend it southeast to South Jamaica like the original plan of the Archer Av line(southern terminal unknown at this time).
F/V: Extend it east to Springfleid Blvd to give eastern Queens riders subway service. F would become express again to 179 St then would continue to be a 4 track line to Springfield. Would run express all times to Springfield all times except nights and maybe weekends, when it will switch to the local at 71 Av. 2 local sevices would be best R and V trains most (see R also) likely and a Q extension is also possible(room on QB line permitting).
Express stations on F from 21 St[assuming it stays on 63rd]:
21 St, Roosvelt Av, 71 Av, Union Tpke, Parsons Blvd, 179 St, 188 St, Francis Lewis Blvd, 212 St, Springfield Blvd
Local stations on a extended V east of 71 Av(see R also):
75 Av, Union Tpke, Briarwood, Sutphin Blvd, Parsons Blvd, 169 St, 179 St, 184 St, 195 St, 202 St, Francis Lewis Blvd, 212 St, Springfield Blvd
J/Z: a.Extend it east along with E's to eastern Queens via Archer and Jamaica Aves to Springfield Blvd and would make all stops to Springfield while E's are express. Z's would be expanded to weekends and middays or a increase in J service would make this work.
Local stops east of Jamaica Center:
Merrick Blvd, 171 St, 179 St, 184 St, 190 St, 195 St, Francis Lewis Blvd, 212 St then Springfield.
b. Eliminate the S curve at Cypress Hills, build a new Cypress Hills station, but I would leave it a skip stop.
c. Eliminate S-curve at the Willy-b approach and create a new Marcy Av station with 2 island platforms, 3 tracks so it would be a real express station and M's won't have to terminate at Myrtle when it runs as a shuttle whenever middle track isn't used.
d. Start skip stop at Broadway Junction instead of Myrtle, Z's would use middle track to B'way, J's would switch from exp. to local at Myrtle. Possible weekend peak express service.
L: Would be extended wets via 14 St to 10 Av then would terminate at 23 St/Chelsea Piers.
N: a.Extend it to LaGuardia airport. I would make the Astoria line into a 4 track subway but would tear down the el ONLY after all the workis complete. 2 services, the N and a second service would go to LaGuardia.
Stations from Queensboro Plaza:
^=would be express stations
39 Av, 36 Av, Broadway, 30 Av, Astoria Blvd^, Ditmars Blvd^[would be relocated because the line would make a right turn on Ditmars and run under it to 82 St], Steinway St, 46 St, 71 St, 77 St, 82 St^ then LaGuardia. As for which terminal it would terminate I suggest the AA[American Airlines] terminal.
b. Restore Sea Beach line to a 4 track line 2 super express/2 local tracks by upgrading 2 exp. tracks, and reactivating deactivated CI bound track and a possible reconfiguration at 86 St to a express station(if possible).
Culver shuttle: Would build a new Culver shuttle from Ditmas Av which is 1 track, would become 2 track after Ditmas with stops at 14 Av, Ft Hamilton Pkwy then 9 Av lower level, which would be restored and reactivated with 2 spur tracks west of the station to connect to 4 Av line in case of detours. 14 Av & Ft Hamilton would be above ground with island platforms. Also, would save time rather than taking the F to 4 Av.
My continuation........
2 Av subway***: This line is one of my top priorities. Would run the full length of 2 Av from Lower Manhattan or Brooklyn to Co-op City and would be a trunk line (a line with 4 tracks and at least 3 services). Desparately needed to reduce unsafe overcrowding on the Lex Av line.
R: a.Like the F and V, would be extended east to Springfield Blvd via the Hillside local. Springfield would be a 2 level terminal or similar to 71 Av.
b. 4 Av line would be expanded to a 4 track line south of 59 St and the R and another service to be named would run to Staten Island and would become 2 track after 86 St, as it does now & would be 2 track in SI to St George via Bay St. Would continue as the 4 Av local to 86 St plus the 4 Av line would be restored to tiles and mosaics and 86 St would be tiled instead of that green/brown paint which is VERY unattractive.
S/Franklin: Would become 2 track again full length, extended platforms to at least 4 cars and a possible extension to Brighton Beach which means south side track would be reactivated.
2,3,4,5: Redesign the Rogers junction
2 and 5: a.Extend the line south via Flatbush to Kings Plaza. I'd leave it a 2 track line and Kings Plaza would be a double platform 4 track terminal and I would institute skip stop service between Franklin Av and Av U.
b. Extend the line south via Nostrand to Sheepshead Bay. This would become a 4 track line south of Flatbush Av with 5's running as the express
I'll get back to you on the 6 and 7
What do you think?
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Continuing on..........
6: Would run to Co-op City but the terminal station would be at Bay Plaza shopping center, running as a 2 track line nonstop, offering a 1 seat ride to the mall, making transfers to the Bx12 a option and creating new transfers to the Bx25,26,28,29,30 and QBx1.
7: a.Extend it to Javits center via 42 St, turning south on 11 Av to 34-35 Sts with new stops at 9 Av, 11 Av and Javits Center. Would be 2 tracks until Javits station, which would be 3 tracks, 2 island platfforms to reduce delays and add more service, if necessary.
b.Extend the line east from Main St to Bell Blvd via Northern Blvd and would continue to be a 3 track line all the way to the new terminal, Bell Blvd and MAYBE a 4th track [probably for storage or possible 2 way express but the present line would probably have to become a 4 track subway]. A redesignation of the <7> is also possible.
New stations for the 7 east of Main St:
^ = express stations
^Union St, Parsons Blvd, 150 St, 157 St, ^Crocheron Av, 167 St, Utopia Pkwy, 191 St, ^Francis Lewis Blvd, 204 St, 209 St, ^Bell Blvd
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Keep It Out of the Park! It's my park and I don't want any noisy subways running through it.
My subway fantasy is simple. Get my Sea Beach to terminate at either 42nd Street and Times Square, or 57th Street. Let the W or some other train go to Astoria. Run the Sea Beach as the Broadway Express as it once did in Manhattan, bypassing some of those non-descript stations like 23rd and 4th, etc. Then take it over the Manny B, express in Brooklyn to Coney Island. Then as an added touch fix the express tracks in the open cut so we can get quick service to Coney Island and back. And I'll bet the TA is reading this and laughing like hell. Well screw them.
"#4SeaBeachFred", my propsal on the N also calls for a restoration of the Sea Beach express. Read some of my previous opsts on proposals (especially the N) and see if you're satisfied ;-)
I have and I am satisfied. I only hope the TA gets their #%^& together and does what's right.
My Dream is as follows, Restore the D back to Coney island, as a local in Brooklyn. Run the Q Mon-Sat 6A-10P Brighton Beach to 179th Jamaica. Express Bklyn-Manhatten-Queens. Put the F Local 24/7 Coney Island Jamaica. via 53rd, except when the Q is not running, then run it thru 63rd St. Eliminate the V. Run the M back to Coney Island via the Brighton Rush Hours. Make the 7 Exp the 8 and the 6 Exp 9. A to Far Rockaway should remain the same, but the A to Lefferts should be either the H or K so people can tell from the front of the train where it is going so they should not run for nothing. Make the Rockaway Pk trains either thru or shuttle what is not used as the H or K, Fred to stop talking to strangers on the train and embarrassing his friends.
Gee Bob, you didn't say anything about the N.:)
I'd like to see destination signs on the bulkheads come back into vogue.
Fred seems to be an outgoing person. I tend to mind my own business on the subway.
4th Avenue express to 95 St/Bay Ridge, then local to St. George through Howland Hook via the SI North Shore line.
Allows a direct ride from Flatbush to SI, with one more change to reach my place of business. I'm tired of driving Nassau to Staten Island!
I would build the IND SECOND SYSTEM lines,plus a few others,such as the line to Staten Island from the lower level IND Smith street line.
Extend the 7 Train under my apartment building so I don't have to go into Flushing to catch it.
My proposals are:
7 train to connect to PATH tunnels and operate to Hoboken, eliminating PATH.
6 train to connect to PATH from Bklyn Bridge to WTC and operate to Newark, eliminating PATH.
S service from Hoboken to Journal Square for transfering between 6 and 7 trains.
Start new 11 train from Times Square to Port Washington via Flushing Line and connect to LIRR ROW from Willets Point station. LIRR service eliminated on Port Washington ROW.
R train to run to St George, Staten Island via Narrows Tunnel and SIRT South Beach ROW from Fort Wadsworth to Clifton then via Main Line to St George.
Extend A service from Lefferts Blvd to Guy R Brewer Blvd.
2 & 5 Nostrand Line to be extended to Ave U or Emmons Ave.
5 Dyre Ave Line extended to Co-op City.
6 train extension to Orchard Beach and City Island(maybe).
4 train extended to Yonkers Raceway.
L train to new mall at Spring Creek via Linden Blvd, Penn. Ave and Belt Pkwy private ROW across bridge to Erskine St. E 105 and Rockaway Pkwy closed and demolished. New L yard will be at former dump site at other side of Belt Pkwy across from Starrett City.
Yonkers ain't in the Bronx. Also, Keep it out of the park!
Just my usual:
NEW LINES:
--Second Ave (Q) (Upper 2nd Ave/Bwy Express) (U)(V) (Queens Blvd local/lower 2nd Ave). Lower 2nd Ave would have some kind of connection to Brooklyn, perhaps via the Montague Tunnel.
--(K) shares 14th St with the (L), breaks off after Lorimer and remains on Metropolitan Ave, then turns down Union Tpke to 271 St/Floral Park
--(X)8th Ave local from WTC through 53rd, but cuts off around 23rd-Ely and takes the LIRR Lower Montauk, turns on Hillside Ave, then hooks up with the express tracks it meets at Van Wyck and goes all the way through to 268th/Langdale Streets.
--(Y) takes the place of the (V) on 6th Ave, then goes down 53rd St and the Lower Montauk line, but merges with the Jamaica Ave routes. See below.
EXTENSIONS:
--(7) extended down Roosevelt Ave and Northern Blvd. to Little Neck Pkwy, AND to Javitz via 7th Ave and 34th St, with the (9) at Javitz for its new southern terminal.
--(N) extended from Astoria right through LaGuardia Airport (with a hookup to a more modest Airtrain system which would connect with the fewer terminals LGA has), then cross the Flushing Bay and take 20th Ave through College Point, then Willets Point Blvd. through Whitestone, then Bell Blvd to at least Bay Terrace.
--(J)(Y)(Z) down Archer then Jamaica Ave, then takes over the brief LIRR branch to Belmont Racetrack (the railroad there is just inside NYC.)
--(F)(X) down Hillside to 268/Langdale Streets, Nassau line.
--(H) (Relettered from "A") extended down Liberty Ave, meets an extened (E) then follows the LIRR Atlantic Branch to Springfield Blvd.
--(3) extended via Linden Blvd and Counduit Ave to Sunrise Hwy/Hook Creek Blvd.
--(2) down Flatbush Ave, over the Marine Pkwy Bridge to the Rockways
:-) Andrew
...oops! That "V" was supposed to be my proposed 2nd Ave pink.
:-) Andrew
So far I've heard:
We are being held by the train dispatcher, we apologize for the unavoidable delay, for your safety do not hold train doors open. Are there any others?
Ladies and gentlemen, in order to provide the best possible service to all of our customers, we are being held in the station for a connecting train. [or something like that]
Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit.
Ladies and Gentlemen, for your safety please do not walk or ride between subway cars while the train is in motion.
Stand clear of the closing doors please.
Ladies and gentlemen, in order to provide Connecting service , we are being held in the station for a arriving train.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please do not lean on the car doors.
Ladies and gentlemen, for your safety, please do not hold the train doors while the train is in the station.
Ladies and gentlemen, for your safety, please do not block the train doors while the train is in the station.
Sorry to be picky, but as I say it in the 6 train dude's mouth a word is missing from the first one...please do not hold the train doors OPEN while...
It's OK. The only time I've heard those two is on a 6 train back in June of last year when the C/R got button happy. Heard either announcement (they alternated) as we left each station from 23rd Street north. I got off at 77th but I am sure it continued after that. It was rather annoying IMHO.
"Ladies and gentlemen, for your safety, please do not block the train doors while the train is in the station."
(edited message portion) "When the train doors are blocked and the train doors can't close, the train will be late and we at NYC Transit don't wanna hear your gripes about train lateness. It will be your fault!!"
Ladies and gentlemen, this is the last stop. Please leave the train at this time. Thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit.
This is the last stop on this train, everyone please leave the train, thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit.
They have actually 10, but the last two don't seem to play. ONly the first 8 work.
Ladies and getilemen for your safety, please do not hold the train doors open while the train is in the station!! (edited portion>>>) "If we are forced to use the local recycle, you will be hurt very bad, and we'll simply laugh and say "please wait for the next train!!" :-) lol
"Ladies and getilemen for your safety, please do not hold the train doors open while the train is in the station!"
The one below it says "Door holding [NY Special]" and goes something like (of course in the non-NY male voice with the southern accent):
"Hey @$$*%#( let go of the ^$#@ing doors or the conductor will beat you to a pulp."
FYI: The male voice (Charlie Pellet) is British, not Southern. There is a link to his bio on the Bloomberg website on the R142 page here.
Ladies and gentilemen thank you for riding with New York City Transit!! (edit >>) "Forgive us if your train doesn't go to its regularly scheduled line and terminal!" :-) lol
Those are actually two separate announcements. They automatically play in sequence at the end of the line, but they can each be manually triggered.
Ladies and gentilemen, for your safety, please do not ride in between subway cars while the train is in motion!! (this is an edited portion from what the original announcement was supposed to be >>>) "We are not liable for your death if your dumb ass falls between the cars!!" lol :-)
"Ladies and gentlemen, in order to provide the best possible service to all of our customers, we are being held in the station for a connecting train. [or something like that] "
(edit portion >>) "So please get off the train now to get on your connecting train, and not wait till the train doors are closing to decide your dumb ass wants to get off and get the connecting train, and delay this train in turn!!"
"Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit."
(edit >>) "It's an almost 100 year old system, ladies and gentilemen.....we can't maintain it all in one night!! Please bear with us, people!!"
["Ladies and gentlemen, in order to provide the best possible service to all of our customers, we are being held in the station for a connecting train."]
Of course, we all know that that statement isn't even correct. The standard practice of delaying 2,000+ people to benefit 50 is a net DISSERVICE, and suggests that people who are NOT on the train are more important than those who ARE on the train.
I hate when a 6 Express is held in a station for a 6 local. It annoys me because it defeats the purpose of the express.
Not if you are on the local and want to get on the express. Then again, the 6 express isn't all that fast anyway.
The 6 Express would be a kick ass express, but there are WAY too many timers in the express track. Are they all necessary? How many people come from the local to the express? ( rhetorical) When a train is held at parkchester for 5 mins for around 10 people to transfer to the express that REALLY pisses me off.
Why would an express train be held at Parkchester? The number of people who would want to transfer is minimal to the point where they probably won't complain much anyway if they realize how outnumbered they are.
That's my point.
I agree that sometimes connections don't make sense -- but sometimes they do.
If 100 people on the train are asked to wait one minute so 25 people coming off a connecting train don't have to wait ten minutes for the next train, the connection has a net benefit.
In fact, if 100 people on the train are asked to wait one minute so only 10 people coming off a connecting train don't have to wait ten minutes for the next train, the connection still has a net benefit -- because a minute spent waiting in a station is less comfortable, less safe, etc., than a minute spent waiting on a train.
The people who are not on the train are no more or less important than the people who are on the train.
I can't think of any transfer points where the typical ratio is 2000:50 -- could you identify a few?
Hence the rule that connections are only to be made during off-peak hours. Yet some idiots on the Brighton Express like going a little slower to meet with a Local and some Express Conductors like to wait for the Local ones even though the lights are out. Then there are the express conductors who said to the local ones "Imma beat ya to Kings Highway, ain't makin' no connection. Mwahahah!" and end getting that train out of the station in record time.
R68A-5200, Could you teach the Conductors on the 6 express that rule? Many of them like pissing off a trainload of peeps JUST FOR 10 PEOPLE...Nothing is more irritating than that.
Are we talking rush hours here or not? My feelings on connections are if the connection is going to be missed and the next train is far away, then the train should be held. In other words, during rush hours, very few trains should have to be held. Also, I am sure that if you were one of the 10 people who wanted to change and missed the connection, you would be saying so.
The 6 Express runs only during rush hours. Remember, this is the 6 we're talkng about and the next train is never far away. I wouldn't want to board a train with people who make it obvious that they resent you for holding them up.
There are a total of 10 different Special Announcement listed in the computer. If I feel like being anoing I string 3 or 4 of them togeather while going thought the river tubes on the L line. I always put "Thank you for riding the MTA, New York City Trainsit." Last.
Robert
But Robert, Aren't you a T/O?
Yes I am a T/O, but we still have the controll over the Special Announcements. I start them right after a leave the station. By time I get to the GD sign I am at the speed I need to make it thought the timer in the tube.
Robert
Intersting, I always thought C/R's had control of the announcements.
We can program the trains Computers for the line set up as well as the C/R. I do this if I get to my cab first, right after I charge the trainof service. If the C/R is already programing the route the computer tell us that the C/R is doing it already.
Robert
Thanks for responding Robert!! One day I want to be just like you. :-)
It's easy to do!! Believe it or not a good numbers of the other conductors don't get it!! It is like clockwork to me........funny how everyone who knows me there when I am on the L asks me to program the train!! There is even one T.S.S. (whose name will remain anonymous...Mr. NE T/O you might know whom I'm referring to...quite a surprise since he is kind of a train buff!!) who didn't even know about the special automatic announcements feature!! I ACTUALLY had to explain it to him and show him how to use it!! Maybe I should be Train Man Paul (North Div. TSS) :-) lol :-) I don't see what is so hard for the others to figure out. Maybe when they qualify the conductors, some of the technical breakdowns scramble their minds!!
We still have train crews in A Div that don't know how to program the R142's. I showed some how to do it. I can't blame them because when most of us where trained on the R142 they had 5 of us in the cab watching the TSS do it and told us not to touch anything.I learned from trail and error.
I do all the programing on the train. My T/O's don't touch the computer because they know I'm good with it. When playing special Announcements I time it with the other Announcements. At Brooklyn Bridge you have to have the train programed with currect signs before the 10 car stop it made so announcement can go off as soon as the doors open on the N/B side.
I got my Second R143 ride with Doug on Friday. Rode it from 8 AVE to Myrtle Ave and back on another R143. It looks like an R142 just bigger. The announcements are boring the same plain voice. At least on the R 142 we have diffrent voices. The ride was nice! The T/O was moving good even with all those timers.
I'll be over to the North section one of these day because I want to be learn more about those trains.
Mr North-eastern T/O, you can do the announcements anyway you like.....that's fine, but try being a little less destructive in the train cabs, primarily the R-42s (YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN PARTICULAR!!)....LMFAO!!! :-D J/K!! :-)
I am going to kick your but, next time I see you. So say off the L you hear.
Mr Extra List North Div. C/R
Robert
OOOOOOOooooooooo reeeeeeeeeeally scaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaary!!! he he he lol my my ain't we touchy!! lol Hey what happened to that seat ain't my fault!! Blame C&E department, or the nearest RCI!! lol Was the R-42 whose seat broke a CI rebuild?? lol I know don't like 'em, but DAAAAAAMN you didn't have to smash it up!! lmao!! :-) j/k
I just play the DO NOT HOLD DOORS, DO NOT BLOCK DOORS ,and DO NOT LEARN ON DOORS announcements.
I'd have to add announcements such as the "E and F" at 51st Street and "B, D, F, and Q" at Bleecker Street. They don't really count as route announcements because they don't contain current routing information.
"E and F" at 51st was correct today! Sure confused the heck out of the passengers on the F train I rode -- the C/R didn't bother to mention anything about a diversion.
I'm surprised the PATH connection at Park Place wasn't first on your list.
"For your safety, please do not block the doors"; "For your safety, please do not ride or walk between subway cars while the train is in motion."
I hate all of those announcements.....they get played by the stupid when we get a break or are finished with inspections. The worst one is....'This is a test....this is a test....this is a test....' After your hear 'this is a test' one hundred times with LED scoreboard flashing boxes and about to go banannas....I dump Low Voltage Main Breaker in the other end (A car) to reset CPU comms. Can't do that from the B car...resetting the LCU does not affect the pass through. CI Peter
OK, so this is a little off-topic. But you can get a deep-fried Twinkie (400 calories) by using the subway to get to the place in Brooklyn which sells it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/28342p-26954c.html
Who invented it? A cardiologist trying to drum up business?
No, the folks selling it in Brooklyn actually did. There was an article here on cnn.com a few days ago featuring it.
Tell us, Sarge... will it replace the donut as a cop's favorite food?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least if the article said where the place is, I'd say how to get there and put it back on topic. Off hand, I'd say take the N, R, or F trains to 9 St/4 Ave.
At least if the article said where the place is, I'd say how to get there and put it back on topic.
A search for "ChipShop" in Brooklyn on Switchboard.com resulted in "Park Slope Chip Shop", 383 5th Ave (at 6th St.).
OK. It's just that the article didn't say where ChipShop was. I guess the store was afraid they wouldn't be able to supply enough twinkies if people knew where they were located.
What is a Twinkie ? Is it a chocolate bar like a Mars Bar or Snickers?
Curious
Simon
Swindon UK
www.twinkies.com
If we are so concerned about Brooklyn food, how about Lundy's? We had a great seafood dinner there last Sunday, plus the service was great as well. There used to be Cage and Tollner's, Junior's, and Peter Luger Steak House for those who like red meat. I can't comment on the latter three because I don't know if they exist anymore. They were great places to go when I was a kid growing up in New York. Lundy's is back and their seafood is as good as I've tasted anywhere else. Sure beats talking about those damn twinkies. Hell, they even taste crappy if you ask me.
Stop it Fred! you're making me more hungrier. oh my god really getting more hungry.
Luger is still there and so is Juniors
Gage and Tollner's, Junior's, and Peter Luger Steak House...I don't know if they exist anymore.
They all exist. Only, Junior's and Peter Luger's have had the same ownership for the last half century. Both Lundy's and Gage&Tollner went broke and sold their name.
Peter Luger also has a place on Northern Blvd a few blocks in Nassau County.
Also I believe all of them remained open continuously while Lundy's was closed for about 20 years.
I believe Gage & Tollner was closed briefly.
Lundy's is an interesting case. The original Lundy owned most of the land in Sheepshead Bay. One effectively had to ask his permission to open up a restaurant or any other store along Emmons Ave. Things really went to pot after the old man died.
Deep fried Twinkies is for now just a fad. In 6 months it will be gone. Years from now it will be an foot note on the next 20 year edition of trival pursuit.
Of course there is also Spumoni Gardens.
Hey Sarge, where the hell is that? I never heard of it, but it sounds good. What part of Brooklyn is it in? Probably in a Dago neighborhood.
Probably doesn't beat an egg cream.:)
Nothing beats a good egg cream.
Agree 110%.
Its on 86th Street, in Bensonhurst, close to the West End and not very far from the SEA BEACH. I always considered it one of the most famous pizzarias in the city.
http://www.spumonigardens.com
Thanks Sarge. I'm going to remember Spumoni Gardens next spring when I come back to New York, and if not spring, then certainly in the summer. You New York guys have got to keep us out of towners abreast about the culinary delights of the Big City. Remember, it has been 48 years since I lived in Gotham.
To be honest with you Fred, although I mentioned it as it is a well known place in Bensonhurst, I never said I recommended it. As far as I'm concerned I can take it or leave it.
There is a pizzaria in Coney Island that I heard is really good. It's near the Stillwell Av Station and I hear the owner, an older eccentric man, opens and closes at whim. I was never there and don't know the name. If anyone knows about the place let us know.
<< There is a pizzaria in Coney Island that I heard is really good. It's near the Stillwell Av Station and I hear the owner, an older eccentric man, opens and closes at whim. >>
Totonno's Pizza. Stop by and order ah-beetz!
Totonno's is good! I rode down to Stillwell on the M there last October (this was while the N and the R were suspended). Ordered up a plain pizza and it was worth the trip down there.
Hey, what gives with you Jewish guys? How come you seem to know as much or more about good Italian food as we Dagos do? Case in point was about two weeks ago when Gary Wengeroff insisted on El Fornaio in Little Italy as the best of the Italian restaurants. Friend or no friend I wanted to tell him to shine it on, but I gave it a try and he was absolutely right. It was the best of over a dozen eateries I've sampled in the neighborhood. Closer to home two Jewish friends put me in touch with two restaurants, one close to my home--Carmine's. Absolutely the best. Then was this Trattoria in Lakewood whose name I can't remember. The meal I can. Tremendous. Looks like I'm going to have to sharpen up on Jewish cousine to keep you guys honest.
Hey, what gives with you Jewish guys? How come you seem to know as much or more about good Italian food as we Dagos do?
Because our family lives revolve around food, that's why. Heck, a lot of us can cook Italian better than the Italians themselves. Come to my place and find out for yourself :-) Stay a week and you'll have cuisine from a different country every day... all of it with a Southern Jewish touch.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon, if I ever get the chance to visit you I will take you up on it because I believe what you say. One thing, though. Do keep onions out of anything that you cook for me. I hate them with a passion, and that goes for their cousins, scallions and the other one that I can never remember. Hope all is well. Sorry I missed you on my trip to New York but I do remember fondly the day you, Fishbowl and I had in Jersey. It was quite a hoot.
<< One thing, though. Do keep onions out of anything that you cook for me. >>
You lose, Fred. No Jewish (hot) dish is made w/o onions!
No Jewish (hot) dish is made w/o onions!
Ain't that the truth, Dave :-) And ditto for my fine Southern cuisine. However, Fred will be glad to know that I don't put any onions in my spaghetti sauce, although I DO use enough garlic to kill any vampires that might be in the neighborhood... lots of crushed red pepper too... might be among the reasons the children named my signature Italian dish "radioactive rigatoni". And how can you make veal marsala or eggplant parmagiana without scallions?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then I will eat your spaghetti with gusto. You have no idea how much I hate onions. We have these friends, the Gottesmans, real New York Jews, both from Queens. When we go there for dinner they make sure they NEVER put onions in anything. The fact is, though, they can take it or leave it themselves. I mean they don't care one way or another about them, but they cater to me for which I am appreciative.
Resistance is futile. You (Fred) will be assimilated!
--Mark
Fred s Birthday is coming up soon, send him your local version of anything that looks, smells, and tastes like onions.
No I won't Mark---and if you don't believe me there is a woman out here who can attest to that. She loved onions and talked me into going to her house for a home cooked meal. I told her no onions and she didn't believe me. When I got served that meat dish loaded with onions, I put my napkin down, paid my respects and walked out of her life lickety split. And that is no fish story. No sir, I will not be assimilated on that score.
And then you met Linda, right?:)
Right. And what a hell of a memory you have. I think it is even better than mine, DAMN IT. Well, we are going to have to have a trivia test between the two of us next year in Branford.
Just a lucky guess.:)
Put it this way: one of my cousins would love to borrow part of my memory. I've had a colleague at work tell me I'm not allowed to resign or leave our department because I've become a go-to on the old stuff we don't make anymore.
anybody s memory is better then yours.
Attention all subtalkers. We've just heard again from the peanut gallery.
No, it's just The Bob and Fred Show.:)
Since you seem to get your jollies out of this, maybe we ought to charge you a fee for listening in.
He can click the banner up top ...
Yeh Right, Virginia Peanut Gallary
It's a really small pizza joint right across the street from the station, and yes, it is excellent!
--Mark
Mark,
Where is it? On Stillwell? I hope it is not the place accross from where the bus' stop, that place is awful.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, on Stillwell across the street from the station (the entrance that is now closed) right next to the Shore "Theatre" building, closer to Nathan's ... where the B-68 stops now. Everytime I've gone its always been good. Is there another one nearby that I should avoid?
--Mark
Yes, there is another one across the street from where you exit now. Avoid it at all costs!
Peace,
ANDEE
So THAT'S what the rat chute on the platform at Stillwell was for! :)
HEH...that place is worse than the pizza stand at Woodlawn.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. There was a place just down from 204th and Bainbridge, "Napoli Pizza" which was ab fab ... that's the ONE thing I miss upstate, they get the same supplies up here that they get in Brooklyn and everything comes out like some awful cross between Chicago Pan and Pizza Slut. But go WAY out into the sticks and you can still find some halfway decent stuff.
But Ed Kroch was right, ain't no food upstate. :)
You know Kevin I just can't figure you out. There are times I think you are in 7th Heaven up in the boonies where you reside and other times it sounds like you dread living up there. Are you just a man of moods or what. Which is it, you either like it up where you're at or you don't. If you do, missing a good pizza is a small price to pay for tranquility and peace of mind. If you're not happy up there I'm sure you have the means to move back into the high life of Gotham. You sure got me confused on that one.
And if you answer this post, make sure you don't forget to wish this old war horse a happy 62.
Nope ... quite consistent ... like everything ELSE upstate, you have to be able to do everything for yourself and fend for yourself and cook for yourself. :)
Nancy makes GREAT pizza, and there's one place way way out of town in snowmobile country that makes a kickass pizza. There's a place in town here that was an AWARD winner. Alas, they cheesed off their master chef and he moved out of town. Chinese food is nonexistent here as well. Small price to pay for sanity, or at least what I can buy in bulk that passes as sanity at BJ's Wholesale club. Heh.
Food schmood ... it's the SUBWAY that I miss!
Oh chit, forgot to wish you a happy happy ... happy happy, bro! Do a few more of them for us and come celebrate your near birthday with us loonies next year at Branford if you make it out this way ...
Happy belated birthday, Fred.
That goes for Sparky, too.
Oh and Mr. R-10, William Padron, celebrated his birthday while we were railfanning on the 16th. Happy belated birthday to you, too.
Thank you young sir, but wish me a long time before my next one comes will you? They seem to be coming faster and faster.
Oops, I goofed on one detail. We were railfanning on the 14th and 15th. I was at my sister's on the 16th.
You're right: the years seem to go by faster and faster as you get older. Kind of like a train of Triplexes gaining momentum.
Believe it or not we have a great Pizza place near me in Berryville. called Marios, BTW Mario was born in Naples and lived in Carnasie and ran a place on Flatlands Ave until 1990, so it is really NY Pizza. His name is Mike. Fred know the place.
There it goes again, a Jew telling a Dago where good Italian food can be had and, yes, it was great. But good Italian food in the South. Something about that just isn't right.
That shouldn't be a surprise. The best Wop cooks I've ever had the pleasure of dining with were POLISH. If you ever find yourself near Smallbany, Nancy'll show ya. :)
I suppose I should take that as a compliment since it seems that just about everyone loves Italian food. Hell, out here in California some of the best Italian cooks are Mexican. Go figure.
Heh. Atsa because we no empty the vino before we pour in da sauce. But yeah, offer extends if ya wanna be a gavone up this way. We do it northern, southern and siciliano style. Big Ed got a dose of Nancy's stuffed shells and he's still breathing. Go figger. :)
Be careful what you ask for because you might get it. Someday I would love to come upstate New York and meet you and your better half. Maybe take a walk in the woods and do a little fishing, or just hang out and have a blast. Take care and have a great weekend.
We'll leave a red lantern in the belfry for ya and the offer's good. Since we OWN the woods here (and just spent $3,000 to repave our private road) you can walk around buck nekkid here, though I wouldn't recommend it since we've been dipping under freezing the past couple of weeks and we wouldn't want your connoli to fall off. But let me know if you're in the hood, we'll send out a patrol car or a dogsled. :)
Mexican cooks are smart, practical and know very well how to improvise.
And the best Jewish Cooks, were black
That is the strength of his country. If we keep our ears open and our mind clear it is amazing what we can learn from each other.
Damn, their food sounds good. I'm really gonna have to eat there one of these days. I hear they make their pizza a little different from what many of us are used too. I think they put the chees on first then the sauce. I bet it's good.
Anyway, which train is closer to Spumoni Gardens? The N or the W?
W
No, N
Damn, their food sounds good. I'm really gonna have to eat there one of these days. I hear they make their pizza a little different from what many of us are used too. I think they put the cheese on first then the sauce. I bet it's good.
Anyway, which train is closer to Spumoni Gardens? The N or the W?
I wonder if Roll 'n' Roaster is still in business. They had one of the best burgers I have EVER eaten.
wayne
Either it is still there. Or they closed recently. Last time I was there was about 4 years ago. I think they have a website.
Roll 'n' Roaster is still there. Here is their website;
http://www.citimaps.com/brooklynpages/rollnroaster.html
Boy could we use a Dubrows or Garfields these days
Do I remember Dubrows! When I took a Stanley Kaplan LSAT course in the summer of 1976, I had lunch at Dubrows. The same retired gents were at the same table(s) at the same time every Sunday...probably had been coming there since WW2!
Nope! That site did not tell me what a Twinkie is:) Is it a biscuit ?
I shall just have to wait till I am over your side to find out.
Simon
Swindon UK
It's a sponge cake which is filled with vanilla filling. It is Cylinder shaped, and sold either individually or in a box. Best place to find: The Supermarket.
And convenience stores. In some places the price has been lowered to 25 cents per package to encourage sales. The cakes are mass-produced and I'd be surprised if it cost the bakery more than 7 or 8 cents to pump them out.
300% Profit. Scandalous..
>>> It's a sponge cake which is filled with vanilla filling <<<
And well known as Archie Bunker's favorite snack food.
Tom
Wasn't there a TV show about forty years ago called "The Twinkie Zone" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hardy har har.
You made a funny!
Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
It's a sponge cake which is filled with vanilla filling.
The filling is sugar combined with hydrogenated vegetable oil, with a dash or two of artificial flavoring. On a nutritional scale, it ranks a few steps below chewing gum, library paste and ear wax.
I wonder why those things got less appetizing as I got older. I don't even look at them in the store anymore....
No wonder I like them so much!! The best way to eat them is with chocolate milk. I'm a TRUE junk food junkie.
...or a pothead :-)
"In the daytime I'm Mr. Natural, just as healthy as I can be. But at night I'm a Junk Food junkie, Good Lord have pity on me"
Refrain from "Junk Food Junkie
There is a low-fat variety, presumably made by lowering the degree of hydrogenation of the oil used in baking the cake.
Light Twinkies? Makes as much sense as light beer or ordering a super-size Big Mac meal with a Diet Coke. :-)
Any time they take something out, they put something else in. Take imitation mayonnaise or reduced fat peanut butter. Both examples have two to three times as much sodium as the regular counterpart.
So much for Foodtalk.:)
You should know that there is now a low fat version of the Twinkie (1 gram of fat) that is quite good!
Maybe a dash of olive oil instead of vegetable oil for a healthier snack :)
--mark
But there's more of something else that's just as bad if not worse.
Yeah, just like "diet" soda, which in lieu of sugar, has either saccharine or aspartame - both of which are literally poison.
The former can lead to cancer and the latter can lead to insanity.
Yeah, just like "diet" soda or other "sugar-free" products, which in lieu of sugar, has either saccharine or aspartame - both of which are literally poison.
The former can lead to cancer and the latter can lead to insanity.
Aspartame leads to insanity?
Apparently, if you take it in massive amounts.
The FDA did tests on both saccarin and Aspartame and determined that the average person would have to consume 400 gallons of diet soda every day to receive a dose of either sweetener to cause health problems.
That's what I thought.
One serious caveat: People with phenylketonuria (that means you excrete ketones with the phenyl chemical structure in your urine) sshould not consume aspartame, because aspartame is a combination of two amino acids, one of which is phenylalanine. People with phenylketonuria lack an enzyme, phenylalanine hydroxylase, needed to convert phenylalanine to tyrosine. The result is mental retardation and organ damage.
Go to this URL for more information: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/disease/Phenylketo.html
Now I understand what you mean. See my reply to Dan Lawrence.
NutraSweet turns to methanol, which is poison.
I've cut way, way back on soda this past year. Once in a while I'll have one, but it's always the regular variety.
Hey Steve how about some Buffalo Burgers or Rocky Mountain Oysters that are sold some places in DEN near Cherry Creek. Send some of the Oysters to Fred. Yuk Yuk Yuk
We have a restaurant by the foothills named The Fort. They serve buffalo as well as roast beef. The Summit of 8 dined there while in Denver in 1997.
Now I know why my wife thinks I'm a little whacko, the aspartame must be the cause of it. But you would have to consume a hell of lot to make a dent on your marbles, so I will have to find another excuse for my strange personality.
it ranks a few steps below chewing gum, library paste and ear wax.
It ranks above Krusty's Chew Goo Gum-like Substance.
And they have a shelf life of oh, 20 years or so.
And a half-life of 10 years! *G*
and they can be used as a excuse for murder
Especially when deep-fried!
Sounds like something Elvis would go for, especially if they were fried in butter.
Amerikanski Cannoli
It has been rumored that a man in Los Angeles spent 14 years on a diet of nothing but Twinkies, hard-boiled eggs and Scotch whiskey, and was completely healthy.
You guys have very short memories. In 1980 or so Mayor George Moscone and Councilman Harvey Milk were assasinated by an ex-councilman Dan White. He got off lightly because he used the "Twinkie Defense". That's right, he said he lost his mind and went beserk because of all the Twinkies he ate, the sugar content apparently clogging his brain and rendering him unable to cope. AND THE SON OF A BITCH GOT AWAY WITH IT. He served a few years in prison and now is a free man. No shit!
You guys have very short memories. In 1980 or so Mayor George Moscone and Councilman Harvey Milk were assasinated by an ex-councilman Dan White. He got off lightly because he used the "Twinkie Defense". That's right, he said he lost his mind and went beserk because of all the Twinkies he ate, the sugar content apparently clogging his brain and rendering him unable to cope. AND THE SON OF A BITCH GOT AWAY WITH IT. He served a few years in prison and now is a free man. No shit!
Actually, White killed himself a few years after getting out of prison.
I certainly didn't lose any sleep over it.
White's suicide, that is.
>>> Actually, White killed himself a few years after getting out of prison <<<
It was in October, 1985, and not by stuffing himself with Twinkies. I guess it was his way of saying "There, I told you I was insane!" :-)
Tom
You know guys, when I wrote my post last night I didn't realize White had killed himself. When I woke up this morning I remembered he committed suicide in the mid-80's. Just goes to show you what a good night's sleep can do.
You would have run him over with a Triplex train, right?:)
A twinkie is a yellow sponge cake shaped like a semicylinder. It is filled with vanilla cream and often sold two to a package.
Yum! must try one. May catch on over here.
Simon
Swindon UK
May catch on over here.
Especially among cardiac surgeons trying to drum up business :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Use the low fat ones - no problem!
--Mark
They don't have Twinkies in the UK? I'm surprised, I would have thought Hostess would have definitely been selling its snack cakes overseas. I'm sure Twinkees (and Ho-Hos, the cupcakes and all the other great Hostess cakes) would catch on in Britain.
Maybe in the UK they are known as something else.
Maybe. I remember eating a Kellogg's cereal for breakfast at youth hostel in London that was called Frosties. It was - not surpisingly - the same thing as Frosted Flakes.
Sounds familiar. They sell Frosties in Lithuania as well along with Corn Flakes. Larger boxes have multilingual printing while smaller boxes are in Lithuanian only. I brought an empty Frosties box home with me five years ago.
Is Tony the Tiger on the box?
Is Tony the Tiger on the box? He was on the box of Frosties that i ate from.
Maybe a subtalker stationed with NATO could drop one off to our GB friend.
Wow, no one has posted a picture yet!
Very cool.
A few more pictures and it will be time to go get my Lipitor prescription...
What's that 2nd picture? "Twinkiehendge"
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> What's that 2nd picture? "Twinkiehendge" <<<
It's proff that Twinkies have been in Britain much longer than in the U.S. :-)
Tom
Twinkiehenge. Cute, very cute.
For something even worse, there's the famous Scotch Egg - deep-fried sausage meat surrounding a hard-boiled egg.
MMMM! OH MAN! Stop it!!! I can't afford to gain another 5lb from those Yummy Gewy Deep Fried Twinkies in berry sauce. Mm Mm Mm Mm!
My cholesterol level jumps 30 points just from reading your post.
I am still plucking up the courage to try "sliders".
Simon
Swindon UK
>>I am still plucking up the courage to try "sliders"<<
Afterwards you'll be tuning the orchestra !
Bill "Newkirk"
ROTFLMAO
Isn't "Chocodiles" actually Twinkies dipped in chocolate. Although it certainly ain't good for you, it is my favorite packaged cake.
There is/was a Twinkie that was made of chocolate cake. Same creme inside. I didn't like it. There was also a twinkie. Vanilla cake with vanilla and strawberry creme. Neither lasted that long.
>>> Isn't "Chocodiles" actually Twinkies dipped in chocolate. <<<
I think so, but smaller so they can add the chocolate without raising the price.
Tom
Ok, this applies to NYCT only. All you have to do is carry around a copy of the page of the rules explaining how ancillary (sp?) equipment is not allowed (without permit), but photography is. If the officer gives you a hard time, whip out the rules, point it out. Hopefully he/she will let me go, if not I'll gladly go to the police precinct if he/she STILL persists, because I have my rules stating that it is legal. Is it really that big of a deal? In my eyes, NO! Salaam, you were totally different with the 4 train cab ride and I have no sympathy for you.
I would like to add there are exceptions to this (such as bridge/tunnel entries) although at QBP, I was able to photograph a W entering the station while a police officer was only a few feet away without any problem (them missed my chance to photograph a 7 on the other side) back in August.
Uhh, I'm saying that if Officer Harda$$ gives you a hard time...then you show him or her the rules.
I was once told top leave from the area at the edge of the upper level platform where you can get nifty pictures of trains coming out of the 60 Street tunnels. It was during the U.S. Open but not after I got a shot of the American Express logo on a redbird.
you said ...
"Salaam, you were totally different with the 4 train cab ride and I have no sympathy for you".
i say ..
i want nobodys sympathy --- the solution is to get rid of the all of
the transverse cabs ....... he ..he ...he ...he
if there were no trnasverse cabs this would not have happened !!
but (mr sympahy) you insist on saying ...
"Salaam, you were totally different with the 4 train cab ride and I have no sympathy for you."
but recently i was treatned with arrest by sheriffs if i did not stop
taking pictures of metrolink trains in the union station / no video..
just still shots !!..........what in the hell ....??...........!
several weeks ago i was met by some mta nut a woodside saying i am not
supposed to be taking pictures of the #7 train
what do you have to say " (mr sympathy) "
& i was not even shooting video at all !!
now what do you have to say Mr.??
Uhh..for the MTA nut at woodside if you HAD THE RULES you could have given it to him for a look at. That's what I have to say, and that's exactly what I WAS SAYING!!! You're looking for support and sympathy, or that's the message you are conveying to us.
but i still cant get an answer as to who out there has a current
permit for photography !!
-----the rest of your post ............................!...?
>>but i still cant get an answer as to who out there has a current
permit for photography !! <<
Maybe no one here has a photo permit, otherwise they would have spoken up.
Bill "Newkirk"
..no they dont sir !!
they are not giving them out anymore to anybody !!
so we are all breaking the BIG LAW shooting railfan photos anywhere !
this 911 post fear carp has gone way overboard big time !
thankz for showing the subway calendars on board the D types last trip i will have to order one soon!
nice shots on all of them big time !!
sincerely , salaamallah
We dont need permits
They never would have given you one anyway since you are not required to have one for your purposes. The photography policy is on the FAQ on this site, you can read it yourself. If you needed a permit, I am sure the MTA would give you one.
thats my point folks ! ...........you said ......
"If you needed a permit, I am sure the MTA would give you one". ..?
..thats why i asked who had a CURRENT VALID permit ..??
& not just in nyc .........................thankz !
But my point is you don't need a permit for personal photography. They won't give you a permit because it is not required and they have better things to do with their time. If anyone gives you trouble, go to another station and start shooting again, chances are you won't get bothered again. If you are, move yet again.
well i finished my shooting at union station & the bitch about it was
i was walking away when they bum rushed me ....etc...
i will resume shooting very soon in areas were i am a mta / la
contractor ...& the i.d. to go along with it ..!! &
as for other cities besides nyc ......i dont know ..........
do they harass anyone in WASHINGTON D.C. ??? .........!
There was one incident a poster here had within the past year where WMATA staff actually complained. I had a guy who claimed to be a retired army try to convince me it was illegal although he essentially failed. Also, an operator got on my case for recording the train number in my notepad without any credentials.
There was one incident a poster here had within the past year where WMATA staff actually complained. I had a guy who claimed to be a retired army try to convince me it was illegal although he essentially failed. Also, an operator got on my case for recording the train number in my notepad without any credentials.
I should add that now I simply write down the number when I get off the train.
????...................!.................what in the hell !!
WHATAGMOAGH !! wait a minute .................,, you said,
"an operator got on my case for recording the train number in my notepad without any credentials.
I should add that now I simply write down the number when I get off the train". ???
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattt???..........!
that is sooo much BS !! that dude should mind his own dammed beeswax!
this is the ( pardon me ) THE SHIT that i am talkin' bout here !!
man some folks need something constructive 2 do besides
get on your case for recording the train number in my notepad !!
man this ( SHIT ) ...is gone 2 far !!!!!!!!
...................................................!
He probably couldn't figure out what I was doing and as far as he knew, I was going to call Metro up and report him for something and decided if he could persuade me from not writing the number, he might not get in trouble (he had not done anything). Many operators get nervous when they see passengers writing down train numbers. Look in the archives and there are plenty of such events even prior to 9/11. If it makes the operator feel any better that I won't be reporting him since he won't see me write down the number, so be it. I highly doubt security was his concern when he saw me.
You really are a lost cause. The only kind of permit relating to photography that is given out is a Press Pass given by the NYPD. That is issued ONLY if you are part of a newspaper/media agency and you have proof (proff for you) to back it up. Please stop your bitching about photography passes and your little mishap because quite frankly, no one really cares anymore.
hold it !!
if you would cool off this subject is not just about nyc only !!
if you were not such a hothead you would remember many posted on
other cities besides nyc !! .............he he he
Salaam, who was this MTA Nut at Woodside? Was he a cop? Worker?
I ask b/c I live right in Woodside-1 stop from it and I usually take pics there. Just got 1716 there about 2 weeks ago.
#1716 7 Flushing Local
well i actually did not have too much trouble with him .....he did
appear to be a nice black man like me.
he kinda was worreid about his job morethan anything else !
i gave him he nicest possible exchange asked him could i shoot this
r -62 racing in to woodside .....then in a low tone .........."yea"
i thanked him as it almost apopeared he was going to have ah headache
i then said i was going home & he said he would not call the transit
police then i thanked him again tole him i was there for peaceful
reasons then he went away i took some more shots until the sun quit
oh well i guess i did not want him worry about me
later he asked me to go in side the control center at main street
were we talked again a he worried about my taking pictures
i was let go again with a verbal warning of some kind or another
next week in the rain i shot off my finest elevated shots ever !!
hell the redbirds wont be around very much longer & i wanted to get
as many of them as i could... (you know how i feel about em )....
the 911 post hype needs to cool off we railfan photographers are not
any kind of criminal or terrorist type....
i am like mark fienmann becoming almost discoruaged about this all
being treated like we do for taking pictures is a real shame !!
I've read several times in the web that, "Since the abolishment of the two-zone fare in mid-90s, the ridership has gone up". I am puzzelled with that because I can't find a reference about how that had worked. I'm sure that they won't charge 2 tokens because they would be dreadful. However, I can't find it from the MTA website nor at nycsubway.org. Could anyone give me a clue about that?
For years and years, there were many areas of Brooklyn where residents had no walking access to the Subways. So they had to take a bus to the subway. It was just the historical accident of where the subway had been built. Until the introduction of the metrocard, people had to pay a fare on the bus and a fare on the subway...ludicrous way to do business.
With the advent of metrocard, people can transfer from the bus to the subway without paying an additional fare.
Of course, there are still dumb people using token. They have to pay the double fare.
So it is not a "two zone" fare, but it is just paying the double fare. Well, people in other places without a free-transfer between different transport mode doing it for years.
For example, in HK, people have to pay the feeder bus to the nearby MTR station. For KCR there are something different --- they are free feeder buses for passengers but their coverage are not wide enough. Therefore some of them are benefitted but not all of them.
The downside is that some of these rides are bogus. Lazy people taking the bus one stop to/from the train delaying service.
I did that all the time. The buses were slow anyway.
For years and years, there were many areas of Brooklyn where residents had no walking access to the Subways. So they had to take a bus to the subway. It was just the historical accident of where the subway had been built. Until the introduction of the metrocard, people had to pay a fare on the bus and a fare on the subway...ludicrous way to do business.
That was an even worse problem in Queens, where outside the Rockaways, the easternmost subway station is 90+ blocks away from the end of the city.
:-) Andrew
Until the introduction of the metrocard, people had to pay a fare on the bus and a fare on the subway...ludicrous way to do business.
There was a 1/2 fare transfer between bus/trolleys and subway between 1948 and 1952. There were coin operated machines in buses and at subway stations that took a nickel and spit out a paper transfer. These were then given to the bus/trolley driver or the agent in the change booth for entry at half fare.
You're right about the 1948 - 52 period having a 1/2 fare transfer, but some additional details might be of interest. When the nickel fare was doubled in July 1948, a 12 cent combination rapid transit/surface fare was introduced for riders in the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island. That is, for 12 cents a person could ride to/from Manhattan using a subway/el and a connecting bus or trolley route.
From 1948 to 1950 it worked like this:
From subway/el to any surface line: Buy 2 cent transfer ticket at destination station inside paid zone, and present it to bus/trolley operator for continuing trip.
From privately owned buses (6 cent fare) in Queens and the Bronx): Buy 6 cent transfer ticket on surface vehicle and present it to token booth agent for subway entry at designated stations.
From NYC Board of Transportation buses and trolleys (fare 7 cents) in Queens, Brooklyn, and Staten Island: Buy 5 cent transfer ticket on surface vehicle and present it to subway station agent. Staten Island bus tickets were good at (or issued from) South Ferry or Whitehall Street stations since those bus riders obviously had the ferry ride as well.
In 1950 this combo fare went to 15 cents, on occasion of the NYC Board of Transportation bus and trolley fare going to 10 cents.
In 1952 the combo fares and transfers were eliminated. In 1953 the subway and city-owned bus fare went to 15 cents (private bus lines were either 13 or 15 cents after 1954).
Did 'Add a Ride' last longer?
I don't see why you have the authority to call those token users 'stupid'. They probably have high-end jobs and use tokens for that matter. 'Ignorant' is a better term in my dictionary.
I don't see why you have the authority to call those token users 'stupid'. They probably have high-end jobs and use tokens for that matter.
My guess is that there's an inverse relationship between income and token use. In other words, the higher a person's income, the less likely he or she is to use tokens instead of MetroCard. No, I can't articulate precisely why I believe this is the case, but somehow I'm fairly sure it's true.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the only real two fare zone on the subway which was the Rockaways. From the inception of subway service in the Rockaways (when it changed from LIRR to subways) until sometime in the early 80's I think (anyone know exactly when?) you had to pay double for the Rockaways. You had to put a token in the turnstile to exit fare control. If you didn't have the token you either lived on the subway like "Charlie of the MTA" or you went back to Broad Channel or Howard Beach. I guess if you wanted to travel from one Rockaway Station to another you had to take a bus or pay the double fare.
Another thing I remember which was different but worth mentioning was the passageway between Pacific Street and Atlantic Avenue. There was no free transfer years ago and turnstiles to go each way in the passage way. I really don't know why anyone would pay to transfer there as they could just go to Borough Hall to change. It was really annoying to go from the Pacific Street station to the LIRR as you had to go up to the street and cross Flatbush to avoid paying the extra fare.
Sorry Elias & Andy. For some reason (maybe early senility) I didn't see your posts mentioning the Rockaways when I said "I'm surprised nobody mentioned the only real two fare zone on the subway which was the Rockaways."
To answer your earlier post - the double fare to the Rockaways ended on Sept. 1, 1975, when the base fare rose from 35 to 50 cents. The Rockaway fare went down to 50 from 70 cents.
Once upon a time there was a two fare zone on the subway.
It was only for riders in the Rockaways.
They had to pay an additional token to exit the train, or pay two tokens to get on. This was abolished a long long time ago.
Elias
>>> They had to pay an additional token to exit the train, or pay two tokens to get on <<<
Of all those responding to the original question, you are the only one explaining it correctly. In addition, anyone entering in the Rockaways paying two tokens, not going to the "mainland" could get one token refunded at the token booth upon exit in the Rockaways. The extra fare amounted to a surcharge for traveling to and from the Rockaways.
Tom
Of all those responding to the original question, you are the only one explaining it correctly.
The OP asked about a practice that was abolished in the 90's. The practice of charging two fares for trips to and from the Rockaways ended in the 70's. Free intermodal transfers were instituted in the 90's. That's what the OP was referring to.
>>> The OP asked about a practice that was abolished in the 90'sThe practice of charging two fares for trips to and from the Rockaways ended in the 70's. Free intermodal transfers were instituted in the 90's <<<
But he also asked about a two zone fare, which lack of intermodal transfers are not. One could take a subway to a point and then take a bus, and after that another subway paying three fares and not have gotten any farther than they could have by paying one fare for a roundabout subway trip with free transfers. Zone fares have a geographic base, intermodal transfers do not.
Which brings up a question. At the time a subway ride to the Rockaways cost two tokens, was there bus service there from the city, and was there a premium fare paid for the bus service?
Tom
I think the only buses to the Rockaways (excluding MSBA from Nassau) were private line buses such as Jamaica Buses and I really don't know their fare structure.
There also used to be a Q21A Green Line Bus that ran from New Lotts Ave on the 2 line to Euclid Ave on the A. Down Pitkin Ave to Cross Bay Blvd to the Rockaways and out to Mott Ave.
I think I confused Jamaica Buses with Green Lines. Which company goes down Flatbush over the Marine Bridge?
That would be the Q35 Green Bus from Flatbush/Nostrand to B116 and Beach Channel Drive. The Q22 also a Green Bus runs across the Rockaways. And the Q113 or the Q111 both Jamaica Buses that runs from Mott Ave to Jamaica via 5 towns. There is also a Q22A bus that is a one bus shuttle not worth mentioning.
Only the Q113 from Jamaica Buses run to/from the Rockaways. The Q111 goes as far as Laurelton/Rosedale. Dont forget the Q53 "express" bus from Triboro.
You're right, strictly speaking, but people who had to take a bus to the subway were said to be in two-fare zones. Free intermodal transfers were heralded as the end to the two-fare zone.
[...for riders in the Rockaways. They had to pay an additional token to exit the train, or pay two tokens to get on.]
But wouldn't that have meant a TRIPLE-fare (two to enter, one to leave) for rides WITHIN the Rockaways?
In the mid 1990's Metrocard was introduced. One of the advantages of it was the ability to transfer from Bus to train. Thereby making a 2 fare commute the price of 1.
I don't know who you're quoting, but whoever it is has it backwards. It wasn't a "two-zone fare"; it was a two fare zone. The two fare zone was everywhere in the city beyond walking distance to the subway or which required riding two bus lines between which there was no free transfer.
In New York (with the exception of Rockaway IND trains between 1956 and 1975) it was not so much a two zone fare as multi-modal fare. You could always ride the subway for one fare from the top of the Bronx to Coney Island, but if your trip required transfer to a bus at any station it meant an additional full fare (some minor exceptions in Brooklyn - High Street, Marcy Ave., Rockaway Parkway - where buses were traversing old elevated routes abandoned years ago).
At major bus-subway interfaces in Queens, Brooklyn, or the Bronx this had the appearance of a second zone, because the traveller was going beyond the end of the subway to the far reaches of the city. Keep in mind that any trip requiring a subway and then a bus also required two fares. Example would be from Mount Sinai Hospital to Lincoln Center - 96th Xtown Bus to Broadway, then #1 train. Manhattan, in particular, is full of such typical trips involving a N-S subway then a crosstown bus.
Thanks for getting me right for the "two-fare" zone instead of "two zone" fare. However, is that mean I could start a journey outside the subway boundary to another place which is also not accessible by subway and paying $1.50 (on MetroCard) even though I transfer 2 times and take 3 stages on that journey -- bus-subway-bus now?
With a few expections such as the Canarsie bus that lets you off inside the subway's fare control system, bus-subway-bus is going to cost you 2 fares even now.
The easy way around this restriction is to buy an unlimited Metro Card - $4 one day pass, $17 weekly, $63 30 days. That way you can ride as much as you want without worrying about single ride restrictions.
BC-FL--TampaStreetcars 10-20 0223 BC-FL--Tampa Streetcars,190
Tampa's streetcar system running again
pettambb-jcp
TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -- This city's downtown streetcar system is back in operation, more than 50 years after its original streetcars were scrapped.
Seven canary-yellow cars powered by 600 volts of electricity clanged along from the Ybor City entertainment district to downtown Tampa after being unveiled Saturday morning.
The $53 million TECO Line Streetcar System is modeled after the one dismantled in 1946, which went into service in the late 19th century.
"I've been waiting 18 years," said Harris Mullen, co-founder of the Tampa and Ybor City Street Railway Society. "It's pretty much like we envisioned."
Organizers expect 950 passengers to ride the 2.3 miles of street rails each day.
The project is funded by grants and other sources from the city.
"It's a blast to see it done," said Michael English, president of Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., the nonprofit group that will operate the system.
It brings dramatic changes to Tampa by linking downtown and Ybor City, he said. Another mile of track eventually will extend to the heart of downtown, he added.
"It's what urban design is about: connectivity," English said.
Beginning Monday, fares are $1.25 for a one-way, 22-minute ride.
(Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
APTV 10-20-02 1022EDT
Is this system being aimed at commuters, or is it just a tourist thing?
do you have a website link to this ??
..i would like to see it
http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/tampa.htm
Tampa is a good choice for a re-invented trolley, lots of the folks there actually remember riding one back in "the good old days".
I wish them good luck.
Thurston,
I'll go one better then folks that rememberriding the trolleys.
A graduate of the BERA Training Course, Class of 1985, now retired
and residing in Tampa, informed me, he will be a "Trolley Operator"
on the new system. How's that for "turn the handles" from Museum
to a New Operation.
;| ) Sparky
That's a good one !
Will there ever be any use made of the shell station at S 4th St.? I sometimes even wonder if the local authorities even know it exists. What shape is it in anyway?
Will there ever be any use made of the shell station at S 4th St.?
We should all live so long. After the city reduces the welfare population to <5% and cuts medicaid expenses by half, maybe someone will dust off some of the old plans.
Where exactly is this shel? I have read the "IND Second System" section on this site, but I still can't figure out where under S. 4th St is it.
At Broadway Station on the G line. The booth is is the sound end of the station at Broadway. South 4th St would be about 3-4 blocksnorth of Broadway.
Broadway's mezzanine has had a new wall built at the North end of the current mezzzanine. The space contains employee faciliities as well as doors to the rest fo the mezzanine which was a full length mezzanine. The platforms have had stairways removed at the North end. The connection to whatever is or is not there for the "South 4th Station" is at the north end of the G mezzzanine's closed off portion.
At Broadway Station on the G line. The booth is is the sound end of the station at Broadway. South 4th St would be about 3-4 blocksnorth of Broadway.
it's at the north end of the station. I use to live two stations south of there[Myrtle ave],so SOMETIMES I use to get off at B way to walk around and explore....you can see a spot where there was once a stairway on the norhtbound platform,and a closed off area on the southbound side. The station sits on the roof[so called upperlevel].
Once upon a time there used to be another booth at Broadway station. About 1/2 to 2/3 of the way from the main booth at Broadway to South 4th. Maybe this what you saw. I doubt if there was a stairway for the South 4th Station.
i know about the ''other booth''.My folks used it on a number of occations[with me in tow as a kid,so we're talkin years, pal]
The time I saw the booth, it was just a pile of rubble. That was about November 1989. Considering the 1967 TA phone book doesn't have the booth listed, I agree it's years.
didn't i just say I rode past this station EVERYDAY FOR YEARS? My former home station being Myrtle-Willowby ?Broadway [being in the AREA, WAS really just a three quarter mile ride or walk up Marcy avenue]gezz!!!Did OR DO you live in BED STY/Bushwick to tell me what I thought I saw?
The MTA should least it out if it doesn't need it. It would be a good place for an "underground" bar and disco, if someone had the capital to install all the required emergency exits. Down below, no one would notice the noise, and the patrons could get right on the subway to go home.
Hey, what the hell gives with what's going on in New York. I kept hearing about this new $2.00 fare that commuters will be hit with. To make matters worse I'm now hearing about an East River toll, and a raise in parking fees for those who commute. That's unadulterated garbage. First of all, many people who live in neighborhoods adjacent to the subway system are not exactly rich and to top that off by hitting those who drive with a toll and exacting extra tribute from those who have to park----well that's carrying things to an extreme if you ask me. To hear all this talk you'd get the impression that it is all no sweat, the people can afford it. Well many people would be hard pressed to afford it. Is New York's finances in such pathetic shape that these things are necessary. I was in New York for six days and saw full restaurants, subways, theaters, and scenic attractions. I don't live there but it seems like someone is trying to put something over on the populace.
Blame should be placed squarely on one of the following:
1) The Dodgers leaving Brooklyn
2) They scrapped the D-Types
3) The closing of Steeplechase or Freedomland
4) The disappearance of stickball in the streets
5) The disappearance of Fred Peritore 50 years ago
6) The Journal-American went belly up
7) The advent of the full width cab and nemisis Salaamallah
8) El Nino and a bit of acid rain
9) Hey Paul's R-9 cab in his apartment
10) Neil Diamond left Brooklyn and became famous
11) Doug Diamond stayed in Brooklyn and became a SubTalker
12) Maybe some of the above, but I'm not sure which
Bill "Newkirk"
Hell with all those choices Newkirk, the decent thing you could do is at least give me a hint. Number five would be great for the ego but I can eliminate that, but Salaam would be a good bet to be the guilty party. The poor guy seems to get blamed for every misdeed on Subtalk.
>>Hell with all those choices Newkirk, the decent thing you could do is at least give me a hint.<<
#11 is the obvious choice Fred !
Bill "Newkirk"
What about Saddam Hussein? Shouldn't we be blaming him for something?
Yeah, he tried to hurt "daddy" ... otherwise, ain't seen ANY proof of his involvement. Not that he isn't an evil person and deserves to be "taken out" but I doubt he had anything to do with harming New York. Texas, maybe.
Who needs proof? He's from the axis of evil, and he's Saddam. That right there makes him guilty of anything we accuse him of :P
The most pathetic part of it all was Shrub sitting there at the podium, trying to explain how he was connected to Al Qaeda, saying "he tried to kill my DADDY" ... no disrespect intended, but geez. He couldn't say "he attempted to assasinate the president" or something sufficiently statesmanlike? Sounded like "he stolt my bible and raped my dog" ... geez.
Like I said, Saddam needs to be taken down. But blowing the kwap out of Iraq SHOULD require some proof. What they MIGHT consider is once they nab that moron down in Virginia and Maryland, drop him in Baghdad as his sentence ... along with Bush's economic advisors.
>>"he stolt my bible and raped my dog" ... <<
Bomb Iraq!!!! Let's show that bible stealing, dog raping looney we mean business!
You know, the thing about Reagan was, when he gave a talk you could count on being entertained for 2 hours, if nothing else. Same goes for Clinton, though his speeches almost always had more in the way of content (yet remained equally entertaining). Bush-41 and Jimmy Carter were so-so, but the latter was a genuine, honest good guy. But Bush-43 - make no mistake about it, he couldn't carry a script if it were krazy glued to his arse.
I say hey, if there was definitive evidence linking Saddam to 9/11, just present it and we can go bomb the crap out of Iraq - no need for UN approval or appeasing the Swiss and Norwegians, because we were attacked. Otherwise we have to work with the UN to try and find a resolution.
Make no mistake about it (heheh), weapons inspections are not an end in themselves; they are merely the means to an end, namely containment and disarmament of Saddam's regime. So unless they can be conducted in a manner which assuredly would achieve the stated goals, we're just kidding ourselves.
Same goes for war or simply "whacking" Saddam. Who replaces him, his son Uday who's worse than he is? Do we have a long occupation by the US military to restore stability? Are we prepared to do that, or will it be another half-assed occupation that leaves things worse off than they are now (hard as that may be to imagine)?
Yep ... couldn't agree more. However, this is gonna careen way off topic for this place and we should stop. Still, fully agree.
Did anybody see SNL on 10/5 (Matt Damon/Bruce Springsteen) or 10/12 (Sarah Michelle Gellar/Faith Hill)? One of them had a fake commercial where everybody was blaming Saddam for domestic problems.
>>> Is New York's finances in such pathetic shape that these things are necessary. <<<
Yes.
Tom
(>>> Is New York's finances in such pathetic shape that these things are necessary. <<<
Yes. Tom )
Yes, we are facing a crisis, and most people on this board are well informed enough to see it coming. I'm surprised, however, at these messages from California which is almost as bad off as we are.
States all over the country spent stock market bubble money as if it would last forever, then drew down reserves and borrowed to get through this (election year). After the election, the bad news is coming. California is almost a bad off as NY. Some low tax, redneck states are worse off -- except that a tax increase in a low tax state is not the same thing as it is here where taxes are already high.
Everytime there is a budget surplus, governments do not seem to be able to put some of it aside for those times when they can't get get enough money because of a recession. They never heard of saving for a "rainy day", so they never set up the so called "Rainy Day" fund just in case.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, politicians stampede to the cameras to proclaim that they can provide a larger tax cut than the other guy. When the ante is upped sufficiently, the bank goes broke. Back in the days of semi-practical government, there was a "rainy day fund" for times like these. However, these aren't your typical times either. New York got assaulted by some nasty people who whacked a couple of buildings, then the republican house in DC came back and took out our kneecaps by sticking us with the bill. And we'll forget all about the "economic advisors" of the current "regime" and THEIR part of New York's little mess.
There WAS a rainy day fund. But terrorists and republicans *ATE* it before it rained. :(
and low and behold,there came the wise words from a old old old man from the old old old hills,from the land of 'SELKIRKVILLE'.His eyes told most of the story,as we huddled next ot the warm camp fire.we could hear ''betsy' in the back,chewin' on her cud,it was so quiet.And that bell,that damn bell,she wore.the more she chewed ,the more it went ''clong clong''......LOL just bustin on my man!!! howit tretin ya? jett yet?
Yo yo yo, man! Pass that damned thing over here. I need a hit too, ya know. Heh. Been a got damm zoo the past 8 days ... Branford, customeros, visits from friends from the Bronx of all sorts (My old buddy Pete and his lady and our very own Big EdIRTmanL who just left here about an hour ago headed west on the Gray running MUTT because surprise surprise, the costs of the Joe Bruno Train station forced Amtrak to cancel some trains because they couldn't afford to run them anymore) ...
Bessie's fine, she just tipped for the night, CSX is chugging along famously and I need to fall over and catch up to many a night of WWF Extreme short sheeting of sleep. But yeah, keeping it as real as it gets here in Fantasyland. :)
Can you get over it though? Folks can't figure out *WHY* New York got flushed down the toilet? WOWSERS. Then again, many who suffer through historical events don't realize they're IN them I s'pose. Heh. Moo!
LOL....IM GONNA GIT YOU!!!Here I am,all relaxed from a nice day off[yeah,I get one of those once and awhile]and you come along and push that in my head for the evening!I guess its payback.... okay I'll mull over it for a hot min....'' tick tock''...
C'mon, bro ... home from work, time to wake up the brain again. :)
Ed Davis[the guy who wrote the book?]And check this out.. I got a friend that works over there at the new station... and he sez the place is fallin apart!!!!!Can you believe that sheet??!!stuff malfunctioning,blah ,blah blah..... didnt get into details the way I like em',but just to know that the BRONZE PALACE is fallin'into shambles[what ?so soon? no!ooohh aaahhh!!!]just makes my butt burn!!!!
Yeah, when Ed's train pulled in, the escalator was stuck in the rolling DOWN position, forcing folks to have to climb the stairs all the way up the hill had we not FIXED it. I grabbed ahold of one of the Amtrak guys and we managed to stop it and throw it into reverse after a few tries but the gears refused to mesh properly and it took a few goes at it before it finally turned around.
Now I've got better things than to hang out at Joe Bruno's phallic station to repair the equipment, was happy to do it because Unca Ed was coming and he was already a hurting buckaroo after his whirlwind tour ... did have a chuckle though with the poor schlumps wtuck working there while we were waiting for the train. They STILL didn't pay for the clock that one of the Amtrak clerks bought for the station because CDTA never figured out it'd be handy to have a clock in there so the crews would know when a train would be coming ... what a MESS.
And of course, Joe Bruno is now shaking down Amtrak for ANOTHER free station up in Saratoga. Meanwhile, four trains have been dumped from the schedule out to your home town of Schenectady - the shakedown for Bruno's penis hurt Amtrak SO bad, they had to cut the number of trains substantially to pay for it. :(
But yeah, saw with my own eyeballs what a mess $58 million bought at a time when we can't afford books for the schools. And you might have also heard that the Albany Diamond Dogs baseball team has gone bankrupt and Heritage Park is going to be bulldozed for a nursing home now that Joe Bruno's baseball stadium in East Greentush is getting Albany's money ... republicans eat their young. :(
They can't even run buses on time,what made them think they could build a train ''shead''?motherless sons of .......
There's busses? Where? :)
They should stick the terrorists with the bill for the damages, I WISH!!
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, I don't think we'd get too much value confiscating their dirt and rocks and body lice. :(
Dirt and body live are of more value than terrorists. Terrorists are the lowest form of life in the human world.
#3 West End Jeff
You got that mostly right Larry, but there is no talk of a toll on our freeways. We can go by car anywhere we want and it doesn't cost us anything but gas money---which come to think of it is pretty damn high out here. Still, we have the fifth largest economy in the world and we came out of a bad recession out here in the early 90's We are a resilient people and will punish the politicos who try to strongarm us with unreasonable taxes. You remember Proposition 13 out here in 1978? We took that overtaxing problem in our own hands and stuffed it to the politicians.
Is New York's finances in such pathetic shape that these things are necessary. I was in New York for six days and saw full restaurants, subways, theaters, and scenic attractions. I don't live there but it seems like someone is trying to put something over on the populace.
I can't imagine that any other state squanders money with quite as much elan as the Vampire State.*
* = thanks to Larry L. for use of that term.
Here's the deal, Unca Fred ... seems these nasty airplanes hit a couple of buildings downtown, made them fall down and we ended up going to war. A certain party whose mascot likes to eat peanuts *ATE* all of ours, promising to make New York WHOLE but instead, stiffed us and made New York HOLE ... so WE got stuck with the bill while da Shrub and that party whose mascot like speanuts STIFFED us.
New York's broke, our Shrub told us to carry on with our lives, but keep our bedsheets nice and wet at all times, and a large number of people packed up and ran away in fear. Every OTHER state that WASN'T attacked got money, we got some chump change, but nowhere NEAR enough to foot da bills and here we are, having to empty our *OWN* pockets because New York, even though attacked, is a BLUE state and can go to hell. So here we are ...
Sorry to put it this way, but it's the TRUTH ... we got shafted by the party whose mascot likes peanuts and voting day is just two weeks away. Guess which levers we gonna pull? :)
I'm still trying to figure this out.
On September 11, 2001, the United States of America was attacked.
So why is most of the recovery bill going to the City of New York, not the United States of America?
Easy. On September 11, 2001 NEW YORK CITY was attacked along with the Pentagon. "America" was not attacked, "America" is places like Council Bluffs, Iowa (not attacked), Greenville North Carolina (not attacked), Oak Park, Illinois (not attacked), yada yada. The so-called "money" was insufficient and not delivered pretty much as yet and what money had been promised just ain't there. Meanwhile, the bills came in.
But it was New York City that was attacked (ONLY civilian attack, Pentagon is sorta military) ... then there's the matter of the economy which also took its toll on New York and that's part of it also.
Perfect solution to all this though would be to drop Bush's Economic Advisors on Baghdad, Iraq would fold in a week without a shot fired.
I was thinking of dropping Jerry Falwell... but I think the Geneva Conventions outlawed the commission of such atrocities...
It's not NYC or America that was attacked. The citizens of about 90 nations were among the casualties of the 9/11 attacks, making the attack nothing other than an attack against all those who do not fall in line with bin Laden's extremist fundamentalist views. All 3,000 people killed that day, in bin Laden's view and that of the 19 terrorists, were enemy combatants. If not, as Ricky said he's got some 'splainin' to do, because the killing of noncombatants is explicitly forbidden by the Qu'ran. Suicide is too, but that's another story.
You really think the attack was targeted specifically at New York City alone, not at the United States (of which New York City is a part)?
Absolutely! Otherwise, they might have gone after Weehawken, Miami or Dallas. THAT'S "America" these days, New York City doesn't matter to the rest of the country. If the terrorists REALLY wanted to attack "America" then they would have taken out Six Flags or DisneyWorld or Vegas. :)
So you think the attack on the Pentagon was entirely unrelated to the attacks on the World Trade Center?
The terrorists attacked the United States through three of its prominent buildings, two of which were convenient (to them) in that they alone were filled with thousands of people.
Wow ... OK, this will be my LAST comment on this. The Pentagon was a MILITARY site, World Trade was a CIVILIAN site. The POINT is being entirely ignored here though, New York City was devastated financially by what happened here, my issue is why is KEOKUK and 250 other US cities getting federal homeland defense money when New York City has NOT been made whole yet? Let's cleanup after the ACTUAL attacks which already occurred before handing out folding money elsewhere. THAT was my point ...
We've been screwed first by those phuckers and then by our OWN congress. Senate voted to make us whole, REPUBLICANS phucked us. Until they're on the list of terrorist organizations also, they're the enemy in MY book ... but that was my point ...
Kevin, get hold of yourself. New York needs help, sure, but you can't just Marshall Plan it on the fly. Unfortunately it takes time, time that people get impatient waiting for. I happen to love New York City, the town of my birth and formative years. I just think I'm both more of a realist and an optimist that you are, at least right now. New York will come back and come back strong, but there are so many other priorities now that, again, it will take some time before all marbles are in place.
Hopefully in January, that'll finally happen, once the new congress is in place. :)
I need some new marbles...some of my old ones fell out and got lodged underneath Readbird seating. Hope the fishies like em.
Just in the blue hell is your *&^&$% point?
That the entire United States should share the costs of recovery from this terrorist attack on the United States.
In 1993, a combination of home-made AmPho and detonation materials was triggered in an explosion at the WTC garage. Thankfully, detonation was insecure and with a minimal loss of life. The same combination of materiel, courtesy of the book 'Turner Diaries...the Day they came for my Guns' resulted in Oklahoma City. New York City WTC was a target, Washingtons Pentagon was a target and Lord knows what else. Everyone shares in the loss...and the expense. Our lives will never be the same again...this was not December 7th...and our freedoms may be placed in jeopardy. Many of us in NYCTA remain vigilant for unusual activities and that is how European 'taggers' were caught at Concourse gates. 'Observe and report' is what we have GOs for. Just don't report me for unusual activity...I prefer to 'slack out and relax my lunch in one of my cars versus running about for the half hour.' Hey, R142s have a 'convienence outlet' you can plug in to...toaster, microwave, stereo or VCR...just like home!
Love the work, CI Peter
My APOLOGIES! I didn't quite understand where you were going with "attack on the United States" there ... and the motivation behind my own words is listening to these damned politicians in congress whining that "New York doesn't deserve the money, MY district deserves the money, so SCREW New York" ... NOW I get where you were going, my apologies. I thought you were defending the republican congress and their nonsense which now has all of us New Yorkers SHAFTED with taxes to pay for what they refused to ...
Yes, I'm familiar with your take on politics, and I largely agree with you, so I was more than a bit surprised by this exchange. Apologies for not clarifying myself until now.
Fortunately, just two weeks and a day before I can put the political hand puppet away for another two years. But yeah, fora few responses there, I thought you were spouting the GOP party line, "screw New York and everybody IN New York." It's REALLY gotten me royally honked off when I saw my property and school taxes this year - MORE than half my income right there, 40% and 30% hikes respectively. No WONDER 20% of the population hit the silk this year. :(
I think we all agree that more money should be allocated to New York City and if there was a big enough outcry more would have been done by now, even though these kinds ofthings do take time. If the Republican House is responsible, then so is the Democratic Senate and here's why. You even heard of Intercongress Conferences. They take place all the time when a bill is being debated. One house authors a bill but it must pass the other house before it can be sent to the President. Certainly a monetary bill for New York could be made of some sort with a little give and take on both sides. Then if such a bill is passed and Bush vetoes it all the shit that can fly goes up. If such a bill was passed it is doubtful the President would veto it given the high regard New York is held by the rest of the country right now. That's right Selkirk, you heard it straight. September 11 turned New York City into a hero for most of America.
Yep, they did all that and Dickwad Armey, J.C.Watts, Tom DeLay (what a PERFECT name) and the other members of the peanut gallery nixed the whole deal. Doesn't matter now, they've all gone HOME. State budget will be finished and ready to be submitted for the "State of the State" a few days after New Years and we are SCROOD ... a bit too late.
For what it's worth though buddy - I was a political reporter and analyst, know the entire drill right down to conference committee, conferences and policy committees. Been there, done that, know the sidewalk act. We've been phucked ... pure and simple. Now it's the voter's turn in this state to show our appreciation.
But don't mind me, in two more weeks, all I'll care about is Arnines again. :)
Come on Kevin, that's BS and you know it. New York is the largest and greatest city in America, the central hub of business and industry in the country. What better symbol to target than New York? What other single entity in the country would bring more publicity to their sick cause than New York. Certainly not Coral Gables, or Allentown, Sheyboygan, or even Disneyland. As far as money is concerned, Congress allocates money, not the President, and if memory serves me correctly your Dems control the Senate and both of New York's Senators are Dummycrats, and both have big mouths and both look forcheap publicity. The fact is, they haven't brought any pork to New York because they are loud mouth and little else. Besides, to knock the GOP is specious at best because both the previous mayor and the current one are Republicans and that party was elated last year when the greatest victory in the off-odd year elections came in the Mayoral race in New York City. If blame is going to be allocated, at least allocate it fairly with an eye to reality and the facts.
Well, lemme put it this way. When Florida got hit with hurricanes (red state) and the southwest got nailed with fires, floods (red states) and the midwest suffered from flooding that wiped out MANY farms (all red states also) Bubba sent in FEMA, money was dispatched by a (then) "democratic congress" to make them whole EVEN IF THEY VOTED WRONG. So what you're saying is that ONLY Americans who voted correctly under THIS regime are entitled to be made whole after a disaster.
OK, make checks payable to New York State Tax and Finance and we'll call it a push. :)
Fred: First off the term is Democrats not dummycrats. There are a whole host of nicknames that we can come up with for the GOP but I will forgo to use them. Another thing, both New York Senators are Democrats and the Governor and Mayor are Republicans. They got there because the good people of New York, both Democrats and Republicans among others elected them to those offices. They did not shot anybody or march into town and seize control of the government. If you have a problem with that take it up with the good voters of New York. I sure as hellfire did not agree with the highly dubious and extra-legal way that whats-his name used to get appointed (not elected) to the White House. Yet I have to accept it and live with it and keep my tongue in check , the same way that you have to accept the fact that the Yankees have won 38 American League Pennants and 26 World Series and will go on winning. The Anaheim boys did very good this year and won fair and square and I wish them well. (Notice I don't say that I hate them.) However I am rooting for the San Francisco Giants who after all are displaced New Yorkers.
To respond to what Kevin said; New York took it on the chin (or rather in the back) on September 11 and there no denying that it hurt. This city never broke and never buckled during the attack. Our police and fire departements loss hundreds of men that day and never disolved into chaos.After each collapse they got up dusted themselves off and got back into the fight even though they carried a tremendous burden of grief. Our citizens both Democrats and Republicans never broke and ran in mass panic trampling over others. The leadership shown by our mayor, the kindness and generosity of our people, the courage and fortitude of our police and firemen proved that although the Twin Towers are gone New York has never stood so tall.
By and large the recovery effort has been handled by New York City and New York State although rescue workers came from throughout the world to volunteer in the recovery efforts at Ground Zero. So long as New York City remains a Democratic town even though we have a republican mayor we will see very little in the way of aid from Washington. The last time we went there for help Gerry Ford told us were to go. So we pulled ourselves up by the bootstraps and got ourselves back in the race.
This past Tuesday my wife and I drove down to Washington to vist the Pentagon and pay our respects to another group of brave people who died for democracy. We spoke to some fine young men of the US Army who were standing guard duty there. One of them was on duty on 9-11. You may not be aware of it but my wife was on the 69 floor of No 1 WTC when the first plane hit. Hopefully next summer we will get out to Shanksville to vist the heros there.
Its better that we handle this ourselves rather them sell our soul for the few pennies Washington will deign to throw at us.
Apologies for going way off topic but this one cut a little to close to home. If you want to make a difference get our there and vote in two weeks, join a political party and contribute to the canidate of your choice. Over 3000 people died on September 11,2001 because there are those in this world that would kill us for our beliefs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of the reasons for my own passions about it is that I lost 12 friends when the towers came down, most of them state workers that I used to work with, the rest fire and police. The slap in the face out of the republican house after the democratic senate agreed to help bail out New York from the foreign policy vacuum ... well ...
I guess we shouldn't tell Unca Fred that Bloomberg is really a democrat and Pataki is a Rockefeller liberal republican? Nah. :)
But what REALLY frosts my cereal is that THIS "regime" in DC believes that only SOME Americans deserve a hand whereas the prior administration believed that EVERYBODY was an American, even if they voted for the other guy. That really honks me off. Some Americans are more equal than others. Gack. :(
Believe me Selkirk, if the neglect of New York continues my Congressman, David Dreyer, will hear plenty from me and so will my collegues in the Arcadia Republicans, and those I have contact with at the RNC. They will not get a dime from me if that continues. I happen to think, though, that you are wrong. New York will eventually get their share of the pork they deserve. Again, let me state that between a powerful governor, two strong senators and a star mayor those four should be able to get some pressure put on the powers that be in D.C. Being an optimist I think it will get done.
The truth will be revealed in about two weeks ... we'll see. What I've been hearing though isn't happiness. NYS Senate has to come back tomorrow or the day after because their estimates were SO far off, there isn't the money to pay THEM. You KNOW that'll get fixed. :)
Your Congressman in Arcadia does not give a damn about NYC, noone there votes for him, so why should he care. It is about true of 90 pct of Congress on both sides of the aisle. He wants Pork for his district and no where else.
I don't disagree with anything you said but Dummycrats was said with tongue in cheek. As for your better half, bless her and thank God she was able to make it through. I'm surprised she isn't still shook to her foundations over what she went through. New York will come back and will eventually get her share of the money. The city is too important to be allowed to go down the drain.
Fred: Thank you for your kind words about my wife. I know you to be a good and decent man with strong and honest opinions which I respect. One of the disadvantages of sub-talk is that it is not always possible to see when the other person is speaking tongue-in-cheek. While I do not regret my vist to the Pentagon it did bring the 9-11 emotions very close to the surface and left me a little bit raw emotionally. While 9-11 touched many throughout the country it had a very personal impact for those living in New York, Washington and Shanksville. Say this much for the cowardly bastards who hijacked those planes, (Notice I don't call them rats as that would be an insult to the thousands of honest rodents living in the Montague Street Tunnel.) It was the most cosmopolitan murder in history cutting accross all social,racial,economic,religious, and politcal lines.
Too often nowadays reasoned discourse gives way to 10 second sound bits and character assasination. Listen to campaign ad by any Republican and he will tell you that his Democratic opponent is a lying,cheating SOB would would steal a blind man's cane. Listen to any campaign ad by a Democrat and he will tell you that his Republican opponent is a lying,cheating SOB who would steal a blind man's cane. It doesn't have to be this way. Just look at the reasoned and intelligent debates that took place between John F Kennedy and Richard M Nixon during the 1960 Presidential Campaign.
Just so this post won't be totally off-topic I did notice that the train operators on WMATA seems to be adopting New York style "Subway-Speak" for on-board train announcements. Its that particular unintelligable language which is not understood in any of the 182 natons of the UN but is the mother tongue at all 460 (+/-) subway stations of New York.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
You really think the attack was targeted specifically at New York City alone, not at the United States (of which New York City is a part)?
you guys a openin' a can of worms that some on this board won't be able to handle....
On Friday at 3:45 on the uptown 6 platform at 125st, the Garbage Train pulled in. It stayed there for about 10 minutes. Oddly enough, when the guy opened a door, a not-so-bright lady wanted to get on the train and demanded that they let her on. They were pulled by two R-127 work Motors. I did get a good look inside the motor and noticed that there were no seats for the crew to sit in. Why were there no seats ordered with these cars? Also the doors were manually operated. This is the first time that I've seen a manually opearted subway car door. There wasn't an operating cab, just a division. Do these Work Motors have trip cocks on both sides of the car for both A and B division operation? Am I correct in assuming that the R127 work motors are the first of their kind in being dedicated work motors from design?
Thanks for reading!!!!
are you sure they were not R134s?
They looked like R62's. I could be wrong on the R-type though.
Isn't the R134 based on the R62?
Yes, and so is the R-127.
David
They should have let the lady ride.
"If you empty out at least two trash cans at each stop, you can ride this train. We'll even give you a voucher for a free token."
:0)
I saw the garbage train too, in the daylight !
I was on the (F) platform at Stillwell Ave a day before the (F) and (Q) were shut out. Coming on the (F) tracks was, sure enough, the garbage train with R-127 (or 134) at both ends pulling flat cars with dumpsters.
It happened so fast, I couldn't get my camera out of the bag.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok, so the R62 based work motors have trip cocks on both sides.
I saw the same consist about 15-30 minutes before you did, on the uptown express track at Grand Central. It sat there for a few minutes, with revenue trains backing up behind it. I'm surprised it's scheduled to run at all during the rush hour shoulders, especially on a line like the 4/5/6.
The 6 had to switch to the 4/5 side of the platform at 125st.
All garbage trains had to be removed from 239 yard on Friday, before this weekends GO's went into effect. One 239 "Refuse Train" was based out of 207th for the weekend. I don't know where any of the others went for the weekend. This is probably why you saw it out so early.
Interesting. But it was picking up garbage (I think -- it was at the other end of the platform, so I couldn't see it well, but it sat in the station for a few minutes), and it was going north.
OK, OK, this is not Bustalk. And there probably is a post about this on Bustalk.
But you guys need to read this:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4328754.htm
They call them 'bendy buses'. We call them Artics. Those gosh-darn Brits! ;-)
What I found interesting was this quote -
'Practical passengers say a fare-collecting conductor moves a bus faster than the pay-as-you board model.'
Imagine if we had those fare-collecting personnel on our buses. It would move oh-so faster! I wouldn't have to hear that 'BEEP-BEEP' from those fareboxes. But I'm nitpicking here! -_-
They should keep at least some of those old "Routemaster" buses for historical purposes.
#3 West End Jeff
The Routemasters are somewhat past their sell-by date, but it will be sad to see them go. Ignore journalist's talk about "rickety" and "juddering" and "lurches" though. Maintenance for all London vehicles these days is terrible, and the lurching is probably the fault of the driver as much as anything.
If anyone is in London, and wants to travel on Routemasters at their best, travel on the route 8 from Liverpool Street Station to New Oxford Street (Centre Point) on a SATURDAY. The vehicles are kept in good condition on these routes, and the streets in the City (the financial area) are deserted, and drivers really put their feet down. Its not much slower than taking the Central Line!
The rumour of the death of the red double-decker London bus is an exaggeration. First, London buses are still red. Second, many brand new double-deckers have entered service in the last few years. (Though admittedly the proportion of single-deckers has been rising for a long time.) Third, articulated buses are only proposed for certain routes. Finally, the Routemasters are probably the oldest buses still running in ordinary service in the UK - even they can't last for ever! But just to get back on topic - the A class stock that runs on the Metropolitan line is about the same age as the Routemaster (older than most of the surviving Routemasters, actually) so you will still be able ride on vintage rolling stock in London!
Yes, the A stock may be 40 to 42 years old, but you wouldn't know it by looking at it, either inside or outside, looks comparatively new, and rides like stock half its age or newer.
wayne
I understand that the G/O on the 2/5 between 180th and 149th is to replace signals, I assume with the newer BMT type, (i.e. green over yellow=diverging rather than red over green.) However, observing the signals during the week, I noticed that the old signals seem to be there. I hope this doesn't mean the TA will be taking another month to finish.
More like months. These wekend GOs are to run cable from the signals to the tower.
Can this also be said for the 7's resignaling work?
First, on the 2/5 the old signals will remain until the new ones go in. They are doing a ton of work on these G.O.s -- pulling cable, installing track, etc because the project was delayed by the disaster and resulting diversions.
As for the Flushing Line, it will be going on for a long time. It will take another 1 1/2 years to finish the first part. Then they are doing the second part, which is expected to start soon and take four years. Then they are doing the Corona Yard. Then the whole thing will have CBTC added, the third signal job, with the Flushing Extension tentatively planned as part of that.
Same thing on the Culver. First, Bergen St. will be replaced due to the fire. Then Culver 1 up to 7th Avenue. Then Culver/Crosstown 2 from 7th to Jay/etc.
Most of these jobs take 3-4 years, though for much of that all you are doing is ordering equipment and waiting for it to get there.
You couldn't do this on the Flushing Line, but if shutting down the Culver entirely meant the whole thing could be done in 18 months I'd be all for it -- and I live here. People could just take the bus to other lines. It would be a big inconvenience for a while, but thats' better than a minor incovenience for an eternity in my book.
Thank you for the hefty explanation.
Alex-
Would you or anyone else know if part of the resignalling project will also include relocation of the switch between Jackson and Prospect Avs? I ask this because it appears that a new signal for reverse movement on the southbound track may go into service.(?) This would be immediately north of the soutbound plat at Jackson. I observed two trip assembly housings installed within a few feet of each other. Things are getting interesting.....
In addition to that, there were new signals put up between Jackson and Prospect this weekend (not functional). One work train delivered signals to the work area, while a second train was working north of 3rd Avenue on cable installation.
-Stef
Sorry, Stef, but I haven't been up that way in over a year, so I really don't know.
Many of the new signals have already been put in position. I hope you've seen them during your inspections of the tracks between 149 and 180. I don't know when they will be functional.
This is all understanable, but totally cutting service on the weekends is a real bummer. Can't they use the old signal wires?
I think that ALL Subways should be removed from the Elevated East River Crossings, and cross the east river in their own tunnel. Given where on the bridges they cross and how big they are, they could prove to be disasterous if used in malicious ways.
No parking on the street should be allowed because carbombs could be planted, no gas deliveries to gas stations because they could be blown up intentionally. No going outside because there could be biological or chemical attacks that spread wildly throughout your neighborhood, especially if it is predominately Jewish. You can't live your life in fear.
I guess you're right...I'm paranoid, and need to get out more.
you need more than that.you need Jesus!!!
you need Jesus!!!
What is the Puerto Rican guy across the street going to do for him?
hay-seuse could do much,if he put his mind to it....and you need him too!!!!!Smartboy......
I need no one. The laws of logic and reason have served me well. I live not for what won't happen after I die, but for the betterment of my life before then. And I can achieve that better without constant prayer and pennance.
Sorry if I insulted your beliefs, but I DO NOT like proselytization. I respect someone else's beliefs only if they don't try to shove them down my or someone else's throat without being asked to do that.
Oh, and the afterlife is for babies. It's a detriment to society for people to believe those fables. Look at what happened 13 months and 11 days ago.
you,my friend, if you found it So offensive,you should not have responded. Futhermore,even if I were directing my comments YOUR way... you have GOD GIVEN RIGHT to agree or Dis-agree.Either way,I for one could care less about they way you feel about my faith,one way or another.I post here all the time,and I will continue to do so,under any circumstances.And if I feel that my faith is something that needs to be used in one of my post,I,for one WILL DO SO.WITHOUT your Permission[as if I needed it in the first place]. SO for future referance,if you see a posting with my name attached,[love 9400 if you forgot or something]Don't read em'! OR better yet,place my name on YOUR KILLFILE...so I will be able to sleep at night a little BETTER with the knowledge that I haven't Offended the AMERICAN PIG[JESUS,with a name like ''PIG'',you should be the last person to take offense to anything].sorry if i insulted your belief in ''nothing''. OH,and by the way,I can wait untill I see your face on ''JUDGEMENT DAY'' when ''Nothing'' sends you to where you rightfully belong.....
>>OH,and by the way,I can wait untill I see your face on ''JUDGEMENT DAY'' when ''Nothing'' sends you to where you rightfully belong.....<<
Now if AP said something to the effect of "I can't wait for the day you find out that when you die you're nothing but worm food" you'd take it as a personal offence.
Anyway, back on topic... we must've been talking about osama or something :)
I'd really appreciate it if there's no replies here, but I need to say something lest we descend into another of those "religion" threads (in other words, let's get the election out of the way, THEN we can have at each other heh) Just something I wanted to say out of mutual respect for Love9400, Pigs and many others here I like being with ...
Most Christians are taught that Jesus is something to be ACCEPTED, not dragged towards ... in fact, pushing Jesus tends to lead to more disrespect and makes nonbelievers more RESISTANT ... we've seen the "I used to be all messed up on drugs until I found the Lord, now I'm all messed up on the Lord" on various trains. Jesus hung out with thieves and prostitutes and was kind to all, without judging, simply offering philosophy and education if it was WANTED.
We're taught as "Christians" to EMULATE Jesus and behave in the gentle manner HE would prescribe. To lead by example. There are many whose time to accept hasn't come, and there's many who never will. For those practicing the ministry or the missions, all you can do is provide an example and let each person decide on their own. Those who choose not, have the free will to choose whatever they wish. Freedom OF religion under our Constitution also provides for freedome FROM religion.
Just thought I'd throw this out here before some UNGodly energies emerge. To each his own, but I feel that Jesus wouldn't be interested in us battling one another either, or beating others over the head with a concept, one way or the other. For those who choose, and for those who don't, it's a very very personal thing. I'm done ... please don't waste space on subtalk discussing this on MY account ... just don't want to see another flamewar since many religions and personal decisions are amazingly based on the same moral set whether we want to call God Allah, Jesus, Buddha or Krsna ... moo. :)
Well I'm gonna disobey your suggestion to not reply...
Very sage words... if a flamewar erupts I won't participate. I don't think it will, and it shouldn't.
You're going STRAIGHT to hell, sonny. But thanks! :)
But aren't all the interesting people gonna be there?
To be honest, heaven sounds kinda boring... I mean, the singing angels, streets paved with gold, going to church every day 5x a day... I'd rather have needles shoved in my eye - which is probably what hell is :P
Heaven could also be an Arnine consist, ten cars in perfect repair. I'm personally hoping to avoid hell, too many lawyers. :)
But wasn't it "Sparky" who posted something recently about ho the old BMT Standards were so much better than 'R whatevers?'
Maybe if he saw a perfectly functioning 'world' of R9's, he would assume they were there to take him on the suspension bridge across the River Hades into hell.
I'm sorry, I must have meeant the River Styx into Hades (which is hell).
Gotta review my mythology...
>>> Gotta review my mythology <<<
Mythology?? Quit dissing the old style fundamentalists.
Tom
Well, if it's the Styx, don't forget to put two tokens on my eyelids, I'm headed to Rockaway. :)
Heh. Damned BMT people. Yeah, I guess that would be the "train to hell" but to us Bronx boys, the IND was a limousine compared to the elevated tuna cans. Sometimes Heaven is customized. :)
"Where there's a will, there's an 'A'" ...
HA!
I really dont want to get into some type of fight with anyone here because of my personal faith in Jesus,Kirk.Its what drives me day to day,and I don't push it on anyone.Thats why it personal.I tend to mention his mane here and there ,when I post,but not as a turn off to others.If someone dis -agrees with my use of HIS name ,then fine. I don't have a problem with that.... but I do take offense to the utter disrepect,when it was trully uncalled for. So for me,this will change nothing as far as my ife goes.To each his [or her]own. Now, how are ya? Jeet yet?
Howdy, guy! Yeah, just stuffed the old face ... another night of coding and accepting the blame for ruining customer's lives in email until we show them how to get *us* out of the way so they can spot the REAL culprit. I'm CONVINCED that the "other place" runs on Windows XPee. :)
Yeah,tell me about.I want this ''topic'' dead in the water.
No schvet ... only reason I chided in was to try to chill down what I saw coming if someone else hadn't stepped in. Tolerance of other's opinions is becoming a lost art these days, and I saw what looked to me like some misunderstandings brewing. :)
It's all good.I'm trying to stay out of foolishness,and put the ''TRAINS,PLANES and AUTOMOBILES''where they belong,here on S.T.!So tell me,why are folks so fearfull,to conceider the subway a major threat to security?
I think it has something to do with politics. After all, the only people that need such warnings are law enforcement - the rest of us could use some lessons in what constitutes "suspicious activity" and it's curious how there's been little of THAT. But I guess wet bedsheets does encourage people to select one party over another out of fear. Karl Rove is doing a wonderful job of THAT. Now THERE'S some off topic for y'all. :)
folks tend to wear their fear on the sleaves.I'd like to think that even with all this stuff going on today,I not caged in,Im not gonna let someone with a''stupid hated America,we want them all dead''fetish to dictate my commings and going,not now or ever. If the current government lacks the balls to protect its people,then the people should ''protect themselves''whichever way they can.
Can you IMAGINE terrorists trying to deal with *US* up here? Send 'em over to Hamilton Hill, make 'em a ham sammich. They wouldn't last a MINUTE in Troy. :)
man oh man,spoken like a person who lives here.and im not too far away from the ''hill''!IM on the ''Pleasent''side of town.
Ah yes, the old "Mount" ... yeah, know the GE amusement park all too well. Spent time with a buddy on Moysten St by Vail. Still, you could be in the Troylet, Brunotown, Wal*Mart central. Moo. :)
Always got a kick out of the signs at the Port Authority years ago at the Adirondack Trailwaste gates, "Passengers must check guns with driver before boarding bus." Heh.
just a stones throw from the ''hill''.and thats too close for my liken'if ya ask me,people turnin up dead,like this morning...sheesh!!!
The two guys that got popped will recover I'm told, and the thug that shot them was a real Darwin candidate. Rented a car, left fingerprints all over it. Whoops. :)
But yeah, thugs that come up here from the city thinking they can do some business get some rude awakenings.
''keep you madness away from here!!!we got enough problems already!!!''
Well, you know it's like this ... any punk is always welcome upstate where they get the opportunity to MEET Jesus if they'd like. Where ELSE can you get 3 squares for a year just for spitting on the sidewalk? :)
Since you want to spend your time worrying about "Judgment Day," the other posters are free to spend their time productively on other issues.
Thanks. :0)
Issues that I contribute to also.IF not,then my time here has been wasted on YOU and others.The fact is,I like S.T. Alway have. You and others have keep me up to speed on transit''stuff'',your presence here has proven valuable to myself and this board.Since I did not initiate this ''disagreement'' but only responed to it,I feel that I SHOULD NOT[WILL NOT] carry it any futher that this post.I have always respected anothers point of view here,and in the future,I will continue to do so. A flame war is something I would like to avoid,so for me ...consider this topic CLOSED.
Good Lord, calm down. Can't you see the man was only kidding?
Peace,
ANDEE
kool,dude.
please rephrase this statement so it makes sense
I didn't realize "FlyerLover" was a multibillionnaire.
David
While we're at it, let's close down all streets and ban all vehicles, because a terrorist might use one to access a target. Better yet, let's dismantle all buildings of any height, lest one become a target.
Stone Age, here we come.
While we're at it, let's close down all streets and ban all vehicles
While this might be a dumb thing to do because of "terrorism", I think that there are serious advantages to outlawing personal vehicles
Wanna start a riot? Think the American people would ever allow private vehicles outlawed? No politician in their right mind would ever introduce legislation like that and expect to live.
>>No politician in their right mind would ever introduce legislation like that and expect to live. <<
A politician in their right mind? Fuuuuuunnnnnnnneeeeeeyyyyyyy!!!!
"While we're at it, let's close down all streets and ban all vehicles"
While this might be a dumb thing to do because of "terrorism", I think that there are serious advantages to outlawing personal vehicles
>>> I think that there are serious advantages to outlawing personal vehicles <<<
Or as in China, personal people. :-)
Tom
I feel safer crossing water over a bridge rather than in an under river tube due to my concerns of a chemical warfare senario. That is why you see cops stationed at stations which are at the entrance of under river tubes, to make sure no unauthorised individuals walk into a tube.
To second and add to Bill's comments" the cops are also at key elevated stations. Anyone entering the tunnels or catwalk will be requested to produce a photo ID in addition to their emplpoyee pass and they must sign a log kept byt he police.
Even underground, there is a permanent police presence at key stations.
Regarding transit security- rememebr the people who were killed in post offices (Sorry Mike from COlorado), Fast food outlets, the DC area sniper atracks. People even get killed in their homes and at work. FlyerLover- you'ver been wataching too many spy movies and reading too many spy novels.
I was reading a book on the J train this weekend when I thought about this.
I think that ALL Subways should be removed from the Elevated East River Crossings, and cross the east river in their own tunnel. Given where on the bridges they cross and how big they are, they could prove to be disasterous if used in malicious ways.
Just repeat the following, which is absolute truth, three times:
There is nothing to fear.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
Thanks for your reassurance Peter Rosa, but honestly I try to make myself believe what you said, but I just feel as I if am lying to myself.
There is nothing to fear.
But fear itself.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
No credable proof (or proff) yet. Case still open.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
Possibly, but may be like the Energizer Bunny. (just keeps going and going and going.......)
The war on terrorism is over.
Not according to Shrub and lots of Governors and Mayors.
We won.
No, it appears the game is still afoot.
Case closed.
Seems to be possibly still very open.
Peter,
The men in the white coats are looking for you.
Nice mantra
But only if those things were true. I don't think they are.
Wouldn't it be easier and more spectacular (in a macabre bin laden sense) to load a U-Haul truck full of explosives and detonate it on a bridge, or better yet, a vehicular tunnel? How about crashing a plane into a bridge?
What are you going to do with a train, walk on with a shopping bag full of explosives? The only thing you could do, it seems to me (besides using gas or something like that on the passengers within) would be to somehow derail the train and use the train's mass to inflict damage - this is where a train would do things a car or truck cannot.
If you were going to use a train, personally I think the best places to do it are in or near large stations with lots of tracks and routes converging or diverging - if you could somehow commandeer the train and derail it you'd put the bollocks on the whole system for quite a while by knocking out multiple lines.
>>> if you could somehow commandeer the train and derail it you'd put the bollocks on the whole system for quite a while by knocking out multiple lines. <<<
Now, let's see... The best way to do that would be to talk your way into a cab by posing as a friendly rail fan wanting to take videos out of the front of the train .... Naw, that could never happen, so there is no reason for the TA to be concerned about such a thing. :-)
Tom
Helpful Hint: There isn't any security at subway stations is there? What stops a bunch of guys from entering the system at various places carrying packages and boarding the same train? The train is crossing the bridge and then kerboomsky. THIS is why the subways are a security threat.
I've often wodered that myself. All this checking before you can get on a plane, but I can get on a bus or train without even as much as a half-second glance by a minimum wage security guard or a pass through a metal detector.
But again I ask, if all these people are going to the trouble of carrying shopping bags full of explosives onto a train and detonating them simultaneously, why not just load up a U Haul truck like McVeigh and blow that up on the bridge? The truck bomb would give a hell of a lot more "kerboomsky" than devices carried by hand. Also with a truck you have more leeway as to where to detonate the bomb, which lane, which deck, etc. to be in. This is why the VNB and GWB lower levels are closed to trucks, since an explosion on the lower deck would cause more damage.
I feel uncomfortable talking in detail about these kinds of things on a public forum, but if I were going to do something on a subway it would be on the passengers aboard. Look up Aum Shinrikyo - they did just this on a Tokyo subway about 8 years back and killed ~20 people.
Ok, maybe a bunch of shopping bags full of high explosive would do as much damage as a van full of poor man's ANFO, but if you have access to high explosives, you wouldn't be loading a truck with ANFO.
What scares me sometimes is when I come to the realization that we're doing all the thinking for them.
Nah, they already DID their thinking and already distributed all the plans. Just like when we marched into Afghanistan and got around to sealing the border THREE WEEKS LATER, we're trapped up in the "horses are already out of the barn" with shutting down access to this, that and photography. The enemy already TOOK their pictures and downloaded their maps. As long as we keep acting like these guys are morons, we're gonna get slapped in the head AGAIN ...
Despite the new propaganda from 'The Little Yellow People of Japon,' Aum Shinryko is alive and well. Thank the Lord that kitchen lab experiments are few and far between...and few less have the interest to emulate 'The Turner Diaries.' As a licensed NYCTA refrigeration tech, it just occured to me one more reason why R-12 is banned: conversion to phosgene. The saving Grace for the NYCTA system is its expanse but we are all, for the most part, vigilant. CI Peter
This kind of coordination -- I've thought about this in terms of GCT -- even if you could recruit AND immigrate that many suicidal terrorists, would require timing that seems way too expensive for what's left of the terrorist groups. And the reassuring things about trains (especially after having driven one at Branford) is that that dead man's handle doesn't allow any leeway. Anything goes wrong, you STOP between stations.
True - even if you lose control of a plane it falls at terminal velocity - BOOM and you pretty much accomplish what you as a terrorist wanted to do in a first place. But with a train it just stops dead and you wait for the police to arrive and haul your sorry ass off to Rikers. From what I understand (admittedly not much), it's pretty difficult to get a train to derail in some catastrophic manner, certainly not in a predictable and repeatable way.
You risk your life by living it.
The only sure fire way to be free of danger is to die.
Very true.
That's a great idea, now email it on over to Mr. Bush and I'm sure he'll promise to send more money to build a few more tunnels.
Oh come on, Don't you care that 'suspicious persons' may use the subway to blow up the Willy, and Manny B.?
In all sincerity, "open air explosions" don't have the "bang for the buck" that ones in "enclosed spaces" would provide. If someone were to be STUPID enough to put a bomb on the train, about the most damage that would occur to either bridge is the train line(s) and a couple of lanes of traffic would have to be shut down for a few hours while they picked pieces of carbodsky out of the steelwork, sweep up and let things move again. Blowing up a train would NOT take out the bridge, it's just spray stainless steel and bodies in all directions.
From a "strategic" standpoint, it'd be a waste of time. Al Qaeda isn't stupid, I'm sure they'd pick another target.
But they try to scare us, and the subway is the one place which would totally freak peeps out.
Yep ... imagine ... our own POLITICIANS are terrorists! Let's *DO* something about them. :(
Actually a bridge is (aside from a station) the *least* scary place to be trapped on a train. I'd worry more about a detonation in one of the east river tunnels. You're trapped in the train, with perhaps a mile's run along live trackage if you had to make a run for it. If you got stuck on the bridge at least you could escape if necessary and get the hell out of there.
Again I ask the same question, Why would someone do what you say, when I've proposed several scenarios which are much "sexier" to bin Laden, including:
1. Plane into bridge: at least you have a chance of taking the bridge out.
2. Truck bomb on bridge: much bigger boom than anything you could carry onto a train in your arms.
3. Subway bomb in river tunnel: much scarier than your proposal, in my imagination. Much more claustrophobic. Not to mention the fact that the smoke and stench of death has no place to go but in the survivor's eyes and nostrils. Probably gets pretty dark too. Nowhere to run. And it'll take hours to extricate the survivors.
4. Truck bomb in vehicular tunnel: much better than even #2. You get the "bazooka" effect, plus the things discussed in #3.
5. Bio/chem attack on subway: ditto. Or just going apesh*t with a gun on the subway (remember that rampage on the LIRR a while back?)
6. Random sniper attacks: Hmmmm...
7. (Not giving away any secrets here). Multiple truck bombs in midtown packed with conventional explosives and radioactive medical wastes. Good way to destroy the NYC economy for years.
(But before you think of moving out to the boonies, remember that the chance of the unavoidable 50 mph head-on auto collision out there is probably a higher personal risk for any single individual - probably 1 in 10,000 per year - than any of the above).
I will NOT disclose or discuss anything of a secure nature...just will say that NYC is an important scientific resource for the rest of the country. What is of record is that the route of radioactive waste materiel as disclosed by the news media covers the Queensboro Bridge in the route. Any accident, any flaw or terrorist intervention could quite conceiveably occur in front of my apartment building. Far more likely that make contact with a big fat deer in Warren County boonies before the 63rd Street station is nuked. Best thing is working in the Bronx far away from foreign consulates, missions and the United Nations headquarters. Safest place to be is always in the subways. CI Peter
I'm sure all of you already know the NYC Subway system runs on power of 600V. I'd like to know is why that particular number was chosen for power. I mean, would more voltage be better for the system? And is the amount of voltage used elsewhere as well?
600 volts is a standard that goes back a long time; many early trolley systems used that voltage. Precisely why it was chosen I don't know, but I believe that it had something to do with the maximum voltage that could reasonably be generated and transmitted over long distances by the generating plants of the time (keeping in mind that this is DC power, not AC). As to what might be better for the system nowadays I don't know. I would guess - but it's only a guess - that a modern system, designed from the ground up, would use AC power transmission, but I'll leave that explanation to those who know more than I do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting read. Another inquiry if you don't mind. I assess that such a modern AC power system, if it existed for the system, would run the hi-tech trains, namely the R142/A/143/160 since they use AC. Right?
No. They are designed for DC power pickup. I suspect that subway cars designed for AC power pickup would be quite similar, though. The DC power is converted to AC for the traction motors (how I don't know, my knowledge of electronics is quite limited) and probably for other things as well, whereas the older subway cars use the DC directly to power the traction motors. Hopefully Jeff Hakner or one of the other electrical gurus out there will see this series of posts and give you a better answer than I can.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's about 600V, it goes up and down, but any system does.
Used around the world:
600V DC - Numerous systems
650V DC - Metro-North
750V DC - LIRR
850V DC - Moscow Metro
1,000V DC - BART
Overhead contact (heavy rail):
1.5kv DC - Metra electric, South Shore, some of Europe
3kv DC - Italy, a few other Europeans
6kv AC - Obsolete British standard
11kv 25hz - Amtrak NEC, SEPTA
12kv 60hz - Metro-North, NJT, Amtrak Hellgate to Shell
15kv 16.66hz - Switzerland, Germany
25kv 50Hz - Most new European lines
25kv 60Hz - Japan, New Haven-Boston, NJT
50kv 50hz - Minning RR in South Africa
50kv 60hz- BM&LP in Arizona (minning)
Technically, higher voltages are better. BART's system is the max in the US now, I believe 1.5kv DC third rail has been used in Europe sucessfully. 2.5kv was tried years ago but unsucessful. 3Kv is the limit for DC systems because it's hard to convert voltages with DC. With AC, 50Kv appears to be the practical (!) limit, though 25kv seems more rational. With overhead, contact currents have to be much lower, so voltage matters more. Countries running 1.5kv overhead in Europe are looking to go to 25kv because 1.5kv simply doesn't provide the 'punch' needed today to compete with other modes of transport.
Actually, when Frank Sprague was working on the St. Jo, Missouri in 1887 and Richmond in 1888 he used DC voltages around 550 volts. It carried well, was best suited for the split-frame series wound motors he used and didn't arc far. Daft used 120 volt DC and Van Depole used 1000 volts. Sprague's choice turned out the best choice at the time. 550 was raised to 600 around 1890, and worked so well it became the standard for the streetcar and later elevated and subway systems.
Even now, modern systems tend to use DC at 750, again because it does not arc long distances.
Just to reinforce what Dan said: "600" was a compromise between
the desire to use higher voltages to improve voltage drop
and the realities of insulating motors of the time, both in terms
of the insulation on the individual field and armature coils
and the size of the commutator needed to prevent flash-over.
Voltages varied wildly. Even VanDepoele used different voltages
at different times.
WMATA is 750
As is LIRR today.
The LIRR/PRR used to be 660 as did the former NYC lines. PATCO runs 660/650 as does the SEPTA BSS and I believe PATH. The SEPTA MFL runs 700.
6kv AC was only used in Britain for low clearances. Trains were dual voltage: 25kv except for low tunnels and bridges. All overhead is 25kv now.
Lots of third rail in Britain. 850 volts south of London, but not sure about Isle of Wight and Liverpool systems.
1500v 3rd rail was used for Mancester to Bury until the line was converted to trams.
1500v DC overhead was used for some main line and commuter electrification (Manchester-Sheffield, Liverpool Street-Chelsford/Southend, Manchester-Altrincham) and is also used on the Tyne and Wear Metro.
"Lots of third rail in Britain. 850 volts south of London"
Are you sure, Max? I thought it was 750 - when was it increased?
Incidentally, the class 319 units run on the third-rail DC system south of the Thames and on 25 kV AC overhead north of the Thames; they have collector shoes and pantographs, and switch over between the two kinds of power at Farringdon on the Thameslink route, and I'm not sure where (Willesden Junction?) if they use the West London line through Kensington Olympia. The new class 375 trains on Connex (southeast London) only run on third-rail lines at present, but have pantographs, presumably with an eye to future Thameslink 2000 services.
Sorry about the delay in responding. My error was partly due to memory, and partly due to mistaken inference.
My reliable source states that the Bournemouth Line electrification was definitely at 850 volts DC, so it lookas as though the Southern is dual voltage. It would be interesting to know whether any other parts of the system have been upgraded since then.
Max
Max,
You could be right about it being 850V throughout the Southern Region of British Rail (as was), and I could be wrong. A question (which I can't answer since I'm not an electrical engineer) - could 750V stock run on 850V without modification? There is a lot of old slam-door stock stil running which was certainly 750V when it was new.
Fytton
The Portsmouth (4-COR) stock was definitely banned, or so says Alan Williams in his book on Southern Electrics. From this, I would guess that 4-SUBS might also be banned (same equipment) and possibly Southern designed 4-EPBs, if so, then probably also BR designed EPBs. Everything else (CEPs, CIGs etc.) would be OK. Just a guess though. I don't travel out to Southampton very often.
Max
To add a few more...
630V DC (four rail system) - London Underground
Overhead (Heavy Rail) in Japan
600V DC - Still used by some private railways
1.5kV DC - Heavily used in Japan (Tokyo met. area, Osaka, etc..)
20kV 50Hz - Eastern Japan
20kV 60Hz - Western Japan
25kv 50Hz - Shinkansen(Bullet train) (Eastern Japan)
25kv 60Hz - Shinkansen (Tokaido line and Western Japan)
When electricity was introduced in Japan, Eastern Japan got British generators(50Hz), while the West got US generators(60Hz).
1.5kv DC - Metra electric, South Shore, some of Europe
Also the standard for Netherlandse Spoorwegen, and also the standard for the old British Rail Manchester-Wath-Sheffield Line. The stock from ex-BR line which was de-electrified and abandoned in the early 1980s, were sold to NS for re-use. This was the ex-BR DC standard.
Up in Manchester, the suburban stock still ran the DC standard until very recently, when it was re-electrified at 25kV 60Hz.
6kv AC - Obsolete British standard
That's right -- 6.25kV 50Hz. Intended for use on suburban electrification schemes. Up until a few years ago, I think some of the Great Eastern mainlines that were electrified first still ran at 6.25kV.
12kv 60hz - Metro-North, NJT, Amtrak Hellgate to Shell
That's actually 12.5kV -- critical because it's exactly half of 25kV.
There's all kinds of other screwy voltages in use on the mining railroads -- BC Rail had a weird 50kV system I seem to recall.
At TRB this year, there is a paper on "Re-Electrification of Commuter Railroads" which has an overview and critical evaluation of the NJT Boonton Lines re-electfication scheme -- used to be the Erie system at 3kV DC.
AEM7
The thrid rail says 700v while the cars say 650v.
An electrical inspector that had done some subway substation work once told me that the nominal numbers are 625V A-divison and 650V B-division. Obviously, the nominal potential isn't the same as the actual value (pesky electrons) and I think that this is why there are a few equally good answers to the "what's the voltage" question. Considering nominal values -only-, can anyone in the know confirm or deny what the inspector told me?
Mark
Yes, that's about right for the substations. On long runs between substations, you can come down to about 550. I remember lower than nominal voltages in different places on the Brighton line in particular. Dunno if they've ever fixed it since my day, they probably HAVE. But yes, at the contactor panels, that sounds about right.
At around 3:30pm today, service on the Broad Street Line encountered signal problems, most likely at Walnut-Locust station. This caused several trains, including a few Eagles Express trains (which stop only at island platforms between Fern Rock and Walnut-Locust, then non-stop to Pattison). The train that I was on today was held at Walnut-Locust for about 5 minutes. As a result, I was barely able to get to the Vet in time for the opening kickoff (had about 20 minutes to spare, hence no time to really take in the tailgating scene).
To make things worse, SEPTA seems to have decided not to run 10 minute headways as promised. Either there were a lot more Eagles fans than expected taking the subway, or SEPTA decided not to add too many more trains, but both the southbound and northbound trips that I was on were dangerously overcrowded. Several other passengers seemed to have noticed the same thing that I did. I can't seem to figure out why SEPTA can't simply use 6 car trains on certain occasions.
This leads me to ask how well the TA handles crowds on the 7 train from Shea Stadium after a Mets game and on the 4 from Yankee Stadium. It's been a few years since I've been to Shea, but ISTR that the TA did a great job handling crowds much larger than the typical SEPTA/Eagles crowd.
The NYCTA uses gap trains on the #7 (Shea) and the #4 and D (Yankee). The trains go into service at the end of the game to supplement the regular service. Remember also, that even on a Sunday these lines have a ten minute headway for normal service, and trains are full length consists. So the TA handles big crowds well - trains are crowded of course, but everyone is accommodated.
My own experience is that, despite the notices on Broad St express service, etc, stadium event service is often poor and haphazard. The express service to the event seems to be fine, but the post-event service leaves much to be desired. Part of this is attributable to the number of people using the service, which has been steadily decreasing (the long and somewhat unsafe walk between Pattison and the First Union Center, which I have made a few times, does nothing to entice subway use, for example). Also, the reduction in late evening headways, both on City Transit and Regional Rail, makes a night event 'iffy' at best (can you easily plan when the event will be over, how much time you have to allow to get from the event to your next route (and on to the next route, in many cases))? I find myself in this position infrequently, with a bus route that goes from 30-minute headways at 7 PM to 45 at 9 PM to a last trip just after 11.
The subway itself is often poorly managed post-event also. Where, at one time, 3-4 trains were stored at Pattison and sent out as loaded, with 2-3 others kept on the express track at Walnut-Locust and sent down within minutes of the event ending (in addition to regular service), it seems that maybe a train or two stays at Pattison these days (I'm not sure about Eagles traffic, but for baseball, hockey, and even college basketball, with all the student riders, this has been my experience). Last winter I did this and there were no expresses since there was trackwork between Snyder and Pattison and single-tracking was in effect, so all we got were locals on 15-minute headways!
SEPTA could learn a lesson from other operators on this. The now-gone baseball and football bus specials from all around the area were popular, but SEPTA doesn't seem to be interested. And, when our new football and baseball stadiums open in the next couple of years (with a 3-4 block walk from the subway, unlike the almost front-door entrances from the Vet today), will many folks find yet another reason not to use the subway to get to games?
I sympathize with your comments about Broad Street line headways.
"Part of this is attributable to the number of people using the service, which has been steadily decreasing (the long and somewhat unsafe walk between Pattison and the First Union Center, which I have made a few times, does nothing to entice subway use, for example). "
I've done that walk too. Never a problem. What's unsafe about it?
I was going to ask the same thing. I went to Temple and always used the BSL to get to the vet or the Spectrum and I never had the chance to be scared with all the people walking around you. Lots of people still must be using the sub to get to and from events there. Especially the younger crowd
The Vet and the First Union Spectrum are easy walks from the subway. The 'unsafe' walk I noted was to and from the First Union Center. There is no direct pedestrian path that doesn't have to cross parking lanes or entrances/exits. For some reason, drivers aren't looking for people walking, especially when the events let out and everyone is in 'mad dash' mode to get home. I've seen a couple of near-misses with peds and cars, and I realize you have to have your wits about you if you're going to make this walk. The 'unsafe' reference was to this, not to any personal crime, mugging, etc problem.
The longer walks to the new stadiums, across busy streets and parking lot driveways, will have the same sorts of problems.
According to Bernard Greenberg's Signals document, "in-cab signalling and recent position- and radio-based technologies are at this time (1997) being investigated in New York City". Can anyone tell me what the status/outcome of these investigations are?
Also, where can I find documentation on the new technologies planned for New York's subway system (possible addition of cell phone access, etc.)?
Thanks!
Meanwhile, up in Boston
STARTS & STOPS
Subway cellphone use snagged
Carriers slow to sign up with T's contractor
By Mac Daniel, 10/20/2002
It's been a year and a half since we wrote about Andrew Corp. winning the MBTA's contract to install cellular phone relay antennas in T tunnels and around T stations, bringing the world of solo gab clearly underground.
So, what's happened? Thus far, no signal.
After the project was awarded in July 2001, Andrew Corp. had a year to sign up all the necessary cellular carriers and install the relay antennas within the T's 64 miles of tunnels and 34 underground subway stations.
But things slowed after some of the cellular carriers either could not or would not sign on. We know not why. So when July 2002 came and went, Andrew Corp. officials asked for an extension. Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority officials have given Andrew until Oct. 31 to come up with a plan. If they don't, the T could award the contract to the second-lowest bidder. But if the carriers aren't willing to sign on, that won't do much good.
When we tried to contact Andrew Corp. last week, no one returned our calls. At the time the contract was awarded, Andrew officials said the T's system would be installed and operational by late summer 2003.
Andrew agreed to bear the initial cost of the project, estimated at $15 million. It planned to recoup that money through the lease agreements with the wireless carriers. The T paid nothing.
MBTA spokesman Joe Pesaturo said last week that, outside of the extension, T officials know little about how well or poorly the process is going. However, Pesaturo said that the T has been told that cellular carriers are more interested in wiring the new tunnels for the Big Dig than bringing cellular service to the T. ''They have indicated that that is their top priority at this point in time,'' Pesaturo said.
Should the proposal fail to produce an underground signal, it will be a good news/bad news situation. Commuters who despise the use of cellphones on trains will be happy at the outcome. But it's also a loss for the T system in general, which expected to generate $3 million annually from the deal, money that officials had said would be used to stave off future fare increases.
This link is great:
http://www.fta.dot.gov/research/equip/raileq/cbtc/cbtc.htm
I have turned up a small mimeographed booklet with the above title. It seems to be a song written in defense of the Baltimore Trolley. Written in 1960 by Herbert G McCarriar, it contains 32 verses of a song to be sung to the tune "Lil Liza Jane". The cover is autographed by the author, and is rubber stamped "Save Baltimore's Trolley Cars". It must be part of a third printing from February 1963, but was composed in the summer of 1960.
Does anyone know any history behind this very long song?
How about it, Dan Lawrence, have you seen this?
No, but I'll be sure to check the BSM Library. We should have a copy in the files.
I hope you will let me know. I find this booklet very interesting.
I rode a 5 train of Jerome-based R-33's from Bowling Green to 149-GC. I didn't see anything but Jerome R-33's and Jerome R-62's on the line, but visibility is blocked in many places. Were any R-142's (assigned to the 5 or 2) or R-142A's (assigned to the 4) used on the south segment of the 5 this weekend? How about Redbirds on the 4?
The R-62 bulkhead 5 bullet is a beautiful green -- completely unfaded. Before this GO, have R-62's ever been used on the 5? (R-62's, not R-62A's.)
I think this may very well be the first use of Kawasaki R62s on the 5, unless they were tested on the 5 when new. An R142A on the 5 would be nice too.
I take it with the weekend GO the way it is,access to E180 St/Unionport Yards is severed,therefore the best trains that can be used on the 5 are those from the 4 which explains the use of R62's and Jerome based Redbirds.Unless before midnight a few trains manage to leave the 180St yard before they close off the line from 180St-149/GC.If not then whatever trains won't be used for the 4 on that day will be used on the 5.
Actually, the first time they have this 2/5 G.O. a few years back was the only other time that R62s were used on the 5 line...One time, they had a consist or two on the 6 line! But for what reason? idk...
The Manhattan 5 is separated from the rest of the 5 line and the Unioinport Yard, so R142s from Unionport cannot be used on the Manhattan 5, unless Unionport R142s were stored somewhere on the Jerome line, like in CCY or at 149-GC...so any Jerome equipment would be used on the 5. I would LOVE to see a Jerome 142A on the 5 line when the Jerome Yard gets the rest of the New-tech trains...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
No during weekend GO, the 5 uses the 4 Redbirds and R62s.
I only saw the R33's on the 5 this weekend, and I was on the Lexington line a few times, on and off, but some of the time I was on the 6, and as mentioned, you can't always see the express tracks.
I was on the 4 a few times, and only got the usual R62 and R142A. I was hoping for a Redbird, but didn't wait around for them either, just took whatever came.
As for the R62's on the 5....I probably would have fallen over if I saw that! I don't think I ever saw them on the 5.
There were lots of them -- I saw at least four or five trains. At one point I saw three R-62 5 trains at 149-GC (some trains were turning on the middle track and others were using the wall tracks and relaying).
I saw them too! on the same day I took the J: SAturday.
I must have just been at the wrong places at the wrong time, as I was on Lexington line quite a bit over the course of the weekend. I actually waited for trains at 86th, 42nd, Union Square, Canal Street, Brooklyn Bridge, 33rd street, and Spring (love that "funpass"), and up and down the line at various times both Saturday and Sunday. So it was just bad luck that I didn't come across any R62's on the 5. My riding was more for transportation though, I wasn't really "railfanning", as I didn't really have the time. Although if I would have known they were running them, I would have made more of an effort to look for them. I did pass a few R62's while on the train in the tunnels, but I must have just assumed they were 4's, and didn't give a second look. (Now I couldn't miss them if they would have pulled into a station I was waiting at).
Did anybody on the board attend this weekends open house? This was my first time and I truly loved it.
What kind of trains did they show this year?
Jeff Rosen made a post to this board about the tip that he & his son made.
I went. Pretty nice -- value for money; they taped off the areas where people might get hurt, and removed the high voltage pods, and then pretty much let us wander anywhere next to the undersides of the trains and through the shops. I bet it was a BIG clean up day for those guys Friday. The exhibits were tidy, small, but appropriate (power, signal, training, etc.), and given that it was not funded to be a professional-graphics "convention floor" and the floor area was so vast, I was impressed at the commitment MTNRR showed.
Anyone go on the Foliage Ride?
Sure did. 8 cars and a Genesis Unit led the way to CP 48 and back to Croton-Harmon. You were able to see the FL-9 and some passenger cars sitting past CH stripped and cannonbalized and also the beautiful scenery to go along with it. Had loads of opportunities to get pics of the various MNRR Equipment and met a few Bus/Subtalkers along the way: Sid from NJ, Cleanairbus, A 8 Av Fulton Express, R68A 5200, Clayton, R33 8840. (If I left anybody out or if I mispronounced your handle, I apologize.)
Even got to ride a cheese bus shuttle-ILL!!! Brought back some memories. ;)
It was a good day overall despite of the dreary looking weather.
Hope to be there again next year.
#6317 MNRR
yea this year was the best probably because i work for Metro North now :) Anyways i enjoyed meeting alot of subtalkers, and it was easy enough for them to find me i had my METRO NORTH vest on. i loved wearing the vest because everyone kept asking me questions about the equipment. And i had my doorkey with me, so i had special priviledges anyway. i hope u all enjoyed it, and i hope to see you all at it there next year. who knows, maybe by then i will be a engineer trainee LOL
I definitely enjoyed the open house, though the ride back was in some respects even better. It was great taking that 3:27 back!
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
The 227 was just as much as a thrill as the 327 was. In fact I was fortunate to see the 229 Amtrak to Niagara Falls come rolling through.
Got 2 pics of 709 in the new Acela Scheme.
I'll deifiitely be there next year. Hopefully I'll be working for MNRR by then. Keep your fingers crossed.
#709 Amtrak
#6317 MNRR
tell you what. START APPLYING NOT NOW BUT RIGHT NOW! if u look on the mta website www.mta.info, Metro North is hiring for EVERYTHING u can name. so ur key is to apply DIRECTLY to the website, or u can apply to the following
Mrs wilson
347 madison avenue
4th floor
NY, NY
(212) 340-2159
Thanks for the info. I most certainly will.
#6351 MNRR
I saw that 709 when I was on the bus going back to the parking lot. I am possibly considering applying to Metro North since the Post Office illegally terminated me. I am about to persue a possible lawsuit so that the termination goes off my record. Well, it there is a whole mess in itself.
I took Amtrak #284 down to Harmon (#284 was about 1-1/2 hours late because it hit a stalled car near Rochester) so my friends and I arrived Harmon about 1:00 and went through the shop building. OBSERVATION: The Harmon Shop employee community obviously did a wonderful job preparing for the open house, but, as someone who works in industrial housekeeping and safety, I can tell you that that shop is ALWAYS that clean. (it would take a couple WEEKS to make your average locomotive shop look that nice) Metro North workers know that keeping a clean working environment helps them to be safer and more productive and it is easier to keep a clean shop clean than it is to clean a dirty shop. Thank You, Metro North
Last night driving along Linden Blvd, I passed under Livonia Yard and saw the lead car 8785 resting comfortably for the weekend. It and the rest of the R29 set should return to service tomorrow morning.
You can drive, thought they Impounded your Car For not paying the Wep their 17%.
I'm looking for a recording of a GG-1's horn, or the horn of any other electric locomotive that was used to haul passenger trains on the Northeast Corridor in 1971, to be used as a sound effect in a show. Problem is, all I can seem to find on the internet or on sound effect CD's are diesel horns or steam whistles. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Did the GG-1 horn sound similar to anything that is being used today?
I also need a recording of "a not too distant train bell" that plays as a train leaves the station, but I'm not having any luck with that either.
The GG-1 used a single chime "tooter" style horn which was the Leslie A-200. You can see info and get recordings of his horn at the Railroad Airhorn Page located at http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/a200.html
Here is a quote from the page.
"The Leslie Tyfon A-200 was one of the most popular horns of early dieselization, showing up on hundreds of EMD passenger and freight locomotives, as well as Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 electrics, and even some late steam locomotives such as Southern Pacific's famous semi-streamlined Daylight 4-8-4's such as #4449. "
QED
JM, that is a fascinating web site!
I agree with Dave. I'll have to explore the rest of that site later today. Thanks for the help - those sound clips should work beautifully.
While most of their information is correct on the Five Chime Consulants' site, the GG-1's did NOT use the Leslie A-200.
They used a slightly lower pitch, Leslie A-125.
I'm not sure if you can get a pitch that was much lower than the A-200.
Might not be available to buy from Leslie nowadays (I don't think the A200 is either), but that's what the GG-1's had. Got it from someone I consider "The Man" himself when it comes to locomotive air horns....the very same person who put the notes together for the Airchime K5LA and tested the first one on a WM unit (4260, a GP40-2) in 1975 (yes, the K5LA has been around that long!). That person went on to be the big decision maker at Amtrak when it came time for the F40's and AEM-7's to come into existence.
I don't know where it was I heard a recording of a GG-1 air horn....but if you hear it with some old F-unit with an A200, you will definitely notice the difference. I know there was a recording commercially available somewhere -- if I recall the source, I will post it.
I also heard plenty of them with my own ears, blowing as they came out of the East River Tunnels while sitting in the LIRR train years ago at Hunterspoint Avenue waiting for its 3:56 p.m. departure to Bay Shore....
Gents, the long awaited 15th edition of this book is now out,published by capital Tansport/Brian Hardy on the bookshelves now at £9.95 with 112 pages.
Rob
Is it any different than the last one, which included up to the 1996 Jubilee Tube Stock? I shall have to wire Simon some funds to pick one up before he comes over.
wayne
very different wayne, a complete makeover on this book,recommended now the fleet has been 'stable' for a few years with no new deliveries expected for a few more
Rob
"Metro Link Extension Funding Has Support of Panel
The funding structure for the planned cross-county MetroLink extension has cleared a hurdle. Last week, the Cross County Committee of Bi-State's Board of Directors recommended the full board approve the plan. To finance the extension, investors will be allowed to purchase tax-exempt municipal bonds, including mini bonds available for a lower cost. The cross-county extension is slated to take MetroLink through University City, Clayton, Brentwood, Richmond Heights, Maplewood and Shrewsbury, along with part of the city of St. Louis."
Is there any word on the movement among some north St. Louis residents to get light rail to their part of the city? I know this issue was contentious as some in this movement felt the affluent suburbs were getting all the rail lines while poor urban areas were being left out of Metrolink expansion.
Mark
MetroLink does run through some of the north St. Louis County suburbs, but nothing (yet) through north city. Frankly, the population size in north city really doesn't justify the expense of extending service there. I haven't heard of any plans to extend service into north city, either. The N-S line really doesn't go through the city very much at all, rather, it is a cross-county line.
The cross-county extension of the MetroLink system will add eight miles to the existing rail system, which currently spans 34.4 miles from Belleville to Lambert-St. Louis International Airport. The project includes a major redesign of the Forest Park station and the addition of nine new stations (two with Park--Ride lots): Skinker, University City-Big Bend, Forsyth, Clayton-Central, Richmond Heights-Galleria, Brentwood-Eager Road, Maplewood, Sunnen and Shrewsbury.
The new line will start at Forest Park, an existing station on the original line. Forest Park and Skinker are within St. Louis City, the other stations are all in St. Louis County. I don't recall if from Forest Park the cars will continue north to Lambert airport or if a transfer will be required.
Approximately 22 new LRVs will be needed to carry the additional 18,000 daily riders.
NIMBYs really screwed things up at Clayton-Central. Bi-State Transit wanted to run surface trackage into Clayton, an affluent city that is the county seat with a number of large office centers, the courthouse, and county government buildings. There was extensive surface trackage throughout Clayton years ago when Clayton was primarily residential and St. Louis Public Service (and its predecessors) ran trolleys in St. Louis. The book, "The St. Louis Streetcar Story," by Andrew Young, is filled with marvelous pictures and a history of trolley/streetcar service in St. Louis from its beginnings until closure in 1966.
NIMBYs complained of noise and the risk of running autos on the street with LRVs, forcing the tracks underground and resulting in expensive and extensive reengineering and pushing back the opening of the new line by several years. Rumor has it that a very upscale high-rise condo (now under construction) threatened to back out of the project if the tracks ran on the street (they would have passed right in front of the Ritz-Carlton hotel and the new condo). The city of Clayton saw a potential loss of millions of real estate tax revenue so they threw their political muscle into the fight by passing an ordinance prohibiting surface trackage. Whether the ordinance would have been upheld by the courts is another issue but Bi-State caved in in the face of mounting political pressure, and the tracks will now run underground in a to-be-built subway tunnel.
Happened this morning on a nb 6 up in the Bronx, according to here: http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=3986
---Brian
A horrible, needless tragedy.
Some years ago, I spotted four guys on roller skates being towed behind a UPS truck. Party-pooper that I am, I ran after them, caught up to the truck at a red light and started yelling at the top of my lungs until they got off the truck. The driver told me he had no clue they were back there (never saw them in the mirror).
They were pissed at me, buty what the hell...
A worthy persom for a Darwin...
I wonder what he said to his maker?''Son,Why were you riding on the top of that train?There were seats on the INSIDE OF THE CAR,you know.''
Mwaha!
3rd one this year. When will they ever learn? What a pathetic waste of a perfectly good Darwin award.
Looks like it's time to crank out some "No Surfing" signs. :(
Maybe if we announce that we are all out of Darwin Awards, they will stop.
One can wish for it, even if the goal is out of reach... :0(
Uh yeah ... right. :)
"No surfing" signs would be about as effective. Well, like I've said before, a GOH that installs BLADES in the doors is looking more and more like a solution. I just can't believe people would be so stupid. No, wait ... nevermind.
Looks like it's time to crank out some "No Surfing" signs.
Will this do?
http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/r40-var00013.jpg
---Brian
I always *LOVED* that sign every time it appeared here. :P
And yet, the morons don't answer the cluephone. :(
Wouldn't some of these guys antics make good fodder for that MTV series "The Jackass Show"?
No because at least that's funny. Maybe if instead of hitting a steel beam and being decapitated, they could have rubber things hanging so you can watch the guy's head go bang bang bang a couple times, bouncing off the train roof before he's finally put out of his misery by an overhead beam. Or maybe if he was dragged along behind the train, maybe while peeing on the third rail...
Now THAT'S entertainment! Muhahahahaha!!
Now you're thinking!
--Brian
Maybe after a few more years we can hope they'll exterminate themselves and we won't have to wipe dumbass-juice off our trains anymore.
Na, they usually start to breed about the same time they start to surf.
So when I was 239th I got the head out R142 A car. A junior with a big responsibility in front of the car desk and the superintendents office. First line inspection undercar...the trainset TTd with a suicide diver. Nobody wanted to come in contact with lost morsels of human life...I was watched and observed...Campbells Chunky Soups remain safe to consume. Rice and Beans Forever. CI Peter
These subway surfers never learn, but on the other side of the coin they're improving the gene pool by removing themselves from it so that they don't produce another generation of subway surfers. Perhaps every one of the subway surfers that manages to remove themselves from the gene pool should get the Darwin Award.
#3 West End Jeff
Cowabunga! Surf's up!
Yo dewd ... don't be insulting my pets ... even COWS have enough sense not to stick hooves in the doors ... these are the kind of morons that would make it in Senator Joe Bruno's district. Even REDNECKS know enough to pass THROUGH the doors of a subway car and either sit or stand. This moron is EXTRA especial. :O
Yeah, home ground idiots are a special breed, indeed...LOL!
29 cents a pound. :)
...Of their brain matter.
And since the surfer in question was 6-foot-7 and 275 pounds, that comes out to a cool $79.75 for the whole body...
Mmmm, Cheap, stupid meat.
Nah, that'd be a bulk purchase at the warehouse outlet, $19.95 red tagged ...
Remember, you are what you eat.
Heh. Not to worry, we don't need food warehouses in upstate New York. (although they're there for city folk) ... it's actually sad that there's still people out there that think they can hang from the outside of a train and nothing on the wayside's gonna get them. Assuming of course they can hang onto a car long enough for it to get through a conga line to the next stop. Amazing. :(
Just as an aside, what's the oldest subway surfer killed?
I'm willing to bet every surfer is below the age of 22.
I think I've heard of ones older, alas it's not one of those statistics I bother to retain. I've met people in their 60's with the mental capacity of two year olds. But yes, most of the victims are in the "indestructable" age group. Whoops. :(
I think the one on the 1 line about a week and a half back was in his late 30's. You'd think they'd know better by then, or at the very least if they've survived this long without getting creamed they must know better...
>>> the one on the 1 line about a week and a half back was in his late 30's <<<
He hardly counts as a surfer. He was just a drunk who stuck his head above the roof line in a high ceilinged station, just before the low bridge pedestrian crossover. Bad Timing, but he will never repeat that mistake.
Tom
Can I eat his liver with some farva beans and a nice chianti? Tsthtsthtsthtsthtsth....
Boogie boarding is only for the really rough weather surf....safer than belly boarding because of the flotation. When weather is calmer, you have to stand up and take the hits like a real man! Like portals, stantions, bridges and trolley cabling. Surfs up dude, check out the curl and suck into the pipeline.
LOL!
I heard about this idiot killing himself on WINS 1010 AM shortly after it happened. How many times does someone have to get killed before people realize that surfing on top of subway cars is dangerous. I guess that these idiots think that they're immortal.
#3 West End Jeff
Every day I see these stupid kids doing these things!! Especially on the A, J, L lines!! I mean it is so intriguing how they have nothing better to do with their time then to ride on the sides of trains. Then as soon as something happens, here come their fat a$$ mothers screaming "My boy is a good boy!! My boy is a good boy!! He do nothin' wrong!! It's you MTA peoples faults!! I'M SUING YA'LL!! My boy a good boy!! He never do something like that!! I'M GONNA SUE YOU ALL!!" This is all as a result of not enough community centers and activities for the city's youth!! They are left to wander all day on the streets and on the train doing nothing but causing trouble and doing things like riding on the sides of subways cars, thinking they are cool, but not realizing how badly hurt they can get doing these actions. I just don't know about the city's youth anymore!!
"Then as soon as something happens, here come their fat a$$ mothers screaming".
What mothers? The mothers are probably hanging in a crack house while the fathers are hanging in Attica. It's the 29 year old *grandmothers* doing the screaming!
I have no sympathy!! He was old enough to know better!!
Nope.
He was 18 - that point in life when you are sure nothing can ever happen to you.
Think back to when you were 18, and did things you would never do now.
I know where there is a left-over copy of a "Subway Sun" poster hanging in a working station. I noticed it several years ago, and saw it again yesterday. It shows a picture of a man who is apparently looking to throw away some trash. It says (of the trash): "Put it here" (arrow to trash can) "not here (arrow to track bed).
The poster is very black since it is covered with steel dust, but is otherwise in good shape (i.e. no rips or tears).
Before I reveal its location, I thought that I would see if anybody could guess where it is, or knows its location. It is not the Subway Sun poster on the G line (Broadway station) mentioned in the "G" station-by-station description on this site.
Further to this subject: has anybody compiled a list of locations where there are remaining Subway Sun posters still in the system? I imagine that there must be several still lurking around.
Stuart
I think I recall seeing one on Fourth Ave. N/B. 53 St?
Do I win a prize or could this be #3?
The Fulton Street line had qite a few of them up to a few years ago, Utica Avenue, Nostrand and ENY have the sign brackets on the express tracks.
This morning as I was no my way to buying a ticket on the LIRR in Bayside, Queens, I could not believe my eyes as to what I was seeing....something I thought that would never happen, but finally has. Workmen were there at the ticket office installing a brand new TVM. I am so glad my "prayers" were answered finally. So many have gone by that for whatever reason, the LIRR has overlooked Bayside for a potiental site for a TVM. Well, now I am glad we have one which will help out alot during the beginning of the month when communters purchase these tickets like mad. Now I can only pray that some idiot(s) don't come around there and damage the TVM.
Let's hope so. They have managed to keep Bayside Station in pretty decent shape since its renovation.
Another good place for a TVM (with risk equal to Bayside for vandalism) is Great Neck.
And Iwould like to see a TVM at Flushing-Main Street station as well, but we'll see.
Now the conductors will have to remember there is a machine there and to add a surcharge for tickets purchased on board.
"I didn't get on at Bayside, I got on at Auburndale."
Give me a break.
The Flushing-Main Street station could go for a rehab first as it is in terrible in comparison with those stations far east, let alone a TVM.
I fully agree that it needs a rehab. But installing a TVM and doing a rehab are not codependent. One can be done without the other.
Not all LIRR stations ave TVM's. Copiague doesn't have one, and that's on the heavily busy Babylon Line.
"Bill Newkirk"
IIRC Lindenhurst doesn't have one either. Most of the smaller local stops don't.
:-) Andrew
I was at Union Square this past weekend, and in the south mezzanine of the Lexington Line's station there are pieces of the original tiled walls that they brought up from the abandoned local platforms a few years back during the renovation. I remember them being there a few years ago. My question is (because I don't remember) were the tops of the wall sections missing when they first put them up there? The eagled "14" is on the first one, but the ones next to it have the tops missing. I was just wondering if they were like that when they first brought them up, and they were going for an "artsy" look, or did they start to fall apart somewhere down the line.
...also on the mezzanine at the south end of the
sb LEX platform you have the Transit Police's
WTC Memorial photographs which show images
of solidarity among other nations through
candle-lit vigils on 9/11 and a few articles
& photographic obituaries of Transit Officers
involved (and sadly, lost) in the collapse.
Well, I guess I answered my own question on Brennan's abandoned station website. Here is a photo of them at Union Square in 1904, and more recently, where they were moved upstairs. I like the way they did the exibit. It likes like the wall was actually in the mezzanine and they cut out pieces of the wall. I wonder what they did with the "14th Street" mosaic name tablet though, is that put in another part of the station, left in it's original spot on the local platform, or destroyed?
Although, the last piece of wall in this photo shows the 14 at the top missing. I believe when I was there the other day the 2nd and 3rd ones are also missing now. I wonder if they broke off.
Illinois Railway Museum wanted and approved a couple of R26's, but with the TA's insistence that they all be sunk, I suppose IRM is sh*t out of luck ?
It's the asebestos abatement issue that's stopping railway museums from acquiring any Redbirds...but did hear originally that they were looking for a married pair.
So wait these trains have enough asbestos to bar them from being sent to museums, but we can ride them every day? Hmmmm...
The asbestos is out of the public view, but can be dislodged if you're working on the car ... the TA doesn't want to get sued.
BUT ... if the museum is in a condition to PAY for the abatement, MTA would probably sell the cars. Of course, WHAT museum could possibly AFFORD to do that? Can IRM? Betcha that's the crux of the biscuit. I'd LOVE to see it happen, but that's a mighty expensive proposition.
What gets me, is I've been *IN* the panels and the biscuits were encase in plastic. I worked for the state and when we needed to pull TV cables into the ceiling in the Tower Building in Albany, OGS (Office of General Services) brought in an abatement team to blow in plastic to SEAL what was in our ceilings and walls and all was pronounced to be fat, dumb and happy.
So perhaps an "abatement" doesn't necessarily involve REMOVAL, but rather encapsulation of the "friable matter" (OSHA) so that it is stabilized. A HELL of a lot cheaper than removal. Might it STILL be possible? Betcha this just went over the heads of museum folks who COULD have had a redbird ... just figured I'd mention it just in case the passions are still there for boidies on display ...
[... So perhaps an "abatement" doesn't necessarily involve REMOVAL, but rather encapsulation of the "friable matter" (OSHA) so that it is stabilized ...]
No, I believe THEY want to remove it before they'll give you the car.
Re. your other point, the cost of the abatement is the problem, as IRM visited NYC a couple of years ago to look at what would be coming available & picked a series of married pairs. They even visited Branford to ask us about what would be required to maintain them.
None of us have given up on acquiring cars from the TA, but for now there is a big obstacle.
Then MTA's being stupid as usual. Encapsulation is considered "abatement" by all experts in the field and generally BETTER than removal as long as it's sealed and stabilized. The cookies in the walls of those cars now probably have deteriorated a bit, but even those were encapsulated when the cars were built. Do a foam pour into the walls and it should be perfectly safe, especially for transit museums who would be "responsible receivers" ...
Reality check for the TA ... if the cars were SO damned dangerous, why were they in REVENUE service? :)
It's the NYCT's asbestos abatement issue that's preventing railway museums from acquiring Redbirds...I did hear originally that IRM was interested in getting a married pair for their RT collection.
IRM and Seashore are in the same boat (barge?) There are folks
working on getting a waiver so the cars can go to museums.
Now that the R26 & R28 are extinct, and the R29 is on life support, time is running out.
Not necessarily. From what I remember from past posts, 7768/7769 and 7774/7775 are in storage somewhere and I think they're going to be saved. Also 7924/7925, 8678/8679, 8950/8951 and 9400/9401. Perhaps IRM bought these 4? Not sure.
To add: 7848/7849 are at E180 St yard dead. They have so much rot that they can not move. Can anybody clarify for sure? I know that they're still sitting there. There was a pic here not too long ago.
Then you have 7770/7771 at Canarsie but they will be school cars.
These redbirds have to go!!! Please give the fishies a home!
#7000 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
NO NO NO....fishies now have many homes. The last and the best of the running Redbirds (R33s) should be thoroughly sanatised...all asbestos laden heating elements removed and replaced, carbodies washed out and control systems placed up to par. These would be special school cars, not for T/Os but for CIs. I'm all for removing Redbirds from RTO but these trainsets are the best learning platform still available. Learn the Redbird...undercar, propulsion, carbody, HVAC...and any trainset is a 'piece of cake.' The next batch of CIs will be exposed to nothing than R142s....handicapped by lack of experience and unable to do much more than 'wash and wipe.' I hope my friends 8874/8875 give me at least one more visit. CI Peter
"Not necessarily. From what I remember from past posts, 7768/7769 and 7774/7775 are in storage somewhere and I think they're going to be saved. Also 7924/7925, 8678/8679, 8950/8951 and 9400/9401. Perhaps IRM bought these 4? Not sure. To add: 7848/7849 are at E180 St yard dead. They have so much rot that they can not move."
There has been some interest here at IRM in getting an R26 or R28 set to represent ACF; we've got St. Louis cars from the 1950's (6000's) and will probably have St. Louis cars from the 1970's at some point, so there isn't as much interest in acquiring a modern set of St. Louis rapid transit cars. That said, I would guess (after looking over your list of survivors) that IRM will be getting 7768/7769, 7774/7775, or 7924/7925 (and if what you say about the rusted-out set at E 180 St Yard is right, I hope to god we're not getting 7848/7849!). Also, IRM did not buy any four - we're only acquiring one set.
Frank Hicks
I doubt 7848-49 are going anywhere at this point in time. Transit is using the set as a facility of sorts, unclear to me.
I'll e-mail you offline to talk further.
-Stef
Frank,
I tried sending you mail, but it bounced.
-Stef
IRM needs to act fast if they're going to get R-26s. Availability of cars is becoming limited. Last 26s/28s were pulled from service, and should be off to the Reef at anytime now. This leaves 12 R-29s on the road, and the last green stickered Redbirds out there. Worst case scenario, they might have to take something else, but they'll know what to do when the time is right. I suppose the worse thing that could happen is a R-33ML pair heading out west. It would defeat their plans, but at least they'd have a Redbird Pair. I don't know for sure, I'm just speculating... Damn! I think 7804-05, 7806-07 would have been good candidates if they hadn't been reefed.
-Stef
I called Lodi, N.J. from my business in Exton, Pa, today. While on hold, I heard the following : "Subway Route L is having 30 minutes
delays due to switching problems at Rockaway Parkway".
I enjoyed hearing that on an otherwise crappy day.
Chuck Greene
I'm sure L riders are happy for you. :0)
I didn't mean it that way, you know. Every subway delay is a pain in the a** for all concerned. I got into a traffic jam tonight and was upset.
Chuck Greene
I know that. I was just poking fun at you.
You're from the Philly area, right? I got caught on the Rte 30 bypass between Coatesville and Downingtown , heading eastbound.
That road is the biggest piece of sh** around. Short ramps are the biggest problem, causing many problems.
Chuck Greene
What number did you call that had subway service reports
as the holding music?!! Whoa.. that beats elevator muzik!
I left the number at work, (1)South Ferry (9). I'll post it when I get in to work tommorrow.
Chuck Greene
They oughta get a hand on Heypaul's R-9 tape and use it.:)
I'd say it's the second biggest piece of s(tuff) as roads in the Phila area go. My vote for the biggest piece of s(tuff), for many of the same reasons, is 309. I think PaDOT used the same set of plans to build each of them! In reality, each of these is a '50's style highway, built before much was known about ramps, acceleration/deceleration, etc. Each is supposed to receive a major rebuilding, but I think 309 is ahead of the C-D Bypass in terms of timing.
I agree.
I live in Germantown. The Schuylkill Expressway is the main artery near here, and it has lousy shoulders little in the way of alternatives. A car gets stuck on it, and "fuggedaboudid." Germantown Avenue is one lane in each direction, and is the main drag going northwest to southeast toward North Philadeplphia. Cobblestones and trolley tracks where I live - cute but not good for tires.
Wonder if NYC subways are havin any signal probs right now (around 6:30pm). At 6:23pm, all the NYC TV stations went off the air for 30 seconds and came back, and Eyewitness news said their equipment got "surged" they had a black screen and had to go to commercial.
Sounds like was a voltage disturbance.
Yes, a voltage dip around Manhattan just happened.
That's what that was? All the lights in my house went off for a quick second, and my sister's radio cut off and then had to start over.
The TA was having signal problems all over montague tunnel.
We took the hit up here in Albany as well ... hmmmm ... preparations for a large power outage perhaps?
Woohoo! My first blackout!
Nah, it was a burp ... blackouts last longer. But it was definitely a "whole grid burp" ... fortunately for us, nothing went down since we're on motor/generator sets here but we saw it in the lights kicking off and back on. Unlike other folks in our area, we're directly on the GRID rather than local distribution so these events are rare here. When you live upstate, you're used to power being out for days at least twice a year if not more ...
NYISO tells me that line 71, the 345kV Dunwoodie (Westchester)-Rainey (LIC) went out at 18:22:25. 71 is a 700MW line. That's enough for a burp, or at least a hiccup, but it could have been a cause, an effect, or anything in between.
Mark
Yep, that sounds plausible ... it kicked us in the head up here on the Guilderland area which lead me to believe the problem was north of here. Musta been a hell of an arc-over down yonder ...
Yeah 6:22pm was more like it. I'm just thankful the other breakers didn't trip out sending us into a cascading blackout!
Does NYISO have a report on their website?
Does NYISO have a report on their website?
Nope. A report of significant emergency activity wouldn't show up there immediately, anyway.
Mark
Nothing happened out here in Staten Island. No cable burp, no lights dimming, no flashing digital clocks....
Staten Island is fed largely from PSE&G whereas the rest of the state is fed from Niagara Mohawk/Hydro Quebec, so it was probably UFO's up in Montréal like 1965 or some A$$hole up in Plattsburgh did big bug to Carbodsky at the Bombardier plant. We'll know tomorrow when it's in the funny papers I s'pose. :)
And I'm sure Carbodsky got a BEEEG BUG STRIPE. Still wondering about one of my classmates...Komaradsky...poor guy had problems and eventually picked 11 to 7 at Pelham...raised the BEEG BUG to trolley out a trainset and contacted CARBODSKY. UFOs probably locked into the phenomenal discharge of power...like Soviet Sub M-249 had coupled liquid oxygen to diesel electric power plant for worlds longest undersea travel only to be blown to Armageddon. CI Peter
Well the circuits were quick enough to stop the voltage dip from occuring in Staten Island. Out here in Sea Cliff nothing happened either, only from seeing what happened on the TV did I guess something was wrong.
Staten Island is tied to PJM anyway, like Selkirk said. Even if it wasn't cut loose (and I'd be VERY surprised if it had been), it could have survived a momentary hiccup.
Staten Island made it through 1965 (but that was due to human intervention).
On the south shore of the Island, I missed a handful of cycles, but not enough to confuse any electronics. Not even a particularly finicky VCR.
Mark
You know so muchQ7, Staten Island is fed though New Jersey or a very tiny bit from Auther Kill plant.
So Staten Island isn't connected to the "NY side" of the grid I guess. Makes sense they are fed from Jersey, since SI is closer to NJ than Brooklyn and Manhattan. There is also Arthur Kill plant, looks pretty big (I can see it from the mall).
Just too bad there aint a subway from SI to New Jersey!
So Staten Island isn't connected to the "NY side" of the grid I guess.
?
It sure is.
Mark
No problems at all on the J line, but the L line around B'way Jct. had a brief AC (signal) power interruption.
If I heard correctly, there was at least one M train that went BIE outside of Court Street because of that AC Power Failure. N and R trains went over the Bridge while Ms turned back at Chambers St.
-Stef
Yes, N/R were going over the Bridge but this was as early a 1530.
Yes I know. The Station Command Center was making announcements that time.
-Stef
Elevators were out as far as Simpson per my supervisor. At 191, all four were knocked out including one ar the lower mezzanine level trapping the supervisor briefly. As a result, two are out till further.
We noticed it out here in Suffolk, the lights blinked.
wayne
I was washing my dishes in the kitchen when the under counter fluorescent lights blinked, and I'm out here in southeast Nassau County. At the same time of the blink, Channel 7 news was on the TV when the screen went black and the news anchor was kidding about the lack of picture.
I wonder if the computers on the new tech subway cars also burped too?
Also, there's a full moon out tonight.
Bill "Newkirk"
Owoooooo! (maybe THAT'S the cause of my own malfunctions today) :)
That's funny. I live in Manhattan and my lights or TV didn't flicker or go black.
Yeah, from the reports that came in, what blew was a connector between Yonkers and Long Island City ... up here, we're on the FEED side and Long Island, probably Brooklyn and Queens were on the LOAD side of it and other circuits go to Manhattan. When you suffer a "trip" for whatever reason, portions of the grid will drop and reset, I can only guess that the load end was fed from the biggie lines that go right by our building here.
It was a VERY short burp, and if you didn't spot the 1/2 second dump, then you might have missed it. I'm surprised Manhattan didn't see it since you guys get your electrons through Dunwoodie as well ...
Brooklyns burp was not seen but my equipment registered the occurence.
Manhattan will no longer be isolated from the world...every sensitive electronic device should be protected by UPS.
We ship our electrons by Airborne Express, not UPS. :)
There's nothing that says lovin' though like the whir of MG sets - nice clean freshly made AC without the harmonics on the supply side and when a few cycles go away, nice rotating metal makes new ones in their place. When the whirlygig's exciter voltage goes away, Mr Honda will replace them and MG Set continues to make nice round sine waves.
Inverters generate too many spikes and trash. Rotating steel good, fire bad. :)
Computers on New Tech are always live to 37.5 VDC battery even if the third rail dumps. Educated guess...trainset fully charged would coast and not dump as long as air resevoir was at max. Trainset would respond as if crossing 'rail gap' and T/O has opportunity to slow down or dump...if resevoir pressure falls below 90 psi and things that should happen didn't, parking brakes would be engaged automatically to slow a train down without propulsion power. CI Peter
Other funny stuff, I was doing my laundry earlier (around noon) and came back to find the dryer stopped, in the middle of the cycle. Had to restart it. I guess somebody opened the door, but maybe LIPA had a local prob then.
Considering how widespread the voltage disturbance was, there is no mention on the news tonight about it.
Burps happen around here every time some drunk hits a pole. Just ain't news unless the looting begins. :)
Yeah we get "burps" and outages all the time here in Sea Cliff. I usually have a power outage or two a month. I had 2 power outages just this month. One was from a tree branch coming down on one phase of a primary. They had to get the line "back in the air" and closed the ASU and we were back on (after about 2 hours). The other was just 10 minutes as they had to clear a tree branch from the line.
LIPA's poles are pretty old, I'd say at least 20 years or more in my neck of the woods. The trees always get in the way, I guess the NIMBY's don't want their precious trees cut. Shouldn't utility ROW have priority over some privately owned tree?
You should see some of the poles, some of them are almost leaning at a 45 degree angle. So far, LIPA aint much better than LILCO.
hahahaahhahahah..........John, you really have to stop! That was the funniest post you've done in weeks. I can't stop laughing.........hahhahahahhaha
You'd love living UPSTATE ... *I* own the poles here, sunk them myself. And "trim a tree" is something we do twice a year, this past week and in the spring after the leaves come in. I'm luckier than most people though, we have 45kV service, so we get to bypass the "street distribution," and go straight to the transmission lines for power. I guess I'm even luckier in that we ATE the NIMBY's last winter when we ran low on food. :)
Ate the poor NIMBYs??? I experienced 'Escape from New York' in the blizzard of 1983. Full tank of gas, lots of food and the 'handheld was charged up.' Range of 'escapees on foot'...fifty miles. Range to zero in stragglers from my roof (if I get there)...priceless.
Power goes down (13 KV personal service) and all UPS become active, kero space heaters are turned on and my homebrew generator (supplemented by 12 VDC inverters) comes on line. Solid cedar timber house, 344 square feet of low E glass facing South, concrete bunker basement, 2 KW HF radio station. halogen floods remote controlled, PIR sensors and hundreds of gallons of fresh water stored. Now if only I provided my mother with a book of instructions. CI Peter
Heh. Similar setup here ... when you live away from the bright lights, you become unimportant to the politicos and the power company. You learn to fend for yourself, and don't have time to sit and whine. Allis Chalmers makes electrons that look JUST like NiMo's although painting the Privacy Software Corp logo on ours takes a bit more time. :)
The trees always get in the way, I guess the NIMBY's don't want their precious trees cut. Shouldn't utility ROW have priority over some privately owned tree?
It does.
You should see some of the poles, some of them are almost leaning at a 45 degree angle. So far, LIPA aint much better than LILCO.
Call them, the pole WILL be replaced within weeks if there's actually a problem (and often even if there isn't).
Mark
When you live in the 'richer' part of Manhattan, you get no brownouts or blackpouts. My lights did not flicker, my TV did not go dead but my UPS responded to a line condition because I heard the 'line breaker' click a few times. CI Peter
Living "in de hole" under Park Avenue are we? :)
'In de hole' is in de yahd.....I'm 63 and 3rd diagonally across from the sealed entrance. 'In the hole, in the hole, IN THE HOLE!!!'
So I always pray to hear from my lost girlfriend and who calls...U.S. English. Survey and petition to the President. 'Pleese listen to the taped address...did you understand it?' 'This is Inspector Murricane of the NYCTA...English is the language of communications and safety...do you understand me?' 'Oh thankyou Mr. Murricane.'
Always digging a DEEPER hole for undercar. At least a deeper pit means you can stand up straight. CI Peter
There was a similar dip in Queens. My lamp blinked off briefly, then my digital cable TV picture froze. I had to "reboot" my box.
i was on the N train R40#4250(i think)i hear that there was a power outage they had to unhook 3 signl tripers after court st.was there a power outage?
til next time
Yes, around 6:25pm there was a New York regional voltage disturbance. I have heard reports that this has happened all over the grid.
I was watching TV when all the NYC stations went off for about 30 seconds.
A disturbance in the force. :)
You really have to wonder, given his propensity for getting into trouble on transit systems - click here.
-Robert King
Nah, there'd be an orange vest. :)
He probably would have taken that picture!
I sit corrected. :)
hahaha ... ... .. ! !! !! lOL .. .. .!! !! !
My only comment would be: Call out the Mounties!!!!
I personally feel that NYCT should send their info about him to every rail transit system in North and South America and the Indian sub-continent.
If he ever shows up at BSM or in Baltimore, our MTA will be advised ASAP!! At BSM he will be asked to leave immediately, or deal with the Baltimore City Police.
If he ever shows up at BSM or in Baltimore, our MTA will be advised ASAP!! At BSM he will be asked to leave immediately, or deal with the Baltimore City Police.
For shame, Dan! He has a legitimate interest in photographing and riding the excellent collection of equipment that you have at BSM.
Only reason is his propensity to cause trouble, mostly due to his own actions.
your opinion ....wrong ..........
Sorry to dissapoint you, but my opinon is backed up by the majority view. Your troubles are mostly caused by you and you alone.
Nah, I doubt he had anything to do with this. Do you have any proff?
thanks officer rosen !!
remember joe friday said "just the facts maam" ...........!
who really did take that picture anyway ??...................!
i lived in cernteline near the detroit people mover 1989 to 1991 ...
i did want to go there but i never made it unfortunately ....
maybe one day soon to visit folks ??
i think i might like canada ...folks do seem a bit more mature there
..................!
I'm sure the Canadians love you too Sallam Allah. Do be sure to visit Bombardiers plants and don't tell em OnTheJuice sent you. CI Peter
the quality goes in before the name goes on .............
.................?....................!
Hehehehe, ya know....I think if Salaam Allah wanted to stay out of trouble, he would NOT try to make himself stick out like a sore thumb when around transit. I'm talking, leave the orange vest at home, leave the phony badge at home, leave anything at home except the camera....and probably nobody would notice him. Don't do anythying to attract attention, and you won't get it.
I shoot photos around transit systems all the time myself, and usually nobody bats an eyelash. In fact, one time I was actually shooting video in the LACMTA Blue Line subway stop at 7th Street/Metro Center -- and two LA County Sheriff officers walked by, all they did was sah "HI!" and kept going. It's even on the videotape!!! (And guess what, I WAS using a full-size VHS camcorder, AND a tripod.)
>>> In fact, one time I was actually shooting video in the LACMTA Blue Line subway stop at 7th Street/Metro Center -- and two LA County Sheriff officers walked by, all they did was sah "HI!" and kept going <<<
Unfortunately, as Salaam pointed out in a long ago rant about the sheriffs at that station, the lack of an orange vest is not the most obvious difference between you and him.
Tom
tom if i dont wear my vest and my VALID MTA - LA CONTRACTOR BADGE..
then they warn me of arrest if i dont stop taking pictures !
If you saw the video, you might tee-hee a little, as BOTH the LASO officers were, uh, quite similar to Mr. Salaam Allah if you know what I mean. *I* am the one that doesn't quite match the group, as you well know.
..you said ...
"I shoot photos around transit systems all the time myself, and usually nobody bats an eyelash. In fact, one time I was actually shooting video in the LACMTA Blue Line subway stop at 7th Street/Metro Center -- and two LA County Sheriff officers walked by, all they did was sah "HI!" and kept going. It's even on the videotape!!! (And guess what, I WAS using a full-size VHS camcorder, AND a tripod.) ""..........??
.........................................................
i would like to ask you when did you do that ??
the date and time that is ..
LMAO!! We are getting way ahead of ourselves.
Maybe supervision and police escorted him away already!! :-)
hey folks !! when an i going ??
i have nothing against travel so keep me informed
please !!
& do you want the toronto subway on video too ???
not a bad idea eh ??..............lol !!
he..he...he ...he ...
Been there, done that, including the Scarborough LRT.
--Mark
Salaam Allah visits Toronto? i would like to visit someday !
i think i would enjoy it ...
I was in Chinatown on Sunday and while I was there had a chance to check out the progress on the abandonment of the Queens-bound platform on the JMZ. Currently the Queens-bound platform is a fairly dangerous place! They have almost the entire "express" track walled from the southern tip to about 3/4 to the end on the northern end, leaving the entire platform about 6 feet wide. At least half of the width of the station is walled off down the middle of the platform. I took a peak behind the wall from the northern end and from the work there the station already looks abandoned. There is no doubt about their plans - All the opening that used to be in the curtain wall that seperates the two platform areas have been cement blocked shut on the Queens side. No care was given to the aesthetics on the Queens side as the blocks are just cemented in place against these openings in the track area - butted right up to the third rail (without the wood covering anymore). As you look down the trackway, all you see are these mini cement block walls every 10 feet or so - obviously totally uncaring as to the look on that side of the curtain wall on the Queens side. Get your photos now - one day you can only hope for a Transit Museum tour of the station......
>>No care was given to the aesthetics on the Queens side as the blocks are just cemented in place against these openings in the track area<<
I'm sure the bare cinder blocks will receive ceramic tiles to finish it off.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm sure the bare cinder blocks will receive ceramic tiles to finish it off.
I don't think so - not on the Queens side. They are a block's width sticking out into the trackbed on that side - no way they would have done it that way if they were planning to tile them on that side.
(Of course, on the Broad Street bound side it will look no different than any "cut out" where someone can stand - those will be tiled.)
I don't think so - not on the Queens side. They are a block's width sticking out into the trackbed on that side - no way they would have done it that way if they were planning to tile them on that side.
Remember, the current Queens-bound platform will be closed after this work is done. Queens bound trains will use the current southbound "tail" track on the southbound platform.
Get your photos now - one day you can only hope for a Transit Museum tour of the station......
So, didn't you take any pictures to share with us? :-)
Unfortunately no. I didn't have my camera with me. I wish I did!
Why are they abandoning the Canal St station? I was there saturday afternoon and it really looked like crap. I thought that the station was being renovated because of the blue wood walls. What are they doing behind there?
Why are they abandoning the Canal St station?
They are only abandoning the Queens-bound platforms at Canal (and Bowery also) and the Queens-bound "express" track. The current Queens-bound track will remain active for non-revenue moves and GO's after they abandon the platforms. They never really used all four tracks recently anyway. The "express" track on the Broad St side was not in use for years, and the last time the regularly used the Queens-bound "express" track was about 10 years ago when the weekend J trains used to terminate at Canal Street.
I hope though that the recently renovated Broad Street bound platform at Canal will be able to handle both north and southbound service when they abandon the other one. It always seems pretty crowded to me.
I was there saturday afternoon and it really looked like crap. I thought that the station was being renovated because of the blue wood walls. What are they doing behind there?
On the Broad Street-bound platform they are extending the current "express" track through the stub end that used to be there. That will eventually become the Queens-bound track. The blue walls on the soon to be abandoned Queens-bound platform are there to I assume facilitate the work mentioned above, the cement blocking over of the openings in the curtain wall, although I don't know why a wall to the extent that they put up would be necessary to do just that. The whole platform is only about 6-10 feet wide with that construction wall there!
Thanks for responding GP38! Is there really a point to what they're doing? Or are they just trying to make passengers feel cozy at Canal st...
Is there really a point to what they're doing? Or are they just trying to make passengers feel cozy at Canal st...
At Bowery I think it will be a great idea, as there aren't that many passengers anyway. At Canal I have mixed feelings about it. The Queens-bound platform is usually crowded. In the future, those passengers will have to mix with the passengers getting off of the Broad Street bound trains (I don't think too many people wait there for Broad Street bound trains, so that won't be too much of an issue). I think it is part of NYCT's project of removing abandoned and unused structures, thus decreasing eyesores (similar, on a smaller scale, to the way they removed many unused stairways and mezzanines throughout the system the last few years). It will also save them money by not having to renovate the platforms at Bowery and Canal, and also in the future of having to maintain them.
Although with the possibility of the 2 Ave subway possibly using the Nassau line as it's southern Manhattan connection, the old platforms may see life one day again. Either way though, the track connection through the stub "express" tracks would have been necessary anyway.
When was the last time more than two of those tracks were in use by revenue trains at once?
There were a few GO's in 2001 that have had service from the Williamsburg Bridge terminating on the SB "express" track and a single-track shuttle running back and forth to Chambers on one of the "local" tracks, but the other "local" track was never used at the same time.
The local track on the "renovated" (Broad Street) side isn't even there! The Queens-bound side is the pits, and truly deserves the abandonment which awaits.
On the same subject - is anything going on down at Chambers Street worth reporting?
wayne
The local track on the "renovated" (Broad Street) side isn't even there!
I don't think I ever saw a train on that track. Although I don't remember when they actually ripped up the track - if I ever even saw one there. I don't remember.
I know in the past some Canarsie trains (or Atlantic) used to terminate there, but I have no idea on which platform. And further back, conductors would pass through that little "platform and opening" in the curtain wall near the southern end of the station. I guess that was when all four tracks were in use. Is it possible that the last time at least three tracks were in use at the same time was when some of the Canarise line trains used to teminate there?
The Queens-bound side is the pits, and truly deserves the abandonment which awaits.
I think the Queens-bound middle track is also now officially unuseable. The woodened cover on the third rail is gone, and those freshly installed mini cement block walls covering the openings now make it almost impossible for a train to go through there even if the third rail was still in place.
On the same subject - is anything going on down at Chambers Street worth reporting?
I didn't spend too much time there, but all I really noticed were a few plywood barricades everywhere, especially on the center platform. I didn't notice anything structurally different about the station.
Anyone know what they have planned for that station?
I know in the past some Canarsie trains (or Atlantic) used to terminate there, but I have no idea on which platform.
They used the northbound tail track. I'm not sure when the southbound track was "severed", but it was before 1985:
Ah, the R-16s in their original colors and environment before they began falling completely apart.
You mean the "express" track.
Nothing much obvious going on at Chambers. Most of the wall on the middle platform has been removed, thankfully.
You asked about the brown painted ceilings. The paint is still holding, but IMHO that's a Band Aid approach. There's crumbling concrete everywhere. That whole station is in ruins, kind of like the Colosseum in Rome or the main building at Ellis Island before it was renovated.
I don't think the southbound "tail" track has been used since the 1960's. As far back as 1985, it was severed from the main line north of Canal.
But when was there last through service on the outer tracks and terminating service on either of the inner tracks (NB, probably) at the same time?
Probably back when the Canarsie-Atlantic Service used Canal as a terminal. Jamaica/Metro trains using the outer tracks and the Canarsie using the Queens center track. This is an educated guess though, as all the evidence points to this. I do not know for sure.
A real question would also be - when were all four tracks used? I know they did for a while because I read that that little platform way up in the curtain wall about 1/4 from the southern end was used for the cunductor of one train on a stub track to pass through to the other train on the other stub track.
Click here to see a photo of the conductor "pass through" in the curtain wall, about the third or fourth photo in the write-up.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/canal.html
The last Friday in June, 1968. The JJ/#14 which went to Canal St. became the 6th Ave KK on 7/1/68.
So I guess it really was an Atlantic Ave #14 like in the photo you posted earlier.
David: In 1949 the double crossover between the two express tracks north of Canal Street Station on the Centre Street Line was replaced by a facing point crossover and after that time all #14 service arrived and departed from the northbound express track at Canal Street. Third rail and track were left in place on the southbound express track in the station and possible could have been used for an emergency layup but I never recall seeing a train laid up there and the track looked like it had been unused for many years.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yep, that's how it looked a few weeks ago, too. (I didn't have a camera with me then, either.) It would have been nice if the openings had been left alone.
It would have been nice if the openings had been left alone.
Yeah, when I first heard of the abandonment plans, I figured that when the station was half abandoned, you would still be able to see the other side through the openings in the curtain walls, even if the lights were out (especially where the old conductor little walk-through platform was in the curtain wall).
I passed Canal St on a downtown (M) last Thursday. Before entering Canal, I noticed a bunch of those "bank of lights" hanging on the tunnel wall on the south bound abandoned track. Did anyone see what's going on in the tunnel ? Maybe laying new rails or signal work.
Bill "Newkirk"
They tore up the switch north of the station and have started to lay rail on the unused track. The funny thing is that they haven't dug up the old roadbed and there is no trace of ties so it looks like the rails are laying on dirt. They haven't come to the concrete part of the roadbed yet but that was about a week ago.
Working the M today, heading south everything looked the same as before (blue plywood walls at the end), but coming back north, it looked unusually bright down the tunnel south of the station. Not only were there banks of light, but I could see a flourecent station light, and then into the station as I got closer. They finally knocked out the walls and room where the new track is to be run. It looks like the platform crossing is still there (saw a worker walking across). But it seems a lot of the work is suddenly done. Funny that from the southbound platform itself you don't even notice anything different because of the wood walls.
Thanks for the news! Can someone get a photo of this? I'd like to see it.
--Brian
Went back and took a closer look today. They have demolished most of the crossing, and wooden planks are used for a bridge across. A smooth cut was made in the walls, and you can see by the tunnel type walls that that was once the way the right of way went when built.
I watched a train coming from ththe south, and then veer of to the left following the existing track.
The wood wall sticks out into the trackway, so you have to hold on to it and lean to see this.
Sorry, but no pictures. I did go on to see a 3 inch DVD-RAM camcorder disc at the nearby Panasonic store on Broadway, so I should have grabbed it ($34 a piece) along with Hitachi's DVD-RAM camera (few hundred dollars), and filmed it. (That's the type of technology that would get me into photography).
I'm looking fo contact with Team ATS...working group involved with
NYCTA contract S-32333...Automatic Train Supervision. They have a website...it is unofficial...and a big joke for the hackers and train buffs. The listed contact is Ben Rosenberg and my enquiry is serious. Any help is appreciated. CI Peter
Since WEBSHOTS is starting to suck. I decided to move my photos to Sonys 'IMAGESTATION' site. I have almost 40 Photos on their site. So I decided to have you guys take a look. Sign my guestbook (please) and let me know if I got any of the captions wrong. Go to 'IMAGESTATION.COM' and type in 'R40_Railfan' in the search box then from the drop-down box click members and hopefully you will get something. There will be lots more photos soon. So take a look.
Thanks
Anthony
A week or two ago firecracker Amtrak CEO David Gunn anounced that Amtrak was going to drop its extensive Express freight service. The reason was, despite high hopes that intermodal and express freight could help save money loosing passenger routes, the services not only delayed passenger trains, but ended up loosing 7 million dollars in 2001 with a revenue of 35 million. Sometime this fall refrigerated fruit shipments will cease and sometime in Spring 2003 intermodal services will end. Amtrak plans to return most of its AMTZ freight equipment back to the leasor.
Amtrak has no plans to do anything about its profitable Mail hauling services.
Amtrak is a logical mail hauler for the same reason it is a logical people hauler, especially in the Northeast. Rather than going out to airports and being trucked back in, mail can be sorted in the ity, roll by Amtrak to another city's downtown processing center, then be distributed faster.
Riding home tonight, seeing empty train after empty train heading down broadway towards CI, I wondered to myself if there's not a good reason why some of these moves can be combined? say, coupling together 2-3 trains on the middle track in astoria after the train is pulled from service, and sending a 16-24 car monster train south to CI with just one crew, instead of 2 or 3 or 4 even...
could the signal system handle such long trains? would it save any money? (I'd venture to guess it would a decent amount on labor) would the unions flip out? It seems like it wouldn't be a big deal to move a longer train, but then again, if it was that simple i'd assume they'd already be doing it... (unless no one has ever thought of it... ?)
Nope. There is a rulebook restriction of 12 cars in a train, except
in an emergency. This is based on the electrical and pneumatic
limitations of the car equipment.
Is it 12 cars for 75 footers, too?
I'll defer to Jeff, but I'd expect that 75 footers would ALSO follow the "rule of 12" owing to the actual TECHNICAL problem being brake pipe propagation (which is size based) and the more IMPORTANT "circuit loss through the car and electric portions (pins between cars and THEIR losses as "voltage drop" from the 37 volts of "Lo-V owing to batteries instead of passing 600V between cars) ... it's the ELECTRIC portions that present the problem. Series circuits of relay coils, snapswitches and other series electrical resistance presented by each car in a consist ...
But my guess (and Jeff will likely confirm) is that the car length doesn't matter quite as much as the series resistance of what's wired up *in* the car ...
TRIAN LENGTH Rule 39(N) from an old rule book (5 years or so old) "The longest train that may be run on any line is shown in the timetable or as specified by Notice, or in special instructions.
And that means WHAT? Heh. Ya know? Been doing a LOT of thinking since you and I were last together, had Unca Ed (BigEdIRTmanL - book, "They Moved The Millions") here for a day, and we did some serious Arnine note comparing and many other "checking each other out" trips amongst ourselves (MAN, was *HE* a *TREAT*, better than 1689!) and it dawned on me that I was COMPLETELY wrong about my own past ... I thought I was a WIMP on the Arnines, but our trips together has shown that I was seriously misjudging my own balls at the handles (you saw) and that while I was wimpish trying to hit the marker, was saddened by a few of our guests putting doors off the platform so the crew door was all we had ...
Between *YOU* and Unca Ed, I've finally gotten past 30 years of guit and am now more convinced than I ever was that I really DID have my chops together in my TA days, and that I *did* get phucked by my homies when I crashed. Words cannot DESCRIBE how MUCH I appreciate my short time with ya with all the other goings on, and my fondest wish is that somehow you, me and Unca Ed can get together somewhere somehow and raise a beer and shoot da sheet. ****THANKS**** for that ride, bro ... YOU especially helped to get me over some seriously bad old memories and helped me feel for CERTAIN, for once (along with knowing that 1689 is SLIGHTLY bad ordered) that I wasn't as incompetent in the cab as MTA and TWU made me FEEL I was ...
THANKS!!!!! (words cannot describe *HOW* grateful I am for YOU setting me right here)
Some day, if we ever have the time to ourselves somewhere, I'll tell you all the hairy stories Unca Ed had with the Arnines going to "brakes? WHAT brakes?" ... you and I have to spend some time together somewhere in the coming years ... Ed's stories scared the kwap outta me as to just how BAD Arnines could get ... after Ed's stories, I realized that most of my bad orders were in fact in better shape than I'd thought ...
Once again, THANKS for the mitzvahs ... wowsers. I cannot BEGIN to appreciate the wonders you did for both me (leaping into the Arnine) and Nancy (6688) ... we OWE you, bro! :)
Eleven car trains of R 1-9's were operated on the E and F from 1953 to 1957 and eleven car trains have operated on the #7 since 1963 or 1964.
Larry,RedbirdR33
They used to do that stuff, i don't know if it was 'legal' or not.
They do not want trains in stations in any form where someone has the chance to hop on between cars unless it can't be avoided, like punch locations and even then they will sometimes exempt you from punching. Long consists make it harder for you to stop somewhere and not be in a station somewhere.
12's the limit, although DEPENDING ON how good the electric portions are and how the braking is, you COULD hump 10 and 10 for a push on some of the older cars under emergency conditions, but it became a federal case and required supervision on board. Seems to have become a ritual at times with birdies and 142's so I've heard.
But no, doing such a move on revenue track is downright UNSAFE since the voltage drop for each car is substantial, and the more cars you have, the greater the drop throughout the trainline until the point of relays not pulling in hits. Then there's the amount of time (owing to electric assist issues) for air to apply and come off. So other than "rescue train" situations, you just don't add whole trains. Too risky.
I've done the 20 car consists with Arnines and BOY it wasn't pretty. Newer trains are probably a LOT more sensitive to the variables than the old road tanks. :)
Arnines?
Sorry about that ... the word is a "Subtalkism" for R-9's. Back in the old days, we called them ALL R-9's on the road but around here, there be nitpickers ("it's not an R9, it's an R6-2 with Westinghouse parts") so the generic "Arnine" sorta whips the rug out from the arguments as to what was what. :)
I see. I should be frequent here mor often to learn the 'lingo'. ;-)
At least 30 years or more ago a twent car train of Arnines came out of Concourse Yard into 205th Street and surprised the tower. Someone came running out to cut it so that the first 10 could be relayed.
Whoops! Good thing I did my put-ins and layups on the other end of the line. That could have been one of mine. :)
Yeah, unintended adds happen when you release and roll back a bit in the yard without taking power as soon as your air comes off.
What is the cost to join cars -- i.e., measured in, say, stations, how many two-minute stops would a crew have to pass before it is cheaper to spend the labor time to join trains and save crew on the run? This is more pertinent to MNRR and LIRR where you see 6-car or 11-car trains.
danke shun, everyone, for the 411. I figured there had to be good reasons for it not being done...
Randy Kennedys LATEST
Peace,
ANDEE
There's rumblings that it might go HIGHER than $2.00 up here among some legislative aides I talked to tonight ... dunno if there's any cigarette smokers left, but cigarette taxes and several other taxes have been turned around to "State general fund" and the word rumbling is that the MTA may be forced to levy an ADDITIONAL tax on the fare for NYC (and the commuter railroads will ALSO go up substantially) to pay not only for money to other cities upstate, but a contribution to the GENERAL FUND as well which won't be used for transit at all.
WARNING, this is JUST A RUMOR ... but these are the SAME people that told me all the other things I've mentioned here over the years that all came to PASS a few months later. Take it for what it's worth, but the rumblings up here in Albany is that the subway fares and fares on other MTA services will be used as a "TAX" and will be higher than expected so that the MTA is self-funding AND makes a "profit" ...
Vote early, vote often. Vote for Goober ...
Meant to add before hitting "Post message" ... the LOGIC behind the "luxury tax" is that the MTA has committed to a whole RAFT of new choochoos ... division of subways must now absorb the "Jobs for New York" costs of the R160 contract (and existing contracts) in total. Those new trains therefore JUSTIFY the hike ... that's what I've been told, take it as a rumor, but don't be surprised if it comes to pass. Target fare I heard was $2.50 or $2.75 with leanings towards the lower amount.
STORY about possible future uses of Metrocard.
Peace,
ANDEE
I like some of the ideas. It might make a good light rail type of credit card. Stores would have to deal with customers who'll say the empty card they have now, they bought it just yesterday with $15 on it.
Probably what might also happen is someone wins a $10,000 Metrocard at a MVM and it's jammed inside the machine.
Hey, you never know!
Wow ... impressive ...
For anyone who doubts how much the republicans have phucked up New York State and the city, this little "conversion" speaks volumes as to the desperation of New York to get cash any way it can. :(
Truth will be public AFTER the elections of course ... but not NOW. Anyone who's watched a sidewalk act though should be seeing a scam coming together here ...
Senator Joe Bruno got his baseball stadium AND his two train stations *KNOWING* this was all in the hopper. Paturkey LET him, as well as handing out MANY treats to special interests (1199, Business Council and many many more) ALSO KNOWING how BAD things were ...
And his popularity couldn't possibly be higher. Sheesh. Nobody's watching the Queen on the cardboard box, but still, we put down $10 and are CERTAIN we'll find the Queen. Thanks, Joe Bruno, Thanks, Paturkey and THANKS especially to Tom DeLay, Phil Gramm, and Dick Armey. Sure wish we had an economy, then maybe we could have afforded all this pork. :(
As a proud member of the fossil fuel burning crowd, as well as a proud provider of mass transportation in this city, I am reminded of the "Gov" we had previously, every time I have to renew my registration TWO YEARS at a time, so Mario had extra cash ONE year. Politico bashing can be done on both sides. OH, and I pay an extra fee, at the same time, for the "priviledge" of having a car in this city, thanks to Eddie. Politico bashing can be done on both sides.
To keep this relevant, a few years ago, the legislature approved enough money to put a C/R on every train, effectively killing OPTO. The "Gov" at the time (and currently running for another term), killed that plan effectively, keeping OPTO alive. (It has since expanded to the G, and now that the proper equipment is here, the M) Politico bashing can be done on both sides. BS politics don't belong here, they belong "under" the next interval...
I like the general concept but I have a feeling things may be taken a bit too far. Oh well... I like how the MTA's aiming for better ridership numbers and customer satisfaction. It will only streamline the system more and make paying fares a lot more efficiently. Is it a surprise to see the Straphangers Campaign once again whining about all this?
A gorgeous streetcar -- but are we there yet?
By MARY JO MELONE, Times Columnist
© St. Petersburg Times, published October 22, 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found myself Monday morning on Tampa's new streetcar with a woman from San Francisco, Susan Willms, who must have strange tastes. She could have been shopping and spending at International Plaza. She chose instead to ride the streetcar's first northbound trip on a regular business day, making observations that she planned to later tell her husband. He was here on business.
I found myself Monday morning on Tampa's new streetcar with a woman from San Francisco, Susan Willms, who must have strange tastes. She could have been shopping and spending at International Plaza. She chose instead to ride the streetcar's first northbound trip on a regular business day, making observations that she planned to later tell her husband. He was here on business.
Susan Willms' husband works for a bus manufacturer. That might explain her interest in mass transit. She also lives about 40 miles from San Francisco and absolutely never takes anything but mass transit to the city. And in every city she has visited -- New York, Boston, Washington, New Orleans -- she has taken a ride to see what public transit was like.
She was comparing Tampa to older, denser cities that have grown up around their mass transit systems and did not demolish them, as Tampa once did. I felt embarrassed. Here we had just ended a weekend celebration with politicians and bands to mark the start up of a 2.3-mile streetcar line that cost $53-million to build.
These numbers suggest disproportion of considerable size.
But Susan Willms didn't know those numbers. All she knew was what she saw, and she liked it.
Who wouldn't?
The streetcars are gorgeous.
Each seat is made of two kinds of wood, cherry and red oak that have been sealed with a high gloss finish. Above each seat hangs a tan leather strap for anybody who has to stand. When a passenger wants to get off he pulls a cord that runs along the ceiling and sets off a ding. When the trainman wants to announce the car's approach, he yanks a wooden pull that sets off a throaty whistle.
The man running the streetcar Monday was Bob Garcia. He has been a Hartline bus driver for 38 years, longer than anybody else in the system. In streetcar parlance, he is the general. Part of his job is to manage by radio the other cars running at the same time.
This takes more than a little skill. Much of the streetcar line is single track, so the cars have to be maneuvered carefully, one stopping to let an oncoming car pass. This is called a "hard meet." There are five hard meets along the little streetcar line.
But no stop is like the one outside Ybor City, where the streetcar tracks cross the tracks used by CSX and Amtrak trains. The streetcar has to stop until a CSX flagman gets the word from his own track supervisors that no train is coming. Then he flags the streetcar on. This is all the CSX flagman does, said John Creaton, a Hartline transit analyst who was on the streetcar.
This stopping and starting explains why a one-way ride from downtown Tampa to Ybor City took 26 minutes -- just fine for tourists with time on their hands, but a problem for people who live here and have appointments to make.
This is not meant as criticism of the streetcar buffs and all-round urban dreamers who have been devoted to the cause for nearly 20 years. They campaigned for their streetcar with the passion other people reserve for their favorite sports teams, especially losing ones. If devotion were the only measure of success, then this streetcar would be a hit, a big hit.
But it won't pay for itself anytime soon. No matter its good looks, the streetcar will probably limp along for several years, hobbled by its own limitations, of where it doesn't go and how long a ride takes.
I have been in Tampa for almost as long as the streetcar has been in the works. I have seen other promised projects come amid much ballyhoo, then go, especially downtown, like the revival of the old Maas Bros. building, the Floridan Hotel, the Franklin Street Mall. I am practiced in my disappointment.
I would like to make a wish about the streetcar. I wish that I am wrong about it, dead wrong.
TAMPA - The second day of Tampa's new streetcar system once again brought standing- room-only crowds, but operations Sunday didn't go as smoothly as officials hoped.
A mechanical glitch delayed a streetcar at Adamo Drive for almost 30 minutes. About 15 of the 60 riders decided to bail out and walk back to Ybor City.
``I'm not real happy about this,'' said Tom Cassedy of Tampa, who trudged along the track with daughters Katie, 5, and Carolina, 3, in tow.
A ``door interlock'' designed to shut down the streetcar if a door is open misinterpreted a signal and mistakenly shut down a car. Because the system relies on passing junctions, the streetcar at Adamo Drive had to wait for the shut- down streetcar near York Street to fix the glitch before it could continue on the line.
Steve Carroll, director of engineering and streetcar operations for the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, said the problem was temporary. He said it was fixed by the conductor.
``The operations are new. We're figuring this out,'' Carroll said.
The heavy crowds, an estimated 20,000 during the weekend, forced Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., the nonprofit group that operates the system, to use six cars instead of four. The additional cars caused the ride from Ybor to Channelside to take almost an hour. It normally will be about 20 minutes.
Rides on the $53 million system were free Saturday and Sunday. Starting today, a one-way fare is $1.25.
``Life isn't always perfect on opening day,'' said Michael English, president of Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc.
Still, crowds generally were happy with the ride. During the afternoon, most of the six cars were packed with more than 60 people each.
Jim and Barbara Sutphen of Spring Hill marveled at the woodwork in the replica trolleys. Jim Sutphen said he expects to come back to Tampa several times a year to ride the streetcar.
The streetcars will run from downtown Tampa at the Southern Transportation Plaza, which won't open until December, and take passengers 2.3 miles east to the 20th Street Station on Eighth Avenue in Ybor City.
As Eric Hill walked back to Ybor City from the delayed streetcar at Adamo Drive with his three children, he said he hoped the Tampa system would be a success like the one in New Orleans.
``I understand they have to get the kinks out,'' he said. ``I think this is going to be a good thing.''
17,000 passengers ride new Tampa streetcars
Tampa - The TECO Line Streetcar System, Tampa's new electric streetcar line kicked off passenger service Saturday, October 19, 2002 at 10 a.m. The two-day-long grand opening celebration drew 17,000 passengers all riding for free.
Tampa’s first electric streetcar line, built in 1892, was an essential part of everyday life. Workers took the streetcar downtown and to the cigar factories of Ybor City and West Tampa while families climbed aboard for a picnic or ball game at DeSoto or Macfarlane parks. During the peak of its popularity in 1926, it moved almost 24 million passengers before rolling to a stop in August 1946.
The TECO Line Streetcar System’s electric streetcars are replicas of the original Birney Safety Cars used by Tampa’s first electric streetcar line. The eight, 46,000-pound streetcars are the first air conditioned streetcars ever built, can go up to 30 miles per hour and carry 88 riders each and are all wheelchair accessible.
A ride from downtown Tampa to Ybor City on the TECO Line Streetcar System will take 22 minutes and make 11 stops. Streetcars will run seven days a week with extended hours on the weekend. Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., a non-profit corporation will manage the streetcar system and the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority (HART) will operate and maintain it.
Construction of this first phase of Tampa's new streetcar system cost approximately $32 million and was funded through a partnership between the City of Tampa, the U.S. Department of Transportation and the Florida Department of Transportation. More than 62 percent of the construction cost of the streetcar system is being paid for with state and federal dollars prioritized by the Hillsborough County Metropolitan Planning Organization.
Ancillary, complementary, intermodal transportation facilities are also being built on both ends of the 2.3 mile track. Southern Transportation Plaza ($14.5 million) is under construction across from the Tampa Waterside Marriott, and Ybor Station ($7.3 million), which will house a streetcar maintenance facility, streetcar museum and restored 1923 Birney Safety Car, is being built on the eastern end of the line. All (100 percent) of the construction costs for Southern Transportation Plaza and Ybor Station are being paid for with grants from the state and federal governments.
The result of commitment and leadership by Tampa Mayor Dick Greco and an 18 year effort by the Tampa & Ybor City Street Railway Society to bring the streetcar back, the TECO Line Streetcar System will support continued growth in downtown Tampa, Channelside and Ybor City, improve the city’s transportation capacity, support its thriving cruise industry and transport workers to and from jobs.
More than just a new way to get around, the TECO Line Streetcar System is also proving to be a powerful economic stimulant. Hundreds of millions of dollars in commercial development is underway or planned along or near the streetcar's tracks. Nearby property values are also expected to double within four to five years.
tecolinestreetcar.org
TAMPA - The second day of Tampa's new streetcar system once again brought standing- room-only crowds, but operations Sunday didn't go as smoothly as officials hoped.
A mechanical glitch delayed a streetcar at Adamo Drive for almost 30 minutes. About 15 of the 60 riders decided to bail out and walk back to Ybor City.
``I'm not real happy about this,'' said Tom Cassedy of Tampa, who trudged along the track with daughters Katie, 5, and Carolina, 3, in tow.
A ``door interlock'' designed to shut down the streetcar if a door is open misinterpreted a signal and mistakenly shut down a car. Because the system relies on passing junctions, the streetcar at Adamo Drive had to wait for the shut- down streetcar near York Street to fix the glitch before it could continue on the line.
Steve Carroll, director of engineering and streetcar operations for the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, said the problem was temporary. He said it was fixed by the conductor.
``The operations are new. We're figuring this out,'' Carroll said.
The heavy crowds, an estimated 20,000 during the weekend, forced Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., the nonprofit group that operates the system, to use six cars instead of four. The additional cars caused the ride from Ybor to Channelside to take almost an hour. It normally will be about 20 minutes.
Rides on the $53 million system were free Saturday and Sunday. Starting today, a one-way fare is $1.25.
``Life isn't always perfect on opening day,'' said Michael English, president of Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc.
Still, crowds generally were happy with the ride. During the afternoon, most of the six cars were packed with more than 60 people each.
Jim and Barbara Sutphen of Spring Hill marveled at the woodwork in the replica trolleys. Jim Sutphen said he expects to come back to Tampa several times a year to ride the streetcar.
The streetcars will run from downtown Tampa at the Southern Transportation Plaza, which won't open until December, and take passengers 2.3 miles east to the 20th Street Station on Eighth Avenue in Ybor City.
As Eric Hill walked back to Ybor City from the delayed streetcar at Adamo Drive with his three children, he said he hoped the Tampa system would be a success like the one in New Orleans.
``I understand they have to get the kinks out,'' he said. ``I think this is going to be a good thing.''
17,000 passengers ride new Tampa streetcars
Tampa - The TECO Line Streetcar System, Tampa's new electric streetcar line kicked off passenger service Saturday, October 19, 2002 at 10 a.m. The two-day-long grand opening celebration drew 17,000 passengers all riding for free.
Tampa’s first electric streetcar line, built in 1892, was an essential part of everyday life. Workers took the streetcar downtown and to the cigar factories of Ybor City and West Tampa while families climbed aboard for a picnic or ball game at DeSoto or Macfarlane parks. During the peak of its popularity in 1926, it moved almost 24 million passengers before rolling to a stop in August 1946.
The TECO Line Streetcar System’s electric streetcars are replicas of the original Birney Safety Cars used by Tampa’s first electric streetcar line. The eight, 46,000-pound streetcars are the first air conditioned streetcars ever built, can go up to 30 miles per hour and carry 88 riders each and are all wheelchair accessible.
A ride from downtown Tampa to Ybor City on the TECO Line Streetcar System will take 22 minutes and make 11 stops. Streetcars will run seven days a week with extended hours on the weekend. Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc., a non-profit corporation will manage the streetcar system and the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority (HART) will operate and maintain it.
Construction of this first phase of Tampa's new streetcar system cost approximately $32 million and was funded through a partnership between the City of Tampa, the U.S. Department of Transportation and the Florida Department of Transportation. More than 62 percent of the construction cost of the streetcar system is being paid for with state and federal dollars prioritized by the Hillsborough County Metropolitan Planning Organization.
Ancillary, complementary, intermodal transportation facilities are also being built on both ends of the 2.3 mile track. Southern Transportation Plaza ($14.5 million) is under construction across from the Tampa Waterside Marriott, and Ybor Station ($7.3 million), which will house a streetcar maintenance facility, streetcar museum and restored 1923 Birney Safety Car, is being built on the eastern end of the line. All (100 percent) of the construction costs for Southern Transportation Plaza and Ybor Station are being paid for with grants from the state and federal governments.
The result of commitment and leadership by Tampa Mayor Dick Greco and an 18 year effort by the Tampa & Ybor City Street Railway Society to bring the streetcar back, the TECO Line Streetcar System will support continued growth in downtown Tampa, Channelside and Ybor City, improve the city’s transportation capacity, support its thriving cruise industry and transport workers to and from jobs.
More than just a new way to get around, the TECO Line Streetcar System is also proving to be a powerful economic stimulant. Hundreds of millions of dollars in commercial development is underway or planned along or near the streetcar's tracks. Nearby property values are also expected to double within four to five years.
tecolinestreetcar.org
Man dies in subway accident in the Bronx
October 21, 2002, 4:14 AM EDT
NEW YORK (AP) _ An 18-year-old man who was riding on the outside of a subway car died early Monday died after being knocked off the train, police said.
The man, whose name was not released, was struck by an unknown object while riding along the outside of a northbound No. 6 train in the South Bronx, said Officer George Jensen, a police spokesman.
The accident occurred shortly after midnight, police said
What is this rash of "surfers" lately. Does this always happen, or do we have copycats thinking that they are smarter than the ones before them that got knocked off the trains?
What is this rash of "surfers" lately.
This is the same surfer discussed yesterday.
Thanks. Should have read the date/time stamp.
Mwaha! And these peeps never learn...
>>> these peeps never learn <<<
Sure they do, you never read about the same guy twice. :-)
Tom
LMAO Good One!
Has someone nominated this non-Einstein for a Darwin award?
Nah, the Darwins are awarded to clowns who provide UNIQUE examples of properly draining the gene pool. Subway surfers are a token a dozen. Just another stain on the tracks unfortunately and nothing of noteworthiness. That's what makes it so sad. I'm surprised it even made the papers ...
This morning had all Q Circles running express from Kings Hwy to Prospect Park. A broken rail condition reported on A2 track (Manhattan Bound Local) just north of Beverley Rd station. Two intervals were stranded, one at Beverley Rd and one at Newkirk Ave.
Control was reporting service would resume at 8am but I don't think so..
Looking at the train at Beverly Rd, it was facing a red automatic signal so I assume the broken rail dropped the signal and that is why they did "drop a train" instead.
Some types of break can be fixed fairly fast, with one slot and some side plates. Oh yeah, and the continuity bond for signal or power.
Other breaks require a rail replacement, which can be longer. (Measure twice - cut once)
As of 3:15 this afternoon, the rail's been fixed. The new section is now cherry red, yet to be broken (in another sense) in. The delays were minimal with only the expresses waiting for the locals to cross infront of them at Kings Highway. I was there around 7:20 this morning. The speed restrictions were put back in around Avenue H-Newkirk Avenue but probably got blown away.
RCT = Roller Coaster Tycoon.
The new version, RCT2, has a tram line as one of the rransportation rides, along with more monorails and trains.
It seems light rail is popping up everywhere but the center of mass transit in the U.S.
It's interesting to think about, certainly. I guess to those of us who don't live in New York might just assume that New York is dense enough that heavy rail is called for in most of the city, but thinking harder I can see applications for light rail in NYC. What did you have in mind? I can see modern streetcars like Portland's being used instead of buses, or maybe crosstown light rail rapid transit to span the outer boroughs where ridership might not call for heavy subways. Are these the kinds of niches you see light rail filling in NYC?
Mark
I suppose the old BMT model which assumed rail (subway and trolley), with electric bus and motor bus for light ro developing routes, would no longer be considered.
At least I would expect the original BofT model which would have preserved 13 trolley lines in Brooklyn. I don't know all the 13, but some are obvious: Flatbush, Nostrand, Utica, for example.
In modern terms, any current bus route that requires express buses would be a prime candidate for light rail.
In Manhattan, crosstowns such as already proposed for 42nd Street would enhance service and reduce pollution. Light rail might provide a high quality service in outlying areas beyond the subways where no money will be spent for subways any time soon.
Manhattan, crosstowns such as already proposed for 42nd Street would enhance service and reduce pollution.
I don't imagine that crosstown light rail in Midtown Manhattan would have of a time advantage over buses unless it is fully grade-separated.
I agree with Peter. Maybe as a cost-saving service in the outer parts of Queens or even the Bronx, but not in Manhattan. There's no room for a dedicated ROW.
The plans for the 42nd Street Crosstown assumed better times without a grade-separated ROW. They believed they could make better time due to better performance characteristics of light rail, reserved curb lanes and more "presence"--i.e., people keep out of the way of a moving train better than a bus.
>>> The plans for the 42nd Street Crosstown assumed better times without a grade-separated ROW <<<
That had to be dreamed up by non New Yorkers.
Tom
Get real.
I am real. I can still see myself in a mirror, except sometimes when there's a full moon.
The plans for the 42nd Street Crosstown assumed better times without a grade-separated ROW. They believed they could make better time due to better performance characteristics of light rail, reserved curb lanes and more "presence"--i.e., people keep out of the way of a moving train better than a bus.
Light rail probably would be faster than the buses. Trouble is, the crosstown buses are so maddeningly slow that the light rail would have to be much faster to make a real difference.
Plenty of room. Just get rid of the cars.
I like that proposal. That's the reason the Crosstown buses are so slow in reality.
As for the outer boros, I can only speak about the Bronx (where I live), I could see light rail to fill the void that exists currently with cross town travel. Getting in to and from Manhattan is easy, getting from the Riverdale area to the Concourse and points east is not very easy. Light rail on Fordam road, Tremont Ave, Kingsbridge Rd, Mousolus Pkw ect would provide a valuable service.
Why do people want a 42 St line? There are already two subway services serving 42nd St, why not use the money and effort for somewhere that doesn't have rail service?
Why do people want a 42 St line? There are already two subway services serving 42nd St, why not use the money and effort for somewhere that doesn't have rail service?
The idea was that the light rail would extend farther east and west than the existing subway service, in particular to the Javits Center.
One of the reasons might be quite simple. Who wants to descend into the depths of the subway, wait for a train, then return to the street, all for a a few minutes ride? Would it not be better to just hop on a streetcar to get across town? And, it would rid 42nd Street of the multitude of slow-moving buses and their inherent pollution and noise. Plus, the line could easily and quickly be built (all engineering work has been completed, I believe) and the route could be extended to the Javits Convention Center as a start. And - not an unrealistic dream - have a new streetcar line all the way down Broadway to South Ferry with a distribution loop in Lower Manhattan. It's funny how in all this talk about transportation plans in the World Trade Center area and downtown Manhattan not one word has been spoken about surface transportation. Certainly an economical, easy-to-build streetcar distribution system, based on such current successful systems in Dallas, Memphis, San Pedro, San Franscisco, Seattle, Tampa, etc. would be a tremendous asset for New York City. Funny how only NYC and Chicago, of the major USA cities, don't have streetcars......
Funny how only NYC and Chicago, of the major USA cities, don't have streetcars......
Atlanta? D.C.?
But your point is valid. New York State (not just City) has an antipathy to any but heavy rail systems. Buffalo was recently cited as the only one of the new systems that hasn't expanded or planned to.
Give us until about 2007 for our first new line. I hope we get back to our former 200+ mile glory in 30 years.
Staten Island would Be A Prime Canidate for Light Rail.
While the idea of light rail in Manhattan is dead for the time being, that does not stop the efforts of a small group of people who want to bring back service in the Red Hook area of Brooklyn.
There is also a small group in the Greenwich Village area of Manhattan pushing for some LRT service there as well...
So all is not dead in NYC. Besides, politicians have to deal more so with the NYMBYs then other places. Look at NJ for example. No one is protesting LRT service in Hudson County, so why should anyone in NYC be so against LRT service in the 5 boros...go figure....why be so uptight about it and just accept progress and the fact that real estate values do go up once transit comes to an area.
Here a list of R143's that were at Easy New York Yard on Monday 10/21. Again this list might have chagce since I got the numbers. I know that A set was transfered from ENY to Piken Yard for testing that night.
8101-04,8105-08,8117-20,8121-24,8133-36,8177-80,8241-44,8249-52.
Notes
8101-08 were in the barn getting a Upgarde to there Car Born Triping divice (Ttrp Cocks.) Got the from a person working on it.
8205-12 are at Piken Yard being used for Seamen A/C motor testing systems.
8249-52 as you can see are the highest numbers on MTA tracks. I was told by a TA work that as of next week there will be 8 cars delevired to the TA a week untill the fleetis all in.
I saw and rode a bunch of them this past weekend. The L had a few sets. Enough to make it noticable. Of course the M was completely R143 over the weekend. Most of the M line stations had service advisory signs saying that "Weekend M trains stop here." since the trains are only 4 cars long. A lot of the M stations (such as Wyckoff and Forest) had yellow tape closing off part of the station because the fare control areas are at the extreme end of the platform, and I guess they didn't want people running all over the platforms when train didn't go all the way to the other end.
While on the subject of M line stations....
Work on the ADA at Wyckoff seems to be in full force. You can no longer walk across the "express" track between the two platforms because there is a construction wall there now. I wonder if in the renovation they will finally cover over the "express" trackway there and finally make Wyckoff a single island platform.
i am referring to weekday M service.
Huh? Referring to what?
the regular m line which i believe operates m-f from met av. to 9th av in sunset park. correct me if im wrong.
Oh okay, I didn't realize what you meant. You meant basically....avoid the M train on the weekend......
R143's on the M shuttle? When did this start?
R143's on the M shuttle? When did this start?
I don't know, I was surprised myself, but I was on them on both Saturday and Sunday personally, so there's no doubt they ran both days. The M was 100% R143 all weekend. It was strange seeing them there. They had the L strip maps, but of course it was not used. But all the automatic announcements were accurate for the M line.
They started this pick, they are OPTO over the weekend.
Robert
They started this pick, they are OPTO over the weekend.
Robert
September 8, with the introduction of OPTO to the weekend shuttle.
do you know how many trainsets are needed for the rush hour L service.perhaps the r143 will soon be seen on the M line.
The R143 is already on the M line but only during weekends when it's used as a shuttle from Myrtle-Metropolitan Avs.
In order for R143's to run on the main M line, a number of things must happen. First, crews have to be qualified. This takes time, the only t/o's qualified are the weekend OPTO warriors. They have to put in 8 car c/r boards, they have to put in video monitors at some boards to see curved areas, they have to "burn" the cars to program announcements to Bay Pkwy. They have to have dedicated cars for the strip maps. So I think they are some time off.
The TA is stupit about were they are putting new vodio monitiors in on the L line. They are putting them were the C/R are at with the R42's and not were the C/R for the R143's are. The TA must think that the R143's door are full prof from dranging someone, or is some one not thinking that the L will be %100 in the near furture so they will then move the monitiors to the R143's C/R when done.
Robert
The monitors being put up for the R40/42's were probably ordered 3 to 5 years ago! TA bureauracy at it's best!
This was something I couldn't help but notice myself!! Especially at Lorimer Street, Grand Street and Bushwick-Aberdeen (southbound). If I said it once I'll say it again.....the TA "higher-ups" are not the sharpest knives in the drawer!!
Here a list of R143's that were at Eas(t) New York Yard on Monday 10/21. Again this list might have chagce since I got the numbers. I know that A set was transfered from ENY to Piken Yard for testing that night.
8101-04,8105-08,8117-20,8121-24,8133-36,8177-80,8241-44,8249-52.
Notes
8101-08 were in the barn getting a Upgarde to there Car Born Triping divice (Ttrp Cocks.) Got the from a person working on it.
8205-12 are at Piken Yard being used for Seamen A/C motor testing systems.
From earlier observations:
8229-8236 are probably in service on the L now. If anyone can confirm, it would be appreciated.
Rumore has it that 8205-8212 are testing a prototype Siemens propulsion system that might be used on the R-160. Don't know any more that.
8117-8124 are the CBTC test cars and not in passenger service yet.
8249-52 as you can see are the highest numbers on MTA tracks. I was told by a TA work that as of next week there will be 8 cars delevired to the TA a week untill the fleetis all in.
That means there is a gap, unless 8245-8248 are alos delivered and haven't been sighted yet.
Appreciate the input.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I think 8245-48 are on TA tracks but I have not seen them yet.
As I said 8205-12 are being tested with the Siemens(I type Seamans) Propulsion system. It might be used for the R160's, I don't have more Information about this.
Robert
Well I can look forward to burn testing some of them in!! Sweet job!! Definitely on of the better jobs an extra list man can get!! And when the tests go over the 8 hour time, that means plenty of O.T. $$$ :-D
I posted photos of the new passing siding along the former DL&W main in Dalton, PA...
http://www.hillel.cornell.edu/brianw/daltonsiding/daltonsiding.html
---Brian
Hey, that's great. Thanks for posting.
Ellis Simon reported on Trainorders.com that the American Orient Express was in Sunnyside Yard Tuesday morning.
I got it from the Mississippi Department of Archives and History. I scanned it in, and I can email it to you if you like. Apparently the system was pretty extensive considering how small Jackson was in 1912. For those who are curious, Jackson had mule-drawn streetcars from 1871-1899 and electric ones from 1899-1935, according to Travelling by Trolley in Mississippi by Frank A. Brooks, Texas Division, Electric Railroaders Association, 1983, San Antonio.
When riding on the 5 line while on my NYC railfan trip a few weeks ago I noticed the wooden uprights between the tracks on the northern end of the line. They are mostly painted yellow and have white/black diagonally striped attachments on them. What are these things for? Are they to block sound? lights? what?
I think they have to do with trackwork and the trackworkers' safety...
---Brian
That makes good sense to me!
Black and white diagonal stripes? Is it a horizontal bar with the stripes? That sounds like the marker for the conductor's car position.
Contributor Marc Pitanza submitted a bunch of photos of his explorations down the Travis Branch of the SIRT. The little-known branch runs south from a spur in Arlington to Travis where there is an abandoned SIRT car. Other neat things along the way. See it at http://www.nyrail.org/sir/travis/.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Great pictures! Always wanted to know more about it. A nice find at the end of line. Thanks.
Shouldn't the title be "Staten Island Railroad?
I believe this is not an MTA operation.
Wow, that car looks even worse than the one at Branford!!
Is that #353, if so am glad that 388 & 366 found better homes.
Is this line abandoned? One of the photos dates a grade crossing installation to 1998.
The line is currently inactive as far as I know. One crossing gate (at South Avenue)pictured is tied with a rope in the up position and the opposite gate is missing, probably vandalized. The line is supposed to be in service by 2004. I read in the Advance a while back that a piece of land was purchased in NJ that would allow for a connection with the Chemical Coast line in NJ.
The gate was struck by a truck. There is no power to the crossing, and the reason the remaining gate is tied up is because it dips into the roadway.
-Hank
Anyone out there recall where the Chambers St. tower (J line) used to be? Was there a seperate, high structure north of the station between tracks adjacent to the slip switch? I had thought that a tower occupied one of the rooms at the north end of one of the platforms but now I am not so sure. Thanks.
There probably was a tower there. These days operations for the line are handled from Essex Street. I think it also handles part of the F line past Broadway-Lafayette going toward Brooklyn.
There's a coupla places where it coulda been. I spoke to someone that was inside back in the day, and it was apparently a long room that tapered at one end because of the diverging tracks.
The machine was a "Federal" which was slightly unusual, even for the time.
There seems to be a tower like room at the front of the Queens-bound platform. I have no idea what's in there, and I've never seen it occupied.
Skeletons, probably.
wayne
Skeletons, probably.
With arms still on the levers, no doubt!
Given the age of the punchboxes at that station, if they're hooked up to that tower, it looks like it's been vacant for a long time.
Thanks, Dave. Your post has helped a lot. High room off the roadbed, long and narrow, tapered at the north end because of switching. There were windows completely around. It is easy to miss.
I wonder when this tower closed? Possibly in the late 60's when the Chrystie connection was built. Am not sure when Essex tower came into existence. There is evidence of old towers at the north end of the southbound at Canal and at the south end of the Jamaica bound at Essex.
I've never heard of a "Federal" machine. This explains some things also. I am going to ask about the Federal in another post. I recently found out that the GRS machine at old Bway-Myrtle wasn't original. A "Hall Co." machine was in the tower. Never heard of that kind of machine either.
Thanks again.
The GRS machine at Myrtle-Broadway is originally from Queensboro Plaza.
The old tower at 111th Street still has it's machine. Even though the building is now abandoned with a partially collapsed roof and is nothing more then a pigeon coop.
Interesting... Whenever a master tower is built, All old machines are removed as part of the project. But on Broadway-Jamaica, They were left in abandoned (Marcy, Myrtle, 111)
-Mark
Here's the caption for a photo on page 17 of the NYC Transit Authority's 1966-67 annual report:
"A new subway control unit was placed in operation in 1966-67 at Essex Street in Manhattan for trains running in the area."
So, as far as I am aware, the tower opened in the mid-1960s. I don't believe the control unit the annual report mentioned was an on-site replacement.
David
Was told that at the old Chambers St. tower on the J line there was A "Federal" type interlocking machine. Not your typical GRS/US&S. Anyone have any info about this?
Thanks.
Federal machines had "arm-strong", or all-mechanical plant style levers, but scaled down and incorporated into an electro-mechanical plant.
The levers are only about 14" long, and have the small latch lever that drives the rocker and preliminary locking just like a Saxby & Farmer style lever.
The locking bed is horizontal, behind the levers, like on a US&S model 14. But the dogs and tappets resemble GRS style ("Type A"), being driven laterally, not axially like the US&S.
The electric solenoid lever locks and indicator lights were located above and behind the levers, over the tappet bars.
There were electrical contacts driven off the lever located directly underneath.
I have some pix I could scan, If anybody wants'em, contact me by email.
Dave
2 new sets of M7s arrive at HSF today.
To the Board:
Report has come in of 4478/79 on the N, Monday, October 21. This was at East New York (J/Z, L, M) through at least October 18.
Presumably, 10 cars have been shifted, but 4486/4487 are still at East New York (on M) as of October 21.
Any R-40M observations would be appreciated.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I had a full set of R40m's on monday on the J line for my last two trip. I did not get the numbers. I saw two full set on the M and at lease two more on J with a set of 6 R40m's and 2 R42's. I did not hear of any transfers on CIY.
Robert
Hey Mr. N/E T/O.... the seat you destroyed on the R-42, was that a CI rebuild?? lol juss kidding!! I know you don't like them much. :-)
I think I saw that same mixed set on the J last week. There was another mixed R-40M/R-42 consist on the M. All of the other R-40Ms observed on the N as well as the Eastern Division were running in solid trains.
The J had at least a full set of R40M's that I rode on on Sunday...sorry, couldn't tell you the numbers though.
4494-5 on M 10/22/02.
David
If the R40M cars are being shifted in numerical order to their new CIYD assignment, 4478/79 would mean 28 cars sent down, not enough for a third consist. 4460 and its R42 mate (4665) will stay at ENY since they have door enablers. I've seen 4480 and up on ENY lines this week.
To the Board:
In association with the R-40M shift below, the pattern has been a companion transfer of 10 Phase II R-32s from Coney Island (N) to Jamaica (E & F).
FYI, the R-32s at Coney Island through October 18 were: 3598/3599, 3602/3603, 3608/3609, 3622/3623, 3626/3627, 3638/3639, 3648/3649, 3674/3675, 3680/3681, 3700/3701, 3712/3713, 3724/3725, 3808/3809, 3816/3817, 3842/3843, 3846-3849, 3858-3861, 3874/3875, 3898/3899, 3906-3911, 3914/3915.
Any observations of these on Jamaica routes (E, F or R) would be appreciated.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
wow hes right. i remember seeing 3862 as a N before. it hit 65mph thru the 60th street tube before the W came out. then it went to the 6av shuttle from 21st queensbridge to broadway lafayette. Then it went to the E line i saw it a couple of weeks ago. then i saw it last week on the F. man that R32 has been around
Check out this story:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/22/virgin.payout/index.html
That's some story. VS shouldn't have allowed the obese passenger to take up space like that. She should have been required to buy a second seat.
You make a good point.
I believe other airlines have instituted such a policy, or tried to, then faced a lot of criticism from civil rights advocates.
Especially in these economic times, airlines are not about to widen their seats.
It sounds like the woman in question was obese enough to have had trouble in first class as well..
Civil rights is a pile of shit
"Civil rights is a pile of shit"
Yes, but it's OUR pile of shit.
:0)
If you think so, maybe you should try living somewhere that there aren't any for a while.
OK. Have fun in Cuba.
-Hank
Such an erudite expression of your First Amendment freedom. I'm willing to buy you a one-way ticket to either Somalia, Sudan, or Iraq. Take your pick.
Don't be such a miser. You could add Libya to his choices.
Don't forget CHINA, plenty of free rights to have there too ...
Civil rights is a total pack of bulls--t that people sell you to stop uprising of hungry citizens. And you all fell for it. Think you have civil rights? Think again. I was down in Chinatown one time, and I got talking to this FOB (fresh off the boat) immigrant from China. He was from the ghettos in Hunan province and he found a job working for a eatery in Chinatown. I won't publicly divulge his wages here, but suffices to say that I earn more per day as a part-time grad student teaching assistant than he does, and he works from 10am to 10pm, seven days a week. His comments really struck home: if you're in China, you have no freedom -- but you show up at work and you get food. If you're here, you have "freedom" -- but you have no money. What the hell are you going to do with freedom if you have no money? You're stuck at work seven days a week anyway.
I asked him why he doesn't want to go home. He said that he has considered it, but now with all the privatizations that are going on in China, lots of people are going to be out of work, and he's happy that he's at least working.
So much for civil rights -- rights to work, rights to live, rights to property... rights to a miserable life if you have no education. Civil rights my ass. I feel disgusted that I'm earning more money than this guy. What am I supposed to do? Go hungry so he can have some 8-hour shifts at least?
AEM7
At least here he can work, and anything he makes is more than he would have made back home. It was HIS choice to come here, and work under those conditions. Unfortunately, his story is true of many Chineese immigants. However, his story is not typical of the average American's civil rights, and really has nothing to do with civil rights in general.
OK, so what is civil rights then? I have always understood it to be the general rights of a human being -- you know, stuff like there should be no persecution against certain groups, there should be rights to property and there should be rights to fair compensation for work rendered. If market failures in the labor market isn't a violation of civil rights, you need to give me a Citizenship 101 class to help me better understand what civil rights really are, and why they exist.
Apologies for the previous post, I was pissed off.
AEM7
Unfortunately the issue you raised with the unfortunate Chineese immigrant really has to do with the non-civil rights in China, not the freedoms we have here. That wouldn't be happening if they had civil rights in China. It is other Chineese people exploiting him, not an issue of the civil rights we have here in this country. There is a minimum wage in this country, if he is not getting at least that, his "employers" are breaking the law. But the agreement he made with them was made with those people back in China. I don't have an answer for it. Yes it is wrong, but these things would not be happening if these other countries had civil rights-he wouldn't need to do this. It must be really bad wherever he came from for him to put up with that crap. The problem is not that we have civil rights, or that "civil rights are bull$h*t". The problem is they DON'T have civil rights.
People are NOT born equal, nor are they equal in any other way.
People are NOT equal! To say otherwise is a pile of recyvled male bovine produce!
People are equal before the law.
People are equal before their maker.
End of story.
People OUGHT to be equal in your eyes, in the respect and dignity due them as part of God's creation, as a brother and as a sister to you.
You build yourself up when you treat others with respect and dignity
You tear yourself down when you fail to treat others with respect and dignity.
And true, there are some who deserve neither respect nor dignity.
But just deserts is not an issue... since you are how you treat others.
Raw exploitation of others ought not be tolerated... it occurs especially when imigrants enter this country illeagaly and then are afraid assert their rights (such as they may be).
Yes, I agree with you that civil rights is Bullshit. Because it is a missuesed term: a buzz word used to obfiscate issues rather than heal them. But civil rights do not belong to the black, the hispanic, the Chinese... but to all of us. we all have civil rights, and civil duties, and a need to be simply civil!
Elias
Yes, I agree with you that civil rights is Bullshit.
I was quoting AEM7, I never said that.
Hehehehehee...
I was replying to the whole thread, not just to your post that happened to be at the end of it.
I read all of the replies, and then added my two cents to the end.
Sorry If we missunderstood each other.
Elias
Civil rights are the right to equal treatment before the law.
Civil rights do NOT GUARANTEE PROSPERITY to all, but without civil rights there will in the long run be no economic freedom either.
No police state has sustained economic growth over the long term. The reason for this is that if there is no predictability in how much of what you earn you will be allowed to keep, you will not be willing to work hard.
That is the big problem China faces today in trying to become an economic power; most people won't work hard if they fear that new forms of extortion (mandatory bribery, inability to obtain business permits,etc.) will appear when they least expect them, and when they have no legal recourse against this extortion.
You seem to have confused HUMAN rights, and CIVIL rights. CIVIL rights are what you have as a citizen of a particular place. HUMAN rights are what you are bitching about. They don't have those in China either.
A Civil Rights violation is arresting a non-violent protester.
A Human Rights violation is squishing a non-violent protester with a tank.
-Hank
Apologies accepted. When you have lost everything and find yourself accused of a fictious crime and unable to defend yourself, the Bill of Rights and everything else that has come after it is there for you to use. Even if secured evidence and testimony is NOT available for you to utilise and documents obtained under the 'Freedom of Information Act' come back with hundreds of pages blacked out by marking pens, YOUR Constitution and Bill of Rights IS THERE to protect you. Try defending yourself in the Peoples Republic of China or the 'former' U.S.S.R. AEM7, when you grow up a little, DO NOT shirk off your responsibility to serve Jury Duty and participate in the electoral processes....two of many parts of being a good citizen entitled to protection. CI Peter
>>> YOUR Constitution and Bill of Rights IS THERE to protect you <<<
It is OUR Constitution, not his. AEM7 is not a citizen. He is an alien who does not have the courtesy that most guests observe of not criticizing his host. Fortunately he is in a country which has sufficient civil rights that he can do so without fear of arrest.
Tom
"He was from the ghettos in Hunan province and he found a job working for a eatery in Chinatown. I won't publicly divulge his wages here, but suffices to say that I earn more per day as a part-time grad student teaching assistant than he does, and he works from 10am to 10pm, seven days a week. His comments really struck home: if you're in China, you have no freedom -- but you show up at work and you get food. If you're here, you have "freedom" -- but you have no money. What the hell are you going to do with freedom if you have no money? You're stuck at work seven days a week anyway."
Aha! You have discovered a basic truth. In many repressive societies, the government and its people come to an understanding: I feed you (not well) and put a roof over your head (it often leaks) in return for your not making trouble. When the govt. breaks the agreement, you get a revolt (as in the USSR in 1991).
In the US, you have the freedom to succeed - or to fail. There is less of a safety net (thoughit is not absent). But the onus is on you to exploit your own opportunities.
In a sense, you cannot "fail" in North Korea. In the US you can.
I suspect the young man from Hunan was smuggled into this country and is working to pay off a "snakehead" back in China for his passage here. The going amount for this is $25,000. Why else would someone work 84 hours a week for presumably less than minimum wage? Isn't he being exploited by the restaurant owner? I was a juror in Federal court in Los Angeles that prosecuted members of a ship ferrying these desperate young men. It's an evil business, since ship crews are known to dump their "cargo" overboard mid-Pacific if they suspect the law knows what they are up to.
Well, that one's kind of a hard sell for me since I work 16 hour days 7 days a week and work (aside from the occasional foray onto subtalk to gas off) from the minute I wake up until I fall over each night. Such is the cost of running your own gig upstate because there's no jobs. But I'll give you this much even if I'm a slave to the mortgage company and pay more than half of what little I *do* make in taxes to be handed away to the GE's of the world ... here I still have the right to call Shrub a boob without getting run down by a tank. How much LONGER I'll have the right to do this is anybody's guess, but I savor it while it lasts.
Just a matter of perspective I s'pose ...
Civil rights is a total pack of bulls--t that people sell you to stop uprising of hungry citizens. And you all fell for it. Think you have civil rights? Think again. I was down in Chinatown one time, and I got talking to this FOB (fresh off the boat) immigrant from China. He was from the ghettos in Hunan province and he found a job working for a eatery in Chinatown. I won't publicly divulge his wages here, but suffices to say that I earn more per day as a part-time grad student teaching assistant than he does, and he works from 10am to 10pm, seven days a week. His comments really struck home: if you're in China, you have no freedom -- but you show up at work and you get food. If you're here, you have "freedom" -- but you have no money. What the hell are you going to do with freedom if you have no money? You're stuck at work seven days a week anyway.
It is going too far to indict the entire American system just because of this man's low wages. There could be several reasons why he was so poorly paid: he might lack a green card, have no education or jobs skills, or not speak English. The fact that he can get any job at all might be a fortunate thing, under these circumstances. In addition, he might very well be earning more money as time goes on.
There was a very nice Chinese resturant here in Dickinson (ND)... The people said they came from the Bronx. Their language skills said that they hadn't been there too long. INS apparently agreed, and several of them disapeared. The owner and his wife and little girl are apparently legal in this country, and are still there running the resturant, (Though the name was changed... and you would not know that it was Chinese from the name anymore.) The little girl is just wonderful... we had been watching her grow up for many years. When she came here she did not speak english, which made schooling difficult especially since there are not many Chinese speakers in North Dakota. But she was a real wizz in math... way ahead of the other students in her school so these people were clearly not bottom class people in China (or in the Bronx or wherever).
They work hard for their living, but it would seem to be that it *is* their living that they are working for.
Elias
Civil rights are for civil peoples...you do NOT have to be a citizen to receive protection. Sneak in by a back door, work for half your tips as a 'Kung Fu Charley' delivering Chinese food by bicycle and get smacked by Gupta driving a Yellow Cab. The 'Karma Wheel' spins round and round. There is a never ending story behind illegal immigration...I have firsthand experience with it servicing restaraunts and bars in the city for twenty one years. I met the illegals everyday who provide services to the city...there is still an untold story of those whose lives were lost when WTC collapsed..and the corperations that employed them to this day have done nothing for reparations. One thing that remains true...even illegals have some rights that the Bill of Rights provides for. Try that 'Schiete' out in Iraq.
BTW: power failure in Manhattan 2010 hours by my system monitors
How about a free layover in Pyongyang?
Ping Pong nuclear style with riceballs made from wood pulp and animal fat??? North Korea really knows how to build subway tunnels...I saw the one that went under the border. Mebbe we can ship em som BBD R142s and gettum fixed chopchop.
Don't be such a miser. You could add Libya to his choices.
Or Shitty Arabia. Nonstop flights from JFK, too.
'By order of the Prophets...ROCK the CASBAH.'
I balk about the Rooskies that cheated the CI exam and got work they were not qualified for...Rooskies jut WON major court decision on last Maintainance Supervisors Exam...essay part of test was THROWN OUT because administration had to recognise that they had a lack of English Comprehension and Vocabulary. What the Rooskies DO recognise is that they have rights here in the United States that were NOT available in the good old USSR. Bill of Rights FOS....just wait till the day that you are falsely accused of a crime that never took place without credible witnesses...unable to defend yourself because evidence for or against does not exist...and your word is against ficticious accusers and a governmental employee whose testimony is 'taken as Gospel Truth.' Then and only then will you truly know the power of the Bill of Rights and why our Forefathers wrote it up AFTER the Declaration of Independence. In the words of our President, Charleton Heston, is P R A V D A :
'The doorway to all Freedoms is framed with muskets.' CI Peter
>>Civil rights is a pile of shit<<
Since you feel this way I will deplete the funds for my college tuition just to give youy a one way ticket to an Iraqui prison. All expenses paid.
>>> Civil rights is a pile of shit <<<
Isn't about time the United States got rid of all the aliens who take advantage of what the United States has to offer, but fail to appreciate what makes it so well loved by its citizens? We would be so much better off without them.
Tom
Oink oink oink...
Meaaaahhhhhhh
This could be the start of a thread on a bridge across the Bering Strait.
I propose one with three decks: oil pipeline, RR and road. The bridge should be linked to a new road from Nome to Fairbanks, and the whole Alaska highway should be made into an interstate (I propose extending I-15).
How about extending the Pan-American Highway? That way you can have a highway that goes though every continent in the world, expect Antarctica. Call it the Pan-Terra highway.
Make a bridge, I think the distance between South America and Antarctica is close enough for it to be feasible, if there was anyone actually on Antarctica to use it.
But what Interstate does the Pan American Highway use to get through the US? The Alaska Highway is officially part of the Pan American Highway, but then what happens at Dawson Creek, BC?
The Pan Terra Highway won't go to Australia though, although a Trans-Indonesia Highway extended to Australia would be cool. The Torres Strait (bet New Guinea and Australia) has a bunch of islands that might make bridge-building easy, and it is only 500 feet deep. The problem would be the deeper waters between the islands east of Java.
Just put it in the "build by 2100" column.
Crikey, I forgot about the Aussies. There is no offical route thru the mainland US, I guess you just have to pick any interstate or US highway that will get you to Mexico and points south. Also, there is a gap in Columbia or Panama (Darien Gap, or something like that) where the rainforest is too thick to pass and you have to make a detour around it.
The problem would be the deeper waters between the islands east of Java.
Heck, J2EE 1.5 should take care of that :) (duck, run)
--Mark
It could be done - but what about the bergs?
I remember seeing in a Popular Mechanics magazine a plan for a Trans-Bering Strait bridge. It would be a cable-stayed largely-prefab bridge with everything swadled in concrete, to protect it from the elements. It was like a massive causeway, which just happened to have it's piers spread far apart and used something other than the road deck to keep it together. The piers were made in a hyperbolic shape, thick at the bottom, curving inwards as they went up, and then fattening back out at the top, like the cooling towers of a Nuclear Powerplant. They said that this was to deflect Ice Flows, which could prove a bigger problem. The design was much like AP described it, road deck, then rails, then pipes. But the road deck was exposed, that seems assinine to me, with crosswinds of 60mph, do you really want cars up on the deck. Actually the whole idea of a road up there seems like an even more massive waste than a rail-bridge or tunnel. Just the trip from Anchorage to Nome would be like NY-Chi, just a whole lot more bleak than Indiana and Ohio, imagine a roadtrip on an interstate through siberia, fun, huh? Even if it was all rail, you'd need to enclose that as well, and then, since it's enclosed, you need to ensure that it will be aerodynamic, or it'll be the Tacoma Narrows all over again, cept this one would be carrying 300pax trains and moving thousands of gallons per minute of various crudes.
With all that, I'd say just dig it, it may not be very scenic, but we're not talking a very scenic place at all are we?
Of course all of this will happen after the Sicily Italy Bridge is completed, after the US becomes electrified enough to run a suitable HSR network, after the Mediterranean is crossed at Gibralter, and maybe, just maybe, after the Orbital Bridge is completed (but not if spaceflight goes on in the stagnation that it is now). I'd say Arthur C. Clarkes old saying on the Space Elevator, that it'd get built, "50 Years after people stopped laughing," definitely comes into play here.
imagine a roadtrip on an interstate through siberia, fun, huh
Yes. I want to drive up the Dalton Highway (AK-11) to Prudhoe Bay on the Arctic Ocean. It would be so much more fun to drive through the wilderness and then cross the International Date Line. Although the Arctic Circle is cool too.
With all that, I'd say just dig it, it may not be very scenic, but we're not talking a very scenic place at all are we?
Tunnels suck. If we're going to Moses up the wilderness, we might as well build a bridge. The road approaching it would have to be on the surface, it might even be elevated on account of the tundra.
after the Orbital Bridge is completed
The what? Is that the same as the space elevator?
And, finally, when all these projects are finished, we'll see a complete Second Avenue Subway in New York.
I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak goes to London we have a trans-Indoeuropean Highway before the 2nd Avenue Subway.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bridge across the ATLANTIC before the Second Avenue Subway.
I want to drive up the Dalton Highway (AK-11) to Prudhoe Bay on the Arctic Ocean.
I've driven up the Dempster Highway (through the NWT of Canada) to the Arctic Ocean, up above the Artic Circle.
It was a great drive from Brooklyn, to the wilderness, but you need to bring extra gasoline with you just in case.
Pictures:
Here, here and here.
-Larry
Or try this link:
Link
Link
You can't get all the way there. If you are referring to the "Haul Road" in Alaska, then you can only drive to the general vicinity of the port. Then the road is closed except for authorized oil company or official state government traffic.
You can't get all the way there. If you are referring to the "Haul Road" in Alaska, then you can only drive to the general vicinity of the port. Then the road is closed except for authorized oil company or official state government traffic.
According to a report posted on misc.transport.road a while back, visitors are allowed to go right up to the road's end at the Arctic Ocean if they sit through a video presentation shown by the oil companies (which basically amounts to propaganda about how they're really, really nice to the environment).
All this talk about highways and not about transit, sounds like Robert Moses! LOL
How about a Trans-Atlantic subway to connect New York with London?
"Stillwell Avenue, next stop Uxbridge, watch the closing doors"
Say "Mind the closing doors", it is a line to both London and NYC so I think it is fitting to combine their announcements.
"All passports please!"
... and mind the gap!
That is why it is Mind the closing doors, although Stand clear of the closing doors is used quite often. IT is a combination of Mind the Gap and Stand Clear of the Closing Doors.
Heh, in 1977, there was a scheme to build a subway between NY and LA via Dallas, with connections to Chicago and Cleveland, that would charge $1.00 per minute of travel. Speeds would be "restricted" to 6,000 mph to maintain your present weight (since speeds higher than that increase your weight). So the fare from NY to LA would be about $54.00. I can imagine, had this ever come to fruition, that we'd be complaining about the timers the National Transportation Administration set up under the Sierra Nevada ....
--Mark
There actually have been some semi-serious proposals for a Bering Straits tunnel. One pesky detail is the fact that there aren't any roads or rail lines within hundreds of miles of either side.
In 1960, Alaska proposed an interstate (4 lanes, median, shoulders, the works) all the way to Nome. Needless to say the federal government passed on funding the project.
It wasn't called, uh, WestWay, was it? :)
--mark
Wonderful idea. Of course, to achieve through trains from North America to Western Europe we would have to persuade the Russians to narrow their track gauge to 4'8.5".......... But at least the Channel Tunnel is already there!
A favourite fantasy project of mine is a Britain to Ireland rail tunnel. The Irish use 5' gauge too, but they might be more persuadable to narrow it than the Russians (so long as the Eurpoean Union paid, of course!).
Actually, the Russian rail system is MOST interesting. Because the Russians are (justifiably) concerned about being invaded, they ingeniously designed their railroad to have all SORTS of random gauges and along their rights of way, they have cranes in barns that lift the coaches off the trucks (and passengers can REMAIN in the car while this is done) and onto new trucks of a different gauge to continue their travels.
No problem, Comrade. If you've got the wheels, we've got the borscht. :)
According to the Amtrak website there are a couple of trains between Chicago and Toronto that stop at London, Ontario.
So it does go to London after all (LOL).
A plan that is worthy of discussion and serious consideration:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/22/nyregion/22BRID.html
Only makes sense if the MTA charges tolls on the bridges, and Pataki tells the Daily News no way.
Of course, after the election the tune may change, no matter who wins.
Actually, I'd prefer the reverse - shifting MTA Bridges & Tunnels to NYCDOT (in order to keep existing toll revenues within the city), in exchange for MTA Bus taking over DOT's bus business (including title to the buses and city-owned depots). I even posted this idea on BusTalk a couple of days ago, as "A Fair/Fare Exchange?"
"Actually, I'd prefer the reverse - shifting MTA Bridges & Tunnels to NYCDOT (in order to keep existing toll revenues within the city), in exchange for MTA Bus taking over DOT's bus business (including title to the buses and city-owned depots). I even posted this idea on BusTalk a couple of days ago, as "A Fair/Fare Exchange?" "
If I were running MTA, I'd be crazy to go for that. Why should I give you a money-making business in return for your giving me a money-losing one? If the city finds it difficult to manage the bridges, handing them to MTA removes the hassles from city departments and lets MTA do a job it already knows how to handle.
"(in order to keep existing toll revenues within the city)"
You can solve that by specifying it in the transfer agreement. It's an important detail.
Also the MTA already has a fulfilment operation set up for easy pass.
East river bridge tolls is crazy for one reason
Where are you putting the toll boths. None of the bridges has room on either side to build a toll plaza. The only way it can work is to have easy pass only with no toll boths. All other comuters need to use midtown tunnel or battery tunnel
Bloomberg's proposal already turns MTA B&T into a money-losing business by adding considerable expenses without adding revenues.
Possibly, but the MTA will not accept it like that. The devil is in the details, as they say.
One really has to be careful when around politicians, especially somebody trying to sell the Brooklyn Bridge.
Ha! You made a funny!
Why is driving all of the sudden a sin? Its bad enough smokers have become the scum of the earth the past 30 years, now everyone, at least in NYC hates drivers. Drivers pay enough, between gas, insurance, registration, etc. its just sadistic to charge someone just to drive across the 59th Street Bridge. With the exception of possibly the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel where in the U.S. do you have to pay so much just to cross a bridge, especially when it's in the same city?
The high tolls on the TBTA/MTA Bridges and Tunnels were part of a scam by Robert Moses to keep himself in power by keeping the TBTA a perpetual entity. Originally the tolls were supposed to end when the bridges/tunnels were paid for (like the Southern State Toll in Valley Stream or the Lido Pkway Toll) but the power broker devised a loophole with the bonds that they can always be renewed when they matured.
I don't understand why subway riders and railfans want the tolls anyway. Do they really want a big increase in ridership on the already crowded trains?
Another thing is tourism and business. NYC lost a lot of tourism and business with the WTC attacks. Putting tolls on all East River Crossings can only add to the losses of tourism and business. I know I would not be going to Manhattan nearly as often, only when absolutely necessary.
Tourists do not come from Long Island... The come from the rest of the country, which is on the West of the Hudson River. Even then especially, the tourists should park in New Jersey and take traisit into the city. I mean, what cowboy from North Dakota even knows how to drive on a road with other cars on it!?
Elias
Although I used the word tourists I really meant including day trippers which can be from Long Island, or for that matter the other four boroughs.
"I don't understand why subway riders and railfans want the tolls anyway. Do they really want a big increase in ridership on the already crowded trains? "
No. We want to help MTA achieve more consistent operational budget control, which this will help. It will also help make easier funding Capital projects like new rolling stock, subways and LIRR services, which will take care of the increased ridership.
Increased ridership is still a good thing.
I don't understand why subway riders and railfans want the tolls anyway. Do they really want a big increase in ridership on the already crowded trains?
Another thing is tourism and business. NYC lost a lot of tourism and business with the WTC attacks. Putting tolls on all East River Crossings can only add to the losses of tourism and business. I know I would not be going to Manhattan nearly as often, only when absolutely necessary.
Tolling the East River bridges would be akin to sweeping dust under the carpet. New York (both State and City) are in poor financial condition because of long-term structural problems, mainly their obscene levels of Medicaid spending. Tolling the bridges would bring in a little extra money now, though at the risk of alienating more and more businesses, but it won't address the Medicaid issue. Indeed, the extra toll money will make the issue a little less urgent for the time being and therefore will push off any serious attempts at a permanent solution.
like the Southern State Toll in Valley Stream or the Lido Pkway Toll
Don't you mean the Loop Parkway?
I think the toll there was eliminated after Sonny Corleone's unfortunate "accident."
like the Southern State Toll in Valley Stream or the Lido Pkway Toll
Don't you mean the Loop Parkway?
I think the toll there was eliminated after Sonny Corleone's unfortunate "accident."
The "accident" which featured the famous self-repairing windshield.
Yes, at least they both begin with "L".
Why is driving all of the sudden a sin? Its bad enough smokers have become the scum of the earth the past 30 years, now everyone, at least in NYC hates drivers.
Because they both create air pollution?
Driving is heavily subsidized by govt at all levels. It's only fair that drivers reimburse some of the costs associated with paving the roads, etc. for them. Of course, how much is too much depends on whether you own a car.
Suppose NYS raised annual registration fees to something approaching the pro-rata cost of the automobile infrastructure? We could get rid of all the tolls.
Take it from a transit advocate of many decades--do not bother to make purely economic arguments against automobiles. You will lose.
There are many other arguments to be made, about the environment, efficiency and quality of life. That's where you put your interest.
Take it from a transit advocate of many decades--do not bother to make purely economic arguments against automobiles. You will lose.
Because the arguments are flawed or because nobody will listen to them?
There are many other arguments to be made, about the environment, efficiency and quality of life. That's where you put your interest.
But those are also economic arguments.
Take it from a transit advocate of many decades--do not bother to make purely economic arguments against automobiles. You will lose.
Because the arguments are flawed or because nobody will listen to them?
Because the arguments revolve around the idea that motorists don't pay the costs of driving. The most essential problem in the argument is that almost everyone in the U.S. (SF and NYC being exceptions) use automobiles are their prime source of transportation, so the question doesn't become whether motorists are paying the financial costs, but which of their pockets the money is coming from.
Even given that roads are mostly constructed by government and used "free," and even if you decide that these costs aren't fully paid by the users, motorists have to purchase their own vehicles, finance them, insure them, maintain them and provide the labor to operate them, none of which the transit rider does directly.
The battle between transit and autos ended decades ago--and the autos won. Transit advocates need to consider this the "post-battle" era and emphasize the advantages of good transit instead of continue to war on motorists. It's not a quixotic argument, transit is gaining all over the US, but not in transit city.
Because the arguments revolve around the idea that motorists don't pay the costs of driving. The most essential problem in the argument is that almost everyone in the U.S. (SF and NYC being exceptions) use automobiles are their prime source of transportation, so the question doesn't become whether motorists are paying the financial costs, but which of their pockets the money is coming from.
Good point. Unless the discussion is limited to the NYC region or a similar area, of course motorists pay the costs of driving, since practically everyone is a motorist.
That's why I take a different approach. I ask (in some form) if an individual who decides, for whatever reason, not to drive (either on a regular basis or in a particular case) is expected to fund the roads as if he had decided to drive.
But we are discussing the NYC region here. Most NYC residents are not motorists, and most of the people who cross the East River do not do so by private automobile. So asking whether those few who do drive cover their costs is perfectly appropriate.
That's why I take a different approach. I ask (in some form) if an individual who decides, for whatever reason, not to drive (either on a regular basis or in a particular case) is expected to fund the roads as if he had decided to drive.
That's a problematic argument because it can be debated on multiple levels.
On a philosophic level, do people who don't use a service (police, fire, roads, transit) have to pay taxes to support it? Consistently, the courts have said yes.
Do people who provide the same service at their own expense (parochial schools, medical care) have to pay for the public version for others, thus paying twice? Again, the courts have said yes.
And even beyond that, do people who object to the provision of a public service on ethical or political grounds have to pay for it? Same answer, yes.
Were you successful in exempting transit users from paying for certain highway related things, you would open the way for non-transit users to challenge the payment of taxes that benefit transit. There include the general fund taxes, such as general sales and income, that partly fund transit, but also taxes all or part of which are dedicated to transit.
These include the MTA surcharge, paid by all in the MTA region, and the Petroleum Business Tax, levied only on motorists.
But we are discussing the NYC region here. Most NYC residents are not motorists, and most of the people who cross the East River do not do so by private automobile. So asking whether those few who do drive cover their costs is perfectly appropriate.
Funny how discussions keep bring up different issues, but New York City people are more dependent on roads than think, even the proverbial Little Old Lady who lives in her small apartment in Greenwich Village with her cat and never goes out except to the Gristede's a few blocks away.
New York City, partly through its shortsightedness, is ridiculuously dependent on its highways for everything but human movement. To wit:
"The New York City metropolitan region is the only major economic area in the United States that has a freight transportation system that is almost completely dependent on its highway system. In the New York City metropolitan area, 97% of freight is moved via truck versus 3% by rail. All other major metropolitan regions are roughly balanced at 60% truck versus 40% via rail [...]" -- "Cross Harbor Freight Movement" study published by the New York City Economic Development Corporation in May 2000.
So even if the little old lady never drives on the highway, without it her cat starves.
And, might I add, while this goes on people debate whether to make the High Line a nature path.
That's a problematic argument because it can be debated on multiple levels.
On a philosophic level, do people who don't use a service (police, fire, roads, transit) have to pay taxes to support it? Consistently, the courts have said yes.
Do people who provide the same service at their own expense (parochial schools, medical care) have to pay for the public version for others, thus paying twice? Again, the courts have said yes.
And even beyond that, do people who object to the provision of a public service on ethical or political grounds have to pay for it? Same answer, yes.
I'm not suggesting that special transportation exemptions be granted in special cases. I'm suggesting that transportation be removed outright from the list of tax-supported services. Unlike the examples you listed, I've seen few convincing reasons transportation should be tax-supported -- and I've seen many reasons it shouldn't be. (In the past, one reason transportation -- roads, in particular -- had to be tax-supported was that collecting user fees would be practically impossible. Now we have E-ZPass and similar systems, so that reason no longer applies.)
Were you successful in exempting transit users from paying for certain highway related things, you would open the way for non-transit users to challenge the payment of taxes that benefit transit. There include the general fund taxes, such as general sales and income, that partly fund transit, but also taxes all or part of which are dedicated to transit.
I would open the way? I would insist on it!
In a city like NYC, there's no question in my mind that, if roads and transit were to become fully self-sufficient, the price of a subway ride would drop and the price of a car trip would rise -- probably by a lot. Elsewhere in the U.S., the car would continue to rule -- for now, at least. Over time, I expect other areas of the county to realize that they could save money by densifying and adopting transit systems.
Let me be clear, though, that I would insist that no subsidies in any form go to any mode of transportation. Dozens of hidden subsidies would need to be eliminated. This is perhaps the most difficult element of the plan, and it has to be done right.
Funny how discussions keep bring up different issues, but New York City people are more dependent on roads than think, even the proverbial Little Old Lady who lives in her small apartment in Greenwich Village with her cat and never goes out except to the Gristede's a few blocks away.
Why does everyone treat road use as a binary issue? Consider to what extent the Little Old Lady uses the roads. (Probably an average of a few cubic feet inside a truck per day, and after that trucks delivers the LOL's groceries it goes on to handle other deliveries.) Compare that to the extent that someone who owns and uses a car uses the roads. (When the car is being actively used, it's taking up, well, however much space a car takes up, and it's spewing forth however much pollution a car spews forth. When the car is parked, it's still taking up that same space, and much of the time it's parked it's probably parked on city property.)
To put it a different way, what would the streets look like if everybody lived like the LOL? They'd be empty. Wide avenues could be narrowed, giving more space to pedestrians. Trucks wouldn't have to sit in traffic jams, which raise prices for everyone. The city would simply be a much more pleasant place to be. But not everyone lives like the LOL. Shouldn't those individuals collectively responsible for destroying that hypothetical paradise be expected to pay for their destruction?
New York City, partly through its shortsightedness, is ridiculuously dependent on its highways for everything but human movement.
And that's exactly why we need to eliminate transportation subsidies!
At first, prices will rise to accomodate the new tolls. At the same time, though, taxes will drop. Many if not most in NYC will find that their total expenses have dropped.
Over time, shipping firms, now paying the full cost of trucking (and passing that cost on to their customers), will realize that they could save money (and pass those savings on to their customers, thereby becoming more competitive in the shipping market) by building and using rails. Ta da!
I agree that infrastructure should pay for itself, and only for itself. Otherwise, it is crowded out by more politically potent goals (the elderly, tax cuts), deferred maintenance occurs, and new investments do not. If the water and sewer system were not self-funded, it would be in much worse shape. To see what free means, look at those nice free public restrooms -- even in one of the highest tax jurisidictions in the country.
Road users should subsidize transit riders, but to a limited extent, based on "rent" for the extensive scarce road space that automobiles require, and that transit riders have an equal right to but ceded to the drivers. The reasonable subsidy is probably more than most drivers would agree to, but much less than the Straphangers and Transportation Alternatives thinks it is. The fare is a high share of cost in NYC relative to other places because it is more extensive -- you can afford deeper subsidies for a service that only serves 5 percent of a region's neighborhoods and one percent of its people.
However, lets count those empty buses running in the middle of the night, the half-fares not paid by the elderly, and the fares not paid by the kids as a social service, not transportation. School buses don't cover their costs either.
We're largely in agreement. I wouldn't call rent payments a subsidy -- I'd call them rent payments. And I'd add ADA accomodations in general to your list of social services.
However, lets count those empty buses running in the middle of the night, the half-fares not paid by the elderly, and the fares not paid by the kids as a social service, not transportation.
Not to mention the provision of 24/7 service at nearly every subway station.
But is that what we want to do?
Think about the effect of a toll. Say there's a $3 toll on the Brooklyn Bridge. Someone considering driving across the Brooklyn Bridge will consider the price: if he does, he pays $3; if he doesn't, he keeps his $3. He then makes a decision: is it worth $3 to drive across the Brooklyn Bridge? Some people will decide to pay the $3. Others will decide to forego driving across the Brooklyn Bridge. (Just like some people will pay $3 for a box of Cheerios and others will go without Cheerios.)
Without a toll, that disincentive doesn't exist. If everything's included in registration, then, for anyone who owns a car already, the price to drive across the Brooklyn Bridge is $0. Think about what would happen if stores adopted a similar system -- pay an annual registration fee and take as much as you like during the year. Would annual "sales" rise? Of course! In fact, there might be long lines just to get to the more popular items in the store -- just like there are long lines on our more popular roads.
Furthermore, not everyone registered in New York State uses the Brooklyn Bridge, and some people registered in other states do use the Brooklyn Bridge. If registration fees paid for maintenance on the Brooklyn Bridge, a Buffalo resident who's never been to NYC would be stuck paying for the bridge while a Jersey City resident who drives to Brooklyn every day wouldn't be paying for it at all.
You're making an essential point about automobile usage and how its paid for. The issue isn't that motorists don't pay enough of the expense of driving--it's that most all of the major costs of using a car are unrelated or only slightly related to use.
The one cost of driving (gasoline) which has a direct bearing on use is heavily taxed.
We've been through this movie before.
From Mayor Hylan on, New York mayors made the private companies their whipping boy over the five cent fare. When the City got the transit system in 1940, it became their problem, so they managed to pass the problem off to the State in 1953, so the City could do what it does best--blame others for its problems.
Now Bloomy wants to "sell" the bridges to the MTA (i.e., the State) to "move away from transportation responsibilities that are better handled regionally."
Yeah, right. He wants the State to take over his political heat so that he can tax motorists, remove his responsibility to take care if the crumbling bridges, cretae a cash cow for the City, and blame any bad results on the State.
Well at least the MTA won't be able to shift blame to the DOT any more when Manhattan Bridge subway track repairs are delayed...
Mayor Bloomberg seems to be "solving" the city's budget problems, at least in part, by merely shifting costs to the MTA. That begs the question: Will the associated revenues (fares, state/federal operating assistance) also be shifted, or will he keep them?
Good question. As I replied to you before, MTA does not have to accept his proposal without changes.
The MTA (i.e., New York State) doesn't have to accept his proposal at all.
The City has made a mess of maintaining its own bridges, and wants to slough off the responsibility to the State. PLUS, it wants the state to PAY for the provilege.
The City doesn't have the money? The City has the money for what it wants to spend the money on.
Good point.
(The City doesn't have the money? The City has the money for what it wants to spend the money on.)
Nonsense. The city has no money. The state legislature takes a chunk for Medicaid, and another chunk for pension enhancements. Then there is debt service. And state court mandates for the homeless. The king of cost shifting is the State of New York. Just ask your county executive. And vote against Pataki and your state legislators.
The City has encouraged that very Medicaid spending that it wrings its hands over because each dollar of City money brings in a dollar of state money and two dollars of federal money.
The City and advocates have said as much.
(The City has encouraged that very Medicaid spending that it wrings its hands over because each dollar of City money brings in a dollar of state money and two dollars of federal money. The City and advocates have said as much.)
They are wrong. Each dollar of excess state funds for Medicaid has been exchanged for a reduction of $1.25 in what should be the city's share of school aid. And each dollar of excess federal funds for Medicaid has been exchanged for a reduction in funds for transportation. This is a story that the advocates, the city's represenatatives in Albany, and those elsewhere do not want to hear.
Look at the numbers. The million people on welare aren't there anymore -- and when they were there the Greater Rochester Chamber of Commerce found that NYC had a net loss to the rest of the state, despite being poorer than average.
The City has encouraged that very Medicaid spending that it wrings its hands over because each dollar of City money brings in a dollar of state money and two dollars of federal money. The City and advocates have said as much.
They are wrong. Each dollar of excess state funds for Medicaid has been exchanged for a reduction of $1.25 in what should be the city's share of school aid. And each dollar of excess federal funds for Medicaid has been exchanged for a reduction in funds for transportation. This is a story that the advocates, the city's represenatatives in Albany, and those elsewhere do not want to hear.
Medicaid spending is sure to remain hyperinflated because it is supported by a very strong consistency. It may be a slight exaggeration to say that 1199 runs the city ... emphasize the word "slight." Bloomberg and Pataki would rather drink Liquid Drano than do anything that would upset Dennis Rivera.
That's OK ... the Dennis Rivera deal was SOLELY to get a political endorsement. Once we get past Wednesday, November 5th, there'll be a lot of hand-wringing, the *REAL* numbers will come out and they'll blow off the deal on him. Been there, done that, seen this three card monty game before. Ask Touissant what a deal means once the heat's off the politicos. These guys we have in office are WORLD CLASS players ... watch. :)
(the Dennis Rivera deal was SOLELY to get a political endorsement. Once we get past Wednesday, November 5th, there'll be a lot of hand-wringing, the *REAL* numbers will come out and they'll blow off the deal on him. Been there, done that, seen this three card monty game before.)
I hope they slash Medicaid reimbursements in half. To think, our Democratic "representatives" in Albany and Washington agreed to allow NYC to be shafted in every other way in exchange for Medicaid payments that were double the national average. Then the hospitals, nursing homes, unions, etc. turned around and sold the Democrats out to get even more (couldn't happen to nicer guys). And, on top of that, we STILL have among the highest levels of uninsured in the country, and a series of scandals about inadequate care for Medicaid funded services for the elderly, mentally ill, etc. Double for nothing, so they raised it even higher! Someone should go to jail.
Connecticut will soon be making loud noises about the MTA restructuring. They want their 2 cents heard since Metro-North is the second largest railroad in the US and the New Haven Line is the busiest part of MN and they currently have no say in anything.
It's going to be interesting to say the least !!
"and they currently have no say in anything."
Or so they are fond of saying. Hey, in politics, "whatever works for ya..."
"They want their 2 cents heard since Metro-North is the second largest railroad in the US and the New Haven Line is the busiest part of MN and they currently have no say in anything."
Who says CT has no say in MNRR New Haven Line operation? My personal experience is that New Haven Line trains that go to CT tend to be less crowded than ones that terminate in NY State. Of course, that may be because CT has paid for a lot of equipment.
The MTA doesn't help defray costs of the branch lines (New Caanan, Danbury, Waterbury). The new cars they ordered were not for the New Haven line (and can't run there anyway).
My personal experience is that New Haven Line trains that go to CT tend to be less crowded than ones that terminate in NY State.
Just take some of the trains that I take. It's usually SRO.
Of course, that may be because CT has paid for a lot of equipment.
.
That's because the MTA didn't.
[They want their 2 cents heard since Metro-North is the second largest railroad in the US and the New Haven Line is the busiest part of MN and they currently have no say in anything.]
Yes, "they" do have a say. Is Connecticut DOT required to use the new "MTA Railroads" as its contract carrier on the New Haven Line? Perhaps ConnDOT could hire Amtrak instead, as it did for Shore Line East.
[They want their 2 cents heard since Metro-North is the second largest railroad in the US and the New Haven Line is the busiest part of MN and they currently have no say in anything.]
Yes, "they" do have a say. Is Connecticut DOT required to use the new "MTA Railroads" as its contract carrier on the New Haven Line? Perhaps ConnDOT could hire Amtrak instead, as it did for Shore Line East..
Frying Pan. Fire?
"Perhaps ConnDOT could hire Amtrak instead, as it did for Shore Line East."
Probably not legal, unless the train stopped and changed crews at the NY border.
JRF, you didn't notice that you made the 400,000th post?
I didn't know !!!
WOW !!!!
As I understand it, NJ Transit runs the (NY part of the) Pascack Valley and Port Jervis lines under contract with Metro-North. So is that how it works with the NH lines--Metro-North runs it under contract with the Connecticut DOT? Or is it something else?
:-) Andrew
As I understand it, NJ Transit runs the (NY part of the) Pascack Valley and Port Jervis lines under contract with Metro-North. So is that how it works with the NH lines--Metro-North runs it under contract with the Connecticut DOT? Or is it something else?
I'm not certain, but I believe ConnDOT chips in money but doesn't actually have a contract with Metro-North.
Conn DOT chips in money, but since they have no members on the MTA board their opionions and concerns generally fall on deaf ears.
An example: As i understand it, Connecticut is paying for the catenary replacement from the NY border to New Haven. Nothing from the MTA.
There's nothing wrong with the State of Connecticut chipping in to pay commuter rail expenses. Besides, things get done faster that way. And, don't forget that Connecticut and the part of NY north of the city are where the catenary needs replacement badly.
There's nothing wrong with the State of Connecticut chipping in to pay commuter rail expenses
I didn't say that that they shouldn't pay anything. I said that they shouldn't pay everything !!
And, don't forget that Connecticut and the part of NY north of the city are where the catenary needs replacement badly
The NY part was done already with the MTA contributing some money.
"I didn't say that that they shouldn't pay anything. I said that they shouldn't pay everything !!"
Why shouldn't NY pay for improvements in NY and CT pay for all improvements in CT? Do you have any actual evidence that CT is being forced to spend a disproportionate amount of money to secure its share of New Haven Line services?
Why shouldn't NY pay for improvements in NY and CT pay for all improvements in CT?
I think you missed the point. The MTA helped defray the cost in NY and won't help in CT.
The MTA gets its money from taxes collected in New York from New York residents and businesses. Connnecticut residents get to ride on the New York funded part of the line without contributing anything to it. The number of New Yorkers on the Connecticut funded part of the line is comparatively small.
Connecticut has lower poverty, lower taxes, and vastly more school spending than NYC, and you are upset because New York taxes aren't being used to pay for infrastructure improvements in Connecticut? Geez.
Why would Connecticut make noise ?? they get same service if its called Metro-North or if its called MTA rail.
The Contract stays the same with funding of New Haven line devided 33% New York and 66% by Connecticut.
the Capital investment is paid by each state individualy.
the New Haven Fleet is same aproximatly 33% MTA cars and 66% CDOT cars.
only service 100 % is the New Haven Branch lines, who's trains do not stop or service New York.
I think with an average of 95% on time performance they got nothing to complain about other than that their legislature is not comming up with funding for new Cars to replace the 30 year old M2 fleet that is nearing its end of service life.
How come the IRT seems to be much more liberal with speed than the IND? The IND takes curves at a snail's pace, even though the curves and switches were designed for high speed. The IRT seems to put the USS Enterprise to shame when it comes to express runs and curves. And, I'm sure even Spock would clutch the railing when taking an N or R train through the 60th Street river tunnel. All the divisions are under the same "umbrella", so what gives with the IND?
At least some of it is perception. Because (at least some of) the IRT tunnels are narrower (and all of the cars are), it appears that the columns are "rushing by" faster. In addition, because the IRT cars tend to be lighter, they may get up to speed faster. Finally, the newest cars (most of which are on the IRT) have computer-controlled propulsion systems that seem to do better on up-grades than the older equipment does now that it has lost field shunting capability (for information on field shunting, search the index...there are many postings on it).
David
Ferenge 'Rules of Aquisition' of course. Rule # 517...what is mine is mine and I must not wreck what is mine. CI Peter
Well, I don't rely on sight to look at the pilars. Perhaps the cars being lighter is the answer, but I'd still like to have a look at the spedometer. :) Thanks.
So take a look. Speedometers are visible through the window on the R-62 and R-62A and through the cab door hinge on all current equipment older than the R-40.
I took a 4 local to Bedford from 59th, we crawled underground, it was not the IRT of my youth.
It does seem that IRT cars are much speedier, but David already covered that aspect.
As for the 60th st tube, the N and W trains are coming off a downgrade and then into a tunnel which continues at a downgrade with no timers that would limit speed. But in other parts of the system, BMT and IND trains move at about the same speeds. Trains seem to top out at approximately 40-45 mph in most east river tunnels. Express runs generally do 35-40.
The IRT is speedy? Is this the same IRT that I ride where the express trains between Brooklyn Bridge and Grand Central often never reach 30 mph, even on the mile-long straightway?
IMO, the system just got slower over the years, with all the timers, speed restrictions on bridges, especially on the Wliiy-B after that unfortunate accident in 1995.
Ok, do you ride this line during a GO?? Usually, trains reach 40-45(even the remaining redbirds)but lately there was work which slowed trains approaching Grand Central NB & SB. The Central Park express often doesn't reach 30mph and its non stop express(59-125 St)and its at least 2 miles long.
The most consistent express runs in my view without much slowdowns:
Brighton line in Brooklyn
7 Av trunk line 2,3 in Manhattan
Lex Av trunk line 4,5 in Manhattan
Flushing line peak express <7>
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
While in the city last week, I tried an experiment in which I timed several CPW express runs in both directions between 59th and 125th Sts. All equipment used on the A and D was included - R-38s, R-44s, and R-68s. These were random trains at different times except for one R-38 A train which I stayed on from 59th all the way to 207th St. and back to W. 4th one evening. Timing began the instant power was applied and ended when the train came to a full stop at the next station.
Here are the results:
R-38 R-44 R-68
Northbound 7:07, 6:46 7:20, 7:17 6:40
Southbound 7:39, 6:28 7:34 6:52
I did not include the s/b R-38 A we rode on during our railfanning expedition on Tuesday because there was a train ahead of us at 59th St. and we came to a full stop in the tunnel. The s/b run in general can be affected to a certain extent by the timers beginning at 81st St. and track congestion. The s/b R-68 D run had a clear track all the way as did the second s/b R-38 run.
This is not meant to start a new thread about which cars are faster. We've beaten that topic to death already. Again, these are random trains at different times of the day.
Let's try this again this way.
Northbound
R-38: 7:07, 6:46
R-44: 7:20, 7:17
R-68: 6:40
Southbound
R-38: 7:39, 6:28
R-44: 7:34
R-68: 6:52
Now you've gone and done it bro ... the HIPPOS were far and away the FASTEST. Me am bizarro, welcome to bizarro world. I'm not surprised and here's the good part. The arnines and 32's ran about that same timing THIRTY YEARS AGO ... hmmm. Slow railroad? Hmmm. :)
I must say the R-68s were peppier than the last few times I rode them on the D. They also moved briskly along the Broadway express tracks, especially n/b from Union Square to 34th St. Maybe they've been juiced.:) At any rate, I've been cured of any skepticism I may have had about them.
Believe it or not, I was hoping for an R-44 A train when I timed that second s/b R-38 run. But when a train of R-38s pulled into 125th St. first, I just had to take it. Turning down a railfan view would have been sacrilege, if not treason. I wasn't disappointed - that train made it to 59th St. in 6:28. Guess the timers didn't hold us up too much - we maintained 20-25 mph all the way from 81st to 59th. Not to mention there was no D train ahead of us at 59th.
Well, that's the WEIRD thing ... when we came down last Christmas, we made it a POINT of seeking out the mighty hippos, and as a former motorman, I knew how fast things should have been and where on the Brighton and the Concourse lines and the 68's on BOTH ends of the broken D were PRECISELY the same speed as they used to be where road conditions permitted. Sure I spotted some slow orders where they hadn't been before, but it sure wasn't the EQUIPMENT that had the railroad slowed down and for most of the runs, it hadn't changed in over 30 years.
I just couldn't fathom where people got the impression that the Hippos are sluggish, they AIN'T and those times pretty much confirm the same running times I remember. I just don't get it. I think that's also part of my own thing about Russianoff, some people were born to whine and I've always felt that if you're going to whine about something, it should be both of significance, and worth the effort ... don't mind me. :)
Well said, "SelkirkTMO". It is not the rolling stock, although R44's feel like they take a little longer to gain speed after 20-25mph than R68's. Yes, I am upset that they put slow speed timers on the straight run which they put not too long ago. The system has just gotten slower and I stand by that statement. I say that because of new slow speed orders and lost express runs/service i.e.:
(F):Culver express and Hillside express(EXCLUDE SPECIAL E'S TO 179)
(J):Myrtle Av to Broadway Junction
(N):Sea Beach express
(W):Astoria express, in my view it could have been fixed
What amuses me about the whole discussion is that I ran R9's in my day, and they're QUITE slow on the takeoff but had balls once they were moving. Even neutered cars were faster ... if I yanked at the same time as a 32 across the platform, I'd see the tail markers blow past me, but a few hundred feet down the railroad, the 32 would eat my blue smoke. All that field shunt did was affect the balancing speed, its absence doesn't slow down the acceleration TO the balancing speed which is now lower.
Yes, they've slowed down the railroad generally, they've added timers and new balls that I never saw before and they've got the Fear of Gawd into most of the motors these days so you don't wrap it like you used to, I'm sure ... but the equipment still works. The one thing I REALLY noticed was that the braking isn't as solid as it used to be. I'm sure there's some time lost there in the slower stops.
If you're referring to a D train of oldtimers leaving 59th St. n/b at the same time as, say, an AA or B of R-32s, then yes, the R-32s could beat the R-1/9s off the line. And you know how locals tend to zoom along while expresses seem to plod. In your day in such a scenario, did you find yourself outrunning the R-32s even before they would start to slow down for the stop at 72nd St.?
I remember going to the Museum of Natural History once on an AA train. Don't remember the equipment; it was either R-1/9s or R-32s. A D train of R-32s left 59th St. before we did and I could see its tail end ahead of us in the tunnel. There was no way we were going to catch that train; it was really moving.
I never thought the R-1/9s accelerated sluggishly; the gear pitch increased at a nice, steady pace. OTOH the Triplexes took a while to get rolling, but once they did, look out.
Northbound, we both had to climb and the 32's were quite peppy before they got ... ummm ... spayed. And yes, I'd be passing them while they were still going but once they applied, they were in the rearview like *that* ...
Back then the AA's were ALWAYS 32's, though they'd usually have a lone 42 to placate whiny west siders ("How come WE don't get an air conditioned train?") and their propulski was much like the redbirds, VERY torquey on the takeoff and lighter than an Arnine I'm certain, they'd move. But their top end was a bit weaker than an Arnine in heat, so if it were a race without stops, the Arnine would win. But Arnines DID take a bit of time to get moving.
Well, secrets be told, expresses ALWAYS ran slower than locals - you'd get up to speed and COAST a lot ... traditionally, the only reason they got there faster was because the locals had to STOP. :)
But 25 and 35 flags on the steel were quite common on express runs even back in the old days. There were damned few places you could gallop, and of course that contributed to serious, expensive track wear. I always loved the south Brooklyn run on the Brighton, as well as CPW, but I remember plenty of timers and slowdowns on the center Concourse tracks and of course that "let's see how slow we can go without stalling and rolling backwards" between Prospect and DeKalb in both directions. That piece was already pokey, can't believe they slowed it down MORE. :(
I was never one to chase timers, but I was amazed at the quantity of them on the bridge. I imagine the north side will be insane when those tracks come back.
I can vouch for the slow run between Atlantic and 7th Avs. back in the days when you were motoring and before. Northbound, it's a steep downgrade, so it has to have timers before the sharp right turn into Atlantic Av. Southbound, it's a steep upgrade, no way you could've gotten a train up to speed. Southbound from 7th Av. to Prospect Park was always fast back then (I estimate about 40 mph) until the curve under Malbone, which always had a wicked timer. Northbound from Prospect Park to 7th Av. it usually wasn't slow, the slowdowns were before the squeeze entering Propsect Park or before Dekalb Av.
Yep, that's pretty much what I remember ... couldn't get over how pokey it is, though the southbound timer from hell still lives. Oh how I wished I carried a Louisville slugger in the cab to give that ball the mailbox treatment. :)
That uphill from Atlantic to 7th on an R1/9 must have been an adventure every time. Seems like it would have been a good place for the ol' gals to lay down and die.
Actually, it wasn't all that bad ... on my trip to Branford though when I got a chance to take 1689 out in the rain, I did get to remember WHEEL SLIPPAGE ... if the timers got you on the upgrade, you did have to be careful how you wrapped them. Arnines rarely stalled though on that climb. The BRIDGE though, on a juicy morning, that was another story entirely northbound. :)
>>> And, I'm sure even Spock would clutch the railing when taking an N or R train through the 60th Street river tunnel <<<
You realize don't you that the N and R trains and their predecessors as well as the 60th Street tunnel were never part of the IRT. And at one time the IND's A train on the CPW dash was truly the fastest way to get to Sugar Hill in Harlem.
Tom
Yeah, when the R-10s ruled supreme, Duke Ellington was true to his word.
Hope you realize that when the Duke wrote that tune, there weren't any R-10's on the IND. They came almost 10 years later. He was talking about the Arnines in that tune. :)
>>> Hope you realize that when the Duke wrote that tune <<<
Give credit where credit is due, "Take the A Train" was written by Billy Stayhorn, who wrote it to impress the Duke with his composing talent from directions he was given to get to Duke Ellington's home for their first meeting.
Tom
My apologies for not digging deeper, but yes, you're absolutely right.
Quite true. Let's just say the R-10s kept the tradition alive. So did the slant R-40s when they took over.
Yeah, that's something I still can't get over - I remember the slants *SOLELY* as F trains, and the occasionaly ONE TRIP diverted E ... they were once very particular about which trains ran on which lines and you could tell what train was coming JUST by the carbodsky even without the Peter Maxx nose signs ...
Yup, that was the case at 42nd St. The R-32s would come in so quietly on the AA you wouldn't know they were there until they went by as the train was leaving the station. It was like, "Oh! That was an AA train? Man, that was quiet!" The R-1/9s lumbered in, snarling and hissing as they came to a stop. The R-10s flew into the station with a full head of steam off that nosedive south of 50th St. There was an expansion joint on the s/b express track a hundred feet or so from the south end. You could tell from the mezzanine when an A train was pulling in just by listening for the loud clack as the wheels passed over that joint.
I actually used to see the slants on the E on a regular basis back then. Because of my extreme dislike for the E, I didn't ride on them.
What? You mean to tell me you couldn't hear an R-10 from the neverending "clop-clop-clop" of the 6 inch flats on every wheel and the skreek of a car or two with brakes locked up getting dragged into the station? :)
The R-10s didn't have a flat wheel problem back then. They weren't as loud as some people think. I never had to hold my ears during a CPW dash on them.
Strange ... before and after working the TA, the clop-clop-clop was a regular feature. I'm sure the cars weren't getting dragged by bad brakes when they were newer though. :)
Ever since 1995 after the June 1995 Williamsburg Bridge collision, NYCT had been doing adjustments to the traction motors on most of the equipment to slow the trains down to where they usually will now max at 45 mph. Even with the equipment that hadn't had their traction motors modified (namely the Redbirds), the advent of timer signals on most of the mainlines, advented especially in light of the Williamsburg Bridge accident, have drastically slowed the system down. (unfortunately >:-( ) It, unfortunately, took things to happen for all of this to be instituted. As for 60th Street, the N and W can cruise along when they get a good head of speed coming down into the 60th Street tube. (My train operator I worked with the other day doing overtime on the W got the train up to 61 mph! Gotta love 60th Street!! :-) )
As a note, ZMan179 and Robert (N/E T/O) are other reasons why the system is slow!! Work with them to find out!! lol juss kidding, Z and Rob N/E T/O!!! LMAO :-D :-)
Last Sunday, Oct 20 at 11:00 am, Line 5-Lilac opened in Sao Paulo for revenue service. The press release is here, but the English half of the web site does't have any mention of it yet, so you're stuck with looking at photos unless you use Google or whatever to translate the page for you. This map shows the segment that opened.
To summarize the major parts of the release for you, the line cost US$646 million to build, and it has six stations totaling 9.4 route km. On the first week, the line will only run from 11:00 am to 3:00 pm to break in the cars and line. After that, the line will gradually work it's way up to running full time within a few weeks.
The new Alstom trains have the standard gauge of 1435mm, which is different than the rest of the system, which is 1600mm, so there is no chance of sharing equipment. The doors are 1.6 m wide and they have electronic signs to show the current and next stop. A train is six cars and is 132m long (~420 ft) and can carry a normal capacity of 1500 people. The station Santo Amaro has the distinction of being the first and only subway station in the world on a cable-stay bridge (see pic below)
They are AC powered, and you NYers shouldn't worry too much about Alstom building your new cars, since they'll have plenty of hard core experience on this line to correct the bugs for you guys- the 9.4 km line is expected to hve 350,000 riders per day. So they'll be taking a beating, but I know they'll hold up. Line 2-Green on the Metro uses DC Alstoms, and they are among my favorite rolling stock type.
They didn't say this in New York, but they did on a trip to Jerusalem, according to this story in today's New York Sun. The opening graphs are below.
New York Will Face Bus Bombs, MTA Security Czar Is Warning
City’s Prepared, Kelly Insists
BY COLIN MINER
Israel-style suicide bus bombings are headed to New York.
That’s the word of Metropolitan Transportation Authority security chief Louis Anemone and Port Authority police chief Joseph Morris who made their assessments after a five-day trip to Israel.
“This stuff is going to be imported over here,” Mr. Anemone said. “It already has, and I want people to sit up and take notice.”
The two chiefs had gone to Israel to learn about that country’s counter-terrorism programs. Their comments were originally reported in the Jerusalem Post.
The MTA declined to make Mr. Anemone available for further discussion and the Port Authority cited “security concerns” when it chose not to make Mr. Morris available to discuss his comments.
***
Of course, it's their job to think of these things and to think of ways to prevent them from happening. But it would be nice if they're going to say things like that to a foreign audience to also say them to people using the transportation in question.
They're right to take precautions.
There are a few differences between our countries.
Organization of law enforcement: Israel has a national police force reporting to a minister. So while there are some interagency rivalries involving the Shin-Bet vs. the police etc., it doesn't rise to the level we have here. Also, Israel has no written constitution, and the government has censoring rights and citizens have fewer individual rights. There are many things the Israeli government does that are clearly unconstitutional in the US.
The West Bank and Gaza harbor large concentrations of hostile and bitter people who are not under the direct control of any govt. There is no comparable pool like that over here, the Appalachias and rural Idaho notwithstanding. Further, while terrorists did come here and do damage to us, the tendency is for them not to find safe haven over the long term in the same way they can do so in foreign countries. This does not mean there is no terrorism here; it means that sustained bombing campaigns here of the type that Northern Ireland has suffered or that Israel suffers due to infiltration from the West Bank are much less likely here due to the greater likelihood of apprehension. Fellow Moslems gave up plotters to the FBI, and neither Mexico nor Canada are likely to provide safe haven for bombers infiltrating into the US.
There has been at least one attempt similar to what is going on today in Israel -- the foiled attack by militant Islamists on the Pacific Street BMT subway station five years ago. The police and FBI were able to foil that attack and arrest the plotters, IIRC in an apartment a few blocks down Atlantic Ave. from the station.
So an attack here hasn't been successful yet, but the idea is in their minds. And based on what happened after the World Trade Center attack in 1993 failed to achieve the terrorists' goal, I'm sure the MTA and PA security people are wise to realize those people aren't going to get the thought of an attack on mass transit out of their heads just because it didn't work the first time.
Israel-style suicide bus bombings are headed to New York.
That’s the word of Metropolitan Transportation Authority security chief Louis Anemone and Port Authority police chief Joseph Morris who made their assessments after a five-day trip to Israel.
What a pair of schmucks. In my naive way, I thought that paranoia was a disabling condition. Apparently, however, it hasn't hurt Louie's or Joey's careers.
>>> I thought that paranoia was a disabling condition <<<
It is, but it's not called paranoia if you think someone's out to get you, and someone is out to get you. Then it is called being cautious.
Tom
And this is all the more likely if we invade Iraq, particularly if we go about it unilaterally without the consent of the UN and Arab nations.
Can't disagree with that, but remember, in 1997 the U.S. was sending troops into Kosovo to help the Muslim population there fight off Serbian forces, and the jerks in that bomb factory on Atlantic Ave. were still trying to blow up the BMT Pacific Street station. So even if nothing ever happens in Iraq the terrorism threat from these people isn't going to drop to zero.
Oh, that's another thing. When we help them they don't notice. It's only when we don't help them that they notice, so we're "bad."
The irony here, of course, is that bombing New York and public transit repeatedly might destroy New York, but it would hardly terrorize the country. For most Americans, a bombing on a New York bus or subway is no more relavant to them than a bombing in Israel. It would take a non-native, who never leared what most of the country thinks of us, to think they are hitting "America" by hitting NY. Older cities, and rural areas, are individual things, product of a time when different parts of the country really were different.
For real terror, you have to hit the suburbs, where the mainstream of America lives. Automobile. Tract house. Shopping center. Television. The suburbs are a product of a post-1950s national culture that is basically the same everywhere. They Sniper in DC -- he's scaring America. He's shooting people at gas stations, not bombing buses.
And the irony, of course, is that he could never do it in Brooklyn. How long do you think he could get by in place with this much density without being nailed. He'd be seen for sure.
Keep in mind that the majority of people killed at the WTC came from the 'burbs.
And no, it wouldn't terrorize the country, it would just make the rest of the country bomb the people who did it to sh*t.
Well, it looks like the "Refuse Train" is scheduled to go out on weekdays during the day. I saw some jobs with 8:45am reports for 239 yard. I actually liked the job the few times I've done it. Just make sure you drink lots of coffee before you go to work.
And you did not page 'Car Inspector Murricane?' Shame on you Luch AAA...180/239th crew has 'safety meeting' at 0915 head on car every day...we do break by 0930 till 0945+. There is not one DS or sup that would not release me for something so important...as meeting my friend piloting an R-127 Gar Barge....and I would be happy to introduce you to my crew!!! You breakum..me fixumup. CI Peter
Why coffee for that as opposed to revenue service?
I should elaborate. The "Refuse Train" runs until about 7am. That's when you finally sign-out. So it's almost like working the midnight shift. You have to stay awake much later than you normally do.
Wait, you sign out at 7am, but sign in when?
You forget the other mandatory equipment for midnights, other than coffee, which are earplugs to get some reasonable sleep during the next day!!
You sign-in between 8:45 and 9:30pm depending on which garbage train you get.
It must be GO related. You don't usually get to see it during the day.
You should have seen the train last night. Three work motors and 4 flats. What?!?
EP003 - 2 Flats - EP004 - 2 Flats - EP005 (Consist)
Someone trying a new Refuse Train Arrangement?
-Stef
EPs come in for inspection 7-3 shift with 239th team #6....they handled the last batch of #2 Redbirds and now stand 'backfill' beyond the 239th 'troubles crew.' Some of them get flipped to 180th/239 when idle. So when Luch AAA rolls in with the EPs and flats, I'd be happy to fill his 'MacBagget.' Same goes for any other visiting SubTalkers...they are always welcome by me in the place I have found a home. Of course, NYCTA pass and PPE are mandatory. CI Peter
I didn't catch the numbers, but that's what the refuse train I saw Friday afternoon looked like.
I think we get EP001 to EP008....these are special R62s built for work service (R-127.) Four DC motors, two battery modules, sixteen brake shoes, additional air resevoir tanks upstairs and NO dynamic braking. Trainset uses GE 'E-cam' modules instead of the group boxes we are accustomed to...just six sets of power contact 'tips' to change out if necessary as against cleaning and checking the myriad of LV and HV contacts in R33s. Garbage flats haul two yard containers...check out air lines, replace worn composite brake shoes and adjust automatic/manual slack adjusters....'Fuji Heavy Industries.' Yup, youbreakumwefixumupchopchop. Only problems encountered have been with Redbirds I have scrapped turned over to work service....R-127s always return to 'foot the bill.' CI Peter
Is the lack of dynamic Breaking in the R127's a good thing?
What I was told is that dynamic braking is not present because of the torque and weight load of the EPs/flatcars. These trainsets do not 'fly' between stations like express trains and the flats have ONLY pneumatic braking available. Expecting the EP car to slow down with loaded flats using only the dynamic braking package of the EP is probably very risky....hence, full engagement of all truck pneumatic brakes is warrarnted all the time.
One thing about EPs...R62s have air conditioning...EPs have only ventilation. Years ago, I serviced two-way radios in garbage truck cabs and always carried out a stench that lasted for hours. The EP carbody is arranged as a locker room with a standing 'shop floor' steel desk. Must take a special breed of T/O to sit all day with the wafting aroma of fermenting containers. CI Peter
PU! There's nothing like the smell of garbage to get U through the day.
-Stef
Urban version of "fresh country scent" ... every time they use that set of words to describe some stink out of a can, all we think about up here is manure spreaders. Sometimes garbage can be more PLEASANTLY fragrant. :)
Oh manure spreaders...you country boyz up North have not encountered Ise Japanese factory chicken egg farms...stuff is applicated as dry in Harmony Township, New Jersey but when whetted down....combined with dried sewarage sludge...an olifactory marvel of scientific agricultural engineering. Phoney farmer neighbors cow plops adjacent to my estate stink and attract flies but almost nothing compares with a street full of DOGSCHTZ on a hot summer day. I'm sure TA has proper deoderants BUT 'Tough Guy' conquers all...nothing like the clean and fresh smell of a urinal to greet your special lady. CI Peter
Ahem. Across in Rensselaer and over in Schoharie, we had HOG farms. I'll see your chicken and raise you a porker. Ooooo-weee. Even "Blue stuff" didn't cover THAT. :)
Interesting! Thanks for responding OnTheJuice!!
Thanks guys. LuchAAA is one of those special breed of T/Os that carries duty to the end...I hope he gives me a page at 239th AFTER a deoderising application of 'Tough Guy.' I'd hate to introduce him to my crew and have to hear later, 'This guy is your friend??? He stinks like garbage.' ALL TA work is excellent work. CI Peter
I can't see anyone at 239 busting LuchAAA over da "smell of victory" ... not with all the damned dumpsters YOU guys have been filling up lately. Moo. :)
I saw that train too. I asked one of the T/O's why the "Refuse Train" is out during the rush hour. He told me it's part of a "pilot program". Something about too little work being done on the midnights, so now they're trying it between AM and PM rush. Unfortunately, it overlapped with the PM rush when I saw it on Monday.
They are trying it on the 2,5 and 4 lines to try and eliminate truck pick-ups. The refuse train is to get priority from the towers according to the paperwork I saw.
That makes sense. The #4 pickup usually works B'way a couple nights a week, and they bounce around manhattan for most of the night. They're constantly waiting in the hole, so it does seem hard to get the work done
It was at GCT on Tuesday at 2:30pm on the downtown local track.
Yikes!
They are running the Garbage train during the day. One reason I heard was to save money because during the Midnight hours they run into GO's that delay the trip. During the day you have less GO'S so less Overtime.
I've seen one or more R-142As on the 4 line. What rolling stock will this line have?
According to certain posters, the assignments are still subject to change. He said two options were being considered. One is to have the option order R142s run on the 3 and have the 4 run with R62s and about 8 trains of R142As. The other option is to have the option order R142s on the 4 with the 8 R142A trains and run the R62s on the 3. In either scenario, the 3 sends its R62As to the 7. I believe this is what he said was being considered, although do not hold me or the poster of this information to this.
Why exactly wouuld they mix R142 with R142A stock at the Same yard? I smell potential disaster.
They would mix R-142 with R-142A in a single maintenance shop (and yard, but the shop is the more important consideration) in order to have only the newest equipment on the Lexington Avenue Line. The two classes are designed to be able to run together in trains, but as far as I am aware that is not being planned.
David
It would be no worse than mixing R62s with R142As in the same yard. With the R62s being vastly different from the R142s and R142A.
>>One is to have the option order R142s run on the 3 and have the 4 run with R62s and about 8 trains of R142As. The other option is to have the option order R142s on the 4 with the 8 R142A trains and run the R62s on the 3. In either scenario, the 3 sends its R62As to the 7. I believe this is what he said was being considered, although do not hold me or the poster of this information to this.<<
The scenario I read was that option R-142s would be totally assigned to the #4, sending R-62's (Kawasaki) to the #3. If you do the math, the current fleet of R-62's would be slightly more than what the #3 runs right now. The extra cars would supplement the #3 using 10 car trains. The R-62's are already set up in five car units, so there.
One problem does crop up. If this scenario does come to fruition, wouldn't West Side IRT passengers complain that the East Side has more newer equipment than their's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess you are right. The West Side would have 2 lines with older equipment whereas the East Side would have 0. In the other arrangement, it is 1 and 1.
Also, the 3 runs 10 car trains now anyway. I don't think the fact it is running its current assignment now has an effect on that.
Does someone have the number of cars a line needs to operate? The list on the FAQ is not that current and doesn't even reflect the MannyB flip.
But for a long time, the East Side IRT largely had a newer fleet than the West Side. Redbirds ran in regular service on all three East Side lines, while they ran only on the 2 on the West Side. So West Side riders really shouldn't complain. Plus, they have an extra line under Central Park West (well those east of Broadway do).
I'm sorry, that should read:
But for a long time, the East Side IRT largely had a older fleet than the West Side. Redbirds ran in regular service on all three East Side lines, while they ran only on the 2 on the West Side. So West Side riders really shouldn't complain. Plus, they have an extra line under Central Park West (well those east of Broadway do). This is fair to East Side riders.
I here that R142s abot 260 cars goin over to the #3 and the # 4 only gettin 7-8 sets.
A.M.L
U KNOW
Well, that stands to reason, they only had about THAT many 'Birds.
wayne
Why didn't they send the entire R62 fleet to the 1 or 3?
The way I read it, the only cars that are being replaced are the Jerome R33, which amounted to about 80-odd cars, 9220-9305. Moving the option-order R142A, which are 100 cars, would replace the R33 and augment the Jerome fleet. As for the remaining 315 R62, they'll probably stay put. The option order R142 (high-7000, 7100 and the 10 7200) may go to the #3. If this pans out, it moves more R62A (singles and linked sets) from #3 to the #7, and sends more R36 to the sea. The only changes I see happening on the #1 might involve the ex-Pelham cars trading places with others just to keep the numbers straight.
wayne
Didn't CI Peter say that the TA will only be ordering parts from Bombardier, after this mess?
This line will have 7-8 sets of R142A
A.M.L
U KNOW
The R142As I have seen on the #4 are option order cars. I would guess these will be a 1-to-1 replacement of the R33s that were running on that line, with the Kawasaki R62 staying put, despite other theories to the contrary.
wayne
After the accident, when will the Airtrain open? Also, has the TA decided on a new service. I say send half the A's to Far Rockaway, half to Howard Beach. Send the C to Lefferts.
Airtrain will open when it opens...the September derailment delayed the opening indefinitely.
As to changing the subway service pattern, NYCT has no plans to do so.
David
AirTrain is by definition open.
LiquiTrain is closed, because there must be something to contain the liquid.
:0)
Not necessarily–The Reefbirds are LiquiTrains and they’re open!
Someone forgot Cretian trains...the ones filled with concrete blocks.
I rode on the Hudson Line for the first time last Saturday going to the open house in Croton Harmon and I thought it was a real scenic line. One question though:
Does anyone know why they put the platforms for the Scarborough Station, or the station itself for that matter, in the middle of the Hudson River???
Does anyone know why they put the platforms for the Scarborough Station, or the station itself for that matter, in the middle of the Hudson River???
Because, that is where the tracks were?
Elias : )
>>Does anyone know why they put the platforms for the Scarborough Station, or the station itself for that matter, in the middle of the Hudson River???<<
Maybe you may want to rephrase that question. Metro North trains don't run well under water. I'm surprised this was the first time you rode this line. I rode it many times over the years. Autumn is the best time, seeing the leaves on trees across the Hudson is a wonderful sight.
One story about this line. A friend of mine, who is LIRR engineer, was railfaning this line many years ago. He was in a wooded area adjacent to the ROW scouting a clearing for a good shot. She saw something shiny poking through the leaves. He picked up the object and was stunned. He found an old NY Central long neck oil can that was probably tossed aside from a passing steam loco. The oil can had some dents and NYC markings on it. I've seen it myself, it looks impressive for being discarded for many years.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't know the definitive answer, so I'll give you my speculation. I was on an Amtrak that slowed down considerably there a few years ago and had a chance to get a decent look at things. It looked like the stations original low-level platforms were on land, and that when they built the high-level ones they were build north of the station (in the water, basically). Why they couldn't have just built them one on top of the other I don't know.
It does look like it would be pretty miserable to be waiting for a late train in January at Scarborough.
CG
Jeff: Although its surrounded by water on three sides the Scarborough Station isn't quite in the middle of the Hudson. As built the original station was at the south end on dry land but as trains became longer the platforms were extended northward. As there is a small inlet here it gives the impression of being surroounded by water.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Hudson is a tidal estuary, so it has tended to develop swampy areas and inlets on its edges.
The builders of the line obviously built right next to the water to save money - cheaper than buying land inland, and also less hilly.
When you build right next to an estuary you are going to have to build some causeways where you go right across inlets, instead of detouring sharply inland to stay at the edge of the original natural water line.
Are the doorways of the R142/R142A staggered like the redbirds/R32/R38/R40 etc, or straight across from each other like the R44/46/62 etc?
I think the staggered plan is a good idea, it forces people to move into the train instead of just hanging around between the doorways.
In the cars with cabs, the doors are opposite each other. In the cars without cabs, they're staggered.
Correct...I did 'B' car today. CI Peter
Carbodsky four days R142 #5 running back and forth trying to eradicate scratchitti on stainless steel door pilasters. Doors on Bombardier R142 trainsets are staggered....static tests have you zig-zag the rising linoleum floor. Window mylars scratched, doors scratched, panels scratched, seating scratched, bi parting doors not meeting up, fluorescent lamp sockets not making contact, HVAC not working properly...............what a piece of junk. At lunchtime, I throw the low voltage circuit breakers off and take a break. Redbirds are better trainsets. CI Peter
CI Peter, Why is it that you see so much scratchitti on the R142's that run on the 2 and 5, and the worst that I've seen on the 6 was one narrow strip of metal that covers the corner of the interior doorway with something that looked like someone dragged their key up the metal panel creating a abstract wavy line?
I seen a rash of Scratchitti on the R143's over the last week or so. The People(I can't just say kids) are getting the seats, wall, windows and anything eles they can do it to. As I siad before they should though anyone cought doing this in jail with some big guy (or girl) and see how they like getting scratch, if you now what I mean.
Robert
Why do these morons scratch things? And on top of that it's Indecipherable most of the time.
These are BRONX trainsets (#2 and #5) and while someone might say the scratchitti comes from Brooklyn, I'll bet a dollar to a jelly donut that it is of Bronx origin. The constant repainting of Redbird carbodies coupled with the special interior paint put an end to spray can and marker vandalism (along with vigilance and law enforcement.) What started with a key, a coin and then a steel tool has led to a carbide scoring tool that deeply engraves the stainless steel door pilasters of New Tech. Anything can damage a mylar window laminate, the Formica wall panels need nothing but a sharp edge and pressure...it takes concerted effort to deeply etch stainless steel.
We see the same tags everyday...car I worked on today was grafitti free. Just raise the fare to five bucks a ride and eliminate school passes...only the European visitors would be leaving their 'tags' behind. CI Peter
I guess that the 2 and 5 run through the rougher parts of town....
Any speculation as to why the MTA had the contracts in this design? I mean with the A cars, it's understandable, but I suppose it was a mistake to do so on the R62s/R44/46/68/etc...
I would like to ask you experienced subway knowledge folks if it is legal to take pictures of people under the subway?
Also, if you are focusing on one person like a musician under the subway & you have their permission- & they are being paid as well - is that legal?
I have taken some beautiful pictures - then one day someone told me they had heard it was illegal. Are they right? I would like to exhibit these photos - but not if it's illegal.
please help,
-inspired artist in love with the subway
I would like to ask you experienced subway knowledge folks if it is legal to take pictures of people under the subway?
The rules for photographing people in the subway are no different than the rules for photographing people in any other public place... I'm not sure of the exact wording, but the guidelines for having a signed release focus on how "identifiable" the subject is in the photograph, and also whether or not the photos are used for commercial (as opposed to artistic) purposes.
Also, if you are focusing on one person like a musician under the subway & you have their permission - & they are being paid as well - is that legal?
If you are paying them then it clearly becomes a commercial endeavor, and you would require not only a model's release from the subject but a photo permit from the MTA. I've never had to get a permit (I'm only a casual photographer anyway) so I don't know what's involved.
For non-commercial photography, the basic rules are: no ancillary equipment (including flash), no photographing the token booths, and no photographing of MTA employees.
Hope that helps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I would like to ask you experienced subway knowledge folks if it is legal to take pictures of people under the subway?"
It is legal to take photos in 'public areas' of the NYCT as long as no suplimental lighting is used.
"Also, if you are focusing on one person like a musician under the subway & you have their permission- & they are being paid as well - is that legal?"
Musicians are not prohibited from performing in stations as long as they do not impede passenger flow or safety and as long as they do not use amplification equipment.
BTW: There is a pamphlet referring to the rules of conduct on NYCT property. These subjects as well as others are covered. I will try to get a copy for Dave to post in the FAQ section if he sees fit.
Train Dude, I think it's the same pamphlet that Terry Kennedy already has scanned on his site.
--Mark
I intend to ride the Pascack Valley Line on the train which departs Hobo Ken at 4:36 PM and arrives at Spring Valley at 5:43. The trip will then involve the TZX bus (which leaves SV at 6:02) to White Plains, then MN to Grand Central.
This is the last week of daylight savings so next week the trains will travel part of the route in darkness and I have plans for Friday. If not Thursday then not until April.
COST: $11.75 includes NJT, TZX and MN fare, does not include PATH fare
In case anybody wants to be a wise guy, I'm not asking you to give me the money, I'm just telling you how much you'll need.
My e-mail for this trip is springvalleyorbust@boarshevik.com or AIM: BOARshevik
This trip was inspired by Qtraindash7's trip to the Palisades Mall on the TZX bus.
It's a good trip, I recommend it. By the way, penultimate? Couldnt you just say 2nd to last? lol
3 plead guilty for trolley, bridge graffiti
Tuesday, October 22, 2002
By Jim McKinnon, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
Three graffiti painters pleaded guilty today to reduced charges in connection with several incidents, including painting Port Authority vehicles, two bridges and Pittsburgh's anti-graffiti truck.
Entering the pleas today before Common Pleas Judge Robert E. Colville were Michael Monack, 19, who used the name "Mook"; Jason "Seose" Kress, 22; and Thomas "Jein" Clayton, 21. All are from the South Side.
A year ago, between September and December, the three were charged with vandalizing some 35 light rail vehicles, causing $62,000 in damage. They also were accused of painting the Liberty Bridge and 10the Street Bridge. And Mook was charged with defacing a city vehicle used for graffiti removal as it was parked on the South Side.
The three pleaded to criminal mischief and trespassing charges, none of which will require jail time. They also agreed to pay resititution in small installments.
Marketing
Written On The Subway Walls
Ian Federgreen, 08.15.02, 8:00 AM ET
Does it take a rocket scientist to turn ordinary subway tunnels into prime advertising space?
Well, yes. While Joshua Spodek was getting his Ph.D. in astrophysics from Columbia University, he was also developing an innovative advertising technique.
Sub Media, cofounded by Spodek and Matthew Gross in 1999, produces 15- to 20-second animated ads that appear on subway tunnel walls. This is accomplished through a series of backlit pictures which Spodek compares to "the frames in a film reel." The pictures, printed by the U.K.'s Photobition Group on Kodak (nyse: EK - news - people ) transparencies, spring to life as the train speeds by, creating a fluid film and giving passengers the effect of being inside a giant flip book.
After being introduced in Atlanta in Sept. 2001, the first motion-picture ad debuted in New York City on June 18 in the uptown PATH train tunnel between 14th St. and 23rd St. The PATH trains, which connect Manhattan to New Jersey and are operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, serve an estimated 241,000 riders per day. The Sub Media location is visible to an estimated 40,000 people a day.
The initial New York ad, for Minneapolis-based Target (nyse: TGT - news - people ), featured various uses of Target's red and white bull's-eye logo, including a woman skateboarding around the chain's emblem. "Part of the Target brand is to constantly be looking for new ways to connect with our guests," said Target spokesman Douglas Kline. "An animated advertisement in a popular subway tunnel fit this bill perfectly."
"Target has a history of advertising with beautiful, bold, creative ads--so it was a natural choice for them," said Spodek.
It's certainly an expensive way to be bold. Although the PATH has a desirable demographic--70% are professionals and 77% are between the ages of 25 and 54--the Sub Media ads cost around $100,000 per month to run in New York, significantly more than traditional PATH advertising. A conventional subway ad--a 28" by 11" placard placed in every car--costs about $40,000 per month. And a similar demographic could be reached online for 59% less.
But, at least until the novelty wears off, some companies are willing to pay the price. "[The ads are] creating an awareness and a buzz and an interest with our guests that is valuable to us," Kline said. "There have been many comments about the ads from many sectors, including people in the stores, news media interest, [and] talk value in Manhattan itself."
After a six-week run ending July 28, the Target ad gave way to a spot for The Discovery Channel's celebrity shark week. "What we're doing this year is very creative and unique, so we wanted to pursue a creative and unique medium," said Traci Spiegel, marketing manager for shark week. Spiegel is hoping that the PATH spot will have a "large effect" on ratings.
Less clear is the impact on the PATH's traditionally shaky finances. In 2001, the PATH lost $151 million despite raisings its fares 50%, to $1.50, on March 25 of that year. Spokesman Steve Coleman was hesitant to say how the ads could offset taxpayer support of the PATH, calling them "just another part of the whole revenue picture" in their current test phase. The films will continue to run in the PATH for one year, after which time the ads may expand or be cut entirely.
But bored commuters seem to like the films. Burke Inc., a Cincinnati-based marketing research firm, found that out of 600 people surveyed, more than 90% liked the Sub Media ad for Coca-Cola's (nyse: KO - news - people ) Dasani bottled water which ran in Atlanta's transit system--and four out of five people liked it a lot. About 90% said they looked forward to future motion-picture advertisements. "It is a really good way for us to augment our more traditional advertising with something that's not only entertaining, but also has a buzz value," said a spokesman for Coca-Cola.
"Every major city in the world has a subway system, every subway system needs more revenue and every subway rider has a boring commute," Spodek says. "The potential is to go all around the world."
More subway milage for LA?
Link below with map.
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/printable.asp?id=21255&date=10/22/2002
Gotta love Microsoft ... copying/pasting the link at 1pm today (10/23) gives you this cryptic stuff ....
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'
[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][TCP/IP Sockets]General network error. Check your network documentation.
//global.asa, line 21
--Mark
>>> Gotta love Microsoft ... copying/pasting the link at 1pm today (10/23) gives you this cryptic stuff <<<
I got it at 3:15 P.M. today without a problem. But it is old news. That was part of the original subway plan that was nixed by the voters. There is no general groundswell of public support to extend the subway.
Tom
The extension to Fairfax makes a lot of sense. There'sd enough density to support it, and it would help the retail centers there a great deal.
But first they have to reverse some lawmaking.
One thing MTA needs to do, if they push for this extension, is to make an effort to improve and add new services in more poverty stricken areas, and do so in visible, tangible ways to avoid a repetition of what happened in the past.
"One thing MTA needs to do...is to make an effort to improve and add new services in more poverty stricken areas, and do so in visible, tangible ways to avoid a repetition of what happened in the past."
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you mention "repetition of what happened in the past." I'm all for improving transit service in areas that need it most. But, I'll point out that the Wilshire corridor is still the heaviest transit corridor west of Chicago, and while it passes through affluent areas, it mainly benefits working class people, most of whom are minorities. Ride an eastbound Rapid bus (Route 720) on Wilshire late in the evening. It is packed to the rafters with workers headed home to South Central and East Los Angeles. Bus service could easily be doubled, and there would still be standing loads. This is the corridor most in need of a subway extension.
One error in the UCLA article: It is rail service, not bus service, that was extended up to one hour starting this past Sunday. It is a welcome improvement.
What I am referring to were lawsuits which attacked RTD (the old MTA) for planning to spend billions to build rail through relatively affluent areas (and yes, the Wilshire Corridor is affluent compared to other areas in the city, even if much of its ridership is not) while allowing bus service in predominantly black areas, like Watts, to deteriorate.
Old Tom's posts (see the archives) contain an excellent description of what happened.
>>> What I am referring to were lawsuits which attacked RTD (the old MTA) for planning to spend billions to build rail through relatively affluent areas (and yes, the Wilshire Corridor is affluent compared to other areas in the city, even if much of its ridership is not) while allowing bus service in predominantly black areas, like Watts, to deteriorate. <<<
It was not really the Red Line that was the big bone of contention as much as it was funding the Metrolink, bringing in the affluent from far away at subsidized fares, while letting bus service for the local transit dependent citizens deteriorate AND trying to raise the bus fare. The construction of the subway, with its poor safety record and large cost overruns was a secondary target more because of the high cost rather than its route. If anything, the decision to not build the planned line from downtown to the East side was a slap at the Hispanic minority who have a large concentration on the East side, but regularly shop downtown and take transit (buses) to get there.
An extension of the Red Line to Fairfax along Wilshire would probably be a disappointment in terms of the number of riders. Although there are tall office buildings along Wilshire Boulevard in that area, most of the workers in those buildings travel to their jobs from the residential areas South and North of Wilshire (which runs East/West). Tourists would use it to get to the LA County Museum, but to be really effective, the subway has to reach Century City and Westwood to tie those centers to the downtown area. Once that happens L.A. will become a real city and not just a bunch of suburbs looking for a city.
Tom
the rapid bus ...................sucks !!
..............!
also the red line should have been built to the same specks of the
blue green & gold ...
Don't forget UCLA, a massive destination with lots of bus services already (so making it a natural terminus for the Red Line with the necessary bus transfers already in place). Parking around UCLA is so short that many students who would like to use cars can't.
UCLA would be a great place to establish a terminal. The Red Line wuld branch, much like Routes 20-21-320-321, one train continuing to the beach while one goes to the UCLA campus.
I was assuming that the line to the beach would be a bit optimistic at this time. Go to UCLA next; then carry on to the beach sometime in the future if funding becomes available.
Makes sense. The tunnel would have to make a sharp turn under Westwood Blvd.
2 possibilities:
1. That intersection itself would probably have a station only for the Santa Monica-bound line; the other line would discharge and pickup further north on Westwood.
2. The station itself would be a little east of the Wilshire-Westwood intersection, with a mezzanine leading to entrances near Westwood. The westbound train would begin the turn immediately after leaving the station.
>>> 2 possibilities: <<<
3rd possibility: If you guys want to dream so far into the future, the line terminating at UCLA could cross the Wilshire line and travel south to the beach cites, with a stop at LAX, on over to San Pedro. It should also extend north under the hills to the West Valley going as far as Simi Valley. It would roughly parallel Sepulveda Boulevard or the 405 Freeway. Realistically look for it around 2075 (right after the 2nd Avenue Subway grand opening).
Tom
Another plan was to run a light rail down the old Van Nuys Branch of the SP, from No Hollywood, across Chandler Blvd, thru Van Nuys/Sherman Oaks, along the RTW by Victory, up Canoga to meet with Amtack/Metrolink in Chatsworth. Basically the route of the old Van Nuys and Canoga Pk PE lines and the right away is already there. But upeer middle class Nimbys again got in the way, so now you got a express bus along Ventura Blvd out west
But that Gold Line is coming along well. It ends at Rosemead Blvd, about five miles from where I live. Easy for me to drive and park and take the light rail to Los Angeles anytime I want. It's going to have a couple of tunnels, too, from what I've heard.
i got a lot of construction photos of that line ...
I know it uses the old Santa Fe Right of way thru Pasadena etc, Pretty ride, when is due to open
yes i got it before the new tracks were laid ...
the santa fe bridge was very nice to walk over the pasadena fwy.
According to MTA's Metro News for October, the Pasadena Gold Line will open Summer 2003.
That would be nice, but the NIMBYS in Westwood would scream, and they do have money, the line should branch off in BH and go down Santa Monica Blvd, rather then Wilshire along the old PE Right of way, it would serve Century City, W LA Etc/ a bus transfer at Westwood Blvd up to UCLA
That might work. Maybe the Red Line could meet up in Santa Monica with the Exposition Blue Line, if/when the latter line is extended out there.
That was the original plan when the old RTD came out with a plan in the 70s
Works in Netscape 4.78, must be an IE thing.
>>> The three pleaded to criminal mischief and trespassing charges, none of which will require jail time. They also agreed to pay resititution in small installments. <<<
Talk about a slap on the wrist. No jail time, and small installments. That's not going to deter anyone.
Tom
This happened this past Saturday, October 19, when Hartline, operated of the Tampa, Florida transit system, opened its 2.3 mile route for revenue operation. The system has eight double-truck Birney cars, built by Gomaco of Cedar Grove, Iowa, and one restored single truck Birney from the original system, which closed in 1946.
I attended the opening cermonies and remained for a few days to study, document and photograph study the system (in my opinion, an excellent propotype for a downtown Manhattan surface distributor loop), and will give a compete description shortly.
A similar system is to open in Little Rock, Arkansas in about 18 months.
Does it provide a service, or is it primarily tourist--a rail version of those tram bus things?
Paul
I posted a few Tampa items yesterday.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=399435
Thanks, Phil, Really interesting stuff. It look like the line could have potential.
Question--they are calling them "Birneys". The ends look like Birneys but my recollection is that Birneys (Birney Safety Cars) were inherently small single truck cars that could be operated OPTO, as opposed to the typical trolley of the time which was a two-man crew.
The pictures look too big to be a Birney. Is my memory wrong or are they using "Birney" liberally?
There were both single truck Birney's, but there were double truck Birney's built. I believe both Tampa and San Diego had the double truck variety.
Since more single truck Birney's were built, that's why the double truck variety is left out.
Dan's remarks is what I have found. Both types are made by JG Brill. I was give the knowledge that the Birney was a single truck car (Birney Safety Car). But Gomaco is using the term Birney to define a Brill design, regardless to single truck or double truck. For now Gomaco has only double truck Birney, unless they find a single truck car to rebuilt.
The Third Ave. Rwy also had a fairly large number of previously owned double truck Birneys in service, mostly in the Bronx and upper Manhattan. Not all cars bought were used, however. Some were delivered, then left to get vandalized in the yard, then finally cutup in the mid-30's.
The route provides a definite service. In the city itself, they have the hotels, Convention Center, office buildings, Aquarium, Ice Palace and a few other things. However, downtown Tampa is generally dead after dark. The night action is in Ybor City, a restored historic district with narrow streets about 2 miles to the northeast. It gets extremely crowded there most nights and especially on weekends. Parking is very expensive and difficult to find. Building the streetcar was a logical idea to take the people from the downtown hotel area to one offering nightlife. I spent from last Thursday to Monday of this week there, photographing just about every inch of the line - 21 36-exposure rolls to be exact. The most impressive thing about the new Birney cars was their interior woodwork and etched glass. But to think that in 2002 you have a completely new (except for the Milan trucks and controllers) Birney streetcar, with all the right sounds, well, it's unbelievable. What goes around comes around! Close your eyes and go back 50 yrears or more......
This Sunday at Liberty State Park; that is-- the CNJ terminal. Is anybody going to be there?
CNJ Heritage Festival
HELLO ALL:
At the recent trolley meet near Philadelphia, I bought a relatively obscure publication called "The Modelmaker", dated January 1934. In it is a well-reproduced (and embellished) article based on a "Scientific American" article dated February 17th, 1894, describing the Boynton Bicycle railway and its design. The graphics are superb, as the article was written for modelmakers who might want to recreate the railway in miniature.
The Boynton Bicycle RR was an experimental monorail-type installation that threatened competition with Austin Corbin's Long Island RR in the late 1800s. I believe there were two installations, a steam-powered shuttle near Coney Island and an electrically-powered test track near Patchogue. Corbin seems to have taken the threat fairly seriously since a backer of the scheme, Frederick Dunton, was an estranged relative (I think a son-in-law or nephew) with a bit of a grudge.
Vincent Seyfried and Ron Ziel wrote about it in their LIRR histories, so some info is available, but this Modelmaker article was new to me.
The cost of photocopying and postage is minimal so if anyone has a serious interest in the subject, email me privately with your postal address and Ill send you a copy gratis. Its worth sharing.
Id love to hear from anyone with any more info on either the Boynton Bicycle RR, or the City Island Monorail, two transportation curiosities in the NYC area.
The route of the City Island Monorail can be fairly easily traced, does anyone know the precise location of the Patchogue test track for the Boynton installation? Are there any traces, however obscure?
CONRAD MISEK
Boynton Bicycle went essentially from nowhere to nowhere, forming an arc from Bath Beach to Coney Island. I'm not sure it even made it to the beach.
I believe the Kings County version was more like what we would now call a demonstraton project to show what it could do and scare the competition.
>>> Id love to hear from anyone with any more info on either the Boynton Bicycle RR <<<
Check the archives. This was discussed with illustrations within the past year on Sub Talk.
Tom
Why has no one posted about the sniper who killed a commuter bus driver in DC? Or is this a taboo topic?
I actually wanted to get on here and say that this is the first time that the transit profession has been affected by the sniper, and I have mixed feelings -- so far, I have not followed the sniper case in great detail, writing it off as one of this Washington Area crazy things that happen. Shooting of a bus driver changed all that. Suddenly, it all became very real. My heart goes out to those who has been affected by this.
Having said all that, I can think of all sort of probabilistic analyses that could be done to show that the risk of dying by the sniper is still lower than the risk of other hazards in the DC metro area... Interestingly, he has so far killed 10 people -- and only asked for $10 million. Is human life really worth that little these days? Given the way safety research has been carried out in certain industries, it does not surprise me.
I'm pissed off that he'd killed a bus driver. Killing is wrong, but killing one of our comrades is punishable by death. I want this guy's head.
AEM7
"Why has no one posted about the sniper who killed a commuter bus driver in DC? Or is this a taboo topic?"
Check with BusTalk about the bus driver.
True, however as tranportation fans our hearts DO GO OUT to Conrad Johnson's family. May God comfort them in their time of need
CONRAD JOHNSON R.I.P.
I second that, man!! A loss in the transportation field!! :-(
Why has no one posted about the sniper who killed a commuter bus driver in DC? Or is this a taboo topic?
Maybe because this is SubTalk, not BusTalk. The entire sniper situation worries me a great deal, since my younger daughter lives in Silver Spring, but there's nothing any of us can do from where we sit but hope and pray that the police will catch the murderer before he strikes again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>I want this guy's head. <<
I can think of other things to cut off before his head...
Don't be fooled by the sniper's "ransom". He's just saying that to throw law enforcement off its tracks. I posted a post on BusTalk about the sniper killing Conrad Johnson, a father of two, just doing his job driving buses and BOOM this monster just kills him. He doesn't care about anybody, child or adult. Its always the good citizens whose lives are cut short :-(.
Don't be fooled by the sniper's "ransom". He's just saying that to throw law enforcement off its tracks. I posted a post on BusTalk about the sniper killing Conrad Johnson, a father of two, just doing his job driving buses and BOOM this monster just kills him. He doesn't care about anybody, child or adult. Its always the good citizens whose lives are cut short :-(.
I want this sniper to be caught and left to rot inside of a jail cell where he belongs. While he is in the jail cell, he should be used as target practice.
#3 West End Jeff
The sniper case will be very convoluted. There are 3 jursidictions involved, plus the Feds, and everybody will want their piece. Maryland and Virginia have the death penalty (Maryland's governor has suspended the DP pending an investigation about possible racial inequality, but the trial could have the DP attached anyway) and so do the Feds but DC does not.
Since the probable suspects were apprehended in Maryland, the first trial will be here, followed by VA and DC. However, the Federal charges (interstate murder) may take precedence.
It will be very interesting, and we will be learning much more in the days and weeks to come.
They found a .223 rifle in a suspect's car. Go to http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/24/sniper.shootings/index.html
to read more about it.
#3 West End Jeff
New reports identified the firearm as a 'Bushmaster.' Bushmaster did infact manufacture at least three different self-loading fireams starting from the USAF designed 'arm gun' in 0.223 Remington. There is a lot of 'incriminating evidence' including the fact that Sergeant Mohammed was trained at Fort Lewis...the 'Go Devils'...a facility specializing in mountain ops and evasion. Let us just leave this matter alone until conclusive ballistics prove it all out one way or another. He, after all, is too protected by the 'Bill of Rights.'
Then we bring out De BEEG BUG hootchy cootchy dance. CI Peter
The Bushmaster XM15 was ballistically matched with the bullets from the sniper victims as well as bullets recovered from a tree stump in Washington state at the suspects' residence
Good to see you back. I once had a Colt Factory CAR-15 SP4 so now I know these 'snipers' were not long distance shooters. MS Carlos Hackathorn...101 confirmed with a Remington .308 using 168s HPBTNM by himself...NO spotter. Personally, I'm a Garand Man. High grade carbon steel machined into shape without investment castings just like the Redbirds. Jersey residence has a Ruger Mini Bicentennial in 0.223...sad to think this calibre may go the way of Charter Arms 0.44.
What we may be left is 0.22 'Cadette Flintlocks.' VOTE your best choice November 5th. God Bless as always.
October 30th......TWU 100 Demonstration 1600 hrs...44th and Madison
November 3rd......Project Day for BERA at Branford
November 5th......NY State Election Day
December 15th.....End of contract between MTA and TWU 100
'The doorway to all freedoms...is framed with muskets.'
'Ole Roger...TWU 1000 has the highball'
>>> the Federal charges (interstate murder) may take precedence <<<
Interstate murder??? That sounds like they were shooting across state lines. There may be federal charges for what happened in DC, but I don't think interstate murder is one of them.
Tom
Interstate murder is a Federal charge that can be levied when there are murder cases by the same subject in ajoining states.
>>> Interstate murder is a Federal charge that can be levied when there are murder cases by the same subject in ajoining states. <<<
I checked the U.S. Code (18 U.S.C. §§ 1111-1122 define the Federal homicide crimes) and found nothing of the sort there, nor could I imagine the jurisdictional basis for such a law. The closest I found is U.S.C. 18 §1073 which is interstate flight to avoid prosecution. I am always willing to learn if you can supply the code section.
Tom
Hi. Does anyone have any details on this morning's disruption on the M and W lines (maybe others affected, too)? The media had no info on this.
Said something about Mary being out between Chambers and Bay Pkwy, and the Weak & Weary was running via Montague Tube, I bet that made the riders happy.
wayne
Since November 13, 1984, I've worked at Vernon Boulevard & 44th Drive in Long Island City. My commute entailed getting to the Main Street terminus of the 7 (by bus from College Point prior to May '89; by foot or bus from north Flushing since); then riding the express five stops to 45th Road/Court House Square; then walking five blocks to the office. In recent years, working an 8-to-4 shift, I can make it door-to-door in 45 minutes barring delays.
Well, that's changed. Starting Wednesday, October 30, my agency is moving to the main Board of Education business headquarters at Court and Livingston Streets in downtown Brooklyn. This will effective double my commute time and require changing trains- and not across the platform, either. My feelings are mixed: on the pro side, it'll mean a lot more subway riding and daily exposure to different equipment. On the con side, I'll have to get up slightly earlier and may get home considerably later. The outbound 7 is much more crowded after 4:30 than it is at 4:10.
I'm split over which is the best of two ways to get there. Last week while on vacation, I took two mornings to test them both. I can change at Court House for the G to Hoyt/Schermerhorn, which will keep me out of Manhattan. But then I'll have to keep using a weekly unlimited Metrocard in order to ensure I can use the bus to the subway and not get docked an extra fare. It's only a few steps from the new exit from the 7 to the new entrance to the G. But the two Metrocard turnstiles cause horrible backups, especially when people don't have the proper balance on their cards. Loads of Brooklyn Tech kids from Queens ride the G in the morning, which partially accounts for the train being packed all the way downtown, despite large turnover at Metropolitan. 'Smart' kids aren't necessarily any quieter or better behaved on trains than 'normal' kids from zoned or vocational schools, either. Finally, it's a fairly long hike- about three long blocks- from Hoyt/Scherm to the office, which includes crossing a very wide, dangerous street full of impatient motorists. I don't know how crowded the Queens-bound G would be at 4:00.
The other viable alternative is to stay on the 7 to Grand Central for the downtown 4 or 5 to Borough Hall. The transfer can be cumbersome- either up two long escalators and down a stairway, or up a steep, winding ramp. Downtown Lex expresses aren't oppressively crowded around 7:15, and most people are getting off below Brooklyn Bridge, which takes much less time than people getting on. The Borough Hall entrance is on Joralemon, right around the corner from the office. Going home, it's easy to get a seat (or railfan window for the Joralemon dash on what Redbirds remain) on a Bronx-bound train, but they become extremely congested at Bowling Green, resulting in long boarding delays the rest of the way to Grand Central. Uptown expresses tend to slow down badly all the way from Union Square to GC due to congestion, while several locals whiz by. Fortunately, 7-train conductors are much more likely to announce whether it's local or express at Grand Central than they are at Court House- hence reducing the guesswork or having to switch at Queensboro.
There's always the possibility of changing at 5th Avenue for the downtown F to Jay Street, which would avoid the Financial District. But that would require walking through the long connecting passageway, which is now under renovation. As an EXTREME last resort, there's the downtown 2 and 3 at Times Square, from which there is at least full express service again. That way can be very bothersome below Chambers, but going home that way would pretty much ensure me a seat on the 7.
Should I hear on the radio of a problem with the 7, I could drive to Jamaica (there are places to park in the residential areas north of Hillside if you know the regs), walk down to Archer and get the J/Z to ENY for the A. It would offer both scenery and a nice Fulton express, but I'd need a LOT of time. During my tenure in LIC, I've driven many times to stops along the IND line from 67th Avenue through Parsons/Hillside (depending on the day and regs) in case of disruption on the 7. Of course, that was much easier when the F went to 23/Ely and the G ran deeper into Queens during the week!
Despite the increased commuting time inherent in this move, there are some advantages: a Barnes & Noble a block away; many more eateries than in LIC (The area in which I've worked for 18 years has remained heavily blue-collar/industrial, but gentrification has conspicuously worked its way in via numerous coffee bars and 'gourmet' take-outs featuring soups and wraps.); TA's travel center a few blocks away; the renovated Transit Museum store opening next year; not having to dodge trucks backing into the ground-level shipping docks of my current building anymore; working right near BMT Man.
Liabilities include much tighter standards in dress, decorum, timekeeping and Internet usage (gulp!!) than where I am now; working on the 17th floor, which is a lot harder to walk down from than the 6th- something I've done for years to avoid crowded elevators; the ability to spend more money at the aforementioned Barnes & Noble, eateries and renovated Transit Museum store; the prospect of driving to work obliterated by the total absence of any free street parking in downtown Brooklyn. You COULD get a space on Vernon Boulevard if you got there before 7:00- 7:30 in the summer.
Four and a half more days in the place I've been going to daily for by far the longest period of my life. Then, things are gonna get interesting.
Hmmmm, quite a dilemma. I'd probably go with the 7 to the 4/5 at Grand Central. The G sounds like too much of a hassle.
Well congratulations! As far as the best way, the 7 to the 4/5 is the fastest way. I wouldn't take the G, since you are more likely to be waiting longer for it.
Also what about taking the 7 to the N train at QBP for an across the platform trasnfer. Yes, the N is local and runs through the rat infested slow Montague tunnel, but the transfer is probably the easiest. The N,R,M stop at Court street aint that far from the office, is it?
runs through the rat infested slow Montague tunnel
Speaking of the Montague tunnel, a few years back, I had to travel from the M line in Queens to Downtown Brooklyn for two years every day. After taking the M train directly to Lawrence Street for a week or two, I gave up my one seat ride on the M to transfer at Essex-Delancy to the F to Jay Street-Boro Hall, just to avoid the Montague tunnel! I hated it! It is so slow. Even though the M was direct, and a one seat ride, the M/F combo actually turned out to be faster on average. Now if only the Myrtle El was still open at that time......I always thought it was ridiculous to have to go to Manhattan from Queens just to go back to Brooklyn again, when once the Myrtle el carried the exact route that was needed. (and I did try the free transfer to the B54 bus at Myrtle-Broadwaya few times, but that was also torture).
So basically when there are multiple routes from point A to point B, it's best to try each one and see which seems the best and most comfortable.
Congratulations?
I wouldn't want to congratulate someone who is having their daily commute doubled. Maybe that would get your bell rung John, but I'm sure it's not too appetizing for Mr. Fein.
Well I thought he was moving to a better position, my apologies to Mr.Fein.
Quite all right, John. No, it's not necessarily a better position. As far as I know, my duties will remain the same. It's certainly not a better salary. All 200 or so employees in my agency are being moved lock-stock-and-barrel. Management's party line is summarized as: "Longer commute? Tough. Get over it, quit or retire." At age 43 with a family to support, the latter two options are out of the question for me.
What also hurts aside from the loss of a short commute (at least from a selfish standpoint) is that we enjoyed a relatively laid-back work environment at our obscure LIC outpost: do your job, don't kill anyone, and you'll be OK. They run a very tight ship at the Department of Ed's business headquarters in downtown Brooklyn as far as dress codes, professionalism, timekeeping and rules n' regs as a whole. In other words, I've been very spoiled for 18 years.
Heck, if it meant more money, the prospect of a longer commute wouldn't be a problem at all. But I try to remind myself of two things: (a) Surviving employees at the WTC were also forced to move, but without the benefit of advance notice, or being able to pack up their stuff first; (b) in the spirit of this board, I view this as an opportunity to do more subway riding daily.
in the spirit of this board, I view this as an opportunity to do more subway riding daily.
Well, hopefully you will still like the subway after the "more subway riding daily"......
Jut eyeballing the map and knowing GCT and how long the 4/5 takes, my guess is that you'll find the G takes considerably less time.
Hopefully you will be allowed enough flextime that you can avoid the rowdies.
Adams St./Boerum Place is awful, but if you have enough patience eventually there is a (brief) time when you are allowed to cross in peace.
You forgot perhaps the most important one (c) You still have a job.
8-)
Peace,
ANDE
Try it different ways a few times and see how it works out. You'll find out what you're most comfortable doing.
Since you have numerous commute options,why not use a different one for each day of the week? You can also take the #7 to QBP and hop on an "N" which can take you to Court or Lawrence.
wayne
You took the commute right out of my mouth, Wayne... that's exactly what I would do.
I try to do that here in Boston, though the options are fewer.
He has to draw a conclusion, make a determination,
establish a resolution,make that ultimate decision
am I going to be a RAILFAN or COMMUTER. >GOSH<
Also, I see some things haven't change in four decades
on the "GG", techies are techies, vociferous as they have been.
Also the "new" transfer entrance is a reincarnation of an entrance
that was removed in the sixties. So it's a new old entrance.
;| ) Sparky
When I worked in NYC (both as a messenger and data entry operator) between 1972 and 1974, I took two approaches to the trip - the commute (bus to 179th, then "F" into town), and the occasional subway ride, which often sent me out the "A" to the "QJ" or "L" to "QJ" or some such variant. I didn't do this every day, but I did do it every so often, just to vary things. I worked in Brooklyn from 1982 to 1984 and took the car for the most part, but every so often I'd go via the Q36 bus to Jamaica, which resulted in the "F" to the "GG" to the "L".
A nice way to avoid sitting in the quagmire of the BQE.
wayne
So that means you took the commute option on 9/11/73 as well as the time you rode on 1233.:)
Qtraindash7 has the best idea. Take the 7 to QP, then my N to Court Street, then transfer to the IRT. I think it would be faster in the long run. Sorry for the long commute; they are a royal pain in the ass.
How would you know about a commute, you lived and worked in the same area within 3 miles forever.
>>on the pro side, it'll mean a lot more subway riding and daily exposure to different equipment. <<
Only on a railfan board....
You never hear somebody say, "on the pro side I'll get to see all kinds of cars and trucks, count the potholes, and catalog all the various types of car horns and hand gestures, while I'm stuck in bumper to bumper traffic on the cross bronx!"
Well, since you said you can easily park in Jamaica, what about taking the LIRR from Jamaica to Flatbush? I know it is more expensive but if you can afford the extra expense it is more than worth it. Three stops on trains that go much faster and are more comfortable than the subway, on board bathrooms, and a nice walkable distance from Flatbush & Atlantic to your job. And you can usually get a seat on the Brooklyn Line.
If he doesn't want to walk from Hoyt-Schermerhorn, what makes you think he wants to pay even more so he can walk twice that distance at one end and drive at the other?
Nice idea, BUT-
There's the little issue of $. A monthly for unlimited passage between Jamaica and Brooklyn or Penn is $117. A month's worth of weekly unlimited Metrocards would amount to $68- which of course includes weekend usage. I'm much more likely to use buses and subways over the weekend than the LIRR within the city zone.
Anywhere I could park north of Hillside would still require a five-block walk along Sutphin to get to the LIRR. The Brooklyn terminal is about ten blocks from my new work location. I'm not adverse to walking- in warm weather, I'll walk the mile from my house to the subway- but not on top of that extra cost. We've got a few people who currently use the LIRR to Hunters Point, which is within walking distance of where we are now. They said they'll pay extra to use the subway rather than walk from Flatbush.
Besides, they may be making us move, but they're not giving us raises to cover any inconvenience incurred by this move. The Board is a quasi-state government agency. At least it was until the Mayor took it over. Now we'll be lucky not to lose some benefits, vacation allowance, paid holidays, salary, or any combination thereof.
If I'm going to have to put up with a longer commute, I'd rather do it without added expense. Several of my co-workers have always driven because street parking is available here in LIC; they need to get home early for child care obligations; and they come from places from where it would be extremely difficult to commute from via public transit: Bay Terrace, Little Neck, North Valley Stream.
Now they're faced with no-win choices. They can drive on the BQE and have to pay mucho dinero for parking. Or they can take the LIRR and subway, which is a double whammy to the pocketbook. As for Bay Terrace and Little Neck, a bus is required to reach the Port Wash branch, which doesn't even go to Brooklyn. So a twenty-minute subway ride is still required on top of all that. If you live in unincorporated North Valley Stream, you can't park in any LIRR lots in Floral Park or Valley Stream, which are owned by those village. So you pay a fortune for private parking, or endure a long LI BUS ride to Jamaica and then a long subway ride. To add insult to injury, child care may have to be arranged- for a price, of course- where none or less was required previously because the affected people got home so much earlier.
So this move amounts to a pay cut for people in this category. Looking at it that way, I don't have it so bad. The real winners in my place are those who come from Brooklyn and Staten Island- except those who have driven all these years and now have to adjust to public transit. This has raised a fascinating philosophical debate in my workplace: How much is one willing to pay for the expenses of commuting by car so as to avoid public transportation? We've got one resident of Bensonhurst who absolutely REFUSES to take the N train from Bay Parkway to Court Street- a relatively easy trek- and doesn't care if she has to pay $200 a month to park. She has no physical impediment or need to move her car for alternate side.
More power to her!
Some people simply won't take the subway, period.
This has raised a fascinating philosophical debate in my workplace: How much is one willing to pay for the expenses of commuting by car so as to avoid public transportation? We've got one resident of Bensonhurst who absolutely REFUSES to take the N train from Bay Parkway to Court Street- a relatively easy trek- and doesn't care if she has to pay $200 a month to park. She has no physical impediment or need to move her car for alternate side.
More power to her!
Ugh, what a ridiculous attitude she has.
More power to her!
NOT! give her an OPEC lifetime acievement medal
"Besides, they may be making us move, but they're not giving us raises to cover any inconvenience incurred by this move. The Board is a quasi-state government agency. At least it was until the Mayor took it over. Now we'll be lucky not to lose some benefits, vacation allowance, paid holidays, salary, or any combination thereof. "
I'm sorry to hear that, I thought you were moving to a better position. Well I still wish you luck, I know the commute will be much harder, but at least you aren't commuting from Sea Cliff!
One way or another, your commute is going to become inconvenient. All you can do is weigh the inconveniences against the good parts. With the Lex IRT, the good thing is that you won't have to worry about screaming kids for 20 solid minutes. The bad thing is that by riding the 4/5, you're exposing yourself to a greater likelyhood of sick passengers, heavy congestion behind breakdowns, etc.
The G would obviously be the better choice, but I wouldn't want to ride with a bunch of screaming kids either. Maybe you could consider leaving 20 minutes earlier. Sometimes, that makes a big difference.
Lastly, I think that it's time that you bite the bullet and buy a $63 monthly metrocard. You're spending more money by buying a weekly metrocard and getting fewer days out of it. Sounds like your company doesn't offer TransitChek or a similar transportation reimbursement program. Too bad.
Howard, I just remembered that with your new work location we could spend some lunch hours in the Transit Museum when it re-opens in April 2003! (See, there is a silver lining to your longer commute :)
Seriously, you might want to do the #7 to one of the Lex southbound lines or #2 (which should be less crowded than the #4/5) to Borough Hall/Cour Street.
I even have a more RADICAL approach: drive to Ozone Park and take the A train to Jay Street. Sure, you'd have to walk a few blocks once you get to Jay Street, but your commute time might be saved by as much as 1/2 hour. Take the Van Wyck down and park near Aqueduct Race Track and I'd bet your commute time would be shorter than all the other route options. You might want to give it a try.
BTW, the reason I mentioned the Aqueduct stop as opposed to Lefferts Blvd. is that street parking is much better in the South Ozone Park area...
Is there a safe place to park within half a mile or less of the Acqueduct stop? Many areas near Acqueduct restrict parking on racing days.
If so, I'm surprised that half the population of Long Island hasn't found it. It would be very convenient from the Belt Parkway.
"They say nobody's ever beat the Van Wyck, if it wasn't for that 5 car pileup, he'd be on a plane to Seattle instead of trying to find a parking space"
Elane (Seinfeld)
Trust me, the Van Wyck aint a picnic.
"Wait a minute, what are you doing?! The Long Island Expressway, don't get on the Long Island Expressway! Are you crazy?!"
"George, just relax, trust me!"
"Oh, I had it times perfectly! The Grand Central, The Van Wyck! Now you've ruined everything!"
"George, just relax, there's no traffic this time of day; if anything, we'll get there early!"
[few minutes later in bumper-to-bumper congestion on the LIE]
Kramer: How does it look on your side?
---
Yep. Got to LOVE the Sein!
LOL!
I took Amtrak #145 yesterday from Hartford to NY Penn. Well, it was supposed to go to NY Penn. Instead, it terminated at NH. People at NH told me that it was due to equipment shortages and that the entire train will have its last run this Friday.
The consist was two Genesis locos pulling three coaches.
Everyone on the train had to wait 40 minutes for the next train from NH to NY.
Damn, that's not good. I can't believe they pulled the inland route train. Can anyone confirm that they are actually PULLING the service?
This sounds like the age-old Western Massachusetts fight. MA State had the nerve to say back in the 1990s that they will not support Amtrak service to Western MA, thus most of the current inland route terminates at Springfield rather than run through to Worcester.
AEM7
But the T runs to Worcester now, doesn't it?
How many were on that train ?
Historically it's been a light route. Back in the 60s they did with a RDC shuttle.
I'll bet CT DOT had something to do with it. The legislature has been in a fight over the available money going to 95 construction vs. increased bus/rail service. Roads usually suck up most of the money.
As I said, there were only 3 coaches. I can't speak to the load in the last one, but the 1st two seemed about 50% full. How does that compare with Amtrak's average load factor?
One of the things being considered is a commuter shuttle between NH & Hartford. It would be similar to the Shoreline East operation. If Amtrak cuts back the project may move off the back burner, but that won't help the wait at NH, so folks from NYC may switch to the bus.
Reminds me of the "Dinky" that runs from Princeton to Princeton Jct.
Yeah, they've also chopped service upstate, west of Rensselaer. We had to put Big Ed on a damnable Gray running mutt because there were no more trains until the next day. :(
Thanks, Tom DELAY (perfect name), Dickwad Armey and the rest of the GOP house for shutting down *OUR* subways on us. Prices didn't go down either.
Bring back the D&H!
Its been doing that ever since the cracks. It is also not a service cut as Hartford has not lost any trains. IN FACT, service has INCREASED with a new WEEKDAY midday shuttle train.
This train left Hartford for NH at 1:09 p.m. It will have its last run tomorrow. What time does the "new WEEKDAY midday shuttle train" leave Hartford for NH?
Also, where I come from, a one-seat ride is considered superior to a two-seat ride with a 40 minute layover. Substituting the latter for the former is indeed a service cut, IMHO.
The new train is the mid day train from New Haven to Hartford. I don't know about the reverse.
Are you now saying that the 145 train is being terminated this week? Even with 3 cars it has been consistantly packed and is the only train that serves Wooster. Are they also terminating the 146 train? Will they come back after the ACELA crack problem is fixed?
Presumably it's temporary. If they were cutting Inland Route service for real I would assume that they'd cut the northbound train as well (which they're not).
I just checked the Amtrak site and Train 145/1450 has been cancled after this week. However Train 55, the Vermonter is now making local stops from Springfield to New Haven including at least Meriden. They have also re-timed the Vermonter to sort of follow the times of the former Train 145. People traveling from Warcester catch the Lake Shore Shuttle and then change to Train 55 at Springfield with < hour layover.
I checked on the main page and they have up this petition for people to sign up to show their stance on being against the Fare Hike. I'm pretty sure that the majority of the posters on here are happily pro-fare hike. Any comments on this?
I am not pro-fare hike per se but prefer to see fares go up rather than have the system gutted, as has happened in the past. I would imagine most SubTalkers would agree with that.
I agree with that. Of course I would not want to see a fare hike, but at the same time I do not want to ride in the subway of the 70's and 80's either(well, maybe some of the rotting equipment, but you know what I mean). It has been a pretty long time since the last one, and in the time that the $1.50 was in effect the subway condition has been vastly improved, they started giving metrocard discounts, and have done a lot without touching the fare. It's not the end of the world. As long as when they raise it, they don't keep raising it like the post office has been doing with stamps every 6 months or so.
I agree. Of course, I would prefer to see tolls on the East River Bridges instead.
It's Russianoff, by the way.
Don't worry about that little detail. I realize I mispelled it when I typed it in the subject line. How about your thoughts on all this, Ronnie?
I don't want to see a fare hike, either. But if there is one, reemember that there will have been a pretty long stretch with no fare hike at all, so it won't be the end of the world.
Perhaps if they packaged it with other benefits (a publicly announced scheule to allow PATH and HBLR to accept Metrocards, and additional places on the subway where a transfer between subway lines outside of fare control is free, or...???
"I'm pretty sure that the majority of the posters on here are happily pro-fare hike."
Slight overstatement. No one WANTS to spend more money.
But SOMEONE has to pay to run the system. It can be more taxes, or higher fares, or else you cut back the service and defer maintenance. Taxes are going up anyway to cover other deficits, so that only leaves raising fares, reducing service dramatically, or deferring maintenance. Once you put it that way, raising fares is the only option.
I realize that. I should have added in the subject line 'Happily pro-fare hike with improvements for the system.'
its gonna happen,no matter what we say ,or do.So since we have no say so over MTA or TA deals ...we got to take it.hopefully there will be a package attached to it
Hate to say it, but Russianoff should step AWAY from the crack pipe. While I also realize that if there was nothing for "hangers" to beech about, Gene would be greetings visitors to Wal*Mart for a living, people would be willing to spend a bit more for their ride *IF* it goes to pay for those new trains and continuing improvements plus a reasonable raise for MTA employees.
What Russianoff *should* be doing though is checking out the politicians and see what these rumblings are up here in Smallbany about boosting the fare further to pay for OTHER things plus a profit for the "general fund" ... I can see THAT being objectionable if what I heard is true, that the subways are about to become a cash cow for OTHER state expenses ...
the subways are about to become a cash cow
They already are. The capital program for new cars is a feeding trough for defeated Republicans. Kawasaki is a big contributer to Pataki's campaign. Want to go the the contractors for the LIRR East Side Access Program?
New York City is also paying for Joe Bruno's baseball park (which killed our Albany team) and the existing Rensselaer Joe Bruno Amtrak Station *PLUS* a new station they're about to start on for SARATOGA which has next to no passengers using Amtrak at all. Yet another Joe Bruno phallic symbol at the city's expense. He's running unopposed, so there's no stopping Joey. But you still can vote against his butt-buddy Paturkey if this gets you a bit upset ...
(I can see THAT being objectionable if what I heard is true, that the subways are about to become a cash cow for OTHER state expenses ... )
The subways would be profitable at a $2.00 fare, and may even be including the cost of purchasing the cars. Add on federal money, it may be a cash cow. The buses will always lose, however. But the subway may take the place of other money in covering them, and the commuter railroads.
If the fare hike STAYS in "transit" I'm sure there will be no objections. What I've been hearing is that some of that money will be used for corrections and of course MOST of the increase would go to more handouts to corporations for "jobs development" ... NYS has done VERY poorly there, handing out billions only to have the companies receiving the bonuses using it to hire moving vans to move out of the state and creaing ZERO jobs, and then NOT being required to give the money back as long as a piece of that money went to campaign funds.
I thought CUOMO was corrupt, but he was a piker compared to Paturkey and Bruno ... sheesh.
What I've been hearing is that some of that money will be used for corrections and of course MOST of the increase would go to more handouts to corporations for "jobs development" ... NYS has done VERY poorly there, handing out billions only to have the companies receiving the bonuses using it to hire moving vans to move out of the state and creaing ZERO jobs, and then NOT being required to give the money back as long as a piece of that money went to campaign funds.
Rather than make these payments to big companies, the state and city ought to slash taxes and regulations. Then they wouldn't have to pay bribes to attract and maintain businesses. Reality check: most businesses today can located just about anywhere. Very few are tied into specific locations. And it's not hard to figure out that many of them will gravitate to low-tax jurisdictions with non-intrusive governments and low unionization rates - New York, needless to say, flunks on all counts.
In an ideal world, that'd be logical. Alas, the way the game is REALLY played is you give Joe Bruno $5,000 and you get $2.5 million in state contracts. Talk about "rate of return." Sheesh. What I find amusing though is Paturkey costs the same as a backwater senator and pays off even better. :)
As for taxes and regulations, New York has done a pretty good job of cutting BOTH loose upstate, the city continues in its own weird ways but it has a lot more mouths to feed. "Welfare" upstate pretty much consists of a fishing pole and a cardboard box so the costs aren't as extreme. Many major corporations up here pay $100.00 in taxes total. And a good number of them get PAID by the state to open their doors, however briefly. Oh if folks only KNEW the scams getting played while minimum wagers get socked. Remember Leona Helmsley's infamous line? "Only the LITTLE PEOPLE pay taxes" ... as Madeline Kahn said in "Blazing Saddles," "it's twue, it's twue ..."
Petitions are irrelevant.
Anybody who knows anything about New York politics is fully aware that the decision, WHATEVER IT MAY BE, has already been made by the "Gang of Three" (Pataki, Bruno, Silver) and will be announced no sooner than Wednesday, November 5 (the day after Election Day).
There is no justification for a fare hike. According to FTA figures, NYC bus and subway riders pay a larger portion of the actual cost of their rides than virtually every system in the country. And, like the NYC public school system, we are underfunded by both Albany and the City for both capital and operating expenses. Even in tough fiscal times, this is no place to balance the budget. But we will continue to give welfare to corporations and overfund and over subsidize downstate suburbia and Rensselaer County and pay a $2 fare or face cutbacks because of the politics of a fare increase.
I don't understand the hostility towards Gene Russianoff on this list. I met him 20 years ago when I was in a transit club in high school. He and Staphangers Campaign are advocates for the riding public. So are the local politicians whose constituents are riders and expect them to advocate. We need forces like Straphangers Campaign as well as local politicians, whatever their motivations, to try and balance out the forces that oppose NYC buses and subways. Otherwise, we do end up the way we were in the 1970s.
well said.
I find the antipathy here towards "public interest advocares", 'enviros', greens and the like misplaced. Its kind of remeniscient of 'very conservative' pro business, anti socialist attitudes when I was a younger railfan coming from the same people who whined about the evil conspiracy of National City Lines. Very few of them were able to see the 'contradiction' between their basic philosophy and anger at its inevitable results. There are exceptions, but from my perspective, enviros, and transit advocates (fans?) should be on the same side.
"There is no justification for a fare hike. According to FTA figures, NYC bus and subway riders pay a larger portion of the actual cost of their rides than virtually every system in the country. ..."
"I don't understand the hostility towards Gene Russianoff on this list."
If Russianoff's message were "Rearrange our financial priorities so transit gets more subsidy", there would be a mixture of agreement and disagreement but no antipathy.
However, the message that comes across is "Retain the current fare, no matter what you have to do to make that happen."
The latter message gets translated by the powers that be as "reduce services and maintenance so that the current fare can be maintained." It's this potential result of Russianoff's message that so many of us are unhappy about.
The object of R142 New Tech was to redice (reduce) maintainance costs with a trainset that is garunteed to provide thirty years of service.
The gamble has cost everyone...saving grace is that us old 'newbies' will have plenty of work after the warranty expires because the old timers OTJ refuse to accept the need for laptops and software to interrogate the systems without a pay increase. The situation is so bad that the kiosks for access to intranet were shut down and just recently removed. We have no internet bridge into the system to even look something up on our own time. Up the fare to something realistic...most of the trackage in my riding experience needs full replacement to run new trainsets at higher practical speeds without the myriad of GOs and timers. CI Peter
Pass it along to your Luddites ... "repent, reflect, reboot ... order will return as will the side signs." :)
I have met Mr. Russianoff before and for the amount of resources invested in Straphangers, it's amazing that they do what they do. I don't believe that anyone here dislikes him. However, the future of our mass transit system should NOT depend SOLELY on people who all don't use it daily. Subways mean nothing to any counties north and west of Rensselaer, very little to those between Rensselaer and Westchester, and the world to Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk, and New York City simply because of the amount of usage by their residents. By authorizing a fare hike, us city residents can take control of the financial future of our own mass transit system and continue to ensure its survival.
I am strongly opposed to any plan that does not address the entire $663 million deficit concretely. The $325 million that would rectify the funding disparity could be yanked from commuter rail, reducing the number of commuter rail to subway passengers...in otherwords, a dumb move. If the commuter tax was reinstated, the $400 miilion would help, but the suburbs will collect that money through MTA Capital by blocking further subway expansion on the account that the system can't take care of itself. Living organisms grow or die...stagnation does not exist in this context. Stopping subway and bus system growth leads to the NYCDOT bus system, where buses haven't been allowed to follow people, reducing their effectiveness. If we use Mr. Russianoff's plan, the MTA would absorb NYCDOT's system and start to follow the same plan due to money.
I met Mr R. somewhat more recently (only 6 or 7 years ago) when he was out with The Straphanger's parent - NYPIRG. At the time, they wanted me to sign a petition to force the closure of Fresh Kills right then. Unfortunately, upon being questioned, they had no viable options as to what to do with the garbage - they didn't want to burn it, truck it, open a new dump, barge it, nothing - just some womderful idea about having less. While a wonderful thought, forcing action to be (or not taken) without an alternative is down right stupid.
[... closure of Fresh Kills ... While a wonderful thought, forcing action to be (or not taken) without an alternative is down right stupid.]
Good point, but I do look forward to their weekly electronic newsletter. It covers the tri-state region rather well. I don't spend too much time reading about the position they are taking on the topic.
I think Pataki, Kalikon & Reuter have wanted the fare to go up for some time now (to help fill the big debt hole, that like the Ozone one keeps growing).
Unfortunately it's unlikely Pataki will just give them some of what they need out of the State's budget (the farebox shouldn't pay for the capital improvemnts that they are doing despite the failure of the Bond Issue last election).
Timing: Either shortly after the election or after Local 100 gets a new contract. I predict the latter ... blame it on the union, not the politians unwillingness to do the right thing :-(
It's ALWAYS the fault of those mysterious and murky "special interests" ... those very same that financed the campaigns and got everything they paid for while the unions and the rest of us get left holding the bag with the dye grenade in it. :(
Once "two term Paturkey" gets annointed to his third term, watch out for that axe ... things are so bad, they had to start swinging it BEFORE the election. Wait and see how much momentum it picks up in a couple more weeks.
Book and author descriptions pulled from Barnes & Noble:
New York's Forgotten Substations: The Power Behind the Subways (currently available)
All over New York City, hidden behind unassuming historic facades, sits the gigantic machinery of the power stations that once moved the subways. For over a century, the 125,000-pound converters and related equipment of the substations remained largely unchanged, but in 1999 the last manually operated substation was shut down and since then they have been systematically dismantled and sold as scrap.
In 1997, author Christopher Payne was introduced to the substations by an official of the Metropolitan Transit Authority's Power Division. Since then, he has rushed to photograph, draw, and write the history of these amazing buildings and their machines before they are completely gone. With virtually unlimited access to the substations, he has developed an intimate bond with the buildings that most people know only in passing. His beautiful photographs and detailed drawings bring these lost treasures to life, while his illuminating text tells their fascinating story. Anyone interested in the art of industrial America or the New York subway will find this book a delight.
Author Biography: Christopher Payne is an architect with Weiss Manfredi architects. He lives in Brooklyn, New York.
Metropolitan Railways: Rapid Transit in America (Due January 2003)
Metropolitan Railways is a large-scale, extensively illustrated volume that portrays the growth and development of urban rail transit systems in North America. From such impractical early schemes as a proposed steam-powered "arcade railway" under New York's Broadway, or Alfred Ely Beach's pneumatic subway, the book traces the development of rail transit technology through today's sophisticated systems that employ computer-era technology to attain fully automatic train operation.
Author Biography: William D. Middleton, a transportation and engineering historian and journalist, is the author of eighteen books, including The Time of the Trolley, The Interurban Era, and When the Steam Railroads Electrified, which together with Metropolitan Railways form a comprehensive illustrated history of all forms of electric railway transportation in North America. His most recent books are "Yet there isn't a Train I wouldn't take" and The Bridge at Quebec. He has contributed many articles and photographs to Trains, Classic Trains, Railroad, Vintage Rails, and other railroad enthusiast magazines and has written about electric railways, cable cars, Penn Station, and the historic Canton Viaduct for American Heritage and American Heritage of Invention & Technology. Middleton's professional career has included work as a structural engineer and bridge designer, and he completed a 29-year career in the U.S. Navy's Civil Engineer Corps in 1979, retiring as a commander. He joined the University of Virginia in 1979 as its chief facilities officer, retiring again in 1993. He remains active as a consultant in higher education facilities management.
--Mark
Mark, thanks for the book tip! With the holidays quickly approaching, I can now add them to my 'wish list'.
There is actually one more that I just ordered - it's from Arcadia Publishing and it's called "The New York City Subway", or something close. I am not sure what it is about, since Barnes and Noble didn't have a description of it, but if you have those books on the Boston Red Line and Green Line that are about 130 pages and are filled with pictures, I believe this book is just like those. They're from the same publisher, so I believe this is the same type of book. I'll let you know when I receive it. I know how much I liked the ones covering Boston transit.
--Mark
You know I posted this on 9/27.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=390149
You guys been in a cave or something?
I bought the book by Tom Range - "New York Subways".
Tom is a postcard collector and this book is a noble effort to tell a history of the NYC Subway by using the various postcards that have come out since the IRT first opened. He also has postcards of the H & M (PATH).
It is not a bad book but I found quite a number of glaring errors in it (considering it it most pictures with very little narrative - it was amazing).
For example:
On the Acknowledgements page (right in the beginning) he says the author of "Uptown, Downtown" is Steve Fisher. I know many of us take Stan Fischler to task for the erros he makes in his books but we always get his name right.
On the next page Tom Range says the first ticket was sold on October 24, 1904. Is anyone aware that the IRT sold tickets in advance of the opening.
Later on in the book he makes a reference that EL lines had 4 tracks (2 Express, 2 Local). Aside from a couple of terminals I never heard of that.
Overall it is not a bad book mainly for the postcards.
Nope, Allan, I had no idea! Since there are so many posts now, I only look at the current day and don't have the time to go back and look.
The only caves I've been in are subway tunnels ;)
--Mark
Story:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4351091.htm
Nice. At least this guy can say he got in early on a fad that is increasingly becoming more and more popular...getting killed by trains.
4 Less morons in the world...
Add to that: ( points) Mwaha!
Not to sound cold or foul but TOO DAMN BAD!!! Had ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS on the tracks!! Like someone stated here in a related post, this trespassing on rail R.O.W. and getting struck by a train is becoming some kind of fad or something!! People constantly and consistently think trains can stop on a dime or steer around their dumb asses. Unfortunately they are now DEAD wrong!! Unfortunate....but as I stated too bad because he had no business on the tracks!!
I was thinking about celebrating the IRT's 98th anniversary this Sunday by trying to ride the City Hall Loop at approx. 2:35 PM, which is the time the subway opened for business back in 1904. Anyone care to join me? I've ridden this loop a few times, and have never been disallowed access. Also, if anyone has suggestions, we could railfan other areas of the IRT (like the first 9.1 miles of track or something). Feel free to reply here, or e-mail me privately. -Nick
If you want to do it "right", the exact time was 2:35:30 pm :)
--Mark
You all have been so kind to me during my wife's illness with cancer.
The Lord took her today, and now she is not suffering anymore. I had to decide to take her breathing tube out, because she was in such bad shape.
Chuck Greene
The Vulcans have an expression: I grieve with thee.
I will pray that Grace and Peace will be with you and your family.
Thanks, Dan. You guys are all great. I hope to meet you all some day and enjoy my hobby.
Chuck Greene
And don't forget that she's not really gone, as long as you remember her.
sorry for your loss
sorry for your loss
Sorry to hear about your loss. My deepest condolenses go out to you and your family.
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
Chuck,
May the Lord be with you.
AEM7
My condolences. May you find peace and comfort.
Best wishes. and keep posting here.
I know how you feel, but now you have the pleasure of knowing shes no longer suffering. May god bless you and may god bless her soul.
I'd like to add my sympathies as well, I know how tough a decision that was for you. Life is a precious gift that we all have to return to our maker some day. I know the two of you enjoyed what you had together while it lasted, savor it. Remember her for all the good things you had together and know that what happened was for the best. For EVERYBODY as hard as it's been.
A great post. I'll second it.
and I'll third it!
And for good measure alot of condolances.
My feelings exactly. Please accept my condolences.
I am so sorry to hear that.
Best wishes and prayers.
-Larry
Our thoughts and prayers are with you and yours, as always. You and Jan were so supportive of Mary and I during Mary's illness; it is so sad that you two were not as fortunate as we were. But we know that you two cherished the many years you had together, and we know that you and your family will cherish the memories for many more years to come.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least her suffering is at and end and she is at peace. Please accept my deepest sympathies. God bless you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
i am sorry to hear of your loss
Please accept my dearest condolences. Death is never easy to deal with, but in the end you know that you've made her happy by relieving her of her suffereing, and she knows that you really love her by choosing her feelings over your own.
Im sorry to read about the loss of your loved one, my condolances go out to you. Be strong, take care.
Tom
My condolences to you and your family. I wish you well.
Adam
Please accept my deepest sympathies. You have a gift of support from your friends here at SubTalk. We're here for you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chuck,
My prayers are with you and your family. -Nick
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Karl B
Very sorry to hear of your loss.
My condolances to you for the loss of your wife.
#3 West End Jeff
I am very sorry to hear this. My condolances to you and your family.
---Brian
I am sure that your decision to have the breathing tube taken out THE most difficult thing you ever did. As painful for you as it was, it was the right thing to do and I am sure she would have told you this if she were able. My deepest sympathy to you and your family. God Bless!
Chuck...its time to rejoyce! she with the Father now!My heart goes to you and your family.will place you in my prayers.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. The body has moved on but her spirit and the memories will live on eternaly and will someday meet again in another life. God be with you. Stevie
AMEN.
I lost my mom earlier this year to the same terrible disease. You have my deepest sympathies.
Marty
My heart goes out to you. I know wht you must have went through!
Cancer is a terrible thing. I am so glad my wife is at peace.
At least she made it until her 54th birthday + (1) day.
Thanks, again -all SubTalkers who were kind enough to reply...
Chuck Greene
..as salaam alaikum ...
Her flesh has departed but her spirit is alive within you. Take comfort in your memories and with the knowledge that one day, you'll be reunited with her forever.
Dave
Chuck,
There was a line from the movie "Steel Magnolias" that always touched me....
"She's now in a place where she will always be young, she'll always be beautiful, she'll always be strong, and I feel very comfortable knowing that she's right there with Jesus fighting for all of us..."
That line may not be exact, but I feel it got the point across
Our prayers are with you and your family from the southern side of the Mason-Dixon Line.
Mark
Thank you for including us.
My deepest condolences to you and your family.
Sincerely,
Danny
I am deeply sorry for you and your familys' loss!! I know exactly how you feel and what you are going thru. I myself have had a lot of loss in my family between 1983 and 1999, so I share your grief, brotha!! I, again, am deeply sorry for you and your familys' loss!!
I feel your sorrow, Train Man.
Thanks so much!
Chuck Greene
I can only add my thoughts and condolences as so many others have.
May peace be with her soul and with you.
My deepest condolences.
---Andrew
Chuck,
You have my utmost sympathies for having to make such a difficult choice and for having to endure such a loss. May God bless you and keep your wife.
-Pete
Chuck ...
I am so, so sorry. May you be comforted by the pleasant memories the two of you shared.
--Mark
Thank you so much, Mark. It's tough but I will endure it. She is in a better place,now. Like I mentioned in some previous posts to other Sub-Talkers , maybe someday we'll get together on a fan trip.
Now that I'm on my own , I can kind of do what I want to, whenever,
barring work , of course. I had such a nice compliment from a guy at work who was amazed I did such a great job there, despite my problems. That made me feel good. Having my son and his wife here, will also help at this terrible time.
Best regards,
Chuck Greene
wow, i dont even know what to say. my condolences. may God be with you and her, in this time of mourning.
My Heartfelt Sympathies to you, Chuck!
/1sf9
You have my deepest sympathy.
Again, to all you Subtalkers that responded to me, my thanks.
Chuck Greene
Chuck,
My deepest and sincerest condolences.
Allan
My deepest sympathy on your loss. Hang in there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Tragic indeed. You have my sympathy.
I am sorry to hear about your loss. You have my deepest sympathies.
May God grant her a special place in heaven. You have my sincere condolances and may God bless you always. I'll keep your wife in my prayers from now on.
There comes a time in life when what we have learned and loved must come to some end and memories of what we had be not falsely prolonged.
Chuck, you did no wrong and made a proper decision. May the Grace of the Lord be with you always. CI Peter
We had the memorial service today. The urn with her ashes was displayed right up front. 115 or so people showed up and my lovely son gave a euolgy speech that was awesome. All time I reflected on the great showing of her friends, I often thought of how everyone
from SubTalk & Bustalk have been behind me in this ordeal.
Thanks again , guys & (gals). Like I said before, I'm going to meet a lot of you some day and enjoy my love of trains with you.
Chuck Greene
i herd over the loud seapker at atlantic av(Q 2345)that service beteewn chambers st and dekalb ave on the M line was not in service due to signl problems,in place of the M line was the W train running
local from pacific st to canal st on the N&R line.was it due to that
power outage 2 days ago or some thing else?
til next time.
The M hasn't been been running since this morning. People have been told to take a train to Canal for service North on the M and the W for Brooklyn.
Where has the J been terminating?
Normal service on the J. Apparently there was some kind of switch problem around DeKalb which also included a broken rail. Due to the slow speed orders, the number of trains per hour had to be cut, so the M got the ax.
There was a broken switch point north of DeKalb Av which messed up service all day. It involved the switch that merges the Q's and the W's coming off of the bypass.
Q's and R's went normal.
Northbound W's went via the Montague St. Tunnel.
N's in both directions went local on 4th Av.
M service was suspended between Bay Pkwy and Chambers St.
Overall, a total mess.
Philadelphia jazz saxman Byard Lancaster was arrested last July 26 for "making noise" in the Center City subway concourse. Last week, a Municipal Court judge dismissed the charge. Lancaster subsequently sued SEPTA in federal court for violating his First Amendment right of free expression.
Story in Wednesday's Inkie.
While I do have sympathy for the right of free expression, and some subway music is very much worth listening to, I do get irritated when someone's music is drowning out an announcement that would be hard enough to hear even without the music.
And the winner is.... 7076-7080, which arrived on the property tonight. Did 7071-75 show up already?!?
-Stef
Thanks for the news. Can't wait 'till I'm back in the city riding these babies...and hopefully redbirds too :)
--Brian
Hey Stef, I saw 6688's numeric successor last week on the Lex.:)
Eh?
I'm waiting to see that..... I got to see the new and improved 6688 yesterday as a matter of fact. Uunfortunately, it's exterior side sign wasn't working.
-Stef
That's what I meant. I saw the new 6688 just long enough to see its number. It was part of a 4 or 5 train.
It was a #5 train. Rode that car on the #2 back in June.
I assume it goes back and forth between the 2 and the 5.
#6688 2 7 Ave Express
Car switching.All 6301-6670 should be on the #2
The rest are on the #5.Alledgely.I witnessed 6301-6305/6371-6375 on the # 2 today.Also 6436-6440 was on there with somethin.
YOU KNOW
R142#7000
A.M.L
6436-6440 was with 6371-6375 today, I think.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
"R142As rule the East Side"
I rode #6688 on the 2 yesterday. It must be switching back and forth between the 2 and the 5. Also I rode in 6801 towards Manhattan yesterday morning - and it had updated announcements. It announced "Transfer is available to the 5 train" at both East 180th and 3rd Avenue. The old announcements only do that in the Bronx-bound direction. Also the inside destination sign now reads "The next stop is. . ." on 6801-05. Looks like they're finally updating the R142s as well.
Oh Stef spare me some grief. I'd rather do EP undercar than touch another piece of Canuck crap. Carbody for three days on R142s is easy but frustrating when you cannot eradicate vandals damage. Official visit to 207th yesterday...saw eight Redbirds being rebuilt.
Word is they are for garbage/worktrain mods. 7076-7080 should have gone directly to Atlantic ocean... I want to see my friends 8874/8875 at least once again. CI Peter
C I Peter, werent those cars strictly assigned to garbage train duty? I saw them in the summer time with 3 flat cars with EP001 and EP002 on the opposite end. This train was seen on the # 2 line just before E 241st street station. This was around late August.
Stef:
7071-7075 likely part of that 10-car arrival 10/17 & 10/18.
The others may have been 6806-6810. Still not confirmed.
Possible 6811-6815 will finally be on board tomorrow?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Maine and New Hampshire have, or had, narrow gauge RRs with only two feet between the rails. I discovered this on a trip to Portland, ME this week. Portland has an underpublicized train museum (it was a major freight and passenger hub before the 1960s) as well as a short transplanted narrow-gauge run.
Anyone else heard of narrow-gauge RRs? I hadn't...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Although it's only partially related to the topic, posters may be interested to know that Far North Queensland (FNQ), in Australia, has a very extensive complex of 2 ft guage sugar cane railways. These lines run all over the place, through the fields, across roads and drive ways, through farm yards, over long bridges, along the main streets of towns. The rails themselves are often half buried among weeds and cane stubble and there is an odd, almost model railway feel to the whole set up. Motive power is small diesel mechanical or diesel hydraulic locos.
I mention this because only last week I was having a beer in the pub in Mossman - about as far north as you can go in Australia with a standard vehicle - and watching rake after rake of cane trains, hauled by Bo Bo diesel hydralic locos rumbling through the main street.
BTW, FNQ seems to be a pretty popular holiday spot for Americans, so if anyone was planning a visit, theyb could do worse than check out the cane trains.
Apparently there's a large sugar cane field railway system in Cuba. I was reading in Trains Unlimited's tour brochure of a trip to Cuba to see them. The motive power is still mostly steam.
Apparently there's a large sugar cane field railway system in Cuba. I was reading in Trains Unlimited's tour brochure of a trip to Cuba to see them. The motive power is still mostly steam.
I believe Hawaii also once had narrow-gauge RR's in the cane fields. That makes Hawaii, Queensland and Cuba, probably others too - is there something about sugar cane that makes field RR's useful?
Mr Rosa
"is there something about sugar cane that makes field RR's useful?"
I don't know the precise answer to your question, but I understand that a recent government review of the Australan Sugar Industry, which recommended efficiencies and rationalisations all over the place, generally endorsed cane rail as the most efficient means of moving the harvest to the mills. I'll ty and find out more.
On the other hand, Central Java (Indonesia)seems to have had an exensive system of 2 ft sugar cane lines, but from what I cold see on a recent visit, they are no longer being used.
The Lahina, Kannapali & Pacific RR in Maui, Hawaii is a 3 foot narrow gauge line that started as a sugar cane railroad, and is now a tourist railroad. The efficiencies of sugar cane railroads was that they used steam engines and burned the waste cane (after sugar was extracted) as fuel.
The line is only about 5 miles long, but reaches all its namesake objectives in that short distance.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
Mr Rosa
Further to my earlier post, I understand that sugar cane has to be milled within 16 hours of its being harvsted. In the early days rail would have been the only option for moving large amounts of cane within that time frame and in FNQ, at least, it still seems to be the most efficient way.
Further to my earlier post, I understand that sugar cane has to be milled within 16 hours of its being harvsted. In the early days rail would have been the only option for moving large amounts of cane within that time frame and in FNQ, at least, it still seems to be the most efficient way.
Thanks for the information.
IIRC The Maine Two Footers is the title of a book on the subject.
Boston area ran a Narrow Gauge Railroad. From 1875 to 1940 the Boston Revere Beach & Lynn Railroad ran into Boston and its suburbs. It started with Steam Engines and coaches to electrified coaches and in the end Ex-Estern Mass Semi-Convertiable with Narrow Gauge trucks towards the end. Ther is a book that is out of print that is a great refrence on the BRB&L called: NARROW GAUGE, THE STORY OF THE BOSTON, REVERE BEACH & LYNN RAILROAD By Robert C. Stanley.
Today the MBTA's Blue Line runs along some of the ROW of the BRB&L. Hope this info helps Stevie :)
Strangely, when the BRB&L quit in 1940, at least one of the coaches was sold to the East Broad Top, where it still is. It stands out from the other EBT passenger equipment, as it has roller bearings. It also retains the lighting jumper sockets on each of the platform roofs.
FYI, I believe the long dreamed-of extension of the Blue Line to Lynn would follow the old right of way. At one point, in Revere Beach, a building was constructed on top of the old right of way. The building stood half finished for years after this was discovered. I do not know the recent status of this matter.
Two-foot gauge is quite common in various parts of the world. The Festiniog Railway in North Wales is actually 1'11.5" !
I found the Maine Narrow Gauge RR Museum on Portland when I was on a brief visit in August. The museum train ride along the waterfront is very pleasant. Photos of some of the Museum's equipment are on my ClubPhoto "Portland, Maine, visit" page, which expires the last week of November.
How about the Edaville Railroad in Carver, Mass.? :-)
Edaville is back in business with a 2ft. gauge train, but it is in what it basically a children's park.
Most of the equipment that was previously at Edaville is now at the Maine Narrow Gauge RR Museum in Portland.
Lots of narrow gauge railroads... New England had a bunch that have already been mentioned in the above posts, but they were all over the US. The most famous survivors in the US today are the East Broad Top in Pennsylvania and the various remnants of the D&RGW lines (Durango & Silverton, Cumbres & Toltec) out in Colorado and New Mexico. But there were many, many more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maine also hosts the Boothbay Railway Village and the Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes Railroad, both 2 foot gauge operations.
We visited Boothbay Railway Village, two years ago. It's a must
see in Maine. Besides the Railway, a very unique collection of
automobiles is present in one of the vintage buildings.
;-) Sparky
We were also there. We rode both the train and a Model T.
Isn't that a great little museum. Nice mix of something for
everyone. The Model T you rode, was that the land version or
the rail version?
;-) Sparky
It was a real Model T Ford they used to give customers a short ride around the grounds.
They also have a Model T Rail Car, that was in service on our visit,
besides the one on the grounds. The Railcar has two gears forward
and reverse and is quite expeditious. We passed on the land version.
;-) Sparky
Some of the equipment from Edaville (I believe the arch-roof coaches and the ex-Monson 0-4-4T's), currently at the Maine Narrow Gauge Museum in Portland, served at Freedomland in the Bronx. Nelson Blount bought it when Freedomland closed, he once owned Edaville along with Steamtown in Vermont.
If you're into archaeology, trace out the "2X6", the Monson RR, many structures including the Station at Monson, Maine still stand. There was an excellent article on it in a recent "Railroad Model Craftsman" magazine, along with some neat drawings of the Keokuk Dam trolley.
BTW, Massachusetts had the first 2' gauge RR in the US, the Bedford and Billerica, which was later standard gauged and is now mostly a hiking trail. I believe the equipment was sold to the Bridgton and Harrison.
The NY & Manhattan Beach Railway, which the current Bay Ridge line was originally part of, was a 3' narrow gauge from 1877 to 1883.
heypaul had a fictsious adventure a while back with a narrow gauge RR, its in the archives.....
avid
Nearly 20 years ago, when my father got our first car from an aunt in Springfield, we decided to drive home a different way, and took route 57 west. Somewhere not too far out, we passed a narrow gauge railway that came from the northeast, and stopped at the road. I always wondered what that was (mine tunnel?), and never thought to ask on this board.
One of the plaster walls in my living room (where I have my computer) is cracking and flaking off, depending on what is involved getting it fixed, I may have to disconnect the computer when the work is being done.
So I may not be available the next couple of days.
That's why I love my laptop! It takes up no space, does everything a desktop does, and I can move it or take it anywhere I want!
Well fortunately the problem wall is not by the computer, so I am just sliding the computer into the corner and out the way of the work.
I'll probably have to cover it with a sheet (I don't have a spare sheet).
Fortunately they just have chip off the remaining plaster and then smooth and paint the drywall.
The wall looks bad though, sorta like the bad side of BMT Chambers street, definately NOT pretty.
Ever hear of 'an extension cord?' I have three workstations, one of which is on wheels and my stinky neighbor upstairs has a leaking radiator. The light gauge Chinese copies of restaraunt shelving is the way to live...too bad they don't make similar bedding. CI Peter
I have three workstations, one of which is on wheels and my stinky neighbor upstairs has a leaking radiator.
I used to have a problem with my neighbor upstairs with that. The landlord kept telling him that there was nothing wrong, and there really wasn't. With steam heat the valve on the radiator has to be completely on, or completely off, if someone decides to turn it halfway, it will leak. He couldn't seem to understand that.
Somebody needs a new valve stem with a washer that works. No offense, own a home, know the reality. If it leaks "halfway" then it means that pressure's up and the grommet sucks. Need NEW one. Spend money, write it off as an expense. Unca Sammy's MIGHTY generous for landlord expenses, someone need to tell leasing agent that the "Great Deperession" is over, it's deductable. :)
And luckily I only lived in that apartment a year.....I hate steam heat.
Actually now I am much happier out of an apartment - with forced hot water heat anyway, although my furnace broke down last night and have been without heat or hot water all night...well it's time to jump in my ice cold shower and get ready for work and hope certain "things" don't disappear to much while in there......
Well my downstairs neighbor is getting leaks from their ceiling every time I take a shower. The landlord better fix that too.
I don't think it's such a good idea to use an extension cord with a computer (maybe a heavy duty one).
Also I don't have one of those "workstations", I don't have much furniture at all, so options are limited.
now these nuts want the gold line to run thru thier god forsaken town
without using any warning horns when the cross railroad crossings !
they want all the gold line trains to cross them silent !!
2 LONGS !! ( ONE SHORT ) ONE LONG ...
not in south pasadena !!
man we need to shove that 110 freeway up thier butts !!
big time .............lol
I was wondering how new and old tram operation works around the country and in Canada and Europe. I'm looking for:
payment systems
transfering to subway, other tram lines, buses
operating on non-grade separated roads with cars, what if cars get in the way, how do people get on, etc.
the minimum and ideal ROW needed for a two track line down a street, grade and non grade seperated
high platform v low platform stations, what is good and bad about either
ADA requirments for newer systems
peculiarities of specific systems
anything else of interest
I live in Westminster, Colorado which is about 12 miles from downtown Denver, but I railfan with my family whenever possible.
The payment system is not user friendly at first introduction. There is no fare control. RTD loses an undetermined amount of money. Hey, but that's O.K., tax payers from all over the metro are foot the bill. The reason for the dig is because very few areas are served by light rail so far. However, that is about to change.
There are no tram line connections and none planned. However, stops at Park & Rides seem to coordinate well with the bus schedules.
You can board from street level or from handicap ramps at either end of the station. The LRV operator has to manually lower the gang plate. High full station length platforms are impractical. On city streets, cars pretty much stay out of they way. It was tough going the first few years for cars and pedestrians alike, but now that people are used to the flow of traffic, there have been fewer incidents. I don't know much about "ideal" ROW, but Denver has tracks running in different directions, 1 block apart. Motor vehicles for the most part do not share the ROW, however. Most of the existing lines run parallel to B&SF ROW. As far as peculiarites and things of interest, that's a long post in itself. I'll be happy to provide more info if anybody's interested.
I'm working on an article on Denver's light rail system (I'm a Centennial resident myself) coming soon to this website.
The payment system is an honor system of sorts, with roving fare inspectors who ask to show proof of payment. If you can't come up with a valid ticket, transfer, or pass, you're escorted off the train at the next stop and subject to a fine. Light rail tickets are good on buses and bus transfers are valid on light rail.
The tracks are a block apart at the downtown loop between 14th and 19th Streets, which was built the way it was to allow trains to loop from either direction. Currently only trains from I-25/Broadway or Mineral Ave. do so; however, trains from 30th Ave. looped via the unused connector earlier this year while the new spur line was being tied in. There is a five-block stretch of single track along Welton Street from 24th to 29th Streets.
The Southwest Corridor runs along the BNSF rail corridor. Trains there cruise at 55 mph, sometimes racing freight trains.
The next line to open will be the Southeast Corridor along I-25, part of a massive project known as T-REX. Its completion is slated for 2006. The West Corridor line out to Golden is currently undergoing an EIS (environmental impact study). Several other lines are on the drawing board as part of a package called FasTracks. It may go before voters next year.
One thing I forgot to mention: our new spur line, known as the C line, serves all three major league sports facilities in Denver as well as Six Flags Elitch Gardens. You can take light rail to an amusement area here.
The current light rail setup in Ottawa, Canada runs LRT's on a single track freight train line owned by Canadian Pacific Railway. This was done to make the line inexpensive so that the anti-transit portion of our population wouldn't squawk about it too much. There are five stations, with the middle one at Carleton University being two tracks to allow trains to pass each other.
The line does not currently run downtown, but there are plans to extend it there when funds become available (there are no existing train tracks downtown to run it on). In the mean time a free transfer can be made to a Transitway bus (using a reserved bus-only highway) to get downtown.
Fares are run on the honour system, with guards boarding the train at any given time to check if everyone paid their fare. These are the same guards that also inspect transfers and passes on articulated buses, as in Ottawa one is allowed to board an artic by the rear doors if s/he already paid their fare. OC Transpo is very liberal with their transfer policy (ie allows for return trips, getting off and getting back on same route, etc), and transfers from bus to train and vice versa are free.
The stations have low platforms, with low floor trains to match. The entire line is fully accesible, there are usually no stairs to climb, and where there are, there's also an elevator.
Plans currently exist to extend the current line downtown and to the airport, and to create an east-west line that will also use an existing freight line.
The Croydon Tramlink in (south) London, UK, is an interesting system which seems to be quite successful although it was initially controversial. It opened in 2000, just under 50 years after the last red trams run in London.
Payment: tickets from machines on the stations, but London Transport travelcards are also valid. Honour system with roving inspectors.
Transfers: o.k. with travelcards. O.K. with ordinary tickets to & from special connecting bus routes in the New Addington area. (New addington was previously the largest residential community in greater London without any form of rail access.) At Wimbledon, Birkbeck and Elmers End stations, the trams use former train platforms within the rail stations. At Beckenham Junction, Mitcham Junction and East Croydon, they tram stops are right outside the train stations. At West Croydon the tram stop is a little further away from the train station but close to the bus station. At Addington Village, a new interchange station was built to serve the trams and the aforsiad special bus routes.
Most of the route mileage is on old railway ROW: the former Wimbledon to West Croydon, Elmers End to Addiscombe, and Woodside to Sanderstead lines, all of them former Southern Railway third-rail electrified branches which had pretty thin traffic. From Birkbeck to Beckenham Junction, a former double-track train line is now a single-track train line (still with passenger trains) and a parallel single-track tram line. The rest is new ROW, some of it within parks, but some on-street running both in the middle of Croydon, and on the way down to, and within,New Addington.
I don't know what the minimum ROW width is. Most of the system is double track except in central Croydon where it runs down one-way streets, the Beckenham Junction stretch mentioned above, and a few short single-track stretches on the Wimbledon line.
It has high platforms; at the street stops platforms have been built at the edge of the sidewalk with slopes at their ends for wheelchairs. The system is DDA (UK equiv. of ADA) compliant.
Part of the right-of-way of the Wimbledon branch runs over the route of the Surrey Iron Railway, one of the oldest in the world, dating from about 1800 with horse haulage! There is a longish tunnel on the New addington branch inherited from the Woodside-Sanderstead line.
It has high platforms; at the street stops platforms have been built at the edge of the sidewalk with slopes at their ends for wheelchairs. The system is DDA (UK equiv. of ADA) compliant.
Actually Croydon uses low platforms and low platform light rail cars. The two match up to give level access from platform to car so it is DDA compliant. I'm not sure of the exact platform height, but I'd say no more than a foot or so.
The cars are double-ended, single-articulated vehicles, with high floors over the outer (motor) trucks but a low floor through the rest of the vehicle including the articulation. The centre truck is unpowered and axle-less to allow this. There are four doors per side, all opening into the low floor section.
Because Croydon is in South London, which is not well served by the Underground, there is only one Light Rail to Subway interchange. This is at Wimbledon, where different surface platforms are served by Underground, Commuter and TramLink lines.
Birmingham and Wolverhampton, UK, "Midland Metro" (okay, it also goes through the towns of West Bromwich, Wednesbury and Bilston).
The fare system was initially pay a machine on the platform, with an occasional fare inspector lurking around. Unfortunately, the machines had a tendency to malfunction (thus removing the liability to a fine for riding without a ticket) and the removal of that liability encouraged some people to wilfully make the machines malfunction / smash them up. Now there are conductors on the trams, selling tickets.
Transfers are awful. There is practically no fare integration with local buses (despite most of them being run by the same company) and to use a bus pass on the tram, one has to buy an add-on. Needless to say, most people still ride the bus (or those who want to go faster the train).
The Midland Metro mainly runs on the former Great Western Railway line. It uses some new, low platforms on one side of Birmingham Snow Hill station, and the old (1987) Platform 4 has been fenced off. It joins the street just West of the Priestfield stop and crawls in traffic into Wolverhampton Town Centre (completely eliminating all time gained by not running into Wolverhampton Low Level station). Every few weeks a tram collides with a car or lorry at Priestfield and the Wolverhampton section is suspended.
The low platforms used in the Midland Metro are okay for the disasterous on street section, but make rail interchange a bit of a pain (Birmingham Snow Hill isn't fun). The main advantage is that the disabled can use the line with ease. The main disadvantage is that the lack of integration with the existing heavy rail lines has failed to relieve Birmingham New Street as the worst rail bottleneck in the UK (a proper system would allow Leamington Spa - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton HL - Shrewsbury or Stafford to be rerouted via Birmingham Snow Hill and Wolverhampton LL).
The key peculiarity is that it is the only Light Rail system in the UK which makes a loss. Too many stops in unnecessary locations mean that it feels slow. Surprisingly the Councils of the boroughs it runs through want to add a second line and extend the street running section, adding a second street running section in Birmingham City Centre (gridlock or what?!?) - this is more due to vested interests than to any sense or reason. In short, the Midland Metro should close.
You don't like it then :)
Simon
Swindon UK
Hmm these writeups so far would make interesting permanent additions to the site.
Anyway. I'll chime in about Hudson-Bergen LR...
Right of way: Combination former railroad ROW, new ROW, some street running. There's new "ground level" ROW between Liberty State Park and Van Vorst St. although there was formerly some freight spurs in the area. The tracks and row of these freight spurs were long gone, however (although you can still see tracks embedded in the street at Jersey Ave. near the new light rail station). In the Newport area a concrete elevated structure carries the line over some streets, including the Holland Tunnel entry plaza, and into Hoboken Yard (NJT) on separate trackage. A short section of street running from Van Vorst St. to Essex Street Station (the street is one-way. One track runs in the one traffic lane and the other in a reservation along the side of the street- people parallel & double parking along the street often cause the trains to have to stop & wait) and a short section of reserved lane running from Essex St. to just south of Harborside. The southern ends south of Liberty State Park are former Central RR of NJ right of way (which led to bridges across Newark Bay/Hackensack & Passaic Rivers which have long been abandoned)
Fare collection: machines on platforms sell tickets. Stamp the ticket in a machine on the platform before boarding to validate it for 90 minutes. Roving fare inspectors and fines for unticketed passengers. I don't believe there is ANY bus transfer along the line although there's certainly plenty of places to transfer to buses (Exchange Place, Hoboken Terminal etc). I'm not sure but I think there is a monthly/weekly pass system and also a pass system that includes parking at the stations that have park & ride lots (Liberty State Park, 34th St. Bayonne)
Platforms: Low level about 6 inches off street. Stations can accommodate two-car trains. Low floor cars. Platforms have ramps at the ends.
Track: all double track
Expansion plans include utilizing some more former railroad ROW through Hoboken & Weehawken NJ.
NIMBY's nixed almost all of the street running that was in the original specification & plans for the light rail. The system would be a lot more useful with street running portions in downtown Jersey City (e.g. Jersey Ave to Newark Avene to Exchange Place) and Hoboken. But there were a lot of complaints... now everyone just complains that the system isn't very useful.
-Dave
Must do the Hoboken section in a couple of weeks time, and take time out to do Hoboken terminal.
Simon
Swindon UK
I rode 2 weeks ago on a Saturday, and instead of a 90 minute ticket, I got a ticket which said "Good for One Continuous Trip Until Used". Nobody collected it, so I assume it's still good. I rode out of the new Hoboken Terminal to Bayonne and back. I can't believe how much Jersey City has changed, at least along the waterfront. The skyscrapers seem to be growing like weeds! Just south of Exchange Place there's a large "bathtub" excavation for a skyscraper, similar to the one at the WTC. If anyboby has a chance, I would strongly recommend riding the HBLR. If nothing else, it's a fun ride!
In Denver, a one-way light rail ticket is valid for approximately one hour and 25 minutes. A round trip ticket is good all day long on the date of issue. At least the ones I've bought don't have an expiration time on them.
In St. Louis, a one-way ticket comes pre-timestamped from the vending machine. Time is good for two hours, only in the direction you boarded. How do the spotters know? Since we only have one line at present, the fare spotters know what station you got embarked on and where you are when they check your ticket. Heading in the wrong direction of your validation? Tough luck - you get fined and ejected. Only exceptions I've seen is where someone bought a ticket, got on in the wrong direction and their ticket was checked before arriving at the next station. The spotters will let you off to revalidate your ticket, and reboard.
Round-trip tickets must be validated by the passenger at a validation machine on the platform. Failure to validate your ticket is akin to rising with no ticket; i.e., if caught, a fine and ejection. I've seen fare spotters let passengers get off at the next stop and validate their ticket, then reboard. It's subjective - kids usually are assumed to be fare cheaters (using a used unvalidated ticket)and older adults catch a break. The ticket expires 24 hours after purchase.
Day passes require no validation and are good for unlimited rides. They are time sensitive and expire after 24 hours. Day passes are more expensive than a round trip ticket, so no one buys them unless they plan multiple rides in a 24-hour period.
MetroLink also offers 10-day and monthly passes.
The Docklands Light Rail system in London is a very different light rail system to the Croydon Tramlink in the same city described elsewhere in this thread.
It is fully automated, with no drivers. Current collection is third-rail. Of course this means the right of way is fully segregated. Partly on on old railway ROW, partly in tunnel and partly elevated.
The cars and platforms are high, given level access from platform to car. The cars are double-ended single-articulated cars with no dirvers cab and a full width railfan window at each end. They usually run in coupled pairs.
Despite being high-platform and highly automated, the cars are derived from German streetcar design. The first tranche of cars wasn't designed with underground operation in mind (the intitial system had no tunnels) and had to be retired; they were bought by Essen in Germany, were fitted with cabs and pantographs and now operate in-street in that city.
Most platforms are accessed by stair and elevator; a few stations have escalators. Stations are (apart from the underground ones) unmanned; tickets are sold from ticket machines. Fare collection is based on the honour system, with tickets inspected by a 'Train Captain' who patrols the train and also controls door closure (from whichever door is nearest to where he happens to be). If need be, (s)he can (and is trained to) drive the train at limited speed manually using usually locked controls at the car ends.
The system is quite complex. There are five terminals (Bank, Tower Gateway, Lewisham, Beckenham and Stratford) with several interlocking services. See here for more details.
The line largely serves the rejuvenated docklands area, which is rapidly becoming the center of London's financial industry. One are (Canary Wharf) was planned by the same architects as the World Financial Center in NY (and looks it).
At first the system was a bit derided as under-speced for the amount of traffic, but with subsequent platform and train lengthening, more routes and the addition of a separate Jubilee line tube line to Canary Wharf it now seems to be very successful. A new extension has just been approved to serve London City Airport.
Transfer between tube and DLR, and mainline rail and DLR, is pretty good in most places they coincide. At Bank, DLR runs into the underground tube station; at Stratford the DLR runs into a surface station shared with two tube lines and two mainline rail lines; at Canning Town the DLR platforms are elevated immediately above the (surface) Jubilee tube lines; at Lewisham the DLR station is just outside the mainline station.
Ironically the one place transfer isn't good is Canary Wharf, which has a pretty monumental elevated DLR station and a truly amazingly monumental underground tube station, but several hundred yards apart.
In case you haven't heard, two men were arrested in the sniper case. They were found, asleep in a car, in a rest area on WB I-70 midway between Frederick and Hagerstown in western Maryland (about an hour east of where I am which means they were headed in my direction).
WHEW!!
Mark
I'm still trying to make sense of the "duck in a noose" analogy.
The boastful rabbit snares the duck in a noose, but the duck drags the rabbit instead until the rabbit stumbles and loses the duck.
The sniper thinks thusly: The duck is the sniper; the rabbit is Chief Moose of Montgomery County. It's a taunt.
It's duck season! It's rabbit season!
Now I can enjoy being outdoor again!!
Now you can fill up your gas tank again -- without having to act like a moving target when you did...
Last time they thought they had possible suspects, it turned out to be illegal immigrants and nothing more. While this seems more promising, let us not assume these are the guys yet.
Looks like ballistics on the 223 matches... I'd say these are the guys, and if not they certainly know who did it. **
**Innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I think it's a good bet the world's a slightly safer place now...
...or the ONLY guys. Could be it was more than just these two...we'll see.
If nobody else gets shot the way the sniper did it, we can safely assume the right guys are in custody.
Since we are a little closer to the shootings than NYC, it was certainly unsettling to discover that between shootings, guess where the two holed up.
Baltimore.
Except for the shootings close to Richmond, the pair would do the deed and head right back to Charm City.
They were even questioned by a city cop on October 8. Noting nothing amiss, he noted all the proper info in the police database and the info on John Mohammad was passed to the Sniper Task Force the next week. This went into the reams of data being collected and became one more piece of the puzzle.
Much of the information collected was not shared with the media until now.
Dan,
I can certainly relate to the "too close for coomfort" feeling. The fact that they were found in the WESTBOUND lanes of I-70 between Frederick and Hagerstown puts them a little more than an hour east of me and HEADING IN MY DIRECTION (Cumberland).
All I can say is, take care my friend and lets pray there isn't a copycat sniper.
Mark
Well, I was filling up in a protected area (military installation) during this period. The gas was a bit higher than my normal location (across the street from Michaels in Frederickburg where one person was wounded). But at least I wasn't on his scope.
Phil Hom
Stafford, Virginia
http://www.septa.org/riding/rpower.html
Its a shame, over the past 70 years that catenard had turned a lovely shade of green. I hope they don't replace the maroon insulators with gray ones. Someone needs to get out there and photograph the current setup.
Earlier this week, Lots Road Power Station in London closed down after 100 years' service. It was built to provide power to the Metropolitan and District Railways when they were first electrified.
The London Underground will now be powered entirely from the public electricity supply.
What are they going to do with it? Museum?
John
I looked myself, it’s shops and offices. Press release here.
More history down the Tube…
With power companies going bust, being taken over, and closing uneconomic power stations left right and centre, lets hope that there won't be US style power shortages.
I was on the Underground when there was a power interruption. When there is a glitch such as this, apparently the signalling system loses all of the trains. When power is restored, they then have to find them all again before they can get moving!
Around 9:15 this morning, I was heading into Queens on an R. I didn't see an E at Queens Plaza, so I stayed on the local to Roosevelt, where I was getting off. Between 65th and Roosevelt, we passed a fairly crowded R-32 F train; at Roosevelt, an empty E train was sitting on the express track with its lights off. (The south motor was xx01 -- 3801, maybe?) Did anything interesting happen? How long were the F passengers stranded? (I'm glad I didn't get off at QP to wait for an express.)
I would have hung around for a few minutes but I was already running late. When I got back at 11:30 or 11:45, everything was (seemingly) back to normal.
Man I never see those R32 F trains!
Was the E an R46 or R32?
R-32. I don't think I've seen an R-46 E train for close to a year. This was the first R-32 F train I've seen since the summer or possibly late spring.
I saw an R46 E train last week.At first I thought it was an F as usual but when it left I noticed that it was an E not an F.
Yeah I've seen plenty of R46 E's in the last few months.
Probably because R-32s are starting to go on the F more often.
Well, there's only 5 or 6 trains of R32's on the F so it's just a matter of luck. I see one or two almost every day & I rode one a few weeks ago :-). The bset chance to see/catch one in the rush hours, particularly the AM rush.
I see the F R-32s mainly on the PM rush!! Be out looking during the PM rush hours!! Just don't ever think of asking the conductor what he/she thinks of it!! :-) (chances are you'll get a "not so good" reaction!!) Me when I worked the Queens extra list I loved having the R-32 on the F!! Better doors (faster than an R-46) and (my personal favorite) good PA!!
The E train at Roosevelt had smoke issuing. I did not hear what the cause was. A question for Train Dude. : )
A burnt field shunt coil on the lead motor.
Thank you I was there but could not place that smell. It was a cross between brake and electric.
Train Dude- please e=-mail me off-site. I noticed you no longer post your e-mail.
Here's a tip for all of your before you take your next trip, always check out Amtrak's Rail Sales page on their website. http://www.amtrak.com/railsale.html
If you go there now and click on the icon you will see that, for example, Chicago to Pittsgurgh via the Pennsylvanian is $11! Chicago to Cincinnati is only $7.90! I once went to Cleveland from Philly for 11.82 on a rail sale, but I keep forgetting to check the offers on a regular basis. So, next time you htink that Amtrak is too expensive to use for a travel option, try checking out their rail sales. Heck, they also make for a great and inexpensive railfan vacation. Just get on a $22 Amtrak round trip and get home 2 days later.
Railsale has a non-refundable policy. So far they have eaten about $200 from me without ever having carried me a mile. Rail sales are not recommended for people with busy schedules!
For the interested among us:
Ebay: A Hudson Terminal station pillar sign.
((If you look at the seller's OTHER items, he's got
NYC Subway Maps from the 1940s up))
Forget it.
Terry Kennedy got it for $115.00 in a "buy it now" move.
Unless ebay had changed the rules I find it interesting that he was able to do that. On a "Buy it now" auction, the if the first bid is not at the "BUY IT Now" price then that option disappears. There were 4 bids before his.
There was a reserve on that auction that hadn't been met.
As long as the reserve isn't met, the "Buy it now" stays there.
-Larry
OK I understand.
Most of the "Buy It Now" auctions I bid on are usually No Reserve types.
Unless ebay had changed the rules I find it interesting that he was able to do that.
"Buy It Now" can be tied to either "first bid" or "reserve price". In this case, it was tied to the reserve and the reserve had not been met.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
$115 for a sign? Yikes.
Well there are some deals on Ebay, but often stuff will go for way over estimated value. Especially consumer electronics.
$115 for a sign? Yikes.
Yikes is in the eye of the beholder 8-)
Seriously, one-of-a-kind (or at least scarce) stuff goes for whatever the market will bear. I agree with you about the commodity stuff - I don't know what is with some bidders that they don't bother checking what the retail price of things is before bidding.
You'll be able to see this sign (and tons of other H&M stuff) at a museum exhibit early next year. It will almost certainly be the largest collection of H&M stuff ever exhibited, and will run for 3+ months. More info when we get closer to the date...
Well with vintage stuff that isn't sold anymore I guess I can understand the price.
10 or 20 years from now the Redbird stuff (roll signs,car # plates) could be selling on Ebay for 100 dollars or more!
10 or 20 years from now the Redbird stuff (roll signs,car # plates) could be selling on Ebay for 100 dollars or more!
Redbird Roll Signs are already selling for up to $300 on eBay
$300 which woulda been for TA banks had they thought
to sell them directly from the Weeks Crane...
Coulda/Woulda/Shoulda been enough to save us a hike..
Given how these auctions can go, that's a pretty reasonable ending price. If I wanted the sign, I'd pay that. I've seen sillier things go for more....
Hello, I am new to this site. Hope someone can help. I plan to attend a friends wedding after xmas in newark and would like to fly it to lga or jfk and ride subway to newark. Is this possible? Thanks in advance! Bill in Denver
Better off flying in to Newark. There are direct busses from LGA/JFK to EWR, or from JFK take Port Authority Bus to Howard Beach, A Train to Jay Street Boro Hall, F Train to 34td, go up stairs, take PATH. about 2 hours. From LGA, take Q33 to end. Take F Train to 34th, then as above maybe 90 minutes
Fly to Newark International (EWR). AirTrain Newark will take you to the Airport Rail Station; NJ Transit trains will get you to Penn Station-Newark. Or, take the NJ Transit bus from the terminal to downtown Newark (I think it's line 61 but somebody correct me if I am wrong).
It's the #62 Newark-Perth Amboy bus...last time I checked.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Thank you, yes, you are correct.
I've taken this bus three or four times because cross country flights were often cheaper to EWR than to LGA or PHL. After AirTrain Newark opened, I've used it once to get me back to Philly afte landing in Newark.
Bill,
First of all, welcome aboard.
There are no direct single ride links from LaGuardia or JFK to Newark (unless you want to pay for a cab ride).
At LaG you would have to take a bus to the subway (a long ride). If you took the Q48 to Flushing you would have to change for the #7 train, take it to Queenboro Plaza, change for the N or W. Take that to 34th St and then switch to the PATH train (an additional fare) to Newark. At LaG there is also the Q33 bus - you can take that to Roosevelt Av/74th St, catch the F train to 34th St and get PATH there.
From JFK, you can take a shuttle bus to the Howard Beach subway station. Take the A train to 34th St/8th Av. Walk over to 6th Av to get PATH.
These are just examples. There are other local bus routes from LaG that can take you to a subway station (Not recommended if you have luggage). I am sure others on the board will have possible routes as well.
Why not try to get a flight from Denver to Newark?
You might be better off if your flight lands at Newark.
If you have to take Mass Transit:
From JFK look for the Q10 bus. Take it to Union Turnpike/Kew Gardens and take the F train to 34St/6Ave for the PATH train to Newark/Penn Station. You might be able to catch an Amtrak train from there to the airport. If not, you'll be able to take an airport bus that will run express from Newark/Penn Station to Newark Airport.
If you arrive at LGA, take the Q33 bus to 74St/Roosevelt Ave for the F train and continue as above.
Carfare either way will be about $15 to $20. $1.50 for the bus, Another $1.50 for the subway and $1.50 more for the PATH and about $11 for the airport bus. I don't know how much for Amtrak. Probably more than $11. Maybe someone has a better method of traveling there. But that is what I'd tell customers if I was at work.
"Another $1.50 for the subway and $1.50 more for the PATH and about $11 for the airport bus."
Actually, NJ Transit's 61 bus from PATH at Newark should be only about a dollar.
Yes, but I think you're not supposed to bring luggage on that bus. (Don't know if people normally do anyway.)
"Yes, but I think you're not supposed to bring luggage on that bus. (Don't know if people normally do anyway.)"
I have routinely done so without any problem. Your information is inaccurate. That bus is for airline passengers and employees alike.
Is this possible? Thanks in advance! Bill in Denver
Easiest thing in the world...
You get one of them yellow cabs... :)
Elias
and spend $75.00. There is Van svc from LGA/JFK to EWR. ust check with the Transit Info Desk at Baggage Claim. About $25.00 pp
Just get a flight that'll take you to Newark Airport and take the NJT bus route 62 to Newark-Penn Station.That's a whole lot easier than if you arrived at JFK or LGA.
I agree that flying directly to Newark would be easiest, but if the fare is that much less to JFK, here's what I suggest.
There is a bus from JFK (The airline I work for flies to terminal 6, so I know it's there.. not sure about the other terminals) to Jamaica Station LIRR. It costs $5. From Jamaica, take LIRR to New York Penn Station and transfer there to NJ Transit. This may not be the cheapest way to go, but it'll certainly be less than a cab and easier than any of the other suggested methods.
Sorry, I don't have anough experience with LGA to help you there.
ian.
LGA offers the Q48 bus to the 7 subway, or the M60 bus.
There is airport transportation info at www.mta.info.
I plan to send this to the Daily News:
I was shocked to read in the Daily News that someone suggested banning cell phones on the train. This probably would go over well with our current Communist Mayor who tells us how to live our live, what to smoke, eat, etc.
As an avid cell phone user, I find this thought offensive. However, if all the other subway annoyances I list below are eliminated, I’ll gladly fry my phone on the third rail.
1. Guys who sit on the train with their legs so far apart, that they actually have to keep the door between the cars open to fit the other leg into a seat in the next car.
2. Women who talk non-stop from 207th Street to Far Rockaway. This isn’t annoying, but a cell phone conversation is.
3. People who get on the train at rush hour, during maximum crowding, and bring on a baby stroller the size of a small SUV.
4. People who apparently haven’t bathed in 10 to 12 years.
5. Men or women who wear enough personal fragrance to fell a charging buffalo.
6. Anyone, and I mean anyone, including priests, wearing a backpack.
7. Conductors who, at express stops, wait until you’re ½ inch from the doors, and then close them, causing you to miss your connection.
8. A conductor who tells you your train is skipping 300 stops AFTER he closes the doors.
9. People who block the doors at stations even though the train is empty, and there are plenty of seats.
10. People who wouldn’t wait for their own crippled mother to get off the train before barging on.
11. Motormen who do 1 inch per minute even though every light is green, and there appear to be no track workers.
12. Teenagers talking loud enough to punch a hole in the space/time continuum.
13. People who leave soda, coffee, water or bodily fluids on seats.
14. People who come on the train and preach about God for 2 ½ hours, even though they’ve just returned from robbing a convenience store.
15. Kids wanting me to buy rotten M&Ms to support they’re basketball team.
16. People who see that the space next to you is only microns in size, yet insist on squeezing in to sit, thereby making everyone on that bench uncomfortable.
17. Extremely old and decrepit senior citizens who stare at everyone as if they were from another dimension.
I cannot think of anything else. Once again, once all these problems are corrected, I’ll give up my cell phone.
Did I forget anything?
Personally, I cell phones are probably only a problem on the elevated lines, as they don't work underground anyway. But I do find it annoying when someone talks non-stop on a cell phone. I've seen this more on the LIRR than the subway though. The converstations seem to be longer and more plentiful there. On a recent LIRR trip I had to listen to some guy screaming on his cell phone from Patchouge to Babylon almost non stop, with shoddy connections. He kept yelling "Hello-I think it's a bad connection....HELLO.....HELLO......HELLO.....HELLO....." at the top of his lungs over and over and over for at least 10 minutes. Then, "Hi I'm Rob, I will be taking over your account on your car loan......HELLO......HELLO......" Then I though I was done with it at Babylon where I had to switch to my connection to Penn Station, and then had to hear some other guy talking to ever person he ever knew, and also every person he ever knew called in also. That lasted the entire ride from Babylon to where his cell phone cut out entering the East River tunnel.
Now I have a cell phone also, but I hardly ever use it nonstop on the train, or subway, or in a restaurant (another gripe). So no, I don't have any sympathy for those who use their cell phone non-stop on the trains or subway.
if you are gonna find it annoying for a person to talk on a cell phone the whole time, you might as well find it annoying for two people to talk the whole trip, which most do on the train. Whats up with the hatred of Cell phones? its like that activists group that destroys suv's because they claim they pollute the air when the same damn cars we drive and those energy plants do the same thing. hell pigs and humans who do "silent Killers" pollute the air strongly too.
if you are gonna find it annoying for a person to talk on a cell phone the whole time, you might as well find it annoying for two people to talk the whole trip, which most do on the train. Whats up with the hatred of Cell phones?
I have NOTHING agains cell phones, I am a daily, regular user of one. But, for some reason when two people are engaged in a normal conversation, the volume of the conversation is much less annoying or loud on the train. With cell phones the volume is much louder because it many times entails someone screaming into the cell phone. Haven't you ever been at a restaurant having to listen to someone screaming into their phone? The same person, when they get off the phone, will then continue their normal volume conversation with the person they are with, which is not annoying at all. The same is true on the train. It's not a problem with talking, it's a problem with people screaming into their phones. For some reason people think they need to talk louder, and do, on the cell phone than in normal conversation.
And that doesn't even include when the cell Phone has a bad connection, and they scream even louder, or "Hello?" over and over.
true true
Cell phones should be used for emergency or semi-emergency situations. Otherwise, someone should say when their phone rings, "I'm sorry: I'm on the train. Talk to you later."
People who whine about everything.
LOL. You got me. :)
Yeah, you did but before I get there, what moron came up with this stupid idea??? How are they going to enforce that just thinking about that is idiotic. I bet Mayor Gloomberg is taknig this into consideration.
Continuing from #17 LOL:
18: Subway "preachers" who annoy the hell out of people, giving those pamphlets, although people throw them away anyway. I'm not disrespecting God but people just want to enjoy their commute and don't need more stress.
19: Kids who insist they're cool by holding subway doors and causing unnecessary noise.
20. People who sit directly next to you in a train car with empty seats.
21. Beggars who insist on trying to get change/money from passengers. I feel sorry for them but sometimes they pretend they are poor when they really aren't so things like that discourage me from giving(I MAY give once in a while).
22. People who step on your shoes and know that they did it on purpose, especially if you have new sneakers & boots and thinks its funny. Sometimes I just want to slap those haters
>"4. People who apparently haven’t bathed in 10 to 12 years."<
Especially people who don't wear deoderant(in other words they're MUSTY). Imagine its the summer, the train car's crowded with people that have sweaty underarms/lack of showering with no A/C.......
>"17. Extremely old and decrepit senior citizens who stare at everyone as if they were from another dimension."<
Even younger people who have nothing better to look at. They think looking at others than themselves is good.
20. People who sit directly next to you in a train car with empty seats.
I find that particularly annoying when you are in one of the two seater benchers at the ends of the cars. When the train is crowded - fine. But I do hate it when half the seats on the train are empty, and they decide to sit in the two seater with you -- and link that to #4 in the list - the people who hadn't bathed in 10-12 years.
Yeah (R32,R33,R36,R38,R40/R40M,R42,R62/R62A,R142/R142A,R143) on the ends of the train cars and on 75 footers (R44,R46,R68/R68A) when you sit next to the window, the 2 seaters facing forward/backward, and they sit right next to you :-\.
It is annoying, but you don't exactly own the seat, though.
True, but I only meant it when the train was fairly empty.
I know, but wouldf you mind if it was a hot girl?! Heh.
That's when I like when it happens!....usually not that lucky though...
The hot girls never sit next to me. They always sit next to other women or tall guys.
Dang ... that does it ... we've done fan trips, we've done field trips, I think it's time for a Subtalk Date-a-thon event for Unca John here, guys ... maybe an organized cab blessing or something ...
Give him a guitar and a subway station in the right area and make him sing 'China Girl'. If he get's lucky, great. If he gets money thrown into the guitar case, he can pay the royalties to David Bowie to make it legal. If both happen, even better.
-Robert King
We gotta get him a room, even if it requires a crew key. :)
Hey Kevin,
How's this for a match made in heaven John & Darlene.
That's Qtraindash7 & V Train B47 Bus.
That's rail & bus fan togeeetheeer. >G<
;-) Sparky
Yes, QTrain and V Train 4 EVA!
You're a SICK man, Rico...
Well what you specting, since I'm considered to be a 3/4 toner.
;-) Sparky
John didn't read the previous posts a few weeks ago that explained that it's the first car where all the singles lurk :)
--Mark
I'm always in the first car, never met anybody (though I've seen plenty of mystical ladies in there, usually taken).
I think it's time for a Subtalk Date-a-thon event for Unca John here, guys... maybe an organized cab blessing or something...
Do I get to take my new girlfriend? :-) She and I have been on commuter rail, but it was at off-peak, so the cab was inaccessible...
AEM7
YOU already got some. :)
Hey, that is no fair. Anyway it was a looooong time ago... let's see, that was three girlfriends ago(!)
AEM7
Ah ... but you STILL got some on you, even if it's in the history books now. Our little trainathon here is for the underprivileged who NEVER got any on them. Give until it hurts ... :)
Hey, Kev! What with all of the security in the subway these days (thanks Salaam) the only cab likely available for blessings is the one in heypaul's apartment...LOL!
LAYUP! :)
Layups are not exciting enough. When I was younger (and working for a commuter railroad), Helen and I thought about doing layups, and she was like, "That's no fun", so we headed for an Edinburgh-Glasgow express that was formed of two trainsets -- the intermediate cab is wonderful, the T/O is in the front and the C/R in the back, so...
AEM7
Heh. I was just funnin' ... dunno if Salaam would be interested in HeyPaul's cab though - has no fan window, just the CAB glass. I'm sure that wouldn't do. :)
No room for a tripod, either.
Peace,
ANDEE
Arnine cabs are like that. You got to try it out yourself, barely room in there for a signbox, a jumper cable and a motorperson. All full up there. Transverse cabs on the other hand are larger than many apartments I've had. :)
Yeah, it was like, who left their stuff here? Maybe they ought to swap that destination mechanism with the one in the bulkhead slot on the same end. I could barely turn the crank handle on that sucker.
Well, the cable was the jumper that allows 1689 to tow the LoV around, the sign frame was probably removed because it was likely more jammed than the existing one. Ya never know. I'm just a bit disappointed in myself, having said "no screw with the rollsigns" turns out both Nancy and I were wanking the crank too.
No room for a tripod, either.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maties, bring back the AB's before they were modified into triplets.
I blessed many a cab in me youth.
;-) Sparky
Heh. And we didn't have TRANSVERSE cabs back in OUR day. You learned to be "athletic." :)
A wise guy, ah...:)
WHY SOITENLY! Nyuknyuknyuk. One of my favorite lines was in the movie "Risky Business," "How'd you like to do it on a REAL train?" :)
After all, in the days of air-powered doors, there was more than one way to "assume the position" ... Kama Sutra, TA style. "Do ya wanna be management or hourly?"
LOL!
Moo.
>>>"And we didn't have TRANSVERSE cabs back in OUR day"<<<
Quite contra, I know you guys from the Bronax, would not remember
the BMT MS's, they had TRANSVERSE cabs and were equipped, but
never instituted to operate OPTO. The BMT was inovative,
Rapid & Surface wise.
;-) Sparky
Feh. The HiV IRT cars ALSO did the "transverse" cab number by clever closings of various doors. The fuses were on the off-side behind a glass panel. So probably IRT and BMT were doing the same thing at about the same time. But what I meant by "transverse cab" was the rolling LIVING ROOMS there are these days. Then again, there's nothing on the planet that can beat the "whole living room" of an SD80MAC locomotive. I could LIVE in one. :)
Feh. The HiV IRT cars ALSO did the "transverse" cab number by clever closings of various doors. The fuses were on the off-side behind a glass panel. So probably IRT and BMT were doing the same thing at about the same time. But what I meant by "transverse cab" was the rolling LIVING ROOMS there are these days. Then again, there's nothing on the planet that can beat the "whole living room" of an SD80MAC locomotive. I could LIVE in one. :)
Selkirk: The Gibbs Hi-V's were nicknamed the "Merry Widows" because of that enclosed front vestibule. I would tell you why but since this is a family web-site it will have to wait until later.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Aw GO for it ... apparently there are still some folks who could benefit from the educational value of learning how to MAKE a family. :)
(not to mention the value of arc'in sparc'in and why LoV's came into existence)
Next I suppose you'll want to go to Seashore just to bless the cab on Gibbs 3352.:)
Why? Branford's got 3662, close enough and no trip to the Presidential palace at Kennebunkport needed to get a zitz in the cab. :)
Well, if the cabs are anything like those on the Gibbs cars, why not?:)
Steve: I've only been to Seashore twice and each time I miss seeing the Gibbs. However we do have the Deckroof at Branford complete with manual door controls.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Don't feel bad. I still haven't been to Seashore, althought we did go up to Kennebunkport in 1965 and visited that Franciscan monastary.
Not to mention the pre-M1 LIRR MU's were transverse cabs.
We asked you not to mention that. :)
The hot girls don't sit next to you because you're probably standing in a poodle of drool :)
...wear dark glasses, get a cool leather jacket and stay away from the railfan window. That's the best way to attract a 'hot babe'.
Poodle of drool? You mean the operators are allowed to have seeing-eye dogs now? :)
>>> Poodle of drool? You mean the operators are allowed to have seeing-eye dogs now? <<<
Not the T/O, the railfan with dark glasses! You blow your cover when you press your nose against the railfan window though. :-)
Tom
Did it ever occur to you to take the initiative and sit next to them?
Let's face it John, no girl is going to come up to you and ask you out. (except hookers) You gotta start talking to every girl you come into contact with until you realize they aren't going to bite rejection isn't the end of the world. Supermarket checkouts, waitresses, female bus drivers, letter carriers, etc. Throw enough against the wall and something's gonna stick. You've said in earlier posts you go to the laundrymat alot. Well the next time you're there go up to any girl and ask how to use the dryer. The more you initiate conversations the easier it becomes.
>>> Throw enough against the wall and something's gonna stick <<<
CAUTION! Don't take that too literally John. We don't want to have to bail you out of the Tombs. :-)
Tom
Did it ever occur to you to take the initiative and sit next to them?
Let's face it John, no girl is going to come up to you and ask you out. (except hookers) You gotta start talking to every girl you come into contact with until you realize they aren't going to bite rejection isn't the end of the world. If they turn you down it's their loss & misfortune! Supermarket checkouts, waitresses, female bus drivers, letter carriers, etc. Throw enough against the wall and something's gonna stick. You've said in earlier posts you go to the laundrymat alot. Well the next time you're there go up to any girl and ask how to use the dryer. The more you initiate conversations the easier it becomes.
And don't talk negatively. Don't put yourself down. And no whining about Sea Cliff, LI Bus, or the Oyster Bay Line.
Well shyness aint a good thing for me, that's for sure!
Well, only you can get rid of the shyness. It's all in the head. Just initiate a conversation with every girl you see. Practice makes perfect.
You know, I dont know if that is entirely true. I've been seeing a really shy girl recently, and it actually made me shy. It's really strange. I was never shy before, but everything was so embarrassing with her... LOL, I guess I have a shy streak in me.
AEM7
Well, that's a different story. If she decides to talk to me, then its ok. ;-)
This also happens on the bus, or even in a self service resteruant. There are plenty of seats and they have to sit right by me. Especially annoying if it's screaming kids.
Redbird. let us know when you submit this to the newspares. I'll be waiting for it!
Redbird. let us know when you submit this to the newspapers. I'll be waiting for it!
>>>As an avid cell phone user...<<<
WHY?
Peace,
ANDEE
I have to admit that using a cellphone from the subway has one advantage. On several occasions I have called my wife as the train I was on exited the tunnel at Queensborough Plaza - this gives her enough time to get in her car to meet me at the Ditmars Blvd Station. At other times I have met her at the station when she was on the way home (she calls me on her cell).
Before cellphones we would call each other from payphones before boarding the train in Manhattan but the other would always waste time and gas circling the block at Ditmars waiting for the right train to pull in.
My dad would call mom when he arrive at Merrick station.
They had several routes planned out through Merrick.
He would say "I'm walking the red route" or the "green route"
And then mom would walk out to meet him and then they would walk someother way until they got home. That way they each got in a two mile walk every day.
Now that dad is retired and living in the Pocconos (Hi Pelham Bay Dave!) they can be seen walking around the back roads to Wiss Market and back.
: ) Elias
Do you mean Weis Markets?
--Brian
Also, people who stand on or in front of crowded stairs (from street to station) while gabbing away. Get out of the way on to the sidewalk or go into the station!!
18. Sailors who think they need not pay to ride NYC Transit!!
Wait a minute, I'm a Sailor!! LOL!! :)
Cell phones shouldn't be banned; people who talk loudly on them should be. Why do cellphone users need to be voluble?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Because of the sidetone. It's a proven fact that people talk louder on cell phones than on land lines.
When you talk on a land line, you hear a faint version of your voice in the earpiece (similar to what you'd hear if your ear didn't have this big plastic thing butted against it), and this helps you talk at the "right" volume. On a cell phone there's no sidetone, and psychologically you feel that the other person can't hear you and you talk louder. It's an unconscious feedback loop.
Of course someone might feel that they can't be heard with all the background noise, especially if the mouthpiece isn't butted against their lips (which is the case unless you have an '80s phone that weighs 5 pounds and is 12 inches long...)
>>> Because of the sidetone. It's a proven fact that people talk louder on cell phones than on land lines. <<<
This is just with inexperienced cell phone users. In Los Angeles, around the courthouses, you virtually never hear a loud voice talking on a cell phone, although in the hallways you see many in use. Most cell phone users are speaking in barely audible tones, certainly no louder than those speaking to each other in person. I was riding on a downtown shuttle bus and saw a man using the earpiece with a microphone on the wire leading to the phone two seats away from me (perimeter seating). He looked like he was mumbling to himself under his breath. At first I thought he was singing along to music on a walkman until he dialed a number on the phone.
Tom
Very true, Tom. But there are enough inexperienced cell phone users who haven't figured out the side tone thing to make up for those who know better.
But there are enough inexperienced cell phone users who haven't figured out the side tone thing to make up for those who know better.
And there are enough of us out there who have used cell phones for years (and learned to be a bit more quiet - relatively speaking, since I'm known to be rather loud regardless of what kind of phone I'm on) who hadn't ever heard of sidetones before the explanation offered on this board. At least now I understand the phenomenon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have one problem with the whole thing.
Of all things, you call Bloomberg a COMMUNIST?
Do you even know what a communist is and what one believes in, or were you just taught that communist is a good universal insult?
If you want to call Bloomberg repressive, then call him a fascist.
May I add to your list:
-People who sit in the aisle seat and block the window seat- or put their belongings on it- on R44s, 46s and 68s with their belongings when the car is full of standees, and become belligerent when someone asks to sit there.
-People who block the doors from the OUTSIDE of the car while trying to figure out if this is their stop or train.
-People (usually women, but to protect myself from being labelled sexist, some older men as well) who righteously and sanctimoniously demand you relinquish their seat to them because they have a God-given right to a seat and you don't.
-People who can't be bothered to brush their teeth, or at least take a Cert, before getting on the train in the morning.
-People with at least thirty fingers who must clip the nails on all of them.
-People who, after finishing their drink, must (a) loudly pop and bend the can or plastic bottle; or (b) loudly click the Snapple cap.
-People who (usually while blocking the doors or holding up the token line) ask vague questions like "How do I get to Broadway?" or "Which train goes downtown?" They don't have a specific address, cross street or even borough which might make it easier to direct them.
-People who ask you directions and then argue that you're wrong.
-People who never adjust to permanent service changes, no matter how many years ago they took effect. To this day it's possible to ride a C to 168th or an E to Jamaica Center and watch someone lapse into total confusion and/or panic.
-People (usually teenage girls) who not only crack their gum louder than a firecracker, but look around with a smug expression that appears to say "I'm annoying the crap out of you, aren't I? GOOD!"
People who run run run to catch that train, only to come to a screeching halt the instant they've cleared the doors, and then appear offended when I careen into them. (Sorry, my brakes must need adjustment.)
People who block the doors from Brooklyn to the Bronx and mutter rude remarks as I push them out of the way to get on and again to get off a few stops later. (It's a door, not a wall. Unless you're getting off the very next time that door opens, please find somewhere else to lean.)
My biggest problem on the trains are baby carriages, bicycles, shopping carts, etc on the train during rush hours. Whereas many other cities have some sort of ban on these, NY does not. I would recommend that the MTA prohibit these things during rush hours, say 7-9 in the morning and 4:30-6:30 in the evening, or limit them to the last car of each train.
Do you really think the MTA officially prohibiting something will mean it won't happen anymore? Right now there's a prohibition on the subway of panhandling, disruptive behavior (preachers, anyone?), amplified sound devices, taking up more than one seat and dogs that aren't seeing-eye and not in a carrier.
A few weeks ago on the L train, a young woman had a poodle on her lap. Two police officers passing through the car stopped, smiled, petted the animal and continued to the next car. Neither one said anything along the lines of "Excuse me, Miss, but dogs aren't allowed on the subway unless they're in a carrier."
If the existing prohibitions aren't enforced or taken seriously, how can any new ones be added?
I'm pretty sure there already is a restriction. It's posted on most if not all buses somewhere near the bus driver. Not that anybody obeys it, {if they're lucky enough to notice it.} I once told somebody almost exactly where it was and they said they couldn't find it.
I must have followed a wrong link and ended up on the "Sound Off" page of "On the (Bi)Level", because this all sounds eerily familiar. :^)
http://metrarail.com/OTBL/october_2002.pdf
"6. Anyone, and I mean anyone, including priests, wearing a backpack."
Well what do you expect them to do with it?
WTOP Radio (Washington, www.wtopnews.com) just reported that the FBI is issuing a general terrorist warning against transit systems in particular. According to detained Al Queda prisoners, terrorist are planning on targeting bridges, tracks, and engines with the intention to cause derailments and widespread destruction. I don't know how much WTOP will cover this because of the sniper coverage, but I am sure other radio stations will bring the news, too.
Here is a link to the story:
Click here
I have a question.
If these Al Qaeda prisoners are being detained, how are they privy to current possible attack plans? I mean, these bozos in Gitmo could just say anything they want about possible attacks and snicker when these general warnings are issued.
How credible is this information from the detainees? Hell, if they've been captured since December or whenever last year, it's not like they have telepathic minds and can communicate with other free roaming members. I mean cmon now.
Clearly the FBI believes it is credible enough to tell the media. What is the worst that can happen? Your commute is disrupted to ensure that everything is secure? It can't be worse than being killed if something does happen.
This is more of a case of "covering my ass". Obviously they didn't think WTC was too much of a credible thing to tell the public, look what happened. Now every little itty bitty thing they are telling us, and I'm not saying some of it may be wrong or we should just ignore it, but it's becoming common life, sadly.
Maybe we didn't take away their Cellphones ;-)
Curious ... the railroads were ALREADY on high alert from earlier this year, wonder what kind of election time game Ridge is playing THIS time? But that's the reason why we called ahead when we took BiGEdIRTmanL out to the Selkirk yards, furnished ID, car plate numbers and general descriptions of each of us so they wouldn't get twitchy and welcome us on the property when we went out to the yards last Sunday. You just DON'T go near railroad property without them knowing you're coming and permission to approach granted AHEAD of time. But this "warning" is OLD ... VERY old ... I don't get it other than a PR ploy. :(
And many of the railroad people I know travel armed.
Oh no! The towel heads are going to attack! We're all doomed! Better change the bed sheets!
Okay, that was my dose of sarcasm for today.
After having to put up with more than a year of all this paranoid bedwetting coward crap, I have come to a conclusion that this fear of terrorism is not really anything new. It is, instead, the fourth and newest installment of basic, gut-level fears that have come to define American society. And just like the existing three fears, it is largely irrational, or at least greatly exaggerated.
These basic fears are as follows:
Fear No. 1 - Women are afraid of men.
Examples: Domestic-violence and stalking laws.
Fear No. 2 - Adults are afraid of teenagers.
Examples: Security guards in high schools, fears of riding the subways when schools are getting out.
Fear No. 3 - Whites are afraid of minorities.
Example: "You won't catch me in that neighborhood after dark!"
And now for the newest installment:
Everyone else is afraid of Muslims.
Examples: FBI "warnings," Transportation Security Administration, "homeland defense," National Guard in Penn Station, etc. etc.
I am personally afraid of any religious radical/fundamentalist.
"fears of riding the subways when schools are getting out"
IMHO, exaggerated but NOT groundless.
1) I remember riding CTA buses home from high school and some kids WERE rowdy and disruptive. My cousin, who went to the same (Catholic, boys-only) high school told stories from his school days of the kids trying to rock the bus by moving in unison from one side of the bus to the other. And that's not counting the sheer overcrowding issue of 1000+ kids (more in my cousin's time) all trying to catch the very soonest bus home at a location served by two bus routes.
2) When I went to college -- Loyola at the station of the same name on the Red Line -- I sometimes traveled when the local public high school let out. On an eight-car train, most of the high schoolers stuffed themselves on the last one or two cars to crush loads so they could all ride together. Fine by me -- I actually walked up the platform a couple of car lengths and ended up with a car that had no more passengers than normal for a mid-day train.
In short, even if all high-school kids behaved like perfect angels, the "gotta catch the first bus/gotta ride with my pals" overcrowding effect alone would encourage commuters with discretion over when they travel to pick a different time to ride.
I have a definite concern, which could be called fear, of people who dislike my way of life, or want my property, sufficiently that they might do me violence.
This includes a certain percentage of young adult males in high crime neighborhoods, a certain number of Americans of Western European heritage who espouse radical views, and a certain number of Muslims.
Despite this, I am fully aware that most young adult males in high crime neighborhoods, most right wing radicals, and most Muslims wish me no harm at all. Unfortunately, most is not all, so I feel a need for protection from those who do wish me harm.
You forgot to mention all those people who are afraid of the subway.
Amen. And who'd think that our OWN politicians and our OWN media would be doing the WORK of the terrorists so the terrorists can kick back and watch "Wag the dog" for the umpteenth time on their VCRs and not have to lift a finger?
Fear No. 1 - Women are afraid of men.
Examples: Domestic-violence and stalking laws.
Unfortunately, there is a substantial basis for this one. It is only within the last 100 years that women have begun to be treated as equals under the law in this country (and indeed, in many cultures they still are not). Still, many men feel it is acceptable to abuse, either physically or psychologically (or both), their spouse or significant other. (This can go both ways, but it is much less common for a woman to abuse a man; it also occurs in same-sex relationships, to what extent I have no idea.) These laws, regrettably, are very much necessary.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#2, fear of teenagers - Are security guards common in high schools now? They don't have security guards in high schools here, but they've had hall monitors since they early 1990s at least, but they're not security guards. Paid duty police officers were put in high schools on at least one specific occasion which I personally remember.
However, I've been on buses, subway and streetcars often enough to overhear other people, especially seniors, complaining about vehicles filling up with students at the end of the day and at lunch, although not as severely. A shopping mall near two rather large high schools posts one, sometimes two, security guards in the food court at lunch time. In all the times I've walked through that area to get to the subway station I've never seen anything happen, though. What I might do on some of my free days is see if I can determine if/what TTC security does anything regularly at school dismissal time.
But, I agree, the fear of teenagers is a bit much, like the other three.
-Robert King
#2, fear of teenagers - Are security guards common in high schools now? They don't have security guards in high schools here, but they've had hall monitors since they early 1990s at least, but they're not security guards. Paid duty police officers were put in high schools on at least one specific occasion which I personally remember.
Canada's probably different, but as far as I know most U.S. high schools have security people these days. Maybe some smaller rural schools don't, but most others do.
At my school, we have a campus officer who is armed.
For anyone who hasn't been there in the last week, the plywood boards were taken down and art(?) has appeared in their stead.
The question is, can anyone explain it to me? =)
In other subway art news, the mosaics along the down escalator at the SI Ferry end of Whitehall St are finally being installed (they're not done yet, I think 2 or 3 of the panels are in). To my disappointment, they're the same as the ones that were installed along the up escalator a couple of years ago. For some reason I thought they would be different. As before, they show the history of downtown. They did go ahead and install the "present-day view" with the World Trade Center towers.
I was on Broadway the other day. Is that the station with the "art" that looks like little UFO's? I forgot if that was 28th or 23rd. It looks like little space aliens ior UFO's or something.
I have heard on a "JUST IN" news report on CNN that the FBI alerts railroads in the U.S. from possible threats by Al Qaeda. They suspect pictures from Al Qaeda of engines and cars, and they might be targeting specifically those carrying hazardous materials. The terrorists most likely is in favor of economical strongholds by rail. No specific targets are known.
The terror threat against America will remain at Elevated, and more information will be received and reported if any.
What are economical points in the railroad industry in the U.S.?
Any other key information about railroading terrorists might likely target?
Please do not delete. There are some questions I want to have answered also.
Thank You.
It's OLD NEWS, those warnings were issued LAST YEAR and repeated several times during THIS one. Particular alerts for yards, sidings where there are chemicals, bridges (which is why fans have been prohibited from bridges for a while now) and particularly tunnel entries. Some of you might remember all those cops stationed at tunnel entrances on the river crossings ...
Something else as an indication of this as a PR stunt ... New York has ALWAYS been on "orange alert" while the rest of the country has waivered between yellow and orange. But this is NOT new ...
New York has ALWAYS been on "orange alert" while the rest of the country has waivered between yellow and orange.
Shouldn't that be amber alert? This alert color stuff is a bit silly, IMHO...
Amber alert is for child kidnappings. The color codes work better than saying "there is a chance of a terrorist attack" and causing general fear. It is wonderful to know terrorists might strike on a day when I am taking an airplane somewhere on a cheap, no frills airline (Southwest and this happened back in February, nothing did happen that day in the end).
With Code Red, I would simply ignore it. It is for an imminent attack or if an attack is in process and I have a feeling we will only see it in the latter situation. As far as I know, NYC has always been on the same level as the rest of the country.
For anyone who ever shows up here at our place, we have a genuine "Tom Ridge Homeland Security Alert light festival" with a pair of subway globes in our atrium that do all the approved colors at the throw of a switch. But New York has NEVER been at "level yellow" ...
Cost us plenty, it did, it did ... but soon we'll have Martha Stewart on the federal payroll and I'm sure she'll do a much better job of color coordinatin' ... And no, "amber alert" is Paturkey's patented child protection system, they had to go to Orange at the federal level to avoid confusion. :)
Shouldn't that be amber alert? This alert color stuff is a bit silly, IMHO...
No, Orange Alert is correct.... Anita Bryant is coming up to bash....
:^) Elias
I don't know why they put blue between green and yellow. To be true to the spectrum, blue should be on the other side of green from yellow (since green is between blue and yellow, and looks like a bit of both). I would reserve blue for a hypothetical "no risk" condition (green is "low risk, then "guarded risk", etc), and then you could have a yellow and amber.
In traffic and transit signals, I'd use it as less restrictive than green. So not only "proceed", but "do not stop". It could be at certain intersections to keep traffic moving, and in transit, blue lanterns, banks of light, flags would signify "don't stop", whether at stations because they are closed for any reason (such as Cortlandt St.), and maintainers and work gangs on the tracks could use it to signal to the t/o that they are there, and to blow the horn to let them know that he's coming, but if there's enough clearance that they do not really need him to slow down (which occurs often, such as platform work), he can keep going at normal speed. Now, they use yellows, and you have to slow down (whether they are way clear of the tracks or not), and the way the flaggers often wave their hands looks like "keep going, get out of our way", but the rule then is to go slow.
Blue now represents wayside telephone/alarm/extinguisher, but as it does not tell you to stop or slow down, it would harmonize with this new meaning. This would help speed things up.
New York has ALWAYS been on "orange alert" while the rest of the country has waivered between yellow and orange.
Shouldn't that be amber alert? This alert color stuff is a bit silly, IMHO...
Hope to see some SubTalkers on the Route 23 Trip this Sunday, October 27. Even though we can't go all the way downtown, it still should be a good trip. Hopefully, we'll avoid stalled U-Hauls and paltry power availability this time!
I would love to go , but as I posted on Sub-Talk , my wife of 54 years passed away and we will have the service Monday.
Chuck Greene
I know. I was so sorry to read of her passing.
When you're up to it, I bet you, me chuchubob and other Philly area SubTalkers could do some railfanning on our own. I've yet to ride much of routes 101 and 102, and I'm always up for a trip on regional rail lines.
Maybe next Spring sometime.
-KP
Hey Pete, that sounds like a great idea. The springtime would be ideal for that. I'd be up for any Saturday or Sunday. Keep in touch.
Chuck Greene
Sparky & Big Lou are coming from Brooklyn. Can't miss us little
guys, 6'3" & 6'8". See ya on Sunday. ;-)
I take it it is well past the time to get tickets? I let it slip my mind with school and all. Really is too bad too, I just had midterms, and this weekend is kinda empty. I take it that I could never show up at Germantown depot and expect to buy a ticket there, right?
If you act quickly, you may be able to contact Gerhard Salomon from The Rockhill Trolley Museum to get your name in and bring the $30 with you that day. Last correspondence I got from RTM, they were still looking to fill the second PCC. I'm not sure what the policy might be, but it's worth a shot! The info is on nycsubway.org here (scroll down a bit).
My position is somewhat similar to Mr Dobner's. As I told Sparky previously when he first stated that he and Lou from Brooklyn would be riding the trip, my weekends are very busy for the next couple of months. I won't know until Sunday morning whether I can get out or not. If it turns out that I can, I was considering showing up (early, not at 10:15 like last time) to say hi to Lou and Sparksky and snap some photos. And if I could utilize the whole day, I'd inquire as to whether I could buy a ticket as a walk-up. Since you pointed out that the second car will be used, I suspect the chance of the latter has improved.
Anyway, I hope to see yiz Sunday morning, if not all day.
Bob
Lou and Sparky are great folks, WELL worth the effort if you can do it. One of the BEST things about Branford (trains are cool and all, but they were *work* to me) is the PEOPLE. You've got two of the very finest (not that the rest aren't JUST as cool) headed that way.
I'd bang out SICK if I could make it. :)
Lou and Sparky are great folks, WELL worth the effort if you can do it.
I know Lou and Sparky (and Keystone Pete). That's why I'm going to TRY to get there Sunday morning. Not to mention seeing a couple PCC cars.
:-) from the li'l guys.
I know from the history books that some older "Els" were upgraded to subway service. What, exactly did than entail? New structures, or just new signals and other equipment? Also, which lines were upgraded.
Depends on what you consider an "upgrade"....
The demise of the els resulted from the technologies of the times...steam was tolerated until they were electrified, the noise
was tolerated until tunneling (and in many cases, disruption of surface traffic) became a cost-effective alternative. In these times, IMHO, technologies could once again prove the els as a viable alternative (composite brakes, rubber wheels such as used in Paris as remedies for noise), especially as tunneling becomes less cost-effective.
But I'm a flat-out el fan, so much of what I'd like to see (like an el in Manhattan again) is just wishful thinking, although I'd like it to be otherwise.....
There are a few els in Manhattan, an unused line, a MetroNorth line and an IRT line
what's unused in Manhattan? If you're talking about the West Side, that's used by Amtrak.
I think he's referring to the "High Line" down in the village ...
Must be. Of course it's the same line that Amtrak uses. It's just the part of it south of Penn Station -- which part has been OOS for years.
Also, which lines were upgraded.
I know of some. The original el on Broadway (Brooklyn) was built sometime around 1888. Around 1915 or so the Broadway el was rebuilt, along with part of the Myrtle EL from Broadway to Wyckoff (and extended to Fresh Pond Road.) So that is one of the els that were original els rebuilt to subway standards.
The original els could not take the weight of the heavier subway cars. That is the reason the lower part of the Myrtle met it's demise, it was not rebuilt to dual contract standards like the northern part of the Myrtle el (M train).
I think some parts of the Fulton El were also upgraded.
Here's a question that I'm not sure of the answer: When they added the third (express) tracks to the Second, Third and Ninth Ave. Els in Manhattan, would that also be considered an upgrade?
A good part of the Fulton El was indeed upgraded, and could have run heavier cars.
As for the Manhattan els with the express track added, that's a very good question. Adding the express track, and with the extra trains that then ran on the el, would have made the els heavier. I would assume the supporting beems would have had to have been reinforced?
Parts of some of the Manhattan els underwent multiple upgradings, including track additions and physical reconstruction. The final 9th Avenue el that ran up Greenwich Street was notably different from the original single-track surbside structure.
What about the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El? It was able to run heavy steel IRT cars.
What about the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El? It was able to run heavy steel IRT cars.
The portion south of Fordham Road was not up to dual-contracts standards. While it did run the heavy subway cars after the Q types were removed (1958?) to the BMT, the structure itself was in terrible shape by the early 70's because of it.
The portion above Bronx park was built to dual contracts, the el SOUTH of Fordham was original structure with modifications over the years. That was the REASON why the LoV's remained on it and R12's replaced them. Newer equipment was found to be too heavy for the structure.
I seem to re call that the Myrtle Av Q cars once ran on the 3rd Av El
From what I can remember they were restricted to the express track and used for rush Hour service. the reason for the restriction was because of their weight and also the weight of the trucks. If any one else can add to this or correct me if I am wrong I would appreciate it John
The Qs were refitted with IRT maximum traction trucks on the 3rd, which cut their weight but also their performance. I don't know if they were ever used in local service, but they had to run on the local tracks in the reverse rush direction. Perhaps they ran light in that service, I don't know.
Paul it was before my time and what you have said does sound like what I have read in the past. I use to ride the Q's on Myrtle ave.
I was probably around 6 years old when I first spotted them. Me and my brother use to sit on the street corner of Adlephi st and Willougbhy ave and watch the trains pass on the el a block away. you can never miss the sound of those Q cars.
I miss the Qs, but at the time I didn't much like them, because they were way inferior in performance and "fun" to the gate cars they replaced.
Maybe if I thought of them as orphan 1200s I would have liked them better... :)
I loved riding the Myrtle Av line, but when My aunt first took me out to broadway and there i found I beleive the r 16's on the jamaica line, well I feel in love allover again. I use to take that line as a kid out to cresent street to my uncle's house. afterwards the Myrtle ave seemed alot smaller but still I am glad I had both lines to enjoy as a kid
Where did your uncle live near Crescent St?
I beleive we walked down past atlantic av and over to liberty ave some where near the the fire house. That is about all I can remember, but I will ask them the next time I talk to them. They are still around but quite old
I used to live just off Fulton and Crescent.
I guess the el had already been removed from Liberty Ave (1956?) when you were visiting there.
All I remember of the Fulton El was what i saw in pictures and the section in East New York that they shifting the manhattan bound L train on to the old fulton line near Atlantic ave. At one time I use to ride the eastern leg of the fulton El from Lefferts Blvd to county line and into the subway. But you are probably correct about the Fulton Line being demolished by 1956
I moved from New York in 1957,
There used to be an el Station at Liberty and Crescent on the Fulton el. It was an old fashioned side platform station.
I really wish I could have traveled on some of the els that are now gone but it was just before my time. but from what i do remember, i beleive the section of the Jamaica El from Alabama av to Cresent st is an unimproved el or at least some portions of it. I still remember the Myrtle av El and remember seeing the remains of the branchs for the LExington, Park Av line near the lexington but on the down town side and of course the 5 th av line at navy street near Flatbush ave. that was my original neighborhood near downtown before moving to Rosedale in 1963. I have since moved to Florida in 1986
Reconstruction varied from minor structural changes and realignment to virtual rebuilding.
Relatively minor work (considering the age of the el) was done on the Old Main Line (Lex) between Alabama Avenue and Cypress Hills, largely involving the doubling of some of the steel spans and other reinforcement. The curve at Crescent/Fulton was eased at the same time. At the other end was the Fulton Street structure from Nostrand Avenue to and through Atlantic Avenue and part way up Pitkin Avenue. The structure over Fulton from Nostrand east was substantially rebuilt under traffic.
The to-be-demolished structure over Van Sinderin is considered the original el, but it's uncertain how much original steel (or should I say cast iton) remains.
Els with significant rebuilding in Brooklyn from the original include (off the top of my head), Broadway and Lex Line to Cypress Hills, the parts of the Fulton Line I mentioned. and the Myrtle Avenue Line from east of Broadway to Wyckoff. Would you include the Franklin from Park Place, since it is a recent rebuilding?
If you want to really nitpik, I suppose you might count the Sea View trestle on Coney Island, since it was elevated, and there is an elevated there now on approximately the same route, but one did not directly replace the other.
Other lines improved under the Dual Contracts were elevateds built to replace surface lines.
(Els with significant rebuilding in Brooklyn from the original include (off the top of my head), Broadway and Lex Line to Cypress Hills, the parts of the Fulton Line I mentioned. and the Myrtle Avenue Line from east of Broadway to Wyckoff. Would you include the Franklin from Park Place, since it is a recent rebuilding? Other lines improved under the Dual Contracts were elevateds built to replace surface lines.)
Sounds like the BMT Broadway line, and part of the Myrtle Ave line, are the only upgraded Els out there?
Sounds like the BMT Broadway line, and part of the Myrtle Ave line, are the only upgraded Els out there?
That's about it. To try to be historically accurate (depending on what you're looking for in your original question) I suppose I would include the connector to and over the Williamsburg Bridge, since it predates the Dual Contracts, and tha aforementioned Franklin improvment, which was orignally fixed up 1924 to accomodate subway equipment. Culver was originally used by the elevated division, but was always built to subway specs.
Oh, and you need to include the entire ENY Yard-Broadway Junction-Atlantic Avenue area (except the 14th Street Line connector) up to Pitkin Avenue. Parts of this are new, part rebuilt, from the original Manhattan Junction, also done under traffic, including some of the original structure being jacked up.
Uh, I think you meant to say "downgraded" to subways. Because I don't consider subways an improvement over elevated structures.
I was hanging out on the 4/5 platform at Atlantic, hoping the remaining R-29 trainset would pull in. I wasn't paying much attention to the R-62A's and R-142's on the local platforms, until I saw something red approaching on the Manhattan-bound track.
A 4 or 5 running local? No, a 2! My hopes were dashed as I approached the crowd slowly moving toward the staircase and realized there was no chance I'd be able to make it through the underpass and back up in time to catch the 2. Along came a savior: a humble 4 train, which carried me to Nevins, where the 2 graciously opened its doors and invited me to board.
Although the southbound run is more exhilirating, I was quite pleased to have the opportunity to stand at a Redbird railfan window on the express all the way from Chambers to 96th. I haven't had that opportunity in over a year.
Coming into 96th we had a minor adventure. The signal halfway up the platform was stuck at red. After waiting a minute or two, the T/O obtained authorization to key by -- only the stop arm still didn't go down, and the T/O stopped just in time, with the stop arm already out of view. He went down to the trackbed and, indeed, it was still up; he hooked it down, and a signal maintainer who just happened to be there took over after we left.
I got off at 3rd Avenue to jump ahead on an express so I could get a photo at E180. Then I got back on the 2 and rode it to the last stop. I was planning on riding it back down to Park Place, but it was taken out of service at 241st.
North motor 8891, south motor 9137.
And, yes, the R-29 trainset was running -- it passed me on my way back down. I'll have to catch up with it next week.
Do you think that if he ran the red signal and tripped he would get written up for it and treated as if he ran an automatic?
Probably not, since he had gotten authorization to key by, but I don't know. He seemed quite relieved that he had stopped in time.
You are soooooooooo lucky! Until you scan the photo (you need a digital camera, btw), this should make do:
--Brian
I rode one of those, too, from Sutter-Rutland to Atlantic. But I'm afraid it's not a 2.
No, but it is the right car number.
--Brian
If that redbird were permanent, then the 2/5 could at least restore that special interline run that allowed a #5 train to run Bronx local to E 238 Street outside of the PM rush.
You know, I had a dream last night.
I dreamt that I found myself on a Redbird 6 train. It was signed as both a 6 and an 8 -- underneath each 6 bullet was an 8 bullet. (Don't ask me how -- it's a dream!) I got off to wait for an express so I could get a head-on shot in the Bronx, but then I realized that (a) I was already in the Bronx and (b) the Bronx express was running the other way, so I had lost my chance. I was going to wait for it to come back, but I woke up before anything else happened.
I'm totally serious. I really had this dream. The very next day, I found myself on a Redbird 2 train, and I got off in the Bronx to pass it on an express, but if I had missed it it wouldn't have come back. (But why the 8?)
Whoa. You're really in this deep. I've never had a dream about subways. Well, at least that I can remember.
--Brian
You mean this 8 train?
I saw the green 8 bullet on the sixth car of a downtown 3 train a few days ago. Maybe some day it will be used.
No, that one I've seen. I mean an 8 on a Redbird, somehow displayed below the 6. Don't ask.
Does anyone know when the 2003 Vacation pick will start? In other words, when does the #1 man select his vacation? Thanx.
Well, here in the A division, we finish picking tomorrow. I thought you guys in the B were doing the same.
In the A division one must avoid the certain birthdays observed in the East. CI Peter
It's scheduled for 11/4.
Tank yew.
You get vacation time??? What I can get is from being aloof and scheduling around Engles/Marx/Lenin/Stalin/Krueschev birthdays. Some never heard of 'Labor Day.' Is Christmas an approved holiday format in CED or must I go by Kristmus? CI Peter
No, but you DO get Festivus off, so long as you snap a pole off a redbird. :)
He wears a RED suit, likely union made and redistributes wealth to children. He is at least a socailist.
INS already got him. Ken Lay will be handing out Imclone stock to the kiddies this kissmoose ...
B DIV picks after A Div for a change!! I picked VAC already nothing good.
Here in the A divison we just finish picking vacation and holiday jobs. I picked on Monday. BTW, Im on vacation this week. I picked vacation on my vacation :(. I guess you guys(B division) should start by next week.
I'm not sure about this -- another train was obstructing my view -- but I think I saw orange stripes on a 9 train this afternoon. I didn't catch the car numbers, but the first digit was 1. Was a train of R-62's (not R-62A's) run on the 9 today? Why? I know there's been talk of moving the R-62's to the 3 -- is the 1/9 another possible destination?
David,
A few times I thought I saw orange strips on Broadway locals (I refuse to use that number above 8). But I think it was the lighting, at times the red strips seem to be orange. I think there are former Pelham R-62As on Broadway with 1xxx numbers.
I know this is a little off topic but I saw some interesting things in the subways today since I took a long bus/subway trip[I'll post that in Bustalk]. I also got to ride a Redbird train on the 5 today, R33 8889.
Here's what I saw:
4 sets of R68A's on the (Q)
3 sets of redbirds on the 5, still going strong :-)
At least 9 sets of Redbirds at E 180 St yard
R142's on the 4 {7711-7720}
R142's on the 5{6766-6770,didn't pay attention to the other 5#'s}
R62A's 1771-1775 on the 9 :-O coupled to 2411-2415
To David J. Greenberger: this might be the set of the 1xxx series you saw recently so your claim is valid & I backed it up. BTW, it had red stripes.
Coney Island yard hasn't been really caring about the differences between R68 and R68As with the line assignments. They tossed back and forth between the Q, W, and N Lines.
I know this is a little off topic but I saw some interesting things in the subways today since I took a long bus/subway trip[I'll post that in Bustalk]. I also got to ride a Redbird train on the 5 today, R33 8889.
Here's what I saw:
4 sets of R68A's on the (Q)
3 sets of redbirds on the 5, still going strong :-)
At least 9 sets of Redbirds at E 180 St yard
R142's on the 4 {7711-7720}
R142's on the 5{6766-6770,didn't pay attention to the other 5#'s}
R62A's 1771-1775 on the 9 :-O coupled to 2411-2415
To David J. Greenberger: this might be the set of the 1xxx series you saw recently so your claim is valid & I backed it up. BTW, it had red stripes.
I saw a R 142 consist that I thought hadn't arrived yet at Brooklyn Bridge on the 5 today. The first half was a pair of 77xx's and the 2nd half was 70xx's.No it wasnt a 142A because the side destination sign blinked from Lexington Av Exp to E'Chestr-Dyre not changing straight like you see on the 6.I thought that when 7000-7210 was finished being delivered then the 2nd option order from Bombardier 77XX-78xx would start to be delivered yet here they are already much to my suprise. Oh yes expect to keep seeing Redbirds on the 5 for quite a long time to come.I was talking to a T/O today while riding the 5 from Dyre-Brooklyn Bridge and he said that the only reason why the R29's and 33's are still around is because the 142's keep breaking down too much.So if this continues then those R33's just might stay around a little longer.
Yes but I wonder how much longer they could last. Keep running the cars with true quality :-). The Redbirds will live for a few years longer!
This is something all here oughta read, particularly Mr. Salaam Allah!! BE CAREFUL EVEN MORE NOW WHERE YOU GO AND PHOTOGRAPH TRAINS!
You can be railroad police ain't gonna be playing around now, if you thought they weren't already!! And to my fellow transit and rail people, please be alert to anything that doesn't look cool!! I mean don't anyone be paranoid, just be more vigilant!! Here's the link:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel02/nlets102402.htm
We got it the first two times. Please try reading SubTalk before posting.
EXCUSE ME JERSEY MIKE I JUST GOT ON HERE AND I DIDN'T NOT KNOW IT HAD BEEN POSTED ALREADY!! MAYBE UNLIKE YOU I HAVE A LIFE AND DON'T LIVE ON MY COMPUTER AND READ EVERY LITTLE THING!! CHILL OUT!! >:-(
And for your information I can post and write whatever I like, so if you got a problem keep it to yourself. I don't ever see you telling anyone else here about multiple posts on the same topics. So before you spout-off know the facts. Facts are I didn't read the whole board because I just jumped on here. Next fact is that I didn't know if anyone knew about it, so I posted it!! If you got a problem with that to hell with you!! I can post whatever I like as many times as I like, and there ain't nothing you can do about it!! So chill out and save that mess for other people who care!!
Three time's a charm and you posted with a nearly identical subject to the last thread. It takes 30 seconds to scroll down and you know maybe see if someone else had previously posted a hot news item.
Listen I can talk about whatever I like here!!! If you read it already then disregard what I wrote.....simple!!! I don't have time nor are you anyone to me that I have to explain myself to!! Thank you!! Please talk about something and drop this stupidity!!
Can't we all just get along?
The beatings shall now commence. I saw NOTHING. :)
That damn extra list can make anybody delirious!
A 10 !!!!!
PARTICULAR attention to bridges, tunnel entries and ESPECIALLY yard leads. If you're on the road, check the iron next to you for broken points, missing plates and anything funny. But then, most folks working for railroads were told all this months ago ...
The specifics this time (same as last time) was attempts to derail can be expected, locomotive sabotage and sabotage to switches and bridges ... just so's folks know what to look for who aren't railroaders ...
Hey be sure to tell Mr Salaam Allah to watch where he goes even more now!! lol giving his track (no puns) record for attracting trouble while out doing his thing on the rails!! :-) As for the track maintenance thing I see so many defects to tracks daily (loose plates and spikes, badly deteriorated or rotten ties, stuff like that), so it could be hard to tell between typical track defects and something that was done intentionally. The railroad companies' respective track departments and structure departments (including ALL MTA rail agencies) need to be more vigilant and more quick to act on repairs to defects!!
Well, Salaam would do himself a *HUGE* favor by losing that damned vest ... I'm sure that sticking out like a lighthouse in the middle of the Pacific was doing our buddy few favors. Japanese philosophy - "the nail that sticks out will get hammered down."
Sorry to insult the old choochoo line, but what they're supposedly looking for ain't gonna give them their yayas on a TA sized scale, the word is they wanna dump a few hundred tank cars and light 'em up or something of that scale. With the speeds the subway runs at today, ain't gonna get enough damage to make it worth their while. But it'll STILL be a bad location to be caught walking the tracks in without a badge.
And most railroads were smart enough to put in cameras that ARE watched.
Well I can say I know a few spots in the system terrorist tampering can cause some major damage and injuries if not deaths to people, so what you said regarding speeds and damage is not necessarily true, but still people have to be vigilant.
Absolutely ... my point though is that what was described in the federal information with respect to SABOTAGE is much more likely to occur on freight railroads than on the subways. At least in THIS advisory ...
And the REAL problem is that the more the FBI and Government cry "WOLF!!" the less people will pay any attention.
How topical information can come out of a source that's been locked up in sunny Cuba, out of direct touch with al-Queda is beyond me.
Looks like the FBI (and Shrub) needs to stay out of the giggle water.
>>> How topical information can come out of a source that's been locked up in sunny Cuba, out of direct touch with al-Queda is beyond me <<<
It is certainly possible that someone there told about a planned operation with a particular code name, and just recently that code name has been intercepted several times by the electronic snoops.
Would you believe not all intelligence agencies are totally staffed by Maxwell Smart types?
Tom
Date: Sept 12, 2001
To: 'W' Bush
From: US Spys
Message: Missed it by that much.
"Republicans are respected for their ability to run a military while democrats are respected for their ability to run an ECONOMY" ... I hate to be cynical, but when an election's coming you play the poker hand that works. :(
So that wasn't Salaam causing trouble on the Q line this morning at Brighton Beach :) (news reports said police activity due to a trespasser).
--Mark
The only crime Salaam is guilty of is not filling out his census form (don't think I have forgotten Mr. LA -- it wasn't senseless at all).
In any event, my wife and I are now making a point of never taking the same train. One of us has to survive for the kids.
"In any event, my wife and I are now making a point of never taking the same train."
Do you and your wife ever ride in the same car? That would be a far higher risk. If you do it frequently it's probably something like 1 in 20,000 per year that you will both be killed or permanently disabled.
(Do you and your wife ever ride in the same car? That would be a far higher risk. If you do it frequently it's probably something like 1 in 20,000 per year that you will both be killed or permanently disabled.)
Assuming that you mean automobile not subway car, the answer is that given that we use transit for most things when we do use the car we are almost always in it together, with the kids besides.
I'm well aware that under normal conditions the subway is safer than the car. But our driving is pretty safe too -- we almost never drive during rush hour, almost never drive at night, almost never drive in the city. I've never had an accident.
"I'm well aware that under normal conditions the subway is safer than the car. But our driving is pretty safe too -- we almost never drive during rush hour, almost never drive at night, almost never drive in the city. I've never had an accident."
I'm saying that under these ABNORMAL circumstances the subway is much safer than an automobile. Also, city driving is relatively safe (with respect to your life, not your property); it's the suburbs and rural areas that are the killers. And never having had an accident is not as relevant when it comes to fatalities.
For those who drive sober and cautiously, the big danger is the inattentive or drunk driver in the oncoming car at 50 mph. A lot more people have died since Sept. 11 under such circumstances than died on Sept. 11.
On Sept. 11 one in 8000 New York area residents died. Since then one in 8000 Americans has died in a car accident; that's 15 times as many people. Many were drunk or reckless, but also many were not. And they keep on dying every day.
I'm not saying don't drive. I'm just saying there are risks in life, and the subways aren't that high on the list of risks, even now.
The only crime Salaam is guilty of is not filling out his census form?
why did you not say the government is guilty of invading the privacy
of its own persons ??
our privacy is a must to keep just that ......private
sending out any form to a government agency ( who knows who )
will strip you naked !
i hate it when i have to show my drivers liscense when i am not driving a car ...............damnit !!
all they should have done was say on a post card ok 3 people live here & thats it ( or do sampling ) without filling out any invading
forms ! hell when you get a transit pass you dont have to give your name phone number income level ss # etc ....!! right ....??
they now here have a new $ 58.oo transit monthly pass here in so. cal. ( lets you ride the rail too.. ( sorry no metrolink ) ...
& you dont have to fill out a senseless census form to buy one !!
"The only crime Salaam is guilty of is not filling out his census form (don't think I have forgotten Mr. LA -- it wasn't senseless at all). "???....whaaaaatttt??
he he he he he ..........lol
Heh. Yeah, now is no time to be screwing around on the railroad, and "Mister motorman, would you mind if I squeeze into your cab" is RIGHT out. :)
............whew !!
A favorite act by some vandals is to place a sharpened piece of metal across the tracks, designed to lance a passing diesel locomotive's fuel tank. On one occasion the crew had to jump from the cab before flames engulfed it.
Yo Ron: You've been reading that OSS WW2 book? Two fifty pound bags of flour and ..... How about 'smelly juice' in lead toothpaste tubes? Wooden sabots in the machinery? Please don't even think about this stuff much less post any of it...for whatever reasons the fictional 'Turner Diaries' were written, ideas and ideals led to wrongdoings. We do not know who reads the postings...just got an email from some young lady (?) that stated 'I read some of your postings and I'm interested in a chat...send me a pic.' I know I'm a timid soul but scary thoughts abound. CI Peter
"Please don't even think about this stuff much less post any of it"
The terrorists have all the nasty ideas already. What they don't necessarily have is the means to implement those ideas, though of course they're working on it to the best of their abilities.
Better that everyone knows what might happen, so that if they see something strange they report it rather than shrug it off.
The story Ron described is inconsistant with locomotive design and diesel fuel properties. Its is either a freak occurance or an urban ledgend.
How exactly would that work? Aside from an unlucky turn of causality any debris on the track would stick in the pilot or front truck. Unless you are sending projectiles against the side of the locomotive there is notway to consistantly or reliable damage the fuel tank.
Terrorists don't need to attack the Bay Ridge Branch of LIRR: the tracks there are in pathetic shape w/o outside help...LOL!
At 5:10 PM on WCBS I heard the Governor say that people who observe any suspicious activity around railroad property, should report it. He specifically singled out people taking pictures around railroad property as a specific activity that should be reported.
While I'm actually against censorship, I feel that this is a necessary evil in these times. So to Salaam and all those who want to protect your 'rights' do do whatever you please - this would be a perfect time to put your money (as in lawyer's fees) where your mouth is. Head on over to your local major rail facility and snap away.
Well ... rest assured that the diaperheads already have their collection of railfan shots, probably VHS tapes of every run everywhere there is, locations of all emergency exits, wayside blue light specials, probably even shots of all the switch machines and relay enclosures. Kinda late to be clamping down on *that* ...
Dunno if I'd bother to bang in a photog, but if someone wanted to sneak down the steps for a whiz, I'd be on the horn in a nanosecond. This particular alert though was for RAILROADS - you guys have been on alert all along so I know I'm not telling YOU anything new nor was the FBI.
You'd think though that all this would have been a no-brainer over a YEAR ago. Then again, our geniuses didn't seal off the Pakistani border for better than two weeks after we went in. Duh. :(
Maybe we can raise some funds and Put Sarge on duty at Branford. Knew a terrorist type once who tried to blow up a bus. Burned his mouth on the tailpipe. :)
Actually, with all the back and forth on this topic, it's not clear that anyone has ever been detained by the police against their will except if they were trespassing on railroad property (and I consider the T/O's cab to be railroad property).
Certainly many people have been told to stop taking pictures, or politely but insistently questioned for a short period, but I don't recall anyone saying they've been lengthily detained or arrested.
The police do get training in what consitutes probable cause for an arrest. Middle class people (and people with cameras tend to be middle class) have a tendency to sue when arrested without probable cause.
I have been stopped by the police on several occasions in my life where I was engaged in what appeared to be suspicious activity. They asked me what I was doing; I explained; sometimes they asked for ID, and that was it.
I feel that this is a necessary evil in these times.
Since terrorism will never go away "these times" is now until some undefined point in the distant future. You need to remember that when advocating these "security measures" for the "War" on Terrorism, that since the War on Terrorism will never end, the "security measures" will never expire.
So if you are fine with never being able to take railfan photos again go right ahead and support the current regime and its policies.
Mike, thanks for the response. It gives me a chance to expand on my original thought.
Your use of the word "regime" would lead me to believe that you disagree with the current policy (as opposed to the term "administration" or "our government") and that's fine. I get a kick out of those who think they are taking the moral "high ground" when they talk about 1st amendment rights or state "It's not about security. It's about oil."
I missed the sexual revolution & all the 'love-ins at the various college campus's. Today, thanks to the internet, it's free for the want of a few minutes browsing. Yet we are not free to partake unless we have a death-wish. HIV & Hepatitis C have limited our freedom if we were so inclined otherwise. In the same way, it is not some repressive regime that has limited our freedoms. It is the circumstances brought about by the Islamic Fundimentalists. (Don't start the shit about the Jews or the Irish or the Puerto Ricans or the Blacks - they are not today's terrorists) Like it or not, these 'peace-loving' people seek to impose their life-style on us and we are at war with them. People are concerned. Some see terrorists under every turban. Some see terrorists under every beard. Some see terrorists taking pictures of security sensative areas. It is the obligation of this government (or regime if it pleases your left-leaning sensibilities) to provide for the common defense & security of the majority. If, in these times, you cannot appreciate that your personal liberties might be infringed upon for the general good, then perhaps your value-system is somewhat askew.
Now, you are free to have sexual relations with as many willing partners as you wish as long as you are willing to suffer the possible consequences. However, while you can make that choice with your own health, you can't make it for mine. So too with security. You may somehow feel that your "NEED" to take pictures of trains in paramount but you cannot expect other's to sacrifice their security for it. Don't blame your government. Blame the Islameic Fundimentalists for your being barred from taking pictures.
Finally, keep this in mind. If the war on terrorism is not successful - you still may not have the freedom to take pictures You may also have a whole host of other things to worry about, too. And for those who say it's not about security - it's about oil. Will you be so cavalier about it when you can't afford to fill your SUVs or heat your home? WHen car-jackers will kill you for your car and the gasoline in it? Japan went to war in 1941 over oil. Don't tell me it's not a question of security. Learn from history....
I guess the whole security vs. individual rights issue really comes down to the following:
Do you believe in the rule of law or don't you?
The US has a body of laws. If the court system rules that banning the photographing of transportation vehicles from a public place is consistent with the Constitution, then so be it.
But so far the courts have not ruled thus. Therefore, the rule of law says that you are allowed to take pictures, and allowed to sue for false arrest if you are arrested without probable cause.
This doesn't mean that you are allowed to commit trespass or obstruct traffic, or that the police are forbidden to question you if they think you might have commited a crime.
But there is a big difference between being questioned for your legal activities and being arrested for them. If you believe that the police have the right to ARREST (i.e., remove to a place of detention against their will) people for activities that are legal, with no probable cause of illegality, then you don't believe in the rule of law and you are really on the same side as the terrorists.
(A totally different issue is how wise is it to taunt police officers who are unfamiliar with the law. If a cop tells you to stop taking pictures, I don't recommend continuing, even though it is still perfectly legal. That's just a matter of personal safety, not an issue of law or principles.)
You also have "failure to obey the instructions of a police officer" which *IS* grounds for detention. So you're stuck with the problem here of doing what you're told without sassing, get their badge number and turn them in for regrooving and reinstruction. But if a cop tells you to move (whether they're authorized to tell you or not) you MOVE. Whine later.
You also have "failure to obey the instructions of a police officer" which *IS* grounds for detention.
Kevin,
You're a bit younger than I, but I suspect that you remember the days when people who look like you (full beard) routinely got arrested for "resisting arrest".
Should this potential terrorist have been reported for photographing New York to Washington passenger trains?
Heh. Nah, I would have hit ya up for a doobie though - you looked TOO much like the rest of the press corps in that photo there, bro. You would have been FIRST to be hauled off, told "go work your press on the other side of the street" then be hosed down with a water cannon. I never had any problems with cops myself, I partied with cops in the Bronx and learned the secrets of how NOT to be selected for enforcement, what to say, what to do that would convince a cop that you were "part of the family and not an asshole." Worked. :)
"It's not about security. It's about oil."
It's about both.
"I missed the sexual revolution & all the 'love-ins at the various college campus's. Today, thanks to the internet, it's free for the want of a few minutes browsing. Yet we are not free to partake unless we have a death-wish. HIV & Hepatitis C have limited our freedom if we were so inclined otherwise."
So did I. I don't think we missed much. :0)
"(Don't start the shit about the Jews or the Irish or the Puerto Ricans or the Blacks - they are not today's terrorists)"
Perhaps you're confusing race with religious extremism. The above categories you just mentioned served with distinction in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf and with Special Forces in Afghanistan.
"It is the obligation of this government (or regime if it pleases your left-leaning sensibilities) to provide for the common defense & security of the majority. If, in these times, you cannot appreciate that your personal liberties might be infringed upon for the general good, then perhaps your value-system is somewhat askew."
It depends on how it's done. Some things are reasonable; sometimes they're not. That's why we have an independent judiciary to put the brakes on, and are able to not reelect leaders who don't lead well.
"You may somehow feel that your "NEED" to take pictures of trains in paramount but you cannot expect other's to sacrifice their security for it. Don't blame your government. Blame the Islameic Fundimentalists for your being barred from taking pictures."
I believe that taking pictures in and of itself is not a threat to anyone. There is nothing wrong with police paying attention to who is taking pictures and why, however. Going further is an abuse of civil rights even in these times.
During the Cold War, one of the greatest threats to our security was the Russians' growing ability to put nuclear warheads down on our ICBM silos with greater accuracy. They developed that ability without anyone on the ground taking pictures of the silos.
I've heard you can actually buy an old Titan II silo and turn it into your house...wonder what the realtor's pitch would be...
"Japan went to war in 1941 over oil. Don't tell me it's not a question of security. Learn from history...."
So it is about oil. Or more exactly, it's about resources. Resources = security.
Your entire arguement stems from the fact that you believe that any given set of security restrictions will actually improve our security. While it is one thing to argue about giving up freedon for actual security, is it qite another to give up personal freedom for the illusion of security. Restrictions on the free exchange of public information, restructions on movement and indescriminent survielance won't stop terrorism. If you think it will take a look at Isreal and how many terror attacks "aren't" happening there. The only way to truely eliminate terror attacks on home soil is to effectivly live in a police state like Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.
Removing personal freedoms for a war that has not been declared, has undefined goals and enemies and an indefinite time period is not something I feel comfortable with. It is the classic thin end of the wedge that allows for eventual total governmental control. Do you know how many times dictatorships have started by a leader assuming "emergency" powers for some "emergency" that never ends up endins?
There is no way in hell we would ever loose the "war" on terror. However there is no way we will ever win it either. As long as their are pissed off people there will be terrorist attacks. If its not one pissed off group its another.
Don't blame your government. Blame the Islameic Fundimentalists for your being barred from taking pictures.
So instead of blaming the government that I currently have some say about I should blame some nameless, faceless enemy whom I have no control of what-so-ever. This reminds me of something, but I can't quite recall the situation. Didn't someone say something along the lines of "Don't blame the government for your woes, blame the Jews." My memory is foggy, maybe you can help me.
A very well-reasoned post, especially that last comment.
A very well reasoned post. Mike is right.
I commented earlier on the constant publicing of nebulous "warnings".
As these reports are constantly aired with nothing happening that was forcast, the public will ignore them. It's the constant crying "wolf" that's the real problem. I'm beginning to believe that all the nebulous reports are really to back up Shrub's claims on Iraq.
We in the Baltimore/Washington area just went through three weeks of the nut(s) shooting people at random. Some people were so scared at possibly being a totally random target they would not get gas, go to the store or do other regular things because they might be shot. Out of a regional population of 2.5 million 13 people got shot. Pretty far odds, isn't it?
I have in my personal collection pictures of Baltimore streetcars taken in 1944 - when we were at WAR. Funny how ideas have changed, or have they?
What's even sadder is that in Los Angeles this year over 260 people have been killed by snipers, gang bangers. Even here in Albany, Schenectday and Troy, more people have been taken out by the usual drive by shootings. Of course, we don't hear about THIS in the media and while I'm tremendously sympathetic to the victims of these nutcakes, more people are killed every day in the ghetto than were killed here.
And yet, people go out every day and do their business. I for one am MIGHTY TIRED of this republican wet bedsheets mentality and the morons who keep feeding us this crap. As I said before, law enforcement needs to receive these bulletins and background info (reality time - local law enforcement is STILL kept out of the loop here while the TV news clowns get the story, suspicious as hell right there) and the PUBLIC needs to be taught about packages out by their lonesome, people wearing bulgy overcoats in the dead of summer and other useful information as to WHAT "suspicious conduct" is ... none of that happening either.
Can't believe America is so full of LEMMINGS ... :(
"I 4 -1 am MIGHTY TIRED of this republican wet bedsheets mentality"
...man thats right !!
What truly saddens me is that it's WORKING. :(
"I 4 -1 am MIGHTY TIRED of this republican wet bedsheets mentality...man thats right !!"
Salaam, I know where you're coming from. It would seem all your friends are on the other side.
omg the horror !!
We don't receive news of former Soviet Republics and what goes on in them. Spetsnaz forces flooded a Moscow theatre with 'knockout gas' killing 116 of 117 hostages...chances are that it was a 'nerve gas' and medical authorities were not properly notified of an antidote.
Stay 'the Hell out of Los Angeles and Newark' unless you're looking for trouble. There was a time in my life when I 'carried' and it is just not worth being in the middle anymore. The 'Good Samaritan' is looked upon as a person interfering with law enforcement today.
Welcome to the New World Order. CI Peter
Even dumber than THAT ... fortunately up here, we have CBC and can also watch BREMR *directly* ... the "gas" was Nitrous combined with another medical gas (forget the name now, but it's used here as well) and the problem is that they were SO hell bent on knocking out the Chechns that they opened up the pipe full bore to disperse it as quickly as possible. Those who died suffocated. Sadly though, a LOT of rescues over there tend to turn out like this and while the families weep, it's generally accepted there as a "cost of living." Truly a no win situation they had going there though since the spastics had already wired up boomski ...
Mike, what personal freedom are you actually giving up? No one has said you can not take pictures in a public access area of any rail facility. Train fans can still take their pictures whenever they like. What the governor said is that if you see someone taking pictures (and not necessarily in a publicly accessed area) report it to the police. Let the police investigate it if they see fit. If the photographer is not engaged in other than railfanning activities - he'll be left, unmolested. Doesn't seem to me that that's lessening of our rights.
"So instead of blaming the government that I currently have some say about I should blame some nameless, faceless enemy.....???"
Yes! Do you blame the government for aids? or for curley hair? It is not due to our government that there is a huge hole in lower Manhattan. It is not our government's fault that there are smaller holes in Pennsylvania and Washington, DC. Perhaps you feel that we should not have retalliated for those attacks. Perhaps you feel that we should simply accept future terrorist attacks?
During WWII, the British people lived with blackouts during german bombings. In essence, those pilots were faceless enemies. Should they have refused to shut off the lights? Would you have cried that your rights to watch TV were being infringed on? Time to wake up Mike & Ron. The muslim fundimentalist savages do not want to debate with us.
I think you've been riling Mike by being vague. It certainly wasn't clear to me until this post that you were agreeing that photographing trains from public places was still OK.
As I have said many times, I am a conservative and as such value the bill of rights. I just don't see what the big deal is to being challanged by duly authorized agencies if:
A) You are legally in this country and:
B) If you have no criminal motives in your activities.
And don't tell me that the next world out of some cops mouth after "Who are you" and "What are you doing" won't be "Well you shouldn't be doing that please leave". I have enough problems with asshole transit officials, the last thing I need is cops thinking I'm a terrorist.
Its going to be some railfan with a camera who catches terrorists in the act, not some cop who is running around questioning every guy w/ a head covering and a beard. As we have been told, the best way to stop terrorist attacks is to be observant. Well then why target the people who are spending their free time observing the rail system. Terrorists aren't stupid, we're not going to see them running around taking reconissance photographs. I'm sure the first thing they learned at training camp is that when you are scouting your target, don't make it obvious that you are scouting your target.
Its a good thing that there are enthusiasts out there hanging out along the rail system. The more people out and about the greater the probability that at attack can be discovered and stop. By turning those people in suspects the only people left out running around are the bad guys, who, unlike the enthusiasts, tend to remain hidden, only revealing themselves at the time of an attack.
Mike ... just to let you know, I agree with you. And the terrorists ALREADY HAVE the pictures. They've gotten even slicker lately, NOW they're hacking into the transit systems DIRECTLY using trojan horses and other tricks that work too well on Microsoft servers. First time we've done an update this year with 14 brand new nasties in one overnight. Many from CHINA.
That said though, fans with cams is just another thing that makes people twitchy in railyards and in the subways. While I agree with your point, while the "law" is busy trying to figure out who *YOU* are, it's time taken away from watching others. They're not so worried about the cameras (though they usualy don't spot that until they're in your face) ... the problem is ANYONE near the tracks these days who might be carrying a "package" ... and since we're headed towards "overcoat" season, they have to check out EVERYBODY just in case there's something UNDER the coat.
I *truly* understand both ends of this. What *I* do, and have done lately when I've brought GUESTS to the Selkirk yard (limited to whatever you can see from one of the parking lots ONLY) is to call ahead, give the railroad cops the license plate number, name and address of where we are (so they can verify ahead of time) and tell them what TIME, physical description and WHY we're there and what we plan to DO. Then we STICK with it. Makes everyone less twitchy and causes less waste of time better spent on checking out REAL terrorists.
If this is too much to do, then stay away from the trains. Time wasted on "foamers" might be time regretted should something nasty happen.
"And don't tell me that the next world out of some cops mouth after "Who are you" and "What are you doing" won't be "Well you shouldn't be doing that please leave"."
I'd suggest next time that happens to you, leave (because getting arrested is no fun even if you have right on your side), take careful notes of the situation, and call up the ACLU to see if they feel like filing a lawsuit asking for injunctive relief.
"I have enough problems with asshole transit officials,"
I guess that says it all, mike. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate as to what problems you have with transit officials and while your at it, what qualifies you to call anyone an asshole. From where I sit, you have far too many windows to be throwing stones.
The future of our hobby is cooperation between the railfan community and railroads/transit agencies. Calling a transit official or anyone else an asshole is immature and is inimical to your objective. Organized events like the Try Transit Festival are the best "photo ops" we are likely to have for the forseeable future. Steve and other NYCT employees have a SACRED DUTY to protect the MILLIONS of passengers who use the subway EVERY DAY, alongside that responsibility, the desire of a railfan for entertainment is INSIGNIFICANT, to say the least. Al-Qa'ida wants to destroy our way of life and railfans are going to have to adapt to changes in how the hobby is practiced. Railfans should join groups such as the NRHS and take part in group activities such as tours, nostalgia trips,etc. Calling any transit employee names will only "poison the well", making such activities less likely to happen
Good to see a John J. Blair posting!!! We in NYCTA who love our work (and vendor who fills new hardware bins was absolutely elated about the positive felings) are concerned about passenger security and safety. I ordered a special identification badge off the internet...the vendors only restrictions were for police identification. One phoney cop versus one phoney TA official...guess who could do the most damage??? We do our best to provide safe transportation...thank you John. CI Peter
Organized events like the Try Transit Festival are the best "photo ops" we are likely to have for the forseeable future.
An example of this sentiment was pointed out Monday night at the West Jersey Chapter NRHS meeting. A Chapter Board member was threatened with arrest by Amtrak police if he continued photographing at Wilmington station earlier this year. During the "members' slides" part of the meeting, another Board member showed slides taken without restriction at the Wilmington station during their version of Try Transit Festival in September. He stated that this may be the only way to get our photographs for a while.
John, it's nice to have you back with us and thanks for posting in such a reasonable manner. Perhaps mike will realize how childish his comments were and re-think his twit-like position.
The future of our hobby is cooperation between the railfan community and railroads/transit agencies.
The only concern I have from what I am hearing on this board is that the police are behaving as if Railroad buffs do not exist. Railroads and Transit agencies are well aware of our existence and should convey that to their enforcement agencies. At the very least police should approach railfans (or anyone for that matter) in a polite, and professional manner.
Errrrr- railroads are not run for the benefit of railfans. Railroads try, where possible, to accommodate railfans but some railfans seem to feel they are entitled to anything they want. Much has been made of what is legal and what is not. Some, here, have suggested that the NYCT has now legal authority to regulate the activities of railfans on NYCT property. Some have also stated that they feel that what Salaam did by conning his way into a cab to photograph the #4 line, was by no means, illegal.
I'm here to tell you that simply is not true. Please read the following:
The following is excerpted from:
“Rules of Conduct” by NYC Transit 6/99
NYCRR Chapter XXI
Metropolitan transportation Authority
Subchapter C
Conduct and Safety of the Public
“Section 1050.1
Authorization & Purpose
(a) The provisions of sections 1203-a(3) of the Public Authority Law provide the NY City Transit Authority & Manhattan & Bronx Surface Operating Authority with the powers to make rules governing the conduct and safety of the public in the use and operation of the transit facilities of those authorities.
Section 1050.6
Use of the Transit System
(c7) No person shall misrepresent through words, signs, leaflets, attire or otherwise such persons affiliation with or lack of affiliation with or support by any organization, group, entity or cause including any affiliation with or support by the Authority or the MTA or any of their programs such as Music Under the Streets or Arts for Transit.
Section 1050.9
Restricted Areas & Activities
(a) No person, except as specifically authorized by the Authority shall enter or attempt to enter into any area not open to the public, including but not limited to train operator’s cabs, conductor’s cabs………..tracks, roadbeds, tunnels, shops, barns, yards ………………..
(c) Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors and tripods may not be used.
Section 1050.10
Fines & Penalties
Pursuant to section 1204(5-a) of the Public Authorities Law, any person committing one or more violations of these rules shall be subject to either:
(a) criminal prosecution in the criminal court of the City of New York, which court may impose a fine not to exceed twenty-five dollars or a term of imprisonment for not longer than ten days or both.
(b) Civil penalties by the transit adjudication bureau in an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars per violation (exclusive of interest or costs assessed thereon)
Comments????
You're absolutely right, Train Dude.
I think rail buffs with cameras should consider that taking pictures of trains, facilities, etc. while on transit agency or railroad property is a privilege which the agency can deny you.
However, it is entirely improper for anyone to approach you while you are on public (non-agency)property and not in a restricted area and prevent you from photographing trains (noting your ID, OK, or asking you your name etc., that's fine).
If the agency's written policy is to permit photography, then it is improper for an agency representative to interfere with your doing so unless you are in violation of that policy (blocking the platform, using a tripod, taking pictures of nudes in the train, or what have you).
Other than Salaam, who was clearly in violation of the law as stated, I've yet to hear from any credible person who has been denied such access. Have you?
ye- mean those who have the GUTS enough to admit it !!!
I've had no problem on MTA property, other than a motorman who thought I needed a permit and a couple of car cleaners who have shouted, "No pictures!" I was, however, threated with arrest and asked to leave the property by NYRA police while photographic shuttle buses at Aqueduct.
Since NYRA property is private property - I suppose they can set any rules that they wish. As for Car cleaners not wanting their picture taken - their right to privacy likely transcends your desire to photograph them. I suppose we'd need a legal ruling here.
General photography rules are very simple: a 'casually taken' photograph for personal use can contain views of others and does not require any release form IF anybody in the frame does not offer objection. A photograph taken which might become copyrighted materiel is on the borderline...problems only arise when the pic is published and someone in the frame discovers and objects. Commercial photography is a whole other ball game...with copyright laws superceding 1st Amendment, anyone in the frame could conceiveably demand residual rights and payments upon discovery...that's why 'street shoots' take so long, keeping passerbys
at a distance which recognition is almost impossible.
I've taken many pics at TWU demonstrations and posted them at our barn without objection...only 'can you give me a copy?' IF I submitted pics for news publishing, chances are that my 'casually taken' pics could NOT be objected to as I was an active participant
and the general consensus is that any pic posted displays us and our
peaceful activities. 1st Amendment.
Now here is my question: as a Transit employee, what are the rules regarding photography of specific technical items or participation with my crew in activities POSITIVE to Transit? I have a TA employee suggestion form to fill out...the 'idea' is a method to resecure FibreGlas flash shields to the bottom of R142 trucks using materiels at hand and common to trainset inspection saving both time and money.
Isometric drawings might be complicated to produce but a series of pics or a video would make it so very easy for Engineering to study the process and come up with written 'tip of the day.' Submission of
pics might get me in big trouble...can I ask a supervisor or my DS for the use of a 'Polaroid' camera??? BTW: nobody has copied my clamping process..it was in full view on the main inspection track..nine cars sucessfully repaired in a ten car trainset in just about two hours or less (sans adhesive setting time.) CI Peter
>>> what are the rules regarding photography of specific technical items or participation with my crew in activities POSITIVE to Transit? <<<
Pictures taken while you are working for the TA may belong to the TA. Your biggest problem would be a charge that you were not performing the duties you were paid for while taking the pictures. In the situation you described, to illustrate a suggested change in a proposal submitted to the TA, there should be no problem.
Tom
So I do my technical photography on my break or lunch...they can write me up with a G2 for not consuming sustainance. The pics would become their property anyway because I release all of my rights when I make the submission in the employee suggestion form.
I walk the inspection track usually five times a day looking for trouble. Ten IRT cars, two city blocks long, round trip. The Deputy Superintendent knows and acknowledges what the crew performs...the 239th crew balks at how much work the 180th Street crew does...and there is not one pic anywhere to show how hard these guys work. The only pics there are show them at the rallies. 180th Street crew at 239th is probably the hardest working inspection crew in the system and TA loses by lack of interest or acknowledgement. I just met OUR Superintendent the other week...he is a nice and easygoing guy...but needs to know an earfull.
Thanks Unca Tom...I'll work on my isometric drawings first before making any submissions. The problem is trying to display the underside of the R142 truck and securing the flashboards in relation to the rail...easy to do upside down but very difficult to follow right side up. Not a case of 180 degree rotation. CI Peter
Since NYRA property is private property - I suppose they can set any rules that they wish.
Is photography prohibited on NYRA property? A sign may have been helpful. I also think removing me from the property was a bit excessive, since I had already put my camera away and was heading to the flea market.
As for Car cleaners not wanting their picture taken - their right to privacy likely transcends your desire to photograph them.
I wasn't photographing car cleaners, nor do I desire to do so. In one instance, she was directly behind me; the other, they were on another platform, also behind my back.
I've only been hassled over photography once, in a Wegmans supermarket.
Even this didn't generate a complaint:
LOL!! I guess you don't look like a terrorist. :)
Car cleaners are not celebrities in the legal sense; on the other hand if one happens to show up in somebody's picture...
Post 402526 (WDobner) strikes me as a description of outrageous conduct (not in NYC).
I can't say I have. In fact, NYCT has always treated me very well (but then I'm not usually at the railfan window, and I don't spend a lot of time taking lots of pictures - so how applicable is my situation?).
I have on multiple occasions come to the aid of injured patrons, and have had the privilege of working with very cooperative transit police officers and EMTs on such occasions.
you said : .........................!................?
"Some have also stated that they feel that what Salaam did by conning his way into a cab to photograph the #4 line" .........??
DUDE !! ..................hold it !!
i did not "con"..etc.. my way into ANYTHING !!
dats' not how it went down folks !!
( another reason to do away with the TRANSVERSE CAB ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
& bring back the railfan window !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i was waiting all night as i watched all of the redbirds going back
to the yards !! as soon as they hit woodlawn they go away !!
i really wanted to do the whole thing on all redbirds !!
sorry dude !! i did not con anybody at all !!
lets put the railfan window back into all of the lines !!!!
@ anyway i thought we were THROUGH WITH THIS SUBJECT !!!...??
................lol !
Salaam, with all due respect, according to reliable sources, you misrepresented yourself to the train operator to gain access. The train operator was wrong for letting you in. You violated the law whan you identified yourself as a member of the legitimate media. Anything else is just ca-ca.
this tread i thought was dead !!
i did not mis represent myself at all .........
& dats not the point and i did not interfere with the #4 or #6
operation back in 2000 either !!
I THOUGHT WE ALL AGREED TO END THIS TREAD ANYWAY ???......eh ?
The respected Trainorders web site has an article written by it's webmaster. Copy and paste this URL:
http://www.trainorders.com/stories/2002/10/30/467.php
Railfans need to change their "business model" -- museums and other non profit railfan managed recreational railroads are the way to go. If railfans stick to their organized activities and stop interfering with routine rail operations, events like Metro-North's wonderful Harmon Shop Open House will perhaps become more common. Remember that Selkirk TMO and other Subtalkers recently went up to Branford and got ***>>>HANDLE TIME<<<*** Photography is tertiary to true fans who work with museums.
John J. Blair
I MAKE E8s GO!!!
"If railfans stick to their organized activities and stop interfering with routine rail operations..."
Yes, wheedling one's way into a cab is interfering with routine operations and highly objectionable. But how is taking pictures of Amtrak trains from a parking lot or a parking garage (as described elsewhere today) an interference with anything?
Your nation is at war with those who have no respect for civilized values. the enemy desires to harm us in terrible ways and release terrible diseases which Civilization has already conquered once. Until the enemy is totally destroyed so that he can no longer can be any threat to the human race, you or I have NO BUSINESS photographing infrastructure without OPFFICIAL permission. Organized tours are one way to do this. However if you like trains, a museum in your area would really appreciate your volunteer work and you will get to really EXPERIENCE the equipment without fear of arrest. Camera? what's that
And to add one more time - We went out with a friend from Montana (Big Ed - you guys know him) to watch the trains at Selkirk Yard. In order to keep CSX from getting twitchy however, we phoned ahead, let them know we were coming, asked where we could go and where we couldn't, provided a full description of ourselves, where we live, the car description and license plate numbers. After doing so, CSX police were MOST cooperative, and we followed their instructions faithfully. Result? The office saw us, called us in, police knew we were going to be there, descriptions and plate numbers confirmed back and we snapped to our heart's content and had no problems. Nobody got twitchy and we didn't trespass. It CAN be done therefore - it's simply a matter of proving your lack of ill intent and following the rules. We hung out in the employee parking lot right next to the tracks where they were putting together trains.
But if you're going to be stupid, expect a procto exam.
Work WITH the officials, they are decent people if you play by the rules. Thank You, Kevin.
In our situation, they were GRATEFUL that we took the effort to let them know ahead of time. Railroad folks are MIGHTY twitchy now and anything we collectively can do to prevent them from WASTING THEIR TIME is helpful to them as well. You can't blame them really for having to roll the firetrucks with adrenaline pumping only to find out it's some @#%^&@#!@$^%& foamer. THAT'S why you get to play "up against the wall" when they get there. :)
I'm scared. When will this country be safe again?
I say don't be scared!! You being scared are just giving these guys the luxury of knowing they accomplished what they set out to do, and that is to make us afraid of them!! I ain't afraid of no man who bleeds like me and can die like me, and is nothing more than a complete coward, like these guys are!! You gotta live your life. If something is gonna happen then it's gonna happen....that's God's law, and there ain't much we can do about it!! Something can happen to you right now in your living room, tomorrow while on the way to work, or over the weekend while being out with your family, wife, girlfriend, etc....terrorist related or non-terrorist related!! Just live your life, and do what you normally do. Don't give these guys the luxury of knowing they have you as one of the many people who are being afraid of them. I refuse to live that way. And I work at what they wanna target.....a rail system. I am living my life. Just live yours too, and not worry, brotha!! :-)
Thanks for reading my post and the encouragement, Train Man Paul!!
oh wow. FBI warnings on attack against US railroads. and it just sooo happens that i work for the MTA METRO NORTH RAILROAD. i just hope the MTA police and the MTA K-9 bomb sniffing dogs keep patrolling the terminal. its nice to have a quiet terminal, but the minute i hear bombs or anything in the sky, im runnin da hell out LOL
fortunately i am done with the los angeles union station ....
very unfortunate guess we will have to take shots on other than
railroad passenger stations but maybe near them ...............
( not on thier properties ) ..........ugh ...omg !!
i will first case da' joint first then quickly fire off a shot or 2
....................!!
So we have all been ""wiped out""
I take regular train / amtrak shotz every now and then or so ....
how do they stop you from taking a train shot if you are on some
public street ??
They won't ... the big deal is don't photograph from a BRIDGE over the tracks and stay off the property, don't cross the line. You should then be OK. :)
whew !!
I don't know, but this I DO know - when I travel on November 11 with Simon Billis and subway-buff, I am going to be VERY discreet as to where I take pictures, IF ANY - In fact, I may forgo all underground photos for now, and concentrate on flashless (and more discreet) outdoor work. Even that may be subject to scrutiny. Discretion is the watchword right now until this scare blows over. Damn them al-Qaida, who knows if they're even telling the truth!
wayne
Better we not find out in my honest opinion. I haven't had too much trouble since 9/11 even on WMATA.
oh ? you take pictures of the WMATA, without a permit ...& they leave
you alone ??...if thats so ........nice !!
We aren't required to have permits and if I asked for one, they wouldn't give it to me, since I don't need it. Also, there are so many tourists who take pictures, enforcing a permit rule would be ridiculous.
glad to hear washington D.C. is ok to take pictures there !!
no kiddin' they dont bother you ............nice .......
You're right that you have to be VERY careful about where you go to photograph trains. Mr. Salaamallah should follow the law to the letter and use his HEAD!! Don't even THINK of photographing a train if there is tight security in the area. In other words, STAY OUT OF TROUBLE!!
#3 West End Jeff
UUMMMM...I think that it is time to change your rubber sheets. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
that is EXACTLY what i intend to do !!
& defend our rights as railfan photographers !!
that is my only motive here folks !
as fo the poster after you with his ""rubber room""...........??...!
( oh well )..........!
Rubber sheets are one thing but how to change out rubber walls and rubber floors??? As a TA employee, I'm not sure how to take legit pictures for legit reasons...I carry all the IDs anyone could possibly ask for BUT losing my employment is NOT worth one pic! What I would like to do is produce a CD with digitized video demonstating some of the inspection procedures of the R33 Redbirds...once the trainsets are gone, all is memory and history. The next batch of CIs to enter #2 land don't stand a 'snowballs chance in Hell' setting up an EP much less a Redbird...new CIs in #5 land might get a crack BUT the pick has been delayed and what time they may have will be short-lived. CI Peter
whew! got 2 B more careful!.......lol?
If anything, everyone should get their cameras out, and go enjoy taking photos of trains if that's what makes your day. photograph bridges, tunnels, and anything else you want to photograph. There's no law against it, and this is the perfect season to do it.
The idiots that would rather everyone throw away their cameras and conform to the new order of dubyaisms are the ones that should be looked at with suspicion, not photographers who harm no one taking their photos, and if anything are providing this country with an extra layer of security. I'm quite sure 99.9% of those interested in photographing trains and the like would report immediately anything that looks truely suspicious, and who better to know what looks suspicious that someone that regularly watches and photographs? We are a volunteer force. Eyes and ears that look around and 'patrol' places along the tracks that you'll never find a police officer. We're everyday heros, and most of us don't even know it.
Those who would rather us not take photographs of anything are the true villians. They've given in to fear and are doing the terrorists dirty work for them. They have, if you will, succumb to the dark side. they would rather everyone be controled and inspected, carrying around national ID cards and perhaps even having to 'seil heil' dubya along the way...
it is long overdue that we all stand up for our rights, dignity and respect. Anything less is give in to the terrorists. Armed only with my cameras and a copy of the law in my pocket, and my lawyers' phone number, I for one will stand my ground. I don't exactly like that the front line has been brought to my doorstep and that some paranoid lunatics think I'm the enemy, but I'm not about to back down. i love taking photos, and I will never stop. The only way they'll get my camera or film is from my cold dead hands.
Thank you and good night.
well said !! ...i agree !
If anything, everyone should get their cameras out, and go enjoy taking photos of trains if that's what makes your day. photograph bridges, tunnels, and anything else you want to photograph. There's no law against it, and this is the perfect season to do it.
The idiots that would rather everyone throw away their cameras and conform to the new order of dubyaisms are the ones that should be looked at with suspicion, not photographers who harm no one taking their photos, and if anything are providing this country with an extra layer of security. I'm quite sure 99.9% of those interested in photographing trains and the like would report immediately anything that looks truely suspicious, and who better to know what looks suspicious that someone that regularly watches and photographs? We are a volunteer force. Eyes and ears that look around and 'patrol' places along the tracks that you'll never find a police officer. We're everyday heros, and most of us don't even know it.
Those who would rather us not take photographs of anything are the true villians. They've given in to fear and are doing the terrorists dirty work for them. They have, if you will, succumb to the dark side. they would rather everyone be controled and inspected, carrying around national ID cards and perhaps even having to 'seil heil' dubya along the way...
it is long overdue that we all stand up for our rights, dignity and respect. Anything less is give in to the terrorists. Armed only with my cameras and a copy of the law in my pocket, and my lawyers' phone number, I for one will stand my ground. I don't exactly like that the front line has been brought to my doorstep and that some paranoid lunatics think I'm the enemy, but I'm not about to back down. i love taking photos, and I will never stop. The only way they'll get my camera or film is from my cold dead hands.
Thank you and good night.
my main man !!!!
None of you noticed that a subtalker was recognized as Employee of the Month?
Where is this posted on MTA's website?
Who Who Who Whooooo the old owl asks
Wow! Terrific! Wonderful! They actually have an employee of the month program!
(By the way, who was the lucky schmuck?)
Darius. Beat out Salaam by four votes. :)
Who who who where? So whadaya think 180th crew got today??? 2001 NYCTA safety award key chains which 239th got months ago. We donna get no respect, no tee shirts, no insulated mugs or nuttin...jus dees stinking last years leftover key chain. Use it...and lose your keys forever. We keep the Last of the Redbirds alive every day...better to give us nothing for our service instead of piss-poor leftovers. Employee of the month??? Gets six years of harassment, undeserved.
I bet he always reads the boards on his 15 minutes.
Maybe he always volunteers for more trips while on W.A.A.!! (j/k.....I do that!! That's why I get respect from a lot of dispatchers when I run late from time to time!! They look out for ya'!!)
Not for nothing NYCT inducted me last November as a Transit Ambassador for customer service!! (Got me a medal, a ambassador pin, and a free day off WITH pay!! I was appreciative!! Good to get some respect!!) I want Employee Of The Month next!! I mean it is good to get respect from a place that people think one gets no respect from!! From time to time NYCT recognizes your efforts!! Just keep your record clean and put a little something into the job!! They'll notice, believe it or not!!
Yes, your reputation for eagerly banging stuff in is well konwn.
Volunteer for more work? Not me! I don't do extra trips; I don't work my RDOs! 40 hours a week is plenty for me.
Wow! Alex got it? He definitely earned it ... now comes the razzing ... who's going to be first to sneak into the train and replace his handle with a socketwrench? :)
Damn sure ain't you, Z Man!! lol :-) j/k
Yeah. And they award it every other month. Go figure. And to show how well it works: I received the letter on 10/14, picking me for October EotM. At the time it had been mailed, I hadn't worked a single day in October!
You are Sept EOM.
Alex,
MAZEL TOV!
Alex,
MAZEL TOV!
Noticed it yesturday, when I saw the supervisor of the month. I said to myself "Bet there's no 'employee of the month'" and kept reading, glad I didn't say that aloud :)
Congrats Alex. Keep them dubya's running smooth.
Is that Wannabel who won?
If so, congrats on a job well done. Keep up the good work.
Do they get a parking space for the month? A ribbon? A check? :o)
Lunch and a day off.
On Thursday there were four full set of R40m's on the L. I had the set that I had for two trip on the J this past Monday. The South motor was 4542. All the cars that I could make out numbers were in the high 4400's and 4500'. I guess that from the L they might then go strait the CIY as more R143's come online.
Robert
I have found what appears to be a photocopy of a freight waybill from the Chicago & North Western Railway Co for a shipment from Waukegan Ill to ...
Branford Electric Railway Assoc.
C/O Agent NYNH&H RR
East Haven Conn.
The shipment was CNSM 709 described as
One MTY Interburban Coach traveling on own wheels Wgt 102800#
Shippers Load, Count & Tally
Special Instructions were...
DO NOT HUMP HANDLE REAR END OF TRAIN ONLY
MAKE POSITIVE SAFTY STOP BEFORE COUPLING
AVOID EXCESSIVE SLACK ACTION
DO NOT SWITCH WITH ANY OTHER CUT OF CARS
The Bill of Lading date is 3/2/64 and the routing is Chicago EL Maybrook NYNH&H
I find this paper fascinating. Does this 38 year old document pertain to one of Branford's current museum cars, and is anyone familiar with the car?
Yep, it's there ...
http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/viewcar.pl?car=709
I'm quite well acquainted with it... even rode it when it was in service on the North Shore Line. 709 did see service at Branford at one time but it was damaged in the 1992 flood and is now inoperative. Jeff Hakner could probably offer more details, but I seem to recall that its motors were ruined. It's now buried way back in one of the barns, I believe... I haven't seen it in a long while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
709 ran during a trolley pageant in August of 1980. Took a picture of it, too.
>>>"Took a picture of it, too."<<<
So post the picture allready.
;-) Sparky
Thanks to all for the input!
I hope that I will get the chance to see a picture of this car.
It and I think 4 other cars were in that fateful freight train.
The story, which is documented in the Branford Electric Railway
Journal newsletter of I think July 1964, is that the excessive
slack action from being at the end of this train caused several
drawbar breaks. Between Chicago and Connecticut, most of the
cars had to be set out with busted couplers. Ours (709) was
one of the few that made it all the way.
All of the motors were flooded in 1992. Two were brought back
up to acceptable readings. Unfortunately, several of the motors
also have bad commutator string banding, restricting the car
to 5 MPH
excessive slack action from being at the end of this train caused several drawbar breaks.
It sounds like the EL train crews completely ignored the special instructions about avoiding excessive slack action.
Jeff, is this car a barn car, or is it under a tarp and outside?
It lives in a bahn.
It resides in a "Caw Hause", bahn is for horses
and track and signal types.
;-) Sparky
Be it caw house or bahn, it sounds as if the caw would be viewable if a docent would be willing to show it to you!
Karl B,
At this time it is not accessable, the Car House where it resides,
is a seperate key, not available to all docents. To view this car
you have to gain excess from the shop or other key personel.
If staffing permits, we will gladly, show it to you along with
"Augies" car, the Mineola, they resides in the same building
along with other cherished jewels of the collection.
;-) Sparky
I don't suppose this might be the same car house that holds 197, 659, 1227, 1349 or 1362 !
>>>"I don't suppose this might be the same car house that holds
197, 659, 1227, 1349 or 1362?"<<<
Karl,
Let me bring you up to speed as to the latest status of the "Brooklyn
Gate Cars".
Here are some exerts from the BERA "Tripper" as to the status of 197.
August, 2002:
..."In the ``out of left field'' department comes news that Kings County Elevated 197 is in the shop. We can hear those guidebook pages turning! Having lived in relative obscurity within the dark confines of ``New York'' Barn #4 for the past few decades, 197 was in fact the first piece of rapid transit equipment to be acquired by the museum back in October 1955 and was sponsored by Dr. George Rahily. It was built in 1888 by Pullman and is in most respects a typical late 19th century wood coach, long-ago hauled by small steam locomotives along the Brooklyn elevated system. After electrification, multiple-unit control cables and sockets were added, allowing the car to be used as a mid-train trailer until 1952. Mike Schreiber intends to cosmetically rehabilitate the car and use the interior for a rapid transit exhibit. Before this can be done, Ted Eickmann will address structural issues. Already he has jacked up the car and pulled in the turnbuckles to correct body sag. Old water damage from years
of exposure to the elements has weakened the side sill and framing in one corner of the car. Ted removed a long stretch of rotted board-and-batten siding to reveal this damage, which he is now treating. In the meantime, Mike has been stripping off old paint and various layers of temporary roofing material. The anti-climber has been removed on one end and repairs to the crown beam and coupler carrier are in progress."...
September, 2002:
..."A whirlwind of activity surrounds Mike Schreiber and Brooklyn gate car 197 , as the platform, roof, letterboard and siding has been scraped of old paint. All of the old roofing material has been removed. Portions of the siding and platform area have been sanded. Ted Eickmann completed repairs to the #2 end crown beam and, with help from Rich Slinsky, straightened the anti-climber. Al Grant cleaned and applied rust converter to the coupler carrier. Joe and Adam Lagosz repaired a platform gate."...
October, 2002:
..."Al Grant has moved out of state. One of his final acts was to sandblast and paint anti-climber and coupler carrier parts for Kings County Elevated 197 . John DiSarro and Victoria Kirby worked on cleaning up and painting various platform hardware such as the tread plates. Mike Schreiber continued stripping the old roofing material from the car. Ted Eickmann completed work on the repaired crown beam. Steve Kann cleaned platform gates."...
Well, that's the current status of 197. But for monthly updates as
to it progress and everyting that's happening at Branford, the
Associate Level Membership is only $15 per year and brings you a
monthly newsletter via snail mail and on line with full color photos.
Membership information at BERA.org.
659, 1349 & 1362 are residing in the same car house as 709 and the
Mineola. Space limitations and a voluntary work force restrict
everything from being done besides $$$.
1227 is coupled with Manhattan Elevated Car #41, AKA 'G', and may
be seen on the guided tour thru the open Car House Door. The
Brooklyn Car is not on the regular tour route, but is accessable
for viewing, if requested. The pair were operated in service at
"Autumn in New York", last month.
Hopefully this data will whet everybody's appetite and interest
in the largest collection of Brooklyn EL Cars in existence.
Thank you for reading this long post.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
Did #197 ever travel out east to Short Beach in all the years at Branford ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
#197 hasn't gone to Short Beach since I became a operating member in 1985.
Don't know about the three decades prior to that.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
Thanks so much for the detailed report on 197. I really feel bad about you typing all of that. The reason is that I have been a member at Branford for several years, and receive the "Tripper". I really thought you knew that.
I have never been to Branford, and am still hoping that I can make the trip someday. Since I have never visited, I have not tried to figure out what is stored where. I am aware though that 1349 changed buildings several years ago. It seems to me that 1349 is painted green on one side and brown on the other.
I rode a lot of the trailers in the late 1940's. They were used mostly on the Fulton-Lex Line. I never rode on any with a number lower than 200 though. The trailers were all very well maintained, and painted on the inside, but the outside wood was never painted, and this was when the TA was repainting the motor gate cars in that attractive green. The outside wood of the trailers had the finsh of the wood of an old country barn, showing no trace of any paint, and I was never able to determine what color they had been originally.
I enjoyed reading your report, and thank you for taking the time to write it. I do hope to meet you someday at Branford.
Karl B
Sparky copied and pasted all of that from the MEMBERS ONLY part of the BERA web site. If your a member all you need is your member number and your zip code and you have access to the reports.
1227 is in a barn that all docents have keys too so if you do make it up, you can see her, same barn has the Low-V/R9/R17 and will proabably be that way through the winter.
Thanks, Lou, I was afraid that Sparky had typed all of that out from old copies of the "Tripper".
I'm not very computer smart, am I?
I do read the "Tripper" online each month, as well as receive it by mail.
I want to make an additional remark with regards to the el cars, BU 1362 and Instruction Car 999 are stored outdoors and currently tarped at the far end of Branford's Yard Area. We call it the Run Around Track.
-Stef
Had to re-tie down 1349's tarp two weeks ago.
1349 is outside? I think you mean 1362.
-Stef
Right, Stef, 1349 is in the 'Mineola barn'. Are we gonna see you up at Branford one of these days??
DD, I'll put in an appearnce soon enough. I should have one or two days coming.
Redbird Fantrip a possibility.
-Stef
Then the picture of the partially uncovered 1300 series car is actually 1362, and not 1349?
I guess it's 1362. It is a wooden gate car with steam coach roof.
As an added update to the progress of 197 it should be noted that I have volunteered my services to Mr. Schreiber's project for the winter months.
197 now resides on the shop floor replacing 850 which is now on the pit track. The 'Emergency Trolley' is now alongside the paint shop (197's old former position).
What *I* wanna know is where is the beer tanker car parked? :)
Don't you know?....it's in heypaul's apartment! :)
The whole time we were there, no beer! Ohhhh ... NOW he's gonna get it. Sorry, two-fisted operation is cool and all, but I'm used to a THIRD handle when you ain't pulling air ... the BEER handle. :)
Nothing I get a kick out of more than BVE handle time with experienced "engineers/motorpeople" who've tied one ON instead of just tying up in the company bar. All the finesse is GONE after a couple of beers, and I just LOVE the sound of CHOW! with a five minute penalty at every ball. :)
Wouldn't do it on a REAL railroad of course, but it sure does amuse "professionals" when they see the results. But yeah, nothing like the beer car as we sit here laughing our butts off tallying up casualties as we collectively ponder Rule G. Just so folks know I don't screw around. But on a simulator, it's amusing.
Since 197 is in the SHOP, BMTMAN can reach a very LARGE frig with ease.
Bathroom on the other hand, the nearest thing is the 2nd tree on the left and you end up raising the level of Farm River.
Heh. I'll have to bring along a kidney simulator then. :)
I never mess with Rule G though on REAL rolling stock. But once the shift's over and I'm not up the following day, it's WILLARD time.
I hate running two city blocks for a wizz....trees are to be hugged and watered. CI Peter
Nice project to do over the winter. While there's no painting to be done on my beloved car, maybe I can actually do some mechanical work on 6688. I'll speak to the Hak and Ted E. about it. We'll see...
-Stef
Would the car in the below photos be Kings County Elevated #197? I wasn't sure; I thought it was #824, but obviously I don't actually know what I'm talking about. Help?
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st/images/bera-st490.jpg
http://subway.com.ru/bera-st/images/bera-st480.jpg
Frank Hicks
Correct! It's 197 undergoing work. 824, unfortunately, is in a sad state of affairs....
-Stef
Hey, I resemble that remark! Pipe down, or have your speed "positively enforced."
Good thing about Branford? I *never* spotted a tripper on the trips there DESPITE the name of the newsletter. :)
If they'd installed timers and trippers (aside from WD 10 which was NOT lit when I was operating) then my arse would have been BUSTED for twice the limit in spots. I'm one of those dangerous types who finally came to realize after 30+ years of kicking myself that I *did* have the proper stones for operating in the 70's ... and I also came to realize that my only operating problem was over-applying and having to rot coming up to the marker.
I'm ready to come BACK to the TA if the pay didn't suck. I'd make TSS's open the crew door and LEAP. :)
Just ask the Communications and Signal Department at BERA about the famous "POWER TRIP". Since all cars don't have trippers, they are tripped a different way.
I'm sure Dave B, a member of the above department could email you the details.
Yeah, I'd be curious about that actually. Then again, you were with me when I ran the train, did I hit any balls? My understanding is that you'd have to whack an IJ after passing homey and well ... control of train and all, never had the chance to see what happened if I'd hit a fire my ass red and with geese on board, wouldn't have wanted to find out the hard way. But you'd said, pass it and the lights go out. Your word was good enough for me. :)
On that "Special Day", there were times, we actuated the "Alarm",
thanks goodness, the cut off was not enabled.
;-) Sparky
Hopefully I wasn't one for the rogue's gallery. I tried to be a good boy aside from speed (faster run means more trips) ... heh.
No, it had to do with Streetcar operation, but also it a work
still under construction, have to work out the faults. To
expedite the movements of the day, we did pop the Alarm.
;-) Sparky
Yeah, I sat there in absolute AWE, knowing what you had out on the railroad and watching it clear the line. If YOU were a TMO, then da city would have the fabled 40 TPH with you in charge. Of course, those of us who had a clue as to what you were UP TO were wondering HOW you were able to avoid getting fitted for your very own rubber room. :)
I was IMPRESSED by the way you were running the railroad that day. I sure couldn't have kept up.
It's what we pay him the big bucks for < G >
I say give the boy a raise ... here's a quarter. :)
Nah, I saw how hard he was trying to keep the railroad from laying down, and with W3 in the trolley parade, Unca Sparky did Yeoman's work there. I'd buy him a beer, but he'd have to come up HERE to collect it. And that COULD be fun, but it's a hell of a haul from da boroughs.
>>>"And that COULD be fun, but it's a hell of a haul from da boroughs"<<<
Well, remember the weekends, when not occupied at one of my
beloved "Trolley Museums", that we spend time in Kerhonkson.
That's more than half-way to Selkirk. But with the upcoming
events and schedule it will not be till 2003.
;-) Sparky
Yeah, but at least you have a REASON to come to Kerhonksen. What are the attractions up here? Hmmm. Watching freights blow by at 40? Visit the Paturkey? He's never here. You can watch the gnats and skeeters and bunnies multiply, but they're out of season. I can understand. :)
To add to the insult, Bruno swiped our baseball team AND our train station. So about all there is to do up here is kibbitz, sleep and drink yerself into a coma. Heh.
Norwich, CT lost their Yankee AA team to Trenton too.
The Yanks also had an Eastern League team in West Haven when I lived in Connecticut.
Those "Ravens" belong to Seattle, I think.
Was in New Britian this year ... sold out game the Saturday I went.
Also did the Atlantic City Surf earlier in the Summer, they are part of the "independant league".
Those "Ravens" belong to Seattle, I think.
Was in New Britian this year ... sold out game the Saturday I went.
Also did the Atlantic City Surf earlier in the Summer, they are part of the "independant league". Bridgeport has "railfan" seats !
Bruno spent $25 million of NYC money to replace Albany's AA team with a AAA team in Brunoland. I'd bet Bloomie could have used the money more. :(
You can always pretend one of those freight trains is a D train on the CPW express.:)
Nah ... after the climb up the hill from Selkirk, those boxcars fly by here about as fast as a Sea Beach. And they all say "CHINA" on the side of the trailers. That blew BigEd's mind ... EVERYTHING is Chinese importers on the rails through here ... nah, when I need a subway fix, I either run my Japanese commuter cars on the desk or fire up BVE and make a Hippo do 86 MPH. :)
Yeah, I gets a bonus this year ... eight 0s instead of seven
and a visit to a "Nuts & Bolts" Facility. >Golly<
;-) Sparky
Sparky must have learned his craft from Frank Corrall.:)
Great shots of your replicas !
197 has a why to go before she looks like that again, but fortunately she's still pritty good overall. Guess that's my Mike picked her.
When you were at Branford which cars were you working on ?
Now all we have to do is resurrect a few R-1/9 trainsets for you.:)
Heh. I wouldn't mind the 143's if I was dumb enough to come back. Only thing is I'd want to move the controller. But yeah, Arnines all around as far as I'm concerned. 10 of them IS more fun than just eating one. :)
I'd settle for two just to be able to assume the position and work the doors.:)
That can be an either/or proposition. Don't forget, it's TWU 100 that'll be watching you assume the position and then decide what to do about it. :)
>>>"If they'd installed timers"<<<, besides the WD-10, which wasn't
actuated on your visit, the Surface Car Operators face a timer on
inbound trips at Signal 8-W. If your exceeding, it makes you apply.
;-) Sparky
Ah! That was a timer ... kewl! I saw it clear a good distance ahead of me if it's the signal I'm thinking of, on the TROLLEY track headed towards Sprague after the platform over there ... but we diverged ahead of that spot, so it was wrap that puppy to the yard limit, check the iron, check the points and ignore the WD. I *loved it* ... :)
The WD signal was just for giggles. We had it working on NY Daze
but it was disconnected already by the time you came. Signal 8W
may appear to be a timer but it is not designed as such. It is
an approach-cleared signal which is normally at red. The
operation of it may change after next year as that interlocking is
our next project.
Pity you were doing REAL work when we first landed - you should have HEARD the obscenities out of my mouth when I saw that WD sitting there. Heh. Between that and the bingbonger in Steffie's ride, I saw quickly that you guys were the kinda folks I enjoy being with. :)
Nice touch on that ball coming off Avenue L there too - loved the combination of color and position signal. In fact, all of your numbers there are extremely cool. The only thing I'd do different would be bringing the call-on button up to RT car height to avoid the step-down but hey, that's a minor whine there. VERY impressive show you guys have there though, definitely gotta find some way to spend more time there and be more useful.
If I can nab one of those yellow call-on boxes, I'll add it
to the signal mast.
That'd be neat ... with all Unca Sparky had going on for our little shindig, I felt bad watching him leap across to hit the button before we could crawl out of 1689 and do it ourselves. Now for the musical question ... does that WD have the actual metal detectors stretched out on the rails? :)
Don't mind me, I thought that was a hoot. When we have more of NYCTA's current day motorpeople show up there, we'd best check them to make sure they don't have plans to put bulletholes in it. Heh.
The WD signal is gone now. It was just a gag for NY weekend.
We set up a short audio-frequency (i.e. jointless) island track
circuit and a timer relay, so in actuality it was more like
a single-shot timer than a wheel detector.
Aw dang! That was a hoot. Well ... next year maybe we can put up a zebra and hose down anyone who doesn't salute it. I tell ya, between that and the bingbong in Steffie's ride there, you guys are a bunch of cutups. Glad to have MET ya! :)
Next NY days there's going to be a Trip-Stop insalled with the WD!
Glad to see someone was suitablly expletive-spewing over the timer --which was the whole point, as Jeff mentioned.
I need you to autograph the your picture of you and the WD for my collection!
I'll do the same, then draw in a mustache & horn rimed glasses :-)
COOL! Then I can "bleed the brakes" Money Train style for y'all. I always got a kick out of that line. But SURE, a nice yeller T handle to come up, a dab of white paint on that little dangler on 1689 and it'll be like home. Just another climb as far as I'm concerned. I was enjoying that. Have THUNDERTHIGHS now. :)
Hey, Dave B: I hear you're been hanging around a certain club in Bay Ridge...so have you donned your vest, hard hat, and flashlight to lend those guys a hand with signalling? :) Their El structure could use some trip-arm features or a homeball. Don't you agree?
I guess I've been AWOL with those guys, but their times of operations aren't easy for me...
I sent the following to someone I consider a friend, but thought I'd share it HERE as well ... please feel free to carve it into "transit entitlements" or take it wherever you wish, mindful of the subject matter here. I thought it might serve as an enlightenment as to where *I* am coming from when I post "politicalspeak" here ...
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
Hmmmm.
What goes around, comes around ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Sure does ... any student of ancient civilizations will concur. And here we are again. While we eschew "welfare mothers," we think nothing less of General Electric when they belly up to the bar demanding THEIR welfare check from their OWN anointed. So goes Enron, so goes Martha Stewart. Prostitutes sign campaign checks too, and have similar "willie stains" on their blue curtain. "Noblesse Oblige" is dead. Film at 11. :)
Very true. History ALWAYS repeats itself, and we live in no different a time than during any other point in history. Some might say that we are at the height of civilization so were different, but so were the Romans, Mesopotamians, Egyptians and scores of other people.
Sad isn't it. No matter how far back you go, human nature is pretty much the same.
But the technology is different. None of them had railroads.
True, but after a while the chariots (which used the SAME gauge) were no longer running on time.
And way too many of us seem headed for that "Apathy" bit. :(
Well, if all of us commit suicide tomorrow, we won't have to worry about any of that.
Or, we can do the best we can to continue improving ourselves...
If you don't mind Ron I'll forego your first suggestion, but your second choice is the only logical answer. Then everyone must stop reaching into the cookie jar, the welfare cheats, and the corporate thieves. Some sacrifices have to be made but one thing I would like to see is that everyone has health coverage. It sickens me to know that some poor people can be sick and have no recourse to any medical help at all. And when that reaches their children, well unless you have a crystal for a heart, you just have to ache a little bit for them.
Fortunately history doesn't fully bear him out. Democracy combined with FIRMLY ESTABLISHED RULE OF LAW (which many fledgling democracies never did get to establish before they collapsed) have tended to survive quite well.
As Churchill said, the worst form of govt except for all the others.
Being an optimist I have good feelings that we aren't going to go the way or the Greeks or Romans. We are a generous and compassionate people and since we are so diversified we can learn from one another and grow as individuals which, in turn, will auger well for the future of our nation .
You make a good point Selkirk, but I for one still have faith in America. I mean no matter how much one group buys or rigs elections, panders to religious ferver, lies and exploits rank stupidity I still have faith that the system will one day correct itself. Its not like in our country we see key opposition leaders and their families are suddenly dying in horribly tragic accidents. As long as the oposing viewpoint exists I have faith in America.
The price of liberty is vigilance - all I ask is that we keep an eye on 'em. :)
Memphis trolley to shut down for two months for track work.
http://www.gomemphis.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_1501246,00.html
Hi! Haven't posted here for a long time! Just wanted you all to know
that we are having a sale on some shirts, and have introduced cool new
hats and new bags to the NYC Subway Line.
The new hats are #S and #7. The prices are good too!
The new bags are two different sizes with the #1, #6, #A & #F.
Also now carry Khaki and Royal Blue in the MetroBags, which have a
pocket for your fare card.
Check out the Specials section for the sale items, and remember...
the Holidays are coming soon!
http://nycsubwayline.com
"... we are having a sale ..."
Would that be the Transit Museum store at Grand Central ?
If so we wouldn't mind a shameless post once in a while,
especially if you are changing the exhibit.
Dear Thurston,
Hi! No, although they sell most of my line at the Transit Museum Store at
Grand Central, they don't have room for all of it. And my connection
to the store is that I am a licensee of the MTA, and all royalties
from the sale of my line go to support the NY Transit Museum!
Cool, huh?
Can't help you on exhibits, though. Though I understand the one coming up
for the Holidays is gonna be great!
I have my own web site for the line.
nycsubwayline.com
Check it out.
Any plans for J/M/Z shirts anytime soon?
--Mark
How about the Q, that is the Broadway Q in the circle version? The N, R, and W are already made.
STILL WAITING FOR A Q T SHIRT XXL
Any yellow (Q)/ T-shirts out there?
Are you planning to the issue black T shirts in any Nassau street routes, (J,M,Z) or in Q (either diamond or circle), or the #5 any time soon? Last time I went to Transit Museum store, still saw the same routes I saw the year before.
wayne
Wayne,
I think a lot of that has to do with the Transit Museum store itself.
It is up to them to change their stock. If they have a lot of a particular T shirt, I am sure they are going to wait until they are sold before updating the stock of that particular shirt or get newer T shirts.
Also keep in mind that they have limited space for all the items they are selling.
True, though if you check the on-line store, you can see their entire "inventory", and on subwaygrrl's site, the J/M/Z/Q lines are not listed under tee-shirts ....
--Mark
Hi, guys! As a creator of the concept, I eventually want to do all of
the trains. We're still small, so have had to do it gradually. Last
year we added the "W" and "G." One of the problems seems to be that
as we do the lines with fewer riders, we have fewer sales on those tees than on the more popular lines. On a business level, that's difficult. Still, we will march forward! We have the #5, but just in
a "Sparkler" shirt for Juniors.
Our best selling tees are: #A (still the most famous, thanks to Duke
Ellington!) #F, #1 and Yankee Stadium.
I'd like to have a contest where people could send away their votes for the next train shirt to be done. I'm going to talk with the MTA about it. Maybe they'd make a "car card" on the buses and trains to
tell people how to vote. Most popular train we haven't done, wins.
One of the people who voted for that train gets some free shirts in
a drawing.
What do you guys think?
Haven't had many contests since Miss Subways.
This leads me to another post.
I think you should consider the most heavily used, like #2, #5 for the IRT, and "C" or "Q", or at least one Nassau Street entry (like "M"), for instance.
For sake of the most heavily-used routes, it would surely be #2 for IRT, and "Q" for the B division.
wayne
Wayne & Bob,
In her defense, when we visited the Transit Museum Store, the
'G' shirt was only in stock in black. I ordered direct and
now have all 3 colors the 'G' is available in XXL.
As for the Nassau Street Lines, I saw a 'J' shirt on a YL with
an enchanting shelve, on the way home from the D Type fan trip
to the docks, on a 'J' train to boot. So it may be out of stock
at this time.
As for the Q shirts, what color bullet would be used, orange or
yellow? The investiture on a line which may change colors in
2004, is risque.
View what she has to offer at NewYorkCitySubwayLine.com
;-) Sparky
Thanks for the defense! The shirts you saw were counterfeits!
His expenses are so much less than mine. No royalties. Goes to
support just him, not the Transit Museum!
Thanks for your purchase, and advice on Miss Subways!
I only saw the "J" shirt that one time, and being a D.O.M.,
still alive, I thought the shirt was cute, but paid more
attention to the configuration of the Y.L.
Sorry to hear there are phonies in this limited market.
BTW, your service is most expeditious, had my order from UPS
before Noon today.
;-) Sparky
D.O.M.?
Y.L.??
I am clueless. Help!
Glad you got your shirts right on time. We try!
>>>"I am clueless. Help!"<<<
>>>"D.O.M.?"<<< = dirty old man
>>>"Y.L.??"<<< = young lady
Mrs. Sparky says I can look but don't touch.
Well she was shapely and wearing a Subway T-Shirt legit or not.
'nough said. >G<
;-) Sparky
I would stick with the Yellow bullet fot the "Q", since it would probably stay on Bway when the bridgeworks finally end.
Speaking of bullets- I won Chas. Fiori's Eastern Div. R42 roll sign! Cost me 81.01 and is worth every farthing.
wayne
Whatever you do, don't lose it.:)
I have leftover buddy passes from Delta than I need to redeem by the end of November. I was thinking about taking a two day trip sometime in March. I’ve narrowed it down to two choices:
Montreal- Fun city to party, I like their subway and would want to try to ride to whole thing. Also they have better, umm, “adult laws” than the US, and I want to take full advantage of that :-) If I go here, I'll probably end up taking one of my friends with me.
Philly-NYC- I’ve been to Philly before, but never got to ride the subway nor eat a Philly cheesesteak. I also want to ride the streetcars. Maybe we could have a Subtalk fieldtrip too, since there are a lot of Subtalkers there. After spending a day and night there, I would take NJ transit early in the morning to NYC and spend most of the day there, maybe another fieldtrip. After that, I would fly back home from either EWR or LGA.
Philly-NYC seems like the better choice to meet some people from here, plus I would visit two cities instead of just one. But I really like Montreal and I think I would have a blast partying there the whole time. But is it still mega cold in March up there?
So where should I go?
Well if you were going to go to Canada and you've never been there before, from a railfan perspective I'd suggest Toronto first over Montreal (largest streetcar system in north America, isn't it?) But I was in Toronto last February-President's Day weekend and it is bitter cold. No fun for a streetcar fan. So if those are your only choices I'd have to vote Philly. But what about some place warm? You could do San Diego-Los Angeles in a couple of days. Ride the light rail systems there... or Dallas.. New Orleans... Seattle & Portland (rainy but wouldn't be as cold as Canada).
I've been to Toronto three times and Montreal once. The thing with the buddy passes is that I'm paying for the distance I travel. Round trip from ATL to LGA is somewhere around $90. So travelling to the west coast will be more expensive than I would like for just a two day trip. I've already been to New Orleans, but I'd rather save a trip for there for Mardi Gras and stay a week. I did Seattle in a January, and it was actually colder in Atlanta at the time! Once in Seattle is enough for me.
Philly is that last East Coast city that I don't know as well as the others, even though I've been there once, so it'll be nice to get that out of the way. Since NYC is right there, I fun trip on NJT would be nice, I've never been to NJ or ridden commuter rail in the US. I'm cold weather person, but if it's still very cold on Canada in March, then I'd rather not do that. Plus, I'm going to Brazil ($322 round trip, not bad at all) in December-January and it's summer there. I'll have my dose of very hot weather there. Philly-NYC seems like a better choice for me on this trip.
March is pretty much a transition point between winter and spring in Montreal, so some years it's cold and other years it's warm. Unfortunately there's usually no way to tell. I can tell you that they're predicting ice storms again this year, which probably means a warm March. I would aim for the end of March though... that's your best chance at getting warmer weather.
You could do San Diego-Los Angeles in a couple of days. Ride the light rail systems there... or Dallas.. New Orleans... Seattle & Portland (rainy but wouldn't be as cold as Canada).
If going in winter, I would definitely vote for San Diego. It's a railfan's paradise down there, and the weather is beautiful in the winter (60's to 70's). The San Diego trolly is a really nice system, and good for hours of railfanning. WHen tired of that, the Pacific Coast route is one of the nicest in the country with it's run along the ocean, especially in the Del Mar and La Jolla area, but it's a fun route to railfan right up to Oceanside, where the commuter Coaster trains end. Amtrak also runs from San Diego and beyond Oceanside. There is also some freight on the route.
When I was in New Orleans, I was also there around February, and the weather was in the 50's to 60's and pleasant. The Saint Charles route is not to be missed, and even the riverside line is nice. (Soon the Canal STreet line should be opening in the next year or two, they were still working on it when I was there earlier this year. I don't know when it is to open). Also quite a bit or freight alongt the riverside line. And when tired of railfanning, there's always Bourbon Street......
I might be wrong, but if Canadian air travel counts as "foreign", your travel agent can get you a "broken" round trip (return from a different city) for cheaper Montreal-NYC than Philly-NYC. You could Amtrak between Montreal and NYC. Best of both worlds.
Hmmm, interesting. I'm going to have to give that some thought.
The wonderful thing about Montreal is that you can do b&b in the St.Catherine area for cheap, everybody in Montreal (gay and straight) goes to that end of town, it's active day and night, and all the interesting areas (downtown and artsy) are within reach of one another. I know both Atlanta and Montreal pretty well, and, believe me, if you like walking and transit, Montreal is going to introduce you to a whole (better than European) new world you never imagined).
Philly is only interesting for an academic view of how many rail lines can converge, with widely-spaced service times, to provide proportionately pretty good service. I just can't imagine spending any time there without a car.
Do Montreal. It's silly to waste a Delta Airlines ticket on Philly-NYC travel.
You can get to Philadelphia for less than $17 one-way if you're willing to use commuter rail.
I apologize. I realize now you're starting your travel in Atlanta.
(It's your handle, duh!)
OK. I still say Montreal.
Do you speak French?
I can adapt my knowledge in Portuguese to understand French for reading, not a big thing. I was getting pretty good at reading French the last time I was up there. It doesn't matter with speaking, since alomst everyone there speaks English also.
Estimate Montreal as 20 degree Fahrenheit colder than NYC during the winter.
Yesdterday I went to the TMS at Grand Central Station and saw that they now sell Bears with the Subway Line Logos on them. They are the size of the Beany Baby bears. They come in three differt styles, a Black Bear, a White Bear, and a Bear that matchs the color of the line. I was suprise to see that they even have the V and W lines there. I witch they would make the pin with the V and W as well. The price for the Bears are $7.00. I thought they were nice, but I could not bring them home becouse my wife would got mad.
Robert
Come up to BERA, we sell a teddy bear with the shoreline's logo on it. Bears come in different colors, logo is our shoulder patch that can also be bought by itself.
Don't forget your member discout!
I have to go down there again. Time to get a offical #6 Line ring.
Dave,
They aren't selling the rings anymore (well - they are not being displayed).
I don't think anyone really wanted to buy them. Very few people buy the pens (why anyone would want to pay $10 for a pen with the bullet on it is beyond me).
1 line ring here..
So you're the one who bought it
The 1 and the B and the....
I wish they'd bring back the clear glass sets with the subway "signs" on them (white "subway" onback background with various route logos) ... I really liked those and I could use some new ones (they are beginning to feel the effects of multiple dishwashings ....)
--Mark
The web site for the Warehouse Point trolley museum is back online.
So what is your point?
Yuck yuck yuck ...
Seriously It got hit by an attach, like some others that we frequent.
Apparently they've put up an old copy of the file, at least from what I can see on the site.
train #1195 the deadhead from Waterbury Ct picked up Amtrak F40 265 from returning from Guilfords Waterville shop.
the unit had its Turbo replaced. The 265 is on lease to Connecticut Department of Transportation for use on Shoreline East trains.
in a related story 3 Conndot cars normaly assigned to Metro North were transfered to Shoreline east coach 6276 is now 1650. coach 6272 is now 1648 and Cab car 6219 is being modified with ACSES cab signal and will probably be 1699
I'll be going to Philly on Sunday for the PCC trip, thinking of bringing the scanner.
Anyone have the frequencies for SEPTA Trolley's or what they might use on a fan trip?
Do they use the radio a lot in normal opearation?
Thanks in advance.
From what I have observed, The really do not use the radio much...
Speaking of trolley trips, I'll never forget about 2 years ago, We were on a PCC, Peter Witt trip....Well...We were supposed to stay together and we lost the PCC.... We got so far ahead and went down the 34 line and the PCC thought we were on the 10.... Took all day to find each other.......lol
I love those fan trips . I think I was on that one where the 3 trolleys got widely separated. Hey, when's the next trip with the 3 trolleys? I'll be there!!
Chuck Greene
>>>"I think I was on that one where the 3 trolleys got widely separated. Hey, when's the next trip with the 3 trolleys? I'll be there!!"<<<
Don't know if it's the same trip Mark W, was referencing, but we
were on the 3 generation trip and Gary in the "K" car kept a
healthy distance from Richie in the "Peter Witt". At the
conclusion of the trip returning to Elmwood, with the incident
on the 36 route, I think the PCC & Peter Witt returned to
Elmwood via 11 route from Woodlawn and beat us in, even though
we were leading the pack.
;-) Sparky
Heard about a police investigation at Brighton Beach this morning suspending Q trains between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach. Turns out it was some kind of fatal pedestrian accident per the WCBS 880 Web site:
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SUBWAYS: DELAYS CLEARED ON SB "Q" TRAINS:
=POLICE INVESTIGATION CLEARED= AT BRIGHTON BEACH STATION [BROOKLYN].
=FATAL PEDESTRIAN ACCIDENT= AREA OF "BRIGHTON BEACH AVENUE"
@ "BRIGHTON 6 STREET" / NB OK.
Was this another 12-9?
--Mark
I was there around 7:30. When did it happen?
About 8:30 - 8:45. For a while we were being told it was a 12-9. Turned out to be a fatal hit-and-run on the street. The body was so badly mangled, it was thought that she was hit by a train and fell from the structure. Qs were turned at Kings Hway and Prospect Park except for at least one that went to 95 St.
Now you can catch the (B)utterfly train at 7th Avenue and 53rd Street.
Photo by Monica Graff for The New York Times
--Mark
Yea, those damn things are all over the place. They only fined MS the princely sum of $50. STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Microsoft's stock is going to be dropping fast after investors hear about this :-)
Gates will probably go to court to fight it personally.
this is utter bullshit. When graffiti writer 'COST' got caught, he was hit with 62 counts for the big stickers he had in his bag.
the same should go for microsoft. they should be charged 50 for each sticker, and be barred from doing any business with the city.
who the f needs these corporate sc*mbags and their 'advertise everywhere' mentality". certainly not the average citzens, who's tax paying money is going to have to pay for that shits removal.
Here is an article about it:
NYC Orders Microsoft To Remove Decal Ads From City Property
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/021025/0934000393_1.html
The article says they are easily removable. Anyone want to grab one for me? Seriously.
--Brian
It wouldn't be such a bad idea if Microsoft payed NYC incentives to put those stickers up. It could rack some serious needed cash for the budget crisis.
Sure, why not make every piece of City property available for advertising. Then you can see those horrible "wraps" on MTA Buses and the Subways.
In fact why not lease an entire line to one advertiser - the Lexington Av line could be the American Airlines line.
No Thanks!!! We don't need Corporate America putting their name on NYC.
>>> We don't need Corporate America putting their name on NYC. <<<
NYC would be a holdout, since so many other places are selling "naming rights" to everything around. Just think of it. One borough could be renamed "Chase Manhattan." The bank would pay a fortune for that. :-)
Tom
""One borough could be renamed "Chase Manhattan." The bank would pay a fortune for that. :-) ""
I work for that company (now called JP Morgan Chase & Co.) and trust me these days there would eb no interest in doing that.
Really? Then what explains Times Square? As soon as I emerge from the station maze below, I see giant billboards everywhere. Those harmless butterflies wouldn't do much worse.
Well not all butterflies are harmless. Ever see a butterfly dragon clip? Whatever ya do don't bump into one, they could take yer eye out! Oh boy! :-0
All of those billboards were paid for.
Needless to say, "Times Square" is named after the New York Times nespaper.
My mistake. The one time I failed to preview, I failed to spell "newspaper" correctly, though I did change the subject to "Graffiti".
I actually liked the wrap ads. Painted bus sides are not so interesting to look at that they will be missed. It disturbs me to see the MTA removing advertising from stations. The revenue is obviously necessary, so why replace easy money with white tiles (that will probably fall off soon due to bad work).
If Microsuck is allowed to LEAVE their graf in place, I'd consider it an invitation to bring a spray can. :(
I assume the Butterfly takes you to Seatle.
Ha! You made a funny!
Does it do so via the Manny B or the Montague tunnel?
In the news this morning, NY1 to be exact, they said that Microsoft was ordered to remove the butterfly from train station signs.
The should also be ordered to roll them stickers up real tight and put them up the you know what of a certain exec...
That's a scary thing to see entering a subway station, because nothing crashes like Microsoft :-)
That's worth a RIM SHOT!
--Mark
If only the Lexington Ave line had a CTRL/ALT/DEL function during rush hours.
That would be useful with stinky and annoying passengers.
Just hit CTRL+ALT+DEL, click the offending passenger and click END TASK.
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/25deca-mod.jpg
That boost your confidence? :)
Is that THe 7th Avenue Linux?
Looks like Microsoft was here.
I'll be down with a can of paint. :)
Yeah those butterflies are everywhere. But the ones to really watch out for, are really dragon clips.
Oh boy!
If Bill Gates agreed to finance the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, which he is no doubt capable of, I would welcome butterfly logos on every entrance kiosk. The kisoks would replicate the original 1904 ones.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=4065
--Brian
They were almost reluctant to say anything nice about NYC.
Note: Wheaton is confirmed as the longest escalator ride in the Americas.
At least in New York, riders can look out the front of the train. Try doing that in London, Stockholm or Sao Paulo!
Whaaaa?
How could NYC come in last place? How dare they! Oh well, doesn't matter. NYC Subways have a certain flair that no other system can give me.
LOL, why didn't they come out with this two days ago! :-) You're right about flair, thougth, that's my reason for liking it.
It isn't last place, since there are more than 10 subways in the world!
Right. It made the top 10. Even though I feel it whould be at least in the middle of the top 10. These people are clueless.
(Right. It made the top 10. Even though I feel it whould be at least in the middle of the top 10. These people are clueless.)
It depends on what their criteria is. If it is based on ecoomic and social importance, then among North American rail lines the NYC Subway is number one and no one else is in the top ten. If it is based on cost effectiveness, the same is true. The NYC Subway stands alone.
If it is based on comfort, speed and amenity, however, we'd be luck to be in the top 10.
Maybe the former has something to do with the latter. If mass transit is basically a small toy in your region, then you can afford to have very deep subsidies without taxing non-riders very much. Here in NYC, however, those deep subsidies would be enormously costly in the aggregate, given how large the transit system is. So cost is much more of a factor here.
The crowds, and the complexity of the system, slow the trains down -- you can't have an important urban rail line in which everyone gets a seat, but you can have a nice one.
Sao Paulo does have good artwork, the Metro has a section on their site that exhibits all the pieces.
Where's the art? All I see are some strange paintings and a sculpture that looks like a pile of dog doo-doo :-)
(Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... and I didn't behold any.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What, poo-poo (or cocô as we like to say) and stinky feet doesn't impress you? :-)
I'm sure if they had named the "top 10 most interesting urban rail lines", NYC Subway would win in a walk!
b/s, these people are so stupid, its hillarious, giving descriptions, torontos system better then ours? HA! do any of these systems have express service? NO! do any of these systems have the car diversity that NYC do? NO! These people went by art work, not by the importance, who cares about art work? a subway is meant to move people not be art work, so these people are obviously not railfans, they are art fans, and pathetic ones at that!
Boo hoo. The article specifically said artwork. If they wanted to base it on car diversity or express lines, then they would have said so. I like art, so does that mean I can't be a railfan at the same time? The list is a good one for the most part, NYC should be much lower, but NYC always need to be mentioned to make you guys feel special. I know that NYers are the most self-absorbed people in the world, but face facts that there are many (MANY) subways better looking than yours. If NYC was number one, I guarantee that all of you would be talking about how much artwork is important to a system.
Toronto isn't on the list. Read it again carefully, Toronto simply occupies no numbered entry between one and ten. The name of the city at the beginning of the first paragraph sets the location for the newspaper they're referring to - the Globe and Mail.
-Robert King
This list has less credibility than a David Letterman "Top Ten" list. It simply represents the opinion of one person, a newspaper reporter. What are her qualifications to assess the world's urban rail systems? I'll give her credit for obnoxious hubris, but nothing else.
The speedometer in the R-142 cab is visible to the public, though just barely. Close one eye and peek through the hinge. You'll see three bright green lights (assuming the train is moving -- if it's not, why are you looking at the speedometer?). Look above the upper pair of green lights and you'll see a faint orange number. That's it.
I don't know if this works on the R-142A.
Nope. The door assembly is different on the KRC cars.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nycentvr2977661oct25,0,7489710.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dspan%2Dheadlines
This Sunday is the 98th Birthday of the IRT, the 62nd Birthday of Sea Beach Fred and the 47th Birthday of me. Because of the time change our birthdays are 25 hours long this year. Let's make the most of it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have to get a 7:05 flight from JFK to LGB on Sunday morning. What with all the extra time you have to allow, that means I have to leave the house no later than (gulp!) four in the morning. Let me tell you, the end of DST is coming at the perfect time.
ANDEE,
God Bless Us October Babies...more so yours as you share the day,
not the year, separated by a quarter century with Sea Beach Fred.
BTW mines today, two days earlier then SBF, same year.
Bah Humbug on Us All
;-) Sparky
Fred must really feel bad now. If you're older than him, that drops him from being 2nd oldest Subtalker down to 3rd.
Happy Birthday to both men. Three days after them, I too will celebrate a birthday. 27 Years of life, and many more. I should be chartering the R-17 for a party!!! I'll bring the girls, Thurston and Doug can bring the food and drinks....
-Stef
And I share a birthday with you, same day, 32 years apart.
Sorry, 42 years.
That must mean I was born in 1898 :-)
How about 1982??? Bah Humbuggy to yaw. :-)
Sparky
Sparky,
Don't make Sea Beach Fred any older than he is. He is only 15 years older than me NOT a 1/4 century. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Aw c'mon, bro ... let's go for a GEEZERFEST! :)
Happy boithday guyzzzz!
--Mark
October 27 is my birthday as well, 31 Years old.
However we Do Not Change Our Clocks In Arizona. I can only celebrate for 24 Hours.
>>>October 27 is my birthday as well....<<<
Too many damn scorpios around here. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
ANOTHER round for the house! :)
ANOTHER round for the house! :)
Good! I'm just about to go out, I'll have a round for all of you!
Right, but remember that in Fred's case he HATCHED :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Happy Birthday to all!
--Brian
what is the most important line-not your rfavorite but the most used a
E
There is no such thing as a "most important line". Every line is important to those that use it.
And if there is lets tell the whole world where transit employees think the most damage and inconvenience can be done.
I do not think that this is such a hard question (as some may think). Due to bad planning on the part of NYC subway planners, certain lines are more important that others due to bad planning.
In Manhattan without a doubt, it is the Lexington Ave. IRT because there is no other line on the east side. We all know the Second Ave. promises, that is why Lex. is so important.
As for Queen, it is the IND Queens Blvd. (E & F) because Queens is underserved especially in the eastern half of the borough. Queens needs more lines. Until they get them, the Queens Blvd. IND will be the most important line in the borough and perhaps in the whole system.
As for Brooklyn, I think that Brooklyn is well served by the subway system. It is harder to decide, though the trunk line under 4th Ave. (BMT) seems very important.
Bronx: I haven"t been to The Bronx in years, and I do not think I am qualified to say anything about The Bronx.
I would also think the Flatbush Avenue IRT 2/3/4/5 line in Brooklyn is very important as well, along with Manhattan's Lexington Avenue Line, Queens' IND Queens Boulevard Line, and the Bronx' IRT White Plains 2/5 line. The 2/5 line from 241 to 149-GC is very heavily used, as the 4 is, but I think since two very heavy lines converge on the White Plains line, that one is more important (and, sorry to say, the one that's not in the beast shape, I mean, look at all the contruction on the 2/5 line!)...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Hey Peppertree, smart move to say nothing about the Bronx. I made the mistake of uttering a few choice words about the place three years ago and before I knew it I was under a verbal avalanche. In Brooklyn, you are right, the 4th Avenue line is very important, but by that I mean the great Sea Beach which traverses 4th Avenue until it leaves 59th Street. Good to know you have fallen in line on that one.
Next stop on Fred's Sea Beach---20th Avenue.
Most freqeuntly occurring single number or letter line is the 7 with 27 trains per hour.
Most people carried on a single track is the Queens Blvd express (E/F) with 30 chock full B Division trains per hour.
According to the A division timetables, the 7 train runs 26 TPH from 8-9am on weekdays. That's the only daypart that comes close to your claim of 27 TPH. 7-8am is the second busiest, with 25 TPH's.
PM rush you ask?
4-5pm 24 TPH
5-6pm 23 TPH
Your post is very misleading. You make it sound like the 7 runs 27 TPH for an extended period of time during the day.
"You make it sound like the 7 runs 27 TPH for an extended period of time during the day."
Didn't mean to make it sound like that. I meant rush hour. Also, others have said 27, and from the publically available timetables you can't really get exact numbers.
Lexington Ave, Queens Blvd and Fourth Ave (including it's branches, West End and Sea Beach). Loss of one of these lines would be catastrophic.
I think Chris phrases the response better than the original question.
It is not which line is the most important, but rather, which line would cause the greatest detriment if it were out of service?
Every line is important to those who use it, and how can you say some passengers are more important than others?
However, the loss of certain lines would be more devastating than the loss of others.
The converse to this question also applies.
The loss of which line, in your opinion, would cause the least detriment to the City?
To make things interesting, shuttles don't count.
Matt
"The loss of which line, in your opinion, would cause the least detriment to the City?"
Of any seriously significant line (i.e., not the Dyre Ave spur or similar branch line) I'd have to say the J/M/Z, because it has the lowest load, and there are so many alternatives (A/C, L, Queens Blvd). But even the loss of that line would cause serious trouble with overcrowding on all the bus lines as people found alternate routes, and even worse overcrowding on the E.
The Lexington Ave IRT, because hell would break loose if that line went out of service.
I think it's the A, since it's the longest. It gets pretty crowded as well.
Illinois to test 110-mph operation next week
The Illinois Department of Transportation will run an Amtrak train at 110 mph on October 31 to test a completed section of the positive train control system on a high-speed route being readied between Springfield and Dwight, Ill.
The train ?two caf?cars and one coach with a P42 on each end ?will sprint between Normal and Ballard siding, just north of Lexington, Ill., said John Schwalbach, chief of the bureau of railroads for IDOT. It is expected to reach 110 mph for five or six miles of its 16-mile run, he said.
The runs will evaluate the PTC system’s location determination system, Schwalbach said. No other tests are planned for this year.
The testing comes amid news that the project is several months behind schedule. Officials initially had hoped to have improvements to the Union Pacific-owned line ready this month.
Virtually all track and grade-crossing protection improvements necessary for 110-mph running have been completed, Schwalbach said. But the PTC system, being built by Lockheed-Martin, won’t be ready until July or August. Then IDOT can seek Federal Railroad Administration approval before beginning 110-mph operation.
“Most of the delays are making sure that we’ve got all the safety issues covered,?Schwalbach said. “You would expect it. It comes as no surprise to anyone who has been involved in managing a project of this complexity.?lt;P>
IDOT expects to begin 110-mph service using conventional Amtrak equipment. Chicago-St. Louis transit times will be reduced to about 4 hours, 45 minutes from the current 5.5 hours under 79-mph operation, IDOT says.
The bidding process is on hold for new trainsets that feature more amenities and faster acceleration than conventional Amtrak trains, Schwalbach said. Amtrak’s financial condition is partly to blame.
Is IDOT interested in the 150-mph JetTrain turbine-electric locomotive and train being built by Bombardier?
“At first blush, it fits the bill,?Schwalbach said. “But we’re not in the position at this point in Illinois to say this is what we need. Is that out there as a potential candidate? Sure it is.?lt;P>
Eventually, IDOT hopes to extend the 110-mph running from Springfield to St. Louis as part of the nine-state Midwest High Speed Rail Initiative.
Amtrak to add seventh round trip to Hiawatha corridor
Amtrak will add a round trip to Hiawatha service beginning Sunday night, October 27, bringing to seven the peak number of daily round trips linking Chicago and Milwaukee.
The new trains will be the first morning departure and the last evening run between Chicago and Milwaukee, Amtrak and the Wisconsin Department of Transportation announced Tuesday. They’ll operate Monday through Saturday. The Sunday schedule will remain at six round trips.
Train 329 will depart Chicago at 6 a.m. and arrive in Milwaukee at 7:29 a.m. Train 342 will depart Milwaukee at 7:30 p.m. and arrive Chicago at 8:59 p.m.
Adding the round trip will actually enable Amtrak to operate the Hiawatha corridor with two trainsets instead of the current three. The current six round trips required the use of three trainsets to correctly position the equipment to meet the timetable. By adding the seventh round trip, Amtrak will use two trainsets that are rotated more frequently.
...WHAT IS A POSITIVE TRAIN CONTROL SYSTEM?
PTS is a system that can stop a train that blows a stop and stay signal.
Note the 16 mile run with '5 or 6' miles of 110mph running. Gotte love US rail equipment acceleration.
With that kind of performance, what's the point of 110mph, since you don't attain it long enough to make a difference anyway?
PTS is a system that can stop a train that blows a stop and stay signal.
You forgot "At Speed". All Railroad ATS/ATC systems allow for permissive operation.
Note the 16 mile run with '5 or 6' miles of 110mph running. Gotte love US rail equipment acceleration.
Even P42's aren't that bad. The problem probably comes from the fact that there are PSR's on most of the test segment due to either grade crosings or curves.
Also note that the article stated that it will reach 110mph for the FIRST 5 or 6 miles, so acceleration is not the constraint here.
Try readnig.
"With that kind of performance, what's the point of 110mph, since you don't attain it long enough to make a difference anyway? "
The article indicates that an hour will be cut off the schedule.
But you asked that question only because it was obnoxious regarding Amtrak, not because you had anything valuable to say.:0)
The article indicates that an hour will be cut off the schedule.
NY to Boston in three hours?
(ducking and running)
Finally a High Speed Diesel Trainset with P42's at each end.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
P42's at each end,is great!I remember seeing 2 NEC P42 pullin a metroliner train set at around 110mph
R142A#7211
U KNOW
A.M.L
"The Illinois Department of Transportation will run an Amtrak train at 110 mph on October 31 to test a completed section of the positive train control system on a high-speed route being readied between Springfield and Dwight, Ill."
The real question here is not "Is this practical for long-term operation?" or "What are the technological barriers to be overcome?" or "Will Amtrak be able to fund such a major project?"
The real question is "Who the hell wants to go to Dwight, Illinois?"
-Frank Hicks
big fan of Pete's Family Restaurant, Dwight, IL
Does anyone know any of the "Miss Subways" contestants, or have any
of the posters? I want to contact some of them and do a "Miss Subways" tee shirt series. I'm sure some of us still remember this
promotion. It went on for many years!
Speak with the folks at the "Transit Museum". When they did the
silver jubilee in 2001, there was a Miss Subways present.
Also seasoned enough to remember Miss Subways, Miss Rheingold
and the Bums in Brooklyn...etc.
;-) Sparky
Boy or boy, you really opened a can of corn with that one. I do remember a Mary Austin of Brooklyn, Miss Rheingold 1952. I used to spend hours looking at pictures of her at a time when I had no interest in girls whatsoever. But Miss Austin was a beauty and very easy on the eyes. I often wonder what ever happened to her.
You should contact Ellen Hart Sturm.
She was a former Miss Subways and is the owner of Ellen's Stardust Diner. The restaurant is at 1650 Broadway. The entrance looks like a RedBird subway car. I know she is very big on promoting the old Miss Subways campaign. She is usally in touch with other winners of the honor. (Note: I do not know her personally but have seen here at many Transit Museum functions).
http://www.ellensstardustdiner.com/
I have spoken with her on the phone, but she is too busy running her
business to be helpful. I know the feeling! She mentioned that I would need their permission, so I'm trying to find some of them so I could begin that process!
Good instincts, Allan!
>>> I have spoken with her on the phone, but she is too busy running her business to be helpful
You should still visit the restaurant. Perhaps the personal touch will help. Of course you will need permission to use the images, but she is a place to start, even if she just gives you a list of names of Miss Subways. She is a former Miss Subway and has a wall full of pictures of other Miss Subways. In 1985 she staged a campaign event with a group of former Miss Subways.
BTW Miss Subways ran from 1941-1969, so there are plenty of monthly winners to choose from.
Tom
This afternoon while I was at 14 Street, I saw R142-6717 OOS leading the rest of the train through the station heading northbound with the first car's guard light nice and bright. At least those don't break. Let me guess, defected door by Bombardier?
Those cars should be scrapped and rebuilt. Those cars simply suck!
Give me a smelly redbird over those pieces of junk anyday.
#8869 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Luckily I don't have to pass through the Grand Central subway station that much anymore, but today I happened to be there around 4pm. I don't understand it. There were huuuuge lines for the token booths, yet there were empty and working metrocard vending machines which nobody was using. Is there something that people need to wait on line at the token booth for that they can't get at the machines? Or maybe these people don't want to learn how to use them? What am I missin' here?
The Customer feels the MVM might go out of service on them.
The customer feels the MVM is jammed and will steal their money.
The customer likes to talk to a live clerk instead of their reflection in the mirror.
The customer might have a question to ask the clerk.
The customer doesn't know how to use the MVM.
The customer doesn't want to use the MVM.
Alot and alot more reasons.
>>Alot and alot more reasons.<<
The customer swears by tokens and refuses to use the MVM.
Bill "Newkirk"
I aint giving the GOVERNMENT my money in ADVANCE!! I will buy one token at a time when I need to use the Bus or Subway.
THE GOVERNEMENT IS NOT GETTING MY MONEY!!!
"I aint giving the GOVERNMENT my money in ADVANCE!!"
Suit yourself. If you take one round trip ride a week, then in 11 weeks you could pay $30 if you're willing to pay in two advance installments, or $33 if you're not.
Basically, the MTA is willing to pay you $1.50 interest on what amounts on average to a loan of $15 for an average duration of 2.75 weeks. That comes out to an annual interest rate of 190%. It's not easy to get that rate anywhere else unless you're a loan shark who breaks legs.
Riiiight...and when you ride the train 3 times or more in one day you could have just bought a FunPass.
That's a non sequitur. You can buy a single ride card from the MVMs for the same price as a token. And since you don't want to give the govt your money one second before you have to, it doesn't matter that the single ride cards must be used within 2 hours.
The reason they buy tokens is durability. I have seen them bend cards right after walking away from the booth and then gripe when I cant refund the transaction (due to a six minute, no intervening transcation rule.)
They do not understand how to care for a MetroCard and wont buy a holder sold at many news stands for $2 or $3. Theyo have trouble swiping cards or with the fare being deducted and all they saw was "SWIPE AGAIN HERE".
Tokens are dropped and that is final (in their minds).
They also mistrust the machines- no change given, wont take bills or coins, eats their money and no cards, etc.
I myself like new tech but I dont like the machines. I keep a commercial MetroCard to ride if my pass wont work or if I need a reentry quicker than the time period and there is no emergency gateor if I want to pay for a friend or angry customer. Once I tried to trade in my card at a MVM . It took my money off my card and said I could not trade in the card. I wound up with an empty card losing $35!
NYC does not like being told "You must do ..." Even if there is no train service I have to tell them "You can do this... You can wait here until..."
Look at the Post Office Banks and some supermarkets. You can use ATMs, stamp machines,self-serve chaeckouts or you can use the human. You have the choice. They'd rather pay more and use the token.I have many people buying ten tokens. I tell therm, " You could get eleven rides instead fo ten if you buy a card." I cannot print the reply I get and no longer ask. They want tokens, I give tokens.
When the ten packs came out there were still people that worked 5 days at a good salary that would buy a trip or day at a time. I asked one and they said they did not want to waste money if they died. I forgot that when you dies all your tokens and metrocards disappear.
Yeah same here... death doesn't bother me at all... it's what happens to the $10 left on my metrocard after I kick off... :P
Sometimes it doesn't pay to augue the benefits of Metrocards over tokens. They want the token, I give them one. I chuckle sometimes when people ask me for the transfer that can only come from a card.
In that case, I'm amazed that people like that are willing to slide their money through the clerk's slot BEFORE the clerk slides the token through the slot back at them.
I'm amazed that people buy tokens in the first place, as opposed to jamming 30 nickels into the token slot.
I have seen people trying to jam turnstiles with coins. I tell them if they have a token and they red-faced buy a token or jump . While we are seeing fewer, we still get some foreign coins registering as tokens. (We have to send the coins in as "slugs, foreign tokens, etc." and they adjust the turnstiles.
If we see someone jamming tursntiles we call police althoug most are long gone by the time the police respond.
Once when the fare was 50 Cents, there were turnstiles in the system (one to each station) that would only take 2 quarters. But back then, as now, people would not look where they were putting their money. Many times a customer would put a token in the slot, the turnstile would eject the token in the return cup. The turnstile would now allow the person entry. And while the customer would run to the booth to complain, people would go to the turnstile and take the tokens out of the cups. Sometimes jam the regular turnstiles around it so people would go to it.
It must be the same reason that so many people still don't have EZ Passes?
That's an even greater mystery. At least for a metrocard you only have to wait on line once every 10 or 20 rides. Without an EZPass, you have to wait every time (or twice per ride, if you're taking the controlled section of the Turnpike or Thruway).
If you have an EZ Pass the government can track your movements. What if you needed to commit a crime? Wouldn't you want that option open to you? The came arguement can hold for MetroCards. They are untracable, are valid forever and provide for a fast getaway.
>>arguement can hold for MetroCards. They are untracable, are valid forever
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
Metrocards are not untraceable. Each have a serial number and their movements can be tracked. They also expire a year or so after you buy them, all have experiation dates on the back.
Check your facts.
UGHHGH
EZ Pass is trackable because you must open an account to use it, the EZ Pass is attatched to a name, a person. Metrocards are untraceable because they have no idea who is using the Metrocard. They can trace the usage, but have no idea who is using it.
Unless it's in your wallet when it's "apprehended" ... but yes, EZPass (FastLane for you Massachussetts folk) is a "people tracker" but then the folks who do those things usually also have "On*Star" in their car, and for tracking, don't get any better than GPS. Paranoids have enemies too ya know. :)
And truth be told, I really don't care if they can trace my EZPass. If the government has nothing better to do than watch that I took a weekend trip to Connecticut by going across the Throgs Neck bridge and I95, (and went to a McDonald's drive-thru using that EZ Pass), more power to them. Who cares.
Now I would assume a criminal would be smart enough to use the cash lane. But I've seen dumber criminals than that.
For many of us, it's still irksome. Much like the spam you get in your inbox before you have time to surf or get into email you actually WANTED. I don't like being tracked if it means I'm going to be bombarded with "personalized ads" from folks I'd like to choke. But it is a scary concept to many of us who were around for COINTELPRO and other wastes of taxpayer money in the '60's ...
But yeah, crims ain't too bright, they'll readily give themselves up. But then I also think of situations where those tracks from Metrocards have been used against employees and also by divorce lawyers. I play the straight and narrow, but there's many who aren't breaking laws but still wouldn't want their whereabouts known to anyone willing to pay for it. GOVERNMENT is required to follow privacy procedures and follow the law, that's why government lets out contracts to others who are NOT bound by those limitations. THAT'S what worries ME.
At least EZPass is very up front about it. They say they don't do anything to track you, but if they get a subpoena for your records they will hand them over.
I believe them. I have never gotten any spam or commercial paper mailings as a result, even though they have my mail and email addresses.
I believe Metrocards have the same policy. No tracking unless they get a subpoena or see a pattern of fraud.
There's far worse invasions of privacy to worry about, such as the rampant use of Soc Sec numbers making identity theft really easy.
Absolutely. Only reason I mentioned it is that many folks weren't aware that EZPass and its similar "microwave interrogator tags" are able to be tracked and contain an embedded serial number. On a technological basis, just like cell phones where there were kids with receivers picking up ID numbers to use for fraud, "enterprising" types COULD emit an interrogation signal and retrieve the response with a pretty simple microwave lashup. At one point, it was planned to use the on-board memory to store driving record and other data that would be useful to police in conducting "spot checks" but was never enabled. The devices COULD handle this though if they were to change their minds.
Once again, I'm not a paranoid type myself, I live a rather boring life. But I thought folks might be interested in what these things CAN do since it appeared pretty clear that many didn't know this before.
if you wish SOMEONE to track your every move, be my guest. However, as there are "private" sorters and resellers of data--your purchasaing habits down to what sort of food you buy (can you imahine being healthcare blacklisted because you show up as a mega consumer of high cholesterol foods?)the whole picture is very ugly in my view. How about having your personal video rental patterns sold yo some marketer. And as to government "wasting its time" tracking individuals, think about the massive drop in the cost of computing power. Each of us has here at home more than the average 360 of the mid 70's which did paytoll and much more for large co's. BTW in Switzerland the cell phone GPS link is already available to police WITHOUT a call to 911--its just a part of the package. Some of us of a certain age remember not only COINTELPRO, but McCarthy era snoping from the era when most big city PD's had a "red squad".
"When they took away the _____, I was not worried, when they took away the _____m I did nothing, when they came for me there was noone left to defend me." (with apologies for poor paraphrasing.)
That poor paraphrasing came from a German Minister who opposed Hitler in the 1940's. I forget his name. But someone else in here likely knows it.
That poor paraphrasing came from a German Minister who opposed Hitler in the 1940's. I forget his name. But someone else in here likely knows it.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He later died in a concentration camp.
Why do people wait on queues? Well it's the same dumb mentality that people do not want direct deposit of their pay cheques. They would rather get that piece of paper, wait on a queue to deposit part of their pay into their chequing accounts to pay their bills and take back some cash. When you tell them it makes much more sense to direct deposit it and visit your bank's ATM to pull out the cash you need at your own leisure, they look at you like you're crazy.
Years ago, I saw the same thing. I was waiting to see a bank officer and listened to him explaining to an elderly lady that a statement savings account would pay 5% (a long time ago right) interest while if she insisted on the bank book, she would only get 4.5%. She insisted she had to have the bank book. And of course, I am sure she waited on a queue the first of each quarter to see the interest posted in the bank book.
Oh well, maybe there are still people who crank their phones to get an operator to make phone calls.
The banking thing among those who grew up in the 30's and early 40's is somewhat understandable after people lost everything when banks went under. My folks are from that era and they have a fundamental distrust for banks. They like having a passbook for their bank accounts because it "proves" how much they have on deposit at any given time. Similarly, they like tokens -- they get a ride for each one -- don't have to trust someone to hold your cash for you.
To people from that era Cash is King (and tokens are cash). In many ways today, with deflation fears and bear markets and possible real estate bubbles some will tell you that Cash is once again King.
CG
If you SEE your paycheck every week it is much easier to catch and fix errors. If one day you look through your account and you find youself missing $ from some transaction 2 months ago you are going to have to go through a pile of shit to deal with it.
Makes no sense...you get a stub even when you have direct deposit. So you see a mistake....do you give them back the cheque? The money is there and goes in and you can check the stub to see if it is proper. So that is not a reason not to use direct deposit.
True, but most direct deposit agreements give the payors the right to withdraw the deposit if they think it is in error without warning you ahead of time. This can lead you to bounce checks if you don't know what's happening.
To be fair, the incidence of that kind of problem is very small.
You still recieve a check stub when you direct deposit.
Just because you direct deposit it does not mean that you don't take a look at you bank statement online or the printed statement at the end of the month
some of us prefer physical checks because of the "business day" dating fraud engaged in by banks. It is also highy useful when confronting the "why haven't you paid this bill?" crap in the instances where gasp! the vendor's accounting has failed to credit your payment.
As to Metrocards themselves, when I visit, I buy a weekly, but I buy from the clerk because the first two (and only) times I tried an MVM it stole my money. The ever so useful booth clerk rattled off a phone number to call--really useful for a tourist. BART agents by contrast, can open TVM's retrieve yout money. This may relate to BART having used TVM's from the begining.
Queues? Cheques? You must be from England.
Whose Queue Is It Anyway?
Don't know but when I took high school geometry, I was taught a line is an undefined term. I don't see how you can ever wait on a line...most of the time when I look down I don't see any line drawn on the ground. Therefore the term queue is much more appropriate.
I know. I'm just fooling with you.
It's funny, but I hardly ever hear "queues" instead of "line" in everyday talk, although in England "queues" is the more common word. The same for the spelling of "check". But then again, in England they have harbours instead of harbors also, etc.
And they have lifts instead of elevators...and terrible labour relations....and the word lieutenant spelled that way is pronounced leftenant....and they have tyres instead of tires and petrol instead of gasoline. But most importantly, they use the much more proper celsius temperature scale than the stupid farenheit one, their liquid measure is in terms of liters instead of pints, quarts and gallons; weights are measured in grams and kilograms instead of pounds. About the only thing they still agree with us about is the use of miles instead of kilometers (even Canada has junked use of the mile). In all these ways, our country is so backward and out of touch with the rest of the world....
We wait in lines because sometimes we have to. Let me tell that waiting in line is a real pisser, especially when the guy in front of you ends up talking up a storm and wastes everyone's time while the rest of us just seeths. It is especially maddening in a bank, grocery store or at an amusement park. It seems that I get more than my share of boobs who end up making me good and teed off. My wife is always uncomfortable when she is with me and this stuff happens. She knows I could go off at any second, but I have been able to cool is when she is with me. When she's not the people in front of me had better take the rest of us into consideration because I'll say what's on my mind. Five will get you ten most of us feel as I do on this score.
Wonderful place, the UK, I will be coming back again to visit probably next year, thoroughly enjoyed my stay, and the LU and BR the IOW 38 tube stock, everything was simply smashing, as they say.
wayne
Well, have a bloody good time next year.
Pardon my ignorance but what was COINTELPRO?
Moo and howdy! They wouldn't have told you since NYPD was considered by old "Jedgar" to have been fully compromised and untrustworthy pinkos. :)
COINTELPRO is an acronym for the FBI's domestic "counterintelligence programs" to neutralize political dissidents. ... There's a historical site on it here, won't jeopardize yer retirement checking it out, I promise. Heh. It's a genuine eyeopener though as to how J Edgar Hoover (who could knock them dead when wearing his black teddy and high heels) laid the groundwork for our current Ashcroft ...
http://www.cointel.org/
Thanks, the website and its links were very interesting.
Yeah, they even wasted money on *ME* ... heh. And with me hanging out with my buddies from the 52 at the local gin mill after hours, I'm sure the station commander was busy entertaining the same clowns as well. I'll never forget the day when I had NYTEL out to the house because I couldn't get a dialtone and the installer told me that there were SO many wiretaps on my phone, there wasn't enough current left for the damned phone to WORK. :)
You did lead a charmed life for a while there, didn't you Kevin ?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. It had something to do with working at WBAI at the time. :)
It dosen't work if you use the cash lane. If you use EZ Pass every day and suddenly on one day you don't and its the day your wife/bussiness partner died then what do you think the cops will think. Its how they got a guy on Law and Order.
>>> If the government has nothing better to do than watch that I took a weekend trip to Connecticut by going across the Throgs Neck bridge and I95, (and went to a McDonald's drive-thru using that EZ Pass), more power to them. Who cares. <<<
You sound very much like those who say "I don't care if the police want to search my house, I have nothing to hide." Unfortunately, sometimes very innocent things are twisted by those seeking to prove a hypothesis into damning evidence.
Tom
And isn't it his right to say that? If he wants to take that risk in return for time (shorter and faster lines at toll plazas) and money (E-ZPass discounts), why shouldn't he?
Anonymous E-ZPasses should be available, perhaps at less of a discount than regular E-ZPasses -- but nobody's forced to get E-ZPass at all, so what's the big deal?
>>> then the folks who do those things usually also have "On*Star" in their car <<<
I was also reading awhile back of proposed standards for new cell phones to be wired with GPS so callers to 911 can be located. And if I am not mistaken, some of the automobiles struck by rockets from Israeli helicopters were identified by cell phone transmissions. Big Brother may already be watching you. :-)
Tom
>>>"Metrocards are untraceable because they have no idea who is using the Metrocard. They can trace the usage, but have no idea who is using it."<<<
On the contrary, not ALL Metrocards are untraceble to its user.
Senior and Disability Metro Cards are for the user only with
a photo of the user, same as the Employee Metrocards.
Also, if you subscribe to "Mail 'n Ride" Metrocard, only available
to Senior and Disability Metro Cards at this time, you receive a
STATEMENT OF USAGE monthly, same as EZ Pass. You also pay in
advance and receive the discounting after $15 is applied. Works
the same as EZ Pass, a monthly usage pattern is established and
deducted from a Charge Card or other options as requested by the
user.
The kicker to the whole thing is, the "Mail n Ride" Center for
NYCTA is in Secaucus, NEW JERSEY and operated by CHASE Bank.
Mrs. Sparky is eligible for the program, so this is FIRST PERSON
Information.
;-) Sparky
I recall an arrest in the Daily News 6 months back of a perp who used a stolen credit card to purchase a metrocard at a machine in order to sell rides. His metrocard transaction was recorded, and the card found on his person told how it was purchased.
True. I forgot about all the "special" metrocards out there.
I would imagine that a Metrocard bought with a credit card is traceable to the purchaser. Metrocards bought through one's employer using Wageworks are sequentially numbered and it would be easy to keep track of who received a particular card.
Hey! This is directly related to our thread!!
METROCARD CLEARS SUSPECT
That's a nice story. I love happy endings.
--Brian
>>> That's a nice story. I love happy endings. <<<
Happy ending???
The man spent 60 days in jail before being cleared. (He probably will not have to worry about cashing a paycheck for a while.)
Although he told the police right away that he had been in the Bronx at the time of the robbery cashing his paycheck, it was his lawyer who finally uncovered the Metrocard record and the paycheck. (Think about that when telling lawyer jokes.)
It seems when the police were investigating this crime, they looked only at the evidence which supported the guilt of the person they believed to be guilty, and did not follow up on exculpatory evidence. :-(
Tom
That's what happens when you run. It does nasty things to your credibility.
I wonder where the card and the paycheck were all that time.
The poster, J***Y Mike said that metrocards are untraceable and felons would use it. Which is pure bull, since the idea behind metrocards is you use it more than once right?
Hence said felon would 99% of the time have said card on said person when captured by our great law enforcement departments. Running said metrocard serial number will get the travel information of that felon. Swiping at a subway stop right near a bank this felon robbed could be used agianst the poor felon. So how is a metrocard untraceable?
So if I was Mr. Mike and was out and about to commit a felony, I would use a token and make sure I had gloves on before I touched it. Now that is untraceable if you ask me.
Sorry, I meant to say TOKENS!
>>>What if you needed to commit a crime?<<<
Why would anyone have a NEED to commit a crime?
Peace,
ANDEE
Any one of us could find ourselves in a situation where we have done or need to do something illegal. Don't say it could never happen to you because it can. If it does wouldn't you like to be able to get away with your crime?
At first I thought you were crazy for saying something like that, but now that I think of it, what if you break a future unjust law?
Hell, what if you break a PRESENT unjust law? Like riding the subway to purchase "illegal" substances.
SPARE me
Peace,
ANDEE
I *know* the marijuana party has candidates in Vermont and New York. Maybe you might want to check with the League of Women Voters to see if the party can be voted for in Joisey. Enough votes, the smoking lamp MIGHT be lit. :)
[What if you needed to commit a crime? Wouldn't you want that option open to you?]
Sounds like an argument that was made when Transit first installed the MetroCard turnstiles: While the ACT of jumping the turnstile is illegal, the ABILITY to do so is a pre-existing right which cannot be summarily taken away without due process.
So you're entitled to a trial before somebody pumps a bullet into each kneecap.
:0)
They can also track your movement by checking your credit card activity as well. AND, if they really wanted to, if you have a cellphone, its possible for your provider to determine which cell you are currently in and approximately track your location.
I used to wonder also why someone wouldn't get an EZ Pass then a freind at work told me he goes to a girlfriend in Staten Island twice a week and wouldn't know how to explain to his wife all the Verrazano entries on the bill.
There has been a commercial about an EZ Pass "shield" that would allow him to travel to Staten Island via the Verrazano without using the pass. He'd have to pay a cash toll. But at least there would be no bill at the end of the month showing him using it twice a week.
An amusing tangential story. A friend was riding in someone else's car, and had his EZPass in a bag in the back seat (but didn't remember it was there). The driver tried to pay cash at the GW Bridge and the toll taker told him the toll was already paid by EZPass. Big mystery till he remembered the EZPass in his bag.
So at least the GWB readers will sense an EZpass even when it's not out front.
I thought that plastic folder that the EZ Pass comes with suits that purpose. At least the instructions say to put the EZ Pass in the folder when you want to pay cash.
I heard the commercial on 1010 WINS about 3 months ago. I don't know if the folder or the "shield" works.
Well the folder is free, it comes with the EZ Pass. They say to keep it in the folder if you want to pay cash and it won't register.
I see this at Penn Station every day. Some people just have a hard time adapting to anything new, I guess.
Same thing with Dollar coins. People are creatures of habit. If you change something you are very familiar with (Tokens, Dollar bills, dial phones) they refuse to change because (1) the new is not what they've used forever) and (2) they don't understand the reason for changing it.
It's also a generation thing. The longer someone has been on the planet, the harder for them to accept the new. I know people in their 70's and 80's who still have dial phones. It's a little bit of a shocker to see a senior with a cell phone, but that's changing.
>>>"It's also a generation thing. The longer someone has been on the planet,
the harder for them to accept the new."<<<
If something that has worked for generations is still working,
why fix it??? Just like a "Streetcar" >G<
>>>"I know people in their 70's and 80's who still have dial phones."<<<
Beg pardon, you know some folks in their fifties & sixties that
still have dial phones. In our abode in Brooklyn, four units
are of the dial variety. Three are button type. Older three
story attached residence and the wiring is hidden in the walls
and they WORK, so why??? Couldn't upgrade to DSL without complete
rewiring of phones. Not worth the effort, now AOL has call altert,
so problem is solved, without big HASSLE.
Also the in house telephone system at Branford is DIAL.
;-) Sparky
The LIAR still uses manual crank phones for Train -> Tower communications. US Navy ships all have a voice powered phone system for backup communications in case power is lost.
There is an old auto garage in Denver specializing in speedometer and radio repair that still uses rotary phones.
And to think my high school in Jersey had touch tone pay phones 30 years ago while their office phones were still rotary.
Memories: The first place that I ever saw a touch tone phone:
They were all over the place at the 1964-5 World's Fair; Flushing, Queens. If you wanted to make a 10 cents payphone call, it was with touch tone.
I was at the fair on July 20, 1965. Unfortunately, I don't remember seeing any touch tone phones. I do remember part of a recorded announcement at entrance from the subway and LIRR: "Welcome to the New York World's Fair. Please have your tickets...." My strongest recollection is holding my father's hand all day long. At one point, I mentioned my hand was getting tired and my father stuck out his thumb for me to hold on to. My folks insisted we hold their hands so we wouldn't get separated, and it worked. We had to go by my watch when it came time to catch a return train to Penn Station because my father's watch quit working after he lost the windup-reset knob earlier during our trip. Some of the things we saw were folk dancing at the Mexican pavilion, the lone Lithuanian artifact (a cross), the Santa Maria, riding on the Swiss Sky Ride and rubber tire Ferris wheel (my father worked for US Rubber at the time), visiting Dinoland, and seeing the porpoise show at the Marina. IIRC we didn't see the Belgian Village, nor did we go up in the State Towers.
While I don't remember seeing what was left of Penn Station, I do remember the announcer's voice booming over the loudspeakers. Our train to Linden left on Track 2.
I think the first time I ever saw a touch tone phone was on the Mary Tyler Moore Show. My sister had a book on how to play tunes on what was then known as a push button phone.
I remember the Dual Tone Multi Frequency phones...I may have one or two original replacements for the last rotary dial phones...also two sixteen button phones used by DOD on their network. Remember the electronic ring of the phones on the motion picture 'Failsafe?'
My mother worked for AT&T Long Lines and wrote up all the nationwide orders for PicturePhone service, including the 1964/65 Worlds Fair.
Each PicturePhone circuit required the equivalent of eight voice circuits...far long before digital processing. Just look at what we can do on internet with ONE dial-up voice circuit. CI Peter
>>> I know people in their 70's and 80's who still have dial phones <<<
I first saw touchtone at the New York World's Fair, but I did not switch to touchtone from dial until the local telephone company removed the premium they were charging for touchtone service and supplied the new touchtone sets free of charge about 1980.
Tom
At the '64-'65 World's Fair there was also picture phone. It seems that only now is it beginning to seem likely to happen.
Oh God no....picture phones! Who needs 'em?
Peace,
ANDEE
My Grandmom still had a working Bakalite rotary phone that dated from the early 1950's. It was still in service up until the day we sold the house in 2001. The phone didn't have a standard wall plug, so we had to physically unhook all the wires, but some day, in my house or appartment I will hook this baby back up and use it. I mean this is the coolest phone ever. It will probably remain functional until the sun explodes and the reciever is so massive that you can either use it to call people or beat intruders to death. We also have a more modern Rotary phone from the 70's.
BTW, if you ever lok at your phone bill, we all still pay a premimum for Touchtone Service.
BTW, if you ever lok at your phone bill, we all still pay a premimum for Touchtone Service.
Depends on where you live. My New Jersey (Verizon) bill shows an additional $1 per month for touchtone, but my North Carolina (Sprint) bill no longer lists it as a separate item. And if I had AT&T local service in New Jersey (which I will once they offer one feature - Call Intercept - that Verizon does and they don't) there would be no separate charge for touchtone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Verizon is one of the BETTER givers of political vigorish. In THEIR territory, all things are possible. Except for DSL or T1 ... that's why Paturkey and the Bruno keep telling us jobs are on the way, because we're "TEKK VALLEE" ... but STILL can't get DIALTONE ... whoops. Yep, we're thoroughly MODERN on the Paturkey Farm ... 26k baud, woohoo! Even the PAPER MILLS are leaving because they can't get a dialtone up here, but we'se thoroughly modern. We gots INDOOR PLUMBING! (where available)
Touchtone fees still apply - we'se MODERN! Don't need no fruitcake substitutes for cranking that wank ... as long as it's BRUNO's crank. And da Paturkey, his butt buddy who gives Joey EVERYTHING ...
And in Baltimore (any most likely everywhere else in Maryland) Verizon has dropped the Touch-Tone charge, at least on my current bill.
As to JM's comment, I have on my desk downstairs a fully working WE 302 set (the first tabletop phone to have the network/ringer inside the case as opposed to the network/ringer in a wall box) with a dial.
(What's Touch-Tone in 1932?) However dialing 10 digits on a rotary dial is no fun and not fast, due to the dial's delay in returning to the starting position.
No problem, just get a handheld tone generator.
Actually, about 10 years ago I had to get one. Reason, to prevent people from trying to use alternative long distance services, NY Telephone, a predecessor of Verizon. on many of its pay phones would shut the tones off after you dialed into an alternate long distance service.
Also, my answering machine needed a long toot of the tone on the codes to activate. The tones were too short to be recognized by the answering machine. I also used to have this problem when calling back to my answering machine from Europe although that problem has been solved by the use of cell phones in Europe along with call forwarding....
I don't think it was NYTel that did this. All of the NYTel/NYNEX/Bell Atlantic/Verizon phones that I have used haven't had this problem, but some of those no name phones do.
10-digit dialing is an abomination that should be eliminated. There is absolutely no reason one should not be able to direct dial within one's own area code.
Not only that it is delaying the enevitable switch to 8 primary phone digits. 8 digits would increase the # of #'s by an order of magnituge, area codes just add a constant amount.
The reason is so that people who are forced for example to get a 347 area code will not feel inferior to people with a 718 area code. Everybody is made to suffer rather than just the people stuck with the unpopular new area code. That is the advantage of this over a split where for example Brooklyn would get a new area code while queens is allowed to keep 718. That was what was done originally in 1986 when Bkln, Queens and SI were split off from 212 and 718 was first imposed. The people in Manhattan and the Bronx were allowed to keep their numbers while the people in Brooklyn, Queens and SI had to go to the expense of re writing stationery, business cards and the like. The excuse then was basically more out of towners call into Manhattan than to the other boroughs so it was fair that Manhattanites did not have to suffer the expenses of what was done.
In the years since then, the thinking has been that the overlay is better as people can keep their original numbers and do not have to re-do their stationary and business cards. New subscribers with new numbers get the new area codes so they have no stationery to re-do. But along with that has to come some give and take so within your own household, you might have a 718 number and another area code (I forget if it's 347 or 646 for Brooklyn) so rather than have people try to remember it probably does make sense to force everybody to dial the area code...ths increases the number of telphone number available to a larger extent. With the continued proliferation of fax machines, cell phones and pagers, it's just a matter of time before they will need another overlay area code and another and another....
This "suffering" is exaggerated. Most numbers that the average person dials are the same numbers, over and over again, where you can just program a speed dialing system. For many of those numbers that you have to manually dial, many will be long distance anyway.
In the past, there was 4, 5 and 6-digit dial. I'm sure that those used to dialing just the station number might complain about having to dial the exchange. At least now you have speed dial and push button phones.
In the past, there was 4, 5 and 6-digit dial.
And it wasn't in the far distant past either (indeed, it was within your lifetime)... until June 1982 we had a combination of 4, 5, and 1 digit dialing at our home in North Carolina... four digits for other numbers on the Spring Hope exchange, five digits for the Nashville and Rocky Mount exchanges, and one digit - 0 - for everything else. (Touch tone service and private lines had arrived six months earlier.) And we actually kept the 4 and 5 digit dialing capability for another four years or so, but at least we were able to direct dial long distance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It makes no sence for everyone to suffer when a subset of those suffering can be made not to suffer at no added cost to the rest. Furthermore, this country has always been about first come first serve. From concert tickets to the stock market there is always a first mover advantage. Those New Yorkers who where here first should have have their lives disrupted just because some newcommers want to have 3 cell phones and a fax machine. If you want to have 18 different lines then you pay the price of having them in a different area code. Don't force your inconvienance upon others.
Instead of overlays a better option would be just finer and finer sub-divisions. Like below 14th St is one area code, between 14th and 96th is another area code, etc.
How does everyone suffer because they have to dial the area code on all their calls? It certainly is a lot less confusing and also fairer than geographic splits. Say you allow lower Manhattan to retain 212....how is that fair to others who now have to re-print stationery and business cards at costs of thousands of dollars? And if you live in that area and have friends living abroad who have your phone number and they haven't called you for a couple of months, they wouldn't know about the new area codes would they...and so you would lose contact with them forever.
If we are to have overlays, and to me overlays are fairer than splits, then it's just something we will have to get used to i.e. dialing the whole number including the area code. Big deal....I guess your fingers will get tired by punching three additional buttons....
Incidentally, my cell phone is 917 so when I call Brooklyn, I have to dial 718....it sure as hell doesn't annoy me. So from my home phone if I call somebody in Brooklyn, I'll have to also dial 718. Big deal!
Dialing the area code doesn't bother me at all. I just hate it when I forget where I am in the city. For instance, I dial 212 by accident out of habit when I'm already in manhattan.
I think that dialing the three extra numbers can hardly be described as suffering!
And the real reason for 10-digit dialing is that the companies aren't running out of lines, they're running out of numbers for the exchanges. With the explosion of fax machines, pagers, cell phones, data lines, etc. there aren't enough exchange numbers for all the equipment. Overlay codes were introduced when the companies had already split states and areas to get more exhanges. For example, when Maryland was split in half, the western half kept the old 301 area code, but the eastern half got the new 410. When this was done, it was was supposed to solve the exchange number problem for 10 to 12 years. (By splitting, each half got to use all the exchange numbers from the other half.)
5 years into the 301/410 split, guess what?
Yep, running out of exchange numbers again!!!
So Verizon wanted to split the state into 4 areas. The businesses in the eastern half of Maryland screamed, as they had just spent $$$ to change every place their phone nimbers were on printed material, trucks and signs. They didn't want to do it again.
So, we got two "overlay" codes, 240 for the 301 area and 443 for the 410 area. That doubled the available exchange numbers, but 10-digit dialing became mandatory.
The next big number problem will be Area Codes. Verizon figures that by 2020 or so something will have to be done about that.
Good explanation, except note this: phone companies often hoard numbers. Verizon releases numbers in bundles of 10,000 - and mayt still have a lot of numbers available when they ask for more area codes.
Bundles of 10,000 numbers sounds right. They were able to put off implementation of an overlapping 720 area code in metro Denver by six months by breaking down those blocks of 10,000 numbers into groups of 1000. We've had 10-digit dialing for a few years now, and by and large everyone has gotten used to it. It feels funny going back east and seeing 7-digit numbers in ads, let alone dialing 7-digit numbers.
The solution is simple. 4-digit exchanges and then contract the area codes back to what they were.
It’s a nice idea–Japan has 8-digit primary numbers. However, I suspect that the cost of this is so high in reprogramming that the various phone companies (all of them: local, long-distance & wireless) are putting this off until necessary. At the time, I think you will see a reorganization that gives us just 10-times expansion. Since number use is going up exponentially, we would need probably a 1000-times solution.
John
"However, I suspect that the cost of this is so high in reprogramming that the various phone companies (all of them: local, long-distance & wireless) are putting this off until necessary."
The reprogramming issue was solved in 1994 when the last non-electronic phone switch was taken out. It's a customer issue. The industry doesn't want to tell everyone their phone number is changing next year. They'd rather tell a few million people a year that their number is changing, and only for people who call them long distance (the real why-can't-we-just-have-operators-again whiners don't make any long distance calls).
On this topic, it's only 23 years ago that my parents stayed at a motel in Washington State who's only phone number was "White Pass number 1". No direct dial from anywhere because it didn't have an no area code.
Still won't work. The basic problem is the lack of actual station (phone) numbers against demand. Remember, no exchange can start with 1 or 0, so two digits are out. Since everything that connects to the telephone system has to have a unique numerical address, the number of stations is limited by the addresses available.
4 digit exchanges might just come about anyway as the number of devices keep increasing. Or, the physical areas get smaller (more overlay codes and more city/state splits, but that just exerbates the area code problem which also suffers from the same number problems. Area Codes used to have either a 0 or 1 as the second digit, but that isn't the case in Maryland with the 240 overlay area code and the 443 overlay code. I guarantee the only area code you will never see anywhere in the US is 911.)
One interesting telephone device being developed is a cell phone that also doubles as a land line phone. It uses the same numerical address all the time. It might be introduced some time in 2005.
I know...we should just scrap the traditional phone system and just use IP addresses for phone numbers. Once they add the 5th octet there will be 6 IP addresses for every square inch on earth. That's more than enough for all the phones and faxes and beepers.
What about space colonies?
>>> The solution is simple. 4-digit exchanges and then contract the area codes back to what they were <<<
Now we are introducing the Y2K problem all over again. Think of all the computer programs that would have to be changed to allow entry of four digit area codes. It makes the cost of dialing three extra digits, or changing stationary (which would have to be done anyway) pale in comparison.
Tom
Furthermore, this country has always been about first come first serve. From concert tickets to the stock market there is always a first mover advantage.
First come, first served is a flawed system because it works largely on luck and on the availability of a finite resource: time. Why should the losers who hang out for a week next to the stadium get concert tickets.
You already know about my idea to sell tickets to music and sporting events through a Dutch auction system.
Ten-digit dialing is no more an abomination than 7-digit dialing. Your complaint is stupid and is similar to complaints when 7-digit dialing was implemented in the first place.
4-digit area codes are more likely than 10-digit dial. Increasing the station number to 5-digits won't solve the problem, so only exchanges can be increased. How would you go about that? You can't put a 1 or 0 on the front, and it's confusing to add the extra number in the middle, so you'd have to add a 2 or some other number to the front of every phone number.
There isn't a simple way to enforce this, since if one forgets the 2, then the system will think it's a regular number. There's no way of creating an intermediate recorded announcement telling people to hang up and dial 2 before the number, since 1/8th of all numbers already start with 2.
What are you going to do with 911? Change it to 9111?
>>> I have on my desk downstairs a fully working WE 302 set (the first tabletop phone to have the network/ringer inside the case as opposed to the network/ringer in a wall box) with a dial. <<<
Is that the one with the microphone on a stalk on the base unit, and a cord to the earpiece? I have always wanted one of those, but felt it impractical because it almost always requires two hands to use. When we got our first phone in 1946, that model was already obsolete.
Tom
No, the 302 was the first "tabletop" dial phone with all the parts (network, ringer, etc) in the base rather than in a wall box. That's most likely what you got in 1946.
It was the Western Electric standard until the intorduction of the model 500. (The "streamlined, modern" phone.)
Today, there are a plethora of telephones available. Deregulation was good for something.
>>> the 302 was the first "tabletop" dial phone with all the parts (network, ringer, etc) in the base rather than in a wall box. <<<
I was under the impression the phone I described with the stalk and ear piece had at least the ringer in the base, since several phones could be on a desk, and a person at the desk had to know which one was ringing. What more was necessary that had to be in a remote wall box?
Tom
Inside every phone is a terminal called a network. The line cord and every other wire is connected to terminals on the network.
On the "candlestick" (WE 101, I think) phone, the stalk was too small to hold more than the wires and the hookswitch (where the receiver hung) so the network and the ringer (remember when phones actually rang?) went a box on the wall.
The WE 202 was the first tabletop phone, still with the network and ringer in a wall box. The 302 was WE's first desk set with everything inside - no wall box any more.
As to the multiple phones on a desk,(only in BIG business) WE would, on request (with the approprate charges) replace the bells with buzzers, or add lights to the sets. BTW, the lighted button sets pre-date Touch-Tone, so businesses using 302's and 500's were using them. The buttons allowed 1 phone to use several lines, plus hold calls.
They can also go to vendors and get their cards, eliminating the need for MVM's and token booth clerks, plus those cards are marked so if you have different kinds of metrocards, you can tell them apart
Admittedly, I refused to use the Metrocard till 7/4/97 when discounting began...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Up at 116th/Broadway, it's often the other way around - lots of students new to New York, that haven't noticed you can also buy cards from the booth.
Ever been in a situation where every idiot is going through the same door in a slow queue, and you're the one who breaks free and opens the OTHER DOOR.
This only makes you look stupid if the other door is locked, but I've found this phenomenon taking place even with double doors with no pole between them.
And don't you hate it when doors have handles on the push side and bars on the pull side? At least if they do that, they should have stickers that say PUSH and PULL, because with 20 years of door opening experience, if I see a handle and no sign that says PUSH, I assume PULL.
It's not only Metrocard and EZ Pass. At the Pathmark near my house they put in totally automated checkouts in place of the express lines. There are no cashiers and you scan your own items. You then slide your credit or debit card or insert cash. It gives change. However you still see people waiting on the long lines with one carton of milk or one loaf of bread while the automated lines are empty.
At the racetrack they have automated betting machines where you buy a voucher at the start of the day and play off the voucher. Winnings are added to the voucher ticket. Yet the lines at the manned betting windows are still long and people do curse when they get shut out.
Another thing I don't understand is why people still walk into gas station offices to pay at all those stations that have the "Pay at the pump" machines where you just have to swipe a debit or credit card.
One thing I'll never do though, even if it takes more time. I will NEVER pay an ATM service charge at a bank other than my own if MY bank is anywhere within 20 miles of me!!! And it really irks me that MY bank will charge me if I use a credit card at one of their ATM's. The fact that I have an account there should let me use their ATM free even if the card was issued elsewhere. They could set up a system where you can swipe both the credit card AND then your ATM card to prove you're a customer.
On those automated checkout lines 30% of the time I use them I get incorrect change and I have to get help. It is also a bitch to scan your own stuff. I'd rather get that service for free.
Funny, the only problem I ever have with the automated checkout at our local A&P is with the store's own coupons - they don't scan half the time, so I have to flag the attendant over when I'm using them. But I prefer using them over dealing with some gum-cracking kid who has to call a manager over every time I show up with some fresh vegetable that doesn't have a UPC code (how hard is it to learn the difference between pineapples and cucumbers?).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"But I prefer using them over dealing with some gum-cracking kid who has to call a manager over every time I show up with some fresh vegetable that doesn't have a UPC code (how hard is it to learn the difference between pineapples and cucumbers?)."
I'm sure they'll find a way to grow vegetables with the UPC codes imprinted on them as they grow.
If a New Yorker says an IND roll sign is from the IRT, then I'll believe they can't tell a pineapple from a cucumber.
How are those two things related?
Actually, it is possible for somebody never to have seen a cucumber or pineapple, which is doubtful. But if they haven't, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a cucumber and pineapple.
If those fruits ever become extinct, then most people will not be able to tell apart pictures of them. Only fruit historians and people working in the fruit development labs will know what those fruits are.
The IRT and IND are extinct. Live with it.
AIM brought up the line about a kid at a supermarket calling the manager about fresh fruit. "how hard is it to learn the difference between pineapples and cucumbers?" Maybe someday both will become extinct. But it's doubtful if that will happen anytime soon. So anyone who can't tell the 2 apart is as ignorant as someone who labels IND equipment as IRT.
And I agree the IRT and BMT are extinct. Hylan started building the IND to replace the other systems. He was forced to allow the 2 to co-exist. But the BMT has been taken over by the IND. If the city had the money in the 30's and '40's, maybe it could have rebuilt and taken over some parts of the IRT as well.
Dang! I'm filing for an IPO! Anybody wanna buy some common stock in United Labelled Fruit?
I think the vegetable division of Union Carbide already does that.
How about the difference between a Sweetie and an Ugly (I'm not kidding).
I have trouble remembering the names of all the different kinds of squash - but I do know a pumpkin when I see one (it's in the squash family too).
Different strains of a particular type, yes... but I've literally seen a clerk ask a manager if the pineapple I was purchasing was a mushroom or what. (I've been known to ask the produce manager about the different types of mushrooms myself... can't always figure them out.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was once asked about a head of garlic. I guess the cashier wasn't Jewish.
Or Italian....
Not pumpkin, vegetable orb.
>>> And it really irks me that MY bank will charge me if I use a credit card at one of their ATM's <<<
You think that is bad?? Local banks charge a fee for cashing one of their customer's checks. That takes a certain amount of chutzpah since a check is a demand on the bank to pay a certain amount from the drafter's account to the payee. I found out about it a year ago when I was given a check that I was not sure of because there might have been other outstanding checks exceeding the balance, or the person who gave me the check might stop payment. I went directly to the person's bank and presented the check and was told I would have to pay a fee to cash the check. The bank backed down when I told them I would pass the charge along to their customer.
The other day when I was in the Bank of America, the largest bank in California, there was a sign saying they would charge for cashing checks of their corporate customers (presumably checks from individuals can still be cashed for free). One more way to make money from the little guy.
Tom
"At the Pathmark near my house they put in totally automated checkouts in place of the express lines."
Tried it once at a K-Mart and an employee ended up having to do all the scanning because the equipment was balky. Last time, I saw them in the supermarket, and I wondered, what's the catch? Maybe they're better now and worth another try.
Another thing I don't understand is why people still walk into gas station offices to pay at all those stations that have the "Pay at the pump" machines where you just have to swipe a debit or credit card.
Mainly because I prefer to pay cash and don't want to have to remember to enter the debit into my checkbook when I get home. There are exceptions, of course - one station (near the Shore Line Trolley Museum) where I buy gas on occasion requires prepayment or credit/debit at the pump so I will use a credit or debit card there, since I don't want to have to make two trips over to the window, past a bunch of unsavory-looking hangers-on. I'd buy elsewhere except that this station's gas (Hess) runs my old truck just fine and it's usually 12¢/gallon cheaper than anyone else in the area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>"past a bunch of unsavory-looking hangers-on"<<<
I do not see this bunch of insipids, when I use the same "Station"
inroute to Shore Line. You getting paranoid as "Qtraindash7"???
;-) Sparky
No, I'm not getting paranoid... but the last two times I've stopped there I didn't much care for the creatures hanging out there... got my gas and skeedaddled. Lately I've been more careful to fill up the night before... then I can make the round trip without having to stop anywhere for gas, or at least not until I'm back in NJ.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought in New York people wait on line instead of in line.
Mark
This morning, I took public transit for the first time in three weeks as a result of the sniper shootings. I left a few minutes earlier than normal although I decided to take my normal route as oppossed to the new 47 route. I still hope to try that soon. The bus station at Friendship Heights was deserted both in terms of the numbers of buses and people. On the subway, I missed a train of Rohr cars since I didn't hear the announcement. I saw it leave and saw that 1101 was the second car of the train. For those of you on the SubTalkDC trip, we saw the 1100/1101 set after our Blue Line broke down outside Franconia-Springfield. It was the middle pair of the 6 car train we took to Rosslyn. The reason it was special was because 1101 (and 1100 too, probably) did not have the AC marked underneath the number plate on the outside. I could have found out if it has AC motors or not but it was on a train to Shady Grove, so instead of it being across the platform when I got off at Grosvenor, it was probably in the vicinity of Twinbrook.
I got Breda 3066. The train was emptier than normal, I had the whole first car to myself after Medical Center. The Rorhs in front of us were pretty slow because we caught up to them by Grosvenor, even though we were normally spaced when I got on.
The Ride-On situation hasn't changed. 5619 and 5814 were still on the 37 although an Orion I was on the 46. Black ribbons were on both mirrors and are rather hard to see if you aren't looking hard. No notices about Sundays service on board the bus that I noticed. There were only 2 other people but Fridays are normally lighter than other days of the week.
Have any other DC SubTalkers returned to the Metro yet?
"Have any other DC SubTalkers returned to the Metro yet?"
I'm not a DC subtalker, but I did venture out on the DC subways (as well as the entire DC area) last weekend, even when everything was going on. We always got a safe, pleasant ride. -Nick
Unlike those celebrating birthdays this Sunday, Metro will operate its regular "Saturday" hours (8 AM Saturday until 2 AM EDT Sunday). They announced this on their website because there will be 2 2 AMs on Sunday morning to avoid confusion. Metro will open at 6:30 AM on Sunday for the running of the Marine Corps Marathon. Next weekend, Metro will open early for the Help the Homeless Walk.
Man what a flood did I see today at Canal street! Coming down the stairway from the Southbound JMZ to the Manhattan bound Q/W there was a HUGE puddle, I had to walk on some yellow floating caution signs just not to get my feet soaked. They really should have roped it off.
I saw it also, it was worse coming from the northbound side
jump a hurdle.
>>They really should have roped it off.
But you walked there anyway since it wasn't roped off??
Are you like the massed geese and since it wasn't roped off you walked there anyway?
You've got me thinking door enablers. :)
Myabe the next time I ride the subways I should bring along a swim suit, swim cap and a pair of goggles just incase I have to navigate through a flooded station.
#3 West End Jeff
This is a problem with the Storm Sewer and it is of the cronhic (sic) nature. I have heard that they plan to replace mains and sewers along Canal Street in the not too distant future, and this construction should solve the problem. What it does to traffic along this supercongested street is anybody's guess.
wayne
Well, it is "Canal Street".
Seriously though, I have never been in that station without water pouring in the station from somewhere - places unknown. Esopecially on the bridge platform. I guess the old ancient canal is still fairly active.
I believe the "canal" is still there. Someone told me years ago if you walk on a catwalk just outside the station and open a door, you can see the underground canal.
Interesting. I would assume the water would have to still be there. I believe the old "canal" was built to drain a natural water pond called the "Collect Pond" which may have been formed by ground water. I guess that water still has to flow somewhere, so some sort of "canal" or drainage "sewer" must still be underground there somewhere.
from News 12.
>>> from News 12. <<<
And I wasted three minutes downloading that small bit of useless news (along with massive overhead). You could be courteous enough to give some kind of description when posting a link. :-(
Tom
Interesting part of article states that photos of railroad cars were seized from al-Qaida prisioners. Also for passengers to report anything out of the ordinary. I guess railfan photography can be mistaken as terrorist activity. Now that makes me feel uneasy.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm *hoping* that the authorities went to efforts to identify WHOSE railcars those are and notify the railroads "of interest" ... while I've always been an odd one - I'm not one for photographs myself, frankly I prefer my own fuzzy "meatrom" (memory) images of where I was, what I did and who I hung out with to the "documentation" but I always enjoy seeing pictures others have taken. Guess I'm funny that way, but when I'm hanging out with folks on railroads, I never have a camera.
I'm *VERY* grateful to those who HAVE provided images of those things I've enjoyed in the past, but folks working on the railroads tend to be EXTREMELY camera shy. Show up with a camera, and they always got twitchy and closed the door. NO camera and it was chummy as all get out, lacking the ability to document a fun time. Go figger.
But on a COMMUNITY basis, those photos are now the ONLY link many of us have with the past unless some museum somewhere had the wisdom to acquire some of those treats - like 1689 for example. I'd MUCH rather have handle time than a photo. :)
Well,photography of any kind can be good or bad.
What if my parents visit me, and I take photos of them near the Art Museum? Am I taking pictures of them or is this really an excuse to photograph the guards walking the side entrance because I intend the break in tonight and steal a Monet?
There are risks we take in an open society (or it wouldn't be open).
What are the tile colors and designs for 91st street, 18th street, worth street, the platform extension at worth st, and myrtle ave. also, what do the tiles look like under the 70s tile at the 4th ave local stations in brooklyn?
I can answer some of this:
Worth Street - the southbound extension is like Canal Street with the IND motif, except it is yellow with blue trim instead of yellow with green trim (Canal).
See the FOURTH AVENUE station-by-station for samples of the old tile; pictures of the old are alongside the new in some cases. All the patterns at the local stations (9 [UNION has been obliterated], Prospect, 25, 45, 53, Bay Ridge, 77) are the SAME, with the diamonds along the top of the frieze and the little notches at the outer edge.
The BASIC DESIGN for 18th and 91st are pretty much the same as the original tile found at 23rd and 79th (with the original plaques and tablets), not sure of the colors, but are probably similar.
wayne
Where the mosaics survive (if they do) are in the secondary exits and behoind the platform level fare control.
Whenever they renovate the ese stations, the horrid refrigerator tile will be removed and the old restored with new white tile and cleaned and/or restored friezes and tablets.I do not remember where, but I have seen one 95th St Bound paltform with a tile missing and saw the old tile underneath.
Here's two photos of 18th Street from this site:
Also what did the old 49th street mosaics look like?
49th Street had the same pattern (Vickers, 1918) as 23rd, 28th, 8th and Prince. I think the frieze was predominating medium blue with light green accents and darker green diamonds and some light blue around the edges. The icons were white "49" on blue background IIRC.
wayne
Actually, I just looked in my book, "Subway Ceramics" by Lee Stookey, and there is a great photo of the name tablet at 49th/Broadway on page 83 for anyone who has the book (I bought it at the Transit Museum many years ago, but it's a great book). That tablet was really nice. It doesn't say when the photo was taken, but the wall is in such great shape! The center of the tablet is blue with maroon little mosaic tiles (and some other colors mixed in). The letters are white, and lighter multi colored small tiles around that, followed by the standard tan tiles framing it out. The ceiling band is tan tiles in the middle followed by one line of blue tiles, and a double row of olive colored tiles. Real nice.I may have to rethink my original post of having mixed feelings about them removing the orange bricks. I now say, RIP THEM DOWN!
Re: 49th St BMT
I'm not sure that this station will be retro rehabbed. The orange tiles suspiciously look like the ones at Jamaica-Van Wyck (E) station. When I see those orange tile, I think of shag carpet and the Brady Bunch. Overdose of the 70's man !
The only thing I like about 49th St is the sound deadening treatment. I winder why the current retro rehabbing of stations didn't go that route.
Bill "Newkirk"
The orange bricks are fine. THey match the beige celling. Also sterile white tile doesn't look good. LOok at the broadway line renovations (but the boarders near the floor are nice). The orange looks really good and also the tile underneth looks like a tank ran over with all its wohles and cracks. The orange colour skeam is a good one. Also warm florescent light would make it look better. I am sick of the white tile in the subway. No colour. Lets hope the 2nd ave subway won't be white tile.
LOok at the broadway line renovations (but the boarders near the floor are nice). The orange looks really good and also the tile underneth looks like a tank ran over with all its wohles and cracks.
Although I really do like the station at 49th Street, I find the other Broadway renovations to be a great improvement over what was there. As for a "tank running over the old walls", that was only true for when they first removed the old cement block tile, they cleaned up quite nicely.
Also warm florescent light would make it look better.
I agree with that though. The lighting at 49th is very nice. I wish they would do that at other stations. I like when they put the lights in the arches in the ceilings, instead of a straight line along the tracks. 34th/Hearald Square on the N/R/Q/W is also a good example of a station with nice lighting. In some renovations they change the lighting, in others they don't. It does make it a bit mor soothing.
I did find this photo on this site. You can sort of see the ceiling mosaic band on the opposite platform. Maybe someone else knows of some better examples somewhere online.
And another with unfortunately the exact same angle, but with an R42 - which also makes for some interesting viewing.
Joe Brennan, who unfortunately rarely posts here, has a terrific abandoned stations page...
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/
The Brooklyn BMT stations have the same style mosaics that the recently-uncovered BMT Manhattan stations do...under the 1968 tiles.
Unfortunately they didn't 'retrofit' the garish 49th Street station, but it too has the same style mosaics underneath as the other stations.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The elements of the friezes differ between the Brooklyn and Manhattan stations, and actually they differ between the two Brooklyn Groups (Whitehall* , Court, Lawrence - and 4th Ave) AND between the local and express stations.
wayne
I also noticed from photos that the 4th Ave line local stations have/had white IRT type rectangle "brick" tiles, as opposed to the square white tiles at the local stations on Broadway. The express stations on Broadway have large white square tiles. I forgot what kind of white tiles the express stations on the 4th Ave line have.
I have mixed feelings about removing the orange brick at 49th/Broadway. I really hate the fact that the old mosaics are under there, and unseen, but it is sort of a unique looking station. As a kid I always used to like that station because it was one of the few that were clean in the 70's. It's a bit more worn now, and doesn't quite stand out anymore because many stations are now clean looking. Are they planning to remove the orange bricks there to expose the mosaics. Anyone know of any photos of the station when the mosaics were showing? If they are planning to one day do 49th, I feel it should be closer to the bottom of the list. I would like to see the 4th Avenue station in Brooklyn first.
I would like to see the 4th Avenue station in Brooklyn first.
To be clearer, I mean the 4th Ave line stations in Brooklyn first.
I would like to see the 4th Avenue station in Brooklyn first.
To be clearer, I mean the 4th Ave line stations in Brooklyn first.
I'd like to see 4th Ave Station redone as it was, but I guess this day and age it wouldn't last.
Sure it would, not much you can do to tile that can't be cleaned up. Look at the stations on the Broadway and on the "L" that have been facelifted. Another prime example is Church Avenue on the Nostrand IRT. Usually when they redo an old station, they put up new white tile and leave the tablets, friezes and footers (if any) in place. Only if the tablet (i.e. Lorimer on the "L") or frieze (i.e. Atlantic on the "Q") is damaged will they recreate it. And they do a first-rate job of doing so.
wayne
I got to say, though, that the new tile at Atlantic looks pretty weird, at least on one side - in order to avoid having to move some power or signal cables that are connected to the top of the wall, the tile panels on one side (I forget which; I was last there almost two months ago) were mounted below the cables, leaving the celing band and name tablet much too low - they look way out of place. It looks like someone just wasn't thinking when they put them up.
subfan
The new tile's on the northbound side. There are also patches on the southbound side consistent with what was there - and the old tile did get cleaned, repointed and reglazed.
That's the best they could do! At least they match. Looked OK to me when I was there on 10/15; they hadn't buffed off the excess grout yet so it looked dusty. They did another first-class job matching the colors and patterns, Mr.Vickers would be very pleased.
wayne
I agree that they did a good job matching the colors and paterns, but at least the way I see it, they then went ahead and ruined the whole effect by putting the panels up too low - the lack of proportion makes the whole thing look forced. It's an extremely awkward-looking compromise, at best.
subfan
Fourth Ave (F) will be restored when it is renovated (no date available). I am also lookign forward to the as yet unknown date when the refigerator tile leaves the 4th Av Local in Brooklyn and Rector in manhattan.
I am also lookign forward to the as yet unknown date when the refigerator tile leaves the 4th Av Local in Brooklyn and Rector in manhattan.
I wonder why they didn't get rid of the cement block tile at Rector while they were doing all the other Broadway line stations. It will also be a treat if/when they do all the 4th Ave line stations in Brooklyn.
I haven't been there in a while, and have only been on the express even the last few times I went through there, so I didn't notice, but didn't they do some kind of renovation at Union/4th a few years back? The last time I went through there on the local (at least 5 years ago), they seemed to be doing renovation work there. What did they do? Also, what does the track wall at the local stations on 4th Ave local stations look like (the wall between the express track and local track), does that still have mosaics/original tile, or did they put up the cement block tiles on that also in the 70's?
Fourth Ave (F) will be restored when it is renovated (no date available). What is the original look to that station? I was there about two weeks ago and I think I remember it being just painted concrete - what is under that?
Union/4th had a renovation. They did the tile over on the curtain walls and added multicolored accents. On the platform walls, they obliterated any traces of the old tile and added "flying people" artworks, which are all copies of the same lithograph. They left the grey panels only on the northbound side for some reason. They also did the lighting and platform surfaces over.
wayne
Based on the platform edge, this was an early 90's rehab. It has the black rubber(?) with small bumps and two bright orange stripes, like at 57/7 and Herald Square.
Yup, the station was done in 91-92.
Wow, has it been that long already! (So much for my assumption of "about 5 years ago")! But hey, I did remember that a renovation took place some time in the 90's!
4th Av F had windows! I saw a photo int he book Building the IND. On the underground connection to the subway lines you can see the original BMT tile.
4th Av F had windows! I saw a photo int he book Building the IND. On the underground connection to the subway lines you can see the original BMT tile.
When I get home, I will have to pull out my "Building the IND" book and check that out. I was at the 4th Ave station about two weeks ago, and didn't notice the original tile, but I entered from the street entrance, not the connection from the underground station. Being about 1:00 AM, having just returned from some bars in Park Slope (BTW, the food is really good at the Park Slope Ale House), and being with some other people, I wasn't really railfanning (or really in the condition to), but I did notice the areas on the platform where the windows may have been, and actually was wondering about that. We just missed the F train when we got the 4th Ave, and there was a G waiting to leave on the express track, but when the G left, I had a chance to really take in the station, which seemed so peaceful at that hour. When the F came, every bone in my body wanted to get off at Smith-9th, to take in the view, which looked so nice from the train, but stayed with the people I was with. I have to railfan that line one day.
I really enjoyed the ride on the F on the way going also, as I hadn't been south of Jay-Street Boro Hall in a while. They did a nice job on the tiles at Bergen. I got off at 7th Ave originally, and it seems like such a waste of infastructure, that's a huge station (well all IND stations seem huge). I hope one day they extend the V to Church Street, so they can use the express tracks once again. I really had a good time that night. It's funny how a subfan can have just as much going to or from their destination, as the destination itself!
It's funny how a subfan can have just as much going to or from their destination, as the destination itself!
Oops, typo - That was supposed to say "just as much fun going to or from their destination"
Look at the station from the street. Note the arches. That is where the windows were and a careful look at the walls will also show where they were covered up with metal. This station will be visited during Peggy's as yet unscheduled CUlver Tour.
This station will be visited during Peggy's as yet unscheduled CUlver Tour
Interesting. Tell Peggy I will try to make it if I am free on the day that she chooses. I enjoyed the last one on the Livonia El, etc.
Am I the only one who would like to see a few of those 1970ish retiled stations left as is? To me, they ARE the Broadway BMT, and what's underneath is irrelevant.
Keep 'em in Brooklyn south of 59th St.
Am I the only one who would like to see a few of those 1970ish retiled stations left as is? To me, they ARE the Broadway BMT, and what's underneath is irrelevant.
I mentioned it already in this thread, but I really do like the look of the cement block 70ish tiles (and definitely 49th). I wouldn't mind it at all if it was used in some stations as original tile. What the shame is, is that the old BMT stations had sort of ornate mosaics. It's really a shame that they were covered. If they had covered some of the standard IND station's tiles, I wouldn't feel as bad, but 4th Ave has some great mosaics under there. Look what we are missing (and this doesn't even show the name tablets, because I can't find any photos of them):
Keep 'em in Brooklyn south of 59th St.
I agree, maybe that's a good compromise. I'd like to see one or two remain, but that would be a hard decision for me as to which ones to not restore. I do believe 49th should stay orange, and then one or two of the cement block ones.
Those pictures look VAGUELY FAMILIAR! The name tablets are buried. These are the best examples of the old tiles that I could find. I spent an entire afternoon down there looking for them.
wayne
Those pictures look VAGUELY FAMILIAR!
LOL, I knew that was coming, as soon as I noticed you were posting at the same time.
Anyway, yeah, the fare control areas are the only places you can still see the old walls. (luckily they left that - I always admired them on Broadway before the recent rehabs, except at 28th where there was a full tablet showing on the platform).
I spent an entire afternoon down there looking for them.
I got to get down there one day, for now your photos will have to do.
I remember the original tilework on the BMT Broadway line and am glad to see it return. BTW, has anyone else noticed that the fake wall near the northern end of the 28th St. station is gone now? I rode on several Q trains two weks ago and looked at that spot each time we zoomed past. Before the current rehab, that end of the station still had the original tilework beyond the fake wall.
BTW, has anyone else noticed that the fake wall near the northern end of the 28th St. station is gone now?
Yeah, I did notice that at 28th. I always admired that end of the station and always hoped they would restore it. 28th Street must be an extra long station now. I always wondered why they extended 28th south in the first place, and then abandoned the north end (where that uncovered name tablet used to be). There didn't seem to be a curve there. Why did they bother extending it so far south in the first place, then needing to put the fake wall up at the northern end?
Chris
Maybe someone miscalculated. Curves were avoided at Dual Contracts stations as much as possible, although there are instances of very gentle curves.
True. The natural curve of Broadway itself may have had something to do with it.
Unfortunately they didn't 'retrofit' the garish 49th Street station, but it too has the same style mosaics underneath as the other stations.
I must be one of the very few people who actually likes the look of that station!
I like it too, but i think i would like the old bmt better. They should replicate it in the 8th ave/23rd st station
I liked it too, when it first when up because it at least was different from the gawdawful cookie-cutter cinder block tiles -- mostly in MTA corporate colors -- that were put along the entire Fourth Ave./B'way local route. However, since there is a similar-looking station in the system down at Bowling Green, it wouldn't hurt me to see them restore 49th St. to its original look.
(Bowling Green has a bit more justification in keeping its current 70s look, since the uptown platform and the current underpasses were built at the same time the new tiling went up. So the old tile on the east side wall at BG was not only replaced, the whole wall was removed to build the new platform.)
Somewhere under that orange brick at Bowling Green are the original Heinz-LaFarge tile tapestries, like the ones the have at 72nd Street and 110th St-CPS. I understand these have attained landmark status and can't be touched. Bravo!
wayne
They are, and there is a photo of them also in that "Subway Ceramics" book.
Here's Bowling Green in 1962 for those who've never seen what Wayne's talking about. Since this photo was taken apparently from the "shuttle" platform, wouldn't the "wall"in this pic be the one which was destroyed to make way for the current side uptown platform in 1977?
Here's an even clearer one or the very nice mosaics that were once at Bowling Green. I know they destroyed one whole wall to make the new platform, but I always find it amazing that they thought it was a good idea to cover up all the old mosaics where they did it, including here at Bowling Green.
The new uptown platform at Bowling Green is a little further north of the island platform used for downtown.
But I think the picture shown was taken from the main platform looking AT the shuttle platform. I don't think in 1962 the IRT was still using their old cars for anything but shuttle service. Also the overhead sign at the top left says that the train is on the track going to South Ferry. The other half of the sign which is cut off by the end of the photo looks like it says B'klyn trains.
BTW, when the TA redid the BMT 4th Ave-Broadway, the colors were in strict rotation with 4 colors, red, blue gold and grey. Only the local stations were redone..the express stations, arguably the more important stations, were left as they were. Only recently has 36th Street been given a remake!
IIRC...I haven't ridden the line everyday since 1992...
Rector is/was blue
Cortlandt was ???? It's been so long since it was redone
Canal...local station red, express station blue
Prince..gold
8th...blue
23rd...gray
28th...red
5th Avenue...?
When they were first done in the 60s, I liked them since tthey seemed snazzier than the boring tilework they were doing, say, on the Grand St. station or on the IRT extended platforms. And, the Folio (or Akzidenz?) typefont they were using had more character than the boring Helvetica Bold they later switched to.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I thought they had some orange ones also.
Actually, I kind of liked the "cement block" tiles. I just didn't like that they covered the mosaics up. If they would have been "original" wall tile at stations like 63rd Street stations, etc, I kind of liked the look. I just feel it was totally inappropriate to cover the old mosaic tiles up.
They could of done similar jobs like at 51 St and 103 St on the 6 line.
Actually, I find 51st very attractive, and they did save the mosaics at the same time. That was one of the earliest renovations in which they were smart enough to renovate the station in an attractive way, while still saving the great old features of the station.
One station that I really don't like the look, even though they saved the mosaics and old features is Wall Street. I hate the blue tiles they put there. I feel it doesn't compliment the old tilework at all.
I've never been a big fan of 51st Street for two reasons. First, I like the white subway tiles under the stripe and around the tablet. Second, it takes away a few inches of precious platform space at a very crowded stations. It may only a few inches of width, but iit adds up to a bunch of passengers over the length of the station.
I do like the 51st Street beige brick much better than the blue at Wall Street. I just think that it doesn't belong in a Contract 1 or a Vickers station, or even an original IND station. I have always felt that we should try to retain the original tiles and the character of the lines as much as possible with the 33rd Street rehab being the best example of that.
There are elements in the 23rd Street and 28th Street Lexington stations that are out of place as well but are not inherently bad like Wall Street or without character like Grand Street or 57th & 6th. I even don't mind the bad BMT 1960s rehab styles or Herald Square. They just belong elsewhere, not in stations from the first hapf of the 20th Century.
There are elements in the 23rd Street and 28th Street Lexington stations that are out of place as well but are not inherently bad like Wall Street
I really don't like the 80's rehab at 23rd/Lexington. The orange brick flooring is not at all appropriate, and there are also some walls that have orange brick tiles, and the standard metal black with white letters signs on the wall. Hopefully, one day they will do a renovation at 23rd, similar to the way 33rd was done (I agree, it's a real jewel). Unfortunately, I don't thinkthere are too many original elements still existing at 23rd Steet, unless they are covered up under the orange tiles (anyone know?). I know there is one of the orignial "23rd Street" tablets located inside of the newstand there on the downtown platform, hopefully there are some more original elements still existing under the ugly orange tiles also. There is not to much else of the original 1904 23rd Street station still showing, hopefully it is still there underneath.
As for 28th Street, the 80's renovation was not too bad. Most of the old features are still there, and showing, they just need to compliment the extensions and some of the other renovations a bit better when/if they renovate it again.
I even don't mind the bad BMT 1960s rehab styles or Herald Square. They just belong elsewhere, not in stations from the first hapf of the 20th Century.
Neither do I. I never really minded the look of Broadway when they had the cement block type tiles up, (or even 4th Ave in Brooklyn for that matter). I just think it was a sin that they put it over the beautiful tilework that was there. If that cement block style tile would have been used in new stations or if a 2nd Ave subway was built in the 70's and they used it on that line, I don't think it was that bad of a look, it would have been appropriate for the time when the line was built. Of course, now I do have much higher hopes for the 2nd Ave station's look, when and if it ever gets built, considering many of the "from scratch" retro type tiles they have used at stations such as Fulton and Broad/Nassau, 8th Ave/14th, Brooklyn Bridge, etc.
>>>I thought they had some orange ones also. <<<
The red tiles were kind of a tomato color, kind of an orangey red. I lost my Pantone chart (g)
Contrast to the IND system, in which a color was continued along a line until an express stop was reached, then another color would be introduced...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have a perfect match in my Prismacolor pencil set for that color:
1032 Pumpkin Orange, matches 100% to the tile at 25 Street.
wayne
Wayne- How about posting the pencil colors for the refrigerator tile colors?
So far we have the Orange.
Now we need the blue, gray and yellow and any others I may have missed. (You are the tile man!)
Orange: 1032 "Pumpkin Orange:"
Blue: 903 "True Blue"
Yellow: 1010 "Jasmine"
Grey: 963 "Warm Grey Light" (retired color) is a perfect match,
the best I can come up with in the current set is 1052 Warm Grey 30%
Available at Pearl on Canal St (N/R/W), 2nd floor, I think they go for .84 a pencil.
wayne
Cortlandt was Grey. There was also a section of the n/b local platform at 57th street (at the south end) that had the 70s tile, and had blue panels. Not sure on 5th Avenue, I think it might have been a grey one.
The color referred to as red is really burnt orange.
Brooklyn is/was:
77th: Burnt orange
Bay Ridge: Blue
53rd: Yellow
45th: Grey
25th: Burnt orange
Prospect: Blue
9th: Yellow
Union: Grey (only n/b plaform retains grey panels)
wayne
Fifth Ave/60th St had gold/yellow 1968ish tiles.
Thanks Chris, I wasn't 100% sure, I kind of thought grey, because 57th Street (the part of the station that had them) was blue, and grey
followed blue.
CORRECTION for my previous post:
Correct color # is 1012 JASMINE. (I had incorrectly posted 1010).
wayne
I do too. It's a pristine example of late 1970's station rehabbing and should be left as is.
Question is, did 49th St. receive the same 1968ish tiles all other BMT Broadway stations received before the rehab in 1977/78?
Nope, 49th street went directly from the original BMT tiling to the current look. I would guess the MTA already had picked out the station for their noise abatement testing when the cinder block tiles went up on the other B'way-Fourth Ave. local stations, so they didn't bother to do any rehab work there, even though the cinder blocks went up about 2 1/2 years before the 49th St. rehab.
>so they didn't bother to do any rehab work there,
>even though the cinder blocks went up about 2 1/2
>years before the 49th St. rehab.
2 1/2 years later? That would mean the current 49th St. rehab was done in 1971/2?
That would mean the current 49th St. rehab was done in 1971/2?
I thought the rehab at 49th was done around 1977 or 1978, which would be about 10 years after all the other Broadway stations were rehabbed, including 5th Ave station.
No..the 49th Street rehab was done the same time as the other Broadway Line rehabs, although it took a bit longer to finish, due to the sound baffling and welded rail projects. All of the rehabs involved platform lengthening (so a 10-car, 60-foot train could stop there.) Instead of just adding new tile to the extensions (like they did on the Contract 1 IRT stations in the early 60's), they decided to retile whole stations, which was done really quickly and cheaply by applying glazed brick tiles over the original Dual Contracts tiles.
Why they chose to do 49th Street differently(small orange bricks instead of large white bricks) is anyone's guess.
Oh, I thought they did 49th around the same time that they did Bowling Green in the late 70's (because it's similar with the orange tiles).
Are you sure? Here's a pic of 49th St. from 1971, after the "new" tiles were installed along other 4th Ave/Broadway stations, and well after the stations were lengthened for 500' trains (RR and EE trains were already running 10 car units before this pic was taken). Yet the station is not rehabbed, or even in that process. I'm convinced 49th St. was done later, after 1976, around the same time Bowling Green was. They're too much alike to have been done seperatley:
That's what I thought.
I know the 49th Street station was done earlier than 1976, since I wasn't living in New York in the mid-70's, and I remember the Orange tile going up. Bowling Green was done after I left New York; I didn't get to see the final results until years later.
Perhaps that online photo is from an earlier date and is mis-marked.
Could be, but I always remember the station being orange. But I was only about 8 in 1979, and remembered it being orange then, and at that point it looked fairly new, but of course could have looked fairly new after being orange for a few years already too. The only reason I would have remembered it at that age was because was because it stood out so much. I wouldn't have noticed the station before it was orange anyway, so who knows when they did it.
Bowling Green was started in 1972, 49th Street in 1973. 49th Street was a pilot for a station modernization program that never happened (50th Street-Broadway was supposed to be the other station in the pilot, but it didn't get done until the 1990s, and then not in the same way that 49th Street was.)
David
Interesting.
In the process of those rehabs, were there plans to build a connecting underpass between the two stations? A connection there is certainly not necessary -- there's a better connection one stop down on both lines -- but when I'm using an unlimited and I need to make a SB-to-NB transfer (and I'm on the local), I do it there to save a few minutes. (I did it last Thursday morning and just caught an R, so it paid off, especially since my R got to Roosevelt just as problems on the express track had begun.) I ask only because it seems odd that two disconnected yet practically abutting stations would be rehabbed as part of a single project and remain disconnected.
Incidentally, David, I was hoping to email you about something (unrelated to this, or at least not directly related), but you don't post your email address. If you don't mind, could you email me your address? Thanks.
To my knowledge, there were never plans to connect the stations. They were not to be rehabilitated as a single project, just as two pilots for a large-scale program.
David
Interesting. So it's just a cooincidence that they just happened to be right next to each other. For a minute it sounded like they wanted to make connecting stations out of 50th and 49th. So was 50th supposed to become orange like 49th, with all the workds like sound-proofing, etc? I guess the fiscal crisis of the 70's killed the rehab for 50th?
I don't know what killed the 50th Street project (though the fiscal crisis would be a good guess), or how far along it got in the design phase. Here's what it says on page 44 of the MTA's publication "1968-1973 The Ten-Year Program at the Halfway Mark":
"SUBWAY STATION IMPROVEMENTS
"Prototype designs for station modernization were commissioned for two stations in Manhattan, the BMT's 49th Street station and the IRT-Seventh Avenue's 50th Street station. Plans cover improved entrances, stairs and change booths as well as new treatment of wall finish, floors and acoustics. Construction on the 49th Street station started early in 1973 and will be completed in a year. The design for the 50thStreet station will be completed in 1973, with construction to follow immediately."
In further answer to the Bowling Green question, the report goes on to say that the project started in July 1972.
David
Was there ever a publication at the end of the 10 year program that listed accomplishment and futhre plans?
--Mark
Nope...not that I have a copy of, anyway. By 1978 things had changed from 1973. The city had been through its fiscal crisis, and the grand plans of the late 1960s that started to reach fruition by 1973 had largely been shelved.
David
Was there ever a publication at the end of the 10 year program that listed accomplishment and future plans?
--Mark
Bowling Green was a much longer project, since they were basically creating about two-thirds of a new station from scratch. The work on carving out a new platform, new entrances and the underpass between platforms may have started in 1972, but the final work on putting the tiling up at the station wasn't completed until after the 49th St. BMT project was finished.
Didn't part of the underpass already exist, for access to the shuttle platform? Or was that accessible directly from the headhouse?
There was an underpass from the center platform to the rear (north) end of the shuttle platform and that was it. The exit on the west side of B'way at Battery Place, and of course the continuation of the underpass eastward to the new uptown platform and the exit into Bowling Green Park were all part of the 1970s renovation project.
Correct. If memory serves, the Bowling Green project took 5 years.
David
While it does not connect to the BMT, there is a connecting passageway (thanks to an office building) between the Downtown 1 Line and the Uptown C line. If you haven't seen it, the passageway is only open during the day Monday- Friday. Its is behind the main booth at both locatons. On the IRT side, it is near the fitness club.
dd
I have no dates, but whenever Wall Street (Lex), Bowling Green and 49 (BMT) come up again, they will restore the white tile. NYCT has decided (from public info) to use white tile as the main color to simplify maintenance and use colored tile for accent only.
the same applies to 5th av/53rd street and Herald Square (34/6th)
The 49th St. rehab was done in 1973, while the bulk of the Broadway cinder block tiles went up in 1970 in Manhattan. The rehab/rebuilding of the IRT Bowling Green station followed the 49th St. work, and was done in 1974-75.
what were/are the colors of the platform extension tiles at
LEX- astor place, 33rd st, 51st st, 59th st 68th, 77th, 86th, 96, 103rd, 110, 116, 125,
7th ave
50th, 34th, 28th, 23rd, 18th, christopher, houston, canal, franklin, rector, and cortlandt
Lenox
110, 116, 125th, and 135th.
Also, were any bronx stations redone in either of these styles(IND, or fridge tiles)?
also what did the extension of 137th look like
lower level 59th too
Any info/pictures appreciated for this and prior posts
The lower level at 59th was born as a 10-car platform, since it wasn't opened until 1961. But when it was it had the ugly TA green bathroom tile look that debuted a few years earlier at the Grant Ave. station on the IND.
As I'm thinking of taking my son to the aquarium tomorrow I was wondering if I could take the Brighton to W.8 Street. I know there are a lot of changes due to the Stillwell rehab but I'm not up on all the G.O.'s. If it doesn't, would the West End go to Stillwell. I'll be coming from the LIRR at Flatbush.
The W-West End Line is the only train that goes to Coney Island now so you'll have to walk to the Aquarium from Stillwell Av.
The West End is the only line that is currently going to CI and like V Train B47 Bus said, you have to walk to W 8 St.
These are the current terminals:
F: only going to Av X
N: only going to 86 St
Q: only going to Brighton Beach
So the West End is your only line.
Also, the Q is bypassing Atlantic in both directions this weekend.
West 8th Street Station is closed for the duration (so is Ocean Ave).
Best is the W, if you went to Brigton you would have to transfer to the B68 bus (Free metrocard transfer) which has been extended to Stillwell.
Plus it is raining all morning, you'll be in a fish environment on both ends.
I didn't know the I R T went here?? ;-)
'IRT' SIGN on eBay
Looks like it was mostly signed a an 'A' train based on the desination wear.
With the crank on top of the sign I'd say it was an R-10 which would explain its predominately "A" train use.
>>With the crank on top of the sign I'd say it was an R-10 which would explain its predominately "A" train use<<
The crank is on top because the sign box sits above the window upside down (crank handle down). The R-10,12,14,15 side sign boxes are basically the same.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would also say that the sign saw considerable use on the C and D. Judging by wear and tear.
Peace,
ANDEE
Seller made a mistake identifying that sign as an IRT sign. Strictly an IND sign from an R-10.
Bill "Newkirk"
The IND used the Boro Hall subtitle on two of its stations?
And a Greenbottle R10 as well, look, it's painted beige.
wayne
It's a Thunderbird sign, no doubt.
That's what happens when a seller really doesn't know what he is selling!
Or the seller isn'r from NYC!
When did Brooklyn abdicate from the City of New York?
;-) Sparky
When someone is selling IND roll signs and says they're IRT, Do you think he comes from ANYWHERE in NYC?
>>When someone is selling IND roll signs and says they're IRT, Do you think he comes from ANYWHERE in NYC? <<
In this case, we'll have to send William (Mr.R-10) Padron there to set him straight. Of course he'll have to endure a three hour lecture telling the difference between an R-10 and R-12/14 roll sign as well as a detailed history about the R-10 !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I have said it so many times I ought to put in a tape and mail it to your guys. The IRT is crud in Brooklyn and always has been. Brooklyn is the BMT----Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, West End ,etc, etc. I never knew a person in my family of relatives that rode the IRT in Brooklyn when they could have ridden the BMT----BMT, Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit.
And I never knew ANYONE who rode the BMT in da Bronx. We're even. :)
You got me Selkirk, but BMT does stand for Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit, not Bronx-Manhattan Transit so I wouldn't think the BMT would go or want to go there. Too far out of the way. Queens was, however, another kettle of fish. The BMT did traverse part way into the borough with the old #2 4th Avenue Local and maybe a few others. Enjoy your pizza up in the "sticks."
Well ... if'n yer gonna razz me about da BMT, I might redirect the point to "those WIMPS were scared of us Bronx kids and didn't have the STONES to set foot in OUR borough." Neener-neener. :)
But yeah, it was an OK Long Island choochoo alternative that put its big toe into Manhattan for many, many years, coming across the water and STOPPING. Wasn't until the dual contracts that they took a bigger bite out of Manhattan, so Queens being Long Island also - well, made sense.
One of the things I liked about working the D was that it was half IND, half BMT - almost like a "United Nations" of subway. And unlike the _real_ UN, ACCOMPLISHED something every 8 minutes. :)
I don't know if I ever told you this but I told my railfan buddies I traveled with that if I had not moved out of New York I would have become a motorman or conductor. That is no fish story either. I was a real subway rat as a kid. In fact, one of the reasons my folks moved out of New York was that they wanted to see me go to college and back them there wasn't a great opportunity for average students from lower middle class families. That came when Rockefeller became governor later on. Besides I wanted nothing to do with college when I was living in New York. If I couldn't be a major league baseball player, I was going to me a motorman. I hope you really enjoyed being one because I'm a little envious that you did it and I didn't. Stay warm buddy because I hear it's getting a little nippy up there right about now.
Actually the weather's pretty reasonable here today. Got up into the 50's, a veritable heat wave. Yeah, I was a foamer when I was a kid, TA cured me of that. And yo ... if you had been able to drag your sorry butt up to Branford along with Unca Bob, you COULD HAVE run a real train and had gotten that motorman itch thing of yours scratched. If you always wanted to do it, you coulda been a contenda ... :)
See what happens when you don't listen to yer Unca Selkirk, ya mook?
Well I've learned my lesson and from now on I'm listening to Selkirk. I'll be in Branford next fall.
Unca Dougie likes a stogy when operating, bring a couple and you'll probably get to do a round tripper or two on da BRT car. And you'll be a part of history. VERY similar to the cars Luciano wrecked that fateful night at Malbone Street. If you're into history, please don't repeat it. :)
After 30+ years since the last time I had an Arnine in my hands, it was REAL nice taking a subway train out for a ride. Got tired fast for me though. Just remember though, you WILL have to give up the handles at some point so Nancy can make her glide down the rails too. Heh. 1227 is a SWEET ride.
I think Nancy will want to commandeer 6688 next time, bingbong and all.:)
Oh Nancy's about as gung ho as it gets. If it takes a brake handle, she WANTS it. She ain't afraid of Dougie's car either. I married a TRUE foamette, hand throws and all. :)
You're a lucky man.:)
And SHE can run ANY train better than I can.
>>> one of the reasons my folks moved out of New York was that they wanted to see me go to college and back them there wasn't a great opportunity for average students from lower middle class families <<<
I guess those in Brooklyn never heard of CCNY, or was it too pink for your family? :-)
Tom
CCNY? Maybe. But there might not have been that much room for an average student like me, and when there is only one such college they can afford to be particular who they accept. As for pink my family was Democrat until Eisenhower when both folks became Republican. As for me I was Sergeant-at-Arms for the Young Democrats at both Fullerton Junior College and Long Beach State College as an undergraduate. Carter's imeptness and Reagan's toughness coverted me to the GOP. End of story.
Our buddy Selkirk TMO forgets that the Brightliners were BMT stock. And great rolling stock they had to be, because they supplanted the Triplexes. Once that first Brighton D Brightliner crossed from Manhattan to the Bronx, the BMT finally captured that borough.
does anyone out there want to have the dodgers back ??
U can have em !!
restore the railstation too..............
Na, you can keep the Dodgers. But we would like to have the Brightliners restored to their original look instead of the cyclops they were made into. And restoring the Franklin-Chambers weekend specials wouldn't be a bad idea, either.........
You've got my vote for the R-32 restoration. Bring back the blue doors, green backlit side signs, and bulkhead roller curtains. Restore the final field shunt step.
And remember, the straps. Theirs were the most comfortable of all...
Heh. Nah, didn't forget ... but it DID require us IND guys breaking through BMT dirt to make the Brightliners come to da Broncks on IND trackage. We were glad to HAVE them too. Made VERY pretty D trains they did they did. :)
Hehe....that was the TA's contribution to beautifying the Bronx....:-)
We were glad to have them and all, but I still preferred the Arnine. I was probably ALONE in that though. :)
The R-32s did their best impression of the Silver Streak Express as they streaked effortlessly along CPW. I saw an R-32 D train do just that at 81st St. once. Made it look easy.
They were QUITE peppy ... and secretly, they were my second favorite car. Got to run a couple of them, got to play "announcer" on a few of them, not a bad train at all. The cab took some getting used to at first though, kept thinking I was in a redboid. Then they started adding kwap like speedos and other silliness to them. Having seen the cab lately, it's a Frankentrain. And air conditioning? :P
Did the SMEE brake valve throw you for a loop? As I understand it, SMEE brakes respond almost as soon as you pull on the air handle.
I still think of those BMT motormen who had to get used to the control arrangement on R units when they first appeared. Big Ed went back and forth between R units and BMT equipment and did just fine.
You had to remember the differences. Not having to lap does make pulling handle a whole bunch easier than the older cars though. Current day train brakes are much like driving a bus with the exception of being hand-controlled. Then there's the 142's and 143's. I *hated* the "slide pot" control on the 44's (46's? Forget which, didn't have to run them but sure didn't like them in schoolcar). Even the silly 142/143 controller is more logical than the sliding gym locker handle. :)
IIRC both the R-44s and R-46s had single-handle controllers originally. I even remember when their original speedometers worked.
Yeah, got taught one of those in schoolcar along with the "don't sweat, you won't see one of these in your hands for at least ten years when your number gets high enough, but we gotta teach you this anyway." And DANG if I never set foot in one except as a geese. :)
Let me rephrase that: the R-44s and R-46s originally had that sliding T-handle controller. They still have single-handle controllers except that now they're rotary instead of going back and forth.
Hey Uncle Fred, that's for yaw rats in the underground.
Don't forget about the BMT's Surface Division, Brooklyn & Queens
Transit. The year of our birth, there was in the Northern most
part of the Borough, Crosstown, Grahm, Lorimer and Nassau.
Also served by the IND Subway's "GG".
Happy Boithday ;-) Sparky
Thanks for passing on the infor Sparky; always good to pick up additional info on the subway. Hope you had a great birthday on Friday and on that score we are now even. Let's hope the next few birthdays come on a little more slowly.
Give 'em hell, Fred.
I don't give them hell, I only tell them straight and some of them think they're in hell. But that goes only for the people not on Subtalk; the guys here are all straight shooters. BTW, that statement I stole from Harry Truman. Used to use it in my classrooms and it always got a few laughs. Go BMT.
The statement of mine I also stole from my namesake, Harry S. Truman, the last of the straight shooters. Best American president of the 20th century. Don't worry though, Fred, IMHO the best president ever was a Republican, Abraham Lincoln.
That last statement of yours is right on the mark. They can all fight it out for number two but the greatest Chief Executive ever was the great Abraham Lincoln, who to me was the greatest man since Jesus Christ.
He's obviously younger than you, or at least younger than you in distance travelled around the sun while in New York.
Ask any current non-railfan New Yorker. They won't know the difference either.
[When someone is selling IND roll signs and says they're IRT, Do you think he comes from ANYWHERE in NYC?]
Maybe the seller of the rollsign just isn't as well-versed in NYC or subway history as most SubTalkers are. (After all, not all New Yorkers are railfans, and not all New Yorkers choose to LIVE IN THE PAST.)
Hey! Hay! Ay! I *resemble* that statement (living in the past) ... REAL New Yorkers didn't NEED air conditioning, and didn't play "what's that smell?" THAT was the motorman's job! :)
Hey, maybe the roll sign just came from one of those R-12s/R-14s that reportedly got hooked to an A train consist of R-10s one time :-)
Been done. :)
DEFINITELY didn't come from Arnines ... glad I skipped this one, I always remember Artens in "teal and white" with a few graffed out to that stupid "war between the states, Holy Ronan Empire disco dance scheme" ... but never saw the top glass signs in BEIGE ... reminds me of telephones of the era. Heh.
DEFINITELY not "5 train" signs either.
Back on April 1 of last year Newkirk showed my a #4BMT Sea Beach roll sign and I was tempted to swipe it our of his hands. I know that if one suddenly went on sale somewhere I would go all out to buy it and pity the poor bastard that tried to prevent me from acquiring it.
Yeah, when we came down last Kissmoose, he was there proudly displaying it and as we hit various lines, he rolled it and explosed the PROPER route signage for the line we were hitting. Curiously when he came to Branford last week, he DIDN'T break it out. I s'pose he was afraid I'd grab it and put it UP since the old IND signs in 1689 did NOT have "Brighton Beach" for the bulkhead when I signed her up as a D. Bill's mighty smart and I *doubt* you would have gotten your mitts on that sign. I think he keeps it in his pants to impress the chickies. :)
Well now that he's been warned by both of us I'm sure he would never bring it out with me around anyway. Actually, I owe Selkirk for giving me a picture of a Triplex #4BMT Sea Beach taken during a fan trip in 1975. I framed it and have it in my living room. So I would refrain myself from committing a robbery.
Maybe when it was first offered on eBay, the seller wrote IRT meaning IND. Maybe it was a New Yorker who doesn't know any better. Maybe he might also be selling the Brooklyn Bridge!
>>> Maybe he might also be selling the Brooklyn Bridge! <<<
Yeah, but he would list it as the Manhattan Bridge. :-)
Tom
I really don't think he/she knows what they're selling. That sign is worth at least $300, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
On another note, anyone know of a font similar to the lettering on those signs? Been trying to figure it out, can't find anything even close.
That is a sign from an R-1/9 car. It certainly cannot be from any IRT car. FYI, no IRT subway car used roller sign at the side until the R-12s were placed into service in 1948. Roller signs were used on the 1939 World's Fair Low Vs on the ends of the cars.
#3 West End Jeff
>>That is a sign from an R-1/9 car<<
Incorrect Jeff, that sign is from an R-10.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-air1026,0,7587543.story?coll=ny%2Dnycnews%2Dfeatured
The NTSB confirmed that the AirTrain consist which derailed was traveling too fast, and that the curve was rated at 25 mph. It also confirmed that a safety system, a speed regulator, had been disabled prior to the test and therefore could not intervene.
The test was conducted to check the adequacy of electrical power supply to the rail system.
A final determination is not in yet, and it is unclear why the operator was running the train too quickly.
The test was conducted to check the adequacy of electrical power supply to the rail system.
What idiot came up with this one? It's a lot safer, easier, more useful to:
Determine the current draw at X speed.
Build a load bank and stick it on a rail car.
Pull it to X position and load the rail.
Aquire data.
In any case, Bombardier's EE's are so sloppy they can't calculate this out beforehand with a few fudge factors? (Hell, even I could and I'm not an EE) Or, were they looking for 'defects' (i.e. shoddy work) in the third rail?
What is a "load bank?"
Resistors connected across the third and fourth rails to consume electricity (dissipated as heat) to see how the electrical power supply system performs.
-Robert King
Thank you.
As Mr King pointed out, a bank of resistances. The basic idea is to create a simulated load that can simulate a train operating under any condition, without having to actually achive that condition. Thus, if they want to test the power system's ability to supply power to a train accelerating from 25 to 50mph in place X, they can put the bank there and simulate the load without actually going at those speeds.
Why BBD didn't go this route, I don't know.
Its cheaper to run a test train than to specially set up a simulator.
Unless you design a simulator when you design the train.
If Bombardier had planned to build multiple systems like this (and there is another one like this in Asia), a simulator could have been designed and built to go with it. When a customer buys your system (be it the Port Authority, NYCTA or whatever), the customer also gets the simulator, which helps with initial checkout, testing, and operator training.
But before condemning Bombardier out of hand, I'd want to hear what Bombardier's position is on the testing they chose to do. It is customary in America to hear all sides of a story before arriving at judgment (at least, I hope it is. :0))
By simulator, I mean a system for testing and portraying operator consoles, electrical equipment, braking systems - all major train systems. This is not just a fancy version of a Microsoft game.
Hate to differ here, but FIFTY OHMS in real metal is better EVERY time than 50 ohms in "service back 8" ... used to be, once upon a time that the ONLY time you EVER had to reboot a computer was after the fire trucks left and the building was pumped out, power restored, and entry permissions were granted.
Then came Microsuck. Moo. :(
I'll take METAL *any* day over some dumbass simulation fidged to work with a computer. I'm *in* the business, thus I know my realities. Screw the sim, where's the off-spec WHEEL pile? Only way to know what the cars would have done would be to LOAD it. So, let's fault the issues of WHY the speed limit was violated and WHY it wasn't possible to control the train. Was there an ASSHOLE in the cab? Don't THINK so. So WHAT HAPPENED? WHY did the train exceed the speed limit without being tripped?
Ain't no FUGGIN way I'd ride that beech ... if it went into a curve at MORE than 2*physics, it ain't the train, it ain't the crew, something's SERIOUSLY wrong there. Microsoft? Like I said, I'm IN the computer and software biz - I wouldn't trust a computer as far as I could light it up with powerful gasoline, a good book, and a shoeshine.
No, you're wrong.
Every simulator needs real-life data to validate its accuracy. But simulation today is good enough to reproduce the qualities of a lot of mechanical systems. Check out today's Newsday's article about the simulator's recreation of Flight 586's crash.
Having said that, the simulator cannot reproduce the motivations of humans who use (or misuse) trains, planes and automobiles...
Apologies right back at ya, bro ... I'm a CODER. Garbage in, garbage out. A simulator (let's be accurate here - "COMPUTER BASED THEORY MODEL" is as accurate as "your local weather forecast on the 8's") ... computer simulations have indeed gotten better over time, but STILL - the REAL world will choke Bill Gates every time. If computers were truly "trustworthy" to crunch the numbers accurately every time, I'd be with you. Still, my old slide rule proves more accurate EVERY time.
If you want to know when a train will DEFINITELY tip, only way to be sure is to put it past its enevlope, HOPEFULLY without carbon based lifeforms on board. A computer "model" is only as good as the data it's given. Reality is random, DESPITE mathematicians. Hope you can appreciate my point here, but computers can ONLY interpret RULES. When the rules go in the shitter, well ...
"Apologies right back at ya, bro ... I'm a CODER. Garbage in, garbage out. A simulator (let's be accurate here - "COMPUTER BASED THEORY MODEL" is as accurate as "your local weather forecast on the 8's") ... computer simulations have indeed gotten better over time, but STILL - the REAL world will choke Bill Gates every time."
But we're not talking about Bill Gates' stuff. Visit Flight Safety International sometime and look at their simulators. Visit one of Entergy's power plant simulators. Are they absolutely perfect? No. But they're close enough so that you can trust them.
Now, here's the caveat: The best simulators are in areas we understand well and in industry where there has been a long history "of good data collection. This is how you avoid "garbage in, garbage out." As a coder, you can only work with what you're given.
Areas where simulations are reliable because theyt work with data that are very well understood include:
-Flight and orbital mechanics
-Power plants (large scale plumbing and electrical power systems)
-Electronic circuits (integrated circuit design)
-Electromagnetic and sonic radiation applications (radar, sonar)
There are others...
"If computers were truly "trustworthy" to crunch the numbers accurately every time, I'd be with you. "
They are - but maybe not the one you're working with.
"Still, my old slide rule proves more accurate EVERY time."
A slide rule is a beautiful and marvelous thing (I still have one at home somewhere), but it's time has truly passed. It takes far too long to use one to do what you need to accomplish these days.
By the way, I have a fair amount of experience coding too (ex aerospace before med school, author of a pharmacology training program, medical informatics training) - it's fun stuff. I have to say, transitioning from structured programming (COBOL, JCL, CLISTS, Basic, PL/1, C) to Object Oriented Programming is very difficult (or maybe I'm just stupid...)
Object programming does INDEED bite, especially when it's Billy's weird Rubik's cubes of Bronx handshake inheritances. Agreed on the areas where simulations and modelling are done to a degree, but I still stand my ground that they're no panacea. Simple things like electrical loads might indeed work (but do they simulate things such as motor birdcaging and other anomolies of the real world?) but when you get into more complex relationships, reality likes to follow a curve that the simulator might not be in.
All of us have heard our local Teevee weatherdroid talk about "the computer models show that this should turn into QUITE a storm by Friday" and when Friday comes, the sun is out and everybody in the weather center, though wearing egg on their face forget entirely about what they said back on Tuesday. Same deal ...
I wonder if the computer simulations had a variable for shifting of the concrete inside the car at speed? :)
Orbital mechanics, circuits and internal power and electrical systems are isolated systems -- you can pretty much control the inputs. You know each of the pipes, its static pressure, how it has behaved before, etc., and you can model it. But with clumsy machinery in an open environment -- like weather systems which Selkirk refers to -- you can have unpredictable inputs. "Oh, we didn't expect the top of the train to pull on the car couplings that way." It's not a true mathematical model, and it has to be tested in vivo.
"But with clumsy machinery in an open environment -- like weather systems which Selkirk refers to -- you can have unpredictable inputs. "Oh, we didn't expect the top of the train to pull on the car couplings that way." It's not a true mathematical model, and it has to be tested in vivo."
False statement. You're obviously not familiar with either mathematical modelling or the science of simulation. Professional flight simulators simulate a very complex environment, and a train line is no more complex than an aircraft - in fact, probably much less so.
Simulating the weather is at a level far, far above simulating a train or an airplane, and requires the use of supercomputers.
Professional flight simulators simulate a very complex environment, and a train line is no more complex than an aircraft - in fact, probably much less so.
There seems to be some confusion in this thread between simulation and predictive modeling.
Simulation is (roughly) when you have a program which can mimic known results based on known inputs. For example, a full-motion airplane simulator. As long as the results are known and have been coded into the system, you will get a faithful reproduction of what would happen in real life. If you generate some off-the-wall inputs that have never been coded for, you will either get a bogus result or have a shutdown due to an error condition. For the airplane simulator I mentioned, an off-the-wall input would be to turn the nose wheel all the way to one side or the other and throttle up. Unless CAE fixed this in the last few years, you spin around and around and ascend 8-)
Predictive modeling is used to take some of the guesswork out of projects by attempting to apply rules (or what we think are rules) to complex systems, in order to eliminate obviously incorrect designs / assumptions. For example, a new airplane wing design would be predictively modeled before actual wind tunnel tests of a scale model, and then full-size. Weather prediction is in this category as well.
As far as I can see, the AirTrain test didn't fall into either category and thus wasn't suitable for either simulation or modeling.
"As far as I can see, the AirTrain test didn't fall into either category and thus wasn't suitable for either simulation or modeling."
Based on what did you determine that? Your argument is not supported by anything.
For accurate simulation you need to have a database to begin with. True enough. But there is nothing exotic about AirTrain, and there is no reason why this kind of data cannot have been collected and/or reasonable predictions made.
>>> But there is nothing exotic about AirTrain, and there is no reason why this kind of data cannot have been collected and/or reasonable predictions made <<<
It is my understanding that the testing of the Airtrain was to collect data for that particular train and track combination. Although similar to other tracks and trains, it was unique. Operating tests were a perfectly reasonable way to gather data. The big question, yet to be determined, is what went wrong with this test?
Tom
That's what we're all waiting to find out...
The question would STILL be though "did the computer expect the concrete to shift?" I'm still wagering that it wouldn't have. GIGO.
"The question would STILL be though "did the computer expect the concrete to shift?""
Not while the train was going around the curve. Based on the math it's highly unlikely that it did shift while the train stayed on the tracks.
Unfortunately, once the train rapidly decelerated after derailing, the concrete turned deadly.
Similarly, a lot of people travel with an 50 or 80 pound dog in the back seat of their car. It's harmless as long as the car is rolling along, but if the car is suddenly stopped by an obstacle the dog can turn a minor accident into a fatal one.
See AIM's reply.
Predicting the motion of a stack of concrete on a train like that would have been easier than predicting the movement of a bunch of people...think about it...of course I'm not saying Bombardier would have thought about that automatically (perhaps they should have) (and I would not have either, but then I'm not in that business).
OK, so now:
We wait for NTSB to release more findings
And I still want the PA to push forward with their own reassessments and change proposals. Nothing so far suggests the train itself is inherently unsafe - but there is still some remedial work to be done.
Oh, quite agreed ... and don't mind me ... I'm a throwback to Novell networks, Multics and PL/1 ... but now that Microsoft rules the world, I've learned to become a Luddite when it comes to trusting Billyware to do anything beyond falling over and smelling funny. I refuse to believe anymore that the NEXT version of Windows will work and that applying yet another service pack will do anything good. :)
I just don't TRUST computers anymore.
Like I said before - you don't work with the REAL stuff (like 7 super mainframes working together in a network). :0)
If mainframes worked in unison, then we'd have an accurate measure of how much snow is going to fall here tomorrow as well as over the weekend. Go ahead, run the sim. :)
No dissing ya, bro ... BILLY runs our government. BILLY runs our metrocards. BILLY runs our CIA computers, FBI, everything government and anti-terrorist. And the terrorists have ROOTED themselves. Whoops. Supercomputers CAN'T run Microsquish. Yay! :)
Naw, tell us how you really feel. Microbashing aside (I would like to saw Redmond off and into the ocean as well), I wonder if the reason that aircraft dynamic modeling is more advanced than rail is that there is no rail reaction -- no ties, spikes, welds to break, no riding up and over a crown of a steel rail and friction resistance. Just air, which is reasonably predictable at given temperatures.
"Microbashing aside (I would like to saw Redmond off and into the ocean as well), I wonder if the reason that aircraft dynamic modeling is more advanced than rail is that there is no rail reaction -- no ties, spikes, welds to break, no riding up and over a crown of a steel rail and friction resistance. Just air, which is reasonably predictable at given temperatures."
Wrong, Mike. Nothing you've mentioned can't be modeled reasonably with current technology. The reason they may not be modeled now is because there's no perceived $$$ incentive to put the time and resource in to do so.
Now now, modellers... even *I* know that there are things you can't model. I would challenge you to come up with a model of what is going on in Rachel's head :)
AEM7
Heh. Sorry about that. I had hoped to be home and sleeping before sunrise and instead, we found more trojan horses floating around than you can shake a saddle at. ALL those (ahem, kaff) "service packs" and "security updates" have only made things WORSE. :(
But yes, it's the TRACK physics that can make real railroading a bit more complex - also the reason why I *love* the BVE train sim myself. Trains rock, roll and RIDE there. Shouldn't be all THAT complicated to sim it. And while modelling things in a computer will indeed get you pretty close to reality, remember that those Acela brackets were reichstad gepruft based on CAD/CAM and they broke anyway.
Areas where simulations are reliable because theyt work with data that are very well understood include:
-Flight and orbital mechanics
-Power plants (large scale plumbing and electrical power systems)
-Electronic circuits (integrated circuit design)
-Electromagnetic and sonic radiation applications (radar, sonar)
There are others...
Among them are queueing and waiting times. Even those whose fundamentals are not completly understood can be simulated using Monte Carlo techniques.
So, why are you do you disagree, when such simulations show that 40 tph operation is possible and find reasonably easy means for obtaining it.
"So, why are you do you disagree, when such simulations show that 40 tph operation is possible and find reasonably easy means for obtaining it."
Maybe because the means aren't so reasonably easy in NYC.
What mean dwell time and standard deviation of dwell time do these models assume? Is there any evidence that these means and standard deviations are actually practical in a city with the general disrespect for authority abundant in NYC?
Do the simulations exactly duplicate the actual patterns of timers and signals used in NYC subways since NYCT has become litigation-conscious, or do they use patterns that NYCT isn't willing to use out of prudence (whether excessive prudence or not), even though logic would say that those patterns are acceptable?
Do the simulations add in 20 seconds of additional time at 14th Street to allow the gap fillers to activate and withdraw?
"Among them are queueing and waiting times. Even those whose fundamentals are not completly understood can be simulated using Monte Carlo techniques."
Yes, very good.
"So, why are you do you disagree, when such simulations show that 40 tph operation is possible and find reasonably easy means for obtaining it. "
I fully agree with you that your simulation techniques for queuing are useful. But the NYCCTA problem is more problematic than calculating AirTrain behavior around a curved track - due to crew behavior.
Recall that an aircraft simulator will "crash" the airplane if the crew does something stupid.
I will concede the 40 tph point to you if you propose how one might factor in relatively untrained crews. Here's the challenge: NYCTA has ensured passenger safety through signal and timer arrangements which prevent the crews from making mistakes which could result in injuries. Clearly, management does not trust the crews to the degree required for 40 tph operation.
Propose a simulator which would allow for varying crew skill levels (this might be simulated indirectly, in a manner similar to how board war games simulate "fog" - imperfect information) - and speculate on solutions which might arise therefrom.
I will concede the 40 tph point to you if you propose how one might factor in relatively untrained crews. Here's the challenge: NYCTA has ensured passenger safety through signal and timer arrangements which prevent the crews from making mistakes which could result in injuries.
Simulation shows that the current Lex Ave infrastructure, including the signal system, is capable of 39 tph operation. No change in operating procedure is necessary regarding "key-by" and other red herrings.
Propose a simulator which would allow for varying crew skill levels ...
Starting, stopping and interstation travel times are a modelled as a gaussian random variable whose mean and standard deviation values are based on actual measurements. Dwell times are poisson random variables whose means are proportional to headway.
The simulation does not account for such observed operating practices as T/O's waiting for 45 seconds after a signal at an interlocking turns green because he had not finish reading a page in a book or towers not clearing a waiting train through an interlocking for 50 seconds despite a clear block ahead. etc.
management does not trust the crews to the degree required for 40 tph operation.
Operation during the am rush hour is consistent with a system that has no management at all. Variablity for departure headway is greater than arrival headway for every station along the route. Simulations with no corrective action show this as do observations. This is true whether the system is crowded or whether this the observations are made during quasi-holidays such as Good Friday (Wall St closed) or a Friday July 5th. There simply is no management and no facilities are in place to properly coordinate the movement of trains relative to their leaders.
"Dwell times are poisson random variables whose means are proportional to headway."
Is that assumption consistent with actual measured dwell times? Are NYC subway passengers really that predictable?
Damn it, I haven't the time to read the entire thread. I was just out at Park St collecting data on dwell time of Green Line cars today. Will post the results on here when I have the thing plotted.
But I can tell you RIGHT NOW -- dwell time is NOT a simple science. Variables that affect dwell time includes: load factor, operator, no. of doors, location of exits on the station platform... on the first-order, it might be poisson, but systematic skews can be seen even with as few as 50 data points. For instance, if a station had three exits, one at either end of the platform and one at the middle, that station will have lower dwell times than one which had two exits both near one end of the platform. The effects are significant.
There's been a bunch of papers on station dwell times (one I've seen happens to be on Melbourne trams). The general consensus is that there is *NO* universal dwell time model. You can derive a model for a given station with a given vehicle, but if you change the station around a bit or change the vehicle, you've screwed it up again. The only thing that is reasonable poisson is the time it takes for x paxs to disembark and board, and the distribution of door-shutting patterns across the entire population of train operators.
[end Stats 101]
AEM7
"dwell time is NOT a simple science"
That was my suspicion. Espcially when you have rambunctious New Yorkers who hold doors open when it is highly impolite to do so. That is why I have doubts about the 39 tph simulation.
A reasonable technical discussion of dwell time components is given in Transportation Research Board's "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual", part 3 chapter 3. Two methods modelling are described. I assume you were using the observed reading method and getting data for deriving a mean and standard deviation.
A reasonable technical discussion of dwell time components is given in Transportation Research Board's "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual", part 3 chapter 3.
I haven't read this particular manual myself. Given that I haven't read the manual, I don't intend to follow its methodology. Mean and standard deviation will necessarily be part of my calculations of dwell time, but only a very minor part of my calculations.
AEM7
Just how fishy does Mr Baumann think this is? This is REAL dwell time data -- from this morning. OK, there's sampling biases, etc, and it looks sort of Poisson, if you squint your eyes. But it's not that simple. Notice how there is a camel's hump pattern? Cuz we caught part of the period immediately after the peak, when the dwell time average went down from about 70 seconds to about 30 seconds.
AEM7
The studies that I've seen use more data points about the same time period. They also divide dwell time into 3 distinct periods: the time when passengers are moving; the time period when the doors are open but there is no passenger movement and the time that the doors are closed but the car is not moving.
The question of a poisson model refers to the period when passengers are moving through the doors. It is not used to estimate the time that an operator may keep the doors open because his way is not clear.
I haven't used the Park St station regularly, since September 1964. There are some things that I remember that do have some bearing. The dwell time component for passenger movement is related to the number of passengers trying to enter and leave the car. I'm assuming thet you measured the times on the northbound tracks. There are two different platforms. The inner platform is for cars that terminate at Park St. All passengers would be exiting but will use only the right side of the car. The outer platform is for cars terminating at Government Center, North Sta and Lechmere. It will have passengers both entering and exiting - but both sides open. You must separate the two out because of the difference in functions and number of doors.
This also raises the question of what the headway should be. My experience had been that most of the passengers enter the cars on the surface and not at the Boyleston St or Huntington Ave Subway stations. (This may have changed slightly because the Watertown line was operating, when I made this observation.) Therefore, the headway measurement should be based on the interval between trains of the same line and not by their arrival times at Park St.
I'd assume that this is a typo. I doubt your graph's metric that dwell times are in the order of 20 minutes and above. I also believe that you should measure headways in seconds and not minutes.
I never intended to imply that the same poisson statistic would be constant throughout the entire day and day of the week. I would separate the data by 15 minute blocks and measure the dwell times for each.
I think that if you try to separate disparate data by these categories and then run a simple regression, then you will find that the passenger movement period will wbe surpisingly linear with respect to headway.
Damn it, why do you kids ALWAYS get into this kind of argument?
A load bank is a PHYSICAL simulation of the load -- not a COMPUTERIZED simulation. We used to use mobile load banks to test 25kV wires after it's been installed. Beats burning up a motor on a train. But you still have to test it with a real train even after load bank tests, because the train isn't a purely resistive load.
The test they were conducting sounds like something they were doing to ensure the power supply functioned properly, therefore the train is required to accelerate in certain places to produce the current draw. As Phil said, a load bank would have been a better test of simlpy current draw. Whatever the test they were running, it should not have been necessary to produce the kind of error condition they encountered. Anyway, heaviest current draw occurs when you're accelerating not when you're running at speed, so there is no excuse for running a current draw test at 55mph.
AEM7
You make a good point there.
I would like to know what Bombardier's answer would be.
It is also still possible the operator did something unauthorized by Bombardier. NTSB will have to determine that...
...before condemning Bombardier out of hand, I'd want to hear what Bombardier's position is on the testing they chose to do. It is customary in America to hear all sides of a story before arriving at judgment
The operator's testimony will not be heard only Bombardier's.
The other question which will have to be a guess is when the acceleration took place and why. My hook down there thought that part of the speeding was due to operator panic when the concrete started to shift on him.
Sadly, that is true.
Shades of Edward Luciano, circa 1918.
Thursday's Metro had a short but interesting story on the PCC rehab currently underway.
Also, rumor has it that the rehabbed cars will get the old PTC green/cream scheme. This will certainly be nice.
>>Also, rumor has it that the rehabbed cars will get the old PTC green/cream scheme. This will certainly be nice.<<
Since these PCC's will be air conditioned as per their GOH, I wonder what their roof line will look like. Maybe like the Pittsburgh PCCs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
From what we understand, the rebuilt cars will look like a PCC, but won't be. No PCC technology will be used. The cars will be an LRV in the shell of a PCC.
We will see what they will look like when the first car is delivered from Brookville.
>> No PCC technology will be used.<<
Same or different trucks ?
Bill "Newkirk
I've been told that the trucks will be 'different', but I'm not sure what that means (whether they will be the same and look different, or whether different trucks will be used).
As far as the roofline is concerned, SEPTA seems to be big on the roof-mounted units for all other vehicles, thus I would expect to see something similar on the PCC's.
From what I have read/learned, the trucks will be similiar to the trucks on the K cars. No TRC components are to be used, and reportedly all the B-2's on the cars will be either returned to SEPTA or made available to museums. Since it's the trucks and the ERPCC/TRC derived control equipment that makes a PCC a PCC, the Red Arrow St. Louis cars had some TRC-like control equipment but Commonwealth trucks, so the TRC did not consider them to be PCCs.
As to roof treatments, most likely like the Silver Sightseer in DC, or the Pittsburg 1700's roof teatment.
I hope that the AC unit can be designed to complement the roofline (similar to the Pittsburgh 1700's or those on many Boston PCC's) rather than like the Silver Sightseer (which was similar to those boxy vent units on the Cleveland cars). The 2100-series PCC's had small roof fans which would seem to be able to work with AC systems. We await the results...
I have another question;
Since X amount of PCC cars will be overhauled and AC'd, will there be any remaining PCC cars left as is ? Museum equipment included or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is a small "historic" fleet (see the posts on the Rt. 23 fantrip further down in the index for an example) as well as 8534. However, this is SEPTA, and who knows what's going to happen, especially after Bob Hughes retires. Most rail transit systems are pretty brain dead about their system's history, New York included. SEPTA is no worse or no better. No system tends to preserve it's own history or save examples of older equipment. That's why Branford, Seashore, PTM, BSM, Orange Empire, RTY, National Capital, Western Railway and Halton County were all formed.
Even the cars they have in the historic fleet aren't "as original" anymore. Many many changes were made during the GOM program. The only cars that will come close are the ones at Scranton and Bob Hughes car in Seashore when the old parts get put back on. Even SEPTA's own air-electric is a combo of GOM parts and originals - ever wonder why the nose looks funny?
Regarding the GOM overhaul cars - that FedEx truck cab window really looks out of place, but I suppose its way better than the leakers that were originally in there (Shaker Hts. used to stuff the cavity above the window with lots of editions of Cleveland Plain Dealers). Leaks on top of your head and on your hands might a concern where you'd have 32v and 600v live under your finger switches. BZZZT!
The TTC got rid of the 600 in the gang switch on the A15 cars, which is a modification that I personally agree with, not only because of the water concerns.
Frankly, the idea of sitting in a seat with some 600 volt wiring above my lap in a confined space like the PCC's driver's area in a moving vehicle is very unappealing to me. If the streetcar rearends something else, especially if it's something like another streetcar or a truck, the accident's going to be bad enough without live 600 volt wiring spilling out on the driver's lap to top it off if the gang switch console breaks open.
When the TTC did the A15 rebuild, the 600 volt circuits were removed from the gang switch. 32 volt circuits were installed in their place to activate relays that actually handled the 600 volt circuits.
I have been buzzed by 32 volts while operating PCCs and I'd much rather be buzzed by 32 volts than 600, which is why I favour the banishment of the 600 volt lines from the gang switch. And, I'd prefer not to be buzzed at all than by 32 volts.
-Robert King
The trucks are CKD-Tatra derivatives, the type which was also used under the rebuilt T3R's in the 90's and I think also the new New Orleans cars. Technically, the trucks are not a TRC design, but had their origins on the 60 y/o B3 designs, with numerous improvements.
The wheels apparently are going to be new super-resilient assemblies from Penn Machine, so those are a TRC PCC design.
The controls are all new electronics. No PCC electromechanical parts here.
I also wonder how they will handle the AC units vs the PCC body. If they've saved all that space formerly used by the control boxes, maybe there's enough room for an underfloor AC arr't? Unlikely, but it would be a shame to stick lumps on the roof (great caesar's almond joy!)
It will be an interesting combo of parts to say the least, I hope it all works well together.
Last I heard there was a clearance problem at City Hall loop if Kawasaki-type roof-mounted AC units were to be used. Not sure of resolution but did hear of proposal to mount them beneath the carbody rearward of rear truck (under the battery box). Also heard a rumor they would consist of two small Thermo King units wired together (like those on some school buses). That was quite a while ago; hopefully there's been good progress since.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
On the Rt. 23 Fantrip they said that the prototype rebuild would be back in January for test which I assume includes clearance testing.
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i know that some cars could join in 10 car trains(R32,R38,R40,R46,R142
R142a)but were the R42 ever joined in a 10 car train?and if so on what
lines did they run on?
til next time
Technically speaking the R44/46 is an 8 car train, but it is of 10 car length.
Unfortunately I don't know the answer about the R42's.
the 42s ran on every B Division line,so they pretty much ran 4 to 6 to 8,then 10 car trains where needed[such as the A,D,E,F in those days]
The last 10 car R42 solid consist I ever rode on was on the Q right after the AB tracks re-opened in December 1988. For over a month, the Q was entirely pre-GOH R42. After New Years, I guess these cars were off to be overhauled.
There were 10 car R23/40M mixed consists running on the N and Q during the Willy B closre of 1999.
I rode on a 10-car R-40M N train two weeks ago.
The last 10 car R42 solid consist I ever rode on was on the Q right after the AB tracks re-opened in December 1988. For over a month, the Q was entirely pre-GOH R42. After New Years, I guess these cars were off to be overhauled.
There were 10 car R42/40M mixed consists running on the N and Q during the Willy B closre of 1999.
You'll see them pretty soon on one or two of the Coney Island-based lines -- probably the N and maybe the diamond-Q.
Did any of the R-42s operate outside of the BMT Eastern division other than the portion of the "M" that runs on the West End Line?
#3 West End Jeff
As delivered? Absolutely! Every line except the shuttles had some. Cars 4596-4695 ran on the "B", and sometimes were seen on the "A" and "AA". In fact, the R42 ran on the "D" well into the late 1980s, right up to the time the went out to GOH.
wayne
You forgot when the Willy B. closure took place that the R42's ran on the N along with the R40M's, as well as the 6th Ave. orange bullet Q back in 1999. They did use 10 car trains then along with the mixtures of slants.
I've already seen a mixed consist on the "N" line. R-40M & R-42.
R-42's on the N? When did CIY get R-42's?
Probablu runoff from the L since they're getting the nice and shiny R143's.
I know the R-42's were eventually going to be going to CIY. I just didn't realize the move had already begun. ENY still has some R-40M's, no? I thought all the R-40M's were going to be moved before the first R-42.
Let's see if CIY tries to keep the R-40M's and the R-42's in separate consists. They look pretty bad together. (Then again, I think I'm the only one here who thinks they look drastically different -- lots of people can't even tell them apart.)
(Then again, I think I'm the only one here who thinks they look drastically different -- lots of people can't even tell them apart.)
Aside from the obvious difference - the skinny door on one end, the R40M's have a distinctive "dent" along the middle of the entire car, which the R42's clearly do not have. There are some other minor differences also. I always found it very easy to tell them apart.
And for those who miss the dent and the skinny door, all they have to do is sit down once they enter the R40M - sitting in those seats will leave no doubt that they are in the R40M's!
The interior decor is what jumps out at me. The R-42 has both exposed metal and painted surfaces, and the signbox is pretty similar to the signbox on the R-62 and R-68. The R-40M, like the R-40, has only painted metal, and the signbox is divided into oval segments. To my eyes, the R-42 is classy while the R-40(M) looks very dated. The R-40 (though not the R-40M) certainly gets points for its distinctive look, and these days I'm happy to get any railfan window I can get, but the R-40 is one of the ugliest cars in the system, though the front end of the (post-GOH) R-32 and the side of the R-142(A) are also on the list. The R-42, OTOH, is quite handsome. (All IMO, of course. I realize I've just made disparaging remarks about three of the most popular cars around here while complimenting the one everybody ignores.)
I realize I've just made disparaging remarks about three of the most popular cars around here while complimenting the one everybody ignores.)
Well, even though the R40 slants are one of my favorite cars, they are far from pretty. I think part of what makes everyone like them so much is the fact that they are so unique. It's like someone falling for an extremely ugly person that has a good personality. That's how I feel about the slants. (Their R40M brothers don't have the luxury of the slant end though, they have no saving grace).
The R32's aren't that bad, but they sure did mess up the fronts in the rebuild. They may have been filthy before they rebuilt them, but they were much more attractive before.
As for the R42's, I agree they are, and always have been, a very attractive car, their sign boxes a lot less sloppy than their R40 "twins". The R42's are though beginning to show their age at this point.
For the most part the R-40Ms and R-42s have been sorted out and the R-40Ms are running in solid trains. There are one or two mixed consists still running on the M. All of the R-40M N trains I saw were solid trains.
There are one or two mixed consists still running on the M.
As of about a week ago, I was on a mixed consist. (It was only two R40M though, the rest were R42).
Just had one today or yesterday (Gee whiz, those early early jobs-- it's all a blur now). I at first saw 40m's, but two 42's were on my end so I could have to use the enabler.
I saw a consist on the "N" at City Hall some time ago now...
The R40M are already running in ten-car formation on the "N".
As for our friends the R42, they have spent SO MUCH time in Eastern Division, where they can't run more than 8 cars, one would think they weren't capable of running as 10-cars. This is not so.
AS DELIVERED, EXCEPT ON THE EASTERN DIVISION LINES, the R40Ms and R42s ran 10-cars. This would include the A, AA, B, D, E, EE, F, GG, N and RR lines, using the route designations used in 1969 and 1970.
wayne
They ran as 10 car sets on the northern D well into 1988. However, by 1989 they were all on the eastern division of they were being GOH'ed.
I observed a 10 car train of R40M on the W line today.
AA,B,C,EE,B, GG and N train ran 8 car trains untill the mid-70's[N and GG went to 10 car trains with the R46].AA's never ran em',nor did the EE.
>>>[N and GG went to 10 car trains with the R46.<<<
Ten car trains with the R-46. That's 750 feet. I don't think so.
;-) Sparky
10 car length,8 car train,stopping at the 10 car marker.
Clarification accepted.
;-) Sparky
The GG never ran 10 cars for normal service. Even after the R46 was introduced in the late 1970's, the GG mostly used 6 car R10's or R32's. 6-car R46 GG trains were rare, but not unheard of. Only after the R32's came back from their GOH in 1989-90 did the G become nearly 100% R46.
i think they did run 10 car R46,i saw some on the V line 2 years ago.
til next time
10-car trains of R-46 cars have never run in passenger service.
There was no V train two years ago. It was inaugurated in December 2001.
David
my bad, i ment this year and are you sure there were never any 10 car
R46,cause they can do that,take a set of 2 R46 and hook it to 2 sets
of 4 car R46 and u got 10 cars.i swear i saw a 10 car R46 on the V line.
til next time
750 feet of subway train? I don't think so. Most of the platforms the R-46s would pass are 600-660 feet long (yeah, I know there are a few scattered around that are longer).
David
You might be able to shoehorn a 10-car train of 75-footers at 34th St. on the 6th Ave. line.
But only on the uptown side. Why is that platform so long, anyway?
Peace,
ANDEE
Why are there 2 sets of diamond crossovers between the express tracks north of that station? Why does 59th St. have a center platform? Classic IND overbuilding.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could take one of those diamond crossover sets and transplant it two blocks west?
34th St. was a terminus before the express tracks were built between there and W. 4th St. There used to be a lot more switching and train maneuvering prior to Chrystie St. D trains crossed over in both directions, and during nights and weekends, you had F trains crossing over to one of the two inner tracks. The only route that had it easy was the rush hour BB. Still, two scissor switches between the express tracks seems a bit extravagant.
The center platform at 59th St. was meant to speed up passenger loading and unloading by having passengers exit from express trains to the center platform and board from the outer platforms. I remember using the center platform during rush hours around 1969. Supposedly this practice was dropped because it was too time consuming to open doors on both sides when the door controls were in the cabs. I would imagine it would be easier with the conductor in a full-width cab.
When you rolled into 59th in a 1/9 or a 10, no problem, reach, pull, slap. Newer cars did present a problem and I remember the few times on 32's listening to the geese whine about missing their connection because center didn't open up, or did so too late. You'd TRY to get both sides when you could, but it's get nuts in the rush THERE. I can see why it eventually got dropped, but Arnines ALWAYS got opened both side, as did 10's ... and no, full width wouldn't have bought you much more, it was the PLATFORM CONDUCTOR that made it all happen. No PC, SOL.
And as to the crossovers, it was the WAY of the IND. Train laid down at a platform, ROUTE around, KEEp the trains rolling. Simple IND philosophy. Train lays down, railroad doesn't, NO film at 11. :)
That doesn't explain why there are so few switches along 8th Ave. After Canal St., the only scissor switch I've seen is the one just past 59th on the n/b side.
59th was a major bottleneck, so they wanted as many chances to win as possible in the design. That's what I was talking about. They did similar on 6th Avenue, probably from bad experiences on 8th. Who knows? But what I meant there was if I came up the ramp and the local side was open, they'd throw me over there sometimes, then put me back on the express track on the way out. Many chances to win ...
They could put in a n/b scissor switch south of 23rd if they really wanted to. There are no I-beams between the local and express tracks just before the station for a hundred feet or so. Maybe there used to be a switch there long ago.
It's a SB switch that's really needed. If an A train departs 59th on the express track just when a train stalls in the Cranberry tube, that A train is stuck -- it can't be rerouted without reverse moves. The best it can do is terminate at WTC.
...two scissor switches between the express tracks seems a bit extravagant.
Only a single pocket (uptown side) was used for the BB. The downtown scissor permitted a short BB to wait for the 34th to clear without delaying a following D. The uptown scissor is required to permit full switching between uptown and downtown sides.
I stand corrected. Are they using both sets of scissor switches for B and D trains, or are they making do with just the one near 34th St.?
They're just using the one near 34th St.
Peace,
ANDEE
With full width cabs, it could be done again. The only thing that would have to be done prior to entering 59Th would be for the conductor to open the window so the PC could stick his/her hand in.
With full width cabs, it could be done again. The only thing that would have to be done prior to entering 59Th would be for the conductor to open the window so the PC could stick his/her hand in.
True, bit then every class of car running on the line would have to be using the full length cabs. It wouldn't work right if one train was an R44, and could open, but then the next car was an R32 and couldn't. But eventually as the whole system gradually gets full sized cabs, I guess it will be possible to do once again. (Although there seems to be some kind of glitch. Someone here mentioned that the M train can't open both sides of the train when using the R143's on the shuttle at Myrtle. It can only open doors on one side of the train. I don't know why though).
Yup...one platform is 750 feet long (just right!) and the other is 700 feet long. But to what end? The rest of the line couldn't handle the train, so what would be the point?
David
A moot one, that's for sure.
when the 46's first arrived,the GG did indeed run 8 cars[at least for a short time,I remember it well,since i use to ride it all the time.]
Yeah, but it wasn't a normal pattern. GG trains have always been "shorter" then their IND cousins.
10 car trains of R-42s ran regularly on the D, pre-GOH.
Peace,
ANDEE
Did you forget the Willy B. closure with the Q running on the 6th Ave. with the orange bullet. The extra R42's that run on the M were given to the Q back then with a few on the N back in 1999. They had 10-car trains.
I just found out the the R143'a can't run in 12 cars train. I know that 12 cars don't run in service, but are train that are trainsfered to and from yards. I did one from 207st yard to Piken yard about a year ago. But anyway when the third set is hooked up the computer dieds in the hole train. it can't handle the extra cars.
Robert
What about the E,F,N of the 70's [and the from the 1980's] pre GOH?
"[and the from the 1980's] pre GOH"
Correction:
And what about the in the 1980's before the GOH?*
"[and the from the 1980's] pre GOH"
Correction:
And what about the Q in the 1980's before the GOH?*
The R42's did have 10 car trains during the Willy-B construction in 1999, in which the extra cars from the Eastern Division went to the orange (Q) in 1999 for about 6 months, R32's also ran in 10 cars on the (Q) but mostly during middays. Now, R40M's and soon some R42's are/will being coupled into 10 train cars to run on the N and probably the .
All IRT lines except the 7 are 10 cars.
Lines and rolling stock that have 10 car trains(R32,38,40/40M,42)
R32: A,E,F,N,R
R38: A
R40: N,, and occasionally the W
R4OM: N & probably
R42: soon N and probably
Where was the following picture taken? (By the way, I'm not 100% sure of the exact location but I know the general area)
My guess is that it's on a movie set.
You're very close, Peter.
A Theme Park In Florida?
Yes, It's Universal (or maybe MGM - That's the part I can't remember exactly)
My guess is that it's on a movie set.
The Wiz?
Is it the New York thing in Vegas?
IIRC Universal Studios in Orlando - I have a picture of it too somewhere around the house...
Correct!
Boy... That poor car is in BAD shape!
Elias
Probably in better shape than a lot of the rest of the fleet. R-10's were falling apart in the 70's, many of them somehow made it to the 80's though I cannot for the life of me fathom HOW. But many of them looked that bad in the 70's.
With the clerestory (as opposed to ogee) roof, it looks like a misbegotten R9, with its Eastern Division paint job, dressed up as a "CC" train. The route roll sign looks to be authentic.
wayne
Somehow I suspect it isn't ANY of the R cars, but the unique rot around each and every rivet was a unique signature of the R10's, even with the Holy Ronan Empire paint job ala Earl Scheib. :)
It doesn't look like an R-10. The clerestory on the R-10s was rounded while the R-1/9s had a squared-off clerestory.
Actually it WAS an R10 which got GOH'd be the same people who did the 32's ... they made it 9 feet wide, pulled some Arnine parts, used salt-water based paint to paint it and installed air conditioning after installing a pneumatic PA system and fender dents. :)
Is this an exhibit in a theme park in Florida?
I remember seeing that train when I was 6.
I think it's on the King Kong ride in Universal Studios in Florida, speaking of which you enter into the 7th Ave entrance of the old Penn Station.
Disney World - in the MGM theme park?
Is that an R28 or R29?
I can't tell the difference.
Is that an R28 or R29?
That's an Arnine -- just to piss off Selkirk, it's an R-1 or R-4. Yes, there was life before Redbirds.
Actually, the window looks too small; would an R-27/30 storm door fit on a '9? ;)
Ya, the door handle is not brass as it should.
Plus the window is smaller than the large single pane used on the R-1s and R-4s. The storm door must have been swapped out.
Kongfrontation, formerly at Universal Studios, Orlando. The attraction closed mid-September for replacement.
Looks like an R-12/14 with the celestry of an R-1/9 type grafted on...maybe this car was partially met by the wrecker's torch and the roof had to be faked after the fact? Something doesn't look right. To me the car looks too narrow for a B-Division car, but the scale is hard to judge by the angle and w/o much else to use as a reference point.
Looks like an R-12/14 with the celestry of an R-1/9 type grafted on...
Can't be; '12s & '14s didn't have the railfan windowseat. Unless that's just a hole rotted through the sheetmetal? :)
It isn't an R car, it's plywood, a mockup, an insult to us all. :)
Excursion Trip to Reading, PA
Covers Trackage Not Used in Passenger Service since 1982, and Stops at
Stations Not Used in Twenty Years
On December 7, 2002, the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers
(DVARP) will run a holiday shopping excursion trip from 30th Street
Station in Philadelphia to VF Outlet Village in Reading, PA, using an
Amtrak consist. This train also will board passengers at the currently
inactive stations of Royersford and Pottstown. The Amtrak consist
departs 30th St. Station at 9:00 am., Royersford Station at 10:00 am.
and Pottstown Station at 10:15 am. returning in reverse order
approximately at 4:20 pm., 4:35 pm. and 5:35 pm. A nearly five-hour
layover will enable excursionists to shop for the holidays at the VF
Outlet Village and have lunch. Fare from Philadelphia: Adults $28, kids
under 16 $17. Fare from Royersford and Pottstown: Adults $19, kids
under 16 $12. Children under age five sharing seat with adult, free.
TO ORDER TICKETS: SSAE and check payable to DVARP to:
DVARP
1601 Walnut St., Suite 1129
Philadelphia, PA 19102
Make sure to specify which type of ticket you want.
For more info, please call (215) RAILWAY or by email mail@dvarp.org.
DVARP is running this excursion in large part to help build support for
rolling out commuter rail service on this line soon all the way to
Reading. People want this service now.
It's my understanding that Reading is the model for "Brewer", the home of Harold "Rabbit" Angstrom in the John Updike novels, decribed as an old ex railway town, with rusting, abandoned marshalling yards and deep, unused railway cuttings.
Can anyone confirm or deny this
Thanks in anticipation.
Here's to 98 years of service, and just 2 more years until a HUGE celebration!! Everyone take a moment of silence at 2:35 PM :-) -Nick
Yeah!! Way to go, IRT!
Also.....Sea Beach Freds 62nd....Subwaysurfs 47th...and someone elses 31st....sorry can't rememember.......oooh mOOO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, thanks Surf. You're an October 27 man too? Hell, then why were we at each other's throats way back when? If I had known that I would have gone easy on you, or is it the other way around? Anyway, have a great 47th birthday.
My 31st Birthday
Euclid A, then you must accept my congratulations on your 31st birthday. Anyone born on October 27 has got to be a good guy. However, I don't like the fact that I'm twice as old as you. It makes me feel like an old timer.
SB Fred: I'm 60 and still look like 48-52. Remember, if you still
look good , it's better than you feel good, to quote Billy Crystal.
Darlings, you look marvevouls...
Chuck Greene
They say I look younger than my age, too, and that is nice to hear. But I'm still 62 no matter how you slice it. The great consolation is that I feel good and exercise every day so I'm in decent shape as far as it goes. Good to know you take good care of yourself. BTW, as I told you in a post, your wife has been in my prayers and will continue to be. I can only ask you to try and stay strong though your
trial and I hope that you can make it through your sadness. Maybe I'll touch base with you on my next trip east. We can even ride the Culver.
Let me know when you come out this way, I'm only 2 hrs . away +/-.
Riding the Culver sounds like a great idea. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers for my wife. We have the memorial service tomorrow(she was creamated). I'll make it through this. I'm very strong.
Chuck Greene
Please share your beauty secrets with us :)
I use Nathan's franks to get that healthy glow :)
--Mark
Beauty? Hell, I'm just rugged looking. (HA). Mark, you look great for 40. Your hand shake was solid and it surprised me, and as for that sprint down to catch the train, well, I was impressed. The only secret I can give you is that after you reach 40 the brithdays seem to come faster and faster. BEWARE!!!!!!
What is the oldest museum car that is in working condition. Anything left from the original IRT fleet.
Better than that. Money car "G", originally car 41 (IRT elevated) up at Branford is the oldest rapid transit car in existence; it dates to 1878. From a strictly subway perspective, we have Belmont's private car, the Mineola, from 1904.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is the Money Car operational?
Sure is ... and she'll be out for the subtalk fest next year with Gate car 1227 according to the rumors. The pair runs NICELY. :)
Yes, she is... she's a control trailer - no motors of her own (never did), but she does have a control stand - so we pair her with 1227. Some on this board have had the pleasure of operating her... I haven't, but hopefully will have the chance this coming March when we bring her out for SubTalk Sunday, 03/30/03. (Start praying now for a nice dry day... she won't move from her barn if it's raining!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What *I* want to know is what happens to DOUGIE if you get HIM wet? Are there suddenly THOUSANDS of Lucianos menacing the streets? :)
You should do stand up comedy, you wild and crazy guy. And I thought I was a comedian. BTW, if you make Doug wet, does he qualify as a gremlin? He should be lurking around as one on Halloween.....LOL!
-Stef
Too tall ... and you're welcome! Yeah, we found out about spooks inhabiting YOUR car too. When it schpritzed, it broke out into MOOING and bingbonging ... you're gonna have to stop by Fordham and pick up a few Jesuits on the way to Branford, bro. :)
But at least 6688 didn't neener-neener.:)
Whoops. I forgot completely about that. Next year. :)
You've got to do one of your off-the-wall announcements and embellish it with a neener-neener.:)
NEXT year ... but I'll bet that Branford FAILS to provide me with a train containing PA, just like the TA ... you wait and see, they'll screw me JUST like Stillwell did. But if I get a train with a PA and assume the C/R postion, you can bet your BIPPY that there'll be a show you'll NEVER forget. moo. :)
Not as long as you don't chop him up into little pieces.:)
Something about The Sorcerer's Apprentice.:)
I'd NEVER do that ... however, I *might* feed him after midnight. :)
From a strictly subway perspective, we have Belmont's private car, the Mineola, from 1904.
Cool! I really have to get over there. I always wanted to go.
Well, in November we're only open Sundays, then from 30 November through 22 December we're back on a Saturday/Sunday schedule, and then we close until April. But remember the next edition of SubTalk Sunday on 03/30/03 when we bring out 1227 and "G" for the ride to Short Beach. Join the Museum ($30) and you can get some handle time.
Note: the Mineola is not accessible to the general public. Special arrangements must be made to see this car; none of my keys open that barn since I have no reason to be in there for operations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Everybody who tracked along with Jeff got some pretty nice pictures of the Minnie ... Harry's got some on HIS board (I encouraged him to set them off) and so did several other folks. I can understand why she's off limits, she needs a lot of work and the last thing you need is more people tracking through her before she gets some care. Look at what us subtalkers put Unca THURSTON through with extra work at mopping duty ... and Nancy and I had promised to help out in that respect prior to our visit, then because of dark-ness renegged on our duties. WE OWE YOU GUYS a clean car. But the Minnie as our punishment? Fuggedaboudit. :)
That car had a sorry history and was abused since Augie got tired of her. Gonna be a SHEETLOAD of work to restore that puppy ... and for those here who don't KNOW the legacy of the "Mineola" that was Auguste Belmont's (IRT, 100th birthday coming and nobody's given a DIME to the car's restoration) "private car" when he BUILT the IRT ... certainly THIS car is worth gussying up for the 100th birthday, no?
Make checks payable to:
The Shore Line Trolley Museum
17 River Street
East Haven, CT 06512
(203) 467-6927
I am *NOT* an authorized fund-raiser for the museum, which is WHY I typed this ... if the upcoming 100th anniversary of the IRT means ANYTHING to people here, then the Minnie should be restored and DISPLAYED on the IRT just as "Car G" was at the transit museum for the last few years.
It's going to cost a LOT to properly restore the Minnie, but perhaps a generous deep pocket out there can front the restoration and cover the costs of perhaps brining one of Branford's treasures to the city for the celebration. She's one NEAT railcar but financial limitations have screwed things up. And wait, there's also an ORIGINAL BiV at Branford also that needs some additional work to be presentable for the festivities.
A 100th birthday is not your common, run of the mill 98th ... Branford has the treats, show your appreciation in CASH ... and labor if you're good at turn of the last century restoration work.
Once again, my comments above were *NOT* authorized by BERA, and ya'll know I'm an IND miscreant. If you loved the IRT, then these two cars are MIGHTY special ... and DESERVE to be displayed on their home turf in 2004 ...
Kevin,
I'm flabbergasted by the unsolicited endorsement.
As for the Mineola, she needs a major sponsor [$$$$$$$],
don't want any misinformation spreading about.
All contributions are most graciously accepted.
Thanks again for your verbiage.
;-) Sparky
It's something I'd like to see happen greatly for 2004. If I had the money, Branford would have it NOW. Alas, I don't so about all I'm good for is some gum-flapping in hopes that maybe Bloomie or someone else whose pants are drooping from too much loose change might step forward. It'd be perfect for the IRT anniversary ...
I would like to see it happen also ... but most likely will not.
;-) Sparky
Ya never know, but at least we've put the proposition out there. I'll take it one more step. I'll stop bashing Microsoft if Bill Gates ponies up the cash. :)
Chance of that happening is between slim and none. Continue bashing Microsoft.
I had faith too, but given all the trouble I've given Billy and Boomboom Ballmer over the years, it's an offer that would have meant something to Billy. :)
It needs a lot to happen, but not everything.
A Jeff said in a previous part of this thread ... the car was stripped of everything under the floor line. Replacements for most of that gear has been acquired, so what's left:
- Lots of money
- A Cabinetmaker with the skills & time to do it right. Much like the job done to "Car G", it's such a unique piece that you have to do it right or not do it at all.
Shoreline has its share of one-of-a-kind cars: the Conn. Co. parlor car, the Mineola, and G. Then you have 865, which was built specifically for the Branford line.
ConnCo 500 (the private trolley car) & 865 are in pritty good shape.
The Tuesday "ConnCo Crew" is making magic on several of our yellow birds. As you saw in this month's Tripper we have an addition to the fleet. The only problem is, it's for the bubble gum & lolly pop set, i.e. it will be the new birthday party car :-( But the crew that restored her knew she was going to have to go back to work for the museum. Our friend Anon-E-Mouse will be the first to say, good let 629 have a rest she's been working very hard at that task for some time now.
Right. But we don't want to give 629 too long of a rest... she just needs some sprucing up and then she can go back to work for our regular passengers. After all, we don't want to turn TOTALLY yellow!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee I thought that's why we ran the cream & red car so much, she's jst the wrong shade of yellow < G >
Just got my first copy of The Tripper yesterday. Saw my name among the new members. I understand there won't be any more Autumn in New York events for a while.
WELCOME to Branford, bro! Check your lights on the "members only" section of bera.org ... the pix are in COLOR there and far better detailed than you'll see in newsprint. I'm guessing that NEXT month's issue will show how far over the edge us subfoamers went. :)
Didja get them prints digized yet? I'll show you ours if you show us yours. Neener-neener, nighty ... I go bed. Ooooom.
Maybe in the next two weeks, the "Tripper" will arrive in Brooklyn.
As the USPS says, where's Brooklyn???
But as Kevin says, go and read the Tripper On Line and compare with
the printed version. It's all part of becoming a member at BERA.
;-) Sparky
Don't feel bad, Sparky, it hasn't gotten to Pennsylvania yet, either.
Reading it online has taken the edge off of watching for the mailman.
Nor has it gotten to Suffolk County as of yesterday, but they could have saved my postage and left it in the crew room for me this Sat.
I got it Saturday as well as my membership renewal forms.
Mine came Monday :-(
Got mine in yesterday's mail. Also included renewal forms.
As a matter of fact ALL my mail yesterday was railfan related: a letter from Ed Davis (aka BIGEDIRTMANL), including a xeroxed article from the Daily News of Ed running the LAST train over the Mrytle Ave. El! (I'll make copies); the Tripper; and the lastest ERA bulletin and renewal forms.
The Tripper was mailed about Oct 24. Going 4th class, it
usually clears the regional bulk mail center in Hartford
pretty quickly, but then it's pot luck in terms of local
distribution. 112 and 114 areas are notorious for slow
4th class delivery
Can you believe that it is Nov 7th, and the Tripper has not arrived here yet?
Hasn't made it to Selkirk either ... but we DID get the re-up mailing at least. :)
Arrived in New Jersey on the 6th... the snails should get it to you soon :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arrived here in Florida yesterday, along with 2 bound volumes of Trolley Talk. Its nice to see this kind of stuff in the mailbox instead of bills!!!!
Steve Loitsch
And THANKS go out to Unca Jeff for making that digital version available. I take it our "Taking of 1689, 1-2-3-dump" will be in NEXT month's issue. :)
We'll make sure to mention that you roused it from its peaceful slumber.:)
That was all I was actually hoping for prior to coming ... waking her up, checking the doors (and they were sticky at first like I espected) and generally prepping her. But the BIG thrill for me was the precision yard moves on very tight curves, and taking her across the ladder and into the station. Normal "revenue" runs are a yawner, the precision moves are FUN. That's what I was in it for, as well as getting you your !@%$^& high note with Lou hanging on for dear life. That was a hoot also.
And if you remember when the lights dimmed on our first return trip, that was NANCY doing the SAME with 6688 while we were down the railroad. That's also why we hit the red ball on the way back as she was moving it back into the display track. Both of us got OUR yayas on yard moves and waking up a car each. Everything else was bonus.
We're BOTH extremely grateful that we were trusted to do the "risky" moves where any slip of attention would have put trains on the ground and would have screwed up the railroad all day. THAT was cool! :)
No problem Kevin, you moved the car on mostly mainline, you should see the track the leads back behind the other barns. Had 6688 back behind Barn 6 this weekend. Now that was a fun ladder to ride up to the barn and she didn't even dewire once!!
Yeah, took a peek behind there when I went to pay my respects to the standard, the SI car and that locomotive with the interesting roof job. :)
Next year, I wanna take 1689 around the loop and see how far we get. Heh.
So did Jeff and CI Peter get the bugs out of 6688?
Nope...On The Juice was working "out of title" all day...hint,
he _was_ wearing a BLUE hard hat!
Ah, so you put him to work already, eh?:)
Ok, enough of the BS, where the hell is that picture you promised me. I don;t like welchers. I've been waiting for you to send it. BTW, hear how Wilpon told fatass to get in shape, lose weight or he would send him packing. If only Wilpon had the balls to do it but the greedy bastard would never swallow a contract so we will probably have to see lard ass cavort around the gateway for another two dreary years.
I haven't gotten that roll of film developed yet. Trust me, I haven't forgotten.
Well, I guess we must have a second 'blue hat' since the last time I checked mine is in the trunk of my Dodge...:)
So is Peter 'track qualified' now? :)
Some guys have all the fun...
Dang! What am I missing?
-Stef
[... won't be any more Autumn in New York events for a while ...]
It's been very successful, but next year we will TRY something new ...
Elevated or Subway car operation once a month, intergrated into the operations day, e.g. one car added to operatations that makes a few trips, but is part of every tour via our Avenue L. Doesn't cost much to do but adds a lot to what the guests can touch & feel.
Most museums like ours are trying to come up with new ways to attract more visitors, e.g. our "Blind Trailner" elevated #197 will be "stuffed & mounted" with exhibits ... "railfan day" is another.
We have to try harder then the steam places.
Now I really wish I could be closer to the action.
At least I'm a member now.:)
Actually 775 was the car that was part of a 15-car order placed
by Consolidated Railway (ConnCo) in anticipation of taking over
the Branford and Wallingford lines. 865 came a year and a half
later and although it certainly ran on F-Branford/Stony Creek,
it wasn't really built with that line in mind.
Jeff, I'm getting totally confused on this subject. Did 775 actually spend much of her life on the Branford line, or did 865, or what?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Our track superintendent can give you the detailed history on
the cars. Cars of that class were the staple of the line
until around 1920, when the steel cars such as 1911 displaced them.
They were seen as rush hour trippers until the end. I don't know
if either were ever transferred to another division, but they both
wound up back in New Haven by 1947.
The "Guide Book" says she was a West Haven car. What I was told was that she came to the Branford line when West Haven was shut down.
Jeff adds some more detail ... and as he says MOW Bill probably knoiws the precise detail.
e.g. 775 & 771 (at The Point) are sisters, but 771 is actually part 779 ... Bill told me that, no one at The Point knew it.
Guys ... be GOOD to "Mr. Bill" (oh no!) ... he knows his stuff, even if he nods off into his dinner when you haul his butt into town. No regional jet is safe tonight ... heh. Wish the boy wasn't so whipped by the time we put all the toys away ... for the brief while Mr. Bill was lucid, he was spouting some WONDERFUL crew room dirt. :)
Gotta have that boy up HEAH. Ya'll come back now.
>>>"WONDERFUL crew room dirt. :)
Gotta have that boy up HEAH. Ya'll come back now."<<<
Most definitely youall could have an interesting chat. Just ask
him about his involvement with the filming of "Ironweed" in
smallAlbany. It was Branford's 1425 used in the film on real
rails and power, with William B. Young as the project coordinator.
Now there'e some Empire State Capitol Trivia for ya.
;-) Sparky
Oooh; good Halloween movie, too... off to Blockbuster!
Lackluster Video doesn't carry it. Had to buy it on e-Bay for 50¢ :).
It's a really lousy movie, even if it was shot in the streets of Trendy Lark Street in Smallbany. See it for the streetcar, record over it for the soaps. :)
Did you try Kim's?
Blockbuster's two miles away; Kim's is ten. I wasn't that desperate :).
Yep, I was out on "Trendy Lark Street" for that little doo-wah of United Traction Company, they closed off three blocks of it and did the whole cobblestone treatment ... the MOVIE sucked, had no idea that car was one of yours! Wowsers. Amazingly, the locals here were constantly remarking on what a GREAT job those studio carpenters did in making a PERFECT mockup of the real thing. Figures it'd take all these years for me to find out the truth. :)
When I visited Shoreline back in the mid-80s, they had 775 or 865 out running that day, and when we reached the end of the line, the operator mentioned that the car "has never left this line".
That was about #865. Page 19 of the Guide Book says "Car 865 (512) was built in 1905 for use on the Brnford line." That may not be totally correct. A revised guide book is in the works, mainly because we've used up the old stock.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if 865 ran elsewhere as well. Equipment gets shuffled around. There is a photo of R-16 6387 in New York City Subway Cars with a caption that it spent its entire career on the Jamaica line.
WRONG!!!
Wayne says he spotted 6387 once on the RR. Has it documented, too.
>>>"When I visited Shoreline back in the mid-80s, they had 775 or 865"<<<
Your visit had to be prior to 1985 and would have been 865, as 775
at the time was riding the rails as 193, since at least 1977 IIRC.
865 was not in service as of 1985, when I took the CLASS.
>>>"the operator mentioned that the car "has never left this line".<<<
Since all operators are volunteers, you may ride the line with any
number of times, with various motorpersons and not hear the same
"SPIEL" twice. The Branford Crew for the most are human, not
pre functioned robots as in many other similar ventures.
WE DONOT ECHO!!!
;-) Sparky
Seashore's 3352 has Shoreline's 3662 beat by a few years, although the two of them could operate together if they were ever reunited.
As long as Shrubs are welcomed in Kennebunkport, I think that town can do without my money. I'll settle (?) for whatever Branford's got, they've got what I'm into. Of course, I avoided New Haven like the plague for similar reasons. Birthplace, indeed.
Your post is intriguing. Branford does have a very nice supply of rapid transit cars. We have made suggestions to the NY Transit Museum regarding what they should do for the 100th birthday (Dave Pirmann even sent them a letter with our collective thoughts), but we never asked ... what special plans might Branford consider for the 100th birthday of the NY Subway?
--Mark
For those who haven't seen it, or are new here since we wrote the letter, I put a copy at:
http://pirmann.quuxuum.org/tmp/museumletter.pdf
Thanks for posting the link to that. My idea wasn't too far off in my previous post about having to include the City Hall station in the festivities. I had no idea that was sent.
Was there ever any response to that letter by the Transit Museum?
Yes, I did get a letter back. More or less a form letter but slightly more personal than that. I'll see if I can't find it and scan it in.
That would be great, Dave. Please post the link if you are able to scan it. :-) -Nick
In light of 9-11 some of the items may not be doable...
We have made suggestions to the NY Transit Museum regarding what they should do for the 100th birthday (Dave Pirmann even sent them a letter with our collective thoughts)
I don't know about Branford, but whatever the NY Transit Museum has planned has got to include the CIty Hall station. I was always hoping that City Hall would be restored for it's 100th birthday, and a few years back it looked like reality when the Transit Museum was going to open it for it's Manhattan annex. That hope has sort of faded though as we approach 2004.
Several of the local trolley/rt museums have been contacted by the Transit Museum. This was a while ago as part of a information gathering effort. I haven't asked what has or hasn't happened since.
Thanks for the info, I will try to keep 3/30 free.
... or at least INEXPENSIVE. :)
That's one of the TREATS of Branford - if folks are willing to get together and CHARTER a subway car, and are willing to JOIN the museum and contribute for the ride and the wear and tear on the car in addition from "amateurs" (pays for maintenence) then you get a shot at RUNNING the car if you're so inclined. ULTIMATE foamer experience for anyone who's ever thought they can run a subway car better than the guy or gal in the cab. Heh.
And folks who RUN the trains today for a living will find the earlier "technology" QUITE interesting. Yeah, ya run a subway train two trips a day plus penalty .... BOOOOO-RING ... Branford's collection will actually amuse people who never ran the oldies (and those of us who DID get our bigtime yayas in a way no steenking Hippo could satisfy as well once again after all these years) THAT is what makes the folks at Branford so over the top SPECIAL ... you can RUN a subway train under supervision just like your first day in schoolcar and then some.
And folks prohibited by TA policy (car inspectors, conductors, cleaners and management) can also! All for the piddly price of joining the museum and the charter fee for the car. After 30+ years away from the handles of the mighty Arnine, I'm STILL staining my pants. :)
I have some pictures of the Mineola here on my site.
-Larry
subway.com.ru
Wow, the Mineola was a beautiful car. Are they planning to restore it one day? Even the toilet was fancy! Actually, all the glass stained windows look to be in good shape. I can just picture that car running through the original Contract One stations. Thanks for posting that!
I can picture Mineola running through the LIRR connection at Atlantic Ave.:)
If it ever did. =)
>>>"Wow, the Mineola was a beautiful car. Are they planning to restore it one day?"<<<
The Mineola is a treasured piece of Transit History and enough
of her remain, but it is not a quickie in house restoration.
She has to be treated like a piece of art, which she is, much
beyond the capabilites of our volunteer work force.
She needs a major sponsor [$$$$$$$] to bring her back to life.
;-) Sparky
She has to be treated like a piece of art, which she is, much
beyond the capabilites of our volunteer work force.
She needs a major sponsor [$$$$$$$] to bring her back to life.
Yeah, even though it looks beautiful, the photos do show that a lot of work is needed. How long have they had it? Where was she before they brought it up there?
>>>"How long have they had it? Where was she before they brought it up there?"<<<
Don't have all the answers. All I know is that it was acquired from
a farm, where it was being used as a playpen. Not sure of the year.
Maybe someone more familiar with its history will chime in.
;-) Sparky
If my memory serves (Jeff feel free to correct me here) the Minnie was saved by the scrapping company for use as a den for a relative of the companies owner. Sometime after it was acquired by the Magee Transportation Museum in Bloomsburg, PA. This museum was devistated by flodding from Hurrican Agnes(I think) in 1972 and shortly after in '72 was when the Mineola arrived. Trucks that were "close to correct" for the car were acquired in the mid seventies. That is about all I know about the car, hope this helps.
Steve Loitsch
Yes, Hurricane Agnes devastated the Magee Museum. I was in Kingston, Pennsylvania (helping paint Uncle Ralph's house) when Agnes came through... sandbagged at the Forty Fort Cemetary until the levee was breached and we had to literally run for our lives... evacuated to Avoca airport, managed to talk my way out and around lots of barricades and got back to my grandparents' place in Bloomsburg... water covered the Lackawanna yard below their house but they were about five feet above the water. Once the water had gone down enough we were able to cross the Susquehanna to Mainville (where they had a small farm) and truck fresh water back to Bloom. The Magee Museum was down on Fishing Creek in one of the lowest parts of town, and the creek rose higher than the river did. The Magees were like family to everyone in Bloomsburg... took it very personally. Pop (my grandfather) supplied fresh pheasant to their hotel for many years and my mother was especially close to Mrs. Harry Magee Sr. They were good people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When you travail I-80 West and approach mile marker 14, look to your left at the tower. Halfway up the mountain, flood free. CI Peter
I remember Agnes, too. It prompted the Daily News to refer to 1972 as a "leak year".
That's basically correct. 3344 became available after nearly
floating away at Magee and was brought up to Branford and housed
almost immediately. We basically have acquired over the years
everything we need under the floor. The big problem is the body.
>>>"Maybe someone more familiar with its history will chime in."<<<
Thanks to all for the chime ins. As we teach in "Training 1.01",
if we cannot answer your question, we will someone who will and
correctly. That's what great about the Branford Fraternity.
;-) Sparky
Heh, when you have young kids, they go by even faster!
Stay young (looking :)
--Mark
>>Anyone born on October 27 has got to be a good guy. However<<
Also Happy Birthday Teddy Roosevelt !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hell, what about me Nick. Spread the word, #4 Sea Beach Fred turns 62 years young today. 62? Good God, where have all those years gone. It seems like only yesterday.............
...that I rode on the subway for the first time.:)
Happy belated birthday Fred, and to all who added another year to their life! -Nick
Isn't it kind of odd that the day before, one of the movie channels just ran "The Taking Of Pelham 1-2-3"?
Wow...98 years.
I wonder whether August Belmont & Co., when they were planning, financing and building the original, ever thought that their work, nearly intact, would still be in heavy daily use nearly 100 years later and would still play a vital role in the City's health?
We need more August Belmonts and his staff today.
I wasn't on the subway at all yesterday, but today is an all-IRT comute for me, Queens to Manhattan via the Corona/Flushing and Lexington IRTs.
:-) Andrew
Happy Birthday, Sr. Andee & Sr. Fred!!
...and to the IRT at whom I barked up a loud & resounding
"Happy Birthday!!" whilst driving across the
Broadway Bridge (225) on Sunday (2:35pm precisely)..
.. needless to say, I got a car-full of eerie stares
from the in-laws riding in my vehicle~~ whom were at loss
for comprehension as to why I was shouting festively at
the steel structure....
Just finished watching that movie about an hour ago. I hadn't seen it in six years but I still find it entertaining. It seems New York has come full circle since 1974. They were telling everyone in the movie that the city was broke and could be hard pressed to pay the ramsom of One Million Smackers. Now I'm told New York is in a similar financial fix. Still I think the city is in much bettershape today then back them. I came to New York for the first time in 20 years in '74 and couldn't believe just how screwed up the place was. I haven't had that impression that last five or six times I've visited the place.
I just watched it, too. I kept thinking, however: aren't there some curves in the tunnels that would have derailed the train before South Ferry? I could see the train getting by the curves at 14th Street--after all, the train was picking up speed at that point--but what about the curves between Brooklyn Bridge and Fulton Street??
Dramatic license was taken at a couple of points -- Union Square, the curve onto Broadway at Vescey-Ann streets, the curve off of the Journalmon St. tube track and onto the South Ferry loop, the loop itself and the track switch that would have been necessary to get the local onto the express tracks before Brooklyn (as the Union Square derailment showed, a train going as fast as that was supposed to be going never would have made the switch without hitting the girders). But given that few movies get much of anything right about the subways, and "Pelham 1-2-3" had so much more background detail than your usual "chase-em down (or up) into the subway" flick, most people are willing to cut the end scene some slack.
I remember watching "The French Connection" in 1971. I saw and recognized the West End Line from years back but I was dumbfounded when I saw a train carrying the letter "N". What the hell is that, I wondered. The West End didn't carry anything that I remembered since it used the "B" type trains. Imagine my surprise when I found out three years later on my first trip back to New York in 10 years that not only was the "N" not the train used on the West End but that was the symbol of my beloved Sea Beach of my kiddie days.
I read somewhere that the director insisted on having a clean train,
and of course it was wintertime. The only cars available were used and did not have a "B" sign. This is why the "N" sign was shown, that's all they had,
Chuck Greene
That's correct. R-42s 4572-4573 normally ran on the N line back then and did not have B signs. The N is visible in two scenes, and then very briefly. The funny thing is, in one of those scenes, the N is seen on the north motor and on the other, where the train blows by 25th Ave., it's the south motor.
Hmmm, I didn't know that the signs in the R-42s were so "specialized" back then, I always assumed that all cars carried signs for all exisiting B division routes as they most likely do now. Live and learn.
Now you see why I remember there being SOME Arnines with Brighton Beach on them. You couldn't have everything on the planet on the rollsigns or they wouldn't turn or worse, you'd spend a whole shift just changing the route. :)
I'm willing to bet they cannibalized the Brighton Beach signs from discarded R-32 curtains and grafted them into the R-1/9 curtains. I never saw an oldtimer with a Brighton Beach sign, but then the only time I ever rode on a prewar D train on a weekday was just before the Chrystie St. connection opened - Nov. 24, 1967, to be exact.
There WERE some ... not many though. If you had it, you rolled it down. If you didn't, then you'd roll it out to the white patch at the end. Of course, non-rush, the D went to Coney and that one was always there. Some WISENHEIMER put up Kings Highway on 1689. Have shoe paddle, am laying in wait to get that perp. :)
That crank handle on the Kings Highway sign was STIFF!! I tried to set it to Coney Island, but the mechanism flopped around so much I gave up. Then later on I set the signs on the other end to A - Wash. Hts 207th St. and both were easy to crank.
I'd still like to know who painted over "Coney Island" on that destination curtain I picked up at Cityana Gallery. Thanks to Charles Fiori I have a curtain with Coney Island intact along with a pristine Wash. Hts 207th St.
Heh. Well, let that be a lesson to any rollsign crank yankers as to WHY sometimes, the bulkhead had the wrong destination. You crank it and give it your best, if it don't wanna, ain't gonna gum up the railroad trying. Strangely, had no trouble setting it for 205th Concourse originally. Some Arnines knew where home was and could get there on their own. :)
Two weeks ago I saw a s/b Redbird 5 whose front destination sign said Dyre Ave.
Those R40/42 bulkhead signs were HUGE, too huge for all tobe included on one roll. IIRC, there were 4 "sets" of rollsigns fitted to these cars.
You don't think that whole chase scene was filmed continously? Or in a single day? LOL.
I know for a fact it was done over many days, like most films are. As it was stated before, some of the filming was done on the "M" line
in Ridgewood.
Chuck Greene
Back in 1994 on William St between Wall St and Nassau St, it took something like 5-6 weekends to film a 10 minute segment for Die Hard III.
When they were filming "Malcolm X" at Myrtle-Wyckoff, it took an entire weekend to film about 5 minutes worth of movie at the beginning. (that doesn't include the week before when they were prepping the area to look like the 1930's). That weekend, the M ran shuttle between Metro and Seneca (using only the Metro bound track), and between Seneca and Myrtle-Broadway (using only the Manhattan Bound track), with both sections meeting at Seneca. They did this because they had an old train "Boston Elevated Railway" (pulled by an SBK engine) using the Metro Bound track at Wyckoff, going back and forth for each shoot (all weekend long). I took photos of it.
It was also true for when they filmed "Brigthton Beach Memoiors" at Seneca Ave. It took them two full weeks to film what amounted to a few scenes in the movie. They did an unbelievable job at making the area look like the 1930's including the, at the time graffiti-strewn station at Seneca. It was a pretty good movie. It has great shots of Seneca station. It was a movie about a poor Jewish family struggling in the 30's in Brighton Beach. The M ran normal, but the station was all cleaned up by the movie company, and graffitied M trains would pass through between shoots. In the movie you could actually hear the sounds of the R27's.
The chase sequence took something like 12 filming sessions over a two-month period between January and March of 1971.
One gaffe was the train of R-32s directly above Gene Hackman when that car smashed into him at Stillwell and 86th. They went through more than one LeMans, too.
Steve, you talking about The French Connection? The DVD has a "making of" documentary that talks about (and shows) the filming of the chase scene. That was not a stunt driver! The documentary was fun to watch and informative, too.
Not only was the driver not a stunt driver, but the streets under the B line were never closed for filming. They simply did it early in the morning before too many people were on the street!
The only stunt was the woman with the baby carriage.
Hackman did his own driving throughout the chase sequence.
I remember watching "The French Connection" in 1971. I saw and recognized the West End Line from years back but I was dumbfounded when I saw a train carrying the letter "N".
In addition, some of the scenes in French Connection were filmed under the M train el between Seneca and Forest Avenues. In a scene a car crashes into a bunch of garages. It is clearly on Onderdonk Ave under the M el. You can even see the towers of Saint Alyoicious (spelling?) Church in the backround.
You're right. I recognized Onderdonk. And if you look closely, you'll see Popeye chasing an M train n/b between Fresh Pond and Forest in that same seen.
I remember watching "The French Connection" in 1971. I saw and recognized the West End Line from years back but I was dumbfounded when I saw a train carrying the letter "N". What the hell is that, I wondered. The West End didn't carry anything that I remembered since it used the "B" type trains. Imagine my surprise when I found out three years later on my first trip back to New York in 20 years that not only was the "N" not the train used on the West End but that was the symbol of my beloved Sea Beach of my kiddie days.
Another dramatic license: If the train hijacked was indeed the "Pelham 1:23", it would have been the train leaving PBP at 1:23 in the morning. Since the movie implies a PM timeframe, the train in question should have been given the call sign "Pelham 13:23". Right?
Not so sure about that. I don't think they differentiated between AM and PM in that case. Since a train got a new call sign for each trip, I would think it would be pretty obvious by the time of day whether it was AM or PM. I could be wrong, though.
I don't think TA was using military time in 1971.
Honestly I have worked basebal specials who traveling north have hit those same curves at a very high rate of speed.The faster we get back the faster we go home.1 paticular time T/O didnt slow down for curve at Fulton Back then as SubBUs cann attest most Baseball specials were redbirds,we must of been doing good 25+ around that curve I thought we would definately go on the floor but stayed on the road.I can honestly admit to blowing by Union square at 20 mph but every other station after that was taken at 15mph. HAH !!!!!!!!
The good old days WHERE T/O'S werent SCARED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know what puzzles me about that movie?
Caz Dolowicz. Why did they give a Polish name to a guy who basically is supposed to be Italian? He speaks with a heavy Brooklyn-Italian(Brooklynese) accent, and even uses Italian expressions, such as "fa nabola".
Well Luch, some of us Dago guys were real momma's boys and he probablly took after his Mom who probably was Italian. That's as far as my thinking goes on this.
Caz Dolowicz was also in the novel. Rico Patrone OTOH was created for the film. Garber in the movie was Clive Prescott in the novel while Patrone in the movie was actually Garber in the novel.
You know what puzzles me about that movie?
Caz Dolowicz. Why did they give a Polish name to a guy who basically is supposed to be Italian? He speaks with a heavy Brooklyn-Italian(Brooklynese) accent, and even uses Italian expressions, such as "fa nabola".
I read French Connection and the only subway scene that I read about was the Grand Central Shuttle on and off sequence or scene. One of the characters lived on 62nd street in Brooklyn. A map is even in the front of the book. The characters used cars except for the foreign (French) visitors who brought Heroin in. The Heroin was even hidden in an auto.
Re "The French Connection" book: I finally read it earlier this year after seeing the movie dozens of times. Disappointed! It played like actual police work: months of numbing surveillance, and one escape after another of the guys they were supposed to be watching. The DVD's supplemental disc is better, with its documentary by Sonny Grosso (partner of Eddie "Popeye" Egan, portrayed as "Cloudy" in the movie).
Quick quiz: What did the moniker "Popeye" REALLY signify? A hint: it had nothing to do with Elzie Segar...
You know, I've been meaning to buy that book for quite some time.
Parts of the French Connection take place in Ridgewood, where the character Sal owns a luncheonette on Wycoff Ave. Since I'm also a bit of a mafia buff, I'd like to read that book since Joe Bonanno supposedly master-minded the whole operation.
Is the book good?
I read the book as well as viewed the motion picture. I really got a kick out of the character of the mayor. No name was used but it reminded me of how I always thought of John Lindsay. I thought Lindsay was a pitiful character in the true history of New York. I guess since he is deceased, I should go easy on him, so I will leave it at that. An accurate memore in PB-1-2-3.
A first name, Al, is used in the film. At least they didn't go so far as the producers of the Batman TV series did when it was Mayor Linseed and Governor Stonefellow.
What was also strange is that all the signals were green from 23rd(?) to South Ferry. With the train going faster and faster, they should have tripped a timer somewhere, especially near the Loop. I'm NOT a T/O but I guess there would be approach or stop signals near the Loop to prevent a runaway from going into the loop at high speed.
Michael
Washington, DC
Ryder aka Mr. Blue specifically demanded that the local track be cleared from 28th St. all the way to South Ferry; i. e., all switches properly set and all signals green. Hw threatened to kill another hostage if he so much as saw a red signal, let alone got tripped by one. Now in the novel, Ryder also demanded that all other trains on other tracks along the route lay dead, but this was omitted in the movie. You can see a train passing Astor Place in the opposite direction as Pelham 1-2-3 goes by that station.
I know what was said it in the movie. I'm comparing it to actual operation.
Michael
Washington, DC
Can you ge this fantastic movie on DVD?
Not out here yet. My wife combed the stores and came up empty. Funny you should bring that up because I've been trying to get Audie Murphy's movie "To Hell and Back" and haven't much success at that either. I'll keep trying but everytime I go into one of those places and ask for it they look like me like I'm a wierdo or something. Do they know something I don't know?
Yes, it is available on DVD. Fittingly enough, it was the first DVD movie I bought and it was also the first VHS movie I bought 15 years ago.
Are there any special features on the DVD, like a "making of" documentaries, etc.?
There are no special features other than the original theater trailer.
Yes, only $9.99 with free shipping from Buy.com
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=40132585&loc=322&queryType=video_dvd
Now no offense to some of the great T/O's I have worked with who post on this board since my demotion. But there is a serious problem of guys who wont go over 20 MPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Today on the R with 12 minute headways "12 minutes" I catch my leader at PRINCE STREET!!!!!!!!!!!!Just to find out its my Friday T/O who is so slow we cal him Mr.Skip.So Mr Skip ( who has over 15 years as a T/O) decided to plug the road .AT the terminal a fist fight broke out I wont say with who because it was a big melee ,Needless to say anyone waiting for an R train tonight had seriuos waits due to the fact 6 c/r's and 4/T/O' were pulled OOS.The GENERAL SUPT. had to respond the R train was on a 20 minute interval from 8 pm onward . I was not involved but was onhand for the fistacuffs which was sight to be seen in the Dispatchers office at 71st Continental.Needless to say us fellow employees just lost 10 of our own due to plain stupidity,and all 10 were not male .
I need you to email me abot someithng else work related.
As usual, I'd LOVE to hear this story in email, and you guys KNOW I don't blab. Never did a number like this in MY day. Speaks volumes to the "work environment" these days if this kinda stuff is "usual" ... but I suspect not. Wowsers. Well, off to sleep, been a fun night. Not.
I actually do want to talk to him about someithng else.
2 classmates works there at that time so that will be my source.
I have seen fights before but this close to contract time, in a high profile station and with tons of extra TO's floating around it is a bad time to get caught doing anything wrong.
Uh ... yeah. It's a bad time ANY TIME ... and yeah, I figured you were onto something else, I can read fer krimminy's sake, heh - I figured since Specialist would have read YOUR post, I wanted to tie down on it so that if he WANTS to email, I'd offer an invite to do so since it sounds like one of those things that'd buzz a crew room for weeks and well, frankly, got my annual handle time at Branford and was a bit bored. Only reason I hang out here on Subtalk is for the STORIES, I could give a kwap about what the lineups for the N are today. :)
But yeah, definitely not a good thing to do - Erection day is just a wee bit more than a week away, then the politicos go into hiding for two months to count their warbucks, then come January the jeweler's rouge comes out for that good rimjob those of us who ELECTED the bastards deserve for doing so AGAIN. :(
Don't mind me though, I'm into all this STRICTLY for the STORIES. When you pull handles for a living and get to "renew" the handle pulls on REAL trains often enough to put that puppy to sleep, it's the chatter that makes it all worthwhile having sone same ... and as an old journalist "press pass in the fedora" type goes, there's a story here and I'd LOVE to hear it, one way or another.
Ok I will send you two messed up stories now.
Thank ya! Pity I've been up all night, I'm stupid enough tired to pull the handle out in the middle of a relay. Don't be surprised if I sit on it until I've had 12 hours ... I just whacked a 143 into the wall at Eighth Avenue (14 St) in da train sim. BEDTIME! :)
Do you feel better now that you instigated another BLIND T/O incident here for all to see, accused a T/O on another train of plugging the road and calling him names, and now will perhaps inhibit the due process of anyone who MAY be innocent by posting this crap here? I can clearly see why you were demoted.
In fairness to the situation, I'd like to HOPE that when someone gasses off here about the railroad being screwed up that stories of the realities can be kept to that which could be accepted as humorous without getting specific PEOPLE in trouble ... as in THIS for just one example ... last thing we'd want is getting specific folks in trouble, but I *do* love war stories with a passion ...
Old as the hills, you've probably already heard it ... NEW variations on this is what I live for, but then I ain't well. :)
Passengers on a plane are waiting for the flight to leave. The entrance opens, and two men walk up the aisle, dressed in pilot uniforms. Both
are wearing dark glasses. One is using a seeing-eye dog, and the other is tapping his way up the aisle with a cane.
Nervous laughter spreads through the cabin, but the men enter the cockpit, the door closes, and the engines start.
The passengers begin glancing nervously, searching for some sign that this is just a little practical joke. None is forthcoming. The plane moves faster and faster down the runway, and people at the windows realize that
they're headed straight for the water at the edge of the airport.
As it begins to look as though the plane will never take off, that it will plow into the water, screams of panic fill the cabin. But at that moment, the plane lifts smoothly into the air.
Up in the cockpit, the co-pilot turns to the pilot and says, "You know, Bob, one of these days, they're going to scream too late, and we're all gonna die."
NEW variations on this is what I live for, but then I ain't well
I posted this a while ago, but perhaps it will provide some needed humor here as well. This happened long enough ago that nobody is going to figure out which PATH crew it was... As background, in case you don't know, PATH engineers can wear pretty much whatever they want - they're not stuck in a uniform.
I was seeing this friend who lived at 34th St. in Manhattan and would take the PATH train home from her place at various late night (midnight to 3 AM, mostly) times. I had been taking the PATH from 33rd, but the whole round robin service, combined with the spaced-out people who would get on the train at 9th and Christopher was more of a pain than I cared for, so I decided to take the subway down to the WTC and then take the PATH from there, avoiding both the stop in Hoboken and the club crowd.
About the 4th night in a row I did this, there was a train sitting at the platform (the crew was on break time). I boarded the train in the lead car, which already had a good assortment of passengers. As it comes up on time for us to leave, a guy gets on the train and says "does this go to Hoboken"? He gets the usual assortment of "no", "change at Grove St.", and "Idunno" answers. He becomes more and more agitated, insisting that this train did indeed go to Hoboken. Finally, he enters the cab, buzzes the conductor, and the conductor closes up with no announcement. At this point, the passengers are wondering WTF is going on (and, probably, where they will wind up). As we are pulling out of the WTC terminal, the conductor announces "This is an A train to Far Rockaway".
After that, I decided to go back to taking my chances with the weirdness on the midtown service, which seemed to be confined to the passengers, thankfully 8-)
Heh. Thanks for that! :)
It's a pity that you're not allowed to have fun on the railroad anymore.
That's a great story.
I enjoyed it also. Imagine the befuddlement when it was announced
it was a New York subway going to Far Rockway! Oh my goodness!!
Chuck Greene
I liked one of David Letterman's Top Ten lists a few years back which had to do with knowing when you've got a wacko pilot. You'd hear stuff like:
"Gee, what does this gizmo do?"
"Wheeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!"
And my favorite, "Screw Chicago! Let's go find the Mars Observer!"
Heh. Even worse when you had a whackjob like me as a conductor. "Ladies and gentlemen, this is a southbound D express to Brighton Beach, we'll reach a cruising altitude of minus twenty feet and the weather conditions at your destination are partly cloudy, 66 degrees. Please be sure to take your personal belongings with you when you detrain and please return your seat to the fully upright position."
TA had no sense of humor. :(
Did you ever say something like, "This is a Bronx-bound D express to 205th St. 125th St. will be the next stop. Estimated travel time will be 5 minutes. Watch the doors and enjoy the dash." at 59th St.?
I heard once about a C/R who made an announcement at 205 St something like:
"Brooklyn bound "D" train. Next stop Stillwell Ave." People were getting nervous. As the train neared Bedford Park, te C/R came back on and said: "APRIL FOOLS!"
If that was late autumn 1970, I think I know who I was. :)
Uh-oh, the skunk's out of the bag now.:) We have a witness!
Nah, my bet was that it happened around April - I was up front then. :)
"This is Canal street, transfer to the 6 and J,M trains on the upper level. Watch out for the dragon clips!"
Never did say "enjoy the dash," but DID warn the geese to fasten their seatbelts. :)
That's good enough.:)
"now will perhaps inhibit the due process of anyone who MAY be innocent"
Do you really think that NYCT would bring disciplinary proceedings for violating work rules against a T/O only identified as "Mr. Skip" because of a bulletin board posting by another T/O?
If they have other reasons for bringing charges against a T/O do you think this posting could possibly affect a disciplinary hearing?
I think you strongly overestimate the power of SubTalk, even if some supervisors do monitor this board.
The answer here is *YES* ... there is NOTHING as petty as civil servants with supervisory titles. There are MANY in the system whose entire JOY is pulling the wings off flies and doing the detective work to figure out WHO to "get" ... no joke - there's people who WATCH this board and others to get their yayas.
Civil Service pays SHITE ... so what you get is power and control freaks with nothing better to do. BELIEVE me, my NON-transit, politically based comments are ALSO read by those with the ability to change things - Watch the "putsch" against Bruno now that downstate Republicans have had MORE than their fill of my BRUNO posts and the negative energy my postings of reality have caused. The boy is DONE, even if he's unopposed for election ...
But for the poor schlumps that do their "people's duties" Subtalk is BIG stuff among management. EVERY complaint that appears here is examined to some degree or other by the adminisigs ... TA even has people here to "rectify incorrect information." Politicians are CHICKENSHEETS and send their minions to provide absolution in the public eye. Geez.
But that's WHY folks in the know are paranoid ... and YES, it matters. Like I said, adminiswigs TREMBLE at "bad press" even if it's HERE. :(
Things said here have gotten people in trouble in the past, that is why there is much more offline traffic and stories you guys no longer see here.
BTW the 'Blind TO' did not do half the stuff she has been accused of AND much of the other stuff has been grossly taken out of proportion.
She has had problems but EVERY female TO that has screwed up has managed to put it on this one person.
And I personally know three of the women that that got their errors blamed on the blind TO in the crew room court.
I think it just goes to illustrate the frustration the train crews have over the tight schedules with little or no recovery time between trips, especiallly when there are extended headways due to General Orders. Compound that with following a late train and having to hear "that's you to go" from the T/D as soon as you arrive from a 1hr. 30 min. trip and you can understand why there are some short tempers. IT DOES NOT MAKE THIS BEHAVIOR RIGHT, it just illustrates the frustrations of the train crews.
And they're flipping JUSTIFIED ... it's one thing when YOU screw up the railroad, quite another thing when someone ELSE screws it up and you're screwed out of lunch, potty break, you name it. And of course if the train ahead of YOU is late, SO ARE YOU. YOUR FAULT. All in the numbers, and your numbers bite. 'nuff said. :(
True. I'm sure you've done it before, as have I. You catch your leader on the n/b D at Prsopect Park and have to follow him all the way up to 205th only to have your 35 minute lunch break cut to 15 minutes. Paying me 30 minutes for the no lunch does not cut it. I need time to get my head together, even if it means just going up to the street for some fresh air & a cup of coffee. You bitch & moan and get back on your train for another 90 minute trip. Have it happen a few times in a week and your ready to explode. Much as you'd like to you just can't have a go at it with another employee. I'm only saying I can see where the frustration sets in.
I guess that's the advantage of driving a bus. If your leader is late you just go in front of him because it's physically possible. With a train, you're stuck behind the leader.
The TA needs to do a better job weeding out these slow T/O's and re-training them.
That's one good thing about the 7, they make sure their T/O's don't "creep" their trains.
You can't pass your leader on a bus route. Of course, if you are on Madison Avenue for example, an M1 can pass an M2 but the M1 driver can not pass the M1 in front of him. Of course, if it is a limited M1 and he wants to pass a local M1, then he can.
Well on LI Bus they pass their leaders, even though usually schedules down allow such close headways. For instance, the 3:47pm N20 to Hicksville always usually passes the 3:29pm N20 Hicksville. That's why I always take the 3:47pm, plus, it's usually emptier.
For some reason, this happens whenever they stick an L10G bus on the 3:29pm, they are slower, so if it's a 300 behind it, it usually passes the packed 3:29 N20 around Manhasset.
Also I've seen it in NYCT as well, whenever I ride the S79 to 86th and get an RTS, the Orion usually passes us just after New Dorp.
I guess maybe they should only run the slow buses on low priority routes.
>>> You can't pass your leader on a bus route <<<
Is that a rule in New York? I see it happening all the time here in Southern California. Particularly on routes with short headways and a bus stopped while using a wheelchair lift. Other times I have seen buses leapfrogging each other when the following bus has no passengers wanting to get off at a stop where his leader is boarding passengers.
Tom
I think a bus can pass its leader if the leader is running behind schedule. But not if its running ahead of schedule.
Sometimes I'll see 2 buses leapfrogging along a route so that they can share the customer load. Sometimes the 1st bus will pick up a crowd and the 2nd will leap ahead so that they will get the crown instead of the 1st.
I think they have to fill out this form if they are still ahead at a relief place or the end of the line that explains why.
Look there is nothing that can be done to a slow T/O. However you can weed out fast T/O's.
The # 7 Line mgt want there trains to run on time because its a heavly used line and trains are on top of each other. Its a very strict line to work. I only worked on the # 7 Line when I was new and I was always a careful C/R on that line because the TSS are strict you do anything out of the way they write you up and the riders call up on C/R's if they should get hit with the doors. I was so careful I was always skiped. It was like clock work So and so Times SQ after Woodside make you next stop 74 St , Junction then Willis there are 3 trains directly behind you. Ofcause spend 3 Minutes at Woodside explaining why the train is being skipped because you know every #7 rider has to give the C/R a piece of thier minds. So sit and sit then finally get the doors closed and move out. It really doesn't look good coming into Main Street with 3 empty pockets then the train gets skipped leaving Main St.
Only spent 3 days on the #7 and never seen it again.
Yepper ... what I learned out of it all is that the CURE for excessive foaming is working for the TA a little while. Heh. But yeah, so much screwage, so little time. What REALLY got _me_ though was that I *lived* at 205th and had to report to Stillwell. Add that on top of everything else and I was a mighty unhappy camper. Still, the shoe paddle REMAINED in its clip or under my door and was never used in anger on my brothers or sisters. The GEESE of course, another story. :)
I think we all can relate to being behind Slow train crews or working with a slow partner.
The thing is what would cause 10 fellow cowarkers to get into a fight and maybe loss their jobs over it. If I don't like what is being said in the crewroom I just walk out.
Daaaaaaaaaaamn, man!! Now everyone sees why I don't ever want to have anything, and I do mean ANYTHING, to do with the Queens Division!! Too screwy for me!! Now as a result of obvious stupidity, 10 fellow employees might now possibly be terminated, since NYCT's policy on violence in the workplace has disciplinary measures up to and including termination, not to mention whomever involved can face assault charges if anyone presses. As curious as I am, I really don't think I want to know what it was all about, because I bet it was something completely stupid!!
Ok, everyone I am curious. I don't want to know who was involved, but to whomever knows the details as to what happened, please email me, because I would like to know what kind of stupidness would cause a melee of this magnitude to break out in a big terminal like Continental Avenue. People really need to chill out!! People take things too personally.
WOW.....wild TA wimmens.....I'm in the wrong department. CI Peter
Not to worry, bro ... it'll be on pay per view. :)
Wow! Wish I was there...
A little birdie* told me that today is Andee (SUBWAYSURF) and Sea Beach Fred's birthday....as well as BIG DAY of the Interborough Rapid Transit system.
Congratulations to all!
Doug
P.S. -- now that you're a year older -- do you feel a year wiser?? ;)
*Redbirdie
Somehow, I have my doubts about the IRT there ... but as for 'surf, Fred, and the other lunatic Scorpios checking their pants to today if they're still there, a mighty MOO! from the outskirts of Selkirk Classification Yard ... now put that BACK in your pants before you hurt somebody, watch the closing drawers ... boing bing ...
My God Selkirk, you read my mind. I'm going to have to keep an eye on you because you're not normal.
I actually have PAPERS to prove I ain't normal. :)
NEXT time, you've gotta make it out to Branford. Kibbitzing with a motorperson is fun and all, but once you've RUN a subway train yourself, you become certifiable. Moo.
God willing Selkirk, I will be at Branford next fall. I only wish they had a Triplex. You have no idea of how badly I would like to have motorized one. When we went on that fan trip down the Sea Beach Express tracks last Memorial Day I told Mark Feinmann that I was tempted to break into the cabin and commandere the train.
No triplexes, *BUT* ... they have 1227, a genuine BRT GATE CAR and word is, that's what's going out next year. It's BETTER than a Triplex and with our own "Lucky Luciano" (a/k/a/ BMTman) piloting, it'll be better than a Triplex. And with its screwy controls, you'll get to see why I think the R cars are a lot saner. :)
I don't think ANYBODY other than the TA museum has any of them, and the amount of time you'd need in on the job to work C division just wouldn't be worth the mountain of crap you'd have to climb. You'll STILL get yer yayas though.
Dougie was doing his best impression of Lucky Luciano during his handle time on 1689.:)
Nah, we didn't tip nor did we make toothpicks. NEXT YEAR. :)
Hey Doug, I can't speak for Andee but you met me and should know that as a kid at heart I cannot take any credit for being any wiser either today or next year or the year after that. But hell, being a kid is what makes being on Subtalk all the more fun. We got some real wierd looks when we railfanned two weeks ago but who cared? We were living as youngsters again. Anyway, thanks for the greeting and have a great week.
Fred: Best Wishes on your birthday. May you have many more.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Happy birthday #4 Sea Beach Fred. I hope that you had an enjoyable day on your birthday yesterday. I hope that someday you'll be able to run a BMT Triplex.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't Forget About Me Euclid Avenue A Train On this Day.
Year 31 For Me.
October 27, 1971
What happens to the train intervals and call signs when the hour repeats going back to standard time?
There would be two 0130 Fox 179 trains on the road at the same time, based on 20 minute departure intervals...
Does one become an 0129 Fox ?
Doesn't the 2:00 hour repeat itself, not the 1:00? I believe it goes from 2:59 back to 2:00, though I could be wrong.
Yes, the 2:ooam hour repeat itself. On the L the 1:55am out of Braodway Junction got back to the Juction at 1:53am bast on the round trip times. I was told that there were three trains add on the do to the change of time.
Robert
Truly the Twilight Zone of railroading...
That is why you never schedule a train to leave a midnight, always 12.01 or 0001 so you know what day it is >G<.
This one of the best times to be RX. You make your one trip one the L and that is it (even sweeter with that GO running).
The 1:00 hour repeats. At 1:59:59 Daylight Saving Time, it becomes
1:00:00 Standard Time.
In the spring at 12:59:59 Standard Time it becomes 2:00:00 Daylight
Saving Time.
Remember: The "daylight" is neither plural, nor possessive -- LEAVE
OFF THE LAST 'S' -- IT'S SAVING.
"In the spring at 12:59:59 Standard Time it becomes 2:00:00 Daylight
Saving Time."
Are you sure? I thught the clock jumped from 2:00 to 3:00.
Yes, you're right on that; my typo 2:00 am is the magic hour where the clock shift shifts.
And here's a link about the history of as to why the interval nomenclature question came up in the first place.
I'm not one to nitpick, but it's the 2:00 am hour that repeats. If the time changed at 01:59:59, then bars that close at 2:00 could stay open an extra hour, less one second. Here in California, bars must close no later than 2:00 am. On the last day of PDT, they must close by the first 2:00 am.
Both clock changes are at 2:00.
In the fall, that means the 1:00-2:00 hour repeats. In the spring, that means the 2:00-3:00 hour is skipped.
So work for transit in the spring and get a free hour's pay and in the fall lose an hour's pay?
Nope...nobody loses pay.
David
Get an hour OT in the fall, and get paid 8 for working 7 in the spring.
I believe it goes from 2:59 back to 2:00, though I could be wrong.
You are. It goes from 1:59 back to 1:00.
You are. It goes from 1:59 back to 1:00.
And if you look at the SubTalk list from last night that holds true. There are two hours of worth of postings using 1:00. There are two hours worth of "1's"
Amtrak in the Fall will hold trains for an hour so they don't run early. In the spring they let em run late.
I'd never take an overnight train on that night in the fall. I can't think of much that's more irritating than sitting in a station waiting for the hour from 1 AM to 2 AM to repeat itself.
Man that sucks. I didn't realize that is how Amtrak treats the extra hour!
Try riding Amtrak anywhere where they don't own the track. You're in the hole for hot COFC trains the entire time!
Amtrak in the Fall will hold trains for an hour so they don't run early.
There aren't that many trains affected by this though. The trains nominally affected are all long-distance trains, and they're usually somewhat behind schedule by that hour anyway, so it gives them a chance to get back on schedule (or at least closer to it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just rode up from Broad to Canal on the J train the other day, and noticed that they are breaking through a wall at Canal St. It looks like they are going to either re-connect the express tracks or maybe change to a single island platform there. Anyone know what the plans are?
The Queens-bound platforms at both Bowery and Canal Street will be abandoned when they finish extending the Broad Street Bound track through at Canal. The Broad St bound express track will become the Queens-bound track. Do a search on subtalk using Canal as a subject. There was a whole thread on this last week for more info.
They are realigning the Nassau St line to two tracks(the Broad St bound "express" track will become the Queens-bound track, in my opinion its a bad idea. Notice that the Broad St bound platforms at Canal and Bowery is rebuilt. As for Essex, I think the side platform will become disused and as for Chambers, I really dont know what they're going to do. There's a recent discussion about this in the archives.
As for Essex, I think the side platform will become disused and as for Chambers, I really dont know what they're going to do.
At Essex, the wall platform will remain the Broad Street Bound platform. The Center track on the island platform will become the Queens-bound track, and the current Queens-bound track will become disused, but not abandoned. If a Chrystie service was ever reinstated it would have to use that track for Queens-bound trains, and off course GO's would still use it..
As for Chambers, I also have no idea what they have planned.
I have heard that there are structural obstacles to connecting the lower (northbound) track from Fulton Street to either of the middle tracks at Chambers Street. I think that there are columns in the way, which are too costly to remove.
I have heard that there are structural obstacles to connecting the lower (northbound) track from Fulton Street to either of the middle tracks at Chambers Street. I think that there are columns in the way, which are too costly to remove.
I wonder if they are the pilings on which the 23-story Municipal Building rest.
wayne
Every time I take the Lex line down to Wall St. in rush hour, I spend most of the ride crammed in like a sardine thinking about what could be done to help this without spending ten digits. Here's my idea (keep in mind it's just food for thought...).
My main beef is that no 6th Avenue train goes near the financial district...you have to change at W 4th to an 8th Ave train, or worst yet change at Essex to a Nassau St train. No one likes to change trains when you are coming off another train already (i.e, Metro North).
So here's the plan:
1. Using the space where there used to be a fourth track along the 42nd St Shuttle, construct a walking tunnel (maybe with a moving sidewalk) to connect the 6th Ave line station to GCT. (Another walking tunnel could connect Grand Central North at 47th/Madison to Rockefeller Center's underground complex at 48th & 5th).
2. Extend the IND south from World Trade Center to connect to the BMT. Construct a fly-under connection between the BMT line between Cortlandt and Rector.
3. Run the E train on 6th Ave and the V train on 8th Ave. Cross them back at W 4th. St. to the other lines (I think that junction was designed for this purpose)
4. Terminate E trains the center platform at Whitehall St instead of World Trade Center.
If we had something like this now, we would still probably still have a B & D train running through (they could have run them through the Montague St. Tunnel instead of split service).
Like I said, food for thought and debate...
A couple of issues:
1. The MOST crowded part of the Lex in the AM rush is 86th to GCT. GCT to Wall St actually has some occasional breathing room by comparison.
2. If you only switch some of the local trains at W 4th and not all, you reduce capacity by adding switching. Also, the many E's are needed in the reverse direction to carry passengers from Penn to E 53rd. So, as a slight variation, leave Es and Vs as is in midtown, but then at W 4th send all Fs to WTC, all Vs to Euclid, all Es to the Culver line, and all Cs to 2nd Ave.
3. A flying junction at Cortlandt and Church would be VERY difficult to do without massive reconstruction. The current E and N/R tracks are at exactly the same level. One train or the other would have to take a steep dive. Not clear how to do that without building a new Cortlandt St N/R station a level below the current one.
I like your variation on the route changes, it solves the issue nicely and resolves the delays caused by a junction at W4.
I would figure that there would be some pretty massive construction to connect the E to the N/R, but what I would expect would be that they would simply depress the downtown direction of both lines to create the junction...
Well there was that bellmouth from the E line south of Canal, I think for a Water st subway.
4. Terminate E trains the center platform at Whitehall St instead of World Trade Center.
Is that what is depicted in this photo at 49th Street on the Broadway line? The EE train has a destination of Whitehall Street. Since it had double letters it looks like it ran local on Queens Blvd, and then through the 60th Street tunnel like the R train does, and then terminated at Whitehall. Was this service run in addition to an 8th Ave E train? Was this the only Broadway train that ran local on Queens Blvd at the time?
Ignore the above post, I forgot to include the photo in the post, see other post.
Hopefully, once the MB is fully open, they keep the current level of service to Astoria. In that case they might terminate one of the two Astoria lines at Whitehall again.
4. Terminate E trains the center platform at Whitehall St instead of World Trade Center.
Is that what is depicted in this photo of an EE train at 49th Street on Broadway? For it to have double letters it must have been a local train on Queens Blvd, run through the 60th Street tunnel, terminating at Whitehall. Was there also an 8th Ave E train run at the same time running express on Queens Blvd? Was this "EE" train the only Broadway service serving the local stations on QUeens Blvd running at the time?
I remember the EE running from Continental Ave to Whitehall via the 60th St tunnel a ways back.
"4. Terminate E trains the center platform at Whitehall St instead of World Trade Center."
Its the center track at Whitehall, not a center platform.
Probably wouldn't work b/c there are too many E's, especially during the rush hours & delays would be common(look what happened with the W when it had the Astoria express)
Wouldn't it be easier to just get people to stop riding?
What happened on the Corridor (NorthEast Corrdior) today. NJUT says single track between Rahway and Linden with hjeavy delays and traisn leaving NY Penn are "delayed indeifintiely." Trespasser injury (12-9 to NYC Transit?) or was it a derailment? Fishbowl 5301 nay info?
Nothing on CBS or WINS radio web sites.
All the more reason to buy a scanner!
see ......."Explanation for MAJOR Ne Corridor Delays"...its also another topic on the board.
That train was stuck on the track which caused the single tracking.
I heard it was downed wires on our radio station.
Chuck Greene
I was going through a book I had called "Subway Ceramics" because of the current Abandoned Stations thread (which actually came to become a thread about the mosaics and tiles). I came across South Ferry in the book and realized something I didn't really know before. It said that until about the 60's or 70's (I don't have the book with me so I forgot what date was given) it was the Lexington Trains that used the outer loop and the 7th Ave trains that used the inner loop. It wasn't until Lexington Trains stopped going to South Ferry that the 7th Ave line trains started using the main outer loop station.
Is this true?
And how did the Bowling Green shuttle fit into all this?
That doesn't sound right. The 7th Ave train coming south from Rector St. cannot access the inner loop.
From what I know of South Ferry, the Lexington Ave. trains always used the inner loop, until the R-types showed up in the 1950's, which couldn't be set to open just their middle doors. After this, the shuttle, using specially modified R-types, used the inner loop and the Lexington Ave. thru trains (#5, weekends and evenings, #6 late nights) shared the outer loop platform with the #1.
That's why I asked, because it also didn't sound right to me. For anyone that has the book, it does say that in the South Ferry section.
The Bowling Green shuttle used the inner loop.
This morning, I took NJT from Trenton into NY Penn departing at 713A
The ride (as usual) was uneventful until we left Newark Penn Station...about 5 minutes out (we were right across from the PATH yards), the train began to jerk and the lights went out. Suddenly, the crews started yelling to the engineer over the PA system.
A few minutes later, the conductor got back on the PA and informed us that the "PANIC LINE" had fallen, and explained that this is the line that powers the train. He explained that we would be waiting for a while for a relief train.....and wait we did...almost 1 and 1/2 hrs till an Amtrak train came along. I dont know what # that train was, but it was mostly made up of sleeping cars.The excitment came when we had to disembark the NJT train...walk on tracks..then hop onto the Amtrak train, which was no easy feat for lots of people since the train was so high off the ground. The crews kept stressing that we were touch the ground before boarding the amtrak train as not not risk eletrocution since the downed line had electricity running through our train. The Amtrak train could only accomodate 1/2 the NJT passengers, so the rest of us had to wait about 20 minutes for the next Amtrak train to pull up alongside.
I dont know the train # for that one either...put i know it was a acela regional headed to boston, made up of coach cars. After sitting for about another 20 minutes, we finally arrived at NY penn at 11am when we should have arrived near 830a. The hell was not over for lots though, as I exited the station, I noticed that most NE corridor trains were operating on 2:15 delays.
A couple questions--1) although the NJT staff was nice, why didnt they dispatch a new train faster, especially since the NJT yard was on the other side of the path yard? 2)how common is it for this line to fall off the train, and how dangerous of a situation was this?
3)what may have caused the line to fall? 4) is it usual for amtrak to rescue NJT passengers?
anyone have answers to the few questions at the bottom of my posting?
I'm posting from the Internet Cafe near 42nd and 7th right now. I had a heck of a time getting to NYC this morning.
I was on the 7:19 NE Corridor train from Trenton. About 3 minutes out of Newark the train suddenly lurched forward and the power died, and then it stopped completely. A few minutes later the condutor informed us that one of the pantographs had fallen off the roof and was hanging off of the side of one of the cars. This was about 8:20AM. A few minutes later, he came back and told us that another train was on it's way to pick us up to continue the trip into Penn. We were given a dire warning:
"When you exit the train, make sure that you do not touch both trains at once. There is electricty flowing through both trains and if you touch them both at once, you will be electrocuted."
Making this announcement to a train full of unhappy and stranded commuters raised all sorts of ire. We waited a full 30 minutes in the middle of the track before the first Amtrak came along. However, since it had come all the way from D.C. it was unable to take on a full train of people. It did, however, take some of the passengers from the rear of the train. A train pulled by an Acela engine came right after that and was able to take the rest of us, and the transfer process took a good 30 minutes, assisting people and their luggage as well as making sure every person was grounded before they touched the handle to board the Amtrak train.
Once on the Amtrak train, we then had to wait for the NJT train to be pulled out of the way. This took another solid 45 minutes or so. According to the schedule, we should have been in Penn by 8:38. The train arrived just before 11. I can only imagine what chaos there was down the lien for people waiting to get to the city.
I was just glad to get on the ground at last but do you think I'd be unreasonable to complain about being delayed by more than 2 hours? It was fortunate I didn't have to be somewhere extremely important.
Hey subway 2k.....i was on this train with you today!!!! I put my recollections up under "explanation for major njt delays"
Which car? I was on 1308.
Now that's something to tell the grandkids.
I have two things to say to this:
1) The NJT crew did an excellent job taking care of the #1 priority: YOUR SAFETY. They got everybody off your train and onto other trains with no injuries and (I presume) no loss of personal belongings, and if that took thirty minutes, so be it. Would you rather have been dead? Would you have been willing to endanger someone else to speed up the process?
2) It's possible that the "rescue" trains could have been dispatched sooner, but without knowing what equipment was available, and where it came from, I won't try to pass judgment. If it had to come from Sunnyside Yard, I can understand part of the delay.
"I was just glad to get on the ground at last but do you think I'd be unreasonable to complain about being delayed by more than 2 hours? It was fortunate I didn't have to be somewhere extremely important."
I think it's fortunate you had a professional crew who responded appropriately to an emergency, protected your personal safety and got you to your destination no worse for the wear. I also think you should contact NJ Transit's management and let them know you appreciated this crew's efforts.
I thought the crew did an excellent job too. They kept their cool and the grumblings about being held up were reserved, as far as I saw, between us riders and not directed at the crew as if they had anything to do with it.
My main issue was the train delay. Maybe because it took so long because it was the weekend? I don't know.
"When you exit the train, make sure that you do not touch both trains at once. There is electricty flowing through both trains and if you touch them both at once, you will be electrocuted."
Why does this seem to be the stuff of urban legend? Does anyone actually have any real documentation of potential differences between standing trains (I could see how it could happen, but if the danger was REALLY that great, they'd turn off the catenary and ground it.).
I can't imagine with THAT much danger (and 11,000 volts at high amps is not something anyone takes lightly), they'd not turn off and ground both trains (an easy task).
My guess is the real reason is that a slight potential *could* exist, and they don't want anyone getting stunned by it and falling and getting injured.
In any case, it seems electrically difficult, if not impossible, for a potential to exist - they're both standing on rails on the ground!
Wow my wife and myself were no NJ Transit Northeast Corrider on Saturday going to a Broadway show. Glad it didn't happen then or I guess we would have missed to show. Pretty expensive tickets. I could be wrong but it seems that NJ Transit it slipping a little. Are they maintaining there trains very well or are they cutting back on maintenance?
While I was browsing through some microfilm newspapers, I ran across a curious reference in The New York World, Thursday, March 11, 1880 in which there was mention of a bill before the New York State Legislature which was under attack from Senator Forster. He wanted to repeal the Metropolitan three-tier road charter of 1869, also known as the Swain three-tier road. There was no other information on this. I tried to research it but came up completely empty! There is nothing at all on the internet as far as I can tell.
Does anyone know about this three-tier road and what it is, or how i can investigate it further?
My guess is that it has something to do with the elevated railroads being constructed during this period in N.Y.C. Appreciate any help!
Thanks.
I just read an article in Newsday online about debris falling from subway tracks. Apparently, the TA is being careless in some of it's construction jobs on the elevated tracks, and debris is falling down to the road below, in some cases falling onto vehicles and causing injuries.
This was big news in the late 1970s because of deferred maintenance.
--Mark
So, I see a G/O that says the 5 will terminate at 149th Street, Grand Concourse. How will they turn them without affecting the 2?
They use the middle track on #4 line's platform.
Is the GO which suspends both 2 and 5 service between 180th and 3rd Ave. still in effect, or is this a new GO?
No, this time it's 5's from the north that are terminating at 149-GC. They can't get to the 4 platform.
They'll probably relay in the middle at 138-GC. If we're lucky, they'll run in service to Times Square.
The reason is split service on the 4 at 125, probably related to the 125 rehab work.
Incidentally, in the GO that ends today, 5 trains are not using the middle track at 149-GC to terminate -- that track seems to have been turned into a layup track. Instead, they're all using the local tracks and relaying. I can't imagine why.
It's faster to relay north of 149 than it is to use the station itself.
This way, if you have a delay, and two 5 trains come in back-to-back, you don't have to worry about space on M track. It's easier to just send them north of the station to get them out of the way. And if there is a delay, you can relay north of 161, and shoot right back down to 149 to go in service.
But by terminating on the local track, 4 trains are delayed.
I don't see why trains weren't terminating primarily on the middle track, with the relay used only if another train was blocking the middle. But the middle track wasn't even accessible -- in addition to the train in the station, there was another train immediately south of the station, and perhaps more that I couldn't see from my vantage point.
The 4's have not really been delayed. 5 makes a normal station stop at 149. C/R announces "last stop, last stop", and there are about 2 platform C/R's and other personnel cleaing out the train. It worked great both weekends.
The NB 5's I saw yesterday morning sat around for five minutes. I don't know if that was typical.
Seems silly to run the #5 all the way to 149th St, just to go out of service. Why not simply run the shuttle from Dyre to 180th St. all weekend long?
Because then 5 passengers who are used to a one-seat ride into Manhattan (south of 125) will have to put up with a four-seat ride (5 to E180, 2 to 149-GC, 4 to 125, other 4 to wherever). This way they'd at least only have a three-seat ride.
If the 5 is extended to Times Square, signs (yeah, right!) can encourage passengers, if possible, to stay on the 5 to Times Square and take the shuttle or BMT to their destinations, reducing crowds at 149-GC and 125.
Why not run the entire #5 line on the West Side, running down thru South Ferry?
Why should it? Times Square is a convenient place to terminate the 5 -- it has lots of useful transfers for people trying to get back to the East Side, and the 1/2/3 could use a bit more weekend service north of 42nd (especially on the local, and sending the 5 express to 42nd would bump the 2 and 3 onto the local). South of 34th the 1/2/3 is relatively quiet.
If the work at 125th is only on one of the tracks, OTOH, I'd suggest sending the 5 down the West Side, through the SF loop, and up the East Side to the Bronx (or vice versa). That's what was done for similar GO's in the past.
Yeah, I once rode that bizarre GO.....down 7th Ave, through south ferry, then up Lexington Ave.
I just suggested it over using Times Sq. to eliminate a potential bottleneck.
As long as the 2 and 3 run local, there is no bottleneck. (And, at least in theory, the 1, 2, and 3 should have no problem fitting on the local together at weekend headways.)
I rode the 3 on the local one weekend last year from 79th to 34th. No problems whatsoever. Of course, I could have taken any train since they would all make the same stops.
is the C - train ten cars.
Nope, still 8X60'
I was just wondering, how many of you who are T/O's or C/R's (or were) actually used those things for their purpose?
What was their purpose?
Making sure that school kids behave as well as making sure pax stand behind the yellow line.
They're SUPPOSED to be used to lift the current collectors off the third rail so as to remove power to the car so you can get to the fusebox and replace fuses without getting killed, and the old style third rail shoes could be broken OFF if you needed to "depower" the car on the road.
To lift the third rail shoe off the third rail. Two are needed per car and maybe a third one if the car is bridging a gap.
Then you can pull the knife switch or whatever
You mean they were not made to punch buttons and wedge doors open?
Bon jour! Twice in the nearly a year I was with the show. And I note that they're SHORTER now than they used to be. You don't want to replace a line fuse without 'em ...
Shoe Paddle 101: The nice shiney bright yellow shoe paddles are provided for lifting the third rail 'current collector' of the third rail and disconnecting 600 VDC power. The yellow paint (whiched replaced black paint) is supposed to be fire retardent but the insulation is provided by the clear wood structure (right, like I'd really trust some of them for insulation qualities.) When a car in a trainset has 600VDC problems, a T/O, C/R or RCI would use the paddle for positive disconnection off the third rail. Most paddles are used by C/Rs to make a seat in the conductors cab...many are now used to unjamb Redbird storm doors or to glue up flash shields on R142s. It's a really handy tool in skilled hands...not to mention that it is also an 'instrument of discipline.' Of course, it also makes a unique 'cricket bat.' CI Peter
And let's not forget how handy they are in reclaiming that lost pizza from the back of the oven. :)
I heard that shoe paddles are used to flip burgers at the annual TA car inspector picnic ! Is that right CI Peter ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll bet they *WERE* the burgers. :)
Back in the good old days I paddled contact shoes on the road twice, perhaps 3 times in a year and a half. In the yards, they are used far more frequently. More often than not, T/Os and conductors use them to force cab windows open/closed, to hold cab doors open, to punch for routes or to wake sleping skells. Here's the real question, How many shoe paddles do you need to paddle a car and if so, why is there only one per car?
Even R44/R46's only have one per car?
5 1 per cab in IRT eqip except for 142/a
On a bad day, you need five - one for each collector and one to help get the other four in place. On a really good day, you can get away with two.
as for the originl question, the only time I've done it was in School Car. Ranks right up there with using the 600v DC jumper cable to move a train.
I understand they have "golden slippers" these days. Does that mitigate the need to double-up? I did the shoehorn trick twice many years ago and it gave me the willies ... and I have a background in electronics tech. 600 volts was plate voltage in most German radios of the vintage, but the amount of current available was still impressive. Nothing I enjoyed more than lifting the second show and watching that arc. Fortunately never had to do it on the road. That's what RCI's were for. ")
The R-46s have 2 per A car only. Since 3rd rail is virtually always on one side only (as opposed to both sides at once), three shoe paddles are needed for each car. One for each of the 2 powered contact shoes and one to do the lifting so the paddle can be inserted.
I saw one of the more recent, shorter paddles up at Branford in 6688. I remember being told years ago that if you were able to get TWO under there, you were safer for a total of five.
So buddy ... will you sign me up for school car? I'd be willing to do it again. Even the structure walk bit. And if I get me a pair of those neat Bozo the clown shoes to wear at Branford, I'll be an even HAPPIER camper. :)
Whoop! Make that TWO ... Bingbong won't let me attend school car unless SHE gets to go also and take 'em out first ... heh.
There is not enough money in the world to trust my life with some of the pathetic shoe paddles I have seen. Now, with New Tech, many shoe paddles are sacrificed in feeble attempts to glue up flash boards with silicon sealants. What is the procedure for making 'a suggestion' to TA??? We find shoe paddles left in the pits in far better condition than Redbird crews have access to. BTW: I can do isometric drawings and blueprints as well as jpgs and streaing videos.
CI Peter
I visited an underutilized piece of infrastructure today -- the George Washington Bridge Bus Station. I took my daughters on a hike over the GW Bridge to Fort Lee, and then caught a bus back to Manhattan.
I had never been to any of these places before, but I had heard that the GW Bridge bus station had never lived up to its promise, is served by relatively few buses, and loses money. Not many people, I guess, want to take a bus to Manhattan and then get on the A train to reach their destination. Or take the subway to 175th and then get on a bus, rather than doing so at the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
As a subway rider, I have to say, why not? Perhaps if the middle lanes on the upper level of the GW, originally planned for trolleys, were limited to buses (like the express bus lanes in the Lincoln Tunnel) this could be a key gateway for points north. At least for those unafraid of the subway. After all, from 175th Street its only 18 minutes to Times Square and 30 minutes to Broadway-Nassau.
Perhaps it's the mindset of many people from NJ that they'd rather drive and endure the GWB traffic however brutal, than ride on a bus and/or a subway.
wayne
seems like a decent plan to me.
step two IIRC from recent posts, there is some underutilised tunnel structure east of GWBBS which might be useful for dedicated bus (maybe someday rail) service. HBLR phase x to ...
And if the lanes could support "trolleys" they could support non FRA lightweight "subway cars" CTA 6000 general specs.
I have used it, and like it a lot. If NJT were to increase bus service to it and do a little marketing (some of it for reverse commuters) you might see heavier usage.
Going a little off topic, what is the fare back and the bus number?
My 10 yr old nephew wants to walk over every large bridge in NY, so far we have the Brooklyna and Manhattan down, still waiting for Willy B and 59th St.
That is a great plan to take a bus back, what do I look for?
It's a little tricky once you come off the bridge walkway, assuming the south side is still open as it was three years ago. You have to turn left past the entrance to the historical park, then turn right and walk several blocks uphill on Fort Lee's Main Street until you see the toll plaza and maintenance facility on the right. You then turn right on the first major street, which I think is Lemoyne Avenue. In the middle of the overpass over the toll approach, there's a stairway leading down into the roadway cut, where there's a dedicated siding with bus stop. It looks like most NJT buses headed into the city over the GWB will pull in there- which is good, considering the terrible amount of exhaust fumes inhaled. Three years ago, the fare was about $2.00. It appears that the drivers will make change.
This is only from memory. Some of the details may not be exactly on the money, so don't hold me to this. I'd check my Rand McNally Metro New York street map, which goes deep into Joisey, but all my stuff is packed up for the big move tomorrow. At least I'll still have the computer till the end of the day. SIGH-
I have been wanting to visit the lighthouse at the base of the GWB, is there a way to get to it from the streets around the bus terminal?
wayne
"I have been wanting to visit the lighthouse at the base of the GWB, is there a way to get to it from the streets around the bus terminal?"
You can do it, but I don't remember the details. The trick is that you have to get across the Henry Hudson. You can certainly walk north from the park at 145th (there's a crossing of the HH Pkwy there). I know there is a pedestrian crossing of the Parkway closer to the bridge; I just don't remember where.
There's an overpass across the northbound roadway just north of 181st Street. I don't know how easy it is to get across the southbound roadway from there.
Not too bad. I don't remember the route well enough to describe it, but Jr., Mary and I did it a few years back... the first three pictures on this page document our little hike.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You cross the northbound roadway at 181st St on an overpass, wind your way downhill and, I beleive, use a tunnel under the southbound roadway. On nice days, there are usually other pedestrians and bikers around. The route is part of a marked bike path along the Hudson.
Occasionally, the Parks Dept gives guided tours which include the interior of the lighthouse (normally closed).
"You cross the northbound roadway at 181st St on an overpass, wind your way downhill and, I beleive, use a tunnel under the southbound roadway."
Now that you mention a tunnel under the SB roadway, it rings a bell.
You cross the northbound roadway at 181st St on an overpass, wind your way downhill and, I beleive, use a tunnel under the southbound roadway.
Yes, that's right... I had forgotten the details until your refresher. And now that my memory has been jogged, we were there in February... the tunnel under the southbound roadway was outfitted with two large cardboard boxes along one side and their occupants. But they kept to themselves and didn't bother us or anyone else that I noticed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The south side is open and the north side is closed (as a child, I do remember walking on the north side with my father though).
The directions are generally correct - after exiting the bridge walkway, turn left, cross at the light, walk up to Lemoine Av, then turn right and walk down the stairs with the sign that says "Buses to NY"
Any NJ Transit (171, 175, 178, 181, 182, 186, 188) and Rockland Coach (9, 11C, 14, 25, 84) bus will take you across.
NJT Fare is $1.40
R&T should be about the same.
But come on, now - you know you can walk both ways!!! I've done it a few times in the past couple of weeks, it's about 40-45 minutes round trip, depending on how fast you walk.
I also like to sign at the top of the stairs for the westbound bus stop - "Buses to NJ". First of all, we're IN Jersey, secondly, not all of the buses are "going to" NJ - The Rockland Coach buses are in fact going to New York in both directions!
(But come on, now - you know you can walk both ways!!! I've done it a few times in the past couple of weeks, it's about 40-45 minutes round trip, depending on how fast you walk.)
Not with the kids. They loved the views, but described the walking experience as inferior to the Manhattan and Brooklyn bridges. Right beside the traffic, they were bothered by the noise and fumes. The bus back (which is as you described -- the kids were free) made it a good outing, the return walk would have been tough for them.
We also enjoyed the exhibits at Fort Lee Park south of the bridge, including the map with lights and narration showing the entire sequence of the battle of the NY Metro area in the revolutionary war, from its beginning in Brooklyn to its end at Fort Lee. Old GW got his ass kicked all over the Metro Area, but we won all the battles upstate. The federal government has favored upstate ever since.
Starting November 4, 2002 NJT will be lowering the fares between GWB plaza in Ft. Lee and the bus terminal to $1 .
Troy
I actually PREFER using the GWB bus station to 42nd street. It's cleaner, not as mobbed, and the ride over the bridge is usually faster (and nicer) than the slow Lincoln tunnel.
I find it much quicker to take the A to GWB and the 171 bus to Garden State mall, then the 163 from 42nd st.
Good points.
The Rockhill Trolley Museum sponsored a SEPTA PCC charter on Sunday using #2785 on the northern portion of Route 23, turning back at Susquehanna Ave on the Huntingdon Loop. I was able to ride the first part of the trip and enjoyed riding with Lou from Brooklyn, Sparky, and Keystone Pete. When I bailed out during the rest stop at Erie Ave (took BSS to Walnut Locust, then PATCO to Lindenwold), it had been an excellent trip up to that point.
Photos are uploaded on a Webshots page
2728 looks horrible! Does Septa have any plans to repaint the historic fleet? Also, I understand that there are currently no plans to run the holiday trolley this year either.
-Robert King
Last year's version of the Holiday Trolley was operated on the subway-surface diversion route (38th/40th) because of Route 15 construction. This year, the work on 15 is done. I haven't heard any word on whether the original (11th/12th) Holiday Trolley or its western counterpart (last year's version) would run this year. Stay tuned...
I've heard that there's going to be no holidy trolley at all because nobody has stepped forward yet (hopefully this will change) to finance it and Septa refuses to incur the costs of running it themselves.
-Robert King
That is what was said by the SEPTA supervisor on the Rt 23 fan trip, no one has sponsored it.
The same thing happened last year. Well, almost the same thing. SEPTA had an 'out' since the cars couldn't get from Elmwood to Center City with the Girard Ave construction. At the last minute, the University City District came through and funded the diversion trackage operation. It was a bit odd, since it only ran Wednesdays thru Saturdays, but it still ran.
This year the Girard construction is done. Maybe a 'taker' is still out there?
I took the subway surface to the 40th Street portal last December 20 to look for the Christmas trolley and was treated to a ride to Island Ave. There the motorman had to take a long telephone break to deal with a crisis at home, so I returned on a regular Subway Surface car, which was operated by Bill Monahan.
Photos of my adventures of the day are on a Webshots page.
As always, great pics Bob!
There's a nice shot of the Trolley Car Diner, too. I eat there regularly (it's in Mount Airy). I recommend it - the chili is excellent and the staff very friendly.
It was paradise for the participants with the still cameras.
The shortened trip and mucho photos stops, you'se was in
"Trolley Heaven". Hope's those with stills didn't mind the
Loop de Loop at Old York Road for us guys with vidoes.
Tough line to do runbys for moving shots. We did have the
opportunity at select locations though. GREAT TRIP!!!
;-) Sparky
It was great to see you again Bob, great shots.
I'll post my photos soon.
Although I did talk briefly with Bob, I'm sorry, I wish I had at least said hello to you guys on this trip! I was busy riding with my dad and my cousin, and since we've never met, or possibly only briefly on a fantrip in New York, I don't know you by appearance (nor you, I, I imagine).
After the trip, dad showed me around Mount Airy, where he lived the first years of his life. He said he remembers sitting on the front porch "smelling the ozone" emanating from Germantown Depot. He recalls the place being "filled with streetcars." Later, we got cheesesteaks at the Trolley Car Diner, which was very good, as RonInBayside already mentioned.
Hopefully, I'll be able to chat with you guys more next time around, be it in New York, Philadelphia or wherever!
Keystone Pete
>>>"I don't know you by appearance (nor you, I, I imagine."<<,
>>>"Hopefully, I'll be able to chat with you guys more next time around,
be it in New York, Philadelphia or wherever!"<<<
Well, the easiest way to identify ourselfs, look upward, at
6'8" (Big Lou) & 6'3" (Sparky) we stand up in a gathering.
>>>"Later, we got cheesesteaks at the Trolley Car Diner,
which was very good, as RonInBayside already mentioned."<<<
That part we blew, not being in the know. There's always next time.
;-) Sparky
>>>"I don't know you by appearance (nor you, I, I imagine."<<,
>>>"Hopefully, I'll be able to chat with you guys more next time around,
be it in New York, Philadelphia or wherever!"<<<
Well, the easiest way to identify ourselfs, look upward, at
6'8" (Big Lou) & 6'3" (Sparky) we stand up in a gathering.
Sorry I didn't introduce you guys. Sparky is on the left, closest to the camera, in my shot of the interior of #2785. Lou is sitting in front of Sparky. You can't tell that Lou is 6'7" from the photo because he's slouching, but his knees being in the middle of the aisle gives it away.
You can't tell I'm 6'7 because I'm 6'8" >G<
Sorry, Your Largeness; I misremembered the number from Sparky's message. From my vantage point, I couldn't differentiate between 6'8" and 6'7", anyway. No slight was intended.
To placate you, here's a #2785 photo that I didn't upload onto my page of Sunday's trip photos.
> dad showed me around Mount Airy, where he lived the first years of
> his life. He said he remembers sitting on the front porch
> "smelling the ozone" emanating from Germantown Depot
Sounds like your dad and mine were kids together! He lived on Gorgas Lane only a few houses down from the Depot.
Dad was a tyke on Mt. Airy Avenue. The house is gone -- replaced by a community center in the 1980s. From that location, you can see the back of what used to be a movie theater (Selwyn?). From Germantown Ave., you can't tell from the storefronts that it was a theater. There's no marquis or anything. Now the bulk of the building is a storage space, or so the sign said.
After the charter, he showed me around the neighborhood. The family used to travel downtown, taking the streetcar to BSS. On the way back, they'd usually take the Reading from the terminal. We poked around the Mt. Airy (I think) station a bit. You can walk right up to the tracks north of the station.
On the way back to the turnpike, we stopped off Rt. 309 on a side-street to look at the grassy median, which marks where the PTC Willow Grove line ran up until the early 1950's (I believe). Dad barely remembers operations on the line, but legend has it that his parents' first date was a ride on that line to Willow Grove amusement park, which has long-since been replaced by a shopping mall.
>>>"enjoyed riding with Lou from Brooklyn, Sparky"<<<
It was our pleasure to ride with you and as usual
great job on the pixs of the trip. I'm an amatuer
videotographer and most of my filming is ... sheet.
;-) Sparky
I was just wondering what did our fellow sub talkers do on the 98th birthday if the irt? Anything Transit related? or did someone throw a big party?
Not me, I aggravated my hernia repair last night when I sneezed and I've been pretty sore. I haven't strayed too far from the computer all day and am contemplating taking a sick day tomorrow.
wayne
Hope you are OK for the 11th ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Oh, man! Do feel better!! You need to be in shape for subway tour #9. Get my e-mail?
--Mark
I added some more CI tools to my kit for Branford....'Old is new again.' CI Peter
See if you can find some storm door rollers for 1689. Whoops. Wrong shop. :)
I slept!
-Robert King
As mentioned in an earlier thread, at least four SubTalkers (Keystone Pete, Lou from Brooklyn, chuchubob, and Sparky) rode the SEPTA Route 23 charter.
went to memorial drive in cambridge, saw a historical U.S. Route 3 sign, and then watched a CSX switcher roll by on the nearby allston yard (CP-3).
AEM7
Worked on the W line very early morning till early afternoon. Had all 75' trains (boo!). Sighted 1 R32, 1 R40M and a few slants. Bought home a whole square pizza (16 slice job) from a local Italian bakery under the shadows of Ditmars Blvd. station. Swept leaves in the afternoon, then went to church. My 3 top pizza places: the above mentioned, another one by the post office under Ditmars Blvd station as well (albeit a bit expensive) and Armondos sicilian pizza located outside Canarsie L station.
D'OH! I RODE the subway yesterday, but strictly on the B Division- completely forgot it was the IRT's birthday. Avoiding the IRT wasn't a conscious decision. It just happened that way due to time constraints thanks to yesterday's time change.
Parked by 75th Avenue station in Forest Hills- the meters on Queens Boulevard are free on Sundays. Rode R-32 E over reroute through 63rd Street. Conductor was very good about making announcements at Roosevelt: "Due to track work, this train is NOT going through 53rd Street or down 8th Avenue. Change here for 7 or R for access to the East Side and 4, 5 and 6 service. Change at West 4th for uptown and downtown 8th Avenue service. NO 23-Ely, NO Lexington-53, NO 7th Avenue, NO service down 8th Avenue- No, No, NO!!"
At 50/Rock, crossed over to uptown platform for D to 59th, watching people react in confusion to Queens-bound E train passing through (which somehow made a lot of people think they could get to Lex/53rd, something not normally possible on weekends for the past ten months!). Very long wait at 59th for uptown A, the first two cars of which were R32s, the remainder 38s for very speedy ride up CPW. Off at 168th, over to Amsterdam Avenue for uptown M101 to last stop at 190th Street. Walked down extremely long, steep Fort George Hill with great view looking down at 1 trains coming out of portal into Dyckman. This was the only time I saw IRT trains yesterday, although I heard plenty passing through overhead while waiting at Columbus.
Continued walk on Dyckman to Broadway and into Fort Tryon Park up killer hill to Cloisters. Got M4 bus to Fort Wash & 177th; downstairs to R-38 A downtown to 125th; R-38 C to 86th. Walked through Central Park to 5th & 72nd; M3 to 56th; walked over to 6th Avenue; F uptown back to 75th. Had no time to wait for E, as I had to pick up my mother-in-law at 5:00 for son's 7th birthday party. Actual birthday is today.
This was by no means a big excursion for me but was all I could do between lunch and 5:00. Had I remembered it was the IRT's birthday, I would've made a point to ride some of it. Oh, well.
Well I had a real cruddy round of golf. I play only nine holes and all I had to show for today was one par. I worked in the weight room this morning and it could be my muscles were too tight to swing the clubs properly so I'm going out tomorrow. Another cruddy round and that excuse will have to go by the boards and then back to the laboratory for me.
Fred, you should have been in the City. In honor of your birthday, the Sea Beach express was running!
Hey, I took that very same picture through the railfan window (of an R-40) on Sunday!
Hey, I took that very same picture through the railfan window (of an R-40) on Sunday!
Mine was also an R-40 (4233, to be exact). If you came through around 2:00, I was camped out on the platform at 18 Ave.
No, I think I came through a little bit later. (I would have been somewhat earlier had my C train not gone express from Hoyt to Utica, forcing me to backtrack to get to Franklin.)
The W seemed to be running on a random schedule when I rode it. The gap before the R-40 W I caught was only about two minutes. At Stillwell, the wrong T/O nearly took the train out -- he was only an interval and a half off (or, more likely, the train was an interval and a half off). Then, as we approached 36th, Murphy Tower took a coffee break and left us sitting at a red signal for five minutes on a tilt over a third rail gap with three girls running back and forth. (Okay, I won't hold them responsible for the girls, but it would have been nice if they had responded to the T/O's pleas for assistance.)
I went to a model train show in Montreal, then rode the Montreal Metro to a friends house and then up to Cote Vertu to meet my father.
Some observations on the Metro: some of the green line trains (the original Vickers trains) have automated announcements now... I guess this means they'll be getting those tri-colour digital displays like the orange, blue and yellow line trains have (and it's about time!!!). They cleaned up a lot of the graffiti on the station walls, they aren't nearly as messy now as they were a year ago. There is still plenty of scratchitti on the train windows, but not as much as last time I was there.
Overall, it was a fun day!
Spent the morning working on my stamp collection and relishing Notre Dame's victory over Florida State the previous day.
That afternoon I watched the Subway Stories video I picked up at Tower Records while in the city. I'm sure most of you have heard of it; it ran on HBO in 1997. A friend of mine taped it for me back then. There are quite a few inaccuracies, most notably dubbed-in door chimes on R-32s and R-42s. Not to mention an R-68 M train in the story with Jerry Stiller. Car 2600 popped up in that particular feature a lot. Church Ave. on the F must have been used for a lot of stations such as Broad St. and 34th St. (although the real Broad St. station was used in one story), as well one of the unused outer tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The first story featured a 4 train pulling out of Grand Central - the shuttle station!
I saw that "Subway Stories" video a few years ago. I got it from the library. My library has free VHS/DVD's movies to take out. I may stop over there on the way home and see if they have it in, so I can rewatch it tonight.
A day late, I made my commute all IRT, Queens to Union Sq. via the Corona (Flushing) IRT and the Lexington IRT. I may go back by the 7th Ave IRT to Times Sq. just so I can do all three IRT colors.
:-) Andrew
I went into NYC today, and stayed overnight in Brooklyn with my relatives. Only had time for a short IRT ride, from TS to Jackson Blvd. on the #7. -Nick
I did nothing, unfortunately.
Well, I flew out to Los Angeles (LGB, to be precise) on Sunday the 27th, but on the next day I rode Metrolink's San Bernardino line and the Red Line subway. Yesterday (10-29) I returned to New York. I'll do a more detailed report on Metrolink and the Red Line in the next couple of days, after I finish writing up the flight for airliners.net.
Took the BxM11 express bus into Manhattan (it was the last day of the 2/5 shuttle bus G.O.) to get to work. Left at midnight to go home and had to switch to the shuttle bus at Grand Concourse. I had no idea that bus goes onto Tremont Avenue all the way to White Plains Road then turns onto Morris Park Avenue. I'm glad I only had to take that shuttle bus coming home once.
sorry if i am somewhat off topic ....too bad eastcoasters !!
i feel like i got revenge for what happened with that #4 train
first we BEAT THE YANKEES ...................then ........the giants!.
Angels earn their wings
The Angels capped a magical season with a storybook ending to win the first World Series championship in the team's 42-year history. Anaheim staged a dramatic comeback on Saturday night to force a decisive seventh game. They then carried that momentum through to Sunday night, jumping out to an early lead off Giants' starter Livan Hernandez. Rookie John Lackey was steady for five innings and the Angels' bullpen closed the door as they beat San Francisco
no east coast world series all on da' west coast !!
....back to takin photos of the gold line .........lol .........
I'm not gonna go there with the 4 train incident but
GO ANGELS! ANAHEIM ROCKS
it is awesome !!
it is awesome !!
it is awesome !!
Glad to see a team winning it for the 1st time in their history. Congrats to the Angels!!! They sure deserved their wings!!!
In your face Yankees!!!
ANGELS ARE NUMERO UNO IN 2002!
I love for them to ask Mike Scoscia "Hey your team has just won the World Series. What are you gonna do now?"
"I'm going to DisneyLand!!!"
Which is like right across the street???!!!
I think?!
#1979 7 Flushing Local
Not exactly across the street (more like across Interstate 5) but very close by, like a 10 minute drive.
I lived in Southern California for 21 years, went to several Angels games (including one in 1999 when I returned for a vist where the Angels were destroyed by Texas 18-2), suffered through the 1982 and 1986 LCS collapses, and I never thought I would see this day. GO ANGELS!!!!
dont forget 1979 ...............the first playoff team ever !!
I prefer the National League to win the series. But... anything is better that a Yankee world Championship. Anything.
oh yea i got to find he orange county light rail page ...
they are supposed to be building one there soon !!
All us Southern Californians are proud of the Anaheim Angels. I rooted for them throughout the playoffs and even went to a couple of games. It was great to see the greatest of underdogs historically go all the way, but to me the greatest thing of all was how they bloodied and beat the shit out of the New York Yankees. That was like winning the Irish Sweepstakes.
they bloodied and beat the shit out of the New York Yankees...!!!
oh yea !! my revenge for the #4 incident !!
did you cneck out in the star news how the gold line ran on its own
power ?? ( only only in south pas. ) .....oh well ......
I would love to be on a test run on the Gold Line. I can hardly wait for it to start up next year.
yea i am going to get the test runs on photo every station possible !
the gold line is a very senic ride ~!
did you ever ride amtrak on that same route ?
oh yea did you hear how the NYMBYs of south pasadena did not want the
trainz to use thier horns when they cross intersections there in that
nasty little town of south pasadena ??........!
the same no on the 710 freeway nutz !! NYMBYS !!!
its the law that you use your horn two longs one short one long...
Whenever you cross any railroad crossing(s)!! Dat's da' law folks !!
too bad they want the gold line to DISOBEY the law for thier NYMBY!!
I wonder how loud the horns are on the Siemens-Duewag P2000s that will be running on the Gold Line (I unfortunately moved away from Southern California before those went into service on the Green Line, and besides horns are not needed on the Green Line since it is 100% grade-separated.)
they are not all that loud ....not at all like a santa fe railroad
engine !! but enough 4 you 2 know GET OUTA' DA' WAY !!!
..........( operation lifesaver ) ........
Congratulations to the Angels and their fans. The Angels are truly deserving champions. What an incredible amount of heart they showed, all season and throughout the playoffs. Absolutely no quit in that team!
41 games out of first place in 2001, world champs in 2002. With apologies to my beloved 1969 Mets.....AMAZING!
....1969 Mets.....AMAZING! & with da #7 train a beauty !!
all wf 33-36s !!
The Angels truly made it into heaven this year!
Way to go Anaheim Angels; you too, Salaam!
thankz i got to find that orange county light rail system page
i beleive they are supposed to start on it soon ...
i forgot da' link !!
man was it ever fun watching em win !!!
no more JINX ..................................lol !!!!!!!
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
Washington, October 14 – More than 400 of America’s transportation leaders were on hand Tuesday afternoon at Union Station to witness the unveiling of Bombardier Transportation’s new JetTrain, a 5,000hp locomotive designed to provide high-speed rail service on railroad lines that are not electrified.
Bombardier Transportation President and COO Pierre Lortier, and Marketing Vice President Lecia Stewart, led the unveiling with a video presentation in Union Station’s private Columbus Club, followed by an on-camera unveiling of the JetTrain and a tour of the actual locomotive, which was parked in Union Station for the event.
Developed in cooperation with the FRA, the JetTrain will be targeted at corridors throughout the U.S. where high-speed regional rail projects are under discussion and development. These include California, the Pacific Northwest, the nine-state Midwest Regional Rail Initiative, the Gulf Coast Corridor from Texas to Florida, Florida High-Speed Rail, the Southeastern High Speed Rail Coalition from Georgia to Washington, and New York State.
The jet aircraft engine turns a generator that supplies electricity to traction motors on the axles.
The vehicle, based on the same chassis and body as the electrified Acela Express and fully compliant with FRA safety standards, and a jet aircraft engine that is remarkably quiet (65 decibels at full throttle), would be used in tandem with cars similar to those of the Acela Express now running on Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor. Trainsets would cost around $20 million each in 10-order quantities.
The JetTrain is the first 150-mile per hour non-electric high-speed rail locomotive designed for the North American market, the firm stated in a press release.
Bombardier explained, “The state-of-the-art Bombardier JetTrain locomotive is powered by a jet engine derived from a Pratt & Whitney PW 150, which replaces the traditional diesel engine found in most current rail equipment.” Remarkably, it burns ordinary diesel fuel, the company said.
“JetTrain technology was designed to offer the speed and acceleration of electric trains without the cost of building electrified rail lines, and meets all North American standards for high-speed rail,” Bombardier stated. The initiative was launched in 1998 as a public-private development partnership between Bombardier Transportation and the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA).
FRA’s Warren Flateau told D:F last week via an e-mail interview the train was produced within budget parameters.
He said, “The public-private partnership began during Fiscal Year 1998. FRA and Bombardier have invested $13 million each into the locomotive’s development,” so $26 million produced the JetTrain.
Flateau added, “We are, of course, still intimately involved in the continued development of the power equipment and associated technologies. Bombardier and Amtrak are also expected to announce in the future a demonstration touring schedule.”
No one from Amtrak was officially present at the unveiling. A spokeswoman said the company’s fiscal future is uncertain, so for now, it cannot consider new equipment.
I find it a little funny. Bombardier is backing (and making it). The FRA is behind it. 400 "transportation leaders" (I didn't even know there were 400 transportation companies in the US) are interested in it. Everybody except Amtrak, who can't afford it, but is the only company in the US that would be able to use it, seems to be interested in it.
I'm not saying it's a bad locomotive, I just think it's funny that everybody except the most important figure has an opinion. It sure looks purdy:
The vehicle, based on the same chassis and body as the electrified Acela Express and fully compliant with FRA safety standards...
also the same trucks and yaw dampers as AE and HHP-8.
"also the same trucks and yaw dampers as AE and HHP-8."
Not if they've incorporated lessons learned while working out the bugs in them.
"also the same trucks and yaw dampers as AE and HHP-8."
Not if they've incorporated lessons learned while working out the bugs in them.
The one on display had the originals.
"The one on display had the originals."
And what does that prove?
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
Amtrak President David Gunn has called for a rail trust fund to help put both freight and passenger trains on a level playing field with other transportation modes.
Noting that air and highway transport have their infrastructure costs underwritten through the trust fund mechanisms, the Amtrak boss said it is well past time to implement a similar mechanisms for railroads as well.
Addressing the annual Railway Age conference in Washington, “Passenger Trains on Freight Railroads,” Gunn declined to stipulate a precise method for setting up such a fund. But he did cite the fuel tax now paid by the freight railroads as one ‚ and only one ‚ possibility.
When asked how he would deal with freight railroads’ longstanding opposition to creating a trust fund for fear it would amount to a foot-in-the-door for re-regulation (complete with open access and the like), Amtrak’s seventh CEO said his company and the freight rail carriers are “in the same leaky boat,” and that they both would have much to gain by cooperating in an effort to bolster the rail mode’s place in the transportation mix. He suggested specifically a capital trust fund to upgrade such rail infrastructure as trackage and signal systems.
Putting the fuel tax “back into railroad use” would make more sense than putting the 4.3-cent payment into the general federal treasury, as is done under current law, he argued.
Class I carriers have been campaigning for years to abolish the fuel tax altogether. They have noted the inequity whereby other modes have been relieved of the tax, while the feds continue to extract it from the railroads. Merely changing the tax payment’s ultimate federal destination is no solution at all, as the freight railroads see it.
“The money would largely be collected from freight railroads, but someone else would determine how the money is spent,” Association of American Railroads spokesman Tom White told D:F.
“As for the 4.3 cents, it makes no sense to put that into a trust fund that would largely benefit passenger rail,” he asserted.
“The discipline of private financing prevents railroads from investing in projects that primarily yield public benefit,” AAR President Edward R. Hamberger wrote in Crain’s Chicago Business for October 14
“These benefits, such as reduced congestion, improved air quality and greater passenger mobility, are most appropriately funded by the public.”
In an interview with D:F during the conference, Norfolk Southern’s former general counsel, Wyley Mitchell, said a private railroad would expect to invest any “trust fund” money in such a manner as to benefit its shareholders. Mitchell, who still does some work for NS but is now in private law practice, made big waves at a previous Railway Age conference when he urged the state of Virginia to invest public money in more trackage on the freight rail line along Interstate 81 rather than build another lane on the highway. At the more recent interview with D:F, Mitchell emphasized he was speaking only for himself and not for NS or the industry as a whole.
As Gunn sees it, though, the freight railroads “are in big trouble, too.”
In the 10-year period from 1987 to 1997, the railroad national share of tonnage grew from 37.5 percent to 39.5 percent. That’s “a hell of a lot more freight,” but is counterbalanced by the fact that their national share of the revenue declined from 13 percent to 7 percent.
The Amtrak president used the British analogy of sending the canary into the mine to test the gas. “Well, let me tell you, we’re flopping around at the bottom of the cage.”
Gunn cited poor passenger train on-time performance on tracks owned by freight carriers, not to beat up on the railroads, he said, but to demonstrate the problems of the industry.
One railroad, in July and August “ran 200 trains for us.” About “75 percent of the time, they were more than a half-hour late, “but half of them were hours late.”
The railroads have “all this stuff” over their properties, they have increased volume and no money for capital, and they’re not doing a great job of maintenance, they don’t have the money.” They have “basically more tonnage and less money.”
“Track quality and capacity are big problems,” reflected in Amtrak’s on-time performance on the freight property.
On some trains, you ask the conductor “what time we’ll be in Podunk, and he’ll say Tuesday.” A true story, he said, substituting “Podunk” so as not to reveal the name of the railroad.
Gunn said, however, that the “near death experience” wherein Amtrak came perilously close to missing its payroll, “scared a lot of people,” and that has caused some re-thinking of how to bring stability to the “leaky boat” in which both Amtrak and freight railroads find themselves.
“We’re meeting our cash forecasts basically every day,” he told the Railway Age conference. He outlined his tight budget policies, and with the continuing resolution for about $1.2 billion adopted in the Senate and under negotiation in the House, “We actually can plan for the first time. We have a period of stability in Fiscal Year 2003.” The question again, is the future of the entire industry, passenger and freight, he argued.
Allowing that “stability at Amtrak would be chaos anywhere else,” Gunn believes the most important thing to talk about at this juncture is “what has to happen for the future.”
He outlined, “Clearly on capital, we have to get a rail trust fund set up, similar to what exists in transit.” Transit is 20 percent local and 80 percent federal, and “we have to get out of this constant turmoil around our budget.”
He suggested, “The above-the-rail [or operating] expenses [as opposed to capital] should be paid for by the states benefiting from the service.”
Forget about TGV or Acela-type service all over the country unless “you’re smoking funny cigarettes” because “you’re talking tens of billions of dollars,” and the money just isn’t there. 150-250 mph trains “won’t happen in our lifetime,” but there can be “significant improvements in the utility of rail passenger service…by making incremental improvements using the existing shared track” with improvements in track, capacity, the signal system, and the speed, “getting up to 90, 100, 110 miles an hour.”
This can be done through “a rail improvement fund that can be accessed by states” similar to the agreement worked out in the Portland-Seattle corridor where “you have a willing railroad, BNSF, you have states that will fund it, we have the technology that works [the Talgo trains]…and you can actually end up with a service on that corridor for a relatively small amount of money that [would be] totally competitive with air and highway service between Portland and Seattle.
Amtrak can attract capital, as Gunn sees it, that will benefit both freight and passenger service, in terms of adding “incremental improvements of existing rights of way, adding tracks, adding passing capacity, reverse running and that sort of thing.”
Further, he sees the day when “this industry is going to have ‘positive train stop’ rammed down its throat. Ultimately there’ll be a disaster somewhere, and the result will be” the railroads will be told, “You’ve got to put in a new positive train stop signaling system.”
Gunn asked rhetorically, “Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to do that when you’ve got to do it in order to run passenger trains at higher speeds?”
Hamberger makes the point that whereas the freight railroads would be the primary source of trust fund money, “the pressure to use these funds to finance passenger rail, highway rail-crossing traffic control devices, or short-line railroad infrastructure would be overwhelming. Major freight railroads cannot afford to cross-subsidize these efforts at the expense of their own investment needs.”
Amtrak’s boat is “a leakier than theirs (the Class I railroads),” but both are in a leaky boat, said Gunn, who predicts that the Class I lines will come to this view. He based that on conversations he said he has had with industry leaders who agree “that really we should work together.”
What is also clear is that “working together” will involve a lot of negotiating. If “the devil is in the details,” many details will require many hours of negotiation.
Not everything said at the conference centered on the trust fund idea as the path to cooperation.
Eugene Skoropowski, Capitol Corridor’s managing director in Northern California, and Tom Mulligan, Union Pacific’s passenger operations director, discussed the smooth, amicable and mutually beneficial relationship they enjoy on a line that has both heavy freight and heavy passenger traffic. The thrust of their story is that “it can be done.”
UP, by the way, is taking the lead in the industry opposition to a trust fund.
In a talk titled “Freight and Passenger May be More compatible Than You Think,” Paul Lundberg of Great Western Partners, LLC, said, in answer to a question, that the best way for passenger operators to approach the freight railroads is to go to them with a proposal in hand as to what is contemplated, not just the relatively modest schedule planned for the early months, but what is contemplated for the long run. The freight carrier will then outline what is involved in expenses and what the passenger entity will have to pay.
“If you can agree [after some negotiation] on cost, you’ve got a deal,” he said.
Skoropowski’s Capitol Corridor and METRA commuter operations in Chicago were cited as examples of how “it can be done.”
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
In the latest chapter involving the Long Island Rail Road’s troubled diesels, the first of 46 DE-3 locomotives was recently shipped Norfolk Southern’s Altoona shop to fix mechanical and structural problems with the barely three-year-old fleet.
Repairs were initially scheduled to start more than a year ago, but the Paducah, Ky., repair firm, VMV Paducahbilt, contracted by the diesel’s manufacturer, went bankrupt before the equipment was shipped. Last month, the LIRR sent the first locomotive to Pennsylvania, according to Newsday of October 8.
The locomotives will receive replacement engine skids – the bracing that holds the engines in place - as well as a host of other structural and mechanical fixes, LIRR officials said. All work is under warranty by the manufacturer, Electro-Motive Division of General Motors in LaGrange, Ill.
“The one saving grace is they are still under warranty,” said Beverly Dolinsky, executive director of the Long Island Rail Road Commuters Council, a commuters’ advocacy group. “Everyone would have liked to see them up and running and be perfect, but they have had a lot of problems and the problems need to be corrected and hopefully this is going to be the fix.”
The locomotives that move the railroad’s bi-level coaches will be taken out of service three at a time, said railroad spokesman Brian Dolan. If repairs to the first locomotive pass LIRR tests, it will then take about 18 months to fix all 46 in the fleet, he said.
The LIRR purchased the custom-built fleet for $151 million. Several of the engines have had problems ranging from broken heaters in the cabs to the cracked engine skids. Some of the locomotives also have cracked yaw dampers, a shock-absorbing brace that minimizes locomotive truck hunting, and broken steps leading to the engine cabs.
“It’s unfortunate that the railroad has had to be responsible for something that was a production problem from the outset,” said Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers President Robert M. Evers.
The LIRR does not anticipate any interruptions in service while repairs are under way and emphasized that an independent metallurgical firm found that the diesels are safe to operate, Dolan said.
“The good news is there is a plan to replace the skids entirely and repair any other damage,” Dolan said. “We don’t look at it in terms of a delay. We are looking at it in three factors: One, the locomotives are safe; two, that all work is being paid by the manufacturer; and three, these locomotives will not have an impact on our operation.”
Linda McGill, an EMD spokeswoman, said the company “sees no problem with the repairs and intends to meet the schedules.”
Another commuter group, the LIRR Commuters Campaign, said it is happy the diesels will be fixed, but criticized the delay.
“The problem is everything about this entire project has been a day late and a dollar short,” said Steven Barnes, the group’s recording secretary.
“The one saving grace is they are still under warranty,” said Beverly Dolinsky, executive director of the Long Island Rail Road Commuters Council, a commuters’ advocacy group. “Everyone would have liked to see them up and running and be perfect, but they have had a lot of problems and the problems need to be corrected and hopefully this is going to be the fix.”
If they weren't under warrenty, I suspect the MTA would have sued EMD's pants off. Though, I suppose EMD is eating this for that very reason.
Wonder who's gonna pay for rebuild #2? Unless they get to the bottom of vibrational issues (And I'm willing to bet excessive vibration is the bulk of the locomotive's problems)
I am wondering if this will also cover the total rebuild of the two engines that were melted (DM30AC's #503 and #522) in a fire on the Port Jeff Branch about 2 years ago. The frames were melted in the fiasco.
I am wondering if this will also cover the total rebuild of the two engines that were melted (DM30AC's #503 and #522) in a fire on the Port Jeff Branch about 2 years ago. The frames were melted in the fiasco.
I heard about those two engines with fire damage. Was it accident related, or a problem with the engines that caused it?
GP38, it was engine related to my knowledge. Now guys like LIengineerBob mentioned in the rrnetforums that these two engines would be scrapped, I am sure that this was a flaw with the engines, and not other means.
Amazing, considering the engines are almost new. I would assume that if it was engine related that they would be replaced by the manufacturer if they have to scrap them. It's a shame the LIRR has been having so much trouble with these engines. They finally replaced their very aged diesel fleet and they get stuck with lemons. They seemed to have less trouble with the F's, MP15's and GP38-2's, and they were so much older!
I remember hearing that one of the engines ran over a metal shopping cart causing an electrical fire. I think the other fires were caused by the third-rail pickups.
The article did mention that all 46 engines are to be sent for repairs.
Yes Mike, they are DE-30 locomotives. I guess the asshole managers at the LIRR didn't know that either.
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
Italian-made subway trolleys taken off Boston’s Green Line last year after several derailments could be back on Commonwealth Avenue by Christmas after a quick fix that – if it works – could save the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority about $25 million in repairs, officials said yesterday October 15.
The Breda-built cars are intended to run on the B Line along Commonwealth Avenue starting in mid-December, but only after the state Department of Telecommunications and Energy approves the plan, according to the Boston Globe.
A T report detailing the plans for reintroducing the low-floor cars is expected to be delivered by November 1 to the department, which oversees the T.
Older model trolleys are now being used on the B Line, and would continue to be used on other Green lines.
The Breda cars were introduced in March 1999 to offer better access to riders with special needs. They were pulled from service six months later and again in July 2000 after several derailments as well as problems with the cars’ braking system.
After $1 million in trackwork intended to avoid derailments, the Breda cars were put back in service last year, only to experience more derailments. In all, seven derailments have occurred. No one has been injured.
T management mothballed the 27 Bredas in August 2001.
Im not holding my breath. I wonder which museum will end up with them after they fail again. Stevie
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
Two public transportation agencies in the San Diego, Calif., area, the San Diego Metropolitan Transit Development Board and the North County Transit District, recently approved three contracts totaling $35.6 million for a joint venture to create a regional integrated smart card fare collection system.
The largest contract, $26 million, is with Cubic Transportation Systems, a subsidiary of Cubic Corp., for delivery of a smart card-based automated fare collection system.
GFI Genfare was awarded an $8.5 million contract for delivery of 520 electronic validating fareboxes, and Booz Allen Hamilton was awarded $1.1 million for project implementation including internal customer education and external marketing support.
The new “smart card” fare technology will be created for and used on MTDB’s Metropolitan Transit System buses, NCTD’s “Breeze” buses, the San Diego Trolley, and NCTD’s Coaster commuter rail system. It will unify fare payment for all of San Diego County’s existing and new rail systems, as well as all fixed route and express buses.
The Smart Card tech. is at or shortly will be at: PATH, Wahington DC, Chicago, London, Boston ('04), LA & NYC (probably).
Not to mention Hong Kong, which calls it the Octopus Card.
When first introduced some four(?) years ago it was fairly limited, restricted to the MTR (the subway) and the KCR (commuter rail). In fact it replaced the old magnetic technology Common Stored Value ticket that worked very similarly to the MetroCard.
Two years ago, when I was last in Hong Kong, it had spread to be usable on most all transit operations (Bus, Ferry, even the Peak Tram) irrespective of operator. It could also be used in payphones.
Transit in Hong Kong has always been charged by distance, which makes the situation a little different to New York. On MTR and KCR the card registers where you entered the system, but doesn't deduct the fare until you exit. Buses tend to have per-route flat fares, which are deducted on entry.
The best bit is that you never need to take your Octopus Card out of your wallet; just waving the wallet (or the pocket containing it) near a target on the barrier is sufficient for it to register.
I currently have three MetroCards in my wallet: the card I usually use with a $7.50 balance, a reserve card with a $3.00 balance, and one unactivated Fun Pass. If MetroCards are replaced with smart cards, how do I make sure my fare is deducted from the card I want?
Easy. You just have one card in your wallet. It works on NYCT, PATH, LIRR, MRCR, SEPTA, MTA Maryland, WMATA. You refill it at a machine similar to a current WMATA Add-Fare machine. The reader technology is similiar to E-Z Pass transponder readers.
All the details aren't fully worked out yet, but smart cards are coming.
So that means you have a microwave transmitter pressed up against your body (in your wallet) 15 hours a day. I guess I personally am about 99% confident that's not a health hazard, but wait till the Straphangers get ahold of this one.
So that means you have a microwave transmitter pressed up against your body (in your wallet) 15 hours a day.
Do SmartCards have an onboard battery or other power source then?.
I'd always assumed they were powered up by an inductive field from the reader. If that is the case, then provided you don't spend your 15 hours standing next to barrier, you won't have an active transmitter in your wallet.
"Do SmartCards have an onboard battery or other power source then?.
I'd always assumed they were powered up by an inductive field from the reader."
Good question. You may be right. I have been told that EZPasses have a transmitter, and someone said it's just like EZPass.
Also, if you don't have to pass it through a reader but can just keep it in your wallet as you pass through the turnstile, the reader would need a pretty strong electromagnetic field, which would probably fry pacemakers.
But I'm just guessing here.
Not so easy, I'm afraid. There are valid reasons for passengers to be carrying cards that they don't want to use each and every time they enter the system.
"There are valid reasons for passengers to be carrying cards that they don't want to use each and every time they enter the system."
Those passengers could put their cards in metal mesh shields (distributed for free by the transit agency) and pull out the card that they want to have read.
My wallet is crowded already with its thin MetroCards. Now you want me to replace those MetroCards with thicker smart cards wrapped in foil?
Remind me, how is this better than today's MetroCard system?
I'm not saying that you're a Luddite.
The smart card system would, if fully adopted, totally replace the MetroCard.
I'm not sure the system could be fully implemented in the New York Subway/Bus systems. It was first proposed by WMATA, which has it's distance based farecard system, and is value based as well. The Maryland MTA is interested and I'm not sure how it would be used here, as both Weekly and Monthly passes (all flash, only the Light Rail fare machine sold version isn't magnetly coded for the Subway faregates) and all give unlimited riding in the system.
I'll leave this one for the more technically inclined.
All the details aren't fully worked out yet, but smart cards are coming.
It'll be a hard sell in technologically-behind-the-curve New York, where as often noted here before many people still insist on using tokens.
You would still carry a magnetic reserve card.
As for the fun pass, I once proposed on this board that there should be a card that automatically becomes unlimited once you've spent a certain amount of money. So if you make a third ride in one day, you would be charged $1.40 and not be charged again that day.
Fat chance of that happening.
You would still carry a magnetic reserve card.
If magnetic cards are still sold and accepted, I'll be perfectly happy.
As for the fun pass, I once proposed on this board that there should be a card that automatically becomes unlimited once you've spent a certain amount of money. So if you make a third ride in one day, you would be charged $1.40 and not be charged again that day.
I think I responded to you in that thread. It would be nice, but the TA probably makes a bit of money off people who overspend either due to a change of plans or out of habit. But it would be convenient.
It is unlikely that proximity cards will become the only method of entry since they're too expensive to be disposable. In other cities with proximity cards one must submit a deposit to get a card, and then get it back when the card is returned.
Like EZ-Pass.
I think I responded to you in that thread
Yes you did:
Metrocard Platinum
WARNING: RESSURECTED THREAD ABOVE
Also read this, which I posted soon after:
Metrocard Iridium
WHAT A BLEAK, HORRIBLE FUTURE WE LIVE IN!
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
U.S. Plastic Lumber Corp. reported October 16 its Engineered Products group has signed a contract to supply an additional 10,000 recycled composite railroad ties (trademarked DuraTie®), to the Chicago Transit Authority.
CTA has been a long time proponent of composite crossties and has purchased several thousand railroad ties from USPL in the past, the Florida company stated in a press release.
USPL’s COO, Michael McCann, said, “It shows that we have met CTA’s expectations of offering a viable replacement to traditional railroad ties, such as wood, steel or concrete. Our composite railroad ties have a life expectancy of two to three times longer than wood.”
Their ties are made of recycled plastic and fiberglass.
The American Railway Engineering and Maintenance-of-Way Assn. is developing specifications for plastic composite railroad ties.
Wood ties are replaced in the U.S. at about 10-15 million annually. USPL’s railroad ties are non-conductive, and do not absorb water, like wooden ties, and help eliminate the effects of stray-current corrosion of track hardware in electrified mass transit systems, while significantly extending the life of the railroad ties.
USPL is online at http://www.usplasticlumber.com.
This may not be of much interest to anyone, but it was stated at the last IRM Board Meeting that recent requests to various tie manufacturers for donations of ties met with general silence - except in one case, a manufacturer of recycled "plastic" ties (I don't know whether or not it is US Plastic Lumber Corp). They might be willing to donate several hundred plastic ties to IRM, which would be nice, not to mention interesting. It was pointed out that in addition to using them in "normal" tie replacement projects, we should probably also make up an outdoor display utilizing the ties - like the handcar display behind the depot, which uses a short stretch of concrete-tie track as an interpretive device.
Frank Hicks
The good news about plastic ties is that, at least from a distance,
they look like wood ties. I'm not sure how much historical
authenticity matters for IRM's mainline. In the case of the
Branford Electric Railway, there is occasional friction since
the line is a national historic district and is in fact a preserved
line. So, we like to preserve the general nature of the line,
i.e. wood ties, wood poles, wood trestles, typical track and
overhead hardware. But, we aren't pretending that the line is
a historic artifact. We've changed track layout, trestle alignment,
gone between bracket arm and span wire construction in parts, added
signals, etc.
IRM on the other hand built a new railway on the abandoned right-of-
way of a typical interurban line. Still, I doubt concrete ties
and pandrol clips would fly.
Funky looking platic wood ties don't rot or leach chemicals...bonus points. I'm hunting down Redbirds but it is a lost cause...asbestos hazards and abatement. CI Peter
You're right about IRM not being overly concerned about the historic fabric of our line. Various parts are catenary and normal overhead, we've got several completely different types of signals in use, and there are other oddities. I think the idea is that if we use these plastic ties out around signal 250 (in the middle of nowhere between Karstens and Seeman Road), no one will notice. Concrete ties, on the other hand, would look pretty weird under a steam engine...
Frank Hicks
I'm all for it. While authentic tie are nice, I don't recall a hell of a lot of cobble stone streets with tracks imbedded with grand unions..... and horse drawn carts and wagons with hot steaming praire muffins.
recycled plastic covers many positive needs.
avid
I like the plastic boardwalk I saw down in Belmar. There are alsopark benches you can find here in the city that use this now. Much nicer with no splinters.
The site had no pictures of the ties. I wonder if they're shaped like the wood or like the concrete (with the dpression in the middle. Are they gray?
The TA is testing concrete near Sheepshead Bay, so they should test the plastic on an el (where concrete would be too heavy and too brittle).
What are the riding qualities of these composite ties? I've always thought that wood is superior to concrete, so where do these fit into the mix? Frankly, it sounds like a win-win situation for everyone, particularly the environment.
I've heard the opposite - that concrete is superior to wood, and that is why concrete ties are used all over the Northeast Corridor.
At any rate, these plastic ties sound interesting.
In Philadelphia, there is no plastic recycling on a routine basis. I have written to SEPTA and to the Sierra Club's local chapter to see if there is any interest in SEPTA's helping to generate a small local market for recycled plastic.
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
The Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Ry. last week observed its grand opening of a new national model for freight logistics services, called BNSF Logistics Park – Chicago.
The facility has its own switching yard, which will enable BNSF to build trains faster and to easily combine intermodal and automotive trains to western markets.
The multi-modal facility is designed to integrate direct rail, truck, intermodal and transload services with distribution and warehousing in one location. Located next to BNSF’s rail routes between Chicago and the West Coast and adjacent to an expanded interstate highway system, BNSF shipping center is expected to help relieve both the region’s and the nation’s freight congestion issues by providing a safe and environmentally friendly solution.
“BNSF Logistics Park – Chicago is a unique opportunity for shippers, particularly international customers, to integrate logistics and service improvements at a single location,” said BNSF’s CEO Matthew K. Rose.
“This facility, and the adjacent CenterPoint Intermodal Center development, are establishing a new logistics standard to meet the forecasted growth in intermodal and automotive traffic for the next 20 years,” Rose said.
The Park will enable shippers to take advantage of projected distribution center and warehouse growth southwest of Chicago using part or a combination of the intermodal, automotive or multi-commodity transload facility.
In addition to its 621-acre facility, BNSF has options on more than 200 additional acres as the focal point of CenterPoint Properties’ 2,200-acre intermodal, distribution center and warehouse development in Chicago’s southwest suburbs.
“It has taken over seven years, negotiations with over 50 governmental agencies, and more than $250 million, to make the largest multi-modal industrial park in the Midwest a reality. With BNSF Logistics Park now open, an enterprise zone in place and unsurpassed infrastructure, CenterPoint Intermodal Center is now – by far – the largest, most efficient and ultimately lowest cost distribution location in the Midwest,” said Mike Mullen, COO of CenterPoint Properties.
The intermodal facility is serving initially Maersk Sealand and their container traffic moving from ports in Southern California, Oakland and the Pacific Northwest, and is expected to enable BNSF to consolidate Chicago-area international distribution for shippers at a single location regardless of its West Coast port origination.
With the operation of the intermodal facility at BNSF Logistics Park – Chicago, “There will be a significant reduction in the number of local highway moves now required to reposition container chassis and service multiple international intermodal locations in the Chicago area,” said Fritz Draper, BNSF vice president for business unit operations and support.
The intermodal facility will increase BNSF’s Chicago intermodal lift capacity by 400,000 lifts to nearly 3 million annual lifts, with capacity expansion possible for another 800,000 annual lifts.
The automotive facility at BNSF’s new Logistics Park, which opened in early September, is the first-of-a-kind “Gateway Hub” for BNSF dedicated to building automotive trains destined to all western markets. This “Gateway Hub” allows automotive shippers “to successfully employ fast-to-market strategies,” a press release stated. Among the shippers already using the automotive facility are American Honda Motor Co., American Isuzu Motors; American Suzuki Motor; Ford Motor Co.-UPS Logistics; Hyundai Motor America; KIA Motors America; Mitsubishi Motor Sales; Nissan North America, and Subaru of America.
From Last week's Destination Freedom at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df10212002.shtml
The senior civil servant who pushed through rail privatization admits in a forthcoming television program he knew that the whole idea was flawed from the start, according to the U.K.’s Independent of October 20.
Sir Patrick Brown, the permanent secretary at the Department of Transport in the early 1990s, says in a BBC4 program, “Witness to History: Privatizing the Railways,” that it was the Treasury’s insistence that resulted in the separation of the infrastructure and the operations. This split has not only led to the recent expensive failure of the infrastructure company, Railtrack, but has also been the root cause of several fatal train disasters since privatization.
Brown says that the split had become a “totem” which was being pushed by the Treasury and he was not in a position to change it.
The admission has not stopped him benefiting from the flawed privatization, however. Last week he became part-time, non-executive chairman of the Go Ahead group, which has three rail franchises, at an annual salary of over £60,000.
The structure of the railways for privatization, with a separate Railtrack, had been developed by the Treasury before the 1992 election in order to encourage competition between different train operators.
The idea was that the 25 operators created at privatization would bid against each other to run lucrative services because there would be “open access” to the tracks, but the plan proved to be impracticable from the outset.
Soon after the 1992 general election, John MacGregor, then Secretary of State for Transport, had to abandon the concept of open access when he realized that it would not be possible to franchise out the train operations if rival companies could then “cherry-pick” profitable services.
Yet Brown and his colleagues at the Department of Transport kept pushing through the model, which involved splitting up British Rail, even though they realized that there was no good reason for doing so.
He says in the program: “The fact that to do the franchising successfully would mean that we would have to essentially ditch competition didn’t surprise me at all.
”I don’t think any of us in the Department of Transport thought that open access as described could have any part in the privatization, but you couldn’t say so.”
He adds that it was Treasury, which insisted on the model.
“Because the Treasury were very keen on it, it was impossible to admit openly what later became obvious and you knew to be the truth earlier, which was that open access was impossible.”
John Welsby, chairman of British Rail in its dying days before privatization, says in the program, “All the operational and managerial problems that derived from splitting off the infrastructure from the operations were being incurred for no benefit.”
Brown responds that ministers refused to consider changing the scheme at that late stage.
“At this point you’ve got a Bill in front of Parliament, you’re on the way.”
The lack of coordination in the industry not only resulted in an increase in delays, but also led to soaring costs which have made investment in the network much more expensive than under British Rail.
Railtrack, which made losses of £534 million between 2000 and 2001, was put into administration (similar to a U.S. bankruptcy proceeding) last October after running out of money and was replaced earlier this month with the not-for-profit Network Rail.
Soon after the 1992 general election, John MacGregor, then Secretary of State for Transport, had to abandon the concept of open access ...
It isn't strictly true that open access was abandoned.
Besides the 20-odd franchised passenger train operators, there is at least one open-access passenger train operator (Hull Trains), plus some train services run under open-access rules by the franchised operators. Taken together they probably form a tiny proportion of train or passenger miles, but they do exist.
And I think all freight services are essentially run under the open access rules. Certainly there are now several 'new' freight operators snapping at the heels of the EWS (English, Welsh & Scottish) operation that was created by Wisconsin Central's buyout of most of the old British Rail freight operations.
This morning when i got off the lirr at atlantic avenue the q's were bypassing atlantic, so i took an R train to dekalb and wait for a Q train there.
finally, after about 20 minutes, a Q train finally pulls in, and it stops at the station, does not open doors, then starts pulling out of the station.
next thing i see are more cars coming off the back of the train as it emerged from the tunnel and after about 8 more cars pulled in, the train stopped and opened doors.
I dont know about you, but ive never seen a 16 car train before
A number of years ao, my brand new R68 pushed a non GOH'ed consist of R40 slants from the hill between Atlantic and 7th Ave's. to Parkside Ave. middle. Turns out the slant had 8 dead motors and 2 live ones!
Wouldn't you have a problems with the signals?
Signals don't care how long the train is.
So the arm wouldn't come up after the first 600 feet pass? Time to go back to Signals 101 on this site.
The arm comes up as soon as the train clears the previous block.
>>Time to go back to Signals 101 on this site
Yes, you should >G<. The signal goes red when the IJ is passed but the arm won't come up until the entire block is empty.
Right. The arm doesn't come up after the first 600' pass.
Nothing like being corrected by someone who doesn't do this for a living.
Now that's weird. Today, I saw something funny. I was riding an R32 F to school this morning, and at least 7 out of 10 cars, the rollsigns had R train destinations and I was like WTF LOL. Looked like they didn't roll to F train destinations in time.
R32 3824 (F)
That does seem funny that 7 cars out of a 10 car train had their destination signs set incorrectly. I guess that the T/O was in a hurry to get his train moving.
#3 West End Jeff
Generally that's handled these days by the platform folks - motorpeople WOULD check each car for put-ins out of the yard once they woke up the compressors or needed to change ends and had the time to do so. It's different though out on the road. Comes down to a choice -do you want the correct rollsigns or would you prefer air for braking? :)
I certainly would prefer air for braking over correctly set roll signs.
You can always fix the rollsigns. However, if a train doesn't stop because the airbrakes fail would be a different matter altogether.
#3 West End Jeff
"Prioritization" is an important feature in civil service. You often spend the better part of your docudroid and adminiswig day "prioritizing." :)
I hear that there was an el on Third Avenue in the Bronx right up until the 1970's or so. There was even remenants of an el coming off the Jerome el right up until that time also. However, my question is what was the TA's motive on discontinuing these lines which at this point could have made use today.
Well the el off the Jerome Avenue line went to the Polo Grounds stop. When the Giants abandoned the Polo Grounds, nobody took it so it was abandoned.
The Third Avenue El......well I don't know the Bronx real well...wasn't it very close to existing lines and had very low ridership. So as with much else, the answer is money.
The Third Avenue El Bronx portion wasn't all THAT close to other lines, but because of speed restrictions and plenty of stops (and of course it not going DIRECTLY into Manhattan) it did suffer from low ridership on its 5 car trains. I'd ride it as often as was practical myself, but rarely in the morning.
It was killed because of low ridership, a serious lack of money at the time and the need to rebuild most of the structure if it was to last much longer. Instead, Bronx got a pathetic bus line to replace it though we WERE promised a second avenue subway line and an underground replacement for the third avenue el as part of it. And lemmings that we were, we voted for that bond issue four times before we got wise. :)
["Well the el off the Jerome Avenue line went to the Polo Grounds stop. When the Giants abandoned the Polo Grounds, nobody took it so it was abandoned."]
Just a little more info on the Polo Grounds Shuttle that ran between the Jerome Av Line and the Polo Grounds. It was part of the Ninth Av El which ceased operations in 1940 and ran as a shuttle until the Giants moved in 1958. Probably a bigger reason than the Giants moving to abandon the El was the fact that the Putnam Division of the NY Central ceased operations in '57. Its terminal was right along the shuttle and probably was where most of the shuttle's ridership came from. I doubt that they would keep the shuttle running 24-7 just because of the Giant games. Besides, the "D" Train pretty much duplicated the shuttle's route, and people from the Jerome Av Line can change at 161th Street for the "D" to the Polo Grounds.
By the way, just for point of information, the Mets played their first 2 seasons in the Polo Grounds in the early 60's prior to the completion of Shea. The first baseball game I ever went to was a Met game there during its first season.
Take a virtual walking tour of the Polo Grounds shuttle.
An epilogue to this story - you can no longer walk the tunnel. It was completely sealed in 2001.
--Mark
I saw pics of an old stairway at 155 St Manhattan. Is there anything at the top of the stairway? An old structure of the IRT? Or did something take over?
It probably leads to the 155th Street viaduct.
The stairway in the picture has similar ironwork as the one from the 155th St viaduct had, but that's not the same one. The stairway from the 155th St viaduct used to lead down to the street, and had an intermediary landing for the 9th Ave El. The full stairway was removed as part of the viaduct's rehabilitation project. I made that same mistake when I gave a "tour" of the Polo Grounds shuttle and environs back in 2000.
These are pictures of the actual stairway.
(pg stair02.jpg) Stairs to 9th Avenue El at Macombs Dam Bridge. Photo by Mark S. Feinman, 12/19/1999. (37k)
(pg stair03.jpg) Stairs to 9th Avenue El at Macombs Dam Bridge. Photo by Timothy Todd, 1998. (291k)
(pg stair04.jpg) Stairs to 9th Avenue El at Macombs Dam Bridge. Photo by Timothy Todd, 1998. (212k)
(pg stair05.jpg) Stairs to 9th Avenue El at Macombs Dam Bridge. Photo by Timothy Todd, 1998. (260k)
--Mark
I'm not sure what you're saying. What mistake did I make? That stairway leads (or led) down from the viaduct. On July 11, 2002, I took the 3 train to the last stop, walked six blocks north, and took that picture at the southwest corner of 155th and 7th, across from the Macombs Dam Bridge.
What I'd like to know is what is at the top of the stairs? Is it 155 Street? Is it old structure from the 9th Ave El? Is there anything?
I'm standing behind the camera at the corner of 155th and 7th, across the street from the Macombs Dam Bridge.
There is an existing staircase with the same ironwork as the one that used to go down to the 9th Ave El. This staircase no longer exists. The staircase in the picture you took is not the staircase that served the El (and the sidewalk below). But it *looks* like it. That's what I meant by "mistake".
--Mark
So at the top of the stairway is not a remain of the 9th Ave El? When I looked at the pictures, it looked like the remains of the platform and canapy is still there.
Oy - I'm getting a headache!
The correct response should have read:
There is an existing staircase with the same ironwork as the one that used to go down to the 9th Ave El. The staircase that used to serve the 9th Ave El no longer exists. The staircase in the picture you took is not the same staircase that served the El (and the sidewalk below). But it *looks* like it. That's what I meant by "mistake".
--Mark
Oy - I'm getting a headache!
I'm sorry to cause you more pain, but.....
The staircase in the picture you took is not the same staircase that served the El (and the sidewalk below). But it *looks* like it.
What was the purpose of the stairway that was actually in David's photo?
Someone probably salvaged a portion of the
9th Avenue staircase OR the 155st staircase
and placed it as part of the handrails on the
staircase in the aforementioned image...
Someone probably salvaged a portion of the
9th Avenue staircase OR the 155st staircase
and placed it as part of the handrails on the
staircase in the aforementioned image...
Ya see, that pic has about three different
side handrail "types" before it hits ground...
Ah, thanks. I had no idea if that staircase served the el -- all I know is it looked neat so I pulled out the camera. Thanks for clarifying.
In response to Chris: the staircase connects the upper (viaduct) and lower levels of 155th Street. The staircase is currently closed -- but so is the lower level. If nothing else, that staircase would be a useful way to get from the Macombs Dam Bridge to the D train at 155th -- instead, it's a long walk to Edgecombe, where the viaduct ends, and from there the C is closer than the D. (Or just walk the six blocks to the 3.)
Hmmm...another thing to check out when I get to that area one day. It really got my interest...I love old stuff like that. What a great old railing!
Then you'll like this, just two blocks south:
I often spend a few hours or most of a Sunday doing a combination of subway riding and urban exploring. It seems like I'm not the only one here with those hobbies, and I see no need to do them on my own. I'm thinking of starting up a Yahoo group (or similar forum) to facilitate group outings of this sort. Would there be any interest in such a forum?
I'm sure there would be people there.
You do take the greatest pictures.
Not a bad idea, I like that kind of stuff. Aside from this site, one of my other favorite sites is forgotten-ny.com. Whenever I walk around the city, or even drive in my car, I look for stuff like that. I like old signs, old lampposts, etc. That's why I like old stations so much, or seeing abandoned areas, or the old mosaics resurface on Broadway, etc. Or about 5 years ago or so when they tore a building down in Times Square and an old "Carraiges" sign was showing for the first time since the 1920's. Unfortunately though, I never got a photo of it.
You'd be surprised how a simple streetsign or lamppost can make for a real artsy photo. I like taking photos of trains, but it's not always the actual train that is the only great photos. Some of my favorite shots are just of a railroad crossing (with just the gates up), or an old railroad bridge, even if the tracks are empty, etc. One great shot I have is from when I was in Del Mar, California. I took it from the front of the car. It was a simple railroad crossing as I was crossing it, in the distance is the Pacific Ocean with the waves breaking in front of me, framed by the RR crossing gates at an angle, and other cars passing it also. Of course a train would look great with that also, and I took many of them also.
I'm thinking of starting up a Yahoo group (or similar forum) to facilitate group outings of this sort. Would there be any interest in such a forum?
Sign me up!
There is also another staircase like it (a smaller one) that can be seen from the Harlem River Drive that also connects to the viaduct. At that point, the viaduct is closer to the street. I am not sure exactly what street it leads down to.
--Mark
Correction: My beloved NY Mets played there in their first two seasons: 1962 & 1963. Their combined win percentage for the two seasons was about .300.
The 3rd Ave El ran in the Bronx until 1975. The remains of the El on the Jerome line north of 161 St is the last remaining piece of the 9th Ave El from Manhattan. That was torn down after 1958.
The 3rd Ave was torn down because the structure wasn't too sturdy anymore. The 9th Ave was town down during the 1940's because it was REPLACED by the 8th Ave Subway. A section was retained from 155 St Manhattan near the former Polo Grounds to 167 St Bronx just north of Yankee Stadium until 1958.
The 3rd Ave El was also torn down in anticipation of the new second avenue subway running next to the ROW today's MNRR New Haven division. This would have duplicated the El's route. Similarly, the Jamaica El was demolished east of Queens Blvd, then 121st St before the Archer Avenune line was completely built ... neither replacement line was built as planned.
--Mark
Sad, isn't it?
The 3rd Ave. line ran in the Bronx until March of 1973, to be exact.
The 3rd Ave El ran in the Bronx until 1975. The remains of the El on the Jerome line north of 161 St is the last remaining piece of the 9th Ave El from Manhattan. That was torn down after 1958.
The last full day of service for the Third Avenue El in The Bronx was Saturday, April 28,1973 although the last northbound train did not leave 149 Street until 12:06AM on Sunday, April 29,1973.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What killed the Bronx Third Ave el was the termination of service and razing of the Manhattan section of the Third Ave el.
It took years and died a slow death. The importance of a one seat ride to midtown Manhattan was replaced by a two seat ride (transfer at 149th and Third). That in itself was a turnoff to passengers. The two seat ride to Manhattan also killed the NYW & B railway.
Add to this the el and stations suffered from deferred maintenance. With the plummeting ridership and a huge price tag for reurbishing the line, it was decided to just put the line out of it's misery and replace it with a miserable bus.
Brooklyn's Myrtle Ave el suffered a similar fate. Once terminating at Park Row Manhattan, the 1944 decision to cut the line back to Bridge St. was the cause for a slow death. Bridge St. later was named Bridge-Jay Sts. Just like Third Ave, the condition of the line and outdated rolling stock eventually killed the line, also replaced by a bus .
Bill "Newkirk"
For what it's worth; I was around long enough to ride on the Myrtle and on Third Ave. Bronx. The Q cars and the Low V's. Two great all time subway (el) memories for me.
>>For what it's worth; I was around long enough to ride on the Myrtle and on Third Ave.<<
Meet too !...There was something about riding the Q Types on a warm (not hot) summer day with the lower window sash open 5 inches from the bottom. Back then, I didn't know the heritage of those cars and that they used to be open end platform gate cars.
The Low-Vs and '39 WF cars on the 3rd Ave were nice too. Although a Brooklyn boy who occasionally ventured up to the Bronx to explore strange territory, I was fascinated with the partially missing express track on most of the line.
Bill "Newkirk"
The only time I ever rode a Low V was on the Bronx Third Ave. El around 1968 or 1969. One of my five greatest subway memories were those wonderful rides on trains which at that time were iron dinosaurs. The Low V.
I understand that a lot of the infrastructure, esp with regard to drainage, is pretty screwed up in our stations. Its just a such a shame to me, to see the nice, shiny, brand new white wall tiles at Atlantic Ave (Q) already starting to show some of that slimey brown stuff that eventually covers the walls. I don't understand though.. Shouldn't they have first fixed whatever leaks caused the station to look the way it did before fixing it up? Is that just an impossible task?
It seems that in a few months, the new tiles will barely even be noticeable. I had high hopes for that station!
Its funny to see this message. I just noticed this morning that this was happening at Atlantic. This station is deep underground and stopping the water from seeping is next to impossible.
That's what I figured. Maybe they should've made the tiles brown? ;-)
Daily News story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/30648p-29067c.html
Short-term misery will ultimately lead to an ADA-compliant station with better transfers between the E,V and 6.
These people are nuts. How do they expect the work to be done without some inconvenience while the work is being done? People love to complain. They complain when the station looks like garbage, and then complain when they are trying to do something about it.
If they didn't, it wouldn't be New York.
I could see the Devil offering a pact with someone: "You will live in a New York City where there is no NIBY, where people don't grumble and whine, and only moan when it's related to pleasure, all the time.
In return for your soul."
How about these people take the R instead, and use 60th street for the Lex if they can't stand 53rd st.
Or better yet transfer between the 6 and R F at Lex/63rd -53rd. That simple! There are plenty of rooms at the station passage.
And they will complain when it's done !!!
I'LL be the first one to complain if they put up tile and the color is wrong. Whatever they put up it should contain a red (or some shade thereof) tile band. I like the idea of one like York Street, where it's only one tile high and has a border with the caption embedded in it. A nice shade of crimson (like they have at 23-Ely over the closed stairwell near the "G" exit) would go good.
wayne
>>>"This is an accident waiting to happen,"<<<
Could there be someone will intentionally cause an him or herself an serious injuries and slap the MTA with and million $$$ LAWSUIT just like the previous lawsuit case where a missy walked her into the subway tunnel and stuck by an oncoming train walked away with 9 million MTA $$$ few months ago. Let see, if I remembered the exact last time, I've read or heard about that case.
Took 20:42 Huntington, change at Jamaica for Far Rock on Friday night.
M-7 on westbound express track between Jay and Kew Garden. I didn't
realize there was only one door per pod instead of two like on M-1 and
M-3.
I didn't realize there was only one door per pod instead of two like on M-1 and M-3.
Yeah, the doors are a bit more like the diesel bi-level's doors.
I think people may be less inclined to hold single leaf doors, one can hope.
"only one door per pod"
Where did you get the term "pod"? Opening or portal are likely the appropriate terms.
Where did you get the term "pod"?
Methinks he's a sci-fi buff... Anon_e_mouse Jr. uses that term as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that mono-pod vs bi-pod ?
Remember tri-pod are not allowed on the subway.
Here is an article about the construction at Lex and 53rd.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/30648p-29067c.html
God, these riders can't make up their minds. They're scared out of their minds for themselves, but they don't follow the TA's orders of going where they're supposed to.
MAKE UP YOUR MINDS, PEOPLE!!!
Besides, all this construction is all for the greater good. Namely, a better looking station.
it goes to show yet again that people,when they're in a subway station,their nothing more than a bunch of brainless buffoon's.Temper's flare? People complain? Damnit,they should just shut up and do what they're supposed to do and that's the end it of that but NOOOOO!! They JUST HAVE to make a scene out of every little thing.
it goes to show yet again that people,when they're in a subway station,their nothing more than a bunch of brainless buffoon's.Temper's flare? People complain? Damnit,they should just shut up and do what they're supposed to do or what they're told to do and that's the end of that but NOOOOO!! They JUST HAVE to make a scene out of every little thing.
it goes to show yet again that people,when they're in a subway station,their nothing more than a bunch of brainless buffoon's.Temper's flare? People complain? Damnit,they should just shut up and do what they're supposed to do or what they're told to do and that's the end of that but NOOOOO!! They JUST HAVE to make a scene out of every little thing.
Whoa!
I see your point V Train, but be careful with your triple postings!
I'm glad you agree with me.
And a safer, ADA-compliant one.
Its about time that ugly station is getting renovated. Currently, its painted in cheap white paint, it's very hot and I could go on and on biut I'll stop here.
In the case of the TA, another example of damned if they do and damned if they don't.
From the Waterloo Canada "The Record" 19 Oct 2002.
".....John Leung, who travels to university classes on a train every day, sees them as more sociable. "When you ride in a car, it's so impersonal," says Leung. "There's some really interesting people you meet on a train."
Leung is so enamoured with rail transit that he's placed a station-by-station review of the Calgary train system on the Internet....."
"...To review light rail in Canada, go to www.nycsubway.org and click on Canada...."
Nice plug John. Is that photo really you behind those "Foster Grants".
Full article:
http://www.therecord.com/news/special/grandvision/news_special_grandvision_021019102437.html
Tomorrow morning they're packing up our computers and Wednesday my new tenure working in downtown Brooklyn debuts. We probably won't be fully operational until late this week or early next week. So let us flash back to day I first set foot in this building, November 13, 1984. (Wavy screen dissolve; harp music; cue vintage Prince song on soundtrack; people with large hair seen break-dancing in background. Ad-libbed jokes about Michael Jackson, Trivial Pursuit and "Where's the Beef?" heard.)
No Internet, faxes, cell phones, E-Z Pass, CDs, DVDs, DNA, TiVo or SUVs.(Personally, the last two rank way below last in importance!) Soup was something you ate to get warm, and came in pea, tomato or chicken noodle. Coffee was something you drank to wake you up and came caf or decaf. Muffins were something you ate to wash down the coffee, or took out of a plastic wrapper to put in the toaster. Wraps were what you put around your head in the winter. We've elected three Presidents (OK, maybe two), two Mayors and one Governor. From an agency standpoint, there've been too many Chancellors to count.
In terms of transit and my daily commute, when I started there were still some WF R33/36s that were graffiti-on-white on the outside and orange and beige on the inside. By June 1985, everything would be red. All E and F trains would be nothing but R46s up until the end of 1990- except for one week in late 1987 when R68s ran on the F. There were still R10s on the GG through spring '85. From one window I can see the Astoria trains going through the portal. At first, the RR was made up of 27/30s, 32s and 42s. Slants began to appear when Manny B construction had the 'Brooklyn B' (pre-cursor to today's W) running through 60th Street to Astoria to supplement the RR- later R. R68s appeared when the N and R's Queens terminals were switched.
As noted above, some locals were still indicated by double letters. R32s, 38s and half the Slants were still without A/C. Repainted, graffitied R10s through 30s still rode the B Division. The IRT was still defined by un-A/C 14s through 22s. Only the 4 had new stainless steel equipment, followed in quick succession by the 1, 6 and 3. The 2, 5 and 7 would get their new equipment 17 or so years later. Redbirds now facing their demise would only take on their 'classic' overhauled Redbird appearance beginning in 1986. Maybe you'd hear something resembling a human voice announcing something resembling the name of the station over the PA when pulling in; and "Watchdaclozingdaws" before pulling out. Jamaica only had one subway line. Roosevelt Island had none.
LIRR's Ronkonkoma branch wasn't electrified yet. PATH still ran some of its 1958 cars, at least in rush hour. All NJT Morris & Essex trains ran only to Hoboken. The upper Jersey City waterfront was an abandoned industrial wasteland. The Manhattan side of the lower Hudson waterfront was first being developed. GM Fishbowls shared the streets with RTS and, on the privates, Grumman Flxibles. Artics were only seen on that strange Westchester County bus system. Light rail was strictly for other faraway cities. If you lived far away from the subway, you'd have to get double the amount of tokens. If you had to get off the subway to use the bathroom or eat, it would cost you another fare.
Unfortunately, I did witness the horrible events that took place one year, one month and 17 days ago live from the window nearest my desk. Fortunately, the air-conditioning kept the windows shut which spared us from the sounds and smells that came along with those images.
I was neither a husband nor a father- but had a bit more on the top and a whole lot less around the middle.
A whole new era starts, which from what I'm told will entail new rules and policies. THAT never sounds good. I've been here 18 years. In another 22, I can retire.
"and half the Slants were still without A/C"
The last fourth of the R40 were the redesigned ones. So that makes it 300 slant 40's. Our of 300, only 100 had AC. So should it be "two thirds of the slants were still without A/C"?
Good luck on your new location!
> November 13, 1984.. No Internet, faxes, cell phones, E-Z Pass,
> CDs, DVDs, DNA, TiVo or SUVs.
Come on now it wasn't that bad.
The internet surely existed. Wasn't commercialized yet but it was there. SMTP introduced in 1981, DNS in 1982.
Faxes. Concept since 1840s. CCITT Group 3 spec adopted 1980
Cell phones. Concept 1940s. First prototype 1977 (Bell Labs), first modern commercial system 1982 (Ameritech, Chicago)
EZ-Pass. Close. The EZPass project began in 1987 with first deployment in 1993(?). I found a reference to a bridge in California which had an electronic toll collection transponder system in 1985.
CD - introduced in Japan 1982, America 1983
DVD - can't argue with that but the Laser Disc was introduced by Pioneer for home use in 1980
DNA - Watson & Crick published in 1953
Tivo.. Ok, ya got me, although I have to argue with your statement that it ranks way below last. Tivo is the best thing since .. oxygen.
SUVs... we didn't call them that but they've been around.
:-)
Dave
FAX: I worked in an office at the corner of Fifth Ave and W35th st.
In 1984 they were talking about a new invention called "ZAP Mail"
I am not sure what it is but it pre-dated FAX and it was a way to send messages without the post office or a private courier.
Remember those courriers on bicycles all over mid-town? 1984 the good ole days.
Now let me take my R-10 on the C back to the present day.
1981 - You could spindle your original onto a fast-spinning drum, and a stylus would transmit the image to a drum at the other end. And a couple years later I was crawling under the table in Ag Engineering, Mississippi State, the furthest point east of the Mississippi from any urban public transit, hard linking to the Internet. I've come further than the technology.
Sometime back then or before (possibly the 70's IIRC) there was this radio jingle "I put a contract in a Quip, in a Quip here... and in 2 seconds; the contrac come out there". I wondered how that was possible. I had never thought of a "telecopier" (this must have been an early fax)
We were still using punch cards for computer data at S&S Corrugated back in 1984. And some of the corrugating machines used paper tape to run them.
wayne
FAX: I worked in an office at the corner of Fifth Ave and W35th st.
In 1984 they were talking about a new invention called "ZAP Mail"
I am not sure what it is but it pre-dated FAX and it was a way to send messages without the post office or a private courier.
ZAP Mail was a short-lived offering from Federal Express dating back to the early 1980's. From what I can recall, a courier picked up your message and brought it to the nearest FedEx facility. At that facility, it was transmitted over phone lines, i.e. faxed, to the FedEx facility nearest the destination, from which a courier brought it to the recipient.
The spread of fax machines in the mid-1980's killed off ZAP Mail after just a couple of years.
We in the weather biz were using faxes in the mid 70's ("Quip" was the manufacturer; a stylus etched on special receiving paper; the signal was analog).
My first Chevy Blazer was an '83, which I got in late '82.
And that's SUV's and Weather Together.
IIRC - the spelling was "QWIP" (a forerunner of the lousy spelling that is supposed to be "cool" today). The company was a subsidiary of EXXON.
Also if you were sending something, the personal on the other end had to have a QWIP brand, unlike the fax machines of today. You would call the person, tell them you're sending a document of a certain length. They had to acknowledge that they had the paper on the drum, set their receiver in the machine and press a button. When you heard the sound, you connected your receiver and pressed a button on your machine.
Very cumbersome since it could only do one page at a time. But then again, I remember the copy machine from 3M that used the pink wax paper to have the image burned into it and then you peeled off the pink paper and put it against a paper and put it through heat rollers to transfer the image, one page at a time.
I remember all of them from old liquid toner copiers with coated paper to the adding machines with a crank (no batterys to change) to fax machines that needed to be "adjusted about 3 hours of use". In that time a good tech was worth a lot money. now we have cheap machine that when they break you toss them.
The schools always used "rexograph" (or "mimeograph") machimes to make multiple copies, which always used purple ink (then in the later years, it got blue and maybe even black). I used to see those things run sometimes, with each paper running over cylindrical drum. Like going back to the early centuries of printing. I wondered why they kept those things when my mother's office had copiers pretty much like today's back in the 70's.
I worked in the A/V office at Wheatley HS... and we got to run the "ditto" machine (that's the one with the purple "ink" that used alcohol). The other machine, memeograph, used real ink... only the office secretaries could use that machine.
... we got to run the "ditto" machine (that's the one with the purple "ink" that used alcohol).
We called it the "whiskey press" when Mr. Neidhardt (the principal) wasn't listening :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nothing like taking a whiff of a fresh ditto copy.:)
Do it long enough and you take the next class sitting on the lights.
>>> I used to see those things run sometimes, with each paper running over cylindrical drum. Like going back to the early centuries of printing. I wondered why they kept those things when my mother's office had copiers pretty much like today's back in the 70's. <<<
Plain paper copiers were introduced in 1962 by Xerox (the "914"). They were intended for low volume copying, and were leased at a cost of 7¢ per copy, plus the cost of supplies such as paper and toner. By the ‘70s, the price per copy was down to about 2.5¢ plus costs, and the machines were faster, but it was still expensive. These machines all optically scanned the original, and electrostatically transferred the image from each scan to a drum, and then to each page going through the machine as it passed under the drum, and the image was sealed by heat and pressure. The mimeograph was a cheap printing press. A master had to be prepared, and ink was transferred to each page from the master wrapped on a drum as they came into contact. The copies were far cheaper than on an office copier, but making the master was labor intensive, so it was a high volume device.
Tom
The mimeograph was a cheap printing press. A master had to be prepared, and ink was transferred to each page from the master wrapped on a drum as they came into contact. The copies were far cheaper than on an office copier, but making the master was labor intensive, so it was a high volume device.
Guess who invented the mimeograph?
Edison, n'est-ce pas?
C'est vrai!
Educated guess....inventor of mimeograph was Thomas Edison.
Apart from the PBS program 'Empire of the Air,' Nova had a program on Xerox and how simple and messy the first process was...why bother when carbon paper produced better typewritten copies! Then came the selenium coated glass drum process...too expensive...a strike of genius...put them in NYC libraries. Eeeeyup....I'm of the 60 baud five level teletype generation. Full carrier FSK...HF forever. CI Peter
I remember facsimile machines at AT&T....drums with originals attached to be scanned. Also stylus electromechanical scanners, IBM word processors the size of two desks, Xerox machines the size of a small car, flying spot scanners, calculators that worked like pepper corn grinders, all tube receivers and transmitters, REAL GEEPS and Willys and fiften cent tokens to go down to Cortlandt Street. Burned Kleinschmidt TTYs all night im my apartment on RTTY HF circuits.
Now, everything replaced by some gizmo I can hold in the palm of my hand! CI Peter is WB2SGT Extra Class HF Forever Ham
Oh yes, the laser printer Xerox 9700 which came out in 1979 - this was a huge, three-part machine and it had a stand-up tape unit alongside it. Now laser printers take up a 2x2 space on your desk, if that.
wayne
>>> Oh yes, the laser printer Xerox 9700 which came out in 1979 <<<
That was a high speed copier, not a printer it still used direct optical transfer of the image to the transfer medium. It quickly became a dinosaur when much more compact models were introduced which scanned the image, digitized the picture, and then transferred the digitized image to a small drum.
Tom
The High-Speed copier/collator/sorter was the 8700, we had that one too, it had the same engine. The 9700 was able to create original image documents from stored "frm" files.
wayne
>>> The 9700 was able to create original image documents from stored "frm" files. <<<
I stand corrected. I was thinking of the 9200. The 9700 must have been their first practical use of laser printer technology, although they did not get true digital copiers until 1995. How were the "frm" files created? Were they scanned, or similar to IBM's mag card storage which could store printed matter and lines using a code similar to ASCII.
Tom
>>> We in the weather biz were using faxes in the mid 70's ("Quip" was the manufacturer; a stylus etched on special receiving paper; the signal was analog). <<<
Those were introduced to the market by Xerox in 1969 as a "Telecopier." They were leased to large trans-continental companies that used them internally, and had built in acoustic modems to standard Western Electric handsets. (In those days you did not tie into Ma Bell's network with your own equipment.) A caller obtained voice contact, the receiver turned on the Telecopier and placed a sheet of paper on the drum and told the sender the receiving machine was ready, the caller placed his handset in the acoustic modem and when the receiver heard the handshaking tone, he put his handset in the modem at that end. It took more than two minutes to send an 8 ½" x 11" document, and a bell rang on each end when the copy was complete so there could be voice confirmation that the document arrived, and a manual disconnection of the telephone connection. The original machines had to be modified when some of the tones generated phreaked some of the phone company's equipment.
Xerox never realized what they had, and considered it a long distance copier, to be used incidental to a telephone call, rather than as the reason for it. Of course Xerox also invented the GUI computer interface and did not know what to do with that either, so they sold it cheap to Apple.
Tom
To quote Paul Harvey, now you know the rest of the story.:)
Add to that the mouse, the GUI, and several other things Xerox PARC squandered (and others got rich from).
An aside: In 1974, engineers at Digital Equipment Corp. in Massachusetts showed Ken Olsen, the CEO, a personal computer with a color screen, full keyboard andmemory very generous compared to machines from Apple which would not exist for a few more years. They would have cost buyers up to $10,000 each. Olson asked, "Why would anybody want to buy a computer when he/she can log on remotely, inexpensively, to our minicomputers?" He cancelled the project.
I just have to ask the twentysomethings -- although, if you're on this site, you must have some historical interest -- but does your head explode when we start into these 70's-tech discussions? I mean, when you're in a group and you start hearing the prices of guys' first handheld calculators, what do you do? (Mine was $400. Sorry, I couldn't help myself).
I must agree, being barely 20 myself, that it's a little annoying and I feel very out of the loop. Only because you asked. (BTW, my first handheld calculator cost about $2 and I think I got ripped off).
"The upper Jersey City waterfront was an abandoned industrial wasteland."
But it had this wonderful parking lot at Pavonia for only $3.50 a day.
At my first job out of college in 1979 we had one 9600bps fax machine. It was the size of a washing machine and was only used for faxes to/from our HQ out in Minnesota. The other fax machines were much slower and and the speed had to be set manually. We didn't get computer terminals until 1980, and we had to beg for those. We had one huge "word processor" in the office but plenty of Selectric typewriters.
At another employer we had one PC per floor, you had to reserve it ahead of time. A few employees had PCs at home and I remember one bragging that he owned a 1200 baud modem. They weren't cheap back then and acoustic modems were still around.
Cellphones came to NYC in 1983 or 84. One of our subcontractors had a "portable" one that looked like those WW2 walkie-talkies. (Before cellular, there were mobile car phones but they operated under an awful system called IMTS. Early mobile phones had rotary dials.)
VCRs were around since 1975 but didn't get cheap until 1984/85, and cheap meant $500. My first CD player in 1987 cost $399 and I thought that was a good price.
"No Internet, faxes, cell phones, E-Z Pass, CDs, DVDs, DNA, TiVo or SUVs.("
You know it sounds kind of nice. I miss the 80s. When radio had big sound, they still played records, and my old loyal friend the cassette tape was the mainstream.
The first time I heard a CD I thought "where's the midrange". A cassette recorded and played on a good machine still sounds better than a CD.
"Still recording and playing cassette tapes, regularly"
Even so, you can hear stuff on CDs that you couldn't hear on LPs. My CD of Bernstein's reading of Beethoven's Fourth Symphony with the NY Philharmonic features Lenny stomping his foot in the middle of the first movement. While you can't hear the impact of shoe on wood, you can hear and feel the thump-thump-thump. Of course, having better stereo components and a beefier power amp will help, too.
>>> you can hear stuff on CDs that you couldn't hear on LPs <<<
Not true. The analog signal on an LP has more definition if you have the listening equipment to appreciate it.
Tom
I have the 5th (of course!), same conductor, same orchestra; Columbia Masterworks CD, you can hear Bernstein tapping the baton on something during the misterioso part of the 3rd Movemnt. Very creepy. And he manages to carve a beat out of the anti-music (what I call the 3/8 part) section of the same movement. He raises all kind of hell in the First movement, one has to wonder as to how he can wring so much volume out of an orchestra. Well, it IS the New York Philharmonic, the heaviest of the heavies.
wayne
<<<something you ate to get warm, and came in pea, tomato or chicken noodle. Coffee was something you drank to wake you up and came caf or decaf.
Muffins were something you ate to wash down the coffee, or took out of a plastic wrapper to put in the toaster.<<<
You're losin' me...what are soup. coffee and muffins now?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I remember having an old TEAC reel to reel that put CD's to shame...Hell, vinyl and cassettes were the deal...Also as a communicator in your Navy, using the old drum fax machines in 1995 when I was doing a joint tour in Florida...Life was good back then.
Come now Howard it isn't all that bad.
I work for the same "company" as you and I've was assigned to downtown Brooklyn in my 18 years with the company. Matter of fact I would wish they moved us "downtown" since I travel from Brooklyn to Long Island City ever day.
Look at the bright side, you'll be right near the transit museum and when it reopens you can have your lunch there >G<.
Or talk a walk down to the promonade during lunch and on payday with 90 minutes for lunch you can enjoy one of the many fine resturants there.
Talking about food, downtown brooklyn has 100 times better places to eat then your current location. Plus the shopping is better too. I don't know how many times I get a call to pickup something and have to make a stop on the way home instead of getting at lunch.
You can even have lunch in front of 131 Livinstion and try to peak in the windows of the training center and see them using the simulators.
Why yes you commute time will increase, you are overlooking some benefits of Downtown Brooklyn (DMV is right there too). Most importantly the transit museum and store (but when I was there it only cost a token to get in >G<).
AT&T 'AdNet'....administrative data network...started with 110 Baud 8 level ASCII ASR/KSR 33s from Teletype Corperation. Ended with 35s and 37s...solid state terminals. Look at what we have now!!! Oiling a 15 or 28 five level machine was so easy...troubleshooting video/voice/data/fax software conflicts is agida. CI Peter
I remember when I first saw the Artics in Westchester County back in late October of 1983. They seemed so novel at the time. Now those Artics have been replaced with new Artics. I still remember seeing graffiti covered subway cars on the elevated sections of the subway whenever I went into the Bronx and happened to have been next to an elevated line and a train went by. Those days are long gone and now you have stainless steel cars on all the line and the "Redbirds" are disappearing, and now no World Trade Center. Things have changed a lot since 1984.
#3 West End Jeff
So let us flash back to day I first set foot in this building, November 13, 1984.
Back then, the Second Avenue Subway was a mere pipe dream, with virtually no chance of ever being built, while today, in contrast, it ... oh, wait. Never mind.
November 13, 1984. I wasn't even a thought.
A very nice post. You write well.
"Jamaica only had one subway line. Roosevelt Island had none."
Well, Jamaica had two lines - the A train was the second, but downtown Jamaica only had one. It would be two years before two more would debut.
A passenger lost a finger on the L a few days ago while walking between cars. Are locked end doors likely to make a comeback even on 60ft cars?
How did he lose a finger? All of them are unlocked except the ones in the front and back of the train and between the conductor's cabs on the R143. They might lock it up during the times when school's let out. Don't want tomorrow's geniuses get run over from between... again.
Not all of the L trains are R143 yet. There are still quite a few R42's on the L yet.
I didn't hear about this incident but since end doors on 60' cars are unlocked except at the ends of the train our subject likely let the door close on his finger. At the given weight of an R-42 end door and the speed that they close at - all I can say is I'll bet that smarted.
R42, I forgot about those!! I heard about this but I was sort of thinking someone was trying to collect on their pit bull and I did not remember what a 143 door closing was like. I did think that the black box could fry a speeding TO.
It could have been worese at least he was not taking a wiz
It was a 143 and the difgits got jammed in the end door pockets. YUCK
Actually it was 2 fingers - middle and index. The man, who was passing between 2 cars was distracted by a young lady walking behind him. The fingers were recovered but I have no info as to whether they were re-attached.
It would depend on just how much tissue was destroyed. If a finger is severed "cleanly," that is, without a lot of crushed tissue, and the victim (with the finger on ice) gets to the hospital in time, then you've got a decent shot at reattaching it and restoring a lot of function. If too much nerve damage occured within the finger and muscle and muscle damage occurred due toa crushing injury, then there's nothing you can do except refer the victim for a prosthesis if he/she wants one.
When my left hand got rearranged by a lawn mower, the plastic surgeon salvaged as much as he could. As he put it, he left whatever the mower didn't cut off. It's not as bad as it sounds; I didn't lose any knuckles and the mower missed the index finger.
What are the white and blue lights along the tunnel walls for? The lights I am talking about seem to be mostly on curves and come 4-6 to a group and there seems to be about 6 groups in a row. Why are some groups white and some blue? Am I making sense? They're arranged sortof like this:
o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o
-o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o
--o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o
---o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o
Blue light are the emergency phones. Every XX number of feet.
Are you taking about the white lights connected in series (5x120 bulbs = 600 volts) or the light in the tunnel.
They are connected in vertically about 4-6 per column and 4 inches apart. I think there are about 6-8 columns each about 1 foot apart. Maybe farther. I cant remember where I sawe them but seems like that are at tunnel openings coming from the station just at sharp curves.
You will see those on the inside of tunnel portals.
I believe one of the purposes is to help the T/O's eyes adjust faster from daylight to tunnel light.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
>>> one of the purposes is to help the T/O's eyes adjust faster from daylight to tunnel light <<<
How would it do that?
Tom
Heh. I was hoping someone would say that. Until political season's over, I'd prefer to reserve my contrarianism to questions like "how could you vote for a Paturkey?" and such. :)
When you come out of the sun into a tunnel, one problem motormen DIDN'T have was seeing the signals. They seem reasonably bright from the foamer glass, but believe me, the beacon lens is aimed DEAD in your eyeballs in the cab. Can't miss them unless you're already dead. Heh. The rise out of the tunnel to daylight is a bit more of an eyeball challenge, but you can see them just the same on an open cut or an el as well - same reason. Aimed right AT ya, not at the foamer glass. :)
By keeping the area brightened by all those lights on the wall they eye can transition better from daylight.
Try it yourself in your home. At night turn out all the lights in the room, see how long it takes for your eyes to adjust. Then try it but leave a small light on (a nightlight if you have one). You will find your eyes adjust to the lower level of light faster.
But why are some of ther light groups blue? If I remember correctly, I saw these lights (white as well as blue) way underground in Lower Manhattan, not near the surface.
There shouldn't be any groups of blue lights. Blue light means there is one or more of a telephone, fire extingishers, power cutoff switch near it.
See Lou's post regarding the blue lights.
I think the white lights you're seeing are the temporary lights strung up in a work area.
And besides, we all know the blue lights mean there's a K-Mart upstairs. :)
I believe they have a set up like that by the 60th street tunnel portal Queens side, there are a lot of tunnel lights.
>>> Try it yourself in your home. At night turn out all the lights in the room, see how long it takes for your eyes to adjust. Then try it but leave a small light on (a nightlight if you have one). You will find your eyes adjust to the lower level of light faster. <<<
I do not think you have the right comparison. Of course you can see better in a darkened room which has additional light no matter how dim it is, but we are talking about transitioning from light to dark. Would one's eyes adjust faster if the night light was on for only five seconds as opposed to no night light? After all, a train entering a portal is not near those lights for a long period of time, and in any case, the modern trains have headlights on them, so the T/O is not as much in the dark as he once was.
Tom
Could that possibly be banks of white lights (5 vertically, actually), one of them was out, but was near a blue light which made it look like illuminated blue? I saw that once and wondered what it was.
There is a blue bank of lights on the ceiling at the north end of 57th St. diamond Q side, (with one or two bulbs missing) and I think one somewhere else on the Broadway line local, and they are always off. I don't know what that is. It's not in our rule book.
I rode int eh COmet V cars. fromt eh otuside they are shiny rather than dull finish being stainless steel. Windows are of the Acela Express Type rather than the elongated type in previous NJT cars.
Interior- the blue and pink are gone. The pink is now white and seats are a rich burgundy "leather" type look with split headrests. At the end the seats which in previous cars faced each other are now four on each side of the appropriate end are now against the wall (ala IRT subway arrangement) and flip up for wheelchair access. The doors between cars are electric but thre button has been moved fropmt eh door to the wall to the right of the door as a lighted round push button. he LED signs are now flush with the lowered ceiling rather than jutting out as int he COmet IV. Color stripe: instead of the diagonal stripe the end starts out as plain stainless and then in a fashion similar to the red on the R142/142A morphs into one color and then the second and third color before morphing back to stainless. Unlike SEPTA, the morph is done via dots increasing in size and number untilt he change is complete. (Similar to the R142 Color band)
Someone- please try to get a photo of the new color pattern.
Any possible view out the end?
I didn't get a picture of the interior of the cars...but I did get a picture of the cockpit of the ALP-46!!
Nice pic...you should see my pic, I got sort of a 3/4 view of the cab, I bet Trevor got a good shot of it, too...I have a pic of me in the cab as well.
As for the Comet V pics, I have a pic of the trailer and the front of the cab, but that's about it...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
can you post the photo here or e-mail it to me? Did you get the color band?
This is todays NY Daily news And I dont know if anybody read it today. But this is what the TA is doing.
Bronx el on right track
TA's $250M project calls for renovating 10 stations
By PETE DONOHUE and BILL EGBERT
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Gun Hill Road Station of Nos. 2 and 5 trains will get a new ground-level building.
The elevated tracks looming over White Plains Road are slated for an all-encompassing, $250 million face-lift, according to Transit Authority officials.
The project calls for renovating the tracks for the Nos. 2 and 5 trains along White Plains Road north of 180th St., and includes renovations to 10 stations, including a new ground-level building for the station at Gun Hill Road.
The other stations due for a makeover are Bronx Park East, Pelham Parkway, Allerton Ave., Burke Ave.; 219th, 225th and 233rd Sts.; Nereid Ave. (238th St.) and 241st St. (Wakefield).
All 10 stations will get new tiling, lighting, canopies and public-address systems, as well as new stairs, if needed and reconstruction of steel and concrete supports.
The Gun Hill Road rehab will mean the demolition of the current ground-level building in favor of a new one that features escalators and two elevators up to the elevated tracks.
End of an era
The plaza around the new station building will be reworked to accommodate city buses as well, allowing riders to move between trains and buses without having to cross the busy thoroughfares of Gun Hill and White Plains Roads.
The White Plains el reconstruction also will involve the final destruction of the last remnant of the old Third Ave. el that plied the upper East Side in the first half of the century.
Though Manhattan service on the Third Ave. el ended in 1955 and most of its tracks came down soon after, one last spur of the old line was left standing, in the north Bronx near the White Plains Road IRT line.
The restoration of the elevated tracks towering over White Plains Road will complement a project going on underneath them. Last June, state Assemblyman Carl Heastie (D-Wakefield, Williamsbridge) secured $804,000 for new decorative streetlights along White Plains Road, intended to increase visibility and reduce crime on the darkened roadway, which has become a haven for drug dealers and prostitutes.
The Transit Authority plans to maintain service on two of the line's three tracks at all times for the duration of the work. Assuming the contract is awarded next month as planned, work should begin in January and finish in April 2007.
Though Manhattan service on the Third Ave. el ended in 1955 and most of its tracks came down soon after, one last spur of the old line was left standing, in the north Bronx near the White Plains Road IRT line.
Yet another transit related article filled with inaccuracies.
One of the downsides of all this emphasis on rehabilitating subway infrasructure is the destruction of remnants of the past. Another 20 years and the whole system will look as if it were built in the 1990's.
Thats the Daily News for you
When I read the article, I thought the Daily News meant the Bronx Park Spur from 149th to Gun Hill, they just should said The used to terminate at Gun Hill Road.This is pretty much near me the Canopy at 241st Street is rotting away, and Pelham Parkway station is poorly lit.
When I read the article, I thought the Daily News meant the Bronx Park Spur from 149th to Gun Hill, they just should of said the Third Avenue El terminated at Gun HIll Road until the early 70's.
Sounds like they're planning to either remove the "hump" at Gun Hill Road cause by the White Plains Road tracks having to pass over the old Third Ave. el terminal, which was on the lower level, or just rip out all lower level remnants and re-do it with elevators and escalators, which would leave the station just as an unusually high, but normal-looking three track/two island platform el station.
I was watching the news just now(Ch 7) and they say that in the past month, maintenance work on els in Brooklyn & Queens have caused damage to cars underneath because of falling debris. They were at W stations in Astoria and on the West End line. Also, they did NOT use protective netting Luckily, no one was injured yet but they better start cleaning it up or there are going to be lots of lawsuits and the TA can't afford to be sued at this time, or at all.
I know this might start an arguement but,
Has there actually been a confirmed case of something falling from an elevated structure? On 1010 WINS this morning there was a John Montone report about something that bounced off a car convertible roof. If something did fall from a structure, I think it would have went thru a convertable top.
If something did fall from a structure, I think it would have went thru a convertable top.
Convertible tops are actually quite resilient. True, if it fell down like an arrow, a 2x4 could puncture a top, but if it fell flat and parallel to the car's direction it would be stopped by the ribs and even falling flat or angled and perpendicular to the car's direction it would probably bounce, there's that much resilience in the top. The top might get damaged, depending on the weight or shape of the object, but the occupants would be protected.
Spoken from the perspective of one who has owned several convertibles in his lifetime (currently owning one, a '94 Mustang [my wife's toy]).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There appears to be a tribute to the R-36 in the Times Square rehab project. From the BMT mezzanine, follow the signs to the A/C/E/7. You'll go up a few steps and you'll find yourself in a narrow passageway pointed directly at the 41st/Broadway street exit. Before you get there, stop and look up, to the right. Yes, at the lighting fixture. Look familiar? Yes, the covers are R-36-style, perhaps taken off an actual R-36. A nice touch.
Interseting, I have to check that out next time I am there.
They've had them at Rockefeller Center (east side of the mezzanine outside the fare control area, by the exits to the street and RCA building) for years. Probably taken from R17-21.
In the narrow part of the 41st St. passage, there is one plastic fixture that looks like the glass ones. This is not from any subway car, but I was saying they should have used them in the redbirds and R-32's, since they look like the original fixtures.
Nice. I'll check it out, ASAP.
I'll be sure to hop on the 2150 VCP to see this!
Ditto, same feature at the 47-50 Rockerfeller Center
Station on the B/D/F/V when you enter from the
corridor to the North of the Radio City Main Entrance..
I was in the 72nd St. neighborhood today, and saw a yellow sign saying that the old entrance was closing at 1 AM on 10/29, so I assume the new entrance (which looks good from the outside view I had)will open at that time. The old entrance that is closing will be turned into a new entrance, and will re-open in the Spring of 2003. -Nick
I was right near there last Sunday (not yesterday). I didn't even think to check 72nd out while I was there. I even walked down to 66th Street to go to Tower Records, and boarded the 1 to go down to Rector to see the WTC site which I hadn't been to in a few months. Oh well.
Rats! I was planning on stopping by 72nd Sunday morning to take pictures of the old stationhouse, but I was running late, so I figured I'd find some other day to go. Guess I missed my chance!
David,
I don't know when the actual construction on the other old entrance will start. But you may still be able to get some exterior shots this week. -Nick
Exterior shots I have. It's interior shots I wanted. Too late. I guess I can still probably get the staircases at platform level.
"I guess I can still probably get the staircases at platform level."
I'm sure you can, but I would act fast before they take the wrecking ball to them, or wrap the staircases with wood boards. -Nick
I'll be there in an hour. Fast enough? (We'll see!)
LOL..let me know how it turned out! -Nick
With Anaheim's victory coming on the 98th anniversary of the IRT, it made me hope (and wonder) if the subway series will return in 2004. If it does, game 4 of the World Series will be played at Shea Stadium on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 (unless the process to determine home field advantage is changed, which means it would be in the Bronx instead). Now that would be an awesome part of an already high-anticipated anniversary by railfans! -Nick
FOX will probably request that game one not be on a Saturday night in future years since that is the lowest prime time ratings.
What's gonna happen now that the list expires this Thursday?
The TA can hire Provisonaly until a new list is established.
I understand that the 7 express will be getting the 74 st-broadway stop as an express stop. Now why would anyone want to kill that fabulous express run from Woodside to Junction only to facilitate passengers xfering from the E and F Express. I feel this would only make the line more time comsuming switching in expresses and then locals backing up waiting for the express to pull out and switch back. What kind of time saving moot is this?
It bad enough that they are slowing all the of the lines for the sake of safety but dont kill this run.
The 7 will be getting track on the east side of 74th St. to allow for trains to switch over to the local track and stop there, and then switch back over on the existing switches just west of the 69th St. station (or vice-versa in PM rush). But given the tight headways on the Flushing line, it's likely only a handful of inbound AM expresses or outbound PM expresses, if any at all, would be rerouted to use the new switching option, so chances are the current Woodside-Junction Blvd. express run is safe for most of the current express trains.
I doubt that any trains will be scheduled to use those switches. They'll be used for GO's (if, say, there's weekend work on a local track at 82nd, trains will still be able to stop at 74th in both directions) and they may be used by an occasional express if there's been a longish gap in local service -- long enough that 74th desparately needs a train right now but not so long that the express needs to go local all the way.
That makes good sense....makes it possible to get trains into 74th when really needed.
While loads of people do transfer at 74th Street, the trip from there to either end of the route isn't long enough to warrant regular express service at 74th Street. Passengers boarding there would only skip four stops heading toward Flushing, and five heading toward Manhattan. In addition, the rush hour expresses are already crowded enough with Flushing-Manhattan riders. Can you imagine how crowded those expresses would be with the addition of 74th Street riders?
That's what I think as well. I mean, the express is alread filled up to thr brim with passengers rush-hour, either direction. Do we really need more people on there? I mean, you have to contemplate what's already on there before you think of anything else. Geez, I can image the 7 becoming like Japan's overcrowded subway lines. Scary.
The point in making 74th an express stop (which isn't going to happen without rearranging the tracks and platforms) is not to give passengers at 74th a quicker ride -- they'd only save two minutes on the express. It's to give passengers at 74th a shorter wait.
Except downstairs on the Queens Boulevard line, subway passengers traveling between express stops that aren't very far apart will take whichever train comes first, local or express. Whatever time is gained on the express once it comes is often lost in the wait.
Even though my closest station is 86th on the 1/9, I sometimes walk to 96th -- not because the express saves much time (compared to my time walking to the station, it doesn't), but because locals at times are infrequent and very crowded, and going to an express stop gives me the option of taking an express. Or a local, if it comes first and I fit.
The most logical use for the new switches would be for inbound trains after night and weekend games at Shea -- they could leave from the center track at Willets Point and run express to 74th St. and switch to the local track to dump passengers for transfer to the IND.
The weekend and night headways on the Flushing line are still better than most other lines in the system, but they do slack off enough to permit such switching. It might even work for weekend trains headed towards Shea, that could run express from 74th St. to Willets Point, but I wouldn't try to do it on weeknights; someone headed home from a day at work who's trying to transfer from the IND to the 7 for a trip to 82nd or 90th streets would be pretty ticked off if the next stop was Junction Blvd.
Here's what sucks about the 7 line. They run express service way too late into the evening. It's not necessary. If you look at the timetable, the number of trains per hour servicing local stations between 10-11pm actually increases over 9-10pm daypart. Does that make sense??? If anything, service should decrease later into the evening. The waiting time between 8-10pm is too long for local customers. I hate it when I operate an express to Main St between 9-10pm and see all those students waiting at 33rd, and all those IND passengers waiting at 74th. I really wouldn't mind the additional 6 minutes of travel time for the greater good of Queens passengers.
If you look at the timetable, the number of trains per hour servicing local stations between 10- 11pm actually increases over 9-10pm daypart. Does that make sense??? If anything, service should decrease later into the evening.
What time do the Broadway theaters let out? While it might seem illogical at first, there is great demand in New York in the 10-11 slot.
Broadway theater's? What does that have to do with the #7 line? We all know who uses the #7 line. Especially in the later hours. I'm not saying there's no demand between the mentioned hours. I'm simply stating that express trains have drastically cut service to vital stations like 33rd, 46th, and the always in demand 74th.
What about the Q diamond, it runs express until 9:30 (it is extended from the original Orange Q's running time).
Please Queens passengers have it good enough, it is The Bronx who gets screwed over, in case you didn't know Queens people love express, just look at the V situation when it started out, people would rather cram on the E or F rather than get on an empty V(at least it was like that before). The F also runs express 24/7.
The F runs express 24/7 so that riders on 63rd Street don't start asking "Why can't we have local service all the time?". At least that is the theory. Besides, why do they need the E, F, and G all on the local at night? It seems the current trend is to have 10 minute headways on the locals at night before an express service is run, with upper CPW being an exception.
Exceptions are CPW IND, Broadway BMT, and (before the 7/22/01 bridge flip) 6th Avenue IND.
Hey, that's right. You have the circle Q running express along Broadway 24/7 now. The Broadway Express IS back!!
I think the main reason was the fact that the "G" runs on QB at nights. They can save on running time if the "F" runs express.
Don't know how they can help 33rd St. without dumping night express service completely, but they could run express between QP and Woodside and then shift all trains over to the local tracks at 74th. That would also allow the MTA to run express trains back from Shea after night baseball games from Willets Point to 74th, and then run local to QP. That would allow express service in both directions to connect up with the IND transfer.
Let just hope they don't put new timers there, the Woodside-Junction stretch is one of the few timerless express runs left in the system.
If it were up to me, more trains would be sent up the local track to make express stops, with 74th being the only local stop made. That station is terrible. Could and should be better, but the passengers won't cooperate.
The problem with an express that stops everywhere is that it becomes a local. The problem with additional switching moves is that what little time advantage the express currently has will be lost.
My vote is to reserve the added flexibility for G.O.'s and emergencies, but NOT to use it as part of a normal service pattern. THen again, "they" didn't ask me.
Is this authorized in the current Capital Plan? I didn't see that project listed. Is it an add-on?
Its about time. There are a lot of people who make this transfer and all trains should stop at 74/Broadway.
I agree. Maybe a minimal amount of trains may skip the station.
you cant shoot video on that line anymore !!!
who cares ??..............lol !!
Then they should take out the 61st express stop to compensate for the new express stop.
#3 West End Jeff
Hmmm not likely since that is an LIRR connection (not sure how many transfer from the 7 to the LIRR there).
I betcha 74th street gets more riders than Woodside. Whenever I see it, 74th has way more people on the platform.
In the rush, its nearly filled to the point where it looks like people stand in the stairways so no one falls off the platform so imagine a 7exp stopping there!! Woodside has reasonable crowds but NOTHING compares to 74th on the Flushing line in the Queens portion.
Maybe they can skip certain express stops once in a while if need be.
#3 West End Jeff
I agree, the system has gotten slower and adding a express stop at 74 St, IMO would make NO SENSE. The trains are already near a crush load from Manhattan and if 74 became an express stop, some <7>'s or all, would only comsume time, make the load even worse and would evaporate all the remaining air in the train[especially Redbirds]. The straight run would be partially damaged by the switch. It would best for a GO or for Shea Stadium games[particularly night games] but express 7's to Main St should end at 9pm instead of 10pm.
I don't find that there would be any benefit to having 74th as a local station. The express service benefits the people further east towards Main Street, more than stations that get closer to Manhattan. The express trains are full as they pass through 74th anyway. The only station that would benefit from the expresses stopping at 74th would be the people using that station. And their benefit would not be that great anyway, that they just couldn't take the local.
In my opinion, the people that would be inconvenienced by making 74th an express station, are greater than the people that would benefit from making it an express station. How much time would the people at 74th save - 5 minutes?
Why isn't anyone complaining about the Diamond Q running until 9:30 pm?
'Cause this is a thread about 7 service in case you haven't realized it yet.
Try starting a and maybe'll you get the attention you need.
This was also brought up in another thread as well, so this is not the first time.
This was also brought up in another thread as well, so this is not the first time.
I wasn't just talking about this thread alone
I understand where you're pointing at but did you posts get any responses. No. I'm not being detrimental to your ideas and I think they're great, but I just suggested something. No harm intended, my friend.
Precisely. Besides, the people waiting there have no realy sensible benefit anyways. They save what, 5 minutes at most. That doesn't warrant such a drastic change as all. All of that, considering that the expresses are already filled to the brim, so forget it. Hopefully, the MTA will use it ONLY for GO's.
I don't mind. Besides, there was an inkling that 74th St. should be made an express stop. It has a major station right under it that all expresses stop at. So why not the 7? I have been wondering about that every time I would visit the area.
you cant shoot video on that line anymore !!!
who cares ??..............lol !!
What would you do in 2004 when they open the Bridge back up with both sides open as your plan. This would include reconfiguration of Nassau Street, South Ferry and The new transit Hub at Ground Zero.
Keep in mind, think conditions at 2004.
The first thing I would do is get my Sea Beach back on that bridge permanently. Then let the others fight like rats to get their share of the bridge's use. As for which side the Sea Beach uses, it must be the side connected to Broadway, and while I'm about it make it known again as the Broadway Express in Manhattan.
Will the W uses the bridge also
IMHO, I would think that the W would go bye-bye, and the B would resume its old West End route. That way, West End and 4th Avenue riders would once again have a direct shot to the 6th Avenue line. Similarly, I would expect that the D would once again serve the Brighton line.
:(
That was a loaded question, eh?:)
Be the first subway map collector in line at the token booth to get the new map (showing trains run on both sides of mannyb) , new 2004 mannyb service brochure (if there will be one), and new mannyb trains schedules.
My plans for the B,D,N,Q back on the bridge. The V can go into Brooklyn to Chruch along with the G.
- W can serve Downtown going From Astoria to Whitehall weekdays only
- Q to serve Brighton weekdays 6am to Midnight
- J to stay at Broad St Express Marcy - Myrtle
- Z to go stay at Broad Express Marcy - Eastern Parkway
- M to stay at Bay Parkway all local stops
- B to go Express peak direction 9 Ave - Bay Pky
- N alt. to Kings Hwy and Coney Island peak direction express 59 st - Kings Hwy including Pacific - 59 St
- D stays as before before bridge closed
- 3 to go to the Jerome el to Burnside (find a way to constuct this)
- 4 to go express 149 - Burnside alt 4 's and if 3's come to the Bx
- 5 rush hour to 238 st to go express Gun Hill - 3 Ave
- 7 to get to Javits soon
- 9 to go Express from 96 St - 137 St
- A Make Rockaway Park express From Howard Beach to Grant Ave
- E bring express back from Continental - Jamaica/Van Wyck until 9 pm
- F make express in Brooklyn Jay to Church Ave 6 Am to Midnight daily
Any suggestions,
No particular suggestions, but one question: How do you plan to placate the passengers at local stations? You've cut service in half (or worse) at many local stations that already barely get the service they need, and in the case of the West End local stations, you've removed all direct access to Midtown. Do you really think that's in the best interest of the riding public?
or how bout this one:
B- same way it was before the bridge closed.
D- 205th St.-2 Av.
Q- 71/Continental Av.-Brighton Beach via Broadway Exp and 63rd St Tunnel and Brighton Exp.
N- Broadway Express via Bridge as someone so badly wants it.
M- Metropolitan Av- Coney Island via Brighton Local.
F- Exp from Jay St- Church Av Weekdays Only.
G- Court Sq-Church Av. All Times.
V-145th St. Manhattan-Jamaica Center Queens Weekdays only;Z train eliminated.
W- Ditmars Blvd-Whitehall St. Middays and Evenings.Extended to 95th St Rush Hours.
V Train: "N--Broadway Express vis bridge as someone so badly want it." I'm thinking you were thinking of me. If so, I thank you. Now can you get the TA to buy your plan. It's worth a case of Bud if you happen to be a beer drinker.
Obviously, this plan was made as a joke.
First laugh:
D- 205th St.-2 Av.
Trains have to switch in front of F/V trains, and then onto terminal track. Delays for all 3 trains (as well as the "B") leaves passengers in tears from laughter (not to mention the fits of anger thanks to the fact that the train needlessly stops in manhattan instead of bklyn, and there's only one 6th av/brooklyn service.
Second laugh:
Q- 71/Continental Av.-Brighton Beach via Broadway Exp and 63rd St Tunnel and Brighton Exp.
It seems that you want two locals on QB to go to Broadway (even though the R is presently underused). Also, you either want the E to run on 53rd by itself (I can see the humor there), or you want both E and F expresses to operate on 53rd (big laughs for local passengers between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt, not to mention closure of 57th/6th av station).
Third laugh:
M- Metropolitan Av- Coney Island via Brighton Local.
The runs at lower headways, with shorter trains and with no access to manhattan. Apparently, your idea of a good joke is reducing service instead of making it better when both sides of the bridge are open. Further, the M operates on West End for two reasons: 1. The need to reduce crowding on West End "B" trains and 2. Full-time D/Q srvice.
Fourth laugh:
V-145th St. Manhattan-Jamaica Center Queens Weekdays only;Z train eliminated.
The whole purpose of the "V" is service to Queens Blvd. This train serves no purpose (and is a copy of the "B" from 145th to B'way Lafayette).
And the Final laugh:
W- Ditmars Blvd-Whitehall St. Middays and Evenings.Extended to 95th St Rush Hours.
Both 95th trains would follow the same route. The train should operate rus hours only to Whitehall to provide extra local service. Another 95th train would be better operated as a train either across the bridge or up nassau.
Really, do you guys think about this stuff before you post it? Or is the really ComedyTalk?
I think this plan makes more sense
What in the...?!? Got a good chuckle from this.
or how bout this one:
B - same way it was before the bridge closed.
D - 205th St.-2 Av.
Q - 71/Continental Av.-Brighton Beach via Broadway Exp and 63rd St Tunnel and Brighton Exp.
N - Broadway Express via Bridge as someone so badly wants it.
M - Metropolitan Av- Coney Island via Brighton Local.
F - Exp from Jay St- Church Av Weekdays Only.
G - Court Sq-Church Av. All Times.
V -145th St. Manhattan-Jamaica Center Queens Weekdays only;Z train eliminated.
W - Ditmars Blvd-Whitehall St. Middays and Evenings.Extended to 95th St Rush Hours.
I have told you before what needs to be done:
(D) 6th Ave Exp / Brighton Local to Coney Island : All Times
(B) 6th Ave Exp / West End Express to Bay Parkway : Rush Hours
(B) 6th Ave Exp / 9th Avenue : Day Times (Non-Rush)
(F) 6th Ave Local / Culver Line to Coney Island : All Times
(V) 6th Ave Local / Culver Express to Bay Parkway : Day Times
(Q) Broadway Exp / Brighton Express to Brighton Beach : Day Times via Bridge
(N) Broadway Exp / Sea Beach to Coney Island : All Times via Bridge
(W) Broadway Local / West End Local to Coney Island : All Times via Tunnel
(R) Broadway Local / Fourth Avenue Local to 95th Street : All Times via Tunnel
(M) Nassau Street / Fourth Avenue Express to 95th Street : Rush Hours
So Be It!
: ) Elias
This has to be one of the best plans out there. 95th Street needs more service and the M could easily fill in. having the W and B available on the West End gives riders a teriffic option of 6th avenue or broadway. Very well thought out indeed.
This is exactly what should be done! Excellent plan. I hope someone at the TA will see this.
Switch your D and Q - the D run's already long enough. :)
The 4th Av. line does not need 3 night services to Manhattan. It is a flagrant waste of money.
B/D resumes pre 7/22/01 service
N via bridge and B'way express to Astoria (same as weekday W)
Q 57th/7th to Brighton Beach, weekdays (same as diamond Q)
W Astoria/Whitehall St. via Broadway local, weekdays
M midday service to 9th Ave remains
Well, we did something like this already but i'll put my opinions anyway. I'm doing certain lines only.
B: Back to West End same as pre 7/22/01
D: Back to Stillwell Av(if still not open Brighton Beach)same as pre 7/22/01
F,G,V: (F)Culver and Hillside express would return. As for keeping the special E's to 179, I would PROBABLY keep it.
(G): Would be extended to Church Av all times except nights
(V): Would be extended to Kings Hwy weekdays(south terminal), other times 2 Av, would run to 179 St via local
J/Z: Let Z's run express in the peak to B'way Junction & start skip stop at B'way Junction. Move J's to the local track to help M's out between Marcy-Myrtle Av.
N: Would bring it back to the Manhattan bridge via Broadway(stopping at 49 St), 4 Av & Astoria express. I'd rehab the Sea Beach express tracks just in case it is needed.
Q: Stays on the Broadway line via express and via Brighton express, would experiment with weekend Brighton express
W: A big wildcard! I would either
a. Whitehall-Astoria via local
b. Coney Island?-Astoria via Sea Beach either express or local
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Flatbush41: Your plan passes muster with me. Doesn't that thrill you? BTW, 41 was the number Clem Labine wore when he played for the Brooklyn Dodgers from 1951-1957. I met him and had a picture taken with him. A great guy.
Thanx for the compliment!
Well then no one said all trains should run at all times yes keep the N to use the tunnel at night and the D for bridge.
I guess I havent received reviews on the number lines see what you guys can do on the number lines.
Here is another thing:
The New Lots line can this go to the airport or at least close enough via Pitkin Ave.
Have fun with this.
J
1,9: South Ferry would/should become straightened and be 4 track, 2 island platforms so 5's could be extended from Bowling Green to SF(off hours) and provides a direct Lexington Av service to South Ferry instead of walking from Bowling Green and possibly eliminates transferring of trains[depending on your commute]
2,3,4,5: reconfigure the Rogers junction
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Just a test on my new handle changed from ExpressM to "Express M runs on the U and X."
Thanks Dave
Monday I saw 8260 at ENY in the afternoon and in the middle track on the J line.
Robert
What are the WD signals with the single lunar white light you see indicative of? I had originaly thought this meant "Wheel Detector" (see the glossary on this site) but more recently, when I saw them flashing as my 4 train approached 14th street and then we suddenly diverged to the local, I was thinking they might mean "Warning: Diverging". Were these added after the 14th street wreck a few years ago?
thanx
rr
Nope, when you approach them flashing that means you need to slow down to the posted WD speed. When they stop flashing you are safe to pass them without being tripped suddenly, they are used on switches sometimes and on tight curves as well.
And yes.. They were added after the 14th Street disaster.
The WD signal has three aspects:
1) Off = It is sleeping and will not bother you.
2) On = Big Brother has is eye on you. Pass it at the indicated speed.
2) Flashing = Big Brother has his hammer out, and he is going to SMASH you BIE if you do not SLOW DOWN at once, and pass it at the respectable speed indicated.
Unlike other speed control signals. the WDs time the speed of EVERY wheelset on your train, so if you pick up speed again too soon, Big Brother is going to SLAM you BIE with his nasty hammer.
(I am *certain* that the rule book uses slightly different language, but the meaning is the same.)
Elias
Actually, it always starts out flashing as you enter the block. You look for the actual wheel sensing devices on the rails (I call them "clamps" as that's what it looks like). When you pass over these, it shouls stop flashing if you are going slow enough. If not, then grab more brake.
LOVED your analysis. :)
Wheel Detectors are different out on the Realroads : )
Out here, the train detectors count every wheel set to cross them, they will report (mechanically, by radio) to the train crew the number of wheelsets on the train, if any are overheated (brakes or journals) and if there is any dragging equipment.
If you pass a working detector and do not receive a report, you must stop your train, and walk it down manually to check for these things. You must also stop and walk it down if it reports overheating or dragging equipment. It will give you a break and tell you which number wheelset has the problem.
Problem is with a two man crew (and the engineer must stay in the cab) the conductor has to walk down the train, one mile to the back, and another mile up to the front on the other side. Snowdrifts notwithstanding this blows the shedule into next week and back. And besides, by the time he gets to the overheated wheelset, it has cooled down and so he cannot find it anyway.
At least they do not loose their jobs for being stopped or delayed by these things.
Elias
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT, DIVISION ONE, TRANSIT COURT
JUDGE RAIL BARON, PRESIDING
"The defendant shall rise. RonInBayside, you have been convicted of harboring a wife who has accepted a superior job offer in Kansas City, KS. How do you plead?"
"Guilty, your honor. May it please the court, I have mitigating circumstances."
"These are not acceptable! RonInBayside, I sentence you to relocate to Kansas City. As part of your sentence, you may not ride any MTA or SEPTA rail or bus vehicle within the Kansas City area. Attempting to board PATH or PATCO anywhere within the KC city limits is strictly forbidden and may result in lengthening your sentence.
However, in the interests of justice and mercy, this Court will permit you to board the buses of the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority. You may also ride Amtrak to St. Louis or Chicago according to Amtrak's schedule, and have access to rail transit in those cities when you do.
And may God have mercy on your soul."
"Your honor, may in please the court,"
"Silence! Bailiff, remove the prisoner!"
By the way, Kansas City Transit is at:
http://www.kcata.org/
Plead insanity.
We will all back you up.
My wife knew that about me - why else would she marry me?
Uh...I feel for you. I suppose that means you'll be changing your handle.
:-) Andrew
KCS is a fine railroad, run by the MoPac mob. Get in with them and you'll get away with anything! A true Bluebird is fearless.
Ron -- where are you now? I seem to remember it was Philly? KC is not a bad place to move to, if you get to escape Philly.
AEM7
Yes, I live in Germantown. Iown two sides of a twin. Want to buy them?
Looks like you'll get well acquainted with the Southwest Chief or the Ann Rutledge followed by the Lakeshore Limited, Capitol Limited, or the Three Rivers (depending on your ultimate destination). KC's not that bad a place from what I hear... only been there once, and that was just passing through when driving back from Denver following 9/11.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True enough. I've been on the Southwest Chief and like it. Never been on the Ann Rutledge though...
Oh, and my biggest challenge now is I have to relearn how to drive a car. I HAVEN'T OPERATED A CAR REGULARLY SINCE HIGH SCHOOL.
Hey, I just got my driver's licence. If I can drive in Boston, then you can drive in Kansas City -- it's hellovalot easier!
AAAAAAGGGHH! Nuts! Just when I was about to give in and agree you can model anything! Can your wife have Kansas City SIMULATED for her and stay here instead?
If it's any consolation, I just moved here from Cincinnati. They were losing headway on getting ONE light rail line, and now the council of governments is going for several (see ntward.com, David Cole's site, for update), including subway tunnels abandoned in the 20's. So be an advocate. And try to move into the Country Club area if at all possible.
nthward.com, not ntward, is the link.
I'm not clear on something: You live in KC?
A virtual KC sounds nice. A recent consulting contract did have me working for the University of Pittsburgh, while sitting in Philly.
The thought that my life as I know it is over had crossed my mind...:0)
You're right though - plenty of room for advocacy. Your comment about the Country Club area is noted. Thanks.
No, I've been through. I know the status of cities from a couple decades ago from being a city planner then. I just came here (NYC) from Cincinnati, which had the potential of being a fabulous, beautiful city, had it been populated by the residents of, say, Philadelphia instead of the current population.
Actually, I don't have any information on my site regarding Cincinnati transit. You may be thinking of www.cincinnati-transit.net, which I have a link to on my "Union Station" page.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Well if you have to go there, you should eat here:
Authur Bryant's
Thank you; I'll definitely try it.
When my wife and I went for interviews, we were treated to dinner at Plaza III Steakhouse. My God, seven of us must have eaten a whole cow, along with one-pound baked potatoes, bowls of steamed asparagus, and enough dessert to feed an army.
The portions there are HUGE. If it's the two of you there, just get one order of fries, even then you might not be able to finish it all.
-Larry
>>> seven of us must have eaten a whole cow <<<
If you are a red meat eater, KC is known for its steaks (as well as crazy little women there).
Tom
I am, and did enjoy myself quite thoroughly. Unfortunately I also caught hell from my internist afterward. :0)
A great steak house is the Hereford House on 35th and Main. Best damn fillet mignon I ever had (I lived in KC for 5 months in 1998 while doing a VA Hospital residency). In the suburb of Olathe Kansas, go to Barley's Brewhouse, which has several hundred great imported beers on tap.
I believe Johnson County Kansas was trying to run commuter trains from Olathe on BNSF tracks to KC Union Station when I lived there. Does anyone know the progress?
I note your culinary suggestions with great anticipation.
Congratulations on having survived a VA enslavement, er, residency. :0)
(Actually, my wife spent time in a VA hospital in Cincinnati as a medical student. Most deserving and appreciative patients she's encountered. Made up for al the (temporary) hardship.
The webpage for the Hereford House is www.herefordhouse.com
KC is only 4+ hours to St. Louis, and I think you will like its Metrolink LRT. Although it uses light rail vehicle, it is more of a mixture of commuter train, rapid transit, and interurban on the journey to Belleville IL.
You can get cheap fares on Southwest Airline to Chicago Midway from KC and explore its L and Metra commuter trains. CTA Orange line goes to Midway. I live and work in the far northwest Chicago suburbs, and can recommend good restaurants and scenic Metra lines if you are interested.
Thank you. I've bookmarked it.
Bryant's hasn't been the same since the old man died years ago. Daughter took it over but since she cleaned the floors and counters, the food never tasted the same.
Ha!
Does she wash the dishes, too? :0)
I'm not sure whether to issue you condolences, wish you good luck on your move or confiscate your passport!
Well, if you get homesick for some NYC subway travel, you can always catch the video.
So, sorry you're moving out of the area, good luck with your move and be sure to leave your passport at the door when you exit ....
--Mark
Thanks, Mark.
I don't get it, Ronnie.
What don't you get? :0)
To me, driving is a chore (I got my license in high school, but never really used it). Now I will have to do it on a regular basis...
Is this some court issue with your wife? Are you two divorced? I apologize whole-heartedly if I am getting into your personal ife.
"Is this some court issue with your wife? Are you two divorced?"
No, but if I want to stay married it would be best if I accompanied her to Kansas City.
>>> if I want to stay married it would be best if I accompanied her to Kansas City. <<<
That might have been a hard choice from NYC, but since you have already moved to Philly, you might as well go along to KC. (Next stop, Albuquerque??) :-)
Tom
If we miss that left turn we might end up there. It's OK, a certain rabbit traveling with a duck will point us in the right direction. :0)
Ron, I used to be a developer in Kansas City. I still know the area pretty well and my wife has a law school classmate living there.
Somewhere in Johnson County, KS is where you want to live. Overland Park is a very nice, upscale town south of downtown KC. Olathe is also nice but IMO not as nice as OP. Mission, Mission Hills, and Prarie Village are also nice, older than OP. Leawood and Lenexa are nice. Given a choice, if you can afford it, OP is where you want to live.
Avoid the Missouri side of KC.
I'm in St. Louis so if you're passing through this way or want to talk about your move, drop me a private e-mail and I'll send you my phone number.
Thank you. I'll do that!
Good Luck! When's the big move?
December. My wife (she's a doc too) has to start work in Jamnuary. We just mailed a mountain of paperwork (credentialing, licensing, etc.) to prepare for this.
>>> We just mailed a mountain of paperwork (credentialing, licensing, etc.) to prepare for this. <<<
Is it relatively easy to obtain a new license in another jurisdiction? Do you just have to prove good standing where you are now, or is there retesting or local residency?
Tom
When you apply for your very first license, in most states, you must have graduated from medical school and completed at least one year of a post-grad residency program. This harkens back to the very old days when a one-year internship is all most docs had after med school. You must pass a set of three exams which today are called USMLE Parts 1-3(US Medical Licensing Examination), or must be a diplomate of the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME-older set of exams, now superceded). My wife and I are in the latter category. In Texas, they used to require a monster test called FLEX (three and a half days long). FLEX is now no longer used; foreign students used to take it in place of the NBME. They also took something called ECFMG (now everyone can take USMLE).
For subsequent licenses, you need only have endorsements sent by these testing bodies, your other states where you have a license, and your medical school transcript or diploma. But this varies by state.
All states want to know if you have a criminal record or are being sued, or have settled lawsuits or have judgments entered against you.
In Pennsylvania, I filled out an hour's worth of paperwork, paid $20 and was mailed my license in 3 weeks (of course, getting malpracticew insurance in Pennsylvania is a killer). In New Jersey, by contrast, the Board of Medicine wants to know where you went to college, what grades you got, endorsents from other physicians, ad nauseum. It's a whole song and dance.
If you choose to work with the federal government (armed forces, National Disaster Medical System - I've done that, public health service etc.) you need only have one valid state license. You can then practice medicine in all 50 states, DC and the territories, or overseas if that's where they post you.
A separate license (DEA) is required to prescribe controlled substances, such as narcotics, stimulants like amphetamines, or cocaine (yes, cocaine is legal - 2% solution in water used as local anesthesia for nose jobs. Very effective and safer in some respects than using lidocaine with epinephrine. But it's not popular, for obvious reasons).
>>> cocaine is legal - 2% solution in water used as local anesthesia for nose jobs <<<
Yo man, I hear you. Out here in Hollywood we have plenty of people using cocaine to anesthesize their noses, and they don't even bother going to a doctor. :-)
Tom
You remember about people saying "...like I need another hole in my head.."
Great way to accomplish that right there (big jagged one right between the nostrils - but make sure your coke is pure enough first)...:0)
Ron:
I live out in the country about an hour from KC, 30 minutes from my job in Lawrence, KS.
My girlfriend lives near the plaza in KC. All that equals over 15K miles/year on my vehicle.
Yes, there are plenty of positives to living around here, but public transportation
is NOT one of them. One thing you definitely want to avoid is a living/working combo
that will include driving North on I-35 to get to work in the morning.
I used to live in the Bay Area and rush hour Bay Bridge traffic wasn't even as bad as
I-35 traffic is during rush hours in KC.
One good thing: you can usually get a round trip flight to NYC for less than 200 bucks,
which I do at least twice a year just to satisfy my 'public transit jones.'
Good luck,
Mike
I have to agree with you, there. There are places where "public transportation" simply means driving your car on a public thoroufare.
Johnson County is one of those places.
I have to agree with you, there. There are places where "public transportation" simply means driving your car on a public thoroughfare.
Johnson County is one of those places.
You do know that if u plead guity, they will throw away the key, which u will misses your all time favorites!..."MTA NEW YORK CITY TRANSITS."
Yes, indeed. Sad but true (sniff...)
Sad enough! u won't be able to ride the first North Side MannyB Train; Ride your first R160; Ride the new subway lines in the future, ride the upcoming 2nd Subway. But u may have those chances, if your appeal is good.
ANY SUGESTION?...PLEAD INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!
Maybe the 7 could run a little FURTHER west of the convention center and pick up KC. It's not THAT much more ambitious.
Or maybe extend the Boonton Line? What fare zone would that be, and how much would a monthly pass cost?
:0)
Fun Pass. Three times a day, minimum.
You have my sympathy. I don't think I could bear to live in a city without electric rail transit. I made the move from Chicago to San Diego in 1978, but fortunately, the San Diego Trolley was in the final planning stage, and I got to witness the first spike being pounded into place on C Street some months later.
The last time I was in Kansas City was June 1957, for the final few days of streetcar operation. A rail trip to St. Louis and Kansas City was my high school graduation gift to myself.
My condolences! It's Philly's loss and KC's gain, but at least you'll still be here on SubTalk. If there's any silver lining, at least Chicago won't be too far away.
And may God have mercy on your soul...
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Thanks, Dave!
So, how's it going? Had a Philly cheesesteak yet?
Had a Philly cheesesteak yet?
Are you kidding?? I just set up my new mailing address c/o Jim's Steaks at 4th and South Streets, and I've already gotten some of my furniture moved into their dining room. :-)
Things are going well here... Work and school are both keeping me insanely busy (I should be working on a school project as I type this), but not in a bad way. I'm two months into my new job and I don't hate it yet, which is far more than I can say about the past few jobs I've had, and so far I'm staying on top of my classes. In fact, we just had midterms at Drexel -- I can't believe the quarter has flown by so fast. If this pace keeps up, I'll have my degree by next week.
In what little spare time I have, I've become pretty active with a small Episcopal church on the UPenn campus and its campus ministry group, and I try to make it up to New York City whenever I can. (Ack! It's been almost a month since I've ridden the NYC subway... must... return... soon... feeling.... faint..... and ........ dizzy..........)
To be brutally honest, I don't miss Chicago one bit. It's still a great city, but I wore out my welcome there about three years ago. Moving out here was the best decision I've made in a long time.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
And we gotta get you south of the Mason-dixon line to visit America's First DOWNTOWN Streetcar Museum - Baltimore Streetcar Museum as well as Baltimore's other rail museum (B&O)and our rail (and bus - ugh!) transit system, plus DC and the Metro are just 35 miles down the road.
Good for you!
I hear you about homework. Subtalk is great, but you gotta pay attention to the real world once in a while. Good luck with school.
Saw this item in the current issue of the Straphanger's Compain electronic newsletter:
"Groups Urge City to Continue Rail Freight Effort
Last week, a group of 21 New York City-based community and
transportation groups sent a letter to Mayor Bloomberg that
emphasized the benefits of a cross-harbor rail freight tunnel."
Further in the text of the article it says that the projected cost of the tunnel from Bay Ridge to NJ has balloned from $2 to 7 B. The was no explaination for the huge cost increase.
Mayor Mike has let this project drop off his radar screen.
It's probably lost in some mix of PA squabbling. they are going ahead and fixing clearances on the hudson line south to oak pond and fresh pond. it's far more likely we'll see longer, more CSX/CP trains than it is that we'll ever see a freight tunnel crossing. the the harbor...
Isn't it faster to barge across from Greenville?
Do you think it would cost 7 BILLION $ to re-open the P'town bridge? Compared to a rail freight tunnel, even at 1 billion, restoring bridge service would be a deal.
Yes, I do, considering that the Poughkeepsie bridge (a) was never designed to hold the weight of double-stack freight, (b) the ROW is almost all in private hands now and would cost a small fortune to re-acquire, (c) the additional ROW acquisition and construction costs, not to mention the operational costs due to elevation changes (required to connect the West Shore line to the bridge) that would make Tehachapi look like child's play, and (d) extensive rework of highways on both sides of the bridge to clear double-stack trains. I'd love to see it happen, but it's not a realistic scenario.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the tappan zee is ever replaces as they say they will, provisions for a rail line on the bridge have been proposed. this is far more likely than p'keepsie bridge ever seeing another train. we'll see...
First, who said the line would need to handle double stuck trains. NYC proper is not a container terminal and has no need of such trains. Intermodal traiffic to Boston runs via Albany which, if you look at a map, itsn't that much longer distance wise.
Second, container trains are typically much lighter than like coal or mineral trains. The bridge should be able to handle them no problem.
RoW aqqusition might cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but compared to a tunnel it would be cheap.
The freight line would not connect to the Hudson Line, it would run through and connect with the Harlem Line.
(The freight line would not connect to the Hudson Line, it would run through and connect with the Harlem Line.)
Freight trains through Scarsdale and Bronxville? Forget it.
The $1 billion was a political figure, not a real figure.
a) - wrong. go for a drive on the LIE and you will know why you're wrong. LI needs a container terminal. there's a prelim' plan to build one at the old pilgram state hospital site, and more money is being spent on adjusting clearances.
b)larry's right - big freight through bronxville? forget nimbys, think very, very, very wealth politically connected nimbys.
it would be nice to see the bridge used again, but it'd also be nice to have a second av line, etc...
Does LI need a container port where ships unload containers bound for the inland USA? NO, of course not. LI is extremely isolated and unloading cargo onto it would be a nightmare. Does LI need an intermodal hub for local container freight originating from more than like 500 miles away? I don't know, but if it did I doubt it would really need double stack trains.
I also don't think that 2-4 or so intermodal trains a day on the harlem line would upset anyone. They are fast, not that loud or rumbly (like a coal train) and could possibly be run mid-day to eliminate any serious objections. The little extra noice they do create would be more than offset by the decrease in truck volume on the Thruway/Tappen Zee.
You are also forgetting that a good deal of the bridge traffic would continue on along the old Bridge Route into Connecticut and possibly onto Springfield/Boston bypassing the snooty areas completely.
The original push for the Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel by Congressman Nadler and others was because of the development of the so-called "super-freighters" that can carry more cargo at one time but need deeper channels at port to operate during loading and unloading.
Because of the angle of the main channel from the Lower New York Harbor up the Hudson, the Brooklyn piers around Bush Terminal are more suited as a port for these new generation ships than the current container ports on the New Jersey side. And the ability to handle the ships would mean more jobs within the city -- certainly something New York can't turn up its nose at given the current economic situation.
That's why the harbor tunnel was designed to go to Brooklyn, because it would be used as much for moving freight out of New York City to the rest of the country as it would moving freight into the city, since the super freighters would have only two East Coast port options -- New York and Norfolk (Charleston too, but only with a lot of dredging). Running a freight line across the Hudson via Albany or Poughkeepsie would create a ridiculously roundabout route to the Brooklyn piers (let alone the suburban NIMBY protests) and make any deep water port there financially unfeasable.
Given a $7 billion price tag, I doubt the thing will ever be built, anyway, unless it's someone's idea of trying to "highball" the federal government for a partial share of the project, in hopes that it would actually fund a higher percentage if the tunnel actually came in at a cost of $2-$4 billion. But right now the feds are only predisposed to given New York City extra allocations for projects that can be linked to the WTC area, and the Cross Harbor Tunnel doesn't qualify.
The whole evolution of ocean shipping started from piers, warehouses and docks that were basically a part of the city. Goods were unloaded haphazzardly with about 20-50% getting skimmed off the top by longshoremen, organized crime and local officials. Today, time have changed. Go down to like Front St. in Philly and you see there old "piers" and you are like "piers, that the heck are those things for?" Instead of the old harbour->docks->city->trade/commerce model we invented the concept of containerized freight. The hallmark of this was that containerized freight was totally unsuited for the old dock system. You needed acres and acres and acres of vacent flat land for container loading, unloading, storage and transfer. Easy access to both railroads and interstates.
This is why the shipping industry in NYC was doomed. While NYC was great for the dock and pier model (it has a helluva lot of water front), it sucks for the containerized model as NYC has no flat open space and is geograpically isolated from the transportation system. This is why we see such shipping in Newark/Elizabeth, Camden NJ and south philly to name a few.
Trying to return ocean shipping to NYC proper is stupid. It is something that the city is no longer suited for. The rail freight improvement should be based on actual issues, not pipedreams.
I think the tie of the tunnel to shipping in the harbor is only a secondary issue. CP has already hooked up with NY & Atl to move freight THRU new york, but the current problem between NYC & Cross Harbor has stalled any major effort to increase the traffic.
NY & Atl would also love to get traffic from the West & South for Long Island via the Hudson Rv.
So, you have three reasons for this tunnel: Traffic 1. Thur 2. For LI & 3. to/from ships
I understand that the STB is still thinking about the adverse abandonment -- I think that's what they call it -- proceeding.
As I said, it's the accessability to ports of the "super cargo" ships that has brought about the idea of a Brooklyn port revival. You could probably get the ships to Elizabeth or even up the Deleware to Philly, but it would take a ton of dredging and you would have to do it over, and over, and over, and over again. The flow of the Hudson out towards the Atlantic and the angle it cuts across the Upper Harbor helps keep that channel clear and is what makes the Brooklyn port idea and the Harbor Tunnel in any way workable.
On the space problem, you are right -- to handle those containers ships major changes would have to be made to the Bush Terminal area, which would more than likely involve clearing off the land from the docks to the Gowanus and from at least 30th to 62th streets to handle the off/on loading of the ships (let alone the rail spur off the new tunnel and the NY&A that would have to reach the area). No doubt the NIMBY factor would be something fierce on this one, and the city would have to either fight them off or buy them off, possibly with that underground Gowanus project that's been kicking around.
But add that to the Harbor Tunnel cost, if it really is $7 billion, and you'd be looking at a project of Big Dig proportions. Maybe when one of the New York congresspeople gets to be Speaker of the House like Boston's Tip O'Neal in the 1980s the city can get that kind of infrastructure cash thrown its way, but not right now.
Those boats ARE comming to philly/camden. Its not a maybe at this point.
The 6,000 unit capacity container ships? The "Suez-Max" ships need about a 60-foot channel depth, and I didn't realize they could get those as far up Deleware Bay as Philly. The "PanaMax" ships are a little smaller and don't need as deep a channel.
Hasn't the PA dredged the approaches to Port Elizabeth at least twice to increase their depth?
Yes, and they'd have to dredge it even more for the new ships, and continue dregding because Elizabeth is off the main channel flow/depth area of the Hudson in the Upper Bay, and would have to continue to re-dregde the area to keep it from silting up.
Compaired to a $7 billion price tag on the Harbor Tunnel, that might not look like a bad investment, but the other problem could be the traffic patters in the Upper Bay having to cross ships that size from the Narrows over to New Jersey.
Agreed. I believe the channel depth iscurrently 45 feet. What do they need now, around 60 feet?
The so-called "Suez-Max" cargo ships (named because their the biggest ships that can get through the Suez Canal) do need about 60 feet of water when fully loaded. The other problem with the ships, as far as the New Jersey side of the Upper Bay goes, is their stacking above the water line can mean some ships are as much as 150 feet tall from water level to mast top, which could cause problems trying to get the ship to any dock in Elizabeth that's not on the east side of the Bayonne Bridge (with either "crunch" or "timber" being the result if they did try) even if the channel was dredged to 60 feet.
That does present a problem, doesn't it?
as an aside, I understand these ships encounter difficulty in rough seas and storms. Instead of delivering cargo, they engage in the creation of artificial reefs, which their insurers have to pay for...
OK OK already.
We need more rail tunnels to New Jersey!
No doubt about it.
But let us spen our money wisely!
We need a tunnel that will do MORE than just handle a few freight trains!
Return again to my plan, and look at its advantages:
1) It serves downtown with MAJOR LIRR and NJT service
2) It serves both Newark and LaGuardia Airports with a direct downtown connection.
3) It can carry high capacity freight across existing tracks to the ship terminals in question.
If we let Joe Bruno take credit for it then maybe it will be finished by the end of the year.
: ) Elias
reread my post... take a drive on the LIE, visit bronxville. i have nothing more to say.
Drive on the LIE? Not. Not. Not.
Does the phrase "World's Longest Parking Lot" ring a bell?
The freight line would not connect to the Hudson Line, it would run through and connect with the Harlem Line.
My concern is with the connection on the western shore of the Hudson, not the eastern shore. Either you build a giant Tehachapi-style loop to connect or you practically end up in Albany to make the connection at that end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And also, in the context where a tunnel would make sense (moving freight from NJ to Long Island), Pgh is already considerably more than halfway to Selkirk. And it's the difficult (congested) half.
Exactly. I grew up in the shadow of that bridge and I would like nothing better than to see it renovated, but I'm also realistic enough to know that it ain't gonna happen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Definitely not after that loony in Highland got involved. :(
You don't connect it there at Poughkeepsie! You either run it through to the Harlem line at Brewster or make a right at Hopewell Jct and run it down the MNRR branch to Beacon where you can get on the Hudson line if you really really have to.
You don't connect it there at Poughkeepsie!
Mike, did you even bother to read my post? I'm NOT CONCERNED with the EASTERN (POUGHKEEPSIE) side of the Hudson - connecting through Hopewell Junction would be just fine. I'm talking about the WESTERN (HIGHLAND) side of the river.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, my bad. From what has been said before I got the impression that the big RoW issue was on the eastern side of the River. The western connection would be on the Southern Tier Line at Cambell Hall via Maybrook. The line is still in use to Maybrook I believe and maybe a little farther on.
The Southern Tier line is fully cleared for double stacks and is currently under utilized by NS. It would be an excellent choice for a new freight link into NYC.
There are significant ROW issues on both sides, but there is an immediate ROW problem practically adjacent to the bridge on the Highland side. The issues on the eastern side of the bridge are mainly reconfigured highways that would have to be re-reconstructed to provide a reasonable grade for a railroad overpass (Manchester Bridge, just east of Poughkeepsie, comes immediately to mind), whereas the problems on the western side of the bridge are ones of clearance (marginal for even plate F boxcars, let alone double stacks) and implementation of a connection to the West Shore line, if that were to be the desired configuration.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You want to run the traffic on the Tier?
No wonder CSX loves this idea.
Since there's a connection from Selkirk Yard to the Hudson line just south of Rensselaer, that's close enough in "railroad time" and it's already there. With all the paranoia and hoohah around New York City these days, knocking freight cars close to the city probably won't happen anyway ...
"Since there's a connection from Selkirk Yard to the Hudson line just south of Rensselaer, that's close enough in "railroad time" and it's already there."
But the trouble is that it doesn't seem to be close enough. Let's forget about Manhattan since it's so congested and unusual. But Long Island (including Queens and Brooklyn) has a far lower percentage of freight handled by rail than the rest of the country.
Shippers don't ship by rail to Long Island now. They ship to NJ and truck it the rest of the way. This results in serious costs to the regional economy and adds tremendously to road congestion in NYC. A harbor tunnel could fix that.
Believe it or not, I agree ... however, now that we're in "wet bedsheets" as a political existence, I can't see how they'd want to cut or add cars close enough to the city in general to make that work. And Long Island and Brooklyn DO have freight service available via Hellgate already, and CP is a major shipper.
Dunno if you know this or not, but the REASON why the Selkirk yard and the Chicago line in general is *SO* busy (trains every 3 minutes night and day) is because that SAME paranoia has much of America's import/export diverted to CANADA and then run down to the city area by train from up here and from way down south. So yeah, the harbor tunnel may cut some time for what comes up out of the south, but shippage from the west and the north comes through here ANYWAY, so we've already got a bridge between hither and yon that works just fine.
I'd have no objections to the harbor tunnel either, but it sounds like you guys can't afford one. And Paturkey's already handed out the treasury to anyone who would endorse him. Since trains can't vote, my guess is that tunnel's dead ...
[Shippers don't ship by rail to Long Island now. They ship to NJ and truck it the rest of the way. This results in serious costs to the regional economy and adds tremendously to road congestion in NYC.
A harbor tunnel could fix that.]
Even the most out of touch in NYC would agree with that, so why isn't there more support for it ?
Then you add incresed business to the Port of NY, and freight traffic thur NYC (over the Hell Gate Bridge) ... seems like a win win win ?
There's no political support for doing anything that would improve the regional economy. The rich are already rich. The middle class don't want their taxes raised. The poor know that any new jobs will go to somebody else.
[There's no political support for doing anything ... about a Hudson Rv tunnel]
Unfortunately, you may be correct.
However if the TBTA starts talking about the need to replace all the bridges do to the ware & tare on them because of all these trucks, THEN we might see some serious consideration for the tunnel.
The is also the City Planning Dept. interest in developing that part of Brooklyn ... a new RxR tunnel would help that effort. But then maybe the Planning group just wants NY Cross Harbor out of there so they can put up fancy houses ????
"However if the TBTA starts talking about the need to replace all the bridges do to the ware & tare on them because of all these trucks, THEN we might see some serious consideration for the tunnel."
The TBTA has been replacing the bridges and tunnels one piece at a time (cables, roadway, etc.) since the end of the 1970s fiscal crisis.
Yes, you are correct, e.g. Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro, etc.
But Mayor Mike's budget can't stand another round of this.
Maybe, just maybe it might move the tunnel proposal off the back burner.
"Yes, you are correct, e.g. Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro, etc."
Actually, none of those is a TBTA Bridge. They are operated by NYC DOT. It's the QM Tunnel, the Triboro, the Whitestone, Throgs Neck, etc. that are the TBTA bridges.
Right again. I should have taken a few extra moments to get the details streight.
My reference to the Manhattan & Williamsburg of course relates to nycDOT and mass transit which also uses those bridges.
Add to the list the George Washington bridge which is now getting a bunch of work done on it. That bridge & the Cross Bronx get a lot of truck traffic 24 hours a day. If a potion of the trucks were turned into rail traffic maybe you & I could use it without long delays.
I am currently working on New York City's new base map, and while reviewing the area around Jerome Av. at E. 204th St. in the Bronx, I ran across the following:
There is an arc-shaped lot on the east side of Jerome Av. just south of E. 204th St, occupied by a 1-story retail outlet. This is where the (4) line returns to Jerome Av. after leaving the right of way near the Bedford Park Blvd. station. The lot is placed so as to suggest that there was a spur line continuing straight at the point where the line curves to rejoin Jerome Av. The pattern traces as far as the southwest corner of Grand Concourse and E. 204th St.
Does anyone know of any such spur line in the past? According to our Sanborn fire-insurance maps, the building on the lot was built in 1924, whereas the city's records have 1931. The photos showing the nearby yard do not suggest that the connection between the yard and the (B)(D) line runs under the lot.
Thanks for your responses.
Bob Sklar
Uhmm.. Paging TrainDude!!!
9074-75 are on the road with overhauled trucks. That's a surprise to me, because I assumed the shop wasn't doing any major repairs on cars scheduled for the reef. Perhaps 9074-75 will be getting a repreive of sorts?
-Stef
While waiting for a downtown #6 train at Canal Street on Saturday, there went by a train of #5 Redbirds, some of which had flat wheels. Boy was that loud! I didn't get unit numbers, but perhaps these overhauled trucks were originally part of that consist?
--Mark
?
I can't say for sure. If the cars are going to run for a while longer, they'll need reliable trucks.
-Stef
Would this pair be assigned to 239th by chance?
Somebody's wish list coming to life? >HMM<
A reprieve from the reef!
;-) Sparky
Eh? Anything's possible. Juice man is pulling strings. I'd welcome a pair at BERA if we could find some place to store them....
A reprieve seems likely for the mean time, I'd say they might be a candidate for work service. We shall see.
-Stef
Stef,
Your pessimistic and realistic together about "Juice Man's" wish.
Have to forward you something FYI and look for your unbiased
attitude off this board.
;-) Sparky
Weather brought the Eurostar to a halt:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Weather brought the Eurostar to a halt: article on cnn.com with details.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know when the Miss subways campaign ended?
I'm doing research for a book and need this detail.
Thanks so much
>>> Does anyone know when the Miss subways campaign ended? I'm doing research for a book and need this detail <<<
Yes, 1969. But good research technique would include checking this date with a source such as the NY Times index for the year. I am sure there was some story at the time which would mark the final contestant.
Tom
No! Miss Subways ended in 1976. I just looked at some NY Times and Daily News articles in the 70s that stated this. Unfortunately, neither stated WHEN in 1976 the campaign ended.
--Mark
>>> No! Miss Subways ended in 1976. <<<
That's the problem with trying to do research on the internet. I got my ending date from a website. GIGO :-)
Tom
And in a few weeks, you'll be able to look that up here on THIS one :) :)
--Mark
No one took me up on the offer of trying to remember who Mary Austin was, Miss Rheingold 1952. Wow, was she was beautiful girl and at a time when girls didn't interest me in the least. But I said to myself, boy I'd like to have a girl like that some day. Then it came to me the other day. I remembered seeing a picture of Miss Rheingold, 1963, which to this day is my favorite year. Her first name was Loretta. Can't remember the last name, but by then my interest in the fair sex had come of age. Wow again, what an angel. Now they don't have those Miss this or that anymore because the women libbers thinks it's sexist and because most of them look like they belong on a wrestling mat.
The girl of your dreams is Loretta Russel. My unimpeachable source is the Rheingold ad on the back page of the 1963 Mets Yearbook. She has a Mets hat on with the Old Perfessor (Casey Stengel) right behind her.
Miss Rheingold 1962 is Kathy Kersh.
I just grabbed a handful of books to post this response. 1964 ad showed a half-filled glass mug......No ad in 1965, but 1966 through 1972 had Neon signs, beer mugs, etc. No mention of Miss Rheingold.
It was curious looking through the 1965 book. King Korn Stamps, Bohacks, Franklin National Bank and many other forgotten things. How about a Filet Mignon dinner at Childs Steak House for $ 2.95 ? LOL
Hart Bus: Thanks a lot. That is what I remember also from the '63 yearbook which I got just because I fell in love with her picture. I thought, now that you have informed me, that her last name was Rissel, not Russel. Still, I'll accept your help here and thank you a lot. Now if I only knew what happened to her I would write her and ask for her autograph. What a doll she was.
Does Linda know all about this?:)
No, she does not----and you keep quiet about all this. My wife thinks I do not even think of other woman. I do think about them, Steve,like I'm sure you as a cool man-about-town bachelor does. That's as far as it goes with me. I don't lust for them, but I like looking at attractive women and talking to them as I did in restaurants when I was in the city. But that's as far as it goes. Besides, in 1963 I didn't know my wife existed, she was only 15 and living in the Midwest. Remember, keep this under your hat.
Dang! And we were like, SO waiting to hear you say "I lust in my heart" so we could open up a can of Carter's nuts for ya. :)
Hey Fred, it's like art ... you can look at it all you like but you can't touch it. Good for keeping your peripheral vision in proper order :)
--Mark
Thanks Mark for your moral support. We males have certain vibes that just cannot pass up looking at a nice lady. And I do like looking and talking to nice women, so long as I behave myself and for 32 years I have. Never would betray my Linda, never.
My lips are sealed.
That's what friends are for Steve. Just remember that if you ever run into me with my wife along.
I'll tell Linda you can spot subway rats a mile away, even in the Montague St. tunnel.:)
Linda already knows it. I have a confession, however. I didn't think I would see any to be honest with you. I just got lucky a few times. Believe me, I'm convinced that tunnel is rat haven. I wonder how those little bastards survive down there. Some must get hit my trains. When I watched Pelham 1 2 3 I looked for some but I knew I wouldn't find them. I even wondered if it was a real subway tunnel. Anyway, I got my jollies when he traversed the Montague but I will still hold out for getting my train out of that filth infested rathole.
The original Pelham was filmed on the New York subway all right, mostly in the tunnels leading to Court St. There is a brief snippet of the Murray Hill tunnel, the segment of the original Contract One line between Grand Central and 33rd St. Of the stations portrayed, 59th St., 23rd St., Union Square, Astor Place, Bleecker St., Spring St., and Canal St. are the real thing. 51st St. is a question mark because at one point you can see a sizeable gap between the side of the train and the edge of the platform. Grand Central and 28th St. are fake; supposedly both were shot at Court St.
BTW, are you familiar with Jan and Dean's tune "Linda"?
My offer still stands to place on the next video you order a short segment of a cute large rat eating his way through a McDonalds bag at 149th St / 3rd Avenue. Just to make you feel like you're back here :)
--Mark
Stills! Teaser! Please!
We can do the slogan as a bumper ... "We love to see rats smile." :)
I’ve taken a step forward and have now become a “bureaucratic government asshole” instead of my usual plain “asshole” title. :-)
At my Georgia DOT job, I’ve been going to job sites inspecting work being done. I feel important because I get to wear a hard hat and a reflective vest and drive a yellow truck. A couple of weeks ago, I went to a site in South Georgia where a county is building a sewer line underneath I-75. The DOT has nothing to do with the project, but since it was going underneath DOT property (the interstate), we had to go out there and see how they were doing it so they don’t screw it up.
We got there the day before drilling began to see the whole setup. The way they were doing it was pretty much a mini version of the TBM used in the Chunnel in Europe and other similar rail tunnels, very cool. The front end of the drill is a two-spoke drill bit with the same looking teeth as on the Chunnel TBM. The diameter is slightly wider than 48”; the sewer will be 48” wide. There is a smaller drill at the bottom used for guiding the slurry to the back. Right behind the drill is a shield that is 50 feet long. The shield is essentially a heavy gauge steel pipe that is wielded to the drill in the front. A pipe for slurry runs along the bottom of the shield. One operator walks through the shield to the front where their entire job is to make sure a laser is pointed on a target, making sure the drill is going in the right direction. They have controls to adjust the direction when needed. It must suck being the front end operator because you are squatting down in a 48” pipe for hours at a time. The entire drilling will be 300 feet in length, when the 50 foot shield is almost underground, they wield another 50 foot shield onto other one. So eventually, the shield will be 300 feet long, allowing the operator to enter and exit at anytime.
At the opposite end of the drilling is the motor which runs it. The engine is a 10 cylinder diesel, but I didn’t ask how powerful it is. The motor stays in the same place the entire time. They add another length of drill shaft that runs down the middle of the shield when the shield needs more lengthening. It’ll take them about a week to drill the entire 300 feet of tunnel, but if they worked 24/7, they could do it in three days.
After drilling is done, they’ll insert concrete pipes into the shield (with the drill removed on the other side, and then slide out the shield. Then they’ll inject grout into the gaps between the pipe and the soil, like they in London with their first Tube lines. The rest of the sewer is being built by cut and cover, so they’ll just connect the ends when they are ready.
Stuff like this is why I am majoring in civil engineering, I hope one day I can be supervising this stuff while building rail lines, designing and building roads and rail have nearly all of the same principles.
Here at MIT in our Civil & Environmental Engineering Department, we have on of the world's experts on tunneling: Herbert Einstein (link here). I've heard him talk about his experiences in planning rail tunnels in Europe, such as through the Alps. Fascinating!
ASk him what he thinks of the Tappan Zee Tunnel proposal.
The Maryland mass Transit Administration just released a 19 page report highlighting the direction that the MTA wants to go in regards to rail transit in the Baltimore Region over the next several decades.
You can read the report at:
www.baltimorerailplan.com
In essence, there will be 6 lines (Red, Orange, Blue, Green, Yellow and Purple) that will radiate in all directions. Portions of the Green Line will incorporate the existing Metro subway and portions of the Blue & Yellow Lines will incorporate parts of the existing Central Light Rail Line.
Here's a brief synopsis:
Red Line--It will run from I-70 and the Social Security complex to the west, through downtown, Fells Point, Dundalk and points east.
Orange Line---This will parrallel the current MARC Camden Line from Camden Station southward to Dorsey.
Blue Line---this line will incorporate the majority of the light rail line, the new twist will be a downtown "loop" of sorts connecting Penn Station with the Inner Harbor area.
Green Line---This line will incorporate the existing Metro from Owings Mills, to Morgan State College, and eventually to White Marsh and Martin State Airport.
Yellow Line---This line will start in Hunt Valley and share track with the Blue Line to a point where it will create a second north/south route through downtown. It will eventually rejoin the present day light rail (Blue) line, than branch off to BWI, and eventually to Savage and several stops in Columbia/Howard County.
Purple Line---This line will parrallel the existing Penn Line of the MARC system from Odenton in the south to Edgewood which is northeast of the city.
Check out the site----they've identified certain lines as priorities (parts of the Red, Green and Purple).
Mark
Don't hold your breath. This is just another rehash of a rail plan first introduced in 1962 and brought back 6 or 7 times since then. Currently, there is neither the copius amounts of money necessary or the rail will at the William Donald Schaefer Tower. The Maryland Transit Adminsitration is first and foremost a bus system. No rail had been added since 1996, and that was the extensions of the Central Light Rail Line. The biggest rail thing on the MTA's plate is the double tracking of the CRLR, a process that according to the MTA started in 2001 and will be completed in 2008.
I've been watching Baltimore transit since 1956, and it's always been bus, bus, bus, bus. Fast forward to 2002 and guess what - it's still bus, bus, bus.
Dan,
You're absolutely right, but, we can dream can't we?
As for the plan, you're right again, there are some amazing similarities between the current Metro/the light rail line, and the original Metro plans of the 60's......
I for one would love to see it come to fruition, but I don't see it happening within my lifetime :(
Mark
Looking through the Final Report, I had trouble figuring out just what mode these lines were supposed to be. I was guessing that the yellow and blue lines would be light rail and the green and red heavy subway lines, based on their use of existing lines, and I made no guesses on the orange and purple lines. However, I read on page 17 this quote:
These new lines would likely be most similar to the look of a MARC train, with some subtle differences, such as additional doors for passenger loading and different seating arrangements. The train would probably be operated by a single conductor and a diesel multiple unit (DMU) of electric multiple unit (EMU) would propel the train.
Is it really wise to try to create a new mode? This reminds me of the Schuylkill Valley Metro. Wouldn't they do better to build upon the modes that are already in use, and for which they can buy off-the shelf rolling stock, etc.?
Mark
Is the renovation of the Grand Central stop on the (7) completed? If it is, I have to say it was a complete waste of money, because the station is nearly as hideous as it was before the renovation.
True, the platform surface has been retiled and there is new lighting. But the lighting is harsh and too bright. The "Grand Central - 42 St" signs hanging from the station walls look cheap and some of them are not hanging straight. The metal circular works of "art" that hang from the ceilings look like fans but are not, they are merely decorative.
They did a much better renovation job at the Grand Central shuttle stop. I hope that the Lex/53 station on the E/V doesn't befall a similar fate as Grand Central.
It's even worse-looking than it originally was, you'd think they could have tiled the walls, maybe they couldn't for some reason...
You're right, let's hope 53rd-Lex comes out better than GC-42nd St
wayne
It's even worse-looking than it originally was, you'd think they could have tiled the walls,
It really is amazing. Especially for such a high use station, and not some far of outpost somewhere in Brooklyn. I have nothing but good things to say about most of the recent renovations. The MTA really messed up with this one though. Hopefully it is not a sign of things to come.
'Hopefully it is not a sign of things to come.'
Deferred Maintenance, perhaps? Scary...
Deferred Maintenance? Ah ha, that's what they call the neglect of the Brooklyn Sea Beach line. I would, however, like to know what they mean by deferred? Deferred to 3001?
Deferred maintenance was the standard policy for a time in the 1960s and 1970s when money became scarce. At first maintenance was sacrificed for the sake of preserving the 15-cent fare, then as the city became more and more strapped for dinero, the policy persisted. Overhauls were halted. Rolling stock was sent out to run and run until failure. The end result was a near-total collapse of the subway system. It's in much better shape now than it has been in years. Now instead of waiting until a vital component fails, components are replaced at regularly scheduled intervals.
Yea right, and I'm Barry Bonds. That's bs doublespeak. That's what the TA always seems to say but it hasn't registered with many lines that have been in dire need of repairs since the cows came home. That is, unless component doesn;t mean refurbishing stations that are coming apart at the seams. Next time you're in the city stifle your impulse to ride the "A" until you take a dingy at the Sea Beach line=========and ride it all the way. Get off at various stations and see for yourself. The first thing you'll notice is that you're not very hungry anymore and afraid to touch anything for fear of some infection hitting you. Your facts are right but those are used by the powers that me as just as excuse to favor their pet lines, and anybody work a tinker's damn knows that as well as I do.
I must have been innoculated because when I videoed most of the stations of the Sea Beach Line this summer, I did not come down with anything :)
--Mark
Fuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyy! Tell me this El Marko, would you go out of your way to have your lovely wife and two wonderful children be caught dead at one of those stations while you wax poetic about the beaauty of the place? No, I didn't think so. I know if I took my wife on a vacation to New York and made her look at some of those stops, the next thing I knew I would be talking to her lawyer.
My kids probably wouldn't mind since riding the subway at the railfan window is a thrill to them (and the slant R-40 has a nice long one that my son can reach) but as for the missus, well, let's just say that subways is a solo hobby for me :)
I do give her credit for trying though. In 1988, we went to the Transit Museum to listen to a lecture on the evolution of the subway map. Arriving a little late, I moved up to the front of the room so I could see the slides better; my wife decided to sit in a row further back in the room. 15 minutes into the lecture, I moved back to see how she was doing. She was fast asleep in the chair!
--Mark
Hey, just the fact that she came along is good....
Good post Mark. Are you sure you're talking about your wife and not mine? Sure sounds the same to me. Ah, what do they know what they're really missing?
Heh ... just for laughs and giggles, went and pulled the political boundaries map for Brooklyn:
http://latfor.state.ny.us/maps/propassem/fanyc.pdf
and then went Assembly district by Assembly district, then followed up Senate district by Senate district. Well now ... whaddya know? Seems the SeaBits runs only through elected democratic districts under a republican MTA. Hmmm. But the REPUBLICAN districts (including new predominantly Hispanic republican districts in the Bronx) are getting all sorts of renovations. Who said politics has no place in the subways? :)
You and Sea Beach Fred seem to forget that the Stillwell project alone is $400 million. 8th Street is being redone, and so is the entire Atlantic Av complex (another $400 million).
So tell me again how that entire section of Brooklyn is neglected? Maybe there's something wrong with other stations having to wait their turns, but I don't remember what the reason is right now - other than keeping Sea Beach Fred from stomping his feet, that is. :0)
You don't know the reason why? How convenient. How about the idea that those areas in Brooklyn are not considered very important to the TA. Is that a possibility. Does that get your mind jogging again? As for Stillwell, let's face it, five trains will go there because it still is a big amusement center, plus a baseball team plays there now. As for Atlantic Avenue, if memory serves me right, it is a big hub for various and sundry businesses in the region. And no I do not stamp my feet. I bite my nails and wail to the moon. Get those facts straight, too.
"As for Stillwell, let's face it, five trains will go there because it still is a big amusement center, plus a baseball team plays there now. As for Atlantic Avenue, if memory serves me right, it is a big hub for various and sundry businesses in the region."
So, in other words, they are the two most important stations in the area, and the TA appropriately began working on them first.
"How about the idea that those areas in Brooklyn are not considered very important to the TA. Is that a possibility. Does that get your mind jogging again? "
If the TA refuses to do any further work on the Sea Beach line or doesn't include it on the 2005-9 Capital Plan, then I'm with you. Otherwise, I liuke my explanation better :0)
Seriously - why not write to the TA and share your thoughts with them...
Ron: Do you think the TA really gives a rat's ass about what a Californian 48 years removed from New York thinks? I have thought about writing to them but think it would be a waste of time. Still.......
Hispanic Republicans districts in the Bronx? Boy, the isolation up there has really gotten to you. I'd love if you were right but aside from the Cubans in Florida Hispanics are not voting for our party, much to my chagrin. If I was head of the RNC bringing the Hispanic vote to our party would be my number one priority 24-7. Republican MTA? Come off it. Where is your proof. I will download that website you gave me and if it is true you will be an apology from me post haste.
That page is just the district lines. You then have to go through each AD and SD, determine the party and how long they've held the area. Many of the districts along the SeaBeach have been democratic since FDR (which is probably also when they were last painted) whereas the districts are more red-colored along those lines that have gotten the repairs.
Paturkey (repub) has been QUITE busy grabbing the Hispanic vote - look at what he did for Dennis Rivera ... but yeah, the South Bronx has republicans in office and renovations along the BEAST (2/5) are now underway with the change in political demarcations. That's how things work in New York. When the 2/5 was in democratic turf, the citizenry were lucky to have platforms to stand on.
Two guys talkin' politics with a dash of transit thrown in seperated by 3000 miles !
You gotta love this board !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Just five days left and then it's back to the boredom of the ME23 AMUE braking head assembly instead of the state assembly. I prefer taking apart the politicians - they're a lot more fun to reassemble with a hammer than some old metal casting. :)
It's the people on board Newkirk. Selkirk and I happen to be two classy people, don't you think?
Shhhhhhh! Next thing ya know, they're gonna try to marry us off. :)
Well, you and Bob are even funnier.
This is a great argument, but you ignore one vital fact: Republicans are traditionally ANTI-transit. First, public transportation tends to benefit lower-income people (despite commuters), and those lower classes have a "nasty habit" of voting for Democrats. Remember that the Capital Improvement Plans began in the 1980s under Cuomo...would a GOP upstater like Bruno have done them? Hell, no.
Second, and most important, in the GOP's eyes, a public transport customer is (frequently) someone who is not driving a car and burning GASOLINE. Need I say more?
--Randy B.
True, but what we have now is "Pander bears" with the repubs trying to outspend the dems ... wait until the bill arrives from the Paturkey lovefest two days after the "State of the State" message in January when "budget school" is held at the capitol. I have friends at Division of the Budget and they're ready to dive out windows there from the numbers they're crunching now to create the document. :(
"Republicans are traditionally ANTI-transit. First, public transportation tends to benefit lower-income people (despite commuters), and those lower classes have a "nasty habit" of voting for Democrats. Remember that the Capital Improvement Plans began in the 1980s under Cuomo...would a GOP upstater like Bruno have done them? Hell, no."
You're argument is far too simplistic. In a town without mass transit, you'd be more on the ball because the GOP wouldn't want to start a new system. But that isn't how NY works.
It's true that the Capital Plan would not have been launched as easily under republican administrations. Recall, though, that big businesses in NY, which support mostly republicans, like mass transit because without it, they can't operate. Sure, upstate republicans will be reluctant to support it (but sometimes upstate ddemocrats aren't friendly either).
Also, any elected official, regardless of party affiliation, needs pork to take home. That's why Frank Padavan, a Republican, asked for, and got, money outside of the Capital Plan to do things like completely renovate and make ADA accessible the Bayside and Auburndale LIRR stations. And Frank Padavan cooperated with Democrats like Mark Weprin to secure more mass transit funds for their districts. Granted, it's not subway money out there - but actually, it is. They supported AirTrain, and supported the MTA's plan to renovate both Howard Beach and Jamaica Station (which includes improvements in subway access).
So while you're right that Republicans generally don't like mass transit spending, don't forget that NYC doesn't completely fit the model...
So while you're right that Republicans generally don't like mass transit spending, don't forget that NYC doesn't completely fit the model...
Also note that new light rail systems have been developed (or soon will be developed) in Republican states such as Utah, Texas, and Arizona.
(So while you're right that Republicans generally don't like mass transit spending, don't forget that NYC doesn't completely
fit the model...Also note that new light rail systems have been developed (or soon will be developed) in Republican states such as Utah, Texas, and Arizona. )
You are giving Republicans and Democrats too much credit for ideologies. It isn't about "what," it's about "who" in exchange for "how much." I got an e-mail from an old mate at City Planning, asking him how many track miles were in the system for a report. I asked if I should include the Cranberry Tunnel now that it is proposed to be reassigned. He said it isn't being reassigned, its being gentrified, and Brooklyn will probably get a new public hospital in exchange.
Amen ... and for those who are happy to re-elect the status quo, an eye for an eye and a check for a favor, but not for you, erection day is just FOUR (count 'em) FOUR days away. Show your appreciation by showing up and VOTING for the pander bear of your choice. :)
I got an e-mail from an old mate at City Planning, asking him how many track miles were in the system for a report. I asked if I should include the Cranberry Tunnel now that it is proposed to be reassigned. He said it isn't being reassigned, its being gentrified, and Brooklyn will probably get a new public hospital in exchange.
ANOTHER hospital? Christ, Brooklyn (and the rest of the city) needs another hospital like Anna Nicole needs another piece of chocolate cake.
I saw a bunch of districts listed but no reps for them. I guess I'm supposed to take your word, as much as I respect it, for what is GOP or Dumcrat. How about listing the districts with their reps and send it E-Mail to me. Then I can see if you are really on the level or are pulling a Hillary Clinton on me.
Did I ever tell you about the dream I had driving a Triplex down 4th Avenue when all of a sudden Hillary appeared in front of me?
Here's the secret decoder ring:
http://latfor.state.ny.us/maps/
Should keep you amused for hours ... since there's a LOT of AD's and SD's to follow, it's quite time consuming to follow da money. I pulled just a couple of spots from 4th Avenue to New Utrecht just to see the historicals, not the whole line (but I generally know the area from doing political reporting over the years) and as to da Bronx, well I lived there - and same deal. The former State Senator from the area went over to the Republican party a year or so ago, thus the largesse. He explained it to his constituents on "we'll get more if I join the senate majority party" and his district was indeed lavished with Brunobucks ...
But no, I have no need to pull a Hillary - New York republicans are plenty zany all by themselves without need of external propulsion. :)
I noticed there are a hell of a lot of Italian-Republicans in the New York State Senate and very few Dago Dems. That's great because there is no group I despise more than Italian-Dems. In the Assembly it is a little closer because many Italian woman, taking leave of their senses, become liberal dorks. Anyway, thanks for the info. You may not know this but the biggest group of converts to the Republican Party in the past 40 years have been my fellow Dagos.
Heh. Kiss me, I'm Irish. I'll tell ya where once I read your response :)
You *do* understand that this is New York ... republicans are the liberals and the democrats are the conservatives here. Me am bizarro. Heh.
Moo.
Selkirk, your Irish humor makes my day. You are priceless. I do look forward to the day when we team up. Watch out New York.
I believe they're prepared. NYC's been on a high state of alert since the LAST time I was down yonder. Moo.
Kevin doesn't deliver comeback darts the way Bob does, though.
Still, the Fred and Kevin Show has potential.:)
>>Did I ever tell you about the dream I had driving a Triplex down 4th Avenue when all of a sudden Hillary appeared in front of me?<<
Sure that wasn't Monica ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No way. It was Hillary. I wouldn't forget that repulsive pathetic looking puce if I live to be 100.
>>No way. It was Hillary. I wouldn't forget that repulsive pathetic looking puce if I live to be 100.<<
If it was Hillary, she would be standing, Monica would be on her knees !
Fred, you are 100 !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Monica would be on her knees if Mr. Bill was there.:)
Outpost in Brooklyn heh? That is probably the TA's thinking as well or otherwise the Sea Beach stations from 8th Avenue to 86th Street wouldn't look like a replica of Berlin circa 1945. I think I would even prefer ugly renovations to none at all. When I rode my train the last day I was in New York on October 16, it was bad enough the weather outside was horsedung but seeing those stations in the seedy, rundown condition put a real pall on the day. It would be nice if the TA suddenly got religion and started some renovations on my line. They did some work on the Brighton stations and many of them now look like they did when I was a kid, spiffy and neat.
Outpost in Brooklyn heh?
Yeah, I knew I was going to get slack for that!
Seriously though, I agree, the stations along the Sea Beach are in some sorry shape.
Not to speak ill of a grand old subway line, but isn't some of the problems along the Sea Beach the result of water seeping into the concrete sides of the stations? I wonder if that isn't groundwater collecting behind there causing the concrete to powder. The stationhouses look OK, but once you're past the fare collection zone, a lot of them look pretty run down. SOME of them have had repairs (i.e. 18 Ave, New Utrecht), but others are really hurting (Kings Highway, Bay Pkwy, etc).
wayne
Wayne, we all know they look like shit, that isn't the problem. The problem is that the situation just festers and nothing is done. I often wonder just when some repair work is going to make its way out to those stations. Stillwell is a fine idea but there are a lot of others on my line, those you mentioned, for instance, that need a hell of lot of repair work.
Say, maybe they should try using something other than that BEIGE paint, like painting the pillars and arches a contrasting color, perhaps the main (diamond) color found in the stationhouse tile band, and painting another (border) color up around the top of the pillar.
The beige is awful, it's got to go.
I think the architectural style of the Sea Beach stations is beautiful, despite the ravages of time, air and water. They can paint all they want, but they still have to get at the root of the rot; otherwise it's like putting a band-aid on a melanoma.
wayne
Case in point: the brown painted ceilings above the tracks at Chambers St.
Ummm ... that brown ain't painted ... them's chitstains, bro. :)
Could be... seriously folks they painted the ceiling at Chambers St brown in 2000, and it promptly began to flake, peel, mould and mildew.
WHAT A MESS! Someone ferchrissake, call the PLUMBERS.
wayne
Waayne- Sea Beach Stationa nd Chambers are in the five year plan.
Does Chambers Street have its own 5 year plan? :)
--Mark
More like a 50-year plumbing expedition. :o>
wayne
Can we go there to check it out ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Absolutely. I am sure we'll find it in the same sorry state as we had left it last year. I think you might find Canal-Centre more interesting, with its reconfiguration to two-tracks now under way.
wayne
Lets do it. I must get some photos this time.
Simon
OK consider it pencilled in, must get to Brooklyn Bridge somehow along the way.
wayne
>>> must get to Brooklyn Bridge somehow along the way <<<
Checking out a new purchase? :-)
Tom
Nah, not that one, the only one I'd be interested in would be the Kosciuszko.
wayne
It's still as run-down as ever. Worth an "Eeewwwww!!" or two.:)
I think it may need to at this point!
There is a structural condition remedy project at Chambers Street, scheduled for 2004 and budgeted at $10 million. That is the only project for either Chambers Street or the Sea Beach Line stations in the 2000-2004 Capital Program as of May 16, 2002. Has something changed?
David
Methinks they're going to need more dinero than $10M - they'll need that just to get the table set for the real repairs. I can just see them ripping out the ceilings to get at the leaky pipes. Hope nobody above flushes! :o>
One time one of my trips had brought me to Chambers, and, noticing an active and busy leak in the south mezzanine (which was making its way into the station ceiling below), and pointing it out to my guests, a NYCT worker nearby mentioned that what was leaking was a waste line from the Muni Building above. Lovely!
wayne
Eeewwwwww!!
And masons, and craftsmen, and lifeguards.....
And Chambers could be such a great station with the high ceilings....repro brass chandeliers anyone?
Heck, I'd settle for recreations of the original halophane lamps. There is exactly ONE left, and it's missing its glass bowl. But the frame is there. It's on the abandoned northbound platform, near the closed stairway. The station used to be full of these, many were suspended by long rods over the platforms, others sat closer to the ceilings, where the ceiling itself was lower.
These lights are smaller versions of the ones you see in Home Depot and other large stores, they have the same kind of glass bowl shade except they are smaller and round instead of football shaped. The glass bowls are also fluted the same way. The fixtures had four-pieced metal frames to hold the glass bowl in place.
If they elect to recreate this lighting scheme, they will no doubt make them so they use sodium or mercury vapor lamps; the original ones were incandescent. Imagine that, Chambers Street with its original ambience! But first, they must fix the leaks.
wayne
Take a look at 86 St on the R, Smith-9 on the F,G, 2 Av on the F now THOSE are ugly stations. Yes, the Sea Beach stations are dreary and sure could use a major overhaul. Its bad enough that some of the CI bound express track is missing, but come on give the N riders & Sea Beach Fred ;-) better looking stations with new lighting, mezzanines, and other things. And they should make stations with better entrances, especially 86 St EASIER to find because people could miss it and not even know it b/c that happened to me at 18 Av a few times.
Speaking of renovation...
Why does the MTA take so long in doing renovations?
I live by 18th Ave on the Sea Beach... and they have changed the end date on the completion of the renovation to the 17th Ave entrance 7 times! It should have been completed on July 31... and 3 months later, they have a sign stating it will be done by November 29.
Who wants to put money that it won't be done until 2004?
Have you ever rehabbed a house?
I just finished rehabbing two houses. Every time I swore that all the important structural fixes would be done, I ran into more problems requiring another week of contractor effort. Like discovering that instead of one layer of vinyl tiles, I had 4 layers with a plywood underlayer sheet to tear up before I could put new tiles down. I couldn't know that in advance.
And look, I just said I finished. Not really, because there's still a door I forgot to rehang...
Sounds like you're pretty handy around the house. I take my hat off to you because I'm so-so at best. I respect people that can do that kind of work. On the other hand, you would make a good minister of propaganda for the TA because you're also good with words and double speak. Come on Ron, you know as well as I do that there are sacred cows in the transit system and the outer Brooklyn stations on the Sea Beach isn't one of them. Remember, you got that message from a guy who lives right next to the Sea Beach line and not one who is both emotionally and fanatically attached to a train he lives 3000 miles from.
"Sounds like you're pretty handy around the house. I take my hat off to you because I'm so-so at best. I respect people that can do that kind of work."
Well, what I mostly do is work together with contractors on a plan, then ride herd on them through the process. I get good results because they know I'm willing to pay a good price for their best work and I'm not a miser. Those that excel get a letter from me to realtors recommending them strongly for inclusion on preferred contractor lists - but woe be it to the craftsman who does a sloppy job on my house...
"Come on Ron, you know as well as I do that there are sacred cows in the transit system and the outer Brooklyn stations on the Sea Beach isn't one of them."
That might explain doing fewer rehabs than other lines, or doing them lower in priority. But once a rehab is underway, it's underway.
The TA did have the closure of the Franklin Av shuttle as a menu option. When they decided to rebuild it, they could have done a middling job and gotten away with it. They actually did a magnificent job.
You fantasize too much.
"Remember, you got that message from a guy who lives right next to the Sea Beach line and not one who is both emotionally and fanatically attached to a train he lives 3000 miles from."
All of which proves nothing.
The TA did have the closure of the Franklin Av shuttle as a menu option. When they decided to rebuild it, they could have done a middling job and gotten away with it. They actually did a magnificent job.
The fact that the Franklin Shuttle could be closed temporarily during its renovation undoubtedly made the work easier, not to mention less expensive, than if service had to be maintained. Temporary closures aren't an option for most other lines.
First off, change your handle. You are a Sea Beach guy, and therefore why not make it 18th Ave Sea Beach Jim, or whatever your first name is. We need more Sea Beach guys online identifying themselves with the most neglected yet greatest subway line of all. Think about that, ok?
Next stop of Sea Beach Fred's favorite train====Avenue U.
To Sea Beach Fred:
Can't change my handle... I'm moving closing to the West End line... so I can avoid taking the N unless I REALLY have to.
Sorry...
I haven't seen Grabd Central on the #7 line for a while. Of course I saw it when they started to renovate it and I though it would look better than it did. I remember that it was perhaps the worst looking station throughout the system. If the T/A made it look even worse, they should get an award for making an ugly looking station look even uglier.
#3 West End Jeff
I haven't seen Grand Central on the #7 line for a while. Of course I saw it when they started to renovate it and I though it would look better than it did. I remember that it was perhaps the worst looking station throughout the system. If the T/A made it look even worse, they should get an award for making an ugly looking station look even uglier.
#3 West End Jeff
I concur.
A wall tiling with a special type of old-style '7' tiling would have been awesome. The MTA was just slacking off for this part of the GC complex. I mean look at the 4/5/6 and the S parts of the complex. The look MUCH better!
Well the 7 is always the last to get anything good lately. Back some years ago, the 7 was the first to recieve all new cars (the WF R36's). Now they are the last line to get rid of them. Must hvae something (or nothing) to do with the demographic makeup of the line, which is vastly different than yesteryears.
Probably. But there is no viable proof of that.
I kinda like it, although I might be biased since it resembles WMATA somewhat.
Doesn't the ceiling have some history (not a totally new treatment)? I've seen something like this in pictures from the 70's or 80's. My guess is the missing tiles are to avoid the problems of the other deep tunnels, which will always have water infiltration (see other recent postings).
Not if you hang tile panels on alumimum laths, if water messes up one of the panels you can pull it, fix the leak and then replace it.
wayne
It's actually a good solution -- "u" shaped aluminum channels and cheap moisture-resistant board like behind bathroom tile. The problem is that they can grout entire sheets of tile on the concrete and walk away. With the hat channel and wallboard, they have anchors, screws, taping and finishing the board -- materials aren't to bad but we're talking LABOR!$!$!
They just slap the new tile up over the old, example: 42nd & 8th, no laths, just Laticrete & grout. Examples of the hung-panel approach are 207th Street, Broadway-Lafayette, Canal IND, Chambers Street-H&M, even the new tile at Atlantic Avenue BMT is done like that.
wayne
The fans do in fact function. At least, they did a month or so ago when I last took the 7 from Grand Central.
Although I think it's not one of the better renovations the MTA has done, I kinda like the renovated station, if only because it now feels like a reasonable place to wait for a train. I don't like subway stations that feel like dark dungeons. (I prefer to be in well-lit dungeons.)
I agree the Grand Central Station on the Flushing Line is ugly whats with the lighting, it looks too busy and distracting
Bright lighting helps those with diminished vision.
If the lighting is ugly to you you can still board a train safely. If they dim them to your taste and someone who can't see well suffers a fall because of it, would that be worth it?
Yes it's bright enough, but that zig-zag pattern is hard on the eyes. It's like looking at a garish neon sign. The could have done better with some "Home Depot" (Halophane) mercury-vapor fixtures, set up at the crown of the ceiling in a nice neat row. That flourescent lighting scheme they have is the PITS. Tacky Tacky Tacky.
wayne
I don't know what looks worse,
This:
Or This:
There were so many possibilities with the uniqueness of this station. They could have done so many things to take advantage of this station. You would think they would have spent the money for something spectacular, especially at such a high use station.
Heh, heh. I think it's safe to assume that there was bias involved in this, considering that the 7 generally serves minorities. I hope I'm wrong, of course! Though, thinking about this gives me doubt for the planned renovation of the 71 St.-Broadway station complex.
That's a no brainer ;-)
1) The fans do work
2) The lighting is needed to comply with ADA, and is justified. Sorry you don't like it.
As to the rest of your points, I can see where you're coming from.
2) The lighting is needed to comply with ADA, and is justified. Sorry you don't like it.
It's so harsh though! Just like the lighting on the R142's. There must be some way to make the lighting seem less harsh, while still complying with ADA.
Precisely. Lights can be too dim AND too bright! I can't honestly think that it would be impossible just to dim the lights a little. BTW, those fans are completely unsatisfactory for me. The just blow the hot air around unreasonably without properly ventilating it. It's so unfair when the 4/5/6 platform has A/C for god's sake!!!
The trick with lighting is to get a lot of it on the platform (and, it seems, the approach now is to light the tracks as well, which I don't mind as much as I thought I would), and not too much in your eyes. Designers like to put a little "sparkle" (visible light source) because it's trendy (all-indirect reflected up-light is out of date, and the ceilings are so beat up they wouldn't look good with lots of lighting pointing up at them and bouncing down.)
Unfortunately, GCT-7 doesn't sparkle, it screams. Maybe it has to do with changing the bulbs.
I.e., does the TA always have exposed bulbs so it can get at them to change them quickly?
the approach now is to light the tracks as well
Sometimes, but not generally. The MTA has taken to painting everything that's not near the platform black, and in most cases installs few or no lights to light up the track areas in stations. The worst example I know of is Whitehall St. Both the track areas and platforms are now significantly darker than before the renovation, and the mosaics on the walls above the tracks (which don't even seem to have been cleaned) are difficult to make out. No idea what they were thinking.
>>> in most cases installs few or no lights to light up the track areas in stations <<<
Perhaps intended to keep the light out of the T/Os' eyes.
Tom
At Whitehall, the mosaic plaques are supposed to have sodium vapor spotlights shining on them, more than half of these lights are out. The mosaic itself has kind of subdued colors, so even if it was cleaned (and it was, they did the best they could, couldn't get all the dirt and grime out), it wouldn't stand out that well.
wayne
I don't like the center hanging stuff either. Those cylindrical things are fans, they are just rarely working.
It seems people like to throw soda cans on top of them, maybe the leftover soda shorts the motors out.
i was not impressed with the times square station either !!
that ugly green / white ..
Just add the Chandaleirs that used to be there. Put them high enough so people won't be tempted to put sneakers up there.
I dunno about you but to me the Grand Central renovation on the 7 looks nice to me.I honestly like it and dont find anything wrong with it.
Nothing, we're just used to seeing stations with tiles and can't help wondering why this one never had any. Ugly.
wayne
It could be a very interesting station if they had put some tiles in it. It is very unique. I was also hoping they would have put up some tiles. I'd even settle for plain ones!
Well you can't have all the subway stations,minus the elevated ones, have tiles.There are some station's that when you look at it,it isnt possible to put tiles in them.As was the case at GC on the 7.Hey,you can't win em all.
The renovation of Fifth Ave. at 53rd on the E/V has never been a big favorite of mine -- it looks like they weren't quite sure whether or not to try a "modern" or "classic" look and ended up with the worst of both worlds (of course it's still better looking than 53rd and Lex...)
GCT on the (7) is one of the ugliest stations on the IRT. A real shame, considering how nice the Lexington Ave/60th St BMT station looks with similar circumstances.
Other unseemly renovations? How 'bout 179th St on the (F). It was always one of those 1950's-ish stations, but sollid purple sure beats orange and blue!
5th Ave/53rd Street isn't that bad. All of those 1950's/1960's/1970's looking stations are iffy, but that is one of the better ones I guess.
The platform extensions on the Lex line don't win any beauty contests.
:-) Andrew
The platform extensions on the Lex line don't win any beauty contests.
That is when they started not caring what the stations looked like. The Lex extensions were done at different times on each side, and one side was done fairly attractive in a glorified IND style tile, and the other side was done a few years later and they used that hideous aqua colored public bathroom type tile, with absolutely no caring about aesthetics. At least the INDish type tile on the side with the original extensions somewhat matches the original tilework.
The extensions on the upper 7th Ave-Broadway line's stations also has that "bathroom" type tiles, but at least on that line it is beige. It doesn't really go with the old tilework either, but at least it doesn't stick out like the aqua/green tile on the Lower Lexington line.
On a similar not, while on the subject of tiling in station extensions, I was always amused with the extension at Times Square on the 7, when they extended the station into the tunnel a bit. The extension has standard IND tiles, right down to the little IND "Times Square" tiles. It must have been an extension done around the same time the IND was being built.
53rd-5th Avenue either used really poor-quality tile, or else water leaks have caused it to deteriorate. A large percentage of tiles at that station have chips and cracks on them.
They took the Mets colors down from 179th Street? That was put up in 1985 IIRC. Is the original (1950) ecru tile still up or did they do white tile with purple band over it?
wayne
No! The blue and orange are still there. I'm saying I don't like it.
I do knda like the superhero sculptures on the mezanine level.
:-) Andrew
That makes two of us who don't like the blue and orange. It appears to be removable, made of sheet metal, so the purple tile is still down there. I like the art deco font in the tablets on the mezzanine level, i.e. the one directing to the Monastery and Retreat House (I make retreat there every January).
wayne
Look at the Atlantic Av platform of the Q! Its already showing heav dirt on the platforms and some of the tile wall is already discoloring and lets not get to the 1970's renovations[still in existence on the 4 Av line]. Agree/disagree.
and lets not get to the 1970's renovations[still in existence on the 4 Av line]. Agree/disagree.
Agree. And RECTOR! They removed all the 1970's "renovations" from the rest of Broadway, I hope they are still planning to do Rector.
It seems like when it comes to Brooklyn stations that don't have major transfer points or certain statoins with heavier ridership, they seem to have LAST priority. The 4 Av/9 St connection has way too many stairs, its too dark and is very dirty, the platforms are not very attractive.
Gee, from your post, the Franklin Avenue Shuttle must have had very heavy ridership to have been rehabbed before Atlantic & DeKalb :)
--Mark
DeKalb Avenue was one of the first stations rehabilitated under the MTA Capital Program in the early 1980s. It wasn't a complete rehabilitation, though, and it truly merits the full job it's getting now.
David
I have taken the F train to 4th Avenue and transferred to the 9th Street station down below to get on the Sea Beach----anything to avoid using the filthy rat infested Montague Tunnel and all those rotten local stops that now besets my train. On the other hand a couple of times after a good meal I will do the opposite and climp those steep and long stairs in order to burn off some calories. You are right, though. The stairs are dark and dirty, one more piece of evidence that confirms the TA doesn't seem to give a hoot in hell about Brooklyn's stations above ground.
I will say though some of the stops after 4th Avenue are rather impressive looking. Prospect Park-15th Street Station seems very neat and clean. Of course, the area around it is still very nice and I guess the people using the station take pride in what they have. What the TA did to add to it of recent vintage completely escapes me.
They haven't done anything to 15th Streer lately except to put up some tile at the north end of the platform which is yellow and doesn't match the glorious Spanish Orange of the trackside wall. Before that, it was probably the installation of flourescent light in the station. It is comparatively well-kept as far as stations go, with little sign of decay except for a few missing tiles here and there.
wayne
Don't try to transfer to the N there anymore. Until 9/8, the N ran express on weekdays but local nights and weekends. Now it runs local around the clock. Barring a blockage on the express track or a GO, the N never stops at 9th Street.
I don't see anything special about 15th Street. It's a typical IND station.
Well I guess when I come to New York I can't do that transfer anymore unless I do from whatever train now stops at 9th and then move upstairs to the F at 4th Avenue. As for 15th Street, it just looked clean and well kept to me. I remembered that station when I visited my uncle and aunt who lived right near the station. For the first time since 1949 I got off at the station and explored the area. I was impressed with the station for reasons already mentioned and I was still impressed with the neighborhood surrounding it. I heard it has become a haven for yuppies.
I was impressed with the station for reasons already mentioned and I was still impressed with the neighborhood surrounding it. I heard it has become a haven for yuppies.
That whole area is really nice and well kept. Park Slope has really had a nice rebirth. I haven't been there too often, but when I was there a few weeks ago, I was pretty impressed in how nice it was. Walking down 7th Avenue in Park Slope felt a bit like East Side of Manhattan around 1st and 2nd ave, by the 80's and 90's Streets. It's like a little piece of Manhattan, right in Brooklyn. Has Park Slope remained that nice all along, or did it also find hard times years back like many other areas and is now renewed?
Chris:
You act like having "a little piece of Manhattan" in Brooklyn is a good thing. Feh.
Park Slope is getting to be more & more like Brooklyn Heights, which had been jokingly referred to as "Not Brooklyn, just an extension of Manhattan". For us Brooklynites, this isn't meant as a compliment.
Well it was meant as a compliment, sorry if it wasn't taken that way. I just thought Park Slope looked like really a nice neighborhood. There are many parts of Brooklyn that are nice, with or without a "Manhattan" feel. The truth is though, Park Slope (and Brooklyn Heights) does look like Manhattan a bit - for better or for worse. There could be worse comparisons. Park Slope could look like Beford-Stuyvesant.
The R stops at 9th Street all times except nights. The M stops there weekdays. The W stops there nights and weekends. All have cross-platform transfers with the N at 36th Street.
The station at 4th is in pretty sorry shape. Actually the whole structure at 4th and Smith-9St looks like it is going to fall into the canal.
Not to mention the tarp that is at Smith-9. Come on, its a slap in the face to see a station that has aluminum sheets or metal as ceilings and its ERODING! The station is dark, the express tracks is growing weeds that could be mowed with a lawn mower, so much peeling paint, uneven platform, the G train's terminal station, the oddest terminal in the whole system and prevents a partial Culver express from 4 Av. Wait, they should just make G's go to Church Av, restore it to at least 6 cars[R46's], Kings Hwy F's and G's make all stops in Brooklyn while Av X F's run express to/from 4 Av then switch.
Like the CI bound Sea beach express track, both express tracks to/from the 4 Av switches are in horrid shape, weeds growing and the tracks is rusted beyond belief[outside] and is unhealthy from the Bergen interlockings.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Hey 41, the thing that confuses me is how those two outdoor stations can look so crappy while the indoor stations after 4th Avenue look very smart and clean. Is their something about open air stations that bring out the neglect on the part of the TA? Kind of looks that way.
Well, for one thing, those two elevated stations have a lot of exposed steelwork and concrete work, which won't win points for beauty. And the choice of exposed buff Norman brick at 4th Avenue instead of tile makes it even uglier. As for the steelwork, it goes part and parcel with the way the line was built, to fly over the Gowanus Canal, rather than being a conventional elevated (meant Box Girder) structure, they built this godawful viaduct...
wayne
7th Avenue smart & clean, eh? Last time I was there there were rust and water stains all over the walls, they'd never fixed the leaks. And this was after they did some work on the wall tile.
wayne
Never said 7th Avenue; I said 15th Street and Prospect Park, the second underground stop on the F after 4th Avenue. And regardless of what you or anyone else says I was impressed with the neatness of the station. I saw no garbage or filth anywhere. 7th Avenue on the Brighton always bugged me because the next stop was Prospect Park Station and Ebbets Field, but it seemed like it took eons before the train came out into God's sunshine and we finally got there. Where the hell did you come up with 7th Avenue?
Sorry, Fred; I thought your reference was to the stations beyond 4th Avenue in general.
wayne
Come on, its a slap in the face to see a station that has aluminum sheets or metal as ceilings and its ERODING!
How about the steel wall columns at Wilson Ave on the L? Near the bottom they have rusted through, good sized holes in the columns now.
Is the upper or lower level?
wayne
Does anyone know when the MTA will get to redo some of the Bronx subway sttations?
I've seen some plywood walls at the Castle Hill Av. Station on the #6 ( for a REALLY long time), but these walls have been PAINTED beige i guess to fit in with the station decor. This station is in shambles and something should really be done about it. BTW there is NOTHING behing the plywood walls.
True, the platform surface has been retiled and there is new lighting. But the lighting is harsh and too bright. The "Grand Central - 42 St" signs hanging from the station walls look cheap and some of them are not hanging straight. The metal circular works of "art" that hang from the ceilings look like fans but are not, they are merely decorative.
The lighting is fine to me: the strangest of all configuration of the placement of the lights that form rows of diamonds or a similar shape, if I'm not mistaken. I especially like the "lighted" signs within the transfer point, stairway. I haven't seen them anywhere else.
Yes, the metal signs noting "42nd St - Grand Central" look cheap and plain, but an entire remodeling could take too much money.
They did a much better renovation job at the Grand Central shuttle stop. I hope that the Lex/53 station on the E/V doesn't befall a similar fate as Grand Central.
Speaking on the topic, has anything happened to Lex Av. - 53 St.? The last time I checked it could use a good painting on the ceiling and the walls. The previous construction and closures, and the work the MTA did there left quite an array of miscellaneous marks on the walls.
Not only that, i noticed that the black-brown walls were being "primered" or painted in white, segments at a time.
What do the walls of this station now present?
Or is it the same bland type and MTA hasn't bothered to paint over the horrible mess.
I like the tile designs in the mezzanine above the Queens Blvd. line.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I nominate the following
1--81st street/CPW
2--28th st/broadway BMT
3--Fulton/Nassau
4--Rector/IRT
5--Utica/livonia
6--Christopher/IRT
7--Canal/7th ave
8--Canal/BMT
9--Canal/Park IRT
10--Lorimer/metropolitan
11--14/8-Both BMT/IND
12--36th/4th BMT
13--33rd IRT
14--Grand Central-LEX
15--59/lex
16--96/lex
17--Main/Flushing
also
18--181-IRT
19--110-Lenox
20--116-Lenox
21--125-Lenox
22--135-Lenox
23--66-Broadway
24--57/7th ave
25--42/6
26--Houston IRT
27/8--Penn station(27-IRT/28-IND)
yet more to add...
29--Franklin st
30--canal IRT-West side
31--Canal IND
32--Times Square-Broadway IRT
33--5/59
34--42/8
35--Astor Place
36--Union Square
My all time favorited are (in addition to some of those listed):
Utica Avenue on the "A" and "C"
Fulton Street on the "J" "M" "Z"
The entire Franklin Avenue Shuttle "S"
Yeah they did a great job on all of the Franklin shuttle stations. I do miss all the original old features at the Franklin/Fulton station though. I'm glad they redid the whole shuttle as it was very necessary, but we did loose something in the process...
[The entire Franklin Avenue Shuttle "S"]
Ah, a man of esquisite taste...:)
Welcome back Keith...
Glad to be back.
I 2nd the Rector Street nomination, they did a supurb job getting this station back to normal, in just over a year. However, I have to disagree with the nomination of GCT/IRT. -Nick
I like these renovations:
33rd/Lex
66th/7th-Bway
Franklin/7th-Bway
36th/4th
Houston
Honorable Mentions:
18th/7th-Bway
81st/CPW
Broad Street/Nassau
Possibly removed from original nomination list:
Grand Central/Flushing Line
Favorite Stations in general (some renovated, some not):
Union Square/Lex - I love that station
Chambers Street/Nassau - I must be sick
33rd Street/Lex - that station falls into both categories
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned 72/Broadway.
Anyway, here are my votes:
81/CPW
28/Broadway
Times Square (so far)
66/Broadway
Cortlandt/Church
33/Park
Houston/Varick
Franklin/Varick
18/7
Church/Nostrand
Grand Army Plaza
Atlantic-Pacific (still ugly, but transfers have already been improved)
Park Place (Franklin shuttle)
Metropolitan/Lorimer
181/St. Nicholas
You skipped Franklin Street on the 1/2/3. Its a gem!
For all the dislike I have for Windows, and Internet Explorer especially, Subtalk runs much better on that combination than on Macintoshes. Right now, I'm using a brand new Macintosh in a computer lab to read the reverse threaded index and, irrespective of what browser I use, it is painfully slow and ties up the whole computer - Mac OS 9.2 stops multitasking smoothly and the whole thing grinds to a halt. Frankly, back in the days when I was doing this, I could pour molasses in January during a boy scout camp in the middle of nowhere in temperatures of about -40 degrees faster than I can use Subtalk on any Macintosh I've tried it on.
What am I doing wrong? Is there any way to get the speed up on it, and do it so that it doesn't tie up the whole damn computer?
-Robert King
Really? I use Windows and Subtalk is just a breeze for me. Before blaming Microsoft blatantly for your speed woes, try checking your memory, run defrag on your com or delete unnecessary programs on it.
You have it backwards, I think. It's not Windows he is having a problem with, it's Macintosh.
Oops, you're right.
Sorry Robert. I can't help ya there with Macs.
I never have a problem looking at subtalk on a mac. I'm doing it right now, and have never had a problem with it in the last 3 years.
a)if it's brand new, it shouldn't be running os 9.2 . it should have X or X.2 ('jagular') in it, both of which multitask just fine.
b)perhaps the problem is the computer lab's connection, or some other factor?
c)what version of browser is on there? if it's something like netscape 4.7, that's the problem right there.
Sounds like a problem at your location. I've been using a Mac for 4+ years here and don't have a problem - and I'm running OS 8.1
Robert, I've got six Macs here... four of them connected to the internet... my primary machine is a G3 with OS 9.2, plus I've got an iBook with 9.1, an iMac with 9.0, and a PowerBook with 10.1. All have Netscape (various versions) as the browser and none have any problems with performance.
Sounds like your Mac has 10.1 or 10.2 on it and the browser is being launched from Classic (9.2) mode. That DOES run slow, and chokes the multitasking somewhat. There's probably a browser loaded in native mode... find that one and use it. Should run a lot better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Im very glad that they finally fixed 72nd St. I love the new staircases and now my commute is much less of a hassle now that i can transfer to any train. I am although unsatisfied that they closed the old entrance at 71st St. but i would love it if they renovated that entrance
The new one looks absolutely great! I entered there instead of 66st today on my way home from school. Wow!!
Have the NB stop markers been moved yet? The south end of the NB platform is clearly slated for abandonment, if it hasn't been abandoned already.
Yes, I realized this as I was running down the northmost staircase (the largest) on the N/B platform catching a uptown 1 train and it stopped right at the staircase.
Have the NB stop markers been moved yet? The south end of the NB platform is clearly slated for abandonment, if it hasn't been abandoned already.
You are making me even more upset that I didn't go over to check 72nd out when I was there last Sunday. I was all the way at 66th, so I could have easily swung over. I had no know that they were planning that there! (Although I did know about the new exit). How much of the platform will they be abandoning?
About a carlength. I noticed a few weeks ago that the south end of the platform hadn't been retiled and that the wall across from it was bare. That's when I figured out what was going on.
The original entrance to 72nd St. is being renovated. It is supposed to reopen next March.
Bob Sklar
is it me or do they really have to do something about the "F" line. It drives me crazy how slow it is.that the frequency is very low and that it doesnt make alot of connections ever since the stillwell ave. renovation
Aren't you exaggerating the connection problem slightly? I admit many of the connections are not ideal, but the F does in fact connect to every single line except the shuttles.
All in Manhattan except for the G, in fact: connection to every line at Delancey, W 4th, 14th, 34th, 42nd, or Lexington (yes, Lex to the 4/5/6 is a stretch).
yeah but all in manhattan
But then also the A, C, M, and R in Brooklyn, and the 7, E, R, and V in Queens.
Few trains do better in terms of connecting to lots of lines.
I actually can't think of a single subway line, other than the Staten Island Railway (and technically, that's not a subway), that doesn't have beaucou (spelling please?) transfers to other lines.
The 1/9 doesn't transfer to the 4, 5, 6, G, J, or M. The 6 doesn't transfer to the 1/9, 2, 3, A, B, C, D, or G. I guess that's about as bad as it gets for major lines.
Before 7/22/01, the 1/9 didn't have a transfer to the Q either. Any 6th Avenue express that goes to Queens (via 63rd, presumably) will miss both potential transfer points to the 1/9, 14th and 59th. That's why I hope the F remains the line covering 63rd (as opposed to one of the Manhattan Bridge lines).
"Before 7/22/01, the 1/9 didn't have a transfer to the Q either. Any 6th Avenue express that goes to Queens (via 63rd, presumably) will miss both potential transfer points to the 1/9, 14th and 59th. That's why I hope the F remains the line covering 63rd (as opposed to one of the Manhattan Bridge lines)."
That makes good sense. An even better reason: you can't send a 6th Ave local to CPW without causing switching delays between 34th and 42nd, and similarly you can't send a bridge train to E 53rd without delays. And since there is enough demand to send two services to CPW, one to 63rd, and one to 53rd, the only plan that makes sense is to send the locals to 53rd and 63rd and the expresses to CPW.
I'm assuming that there will be two services to CPW, one to 53rd, and one to 63rd. The two to CPW practically have to be expresses and the one to 53rd practically has to be a local. The one to 63rd can be either.
I don't know if an option of this sort is still in the cards, but one plausible service arrangement has three bridge-6th Avenue services, one running via 63rd, and only one local service (whether the F or the V). I don't think this is very likely, but it's a possibility.
"one plausible service arrangement has three bridge-6th Avenue services, one running via 63rd, and only one local service (whether the F or the V). I don't think this is very likely, but it's a possibility."
I guess it is possible. The 6th Ave local stops would be pretty deprived of service as a result. The Broadway express would also then be reduced.
Come to think of it, it does make some terrifying sense as a budget reduction maneuver. West End and one Brighton service to CPW, the other Brighton service to Queens Blvd via 63rd, the Culver service to Queens via 53rd, the Sea Beach and Bay Ridge via the tunnel. Ugh.
Yes, true.
It's been 30 years, but I think it's "beaucoup." (All final consonants are silent en Francais.)
Thank you. I'll remember that for future.
But with the exception of transfers to other IND lines, every one of the F's transfers is a big pain. Well, okay, the L isn't too bad, and the J/M/Z's only problem is the narrow staircases. But the others all have long climbs or long walks.
"But with the exception of transfers to other IND lines, every one of the F's transfers is a big pain."
Agreed, but most lines don't actually transfer to EVERY other non-shuttle line. I was just objecting to singling out the F for its poor transfers. The 1 and 6 are a lot worse.
"yeah but all in manhattan"
No, what about transferring to the BMT Broadway line at 4th Av/9th Street? And transfers to the G train?
And there are transfers in Queens to the E,V,and R trains.
Check out the route map and you'll see.
First off I know many subway lines that are totally better than the f at connecting trains and more frequency.
When I take the f it is the most diffucult part of my day the train never comes it takes too long and honestly doesnt move fast
Now think about it would it be a much better commute if we brought the f express back or something Three trains at jay st come bye then the announcer tells me there is an f at e bway more frequency than any other train The thing about bklyn is that their are alway twso ore three different lines serving a porton E.G A and C, W,N Express
M,R Local 2,3 Local, 4,5 Express, Q Or Q exp, the only lines that i can think of in bklyn that are always being served by only one line are the G somewhat and the L trains
When the Bergen interlocking repair is completed, the F can run express again in Brooklyn.
when did the bergen interlocking repair start
If you're interested I would contact NYCT Transit and ask. Write to them at the Jay Street address: 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn NY 11201
when did the bergen interlocking repair start and when will it finish
I don't think repairs have even started yet so the answer that question is still up in the air.Who knows when they'll start fixing that interlocking.
That would be a nice idea, and have the V and G terminate at Church. Extra trains would be needed also though, so maybe as more R42's are displaced by the R143's, they can shift some more cars around.
Works for me.
Wait...what time of day and what direction are we talking about here? The F is on a 4-minute headway in the peak direction (southbound, from Queens) during the AM rush. Since F trains have to share track space with E trains along the Queens Boulevard Line, a 4-minute headway is about the best that can be hoped for. Speed's a different issue, but as far as frequency goes there's little if anything in the NYC subway system that beats the F.
David
Granted...but service during the evening is inadequate if one uses the adage that people should not be forced to stand at any point on the route other than during the rush hours.
There are 10 minute headways at 9 PM which become 12 minutes at 10 PM. At 10 PM every F train entering and leaving Jay Street is crowded and people are forced to stand. Therefore by definition service is inadequate.
Granted...but service during the evening is inadequate if one uses the adage that people should not be forced to stand at any point on the route other than during the rush hours.
If only there were a guarantee of a seat off-peak.
On the 1/9, the only times I consider it more likely than not that I'll get a seat are weekday middays and very late nights. All day Sunday, the 1/9 has standees north of Times Square.
I will say that I find waiting for the F generally unpleasant, simply because most IND stations are a bit dingy, and outside Queens, F stations don't get much traffic off-peak.
I think the level of service you are complaining about is the normal level of service on many lines. You may want better service, but the F is not being singled out.
Say you want to go to midtown. Service on the F line in Brooklyn is usually better than service on the Sea Beach, the West End (Ms don't go to midtown), the 4th Ave local stations south of 59th, the Fulton St local stations, the A branches past Rockaway Blvd, the G line stations, the M to Metropolitan, the New Lots #3 line, the Dyre Ave line, the 1/9 skip stop stations, the Grand Concourse local stations.
It is comparable to (and sometimes better than) service on the J/Z (which requires a change of trains for midtown), the Brighton local stations, the Central Park West stations, the Canarsie line, and maybe others.
Service frequency on the F is one of the best in the system. As to Stillwell - we all want that station renovated; so now we just have to wait until it's done.
So which connections is the Stillwell project keeping you from using - other than Stillwell itself?
------
As a curious aside: You typed a lower-case f for this thread's title. What if we were to redo the subway lettering system this way: Big trains (B Division) get upper case letters, while little IRT trains (A Division) get lower case letters? :0)
I just wish my wall would be worked on already. Almost all the plaster has flaked off, and I'm getting a look at some cracked, brown drywall.
If what you say is true you must consider the Sea Beach stations in Brooklyn to be your blood brothers. Take a look at them sometime. They look like crap warmed over and it get worse by the year while the TA sits with their fingers up their asses and worries only about their prized Manhattan stations.
Yes, the Sea Beach stations are worn - but it wouldn't be NY if it wasn't...I expect to see the graffiti and some garbage - again, wouldn't by NY with out it...
Yes, the Sea Beach stations are worn - but it wouldn't be NY if it wasn't...I expect to see the graffiti and some garbage - again, wouldn't be NY with out it...
The Sea Beach stations still look better than that Ellis Island-like ruin, Chambers St.
Right Steve. And the TA could use that against me when I say they care only about their prized Manhattan stations. Chambers Street does look like a wreck and I wonder why the powers that be don't do something about it. Maybe if they keep the station looking like that they can defend themselves against people like me who believe they have a bias in favor of Manhattan.
You're right, Fred. Maybe they should even cancel the West 8th Street and Stillwell reconstructions (since you don't feel that's worth anything). I'll write a letter and tell them you said so.
:0)
Remember this. Stillwell is just for the Sea Beach. My opinion is if only my train ran there they might not have done anything to the station. The fact is the F, W, Q, and usually another train goes there as well. As for 8th Street, I can't recall ever seeing a Sea Beach train at that station except for a fan trip back in 1971, a picture of which I made a copy of. Nice try, though.
As a curious aside: You typed a lower-case f for this thread's title. What if we were to redo the subway lettering system this way: Big trains (B Division) get upper case letters, while little IRT trains (A Division) get lower case letters? :0)
I'd love to see the tourist deal with that.
"Take a big F to 14th Street, or a little f to Union Square."
I guess that's better than one of our favorite unused routes:
"Take a big P at 42nd Street, or a little p at Grand Central".....
Whoa!!! Time Out!! During Rush Hour, the F Train's are right behind each other.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress2005
How short is a New York minute then? The F train isn't dubbed the Forever for nothing.
Most infrequent of all the NYC subway lines:
N, R, F, J, M
"Most infrequent of all the NYC subway lines:
N, R, F, J, M"
Huh?
The B, C, G, and V are never as frequent as the F.
The D and L are roughly comparable to the F in both rush and non-rush hours (roughly 12-15 tph and 8 tph respectively).
I find the B and D's current versions, as well as the C and V to be more reliable than the F. The V isn't as much so but still. The G is pretty bad, I should have added that to my list.
I vote for the N and R as the longest wait. When Broadway just had the N and R on it for a while, the waits always seemed so long, and that was with two lines running on it! Waiting for a train on a regular basis at a station like Bay Ridge Ave must be some long wait!
I think the problem with the F train is, and I ride it almost everyday, except nowadays the wait has become too long, is the spacing of the trains. Many times, you will see three or four trains right after the other. However, if there are 12 tph, and they bunch up twice an hour, you basically have 8 trains in 10 minutes and 4 over the next 50. If anything, it's the spacing of the F trains that is a problem rather than the actualy number of tph
The Straphangers' Campaign does a reasonably good audit of this metric. Go to www.straphangers.org and look at their relative line ratings and the different variables they measure.
And in fact the F has worse bunching than average. In AM rush, about 68% of trains arrive at regularly scheduled intervals, as oppsed to a system avergae of about 78%.
I know that. Frequency, which was the word used in the original post, was referring to when the trains actually show up, not how often they are scheduled to come. I then used the same term to refer to which trains are farthest spaced apart, regardless of written schedules.
It's ACENQQRWS12397 because of color grouping.
I agree that the F is slow, I ride it every day so I can tell you that the Culver express and Hillside express needs to be resurrected as soon as possible. Sometiems it takes 1/2 an hour to get to Jay St, that's long, IMO.
>"frequency is very low and that it doesnt make alot of connections ever since the stillwell ave. renovation"<
What are you talking about???? How much do you really know about this line. The F is one of the most frequent lines in the whole system, only the 1,4,6,7 and E is more frequent. It runs like every 3 or 4 during the rush, is reliable 85% of the time[yes, service is questionable at times].
It still has connections at Stillwell, just take the shuttle bus to CI & catch the W is that so hard?!
Ok, here's the connections since you CLAIM it has very few:
Stillwell Av[shuttle bus]:W
West 8[station closed]: Q
4 Av: M,R,W(weekends)
Bergen St-Smith 9 St: G
Jay St: A,C
Delancey St: J,M,Z
Broadway Lafayette: 6(downtown)
West 4: A,C,E,S(Grand)
34 St: B,D,N,Q,R,W
42 St: 7
Roosevelt Av: E,G,R,V,7
Ok, where are the lack of connections
I agree that the F is slow, I ride it every day so I can tell you that the Culver express and Hillside express needs to be resurrected as soon as possible. Sometiems it takes 1/2 an hour to get to Jay St, that's long, IMO.
>"frequency is very low and that it doesnt make alot of connections ever since the stillwell ave. renovation"<
What are you talking about???? How much do you really know about this line. The F is one of the most frequent lines in the whole system, only the 1,4,6,7 and E is more frequent. It runs like every 3 or 4 during the rush, is reliable 85% of the time[yes, service is questionable at times].
It still has connections at Stillwell, just take the shuttle bus to CI & catch the W is that so hard?!
Ok, here's the connections since you CLAIM it has very few:
Stillwell Av[shuttle bus]:W
West 8[station closed]: Q
4 Av: M,R,W(weekends)
Bergen St-Smith 9 St: G
Jay St: A,C
Delancey St: J,M,Z
Broadway Lafayette: 6(downtown)
West 4: A,C,E,S(Grand)
34 St: B,D,N,Q,R,W
42 St: 7
Roosevelt Av: E,G,R,V,7
Ok, where are the lack of connections
I am yet to have a good experience catching the f-train. I don't care how many connections I can make from it if it never comes!
Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-mta1030.story
Subtalkers may want to look at this. There is a legitimate opportunity to increase the proportion of bridge toll subsidy the subways get, and still make sure the commuter railroads get enough. Instead of $24 million (fixed amount) going to subways, how about $75 million or $100 million going to subways, with the rest split 50-50 with the commuter rail system? Or offer the subways a fixed percentage...
Go to the Straphangers Campaign website, www.straphangers.org, and pitch in a little.
I'm confused. I thought the current formula was one-third to each of Transit, Metro-North, and LIRR. Am I incorrect?
From the 2001 MTA Annual Report, page 23 of the financial section:
"INTERAGENCY SUBSIDY - TRIBOROUGH BRIDGE AND TUNNEL AUTHORITY
"NYS Law requires TBTA to transfer its annual operating surplus, as defined, to NYCTA and MTA. The initial $24 (million) of the operating surplus is provided to NYCTA and the balance, as adjusted to reflect debt service requirements of TBTA bonds issued for their respective benefit, was divided between NYCTA and MTA in their respective amounts of $137.9 and $173.3 (million) recognized in 2001. In 2000, the amounts related to NYCTA and MTA were $167.7 and $189.7 (million), respectively.
"Certain TBTA investment income is transferred to MTA and is Board-designated for use in acquiring or constructing capital assets for the Commuter Railroads and NYCTA. MTA recognized $23.8 and $33.2 (million) in 2001 and 2000, respectively, related to the TBTA investment income transfer."
Apparently, it works out to roughly half to NYCT(A) and half to the rest of MTA. That was not the intent of the transfer when it started, but that seems to be what it is nowadays. Here's what "1968-1973: The Ten-Year Program at the Halfway Mark" has to say (page 16):
"One of the most innovative actions was the use of surplus revenues from the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority to help meet the deficits of MTA's rail operations. Initially, surplus funds went only to the New York City Transit Authority; in 1972, tolls were increased to raise additional funds which were shared 50-50 by the subway system and the commuter railroads." And on page 56: "The anticipated annual transfer rate of $24 million was doubled by increased tolls, which went into effect in January, 1972. When the new schedule of tolls was adopted, the increase was expected to raise approximately $50 million a year, to be divided equally between mass transit and commuter railroads. By the end of 1972, that goal had been met."
David
Very interesting. Thanks for the correction.
I always thought that Bloomberg's rush to impose tolls on the East River by leasing or selling the bridges to the MTA was an attempt to further subsidize the the commuter rail network at the expense of the City. Had he simply proposed having the City operate these bridges with tolls, then there would have been a good chance that the City might be able to capture all the proceeds.
Yesterday the MTA board met & formally approved the reorganization.
In the audience were members of the Straphangers Compaign handing out candy ... FARE Savers, (We Already Paid) Good & Plunty.
We will all meet on Wednesday, October 30th at 4 PM at the intersection of 42nd Street and Lexington Avenue (location to be adjusted by circumstance) to SHOW OUR COLORS. A 'Sea of Blue' will march towards the offices of MTA at 44th and Madison Avenue to demonstrate our unison and need to maintain medical benefits. Carry yourselves proudly, treat all with respect and demonstrate to the public that we have an important part of keeping our city alive each and every working day. If your medical benefits mean something and it's your RDO/off the shift, YOU MUST be there. MTA needs us and we need MTA...just remember the slackers whose weight we must carry. Rain or shine, snow or sleet, NO EXCUSES (except for serious personal or medical problems.)
'In the hole, in the hole, IN THE HOLE SPEAK ENGLISH!!!' CI Peter
Hey Juice, bring pics when you come back!
TNX CPCTC...I need someone to tell me how to post them. On the job, some are afraid of me and some come after me for special access tools.
I carry every key and tool for old/new trainsets, a HF/VHF/UHF radio and a tri-band phone AND a Minox-sized digital camera AND a palm-sized digital video camera. When things go wrong, having the tools to MAKE TRAINS GO and documenting what went wrong means safety and continuance in service. CI Peter
Send them to my email addy, I will put them up for you.
Well there is SNOW in PA right now!Hehe. I don't know if I'm going I am just getting over a Bad case of Food Pisoning. It cased me to miss work Monday. I will NEVER EVER go the Chinese Food place on Dyre Ave bet Light St and E 233 St. I was sick for over 24HRS.
If I feel well I will be there!
HAHA! The one time I went there I had my usual chicken with garlic sauce, the chicken tasted like they just slaughtered it, chopped it up, and put it on my plate. It didn't taste like they cooked it at all! Whoa that was horrible.
Well yeah ... like they say, "it tastes just like chicken." :(
It just went from summer to winter!
Well it's always important to make sure your food is steaming hot.
Usually chinese food places do a good job with that. Fast food is a different story. Usually Wendy's is always hot, except when I went to the one in the Palisades mall in Ghostown,mm, Clarkstown.
Thanks for the Advise. I'm slowly getting over it. Yes Its winter indeed There is already an inch of snow on my front deck.
I hope you feel better. I also hope you'll pay more attention to the posts regarding the lack of human food at most IRT terminals. Pelham is the only terminal where I eat. Anyplace else, you'll see me eating my own sandwich.
'My own sandwich.' Safest food is from ones own body parts, properly cleaned and prepared. I eat from sealed containers save Ritz crackers with Skippy Creamy. Stay away from the cold water dispensers...bottles are changed out like brake shoes but never is the dispenser sanatised. Nothing like a good cleanout with Clorox bleach. Don't go for local 'chicken'....especially from Chinese take out....R142 homing pigeons are plump. CI Peter
"Safest food is from ones own body parts, properly cleaned and prepared."
Wowsers ... I knew lunch cost a frigging arm and a leg in NYC, but that's da most ridiculous thing I ever hoid ... moo. :)
X-Files Cuisinart xpress. Car Desk went unexplainably Chiney Food...TWU slopgate meeting at lunch disturbed my 'meditation period' but no supervisors present in afternoon. Ommmmm. CI Peter
Heh. Well, sure hope you got your cookies. :)
Hey...I observe ceiling phenomena sans modern optical enhancement. Stick with assigned car and no check out/in (only roaches.)
Great post, John. Now let me see if I got this straight:
Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad.Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad.Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad.Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad. Hot Chinese food-good. Cold Wendys-bad.
Is that correct, John?
No.
Cold Chinese food-bad, Hot Wendy's-Good, Wendy's Chinese food-bad, Hot Mystical Chinese-good, Wendy's in Clarkstown-bad, Wendy's Chicken Lo Mein Nuggets-good, Salad-very very bad.
Diet Pepsi hot - very bad; Vanilla Coke cold - very good; Classic Coke Hot - Very bad; Classic Coke Cold- very good; White Castle steaming hot = good; White Castle leftovers in garbage dumpster out back-very, very bad.
White Castle re-heated in microwave so bad I couldn't go riding on Sunday.
Put your own microwave in your rollaway. You should see what I BUILT....chuck out the towels and Tough Guy....room for a cube refrigerator and a 39.95 microwave from WalMart. Tools makes the man...just keep em away from the vendors. CI Peter
Yeah, we heard all about your Microwave ... takes out channels 45-60 even up here. :)
Keying up the cathode produces such a nice shower of sparks and to boot the rurals up your end seeing UHF TV channels modulated to full black by CW keying.
Heh. Plus a pretty white humbar climbing the screen. You'd get twice as much oomph with a bridge rectifier. :)
Did you put the paper towel over the white castle burger
when re-heating??? it's in the instructions....
I'm not one to talk... had an eggroll last night
from Chiny food here in Ossining and at the first
bite the SOB smelled like gasoline... you can imagine
I emptied the chewed up contents back into said bag
and let 'er fly... spoiled my whole pork fried rice craving.
I prefer McDonalds, even though the burgers and fries are murder on the arteries.
Sounds like Pelham Bay Dave got a pigeon in with his Chinese Junk.
wayne
Then there's always Nathan's cheese fries, right? Yum, yum.:)
At least McDuck's no longer uses beef tallow for their fries.
Sounds like Pelham Bay Dave got a pigeon in with his Chinese Junk.
Ask Selkirk to tell you a story about an experience he had 20 years ago...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Dude, have you had the opportunity to eat at the Bedford Park Diner? It's just across the street from the Bedford Park station on the 4 line. Great place. Unfortunately I don't have time to go there when I'm working out of WDL terminal.
Is that the diner on the corner of Bedford Park & Jerome? It used to be called the Rainbow Diner and it was horrible. I wouldn't let them boil water for tea. Trouble was when I was working midnights at CCYD and 205th, it was the only place open. I hope you stomach their food better than I did.
Some RTO crews have 'guts of iron.' Quit Vassileros Coffees twenty years ago...just don't need the enemics. CI Peter
It's really good stuff now. Their Bison Burgers are delicious.
Used to eat in that diner 20 years ago when I was a drunk teenager.
If you were there in the summer of '85, I probably saw you passed out in one of the booths while I was picking up my coffee on the way to work. :-)
I said I ate there not slept there!!!
I stand corrected. A thousand pardons. It always used to give me a laugh that at 3AM on a Saturday you could watch everyone comming out of Madden's Bar on Bedford Park Blvd. making a bee-line for the Rainbow Diner. When you saw the diner crowded you knew that the bar had just closed.
I serviced diner sound systems in places where the public does not go.
Anything i consume is prepared above sea level.
As a matter of fact, I have eaten there. Basic breakfast is good but breakfast is no trick. It's pretty standard everywhere. I will say this, though. Their Delux Burger Platters are very good. Dinners are a little pricey for a place with such limited ambience.
What does HOT have to do with well cooked??
I'm glad you don't write PSA's.
Food mighta been HOT if he hadn't spent three hours
eyeballing the MYSTICAL weemeng up in that joint...
Had I known you were up in this deck of the redbird,
I'd have given you the know-how on the Palisades and
I, for one, find it is a very fah fah enticing venue.
Well there weren't any mystical ladies to eyeball in Ghostown mall, come to think of it, I was one of the only ones in the food court.
The food wasn't moving at Wendy's due to the empty food court.
Of all the malls I've been to, Palisades was the emptiest.
And BTW it's sinking, see the cracks in the floor.
Now we can't say that about even our most decrepid subway station at Chambers st BMT.
Then again, I don't think any parts of the subway were built on a former DUMP like the Emptysades mall.
Like I've said before, there must be 2 Palisades Malls. The one I visited is nothing like the one John describes. In fact it's the total opposite.
Peace,
ANDEE
Must've been there on a Sunday, when the malls gets all the Bergenites fleeing from Blue Law land.
BTW, WHUD 100.7 is there right now, at Mickey Mantle's, doesn't sound busy there.
Show me a pic of the mall busy with shoppers, and I'll believe you!
I was there on a Friday. I have nothing to prove to you. I have better thing to do than going around taking pictures of shopping malls.
Peace,
ANDEE
Amen ANDEE~!!
Friday nights rock at the PM... oh and let's not forget the
holiday weekends.. if the mall is 'empty' as Jonathan claims,
then perhaps Einstein can explain why it always takes
20+ minutes to find a spot.
Mystical ladies abound on the weekends.. I pity he bases
his knowledge on a measly weekday visit when everyone was
working or at school.. Mmm.. working.
then perhaps Einstein can explain why it always takes
20+ minutes to find a spot.
I'm not Einstein, but I'll fill in for him :)
Everyone looks for a spot on the NYS Thruway side. Drive around to the other side of the mail (the route 59 side) and you'll always find a spot.
--Mark
Must do.
Well I was at Bergen mall today, 10:25am, and there were lots more people around then at Palisades.
Also may I note when I was at Palisades, many stores had their gates down as late as 12 noon. Never saw that in a mall before.
True 'die to the heart' TA employees eat McBagget with the big salaries we get. I checked out every TA food dive RTO crews eat from...Pepinos Pizza on 241st was deemed 'safe.' Dave: hope you survive 'Chiney foood' from Dyre Avenue and feel better. You have a legit excuse...many of us at 239th have been ill. CI Peter
Thank you! I will see how I feel tomorrow. I still have not had anything to eat that stayed in me since Saturday Night.
Whatever was in that Chicken W Broccoli was really bad. I know the Chicken was the cause.
Well I should have lost 20 Pounds by now.
Just deleted a response...stick with Dannon yogurt. Cut out 'roach coach' convenience too. Eliminate every source of food contamination...they tell us not to eat in subway cars BUT where is safe and sanitary? Had Influenza immunisation at 207th...nurse/practioner asked me when I had my last Tetanus shot.
At least fast food/pizza/bottled sodas remain safe. CI Peter
Sounds as if Sal Monella paid an unwelcome visit.:(
I used to work at a place which was next to a CHICKEN DELIGHT, and every so often we would find a delivery truck in the lot emblazoned with the words "MENELLA POULTRY CO." (along with a rooster in a Superman suit). I often wondered where Sal himself was. And the flies this place generated!!! You'd need a mosquito net to keep them off you. They infested every inch of our storefront office; we'd go after 'em by swatting them with 5 1/4" diskettes.
wayne
No WONDER you had the "official bird of NYC" problems. In OUR shop, we had EIGHT inch diskettes to do them in faster. :)
Was the Shell No-Pest Strip still available at that time?
They had a bug zapper with a purple lite, they'd empty it twice a day.
wayne
Nah, there was no cab in the restaurant. :)
I will NEVER EVER go the Chinese Food place on Dyre Ave bet Light St and E 233 St. I was sick for over 24HRS.
As Dave Barry says, "I am not making this up". Get a load of this Chinese menu page (click on it for a bandwidth-hogging larger version):
I definitely do not want to try "Strange Flavored Chicken" and I'm not too keen on "Slippery Chicken" either...
Back when Ed Koch wanted to become governor, he came up to Smallbany and pronounced officially that there was no Chinese food to be had here. He was right - straight from one of our local "take out only" shops located near the railyard:
Wun Hung Lo Chinese Restaurant
Carry Out Menu
MEAT DISHES
1. Bol Oxs..................Hot Meat Balls
2. Sur Kum Sihz.............Sausage Slices
3. Hol Mein Kok.............Scrag end encased in ladyfingers
4. Dik Sor..................Rolled pork fillet rubbed in chile powder
5. Eja Kul Lait.............Shaft of mutton in white cream sauce
6. Rek Tum Blok.............Oversized baked sausage
7. Long Dik.................Coq in van
8. Yu Nux...................Meatball extract
9. Veri Ti Rin..............Massive extrusion of forcemeat
VEGETABLES
10. Wan Kin..................Bamboo shoots
11. Pei Sof..................Chinese leaves
12. Wot Kung Fu Dat..........Tossed salad
13. Sik In Lu................Sweet and sour hot sauce
14. Pu Bik...................Young sprouts
15. Du Reks..................Entre Coat
16. Hoo Pong In Kar See......Yellow rice with meat droppings
17. Hoo Kum On Mat...........Thick white rice on ryebread
SAUCES
18. Pei Sol..................Cantonese drippings
19. Sei Men Drip.............Delicately flavoured white sauce
20. Yu Kum...................Hot custard
21. Tor Soff.................Hand-made thick white sauce
22. Hu Lade Turd.............Brown sauce with nuts
23. Fan Tom Ar Sol...........Invisible brown sauce without nuts
SPECIALITIES
24. Lik Mein.................Plate of the day
25. Fug Yu...................Chinese toast
26. Munth Lei................Popular dish of the period
27. Kow Poo..................Savoury pan cakes
28. Doggi Bag................Chinese take away
29. Ho Mo....................Sausage surprise
30. Bo Gee...................Pick of the week
DESSERTS
31. Vee Dee..................Spotted Dick
32. Kum In Yu................Cream Squirt
33. Yu Pong..................Crap suzette
34. Kum Lots.................Extra portion of cream
35. Ars Pik..................Chocolate fingers
36. Hoo Shat in Fann.........Chocolate spread
37. Or Jee...................Chinese stuffing on bed of mandarins
38. Es Kie Mo Kum............Frosted banana cream
39. Tu Tun On Goo Lies.......Crushed Nuts
40. Wun Hung Lo..............Mixed nuts
41. Tu Brik Smak.............Puree of nuts
42. Di Rere..................Chinese afters in aromatic sauce
43. Hu Pong..................Chinese snifters
44. Kwik Wank................Cream slice
BEVERAGES
45. Yu Rine..................Jasmine Tea
46. Wob Li Tit...............Milk Shake
Chopsticks extra.
Hey Kev, did you catch the Moo Shi Chicken?
Are you sure you're not making up any of that stuff? Some of those items are pretty funny.
Sounds suspiciously like squab to me, doesn't it?
wayne
There was Moo Shi Pork also - somehow sounded more logical. Was it real? The original poster ASSURES me that he had a phone number for the place and they will confirm it. Me? I had no doubts. I did a few of the "buffet" places around Branford, and man oh man was it GREAT. Not like the pupu platters in our local joints. I guess no self-respecting Oriental capable of cooking goes north of Yankers ... :(
ROTFLMAO!!!:O>
Where's our all-time favorite, Hoo Flung Dung?
wayne
Albany County Health Department required a substitution. Since the restaurant in question doesn't permit substitutions, the pork had to be pulled. That in turn caused problems with North Carolina. :)
Eeewwwwwwww!!
I'm printing this and taking it to work.
Unca Kevin: do you really think this post will escape MY bulliten board at 239th? What is missing is 'Chinese Chicken,' fatted R142 homing pigeons. CI Peter
If you eat the Chinese chicken your brain will stop ticking.
So ADD it ... they still issue pens, no? :)
They even serve leftovers. Why would I want George's Chicken? I'd want a fresh plate of my own! Let George take his chicken leftovers home in a doggy bag!
If the food isn't your thing, there's a real special on the "Delight of Three" and the "Delight of Four" selections :)
--Mark
Dave, you should've stayed with the basic food groups: Mickey D's, WC's, BK's Wendy's, Jamaican beef patties or pizza...anything else is stomach pumping time! ;)
Doug
At Dyre we don't have much Options. We have a chicken Place , Pizza, and Chinese. There is a dinner but closes by 4PM.
I will be there. By the way, I finished probation today.
Congrats!
Good luck to all of you Wednesday.
Thanks.
Congrats on "permanent" status, bro! Gonna celebrate by hitting a homey? :)
Nah. I have dubbed myself "Rookie of the year". Truth is, I am one of maybe 4 or 5 people from my class who has NEVER hit a signal or overran a station. I hope to keep the streak going, straight through my eventual B division transfer.
Aw, YOU'RE no fun. :)
Seriously, that's the way to survive the road, good on you!
I had an unfair advantage over many of my classmates. I've been railfanning at the operating position for so long, that I had a much better idea of what this job was about, and how to handle timers. I always told them to join me in the front whenever school car was finished, but they were too lazy to walk to the front of the train. It's no coincidence that those who had the worst infractions, are those who showed the least amount of interest in school car.
Congrats again. You did not have an unfair advantage over your classmates...just a serious outside interest. I went in cold...learned everything I could to compete with insiders for Signal Maintainer...I'm # 12 on the list. Same for Car Inspectors list...cold off the street, asked about electrial/plumbing fittings...made top third and now permanent. The Car Inspectors with the worst records...are those with 'relations', are those who fell asleep in R142 Intro when I could teach the course and come after me to fix every problem they have not learned to tackle. LuchAAA...remember my golden rule: 'English is the language of communication and safety.' Then get written up. CI Peter
Heh. So much for the old TA theory "we don't hire foamers, they're nothing but trouble and know it alls" ... well, yeah. :)
It AIN'T as easy as it looks. Some folks came to Branford a couple of weekends ago and learned first hand. But it ain't so HARD either as long as you're paying attention. I *still* can't believe they need door enablers. Woof.
CONGRATULATIONS on finishing probation, truly. I know that feeling!!!
NOW on to permanance. I may be a few minutes late...you can find me...I'll have the safety vest with '239' on the back. Now for the fashion question: do I go for the 'denim look' or the 'CI Peter Khaki uniform?' ALL is moot if I wear the blue rainsuit underneath the vest. CI Peter
Geez ... I thought we cured you of that "I'm gonna get wet, I'm melllllting" fetish at Branford? :)
Congrats on passing probation!!
Yeah it’s still me; GP38 is now "GP38 Chris". I just wanted something a bit more personal, with my name. I didn’t want to drop the GP38, because that is what everyone knows me as (even though the GP38-2’s don’t even run on the LIRR anymore), and even though I wouldn’t mind a more "subway" oriented handle. But, anyway, I didn’t want a complete change of handle, and since that is what I had chosen when I originally joined SubTalk (because that is what I used to use when I used to frequent the LIRR forum which ironically, I hardly ever post on anymore).
But at least the GP38-2’s still run on the NYA, so they are still in the region.
But this is important stuff: choosing your SubTalk handle, naming your firstborn child, etc.....lol.
So when you see "GP38 Chris", know that it's still me....GP38 (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing)....
Well, I love Sub Talking with all of you!
GP38 Chris
Alright!!
Whew, when I saw the new name, I thought it was some other guy named Chris, stealing your name!
Whew, when I saw the new name, I thought it was some other guy named Chris, stealing your name!
LOL, Well, I was thinking of making it CPCTC Chris, but I thought I better not......
Was just watching the subway scene from this movie. Great shots of Low-V's and an unrehabbed Yankee Stadium. However, the station they identify as "Bowling Green" obviously isn't the real station. I'd swear it was the Court St. IND terminal, with some round support columns to give the appearance of a Contract I IRT station. Anyone know for sure?
>>> the station they identify as "Bowling Green" obviously isn't the real station <<<
It looked authentic to me (except for the phoney telephone booth), but others have identified it as Court Street. Did you ever use the original Bowling Green station?
Tom
What did the station's columns look like -- Bowling Green's are round on the original island platform; Court Street is the standard later square girder that was used from 1913 onward.
>>> What did the station's columns look like <<<
They were round. As I said it certainly looked like Bowing Green to me, and since it was clear that they were filming at the real 161st Street Station, it is logical that they used the real Bowling Green also. If it was the real station I would assume it was done in the wee hours of a Sunday morning to minimize the disruption of service. Looking at the current track maps there appears to be a switch just north of the station and the South Ferry inner loop just south of the station, so with motormen at each end of the train the physical movement of the train used in the movie could be limited to the immediate area.
Tom
Anyone know for sure?
Yes, it is Court St and not Bowling Green. There was a NY Times article at the time the movie was made, describing the make over.
Thanks. I knew it was an IND station from the wall tiles, but couldn't place it exactly.
A number of conflicting messages have been posted about people being chased/not being chased from the parking lot north of 30th Street Station, as the situation is constantly changing.
I traveled to the Rockhill Trolley Museum PCC charter last Sunday from Germantown Depot by taking the NJT AC line to 30th Street and then SEPTA R8 Chestnut Hill West (the Pennsy Chestnut Hill Local to people of my generation) to Carpenter Lane and walking 3 or 4 blocks.
During my layover at 30th Street, I ventured out into the parking lot to photograph the Pennsylvanian, Amtrak train #43, which I had seen from the NJT train coming in to 30th St. I had also photographed the Amtrak Express cars in the station, since the NJT train came in across the platform from where the Pennsylvanian was boarding.
Considering the FBI warning about the threat of anti-train terrorism, I expected to be asked to leave the lot. The venture was rewarded, though, when the Pennsylvanian pulled out and the second GE P42DC, #142, put up a smoke screen. I photographed the passenger cars, the express cars and the Roadrailers, since the latter two may soon be history.
On my way back to the station, I saw that I had a clear, unobstructed view of Amtrak GP9 “Pumpkin” #772, and as I raised the camera, I heard a stern voice call “Sir!” I pretended that no one would call me ‘sir’ and ignored it, but I didn’t ignore the subsequent shout of “SIR!!!” I turned around, without taking the picture, and a uniformed man (police of security, I take my glasses off to use the camera viewfinder so I couldn’t tell), and he said “No taking pictures of trains…security.”
So I missed my unobstructed pumpkin shot and had to be content with a partially obstructed shot from the SEPTA Regional Rail platform and another shot with two HHP-8’s in the picture with the pumpkin.
Not a bad layover.
The man was exceeding his authority.
It may be useful for you to ask Amtrak for a written opinion on the subject.
If you can get such a letter, you can carry a copy with you, and show it to an officer or security guard. If he/she still doesn't desist, you can take it to the next level.
At that point you should have walked to a public overpass and continued taking pics of whatever you could just for spite.
Thanks, Mike. How much bail money can I count on you for?
Last time I checked security rent-a-cops can't arrest you.
until you find yourself in handcuffs quick fast and in a hurry !!
& man do they move fast !!!
I got chased out of the Employee lot, down below the public lot run by KennyPark or something like that, I know that I was sure as heck not supposed to be there, and on my last trip was surprised that nobody stopped me. I have yet to go back to that area of 30th St station, waethers been crappy, plus Drexel would seem to have hit it's stride when it comes to leveling work at it's students, I've been swamped. The time before last, when I was caught, about the time that Salaam Allah was visiting NY and spreading his own unique joy, I was told to go to the Yardmaster (or maybe just supervisor, not sure, either way he had an office and some people meeting with him) and get a Photo permit for Amtrak. I am pretty sure that Amtrak doesn't give photo passes like NYCT or SEPTA (quiet Salaam) to just anybody, and that the guy who refered me didn't know what he was talking about.
The very interesting thing about when I got caught was that the Supervisor simply said, "Come back and see me on the weekend," this caught me off guard. Could it be that on the weekends Amtrak cares less about what is going on?
There is another lot near 30th St that is also great for train watching, but they are insanely vigilant. The lot is on JFK just east of the station, and runs the remaining length of JFK to where it becomes 32nd, which in turn ends where drexel bought it out south of Market. It is a public lot, and is accessable from lie any of 4 entrances around midday (later they close all but one), and it offers superb views of SEPTA regional rail trains heading into and out of the Penn side of the 30th St Septa platforms. In addition the High Line runs right across the parking lot, maybe 2/3s of the way to the east (with some great signs about parking under the Tracks at the vehicle owners own risk, wonder if CSX and NS knew about them when they bought it). In theory this should setup some great photo ops, with a freight on the High Line and a Silverliner pulling into or out of 30th St (more likely into, the outbound penn tracks are way over like 6 tracks away, slightly depressed), but unfortunately freights aren't too common on the High Line, and, as I said at the top, security is insane, the one and only time I shot from the lot, I got two photos off, and was walking east toward the highline to get a shot of the signs, which I found hilarious. I snapped my shot, and started walking toward the exit down at the very eastern end. I hadn't been in the lot 5 minutes, when a security guard came running up and told me to stop, and that I had to leave, I complied, mostly cause chances are I'm gonna see them at least one other day during my next 4 or 5 years, and I don't want them to think I'm some arrogant college kid.
The Philadelphia Parking Authorities headquarters on the otherhand, can stick it as far as I'm concerned. If there ever needed to be a West Philly Gestapo, these guys would fit the build perfectly. They are completely insane, I do not know what happened to them to make them so damn paranoid, but the whole building needs to lay off the caffiene or something. I tried to take a picture of a CSX SD70MAC on the Highline from their side (the south side) of JFK, big mistake. Just as I got the camera up and aimed, a woman burst out the Fire Door closest to me, waving her arms and telling me to stop, that I couldn't photograph anywhere near the building. I was on the east side of the Highline, next to the Drexel One plaza, camera pointed skyward, and the PPA headquarters nowhere near viewfinder. She motioned me over to her, screaming to make herself heard over the freight. She got me back down to by 32nd St, where she wanted me to come in for questioning. Here I refused, I had not taken any photos of the PPA, and knew that they had nothing on me outside of some video tape of me walking down 32nd and JFK looking the complete other way. Then she wanted the camera, so that they could examine the photos. To this I kinda consented finally, I pulled out the camera, it's adaptor cable, and my laptop, and proceded to show her the photos that I had taken for the past week. She actually called her mananger and another security guard out to the corner of 32nd and JFK, where we had a meeting, and they looked at my pictures of trains. It did have some pictures of the PPA headquarters, shots of a NS train with C40-9s on the High Line, with the PPA in the background, little more than a out of focus blue smudge. The manager let me go, but told me to watch out the next time I was near the headquarters. Pigs.
I gotta stop now, I'm starting to sound like a certain cab rider, there are a few other good spots around 30th St station, most of them are pretty self-evident, like the view of septas yard from 33rd st, or the walk down JFK boulevard east of 30th st, west of 20th st.
Thank for reading this long and quite ranting post
omg next time you will have to show your papers .....like back in
the dayz of world war 2 !! ...............!!
"The very interesting thing about when I got caught was that the Supervisor simply said, "Come back and see me on the weekend," this caught me off guard. Could it be that on the weekends Amtrak cares less about what is going on? "
It could be that this supervisor is a kind fellow who's willing to accommodate you because he appreciates what you want to do. I would take him up on his offer, and be as nice and respectful of him as you can.
And if there is any way you can "scratch his back" one day, then you should.
"Then she wanted the camera, so that they could examine the photos."
If you had taken a picture of the Philadelphia Parking Authority Headquarters Building, I suppose she would have suspected you of being a dangerous terrorist staking out one of the most critical targets in America.
It does make you wonder what they are drinking or smoking.
Follow the story here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2372157.stm
Heh, you won't see any wind whipped salt foulinf PRR style heavy doty insulators. Those baby's are built to resist hurricanes. I don't know what people are thinking with those new "waffer" style insulators. All it takes is the slightest ice storm to bridge the gap.
Heh, you won't see any wind whipped salt foulinf PRR style heavy doty insulators.
Perhaps, but they're a bear to clean and break up. Not a bad design, though.
Those baby's are built to resist hurricanes.
Oh, they'll break if hit right. BB guns used to be the culprit years ago. *pop* and there goes the insulator.
I don't know what people are thinking with those new "waffer" style insulators.
Beats me. Probbably cheaper or something like that Might be the way the forces act on them, too.
All it takes is the slightest ice storm to bridge the gap.
PRR style insulators aren't perfect either - they develop leakage. Actually, I'm guessing the PRR used that style because it was 'off the shelf' in the teens - it's a common insulator design in the power world.
BTW, in extreme instances, they can explode too, I believe. The ribbing helps cut leakage in less than optimal situations, but isn't foolproof, and can trap dirt and junk.
Many power companies and electric RRs actually wash their insulators occasionally with distilled water. Power companies also use IR cameras on helicopters to scan lines for 'hot spots' - places where a resistance increase (bad wire, bad splice, etc), causes the wire to heat up a little more than other places.
I bet Amtrak does it too. You can find a trouble spot long before it becomes a big problem.
In some countries, they work on 100,000 + volt transmission lines via helicopter - no ground means no need to turn off the power.
BTW - ever notice the 'insulators' on the guy wires on the marquee over the entrance at Newark's Penn. Looks like the archetects were having a bit of fun with design....
I'l have to take a look at Newark Penn. I never cease to wonder how those waffer insulators can even stand up to a light rain shower. Good thing that Amtrak continues to install the heavy duty concave jobbers on the NEC.
Insulators which are linked together in a chain are called suspension insulators. "Fog Type" suspensions have an elongated ribbed skirt which is parallel with the insulator string. This is the optimal insulator design for sea coast areas. Learn More:
http://www.lappinsulator.com/downloadcenter/catalogs.asp
For info on third rail insulators click on:
LAPP Special Porcelain Catalog
for info on suspension insulators click on:
LAPP IEC Porcelain Suspension Insulators Catalog
John: Your query the other day about IND destinations on Standard rollsigns prompted me to do a little reasearch. In 1959 it was reported that 179 St, 34 St-6 Av,Smith-9 St and Church Av had been added to some of the higher 2000's as the TA was considering the possibility of using them in GG service. This of course never came to pass. During the the IND equiptment meltdown in the summer of 1966 R-16's were sent to the GG themselves being replaced by Standards pulled off the scrapline.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry,
Were there any additions to the route sign or would they use Culver Exp or local ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
What prompted my inquiry was viewing a roll sign for sale on E-Bay,
which was the route sign with "GG Bklyn-Queens" spliced in. The
large size from the upper 2000 AB-Standards. May not be exact,
but what caught my eye on the bottom of the rolled out
curtain with the "GG" spliced on. Had no inclination to purchase,
but somebody kabitzed me about the "GG", so I said what the hay,
let's have some fun and post the question on Sub~Talk. It was
one of those, "What Might Have Occured". Did receive serious
replys though, from a pair of Branfordites. Thanks Steve & Larry.
;-) Sparky
Were there any additions to the route sign or would they use Culver Exp or local ?
Bill: I see that John has answered the question. You are right though they almost could have used Culver Local signs if they ran past Church Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For a much-maligned series of subway cars, the R-16 seems to have been the cavalry in multiple situations:
Placed into GG service in 1966 because of the IND R-1/9 car problems
100 taken out of mothballs to replace crack-prone R-46s in 1979
Replaced R-27/R-30s as they went through their GOH in the early - mid 1980s
Used on the Franklin Ave shuttle to make up the third car when the R-11s left
--Mark
Why were the R16's chosen to be x-ferred to the GG in 1966? IIRC, they only had the BMT number codes on their rollsigns. Newer R27/30's and R32's already had all the routes on their signs and could have been used with less preparation.
If you look in the photo section of NY Subway Resources, you will find a shot of an R16 at Smith-9th Street on the "GG".
They replaced the original destination sign rolls with the newer, multi-colored ones. The one in the photo has a greeen "GG" in a circle.
If you look in the photo section of NY Subway Resources, you will find a shot of an R16 at Smith-9th Street on the "GG".
They replaced the original destination sign rolls with the newer, multi-colored ones. The one in the photo has a greeen "GG" in a circle.
Steve: This was actually a little bit before the multi-colored rollsigns. The R-16's simply had "CONTINENTAL AV" added to the upper roll and "SMITH-9th ST" added to the lower with "GG B'KLYN-QUEENS" added to the route roller.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Those signs date to 1969. In 1966, the R16's had only the BMT numbers on their rollsigns, like this:
However, some did receive new letter signs before the color rollsigns were installed:
What station is the QJ in?
Also, that early form of graffiti on that 10 (M) train was signed by "satan".
That's a QJ at Dekalb, circa 1968.
Yes and the letters "DTH" were for "Down To Kill"
avid
Yes and the letters "D T K " were for "Down To Kill" neighborhood gang talk. IIRC
avid
Yep, DTK was Down To Kill....We also used to write LAMF- Like A MutherF#####...*L*
DTK/LAMF....Jeez, nostalgia NYC streets style. :)
That sure looks like a pasted-on 95th St. sign on the side of 6464. Must be a holdover from the RJ.
It meant pulling Standards of the scrap line, and the only place they would dare send them is the Eastern Division, probably rush-hour only Bway-Bklyn locals to displace whatever few R16's ran on that service.
Has the TA not been so damned hasty with the Triplexes, they could have been the solution. I do remember an R16 one weekend on the GG with all roll signs set perfectly. Some R16's ran on the A in the 1950's, so I assume some had IND settings inaddition to routes 10 to 16.
I don't know how my browser put that IRM title in the above post.
You must be using Netscape.
Netscape 7 ... turn OFF the "remember my password" and "use autocomplete for forms" ... it's BROKEN. Same for Mozilla from which Netscape 7 derived.
OK, but where do I find that ? I looked all around Preferences ?
Also, how do I get make this forum to stop asking me for my user ID everytime I look at an article ? (6.2 didn't do that)
I honestly don't remember - we tested Nutscrape 7 with our NSClean product to make sure we were good to go, but I found 7 to be *so* phucked up, we removed it. "remember passwords" and "autocomplete forms" is in there in one of the boxes in preferences, on one of the minor options but I don't remember where. That stopped it though for me.
But it was just SO hosed (I still use usenet newsgroups, and that was COMPLETELY hosed in 7) that I ditched it and rolled back to 4.76 ... but all you describe are brand new bugs in 7, AOL just keeps adding more and more insects ...
I would gladly go back to 4.78 and 4.79, but VIA Rail and Best Western won't work on any NS below 6.2
I have a personal policy here - if a site won't work with Netscape 4.7x, then the site no longer exists and I go elsewhere. Guess it's an age thing but I *refuse* to let clueless geeks who can't compose HTML force me to use what THEY want me to use for a browser.
The ONLY reason why pages don't come up in Netscape is that the webmaster is an IDIOT and can't compose proper HTML. Even with scripting OFF, there's (NOSCRIPT) tags that can be used to feed a browser that has scripting off. And if you can't close a tag after opening one, then that piece (or the whole page) won't show.
Sites that hire clueless webmasters are also the sites that get hijacked and defaced. I avoid THOSE like the plague. I'd write to the management of both operations and tell them that you can't see their sites and that they might want to consider hiring a COMPETENT webmaster since there have never been so many GOOD webmasters currently out of work willing to work cheaper than the kid they're using now. :)
I wrote a nasty letter to Best Western about it, and they wrote back basically saying "eff you" nicely, use 6.2 or IE. There are too many sites I would have to shut off. I detest Bill Gates and IE more than the obnoxious geeks that set up webpages who think MS should be a monopoly.
Well ... I haven't been overly impressed by Best Western hotels, so no loss in my book. You're always free to vote with your wallet. The older, dumber browsers don't stuff your sock with diseases. :)
I don't know how my browser put that IRM title in the above post.
You know that's a sore spot with me - slaughtering the Triplexes prematurely. Had they been retained and had they been pressed into service during the Jamaica Yard Crisis, it would have meant different equipment shuffling. For starters, the Triplexes couldn't run on the Jamaica line because the elevated portion above Fulton St. could not support their axle weight. Perhaps Jamaica Yard would have borrowed R-27/30s or R-32s from the Southern Division in such a scenario.
Jamaica yard ... ya know? After checking out 1689 and talking to a sheetload of old timers, it looks as though that major crisis in Queens with the Arnines was either manufactured as a crisis by CED or they were IDIOTS. Since I knew many CI's and RCI's that I respected, I'd lean towards the FORMER as the cause of the Arnine meltdowns that preceded my entry into the TA. What I've come to learn is that those of us "eggs" out of schoolcar were sold a bill of goods as to just how RELIABLE the Arnines really were, and that the whole disaster of car shortage was a combination of people failing to order spare parts and a decision that was a result of workplace rule changes ...
My own experiences with Arnines on the road was that they were more decrepit than the rustboids are today (and many bore the testimony in metal failure in MY day) ... but at the same time, I've been told by many in a better seniority that they were indestructable ... wasn't until recently that I'm seeing their point. And I've heard it all again lately.
Same for the trips ... also "indestructable unless screwed with" ... there was a LOT of "union intrigue" going on at the time that pre-dated my own entry, but it's all starting to come together now as word of our Branford adventures has filtered down among the older "lurkers" here who just read who have contacted me ... that Roosevelt Avenue wreck REALLY broke TWU up in a big way. No WONDER I ran into the crap I ran into as part of the "rank and file" group ... and the degree of bad blood in TWU I had no idea of at the time. Yow.
Looks like some day, I need to write a book now that so many holes I hadn't figured out are getting paved in for me. By the way, THANKS to all who have written sharing their Arnine "war stories!" :)
Reason I said all this is that I spent an hour talking with an 87 year old car inspector who was hired by the IND on DAY ONE ... according to him, Pullman built "el toro caca" as far as NYC trainsets went, and 1689 was "pick of the litter" when ACF came in as a late "prototype provider" when the city was keen on building a second avenue subway and hired up ACF to develop the R-10 ...
IN OTHER WORDS, 1689 was a "prototype" among 50 or so cars to BID to build the R-10 and several designs were tried out in that group of cars, though they were BUILT according to existing spec. Apparently the group switches and a number of other things in the GE prototype gear were intended to be used in the R-10's that ACF had bid on. THAT'S supposedly why ACF got involved in existing Pullman and Pressed Steel contracts and why they got sublet a piece of the R9 build. So I hear from my buddy for what it's worth, but the guy is clear and still full of pyth and vinegrette ...
Anyhoo, he says the R1 motor fiasco was accomplished with grease on the commutators so that they could wage a war against Ronan. I'd tend to believe his account ...
Are you saying 1689 had more robust components as a result?
Yep, and they were younger than many of the others, so lessons learned were applied during the building. While I despise GE because of the company's recent policies, and their propulski was a bit whimpier than the Westinghouse-equipped cars, they WERE more solid, and I'm told they were easier to repair than the W's ...
Eddie S. picked a good car for Shoreline. I'm sure he knew all about 1689 and its innards.
I'm SURE he did ... she's a real sweetie, even better than I'd ever hoped for. If they had MORE like her in the TA, Arnines would STILL be holding down the CC and GG ... I couldn't get over how nicely she gallopped. Even stopped pretty damned good also, even if it was a bit short owing to not having my detents to tell me where I was.
I'd have to agree even thought you had to move the brake valve almost to emergency before the brakes started to grab.
Almost? Heh. Emergency is the zone just past "handle out." We went a few more degrees before that magic puff of air. It's funny though - those who DIDN'T know how to work and Arnine had an easier time than those of us who expected air at "8 o'clock" and got fung-gots. But STILL, worked JUST fine once you found the sweet spot. So what if you couldn't pull a minibrake? :)
Lou went over the basics briefly: here's release, here's lap, here's emergency, etc. Braking was interesting on my first turn at the handles: "Brake....more....more....LAP!!" Too late - EH-H-H-HRRRRR-RRR!!!!!!!
Steve,
You did BIE?
;-) Sparky
Not quite. 1689 slowed down dramatically, but didn't dump. Lou can correct me on this if I'm wrong.
I did better on my second turn.
Or as they said in school car, "No! To your OTHER LEFT!" :)
LOL. Sounds like something Yogi Berra would say.:)
I actually had a motor instructor yell that at me before he slapped my hand and dumped the train. :)
Funny, two of the fastest pre-war IND cars I ever rode were both GE's, but they were also Pullmans. Not sure if that made a difference or not.
wayne
I'm no mechanical expert on them, but I *do* believe the propulski was the same ... my understanding is that the GE propulski WAS whimpier than the Westinghouse propulski, but over time the Westinghouse stuff petered out faster - shorted turns, missing bars on the grids and other problems. The GE motors simply outlasted the WH's. But like I said, don't take my word for it, I just ran 'em and the GE's were usually THERE when you needed them.
One was 1233. Which one was the other? Did it also hit A-440?
The other was 1277! It got up to A-flat in the tunnel.
wayne
Wait a minute. Was that while Ralph was losing his lunch on 9/11/73? I thought you said that train only got up to maybe F# above middle C. OTOH you said you rode on 1277 again in November of that year. Maybe it got up to Ab then.
Ab on 9/11/1973;
F# on 11/04/1973.
Sorry for the confusion.
wayne
Don't forget those trains which included 1233 and 1277 probably had a lot of good motors. Ditto for that R-10 F train with 3080 in the lead. You know what happens to a train with bad motors. The trip over the Manhattan Bridge becomes a death march.
Ab on 9/11/1973;
F# on 11/06/1973 - not 11/4 as previously stated.
Sorry for the additional confusion!
wayne
I think I got my pitches confused from the various accounts of that ride from hell. Based on what you've said earlier, that crush-loaded train got up to F# along Queens Blvd. and Ab through the rock-'n-roll tunnel jaunt.
The only problem with that theory is that 1689 was built in 1940,
8 years before the R-10 order. There's nothing under 1689 that
is unusual for an R1-9 GE car. Certainly is pretty different from
PCM control which was found under the GE R-10s. I haven't seen any
evidence that any other groups were ever under 1689.
Whoops ... lead you astray there ... wasn't even SUGGESTING that it was like a 1575 experiment, what I had been told was that ACF was to get the R10 contract and apparently Pullman or Pressed Steel did the R10 mods to 1575. The partial order of R9's that went to ACF was a "test" supposedly to see if they could build R10's to schedule.
As far as I knew, 1689 and her mates were the standard *GE* version of what had been done before, but BoT was nervous about giving ACF such a large car order. That was what I'd been told. Sorry for confusing the issue on ya there ...
Unca Kevin...do you mean that I could work as a Car Inspector at the age of 87??? I'd have 39 years in for retirement benefits...the only problem might be getting my wheelchair or some more technically advanced mobility device down 'in the hole.' CI Peter
Heh. Well, if they privatize social security, ya just might have to. My buddy Pete got out of CIY *many* years ago but is still going strong for his age. You'd like him, he's a REAL nudge. :)
The Standards ran on the "M" (#10) as well as the short (#14).
wayne
And, of course, the Canarsie (#16).
For a much-maligned series of subway cars, the R-16 seems to have been the cavalry in multiple situations:
Mark: You make a good point. I always liked the R-16' s and it seems that they were always there in the clutch.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
They even subbed for Arnine put-ins on the D ... went and looked at some of the photos, and THOSE were what I remember with the water faucet door controls that I took out once or twice in my day ...
I told you so!:)
I like your analogies to the various door controls - bottle tops, water faucets, etc. Inquiring minds want to know: was the electric brake plug universally referred to as a butt plug by motormen?
Actually, no ... not to the old timers. Folks around my age called them that though. There was another name that was used that I won't use here, but most of us receive spam every day advising us that certain advertisers are capable of making "it" larger. The word is sometimes used as a synonym for "detective." :)
_ _ _ _ Tracy?
-Robert King
Moo. :)
Or maybe:
Ding! Ding! Ding!
BUTT PLUG.........never saw or heard of one till Branford. So I go up to the supply counter and ask for a TA butt plug..the key to move older trainsets. Better to ask for a lock of Ghandis hair...I'll mike the key and make my own. Need slack adjuster tools...no longer in TA manufacture...snow blocks stuck into my oil filter wrench should work at Branford. CI Peter
"Electric brake plug, quantity one" ... out of stock for DECADES. Last place they lived that I knew of was the Artens ... there's probably a sheetload of them in the dumpsters from the rubble of Stillwell perhaps, but I know they've been out of stock on those a LONG LONG time or I'd have one. I'm sure Unca Jeff can scare one up for ya, TA doesn't need 'em anymore.
Ah, so the R-10s used an electric brake plug, too. Why would they use one, being SMEE cars, when other SMEEs didn't?
Dunno, but the hole was there. Maybe it was used as a keychain hanger. Chalk it up as another ACF mystery. :)
Maybe ACF had leftover controller handles and wanted to use them up.
Paging Dr. Padrone! :)
Did you notice that the controller in Heypaul's cab even has an electric brake plug in it?
Ah, haven't been there in a while, have we? He took that out and replaced it with an Otis Elevator controller so it could look just like 1227. :)
But yes, even with the stands reversed, it was QUITE complete. ANd dunno if you noticed, but on the ME23 stand, the DETENTS were nice and solid and even without air, the float moved nicely. I don't think he'll ever invite me back though, I'd likely strip it for parts for Branford. heh.
I've never been to Heypaul's myself. Checked out the photo on his webpage to see if the controller handle was plugged and sure enough, it was.
We'll have to organize a Pilgrimage ... "Subtalker's Heypaul Cab event - a tour from Concourse yard to Sheepshead Bay via D train" ... might take a few years to get it together though. :)
As a novice and a layman, I found this thread fascinating, and at times totally incomprehnsable. I'd love to hear all the"Arnine war stories" you could recount, but I don't understand all the insiders and technical terms you use. Post the stories here, or write your book, I'll wait till it gets published. But please "dumb it down" for people like me who think R-32s are old.
Well, I've pretty much already shot my wad here since folks prefer that we refer to the "archives" here on things that have already been posted rather than repeating them. I went around nycsubway.org looking for a "cab shot" of an Arnine or an R10 which was somewhat similar and amazingly, there AREN'T any!
So I pray that Uncle Harry Beck over at "Other Side of the Tracks" will forgive me for posting one of HIS copyrighted photos over here (if not, then he'll have to run the Arnine without me watching over him, heh) but perhaps this picture down below will give you a feel for the car. ACF of course, is American Car and Foundry, builders of 1689 at the Branford museum. The "hole" I referred to receives the "butt plug" or "electric brake plug" as formally known. "Butt plug" is a kinder replacement for what many motormen of yore referred to the implement as, a four letter word often also used to refer to a "detective" particularly of the independent variety.
The housing next to that gauge that has a slot on top receives the BRAKE handle, and the other "stand" nearest the cab door is the controller. You'll notice the controller is mounted in place there and is in the "released" (up) position. Note the round thing to its left mounted above it, that's where the "butt plug" plugs in. With the electric brake enabled, control of multiple cars' air is much better since you don't have to deal with the propagation time of air through all that pipe. Newer subway cars have the feature built in to the braking nowadays and don't require the "butt plug" thus I s'pose it's obscure to folks that weren't around for the older cars ...
Is this butt plug a type of key?
Mysterious "butt plug" exposed, film at 11 ... (picture courtesy "The Joe Korner")
And yet another "butt plug" revelation as our own Bill Newkirk illustrates other uses of the buttplug to Car Inspector Peter such as convincing the geese on an Arnine to settle down and stop pestering the motorman ... (picture courtesy BMTman)
Anyone care to apply a caption to that pic?:)
Every now and then someone takes a snap that says it all. :)
Thank You, Kev!
Such a USEFUL device. :)
Mmmmmmmmmooooooo-oooooooooooo!!!
I have a buddy out here who can rig up a device to replace the trumpet on 1689 or 1227 to MAKE a "Moooooo" sound ... don't MESS with me, boy. :)
That whistle on 1689 doesn't sound like a trumpet at all.
OTOH I can just picture 1227 or for that matter any car emitting a moo sound. The looks on visitor's faces would be priceless.
I did pretty OK at confusing folks with my steam whistle when I was out there hand-trhowing switches. Heh. Even Unca Jeff emitted a "what da fuh?" Priceless. :)
You know, with all the time we spent on 1689, I never did ask you about that control apparatus that fell in your lap back in your TA days.
Oh! Attack of the STORY MONSTER then! :)
It was the controller DOOR that opened, and part of the CAM assmbly fell out, having broken and the spring letting it go. It arced and sparked on the cover which popped open on my leg.
What I *DIDN'T* know at the time was that it was a piddly 37.5 volts, and NOT "third rail" ... the arcing and sparking was MOST impressive nonetheless ... hey, dumbass "United Motorman Division" folks were given all sorts of SERIOUS "arc and sparc" and told "don't TOUCH!". :)
All this poor suckup knew was it was up against his jewels, and it wanted to BITE, not lick. Heh. It wasn't until I got to HeyPaul's Arnine cab and he was gracious enough to let me snap the suspenders on the controller and brakestand on HIS (I didn't DARE open up Branford's) that I realized HOW things were wired and suddenly got into (later) my OWN BVE "gotta get me and other some whatever brakestands and controller stands there are so some TRANSIT MUSEUMS could load up BVE, put their GUESTS behind REAL SUBWAY control stands in a mockup cab and, through BVE, *RUN a REAL subway train withough giving Unca Lou tsuris. Heh.
But that's my story, and I'm sticking TO it. :)
OK, I get the picture now. Must have scared the pants off you when it happened. So Heypaul's controller has the innards too, eh? BTW, Lou showed me where 1689's cutting valve is. Does Heypaul's cab have that, too? Oh and I didn't notice any air gauge in his cab. That elevator controller is installed where the air gauge would go.
Yeah, he's got it *ALL* ... Branford should make him a deal, but I suppose I know what the answer is, I wouldn't give up a pair of mint stands either unless I got handle time EVERY time I was in the mood. Heh. So you bent over to cut the team, eh? And while Unca Bill was in the car with his own butt plug? You're a brave man, Carl. :)
I just asked Lou where the cutting valve was and he pointed it out to me. And I was standing, too!:) For some reason I thought it was on the controller stand. Didn't think to ask about 6688's cutting valve.
Heh. Handily nearby. :)
In subbing for my brother transit worker Roger Toussaint, I learned about 'Dicks Dog (inverted.)' This is a tool that has a large clench to remove railspikes below the level of the track working surface that cannot be reached by the normal Gandy Dancer spike lever. Sunday was a good working day at Branford...the physical work was hard but far more enjoyable than the routine electropneumatic service I expected to do. I can do signals, control systems, compressor overhauls, undercar, carbody, propulsion, radio, EEM...anything asked within the realm of my experience BUT seeing the fruits of our labors has no match. Monday brought no pain...I'm in excellent physical condition.
I'm trying to reprocess a page from a General Electric mobile radio department newsletter, faded brown and crinkled, showing me on top of the Verazzano Bridge with a HT hitting a repeater...the repeater was mine and the HT was a Motorola HT-220. I skipped this piece of paper over for years because it had a GE employee ad for toaster ovens. Experience is...what you can really do with it and properly apply.
CI Peter
Cool..Thanks Selkirk. Let me know when your book comes out.
It seems that when I go searching for information for a specific query such as the previous post about Standards I come up with something else that might be of interest.
The first train of R-27's entered service on November 15,1960. A retired motorman broke a bottle of champagne on the train at the Prospect Park Station. The train carried TA officials, press and interested civilians from Prospect Park via bridge, Nassau Loop and tunnel to Lawrence Street where the first stop was made. After this the train made all stops to Coney Island via the Brighton Line.
A few hours later it entered regular "QT" service between Forest Hills and Coney Island via Tunnel.
The consist was 8027-6,8025-4,8021-0,8028-9.
"QT" BWAY-BRGTN LOCAL via TUNNEL
CONTINENTAL
AVENUE
CONEY
ISLAND
Larry,RedbirdR33
Too bad they couldn't russle up 8022-23.
I wonder how many people were asking, "What's a QT?"
Say Larry, would you know if those "Know Trains at a Glance" signs went up at about the same time on Southern Division station platforms?
If "QT" meant Q via Tunnel, and QB meant Q via Bridge, where did they get some of these other "different letter" routes from like "QJ", or "MJ"? What did all these other mixed double letter routes mean?
QJ was used to denote Brighton-Jamaica; RJ denoted 4th Ave.-Jamaica. MJ worked out nicely; it meant Myrtle-Jay St. However, this marking never appeared on the Q cars running on the el at the time. NX distinguished the short-lived Sea Beach super express from the regular N service.
QJ meant Jamaica/Brighton. Like RJ, which meant 4th Ave/Jamaica. MJ was a confusing identifier, but no train actually carried it.
Chris: The QJ-RJ-and MJ signs were kind of an ad-hoc designation. Q was considered to be for the Brighton Line and R for the Fourth Avenue Line and J for the Jamaica Line. What is interesting about this is that no train ever carried the J desgnation in service before Chrystie Street although both the R-27's and R-32's had signs for both the J and JJ. In fact the J designation was not used until 1973 although JJ was used fro a short time from late November 1967 until the end of June 1969. (Same as the RJ).
MJ was intended to conotate "MYRTLE-JAY" and not Jamaica.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Chris: The QJ-RJ-and MJ signs were kind of an ad-hoc designation. Q was considered to be for the Brighton Line and R for the Fourth Avenue Line and J for the Jamaica Line. What is interesting about this is that no train ever carried the J desgnation in service before Chrystie Street although both the R-27's and R-32's had signs for both the J and JJ. In fact the J designation was not used until 1973 although JJ was used for a short time from late November 1967 until the end of June 1969. (Same as the RJ).
MJ was intended to conotate "MYRTLE-JAY" and not Jamaica.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The "Know Trains at a Glance" was more for the Chrystie Street changes, IIR, which would place them in the 1967 timeframe.
--Mark
The Know Trains at a Glance signs went up around 1964, when the R32s arrived. The original R32 rollsign did not identify the southern portion of the route. It would only say Q Broadway Express or N Broadway Express. Nobody knew at the time what the Q or N was. It was still Brighton, Sea Beach West End...
Thank you for correcting me!
--mark
HEY! Don't forget the (T) Train!
Elias
The Oolong'est line in the system. :)
I NEVER did ;-)
You would have thought people would have gotten used to the letter markings by the time the R-32s arrived, since the R-27s ushered them in. Old habits die hard, I suppose.
The R27 didn't run at all on the Q. I don't know about the N or the T or any of the other lines listed on the sign. Once they were fully delivered, the R32 was used on all of the Bway expresses, so the sign was the only way to identify which line was which. Coney Island was the southern destination on the N & T as well, so you couldn't tell by that either. People living in that part of Brooklyn only knew the names.
There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of an R-27 Q train at Church or Newkirk Ave. Supposedly the R-27/30s covered all weekend Southern Division service once they had arrived in sufficient numbers, so it seems likely that "What's a T/TT? What's an N? What's an RR?" were heard a lot.
Steve,
Now you touched a subject sensitive to me. As a seasoned
"Greenpointer" will still ask, "What in the Blazes is a
Phuckin(G)? "Old habits do die hard", the GG forever and
24/7 on Queens Boulevard. Continental to Church, going my way.
;-) Sparky
Coulda sworn the QB was packed with them back around 1970 or so. No?
Yep -- Post-Chrystie, the R-27/30 was the mainstay of the rush-hour QB, while the other R-27/30s on the Brighton line were used by the QJs (and of course the RR on the B'way local).
They were DOGS ... don't get 'em wet. :)
Post Chrystie, the R27/30s also made up the bulk of the N service.
Actually, the R-32 Brightliners handled a little more service on the N than the 27/30s, right after Chrystie, and the older cars were pretty much all shunted off to the local services by the arrival of the R-42s. In the early 70s, the 27/30s were only allowed to play on the express tracks northbound in the AM rush and southbound during PMs when the QB was in action.
I remember getting an occasional R-27/30 N train when we'd bail out of those BMT standards at Union Square. They zipped along Broadway with the same zeal as the R-32s. That's a fast stretch even now with the R-68s. Of course, the slants aren't exactly slouches either.
The R-32s followed only a couple of years behind the R-27/30s, not much time for people who'd been riding the BMT for years to get used to the new letters.
By 1962, the R-27/30s ran all of the service on the 4th Ave. Local (RR) and Brighton Local (QB/QT) on weekdays. One train set of R-27/30s also ran on the PM rush hour Brighton Bankers Special from Chambers St. to Coney Island via tunnel bearing "Q - Bway Brighton Exp" on its route signs. On weekends, they also ran on most of the other southern division routes, including the Saturday Brighton Express (Q). The only notable exception was the Franklin Shuttle, which had it's IRT Low-Vs replaced by Standards after the R-27s arrived, and ran Triplexes throught to Brighton Beach on Saturdays (weekday Brighton Exp equipment).
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks, as always Ed, for posting your observations of the Brighton in the old days.
What was your immediate reaction when you saw that first R-27 QT train? Was there anything in the papers about new subway cars for the BMT division then?
There had been articles in the papers for a about a year before when the contracts were let, etc. (being a subway fan even then, I read those articles) so I knew that new cars were coming around that time. One surprise that I remember was the IRT-style seating (the R27s were the first BMT/IND cars with all longitudinal seating), and the lack of padding on the seats. I had expected something that looked like the R-16s, and the R-27s filled that bill. Being primarily a BMT rider, I hadn't yet ridden the R-26s on the #6, or I would have known about the pink fiberglass seats. Of course, the really big surprise was the "QT" designation. I was fully expecting the new cars to have the BMT route numbers as did the R-16s at the time.
I do recall a large (nearly full page tabloid size) photo of the "baptism" with a bottle of champagne at Prospect Park station in the next days "Daily News."
-- Ed Sachs
I do recall a large (nearly full page tabloid size) photo of the "baptism" with a bottle of champagne at Prospect Park station in the next days "Daily News."
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: This being a Brooklyn event I'm surprised that they didn't use a bottle of Schaefer beer from the brewery on the shores of the East River in the shadow of the Williamsburg Bridge. I remember that from the Schaefer Award Theatre which used to air once a month on Saturday night in place of the Late Show. This was the Late Show of pre-Letterman Days when they actually showed first class movies. We also had an Early Show and a Late Late Show.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Theme song was "The Syncopated Clock" by Leroy Anderson ...
MP3 - click here to PLAY IT!
Say Larry, would you know if those "Know Trains at a Glance" signs went up at about the same time on Southern Division station platforms?
Steve: Those "Known Trains at a Glance" Signs went up about April 1965 and cost the TA $25,000 for these large metal signs. The rollsigns on the R-32'A and R-32's did not carry BMT route names as the R-27-30-30A's did. They only carried the Manhattan route name and the signs were an attempt to make up for this shortcoming.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. Shoreline has one of those signs in their maintenance shop.
>>>"Shoreline has one of those signs in their maintenance shop."<<<
Yes, we do not wall paper the walls, we cover them with route curtains from various locations.
One of my favored ad-libs, with adult visitors is to point out
the New Orleans routes, which include the "Desire" car line, that
traversed "Bourboun Street" inroute to the "Cemetery". >G<
;-) Sparky
I've seen all those signs in the maintenance shop. There's a bunch of them!
I've seen all those signs in the maintenance shop. There's a bunch of them!
There's a house along Hoyt Street in Brooklyn (south of Atlantic) which has an original R46 (I think) sign in the front window proudly proclaiming "F" (with white circle on Fuschia) and "GG" (with white circle on Kelly Green).
wayne
Wayne,
I was extremely fortunate to have gotten a route curtain from one of the original Rohr Cars on the DC Metro---It has former destinations on the Red, Blue & Orange Lines plus strip maps on the opposite sides that used to show in the cars. On some of the strip maps it still shows stations like Fort Totten being a transfer point for both the Green AND the YELLOW. On the Orange Line strip map it shows the Virginia Square station as Ballston, and the present day Ballston as Glebe Road.
VERY COOL.
Mark
VERY VERY cool! I never saw those in any of the Rohr cars, dating back to my very first Metro trip on November 25, 1978; they showed nothing inside, looked like a mylar destination on the outside.
I have recently won an R42 full-size (NOT the bullets, the whole window size) front end sign at Ebay - includes "J" (black) "K" (blue), "LL" (black), "M" (light blue), "QB" (red) and "S" (white). You are right, they can be beautiful decorations.
wayne
Wayne,
I took a look at it after your last post, a couple of other oddities to it are that it shows Huntington as being a Blue Line destination (which it was as originally planned), and it still shows other stations under old names---such as, Zoological Park (which is now Woodley Park), Nicholson Lane (which is now White Flint) and on one strip map, it shows the Red Line ending at Rockville (which was the case in the original plans).
Mark
I remember riding the R-27s on my way home from school that day. I was coming home from Stuyvesant HS (which at that time was at 15th St. off First Ave.) to Neck Rd. station in Brooklyn. I was on a Brighton Express, which I had boarded at Union Square, and saw the R-27s when we passed them at Cortelyou Rd. Needless to say, I transferred to the local at Newkirk Ave. that day rather than at Kings Highway.
One thing I recall was the missing advertising cards -- apparently they hadn't had the time to put them in prior to sending the train out for its inaugural run.
-- Ed Sachs
I don't understand why the "F" and the Brighton can't run to W.8 Street during the Stillwell reconstruction. I assume its because there are no crossover switches to turn trains back. But how hard would it be to construct some? I doubt it would be prohibitive in cost to just put some switches in. Would it be harder to turn a train at W.8 than it is at Av X? And if not W.8 Street at least Van Sicklen on the "F" where there is a huge senior citizen population in the Warbasse Co-ops and other buildings and Ocean Pkway on the Brighton for the same reason.
What's going to happen next summer when thousands of people go to the Aquarium and other attractions on that end of Coney Island?
There's no need. That station, despite being served (or formerly served) by two lines, had relatively low usage before it was closed. It's only a few blocks from the Stillwell terminal, still served by the W, and for those who can't or don't want to walk, the F shuttle bus and B68 will suffice.
W8 is also being renovated as is Neptune (F).
Aslo the total lack of crew rooms and very large amount of stairs to run up and down to switch sides if you ask me >G<.
>>Also the total lack of crew rooms and very large amount of stairs to run up and down to switch sides if you ask me >G<. <<
How about the pigeon problem ?
Bill "Newkirk"
How about the pigeon problem ?
Pigeon problem? I don't know about that Bill but if people are having trouble getting to the Aquarium it sounds like a "Fish Story" to me.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Hey, if you thought West 8 had a pigeon problem, take a look at Newkirk Av on the Brighton line. I constantly see clumps of crap near the ceilings and now they are now rehabbing my home station :-)
I am not disputing the crew issue, but are there other terminals without crew rooms such as South Ferry or 86 Street on the N and the crews change at Chambers (1) and Kings Highway (N).
According to info I have, the statios (W8 and Neptune ) need other work acuh as lead paint removal and asbestos remediation.
Yeah, I know some other stations have used temporary booth locations such as the J line but I am not the one that decides. They dont ask us. They just do what they want to do.
Not ot nit pick but South Ferry is no longer a terminal.
Right! I took the lierary liberty to avoid getting SOuth Ferry Questions.
There is NO crew change at Chambers St on the 1. the train you take out of VC is the same train you bring back. (just like the 5 to Bowling Green and the 6 to Brooklyn Bridge)
Let me try it this way. You are the crew from VC. You got to Chambers and continue to South Ferry and return at the proper time to Chambers where you dump the train and then the next crew takes over- is that right?
No. If Alex gets on the train at VC, he goes down to South Ferry, goes up to Chambers, and then makes the next interval with the same train back to VC. He never leaves the cab until he returns to VC. I haven't been to South Ferry since 8/20/01 but IIRC, they don't dump there nor do they dump at Chambers.
Correct. The three 'looping' trains do not dump at the their respective south terminii. The train you take out of the Bronx is the same train you bring back.
You have a legitimate question about the subject of running the "F" train to W. 8th St. They could do it if they wanted to and it probably wouldn't be very difficult to install the necessary switch, even if it is on a temporary basis.
#3 West End Jeff
Switches cost about $1 million apiece, not to mention all the structural changes that would be required to support the trackwork. After this project is over, the switch will not be needed, but if were there and it were kept it would have to be maintained whether used or not. Besides, the terminal would still have to be Brighton Beach because there are no terminal facilities at W. 8th Street (unless you guys want to throw MORE money around...).
In short, what's the sense of spending a whole lot of money to temporarily terminate someplace where next-to-nobody wants to go?
David
The booth is also closed ( as is the booth at Neptune on the F) due to station renovation at the same time. TWU also asked the same question to try to keep the booths open and the concerns are over lead paint and asbestos.
I agree that there's no need for trains to run through to W8.
But I still don't understand the "terminal facility" argument. Someone else pointed out that 86th Street and South Ferry are terminals as far as passengers are concerned, but to the crews the terminals are at the Kings Highway and Chambers.
Incidentally, why are there terminal facilities at Kings Highway at all? If they were built so the N could terminate at 86th, why weren't they built at 86th? Was Kings Highway itself ever an actual terminal (as shown on the map)?
And what happened to the terminal facilities at Queensbridge? Two weeks ago, when the Q was extended there, the crew change was at 57th SB.
Kings Highway N had extra space at the part-time end which could be used with minor wall construction.
The crew room - well, actually dungeon is more descriptive - was taken over by various infrastructure departments about two weeks before the Queensbridge shuttle went away.
Two weeks before? That's rude.
Thanks guys for the positive attention. I do truly appreciate it. Heartfelt, for my crew and myself. CI pick is once again delayed...I'll stick it out because of the extra responsibility thrown my way. I'm looking into everything: RCI opened up again but I'd lose out for seniority, still standing for Signal Maintainer for the same reason, searching for contacts in ATS Div A and may resubmit to EEM via Jay Street (they sent me form for Signal Maintainer.) Unca Steve is correct big time...repeat what you have and the results will be the same. The work is excellent and showing up tomorrow is importantant to all. CI Peter
Now that Bloomberg has put a hiring freeze on city agencies, does that include the MTA also? And how long can we expect this to last?
Until there's an economy. That'll be either January 20, 2005 or if the American people remain stupid, January 20, 2009 ...
the MTA is a state agency - therefore not controled by bloomberg - however the MTA has a hiring freeze imposed on it from last oct. by the gov. - it is my understanding that this freeze should be lifted soon - however i do not know for certain
Mike
Word I hear up here in Smallbany is it'll be back with a vengeance. :(
Does this mean if we take the open competitive T/O Exam next spring, we can expect to wait even longer until we are contacted about possibly going through training? -Nick
That depends. My friend is on the list for C/R, and called the TA today to see when he can expect to be called. They told him that they are going to see how many people retire over the next few months. That will determine how many new employees they need.
Interesting, we'll see what happens. -Nick
MIKEY! U sure did a good job on firing up everyones (those who struggling to put food on the table) angers.
It isn't Mikey's fault - State law prohibits NYC from going into a deficit. One might ask George Paturkey why he gave away New York City's money to corporations that didn't need the money but were willing to take it out of your pockets in exchange for political favors. NYC is a $Billion and a half in the hole, upstate is over $4 billion in the hole. The money was spent on baseball stadiums for Senator Joey, train stations (TWO!) for Senator Joey and for a lot of companies that took the money and ran.
And amazingly, the man who screwed the city, George Pataki, is more popular than ever for doing it. :(
And, you have former mayor Guilliani (if I spelled it correctly) support his next election campainge.
Bloomie does not have jurisdiction over the TA.
i doubt that his freeze effects MTA. because MTA is NOT a city Agency.
Correct, the freeze only applies to CITY AGENCY,the real term is MAYORAL AGENCY, the TA isn't one so the freeze does not cover it.
Just so's you guys know - Paturkey, once reupped, DOES plan not only a freeze, but "reduction in workforce" ... anyone who was around when he first came in after Padre Cuomo might remember how that worked out, same thing again, same plan resurrected. But yes, plans are already put together to cut MTA and other state agencies by about 10% "through attrition and other means."
(yes, plans are already put together to cut MTA and other state agencies by about 10% "through attrition and other means." )
However, most of the state budget deficit will probably be eliminated by reducing aid to, and shifting costs to, local governments. Bloomberg hasn't even factored this into his plans, and you can bet that NYC will be target number one. I'd expect, for example, a $2 billion cut in school aid to NYC (but not much to other places). My guess is -- 40,000 job cuts/layoffs, including 10,000 teachers, plus a 25 percent property tax increase.
There will be layoffs, no doubt in my mind. Please remember for most of the rank and file city workers their contract and the no layoff clause expired June 30, 2002.
(There will be layoffs, no doubt in my mind. Please remember for most of the rank and file city workers their contract and the no layoff clause expired June 30, 2002.)
Also remember that unions love layoffs. The people who are laid off don't get to vote in union elections, and the public employee union members live in the suburbs and are not affected by the associated service declines. That's why "shared sacrifice" won't fly. It unions were real unions, there wouldn't be four pension tiers.
Glad that in my new job I don't have to pay dues, and that some of the people I paid dues to involuntarily in DC37 ended up in jail.
"Reduction in aid" was how they got through THIS year's deficit (as well as abolishing the "rainy day fund" by blowing the ENTIRE wad on the Joe Bruno Baseball Stadium, the Joe Bruno Amtrak Station, and the John SWEENEY Amtrak station and billions in other wasteful election pork) ... these will be NEW cuts.
Of course, anyone who follows New York politics knows also that the budget will never happen on time, that's how we got here in the FIRST place. Add a crappy economy and Paturkey handing away the store when it was already out of stock, and we're in for a WORLD of hurt. But let's not discuss this until AFTER the election. If folks found out how bad things really ARE, Golisano would be governor.
(But let's not discuss this until AFTER the election. If folks found out how bad things really ARE, Golisano would be governor.)
That's who I'm voting for. At least he's honest and no one owns him.
I've MET Golisano, Nancy almost made the mistake of WORKING for Golisano, and H Carl McCall is one of my neighbors, so I *know* him as well. Guess who I'm voting for without any reservations?
Golisano might have a chance if he'd put down the crack pipe every now and then. H Carl can count the treasury and come up with the same number twice. Alas, we're going to get Paturkey for Fangsgiving ... why am I so sure? He's emptied the treasury with gifts for all special interests ... and THEY won't put down the crack pipe either.
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
It's still not too late to reconsider H Carl, but then New York's voters have proven repeatedly that they'll screw up now, and whine later. :(
(It's still not too late to reconsider H Carl, but then New York's voters have proven repeatedly that they'll screw up now, and whine later.)
H. Carl pushed through a big pension increase for public employee retirees, with some in Tier I who fleeced and fled the state 20 years ago getting 50 percent increases. He said it would all be "free," since the rising stock market would pay for it all.
Was he stupid about stock prices? No, just greedy. At the same time, he was releasing reports warning that Pataki and Giulani's budgets were increasingly dependent on an unsustainable bubble on Wall Street. So he way lying about the free part to cater to an interest group.
More recently hired public employees, and those they provide services to, will now be sacrificed to pay for rising pension payments to those cashing in and moving out.
I recommend the "Essays" section of the Independence Party website at www.ipny.org. It'll tell you what you need to know. If it were between Pataki and McCall, I'd hold my nose and vote for McCall. But in this state, if you have an opportunity not to vote for the bastards or the other bastards, you should take it.
I remember that scam WELL ... BECAUSE of my priors with the Transit Authority, I got the "resettlement" myself, having come in as a Tier III in 1985, but having done some Tier 1 in the 70's. THAT TOO was a Paturkey "largesse from the public treasury" to get PEF and AFSCME to support him LAST time ... McCall acquiesced to it ONLY after Paturkey and Bruno rammed that bill through the legislature, leaving H Carl to implement it. I know the scam, I was there, we covered the whole thing on NY-SCAN.
Nice political prattle, but it was Paturkey and Bruno that pulled that one ... otherwise I'd agree with you, but watch out - Golisano has tremendous difficulties with truth, not that Paturkey would recognize it if it hit him on the head with a salmon. The Libertarian party had a bit more of a grasp on reality than IPNY sad to say. But any way you slice the salami, it's a Papoon balloon we got here ...
Hope ya don't mind, I still think we'd be a hell of a lot better off with H Carl ... but that ain't gonna happen ...
Kev, I just missed running into H Carl yesterday on my lunch hour. He was passing through Downtown Brooklyn on his way to a groundbreaking at the Weeksville Houses in Bed-Stuy...
He's a GREAT guy, very passionate and very well versed. Alas, I think living out here in the sticks mellowed him a bit too much. If you HAD run into him though, he would have gladly taken you up on a personal tour of the Frankie. He LOVES trains. :)
GREAT! I could've bent his ear regarding new funding for the Frankie so we could get double-tracking all the way up to Franklin/Fulton Terminal...:)
(but watch out - Golisano has tremendous difficulties with truth)
He hired one of those political consultants, who has come up some untrue facts (that's what those guys do). I think those guys are making Golisano seem like an idiot, which he is not. You can't be a reform candidate and make up numbers, especially when there are so many TRUE numbers available to use against the SOBs. Then again, it seems that the way to win in politics is to get the idiot vote.
Agreed ... well, looks like Paturkey for Thanksgiving. :(
Sounds like Argentina.
Sadly, New York State as well ... whodathunk the repubs would be tax and spenders? Only in Noo Yawk.
In DC, too. They just spend it on different things and let their grandchildren pay for it.
Nah, republicans EAT their young, ergo no grandchildren. That's why they're for the rights of the unborn. Once you're born, you're on your own. :)
On Tuesday approx. 7:20pm a person decided to take a swan dive in front of an incomming train. Service was bussed between Back Bay station and Wellington Station untill around 9:000pm. After they investigated and cleaned up the affected area. No ID of the person was released as of yet. Its not fair to the T/O' s who have to dael with the psycological trauma after the person is gone and bured for the rest of their life. Sometimes in cases I know where the T/O is so bad that thay cannot get behind the contoler again. Mane they should have The Samaritens phone # posted in subways they are on the Tobin Bridge for thoes people who want to jump off. What do you think?
Suicide just isn't a cool thing, period. But unfortunatly there are so many cases where people are hurting so much, that they believe ending their life is the only way out. The situation is just unfortunate, for the victim, their families, and yes, the T/O. -Nick
Transit agencies in general are willing to do almost anything to help those who are affected by such an incident, including getting them another position in the agency.
Due to the 2012 olympics maybe in nyc, the mta and state of new york, nycdot, and port authority of ny&nj may try new subway configurations
such as moving tunnels, building entirely new lines staten island-brooklyn rail connection, new queens subway lines terminating at jfk with six tracks, two local, two express, two airport non-stop.
2-atlantic ave superhub, all brooklyn lines pass through in tracks and platforms parallel to each other at same level (based on jamaica on lirr)
4-manhattan brige config:yellow=broadway orange=6th ave
yellow
q-brighton local-bridge-broadway express-astoria
w=terminated
r-brooklyn local-tunnel-broadway local-71st ave
d-brighton local-via tunnel-broadway to 34th, cpw via new 34th street exchange tunnel-bronx
orange
b-west end-bridge-6th express-astoria
brighton express-tunnel-via nassau-parsons blvd, queens
n-sea beach local-bridge-6th ave-local in bronx
c=new extension using franklin ave shuttle trackage to brighton express
undesignated letter-kings plaza line-2nd ave subway-jfk via local,express,and nonstop jfk express using six track line in queens
>>> Due to the 2012 olympics maybe in nyc, the mta and state of new york, nycdot, and port authority of ny&nj may try new subway configurations such as moving tunnels, building entirely new lines staten island-brooklyn rail connection, new queens subway lines terminating at jfk with six tracks, two local, two express, two airport non-stop. <<<
Don't Bogart that joint, bro. It must be some of that really strong Acapulco Gold. :-)
Tom
Lets face it, the only thing(s) getting built to support a NYC Olympics bid is sports infrastructure. Aside from extensions of the 7 and/or L to connect to any new west-side stadiums, they're not going to be building any new rail lines.
"Aside from extensions of the 7 and/or L to connect to any new west-side stadiums, they're not going to be building any new rail lines. "
The proposed 7 extension is Javits-related, not Olympics-related. Getting the Olympics is just extra gravy on the motivation cake. And as far as I know, an L extension is just Subtalk fantasy right now, nothing more.
And as far as I know, an L extension is just Subtalk fantasy right now, nothing more.
I think so too. We've talked about it so much, that it almost sounds like a real plan. Has anyone ever really heard about this from some real official source, outside of SubTalk?
"Has anyone ever really heard about this from some real official source, outside of SubTalk?"
There was some crazy press release from someone in NJ about a light rail (?) line crossing the Hudson at Hoboken and connecting to the subways. Subtalkers made the inference that this would require an L extension, or that maybe even the L itself would run to Hoboken.
The list of reasons this is likely to be incredibly low on NYCT's priority list is practically endless.
OTHER than the money is never there, can either of the TA divisions cross the Hudson? What (in order of possibility -- consider this seriously!) would the real political obstacles be to the "L" crossing the state line?
Why would they be different than when Metro-North crosses the state line?
This may be another reason for the proposed reorganization of the
MTA agencies. The New York City Transit Authority is specifically
limited to operating within the City of New York. That's why
the Dyre Avenue line stops where it does, e.g. As a state agency,
the MTA could enter into agreements with other states.
That's a good point.
SEPTA runs its services under different divisions - they are not separate agencies. The Market-Frankford Line, and several trolley and bus services run between Philadelphia and other municipalities (the MFL's western terminal is in Upper Darby Township).
That's why the Dyre Avenue line stops where it does
On a similar note, mentioning the Dyre Ave line; does any of the NYW&B ROW north of the Dyre station still exist? Any evidence of it yet, if it does not exist? If it does still exist, how far does it still go?
Te last time I stood on the platform at Dyre, the ROW kept going. It bears to the right as it enters Westchester. I don't think the structure itself went too much further. I think I saw a website where one can see where the ROW went. But there isn't too much of a structure left. A path but nothing over it.
The tracks which continue are used for storage and each hold 1-2 trains.
I thought so.
Why don't you check out the information available right here on this site?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is either:
1.a path of tree for no reason
2. looks like a dryed up river
3. someones backyard.
I figured that, but I was wondering if the ROW was "intact", meaning still owned by the state or whatever(I obviously know there are no tracks there anymore) . Or if it was sold off, and they have built houses/buildings on it like some other ROW's in the region.
There are structures on some portions of the line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And at at least two places (Heathcote and downtown New Rochelle) the ROW is now a bypass road.
Other locations, I think it's been built over. Probably the best way to determine the ROW is to look at a map of Wetschester.
Definintely there are some buildings. For example a relatively new condo in Wykagyl in New Rochelle.
-----
The New York City Transit Authority is specifically
limited to operating within the City of New York
-----
Not really, if you count the buses, the Q5, Q85, and Bx16 leave NYC limits (there are some more Queens buses that somewhat leave NYC as well) so NYCT is not always limited to NYC.
MTA had planned to extend the city Q79 bus beyond city limits to the Floral Park station. The plan was cancelled after vigorous opposition by officials in Floral Park, but it was noted that MTA did not need permission from Nassau County or the affected township or village to do so. It complied with the village's request to avoid causing bad blood.
Doesn't a Queens bus already go into Floral Park?
Since the project would have to be authorized by the same people who have the authority to expand the TA's legal operating area, the legal restrictions are not a practical problem.
If you can come up with the money, the rest is easy.
In any case, the proposal/pipedream is for NJT or some other NJ entity to tunnel under the Hudson to a terminus at the NY waterfront and for the TA to extend the L two blocks from its current terminal to meet the new service. No one-seat ride.
None, just classify it as a railroad line. Like NJ Transit. OR classsify it as a PATH like line.
I just mentioned it as one of two east-west lines that might be utilized to provide access to any new development on the west side. I don't see the Javits Center, which has been around for years, actually getting the #7 extension built. It'll take the PR campaign of the Olympics to do that. Until they shovel some dirt, it's all fantasy.
I don't see the Javits Center, which has been around for years, actually getting the #7 extension built.
A major expansion of the Javits Center might be enough to get the 7 line expanded, although it's a real long shot. As large as it may seem, the Javits Center is too small to attract the mega-conventions that are becoming more and more important these days. New York no longer is able to compete with other cities for these lucative events. If the city gets its act together and vastly increases the Center's available space, which is also not particularly likely anytime soon, the increased demand for transit services just might be too hard to ignore. Extending the 7 would be the most logical solution. Again, though, I'm talking about a very unlikely series of events.
"As large as it may seem, the Javits Center is too small to attract the mega-conventions that are becoming more and more important these days."
Not only is it too small, the cost of doing business is too high. The corrpution may be gone, but it still costs far more to truck massive displays to Javits and unload them there, than to do the same at Las Vegas or other big convention locations.
... it still costs far more to truck massive displays to Javits and unload them there, than to do the same at Las Vegas or other big convention locations.
All they need is a little spur from the railyard across the street.
Extending the 7 would be the most logical solution.
Actually, building a platform on the north end of the West Side yards (adjoining the south side of 34th St) is all that is needed. They could operate a shuttle between little used track 21 on the LIRR at Penn Sta to this new platform.
They could increase the cost of the project by building a pedestrian tunnel under 34th St complete with moving sidewalk to provide an all-weather entrance to Javits.
I suggested that shuttle using LIRR cars a long time ago.
--Mark
"I suggested that shuttle using LIRR cars a long time ago. "
Did you mail it to MTA to gauge their reaction to it?
Unfortunately, no, I never did. It was just a response to a post here.
--Mark
Little used??????
I wasn't aware that Penn Station had so much excess capacity.
I respectfully disagree. I think in the long run Javits (and surrounding businesses are far more important, politically, than an Olympic bid. If NY gets the Olympics - great; but if not, it really won't make any difference, and will not be the reason the extension isn't built.
I think in the long run Javits (and surrounding businesses are far more important, politically, than an Olympic bid. If NY gets the Olympics - great; but if not, it really won't make any difference, and will not be the reason the extension isn't built.
As noted elsewhere in this thread, the Javits Center is declining in importance because it's too small and too expensive. It won't be enough to spur development of the 7 train extension absent a massive expansion (and de-unionization, which is politically impossible in New York).
Let's all get back to reality!
The City of NY, the States of New York and New Jersey and the Federal Government are currently running major Budget Deficits. Where is the Money to fund all of these Sub-Talk pipe-dreams supposed to come from? From what I read the Cops and Firemen can't get a decent raise and the City may be forced to increase property taxes by at least 25% in order to run Government in 2003!
All of the Pipe-Dreams or Aculpulco Gold dreams, as some poster referred to the Restructuring projects, are interesting and amusing to read. There is no doubt that major improvements in service are really needed in order to have the Subways running at optimum service. However, the City, State and Federal Gov't don't have the funds...period.
What would be more realistic and beneficial to public transportation in the City of New York would be to fix and repair the existing system before any proposal be made to expand or extend the current subway system.
One that has been noted is the "Bergen Interlocking Repair" - This could be repaired and express service initiated to relieve congestion. The infrastructure exists...but just lays in waste!
Another "Down-to Earth" suggestion ....Would be Community involvement and interest by Fraternal organizations offering to lend a hand in cleaning and maintaing the Subway Stations that everyone uses.
We currently have different "Civic Groups" with their "Adopt a Highway" help in keeping our roads litter free. Too bad that we don't have the initiative to propose the same to subway stations in our communities.
Another suggestion is a commendable concept used in many other states for the benefit of all citizens. In other states that I have visited, People who have been Incarcerated for Non-Violent crimes are given the opportunity to repay society. These "inmates" are assigned tasks to clean up highways, cut overgrown or weeds near railroad lines and also paint over grafitti stewn walls. There are no "Color TV's" or "Weight Rooms" to get in shape for their return to the outside world. These inmates are given the opportunity to "Work Off" their sentences by paying back society. Too bad such a system does not exist in NYC. From what I have read, prison populations are increasing at an alarming rate, and the infrastructue of NYC always needs a "Face Lift" while at the same time an abudence of idle labor watches color tv, plays cards and learns "new crimes" at tax-payer expense. I know the bleeding heart liberals would fight such a change in priorities and opposition would come from the legal community but it is just a "Pipe-Dream" I had while listening to the bag pipes playin the other day.
Just my humble views.
>>> I know the bleeding heart liberals would fight such a change in priorities and opposition would come from the legal community <<<
You have the wrong opposition. It would be organized labor screaming about losing jobs to unpaid labor.
Tom
Let's see... something should be done to improve the subway for the Games. Our current system is one of the best in the world. However, to handle thousands upon thousands of extra riders (albeit, only for two weeks) would make getting around Manhattan (and even the outer boroughs) a living hell. So, if NYC gets the Games (and we would not know until 2005), here are the changes that need to be addressed:
1) Get WTC back in order. I understand that deciding what to erect on the 16 acres should be carefully thought out as the tragedy affected us all. However, we can leave a big hole in the heart of downtown (this isn't the Big Dig from Beantown). So, erect the new PATH station (we need this badly). Connect the new station to the 1,9 Cortlandt Station; the E World Trade Center Station; the N,R Cortlandt Station; and the 2,3,4,5,A,C,J,M,Z Fulton St Station. Build a beautiful concourse and anything tied into the new complex w/ memorial.
2) Build the 2nd Ave line. If they think that people commuting to and from Yankee Stadium or anywhere along the Lex line during the Olympics would not be a system overload, then these are people who have never been on a train on that line before. Build it to connect to LaGuardia and then to the new JFK Train terminal at Jamaica LIRR Station. Whatever they decide, just build it.
3) Improve/extend the following lines (if needed):
IRT 1,9: Build Cortlandt St station and revamp the South Ferry terminal to allow quick turnarounds (like remove the loop). No additional stations to be built.
IRT 2: Extend this line to Kings Plaza (although this may not be necessary for the Games, but it'll improve access to this area).
IRT 3: No improvements/extensions needed (thought of an extension to JFK, but don't think it's feasible).
IRT 4,5,6: By building the 2nd Ave line, this would improve the system. No extensions needed.
IRT 7: I am slightly against the building of a West Side stadium. If it is built, than extend the 7 (if feasible) west to 11th Ave and then south to 32nd St (w/ stops at 42nd/11th Ave, Javits Center (make at 36th St), and then at 32nd St. As for the Queens side, tempting to extend to the Whitestone region... but not sure if residents of the area would want that.
IND A,C: Longest line in system. No extensions/improvements needed.
IND B: Once the Manny B fix is completed, line should be from Bedford Park to Coney Island via 6 Ave and bridge. Local in Bronx and Manhattan, express in Brooklyn (from the bridge to 36 St) and then local to CI.
IND D: Again, once Manny B is completed, line would return to 205 St/Coney Island route with a twist: Weekday express in Brooklyn, local nights and weekends.
IND E: Although the line needs extensions in Queens, it's not needed for the Games.
IND F: Hmmm... leave as is. Wait! Run trains express in Brooklyn (from Church St to Jay St), but Brooklyn residents won't want that.
IND G: This may sound cooky... extend G past Court Square along a new shared (with N) subway under 31 St (since it doesn't run along Queens Blvd during the week). Once it reaches Ditmars Blvd, turn east and go to LaGuardia. Service would be Church St to LaGuardia, local, all times (with 8 60' cars, similar to the L).
BMT J/Z: Fix up the line between Fulton St and Delancy St. Make it two tracks only. Otherwise, no changes/extensions.
BMT L: Extend line to new shopping mall along the Belt Parkway (maybe a nice park and ride) and extend line past 8th Ave in Manhattan to 11th Ave (station), turn north and go to 32nd St (with stops at 23rd and 32nd Sts).
BMT M: Remove line from the West End line and put back to the Brighton Line, running local 6am to midnight weekdays (Metropolitan Ave/Brighton Beach). Other times, service to Chambers on weekend and to Myrtle at night.
BMT N: Extend along with L along new subway under 31 St in Queens to LaGuardia. And, of course, bring it back to Coney Island when construction is over.
BMT Q: Keep it running as is. This way, two weekday express services available on Brighton: D to 6 Av and Q to Broadway.
BMT R: Keep as is. Tempting to connect to Staten Island, but too complicated.
Shuttles: All S lines remain the same.
IND V: Leave as is.
IND W: Express in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Stops in Brooklyn would be Coney Island, Bay Parkway, 62nd St, 9th Ave, 36th St and Pacific St. Across Manny B (Broadway side -- thus you have 4 lines going cross --B,D on 6th Ave side; Q,W on Broadway side-- and even distribution of weight) up Broadway express to 57th St/7th Ave.
Thus, Manhattan would have:
11th Ave: L from south and 7 from North
8th Ave: A express, C & E local
7th Ave: 1/9 local, 2 & 3 express
Broadway: N & R local, Q & W express
6th Ave: F & V local, B & D express
Lexington/Park Aves: 4 & 5 express, 6 local
2nd Ave: One local, one express
That should improve service for us... and help us move people around for the Games in 2K12.
Good luck to us all, and let's hope it doesn't become a mess.
Extend the L train to Hoboken via and 11th ave station, extend the HBLRT over the Bayonne bridge to Staten Island (there's room for it without removing traffic lanes, although that's for another thread).
Run the HBLRT from Staten Island over the Bayonne bridge, through the Bergen Arches to the Meadowlands Sports complex.
Running the HBLRT over the Bayonne Bridge may not be pheasible due to the drastic incline on each side of the bridge.
As for extension to the Meadowlands, that's already in the plans. However, the Nets and Devils would be playing in Newark by the time the extension to the "Swamp" is completed.
Maybe make it into an El on both sides ;-)
If the money was available, I think almost all your ideas are reasonable. If you make the F go express in Brooklyn though, you would need to extend the V from 2nd Ave to Church, so the local stations would not just be served by the G, and they won't loose their direct Manhattan access. (The shouldn't have any reason to complain then for loss of F service - actually the express stations would be getting double the service).
I like your G/N combined extension to LaGuardia, however I have what may seem like a more kooky idea for the G line, if you think that is kooky.
I don't know about capacity on the 7 line, but if a few trains could be slipped in:
The G has the problem of being a "non Manhattan" line. Since the G is almost completely banished from the Queens line anyway, how about making it a complete severing (at least operationally). Convert the G line to IRT sized cars (this would only involve making the platforms a bit wider), and connect it to the 7 line at Vernon-Jackson. Call it "11" (I think there may even be a purple "11" on the rollsigns). It could run between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Times Square. A second line, let's say "8", would run with it between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court Square, replacing the basic route of the current G.
Far fetched and a bit cooky, yes, but would make almost all of the current G line stations (except Van Alst and Court Square) Manhattan bound stations. The only drawback I see is that the Bergen Street - Hoyt-Schermerhorn track connection would become non-revenue only (as only IRT sized cars could then go through it), so you would loose the Culver/Park Slope/Carroll Gardens transfer to the Crosstown line. Would the benefits of the G line stations becoming Manhattan stations outweigh that negative - that is the question.
its more to it than that.thats a drastic system change,that for the better part i believe the T.A. would not agree upon.
Just reported on the news, New York was chosen as the US city in the bid for the Olympics!! Now we just have to beat out other cities around the world!
I wonder what the other bids. I don't think NY had the best US bid and doubt it will have the best world bid. One problem: transportation. I really don't think it will be solved as easily as some people thing before 2012.
>>> One problem: transportation. I really don't think it will be solved as easily as some people thing before 2012. <<<
Nonsense, if L.A. could do it in 1984 with its poor transportation infrastructure (and it was done quite well), New York should be able to rise to the occasion with lasting benefits to the city.
Tom
The final decision will be made by the International committee in 2005. Enough time to get a good bid together?
One problem: transportation. I really don't think it will be solved as easily as some people thing before 2012.
Nonsense, if L.A. could do it in 1984 with its poor transportation infrastructure (and it was done quite well), New York should be able to rise to the occasion with lasting benefits to the city.
Except that Los Angeles is a place where things can get done. In New York, NOTHING ever gets done (except expanding Medicaid, of course).
Actually, things get done in New York when the right people want them to get done -- witness the MTA's incredibly efficent rebuilding of the 1/9 line through the WTC site to serve South Ferry passengers. Staten Island usually votes Republican, so in this case it was in Pataki's interest to have the MTA complete the project before Election Day and the result was something acutally got done ahead of time and under budget.
There certainly will be some looming NIMBY battles on the Olympic plans over the next three years, and even after that if New York wins the bid. But if the right politicians, business leaders and union heads feel it's in their best interest to get the projects done before 2012, including the Flushing Line extension to the West Side, they will get done (even if they had to transfer money over from the Second Ave. subway project to do so).
Actually, things get done in New York when the right people want them to get done -- witness the MTA's incredibly efficent rebuilding of the 1/9 line through the WTC site to serve South Ferry passengers. Staten Island usually votes Republican, so in this case it was in Pataki's interest to have the MTA complete the project before Election Day and the result was something acutally got done ahead of time and under budget.
But what about the Second Avenue Subway? The Upper East Siders who desparately want and need the line have a great deal of economic and political influence, yet their wishes have been ignored for decades.
Upper middle class people do use the subway, but the uber movers and shakers the ones who stand to benefit the most either politically or economically do not, and unfortunately, they're the ones who have the essential ability to cut through the red tape that locks almost every project in New York City into an unmovable stasis.
The West Side Olympic development project would create benefits for the politician(s) who get the job done on time and are in office when the Olympics are held; the construction companies and unions who would be involved in any such project; and the real estate owners/developers who would build projects in connection with the development of the area that would last past 2012.
The fact that at this point there's no subway line within a third of a mile of the Javits Center and proposed stadium site might is one of the things that makes that area both less desireable for any commercial development and for any Olympic plans, since it's a sure thing that vehicular traffic would be banned from going anywhere near the stadium. So a subway extension becomes a critical part of both the city's presentation to the IOC and the developers' plans post-2012. Combine that with your average pol's desire to take bows for all this and possibly be propelled to higher office, and you get key backing for the project. The people on the east side who would be helped by a Second Ave. subway are far greater than the number that would benefit from a 7 extension, and they are not powerless, but they're not as powerful as those pushing the west side plan.
"One problem: transportation."
New York has a wonderful transportation infrastructure with huge amounts of excess capacity at all times except rush hour. Supplement with buses and ferries, and NY will have fewer problems than most cities. Certainly far less than SF would have had, and quite competitive with foreign countries.
THE privatization of the subway would definetly bring great benefits
How do you figure?
Instead of a public agency where at least the stated mission is to serve the public, you'll have a corporation whose sole purpose is to make profit and there will be no competition to make prices and service fare.
Just think of the phone company or cable company the next time you feel that subway privatization is a good idea.
Like in England?
The privatization of the railways in England was done in a particularly crazy way involving splitting the railway up into dozens of different companies, who spend lots of expensive managerial time arguing with each other about who pays for what. The reason for this was, I think, that the then government wanted to avoid the accusation that they were creating a privately-owned publicly-subsidized monopoly - they wanted to say that they were introducing competition. The folly of the way things were done has been demonstrated again this week. Following severe gales last Sunday which caused some damage to the railway system, most of this week train services have been seriously disrupted. I feel sure that a unified management would have been able to organize the necessary repair work much more quickly and get the services running properly again sooner. The Hatfield crash resulted from deferred maintenance of a high-speed line by Railtrack whose maintenance programme was way behind schedule, partly because public funds put into Railtrack for track improvements were diverted into dividend payments to shareholders. The Potters Bar crash was probably caused by negligence by a private track-maintenance sub-contractor; in the old days the maintenance men would have been British Rail employees.
The privatization of the London Underground is still a hot political issue in the UK. The present government is pushing it through, mainly because they don't want to have to find the capital sums necessary for modernization from public sources. Those against it say that the net result will be public money going into private profits - the owners getting a guaranteed return even though the tube is a loss-making entity. Public opinion in London is solidly against it, but Mayor Ken Livingstone and his (ex-NYC) transport supremo Bob Kiely have lost their legal actions against the government trying to stop it.
It is surely absurd to take an inherently loss-making public service and say it is private enterprise, when the "profits" distributed to shareholders are simply taken from the public purse.
The privatization of the railways in England was done in a particularly crazy way involving splitting the railway up into dozens of different companies
The craziness in it is not the number of companies - okay, it was a bit dumb separating freight from track from passengers (we can blame the EU for that one), but there are some companies which serve a well defined area - for example all trains out of Marylebone are run by Chiltern, (almost?) all trains out of St Pancras' are run by Midland. The only franchises which don't make a lot of sense are Central Trains and Arriva (aka N'arrive pas) Northern.
The privatization of the London Underground is still a hot political issue in the UK
One possible benefit could be that, if done correctly, all Amersham trains, mainline and underground could end up under one operator, thus removing the weakness that has been present since the GCR was built - track sharing on the approach to London.
It is surely absurd to take an inherently loss-making public service and say it is private enterprise, when the "profits" distributed to shareholders are simply taken from the public purse.
You are absolutely right there, Fytton, but anything is better than having LT foul up the approaches to London and Central Trains foul up the approaches to both main Birmingham stations and Leicester (London Rd). Maybe we had the best set-up with the Western, London-Midland regions etc...
Incidentally, I bet you're not impressed at this Midland Mainline plan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2385225.stm
I don't know quite what this suggestion of a split at Leicester is, or indeed how on earth they're going to do Leicester (London Rd) to Manchester (Piccadilly), as they haven't reinstated Matlock-Buxton yet, but if it's not via Beeston, it sounds terribly like they want to reverse out of Leicester and run via Nuneaton TV, Lichfield TV etc...
We *had* private subway lions, but the owners were not allowed to set an honest fare, and so went bankrupt. Of course what the owner thinks is an honest fare, and what the turnstyle-feeders think is an honest fare are probably as far apart as either end of the subway line.
I think that there are some services that need to be provided by the government (meaning the local-most entity that can effectively manage the service.) Highways are an example: there are still pravately owned highways and bridges in this country, whose owners collect a toll for their passage, but these are disapearing.
I think that big federal highway projects should disapear.
I think that local, state, or regional consortiums or authorities should build, maintain and operate roads and what ever other transportation assets they may require.
I think the Federal Government should stop collecting highway and fuel taxes.
I think that these local consortiums or authorities should collect and use these taxes.
Most of all... I think they should GET-IT-DONE!
Elias
We *had* private subway lions, but the owners were not allowed to set an honest fare, and so went bankrupt. Of course what the owner thinks is an honest fare, and what the turnstyle-feeders think is an honest fare are probably as far apart as either end of the subway line.
The BMT Corporation explained the issue as follows in 1923:
"In order to make the facts simple and understandable, I have divided the community into three classes of people: The Car Rider, the Taxpayer, the Investor.
The car rider wants rapid and convenient service whenever he needs to go from one place to another. He is not interested in the economics of transportation. He does not concern himself with the costs of service. He does not care whether it costs five or fifty cents to carry him so long as he does not have to pay more than a nickel. He considers that the community or the company has an obligation to transport him with that maximum of comfort and convenience and that minimum of expense which he considers ideal. He is very apt to complain and resent any infringement upon the standard which he has set up. But the car rider today should receive sympathy and not criticism.
The car rider may or may not be an investor or a taxpayer, and so long as he does not come within the last two classes he comes within the description which I have given. He pays five cents for a ride.
The taxpayer falls within the second group. This is the group which is the backbone of the city. The taxpayers provide the money for our city, state and national governments. They provided large sums of money for subways. The taxpayer may or may not be an investor, he may or may not be a car rider. As he must pay taxes, either directly to the city or indirectly in rent or the cost of living, he is interested in paying only those taxes which in justice and fairness lie should pay. The taxpayer, if he rides in the subways, pays five cents directly but an additional fare indirectly by his taxes because the money he has invested, through the city in subways, has not earned interest.
The investor may belong to either of the preceding groups, or he may not. He may be an individual or a life insurance company or a savings bank. The company which insures you or the bank where you keep your money may be an investor. The investor is interested primarily in the security of his investment. He has placed a certain sum of money at the disposal of the company and he expects that the company will administer its affairs so that lie will get a return on that investment. He expects the community to treat the company fairly so that the company will be enabled to earn a return on that investment."
- Gerhard Dahl, Chairman - Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corp, 1923
That era is over in US, they are currently in process of making the same mistake in Europe.
Arti
c=new extension using franklin ave shuttle trackage to brighton express
IINM, the C train is in a Subway at Franklin Avenue. The Shuttle is on an El - are you really suggesting building huge ramps and a portal?!?
Guess they never heard of the D train, which ran in league with the C until the bridge closed and *was* the Brighton Express ... how quickly they've forgotten. Ach Aye ... I forgot, we've got ourselves a SHRUB. Damned Windsors, our own Shrub, British descendent of royalty! Polluting BOTH sides of the puddle. If Americans had a grip, they'd realize that the Supreme Court in 2000 sold America back to the Brits and they were too smart to TAKE us back. Oh the irony! Where's Terry Gilliam when we require him? :)
But yeah, that'd be a genuine treat seeing the C train rise out of the depths of Fulton street onto the El. Shoulda left the damned Fulton street El alone ... had they done so, out own BMT man would have NEVER left the line! Looks like we've got ourselves a case of subDUCKtion - subtalkers smoking quack ...
LOL Thats the US deffense for a year. With all the corruption in everything this will never happen. But you can always hope.
I don't know if this issues ever been discussed B4, does anyone ever thought of TA does such thing, assigned all IRT fleets to IND, BMT lines and IND BMT Fleets assigned to IRT lines. I'm sure wasn't thought of that B4 until now. Forgive me if this sound quite weirdo.
For example
R32 on the 5
Redbirds on the V J M L Z E.
Slants on the 3
R142 on the B
R62A on the A D C
BMT/IND cars cannot run on IRT lines because they are too wide. IRT cars can run on BMT/IND lines (and do on transfer moves) but have large gaps between the car bodies and the platform.
OOOkay we have can and can't so far.
Huh?
That, and also the cars are 8 to 23 feet longer, causing some side and end excess problems.
>>Forgive me if this sound quite weirdo.<<
You're right, it does sound quite wierdo !
Bill "Newkirk"
The quackpipe is lit. Moo. :)
Where's the "proff" that this is quite weirdo?
We may not understand why the MTA does things, but this is something that would never happen.
That is such a dumb idea.
If anything, if we'd ever see BMT/IND cars run on the IRT, we'd have to shave all the stations back a couple of feet. Something the MTA is going to break their backs to do.
If anything, if we'd ever see BMT/IND cars run on the IRT, we'd have to shave all the stations back a couple of feet. Something the MTA is going to break their backs to do.
Ironically, much of the infastructure of the IRT (aside from shaving off the station platforms) could handle the wider cars. The tunnels are wide enough on much of the IRT.
These are mostly the IRT lines that were built during the Dual Contracts and later.
IIRC, these IRT lines could run BMT/IND sized cars: (Of course there would be no point to it it because of the small portion that can't).
-Lexington Line North of (and including) Grand Central CAN.
-7th Ave Line South of (and including) Times Square CAN.
-Brooklyn IRT East of Atlantic Ave CAN.
-7 Line's Eastern end CAN (not sure if that starts east of Vernon-Jackson or east of Queensboro Plaza).
-The Greenwich St line spur (1/9) CAN (excluding South Ferry because it was originally built with the Lexington side (Fulton, Wall St, Bowling Green, and South Ferry were built together and can't).
-All the Bronx Els.
So Basically the only places that banish the IRT lines to narrow cars are the Original Contract One stations (Lexington south of GC, 7th Ave-Bway north of Times Square, the branch to Lenox, and the 42nd St Shuttle), the original extension to Brooklyn, and the Steinway Tunnels on the 7. The rest CAN take the larger cars (with the exception of having to shave off a bit from the platforms).
Some of the lines I am not sure of are: (maybe someone can finish the puzzle)
-The Clark Street tunnel (Chambers to Atlantic on the 2/3)-I think it CAN handle the wider cars, but not sure.
-The 7 line from Vernon to Queensboro Plaza - I think it CAN handle the wider cars, but not sure.
-The Bronx subway portion (2) b/t 135th St, Manhattan and 3 Avenue, Bronx - I think it CAN, but not sure.
-The 4/5 East River tunnel (Bowling Green to Atlantic Ave on the 4/5)-I DON'T think it can handle the larger cars.
The Joralemon St. tunnel (4/5) was built to IRT specs. So was the Lenox Ave. line where the 2 runs to the Bronx. The West Farms elevated portion is IRT spec as far as E. 180th St. The extension along White Plains Rd. is Dual Contracts spec.
I would venture to guess the Clark St. tunnel is Dual Contracts spec.
Thanks for the last pieces of the puzzle.
The Joralemon St. tunnel (4/5) was built to IRT specs. So was the Lenox Ave. line where the 2 runs to the Bronx. The West Farms elevated portion is IRT spec as far as E. 180th St.
Yup, right after I posted that, it got my interest, and I did some more research. Contract one and two (both IRT specs) does include all lines above you mentioned, thus IRT specs.
I would venture to guess the Clark St. tunnel is Dual Contracts spec.
I agree, it could handle the wider cars since it is Dual Contracts standards. It's only the Contract 1 and 2 lines that could not handle it, most of which mentioned in my previous post.
My question now, is that I guess a lot of work would have had to be done on the West Farms portion between 3rd AVe and 180 if the original 2nd Ave plan had been implemented years back. The 2nd Ave subway was to be built to BMT/IND specs, but they would have taken over the White Plains El, Dyre Line, and Pelham line. No problem taking over the Pelham Line as it already is BMT/IND specs aside from the platforms. And no problem with the Dyre Ave or the White Plains (180 to 241) ends, as all they would have had to do is narrow the platforms, since the clearances were all BMT/IND standards on the line themselves.
My question is, were they planning to revamp the West Farms portion of the el (3rd Ave to 180) to handle the wider cars, or use the old NYW&B ROW from 3rd Ave to 180 to access the White Plains Line and the Dyre Line (which of course was already part of that line anyway)?
While there is a lot here on the width of cars, there is little on the length. That was where the TA considered making trains longer. Around the time they started getting 75' cars for BMT/IND, an R-21 was modified to a length of 64'. This was to emulate the idea of 'longer cars', smaller fleet. 512' trains could have been operated with 8 cars in this plan. I don't know the results from this test, but they could not have been favorable, because I think that the TA would have ordered cars to that spec (the feds were giving money for these ideas). They could have also made 57' cars and made 9-car trains, but I think that they were into purchasing cars that were unitized.
The 2nd Ave. line would have joined the White Plains Rd. line at E. 180th St., bypassing the West Farms portion. Then it would have been a matter of simply shaving back the platforms and possibly moving the signals.
Thanks, that is what I figured. I assume it would have gotten to 180 via the old NYW&B. Actually It would not have been that bad of an idea, as the 7th Av-Broadway Line and the Lex could have still run on the West Farms El, and terminated at 180 (Lex also would still have continued running to Woodlawn). The map would look quite a bit different if the 2nd Ave subway was built at that time and taking over the Bronx els.
I don't know about the tunnel width, but I have severe doubts about B-division trains running on the S-curve between Hunterspoint Ave and Courthouse Square, or between Courthouse Square and Queensboro Plaza. It might make for interesting sport, when they're ready to retire a 75-footer like the R44, to watch them try it!
:-) Andrew
It might make for interesting sport, when they're ready to retire a 75-footer like the R44, to watch them try it!
Yeah, I'm still not sure about that portion of the 7. That's the only part of the IRT unsolved yet. Of course all of the IRT lines built to BMT/IND specs that can handle the wider cars of the BMT are meant to mean 60 foot cars. There are parts of the BMT that can't even handle the 75 foot cars - so forget about it on the dual contract portions of the IRT!
There was some idea to turn sections of the IRT over to the B Div, and reduce the older sections to just a small Manhattan flyer (I remember this included connecting Jerome with Broadway to form a loop.)
One thing they could do is the flipside of the original service. Where the upper Broadway and lower Lex were the same line crossing at 42nd; connect the 7th Ave. to the upper Lex, and then you could take over the Jerome and Pelham lines, and in Brooklyn, modify the line between Boro Hall and Atlantic (it's pretty straight, so it shouldn't be that hard), and then take over the rest. The biggest construction in this would be connecting both lines to 42nd St; you'd probably have to rip out the newly redone mezzanines on both sides. The line itself is also straight, so there shouldn't be too much work in between Times Sq. and GCT.
It would have been interesting if they had just left the original IRT in it's original form when they made the estensions of the Lew and 7th Ave trunk lines. Instead you would have had two diagnol routes instead of the current routes connected by shuttle. Of course that would have made 42nd Street a pretty interesting street underground with two 4 track trunklines and the 7 line all on three levels of tracks!
Wow, I should have checked my typos before posting the above post, I was typing fast, and some trick-or-treaters were at the door, and I posted before reading that - sorry.
If you'd like to ride IRT cars on BMT-IND trackage, come with us on December 8. NYD-ERA is sponsoring a Redbird fantrip over BMT and IND lines! See the "Upcoming Events" section of nycsubway.org for details.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders Association, Incorporated
IND/BMT Cars cannot run on IRT Lines because the Cars are to wide, on the other hand IRT cars can run anywhere in the NYC Subway System, IND/BMT Cars must stay in the B Division. If this were to happen, MTA would have to cut some of the platform off to allow them to enter the station, and I don't even want to think of a R44/46 or R68/68A entering a IRT Station.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
One word comes to mind:
CRRR-RRRUN-NNNNNNNCH!!!!!!
Is this some kind of joke? Who ever heard of trying to run BMT/IND cars on the IRT.
#3 West End Jeff
I guess u can say that.
There are always people that like to play practical jokes when they feel like it.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, it depend if those individuals are in a good mood or had a great day at work.
It also depends if the person wants to play a practical joke about trains at the moment.
#3 West End Jeff
Remember about the post on "R40 confirmed on Nancy" where we were naming subway lines. That was a fun joke where I came up with a list of names referring to subway like V Train is Valeries ect.
"I came up with a list of names referring to subway like
V Train is Valeries ect."
Or like J Train is Johnsons....oops better not start that.
Wait C train would be your name "Chris"
The "W" train could be named Walter's train. It could also be named William's train, etc.
#3 West End Jeff
At one point I had troubled naming the Q train, someone here (I forgot who) named it "Quincy." :)
and J Train would also be you Jeff's. To bad J does'nt run via West End, otherwise W and J Train would be "West End Jeff's Train" :)
All you need to do with the "J" train is to run it on the Nassau St. loop and then run it through the Montague St. tunnel and finally run it down the 4th Ave. subway and switch it to the West End Line. Maybe you could call it the "WJ" train. One problem, they don;t use double letters anymore, DRAT!!
#3 West End Jeff
This is New Utrecht Ave, transfer to the available West End Jeff's train at the upper level
This is 62nd St., transfer available to Sea Beach Fred's train on the lower level.
#3 West End Jeff
Here's a interesting "Railfan's G.O.," one, West End Jeff's runs on the Sea Beach Fred's line 12:01 - 5AM Monday to Friday Dec 12 -14. Express M runs on the West End Jeff's line late nite Mon - Thur 12:01 AM - 5 AM Mar 15 - 18.
I'm a little late here, but I going back to your original post about redbirds on the J, M, Z, etc.
Actually, redbirds did indeed run on these lines as well as the "L", "B" and "C" although they were R27-R30/30a's.
Actually, redbirds did indeed run on these lines as well as the "L", "B" and "C" although they were R27-R30/30a's.
Yes, and I miss them dearly. I always hated the R27-30's, and they were always so filthy, second only to the R16's. Then they finally cleaned them up, and they were probably the nicest they looked in their entire "lives". It seems like as quickly as they were cleaned up - they were gone, just when they looked their best.
It was kind of a shame that they took the time and effort to make the R-27 and R-30s [B div. Redbirds] decent only to throw them away. I know that they weren't air conditioned, but from previous information that I have, the T/A was unwilling to spend the money to air condition those cars so they didn't go through the GOH program with the exception of a group of R-20s that received a light overhaul. If those cars did go through the GOH program, they might have remained in service up until perhaps the time the R-143s started to come in.
#3 West End Jeff
I know that they weren't air conditioned, but from previous information that I have, the T/A was unwilling to spend the money to air condition those cars so they didn't go through the GOH program
Also, I believe they would have become to heavy for the els with the addition of air conditioning. But yes, it is a shame that just when they looked the best of theor lives, they were scrapped.
Had they retrofitted the R-30s with A/C, their weight would have increased to BMT standard proportions.
If the BMT Standards operated and the Els, the R-27/30s could have operated on the Els even if they had A/C.
#3 West End Jeff
>>T/A was unwilling to spend the money to air condition<<
WELL, they must, cause Mayor Bloomberg doesn't tolerate unaircondition cars after his first ride on one of the malfunctioned AC redbird car on the 4, couple of months ago.
Who said it was a Redbird? I thought it was an R-62, but I don't remember if the article specified or if I was just going by probabilities.
No, I don't think it was the probabilities. Someone here had posted this message few months ago, but I forgot the topic of the post and the date/time when it was posted here.
It was kind of a shame that they took the time and effort to make the R-27 and R-30s [B div. Redbirds] decent only to throw them away. I know that they weren't air conditioned, but from previous information that I have, the T/A was unwilling to spend the money to air condition those cars so they didn't go through the GOH program with the exception of a group of R-30s that received a light overhaul. If those cars did go through the GOH program, they might have remained in service up until perhaps the time the R-143s started to come in.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember those cars when they still wore their original exterior olive drab paint and had the two-tone blue interior. They were clean back then, too. I always associated them with the RR, just as I associate the R-32s with the N, the R-16s with the J or 15, and the R-10s with the A. Not to mention the R-1/9s with the D.
So there WAS some IRT Fleet run on the BMT or IND division back old days.
So there WAS some IRT Fleet run on the BMT or IND division back old days.
No, no, no. The fantrip will be using the normal Redbirds in service on the IRT lines now. The "other" redbirds were the R27 and R30's, but were BMT/IND sized cars, like in the photo in another post in this thread, I posted from this site.
The only time "IRT sized" cars were used in BMT stations was when the old Myrtle AVe El ran from Metropolitan to Jay St, so the stations on the current M line between Central Ave and Metropoiltan had wide sized IND/BMT sized cars and the narrower BMT El cars (IRT sized) running on them. Another spot was the Astoria El which had narrow IRT sized cars on it, but the stations were wider to allow for this and had to be shaved off when they started running the 60th Street tunnel trains (current N) through there. So basically Central, Knickerbocker, Wyckoff, Seneca, Forest, Fresh Pond, and Metro were the only stations that had both wide and narrow trains running at them at the same time. (The narrower IRT sized gate cars had little extenders under the doors to lessen the gap a bit.
4480/81 and 4482/83 were running in seperate trains on the J line on Tuesday 10/29/02. After the PM rush, these cars were requested by ENYD so they could be transfered to CI services. I do not know if any others were requested as I saw 4484/85 running on the M Tuesday PM. Keep your eyes open in southern Brooklyn for these cars and any others sent down.
Thanks for the Update.
I understand mismate 4460/4665 was moved sometime last weekend, against conventional wisdom, so all cars from 4450-4479 are already there.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
If true, then CI has just one R42 M/K car and this pair is also door enabled, unless it was ripped out to conform with the R40M's which are not door enabled.
They would leave it in, but it would just be inactive if the other cars didn't have it. There were already some slants, (mostly 4100's) and even a 40m I operated on the N a few weeks ago that had the enablers installed. (so 4460 is not the only one.
If that pair is over there already, perhaps that is what someone saw on the N as reported on the other thread.
I can't believe it! Check it out!
http://www.therecord.com/news/special/grandvision/news_special_grandvision_021019102437.html
-J!
John,
Congratulations.
An excellent article. It's this kind of clear reporting that gets people on board and changes things. We're lucky to have top-notch people like you on the front lines.
Also a good example of the difference between Canadian and U.S. attitudes toward integrating regional planning with transportation.
See Monday's posting
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=401825
Congratulations!
-Robert King
I really like how Toronto and Edmonton are listed as not having light rail while Calgary does. The Edmonton line is quite like a light rail; in fact it uses the same cars as found in Calgary. As for Toronto, I guess 'light rail' is in vogue and streetcars aren't.
-Robert King
Cool! I've got buddies out your way, especially at the CP Locomotive shop that lurk here who will enjoy seeing your advocacy. And unlike HERE in the downunder, you guys actually have some MONEY with which to possibly do it. :)
1992...The Transit Authority begins installing automated fare collection turnstiles to prepare for the MetroCard's debut in 1994.
Peace,
ANDEE
Some of those early turnstiles were not the turnstiles that were eventually used all over the system.
The ones that you are thinking of are the GFI turnstiles, which were pre-92 and swallowed up in some kind of scandal, IIRC. The cubics started appearing in 92.
Peace,
ANDEE
If Cubic doesn't win the bid, they claim foul, in court. GFI isn't much of a fighter.
Cubics...?
Are those the predecessor to the modern HEET?
No, they were the first "modern" turnstiles that TA was considering using. They were box shaped turnstiles. They were rather plain compared to what TA eventually used. The one thing I didn't like about them was that people could easily jump over them. The flat tops were perfect for jumpers to hold on and hoist themselves over.
Where were they installed? Franklin Street?
The only place I can think of off hand was Woodhaven Blvd-J line. The turnstiles were probably installed elsewhere.
Oh, yeah. I'm sure I saw some of them when Wesley was chasing that bad guy out of that station in Money Train.
The movie was on TV the other night and I never thought to look.
Oh, yeah. I'm sure I saw some of them when Wesley was chasing that bad guy out of that station in Money Train.
Cubics are the ones they have now. GFI made the boxy ones.
Peace,
ANDEE
Daily News story on new entrance at 72nd St.
Peace,
ANDEE
I gotta check this out. Now could 96th St. be next ? That's the station you have to go downstairs to go upstairs to the street.
It would be interesting to see how they will make 96th St. ADA compliant.
Bill "Newkirk"
"Now could 96th St. be next ? That's the station you have to go downstairs to go upstairs to the street."
"It would be interesting to see how they will make 96th St. ADA compliant."
The 94th Street end (which I don't think is always open) has a standard mezzanine arrangement.
I'm glad people like it, because thy really couldn't do what they wnated to in some ways. If they could have, they would have done more, even made 72nd Street a local stop, to stop the crowding, or dramatically expanded the platforms. But there is no room. So they did the best they could under the circumstances, and if people are happy with it, than the credit deserved is great.
As for 96th Street, I hope that if there is ever a major job there that they redo the interchange north of the station so Broadway trains from north of 137th can run express without crossing over. The original idea -- one express and one local on each branch -- was the right one, though the crossovers make it impractical.
Turning 72nd into a local stop would have generated record crowds on the 1/9, which is already more crowded than the 2/3. Each station between 42nd and 96th has over 5 million annual fare registrations, and by eliminating an intermediate express stop you'd be forcing all those people onto the local together.
Widening the platforms would have been a great help, but it would have also been a great expense. The far north end of the NB platform was widened, to make room for the new staircases and elevator, and that project alone caused many weekends of service diversions.
The new stationhouse (which isn't temporary, despite the article's claim) is very nice. Construction isn't complete, and I hope someone notices soon that there's no directional sign facing passengers as they pass through the turnstiles (I don't think the guy who was there this morning with a megaphone welcoming people to the new station and directing traffic is a permanent fixture).
On the SB platform, the new staircases will help a lot. They won't be as useful on the NB platform, since they're at the far north end and passage to the north staircase is narrow (although the staircase itself is wide). I'm a bit worried that the first car of the NB express will be overcrowded as a result of the new staircase placement. That's fine by me, I suppose, since I'm usually in the ninth car.
"The new stationhouse (which isn't temporary, despite the article's claim) is very nice. Construction isn't complete, and I hope someone notices soon that there's no directional sign facing passengers as they pass through the turnstiles (I don't think the guy who was there this morning with a megaphone welcoming people to the new station and directing traffic is a permanent fixture)."
I think the newspaper's use of the word "temporary" was an unclear reference to the temporary use of the new headhouse as the ONLY entrance to the station. Come March, the station will once again have two entrances.
As to the missing station signs, why don't you call the station manager's phone number and leave a message about that?
When the Bayside LIRR station rehab was done, LIRR had no signs telling you which platform went to New York and which one to Port Washington. I called customer services at LIRR and pointed that out. They promised me the signs would be up soon, and within a week, they were.
The 94th Street end is open around the clock. I consider it the main entrance.
The 94th Street end is open around the clock. I consider it the main entrance.
It is interesting that they would have put the mezzanine on the 94th Street end, but called the station 96th, which seemingly is the less convenient exit. How is it possible to have a mezzanine on the 94th side, but not on the 96th side? I would assume it is only one level down at either side. (I am a bit ignorant of the 94th St side because although I have entered that station a few times from the street, I have always used the 96th entrance through the "local" platform).
The 94th Street mezzanine was added when the platforms were lengthened in the 50's. Until then, the only entrance was at 96th.
I believe Broadway has a gentle upward slope from 96th to 94th. I guess there was enough space to shoehorn in a mezzanine.
It's more gentle in the other direction.
Anyway, to understand the design of this station, you need to remember it's history. In the beginning, the local trains were much shorter than the expresses, which were also shorter than today. If you look closely, there are side platforms at the 96th St end of the station, which allowed direct access to the local trains before the trains got longer and fences were installed to force the local passengers to join the express pax in using the underpass to the (longer) island platforms.
If you look closely, there are side platforms at the 96th St end of the station, which allowed direct access to the local trains before the trains got longer and fences were installed to force the local passengers to join the express pax in using the underpass to the (longer) island platforms.
At some stations that would not be a bad set-up to reinstate. Unfortunately it would probably be cost prohibitive to extend the local platforms at some of those stations, especially because the original IRT express platorms are so narrow because most of them are extensions into the tunnels, and weren't set up to have those lond platforms. (Although it would not have been too different from when they extended the normal local stations along the original route of the IRT). One drawback to that set-up though would be that you couldn't really wait for "the first train that comes" if you wait at either the local platform or express platform (similar to Penn Station IRT and IND).
Curiously they didn't put local platforms at all of the Contract One express stations. Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and 96th had eperate local platforms. However, Grand Central and 72nd did not. I wonder why.
Can anyone give photos or a good description about what happened here? i thought they had torn down the origional station house, but the article says they didn't? Anyone know what's going to hgappen to it and what's being changed in it?
Oh yes, I'll have to research it, but I believe the company I work for made the controller for the elevator in the new part of the station. At least that's the word in the test department....
Of course they didn't tear down the old one. It's a landmark, well deserving of that status. Besides, the new one just opened yesterday -- how would people have been able to access the station if the old one had been torn down?
A new stationhouse just opened. It occupies most of the space formerly occupied by the northbound roadway of Broadway between 72nd and 73rd. The old stationhouse is across 72nd. It was closed yesterday. It will be rehabbed and reopened, I'd guess as a part-time entrance.
The elevators aren't running yet.
Construction progress update, for those interested: turnstiles in the old stationhouse were removed yesterday afternoon, and dismantling of the newsstand in front of the building has begun.
Has the annunciator in the old stationhouse been turned off yet? It was chirping away on Sunday.
Speaking of Sunday, the new stationhouse opened just in time -- it was mobbed after the marathon. (Turnstile registrations won't give an accurate count. Lines at the booth and the machines were long and the service gates never had a chance to close.)
where are the elavators at 72nd st
The work on them has not been completed, so they are currently non-existent.
I agree with this post.
:)
These guys did a great job.
Speaking of major rehab projects, I'm sure you're all aware of the planned project for the 71 St-Broadway/Jackson Heights Complex serving the 7/E/F/V and G lines. Do you think they'll put nice stained tiles like that? I hope so...
It's gorgeous. And not only that, the other headhouse will be ready in March. And the platforms are longer, so there is more room for people (albeit I would have preferred a wider platform - but this is still very good).
Bravo.
The platforms aren't longer. The SB platform is exactly where the SB platform was before, only some of its space is occupied by the new staircases. The NB platform was lengthened a bit to reach the new staircases, but its other end will be abandoned to compensate. There is actually less room for people now than there was before.
"but its other end will be abandoned to compensate"
Why is it necessary to abandon part of a platform. Why not just keep it?
So people will wait for a train where no train will stop? It's bad enough on the C and G.
In any case, I don't call the shots. I just noticed a few weeks ago that the platform edge and floor tile installation had been completed over the entire platform except the extreme south end, and that the wall tapestries ended directly across from the end of the tiled floor. Then it hit me.
Perhaps it would have been better to have had trains continue to stop where they've been stopping all along and to fence off the tracks by the staircases, giving more room to maneuver.
I see...
Why is it necessary to abandon part of a platform. Why not just keep it?
Saves money on new floor tile, and eliminates crowding at the last set of doors, where everyone waiting in the no-train area would try to squeeze on.
The first contract proposal for NJT Conductors was thrown in the garbage because it SUCKS. They have been without a contract for about 1 1/2 years and now another proposal may not come out for another 2 1/2 years. They want more money (Like MNRR or LIRR who's top pay is about $28.00 per hour!) than what they are getting ($21.85 per hour). In my opinion, those conductors are the front-line employees for that company and should be paid accordingly. NJT does not want to pay it's coonductors such a descent amount of money because then they'll have their engineers 10% more as part of the BLE (Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers). And the chairman of their union (UTU) supposidly does not give a damn-for 13 years now.
The first contract proposal for NJT Conductors was thrown in the garbage because it SUCKS. They have been without a contract for about 1 1/2 years and now another proposal may not come out for another 2 1/2 years. They want more money (Like MNRR or LIRR who's top pay is about $28.00 per hour!) than what they are getting ($21.85 per hour). In my opinion, those conductors are the front-line employees for that company and should be paid accordingly. NJT does not want to pay it's coonductors such a descent amount of money because then they'll have their engineers 10% more as part of the BLE (Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers). And the chairman of their union (UTU) supposidly does not give a damn-for 13 years now.
While we're on the same gist, how much money does a NYCT Conductor make? How many hours does a NYCT and a NJT conductor work in one day?
$21.85 and $28.00 are both decent enough. THEY sure are getting paid for their job's worth.
>>>...how much money does a NYCT Conductor make?<<<
About 42k before OT.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's after 3 years in title if coming from the street.
Hey Fishbowl, I agree with what you say about how stressful being a RR conductor is compared to a subway conductor. Im an assistant conductor for Septa and its ot easy because the amount of money you haveto carry and people just trying to pull a fast 1 on you. Hopefully soon i ill be pulled ino class to be a qualified conductor. Training is about 6 months. I hear its hard. If you dont make it you are out of a job. Is it the same over at NJT. I knwo they make there assistant conductors go for conductor, but if they dont make i, ar they outta a job or do they just stay an assitant conductor? Im just curious. Seta is a bus company trying to run a railroad. Hehe :-P
Yes, it's similar at NJT, they force assistant conductors to pass a "conductor promotion" test after a year and a half to two years after being hired. The class only lasts for 3 days, then the test is on the 4th day. There are 12 sections, you only have to take over the sections you failed. They give you 3 chances to pass everything, if you still fail, you're out of a job.
After this process, the youngest person who passed the test can be "forced assigned" a conductor assignment if nobody else bids on it. If that happens, you are then required to qualify on the physical characteristics of the lines your assignment runs on, BEFORE you actually work the job as a conductor. There are several tests during the qualification process, some which are given by AMTRAK rules examiners if you're qualifying the Northeast Corridor, Penn Station, and Sunnyside. You are paid 8 hours per day full conductor's rate while you qualify, and the company tells you how many days it should take. If you take longer than the precsribed time, you do it on your own time without getting paid. Talk about stress!!
Uh, excuse me, but how can you compare a subway conductor with a railroad conductor? Does a subway conductor have to collect fares on the train? Does a subway conductor have to argue with passengers about expired monthly passes or incorrect tickets? Does a subway conductor have to carry hundreds of dollars on them while walking through several cars? Does a subway conductor have to know signals, track and interlocking layouts to back a train up in an emergency or when a disabled train is blocking a track? Does a subway conductor have to throw switches either in the yard or on a main track? Does a subway conductor have to re-attach air hoses between the cars if the train hits debris such as a deer? Does a subway conductor have to put 2 handbrakes on and do a brake test every time they change ends? Does a subway conductor have to open and close traps at low level platforms?
I realize that subway conductors have a stressful job, but if they have to perform any of the above duties, I will stand corrected.
The cleaner at my station WAS a subway c/r until a passenger did a job on half her face. That happen a lot at NJT?
No, but it could. On some of our equipment we have to stand with the door open as we leave a station, to observe the platform. However, some conductors have been assaulted over the years just working inside the cars, always coming in contact with the public. Even if there is a point on a line where it is slow and there are no more fares to be collected, the company still wants us to walk through the cars, to be "visible" and "available".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with more and more cross cabs in the New York subways, the c/r's have less and less contact with the public.
I also forgot to mention in my original post that in addition to all of the aforementioned duties, I still have to open and close the doors and make announcements.
It is the HS kids and the homeless that 'make' the job.
BTW, it was not just the MONEY. There were several other reasons why the contract was rejected. Cutting off-duty times, paying conductors a different differential than assistant conductors, allowing for comingled service on passenger assignments (doing yard work during a meal break between passenger trains), and other things that escape me at the moment. The money offer was the least of the problems.
At one of the subway entrances at Times Sq, there are large, flashing route bullets arranged in a wavy pattern to fit in with the TSQ vibe. The last time I saw it was before the W and diamond Q came around. How long did it take for them to put in new bullets? Or have they still not done it, which would be pretty funny?
They still have not added the new bullets.
I am as wacky as the next person but I don't see why that would be funny.
Just the image of a tourist trying to find the W and spending 10 minutes looking at the right subway entrance but confused. Not the funniest thing in the world, I know :-)
Perhaps, but then one of us would tell them to take the BMT.
Imagine the look on their faces - now that would be funny.
Do you mean the entrance that was in the building where the Times Square Brewery was. If so, I think that entire building was torn down (except for the subway entrance corner), and a new building is currently being built around and on top of the entrance. That entrance also had one of the original 1904 "Times Square" name tablets in it that they brought up from the shuttle platform.
The building construction could be the reason that they were absent for a while.
That entire exit is closed now. The bullets survive at the newer entrance on the ground floor of the Reuters building on the NW corner of 42nd and 7th.
I like that sign! I wouldn't necessarily expect them to add the "W"
as that train is temporary. I think this sign is meant to be permanent, and I think it's fun and exciting. (Even if it's exact location has not been.) I especially enjoy
it at night when our subways get to show off some of the bright lights the theatre district is famous for.
You guys need to "lighten" up!
I wonder what they did with that piece of the wall with the old Times Square name tablet on it that they brought up from the platform. It wasn't even there that long. It's like they just finished renovating that exit in the old building, and then a year of two later it was decided to tear the whole building down. I doubt the MTA would have spent all that money on that renovation if they would have known that the owner of the building was going to tear it down so soon after they renovated the exit.
>>I wonder what they did with that piece of the wall with the old Times Square name tablet on it that they brought up from the platform.<<
For intents and purposes, it's probably still there. That entrance/exit was extremely busy when open. Since a new building is being constructed above, it isn't wise to keep it open during construction. I could be wrong, but I feel that entrance will be unchanged when the building is complete.
Bill "Newkirk"
You are probably right, since they were very careful to leave the exit intact and operating throughout the demolition of the "Times Square Brewery" building.
The Brewery building was always meant to be temporary until a new skyscraper could be built on that site. I'm sure the MTA took that into account when designing the entrance.
That would be a picture of the entrance at the Reuters building. There's also a brand new entrance across the street at the Ernst and Young building done in the same style - flashing lights and bullets - but with different letters. I believe Ernst and Young has the Q and W, but it's missing the A, C, and E.
While on NJT today, noticed that there are Conductors and Assistant Conductors. What is the difference between them, and what are the qualifications for the job.
BTW...2 questions
1) Does SEPTA have conductors and Ass't Conductors too?
2)How does Amtrak's system work with this too?
Thanks
>>What is the difference between them
On makes more money then the other. LIRR also have brakemen I believe as well (can they lift transportation?)
im not sure about Amtrak and SEPTA, but in Metro North and probably for Long island Railroad, Assistant Conductors are the new guys and gals who are NOT qualified on Physical characteristics, signals and other qualifications to be a conductor. as a matter of fact, look at the MTA website requirements for Asistant Conductor. u will notice that eventually after one year or 2, u will have to qualify as a Conductor or they might even terminate your employment. Assistant Conductors usually help out the conductor, but they usually trade duties. i have seen Assistant Conductors do doors, the brake test, and other conductor duties besides the usual ticket collecting.
>>> there are Conductors and Assistant Conductors. What is the difference between them, and what are the qualifications for the job <<<
Generally in railroading, the Conductor is the person in charge of the train. He is like the captain of a ship, so there should be only one Conductor on each train no matter how many cars there are. He/she is the one who determines, based on input from others when a train should leave a station. The Assistant Conductors are there to help him in his duties with the passengers. At one time, even freight trains had a Conductor.
Tom
At one time, even freight trains had a Conductor.
Almost all freight trains *do* have a conductor.
Maybe a dinky way local can run on man with a remote clicker...
Maybe a few yard jobs, running the locomotive with the remote control.
Road Jobs on class 1 lines *all* hace conductors in charge of the train.
And yes, the COLLECT THE FARES! (or leastwise manage the paperwork! ~ the manifest!)
And while the conductor is in charge of the train, with the loss of the fireman and brakeman, it is he who will have to walk down the train if there is a problem. (While the Hogger stays put in his nice warm cab!)
Elias
The conductor on a local freight train works his butt off. He does all the couplings and uncouplings and brake line connections and disconnections when cars are set out and picked up. The conductor of this Penn Jersey Lines train (barely perceptible next to the pole) was walking back to the engine after coupling several cars that had been set out by Conrail Shared Assets. They were subsequently delivered to the customer.
Jersey Mike: this is the guy who resigned from CSX after 29 consecutive 12 hour days. He's very happy working 20 to 25 hours per week (he's retired from his non railroad job after working 40 years).
I immediately thought of the music world when I saw this thread.:)
The Daily News reported yesterday that it will cost $250 million to study the feasability of giving the LIRR access to Lower Manhattan.
Is this price tag for just a study possible?
It is very unlikely that such a plan would be implemented, for many reasons, not the least of which is the many $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ it will cost.
Why don't they just include the LIRR Lower Manhattan Branch with plans for the 2nd Ave subway (it could run as a lower level under the subway). The connectors and tunnels are already there at 63rd St. This also allows for access to the east side of manhattan.
Because the plans for the 2nd Av Subway are mostly complete. I don't think they should delay the project any more by making radical changes to it. If anything, they should add express tracks underneath, not LIRR tracks.
Do you know where I can find those plans?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/index.html
Do you know where I can find those plans?
www.taxpayermoneydownthetoilet.com
LOL, that's a rim shot Peter !
Not to worry, if the train doesn't stop in Rensselaer county, Ho Bruno won't fund it. Word from "TekValee" in upstate New York where BANKS can't afford T1's and DSL ain't gonna happen. RoadRunner is actually a feathered descendant of the dinosaur up here. But we're all gonna be rich on da interenet at 9600 baud! Woohoo! :)
Now if ya had a BASEBALL team, we're talking capital investment!
So, do you really run a business off of dial up? If so, I'm sorry. :-)
Question, why is it the gov'ts responibilty to upgrade ya'lls telly-communications system? Or is it their job to give the word and the phone companies and ISPs will move in to upgrade? Or there just aren't enough people up there for private investment at this time?
YEP ... it's ABSOLUTELY TRUE! We have a couple hundred employees in MINNESOTA, but CAN'T do business in NEW YORK. Thank ya, Joe Bruno for taking that cold, hard cash from Verizon to look the other way while the internet snuck out of town. Yep, "TECH VALLEY." Uh-huh. It's in MINNESOTA, a company called "Digital River" which AIN'T made in New York. :(
Only reason I LIVE here still is that I *love* the PEOPLE and the CLIMATE of upstate New York. The POLICIANS, PTOOEY, whoops, Pataki. But yeah, can't do business here without DSL, and 33k BAUD is HIGH SPEED in Brunoland ... But yeah, as a Conservative BUSINESS type, THAT'S why I'm honked. Rumor is ROAD RUNNER might come to town as soon as 2004. Woohoo! Yeehah ...
Here's the deal (forgot to mention this angle, I'm *SO* cheesed off at having to eat DOG FOOD because I'ma NYS business) ... Verizon INSTALLED DSL at our central office. Public Service Commission KNOWS this ... but JOE BRUNO WANTS BUSINESS TO MOVE TO ***TROY*** and it's a phucking ARMPIT.
So the equipment is NOT TURNED ON (though costs were taken years ago) just so BRUNO and PATURKEY can move jobs around so they can claim "New Jobs" as a result of RELOCATIONS ... THAT'S the game. Golisano is DEAD right! BRUNO and PATURKEY are playing THREE CARD MONTY!
We REFUSE to move since the business AND OUR HOME are in the same town. So we can go to hell for DSL. We've made our arrangements though, our company's servers, and our TAXABLE SALES are in MINNESOTA. Smart, VERY smart ... same for all the OTHER businesses in this town we live in which is largely made up of small software companies who do BUSINESS in another STATE.
What our sausage packers fail to realize is that the INTERNET is global. We could have set up our business on TikiTiki. As long as there's a dialtone and a login, we could be ANYWHERE. We CHOOSE to be in New York, but New York is not the least bit INTERESTED in TECHNOLOGY companies ...
In that article I linked to in my previous, Joe Bruno takes great PRIDE in "high tech" ... BULLSHIRT. He's only trying to SHAKE US DOWN FOR CASH ... if he CARED, that DSL would be turned ON and we'd be paying NEW YORK taxes instead of paying Jesse Ventura, who has a clue. :(
Whew, I thought WE were bad! Sounds like NY politicans could give GA cronies a run for their money!
Where'd ya think the crackers LEARNED it? Hell, son ... *WE* were the CARPETBAGGERS! :)
Points well taken. Otherwise, it could be another 60 years or so of waiting. The express tracks are great idea - I hope your suggestion is explored further by the powers that be.
Adding LIRR tracks as express tracks is a better idea.
No, they are not. The tunnels and connectors are for the subway. The LIRR tunnel is one level down, and, while technically it could work, there isn't any money in the Capital Plan to bring LIRR service down Second Av that way.
There's no money in the Capital Plan to bring the LIRR downtown via any other route either. The question is, setting all of the bureaucratic problems aside, whether it is more efficient to bore a single, two level tunnel down 2nd Ave from 63rd St to serve both NYCTA and LIRR or a much less expensive tunnel for just the subway and a second tunnel somewhere else to bring the LIRR downtown. If it's not more efficient, then forget the whole thing. If it is, then we have to consider whether the political and bureaucratic obstacles make it impossible to obtain the funds to do the job right.
For $500 million perhaps they could extend the LIRR to the Brooklyn waterfront and build a ferry dock. The cost of these "studies" is ridiculous.
These aren't studies. Those to whom the study is awarded bribe the government agents who create the study with half of the study amount.
Then they photocopy the old 1970s study and have their unpaid intern from a local high school or college read the thing and change all of the dates and the references to now dead public officials.
Then they photocopy the old 1970s study and have their unpaid intern from a local high school or college read the thing and change all of the dates and the references to now dead public officials.
Do they change the references to the public officials now in prison?
Only in NJ.
In NY, we don't prosecute public officials any more.
If we did, Paturkey, Bruno, and half the legislature would be breaking rocks and making license plates. Oh wait, we don't do THOSE in prison either. As the saying went in the legislature with glee, "New York may have the best crafted laws, but they also have the most juice." Word.
But Paturkey, Bruno and their butt buddies *WILL* be reupped. New Yorkers LOVE picking up the political soap in the shower. :)
Are the M-7 cars still testing during the day?
For a while, they were passing thru Forest Hills between 1 and 2 every afternoon.
they also test at night. i work nights at MTA Metro North Railroad. In order to get to work, i take the 852 and change at jamaica for the 902. i always see it on track 1 while i am on track 3 making kew gardens and forest hills. i hear that once they make their 2000 miles trouble free, they should be entering service soon
That's a good thing, I can't wait until they come over here on the Flatbush Branch.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I've heard the M-7s and heard comments from other commuters. People will like the cars but will likely be complaining about one feature - the inverters on the test set are noticeably loud.
I'll predict it right now - you're going to hear complaints about inverter noise with them. How/if they'll fix it is another issue.
Since you have not been on inside of cars how do you know the people will hear the inverters inside ??
and on outside of the train if they do not exceed the max allowable Dba's who cares.
Ya know, if I can hear them from the other side of the freaking sunrise highway, I'd say they're pretty darn loud. I'll stand by my prediction here: You will hear complaints about inverter noise.
The significantly quieter R-142s have been the subject of a few newspaper articles already.....
i predict that they wouldn't be so bad because i rode a railroad train built by them (bombardier) in Canada and it had the same loud inverter thing but when i was inside, i didn't hear much from it
Who did the inverters? I believe the M-7 is Mitsubishi, and their first US order.
I suppose you're referring to the Montreal area MR-90's. i think those were Alstom inverters.
I was surprised myself when I heard an M-7, since I was under the impression the Japanese are very touchy about these things. The Mitsubishi inverters we have used at work are as quiet as any other.
According to a report on News 12 the first 8-car set in revenue service departed Long Beach for Flatbush at 8:38 AM today. Supposedly one more set in NOV, & DEC and 4 in JAN with total replacement of M1/3 by 2006.
Initally to be on Long Beach and West Hempstead and Hempstead. No timetable given for other branches to get the new equipment.
I wish you all would of told me this earlier, I'm only two blocks away from the Nostrand Ave. Station on the Flatbush Line.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaepxress6250
http://www.newsday.com/ny-lirr1030,0,7157451.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dheadlines
There is no plan to replace the M-3's and the M-7's will only partialy replace the M-1's
Does anyone know the schedule right now.
Anybody who can help with this, will be appreciated.
i dunno if it makes the same run all the time, but lately, its been on the long beach. the 731 out of flatbush avenue. the 838 returning to flatbush around 935. from there i dunno
There will be an exhibit on subterranean New York on November 10, including a few photos of abandoned subway stations and other such delights. It's on that day only and is set inside Bob Diamond's Atlantic Avenue Tunnel in Brooklyn.
Enjoy.
http://www.creativepreservation.org/event
I was wondering why it is always referred to as "Bob Diamond's Atlantic Avenue Tunnel." I know he rediscovered it, but did he buy it? Isn't it under a street or some other public property?
I think he "bought" the rights to it after its "rediscovery". He may have even taken title to it; I don't know.
--mark
You think if I bribed the TA, knowing how much I love the Sea Beach, they would name one of those mini-tunnels after me? Maybe the one just before New Utrecht?. No, I didn't think so. However, they could get that filthy swastika washed off the front of that tunnel. It should be an embarrassment to the TA and very offensive to me. Even Ron in Bayside has to agree with me on that. Ron? Ron?
If you send a check to Joe Bruno for $5,000, he'll name an AMTRAK station after you. I'm sure he'd even rename the "N" the "SeaBeachFred" line ... dis is Noo Yawk ... money talks. :)
I'll take a cash advance on my MasterCard if he changes the "W" to the "T" and makes it permanent ;-) Heck if that happens before next Tuesday I might even vote for your favorite gov - Paturkey ;-)
The Sea Beach Fred Line. Man, I like it. Where's my checkbook?
Geez ... leave it to a republican to lose the checkbook. :)
Yeah, no joke ... that's what a Senator costs. $5,000. We paid $230 to have Bruno as our "date" for a lunch and wouldn't ya know, even without Viagra, he stiffed us?
Here's an interesting little story on Senator Hairball that might raise your blood pressure and tell ya who to make the check out to:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=66018&category=REGION&newsdate=10/28/2002
(no subscription required, no salescritters will call)
He stifed YOU? That's not what I would expect from an Italian-Republican----maybe a Dago Dem. Is he your State Senator? I agree that if he shined you on he is a first class shithead. We have one out here, Bill Simon, running for Governor of California. He is so bad that I am going to vote for a Democrat for the first time since 1986. I guess we have dirtbags in both parties when we stop and look carefully.
Did you check out the article about him in the message you replied to? Heh. Yeah, he gave us the high hard one. When we lunched with him, he was interested in how much money our company made, quickly realized we were "small potatoes" and then tried to strongarm us from relocating the company from the village we live in over to TROY (his district) a good long haul from here. He was adamant that we do that and kept harping on it. (Joey's been looting Albany and other surrounding counties his whole political career and has even moved whole state agencies out to his place) ... he offered to connect us up with bankers he knew IF we moved, we didn't need that. What we NEEDED was for the local telco to turn ON the existing DSL equipment that had been installed there back when I was with the PSC.
The REASON why Joey is so omnipotent is a curious thing about how New York governance works ... while New York has a Governor, an Assembly and a Senate, it doesn't WORK that way. Instead, Joey (Senate majority leader), Shelly Silver (Assembly majority leader) and Paturkey gather in smoke-filled back rooms and wheel and deal, slicing up the pie among THEMSELVES. THEY make the deals, they modify the bills and the elected representatives from the rest of the state have NO SAY in what gets packed in the sausage factory. The bills get trotted out for a vote at the LAST MINUTE, reps are not allowed to read them and must vote without reading what they're voting ON. Such is New York.
My State senator is in the wrong party, so is meaningless. So if you want anything, whether you live in Brooklyn, Canandaigua or Albany you have to go hat in hand to Don Bruno with some juice. While the voters have their eyes on City Hall, these clowns are porking them.
We didn't get the DSL even though the central office is wired for it. Verizon is a BIG campaign contributor. So here we are in "Tech Valley" and we can't even get a flipping dialtone. Gotta love these porkers, and they'll ALL get re-elected. :(
Then there's the Brighton (Exp.) Bob line.
Hey Fred, have them hire a rat exterminator for the Montague St. tunnel.:) Wonder if the Pied Piper is available.:)
If all goes right we can stick Bob's train in that pesthole and put mine back on the Manny B where she has always belonged. Besides, Bob would feel right at home down there with his furry friends.
Shame it is only one day - I will arrive in NYC on November 14
(8-( . But Simon Billis from the UK will be there on that date, I think - I hope you enjoy this exhibit, Simon.
Fytton.
I read something in yesterday's Daily News about the delay in opening of the Jamaica portion of AirTrain until the NTSB completes its investigation into the recent derailment that killed a worker, and that the delay could be up to a year.
Anyone else hear about this?
That would suck big time, although it would give them time to do any "tweaking" they might have found needed during the test phase and accident investigation.
Perhaps adding a re-inforced "guard" rail along the ROW which runs above the Van Wyck, to prevent the train from falling as almost happened in the de-railment.
>>Perhaps adding a re-inforced "guard" rail along the ROW which runs above the Van Wyck, to prevent the train from falling as almost happened in the de-railment.<<
That won't be necessary. Just run the trains at what the guideway and curves are rated for and not exceed that speed limit.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would have thought that the automated operation could be set not to exceed safe speeds and stop trains that do, in the manner, if not the mechanism, that timing signals do in the subway's system of block signals. Of course, there was that BART train that tried to extend operation beyond the last stop some years ago. On second thought, perhaps we do need further safety measures.
>>I would have thought that the automated operation could be set not to exceed safe speeds and stop trains that do, in the manner, if not the mechanism, that timing signals do in the subway's system of block signals.<<
The automated operation will be set not to exceed unsafe speeds. There are other automated systems that do this with much success.
The Airtrain accident is still a mystery because we don't know if the operator was intentionally operating too fast to see what the cars could do. Also the shifting simulated dead weight helped in the derailment.
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, not quite true. Read the previous posts and the links to newspapers. We do know, because both Bombardier and the NTSB have said so, publicly, that the computerized speed control had been DISABLED. Therefore, the accident occurred due to NO SAFETY SYSTEM IN OPERATION.
What isn't clear is why the operator ran the train so fast.
>>We do know, because both Bombardier and the NTSB have said so, publicly, that the computerized speed control had been DISABLED<<
Hmmm.......now who disabled the speed control ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You didn't read the article or the previous thread.
The speed control was purposefully disabled by Bombardier - but the real question is whether hitting the curve at 58 mph was the result of a miscommunication between Bombardier and the test operator, or the operator joyriding, or ???
Sorry for being "short" on the previous post - I'm still thinking about www.kcata.org; God what a nightmare. And I thought San Diego Transit was bad
The Jamaica leg wasn't due to begin service until March or April of 2003 anyway, so this is not a disaster. The next effect of this may be a delay of 6-8 months in opening the most important leg (to Jamaica Station), and even if it is a bit longer than that, it doesn't matter. Safety is first in priority.
Perhaps adding a re-inforced "guard" rail along the ROW which runs above the Van Wyck, to prevent the train from falling as almost happened in the de-railment.
That's virtually impossible. If a concrete wall could be built that would stop a 106 ton train moving 58 mph, the viaduct certainly couldn't support its weight.
Not that kind of guardrail. I think. Come to think of it, maybe he did mean that kind of guardrail.
Anyway, is there a guard rail of the type usually found on railroad bridges and in sharp curves -- a rail sitting just inside the running rail -- in place on the Airtrain guideway in general or on that curve?
That sucks. Oh well, what can you do? It's bad enough that accident occured, but now this!?
That sucks. Oh well, what can you do? It's bad enough that accident occured, but now this!?
From the BMT portion of this site, the following info appears regarding the turnouts south of the 36th Street/4 Ave station and a possible closed mezzanine that may be located above the tunnel.
"South of this station are the turnouts from the 4th Avenue Line to the BMT West End Line, which heads to Coney Island. These turnouts have a very interesting history. The original construction was a four track turnout into 40 Street to connect to what was then to be known as the New Utrecht Av Line. The connection was built as far as the southeast corner of 39 St and 4 Av. The northbound local track was to connect at grade but the other three tracks passed under the 4 Avenue Line. The trackways are about 70 feet deep and now are below ground water. With the signing of the Dual Contracts it was decided to make the connection via the "Culver Cut" which was then used for Culver and West End trains to reach the waterfront. To do this the original platforms had to be moved further north and the original south mezzanine was closed off although it is still intact and can be reached by a stairway in the tunnel. Rumor has it that a kind of glass ceiling tile which permitted light from the street to enter the mezzanine enabled one to see into the mezzanine. Part of the closed off area is now used as a signal relay room."
Has anyone ever seen this area or have photos of it?
>>From the BMT portion of this site, the following info appears regarding the turnouts south of the 36th Street/4 Ave station and a possible closed mezzanine that may be located above the tunnel.<<
I have but one picture, but my new slide scanner is not yet hooked up. To describe what the photo is, I was invited back in the late 70's to ride back on the Nostalgia Special after everyone was dropped off at 57th St. and 6th Ave and the equipment would run light to Coney Island yard.
I was riding the D-Types, with my camera set up with flash ready. We left 36th St. to switch over to the West end track to head to Coney Island yard. While switching, the shot I got showed wall tile and mosaics just the station. Although covered by steel dust, my camera recorded what you cannot see from the station.
As for the abandoned fare controls, I was told it exists and is covered up
Bill "Newkirk"
I have but one picture, but my new slide scanner is not yet hooked up.
That's sounds terribly like me. I am a terrible procrastinator with stuff like that. It took me forever to buy one, and now it's taking forever for me to learn how to use it. It's fairly easy to operate, but I have some work to do on the editing programs, etc that came with it, and keep putting it off. I really should set some time aside to work on that.
I have also seen either very grimy wall tile or wall tile painted over in black while riding Manhattan-bound 4th Avenue locals into 36th Street station. Concentrate on the "outside" wall of the tunnel as the train slowly enters 36th St - you will see wall tile that lines up with the mosaic tile that says "36th Street".
--Mark
From looking at the track maps I can't see how this track connects with the rest of the system. Isn't the connection with the 123 covered by a concrete walkway? How do they move service the trains to/from this track for yard maintenance?
The "concrete walkway" is actually a removeable bridge that can be removed to let trains through.
Track 4 (the Northernmost track) connects to the uptown Local of the West Side IRT just North of the IRT mainline 42 St Station. Track 1(The southernmost shuttle track) connect to the downtown Local track of the Lexington line South of Grand Central on the Lex.
Once a week they change the trains on the shuttle via these connectors. The bridge at Times Square is removeable. At Grand Centrak there is a gate across the track which woudl be opened by a TS. The Gate is justt the Queens end of the Shuttle platform.
Wow ... I'm surprised to hear they swap out cars that often and not when they're "due" for rotation for SMS as I would have expected. Thanks for something I never realized. Many, many years ago I happened to be there when they were making a move from track 4 ... amusing to say the least with the "mini-crane" they used to lift da bridge. :)
Two weeks ago they had R-62A 1956 on Track 4. I had to take a picture of it, being my birth year.
And speaking of my birth year, it was on this date that streetcar service in Brooklyn came to an end.
Once a week they change the trains on the shuttle via these connectors.
When is this done? Do they sell tickets to this show?
during overnight hoursa when the sguttle is closed. They do have gates at Grand Central to close the passageway and Times Square it is taped off.
I bet some people would pay good money to watch.
TA has no entrepreneurial spirit.
They tape off the platform? What a waste of tape. They should get a gate of some sort or teach people how to read the sign saying NO SERVICE 12 AM-5 AM, TAKE 7.
There are gates that close off the shuttle platforms at Times Square and Grand Central from 12M to 5 AM.
At TS? Really?
Really.
When you walk up from the BMT, you go up some stairs or ramps. There is a booth on the right hand side. The shuttle is straight ahead and the gates are there.
I'll have to look more closely as I rush through there Monday. I never noticed gates that isolate the shuttle platform from the rest of the station.
Right after that I can look for the remnants of track 2 as I ride over to GCT.
Isn't it a removable walkway over the track? I don't know, however, how often it is removed, if ever..
What is that thing made of? Cast Iron, perhaps? It makes me scared to cross that thing. Imagine it just collapsing....
That's a great place to stand to watch the nb #1/2/3/9 go by! You are literally 10 feet from the train going by. Well, trains on the local track. I'm surprised at how open it is. Don't worry, it is very sturdy.
--Brian
>>That's a great place to stand to watch the nb #1/2/3/9 go by! You are literally 10 feet from the train going by. Well, trains on the local track.<<
You never know what the plans are to rehab that shuttle station. They just may wall it up and eliminate the walkway bridge.
Bill "Newkirk"
Then how would they send the trains off the for repairs, if they put up a wall.
Robert
There is a connection to the Lexington Line that they could use.
Not from track 4. That track's only connection to the rest of the system is under the bridge.
Remember that the shuttle doesn't run overnight and that the station exit north of the shuttle is part-time. The bridge can be removed at night to allow trains to move in and out.
And here's the PROFF ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/34-42.gif
Somehow I don't think Track 1 swoops around the way it's depicted on the map where it joins the s/b 6 track. If you watch the 1905 film clip, the curve from Park Ave. to 42nd St. is an ordinary 90-degree turn. The tracks did not swing out. One of these days I'm going to shell out some bucks and buy one of Mark's videos of a train leaving Grand Central on the shuttle track. Mark, I promise...:)
Wouldn't matter much to me either way, moving out of there would be a grid heater no matter how you notched it. :)
>>Not from track 4. That track's only connection to the rest of the system is under the bridge.<<
They could always install a switch for Track #4.
Bill "Newkirk"
They could, but it's probably cheaper to move the bridge when necessary.
Well, if they install the same switch mechanism as the switch from
Track 3 at Grand Central to Track 1, it's a hand trow. No need to
wire to a tower. Cost effective.
;-) Sparky
That would probably be easier than having to move the walkway for train movements.
> Imagine it just collapsing....
You'd fall four feet to the track. Probably not a big deal...
Isn't the third rail active?
Of course it is. Though most of us on here at Subtalk are not that stupid to walk near it. I guess I did overreact. But is anything worse?
Not having looked, it would surprise me if the 3rd rail ran under the bridge. A third rail gap of 10' is not unheard of.
IIRC, there is a gap there. I'll have to go look there later to be sure. Anyway, the bridge is a heavy steel plate and isn't going to collapse from pedestrian traffic.
I took a look at the bridge yesterday with special attention to the 3rd rail gap and strength questions.
I estimate that the 3rd rail gap is about half a car length, starting c. 10 feet East of the bridge and extending to a point about 20 feet West of the bridge. While EMU trains such as run on the IRT can get across, since cars on either side would have power, I would love to see a work train with only a single electric loco try it.
As for the bridge structure, it seems that rather than being one or two big steel plates (as I remembered it), its actually a bunch of smaller steel plates laid across a frame of steel I-beams.
Yes, it's active. So don't pee on it like the drunk in Chicago did.
>>Isn't it a removable walkway over the track? I don't know, however, how often it is removed, if ever.<<
Look down at the rails and see how much dirt is covering them. My guess is they haven't used it in years. They already have a track connection ay Grand Central.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nope.
Is track 2 ( I guess it's track 2) ever used for anything. No connections to anything.
Track 2, the light grey one was removed. That is why there is an extra wide platform at GCT between 1 and 3.
AFAIK the rails are still in place in the tunnel. The track itself is severed on both ends much the same way as the Coney Island-bound Sea Beach express track.
AFAIK the rails are still in place in the tunnel.
Don't think so, Steve... anyone riding that line regularly want to check for us?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll take a look. I have walked down to the East end of the platform built over the Track 2 ROW at TS and don't recall seeing any rails as far as I could see from the end of the platform.
I'm pretty sure I saw rails while riding on one of the adjacent tracks. Of course, I could be wrong.
It was removed after the fire that destroyed the automated train. When the station was rebuilt, track 2 was permanently severed.
I was under the impression that there was a switch on Track #4, but as I said on a related post, they could always install a switch.
Bill "Newkirk"
They would probably have to knock out some support beams to do it.
Hey CI Peter, here's a car which needs repairs....hehe.
Car #6444 has one broken storm door which opens only halfway. Hmm...I also wonder what the problem is on the run from E180th to 149th which the downtown line skips 174th and East Tremont?...
Just watched the channel 7 eyewitness news, as of 4PM, TA employees goes on stike @ the mta headquarter and demanding Higher salary and more health benefits since their contract is expired on the 15 of DEC. I wonder what mayor bloomberg is saying about this. Now, one interesting tidbit is that workers are single parents and purpose of this strike is for them to put food on the table and provide day-care for their children. Sounds much more reasonable to me.
Really?
Here's a possible situation...
'Help!!!'
'Complete Chaos!'
'The 70's all over again!'
'Juice, Sellkirk, guys...where are you!?'
These are the unfortunate voice of straphangers as they plunge into infinite hell as pandemonium is finally here.
Unca Selkirk's safe and sound and locked in his cab. Have handles, will travel but it's gonna cost ya. :)
A strike for higher wages (or one that could be spun as for higher wages) at a time when other public employees are being laid off, tons of private workers are losing their jobs, and others are having their wages cut and 401Ks disappear would earn the TWU and its members the undying antipathy of everyone else in the city.
"Share the wealth or we'll (illegally) strike" might have worked in 2000, when there was wealth to share. As it is, you'll end up with a two week strike with no cave in, guarnatee it. NYC businesses are DYING for an excuse to lay employees off for two weeks to ave money. Just as well if someone else takes the blame.
My favorite is that the union is ALSO against a fare hike.
I suppose they'll be against a tax hike, too. Exactly WHERE do they think the money will come from?
-Hank
Why a TAX CUT of course! (sorry, couldn't resist, heh)
Money grows on trees...the very trees which are home to green monkies...the monkies we squeeze the miraculous oil from that keeps the Redbirds alive! So one of those 'save the fare' organizers gets ahold of me and tries to tell me how much more NYC subway commuters pay for their rides in comparison to other cities. Only cheaper short distance travel is packing six into a yellow cab with no traffic and witholding a tip. I have a longboard scooter! CI Peter
As a voter, I think I should take the long-term view and do what's best for the community.
If I were a transit worker, however, I think it would be my duty to look out for myself and my coworkers. I would negotiate the best way I knew how.
As a transit rider, I literally should not expect a free ride. If I don't want the driver to subsidize part of my ride by giving up medical benefits, then I need to accept higher taxes, higher fares, capital breakdown and long-term failure, or automated transit.
A late train gets the antipathy of the riding public. If you put nickel fare on the ballot at the cost of a 50% pay cut to TA workers it would pass in a second (this community excepted).
Then of course, you've got your Golisanos who would offer the TA PAYING us to ride the trains with prisoners operating. :)
I WAS THERE in complete CI Inspection uniform with the 'Blood of the Redbirds' upon me. This was RALLY to display unison and sorrily, in my not so humble opinion, November 5th politicking. NYPD was there in full force, complete with horse units, motorcycle units, fully equipped riot control officers and many more officers from all kinds of units the public never sees. NYPD could not asked for a more civil LARGE demonstration....what THEY got was Boquoo overtime! I appreciate the position of 'subway-buff' and agree....my shop steward and 239ths crew would have given me the business for not attending.
As for traffic delays, NOT ONE TA EMPLOYEE held up traffic...NYPD specifically created lanes for travel and controlled intersections where sidewalk passage was too narrow. Did skip out on the march with my partner to go to MTA Museum Annex and giftstore...then went by myself to the 40th and 3rd RALLY site. As always, 'politickers' and 'commune-ists' sneak their way into the crowd. I give credit to the Rooskies...they have a decent schedule of appearance at such events and avoid the Socialist instigators. CI Peter
I watched the same news report; that was a RALLY, not a strike. (A strike wouldn't have happened until December 15, and it would been the main story rather than an afterthought.)
Could be some kind of protest
It was a rally, show of unity, and NOT the "S" word. The contract does nto expirte until 12/15/02 so the system is still running at least while we have a contract.
Note: I cannot take a position pro or con on what could happen after 12/15 due to the Taylor Law. All I'll say is that since I am a public employee/ civil servant, I have to put my customers first. Yes- I do have back burner concerns about what could happen in an unknown date or time after 12/15/02 but I must carry on.
To paraphrase Robert Heinlein "The Road (Subway and bus) must Roll." This was paraphrased from his story "The Roads Must Roll" about a job action by employees of moving highways.The story can be foudn in his "Tha Past Through Tomorrow" his "Future History" Series.
Sure, I'd like a raise and other benefits but I did not go to work for Transit to get rich.
The Taylor Law does not prohibit rallkes such as the one held yesterday (which I did not attend due to other committments.)
Well, the buses didn't roll, as the demonstrators blocked the roads.
Arti
Another reason I dont attend such events. As a public servant I am held to a higher standard and interfering with customers (those riding or wanting to ride the bus) is not good PR.
One factor to consider -- there really isn't a good place in NYC to hold a rally like that. It seems undemocratic. I thought City Hall Park would have been a good place, but they rehabbed it differently.
Perhaps they could clear the partitions out of Foley Square (moving all the benches out to the sides and installing pavers throughout the center), install a stage, and have that be the official location of political protests, rallies and meetings. People could get there by subway.
Surprisingly, 44th and Vanderbuilt is a good place for a rally. Access by all bus, subway and railroad lines is easy. The street is not a crosstown thoroughfare, does not hold traffic up, has a nice view of the former Pan-Am building and the only problem is maintaining a steady hover above the site with rotor-operated aircraft. CI Peter
IMO the whole idea of the event was to block traffic. There were no speeches, just a gang yelling TWU.
Arti
If that was the only goal, a bridge would have been the site of the protest.
Wouldn't get the same exposure.
Arti
Messing with the Brooklyn Bridge traffic always gets exposure. The Cabbies and Rev Al can get on TV with 100 guys.
Next time cancelling a parade permit at the last minute minute might not be an idea on the table for the police.
As soemone who's sat with Unca Al Sharpton in the CAPITOL and shot the sheet with him, only to discover that Unca Al is ONE SHARP PHUCK, and has one HELL of a sense of humor, especially with others who grooved on the sidewalk act with him, and got "da rap" as to the mechanics of the game (Selkirk REALLY likes Al Sharpton, because Unca Al opened up to me personally, and I got to know the *real* Al and I *like* him since we came to terms and ENJOYED each other) ... TWU could *USE* Unca Al's talents ...
Unca AL *KNOWS* how to put on a dog and pony show and the dumbass PRESS shows UP for an Unca Al show ... SURPRISE! Unca Al don't give a rat's butt what you THINK of Unca AL, as long as you SHOW UP! :)
Like I said, as an old "guerilla sidealk act" practitioner myself, Unca AL draws a crowd. Getting the message out in "sound byte land" requires a floorshow with lights and dancers. Unca AL knows how to make them photogs SHOW UP. That's his game. And it works! Heh. Like I said, *LOVE* Unca AL because he knows how to be a PLAYER. Moo. Heh.
TWU could USE some talent. Unca Al's a CLASS New York Act. ;)
There were enough people that the volume makes them reroute stuff not that people are lying in front of buses.
As a public servant you do not lose your right to assemble.
No, there were groups roving around and sysematically blocking busy intersections at rush hour.
Arti
Strike??
Then who ran my train home yesterday??
Oh no!! BMTMAN will be at the controls!!
Saints preserve us!!!:)
Heh. Wasn't BMTman ... didja notice some SPEED on the stretch? :)
I knew it was you when the train keyed by a signal...
Heh. I have an alibi. :)
Were you on 1689 when Doug was running it? You would have thought Luciano himself was at the controls.:)
Of COURSE I was there ... I was the diversion, the one Unca Dougies was showing off for, did his Groucho with the ceegar and ... chow. :)
Who knows what car numbers that the 142's on the 3 will begin with. I know the 142s on the 5 are almost complete and am curious. also lately I have been seeing 142s stored at the 137th street yard. I wonder if those are future 3 cars or there just for storage. I saw them deliver 7081-7085 yesterday. They are getting close to the 7100's.
Thank you very much
Frankie Perez
Who knows what car numbers that the 142's on the 3 will begin with. I know the 142s on the 5 are almost complete and am curious. also lately I have been seeing 142s stored at the 137th street yard. I wonder if those are future 3 cars or there just for storage. I saw them deliver 7081-7085 yesterday. They are getting close to the 7100's.
Thank you very much
Frankie Perez
Truth is, it appears the new car numbers for the 3 will be 1301-1625!!
Assuming the planned allocation is possible in the end, the R-142 assignments appear likely to be 6301-6670 (2), 6671-7040 (5), 7041-7210 and 7731-7850 (4).
Whether things work out this way is still up in the air. Present assignments are 6301-6700 to 2 and everything else on the 5. I doubt you'll see the BBDs get to the 4 until at least Spring 2003.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Wait, so it is official that the 4 will be getting Bombardier R142s and that its R62s will be transferred to the 3?
I guess that would make sense. Since they put several sets of R142As on the 4, they might as well make the whole line R142s. It wouldn't make sense to upgrade Jerome Yard for only a few R142A trains. Also, it lets the soon-to-be-oldest IRT a chance to rest up during the late nights when the 3 is not in service. Guess that new car brochure was right when it said the new cars (R142/As and 143s) will be on the L, M, 2, 4, 5 and 6.
no all Bombardier Cars will stack up on the 2 and 5. the 4 will get a few of the left over of the Kawasaki Cars. there are only a few redbirds on that line that needs replacement
Nothing's written in stone yet. That's why I asked, maybe someone else is in the know about the assignments for the 3 and 4 lines once all R142/142As are delivered.
I've seen Kawasaki's on the 4, they have high 7600 series #s.
I didn't know the order was let out all the way to 7850, that's news.
wayne
Really???? The # 3 is suppose to have R142's.
Maybe whoever does the IRT car assignments changed their minds about that.
Those 142's that were stored at 137 St yard were only there during the month long G.O. that had the 2 and 5 ending at 149 St/GC and shuttle service from E180 St to 241St and Dyre Av respectively. Shuttle buses replaced service from 149/GC- E180 St during that time.
exactly
Around 3:30 this afternoon, a NB 3 train went BIE at Rogers Junction, blocking the local track as well as all access off the Nostrand branch. I hung out at Franklin, watching the parade of 3's and 4's (and one 5) on the express track, until about 4:00, when the culprit, lead car 1950, finally arrived on the local track, with passengers appearing very glad to have made it out of the tunnel. One SB 2 went to Utica; I don't know what happened to the other 2's and 5's, but most of them weren't making it as far as Franklin.
Then around 5:00, something happened to a NB train at Wall on the 2/3. One 2 was sent up the East Side before the problem was solved. I was on the first 2 back on the West Side and everything appeared normal, if a bit sluggish approaching Wall.
"...something happened to a NB train at Wall on the 2/3. One 2 was sent up the East Side before the problem was solved."
What exact route would a 2 or 3 train at Wall Street (at William) follow to be sent up the East Side?
I was at Nevins. One 2 train was switched to the express track. I don't know what happened with the trains that had already passed Nevins -- they probably just clumped up behind the disabled train. I doubt they were carried out of the station and two blocks west -- the staircases are too narrow.
(Incidentally, after the 2 train went through on the express track, a light train signed as a 3 went up the local track. Only afterwards did the announcement come through that the problem was solved.)
David,
It didn't die, just went on life support.
You must admit, that 3 train picked a really rude spot to go BIE. Better there than over Nevins interlocking, I suppose.
FOr anyone interested the episode is on right now on TBS.
It's not the one I was thinking of (when they all ride the subway), it was the one with only a few scenes (and I think Al Roker) at the end. Not the "classic" one. Sorry.
That would be the "Cigar Store Indian"
Theat's the one. When it first came on I thought it was the other one.
If you live on Long Is. and get cable there is a story repeated hourly on News 12 (Long Island's version of NY1) with video footage of the first M-7 train on the Long Beach Branch.
I can't wait until they start using the M-7's in regular service. I saw one up close the other day at Penn Station on track 20 and was very impressed. The seats look similar to those on the C-3's except they are 3-2 instead of 2-2 and the colors were different. I imagine they won't be quite as comfortable or roomy as the seats on the C-3's since they're obviously narrower.
Although there have always been complaints about the M-1/3's, especially in the earlier years, I, for one, will be sad to see them go. I don't know how may of you can remember the Electric rolling stock of the LIRR prior to the M-1 introduction about 1970, but it was as bad, if not worse, than the diesels recently replaced by the C-3's.
Bob, I hate to disagree with you but regarding the pre M-1 MU's I have to. I loved the pre war cars which were the only ones that ran on the Brooklyn lines. They had the sounds of the pre-war subway cars. I remember as a kid going to Hempstead Station and there were always a few cars just sitting there and the sounds of the compressors going on and off sounded just like the compressors of the R-9 and the trolleys at Branford. They also had the same acceleration groans as the pre-war subways. You never had to sit backwards, the seats were reversible, and you could always turn a seat to face another which was always done for rush hour card games.
I guess in those days Hempstead was predominately a Brooklyn line (now it mostly goes to Penn) because I don't ever recall too many post war MU's like the ones that were converted to the recently retired diesel coaches or the double deckers. I remember those cars mostly on the Babylon Branch. There was always a bunch layed up in Freeport just west of the Meadowbrook Pkway. The only time I ever recall riding a double decker on the Hempstead Branch was on the Worlds Fair Special which went from Hempstead to Woodside then reversed direction onto the Port Washington Branch to the fair. Of course because of that move you did have to sit backwards a bit.
I also have to admit I liked the diesel trains too. As a kid I used to ride my bike to Westbury Station (which was only diesel at that time) during rush hour for the scary experiance to be on the platform when a fast express came through. Westbury had low platforms then which made the expresses seem even bigger and scarier because the trucks were at eye level as they sped through. I also remember there was no rhyme or reason to the types of cars on the diesels. Whether they did or didn't it seemed like they made the train up at random. Other great things about the diesels: They open platform in the rear, the manual doors on the platforms that you could keep open while riding there, and of course riding on the first car platform behind the locomotive.
The problem with the M-1's and M-3's: No diversity. They were all the same. Three decades of exactly the same trains. Then to add insult to injury they made the interiors of the diesel coaches to resemble the M1-3's.
Riding the LIRR is always an adventure.
When Irde the Hempstead line between 1998-2001 all Hempstead trains went to Brooklyn. I guess that changed very recently.
There have always (1960's as I can personally verify) been several rush hour AM trains to Penn from Hempstead and PM trains to Hempstead from. There are even a couple of direct trains each way for the reverse commute.
The Hempstead and Far Rockaway lines are the two dedicated off-peak Brooklyn lines. Both lines have some direct service from Penn during the peak periods. Similarly, the Penn dedicated off-peak lines (Babylon, Huntington, Long Beach, Ronkonkoma) have some Brooklyn service during the peak hours.
About 6 or 7 years ago, Hempstead to Penn was the norm on weekends but that didn't last more than a year.
CG
Riding the LIRR is always an adventure.
When I rode the Hempstead line between 1998-2001 all Hempstead trains went to Brooklyn. I guess that changed very recently.
No, All off peak trains still go to and from Brooklyn.
Some peak trains go in and out of Penn.
I also have to admit I liked the diesel trains too. As a kid I used to ride my bike to Westbury Station (which was only diesel at that time) during rush hour for the scary experiance to be on the platform when a fast express came through. Westbury had low platforms then which made the expresses seem even bigger and scarier because the trucks were at eye level as they sped through.
I used to do that in the 80's. I remember being at the Oakdale platform one Sunday evening and a train started coming through. It was one of the long, summer weekend Montauk trains with two GP38-2's one end and an MP15 on the other. It was one of the expresses, and that thing thundered through Oakdale that day. Between the three engines, the length, the speed of the train, and the low level platforms, you didn't know what was happening - scary indeed. And the GP38's were never quiet about it either.
Other great things about the diesels: They open platform in the rear, the manual doors on the platforms that you could keep open while riding there, and of course riding on the first car platform behind the locomotive.
Even though they weren't exactly "open platforms", I miss the most recent diesel coaches, and being able to ride in the vestibule of the last car. At least my generation had that, the kids now will never get a chance with any sort of "open" vestibule. There was nothing better than riding in the last vestibule of an express Montauk train speeding down the mainline in Nassau.
The problem with the M-1's and M-3's: No diversity. They were all the same. Three decades of exactly the same trains. Then to add insult to injury they made the interiors of the diesel coaches to resemble the M1-3's.
And that's the problem all the trains have now, including the diesels. Don't get me wrong, I find the new C1's very comfortable, but we lost something with them. My dislike of the new DM/DE30's is not so much that I think they are so bad (gulp), but more so that they all look the same. The old diesels all had character. When a train went through, you could say, "Oh, that's 605." or "That's 171." And even now an image of what the engine looked like still pops in my head. Each engine had it's own character. Unfortunately now, all the trains look the same.
Another thing about the new tri-level C-1's. You don't hear any train noises such as the clanging at the RR crossings. The cars seem to be so soundproof. Even in the first car behind the engine you don't even hear the whistle.
Another thing about the new tri-level C-1's. You don't hear any train noises such as the clanging at the RR crossings. The cars seem to be so soundproof. Even in the first car behind the engine you don't even hear the whistle.
Very true. In addition, when not on the train......I live about a half mile from the LIRR Montauk Branch, and used to love to hear the trains go by. I am far enough away for it not to be annoying, but close enough that I could hear it. The eastbounds are still okay, but I can't hear the westbounds to well anymore because they have that M1 type horn that sounds at the grade crossing. With the old diesels it was almost musical, and I could almost make out if it was an F or a MP15, or a GP38-2.
I live in East Meadow & always heard the diesel horns, which I always assumed were from the School Street Crossing just E/O Westbury and a few others as they usually came in succession. We heard 'em a lot when the Main Line was All diesel but enough until a few years ago when the tri levels were toned down after all the complaints. Now we very rarely hear any whistle at all and if I do hear one occasionally I assume its a NY & Atlantic engine. (or a LIRR work train)
I could imagine what it sounded like in my neighborhood (not that there really was a neighborhood, only potato farms) when there was still a crossing at Merrick Av on the old Central Branch.
I don't know how may of you can remember the Electric rolling stock of the LIRR prior to the M-1 introduction about 1970, but it was as bad, if not worse, than the diesels recently replaced by the C-3's.
Wow, that's saying a lot. They must've been in bad shape. I loved the old diesels and coaches dearly, but wow, were they beat! WHat was a railfan's dream, was a commuter's nightmare! I do like the new C1's though(although hate the DM/DE30's). The bi-levels are really comfortable, and the passengers deserve that after all the years of having to but up with the old diesel coaches. I really miss them though, I used to love to stand in the vestibules (especially on the Montauk Branch trains when the doors would stay open after Bay Shore). Or better yet - the last vestibule of one of them without an engine on the back (although it was kind of nice even with the engine on back - even if loud).
If you don't have News 12.. here is the link http://www.news12.com/CDA/Articles/View/0,6264,5-5-49758-17,00.html
There is a video to it
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for posting that.
So Long Beach, Hempstead and Ronkonkoma first, eh? I guess most Mineola and Huntington commuters are safe for now with their trusty M1's...:0)
I don't really usually forward emails or post them unless they are hilariously funny but since there are a lot of Bklyn old timers on SubTalk I thought they might appreciate this:
You are from Brooklyn if you;
1.Went to Saturday matinees at the Oriental, Kingsway, Avalon, Rugby, or Marlboro theaters.
2. Know what the F.W.I.L. on the Lundy's Restaurant in "The Bay" stands for (It's the brothers, Frederick, William, Irving and Louis).
3. Remember submarine race watching at Plum Beach. Heck, you even know where Plum Beach is.
4. Played Hit The Penny.
5. Hung out on Friday nights at Dubrow's or Famous.
6. Know, or at least your hips do, what a Charlotte Russe is.
7. Think going "away to college" means NYU.
8. Went to Murray the K rock concerts at the Brooklyn Fox or the Brooklyn Paramount.
9. Shopped on Fulton Street before the mall and all the dreck.
10. Ate at Chock Full O' Nuts Coffee Shops. (remember the date nut bread?)
11. Bought bobka at the original Ebingers on Flatbush Avenue.
12. Bought Ebinger's Black-Out Cake (and didn't count the calories)
13. Walked along the Coney Island Boardwalk
14. Remember Coney Island Tuesday night fireworks sponsored by Shaefer Beer.
15. Bought pickles out of a barrel from a guy on 86th Street.
16. Can name all the Brooklyn High Schools and which PASL divisions they were in. Just try and do that today!
17. Played at Faber's Fascination and Skeeball - 'nuff said.
18. Remember a time when the Greeks didn't own all the diners and the Koreans didn't own all the dry cleaners and fruit stands.
19. Know that NBC's main production studio is on Avenue M.
20. Thought "Buddy's Fairyland Kiddie Park" was a major amusement park.
21. Don't speak with an accent - everybody else does!
22. Went to a Bar Mitzvah at the Colonial Mansion.
23. Had a prom date at the Club Elegante.
24. Swear that Grabstein's Deli had the l-e-a-n-e-s-t pastrami.
25. Played stoop ball
26. Drove over the Marine Park Bridge for a 10 cent toll (but it never opened in the middle when you were on it).
27. Know who the neighborhood wise guy was, but you'd never tell the cops.
28. Now Brooklyn's where all your good relatives are from.
29. Remember Bohack's.
30. Know what E.J.Korvettes stands for (11 Jewish Korean Veterans)
31. Owned a pair of pumps from Miles or National's
32. Waited for the Good Humor guy to come around your block (and hated Bungalow Bar).
33. And you waited for the rides on a truck to come to your neighborhood for 10 cents a ride.
AND the most important reason that you are a Brooklynite, or at least have the soul of one, is:
34. You're still angry that the Dodgers left!!!
Well, the shoe fits, so I guess that means that I'm from Brooklyn (but I already knew that :-) ).
-- Ed Sachs
A great list, but isn't #16 P.S.A.L.?
You are from Brooklyn if you;
35) went to Coney island in the summer to swim in a pool or the ocean. (There were lots of pools, now there are none)
36) lived in Flatbush and watched the Brooklyn Day parade on Ocean Ave. (I marched in that parade in my Cub Scout uniform with other Cub Scouts)
37) went to the top of Brooklyn's only skyscraper, The Williamsburg Savings Bank.
There's got to be more.
Bill "Newkirk"
I *loved* that ... even if I'm from the Bronx. I'm sure everyone's already seen "You know you're from upstate if ..." and "You know you're from the BRONX if ..." ... equally true in their own ways. :)
How about this. As a Brooklyn boy whose family never ventured to the north country (Bronx)because we had no family or friends there, a couple of memories do exist.
A couple of occasions, my family and I went to Freedomland, a mini Disneyland in the northeast Bronx. Fond memories of that place before it went belly up due to the New York World's Fair in Flushing Meadow. There may have been one trip by subway because I remember we transferred to a bus that was a GM old look. I remember the name Gun Hill Road, but not sure if it had anything to do with the bus or not.
Another memory was going to a baseball game at the original Yankee Stadium. I remember dingy incandescent lit corridors and ramps. We didn't see the Yanks, but there was a baseball game with two local teams. One team was the Journal-Americans, not sure what the other was. It was a night game. Maybe it had something to do with the Post Office. My father was a parcel post clerk at Brooklyn's Times Plaza station. My uncle, a letter carrier at Brooklyn's Flatbush station, was a Yankee fan. Maybe that was why we were there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Everyone went to FreedomLand. Do an internet search and you'll come up with some wonderous sites. CI Peter
Here's a great Freedomland site:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robfriedman/
Freedomland, current Co-op chitty ... you'll get a kick out of THIS then:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robfriedman/
And yeah, Gunhill Road is big stuff in da north Bronx ... 3rd avenue El used to run along it too ...
Kevin, on my one and only trip to Freedomland as a kid I was lucky to have had my dad bring his movie camera with him and so we have a few minutes of footage (converted to video) of our trip there, complete with the hourly scheduled Chicago Fire, a replica of the first RH Macy's, and the horsecars!
Wow ... while I *lived* in the Bronx, only went out there ONCE - pops spent the remaining years complaining about what a RIPOFF the place was. Looking back on it all these years later, the place wasn't as great as we might remember but I'll never forget it. And whenever I'm in the mood to go BACK and visit Freedomland, a good amount of it is still there at Great Escape/Splashwater Kingdom in Lake George. :)
Did any of you guys ever go to Palisades Amusement Park? We went there a few times in 1967-68 before it closed. That was a great place. They put in a monorail around 1969, but by then my father was out of town so much on business we never went back there.
Back then it seemed like in school you talked about either going to Palisades or Coney Island and with all my relatives living in Bklyn (I lived in Nassau County) I always went to Coney Island. I do wish I went to Palasades though so I'd be able to reminisce with Cousin Brucie on CBS-FM about it.
Now I take my 6 yr old son mostly to Adventureland on Rt 110. We do however go to the Coney Is Aquarium a lot and usually go on some rides afterward, including the Wonder Wheel. And we occasionally stop at Rye Playland on the way back from Branford.
>>> Did any of you guys ever go to Palisades Amusement Park <<<
Three things still stand out in my mind after fifty years; the petting zoo (with farm animals), the bobsled ride and the pool with a beach and artificial waves. Those were things I did not find at Coney Island.
Tom
At Coney Island you don't have a petting zoo or a bobsled ride, but there's a pool with a beach and natural waves.
And I heard the pool there is the second largest in the WORLD, and it extends all the way down to FLORIDA and beyond. :-)
IIRC Palisades had a salt-water pool. Never swam in it, though.
Does the Plum Beach pull-off and parking lot still exist?
Sure does. It's been expanded some as well.
Some things do stay the same!
As long as there's skee-balls, there'll always be a Bwookwyn. :)
The one piece of serious hardware that has survived all economic depressions is the Skee-Ball machine. It has gone through at least four major revisions....Skee-Ball TOO! is totally electronic save the ball release solenoid and mechanical coin acceptor. I miss the ones I played as a child...dime a game...electromechanical flipping page score display. Every arcade eventually got a Williams electromech
'Pinball Wizard' pinball. If I only knew what this junk would be worth today...but I would not have become a Car Inspector. CI Peter
You DO realize that by accepting the wooden ball into your life, you've gone over to the dark side in DCE. :)
Composite wooden balls have been replaced by giant plastic golf balls...wrong color is not acknowledged by the optical sensors. I accept the wooden ball and go over to the Dark Side of DCE....this is 'Train Dude Land.' Tickets read 'one point.' CI Peter
>>Skee-Ball TOO! is totally electronic save the ball release solenoid and mechanical coin acceptor. I miss the ones I played as a child...dime a game...electromechanical flipping page score display.<<
CI Peter,
There is one arcade that has the original mechanical score display in Coney Island. Don't know if it's closed for the winter. Take (W) train to Stillwell and find out. I saw them there this summer.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have to take incident with #30
Also, its nice to know there are still people who know the correct spelling of Plum Beach.
How about:
Felt Brooklyn wasn't Brooklyn without the BMT standards and Triplexes.
And Peter Witts and PCCs or rubber tired vehicles on Kings Highway
and Meeker/Marcy or gate cars on Myrtle Avenue? Also the Gas Tanks.
;-) Sparky
I thought Kings Highway never had trolley service.
You know you're from Brooklyn if you live in a place where "Old Timers" who do not live in Brooklyn keep writing in and saying things were better when you weren't there.
Acutally, I guess I'm from Yonkers. You know you're from Yonkers when there is a street named after you there. It true, it's a cul-de-sac off Palmer Rd. somewhere. My Grandfather was working in the Yonkers Building Department when a builder came in with a plat and asked if anyone could think of a name for the street. It was just after I was born, the first grandchild.
near the queensborough station? ! wow look at those classics here !!
wow those things had railfan windows lol !! :-) Just playin round with ya Salaam.
i wish i was there right now
Methinks this is NOT QueensBoro Plaza, the two levels of end but turn away which isnt the case a QP.
But I do. This IS Queensborough Plaza looking south east from the northern side of the plaza. Straight ahead is Sunnyside yard. The Q's are turning in toward and from Astoria. The Queensborough Bridge trolley is just about to head through the plaza over the bridge towards Manhattan.
Great Photo!!
I was thinking the same thing until I looked at the 3rd train turning. The turn going to Ditmars has only 2 tracks and I see 3 trains.
The train at the top of the picture is going towards Ditmars (don't forget that the line was IRT at the time)
The train in the middle of the picture is approaching QBP from the Flushing line.
The Q cars are heading towards Corona.
Great picture. I wonder where he found it?
AND that's a Queensboro Bridge trolley at street level.
In the picture it looks like all 3 trains are coming from Ditmars. The one in the background looks like it's not turning at all.
No matter how many times I look at that picture I don't see that.
Douce - have you had your depth perception tested recently?
No matter how many times I look at that picture I don't see that.
Douce - have you had your depth perception tested recently?
I see it too. It looks like the first three cars of the train in the top left is a seperate train and going straight. Then three cars on the "middle" train. And three cars on the bottom train. Look again, I saw it right away after DOuce mentioned it.
The picture looks flat to me. But do you see 3 trains in the picture?
Yes,
I see 3 sets of trains in the picture.
At that time, How many tracks were going toward Ditmars?
>>> At that time, How many tracks were going toward Ditmars?
Four, two from the BMT side of QBP, and two from the IRT side.
Tom
So at the turn onto Northern Blvd toward Ditmars there are 4 tracks?
>>> So at the turn onto Northern Blvd toward Ditmars there are 4 tracks? <<<
Not now, but there were when QPB was an eight track station. Half the station is gone, and half the tracks went with it.
Tom
I meant were.
I guess at one time there were 3 maybe 4 tracks that made the curve onto Northern Blvd on the way to Ditmars. That would explain the 3 trains on that curve.
["(don't forget that the line was IRT at the time)"]
If I'm not mistaken both the Flushing Line and the Astoria Line were BOTH IRT & BMT at the time, a sort of dual operation. QBP had 2 extra tracks at the time (which may explain why some of the posters are a little confused about the pictures) and had separate fare controls for each company. The other stations on both the Flushing line and the Astoria Line divided their receipts between the two companies. The Q cars only travelled in Queens with a transfer from the BMT Bway subway at QB Plaza while the 2nd Av El and the trains from the Steinway Tunnel came from Manhattan.
There was a long thread on SubTalk a while ago about the arrangement.
>>> The train in the middle of the picture is approaching QBP from the Flushing line.
The Q cars are heading towards Corona. <<<
All three trains pictured are traveling between QBP and Astoria. All three trains pictured consist of Q cars.
Tom
***NICE*** ***STUFF*** ! Thank ya! :)
God, that's beautiful. *Sniff*
Nothing more but vintage! *Sigh* Queensboro is only a shadow of what it used to be. Now it's just an ugly modernized shell, painted PINK of all things. Why pink!?
Maybe it was that gay Manhattanite that moved to Astoria so as to be listed in the Queens directory. :)
That structure was painted RED. A great color for an elevated structure. The red has since faded to pink. Don't they understand that red paint fades faster than others ? Something to do with the sun's ultraviolet rays.
Bill "Newkirk"
Geez ... you'd ruin a wet dream. Do I *have* to show off that picture of you and CI Peter? Moo. :)
Yeah, that'd make sense. When I lived in da Bronx, we either got this dumbass beige structure paint, or worse, the same fricken fracken mint green that they painted the inside of IRT tuna cans with. Gack. And folks wonder why I *loved* the Arnines. Heh. Although "pink" could be a political statement, you were around for that whole "think pink" era, no? Hmm.
I think, therefore I am.
I’m pink, therefore I’m Spam!
I do not like pink els and spam, I do not like them, Spam I yam. :)
Chances are you don't like pink spam as well.
Nor the electronic kind. When you live upstate, you no longer have to eat beaks and hooves. :)
You mean you would not, could not, should not, etc?:)
I think this is a spam thread.
thread or spread?
Ha ha...funny. I meant thread.
If anyone can answer, why did people come up to use the word 'Spam' to be synomynous for all of the junk email we get. I love the taste of Spam.
Oh yeah ... forgot the ...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol!!!!!!!!!!
Really? I think they should paint it, using one of the color that was used to primarily paint the rest of the El on Roosevelt Avenue. Green.
No offense, but even though I love the pre-war cars, the Q cars were kind of ugly, especially after they were converted from gate cars and the doors added.
This copyrighted photo was posted without permission by Dave’s Railpix. In other words, Dave took the photo he obtained from another party, and posted it without inquiring as to who took the picture and held the copyright. To put it bluntly, he stole it. Under U.S. Copyright Law, any photo taken of anything is automatically copyrighted to the photographer the moment the photo is taken. And, the copyright is retained for 75 years after the person’s death. This photo was taken by Robert J. Wasche, a noted transportation photographer, who is alive, well and justifiably pissed. I have both the negative and copyright rights. Dave has posted between 75-100 photos taken by either Mr. Wasche or myself. A few years ago, I was informed by other railfans that Dave was doing this, and contacted him; he promised to remove all pictures taken by Mr. Wasche and me. He did not keep his promise, and, in my opinion, removed none of the stolen photographs. I have recently made printouts of my photos taken from his site, which proves he was a liar. About two weeks ago, I had another row with him. He again promised to remove our photos. His excuse was that it wasn’t his responsibility to find out where the photos came from. He also said that I should list all of our photos if we wanted them removed. If this thief thinks I’m going to take weeks looking through the thousands of slow-downloading pictures on his site to find ours, he’s sadly mistaken. My wife, who is unable to hold an outside job because of health problems and prints these high quality photos, is obviously as upset as Mr. Wasche and me over Dave’s unbridled thievery. In my opinion, this is not the type of individual that we want in this hobby.
>>> near the queensborough station? <<<
You're a bit off on your identification as the #7 line. Those are Astoria bound Q cars. The two nearest tracks are going to the now amputated BMT north side of Queensboro Plaza, the one in the back is going to the IRT south side. The picture is circa 1948.
Tom
You're 100% correct about the Q cars. The photo has to be in 1948 or no later than Oct. 1949, which is when the BMT north side closed and the BMT wooden el car shuttles to/from Astoria and Flushing ended. The Queensboro Bridge trolley on the street is a second hand car from New Bedford, Mass that came to NY around 1948-49 and finished its life when the QBB trolley stopped running in April 1957.
And, except for the Queensboro Bridge trolley, everything is a Q!!!!
Here's another, of a Triplex on the now gone northern half. If you look carefully, you'll see the workers preparing the obviously long unused 2nd Ave track and platform for eventual use by BMT trains. I'd say this pic dates to 1948/9:
This isn't posted on the TA website, but according to signs in stations, tonight is the second night of a three-night late night GO on the 2: northbound trains run from Flatbush to Atlantic as normal, then via the 4 to Wall, then nonstop through the South Ferry outer loop to Chambers, and as usual from Chambers to the Bronx. Southbound service is normal. This should look familiar.
Oh boy! Quick ma, bring the kids! :) Seriously, the first time I ever rode this G.O., it was totally by accident, and you can bet your britches that I was REALLY SURPRISED when the T/O walked out of the cab, started having dinner, and then train started going BACKWARDS!!! I eventually regained my composure and was able to figure out what was going on. Wow, what a ride.
--Brian
I am glad NYC Transit is rehabbing stations and making ADA improvements.
It does impress me (both good and bad ways) that one station (like the 72nd Street project, at $59 million),can cost more than the entire annual operating budget of the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority (at $40 million), whose puny operation I will be dependent on until I get a new driver license and a second car (my wife drives a Ford Focus wagon).
Maybe, as one Suhbtalk poster suggested, I could find a way to have her work "virtually;" (guess not).
Getting depressed again...
Two words, bro ... BVE SIM ... best subway ride you can get outside sector R. :)
Sigh...
Seriously, it's helped keep ME sane lately although Branford was the biggie stain in the pants. :)
About to leave for the night, but if you've got a PeeCee with a decent video card that can do 3D (Direct3D needed) and better than 266 Mhz worth of CPU speed, send me an email and if you don't already HAVE BVE, I can point you to where to get it and the NYCTA routes and fix that jones for y'all when I get back in here ... may not be 1689 at Branford, but it's not all that far off from the real thing. MSTS is a joke.
My current PC is a Hewlett-Packard Pavilion Pentium-based desktop, at 800 MhZ clock speed, running Windows XP, with 384MB RAM and a 40 GB hard drive. My video card is pretty decent, but now also at least 2 years old.
If all else fails, I still write MTA several times a year regarding their Capital Plan, service pplan issues, ideas I want to bounce off them, etc. I always get a thoughtful reply (and they've ven adopted a couple)...
Aw GEEZ ... you're *SO* ready to go to BVE with what you have then. Where it gets a bit gnarly is folks who have a 233 MHZ with a plain old VGA card ... go HERE ...
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Click on "Get BVE" and across the top of the right hand frame are explicit directions on how to collect what you need. You'll also need to make sure "DirectX" is already installed (for 3D cab graphics) and you can get that HERE:
http://www.microsoft.com/directx
But of course, the above is mentioned on the "troubleshooting" page should it not work when you just go to install it.
The FLUSHING LINE can be gotten here to tide you over:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/alstoer1/bve.htm
and there's more. Robert Marerro went over to the dark side (MSTS) but I can send you copies of the files if you can't find them yourself searching for "BVE NYCTA" on google ...
Happy motoring, don't hit the ball. Nighty! :)
You are comparing capital cost of one thing with the annual running cost of another. Having said that, $59 million does seem a hell of a lot to rehab just one station! I must go and check out 72nd St when I'm next in NYC - at that price it ought to be palatial.
I checked on the capital cost of the Docklands Light Railway in London, which was famously built at minimum expense. The capital cost of the original section (which had 16 stations, built new, not rehabbed) was £77 million, about $105 million - and that included 11 LRVs themselves, the track, the maintenance yard, everything.
Of course, this cutprice construction could be said to have been a mistake, since the passenger traffic soon overwhelmed these small facilities and all the stations had to be extended, new lines added, more LRVs bought, etc. But the original was good value.
Indeed it was a good value - and still is.
These things land in your path. I missed NYC for 49 years, by mistake. Spent five of them in rural Mississippi. I tried to talk a friend from London out of taking a bus across Mississippi, but Europeans will try public transit anywhere.
Hang tight. With what I hear about the price of oil this winter, KC may have a well-funded transit system faster than we think.
Thanks for the encouragement.
I had a friend once who spent two years in the Air Force at Keesler AFB. He didn't think it was too bad...
From the same paper, Tweed Building rehab cost $100M and original construction cost was $178M in current dollars.
Arti
It was supposed to have been a public building, but instead they wasted it as the headquarters of the Department of Juvenile Enslavement.
ANother note from the archives: The last of the Red R-36's were delivered on July 22,1964 and placed in service on August 25.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The rosters on this site, the JoeKorner, and elsewhere show that the R-9 order was split between Pressed Steel and Pullman-Standard, but the builder's plate on 1689 says ACF. Is the roster in error, was ACF somehow affiliated with Pullman in 1940, or was the plate a carryover from previous ACF-built contracts (like the "TMC" builder's plates on Nova RT--- whoops, wrong board again)?
ACF was the THIRD contractor for Arnines, not affiliated with either. I don't have any specifics on whose was which, but I do remember the ACF cars as being in MUCH better shape than either the Pullmans (I think those were the earlier cars) or the Pressed Steel ones. The ACF's were GE cars though - most of the old timers loved their Westinghouses. Strangely, I always breathed a sigh of relief when I walked onto an ACF car, just as I did at Branford. ACF was another reason for that big smile y'all saw. :)
And ACF is STILL in business:
http://www.acfindustries.com/acf_information/history.asp
1650-1701 built by ACF
1702-1802 built by PS
I show Pullman built R-1/9 cars as being the following:
R-6-2 1150-1299
R-7 1475-1499
R-7A 1500-1599
Looks like #1689 is GE, as evidenced by the photos of her interior showing the pointy-nosed GE fans with their wavy blades, like those of my long-lost and beloved R-6-2.
wayne
And she's in GREAT SHAPE too ... :)
I'll second that.
Sounds as if both A-440 1233 and Ralph's 1277 were Pullman cars.
They were. All the R-6-2s were.
wayne
RIPTA: The R-9 order was split between ACF and Pressed Steel. The R-7A order was split between Pullman Std and ACF as was the R-7 order.
Only the R-6 order was split between all three companies. 1689 is an ACF car.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Today I took the 6:35PM New Haven Train leaving from track 23. First car where I always am was 8934. Train left without incedent, except for door indication take was fixed because someone put in a key when he/she wasn't supposed to (10 sec.). About after 50 seconds of going through the various switches and etc. The train ATC (whiiiii) went off and the train dumped its breakes (phsss). The train was in restricted (15<) which is normal in GCT, but he was crawling at 6 mph when this happened he always had green/red aspect during the whole time. Engineer recharged, took 1 minute to do this. Train moved 15 feet, ATC and phssssss, took 5 minutes to recharge. Recharged moved 30' and phsssssss, no ATC alarm. Recharged, moved 20' phssssss, no ATC alarm from this point on. This happened about 13 times. Everytime moving under 50'. Now we are on the track that is the local going north and are 2 switch ahead merging in with us, first on the left the later on the right. Finally he gaveup and got permission change ends and trys to go back into GCT. Now hell breakes lose. He changes ends and the thing won't charge. Conductor who was in the NOW rear (north end) said this will take a long time, so sit down; over the PA. I was still in the north end (too lazy to move, and didn't want to upset'em, I've never seen such grumppy MNRR employes (they were REALLY PISSED!)). They finallly charged the car but it moved 4' since half of it breaks wouldn't relase (bruuuu, like a R-142A's breaks). They said they got technicians on the train over the PA but I couldn't verify that. Finaly they tryed to turn off ATC (ROTFLOL!). They turned off all the lights in the head 2 cars and they couldn't turn ATC off from my car-set. They had to do it from the next car-set nearest cab. Train still kept dumping breaks. but after 6 cycles of this, they finally turned ATC off but in the process they turned off all the cars (2 mins in complete darkness, no emergency lights). When the lights and blower came on the ATC issue was fixed. And train went into GCT fine. They had us switch trains and the Engineeer of the former train I was on was also the engineer of the new one. I heard afterwards that ATC went haywire and was causing the BIEs from the Engineer, talking to the Main Conductor. I won't tell you who they were but I did hear the name "Steve". Also if you want, remember that they will be there tomorrow (6:35PM Exp. to New Haven (stops at Stamford))! So ask'em!
Hey if this was Conrail they would have gone all the way to New Haven with no ATC and only radio as their indicator if there was a train ahead. Imagine 90+ MPH no ATC (no aspect, not even red)!
On the 6:35 PM express to New Haven, it was supposed to arive at 125th at 6:45M. Instaed it arrived at 7:25 PM. This caused residual delayes on all the NHRR Trains. Especially the New Cannen ones, no clue why though?
Also we got restricted approaching Woodlawn for 2 miles. And near the New Rochelle switches the New Train also Dumped it breaks but he recharged and contiuned. When the breaks stopped the train they sounded like R-142A's ones bruuuuuhhhh. And for a couple of seconds as the train accelerated I heard that noise. It dissapeared in 3-4 seconds.
Weird day. Huh?
If any Questions, ask! I was there!
If you know that train or what happened to it (car #8934 was one in the consist, lead car faceing north), please tell me!
I only snippits of what was said.
That ATC can go crazy sometimes. It happened to me on LIRR once, but after 2 times the crew just 'cut out' the ATC and we were on our way.
This has been going on I guess for almost a month now. There is a slow order in the Manhattan bound Steinway tube, where 7 trains go only 5-10mph. Looks like they are replacing the roadbed, ties, and 3rd rail in there, the track is still skeletonized. Causing alot of delays though, some Straphangers have been wondering why inbound 7's were backed up starting at QBP.
Maybe if straphangers had gotten on a train and walked up front, they might have had their ANSWER. Oh no, Mister Bill! You can't fix the tracks, it'll cause delays. Sheesh.
Even being in the middle of the train, you can see those work lights hung on the sides of the tunnel shining through the windows, like 6 in a strip.
But I guess most "straphangers" can't figure that out.
I assume they will be doing this work in phases to the whole Steinway tube, which is much needed, being the most antiquated river tube in the system.
Fixing is good while the money lasts. Means it'll be working properly soon and that sure beats no service owing to broken or shifted rails. In other cities, they'd shut down the line for repairs until completed, so maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I'd be grateful to just GET there. Then again, I'm a cheap date. :)
Then again, I'm a cheap date. :)
So your wife says :o>
Until next tmie...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, we both chose wisely. :)
>>>"Oh no, Mister Bill! You can't fix the tracks, it'll cause delays. Sheesh."<<<
ROFL, :-) ~ Sparky
Ah, you caught that one. :)
Tell me about it. Everyday I take the #7 at around 8am and a normal 20-25 minute commute takes me about 35-45 minutes from 52 St to 5th Ave. Yesterday I rode 9723 and the train crawled the whole entire way to 5th Ave and it came to a complete stop in and between stations about 5 times. Yes I know the Express crossovers will slow the trains down a tad as well.
#9723 7 Flushing Local
Tell me about it. Everyday I take the #7 at around 8am and a normal 20-25 minute commute takes me about 35-45 minutes from 52 St to 5th Ave. Yesterday I rode 9723 and the train crawled the whole entire way to 5th Ave and it came to a complete stop in and between stations about 5 times. Yes I know the Express crossovers will slow the trains down a tad as well.
#9723 7 Flushing Local
Well, you can't blame it on the Redbirds.:)